# Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?



## drdel (Mar 9, 2020)

Just wondered if anyone's activities have been impacted.

I must admit that at the moment we're trying to get to the truth behind the headlines. Its a virus that's obviously easily transmitted and can be deadly for some groups. As yet we've not changed our behaviour other than less handshaking. Our Club has also sent out advice and installed hand cleansers but that's about it.

This time last year 2,182  had been admitted into ICU care and about 200 had died despite vaccination; in the 1st week of Feb there were 270 admitted to ICUs. Before Xmas, December 9 and December 15 there were 586 patients hospitalised by flu in England. 174 patients admitted to intensive care with flu, bringing the total in 2019 to 2,092.

It will be interesting to see that statistics for the current quarter and the difference caused by the Coronavirus strains.

What are you doing/planning to do different?


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## Beezerk (Mar 9, 2020)

My work puts me more at risk than the average person I guess as I'm travelling the country and mixing with hundreds of different people each week.
Saying that though, unless my employer says otherwise, I don't think it will affect me one bit.


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## Dando (Mar 9, 2020)

there was some numpty in my firm who came back from Italy and felt unwell so decided to come into the office.

Although it's our other City office there is every chance she's been in contact with people who have to been to my office.

we are still open but there was a deep clean done the weekend.


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## Hobbit (Mar 9, 2020)

I have a slight cough and I’m wearing long trousers and a sweater in the evening...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 9, 2020)

Suspect it will have a decent impact on me as I attend a fair few conferences globally that are being cancelled. On the other hand I mostly work from home when I am not travelling, so that aspect won't impact me as I'll just keep on doing that. Also suspect a few gigs I have coming up may be impacted which will be a bit of a bummer, but worse things happen at sea.


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## Russ_D (Mar 9, 2020)

So far it hasnt affected me (touch wood) at all. As i have a kidney condition i'm a little more at risk than some otherd but not enought to really be concerned about.
 I think people, while right to be concerned and careful, are going OTT especially with panic buying and stockpiling. I also think the media need to tone down on their reporting a little, too much scaremongering going on and conflicting info.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2020)

I am thinking that my holiday I have booked in Croatia in May might not happen. This would be annoying, as I am looking forwards to it.


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## Russ_D (Mar 9, 2020)

I have a question. If i am advised to self isolate, can i self isolate but on a golf course? .
Out in fresh air and not in close proximity to many people


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Just wondered if anyone's activities have been impacted.

I must admit that at the moment we're trying to get to the truth behind the headlines. Its a virus that's obviously easily transmitted and can be deadly for some groups. ... Our Club has also sent out advice and installed hand cleansers but that's about it...
		
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I don't believe it's 'deadly', in itself, to anybody. But for those already 'poorly' with other afflictions, the overall effort required can prove too much for their system. My Mum hated the concept of having to boost her defences by yearly flu jabs etc, but her sister - even more susceptible to asthma attacks than Mum - died, from the combined effects, within hours of contracting a particular virilent strain of flu one year.

And, btw, it's a completely different virus to 'flu - which is why it'll take a while to create a vaccine for it.


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## bluewolf (Mar 9, 2020)

Not sure yet. One of our main customers is based in Northern Italy and we're not sure how we are going to get the orders shipped into the factories currently. 
Also having to keep an eye on Southern Spain as my eldest is due to fly out for a month or so after his GCSE's (lucky blighter).
Personally. I'm not overly concerned at the moment.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 9, 2020)

It hasn’t affected me yet. But as  I work in people’s houses and I know people may well “self isolate”,  that doesn’t include stopping the contractors coming round to fix problems that can wait but for which they themselves can’t I won’t be surprised if I get it.
We are already seeing delays in some spares  coming.


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## Russ_D (Mar 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe it's 'deadly', in itself, to anybody. But for those already 'poorly' with other afflictions, the overall effort required can prove too much for their system. My Mum hated the concept of having to boost her defences by yearly flu jabs etc, but her sister - even more susceptible to asthma attacks than Mum - died, from the combined effects, within hours of contracting a particular virilent strain of flu one year.

And, btw, it's a completely different virus to 'flu - which is why it'll take a while to create a vaccine for it.
		
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Saying on the news that they have been asking, and got, 24 volunteers to be given coronavirus (and £3500 each) to help find a vaccine. They think they'll have one by the winter. £3500 for 2 weeks work somehow doesn't seem too enticing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2020)

My wife has heard that the team of Nurse Specialists that she retired from 18months ago will be deployed to wards if needed - through excessive workload on, or sickness of, the ward nurses.  This would be a real problem for women with Breast Cancer at my wife's hospital as they wouldn't be able to contact their nurse for support and advice.

My wife has said she'll return to the team to hold the fort and provide a basic support service.  But she was expecting by now to have had some request come through - either from the hospital or wider NHS - asking of her availability and where she could help out - and maybe to offer some basic training (a day/half day) on what might be expected of her if she offered to go to a ward.

But she hasn't had anything.

Why are we not getting ahead of the curve on this 'call back' that the government is talking about.  The load on the NHS could explode in only a week or two and there is no contact with recently retired or left the Service

And further,  in her current role,  the breast cancer charity she works for would be heavily leant upon to provide 'replacement' support to women and families if NHS nurse specialists have been deployed from their specialist roles (as they will be).   But again she is not aware of anything going to the charity from the NHS or the government - certainly the team she is in haven't been asked if they can increase their hours (my wife could) in the event of things getting heavy on the NHS.  But my wife can't do both.  She can increase cancer charity support hours OR go back to her previous team.

Things may well be happening - but if the NHS is going to have to cope with a massively increased demand on nursing staff then we surely have to get a bit ahead of the curve - even if it could be money wasted preparing for something that might not happen (there is precedence after all).

BTW - this was raised by my wife as she is wondering about what the government are actually doing about getting nurses to return to work - and she is concerned that though they are talking about it - they don't actually seem to be doing anything.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 9, 2020)

So far it has not impacted but if factories start closing for a period, carriers stop moving around, both here and Europe, then the impact will be huge. We mfr, we supply other manufacturers. Working from home is not an option, either for us or for them

The thing is, at the moment we are largely talking about 'what if'. Until things actually start to happen we wont know how it will impact.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 9, 2020)

Everyone at work expecting to get it at some point.
Dealing with intl truck drivers (majority with questionable hygiene at the best of times) 24/7 is a recipe for disaster. The official advice we’ve had from The health agency is we should instruct every driver to complete their delivery and then call 111 before they self isolate for 14 days.

Now, these drivers can barely cross the road and collect the correct parking ticket despite written instruction in our office in a dozen languages. Add to that Our company doesn’t pay sick. The majority of us have decided to form a mini union. Stating clearly that if the don’t wish to cover sick pay, then the second one person falls ill, we will all self isolate. Hoping common sense will prevail and they‘ll cover legitimate illness. Because only 12 from 60 do Our role. So they’d be buggered if we’re off.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife has heard that the team of Nurse Specialists that she retired from 18months ago will be deployed to wards if needed - through excessive workload on, or sickness of, the ward nurses.  This would be a real problem for women with Breast Cancer at my wife's hospital as they wouldn't be able to contact their nurse for support and advice.
...

Things may well be happening - but if the NHS is going to have to cope with a massively increased demand on nursing staff then we surely have to get a bit ahead of the curve - even if it could be money wasted preparing for something that might not happen (there is precedence after all).

BTW - this was raised by my wife as she is wondering about what the government are actually doing about getting nurses to return to work - and she is concerned that though they are talking about it - they don't actually seem to be doing anything.
		
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Ah, the joys of beauracracy; and the NHS is a gargantuan one! And the trickle down of decisions/funding following the trickle up of proposals/plans following the trickle down of requests for answers! An all in an already over-overloaded organisation in the first place!


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## Wolf (Mar 9, 2020)

Hasn't directly affect us at all as of yet, though my sons Skiing trip to Italy with the school in Easter holidays is still up in the air and school can't confirm if they're going or not, or if they will reimburse the money via insurance if it is cancelled. 

Father in law works for an oil company who have a big project being built in Northern Italy that is due for completion mid April and meant to sail out by end of April. Speaking to him last night they still don't know if completion is on target or behind as effectively all comms have been stopped as workers are off, but if its not completed its going to apparently cost the company millions in outgoing & incoming revenues and could cost people their jobs as other projects later in the year rely on this one completing ontime. 

Mrs cousins been quarantined after coming back frim Venice. It's quite interesting as ultimately I say it hasn't impacted us at all but is having some big knock effects elsewhere in the extended family.


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## IanM (Mar 9, 2020)

We have been told to cancel all travel to our Operation Centres to minimise who the folk there are mixing with.  Other than that it's stand-by for more info.

Government in a tough corner here which ever direction they go.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ah, the joys of beauracracy; and the NHS is a gargantuan one! And the trickle down of decisions/funding following the trickle up of proposals/plans following the trickle down of requests for answers! An all in an already over-overloaded organisation in the first place!
		
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Indeed - but if a keystone of the governments plan for the NHS coping is to get those such as my wife back into the system they need to be contacting her NOW.  She is almost uniquely perfectly placed to provide 'business continuity' for her old team and keep the service running at a minimum level - and as of today she would do it - but if she is asked by her current employer to increase her hours than that option could disappear.

And we have been wondering if things were to explode as they might what the government might have to decide around commuters - especially into London.  In the morning 100s of 000s crammed into commuter trains coming in from a 100miles radius - then crammed into the Underground.  And in the evening heading back out of the capital with whatever they might have picked up.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2020)

We've delayed book a holiday as Mrs Imurg may have all leave cancelled if enough NHS staff get it or have to isolate for 2 weeks.
Whole units could be closed or have a skeleton staff if it gets bad enough...


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 9, 2020)

Getting annoyed I don’t have it, really fancy a few week off.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2020)

Working from home I won't be impacted - though my company has put a stop on any non-essential travel or travel to governmental statemented controlled areas of any country.

However as my work is on our Health Account with some large NHS trusts - my actual work will most certainly be impacted and we are planning for significant slippage even although the trusts have not yet advised us of any hold they wish put on their projects with us.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 9, 2020)

On a positive note the disgusting guy who sits behind me in the office has clearly read the emails and posters at work and is using a tissue, which is a first. He usually sneezes into his hand and then leaves the office with the gunk still dripping to clean it off...grim.

Thank goodness I'm only here on a Monday.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 9, 2020)

Apparently John Travolta has contracted it.  He's got chills and they're multiplying and he's losing control ….

I'll get my coat.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 9, 2020)

Mrs wedge works at the local hospital, which puts her and me at higher risk. My company has forbidden all international travel, one lad at work self isolating for two weeks because his parents came over from Italy at the weekend . No, you couldn't make it up.

Was heading to Japan on vacation next week with a gang of friends, we have cancelled now due to pressures from employers re: travel, and any quarantine implications affecting our wider circles. Trying to decide on losing the flight money or rebooking later in the year on the assumption that travel won't be so much of an issue then.


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## Mudball (Mar 9, 2020)

Major impact .. part of our business runs events and has had to cancel several of these globally so everyone takes a hit. 

For us, all international travel stopped.  Regional/ local reduce where possible. If someone coughs in the office, we might get a deep clean - which on the plus side means the carpets getting cleaned 😎

Video conferencing is the new way of working. It Monday lunch time and I m still in my PJ shorts  which goes with my crisp white shirt that can be seen on the calls


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## GB72 (Mar 9, 2020)

Nothing has changed for me work wise. Like others I am holding back on holiday plans until things become clearer. Only other change I see is that there are hand sanitisers on all the machines at the gym


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## Orikoru (Mar 9, 2020)

I have continued exactly as normal.


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## Rooter (Mar 9, 2020)

I have had to cancel a planned work trip to Milan which was supposed to be the week after next.
Meeting tomorrow in London with a big bank has cancelled due to all non-urgent visitors being blocked.
I have a 3-day public training course in Milan in May which is having people cancel, it most likely I will cancel it completely.
My colleague from Milan is not allowed to our London office.

Senior management has released some guidelines.

Some of my clients have done some serious work around it, think of critical engineering shift patterns etc, 

It's affecting my work in a big way. and it's not fun! 

And we almost ran out of bog roll at home.


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## oxymoron (Mar 9, 2020)

We are due to fly to the canaries on Wednesday ,,,,, let see how that one goes.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 9, 2020)

Business as usual. Staff working and taking full PPE protection on patients that need it but otherwise everything else working perfectly fine. The technicians are having a hard time sourcing stuff but everyone working as best we can in the circumstances


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## Mudball (Mar 9, 2020)

Is this what Osborne said would happen ... but is happening for an entirely unplanned reasons.  

Dont even dare look at the stock markets today..


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## yandabrown (Mar 9, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Apparently John Travolta has contracted it.  He's got chills and they're multiplying and he's losing control ….

I'll get my coat.
		
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Apparently that was a false alarm, he was better on Sunday morning, it was just a Saturday Night Fever


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## DaveR (Mar 9, 2020)

Biggest impact for me is cutting down on the number of poos I have each day to conserve toilet roll.


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## jim8flog (Mar 9, 2020)

Today I  stopped shaking my golf partner's hand and instead give a kick up the a.


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## GB72 (Mar 9, 2020)

I know it is just one of those junk, copy and paste Facebook posts but read an interesting one that got my conspiracy theorist brain going. Quite a few  people I know were hit by a bad flu bug over Xmas, thought they had shook it and it would come back again. What is to say that people have not been getting corona virus for a few months now but it has gone largely unreported as nobody was testing for it.


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## jim8flog (Mar 9, 2020)

Feeling relieved that I do not actually need my savings at the moment (investments).


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## Hobbit (Mar 9, 2020)

Certainly affected my daughter. She's supposed to be going to northern Italy, supervising a skiing trip with the school. The area is on lock down but the UK govt haven't advised not to travel... the insurance company won't pay up till the Foreign Office advises not to travel.


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## Slime (Mar 9, 2020)

The only way it has affected me is that I've got really wound up by the mass hysteria caused by the media!
Otherwise unaffected.
I'm a self-employed garden maintenance bod, therefore don't qualify for sick pay, therefore won't self-isolate should I inadvertently sneeze or cough.
I work outside and have just lost 5 months work due to the constant rain, I just can't afford to sit at home any more!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2020)

And we are very concerned about my son's work and his income.

If all the events and tours he's booked to work on are cancelled by the companies he works with, then he has no income - they might pay him a 'holding' percentage of what he would have invoiced them for - but there is absolutely no requirement for them to do so.  He will have zero income and has no savings.  

How the heck he will pay his rent, council tax, electricity and gas goodness only knows - and he does have to eat.  Well actually I do know...will be us who pays...

But he is very fortunate that he has us.  There are very many who could lose much, if not all, of their income - and will have no friendly Bank of MaD to ask for a bail out 'loan' - and even if they get a loan from somewhere many will struggle to pay it back unless it is spread out over a quite long period and with very low or zero interest rates.

I very much hope the chancellor considers all of these folks on Wednesday in the budget.


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## CliveW (Mar 9, 2020)

I smiled at the end of last week when I saw two teams of girls playing football and they touched elbows when they walked on the pitch. As soon as the first goal was scored they were all over each other kissing and hugging!


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## Papas1982 (Mar 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we are very concerned about my son's work and his income.

If all the events and tours he's booked to work on are cancelled by the companies he works with, then he has no income - they might pay him a 'holding' percentage of what he would have invoiced them for - but there is absolutely no requirement for them to do so.  He will have zero income and has no savings. 

How the heck he will pay his rent, council tax, electricity and gas goodness only knows - and he does have to eat.  Well actually I do know...will be us who pays...

But he is very fortunate that he has us.  There are very many who could lose much, if not all, of their income - and will have no friendly Bank of MaD to ask for a bail out 'loan' - and even if they get a loan from somewhere many will struggle to pay it back unless it is spread out over a quite long period and with very low or zero interest rates.

I very much hope the chancellor considers all of these folks on Wednesday in the budget.
		
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Genuine question.
what would you hope he does?

having read a few of your posts, your lad works in this industry through choice and so takes his chances. Events like this will always run with loose contracts as there is clearly no need for full time staff.


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## upsidedown (Mar 9, 2020)

Slime said:



			The only way it has affected me is that I've got really wound up by the mass hysteria caused by the media!
Otherwise unaffected.
I'm a self-employed garden maintenance bod, therefore don't qualify for sick pay, therefore won't self-isolate should I inadvertently sneeze or cough.
I work outside and have just lost 5 months work due to the constant rain, I just can't afford to sit at home any more!!
		
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Likewise but semi retired now so just lawns and hedges, did 3 hedges last week and hope to start mowing this week.
Being fairly rural not overly worried


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## Sweep (Mar 9, 2020)

Experienced delays coming out of our Chinese factories in February but everyone seems to be getting back to work now. Shipping is still an issue as all the ships are in the wrong place. Airfreight costs have risen steeply and flights are less frequent.
Italy is an important market for us and much of our product goes to the cruise ship industry so it’s not great. However all that will recover eventually. People’s health is more important right now.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Certainly affected my daughter. She's supposed to be going to northern Italy, supervising a skiing trip with the school. The area is on lock down but the UK govt haven't advised not to travel... the insurance company won't pay up till the Foreign Office advises not to travel.
		
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All ski resorts have shut down in Italy so the travel company should refund money. Crystal certainly are.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2020)

Imurg said:



			We've delayed book a holiday as Mrs Imurg may have all leave cancelled if enough NHS staff get it or have to isolate for 2 weeks.
Whole units could be closed or have a skeleton staff if it gets bad enough...
		
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Missis T has been out with some ex NHS pals for a curry tonight. Last conversation was this topic. They all said to a man, well woman “ you can shove it if the NHS comes calling”. Bottom line is they feel they have been shafted by governments for years re working conditions and wages. Have now retired, are the wrong side of 55 -60 have ailments and they want them to go back. 
Be interesting.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			All ski resorts have shut down in Italy so the travel company should refund money. Crystal certainly are.
		
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I think the Italian prime minister has shut everything down now. ☹️


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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Getting annoyed I don’t have it, really fancy a few week off.
		
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it could be permanently off though. ☹️ 🤔 could proper screw your hcap up.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I have a slight cough and I’m wearing long trousers and a sweater in the evening...
		
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A wee change from your usual mini skirt and boob tube


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## williamalex1 (Mar 9, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			We are due to fly to the canaries on Wednesday ,,,,, let see how that one goes.
		
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I've to pick up my daughter and ex wife coming from Tenerife on Friday night, TBH I'd rather not, but here we go again 2nd time in 2 weeks picking up relatives from airports again


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## Sats (Mar 9, 2020)

My uncle died just after Christmas and lived in Hong Kong, my dad is still out there and I'm picking him up as we arranged that before the outbreak. If he's not symptomatic then it's business as usual (for now that is) however, if he gets ill then it's a 72 hour isolation whilst tests are done and if clear business as normal, if not we're all getting tested.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 9, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Experienced delays coming out of our Chinese factories in February but everyone seems to be getting back to work now. Shipping is still an issue as all the ships are in the wrong place. Airfreight costs have risen steeply and flights are less frequent.
Italy is an important market for us and much of our product goes to the cruise ship industry so it’s not great. However all that will recover eventually. People’s health is more important right now.
		
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That's where my Smart Bidet toilet is coming from


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I think the Italian prime minister has shut everything down now. ☹️
		
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Yep Italy in lockdown


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## williamalex1 (Mar 9, 2020)

Sats said:



			My uncle died just after Christmas and lived in Hong Kong, my dad is still out there and I'm picking him up as we arranged that before the outbreak. If he's not symptomatic then it's business as usual (for now that is) however, if he gets ill then it's a 72 hour isolation whilst tests are done and if clear business as normal, if not we're all getting tested.
		
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Cost a friend of mine £2.300 for 72 hour private testing and isolation after returning from China, luckily he got the all clear.


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## Slab (Mar 9, 2020)

I flew internationally yesterday, some airports are taking it way more seriously than others


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## Sats (Mar 9, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Cost a friend of mine £2.300 for 72 hour private testing and isolation after returning from China, luckily he got the all clear.
		
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£2300! Wow hopefully it won't come to that.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 9, 2020)

Sats said:



			£2300! Wow hopefully it won't come to that.
		
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Hopefully,  but that was the cost in Ross Hall private hospital Glasgow , seemingly the Chinese company he deals with paid the bill.


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## Chisteve (Mar 10, 2020)

I’m now stuck in Italy arrived Sunday had a brilliant days skiing yesterday never seen a resort or pistes so empty on a fine day with perfect conditions resort closed today awaiting news on travel and flight arrangements


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## Mudball (Mar 10, 2020)

Chisteve said:



			I’m now stuck in Italy arrived Sunday had a brilliant days skiing yesterday never seen a resort or pistes so empty on a fine day with perfect conditions resort closed today awaiting news on travel and flight arrangements
		
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Stay safe...


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## hovis (Mar 10, 2020)

I'm currently skiing in sestriere.   I got here Sunday night, had one day skiing and was told last night that all ski resorts are closed and we've got to wait for them to organise flights to get us home.  gutted as snow is perfect atm too


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## Khamelion (Mar 10, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Apparently John Travolta has contracted it.  He's got chills and they're multiplying and he's losing control ….

I'll get my coat.
		
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Yeah turns out he contracted Saturday night fever, not covid-19


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## USER1999 (Mar 10, 2020)

I have hay fever. I walked into the petrol station yesterday with the sniffles. It got some interesting looks.


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## Khamelion (Mar 10, 2020)

The company I work for has a travel ban in place for all but the more essential travel. My trip to Paris for work was cancelled and we are looking at increrasing our Internet edge BW to accomodate people working from home as part of our BCP plan. No direct impact yet other than a lot of bosses getting their knickers in a knot and doing very good impersoantions of headless chickens, it's starting to run like an episode of Dad's Army


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## CliveW (Mar 10, 2020)

I'm off to Turkey in April and hopefully all will be OK. Currently the cost of our flight has reduced by half from what we paid in May last year.


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## SteveJay (Mar 10, 2020)

Just starting to affect us. Daughter's work has 2 confirmed cases and a planned few days away to Nice next month for me and the wife is looking unlikely.

I was fairly relaxed thinking it is only like the flu for most that contract it, but hearing the news from Italy last night where hospitals have insufficient intensive care units to cope, it does sound more serious, although numbers are still relatively low and all the panic here seems over the top.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 10, 2020)

4 days to Mexico and hopefully loads of Coronas 👍


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## Beezerk (Mar 10, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			4 days to Mexico and hopefully loads of Coronas 👍
		
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🤣
Which hotel mate?


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## Papas1982 (Mar 10, 2020)

Missus starting to panic as we're due to head to Portugal 1st April. 

I'll be miffed if it's cancelled as I got an absolute bargain that will not doubt not be available in summer or October half term


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## Tashyboy (Mar 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			🤣
Which hotel mate?
		
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Occidental puerto nuevo. Hopefully. Just sorting out golf tops and shorts. Think al get away with short socks. 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

My pension fund will have taken a hammering...I do not want to look.  This could delay my hanging up of my boots


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## Orikoru (Mar 10, 2020)

We are meant to be flying out to Bratislava in a couple of weeks for a long weekend so I'm just hoping nothing happens to get that cancelled at the minute.


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## adam6177 (Mar 10, 2020)

Just been discussing this at work.....the conspiracy theorists are in full flow: so bearing in mind all thats going on in the world with carbon netural etc a suggested "solution" voiced by many is population control.  So what better than a government started illness that could wipe out large portions of the old and infirm......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Genuine question.
what would you hope he does?

having read a few of your posts, your lad works in this industry through choice and so takes his chances. Events like this will always run with loose contracts as there is clearly no need for full time staff.
		
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His situation is no different from anyone who is self-employed or works on a zero hours contract.

If he is ill, then he does not work and loses any income he might have made during that period.   He also knows that June, July and August are low periods for his work - as winter is for gardeners - and so works to accommodates that accordingly.  Yes - that's the name of the game.

But he works on the assumptions that his customers (event management companies) continue to provide him with work with reasonable advance notice (most do not have salaried reps such as what my son does), so that he can see gaps and fill them - or plan for having no income.  But the current situation is different and very worrying for him.  He has a good workload in place for March and April - and would expect to be advised of May work in the next few weeks.  But he has no idea what might happen to his March and April work as it could all be cancelled tomorrow - and clearly has no idea if there will be ANY work in May.

There are very many in this country who are self-employed or work in zero hours service industries - services often that you and I might use.  What about them when the work stops and they have no income to pay their bills?  Do their employers have any responsibility to these employees?  Do we through our taxes not ourselves have a responsibility to them in circumstances such as we find ourselves in - where it is not the companies who will determine what happens to work - but the government.

But since you ask what he is doing to mitigate at least some of the risk - he and his partner are both having their Universal Credit interviews today.  And so hopefully they will get some support from the state.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			Just been discussing this at work.....the conspiracy theorists are in full flow: so bearing in mind all thats going on in the world with carbon netural etc a suggested "solution" voiced by many is population control.  So what better than a government started illness that could wipe out large portions of the old and infirm......
		
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Heard the same conspiratorial rubbish as being a solution concocted to address the UK's Elderly Social Care problem.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

Sats said:



			£2300! Wow hopefully it won't come to that.
		
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The cost of private medical care when there is an existing condition or risk is eek!  My Mrs was quoted £520/month for private Medical Cover for her existing condition (in remission from BC)...


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## Robster59 (Mar 10, 2020)

Our company has now banned non-essential people from going into our main offices.  I was scheduled for a meeting in a pharmaceutical company today which they have cancelled over Covid 19 concerns.  Our company has banned non-essential travel and the use of shared pool cars. 
I feel like walking around with a bell shouting "unclean, unclean!"


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## Kellfire (Mar 10, 2020)

Life goes on as normal so far. One lad refused to shake anyone’s hand after football last night. We’ve got a coronavirus pod at work, which I didn’t realise until today.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			His situation is no different from anyone who is self-employed or works on a zero hours contract.

If he is ill, then he does not work and loses any income he might have made during that period.   He also knows that June, July and August are low periods for his work - as winter is for gardeners - and so works to accommodates that accordingly.  Yes - that's the name of the game.

But he works on the assumptions that his customers (event management companies) continue to provide him with work with reasonable advance notice (most do not have salaried reps such as what my son does), so that he can see gaps and fill them - or plan for having no income.  But the current situation is different and very worrying for him.  He has a good workload in place for March and April - and would expect to be advised of May work in the next few weeks.  But he has no idea what might happen to his March and April work as it could all be cancelled tomorrow - and clearly has no idea if there will be ANY work in May.

There are very many in this country who are self-employed or work in zero hours service industries - services often that you and I might use.  What about them when the work stops and they have no income to pay their bills?  Do their employers have any responsibility to these employees?  Do we through our taxes not ourselves have a responsibility to them in circumstances such as we find ourselves in - where it is not the companies who will determine what happens to work - but the government.

But since you ask what he is doing to mitigate at least some of the risk - he and his partner are both having their Universal Credit interviews today.  And so hopefully they will get some support from the state.
		
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I meant what would you like the chancellor to do... 
Not your son. Obviously we can all only prepare do much ourselves. 

The majority of people I know will struggle if they lose 2 weeks wages. 

Unfortunately low hour contracts are here to stay. Its either that or fire 75% of people in them and jeep the ones ehi can guarantee availability for 39 hours plus.


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## IanM (Mar 10, 2020)

Pension fund has taken a severe kick in the doodahs


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## Rooter (Mar 10, 2020)

Home life, no difference, really starting to affect my work now...

2 planned works in Italy cancelled.
Event in Athens for April cancelled.
Israel imposing a 2 week isolation on arrival will delay 3 deployment projects
Next 2 days i am at the Excel for a large event
Next week flying to Belgrade for another large event.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I meant what would you like the chancellor to do...
Not your son. Obviously we can all only prepare do much ourselves.

The majority of people I know will struggle if they lose 2 weeks wages.

Unfortunately low hour contracts are here to stay. Its either that or fire 75% of people in them and jeep the ones ehi can guarantee availability for 39 hours plus.
		
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I honestly do not know what the chancellor can do as I don't know what tools are at his disposal to help.

I guess he could allocate £XXXmillions to be provided through the UC system to those who lose their income due to measures taken by the government to delay the spread of the virus.

The government could also require all lenders to provide all borrowers or those with Credit Cards to pay with a payment holiday of a couple of months - though the lenders and Credit card companies would have to immediately suspend collection of claims through direct debits and ignore missed standing order or other payments as missed payments go straight onto the borrowers Credit Record - and they can be very difficult to get removed.

Likewise Councils could be required to suspend collection of Council Tax - but the government would have to cover councils for their loss of income.

What this whole crisis does also do is highlight the nature of working and living on a zero hours contract, and of life as self-employed. It's all fine for the individual whilst the work is there - but when it isn't the individual's life can become extremely difficult and precarious, and for many debts are very quickly racked up - debts that are very difficult to clear as once the income is lost, it is often lost for good - and does not come back later as additional income.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 10, 2020)

Rooter said:



			Home life, no difference, really starting to affect my work now...

2 planned works in Italy cancelled.
Event in Athens for April cancelled.
Israel imposing a 2 week isolation on arrival will delay 3 deployment projects
Next 2 days i am at the Excel for a large event
Next week flying to Belgrade for another large event.
		
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flippin eck Root, it would be easier to write down what’s still normal in your life. 😳


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## stefanovic (Mar 10, 2020)

Leaving the EU and having control over our borders is a bit reassuring. But flights arriving?


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## Chisteve (Mar 10, 2020)

In sestriere also flight home arranged for later this evening such a shame as perfect skiing conditions


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## Mudball (Mar 10, 2020)

Chisteve said:



			In sestriere also flight home arranged for later this evening such a shame as perfect skiing conditions
		
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Can you go the other way into France and stay ski-ing


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## Papas1982 (Mar 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I honestly do not know what the chancellor can do as I don't know what tools are at his disposal to help.

I guess he could allocate £XXXmillions to be provided through the UC system to those who lose their income due to measures taken by the government to delay the spread of the virus.

The government could also require all lenders to provide all borrowers or those with Credit Cards to pay with a payment holiday of a couple of months - though the lenders and Credit card companies would have to immediately suspend collection of claims through direct debits and ignore missed standing order or other payments as missed payments go straight onto the borrowers Credit Record - and they can be very difficult to get removed.

Likewise Councils could be required to suspend collection of Council Tax - but the government would have to cover councils for their loss of income.

*What this whole crisis does also do is highlight the nature of working and living on a zero hours contract, and of life as self-employed. It's all fine for the individual whilst the work is there - but when it isn't the individual's life can become extremely difficult and precarious, and for many debts are very quickly racked up - debts that are very difficult to clear as once the income is lost, it is often lost for good - and does not come back later as additional income*.
		
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I agree with the first part, but I really don’t see how it’s any different for self employed Or zero hour contracts. Everyone is responsible for accruing savings where possible for unforeseen problems. And everyone is going to lose out on money. As far as I’m aware, the is no legal obligation currently for companies to pay staff is there is a lockdown. You could argue that those on zero hours are people who generally don’t work huge hours and will miss out on less money. Statutory pay covers less than 1/4 of the average weekly salary of uk workers.


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## Chisteve (Mar 10, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Can you go the other way into France and stay ski-ing
		
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 We are on package deal with Crystal also all lifts in Sestriere are closed - so no


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I agree with the first part, but I really don’t see how it’s any different for self employed Or zero hour contracts. Everyone is responsible for accruing savings where possible for unforeseen problems. And everyone is going to lose out on money. As far as I’m aware, the is no legal obligation currently for companies to pay staff is there is a lockdown. You could argue that those on zero hours are people who generally don’t work huge hours and will miss out on less money. Statutory pay covers less than 1/4 of the average weekly salary of uk workers.
		
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Savings?  You surely appreciate that many, many individuals and families have to eke out their income to make it stretch to the end of the month - indeed that's when many have to head to the food banks - so the idea of building a savings pot is for many simply fanciful.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/article-4234518/Savings-inequality-rise-gap-grows-25.html

I note that my son and his partner and now signed on for UC.  He'll hear in a week how much they'll get and it'll be another four weeks before he gets his payment through.  That's something the chancellor can fix tomorrow.  Make the payment immediately it's approved.

He was also told at the interview that DWP are swamped by self-employed registering for UC as the PM told them to do - and so the normal timescales could be extended unless the chancellor does something - plus many wanting to register will have to be able to register without interview.  You can register on-line but still might have to have an interview before your application is accepted and then approved (I'm not sure if all applicants have to have an interview but that may be the case)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 10, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			Just been discussing this at work.....the conspiracy theorists are in full flow: so bearing in mind all thats going on in the world with carbon netural etc a suggested "solution" voiced by many is population control.  So what better than a government started illness that could wipe out large portions of the old and infirm......
		
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Going away from the old people death side but saw a tweet saying something like 

environmentalists: We need to reduce our travel to get carbon neutral and save the planet.

Public : no way. Im not changing anything 

Breaking news : we have a virus that is spreading 

Public -: ban all travel now and give me tons of bog roll 


Ofc once this is over we won't ease our way back to normal we will just start burning the jet oil full speed


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## Papas1982 (Mar 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Savings?  You surely appreciate that many, many individuals and families have to eke out their income to make it stretch to the end of the month - indeed that's when many have to head to the food banks - so the idea of building a savings pot is for many simply fanciful.*

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/article-4234518/Savings-inequality-rise-gap-grows-25.html

I note that my son and his partner and now signed on for UC.  He'll hear in a week how much they'll get and it'll be another four weeks before he gets his payment through.  That's something the chancellor can fix tomorrow.  Make the payment immediately it's approved.

He was also told at the interview that DWP are swamped by self-employed registering for UC as the PM told them to do - and so the normal timescales could be extended unless the chancellor does something - plus many wanting to register will have to be able to register without interview.  You can register on-line but still might have to have an interview before your application is accepted and then approved (I'm not sure if all applicants have to have an interview but that may be the case)
		
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Yes lots do struggle. But your original point I asked about was simply about what the chancellor can do. That being said, those that struggle aren't all self employed or on zero contracts. 

The rest our this discussion has moved on somewhat. Obviously lots struggle and will need help, but I stand by my option that lots is self inflicted. Brand new car, phone, sky TV etc etc. I'd love to know. How many people get and use their maximum mortgage and ignore the advise of rates rising.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Yes lots do struggle. But your original point I asked about was simply about what the chancellor can do. That being said, those that struggle aren't all self employed or on zero contracts.

The rest our this discussion has moved on somewhat. Obviously lots struggle and will need help, but I stand by my option that lots is self inflicted. Brand new car, phone, sky TV etc etc. I'd love to know. *How many people get and use their maximum mortgage* and ignore the advise of rates rising.
		
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Perhaps that is because us old uns and successive governments have mostly treated the housing market as a way to make money and house prices are so out of whack with the average wage that people have to go to a maximum mortgage just to afford something vaguely decent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Yes lots do struggle. But your original point I asked about was simply about what the chancellor can do. That being said, those that struggle aren't all self employed or on zero contracts.

The rest our this discussion has moved on somewhat. Obviously lots struggle and will need help, but I stand by my option that lots is self inflicted.* Brand new car, phone, sky TV* etc etc. I'd love to know. How many people get and use their maximum mortgage and ignore the advise of rates rising.
		
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I suggest that most of those who have *this *lot are not at the lower end of the income scale.  Many, if not most, at the lower end will however have a car, a phone and a TV.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Yes lots do struggle. But your original point I asked about was simply about what the chancellor can do. That being said, those that struggle aren't all self employed or on zero contracts.

The rest our this discussion has moved on somewhat. Obviously lots struggle and will need help, but I stand by my option that lots is self inflicted. Brand new car, phone, sky TV etc etc. I'd love to know. How many people get and use their maximum mortgage and ignore the advise of rates rising.
		
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As someone with basically a maxed out mortgage £288,000 now after borrowing 60k for my loft recently .. now when you get a mortgage they stress test your wages to see if you can afford it if rates go up

I fixed my mortgage for 10 years to ride out brexit , if rates went up 5% or whatever it's affordable I would save less or cut out one of the car leases and use the savings to buy one

Many others in my age bracket don't have this luxury .

It's easy to say it's self inflicted if your not in that situation


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## pendodave (Mar 10, 2020)

There's some nonsense on here about savings. There's a huge number of people in our country who live a pretty grim hand to mouth existence. About 8m have no savings, about 20m have <£1500. Are we suggesting that they're all feckless and have a big telly and an iphone?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 10, 2020)

Chelsea's second leg with Bayern now behind closed doors.  Could be a blessing, we may be playing the Everton role in that one...


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## Papas1982 (Mar 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			As someone with basically a maxed out mortgage £288,000 now after borrowing 60k for my loft recently .. now when you get a mortgage they stress test your wages to see if you can afford it if rates go up

I fixed my mortgage for 10 years to ride out brexit , if rates went up 5% or whatever it's affordable I would save less or cut out one of the car leases and use the savings to buy one

Many others in my age bracket don't have this luxury .

It's easy to say it's self inflicted if your not in that situation
		
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i Quantified the self inflicted remark by saying it was those that took out luxury’s that would put them at Risk.
if you’re at 100% because you  needed to do so to get on the ladder etc then obviously I sympathise. I just know lots who pay in the never never and then complain when the bubble bursts.


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## drdel (Mar 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that most of those who have *this *lot are not at the lower end of the income scale.  Many, if not most, at the lower end *will however have a car, a phone and a TV*.
		
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And many will be paid for on monthly credit and renewed just to get the latest device - its a knife edge: then along comes a job problem (or virus) that then upsets the cash-flow and all hell breaks loose. Many could buy 2nd hand but don't !

Whose fault is it - the individual, banks for 'selling' easy payments, car makers for pushing opaque private cheap leasing, TV and advertisers for selling aspirational lifestyles - I've no idea. However do notice that often the feckless get support when the prudent end up paying their benefits/loses!

I had poor parents with no car etc who drummed into me that if you couldn't pay for it then either save up or do without and make sure you keep a 'rainy' day fund. They never had enough to lend us kids money, go on holidays eat out etc.

If people are asked to isolate there are those who will break ranks because they will be destitute so the Government need to make it a last resort. IMO because it will be unenforceable it will not be sustainable beyond a month or so. Its not a bright prospect.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			And many will be paid for monthly and renewed just ti get the latest device: then along comes a job problem (or virus) that then upsets the cash-flow and all hell breaks loose. Many could buy 2nd hand but don't !

Whose fault is it - the individual, that banks for 'selling' easy payments TV and advertisers for selling aspirational lifestyles - I've no idea. However do notice that often the feckless get support when the prudent end up pay the benefits!

I had poor parents with no car etc who drummed into me that if you couldn't pay for it either save up or do without and make sure you keep a 'rainy' day fund.

If people are asked to isolate there are those who will break ranks because they will be destitute so the Government need to make it a last resort. IMO because it will be unenforceable it will not be sustainable beyond a month or so. Its not a bright prospect.
		
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Life has drastically changed.

Jobs aren't as easy to come by so people have to do what they can to keep jobs. Lease a car can be only option to get to work cheapy as they can't save for the owning of an second hand one.

They don't always need the latest phone but in this day and age you need a phone of some kind to keep on top of life and jobs

Can't judge anyone until you been in their situation ..

I had a hire car pick me up few months ago and in convo he asked where I worked (hours drive) he said why don't you just work round here 

I didn't reply what I wanted because it would be rude but round there the wages would be less than a 3rd than I'm being paid .. so I'd rather put the travel in for a better life


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Chelsea's second leg with Bayern now behind closed doors.  Could be a blessing, we may be playing the Everton role in that one... 

Click to expand...

Good, feel our pain 😁. You should have been gentler to us on Sunday.

It's a great shame. These evenings are about the atmosphere as much as the football.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good, feel our pain 😁. You should have been gentler to us on Sunday.

It's a great shame. These evenings are about the atmosphere as much as the football.
		
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It is a great shame as what I saw in my one visit was a great city & superb hosts.  Fancied making a break of it to see the place again and take in the game, glad I didn't talk Mrs. BiM into it now.  Now that would be the definition of pain...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It is a great shame as what I saw in my one visit was a great city & superb hosts.  Fancied making a break of it to see the place again and take in the game, glad I didn't talk Mrs. BiM into it now.  Now that would be the definition of pain... 

Click to expand...

I've been to Munich a good number of times through work, a bi annual exhibition. It really is a cracking city, I've only got praise for it. 

At least as a Chelsea fan you have a reasonable chance of getting back there in the near future.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that most of those who have *this *lot are not at the lower end of the income scale.  Many, if not most, at the lower end will however have a car, a phone and a TV.
		
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Look around any job centre, town centre or even A&E. They all have state of the art phones, decent designer gear, especially trainers and most houses have Sky aerials on. I would argue that a lot at the lower end of the income scale are using the system and getting by ok


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Look around any job centre, town centre or even A&E. They all have state of the art phones, decent designer gear, especially trainers and most houses have Sky aerials on. I would argue that a lot at the lower end of the income scale are using the system and getting by ok
		
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Absolute rubbish, the gap between rich and poor getting wider, increase in foodbanks, more children in poverty! more fraud by tax dodging and yet those “at the lower end of the income scale are using the system and getting by ok”! Dreary, dreary me!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolute rubbish, the gap between rich and poor getting wider, increase in foodbanks, more children in poverty! more fraud by tax dodging and yet those “at the lower end of the income scale are using the system and getting by ok”! Dreary, dreary me!

Click to expand...

Look around any McDonalds. Look in any shopping centre. The lower scale (those on benefits for a degree of clarity) seem to have money to burn on fast food, posh trainers, decent phones. Sorry that's the truth and it's out there. Sadly and I agree with your point it is the ones that don't play the system and fraudulently claim etc that are forced to resort to foodbanks and struggle with heating costs, clothes for their kids etc.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Look around any McDonalds. Look in any shopping centre. The lower scale (those on benefits for a degree of clarity) seem to have money to burn on fast food, posh trainers, decent phones. Sorry that's the truth and it's out there. Sadly and I agree with your point it is the ones that don't play the system and fraudulently claim etc that are forced to resort to foodbanks and struggle with heating costs, clothes for their kids etc.
		
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You can't completely blame the people for the system being broke.

People are told sometimes they are best off out of work as the state can pay the rent etc. They can't really have savings so use the money for other things 

Someone my wife works with her credits changed meaning she £400 worse off a month they told her leave her job and they will pay all her bills 

So rather than keep her employed it's better off her being out of work. 

Again can't judge anyone until you been completely in their situation.


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## chrisd (Mar 10, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At least as a Chelsea fan you have a reasonable chance of getting back there in the near future.
		
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He's too old to fight for his country  !


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			You can't completely blame the people for the system being broke.

People are told sometimes they are best off out of work as the state can pay the rent etc. They can't really have savings so use the money for other things

Someone my wife works with her credits changed meaning she £400 worse off a month they told her leave her job and they will pay all her bills

So rather than keep her employed it's better off her being out of work.

Again can't judge anyone until you been completely in their situation.
		
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Totally agree and 100% the system is knackered. My response was to the original post that said it wasn't the lower end (SILH) and in response to the response from there


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## Tashyboy (Mar 10, 2020)

FaceTimed a pal in Italy tonight from north of Milan. I mentioned am hopefully off to Mexico Saturday. She was quiet blunt when she said if you see any tourists from Italy keep away. I laughed and she said “am effing serious”. She mentioned that some Italians went to the Maldives and were convinced they had the virus but went anyway. She says they are now stuck in the Maldives and are moaning coz there rooms are not cleaned every day.
She says she will cope with the lock down. But others in typical Italian fashion are still rather blase’.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Look around any McDonalds. Look in any shopping centre. The lower scale (those on benefits for a degree of clarity) seem to have money to burn on fast food, posh trainers, decent phones. Sorry that's the truth and it's out there. Sadly and I agree with your point it is the ones that don't play the system and fraudulently claim etc that are forced to resort to foodbanks and struggle with heating costs, clothes for their kids etc.
		
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See post #94.

Judging our most vulnerable on what you see in MacDonalds is ridiculous.

You get scum at every level of society, you get knock off fake labels etc.


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## Wolf (Mar 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Look around any McDonalds. Look in any shopping centre. The lower scale (those on benefits for a degree of clarity) seem to have money to burn on fast food, posh trainers, decent phones. Sorry that's the truth and it's out there. Sadly and I agree with your point it is the ones that don't play the system and fraudulently claim etc that are forced to resort to foodbanks and struggle with heating costs, clothes for their kids etc.
		
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How do you know those people are claiming fraudulently without any proof, have money to burn on fast food and aren't simply having the 1 treat they can afford. Seems a very judgemental post on a very shallow level.


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## Kellfire (Mar 10, 2020)

Who’d have thought that on this forum a thread about an issue that will disproportionally affect the lower classes would see people showing themselves to be class snobs?


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## huds1475 (Mar 10, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			an issue that will disproportionally affect the lower classes
		
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In what way ?


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## Mudball (Mar 10, 2020)

Back to impact of Corona...  I havent been to the gym in a week.. and being drinking Corona...Also some great/funny memes going around..


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## Tashyboy (Mar 10, 2020)

Shared from Sky News: Coronavirus: Worldwide peak will come next winter, scientific model predicts https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ext-winter-scientific-model-predicts-11954441

just to cheer you all up


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 10, 2020)

Just seen on Sky News that the Government Health Minister, Nadine Dorries, has tested positive for Coronavirus.........

https://news.sky.com/story/nadine-dorries-health-minister-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-11954928


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## Fish (Mar 11, 2020)

Arsenal players in isolation, no change there 😜

Almost impossible to safe guard against, all jokes aside, it’s a very real threat, especially to the more elderly with other underlining health issues, and it will soon start to sweep right across the country, the movement of people whilst symptoms that are in their infancy unbeknown to themselves but then emerge fully, but have been in contact with so many people, is impossible to contain. 

Whilst delivering all over the country the last few days, the lad in my local fuel station was wearing thin disposable gloves as they handle so many cards etc, at a couple of goods in areas I witnessed the same similar precautions being taken, gloves and even masks & glasses!

When you think about all the items we exchange amongst ourselves on a daily basis, and then touch our own face, it’s inevitable that it’s going to break out much more, hopefully not to the levels Italy are experiencing, but to dismiss it fully that it won’t happen to me, is foolhardy, as we can’t, or it’s extremely difficult to safeguard yourself from it!


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## Kellfire (Mar 11, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			In what way ?
		
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 The leas fortunate in society suffer most illnesses more gravely. That’s just a fact. They are less educated in how to protect themselves and less healthy to begin with.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 11, 2020)

We aren’t in the Victorian age now, everybody has access to information and the advice, in this case, is to wash your hands etc

Corona will not care whereabouts in the society ladder you are.

In fact it is fair to say that the “wealthy” ie those that can afford to go abroad, bought it in along with tourists

So cut the crap about it affecting the poor more, it will affect us all, especially those over 60.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2020)

Fish said:



			Arsenal players in isolation, no change there 😜

!
		
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so the game tonight is off because some the players met the olympicarcos owner 2 weeks ago

yet wolves are allowed to play them tonight behind closed doors

be interested to see what the league do with our game with wolves at the weekend

as they will have played olympicaros and we played arsenal last week

surely a hot bed of virus


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## Swango1980 (Mar 11, 2020)

So far, it has had an impact on my fantasy football points, as the City game was postponed and I had Mahrez as captain this week.

Work wise, part of our business runs training courses around the UK. We've had some delegates pull out already, some due to the collapse of flybe, others as they are no longer allowed to travel under their company directives.

Long term, it looks like this could have a massive impact. Just look at Italy.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So far, it has had an impact on my fantasy football points, as the City game was postponed and I had Mahrez as captain this week.

Work wise, part of our business runs training courses around the UK. We've had some delegates pull out already, some due to the collapse of flybe, others as they are no longer allowed to travel under their company directives.

Long term, it looks like this could have a massive impact. Just look at Italy.
		
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I lost my head to head with a guy from work as I paid 4 points to get Silva in for the double game week

Had I left it mane would still be captain and I'd of floored him


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

The issue is surely not to do with impact on richer and poorer - but more to do with the impact on many self-Employed and those on zero hours contracts - and what the chancellor can do for these groups.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The issue is surely not to do with impact on richer and poorer - but more to do with the impact on many self-Employed and those on zero hours contracts - and what the chancellor can do for these groups.
		
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The issue is the impact on the whole of society, putting the possible needs of your family first and your priority isn’t very christian of you!


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2020)

Yesterday we did a bigger shopping trip than usual, focussing on stocking up the freezer, which is rarely full. It is now. Tonight is our usual Wednesday night trip along the Playa for a few beers with friends. This invariably means meeting people who’ve just flew in - it will be our last Playa visit till we see how things go in the next few weeks. We’ll continue going to the local bar in the village. And we’ll continue to bowl 3 times a week.

An overreaction? Maybe it is.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 11, 2020)

This is quite an interesting listen. Michael Osterholm is an expert in infectious diseases, from the University of Minnesota. Seems he predicted this a few years back. It comes across as quite a balanced, straight talking set of information.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The issue is surely not to do with impact on richer and poorer - but more to do with the impact on many self-Employed and those on zero hours contracts - and what the chancellor can do for these groups.
		
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And surely the self employed will have been making provisions for emergencies? Why do so many people rely on the nanny state?

When I was between jobs, for 3 months, in the early 90’s I’d previously saved enough to cover a break from work. I didn’t go cap in hand to anyone.


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## USER1999 (Mar 11, 2020)

I am / was going to Croatia on hols in my. My wife was a key note speaker at a conference in Dubrovnik. The conference is cancelled, as are her flights. Mine are not, and neither is the weeks holiday. We could book her new flights, but a bit pointless, as I doubt we will now be going.

It's only money though, so much more important to stay healthy.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The issue is surely not to do with impact on richer and poorer - but more to do with the impact on many self-Employed and those on zero hours contracts - and what the chancellor can do for these groups.
		
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No it is to do with everyone. Don’t matter if you self employed or not if you are dead. Follow the advice.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2020)

Am I  the only one that thinks that those that thought this corona virus is no worse than the flu. Well the penny is now dropping for them.


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## hovis (Mar 11, 2020)

[/QUOTE]


Chisteve said:



			We are on package deal with Crystal also all lifts in Sestriere are closed - so no
		
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i bet we was on the same flight home from the Olympic Village? 
i thought it was bad that information on self isolation at Birmingham Airport was  very limited and not upto date.  I have had to do my own digging to find out that I should be self isolating.  
one women on the plane said she was sending her son the school the next day!!!!!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2020)

My wifes school has just sent home a kid with suspected virus 

Wonder if the school will shut

Hope so tbh


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 11, 2020)

The Bank of England has just cut the base rate by 60%  from 0.75 to 0.25. This should be a positive affect for anyone with tracker a mortgage.


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## Kellfire (Mar 11, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We aren’t in the Victorian age now, everybody has access to information and the advice, in this case, is to wash your hands etc

Corona will not care whereabouts in the society ladder you are.

In fact it is fair to say that the “wealthy” ie those that can afford to go abroad, bought it in along with tourists

So cut the crap about it affecting the poor more, it will affect us all, especially those over 60.
		
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The wealthy will bring it into our society and then the poor will suffer the effects more if it spreads. That’s not crap, it’s simply fact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The issue is the impact on the whole of society, putting the possible needs of your family first and your priority isn’t very christian of you!
		
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I'm simply saying that those who completely lose their income are likely to struggle more than those who continue to get paid even although their work could be severely impacted or they are off sick or self-isolating.

My son's circumstances will be difficult for him, but his problems are totally mitigated by the fact that *we *will be able to bail him out. 

But I suggest that that will not be the case for most of those in the pretty hard up community in north Sheffield where he lives - for those who know Sheffield he lives in Shirecliffe.  Most who live in that community and the neighbouring ones in Sheffield S5, will not have a relatively well off Bank of MaD to go to to help them through.

So in reply to your point - I am not putting the possible needs of my family ahead first - instead I am - as you would expect - most concerned about others in society.  

With my concerns being especially for the poorest - and in this situation also those on zero hours contracts and the self-employed.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Am I  the only one that thinks that those that thought this corona virus is no worse than the flu. Well the penny is now dropping for them.
		
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I'll hold my hands up to that Tashy, and was also taken in by the stat that said although it was more contagious its mortality rate was lower. The stats released by the WHO today show that the mortality rate is currently 3.4% compared to less than 1% for seasonal flu.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And surely the self employed will have been making provisions for emergencies? Why do so many people rely on the nanny state?

When I was between jobs, for 3 months, in the early 90’s I’d previously saved enough to cover a break from work. I didn’t go cap in hand to anyone.
		
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This is true if, when you earn, you earn enough to live OK and at the same time put a bit aside and build up a pot of savings.  But many working in the gig and zero hours economies especially - do not earn enough to build up a backup pot of money to tide them through - they simply earn enough to live on.   It's all very well saying that they _should, _but it is not always possible given what they are paid.

BTW - as far as _relying _on the nanny state - my son was told yesterday that under UC he and his partner will jointly get benefits to the princely sum of £250 - a month...that'll pay their council tax and a couple of weeks gas and electricity (they are on a meter and cannot change to a cheaper power deal)


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## Skypilot (Mar 11, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Am I  the only one that thinks that those that thought this corona virus is no worse than the flu. Well the penny is now dropping for them.
		
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Forgetting the conspiracy theory, the Facts side is quite accurate.
.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 11, 2020)

Y


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm simply saying that those who completely lose their income are likely to struggle more than those who continue to get paid even although their work could be severely impacted or they are off sick or self-isolating.

My son's circumstances will be difficult for him, but his problems are totally mitigated by the fact that *we *will be able to bail him out.

But I suggest that that will not be the case for most of those in the pretty hard up community in north Sheffield where he lives - for those who know Sheffield he lives in Shirecliffe.  Most who live in that community and the neighbouring ones in Sheffield S5, will not have a relatively well off Bank of MaD to go to to help them through.

So in reply to your point - I am not putting the possible needs of my family ahead first - instead I am - as you would expect - most concerned about others in society. 

With my concerns being especially for the poorest - and in this situation also those on zero hours contracts and the self-employed.
		
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You need to re-read your initial post then because you never mentioned the poorest, you simply mentioned the zero hours and self-employed and what the chancellor can do for them!

If he makes any announcement related to the coronavirus today, I’d hope it’s all geared towards the NHS and the medical needs of all the population.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Y

You need to re-read your initial post then because you never mentioned the poorest, you simply mentioned the zero hours and self-employed and what the chancellor can do for them!

If he makes any announcement related to the coronavirus today, I’d hope it’s all geared towards the NHS and the medical needs of all the population.
		
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I may not have mentioned the poorest in a post because I was posting about one of the main concerns being expressed wider than on this forum - that being the impact on those who are self-employed and who work in the gig economy of any local or wider 'lock-down' and/or cancellation of events.

The poor are *always *the hardest hit as they have least ability to cope with any loss of income (either from the state or from their work) and then to recover.


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## hovis (Mar 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Y

You need to re-read your initial post then because you never mentioned the poorest, you simply mentioned the zero hours and self-employed and what the chancellor can do for them!

If he makes any announcement related to the coronavirus today, I’d hope it’s all geared towards the NHS and the medical needs of all the population.
		
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i think you need to stop being so sensitive and stop trying to read between the lines to start a stupid argument.  his first post was clear


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is true if, when you earn, you earn enough to live OK and at the same time put a bit aside and build up a pot of savings.  But many working in the gig and zero hours economies especially - do not earn enough to build up a backup pot of money to tide them through - they simply earn enough to live on.   It's all very well saying that they _should, _but it is not always possible given what they are paid.

BTW - as far as _relying _on the nanny state - my son was told yesterday that under UC he and his partner will jointly get benefits to the princely sum of £250 - a month...
		
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Each to their own. Your son chose his career path, and I'm sure he's well aware of the limitations in terms of earning. As for the govt subsidising him... I wonder where they get that money from? Ah yes, those that pay more tax. Its not just the bank of mum and dad, its the bank of every tax payer.

Some people do need support. They struggle to get a job or a job that pays enough but those that are self-employed chose their own job. I don't agree with UC for the self-employed.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 11, 2020)

hovis said:



			i think you need to stop being so sensitive and stop trying to read between the lines to start a stupid argument.  his first post was clear
		
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Not starting anything and his first post wasn’t clear, as shown by others also questioning it!


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## bluewolf (Mar 11, 2020)

Skypilot said:



			Forgetting the conspiracy theory, the Facts side is quite accurate.
.
View attachment 29349
View attachment 29349

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I'm going to assume that you haven't  fact checked that particular noticeboard prior to posting. It's a hoax. A dangerous one.. Feel free to check on Snopes (or any other fact checking site that you may prefer).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just seen on Sky News that the Government Health Minister, Nadine Dorries, has tested positive for Coronavirus.........

https://news.sky.com/story/nadine-dorries-health-minister-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-11954928

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Apparently in the last week or so she was at a #10 International Women's Day event at which the PM was present.  What the heck does he do?  The advice is I believe that he should self-isolate - as perhaps everyone at that event should do.  Difficult.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Each to their own. Your son chose his career path, and I'm sure he's well aware of the limitations in terms of earning. As for the govt subsidising him... I wonder where they get that money from? Ah yes, those that pay more tax. Its not just the bank of mum and dad, its the bank of every tax payer.

Some people do need support. They struggle to get a job or a job that pays enough but those that are self-employed chose their own job. I don't agree with UC for the self-employed.
		
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Don't worry - he'll soon lose it when his income goes up a little.  BTW - the PM has advised all self-employed to register for UC.

And do you consider those who work in the gig economy as self-employed...what about those on zero hours contracts...those who are 'employed' at the whim of their 'employer'.   Self-employed or zero hours is not always a choice option - it is often the only option.  If you call that subsidising well it is I suggest more the 'employer' who is getting subsidised and not the employee.  We are a civilised wealthy country - with values supposedly based upon Christian values - where those with more support those with much less.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 11, 2020)

I'm shipping two pallets to Italian customers today. Interesting to see if they make it all the way there or if during transit the freight system there grinds to a halt.

On the virus itself, if it is a contagious as it seems, if it were to rifle through the world as is being suggested, how long until we came out of the other side? If the bulk of people have had it, recovered and have a level of immunity that means it is relatively harmless, herd immunity I think it is called?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't worry - he'll soon lose it when his income goes up a little.  BTW - the PM has advised all self-employed to register for UC.

And do you consider those who work in the gig economy as self-employed...what about those on zero hours contracts...those who are 'employed' at the whim of their 'employer'.   Self-employed or zero hours is not always a choice option - it is often the only option.  If you call that subsidising well it is I suggest more the 'employer' who is getting subsidised and not the employee.  We are a civilised wealthy country - with values supposedly based upon Christian values - where those with more support those with much less.
		
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"Christian Values"?

You have to be very picky if you tie these in with "those with more support those with much less". There are probably many Christian values over time that have very much contradicted this. I'd say that this is more to do with being a more civilised society, rather than being a Christian society. Of course, that is an entirely different debate to this one.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 11, 2020)

I've just seen a viral thread going round facebook (excuse the pun), supposedly written by a young medical researcher posted in Wuhan. Amongst other things, the post say:


Consuming hot drinks like tea will neutralise the virus
Regular face masks will stop it
To test if you have it, hold your breath for more than 10 seconds. If you do this without coughing, without discomfort or a sense of oppression then this shows there is no fibrosis in the lungs, indicating essentially no infection.
There you go. That's is for the people that will happily believe absolutely anything they read.

Although, I do have to admit, I've done the hold my breath test. I passed


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't worry - he'll soon lose it when his income goes up a little.  BTW - the PM has advised all self-employed to register for UC.

And do you consider those who work in the gig economy as self-employed...what about those on zero hours contracts...those who are 'employed' at the whim of their 'employer'.   Self-employed or zero hours is not always a choice option - it is often the only option.  If you call that subsidising well it is I suggest more the 'employer' who is getting subsidised and not the employee.  We are a civilised wealthy country - with values supposedly based upon Christian values - where those with more support those with much less.
		
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Why should I be worried? I made my point. Those that chose to be self employed should make their own provisions.

My middle daughter was part of the gig economy. At one point she had 6 jobs. And she was also fitting in night classes. She, like her siblings, grafted to improve her lot and now has a great job, as they all do. It wasn't handed to them, nor did they go looking for handouts.  

Some people need help, and some people need to look at their life choices and chose a path, if they can, that makes them self sufficient... and maybe your son should consider a 2nd job to supplement his income.

Christian society? I have no problem paying tax, and more tax if neccessary to help those that need help. That doesn't include those that are capable of helping themselves but chose an easy option.


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## chellie (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			gas and electricity (they are on a meter and cannot change to a cheaper power deal)
		
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You can still switch supplier on a meter.


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## Wolf (Mar 11, 2020)

Finally had confirmation from my sons school his Skiing trip at Easter half term to Italy is cancelled and full refund is coming. 

As for the comments so far about self employed people I find that to be a very woe is me attitude, being self employed is choice people make I don't believe that should entitle them to additional government assistance. If you're self employed you have a responsibility to yourself to make suitable provisions and put money aside for times of sickness, holiday or potential loss of hours. I have been in that exact position myself as was my father before me, if things got tight the money put aside got dipped into because its your own responsibility to cover these things. 

If you have people still on a low income and no ability to put a little away each month whilst being self employed then I'd argue they've either made a poor career choice, need to have a 2nd income to subsidise their own life choice or change career to a full time employed role. 

Coronavirus or anything else isn't at fault for them struggling, their career choices are. That maybe harsh but its factually true.


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## Kellfire (Mar 11, 2020)

We’ve just been told we’ll be issued chlorinated wipes every day and must clean our keyboards, mice and desk phones with them.


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are a civilised wealthy country - with values supposedly based upon Christian values - where those with more support those with much less.
		
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## Wolf (Mar 11, 2020)

chellie said:



			You can still switch supplier on a meter.
		
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Exactly right and different suppliers have different energy rates even for metered customers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Why should I be worried? I made my point. Those that chose to be self employed should make their own provisions.

My middle daughter was part of the gig economy. At one point she had 6 jobs. And she was also fitting in night classes. She, like her siblings, grafted to improve her lot and now has a great job, as they all do. It wasn't handed to them, nor did they go looking for handouts. 

Some people need help, and some people need to look at their life choices and chose a path, if they can, that makes them self sufficient... and maybe your son should consider a 2nd job to supplement his income.

Christian society? I have no problem paying tax, and more tax if neccessary to help those that need help. That doesn't include those that are capable of helping themselves but chose an easy option.
		
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Careful Bri, you don’t want to be accused of being too sensitive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

chellie said:



			You can still switch supplier on a meter.
		
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I believe he has asked - I will tell him to do so if he has not.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've just seen a viral thread going round facebook (excuse the pun), supposedly written by a young medical researcher posted in Wuhan. Amongst other things, the post say:


Consuming hot drinks like tea will neutralise the virus
Regular face masks will stop it
To test if you have it, hold your breath for more than 10 seconds. If you do this without coughing, without discomfort or a sense of oppression then this shows there is no fibrosis in the lungs, indicating essentially no infection.
There you go. That's is for the people that will happily believe absolutely anything they read.

Although, I do have to admit, I've done the hold my breath test. I passed 

Click to expand...


Held my breath too, made it to 45 seconds, didn't start coughing..... but I did pass out...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

bobmac said:





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I am regularly told that whilst the values of UK society and government might well have been grounded back in the day in Christian values - that was then 100s of years ago - and this is now.  I also still hear many talk of the UK as a Christian country even although most do not hold any Christian beliefs.  Maybe things have changed in the last few years and we no longer consider UK a Christian country - but that the core values remain and we can all live them with or without a faith.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Why should I be worried? I made my point. Those that chose to be self employed should make their own provisions.

My middle daughter was part of the gig economy. At one point she had 6 jobs. And she was also fitting in night classes. She, like her siblings, grafted to improve her lot and now has a great job, as they all do. It wasn't handed to them, nor did they go looking for handouts.

Some people need help, and some people need to look at their life choices and chose a path, if they can, that makes them self sufficient... and maybe your son should consider a 2nd job to supplement his income.

Christian society? I have no problem paying tax, and more tax if neccessary to help those that need help. *That doesn't include those that are capable of helping themselves but chose an easy option*.
		
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The easy option being doing nothing and the state funding their lifestyle...some would have 'lavish' lifestyle...

But we are not talking of them - we are talking of those who do jobs providing services that we might all use but which the employers choose to employ on such as zero hours contract basis; who pay as little as possible and/or with no guaranteed work.  These folk cannot put money aside for the lean times - when work dries up or is simply given to someone else as the boss doesn't like your face.  If we want these services then effectively we indirectly subsidise the employers to provide them - and in the current coronavirus outbreak these workers could lose all their income and will be relying upon UC.  They will be able to report loss of income but an increase in UC will not be immediate.

You mention your daughter - I get it - My son works his backside off - often leaving home at 8am and getting home from work at 4am next day.  He has for years eschewed claiming any benefits he has been due as he was striving to make his own way - but in doing so has built up significant debts and has eventually signed on for UC - mostly due to risk to his income brought about through the coronavirus.  We have little doubt that he will succeed in his ambitions and will most likely do rather well for himself - but it takes time to build up the experience and the network.  But it will come.  He is no longer at the bottom - he is on the upward curve - but it does not pay great at first and it takes time.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 11, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Held my breath too, made it to 45 seconds, didn't start coughing..... but I did pass out... 

Click to expand...

After the dump someone had here this morning, everyone needed to hold their breath for more than 10 seconds.   On the positive side, no-one has the virus.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 11, 2020)

Just home from my M-in-Laws Oncology appt at Sunderland Hosp.

She is terminally ill and at 77yrs Old meets every risk factor, advise from specialist? Take whatever precautions you can and avoid contact with anyone who you suspect might be at risk of carrying a bug!

Now, without getting too sentimental, there’s very little they can do for her currently and understandable there wouldn’t be much they could do if she caught it, but, why call her in to hospital for her 3 monthly check up when the appt could of been done by phone and also can we be assured the MacMillan Nurses who come in on a frequent basis are not carrying the bug, or me or the family bring it home.

I’m old enough and ugly enough to realise we are in a difficult situation, but the consultant really didn’t seem to bothered about the virus.

As an aside most of the hand gel dispensers on the wall in the hospital were empty. We’ve had very few cases up north, but it did seem confusing as  we are getting mixed messages.


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## Hobbit (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The easy option being doing nothing and the state funding their lifestyle...some would have 'lavish' lifestyle...

But we are not talking of them - we are talking of those who do jobs providing services that we might all use but which the employers choose to employ on such as zero hours contract basis; who pay as little as possible and/or with no guaranteed work.  These folk cannot put money aside for the lean times - when work dries up or is simply given to someone else as the boss doesn't like your face.  If we want these services then effectively we indirectly subsidise the employers to provide them - and in the current coronavirus outbreak these workers could loose all their income and will be relying upon UC.  They will be able to report loss of income but an increase in UC will not be immediate.
		
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Sorry, I don't understand your first sentence at all. And in answer to your 2nd para, see the 3rd para in the post you quoted, "some people need help..."

As to the speed of the system in paying out. That's a different debate. To say the system is poor would be a mild understatement, its appalling. Personally, I feel the genuinely needy actually need more help, way more help. And I'd broaden the net to capture more people but, equally, there are some who've chosen a career that doesn't pay well. NOTE, they've chosen it, like your son has. They are the ones that if they want that career need to find another job to supplement it.


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## chellie (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I believe he has asked - I will tell him to do so if he has not.
		
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See if this helps him at all. https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/switch-prepaid-gas-electricity/#what


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## Swango1980 (Mar 11, 2020)

Does anybody think golf club committees may cancel competitions due to coronavirus? Just as the new season is upon us.


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## Beezerk (Mar 11, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Occidental puerto nuevo. Hopefully. Just sorting out golf tops and shorts. Think al get away with short socks. 😁
		
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If it's still the season for it I highly recommend the whale watching trip, proper top stuff 👌


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## USER1999 (Mar 11, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			We’ve just been told we’ll be issued chlorinated wipes every day and must clean our keyboards, mice and desk phones with them.
		
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But if only I use my keyboard, and I haven't got it, what's the point. Much more important to clean door handles in my view.


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## Russ_D (Mar 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've just seen a viral thread going round facebook (excuse the pun), supposedly written by a young medical researcher posted in Wuhan. Amongst other things, the post say:


Consuming hot drinks like tea will neutralise the virus
Regular face masks will stop it
To test if you have it, hold your breath for more than 10 seconds. If you do this without coughing, without discomfort or a sense of oppression then this shows there is no fibrosis in the lungs, indicating essentially no infection.
There you go. That's is for the people that will happily believe absolutely anything they read.

Although, I do have to admit, I've done the hold my breath test. I passed 

Click to expand...

Can hold my beath for at least 20 seconds and had 3 mugs of tea this morning so must be ok .
Plus our tech manager has a FLIR camera on his mobile and is checking temperatures quite a bit....yep he's a proper nerd!


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## Kellfire (Mar 11, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			But if only I use my keyboard, and I haven't got it, what's the point. Much more important to clean door handles in my view.
		
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The cleaners are handling that and they’ve told us they’re being asked to step up that sort of cleaning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

Chancellor's measures sound appropriate, comprehensive and good - though tbh - I've no real idea quite _how _good they might be.  They sound to be just what's needed...


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'll hold my hands up to that Tashy, and was also taken in by the stat that said although it was more contagious its mortality rate was lower. The stats released by the WHO today show that the mortality rate is currently 3.4% compared to less than 1% for seasonal flu.
		
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The worrying thing, no the Interesting for me is the graph I posted. It predicts next winter will be a lot worse than this. 😖


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 11, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Mrs wedge works at the local hospital, which puts her and me at higher risk. My company has forbidden all international travel, one lad at work self isolating for two weeks because his parents came over from Italy at the weekend . No, you couldn't make it up.

Was heading to Japan on vacation next week with a gang of friends, we have cancelled now due to pressures from employers re: travel, and any quarantine implications affecting our wider circles. Trying to decide on losing the flight money or rebooking later in the year on the assumption that travel won't be so much of an issue then.
		
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Held fast on flight cancellation because Lufthansa were only intent on refunding 20%. Today they cancelled the return flight, which means we get 100% back now.


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## larmen (Mar 11, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			The worrying thing, no the Interesting for me is the graph I posted. It predicts next winter will be a lot worse than this. 😖
		
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Could we have any kind of vaccine until then? And the people that had it, would they be immune and taken out of the carrier circle?


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## hovis (Mar 11, 2020)

larmen said:



			Could we have any kind of vaccine until then? And the people that had it, would they be immune and taken out of the carrier circle?
		
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a doctors on bbc said once you've had it once it's very unlikely to have it again but couldn't rule it out


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2020)

well the first affects for me are felt.. my new glasses I ordered I am having to pick a different frame as they cant get them here from italy atm.. could take 3 months 

also my medication is out of stock .. but that happens once every 3 months anyways since brexit was announced so might not be linked


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 11, 2020)

Got an email from golf club today advising us not to shake hands plus the club staff will be taking extra care with hygiene.
My wife has an autoimmune condition which makes her high risk therefore she is staying indoors as much as possible.
With the SNP health minister saying one third of NHS workers could contact the virus then they better get they're backsides out of independence, and do the job they're paid to do.
They could always turn the rusting ferry hulks at the Ferguson's ship yard into isolation areas.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Got an email from golf club today advising us not to shake hands plus the club staff will be taking extra care with hygiene.
My wife has an autoimmune condition which makes her high risk therefore she is staying indoors as much as possible.
With the SNP health minister saying one third of NHS workers could contact the virus then they better get they're backsides out of independence, and do the job they're paid to do.
They could always turn the rusting ferry hulks at the Ferguson's ship yard into isolation areas.
		
Click to expand...

Got one today.  Advises on hand shaking on 18th plus greeting club staff; hand disinfectant dispensers around the clubhouse, and other hygiene stuff.  Good 'duty of care' stuff


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			If it's still the season for it I highly recommend the whale watching trip, proper top stuff 👌
		
Click to expand...

That’s the only trip Ave looked at doing, oh and a round of golf on me birthday. Must be a sad old git coz it’s the whale watching am looking forward to. Don’t see many whales in Mansfield, well not the swimming type.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2020)

There’s been a confirmed case of Covid in Southwell, our. Ourse backs onto Southwell. Our club sec sent this out today.

To all members

Following advice from our Health & Safety advisors, please note the following:

*CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19)*


MEMBERS AND VISITORS MUST INFORM STAFF OF ANY KNOWN TRAVEL TO AREAS OF OUTBREAK OR IF THEY HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH INFECTED PEOPLE
COVER MOUTH AND NOSE WITH TISSUE OR SLEEVE WHEN COUGHING OR SNEEZING
PUT USED TISSUES IN THE BIN IMMEDIATELY
WASH HANDS WITH SOAP AND WATER THOROUGHLY AND FREQUENTLY
DO NOT TOUCH EYES, NOSE OR MOUTH WITH UNCLEAN HANDS
BE AWARE OF THE SYMPTOMS: SHORTNESS OF BREATH, COUGH, FEVER, FLU-LIKE SYMPTOMS
AVOID PERSON TO PERSON CONTACT
SELF-ISOLATION OF 14 DAYS ON SUSPECTED CONTACT OR SIGNS OF SYMPTOMS
IT IS BELIEVED THE CORONAVIRUS IS SPREAD THROUGH COUGH DROPLETS, ALTHOUGH MORE WORK IS BEING CARRIED OUT TO ESTABLISH THE EXACT METHODS OF SPREAD
CURRENT UK ADVICE IS THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN GO TO PUBLIC PLACES – BEING OUT IN THE FRESH AIR ON THE GOLF COURSE IS A SAFE PLACE TO BE (ALTHOUGH DON’T CELEBRATE THOSE HOLED PUTS WITH A HUG OR HIGH FIVE AND DON’T SHAKE HANDS AFTER THE GAME – YOU CAN STILL SAY, “THANKS FOR THE GAME” THOUGH!)


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2020)

larmen said:



			Could we have any kind of vaccine until then? And the people that had it, would they be immune and taken out of the carrier circle?
		
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I did think about the vaccine bit, but how do you produce enough vaccine for the world within 10 months when it rears it’s head again. Think Merkel has gone on record and said 70% of the Germany public could get it. Now figures Ave seen puts the death rate at 2% of people catching it. Predominantly elderly with underlying conditions. I believe Italy has the oldest population in Europe 👍☹️


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2020)

WHO now declared it a pandemic.


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## Mudball (Mar 11, 2020)

Been working from home this week... Yet to shave..   will save a few quids that I can use to buy bog rolls


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



*Been working from home this week... Yet to shave*..   will save a few quids that I can use to buy bog rolls
		
Click to expand...

To be honest I do that most weeks of the year. I knew eventually my tactic of avoiding having to interact with as many people as possible would become fashionable.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 11, 2020)

Apart from a day off yesterday I've done nothing but Coronavirus related admin and contingency planning since last Thursday. I'm now 3 days behind on "real" work.

If the schools close we're boned.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 11, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			WHO now declared it a pandemic.
		
Click to expand...

Why do we care what Rodger Daltrey thinks??


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## Old Skier (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I believe he has asked - I will tell him to do so if he has not.
		
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If he has a problem tell him to contact the CAB who in some areas have designated energy experts.


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## upsidedown (Mar 11, 2020)

AGM and do the next evening cancelled


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 11, 2020)

At this moment, it hasn't affected me at all.
By the time you read this, however, it might relocate me to the comfort of a brass urn.


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## Imurg (Mar 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Why do we care what Rodger Daltrey thinks??
		
Click to expand...

Well he is talking about his generation which are the ones most at risk....


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Got one today.  Advises on hand shaking on 18th plus greeting club staff; hand disinfectant dispensers around the clubhouse, and other hygiene stuff.  Good 'duty of care' stuff
		
Click to expand...

C'mon!  Duty of care stuff?   Who needs the golf club to advise you to do the obvious thing, I.e not shake hands. Anyone still thinks it should be done until some "authority " tells you to refrain! 
Obviously, parents etc-  advise the kids etc, 
But adults?
Talk about a nanny state!


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## Mudball (Mar 11, 2020)

India just banned everyone *including Indians *entry if you have been to some countries.   Just pray that your computer systems dont go down.  No one to pick up in Helpdesk - but they probably have your credit card details already

https://www.livemint.com/news/india...es-against-foreign-travel-11583948566541.html


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 11, 2020)




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## huds1475 (Mar 11, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The wealthy will bring it into our society and then the poor will suffer the effects more if it spreads. That’s not crap, it’s simply fact.
		
Click to expand...

Can you back up these facts, particularly in relation to the Coronavirus?

I prefer my facts supported by evidence. Unless, of course, they're FACTS about quality of The Old Course 👍


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## IainP (Mar 11, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s been a confirmed case of Covid in Southwell, our. Ourse backs onto Southwell. Our club sec sent this out today.

To all members

Following advice from our Health & Safety advisors, please note the following:

*CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19)*


MEMBERS AND VISITORS MUST INFORM STAFF OF ANY KNOWN TRAVEL TO AREAS OF OUTBREAK OR IF THEY HAVE BEEN IN CONTACT WITH INFECTED PEOPLE
COVER MOUTH AND NOSE WITH TISSUE OR SLEEVE WHEN COUGHING OR SNEEZING
PUT USED TISSUES IN THE BIN IMMEDIATELY
WASH HANDS WITH SOAP AND WATER THOROUGHLY AND FREQUENTLY
DO NOT TOUCH EYES, NOSE OR MOUTH WITH UNCLEAN HANDS
BE AWARE OF THE SYMPTOMS: SHORTNESS OF BREATH, COUGH, FEVER, FLU-LIKE SYMPTOMS
AVOID PERSON TO PERSON CONTACT
SELF-ISOLATION OF 14 DAYS ON SUSPECTED CONTACT OR SIGNS OF SYMPTOMS
IT IS BELIEVED THE CORONAVIRUS IS SPREAD THROUGH COUGH DROPLETS, ALTHOUGH MORE WORK IS BEING CARRIED OUT TO ESTABLISH THE EXACT METHODS OF SPREAD
CURRENT UK ADVICE IS THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN GO TO PUBLIC PLACES – BEING OUT IN THE FRESH AIR ON THE GOLF COURSE IS A SAFE PLACE TO BE (ALTHOUGH DON’T CELEBRATE THOSE HOLED PUTS WITH A HUG OR HIGH FIVE AND DON’T SHAKE HANDS AFTER THE GAME – YOU CAN STILL SAY, “THANKS FOR THE GAME” THOUGH!)


Click to expand...

Was the caps lock stuck on? 😉


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## Kellfire (Mar 11, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Can you back up these facts, particularly in relation to the Coronavirus?

I prefer my facts supported by evidence. Unless, of course, they're FACTS about quality of The Old Course 👍
		
Click to expand...

 Yes I can. And as you’re on the internet you could find them if you wanted. I’ll give you some clues - search for socioeconomic status pandemics on the search engine of your choosing.


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## howbow88 (Mar 12, 2020)

I'm meant to be going to Gdansk for my stag do next weekend, which I imagine will be cancelled. Not the end of the world. 

What is concerning me is that I am also due to go to Savannah, Charleston and then Augusta in a a few weeks for the Women's Amateur at Augusta National... I really hope that isn't cancelled! 

What I'm finding bizarre is the two sides to the coin on this. One half of the world seems to intent on shutting absolutely everything and having us all quarantined, yet the other half are pushing the idea that this is just some sort of bad cold and to stop panicking...

I can't help but think that the truth as usual lies somewhere in the middle. 

On a more important note though, my best mate has this ridiculously rare horrible disease, that basically means his immune system doesn't work. (It's named after two Nazis scientists that discovered it, so naturally we refer to it in conversation as Nazi Disease). He is very worried and is basically under house arrest for the foreseeable future.


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## howbow88 (Mar 12, 2020)

I also have a little bit of a cold, but my nose is a bit runny and when I cough, I'm coughing up phlegm. From what I have read online, that means I'm ok


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:




CURRENT UK ADVICE IS THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN GO TO PUBLIC PLACES – BEING OUT IN THE FRESH AIR ON THE GOLF COURSE IS A SAFE PLACE TO BE (ALTHOUGH DON’T CELEBRATE THOSE HOLED PUTS WITH A HUG OR HIGH FIVE AND DON’T SHAKE HANDS AFTER THE GAME – YOU CAN STILL SAY, “THANKS FOR THE GAME” THOUGH!)


Click to expand...

At least Koepka won't have to shake hands with Rory at the PGA


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## IanM (Mar 12, 2020)

Hope Porthcawl don't cancel the Winter Open next week, but in the scheme of things...that's insignificant. 

Workaholic in the office has a filthy cold (we hope) and he was sent home kicking and screaming yesterday.   

I'll keep working from home next week.  We're all Skyped up so no real need to be on site


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## Grant85 (Mar 12, 2020)

Things are getting extremely bad. I think we are now in a 4 to 6 week window where life is about to become not very enjoyable. 

In the UK...
I'd imagine the number of deaths is the big unknown - we are at 4,600 deaths worldwide. And not to be callous about it, but even if that figure reached 100,000 - it would still be very small in the context of global illnesses. 
Hundreds of companies will go bust. 
Thousands will lose their jobs. 
Millions of pounds will be wiped from people's pensions and investments. 
Probably 10% to 20% of the football league clubs will go bust or suffer serious financial hardship requiring recapitalisation. 
I'd imagine almost every airline in the world will reach & exceed the limit of their financial capacity. 
Probably the majority of tour operators and hotels will effectively run out of money within the next month. 

As I said, not to be dispassionate, but i still think there is a massive global over reaction to something that is effectively going to spread within the population regardless. People will get ill and the vast majority will recover and a number of people will die. The survivors will have developed a natural immunity to the virus and effectively it will become a trivial health issue within a few months. 

Of course we should take precautions, but that should involve using our resource to keep the sick and elderly out of harms way. Get them deliveries and pay a few weeks wages for them so they don't have to take risks. 

So the fact that's all going to happen and we're going to tank the global economy, ruin thousands of businesses and millions of livelihoods into the bargain seems like we are plunging our feet into boiling water to cure a headache.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Things are getting extremely bad. I think we are now in a 4 to 6 week window where life is about to become not very enjoyable.

In the UK...
I'd imagine the number of deaths is the big unknown - we are at 4,600 deaths worldwide. And not to be callous about it, but even if that figure reached 100,000 - it would still be very small in the context of global illnesses.
Hundreds of companies will go bust.
Thousands will lose their jobs.
Millions of pounds will be wiped from people's pensions and investments.
Probably 10% to 20% of the football league clubs will go bust or suffer serious financial hardship requiring recapitalisation.
I'd imagine almost every airline in the world will reach & exceed the limit of their financial capacity.
Probably the majority of tour operators and hotels will effectively run out of money within the next month.

As I said, not to be dispassionate, but i still think there is a massive global over reaction to something that is effectively going to spread within the population regardless. People will get ill and the vast majority will recover and a number of people will die. The survivors will have developed a natural immunity to the virus and effectively it will become a trivial health issue within a few months.

Of course we should take precautions, but that should involve using our resource to keep the sick and elderly out of harms way. Get them deliveries and pay a few weeks wages for them so they don't have to take risks.

So the fact that's all going to happen and we're going to tank the global economy, ruin thousands of businesses and millions of livelihoods into the bargain seems like we are plunging our feet into boiling water to cure a headache.
		
Click to expand...

The irony of pension pots suffering to a virus that's affecting the life expectancy of pensioners meaning their pot would be quids in...


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2020)

Unlike my Mrs, I am WFH and therefore doing the school run.  Nipper loves it as we listen to radio and make silly conversation.   With Mummy he has to finish his homework or practice his tables or something.
...   so major change for him..


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## williamalex1 (Mar 12, 2020)

The Scottish Golf Show has been cancelled, bye bye 3 rounds of cheap golf


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## Rlburnside (Mar 12, 2020)

Planned trip to Denmark postponed,apparently escalated quick with 1000 new cases in 24 hours,all schools closed for 14 days and gatherings of more than 100 banned


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## Russ_D (Mar 12, 2020)

Could be postponing all English League matches from today if cases reach 500 or more.


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## Beezerk (Mar 12, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Could be postponing all English League matches from today if cases reach 500 or more.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe closing schools and banning large gatherings later today according to Sky news.
At least the roads will be quieter lol.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

We are voting today on our Town Locality Plan - I will take my own pencil with me.

More seriously - I run and attend a good few meetings and discussion groups during any one week, and we are having to look at our personal interaction practices before, during and after these meetings - and also what physical separation we should adopt.  And of course we'll be looking at our practices of a Sunday morning...

This is difficult as interpersonal physical interactions are important.


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## Orikoru (Mar 12, 2020)

Dragged myself back into work today after having yesterday off with a cold. Emergency meeting first thing to outline what the business is doing in response to COVID-19. One of things is don't come in if you're ill even if it's just a cold. Oops - I'm already here now. 

Staff are encouraged to work from home if they're able to do so effectively, but our boss is of the opinion that we need an on-site presence so that's out the window. One thing they have made sure they do is to freeze bonuses and payrises due to foreseeing delays to projects. Nice of them.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2020)

Unfortunately can't work from home as it would be a massive security breach

However hoping they shut down the tube for a month would be lovely 

Let us clean it and do some blooming maintaince!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Just announced that Ireland are closing of all schools, colleges and childcare facilities - plus gatherings of 100 or more - until end of the month.  Can't be long for that to happen here.  Lunchtime?  Though PM has been advising that we wait for a week or two before we do that - worrying if he does announce a change in that policy.  Whatever the experts advise I trust and believe that we will do.   But it's going to be tough.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...es-and-childcare-facilities-to-shut-1.4200977


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If he has a problem tell him to contact the CAB who in some areas have designated energy experts.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks - I am sure he has asked his landlord as he spends a fortune on gas and electricity.

Separately - was there anything in the budget yesterday about what councils will do in respect of collecting Council Tax - it's a right bad 'un to be in arrears on. 

In fact the advice from debt charities is that paying council tax should take priority over anything else.  Other missed loan/CC etc payments will hit your Credit Record immediately - but these can be cleared or managed without too much of an issue.  Councils are utter swines in respect of missed Council Tax.


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## Robster59 (Mar 12, 2020)

A nice illustration and helpful to remind people to wash their hands.  
 With cold and flu season upon us, a School in the US decided to try a hygiene science experiment using Bread that they hoped would encourage students to wash their hands and spread fewer germs. 
 There is an untouched slice, one touched by unwashed hands & the others were handled by hands ‘cleaned’ with hand sanitiser & Soap & Warm Water. They then decided to rub a slice on all their classroom Chromebooks which they usually sanitise.
 They then left the bread to "go off" and you can see the bacterial growth on each slice dependant upon the level of cleanliness.  
 Correct hand washing was shown as the best method of keeping bacteria down.  Hand sanitizer alone doesn't do it.


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## Russ_D (Mar 12, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			A nice illustration and helpful to remind people to wash their hands. 
With cold and flu season upon us, a School in the US decided to try a hygiene science experiment using Bread that they hoped would encourage students to wash their hands and spread fewer germs.
There is an untouched slice, one touched by unwashed hands & the others were handled by hands ‘cleaned’ with hand sanitiser & Soap & Warm Water. They then decided to rub a slice on all their classroom Chromebooks which they usually sanitise.
They then left the bread to "go off" and you can see the bacterial growth on each slice dependant upon the level of cleanliness. 
Correct hand washing was shown as the best method of keeping bacteria down.  Hand sanitizer alone doesn't do it.
View attachment 29357

Click to expand...

Don't really fancy my sandwich now


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 12, 2020)

Trump has closed the US to all European flights other than from the UK for 30 days. My lad due to go to the States for 3 months in June to do an internship as part of his degree. Situation may change of course between now and then, hopefully, he'll still be able to go.


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## Kellfire (Mar 12, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			A nice illustration and helpful to remind people to wash their hands. 
With cold and flu season upon us, a School in the US decided to try a hygiene science experiment using Bread that they hoped would encourage students to wash their hands and spread fewer germs.
There is an untouched slice, one touched by unwashed hands & the others were handled by hands ‘cleaned’ with hand sanitiser & Soap & Warm Water. They then decided to rub a slice on all their classroom Chromebooks which they usually sanitise.
They then left the bread to "go off" and you can see the bacterial growth on each slice dependant upon the level of cleanliness. 
Correct hand washing was shown as the best method of keeping bacteria down.  Hand sanitizer alone doesn't do it.
View attachment 29357

Click to expand...

 That’s mould though?


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## Beezerk (Mar 12, 2020)

I'm starting to burn up at work but I think it may have been that dodgy looking pastie I had at 10 o clock.
Do you think I should self isolate regardless? 😷


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## Cherry13 (Mar 12, 2020)

I’ll be surprised if the players makes it to Sunday.  Can’t see how the f1 can go ahead now in light of Mclaren withdrawing.  Uefa aren’t going to be able to force real to play, I think all sport is pretty much going to stop for a period.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

A blanket closure of schools would reduce NHS capacity as parents stay home. Kids would be in the wider community unless isolation is also mandated.

It may be better to be more precise and allow 'crowd immunity' to develop but that means ensuring health care services have capacity.

Tricky balancing act.


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## User62651 (Mar 12, 2020)

We still have 0 cases in this region officially but it'll get here.

"Boris Johnson is killing us all. Close schools now!"    Not my words but the words of man with a can of spray paint in large letters on a site perimeter boarding on the A816 through Oban yesterday. I was driving past and noted the fellow with said can, he had just started, thought it slightly odd, came back along 20 minutes later to see all of the local constabulary arresting/restraining this person who was yelling some message. I hadn't seen any kind of public protest about this until then and it upped the ante a little for me.

Increasingly feel we are intentionally being protected to prevent panic.
I delved a bit deeper online into the Italian cases and it made quite grim reading. They are having to select who gets treated and who's too far gone to bother with . The lungs of victims stop working so they have to pump their blood round an oxygenating machine whilst waiting to see if the patients lungs can re-function if the body's immune system can fight off the virus.


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## Robster59 (Mar 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			That’s mould though?
		
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Yes, that's why I said bacteria.  It's not a definitive answer but it is illustrative of how the correct cleaning regime can reduce the risks of cross infection.


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2020)

Well, I'm off to sit in a metal box with a few people for the rest of the afternoon and evening....


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## Kellfire (Mar 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Well, I'm off to sit in a metal box with a few people for the rest of the afternoon and evening....

Click to expand...

Are you the first GM coronavirus patient?!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks - I am sure he has asked his landlord as he spends a fortune on gas and electricity.

Separately - was there anything in the budget yesterday about what councils will do in respect of collecting Council Tax - it's a right bad 'un to be in arrears on.

*In fact the advice from debt charities is that paying council tax should take priority over anything else*.  Other missed loan/CC etc payments will hit your Credit Record immediately - but these can be cleared or managed without too much of an issue.  Councils are utter swines in respect of missed Council Tax.
		
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I didn't hear anything on that front I'm afraid. You are absolutely correct about prioritising paying council tax. Not one to mess with


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## Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Are you the first GM coronavirus patient?!
		
Click to expand...

No i think he's just explaining the joys of being a driving instructor stuck in a car with the general public


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Only just properly understanding what tells if you have to self-isolate through exposure - if you have spent 15mins or more within 2m of someone later tested positive you have to self-isolate - and I also didn't realise that a cough or sneeze can stay in the air for ten minutes.  So if I spot someone coughing or spluttering then when he goes I don't really want to go stand where he was.


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No i think he's just explaining the joys of being a driving instructor stuck in a car with the general public
		
Click to expand...

Is the correct answer


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Also - with potential escalations soon to be with us my wife has still not had *anything* from the NHS or her previous Trust employer asking if she'd be available to work.   And I don't know why.  

The NHS and her Trust know who left service quite recently, and surely it is a simple letter or Email asking the key questions - are you available; where could you work; what could you do?  Just a bit of data gathering to inform their contingency and mitigation planning.

All very well not panicking us but this is obvious stuff...


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## IanM (Mar 12, 2020)

50 year old member of our Team went home yesterday with what looked like a really bad cold/flu.  He saw his GP today who confirmed it was NOT the virus........they also said he was currently more poorly than he would be if he had the virus!   That's sort of reassuring.  It's the v oldies that need to be careful


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2020)

HiD is supposed to be going North to her aged parents at the weekend...maybe, maybe not..


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## Kellfire (Mar 12, 2020)

I was supposed to be seeing NF this Saturday but he’s now cancelled.


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## Beezerk (Mar 12, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I was supposed to be seeing NF this Saturday but he’s now cancelled.
		
Click to expand...

Nigel Farage?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Also - with potential escalations soon to be with us my wife has still not had *anything* from the NHS or her previous Trust employer asking if she'd be available to work.   And I don't know why. 

The NHS and her Trust know who left service quite recently, and surely it is a simple letter or Email asking the key questions - are you available; where could you work; what could you do?  Just a bit of data gathering to inform their contingency and mitigation planning.

All very well not panicking us but this is obvious stuff...
		
Click to expand...

Because this is still scaremongering. At present, we have approx 20 off the roster self isolating but we are working to full capacity and managing perfectly well. Once the virus takes hold. there are plans withing our emergency plans at the trust based on PHE and government advised received about getting additional staffing resources. At this time it simply isn't required.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			HiD is supposed to be going North to her aged parents at the weekend...maybe, maybe not..
		
Click to expand...

Jeremy Vine touched on this on his radio show yesterday, he is in the same position. There was no clear answer but it may be that visiting is not the best bet if they are in that vulnerable category. One to think carefully about and perhaps delay for the time being. No issue in visiting a younger person but that is not the description given. Food for thought.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because this is still scaremongering. At present, we have approx 20 off the roster self isolating but we are working to full capacity and managing perfectly well. Once the virus takes hold. there are plans withing our emergency plans at the trust based on PHE and government advised received about getting additional staffing resources. At this time it simply isn't required.
		
Click to expand...

My wife doesn't see it as scaremongering as the boss of the team she used to work in has told her that they would - in worst case situation - have to go onto the wards. Which as as you have said.

All she is saying is that every nurse who has recently left the service knows that there could be a call put out for their support - Johnson has already said that. So surely it's prudent contingency planning to simply gather the information that would support any such eventuality. That's all.  Nothing more required.

But if the call out is not realistically going to happen, then Johnson shouldn't perhaps have set that hare running in my wife's mind.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife doesn't see it as scaremongering as the boss of the team she used to work in has told her that they would - in worst case situation - have to go onto the wards. Which as as you have said.

All she is saying is that every nurse who has recently left the service knows that there could be a call put out for their support - Johnson has already said that. So surely it's prudent contingency planning to simply gather the information that would support any such eventuality. That's all.  Nothing more required.

But if that isn't realistically going to happen then Johnson shouldn't perhaps have set that hare running in my wife's mind.
		
Click to expand...

It is already in our trust contingency for major incidents involving COVID-19 and there are plans to contact people on an as and when basis but until more details are released from PHE and the government it is felt the rosters each ward has at our trust is sufficient (and with additional scope for an increase in capacity)


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## sunshine (Mar 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Nigel Farage?
		
Click to expand...

More likely National Front


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## Kellfire (Mar 12, 2020)

sunshine said:



			More likely National Front
		
Click to expand...

Nathan Feuerstein.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2020)

BREAKING NEWS...
Diane Abbott has self isolated in a room with 15 other people.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2020)

My cousin's work in insurance 

Apparently her boss is about to announce those who don't wish to travel don't have to

All working from home will be accepted without question for the foreseeable


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## JollyRedDevil (Mar 12, 2020)

Just heard from my son that Manchester Uni have stopped all face to face lectures, on-line only. His Uni (Nottingham Trent) have told him that it is only a matter of time, maybe next week, that they will close.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

Perspective...

So for the UK  over the last 4 months about - 30,000 people tested; 600 confirmed and 10 deaths; those who died have been elderly suffering underlying conditions.

Last year about 9,333 people died from Road Accidents over the same time period !!


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Perspective...

So for the UK  over the last 4 months about - 30,000 people tested; 600 confirmed and 10 deaths; those who died have been elderly suffering underlying conditions.

Last year about 9,333 people died from Road Accidents over the same time period !!
		
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But road accidents happen over a 12 months period and don't increase exponentially quickly over a very short period. It's the acceleration of people with underlying health issues all being springboarded into the NHS in one fail swoop.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It is already in our trust contingency for major incidents involving COVID-19 and there are plans to contact people on an as and when basis but until more details are released from PHE and the government it is felt the rosters each ward has at our trust is sufficient (and with additional scope for an increase in capacity)
		
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I guess my wife's concern is that whilst she wants to support her old team to provide basic business continuity (through telephone support of BC patients during their treatment) if they need it - her current employer (she works on a charity BC helpline) may ask her to up her commitment and she doesn't want to do that if her old team needs her. Anywho - we'll see.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 12, 2020)

JollyRedDevil said:



			Just heard from my son that Manchester Uni have stopped all face to face lectures, on-line only. His Uni (Nottingham Trent) have told him that it is only a matter of time, maybe next week, that they will close.
		
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My son just told me similar. UHI  considering closing, no details on how long or plans in place as yet, just something being considered.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			BREAKING NEWS...
Diane Abbott has self isolated in a room with 15 other people.
		
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Clearly then the 15 people don't understand what self-isolation means


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## pendodave (Mar 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Perspective...

So for the UK  over the last 4 months about - 30,000 people tested; 600 confirmed and 10 deaths; those who died have been elderly suffering underlying conditions.

Last year about 9,333 people died from Road Accidents over the same time period !!
		
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This is absolute hogwash.
According to official figures (National Statistics, Reported road casualties in Great Britain, annual report: 2018), 1784 fatalities occurred in the whole of 2018.
So you're more than a whole order of magnitude, and about 20 times out....
it's this sort of fake news, and its constant repetition, that explains so much of the nonsense we see and hear everyday.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			But road accidents happen over a 12 months period and don't increase exponentially quickly over a very short period. It's the acceleration of people with underlying health issues all being *springboarded *into the NHS in *one fail swoop*.
		
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There is no need for such emphasis or hike. 
It is a serious issue but I was just trying to get away from the emotive language and gain some perspective. What I said was 9333 road deaths *over 4 months*, its about 30,000 a year.


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2020)

Son had a routine Dr appointment at the hospital.. its routine & can be moved.   So expected to be told so.  Called the appt line and they said that it is still happening and about £150 if i cancel.

So off we went to hospital.  The consultants seem fairly relaxed and no one walking around in masks (yet).  Gels everywhere and most are empty (as usual).  I guess we should not panic


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Son had a routine Dr appointment at the hospital.. its routine & can be moved.   So expected to be told so.  Called the appt line and they said that it is still happening and about £150 if i cancel.

So off we went to hospital.  The consultants seem fairly relaxed and no one walking around in masks (yet).  Gels everywhere and most are empty (as usual).  I guess we should not panic
		
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Someone died at our hospital today from it

We have our 12 week scan next Thursday can't be moved I don't think


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is no need for such emphasis or hike.
It is a serious issue but I was just trying to get away from the emotive language and gain some perspective. What I said was 9333 road deaths over 4 months, *its about 30,000 a year*.
		
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mmmmm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_Road_Casualties_Great_Britain  Chinny reckon.....


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## pendodave (Mar 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is no need for such emphasis or hike.
It is a serious issue but I was just trying to get away from the emotive language and gain some perspective. What I said was 9333 road deaths *over 4 months*, its about 30,000 a year.
		
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It isn't. It's 1784. You are so far off it's ridiculous. I quoted the source above. You are not giving a perspective by making numbers up


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2020)

Interesting article, big gamble  https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-12...boris-johnsons-maverick-coronavirus-strategy/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

pendodave said:



			It isn't. It's 1784. You are so far off it's ridiculous. I quoted the source above. You are not giving a perspective by making numbers up
		
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Methinks simply a misread (I've done it myself)

https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/fatality-estimates


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## rulefan (Mar 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Interesting article, big gamble  https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-12...boris-johnsons-maverick-coronavirus-strategy/

Click to expand...

Only Peston making another unhelpful criticism. It is worth noting that he finished with _"None of which is to argue that Johnson, Cummings, Hancock, Whitty and Vallance are wrong"._ 
and _"But it does warrant a proper national debate"._ Between whom do you suppose? Is he suggesting a referendum following a series of TV shows featuring anyone who has a view on the matter?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Only Peston making another unhelpful criticism. It is worth noting that he finished with _"None of which is to argue that Johnson, Cummings, Hancock, Whitty and Vallance are wrong"._
and _"But it does warrant a proper national debate"._ Between whom do you suppose? Is he suggesting a referendum following a series of TV shows featuring anyone who has a view on the matter?
		
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Peston looking to create havoc , surely not. Come ask the people of the NE what they feel about him. Not a lot of love for the man for what he did regarding Northern Rock. Opportunistic.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 12, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Only Peston making another unhelpful criticism. It is worth noting that he finished with _"None of which is to argue that Johnson, Cummings, Hancock, Whitty and Vallance are wrong"._
and _"But it does warrant a proper national debate"._ Between whom do you suppose? Is he suggesting a referendum following a series of TV shows featuring anyone who has a view on the matter?
		
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I think he was trying to say it is possibly worth debating/questioning/examining our approach versus other countries, but it will be impossible to tell what the right approach is until it has played out.  But he also maybe making an unhelpful criticism of dear leader in which case he should be banned from our screens and made to read the Telegraph for a week.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Peston looking to create havoc , surely not. Come ask the people of the NE what they feel about him. Not a lot of love for the man for what he did regarding Northern Rock. Opportunistic.
		
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Peston's thinking maybe coming out of the Bloomberg report on the role of the Behavioral Insights Team in #10.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...h-your-hands-britain-s-strategy-to-beat-virus


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## pendodave (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Methinks simply a misread (I've done it myself)

https://www.nsc.org/road-safety/safety-topics/fatality-estimates

Click to expand...

There's some interesting "counties" in that report...Alaska, California....


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## rulefan (Mar 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			.... no one walking around in masks (yet).
		
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I would hope not. They don't actually do anything useful in this situation unless you count helping to contain the moisture droplets breathed out by someone who has the virus. I would expect the professional staff are more intelligent than to walk about with the infection.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Peston's thinking maybe coming out of the Bloomberg report on the role of the Behavioral Insights Team in #10.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...h-your-hands-britain-s-strategy-to-beat-virus

Click to expand...

Or he is just whipping up a potential scoop / story. Not sure he worries about the consequences when a good story is to be had. I think you are giving him too much credit.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

pendodave said:



			It isn't. It's 1784. You are so far off it's ridiculous. I quoted the source above. You are not giving a perspective by making numbers up
		
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You are right. I meant to include the serious casualties and the load on NHS. 

Sorry.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I would hope not. They don't actually do anything useful in this situation unless you count helping to contain the moisture droplets breathed out by someone who has the virus. I would expect the professional staff are more intelligent than to walk about with the infection.[/QUOTE

Those with beards amuse me. The NHS stops bearded personnel working where masks are needed.
		
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## rulefan (Mar 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think he was trying to say it is possibly worth debating/questioning/examining our approach versus other countries,.
		
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But who and how many should be in that debate? Will 500 experts in different fields really come up with a better idea? Aren't the advisers already the experts? Do we laymen get to have our say in this debate? Perhaps Peston should concentrate on thinking things through.


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## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2020)

Peston is one of the biggest bell ends I've ever heard. Whether its on finances, politics or this current crisis... seriously, there are millions of people out there who have a far better grasp of things and don't need to blow their own trumpet to get the message out there.


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## Mudball (Mar 12, 2020)

Boris doing a Churchill impression...  We will fight Corona on the beaches, pubs, nhs..


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 12, 2020)

The press conference I have seen from Boris and the two scientists was measured and well done. The sense is there to be heard.
Come the questions , I heard the first two women tv journalists and theirs were as useful as a chocolate teapot.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 12, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			A nice illustration and helpful to remind people to wash their hands. 
With cold and flu season upon us, a School in the US decided to try a hygiene science experiment using Bread that they hoped would encourage students to wash their hands and spread fewer germs.
There is an untouched slice, one touched by unwashed hands & the others were handled by hands ‘cleaned’ with hand sanitiser & Soap & Warm Water. They then decided to rub a slice on all their classroom Chromebooks which they usually sanitise.
They then left the bread to "go off" and you can see the bacterial growth on each slice dependant upon the level of cleanliness. 
Correct hand washing was shown as the best method of keeping bacteria down.  Hand sanitizer alone doesn't do it.
View attachment 29357

Click to expand...

Much of my working days involved using chemical processes... Which led to an obsession of cleaning hands regularly... Largely prompted by a large poster, at one workplace, of a gentleman's appendage riddled with dermatitis... Kind of focuses you to keep 'em clean before and not just after taking a leak...


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## Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The press conference I have seen from Boris and the two scientists was measured and well done. The sense is there to be heard.
Come the questions , I heard the first two women tv journalists and theirs were as useful as a chocolate teapot.
		
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Absolutely agree with you. I thought the whole press conference by Boris and the 2 medical/science boffins was very well carried out and shows that they don't want unnecessary panic and speculation causing more issues. 

Then the journos and their scare mongering questions begin and thats what sadly they focus on rather than rhe facts


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## Dan2501 (Mar 12, 2020)

Yeah, they did well. It's pretty obvious from the infection numbers that we're a decent distance behind the likes of Italy, and the steps they're putting in place appear to make sense and at this stage are sensible. If they can implement the delay phase successfully we should be in a much better position than Italy and China, I just hope it pans out how they plan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

I thought that that was a sobering but very informative press conference, and that our Prime Minister struck exactly the right tone and displayed exactly what I'd hope from him - he exceeded my expectations massively.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2020)

I think the way this will affect me after Saturday I may avoid overtime 

Keep going to work as little as possible


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## IainP (Mar 12, 2020)

Slight diversion. HID fancied a takeaway of Chinese style food. Drove to one - "closed due to unforeseen circumstances". Drove to next,  never seen it so quiet .
Hopefully just coincidences


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2020)

IainP said:



			Slight diversion. HID fancied a takeaway of Chinese style food. Drove to one - "closed due to unforeseen circumstances". Drove to next,  never seen it so quiet .
Hopefully just coincidences
		
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Had one Saturday night 

Ordered 18:25

Arrived 18:45


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Absolutely agree with you. I thought the whole press conference by Boris and the 2 medical/science boffins was very well carried out and shows that they don't want unnecessary panic and speculation causing more issues.

Then the journos and their scare mongering questions begin and thats what sadly they focus on rather than rhe facts
		
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I think the journos did exactly the right thing with their questions - they had to push the experts and Johnson to the limits of speculation, and _that _is required so that the experts can answer that speculation, and we have the information to counter such as Farage on LBC at the moment casting doubt left, right and centre over the advice of the experts.

Quite disgracefully Farage is picking holes in the words of the Chief Medical and Scientific Officers; thereby undermining the views of the experts and in doing so trying to make himself sound clever by undermining confidence in these same experts.  Unlike my view of Johnson which has gone up significantly in the last 2hrs - Farage continues to plumb the depths.


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## Dando (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			BREAKING NEWS...
Diane Abbott has self isolated in a room with 15 other people.
		
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You know the pant wetters will moan about taking the piss out of Saint Diane abacus


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## Dando (Mar 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought that that was a sobering but very informative press conference, and that our Prime Minister struck exactly the right tone and displayed exactly what I'd hope from him - he exceeded my expectations massively.
		
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Who’s Hacked into silh’s account? 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2020)

IainP said:



			Slight diversion. HID fancied a takeaway of Chinese style food. Drove to one - "closed due to unforeseen circumstances". Drove to next,  never seen it so quiet .
Hopefully just coincidences
		
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We had one on Saturday night. We mentioned this at work, tea break time, just chatting. One of the staff looked at me, 'ooo, we are not having Chinese takeaways at the moment, just to be sure' 😳😳. Honestly, those were her words.

It took me a few seconds to take that in and then a few more to formulate my reply so that it didn't include blithering idiot or other such phrases. The general public...........................


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Perspective...

So for the UK  over the last 4 months about - 30,000 people tested; 600 confirmed and 10 deaths; those who died have been elderly suffering underlying conditions.

Last year about 9,333 people died from Road Accidents over the same time period !!
		
Click to expand...

here’s another perspective. Angela Merkel the chancellor of Germany has said that 70% of Germans will get the virus. 80 odd million people live in Germany. Thats over 50 million expected to get the virus. The death rate is 2% on average. That’s over 1 million that could pop there clogs. At the moment the death rate is about 7% in Italy.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

I agree with the plans made by the government - after the debacle of the HoC and Brexit it is a very welcome, confidence boosting example of logic.

IMO those countries that have rushed with wide bans are in danger of a backlash from citizens who, after a few weeks will become casual, reactionary and start ignoring the controls.


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## Reemul (Mar 12, 2020)

Yes a really good presentation and lots of relevant and useful information.

I think one issue is people want it over and done with as quick as possible and feel if we implement all the things required it will be over sooner and they can move on with their lives. In reality rushing this is going to make things worse as we will not be able to cope with larger numbers in a short space of time, like Italy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			here’s another perspective. Angela Merkel the chancellor of Germany has said that 70% of Germans will get the virus. 80 odd million people live in Germany. Thats over 50 million expected to get the virus. The death rate is 2% on average. That’s over 1 million that could pop there clogs. At the moment the death rate is about 7% in Italy.
		
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To an extent it depends on who catches the virus. If it is the young, middle aged and largely healthy then the rate will be lower. If it is the elderly and those with health problems then it could be scary. Hopefully, as the numbers are currently low in this country, we can cocoon the elderly and vulnerable as we have prior warning. They will have to take extra precautions but at least we have the knowledge and time, hopefully to largely do that.

The worst case scenarios are grim indeed.

Is there a reason why the Italian figure is so high?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To an extent it depends on who catches the virus. If it is the young, middle aged and largely healthy then the rate will be lower. If it is the elderly and those with health problems then it could be scary. Hopefully, as the numbers are currently low in this country, we can cocoon the elderly and vulnerable as we have prior warning. They will have to take extra precautions but at least we have the knowledge and time, hopefully to largely do that.

The worst case scenarios are grim indeed.

Is there a reason why the Italian figure is so high?
		
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I think the major factor is that Italy has one of the highest ages in the world through a healthy Mediterranean diet. ☹️

Me dads got “a bit of Luekemia“. He has also had a triple by pass. I could bloody scream. I have told them not to go out if it’s not urgent. He said he understands. He’s gotta go coz he is gonna nip out for some potato’s.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2020)

Dando said:



			You know the pant wetters will moan about taking the piss out of Saint Diane abacus
		
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I think throughout this a bit of leg pulling is what the country needs.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 12, 2020)

The death rate of 2% is based on confirmed cases. As the Chief Medical Officer said earlier what they don't know is how many people get it and don't show symptoms or show only minor symptoms. Depending on how high that number it also massively affects the death percentage.

EDIT - Just seen this from the Chief Scientific Officer.....

"There have been 596 confirmed cases across the country. However, the actual number of people infected could be between 5,000 and 10,000, the government's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said".

10 deaths out of 596 confirmed cases is 1.7% death rate. 10 deaths out of 10000 cases is 0.1% death rate.


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## drdel (Mar 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To an extent it depends on who catches the virus. If it is the young, middle aged and largely healthy then the rate will be lower. If it is the elderly and those with health problems then it could be scary. Hopefully, as the numbers are currently low in this country, we can cocoon the elderly and vulnerable as we have prior warning. They will have to take extra precautions but at least we have the knowledge and time, hopefully to largely do that.

The worst case scenarios are grim indeed.

Is there a reason why the Italian figure is so high?
		
Click to expand...

Pure speculation but a few thoughts..
Average age is high
Municipal cleanliness isn't that thorough, (Public Health Inspectors a bit lax on restaurants/cafes etc)
Personal cleanliness is a bit 'French'!
Housing in narrow streets
Warm weather....


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## User20204 (Mar 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			The death rate of 2% is based on confirmed cases. As the Chief Medical Officer said earlier what they don't know is how many people get it and don't show symptoms or show only minor symptoms. Depending on how high that number it also massively affects the death percentage.

EDIT - Just seen this from the Chief Scientific Officer.....

"There have been 596 confirmed cases across the country. However, the actual number of people infected could be between 5,000 and 10,000, the government's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance said".

10 deaths out of 596 confirmed cases is 1.7% death rate. 10 deaths out of 10000 cases is 0.1% death rate.
		
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Are you referring only to the UK in regards the %age of mortality ? If so cool however, world wide the %age is now at 7% of confirmed cases.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			here’s another perspective. Angela Merkel the chancellor of Germany has said that 70% of Germans will get the virus. 80 odd million people live in Germany. Thats over 50 million expected to get the virus. The death rate is 2% on average. That’s over 1 million that could pop there clogs. At the moment the death rate is about 7% in Italy.
		
Click to expand...

They were asked about that at the News Conference by a Journo and in response were told our “worst case” projections were higher than the German one, but that’s purely what it was a worst case projection and they are looking at every possible outcome, good and bad.

I thought the News Conference was excellent and stayed on facts, pointless “guessing” what may or may not happen. It is the “guessing” that is causing the worry and over-reactions from people.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 12, 2020)

Dando said:



			You know the pant wetters will moan about taking the piss out of Saint Diane abacus
		
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You’re missing the point mate, it’s the fact that she’s the only one Tashy uses for his jokes, which in turn become mundane and unfunny.

No one is saying she’s a saint, just change the tune, just like SILH keeps getting told over boris and brexit.


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## User20204 (Mar 12, 2020)

Dan2501 said:



			Yeah, they did well. It's pretty obvious from the infection numbers that we're a decent distance behind the likes of Italy, and the steps they're putting in place appear to make sense and at this stage are sensible. If they can implement the delay phase successfully we should be in a much better position than Italy and China, I just hope it pans out how they plan.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry but I have to disagree. We should be implementing the measures that China and Italy have now cause we will have to sooner or later. Public ban on gatherings of over 500 not until Monday, seriously wtf, why not now, do they think it'll run and hide at the threat of a public ban come Monday.


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## User20204 (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			here’s another perspective. Angela Merkel the chancellor of Germany has said that 70% of Germans will get the virus. 80 odd million people live in Germany. Thats over 50 million expected to get the virus. The death rate is 2% on average. That’s over 1 million that could pop there clogs. At the moment the death rate is about 7% in Italy.
		
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It was mentioned two weeks ago that around 50 - 80 percent of the population will be infected, Merkel saying that isn't news. The worldwide death percentage is 7%.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They were asked about that at the News Conference by a Journo and in response were told our “worst case” projections were higher than the German one, but that’s purely what it was a worst case projection and they are looking at every possible outcome, good and bad.

I thought the News Conference was excellent and stayed on facts, pointless “guessing” what may or may not happen. It is the “guessing” that is causing the worry and over-reactions from people.
		
Click to expand...

Without panicking anyone, the train of thought is that we are about 3-4 weeks behind Italy. SHOULD that be the case I think people need to think they may well be in a situation where they cannot get out of the house. So what would you need. It’s not an answer that needs answering in the next 24 hrs. You have 3 weeks to make plans.
That said I had to chuckle, all the shelves are empty of toilet rolls etc. Yet there’s loads of bleach left on the shelves. Cleaning and killing of germs in not high on folks priorities.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Without panicking anyone, the train of thought is that we are about 3-4 weeks behind Italy. SHOULD that be the case I think people need to think they may well be in a situation where they cannot get out of the house. So what would you need. It’s not an answer that needs answering in the next 24 hrs. You have 3 weeks to make plans.
That said I had to chuckle, all the shelves are empty of toilet rolls etc. Yet there’s loads of bleach left on the shelves. Cleaning and killing of germs in not high on folks priorities.
		
Click to expand...

Did you see the press conference?
It was explained why we are doing what we are and it came across very well.

Slight undertones of (imo) digs at Merkel and trump.

Reasons for the delay were explained by graphs etc and the bottom line, people get bored quickly, so by delaying draconian measures which may not work made sense.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 12, 2020)

Italians have the answer :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238150866890260480


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They were asked about that at the News Conference by a Journo and in response were told our “worst case” projections were higher than the German one, but that’s purely what it was a worst case projection and they are looking at every possible outcome, good and bad.

I thought the News Conference was excellent and stayed on facts, pointless “guessing” what may or may not happen. It is the “guessing” that is causing the worry and over-reactions from people.
		
Click to expand...

Without panicking anyone, the train of thought is that we are about 3-4 weeks behind Italy. SHOULD that be the case I think people need to think they may well be in a situation where they cannot get out of the house. So what would you need. It’s not an answer that needs answering in the next 24 hrs. You have 3 weeks to make plans.
That said I had to chuckle, all the shelves are empty of toilet rolls etc. Yet there’s loads of bleach left on the shelves. Cleaning and killing of germs in not high on folks priorities.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 12, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Are you referring only to the UK in regards the %age of mortality ? If so cool however, world wide the %age is now at 7% of confirmed cases.
		
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Apologies, yes that was only UK cases as they were the figures that I had to hand. But again worldwide mortality rate (thanks for that, that was the phrase I was looking for and it sounds so much better than "death rate") will be based on confirmed cases and will be much lower when unconfirmed cases are taken into account.

NB - I'm not trying to diminish the seriousness of the situation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Without panicking anyone, the train of thought is that we are about 3-4 weeks behind Italy. SHOULD that be the case I think people need to think they may well be in a situation where they cannot get out of the house. So what would you need. It’s not an answer that needs answering in the next 24 hrs. You have 3 weeks to make plans.
That said I had to chuckle, all the shelves are empty of toilet rolls etc. Yet there’s loads of bleach left on the shelves. Cleaning and killing of germs in not high on folks priorities.
		
Click to expand...

So good you posted twice?


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## Jacko_G (Mar 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is no need for such emphasis or hike.
It is a serious issue but I was just trying to get away from the emotive language and gain some perspective. What I said was 9333 road deaths *over 4 months*, its about 30,000 a year.
		
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Utter tosh.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 12, 2020)

Email this evening that Santana's show at the O2 in March has been postponed.  Supposed to be going to the theatre on Monday, wonder if that will still be on?

If Bonamassa cancels in April I will be really hacked off.


----------



## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 12, 2020)

It affected my wife and I tonight when some timid friends cancelled dinner plans as they bunker down for the duration.
True, they're old, but so are we.
I wasn't desperate to see them, but I was hoping to not have to cook.

(I don't particularly enjoy cooking, but since I'm Italian and my wife is Irish, who the hell do you think is going to cook?)


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Email this evening that Santana's show at the O2 in March has been postponed.  Supposed to be going to the theatre on Monday, wonder if that will still be on?

If Bonamassa cancels in April I will be really hacked off.
		
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Judging by the number of tours being cancelled or postponed I think you'll be very lucky to see him this Spring..
Everyone's cancelling..left, right and centre.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Judging by the number of tours being cancelled or postponed I think you'll be very lucky to see him this Spring..
Everyone's cancelling..left, right and centre.
		
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You're such a little ray of sunshine... 

Think we made the right decision to drive back rather than stay over, probably wouldn't have got a refund on the hotel.


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## chrisd (Mar 12, 2020)

HID and I went into London today for an early afternoon tea and matinee tickets for Phantom. It was definitely quieter than normal . We decided not to do the fast train to St Pancras as we'd need then to go on the tube so we did the slow train to Charing Cross as we felt the tube would be the most likely place to catch something


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## williamalex1 (Mar 12, 2020)

Must admit I panicked a bit, rather than pick up my daughter and ex from the airport, I'm sending a taxi


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## hovis (Mar 12, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Must admit I panicked a bit, rather than pick up my daughter and ex from the airport, I'm sending a taxi 

Click to expand...

why not just wait in the car?


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## Kellfire (Mar 12, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Email this evening that Santana's show at the O2 in March has been postponed.  Supposed to be going to the theatre on Monday, wonder if that will still be on?

If Bonamassa cancels in April I will be really hacked off.
		
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 there’s no way that is happening.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 12, 2020)

hovis said:



			why not just wait in the car?
		
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I don't want to be in a confined space with them for any length of time. 
Both my ex wife and I are in the danger age group, i'm not that fond of her anyway lol


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## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I don't want to be in a confined space with them for any length of time.
Both my ex wife and I are in the danger age group, i'm not that fond of her anyway lol
		
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If you're not that fond of her you might have missed an opportunity to give her a wee cough...


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## Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I don't want to be in a confined space with them for any length of time.
Both my ex wife and I are in the danger age group, i'm not that fond of her anyway lol
		
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I'll give you my Ex's address, you can inform your ex wife she's welcome to go an self isolate with her😂


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## Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

Seems the oxygen thief's on Facebook are going into melt down because Boris had the audacity to be honest and say there will be more death's in vulnerable people, apparently he shouldn't be telling people the truth but should be telling us it will alo be ok, bloody snowflakes🙄


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## chrisd (Mar 12, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I don't want to be in a confined space with them for any length of time.
Both my ex wife and I are in the danger age group, i'm not that fond of her anyway lol
		
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Who, the daughter, ex or taxi driver ??


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## williamalex1 (Mar 12, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Who, the daughter, ex or taxi driver ??
		
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Guess  BTW , She was my 1st ex wife, quite touching really , but still, no touching allowed


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## Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

Looks like Arsenal won't be playing any games soon with Arteta confirmed as having the virus and first team being advised to self isolate


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is no need for such emphasis or hike. 
It is a serious issue but I was just trying to get away from the emotive language and gain some perspective. What I said was 9333 road deaths *over 4 months*, its about 30,000 a year.
		
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But this huge spike in cases in Italy is exactly what has overwhelmed the Italian health system.
I don't think it's overly emotive language it's exactly what the epidemiologists are predicting unless our preventive measures shallow out the spike.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 12, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Email this evening that Santana's show at the O2 in March has been postponed.  Supposed to be going to the theatre on Monday, wonder if that will still be on?

If Bonamassa cancels in April I will be really hacked off.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair, it's a sensible move. After all, Carlos is now well established in the vulnerable age category.  He'd not be wanting to catch anything off the hoi polloi... 😀


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 12, 2020)

Skiing trip to Austria next week is now off. Hotel emailed this evening cancelling booking, looks like the the authorities have taken the decision the season is now over and tourism industry shutting down.

Just need to see how this plays out with the airline now.

Need to break the news to my 6 year that his first ski trip is off, looking at 2 or 3 days at Glencoe or Nevis Range next week as a fallback.

Happened vey quickly today, got a mate currently in Austria and he was unaware of what was happening.


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## Hobbit (Mar 12, 2020)

All schools, fiestas, municipal buildings are now closed for the foreseeable. Some bars and shops have also closed. Shelves in the supermarkets are looking bare of some products. Face masks were in evidence by customers in some supermarkets yesterday. Handshakes and (Spanish) hugs/kisses are not happening.

Numbers of infected are up dramatically, and the mortality number is climbing correspondingly. Mortality rate is sitting around 3.5%, way below the 7.8% in Italy. Some countries, e.g. Sweden and Norway are showing mortality rates of less than 1% but probably due to the relatively low numbers of cases suggesting its early in the cycle there.

I'm out first thing to buy a few perishables but are limiting our going out for the next week. The bowling club was light on members for today's roll-up, and next week's league matches are expected to be cancelled. A couple of Opens scheduled for the next couple of weekends have also been cancelled.

Bearing in mind I'm the 3rd youngest at 61 the membership is in the at risk category, especially as a number seem to be on meds for all sorts of underlying conditions.


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## DanFST (Mar 12, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Looks like Arsenal won't be playing any games soon with Arteta confirmed as having the virus and first team being advised to self isolate
		
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I'd assume west ham have it too now then.


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## Wolf (Mar 12, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'd assume west ham have it too now then.






Click to expand...

Distinct possibility.. They're certainly gonna have to be tested and isolated. League need to make a decision.


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## Paperboy (Mar 13, 2020)

My private pension has lost a bit of money, but advised to put extra in if I can. For when the market starts recover.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2020)

I don't know why they cancelled the Grand Prix in Australia, they'll never catch anything driving at that speed.


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## Dando (Mar 13, 2020)

My firm have shut their New York office and there’s a few people from my office that are self isolating.

I imagine I’d be told to work from home  soon which is a problem as my useless IT department can’t get my laptop working as there’s an issue with the log in number generator software I need to use


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Seems the oxygen thief's on Facebook are going into melt down because Boris had the audacity to be honest and say there will be more death's in vulnerable people, apparently he shouldn't be telling people the truth but should be telling us it will alo be ok, bloody snowflakes🙄
		
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I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding what some people are trying to say in an attempt to drone on about snowflakes. Here's the editor of The Lancet who is probably putting the point in a slightly more understandable way 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238157609129181188


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			It affected my wife and I tonight when some timid friends cancelled dinner plans as they bunker down for the duration.
True, they're old, but so are we.
I wasn't desperate to see them, but I was hoping to not have to cook.

(I don't particularly enjoy cooking, but since I'm Italian and my wife is Irish, who the hell do you think is going to cook?)
		
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that round of golf with an Italian meal and a bottle of chianti is getting closer. 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			My private pension has lost a bit of money, but advised to put extra in if I can. For when the market starts recover.
		
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Hmmm.  Indeed.  But I have decided to ignore my pension pot for the time being. I have a 90yr old MiL; a vulnerable and worried wife and son with livelihood at risk - all of whom need my attention at the moment more than my pension - though I will ask our adviser if I might do something...worrying times


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding what some people are trying to say in an attempt to drone on about snowflakes. Here's the editor of The Lancet who is probably putting the point in a slightly more understandable way 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238157609129181188

Click to expand...

My wife is a nurse, working at the local hospital. She works in a clinic now, not on the wards any more, but that doesn't make us feel any better, she is still being exposed to the general populace on a daily basis.


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## Dando (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'll give you my Ex's address, you can inform your ex wife she's welcome to go an self isolate with her😂
		
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I’ll get my ex to join them as well 😂


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2020)

Has anyone found who to blame for the virus yet?
If not, can I nominate .........
Pastor Steven Andrew 
https://www.advocate.com/religion/2020/3/06/coronavirus-punishment-lgbt-sin-says-far-right-pastor


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## Dando (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Has anyone found who to blame for the virus yet?
If not, can I nominate .........
Pastor Steven Andrew 
https://www.advocate.com/religion/2020/3/06/coronavirus-punishment-lgbt-sin-says-far-right-pastor



Click to expand...

I thought people on here could spout some crap but this is a whole new level of batshit crazy


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## Papas1982 (Mar 13, 2020)

Dando said:



			I thought people on here could spout some crap but this is a whole new level of *batshit* crazy
		
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How apt.


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## ger147 (Mar 13, 2020)

I am working from home today so relying on gossip and heresay so far as there has been no official communication yet, but I've been told people have been unable to get into our office this morning as it's locked. The rumour is someone at work has tested positive for the Coronavirus.


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## bluewolf (Mar 13, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			My wife is a nurse, working at the local hospital. She works in a clinic now, not on the wards any more, but that doesn't make us feel any better, she is still being exposed to the general populace on a daily basis.
		
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My wife is also a Nurse, but working in the Community. She has already had several E Mails from the Trust informing her that there may be emergency measures that mean she will have to go back to Ward work. Bearing in mind she hasn't done any Ward work for over a decade, she's rightly concerned that this will expose her to situations she isn't experienced enough to deal with.


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## Orikoru (Mar 13, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			We are meant to be flying out to Bratislava in a couple of weeks for a long weekend so I'm just hoping nothing happens to get that cancelled at the minute.
		
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Mentioned it in the irritations thread, but our _return_ flight with Whizair has now been cancelled. Our outbound flight with Ryanair hasn't yet... but I'm sure it will be. If it isn't then that screws us over big time. I think we will lose money in having to cancel our accommodation as well unfortunately. This trip was for my wife's 30th so I'm gutted for her at the minute.


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## Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding what some people are trying to say in an attempt to drone on about snowflakes. Here's the editor of The Lancet who is probably putting the point in a slightly more understandable way 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238157609129181188

Click to expand...

Then your suspicion is absolutely wrong as I'm not talking about twitter or people who actually understand the situation, I'm talking about the actual muppets I see on Facebook that are taking the opportunity to blame Boris for the disease and then blaming him again for giving an honest press conference saying he shouldn't be telling us the truth , but these are the same posters blaming politicians for lying. Not merely an opportunity to post about snowflakes but an actual accurate assessment of what I've seen. But you carry on thinking you know best about 👍


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## Dando (Mar 13, 2020)

Some people in my office moaning were moaning today as their corporate day at Cheltenham courtesy of RSA was cancelled


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Has anyone found who to blame for the virus yet?
If not, can I nominate .........
Pastor Steven Andrew 
https://www.advocate.com/religion/2020/3/06/coronavirus-punishment-lgbt-sin-says-far-right-pastor



Click to expand...

Far right indeed, and indeed also a load of tripe and I suggest not at all representative of the views of most having a faith.


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## hovis (Mar 13, 2020)

I just can't get my head round governments decision around the world.  we have a deadly virus in China that's spreading like wild fire.  I know let's bring all them people back into our country!!!!!  at the time it initially broke out I remember saying "it's simple, no one leaves the country unless tested or had 14 days isolation".

that clearly is a massive task to undertake but look at where we are now.   if it was that simple to a thicko like me then why wasn't this carried out?


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## Orikoru (Mar 13, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Mentioned it in the irritations thread, but our _return_ flight with Whizair has now been cancelled. Our outbound flight with Ryanair hasn't yet... but I'm sure it will be. If it isn't then that screws us over big time. I think we will lose money in having to cancel our accommodation as well unfortunately. This trip was for my wife's 30th so I'm gutted for her at the minute.
		
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I contacted Ryanair live chat support, they said it will mostly likely be cancelled in the next two days and I should watch out for the email confirmation. That's that then. 

This really has been the worst year on record I think.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Far right indeed, and indeed also a load of tripe and I suggest *not at all representative of the views of most having a faith.*

Click to expand...

I know.
I'm sure there aren't any other faiths that would think that.........
Oops
https://www.advocate.com/religion/2...ovid-19-natures-revenge-against-pride-parades


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## Robster59 (Mar 13, 2020)

My daughter was due to go on a skiing holiday at the end of the month but she's had an email advising that the resort is now closed. 
My son works for a major finance company and first with Brexit and now with Covid-19, his job is crazy at the moment. 

Closer to home, my partner has type 2 diabetes and a heart condition and my father-in-law, who lives with us, is 87 and has vascular dementia and medical issues. So my worry is for them two.  For myself, I always say that having been brought up in Widnes, you build up a resistance to pretty much everything!  
Work is a movable feast.  A lot of my customers are in the Life Science sector and include hospitals, fertility clinics, research institutes, pharma companies, etc. so they are much more likely to prohibit people going into their facility. 
Our company only allows necessary staff in at the main offices, forbidden sharing of fleet cars and asking people to keep travelling to a minimum.  Given that we are sales, that is going to be a major issue.  The message we send out to customers gets modified on a daily basis to take into account the continuous changes to the situation.


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## Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I know.
I'm sure there aren't any other faiths that would think that.........
Oops
https://www.advocate.com/religion/2...ovid-19-natures-revenge-against-pride-parades

Click to expand...

Little bit sensationalist there Bob. Just because some people of faith will have a skewed view, doesn't mean all people following those same faiths are as backward in their thinking. Many within their own faiths will disagree with the sentiments of these far right thinkers.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Little bit sensationalist there Bob. Just because some people of faith will have a skewed view, doesn't mean all people following those same faiths are as backward in their thinking. Many within their own faiths will disagree with the sentiments of these far right thinkers.
		
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I know it's just a few fanatics.
But it is out there and because the pastor/priest/rabbi/Muhaddith says something, there are always those who will belive it's true.


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## Robster59 (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I know it's just a few fanatics.
But it is out there and because the pastor/priest/rabbi/Muhaddith says something, there are always those who will belive it's true.
		
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And those who want to believe it's true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

With my mathematical modelling hat on my feeling is that, as coronavirus will become endemic within the UK population, we have to look at what is to be achieved through application of different measures and the main objective is I suggest not about preventing the virus becoming endemic in the population.

We will all catch it - if not now then in the next year or two.  The important thing is to enable the NHS to cope with those seriously ill as a result of being infected and to build up resistance in the population so that the next outbreak can be controlled, with hopefully also a vaccine available.

So my instinct is that in this dynamic situation is that the initial position (numbers infected) and velocity (speed of growth) are not so important as the acceleration (rate of growth) that WILL happen in the next few weeks.  Current numbers are growing - but apparently not yet in an strongly exponential way - and the NHS can cope.  Those who do not become serious will develop immunity - and in itself that is valuable for the future and coming out the back end of this outbreak.  What is important I think is to dampen the acceleration when that is detected so that it is not exponential.  In situations where growth is relatively steady - measures to dampen acceleration might not be very effective.  So don't apply them until they are effective - else they might be less effective than they otherwise might be.  Meanwhile manage the growth, treat the seriously affected, get the measures ready for the acceleration and apply the measures immediately the start of the acceleration is detected.  And that point will be obvious as numbers reporting to the NHS with a more serious condition grow.

As an aside - I have heard from two separate sources - in different parts of the country - that their respective school head teachers have been advised that they are likely to be asked to shut school gates next Friday.  I don't think parents have been advised.  This timing would be consistent with an acceleration predicted to be starting very soon after.

But this is just my feeling.


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## Dan2501 (Mar 13, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I contacted Ryanair live chat support, they said it will mostly likely be cancelled in the next two days and I should watch out for the email confirmation. That's that then.

This really has been the worst year on record I think.
		
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Proper sucks that mate. We've got a holiday booked, flying out to Dominican Republic next Saturday, just praying we can still go, mega in need of a holiday! Optimistic as we're in this "delay" phase and the Dominican has very few cases at the minute (<10) but who knows what's going to happen over the next week.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I know it's just a few fanatics.
But it is out there and because the pastor/priest/rabbi/Muhaddith says something, there are always those who will belive it's true.
		
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We can say the same about any issue...as we have seen over the last few years in politics...so please let's just not go there with this religious extremist nonsense.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 13, 2020)

Norfolk, D&G and Highlands are the only non affected areas, for once poor road/rail air structure works to their advantage.
I live near the D&G border, perhaps go south for my shopping in future.


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## Sats (Mar 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			My wife is also a Nurse, but working in the Community. She has already had several E Mails from the Trust informing her that there may be emergency measures that mean she will have to go back to Ward work. Bearing in mind she hasn't done any Ward work for over a decade, she's rightly concerned that this will expose her to situations she isn't experienced enough to deal with.
		
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That's the emergency services for you, during the bombings/riots/bridge attacks everyone got out - just the way it is.


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## Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I know it's just a few fanatics.
But it is out there and because the pastor/priest/rabbi/Muhaddith says something, there are always those who will belive it's true.
		
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And some will use any subject to preach their dislike of people with faith. There are morons in all walks of life and equally as many are posting this virus was created because of 5G, that it was designed by America to attack Iran as biological warfare etc. 

This simply is the world we live in that people seek to blame things they don't understand. The religious fanatics or other idiots listed above should be ignored and focus should be on working as a collective to reduce the impact not finger pointing. Plus in a time like this of people with genuine faith want to say a little prayer to help them through a worrying time then why not, we could all use a little positivity right now.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			And some will use any subject to preach their dislike of people with faith. There are morons in all walks of life and equally as many are posting this virus was created because of 5G, that it was designed by America to attack Iran as biological warfare etc.

This simply is the world we live in that people seek to blame things they don't understand. The religious fanatics or other idiots listed above should be ignored and focus should be on working as a collective to reduce the impact not finger pointing. Plus in a time like this of people with genuine faith want to say a little prayer to help them through a worrying time then why not, we could all use a little positivity right now.
		
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I'm sorry, I've been told I can't discuss who's to blame any more


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## Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry, I've been told I can't discuss who's to blame any more
		
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Who has told you that.  I've not seen anyone on here say that. We all know where it originated.


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## Dando (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Who has told you that.  I've not seen anyone on here say that. We all know where it originated.
		
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I blame brexit!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 13, 2020)

I wonder how this is all going to effect the economy as a whole once it is all over, and how it will impact on peoples jobs individually?

Of course, public health is paramount. But, if the economy goes into freefall, what will happen to the nations health then?

I'd have thought incredibly strict measures could have been suggested to protect the most vulnerable in our society from this disease, but the rest of us told to carry on as normal (if we are all going to get it anyway, and we are unlikely to need hospital treatment). It does make me wonder if there is more to this disease than meets the eye. On one hand, it appears to be much much worse than the flu. On the other hand, any celebrity we hear that has contracted it seems to be "doing just fine in self isolation".


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 13, 2020)

OK now I know it's really serious - even the terrorists are taking precautions ..

ISIS leaflet gives 'religious directives' on tackling coronavirus for terrorists
Includes tips such as washing hands before eating and staying away from sick
A travel ban and covering mouth when coughing is also advised 
Jihadists told 'put your faith in God and seek refuge in him'


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2020)

Interesting to correlate the performance of the stock markets with the air quality in china. Wonder if this will cause us to slightly reassess societies KPIs?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I wonder how this is all going to effect the economy as a whole once it is all over, and how it will impact on peoples jobs individually?

Of course, public health is paramount. But, if the economy goes into freefall, what will happen to the nations health then?

I'd have thought incredibly strict measures could have been suggested to protect the most vulnerable in our society from this disease, but the rest of us told to carry on as normal (if we are all going to get it anyway, and we are unlikely to need hospital treatment). *It does make me wonder if there is more to this disease than meets the eye.* On one hand, it appears to be much much worse than the flu. On the other hand, any celebrity we hear that has contracted it seems to be "doing just fine in self isolation".
		
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I think it's the disease meeting your lungs and airways that you need to worry about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

And on crowds.  

I look at a crowd as a network.  The infected individual will only potentially infect those in immediate proximity - iwithin 2m - for 15minutes continuously, and we are told that is on average 2-3.  But these 2-3 infected individuals do not then immediately pass on the infection to those in similar proximity.  This is not like the zombie films when one person bitten is immediately a zombie and can bite it's neighbour.  

So where we are today I am not quite sure why what is currently only likely to be a handful of infected individuals in any crowd - even such as a football crowd - is going to make a significant impact to the outcome we desire - the NHS coping with what will become an endemic viral infection.  As per my previous post an individual in a crowd they will only infect others at a steady 'speed' say 3/infected individual/event.  And across the country in any infection network there are not that many events of 500+ size to be held in the coming couple of weeks, and these additional few infected individuals coming out of any one event do not increase the local network starting position significantly.

And with schools - don't close schools too early - and send children home to be looked after by their grandparents - when an infected child will build up a resistance, but will transfer the virus to a much more vulnerable and at risk grandparent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

As a little light-hearted aside - there will be a group of very knowledgeable board game geek pandemic control experts out there - as one of the most popular board games of the last ten years is _Pandemic_.  Players each take the role of one of various experts and work collaboratively to control a number of virus pandemic outbreaks.  What irony. 

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30549/pandemic


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## Orikoru (Mar 13, 2020)

Dan2501 said:



			Proper sucks that mate. We've got a holiday booked, flying out to Dominican Republic next Saturday, just praying we can still go, mega in need of a holiday! Optimistic as we're in this "delay" phase and the Dominican has very few cases at the minute (<10) but who knows what's going to happen over the next week.
		
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Hope you're ok, Dominican was lovely, we went there last year for a very late (two years late) honeymoon.


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## Russ_D (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As a little light-hearted aside - there will be a group of very knowledgeable board game geek pandemic control experts out there - as one of the most popular board games of the last ten years is _Pandemic_.  Players each take the role of one of various experts and work collaboratively to control a number of virus pandemic outbreaks.  What irony.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30549/pandemic

Click to expand...

Played this a while back with friends. Managed to wipe out most of the worlds population! I'm afraid we were very, very drunk


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

And sure enough across the Pond many with Health Insurance are complaining that their government is promising that no-one will have to pay to be assessed or tested for coronavirus - the complaint is going up - Why should those with no Health Insurance get for free what those with Health Insurance have paid for through their insurance premiums.  And that's the route relying on privatised Health Insurance can take us - if we let it.  

Love the NHS - _One for All and All for One   _


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## Reemul (Mar 13, 2020)

I do the school run daily. It is amazing how many kids are brought to school and colllcted by their grandparents. It is massive. My kids are collected 2 days a week by grand parents the other 3 by my wife and I.

Luckily my wife is a teacher so if schools close she is looking after them as well. But i know so many people who struggle through the school holidays let alone any additional time and most is covered by grandparents the most at risk group.

The government really will need to support all small and medium businesses to allow them to survive when people cannot work for whatever reason. My job is in insurance and I can work from home no problem as can the wife but so many people will not have this option and they will need it.

Scary times ahead i'm afraid


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## patricks148 (Mar 13, 2020)

penod- ricard anounced today their distillery visotor centres will close till further notice, which will effect out Advertising rev, no doubt the others will follow


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

Missis T has had her letter today from the NHS asking her to go back if required. Once she has stopped laughing al let you all know her answer


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## Piece (Mar 13, 2020)

I got some bog roll today!


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis T has had her letter today from the NHS asking her to go back if required. Once she has stopped laughing al let you all know her answer
		
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It’s really not a funny situation and it’s right that they act to try to ensure enough staff.


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## Rooter (Mar 13, 2020)

Trip to serbia next week has been cancelled, it was for an event i was speaking at. Serbian gov have banned indoor events hosting 100+ people.
We have cancelled two training courses we are hosting in london week after next, probably lose around $130k in gaap revenue.
was at the excel in london this week, the guys who set the stands up reckon next week will be the last events there and they heard rumours that will be until september! No idea where they got that from.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2020)

Due to play 2 finals next week, Thurs afternoon and Friday morning. Both brought forward as the Spanish Federation has advised closure of all clubs from Monday for 15 days. Finals tomorrow afternoon and Sunday morning. 

Supermarket shelves looking a little bare today, and the local market was very quiet.

On another note, residents trying to leave the 4 towns that are under lockdown are being threatened with a €60,000 fine.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Norfolk, D&G and Highlands are the only non affected areas, for once poor road/rail air structure works to their advantage.
I live near the D&G border, perhaps go south for my shopping in future.

Click to expand...

DFT, I read up on the Spanish flu a couple of months ago on Wikipedia. It was an excellent read. Bottom line is the the flu followed the travel routes. Back in the day of the flu it was ports  and railways. It travelled around the world with the exception of Australia who would not let anyone in. It started in the USA on an Army base, by the time some of the soldiers got to Europe to fight the war  is ships the incubation period meant some of the soldiers were already dead. With this incubation period you can now travel around the world a hundred times.


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## JamesR (Mar 13, 2020)

My GP has just had to go into self quarantine having dealt with a patient who turned out to be infected - so I won;t be going to the surgery for my asthma review this month.

Otherwise, no real affect, other than the office bringing in a no handshaking policy _(which most of us broke in the first day because shaking hands is 2nd nature when meeting clients)_


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2020)

Looks like sport is self isolating and ignoring Bojo's advice from yesterday afternoon.  Let's hope the rest of the governments advice lasts a bit longer.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looks like sport is self isolating and ignoring Bojo's advice from yesterday afternoon.  Let's hope the rest of the governments advice lasts a bit longer.
		
Click to expand...

Hardly ignoring 

Half the teams have a player with it so following correct advice


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## garyinderry (Mar 13, 2020)

Our council gyms and swimming pools have just announced they will be closed for the next two weeks. 

Likely be far longer. I fear this is only the beginning.


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2020)

Situation on lockdowns is changing rapidly. A number of towns in Murcia region now on lockdown.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Norfolk, D&G and Highlands are the only non affected areas, for once poor road/rail air structure works to their advantage.
I live near the D&G border, perhaps go south for my shopping in future.

Click to expand...

The BBC story is showing that there are more than just those three areas that haven't had any cases so far.....


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

now then, I think it’s fair to say that’s it s been alleged that Tashyboy can rattle on. So here’s another.

I posted on here a couple of days ago a graph showing that next year will be tougher than this. Obviously it meant nowt at the time because no one commented on it. I have posted on here that the German chancellor has said that 70% of Germans will get it. Again nowt was really said. It’s like it’s not sinking in.
Now the chief science officer to the Government is saying that this virus is going to come back year after year. And that “ Around 60% of the UK population will need to become infected with *coronavirus* in order for society to have "herd immunity" from future outbreaks, Sir Patrick Vallance said.
So that means that 6 out of ten need/ will get the virus. Again work out what the initial mortality rate will be. So it begs the question are you as well off getting the virus sooner rather than later. 
Fonna be an interesting few months ahead.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			The BBC story is showing that there are more than just those three areas that haven't had any cases so far.....

View attachment 29361

Click to expand...

I think it is acknowledged that there are many many more cases out there that we do not know about so these recorded stats are not very representitive.


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## Russ_D (Mar 13, 2020)

Pulled the short straw and doing the shopping tomorrow. Providing I can get bread and milk and basics (already got pasta and rice) i'm not too fussed.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 13, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			So it begs the question are you as well off getting the virus sooner rather than later.
		
Click to expand...

Vallance already answered this but possibly not clearly, it's what is meant by "flattening the curve". Because it is expected the majority of people will be infected, it needs to occur over a longer period of time. 

Say the population is 100 people. 60 people get the virus but you can only 'cure' 1 person a day. If only 1 person catches it every day over 60 days you can cure everyone. But if 60 people get it in one day, 59 will die.

Here is a good graphic illustration of the problem: https://miro.medium.com/max/1340/1*PZesaMfoPxgYJBoQVtpmjQ.gif


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 13, 2020)

Having listened intently to the advice from Boris and the health advisers, I can see the logic in what they are trying to do and also the hope that the warmer weather may play a part but I do feel the situation will become more fluid quicker than the predictions seem to indicate. I would imagine by next week schools will be shut as will most shops bar chemists and food stores.


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## Orikoru (Mar 13, 2020)

Our Sunday League game has been cancelled. But since we've already paid £145 for the pitch and they won't give us a refund, we'll be playing a friendly instead.


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## AdamW (Mar 13, 2020)

Masters postponed  https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/51875513 gives tiger some more time to recover!


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## AdamW (Mar 13, 2020)

What are people's thoughts on going to the gym?

Go as normal or avoid for a few weeks?


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## Orikoru (Mar 13, 2020)

AdamW said:



			What are people's thoughts on going to the gym?

Go as normal or avoid for a few weeks?
		
Click to expand...

Avoid as normal.


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## Russ_D (Mar 13, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Our Sunday League game has been cancelled. But since we've already paid £145 for the pitch and they won't give us a refund, we'll be playing a friendly instead. 

Click to expand...

Thats the spirit!! Have you got team branded hazmat suits?


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## Kellfire (Mar 13, 2020)

AdamW said:



			What are people's thoughts on going to the gym?

Go as normal or avoid for a few weeks?
		
Click to expand...

Wipe down that equipment profusely.


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## Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

AdamW said:



			What are people's thoughts on going to the gym?

Go as normal or avoid for a few weeks?
		
Click to expand...

You're gym should be providing correct sanitizer for spraying/wiping down all equipment along with adequate blue roll. Ensure you take your own towel to use and put down, wipe everything down when you leave as well. That's what all gyms i work in are doing but there is always people that don't bother. So my advice wipe down before you use it for peace of mind and again after you've used it as a courtesy to others. Basically what you should be doing even without the virus.


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## Orikoru (Mar 13, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Thats the spirit!! Have you got team branded hazmat suits? 

Click to expand...

Sadly not, but I'm sure I read something about over 60% alcohol to prevent contamination and most of our players fit that description on a Sunday morning.


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## Sats (Mar 13, 2020)

Wipe down the equipment and go to the gym. Only issue I have is getting some Gloves that can be washed after kickboxing training sessions.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 13, 2020)

I wipe down the machines with the spray they provide after use 

Not going to stop going


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2020)

Uncomfortable....


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Uncomfortable....

View attachment 29362

Click to expand...

Good job am 21 😷

Got radio on,.there playing Police " dont stand to close to me " 😳


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis T has had her letter today from the NHS asking her to go back if required. Once she has stopped laughing al let you all know her answer
		
Click to expand...

Interesting - my wife has not had one - and she is asking how long has yours been out of service?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting - my wife has not had one - and she is asking how long has yours been out of service?
		
Click to expand...

As I said yesterday each trust will have it's plan in place and timing will be dependent on when the peak arrives and how overrun each trust becomes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As I said yesterday each trust will have it's plan in place and timing will be dependent on when the peak arrives and how overrun each trust becomes.
		
Click to expand...

What she was interested in is how long has @Tashyboy's wife been out of the service - and she is also interested in her role.  

I get each trust will have it's own plan - though your thoughts suggest that @:Tashboy's wife's ex-Trust sees trouble very soon ahead - though the latter came from the NHS and perhaps not the Trust she worked in.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting - my wife has not had one - and she is asking how long has yours been out of service?
		
Click to expand...

3 years in July. Dont think she will take it up. We both have parents in late 70s-80,s. Have grandkids a lot. She dont see any benefits for her.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As I said yesterday each trust will have it's plan in place and timing will be dependent on when the peak arrives and how overrun each trust becomes.
		
Click to expand...

It defo will, but I think the trust needs to know in advance how many are prepared to return.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What she was interested in is how long has @Tashyboy's wife been out of the service - and she is also interested in her role.  

I get each trust will have it's own plan - though your thoughts suggest that @:Tashboy's wife's ex-Trust sees trouble very soon ahead - though the latter came from the NHS and perhaps not the Trust she worked in.
		
Click to expand...

Missis Ts speciality was urology, surgical and gynaecology. It was the trust that contacted her. 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Contacted a debt collection agency about a payment plan for council tax arrears my son has in place with them.  Asked what plans they have in place to help individuals cope if they lose income and are unable to meet a payment.  None.  And they have not had any guidance from any council about what to do.  They would ask for proof of loss of income and take it to the council and ask them what to do.  But as things are today they would still try and take the payment and if it failed it would be escalated to next stage of the process and could trigger a £200 charge.  I can see the council being able to cope with thousands of such request flooding in.    

And this could apply for anyone with a debt for with a debt collection agency - and would be more problematic were the agency to have bought the debt off the original creditor. 

Yes I know - just another little problem in the great scheme of things today that is little for some, but could be a very big problem for most with such debts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis Ts speciality was urology, surgical and gynaecology. It was the trust that contacted her. 👍
		
Click to expand...

OK - so the same sort of role as my Mrs - and if I may ask - how long has she been out of the service.  My Mrs is just wondering how far back a trust might be looking.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			It defo will, but I think the trust needs to know in advance how many are prepared to return.
		
Click to expand...

This is exactly what my wife was thinking.  How many are willing; in what sort of role; and where.


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## Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Contacted a debt collection agency about a payment plan for council tax arrears my son has in place with them.  Asked what plans they have in place to help individuals cope if they lose income and are unable to meet a payment.  None.  And they have not had any guidance from any council about what to do.  They would ask for proof of loss of income and take it to the council and ask them what to do.  But as things are today they would still try and take the payment and if it failed it would be escalated to next stage of the process and could trigger a £200 charge.  I can see the council being able to cope with thousands of such request flooding in.   

And this could apply for anyone with a debt for with a debt collection agency - and would be more problematic were the agency to have bought the debt off the original creditor.

Yes I know - just another little problem in the great scheme of things today that is little for some, but could be a very big problem for most with such debts.
		
Click to expand...

If it comes to mass shutdown I'm sure the government will be putting things in place to prevent the escalation of debts, lack of payments for finance and other bills. After all if people only get SSP they'll be well aware ofnthe economical impacts within households and to country as a whole. Much like what Italy have done.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is exactly what my wife was thinking.  How many are willing; in what sort of role; and where.
		
Click to expand...

Post 394 👍 just had a natter where missis Ts skills would fit in. Her skills.wouldnt, but basic NHS general nursing care is what the NHS would be after. It could would well mean that specialist wards would need to be set up.
A pal has said on fb that his mum is in a old.folks home..it has gone Into a 3 months lock down. No visitors.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Why does it seem so hard to understand the logic behind the delay tactic that is 'anyone with any sort of cold/viral symptom' should self-isolate for 7 days and we won't test'

This would cover everyone with the virus.  I don't need to know if I have the virus.  I might have it and if I do I'll hopefully get over it - if I don't then I've done my bit for the wider population by being part of the 7-day self-isolation strategy.

I don't see why we need to know exact numbers of 'how many have coronavirus' - if we want to know that number then a factoring up (based upon the standard ratio we know from experience in UK and other countries) the number of self-isolated that develop into a more serious condition will tell us - if we need to have some idea.  

If everyone with a symptom self-isolates as requested then all infected and infectious will be out of circulation whilst their infection runs it's course.  And of course that means they won't be in an event or other gathering.  

In addition, by not testing everyone who self-isolates, we are not wasting loads of testing effort on people who either don't have it or who will not develop a serious problems.  Testing can be directed at health professionals in the hospitals and those many thousands who will have contracted the virus and during their seven day self-isolation period become more serious - the test will tell medics who to treat for coronavirus and who need alternative treatments. We also then have those coming out of isolation without any serious outcome having built up resistance.

I don;t see it as that difficult to understand.  Maybe that's because I just _want _to understand it.  I dunno.


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## chrisd (Mar 13, 2020)

I heard an analyst in the radio say that the best answer was to take all the pensioners to the north of Scotland and everyone else to Kent, make sure everyone in Kent gets the disease and then they'll all be immune, bring back the oldies and they wont catch it! 

Will I be stationed near a decent course in Scotland ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Post 394 👍 just had a natter where missis Ts skills would fit in. Her skills.wouldnt, but basic NHS general nursing care is what the NHS would be after. It could would well mean that specialist wards would need to be set up.
A pal has said on fb that his mum is in a old.folks home..it has gone Into a 3 months lock down. No visitors.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies - missed that.  OK - my Mrs is two years end July, so she might be contacted.  And she has kept her NMC registration in place.  She would go back to help out her previous team (BC specialist nurses) but nothing else - she wouldn't do general nursing as it 30yrs since she's done any of that.  The specialist nurses in the team would go to the wards if necessary - they have been told.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			If it comes to mass shutdown I'm sure the government will be putting things in place to prevent the escalation of debts, lack of payments for finance and other bills. After all if people only get SSP they'll be well aware ofnthe economical impacts within households and to country as a whole. Much like what Italy have done.
		
Click to expand...

You'd hope so but I didn't her anything in the budget on that front - and of course many don't get any SSP.


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## Italian outcast (Mar 13, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I heard an analyst in the radio say that the best answer was to take all the pensioners to the north of Scotland and everyone else to Kent, make sure everyone in Kent gets the disease and then they'll all be immune, bring back the oldies and they wont catch it!

Will I be stationed near a decent course in Scotland ?
		
Click to expand...

I heard this as well - I think you can get on the list for the 'Aberdeen stalag'

All you have to do is _Follow The Donald _


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## Wolf (Mar 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You'd hope so but I didn't her anything in the budget on that front - and of course many don't get any SSP.
		
Click to expand...

Probably because it's separate from the budget, why would you want them to announce it before the event, would just end up with people trying to claim it before its required.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 13, 2020)

My club has just put out this :
Following the government press conference on the 12th March, the country is now waking up to the fact that Corona Virus (Covid 19) is not just an influenza virus.
The Board wishes to reassure the membership that it is taking every action possible to minimise the impact of the virus on the club, membership and staff.
At present the UK government is advising all businesses to have a contingency plan in place to deal with the challenges our business will obviously face in the coming weeks and months. This we have completed today
We have formed an action committee that in turn has formulated a comprehensive plan which recognises there will potentially be 3 levels of impact on our club. This plan could change on a weekly or even a daily basis according to government advice and direction.
As far as the member is concerned, any direct impact should be minimal.
We are taking steps to ensure the club and working environment is clean and hygienic. We will do this by –
•          Promoting regular and thorough hand-washing by everyone.
•          Providing all customers and staff with an alcohol-based hand rub.
•          Encouraging people to use and bin tissues.
•          Staff regularly spraying all door handles, push plates and door knobs, machinery handles with anti-bacterial spray.
•          Covering all bar food with a cover (closhe)
•          Staff regularly cleaning all surfaces with anti-bacterial spray
Over the next few days, staff working schedules will be altered in order to protect them as much as possible from cross infection, and also enable us to keep the club open and operating the business as usual.
As a member we would ask you to take every precaution so that you keep abreast of government advice which is “anybody experiencing a new persistent cough, or have a high temperature should self-isolate for 7 days”.
There will be potentially serious financial implications for all golf clubs and ours will be no different. Whilst we are confident that the club has enough financial strength to withstand this situation, we do need to ensure that we have enough capital available, to pay staff and essential costs during a period when our income may be substantially reduced. This means temporarily cutting back on some of the development projects that had been planned and other costs that can be deferred.  This situation will be reviewed once the “peak” has been reached and we can feel confident that the worst is over.
Aside from that, one of the safest places to be is out in the countryside which is what our wonderful sport offers us.
Please don’t be a stranger!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 13, 2020)

Only in America 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238110096334479364


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## Imurg (Mar 13, 2020)

London Marathon postponed until October


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2020)

Why not give the whole country 2 weeks off.
Stay at home with the family
Shut Dover
Problem sorted


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## Italian outcast (Mar 13, 2020)

is this the sign of things to come -- an OAP backlash? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238471787953954817


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Probably because it's separate from the budget, why would you want them to announce it before the event, would just end up with people trying to claim it before its required.
		
Click to expand...

Because many will currently be worried about how they will meet their DD and other payment commitments and may be contacting those they have the payment plans in place with asking what can be done for them.  Such as banks have already announced payment holidays.  Other lenders maybe also.  Councils with Council tax?  Credit cards?   Debt Collection agencies? Golf Clubs ?

Let's see what happens - but whatever it is, however big it is, it is going to happen.


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## IanM (Mar 13, 2020)

Sun has shone all afternoon..... therefore in the absence of direct instruction from _Boris' Boffins_, the front and back lawns have had their first cut of the year!    I say lawn, but with all the rain, the _north facing_ front is mainly moss!


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## larmen (Mar 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Why not give the whole country 2 weeks off.
Stay at home with the family
Shut Dover
Problem sorted
		
Click to expand...

That might work ... if you never ever open Dover again.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

Imurg said:



			London Marathon postponed until October
		
Click to expand...

gutted thought I would break my time this year, for watching it. 🤗


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## Hobbit (Mar 13, 2020)

***Spain declares a national state of emergency with effect from midnight tonight - 15 days, which may be extended***

*Travel is to be monitored and limited to essential journeys only - this can include a grocery shop - expect to be stopped!*

*All businesses to close from midnight tonight, with only essential staff manning essential service industries.*

*No panic buying - limits set to how much you can walk out of the supermarket with.*

*Areas under lockdown to be jointly policed by the Guardia and the army.*

Just back from visiting friends 30 miles away. The lockdown is already being set up in areas where it doesn't already exist. And driving past the local kiddies park and seeing guys in masks spraying the swings/climbing frame etc came as a huge shock.

This has suddenly got very real, and very disquieting!


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



***Spain declares a national state of emergency with effect from midnight tonight - 15 days, which may be extended***

*Travel is to be monitored and limited to essential journeys only - this can include a grocery shop - expect to be stopped!*

*All businesses to close from midnight tonight, with only essential staff manning essential service industries.*

*No panic buying - limits set to how much you can walk out of the supermarket with.*

*Areas under lockdown to be jointly policed by the Guardia and the army.*

Just back from visiting friends 30 miles away. The lockdown is already being set up in areas where it doesn't already exist. And driving past the local kiddies park and seeing guys in masks spraying the swings/climbing frame etc came as a huge shock.

This has suddenly got very real, and very disquieting!

Click to expand...

Come what May Hobbit, stay safe 👍


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

https://news.sky.com/video/coronavirus-italians-sing-through-covid-19-lockdown-11957255

Italians doing what they do best.Singing.

What they singing about Italian outcast.


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## Robster59 (Mar 13, 2020)

The government four stage strategy


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2020)

Contender for tweet of the year.......


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## Piece (Mar 13, 2020)

Premier League football off. Kids football off. Kids training off. May have to pick up the golf clubs or do some DIY!


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## chellie (Mar 13, 2020)

AdamW said:



			What are people's thoughts on going to the gym?

Go as normal or avoid for a few weeks?
		
Click to expand...

I'm still going. Was there Wednesady. today and there for 9.00am tomorrow. Big plus for me is that all the people I've moaned about before for not wiping down are now doing it.


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## Slime (Mar 13, 2020)

Piece said:



			Premier League football off. Kids football off. Kids training off. May have to pick up the golf clubs or do some DIY!
		
Click to expand...

National League games are still going ahead!


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## AmandaJR (Mar 13, 2020)

chellie said:



			I'm still going. Was there Wednesady. today and there for 9.00am tomorrow. Big plus for me is that all the people I've moaned about before for not wiping down are now doing it.
		
Click to expand...

Wish I could say the same. Gym covered in signs about wiping down and the 4 meatheads today obviously figured it didn't mean them.


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## chellie (Mar 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Wish I could say the same. Gym covered in signs about wiping down and the 4 meatheads today obviously figured it didn't mean them.
		
Click to expand...

Arrgh, that's not good at all. Bet you wanted to spray them with the spray.


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## Piece (Mar 13, 2020)

Heard that MotD is being replaced by Mrs Brown Boys. Is there no end to the Covid-19 torment?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Wish I could say the same. Gym covered in signs about wiping down and the 4 meatheads today obviously figured it didn't mean them.
		
Click to expand...

😳 you go to the same Gym as Missis T.


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2020)




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## Fish (Mar 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:









Click to expand...

Are China still exporting goods?


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## bluewolf (Mar 14, 2020)

Fish said:



			Are China still exporting goods?
		
Click to expand...

They’d better be or British manufacturing will be in free fall! We’ve got ships arriving weekly from China. We’d be shut without them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 14, 2020)

Beginning to fear for our holiday in Greece second week in June - though in truth that seems rather incidental and not such a big deal given where things are today 🙁


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 14, 2020)

Fish said:



			Are China still exporting goods?
		
Click to expand...

Yes they are. Not at full pelt as there is not full movement yet in China so the factories are only partly functioning.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 14, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Contender for tweet of the year.......

View attachment 29365

Click to expand...

think this one out does it


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2020)

Piece said:



			Heard that MotD is being replaced by Mrs Brown Boys. Is there no end to the Covid-19 torment?
		
Click to expand...

Some of the footy has been funnier than that.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Just having to slightly change every day life

My nan has cancelled family tea around hers tomorrow as she doesn't want everyone round. Completely understand 

Monday's my daughter goes to soft play we have said no more for now as it's filthy anyways 

Same with her groups for now 

Not sure about mother's Day etc as my nan was joining us, and was wife's nan is joining us for breakfast so see if they still want to. 

Wife is still at work for now unless they close schools then she's home

Shopping ATM proving hard but we managed to get enough for couple weeks and everytime we walk past a Tesco we can get like 2/10 items so just means pop in more to get all 10 items but that's hardly a hard ship

I've set up online order for Sainsbury's for Wednesday to try and get daughter's baby wipes .. their going stupidly high priced because everyone's buying them ATM so will see

Same again next year when Brexit hits 🤣


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## Tashyboy (Mar 14, 2020)

As I prepare to leave this " green and pleasant land" for mexico in 30 mins. Thoughts are with you all. Just remember if you do catch it. It dont mean you are a leper and outcast by society. Behave for fragger and focus on this thread coz the football one could be quiet for a few months.
Operation unbearable has now had a free transfer to this thread.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			As I prepare to leave this " green and pleasant land" for mexico in 30 mins. Thoughts are with you all. Just remember if you do catch it. It dont mean you are a leper and outcast by society. Behave for fragger and focus on this thread coz the football one could be quiet for a few months.
Operation unbearable has now had a free transfer to this thread.
		
Click to expand...

at least if they banned all flights whilst your out there you would be stuck in a beautiful part of the world

have a nice holiday


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 14, 2020)




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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 14, 2020)

Managed to get my 95 year old mum into a care home this week which was a huge relief.
Our daughters and a family member in the know are telling us to self isolate for a fortnight which I think we will do. My wife has some health problems but not really respiratory, just to be on the safe side.
I really do not know what to make of this, being critical, worldwide deaths are still below the population of Slough so in the big scale of things it should not be a massive problem. I just get the feeling we are not being told the full story.


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## pendodave (Mar 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I just get the feeling we are not being told the full story.
		
Click to expand...

I don't particularly feel this way. I think there's lots of things that people don't know, but that's not the same as hiding it. For me, the biggest problem is the huge number of people who know nothing at all making a great deal of noise and making it hard to figure out what's real.


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## User62651 (Mar 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Managed to get my 95 year old mum into a care home this week which was a huge relief.
Our daughters and a family member in the know are telling us to self isolate for a fortnight which I think we will do. My wife has some health problems but not really respiratory, just to be on the safe side.
I really do not know what to make of this, being critical, worldwide deaths are still below the population of Slough so in the big scale of things it should not be a massive problem. I just get the feeling we are not being told the full story.
		
Click to expand...

My mother is 92, generally quite fit for her age and lives on her own, wont move, she just had a nasty norovirus which really flattened her and has had pneumonia in the past. If she gets corona it'll finish her I think. Very difficult to tell her not to let people in as she's very sociable. Having seen her neighbour and good friend just die over a miserable 2 year cancer struggle she said this week if corona gets her at least it'll be relatively quick, seems to be how she sees it. Trying to get her to minimise contact with people but I'm wasting my time.

wrt the full picture there is a degree of unprecedentedness with this virus in terms of it's spread, 96% matches a bat virus and seems to have come from bats and by chance finds humans a better host. It kills by turning up the body's immune system so hard it ends up in multiple organ failure, if it doesn't drown you first through pneumonia. Mortality is 7% in italy and 1% in Korea, no-one is sure why that is.
I dont think we're not being told anything important, just they'll need months to get a vaccine tested and produced. Until then I'm not sure how it can be completely eradicated as it's worldwide and hot/cold weather will alternate between hemispheres. You can read about how it kills everywhere online so that's not hidden, may have been a bit of trying not to put the fear and panic into everyone from govt but these days you can't keep anything secret.

Feels like it's caught us on the hop, we all saw the China pictures months ago yet didn't really think it would be a big problem for us or we put our heads in the sand.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 14, 2020)

Government guide to the use of experts just in. 

Coronavirus - They are to be trusted implicitly and can be used to shift the blame onto if things go wrong

Brexit - Don't trust so called experts.


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## User62651 (Mar 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Government guide to the use of experts just in.

Coronavirus - They are to be trusted implicitly and can be used to shift the blame onto if things go wrong

Brexit - Don't trust so called experts.
		
Click to expand...

So true.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 14, 2020)

Work wise We have been spoken to about short time work if business drops off .
If we feel unwell ring doc take 3 days off . U will b paid once u have doc reciept .
We can take holidays or unpaid leave .

I asked what if a family member has symptoms and i dont . Do i come in or not ?  if they not paying me.  im coming in . Cant afford not to .. blank stare response

I just threw in could they not take it outa my  bonus   From wages they saved  when manager left (not replaced yet) and other guy went sick for 15 weeks .. all purchase and sales targets met .. blank stare was response. Again .

Loadsa experts til u want an answer


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## AmandaJR (Mar 14, 2020)

Brother's ski trip to Austria cancelled as all ski resorts closing this weekend.

US based sister travelling back today and their half full flight is now full - get home whilst you can!

Nephew's boss has been tested and suspected to have it so he's self isolating for 7 days.

It's a worrying time. Personally fit and healthy so not worried about catching it rather than the worldwide effects (stock markets, economies etc).


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## bladeplayer (Mar 14, 2020)

Home wise .
88 yr old mam alota medical problems . Hopefuly my bro who lives at home doesnt get it   .. grandkids not calling down is what she will miss most .

Eldest girl in spain for college . She staying put   living outa the town , sun and pool . 4 of her house sharing pals on way home . Spanish family who own house are great..

Looking from across the water and whats going on in mainland europe it genuinely looks like yer Gov burying their heads ib hope
Not saying theyr wrong we are right by the way
No idea how diff so called experts of the world can use such differrnt tactics


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			My mother is 92, generally quite fit for her age and lives on her own, wont move, she just had a nasty norovirus which really flattened her and has had pneumonia in the past. If she gets corona it'll finish her I think. Very difficult to tell her not to let people in as she's very sociable. Having seen her neighbour and good friend just die over a miserable 2 year cancer struggle she said this week if corona gets her at least it'll be relatively quick, seems to be how she sees it. Trying to get her to minimise contact with people but I'm wasting my time.

wrt the full picture there is a degree of unprecedentedness with this virus in terms of it's spread, 96% matches a bat virus and seems to have come from bats and by chance finds humans a better host. It kills by turning up the body's immune system so hard it ends up in multiple organ failure, if it doesn't drown you first through pneumonia. Mortality is 7% in italy and 1% in Korea, no-one is sure why that is.
I dont think we're not being told anything important, just they'll need months to get a vaccine tested and produced. Until then I'm not sure how it can be completely eradicated as it's worldwide and hot/cold weather will alternate between hemispheres. You can read about how it kills everywhere online so that's not hidden, may have been a bit of trying not to put the fear and panic into everyone from govt but these days you can't keep anything secret.

Feels like it's caught us on the hop, we all saw the China pictures months ago yet didn't really think it would be a big problem for us or we put our heads in the sand.
		
Click to expand...

^^^ The estimated mortality figures are generally reckoned to be much too high. Current rates are largely based on the Chines situation and based on the number of reported/confirmed positive cases where there was a significant delay in tests and since for many people the illness can be mild these will not have been counted; so the 'denominator' in the estimates may be substantially higher. This is estimated to mean the 'true' rate may be at least half !!


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2020)

Took advantage of the "permission to travel" locally to supermarkets. The queues weren't to bad but the meat counter and bog roll shelves were bereft of product. With the tinned meats, tuna, baked beans and soups we now have 2 weeks worth of food bar bread beyond the 24th, and milk beyond the 26th.

A random irritation; HID asking "should we get 1 tin of beans or 2?" … "er, how about getting 6!"
Random irritation #2; "should we get 1 tin of tuna or 2?".... "er, how about 4!"

And random irritation #3; HID strolling around like its a gentle walk in the park. Half the people shopping arrived from northern Spain last night, the traffic on the motorway last night was mental, running from Spain's epicentre/bringing it south.


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## User62651 (Mar 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			^^^ The estimated mortality figures are generally reckoned to be much too high. Current rates are largely based on the Chines situation and based on the number of reported/confirmed positive cases where there was a significant delay in tests and since for many people the illness can be mild these will not have been counted; so the 'denominator' in the estimates may be substantially higher. This is estimated to mean the 'true' rate may be at least half !!
		
Click to expand...

Yes should have said % of those diagnosed, appreciate many people will just ride it out at home and not be 'counted'.


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Took advantage of the "permission to travel" locally to supermarkets. The queues weren't to bad but the meat counter and bog roll shelves were bereft of product. With the tinned meats, tuna, baked beans and soups we now have 2 weeks worth of food bar bread beyond the 24th, and milk beyond the 26th.

A random irritation; HID asking "should we get 1 tin of beans or 2?" … "er, how about getting 6!"
Random irritation #2; "should we get 1 tin of tuna or 2?".... "er, how about 4!"

And random irritation #3; HID strolling around like its a gentle walk in the park. Half the people shopping arrived from northern Spain last night, the traffic on the motorway last night was mental, running from Spain's epicentre/bringing it south.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the 'panic' is infectious and even normally reasonable and sensible people are forced to put themselves first. Its not helped by the media dragging Tom, Dick and Harry out to rubbish the qualified medics just to make a story rather than helping provide rational guidance and information.


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately the 'panic' is infectious and even normally reasonable and sensible people are forced to put themselves first. Its not helped by the media dragging Tom, Dick and Harry out to rubbish the qualified medics just to make a story rather than helping provide rational guidance and information.
		
Click to expand...

Not exactly panic, but in the local pub last night I was nebbing a conversation and they were suggesting millions had actually died in China, the Chinese government were covering the whole thing up. I had to interject and call it BS 🙈


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			Work wise We have been spoken to about short time work if business drops off .
If we feel unwell ring doc take 3 days off . U will b paid once u have doc reciept .
We can take holidays or unpaid leave .

I asked what if a family member has symptoms and i dont . Do i come in or not ?  if they not paying me.  im coming in . Cant afford not to .. blank stare response

I just threw in could they not take it outa my  bonus   From wages they saved  when manager left (not replaced yet) and other guy went sick for 15 weeks .. all purchase and sales targets met .. blank stare was response. Again .

Loadsa experts til u want an answer
		
Click to expand...

You'd best hope you don't ever need an 'expert' surgeon....


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## Kellfire (Mar 14, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Not exactly panic, but in the local pub last night I was nebbing a conversation and they were suggesting millions had actually died in China, the Chinese government were covering the whole thing up. I had to interject and call it BS 🙈
		
Click to expand...

I definitely believe the Chinese government will be hiding the extent of their problem. It’s all too convenient that they’re claiming to have it under control.


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I definitely believe the Chinese government will be hiding the extent of their problem. It’s all too convenient that they’re claiming to have it under control.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe, but what they were claiming last night was unrealistic. If millions had died of it in China why haven't millions also died around the world?


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2020)

Jet2 have now cancelled all flights to Spain, Canaries etc with planes already in the air being turned back.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			Jet2 have now cancelled all flights to Spain, Canaries etc with planes already in the air being turned back.
		
Click to expand...

Yip mum and dad have just had their month away cancelled this morning.


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## DaveR (Mar 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Took advanpermission to travel" locally to supermarkets. The queues weren't to bad but the meat counter and bog roll shelves were bereft of product. With the tinned meats, tuna, baked beans and soups we now have 2 weeks worth of food bar bread beyond the 24th, and milk beyond the 26th.

A random irritation; HID asking "should we get 1 tin of beans or 2?" … "er, how about getting 6!"
Random irritation #2; "should we get 1 tin of tuna or 2?".... "er, how about 4!"

And random irritation #3; HID strolling around like its a gentle walk in the park. Half the people shopping arrived from northern Spain last night, the traffic on the motorway last night was mental, running from Spain's epicentre/bringing it south.
		
Click to expand...

Made me think of this sketch, I bet that tin of tuna will get eaten now


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Can't find proper information anywhere but do you work during a lockdown?

In Italy I read they can go to and from work only but dunno how true it is

I know public transport is running there so I would have to work..doesn't bother me

Just wondering


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## Hobbit (Mar 14, 2020)

Seriously though, if someone needs 4 massive multipacks of toilet rolls they should have seen a doc long ago.

Coat got, I'm off, or I would be if we weren't on lockdown.... shamelessly stolen


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 14, 2020)

With my ski trip to Austria cancelled this week 3 nights in Fort William beckons and hoping the wind doesn't shut the lifts at Glencoe and Nevis.


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## User20204 (Mar 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I definitely believe the Chinese government will be hiding the extent of their problem. It’s all too convenient that they’re claiming to have it under control.
		
Click to expand...

China have totally shutdown towns and cities where there were large outbreaks, they also had huge testing going on, that is how they have managed to bring their numbers down, remember they are easily 3 months ahead of us, and  we should be doing now what they have been doing for mnths, cause we are going t be in the same boat very shortly.


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2020)

saving_par said:



			With my ski trip to Austria cancelled this week 3 nights in Fort William beckons and hoping the wind doesn't shut the lifts at Glencoe and Nevis.
		
Click to expand...

Luckily got mine in during Jan was going to book a last minute this week so that's binned. Unfortunately The Who in April postponed, hope they stay alive long enough to reschedule.


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## Old Skier (Mar 14, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			China have totally shutdown towns and cities where there were large outbreaks, they also had huge testing going on, that is how they have managed to bring their numbers down, remember they are easily 3 months ahead of us, and  we should be doing now what they have been doing for mnths, cause we are going t be in the same boat very shortly.
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't match the manpower or strict obedience that they have in China.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1238518371651649538
We don't need to match China. This is our plan


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## DanFST (Mar 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Can't find proper information anywhere but do you work during a lockdown?

In Italy I read they can go to and from work only but dunno how true it is
g
		
Click to expand...

You can go to work, HID's father goes across the border to Switzerland also with no problem.

How has it affected me: 
- Supposed to be going to Portugal for a golf trip next weekend, let's see if that goes ahead! 
- Barbados first week of may, i'm assuming is a no go. 
- Working from home, no problem, I can also walk to the office in 5 minutes if really needed. 

So nothing for me really.


HID is from Lombardy and stressing, can't see family and can't help in anyway. Italy really is FUBAR at the moment.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 14, 2020)

saving_par said:



			With my ski trip to Austria cancelled this week 3 nights in Fort William beckons and hoping the wind doesn't shut the lifts at Glencoe and Nevis.
		
Click to expand...

When I used to ski I always preferred going to Glenshee.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			You can go to work, HID's father goes across the border to Switzerland also with no problem.

How has it affected me:
- Supposed to be going to Portugal for a golf trip next weekend, let's see if that goes ahead!
- Barbados first week of may, i'm assuming is a no go.
- Working from home, no problem, I can also walk to the office in 5 minutes if really needed.

So nothing for me really.


HID is from Lombardy and stressing, can't see family and can't help in anyway. Italy really is FUBAR at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

I can imagine no golf will be allowed. Or gym so for me that's all my activities outside of work 

Other than that I'll be working 

Keep the Mrs off work unpaid for child care 

Smash the overtime for those who can't get in


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## Slime (Mar 14, 2020)

Sky Sports Golf Channel.
WE KNOW THE PLAYERS HAS BEEN CANCELLED AND WE KNOW WHY.
Please show reruns of the Ryder Cup from Medinah or Paris ................................ please.


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## Slime (Mar 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



*I can imagine no golf will be allowed.* Or gym so for me that's all my activities outside of work
Other than that I'll be working
Keep the Mrs off work unpaid for child care
Smash the overtime for those who can't get in
		
Click to expand...

Why?
Plenty of fresh air without the close proximity of groups of people.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Can't find proper information anywhere but do you work during a lockdown?

In Italy I read they can go to and from work only but dunno how true it is

I know public transport is running there so I would have to work..doesn't bother me

Just wondering
		
Click to expand...

I sent shipments to two separate customers in Italy last week. Both were working normally. One is in the Milan region and had to provide confirmation to the carrier that they would be open to take delivery but other than that it is business as usual. The govt are trying to stop the spread but not cripple the economy. It's a tough balancing act.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			When I used to ski I always preferred going to Glenshee.
		
Click to expand...

Have skied Glenshee and Cairngorm in the past and enjoyed both. Spent plenty of time at Glencoe and Nevis but always in the summer so yet to ski them.

Taking the boy as well so more to do around Fort William if its too windy to run the lifts. Any skiing will be a bonus, plan C is an early retreat to the Snow factor at Braehead


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## bobmac (Mar 14, 2020)

Now that all the golf has been cancelled, I had a chat with HID.
Bad news, apparently, she's been laid off from Woolworths  



Shamelessly stolen from FB and tweaked.
Thanks Smiffy


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2020)

The Tweet from the Sinn Fein mp, what a prat!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Slime said:



			Why?
Plenty of fresh air without the close proximity of groups of people.
		
Click to expand...

Because it's a lock down. Socialising will be cut down


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## User62651 (Mar 14, 2020)

saving_par said:



			With my ski trip to Austria cancelled this week 3 nights in Fort William beckons and hoping the wind doesn't shut the lifts at Glencoe and Nevis.
		
Click to expand...

High pressure coming in soon and there is plenty snow, ok it's not the Alps but it's not too shabby presently. Probably snowing presently as it's turned to rain down here at sea level.

Yesterday was looking pretty, snapped this whilst walking the hound -


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## bladeplayer (Mar 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			You'd best hope you don't ever need an 'expert' surgeon....
		
Click to expand...

I was covering workwise . In the car business so hopefuly wont need surgeon . 
On the expert thingy tho . Strange diff countries are getting diff expert opinion on what to do . 
Either way to every1 on here i hope you and ur loved ones get thru this  unscathed and we can all chat on here about how terrible the virus "was".. 
Stay safe guys n gals do what u think is best for ur family .


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			I was covering workwise . In the car business so hopefuly wont need surgeon .
On the expert thingy tho . Strange diff countries are getting diff expert opinion on what to do .
Either way to every1 on here i hope you and ur loved ones get thru this  unscathed and *we can all chat on here about how terrible the virus "was"..*
Stay safe guys n gals do what u think is best for ur family .
		
Click to expand...

You're right.

One thing 'our' expert Prof Whitty has going for him is that he was instrumental in sorting the Ebola crisis in Africa so I guess he's earn't his stripes


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## Italian outcast (Mar 14, 2020)

DanFST said:



			You can go to work, HID's father goes across the border to Switzerland also with no problem.

How has it affected me:
- Supposed to be going to Portugal for a golf trip next weekend, let's see if that goes ahead!
- Barbados first week of may, i'm assuming is a no go.
- Working from home, no problem, I can also walk to the office in 5 minutes if really needed.

So nothing for me really.


HID is from Lombardy and stressing, can't see family and can't help in anyway. Italy really is FUBAR at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

Your HID can still keep in touch - face-time or skype etc - Thats how most families are communicating here anyway (including us)

Folk in Lombardy are complying with most restrictions quite thoroughly at the moment so family visits are way down

Italy will be ok - economic hardship will come but that will be pan-europe including the UK -Lombardy will bounce back and I'm sure your in-laws will do OK

Its not all terrible - We have just had lasagne, aubergine parmigiana, stuffed rabbit and tiramisu delivered from one of the local restaurants 
Most are offering similar services (without trying to rip folk off)


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 14, 2020)

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-joe-rogan-experience/id360084272?i=1000468027968

Worth a listen


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## larmen (Mar 14, 2020)

This morning we drove past a house with an ambulance up front. 2 paramedics with mouth masks coming out helping an old man who was coughing like crazy. That was 2 miles from here. When you see it it can actually feel a lot more daunting than just reading about it.


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## Slime (Mar 14, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156676094987455


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## williamalex1 (Mar 14, 2020)

I got this face book message, TOM HANKS , 
He got Aids in Phildelphia.
He survived 4 years on an island as a castaway,
He survived WW11 and Saved Private Ryan,
He  survived and safely made an emergency plane landing on the Hudson River,
He survived a hijacking by Somali Pirates,
He even survived Apolo 13 and got back from the moon safely.
IF THE CORONA VIRUS  FINISHES HIM OFF
 WERE ALL FRAGGERED


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 14, 2020)

Our local GP practice is now just operating on 'emergency only' process.
I would expect a school closure next, to follow Ireland's lead. 
Surprisingly been told that Scotland cannot do it without the nod from Westminster.. Thought education was devolved.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our local GP practice is now just operating on 'emergency only' process.
I would expect a school closure next, to follow Ireland's lead.
Surprisingly been told that Scotland cannot do it without the nod from Westminster.. Thought education was devolved.

Click to expand...

Who's going to watch the grand kids or great grand kids when / if the schools close,  probably us OAPs  that are in the danger age group


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our local GP practice is now just operating on 'emergency only' process.
I would expect a school closure next, to follow Ireland's lead.
Surprisingly been told that Scotland cannot do it without the nod from Westminster.. Thought education was devolved.

Click to expand...

Education is: UK health policy isn't - Sturgeon has agreed with the strategy. It will last a while - how long before boredom hits and people ignore recommendations. Ignoring advice will cause a peak beyond NHS capacity resulting in increased mortality.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our local GP practice is now just operating on 'emergency only' process.
I would expect a school closure next, to follow Ireland's lead.
Surprisingly been told that Scotland cannot do it without the nod from Westminster.. Thought education was devolved.

Click to expand...

Did Arlene Foster not just say NI schools closing for 16 weeks


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## Imurg (Mar 14, 2020)

Just started a clinical study as to whether a tub of Ben and Jerry's Phish Food is a viable defence against C-19....
So far so good
No sign of a temperature 
Could be on to something here....


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## User20204 (Mar 14, 2020)

The NHS is struggling as it is, they close schools where do they find the extra nurses from that will need to stay home and watch their kids.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 14, 2020)

Just got an email from our CEO telling us to work at home for the next two weeks


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 14, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just started a clinical study as to whether a tub of Ben and Jerry's Phish Food is a viable defence against C-19....
So far so good
No sign of a temperature
Could be on to something here....
		
Click to expand...

Yes but one four times a day .
Your trousers won’t fit you


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## IainP (Mar 14, 2020)

I'd been planning becoming a member of a golf club again after the winter off. Originally was thinking February but with the weather delayed it. Was thinking later this month. Obviously difficult to predict anything at the moment,  but with several golf courses (resorts?) closing in Spain  does make you think if this is a good time to dive back in. Not important in the grand scheme of things obviously.


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## Imurg (Mar 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but one four times a day .
Your trousers won’t fit you
		
Click to expand...

Cue stockpiling of jeans...


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## Backache (Mar 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I can imagine no golf will be allowed. Or gym so for me that's all my activities outside of work 

Other than that I'll be working 

Keep the Mrs off work unpaid for child care 

Smash the overtime for those who can't get in
		
Click to expand...

Golf must be one of the safest things to do, If you avoid getting too close to others and the clubhouse afterwards.


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## IainP (Mar 14, 2020)

Backache said:



			Golf must be one of the safest things to do, If you avoid getting too close to others and the clubhouse afterwards.
		
Click to expand...

Sure most will agree, but there may be more to it.
What if one of the greenkeeping team tests positive, or the team who run the shop or whatever.

Also, common sense doesn't always win through with situations like this.


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## IainP (Mar 14, 2020)

Alternatively...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Backache said:



			Golf must be one of the safest things to do, If you avoid getting too close to others and the clubhouse afterwards.
		
Click to expand...

That's not the point tho. If we are in lock down as a country they won't let us go and it's the attuide of us ignoring it that will stop the lock down working


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## Papas1982 (Mar 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's not the point tho. If we are in lock down as a country they won't let us go and it's the attuide of us ignoring it that will stop the lock down working
		
Click to expand...

ATM lockdown isn’t the route the country is going though.

they seem pretty set on letting the required 60% of us get it.


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## Dellboy (Mar 14, 2020)

Fresh air is good for you, out on the Mountain bike today, wet, very muddy but not a soul to be seen, a fantastic way to spend 3 hours, tomorrow playing golf with two others, meet in carpark, play golf, straight home with no clubhouse drinks, one member at the club has already got it and self isolating, as I'm at high risk with on going health problems I won't be risking going in.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 14, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			ATM lockdown isn’t the route the country is going though.

they seem pretty set on letting the required 60% of us get it.
		
Click to expand...

That's not my point tho. My question was entirely about lock down. Would we be able to work or not

So basically it's work then home no golf

Then people have completely gone off saying golfs fine

In a lock down no it isn't.


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2020)

Press reporting that the over 70s may be instructed to self isolate for 3-4 months in plans being considered for implementation in the next few weeks!!! 🤒🤒🤒


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			Press reporting that the over 70s may be instructed to self isolate for 3-4 months in plans being considered for implementation in the next few weeks!!! 🤒🤒🤒
		
Click to expand...

Can you imagine how fractious this forum will be then when the majority of the contributors haven't been out the house in 12 weeks? 😉


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## chellie (Mar 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can you imagine how fractious this forum will be then when the majority of the contributors haven't been out the house in 12 weeks? 😉
		
Click to expand...

OMG, it doesn't bear thinking about


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2020)

Backache said:



			Golf must be one of the safest things to do, If you avoid getting too close to others and the clubhouse afterwards.
		
Click to expand...

You’ve clearly not played a forum meet if you think golf is safe!


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can you imagine how fractious this forum will be then when the majority of the contributors haven't been out the house in 12 weeks? 😉
		
Click to expand...

There's a good chance that several will get Fraggered and will end up being in self isolation from the forum.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

Also could give Bojo a big dilemma with Brexit. As I'd say there's no way the negotiations will be done in time now as priorities will be elsewhere. So does he leave with no deal as not enough time to get one in current circumstances, or delay Brexit to give time to properly negotiate.


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## HowlingGale (Mar 15, 2020)

What I am absolutely astounded at is that some people do not know what self-isolation and lockdown mean, and how to differentiate between the two. It's quite scary and this is what will put others at more risk.


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## larmen (Mar 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can you imagine how fractious this forum will be then when the majority of the contributors haven't been out the house in 12 weeks? 😉
		
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But the 2 70 year olds who always got the 1st tee time, take 5 1/2 hours and don’t let anyone play through ... ;-)


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## chrisd (Mar 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			Press reporting that the over 70s may be instructed to self isolate for 3-4 months in plans being considered for implementation in the next few weeks!!! 🤒🤒🤒
		
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For the benefit of those who know me on the forum - I might look it  but i AM NOT 70+


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2020)

I can just see some 75 year old being dragged away and bricked up inside his house while he complains that he knows best and things were never like this when I was young...

On amore serious not, it will be interesting to see how this is policed should it come into operation...


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## Backache (Mar 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's not the point tho. If we are in lock down as a country they won't let us go and it's the attuide of us ignoring it that will stop the lock down working
		
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If we are in lockdown as a country that stops golf, of course I will follow the rules. Until then it is a very safe activity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also could give Bojo a big dilemma with Brexit. As I'd say there's no way the negotiations will be done in time now as priorities will be elsewhere. So does he leave with no deal as not enough time to get one in current circumstances, or delay Brexit to give time to properly negotiate.
		
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I heard this being discussed and as many are more than happy for an exit without a deal, coronavirus does the job to make that a strong possibility in current timescales and so why look to agree a delay.

Anyway ... negotiations can continue remotely so hopfully a deal can be reached.  

But one big question is that given the complete uncertainty about the state of the country in July - never mind the economy - what will the UK and the EU be looking for out of a deal given a currently unknown but quite possibly a very difficult and very different world economic environment from that which pertained when we started on this journey.

not saying cancel btw - just wondering how we can know what we will need for UK post jan -2021. But I am sure the government will have much and the best expert economic forecasting advice they can take on that.  If things weren’t complicated enough 🙁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

Last night we watched a half hour documentary BBC News on the Wuhan lockdown.  Blimey - very scary.

Worth watching to understand what China had to demand (not ask) of the Wuhan residents in order to contain cv to Wuhan and locality.  And think whether it is even vaguely possible to expect the same of UK residents as some might call for or might be required.  These are just ordinary chinese having to live in a quite extraordinary and disciplined way.


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## IainP (Mar 15, 2020)

Don't have a link, but read a message from someone in Belgium saying all golf courses & ranges have been closed there 😲


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 15, 2020)

Slime said:



			Sky Sports Golf Channel.
WE KNOW THE PLAYERS HAS BEEN CANCELLED AND WE KNOW WHY.
Please show reruns of the Ryder Cup from Medinah or Paris ................................ please.
		
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Did have a look at SKY golf channel last night. How many times can they ask the same question in 10 minutes? It was like they don't like the answer and hope someone is going to disagree, but nope, everyone says it’s the right thing to do, every time it’s asked. Get on with something else, show reruns, whatever, just stop with the continual bleeting about the situation, there’s a lot worse going on than missing a few rounds of golf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			ATM lockdown isn’t the route the country is going though.

they seem pretty set on letting the required 60% of us get it.
		
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I think it important to understand that that number if not more of us WILL get it - if not now, then in the next year or so before a vaccine becomes available.  That’s just a virus pandemic fact of life. We have no protection until we have had it or there is a vaccine.  The question then becomes how the country best _manages_ us getting it.


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just started a clinical study as to whether a tub of Ben and Jerry's Phish Food is a viable defence against C-19....
So far so good
No sign of a temperature
Could be on to something here....
		
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I tried something similar last night with a bottle of Jack daniels. i now feel like shite and am not allowed near naked flames


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

well - my lad has been told that he may have some work next week but after that all his booked work is almost certainly likely to be pulled. And his employers don’t seem able to offer him any financial support.  So that’s him with no income except universal credit - currently to be £250/month for him and his partner - and not due to get first payment for nearly five weeks. Though he’ll inform DWP tomorrow and they will reassess - still unlikely to be much more.

Also my BiL has had his job teaching in Malta pulled - he was due to start next week I think. So that’s him out of work and heading back to uk on Tuesday with clearly little or no prospects of getting a job teaching overseas for many months.

so difficult


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

Before I played yesterday I was standing at the bar waiting to be served by the lovely Alex - our most polite and attentive stewardess.  A mate I hadn’t seen for a while came up and without thinking we shook hands.  Alex instantly pulled a bottle of anti-bacterial cream from under the counter ‘hands out gentlemen’ squirt, squirt...we had to smile...


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## pendodave (Mar 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I can just see some 75 year old being dragged away and bricked up inside his house while he complains that he knows best and things were never like this when I was young...

On amore serious not, it will be interesting to see how this is policed should it come into operation...
		
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So if you were told that going out and mixing with people would give you (say) a 1/30 chance of dying a fairly unpleasant death, do you think it would need to be policed????
Of course, there's a big impact on managing the health service and protecting the staff, so I can see why is important for the greater good, but are the oldies really that obtuse?


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			So if you were told that going out and mixing with people would give you (say) a 1/30 chance of dying a fairly unpleasant death, do you think it would need to be policed????
Of course, there's a big impact on managing the health service and protecting the staff, so I can see why is important for the greater good, but are the oldies really that obtuse?
		
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You think they're all going to just accept it..?
There will always be some who think they know better.
The majority will go along with it.
But not all.


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## pendodave (Mar 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			You think they're all going to just accept it..?
There will always be some who think they know better.
The majority will go along with it.
But not all.
		
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The honest answer is, I don't know.
I have 2 parents either side of 80. I hope they'll be sensible. But in all honesty, I couldn't be 100% sure. Old people sometimes do odd things. I know there's a lot of angst about how much we are (not) locked down at present, but the less time it's in place, the more likely it is to stick. It'll be interesting to see how much peer pressure is applied - I think it might be quite a bit.


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The honest answer is, I don't know.
I have 2 parents either side of 80. I hope they'll be sensible. But in all honesty, I couldn't be 100% sure. Old people sometimes do odd things. I know there's a lot of angst about how much we are (not) locked down at present, but the less time it's in place, the more likely it is to stick. It'll be interesting to see how much peer pressure is applied - I think it might be quite a bit.
		
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I tend to agree.
I'm just wondering how they're going to deal with the inevitable "escapees"...


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I tend to agree.
I'm just wondering how they're going to deal with the inevitable "escapees"...
		
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Army snipers to take them out!


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Last night we watched a half hour documentary BBC News on the Wuhan lockdown.  Blimey - very scary.

Worth watching to understand what China had to demand (not ask) of the Wuhan residents in order to contain cv to Wuhan and locality.  And think whether it is even vaguely possible to expect the same of UK residents as some might call for or might be required.  These are just ordinary chinese having to live in a quite extraordinary and disciplined way.
		
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Lockdown is very scary. Seeing the Police patrolling the streets, loudspeakers blaring in a language that is difficult to follow at the speed a Spaniard speaks is scary. Driving to the supermarket yesterday, not seeing more than 3 other vehicles is scary. Seeing the restrictions at the supermarket, and some empty shelves is scary.

It is imagination that creates a feeling of fear. Never thought it would bother me, or HID, but its damn scary. The enormity of it doesn't hit you till the lockdown, with all its restrictions, is in place.

We have enough in the fridge/freezer/cupboards to last just about the 15 days but what happens if one of us contracts it during that time? What will we experience in 15 days time when we go out? A simple stat.... 9.8% of over 60's will die - which 6 members of the bowling club will not be there in 4 weeks time? Which 6 friends will not be there?

That's how scary it is, fuelled by imagination. Add to that the horrible, wet cough HID has developed in the last couple of days and the niggly dry cough I've developed in the last couple of days... a touch anxious? Hell yes!!


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Also my BiL has had his job teaching in Malta pulled - he was due to start next week I think. So that’s him out of work and heading back to uk on Tuesday with clearly little or no prospects of getting a job teaching overseas for many months.

so difficult
		
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Your BiL could be coming back to the UK at a good time for him. As the virus spreads schools will come under pressure with teachers going off sick. If he can get his CV out there for supply teaching he could be in high demand if he can stay virus free himself.


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2020)

At least it's stay indoors weather


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## IanM (Mar 15, 2020)

The Club my 81 year old mum goes to on Sundays is cancelled till further notice...shes very cross about it, despite me trying to say it’s sensible precaution


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## drdel (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Lockdown is very scary. Seeing the Police patrolling the streets, loudspeakers blaring in a language that is difficult to follow at the speed a Spaniard speaks is scary. Driving to the supermarket yesterday, not seeing more than 3 other vehicles is scary. Seeing the restrictions at the supermarket, and some empty shelves is scary.

It is imagination that creates a feeling of fear. Never thought it would bother me, or HID, but its damn scary. The enormity of it doesn't hit you till the lockdown, with all its restrictions, is in place.

We have enough in the fridge/freezer/cupboards to last just about the 15 days but what happens if one of us contracts it during that time? What will we experience in 15 days time when we go out? A simple stat.... 9.8% of over 60's will die - which 6 members of the bowling club will not be there in 4 weeks time? Which 6 friends will not be there?

That's how scary it is, fuelled by imagination. Add to that the horrible, wet cough HID has developed in the last couple of days and the niggly dry cough I've developed in the last couple of days... a touch anxious? Hell yes!!
		
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Good luck, let's hope you both have common colds. 🤞🤞


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 15, 2020)

IanM said:



			The Club my 81 year old mum goes to on Sundays is cancelled till further notice...shes very cross about it, despite me trying to say it’s sensible precaution
		
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They have the blitz spirit though.
The oldies will be collecting a few Asbos in the next few weeks.
Nothing worse than an irate 80yr old how do the police deal with them , cuff them and a night in the cells ??
Just as well my dads not here anymore , I would be collecting him from the nick every morning.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 15, 2020)

All bus travel in The Hague is free (not sure about the rest of Netherlands). The front doors of the bus and the front two rows of seats are taped off to stop anyone getting close to the drivers and you have to board through the middle doors. It's saving me a fortune while we're in port.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Did have a look at SKY golf channel last night. How many times can they ask the same question in 10 minutes? It was like they don't like the answer and hope someone is going to disagree, but nope, everyone says it’s the right thing to do, every time it’s asked. Get on with something else, show reruns, whatever, just stop with the continual bleeting about the situation, there’s a lot worse going on than missing a few rounds of golf.
		
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Suspect they won't be able to give away the Sports Channels soon with nothing live to show.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I tend to agree.
I'm just wondering how they're going to deal with the inevitable "escapees"...
		
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Without wishing to be too macabre but in a way they will deal with it themselves by vastly increasing the chances of getting the virus and therefore vastly increasing the chances of them shaking a 7.  I suppose the biggest impact will be on those they are then in contact with like their partners, but in a way if someone is just going out to be obstreperous and awkward and go out for the sake of it then Darimism will kick in. Much harder for those that genuinely will need to go out just to get food as they have no support mechanisms in place.


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## Slime (Mar 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think it important to understand that that number if not *more of us WILL get it - if not now, then in the next year or so before a vaccine becomes available. * That’s just a virus pandemic fact of life. We have no protection until we have had it or there is a vaccine.  The question then becomes how the country best _manages_ us getting it.
		
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That's why I want it NOW.
As every year passes, astonishingly, I get a year older ...................... and that's heading me towards the higher risk category.


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## Curls (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Lockdown is very scary. Seeing the Police patrolling the streets, loudspeakers blaring in a language that is difficult to follow at the speed a Spaniard speaks is scary. Driving to the supermarket yesterday, not seeing more than 3 other vehicles is scary. Seeing the restrictions at the supermarket, and some empty shelves is scary.

It is imagination that creates a feeling of fear. Never thought it would bother me, or HID, but its damn scary. The enormity of it doesn't hit you till the lockdown, with all its restrictions, is in place.

We have enough in the fridge/freezer/cupboards to last just about the 15 days but what happens if one of us contracts it during that time? What will we experience in 15 days time when we go out? A simple stat.... 9.8% of over 60's will die - which 6 members of the bowling club will not be there in 4 weeks time? Which 6 friends will not be there?

That's how scary it is, fuelled by imagination. Add to that the horrible, wet cough HID has developed in the last couple of days and the niggly dry cough I've developed in the last couple of days... a touch anxious? Hell yes!!
		
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Very scary chap hope ye are ok. It’s business as usual here. Staggering.


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## Slime (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We have enough in the fridge/freezer/cupboards to last just about the 15 days but what happens if one of us contracts it during that time? What will we experience in 15 days time when we go out? *A simple stat.... 9.8% of over 60's will die* - which 6 members of the bowling club will not be there in 4 weeks time? Which 6 friends will not be there?
!
		
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Is that 9.8% of over 60's will die or 9.8% of over 60's who contract Covid-19 will die?
There's a huge difference.

Hoping you and HID will be okay and only have a common cough.


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## Wolf (Mar 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			Army snipers to take them out!
		
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I'm qualified and available for freelance work especially if the gyms have to close.


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## chellie (Mar 15, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just as well my dads not here anymore , I would be collecting him from the nick every morning.
		
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Same for me.


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## Crazyface (Mar 15, 2020)

We're booked for a holiday in Portugal in April.....anyone think we have a chance????


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## Smasher (Mar 15, 2020)

It's the idiots that think they know best and don't comply with reasonable sanctions/advice that will stretch this on longer than needed.
There's people tested positive for it in my town (UK). I was at the garden centre yesterday, old fella coughing into his hand then touching everything  There needs to be tough policing or the few will make it worse for the many.
On the plus side most things were available in the supermarket still so I've stocked up without being selfish about it. It was strange driving off our estate, a nice Saturday afternoon would mean there'd not be many cars on drives yet there were 2 on virtually every single one.


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## Smasher (Mar 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			We're booked for a holiday in Portugal in April.....anyone think we have a chance????
		
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I think there's zero chance, I'd be checking insurance and making sure I had a good one bought.


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2020)

I just had to laugh. Just posted on one of the English speaking Spanish newspaper websites. A group of Lycra clad Spanish cyclists have been stopped and each of them fined €2,000 each for ignoring the lockdown.


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## Curls (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I just had to laugh. Just posted on one of the English speaking Spanish newspaper websites. A group of Lycra clad Spanish cyclists have been stopped and each of them fined €2,000 each for ignoring the lockdown.
		
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Tbf I’d like to see this permanently applied to anyone wearing Lycra.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			We're booked for a holiday in Portugal in April.....anyone think we have a chance????
		
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2 hopes, and the correct one is not Bob.

We normally go overseas at Easter but luckily we booked somewhere in the Uk for this one. But then again if we go into full lockdown that may well be scuppered as well.  We'll see. But there will be loads of people who will not be going away at Easter as expected, mostly because no where will accept foreinjers coming in.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			We're booked for a holiday in Portugal in April.....anyone think we have a chance????
		
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We’re due to fly on the 1st.
I had kept it a secret from the missus and kids for 8 Months. Told em all last month and now gotta explain it’s likely a no go. 

If flights cancelled the it’ll all get refunded I’m sure, but its still rubbish. Could be worse though.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'm qualified and available for freelance work especially if the gyms have to close.
		
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Your a Royal.  Judging by the guys in the biathlon team you'd miss  leave it to the professional


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## Wolf (Mar 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your a Royal.  Judging by the guys in the biathlon team you'd miss  leave it to the professional
		
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🤣😂 Difference some of those are army and they're a terrible quality of shot 😂


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			We're booked for a holiday in Portugal in April.....anyone think we have a chance????
		
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No chance. Things in April will make now look like a honeymoon period.


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No chance. Things in April will make now look like a honeymoon period.
		
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Do you know something we don't know?


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## Crazyface (Mar 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No chance. Things in April will make now look like a honeymoon period.
		
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Nutz. I'm holding out hope that Portugal has acted swiftly to prevent a big outbreak and will check temps on incomings.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			You’ve clearly not played a forum meet *I'm at *if you think golf is safe!
		
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Fixed that for you mate


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

Found this really interesting. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/


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## larmen (Mar 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Found this really interesting. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/

Click to expand...

Just seen that on FB as well. I would be interested to see a model with vaccination being thrown in at a later time.


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Fixed that for you mate 

Click to expand...

🖕


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			We’re due to fly on the 1st.
I had kept it a secret from the missus and kids for 8 Months. Told em all last month and now gotta explain it’s likely a no go.

If flights cancelled the it’ll all get refunded I’m sure, but its still rubbish. Could be worse though.
		
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You are right it could be worse however can't be nice for you or the family

Luckily we said no holidays this year as the dog won't see out the summer so want to max time with him otherwise I'd have a wife fuming about possible cancellation


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2020)

Both my lads have had their forthcoming holidays cancelled... 
Bit of a pain but in the scheme of things no big deal...
Holidays can be rescheduled...


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## Papas1982 (Mar 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			You are right it could be worse however can't be nice for you or the family

Luckily we said no holidays this year as the dog won't see out the summer so want to max time with him otherwise I'd have a wife fuming about possible cancellation
		
Click to expand...

Thankfully my girls are easily pleased as long as Daddy acts a prat (default setting). So far they’ve requested interactive restaurant menus for our days off so they can treat our place like a pub. They're creating banners for it that we can change daily.

‘They’ve also picked their fav youtube pranks that I’ll be the willing victim in.

The missus on the other hand......


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## Fish (Mar 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I tend to agree.
I'm just wondering how they're going to deal with the inevitable "escapees"...
		
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Set up snatch squads outside the butchers at 07.00hrs 😜


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2020)

This one is also very interesting;


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			🖕
		
Click to expand...


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## Fish (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I just had to laugh. Just posted on one of the English speaking Spanish newspaper websites. A group of Lycra clad Spanish cyclists have been stopped and each of them fined €2,000 each for ignoring the lockdown.
		
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Should have confiscated and crushed their bikes as well.


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 15, 2020)

I spent 4 hours of my Sunday reorganising our house and room arrangements so we are ready for any lock down.


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## Fromtherough (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Lockdown is very scary. Seeing the Police patrolling the streets, loudspeakers blaring in a language that is difficult to follow at the speed a Spaniard speaks is scary. Driving to the supermarket yesterday, not seeing more than 3 other vehicles is scary. Seeing the restrictions at the supermarket, and some empty shelves is scary.

It is imagination that creates a feeling of fear. Never thought it would bother me, or HID, but its damn scary. The enormity of it doesn't hit you till the lockdown, with all its restrictions, is in place.

We have enough in the fridge/freezer/cupboards to last just about the 15 days but what happens if one of us contracts it during that time? What will we experience in 15 days time when we go out? A simple stat.... 9.8% of over 60's will die - which 6 members of the bowling club will not be there in 4 weeks time? Which 6 friends will not be there?

That's how scary it is, fuelled by imagination. Add to that the horrible, wet cough HID has developed in the last couple of days and the niggly dry cough I've developed in the last couple of days... a touch anxious? Hell yes!!
		
Click to expand...

Wow, this drives it home how scary it is likely to get. My Dad is currently in Tenerife, where lockdown procedures began at 8am this morning. He said it suddenly made it feel very real and him very vulnerable. 

Good luck with the cabining yourself and the Mrs away. On the brighter side, at least events have delayed Boro’s relegation.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 15, 2020)

Not much yet, but working in the gambling industry I can only prepare for lay-offs to come as no money is coming in currently with pretty much all sports suspended/cancelled.


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## pendodave (Mar 15, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Not much yet, but working in the gambling industry I can only prepare for lay-offs to come as no money is coming in currently with pretty much all sports suspended/cancelled.
		
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Out of curiousity, what gives in Sweden at the moment (you are Swedish aren't you?!! Apologies if not)


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2020)

Scary?!

We don't have doorstep bin collections. HID and I just went down to the communal bins, about 400m away. Just lifting the lid when the Police turn up. Queue lots of Spanish and arm waving. I apologised in Spanish for my poor Spanish, at which point he resorted to English and said we can't walk to the bins, we have to put the rubbish in the car and drive to the bins.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Lockdown is very scary. Seeing the Police patrolling the streets, *loudspeakers blaring in a language that is difficult to follow* at the speed a Spaniard speaks is scary. Driving to the supermarket yesterday, not seeing more than 3 other vehicles is scary. Seeing the restrictions at the supermarket, and some empty shelves is scary.

It is imagination that creates a feeling of fear. Never thought it would bother me, or HID, but its damn scary. The enormity of it doesn't hit you till the lockdown, with all its restrictions, is in place.

We have enough in the fridge/freezer/cupboards to last just about the 15 days but what happens if one of us contracts it during that time? What will we experience in 15 days time when we go out? A simple stat.... 9.8% of over 60's will die - which 6 members of the bowling club will not be there in 4 weeks time? Which 6 friends will not be there?

That's how scary it is, fuelled by imagination. Add to that the horrible, wet cough HID has developed in the last couple of days and the niggly dry cough I've developed in the last couple of days... a touch anxious? Hell yes!!
		
Click to expand...

What’s Spanish for “Bring out your dead”? 😆 (only joking btw, hope you and your wife just have a typical winter virus)

This and your other posts remind me that Spain was a Dictatorship not too long ago!


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## bobmac (Mar 15, 2020)

Live webcam from the Vatican on a Sunday


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## pendodave (Mar 15, 2020)

So, in a cheerfully morbid mood, I wondered how many people in the UK die every day "normally".
It seems to be around 1400. I hope that's correct, the last few days have made me quite nervous about quoting internet source data as #facts.
I genuinely can't quite process how much this particular condition actually matters in the general scheme of things.


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 15, 2020)

my wages have already taken a big hit ,I drive a taxi and the airport runs have all but dried up ,I have one tonight ,picking up from Gatwick but there isnt any take ups to the airport .summer will be tough if the airport runs arent there during the summer hols.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			So, in a cheerfully morbid mood, I wondered how many people in the UK die every day "normally".
It seems to be around 1400. I hope that's correct, the last few days have made me quite nervous about quoting internet source data as #facts.
I genuinely can't quite process how much this particular condition actually matters in the general scheme of things.
		
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Had similar chat with my mum. I am morbid 

Sad as it is my grandparents for example could die at any time
.each year is a bonus 

My grandad has had half a lung since 1998

If this virus kills them it will be terribly sad but they can't live forever 

My dad said phenomena used to be called old man's friend.. as in it used to kill you before you could get dementia etc .. but we keep people alive a lot longer and people can suffer all sorts 

But then it's not right to think like that. People aren't just numbers


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 15, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Out of curiousity, what gives in Sweden at the moment (you are Swedish aren't you?!! Apologies if not)
		
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That’s correct. Sweden seem to be taking the same approach as the UK, which, I’d say, is not to do very much. 
As per usual, all of this has come as a shock to the governing bodies in Sweden as their assumption up until about a week ago or so was that this “just cannot happen in Sweden”. The rationale behind such a pompous and absolutely wicked thinking is beyond me, but it’s the Swedish way. 

Up until it dawned that Sweden would face this, just as every other country, people that have been concerned and proposed social distancing and other measurements has been mocked and ridiculed mainly by the Swedish equivalent of The Guardian reading civilians and opinionated writers. 

I could go on forever here, but my blood is boiling just thinking about it all.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 15, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			I spent 4 hours of my Sunday reorganising our house and room arrangements so we are ready for any lock down.
		
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We've just done the same. Tidy out our food store under the stairs, and the kitchen cupboards, found loads of stuff to be used over the coming weeks. Will shop normally as long as possible, and use the stored stuff when normal is not available.


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## pendodave (Mar 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Had similar chat with my mum. I am morbid 

Sad as it is my grandparents for example could die at any time
.each year is a bonus 

My grandad has had half a lung since 1998

If this virus kills them it will be terribly sad but they can't live forever 

My dad said phenomena used to be called old man's friend.. as in it used to kill you before you could get dementia etc .. but we keep people alive a lot longer and people can suffer all sorts 

But then it's not right to think like that. People aren't just numbers
		
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I agree, this whole thing brings many of our 'certainties' into question.
Of the 1400 who die every day, many are for causes which are wholly preventable, certainly with a good deal less effort than we are currently expending.
Air pollution is thought to contribute to 40000 deaths a year, many of which will be the same cohort at greatest threat from the current condition.
There is plenty of evidence that people in some parts of the country die many years earlier than others, and enjoy far worse health. Yet we have allowed this to persist and even increase.
Just ruminating. Rained here all afternoon...


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you know something we don't know?
		
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 Depends what you don’t know. It is common knowledge that the pandemic is nowhere near its peak and that European countries are locking down and closing borders. It will be a miracle if Portugal hadn’t done the same soon. I know quite a few NHS doctors (I used to be one myself) and most are extremely worried about how bad it is going to get. The Govt said today they were asking carmakers to build ventilators instead of cars.


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## andycap (Mar 15, 2020)

I,m no expert and stand to be shot down in flames , but all of this started in China , where did SARS start ? China i believe . A country that is vastly overpopulated , where people feel the need to walk around in masks amongst their own  in normal life  to stay safe . Many places i've been on holiday they are there in numbers . Restrict travel of Chinese and both of these pandemics would not be so bad . Fire away !


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Lockdown is very scary. Seeing the Police patrolling the streets, loudspeakers blaring in a language that is difficult to follow at the speed a Spaniard speaks is scary. Driving to the supermarket yesterday, not seeing more than 3 other vehicles is scary. Seeing the restrictions at the supermarket, and some empty shelves is scary.

It is imagination that creates a feeling of fear. Never thought it would bother me, or HID, but its damn scary. The enormity of it doesn't hit you till the lockdown, with all its restrictions, is in place.

We have enough in the fridge/freezer/cupboards to last just about the 15 days but what happens if one of us contracts it during that time? What will we experience in 15 days time when we go out? A simple stat.... 9.8% of over 60's will die - which 6 members of the bowling club will not be there in 4 weeks time? Which 6 friends will not be there?

That's how scary it is, fuelled by imagination. Add to that the horrible, wet cough HID has developed in the last couple of days and the niggly dry cough I've developed in the last couple of days... a touch anxious? Hell yes!!
		
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Take care sir - and your good lady - and all your friends...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Your BiL could be coming back to the UK at a good time for him. As the virus spreads schools will come under pressure with teachers going off sick. If he can get his CV out there for supply teaching he could be in high demand if he can stay virus free himself.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly - good thinking.  He'll be staying with my 90yr old MiL so able to support his mother if she has to isolate,  trying to look for silver linings - even tarnished ones...


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2020)

Army patrols supplementing Police patrols - its a bit uncomfortable seeing army vehicles patrolling.

Also, 2 people stopped on the paseo(promenade) this morning and told to go home. Stopped just after lunch for the same thing. Arrested when stopped for a 3rd time an hour back.


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## User62651 (Mar 15, 2020)

andycap said:



			I,m no expert and stand to be shot down in flames , but all of this started in China , where did SARS start ? China i believe . A country that is vastly overpopulated , where people feel the need to walk around in masks amongst their own  in normal life  to stay safe . Many places i've been on holiday they are there in numbers . Restrict travel of Chinese and both of these pandemics would not be so bad . Fire away !
		
Click to expand...

We are all the same species.
China has 148 people per square kilometre, UK has 279, we are therefore way more densely populated than them.


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## Slab (Mar 15, 2020)

Currently transiting an airport for the 6th time in the last 9 days


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 15, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Not much yet, but working in the gambling industry I can only prepare for lay-offs to come as no money is coming in currently with pretty much all sports suspended/cancelled.
		
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It's not just the gaming industry, but probably every small business in the country.
If the fears are realised, those Conservative posters of the 80's saying "Labour isn't working" and the long line of unemployed will be more than correct for Boris et al.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

A very sombre and quietly emotional congregation in church this morning - with maybe 30% being over 70.  Minister had to advise that this morning's service could be the last 'normal' service for some time...and that on a morning which should have been joyful and full of hope as we had our first service in church following removal of the pews - the first stage of our refurbishment, renewal and development - and though a long way to go the building interior immediately felt more spacious and light - and very spiritual.

A sad morning - though we hope and pray together with the wider community for strength and guidance through what will be a very difficult few months for us all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It's not just the gaming industry, but probably every small business in the country.
If the fears are realised, those Conservative posters of the 80's saying "Labour isn't working" and the long line of unemployed will be more than correct for Boris et al.
		
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Need for an Emergency Budget?

And when we are through this maybe a rethink on zero hours contracts...where 'employees' have no rights or protections.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 15, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			It's not just the gaming industry, but probably every small business in the country.
If the fears are realised, those Conservative posters of the 80's saying "Labour isn't working" and the long line of unemployed will be more than correct for Boris et al.
		
Click to expand...

Fully aware that it’s not just my industry, but just replying as per thread title how it will/can/have affected me. Scary times.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 15, 2020)

South Korea seem to have absolutely nailed CV19 [check the stats]whilst in third world UK we stick to the tried and tested method of waiting for people to become ill before treating them.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Need for an Emergency Budget?

And when we are through this maybe a rethink on zero hours contracts...where 'employees' have no rights or protections.
		
Click to expand...

When we are all thru this big business will go back doing what it always does   make money . People are just pawns In the game of £££


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Army patrols supplementing Police patrols - its a bit uncomfortable seeing army vehicles patrolling.

Also, 2 people stopped on the paseo(promenade) this morning and told to go home. Stopped just after lunch for the same thing. Arrested when stopped for a 3rd time an hour back.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like they may need that to understand the severity. I’m sure they’d argue along the lines that it’s just the 2 of them and cannot cause any harm, but if every single family argued the same way then the streets would be crowded and again. 

Nice of the police to give them 2 chances before locking them up imo.


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## chrisd (Mar 15, 2020)

HID and I have spent the day at home as she is feeling poorly (not covid) and I'm climbing the walls already - no sport on TV,   nothing much to do, how on earth is a long shutdown going to feel. I might have to do some gardening (without a pitching wedge ) or get some Dulux in and get on with some DIY 😣😣


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## Slime (Mar 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			South Korea seem to have absolutely nailed CV19 [check the stats]whilst in third world UK *we stick to the tried and tested method of waiting for people to become ill before treating them.*

Click to expand...

How can we treat people who are not ill?
What do we treat them for?
Am I missing something?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			South Korea seem to have absolutely nailed CV19 [check the stats]whilst in third world UK we stick to the tried and tested method of waiting for people to become ill before treating them.
		
Click to expand...

Well it looks like they are over the worst, but still reporting 73 new cases a day, so still a significant problem.

My biggest concern is that countries will resume normality too soon and it will burst out again and kick off # 2


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## IainP (Mar 15, 2020)

Now we know this is serious...

Ireland's government has called for the closure of all pubs and bars in the country from this evening "until at least 29 March".


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well it looks like they are over the worst, but still reporting 73 new cases a day, so still a significant problem.

My biggest concern is that countries will resume normality too soon and it will burst out again and kick off # 2
		
Click to expand...

Not wishing to pee on Doons chips, I thought the S Korean Health Minister said they used the same control methods as us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well it looks like they are over the worst, but still reporting 73 new cases a day, so still a significant problem.

My biggest concern is that countries will resume normality too soon and it will burst out again and kick off # 2
		
Click to expand...

Further - South Korea had put in place significant pandemic management measures and structures following the sars outbreak in that country.  In addition, as a result of their sars experience the SK government and authorities knew what would work for the SK people's - what they could accept in respect of personal containment measures - as the people knew that what they were being asked to do actually worked.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...of-sars-key-factor-in-response-to-coronavirus


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2020)

chrisd said:



			HID and I have spent the day at home as she is feeling poorly (not covid) and I'm climbing the walls already - no sport on TV,   nothing much to do, how on earth is a long shutdown going to feel. I might have to do some gardening (without a pitching wedge ) or get some Dulux in and get on with some DIY 😣😣
		
Click to expand...

Your lucky, I got ordered out to hike over Exmoor


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

andycap said:



*I,m no expert* and stand to be shot down in flames , but all of this started in China , where did SARS start ? China i believe . A country that is vastly overpopulated , where people feel the need to walk around in masks amongst their own  in normal life  to stay safe . Many places i've been on holiday they are there in numbers . Restrict travel of Chinese and both of these pandemics would not be so bad . Fire away !
		
Click to expand...

Never truer words typed on the forum....


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not wishing to pee on Doons chips, I thought the S Korean Health Minister said they used the same control methods as us.
		
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I think one big difference between South Korea and the UK is the number of people that have been tested over there. Saw a figure earlier that they had tested 220000 people out of a 50 million population. We've tested around 35000 people out of 60 million population. I think the person they interviewed said that it makes tracking and treating the disease easier with the additional info.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think one big difference between South Korea and the UK is the number of people that have been tested over there. Saw a figure earlier that they had tested 220000 people out of a 50 million population. We've tested around 35000 people out of 60 million population. I think the person they interviewed said that it makes tracking and treating the disease easier with the additional info.
		
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They are possibly more susceptible to following instructions than the average Brit.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 15, 2020)

I tell you what, it's a good job we have a lot of intellectual powehouses and deep thinkers in charge of major countries throughout the world at the moment in this time of a global pandemic. Just think of the chaos we'd have if we had a bunch of populist chancers in charge...


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## harpo_72 (Mar 15, 2020)

chrisd said:



			HID and I have spent the day at home as she is feeling poorly (not covid) and I'm climbing the walls already - no sport on TV,   nothing much to do, how on earth is a long shutdown going to feel. I might have to do some gardening (without a pitching wedge ) or get some Dulux in and get on with some DIY 😣😣
		
Click to expand...

Oh no not panic diy buying!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Need for an Emergency Budget?

And when we are through this maybe a rethink on zero hours contracts...where 'employees' have no rights or protections.
		
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Why? People have the choice on what hours they work including zero hours and are aware of what their rights would be before they sign any contract.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 15, 2020)

How do they enforce the 70 yr olds, 4 month isolation, if initiated?
Will make the golf club less busy during the week.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			How do they enforce the 70 yr olds, 4 month isolation, if initiated?
Will make the golf club less busy during the week.
		
Click to expand...

It'll make a lot of courses empty during the week. It could even spell the end for some clubs if it's one where the senior section is thriving and go in regularly to eat or drink


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 15, 2020)

Slime said:



			How can we treat people who are not ill?
What do we treat them for?
Am I missing something?
		
Click to expand...

Yes


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## harpo_72 (Mar 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It'll make a lot of courses empty during the week. It could even spell the end for some clubs if it's one where the senior section is thriving and go in regularly to eat or drink
		
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Should be okay, membership fees taken.


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2020)

Apparently it could lead to a shortage of sex dolls


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			Apparently it could lead to a shortage of sex dolls
		
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You can joke but I'd be interested to see if their is a spike in the birth rate if we go into lockdown


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## Dando (Mar 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You can joke but I'd be interested to see if their is a spike in the birth rate if we go into lockdown
		
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I was being serious!


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You can joke but I'd be interested to see if their is a spike in the birth rate if we go into lockdown
		
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Or a spike in the divorce rate.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			Apparently it could lead to a shortage of sex dolls
		
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Holland closed its sex shops


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## Fish (Mar 15, 2020)

Dando said:



			I was being serious!
		
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And bicycle repair kits for the punctures 😜


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or a spike in the divorce rate.
		
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Think both will happen. More births and more divorces


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## chrisd (Mar 15, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Oh no not panic diy buying!!
		
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No ! I was just getting emulsional 😋


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## chrisd (Mar 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your lucky, I got ordered out to hike over Exmoor
		
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You're in the Army now 😉


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 15, 2020)




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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 15, 2020)

A great explanation by a medic as to the theory behind the UK gov response.


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## yandabrown (Mar 15, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			A great explanation by a medic as to the theory behind the UK gov response.
		
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But surely it is more nuanced than that. The cases are doubling on a daily basis not a steady increment and there is the 5 day lag between getting the virus and having symptoms, possibly more before hospitalisation. Say there are 128,000 beds available for this type of treatment, you need to "turn off the tap" 5 days before being full (1 day =64,000, 2 days=32,000, 3 days=16,000, 4 days=8,000 and 5 days=4,000) so we need to have turned off infections entirely when there are just 4,000 cases in hospital (possibly as low as 500 if you add in the delay from showing symptoms to hospitalisation). 
I'm not sure how many beds we actually have, nor exactly how fast cases are rising but this shows just how careful you need to be with these exponential numbers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I tell you what, it's a good job we have a lot of intellectual powehouses and deep thinkers in charge of major countries throughout the world at the moment in this time of a global pandemic. Just think of the chaos we'd have if we had a bunch of populist chancers in charge...
		
Click to expand...

Well at least one has been found out...🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Why? People have the choice on what hours they work including zero hours and are aware of what their rights would be before they sign any contract.
		
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Not going to go there as the implication is that there are alternatives to zero hours contracts - and there are - but maybe not so widely available in many sectors of the economy.  Plus there are many desperate and desperately in need of work who often have little choice but to go with anything that is offered - especially when they have threat of loss of JSA hanging over their head.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 15, 2020)

Just read a Golf World article saying that in Central Florida they have drive-thru Coronavirus testing centres, why not have more of that here ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Just read a Golf World article saying that in Central Florida they have drive-thru Coronavirus testing centres, why not have more of that here ?
		
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A point and question I heard raised by a City Uni professor on Ch4 News this evening.


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2020)

Spanish govt has just taken control of all the private hospitals and clinics until further notice.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 15, 2020)

chrisd said:



			HID and I have spent the day at home as she is feeling poorly (not covid) and I'm climbing the walls already - no sport on TV,   nothing much to do, how on earth is a long shutdown going to feel. I might have to do some gardening (without a pitching wedge ) or get some Dulux in and get on with some DIY 😣😣
		
Click to expand...

After only 2 days of self isolation and with no sport on the telly,  I finally got round to renewing my  35 year old Distribution fuse board.  I've only had the replacement lying in my shed for about 3 years.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A point and question I heard raised by a City Uni professor on Ch4 News this evening.
		
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BTW,  the article says it's safe to play golf as long as you don't touch their balls  or equipment, leave the flag in and say a safe distance away from your PPs. . Don't go into the clubhouse if it's too busy.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Holland closed its sex shops 

Click to expand...

And the brothels. Now I'm not saying that there's any connection between the two events but several of the guys from our boat went out on the town last night in The Hague and within 24 hours the whole country has been locked down. I'm fairly sure that it's just a coincidence.


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## chellie (Mar 15, 2020)

Me applying for any jobs is going to be a waste of time.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 15, 2020)

chellie said:



			Me applying for any jobs is going to be a waste of time.
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant timing of your post


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			But surely it is more nuanced than that. The cases are doubling on a daily basis not a steady increment and there is the 5 day lag between getting the virus and having symptoms, possibly more before hospitalisation. Say there are 128,000 beds available for this type of treatment, you need to "turn off the tap" 5 days before being full (1 day =64,000, 2 days=32,000, 3 days=16,000, 4 days=8,000 and 5 days=4,000) so we need to have turned off infections entirely when there are just 4,000 cases in hospital (possibly as low as 500 if you add in the delay from showing symptoms to hospitalisation).
I'm not sure how many beds we actually have, nor exactly how fast cases are rising but this shows just how careful you need to be with these exponential numbers.
		
Click to expand...

That's the entire point of the video

We are coping with what we got ATM and can cope with these tiny increases 

What we can't cope with is massive spikes then drops spikes then drops.


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## User20204 (Mar 15, 2020)

An interesting fact:

Italy has just over 4000 closed cases of which the fatality rate is *44%*


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## chellie (Mar 15, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Brilliant timing of your post 

Click to expand...


OMG, pmsl


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## DanFST (Mar 15, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			An interesting fact:

Italy has just over 4000 closed cases of which the fatality rate is *44%*

Click to expand...


They gave up testing, numbers aren't accurate in the slightest.


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## User20204 (Mar 15, 2020)

DanFST said:



			They gave up testing, numbers aren't accurate in the slightest.
		
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I'm taking that fact from the official live CV site, that's the very same site that has a live update, where are you taking your facts from ?


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## DanFST (Mar 15, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm taking that fact from the official live CV site, where are you taking your facts from ?
		
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Yes your numbers are correct, but they mean nothing. There is thousands of unconfirmed cases. hundreds of probably throughout the world


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## User20204 (Mar 15, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Yes your numbers are correct, but they mean nothing. There is thousands of unconfirmed cases. hundreds of probably throughout the world
		
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So you've contradicted yourself within two posts, surely that must be a record.


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## bluewolf (Mar 15, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So you've contradicted yourself within two posts, surely that must be a record.
		
Click to expand...

 No he hasn’t. 
you’re welcome 👍


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## triple_bogey (Mar 15, 2020)

andycap said:



			I,m no expert and stand to be shot down in flames , but all of this started in China , where did SARS start ? China i believe . A country that is vastly overpopulated , where people feel the need to walk around in masks amongst their own  in normal life  to stay safe . Many places i've been on holiday they are there in numbers . Restrict travel of Chinese and both of these pandemics would not be so bad . Fire away !
		
Click to expand...

And this is the type of backwards thinking that is striking fear into mindless thugs and an increase in attacks of people of Oriental origins. So you telling me that there are no other races that resides in the area's of Wuhan? 
Its common practice to wear masks in Asian countries mainly due to pollution. And they are worn when one has a cold or similar and do not wish to pass it on. They can not afford to miss days off work. They simply do not have that luxury like we do in the UK.

Read into what you will, but it seems too easy for the media to blame the ''wet markets'' when coincidentally there happens to be a research Biolab facility in the vicinity of the market.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2020)

andycap said:



			I,m no expert and stand to be shot down in flames , but all of this started in China , where did SARS start ? China i believe . A country that is vastly overpopulated , where people feel the need to walk around in masks amongst their own  in normal life  to stay safe . Many places i've been on holiday they are there in numbers . Restrict travel of Chinese and both of these pandemics would not be so bad . Fire away !
		
Click to expand...

Is it actually Chinese tourists exporting the virus, or is it European tourists importing it; perhaps you could clarify how you categorically know restricting Chinese travel would stop it if we still allow Europeans access to China?


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## Hobbit (Mar 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Is it actually Chinese tourists exporting the virus, or is it European tourists importing it; perhaps you could clarify how you categorically know restricting Chinese travel would stop it if we still allow Europeans access to China?
		
Click to expand...

Just to throw an odd fact in there. In the run up to the Chinese New Year, Feb 3rd, there were concerns aired in the local media, knowing of the Coronavirus, that there was an expected influx of Chinese tourists into Spain. In effect, lots of visitors coming in to celebrate with the significant number of Chinese immigrants in Spain.

No doubt a pure coincidence but the first Spaniard to die of the virus, died on Feb 13th. He, probably, won't have been the first to contract it... vaguely remember, I think, that he had been to northern Italy. However, northern Italy also has a significant number of Chinese, originally there to work in the leather factories.

Lots of vague guesses in there but who knows...


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## triple_bogey (Mar 16, 2020)

Maybe another pure coincidence, China spokesperson accuses US Military of bringing over Covid-19. The US experiencing high numbers of patients treated for influenza (not tested for Covid-19).
China stages Military World Games around the end of October 2019 in WUHAN. Apparently the US squad performed poorly by US standards. First patient/outbreak happened shortly after in November.

Agree, vague guesses but who knows.........Both China and the US are nutjobs. Wouldn't put anything past these two countries.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Mrs Hogie on the usually packed 6:58 into Waterloo.  She says it’s really eerie


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's the entire point of the video

We are coping with what we got ATM and can cope with these tiny increases

What we can't cope with is massive spikes then drops spikes then drops.
		
Click to expand...

Why the exponential acceleration has to be dampened down to an acceleration in numbers of almost zero - the NHS would most likely be able to cope with a steady growth over a period then levelling off before dropping - but cannot cope with the acceleration. That acceleration of very ill needs spotted and then measures applied immediately without ANY delay - not even a day.  That is the experience of China - they saw the acceleration but did nothing about it for a good few days - if they had clamped down immediately acceleration was spotted they could have cut numbers by 60+ % according to reporting I saw.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			And this is the type of backwards thinking that is striking fear into mindless thugs and an increase in attacks of people of Oriental origins. So you telling me that there are no other races that resides in the area's of Wuhan?
Its common practice to wear masks in Asian countries mainly due to pollution. And they are worn when one has a cold or similar and do not wish to pass it on. They can not afford to miss days off work. They simply do not have that luxury like we do in the UK.

Read into what you will, but it seems too easy for the media to blame the ''wet markets'' when coincidentally there happens to be a research Biolab facility in the vicinity of the market. 

Click to expand...

And conspiracy theories don’t help either...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			Maybe another pure coincidence, China spokesperson accuses US Military of bringing over Covid-19. The US experiencing high numbers of patients treated for influenza (not tested for Covid-19).
China stages Military World Games around the end of October 2019 in WUHAN. Apparently the US squad performed poorly by US standards. First patient/outbreak happened shortly after in November.

Agree, vague guesses but who knows.........Both China and the US are nutjobs. Wouldn't put anything past these two countries.
		
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Stop please...you’ll be telling us next that the pictures from Madrid are faked and that Hobbit works for GCHQ and is posting fake news about his local lockdown.


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## howbow88 (Mar 16, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Why? People have the choice on what hours they work including zero hours and are aware of what their rights would be before they sign any contract.
		
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The simple views of a simple man.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

You never know, one good thing that may come out of this is that as a society we value and pay more the carers, nurses, teachers, supermarket shelf stackers and pay slightly less those that essentially move imaginary money around all day who are actively wanting company shares to fall in some cases.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of history in these situations 

I have been massively critical of the Tories in other situations but I must say they have handled this well so far.

Minimise the affects where you can

Don't lock down too soon.

Keep schools open so that childcare doesn't become an issue for key workers such as the NHS 

Isolation of the over 70s the next step as they are most at risk so to protect them 

Keeping to facts rather than scaring people

Not their fault though that the public have gone mental with shopping


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			You never know, one good thing that may come out of this is that as a society we value and pay more the carers, nurses, teachers, supermarket shelf stackers and pay slightly less those that essentially move imaginary money around all day who are actively wanting company shares to fall in some cases.
		
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And we might realise that zero hours contracts with no employee protections are not an acceptable way to employ individuals.  What we need is organised representation for employees - hold on a second...

I remain fully supportive of the government on this - and just hoping that their communication and clarity improves a bit from today.  And the sort of scaremongering that nick Ferrari was doing earlier on LBC has to be instantly rebutted by live radio / call-ins being required to accept calls in by government representatives to correct misconceptions and misrepresentations.


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## Dando (Mar 16, 2020)

M


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs Hogie on the usually packed 6:58 into Waterloo.  She says it’s really eerie
View attachment 29383
[/QUOTE

My train into Cannon Street is probably 60% full but I still get the obese 2 seat w@nker sit next to me
		
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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			You never know, one good thing that may come out of this is that as a society we value and pay more the carers, nurses, teachers, supermarket shelf stackers and pay slightly less those that essentially move imaginary money around all day who are actively wanting company shares to fall in some cases.
		
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I wouldn't hold your breath Hacker


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2020)

But...….. if they self isolate the over 70's what will happen to the House of Lords.
The country will come to a complete standstill.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

8am Waterloo Northern Line 😳normally heaving even straight after a train has departed...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			8am Waterloo Northern Line 😳normally heaving even straight after a train has departed...
	View attachment 29384

Click to expand...

The service is fantastic on the northern today from our side IE nothing delayed due to heavy customer loading

I'll show this to the boys they will see why


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Well -


Doon frae Troon said:



			But...….. if they self isolate the over 70's what will happen to the House of Lords.
The country will come to a complete standstill.

Click to expand...

Risk that important legislation would go through without proper scrutiny and revision...but plenty of under 70s and maybe over 70s can just watch on BBC Parliament and vote remotely.


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## pendodave (Mar 16, 2020)

When we see how much voluntary self isolation and working from home there already is (plus other behavioural change like constant hand washing etc), I wonder how much extra benefit there is from imposing more drastic rules. Does the 80/20 for apply to the control of infectious diseases?


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## bobmac (Mar 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			But...….. if they *self isolate* the over 70's what will happen to the House of Lords.
The country will come to a complete standstill.

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How do you '*self *isolate' other people?


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well -

Risk that important legislation would go through without proper scrutiny and revision...but plenty of under 70s and maybe over 70s can just watch on BBC Parliament and vote remotely.
		
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They won’t get their £300 a day expenses then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			When we see how much voluntary self isolation and working from home there already is (plus other behavioural change like constant hand washing etc), I wonder how much extra benefit there is from imposing more drastic rules. Does the 80/20 for apply to the control of infectious diseases?
		
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Well - the reasonable worst case working assumption for the immediate pandemic is that 80% will contract it.  But that's the reasonable worst case planning assumption and not a prediction based upon the current situation.  However in the next year or so and without a vaccine I expect 80% to be close to what happens.  Without a vaccine none of us has any resistance.


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## Dando (Mar 16, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			They won’t get their £300 a day expenses then.
		
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I bet the robbing gits will try and claim for it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Upside (I guess) for my wife of commuter train into Waterloo and Underground being very quiet is that she can separate from other passengers, indeed she may start walking from Waterloo to Tower Bridge.  

As she works on a Breast Cancer charity Helpline in the city near Tower Bridge station she can't do that from home (if they shut the office they'd probably redirect calls to one of the Helpline most senior nurses).  The charity will be deluged with calls for support and advice if BC patients can't get through to their own nursing team, and so they'll want to keep their Helpline open as much as possible.


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## Dan2501 (Mar 16, 2020)

Got a dry irritating cough here so working from home. This is fun. Please don't be Corona.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Dando said:



			I bet the robbing gits will try and claim for it!
		
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Interesting comparison perhaps with the Lords daily allowance of £300 is that the standard UC beneift for a single claimant aged 25 or over us £317.82 / month.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

So the wife went into work today. The trains weren't busy so it was easier to distance 

She working until weds as she part time

Emergancy meeting of all teachers at 8am

Told to prepare for closure from Monday 

They expecting the schools to close until at least after Easter


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## DanFST (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They expecting the schools to close until at least after Easter
		
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So there's the added bonus of dodging a bunch of teenagers that won't isolate when schools out. Fantastic


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

DanFST said:



			So there's the added bonus of dodging a bunch of teenagers that won't isolate when schools out. Fantastic
		
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Massive difference between closing the schools and teenagers being required to isolate


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## garyinderry (Mar 16, 2020)

Does anyone know how china is dealing with the spread around the rest of the country? 

Europe seems to be blowing up along with the rest of the world.


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## Rooter (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As she works on a Breast Cancer charity Helpline in the city near Tower Bridge station she can't do that from home (if they shut the office they'd probably redirect calls to one of the Helpline most senior nurses).  The charity will be deluged with calls for support and advice if BC patients can't get through to their own nursing team, and so they'll want to keep their Helpline open as much as possible.
		
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They can't divert calls to the available people to do this work from home? absolutely no need for your wife to go into work to be on a phone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Rooter said:



			They can't divert calls to the available people to do this work from home? absolutely no need for your wife to go into work to be on a phone.
		
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I did say this to her.  They could certainly divert calls to one landline - but don't know if their telephone call handling system can divert calls to multiple different landlines that change on a day-by-day basis as different Helpline Support agents work each day.  Of course they could fix the helpline agents. I'm sure she'll be finding out this week.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Does anyone know how china is dealing with the spread around the rest of the country?

Europe seems to be blowing up along with the rest of the world.
		
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I'll guess instant total lockdown of anyone infected and their recent contacts.  Then lockdown of neighbourhoods and then lockdown of towns.  I recommend watching the BBC News documentary on the Wuhan lockdown to see what total lockdown of a city of 11m looks like as implemented by an authoritarian state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000gj5f/our-world-wuhan-life-under-lockdown


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## Rooter (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I did say this to her.  They could certainly divert calls to one landline - but don't know if their telephone call management system can divert calls to multiple different landlines.  I'm sure she'll be finding out this week.
		
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Fingers crossed, it should be simple and low cost. in fact they should look at it anyway rather than running an expensive city office... a few VOIP software licences would be a drop in the ocean compared to the rent and rates etc!!


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## DRW (Mar 16, 2020)

Just come across first co case 

Friends dentist has it, in his 30s and now in intensive care. Doesn't fit the normal profile, would know of expect to be mild case. 

Hope the guy gets better.


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## garyinderry (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll guess instant total lockdown of anyone infected and their recent contacts.  Then lockdown of neighbourhoods and then lockdown of towns.  I recommend watching the BBC News documentary on the Wuhan lockdown to see what total lockdown of a city of 11m looks like as implemented by an authoritarian state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000gj5f/our-world-wuhan-life-under-lockdown

Click to expand...


I watched 2 documentaries on youtube on wuhan. 

Fantastic response and sacrifice by the population albeit they had no choice but to endure. 


I just can't see how it didnt get out into the country as a whole and spread like wildfire.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So the wife went into work today. The trains weren't busy so it was easier to distance

She working until weds as she part time

Emergancy meeting of all teachers at 8am

Told to prepare for closure from Monday

They expecting the schools to close until at least after Easter
		
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But let's not forget that for many children the only decent meal that they get every weekday is their school dinner...because their parents don't have the wherewithal, ability - or indeed  for some - the inclination - to prepare decent meals.  So yes - close schools if that must be done - but don't do it hastily because the public (in our relative ignorance) might think it's the right thing to do.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

DRW said:



			Just come across first co case 

Friends dentist has it, in his 30s and now in intensive care. Doesn't fit the normal profile, would know of expect to be mild case.

Hope the guy gets better.
		
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Dentists you would expect to get exposure to it more as a patient could have it and they would never know 

Think how close they get


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			I watched 2 documentaries on youtube on wuhan.

Fantastic response and sacrifice by the population albeit they had no choice but to endure.

*I just can't see how it didnt get out into the country as a whole and spread like wildfire*.
		
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If people are prevented form coming into contact with other people it will not spread.  As others have said, China too a very 'forceful' approach to ensuring this did not happen. An approach that will be at odds with many peoples beliefs in individual freedoms in other countries.


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## DRW (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Dentists you would expect to get exposure to it more as a patient could have it and they would never know

Think how close they get
		
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I can certainly see how he could have caught the virus, like you say. The friend didn't know how the dentist had caught it, so maybe from job or maybe from personal life, pass don't know.

Think if you had been a recent patient, must be a little worrying hearing about he has it and in intensive care from it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			I watched 2 documentaries on youtube on wuhan.

Fantastic response and sacrifice by the population albeit they had no choice but to endure.


I just can't see how it didnt get out into the country as a whole and spread like wildfire.
		
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One reason is, I guess, that they closed all roads out - and the people of Wuhan - in their discipline and obedience to the state - did not try and sneak out any other way.  The city was effectively airtight enclosing the virus.  The Chinese people will know that it is not that difficult to be viewing a prison or detention centre from the inside.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One reason is, I guess, that they closed all roads out - and the people of Wuhan - in their discipline and obedience to the state - did not try and sneak out any other way.  The city was effectively airtight enclosing the virus.  The Chinese people will know that it is not that difficult to be viewing a prison or detention centre from the inside.
		
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Is it discipline or is it s ruthless rule?


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## Orikoru (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs Hogie on the usually packed 6:58 into Waterloo.  She says it’s really eerie
View attachment 29383

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Well the tubes were still absolutely rammed this morning. No change there.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Well the tubes were still absolutely rammed this morning. No change there.
		
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Depends where you travel .. most have been empty


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is it discipline or is it s ruthless rule?
		
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I guess it's easy to act in a disciplined way if the alternative is the inside of a prison cell


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 16, 2020)

If this is true, then it really shows the mark of the man....... as if we didn't already know. If there is any chance of a vaccine, the company/ companies manufacturing it should make the  formulae open to all companies, with an agreement from all states to purchase at a reasonable rate. No point charging the earth if there's no earth to spend your money on.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-for-exclusive-access-to-coronavirus-vaccine


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			If this is true, then it really shows the mark of the man....... as if we didn't already know. If there is any chance of a vaccine, the company/ companies manufacturing it should make the  formulae open to all companies, with an agreement from all states to purchase at a reasonable rate. No point charging the earth if there's no earth to spend your money on.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-for-exclusive-access-to-coronavirus-vaccine

Click to expand...

Been hearing tentative reporting this morning that a (possible?) vaccine may have been developed in Seattle...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

I have read that Cummings is chairing the Cobra meetings.  Now I am pleased that he is apparently working closely with the Chief Scientific Adviser - and that s great - but it is for me unfortunate that this individual is at the heart of government decision making given his history of manipulation of the truth and the news.  If he were not there I would happily give my complete trust in the government - but with him there I lose some of that trust and he adds a little bit of uncertainty to my good faith that Johnson is making all decisions purely on a best for the country basis.


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## Orikoru (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Depends where you travel .. most have been empty
		
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Euston to Vauxhall Victoria Line. Absolutely rammo, had to wait for the third train to squeeze on. In fact that's _more_ packed than it usually is!


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## bladeplayer (Mar 16, 2020)

Just curious . Ye all think enough is been done in UK .. 
I dont know .. just seems ye doing it different to rest of world. Could well be ye'r crowd doing it right . Trying to get the feeling on ground over there


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## AmandaJR (Mar 16, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			Just curious . Ye all think enough is been done in UK ..
I dont know .. just seems ye doing it different to rest of world. Could well be ye'r crowd doing it right . Trying to get the feeling on ground over there
		
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Personally yes I think we're taking a measured approach with all the scientific information available. Now is not the time to enforce draconian isolation or lockdown but there probably will be such a time - it's tough deciding what's right and when.


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## pendodave (Mar 16, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			Just curious . Ye all think enough is been done in UK .. 
I dont know .. just seems ye doing it different to rest of world. Could well be ye'r crowd doing it right . Trying to get the feeling on ground over there
		
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Once we (and the rest of Europe) missed the chance to effectively contain, I think that all the different delay strategies will probably all send up in the same place.
All countries are at different stages of infection. They also have different demographics, different political structures, different types of social interaction (in the UK, we don't touch each other nearly was much as the Latin countries). All these things mean that just doing the same as others isn't necessarily the best thing.
And noone will know for a few months at least, so all we can do is take as much personal responsibility as possible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Just off a Skype call with a colleague in Poland - he lives and works in the city of Bydgoszcz (yes - it is not that easy to say) - and he tells me that the city (city and surrounds pop 500,000) is essentially in lockdown.  He called it a ghost city.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Once we (and the rest of Europe) missed the chance to effectively contain, I think that all the different delay strategies will probably all send up in the same place.
All countries are at different stages of infection. They also have different demographics, different political structures, different types of social interaction (in the UK, we don't touch each other nearly was much as the Latin countries). All these things mean that just doing the same as others isn't necessarily the best thing.
And noone will know for a few months at least, *so all we can do is take as much personal responsibility as possible.*

Click to expand...

The problem with this is that people are stupid. We had a guy on our local community Facebook page, who had been told to self-isolate, complaining that because of panic buying he wasn't able to get his shopping when he went to Tesco this morning. When it was pointed out to him that if he is self-isolating he shouldn't be going to Tesco his response was, "Well I only popped in for a few essential bits and wasn't there long".


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem with this is that people are stupid. We had a guy on our local community Facebook page, who had been told to self-isolate, complaining that because of panic buying he wasn't able to get his shopping when he went to Tesco this morning. When it was pointed out to him that if he is self-isolating he shouldn't be going to Tesco his response was, "Well I only popped in for a few essential bits and wasn't there long".
		
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Shame that we can't use examples like this as a form of natural selection for those who would be great for testing for virus vaccine


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## Orikoru (Mar 16, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			Just curious . Ye all think enough is been done in UK ..
I dont know .. just seems ye doing it different to rest of world. Could well be ye'r crowd doing it right . Trying to get the feeling on ground over there
		
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I've watched/read some of what has been posted in here explaining our strategy on it, and it makes sense to me. Can't lock everything down too early or you have to do it for too long, and once it's over you have everyone infecting each other at once causing an overload. You have to do it at the right time, and that might be a month, or two months from now. I'm sure they have a figure in mind when they'll potentially flip the switch.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 16, 2020)

We sell an IPA/DI water tub wipe into the electronics industry. It is a nice add on for us, we sell it alongside other products to companies. Anyway, enquiries this morning, from across our distributors in Europe, have gone bananas. Sadly, once our current stock goes, I could probably sell it all within two days, the next delivery will be 12 weeks time as the mfr is stowed under with orders for the same product (it is used as a general purpose steriliser elsewhere). I am having to turn down business as we want to keep our regular customers, and their regular customer, going as long as we can before we run out. That hurts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Just to add to the difficulties my son is experiencing is that his partner seems to be in denial over coronavirus, just doesn't want to know about it.  And she is not happy with *him *that he has lost all of his income.  The only consolation for him is that she doesn't go out the house very much in any case...

I've said that he can cut his outgoings by coming home and she can go stay with her mother.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Been hearing tentative reporting this morning that a (possible?) vaccine may have been developed in Seattle...
		
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There's this, but human trials are still months away, let alone a vaccine to use

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...ine-approved-at-a-seattle-research-institute/


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## williamalex1 (Mar 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We sell an IPA/DI water tub wipe into the electronics industry. It is a nice add on for us, we sell it alongside other products to companies. Anyway, enquiries this morning, from across our distributors in Europe, have gone bananas. Sadly, once our current stock goes, I could probably sell it all within two days, the next delivery will be 12 weeks time as the mfr is stowed under with orders for the same product (it is used as a general purpose steriliser elsewhere). I am having to turn down business as we want to keep our regular customers, and their regular customer, going as long as we can before we run out. That hurts.
		
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My Japanese smart bidet toilet is supposed to be delivered today, so no more fighting for bog rolls


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			My Japanese smart bidet toilet is supposed to be delivered today, so no more fighting for bog rolls 

Click to expand...

My two Turkish toilets I had plumbed in during our revocation cut the need for as much toilet roll 

People laughed at them

£300 a pop for 2 toilets but hey I ain't fighting for bog roll


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			There's this, but human trials are still months away, let alone a vaccine to use

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...ine-approved-at-a-seattle-research-institute/

Click to expand...

They are going to have to shut Trump up about this...as he'll have the vaccine coming next month and so sorted...


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## bobmac (Mar 16, 2020)

It seems Currys, Ao etc have had a bit of a run on freezers.
_Stock on order
Dispatched within 10 to 21_

_ https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/chest-freezers/refrigeration/freezers/333_3128_30215_xx_ba00010668-bv00308555/xx-criteria.html?ntid=B~d~Chest _

_https://ao.com/l/chest_freezers/1/32-33/ _

_https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/st/chest-freezers?sortOrder=1 _


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## Mudball (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I did say this to her.  They could certainly divert calls to one landline - but don't know if their telephone call handling system can divert calls to multiple different landlines that change on a day-by-day basis as different Helpline Support agents work each day.  Of course they could fix the helpline agents. I'm sure she'll be finding out this week.
		
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Time to bring back Brenda or Dorris...     can divert calls very quickly


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Gave my shift manager a dressing down this morning

We are on semi lock down in our control rooms and signal cabins to protect staff

Only cleaners and rostered staff required to run a service allowed

No upper management, drivers, station staff etc allowed for little chats

Today one of our road managers came in basically they go to incidents 

When he left I lost it and said what's the point of this if you will let the road managers in? The point is to protect the room you have a duty of care to us. They have their offices on the railway they don't need to visit here for the normal friendly cup of tea 

He apologised and said he thought oh their ok.. 

Lock down means what it is


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## User20204 (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll guess instant total lockdown of anyone infected and their recent contacts.  Then lockdown of neighbourhoods and then lockdown of towns.  I recommend watching the BBC News documentary on the Wuhan lockdown to see what total lockdown of a city of 11m looks like as implemented by an authoritarian state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000gj5f/our-world-wuhan-life-under-lockdown

Click to expand...


That was really interesting thanks for that. That from a country that controls it's people, the western world will struggle to manage that.


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## Marshy77 (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My two Turkish toilets I had plumbed in during our revocation cut the need for as much toilet roll

People laughed at them

£300 a pop for 2 toilets but hey I ain't fighting for bog roll
		
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or just use the shower head if need be due to stupid people panic buying bog roll.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			That was really interesting thanks for that. That from a country that controls it's people, the western world will struggle to manage that.
		
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I found it very scary as could see that given this sort of lockdown - and if this is what lockdown means is there any other sort?...there is IMO not a hope in hades that an airtight lockdown could be implemented and maintained in the UK


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Can the guys on here who know about precision manufacturing tell me how the heck JCB and RR (or their ilk) are going to be able to build ventilators,  seems to me to be just pie-in-the-sky.  Great if we could do it - but how?  Or is this just an idea to make us all feel a little bit better with a little bit of hope - and (cynically thinking) simply something that Matt Hancock can go on TV and radio and fill minutes talking about - talking about something that is practically unachievable. 

I'm finding this a bit scary - reminiscent of _On The Beach_ where the people of Melbourne and surrounds try to keep living as near to normal as possible as the radiation from a Northern Hemisphere nuclear holocaust head the way of Victoria - the final outpost - knowing they were all going to die.  That isn't going to happen to us - but when, a couple of years back, I read the book and watched the (brilliant) film I never, ever thought for one moment that I could be in a situation that would resonate so...


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## Dando (Mar 16, 2020)

our parent company are running a buddy scheme with those working alternate weeks. 
my part of that firm are not but we have colleague call update at 1.30.
there are many people here who haven't got the ability to log in from home (me) or check emails on a company phone so if we are sent home I am not sure what will happen to our clients


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2020)

I wanted to take a step back and give my overall perspective. My background is as a medical doctor who is trained in public health and epidemiology, although I have worked in the pharma industry, mostly R&D for the last 20 years or so. 

I am on a doctors social media site which has much discussion on Covid. The general tone is grim. Doctors are very, very worried about this and how the NHS will cope. Correction, how badly it will fail to cope. For the vast majority of younger people, Covid will be a brief and only mildly unpleasant irritation. It will pass over in a week or so and leave no residual damage. But for a small minority, increasing with age, some but not all of whom have co-morbidites such as diabetes or heart disease which make it worse, it will be much more severe and require hospitalisation or even intensive care. This is where it gets ugly. The NHS is already under provided for intensive care beds. Successive Govts, mostly Tory but also Labour, have drastically reduced hospital beds and allowed staffing to become ever more parlous. No lessons were learned from SARS or MERS. Little structural pandemic planning exists. So what would be a huge resource crisis becomes an existential one. 

Some estimates are that with expected infection rates and critical care cases, the ICU facilities of the NHS will be overwhelmed by several orders of magnitude (10- 50x). I am a middle aged bloke, lets just say that if I wasn't a crap golfer I would be eligible for the Seniors Tour. If I get severe Covid disease, I have no chance of getting an ICU bed. Not even close. I am therefore rubber ducked. Reports from Italy, which has better ICU provision per capita, suggest the cutoff age for ICU at the peak is less than 40, and only then for fit and healthy. 

I walked around a supermarket this morning, seeing empty shelves and people picking over what was left. My reaction was that they are missing the plot. People aren't going to be besieged in their homes, their illness will be reasonably short, whatever the outcome. They should be worried about the NHS instead of Tesco supply of pasta and bog roll. We can provide pasta and bog roll for everyone, we just can't supply healthcare. 

The herd immunity plan, now being backed away from, is, in my view a massive gamble. We don't know if exposure confers durable immunity, or whether to is possible to get 60% infected, or whether the cost of at least a quarter of a million lives is worth it. Protecting the most vulnerable sounds like a noble gesture, but it only comes at the expense of more people in my age group. If you need 40m cases, and you protect one age group, you necessarily increase the proportion of other age groups that must be infected. And how do we know when we have hit this plausible but unproven threshold if we are not testing? The argument that taking severe measures now will only result in a second wave is possible, but the second wave would be more controllable and severe measures are needed not now to allow the peak to become a catastrophe. The UK Govt says it is taking best scientific advice. It clearly isn't taking it from the WHO or the European organisations, who think the UK is crazy not to step in much more aggressively. All the other major countries are running away from this. The UK seems to be running towards it. 

So what have I been doing. I haven't been stockpiling, but I have been updating my will and figuring out who will take our kids if we both get severe disease. Sorry, it all sounds rather grim, but trust me, a lot of doctors are thinking and doing the same.


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Bit of joint up thinking that won't work ofc or Is just too far fetched 

All the people from virgin etc who are being told 8 weeks unpaid leave

Could they not be offered work to help the NHS? Like talks of NHS taking over hotels and private hospitals they will need cleaners, food prep..dishing out to rooms etc 

Surely better than nothing?


----------



## GB72 (Mar 16, 2020)

I suppose that I am lucky in that my day to day involves almost self isolation. I park at work, go into my office where everything is used just by me, head home to a rural community and so have little outside contact. Only hot spot is the gym and that is only small with staff keeping a close eye for symptoms and with plenty of cleaning product by the machines. 

I am OK with how this has been dealt with so far. From what I understand, and I do not understand a huge amount, to build up any national immunity, a large percentage of us have to get it and the plan is that we try and stop everyone getting it at the same time to keep essential services free. I am pretty much going along the lines that I am going to get it at some stage but the idea of the game is to try and avoid getting it for as long as possible.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 16, 2020)

Once you have the virus or think you have it, is there anything that a person can do to reduce its severity to survival levels ?


----------



## Kellfire (Mar 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Never truer words typed on the forum....
		
Click to expand...

The early use of that comma removed any doubt.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Upside (I guess) for my wife of commuter train into Waterloo and Underground being very quiet is that she can separate from other passengers, indeed she may start walking from Waterloo to Tower Bridge. 

As she works on a Breast Cancer charity Helpline in the city near Tower Bridge station she can't do that from home (if they shut the office they'd probably redirect calls to one of the Helpline most senior nurses).  The charity will be deluged with calls for support and advice if BC patients can't get through to their own nursing team, and so they'll want to keep their Helpline open as much as possible.
		
Click to expand...

Highly recommend the walk, great sites and atmosphere. Always did it from UJ to Tower Bridge when I had work down there.


----------



## Ethan (Mar 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Once you have the virus or think you have it, is there anything that a person can do to reduce its severity to survival levels ?
		
Click to expand...

Not really. There is no specific treatment. A lot depends on your background state of health. If you are not immunocompromised through medication or illness, and your lungs and heart are in decent condition, chances are you will be fine. Much of the added risk of older age is filtered through added risk factors. 
Supportive treatment, mostly to reduce fever or other symptoms are fine. I wouldn’t overdo the NSAIDs though. There are reports they may worsen aspects of the disease. Some evidence that viral load (the quantity of virus you ‘catch’) has an influence. This means that getting the illness from really suck people may be worse. This is more of a concern for healthcare workers and first responders. Unfortunately dumb luck also plays a part.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have read that Cummings is chairing the Cobra meetings.  Now I am pleased that he is apparently working closely with the Chief Scientific Adviser - and that s great - but it is for me unfortunate that this individual is at the heart of government decision making given his history of manipulation of the truth and the news.  If he were not there I would happily give my complete trust in the government - but with him there I lose some of that trust and he adds a little bit of uncertainty to my good faith that Johnson is making all decisions purely on a best for the country basis.
		
Click to expand...

Highly unlikely, don't believe all you read.


----------



## Swango1980 (Mar 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I wanted to take a step back and give my overall perspective. My background is as a medical doctor who is trained in public health and epidemiology, although I have worked in the pharma industry, mostly R&D for the last 20 years or so.

I am on a doctors social media site which has much discussion on Covid. The general tone is grim. Doctors are very, very worried about this and how the NHS will cope. Correction, how badly it will fail to cope. For the vast majority of younger people, Covid will be a brief and only mildly unpleasant irritation. It will pass over in a week or so and leave no residual damage. But for a small minority, increasing with age, some but not all of whom have co-morbidites such as diabetes or heart disease which make it worse, it will be much more severe and require hospitalisation or even intensive care. This is where it gets ugly. The NHS is already under provided for intensive care beds. Successive Govts, mostly Tory but also Labour, have drastically reduced hospital beds and allowed staffing to become ever more parlous. No lessons were learned from SARS or MERS. Little structural pandemic planning exists. So what would be a huge resource crisis becomes an existential one.

Some estimates are that with expected infection rates and critical care cases, the ICU facilities of the NHS will be overwhelmed by several orders of magnitude (10- 50x). I am a middle aged bloke, lets just say that if I wasn't a crap golfer I would be eligible for the Seniors Tour. If I get severe Covid disease, I have no chance of getting an ICU bed. Not even close. I am therefore rubber ducked. Reports from Italy, which has better ICU provision per capita, suggest the cutoff age for ICU at the peak is less than 40, and only then for fit and healthy.

I walked around a supermarket this morning, seeing empty shelves and people picking over what was left. My reaction was that they are missing the plot. People aren't going to be besieged in their homes, their illness will be reasonably short, whatever the outcome. They should be worried about the NHS instead of Tesco supply of pasta and bog roll. We can provide pasta and bog roll for everyone, we just can't supply healthcare.

The herd immunity plan, now being backed away from, is, in my view a massive gamble. We don't know if exposure confers durable immunity, or whether to is possible to get 60% infected, or whether the cost of at least a quarter of a million lives is worth it. Protecting the most vulnerable sounds like a noble gesture, but it only comes at the expense of more people in my age group. If you need 40m cases, and you protect one age group, you necessarily increase the proportion of other age groups that must be infected. And how do we know when we have hit this plausible but unproven threshold if we are not testing? The argument that taking severe measures now will only result in a second wave is possible, but the second wave would be more controllable and severe measures are needed not now to allow the peak to become a catastrophe. The UK Govt says it is taking best scientific advice. It clearly isn't taking it from the WHO or the European organisations, who think the UK is crazy not to step in much more aggressively. All the other major countries are running away from this. The UK seems to be running towards it.

So what have I been doing. I haven't been stockpiling, but I have been updating my will and figuring out who will take our kids if we both get severe disease. Sorry, it all sounds rather grim, but trust me, a lot of doctors are thinking and doing the same.
		
Click to expand...

Very good insight,

This weekend it suddenly became real for me. I'm in a whatsapp group with mates from N Ireland, and one of my friends, who is a GP and normally not one to share big opinions, suddenly went off on one, saying how concerned he was, along with his contacts in infectious diseases in Scotland. He assured us that this is very very serious. He explained that, if there was a strategy of herd immunity, it is thought that 85% of the population (1.9 million N Ireland) would need to get it, of which 9% would become seriously ill (170,000) and 2.5% need ICU ventilation (47,000). To put that in perspective the entire of Ireland has 277 ICU ventilators. So, if these figures were correct, in England over 5 million people would get seriously ill, and 1.4 million people need ICU ventilation.

I then had a chat to my aunt yesterday, a nurse practitioner at a minor injuries unit. That has been closed, and all staff are now being tasked in this fight against the virus. The phone call lasted 55 minutes, and she was very very worried. She actually said if anything, she hopes she gets it now whilst there may be an ICU ventilator available. Because, not far down the line, there may be nothing available to help the critically ill get through this.

And, we can't just say that, if we are young (relatively), fit and healthy, we don't need to worry about ourselves. Unfortunately, although rare, I believe some young people around the world have passed away, who were not unwell previously. However, it is not just coronavirus. If we are very unlucky, we could be involved in an accident, get an infection or some sort of illness, and need ICU support. If we are doubly unlucky to have this happen to us in the coming weeks, there may simply be no way to treat us unless someone else is kicked out of ICU?

The government responses have seemed so vague up to now. Seems incredible that, the rest of Europe is shutting down, industries are closing down and risking going bankrupt and staff losing jobs, yet the government seem to be saying to simply wash your hands and perhaps avoid crowds. As such, I reckon a lot of the population are not really taking it seriously at all, because at the moment most of us do not know anyone directly effected. I appreciate that the government do not want to cause a panic, but at same time, maybe a little bit of panic will get peoples attention.


----------



## Andy (Mar 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			My Japanese smart bidet toilet is supposed to be delivered today, so no more fighting for bog rolls 

Click to expand...


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Once you have the virus or think you have it, is there anything that a person can do to reduce its severity to survival levels ?
		
Click to expand...

Over here the recommendation is get plenty of paracetamol in to try and manage the headaches and fever. Plenty of cough mixture, both the expectorant version and the 'soothing' version. Menthol crystals, and create a steamy atmosphere. Stay warm, hydrated and away from people. Stick your head between your legs and... I might have made the last bit up.


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 16, 2020)

bobmac said:



			It seems Currys, Ao etc have had a bit of a run on freezers.
_Stock on order
Dispatched within 10 to 21_

_ https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/chest-freezers/refrigeration/freezers/333_3128_30215_xx_ba00010668-bv00308555/xx-criteria.html?ntid=B~d~Chest _

_https://ao.com/l/chest_freezers/1/32-33/ _

_https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/st/chest-freezers?sortOrder=1 _

Click to expand...

Electrical shops over here out of stock too


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 16, 2020)

Just heard from an ex-nurse working in Australia and the population are being told if they become symptomatic with a dry cough/sore throat to gargle with warm salt water or vinegar


----------



## Dando (Mar 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Over here the recommendation is get plenty of paracetamol in to try and manage the headaches and fever. Plenty of cough mixture, both the expectorant version and the 'soothing' version. *Menthol crystals*, and create a steamy atmosphere. Stay warm, hydrated and away from people. Stick your head between your legs and... I might have made the last bit up.
		
Click to expand...

not to be confused with Crystal Meth!


----------



## User20204 (Mar 16, 2020)

My partner works in ICU, she said that ICU is filled to the gunnels, day in day out and has been all the time she has been a nurse 15+ years. Her opinion is, if things get as bad as possibly suggested, a lot of people are going to die, she never gave a number but her words were, a lot.


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2020)

Well, that's the Edinburgh Festival Theatre closed and our trip to see Round The Horne tonight off. 
Given everything else that's happened it's a minor inconvenience.


----------



## User20204 (Mar 16, 2020)

I should add, she has told me for years she has been overworked and under staffed for years.


----------



## Orikoru (Mar 16, 2020)

Dando said:



			not to be confused with Crystal Meth!
		
Click to expand...

Although that would probably sort you out as well.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 16, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Well, that's the Edinburgh Festival Theatre closed and our trip to see Round The Horne tonight off.
Given everything else that's happened it's a minor inconvenience.
		
Click to expand...

Shame ours hasn't been.  2 of the party unwell (not apparently with Covid-19 symptoms but I doubt the Great British Public will notice the difference if anyone coughs or sneezes), no phone number to contact the booking company but a promise on the website to contact you within 48 hours...


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 16, 2020)

Can I nominate this bloke for a particularly unpleasant dose of the virus;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51909045


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I wanted to take a step back and give my overall perspective. My background is as a medical doctor who is trained in public health and epidemiology, although I have worked in the pharma industry, mostly R&D for the last 20 years or so.

I am on a doctors social media site which has much discussion on Covid. The general tone is grim. Doctors are very, very worried about this and how the NHS will cope. Correction, how badly it will fail to cope. For the vast majority of younger people, Covid will be a brief and only mildly unpleasant irritation. It will pass over in a week or so and leave no residual damage. But for a small minority, increasing with age, some but not all of whom have co-morbidites such as diabetes or heart disease which make it worse, it will be much more severe and require hospitalisation or even intensive care. This is where it gets ugly. The NHS is already under provided for intensive care beds. Successive Govts, mostly Tory but also Labour, have drastically reduced hospital beds and allowed staffing to become ever more parlous. No lessons were learned from SARS or MERS. Little structural pandemic planning exists. So what would be a huge resource crisis becomes an existential one.

Some estimates are that with expected infection rates and critical care cases, the ICU facilities of the NHS will be overwhelmed by several orders of magnitude (10- 50x). I am a middle aged bloke, lets just say that if I wasn't a crap golfer I would be eligible for the Seniors Tour. If I get severe Covid disease, I have no chance of getting an ICU bed. Not even close. I am therefore rubber ducked. Reports from Italy, which has better ICU provision per capita, suggest the cutoff age for ICU at the peak is less than 40, and only then for fit and healthy.

I walked around a supermarket this morning, seeing empty shelves and people picking over what was left. My reaction was that they are missing the plot. People aren't going to be besieged in their homes, their illness will be reasonably short, whatever the outcome. They should be worried about the NHS instead of Tesco supply of pasta and bog roll. We can provide pasta and bog roll for everyone, we just can't supply healthcare.

The herd immunity plan, now being backed away from, is, in my view a massive gamble. We don't know if exposure confers durable immunity, or whether to is possible to get 60% infected, or whether the cost of at least a quarter of a million lives is worth it. Protecting the most vulnerable sounds like a noble gesture, but it only comes at the expense of more people in my age group. If you need 40m cases, and you protect one age group, you necessarily increase the proportion of other age groups that must be infected. And how do we know when we have hit this plausible but unproven threshold if we are not testing? The argument that taking severe measures now will only result in a second wave is possible, but the second wave would be more controllable and severe measures are needed not now to allow the peak to become a catastrophe. The UK Govt says it is taking best scientific advice. It clearly isn't taking it from the WHO or the European organisations, who think the UK is crazy not to step in much more aggressively. All the other major countries are running away from this. The UK seems to be running towards it.

So what have I been doing. I haven't been stockpiling, but I have been updating my will and figuring out who will take our kids if we both get severe disease. Sorry, it all sounds rather grim, but trust me, a lot of doctors are thinking and doing the same.
		
Click to expand...

We had the discussion with a Wills Adviser a few weeks ago - about getting new wills written.  We know what we want but haven't given him the go-ahead.  I think we will...especially as Mrs Hogie is a bit more vulnerable being on cancer drugs in post-treatment and in remission...


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Shame ours hasn't been.  2 of the party unwell (not apparently with Covid-19 symptoms but I doubt the Great British Public will notice the difference if anyone coughs or sneezes), no phone number to contact the booking company but a promise on the website to contact you within 48 hours...
		
Click to expand...

Our announcement was posted on the main Capital Theatre website. 
https://www.capitaltheatres.com/about/stories/update-on-coronavirus


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can I nominate this bloke for a particularly unpleasant dose of the virus;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51909045



Click to expand...

Good to see the online platforms are clamping down on this.  I bet there's a few people in the UK who have bought shedloads to sell in ebay too but if both Amazon and ebay are clamping restricting/stopping sales of these products. 
Sadly there will always be parasites who will want to profit from the misfortune of others.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Highly unlikely, don't believe all you read.
		
Click to expand...

Ah you are hopefully right - it wasn't Cobra...

Unfortunately I *have *to believe what I read and hear on the main News TV and Radio Channels and in the main newspapers.

And so still not sure that I am altogether happy with him being involved in any decision making that might literally be life and death for some of us.  Johnson has the key Scientific and Medical advisers he needs - and I don't see why Cummings would be in there.  Given his record these last four years I don't trust his involvement in managing the information giving and political optics.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-coronavirus-big-tech


----------



## Dando (Mar 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Although that would probably sort you out as well.
		
Click to expand...

I guess if you're off your tits on Meth then you wont really give a toss about Covid


----------



## AmandaJR (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We had the discussion with a Wills Adviser a few weeks ago - about getting new wills written.  We know what we want but haven't given him the go-ahead.  I think we will...especially as Mrs Hogie is a bit more vulnerable being on cancer drugs in post-treatment and in remission...

Click to expand...

Isn't there a thing called "Letter of Wishes" which can be drawn up without the legal changing of wills?


----------



## Slime (Mar 16, 2020)

I've just been told my niece has got it!
She's young and healthy, she should be okay but has just been away for the weekend with her parents.
I guess I won't be seeing my twinny for a while.


----------



## Imurg (Mar 16, 2020)

It's been recommended that all driving instructors wipe down all controls and areas of the car that are touched before and after every lesson with antibacterial wipes
Sounds ok in theory but.....
If I have newish student at the wheel I may have to reach over and help or take over the steering several times in a lesson depending on what we're doing 
So I then have to wipe down all the controls I've touched..every time.
With a newbie this morning I'd have been spending more time wiping down than teaching...
Gonna be a long few months.....


----------



## DRW (Mar 16, 2020)

A Japanese man who appeared to have recovered from coronavirus *tested positive again *less than three weeks after he left a medical facility where he was being treated,
		
Click to expand...





			The ESA has also warned that unpublished data from hospitals in Italy showed that while the majority of critical patients were elderly, *one in five was aged under 50 and did not have underlying health conditions*.
		
Click to expand...

Yeek.


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## DRW (Mar 16, 2020)

Slime said:



			I've just been told my niece has got it!
She's young and healthy, she should be okay but has just been away for the weekend with her parents.
I guess I won't be seeing my twinny for a while. 

Click to expand...

Speedy and healthy recovery wishes.


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 16, 2020)

Slime said:



			I've just been told my niece has got it!
She's young and healthy, she should be okay but has just been away for the weekend with her parents.
I guess I won't be seeing my twinny for a while. 

Click to expand...

Best wishes to all ur family for full speedy recovery


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can the guys on here who know about precision manufacturing tell me how the heck JCB and RR (or their ilk) are going to be able to build ventilators,  seems to me to be just pie-in-the-sky.  Great if we could do it - but how?  .
		
Click to expand...

Assembly isn't as difficult as you might think. Components(modular build) are shipped in, and then its just an Airfix model to put together. The issue is testing it afterwards. But backtracking, getting all the extra components to build the extra vents is the first major hurdle. And then its the staff to set them up and then manage the bed space.

The company I retired from manufactured medical equipment, intensive care vents and anaes machines. About 15 years back there was an urgent need. Extra capacity for assembly was outsourced to China and the US.


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## Russ_D (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It's been recommended that all driving instructors wipe down all controls and areas of the car that are touched before and after every lesson with antibacterial wipes
Sounds ok in theory but.....
If I have newish student at the wheel I may have to reach over and help or take over the steering several times in a lesson depending on what we're doing
So I then have to wipe down all the controls I've touched..every time.
With a newbie this morning I'd have been spending more time wiping down than teaching...
Gonna be a long few months.....
		
Click to expand...

Could you wear surgical gloves?


----------



## Imurg (Mar 16, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Could you wear surgical gloves?
		
Click to expand...

It did cross my mind but I'd still have to scrub down between lessons..
Plus I'm sat 2 feet away from someone who may have been exposed...unless I suit up with mask, gloves and full body suit I'm in the firing line anyway...


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It's been recommended that all driving instructors wipe down all controls and areas of the car that are touched before and after every lesson with antibacterial wipes
Sounds ok in theory but.....
If I have newish student at the wheel I may have to reach over and help or take over the steering several times in a lesson depending on what we're doing
So I then have to wipe down all the controls I've touched..every time.
With a newbie this morning I'd have been spending more time wiping down than teaching...
Gonna be a long few months.....
		
Click to expand...

Carrier drivers are coming to us all wearing gloves now, frequently latex gloves that are disposable. Are you able to get hold of any of these? Well worth looking into.

Just seen the two posts above, fair point.


----------



## Russ_D (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It did cross my mind but I'd still have to scrub down between lessons..
Plus I'm sat 2 feet away from someone who may have been exposed...unless I suit up with mask, gloves and full body suit I'm in the firing line anyway...
		
Click to expand...

Good point, I remember being nervous enough about driving lessons without a guy in a hazmat suit and mask sat next to me!


----------



## Imurg (Mar 16, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Good point, I remember being nervous enough about driving lessons without a guy in a hazmat suit and mask sat next to me!
		
Click to expand...

Might try it...a couple of the kids would love it but some would completely freak out....


----------



## Dando (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It did cross my mind but I'd still have to scrub down between lessons..
Plus I'm sat 2 feet away from someone who may have been exposed...unless I suit up with mask, gloves and full body suit I'm in the firing line anyway...
		
Click to expand...

I bet you already have the mask, gloves and full rubber suit


----------



## Imurg (Mar 16, 2020)

Dando said:



			I bet you already have the mask, gloves and full rubber suit   

Click to expand...

That's for when I'm in the the car with Fragger ..


----------



## Dando (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			That's for when I'm in the the car* dogging *with Fragger ..

Click to expand...

FTFY mate


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can the guys on here who know about precision manufacturing tell me how the heck JCB and RR (or their ilk) are going to be able to build ventilators,  seems to me to be just pie-in-the-sky.  Great if we could do it - but how?  Or is this just an idea to make us all feel a little bit better with a little bit of hope - and (cynically thinking) simply something that Matt Hancock can go on TV and radio and fill minutes talking about - talking about something that is practically unachievable. 

I'm finding this a bit scary - reminiscent of _On The Beach_ where the people of Melbourne and surrounds try to keep living as near to normal as possible as the radiation from a Northern Hemisphere nuclear holocaust head the way of Victoria - the final outpost - knowing they were all going to die.  That isn't going to happen to us - but when, a couple of years back, I read the book and watched the (brilliant) film I never, ever thought for one moment that I could be in a situation that would resonate so...
		
Click to expand...

In the war, how many companies were diverted to manufacturing arms including planes etc?  Many, and things got done.
 I'm no engineer, but I think it can (and will) be done.
Just so long as lawyers and patent arguments don't try to get in the way. 
If they do, then some sorting of the strong kind is required. 
This is clearly a national emergency as far as the Government is concerned and I hope they act accordingly.


----------



## chrisd (Mar 16, 2020)

HID doing Tesco shop on line and they've come up with a bag of 16 toilet rolls available - nothing like a good bit of panic buying😋😋😋

But then, will they arrive tomorrow 😣


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2020)

Can I just put my hands up for the first pair of NI Patrol Boots size 9 that become available


----------



## User20204 (Mar 16, 2020)

Watching the live presser I now think the UK strategy is better than others where I didn't a couple days ago. 

The UK are introducing things that other countries didn't, they just shut down where ours is based upon slowing the progress, social isolation etc etc. 

Very annoyed about absolutely no mention of those us us that are self employed and it's all about businesses yet what support does the single self employed person get...nothing.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Mar 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah you are hopefully right - it wasn't Cobra...

Unfortunately I *have *to believe what I read and hear on the main News TV and Radio Channels and in the main newspapers.

And so still not sure that I am altogether happy with him being involved in any decision making that might literally be life and death for some of us.  Johnson has the key Scientific and Medical advisers he needs - and I don't see why Cummings would be in there.  Given his record these last four years I don't trust his involvement in managing the information giving and political optics.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-coronavirus-big-tech

Click to expand...

As I write there are three men standing fair and square in front of the Nation telling us how they intend to proceed.
Stop this carping on about a man with horns in the background deciding other different strategies that we aren't being told about.
You always seem to need someone to be the baddie . Party politics is not involved in this!


----------



## Imurg (Mar 16, 2020)

Dando said:



			FTFY mate
		
Click to expand...

He won't be happy when he reads that......
And anyway, nailing Todger to a table would be infinitely preferable..


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2020)

Home delivery still working


----------



## Slime (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It did cross my mind but I'd still have to scrub down between lessons..
Plus *I'm sat 2 feet away from someone who may have been exposed*...unless I suit up with mask, gloves and full body suit I'm in the firing line anyway...
		
Click to expand...

And so are they!


----------



## Imurg (Mar 16, 2020)

Slime said:



			And so are they! 

Click to expand...

Cant deny it.
Courtesy of me old Mum, if I do have to stop work, we're not going to be in trouble but a lot of the other guys in town are the main earners and they've got some hard decisions to make.
There's already talk in the industry of Theory test centres being closed due to the numbers in a confined space.
That's going to impact practical tests as you can't book one without passing the theory..which will impact the length of time it takes to pass.
Add to that, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if tests start getting cancelled due to examiners self-isolating- they're in a similar boat to me.
I hope to God they don't close the golf courses ....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Waterloo at start of Monday rush hour.  Good social separation on show.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Cant deny it.
Courtesy of me old Mum, if I do have to stop work, we're not going to be in trouble but a lot of the other guys in town are the main earners and they've got some hard decisions to make.
There's already talk in the industry of Theory test centres being closed due to the numbers in a confined space.
That's going to impact practical tests as you can't book one without passing the theory..which will impact the length of time it takes to pass.
Add to that, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if tests start getting cancelled due to examiners self-isolating- they're in a similar boat to me.
I hope to God they don't close the golf courses ....
		
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You can get passports and driving licences on line, is there a practical reason why on line testing can't be done?


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## Imurg (Mar 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You can get passports and driving licences on line, is there a practical reason why on line testing can't?
		
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The theory?
Too easy to cheat...
Plus you have to show licence and be identified....


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 16, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Watching the live presser I now think the UK strategy is better than others where I didn't a couple days ago. 

The UK are introducing things that other countries didn't, they just shut down where ours is based upon slowing the progress, social isolation etc etc. 

Very annoyed about absolutely no mention of those us us that are self employed and it's all about businesses yet what support does the single self employed person get...nothing.
		
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As someone who runs a small manufacturing business on an industrial estate I can assure you that we are getting exactly the same assistance as you are, nothing.


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## Fish (Mar 16, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Good to see the online platforms are clamping down on this.  I bet there's a few people in the UK who have bought shedloads to sell in ebay too but if both Amazon and ebay are clamping restricting/stopping sales of these products.
Sadly there will always be parasites who will want to profit from the misfortune of others.
		
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I delivered 2 pallets containing 22,000 individual small hand sanitizers to a private address in Bristol, with the figures I know he bought the stock for and what he’ll sell them for on devils bay, he has the potential to make £100k quick profit with no shortage of customers.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			The theory?
Too easy to cheat...
Plus you have to show licence and be identified....
		
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Ta


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

Anyone got a link to where the government info is online? Two complete bellends on the boat talked all over the bit I was most interested in but I did hear one of them say about putting all the info online. Have tried to find it through the gov.uk website but haven't found it yet.

EDIT - it's the bit about who apart from older people should be staying at home that I'm looking for.

2nd EDIT - just found the statement in full so will have a read....

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-statement-on-coronavirus-16-march-2020


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Children being kept off school in their droves.

Playparks were quite full when I walked past them today at lunch and I saw lots of families at the supermarket...


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## rudebhoy (Mar 16, 2020)

So BJ is telling folk to avoid pubs, clubs, theatres and restaurants, but he's not going to close them? What sort of policy is that?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 16, 2020)

I'm off to teach a course in Birmingham tomorrow. I'll have to eat tuesday and Wednesday. Probably avoid the pub though


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## Jimaroid (Mar 16, 2020)

Seems like a lot of rambling contradictory messaging going on in that.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So BJ is telling folk to avoid pubs, clubs, theatres and restaurants, but he's not going to close them? What sort of policy is that?
		
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He's probably expecting people to use their common sense and hoping that you specifically do not need to be told you are barred from them?


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## rosecott (Mar 16, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Seems like a lot of rambling contradictory messaging going on in that.
		
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With the huge range of possibilities, it would be extremely difficult for people to decide if their planned activity goes against advice. I have cancelled our normal Tuesday QR for tomorrow to prevent people milling about in our Spike Bar to find out into which group they have been drawn. I have left it up to those who wish to turn up to play to make their own arrangements using the tee times I have booked. That way there will be no contact in a confined space. This is a temporary measure until the advice becomes clearer. Our next scheduled comp is the Seniors on Friday.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			He's probably expecting people to use their common sense and hoping that you specifically do not need to be told you are barred from them?
		
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So pubs and restaurants should open and we just rely on "common sense" and no one will go to them? What a ridiculous cop out as well as being incredibly badly thought out.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

rosecott said:



			W*ith the huge range of possibilities, it would be extremely difficult for people to decide if their planned activity goes against advice*. I have cancelled our normal Tuesday QR for tomorrow to prevent people milling about in our Spike Bar to find out into which group they have been drawn. I have left it up to those who wish to turn up to play to make their own arrangements using the tee times I have booked. That way there will be no contact in a confined space. This is a temporary measure until the advice becomes clearer. Our next scheduled comp is the Seniors on Friday.
		
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Expect there will be loads of this in the short term, me and the Mrs are currently deciding if a badminton club for me and a Girl Guides meeting for her are essential as we were both down to attend them this evening.  Think in all probability they are not essential so we won't bother.  As with a lot of things, what was previously normal in every day life will not be normal and we will have to quickly adapt to the new normal.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



*So pubs and restaurants should open* and we just rely on "common sense" and no one will go to them? What a ridiculous cop out as well as being incredibly badly thought out.
		
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I'm kind of guessing a lot will not open.


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm kind of guessing a lot will not open.
		
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That's pretty much what happened here in Spain. Most bars and restaurants decided to close before official notice from the Spanish govt. They beat the drop by 24 hrs. Some are offering a collect service but payment must be by contactless - no cash.


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## rosecott (Mar 16, 2020)

Just been informed that the Daily Mail Foursomes has been suspended.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

I also suspect that the government are making a lot of this up as they go along in the best possible way a very rapidly moving situation where lives are at stake. Big plans usually take days/weeks/months, and in some cases they have a few hours to react to new information about how the virus is spreading both here and overseas. So whilst I am not the biggest fan of the current government, expecting them to have all the answers to all the problems the latest measures will undoubtedly create is a bit unrealistic IMHO.

There you go, bit of balance, normal service will be resumed soon.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just been informed that the Daily Mail Foursomes has been suspended.
		
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Remove the word Foursomes from that statement and that would have been the best news I've heard in ages


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			So pubs and restaurants should open and we just rely on "common sense" and no one will go to them? What a ridiculous cop out as well as being incredibly badly thought out.
		
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Rubbish.  He's giving people the chance to behave responsibly - and if and when they don't, people  can't moan when he is obliged to order them closed


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

Just seen the groups that will be looking at 12 weeks of isolation;

Those over 70.
Pregnant women.
Other adults who would normally be advised to get the flu vaccine.

Due to severe asthma Mrs Colch has to get the flu vaccine every year so falls into the third group. Now just need to find out what that means for my two boys with regards to school. There seems very little point in her isolating for 12 weeks if the kids are going to school every day and coming into contact with hundreds of other kids and then going home and potentially passing it on.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Rubbish.  He's giving people the chance to behave responsibly - and if and when they don't, people  can't moan when he is obliged to order them closed
		
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Given the history of Boris doing his homework on the bus, not thinking through many of his decisions and taking things by chance more often than not, it’s much more likely that he’s just got it wrong. Again.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			He's probably expecting people to use their common sense and hoping that you specifically do not need to be told you are barred from them?
		
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Wont happen tho .. we tried that and pubs still packed in dublin . Some will ruin it for the many and closure is all that will stop it . Video of british tourists ignoring the shut down in spain doing rounds  on  twitter


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## rudebhoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Rubbish.  He's giving people the chance to behave responsibly - and if and when they don't, people  can't moan when he is obliged to order them closed
		
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If Labour were in power and said we are going to rely on everyone being nice and sensible rather than putting proper measures in place, they would get slaughtered and rightly so.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 16, 2020)

America has no central government to speak of, but the individual states are shutting down just about everything but supermarkets and pharmacies. 
Restaurants can only provide take out service and the bars are shut down altogether.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 16, 2020)

Now that I've calmed down , I can confidently say "that" statement was the biggest political "sloping of shoulders" that I've ever come across.  Dropping all small & medium sized businesses in the mire without taking on any responsibility. Outrageous.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 16, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			America has no central government to speak of, but the individual states are shutting down just about everything but supermarkets and pharmacies.
Restaurants can only provide take out service and the bars are shut down altogether.
		
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Sister lives in Michigan. They've been home (UK) for 10 days and got home yesterday to find just that - schools, shops, bars, restaurants all shut (apart from supermarkets). She said in the 10 days since they left the attitude had changed hugely.


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## Fish (Mar 16, 2020)

Email from my home club; societies cancelled immediately and throughout April, all our Tuesday night draw nights postponed until end of April, Mother’s Day lunch cancelled, all external comps being held at our club postponed, all these postponements may be extended dependent on circumstances as they arise.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Sister lives in Michigan. They've been home (UK) for 10 days and got home yesterday to find just that - schools, shops, bars, restaurants all shut (apart from supermarkets). She said in the 10 days since they left the attitude had changed hugely.
		
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It's bad, no question.
They're lucky, perhaps, that they were allowed to come home.  Travel restrictions are getting severe.
Frankly, I suspect and fear that they may have been safer in the UK.


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## Andy (Mar 16, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Now that I've calmed down , I can confidently say "that" statement was the biggest political "sloping of shoulders" that I've ever come across.  Dropping all small & medium sized businesses in the mire without taking on any responsibility. Outrageous.
		
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Did you honestly expect anything else?


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## AmandaJR (Mar 16, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			It's bad, no question.
They're lucky, perhaps, that they were allowed to come home.  Travel restrictions are getting severe.
Frankly, I suspect and fear that they may have been safer in the UK.
		
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I think much later a return and they may have had to stay. They came with their grandson so his parents have been a tad worried! They are all quarantined for 14 days at the moment.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 16, 2020)

Andy said:



			Did you honestly expect anything else?
		
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Not really, no.  But it still got my dander up.


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## louise_a (Mar 16, 2020)

I cannot help being a bit cynical and wondering why Boris told people to avoid pubs etc rather than saying they have to be closed. Would the businesses have a claim against the government if they told them to close?


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

louise_a said:



			I cannot help being a bit cynical and wondering why Boris told people to avoid pubs etc rather than saying they have to be closed. Would the businesses have a claim against the government if they told them to close?
		
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Just been reading that if the government had ordered businesses to close then they could have claimed on their insurance. As Boris has told people to stay away and not told them to close they can't claim. Seems like it he's managed to throw a lot of businesses under the bus with this announcement. Meanwhile in France Macron has announced government backed loans totalling 300 billion will be made available to struggling businesses.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just been reading that if the government had ordered businesses to close then they could have claimed on their insurance. As Boris has told people to stay away and not told them to close they can't claim. Seems like it he's managed to throw a lot of businesses under the bus with this announcement. Meanwhile in France Macron has announced government backed loans totalling 300 billion will be made available to struggling businesses.
		
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I read it and still dont understand who should be self isolating  for 12 weeks.


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## Andy (Mar 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I read it and still dont understand who should be self isolating  for 12 weeks.
		
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Underlying medical conditions I think? 🤔


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## Fish (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just been reading that if the government had ordered businesses to close then they could have claimed on their insurance. As Boris has told people to stay away and not told them to close they can't claim. Seems like it he's managed to throw a lot of businesses under the bus with this announcement. Meanwhile in France Macron has announced government backed loans totalling 300 billion will be made available to struggling businesses.
		
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And where’s he borrowing 300b from🤔


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

Andy said:



			Underlying medical conditions I think? 🤔
		
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What if you're 70 with no underlying medical conditions?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish said:



			And where’s he borrowing 300b from🤔
		
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Government bonds I expect


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## Jimaroid (Mar 16, 2020)

I’ve read the statement twice and still none the wiser. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-statement-on-coronavirus-16-march-2020


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Wife is 31. Pregnant , asthma ..wasn't overly clear what she should do


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

Fish said:



			And where’s he borrowing 300b from🤔
		
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I'm not sure that's too important right now. It's more that the money will be made available if required. In the UK small and medium sized businesses account for 3/5 of employment and half of turnover in the private sector. Many of these are going to struggle over the next few months and if there is no support from the government then many will go bust with not all being able to come back when it's all over. If that happens then the economy and the country will be screwed. We're living in unprecedented times and these businesses will be needed for the prosperity of the country going forward. All Boris has done is shaft them by not ordering them to close so at least some of them can claim on their insurance.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Wife is 31. Pregnant , asthma ..wasn't overly clear what she should do
		
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My reading of it is that from next weekend she should isolate for up to 12 weeks as she's in two of the categories mentioned.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My reading of it is that from next weekend she should isolate for up to 12 weeks as she's in two of the categories mentioned.
		
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It's very unclear , very vague 

Work haven't told her yet. Another school called all pregnent employees and said don't come in

She hasn't had a call yet

They may close the schools from next week anyways 

Very messy


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## User20204 (Mar 16, 2020)

I hate the tories with utter disdain  and if it were possible would blame them for this outbreak but I fail to see what else the government can do other than what they have been doing.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's very unclear , very vague

Work haven't told her yet. Another school called all pregnent employees and said don't come in

She hasn't had a call yet

They may close the schools from next week anyways

Very messy
		
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This is from the BBC article (about half way down).....

"Chief medical adviser Prof Chris Whitty said the group of people who should take "particular care to minimise their social contact" were:

People over the age of 70
Other adults who would normally be advised to have the flu vaccine (such as those with chronic diseases)
Pregnant women"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51917562


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is from the BBC article (about half way down).....

"Chief medical adviser Prof Chris Whitty said the group of people who should take "particular care to minimise their social contact" were:

People over the age of 70
Other adults who would normally be advised to have the flu vaccine (such as those with chronic diseases)
Pregnant women"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51917562

Click to expand...

The key part is social contact 

Work isn't social which they have been very clever with saying

She is going to speak to work tomorrow


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

I'm a little suprised with local golf comps being cancelled.  surely by nature of golf we can be responsible and play a round of without contaminating our playing partners.  blimey, at best I'm constantly 150 yards away from my playing partners (sideways that it).  I understand the clubhouse situation though


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I hate the tories with utter disdain  and if it were possible would blame them for this outbreak but I fail to see what else the government can do other than what they have been doing.
		
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I'm pretty much the opposite. Generally my political leanings are right of centre. Up until the last couple of days I thought they'd been handling it OK but now I think they're dropping the ball. The advice all seems to be very wishy-washy with no absolute clear guidance. You only have to look at some of the replies on here to see that lots of people will have very little idea of who should be doing what and when. Either shut bars, restaurants etc or don't. But don't simply advise people to stay away. It's as though they're scared to make a decision in case it's the wrong one. That's not a sign of good leadership.


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm pretty much the opposite. Generally my political leanings are right of centre. Up until the last couple of days I thought they'd been handling it OK but now I think they're dropping the ball. The advice all seems to be very wishy-washy with no absolute clear guidance. You only have to look at some of the replies on here to see that lots of people will have very little idea of who should be doing what and when. Either shut bars, restaurants etc or don't. But don't simply advise people to stay away. It's as though they're scared to make a decision in case it's the wrong one. That's not a sign of good leadership.
		
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to me it's simple and very clear what the government are saying. I don't need to see a closed sign on a bar or restaurant window not to go in.  Boris said stay away from social places so I will.  how more simple can that be!


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## Jimaroid (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			to me it's simple and very clear what the government are saying. I don't need to see a closed sign on a bar or restaurant window not to go in.  Boris said stay away from social places so I will.  how more simple can that be!
		
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Not at all simple if you’re the landlord or an employer.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			to me it's simple and very clear what the government are saying. I don't need to see a closed sign on a bar or restaurant window not to go in.  Boris said stay away from social places so I will.  how more simple can that be!
		
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And if you're the owner of that business who is unable to claim insurance for business disruption because Boris hasn't ordered you to close but has told your customers not to visit?


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## GB72 (Mar 16, 2020)

I get a feeling that the advice will change if needed. Today is advice, don't cause panic and give people the chance to act and behave responsibly. Give it a couple of days and closures will be enforced if people cannot act responsibly but the news is already out there and so may illicit a less panicked response.


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## User20204 (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			And if you're the owner of that business who is unable to claim insurance for business disruption because Boris hasn't ordered you to close but has told your customers not to visit?
		
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Never mind the business owners, what about their employees or those who depend on the customers of these businesses. There is an enormous knock on effect for many many more than just these business owners.


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			And if you're the owner of that business who is unable to claim insurance for business disruption because Boris hasn't ordered you to close but has told your customers not to visit?
		
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and then people would just be saying that Boris has just crushed the insurance industry because he "ordered"  the closures.  if only he just said "stay away" then it would have been OK.  unfortunately there are going to be loosers no matter what way he went


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I get a feeling that the advice will change if needed. Today is advice, don't cause panic and give people the chance to act and behave responsibly. Give it a couple of days and closures will be enforced if people cannot act responsibly but the news is already out there and so may illicit a less panicked response.
		
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exactly.  so many experts that think they no how to better run a country 🙄


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			to me it's simple and very clear what the government are saying. I don't need to see a closed sign on a bar or restaurant window not to go in.  Boris said stay away from social places so I will.  how more simple can that be!
		
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It can simply make the edict.  The Scottish Government asked organisers to cancel or postpone the event despite not having the power to do so.  Boris asks people not to go, thus passing on the onus to the individual.  I was holding tickets costing £228 for a theatre show tonight.  If I make the decision not to go I lose £228; if the show is cancelled then I get a refund.  Boris should be doing what the Scottish Government did.


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It can simply make the edict.  The Scottish Government asked organisers to cancel or postpone the event despite not having the power to do so.  Boris asks people not to go, thus passing on the onus to the individual.  I was holding tickets costing £228 for a theatre show tonight.  If I make the decision not to go I lose £228; if the show is cancelled then I get a refund.  Boris should be doing what the Scottish Government did.
		
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so it's boris's fault that you lost £228?  really?   I recently managed to get one day of skiing in Italy.  if Boris had advised against travel to Italy 2 days earlier I wouldn't have lost £700.  its not his fault its the virus fault.   its up to the organisers of your event to do the honorable thing and allow you to cancel.  its not the prime misters fault that they are going to stiff you for the money


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			exactly.  so many experts that think they no how to better run a country 🙄
		
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Yeah imagine being one of those experts that thinks that they know better how to run a country........



hovis said:



			I just can't get my head round governments decision around the world.  we have a deadly virus in China that's spreading like wild fire.  I know let's bring all them people back into our country!!!!!  at the time it initially broke out I remember saying "it's simple, no one leaves the country unless tested or had 14 days isolation".

that clearly is a massive task to undertake but look at where we are now.   if it was that simple to a thicko like me then why wasn't this carried out?
		
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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yeah imagine being one of those experts that thinks that they know better how to run a country........
		
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yeh, and.  I said I can't get my head round what seemed to be a simple decision!.  I imagine if it was that easy It would have been done.  I'd like to know why it wasn't


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## backwoodsman (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			and then people would just be saying that Boris has just crushed the insurance industry because he "ordered"  the closures.  if only he just said "stay away" then it would have been OK.  unfortunately there are going to be loosers no matter what way he went
		
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So, we're  comfortable that Boris seems to be protecting big business whilst stuffing small to medium enterprises -  and more importantly,  their employees?  The financial markets are not the be all & end all of the British economy  - which needs to be safeguarded as much as our public health.


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			So, we're  comfortable that Boris seems to be protecting big business whilst stuffing small to medium enterprises -  and more importantly,  their employees?  The financial markets are not the be all & end all of the British economy  - which needs to be safeguarded as much as our public health.
		
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not all insurance companies are big. and the big ones employ staff too.  unfortunately we're in a crap situation. people are going to suffer no matter what road he takes.  I'm sure people who sit at a desk selling insurance would have a different opinion to you


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## Kellfire (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			not all insurance companies are big. and the big ones employ staff too.  unfortunately we're in a crap situation. people are going to suffer no matter what road he takes.  I'm sure people who sit at a desk selling insurance would have a different opinion to you
		
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What’s the point in an insurance company if they can’t survive something like this? They exist exactly for situations like this!


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What’s the point in an insurance company if they can’t survive something like this? They exist exactly for situations like this!
		
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after the floods I wouldn't like to see the books of even the biggest companies.  if anything, the insurance industry has already taken one almighty beating


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			so it's boris's fault that you lost £228?  really?   I recently managed to get one day of skiing in Italy.  if Boris had advised against travel to Italy 2 days earlier I wouldn't have lost £700.  its not his fault its the virus fault.   its up to the organisers of your event to do the honorable thing and allow you to cancel.  its not the prime misters fault that they are going to stiff you for the money
		
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I didn't say the virus was his fault; I said the lack of leadership was the issue.  Someone else on here (Robster59?) pointed out that after the Scottish Government's pronouncement the show he was due to see was cancelled & patrons advised that they would be refunded.  The Scottish Government took the bull by the horns & lead.    

Boris's advice of don't go left the onus on the patrons to shoulder the cost.  Make the pronouncement & then we can get the money back via the ticket insurance.  Just don't bother to turn up & you shoulder the cost with no recourse to your insurance.

He wanted the job of leader, I'm expecting him to lead (but I'm not holding my breath...).


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What’s the point in an insurance company if they can’t survive something like this? They exist exactly for situations like this!
		
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Do they?

Generally they walk a fine like of likely scenarios. Winning some and losing some. Not sure a worldwide pandemic is one they can plan for. The amount this is gonna cost everyone would have required them charging unimaginable premiums I’d have thought.


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## SteveW86 (Mar 16, 2020)

Been emailed by work this evening, come into the office tomorrow to collect everything I may need to work from home as that’s what I’ll be doing until further notice.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

Our office have started looking into working at home.
Its not realistic tbh. Unless we intend on having articulated trucks come to my village for paperwork, yet they‘re adamant they have a plan


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I didn't say the virus was his fault; I said the lack of leadership was the issue.  Someone else on here (Robster59?) pointed out that after the Scottish Government's pronouncement the show he was due to see was cancelled & patrons advised that they would be refunded.  The Scottish Government took the bull by the horns & lead.    

Boris's advice of don't go left the onus on the patrons to shoulder the cost.  Make the pronouncement & then we can get the money back via the ticket insurance.  Just don't bother to turn up & you shoulder the cost with no recourse to your insurance.

He wanted the job of leader, I'm expecting him to lead (but I'm not holding my breath...).
		
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some one at some point has to absorb the cost.    this seems like "pull the ladder up jack"   unfortunately the prime ministers decision cost an individual £200+ .   brush it off and move on.  i would have liked Boris to act sooner on Italian travel advice.  he didn't. oh well.  I lost alot of money.  to ask someone else to take on my loss isn't fair.  crap happens


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I didn't say the virus was his fault; I said the lack of leadership was the issue.  Someone else on here (Robster59?) pointed out that after the Scottish Government's pronouncement the show he was due to see was cancelled & patrons advised that they would be refunded.  The Scottish Government took the bull by the horns & lead.   

Boris's advice of don't go left the onus on the patrons to shoulder the cost.  Make the pronouncement & then we can get the money back via the ticket insurance.  Just don't bother to turn up & you shoulder the cost with no recourse to your insurance.

He wanted the job of leader, I'm expecting him to lead (but I'm not holding my breath...).
		
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Maybe by not making the decision he's creating the climate for the herd immunity to happen. Some people won't go out, and others will. Staggered infection rather than almost stopping it in its tracks. Personally I think he's got it wrong but it does go some way to achieving what he said a few days ago.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			So, we're  comfortable that Boris seems to be protecting big business whilst stuffing small to medium enterprises -  and more importantly,  their employees?  The financial markets are not the be all & end all of the British economy  - which needs to be safeguarded as much as our public health.
		
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Just look at what's happening in other countries. I spoke with my Son in Chicago last night, their schools are closed, all bars and eating places are shut, only drive throughs open, his company are having people working from home but hes not sure how long they will stay open for business. Many countries have everyone on lock down.   It's not time to play silly political blame games.


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## Hobbit (Mar 16, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Our office have started looking into working at home.
Its not realistic tbh. Unless we intend on having articulated trucks come to my village for paperwork, yet they‘re adamant they have a plan 

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Does it have to be printed at home? Why can't it be printed in a central location - no trucks that way.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 16, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Our office have started looking into working at home.
Its not realistic tbh. Unless we intend on having articulated trucks come to my village for paperwork, yet they‘re adamant they have a plan 

Click to expand...

As have ours.  All our systems are Windows based, my home computer is an Apple so I don't see that working well & the phone I need to get the security app to work from home is so hopelessly ou of date it can't cope with it.  looks like I'll be the one covering the office then.


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Does it have to be printed at home? Why can't it be printed in a central location - no trucks that way.
		
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blimey.  how much printing does he do😀


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			As have ours.  All our systems are Windows based, my home computer is an Apple so I don't see that working well & the phone I need to get the security app to work from home is so hopelessly ou of date it can't cope with it.  looks like I'll be the one covering the office then.
		
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Realistically I'm one of a few that could at least do the paperwork side from home as a few of the gents still prefer a fax.... 

But logistically it simply won't work. It's noticeably quieter already as less and less factories are sending goods that aren't deemed vital.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			As have ours.  All our systems are Windows based, my home computer is an Apple so I don't see that working well & the phone I need to get the security app to work from home is so hopelessly ou of date it can't cope with it.  looks like I'll be the one covering the office then.
		
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Doesnt sound much to sort out.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Does it have to be printed at home? Why can't it be printed in a central location - no trucks that way.
		
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The drivers need paperwork from us that they then present to customs. There is an option to have one central agent clear it in Dover but they refuse to retain certain documents that are required for duty breaks. We could clear on copies underagreement the conaonies will post to us but as we're are AEO registered our directors don't really work in grey areas.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The drivers need paperwork from us that they then present to customs. There is an option to have one central agent clear it in Dover but they refuse to retain certain documents that are required for duty breaks. We could clear on copies underagreement the conaonies will post to us but as we're are AEO registered our directors don't really work in grey areas.
		
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Theres probably a reason against but why cant you send the drivers an electronic copy and they print it out?


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It can simply make the edict.  The Scottish Government asked organisers to cancel or postpone the event despite not having the power to do so.  Boris asks people not to go, thus passing on the onus to the individual.  I was holding tickets costing £228 for a theatre show tonight.  If I make the decision not to go I lose £228; if the show is cancelled then I get a refund.  Boris should be doing what the Scottish Government did.
		
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just on the news that the something theatre society has closed them due to risk.  looks good for your refund


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## Robster59 (Mar 16, 2020)

I was driving down from Glasgow to Chester today for meetings in Shropshire and Wales.  
Immediately after the government announcement, the Shropshire customer called me to cancel the meeting. I then contacted the Welsh customer and they have said they still want to see me. 
Come tomorrow morning I can see either my company or the customers company saying we have to cancel it.  The only good thing is that the Welsh customer is away from any major conurbations and we can do the work we need to outside with minimal impact.  
I can see this being my last customer facing trip for some time.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Well I think you all can gather from my posts I'm very particular and if something doesn't sit right I question it

I msde my wife message the deputy head who called the trust 

None of the pregnent staff will be coming in

All the girls she works with are very grateful to me ATM


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Theres probably a reason against but why cant you send the drivers an electronic copy and they print it out?
		
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couple of reasons, 
1, if you don’t make them come and collect it, quite a few have been known to drive straight to a delivery point. So no duty and vat collected. 2, currently our company still require the docs they carry to negate any duty owed. 
3, quite often extra loads collected that were weren’t advised of and only find out when their docs don’t tie up. 
4, probably the main reason. Approx 25% of the vehicles will have loads being cleared by more than one agent. So requires them going to more than one agent on arrival. It’s before my but nobody really dies a rival any favours as it (the industry) became a bit of a rat race when the eu borders opened up


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Well I think you all can gather from my posts I'm very particular and if something doesn't sit right I question it

I msde my wife message the deputy head who called the trust

None of the pregnent staff will be coming in

All the girls she works with are very grateful to me ATM
		
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I think She’s fortunate to work somewhere in the public sector.
Could be some hard times for people who won’t get pay if they effectively choose to not work.

To be clear, I think you’ve done the right thing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			If Labour were in power and said we are going to rely on everyone being nice and sensible rather than putting proper measures in place, they would get slaughtered and rightly so.
		
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Why are you bringing party politics into this. He ( acting on the advice of scientists, or do you think he and his government are not?) is asking for voluntary action by the public in the first instance. If, as is likely, they being selfish do not respond, he will have to order it and then back it up with the police and the army( hope not)
And perhaps you would inform us what you consider " proper measures" are?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			couple of reasons,
1, if you don’t make them come and collect it, quite a few have been known to drive straight to a delivery point. So no duty and vat collected. 2, currently our company still require the docs they carry to negate any duty owed.
3, quite often extra loads collected that were weren’t advised of and only find out when their docs don’t tie up.
4, probably the main reason. Approx 25% of the vehicles will have loads being cleared by more than one agent. So requires them going to more than one agent on arrival. It’s before my but nobody really dies a rival any favours as it (the industry) became a bit of a rat race when the eu borders opened up
		
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Are these Drivers employed by your company.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Are these Drivers employed by your company.
		
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No.
These are drivers that collect goods from all over Europe and then we clear them to either import into the uk or export back out.


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## IainP (Mar 16, 2020)

Not being China, there is a part of me that thinks maybe the government are trying to walk that line where the majority of the public moves to "lock us down for our own safety", rather than diving in and dictating.


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## Fromtherough (Mar 16, 2020)

We’re advised to socially distance ourselves, sporting events have been cancelled, mass gatherings banned, working from home encouraged and vulnerable people told to self isolate. However, schools remain open. I understand the childcare argument  and potential connotations to the NHS (although I’d be interested to see if the evidence confirms the fear that many front line staff are primary carers). 

But... keeping schools open feels wrong, almost like we’re putting children in harms way when our usual mission is to protect them at all costs. Kids pick up bugs/viruses all the time at school, it happens. Usually the symptoms aren’t any where near as serious as what we’re seeing with Coronavirus though.  

I’ve received emails tonight confirming my 7 years olds dancing/brownies/gymnastics activities have all been cancelled. All grassroots football has been cancelled. Surely, sitting in a building For 6+ hours a day, notorious for spreading diseases at the best of times and surrounded by other kids potentially coughing and spluttering is not the safest of places to be presently.


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## hovis (Mar 16, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			We’re advised to socially distance ourselves, sporting events have been cancelled, mass gatherings banned, working from home encouraged and vulnerable people told to self isolate. However, schools remain open. I understand the childcare argument  and potential connotations to the NHS (although I’d be interested to see if the evidence confirms the fear that many front line staff are primary carers). 

But... keeping schools open feels wrong, almost like we’re putting children in harms way when our usual mission is to protect them at all costs. Kids pick up bugs/viruses all the time at school, it happens. Usually the symptoms aren’t any where near as serious as what we’re seeing with Coronavirus though.  

I’ve received emails tonight confirming my 7 years olds dancing/brownies/gymnastics activities have all been cancelled. All grassroots football has been cancelled. Surely, sitting in a building For 6+ hours a day, notorious for spreading diseases at the best of times and surrounded by other kids potentially coughing and spluttering is not the safest of places to be presently.
		
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a guy I was stuck in Italy with is on some head teachers board.  he is adamant that schools will close on Friday.  this coupled with the easter break will give children 4 weeks off.   watch this space


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## Jacko_G (Mar 16, 2020)

Descending into political point scoring by a few. How surprising!

🤔


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I think She’s fortunate to work somewhere in the public sector.
Could be some hard times for people who won’t get pay if they effectively choose to not work.

To be clear, I think you’ve done the right thing.
		
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100% we are lucky we picked these careers

My company has said if we go off self isolation it's paid special leave instead of sick to avoid people getting sick warnings 

Very fortunate

I'll now work as much as possible to avoid being at home lol full


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## SocketRocket (Mar 16, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			We’re advised to socially distance ourselves, sporting events have been cancelled, mass gatherings banned, working from home encouraged and vulnerable people told to self isolate. However, schools remain open. I understand the childcare argument  and potential connotations to the NHS (although I’d be interested to see if the evidence confirms the fear that many front line staff are primary carers).

But... keeping schools open feels wrong, almost like we’re putting children in harms way when our usual mission is to protect them at all costs. Kids pick up bugs/viruses all the time at school, it happens. Usually the symptoms aren’t any where near as serious as what we’re seeing with Coronavirus though. 

I’ve received emails tonight confirming my 7 years olds dancing/brownies/gymnastics activities have all been cancelled. All grassroots football has been cancelled. Surely, sitting in a building For 6+ hours a day, notorious for spreading diseases at the best of times and surrounded by other kids potentially coughing and spluttering is not the safest of places to be presently.
		
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Teachers are probably concerned about going in.  My three Grandsons  schools in the USA are closed and they are doing on line classes.


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## IainP (Mar 16, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			We’re advised to socially distance ourselves, sporting events have been cancelled, mass gatherings banned, working from home encouraged and vulnerable people told to self isolate. However, schools remain open. I understand the childcare argument  and potential connotations to the NHS (although I’d be interested to see if the evidence confirms the fear that many front line staff are primary carers).

But... keeping schools open feels wrong, almost like we’re putting children in harms way when our usual mission is to protect them at all costs. Kids pick up bugs/viruses all the time at school, it happens. Usually the symptoms aren’t any where near as serious as what we’re seeing with Coronavirus though. 

I’ve received emails tonight confirming my 7 years olds dancing/brownies/gymnastics activities have all been cancelled. All grassroots football has been cancelled. Surely, sitting in a building For 6+ hours a day, notorious for spreading diseases at the best of times and surrounded by other kids potentially coughing and spluttering is not the safest of places to be presently.
		
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As has been said they may be closing shortly. On the symptoms, was listening to someone from one of the countries "ahead" of us, and they were saying; although they didn't fully understand it,  children seemed to generally have been impacted in a less serious way than adults.
Doesn't take away the "pass it on" risk though


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			100% we are lucky we picked these careers

My company has said if we go off self isolation it's paid special leave instead of sick to avoid people getting sick warnings

Very fortunate

I'll now work as much as possible to avoid being at home lol full
		
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My missus literally started a new job a week ago. 

Woke with a temp. Of 38 this morning and was told to take 2 weeks paid. 

My company whilst "understanding" I'd need to be off to look after the kids graciously offered me to use my holiday allaowmce if my April holiday is cancelled 😂


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## williamalex1 (Mar 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Well I think you all can gather from my posts I'm very particular and if something doesn't sit right I question it

I msde my wife message the deputy head who called the trust

None of the pregnent staff will be coming in

All the girls she works with are very grateful to me ATM
		
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Well done Paul, how many girls did you make pregnant


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			My missus literally started a new job a week ago.

Woke with a temp. Of 38 this morning and was told to take 2 weeks paid.

My company whilst "understanding" I'd need to be off to look after the kids graciously offered me to use my holiday allaowmce if my April holiday is cancelled 😂
		
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It's a joke really .. so many people going to lose so much 

I've put the thought in my dad's head to retire now 

He's 62

Wants to go November 1st

Has issues with lungs in past etc 

I've said why bother going work. Can't work from home . He owes them nothing they have ruined his pension there only his pension from another company will actually be worth anyways so just go now for his health


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Well done Paul, how many girls did you make pregnant 

Click to expand...

No comment my wife could read this 🤣


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## rudebhoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why are you bringing party politics into this. He ( acting on the advice of scientists, or do you think he and his government are not?) is asking for voluntary action by the public in the first instance. If, as is likely, they being selfish do not respond, he will have to order it and then back it up with the police and the army( hope not)
And perhaps you would inform us what you consider " proper measures" are?
		
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Proper measures? - ban mass gatherings, close pubs etc to avoid putting staff and punters at risk. Even Trump has done this, all this blithering idiot can do is say "we are not going to support mass gatherings " - what does that even mean?

Provide some meaningful support for business like Macron is doing.

BJ is totally failing to provide leadership. And he is getting a very easy ride from the press. Nothing new there.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 16, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			We’re advised to socially distance ourselves, sporting events have been cancelled, mass gatherings banned, working from home encouraged and vulnerable people told to self isolate. However, schools remain open. I understand the childcare argument  and potential connotations to the NHS (although I’d be interested to see if the evidence confirms the fear that many front line staff are primary carers).

*But... keeping schools open feels wrong, almost like we’re putting children in harms way when our usual mission is to protect them at all costs. *Kids pick up bugs/viruses all the time at school, it happens. Usually the symptoms aren’t any where near as serious as what we’re seeing with Coronavirus though. 

I’ve received emails tonight confirming my 7 years olds dancing/brownies/gymnastics activities have all been cancelled. All grassroots football has been cancelled. Surely, sitting in a building For 6+ hours a day, notorious for spreading diseases at the best of times and surrounded by other kids potentially coughing and spluttering is not the safest of places to be presently.
		
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At this time one could argue the misson is to protect the elderly and vulnerable at all costs. Current science says kids are statistically a lot less likely to die of this, so the government is not doing as much to protect them as it is the elderly and vulnerable.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 16, 2020)

Getting tedious now. Just unnecessary disruption for the majority. Even more annoyed that I‘ve not got it and not getting that sweet full sick pay. 

Feel sorry for those who have to use annual leave, those who have been laid off, small businesses. Just exorbitant. And I’m getting suspicious.


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## GB72 (Mar 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			a guy I was stuck in Italy with is on some head teachers board.  he is adamant that schools will close on Friday.  this coupled with the easter break will give children 4 weeks off.   watch this space
		
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I have also heard that schools will close on Friday


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## rudebhoy (Mar 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			At this time one could argue the misson is to protect the elderly and vulnerable at all costs. Current science says kids are statistically a lot less likely to die of this, so the government is not doing as much to protect them as it is the elderly and vulnerable.
		
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By keeping the schools open, a lot more kids will catch the virus and pass it on to other family members including the elderly.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			By keeping the schools open, a lot more kids will catch the virus and pass it on to other family members including the elderly.
		
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Not if the old self isolate as advised.

There could be a stark choice for grandparents. 
Don't see grandkids for a few months and then see em for years. 

Or see em for the next few months. Full stop.


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## robinthehood (Mar 16, 2020)

I'm working from  home from tomorrow untill further notice.


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## GB72 (Mar 16, 2020)

Out of interest I have had 2 local restaurants comment on social media that global pandemic is not covered on their insurance and so a forced closure would not have allowed a claim


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## Crow (Mar 16, 2020)

There is going to have to be a global balancing of books once we're though this, talking about which businesses will fail, who will get compensation, who should pay for this or that is pointless at this stage.

The whole world has to solve this pandemic together and then we should look for the best way to pick up the pieces.


Coming back to the affect on me personally, I'd been planning to semi-retire for some time on 31st March and handed in my notice a couple of months back.
The stock market crash has thrown my plan into disarray.
I'm 60, I'm type 1 diabetic, have a heart condition, and am on the flu vaccine programme so I tick a number of boxes for the 12 week self isolation, just when I was hoping to start playing golf 3 or 4 times a week!

No, it's not been good but shit happens, I'm still alive and hope to be in 18 months time when things might be getting back to normal.


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## drdel (Mar 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Proper measures? - ban mass gatherings, close pubs etc to avoid putting staff and punters at risk. Even Trump has done this, all this blithering idiot can do is say "we are not going to support mass gatherings " - what does that even mean?

Provide some meaningful support for business like Macron is doing.

BJ is totally failing to provide leadership. And he is getting a very easy ride from the press. Nothing new there.
		
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If you listened to the PM you would have heard that he said they would not "support" big events with NHS staff because they do not want medics to be diverted from their core purpose. 

The government intends to release business support plans in due course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As I write there are three men standing fair and square in front of the Nation telling us how they intend to proceed.
Stop this carping on about a man with horns in the background deciding other different strategies that we aren't being told about.
You always seem to need someone to be the baddie . Party politics is not involved in this!
		
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I have no issue whatsoever with everything that the government is doing in conjunction with its scientific and medical advisors. And I have no better or different alternative. I trust in what I am hearing and what I am being told I must do. I simply wish that Cummings was not involved given his track record. That’s not political - it’s just him. I remain impressed with the way Johnson is handling this. I want to hear a bit more about the government will support business, self-employed, the unsalaried with minimum or no employment rights and the poorest individuals.  Because if hope goes then we risk anarchy.

I hear this evening an interview with the Times science editor (from an official briefing given this evening by the governments modelling and analysis team) that this could go on for many months more than the 3-4 currently suggested - potentially 9 months - a year.  Some of us will be able to cope just about ok through whatever is required - many many just wont.  The Times guy painted a very worrying and very scary picture of our future.

My irritation that Cummings is involved is irrelevant and I dismiss it as such.


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## shagster (Mar 17, 2020)

looking at china, especially wuhan, it looks like they are starting to get back to normal after mass isolation
we seem too slow to stop flights, events etc
several selfish people who decided to go abroad, are now self isolating so we have to cover these for no extra pay
we have been too slow to react on everything


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## chrisd (Mar 17, 2020)

Crow said:



			No, it's not been good but shit happens, I'm still alive and hope to be in 18 months time when things might be getting back to normal.
		
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And I'm sure that we all hope you are still around in 28 years time 👍


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2020)

SiL has just closed his hotel. 
He will probably save money as last weeks takings were dreadful and most future bookings are cancelling.
He is not able to claim insurance because of Government's wording of statement.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2020)

So I have a go at my manager yest for letting in someone to the building he shouldn't 

Guess who went off yesterday self isolating 

Well done ..


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## IanM (Mar 17, 2020)

Government reviewing assistance so hope businesses like your sil get the help they need...

Winter Open (postponed from last month) goes ahead today at Royal Porthcawl..... clubhouse closed, meal cancelled, play, put card in and leave....  necessary precautions....


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest I have had 2 local restaurants comment on social media that global pandemic is not covered on their insurance and so a forced closure would not have allowed a claim
		
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We have business interruption cover but pandemics are not covered, we checked. Expect to see a good number of 'accidental ' fires in the coming weeks.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We have business interruption cover but pandemics are not covered, we checked. Expect to see a good number of 'accidental ' fires in the coming weeks.
		
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What are you suggesting?

🤔


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## SaintHacker (Mar 17, 2020)

I wanted to work from home but the mrs went mad when I tried to park a coach in the front room...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2020)

Had another word with head manager this time

Someone who is allowed in the building that's fine but just comes in the control room

I get we could get in anyways .. but he shouldn't be just walking in the room. Protect the room best we can

Words were had..he will now avoid the room

Good


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## Rlburnside (Mar 17, 2020)

Just seen Idris Elba on news, he has coronavirus and put on social media advising people to be careful. 
His wife/ partner/ daughter is standing at his shoulder 😲


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2020)

I liked the cartoon with the farmer, surrounded by his sheep, sitting in his lounge on the phone saying he has been forced to work from home.

Always the organiser Lady Doon has just booked her July hair appointment.
God knows what we will look like after no hairdresser for 3 months.


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2020)

IanM said:



			Government reviewing assistance so hope businesses like your sil get the help they need...
		
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If only there was some big rich institution that had billions lying around doing nothing who are supposed to help the needy could open their golden purse and actually help them.


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## Robster59 (Mar 17, 2020)

Well, that's my second customer cancelled so just having my breakfast and heading home. When I checked with them last night, it was still on but when he came in to work today they said they were not allowing visitors on site. I can't say I'm surprised and best thing for them to do.


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2020)

If your business is going under (as thousands now will) and your insured for fire but not a pandemic, a percentage will do the drastic, dangerous and illegal thing and torch it, happens in normal times, never mind a global economic meltdown. Afraid that's what happens when humans get really desperate.

To juxtapose that Insurance companies are experts at taking a high premium then weedling out of payouts via legal jargon and endless small print. Seen it time and again.

Imo there are not enough police or army to deal with widespread social breakdown here. 
Situation is really not good and govt knows it. How long before gangs start, then intimidation etc.

There will never be enough ventilators or hospital beds, people are being left on hospital floors before this even started.
Les hope they get a vaccine sorted for 7 billion people soon!

I'm not salaried any more, mrs has a retail business reliant on tourism which I'm helping with amongst trying to set up a small business myself and hers could be forced to close to public, I also have type 1 diabetes so should do the 12 week isolating thing, 2 kids, mortgage, limited savings. Getting more than worried now. 

To boot no Masters to watch next month.


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## Andy (Mar 17, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			If your business is going under (as thousands now will) and your insured for fire but not a pandemic, a percentage will do the drastic, dangerous and illegal thing and torch it, happens in normal times, never mind a global economic meltdown. Afraid that's what happens when humans get really desperate.

To juxtapose that Insurance companies are experts at taking a high premium then weedling out of payouts via legal jargon and endless small print. Seen it time and again.

Imo there are not enough police or army to deal with widespread social breakdown here. 
Situation is really not good and govt knows it. How long before gangs start, then intimidation etc.

There will never be enough ventilators or hospital beds, people are being left on hospital floors before this even started.
Les hope they get a vaccine sorted for 7 billion people soon!

I'm not salaried any more, mrs has a retail business reliant on tourism which I'm helping with amongst trying to set up a small business myself and hers could be forced to close to public, I also have type 1 diabetes so should do the 12 week isolating thing, 2 kids, mortgage, limited savings. Getting more than worried now. 

To boot no Masters to watch next month.

View attachment 29391

Click to expand...

It's not self isolating just yet, only social distancing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Given the briefing given by the scientists and modellers last night - and what i have heard from the group this morning on Today - then given more recent data from Italy in particular, the measures we had in place up to this coming weekend would quite likely be catastrophic in terms of deaths.  That’s why the more severe measures are coming in; schools to close on Friday? and the likelihood of lockdown to support the new measures. Because inconvenient as things seem today we cannot just continue with the current measures - and must adhere to the new restrictions; and as the strength of any security is its weakest link they will probably have to be enforced.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Not if the old self isolate as advised.

There could be a stark choice for grandparents.
Don't see grandkids for a few months and then see em for years.

Or see em for the next few months. Full stop.
		
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What about a parent in one of the other vulnerable groups, a pregnant mum or parent with underlying health conditions? If they are advised to self isolate what do they do about their kids? Do they keep them off school for the 12 weeks or continue to send them to school and keep their fingers crossed that they don't pick up the virus? Does their partner continue to go to work or do they also have to stay at home for 12 weeks?


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## Papas1982 (Mar 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about a parent in one of the other vulnerable groups, a pregnant mum or parent with underlying health conditions? If they are advised to self isolate what do they do about their kids? Do they keep them off school for the 12 weeks or continue to send them to school and keep their fingers crossed that they don't pick up the virus? Does their partner continue to go to work or do they also have to stay at home for 12 weeks?
		
Click to expand...

If you have no choice then obviously you will have to do what you can. My point was simply for those that have a choice. Make the right call or the consequences (that could be avoided) could be severe. 
If my missus gets it or vice versa then the other will take the time off as our daughter will need care. I think over time a lot of hard decisions will need to be taken.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given the briefing given by the scientists and modellers last night - and what i have heard from the group this morning on Today - then given more recent data from Italy in particular, the measures we had in place up to this coming weekend would quite likely be catastrophic in terms of deaths.  That’s why the more severe measures are coming in; schools to close on Friday? and the likelihood of lockdown to support the new measures. Because inconvenient as things seem today we cannot just continue with the current measures - and must adhere to the new restrictions; and as the strength of any security is its weakest link they will probably have to be enforced.
		
Click to expand...

No idea what "the group" is or where you are getting your information and yes it is a fluid situation and yes I do think there will be drastic changes in terms of all pubs, golf clubs and places where people gather closing but I haven't heard anything about schools (and HID works in one and they have a daily briefing) but I don't think we'll go into full lockdown yet as the peak still seems to be a couple of weeks behind Italy (although the gap does seem to be closing)


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## Slime (Mar 17, 2020)

Just seen an interview with two professors.
One says Boris is absolutely doing things correctly, the other says he's doing things absolutely incorrectly.
We just don't stand a chance!
We have to just do what we genuinely think is best and hope we're correct.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2020)

Saw this on Facebook this morning.....

It's important to stick to your normal routine when working from home.......


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## Dando (Mar 17, 2020)

we've been told we can work from home if we can but although I can, my security number generator doesn't work so I cant log in to my system and working from iPhone isn't really an option


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No idea what "the group" is or where you are getting your information and yes it is a fluid situation and yes I do think there will be drastic changes in terms of all pubs, golf clubs and places where people gather closing but I haven't heard anything about schools (and HID works in one and they have a daily briefing) but I don't think we'll go into full lockdown yet as the peak still seems to be a couple of weeks behind Italy (although the gap does seem to be closing)
		
Click to expand...

Tom Whipple of The Times


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1239619001522761728


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No idea what "the group" is or where you are getting your information and yes it is a fluid situation and yes I do think there will be drastic changes in terms of all pubs, golf clubs and places where people gather closing but* I haven't heard anything about schools (and HID works in one and they have a daily briefing)* but I don't think we'll go into full lockdown yet as the peak still seems to be a couple of weeks behind Italy (although the gap does seem to be closing)
		
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Come on Homer! Either you’re making things up or getting confused:

Below is what you posted in the lounge 5 minutes before posting the above!

Which is it? you haven’t heard anything or you have.

”The latest from the head teacher at the school HID works at is the government are trying to keep them open as long as possible to enable the exam mocks to go ahead as unhindered as possible and then close at Easter and stay shut after that.”


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## Reemul (Mar 17, 2020)

Here is an example of the problem we have.

My wife’s best friend sent here a long txt message last night saying the following. Her husband got made redundant last week and started his new job yesterday. She works at the hospital in a support role. Her eldest son who is 13 came home from school yesterday and has a temperature of 38.6. They also have a younger son aged 8.
They feel it’s not Covid-19, they are not staying home, the kid will stay home alone and the others will go to work / school as normal. They can’t afford the husband to lose his new job and she can’t afford to be away from the hospital and they have no one to look after the little one so he is off to school…

They know my wife has cavities in her lungs and is in the higher risk category but does this affect their thinking, nope we will carry on as normal and screw everyone else.

To add my wife is a teacher and yesterday they had twins at her school come back from a 2 week holiday in France want to come back to school and were very insistent, the school had to get public health involved to get them excluded for 2 weeks. Due to the high risk to my wife I think she is going to be sent home from Friday to work from home permanently which will be a relief.

Unfortunately you cannot ask people to do the right thing, you need to make them.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 17, 2020)

Joe Pike (Sky Political Commentator) reporting that BJ was on a call with business leaders last night, and joked the effort to build more ventilators should be called "Operation Last Gasp". Didn't go down well apparently.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Homer! Either you’re making things up or getting confused:

Below is what you posted in the lounge 5 minutes before posting the above!

Which is it? you haven’t heard anything or you have.

”The latest from the head teacher at the school HID works at is the government are trying to keep them open as long as possible to enable the exam mocks to go ahead as unhindered as possible and then close at Easter and stay shut after that.”
		
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My wife works in a school

Skeleton staff until they announce a closure possible Monday 

Schools are preparing


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2020)

Andy said:



			It's not self isolating just yet, only social distancing.
		
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Confusing, on Radio Scotland just now lots of q&a and anyone like me who qualifies for a flu vaccine annually but is in decent health otherwise is classed group 3 and should not be going to work and absolutely minimising social contact. Is that not as good as self isolating?
Interested if banks will allow a mortgage holiday.

At least we're getting into longer days and better weather so I can paint the house exterior or rebuild garden retaining walls etc.


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2020)

1 plus point - bog roll in Lidl this morning, managed to control myself and only bought 1 pack (9 rolls).


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2020)

My neighbour and his wife who are both 73 (she has an ongoing medical condition) have just gone to their weekly ten pin bowling


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## Jacko_G (Mar 17, 2020)

Best thing that could happen is the media start to report responsibly and stick to facts.


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## Reemul (Mar 17, 2020)

I work as an insurance broker, i am in High Net Worth but my office is the commercial team. 99% of businesses do not have business interruption for corona regardless of the government shutting you down. Most have named requirements and if the issue is not named specifically you aren't covered.

Insurance is not going to be a saver.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 17, 2020)

Seems to me, too many in the modern world want to be the first with every bit of news, whether it's real or not. Too many are selfsih and only consider their own wants and needs.
My wife is glued to farcebook and the news when at home, I ignore some of the news and almost everything on farcebook. 
It's a virus, a flu like virus. I will take the neccessary precautions accepting that I'm likely to have financial hardship soon as a result of it and also accepting that people generally want their stuff fixed regardless.
I accept some will suffer and die,  hopefully very few, hopefully through nothing I have done. However the constant "I heard this, I heard that" doesn't help anyone.
Lets be sensible and mindful that whilst there are some that want to be the first with this or that bit of news, true or untrue, there are lots more for whom the anxiety of the situation is probably doing more damage than the virus probably would were they to get it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



*No idea what "the group" is or where you are getting your information and yes it is a fluid *situation and yes I do think there will be drastic changes in terms of all pubs, golf clubs and places where people gather closing but I haven't heard anything about schools (and HID works in one and they have a daily briefing) but I don't think we'll go into full lockdown yet as the peak still seems to be a couple of weeks behind Italy (although the gap does seem to be closing)
		
Click to expand...

Read the headline on Sky news online where it talks about "mitigation" and "suppression "
It explains that the science advising the Government is at London  Imperial college, a Covid 19 group.
It seems to be a case of "you ain't seen nothing yet"
Hard times.


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## Kellfire (Mar 17, 2020)

People at work are self isolating (aka not working) despite fitting none on the criteria to do so, safe that they won’t have it recorded against them as sick. Here comes the increasing  selfish phase of coronavirus.


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## sussexhacker (Mar 17, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			People at work are self isolating (aka not working) despite fitting none on the criteria to do so, safe that they won’t have it recorded against them as sick. Here comes the increasing  selfish phase of coronavirus.
		
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That’s the problem I think we have at work they are not willing to give us any more than SSP so people are still here 

If there was some sort of extra to stay home everyone would be home


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 17, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Seems to me, too many in the modern world want to be the first with every bit of news, whether it's real or not. Too many are selfsih and only consider their own wants and needs.
My wife is glued to farcebook and the news when at home, I ignore some of the news and almost everything on farcebook.
It's a virus, a flu like virus. I will take the neccessary precautions accepting that I'm likely to have financial hardship soon as a result of it and also accepting that people generally want their stuff fixed regardless.
I accept some will suffer and die,  hopefully very few, hopefully through nothing I have done. However the constant "I heard this, I heard that" doesn't help anyone.
Lets be sensible and mindful that whilst there are some that want to be the first with this or that bit of news, true or untrue, there are lots more for whom the anxiety of the situation is probably doing more damage than the virus probably would were they to get it.


Click to expand...

 I sympathise a lot with your viewpoint, but we need to accept that there will be measures required which were never contemplated in peacetime.
So it seems, anyway.
What I would like to see is a proper reporting and emphasis on the figures.
To say there have been say 50 deaths from 500 confirmed cases is irresponsible. We should be told that there were 50 deaths from an estimated,( and it can be estimated reasonably accurately, i should think) number of persons likely infected.
The percentages would be markedly different , more accurate of the situation ,
 and certainly more reassuring.


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## User62651 (Mar 17, 2020)

Still keen to go to the gym and pool, went yesterday and it was about normal for numbers in gym, pool was v quiet. They had one staffer wiping down machines all the time and lots of spays and wipes for us too, they have strong constant ventilating on. There are only 2 reported cov19 cases in my health authority area (highland) so far so my reasoning is keep going whilst watching infection numbers in my area. Is that foolhardy?

Fact my 2 kids are mixing with hundreds of people at school then returning home makes a bit of a mockery of anything I do doesn't it?


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## hovis (Mar 17, 2020)

in the fire service we've just been forbidden to mix with other crews. whether that's change of shift or following an incident.  Next stage is to keep the whole crew apart during a shift and only come together when we have to get on the appliance


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2020)

Our room has been asked to say which shifts over next 4 weeks we can be available for if anyone goes sick

An Emergancy overtime roster . Called on the day and asked to come in if someone blows out


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## Orikoru (Mar 17, 2020)

Finally been told this morning that I will be able to work from home from now until god knows when. I am happy that I won't be travelling on the tube for an hour each way mainly. Although sitting at home every day will be weird.


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## Dando (Mar 17, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I work as an insurance broker, i am in High Net Worth but my office is the commercial team. 99% of businesses do not have business interruption for corona regardless of the government shutting you down. Most have named requirements and if the issue is not named specifically you aren't covered.

Insurance is not going to be a saver.
		
Click to expand...

same here, but I am in Professional Indemnity with the odd office policy thrown in.

our commercial team have been inundated with queries and there are 4 guys who specialise in insuring restaurants and pubs and their phones haven't stopped ringing


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## Andy (Mar 17, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Confusing, on Radio Scotland just now lots of q&a and anyone like me who qualifies for a flu vaccine annually but is in decent health otherwise is classed group 3 and should not be going to work and absolutely minimising social contact. Is that not as good as self isolating?
Interested if banks will allow a mortgage holiday.

At least we're getting into longer days and better weather so I can paint the house exterior or rebuild garden retaining walls etc.
		
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Tell me about it, I'm type 1 also. Absolute pain in the ring piece.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Finally been told this morning that I will be able to work from home from now until god knows when. I am happy that I won't be travelling on the tube for an hour each way mainly. *Although sitting at home every day will be weird*.
		
Click to expand...

Welcome to my world, you'll get used to it


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			My neighbour and his wife who are both 73 (she has an ongoing medical condition) have just gone to their weekly ten pin bowling 

Click to expand...

Rang my parents who are well into their 70s last light to check how they were getting on based on the news.  Asked my dad to put my mum on and he said '_oh she's gone down the line dancing with her friends_'.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2020)

Just seen a vid on FB. Young woman swimming in a hotel pool. Lockdown here means your hotel room and the dining room, at least 2m from the nearest diner. Police turn up and tell her to get out of the pool. She ignores them and swims around the centre of the pool. Ignoring the Police in Spain is just plain stupid, even on a good day.

One Policeman strips down to his jockies and goes in after her. Hauled out, face down and handcuffed. Then taken away. The fine for walking on the prom is €600, and zero tolerance came in yesterday. Wonder what she'll get? 

There are 4 different levels of fines for ignoring the lockdown + a year in jail. The top fine, probably reserved for serious breaches at a corporate level is €600,000.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Still keen to go to the gym and pool, went yesterday and it was about normal for numbers in gym, pool was v quiet. They had one staffer wiping down machines all the time and lots of spays and wipes for us too, they have strong constant ventilating on. There are only 2 reported cov19 cases in my health authority area (highland) so far so my reasoning is keep going whilst watching infection numbers in my area. Is that foolhardy?

*Fact my 2 kids are mixing with hundreds of people at school then returning home makes a bit of a mockery of anything I do doesn't it*?
		
Click to expand...

Not really as if everyone took that attitude then the virus would spread a whole lot quicker than if not. We can't stop the virus but a decision has been made that for the time being schools are still open, doesn't mean the rest of us should ignore the advice.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2020)

I was supposed to do some training in a school today and not surprisingly it's been cancelled. Exams Officer must be wondering what next and how they'll cope. I'm not "vulnerable" so have offered to go in at short notice if needed. There are a few live exams imminent but think it unlikely they'll go ahead.

Nephew's girlfriend is a nurse working with the elderly. He allegedly is having to self-isolate for a week and admits she's jumped on the bandwagon to get a week off paid...to say I'm livid is an understatement...selfish gits.


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## hovis (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just seen a vid on FB. Young woman swimming in a hotel pool. Lockdown here means your hotel room and the dining room, at least 2m from the nearest diner. Police turn up and tell her to get out of the pool. She ignores them and swims around the centre of the pool. Ignoring the Police in Spain is just plain stupid, even on a good day.

One Policeman strips down to his jockies and goes in after her. Hauled out, face down and handcuffed. Then taken away. The fine for walking on the prom is €600, and zero tolerance came in yesterday. Wonder what she'll get?

There are 4 different levels of fines for ignoring the lockdown + a year in jail. The top fine, probably reserved for serious breaches at a corporate level is €600,000.
		
Click to expand...

never mess with the Spanish "powlice“


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Seems to me, too many in the modern world want to be the first with every bit of news, whether it's real or not. Too many are selfsih and only consider their own wants and needs.
My wife is glued to farcebook and the news when at home, I ignore some of the news and almost everything on farcebook.
It's a virus, a flu like virus. I will take the neccessary precautions accepting that I'm likely to have financial hardship soon as a result of it and also accepting that people generally want their stuff fixed regardless.
I accept some will suffer and die,  hopefully very few, hopefully through nothing I have done. However the constant "I heard this, I heard that" doesn't help anyone.
Lets be sensible and mindful that whilst there are some that want to be the first with this or that bit of news, true or untrue, there are lots more for whom the anxiety of the situation is probably doing more damage than the virus probably would were they to get it.


Click to expand...

I'm ignoring Facebook other than watching for posts coming from our friends in Seattle, she is Editor-in-Chief of all PSB stations in Washington, Oregon, Idaho and - I  think - Montana.  He is the senior neo-natal surgeon at a major hospital in Seattle.  They know what is happening in the states and it is scary.  His hospital's intensive care beds were full two weeks ago - and many deaths in that state have been in his hospital.

She has had to be very careful over the last few months about how she has allowed the developing crisis in the US and Trump's response to it to be reported - because if reporting was critical then Trump and his henchmen would have come down on her and her stations like a ton of bricks - so she doesn't post any _opinion _on Trump on Facebook - with much of what she posts for us to read being by PM.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife works in a school

Skeleton staff until they announce a closure possible Monday

Schools are preparing
		
Click to expand...

Is there actually a school policy?
Or is it up to the head teacher?
My wife and daughter both work in different schools and they are being told different things.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not really as if everyone took that attitude then the virus would spread a whole lot quicker than if not. We can't stop the virus but a decision has been made that for the time being schools are still open, doesn't mean the rest of us should ignore the advice.
		
Click to expand...

If there is someone vulnerable in the house of the child then that individual should be self-isolating in any case.  

If the child contracts the virus at school then it will become apparent within a week and at that point everyone in the house self-isolates - whether they have already caught it from the child or not (and wouldn't know)

If the child's symptoms develop to be more serious and likely cv, then NHS111 contacted and the child will be tested for cv and treated accordingly. I am not sure if the rest of the household are tested for cv at the same time as the child, or whether that testing is delayed until or if symptoms become apparent in the wider household.  

Well I think the timing of the testing bit is what happens - but to be honest I am not sure.  Very difficult.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 17, 2020)

UHI are cancelling all face to face lectures and classes from Friday. My lad is coming back from Dornoch tomorrow, as most of his assignments her are online and can be done here. Can't get all his gear back on the flight tomorrow, so will still have to go up in May, assuming travel is still OK then. Not sure what will happen if we can't empty his flat then, because that's when his tenancy agreement is up with the Uni residence. It's not run by the Uni though, so waiting to hear on that.

With mrs wedge being a nurse at the local hospital, albeit in the Breast Cancer clinic and not on the wards, he's coming back to a high risk environment, might be better staying in the highlands.


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## Andy (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just seen a vid on FB. Young woman swimming in a hotel pool. Lockdown here means your hotel room and the dining room, at least 2m from the nearest diner. Police turn up and tell her to get out of the pool. She ignores them and swims around the centre of the pool. Ignoring the Police in Spain is just plain stupid, even on a good day.

One Policeman strips down to his jockies and goes in after her. Hauled out, face down and handcuffed. Then taken away. The fine for walking on the prom is €600, and zero tolerance came in yesterday. Wonder what she'll get? 

There are 4 different levels of fines for ignoring the lockdown + a year in jail. The top fine, probably reserved for serious breaches at a corporate level is €600,000.
		
Click to expand...

Seen that too, stupid bint. She didn't like getting stacked to the rear, moaning about her arm hurting.


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## Wolf (Mar 17, 2020)

You know it's serious when ISIS are telling people not to travel to Europe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Rang my parents who are well into their 70s last light to check how they were getting on based on the news.  Asked my dad to put my mum on and he said '_oh she's gone down the line dancing with her friends_'. 

Click to expand...

My 90yr old MiL and her 90yr old pal were due to go to a local small theatre for a play last night.  Her pal was still thinking of going as she didn't want to have wasted the cost of the ticket.  £6!...

My MiL didn't go.  I don't know if her friend went.  That's oldies looking after the pennies.  When you were brought up without very much at all - you will never be happy wasting it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Not surprisingly the BC Charity Helpline that my wife works on is swamped this morning, and she and most of the nurse specialists in work today are manning the phones all day - normally they split between phones and Email inquiry support.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Is there actually a school policy?
Or is it up to the head teacher?
My wife and daughter both work in different schools and they are being told different things.
		
Click to expand...

My wife works in an independent school and its staying open on the say so of the head teacher who is taking advice from local education authority who in turn I guess are getting their information from official government sources. With mocks going on/coming up, her plan is to stay open as long as permitted and let the children do those and business as usual for the other kids


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## robinthehood (Mar 17, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Finally been told this morning that I will be able to work from home from now until god knows when. I am happy that I won't be travelling on the tube for an hour each way mainly. Although sitting at home every day will be weird.
		
Click to expand...

Same here , although with the longer days I'll be able to hit the course for 430 and get  9 holes in.


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## Orikoru (Mar 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Same here , although with the longer days I'll be able to hit the course for 430 and get  9 holes in.
		
Click to expand...

Haha, good thinking there. I'll be so bored I may have to do the same. Stringing out your work in the office is easy enough but doing it from home when no one can see you anyway is something else.


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## JollyRedDevil (Mar 17, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Haha, good thinking there. I'll be so bored I may have to do the same. Stringing out your work in the office is easy enough but doing it from home when no one can see you anyway is something else. 

Click to expand...

Same here. WFH for the foreseeable future but I core hours are 8:00-16:00. I can be on the course by 16:15


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## drdel (Mar 17, 2020)

Just got in from a walk taking us past a small local shopping centre. The small Cafe has condensation running down their windows yet it is stacked full with mostly young mums 'socialising' - at 4 to a table no way are they 'distancing'...


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## Reemul (Mar 17, 2020)

My wife is a teacher and falls in to the at risk category, her school will not shut until the government allows it, she has been told to work from home from next week due to her condition but with 2 boys I am not sure how with them going to school she will be much safer.


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## Russ_D (Mar 17, 2020)

We are still open where I work, starting to make us all sit 2m apart (bit late i think) and for those who can work from home to do so to make the social distancing possible. Things might changes as we are a German owned company and all our stock comes from there. As they are shutting down borders in Europe it means we may not be able to get stock if they go down the route of essential items only.
Wifes school still open but they seem to be getting ready with virtual learning etc.


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## Slab (Mar 17, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I work as an insurance broker, i am in High Net Worth but my office is the commercial team. 99% of businesses do not have business interruption for corona regardless of the government shutting you down. Most have named requirements and if the issue is not named specifically you aren't covered.

Insurance is not going to be a saver.
		
Click to expand...




Bunkermagnet said:



			Seems to me, too many in the modern world want to be the first with every bit of news, whether it's real or not. Too many are selfsih and only consider their own wants and needs.
My wife is glued to farcebook and the news when at home, I ignore some of the news and almost everything on farcebook.
It's a virus, a flu like virus. I will take the neccessary precautions accepting that I'm likely to have financial hardship soon as a result of it and also accepting that people generally want their stuff fixed regardless.
I accept some will suffer and die,  hopefully very few, hopefully through nothing I have done. However the constant "I heard this, I heard that" doesn't help anyone.
Lets be sensible and mindful that whilst there are some that want to be the first with this or that bit of news, true or untrue, there are lots more for whom the anxiety of the situation is probably doing more damage than the virus probably would were they to get it.


Click to expand...

Yes i rather suspect this virus (serious as it is) is 43% more serious when you catch it online (as many seem to have done)


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## Mudball (Mar 17, 2020)

Had to sit thru a training session on 'How to use Microsoft Teams for Meetings'...  its irrelvant that i have been using it for about a year or so...


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2020)

Reemul said:



			My wife is a teacher and falls in to the at risk category, her school will not shut until the government allows it, she has been told to work from home from next week due to her condition but with 2 boys I am not sure how with them going to school she will be much safer.
		
Click to expand...

I've just had an email from my boys' school that has said that they will authorise all absences for up to 14 days for those who are self isolating. Additionally they will authorise absences of up to 12 weeks for children of parents who are in the at risk categories, which is likely that we will have to do. Assuming they finish on Friday this week they will be going back to school on June 8th at the earliest. It's a shame that I'm not at home at the minute as I would love to see the look on their faces when I tell them that they're getting 12 weeks off school. And equally the look on their faces when I told them that it wouldn't be a holiday and that they'd still have to do school work while they're at home.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2020)

Next door neighbour has a 6 year old with earache. He also has a temperature so the doc won't see him and they've been told to self-isolate. Off to Tesco later to get them some provisions - assuming Tesco have any!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I work as an insurance broker, i am in High Net Worth but my office is the commercial team. 99% of businesses do not have business interruption for corona regardless of the government shutting you down. Most have named requirements and if the issue is not named specifically you aren't covered.

Insurance is not going to be a saver.
		
Click to expand...

Heard a caller tell LBC phone-in that he is just off a call with his insurer.  He has £100,000 pandemic cover.  The insurer pointed to a list of 'diseases/conditions' covered.  Guess what.  Covid-19 is not on the list - well it wouldn't be would it!  So he's not covered.  The statement made an hour or so ago looks to be directed at the government - telling the government that the insurance policies of most, if not all, businesses will not cover closure by government mandate - even if pandemic cover is included...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			What are you suggesting?

🤔
		
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Pretty obvious really. Lots of business are going to go down during this, plenty in the hospitality sector in particular. People's life savings, their lifes work may be piled into their business and the difference between economic survival and losing everything, business, house etc is an insurance claim. Desperate people do desperate things.

For my own part, my company has money put to one side to see us through a certain period of time. If business became catastrophic we would close before that reserve was all used up and use that to live on, pay bills etc. We would not go down an illegal path, nor am I encouraging anyone to do so. I am simply pointing it out as an almost inevitable consequence of what is happening.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

I do have concerns for the possible millions of people who will now find themselves unemployed with no income. I can only assume they will be claiming benefits and the way the system will be bogged down processing claims.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Just got added to a WhatsAppp group set up by a neighbour for the residents in our road - so we can support each other - especially those elderly and vulnerable neighbours who will find themselves isolating from today or this weekend. But it's for us all #comingtogether


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## Jacko_G (Mar 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Pretty obvious really. Lots of business are going to go down during this, plenty in the hospitality sector in particular. People's life savings, their lifes work may be piled into their business and the difference between economic survival and losing everything, business, house etc is an insurance claim. Desperate people do desperate things.

For my own part, my company has money put to one side to see us through a certain period of time. If business became catastrophic we would close before that reserve was all used up and use that to live on, pay bills etc. We would not go down an illegal path, nor am I encouraging anyone to do so. I am simply pointing it out as an almost inevitable consequence of what is happening.
		
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As Fragger said yesterday sarcasm doesn't write well!

👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I do have concerns for the possible millions of people who will now find themselves unemployed with no income. I can only assume they will be claiming benefits and the way the system will be bogged down processing claims.
		
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There are all of those - plus all the self-employed who have been advised to register for UC just in case their work dries up.  

When my son and his partner went for their interviews last week he was told that the DWP UC was already bending seriously under the strain.  Apparently now no interview will be required - however the reason given for my son having to have an interview was because the system couldn't validate his identification documents.  He has to somehow now get back to them to tell them that his income has collapsed to zero.  At the time of the interview he did at least have some.   

And so yes - the UC system may well grind to a crawl...or there will be a long wait to get UC money through.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			As Fragger said yesterday sarcasm doesn't write well!

👍
		
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A bit like Johnson yesterday when talking with potential manufacturers of ventilators referring to it as Operation Last Gasp...

Apparently laughter was in short supply...when things are very grim definitely best to avoid jokes or sarcasm...even when trying to lighten the mood.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			As Fragger said yesterday sarcasm doesn't write well!

👍
		
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It wasn't sarcasm. I think it will be a sad reality of the coming weeks and months.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2020)

Spain has followed Italy. All mortgage repayments are frozen. No interest to be added.

A government that puts people before big business?

Edit; several private landlords have just posted on FB, no rent payments required whilst they don't have to pay mortgages on their properties.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It wasn't sarcasm. I think it will be a sad reality of the coming weeks and months.
		
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I was referring to my initial reply to your post!

🙈


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I was referring to my initial reply to your post!

🙈
		
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Ah, sorry. Yeah, Fragger had a point then


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just got added to a WhatsAppp group set up by a neighbour for the residents in our road - so we can support each other - especially those elderly and vulnerable neighbours who will find themselves isolating from today or this weekend. But it's for us all #comingtogether
		
Click to expand...

The church group in our village set something similar up for the whole village at the weekend. It is heart-warming to see how many signed up to help and I think they were really surprised. Leaflets to all houses with those over 70 delivered yesterday and a similar delivery in the village newsletter next week. A nice tonic to counter the selfish me me me attitude of panic-buying etc.


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## Wolf (Mar 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I do have concerns for the possible millions of people who will now find themselves unemployed with no income. I can only assume they will be claiming benefits and the way the system will be bogged down processing claims.
		
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I think that's an extremely valid concern, considering the Universal Credit system takes 5 weeks to get people their first payment andnthe interim period requires a minimum of 2 x face to face meetings for I. D to set up claim and a follow on work set up meeting, the system simply is not going to cope with the huge influx of claims and with social distancing being required is going to mean changes to the current processes. 

I'm in a strange predicament myself my contracts run out in 2 weeks which is fine as that was the plan as I'm going back to fully employed but within a role for the M.O.D which is due to start in 2 weeks. However if we go lock down im in the limbo of no longer being self employed but in employment that I may not be able to start. Fortunately the benefit if being self employed i have put some away and can survive but there's going ot be many others like me starting or due to start new jobs that won't end up going ahead, they're going to be stuck for help. I believe Boris is doing the right thing but ultimately this will devistate a lot of households.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain has followed Italy. All mortgage repayments are frozen. No interest to be added.

A government that puts people before big business?
		
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I was talking to my wife this morning about this being a very good step to take. Let's face it UK banks owe the public after being bailed out after the crash, this is moral payback time. This would remove a huge pressure from people.


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## DRW (Mar 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A bit like Johnson yesterday when talking with potential manufacturers of ventilators referring to it as Operation Last Gasp...

Apparently laughter was in short supply...when things are very grim definitely best to avoid jokes or sarcasm...even when trying to lighten the mood.
		
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I was always brought up with you need to laugh when times are grim and there is laughter/humour in everything. Helps to relax and release tense moments.

So tend to laugh when things are bad. However on a forum or with people you don't really know, it doesn't work.

Things are mentally quiet out there with very few new enquires for most business areas I see. Many are going to go bust.

I hope the government will step in and order a 'freeze period' or in due course will almost need to do a money printing exercise and 'mail shot the money' to business & individuals as we come out of this, in x months time., to kick start the economy


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## User20204 (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain has followed Italy. All mortgage repayments are frozen. No interest to be added.

A government that puts people before big business?

Edit; several private landlords have just posted on FB, no rent payments required whilst they don't have to pay mortgages on their properties.
		
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Which is all fine and well but my mortgage is paid off but I do have two separate loans, what happens with them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Euro2020 postponed for a year - according to Norwegian FA.  UEFA press conf this afternoon,


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## USER1999 (Mar 17, 2020)

Pets at home is out of the cat food I normally buy. I will try another shop tonight on my way home. Can't have hungry mogs, and I don't want to feed them with rubbish from Whiskas and such.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Which is all fine and well but my mortgage is paid off but I do have two separate loans, what happens with them.
		
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You tell me...


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## spongebob59 (Mar 17, 2020)

The french have just announced that Ibuprofen can exaberate the symptons and to only take paracetamol, so to all those who haev stock piled Iborofen


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			The french have just announced that Ibuprofen can exaberate the symptons and to only take paracetamol, so to all those who haev stock piled Iborofen 

Click to expand...

I was told something similar yesterday and also told that gargling with warm salt water or vinegar can have a positive effect on the virus in the back of the throat area before it has a chance to progress further into the respiratory tract


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## GB72 (Mar 17, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Pets at home is out of the cat food I normally buy. I will try another shop tonight on my way home. Can't have hungry mogs, and I don't want to feed them with rubbish from Whiskas and such.
		
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Was talking about this the other day. Food aisles cleared out in local asda but pet food hardly touched. Are people not thinking about their pets when stockpiling for months indoors.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Pets at home is out of the cat food I normally buy. I will try another shop tonight on my way home. Can't have hungry mogs, and I don't want to feed them with rubbish from Whiskas and such.
		
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We always buy in bulk with 30kgs at a time (2 Labradors after all!) and recently changed their food. It didn't suit Daisy so we ordered something different for her which was fine so ordered some more. Our spare room resembles a pet shop but as it turns out it may not be a bad thing!


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2020)

Hahahahahahahahaha…. you just wouldn't believe it..... hahahahahaha

A guy has just been stopped for walking a stuffed dog. It is permitted to go out to walk your dog. Wonder if he'll enjoy his €600 fine as much as his walk.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I was told something similar yesterday and also told that gargling with warm salt water or vinegar can have a positive effect on the virus in the back of the throat area before it has a chance to progress further into the respiratory tract
		
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Can you explain a positive effect on the virus , should we gargle with warm salt water or not ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 17, 2020)

Just visualised that stiff lead and empty collar jokey thing of a few years ago.
'What, you can't see my dog'

On another tac
Residents in my mothers new care home not allowed visitors and confined  to rooms.
She is OK with it but the dementia patients being allowed to roam at will are really piddling her off.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I was told something similar yesterday and also told that gargling with warm salt water or vinegar can have a positive effect on the virus in the back of the throat area before it has a chance to progress further into the respiratory tract
		
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Stop! You work in the NHS for godsake!

https://fullfact.org/health/gargle-salt-vinegar-water-coronavirus/


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## hovis (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahahahahahaha…. you just wouldn't believe it..... hahahahahaha

A guy has just been stopped for walking a stuffed dog. It is permitted to go out to walk your dog. Wonder if he'll enjoy his €600 fine as much as his walk.
		
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that's hilarious


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## FAB90 (Mar 17, 2020)

Just had to pick my daughter up from school with a temperature and shortness of breath. called the GP as advised by  NHS 24 and been told because she doesn't have a persistent cough we have to wait 24 hours and see if she has anymore symptoms before self isolating. Also been told they won't be doing any more tests unless in the high risk category


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain has followed Italy. All mortgage repayments are frozen. No interest to be added.

A government that puts people before big business?

Edit; several private landlords have just posted on FB, no rent payments required whilst they don't have to pay mortgages on their properties.
		
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All utility bills deferred till the lockdown is lifted. No one to be cut off for non-payment due to loss of employment.

A government that puts people before big business?


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## Russ_D (Mar 17, 2020)

Starting to get a little more anxious about it all now. Government advice is for those with underlying health issues so self isolate. Looking at their list it states, amongst others, High Blood pressure and Kidney problems. 
I have both high blood pressure and Beurgers disease (form of kidney disease) so i'm apparently in the "high" risk catagory. 

Problem is my company is not paying if you have to self isolate, only if they have to close the business. Puts me in a bit of a predicamant.


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## Crazyface (Mar 17, 2020)

Ryanir still not cancelling my flights. El via a Portugal........la la la la la  How stupid is all this travel crao. I'm very disappointed with the Gov. They are ADVISING against foreign travel. Well that's no good. If Ryanair fly, so do we. As we will not get our money back. It's a bludy joke.


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## Hobbit (Mar 17, 2020)

Santander bank(Spain) are offering up to €500,000 business loan at 1.49% for any registered business customer that struggles with cash flow during the lockdown. Deferred payment till an agreed date after the lockdown ends. 4 years to repay.


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## Crazyface (Mar 17, 2020)

Loads of 70+ out on the course where I was this morning. You can rest assured most of these lads and lasses WILL be out on the course during all this


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Hahahahahahahahaha…. you just wouldn't believe it..... hahahahahaha

A guy has just been stopped for walking a stuffed dog. It is permitted to go out to walk your dog. Wonder if he'll enjoy his €600 fine as much as his walk.
		
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Probably better to just have a lead and if  challenged ask if anyone has seen a runaway cocker spaniel.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Loads of 70+ out on the course where I was this morning. You can rest assured most of these lads and lasses WILL be out on the course during all this
		
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Maybe the greenkeeps should be issued with tazers or tranquiliser darts.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Ryanir still not cancelling my flights. El via a Portugal........la la la la la  How stupid is all this travel crao. I'm very disappointed with the Gov. They are ADVISING against foreign travel. Well that's no good. If Ryanair fly, so do we. As we will not get our money back. It's a bludy joke.
		
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Martin Lewis posted on Twitter earlier that the government advising all but essential travel was the trigger for most insurance policies to pay out.


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## Crazyface (Mar 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe the greenkeeps should be issued with tazers or tranquiliser darts.
		
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Nah, they didn't hold us up. All good. Did tell a few off in the pro shop. "you should be indoors shouldn't you?" I can't repeat on here what they said "off" was use a few times though.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 17, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Ryanir still not cancelling my flights. El via a Portugal........la la la la la  How stupid is all this travel crao. I'm very disappointed with the Gov. They are ADVISING against foreign travel. Well that's no good. If Ryanair fly, so do we. As we will not get our money back. It's a bludy joke.
		
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One of the worst companies ever. Anything to avoid having to refund customers.


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## DRW (Mar 17, 2020)

If anyone is interested, this is an interesting read about bats and virus :-

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...wn-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

EDIT :-




			Given that the virus seems fairly stable and that many infected individuals appear to have mild symptoms, scientists suspect the pathogen might have been around for weeks or even months before the first severe cases raised alarm. “There might have been mini outbreaks, but the virus burned out” before causing havoc, Baric says. “The Wuhan outbreak is by no means incidental.” In other words, there was an element of inevitability to it.
		
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## Slab (Mar 17, 2020)

My wife has been told to work from home because i returned from a risk country last night (UK)


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## spongebob59 (Mar 17, 2020)

All the local OAPs where at the usual meeting place for their walk this morning, hasnt deterred them at all


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2020)

This is from the BBC News live updates (my bold).....

"The UK government's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance is appearing at the House of Common's health committee.

He tells MPs that the UK should start to see rates of infection come down in two to three weeks.

He says it would be *"a good outcome"* if the number of *coronavirus-related deaths in the UK can be kept to below 20,000*."


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Ryanir still not cancelling my flights. El via a Portugal........la la la la la  How stupid is all this travel crao. I'm very disappointed with the Gov. They are ADVISING against foreign travel. Well that's no good. If Ryanair fly, so do we. As we will not get our money back. It's a bludy joke.
		
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You probably should be as disappointed, although not entirely surprised, with Ryanair.


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## sunshine (Mar 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just seen a vid on FB. Young woman swimming in a hotel pool. Lockdown here means your hotel room and the dining room, at least 2m from the nearest diner. Police turn up and tell her to get out of the pool. She ignores them and swims around the centre of the pool. Ignoring the Police in Spain is just plain stupid, even on a good day.

One Policeman strips down to his jockies and goes in after her. Hauled out, face down and handcuffed. Then taken away. The fine for walking on the prom is €600, and zero tolerance came in yesterday. Wonder what she'll get?

There are 4 different levels of fines for ignoring the lockdown + a year in jail. The top fine, probably reserved for serious breaches at a corporate level is €600,000.
		
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Just seen the video too.

Surprise surprise the woman is British. You can always rely on a Brit to embarrass themselves on holiday.


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## drdel (Mar 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is from the BBC News live updates (my bold).....

"The UK government's chief scientific adviser Sir Patrick Vallance is appearing at the House of Common's health committee.

He tells MPs that the UK should start to see rates of infection come down in two to three weeks.

He says it would be *"a good outcome"* if the number of *coronavirus-related deaths in the UK can be kept to below 20,000*."
		
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Unfortunately its human nature to believe '..it won't happen to me...' Until the numbers rise and an acquaintance dies and it brings it home there will always be the stubborn gits who think they know better than the medics. It is the nature of virus infections that the situation will get significantly worse before it improves. Do what you can to keep yourself safe.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Just seen the video too.

Surprise surprise the woman is British. You can always rely on a Brit to embarrass themselves on holiday.
		
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My mate seen it live, he's stuck in the same hotel.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The church group in our village set something similar up for the whole village at the weekend. It is heart-warming to see how many signed up to help and I think they were really surprised. Leaflets to all houses with those over 70 delivered yesterday and a similar delivery in the village newsletter next week. A nice tonic to counter the selfish me me me attitude of panic-buying etc.
		
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Our church is setting up same...though we might have to buy some members of the congregation a phone that can run WhatsApp (and they aren't all the most elderly  )


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## Andy (Mar 17, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Starting to get a little more anxious about it all now. Government advice is for those with underlying health issues so self isolate. Looking at their list it states, amongst others, High Blood pressure and Kidney problems. 
I have both high blood pressure and Beurgers disease (form of kidney disease) so i'm apparently in the "high" risk catagory. 

Problem is my company is not paying if you have to self isolate, only if they have to close the business. Puts me in a bit of a predicamant.
		
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They will have to pay SSP surely?


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## Orikoru (Mar 17, 2020)

There's a new pub near me that had their opening night pencilled in for tonight for weeks (I'm guessing it's an Irish bar hence opening on Paddy's Day). How's your luck? Feel sorry for them and the amount of money they must have invested to get a new pub up and running, and they'll see basically none of it back. Some will go for a drink in the short term I'm sure but we can't be far off all pubs being closed.


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## Russ_D (Mar 17, 2020)

Andy said:



			They will have to pay SSP surely?
		
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Yep, but £94 a week or so is a massive step down. Having got more advice on my condition i think I may be able to hold out longer as my kidney function isn't too low as to cause imediate concern. Just got to keep my blood pressure below 140 and self isolate if I start to notice any changes.


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## Andy (Mar 17, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Yep, but £94 a week or so is a massive step down. Having got more advice on my condition i think I may be able to hold out longer as my kidney function isn't too low as to cause imediate concern. Just got to keep my blood pressure below 140 and self isolate if I start to notice any changes.
		
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Ye, as much as its a boot in the baws to most working folk I doubt most employers will pay full wages.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 17, 2020)

Although we've been lumbered with my boomerang boy working from home😞... All of his oppo's work on site's well away from their residences and stay in hotels often sleeping in the daytime as site access is usually overnight... If restaurants have to shut gonna be a problem for them to get fed... Bad enough working away from home, for long periods, and having to survive on KFC/MacD's...


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## Orikoru (Mar 17, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			One of the worst companies ever. Anything to avoid having to refund customers.
		
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My flight with Ryanair is cancelled, and they've said we can have a refund no trouble. Only, when I click on 'get refund' on their website it just redirects to their homepage. When you enter live chat support, it just tells you you're in a queue - three hours I had with no response from the other end. Try and phone them - 'Network busy'. This could be interesting.

My wife reckons I can just ring my bank, since I paid on credit card, and get them to get my money back. Wondering if that would be best course of action?


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## Imurg (Mar 17, 2020)

Slight panic stations when The Boy came home this afternoon...not feeling good, a bit hot ........
Got the thermometer out....barely reached 36°
Phew..!
Will be keeping an eye on him though.....


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## Crazyface (Mar 17, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			My flight with Ryanair is cancelled, and they've said we can have a refund no trouble. Only, when I click on 'get refund' on their website it just redirects to their homepage. When you enter live chat support, it just tells you you're in a queue - three hours I had with no response from the other end. Try and phone them - 'Network busy'. This could be interesting.

My wife reckons I can just ring my bank, since I paid on credit card, and get them to get my money back. Wondering if that would be best course of action?
		
Click to expand...

Website will be overloaded with refund claims. Don't worry you'll get your money. Where were you going? It seems flights to Portugal are still on.


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## Orikoru (Mar 17, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Website will be overloaded with refund claims. Don't worry you'll get your money. Where were you going? It seems flights to Portugal are still on.
		
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Bratislava on the 27th. Return flights were with Wizz Air, and I've just gone through their process of obtaining a refund. They said it may take over 60 days to get it but at least the process on their website appeared to work.


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## Mudball (Mar 17, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Just seen the video too.

Surprise surprise the woman is British. *You can always rely on a Brit to embarrass themselves on holiday.*

Click to expand...

We are doing ouselves proud in India.  Tested positive and then try to escape on a plane.  Apparently got dragged off, arrested and quarantined.   I am sure, the muppets will be asking the FCO to spend tax payers money to 'rescue them'
https://www.gulftoday.ae/news/2020/...navirus-dubai-bound-flight-offloaded-in-kochi


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## Mudball (Mar 17, 2020)

There is a news article about some Singaporean minister saying that the UK is not doing enough and should close schools.  Was speaking to friends in India who asked me why UK is not closing. So sent them the regular BBC stuff around kids not being vulnerable, parents as key workers or spreading to their fragile grand parents.   

Equally, I mentioned that child poverty means many kids get only 1 meal at school. By closing schools they are increasing the risk to kids even more. These children unfortunately also belong to parents who may have a steady job and are most likely to be impacted by small business shutting down.  So school closure is not just a medical condition.

Friends could not believe that a 'Western country' like UK has child poverty.  So had to go and dig out some stats.   Can I say some of these are absolutely shocking.  As a society we are failing our kids.  

https://www.theguardian.com/society...rty-above-50-per-cent-in-10-uk-constituencies 

https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-figures


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			We are doing ouselves proud in India.  Tested positive and then try to escape on a plane.  Apparently got dragged off, arrested and quarantined.   I am sure, the muppets will be asking the FCO to spend tax payers money to 'rescue them'
https://www.gulftoday.ae/news/2020/...navirus-dubai-bound-flight-offloaded-in-kochi

Click to expand...

Not only him, but every other passenger on the plane offloaded to hospitals according to the article.

Will he technically have died from coronavirus if the other passengers kick the living  out of him, as I'm some will feel like doing?


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## hovis (Mar 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			And if you're the owner of that business who is unable to claim insurance for business disruption because Boris hasn't ordered you to close but has told your customers not to visit?
		
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bar owners on sky news just said that insurance doesn't cover force closure by the government anyway


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## Slime (Mar 17, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not only him, but every other passenger on the plane offloaded to hospitals according to the article.

Will he technically have died from coronavirus if the other passengers kick the living  out of him, as I'm some will feel like doing?
		
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Or, if any of the passengers die due to contracting Covid-19, will he be done for manslaughter?


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2020)

Clubhouse now closed for the forseeable. Rakes and divot boxes removed and advised not to touch flags. All competitions cancelled.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 17, 2020)

Holiday to USA in April cancelled.
Gin Festival the wife is organising in May postponed.
Working from Home for at least the next 2 weeks.
Supposed tomorrow to start a new role based out Sweden in June can’t see that one working out.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Clubhouse now closed for the forseeable. Rakes and divot boxes removed and advised not to touch flags. All competitions cancelled.
		
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Why dont they remove the flags?


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## User20204 (Mar 17, 2020)

Seniors inter-club matches cancelled til at least end of April, gutted.


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## IainP (Mar 17, 2020)

At times of crisis,  some old fashioned humour may be called for
(opinions may not be my own 😉)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 17, 2020)

HMRC have just set up a help line specifically for the self employed and businesses who will be struggling now due to Coronavirus

The Coronavirus helpline : 0800 0159 559

Apparently they will give you advice on your tax and any benefits you can claim for.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2020)

Our company have told us not to use Dutch ports any more and to use UK ports. Our work site is 1 + 1/2 hours transit from Scheveningen (The Hague) and 10 hours from Lowestoft which is now going to be our port of choice. It's not directly due to Corona Virus infection risks but more concerns over being able to get food, water and fuel supplies with much of the Netherlands on lock down.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why dont they remove the flags?
		
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I thought that but I guess it gives you something to aim at and no need to touch it.


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## ger147 (Mar 17, 2020)

I am now grounded, have to WFH until further notice. Surprised it too so long as we had a case in our office last Friday.

But at least I'm lucky enough to be able to continue working with a minimum level of inconvenience. I have no idea how the hundreds of thousands of folk work in the leisure and hospitality industries are gonna cope when the employers can no longer afford to keep paying them.


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			The french have just announced that Ibuprofen can exaberate the symptons and to only take paracetamol, so to all those who haev stock piled Iborofen 

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Fact checker just blew that one out of the water, anyway long term use of Iborofen is bad for you anyway as it attacks the stomach lining.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2020)

Huge package of support from the government.  Very welcome but there is going to be an issue for many small business in respect of loans available to pay employees.  If the business gets bye on a week-to-week or similar basis, as many do, then they are going to struggle to pay off a loan - no matter how good the interest rate or delayed start to repayments.  There is then a risk that they just take the support through a non-repayable grant to keep the business going - which is great - but they decide they can't afford t take on debt and so don't take up the offer of the loan to pay employees - and so the employees don't get paid.

Hopefully the chancellor has more measures to reveal tomorrow as he said in the briefing.  Not sure why he didn't reveal all measures today - but maybe this is all happending so quickly that he just hasn#'t been able to sort them out properly.  Thought Sunak did a good briefing btw.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Huge package of support from the government.  Very welcome but there is going to be an issue for many small business in respect of loans available to pay employees.  If the business gets bye on a week-to-week or similar basis, as many do, then they are going to struggle to pay off a loan - no matter how good the interest rate or delayed start to repayments.  There is then a risk that they just take the support through a non-repayable grant to keep the business going - which is great - but they decide they can't afford t take on debt and so don't take up the offer of the loan to pay employees - and so the employees don't get paid.

Hopefully the chancellor has more measures to reveal tomorrow as he said in the briefing.  Not sure why he didn't reveal all measures today - but maybe this is all happending so quickly that he just hasn#'t been able to sort them out properly.  Thought Sunak did a good briefing btw.
		
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 He did mention Mortgage holidays which will be a help for people but no mention of helping people renting where many will find it difficult.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Huge package of support from the government.  Very welcome but there is going to be an issue for many small business in respect of loans available to pay employees.  If the business gets bye on a week-to-week or similar basis, as many do, then they are going to struggle to pay off a loan - no matter how good the interest rate or delayed start to repayments.  There is then a risk that they just take the support through a non-repayable grant to keep the business going - which is great - but they decide they can't afford t take on debt and so don't take up the offer of the loan to pay employees - and so the employees don't get paid.

Hopefully the chancellor has more measures to reveal tomorrow as he said in the briefing.  Not sure why he didn't reveal all measures today - but maybe this is all happending so quickly that he just hasn#'t been able to sort them out properly.  Thought Sunak did a good briefing btw.
		
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I'm hoping this will show the Tories how important the NHS is 

Also social support massively important


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I thought that but I guess it gives you something to aim at and no need to touch it.
		
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We stopped handling the flag today and leave it in to stop cross contamination, we also mark own card in fun comps (thought it a bit ott) but at least we got out there.


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## casuk (Mar 17, 2020)

Not effected me one bit to be fair, i wasmt really paying attention tho and still a bit meh about it,  just wondering how it will effect me physically if at all, is it just older people with underlying health issues that need to worry, being 40 and relatively healthy I think I'm ok but not 100% sure, can anyone summarise before I go down a minefield of conspiracy and scare tactics


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## garyinderry (Mar 17, 2020)

Rumours the Republic of ireland about to lock down.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We stopped handling the flag today and leave it in to stop cross contamination, we also mark own card in fun comps (thought it a bit ott) but at least we got out there.
		
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Probably good to just have one card in a group and play AM/AM format


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2020)




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## clubchamp98 (Mar 17, 2020)

casuk said:



			Not effected me one bit to be fair, i wasmt really paying attention tho and still a bit meh about it,  just wondering how it will effect me physically if at all, is it just older people with underlying health issues that need to worry, being 40 and relatively healthy I think I'm ok but not 100% sure, can anyone summarise before I go down a minefield of conspiracy and scare tactics
		
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It’s not really you it’s about , but who you might infect if you catch it.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 29399

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No smoking in the Toilets.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2020)

Stopped in local pub on way home. Quiet but a good few people still in. Food orders minimal but plenty still supping


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## Fromtherough (Mar 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Stopped in local pub on way home. Quiet but a good few people still in. Food orders minimal but plenty still supping
		
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Do you not work for the NHS? Do you have access to front line staff or patients? If so this is quite irresponsible behaviour.


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## Andy (Mar 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Stopped in local pub on way home. Quiet but a good few people still in. Food orders minimal but plenty still supping
		
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Your diabetic, why would you not be social distancing as much as possible?


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2020)

Andy said:



			Your diabetic, why would you not be social distancing as much as possible?
		
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Not many pubs where you can't manage a 2m no go zone these days but I take the sentiment.


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			Do you not work for the NHS? Do you have access to front line staff or patients? If so this is quite irresponsible behaviour.
		
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I think you'll find it's a PONTI roll


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## bladeplayer (Mar 17, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Rumours the Republic of ireland about to lock down.
		
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Nope just had taoiseach on   great speech . No doubt it might in next few week . I think uk in for massive shock when more testing available . Ive bn mad wrong about loadsa things tho


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 17, 2020)

Andy said:



			Your diabetic, why would you not be social distancing as much as possible?
		
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Popped to the pub after work with a diabetic. He isn’t worried, more worried about the sweat beads on his forehead  and quick access to sugar. 
You must remember many aren’t too bothered or buy into the hysteria. most at my work would kiss for a dose as it’s paid time off.


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## Andy (Mar 17, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Popped to the pub after work with a diabetic. He isn’t worried, more worried about the sweat beads on his forehead  and quick access to sugar. 
You must remember many aren’t too bothered or buy into the hysteria. most at my work would kiss for a dose as it’s paid time off.
		
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That's all in well, they may not care, but it's the unfortunate folk they may infect thru their selfishness. 

They want a boot in the baws.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 17, 2020)

Just come back fron a lovely Mexican village on the  coast. Anyway the Taxi driver said no one is bothered about the virus at all. He said the last one ? SARS. Hardly anyone got it so there not bothered again. Although his face dropped when I told him.thw tourists are being stopped from coming over.
It really is a different world and mentality here.


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## User20204 (Mar 17, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			. most at my work would kiss for a dose as it’s paid time off.
		
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I've heard some nurses have been having the same thoughts, how dare they eh.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 17, 2020)

Ron Swanson has cancelled his tour and I had tickets. Arse.


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## BrianM (Mar 18, 2020)

Crazy offshore at the moment, taken half the seats away so people aren’t sitting opposite each other, galley only open during meal times, no food in chillers.
Started testing temperatures off people coming to the rig, still a worry out here because if one gets it, we pretty much all get it and it’s only a matter of time.


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2020)

Missus is working from home now, I'm still out on the road visiting lots of customers which kind of defeats the object.
I was at a place in Bolton yesterday, the manager has just started chemotherapy and it still attending work despite being at risk. He said he can't afford to be off work, mental.


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## Smiffy (Mar 18, 2020)

Holiday to France early June looks like it will be offski.......


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## backwoodsman (Mar 18, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			Holiday to France early June looks like it will be offski.......


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And I'm not keeping my hopes up for similar, booked end of June. (And even less so for the Spanish trip at end April)


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## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

Dad's seperate flights and hotel in Portugal now cancelled. 

Still waiting on BA to cancel. Our package.


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## Crazyface (Mar 18, 2020)

Ryanair still on. We're going. But our tickets to see Jack Dee in this country are to be refunded. Bluddy ridiculous.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Ryanair still on. We're going. But our tickets to see Jack Dee in this country are to be refunded. Bluddy ridiculous.
		
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Unless im reading this wrong and u think the fact ryanair are still going is the ridiculas part .. if so i apologise in advance 

I dont know u from Adam mate i hope u may b joking . . World is in an bad place like never before . This is very real .  There is no way a jack dee show is more important than health .

Portugal b in lockdown in cpl of days by all accounts .

I might b only one saying it but surely more are thinking it ??

Best wishes and stay safe


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			And I'm not keeping my hopes up for similar, booked end of June. (And even less so for the Spanish trip at end April)
		
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Got Le Touquet end of April and keep emailing Golfbreaks to find out where we stand as golf courses now closed - guess what, no response, not even an acknowledgement and a wait out.  Supposed to be going to Greece mid June and still have my fingers crossed.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Anyone spot the floor in the French system of checking the documents escapees are having to carry.


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## patricks148 (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Got Le Touquet end of April and keep emailing Golfbreaks to find out where we stand as golf courses now closed - guess what, no response, not even an acknowledgement and a wait out.  Supposed to be going to Greece mid June and still have my fingers crossed.
		
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i've couple of work trips booked.... they are still going ahead... one is Sumburgh the other Stornoway and Benbecula


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2020)

Getting serious ........Werthers out of stock with Tesco online.

On the bright side all Orange Order marches stopped and Andrew Neil show cancelled


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Ryanair still on. We're going. But our tickets to see Jack Dee in this country are to be refunded. Bluddy ridiculous.
		
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Do you go right left while everyone else is going left right.  You don't seem to be aware of what is happening out there.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Ryanair still on. We're going. But our tickets to see Jack Dee in this country are to be refunded. Bluddy ridiculous.
		
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https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/portugal https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice   Have you not seen the news of UK citizens stuck out in foreign countries?  Agree that Ryanair are being arseholes and prioritizing profits over the safety of their passengers, but then again what do you expect?

I would seriously consider not going as you really do not want to be stranded out in a foreign country under isolation/lock down with supermarkets being stripped of food, some airlines days away from going bust and flights getting cancelled hand over fist. Countries will understandably not be prioritizing overseas visitors who have come to their country despite all advice saying not to. And you can guarantee Ryanair will wash their hands of you, they ain't going to be putting on any rescue flights. . Stay safe, this %^& is real.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/portugal https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice   Have you not seen the news of UK citizens stuck out in foreign countries?  Agree that Ryanair are being arseholes and prioritizing profits over the safety of their passengers, but then again what do you expect?

I would seriously consider not going as you really do not want to be stranded out in a foreign country under isolation/lock down with supermarkets being stripped of food, some airlines days away from going bust and flights getting cancelled hand over fist. Countries will understandably not be prioritizing overseas visitors who have come to their country despite all advice saying not to. And you can guarantee Ryanair will wash their hands of you, they ain't going to be putting on any rescue flights. . Stay safe, this %^& is real.
		
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I am quite surprised that many folk seem to be putting their fingers in their ears and singing lalalalalalal.

I spoke to an elderly relative yesterday who is in poor health.
Yesterday he took a 5 mile bus trip to the nearest town for a coffee and a walk on the beach.

Our family/friends have some high up health and Government connections and ALL of them say it is going to be awful


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## Fade and Die (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/portugal https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice   Have you not seen the news of UK citizens stuck out in foreign countries?  Agree that Ryanair are being arseholes and prioritizing profits over the safety of their passengers, but then again what do you expect?

I would seriously consider not going as you really do not want to be stranded out in a foreign country under isolation/lock down with supermarkets being stripped of food, some airlines days away from going bust and flights getting cancelled hand over fist. Countries will understandably not be prioritizing overseas visitors who have come to their country despite all advice saying not to. And you can guarantee Ryanair will wash their hands of you, they ain't going to be putting on any rescue flights. . Stay safe, this %^& is real.
		
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Isn’t Crazyface just grumbling about Ryanair not cancelling his flight rather than not being able to see Jack Dee? (I hope so anyway!)

I have flights booked to Orlando in June with TUI, I’ve paid for a Hire car and paid non-refundable deposits on a villa and an apartment, all on the credit card so there is some element of protection, however the balance is due on the accommodations in April by Bank transfer. So what to do? I asked my travel insurer for advice they have just replied by sending me a link pretty much absolving themselves of any liability (so much for 4 star defacto!) 
Tbh I would rather just cancel the whole thing but until either the flight is cancelled or Trump extends his ban on Europeans MasterCard is not interested in refunds.


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## Twire (Mar 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He did mention Mortgage holidays which will be a help for people but no mention of helping people renting where many will find it difficult.
		
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I think the government should ask landlords to give the tenant the same 'Rent Holiday'. If the landlord doesn't have a Mortgage on the property they can put a claim in same as other businesses. If it is Mortgaged then they should pass the Mortgage holiday onto the tenant.


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## Crazyface (Mar 18, 2020)

It's not Ryanair that's the problem. it's our useless government. BJ first real task and he's failing miserably. We should be on complete lock down NOW not after it's gets really bad. CAn people still fly in to the UK? I've not heard that they can't. So we are allowing the virus in from abroad???? WTH?????? The theatre where Jack Dee was on have cancelled all shows and are refunding, but Ryanair are keeping flights to foreign countries going as the government has not banned it. The government should be banning all flights. I'll stand to loose £2K if I don't go. So to hell with BJ and his "advice". We will be going.


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## Crazyface (Mar 18, 2020)

Oh...and our local 10 pin bowling centre is open???????????????????????????????????????????????? Bonkers.


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## Russ_D (Mar 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Oh...and our local 10 pin bowling centre is open???????????????????????????????????????????????? Bonkers.
		
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Hope the pins are exercising social distancing


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 18, 2020)

Andy said:



			That's all in well, they may not care, but it's the unfortunate folk they may infect thru their selfishness.

They want a boot in the baws.
		
Click to expand...

If anybody feels or is vulnerable, scared, or high risk they should isolate. 
Most on here I’m sure will be leaving the house today and mingling with other people contributing to the spread.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

My wife is driving up to her mum in Ch'field today leaving midday - her brother is now at home at least until after this is over..she wants to check they are as prepared as they can be - so this morning I am gathering a load of books, DVDs and jigsaws for her to take up.  Never thought my magpie-like collecting of books and jigsaws would ever be put to such a use as this.

She's coming back down Saturday - after also checking my son is OK in Sheff - as it's quite possible the SE England (because of London) if not the whole country could be put into lockdown after this weekend.


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## Mudball (Mar 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I thought that but I guess it gives you something to aim at and no need to touch it.
		
Click to expand...

Just move all holes to middle of green this week, then back next and front after that.    Tell this to everyone who signs in.   No need for flags after that.   

Different question with the rakes...  but atleast it has solved the burning question - should rakes be in or out...  the answer is 'locked in the shop'


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I*t's not Ryanair that's the problem. it's our useless government.* BJ first real task and he's failing miserably. We should be on complete lock down NOW not after it's gets really bad. CAn people still fly in to the UK? I've not heard that they can't. So we are allowing the virus in from abroad???? WTH?????? The theatre where Jack Dee was on have cancelled all shows and are refunding, but Ryanair are keeping flights to foreign countries going as the government has not banned it. The government should be banning all flights.* I'll stand to loose £2K if I don't go. *So to hell with BJ and his "advice". We will be going.
		
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The government advice has been quite clear. Just because there are some apparent contradictions that can only be completely irradiated if we literally put everyone under house arrest and tell them they can not move does not mean you ignore the advice.

The problem is that people are making decisions based on sunken costs which should not really play into it. How much do you think it may cost you to get back when Ryanair stop flying and tell you that the government advice was not to travel in the 1st place so you're on your own? Please do not assume that Ryanair have any obligation to get you back if they took you there.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2020)

Twire said:



			I think the government should ask landlords to give the tenant the same 'Rent Holiday'. If the landlord doesn't have a Mortgage on the property they can put a claim in same as other businesses. If it is Mortgaged then they should pass the Mortgage holiday onto the tenant.
		
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The 'mortgage' holiday may allow payments to be stopped but I bet they'll still keep charging and racking up the interest !!


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## USER1999 (Mar 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			The 'mortgage' holiday may allow payments to be stopped but I bet they'll still keep charging and racking up the interest !!
		
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They will do exactly that. Apparently there will also be no mortgage holiday available for buy to let either.


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## rosecott (Mar 18, 2020)

Fully paid up for our annual Belek trip, due to fly out 1 week after the announced 30-day non-essential travel ban - not expecting that it will go ahead.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I* am quite surprised that many folk seem to be putting their fingers in their ears and singing lalalalalalal.*

I spoke to an elderly relative yesterday who is in poor health.
Yesterday he took a 5 mile bus trip to the nearest town for a coffee and a walk on the beach.

Our family/friends have some high up health and Government connections and ALL of them say it is going to be awful
		
Click to expand...

Darwinism will kick in, you just hope that they don't take too many others down with them.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			The 'mortgage' holiday may allow payments to be stopped but I bet they'll still keep charging and racking up the interest !!
		
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murphthemog said:



			They will do exactly that. Apparently there will also be no mortgage holiday available for buy to let either.
		
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I thought the statement announced that there would be no interest or charges added for the 3 month payment holiday.


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## DanFST (Mar 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			1) So we are allowing the virus in from abroad???? WTH?????? 
2)Ryanair are keeping flights to foreign countries going as the government has not banned it.  
3)I'll stand to loose £2K if I don't go. So to hell with BJ and his "advice". We will be going.
		
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1) It's already here, and will be for a long time. 
2) they have grounded most of their fleet 
3) I doubt you will be.


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## User62651 (Mar 18, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Just move all holes to middle of green this week, then back next and front after that.    Tell this to everyone who signs in.   No need for flags after that. 

Different question with the rakes...  but atleast it has solved the burning question - should rakes be in or out...  the answer is 'locked in the shop'
		
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Cant have unraked bunkers so is it free drop from bunkers or should everyone carry their own mini-rake?


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## USER1999 (Mar 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought the statement announced that there would be no interest or charges added for the 3 month payment holiday.
		
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Not what was in The Gruaniad.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			If anybody feels or is vulnerable, scared, or high risk they should isolate.
Most on here I’m sure will be leaving the house today and mingling with other people contributing to the spread.
		
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I have a major dilemma on this matter.

I and a friend run a support group for very vulnerable individuals - all-ages, male, female whatever - it's for everyone and anyone.  For many of the individuals - coming to the group can (literally) be a matter of life and death.  And it is very important that the group is available for anyone to come along who hasn't been before. 

The venue is open if we wish to use it.

What do I do?  For me I'd rather avoid it and cancel the meeting. 

But in speaking with my wife on this, and with her OK, I have decided that I must keep the group open for as long as government policy allows us to keep it open.

I will set chairs out in the room to give the necessary spacing - and might indeed pause the meeting every ten minutes for us to play musical chairs to avoid anyone sitting beside anyone else for 15 minutes.  And I'll have to ask any with a cough - and there is one who has a terrible persistent cough - if they can perhaps isolate even more (sit in the corner of the room like a naughty boy) - and as a minimum cough into a tissue if he must.

Bottom line is that it is dead easy for me to talk about my principles in seeking guidance on doing the right thing - especially in a difficult situation - in trying to determine what is the right thing to do as opposed to what my will might want me to do myself or for myself - but thoughts without action are worthless.

Difficult.  But I guess I must rely on my much maligned faith.


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## pendodave (Mar 18, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Not what was in The Gruaniad.
		
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I'm as Lettie as anyone on this board, but I have to say the guardian's coverage has seemed a bit off to me over the last few days. As for the comments below the line....
For example, they had a headline yesterday that deaths in Italy had increased by 16%. Maybe correct, but not especially insightful. It we had a steady 10 deaths a day starting from zero, the 3rd day would represent a 50% increase, it would sound terrible but wouldn't really tell us anything. But it sure looks scary as a headline.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm *hoping this will show the Tories how important the NHS is*

Also social support massively important
		
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_
The NHS - All for One and One for All_

Let us never forget this time


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## Robster59 (Mar 18, 2020)

The other day my pharmacist had two trestle tables in front of the counter with strict instructions on one person only at a time, 2 metres from all staff and no need to sign prescriptions. 
I've woken up with what I think/hope is a cold. 
Worrying when my partner has diabetes and my father in law, who lives with us, has dementia and medical issues.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am quite surprised that *many folk seem to be putting their fingers in their ears and singing lalalalalalal.*

I spoke to an elderly relative yesterday who is in poor health.
Yesterday he took a 5 mile bus trip to the nearest town for a coffee and a walk on the beach.

Our family/friends have some high up health and Government connections and ALL of them say it is going to be awful
		
Click to expand...

Met a friend yesterday and it was as if she had had her head in the sand for the last few weeks.  She kept coming close to me to show me a message on her phone and I kept stepping away from her saying half jokingly 'keep your distance lass'.  And her response 'Oh Ken (her husband) is doing all that sort of stuff...and he's irritating me'. It's as if Ken is doing it then it's an over-reaction and unnecessary.  Jeez.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Cant have unraked bunkers so is it free drop from bunkers or should everyone carry their own mini-rake?

Click to expand...

As all our comps are non qualifying ones and mostly (fun) all bunkers GUR, simpeles


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have a major dilemma on this matter.

I and a friend run a support group for very vulnerable individuals - all-ages, male, female whatever - it's for everyone and anyone.  For many of the individuals - coming to the group can (literally) be a matter of life and death.  And it is very important that the group is available for anyone to come along who hasn't been before.

The venue is open if we wish to use it.

What do I do?  For me I'd rather avoid it and cancel the meeting.

But in speaking with my wife on this, and with her OK, I have decided that I must keep the group open for as long as government policy allows us to keep it open.

I will set chairs out in the room to give the necessary spacing - and might indeed pause the meeting every ten minutes for us to play musical chairs to avoid anyone sitting beside anyone else for 15 minutes.  And I'll have to ask any with a cough - and there is one who has a terrible persistent cough - if they can perhaps isolate even more (sit in the corner of the room like a naughty boy) - and as a minimum cough into a tissue if he must.

Bottom line is that it is dead easy for me to talk about my principles in seeking guidance on doing the right thing - especially in a difficult situation - in trying to determine what is the right thing to do as opposed to what my will might want me to do myself or for myself - but thoughts without action are worthless.

Difficult.  But I guess I must rely on my much maligned faith.
		
Click to expand...

Crack on including the social spacing (DO NOT PLAY MUSICAL CHAIRS)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

I am willing the government to be doing the right thing and praying that they continue to do it - but I just don't understand at all why front line service providers (health, police, fire services etc) who display any symptoms that might possibly be cv are not being tested - but are having to go into self-isolation along with their family.  And it is a fact that many. many health professionals are married or partnered with other health professionals.  And so when one goes down with a cough - they are both taken-out.  Why are they not being tested immediately?  I really just don't get it and if anything really worries me that we are not being told everything it is that. 

I need to believe *absolutely* in the government and their chief advises.


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## User20204 (Mar 18, 2020)

I can tell you nurses are to be tested.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Crack on including the social spacing (DO NOT PLAY MUSICAL CHAIRS)
		
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Ah - twigged why not play MCs. Obvious -  If someone has the cv they are likely to transfer it onto the chair...

many thanks OS


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will set chairs out in the room to give the necessary spacing - *and might indeed pause the meeting every ten minutes for us to play musical chairs to avoid anyone sitting beside anyone else for 15 minutes.*  And I'll have to ask any with a cough - and there is one who has a terrible persistent cough - if they can perhaps isolate even more (sit in the corner of the room like a naughty boy) - and as a minimum cough into a tissue if he must.
		
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Wouldn't this increase the risk of it spreading through the whole group if someone does have it? If one person does have it and sits next to the same two people for the whole time then it's possible they could pass it on to those two. If one person has it and moves to sit next to new people every 10 minutes then it's possible that they could pass it on to everyone else.

Please don't take that as a criticism as I applaud you for trying to keep the group open as long as possible but the above sprung to mind when I read your post.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have a major dilemma on this matter.

I and a friend run a support group for very vulnerable individuals - all-ages, male, female whatever - it's for everyone and anyone.  For many of the individuals - coming to the group can (literally) be a matter of life and death.  And it is very important that the group is available for anyone to come along who hasn't been before.
		
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What does the support group provide, food, drink, beds?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wouldn't this increase the risk of it spreading through the whole group if someone does have it? If one person does have it and sits next to the same two people for the whole time then it's possible they could pass it on to those two. If one person has it and moves to sit next to new people every 10 minutes then it's possible that they could pass it on to everyone else.

Please don't take that as a criticism as I applaud you for trying to keep the group open as long as possible but the above sprung to mind when I read your post.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely - as OS pointed out but many thanks also.  I'm just trying to work through how I keep the group going - but see how easy it is to get something totally wrong whilst trying to get it right


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What does the support group provide, food, drink, beds?
		
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Spiritual (in it's broadest sense) support, companionship and advice, and a safe place to go for an hour or two.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 18, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm as Lettie as anyone on this board, but I have to say the guardian's coverage has seemed a bit off to me over the last few days. As for the comments below the line....
For example, they had a headline yesterday that deaths in Italy had increased by 16%. Maybe correct, but not especially insightful. It we had a steady 10 deaths a day starting from zero, the 3rd day would represent a 50% increase, it would sound terrible but wouldn't really tell us anything. But it sure looks scary as a headline.
		
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The problem with journalists is that they have been taught that the most important thing is the "headline "I.e. Use it to show how good you are, how to dive home the point of how good you are by dramatising the subject to its fullest. Truth?,Perspective?, - what's that?
E.g. It would be helpful to morale, etc if the press found out and informed us what the estimated ( by government) figures were on how many have the virus, as opposed to how many have tested positive.
Then the percentage of deaths to that figure would be more realistic as to the situation, though less dramatic "reporting"


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Spiritual (in it's broadest sense) support, companionship and advice, and a safe place to go for an hour or two.
		
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In normal times, yes. But are you sure in the present situation, bringing any people together is the safe place to be?  For them.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Spiritual (in it's broadest sense) support, companionship and advice, and a safe place to go for an hour or two.
		
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So not literally life and death then.
I would have thought putting lots of vulnerable people together in one room would be the last thing you'd want to do, especially when the experts advice is to self isolate.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The problem with journalists is that they have been taught that the most important thing is the "headline "I.e. Use it to show how good you are, how to dive home the point of how good you are by dramatising the subject to its fullest. Truth?,Perspective?, - what's that?
E.g. It would be helpful to morale, etc if the press found out and informed us what the estimated ( by government) figures were on how many have the virus, as opposed to how many have tested positive.
Then the percentage of deaths to that figure would be more realistic as to the situation, though less dramatic "reporting"
		
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Yup. and why do presenters insist on shouting as if they were 'projecting' at a theatre - there are things called microphones !!


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## pendodave (Mar 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The problem with journalists is that they have been taught that the most important thing is the "headline "I.e. Use it to show how good you are, how to dive home the point of how good you are by dramatising the subject to its fullest. Truth?,Perspective?, - what's that?
E.g. It would be helpful to morale, etc if the press found out and informed us what the estimated ( by government) figures were on how many have the virus, as opposed to how many have tested positive.
Then the percentage of deaths to that figure would be more realistic as to the situation, though less dramatic "reporting"
		
Click to expand...

The most useful thing to do would be to tell us how much loo roll the average person uses in a week. People might stop being so stupid if they realised that they already had a month's worth in the cupboard.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So not literally life and death then.
I would have thought putting lots of vulnerable people together in one room would be the last thing you'd want to do, especially when the experts advice is to self isolate.
		
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It may be hard to believe - and sceptics might scoff - but I am afraid that it can literally be a matter of life and death for some.  If it wasn't I wouldn't be thinking of doing it.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2020)

I read Sainsburys is to prioritise online orders for over 70s and other 'special' groups - Yet nowhere on my 'personal' account does it have any record of my age or infirmities- so how !

Their email are no longer monitored...


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## Andy (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It may be hard to believe - and sceptics might scoff - but I am afraid that it can literally be a matter of life and death for some.  If it wasn't I wouldn't be thinking of doing it.
		
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Talk on the phone, create a WhatsApp group but right now there's absolutely no need for any group to be meeting for a chat.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So not literally life and death then.
I would have thought putting lots of vulnerable people together in one room would be the last thing you'd want to do, especially when the experts advice is to self isolate.
		
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Might be life and death in some circumstances. I'm a volunteer Caseworker for armed forces charities and some cases support, help and advice on a level that cannot be managed over a phone or Skype call unfortunately.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			I read Sainsburys is to prioritise online orders for over 70s and other 'special' groups - Yet nowhere on my 'personal' account does it have any record of my age or infirmities- so how !

Their email are no longer monitored...
		
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Can they get your age from the credit card you will have associated with the account?  And to be honest we leave a massive digital trace online and companies know so much about everyone nowadays, so getting someones age will be simple as long as it does not break GDPR rules.


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## USER1999 (Mar 18, 2020)

one of the ladies I work with gets her online supermarket delivery. All of the items she ordered were missing, except two bars of chocolate.


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## Dando (Mar 18, 2020)

Some knob on my floor has been feeling rough and has been diagnosed with covid so my floor is on lock down, which I found out once I got the office even though we have a text  alert system! 
I use a certain desk top box that is only used on the 7th floor so I’m now back at home on the phone to my IT team.


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## bobmac (Mar 18, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			one of the ladies I work with gets her online supermarket delivery. All of the items she ordered were missing, except two bars of chocolate.
		
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And delivery times are now weeks, not days. 
Delivery drivers are going to be busy.


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2020)

Multiple rumours that the army are being mobilised ahead of a more serious lockdown commencing possibly as soon as this week, train companies talking about going to weekend services and I’ve been told that in one particular Tesco in Liverpool customers wouldn’t believe the store had run out of food so stormed en masse into the warehouse.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2020)

Getting around lockdown here in Spain. Today's salsa class was FaceTime'd,(er, for the wife of course) and tonight's pub quiz is the same. Tomorrow night sees one of the local comedians FT-ing his act.

Edit; a "rock the lockdown" concert tomorrow night by one of the local DJ's, online.


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## Russ_D (Mar 18, 2020)

Went to get some bread last night, Sainsburys didnt have any.....not even brown bread!!
Ended up getting a pack of hot cross buns (nearly bread), some pitta's and crackerbread. Needs must and all that!


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 18, 2020)

Further to my last post,  I have just read that Sir Patrick Vallance, chief Government advisor has admitted(sic) that though 71 people have died from 
1950 confirmed cases, the true figure of those infected is believed to be 55000 or more.
If my maths ( calculator😀) is correct that's a percentage of deaths of 0.129.
To me that is more reassuring of my chances than just showing confirmed cases.
And why the hell the reporter used the term "admitted" just shows the point I was making.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2020)

I'm offshore so avoiding all of the madness at the minute but just received a WhatsApp message from Mrs Colch who had been to the (pretty much empty) supermarket this morning.......

"I'm beginning to feel quite glad we are going into isolation, then I won't have to be near any of the f***ing idiots that have caused this chaos".


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## Russ_D (Mar 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Getting around lockdown here in Spain. Today's salsa class was FaceTime'd,(er, for the wife of course) and tonight's pub quiz is the same. Tomorrow night sees one of the local comedians FT-ing his act.
		
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Face time pub quiz? How will they stop potential cheating


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## DanFST (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Multiple rumours that the army are being mobilised ahead of a more serious lockdown commencing possibly as soon as this week
		
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What is a more serious lockdown?

Deputy medical Chief Van-Tam stated: "We don't rule out taking further measures if these are necessary but much of this depends on how the next two weeks play out."


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			What is a more serious lockdown?

Deputy medical Chief Van-Tam stated: "We don't rule out taking further measures if these are necessary but much of this depends on how the next two weeks play out."
		
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Confined to our houses by law when not at work or making essential trips such as for food or medical appointments.


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## chrisd (Mar 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm offshore so avoiding all of the madness at the minute but just received a WhatsApp message from Mrs Colch who had been to the (pretty much empty) supermarket this morning.......

"I'm beginning to feel quite glad we are going into isolation, then I won't have to be near any of the f***ing idiots that have caused this chaos".
		
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 Tiebreak- 25 teams of 6 all with 100% correct


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Current contribution to society during the corona outbreak:

Bankers and stock traders being paid vast salaries: Essentially trying to make money from companies failing, reducing your pension and money invested in the stock markets by at least 25%
Shelf stackers, delivery drivers, nurses and NHS workers, teachers, care workers being paid a hell of a lot less:  Essentially allowing society to keep functioning at a vaguely normal level.

Let's hope once we are through this we remember who got us through this and may be start to value certain professions a lot more.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

Andy said:



			Talk on the phone, create a WhatsApp group but right now there's absolutely no need for any group to be meeting for a chat.
		
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All of the above we'll obviously try and get going.  But it's not _just _a 'chat' - in fact it's not really a 'chat' as such.


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## User62651 (Mar 18, 2020)

Took the dog out to woods earlier, saw one other person at 30yds distance although our dogs said a playful hello and 'chase me' prance. Surely dog walking should be ok going forward or could cv in theory pass from hand to dog fur to dog fur to my hand as we all handle our dogs?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Current contribution to society during the corona outbreak:

*Bankers and stock traders being paid vast salaries: Essentially trying to make money from companies failing, reducing your pension and money invested in the stock markets by at least 25%*
Shelf stackers, delivery drivers, nurses and NHS workers, teachers, care workers being paid a hell of a lot less:  Essentially allowing society to keep functioning at a vaguely normal level.

Let's hope once we are through this we remember who got us through this and may be start to value certain professions a lot more.
		
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The same bankers & stock traders that encourage you to put your money into these companies as it will benefit you?


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## DanFST (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Current contribution to society during the corona outbreak:

Bankers and stock traders being paid vast salaries: Essentially trying to make money from companies failing, reducing your pension and money invested in the stock markets by at least 25%
		
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Call me biased, but not true in the slightest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Multiple rumours that the army are being mobilised ahead of a more serious lockdown commencing possibly as soon as this week, train companies talking about going to weekend services and I’ve been told that in one particular Tesco in Liverpool customers wouldn’t believe the store had run out of food so stormed en masse into the warehouse.
		
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The police and army will have to be patrolling the streets - not just to get those being delinquent.  One reason why the government has to be getting money to everyone asap.  My town does not have much history of ram raiding - and so many shops, stores etc do not have any security shuttering.


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## Imurg (Mar 18, 2020)

I'm getting more and more twitchy about work...coming around to thinking that it's time to call it a day for a while..maybe just work for those with tests coming up..at least until they start getting cancelled..
Thing is, Mrs Imurg is high up in the SCBU at Stoke Mandeville..going to be running the unit when she's there as staff are getting redeployed..if I get it she has to be off for 2 weeks and the unit can't afford that...


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## Mudball (Mar 18, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Cant have unraked bunkers so is it free drop from bunkers or should everyone carry their own mini-rake?

Click to expand...

Free drop or GUR...  keep it simple  

Also mark your own cards - so no one will notice what you write  down.   No need to exchange cards at the end or shake hands.   Boris promised everyone will get a Handicap holiday for everyone - esp the low handicappers are the most vulnerable.  Their HC wont be cut as a result of a few Coronas.  Those will high HC, should go and get some lessons - as schools will remain open 

... obligatory smiley in case anyone is offended


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## Tiger man (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Current contribution to society during the corona outbreak:

Bankers and stock traders being paid vast salaries: Essentially trying to make money from companies failing, reducing your pension and money invested in the stock markets by at least 25%
Shelf stackers, delivery drivers, nurses and NHS workers, teachers, care workers being paid a hell of a lot less:  Essentially allowing society to keep functioning at a vaguely normal level.

Let's hope once we are through this we remember who got us through this and may be start to value certain professions a lot more.
		
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Funny how these 'important' people soon become useless. Nothing will change though and the people that feel the pinch after all this will be the working class as usual.


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## Mudball (Mar 18, 2020)

For those looking for local mutual support group or to volunteer your services >

https://covidmutualaid.org/local-groups/   (fwd as received)


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## Imurg (Mar 18, 2020)

Well, decision made..I'm off the grid.
Apart from 3 kids with tests coming up, which will probably be cancelled anyway, I'm sitting it out.
A bit of Social Distancing on the golf course for as long as I can, let everything settle and pick it up then.
Decided I need to protect the Mrs health more than fleecing some kids for a few quid.


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2020)

I, too, am in semi-isolation. I’m going to work and to the shops (as little as possible) but other than that it’s home for me. I’m getting a work laptop for Thursday - Tuesday while my partner is at her worst post-chemotherapy. We had been staying at the in-laws but someone in the house was at a party with someone who is now symptomatic at the weekend so we can’t be there until he’s two weeks without symptoms.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 18, 2020)

My neighbour was saying Currys (and I guess other retailers) are having a run on people buying second freezers


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The police and army will have to be patrolling the streets - not just to get those being delinquent.  One reason why the government has to be getting money to everyone asap.  My town does not have much history of ram raiding - and so many shops, stores etc do not have any security shuttering.
		
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It was a rumour, too many people spreading rumours, no wonder so many people are paranoid. Rumour mongers are as bad as those who are currently clearing the shelves of bog roll.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It was a rumour, to many people spreading rumours, no wonder so many people are paranoid. Rumour mangers are as bad as those who are currently clearing the shelves of bog roll.
		
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Some on here just as bad


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## Foxholer (Mar 18, 2020)

At least something positive at last....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51870325


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It was a rumour, too many people spreading rumours, no wonder so many people are paranoid. Rumour mongers are as bad as those who are currently clearing the shelves of bog roll.
		
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 Look at what other countries are doing, look at the myriad posts on social media showing the Army being dispersed across the country and then try and say speculation isn’t normal and acceptable. To equate it with people selfishly hoarding resources is ridiculous.


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## User20204 (Mar 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Well, decision made..I'm off the grid.
Apart from 3 kids with tests coming up, which will probably be cancelled anyway, I'm sitting it out.
A bit of Social Distancing on the golf course for as long as I can, let everything settle and pick it up then.
Decided I need to protect the Mrs health more than fleecing some kids for a few quid.
		
Click to expand...

You are aware this isn't just a few days of hunkering down, for weeks now we've been getting told this could be for months. FM up here has said there is no guarantee schools will open again before the summer holidays.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Look at what other countries are doing, look at the myriad posts on social media showing the Army being dispersed across the country and then try and say speculation isn’t normal and acceptable. To equate it with people selfishly hoarding resources is ridiculous.
		
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Show me facts not what others are doing.


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## hovis (Mar 18, 2020)

my friend told me 9 days ago schools will be closing this Friday to allow for at least 4 weeks break including the Easter break.  at 5pm today the government are making an announcement on schools.  if they do decide to close them I wonder why the government have kept this from us?  perhaps to stop panic or for economic reasons?


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## Imurg (Mar 18, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You are aware this isn't just a few days of hunkering down, for weeks now we've been getting told this could be for months. FM up here has said there is no guarantee schools will open again before the summer holidays.
		
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Seeing as I've heard of driving test centres about to close for 12 weeks I'm pretty certain that by the middle of next week this decision would be forced on me anyway.
As I say, keeping the Mrs healthy comes first.
It's a hit but it's only money....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some on here just as bad
		
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Oh the irony!! How’s the gargling with salt water going.


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## hovis (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Oh the irony!! How’s the gargling with salt water going.

Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Oh the irony!! How’s the gargling with salt water going.

Click to expand...

Probably quite nice as he's been doing it in the local boozer 😒


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Look at what other countries are doing, look at the myriad posts on social media showing the Army being dispersed across the country and then try and say speculation isn’t normal and acceptable. To equate it with people selfishly hoarding resources is ridiculous.
		
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People reporting a large convoy of CR2's on the motorway,  cant be large, we dont have a large number. So I presume we are deploying tanks across the country.


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Show me facts not what others are doing.
		
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You must be a lark at parties.


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## USER1999 (Mar 18, 2020)

put a tank outside Asda. That would stop people panic buying loo roll.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			my friend told me 9 days ago schools will be closing this Friday to allow for at least 4 weeks break including the Easter break.  at 5pm today the government are making an announcement on schools*.  if they do decide to close them I wonder why the government have kept this from us?  perhaps to stop panic or for economic reasons?*

Click to expand...

9 days ago they did not have a plan to close the school this Friday. They are reacting to very fast moving situations where things are literally changing by the hour.  I know of a local person quite high up in the NHS near me who has said that if schools do close then they will lose approx 40% of their staff in their area to look after the kids. Probably worth people considering under all the clamour to close them down.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You must be a lark at parties.
		
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Depends who's it is


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			put a tank outside Asda. That would stop people panic buying loo roll.
		
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Not a good idea, beer stocks would be depleted


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Look at what other countries are doing, look at the myriad posts on social media showing the Army being dispersed across the country and then try and say speculation isn’t normal and acceptable. To equate it with people selfishly hoarding resources is ridiculous.
		
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Except it’s rubbish, the Army are not dispersing anywhere at the moment.
In fact the only place they are moving to is back to barracks as exercises are being cut short and cancelled.

Yes they will be involved in contingency planning and, Yes, some will be used to help the Government, just like they are for all National emergencies, but right now most are sat on their ar5es waiting to be told if and when they are going to be used.


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## hovis (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			9 days ago they did not have a plan to close the school this Friday. They are reacting to very fast moving situations where things are literally changing by the hour.
		
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according to my friend they do have a plan and have known about it for 9 days. his exact word to me was "sort out childcare mate because I've just come out of a meeting on a national level and we're closing next Friday".    I didn't believe him at first but he was adamant it was happening


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			my friend told me 9 days ago schools will be closing this Friday to allow for at least 4 weeks break including the Easter break.  at 5pm today the government are making an announcement on schools.  if they do decide to close them I wonder why the government have kept this from us?  perhaps to stop panic or for economic reasons?
		
Click to expand...

If it is this Friday then - as I mentioned a few days ago - some (if not all) head teachers have known it was likely for a week or more. 

I might suggest that shutting schools before necessary - or knowledge they were going to shut - would have created chaos - even more than the difficulties we've already experience.  Most of us have had a few days to get our thinking into gear if not sorted - around self-isolation - what do do about the elderly/grandparents etc.  If the children had been dumped on the parents too soon - or that certainly made clear a week ago - there is a risk that parents and grandparents thinking might have gone haywire.


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## Mudball (Mar 18, 2020)

While you are self-isolating >>  https://open.spotify.com/playlist/55V6HUzPnISl7ADpE3yfUD?si=TlzWBBtSRr6RgfVr2W41IA


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Except it’s rubbish, the Army are not dispersing anywhere at the moment.
In fact the only place they are moving to is back to barracks as exercises are being cut short and cancelled.

Yes they will be involved in contingency planning and, Yes, some will be used to help the Government, just like they are for all National emergencies, but right now most are sat on their ar5es waiting to be told if and when they are going to be used.
		
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Which is the correct answer. The only thing any Soldier, marine, airman or sailors that aren't on deployment are doing right now is the usual weekday war of block jobs,  naafi breaks or cleaning vehicles in between rounds of trying not to piss your SSM incase you get ROPs meaning no chance of going on the lash at the weekend.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Which is the correct answer. The only thing any Soldier, marine, airman or sailors that aren't on deployment are doing right now is the usual weekday war of block jobs,  naafi breaks or cleaning vehicles in between rounds of trying not to piss your SSM incase you get ROPs meaning no chance of going on the lash at the weekend.
		
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Mate’s lad on his way back to Arbroath from Norway after they’ve cut that short, said the lad’s are totally pissed off and would rather stay in Norway.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some on here just as bad
		
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Pot calling kettle 😂😂😂

Edit. 

Sorry @pauldj42 hadn't read the whole thread.


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## JamesR (Mar 18, 2020)

I'm now working from home - following last year's illness, and due to my asthma, I've been deemed to much at risk, and forced by the firm to decamp to the house.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			my friend told me 9 days ago schools will be closing this Friday to allow for at least 4 weeks break including the Easter break.  at 5pm today the government are making an announcement on schools.  if they do decide to close them I wonder why the government have kept this from us?  perhaps to stop panic or for economic reasons?
		
Click to expand...

I reckon if they'd announced a day they'd close em. Many woukd have simply taken them out early or asked why Friday is better than any other day.


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## chellie (Mar 18, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I reckon if they'd announced a day they'd close em. Many woukd have simply taken them out early or asked why Friday is better than any other day.
		
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Lots have been taken out of school early around here judging by lack of school time traffic.


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## JamesR (Mar 18, 2020)

chellie said:



			Lots have been taken out of school early around here judging by lack of school time traffic.
		
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The schools around me have been leaving a different year group at home each day (except for yr 11, who have GCSE's coming up)


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## Robster59 (Mar 18, 2020)

Our customer base is different in that the customers will still require our product (liquid nitrogen and equipent for cryopreservation) all the time. If they don't get it then they will potentially lose irreplaceable samples. So even if hospitals, universities, fertility clinics, research organisations, etc. close or reduce hours, the requirement is still there. There's a lot of work being done in the background to ensure that we don't let them down.
I'm getting emails and phone calls now on a regular basis from concerned customers.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate’s lad on his way back to Arbroath from Norway after they’ve cut that short, said the lad’s are totally pissed off and would rather stay in Norway.

Click to expand...

Always looked forward to that one when I was in AMF Recce.


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate’s lad on his way back to Arbroath from Norway after they’ve cut that short, said the lad’s are totally pissed off and would rather stay in Norway.

Click to expand...

Arbroath aye, up at RM Condor then is he. Don't blame them wanting to stay in Norway, I loved going on exercise there even the ice diving was fun after your first go.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I reckon if they'd announced a day they'd close em. Many woukd have simply taken them out early or asked why Friday is better than any other day.
		
Click to expand...

Also worth considering the pressure and in some way sacrifices heads, teachers and schools are making.  Advice is to socially isolate yet they are told they have to go into school. It is a national talking point with everyone having an opinion on if they should close or not and they are stuck in the middle, doing what they always do and working for the good of society.


----------



## DanFST (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			People reporting a large convoy of CR2's on the motorway,  cant be large, we dont have a large number. So I presume we are deploying tanks across the country.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing stops people buying too much loo roll more than depleted uranium.

Also the "army" in Clapham are just cadets going to the TA base from the common.

Everyone is talking rubbish to scaremonger and farm likes.


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

chellie said:



			Lots have been taken out of school early around here judging by lack of school time traffic.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah I noticed when picking my kids up that the playground wasn’t as busy. people still parking like idiots though.


Hacker Khan said:



			Also worth considering the pressure and in some way sacrifices heads, teachers and schools are making.  Advice is to socially isolate yet they are told they have to go into school. It is a national talking point with everyone having an opinion on if they should close or not and they are stuck in the middle, doing what they always do and working for the good of society.
		
Click to expand...

‘Yeah, most of the teachers are troopers. 
A local school here had to rearrange classes and sent all year 7s home as of yesterday due to 7 teachers trying to force the schools hand and all simultaneously self isolating.

id have thought the schools would have sent home the oldest kids first as they can fend for themselves. Now parents are having to take leave even earlier.


----------



## arnieboy (Mar 18, 2020)

Mother in law passed away a few days ago, funeral planned for first week of April. Crematorium and hotel for the wake both booked, I wonder if that will be the case in a couple of weeks time.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

If you want to hear idiot speak, listen to Trumps news broadcast of BBC. 

The hospital ships are being deployed, they a very big white things with red crosses on them

Developing a self swob, this is a swob that you can use yourself.

Mans a complete fruitcake


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Turns out the government do need the BBC after all.  Funny old world 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240295134299926531


----------



## User20204 (Mar 18, 2020)

arnieboy said:



			Mother in law passed away a few days ago, funeral planned for first week of April. Crematorium and hotel for the wake both booked, I wonder if that will be the case in a couple of weeks time.
		
Click to expand...

The current advice on funerals is a few to attend if possible, suspect that may change.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Turns out the government do need the BBC after all.  Funny old world 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240295134299926531

Click to expand...

Or if you prefer rant mode you can equally watch ITV GMT


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you want to hear idiot speak, listen to Trumps news broadcast of BBC.

The hospital ships are being deployed, they a very big white things with red crosses on them

Developing a self swob, this is a swob that you can use yourself.

Mans a complete fruitcake
		
Click to expand...

Turns out elections can have life or death consequences depending who you pick.  Find it hard to believe that people, especially his supporters, will look on Trump in the same way after this.  But never underestimate the power of stupid.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Or if you prefer rant mode* you can equally watch ITV GMT*

Click to expand...

Cold cold day in hell and all that.....


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Cold cold day in hell and all that.....
		
Click to expand...

Piers Morgan on permanent send on twitter, the guy has completely lost it.


----------



## bobmac (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Or if you prefer rant mode you can equally watch ITV GMT
		
Click to expand...

Or you can save yourself the bother and watch neither


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Where's @Tashyboy Mexico moving to stage 2, best run for the hills.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



*Piers Morgan* on permanent send on twitter, *the guy has completely lost it.*

Click to expand...

Thought you'd know better, you've got to have it in the first place if you're going to lose it.


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			My neighbour was saying Currys (and I guess other retailers) are having a run on people buying second freezers 

Click to expand...

Some sold out of stock over here


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Were safe, cadets setting up anti hording patrols


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Were safe, cadets setting up anti hording patrols
View attachment 29408

Click to expand...

Nope, not true because the army aren’t being mobilised. We were told as much above. Photo evidence is no good here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

London maybe about to go into lockdown?


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Nope, not true because the army aren’t being mobilised. We were told as much above. Photo evidence is no good here.
		
Click to expand...

There cadets, not members of the army


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## Kellfire (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There cadets, not members of the army
		
Click to expand...

Just you wait. It’ll be Dad’s Army before long. Aggggggh.


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Were safe, cadets setting up anti hording patrols
View attachment 29408

Click to expand...

Sadly seem some mongs on Facebook claiming this is the Army taking charge of the streets. People will only see what they want to see instead of what is actually happening


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2020)

This afternoon's exercise; a 30 min FaceTime Hatha yoga session. It was … different... and very, very relaxing. Each day since lockdown I've looked for something new and/or different. The alternative is to just go stir crazy.


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## Foxholer (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Were safe, cadets setting up anti hording patrols...
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



*There* cadets, not members of the army
		
Click to expand...

So *they're* a horde (of cadets) trying to prevent a horde of hoarders!
Why don't they (shops etc) simply erect a hoarding stating 'No Hoarding!'!

Doncha jus luv dodgy English speling!


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## Dando (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sadly seem some mongs on Facebook claiming this is the Army taking charge of the streets. People will only see what they want to see instead of what is actually happening
		
Click to expand...

But if it’s on the internet it must be true


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## Italian outcast (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There cadets, not members of the army
		
Click to expand...

This is what happens when you shut down golf -  without the guidance of their golfer overlords - caddies start roaming about aimlessly looking for owt to do


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sadly seem some mongs on Facebook claiming this is the Army taking charge of the streets. People will only see what they want to see instead of what is actually happening
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we could find a way of fining such lunatics for 'deliberate public deception' - say 10 grand a pop. Hopefully these platforms might 'police' the content better as with terrorism. Of course the international nature of this stuff makes it hugely problematic.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So *they're* a horde (of cadets) trying to prevent a horde of hoarders!
Why don't they (shops etc) simply erect a hoarding stating 'No Hoarding!'!

Doncha jus luv dodgy English speling!

Click to expand...

Never effected my ability to get the job done or draw my wages


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

NavigationMain Content






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*Golf Clubs & Golfers (COVID-19) Updates*
Last guidance update: Wednesday 18 March, 16:00

*Golf clubs and golfers must take appropriate steps to make sure they minimise the risk of infection from the COVID-19 virus.*
In general, golf is a healthy pursuit played in the open air.
The risk to players, who are of good health and not classed in a vulnerable age category, is smaller than most other sports provided the expert advice is followed.
The vast majority of golfers can continue to play at your facility.
However, golf facilities must be mindful of the older age profile of their membership and understand that it is only prudent to implement sensible policies to limit the potential spread of any outbreak.
England Golf has taken the decision to postpone its championship events until 7 June.
Our championships involve large numbers of people travelling and working together to run a successful event, and we consider it impossible to ensure the safety and welfare of all concerned. Golf clubs should consider if it is appropriate to take a similar stance for Open competitions on the basis of government advice on travel and other social restrictions.
Clubs should also carefully consider if it is possible and appropriate for them to run club competitions and matches in line with current government guidance on social gathering and social distancing.
These are unprecedented and extremely tough times for golf, but we would ask all our clubs and golfers to adopt a common-sense approach.
*General advice:*

Indoor, social aspects of golf club life should be curtailed based on expert advice on social gatherings
Golfers suffering from or showing symptoms of the COVID-19 infection must self-isolate and stay away from their golf club. The length of time spent in self-isolation should be in line with government recommendations
Vulnerable groups or those with underlying health issues should heed government advice to self-isolate
Golf clubs should prominently display public health posters available via the NHS England website in all washrooms and at entrances to the course and clubhouse. These posters should act as a reminder to follow the 20-second handwashing techniques recommended by Public Health England.
Golf clubs should consider installing extra hand sanitizers around their facility, on or near teeing areas and practice areas
To minimise social contact in locker rooms golfers should be allowed to change shoes in the car park
Golf club staff and volunteers – while taking precautions for their own health such as wearing protective gloves – should carry out regular cleaning of surfaces and door handles used by patrons. Where possible doors should be left ajar
Cash transactions should be avoided and card payments encouraged
Clubs may wish to offer a takeaway service for food to minimise the need for social contact
On the course, golfers should try to maintain a minimum distance of two metres between themselves and playing partners. Take care to adhere to this on teeing grounds and greens
Golfers should consider playing in smaller groupings – ie two balls – to adhere with social distancing
Clubs should consider increased spacing between tee times to prevent the bunching of groups
Golfers should leave the flagstick in the hole at all times and clubs should remove rakes from the course to limit the risk of infection spreading from hand to hand.
Buggies should be for solo use only and cleaned after every outing. Golfers should only use their own trolley and clean it after every round
Common courtesies – handshakes and embraces in accordance with the accepted etiquette of the game – are to be avoided. Offering a thumbs up or some other form of friendly greeting should be used as an alternative
Golf clubs should desist from holding group coaching sessions. Careful consideration should be given to individual coaching based on expert advice on social distancing
Greenkeepers should remove pins from practice putting greens
A review of how practice balls are dispensed and cleaned is also recommended
 
The GCMA, PGA, BIGGA and R&A have issued golf industry guidelines to help clubs make contingency plans for their business.
This document details how best to prepare for a health emergency and possible staffing shortages.
Golf Industry Guidelines
The Sport and Recreation Alliance have also published guidelines for good governance. Access this below:
Sport and Recreation Alliance Guidelines
England Golf’s Club Support Officer network is on hand to help clubs with support and advice at this time.
Find your Club Support Officer
The UK government has recently announced financial relief plans to help small businesses. When more details become available we will update accordingly and signpost to online links.
This remains a fluid situation and advice and guidance to clubs may change according to government and expert advice.


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sadly seem some mongs on Facebook claiming this is the Army taking charge of the streets. People will only see what they want to see instead of what is actually happening
		
Click to expand...

Id say the army will be more likely brought in to help the NHS, and supermarkets get key things into place 

That's just my guess tho


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2020)

The latest numbers from Spain. Madrid, like Lombardy, is a hotspot. Huge numbers of Madridians left Madrid on Friday and Saturday, in the hope of escaping. They've not had the best of welcomes around the country. For all the (justified) brickbats thrown at the idiot holidaymakers there's been some genuine anger directed to those from Madrid that have arrived here. The Policia have had to step in a couple of times as violence against them has erupted. If an exodus is experienced in the UK I'd like to think the Police there will be just as aggressive in dealing with it.


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Id say the army will be more likely brought in to help the NHS, and supermarkets get key things into place

That's just my guess tho
		
Click to expand...

Quite possible, they may even mobilise the TA as a slightly softer Civilian appreciated move. But what we need to avoid is people going overboard and jumping to conclusions like the pictures in question and only discuss facts as we're told them.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2020)

Spanish govt waives all due taxes and national insurances payments for businesses that have to close during the lockdown


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Quite possible, they may even mobilise the TA as a slightly softer Civilian appreciated move. But what we need to avoid is people going overboard and jumping to conclusions like the pictures in question and only discuss facts as we're told them.
		
Click to expand...

TA, your going to get in trouble 🤣🤣 one army yer know.


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			TA, your going to get in trouble 🤣🤣 one army year know.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry i was meant to write SAS, Saturdays and Sundays😂

Get the RM in anyway proper soldiers 😉


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Quite possible, they may even mobilise the TA as a slightly softer Civilian appreciated move. But what we need to avoid is people going overboard and jumping to conclusions like the pictures in question and only discuss facts as we're told them.
		
Click to expand...

Stop it, the lovers of FB and other social media sites will have nothing to report.


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Stop it, the lovers of FB and other social media sites will have nothing to report.
		
Click to expand...

Very true they're loving it at moment its like livestream Jeremy Kyle


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

12 Armd Bde might be getting ready for a jolly


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

I now have a high level of respect and admiration for Gary Neville and Roman Abramovich.  God these are weird times.....


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I now have a high level of respect and admiration for Gary Neville and Roman Abramovich.  God these are weird times.....
		
Click to expand...

Along with Cristiano Ronaldo to opening his hotels as hospitals and paying the Drs wages himself.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Along with Cristiano Ronaldo to opening his hotels as hospitals and paying the Drs wages himself.
		
Click to expand...

Mate, you’ve got to stop believing everything you read on FBook. 
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...uarantine-treatment-centres-a9405736.html?amp


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## williamalex1 (Mar 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Just you wait. It’ll be Dad’s Army before long. Aggggggh.
		
Click to expand...

No chance, they're not allowed out .


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, you’ve got to stop believing everything you read on FBook. 
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...uarantine-treatment-centres-a9405736.html?amp

Click to expand...

To be fair I didn't see that on Facebook the Mrs told me😂
But hey we all have to come across as a knob sometimes just for balance 😂


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Along with Cristiano Ronaldo to opening his hotels as hospitals and paying the Drs wages himself.
		
Click to expand...

I saw on Twitter that story wasn't true. But then again, the first I saw of that story was also on Twitter so who knows if it's true or not.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			To be fair I didn't see that on Facebook the Mrs told me😂
But hey we all have to come across as a knob sometimes just for balance 😂
		
Click to expand...

Certainly do mate, been there, done that! 😂😂


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Certainly do mate, been there, done that! 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Helps keep us grounded by showing us up as knobheads sometimes.. Also shows some of us are happy to take the ribbing and accepting when we're wrong unlike some 😂😉


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 18, 2020)

I can't even go to the club for a sandwich and cup of coffee, now--never mind golf.


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## larmen (Mar 18, 2020)

London people, if you are not commuting don't forget you can cancel your travel card for a refund of the remaining value!

I bought a 1-6 annual one last week and cancelled it today. Should get a healthy refund when not travelling for 12 weeks and buy a new one at that point. Otherwise I would be wasting 3 month while sitting in a chair at home.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Helps keep us grounded by showing us up as knobheads sometimes.. Also shows some of us are happy to take the ribbing and accepting when we're wrong unlike some 😂😉
		
Click to expand...

Gives the regulars an hour off 🧐🧐😜


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## AmandaJR (Mar 18, 2020)

No exam invigilating for me. I don't do it for the money but I'm sure some do, and the normal exam period is 10 weeks so a fair amount of lost earnings.

Had a little power nap this afternoon and woke feeling rough. Would normally just pass that off but now wondering if I've got it!


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## Wolf (Mar 18, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			Gives the regulars an hour off 🧐🧐😜
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂 Not sure some can last the hour maybe 15mins...


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2020)

Lots of buzzing 17 and 18 year olds right now. No exams. Probably going to get predicted grades to get into university. Bummer for those who gambled everything on cramming at the last minute but my daughter is bouncing as she is comfortably home and hosed.

She is now trying to get her head around what she can do for the next 6 months.


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## Dando (Mar 18, 2020)

larmen said:



			London people, if you are not commuting don't forget you can cancel your travel card for a refund of the remaining value!

I bought a 1-6 annual one last week and cancelled it today. Should get a healthy refund when not travelling for 12 weeks and buy a new one at that point. Otherwise I would be wasting 3 month while sitting in a chair at home.
		
Click to expand...

I guess you’ve not Encountered southeastern. They’d pick a penny out of a dog turd!
I renewed my annual ticket 2 weeks ago and not expecting them to give me a penny back


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Lots of buzzing 17 and 18 year olds right now. No exams. Probably going to get predicted grades to get into university. Bummer for those who gambled everything on cramming at the last minute but my daughter is bouncing as she is comfortably home and hosed.

She is now trying to get her head around what she can do for the next 6 months.
		
Click to expand...

My daughter is gutted, her mock a levels were ok but she expected better. The private tutors we've paid for and hour of upon hour of extra work she's put in over the last few months look to be wasted if what you say is true.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			No exam invigilating for me. I don't do it for the money but I'm sure some do, and the normal exam period is 10 weeks so a fair amount of lost earnings.

Had a little power nap this afternoon and woke feeling rough. Would normally just pass that off but now wondering if I've got it!
		
Click to expand...

Relax. You obviously got the process wrong. It's not 'work, nap an hour and work' !

It should be 'Nap, work for an hour, then nap' - keep practising, you'll get it right.


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## Slime (Mar 18, 2020)

Mrs Slime being laid off work today .......................... until further notice!


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2020)

Slime said:



			Mrs Slime being laid off work today .......................... until further notice!
		
Click to expand...

Nightmare, hope it all works out ok mate.


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## larmen (Mar 18, 2020)

Dando said:



			I guess you’ve not Encountered southeastern. They’d pick a penny out of a dog turd!
I renewed my annual ticket 2 weeks ago and not expecting them to give me a penny back
		
Click to expand...

no, straight TZL Oyster card for me. I change trains in Zone 1 from southwest to southern and there are no deals available so I had to bite the bullet and buy a full annual card.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Very true they're loving it at moment its like livestream Jeremy Kyle
		
Click to expand...

Top one so far,

Over the last week we have had several convoys of prefabricated buildings heading up the link road to Barnstaple. Just seen on FB that they are to go into Chivnor to build a temp morgue.

No ---- it's the new school that's being built a mile down the road from me.


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## Robster59 (Mar 18, 2020)

On a positive note, they have cancelled the Eurovision Song Contest 🤗


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## harpo_72 (Mar 18, 2020)

School closed, understandable.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			London maybe about to go into lockdown?
		
Click to expand...

More fake news, scare mongering and over reaction. 

There will be restrictions to come I imagine in the next few weeks and I think public transport will be reduced further and maybe even more pressure to restrict pub visiting etc but if the model the government is following is correct, we'll still several weeks behind Italy and so the impact and therefore restrictions isn't here yet. If they do come I don;'t think London will be singled out


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

The gift that just keeps giving.


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



 The gift that just keeps giving. 

Click to expand...

Brilliant isn't it. London, THE transport hub of the UK. Perfect location to spread the virus from, and currently where the highest density of confirmed cases are, and that won't be locked down when the rest of the country is... some people aren't safe to be let out without their carer.


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## User20204 (Mar 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			when the rest of the country is...
		
Click to expand...

I've clearly missed some onside info or an inside joke, care to share ?


----------



## bluewolf (Mar 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			More fake news, scare mongering and over reaction.

There will be restrictions to come I imagine in the next few weeks and I think public transport will be reduced further and maybe even more pressure to restrict pub visiting etc but if the model the government is following is correct, we'll still several weeks behind Italy and so the impact and therefore restrictions isn't here yet. If they do come I don;'t think London will be singled out
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Martin, but it genuinely concerns me that you work in a hospital. Seriously? Get back in the real world at some point soon please.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			My daughter is gutted, her mock a levels were ok but she expected better. The private tutors we've paid for and hour of upon hour of extra work she's put in over the last few months look to be wasted if what you say is true.
		
Click to expand...

Not 100% but they have said there will be no exams this year and further education etc will not be held back. All the comments are pointing towards predicted grades, I don't see how else they can do it. The detail seems to be teachers predictions based on mocks, work over time, ie they have to be able to back up the prediction not just give inflated marks. 

If your daughters work has improved since the mocks then that gives her a better chance of a higher prediction. The key question is not necessarily how well could she have done but whether the prediction will get her where she needs to get to? She just needs enough to get her into the university she wants to go to, the apprenticeship she wants to do etc. Hopefully it works out okay for her, and you 👍. Don't forget, if she wants to go to university it is a buyer's market and being a grade or two under the offer figure doesn't mean the end of the story.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 18, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry Martin, but it genuinely concerns me that you work in a hospital. Seriously? Get back in the real world at some point soon please.
		
Click to expand...

Trust me, seen enough of the real world and the effect of the virus already. Also seen the preparations to cope when the main virus epicentre hits and the limitations we're facing already


----------



## Andy (Mar 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Trust me, seen enough of the real world and the effect of the virus already. Also seen the preparations to cope when the main virus epicentre hits and the limitations we're facing already
		
Click to expand...

But you went to the boozer even though your in the vulnerable group 😂 😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 18, 2020)

Andy said:



			But you went to the boozer even though your in the vulnerable group 😂 😂
		
Click to expand...

And travelled on a train as I've no other way to get to work, sat in a works restaurant and used a cash machine. I've been in a shopping centre and a supermarket all of which could potentially be risky things to do


----------



## richart (Mar 18, 2020)

Found out a few days ago I am in a higher risk category from the Corona virus.  No, not because of my age. Been staying at home and the novelty is really wearing off. We do have the cleanest cars in the area, fully detailed and my daughter will have a nice surprise when she gets back from Thailand and sees her car.

Is it too early to start mowing the lawn ? Outside paintwork looks a bit shabby.


----------



## Andy (Mar 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And travelled on a train as I've no other way to get to work, sat in a works restaurant and used a cash machine. I've been in a shopping centre and a supermarket all of which could potentially be risky things to do
		
Click to expand...

Ye but why add extra chance to get infected? You harp on about the NHS, knowing this, that and everything but do the exact opposite.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

Ya know this heard imunity  thing BJ mentions .  I kinda understand the theory behind it .. you let infection run to certain extent to help or encourage a better future imunity .. with such a small % been tested, how do they know when time is right to act. .


----------



## larmen (Mar 18, 2020)

The Netherlands are going for heard immunity as well!


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

larmen said:



			The Netherlands are going for heard immunity as well!
		
Click to expand...

But how do u know when time is right when ur not testing people . Afaik its based on a certain % been let get the virus ( hopefuly young strong ppl who can get over it)  but without full testing how do u know when the % is reached


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Trust me, seen enough of the real world and the effect of the virus already. Also seen the preparations to cope when the main virus epicentre hits and the limitations we're facing already
		
Click to expand...

All that horrible real stuff, yet the advice you chose to share was the rubbish about gargling with warm salt or vinegar water.


----------



## larmen (Mar 18, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			But how do u know when time is right when ur not testing people . Afaik its based on a certain % been let get the virus ( hopefuly young strong ppl who can get over it)  but without full testing how do u know when the % is reached
		
Click to expand...

that’s my understanding, and because I am vulnerable I am hiding away for 12 weeks until you guys are immune. In theory.

What I don’t get is that if the UK is heard immune and tourism goes again, won’t there be enough I’ll cases being imported to make it all risky again?
Would a global strategy be better than separate local ones? It’s a small world after all ;-)


----------



## User20204 (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			yet the advice you chose to share was the rubbish about gargling with warm salt or vinegar water.

Click to expand...

Eh, what ? Musta missed that, he's having a giraffe surely.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			But how do u know when time is right when ur not testing people . Afaik its based on a certain % been let get the virus ( hopefuly young strong ppl who can get over it)  but without full testing how do u know when the % is reached
		
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They are ramping up tests for the virus while starting antibody testing of survivors. That will give the data.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Be aware, the spelling cop could turn up at any moment and the herd will be culled


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## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And travelled on a train as I've no other way to get to work, sat in a works restaurant and used a cash machine. I've been in a shopping centre and a supermarket all of which could potentially be risky things to do
		
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Yes. But some of them are are out of necessity. 

The whole point of self isolation and social distancing is to limit opportunities to contract it 😂😂


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## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			Ya know this heard imunity  thing BJ mentions .  I kinda understand the theory behind it .. you let infection run to certain extent to help or encourage a better future imunity .. with such a small % been tested, how do they know when time is right to act. .
		
Click to expand...

I believe the key to it is the antibidies test they're trying to create. Effectively we can then test everyone and see who's had it already b


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Be aware, the spelling cop could turn up at any moment and the herd will be culled 

Click to expand...

I heard that...


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## Slime (Mar 18, 2020)

richart said:



			Found out a few days ago I am in a higher risk category from the Corona virus.  No, not because of my age. Been staying at home and the novelty is really wearing off. We do have the cleanest cars in the area, fully detailed and my daughter will have a nice surprise when she gets back from Thailand and sees her car.

*Is it too early to start mowing the lawn ?* Outside paintwork looks a bit shabby.

Click to expand...

Done mine a couple of times recently, and if you're really bored, you can get some awesome stripes using just a comb.


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## larmen (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Be aware, the spelling cop could turn up at any moment and the herd will be culled 

Click to expand...

Sorry.

But you know, if people attack my spelling that is just because they can’t attack the post with substance ;-)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Eh, what ? Musta missed that, he's having a giraffe surely.
		
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See post #952.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

larmen said:



			Sorry.

But you know, if people attack my spelling that is just because they can’t attack the post with substance ;-)
		
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You have me mistaken for the real spelling cop, he's already had me. Apologies if you thought I was having a go at you, I wasn't.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			They are ramping up tests for the virus while starting antibody testing of survivors. That will give the data.
		
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 but what happens as results come in u have already surpassed the herd immunity % .. very risky approach even if u had been testing from week 1 r 2


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## IainP (Mar 18, 2020)

There were some posts about the media reporting earlier. I believe this is a serious situation. Along with the popular stats, wouldn't it be useful to have a sense of what the average mortality rates are across the counties to better sense how this situation is adding to it? Maybe some better researched forummer knows this.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

So I have another observation, maybe trivial or overthinking etc, but, lots of posts about the risks of swapping scorecards etc on the course, yet Dominoes, MacDonalds and lots of other places that use cardboard are offering drive thru and delivery services.

Is there a risk of passing it on via cardboard/packaging etc?


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So I have another observation, maybe trivial or overthinking etc, but, lots of posts about the risks of swapping scorecards etc on the course, yet Dominoes, MacDonalds and lots of other places that use cardboard are offering drive thru and delivery services.

Is there a risk of passing it on via cardboard/packaging etc?
		
Click to expand...

If you eat that rubbish, the virus is the least of your worries


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## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you eat that rubbish, the virus is the least of your worries 

Click to expand...

U might aswell eat it or anything u want for all we know a virus could come along and wipe us all out 🧐😜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you eat that rubbish, the virus is the least of your worries 

Click to expand...

That’s not the point, could of put money on you or wolf answering with that. 

Just one of the confusing messages coming out though!
It’s ok supposedly protecting the people, but they need facts, not pointless myths.

Lots of other things come in cardboard, ie Amazon parcels.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			U might aswell eat it or anything u want for all we know a virus could come along and wipe us all out 🧐😜
		
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Nastier things than that have tried. Whatever happens, happens. I will do what ever I can to discourage it.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s not the point, could of put money on you or wolf answering with that. 

Just one of the confusing messages coming out though!
It’s ok supposedly protecting the people, but they need facts, not pointless myths.

Lots of other things come in cardboard, ie Amazon parcels.
		
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@Wolf is a Royal, half hour behind everyone else


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## Imurg (Mar 18, 2020)

I heard a medical person of some description on the radio saying that the virus can live on shiny surfaces for as much as 72 hours but cant stay alive on softer substances like clothes or cardboard for more than a few minutes..
Dont take that as gospel but that's what I heard the other day.


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## IainP (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s not the point, could of put money on you or wolf answering with that. 

Just one of the confusing messages coming out though!
It’s ok supposedly protecting the people, but they need facts, not pointless myths.

Lots of other things come in cardboard, ie Amazon parcels.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317150116.htm


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## Fish (Mar 18, 2020)

I’ve been around for many a year

Smoked cigarettes and drank many a beer

I’ve been crapped on, shot at and worked through the night

Done menial things and been in a fight

I’ve painted grass green and painted coal black

I’ve been to heaven and hell and clawed my way back.

I’ve been ordered around on the parade square

Learned from my peers just how to swear

Got letters from home including "Dear John”

So clearly for me, she wasn’t the one.

I’ve slept in the snow and eaten in rain

If it wasn’t for my health I’d do it again.

Ive slept in hotels and dossed down in digs

In fact many a place, not fit for pigs.

I’ve eaten many a meal that has often gone cold

And eaten slices of bread covered in mould

I’ve eaten with hands covered in grease and oil

Finger nails dirty from digging in soil.

I’ve used outside toilets just a hole in the ground

Then wiped my hands in a large leaf I found.

I’ve worn the same clothes day after day, hour after hour

Unable to wash, unable to shower.

I’ve slept in a room with men coughing sneezing

And farting like troopers and moaning and wheezing.

So tell me again, why all the fuss

Over this thing called the corona virus

I don’t give a monkeys, I just assume

As an ex Soldier, I think I’m immune.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 18, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			Ya know this heard imunity  thing BJ mentions .  I kinda understand the theory behind it .. you let infection run to certain extent to help or encourage a better future imunity .. with such a small % been tested, how do they know when time is right to act. .
		
Click to expand...

We have moved on from that as a strategy (and to be honest it was never really the main strategy) as new calculations this week worked out that it would kill 260,000 people.  So we are now going for more isolation over a longer period that they hope will reduce the deaths to 'only' 20,000. Although from a few posts on here and social media it may well be more based on some people's attitude to the concept of social distancing.


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## larmen (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You have me mistaken for the real spelling cop, he's already had me. Apologies if you thought I was having a go at you, I wasn't.
		
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I didn't feel you had a go at me. It's more a general statement, if one can't attach the message for it's content find something else wrong with it.


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## Imurg (Mar 18, 2020)

IainP said:



https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317150116.htm

Click to expand...

I was half right then....


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## Imurg (Mar 18, 2020)

All driving test centres are closed as of now for 2 days with further guidance  to follow - which means they'll be closed for the foreseeable future....


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## IainP (Mar 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I was half right then....

Click to expand...

To be fair , there are probably so many variables at play outside of the laboratory


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## bladeplayer (Mar 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			We have moved on from that as a strategy (and to be honest it was never really the main strategy) as new calculations this week worked out that it would kill 260,000 people.  So we are now going for more isolation over a longer period that they hope will reduce the deaths to 'only' 20,000. Although from a few posts on here and social media it may well be more based on some people's attitude to the concept of social distancing.
		
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I dont understand that tho . Its a complete turn around . He was told at start from WHO this was not way to go it was too risky .  but wouldnt listen. Alot of similarities with trumps attitude .

Lòoking a some clips been retweeted on social media it stil seems a good few not taking it serious enough . 

Teenagers over here treating time off like an ordinary school holiday despite been told not to .


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 18, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I believe the key to it is the *antibidies *test they're trying to create. Effectively we can then test everyone and see who's had it already b
		
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I think that's my favourite auto-correct/spelling mistake ever. A virus like Covid-19 which kills a lot of old people really is anti-biddies.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that's my favourite auto-correct/spelling mistake ever. A virus like Covid-19 which kills a lot of old people really is anti-biddies. 

Click to expand...

Damn my phone!!!!


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## Wabinez (Mar 18, 2020)

Prepare for lockdown from this weekend. Starting at London, and then moving outwards across the country.

those that are still playing golf....enjoy this weekend’s knock!


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## Papas1982 (Mar 18, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			Prepare for lockdown from this weekend. Starting at London, and then moving outwards across the country.

those that are still playing golf....enjoy this weekend’s knock!
		
Click to expand...

Last round for me before schools close and time off is with kids. 

Am intrigued about work if it is a lockdown.


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## IainP (Mar 18, 2020)

IainP said:



			There were some posts about the media reporting earlier. I believe this is a serious situation. Along with the popular stats, wouldn't it be useful to have a sense of what the average mortality rates are across the counties to better sense how this situation is adding to it? Maybe some better researched forummer knows this.
		
Click to expand...

Attempting to answer own question.
I think, for the UK, it averages out at around 1500 to 1600 per day.
Which seems high, but I guess when put against a population of millions.
It does make me think of unfortunate people related to these and how to deal with in the current climate.


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## pendodave (Mar 18, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Last round for me before schools close and time off is with kids. 

Am intrigued about work if it is a lockdown.
		
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Hobbit will know better than me, but even in countries (like Spain) in "lockdown", going to work is still an allowed activity.


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## pendodave (Mar 18, 2020)

IainP said:



			Attempting to answer own question.
I think, for the UK, it averages out at around 1500 to 1600 per day.
Which seems high, but I guess when put against a population of millions.
It does make me think of unfortunate people related to these and how to deal with in the current climate.
		
Click to expand...

That's about right, although (according to private eye) the numbers for Feb are down on the average, probably because of the handwashing. I don't think that this was a joke...


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## Stuart_C (Mar 18, 2020)

Massively work wise, had a few decent jobs cancelled for the next couple of weeks. Grim.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 18, 2020)

Guess I'm sort of lucky 12 hours double time last two days. 

From what I hear this is very much just the beginning which is slightly concerning.


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## larmen (Mar 18, 2020)

We just got an email from the nursery. Are we both key workers? I guess from Friday we have the little one at home.


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## IainP (Mar 18, 2020)

pendodave said:



			That's about right, although (according to private eye) the numbers for Feb are down on the average, probably because of the handwashing. I don't think that this was a joke...
		
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It's probably pretty complex,  for example loads fewer vehicles on the roads in March I imagine. Clearly the challenge with the virus is the particular symptoms and need for ventilators - with the belief that people could be saved if demand matches capacity.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Where's @Tashyboy Mexico moving to stage 2, best run for the hills.
		
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Sweet mother, stage 2 over here is tequila. 🤗


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## Hobbit (Mar 18, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Hobbit will know better than me, but even in countries (like Spain) in "lockdown", going to work is still an allowed activity.
		
Click to expand...

Permitted to travel to work, but only 1 in a car. Buses are running a vastly reduced service and the first 2 rows are taped off, as are all the aisle seats.

All bars, restaurants, sports facilities and all shops bar groceries and chemists are closed. 

Pretty much all businesses that could be open are closed. Whether that is the case in the factories, I don’t know. We don’t have any here.

As of midnight fines for Joe Public for non-compliance rise fro 600 to 1000.

A govt minister has said expect the lockdown to be extended. Borders will be closed for 30 days.

I may be visiting the local shop tomorrow, more likely Friday. For a few things. It will be... interesting. What you wear, what you do with what you wear when you get home. Areas of the shop you are allowed in. What docs you have to carry, inc the receipt on the way home. Rules on rules.

Madrid still suffering horrendously but Alicante region had its first zero day today!


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## williamalex1 (Mar 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s not the point, could of put money on you or wolf answering with that. 

Just one of the confusing messages coming out though!
It’s ok supposedly protecting the people, but they need facts, not pointless myths.

Lots of other things come in cardboard, ie Amazon parcels.
		
Click to expand...

I just cancelled my daily newspaper deliveries, and will  try to use contactless payments where possible to avoid touching any cash  [notes]


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 18, 2020)

Slime said:



			Mrs Slime being laid off work today .......................... until further notice!
		
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Sorry to hear that Slime.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you want to hear idiot speak, listen to Trumps news broadcast of BBC.

The hospital ships are being deployed, they a very big white things with red crosses on them

Developing a self swob, this is a swob that you can use yourself.

Mans a complete fruitcake
		
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‘It‘s the China Virus and I call it that as I like to be precise’

Honest to God the guy is despicable - as well as being a fruitcake.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 18, 2020)

Two bits of news from Mrs Hogie from her mum’s up north (well ch’field) one good, one bad

Good one is that her work has successfully started up home-based breast cancer telephone support helpline. Means she can WFH and so do her bit to take some load off the NHS.👍

Bad one is that her 90yr old mum just doesn‘t understand at all what’s going on.  She lives in a village and hasnt been to shop or into town for a couple of weeks - so everything is normal in her life.  She was really confused why my Mrs arrived at her door today with a load of books, jigsaws and DVDs.  She watches the news and glazes over baffled - watching what seems to be a film to her.  Trying to explain isn’t working - and she is a smart cookie and still pretty bright and sharp - but it’s not registering.🙁


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## williamalex1 (Mar 18, 2020)

Seemingly we have the Army setting up hospital tents in the nearby Strathclyde Country Park


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## Slab (Mar 19, 2020)

First cases here now (3) and the Gov have moved swiftly to shut airport/ports/schools etc with immediate effect (entry was already pretty restricted & 2 of the 3 were in quarantine)
Can't say fairer than that for a response


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Permitted to travel to work, but only 1 in a car. Buses are running a vastly reduced service and the first 2 rows are taped off, as are all the aisle seats.

All bars, restaurants, sports facilities and all shops bar groceries and chemists are closed. 

Pretty much all businesses that could be open are closed. Whether that is the case in the factories, I don’t know. We don’t have any here.

As of midnight fines for Joe Public for non-compliance rise fro 600 to 1000.

A govt minister has said expect the lockdown to be extended. Borders will be closed for 30 days.

I may be visiting the local shop tomorrow, more likely Friday. For a few things. It will be... interesting. What you wear, what you do with what you wear when you get home. Areas of the shop you are allowed in. What docs you have to carry, inc the receipt on the way home. Rules on rules.

Madrid still suffering horrendously but Alicante region had its first zero day today!
		
Click to expand...

Wow only 1 per car? I mean makes sense but just must remember I can't give My mate a life in if this happens here 

Question re restaurants, are the take away side of yours open? I'd say them and delivery drivers for home delivery of shopping are close to becoming key workers


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd say them and delivery drivers for home delivery of shopping are close to becoming key workers
		
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I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society. 
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society.
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....
		
Click to expand...

Well said. If one good thing comes out of this whole %%%% show it could be that we re calibrate our values and indeed who and what is valued.  The markets have proven unable to cope but human spirit is, in the most, shining through and people are (mostly) coming together to get through this.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society. 
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....
		
Click to expand...

This will 100% be the case. however I'd argue a lot of people Deem them key workers but they are under valued by powers that be.

We know that we on LUL will be key workers in this and the network is going to run a reduced service to make sure NHS workers etc can get to work.

It's going to be very tough times ahead for all

I hope they sort the financial side for those not protected. That is something they can sort and control easily. the virus needs containing and beating but it's a long 'battle' protect people's way of life (housing , jobs etc) so they have a life to return to in 6-12 months when this is hopefully all a thing of the past


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## Jacko_G (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society.
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....
		
Click to expand...

Problem is a majority of them won't be willing to open their eyes. They'll still talk down to them and turn up their noses thinking they're superior.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Wow only 1 per car? I mean makes sense but just must remember I can't give My mate a life in if this happens here

Question re restaurants, are the take away side of yours open? I'd say them and delivery drivers for home delivery of shopping are close to becoming key workers
		
Click to expand...

Not permitted to go to a take away But they can run a delivery service. Some restaurants are doing delivery.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society.
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....
		
Click to expand...

Yep and alot of materalistic people about to find out whats realy important


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not permitted to go to a take away But they can run a delivery service. Some restaurants are doing delivery.
		
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We got a take away last night. It was a bit odd the guy none of his normal hand shake at the door , understandable completely

Wasn't sure if to tip as most have requested card payments to reduce handling of cash


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

IainP said:



			Attempting to answer own question.
I think, for the UK, it averages out at around 1500 to 1600 per day.
Which seems high, but I guess when put against a population of millions.
It does make me think of unfortunate people related to these and how to deal with in the current climate.
		
Click to expand...

And we don’t really sense that number other than when it’s personal as there are about 2000 births a day. Balances out not too bad.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society.
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....
		
Click to expand...

Real managers realise this and the primary objective is to maintain these key people. But somewhere down the line it has become a judgement and manipulation exercise.. if this virus makes people realise this then that is positive


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 19, 2020)

We've now opened up additional bays in preparation. No PPE gowns, no proper face masks and no tornado mask for those not fit masked protected or failed the fit test for whatever reason. Basically no protective gear for any nursing staff. All on order apparently and backed up. What happened to the government stockpile?

Also we don't have sufficient ventilators to cover the beds we now have (we all knew this was the case). And to top things off we seem to be using one of the isolation rooms to treat someone that may be wardable and showing no signs of infection and not even being treated for an infectious type of illness


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

Club has implemented online tee booking for casual golf so that we don’t congregate.  Our sat am roll up has our WhatsApp group set up now (30+ strong). Club has reserved our normal tee off times for us.  We let group know if we want to play day or two in advance.  WhatsApp organisers do the draw for fours and populate the booking System accordingly.  Means we can see when we are off and turn up jit. We will just have to head off when we are done...but at least - for the time being - we’ve got golf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We've now opened up additional bays in preparation. No PPE gowns, no proper face masks and no tornado mask for those not fit masked protected or failed the fit test for whatever reason. Basically no protective gear for any nursing staff. All on order apparently and backed up. What happened to the government stockpile?

Also we don't have sufficient ventilators to cover the beds we now have (we all knew this was the case). And to top things off we seem to be using one of the isolation rooms to treat someone that may be wardable and showing no signs of infection and not even being treated for an infectious type of illness
		
Click to expand...

Not much more can really be said about the difficult (I hesitate to use perilous) situation we face.  Wishing you and all your colleagues in the service well and strength to cope. GB.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 19, 2020)

We (I) have set up an whatsapp group for our Saturday roll up (most also play the separately run Sunday one anyway) and it's roll ups only even for competitions. I am asking people to register their intent to play by 10.00pm on Friday (for Saturday) and I'll do a draw into fours and publish it and what order we're going out in. I am sure there will be drop outs (and others turning up on spec) but hopefully the core of the work can be done without too much mingling. All rocking up in the comp at 7.30 at the moment for the competition and think we'll just hive off into 4's on a as and when basis so can see it working with some common sense


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## Smiffy (Mar 19, 2020)

I've got a freezer full of boilies so I think I'll be okay for a few weeks........


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## hovis (Mar 19, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			I've got a freezer full of boilies so I think I'll be okay for a few weeks........
		
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I've got 30kg in my freezer.  the wife is going nutts.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2020)

There are rumours that this year's Where's Wally book is going to be a lot easier than normal.....


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as *“unskilled” by some elements of society.*
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....
		
Click to expand...

I have noticed that she has been conspicuous by her absence recently. Hopefully she will be consigned to the same place Rees-Mogg resides in terms of public interaction.  Also weird how it is much more reassuring to see experts in press conferences talking sense as opposed to opportunist politicians spouting pre-prepared party approved politician speak (for me the jury is still out on Bojo but at least he seems to be adapting to the situation well and has taken the severity of this on board a lot better than say Trump who has been exposed horribly and still seems to think he is campaigning to his voters). Let's hope the government realise that experts are also useful not just in times of global crisis, and take that on board.


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## Foxholer (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Never *effected* my ability to get the job done or draw my wages
		
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Not certain whether that was deliberate or not. Either way...


----------



## 2blue (Mar 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I have noticed that she has been conspicuous by her absence recently. Hopefully she will be consigned to the same place Rees-Mogg resides in terms of public interaction.  Also weird how it is much more reassuring to see experts in press conferences talking sense as opposed to opportunist politicians spouting pre-prepared party approved politician speak (for me the jury is still out on Bojo but at least* he seems to be adapting to the situation well* and has taken the severity of this on board a lot better than say Trump who has been exposed horribly and still seems to think he is campaigning to his voters). Let's hope the government realise that experts are also useful not just in times of global crisis, and take that on board.
		
Click to expand...

Yes....  but I can't help but remembering how good he was at that during Brexit......  he'll always be a really, really dodgy 2nd hand car salesman..... leopards don't change their spots


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## Papas1982 (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society.
This is going to be a massive wake up call for anyone willing to open their eyes and see what is happening around them.....
		
Click to expand...

I can see where you’re coming from in regards to their importance, imo the term “unskilled” is still somewhat valid Though. It doesn’t make them less important, but literally anyone can be taught how to stack a shelf. Let’s be honest, nobody really aspires for that career choice and I don’t think this pandemic will change that. 

Doctors, nurses, emergency services etc. They should Certainly be paid better as they are skilled. But from an economical POV if we suddenly said that shop staff were misled jobs and paid them let’s say £20 an hour whole business models would crumble.


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## DanFST (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think we’re about to discover who the real “Key workers” actually are. And I’d be willing to bet that most of them are at the lower end of the pay scale and would have recently been referred to as “unskilled” by some elements of society.
		
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They are objectively low skilled. 

However one small cog in a clock stop turning, the clock is broken.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I can see where you’re coming from in regards to their importance, imo the term “unskilled” is still somewhat valid Though. It doesn’t make them less important, but literally anyone can be taught how to stack a shelf. Let’s be honest, nobody really aspires for that career choice and I don’t think this pandemic will change that.

Doctors, nurses, emergency services etc. They should Certainly be paid better as they are skilled. But from an economical POV if we suddenly said that shop staff were misled jobs and paid them let’s say £20 an hour whole business models would crumble.
		
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And that is exactly what is wrong with the country, people still can't appreciate what some are doing to assist others. Maybe Tesco and Asda should be paying £20 an hour and let these people have a better quality of life, maybe they should decide £100 billion profit is a bit greedy, maybe they should be paying a fair price to farmers etc. Business models should adapt not crumble. 

Emergency service workers have never been appreciated in this country and never will be. Pay is absolutely dire for a job that is proven to curtail and shorten life expectancy.


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## Russ_D (Mar 19, 2020)

Wife is finding out today whether or not she is required to continue teaching. She is classed as a key worker but because she has two young children she is hoping the non parent teachers will be able to step in. Otherwise my kids will have to go to a random school for the forseable future "somewhere in the area" and they may even be split and sent to different schools.
Once again, still no clarity from the government or councils on this.


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			They are objectively low skilled.

However one small cog in a clock stop turning, the clock is broken.
		
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Some of the jobs may not require as much skill as other roles, but there is a habit of equating "unskilled" with "without value". That needs to change.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I can see where you’re coming from in regards to their importance, imo the term “unskilled” is still somewhat valid Though. It doesn’t make them less important, but literally anyone can be taught how to stack a shelf. Let’s be honest, nobody really aspires for that career choice and I don’t think this pandemic will change that.

Doctors, nurses, emergency services etc. They should Certainly be paid better as they are skilled. But from an economical POV if we suddenly said that *shop staff were misled jobs and paid them let’s say £20 an hour whole business models would crumble.*

Click to expand...



Whilst not wanting a further collapse in economic confidence, a realignment of a late stage capitalism (copyright Big Randy) system that relies increasingly on zero hours contracts and paying the minimum possible whilst the difference in pay to those at the top is ever increasing, may not be such a bad thing.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Wife is finding out today whether or not she is required to continue teaching. She is classed as a key worker but because she has two young children she is hoping the non parent teachers will be able to step in. Otherwise my kids will have to go to a random school for the forseable future "somewhere in the area" and *they may even be split and sent to different schools.
Once again, still no clarity from the government or councils on this*.
		
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Is there any indication whatsoever that they will be split up other than uninformed internet panic posting??? You can't expect schools or the government or councils or academies to know within a few hours of the announcement which schools will be open and how it will all work. As a chair of governors I can assure you that schools are working bloody hard in very trying circumstances to sort this out in what is a very rapidly moving situation. With the priority being to try and stop granny and grandad from dying.


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## Russ_D (Mar 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is there any indication whatsoever that they will be split up other than uninformed internet panic posting??? You can't expect schools or the government or councils or academies to know within a few hours of the announcement which schools will be open and how it will all work. As a chair of governors I can assure you that schools are working bloody hard in very trying circumstances to sort this out in what is a very rapidly moving situation. With the priority being to try and stop granny and grandad from dying.
		
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Erm, yes from my kids school. Also please note i used the word *"may" *in my post as it is a possiblilty, not confirmed and by no means "uninformed internet panic". I am fully aware how hard the schools are working, I'm married to a highly respected teacher at one ofthe leading grammar schools in the country and she works very hard. My kids are in pieces as they cant see their grandma or grandad for quite some time


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Some of the jobs may not require as much skill as other roles, but there is a habit of equating "unskilled" with "without value". That needs to change.
		
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I remember working back one evening. The cleaner came into the office. She apologised for having to come in. My reply, "I can't do my job if you don't do yours. You are important to everyone in this office." It was so sad to hear her say, "no one has ever told me I'm important before."

I've always believed that an organisation is like a clock. Take any cog out and it doesn't work properly. We're all equal...


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## Slime (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I remember working back one evening. The cleaner came into the office. She apologised for having to come in. My reply, "I can't do my job if you don't do yours. You are important to everyone in this office." It was so sad to hear her say, "no one has ever told me I'm important before."

I've always believed that an organisation is like a clock. Take any cog out and it doesn't work properly. *We're all equal...*

Click to expand...

Unfortunately we are not, not even close.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Whilst not wanting a further collapse in economic confidence, a realignment of a late stage capitalism (copyright Big Randy) system that relies increasingly on zero hours contracts and paying the minimum possible whilst the difference in pay to those at the top is ever increasing, may not be such a bad thing.
		
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Jacko_G said:



			And that is exactly what is wrong with the country, people still can't appreciate what some are doing to assist others. Maybe Tesco and Asda should be paying £20 an hour and let these people have a better quality of life, maybe they should decide £100 billion profit is a bit greedy, maybe they should be paying a fair price to farmers etc. Business models should adapt not crumble.

Emergency service workers have never been appreciated in this country and never will be. Pay is absolutely dire for a job that is proven to curtail and shorten life expectancy.
		
Click to expand...

I think sometimes emotion needs to be taken out of the scenario. i doubt before this anyone can honestly say they felt shelve stackers were vital or warranted a massive wage increase. Yes people were against zero hour contracts and minimum wage has been rising and even including a living wage, but You also need to think of the consequences of said wage increases on career aspirations.
£20 an hour equates to 40k a year. Realistically one of the main driving forces for career aspirations is how you think it’ll reward you. If you can get 40k to stack shelves. How many kids would settle for that Instead of looking for a carrier that would generally pay that (or less).

If a shelf stacker is worth 40k a nurse then becomes 100k.  That’s all well and good, how are said nurses paid. We‘d increase taxes and then all of a sudden the 40k shelve stackers earn is no better to them anyway as they’re taxed more heavily.

As to others earning too much, that’s simply supply and demand in most cases. Or what added value they can bring. A ceo will earn a crazy amount of money,  it they’ll also have massive responsibilities. Without guys at the top, lots below wouldn’t know how to make a business function. Anybody who works for a company, is working for an entity someone had the idea to start. Without rewarding these is No progress.


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## Orikoru (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We got a take away last night. It was a bit odd the guy none of his normal hand shake at the door , understandable completely

Wasn't sure if to tip as most have requested card payments to reduce handling of cash
		
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I think all that is a bit daft. People having 'contactless delivery' where the guy leaves it on the step and walks away - he still touched the bag with his hand and you still pick it up so what's the bloody difference?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I think sometimes emotion needs to be taken out of the scenario. i doubt before this anyone can honestly say they felt shelve stackers were vital or warranted a massive wage increase. Yes people were against zero hour contracts and minimum wage has been rising and even including a living wage, but You also need to think of the consequences of said wage increases on career aspirations.
£20 an hour equates to 40k a year. Realistically one of the main driving forces for career aspirations is how you think it’ll reward you. If you can get 40k to stack shelves. How many kids would settle for that Instead of looking for a carrier that would generally pay that (or less).

If a shelf stacker is worth 40k a nurse then becomes 100k.  That’s all well and good, how are said nurses paid. We‘d increase taxes and then all of a sudden the 40k shelve stackers earn is no better to them anyway as they’re taxed more heavily.

As to others earning too much, that’s simply supply and demand in most cases. Or what added value they can bring. A ceo will earn a crazy amount of money,  it they’ll also have massive responsibilities. Without guys at the top, lots below wouldn’t know how to make a business function. Anybody who works for a company, is working for an entity someone had the idea to start. Without rewarding these is No progress.
		
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Why does a Nurse deserve 2 1/2 times a shelf stacker, maybe all jobs simply need an honest decent wage so regardless of profession they are not living in a constant state of worry or anxiety.

A decent fair wage at the lowest level shouldn’t be the guage for what everyone else is paid.

The biggest problem is the gap between the top and bottom.

Look at how Home & Bargain are dealing with their staff compared to Virgin. Sometimes it’s more about feeling valued.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I think all that is a bit daft. People having 'contactless delivery' where the guy leaves it on the step and walks away - he still touched the bag with his hand and you still pick it up so what's the bloody difference?
		
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Sorry but every little helps

Think of it from the flip side. Say I have the virus and I'm self isolating very contagious

I order a take away and he leaves on door step

That take away driver avoids any contact with me.. so HE/SHE doesn't risk spreading it to other customers 

Little measures like this may sound stupid but surely it's better than doing bugger all?

I wipe down my desk with wipes before every shift .. prob does bugger all but if it stops me maybe getting a lesser Illness that could be confused to be the virus making me have to miss work and them pay out overtime to cover me, then to me I think it's a good thing

People have tunnel vision on the virus and are completely missing the big picture


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why does a Nurse deserve 2 1/2 times a shelf stacker, maybe all jobs simply need an honest decent wage so regardless of profession they are not living in a constant state of worry or anxiety.

A decent fair wage at the lowest level shouldn’t be the guage for what everyone else is paid.

The biggest problem is the gap between the top and bottom.

Look at how Home & Bargain are dealing with their staff compared to Virgin. Sometimes it’s more about feeling valued.
		
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I think it would be difficult to justify a system in which a Family with 2 working individuals needs to be part subsidised by the State in the form of substantial Tax Credits, just to bring them up to a wage they can live on. And that's where we are now. 

A nurse married to a shelf stacker can't earn enough to put a roof over their head and food on the table...


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## Orikoru (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry but every little helps

Think of it from the flip side. Say I have the virus and I'm self isolating very contagious

I order a take away and he leaves on door step

That take away driver avoids any contact with me.. so HE/SHE doesn't risk spreading it to other customers

Little measures like this may sound stupid but surely it's better than doing bugger all?

I wipe down my desk with wipes before every shift .. prob does bugger all but if it stops me maybe getting a lesser Illness that could be confused to be the virus making me have to miss work and them pay out overtime to cover me, then to me I think it's a good thing

People have tunnel vision on the virus and are completely missing the big picture
		
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That makes some sense but they are marketing it as customers having to request the contactless delivery, implying that it's for their benefit. I agree with you, it's only likely to benefit the driver if anyone, so perhaps the companies should be mandating that they will deliver this way instead of asking customers to request it.


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## Rooter (Mar 19, 2020)

Slime said:



			Unfortunately we are not, not even close.
		
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No its just some are more equal than others!! ;-)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why does a Nurse deserve 2 1/2 times a shelf stacker, maybe all jobs simply need an honest decent wage so regardless of profession they are not living in a constant state of worry or anxiety.

A decent fair wage at the lowest level shouldn’t be the guage for what everyone else is paid.

The biggest problem is the gap between the top and bottom.

Look at how Home & Bargain are dealing with their staff compared to Virgin. Sometimes it’s more about feeling valued.
		
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Isn't it down to level of training and 'skill' required for said diff rolls

Shelf stacker how much training? Not saying they are low skilled not in that debate 

A nurse is how many years training?

It would be very tough to work out


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			That makes some sense but they are marketing it as customers having to request the contactless delivery, implying that it's for their benefit. I agree with you, it's only likely to benefit the driver if anyone, so perhaps the companies should be mandating that they will deliver this way instead of asking customers to request it.
		
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We are already prepared for self isolation, we have parents who will shop for us. And we can leave porch open (or not they have keys) dump the goods in there . We take in then spray down the porch to remove our germs where possible 

A lot of companies are pushing for cashless payments to stop that handling cash. That would help them and us for a bit


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think it would be difficult to justify a system in which a Family with 2 working individuals needs to be part subsidised by the State in the form of substantial Tax Credits, just to bring them up to a wage they can live on. And that's where we are now.

A nurse married to a shelf stacker can't earn enough to put a roof over their head and food on the table...
		
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Absolutely agree, I do (as probably most do on here) that people work hard in these jobs in big companies etc and deserve the rewards.

The problem for me is that we’ve lost some of the values in society that have led to us creating our own issues, we take far too much for granted and expect others to pick up the pieces.

Scum bags on benefits need just as much targeting as the greedy rich, it’s the average hard working people in the middle suffering.


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## MikeB (Mar 19, 2020)

According to the news the other night train drivers are worth a 29% rise over 4 years giving them 67k, are they really worth x 2.5 nurses?


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Sweet mother, stage 2 over here is tequila. 🤗
		
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Plenty of sand there for everyone to bury their heads in.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 19, 2020)

Rooter said:



			No its just some are more equal than others!! ;-)
		
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Our lass likes to say we are equal, if she keeps having to wake me up to zip up her dress in a morning I’ll argue against until she can dress herself.  

Waiting for the list of “key workers”. We’re no help to fight Coronavirus but I’m hoping the government doesn’t require our services still in the event of a lockdown. 
And with the brats off, many will need to be off for childcare. Which means I might have to do some actual work.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Isn't it down to level of training and 'skill' required for said diff rolls

Shelf stacker how much training? Not saying they are low skilled not in that debate

A nurse is how many years training?

It would be very tough to work out
		
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Both should be equally valued and understand their role in society.

That doesn’t mean they deserve the same wage or should be paid the same.

No nurse should expect to use foodbank or go in to debt to become qualified, just like the shelf stacker shouldn’t need state handouts to top up their wage.

Wages at the “bottom” should start at a level were people can live.

I hate this is X worth 5 times more than Y etc, that’s not how we should look at it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

MikeB said:



			According to the news the other night train drivers are worth a 29% rise over 4 years giving them 67k, are they really worth x 2.5 nurses?
		
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Where was this? Was it night tube ? Because if it is I can safely say that's fake news


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## Papas1982 (Mar 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why does a Nurse deserve 2 1/2 times a shelf stacker, maybe all jobs simply need an honest decent wage so regardless of profession they are not living in a constant state of worry or anxiety.

A decent fair wage at the lowest level shouldn’t be the guage for what everyone else is paid.

The biggest problem is the gap between the top and bottom.

Look at how Home & Bargain are dealing with their staff compared to Virgin. Sometimes it’s more about feeling valued.
		
Click to expand...

OK maybe the nurse wage was a little over the top. But of course they should be paid more. Unless we are simply gonna go dowm the route of telling people what job they should do. 

How many years of training does it take to become qualified. Would as many people do that if they could earn 40k for staking shelves. Harsh as it is. Paying everyone imo crazy money would stunt ambition.


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

UK Active who form part of CIMSPA the governing bodies that regulate and audit Leisure centres, gyms etc. Has sent out info to gyms advising the government are doing all they can to keep them open for use to promote exercise to help fend off virus by keeping people fit and active. Part of the advice is to close Sauna facilities to prevent close contact. Swimming pools to remain open but using 2m lane separation as the chemicals in water apparently will remove virus(I know very well how the chlorination and acid process and backwash works but im not a scientist so not sure how even with modern multi port filtration systems how that prevents spread of the virus). 

Also every alternate piece of cardio kit is switched off to ensure adequate separation, as well as all machines / free wight benches etc to be separated. Cutting class timetables to prevent group activities. All this plus other cleaning protocols put in place.

All this is obviously a huge help to prevent spread but it doesn't account for people that think they don't have to be included in doing their bit individually. 

So as far as we know everything is safe to remain open and use, but I've advised my staff if they see anyone flouting rules or displaying symptoms they're entitled to ask them to leave the club and revoke access in future until we have further info to protect themselves and other members.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			OK maybe the nurse wage was a little over the top. But of course they should be paid more. Unless we are simply gonna go dowm the route of telling people what job they should do.

How many years of training does it take to become qualified. Would as many people do that if they could earn 40k for staking shelves. Harsh as it is. Paying everyone imo crazy money would stunt ambition.
		
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Again though mate, without coming across as rude, who’s talking about paying everyone crazy money or telling people what job they should do?

Totally agree effort and training should be rewarded.

That’s the extremes you’re using. I’m talking about decent living wages were people don’t need extra support or Companies stopped from making hideous profits etc, multi, multi billionaires shouldn’t be allowed.


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## pendodave (Mar 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though mate, without coming across as rude, who’s talking about paying everyone crazy money or telling people what job they should do?

Totally agree effort and training should be rewarded.

That’s the extremes you’re using. I’m talking about decent living wages were people don’t need extra support or Companies stopped from making hideous profits etc, multi, multi billionaires shouldn’t be allowed.
		
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It's no coincidence that the most significant social change of the last 100 years of so have come after the upheaval of ww1&2. Would we even have an NHS otherwise?
It'll be interesting to see how much appetite for change there is once this is out of the way.
Big companies paying tax? Rich people paying tax? Would be nice to think so....


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			OK maybe the nurse wage was a little over the top. But of course they should be paid more. Unless we are simply gonna go dowm the route of telling people what job they should do.

How many years of training does it take to become qualified. Would as many people do that if they could earn 40k for staking shelves. Harsh as it is. Paying everyone imo crazy money would stunt ambition.
		
Click to expand...

I think this whole pay debate is best left for a separate discussion board as there are so many rabbit holes we can go down with it. Like why does a nurse, copper or fireman deserve a higher starting wage than a soldier, airman or Sailor whose training is in many instances more intense and their jobs are often more life threatening and mean many months away from families etc. 

We shouldn't pay anyone crazy money whether its a nurse, postal work or shelf stacker. Ultimately anyone working anywhere has a right to go to work be respected for what they do which adds to society in some way whether through taxes paid, putting food in shelves so we all get to eat or looking after our health care or nation's security, in addition to that respect they all regardless of role deserve a salary that allows them to live without having to seek further government assistance just to eat and keep a roof over their heads.. 

As part of this outbreak I don't merely want people to acknowledge how hard NHS workers work or supermarkets workers are undervalued. I want people acknowledge how important it is to be kind and helpful to other men and women as a whole and society to acknowledge we are all in this together and support each other as a whole instead of point scoring of who deserves what.


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## Mudball (Mar 19, 2020)

Went to Morrisons..  it looked stocked for fresh produce and supplies..  no bog rolls etc.   it was  a quick in and out to get some greens, bread etc.   The place was swarming in about 15 mins.  Took me about 20 mins to get into the tills ..   it is really like Christmas out there.    They might as well put Mariah Carey - All I Want For Christmas Is You on the tannoy...    

Went down to the local Asian shop to pick some rice. Given that Ramadan is around the corner, the place was packed. A bit of chaos at the till, when they realised that some mischief monger had put a pack of frozen pepperoni pizza in one of the freezers.    FFS.. this happens in 2020??  Does bring out the best and worst in people


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 19, 2020)

This is getting a bit of traction on the interweb thingy. It may not be the ultimate resolve, but could be a good start.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-effective-in-treating-coronavirus-says-china


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## Russ_D (Mar 19, 2020)

Read somewhere that hot drinks can help combat coronavirus by flushing the virus from the throat (cold drinks dont do this apparently) where it lives to the stomach where the acid can kill it. Hot toddies all round then


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## Imurg (Mar 19, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Read somewhere that hot drinks can help combat coronavirus by flushing the virus from the throat (cold drinks dont do this apparently) where it lives to the stomach where the acid can kill it. Hot toddies all round then 

Click to expand...

Not true I'm afraid.
The virus will already be invading the cells in the throat...doesn't stop you having one though..
Down the hatch


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Read somewhere that hot drinks can help combat coronavirus by flushing the virus from the throat (cold drinks dont do this apparently) where it lives to the stomach where the acid can kill it. Hot toddies all round then 

Click to expand...

What absolute rubbish you read then. Hot drinks don't flush it from the throat and nor does stomach acid kill the virus. That's another social media muppet falsehood that's already be debunked by the WHO. 

Though a hot toddy is always a good idea just because they're nice.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 19, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Read somewhere that hot drinks can help combat coronavirus by flushing the virus from the throat (cold drinks dont do this apparently) where it lives to the stomach where the acid can kill it. Hot toddies all round then 

Click to expand...


Apparently just water will help do the same. Don't know who to believe on all these things, but the mrs is a nurse and gets a lot of her info from Japan. Hence why we're drinking a snifter of high alcohol content spirits before bed too. . If it's all BS, we're no worse off


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## Russ_D (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			What absolute rubbish you read then. Hot drinks don't flush it from the throat and nor does stomach acid kill the virus. That's another social media muppet falsehood that's already be debunked by the WHO.

Though a hot toddy is always a good idea just because they're nice.
		
Click to expand...

I always go by the "take it with a pinch of salt".....the internet advice, not the toddy


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## Orikoru (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We are already prepared for self isolation, we have parents who will shop for us. And we can leave porch open (or not they have keys) dump the goods in there . We take in then spray down the porch to remove our germs where possible

A lot of companies are pushing for cashless payments to stop that handling cash. That would help them and us for a bit
		
Click to expand...

I've been doing cashless payments wherever possible for about 5 years, lol. What is this cash you speak of?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I've been doing cashless payments wherever possible for about 5 years, lol. What is this cash you speak of? 

Click to expand...

Always helpful for tips for delivery drivers 

My mother in law just got here 

She's been given a list of key workers for her school

Prison staff 
Supermarket staff
Petrol staff 
Dental nurses (incase they get called into NHS itself)

The full list comes out soon


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## Jacko_G (Mar 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I think sometimes emotion needs to be taken out of the scenario. i doubt before this anyone can honestly say they felt shelve stackers were vital or warranted a massive wage increase. Yes people were against zero hour contracts and minimum wage has been rising and even including a living wage, but You also need to think of the consequences of said wage increases on career aspirations.
£20 an hour equates to 40k a year. Realistically one of the main driving forces for career aspirations is how you think it’ll reward you. If you can get 40k to stack shelves. How many kids would settle for that Instead of looking for a carrier that would generally pay that (or less).

If a shelf stacker is worth 40k a nurse then becomes 100k.  That’s all well and good, how are said nurses paid. We‘d increase taxes and then all of a sudden the 40k shelve stackers earn is no better to them anyway as they’re taxed more heavily.

As to others earning too much, that’s simply supply and demand in most cases. Or what added value they can bring. A ceo will earn a crazy amount of money,  it they’ll also have massive responsibilities. Without guys at the top, lots below wouldn’t know how to make a business function. Anybody who works for a company, is working for an entity someone had the idea to start. Without rewarding these is No progress.
		
Click to expand...

You are the one that threw the £20 an hour figure around.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

I think some of the fake news narrative and encouragement by politicians to use social media and not previously trusted news organizations is coming home to roost a bit. As it's frightening how much some stupid people believe some gash they read on Facebook or Instagram when you are dealing with deadly diseases, and don't have the intelligence to do a basic look up on google of coronavirus facts from someone like the world health organization.  Fine if you want to believe Aliens landed in Area 51, not so clever if you dealing with life and death.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 19, 2020)

The boy has just received an email pulling the plug on his summer internship to Nantucket this year. . Will automatically be asked to go next year if the situation improves.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 19, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			You are the one that threw the £20 an hour figure around.
		
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Yes. Because people are were likening the role to a skilled worker and they generally demand that sort of wage. 

But as has been said. Let's move on. That's for akither day.


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## USER1999 (Mar 19, 2020)

About to be told to work from home. Bizarre, as I have little enough to do in the office, let alone at home. At least I won't have to pretend to work, but then they may find out how little I do!


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			About to be told to work from home. Bizarre, as I have little enough to do in the office, let alone at home. At least I won't have to pretend to work, but then they may find out how little I do!
		
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Precisely my fear!


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## CliveW (Mar 19, 2020)

Look on the bright side...

Yesterday afternoon I had to take someone to Edinburgh Airport for 5 pm, (Middle of the rush hour) over the Queensferry Crossing and main road in/out of Edinburgh. Normally at that time of the day I would expect the journey to take about two hours each way, but yesterday it was just over 90 minutes there and back!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think some of the fake news narrative and encouragement by politicians to use social media and not previously trusted news organizations is coming home to roost a bit. As it's frightening how much some stupid people believe some gash they read on Facebook or Instagram when you are dealing with deadly diseases, and don't have the intelligence to do a basic look up on google of coronavirus facts from someone like the world health organization.  Fine if you want to believe Aliens landed in Area 51, not so clever if you dealing with life and death.
		
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Or just look on the BBC website...as it'll be helping with the myth debunking - and links straight to PHE and NHS (and the equivalents for Scotland, Wales and NI) 

Handy isn't having a having a national pubic broadcaster.  Heard Tony Hall this morning saying BBC is liaising with arts, theatre, music and culture groups of all sorts to see what can be done live or otherwise made available to us all across all of the BBC platforms to help folks (us all) in isolation get through the days.  And once we've paid the licence fee it's all free.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have a major dilemma on this matter.

I and a friend run a support group for very vulnerable individuals - all-ages, male, female whatever - it's for everyone and anyone.  For many of the individuals - coming to the group can (literally) be a matter of life and death.  And it is very important that the group is available for anyone to come along who hasn't been before.

The venue is open if we wish to use it.

What do I do?  For me I'd rather avoid it and cancel the meeting.

But in speaking with my wife on this, and with her OK, I have decided that I must keep the group open for as long as government policy allows us to keep it open.

I will set chairs out in the room to give the necessary spacing - and might indeed pause the meeting every ten minutes for us to play musical chairs to avoid anyone sitting beside anyone else for 15 minutes.  And I'll have to ask any with a cough - and there is one who has a terrible persistent cough - if they can perhaps isolate even more (sit in the corner of the room like a naughty boy) - and as a minimum cough into a tissue if he must.

Bottom line is that it is dead easy for me to talk about my principles in seeking guidance on doing the right thing - especially in a difficult situation - in trying to determine what is the right thing to do as opposed to what my will might want me to do myself or for myself - but thoughts without action are worthless.

Difficult.  But I guess I must rely on my much maligned faith.
		
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You do come across as a very nice person very unselfish and caring.
Unfortunately there are not enough people like you now.
I hope you and your wife stay safe and keep up the good work.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am willing the government to be doing the right thing and praying that they continue to do it - but I just don't understand at all why front line service providers (health, police, fire services etc) who display any symptoms that might possibly be cv are not being tested - but are having to go into self-isolation along with their family.  And it is a fact that many. many health professionals are married or partnered with other health professionals.  And so when one goes down with a cough - they are both taken-out.  Why are they not being tested immediately?  I really just don't get it and if anything really worries me that we are not being told everything it is that.

I need to believe *absolutely* in the government and their chief advises.
		
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Yes my sons a pharmacist and his wife a nurse they are both at home now because their son has a temperature and they have not been tested.


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## huds1475 (Mar 19, 2020)

Isn't who gets paid what, and how that affects business models the wrong debate?

Surely its about changing a society based on consumption of commodities to something more holistic.

Now where's my new irons....


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			About to be told to work from home. Bizarre, as I have little enough to do in the office, let alone at home. At least I won't have to pretend to work, but then they may find out how little I do!
		
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That could be a problem for a lot of people.
If your not missed your not important.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Isn't who gets paid what, and how that affects business models the wrong debate?

Surely its about changing a society based on consumption of commodities to something more holistic.

Now where's my new irons....
		
Click to expand...

Well we are finding out just who is a key worker!
And guess what it just happens some of them are the worst paid in the country.
We may learn lessons but I dought it.


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Isn't who gets paid what, and how that affects business models the wrong debate?

Surely its about changing a society based on consumption of commodities to something more holistic.

Now where's my new irons....
		
Click to expand...

It's amazing how Socialism is never the answer.... Until business is in trouble.. Then it's all about the Government handouts... It would be funny if... Actually, no.. It's never funny


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## Russ_D (Mar 19, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well we are finding out just who is a key worker!
And guess what it just happens some of them are the worst paid in the country.
We may learn lessons but I dought it.
		
Click to expand...

The wife is a teacher so classed as a key worker. They have been told that checkout staff and supermarket/shop workers are no key workers so their kids will be found places at schools (if needed due to no childcare). The wife is waiting to find out if she will be needed or can stay at home with the kids.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You do come across as a very nice person very unselfish and caring.
Unfortunately there are not enough people like you now.
I hope you and your wife stay safe and keep up the good work.
		
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Thankyou for that.  Thoughts and words about principles and doing the right thing are easy to say, but when the s hits the f they are a lot harder to put into action when my will tells me to look after myself, my wife and my family.

BTW - OS and others advised that playing musical chairs was the WRONG thing to do - obvious when I thought about it 

I find myself leading a big meeting tomorrow evening in addition to the one I'll do tonight. Now that wasn't on my plan...  However needs must.  I'm just asking that folks only turn up if they feel very vulnerable...many go along for ongoing support and companionship, but are basically pretty much OK.  Too many folks turning up will make it harder for me to maintain the precautions we must adhere to.  And I'm (obviously) going to have to be strict on these precautions...and exclude if required - and exclusion is absolutely not something that is normally done.  But these are not normal times.

[EDIT] I'll add - I can be an irritating pita at times also...but only with friends...


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## huds1475 (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It's amazing how Socialism is never the answer.... Until business is in trouble.. Then it's all about the Government handouts... It would be funny if... Actually, no.. It's never funny
		
Click to expand...

I don't think I'm saying socialism is the answer.

But definitely that capitalism isn't.

Something new feels necessary before we all self combustion.

I just wish I knew what so I could get some merch out before everyone else does


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou for that.  Thoughts and words about principles and doing the right thing are easy to say, but when the s hits the f they are a lot harder to put into action when my will tells me to look after myself, my wife and my family.

BTW - OS and others advised that playing musical chairs was the WRONG thing to do - obvious when I thought about it 

I find myself leading a big meeting tomorrow evening in addition to the one I'll do tonight. Now that wasn't on my plan...  However needs must.  I'm just asking that folks only turn up if they feel very vulnerable...many go along for ongoing support and companionship, but are basically pretty much OK.  Too many folks turning up will make it harder for me to maintain the precautions we must adhere to.  And I'm going to have to be strict on these precautions...and exclude if required - and exclusion is absolutely not something that is normally done.  But these are not normal times.
		
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Well you know you are doing things right if you are oversubscribed.
Regards.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			The wife is a teacher so classed as a key worker. They have been told that checkout staff and supermarket/shop workers are no key workers so their kids will be found places at schools (if needed due to no childcare). The wife is waiting to find out if she will be needed or can stay at home with the kids.
		
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My daughter is a SEN teacher and has just been told she is on a rota for this.
She has been told she will have to work weekends as well.

Just one thing that hasn’t been mentioned who is going to mind these kids when their parents are on the night shift.?


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I don't think I'm saying socialism is the answer.

But definitely that capitalism isn't.

Something new feels necessary before we all self combustion.

I just wish I knew what so I could get some merch out before everyone else does 

Click to expand...

Be careful mate.. You're likely to get lynched on here for preaching against the Free Market mantra..


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## williamalex1 (Mar 19, 2020)

After only 6 days in semi isolation I've put on about a stone , ate all the food, the fridge and cupboards are bear also drank all the booze in the house.
Looking for a volunteer to go shopping for more booze and maybe some food


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## AmandaJR (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Precisely my fear!
		
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Me too!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 19, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			After only 6 days in semi isolation I've put on about a stone , ate all the food, the fridge and cupboards are bear also drank all the booze in the house.
Looking for a volunteer to go shopping for more booze and maybe some food 

Click to expand...

I bulk buyed Easter Eggs, as that seemed to be the only product going. So far, I have 6 to enjoy on my week off next week


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Be careful mate.. You're likely to get lynched on here for preaching against the Free Market mantra..
		
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How can you not use free market capitalism, or a version of it, when you are competing in a global market? And that's part of the trouble. Come at it from the other direction. Salaries go up, great, but costs make the product uncompetitive.

How do you get around it? Subsidise? Isn't that what tax credits are, a type of subsidy? But that needs a govt that subscribes to the idea of doing back door subsidies.... don't forget, under EU law its been illegal to give business subsidies without EU approval, even though  products made in, say, Greece might have lower costs


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			How can you not use free market capitalism, or a version of it, when you are competing in a global market? And that's part of the trouble. Come at it from the other direction. Salaries go up, great, but costs make the product uncompetitive.

How do you get around it? Subsidise? Isn't that what tax credits are, a type of subsidy? But that needs a govt that subscribes to the idea of doing back door subsidies.... don't forget, under EU law its been illegal to give business subsidies without EU approval, even though  products made in, say, Greece might have lower costs
		
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I know mate.. The comments were more tongue in cheek (but I forgot the smilies).. A change in social and economic direction would have to be global, and that just won't happen.. We're in a race to the bottom, and mother nature has just put nitrous oxide into the engine! ;-)


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## User62651 (Mar 19, 2020)

Paranoia setting in, was out in the garden as we have a finer day for once, just patrolling the grounds, neighbours are also outside , they aren't long back from Italy, bloke coughing away has driven me back in. In both Tesco and Lidl earlier, few seem to give a monkeys about keeping 2m apart, started to annoy me a bit, have they not seen the news? Major handwashing on return. Just finished re-wiring a lamp, also put new tuning pegs onto a classical guitar, what now?


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## IanM (Mar 19, 2020)

....I've spent 3 years working on something, that is now being held up due to all Govt types focused on the current emergency!  (understandable)

BUT......Do I book my ferries for the Autumn Meeting?


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## Kennysarmy (Mar 19, 2020)

I'm the IT Manager in a large secondary school, as you can imagine this week has been quite busy!!!

Also had a 50th trip to Portugal cancelled by YourGolfTravel and they won't refund...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			I'm the IT Manager in a large secondary school, as you can imagine this week has been quite busy!!!

*Also had a 50th trip to Portugal cancelled by YourGolfTravel and they won't refund*...
		
Click to expand...

I'm assuming they are saying you can have the credit to use later on?  I've got a UK based trip booked with them for next month and I expect the same.  I think they are in a bad position as they will be cancelling holidays hand over fist, so if they refund everyone they will be in real danger.  But then again how fair is it that you can;t get your money back if you want it as they have not delivered the holiday you asked for.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think this whole pay debate is best left for a separate discussion board as there are so many rabbit holes we can go down with it. *Like why does a nurse, copper or fireman deserve a higher starting wage than a soldier, airman or Sailor whose training is in many instances more intense and their jobs are often more life threatening and mean many months away from families etc.*

We shouldn't pay anyone crazy money whether its a nurse, postal work or shelf stacker. Ultimately anyone working anywhere has a right to go to work be respected for what they do which adds to society in some way whether through taxes paid, putting food in shelves so we all get to eat or looking after our health care or nation's security, in addition to that respect they all regardless of role deserve a salary that allows them to live without having to seek further government assistance just to eat and keep a roof over their heads..

As part of this outbreak I don't merely want people to acknowledge how hard NHS workers work or supermarkets workers are undervalued. I want people acknowledge how important it is to be kind and helpful to other men and women as a whole and society to acknowledge we are all in this together and support each other as a whole instead of point scoring of who deserves what.
		
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Because you can shoot your awkward customers whereas we had to be kind to ours?   (For any members of the Tank Regiments on here that is a joke...  )

Being serious, there are so many ins & outs to this; where do forces personnel stand re accommodation & food (I genuinely don't know the answer) so does that to some degree compensate for lower wages?  what I can agree on is that there are some occupations that are seriously undervalued and some that are seriously overpaid & who hold too much power.  But I'm equally sure that will all be quickly forgotten once we are through this.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

Great vid just popped up on FB of 2 soldiers in Malaga carrying the shopping for a very, very old lady. There are some great examples of the community pulling together. Earlier it was a guy or girl dressed in a huge unicorn suit galloping to the communal bins and back home.

Lockdown, 5.5 days in.

We got notification on Friday of immediate closures, and by Saturday lunchtime pretty much everything was closed. Full on from Monday. Daily public service broadcasts from the local police going around the village. Its a gilded cage, and its no fun.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 19, 2020)

Have cancelled my Aikido club classes. Means I can play golf an extra 3 nights a week, at least until we are under lock down


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## Crazyface (Mar 19, 2020)

Just tried to get in at a local course but told no chance as the seniors have a paddy day shotgun on???????????? How? I asked. Aren't they supposed to be self isolating????? Looks like the seniors are sticking the finger up. What a surprise!!!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2020)

Copied from Twitter:

Take a moment out of the current #COVID19 ‘infodemic’ and spare a thought for the family of Lance Corporal Brodie Gillon. Killed in a foreign land, she will be repatriated back on to Great British soil today where she belongs. Thoughts with all involved and her family.


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Copied from Twitter:

Take a moment out of the current #COVID19 ‘infodemic’ and spare a thought for the family of Lance Corporal Brodie Gillon. Killed in a foreign land, she will be repatriated back on to Great British soil today where she belongs. Thoughts with all involved and her family.
		
Click to expand...

Saw that the other day, she was killed in one of the Iraq rocket attacks whilst she was working in a medic role.  A very sad thing to happen and thoughts with her family today.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 19, 2020)

Spent the whole day helping stocking up another 20 beds and getting signage etc sorted. So little stock of anything including linen and now scrubs for daily use by doctors and physios and have no idea what'll happen if/when this gets to a stage when the normal ICU we have now (19 beds) is full and we've used the adjacent siderooms (taken over from another ward as they external doors and a small internal corridor which is preferable for infection control) and are into the additional 20 beds planned. So little equipment in terms of vents etc. All been a bit of sobering day. Everyone on a state of heightened alert (almost a panic in terms of "are we going to be ready") and so many people running around. Problem I am seeing is people are doing their own bit but there seems to be no overall communication for the ICU team from the ICU consultants, lead nurse, matron etc and so no-one has a complete pictire


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## Kennysarmy (Mar 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm assuming they are saying you can have the credit to use later on?  I've got a UK based trip booked with them for next month and I expect the same.  I think they are in a bad position as they will be cancelling holidays hand over fist, so if they refund everyone they will be in real danger.  But then again how fair is it that you can;t get your money back if you want it as they have not delivered the holiday you asked for.
		
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Package Holiday Operators are evading their responsibilities to refund customers under the package travel regulations. A contract is a contract and they need to refund. Consumers should not be bailing them out. Name and Shame those not refunding.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Paranoia setting in, was out in the garden as we have a finer day for once, just patrolling the grounds, neighbours are also outside , they aren't long back from Italy, bloke coughing away has driven me back in. In both Tesco and Lidl earlier, few seem to give a monkeys about keeping 2m apart, started to annoy me a bit, have they not seen the news? Major handwashing on return. Just finished re-wiring a lamp, also put new tuning pegs onto a classical guitar, what now?
		
Click to expand...

Get yourself a 4000 piece jigsaw.  I'm a bit of a magpie for jisaws from charity shops and have got a great stack of them that have been sitting there just waiting for the day...


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			I'm the IT Manager in a large secondary school, as you can imagine this week has been quite busy!!!

Also had a 50th trip to Portugal cancelled by YourGolfTravel and they won't refund...
		
Click to expand...

They are ABTA bonded You should be entitled to refund, contact ABTA if they won't. https://www.abta.com/help-and-complaints


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## rosecott (Mar 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm assuming they are saying you can have the credit to use later on?  I've got a UK based trip booked with them for next month and I expect the same.  I think they are in a bad position as they will be cancelling holidays hand over fist, so if they refund everyone they will be in real danger.  But then again how fair is it that you can;t get your money back if you want it as they have not delivered the holiday you asked for.
		
Click to expand...

We are also in such a situation, with 12 of us booked and paid for a week in Belek in last week of April. Our organiser has obviously been talking to YourGolfTravel with the flavour being they would very quickly go bust if everyone received a refund. We expect to claim on our travel insurance assuming the travel embargo goes beyond mid-April.


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## woofers (Mar 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Get yourself a 4000 piece jigsaw.  I'm a bit of a magpie for jisaws from charity shops and have got a great stack of them that have been sitting there just waiting for the day...
		
Click to expand...

Wow, 4,000 pieces! I am struggling with a circular 1,000 piece Lord of The Rings
Good, (old-fashioned) , pastimes like jigsaw puzzles are quite therapeutic, as are playing cards (patience, solitaire etc), crosswords and Sudoku in 'hard copy' , i.e.NOT on an iPad, tablet.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because you can shoot your awkward customers whereas we had to be kind to ours?   (For any members of the Tank Regiments on here that is a joke...  ).
		
Click to expand...

Bugger, missed the bit about the joke


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just tried to get in at a local course but told no chance as the seniors have a paddy day shotgun on???????????? How? I asked. Aren't they supposed to be self isolating????? Looks like the seniors are sticking the finger up. What a surprise!!!
		
Click to expand...

Same seniors that keep many clubs solvent during the winter months and if they are anything like ours have strict procedures in place to manage the process.

Teach you to ring up to check tee times are available


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## rosecott (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just tried to get in at a local course but told no chance as the seniors have a paddy day shotgun on???????????? How? I asked. Aren't they supposed to be self isolating????? Looks like the seniors are sticking the finger up. What a surprise!!!
		
Click to expand...

The usual unthinking assumptions. The normal age for becoming a Senior is 55 - it's only you assuming that all Seniors are all 70+. The expected reduction in playing numbers at our place has predominantly come from the 70+ group.


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## IanM (Mar 19, 2020)

Not all seniors are in the high risk group!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

Waiting for lenders to cut their loan rates to 2.1% now that BoE base interest rate has just been cut from 0.25% to 0.1%


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

woofers said:



			Wow, 4,000 pieces! I am struggling with a circular 1,000 piece Lord of The Rings
Good, (old-fashioned) , pastimes like jigsaw puzzles are quite therapeutic, as are playing cards (patience, solitaire etc), crosswords and Sudoku in 'hard copy' , i.e.NOT on an iPad, tablet.
		
Click to expand...

I find doing a jigsaw an excellent mindfulness activity.  I can spend 15minutes a few times during the working day changing my focus from the worries and issues of the day, to sorting and then fitting together little pieces of cardboard - and before I know it that 15mins is half an hour.  And I find that with my mind having not thought of the worries or issues it's a little refreshed.

Who needs stoopid colouring books.  Doing a jigsaw is the answer to our worries 

btw - I only have one 4000 piecer.  Most are 1000 pieces and just the job for when your mind needs a little break (or if you can't get out for a short walk)

#staysafekeepwell


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

This working from home stuff has got to stop, HID has only been here half a day and is driving me nuts. She's also found the biscuit stash.

Civil Servants IT Departments  didn't take into account 1000's logging in remotely


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## rudebhoy (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just tried to get in at a local course but told no chance as the seniors have a paddy day shotgun on???????????? How? I asked. Aren't they supposed to be self isolating????? Looks like the seniors are sticking the finger up. What a surprise!!!
		
Click to expand...


Played yesterday, the car park was the busiest I've ever seen it, had to drive round twice to get a space. Combination of folk "working from home" and people trying to get a game in before the world ends.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			This working from home stuff has got to stop, HID has only been here half a day and is driving me nuts. She's also found the biscuit stash.

*Civil Servants IT Departments  didn't take into account 1000's logging in remotely *

Click to expand...

are you kidding, on a Friday the majority of civil servants I have worked beside are WFH. Allegedly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

We're a Global IT Services and Consultancy business - yet at times in the afternoon it seems as if we must have hamsters running around in wheels powering out network, and in the pm they get a bit knackered.

Though tbh I jest a bit - most of my UK project delivery colleagues WFH, and so the network is scaled to cope with a lot of home working as most of us already do.


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## chellie (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just tried to get in at a local course but told no chance as the seniors have a paddy day shotgun on???????????? How? I asked. Aren't they supposed to be self isolating????? Looks like the seniors are sticking the finger up. What a surprise!!!
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was ADVISED from this weekend.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Bugger, missed the bit about the joke
		
Click to expand...

Some reckon that wasn't all the Tankies missed...


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## rosecott (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just tried to get in at a local course but told no chance as the seniors have a paddy day shotgun on???????????? How? I asked. Aren't they supposed to be self isolating????? Looks like the seniors are sticking the finger up. What a surprise!!!
		
Click to expand...

Remind me - are you the same person who was hellbent on flying to Portugal in defiance of government advice?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			This working from home stuff has got to stop, HID has only been here half a day and is driving me nuts. She's also found the biscuit stash.

Civil Servants IT Departments  didn't take into account 1000's logging in remotely 

Click to expand...

Yours collapsing as well?  I've just had to speak to one of the girls about my work mobile & she reckons that the system is going down every 2 minutes with everyone logging on from home.  It's not looking good for Monday.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Some reckon that wasn't all the Tankies missed... 

Click to expand...

 no chance


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

And they have their anti Covid gear on


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## 2blue (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think this whole pay debate is best left for a separate discussion board as there are so many rabbit holes we can go down with it. Like why does a nurse, copper or fireman deserve a higher starting wage than a soldier, airman or Sailor whose training is in many instances more intense and their jobs are often more life threatening and mean many months away from families etc.

We shouldn't pay anyone crazy money whether its a nurse, postal work or shelf stacker. Ultimately anyone working anywhere has a right to go to work be respected for what they do which adds to society in some way whether through taxes paid, putting food in shelves so we all get to eat or looking after our health care or nation's security, in addition to that respect they all regardless of role deserve a salary that allows them to live without having to seek further government assistance just to eat and keep a roof over their heads..

As part of this outbreak I don't merely want people to acknowledge how hard NHS workers work or supermarkets workers are undervalued. I want people acknowledge how important it is to be kind and helpful to other men and women as a whole and society to acknowledge we are all in this together and support each other as a whole instead of point scoring of who deserves what.
		
Click to expand...

"They are casting their problems at society. *And, you know, there's no such thing as society*. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." –  *Thatcher in an interview in Women's Own in 1987* 
What was created then, we've been reaping ever since. Greed & selfishness abounds in our Nation from the very top down. Thankfully the headlines are now more about our front-line workers selflessly risking their health to save so many in our Nation......  when this is all over...  will folk remember that!!


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

2blue said:



			"They are casting their problems at society. *And, you know, there's no such thing as society*. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." –  *Thatcher in an interview in Women's Own in 1987*
What was created then, we've been reaping ever since. Greed & selfishness abounds in our Nation from the very top down. Thankfully the headlines are now more about our front-line workers selflessly risking their health to save so many in our Nation......  when this is all over...  will folk remember that!!
		
Click to expand...

No
It’s like car insurance ,everyone moans about the price until you need to use it.
Once the cars fixed we go back to moaning.


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Just had another update that the CEO of UK Active is meeting with the government tonight to discuss leisure centres and gyms, whether they're to remain open or put in place different procedures to what are already being used. So we should have an update tomorrow as to what happens there.. My household maybe royally screwed if they close though, as I can't start new job yet due Covid19 protocols, contracts end next week anyway. Mrs Wolf will be home with no SSP & her next stage/final stage of RAF recruit relies on an in gym fitness test🤷🏻‍♂️. 

Best tighten the purse strings a bit.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 19, 2020)

2blue said:



			"They are casting their problems at society. *And, you know, there's no such thing as society*. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." –  *Thatcher in an interview in Women's Own in 1987*
What was created then, we've been reaping ever since. Greed & selfishness abounds in our Nation from the very top down. Thankfully the headlines are now more about our front-line workers selflessly risking their health to save so many in our Nation......  when this is all over...  will folk remember that!!
		
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Thatcher and Reagan...what a lovely job they did in devolving us as a species.
They more or less made Johnson and Trump inevitable, didn't they?
And what kind of a hit to our way of life will be required to get us thinking about getting back on track?


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## chrisd (Mar 19, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Thatcher and Reagan...what a lovely job they did in devolving us as a species.
They more or less made Johnson and Trump inevitable, didn't they?
And what kind of a hit to our way of life will be required to get us thinking about getting back on track?
		
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Thatcher was absolutely the right person in charge at the right time, others will disagree. Cant speak for Reagan as my knowledge of US politics back then was scant. Johnson is definitely not the idiot that Trump appears to be but then our Prime Ministers are always politicians and not actors and golf course owners


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## Mudball (Mar 19, 2020)

So is there any chance that mortgage rates will match the 0.1% that BoE announced today?

Looks like HiD's place will shut for 2 months, i might be tempted at the mortagage holiday


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 19, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Thatcher was absolutely the right person in charge at the right time, others will disagree. Cant speak for Reagan as my knowledge of US politics back then was scant. Johnson is definitely not the idiot that Trump appears to be but then our Prime Ministers are always politicians and not actors and golf course owners
		
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As a more conservative person, you've been more blessed to have things go your way.
As a progressive social democrat, I've been prodded into a constant stage of near homicidal rage.
So far now, at least, your blood pressure is lower than mine.
Congrats for that, at least.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops.?

HIT THE PLAY BUTTON TO SEE UP TO DATE NUMBERS...not what the first screen shows


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## Imurg (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops.?

HIT THE PLAY BUTTON TO SEE UP TO DATE NUMBERS...not what the first screen shows







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I think it's because they have more ICU bed per 100k of population than most other places... something like 29 per 100k whereas we have about 7...


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops.?

HIT THE PLAY BUTTON TO SEE UP TO DATE NUMBERS...not what the first screen shows







Click to expand...

They also are a nation where people do as they are told.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops.?

HIT THE PLAY BUTTON TO SEE UP TO DATE NUMBERS...not what the first screen shows







Click to expand...

Well - as my Mrs has said plenty of times over the last decade at least - the NHS was continuing to deliver an adequate to good service carried by the experienced staff who started their nursing careers as a vocation back in the 70s.  It was they who were taking the load - protecting the cohorts of younger nurses as they came in - latterly with their degrees and ideas - but not in sufficient numbers.

That whole generation of very experienced nurses are now beginning to retire, and the tsunami that will hit the NHS has yet to materialise - but they will do a fabulous job through this crisis - leading teams of highly skilled but nervous nurses - and giving support to a lot of pretty frightened young nurses.  But unfortunately - and as much as they would if they could - no amount of experience and commitment to the NHS can do the job of a ventilator.

BTW - is it just me or is Matt Hancock a bit invisible these recent days and news conferences, indeed I've heard a lot more from Jeremy Hunt than he.  I get he will have the weight of the whole NHS on his shoulders - but maybe we need to hear from him a little.


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## pendodave (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops.?

HIT THE PLAY BUTTON TO SEE UP TO DATE NUMBERS...not what the first screen shows







Click to expand...

maybe they just don't count them the same?


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops.?

HIT THE PLAY BUTTON TO SEE UP TO DATE NUMBERS...not what the first screen shows







Click to expand...

No idea what they're doing but my experience of German health care was bloody wonderful. I woke up in Bielefield hospital with multiple wounds stitched up a fresh metal plate m, some wonderful drugs all with a lovely view of the gardens and a rather atrractive nurse bringing me a plate of cold cuts, cheeses, breads and fresh coffee. She also took my lunch orders and dinner orders along with what beer I wanted. I have no idea what she said I was to busy admiring how attractive she was and in shock that the treatment was so swift and pleasant.


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## Crazyface (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Same seniors that keep many clubs solvent during the winter months and if they are anything like ours have strict procedures in place to manage the process.

Teach you to ring up to check tee times are available
		
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Sorry missed a bit....for tomorrow.  I'm not stupid honestly. Plus I do realize that not all seniors are over 70. But some are !!!!! And I'll wager a lot playing in the comp are !!!! But they'll all be there. You betcha boots. Why doesn't anyone listen to advice anymore?


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## Crazyface (Mar 19, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Played yesterday, the car park was the busiest I've ever seen it, had to drive round twice to get a space. Combination of folk *"working from home"* and people trying to get a game in before the world ends.
		
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Mmmm I expected THIS to happen.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			no chance
View attachment 29415

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Blue on Blue? No wonder his hands are up.


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry missed a bit....for tomorrow.  I'm not stupid honestly. Plus I do realize that not all seniors are over 70. But some are !!!!! And I'll wager a lot playing in the comp are !!!! But they'll all be there. You betcha boots. *Why doesn't anyone listen to advice anymore*?
		
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Interesting question from someone who only the other day claimed they were going to fly to Portugal regardless of the advice given 🤔


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## Italian outcast (Mar 19, 2020)

The death numbers in Germany will be underestimated - not all deaths in patients with coronavirus are included - some are coded as death based on other causes - and not included in the covid tally
But nevertheless fatalities seem to be lower - they do have a far higher ration of ICU beds etc than elsewhere in Europe

The geographical spread helps also (most deaths in Italy and Spain are focused in centres (Milan/Bergamo and Madrid where ICU services are overloaded ++
In Germany - its more varied (mostly in the West and Bavaria)
See this interactive map - a similar one for the uk would be useful 
https://interaktiv.morgenpost.de/corona-virus-karte-infektionen-deutschland-weltweit/


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## DanFST (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No idea what they're doing but my experience of German health care was bloody wonderful. I woke up in Bielefield hospital with multiple wounds stitched up a fresh metal plate m, some wonderful drugs all with a lovely view of the gardens and a rather atrractive nurse bringing me a plate of cold cuts, cheeses, breads and fresh coffee. She also took my lunch orders and dinner orders along with what beer I wanted. I have no idea what she said I was to busy admiring how attractive she was and in shock that the treatment was so swift and pleasant.
		
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What was it actually like when the drugs wore off?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 19, 2020)

Earlier today I advised all online grocery shoppers to tick every 'substitute' box.
Hmmmmm, Bernard Mathews dinosaur turkey pieces instead of Bird Eye chicken fillets , beggars can't be choosers.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

Travel plans for the weekend


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops.?

HIT THE PLAY BUTTON TO SEE UP TO DATE NUMBERS...not what the first screen shows







Click to expand...

We have a German customer and she was asking how life was here right now. People are panic buying, many are ignoring the advice to not go out, stop socialising etc.i told her. She came back with a full on rant. No toilet rolls, hand wash etc. People still going to bars and cafes etc. 'So many people are stupid '. 

It all sounded very familiar. 

I have to agree with your point though. I saw their figures yesterday and they stood out.


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## 2blue (Mar 19, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Thatcher was absolutely the right person in charge at the right time, others will disagree. Cant speak for Reagan as my knowledge of US politics back then was scant. Johnson is definitely not the idiot that Trump appears to be but then our Prime Ministers are always politicians and not actors and golf course owners
		
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Might have worked for you but the rest of us are suffering more than 30 years on. No wonder the bonfires are still burning in these parts.


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			What was it actually like when the drugs wore off? 

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Just as good, food was excellent and she was a cracker 😍
Was gutted when it came to being discharged and sent back to work 😂


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## chrisd (Mar 19, 2020)

2blue said:



			Might have worked for you but the rest of us are suffering more than 30 years on. No wonder the bonfires are still burning in these parts.
		
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I know we're miles apart on the "Maggie" issue but "the rest of us" is totally wrong but I do accept that there are two very different camps on her reign but I'm not going to waste the next few hours arguing the matter because neither you or I will ever agree the matter.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Blue on Blue? No wonder his hands are up.

Click to expand...

We don't discriminate, he stole our beer.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why doesn't anyone listen to advice anymore?
		
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Do tell


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We don't discriminate, he stole our beer.
		
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Surprised you lot noticed, you're normally to busy keeping your hands warm near the exhausts 😉


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## 2blue (Mar 19, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I know we're miles apart on the "Maggie" issue but "the rest of us" is totally wrong but I do accept that there are two very different camps on her reign but I'm not going to waste the next few hours arguing the matter because neither you or I will ever agree the matter.
		
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'The rest of us' is the Society she destroyed & which we need now more than ever......  but you'll always find those who are happy that she sold them their council house that me & my kids are still paying for.


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## yandabrown (Mar 19, 2020)

An excellent description of the virus and exactly what it does to your body in nice simple terms:


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## chrisd (Mar 19, 2020)

2blue said:



			'The rest of us' is the Society she destroyed & which we need now more than ever......  but you'll always find those who are happy that she sold them their council house that me & my kids are still paying for.
		
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I didnt get to buy a council house, you are not still paying for it, the "rest of us"  are only those who dont think she saved the country from the decline we were plummeting into but you know what Dave we will never agree so why argue?


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No idea what they're doing but my experience of German health care was bloody wonderful. I woke up in Bielefield hospital with multiple wounds stitched up a fresh metal plate m, some wonderful drugs all with a lovely view of the gardens and a rather atrractive nurse bringing me a plate of cold cuts, cheeses, breads and fresh coffee. She also took my lunch orders and dinner orders along with what beer I wanted. I have no idea what she said I was to busy admiring how attractive she was and in shock that the treatment was so swift and pleasant.
		
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Are u sure them drugs were better than u think.
She prob was a battle axe.


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Are u sure them drugs were better than u think.
She prob was a battle axe.
		
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Oh no I still remember her well she was a very attractive curly blonde haired young lass. The one I had on the evening shifts however was akin to a 1970s female German shot Putter 😳


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh no I still remember her well she was a very attractive curly blonde haired young lass. The one I had on the evening shifts however was akin to a 1970s female German shot Putter 😳
		
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Which one did you try to pull?


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## larmen (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What on earth a Germany doing differently/right, and why isn't it being broadcast from the roof tops
		
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Not enough. They are talking about a full curfew from the weekend. Too many people behaving stupidly. There were so many people self isolating in a park that it was full. Kids not in school gathering in skate parks. ...
One region in Bavaria already has this now because they had exponential growth of virus earlier this week.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh no I still remember her well she was a very attractive curly blonde haired young lass. The one I had on the evening shifts however was akin to a 1970s female German shot Putter 😳
		
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You were very fortunate then?
But as long as they look after you they could look like Marty Feldman imo.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

This is from my wife 

Her school is closed but staff have been called into other schools to provide childcare 

Staff 3 weeks on and off ... Through Easter and summer ..... 

Will be lot of pissed off teachers lol


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## Tongo (Mar 19, 2020)

Working from home now, have been all week, whilst only leaving the house to go to food shops. I am a diabetic so pretty much house bound at the moment.


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## 2blue (Mar 19, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I didnt get to buy a council house, you are not still paying for it, the "rest of us"  are only those who dont think she saved the country from the decline we were plummeting into but you know what Dave we will never agree so why argue?
		
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You know......  I don't need you to agree so that I can point out that a lot of whats happening now is due to the damage to society that The Witch did 30 odd years ago. The fact she got a lot out of paying Council rents is something we're all paying for now as we try to get affordable housing available. But hey ho.... you & the Scabs did OK out of her but that won't put out bonfires around here.


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## Imurg (Mar 19, 2020)

I hope everyone is keeping their mental health in check.
I know theres some one here who struggle occasionally,  me included, and we need to stop any bickering that brings everything down.
This forum needs to be as happy a place as possible for the foreseeable future..


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I hope everyone is keeping their mental health in check.
I know theres some one here who struggle occasionally,  me included, and we need to stop any bickering that brings everything down.
This forum needs to be as happy a place as possible for the foreseeable future..
		
Click to expand...

"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"


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## Crazyface (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Interesting question from someone who only the other day claimed they were going to fly to Portugal regardless of the advice given 🤔
		
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Ooooo very good. But, if Ryanair think it's ok at the mo, who am I to argue? Hopefully I'll get stuck over there as well. Lot's of loverly sunshine !!!!!!!


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## Crazyface (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			This is from my wife

Her school is closed but staff have been called into other schools to provide childcare

Staff 3 weeks on and off ... Through Easter and summer .....

Will be lot of pissed off teachers lol
		
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Aaaah poor little lambs. 3 weeks on and off and they are moaning? Teachers eh? Wouldn't give 'em house room.


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## Crazyface (Mar 19, 2020)

larmen said:



			Not enough. They are talking about a full curfew from the weekend. Too many people behaving stupidly. There were so many people self isolating in a park that it was full. Kids not in school gathering in skate parks. ...
One region in Bavaria already has this now because they had exponential growth of virus earlier this week.
		
Click to expand...


And due to the UK thinking it's won't happen here, it will. We should have got all this done a week ago. We are so far behind where we should be and have learnt sweet fanny adams from what has happened in Spain and Italy, that we will have to enforce lock downs as well.


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## Imurg (Mar 19, 2020)

I get the feeling some non essential Govt departments and agencies will shut down quite soon.
Driving tests have been suspended in N Ireland for 12 weeks.
No word on here yet as the belief is they will be suspended as part of new measures announced in the coming days.


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Aaaah poor little lambs. 3 weeks on and off and they are moaning? Teachers eh? Wouldn't give 'em house room.
		
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There are times when you really need to step away from the keyboard.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"
		
Click to expand...

I'll swap a Kenco Rich 150g pack for a coupla tins of your finest British Beans!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 19, 2020)

Let’s keep it nice everyone, ta muchly👍


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"
		
Click to expand...

Loo role for a bottle of Jack Daniels.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"
		
Click to expand...




AmandaJR said:



			I'll swap a Kenco Rich 150g pack for a coupla tins of your finest British Beans!
		
Click to expand...

Decaf or full fat?


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## upsidedown (Mar 19, 2020)

On a positive front was talking to an Amazon delivery driver whilst out mowing and he was very happy as everyone at home to take delivery and roads quieter


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Loo role for a bottle of Jack Daniels.
		
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Mmm, JD is mega expensive over here. How about Spanish brandy... you'll have your sight back by Monday-ish


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## AmandaJR (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Decaf or full fat?
		
Click to expand...

Full!


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## larmen (Mar 19, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			On a positive front was talking to an Amazon delivery driver whilst out mowing and he was very happy as everyone at home to take delivery and roads quieter
		
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To counter that, the staples we buy from amazon for 3 years now (nappies and wet wipes) got silly expensive.
But we will be in for tomorrow’s delivery of a 20m network cable to get better connection in the ‘new home office’


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## Old Skier (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, JD is mega expensive over here. How about Spanish brandy... you'll have your sight back by Monday-ish
		
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Having drunk potato mash vodka in Russia and Potcheen in NI I'll take my chances


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## Slab (Mar 19, 2020)

Well we had our first case last night... borders shut-down today & all businesses other then essential services & food retailers are shut from tomorrow, total containment its being called 

from Nothing to lockdown in 36 hours!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Ooooo very good. But, if Ryanair think it's ok at the mo, who am I to argue? Hopefully I'll get stuck over there as well. Lot's of loverly sunshine !!!!!!!
		
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God, if you are using Ryanair as a beacon of moral guidance then best of luck with that one.


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## Italian outcast (Mar 19, 2020)

look at me i've a steinway in


Hobbit said:



			"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"
		
Click to expand...

I'll _make you _all the coffee's you need and sennd them round - just trade me that _Baby_ _*Steinway*_ you were showing off in your travel post


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Aaaah poor little lambs. 3 weeks on and off and they are moaning? Teachers eh? Wouldn't give 'em house room.
		
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I know we are supposed to be nice. But please think before typing. All teachers have been doing their best to ensure key workers with kids can keep this country working in very trying circumstances.

The fact that seems idiots don't seem to appreciate this and think advice regarding travel don't apply to them suggests they should of paid more attention to them at school.


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## hovis (Mar 19, 2020)

emergency services are going to struggle as the government said we can only send our children to school if "both" parents are keys workers.  my wife and many others in the private sector don't have such understanding bosses.

alot of panicking chiefs at the minute wondering how they're going to manage on an already thin service


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## User62651 (Mar 19, 2020)

Slab said:



			Well we had our first case last night... borders shut-down today & all businesses other then essential services & food retailers are shut from tomorrow, total containment its being called

from Nothing to lockdown in 36 hours!
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like the right thing to do, nip it in the bud early.
Dont really get the UK position, cases increasing fast and Boris is asking (not telling) people to do certain things that many are simply not heeding. Quite a number of people shopping and sitting out at the harbour pub drinking this afternoon in small groups as it was the nicest day of the year weather wise. People aren't clear on what they should do. Almost like they're doing these activities whilst they still can.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

My just eat delivery driver used latex gloves when he arrived today


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## williamalex1 (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"
		
Click to expand...

There's a cracking video and picture on Fbook showing a guy paying for a Chinese carry out with sheets of toilet paper, another of a guy in an awful state surrounded by empty booze bottles after a only few days isolation. sady i don't know how to post them.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, JD is mega expensive over here. How about Spanish brandy... you'll have your sight back by Monday-ish
		
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Who said Brandy ?


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## Imurg (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Having drunk potato mash vodka in Russia and Potcheen in NI I'll take my chances 

Click to expand...

When I was on a Scout camp back in the day we drank potato mash.........used Smash with a touch too much water


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## IainP (Mar 19, 2020)




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## adam6177 (Mar 19, 2020)

My Mrs is a teacher in a private school. Announcement made about NHS workers and "key" works kids still being allowed into the school once it's shut so that parents can do their important jobs that serve the nation.....

.... You wouldn't believe what jobs some parents think are "key".  Teachers and parents had an open and Frank discussion today and eventually it comes out from a couple of the parents that having their kids at home "doesn't work for them" despite the fact that they work from home.

It always amazes me just how selfish and self centered some people are.


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## Slime (Mar 19, 2020)

2blue said:



			You know......  I don't need you to agree so that I can point out that a lot of whats happening now is due to the damage to society that The Witch did 30 odd years ago. The fact she got a lot out of paying Council rents is something we're all paying for now as we try to get affordable housing available. But hey ho.... *you & the Scabs did OK out of her *but that won't put out bonfires around here.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you'd say that if you actually knew Chris.
He's a good 'un.


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## User20204 (Mar 19, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Sounds like the right thing to do, nip it in the bud early.
		
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Yet I've just watched a news report out of Italy that suggests that the lockdown it's working in the manner that they had hoped and may yet be extended.


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## 2blue (Mar 19, 2020)

Slime said:



			I don't think you'd say that if you actually knew Chris.
He's a good 'un.
		
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All I've said is that he must have done OK by her.......  & yes, I know Chris


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## IainP (Mar 19, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			There's a cracking video and picture on Fbook showing a guy paying for a Chinese carry out with sheets of toilet paper, another of a guy in an awful state surrounded by empty booze bottles after a only few days isolation. sady i don't know how to post them.
		
Click to expand...


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry missed a bit....for tomorrow.  I'm not stupid honestly. Plus I do realize that not all seniors are over 70. But some are !!!!! And I'll wager a lot playing in the comp are !!!! But they'll all be there. You betcha boots. Why doesn't anyone listen to advice anymore?
		
Click to expand...

This wasn’t the same person CF who the other week, not at tour own course  said something along the lines of,” If you think I am going to replace my divots you can think again”!

Pot kettle black perhaps!


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Having drunk potato mash vodka in Russia and *Potcheen* in NI I'll take my chances 

Click to expand...

That stuffs like drinking rocket fuel, tried on tour there once and I swear I went blind after drinking it, horrendous stuff. Wouldn't touch it again if you were offering ne a large cash sum to do it.  Absinthe is the other one can't touch the stuff after a night out in Hameln many years ago even the thought of it gives me the shakes 😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 19, 2020)

Spent a 12 hour day working with the technicians and consultants to set up the overflow room, get signage organised in between fielding a host of other ad hoc "can you do" requests. Scary as I said earlier to see what stock the technicians have now, even for "business as usual" let alone anything more full scale. Yes we know it's promised but the chief technician can't find where it is and when its coming


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## williamalex1 (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That stuffs like drinking rocket fuel, tried on tour there once and I swear I went blind after drinking it, horrendous stuff. Wouldn't touch it again if you were offering ne a large cash sum to do it.  Absinthe is the other one can't touch the stuff after a night out in Hameln many years ago even the thought of it gives me the shakes 😂
		
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Years ago we drank blue label Vodka with PLJ lemon juice, we'd ran out of Orange and coke  oh and whisky Macs , Drambuie with any kind of spirit


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## Crazyface (Mar 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I know we are supposed to be nice. But please think before typing. All teachers have been doing their best to ensure key workers with kids can keep this country working in very trying circumstances.

The fact that seems idiots don't seem to appreciate this and think advice regarding travel don't apply to them suggests they should of paid more attention to them at school.
		
Click to expand...

Hi, you got £2k to chuck about? No , me neither. If the government have got no balls to cancel all air travel, then they leave me with no choice.


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## rosecott (Mar 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"
		
Click to expand...


Just got 2 packs of Taylor's finest to see me through the siege - and I'm keeping them. I had trouble getting Coffeemate until I tried Iceland in desperation and was amazed that they had big 1kg tins.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Hi, you got £2k to chuck about? No , me neither. If the government have got no balls to cancel all air travel, then they leave me with no choice.
		
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I’d be gone in your shoes as well, rather be locked down in the sun than here. If the uk will let you go, Portugal happy to take you and your healthy, you get gone! had an email from Amendoeira golf saying business as usual but the bar will shut 8.30pm and to use the hand sanitizers. 
I’ll be supporting a restaurant and pubs this weekend until the government grow some balls and lock us down.


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## Hobbit (Mar 19, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Hi, you got £2k to chuck about? No , me neither. If the government have got no balls to cancel all air travel, then they leave me with no choice.
		
Click to expand...

Suggest you check what's happening in Portugal. As of 2 hours ago, essential travel only, all shops, bars and restaurants closed. Only groceries and chemists to open. 15 days shutdown.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’d be gone in your shoes as well, rather be locked down in the sun than here. If the uk will let you go, Portugal happy to take you and your healthy, you get gone! had an email from Amendoeira golf saying business as usual but the bar will shut 8.30pm and to use the hand sanitizers.
*I’ll be supporting a restaurant and pubs this weekend until the government grow some balls and lock us down*.
		
Click to expand...

Our until some of the public grow some decency and listen to advice to help protect everyone, especially the vulnerable.


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## bluewolf (Mar 20, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Hi, you got £2k to chuck about? No , me neither. If the government have got no balls to cancel all air travel, then they leave me with no choice.
		
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Of course you have a choice. You just don’t like it. 
TBH though, I love the fact that you’re playing a game of chicken in which only one of you can lose. If you fly then they win. If you stay then they win. You just aren’t quite bright enough to realise that you’re playing against loaded dice!


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## IainP (Mar 20, 2020)

Lot of opinions out there, this isn't a great read
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51963486


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Listened to a call from an intensive care consultant in a London hospital on Tom swarbrick on LBC last night about midnight.  The Dr was on a break and he very emotionally and angrily talked about those still carrying on as normal in pubs and restaurants in London and cramming together in supermarkets.  His unit is already full and they are out of ventilators and the nurses do not have proper PPE - they are putting their lives at risk.  Yet so many are ignoring the exhortations.  You could hear he was scared as well as angry - he said unless things change dramatically and immediately in people’s behaviour this is going to be catastrophic.

To be honest it really scared me - and if you can listen to it I guarantee it’ll scare you too.  Government MUST shut down everything now.  Its caused me a huge issue around taking a meeting I am due to run tonight.  I took one last night and everybody was good and the dozen folk at it sat 2m apart and no physical contact at all for the whole time.  However the one tonight will inevitably be harder to organise that way.

At this moment NOTHING matters more than isolation.  Everything else can be sorted.

i don’t see a link to it but see reaction on his twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

It’ll be on LBC (Global Radio Player catch-up at 00:10 this morning)

Frankly and honestly I’m scared.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 20, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Hi, you got £2k to chuck about? No , me neither. If the government have got no balls to cancel all air travel, then they leave me with no choice.
		
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My MIL and FIL have just been to Tenerife, should've been there til next saturday. 

Come back last night as Ryanair had cancelled there flight coming home next week so theyve paid over the odds to get home, the resorts are on total lockdown, people in hotels are banished to their rooms. 

They were lucky they had a good sized balcony where they were staying so they could sit and drink in the sun. They were told that Jet2 are on lockdown from this Monday and there'll be no more flights in or out the country.

I understand you dont want to lose money, not many of us working class folk can afford to lose that amount of money, but if it's anything like what they've just experienced you wont be a happy chap.

Good luck with your decision


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## pauljames87 (Mar 20, 2020)

Atmosphere at work drastically changed since I was last here wednesday 

One person's gone from all this wiping desks down won't work etc etc to oh I want all information on the phone as personal space .. don't make tea for me. Ok won't do


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## backwoodsman (Mar 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			"Hi, my name is Hobbit, and I need to trade. Anyone got any butter? I've got 4 tins of HEINZ beans - not cheap Chinese copies. Also, HID has ran out of coffee. Can trade some Fray Bentos pies...?"

"Anyone out there dealing?"
		
Click to expand...

I've got a box of printer/photocopier paper in the back room - 5 reams left. Will swap for loo roll on sheet for sheet basis. Pleeeease!


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## backwoodsman (Mar 20, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Hi, you got £2k to chuck about? No , me neither. If the government have got no balls to cancel all air travel, then they leave me with no choice.
		
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Hmmm. Despite the general inadvisability (stupidity??) of travelling (and indeed Hobbit's recent post about Portugal) you'll be wanting to check your travel insurance. With the FCO already advising against all foreign travel, you may easily find yourself without cover  - ie up a certain creek without propulsion. Rather risky in my view.


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2020)

IainP said:



			Lot of opinions out there, this isn't a great read
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51963486

Click to expand...

I read the first five words ........................ that was enough for me.
No wonder people are stockpiling having read hysteria like that.


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## Crazyface (Mar 20, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			My MIL and FIL have just been to Tenerife, should've been there til next saturday.

Come back last night as Ryanair had cancelled there flight coming home next week so theyve paid over the odds to get home, the resorts are on total lockdown, people in hotels are banished to their rooms.

They were lucky they had a good sized balcony where they were staying so they could sit and drink in the sun. They were told that Jet2 are on lockdown from this Monday and there'll be no more flights in or out the country.

I understand you dont want to lose money, not many of us working class folk can afford to lose that amount of money, but if it's anything like what they've just experienced you wont be a happy chap.

Good luck with your decision
		
Click to expand...


We had a villa with a heated pool so really were not concerned as long as we could get food from the shops. We fully intended to lounge about and not really use the restaurants as we can BBQ can all can cook. 

Today....flight cancelled. Full refund. Or re-book, but no flights out for next Easter yet. Took 'em long enough. 

Off to play golf now and see how many oldies are out on the course. Found a course on full greens and no mats. Wahooo!!!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Matt Hancock telling us that letters are going out today to 16000 (I think) ex-NHS doctors and nurses.  Not sure how enthusiastic the uptake will be.

[CORRECTION] 65,000


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Slime said:



			I read the first five words ........................ that was enough for me.
No wonder people are stockpiling having read hysteria like that.
		
Click to expand...

not sure it is hysteria - I’d like it to be - however...


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## huds1475 (Mar 20, 2020)

Slime said:



			I read the first five words ........................ that was enough for me.
No wonder people are stockpiling having read hysteria like that.
		
Click to expand...

That bbc article is far from scaremongering. Probably the complete opposite as it explains the full lifecycle.

Would be naive to think it just magically goes away after an initial peak.

Ive seen some of the models, long term strategy essential as it will keep coming back.

Why do you think the flu jab exists??


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## chellie (Mar 20, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Found a course on full greens and no mats. Wahooo!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

So you are travelling to a random course and possibly spreading the virus around


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## huds1475 (Mar 20, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			I've got a box of printer/photocopier paper in the back room - 5 reams left. Will swap for loo roll on sheet for sheet basis. Pleeeease!
		
Click to expand...

Gently rub fabric softener into said paper and instantly turn it in to home-made bog roll??


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			That bbc article is far from scaremongering. Probably the complete opposite as it explains the full lifecycle.

Would be naive to think it just magically goes away after an initial peak.

Ive seen some of the models, long term strategy essential as it will keep coming back.

Why do you think the flu jab exists??
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough ......................... but the world is not shutting down.
We're facing a particularly nasty virus, not a nuclear apocalypse.


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## huds1475 (Mar 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			emergency services are going to struggle as the government said we can only send our children to school if "both" parents are keys workers.  my wife and many others in the private sector don't have such understanding bosses.

alot of panicking chiefs at the minute wondering how they're going to manage on an already thin service
		
Click to expand...

That's not, or no longer true.

Only one parent viewed as key worker and kids can go school.

Wife a deputy head


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## huds1475 (Mar 20, 2020)

Slime said:



			Fair enough ......................... but the world is not shutting down.
We're facing a particularly nasty virus, not a nuclear apocalypse.
		
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Not interested in debating semantics, you crack on though.


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## hovis (Mar 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			That's not, or no longer true.

Only one parent viewed as key worker and kids can go school.

Wife a deputy head
		
Click to expand...

yeh, it changed last night.  apparently every chef police and fire officer was on the phone to government.   the impact it was going to have on emergency services was potentially huge


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			That's not, or no longer true.

Only one parent viewed as key worker and kids can go school.

Wife a deputy head
		
Click to expand...

Agree

Wife works in a local independent (although I guess that's irrelevant) and they have approximately 60 kids due in next week and guidance is definitely one key worker sufficient


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Not interested in debating semantics, you crack on though.
		
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It's nothing to do with semantics, it's everything to do with over dramatising and scaremongering.
The quality of much of the reporting has been nothing short of ridiculous.
No wonder people stockpile.
And yes, if I want to make what I believe to be a valid point, I will crack on.


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## hovis (Mar 20, 2020)

just seen a report on sky news filming inside an Italian hospital.  any morons that thinks it's OK to ignore the governments advice needs to watch this report and have a word with themselves.


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

Slime said:



			I read the first five words ........................ that was enough for me.
No wonder people are stockpiling having read hysteria like that.
		
Click to expand...

People are stockpiling 'cos they've been listening to liar-Leader who is telling us we can get this under control in a few months. Who the hell is going to believe a word he says.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 20, 2020)




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## chrisd (Mar 20, 2020)

2blue said:



			People are stockpiling 'cos they've been listening to liar-Leader who is telling us we can get this under control in a few months. Who the hell is going to believe a word he says.
		
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All those who voted the Conservatives in to power from up north ?

Just asking !


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## Papas1982 (Mar 20, 2020)

Just seen my job is now officially classed as a key worker.

Told the kids yesterday that today was last day at school. 

devisions, decisions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240903705668595714This crisis is bringing out the worst and the best in folk.
Good luck to Britainia hotels on recruiting staff in the summer.


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			All those who voted the Conservatives in to power from up north ?

Just asking !
		
Click to expand...

Trust you to bring politics into it.....  *shameful *in this time when we need trust & understanding.


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240903705668595714This crisis is bringing out the worst and the best in folk.
Good luck to Britainia hotels on recruiting staff in the summer.

Click to expand...

Won't they just hire casual labour from over-seas?..... oh, hang-on


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2020)

2blue said:



			Trust you to bring politics into it.....  *shameful *in this time when we need trust & understanding.
		
Click to expand...

He told you he didn't want to debate it. Why do you constantly try and post up the last word?

Bluntly, you're both being pathetic. Leave it alone,


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			He told you he didn't want to debate it. Why do you constantly try and post up the last word?
Bluntly, you're both being pathetic. Leave it alone,
		
Click to expand...

So tell HIM. Hes the one keeps butting in. Sorry but this serious..... I won't be silenced as the truth needs saying. Cant be ignored during these difficult times. Bullying will not work!!


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## chrisd (Mar 20, 2020)

2blue said:



			Trust you to bring politics into it.....  *shameful *in this time when we need trust & understanding.
		
Click to expand...

Your post wasnt political at all?


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## chellie (Mar 20, 2020)

Why don't you two just give it a rest.

Take your bloody arguing to PM if need be!!!!!!!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2020)

2blue said:



			Trust you to bring politics into it.....  *shameful *in this time when we need trust & understanding.
		
Click to expand...

Eh..what are you on about.


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## Orikoru (Mar 20, 2020)

So sick of getting emails from every company under the sun about their response to Covid-19. Gaucho, Taylor Wimpey, Hermes, Hilton... piss off! I couldn't give a toss what you're doing, I'm not going anywhere anyway!


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2020)

Postman said yesterday, some people are now not accepting their post and asking for it to be return or retained by the royal mail for the time being.

Wonder if that will start causing problems for RM.


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## Lazkir (Mar 20, 2020)

As an appliance repair/supplier/installer I'm as busy as fook for the time being. But am I an essential service and will I be able to go out and do my job if we go on lockdown?
People being at home all the time possibly means appliance getting worked harder and breaking down more, which means people like me will have to go out and fix them.It's no god having all that food stockpiled if it starts defrosting because the fridge freezers knackered, or if you can't cook it because the ovens blown!
I do take all precautions, I make the customer keep their distance, and I wash my hands before and after touching anything. Hand sanitizer in the van as well.
Not sure what else I can do tbh.


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## Orikoru (Mar 20, 2020)

DRW said:



			Postman said yesterday, some people are now not accepting their post and asking for it to be return or retained by the royal mail for the time being.

Wonder if that will start causing problems for RM.
		
Click to expand...

Nah, they'll probably just bin them with all the other mail they've lost.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Eh..what are you on about.

Click to expand...

OK got it ….....missing post syndromes


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			So sick of getting emails from every company under the sun about their response to Covid-19. Gaucho, Taylor Wimpey, Hermes, Hilton... piss off! I couldn't give a toss what you're doing, I'm not going anywhere anyway!
		
Click to expand...

My favourite email I've just received this morning, Kent Police advising me that recruitment process is still continuing depsite Covid19... Interesting as I haven't applied 😂


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 20, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Nah, they'll probably just bin them with all the other mail they've lost.
		
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Our local Posties are absolutely fabulous, real links to the isolated rural community.
Mind you bacon rolls/cakes and coffees at the farmhouses are seen as the norm
One took a pre paid PO parcel from me today.


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## Twire (Mar 20, 2020)

2blue said:



			So tell HIM. Hes the one keeps butting in. Sorry but this serious..... I won't be silenced as the truth needs saying. Cant be ignored during these difficult times. Bullying will not work!!
		
Click to expand...




chrisd said:



			Your post wasnt political at all?
		
Click to expand...


Give it a rest you two. If you want to argue the toss, as suggested take it to PM, if not, just leave be.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			All those who voted the Conservatives in to power from up north ?

Just asking !
		
Click to expand...

Labour aren’t saying anything different! Though up north we seem to be carrying on as normal apart from the queues to supermarkets in a morning!


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			As an appliance repair/supplier/installer I'm as busy as fook for the time being. But am I an essential service and will I be able to go out and do my job if we go on lockdown?
People being at home all the time possibly means appliance getting worked harder and breaking down more, which means people like me will have to go out and fix them.It's no god having all that food stockpiled if it starts defrosting because the fridge freezers knackered, or if you can't cook it because the ovens blown!
I do take all precautions, I make the customer keep their distance, and I wash my hands before and after touching anything. Hand sanitizer in the van as well.
Not sure what else I can do tbh.
		
Click to expand...


Our fridge (of all things at the moment) has seen ice being built up.  So had an engg call out.   The guy visited in full PPE - face mask, gloves, boots..   I am not sure what he was expecting to solve.  He said he wanted to protect himself as he has an underlying condition.   So fair enough.


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## Lazkir (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Our fridge (of all things at the moment) has seen ice being built up.  So had an engg call out.   The guy visited in full PPE - face mask, gloves, boots..   I am not sure what he was expecting to solve.  He said he wanted to protect himself as he has an underlying condition.   So fair enough.
		
Click to expand...

There's a balance between being sensible and not scaring the hell out of your customers! 
But at least people are starting to realise the seriousness of it all now.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 20, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			So sick of getting emails from every company under the sun about their response to Covid-19. Gaucho, Taylor Wimpey, Hermes, Hilton... piss off! I couldn't give a toss what you're doing, I'm not going anywhere anyway!
		
Click to expand...

On the bright side Secret Escapes seem to have forgotten I exist.


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			On the bright side Secret Escapes seem to have forgotten I exist. 

Click to expand...

I asked Secret Escapes for a refund...  They said i should contact the hotel. 
So contacted the hotel and they shared an email they received from SE...

-x-x-x-
Dear customer,
You made the reservation via the Secret Escapes agency.

The agency has contacted our hotel to send us the cancellation policy for reservations made on their platform due to health prevention measures:

''A. Rebooking: when a customer requests a cancellation, we suggest you encourage the customer to rebook instead, or issue them with hotel credit for a future stay. Preferably, this option gives the customer the flexibility to rebook at a later date once they have greater visibility over the developments of COVID-19.

B. Insurance: it is a condition of booking on the Secret Escapes site that customers have adequate travel insurance. If they do not want to rebook, you can refer members to their travel insurer to see if they have any cover available under their travel insurance policy. You can provide a cancellation invoice to the customer for the full rate that they paid (including the commission that you paid Secret Escapes), as Secret Escapes only acted as your payment agent. Only you can provide this to the customer as you have the contract with the customer.''

Kindest regards,

-x-x-x-x-

So I asked them to provide a cancellation invoice, which they side on SE can.. 
I have mailed SE again as they have ABTA/ATOL coverage.    I am not sure why i need to use my insurance for getting this back.  I am sure they are swimming in refund request at the moment

So at the moment, its just feels like going in circles..   All I know is that the money has gone from my account 

On the other hand, EasyJet has completley forgotten about us


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 20, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			As an appliance repair/supplier/installer I'm as busy as fook for the time being. But am I an essential service and will I be able to go out and do my job if we go on lockdown?
People being at home all the time possibly means appliance getting worked harder and breaking down more, which means people like me will have to go out and fix them.It's no god having all that food stockpiled if it starts defrosting because the fridge freezers knackered, or if you can't cook it because the ovens blown!
I do take all precautions, I make the customer keep their distance, and I wash my hands before and after touching anything. Hand sanitizer in the van as well.
Not sure what else I can do tbh.
		
Click to expand...

Glad you're busy, we've been hammered by it with many agents only doing emergency work orders and them working "remotely" and many tenants returning back to their home country. It's not helped by many "self isolating" but it's ok to have the washing machine or other applinace attended to and try and stay with you as you work.
You can take precautions (Ive used hand santiser for 2 years now), but taking precautions is all you can do. It's the start of some very troubling times after the stomach punch that was B...


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## Russ_D (Mar 20, 2020)

Just been reading about the ruler, sorry "_leader" _of the free world Mr Trump refusing to refer to the Coronavirus by its name. He'd rather call it "the Chinese Virus". However, according to him, it's not racist calling it that on the basis that we use the term Chinese food all the time. The man must be going senile.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 20, 2020)

We got a lovely note from our next door neighbour's daughter, saying as the schools are closing she will have plenty of spare time, so if we need anything just to give her a call. 
Very touching  a pity she's not allowed to buy alcohol


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## Lazkir (Mar 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Glad you're busy, we've been hammered by it with many agents only doing emergency work orders and them working "remotely" and many tenants returning back to their home country. It's not helped by many "self isolating" but it's ok to have the washing machine or other applinace attended to and try and stay with you as you work.
You can take precautions (Ive used hand santiser for 2 years now), but taking precautions is all you can do. It's the start of some very troubling times after the stomach punch that was B...
		
Click to expand...

I have a few letting agents but not many due to the poor payment timescales from them, so not to affected by that. Most of my work is word of mouth built up over 25 years, plus being registered as an Age UK accredited agent helps a bit.
I do a bit of sub contracting for a bigger company to iron out any downtimes, but overall I'm nice and steady usually.
Another thing that helps is that I do all appliances from inductions hobs to built in dishwashers so I've always got something on.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			I have a few letting agents but not many due to the poor payment timescales from them, so not to affected by that. Most of my work is word of mouth built up over 25 years, plus being registered as an Age UK accredited agent helps a bit.
I do a bit of sub contracting for a bigger company to iron out any downtimes, but overall I'm nice and steady usually.
Another thing that helps is that I do all appliances from inductions hobs to built in dishwashers so I've always got something on.
		
Click to expand...

Give Mudball a cheap quote to repair his Samsung FF


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 20, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			I have a few letting agents but not many due to the poor payment timescales from them, so not to affected by that. Most of my work is word of mouth built up over 25 years, plus being registered as an Age UK accredited agent helps a bit.
I do a bit of sub contracting for a bigger company to iron out any downtimes, but overall I'm nice and steady usually.
Another thing that helps is that I do all appliances from inductions hobs to built in dishwashers so I've always got something on.
		
Click to expand...

Only things we dont do is anything gas, or system work (not that Im not qualified in them). We been dealing with property management companies for over 30 years now and we have seen the changes made in town over that time. It's now like driving at 4 am Sunday morning now getting around, but then you have more trouble parking.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

And it is the irresponsibles like Tim Martin owner of Wetherspoons chain who are really helping...not...

What is he thinking ? Because what he is saying is 'come in - we're open' HTG 

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ys-uk-pubs-will-stay-open-as-long-as-possible


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## MegaSteve (Mar 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our local Posties are absolutely fabulous, real links to the isolated rural community.
Mind you bacon rolls/cakes and coffees at the farmhouses are seen as the norm
One took a pre paid PO parcel from me today.
		
Click to expand...

We've had some great posties over the years... Sadly, some desk jockey has decided they now have to change walks every few weeks... So they don't get too familiar... Not sure that serves the community well...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Just been reading about the ruler, sorry "_leader" _of the free world Mr Trump refusing to refer to the Coronavirus by its name. He'd rather call it "the Chinese Virus". However, according to him, it's not racist calling it that on the basis that we use the term Chinese food all the time. The man must be going senile.
		
Click to expand...

In his words (and often his actions) the man is an obscenity - so much so he has his very own thread on these boards so that we can thank our lucky stars that, no matter what we might think of our political leaders, at least we don't have Trump ....

Not sure I have of late heard that much out of the weasel-mouth of Farage in the way of his obsequious sucking up to the PotUS (but that is for the Farage thread on here  )


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Your post wasn't political at all?
		
Click to expand...

CORRECT!!.....  so best you just Rock-on, as I'm busy gardening.


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## Mudball (Mar 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And it is the irresponsibles like Tim Martin owner of Wetherspoons chain who are really helping...not...

What is he thinking ? Because what he is saying is 'come in - we're open' HTG 

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ys-uk-pubs-will-stay-open-as-long-as-possible

Click to expand...

I think he is confusing his canned Brexit Message with his Corona Message..


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2020)

Well that's sobering. Not that I was drunk anyway. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240976173670322177


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 20, 2020)

Russ_D said:



			Just been reading about the ruler, sorry "_leader" _of the free world Mr Trump refusing to refer to the Coronavirus by its name. He'd rather call it "the Chinese Virus". However, according to him, it's not racist calling it that on the basis that we use the term Chinese food all the time. The man must be going senile.
		
Click to expand...

This is a bit of a fuss about little. So he called it the Chinese virus, he says because that's where it originated.
Perhaps those that are sensitive enough to be offended by this could tell us how we should really refer to the " Spanish flu" of 1918?


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2020)

Just done some online food shopping for the first time!
I ordered a chicken and an egg ............................................ I'll let you know.


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## woofers (Mar 20, 2020)

Is it correct that the majority of victims have had 'underlying health conditions' ? I think this should be published with all the statistics.

If so, surely the most sensible solution would have been to isolate anyone with a serious health condition and over a certain age. Provide necessary support, food drop offs etc.
Everyone else go about your business as normal, if you catch it, most likely it will be relatively mild and you won't notice anyway, otherwise a few days not feeling good in the majority of the rest of the cases. 
Like other viruses, it will whizz round and then fizzle out. The economy isn't disrupted, people don't lose their jobs.


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## Khamelion (Mar 20, 2020)

Had to travel to London last Saturday to install some network kit to increase our capacity to allow more people to work from home, drove down 11:30 Saturday morning, got back home 04:00hrs Sunday. Monday this week out the house at 03:30hrs and drove down to Swansea to fit out a new call centre, felt crap Monday Tuesday, Wednesday felt worse, Thursday tightness across my chest, so figured run down, or heart attack, since no tingles and tight chest is still around, going with run down, due to a lot of driving and working in a cold dusty building. 

I think this is just a cold and me feeling generally rubbish ,but to be safe I'm going to self isolate and see how it goes.


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## User62651 (Mar 20, 2020)

Sturgeon crystal clear this morning on covid19 and expected behaviour from all and particularly young folks, decent leadership and good she is in sync with Westminster. Has been a relief to see party politics largely put aside.


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## 2blue (Mar 20, 2020)

Khamelion said:



			Had to travel to London last Saturday to install some network kit to increase our capacity to allow more people to work from home, drove down 11:30 Saturday morning, got back home 04:00hrs Sunday. Monday this week out the house at 03:30hrs and drove down to Swansea to fit out a new call centre, felt crap Monday Tuesday, Wednesday felt worse, Thursday tightness across my chest, so figured run down, or heart attack, since no tingles and tight chest is still around, going with run down, due to a lot of driving and working in a cold dusty building. 

I think this is just a cold and me feeling generally rubbish ,but to be safe I'm going to self isolate and see how it goes.
		
Click to expand...

Good idea. Your Temperature is the biggest indicator I understand. The care Dave 👍👍


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## Imurg (Mar 20, 2020)

Khamelion said:



			Had to travel to London last Saturday to install some network kit to increase our capacity to allow more people to work from home, drove down 11:30 Saturday morning, got back home 04:00hrs Sunday. Monday this week out the house at 03:30hrs and drove down to Swansea to fit out a new call centre, felt crap Monday Tuesday, Wednesday felt worse, Thursday tightness across my chest, so figured run down, or heart attack, since no tingles and tight chest is still around, going with run down, due to a lot of driving and working in a cold dusty building.

I think this is just a cold and me feeling generally rubbish ,but to be safe I'm going to self isolate and see how it goes.
		
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Wise thing to do Dave.
Take it easy Mate


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I think he is confusing his canned Brexit Message with his Corona Message..
		
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And we might wonder why #10 is not criticising Martin...we might wonder - but we might guess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This is a bit of a fuss about little. So he called it the Chinese virus, he says because that's where it originated.
Perhaps those that are sensitive enough to be offended by this could tell us how we should really refer to the " Spanish flu" of 1918?
		
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Please do not try and justify Trump's weasel words on this - it becomes nobody on here to do so.  Trump's only interest in describing it so is self-serving and absolutely nothing to do with accuracy - but simply to deflect criticism from himself - criticism that he 100% merits.  Already his words are seeing attacks on Chinese in the US.  So please give with the Trump apologist rubbish.  It's disgusting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/us/politics/china-virus.html

and it's happening here also - so best not to give any legitimacy to this lest we want it to get worse.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...g-levels-of-racism-after-coronavirus-outbreak


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## yandabrown (Mar 20, 2020)

woofers said:



			Is it correct that the majority of victims have had 'underlying health conditions' ? I think this should be published with all the statistics.

If so, surely the most sensible solution would have been to isolate anyone with a serious health condition and over a certain age. Provide necessary support, food drop offs etc.
Everyone else go about your business as normal, if you catch it, most likely it will be relatively mild and you won't notice anyway, otherwise a few days not feeling good in the majority of the rest of the cases.
Like other viruses, it will whizz round and then fizzle out. The economy isn't disrupted, people don't lose their jobs.
		
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No, I don' think that is correct, most people that die will have underlying conditions, many people will still need ventilation to get them through it. Here is a good explainer:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Khamelion said:



			Had to travel to London last Saturday to install some network kit to increase our capacity to allow more people to work from home, drove down 11:30 Saturday morning, got back home 04:00hrs Sunday. Monday this week out the house at 03:30hrs and drove down to Swansea to fit out a new call centre, felt crap Monday Tuesday, Wednesday felt worse, Thursday tightness across my chest, so figured run down, or heart attack, since no tingles and tight chest is still around, going with run down, due to a lot of driving and working in a cold dusty building.

I think this is just a cold and me feeling generally rubbish ,but to be safe I'm going to self isolate and see how it goes.
		
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take care

#staysafekeepwell


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2020)

[IM


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

I'm not so sure how many understand the self isolation thing. Read a guy saying he had no symptoms but had decided to self isolate as he had underlying health issues. It seems to me they(he) think a couple of weeks in the house and everything will be rosy in the garden. 

My understanding of it all is, if you have under lying health issues you are at high risk for the duration not just a couple of weeks stuck in the house.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 20, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm not so sure how many understand the self isolation thing. Read a guy saying he had no symptoms but had decided to self isolate as he had underlying health issues. It seems to me they(he) think a couple of weeks in the house and everything will be rosy in the garden.

My understanding of it all is, *if you have under lying health issues you are at high risk for the duration *not just a couple of weeks stuck in the house.
		
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Yep that's my understanding as well. Mrs Colch has severe asthma, so is in one of the at risk groups, so she's isolating at home with the kids. I'm offshore but will also be isolating with them once I get back home. We've decided that it will be 4 weeks as an absolute minimum and in all likelihood will be 12 weeks or more.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2020)

From reading a few posts on here and also on social media regarding going on holiday or not, it is amazing how many people do not understand the concept of sunk costs and the way it can skew sensible decision making.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			From reading a few posts on here and also on social media regarding going on holiday or not, it is amazing how many people do not understand the concept of sunk costs and the way it can skew sensible decision making.
		
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Quite - if I have spent £2000 on a holiday in Greece in first week of June and it's cancelled, and for whatever reason I don't get my money back - all that I have actually lost is my holiday in Greece.  Come second week of June my bank balance would be £2000 down whether I went on holiday or not.   In current circumstances I will simply accept the disappointment of not having a holiday in Greece.  But that is all it is.  A disappointment.  And I have other bigger things to worry about that will make that disappointment pretty easy to put aside.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite - if I have spent £2000 on a holiday in Greece in first week of June and it's cancelled, and for whatever reason I don't get my money back - all that I have actually lost is my holiday in Greece.  Come second week of June my bank balance would be £2000 down whether I went on holiday or not.   In current circumstances I will simply accept the disappointment of not having a holiday in Greece.  But that is all it is.  A disappointment.  And I have other bigger things to worry about that will make that disappointment pretty easy to put aside.
		
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Thats all well and good in business, or to adults who can understand the logic.
What about the families who save every penny to take their kids on a holiday only for it to be cancelled. if they don’t get the money back then that’s either kids gutted or the family are 2k off as they somehow get the money together but struggle elsewhere. 

i accept right now that a holiday is a luxury, but imo it’s fanciful to not accept that some people will take risks where finances are concerned.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 20, 2020)

woofers said:



			Like other viruses, it will whizz round and then fizzle out. The economy isn't disrupted, people don't lose their jobs.
		
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Sadly you are very wrong. People are losing their jobs and the economy is going to be hurt very hard.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Thats all well and good in business, or to adults who can understand the logic.
*What about the families who save every penny to take their kids on a holiday only for it to be cancelled. if they don’t get the money back then that’s either kids gutted or the family are 2k off as they somehow get the money together but struggle elsewhere.*

i accept right now that a holiday is a luxury, but imo it’s fanciful to not accept that some people will take risks where finances are concerned.
		
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This is not to do with getting money back as everyone should get the money back if they can not go due to the current circumstances, so I am not saying people should not get their money back and apologies if it came across like that. But as you know, the whole point of a sunk cost is that you don't get it back whether you go on holiday or not if you can't get a refund fro the company you booked it with. So when people say they have paid and despite all advice not to go, say they will as they have already paid, that is my issue.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			This is not to do with getting money back as everyone should get the money back if they can not go due to the current circumstances, so I am not saying people should not get their money back and apologies if it came across like that. But as you know, *the whole point of a sunk cost is that you don't get it back whether you go on holiday or not if you can't get a refund fro the company you booked it with*. So when people say they have paid and despite all advice not to go, say they will as they have already paid, that is my issue.
		
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Exactly.  It's very disappointing I know, but we are heading for the land of very distressing...we really need to understand - and explain to children where that's needed - the difference between disappointing and distressing - between what _*really *_matters and what doesn't.

If I find that I can't play my course all summer then that is going to be disappointing - but equally it's not the end of the world.  All I've lost is a load of golf.  It's sunk cost.  I've not lost money - I've lost golf.  I can cope with that.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Exactly.  It's very disappointing I know, but we are heading for the land of very distressing...we really need to understand - and explain to children where that's needed - the difference between disappointing and distressing - between what _*really *_matters and what doesn't.

If I find that I can't play my course all summer then that is going to be disappointing - but equally it's not the end of the world.  All I've lost is a load of golf.  It's sunk cost.  I've not lost money - I've lost golf.  I can cope with that.
		
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Im sure long term my kids appreciate they’re are a lot of people worse of than us. That doesn’t imo lessen their disappointment about our holiday being cancelled. Nor should it. I don’t really live by the mantra of “there are people worse off than is, so count yourself lucky”

My point was simply that the term sunk costs isn’t really one you’d attribute to this scenario, at least not with children. 



Hacker Khan said:



			This is not to do with getting money back as everyone should get the money back if they can not go due to the current circumstances, so I am not saying people should not get their money back and apologies if it came across like that. But as you know, the whole point of a sunk cost is that you don't get it back whether you go on holiday or not if you can't get a refund fro the company you booked it with. So when people say they have paid and despite all advice not to go, say they will as they have already paid, that is my issue.
		
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That’s fair. 

I totally agree that those saying they will just go need to give their heads a wobble. Especially as the one in question had some strong opinions on people at apparent health risks not following the advice they were given.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

..and in the same vein - if you employ - say - a cleaner for a day a week - a tutor - or a piano or other instrument teacher - a window cleaner or gardener once a month - if you are still getting your normal income then consider paying these individuals... you are not getting their services - but you would have spent the money anyway - and you are helping to keep your cleaner/window cleaner/gardener/teacher and their family going through this time.


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

Sports Direct gyms , have just announced as a result of Covid19 any staff on Zero hours contracts will no longer have any shifts from Monday so there's a load of jobs literally just disappeared as thats how most of their staff work with the odd exception and  managers. 

Any permanent staff that fall into the at risk category have been sent home but are having to take the isolation period out of their holiday entitlements then go on SSP only as they don't pay sick pay. Any staff that may fall ill and then have to isolate will be made to do the same.. 

Yet depsite this they're keeping gyms open Mon-Fri 6am-10pm, Sat & Sun 8am-8pm.. The problem this causes Mrs Wolf is she is one of only 4 permanently employed staff still able to work at her gym so between them they've got to cover all shifts for 7 days, which is difficult because by industry guidelines they have to alway have 2 people in the building so all 4 of them would have to in theory work 7 days a week for the foreseeable future to stay open.


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## Robster59 (Mar 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please do not try and justify Trump's weasel words on this - it becomes nobody on here to do so.  Trump's only interest in describing it so is self-serving and absolutely nothing to do with accuracy - but simply to deflect criticism from himself - criticism that he 100% merits.  Already his words are seeing attacks on Chinese in the US.  So please give with the Trump apologist rubbish.  It's disgusting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/us/politics/china-virus.html

and it's happening here also - so best not to give any legitimacy to this lest we want it to get worse.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...g-levels-of-racism-after-coronavirus-outbreak

Click to expand...

I totally agree.  There is absolutely no earthly reason why he should refer to it as the Chinese virus other than a racist attempt to deflect the attention from his own inadequacies and misleading information.  The man bounces around like a rubber ball and contradicts himself on numerous occasions but continues to get away with it, which does, sadly, say an awful lot about how insular Americans are. 
There's an interesting article here on the timeline of Trumps comments on Covid-19.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/timeline-trump-covid19-responses/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

And also...as posted elsewhere Mrs Hogie works for a major Cancer Charity (on their Helpline).  The charity is very concerned about the fall-off in income they are likely to see with so many events being cancelled - both their own fundraising but also all of those events where participants raise money for charities.  

At this time the NHS and the country as a whole is going to depend massively on the health charities taking a load off the NHS to enable the NHS to do what it is going to have to do.  In my wife's case the team she is in has seen a huge increase in calls to the Helpline as patients struggle to get through to their cancer nursing team - the nurses are either swamped by calls, or response is being limited as some specialist cancer nurses are getting training for what where they will be deployed.  

But the charities cannot survive on fresh air - and at the moment it looks like my wife will get paid until end April after which there is no guarantee.  Now it is quite likely that my wife and at least some of her her colleagues will continue to work on the Helpline unpaid if that is what transpires. 

So my exhortation is that if you were sponsoring someone in an event and they were doing it for a charity - then donate or give them the sponsorship money in any case.  If you weren't then perhaps consider - if you can afford it - doing a donation (one off or regular) to one or more of the health charities - specifically those that provide helpline support - given they need to keep going to help the NHS cope.   

My wife is in remission from breast cancer - you can probably work out the charity she works for.  But any will do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I totally agree.  There is absolutely no earthly reason why he should refer to it as the Chinese virus other than a racist attempt to deflect the attention from his own inadequacies and misleading information.  The man bounces around like a rubber ball and contradicts himself on numerous occasions but continues to get away with it, which does, sadly, say an awful lot about how insular Americans are.
There's an interesting article here on the timeline of Trumps comments on Covid-19.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/timeline-trump-covid19-responses/

Click to expand...

If Trump _really _wanted precision or accuracy in his referencing it then he could have called it the Wuhan Virus.  But you know what - that just wouldn't cut it for him  - and it doesn't take much to work out why


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2020)

Saw a good quote the other day about pandemics in that in the run up to its peak most initiatives are seen as unnecessary, panicking and draconian and then after its peak looking back, most of the initiatives that were taken are seen as inadequate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Saw a good quote the other day about pandemics in that in the run up to its peak most initiatives are seen as unnecessary, panicking and draconian and then after its peak looking back, most of the initiatives that were taken are seen as inadequate.
		
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..but sadly we can suspect what the current doubters and sceptics will say if the suppression measures are successful and the 'explosion' in cases doesn't happen as it might...


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 20, 2020)

Would it be acceptable to contract Covid-19 and then go and cough all over Piers Morgan?     Asking for a friend.


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Would it be acceptable to contract Covid-19 and then go and cough all over Piers Morgan?     Asking for a friend.
		
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Just go and rub Caneston cream all over him I've heard that works on thrush....


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## Robster59 (Mar 20, 2020)

For Piers Morgan I'd have thought Anusol as it's good for a pain in the a***


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## drdel (Mar 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Saw a good quote the other day about pandemics in that in the run up to its peak most initiatives are seen as unnecessary, panicking and draconian and then after its peak looking back, most of the initiatives that were taken are seen as inadequate.
		
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Its how people cope - Post Event Rationalisation (PER). Like if you cause/have a car accident by the time you get home, or fill out the insurance form you will have found some reason why it was the other person's fault. The 'wisdom' of hindsight is a wonderful thing but not always accurate.


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## bobmac (Mar 20, 2020)

For those of you who are working from home, would you consider doing it after the virus threat has subsided?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			For those of you who are working from home, would you consider doing it after the virus threat has subsided?
		
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It's my normal.  So being in the house (I actually work at the bottom of our garden in our garden studio) all day by myself doesn't bother me.  After all - I've got 'internet friends' to talk to - and our two cats


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## IanM (Mar 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			For those of you who are working from home, would you consider doing it after the virus threat has subsided?
		
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I have worked Monday and Fridays from home for the past couple of years......  in my sort of role, no reason not too in a modern office.  I live 125 miles from the office and stay in a hotel two nights a week.  Currently, being home all week and no driving is excellent, saves time, money and it's green.   We have video conf on MS Teams, all files are on Office 365 so easy access... it's all good!  

One of my colleagues is a work-nut who thinks he has to be seen at his desk till they lock the doors...... why?


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2020)

The figures just announced for Spain are frightening. Bearing in mind, the lockdown etc the number of deaths has just jumped past the 1,000 - think that's a massive jump on yesterday's figure. However, a glimmer of light for those still with us. The number of confirmed cases has only increased by 16%, compared with 25% yesterday.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2020)

Some real scum out there 😠




Important Information:

There has been an incident in Greenhill, Herne Bay this morning:

Two men dressed in suits saying they are from the NHS and wanting to take temperatures. Whilst they are taking the persons temperature, someone is going around the back to enter the property.

If you have encountered these people, please call the Police immediately.


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## bobmac (Mar 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Some real scum out there 😠




Important Information:

There has been an incident in Greenhill, Herne Bay this morning:

Two men dressed in suits saying they are from the NHS and wanting to take temperatures. Whilst they are taking the persons temperature, someone is going around the back to enter the property.

If you have encountered these people, please call the Police immediately.
		
Click to expand...

It's only a matter of time before these people start breaking into shops


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			For those of you who are working from home, would you consider doing it after the virus threat has subsided?
		
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In process of changing jobs and new one isn't possible to work from home but I'm glad of that. I don't like working from home I don't feel productive and a lot of my work involves social and physical interaction which only so much can be conveyed in words or video


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## williamalex1 (Mar 20, 2020)

After a week lock down in  a Tenerife hotel my mate has finally got a flight home, guess what, he has to self isolate


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2020)

IanM said:



			I have worked Monday and Fridays from home for the past couple of years......  in my sort of role, no reason not too in a modern office.  I live 125 miles from the office and stay in a hotel two nights a week.  Currently, being home all week and no driving is excellent, saves time, money and it's green.   We have video conf on MS Teams, all files are on Office 365 so easy access... it's all good! 

One of my colleagues is a work-nut who thinks he has to be seen at his desk till they lock the doors...... why?
		
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Very similar here, worked mostly from home for 15 odd years now, office 60 odd miles away, saved a vast amount of wasted time commuting, diesel etc, was around as my daughter grew up, able to get into the fields/countryside to walk the dog within 30 seconds of leaving my front door. You could double my wage and if it involved commuting into an office I'd decline.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

In an attempt to lift my spirits a bit...

I stuck on the BR DVD of the 2012 Olympics Opening Ceremony.  Oh joys and the thrill of that evening.  Actually brought more than one tear to my eyes and a big lump in the throat - both on how fabulous it was and the memories of the fortnight - but also reflecting on how the country has been so split since then, and of where we are today.

But if you can find it somewhere I can recommend it when feeling really down.  Fortunately there are another 4 DVDs of highlights...


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## Crazyface (Mar 20, 2020)

chellie said:



			So you are travelling to a random course and possibly spreading the virus around

Click to expand...

Seriously?????? So I have to play at my "home" course? Which I might add is further, in fact twice the distance! You're being silly now. I don't have the virus. Please do go all Galaxy Quest on me either. For those who have never seen this.   "IS IT SAFE!!!!!! YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!"  I do and I am.

Just to add. The course in question has had a member go down with the virus and have closed the clubhouse as instructed. Car park was rammed by the time we left. No one was bothered. Flags left in. Cups in holes turned upside down so golf balls didn't actually go below ground level. No hand shakes. Ball washers covered. No rakes. All gates open. All very organised and precautionary. I felt very safe and comfortable.  Shot 83. Greens were top.


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In an attempt to lift my spirits a bit...

I stuck on the DVD of the 2012 Olympics Opening Ceremony.  Oh joys and the thrill of that evening.  Actually brought more than one tear to my eyes and a big lump in the throat - both on how fabulous it was and the memories of the fortnight - but also reflecting on how the country has shattered since then and of where we are today.

But if you can find it somewhere I can recommend it when feeling really down.  Fortunately there are another 4 DVDs of highlights...
		
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Great minds think alike. We went to the para-Olympics that year, and I watched the dvd a few days back. I was mightily impressed with the blind footballers. And the following year the company had the England Captain as an inspirational speaker. Wow!


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## Crazyface (Mar 20, 2020)

Be sensible. And take the relevant precautions. All will be well.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			It's only a matter of time before these people start breaking into shops  

Click to expand...

They have, local farm shop had all its meat nicked last night.


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2020)

Valencia region announces its building 3 field hospitals, to be completed in the next 2 weeks. Total number of beds to be 1000. Apart from them being huge tented villages its intended that they will include a significant number of single bed(isolation) tents. All are to be built near large hotels that will house the staff for the hospitals.


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## Italian outcast (Mar 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The figures just announced for Spain are frightening. Bearing in mind, the lockdown etc the number of deaths has just jumped past the 1,000 - think that's a massive jump on yesterday's figure. However, a glimmer of light for those still with us. The number of confirmed cases has only increased by 16%, compared with 25% yesterday.
		
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I think it will take time before lockdown slows down deaths
as you say the reduction in case number increases - or the_* slope*_ of confirmed disease will fall first 
Hopefully that will reduce the hospital burden etc and then more critical cases may recover etc
So - there will be an lag for any impact on deaths - thats to be expected
I hope so - i'm reading the Italy figures the same way (but lets see what the next numbers are)


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 20, 2020)

Sunshine today cold breeze though.
Made some sandwiches and took my beloved down the coast nice we seclude bit.
First time she's been out for a few weeks.

The scum are scum and have been getting away with fleecing pensioners and vulnerable people long before this virus hit. They go to court and a lawyer turns them into the victims.


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## Andy (Mar 20, 2020)

woofers said:



			Is it correct that the majority of victims have had 'underlying health conditions' ? I think this should be published with all the statistics.

If so, surely the most sensible solution would have been to isolate anyone with a serious health condition and over a certain age. Provide necessary support, food drop offs etc.
Everyone else go about your business as normal, if you catch it, most likely it will be relatively mild and you won't notice anyway, otherwise a few days not feeling good in the majority of the rest of the cases. 
Like other viruses, it will whizz round and then fizzle out. The economy isn't disrupted, people don't lose their jobs.
		
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Utter gash.


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## Andy (Mar 20, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Sunshine today cold breeze though.
Made some sandwiches and took my beloved down the coast nice we seclude bit.
First time she's been out for a few weeks.

The scum are scum and have been getting away with fleecing pensioners and vulnerable people long before this virus hit. They go to court and a lawyer turns them into the victims.
		
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Eh?


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2020)

WOW, 80% of wages upto £2500 per month, wages to be covered by government, if not working due to virus.

Great offer by government.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 20, 2020)

Forced to go to the supermarket this morning, took all the precautions. Instead of gloves I used our dogs [ unused ] poo bags, wore my Snood, and kept my distances and applied hand sanitiser when I took of the poo bags .
Sadly not a toilet roll in site at 8.30 am , but the good news is my new smart bidet toilet is up and running, can't wait to have a poo and try it out


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## MegaSteve (Mar 20, 2020)

I can see London in lockdown within days... Probably using the M25 as the perimeter...


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## DRW (Mar 20, 2020)

Did he mean all clubs, or nightclubs to close from this evening ?


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## Italian outcast (Mar 20, 2020)

In Italy 
47,021 cases - 5,986 new cases in past 24 hours
4,032 deaths - 627 new deaths in past 24 hours


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

DRW said:



			Did he mean all clubs, or nightclubs to close from this evening ?
		
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That's what my understanding is, along with Gyms.. The 80% of wages is a bonus


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 20, 2020)

Pubs, clubs, restaurants to shut tonight. About time. I’ll get my last pint in later. I’d buy your booze tonight before that gets panic bought!


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## hovis (Mar 20, 2020)

am i hearing this right.  People will get 80% of their wages and be able to sit at home?   I'll take it😂


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## Dando (Mar 20, 2020)

Are strip clubs allowed to stay open?
Asking for a friend


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 20, 2020)

That speech by the Chancellor was clear and, if I may say, inspiring. If these proposed actions can and will be implemented then this government is to be given credit for trying to do the right thing.
And, thinking of that, we cannot really expect  any more than someone trying to do that.
Best of luck to them - and to us.


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## hovis (Mar 20, 2020)

Dando said:



			Are strip clubs allowed to stay open?
Asking for a friend
		
Click to expand...

😂😅😊


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## patricks148 (Mar 20, 2020)

never thought i'd say it but by the looks of things the Chancellor has pulled it out the hat on this one... well done Rishi


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## IanM (Mar 20, 2020)

I am getting increasingly hacked off with the dumbo questions the press are getting away with.  The Sky News bloke right now needs a smack in the gob!


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## Kellfire (Mar 20, 2020)

More clarity needed over zero hours contracts.


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## Andy (Mar 20, 2020)

Dando said:



			Are strip clubs allowed to stay open?
Asking for a friend
		
Click to expand...

As long as you don't touch.


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## Dando (Mar 20, 2020)

Andy said:



			As long as you don't touch.
		
Click to expand...

That’s no fun.... according to my friend


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## Andy (Mar 20, 2020)

Dando said:



			That’s no fun
		
Click to expand...

Better than a kicking off the bouncers lol

Or just goto Play park in Prague, all good there lol


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

Dando said:



			That’s no fun.... according to my friend
		
Click to expand...

My friend says they're accepting contactless payments though


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## Andy (Mar 20, 2020)

Wolf said:



			My friend says they're accepting contactless payments though
		
Click to expand...

Where's the card reader though? Lol


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

Anyone watching the BBC news just see the guy dressed as a Pirate wearing a plague mask strolling about in the background at Leicester Square 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			More clarity needed over zero hours contracts.
		
Click to expand...

not quite sure how it’ll work unless employers are asked to provide monthly average wage over a period for all zero hrs employees.  My son is on a zero hrs contract for part of his income - he normally gets £1000 a month but last year didn’t get paid anything at all for two and a bit summer months...the rest of his income was sole trader income and so I guess he gets covered for loss of that through UC

hopefully the tour management companies may now be able to pay my son some sort of retainer given their permanent staff with get paid through government grant.  They might be able to take one of the interest free loans to cover the 20% not covered by the grant and pay my son a retainer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			never thought i'd say it but by the looks of things the Chancellor has pulled it out the hat on this one... well done Rishi
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think they had a lot of choice tbh...but fair does.


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2020)

In the last week we've had two police officers die from the virus. Both in their 30's, and both WITHOUT any underlying conditions. Bearing in mind the lockdown, and the vast majority of the general population has been at home, its very sobering to see that healthy guys have succumbed to this.


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## Kraxx68 (Mar 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			In the last week we've had two police officers die from the virus. Both in their 30's, and both WITHOUT any underlying conditions. Bearing in mind the lockdown, and the vast majority of the general population has been at home, its very sobering to see that healthy guys have succumbed to this.
		
Click to expand...

Hey Bri, stay safe... we have plenty of new rules to keep us safe at Matfen Hall. Hopefully if people are sensible we should... be safe.  Take care of yourself and the rest of the Monthly family


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2020)

Kraxx68 said:



			Hey Bri, stay safe... we have plenty of new rules to keep us safe at Matfen Hall. Hopefully if people are sensible we should... be safe.  Take care of yourself and the rest of the Monthly family
		
Click to expand...

You too Stu. Our rules come with fines. So far, just under 30,000 in 6 days. The fine for having two people in a car went up last night from €600 to €1000. And its been zero tolerance since Monday.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			More clarity needed over zero hours contracts.
		
Click to expand...

I’d imagine they’ll be paid as per holiday pay. Average of previous 12 Weeks.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 20, 2020)

Dando said:



			Are strip clubs allowed to stay open?
Asking for a friend
		
Click to expand...

If they stop doing cash .its tap not swipe    Tap means the card nothing else . 😜 glad to help


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 20, 2020)

IanM said:



			I am getting increasingly hacked off with the dumbo questions the press are getting away with.  The Sky News bloke right now needs a smack in the gob!
		
Click to expand...

Not as bad as the lady from the Daily Mail who was looking for Boris to say something about Italy so they could put some apocalyptic headline on the paper tomorrow.  But then again what did I expect from that rag.


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## larmen (Mar 20, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			In Italy 
47,021 cases - 5,986 new cases in past 24 hours
4,032 deaths - 627 new deaths in past 24 hours
		
Click to expand...

Do Italians have a different lifestyle which makes the virus more dangerous to them? Maybe panic buying pasta is not the right thing to do.

Seriously, do they smoke more? Or drink more?


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## SteveJay (Mar 20, 2020)

larmen said:



			Do Italians have a different lifestyle which makes the virus more dangerous to them? Maybe panic buying pasta is not the right thing to do.

Seriously, do they smoke more? Or drink more?
		
Click to expand...

Don't they have the highest percentage of elderly citizens compared to other countries? I thought that was driving the numbers. Sobering to hear today that the over 80's have a 1 in 12 chance of dying if they contract it.


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## Kraxx68 (Mar 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You too Stu. Our rules come with fines. So far, just under 30,000 in 6 days. The fine for having two people in a car went up last night from €600 to €1000. And its been zero tolerance since Monday.
		
Click to expand...

Wow, I can see why they are taking this so seriously, I just seen Spain's numbers, over 1k dead now!!! rather worrying for all of us... hopefully with Social Distancing, things may slow down/stop eventually - We've been told to go to work as normal, but no meetings and we have to sit 2 meters away from anyone... the only poeple who work form home, are thoise with Asthma and kidz... unless you have to self isolate... 

Stay safe my friend


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

In 30 years of being self employed this is the first time I've wished I was employed.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 20, 2020)

I walked my dog alone tonight and saw 10 boys playing football on the local Astro.
Seems some parents aren’t taking the threat seriously


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I walked my dog alone tonight and saw 10 boys playing football on the local Astro.
Seems some parents aren’t taking the threat seriously
		
Click to expand...

They will within a couple of weeks when the UK will be reporting thousands of deaths, I suspect around 5000 before the end of the month.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Some real scum out there 😠




Important Information:

There has been an incident in Greenhill, Herne Bay this morning:

Two men dressed in suits saying they are from the NHS and wanting to take temperatures. Whilst they are taking the persons temperature, someone is going around the back to enter the property.

If you have encountered these people, please call the Police immediately.
		
Click to expand...

Penalties for this sort of thing during a national emergency should be trebled .
And tell everyone in the nick what they did.


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## bobmac (Mar 20, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			They will within a couple of weeks when the UK will be reporting thousands of deaths, I suspect around 5000 before the end of the month.
		
Click to expand...

So far, the UK has had 184 deaths since the Coronavirus hit and you are suggesting that total will rise to 5,000 in the next 10 days?


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## hovis (Mar 20, 2020)

it won't be long before vigilantes start getting involved with social gatherings. there was a massive row tonight in Lichfield when punters were trying to get their last few pints in.  pathetic


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## chrisd (Mar 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don’t think they had a lot of choice tbh...but fair does.
		
Click to expand...

Not bad for a newbie in the job


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## Hobbit (Mar 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			it won't be long before vigilantes start getting involved with social gatherings. there was a massive row tonight in Lichfield when punters were trying to get their last few pints in.  pathetic
		
Click to expand...

The Spanish are far more civilised. Earlier today I went to the supermarket. They only allow a small number in the supermarket at any one time. I was in the queue outside, last person. Up walks a guy who obviously knew the guy in front of me. Conversation starts up with me in between. I go full on Spanglish and offer to swap places with the guy behind me so that they can converse easier. No he wasn't having it. My place was in front of him... but it did lead to a really good Spanish/English/Spanglish conversation.

I must say, we didn't do the Spanish hug thing!


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			They will within a couple of weeks when the UK will be reporting thousands of deaths, *I suspect around 5000 before the end of the month.*

Click to expand...

Wow, that's one audacious claim. What are you basing your figures on?


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## robinthehood (Mar 20, 2020)

Slime said:



			Wow, that's one audacious claim. What are you basing your figures on?
		
Click to expand...

Facebook and the daily mail.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 20, 2020)

This could probably go in the random irritations, but interested in opinions.

We have two sales girls in the office. Both if which do very little, but as one flirts with the both and the other is dating a well respected guy in the office it seems that its fine. Anyways, i digress.

They've both been told to work from home, which basically means we will be making our own cups of tea. They have both though kept their kids in school as they claim to be Key workers. Stating they work as freight forwarders. 

I may have annoyed said colleague who's dating one when i called her a few choice names....


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## IanM (Mar 20, 2020)

Oh well...bar and restaurant closed at golf club. Lots of sad posts on social media and emails from fav bars and restaurants. 

Feels weird...and very sad.  Hope its it's over soon


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## AmandaJR (Mar 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			This could probably go in the random irritations, but interested in opinions.

We have two sales girls in the office. Both if which do very little, but as one flirts with the both and the other is dating a well respected guy in the office it seems that its fine. Anyways, i digress.

They've both been told to work from home, which basically means we will be making our own cups of tea. They have both though kept their kids in school as they claim to be Key workers. Stating they work as freight forwarders.

I may have annoyed said colleague who's dating one when i called her a few choice names....

Click to expand...

I know what I'd call them..."selfish, self-centered, idle cows"...or similar!


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## Papas1982 (Mar 20, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I know what I'd call them..."selfish, self-centered, idle cows"...or similar!
		
Click to expand...

Along with hypocrite after she's spent the last week complaining that she's only got 24 toilet rolls in her house (for her and a 9 yr old)


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## User62651 (Mar 20, 2020)

Only been a few days and I already wish they could put me in a medically induced coma like they do for space travel in the sci-fi movies until this all blows over. Feels a bit like being in a sci-fi movie, a bit surreal.

Think the 12 week thing is nonsense given projected spread, they'll get to mid June then it'll be another 4 weeks, then another 4 etc, Bojo has to give us something tangible to cling onto as our tiny minds can't cope otherwise.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Only been a few days and I already wish they could put me in a medically induced coma like they do for space travel in the sci-fi movies until this all blows over. Feels a bit like being in a sci-fi movie, a bit surreal.

Think the 12 week thing is nonsense given projected spread, they'll get to mid June then it'll be another 4 weeks, then another 4 etc, Bojo has to give us something tangible to cling onto as our tiny minds can't cope otherwise.

Click to expand...

I've resurrected my Kindle and my joy of reading.


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

This from earlier I know i posted about it but seeing it again made me want to share it in all its glory 😂


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## Kraxx68 (Mar 20, 2020)

As Green Day sang... wake me up when September Comes...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 20, 2020)

Kraxx68 said:



			As Green Day sang... wake me up when September Comes...
		
Click to expand...

When September ends


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 20, 2020)

Seen this and thought it was interesting.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			This could probably go in the random irritations, but interested in opinions.

We have two sales girls in the office. Both if which do very little, but as one flirts with the both and the other is dating a well respected guy in the office it seems that its fine. Anyways, i digress.

They've both been told to work from home, which basically means we will be making our own cups of tea. They have both though kept their kids in school as they claim to be Key workers. Stating they work as freight forwarders.

I may have annoyed said colleague who's dating one when i called her a few choice names....

Click to expand...

It gets worse.

Just found out her mum is a nurse. So guess who's going shopping early Sunday morning.....


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## robinthehood (Mar 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Seen this and thought it was interesting.

View attachment 29426

Click to expand...

Then everyone comes out of hiding and were back where we started.


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

Slime said:



			Wow, that's one audacious claim. What are you basing your figures on?
		
Click to expand...

Italy's model. You fancy taking the bet ?


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So far, the UK has had 184 deaths since the Coronavirus hit and you are suggesting that total will rise to 5,000 in the next 10 days?
		
Click to expand...

14 days ago, Italy had less than 100 deaths, they're now over 4000 and acted quicker and better than we have. Mark my words, the numbers will go through the roof in the next two weeks.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 20, 2020)

Couldn’t get any surface cleaner, genuinely ran out. Every time I have been out I have looked for it ... well the once anyway that I had to go out.
Anyway was looking through assorted cleaning products... Dettol mildew spray, bleach solution that kills 99.9% of bacteria and viruses.. looks like a damn good stand in! Everything will stink of bleach though.


----------



## User62651 (Mar 20, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			14 days ago, Italy had less than 100 deaths, they're now over 4000 and acted quicker and better than we have. Mark my words, the numbers will go through the roof in the next two weeks.
		
Click to expand...

Is it not more common in Italy for one family house that all generations live in so spread to elderly/vulnerable is easier? Old people here tend to live apart from their children and grandchildren so it may be easier to isolate themselves from infection. Just wondering.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 20, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Is it not more common in Italy for one family house that all generations live in so spread to elderly/vulnerable is easier? Old people here tend to live apart from their children and grandchildren so it may be easier to isolate themselves from infection. Just wondering.
		
Click to expand...

I heard it spread quickly because they had a lot of tourists and there is a tendency to return home at the weekend to the family home.. mix that with a very tactile society, and one that smokes.. it’s just a case of looking at behaviour. The English are quite anti social but the panic buying has caused the mass infection.


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Facebook and the daily mail.
		
Click to expand...

The daily mail ! Wash your mouth out when addressing me in that manner.


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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Is it not more common in Italy for one family house that all generations live in so spread to elderly/vulnerable is easier? Old people here tend to live apart from their children and grandchildren so it may be easier to isolate themselves from infection. Just wondering.
		
Click to expand...

OK, lets just ignore Italy then, how about Spain having less than 50 deaths just a week ago, now well over 1000. 

I'm not saying I know better than anyone else but I've been keeping a very close eye on this for a lot longer than it seems most of you have. Not two weeks ago my son was poo pooing it and I told him I have a bad feeling about this. 

It seems to me people are only in the past few days actually listening to what has been getting said for weeks if not months. You just got to hear what Sturgeon said two weeks ago, life is going to change very considerably for all of us in the coming months were her words, no one took any notice, cause...well it was Italy's problem, life was just carrying on wasn't it. 

I will be more than happy to be proved wrong.


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## hairball_89 (Mar 20, 2020)

I’ve stayed out of this thread until now. Probably a misplaced arrogance of youth (I’m 30) and living in relatively rural Kent imagined nothing bad will come my way...

I work in theatre. I’m a sound engineer mainly. Tuesday my theatre closed until further notice. Luckily it’s council run so we started our summer maintenance early, but knowing essentially that when we run out of jobs (keeping an 80 year old building standing and working) we may be redeployed to areas with more need in the council.

Today we were all asked if anyone wanted to go and join the crematorium team as a cremator. We all said no. I couldn't think of anything worse.

I've a week of annual leave next week. The mrs and I were due to be on the beach 1500 miles away today and for the next week.

I don't think I've ever felt so low in a job I adore. But yet, Currently all I can be thankful for is that I'm still in a job. The number of friends I have in touring/freelance roles who had work lined up to the end of the year that has disappeared...


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## Wolf (Mar 20, 2020)

hairball_89 said:



			I’ve stayed out of this thread until now. Probably a misplaced arrogance of youth (I’m 30) and living in relatively rural Kent imagined nothing bad will come my way...

I work in theatre. I’m a sound engineer mainly. Tuesday my theatre closed until further notice. Luckily it’s council run so we started our summer maintenance early, but knowing essentially that when we run out of jobs (keeping an 80 year old building standing and working) we may be redeployed to areas with more need in the council.

Today we were all asked if anyone wanted to go and join the crematorium team as a cremator. We all said no. I couldn't think of anything worse.

I've a week of annual leave next week. The mrs and I were due to be on the beach 1500 miles away today and for the next week.

I don't think I've ever felt so low in a job I adore. But yet, Currently all I can be thankful for is that I'm still in a job. The number of friends I have in touring/freelance roles who had work lined up to the end of the year that has disappeared...
		
Click to expand...

What part of Kent do you class as relatively rural?.

They've had confirmed deaths of it in Medway & William Harvey hospitals in last 24hrs, several confirmed cases of having it in Maidstone and the images I'm seeing from family shows Kent is suffering from it like everywhere else.


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Italy's model. You fancy taking the bet ?
		
Click to expand...

I don't mind the occasional bet, but I'm not betting on how many people will die ..................... that would just feel wrong, sorry.


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2020)




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## User20204 (Mar 20, 2020)

Just back looking at dates, around the 25th February I had concerns about activities I attend at our club during the week where we have a games night(table tennis/darts/dominoes etc etc) It troubled me then about the sharing of all these things and at that point the UK had no deaths and only 5 confirmed cases. Fast forward to now and things have barely got started.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I know what I'd call them..."selfish, self-centered, idle cows"...or similar!
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes amanda you are to kind with your words. send me a pm if you want to learn a few choice words that would be more appropriate.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			OK, lets just ignore Italy then, how about Spain having less than 50 deaths just a week ago, now well over 1000. 

I'm not saying I know better than anyone else but I've been keeping a very close eye on this for a lot longer than it seems most of you have. Not two weeks ago my son was poo pooing it and I told him I have a bad feeling about this. 

It seems to me people are only in the past few days actually listening to what has been getting said for weeks if not months. You just got to hear what Sturgeon said two weeks ago, life is going to change very considerably for all of us in the coming months were her words, no one took any notice, cause...well it was Italy's problem, life was just carrying on wasn't it. 

I will be more than happy to be proved wrong.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of what you said I totally agree with. Not sure that Italy is dealing with it better than the UK.. Only time will tell. Italy's average age is a massive factor. I said a month ago a poo storm was coming. I feel we are only seeing dark clouds at the moment with worse to come. A lot worse.  Unfortunately having pals in Italy who personally told me what they were going through gave me an insight I would not sooner of heard, but helped me prepare. If you want (the forum) a first class account of what is going on in Italy ask Italian outcast. If memory serves me right the poor sod is in the thick of it near Bergamo. It may not make pleasant reading  but just may well open up a few folks eyes.
Thoughts with you at the moment  Italian Outcast


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

Very welcome news from the government for my wife and the charity helpline.  At 80% grant the charity will be able to keep the helpline going as far as staff costs are concerned - perhaps the charity will be able to take a government loan to top up - but not sure that charities are able to take out loans or indeed whether they would see themselves able to pay it back.  Obviously though charities continue to need our support for all their other research activities.  But nevertheless good news.

Still trying to work out what it means for my zero hrs contract and sole trader son.  He thinks that his contracted employment might apply for a grant to pay him - but he is not at all sure.  And can’t see the two companies he contracts for will do anything around paying him a retainer as some are suggesting such companies might.  He said that the people who own the companies in the music events sector often do it just for a bit of fun and arent that bothered about the people who work for them and so won’t necessarily have much in the way of an altruistic bone in their bodies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Not bad for a newbie in the job
		
Click to expand...

I think he is most impressive and I have in very short time built more confidence and trust in him than I have ever held for his boss - who is also exceeding my expectations at the moment - albeit that these expectations were not great.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I’d imagine they’ll be paid as per holiday pay. Average of previous 12 Weeks.
		
Click to expand...

That would be the best outcome for my lad as he’s been on his ‘full’ pay for that period - he’d get £800 / month.  That would pay his rent plus council tax (anyone heard what councils are doing on that?) plus gas and electricity for the month. UC will give him £75 a week (maybe a bit more) for food for himself and partner.  Not a lot - but he’ll get by as he is used to living on very little.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Forced to go to the supermarket this morning, took all the precautions. Instead of gloves I used our dogs [ unused ] poo bags, wore my Snood, and kept my distances and applied hand sanitiser when I took of the poo bags .
Sadly not a toilet roll in site at 8.30 am , but the good news is my new smart bidet toilet is up and running, can't wait to have a poo and try it out 

Click to expand...

Good thinking on the poo bag front - we’ve got a load in the garage for when the cats were using litter tray.👍


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

IanM said:



			I am getting increasingly hacked off with the dumbo questions the press are getting away with.  The Sky News bloke right now needs a smack in the gob!
		
Click to expand...

Did you see Trump’s response to the reporter asking Trump to give some words of comfort to Americans given the rising death toll and fear in the population. I’ll go find it and post it on Trump thread. You might despair at some of the things asked or said in our briefings - however thank God I’m not in the US sitting watching Trumps briefings.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Couldn’t get any surface cleaner, genuinely ran out. Every time I have been out I have looked for it ... well the once anyway that I had to go out.
Anyway was looking through assorted cleaning products... Dettol mildew spray, bleach solution that kills 99.9% of bacteria and viruses.. looks like a damn good stand in! Everything will stink of bleach though.
		
Click to expand...

Whisper it quietly but it may be time to check out mumsnet and the online cleaning woman, forgot her name but it is Mrs something. Anyway they will have threads on home made cleaners. White wine vinegar comes into it quite a bit, if you can get it of course. 

Do it quietly, apparently some on here will mock you for it 🤫

On a more serious note, we sell a wipe at work that contains IPA, a steriliser used in care homes, hospitals etc. Increasingly difficult to get, prices rocketing. Cleaning chemicals, plus their containers, spray bottles etc generally are going to be tough to get for a little while as everyone becomes a clean freak.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very welcome news from the government for my wife and the charity helpline.  At 80% grant the charity will be able to keep the helpline going as far as staff costs are concerned - perhaps the charity will be able to take a government loan to top up - but not sure that charities are able to take out loans or indeed whether they would see themselves able to pay it back.  Obviously though charities continue to need our support for all their other research activities.  But nevertheless good news.

Still trying to work out what it means for my zero hrs contract and sole trader son.  He thinks that his contracted employment might apply for a grant to pay him - but he is not at all sure.  And can’t see the two companies he contracts for will do anything around paying him a retainer as some are suggesting such companies might.  He said that the people who own the companies in the music events sector often do it just for a bit of fun and arent that bothered about the people who work for them and so won’t necessarily have much in the way of an altruistic bone in their bodies.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of charities could do with taking a long hard look at the costs of their 'top table' and seek to slash them... Not sure six figure salaries are appropriate...


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## robinthehood (Mar 21, 2020)

Interesting read
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Only been a few days and I already wish they could put me in a medically induced coma like they do for space travel in the sci-fi movies until this all blows over. Feels a bit like being in a sci-fi movie, a bit surreal.

Think the 12 week thing is nonsense given projected spread, they'll get to mid June then it'll be another 4 weeks, then another 4 etc, Bojo has to give us something tangible to cling onto as our tiny minds can't cope otherwise.

Click to expand...

I think 12 weeks might cover getting the outbreak under control but many months more whilst restrictions are very carefully lifted.  So for instance (and this isnt real - it might not be something that would be considered) at some point pubs in a specific area might be allowed to open but only one night a week and pubs in an area opening on different nights.  But they might have that running for a month or more to closely monitor for anything happening in the area in respect of infections.  Could go on for a very long time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			A lot of charities could do with taking a long hard look at the costs of their 'top table' and seek to slash them... Not sure six figure salaries are appropriate...
		
Click to expand...

charities are monitored for their ratio of ‘money going to cause‘ against income - that has to remain high.  Indeed many charities make great play of that ratio - often being over 90%. 

Also you need to be aware that charities - especially bigger ones - employ highly skilled people - often coming from highly paid jobs and taking big wage cuts - as well as some of the top experts in their field.  The charity my wife works for has some of the top experts on breast cancer in the UK and internationally recognised - and the helpline and support team my wife works on is comprised in the main of very experienced breast cancer and other clinical nurse specialists.  They aren’t just a voice at the end of the phone reading scripts.


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That would be the best outcome for my lad as he’s been on his ‘full’ pay for that period - he’d get £800 / month.  That would pay his rent plus council tax (anyone heard what councils are doing on that?) plus gas and electricity for the month. UC will give him £75 (maybe a bit more) for food for himself and partner.  Not a lot - but he’ll get by as he is used to living on very little.
		
Click to expand...

I know that’s the understanding at both odeon and Nando’s. Although to think one remaining open will have the easier time in paying staff.

Re council tax, I havent heard anything yet. But if the government are try9ng to keep everyone in work then I’d imagine it won’t be a big change just yet.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Then everyone comes out of hiding and were back where we started.
		
Click to expand...

That’s the concern around the approach that China has taken - so only very slow lifting of restrictions likely.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2020)

Any chance of a lay in disappeared some time ago as the loft conversion next door carries on as if nothing has happened.


----------



## IainP (Mar 21, 2020)

Frilford's non covered range is close by and I usually buy some cards for it in the summer. Brought forward that purchase as I'll feel more comfortable going there when quiet - it doesn't have "bays" so easy to spread out. Perhaps part of the new normal.
There were no baskets though, I've a hunch they were cleaning them overnight and forgot to put them out, luckily had a bag in the boot to use.


----------



## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

Whether subconsciously cutting back, stress/anxiety related or whatever....I'm not eating as much as I normally do.
Still eating, dont get me wrong but it's a lot less.
I may be half the Man I am now when this is all over...


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2020)

My youngest niece is getting married today.
Only two witnesses allowed at the ceremony.
Hotel pulled the plug on the reception last night but said they can collect the food [no refund]
Blowing a gale and raining where they are so photos will be restricted.
3 week in honeymoon in the sun cancelled a couple of weeks ago.
I bet they remember their big day.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Whether subconsciously cutting back, stress/anxiety related or whatever....I'm not eating as much as I normally do.
Still eating, dont get me wrong but it's a lot less.
I may be half the Man I am now when this is all over...

Click to expand...

Bet you have a different haircut too.


----------



## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Bet you have a different haircut too.

Click to expand...

What's this "hair" or which you speak?
I'll have you know my avatar is remarkably accurate


----------



## SteveW86 (Mar 21, 2020)

Positive trip to Asda this morning, glad to see plenty of stock on the shelves except pasta and rice.

Had to laugh at the woman ranting that they only had Irish beef and no British, her husband was looking very embarrassed!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Whether subconsciously cutting back, stress/anxiety related or whatever....I'm not eating as much as I normally do.
Still eating, dont get me wrong but it's a lot less.
I may be half the Man I am now when this is all over...

Click to expand...

You’ll still be a chubster Bro 😂🤭


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You’ll still be a chubster Bro 😂🤭
		
Click to expand...

Better than CHUbster though...


----------



## Slab (Mar 21, 2020)

2nd day (1st full day) of total containment lockdown, last 48 hours were manic in shops

roadblocks are up and stopping people to justify their trip, most businesses closed, police helicopters patrolling too, last repatriation flights imminent before that locks too. supermarket was well stocked this morning and surprisingly quiet with limit on number of shoppers at any time


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2020)

Not much evidence of "social distancing" in the news clips of queuing outside Costco... Other examples of bad queuing are available 😉...


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2020)




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## Slab (Mar 21, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Not much evidence of "social distancing" in the news clips of queuing outside Costco... Other examples of bad queuing are available 😉...
		
Click to expand...

This might be an unfair comment but it does seems like the UK doesn't 'get it'


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Mar 21, 2020)

Philip Schofield has been told he has Covid-19.  So a month after coming out, he's been told to go back in.


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Any chance of a lay in disappeared some time ago as the loft conversion next door carries on as if nothing has happened.
		
Click to expand...

I guess if they can get the supplies why delay


----------



## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			This might be an unfair comment but it does seems like the UK doesn't 'get it'
		
Click to expand...

Not unfair at all when it comes to supermarkets 
I think I'd rather pick up the scraps than stand close to so many peop,e at the moment.


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Philip Schofield has been told he has Covid-19.  So a month after coming out, he's been told to go back in.
		
Click to expand...

Wicked...and you a club captain as well....


----------



## Mudball (Mar 21, 2020)

i have only realised how much toilet paper we actually use?  i was of the (uneducated) opinion, that a bag from Costco would go for months.  Apparetnly not..  unless we have suddenly started to s*it more


----------



## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My youngest niece is getting married today.
Only two witnesses allowed at the ceremony.
Hotel pulled the plug on the reception last night but said they can collect the food [no refund]
Blowing a gale and raining where they are so photos will be restricted.
3 week in honeymoon in the sun cancelled a couple of weeks ago.
I bet they remember their big day.

Click to expand...

Really tough for them but they will have one of a story to tell their grandkids.


----------



## hovis (Mar 21, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



View attachment 29428

Click to expand...

😣😣😣😣😣terrible. just terrible 😅


----------



## Norrin Radd (Mar 21, 2020)

being a taxi driver I now have a job worth sod all ,no school runs noairports and nobody going out to the closed down pubs and clubs, I think i will have a word with the local kebab house and see if they want a delivery driver for the duration of the virus.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			being a taxi driver I now have a job worth sod all ,no school runs noairports and nobody going out to the closed down pubs and clubs, I think i will have a word with the local kebab house and see if they want a delivery driver for the duration of the virus.
		
Click to expand...

A few restaurants around here are doing home deliveries... might be worth a punt to ring a few of them too.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2020)




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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2020)

On the basis that there's nowt sport-wise on TV, the gym is closed and pretty much everything else too, I'm off for my first game of golf in 2020. I am so out of practice that even remembering where my shoes are is a challenge - heaven alone knows what will happen when I swing a club!


----------



## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			On the basis that there's nowt sport-wise on TV, the gym is closed and pretty much everything else too, I'm off for my first game of golf in 2020. I am so out of practice that even remembering where my shoes are is a challenge - heaven alone knows what will happen when I swing a club!
		
Click to expand...

And the good thing is that it doesn't matter!


----------



## srixon 1 (Mar 21, 2020)

I have just seen a post on Facebook from Del, (remember him), saying that because of corona virus we could make the holes bigger


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2020)

Niece went to the local supermarket early this morning as her husband is classed as vulnerable, only be told to Foxtrot Oscar by one of the elderly as she didn't look old, sick or vulnerable.  

When she got in & spoke to the manager, he said he has already had 4 members of staff walk because, and I quote, "we aren't paid enough for the abuse that we are receiving."

There are times that being British embarrasses me.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2020)

srixon 1 said:



			I have just seen a post on Facebook from Del, (remember him), saying that because of corona virus we could make the holes bigger 

Click to expand...

The dog is still chewing on that particular bone then?


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			This might be an unfair comment but it does seems like the UK doesn't 'get it'
		
Click to expand...

Herself was out and about yesterday... Being generous she advised about 10% had got the message... In one queue, one lady politely reminded another about "social distancing"... The response was "if you are in the at risk group you shouldn't be out"... First lady responded, a whole lot less politely, along the lines of... What's it going to take for the penny to drop we are all now in the 'at risk group'....


----------



## chellie (Mar 21, 2020)

IainP said:



			Frilford's non covered range is close by and I usually buy some cards for it in the summer. Brought forward that purchase as I'll feel more comfortable going there when quiet - it doesn't have "bays" so easy to spread out. Perhaps part of the new normal.
There were no baskets though, I've a hunch they were cleaning them overnight and forgot to put them out, luckily had a bag in the boot to use.
		
Click to expand...

Our non covered practice ground is shut. It's only open to members and paying visitors on the course though normally.


----------



## Slab (Mar 21, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Herself was out and about yesterday... Being generous she advised about 10% had got the message... In one queue, one lady politely reminded another about "social distancing"... The response was "if you are in the at risk group you shouldn't be out"... First lady responded, a whole lot less politely, along the lines of... What's it going to take for the penny to drop we are all now in the 'at risk group'....
		
Click to expand...

Yeah I was in UK for the first time in years last week so I saw a bit of it first hand too. Just scraped back into the country before we locked down


----------



## chrisd (Mar 21, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			being a taxi driver I now have a job worth sod all ,no school runs noairports and nobody going out to the closed down pubs and clubs, I think i will have a word with the local kebab house and see if they want a delivery driver for the duration of the virus.
		
Click to expand...

I wish you well and hope things pick up quickly, do check announcements of government help mate


----------



## hovis (Mar 21, 2020)

Random question but is Liverpoolphil OK. not noticed any post or arguments 😅 recently.


----------



## Wolf (Mar 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			Random question but is Liverpoolphil OK. not noticed any post or arguments 😅 recently.
		
Click to expand...

He's definitely still lurkung as he has liked a few of my posts recently but not sure why he's not posting, perhaps a run in with MODs, we've all had those on occasions. But that's merely speculation, hopefully he and his family are well and unaffected by the virus.


----------



## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

My partner is a renal nurse and is being deployed elsewhere, her unit is permanently short staffed, she said they (the NHS) are expecting an absolute sh!t storm coming down the track.


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 21, 2020)

Wolf said:



			He's definitely still lurkung as he has liked a few of my posts recently but not sure why he's not posting, perhaps a run in with MODs, we've all had those on occasions. But that's merely speculation, hopefully he and his family are well and unaffected by the virus.
		
Click to expand...

The moderating is strange to say the least ....


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			being a taxi driver I now have a job worth sod all ,no school runs noairports and nobody going out to the closed down pubs and clubs, I think i will have a word with the local kebab house and see if they want a delivery driver for the duration of the virus.
		
Click to expand...

Waitrose are advertising all over the country for van drivers.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A few restaurants around here are doing home deliveries... might be worth a punt to ring a few of them too.
		
Click to expand...

A few are delivering here too, but seeming they don't accept cash you can only pay by contactless card.
Not sure how that works without WiFi  Just another thought will putting a carry out in a microwave kill the virus


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			A few are delivering here too, but seeming they don't accept cash you can only pay by contactless card.
Not sure how that works without WiFi 

Click to expand...

Over 4g


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2020)

Wolf said:



			He's definitely still lurkung as he has liked a few of my posts recently but not sure why he's not posting, perhaps a run in with MODs, we've all had those on occasions. But that's merely speculation, hopefully he and his family are well and unaffected by the virus.
		
Click to expand...

His finger is hovering over @pauldj42 as we speak


----------



## Wolf (Mar 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			His finger is hovering over @pauldj42 as we speak 

Click to expand...

😂


----------



## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Over 4g
		
Click to expand...

Wonder what will happen if theres no 4g or 3g available..plenty of places around here where theres nothing...


----------



## Stuart_C (Mar 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			Random question but is Liverpoolphil OK. not noticed any post or arguments 😅 recently.
		
Click to expand...

I've heard he died after meeting a sexual predator via Grinder in the Berkshire area....

Hoping it's true tbh.


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That’s the concern around the approach that China has taken - so only very slow lifting of restrictions likely.
		
Click to expand...

A month or so ago I read on wikipedia about the spanish flu. I read it as comparisons were being made to that and this virus. It was very informative. However what did open my eyes was the fact that the spanish flu was far far worse the second time around. 
Ironically, Trump who is calling this The Chinese Virus should remember the Spanish flu so named after the death of a member of the spanish royal family, originated in America.


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			My partner is a renal nurse and is being deployed elsewhere, her unit is permanently short staffed, she said they (the NHS) are expecting an absolute sh!t storm coming down the track.
		
Click to expand...

Missis T has been set an email. From an ex pal',/ workmates. the local hospital has told all its staff to be careful coz petrol pumps handles are passing on the virus. Just had a 5 mins conversation on fb coz a guy says its bollox. Sometimes when trying to help folk you can despair.


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

‼️IMPORTANT ‼️
Chinese Doctor from Wuhan explains the truth about corona virus and how to eliminate it without using extreme measures.  Listen to his advice and please pass this on, *the solution is much simpler than we're being led to believe!!* 💯


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			‼️IMPORTANT ‼️
Chinese Doctor from Wuhan explains the truth about corona virus and how to eliminate it without using extreme measures.  Listen to his advice and please pass this on, *the solution is much simpler than we're being led to believe!!* 💯
		
Click to expand...

U realy think with all the deaths and chaos there is a current solution or it is infact simple ?


----------



## moogie (Mar 21, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			being a taxi driver I now have a job worth sod all ,no school runs noairports and nobody going out to the closed down pubs and clubs, I think i will have a word with the local kebab house and see if they want a delivery driver for the duration of the virus.
		
Click to expand...


I'm in the same boat mate 
( Or car rather) 
No work
Nobody going anywhere 
Nowhere to take them to anyway

The government has done loads so far,  so not being critical,  but as such,  no mention of us self employed,  who's earnings have plummeted to next to nothing
Hopefully something comes up shortly for people in our situation......


----------



## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 21, 2020)

Watching cable news in the US, it appears that absolutely nothing else is going on in the world.
All virus, all the time--that's what's being discussed.

The only other subject even closely approached on the channels that I watch is what a complete idiot our orangutan president is.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			‼️IMPORTANT ‼️
Chinese Doctor from Wuhan explains the truth about corona virus and how to eliminate it without using extreme measures.  Listen to his advice and please pass this on, *the solution is much simpler than we're being led to believe!!* 💯
		
Click to expand...

you've just copy and pasted something off the Internet with no link. But please don't post the link at it will inevitably be incorrect made up advice that only stupid people believe.


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			U realy think with all the deaths and chaos there is a current solution or it is infact simple ?
		
Click to expand...

It was a copy and paste thing someone sent me, lighthearted, however the audio clip would not play so I deleted it.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

Queues of traffic trying to leave Madrid today. Police are stopping all of them and asking for proof of primary address, of where they are going. Anyone not having that proof is being turned back AND fined €30,000.

Yes you read it right. €30,000.

Police locally have set up a number of road blocks today. Must have a valid reason for going out. Must be going to your nearest shop. Must have a receipt if you've been shopping - no loading up bags from your cupboard. €1,000 fine if you can't satisfy the local Police. And if your address isn't local, its €30,000.

Army are well in evidence too.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			It was a copy and paste thing someone sent me, lighthearted, however the audio clip would not play so I deleted it.
		
Click to expand...

The problem is that someone will read it, reckon it sounds plausible and then take it as gospel, that’s how fake news travels


----------



## Captainron (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Queues of traffic trying to leave Madrid today. Police are stopping all of them and asking for proof of primary address, of where they are going. Anyone not having that proof is being turned back AND fined €30,000.

Yes you read it right. €30,000.

Police locally have set up a number of road blocks today. Must have a valid reason for going out. Must be going to your nearest shop. Must have a receipt if you've been shopping - no loading up bags from your cupboard. €1,000 fine if you can't satisfy the local Police. And if your address isn't local, its €30,000.

Army are well in evidence too.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent! That’s the way to do it.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

North Korea has had its first death due to Coronavirus. An official who returned from China, and showed symptoms of the virus has been shot...


----------



## Ye Olde Boomer (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			North Korea has had its first death due to Coronavirus. An official who returned from China, and showed symptoms of the virus has been shot...
		
Click to expand...

Living in the US under Trump, we often forget that even worse situations exist in the world.


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			North Korea has had its first death due to Coronavirus. An official who returned from China, and showed symptoms of the virus has been shot...
		
Click to expand...

Theres a whatsapp post going around re NK
NK 8.00 am 1 positive
        8.10 am 0 positive

9.16 1 positive
9.20 0 positive
Fairly sure it a possibly not so funny joke


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Wonder what will happen if theres no 4g or 3g available..plenty of places around here where theres nothing...
		
Click to expand...

Then you can't use it I guess and will have to use another method, millions of people still will be able to.


----------



## hovis (Mar 21, 2020)

North Koreas figures


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			‼️IMPORTANT ‼️
Chinese Doctor from Wuhan explains the truth about corona virus and how to eliminate it without using extreme measures.  Listen to his advice and please pass this on, *the solution is much simpler than we're being led to believe!!* 💯
		
Click to expand...




bladeplayer said:



			U realy think with all the deaths and chaos there is a current solution or it is in fact simple ?
		
Click to expand...


It's really very simple... 

Oh, sorry, you were referring to the post & not the poster, my mistake.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Mar 21, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I've heard he died after meeting a sexual predator via Grinder in the Berkshire area....

Hoping it's true tbh.
		
Click to expand...

Blimey that’s shocking. 
Stay safe people ✌️


----------



## 2blue (Mar 21, 2020)

Message from Lisa Nandy for all you Dib-dippers having a pathetic dig at this time of National need. 🤨🤨
"Politics as usual has gone out of the window. Coronavirus has affected every family in the country. Every decision that is made at national level has repercussions in real time for people the length and breadth of Britain. We have to get this right.

So today I won't be asking for your vote - I'm asking for your help in bringing this country together.

To get through the next few months, we need to lay aside the divisions that have riven British politics for so long. It is time for a National COBRA that formally brings together Government, Opposition, trade union and business leaders with devolved governments, charities and community leaders to build a common national action plan and stand behind it united.

I know it's deeply unusual for a leadership candidate to ask this. I know as well as anyone what the Tories have done to our families and communities over the last decade. The crisis has thrown a spotlight on a country reeling from a decade of austerity that lacks the resilience to respond quickly. It has shown what we in Labour have always known - that we are only as strong as the most vulnerable.

That is even more reason for the Labour movement to step forward now.

We must fill the vacuum of leadership and get the country through this. Our party has experience and expertise at every level - from dealing with the global economic crisis in 2008 to building resilience in our communities over the last decade in the toughest of times."


----------



## rosecott (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			North Korea has had its first death due to Coronavirus. An official who returned from China, and showed symptoms of the virus has been shot...
		
Click to expand...

Please don't forget the smilies.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 21, 2020)

moogie said:



			I'm in the same boat mate
( Or car rather)
No work
Nobody going anywhere
Nowhere to take them to anyway

The government has done loads so far,  so not being critical,  but as such,  no mention of us self employed,  who's earnings have plummeted to next to nothing
Hopefully something comes up shortly for people in our situation......
		
Click to expand...

Worth asking supermarkets if you could deliver for them, they seem to be well behind in home deliveries.


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The problem is that someone will read it, reckon it sounds plausible and then take it as gospel, that’s how fake news travels
		
Click to expand...

Someone sent me a clip of a chinese dr saying how some it was to avoid the virus. It sounded like Norman collier doing a chinese voice. You had to hear it. After the daughter rang me/ woke me up at 7.30 an asking what size sandals missis T was ( mothers day pressie). It was quite funny.


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 21, 2020)

2blue said:



			Message from Lisa Nandy for all you Dib-dippers having a pathetic dig at this time of National need. 🤨🤨
"*Politics as usual has gone out of the window*. Coronavirus has affected every family in the country. Every decision that is made at national level has repercussions in real time for people the length and breadth of Britain. We have to get this right.

So today I won't be asking for your vote - I'm asking for your help in bringing this country together.

To get through the next few months, we need to lay aside the divisions that have riven British politics for so long. It is time for a National COBRA that formally brings together Government, Opposition, trade union and business leaders with devolved governments, charities and community leaders to build a common national action plan and stand behind it united.

I know it's deeply unusual for a leadership candidate to ask this. I know as well as anyone what the Tories have done to our families and communities over the last decade. The crisis has thrown a spotlight on a country reeling from a decade of austerity that lacks the resilience to respond quickly. It has shown what we in Labour have always known - that we are only as strong as the most vulnerable.
That is even more reason for the Labour movement to step forward now.

We must fill the vacuum of leadership and get the country through this. Our party has experience and expertise at every level - from dealing with the global economic crisis in 2008 to building resilience in our communities over the last decade in the toughest of times."
		
Click to expand...

did she really say that with a straight face?

not the time for politics, but let me just slate the tories and big us (labour)up. Pathetic.


----------



## drdel (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Queues of traffic trying to leave Madrid today. Police are stopping all of them and asking for proof of primary address, of where they are going. Anyone not having that proof is being turned back AND fined €30,000.

Yes you read it right. €30,000.

Police locally have set up a number of road blocks today. Must have a valid reason for going out. Must be going to your nearest shop. Must have a receipt if you've been shopping - no loading up bags from your cupboard. €1,000 fine if you can't satisfy the local Police. And if your address isn't local, its €30,000.

Army are well in evidence too.
		
Click to expand...

Apparently the traffic from London to the Soutwest is very heavy. So much for requirement to just make essential journies.


----------



## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2020)

For those who think we’re not in the same boat as Italy...


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

A pal just WhatsApp face times me from just north of milan..says the news has just mentioned 60,000 confirmed cases of Covid. Says a lot of folk are as scared as heck.
He had heard they MAY start lowering restrictions in 1 month. He is a gas tanker driver so has to work. He spends all day washing his hands.


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			did she really say that with a straight face?

not the time for politics, but let me just slate the tories and big us (labour)up. Pathetic.
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't bring myself to reply to the post. Labour who have no direction, want to be Involved on directing the country in this its darkest hour. 
To much time.and effort will be spent discussing this non story.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

2blue said:



			Message from Lisa Nandy for all you Dib-dippers having a pathetic dig at this time of National need. 🤨🤨
"Politics as usual has gone out of the window. Coronavirus has affected every family in the country. Every decision that is made at national level has repercussions in real time for people the length and breadth of Britain. We have to get this right.

So today I won't be asking for your vote - I'm asking for your help in bringing this country together.

To get through the next few months, we need to lay aside the divisions that have riven British politics for so long. It is time for a National COBRA that formally brings together Government, Opposition, trade union and business leaders with devolved governments, charities and community leaders to build a common national action plan and stand behind it united.

I know it's deeply unusual for a leadership candidate to ask this. I know as well as anyone what the Tories have done to our families and communities over the last decade. The crisis has thrown a spotlight on a country reeling from a decade of austerity that lacks the resilience to respond quickly. It has shown what we in Labour have always known - that we are only as strong as the most vulnerable.

That is even more reason for the Labour movement to step forward now.

We must fill the vacuum of leadership and get the country through this. Our party has experience and expertise at every level - from dealing with the global economic crisis in 2008 to building resilience in our communities over the last decade in the toughest of times."
		
Click to expand...


For those picking apart what Lisa Nandy said, I'm afraid I have to disagree. An awful lot of what she said needed saying. In terms of is she right or is she wrong, that depends on your politics. Coalition governments at times of national crisis have worked in the past, and there's no reason why they won't work now. Who's to say the 15th best MP in the Tory party is better than the 15th best MP in the Labour party, or the LibDems for that matter. Let's drop the political blinkers and look at what actually makes a difference.

Many local councils are Labour run, and run by councillors with many years experience, and there's very good LibDems and Independents in there. Forget party politics and look to who is best for the job.

Boris appears to be doing a decent job in very difficult circumstances, and the Chancellor too. But I've been mightily impressed with Kier Starmer(not my fav politician by any means), and Nandy has spoken well too. RLB is an idiot of the first water. Sturgeon has spoken with reason and care. 

What would be wrong with bringing in people like that? And what would be wrong with a coalition govt if it means bringing in the best from all sides? It probably won't happen but I hope that behind the scenes government is recognising that there's good people on all sides and are open to working with them.


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:



View attachment 29436

For those who think we’re not in the same boat as Italy...
		
Click to expand...


There was a few questioning me saying the UK will have upwards of 5000 deaths by the end of the month, and the Italians have a better health care system than we do.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			For those picking apart what Lisa Nandy said, I'm afraid I have to disagree. An awful lot of what she said needed saying. In terms of is she right or is she wrong, that depends on your politics. Coalition governments at times of national crisis have worked in the past, and there's no reason why they won't work now. Who's to say the 15th best MP in the Tory party is better than the 15th best MP in the Labour party, or the LibDems for that matter. Let's drop the political blinkers and look at what actually makes a difference.

Many local councils are Labour run, and run by councillors with many years experience, and there's very good LibDems and Independents in there. Forget party politics and look to who is best for the job.

Boris appears to be doing a decent job in very difficult circumstances, and the Chancellor too. But I've been mightily impressed with Kier Starmer(not my fav politician by any means), and Nandy has spoken well too. RLB is an idiot of the first water. Sturgeon has spoken with reason and care. 

What would be wrong with bringing in people like that? And what would be wrong with a coalition govt if it means bringing in the best from all sides? It probably won't happen but I hope that behind the scenes government is recognising that there's good people on all sides and are open to working with them.
		
Click to expand...

I think they have been including other mp's on a number of issues already. I believe Labour were certainly involved in the recent decisions regarding help / money for businesses, people losing their job etc, and I would assume others were included as well based on the lack of criticism. There may not be a formal national unity govt right now but it is happening informally. This happens quite often in committees, it is a shame it doesn't happen more often on many subjects as there are skills on all sides that are often lost because of tribal politics.


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## robinthehood (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			There was a few questioning me saying the UK will have upwards of 5000 deaths by the end of the month, and the Italians have a better health care system than we do.
		
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Well if your evidence is based on a picture from Facebook,  what do you expect.


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## 2blue (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I couldn't bring myself to reply to the post. Labour who have no direction, want to be Involved on directing the country in this its darkest hour.
To much time.and effort will be spent discussing this non story.
		
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She's wanting us to stand together as one so we can be strong & back each other up.......  some of us at least know what that means & how to do it...  think-on!!


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## Slime (Mar 21, 2020)

2blue said:



			Message from Lisa Nandy for all you Dib-dippers having a pathetic dig at this time of National need. 🤨🤨
"Politics as usual has gone out of the window. Coronavirus has affected every family in the country. Every decision that is made at national level has repercussions in real time for people the length and breadth of Britain. We have to get this right.

So today I won't be asking for your vote - I'm asking for your help in bringing this country together.

To get through the next few months, we need to lay aside the divisions that have riven British politics for so long. It is time for a National COBRA that formally brings together Government, Opposition, trade union and business leaders with devolved governments, charities and community leaders to build a common national action plan and stand behind it united.

I know it's deeply unusual for a leadership candidate to ask this. I know as well as anyone what the Tories have done to our families and communities over the last decade. The crisis has thrown a spotlight on a country reeling from a decade of austerity that lacks the resilience to respond quickly. It has shown what we in Labour have always known - that we are only as strong as the most vulnerable.

That is even more reason for the Labour movement to step forward now.

We must fill the vacuum of leadership and get the country through this. Our party has experience and expertise at every level - from dealing with the global economic crisis in 2008 to building resilience in our communities over the last decade in the toughest of times."
		
Click to expand...

And that was a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party.
In other news .........................


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Well if your evidence is based on a picture from Facebook,  what do you expect.
		
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You said it was based on the evidence of a picture on facebook, not me.


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## 2blue (Mar 21, 2020)

Slime said:



			And that was a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Labour Party.
In other news .........................
		
Click to expand...

....... & in other news this blinkered nag has just run straight out of the stadium.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			For those picking apart what Lisa Nandy said, I'm afraid I have to disagree. An awful lot of what she said needed saying. In terms of is she right or is she wrong, that depends on your politics. Coalition governments at times of national crisis have worked in the past, and there's no reason why they won't work now. Who's to say the 15th best MP in the Tory party is better than the 15th best MP in the Labour party, or the LibDems for that matter. Let's drop the political blinkers and look at what actually makes a difference.

Many local councils are Labour run, and run by councillors with many years experience, and there's very good LibDems and Independents in there. Forget party politics and look to who is best for the job.

Boris appears to be doing a decent job in very difficult circumstances, and the Chancellor too. But I've been mightily impressed with Kier Starmer(not my fav politician by any means), and Nandy has spoken well too. RLB is an idiot of the first water. Sturgeon has spoken with reason and care.

What would be wrong with bringing in people like that? And what would be wrong with a coalition govt if it means bringing in the best from all sides? It probably won't happen but I hope that behind the scenes government is recognising that there's good people on all sides and are open to working with them.
		
Click to expand...

I have no objection to us working together at all.

My point was simply that she completely went against their opening stance.

By all means say we have to work together. Then stop talking and her point is fine. But nope. She has to then drop a few digs.

Makes it look like her whole statement is a points scoring exercise. Why would the government want to work with her if all she's gonna do is try and take credit If it works or blame others if ideas don't...

That being said, sadly it's the sort of behavior I'd expect from lots of politicians. Irrespective of their party allegiance.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:



View attachment 29436

For those who think we’re not in the same boat as Italy...
		
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It's definitely tracking, today's number is 233.
Maybe Italy is concentrated in a tighter geographical region though?


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Maybe Italy is concentrated in a tighter geographical region though?
		
Click to expand...

You mean like London where the highest cases have been identified. 8 million or so in London, 10 million in the Lombardy region. 

I know I keep repeating this but all these shutdowns aren't so much to control infections, they have been done, as we have been repeatedly told to try and help the NHS cope, they won't.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I have no objection to us working together at all.

My point was simply that she completely went against their opening stance.

By all means say we have to work together. Then stop talking and her point is fine. But nope. She has to then drop a few digs.

Makes it look like her whole statement is a points scoring exercise. Why would the government want to work with her if all she's gonna do is try and take credit If it works or blame others if ideas don't...

That being said, sadly it's the sort of behavior I'd expect from lots of politicians. Irrespective of their party allegiance.
		
Click to expand...

I think some of her phraseology is questionable, and I don’t agree with every word but, like you, I’m definitely for looking at it with an open mind.

Unfortunately, some see one phrase in it and their shutters drop.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			For those picking apart what Lisa Nandy said, I'm afraid I have to disagree. An awful lot of what she said needed saying. In terms of is she right or is she wrong, that depends on your politics. Coalition governments at times of national crisis have worked in the past, and there's no reason why they won't work now. Who's to say the 15th best MP in the Tory party is better than the 15th best MP in the Labour party, or the LibDems for that matter. Let's drop the political blinkers and look at what actually makes a difference.

Many local councils are Labour run, and run by councillors with many years experience, and there's very good LibDems and Independents in there. Forget party politics and look to who is best for the job.

Boris appears to be doing a decent job in very difficult circumstances, and the Chancellor too. But I've been mightily impressed with Kier Starmer(not my fav politician by any means), and Nandy has spoken well too. RLB is an idiot of the first water. Sturgeon has spoken with reason and care.

What would be wrong with bringing in people like that? And what would be wrong with a coalition govt if it means bringing in the best from all sides? It probably won't happen but I hope that behind the scenes government is recognising that there's good people on all sides and are open to working with them.
		
Click to expand...

Your comments are good and pertinent. What dissapoints me from her comments is that she talks about politicians working together and then starts political point scoring.  I heard Emily Thornbury doing the same yesterday, it's time to stop party politics.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 21, 2020)

I’m sure I heard on the news earlier 55 died in England today however 800 in Italy 
If it gets anything like Italy over here it will be catastrophic


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I’m sure I heard on the news earlier 55 died in England today however 800 in Italy
If it gets anything like Italy over here it will be catastrophic
		
Click to expand...

They've been saying for some days that less than 20k deaths here would be a good result....


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			They've been saying for some days that less than 20k deaths here would be a good result....
		
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Apparently 17k die every year of standard flu in the UK every year.

I’m not saying that makes the 20k you quoted less alarming,just shocked that Flu kills so many.


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I’m sure I heard on the news earlier 55 died in England today however 800 in Italy
If it gets anything like Italy over here it will be catastrophic
		
Click to expand...

There is no reason why it won't be the same over here, this country only started taking this seriously in the last couple of days, the curve is already there.


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Apparently 17k die every year of standard flu in the UK every year.

I’m not saying that makes the 20k you quoted less alarming,just shocked that Flu kills so many.
		
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8000 was my understanding.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			8000 was my understanding.
		
Click to expand...

You’re Probably right,I saw the number I quoted on Twitter 😳


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## 2blue (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			8000 was my understanding.
		
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In rare cases flu can kill people who are otherwise healthy. In the UK it is estimated that an average of *600 people* a year die from complications of flu. In some years it is estimated that this can rise to over 10,000 deaths (UK study from 2013, which estimated over 13,000 deaths resulting from flu in 2008-09


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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2020)

I've seen a post on the village facebook page about volunteering for the local NHS trust. Was about to email but then thought - does it not contravene guidelines about social distancing etc. Uncertain times when questioning whether you should do good is actually good


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

2blue said:



			She's wanting us to stand together as one so we can be strong & back each other up.......  some of us at least know what that means & how to do it...  think-on!! 

Click to expand...

I get that message, I totally do but unity on a coalition government with Corbyn. 
A question   I dont know the answer to. Whi h experts would Labour bring on that boris and the Tories wouldn't.
Another question, has any other country formed a coalition government.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 21, 2020)

2blue said:



			In rare cases flu can kill people who are otherwise healthy. In the UK it is estimated that an average of *600 people* a year die from complications of flu. In some years it is estimated that this can rise to over 10,000 deaths (UK study from 2013, which estimated over 13,000 deaths resulting from flu in 2008-09
		
Click to expand...

Also deaths from flu, rightly or wrongly, have been taken into account and society has accepted them.  Where as a new virus that is killing people and can be easily transmitted hasn't, and no government is going to say 'well you're OK with flu so you should be OK with this'.  But I expect over time and once we have a vaccine this will more of a fact of life.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

Two local cases now, and a 3rd policeman has died from it.

Great numbers out on their terraces at 8 o'clock tonight clapping and singing.


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## robinthehood (Mar 21, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also deaths from flu, rightly or wrongly, have been taken into account and society has accepted them.  Where as a new virus that is killing people and can be easily transmitted hasn't, and no government is going to say 'well you're OK with flu so you should be OK with this'.  But I expect over time and once we have a vaccine this will more of a fact of life.
		
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It's sounds brutal but a lot of the deaths we are seeing are people who would have died soon anyway.  It's only further down the line we'll get an idea if how many deaths were solely attributable to corona virus.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I get that message, I totally do but unity on a coalition government with Corbyn.
A question   I dont know the answer to. Whi h experts would Labour bring on that boris and the Tories wouldn't.
Another question, has any other country formed a coalition government.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously mate, get past your prejudices!! The future health of all of us is at stake! All parties should be standing up and working together, let boris decide if he wants their help or not and which “experts” he may or may not want to use.

What’s the alternative? HoC back to like it was during the Brexit fiasco and the Country stumbling around!!

Party allegiances, past history, etc needs to be parked up and people have to come together!


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## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I’m sure I heard on the news earlier 55 died in England today however 800 in Italy 
If it gets anything like Italy over here it will be catastrophic
		
Click to expand...

Its coming tho and its some people to blame .. government to an extent but some ppl will never listen or believe the rules are for others


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously mate, get past your prejudices!! The future health of all of us is at stake! All parties should be standing up and working together, let boris decide if he wants their help or not and which “experts” he may or may not want to use.

What’s the alternative? HoC back to like it was during the Brexit fiasco and the Country stumbling around!!

Party allegiances, past history, etc needs to be parked up and people have to come together!
		
Click to expand...

If I can put up with Johnson and Co - and can even put up with the current wittering of Francois and Bridgen then anyone should be able to accept the gist of what a politician of another complexion is saying without looking to nit pick. That time will come again but it is not now.


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			It's sounds brutal but a lot of the deaths we are seeing are people who would have died soon anyway.
		
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I made a similar comment on another forum two weeks ago and got banned for it.


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## robinthehood (Mar 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I made a similar comment on another forum two weeks ago and got banned for it.
		
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Really? It's just facts , upwards of half a million people  die in the UK each year.


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## User20204 (Mar 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Really? It's just facts , upwards of half a million people  die in the UK each year.
		
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One particular member went to the gaffer saying it was very insensitive as he had elderly parents.


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## Mudball (Mar 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I can put up with Johnson and Co - and can even put up with the current wittering of Francois and Bridgen then anyone should be able to accept the gist of what a politician of another complexion is saying without looking to nit pick. That time will come again but it is not now.
		
Click to expand...

On one of my FB is a a pro-Brexit, anti-Corbyn guy...  It is unreal on what he posts at the moment.  I keep him there for pure entertainment value.   I have seen posts with Corbyn saying that we should give Corona immigration as it is a terrorist.  The stuff that goes on in some circles is unreal..


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			It's sounds brutal but a lot of the deaths we are seeing are people who would have died soon anyway.  It's only further down the line we'll get an idea if how many deaths were solely attributable to corona virus.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly and as I think was strongly alluded to in the briefing today, clinicians will have to make even more difficult decisions based on best survival chances going forward more so than ever


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## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			It's sounds brutal but a lot of the deaths we are seeing are people who would have died soon anyway.  It's only further down the line we'll get an idea if how many deaths were solely attributable to corona virus.
		
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It does sound brutal and u maybe right .
U possibly are .. 

 Tell that to some1 who has family with underlying health problems . Quality of life may not even be great . But every day every single min of every single day is important to those people .why do u think hospitals esp Az&E are full of visitors  Reckless selfish people have no right to shorten r threaten this time even by 1 min .


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2020)

Private hospitals turning over most of their capacity in the next week.
8000 beds, 1200 ventilators and nearly 20k staff.
Should be good to go by the end of the week.
Has to be good news...


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Private hospitals turning over most of their capacity in the next week.
8000 beds, 1200 ventilators and nearly 20k staff.
Should be good to go by the end of the week.
Has to be good news...
		
Click to expand...

Having been working to try and set up the escalation beds in our theatres yesterday and knowing just how bad it has been for our senior technician to get stuff in from central stores ventilators are an issue. So are pumps and especially PPE equipment. I am sure we'll find a way. The extra staff will need training but that should be fine to do with some planning so hoping we're as ready as we can be for the peak


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## bladeplayer (Mar 21, 2020)

K club . (2006 ryder cup) hotel has new owners . They have omoffered our HSE (nhs) use of it for anything they need.  
Guards having to raid pubs coz some selfish folk cant stay out and keep their diatance


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Having been working to try and set up the escalation beds in our theatres yesterday and knowing just how bad it has been for our senior technician to get stuff in from central stores ventilators are an issue. So are pumps and especially PPE equipment. I am sure we'll find a way. The extra staff will need training but that should be fine to do with some planning so hoping we're as ready as we can be for the peak
		
Click to expand...

The vent on the anaes machine in the theatre should be fine - they're plenty sophisticated enough. The induction room might be an issue in terms of monitoring, but if you have "pick and go" monitoring in recovery this can be moved into the induction rooms. If its all networked to a central station that will ease some of the staffing burden. Also, if its a wireless network you can get that extended fairly easily by adding access points - as you say its the timescale that becomes a problem.

The other issue in terms of Control of Infection is the positive pressure aircon in some theatres. The theatre has air pumped into it via the aircon so that the pressure is always higher than outside - it pushes infection away from the theatre. Great for theatres but just what you don't want in an isolation(escalation) room.

No doubt the team are on top of it... good luck


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## Fade and Die (Mar 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:



View attachment 29436

For those who think we’re not in the same boat as Italy...
		
Click to expand...

That’s the scariest thing I have seen for a long time... Also today, 233 dead. IDENTICAL to Italy 14 days ago!


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Another question, has any other country formed a coalition government.
		
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Yet another comment that shows how someone’s gut is just stupid.


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## DRW (Mar 21, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241463928271581185
This twitter account has a sad graph, hope the curve gradient changes soon for us, spain, Italy, actually all countries.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

2blue said:



			She's wanting us to stand together as one so we can be strong & back each other up.......  some of us at least know what that means & how to do it...  think-on!! 

Click to expand...

I thought we were all standing as one, apart from the profiteers


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously mate, get past your prejudices!! The future health of all of us is at stake! All parties should be standing up and working together, let boris decide if he wants their help or not and which “experts” he may or may not want to use.

What’s the alternative? HoC back to like it was during the Brexit fiasco and the Country stumbling around!!

Party allegiances, past history, etc needs to be parked up and people have to come together!
		
Click to expand...

Prejudices, seriously paul. 😳

I have asked 2 in which I do not know the answers to. You mention the alternative is to have the HOC back to its Brexit fiasco. Have you forgotten already that it was Labours lack of direction and uncertainnty that helped create that fiasco 

So I will ask again what experts would a coalition government bring In that the Tory government have not already brought in. I really am.i terested to know.
Secondly is there any other country that has already formed a  coalition government. Again I do  not know the answer.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 21, 2020)

DRW said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241463928271581185
This twitter account has a sad graph, hope the curve gradient changes soon for us, spain, Italy, actually all countries.
		
Click to expand...

You can see at times the pain and confusion in Boris's face as he announces ever more control by the state on our daily lives to try and stop the growth of cases whilst he is wondering why some people are stupid and selfish. Looks like the loss in trust of the public in most politicians over the last few years was not such a bright idea.

_'This goes against everything I stand for politically'
'But if you don't do this 2 hundred thousand could die unnecessarily'
'But this is against everything I stand for'
'Literally 2 hundred thousand....'_

Suspect we'll be even more locked down very soon.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Prejudices, seriously paul. 😳

I have asked 2 in which I do not know the answers to. You mention the alternative is to have the HOC back to its Brexit fiasco. Have you forgotten already that it was Labours lack of direction and uncertainnty that helped create that fiasco

So I will ask again what experts would a coalition government bring In that the Tory government have not already brought in. I really am.i terested to know.
Secondly is there any other country that has already formed a  coalition government. Again I do  not know the answer.
		
Click to expand...

Yes mate, prejudices, first was your dig at Corbyn, then we had your first question which you changed above by dropping the word Labour before experts and finally, does it matter if other Countries have formed coalitions or not?

Did you forget Brexit was all controlled and managed under the tory leadership. Did we/they not lose 2 PM’s over it who walked away when the going got tough....etc

We could spend hours on here, left and right, picking holes on what each party is or is not doing, are you aware of the background of every MP in the HoC’s? Are you seriously suggesting no MP outside of the tory party has nothing to offer?
I genuinely don’t care if the man on the moon helps boris, dismissing anybody or offer of help purely on political allegiances is stupidity of the highest order.

Happy to have an enquiry on what we could or should of done once were through this as I’m sure with the benefit of hindsight the knives will be out, but until that time I believe we should bringing everyone together and try to fight this thing as one.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			So I will ask again what experts would a coalition government bring In that the Tory government have not already brought in. I really am.i terested to know.
Secondly is there any other country that has already formed a  coalition government. Again I do  not know the answer.
		
Click to expand...

Tashy, just to pull out your 2 questions.

I would hope that all the experts would come up with pretty much the same answers. Some of those answers will include recommendations. Its then up to the politicians to decide how they want to manage the issue. What recommendations are feasible with the resources available. It will be a whole host of judgement calls. There'll be some politicians from all sides whose judgements will be well worth listening to, and there'll be some that you wouldn't give house room to - think about the Tory MP that often blocks private members bills/upskirting… There's a few in Cabinet I'm not sure are top drawer. Equally, there's a few in opposition that I'd like to see in there.

I cannot see an ounce of sense in not listening to the very intelligent politicians from any party.

Your second question, coalition govts; some countries already have coalition govts. Whether any have been formed purely to address the Covid19 issue, I don't know. But, again, its about not disregarding an option until its proven not to be right. I'm not sure a coalition govt is right, nor do I know if its wrong but its worth considering. And as LT said earlier, there's already cross party working in Select Committees.

The Chancellor was in front of a Select Committee earlier this week, and there was some damn fine questions asked by MP's from all parties. Thankfully he was up to the task, but more importantly those questions were asked, and asked by very intelligent people from all sides.

Sorry Tash but I think you've got this one a little wrong.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes mate, prejudices, first was your dig at Corbyn, then we had your first question which you changed above by dropping the word Labour before experts and finally, does it matter if other Countries have formed coalitions or not?

Did you forget Brexit was all controlled and managed under the tory leadership. Did we/they not lose 2 PM’s over it who walked away when the going got tough....etc

We could spend hours on here, left and right, picking holes on what each party is or is not doing, are you aware of the background of every MP in the HoC’s? Are you seriously suggesting no MP outside of the tory party has nothing to offer?
I genuinely don’t care if the man on the moon helps boris, dismissing anybody or offer of help purely on political allegiances is stupidity of the highest order.

Happy to have an enquiry on what we could or should of done once were through this as I’m sure with the benefit of hindsight the knives will be out, but until that time I believe we should bringing everyone together and try to fight this thing as one.
		
Click to expand...

Your last sentence is what I believe  we are already doing. Covid does not ask which colour rosette you wear.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Tashy, just to pull out your 2 questions.

I would hope that all the experts would come up with pretty much the same answers. Some of those answers will include recommendations. Its then up to the politicians to decide how they want to manage the issue. What recommendations are feasible with the resources available. It will be a whole host of judgement calls. There'll be some politicians from all sides whose judgements will be well worth listening to, and there'll be some that you wouldn't give house room to - think about the Tory MP that often blocks private members bills/upskirting… There's a few in Cabinet I'm not sure are top drawer. Equally, there's a few in opposition that I'd like to see in there.

I cannot see an ounce of sense in not listening to the very intelligent politicians from any party.

Your second question, coalition govts; some countries already have coalition govts. Whether any have been formed purely to address the Covid19 issue, I don't know. But, again, its about not disregarding an option until its proven not to be right. I'm not sure a coalition govt is right, nor do I know if its wrong but its worth considering. And as LT said earlier, there's already cross party working in Select Committees.

The Chancellor was in front of a Select Committee earlier this week, and there was some damn fine questions asked by MP's from all parties. Thankfully he was up to the task, but more importantly those questions were asked, and asked by very intelligent people from all sides.

Sorry Tash but I think you've got this one a little wrong.

Having read your post I would say I have got it very right. Your post is the only one that has given a thoughtful and enlightening response to my questions. 
I stated twice, I do not know the answers to my questions and as you mentioned the government is already answering questions from all parties which I did not know.
		
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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Your last sentence is what I believe  we are already doing. *Covid does not ask which colour rosette you wear.*

Click to expand...

Except not Corbyn or Labour experts! You are the one that posted this rubbish mate, no one else, you made it quite clear what your thoughts were on who should or should not help boris and now you post the bit in bold!

Enjoy your holiday and stay safe,


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Except not Corbyn or Labour experts! You are the one that posted this rubbish mate, no one else, you made it quite clear what your thoughts were on who should or should not help boris and now you post the bit in bold!

Enjoy your holiday and stay safe,
		
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 But and this is my last post on the matter. I never posted the original post on this re a labour elect leaders thoughts on having a joint Cobra. I am of the ilk that's it's not broke ( at the moment ) so why fix it. Boris and the Tories seem to be doing a decent job in handling this  crisis. So why muddy the waters. 
Ditto stay safe all of you.


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## 2blue (Mar 22, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			But and this is my last post on the matter. I never posted the original post on this re a labour elect leaders thoughts on having a joint Cobra. I am of the ilk that's it's not broke ( at the moment ) so why fix it. Boris and the Tories seem to be doing a decent job in handling this  crisis. So why muddy the waters.
Ditto stay safe all of you.
		
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Waiting until things break before you look for a fix has been found to be not a right good approach. Also you need to be aware of when you've got a big enough hole for yourself.....  'cos that's when you need to stop digging..... especially after multiple times.


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## BrianM (Mar 22, 2020)

You's too need to get a room, this isn't a time to be arguing about politics.
Coronavirus doesn't care if you're Tories or Labour, or Black or white.
Boris is doing the best he can with advice from the best medical people in the country, im not his biggest fan but he seems to be doing alright in exceptional circumstances.
We need to try and stick together in what is going to be a rough few months.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 22, 2020)

Problem solving is quite strange. The success of solving a problem is purely based on the person leading. We as the public are not part of the process and should not interfere unless invited.
Boris has his strategy and we see two specialists, but I hope behind them are more specialists and a modesty to ask those who have a greater experience of Covid-19. 
But if we are following a 6 sigma, several w’s approach we are disregarding some of our most powerful problem solving tools. There are people who view problems totally differently and I hope they are included. 
Time will tell and I hope this brings us closer as a planet not mere factions that speak different languages or the same language with different accents.


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## Slab (Mar 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Queues of traffic trying to leave Madrid today. Police are stopping all of them and asking for proof of primary address, of where they are going. Anyone not having that proof is being turned back AND fined €30,000.

Yes you read it right. €30,000.

Police locally have set up a number of road blocks today. Must have a valid reason for going out. Must be going to your nearest shop. Must have a receipt if you've been shopping - no loading up bags from your cupboard. €1,000 fine if you can't satisfy the local Police. And if your address isn't local, its €30,000.

Army are well in evidence too.
		
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Pretty similar here. Declared cases now up to 14 with 1 death
Gov is not hanging around now on containment


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## Fish (Mar 22, 2020)

We are precisely tracking the picture in Italy 14 days ago. They had 233 deaths at that point as we do now. 

They now have 4,825 dead!

 If the measures we have taken haven't been followed or were inadequate we are about to get overwhelmed. 

We may be too late to stop this first wave, but really, for the sake of your loved ones, everyone follow the government’s advice 👍


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 22, 2020)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...ENS-shutting-Britain-REALLY-right-answer.html


You can always rely on Peter "Bonkers" Hitchens to come out with the most ridiculous, insane and frankly dangerous views of any "journalist".   The man is a complete and utter lunatic.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...ENS-shutting-Britain-REALLY-right-answer.html


You can always rely on Peter "Bonkers" Hitchens to come out with the most ridiculous, insane and frankly dangerous views of any "journalist".   The man is a complete and utter lunatic.
		
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And yet a lot of the medical catastrophes that the experts warned us about simply didn't happen, as he points out.  He may hold a different viewpoint but unlike some he has at least backed it up to some degree.  You may not agree with him, but that does not make him a lunatic.  From the article;

"The former editor of The Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, recently listed these unfulfilled scares: bird flu did not kill the predicted millions in 1997. In 1999 it was Mad Cow Disease and its human variant, vCJD, which was predicted to kill half a million. Fewer than 200 in fact died from it in the UK.

The first Sars outbreak of 2003 was reported as having ‘a 25 per cent chance of killing tens of millions’ and being ‘worse than Aids’. In 2006, another bout of bird flu was declared ‘the first pandemic of the 21st Century’.

There were similar warnings in 2009, that swine flu could kill 65,000. It did not. The Council of Europe described the hyping of the 2009 pandemic as ‘one of the great medical scandals of the century’. Well, we shall no doubt see.

But while I see very little evidence of a pandemic, and much more of a PanicDemic, I can witness on my daily round the slow strangulation of dozens of small businesses near where I live and work, and the catastrophic collapse of a flourishing society, all these things brought on by a Government policy made out of fear and speculation rather than thought."


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2020)

Oh great the city dwellers and their camper vans are all de-camping to the hills of Scotland and Wales and the beaches of Cornwall.
I sense their tyres might receive some surgery.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet a lot of the medical catastrophes that the experts warned us about simply didn't happen, as he points out.  He may hold a different viewpoint but unlike some he has at least backed it up to some degree.  You may not agree with him, but that does not make him a lunatic.  From the article;

"The former editor of The Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, recently listed these unfulfilled scares: bird flu did not kill the predicted millions in 1997. In 1999 it was Mad Cow Disease and its human variant, vCJD, which was predicted to kill half a million. Fewer than 200 in fact died from it in the UK.

The first Sars outbreak of 2003 was reported as having ‘a 25 per cent chance of killing tens of millions’ and being ‘worse than Aids’. In 2006, another bout of bird flu was declared ‘the first pandemic of the 21st Century’.

There were similar warnings in 2009, that swine flu could kill 65,000. It did not. The Council of Europe described the hyping of the 2009 pandemic as ‘one of the great medical scandals of the century’. Well, we shall no doubt see.

But while I see very little evidence of a pandemic, and much more of a PanicDemic, I can witness on my daily round the slow strangulation of dozens of small businesses near where I live and work, and the catastrophic collapse of a flourishing society, all these things brought on by a Government policy made out of fear and speculation rather than thought."
		
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If you wake up tomorrow and magically find you are the new Prime Minister, what would you do?


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 22, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet a lot of the medical catastrophes that the experts warned us about simply didn't happen, as he points out.  He may hold a different viewpoint but unlike some he has at least backed it up to some degree.  You may not agree with him, but that does not make him a lunatic.  From the article;

"The former editor of The Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, recently listed these unfulfilled scares: bird flu did not kill the predicted millions in 1997. In 1999 it was Mad Cow Disease and its human variant, vCJD, which was predicted to kill half a million. Fewer than 200 in fact died from it in the UK.

The first Sars outbreak of 2003 was reported as having ‘a 25 per cent chance of killing tens of millions’ and being ‘worse than Aids’. In 2006, another bout of bird flu was declared ‘the first pandemic of the 21st Century’.

There were similar warnings in 2009, that swine flu could kill 65,000. It did not. The Council of Europe described the hyping of the 2009 pandemic as ‘one of the great medical scandals of the century’. Well, we shall no doubt see.

But while I see very little evidence of a pandemic, and much more of a PanicDemic, I can witness on my daily round the slow strangulation of dozens of small businesses near where I live and work, and the catastrophic collapse of a flourishing society, all these things brought on by a Government policy made out of fear and speculation rather than thought."
		
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I can't bring myself to read the utter gash he spouts but if that's him backing him up his point then has so wide of the goal he's missed the corner flag. Sars, bird flu, mad cow disease (which isn't even a f%@#ing virus) were not championed by WHO. The viruses were credible threats but were in no way as easily transmitted as Covid-19 has already proved to be. And if the burk has done any research outside of his bubble there are already healthcare systems being overwhelmed by it as it has travelled around the world in under 3 months.
I'll give him his due, he knows his audience and he sticks to his playbook.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet a lot of the medical catastrophes that the experts warned us about simply didn't happen, as he points out.  He may hold a different viewpoint but unlike some he has at least backed it up to some degree.  You may not agree with him, but that does not make him a lunatic.  From the article;

"The former editor of The Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, recently listed these unfulfilled scares: bird flu did not kill the predicted millions in 1997. In 1999 it was Mad Cow Disease and its human variant, vCJD, which was predicted to kill half a million. Fewer than 200 in fact died from it in the UK.

The first Sars outbreak of 2003 was reported as having ‘a 25 per cent chance of killing tens of millions’ and being ‘worse than Aids’. In 2006, another bout of bird flu was declared ‘the first pandemic of the 21st Century’.

There were similar warnings in 2009, that swine flu could kill 65,000. It did not. The Council of Europe described the hyping of the 2009 pandemic as ‘one of the great medical scandals of the century’. Well, we shall no doubt see.

*But while I see very little evidence of a pandemic,* and much more of a PanicDemic, I can witness on my daily round the slow strangulation of dozens of small businesses near where I live and work, and the catastrophic collapse of a flourishing society, all these things brought on by a Government policy made out of fear and speculation rather than thought."
		
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That quote sums it up to me, although it has been classified as a pandemic by people a lot more qualified than he is, it has not impacted him yet. He has not lost relatives, I'm alright Jack, he doesn't want to change his lifestyle so let's throw a bone to the conspiracy nuts.  It's all about him and how dare the government interfere with his way of life, as it always is with his types.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...ENS-shutting-Britain-REALLY-right-answer.html


You can always rely on Peter "Bonkers" Hitchens to come out with the most ridiculous, insane and frankly dangerous views of any "journalist".   The man is a complete and utter lunatic.
		
Click to expand...

Italy.

Italy, Italy, Italy.

If he wants evidence he needs to get off his ar5e and tour northern Italy. He needs to spend an hour in a tent hospital. He needs to do the rounds with the undertaker, picking up the bodies.

There was a piece on Sky News last night from a town in northern Italy. 76 dead in one day. 55 of those that died weren't added to the C19 numbers because they died at home - to be fair not all of them would have been C19, a few would have been 'natural causes.'  Extrapolate that 55 around other towns and villages. Was every death in China subject to a PM? What are the true numbers?

A bit of seasonal flu? Aye, right.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

BrianM said:



			You's too need to get a room, this isn't a time to be arguing about politics.
Coronavirus doesn't care if you're Tories or Labour, or Black or white.
Boris is doing the best he can with advice from the best medical people in the country, im not his biggest fan but he seems to be doing alright in exceptional circumstances.
We need to try and stick together in what is going to be a rough few months.
		
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It’s two, not too if that’s aimed at me and tash! I made 2 posts (1 more than you) and both saying what you’ve put above, either read and move on or save the sanctimonious crap!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2020)

Ummm guys
Play nice now, 

Ta 👍


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## Fromtherough (Mar 22, 2020)

Day two of socially distancing is Mother’s Day. Not significant in the greater scheme of things, but it’s really difficult not to go and see my Mam (both her and the old fella fall into vulnerable category) today. Hopefully, the rest of the country can refrain too. 

Some of this socially distancing isn’t too bad, bad all the worrying. We had a lovely family day yesterday, doing nothing in particular (probably helped by fact no sport on tv). Highlight was my seven year olds attempts to video call both sets of grandparents. Genuine comedy gold. 0% success rate up to now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Me and Mrs SILH think we’ll cope fine with putting ourselves in quarantine or self isolating - the hardest thing will be not seeing our children.  Our daughter lives only a few miles away but pops in a lot and is, and has been, fabulous caring support through the (quite a few) last few years of family and personal problems.

Our son up in Sheffield has a difficult life with his girlfriend and money, and we see him enough to reassure him of our continued love and commitment to supporting him.  Yes FaceTime etc are there but the hug is so important - especially between father and son.  I didn’t get much of that with my dad (typical of a Scottish dad born early 20s some might say) but in his later life we did share an occasional hug - and now that he’s gone the remembering of what I felt these few times makes sharing one with my lad so important.

Anyway.  Needs must. #staysafekeepwell


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			Day two of socially distancing is Mother’s Day. Not significant in the greater scheme of things, but it’s really difficult not to go and see my Mam (both her and the old fella fall into vulnerable category) today. Hopefully, the rest of the country can refrain too.

Some of this socially distancing isn’t too bad, bad all the worrying. We had a lovely family day yesterday, doing nothing in particular (probably helped by fact no sport on tv). Highlight was my seven year olds attempts to video call both sets of grandparents. Genuine comedy gold. 0% success rate up to now.
		
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I see visiting elderly parents as like going all in with a pair of Jacks on the second hand of the night. You may win, but the consequences of losing are not good so now is probably not the time. 

I think society needs to understand the concept of risk a bit more. In that it is impact as well as probability.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see visiting elderly parents as like going all in with a pair of Jacks on the second hand of the night. You may win, but the consequences of losing are not good so now is probably not the time.

I think society needs to understand the concept of risk a bit more. In that it is impact as well as probability.
		
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My wife is just back yesterday from seeing her elderly mum.  She was just saying last night how distraught she’d be if her mum contracted cv in the next week or two.  I tried to reassure her that if she herself had contracted the virus then she would most likely spot symptoms sooner than her mother - but of course we know that that is not actually true as not all become symptomatic - and in any case what would that matter...

keep your nearest and dearest safe by keeping away from them unless you have to be with them


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

Absolutely gobsmacked to see the pictures from Skegness and Snowdon yesterday! Described as worse than a Bank Holiday.

Unfortunately until we go in to complete lockdown I still think there’s too many thinking it won’t happen to them.

Some of it, maybe, comes from the mixed messages we see/hear in the media.


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## Fromtherough (Mar 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see visiting elderly parents as like going all in with a pair of Jacks on the second hand of the night. You may win, but the consequences of losing are not good so now is probably not the time.

I think society needs to understand the concept of risk a bit more. In that it is impact as well as probability.
		
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Good way of summing up and looking at it.


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## Dan2501 (Mar 22, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241466385722720263
Idiots. It's a global pandemic, not a bank holiday. Stay at home.


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2020)

Every picture like this brings total lockdown, except for work and food shopping, one step closer


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely gobsmacked to see the pictures from Skegness and Snowdon yesterday! Described as worse than a Bank Holiday.

Unfortunately until we go in to complete lockdown I still think there’s too many thinking it won’t happen to them.

Some of it, maybe, comes from the mixed messages we see/hear in the media.
		
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Its a tough one Paul. "It won't happen to me" syndrome is an issue in so many accidents and incidents. The enormity of what's in front of people makes the connection a little hard for some people to acknowledge.

Even in lockdown you'll get examples of it, and of selfishness. Fine 'em, take the car off them, and broadcast it, and you'll still get people doing it. The police and the judiciary are harsher over here, and it is still happening... that's life. Best not get too het up about it, and just leave the powers that be handle it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one Paul. "It won't happen to me" syndrome is an issue in so many accidents and incidents. The enormity of what's in front of people makes the connection a little hard for some people to acknowledge.

Even in lockdown you'll get examples of it, and of selfishness. Fine 'em, take the car off them, and broadcast it, and you'll still get people doing it. The police and the judiciary are harsher over here, and it is still happening... that's life. Best not get too het up about it, and just leave the powers that be handle it.
		
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Just shocked at the sheer number Bri, you’ll always get the “odd” exception, just didn’t expect the “odd” to be in the thousands.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh great the city dwellers and their camper vans are all de-camping to the hills of Scotland and Wales and the beaches of Cornwall.
I sense their tyres might receive some surgery.

Click to expand...

Don't tar them all with the same brush Doon....mine is remaining on the drive, as are most who have drives...
On the other hand there are a lot who would otherwise be spread across Europe and have been sent 'home'- but don't have home's and drives here anymore. These represent a significant proportion of those you are currently seeing.
The rest are simply a sub set of the wider group that simply haven't got it currently - as represented by the crowds (filmed) heading to Snowdonia.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And yet a lot of the medical catastrophes that the experts warned us about simply didn't happen, as he points out.  He may hold a different viewpoint but unlike some he has at least backed it up to some degree.  You may not agree with him, but that does not make him a lunatic.  From the article;

"The former editor of The Times, Sir Simon Jenkins, recently listed these unfulfilled scares: bird flu did not kill the predicted millions in 1997. In 1999 it was Mad Cow Disease and its human variant, vCJD, which was predicted to kill half a million. Fewer than 200 in fact died from it in the UK.

The first Sars outbreak of 2003 was reported as having ‘a 25 per cent chance of killing tens of millions’ and being ‘worse than Aids’. In 2006, another bout of bird flu was declared ‘the first pandemic of the 21st Century’.

There were similar warnings in 2009, that swine flu could kill 65,000. It did not. The Council of Europe described the hyping of the 2009 pandemic as ‘one of the great medical scandals of the century’. Well, we shall no doubt see.

But while I see very little evidence of a pandemic, and much more of a PanicDemic, I can witness on my daily round the slow strangulation of dozens of small businesses near where I live and work, and the catastrophic collapse of a flourishing society, all these things brought on by a Government policy made out of fear and speculation rather than thought."
		
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It’s a good point about previous scare stories amounting to very little and I wonder if that’s in the back of a lot of people’s minds who seem to be taking the warnings with a pinch of salt....Worth remembering what eventually happened to The Little Boy who Cried Wolf. ☹️


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I sense their tyres might receive some surgery.

Click to expand...

Brilliant 
Slash their tyres so they cant leave


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## Dando (Mar 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			What's this "hair" or which you speak?
I'll have you know my avatar is remarkably accurate[/QUOTE

😂🤣 that photos at least 20 years old 😂🤣🤣🤣
		
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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2020)

And I've changed..?


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## Wolf (Mar 22, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s a good point about previous scare stories amounting to very little and I wonder if that’s in the back of a lot of people’s minds who seem to be taking the warnings with a pinch of salt....Worth remembering what eventually happened to *The Little Boy who Cried Wolf. ☹️*

Click to expand...

I would like to distance myself from any little boys harmed in the making of this post or story 😂


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh great the city dwellers and their camper vans are all de-camping to the hills of Scotland and Wales and the beaches of Cornwall.
I sense their tyres might receive some surgery.

Click to expand...

My caravan will be coming out of winter storage as soon as I get home, but only for me to drive it home to park on the drive for me to self isolate in for 7 days before I go back in to the house. With Mrs Colch being in one of the high risk categories I can't take the chance that I've picked something up while away and take it back in to the house. I'll hook it up to the house electric and have already told her that I'm going to get her to put the TV and PS4 on the doorstep for me to have in isolation. Will have the fridge and cooker so will be all set for a peaceful 7 days. Only problem is that the shower doesn't work so I'm going to be a bit whiffy when I come out of isolation.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Every picture like this brings total lockdown, except for work and food shopping, one step closer
		
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You'd of hoped the science would lead the timing of a lockdown.  But the fact that there are too many arse holes in society will also work.


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## Dando (Mar 22, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My caravan will be coming out of winter storage as soon as I get home, but only for me to drive it home to park on the drive for me to self isolate in for 7 days before I go back in to the house. With Mrs Colch being in one of the high risk categories I can't take the chance that I've picked something up while away and take it back in to the house. I'll hook it up to the house electric and have already told her that I'm going to get her to put the TV and PS4 on the doorstep for me to have in isolation. Will have the fridge and cooker so will be all set for a peaceful 7 days. Only problem is that the shower doesn't work so I'm going to be a bit whiffy when I come out of isolation.
		
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Our caravan is stored on a site near Leeds castle and it’s been great here this weekend. 
Not sure I really want to go home as we’ve got plenty of food, wine and beer was replenished yesterday from the chapel down winery and I’ve got my laptop so can work remotely


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 22, 2020)

We also need a bit of thinking out of the box and imagination by people running quango type things, e.g. R.s.p.b, Nat trust, etc.
People isolating and being told to exercise means walks in countryside are not frowned on (yet)- mental well being and so on.
So, why aren't gates not left permanently open ( livestock retention permitting). With appropriate notices saying why.
Walkers opening and closing gates after each other etc...
Come on... such organisations have well paid execs. Get acting.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

Just thought I'd share my Control of Infection 'protocols' for my shopping trip on Thursday. 

Thankfully it wasn't too warm a day.
1) Long sleeved shirt & long trousers.
2) Gloves and mask.
3) Parked with at least 3 spare spaces around, and in an area of the car park that wouldn't fill up.
4) Maintained social distancing in the queue to go into the shop, and with only 10 people at any one time, didn't pass anyone in any aisle.
5) When I'd left home I'd purposely left the gate open, no touching the gate. And I'd left instructions for HID to open the front door as I pulled up.
6) Unloaded direct into the kitchen cupboards.
7) Stripped off direct into the washer - washer door already open, which HID closed after I'd left the kitchen. She was in the dining area until I was in the shower.
8) Straight into the shower.
9) No going out for either of us for the next 10 days, till the next shopping trip, which will give time for any symptoms to manifest themselves.

OTT? Paranoid? I was surrounded by other paranoid people. Quite what they did when they got home... 

And in the last 2 days the rate of growth in C19 numbers in the Almeria region has dropped. The curve might just be flattening.


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2020)

Friends in India fwded a whatsapp message ‘ *Riots in London due to unavailability of food items . FAKE NEWS:  I was sent this clip on social media with the words “Just received now* .
*Probably tonight Total UK will be locked down . Army Personnels being seen coming on streets* . 👇 👇 👇... these are clips from 2011 Riots in London. “ 

This was followed by video of 2011 London riots.. What kind of deuchbags do these.. what is the point in this fear mongering


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 22, 2020)

Well, they have said 20,000 deaths would be a good outcome, so only about 1% through this...
I’m guessing a good outcome is based on people actually following what the government is saying, but looking at the pictures from Brighton, Snowdonia, Skegness etc this weekend, I don’t believe there’ll be a “good” outcome. 
People are simply to thick and selfish. 

Call in the army, enforce lock down and start handing out fines and arrest people.


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Friends in India fwded a whatsapp message ‘ *Riots in London due to unavailability of food items . FAKE NEWS:  I was sent this clip on social media with the words “Just received now* .
*Probably tonight Total UK will be locked down . Army Personnels being seen coming on streets* . 👇 👇 👇... these are clips from 2011 Riots in London. “

This was followed by video of 2011 London riots.. What kind of deuchbags do these.. what is the point in this fear mongering
		
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Problem is that these video clips are out there on the internet. Someone spots it while trawling, doesn't note the date and starts sharing it because they think it's up to date 
Not necessarily people doing it maliciously, people just need to think about what they do and say.
The world is a fragile place at the moment and the wrong video at the wrong time and it could explode....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			We also need a bit of thinking out of the box and imagination by people running quango type things, e.g. R.s.p.b, Nat trust, etc.
People isolating and being told to exercise means walks in countryside are not frowned on (yet)- mental well being and so on.
So, why aren't gates not left permanently open ( livestock retention permitting). With appropriate notices saying why.
Walkers opening and closing gates after each other etc...
Come on... such organisations have well paid execs. Get acting.
		
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I think the Nat Trust have closed all their properties from last night.  They just get too busy.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Brilliant 
Slash their tyres so they cant leave  

Click to expand...

A tad harsh on the locals...

We've an open invitation to go and sit it all out with a close friend in deepest darkest Wales... But have, so far, declined...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just thought I'd share my Control of Infection 'protocols' for my shopping trip on Thursday.

Thankfully it wasn't too warm a day.
1) Long sleeved shirt & long trousers.
2) Gloves and mask.
3) Parked with at least 3 spare spaces around, and in an area of the car park that wouldn't fill up.
4) Maintained social distancing in the queue to go into the shop, and with only 10 people at any one time, didn't pass anyone in any aisle.
5) When I'd left home I'd purposely left the gate open, no touching the gate. And I'd left instructions for HID to open the front door as I pulled up.
6) Unloaded direct into the kitchen cupboards.
7) Stripped off direct into the washer - washer door already open, which HID closed after I'd left the kitchen. She was in the dining area until I was in the shower.
8) Straight into the shower.
9) No going out for either of us for the next 10 days, till the next shopping trip, which will give time for any symptoms to manifest themselves.

OTT? Paranoid? I was surrounded by other paranoid people. Quite what they did when they got home...

And in the last 2 days the rate of growth in C19 numbers in the Almeria region has dropped. The curve might just be flattening.
		
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Thanks for that Brian - just read list to my wife and she congrats you both on taking such a responsible approach and we’ll start adopting ourselves.  Take care.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

Just announced... Spain extends lockdown by another week... another 15 days to go.... due to the Spanish Constitution, barring a change in the law, that's all he can do - just keep extending by a week. If Sanchez wants a full month it requires too much faff.

*EDIT... date the lockdown will end, unless extended further, is the 12th April...*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh great the city dwellers and their camper vans are all de-camping to the hills of Scotland and Wales and the beaches of Cornwall.
I sense their tyres might receive some surgery.

Click to expand...

The Hebridean island of my father and many of my relatives still there is demanding that CalMac stop bringing outsiders with camper vans and holiday home owners onto the island.  It can’t cope - it has no facilities to cope and support.


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## Mudball (Mar 22, 2020)

My wife has gone mental... she wants to grow veggies ... this despite the fact that the plant mortality rate in our garden is more than Corona and Ebola combined.  Not sure how we grow these with full time jobs


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## duncan mackie (Mar 22, 2020)

Dando said:



			Our caravan is stored on a site near Leeds castle and it’s been great here this weekend.
Not sure I really want to go home as we’ve got plenty of food, wine and beer was replenished yesterday from the chapel down winery and I’ve got my laptop so can work remotely
		
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Sorry, but I don't think you have quite got this yet - you have travelled down to your holiday caravan for the weekend, and will be travelling back again.
What made this essential travel?

I understand that people will do what they wish unless prevented; but why would you post that you are doing this in a thread highlighting what people are continuing to do despite the government requests?


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## hovis (Mar 22, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Sorry, but I don't think you have quite got this yet - you have travelled down to your holiday caravan for the weekend, and will be travelling back again.
What made this essential travel?

I understand that people will do what they wish unless prevented; but why would you post that you are doing this in a thread highlighting what people are continuing to do despite the government requests?
		
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i agree 100%.  these people are going to ruin it for the rest of us when they resort to total lock down


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

Fair warning as there is a lot of potty mouth language.  But very funny for anyone who has seen The Irishman. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241093138837647361


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Sorry, but I don't think you have quite got this yet - you have travelled down to your holiday caravan for the weekend, and will be travelling back again.
What made this essential travel?

I understand that people will do what they wish unless prevented; but why would you post that you are doing this in a thread highlighting what people are continuing to do despite the government requests?
		
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If he had no contact with other people, why shouldn't he spend the weekend in his caravan ?


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## hovis (Mar 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If he had no contact with other people, why shouldn't he spend the weekend in his caravan ?
		
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in theory yes but "I'm just popping to the shop, im just going to say hello to Bob i haven't seen him in years and so on" 
maybe the odd person is responsible with this but imo the majority?  just stay away


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Sorry, but I don't think you have quite got this yet - you have travelled down to your holiday caravan for the weekend, and will be travelling back again.
What made this essential travel?

I understand that people will do what they wish unless prevented; but why would you post that you are doing this in a thread highlighting what people are continuing to do despite the government requests?
		
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If hes driving hes not affecting others and if hes in his caravan hes no more socialising than when hes home. What's the problem?


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Brilliant
Slash their tyres so they cant leave  

Click to expand...

Aye, leave and then infect another place.
Slashing their tyres would at least stop them from travelling around [not that I am advocating that]

BiL saying that they are fighting to get an any IOW ferry.
Hampshire is a hot spot, IOW has 2 cases.

There is our Judy telling it like it is.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...o-the-countryside/ar-BB11xbfE?ocid=spartandhp

Nine campervans queued up at Drumore [Mull of Galloway] demanding entry to the closed site.


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## garyinderry (Mar 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If he had no contact with other people, why shouldn't he spend the weekend in his caravan ?
		
Click to expand...



They spoke about this on the news.  It's when people do it en masse it becomes a problem. The local shops cant handle the increased demand for supplies and also these places tend to be further from big hospitals putting a strain on local heath centres.

There is also the risk of spreading the disease. You could drive out feeling perfectly fine, infect a few people at the shop getting milk and the virus infects a new area.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

hovis said:



			in theory yes but "I'm just popping to the shop, im just going to say hello to Bob i haven't seen him in years and so on"
maybe the odd person is responsible with this but imo the majority?  just stay away
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, what ifs are the issue, what if he breaks down, what if there’s an accident, surely all these un-necessary journeys could impact the emergency services if they are required.

However, the same could be said for those of us still playing Golf!


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## Slime (Mar 22, 2020)




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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			They spoke about this on the news.  It's when people do it en masse it becomes a problem. The local shops cant handle the increased demand for supplies and also these places tend to be further from big hospitals putting a strain on local heath centres.

There is also the risk of spreading the disease. You could drive out feeling perfectly fine, infect a few people at the shop getting milk and the virus infects a new area.
		
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Equally, someone travels from an area that is free of infection to an area with infection, then takes it back home. Its just bloody stupid...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Hebridean island of my father and many of my relatives still there is demanding that CalMac stop bringing outsiders with camper vans and holiday home owners onto the island.  It can’t cope - it has no facilities to cope and support.
		
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Have you seen the Isle of Barra coronavirus protection plans.
A small village hall with 6 basic camp beds.
I do not think the island even has a GP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2020)

hovis said:



			in theory yes but "I'm just popping to the shop, im just going to say hello to Bob i haven't seen him in years and so on"
maybe the odd person is responsible with this but imo the majority?  just stay away
		
Click to expand...

Also the risk of a car breakdown/accident, or is that something only other folk get,


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## IanM (Mar 22, 2020)

Just deleted Twitter from my phone.  Too much horsepoo on there.  Not worth giving it the time of day

And my car needs an Mot on Friday.   I wonder whether that is a must do or can it wait?


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

IanM said:



			Just deleted Twitter from my phone.  Too much horsepoo on there.  Not worth giving it the time of day

And my car needs an Mot on Friday.   I wonder whether that is a must do or can it wait?
		
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MOT(ITV) testing suspended in Spain till after the lockdown. All vehicles have been given a 30 day extension.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If he had no contact with other people, why shouldn't he spend the weekend in his caravan ?
		
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What about a RTA on the way or coming home.
Services are stretched that’s why essential travel will need to be enforced.


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## drdel (Mar 22, 2020)

Idiots and their supercars are in Kensingston with spectators. Confiscate the cars and give the proceeds of the sales to a nurses charities.


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## User20204 (Mar 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fair warning as there is a lot of potty mouth language.  But very funny for anyone who has seen The Irishman. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241093138837647361

Click to expand...


If you don't get banned for that then it says everything about the moderation on here.


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## Crazyface (Mar 22, 2020)

Went to me local butchers yesterday to get me usual supplies of his finest sausages. Christmas like queue outside. Looked like they were only allowing two people inside at a time. Very sensible. BUT. The stupid people queuing were stood together like sardines in a tin. Didn't bother.


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## larmen (Mar 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			MOT(ITV) testing suspended in Spain till after the lockdown. All vehicles have been given a 30 day extension.
		
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my brother does MOT testing in Germany and he is classed as system relevant (key worker) for the time being.
No idea what happen when they go into full lock down, possibly later today.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 22, 2020)

Some clown has just had a go at me for still allowing separation golf and competitions with all the current health restrictions in place.  And he was standing so close to his mate at the time, the two of them could have been an item.    Thankfully everyone knows he's a plank so six months self-isolation would be paid for by the rest of the membership.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 22, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Some clown has just had a go at me for still allowing separation golf and competitions with all the current health restrictions in place.  And he was standing so close to his mate at the time, the two of them could have been an item.    Thankfully everyone knows he's a plank so six months self-isolation would be paid for by the rest of the membership.
		
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I think he's correct however everyone is welcome to make their own choices.

😷


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## Italian outcast (Mar 22, 2020)

The more hirsute forumers may be wondering about hairstyle QC
Some may have partners whose life-long ambition is to have a go
Their supporting credentials may include '*i've been to the hairdressers often enough -  I've watched how they do it*"
DO not be fooled - charlatans can exist close to home
Sadly its too late for me - I implore you - Please learn from Italy - just say* no!*


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Fair warning as there is a lot of potty mouth language.  But very funny for anyone who has seen The Irishman. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241093138837647361

Click to expand...

Just read the comments in that.
‘’Think I must be the only one who thought it was poor 

Pacino was alright. De Nero mannerisms pretty good. But if I’d simply listened I’d. Ever have guessed who he was impersonating.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

Numbers just announced for the new cases confirmed in Andalucia.

Thursday 279
Friday 228
Saturday 210

Too early to say things are improving significantly. Bear in mind a lot of Andalucia is sparely populated once you get away from the likes of Sevilla, Malaga and Granada. They are is still suffering climbing new numbers.

Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia are also still seeing climbing new numbers, not helped by poor adherence to the lockdown up north.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If he had no contact with other people, why shouldn't he spend the weekend in his caravan ?
		
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Oof I know you want to defend your forum mates but surely you can see it's wrong.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2020)

Lovely weather not helping, just back from Belus Woods with the dog, the country park bit which I avoid has a play park... Yup absolutely packed. Kids and parents all sitting around playing, chatting, eating. 
Shame it’s not pouring down, would really keep people at home.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 22, 2020)

Went for a walk with wife and kids this morning on the hills,made sure we kept well away from people.
It was very busy though looks like everyone had the same idea.
Just went down the local field by the Astro to have a kick around with the boy it’s 150 yards from the house.
3 other lads using the goal so we kept well away.
However on the Astro 20 lads in their 20s and 30s playing together.
Now I understand there’s not a law prohibiting this yet just the general guidelines but did it make my blood boil.
Maybe I’m wrong but all the things I’ve heard are keep out of groups of 5 or more unless immediate family.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			If you don't get banned for that then it says everything about the moderation on here.
		
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Deep down, are you really happy?


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)




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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Me and Mrs went for a walk into Town Centre - we live in town so a short walk.  Very quiet and everyone maintains good separation.  Town centre Supmarkets almost empty and well stocked with pretty much everything except fresh meat and chicken and toilet roll. And that’s us now indoors for as long as it takes.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I think he's correct *however everyone is welcome to make their own choices.*

😷
		
Click to expand...

well you say that......

(and just to be clear this is no judgement on whatever was being discussed, just more of a general observation that trusting the public to make their own choices for the well being of everyone doesn't seem to be working too well at the moment).


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 22, 2020)

Reading these posts and reading the latest from the Government, which I believe is from Housing sec Jenrick, there seems a mixed message.
Social distancing is necessary. Agreed. Unless it is necessary to go out-work etc.
But are we to remain at home unless the trip is necessary?
It would seem so, but then it suggests it is ok to go out for walks, exercise.(sic).
Driving therefore to go to the walks is or is not favoured? I can see the argument that  you risk undoing all if an accident occurs.
Which means all golf should stop, even single or couple playing?

Seeing what people are doing I can see lock down being imminent.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 22, 2020)

IanM said:



*Just deleted Twitter from my phone.  Too much horsepoo on there.  Not worth giving it the time of day*

And my car needs an Mot on Friday.   I wonder whether that is a must do or can it wait?
		
Click to expand...

Twas always the way though. What about reviewing who you follow? Admit it can get a bit echo chambery if you do that, but there is some good stuff on there if you block the nut jobs.


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## Robster59 (Mar 22, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My caravan will be coming out of winter storage as soon as I get home, but only for me to drive it home to park on the drive for me to self isolate in for 7 days before I go back in to the house. With Mrs Colch being in one of the high risk categories I can't take the chance that I've picked something up while away and take it back in to the house. I'll hook it up to the house electric and have already told her that I'm going to get her to put the TV and PS4 on the doorstep for me to have in isolation. Will have the fridge and cooker so will be all set for a peaceful 7 days. Only problem is that the shower doesn't work so I'm going to be a bit whiffy when I come out of isolation.
		
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I may have to do the same if I get it.  However given I've got two high risk people in the house, I'm not planning on going anywhere soon.


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## Fish (Mar 22, 2020)

So listening to the news whilst just driving back from Woodhall, it would seem that ‘many’ pubs in Scotland have refused to close!

I thought this was a government instruction, and if so, they should be forced to close and then be prosecuted and have their license removed.

If this is simply an anti Westminster, ‘I’m not being told to close by Boris syndrome’, then the crankee needs to do her job and clamp down on all of them and hit them hard, as it’s dangerous, selfish and is sending out all the wrong signals if they’re allowed to stay open!!


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			So listening to the news whilst just driving back from Woodhall, it would seem that ‘many’ pubs in Scotland have refused to close!

I thought this was a government instruction, and if so, they should be forced to close and then be prosecuted and have their license removed.

If this is simply an anti Westminster, ‘I’m not being told to close by Boris syndrome’, then the dwarf needs to do her job and clamp down on all of them and hit them hard, as it’s dangerous, selfish and is sending out all the wrong signals if they’re allowed to stay open!!
		
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Fair do's to the lady, been very firm on the action about to be taken to these morons.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)




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## User62651 (Mar 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			So listening to the news whilst just driving back from Woodhall, it would seem that ‘many’ pubs in Scotland have refused to close!

I thought this was a government instruction, and if so, they should be forced to close and then be prosecuted and have their license removed.

If this is simply an anti Westminster, ‘I’m not being told to close by Boris syndrome’, then the dwarf needs to do her job and clamp down on all of them and hit them hard, as it’s dangerous, selfish and is sending out all the wrong signals if they’re allowed to stay open!!
		
Click to expand...

'The dwarf' - is that really nescessary?
I doubt very much it's anti westminster, more like businesses trying to get as much cash as poss before closure enforcement, people are very worrried here like anywhere going by the facebook groups etc but like everywhere some younger to middle aged 'healthy' people and some oldies aren't getting the message or dont care. Maybe Boris needed to be firmer/absolute in his instruction, it was too ambivalent.
All the pubs i saw today in town were closed as were a good many shops. We went out to a remote beach to walk the dog as a family group of 4 that live under one roof, didn't get near anyone so I think that's ok.
Not adhering to government advice is not unique to us way oop north, did you see the queues all over at supermarkets tightly packed despite people being told not to panic buy and separate, hordes on beaches and up Snowdonia etc.
Until this is enforced some people will ignore.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 22, 2020)

Looking at the press conference now, I can only think that the decision has been made that they want to keep the spread of the decease up at current pace, but hoping that the 1,5 million vulnerable will be shielded. Advice and asking people does not work, so I don’t believe this will work at all.


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## Fish (Mar 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Fair do's to the lady, been very firm on the action about to be taken to these morons.
		
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Which is what, what has she said ?


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## BrianM (Mar 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s two, not too if that’s aimed at me and tash! I made 2 posts (1 more than you) and both saying what you’ve put above, either read and move on or save the sanctimonious crap!
		
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It wasn’t aimed at you so wind your neck in.


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## Fish (Mar 22, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			'The dwarf' - is that really nescessary?
I doubt very much it's anti westminster, more like businesses trying to get as much cash as poss before closure enforcement, people are very worrried here like anywhere going by the facebook groups etc but like everywhere some younger to middle aged 'healthy' people and some oldies aren't getting the message or dont care. Maybe Boris needed to be firmer/absolute in his instruction, it was too ambivalent.
All the pubs i saw today in town were closed as were a good many shops. We went out to a remote beach to walk the dog as a family group of 4 that live under one roof, didn't get near anyone so I think that's ok.
Not adhering to government advice is not unique to us way oop north, did you see the queues all over at supermarkets tightly packed despite people being told not to panic buy and separate, hordes on beaches and up Snowdonia etc.
Until this is enforced some people will ignore.
		
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It wasn’t ambivalent, I believe he stated ‘we are telling you to close’, that sounds very much like a direct instruction to me, he’s not ‘asking’ if you could close!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Sorry PM - I fear you are taking too softly softly an approach - bit too touchy feely.  And I really do not want to criticise. But...a plea rather than a criticism.

You have said or at least implied that there will be a complete lockdown at some point soon.  Do it now for gods sake.  Too many individuals do not watch your briefings - do not hear the urgency in your voice in your exhortations to us to keep our distance when out.  All they hear is ‘the government advises...’ and with that they think it’s still ok and not that essential ... not really ...

But things are grim - about to become very grim - desperate measures for desperate times.  Please just do it. Please.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			Which is what, what has she said ?
		
Click to expand...

The Scottish police have said they will use 24hr closure orders on any such establishment and after 24hrs they will apply another 24hr closure order until the legislation is in place.

I thought the Scottish First Minister spoke excellently earlier today - very firmly and very clearly.  She said that if you feel your life is pretty much continuing as normal then you are not complying and you are putting lives at risk.


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## Bazzatron (Mar 22, 2020)

My old man reckons he's cured his Parkinson's so good news.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry PM - I fear you are taking too softly softly an approach - bit too touchy feely.  And I really do not want to criticise. But...a plea rather than a criticism.

You have said or at least implied that there will be a complete lockdown at some point soon.  Do it now for gods sake.  Too many individuals do not watch your briefings - do not hear the urgency in your voice in your exhortations to us to keep our distance when out.  All they hear is ‘the government advises...’ and with that they think it’s still ok and not that essential ... not really ...

But things are grim - about to become very grim - desperate measures for desperate times.  Please just do it. Please.
		
Click to expand...

much prefer watching him than reading an "experts" summing up on the bbc articles .. I like to hear what boris and those either side say rather than when its puffed out to fill a page on the news.. wish they would just report whats been said rather than speculation


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## duncan mackie (Mar 22, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Looking at the press conference now, I can only think that the decision has been made that they want to keep the spread of the decease up at current pace, but hoping that the 1,5 million vulnerable will be shielded. Advice and asking people does not work, so I don’t believe this will work at all.
		
Click to expand...

I get a similar feeling - something along the lines of everyone is going to get it and the best we can do is manage the flow of resources and case count amongst those needing these resources.

Combined with a bit of fingers crossed for vaccine/treatment for those at serious risk from it.

Contagion risk seems closer to the common cold than flu, or even worse.


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## Beezerk (Mar 22, 2020)

A mate texted me earlier, a micro pub a few miles away which opened recently was rammed with drinkers this afternoon.
Insane.


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## BrianM (Mar 22, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My caravan will be coming out of winter storage as soon as I get home, but only for me to drive it home to park on the drive for me to self isolate in for 7 days before I go back in to the house. With Mrs Colch being in one of the high risk categories I can't take the chance that I've picked something up while away and take it back in to the house. I'll hook it up to the house electric and have already told her that I'm going to get her to put the TV and PS4 on the doorstep for me to have in isolation. Will have the fridge and cooker so will be all set for a peaceful 7 days. Only problem is that the shower doesn't work so I'm going to be a bit whiffy when I come out of isolation.
		
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When are you home?
I’m due home on Thursday but we have had crew changes without a second thought, some token gestures on the rig but nowhere near far enough.
We are just going on a drilling campaign now as well 🙈


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## duncan mackie (Mar 22, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			much prefer watching him than reading an "experts" summing up on the bbc articles .. I like to hear what boris and those either side say rather than when its puffed out to fill a page on the news.. wish they would just report whats been said rather than speculation
		
Click to expand...

You have been able to watch most of the press briefing s themselves, live, over the last week...which is a good thing because I agree with you completely. They are getting slightly better - 2 weeks ago they were sensationalising it all (as is the modern style).


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry PM - I fear you are taking too softly softly an approach - bit too touchy feely.  And I really do not want to criticise. But...a plea rather than a criticism.

You have said or at least implied that there will be a complete lockdown at some point soon.  Do it now for gods sake.  Too many individuals do not watch your briefings - do not hear the urgency in your voice in your exhortations to us to keep our distance when out.  All they hear is ‘the government advises...’ and with that they think it’s still ok and not that essential ... not really ...

But things are grim - about to become very grim - desperate measures for desperate times.  Please just do it. Please.
		
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An approach where he hoped people would act responsibly. I can just imagine the uproar on social media and the press if he had gone straight to police & troops on the streets.  If people did as they are told it wouldn't be a problem.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			much prefer watching him than reading an "experts" summing up on the bbc articles .. I like to hear what boris and those either side say rather than when its puffed out to fill a page on the news.. wish they would just report whats been said rather than speculation
		
Click to expand...

I agree - the briefings are excellent - for those of us watching and listening.  But many I fear do not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			An approach where he hoped people would act responsibly. I can just imagine the uproar on social media and the press if he had gone straight to police & troops on the streets.  If people did as they are told it wouldn't be a problem.
		
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Absolutely agree - but many are not.  We set out to walk into town.  If it had been busy out we would have turned round and returned home.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely agree - but many are not.
		
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The minority will spoil it for the majority, a common theme in today's society.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - the briefings are excellent - for those of us watching and listening.  But many I fear do not.
		
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Unfortunately, the ones that need to watch it are on NetFlicks


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - the briefings are excellent - for those of us watching and listening.  But many I fear do not.
		
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ive had to find the best way to watch aswell.... on my phone atm so my daugther can watch her shows on tv otherwise she gets bored and tries to get me away from watching .. first world problems


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## larmen (Mar 22, 2020)

I logged in too late and only got some of the Q&A. Can someone give me  a2 sentence summary of that shielding?


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## AmandaJR (Mar 22, 2020)

1.5m very vulnerable identified by the NHS to self-isolate and stay home for 12 weeks.

Hubs will be set up to support them in terms of meds and supplies.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 22, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			I get a similar feeling - something along the lines of everyone is going to get it and the best we can do is manage the flow of resources and case count amongst those needing these resources.

Combined with a bit of fingers crossed for vaccine/treatment for those at serious risk from it.

Contagion risk seems closer to the common cold than flu, or even worse.
		
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Exactly. I cannot see it in any other way. UK is almost precisely 2 weeks behind Italy and following the same pattern, but when Italy locked down, UK still advising people. How on earth could that by any means mean less people affected? 

I believe Boris and his advisors now prey like they have never done before that these 1.5 million will comply better. I hope I’m wrong, but I believe UK is gonna pay an even higher price than Italy and Spain.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2020)

BrianM said:



			When are you home?
I’m due home on Thursday but we have had crew changes without a second thought, some token gestures on the rig but nowhere near far enough.
We are just going on a drilling campaign now as well 🙈
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully by the end of the week. Only got a couple more days of survey to do and then wait for news of any re-runs or infill. Alongside at the minute and due to sail tomorrow so will be back on site tomorrow night. I only hope that if we are put in lock down before I get back that my trip to get the caravan (only 5 minutes from home) can be classed as essential travel. 

Which rig are you on?


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## AmandaJR (Mar 22, 2020)

We went to dog training today. David and myself and our two dogs, one other owner and her dog and the trainer. Big field, lots of space and very easy to social distance. So why oh why did the other owner kind of follow me around...too close for comfort?! If I stepped away, she stepped closer. Perhaps a positive of this in time will be people start to recognise personal space and keep out of it!


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## larmen (Mar 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			1.5m very vulnerable identified by the NHS to self-isolate and stay home for 12 weeks.

Hubs will be set up to support them in terms of meds and supplies.
		
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Cheers. There mentioned 4 ways to contact in the Q&A, will see if I get something.


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## Robster59 (Mar 22, 2020)

Loopholes and excuses. That's what so many are looking for. Ways to prove (to themselves) that the guidelines, rules, etc. don't apply to them. 
You try to get people to behave responsibly, most do but there are sadly (depressingly) too many who don't understand the severity of the situation or think it will never happen to them.  And then they try to look for ways around the rules.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry PM - I fear you are taking too softly softly an approach - bit too touchy feely.  And I really do not want to criticise. But...a plea rather than a criticism.

You have said or at least implied that there will be a complete lockdown at some point soon.  Do it now for gods sake.  Too many individuals do not watch your briefings - do not hear the urgency in your voice in your exhortations to us to keep our distance when out.  All they hear is ‘the government advises...’ and with that they think it’s still ok and not that essential ... not really ...

But things are grim - about to become very grim - desperate measures for desperate times.  Please just do it. Please.
		
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I'm finding myself in agreement with SiLH, along with becoming more impressed with Nicola Sturgeon and Sadiq Khan (neither of whom I can normally stand) with how they are handling things. Can somebody check if Hell has frozen over. Either that or I've got the early stages of Corona Virus which leads to a loss of taste. 

I think that Boris is bottling making the big decisions. There are photos from all over the country showing that people aren't following the advice being given and are still congregating in large numbers. The only way to stop that happening is to enforce a lock down as many people are showing that they are either too stupid or selfish to follow advice. Time to give them no choice and force their hands.


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2020)

A random irritation. A serious irritation at any time but now... speechless.

6 ambulances had their tyres slashed whilst parked up in Ramsgate last night...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			1.5m very vulnerable identified by the NHS to self-isolate and stay home for 12 weeks.

Hubs will be set up to support them in terms of meds and supplies.
		
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Carers will still access as best they can - but it seemed that family in the home or from without could also access. That does not seem to me like shielding as the government wants it to be. Did I misunderstand about family.  I get that essential carers need to continue to support but not clear about family.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 22, 2020)

larmen said:



			Cheers. There mentioned 4 ways to contact in the Q&A, will see if I get something.
		
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They said letter in next dew days followeed up by text and/or phone call. They hope to catch everyone in the risk category but will have a way of being contacted for those who think they should be but haven't been contacted.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Exactly. I cannot see it in any other way. UK is almost precisely 2 weeks behind Italy and following the same pattern, but when Italy locked down, UK still advising people. How on earth could that by any means mean less people affected?

I believe Boris and his advisors now prey like they have never done before that these 1.5 million will comply better. I hope I’m wrong, but I believe UK is gonna pay an even higher price than Italy and Spain.
		
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I think it's just northern Italy in lock down.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			We went to dog training today. David and myself and our two dogs, one other owner and her dog and the trainer. Big field, lots of space and very easy to social distance. So why oh why did the other owner kind of follow me around...too close for comfort?! If I stepped away, she stepped closer. Perhaps a positive of this in time will be people start to recognise personal space and keep out of it!
		
Click to expand...

Just say firmly  ‘2m Please!’


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## AmandaJR (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Carers will still access as best they can - but it seemed that family in the home or from without could also access. That does not seem to me like shielding as the government wants it to be. Did I misunderstand about family.  I get that essential carers need to continue to support but not clear about family.
		
Click to expand...

I was a bit unclear but think it meant carers only - which may of course be family.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2020)

I thought Spain had closed down non essential travel yet we have a BBC reporter showing empty motorways. Highly essential.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

BrianM said:



			It wasn’t aimed at you so wind your neck in.
		
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😂😂 hence the question? 🤡


----------



## Lilyhawk (Mar 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think it's just northern Italy in lock down.
		
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Fair enough. I meant where the measures have been put in place, and most of us know that it’s Northern Italy. If it spreads from there, I’m assuming they won’t be afraid to do a nation wide lock down.


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## chrisd (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - the briefings are excellent - for those of us watching and listening.  But many I fear do not.
		
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I'm pretty sure those who dont watch it do see the many social media posts but still choose to take the view that it wont affect them severely, so stuff the rest!


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - the briefings are excellent - for those of us watching and listening.  But many I fear do not.
		
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I agree. The same people who, in quizzes and tv shows etc, when politics comes up , say proudly, " oh I don't know anything about politics"", and wear it as a sort of badge of honour!
I trust it will be recognised when he invokes lock down with possibly police and army enforcement. As far as I am concerned no one will be entitled to criticise him for doing so. The man has  virtually pleaded every time for people to do the right thing.
He should take a break. Let someone else front the daily briefings soon. He's entitled to stay healthy.
Einstein was right in his quote.😀


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I agree - the briefings are excellent - for those of us watching and listening.  But many I fear do not.
		
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It’s on to early imo .
5pm most people are not home from work .
Should be 7pm gives most a chance to watch.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s on to early imo .
5pm most people are not home from work .
Should be 7pm gives most a chance to watch.
		
Click to expand...

But it's easy to watch it when you get home.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's easy to watch it when you get home.
		
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Or just watch Channel4 News at 7pm or at 8pm on +1 - or any time on BBC or Sky News channels.


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## Slime (Mar 22, 2020)

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on one aspect of the Coronavirus problems.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or just watch Channel4 News at 7pm or at 8pm on +1 - or any time on BBC or Sky News channels.
		
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Yes, you can watch on iplayer and get the highlights on BBC news site


----------



## Mudball (Mar 22, 2020)

For those panic buying toilet rolls... here is the math.. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=651785338967871


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## chellie (Mar 22, 2020)

Morons coming into our town today to visit the seaside.


----------



## User62651 (Mar 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			We went to dog training today. David and myself and our two dogs, one other owner and her dog and the trainer. Big field, lots of space and very easy to social distance. So why oh why did the other owner kind of follow me around...too close for comfort?! If I stepped away, she stepped closer. Perhaps a positive of this in time will be people start to recognise personal space and keep out of it!
		
Click to expand...

 Yep, the double cheek kiss 'mwah mwah' French greeting consigned to history, an upside at last.😁


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

Missus just had call from work. 
All Nando’s closing asap tonight. BiL says McDonalds considering the same. So that’s takeaways closed. Now just need to close all other public gatherings.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Lady driver with her hubby (both looking to be at least in their later 70s) in Windermere interviewed by Ch4 News about staying indoors - her response

‘If I start coughing then ok - but no - I’m fine’

does she not realise that if she starts coughing and she has caught it she could die?

Clearly not - both shocking and distressing in equal measure but where we are today.

And a prof from imperial college interviewed- gov must do lock down *now* - waiting a few more days will have terrible outcome.  Johnson should forget this apparent worry about making our life a bit difficult and unpleasant. 

And guess who was standing at the back of the briefing room during today’s briefing.  Yes.  Cummings. And I haven’t yet read the Sunday Times report.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s on to early imo .
5pm most people are not home from work .
Should be 7pm gives most a chance to watch.
		
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Most of the salient points are given out in each news bulletin, so half hourly or so on Sky on the BBC news channel. It's there on the news websites. The details are there but idiots simply close their eyes and ears


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

Today highlights just how big a change things are going to be for the coming months 

Wife being shielded for 12 weeks. 
Daughter won't get to see grandparents for 12 weeks
Everything we do closed bar the golf course 

I can litterally work and home that's about it 

Will try and get out once a week to the course even if it's just alone. Keep my sanity .. 

Will be a lot of work at the moment. 9 out of 34 of us out either long term sick (2) or isolating. Meaning coverage issues. Will be going in work. Wipe down the desk before I start. Wash hands constantly 

Come home. Wash hands

Detol the car handles and steering wheel

Shower when get in and change clothes 

I think doing all those and should be fine


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Missus just had call from work.
All Nando’s closing asap tonight. BiL says McDonalds considering the same. So that’s takeaways closed. Now just need to close all other public gatherings.
		
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Golf Club Stewards wife is manager at local MacDonalds, he’s just posted she’s come home and told him all MacDonalds closing indefinitely from tomorrow.

Not sure what that says about other places Dominoes, cafes etc that are offering take away/delivery services still.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Golf Club Stewards wife is manager at local MacDonalds, he’s just posted she’s come home and told him all MacDonalds closing indefinitely from tomorrow.

Not sure what that says about other places Dominoes, cafes etc that are offering take away/delivery services still.
		
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They may well follow suit too. 
i was amazed Nando’s closing. They’ve basically had only NHS staff in for the last 3 days as right near hospital. From what they were saying. It was their one little break, being able to not worry about what they’d need to do for food. Obviously they’ll sort something, but can’t help but feel its more example of the few ruining for the many.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			They may well follow suit too.
i was amazed Nando’s closing. They’ve basically had only NHS staff in for the last 3 days as right near hospital. From what they were saying. It was their one little break, being able to not worry about what they’d need to do for food. Obviously they’ll sort something, but can’t help but feel its more example of the few ruining for the many.
		
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I’m genuinely still confused at the risk from take aways, ie the packaging etc.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m genuinely still confused at the risk from take aways, ie the packaging etc.

Click to expand...

Nando's say they've done it on safety grounds due to mass congregations of customers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			So listening to the news whilst just driving back from Woodhall, it would seem that ‘many’ pubs in Scotland have refused to close!

I thought this was a government instruction, and if so, they should be forced to close and then be prosecuted and have their license removed.

If this is simply an anti Westminster, ‘I’m not being told to close by Boris syndrome’, then the crankee needs to do her job and clamp down on all of them and hit them hard, as it’s dangerous, selfish and is sending out all the wrong signals if they’re allowed to stay open!!
		
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I do not know where you are getting your information from but you have got that one seriously wrong.
Chucking an insult at the Scots First Minister as well does not make you look good.

The actual figure she quoted was …...a tiny minority. 
Under current law she cannot force these pubs to close. The police can only enforce force a 24 hour closing order so technically they could open every second day.
Councils will obviously not renew the licences of these idiot landlords.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Nando's say they've done it on safety grounds due to mass congregations of customers.
		
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All Nandos and MC Donald's etc should be collection only by Uber eats or something 

Drive through for everyone else


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## 2blue (Mar 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m genuinely still confused at the risk from take aways, ie the packaging etc.

Click to expand...

I agree..... could easily have insisted deliveries only & possibly helped self employed taxi drivers. Strange move.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 22, 2020)

I'm in a bit of a weird situation regarding work tomorrow. I only work on a Monday so any comms/decisions about the office have not filtered down to me. I've text the office manager and also emailed but no response. Text one of the staff who said they were working from home and likely the office will be closed tomorrow. I don't think I've a choice but to drive to the office and see what's happening. If the gates are locked I'll come home and if open I'll go into the offices to find out more...

Part of being the teeniest cog in the machine but pretty poor there's been no communication. That place has had 28 loyal years from me and most of those full time and hard graft.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			All Nandos and MC Donald's etc should be collection only by Uber eats or something

Drive through for everyone else
		
Click to expand...

Not practical for many nando's. Often in remote retail parks. Not densely populated areas. 

At least not round here. Think it so ly Maidstone that does delivery. 

Collection for the rest. 

Obv McDonald's drive thru is easiest way which makes their decision to close confusing.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Not practical for many nando's. Often in remote retail parks. Not densely populated areas. 

At least not round here. Think it so ly Maidstone that does delivery. 

Collection for the rest. 

Obv McDonald's drive thru is easiest way which makes their decision to close confusing.
		
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Haven't heard either of them closing anywhere other than here so far 

We got a few Nandos round here. The local ones would be fine for Uber eats 

Going to go down meat market on my nights this week get some steak in as we out. Apparently they got no chicken tho which isnt good


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## Jacko_G (Mar 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			So listening to the news whilst just driving back from Woodhall, it would seem that ‘many’ pubs in Scotland have refused to close!

I thought this was a government instruction, and if so, they should be forced to close and then be prosecuted and have their license removed.

If this is simply an anti Westminster, ‘I’m not being told to close by Boris syndrome’, then the crankee needs to do her job and clamp down on all of them and hit them hard, as it’s dangerous, selfish and is sending out all the wrong signals if they’re allowed to stay open!!
		
Click to expand...

Come on, I expect better from you. Look on Facebook at the interviews outside a pub in Manchester and I'm sure you'll find other cities too.

You'll also find that Scotland has now gone through the courts to have the legislation to force clubs to close and that has come into effect NOW. 

Maybe Westminster should have forced this through before asking those places to shut. It should have been mandatory not a plea which allowed some publicans to cash in up and down the length of Britain while they legally could.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Not practical for many nando's. Often in remote retail parks. Not densely populated areas.

At least not round here. Think it so ly Maidstone that does delivery.

Collection for the rest.

Obv McDonald's drive thru is easiest way which makes their decision to close confusing.
		
Click to expand...

But if the scientists/doctors etc are correct, people can carry this disease for up to 7 days without falling ill if at all, if they work for these take aways and the issue over packaging isn’t cleared up, surely they could be spreading the disease about, and I agree, how is that any different to shop workers, home delivery drivers etc.

I know you can’t cover every scenario, but there does seem to be a few holes in the information we are being told.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

McDonalds closing all restaurants.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Haven't heard either of them closing anywhere other than here so far

We got a few Nandos round here. The local ones would be fine for Uber eats

Going to go down meat market on my nights this week get some steak in as we out. Apparently they got no chicken tho which isnt good
		
Click to expand...

The nando's decision is a national one. They are all closing this evening.
Will be on social media once all staff informed.


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 22, 2020)

Being a taxi driver I am basically in the front line of getting the virus .I'm also over sixty with COPD so should I be sitting in my house on my own for the duration and not earn any money , like I can afford that (not). With no money coming in at least I will lose a lot of weight due to not affording to buy any food .that's if there is any on the shelves after the morons have ransacked the joint.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm in a bit of a weird situation regarding work tomorrow. I only work on a Monday so any comms/decisions about the office have not filtered down to me. I've text the office manager and also emailed but no response. Text one of the staff who said they were working from home and likely the office will be closed tomorrow. I don't think I've a choice but to drive to the office and see what's happening. If the gates are locked I'll come home and if open I'll go into the offices to find out more...

Part of being the teeniest cog in the machine but pretty poor there's been no communication. That place has had 28 loyal years from me and most of those full time and hard graft.
		
Click to expand...

Reminds me of a poem I read on the wall of a toilet in a place I once worked:
'if you work and do your best
You'll get the sack like all the rest 
Then on your tombstone neatly lacquered 
Not just dead but bloody knackered'


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 22, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Being a taxi driver I am basically in the front line of getting the virus .I'm also over sixty with COPD so should I be sitting in my house on my own for the duration and not earn any money , like I can afford that (not). With no money coming in at least I will lose a lot of weight due to not affording to buy any food .that's if there is any on the shelves after the morons have ransacked the joint.
		
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Feel for you buddy. Got to get some cash and put "food on the table" and again feel that hurt. I was in the same boat, in work at 6.30 each morning and shelves empty when I finished. HID has been great and running around the local supermarkets each morning looking for milk, bread etc not just for us but her elderly parents that are more or less housebound anyway. Stay safe, be careful and hope the measures being put in place to restrict the amount of stuff helps you


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## AmandaJR (Mar 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Reminds me of a poem I read on the wall of a toilet in a place I once worked:
'if you work and do your best
You'll get the sack like all the rest
Then on your tombstone neatly lacquered
Not just dead but bloody knackered' 

Click to expand...

Very true. The place has changed a lot in my time. From a family-owned business where you genuinely felt part of the bigger picture to what it is now...part of a bigger group where you really are just a number on the payroll but are regularly told it's all about the team and our colleagues.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Being a taxi driver I am basically in the front line of getting the virus .I'm also over sixty with COPD so should I be sitting in my house on my own for the duration and not earn any money , like I can afford that (not). With no money coming in at least I will lose a lot of weight due to not affording to buy any food .that's if there is any on the shelves after the morons have ransacked the joint.
		
Click to expand...

Are there any grants you can claim, have the new universal credit rules made it better for you to claim.  I think you're life is more important. Think it through carefully and look after yourself.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The nando's decision is a national one. They are all closing this evening.
Will be on social media once all staff informed.
		
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I suppose doesnt make much business sense to stay open 

Custoners can't come to eat, take aways will only make so much money 

People will be on more of a budget.    

MC Donald's I would be shocked about . So cheap .. keep shift workings going during this ..


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## upsidedown (Mar 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Very true. The place has changed a lot in my time. From a family-owned business where you genuinely felt part of the bigger picture to what it is now...part of a bigger group where you really are just a number on the payroll but are regularly told it's all about the team and our colleagues.
		
Click to expand...

Very affable Irish guy joined our club 3 years ago who used to work for the same company and played at Wellingborough too


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

7pm tomorrow confirmed for McDonalds closure.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			7pm tomorrow confirmed for McDonalds closure.
		
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Post count?


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Post count?
		
Click to expand...

Why? Because I've backed up an earlier comment relaying info i have from someone.

Or are you talking about yourself and your original comment that mcdonalds will close after I'd already stated it? 

I presume you saw it online? But as you'd not referenced any source it was simply further speculation.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/22/mcdonalds-restaurants-uk-close-tomorrow-12440175/


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Why? Because I've backed up an earlier comment relaying info i have from someone.

Or are you talking about yourself and your original comment that mcdonalds will close after I'd already stated it? 

Click to expand...

And another $$😉🤣


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			And another $$😉🤣
		
Click to expand...

Have one more...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			7pm tomorrow confirmed for McDonalds closure.
		
Click to expand...

Hope the gov is providing food for the NHS staff during this 

How many times Is a MC Donald's run the only way for them to get food during a crisis? Especially right now with lack of food in shops


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Have one more...






Click to expand...

😂 $


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Hope the gov is providing food for the NHS staff during this

How many times Is a MC Donald's run the only way for them to get food during a crisis? Especially right now with lack of food in shops
		
Click to expand...

There is a huge amount of food in shops , especially ready to eat stuff.


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2020)




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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			There is a huge amount of food in shops , especially ready to eat stuff.
		
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Lots of NHS workers struggling to get food right now .. considering they are working 60 plus hour weeks and the shops are closed when they get home etc. Then people not respecting the NHS hours


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 22, 2020)

Alan Sugar asked on Twitter "Is this a wind up"........


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## Imurg (Mar 22, 2020)

NHS workers are, according to the Mrs WhatsApp work group, being mugged in London for their NHS passes.
All being advised to take them off as they leave work..
Anarchy is a footstep away.


----------



## Dando (Mar 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			So listening to the news whilst just driving back from Woodhall, it would seem that ‘many’ pubs in Scotland have refused to close!

I thought this was a government instruction, and if so, they should be forced to close and then be prosecuted and have their license removed.

If this is simply an anti Westminster, ‘I’m not being told to close by Boris syndrome’, then the crankee needs to do her job and clamp down on all of them and hit them hard, as it’s dangerous, selfish and is sending out all the wrong signals if they’re allowed to stay open!!
		
Click to expand...

You should by now that the only politicians you can call names and get away with it are the tories and Donald trump.
Any mention of the former kids tv show presenter sets the pant wetters off and they whine like spoiled brats to the mods


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## Lincoln Quaker (Mar 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			There is a huge amount of food in shops , especially ready to eat stuff.
		
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Not in my Tesco yesterday. It was nearly empty of everything. 

Complete joke.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Mar 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			NHS workers are, according to the Mrs WhatsApp work group, being mugged in London for their NHS passes.
All being advised to take them off as they leave work..
Anarchy is a footstep away.
		
Click to expand...

That’s a disgrace 

I did hear that some NHS workers got abuse as they got special shopping time. 

Wtf is this country coming to.


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## User20204 (Mar 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Anarchy is a footstep away.
		
Click to expand...


I predicted social disorder a couple weeks back.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			That’s a disgrace

I did hear that some NHS workers got abuse as they got special shopping time.

Wtf is this country coming to.
		
Click to expand...

Has it actually happened?


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## Papas1982 (Mar 22, 2020)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Not in my Tesco yesterday. It was nearly empty of everything.

Complete joke.
		
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This weekend I’ve been on nights. The 3 local petrol stations seem to get their deliveries approx 3am. So have been raiding them. May pay 20% more, but have got enough essentials to mean I wont need to face a supermarket.
Even they were empty by 8am when the day boys got in though.


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## Twire (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas and Robinthehood, pack it in.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			This weekend I’ve been on nights. The 3 local petrol stations seem to get their deliveries approx 3am. So have been raiding them. May pay 20% more, but have got enough essentials to mean I wont need to face a supermarket.
Even they were empty by 8am when the day boys got in though. 

Click to expand...

Shops have seemed better today. The max 2 of anything is helping. I went in asda and Waitrose today and both had lots of stock. Even rice and pasta!


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## Lincoln Quaker (Mar 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Has it actually happened?
		
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According to my missus it was her work colleague so I am fairly certain it did. 
She has no reason to BS


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I predicted social disorder a couple weeks back.
		
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I think you're being a little hysterical.


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			According to my missus it was her work colleague so I am fairly certain it did.
She has no reason to BS
		
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Sort of thing that would make headlines you'd think .


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## chellie (Mar 22, 2020)

Well, all this weeks tee times are still rammed at ours.


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## USER1999 (Mar 22, 2020)

I have been down the flat. Went for a 15m walk on Studland. Every one was behaving, it wasn't mobbed, it was just beautiful. And windy. Social distance, nothing open, just took some sandwiches and a flask, and had a lovely walk.

Oh, and someones dog was chasing a sheep, that got stuck half in a bramble bush, half in a water trough. Idiot here had to rescue it, and get covered head to foot in manky water and bramble scratches. Lovely. Sheep was ok though, so all ends well. They are not the brightest.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			NHS workers are, according to the Mrs WhatsApp work group, being mugged in London for their NHS passes.
All being advised to take them off as they leave work..
Anarchy is a footstep away.
		
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Problem with this situations is the people who sadly are taken from us are never the ones who are a complete drain and won't be missed 

Always the good ones


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## Jacko_G (Mar 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			NHS workers are, according to the Mrs WhatsApp work group, being mugged in London for their NHS passes.
All being advised to take them off as they leave work..
Anarchy is a footstep away.
		
Click to expand...

I call bollocks


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## Jacko_G (Mar 22, 2020)

chellie said:



			Well, all this weeks tee times are still rammed at ours.
		
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Pathetic irresponsible selfish individuals.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 22, 2020)

Key front line workers should be registered with a supermarket of their choice , and have priority home deliveries.  Sorted


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 22, 2020)

Posties to become more reactive, delivering prescriptions, food parcels etc,
Good move by Royal Mail.
Our nearest town set up a resilience group in the Autumn, bit like an urban mountain rescue team, dealing with all sorts of useful stuff.
They are now ramping up big time with many new volunteers,


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## User20204 (Mar 22, 2020)

I know a pts driver who got priority in Tescos this morning, she is NOT a frontline worker. My partner is a renal nurse she has told me for years there are  dozens upon dozens of nurses in the NHS that are lazy bast!ds, quite a few in her unit alone, so lets not just shout from the rooftops for them all.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I have been down the flat. Went for a 15m walk on Studland. Every one was behaving, it wasn't mobbed, it was just beautiful. And windy. Social distance, nothing open, just took some sandwiches and a flask, and had a lovely walk.

Oh, and someones dog was chasing a sheep, that got stuck half in a bramble bush, half in a water trough. Idiot here had to rescue it, and get covered head to foot in manky water and bramble scratches. Lovely. Sheep was ok though, so all ends well. They are not the brightest.
		
Click to expand...

You sheep worrying MTM 😳🤣🤣👍


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## robinthehood (Mar 22, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Pathetic irresponsible selfish individuals.
		
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Why? They may all  be practicing good social distancing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I know a pts driver who got priority in Tescos this morning, she is NOT a frontline worker. My partner is a renal nurse she has told me for years there are  dozens upon dozens of nurses in the NHS that are lazy bast!ds, quite a few in her unit alone, so lets not just shout from the rooftops for them all.
		
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There’s good and bad in every profession in every walk of life.

Some people are still stepping up and doing the job though and when push comes to shove Nurses are there when you need them, so yes, right now let’s shout from every rooftop because we need every one of them!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

On further reflection and seeing more scenes of crowds everywhere I fear the PM is failing badly and dangerously - quite possibly catastrophic by not being angry enough - not demanding that we do not go out - not conveying how deadly serious this is. 

Seems to me he still wants to be liked.  His message earlier today was far too ‘there there I know this is miserable what I am asking you to do and I really don’t want to spoil your pleasure, but you really must...‘ This isn’t good enough - the behaviour we have seen all over the country is insane and hellish dangerous.

The more I have seen the angrier I have got.  When he was wittering on about not everyone having a garden to get fresh air and exercise and how important that is - many many more people in continental Europe live in flats and THEY are getting locked down.  GET A GRIP JOHNSON!


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## User20204 (Mar 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			There’s good and bad in every profession in every walk of life.

Some people are still stepping up and doing the job though and when push comes to shove Nurses are there when you need them, so yes, right now let’s shout from every rooftop because we need every one of them!
		
Click to expand...

I'm obviously coming from a biased perspective as I've had to listen to her going on about said lazy b'stards but yes you are absolutely correct. She works 3 days a week due to her shift pattern, she is about to go up to 5 days minimum to do what she can to assist, so to her and her likes, I raise a glass.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On further reflection and seeing more scenes of crowds everywhere I fear the PM is failing badly and dangerously - quite possibly catastrophic by not being angry enough - not demanding that we do not go out - not conveying how deadly serious this is.

Seems to me he still wants to be liked.  His message earlier today was far too ‘there there I know this is miserable what I am asking you to do and I really don’t want to spoil your pleasure, but you really must...‘ This isn’t good enough - the behaviour we have seen all over the country is insane and hellish dangerous.

The more I have seen the angrier I have got.  When he was wittering on about not everyone having a garden to get fresh air and exercise and how important that is - many many more people in continental Europe live in flats and THEY are getting locked down.  GET A GRIP JOHNSON!
		
Click to expand...

Stop trying to score political points, it's pathetic.  The people who need to get a grip are the morons ignoring the perfectly clear advice.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			There’s good and bad in every profession in every walk of life.

Some people are still stepping up and doing the job though and when push comes to shove Nurses are there when you need them, so yes, right now let’s shout from every rooftop because we need every one of them!
		
Click to expand...

And even a  so called " bad un" is better than none 👍


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On further reflection and seeing more scenes of crowds everywhere I fear the PM is failing badly and dangerously - quite possibly catastrophic by not being angry enough - not demanding that we do not go out - not conveying how deadly serious this is.

Seems to me he still wants to be liked.  His message earlier today was far too ‘there there I know this is miserable what I am asking you to do and I really don’t want to spoil your pleasure, but you really must...‘ This isn’t good enough - the behaviour we have seen all over the country is insane and hellish dangerous.

The more I have seen the angrier I have got.  When he was wittering on about not everyone having a garden to get fresh air and exercise and how important that is - many many more people in continental Europe live in flats and THEY are getting locked down.  GET A GRIP JOHNSON!
		
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I agree with your view of the publics behaviour but
You are slowly turning your posts into " let's slam Johnson"
He knows when he takes out the stick to replace the pleas, then there will be a lot of mayhem. The police won't cope and the army will be on the streets.
When it comes it will be the right thing to do, because as we know the public as a whole are not responding as they should.
For everyone like you who applauds the heavy measure , there will be one who condemns him.
It is a heavy decision to make. Once made ,there's no going back for a long while.
I think he will within a couple of days., if things don't improve.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Stop trying to score political points, it's pathetic.  The people who need to get a grip are the morons ignoring the perfectly clear advice.
		
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It’s not political.  If you think my post is political you actually don’t get it.  Many of the public clearly have to be forced to do what is required of us ONLY the PM can make that happen. 

We have some nice days weather coming after a rubbish winter and early spring and many people will be at home now expecting 80% pay - many will be out enjoying themselves - ENJOYING themselves - because they are not being FORCED to stay indoors.

Even small number of days delay will cause many hundreds of lives to be lost unnecessarily - there can bo no further delay.  Our PM has the power to make this happen He does not have to rely on the goodwill and common sense of the public.  He MUST use that power without any further delay.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm obviously coming from a biased perspective as I've had to listen to her going on about said lazy b'stards but yes you are absolutely correct. She works 3 days a week due to her shift pattern, she is about to go up to 5 days minimum to do what she can to assist, so to her and her likes, I raise a glass.
		
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Totally get where you are coming from HH1 heard it in bucket loads from Missis T..esp the ones that end up being gaffers and never liked getting poo on there hands.
But at the end of the day the laziness of a minority should not overlook the massive burden these nurses, doctors, healthcare workers, cleaners, returning retired NHS workers and every other poor sod that will be looking after our loved ones over the next few months. Inc Missis HH1. 
Big up respect from Tash


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s not political.  If you think my post is political you actually don’t get it.
		
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If you don't think your post is political then it is you that doesn't get it.  Goodnight.


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## Fish (Mar 22, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Come on, I expect better from you. Look on Facebook at the interviews outside a pub in Manchester and I'm sure you'll find other cities too.

You'll also find that Scotland has now gone through the courts to have the legislation to force clubs to close and that has come into effect NOW.

Maybe Westminster should have forced this through before asking those places to shut. It should have been mandatory not a plea which allowed some publicans to cash in up and down the length of Britain while they legally could.
		
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I wasn’t on social media or looking for anything, as my post clearly states, on Absolute Radio news, as I was driving home, it stated ‘many pubs’ in Scotland refused to close. 

I’ve simply reported what I heard, I couldn’t post it earlier or look for any similar news stories to compare as I was driving and that would have been illegal, I wouldn’t want to ruin my perfect character record now, would I 🤔😏


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## User20204 (Mar 22, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Totally get where you are coming from HH1 heard it in bucket loads from Missis T..esp the ones that end up being gaffers and never liked getting poo on there hands.
		
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That's quite uncanny.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			That's quite uncanny.
		
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It's a small world, you just would not wanna hover it though 👍


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 22, 2020)

I have put my PC to work Folding @ Home to work on the virus, did a Covid work unit earlier today!

Seems a good idea to have it folding in the background when the solar panels have full sun and electricity is pretty much free. With the good weather we are having its something I can do for a good few days yet!

Anyone else doing it?


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## User20204 (Mar 22, 2020)

Bergamo Mayor had two daughters studying in England, brought them back home as he thought they'd be safer there than in England, make of that what you will.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Bergamo Mayor had two daughters studying in England, brought them back home as he thought they'd be safer there than in England, make of that what you will.
		
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BS


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s not political.  If you think my post is political you actually don’t get it.  Many of the public clearly have to be forced to do what is required of us ONLY the PM can make that happen.

We have some nice days weather coming after a rubbish winter and early spring and many people will be at home now expecting 80% pay - many will be out enjoying themselves - ENJOYING themselves - because they are not being FORCED to stay indoors.

Even small number of days delay will cause many hundreds of lives to be lost unnecessarily - there can bo no further delay.  Our PM has the power to make this happen He does not have to rely on the goodwill and common sense of the public.  He MUST use that power without any further delay.
		
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It was only a matter of time before you reverted to norm


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2020)

The USA has offered to help IRAN. Iran has turned down the offer as Iran has information from an unnamed source that the Covid virus is American made and is targeted to Iranian geneology.
 Sweet mother these people are running countries.
Was on Fox news half an hour ago


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2020)

Much of the UK (& this forum) clearly still do not get it

Pack it in with all these 'I just popped to xyz, I went to abc today, we were at 123 this morning..... 

None of these are essential journeys guys! 

Ask Hobbit, ask the Italian Outcast if you should still be doing these things?

Best of luck, you're gonna need it


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## Jacko_G (Mar 23, 2020)

Slab said:



			Much of the UK (& this forum) clearly still do not get it

Pack it in with all these 'I just popped to xyz, I went to abc today, we were at 123 this morning.....

None of these are essential journeys guys!

Ask Hobbit, ask the Italian Outcast if you should still be doing these things?

Best of luck, you're gonna need it
		
Click to expand...

Yip and people on here still think that it's acceptable to golf.

Utter madness. ( Other views are welcome)


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Yip and people on here still think that it's acceptable to golf.

Utter madness. ( Other views are welcome)
		
Click to expand...

I wish I could categorically say I wouldnt behave differently if there wasn't a mandatory lockdown here, I'm just not sure

But with a legal instruction in place to not go to work or even go outside without a permit, a curfew kicking in tonight and alphabatised days /time food shopping with ID cards etc. The other unessential journeys just don't come up

24 cases 
2 deaths


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2020)

Slab said:



			Much of the UK (& this forum) clearly still do not get it

Pack it in with all these 'I just popped to xyz, I went to abc today, we were at 123 this morning..... 

None of these are essential journeys guys! 

Ask Hobbit, ask the Italian Outcast if you should still be doing these things?

Best of luck, you're gonna need it
		
Click to expand...

Slab, thankyou very much for that post, ave spoke to IO, ave spoke to friends In Italy and quite frankly there shit scared. But at the same time have a mentality towards this us Brits just do not have ( at the moment).
Ave asked questions on here that I honestly dont know the answers to and am prejudiced.
And now it's got political. People post on here and some responses are simply "Bullshit". -Thats all that is written. 
The same people that have been emptying shelves are the same people that buggered off to the seaside for the day. They just dont get it. 
Always nice to see an outside view of how folk view us Holier than thou Brits.
Stay safe Slab.
Oh ah, me and missis T have had a little romantic walk tonight, seen a couple of racoons..Anyway she said " I fancy going back to Mauritius" 😳
Flippin eck can we finish this one.
Well.written Slab.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Yip and people on here still think that it's acceptable to golf.

Utter madness. ( Other views are welcome)
		
Click to expand...

I think re the golf Jacko we are between a rock and a hard place.
Golf England says it is ok to golf. But they have placed in restrictions..which I understand as they have expained it. But to some folk well they are the shelf emptying types and those that go to the seaside for the day. My course is open at home with a Covid case in the town next door. But on Thursday I was going to a course in mexico which had 250 cases, non of which are round here, but they shut tomorrow.
Golf will stop in this country when Boris thinks folk have proper extracted the urine. At which point folk will still point  the finger at everyone else.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2020)

BBC News - Coronavirus: MPs to debate emergency legislation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51999864

This could stop.folk.going to the seaside.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Yip and people on here still think that it's acceptable to golf.

Utter madness. ( Other views are welcome)
		
Click to expand...

My playing partners walk down the fairways on lush short grass, I keep to the social distancing guidelines by experiencing the wild natural elements of a golf course, playing my balls from areas where the snakes & lizards reside, I get much more exercise and see far more than they do😜

😏


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## User20204 (Mar 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			BS
		
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I didn't expect anyone to believe me, so why not watch him say it himself.  About 1.50 in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It was only a matter of time before you reverted to norm
		
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good god man don’t you get it. My comment is nothing to do with the politics of Johnson. This about the one man who can make the decisions that might save thousands of lives...including our own - he must make them when the stupidity and selfishness of tens of thousands is quite eveident.


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## 2blue (Mar 23, 2020)

Glad I didn't renew my country membership at Seaton as an each way 75 mile trip would be very difficult to justify as an essential journey. 🤔🤔
Keep safe everyone & keep considering what is ESSENTIAL.


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## 2blue (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			good god man don’t you get it. My comment is nothing to do with the politics of Johnson. This about the one man who can make the decisions that might save thousands of lives...including our own - he must make them when the stupidity and selfishness of tens of thousands is quite eveident.
		
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Oh come on.....  Dinna Doubt a Dibber .....  hes just post counting.😣


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2020)

2blue said:



			Glad I didn't renew my country membership at Seaton as an each way 75 mile trip would be very difficult to justify as an essential journey. 🤔🤔
Keep safe everyone & keep considering what is ESSENTIAL.
		
Click to expand...

I get that Dave, but I still have to go to work and interact with possibly hundreds of people through the week putting myself and others at risk. 
I'm on holiday today, the golf course is open and a mile from my house, the place is empty so I'm going up there for a game. My logic says it's safer playing golf than going to work


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I get that Dave, but I still have to go to work and interact with possibly hundreds of people through the week putting myself and others at risk.
I'm on holiday today, the golf course is open and a mile from my house, the place is empty so I'm going up there for a game. My logic says it's safer playing golf than going to work 

Click to expand...

That's my logic too. 

I'm deemed a key worker and interact with at least 50 Europeans a day. I'd imagine a golf course with nobody withing 50 yards will be a safer place.


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## 2blue (Mar 23, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I get that Dave, but I still have to go to work and interact with possibly hundreds of people through the week putting myself and others at risk. 
I'm on holiday today, the golf course is open and a mile from my house, the place is empty so I'm going up there for a game. My logic says it's safer playing golf than going to work 

Click to expand...

I'd consider just a few miles, low risk. I'm doing 5 myself today. Hobbit has to do 1/4 mile to his bins. Out of town trips are a definite no, no. Bad as the Snowdon nutters.


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2020)

2blue said:



			I'd consider just a few miles, low risk. I'm doing 5 myself today. Hobbit has to do 1/4 mile to his bins. Out of town trips are a definite no, no. Bad as the Snowdon nutters.
		
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1/4 mile to his bins? Does he live in a castle?


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			1/4 mile to his bins? Does he live in a castle? 

Click to expand...

Chateaux Hobbiton... an upmarket castle. 

We don't get doorstep collections over here. Communal bins.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			That's my logic too.

I'm deemed a key worker and interact with at least 50 Europeans a day. I'd imagine a golf course with nobody withing 50 yards will be a safer place.
		
Click to expand...

Especially where you hit it 😳


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## chellie (Mar 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Pathetic irresponsible selfish individuals.
		
Click to expand...

We have cancelled all our bookings. Currently looks as if the mens Captains rollup is still on tomorrow


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

We were supposed to go on holiday to Cornwall with another family in a nice house in a couple of weeks, fully paid it, not cheap etc etc.  We've stated that we do not want to go.  The local MP, council and tourist board have stated they do not want visitors to come.  However the company we booked through are being real douche bags as their web site says the only way people can even postpone a paid holiday in one of their houses is if the homeowner agrees. And at the same time the company is still advertising rentals for Easter on social media, but it is receiving loads of abuse from locals who point out that Cornwall has very little infrastructure to support the locals at a time like this, and really does not want lots of tourists clearing the supermarket shelves/taking up delivery slots/hospital beds etc etc.

Then found out last night that one of the other family is a teacher and they have to work that week now anyway, so hopefully we can claim on insurance now if the booking agents keep being scum bags.

Suspect that the fact that holiday companies are still putting profits before people and also the fact that some people are selfish tosspots who will still want to overwhelm areas like Cornwall with visitors, the government will have to step in soon to prevent mass movement of people over Easter.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Slab, thankyou very much for that post, ave spoke to IO, ave spoke to friends In Italy and quite frankly there shit scared. But at the same time have a mentality towards this us Brits just do not have ( at the moment).
Ave asked questions on here that I honestly dont know the answers to and am prejudiced.
And now it's got political. People post on here and some responses are simply "Bullshit". -Thats all that is written.
The same people that have been emptying shelves are the same people that buggered off to the seaside for the day. They just dont get it.
Always nice to see an outside view of how folk view us Holier than thou Brits.
Stay safe Slab.
Oh ah, me and missis T have had a little romantic walk tonight, seen a couple of racoons..Anyway she said " I fancy going back to Mauritius" 😳
Flippin eck can we finish this one.
Well.written Slab.
		
Click to expand...

And when did you fly out to Mexico? You knew before you flew what was going on globally. You buggered off to Mexico even though you knew what your friends in Italy were going through, and how it was travelling relentlessly around the world.

Never mind the "they just don't get it," neither do you.


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			good god man don’t you get it. My comment is nothing to do with the politics of Johnson. This about the one man who can make the decisions that might save thousands of lives...including our own - he must make them when the stupidity and selfishness of tens of thousands is quite eveident.
		
Click to expand...

One man Making the decisions ? 

Realy ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And when did you fly out to Mexico? You knew before you flew what was going on globally. You buggered off to Mexico even though you knew what your friends in Italy were going through, and how it was travelling relentlessly around the world.

Never mind the "they just don't get it," neither do you.
		
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Post of the year so far!! Not to worry though, he saw a couple of racoons on his necessary walk.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			good god man don’t you get it. My comment is nothing to do with the politics of Johnson. This about the one man who can make the decisions that might save thousands of lives...including our own - he must make them when the stupidity and selfishness of tens of thousands is quite eveident.
		
Click to expand...

Its a rock and a hard place Hugh. On the one hand you could say he's treated the people like adults, with respect, and perhaps foolishly hoped they'd be intelligent about it. And then there's the legal side. Lockdown requires an emergency bill... he doesn't have the authority to impose a lockdown without it going through Parliament.

I believe he's been too slow and too accommodating of the people. The weekend was an appalling example of how the masses just can't take in the shocking enormity of it all.

A typical price for an ICU ventilator is around £30k, less if there's a bulk purchase. The Scottish NHS is looking to buy £6.5m worth of ventilators. One of the London teaching hospitals has 50 ICU vents. They've just put an order in for 300. That's been replicated around the UK, and around the world. No one orders that sort of quantity blindly. They know what's coming.

I watched a piece on Sky News a few days back of a non-medical company that just about developed a basic ventilator, and will be looking to go into production this week. I wouldn't vent a frog on it! It wasn't even as sophisticated as the gas driven bellows-style vents that were being decommissioned 20 years ago. It was bloody frightening!


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## Crazyface (Mar 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Yip and people on here still think that it's acceptable to golf.

Utter madness. ( Other views are welcome)
		
Click to expand...

Why is it not acceptable? We stand away from each other. On the tee. Are miles apart down the fairway (if at all on the damn thing). Meet up at the green, but keep a safe distance. What's wrong with that?


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Slab, thankyou very much for that post, ave spoke to IO, ave spoke to friends In Italy and quite frankly there shit scared. But at the same time have a mentality towards this us Brits just do not have ( at the moment).
Ave asked questions on here that I honestly dont know the answers to and am prejudiced.
And now it's got political. People post on here and some responses are simply "Bullshit". -Thats all that is written.
The same people that have been emptying shelves are the same people *that buggered off to the seaside for the day*. They just dont get it.
Always nice to see an outside view of how folk view us Holier than thou Brits.
Stay safe Slab.
Oh ah, me and missis T have had a little romantic walk tonight, seen a couple of racoons..Anyway she said " I fancy going back to Mauritius" 😳
Flippin eck can we finish this one.
Well.written Slab.
		
Click to expand...

Just that little bit in bold, you of all people moaning about others buggering off to the coast, yet depsite all the warnings and being fully aware of what's going on around the world from your own talks with friends in foreign lands you still chose to "bugger off to Mexico".  

Maybe have a wee think about that when you mention holier than thou Brits or slate others for their actions. 🙄


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why is it not acceptable? We stand away from each other. On the tee. Are miles apart down the fairway (if at all on the damn thing). Meet up at the green, but keep a safe distance. What's wrong with that?
		
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Is it a necessary essential journey... Nope its not.


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## Crazyface (Mar 23, 2020)

What I don't get is we are told to keep away from each other, but get your bums to work!!!!! If we shut down everything NOW we could stop the spread before it becomes overwhelming. The only things that should be open are key workers. Everyone else should be in lock down. You can't go to the pub or enjoy yourself, but people are expected to go to work???? Not just key workers others are still going. It's just stupid.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Is it a necessary essential journey... Nope its not.
		
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It could be from a mental and physical health perspective. 
Certainly safer than mixing with the hoards in supermarkets.


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## Crazyface (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Is it a necessary essential journey... Nope its not.
		
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Ok. But how will I pass any bugs on. if I had any. to anyone whilst sat in my car with the windows up?


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## Crazyface (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It could be from a mental and physical health perspective.
Certainly safer than mixing with the hoards in supermarkets.
		
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I'm dreading my next visit to Tesco's and having to tell the person behing me in the queue to step away.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Madrid's new hospital. Finished yesterday and already taking patients. New cases in Spain yesterday, circa 3,300. The previous day it was almost 4k. The lockdown is either working or the medical staff are too busy to diagnose new patients.


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## Crazyface (Mar 23, 2020)

Great weekend in the garden!!!! Are cat owners keeping their animals indoors?


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It could be from a mental and physical health perspective.
Certainly safer than mixing with the hoards in supermarkets.
		
Click to expand...




Crazyface said:



			Ok. But how will I pass any bugs on. if I had any. to anyone whilst sat in my car with the windows up?
		
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Don't disagree that it helps physically or mentally however going out the front door for a walk with social distancing does the same and removes the journey from the equation. Potential to have an accident or breakdown could divert the emergency services resource from where they're needed.


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## Kellfire (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And when did you fly out to Mexico? You knew before you flew what was going on globally. You buggered off to Mexico even though you knew what your friends in Italy were going through, and how it was travelling relentlessly around the world.

Never mind the "they just don't get it," neither do you.
		
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Aye me good man but don’t thee worry as I sed to my Mexican pals last yeer that I saw all this coming and there wouldn’t be a problem as I n my missis tash said we didnt get this done that their mine


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## pendodave (Mar 23, 2020)

When will people "get" climate change and modify their behaviour?...


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2020)

https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1241788968930344964




			e.g. this question (from Tuesday) on the proportion of people who were “still going out as normal":

Women 65+: 30%
Women 50-64: 43%
Women 25-49: 35%
Women 18-24: 40%
Men 65+: 38%
Men 50-64: 51%
Men 25-49: 47%
Men 18-24: 52%
		
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Cant say it surprises me, only have to look on the forum


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Is it a necessary essential journey... Nope its not.
		
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How far do we go with that argument?
Going for a run? Taking your dog for a walk? Shopping today instead of tomorrow? It’s not a straightforward black and white answer.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How far do we go with that argument?
Going for a run? Taking your dog for a walk? Shopping today instead of tomorrow? It’s not a straightforward black and white answer.
		
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They all seem pretty essential to me.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How far do we go with that argument?
Going for a run? Taking your dog for a walk? Shopping today instead of tomorrow? It’s not a straightforward black and white answer.
		
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Actually it can be Paul, golf is not an essential reason to travel. Going for a run can be done without any social interaction or requirement to drive anywhere. Taking the dog for a walk is exactly the same ni need to drive and can be done with adequate social distancing.  Going shopping is an essential journey as people have to eat, however they need to be sensible in sticking to social distancing guidelines and supermarkets need help manage this..  Absolutely it can be as black and white as that, golf is not essential its just golfers being selfish that they don't want to stop playing so make a trip thay isn't essential to get there.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Actually it can be Paul, golf is not an essential reason to travel. Going for a run can be done without any social interaction or requirement to drive anywhere. Taking the dog for a walk is exactly the same ni need to drive and can be done with adequate social distancing.  Going shopping is an essential journey as people have to eat, however they need to be sensible in sticking to social distancing guidelines and supermarkets need help manage this..  Absolutely it can be as black and white as that, golf is not essential its just golfers being selfish that they don't want to stop playing so make a trip thay isn't essential to get there.
		
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No risk of tripping over on a run and needing the emergency services then? I can walk to my Golf Course it’s that close.
Fitness/age means some peoples only exercise is Golf, what’s the difference in walking in isolation and playing in isolation?
Food, obviously we need to shop, but timing is everything.

As for pets? Best I don’t go there.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

Spread bet on when Boris will introduce more stringent measures mirroring those in Italy/Spain, especially with Easter coming up?  

Spread is Tuesday to Wednesday this week.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Spread bet on when Boris will introduce more stringent measures mirroring those in Italy/Spain, especially with Easter coming up? 

Spread is Tuesday to Wednesday this week.
		
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Yeah soon. Laws going through this week.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No risk of tripping over on a run and needing the emergency services then? I can walk to my Golf Course it’s that close.
Fitness/age means some peoples only exercise is Golf, what’s the difference in walking in isolation and playing in isolation?
Food, obviously we need to shop, but timing is everything.

As for pets? Best I don’t go there.

Click to expand...

Much likely less requirement for emergency services for tripping over than crashing the car. Good that you can walk to the course the majority of people won't have that luxury. Difference between going for a walk and golf is the requirement for most to drive there, it really is a non essential journey. 

I don't have any pets other than my kids 😂 so no issue there.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			As for pets? Best I don’t go there.

Click to expand...

Just looking on YouTube for "how many ways to skin a cat" instruction videos........


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2020)

I just had a thought.  are nhs staff still paying for parking Durring this crisis.  I hope to god the answer is no


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			I just had a thought.  are nhs staff still paying for parking Durring this crisis.  I hope to god the answer is no
		
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Certainly at Stoke Mandeville  most of the staff buy a yearly permit and the money is deducted from their salary
I'll try and find out if anything going on but I do know the boss of SMH is promising free meals and drinks to workers


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## Dan2501 (Mar 23, 2020)

Being in the "at risk" group due to being on immunosuppressants I'm expecting a letter from the NHS this week which will officially start my 12 weeks of isolation making me unable to leave the house. Party times.


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## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			The USA has offered to help IRAN. Iran has turned down the offer as Iran has information from an unnamed source that the Covid virus is American made and is targeted to Iranian geneology.
Sweet mother these people are running countries.
Was on Fox news half an hour ago
		
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Fox News.  The mouthpiece of the Republican party.  Not a news channel I would trust.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why is it not acceptable? We stand away from each other. On the tee. Are miles apart down the fairway (if at all on the damn thing). Meet up at the green, but keep a safe distance. What's wrong with that?
		
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What's a safe distance? Is it the 2 metres Boris spoke of? If you're playing in a 5 miles an hour breeze, and you'll barely feel 5 miles and hour, and your playing partner coughs that 2 metres needs to be a smidge under 4 metres(15 feet), and 23 feet at 10 miles an hour. But hey, even though Boris, backed by experts, has advised against it you know best.

And that applies to everyone that smugly says "we kept our social distancing." For god's sake think!


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why is it not acceptable? We stand away from each other. On the tee. Are miles apart down the fairway (if at all on the damn thing). Meet up at the green, but keep a safe distance. What's wrong with that?
		
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Do you walk to the club or drive?
If you walk fine if not an RTA can use to many Emergency staff.
But the golf I have no problem with!


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Dan2501 said:



			Being in the "at risk" group due to being on immunosuppressants I'm expecting a letter from the NHS this week which will officially start my 12 weeks of isolation making me unable to leave the house. Party times.
		
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Hid is dreading getting one.
My son and Dil are nhs staff and we have the grandkids so if she gets a letter that’s the grandkids off limits for another 90 days .
She is on imunodepressive drugs for Rumatoid .
Stay safe everyone.

Good news if we all have to stay home is we have all the wisdom on here to look forward to.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Much likely less requirement for emergency services for tripping over than crashing the car. Good that you can walk to the course the majority of people won't have that luxury. Difference between going for a walk and golf is the requirement for most to drive there, it really is a non essential journey.

I don't have any pets other than my kids 😂 so no issue there.
		
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If this weekend is anything to go by, there’s a lot of people suddenly taking up jogging/running who are far more of a risk to the NHS. 
But nobody actually needs to go for a run, I’m sure with your knowledge/experience you can keep someone fit and keep them indoors.

So we agree then, not really as simple as black or white.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If this weekend is anything to go by, there’s a lot of people suddenly taking up jogging/running who are far more of a risk to the NHS.
But nobody actually needs to go for a run, I’m sure with your knowledge/experience you can keep someone fit and keep them indoors.

So we agree then, not really as simple as black or white.

Click to expand...

No mate we don't agree 😉
It really is black and white.

Essential journeys
Food
Hospital
Work where required..

Non essential everything else including golf. Running in isolation is different to  dozens of cars going to the golf club and filling the car park. Nobody needs to run but its far less impact on a system where travel is required. I certainly can keep people fit in the comfort on their own homes but I can't stop people thinking it's ok to drive miles to a golf course because they to stubborn to miss out.


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## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2020)

I've been agonising over the golf question for a while now.  The reality is I probably won't be golfing as I have two people in house who are in the "at risk" category.  We have been self-isolating now for about a week as my other half is paranoid about getting bugs from anywhere.  Because I've had a cold we've been sleeping in separate rooms and try to distance ourselves as much as possible in the house.  Add in to that we have to look after the father-in-law who lives with us and it gets really straining.  Just walking out into fresh air feels good.  I don't even go to the shop to get his daily papers to reduce the risk.

We can't get home deliveries from anyone, all booked or not doing.  So I've booked a click and collect for this Thursday from Morrisons, the only ones we could get a slot with.  The nearest one that does it is 20 miles away.  We spent a long time going through our list last night, deciding what we really needed, what we had room for and making sure we didn't get anything that we would throw away.  We have not bought anything we don't need and haven't panic-bought anything for stock purposes.  I will have to go and collect these but will have to be extremely careful as to who I come into contact with and that will be it for me travelling from the house. 

It was my Mothers Day yesterday, I sent her a card but she lives 230 miles away so I can't see her, she's virtually deaf and so can't hear me when I call and it's difficult for both of us.  My partners son brought a present to the door yesterday but didn't come in, and all they could do was chat from a safe distance. 

I would love to go out on the golf course and have a few hours to myself, feel the fresh air, swing the clubs, hit a few balls.  Just get some time to myself.  I'm about 2.5 miles from the club on a quiet road with virtually no cars now so the chances of a major, or even minor, RTI is minimal.  For me, playing a round of golf at the moment is not about recreation, it's about release.  I know the situation is going to go on for a while now so, yes, there is some selfishness in it.   Sadly, I don't think I will get to do it.  Family comes first.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No mate we don't agree 😉
It really is black and white. 

Essential journeys
Food
Hospital 
Work where required.. 

Non essential everything else including golf. Running in isolation is different to a dozens of cars going to the golf club and filling the car park. Nobody needs to run but its far less impact of a system where travel is requires.  I certainly can keep people fit in the comfort on their own homes but I can't stop people thinking it's ok to drive miles to a golf course because they to stubborn to miss out.
		
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Yes your spot on .
But that’s the general public for you, they know better than us.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Well as long as I'm allowed I'll continue to go for a run, play golf and take the dog for a walk.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

I'm slowly coming round to the feeling j played my last game for a while yesterday...
Good job I made a regulation par on the last....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No mate we don't agree 😉
It really is black and white.

Essential journeys
Food
Hospital
Work where required..

Non essential everything else including golf. Running in isolation is different to a dozens of cars going to the golf club and filling the car park. Nobody needs to run but its far less impact on a system where travel is required. I certainly can keep people fit in the comfort on their own homes but I can't stop people thinking it's ok to drive miles to a golf course because they to stubborn to miss out.
		
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Might of confused you, I agree on the car bit and I agree with the essential journeys.

However, running is neither essential or necessary and if (IF) someone can walk to their Golf Course I see no difference between that and someone going for a walk/run.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Well as long as I'm allowed I'll continue to go for a run, play golf and take the dog for a walk.
		
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To be honest it’s hard to argue against this logic.
Until you are told NOT to by law your not doing anything wrong.
Everyone has to make their own assessment of the risk to them and their family.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Might of confused you, I agree on the car bit and I agree with the essential journeys.

However, running is neither essential or necessary and if (IF) someone can walk to their Golf Course I see no difference between that and someone going for a walk/run.
		
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Im not disputing if people can walk to a golf course. If like you they can then it is no different if you maintain distancing. 

But the vast majority can't walk there and will fill the car parks with unnecessary journeys.  The problem is the people that can't walk to a course bemoan those that can because why should they miss out because they have to drive.. Its a never ending circle people will make pointlessly journeys just to play golf so they don't miss out that's where selfishness comes into it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I've been agonising over the golf question for a while now.  The reality is I probably won't be golfing as I have two people in house who are in the "at risk" category.  We have been self-isolating now for about a week as my other half is paranoid about getting bugs from anywhere.  Because I've had a cold we've been sleeping in separate rooms and try to distance ourselves as much as possible in the house.  Add in to that we have to look after the father-in-law who lives with us and it gets really straining.  Just walking out into fresh air feels good.  I don't even go to the shop to get his daily papers to reduce the risk. 

I would love to go out on the golf course and have a few hours to myself, feel the fresh air, swing the clubs, hit a few balls.  Just get some time to myself.  I'm about 2.5 miles from the club on a quiet road with virtually no cars now so the chances of a major, or even minor, RTI is minimal.  For me, playing a round of golf at the moment is not about recreation, it's about release.  I know the situation is going to go on for a while now so, yes, there is some selfishness in it.   Sadly, I don't think I will get to do it.  Family comes first.
		
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Good post and I sympathise, I’m in a similar situation, we look after the mother-in-law who has cancer and is terminally ill, son was born premature and has chronic lung disease and wife suffered a stroke a few years back due to her health issues and is on immunosuppressants.

We have virtually self isolated for weeks now apart from medical appts and me visiting a few shops when home delivery have not delivered a few things.

Running/Golf is my release, wife surprisingly prefers I do the Golf as she worries about me getting injured, pulled muscles, etc.

Played a few times last week, always on my own and always in the last few daylight hours. Went once last week and 2 guys on the 1st, turned round came home.
Good luck with your situation, I do feel all Golf Clubs will be shut by next weekend and I’ll be content with training in my yard.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Better than CHUbster though...

Click to expand...

I would just like to say I have had to tighten my belt 1 notch - and that's not a metaphor 
The Mrs, on the other hand, may be the size of a small country by the time we get out....


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## Orikoru (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How far do we go with that argument?
Going for a run? Taking your dog for a walk? Shopping today instead of tomorrow? It’s not a straightforward black and white answer.
		
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You could argue that playing golf is essential for your mental health.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			You could argue that playing golf is essential for your mental health.
		
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No you really couldn't... 
You could argue exercise or walking is but not specifically just Golf. That im afraid does not work as a suggestion for being allowed to play golf.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			You could argue that playing golf is essential for your mental health.
		
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That also depends how you play.


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## USER1999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			You could argue that playing golf is essential for your mental health.
		
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Or the opposite!


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No you really couldn't... 
You could argue exercise or walking is but not specifically just Golf. That im afraid does not work as a suggestion for being allowed to play golf.
		
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Isn’t that subjective though.
Nobody is right or wrong ( playing golf ) it’s how you get there that’s a problem.
If you can walk to the course I can’t see a problem.
Until Boris bans all non essential going out.
We all have conflicting views just like the experts!


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Or the opposite!
		
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you beat me to it 😂


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## Orikoru (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No you really couldn't...
You could argue exercise or walking is but not specifically just Golf. That im afraid does not work as a suggestion for being allowed to play golf.
		
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For me it's as good as. I'm slightly playing devil's advocate, but there is truth in it as well.

At the start of this year it was all 'mental health this, mental health that'. And now, don't get me wrong I recognise the situation, but some people are practically begging for a lockdown without considering the impact on people's mental health of not being able to do ANYTHING. I'm sure the lockdown will come, but when it does I'm going to lose the plot. I've already lost golf, badminton, holidays cancelled, understand why and everything - but while golf is still available, and the authorities don't deem it necessary to shut it down, then I will still play - taking care not to touch anything or anybody of course. I'm not going to wish myself into lockdown any earlier than what is mandated. 

Golf is very important to my mental health, it gets me through the working week knowing I have a round on Saturday, it's literally the only time all week where I'm not checking my phone for four hours, I can just forget everything. Just going for a walk or a jog is not even close. I get nothing out of that bar burning a couple of calories. I know from experience that my mental health will be down the pan once I'm stuck indoors with zero activities available, and that's what scares me more than any virus.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isn’t that subjective though.
Nobody is right or wrong ( playing golf ) it’s how you get there that’s a problem.
If you can walk to the course I can’t see a problem.
Until Boris bans all non essential going out.
We all have conflicting views just like the experts!
		
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No its not subjective. Exercise can help mental health but there is no specific that says it has to be golf. So that isn't an argument for golf remaining essential. 

As I said in my previous post if you can walk to the course no problem, however people will still drive there and that's unnecessary.


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			We all have conflicting views just like the experts!
		
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We are basically surrounded by a highly contagious and potentially fatal virus.
The less contact you have with other people the less chance you have of catching it.
Do you really need someone to tell you to stay indoors?


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			For me it's as good as. I'm slightly playing devil's advocate, but there is truth in it as well.

At the start of this year it was all 'mental health this, mental health that'. And now, don't get me wrong I recognise the situation, but some people are practically begging for a lockdown without considering the impact on people's mental health of not being able to do ANYTHING. I'm sure the lockdown will come, but when it does I'm going to lose the plot. I've already lost golf, badminton, holidays cancelled, understand why and everything - but while golf is still available, and the authorities don't deem it necessary to shut it down, then I will still play - taking care not to touch anything or anybody of course. I'm not going to wish myself into lockdown any earlier than what is mandated.

Golf is very important to my mental health, it gets me through the working week knowing I have a round on Saturday, it's literally the only time all week where I'm not checking my phone for four hours, I can just forget everything. Just going for a walk or a jog is not even close. I get nothing out of that bar burning a couple of calories. I know from experience that my mental health will be down the pan once I'm stuck indoors with zero activities available, and that's what scares me more than any virus.
		
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Totally understand your points as golf is something positive to look forward to but in this climate of essential travel and exercise golf isn't required. Again understand you use it as time to escape your phone but physical and mental health benefits come from the exercise part of which the walking is more beneficial. If you aren't able to put your phone down except when playing golf then that says you need to do more for yourself to place distance between your reliance on the device. This is indicative of modern society in that when the phone was attached to a wire we were free, as soon as the phone became mobile we are tied to it...

I get all your points but from a mental health point of view golf is not the essential part, the essential part is the exercise and distancing ourselves from devices that hold us hostage.


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## Fugee (Mar 23, 2020)

I'm getting a growing understanding of what it must feel like to have anthropophobia. I'm working at home, but still go out for walks and sometimes go to the supermarket. As soon as I see anybody, I start thinking they better not get close to me.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Fugee said:



			I'm getting a growing understanding of what it must feel like to have anthropophobia. I'm working at home, but still go out for walks and sometimes go to the supermarket. As soon as I see anybody, I start thinking they better not get close to me.
		
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Glad it's not just me......


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Totally understand your points as golf os something positive to look forward to but in this climate of essential travel and exercise golf isn't required. Again understand you use it as time to escape your phone but physical and mental health benefits come from the exercise part of which the walking is more beneficial. If you aren't able to put your phone down except when playing golf then that says you need to do more for yourself to place distance between your reliance on the device. This is indicative of modern society in that when the phone was attached to a wire we were free, as soon as the phone became mobile we are tied to it...

I get all your points but from s mental health point of view golf is not the essential part, the essential part is the exercise and distancing ourselves from devices that hold us hostage.
		
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Sorry mate, I’ve done casework for the RBL for over 10yrs and have seen a few occasions when specific sport equipment has been bought for able bodied, fit people, to help with their mental health problems, sometimes it can be that narrowly focussed on their individual issues.
Very rare I accept, but still out there.


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## Orikoru (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Totally understand your points as golf is something positive to look forward to but in this climate of essential travel and exercise golf isn't required. Again understand you use it as time to escape your phone *but physical and mental health benefits come from the exercise part of which the walking is more beneficial.* If you aren't able to put your phone down except when playing golf then that says you need to do more for yourself to place distance between your reliance on the device. This is indicative of modern society in that when the phone was attached to a wire we were free, as soon as the phone became mobile we are tied to it...

I get all your points but from a mental health point of view golf is not the essential part, the essential part is the exercise and distancing ourselves from devices that hold us hostage.
		
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I don't agree with that. Golf focuses my mind on the shot/hole that I'm playing. Walking without purpose just bores me, and my mind will still be obsessing over other things. So it's not just about the walking.

I know that I check my phone too much, I have actually started setting it to battery saving mode because then it doesn't buzz when I get a message or email so I don't look at it as much. But that's just boredom and an idle mind. The only things that keep my away from my phone are playing sport because they occupy the body _and_ the mind. Walking to me is not a sport and does nothing to occupy my mind.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry mate, I’ve done casework for the RBL for over 10yrs and have seen a few occasions when specific sport equipment has been bought for able bodied, fit people, to help with their mental health problems, sometimes it can be that narrowly focussed on their individual issues.
Very rare I accept, but still out there.
		
Click to expand...

So have i worked with mental health referrals from GP for years, yes sport helps but in this current climate sport is not essential whereas exercise can still be maintained. Golf is not essential and dressing it up as such takes away from the greater issue if helping control this situation.


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## chellie (Mar 23, 2020)

Well, I've just done an aerobics workout in my lounge this am. There are 100's to find on You Tube. Got the endorphins going.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I don't agree with that. Golf focuses my mind on the shot/hole that I'm playing. Walking without purpose just bores me, and my mind will still be obsessing over other things. So it's not just about the walking.

I know that I check my phone too much, I have actually started setting it to battery saving mode because then it doesn't buzz when I get a message or email so I don't look at it as much. But that's just boredom and an idle mind. The only things that keep my away from my phone are playing sport because they occupy the body _and_ the mind. Walking to me is not a sport and does nothing to occupy my mind.
		
Click to expand...

Didnt say was just about the walking I said the walking is mire beneficial from the health aspect which it is. I agree the focus you get helps distract you but there more important things than golf.


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I don't agree with that. Golf focuses my mind on the shot/hole that I'm playing. Walking without purpose just bores me, and my mind will still be obsessing over other things. So it's not just about the walking.

I know that I check my phone too much, I have actually started setting it to battery saving mode because then it doesn't buzz when I get a message or email so I don't look at it as much. But that's just boredom and an idle mind. The only things that keep my away from my phone are playing sport because they occupy the body _and_ the mind. Walking to me is not a sport and does nothing to occupy my mind.
		
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Dare I say it but it sounds like you're saying you're not in control of your mind


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## adam6177 (Mar 23, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52003076 
above is a story about how tubes/trains are crammed and how irresponsible people are.

Yet it is the same companies who have cut services and forced people onto fewer trains....what did they expect to happen?

If peoples employers have asked them still to go to work else they wont get paid...what else do they expect to happen?

Or is this what they wanted to happen so even more drastic steps "have" to be taken?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So have i worked with mental health referrals from GP for years, yes sport helps but in this current climate sport is not essential whereas exercise can still be maintained. Golf is not essential and dressing it up as such takes away from the greater issue if helping control this situation.
		
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I’m just talking in general terms, not disputing anything about the current situation, all measures should be brought in tbh.


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2020)

We start curfew in a few hours. Anyone found outside the home without permission for the next 10 days... will be arrested 
Cases 24
Deaths 2


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## Orikoru (Mar 23, 2020)

Slab said:



			Dare I say it but it sounds like you're saying you're not in control of your mind 

Click to expand...

You have no idea.


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## IainP (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just thought I'd share my Control of Infection 'protocols' for my shopping trip on Thursday.

Thankfully it wasn't too warm a day.
1) Long sleeved shirt & long trousers.
2) Gloves and mask.
3) Parked with at least 3 spare spaces around, and in an area of the car park that wouldn't fill up.
4) Maintained social distancing in the queue to go into the shop, and with only 10 people at any one time, didn't pass anyone in any aisle.
5) When I'd left home I'd purposely left the gate open, no touching the gate. And I'd left instructions for HID to open the front door as I pulled up.
6) Unloaded direct into the kitchen cupboards.
7) Stripped off direct into the washer - washer door already open, which HID closed after I'd left the kitchen. She was in the dining area until I was in the shower.
8) Straight into the shower.
9) No going out for either of us for the next 10 days, till the next shopping trip, which will give time for any symptoms to manifest themselves.

OTT? Paranoid? I was surrounded by other paranoid people. Quite what they did when they got home...

And in the last 2 days the rate of growth in C19 numbers in the Almeria region has dropped. The curve might just be flattening.
		
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I think this, and other insights you have shared from spain should be shared more in the uk. Are you okay for us copying the relevant parts from this?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No risk of tripping over on a run and needing the emergency services then? I can walk to my Golf Course it’s that close.
Fitness/age means some peoples only exercise is Golf, what’s the difference in walking in isolation and playing in isolation?
Food, obviously we need to shop, but timing is everything.

As for pets? Best I don’t go there.

Click to expand...

Mate of mine went out for a cycle on Saturday - by himself.  I met him walking home.  He'd crashed and broken his wrist. Had not spotted a big root on the track he was on - and down he went - simple as that. Call to NHS111 coming up for advice and a likely call to a friend to take him to A&E.

[EDIT] I'll add - he felt very guilty that he was going to put a load on the NHS due to him doing an activity that was totally unnecessary


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Some very raw, anecdotal evidence of how contagious the virus is.

Think of how a hospital is staffed, e.g. how many work in the critical care areas, and how many work in the safer areas.

12% of medical staff in Spain now have COVID-19. That will mean far more than 12% of critical care staff will catch it, and that's with using masks and scrubs... 3,489 at the last count...


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## Orikoru (Mar 23, 2020)

adam6177 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52003076 
above is a story about how tubes/trains are crammed and how irresponsible people are.

Yet it is the same companies who have cut services and forced people onto fewer trains....what did they expect to happen?

If peoples employers have asked them still to go to work else they wont get paid...what else do they expect to happen?

Or is this what they wanted to happen so even more drastic steps "have" to be taken?
		
Click to expand...

I think some of these people live on a different planet. You can't just cut services and advise people not to bother turning up for work ffs. 

_"London Underground staff are "furious" that parts of the network remain crowded, despite the public being told to limit travel to essential journeys. "_

Who are they furious with? The government? With their own bosses for cutting the number of services? I'm delighted that I'm able to work from home through all this but obviously not everybody has that luxury.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I will have to go and collect these but will have to be extremely careful as to who I come into contact with and that will be it for me travelling from the house
		
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Suggest see *@Hobbit's* regime for when he goes out for food shopping.  May seem very extreme on reading, but especially where you have a great concern for others in your household the strength of any security system is it's weakest link applies.  Take care.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Good post and I sympathise, I’m in a similar situation, we look after the mother-in-law who has cancer and is terminally ill, son was born premature and has chronic lung disease and wife suffered a stroke a few years back due to her health issues and is on immunosuppressants.

We have virtually self isolated for weeks now apart from medical appts and me visiting a few shops when home delivery have not delivered a few things.

Running/Golf is my release, wife surprisingly prefers I do the Golf as she worries about me getting injured, pulled muscles, etc.

Played a few times last week, always on my own and always in the last few daylight hours. Went once last week and 2 guys on the 1st, turned round came home.
Good luck with your situation, I do feel all Golf Clubs will be shut by next weekend and I’ll be content with training in my yard.
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts are with you and all in similar situation. I hope I realise my fortune when I start ticking on to myself about how hard it is for me.
It bears no comparison.
Good luck to you all


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

Its rather unnerving to see the antisocial behaviour of some people. But those who chastise the PM for not yet imposing a lock down need to remember that there is considerable preparation and coordination required in addition to the legal framework. Services personnel, Police, Fire Services and others need to be prepared especially if idiots decide to form protest groups.

The ill-informed 'freedom' fighter/protesters who do not respect the law meaning the country walks a tight line on the edge of anarchy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Not sure that Hancock's message this morning on the Today programme about 'getting out and about'  was that helpful - that the government recognises the need for us all to be able to get out and about to keep fit.  No sir we don't.

And even if we did, then we in the UK have fitness needs no different from those of all these countries where citizens are in lockdown and cannot leave their homes.  But he still was giving this line about us being able to go outside - for fitness reasons. No!  Hancocks's message was not helpful at all.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			No its not subjective. Exercise can help mental health but there is no specific that says it has to be golf. So that isn't an argument for golf remaining essential. 

As I said in my previous post if you can walk to the course no problem, however people will still drive there and that's unnecessary.
		
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I get what your saying but a lot of people can’t do any other form of exercise really.
I can’t run because of a ACL injury years ago.
Age restricts what you can do.
My gym is shut and the only thing is going for a walk , if I do that I might as well carry my clubs.
I will struggle if I can’t leave the house.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			One man Making the decisions ? 

Realy ?
		
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Yep!  DomCum...

Article in the ST more or less saying so...


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure that Hancock's message this morning on the Today programme about 'getting out and about'  was that helpful - that the government recognises the need for us all to be able to get out and about to keep fit.  No sir we don't.

And even if we did, the we in the UK have fitness needs no different from those of all these countries where citizens are in lockdown and cannot leave there house.  But he still was giving this line about us being able to go outside - for fitness reasons. No!  Hancocks's message was not helpful at all.
		
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It gives people the excuse they are looking for, maybe even subconsciously. You wouldn't a picture of our lounge every afternoon. HID puts one of her Zumba DVD's on and we rock!


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Yep!  DomCum...

Article in the ST more or less saying so...
		
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And you believe it...Mmm, watch out, they're behind you watching you...


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I get what your saying but a lot of people can’t do any other form of exercise really.
I can’t run because of a ACL injury years ago.
Age restricts what you can do.
My gym is shut and the only thing is going for a walk , if I do that I might as well carry my clubs.
I will struggle if I can’t leave the house.
		
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I've got a dog and he needs to be walked.  It would be inhumane to expect otherwise.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			We are basically surrounded by a highly contagious and potentially fatal virus.
The less contact you have with other people the less chance you have of catching it.
Do you really need someone to tell you to stay indoors?
		
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My daughter is a teacher still working for nhs kids I am probably in more danger from her in my house than being outside.
Does this explain it in easy terms.
We all have different circumstances do you really need someone to explain that?


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## patricks148 (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I've got a dog and he needs to be walked.  It would be inhumane to expect otherwise.
		
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Same here, Rupert needs 2 hours min of exercise a day


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And you believe it...Mmm, watch out, they're behind you watching you...

Click to expand...

Whether I believe it or not is neither here not there... The media wanted it believed otherwise why publish? Was also highlighted, in the Marr show, so somebody wants the thought out there...

Didn't use smilies, in my post, as it's no smiling matter...


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## Fugee (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure that Hancock's message this morning on the Today programme about 'getting out and about'  was that helpful - that the government recognises the need for us all to be able to get out and about to keep fit.  No sir we don't.

And even if we did, the we in the UK have fitness needs no different from those of all these countries where citizens are in lockdown and cannot leave there house.  But he still was giving this line about us being able to go outside - for fitness reasons. No!  Hancocks's message was not helpful at all.
		
Click to expand...

I'm in the Netherlands. Although we're not in lockdown, pubs, clubs, etc. are closed. Many shops have also decided to close. I don't assume a lockdown will not happen here. I'm walking between 2 and 4 hours a day at the moment. Yesterday, I started to learn how to skip in preparation of a lockdown.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Fixed that for you
		
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That’s annoying when someone changes your quote to suit themselves.
The mods should ban this practice.


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2020)

Dog walking is not considered an essential activity here. If you are caught doing it you face arrest


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s annoying when someone changes your quote to suit themselves.
The mods should ban this practice.
		
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Yes I agree, it's very bad.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Slab said:



			Dog walking is not considered an essential activity here. If you are caught doing it you face arrest
		
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I don't know where here is,  but certainly I'd be surprised if it's banned in the UK. It's essential for my dog , plenty of times I'd rather stay in but i know he needs the exercise.


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I don't know where here is,  but certainly I'd be surprised if it's banned in the UK. It's essential for my dog , plenty of times I'd rather stay in but i know he needs the exercise.
		
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Sorry i sometimes forget that _location_ isn't visible on the mobile version of the forum. In Mauritius. I don't know but I suppose they've just weighed up the risk to life of a human against the best practice of keeping a pet


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Yep!  DomCum...

Article in the ST more or less saying so...
		
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Rubbish!!. Have you forgotten -there is a Cabinet. Do you really think they would allow that one man such power as that?.
Sheesh.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

chellie said:



			Well, I've just done an aerobics workout in my lounge this am. There are 100's to find on You Tube. Got the endorphins going.
		
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Apparently Joe Wicks got over 800k views on his one this morning. He is doing one for adults and I think kids as well. Good stuff.

My wife is part of a womens running group and they have a FB chat. Most of them are at home now and they did the Joe Wicks workout together. The funniest post was from one woman who stated, 'memo to self, tomorrow I can still do it in my pj's but I MUST put on a sports bra before taking part',


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## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			To be honest it’s hard to argue against this logic.
Until you are told NOT to by law your not doing anything wrong.
Everyone has to make their own assessment of the risk to them and their family.
		
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And if that decision then puts other at risk?  If that person comes in contact with a member of your family and passes on the virus to them?  
You are not doing something legally wrong perhaps, but morally?  Ethically?  This is something unprecedented in all our memories and we have to totally review how we react. 
You have to remember that we have effectively been free of major stress now for 75 years.  One of the longest histories without a major conflict that impacts directly on the UK.  We've been used to everything being relatively "nice".  Most of the people who survived the war are no longer with us.  People in WW2 still had memories of WW1 in their minds and psyche.  We don't have that now and people just can't seem to really grasp the reality or enormity of the situation.


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## Slab (Mar 23, 2020)

if the list I've just received is confirmed then my allotted date/time to go shopping this week is Thursday between 10am-3pm (that will be the only time/journey I am allowed outside the home)


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Rubbish!!. Have you forgotten -there is a Cabinet. Do you really think they would allow that one man such power as that?.
Sheesh.
		
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Yep! A cabinet of yes men/ladies...

The last cabinet member that dared resist was shown the door...


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter is a teacher still working for nhs kids I am probably in more danger from her in my house than being outside.
Does this explain it in easy terms.
We all have different circumstances do you really need someone to explain that?
		
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Course you are in more danger from your daughter's situation.
But, you going out puts you in additional danger, very small in comparison, but it is another risk
But an even bigger but, - By being outside, *you *are a risk to others. You may not intend to be in contact with others, but circumstances may arise that does bring you into contact( see silh post re his cyclist friend), and so you may spread the virus that you don't know you have. You probably haven't got it, but you don't know.
Sod's law is real😀


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure that Hancock's message this morning on the Today programme about 'getting out and about'  was that helpful - that the government recognises the need for us all to be able to get out and about to keep fit.  *No sir we don't.*

And even if we did, the we in the UK have fitness needs no different from those of all these countries where citizens are in lockdown and cannot leave there house.  But he still was giving this line about us being able to go outside - for fitness reasons. No!  Hancocks's message was not helpful at all.
		
Click to expand...

Surely as an intelligent person you *Do*!!
'Getting out and about" is a world of difference from going travelling and socialising compared to just being outside.
You must recognise that sun-light and fresh air are both beneficial to physical and mental health? It is advantageous to sleep, blood circulation, digestion and the immune system which is critical at this time. As an adult surely you can see the differences between sensible advice to keep a degree of fitness at a time when sitting around might be the easy option for people confined at home.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

Away from the politics...

Found a stash of white cotton gloves which I'll take to wearing when out... Along with my snood/dribble bib, worn bandito style, it won't be a great look but I can lob them in the wash after every trip easy enough... Every little helps...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			It gives people the excuse they are looking for, maybe even subconsciously. You wouldn't a picture of our lounge every afternoon. HID puts one of her Zumba DVD's on and we rock!
		
Click to expand...

Mrs SILH has just had me searching out Zumba vids on YouTube for her to be doing three times a week if not daily.  I will be joining her (I am told!)


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s annoying when someone changes your quote to suit themselves.
The mods should ban this practice.
		
Click to expand...

It was done because it was a quick, brief way of commenting on the post and giving a different point of view which is obvious from the changes made.
I had seen it done before several times . No disrespect was intended, merely to quickly put my view.
However, if it upsets posters to that extent, then it is a practice I shall not repeat.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Apparently Joe Wicks got over 800k views on his one this morning. He is doing one for adults and I think kids as well. Good stuff.

My wife is part of a womens running group and they have a FB chat. Most of them are at home now and they did the Joe Wicks workout together. The funniest post was from one woman who stated, 'memo to self, tomorrow I can still do it in my pj's but I MUST put on a sports bra before taking part', 

Click to expand...

We just watched Joe W do a quick 3 exercise keep fit regime on Holly & Phil.  I'm told bu Mrs SILH that I'm doing it every day.  With Zumba three times a week.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Surely as an intelligent person you *Do*!!
'Getting out and about" is a world of difference from going travelling and socialising compared to just being outside.
You must recognise that sun-light and fresh air are both beneficial to physical and mental health? It is advantageous to sleep, blood circulation, digestion and the immune system which is critical at this time. As an adult surely you can see the differences between sensible advice to keep a degree of fitness at a time when sitting around might be the easy option for people confined at home.
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's preferable - but sorry - what do you think that all those folks in Europe who are not allowed to leave their homes are doing - or if they can leave home they can only leave to go to shops or pharmacy.  Are their fitness needs in fresh air and sunlight somehow less than ours?  Further - I suggest that there many more in continental Europe who live in flats and apartments than in the UK - and so have no private garden or yard to use for exercise.  What are they doing?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

One of the benefits of living in a sparse county, Northumberland, is that there are plenty of empty spaces. We walked our dog on a beach yesterday and this was how it looked throughout our 45 minutes there. We are very lucky.

Certain beaches were crowdy yesterday by all accounts but a bit of local knowledge, going off the beaten track, helped us. I suspect this will become a regular one for us, as long as it stays this empty.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			good god man don’t you get it. My comment is nothing to do with the politics of Johnson. This about the one man who can make the decisions that might save thousands of lives...including our own - he must make them when the stupidity and selfishness of tens of thousands is quite eveident.
		
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And he will.  Just cut him some slack and let him manage the unmanageable.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of the benefits of living in a sparse county, Northumberland, is that there are plenty of empty spaces. We walked our dog on a beach yesterday and this was how it looked throughout our 45 minutes there. We are very lucky.

Certain beaches were crowdy yesterday by all accounts but a bit of local knowledge, going off the beaten track, helped us. I suspect this will become a regular one for us, as long as it stays this empty.


View attachment 29451

Click to expand...

To be fair some of the beaches are that deserted in the summer when I've been.  And all the better for it.   Which beach is this?


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

Views - Is cutting the grass in your own place irresponsible? Not near anybody else and a still day. The views of several on here would suggest to me they think that it is wrong. Fresh air and exercise away from others for a limited time.

Took a car load of household rubbish to recycling earlier because our 3 week council collection is hopelessly inadequate and I dont want rubbish festering around full wheelie bins with gulls ripping it apart, not essential I suppose but needed. With everyone being at home there is more rubbish than normal. That's a 2 mile round trip. Is that bad/wrong behaviour too? Maintaining social distance and hand washing is the guidance i have from Govt and I'm doing that. Trips out are few and 99% of the time they involve the mrs's business, food shops, dog walking. If I am doing what Government recommends then that should be ok until directive changes, no?

Also seems because some beaches/parks were crowded yesterday that those of us who walked our dogs on a deserted beach were somehow wrong, partly because we drove there and back (15 miles maybe) which some deem un-nescessary and non essential. Does circumstance not come into it at all?

Expert on tv earlier saying 2 metres is enough to avoid virus in others breath, of course if it's windy and you are downwind of an 'infected' then you could in theory be more likely to catch some of that breath and become infected. Still said risk was low but a risk nonetheless.

Should I go stand in corner and think about what I've done/may do?


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course it's preferable - but sorry - what do you think that all those folks in Europe who are not allowed to leave their homes are doing - or if they can leave home they can only leave to go to shops or pharmacy.  Are their fitness needs in fresh air and sunlight somehow less than ours?  Further - I suggest that there many more in continental Europe who live in flats and apartments than in the UK - and so have no private garden or yard to use for exercise.  What are they doing?
		
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Sorry but that's pure deflection. In no way did I suggest our European neighbours were worth less and it is scurrilous to infer that I was demeaning their situation.

You were moaning about Hancock's statement. He was referring to the UK as was I.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be fair some of the beaches are that deserted in the summer when I've been.  And all the better for it.   Which beach is this?
		
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Ssshhhhhh, it is Cresswell beach but not the obvious section. It is a long stretch of brilliant coastline and we drove further along the coast and then cut across the dunes, on a dedicated path.

You are right, the beaches here are usually pretty empty but at the moment they are busier than normal as people are looking for places to go that they believe will be quiet. I suspect the likes of Alnmouth, Bamburgh, Cresswell normal stretch, Blyth even would have been busy but there is enough where it will be okay if you know the area.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

Judging by pictures/accounts, on social media, our local beach/promenade was pretty rammed yesterday...

With so many, in these parts, living in apartments/flats etc its a difficult situation to get out for that important fresh air and sunshine when we have it...

BTW I live adjacent(ish) to a Lido with a beach and miniature railway on the edge of suburbia...


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And he will.  Just cut him some slack and let him manage the unmanageable.
		
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 There is a horrifying truth in what you've posted. Its a while since I looked at the league table of healthcare provision by country. Spain was 5th several years ago, and there's no need to think its changed that much. The efforts being made here in Spain are massive. The community, apart from an exceptionally small percentage, are absolutely behind doing the right things. 

But just have a look at the scale of the numbers! Frightening! 

It is almost unmanageable. When the dust has settled and tens of thousands are dead people will say he made a Horlicks of it without knowing how many would have died if he hadn't done it the way he will.


----------



## Twire (Mar 23, 2020)

Can we stop miss quoting people by "fixing it" for them please. If I see it, posts will be deleted and infractions given. Thank you.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Slab said:



			Sorry i sometimes forget that _location_ isn't visible on the mobile version of the forum. In Mauritius. I don't know but I suppose they've just weighed up the risk to life of a human against the best practice of keeping a pet
		
Click to expand...

He's part of the family not just a pet. I'd say most feel this way too. It's not hard to walk him and avoid social contact.


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## pendodave (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course it's preferable - but sorry - what do you think that all those folks in Europe who are not allowed to leave their homes are doing - or if they can leave home they can only leave to go to shops or pharmacy.  Are their fitness needs in fresh air and sunlight somehow less than ours?  Further - I suggest that there many more in continental Europe who live in flats and apartments than in the UK - and so have no private garden or yard to use for exercise.  What are they doing?
		
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I think that apart from parts of Italy and Spain they are doing pretty much what we are.
My impression is that the lockdown term is thrown around by all and sundry without much thought. The idea that everyone in Europe is locked in their houses is inaccurate and not helpful when considering the best course of action for the Uk.


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## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Didnt say was just about the walking I said the walking is mire beneficial from the health aspect which it is. I agree the focus you get helps distract you *but there more important things than golf.*

Click to expand...

Ban this man from the forum immediately!


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Views - Is cutting the grass in your own place irresponsible? Not near anybody else and a still day. The views of several on here would suggest to me they think that it is wrong. Fresh air and exercise away from others for a limited time.

Took a car load of household rubbish to recycling earlier because our 3 week council collection is hopelessly inadequate and I dont want rubbish festering around full wheelie bins with gulls ripping it apart, not essential I suppose but needed. With everyone being at home there is more rubbish than normal. That's a 2 mile round trip. Is that bad/wrong behaviour too? Maintaining social distance and hand washing is the guidance i have from Govt and I'm doing that. Trips out are few and 99% of the time they involve the mrs's business, food shops, dog walking. If I am doing what Government recommends then that should be ok until directive changes, no?

Also seems because some beaches/parks were crowded yesterday that those of us who walked our dogs on a deserted beach were somehow wrong, partly because we drove there and back (15 miles maybe) which some deem un-nescessary and non essential. Does circumstance not come into it at all?

Expert on tv earlier saying 2 metres is enough to avoid virus in others breath, of course if it's windy and you are downwind of an 'infected' then you could in theory be more likely to catch some of that breath and become infected. Still said risk was low but a risk nonetheless.

Should I go stand in corner and think about what I've done/may do?
		
Click to expand...

Yes and wear a D hat.  . I'm with you,  too many posts fall into crazy whatiffery.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			He's part of the family not just a pet. I'd say most feel this way too. It's not hard to walk him and avoid social contact.
		
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Nope, just a dog, just a pet, and just like all of society you get good and bad owners.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Finally some advice for driving instructors  from our governing bodies and industry groups.....

All driving lessons should stop from today...

You think..?

I stopped almost a week ago.
Unfathomable that it's taken this long...


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## Fugee (Mar 23, 2020)

I honestly don't understand what's going on in the UK. You should know what's coming. Letting people do what they want is only going to make things much worse. IMO movements should be restricted as a precaution.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope, just a dog, just a pet, and just like all of society you get good and bad owners. 

Click to expand...

For many , their cat, dog or whatever is far more than just a pet.
Pet or whatever it's detrimental to my dogs health if he isn't excersised regularly.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

For today's isolation I stupidly turned on the TV, I found out the following:

Piers Morgan condemns all those that are ignoring government advice whilst being less than 2m from co presenter.
Piers Morgan is a rude argumentative fool who was done over by the Health Secretary 
Piers Morgan never lets anyone who disagrees with him finish their answer
@piersmorgan tweeter feed is a hoot
Piers Morgan is a prat.

I also learn that you should never shoot at a TV cop because you will always miss, even if your name is Charlie, and they never do.

I have learnt my lesson so now will go wash the car, finish cutting the grass and give the house its normal 1/2 hour clean.

Stay Safe, there are fools out their.


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## GB72 (Mar 23, 2020)

Looks like the warnings are taking hold here at least. Melton High Street pretty much empty whereas on Friday you would not have known anything was happening. Part of that I suspect is that quite a number of shops are now closed.

Scarily, looked at the key worker list for my profession, obviously those involved in the administration of justice are key workers but pretty much the only other group that are also classed as that are those involved in the preparation and execution of wills. That brings the message home.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

It's clear we have differing opinions about how best to handle this crisis, and the truth is , none of us is in possession of all the facts.
But it is natural to contribute ones opinion about those making the decisions.
I am minded of a quote from some time ago that you may find relevant.
I leave it with you.

To quote Theodore Roosevelt:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

I'm not suggesting we are cold and timid souls- but .... we are not in the arena.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It's clear we have differing opinions about how best to handle this crisis, and the truth is , none of us is in possession of all the facts.
But it is natural to contribute ones opinion about those making the decisions.
I am minded of a quote from some time ago that you may find relevant.
I leave it with you.

To quote Theodore Roosevelt:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

I'm not suggesting we are cold and timid souls- but .... we are not in the arena.
		
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Good piece!

I'd add a rhetorical suggestion for people to consider. The Captain has been chosen, and he fights for our team. We can either fight with him or fight against him. What should we choose?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

But fails in comparison to a humans health.
No pet should be prioritised over a human.


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			For today's isolation I stupidly turned on the TV, I found out the following:

Piers Morgan condemns all those that are ignoring government advice whilst being less than 2m from co presenter.
Piers Morgan is a rude argumentative fool who was done over by the Health Secretary
Piers Morgan never lets anyone who disagrees with him finish their answer
@piersmorgan tweeter feed is a hoot
Piers Morgan is a prat.

I also learn that you should never shoot at a TV cop because you will always miss, even if your name is Charlie, and they never do.

I have learnt my lesson so now will go wash the car, finish cutting the grass and give the house its normal 1/2 hour clean.

Stay Safe, there are fools out their.
		
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Anyone know if ITVs breakfast show has gained viewers since Piers Morgan joined that team? I tend to watch BBC or Sky for news in the mornings but putting that man on beside the lovely Suzanne Reid ensures I can never watch it. Most annoying person on tv. The fake ratings-seeking devils advocate/pantomime villain persona he acts is utterly tedious.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It's clear we have differing opinions about how best to handle this crisis, and the truth is , none of us is in possession of all the facts.
But it is natural to contribute ones opinion about those making the decisions.
I am minded of a quote from some time ago that you may find relevant.
I leave it with you.

To quote Theodore Roosevelt:
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

I'm not suggesting we are cold and timid souls- but .... we are not in the arena.
		
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However true that is, there are certainly those that ignore what the people in the “arena” is asking. When reading here and in other places, it just baffles me that there seem to be quite a few that argue against the measurements taken, and proposed, upcoming measurements because it doesn’t fit their personal situation. 

Now, don’t get me wrong. I feel for those that are truly vulnerable, lonely, suffering from extreme mental health issues etc, but to think that the decisions made now could be somehow personalised to fit the exact need of every single person is astounding.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Just had our ASDA home delivery, knock on the door then the Lady stepped back while I unloaded it into the house.

She was telling me they had to call the Police to her home store this morning as families were taking their kids shopping with them and some of them were letting the kids run a round the store/wander off while the parents shopped, when the staff approached the parents asking them to control the kids they were threatened with violence!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And he will.  Just cut him some slack and let him manage the unmanageable.
		
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I am already cutting him a massive amount of slack.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Sorry but that's pure deflection. In no way did I suggest our European neighbours were worth less and it is scurrilous to infer that I was demeaning their situation.

You were moaning about Hancock's statement. He was referring to the UK as was I.
		
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...and all I am saying is that Hancock's statement that we in the UK somehow *need *to be out and about for exercise is just tosh...we no more *need *to be out than anyone in any other country - and they are all just having to get on with it - see @Hobbit.  

For as long as a minister says that they government recognises the public *need *to be out and about for fitness reasons, many will just use that as an excuse to go out.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But fails in comparison to a humans health.
No pet should be prioritised over a human.
		
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Plenty of people I'd put well down the  list.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Good piece!

I'd add a rhetorical suggestion for people to consider. The Captain has been chosen, and he fights for our team. We can either fight with him or fight against him. What should we choose?
		
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We fight with him...I'd just rather not be a member of the Light Brigade following Lord Cardigan.


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We fight with him...I'd just rather not be a member of the Light Brigade following Lord Cardigan.
		
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So you say fight with him, but can't help adding a little snipe at him in the very next sentence.

Considering what's going on and the fact he is in the circumstances doing a decent job and allowing the scientists and medical staff take centre stage and following their expert advise, instead of him merely doing what he or social media muppets think best, maybe you should take your own advice and fight with him and stop the snide remarks.

We aren't Italy, Spain or any other country with their laws, he has to abide by the laws and have things put in place before locking us all down. Maybe you or others think he isn't doing enough, but perhaps in this situation we can all put politic bias and personal opinion aside and simply follow the instructions given to make his job and the jobs those who actually know what they're doing a little easier.


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## Orikoru (Mar 23, 2020)

Not a fan of Boris at all but I think he's doing as well as can be expected. A situation like this is the last thing anyone was expecting, but I think he's handled it ok, he seems to be letting people who know what they're talking about do the talking. (Compare that to Trump in the same situation, who thinks he's a flipping expert on everything.) I think he's right not to order a lockdown too early as it would mean it has to be sustained for a longer period I believe which is difficult. I think he's doing fine anyway.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So you say fight with him, but can't help adding a little snipe at him in he very next sentence.

Considering what's going on and the fact he is in the circumstances doing a decent job and allowing the scientists and medical staff take centre stage and following their expert advise, instead of him merely doing what he or social media muppets think best, maybe you should take your own advice and fight with him and stop the snide remarks.

We aren't Italy, Spain or any other country with their laws, he has to abide by the laws and have things put in place before locking us all down. Maybe you or others think he isn't doing enough, but perhaps in this situation we can all put politic bias and personal opinion aside a*nd simply follow the instructions given *to make his job and the jobs those who actually know what they're doing a little easier.
		
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Trouble is current evidence would suggest not everyone is so understanding/sensible/compliant.


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## DanFST (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			We aren't Italy, Spain or any other country with their laws, he has to abide by the laws and have things put in place before locking us all down.
		
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Just to also add, Lobardia only banned sports and outdoor activities last night, Not all of Italy. also it doesn't appear to be being enforced in smaller towns.


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## Fugee (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just had our ASDA home delivery, knock on the door then the Lady stepped back while I unloaded it into the house.

She was telling me they had to call the Police to her home store this morning as families were taking their kids shopping with them and some of them were letting the kids run a round the store/wander off while the parents shopped, when the staff approached the parents asking them to control the kids they were threatened with violence!
		
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And these are the sort of people that, if the measures work, will say it was all a fuss about nothing.

However, I cannot see how this is not going to affect everybody in some way sooner or later.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Course you are in more danger from your daughter's situation.
But, you going out puts you in additional danger, very small in comparison, but it is another risk
But an even bigger but, - By being outside, *you *are a risk to others. You may not intend to be in contact with others, but circumstances may arise that does bring you into contact( see silh post re his cyclist friend), and so you may spread the virus that you don't know you have. You probably haven't got it, but you don't know.
Sod's law is real😀
		
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She phones me when she’s in our road .
I go out while she puts her clothes in the washing machine and has a shower.
I make sure I stay away from everyone but if we have a lockdown I won’t be able to do this.
I will be in the shed soon so it might take a complete ban to sort it out.
But having said that a lockdown dosnt seem to be working in other countries if you look at the death rate.


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## User20204 (Mar 23, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Just to also add, Lobardia only banned sports and outdoor activities last night, Not all of Italy. also it doesn't appear to be being enforced in smaller towns.
		
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yet there are some on this very forum pointing their moral compass at us suggesting we are putting the whole countries health at risk.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2020)

Popped to Tesco last first thing (6am) as the local garage hadn’t had a night shift delivery. Got all the essentials including a 24 pack of loo roll (1 pack for 3 families). Had seen a fair amount of police fly last work in the early hours and the answer became apparmet when I got to Tesco. A digger had been used to take the 3 cash points from the wall. This resulted in half car park being cordoned off.

Drove past on way home at 8am and cars were queuing out of estate and onto main road......


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## Fugee (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			But having said that a lockdown dosnt seem to be working in other countries if you look at the death rate.
		
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What's working? Stopping it? I don't think so. Slowing down the death rate so that the emergency services can help save some lives. A few countries have started to see the daily death rate drop on some days. That's what working means IMO. Uncontrolled, it's been doubling every three days.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Views - Is cutting the grass in your own place irresponsible? Not near anybody else and a still day. The views of several on here would suggest to me they think that it is wrong. Fresh air and exercise away from others for a limited time.

Took a car load of household rubbish to recycling earlier because our 3 week council collection is hopelessly inadequate and I dont want rubbish festering around full wheelie bins with gulls ripping it apart, not essential I suppose but needed. With everyone being at home there is more rubbish than normal. That's a 2 mile round trip. Is that bad/wrong behaviour too? Maintaining social distance and hand washing is the guidance i have from Govt and I'm doing that. Trips out are few and 99% of the time they involve the mrs's business, food shops, dog walking. If I am doing what Government recommends then that should be ok until directive changes, no?

Also seems because some beaches/parks were crowded yesterday that those of us who walked our dogs on a deserted beach were somehow wrong, partly because we drove there and back (15 miles maybe) which some deem un-nescessary and non essential. Does circumstance not come into it at all?

Expert on tv earlier saying 2 metres is enough to avoid virus in others breath, of course if it's windy and you are downwind of an 'infected' then you could in theory be more likely to catch some of that breath and become infected. Still said risk was low but a risk nonetheless.

Should I go stand in corner and think about what I've done/may do?
		
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everything you say is ok for me except do you need to drive anywhere to walk your dog.


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2020)

The golfing holiday down to south coast for June, has just been cancelled. No surprised and a nice early cancellation done by the bond.

Glad really, as we would not have gone.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Anyone know if ITVs breakfast show has gained viewers since Piers Morgan joined that team? I tend to watch BBC or Sky for news in the mornings but putting that man on beside the lovely Suzanne Reid ensures I can never watch it. Most annoying person on tv. The fake ratings-seeking devils advocate/pantomime villain persona he acts is utterly tedious.
		
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It's a dilema isn't it? I like a dose of Susanna  but that would mean listening to him. In the end I decided that for my own health I dropped GMB as he just became too infuriating. 

I quite liked Sky breakfast but it morphed into the Kay Burley show and I can't bear her either. A shame as the other presenters were really good. I don't know if that is a temporary move, I hope so.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			everything you say is ok for me except do you need to drive anywhere to walk your dog.
		
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Sometimes you need to to escape the numbers. I could, and will, walk our dog around our estate a lot right now. So are lots of others though. I could walk into town and around the park, errrmmmm. Yesterday we drove 10-15 mins to an empty beach, I posted a picture further back. It was the most isolated I could have been whilst walking our dog yesterday.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Police stopped our neighbour earlier today on her daily walk into the village for bread - they've seen her several times before. Advice from them today, "buy in bulk or get fined."


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sometimes you need to to escape the numbers. I could, and will, walk our dog around our estate a lot right now. So are lots of others though. I could walk into town and around the park, errrmmmm. Yesterday we drove 10-15 mins to an empty beach, I posted a picture further back. It was the most isolated I could have been whilst walking our dog yesterday.
		
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Get it but an RTA on the way isn’t good.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sometimes you need to to escape the numbers. I could, and will, walk our dog around our estate a lot right now. So are lots of others though. I could walk into town and around the park, errrmmmm. Yesterday we drove 10-15 mins to an empty beach, I posted a picture further back. It was the most isolated I could have been whilst walking our dog yesterday.
		
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Ironic thing is that we live in the sticks and I've been walking the dog in the fields near me for years and hardly see anyone from day to day.  But over the weekend it has suddenly got a lot busier.  Every Saturday morning for years I've done a 12K dog walk in the woods and across fields which is usually mostly deserted, Saturday there were people wandering round lost looking for footpath signs or staring at their phones trying to work out where they were on google maps.  Bloody nightmare, sod off townies.....


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ironic thing is that we live in the sticks and I've been walking the dog in the fields near me for years and hardly see anyone from day to day.  But over the weekend it has suddenly got a lot busier.  Every Saturday morning for years I do a 12K dog walk in the woods and across fields which is usually mostly deserted, Saturday there were people wandering round lost looking for footpath signs or staring at their phones trying to work out where they were on google maps.  Bloody nightmare, sod off townies.....

Click to expand...

They may be locals that drive their dogs somewhere else normally.
But decided to stay local now.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Fugee said:



			What's working? Stopping it? I don't think so. Slowing down the death rate so that the emergency services can help save some lives. A few countries have started to see the daily death rate drop on some days. That's what working means IMO. Uncontrolled, it's been doubling every three days.
		
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I see what your saying but our “ experts “ are telling us conflicting things.
Matt Hancock think we should all go out for some fresh air.
While most of the scientists not all advocate staying indoors.
You pick your “expert” according to what you belive.
They all need to sing from the same sheet so we know where we stand.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Get it but an RTA on the way isn’t good.
		
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We are in 'what if' territory there though. What if I don't walk the dog, I become unhealthy, stressed and have a heart attack? In to the hospital I go. I have taken that to an extreme but once you start going down the 'what if' route it can all get silly. 

I am taking the risk assesment of what are the chances of me being in a RTA right now, driving on the roads I go on? The roads are as empty as I have ever seen them right now. People working from home, not going to the shops etc means the roads are very quiet. It is as low a risk as it has ever been for me.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Police stopped our neighbour earlier today on her daily walk into the village for bread - they've seen her several times before. Advice from them today, "buy in bulk or get fined."
		
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Hardly see the police patrolling now days with all the cut backs. Even if you call them re something like a  accident or a break in, it'll take them hours to attend, if they come out at all.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Get it but an RTA on the way isn’t good.
		
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That's a bit whatiffery.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Hardly see the police patrolling now days with all the cut backs. Even if you call them re something like a  accident or a break in, it'll take them hours to attend, if they come out at all.

Click to expand...

We were discussing this today.
Can’t remember the last time I seen a beat bobby. Or a patrol car for that matter.
Plenty in the city centre but not here.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			That's a bit whatiffery.
		
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Tell that to the paramedics and firemen cutting you out your car.
It’s not nessesary to drive anywhere to walk your dog.
It’s about reducing the possibility that’s all.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2020)

Last week it was fine to go for a drive during social distancing


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Tell that to the paramedics and firemen cutting you out your car.
It’s not nessesary to drive anywhere to walk your dog.
It’s about reducing the possibility that’s all.
		
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It’s not necessary to own a dog, unless it’s got a purpose, ie police/customs etc.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I see what your saying but our “ experts “ are telling us conflicting things.
Matt Hancock think we should all go out for some fresh air.
While most of the scientists not all advocate staying indoors.
You pick your “expert” according to what you belive.
They all need to sing from the same sheet so we know where we stand.
		
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Amongst all the experts advice there is a few absolutes. The numbers that have caught it, how infectious it seems to be and the numbers that have died. We don't need an expert to assess the risk. "Oh, go out and risk getting something that will KILL me. Stay in and reduce the risk of being KILLED." 

Doesn't look like a tough one for me.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

A supplier of ours, we have been buying from them for 15yrs, has just sent an email stating that orders for the forseeable future will need to be paid for before they are shipped. They are facing this from their supplier and so they are having to do the same. This is an interesting change to how most of business works when they are long term customers. Clearly companies are worried about being caught with bad debt and are starting to protect themselves.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			We were discussing this today.
Can’t remember the last time I seen a beat bobby. Or a patrol car for that matter.
Plenty in the city centre but not here.
		
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Same here for London...


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

A neighbour commented about seeing our lad wishing his Mum happy Mothers day from halfway down the path... Asking if we were "at risk" herself politely advising we are all "at risk"...


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Tell that to the paramedics and firemen cutting you out your car.
It’s not nessesary to drive anywhere to walk your dog.
It’s about reducing the possibility that’s all.
		
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I'm following the guidelines laid out by the government.  And I'm  not driving my dog anywhere.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I see what your saying but our “ experts “ are telling us conflicting things.
Matt Hancock think we should all go out for some fresh air.
While most of the scientists not all advocate staying indoors.
You pick your “expert” according to what you belive.
They all need to sing from the same sheet so we know where we stand.
		
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It is entirely possible they are both right; I haven't read anywhere instructing us to stay indoors (although, I accept that for some, staying home is indoors)


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Amongst all the experts advice there is a few absolutes. *The numbers that have caught it*, how infectious it seems to be and the numbers that have died. We don't need an expert to assess the risk. "Oh, go out and risk getting something that will KILL me. Stay in and reduce the risk of being KILLED."

Doesn't look like a tough one for me.
		
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I'm not sure the bit in bold can be classed as an absolute, especially in the UK. The minute they stopped testing anyone apart from those seriously ill in hospital meant that we have no idea of how many people have caught it in this country. You only have yo look at the confirmed number of cases in the UK compared to the estimated number of cases to see that the latter is around 10 times the former.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

Not sure if this helps, probably not, but Crossfield has entered the debate on whether to golf or not.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Police stopped our neighbour earlier today on her daily walk into the village for bread - they've seen her several times before. Advice from them today, "buy in bulk or get fined."
		
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Fair point - but a genuine question. Is it easy enough for you to get what you need in bulk at the moment. By bulk I mean, say, a weeks worth of stuff. (I'm guessing it's nice to get fresh bread daily but hardly essential given the circumstances)


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Fair point - but a genuine question. Is it easy enough for you to get what you need in bulk at the moment. By bulk I mean, say, a weeks worth of stuff. (I'm guessing it's nice to get fresh bread daily but hardly essential given the circumstances)
		
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I could fill the freezer 10x if I felt the urge. No shortages after the first few days.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			She phones me when she’s in our road .
I go out while she puts her clothes in the washing machine and has a shower.
I make sure I stay away from everyone but if we have a lockdown I won’t be able to do this.
I will be in the shed soon so it might take a complete ban to sort it out.
*But having said that a lockdown dosnt seem to be working in other countries if you look at the death rate.*

Click to expand...

I shake my head. Genuinely shaking my head.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I shake my head. Genuinely shaking my head.
		
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Got to agree with you there JG.

Its not that hard to grasp the concept.

Population of China: Lockdown imposed: Curve flattens:

Population of Southern Spain: Lockdown imposed: Curve looks like its flattening quite early:

Cities that are densely populated, curve struggles to flatten. Rural areas where social isolation is easier to achieve, curve flattens.

*EDIT: no C19 deaths in Malaga province today...*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So you say fight with him, but can't help adding a little snipe at him in the very next sentence.

Considering what's going on and the fact he is in the circumstances doing a decent job and allowing the scientists and medical staff take centre stage and following their expert advise, instead of him merely doing what he or social media muppets think best, maybe you should take your own advice and fight with him and stop the snide remarks.

We aren't Italy, Spain or any other country with their laws, he has to abide by the laws and have things put in place before locking us all down. Maybe you or others think he isn't doing enough, but perhaps in this situation we can all put politic bias and personal opinion aside and simply follow the instructions given to make his job and the jobs those who actually know what they're doing a little easier.
		
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He is doing a decent job in very, very difficult circumstances.  I absolutely want to trust him and so far I have done so and want to continue to do so.

But I do not think the manner he and Hancock are currently speaking is actually conveying the dire gravity of our situation.

If many people are not listening to - or are listening but not hearing - messages that require us all to act accordingly now - then they have to take alternative immediate action - don;t wait - every day costs lives.  That is ALL I am saying.

People are also confused (I'll be kind).  How can we have an in our face message on the podium that says 'Stay at Home' and in the same and subsequent briefings we are told it's OK to go out walking the dog or to keep fit.  The two messages conflict - one very serious and constraining - the other flexible and friendly.

That said - I hope and pray that sufficient has been said yesterday and today about what went on over the weekend to make us all realise what we MUST do - that the messages have got through.  It's a beautiful day down south east today.  Many are now off work and at home - unable to work.  I hope everyone has heeded the serious and constraining words


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He is doing a decent job in very, very difficult circumstances.  I absolutely want to trust him and so far I have done so and want to continue to do so.

But I do not think the manner he and Hancock are currently speaking is actually conveying the dire gravity of our situation.

If many people are not listening to - or are listening but not hearing - messages that require us all to act accordingly now - then they have to take alternative immediate action - don;t wait - every day costs lives.  That is ALL I am saying.

People are also confused (I'll be kind).  How can we have an in our face message on the podium that says 'Stay at Home' and in the same and subsequent briefings we are told it's OK to go out walking the dog or to keep fit.  The two messages conflict - one very serious and constraining - the other flexible and friendly.

And that said - I hope and pray that sufficient has been said yesterday and today about what went on over the weekend to make us all realise what we MUST do - that the messages have got through.
		
Click to expand...

No you made snide remarks so it's not all you are saying. You're returning to type of your usual posts that you say one thing then convey another with insults toward the man. There are no buts you either back him or you don't in this situation it's quite simple.

He along with the correct advisors are doing what's currently best for our nation in preparation for further action. Which once it comes others will then find reason to complain about he's in a no win situation as are other nations leaders its just sad people feel need to resort to petty comments.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Not a fan of Boris at all but I think he's doing as well as can be expected. A situation like this is the last thing anyone was expecting, but I think he's handled it ok, he seems to be letting people who know what they're talking about do the talking. (Compare that to Trump in the same situation, who thinks he's a flipping expert on everything.) I think he's right not to order a lockdown too early as it would mean it has to be sustained for a longer period I believe which is difficult. I think he's doing fine anyway.
		
Click to expand...

So in respect of a lockdown I simply ask what difference will the individual feel if a lockdown is four weeks duration or four weeks and 2/3 days duration.  None I'd suggest.  But the difference in 'flattening the curve' that the 2/3 days earlier make might be very significant indeed.

But some people...fast forward to 12:00 minutes in


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## Orikoru (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So in respect of a lockdown I simply ask what difference will the individual feel if a lockdown is four weeks duration or four weeks and 2/3 days duration.  None I'd suggest.  But the difference in 'flattening the curve' that the 2/3 days earlier make might be very significant indeed.
		
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Yeah or it might not? The point is I'm pretty sure Boris is getting expert advice from healthcare professionals not just making it up himself. The concept of being 'locked down' is awful to me so I don't want it be in place any longer than what is absolutely necessary.


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## Dando (Mar 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Aye me good man but don’t thee worry as I sed to my Mexican pals last yeer that I saw all this coming and there wouldn’t be a problem as I n my missis tash said we didnt get this done that their mine
		
Click to expand...

have another go as that post makes sense!


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			everything you say is ok for me except do you need to drive anywhere to walk your dog.
		
Click to expand...

Technically no but practically yes, I live in town, no parks here, too hilly/rocky. Nearest woods are about 2.5 miles away, walking there would mean coming into contact with plenty people which I dont want. The roads are bad for walkers/cyclists - too narrow  so often no pavement.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nope, just a dog, just a pet, and just like all of society you get good and bad owners. 

Click to expand...

Don’t agree with your opinion, but most dog owners would risk their own life and other human lives for their 4 legged family.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He is doing a decent job in very, very difficult circumstances.  I absolutely want to trust him and so far I have done so and want to continue to do so.

*But I do not think the manner he and Hancock are currently speaking is actually conveying the dire gravity of our situation.*

If many people are not listening to - or are listening but not hearing - messages that require us all to act accordingly now - then they have to take alternative immediate action - don;t wait - every day costs lives.  That is ALL I am saying.

People are also confused (I'll be kind).  How can we have an in our face message on the podium that says 'Stay at Home' and in the same and subsequent briefings we are told it's OK to go out walking the dog or to keep fit.  The two messages conflict - one very serious and constraining - the other flexible and friendly.

That said - I hope and pray that sufficient has been said yesterday and today about what went on over the weekend to make us all realise what we MUST do - that the messages have got through.  It's a beautiful day down south east today.  Many are now off work and at home - unable to work.  I hope everyone has heeded the serious and constraining words
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. What has been said has been clear. First it was " please voluntarily do social distancing. If everyone does this, we can beat it without worse measures". Words to that effect.
It was said days running. A significant number of U.K. Citizens decided to refute the advice.
They didn't misunderstand it, they didn't not hear it. They said "boxxxcks"

The message has been given clearly.
Just now in HoC Mr Hancock was asked by some woman MP to increase publicity because the message wasn't getting through. He stood up with a big sigh. You could guess the next word that he wanted to say. 
How he checked his exasperation I don't know.!
The lock down will come because the population has *refused* to do the right thing


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 23, 2020)

Told today at work to expect a letter from the crown in the coming days to be used as a travel permit.


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## Pin-seeker (Mar 23, 2020)

https://www.nme.com/news/music/liam...c-coronavirus-hand-washing-videos-2633023?amp

Legend 😂


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## ger147 (Mar 23, 2020)

This afternoon's Downing St Daily Briefing cancelled due to a COBRA meeting currently taking place.  Just a guess but suspect they may be debating lock down measures that will be incoming very soon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Please can someone clear the following up.  I have just heard this most basic question just asked of an expert on BBC News - and I remain confused.

I get symptoms of something that could be C-19.  At that point both myself and Mrs SILH enter a 14 day self-isolation period.  After 7 days I will have been through it if I had indeed caught C-19 and I will no longer be infectious.  If I was on my own I could at this point take myself out of self-isolation - but because I am NOT alone - I am with my wife - *I must stay in self-isolation with her until the 14 days is up*.  Is that correct?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I disagree. What has been said has been clear. First it was " please voluntarily do social distancing. If everyone does this, we can beat it without worse measures". Words to that effect.
It was said days running. A significant number of U.K. Citizens decided to refute the advice.
They didn't misunderstand it, they didn't not hear it. They said "boxxxcks"

The message has been given clearly.
Just now in HoC Mr Hancock was asked by some woman MP to increase publicity because the message wasn't getting through. He stood up with a big sigh. You could guess the next word that he wanted to say.
How he checked his exasperation I don't know.!
The lock down will come because the population has *refused* to do the right thing
		
Click to expand...

And if many *continue *to refuse (and on what basis does the government and experts make that assessment?) but we wait 2 or 3 days to have that 'confirmed by the data' (what data?) before we are put into lockdown, then we lose the suppression on the acceleration in growth of numbers infected that that 2-3 days would have. The acceleration is happening NOW - 2-3 days continued acceleration at current level puts the growth on a very different trajectory than it will be on if we apply the acceleration suppression measures now.

To what benefit the delay?   Why wait?  Delay will simply cost lives.  We are almost 100% certainly going to have to go into lockdown - let's just get on with it.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please can someone clear the following up.  I have just heard this most basic question just asked of an expert on BBC News - and I remain confused.

I get symptoms of something that could be C-19.  At that point both myself and Mrs SILH enter a 14 day self-isolation period.  After 7 days I will have been through it if I had indeed caught C-19 and I will no longer be infectious.  If I was on my own I could at this point take myself out of self-isolation - but because I am NOT alone - I am with my wife - *I must stay in self-isolation with her until the 14 days is up*.  Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/


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## AmandaJR (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please can someone clear the following up.  I have just heard this most basic question just asked of an expert on BBC News - and I remain confused.

I get symptoms of something that could be C-19.  At that point both myself and Mrs SILH enter a 14 day self-isolation period.  After 7 days I will have been through it if I had indeed caught C-19 and I will no longer be infectious.  If I was on my own I could at this point take myself out of self-isolation - but because I am NOT alone - I am with my wife - *I must stay in self-isolation with her until the 14 days is up*.  Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

That got me too. I think it's you self isolate for 7 days from showing symptoms. Anyone at home who isn't showing symptoms can self-isolate for 7 days from showing symptoms but as it may take 14 days to show them they have to allow for 14 days from your symptoms...I think!


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## Paperboy (Mar 23, 2020)

Self Isolation Guide

From the BBC image at the end explains


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 23, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			That got me too. I think it's you self isolate for 7 days from showing symptoms. Anyone at home who isn't showing symptoms can self-isolate for 7 days from showing symptoms but as it may take 14 days to show them they have to allow for 14 days from your symptoms...I think!
		
Click to expand...

I’m no doctor, but thinking like this. 
I have got Corona and infect my partner. 
After 8 days I’m basically symptom free, but a day earlier my partner started showing clear symptoms of it. 

Can it be that it gives the virus a second wind for me? Not that I catch the virus again, but that it catches on before it have been 100% cured.


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## bobmac (Mar 23, 2020)




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## AmandaJR (Mar 23, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I’m no doctor, but thinking like this.
I have got Corona and infect my partner.
After 8 days I’m basically symptom free, but a day earlier my partner started showing clear symptoms of it.

Can it be that it gives the virus a second wind for me? Not that I catch the virus again, but that it catches on before it have been 100% cured.
		
Click to expand...

I think it's more that from day one the non-infected partner is at risk of infection which may take 14 days to show itself?


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## huds1475 (Mar 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Slab, thankyou very much for that post, ave spoke to IO, ave spoke to friends In Italy and quite frankly there shit scared. But at the same time have a mentality towards this us Brits just do not have ( at the moment).
Ave asked questions on here that I honestly dont know the answers to and am prejudiced.
And now it's got political. People post on here and some responses are simply "Bullshit". -Thats all that is written. 
The same people that have been emptying shelves are the same people that buggered off to the seaside for the day. They just dont get it. 
Always nice to see an outside view of how folk view us Holier than thou Brits.
Stay safe Slab.
Oh ah, me and missis T have had a little romantic walk tonight, seen a couple of racoons..Anyway she said " I fancy going back to Mauritius" 😳
Flippin eck can we finish this one.
Well.written Slab.
		
Click to expand...

Is this a wind-up?

Or have you been drinking too much Mescal?


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

PM to address the Nation at 8.30


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## AmandaJR (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			PM to address the Nation at 8.30
		
Click to expand...

Oh crikey...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

Morrisons doing a £30 basic food box [veggie or meat eaters] + £5 delivery.
6 Day wait.
Good idea


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Don’t agree with your opinion, but most dog owners would risk their own life and other human lives for their 4 legged family.
		
Click to expand...

Don’t care whether you agree or not, we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Brought up with pets, owned pets etc, one of the worst things I’ve been through was holding my dog when she had to be put down, but IMO, no pet should be put before a human.

We’ve seen examples near the coast were dog owners have lost their lives trying to save their pet, absolutely stupid and a waste of a life.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Please can someone clear the following up.  I have just heard this most basic question just asked of an expert on BBC News - and I remain confused.

I get symptoms of something that could be C-19.  At that point both myself and Mrs SILH enter a 14 day self-isolation period.  After 7 days I will have been through it if I had indeed caught C-19 and I will no longer be infectious.  If I was on my own I could at this point take myself out of self-isolation - but because I am NOT alone - I am with my wife - *I must stay in self-isolation with her until the 14 days is up*.  Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

This has been explained time and time again, beaten to it.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 23, 2020)

Local news just showing huge queues outside MacDonalds in Northampton...what a total bunch of muppets and seems we may have to lockdown to save us from the stupidity.


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## huds1475 (Mar 23, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Morrisons doing a £30 basic food box [veggie or meat eaters] + £5 delivery.
6 Day wait.
Good idea
		
Click to expand...

Cant see that. Still asks to book delivery slot.

None available like all the others 😒


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

@Tashyboy who's keen on following Govt advice, what times your flight, you are requested to return to the UK.


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## huds1475 (Mar 23, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Local news just showing huge queues outside MacDonalds in Northampton...what a total bunch of muppets and seems we may have to lockdown to save us from the stupidity.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps it's good for their mental wellbeing Amanda 🙄


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 23, 2020)

Suggest Boris is going to lockdown at 8.30. Certainly going to be a big announcement


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

Those complaining that the Government's actions aren't working need to remember there is lag in the process of about 2 weeks between actions and manifestation.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 23, 2020)

I have been banned from golf by HID, then she said she needed to go to the school to pick up books and PE kit. So I said no, that was worse than the golf course. So those bags stayed at school.
Home schooling seemed to go okay. I need to find some stuff to do I raked and re sowed some front lawn.. but I have limited supplies and won’t be ordering any more.


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

ger147 said:



			This afternoon's Downing St Daily Briefing cancelled due to a COBRA meeting currently taking place.  Just a guess but suspect they may be debating lock down measures that will be incoming very soon.
		
Click to expand...

8.30 PM announcement. Lockdown?

Commuter trains packed again today, every local authority judging essential worker criteria separately, needs some joined up thinking. 
Hate to think where we'll be in 2 weeks given attitudes to covid19.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Local news just showing huge queues outside MacDonalds in Northampton...what a total bunch of muppets and seems we may have to lockdown to save us from the stupidity.
		
Click to expand...

There is a concern that apes can get infected, we will need to monitor Northampton.


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			8.30 PM announcement. Lockdown?

Commuter trains packed again today, every local authority judging essential worker criteria separately, needs some joined up thinking.
Hate to think where we'll be in 2 weeks given attitudes to covid19.
		
Click to expand...

I can't see it being full lockdown for everyone tonight, maybe a transitional move first to see how it goes.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Don’t care whether you agree or not, we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Brought up with pets, owned pets etc, one of the worst things I’ve been through was holding my dog when she had to be put down, but IMO, no pet should be put before a human.

We’ve seen examples near the coast were dog owners have lost their lives trying to save their pet, absolutely stupid and a waste of a life.
		
Click to expand...

And with attitudes like that are why quite frankly I couldn’t give two hoots if Mother Nature and covid gave us the clean sweep! What selfish self centred Neanderthals we are.


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## IainP (Mar 23, 2020)

When first read the Macdonald's announcement,  with a delay before shutting, I did wonder if the intention was to create some demand and clear the perishable stock.


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2020)

BREAKING: Customs officials at Dover have discovered two tons of toilet roll hidden inside cocaine....


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

IainP said:



			When first read the Macdonald's announcement,  with a delay before shutting, I did wonder if the intention was to create some demand and clear the perishable stock.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah of course , drove up to ours and it's  queuing down the street.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			And with attitudes like that are why quite frankly I couldn’t give two hoots if Mother Nature and covid gave us the clean sweep! What selfish self centred Neanderthals we are.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully once all the neanderthals are gone we can train the pets to be bread winners for families etc

Get over yourself, not once have I suggested harming or allowing a pet to suffer. Just putting a humans life above them.

Maybe you should ask the RSPCA if all pet owners are responsible people.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I'm following the guidelines laid out by the government.  And I'm  not driving my dog anywhere.
		
Click to expand...

That’s good but my post was about people who are driving their dogs around to go for a walk.


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## Slime (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Don’t care whether you agree or not, we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Brought up with pets, owned pets etc, one of the worst things I’ve been through was holding my dog when she had to be put down,* but IMO, no pet should be put before a human.*

We’ve seen examples near the coast were dog owners have lost their lives trying to save their pet, absolutely stupid and a waste of a life.
		
Click to expand...

I'd put my dog before many humans I can think of.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I shake my head. Genuinely shaking my head.
		
Click to expand...

90’000 people in Spain have been fined.
So a lockdown isn’t working.
I would say in the UK there would be more , if we had the police to enforce it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			I'd put my dog before many humans I can think of.
		
Click to expand...

And as is your right to your opinion mate, I have no issue with that, but I wouldn’t.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			90’000 people in Spain have been fined.
So a lockdown isn’t working.
I would say in the UK there would be more , if we had the police to enforce it
		
Click to expand...

Oh me sides...  …. you're killing me... 

I was out on Thursday for shopping. 99% of the cars only had one person in it, as per the regs. I saw about 10% of the cars I would normally see. The supermarket had about a dozen in the queue to go in, and 10 people inside. Maybe 30 cars in the car park, including those owned by the staff.

90,000 idiots, plus a number that won't have been caught. 54,000,000 that are behaving themselves. How many ways do you want to keep trying to justify your stance on this? You'll convince some, who probably haven't changed their mind anyway, but 99% of people are being responsible. 

Remember, every time you see a crowd of 100 people, there's thousands of people sat at home doing the right thing.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Oh me sides...  …. you're killing me... 

I was out on Thursday for shopping. 99% of the cars only had one person in it, as per the regs. I saw about 10% of the cars I would normally see. The supermarket had about a dozen in the queue to go in, and 10 people inside. Maybe 30 cars in the car park, including those owned by the staff.

90,000 idiots, plus a number that won't have been caught. 54,000,000 that are behaving themselves. How many ways do you want to keep trying to justify your stance on this? You'll convince some, who probably haven't changed their mind anyway, but 99% of people are being responsible. 

Remember, every time you see a crowd of 100 people, there's thousands of people sat at home doing the right thing.
		
Click to expand...

My stance is we have conflicting advice.
The guy in charge needs to make his mind up .
Lock it down or stop moaning people are doing what his ministers tell us ( Matt Hancock) go out for some fresh air for your mental health.
He can’t have it both ways so lockdown is prob on its way .
That’s not a problem for me .
But my daughter teaching the kids of NHS workers is going to put me in the virus way sooner or later as I won’t be able to leave the house.
If she brings it home!!


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## Kellfire (Mar 23, 2020)

There’s one particular moron that I keep on social media as a reminder of how


clubchamp98 said:



			My stance is we have conflicting advice.
The guy in charge needs to make his mind up .
Lock it down or stop moaning people are doing what his ministers tell us ( Matt Hancock) go out for some fresh air for your mental health.
He can’t have it both ways so lockdown is prob on its way .
That’s not a problem for me .
But my daughter teaching the kids of NHS workers is going to put me in the virus way sooner or later as I won’t be able to leave the house.
If she brings it home!!
		
Click to expand...

We’ll almost all be exposed to it at some point, that can’t be helped unless we do find a vaccine quickly which is unlikely. We can only limit our interactions as much as we can to buy us time.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My stance is we have conflicting advice.
The guy in charge needs to make his mind up .
Lock it down or stop moaning people are doing what his ministers tell us ( Matt Hancock) go out for some fresh air for your mental health.
He can’t have it both ways so lockdown is prob on its way .
That’s not a problem for me .
But my daughter teaching the kids of NHS workers is going to put me in the virus way sooner or later as I won’t be able to leave the house.
If she brings it home!!
		
Click to expand...

You've latched on to what you want to hear. Boris and a number of other ministers have all said the same thing time and again. Did it not occur to you that Hancock got it wrong?


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			There’s one particular moron that I keep on social media as a reminder of how
We’ll almost all be exposed to it at some point, that can’t be helped unless we do find a vaccine quickly which is unlikely. We can only limit our interactions as much as we can to buy us time.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I agree it’s odds on we will.
My point was 
Boris is telling us to stay home please.
Matt Hancock is telling us to go out for our mental health and fitness.
It’s no wonder people are asking questions.

But will a lockdown be taken as a challenge to lots of activists in the U.K. ?
My opinion is it will be!


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I agree it’s odds on we will.
My point was 
Boris is telling us to stay home please.
Matt Hancock is telling us to go out for our mental health and fitness.
It’s no wonder people are asking questions.

But will a lockdown be taken as a challenge to lots of activists in the U.K. ?
My opinion is it will be!
		
Click to expand...

I think you havnt really listened to Boris.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You've latched on to what you want to hear. Boris and a number of other ministers have all said the same thing time and again. Did it not occur to you that Hancock got it wrong?
		
Click to expand...

Yes of course but he’s not the only one.
So called experts are giving the same conflicting advice.
If you give people a choice you can’t be surprised if some choose the one you oppose.
That choice needs to be locked down imo.
But I have a feeling people will ignore a lockdown order here anyway.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I think you havnt really listened to Boris.
		
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite show me where he has ordered people not to go out and backed it up with sanctions.
He has asked very nicely that’s all.


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## pendodave (Mar 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			90’000 people in Spain have been fined.
So a lockdown isn’t working.
I would say in the UK there would be more , if we had the police to enforce it
		
Click to expand...

We don't though . we have about half as many per person and our population is not quite as concentrated in particular areas as Spain (I think)


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## spongebob59 (Mar 23, 2020)

Just when you thought that it could not get worse a friend at a local hospital has told me staff are being targeted (mugged) for their staff passes.

F&%$ing scum.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And if many *continue *to refuse (and on what basis does the government and experts make that assessment?) but we wait 2 or 3 days to have that 'confirmed by the data' (what data?) before we are put into lockdown, then we lose the suppression on the acceleration in growth of numbers infected that that 2-3 days would have. The acceleration is happening NOW - 2-3 days continued acceleration at current level puts the growth on a very different trajectory than it will be on if we apply the acceleration suppression measures now.

To what benefit the delay?   Why wait?  Delay will simply cost lives.  We are almost 100% certainly going to have to go into lockdown - let's just get on with it.
		
Click to expand...

I agree we should go into immediate lockdown . I am not disagreeing about that . I am disagreeing about the bit I put in bold, i.e.
*But I do not think the manner he and Hancock are currently speaking is actually conveying the dire gravity of our situation.*

But, yes , we now have to go into lockdown (because Boris's clear advice was ignored)
The fault is the public's


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Just when you thought that it could not get worse a friend at a local hospital has told me staff are being targeted (mugged) for their staff passes.

F&%$ing scum.



Click to expand...

Yeah I've heard this a few times but no actual news reports.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

This chart tells me that the individual in the family who triggers the 14 day isolation period for the rest of the family (mum) can come out of self-isolation after 7 days - and can go back to life as normal.

Likewise Child 1.  Contracts C-19 from mum and shows symptoms 2 days in - Child 1 can come out of isolation after Day 9.  So again within the 14 days.

The problem is that that is not how I have heard the isolation described - where there is a very distinct differentiation between me going into self-isolation lasting 7 days if I was by myself and 14days if I was part of a family.  The chart below does not make any such differentiation for Mum.  She is out of isolation after 7days which is same is if she was NOT in a family.

The NHS guidelines @Hobbit links to tells me...

if you have symptoms of coronavirus, you'll need to stay at home for 7 days
if you live with someone who has symptoms, you'll need to stay at home for 14 days from the day the first person in the home started having symptoms. 

This matches the chart but is not how I have understood what experts have said.  And it is that which confused me.



bobmac said:



View attachment 29452

Click to expand...


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## Dando (Mar 23, 2020)

Things have got so bad for me that in an act of shear desperation I asked my other half to marry me 🤦🏻‍♂️🤪


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah I've heard this a few times but no actual news reports.
		
Click to expand...

Haven't seen anything directly confirming it but it was mentioned by the Chief Exec in his daily Covid email and we were advised to take the pass off and put safely away out of site before leaving the site. Better safe than sorry I guess and given some of the things we've seen I wouldn't bet against it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			Things have got so bad for me that in an act of shear desperation I asked my other half to marry me 🤦🏻‍♂️🤪
		
Click to expand...

Didn't think you could get delirious with Covid-19. 

Assuming she said yes, congrats. I would raise a beer to you if I wasn't rationing my supply


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			Things have got so bad for me that in an act of shear desperation I asked my other half to marry me 🤦🏻‍♂️🤪
		
Click to expand...

Good thinking she won't be able to testify against you


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Don’t care whether you agree or not, we are all entitled to our own opinion.

Brought up with pets, owned pets etc, one of the worst things I’ve been through was holding my dog when she had to be put down, *but IMO, no pet should be put before a human.*

We’ve seen examples near the coast were dog owners have lost their lives trying to save their pet, absolutely stupid and a waste of a life.
		
Click to expand...


Too simplistic. Both are sentient beings. For me, depends who or what the human is.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			Things have got so bad for me that in an act of shear desperation I asked my other half to marry me 🤦🏻‍♂️🤪
		
Click to expand...

And the answer was...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Too simplistic. Both are sentient beings. For me, depends who or what the human is.
		
Click to expand...

No worries, all opinions are welcome.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			Things have got so bad for me that in an act of shear desperation I asked my other half to marry me 🤦🏻‍♂️🤪
		
Click to expand...

Good man hope She said yes 
Congrats to ye both


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## bladeplayer (Mar 23, 2020)

Well what say ye ?


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## User20204 (Mar 23, 2020)

The ba is burst.


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## Dando (Mar 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And the answer was... 

Click to expand...

She must really be struggling as she said yes!


----------



## hovis (Mar 23, 2020)

so can I play golf still? 😁


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Expected measures as far as I'm concerned 
Simple
Stay at home


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			so can I play golf still? 😁
		
Click to expand...

Only on your own and you can walk


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			She must really be struggling as she said yes!
		
Click to expand...

Congratulations to you both.

Did you know Boris was banning weddings when you proposed...


----------



## Stuart_C (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			She must really be struggling as she said yes!
		
Click to expand...

Congrats Dandy👏👏👏👏👏


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## Crazyface (Mar 23, 2020)

Well well well. Lock Down it is then!!!!!!


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Well well well. Lock Down it is then!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Not sure lock down is the right word.


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2020)

Stupid question alert, will Post Offices remain open?


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure lock down is the right word.
		
Click to expand...

Semi lock down.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Yeah I can still go for a run and walk the dog.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah I can still go for a run and walk the dog.
		
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Either or, not both


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 23, 2020)

He didn't mention schools so I assume they are staying open for the children of key workers. 

I need to have a chat with management tomorrow.


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2020)

my springer spaniel is going to be ruined after this lockdown


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			my springer spaniel is going to be ruined after this lockdown
		
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i just read that back and I mean exercised alot!!! nothing else!!!!


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			i just read that back and I mean exercised alot!!! nothing else!!!!
		
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Pahahahahahahahahahaha


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Either or, not both
		
Click to expand...

I make no mention of timings so my point stands.


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			my springer spaniel is going to be ruined after this lockdown
		
Click to expand...




hovis said:



			i just read that back and I mean exercised alot!!! nothing else!!!!
		
Click to expand...


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## Kellfire (Mar 23, 2020)

I’ve now decided I need to recuse myself from work, unpaid if need be. I am the carer for my partner who is halfway through a course of chemotherapy and I can’t put her at risk.


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2020)

Does that mean you cant go outside your house, so not even in your own garden?


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## adam6177 (Mar 23, 2020)

I guess that means golf clubs and driving ranges are now closed then.....knew I should have had a simulator at home.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’ve now decided I need to recuse myself from work, unpaid if need be. I am the carer for my partner who is halfway through a course of chemotherapy and I can’t put her at risk.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely the right thing to do, best wishes


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

*Guys and girls, the next few days and weeks will be difficult. There's some uncertainty until the rules become clearer to each and everyone of you. There'll be anxieties and fears within yourself, your family and friends. Tempers might rise a little as everyone feels those anxieties and fears. Hug your family, don't growl. Ask yourself why has someone barked before you bark back.*

*The choices in front of everyone are stark, uncomfortable and come with ongoing anxieties. Take a breath, think about who and where you can get the info from - there are answers out there. Err on the side of caution, and consider the impact of all your actions, even down to that little growl.*

*If things follow the path they have done here in Spain, and they pretty much have done so far, the rules and restrictions will grow. The reminder you receive from the Police might not be so gentle next week as it will be tomorrow.*

*Good luck - remember, birdies by Christmas!*


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I make no mention of timings so my point stands.
		
Click to expand...

So one day run next day dog


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## Beezerk (Mar 23, 2020)

DRW said:



			Does that mean you cant go outside your house, so not even in your own garden?
		
Click to expand...

Did you actually listen to the announcement?


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## Kellfire (Mar 23, 2020)

DRW said:



			Does that mean you cant go outside your house, so not even in your own garden?
		
Click to expand...

No that’s fine. Just don’t go into a public space.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			I guess that means golf clubs and driving ranges are now closed then.....knew I should have had a simulator at home.
		
Click to expand...

Glad I've got my home made net.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2020)

adam6177 said:



			I guess that means golf clubs and driving ranges are now closed then.....knew I should have had a simulator at home.
		
Click to expand...

Eagerly awaiting my club email, they’ve just cancelled guests, but not closed as of yet.

Announcement vague, golf is exercise and I’ve always happy practising on my own.....


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

I suspect every golf club manager, secretary, board, owner etc etc are drafting an email to their members or are fishing out one they drafted a few days ago.
I think any course that stays open from tomorrow is missing the point 
Is it essential for greenkeepers to go to work...No.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

Going to be quiet on the roads tomorrow, especially when I leave at 5am to start a 350 mile round trip 😳🚚


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Eagerly awaiting my club email, they’ve just cancelled guests, but not closed as of yet.

Announcement vague, golf is exercise and I’ve always happy practising on my own.....
		
Click to expand...

Back to the non essential travel argument


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			my springer spaniel is going to be ruined after this lockdown
		
Click to expand...

You are a bad man!

"Free the Springer one!"


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

Jeez
BBC news following Boris's broadcast ( excellently done, btw) had a reporter outside number 10!
Why is that necessary for her to be outside No.10?
Not good, beeb, not good.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Jeez
BBC news following Boris's broadcast ( excellently done, btw) had a reporter outside number 10!
Why is that necessary for her to be outside No.10?
Not good, beeb, not good.
		
Click to expand...

Never understood how they were on the essential workers list.


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## andycap (Mar 23, 2020)

Being self employed in construction  who decides if its essential i go to work , me from a point of needing to  keep an income , or the police deciding if a contract needs to be finished or not ?

Question answered , company has decided to cease all works until instructed that any works are deemed essential  by clients 
totally the right response in my view ,


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Back to the non essential travel argument
		
Click to expand...

Ive still got to work, the course is a 5/10 min diversion. If going prior to work or after in the morning. I don’t see it as an issue. Of course if the course closes then that’ll clear it up.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I suspect every golf club manager, secretary, board, owner etc etc are drafting an email to their members or are fishing out one they drafted a few days ago.
I think any course that stays open from tomorrow is missing the point
*Is it essential for greenkeepers to go to work...No*.
		
Click to expand...

that is a very good point.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Ive still got to work, the course is a 5/10 min diversion. If going prior to work or after in the morning. I don’t see it as an issue. Of course if the course closes then that’ll clear it up.
		
Click to expand...

You think it's essential that's fine, your call, who am I to judge.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Golf courses are not essential to keeping the country running 
It will be difficult to justify greenkeepers going to work, much easier to just staying at home.
We just need to sit it out for a few weeks.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I suspect every golf club manager, secretary, board, owner etc etc are drafting an email to their members or are fishing out one they drafted a few days ago.
I think any course that stays open from tomorrow is missing the point 
Is it essential for greenkeepers to go to work...No.
		
Click to expand...

Probably need to keep a degree of maintenance work.


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## pendodave (Mar 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			that is a very good point.
		
Click to expand...

A couple of ours live on the course. Working from home??


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Probably need to keep a degree of maintenance work.
		
Click to expand...

Ideally but the authorities could easily turn round and say "let it grow, cut it when this is over"
They then have to work for a week to get the course playable before we restart...
This is a very simple decision to make...


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Ideally but the authorities could easily turn round and say "let it grow, cut it when this is over"
They then have to work for a week to get the course playable before we restart...
This is a very simple decision to make...
		
Click to expand...

I’ve just contacted all the company owners I collect & deliver for, mainly manufacturers, and they are all staying open, what’s the difference between them working and greenkeepers?


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## bladeplayer (Mar 23, 2020)

One form of exercise.  Whos going to count 
Police have powers but do they have manpower?


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## GreiginFife (Mar 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Back to the non essential travel argument
		
Click to expand...

This is the bit I don't quite get, Travel itself doesn't spread a virus. If I get in the car myself, travel myself to the club, still on m own. Social distance by more than the recommended 2m and play a round myself. How am I more likely to cause an issue than if I sat at home alone. 

N.B, I can't play golf so it's an academic question.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			One form of exercise.  Whos going to count
Police have powers but do they have manpower?
		
Click to expand...

Marathon, should kill a few hours.


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## robinthehood (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Ideally but the authorities could easily turn round and say "let it grow, cut it when this is over"
They then have to work for a week to get the course playable before we restart...
This is a very simple decision to make...
		
Click to expand...

At my old place the head green keeper lived on site. You'd think that therell be support for clubs to keep up basic works , as they'll want to be able to get going asap once things get back to normal.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’ve just contacted all the company owners I collect & deliver for, mainly manufacturers, and they are all staying open, what’s the difference between them working and greenkeepers?
		
Click to expand...

It depends on what they do Robin.... manufacturing could be essential.
Chasing a ball around d a field isnt.


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Did you actually listen to the announcement? 

Click to expand...

Sure did, and all he said was 'Home', does that mean house or house & garden(if theres one).

Anyway think it covers garden as well, so not so bad I suppose, can do some more gardening, better than stuck in the house.


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2020)

the police here are going nutts.  they found this out by watching the TV.  they've just been told fines are £30 to £1000 for non compliance


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			This is the bit I don't quite get, Travel itself doesn't spread a virus. If I get in the car myself, travel myself to the club, still on m own. Social distance by more than the recommended 2m and play a round myself. How am I more likely to cause an issue than if I sat at home alone.

N.B, I can't play golf so it's an academic question.
		
Click to expand...

The convo Earlier Revolves around the chance of an accident which would then require human interaction (spread) or waste of resources (police, ambulance). My point was simply I have to be in the road to get to work as I’m classed as key worker. So 5 mins extra travel wouldn’t stop me. That being said, some valid points made about Greenkeepers working.


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It depends on what they do Robin.... manufacturing could be essential.
Chasing a ball around d a field isnt.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not referring to playing, we’re discussing the greenkeepers working. 

I’d say knowing the products that are involved with those companies they’re non-essential, but there was no mention of locking down businesses and industry!


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## AmandaJR (Mar 23, 2020)

Fish said:



			Marathon, should kill a few hours.
		
Click to expand...

Did you see that guy who ran a marathon on his balcony...


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## bladeplayer (Mar 23, 2020)

Fish said:



			Marathon, should kill a few hours.
		
Click to expand...

Days for me 😜


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			my springer spaniel is going to be ruined after this lockdown
		
Click to expand...


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m not referring to playing, we’re discussing the greenkeepers working.

I’d say knowing the products that are involved with those companies they’re non-essential, but there was no mention of locking down businesses and industry!
		
Click to expand...

Fair do's 
To be honest, I think every club will close, some may try to keep greenkeepers going - that'll be their decision.
But I doubt they'll want anyone playing.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Ideally but the authorities could easily turn round and say "let it grow, cut it when this is over"
They then have to work for a week to get the course playable before we restart...
This is a very simple decision to make...
		
Click to expand...

Hmm -  I think you'll find it's not that straightforward.  Tees, fairways, rough are all fairly easily rectified after a delay in maintenance. But if the greens aren't looked after than it's a much more difficult road back. Course managers are - or should be -  seriously worried about how they are going to be able to maintain the principal asset of their business.


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## USER1999 (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Technically no but practically yes, I live in town, no parks here, too hilly/rocky. Nearest woods are about 2.5 miles away, walking there would mean coming into contact with plenty people which I dont want. The roads are bad for walkers/cyclists - too narrow  so often no pavement.
		
Click to expand...

So why did you buy such an unfeasible pet? You might as well have got a horse, or an elephant.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			So why did you buy such an unfeasible pet? You might as well have got a horse, or an elephant.
		
Click to expand...

Verily did he say unto him, I may have wee'd a little with laughter.


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## Imurg (Mar 23, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Hmm -  I think you'll find it's not that straightforward.  Tees, fairways, rough are all fairly easily rectified after a delay in maintenance. But if the greens aren't looked after than it's a much more difficult road back. Course managers are - or should be -  seriously worried about how they are going to be able to maintain the principal asset of their business.
		
Click to expand...

Non essential businesses are shutting up shop all over the country 
Golf has become a non essential.
They'll just have to ride it out like everyone else.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The convo Earlier Revolves around the chance of an accident which would then require human interaction (spread) or waste of resources (police, ambulance). My point was simply I have to be in the road to get to work as I’m classed as key worker. So 5 mins extra travel wouldn’t stop me. That being said, some valid points made about Greenkeepers working.
		
Click to expand...

Am I suddenly more likely to have an accident due to Covid-19? 
That's proper exceptional thinking that is...


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## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Congratulations to you both.

Did you know Boris was banning weddings when you proposed... 

Click to expand...

I'd imagine he was counting on it!


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Am I suddenly more likely to have an accident due to Covid-19?
That's proper exceptional thinking that is...
		
Click to expand...

Not more likely due to covid, but the chances of having an accident in your car are certainly shorter if you dont get in it.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Never understood how they were on the essential workers list.
		
Click to expand...

Because if we didn't have a national broadcaster everyone would get their news from social media and golf forums?


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## Fade and Die (Mar 23, 2020)

andycap said:



			Being self employed in construction  who decides if its essential i go to work , me from a point of needing to  keep an income , or the police deciding if a contract needs to be finished or not ?

Question answered , company has decided to cease all works until instructed that any works are deemed essential  by clients
totally the right response in my view ,
		
Click to expand...

I’ve been text by two of our Electrical Wholesalers tonight saying they will be open as normal tomorrow. I will have to speak to the main contractors tomorrow to see if it’s business as usual, I think it probably will be until the client tells them to stop. My subbies are obviously keen to get in. All works are external lighting projects.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Not more likely due to covid, but the chances of having an accident in your car are certainly shorter if you dont get in it.
		
Click to expand...

You could take that view every day of the week. Where would we be then? 

Less likely to get liver disease if you don't drink. 
Less likely to get cancer if you just don't smoke. 
Less likely to get a STD if you don't go to the dogging club...


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Jeez
BBC news following Boris's broadcast ( excellently done, btw) had a reporter outside number 10!
Why is that necessary for her to be outside No.10?
Not good, beeb, not good.
		
Click to expand...


I'd imagine it's not just the BBC, all the news services would have someone there. Any reason why only the BBC?
Whilst it was anticipated they would do this, it was not certain they would


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 23, 2020)

I'll be in work tomorrow but I've told the staff to stay off for 3 weeks. We will continue to operate for as long as delivery drivers are still working. Companies across Europe, including Italy and Spain, are still functioning, they are still placing orders. We can operate and comply with the requirements still.

Back to green keepers, they can work and isolate, it should not be difficult. They don't need to keep courses pristine, just do the basics so the key asset of the business is maintained.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Am I suddenly more likely to have an accident due to Covid-19?
That's proper exceptional thinking that is...
		
Click to expand...

Pray you don't. The ambulance will be 2 hours or more before it arrives. It'll be busy elsewhere.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Our head greenkeeper's house is on the club grounds.  Maybe he can work from home.


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## woofers (Mar 23, 2020)

I thought it was non essential shops and the specific hospitality businesses, cafes, pubs, restaurantS, cinema etc.
If they choose to do so, can other business's such as plumbers, electricians, flooring contractors, cleaners etc carry on working?
What about hospital out patient appointments ?


----------



## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			So why did you buy such an unfeasible pet? You might as well have got a horse, or an elephant.
		
Click to expand...

sorry been a long day, not getting that, something lost in translation? It's a springer dog!

Is it not normal to drive to dog walk for a lot of people?


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Fish said:



			Marathon, should kill a few hours.
		
Click to expand...

And you


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because if we didn't have a national broadcaster everyone would get their news from social media and golf forums?
		
Click to expand...

Be as accurate these days.


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## larmen (Mar 23, 2020)

woofers said:



			If they choose to do so, can other business's such as plumbers, electricians, flooring contractors, cleaners etc carry on working
		
Click to expand...

Aren’t plumbers classed as key workers? Our nursery is open for children of key workers only and I know of one kid where the father is a plumber and the mother is working in fashion, so he must be the one qualifying the child. That would then probably extend to electricians as well.


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## USER1999 (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			sorry been a long day, not getting that, something lost in translation? It's a springer dog!

Is it not normal to drive to dog walk for a lot of people?
		
Click to expand...

No. You live in a flat, or have a small garden, get an indoor pet. I don't get buying the pet you want, if you don't have the space for it. It makes no sense.


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## fundy (Mar 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			Aren’t plumbers classed as key workers? Our nursery is open for children of key workers only and I know of one kid where the father is a plumber and the mother is working in fashion, so he must be the one qualifying the child. That would then probably extend to electricians as well.
		
Click to expand...


how difficult is it to apply some common sense

a plumber fixing a burst pipe, emergency
a plumber fitting a new bathroom, not an emergency


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			You could take that view every day of the week. Where would we be then?

Less likely to get liver disease if you don't drink.
Less likely to get cancer if you just don't smoke.
Less likely to get a STD if you don't go to the dogging club...
		
Click to expand...

So when the PM says no non essential travel you think it should be ignored, or are you suggesting that travelling to golf is essential.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Email just arrived, our course closed.


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Best up the numbers of midwives by Christmas, and the divorce lawyers...


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2020)

Robster59 said:




I'd imagine it's not just the BBC, all the news services would have someone there. Any reason why only the BBC?
Whilst it was anticipated they would do this, it was not certain they would


Click to expand...

1. It was the BBC I saw.How could I comment on others I didn't see - therefore not knowing if they were there even. If others were there then they needn't have been. Their channels can report on the broadcast without being anywhere near Downing Street.  

2. Whatever the P M was going to say, it isn't necessary for the TV channels to have reporters (commenting on him ) to physically be in Downing Street.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Best up the numbers of midwives by Christmas, and the divorce lawyers...
		
Click to expand...

I may move straight to murder


----------



## Andy (Mar 23, 2020)

andycap said:



			Being self employed in construction  who decides if its essential i go to work , me from a point of needing to  keep an income , or the police deciding if a contract needs to be finished or not ?

Question answered , company has decided to cease all works until instructed that any works are deemed essential  by clients 
totally the right response in my view ,
		
Click to expand...

Construction is definitely not essential and never will be.


----------



## IainP (Mar 23, 2020)

There are a load of stats around, here's another one for those who haven't already seen it

It took:

*67 days* from the first reported case of coronavirus to reach the first 100,000 cases
*11 days* for the second 100,000 cases
Just *four days* for the third 100,000 cases


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## Robster59 (Mar 23, 2020)

*"From this evening people must stay at home except for shopping for basic necessities, daily exercise, any medical need and travelling to and from essential work."*
I may be wrong but I see "daily exercise" as something you can do on foot from your own house.  I am happy to see how the various golf unions to interpret this but it may be a discussion some may have with the authorities if you get stopped and you tell them you're going for a game of golf.  If I'm being brutally honest I would say it's not essential. 

One thing the PM did say was try to have your groceries delivered to your home.  Certainly.  How!?  We tried that yesterday and NONE of the food retailers were carrying out, or taking on, extra deliveries to our area.  They just don't have the infrastructure in place.  It's not their fault.  Till now, something like 11% of the population purchased their groceries online.  We didn't, we prefer to look at what we buy.  Now we can't get home deliveries so I will have to go out and get the shopping, whether I like it or not.


----------



## Dando (Mar 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because if we didn't have a national broadcaster everyone would get their news from social media and golf forums?
		
Click to expand...

Or their barbers


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			the police here are going nutts.  they found this out by watching the TV.  they've just been told fines are £30 to £1000 for non compliance
		
Click to expand...

Head cop of the Met would have been at the Cobra meeting


----------



## Rlburnside (Mar 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			Aren’t plumbers classed as key workers? Our nursery is open for children of key workers only and I know of one kid where the father is a plumber and the mother is working in fashion, so he must be the one qualifying the child. That would then probably extend to electricians as well.
		
Click to expand...

That shouldn’t be the case if one partner is a key worker and the other is not then then the non key worker must stay home to look after child


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			1. It was the BBC I saw.How could I comment on others I didn't see - therefore not knowing if they were there even. If others were there then they needn't have been. Their channels can report on the broadcast without being anywhere near Downing Street. 

2. Whatever the P M was going to say, it isn't necessary for the TV channels to have reporters (commenting on him ) to physically be in Downing Street.
		
Click to expand...

I watched it on Sky News - HID was watching some Spanish thing... yes there was a Sky reporter there.


----------



## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			No. You live in a flat, or have a small garden, get an indoor pet. I don't get buying the pet you want, if you don't have the space for it. It makes no sense.
		
Click to expand...

Have a reasonable sized garden and used to work in forestry which was a good occupation to have a dog as you are on site a lot. Also live in Argyll with a lot of space for dog walking. I dont think you need own that space to own a dog.
By your reckoning hardly anyone in UK would own a dog.
Taking a dog out is also good for the owner - exercise and fresh air. Unlike bloomin cats which are fairly pointless ....................(3 of which we also have)


----------



## USER1999 (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Have a reasonable sized garden and used to work in forestry which was a good occupation to have a dog as you are on site a lot. Also live in Argyll with a lot of space for dog walking. I dont think you need own that space to own a dog.
By your reckoning hardly anyone in UK would own a dog.
Taking a dog out is also good for the owner - exercise and fresh air. Unlike bloomin cats which are fairly pointless ....................(3 of which we also have)

Click to expand...

I have two cats, but despite having a decent garden, they are now indoor cats. Mainly due to one of them having a desire to play with traffic, that lead to an 8k vet bill. I have no idea what cats are for, especially as I am allergic to them for 3 months of the year. Lock down is fun. Sniff.


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## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I have two cats, but despite having a decent garden, they are now indoor cats. Mainly due to one of them having a desire to play with traffic, that lead to an 8k vet bill. I have no idea what cats are for, especially as I am allergic to them for 3 months of the year. Lock down is fun. Sniff.
		
Click to expand...

£8k, you must be fond of it! Flippin heck.

Has anyone answered the earlier query about post office being open as usual? Luckily for us one branch is inside tesco so legit to go. Have eBay crap to post.


----------



## fundy (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			£8k, you must be fond of it! Flippin heck.

Has anyone answered the earlier query about post office being open as usual? Luckily for us one branch is inside tesco so legit to go. Have eBay crap to post.
		
Click to expand...

posting ebay crap, sounds essential lol


----------



## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Fair do's
To be honest, I think every club will close, some may try to keep greenkeepers going - that'll be their decision.
But I doubt they'll want anyone playing.
		
Click to expand...

I’ve not mentioned playing! You were discussing greenkeeoers and people keep using the term essential workers which hasn't been said! 

If you can’t work at home, you can go to work, he hasn’t locked down businesses and industry, he’s targeted public visiting businesses as in the retail sector and leisure industry, so I expect all courses to close. 

Here’s some breakdown info.


----------



## User62651 (Mar 23, 2020)




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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 23, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Cant see that. Still asks to book delivery slot.

None available like all the others 😒
		
Click to expand...

Maybe just in our area.


----------



## backwoodsman (Mar 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Non essential businesses are shutting up shop all over the country 
Golf has become a non essential.
They'll just have to ride it out like everyone else.
		
Click to expand...

I have no qualms about closing  for the duration - ie like all other non essential businesses. But golf courses need to be maintained while they are closed - otherwise the business will have no viable asset with which they can  re-open in due course. I dont believe the current government edict is designed to say "close your business - and by the way, throw your assets down the pan as well.


----------



## Dando (Mar 23, 2020)

I assume dogging is banned - asking for a friend


----------



## drdel (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			I assume dogging is banned - asking for a friend
		
Click to expand...

Essential travel and exercise twice a day 👍👍


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Best up the numbers of midwives by Christmas, and the divorce lawyers...
		
Click to expand...

That's me 10 days into isolation, the wife said I was blinking my eyelids too loud . 
I might have posted that before, I'm getting stir crazy


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Robster59 said:



*"From this evening people must stay at home except for shopping for basic necessities, daily exercise, any medical need and travelling to and from essential work."*
I may be wrong but I see "daily exercise" as something you can do on foot from your own house.  I am happy to see how the various golf unions to interpret this but it may be a discussion some may have with the authorities if you get stopped and you tell them you're going for a game of golf.  If I'm being brutally honest I would say it's not essential.

One thing the PM did say was try to have your groceries delivered to your home.  Certainly.  How!?  We tried that yesterday and NONE of the food retailers were carrying out, or taking on, extra deliveries to our area.  They just don't have the infrastructure in place.  It's not their fault.  Till now, something like 11% of the population purchased their groceries online.  We didn't, we prefer to look at what we buy.  Now we can't get home deliveries so I will have to go out and get the shopping, whether I like it or not.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest to a couple of taxi drivers on here to approach some supermarkets re deliveries.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			One form of exercise.  Whos going to count 
Police have powers but do they have manpower?
		
Click to expand...

Havnt seen a copper for months by mine.
On news at ten police saying they will lose 40% of officers to the virus.
So 0- 40% = ?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 23, 2020)

The more I read about it the greater the feeling I have is DomCum/Boris is still 'winging it'...


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## Reemul (Mar 23, 2020)

England Golf COVID-19 update
View in browser​



*Golf courses must close*
England Golf guidance​
​
Following on from the Prime Minister’s statement tonight (23 March), golf clubs and golf courses in England must now close.

It is England Golf’s position that this deeply regrettable, but highly necessary and responsible course of action must be implemented with immediate effect and be maintained until further notice.

The government has identified an urgent need to introduce new restrictions on public life and on non-essential businesses opening their doors.

This has been done to limit the spread of the coronavirus and relieve the growing pressure on our National Health Service.

*Keeping golf courses open is simply no longer compatible with the updated policy of government which is designed to save lives in a time of national emergency. *

The health and wellbeing of the nation is the only consideration that matters at this moment in our history.

These are incredibly testing times for the country. The golf industry cannot be shielded from the economic and social ramifications caused by this temporary shutdown of normal life.

We would like to assure the golfing community that England Golf staff will continue to work remotely with all affiliated golfers, clubs and counties to try and minimise the damage caused by this suspension of regular golf club life.

We will continue to signpost clubs and counties to the latest government advice and schemes designed to help the economy cope with the disruption caused by coronavirus.​
​


*Follow us*​
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*Contact us*



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​
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Unsubscribe from emails​


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Best up the numbers of midwives by Christmas, and the divorce lawyers...
		
Click to expand...

If your two metres apart you must be very good to get the missus pregnant.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			£8k, you must be fond of it! Flippin heck.

Has anyone answered the earlier query about post office being open as usual? Luckily for us one branch is inside tesco so legit to go. Have eBay crap to post.
		
Click to expand...

The Welsh guy said post offices will be open , so imagine U.K. wide .


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## IanM (Mar 23, 2020)

Course closed email arrived promptly.... you can’t argue with that.  Practice net coming out of the garage tomorrow!  

Living in a small village I am sure two walks a day with the dog won’t upset the Home Office, but I bet it won’t be long before idiots kick off....


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## Fish (Mar 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			I assume dogging is banned - asking for a friend
		
Click to expand...

just no threesomes 😳


----------



## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

I'd be interested in hearing how this is meant to impact on separated parents. Is it essential to pick kids up for a weekend or week to help the other parent. 

For me I'd hate the thought of not seeing my kids, but there will be many wondering are they allowed to travel to get them. My situation made more awkward by the ex being in 2 of the at risk categories so does it jeopardise her health to have the kids in 2 separate houses.. I can see this getting messy for a few families..


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## Wolf (Mar 23, 2020)

Fish said:



			just no threesomes 😳
		
Click to expand...

What if they're twins do they cancel each other out as they are a DNA match 🤔


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## Paperboy (Mar 23, 2020)

Three weeks rest for some off our greens will be a godsend. Being on chalk get a lot of traffic and with all the rain they've not done enough to protect them


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

I think the green keepers will still be able to work.
They are very isolated on the course.
With no golfers they will get more done ,materials allowing.
It’s only places that service the public as far as I can see.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 23, 2020)

2 pictures below from Government website, first one below at 9:04, second one above at 10:30. Utter confusion and chaos over who should and shouldn’t go to work:


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2020)

blimey, I need a haircut now.  I'm gonna look like a right hobo in 3 weeks


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			blimey, I need a haircut now.  I'm gonna look like a right hobo in 3 weeks
		
Click to expand...

Shave it all off now .
Saving on shampoo
Three weeks to grow it back before you see anyone.


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## larmen (Mar 23, 2020)

hovis said:



			blimey, I need a haircut now.  I'm gonna look like a right hobo in 3 weeks
		
Click to expand...

I would suggest going to the shop to get some clippers but they have closed now. Saying that, pet shop are still open ... ;-)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			1. It was the BBC I saw.How could I comment on others I didn't see - therefore not knowing if they were there even. If others were there then they needn't have been. Their channels can report on the broadcast without being anywhere near Downing Street.

2. Whatever the P M was going to say, it isn't necessary for the TV channels to have reporters (commenting on him ) to physically be in Downing Street.
		
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Bit of a blow if the PM came out of #10 to take questions from journalists and the rest of the gathered media though - what with Sky reporter standing there and all that...


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			I would suggest going to the shop to get some clippers but they have closed now. Saying that, pet shop are still open ... ;-)
		
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Can you buy an electrical item from Tesco / Sainsburys if so get some there


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit of a blow if the PM came out of #10 to take questions from journalists and the rest of the gathered media though.
		
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No gatherings so imagine that will be the norm now.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 29461
2 pictures below from Government website, first one below at 9:04, second one above at 10:30. Utter confusion and chaos over who should and shouldn’t go to work:
View attachment 29460

Click to expand...

Utter Confusion and Chaos!  Come on, get a grip. Someone modified the notice a little, its hardly the end of days.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Utter Confusion and Chaos!  Come on, get a grip. Someone modified the notice a little, its hardly the end of days.
		
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Suggest you check the media outlets, places like Sports Direct, WH Smith, Building sites all expecting people to work, despite boris saying essential work only, self employed are confused.

For those whose livelihoods are at risk it’s not good! They risk being made redundant or going out of business.

Fully supportive of boris, but things like this need clarifying and can’t simply be dismissed as simply modified a little. 🤡


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Suggest you check the media outlets, places like *Sports Direct,* WH Smith, Building sites all expecting people to work, despite boris saying essential work only, self employed are confused.

For those whose livelihoods are at risk it’s not good! They risk being made redundant or going out of business.

Fully supportive of boris, but things like this need clarifying and can’t simply be dismissed as simply modified a little. 🤡
		
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth that bit in bold. Mrs Wolf is a manager at one of Sports Directs gyms, despite the gym being closed since Friday all permanent staff were at work today and are still expected to be at work tomorrow. She got the text from her area manager advising them of this within minutes of the announcement.  They literally have nothing to do but are expected to be there 9am-5pm regardless.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Suggest you check the media outlets, places like Sports Direct, WH Smith, Building sites all expecting people to work, despite boris saying essential work only, self employed are confused.

For those whose livelihoods are at risk it’s not good! They risk being made redundant or going out of business.

Fully supportive of boris, but things like this need clarifying and can’t simply be dismissed as simply modified a little. 🤡
		
Click to expand...

I am sure there will be more clarification tomorrow.  They have said shops must close except certain key outlets, they have also explained that pubs, clubs etc must close.  All will become clear but give them a little time to get the information out.  Dont panic! 🙄


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Today's thought of the day.

The Virus does not move,
People move it.
We stop moving,
The Virus stops moving.
The virus dies.
It's as simple as that


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'd be interested in hearing how this is meant to impact on separated parents. Is it essential to pick kids up for a weekend or week to help the other parent. 

For me I'd hate the thought of not seeing my kids, but there will be many wondering are they allowed to travel to get them. My situation made more awkward by the ex being in 2 of the at risk categories so does it jeopardise her health to have the kids in 2 separate houses.. I can see this getting messy for a
 When me and missis T get back we know we have kids for a minimum 3 weeks. Both parents.coppers. we have to tell them. If there with is theres no visits. Gonna really upset mum.
		
Click to expand...


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## Smiffy (Mar 24, 2020)

Our place is closing for 3 weeks from tomorrow evening.


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## Slab (Mar 24, 2020)

Lets say you sleep for 8 hours
Lets say you work for 8 hours (in some non-essential area but your company hasn't closed because its not mandated)
Lets say you commute for 2 hours
Lets say you exercise/walk the dug for an hour
Lets say you shop for 2 hours

So your 'lockdown' lasts for 4 hours a day.... that's brutal guys, stay strong and you'll have it beat in no time!    

_#UKdoespiecemeallockdown_


----------



## backwoodsman (Mar 24, 2020)

Slab said:



			Lets say you sleep for 8 hours
Lets say you work for 8 hours (in some non-essential area but your company hasn't closed because its not mandated)
Lets say you commute for 2 hours
Lets say you exercise/walk the dug for an hour
Lets say you shop for 2 hours

So your 'lockdown' lasts for 4 hours a day.... that's brutal guys, stay strong and you'll have it beat in no time!    

_#UKdoespiecemeallockdown_

Click to expand...

Hmm.  You've only been in lock down for 3 days now & seems your brain has already turned to mush? 😀  What hope for the rest of us?

(Or do you have different length days over there? 😀)


----------



## Slab (Mar 24, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Hmm.  You've only been in lock down for 3 days now & seems your brain has already turned to mush? 😀  What hope for the rest of us?

(Or do you have different length days over there? 😀)
		
Click to expand...

I just work harder on lockdown


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2020)

Got to keep some kind of routine for this keep the house moving.

Days of non work for me are normal until 9am when we would normally go out

Instead me the wife and the daughter take the dog for a small slow walk round the block

Come home. Crafts for little lady. Bit of lunch for her. Nap time 

After nap she gets 30 mins in garden 

Dinner bath bed 

Netflix for us .

This is going to be a long few months however I'm grateful it's only boredham we are dealing with


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 24, 2020)

HID works in a school so classed as a key worked and I work in the NHS. HID gives me a lift to work, then drives straight to her place of work. Assuming this is still permitted under the new guidelines as we have both been told to work at the place of work going forward. Not sure what happens if we get stopped. I am considering asking for a letter from my ICU consultant and the ICU Lead nurse to say my presence is currently required and getting HID to get one from the head teacher as well. Other than that for us it's business as usual and go home after the working day and stay inside until we need to go to work again. One shopping trip per week and after that inside and staying so


----------



## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Today's thought of the day.

The Virus does not move,
People move it.
We stop moving,
The Virus stops moving.
The virus dies.
It's as simple as that
		
Click to expand...

Says the man continuing to move round the planet on holiday...


----------



## Crazyface (Mar 24, 2020)

Off to clean and sort me shed out. I've got a moss getter outter in there somewhere. Me lawns gonna be nice this year.


----------



## Crazyface (Mar 24, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			Our place is closing for 3 weeks from tomorrow evening.
		
Click to expand...

For now. You'll be shut a lot longer than that.  3 weeks is just the start.


----------



## Crazyface (Mar 24, 2020)

And all this just as the weather turns.


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## Captainron (Mar 24, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID works in a school so classed as a key worked and I work in the NHS. HID gives me a lift to work, then drives straight to her place of work. Assuming this is still permitted under the new guidelines as we have both been told to work at the place of work going forward. Not sure what happens if we get stopped. I am considering asking for a letter from my ICU consultant and the ICU Lead nurse to say my presence is currently required and getting HID to get one from the head teacher as well. Other than that for us it's business as usual and go home after the working day and stay inside until we need to go to work again. One shopping trip per week and after that inside and staying so
		
Click to expand...

I’m sure your work badges will suffice as evidence of the need to travel and both will have your pictures on them so identity will be established


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2020)

HID said the school term ends in 2 weeks and then she is going off on holiday and I have to sort out the child care ... ! That’s after 1 day of home schooling!!


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID works in a school so classed as a key worked and I work in the NHS. HID gives me a lift to work, then drives straight to her place of work. Assuming this is still permitted under the new guidelines as we have both been told to work at the place of work going forward. Not sure what happens if we get stopped. I am considering asking for a letter from my ICU consultant and the ICU Lead nurse to say my presence is currently required and getting HID to get one from the head teacher as well. Other than that for us it's business as usual and go home after the working day and stay inside until we need to go to work again. One shopping trip per week and after that inside and staying so
		
Click to expand...

Did you guys get a letter for schools? Our MD sent out an email for all staff to show schools to say we are key workers 

Printed off and in car .. staff pass always in my bag aswell


----------



## Captainron (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Today's thought of the day.

The Virus does not move,
People move it.
We stop moving,
The Virus stops moving.
The virus dies.
It's as simple as that
		
Click to expand...

More holidays than Craig Doyle....


----------



## PieMan (Mar 24, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID works in a school so classed as a key worked and I work in the NHS. HID gives me a lift to work, then drives straight to her place of work. Assuming this is still permitted under the new guidelines as we have both been told to work at the place of work going forward. Not sure what happens if we get stopped. I am considering asking for a letter from my ICU consultant and the ICU Lead nurse to say my presence is currently required and getting HID to get one from the head teacher as well. Other than that for us it's business as usual and go home after the working day and stay inside until we need to go to work again. One shopping trip per week and after that inside and staying so
		
Click to expand...

Homer - I think your ICU Consultant and ICU Lead Nurse probably have more important things to worry about at the moment!😉

As CR said, IF you were to be stopped by the police (and fair play if you were - they'd be doing their job) your work IDs will be fine.


----------



## bobmac (Mar 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			There are a load of stats around, here's another one for those who haven't already seen it

It took:

*67 days* from the first reported case of coronavirus to reach the first 100,000 cases
*11 days* for the second 100,000 cases
Just *four days* for the third 100,000 cases


Click to expand...

More numbers for you...........
Number of virus deaths in the UK for the last 7 days
17th.........16
18th .........33
19th..........40
20th..........33
21st...........56
22nd..........48
23rd...........54


----------



## bobmac (Mar 24, 2020)

I wonder how long it will be before we see Kay Burley streaming the news from her home in her Pjs


----------



## Pin-seeker (Mar 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Says the man continuing to move round the planet on holiday... 

Click to expand...

Surely he’s on the wind up??
No one can be that stupid to post that after “moving” to Mexico and back


----------



## Stuart_C (Mar 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I wonder how long it will be before we see Kay Burley streaming the news from her home in her Pjs  

Click to expand...

Hopefully not too long 😉


----------



## Jamesbrown (Mar 24, 2020)

Pin-seeker said:



			Surely he’s on the wind up??
No one can be that stupid to post that after “moving” to Mexico and back
		
Click to expand...

I think his post hinted that he’s staying in Mexico rather than coming back. Can’t fault him. Siesta!


----------



## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

Sounds like a package for the self-employed is coming.
Similar to the paye package but based on last 3 year's tax returns.


----------



## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Today's thought of the day.

The Virus does not move,
People move it.
We stop moving,
The Virus stops moving.
The virus dies.
It's as simple as that
		
Click to expand...




Tashyboy said:



			When me and missis T get back we know we have kids for a minimum 3 weeks. Both parents.coppers. we have to tell them. If there with is theres no visits. Gonna really upset mum.
		
Click to expand...

Have you been on the crack pipe or are you just trying to look like a fool.

These 2 quotes combined make you look ridiculous, you knew all the issues yet you jetted off to Mexico, will have to fly on a confined aircraft with yourself or others being potential carriers yet you have the cheek to tell people we need to stop moving about to prevent the virus moving. On top of all that potential infection you're exposed to your planning on flying back whether that's via plane or on your magical pegasus High horse and have your grandchildren for 3 weeks, exposing them to the risk of whatever you may have brought back with you.

Your daughter is a copper therefore a key worker and as such they can remain at school or the alternative is for them to be with their other parent if as you say both are coppers then their superior can arrange alternate shift patterns.

You should be getting back to the UK and quarantine yourselves as is expected of anyone that's been on international travel. I literally cannot believe you've posted those 2 things you're being either unbelievably selfish or stupid, perhaps even both. Stop telling people what we should do when you do the opposite and don't put your grandchildren at risk man for god sake.


----------



## DaveR (Mar 24, 2020)

fundy said:



			posting ebay crap, sounds essential lol
		
Click to expand...

He might have stockpiled bog rolls and now selling them for a huge profit


----------



## pendodave (Mar 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			More numbers for you...........
Number of virus deaths in the UK for the last 7 days
17th.........16
18th .........33
19th..........40
20th..........33
21st...........56
22nd..........48
23rd...........54
		
Click to expand...

Hey... Over the last three days that's an increase of 0.035% on normal UK deaths (assuming they wouldn't have died anyway, which some would)...
Sadly, I suspect this won't age well, but at some point fairly soon this issue will be raised by more important people than me.


----------



## DRW (Mar 24, 2020)

Anyone in construction, continue as you were for work purposes :-

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1242210351007096836

Cant say I would quite agree with the sweeping nature.


----------



## DaveR (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			What if they're twins do they cancel each other out as they are a DNA match 🤔
		
Click to expand...

I think the correct response to that is "In your dreams mate"


----------



## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

DaveR said:



			I think the correct response to that is "In your dreams mate" 

Click to expand...

In these crazy times of being locked down we all need a dream 😂


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 24, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Off to clean and sort me shed out. I've got a moss getter outter in there somewhere. Me lawns gonna be nice this year.
		
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Scarifier I did mine last year it looked like a balding baldy guy for months.
Just don’t go to low with your tines.


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## Dando (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			In these crazy times of being locked down we all need a dream 😂
		
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But those dreams means using valuable toilet roll 😂🤣


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Sounds like a package for the self-employed is coming.
Similar to the paye package but based on last 3 year's tax returns.
		
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Some will be in for a shock then .
Most of the self employed lads I know are always bragging how much tax their accountant is saving them.
Or is that just BS?


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2020)

News coming out of Madrid this morning doesn't make for good reading.

Troops entered a care home last night amid concerns that there didn't seem much activity there. It appeared staff hadn't been into work for several days. A number of residents were found dead in their beds, and dead sat in the chairs in the communal area.

Several firms of undertakers have stopped collecting bodies. Lack of staff willing to do it, and a lack of PPE. Some residents are reporting that they have dead relatives at home for more than 24 hours - thank god it isn't the height of summer.

The ice rink is being used as a morgue.


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			News coming out of Madrid this morning doesn't make for good reading.

Troops entered a care home last night amid concerns that there didn't seem much activity there. It appeared staff hadn't been into work for several days. A number of residents were found dead in their beds, and dead sat in the chairs in the communal area.

Several firms of undertakers have stopped collecting bodies. Lack of staff willing to do it, and a lack of PPE. Some residents are reporting that they have dead relatives at home for more than 24 hours - thank god it isn't the height of summer.

The ice rink is being used as a morgue.
		
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That's Brutal news can't imagine the torment suffered by those that passed away in those circumstances or that of the families.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Have you been on the crack pipe or are you just trying to look like a fool...

*...You should be getting back to the UK and quarantine yourselves *as is expected of anyone that's been on international travel. I literally cannot believe you've posted those 2 things you're being either unbelievably selfish or stupid, perhaps even both. Stop telling people what we should do when you do the opposite and don't put your grandchildren at risk man for god sake.
		
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Preferably somewhere without internet access? 

(Apologies for the cut down quote but the relevant bit disappeared without).


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## Lazkir (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Sounds like a package for the self-employed is coming.
Similar to the paye package but based on last 3 year's tax returns.
		
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Where did you find this out? I can't get through to the helpline atm


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

Is collecting the wife's car from the garage after getting its MOT an essential journey


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Is collecting the wife's car from the garage after getting its MOT an essential journey 

Click to expand...

Can you walk to the MOT centre? If so, you could claim it's your daily exercise. Then get some shopping on your way home and it's your allowed trip to the shops.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Bit of a blow if the PM came out of #10 to take questions from journalists and the rest of the gathered media though - what with Sky reporter standing there and all that...
		
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Come on. The big media know if and when the P M is going to come outside to make a speech or announcement.
In this instance they knew it was a Ministerial broadcast- a statement with no questions. Period.
No way was Boris coming out of No 10 .🙄


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can you walk to the MOT centre? If so, you could claim it's your daily exercise. Then get some shopping on your way home and it's your allowed trip to the shops.
		
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About 6 miles by road/ motorway, not sure how far it would be walking avoiding motorways.


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## 2blue (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:
Today's thought of the day.

The Virus does not move,
People move it.
We stop moving,
The Virus stops moving.
The virus dies.
It's as simple as that
Tashyboy said:
When me and missis T get back we know we have kids for a minimum 3 weeks. Both parents.coppers. we have to tell them. If there with is theres no visits. Gonna really upset mum.
Have you been on the crack pipe or are you just trying to look like a fool.
		
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			These 2 quotes combined make you look ridiculous, you knew all the issues yet you jetted off to Mexico, will have to fly on a confined aircraft with yourself or others being potential carriers yet you have the cheek to tell people we need to stop moving about to prevent the virus moving. On top of all that potential infection you're exposed to your planning on flying back whether that's via plane or on your magical pegasus High horse and have your grandchildren for 3 weeks, exposing them to the risk of whatever you may have brought back with you.

Your daughter is a copper therefore a key worker and as such they can remain at school or the alternative is for them to be with their other parent if as you say both are coppers then their superior can arrange alternate shift patterns.

You should be getting back to the UK and quarantine yourselves as is expected of anyone that's been on international travel. I literally cannot believe you've posted those 2 things you're being either unbelievably selfish or stupid, perhaps even both. Stop telling people what we should do when you do the opposite and don't put your grandchildren at risk man for god sake.
		
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Tashy boy.....  I did try & tell you to STOP DIGGING those holes for yourself though I'm sure you'll have got that advice quite some time ago. 

Time for you to 'self isolate' for everybody's sake.....  unbelievable.


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## Slime (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Today's thought of the day.

The Virus does not move,
People move it.
We stop moving,
The Virus stops moving.
The virus dies.
It's as simple as that
		
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That is a good thought, if only it were that simple, but somewhat ironic coming from our resident globe trotter!
There are times when it's best to stay silent.


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## FAB90 (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Is collecting the wife's car from the garage after getting its MOT an essential journey 

Click to expand...

I'm collecting my partner's car after its MOT today! We both work in schools so need to get to work so it's essential to have transport and as garages are staying open they must be expecting people to collect there cars!


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## drdel (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf - Gove reckons it is OK for children to visit a separated parent.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm waiting for the first mass civil liberties protest march in London.   Then we can round them all up at the same time.


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			Wolf - Gove reckons it is OK for children to visit a separated parent.
		
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Just seen that, will be advising the ex of that so there's no confusion.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

FAB90 said:



			I'm collecting my partner's car after its MOT today! We both work in schools so need to get to work so it's essential to have transport and as garages are staying open they must be expecting people to collect there cars!
		
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Fancy picking my wife's up from Audi Blantyre


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## FAB90 (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Fancy picking my wife's up from Audi Blantyre 

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If she could do without it I would just say to leave it but needs must! Being a main dealer would they not maybe offer to drop it off to you?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Correct measures put in place by the government - though I'd like them to have gone further and with more specifics.  So for instance we can go out to exercise once a day.  Just say that that exercise *must *be no longer than (say) of one hour duration.

And I use the word *must *deliberately.  I really want statements made by government ministers to be yet firmer than they are.  And for me that must mean dropping the word '_should_ ' in respect of such as '_Unless ... you should stay at home', _when in fact we must be being told '_Unless ... you *MUST *stay at home'.  _I was listening to a minister this morning and whilst I get the incredibly difficult situation that the government is trying to manage, he used the word 'should' about 6 times in two sentences.  In fact what he was telling us is not that we _should _do X, Y and Z - but that we *must *do X, Y and Z.

Because for as long as someone can think - 'well the government is only saying that we _should _do something, then maybe they are saying that we still have some choice as to whether we do it or not'.  Yes - it's just language - and the British mindset is to push back against being told by someone in authority that we MUST do something - but I do think that it's important given where we are today.

I suspect (hope) that things will get tightened up in today or tomorrow.  And let's get clarity on the government compensation to the self-employed and sole-trader for unavoidable loss of work due to government edict.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Sounds like a package for the self-employed is coming.
Similar to the paye package but based on last 3 year's tax returns.
		
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What if you haven't made a tax return yet?  I must get my son to do his 2018/2019 tax return (it's complicated and yes he is late but HMRC know) - it'll be his first.  But we'll find a way.


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

There's a saying...
Dont worry about things you can't control. You can't control them
Worry about things you can control.
Like what you and your family do...
Others are being paid to control those you can't.


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What if you haven't made a tax return yet?
		
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I dont know
I'm not part of the team putting the plan together.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What if you haven't made a tax return yet?
		
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The govt have to have figures to work from or people will just make up numbers. It is going to be tough for new start ups, they may just have to take the basic if they have no verifiable figures. Does your lad have even a years worth of accounts or does he not have anything?


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Correct measures put in place by the government - though I'd like them to have gone further and with more specifics.  So for instance we can go out to exercise once a day.  Just say that that exercise *must *be no longer than (say) of one hour duration.

And I use the word *must *deliberately.  I really want statements made by government ministers to be yet firmer than they are.  And for me that must mean dropping the word '_should_ ' in respect of such as '_Unless ... you should stay at home', _when in fact we must be being told '_Unless ... you *MUST *stay at home'.  _I was listening to a minister this morning and whilst I get the incredibly difficult situation that the government is trying to manage, he used the word 'should' about 6 times in two sentences.  In fact what he was telling us is not that we _should _do X, Y and Z - but that we *must *do X, Y and Z.

Because for as long as someone can think - 'well the government is only saying that we _should _do something, then maybe they are saying that we still have some choice as to whether we do it or not'.  Yes - it's just language - and the British mindset is to push back against being told by someone in authority that we MUST do something - but I do think that it's important given where we are today.

I suspect (hope) that things will get tightened up in today or tomorrow.  And let's get clarity on the government compensation to the self-employed and sole-trader for unavoidable loss of work due to government edict.
		
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Rather than reverting to type and whining about the government why don't you use your common sense instead. They've given you all the info you need so you can govern yourself in following the correct steps.  You're an intelligent man so you know how much exercise you feel you need each day and you know to keep the relevant distances and what the criteria is in place for travel so just follow the advice.

As for self employed etc they are working it out and when they know the answer so will the rest of us.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2020)

__ https://www.facebook.com/540806539/posts/10156686840271540


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## DRW (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What if you haven't made a tax return yet?  I must get my son to do his 2018/2019 tax return (it's complicated and yes he is late but HMRC know) - it'll be his first.  But we'll find a way.
		
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Complete the tax returns, saves on fines, reminder letters, assessments and worry about it not being done. And assuming something is brought in, then he will be able to claim. Stop wasting time posting on here and get it done on his behalf, would be my best advice.

If you need some help give me a shout.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 24, 2020)

I’m now living in the spare Room. 
As I still have to work, the only way my girls would have caught it was from me. So am steering clear of em.


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## Beezerk (Mar 24, 2020)

On standby today as they didn't have a job for me in the area. I've had loads of emails pinging in, two lads have been turned away by customers this morning as they are closing, other customers closing later today.
Looks like the garden will be getting a good fettling at this rate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The govt have to have figures to work from or people will just make up numbers. It is going to be tough for new start ups, they may just have to take the basic if they have no verifiable figures. Does your lad have even a years worth of accounts or does he not have anything?
		
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Nothing.  He didn't really understand (or probably he didn't _want _to understand in truth) that even although he was earning diddly-squat he still had to do a tax return.  He only registered as sole-trader in February - he started work on a sole-trader basis April 2018. He has another 6 weeks or so to get his tax return for 2018/19 done (3months is given following registration to get first one done).  I must sit with him sometime today or this evening to get it done.  Might be to late.  

That said he can provide evidence from his bank account of his last X months income as a sole-trader as it comes solely from two event management companies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Rather than reverting to type and whining about the government why don't you use your common sense instead. They've given you all the info you need so you can govern yourself in following the correct steps.  You're an intelligent man so you know how much exercise you feel you need each day and you know to keep the relevant distances and what the criteria is in place for travel so just follow the advice.

As for self employed etc they wre working it out and when they know the answer so will the rest of us.
		
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I am simply asking that the government uses stronger language about what they require of us - absolutely nothing more.  I am also simply asking for more detail - it is clearly desperately required but many - though I'm clear on what I must and must not do.

That you see my hopes and wishes of the government through a political prism is your issue not mine.

Just heard Sadiq Khan say that we MUST stay at home - that's all the ministers need to say.  Close down the wriggle room many seem to look to exploit for their selfish reasons.  

I get it 100% - it appears that many do not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

DRW said:



			Complete the tax returns, saves on fines, reminder letters, assessments and worry about it not being done. And assuming something is brought in, then he will be able to claim. Stop wasting time posting on here and get it done on his behalf, would be my best advice.

If you need some help give me a shout.
		
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Thanks you.  My son is currently on the phone trying to get through to his bank asking them to consider stopping applying charges to his overdraft, and put in place a payment plan to pay it off.  He has had to chase as he wrote to them some weeks ago asking same and they have not got back to him - and have continued to apply charges...


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am simply asking that the government uses stronger language about what they require of us - absolutely nothing more.  I am also simply asking for more detail - it is clearly desperately required but many - though I'm clear on what I must and must not do.

That you see my hopes and wishes of the government through a political prism is your issue not mine.
		
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No you keep keep stating they *must. *That's not asking them to do anything its you banging the same drum digging at them as usual because it doesn't meet your criteria. The government arw doing a good job in exceptionally trying circumstances. They are giving factual info based on expert guidance and not just winging it.

They have given all of us everything they have so far and are continuing to do so. What we *must *do is listen and follow the guidance given nothing more and nothing less. It's as simple as that, as long as you do what you know you should do then let the authorities deal with idiots that don't. That's all that *must* be done for now..

As for my views on your political prism it's not my issue at all, its you who continues to post about your views on them!


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## Stuart_C (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What if you haven't made a tax return yet?  I must get my son to do his 2018/2019 tax return (it's complicated and yes he is late but HMRC know) - it'll be his first.  But we'll find a way.
		
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How old is your Son If you dont mind me asking? 

I always do my tax return in April so I can spend my rebate in May. Winner winner 😉


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nothing.  He didn't really understand (or probably he didn't _want _to understand in truth) that even although he was earning diddly-squat he still had to do a tax return.  He only registered as sole-trader in February - he started work on a sole-trader basis April 2018. He has another 6 weeks or so to get his tax return for 2018/19 done (3months is given following registration to get first one done).  I must sit with him sometime today or this evening to get it done.  Might be to late. 

That said he can provide evidence from his bank account of his last X months income as a sole-trader as it comes solely from two event management companies.
		
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It sounds as though it is in his hands then. 

It also sounds as though at some point he needs to speak to a business advisor to run himself correctly. I would have thought, for example, that he would have been better setting himself up as a ltd company rather than a sole trader (don't take my word for it, he needs to speak to someone who knows his business, I don't) . If this is your son in Sheffield then go through this site, https://www.syob.net/uk/start-a-business/South-Yorkshire/1608 This should be a council run agency and he will not have to pay for any of the advice or courses etc. He really needs to go through that going forward and get some advice.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 24, 2020)




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## Pin-seeker (Mar 24, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I think his post hinted that he’s staying in Mexico rather than coming back. Can’t fault him. Siesta!
		
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He’s a scab,all for themselves that lot 🤷‍♂️


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## User62651 (Mar 24, 2020)

If the country is in lockdown and we are forced to stay home why is anyone who wants still going to work? What is the point, either we all do it or it's pointless.
Sky saying Commuters reporting packed trains with no distancing today. 
My mum has had the window cleaner at the house, the fishman arrive  in his van and a mechanic down to take her car away for servicing.


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2020)

Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.


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## chellie (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Fingers crossed it is just a cold Brian. Keep us updated.


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## chellie (Mar 24, 2020)

HID is being furloughed from Thursday night unless things change between then and now.


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## DRW (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks you.  My son is currently on the phone trying to get through to his bank asking them to consider stopping applying charges to his overdraft, and put in place a payment plan to pay it off.  He has had to chase as he wrote to them some weeks ago asking same and they have not got back to him - and have continued to apply charges...
		
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BTW There is a low earning self employment exemption around, if his self employed income is very low btw.

If he is going to do it himself, then he needs to register to submit his tax return online as soon as possible as registration takes quite a time btw(normally this is a separate exercise to just registering to declare his income/need to complete a tax return), so do now rather than later. Be sensible with claims. I would say I did read your other thread, but did not comment as do not really give advice on forums due to claims and not taking on new clients and whilst I appreciate the advice given on the forum is well meaning, quite a bit of what was posted in your other thread was incorrect advice tbh.

If he is going to take advice, then get him to speak to someone who knows what they are doing and has been recommended to you. 

All the best in these testing times.


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Oh Jeez Brian...
Take as much care as you can..


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## richart (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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All the very best Brian and here's hoping it is a cold. Thinking of you old boy.


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## bluewolf (Mar 24, 2020)

So


Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Sorry to hear this Bri.. I'll be thinking of you until we hear better news...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Stay safe mate and take care.


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## sunshine (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Not sure it's appropriate to "like" your post. But get well soon - hope you are ok


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

FAB90 said:



			If she could do without it I would just say to leave it but needs must! Being a main dealer would they not maybe offer to drop it off to you?
		
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Thanks mate, just called Audi and they will deliver her car back home  . I owe you one when this is over


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## GreiginFife (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Pray you don't. The ambulance will be 2 hours or more before it arrives. It'll be busy elsewhere.
		
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I pray I don't every day of the week. Nothing to do with Covid-19. 

I assume that the "you might have an accident" applies to Cyclists too, or are Lycra warriors exempt form this too, like many seem to think they are exempt from one-way systems. 

I had to drive the breadth of the country this morning (before anyone gets on a high horse I had been working at a client site that was open until 1130 last night (and I had had 2 beers by that point). Roads were still busy but the sheer number of Cyclonazis was astounding.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			How old is your Son If you dont mind me asking?

I always do my tax return in April so I can spend my rebate in May. Winner winner 😉
		
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He's 27 and has been 'trading' since End April 2018.  He did not register as a sole trader until late January this year. He has until End April to submit his tax return for 2018/2019.  His income for that tax year will be maybe £14k tops.  Even with minimal expenses claimed as tax deductible his tax bill shouldn't be that much.  Mind you it will still be too much for him at the moment as his income is now zero...joys...hopefully HMRC will not demand immediate payment.


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## JustOne (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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I'm sure ALL our thoughts are with you Brian, get well FAST.


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## FAB90 (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Thanks mate, just called Audi and they will deliver her car back home  . I owe you one when this is over 

Click to expand...

Good stuff mate


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## MegaSteve (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Take care Stay safe....


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's 27 and has been 'trading' since End April 2018.  He did not register as a sole trader until late January this year. *He has until End April to submit his tax return for 2018/2019*.  His income for that tax year will be maybe £14k tops.  Even with minimal expenses claimed as tax deductible his tax bill shouldn't be that much.  Mind you it will still be too much for him at the moment as his income is now zero...joys...hopefully HMRC will not demand immediate payment.
		
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Memo to him for future reference, just because you have until a certain date to complete a tax form it does not mean that you should wait until that date. Get them done as soon as you can each year, why not?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 24, 2020)

Just back from our daily allowance walk around the Lido... Very quiet... Understandably the beach area has been cordoned off but they've left the area of the beach set aside for dogs to romp open... So fairly full of dog owners failing to practice social distancing... Also, they were currently fencing off the outdoor gym kit... Puzzled to see the car wash open... Hardly essential...

Also, quite upsetting to see refrigerator units being established in the crematorium car park...


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## Bigfoot (Mar 24, 2020)

We were due to have work start on a new kitchen yesterday morning. Luckily, we had a discussion with them and all agreed that if a lockdown came, we would be in a mess for ages. The gas hob was reconnected and we now have loads of things in other rooms, including a fridge and freezer in the lounge.
Unfortunately, we had deliberately not bought too much food and certainly not things for cooking  other than microwave meals. 
Managed to get some marmite on Sunday though, so everything is OK .


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## pokerjoke (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Bri I really hope you haven’t been affected.
Really take care of yourself
Thinking of you bud
Keep us all updated


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## User20204 (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Hmmm...that doesn't sound good at all.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Oh crikey - hopefully not the virus and you're 100% soon.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 24, 2020)

Called into the office today and brought home pc/phone etc for working from home. Office likely to completely close today. Not sure about our factories but as our customers (builders merchants) are closed also it seems to continue producing may not be essential.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Called into the office today and brought home pc/phone etc for working from home. Office likely to completely close today. Not sure about our factories but as our customers (builders merchants) are closed also it seems to continue producing may not be essential.
		
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Depends on what they produce. My wife works for a manufacturer supplying the building trade, merchants and DIY stores and are under instruction to keep going as hardware stores (which I assume includes merchants) are being kept open (probably to give people DIY to so to stop insanity setting in).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It sounds as though it is in his hands then.

It also sounds as though at some point he needs to speak to a business advisor to run himself correctly. I would have thought, for example, that he would have been better setting himself up as a ltd company rather than a sole trader (don't take my word for it, he needs to speak to someone who knows his business, I don't) . If this is your son in Sheffield then go through this site, https://www.syob.net/uk/start-a-business/South-Yorkshire/1608 This should be a council run agency and he will not have to pay for any of the advice or courses etc. He really needs to go through that going forward and get some advice.
		
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We have been speaking with the Business DebtLine Charity and the TaxAid (HMRC and accounting support if income <£20k) Charity.  They have been hugely helpful but I think I may well seek professional accountancy support for him.


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## Kellfire (Mar 24, 2020)

I’m very lucky that I live near a local corner shop and two well stocked garages so I was able to do my first “lockdown” shop today and get almost everything I wanted including some treats so we don’t get too bored. The only thing I fancied was baked beans but I’ve got my own in the slow cooker now. They may well turn out terribly but it’s only about one quid’s worth of produce lost if so!


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## Kellfire (Mar 24, 2020)

Oh and Kellfire’s top tip for those who haven’t thought of it - make an inventory of what you have including use by dates for perishables. Yes, some food that can be frozen won’t taste quite as good if frozen and defrosted but it’ll be just as nutritious. Avoid wastage and you’ll maybe be able to stay at home an extra day per week from the shops by using all your food.


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## User20204 (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm gonna have to do one hell of a walk/cycle to work off all the crap I'm eating sitting about in the house, almost cleaned out of bourbons and custard creams.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 24, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Depends on what they produce. My wife works for a manufacturer supplying the building trade, merchants and DIY stores and are under instruction to keep going as hardware stores (which I assume includes merchants) are being kept open (probably to give people DIY to so to stop insanity setting in).
		
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We produce pre-cast concrete products so yes the building trade but major customers such as Travis Perkins and Jewson are closing all their depots from today.


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## Crow (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Good grief Brian, all the precautions you've been taking too.
Hope it's something minor, take care.


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## Tab373 (Mar 24, 2020)

Me and the wife are still working and trying to juggle looking after the children. Wife is a matron on the front line testing and looking after the sick. I’m in nuclear security so that’s 24/7. Worse thing is our children were missed off the list of one that can still go school and all spaces are taken. I wouldn’t send my girls to school full time just the odd day. But work have said I can have an extra 14 days off this year to look after my girl with full pay.


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## fundy (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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fingers xxx'ed its just a cold


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## Robster59 (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Really sorry to hear that.  I hope it is just a cold.  Fingers crossed for you.


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## DRW (Mar 24, 2020)

Innovation coming though already:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52008745

Great to see and read about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Memo to him for future reference, just because you have until a certain date to complete a tax form it does not mean that you should wait until that date. Get them done as soon as you can each year, why not?
		
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Indeed.  I work for the company and in the team that supported the HMRC Self-Assessment systems - and they'd despair that so many left doing their tax returns for the previous year until the last couple of days - when they had had 9 months or so to do it.  This meant that we with HMRC has to scale the systems for the load of 2 days out of 365 - and then scale up support as well as HMRC scaling up their support lines.  Madness.


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## fundy (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed.  I work for the company and in the team that supported the HMRC Self-Assessment systems - and they'd despair that so many left doing their tax returns for the previous year until the last couple of days - when they had had 9 months or so to do it.  This meant that we with HMRC has to scale the systems for the load of 2 days out of 365 - and then scale up support as well as HMRC scaling up their support lines.  Madness.
		
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and still they dont have the sense to stagger the deadlines to different people to make things easier for themselves!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 24, 2020)

Well, me boomerang boy is now working from home unless he absolutely has to go into the office to receive or despatch goods 😞😞... Will be initialling a swear box 📦 and I suspect by the time we can go out into the world again we'll have enough for a good meal out...


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## Robster59 (Mar 24, 2020)

I have an order placed for Click and Collect from Morrisons.  Now my Stepson is going to go and get shopping for us and I want to cancel our Morrisons order but the website has crashed and according to the Morrisons voicemail, nobody can access it, not even themselves.  I've till midnight to cancel.  Given what's happening elsewhere it's not the end of the world.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Take care Brian, you're only whippersnapper you should be fine , fingers crossed x


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## Lump (Mar 24, 2020)

I’m a key worker. Leaving to go to work the last few shifts makes me feel uneasy to say the least. 
Not made any easier by the antics of Network Rail, Signing into worksites is turning out to be a nightmare. The NWR staff just don’t seem to understand what social distancing is. Being handed paperwork to sign into, when they could just fill it out themselves. Requesting we still meet face to face to sign in, rather than over the phone. 
Sunday night I watched NWR install a chunk of new rail. Not a single one of them made any efforts to social distance when they weren’t actively working.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I have an order placed for Click and Collect from Morrisons.  Now my Stepson is going to go and get shopping for us and I want to cancel our Morrisons order but the website has crashed and according to the Morrisons voicemail, nobody can access it, not even themselves.  I've till midnight to cancel.  Given what's happening elsewhere it's not the end of the world.
		
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Out of interest, could a taxi driver pick up your shopping for you ?


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## Robster59 (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Out of interest, could a taxi driver pick up your shopping for you ?
		
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This may sound daft but my missus is paranoid about any cross contamination so she'd rather her lad get stuff from a shop she knows.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			This may sound daft but my missus is paranoid about any cross contamination so she'd rather her lad get stuff from a shop she knows.
		
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I was thinking more of the home delivery service supermarkets do , but can't cope with the high demand just now. 
I mentioned it to a taxi driver if they could pick shopping up and he said it wouldn't be worth their while


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## Robster59 (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I was thinking more of the home delivery service supermarkets do , but can't cope with the high demand just now.
I mentioned it to a taxi driver if they could pick shopping up and he said it wouldn't be worth their while 

Click to expand...

I'll keep working on her but to be honest I'd rather lose the money than have the hassle.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I'll keep working on her but to be honest I'd rather lose the money than have the hassle.
		
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In lockdown go with the flow lol


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## JamesR (Mar 24, 2020)

I'm on furlough as from 1.4.20...80% salary, will do some work from home when I can. But unfortunately in accountancy it can be pretty quiet until May.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He's 27 and has been 'trading' since End April 2018.  He did not register as a sole trader until late January this year. He has until End April to submit his tax return for 2018/2019.  His income for that tax year will be maybe £14k tops.  Even with minimal expenses claimed as tax deductible his tax bill shouldn't be that much.  Mind you it will still be too much for him at the moment as his income is now zero...joys...hopefully HMRC will not demand immediate payment.
		
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He’ll be due a decent rebate so I suggest you get it done ASAP. Better to have the money in his pocket rather than the HMRC’s account.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Slime said:



			That is a good thought, if only it were that simple, but somewhat ironic coming from our resident globe trotter!
There are times when it's best to stay silent.
		
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Think I came out when FCO said it's ok to fly. Maybe the globe trotters at skegness etc at the weekend had a bit to do with it 😖


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I'm on furlough as from 1.4.20...80% salary, will do some work from home when I can. But unfortunately in accountancy it can be pretty quiet until May.
		
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Is your Company paying the other 20%?


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## huds1475 (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Hang tough brother ✊


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## JamesR (Mar 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is your Company paying the other 20%?
		
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I don't think so, no.

It makes sense for me to be in this situation, as I'm having to self isolate anyway, due to health reasons, so I may as well be one of those not having to go in occasionally etc.

Also, with not going out, not forking out for petrol, meals, golf comp's, lessons etc I shouldn't lose out too much , and it's better than full redundancy.


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## rosecott (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Think I came out when FCO said it's ok to fly. Maybe the globe trotters at skegness etc at the weekend had a bit to do with it 😖
		
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Maybe it's the tequila, but your posts are making less and less sense. Skegness?


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## patricks148 (Mar 24, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I'm on furlough as from 1.4.20...80% salary, will do some work from home when I can. But unfortunately in accountancy it can be pretty quiet until May.
		
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Same here. wife has already started dropping hints about decorating


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Have you been on the crack pipe or are you just trying to look like a fool.

These 2 quotes combined make you look ridiculous, you knew all the issues yet you jetted off to Mexico, will have to fly on a confined aircraft with yourself or others being potential carriers yet you have the cheek to tell people we need to stop moving about to prevent the virus moving. On top of all that potential infection you're exposed to your planning on flying back whether that's via plane or on your magical pegasus High horse and have your grandchildren for 3 weeks, exposing them to the risk of whatever you may have brought back with you.

Your daughter is a copper therefore a key worker and as such they can remain at school or the alternative is for them to be with their other parent if as you say both are coppers then their superior can arrange alternate shift patterns.

You should be getting back to the UK and quarantine yourselves as is expected of anyone that's been on international travel. I literally cannot believe you've posted those 2 things you're being either unbelievably selfish or stupid, perhaps even both. Stop telling people what we should do when you do the opposite and don't put your grandchildren at risk man for god sake.
		
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This is our problem wolf, having checked the Gov sites every day for advice it does not say you have to self isolate. Only from countries that have been affected. And so far Mexico is not one of those countries. If someone has a link we would be chuffed to read it. The situation has massively changed in the UK over the last 24 hrs, so we have to change with it. It is something we know we will have to do. For the record we flew to Mexico, a country the FCO said was safe to travel to, not Wuhan or Northern Italy. The antics of people in the UK enforced the lock down..not the people on the plane I will.be travelling ho.e on


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Maybe it's the tequila, but your posts are making less and less sense. Skegness?
		
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Think there was about 50 thousand folk there at the weekend Jim


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			This is our problem wolf, having checked the Gov sites every day for advice it does not say you have to self isolate. Only from countries that have been affected. And so far Mexico is not one of those countries. If someone has a link we would be chuffed to read it. The situation has massively changed in the UK over the last 24 hrs, so we have to change with it. It is something we know we will have to do. *For the record we flew to Mexico, a country the FCO said was safe to travel to*, not Wuhan or Northern Italy. The antics of people in the UK enforced the lock down..not the people on the plane I will.be travelling ho.e on
		
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Pretty sure the advice was not to travel anywhere unless it was urgent. Also to be honest I'd get out as soon as possible as evidence from literally every country in the world shows that things escalate quickly   https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...t-has-done-too-little-too-lat?t=1585063264640


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			This is our problem wolf, having checked the Gov sites every day for advice it does not say you have to self isolate. Only from countries that have been affected. And so far Mexico is not one of those countries. If someone has a link we would be chuffed to read it. The situation has massively changed in the UK over the last 24 hrs, so we have to change with it. It is something we know we will have to do. For the record we flew to Mexico, a country the FCO said was safe to travel to, not Wuhan or Northern Italy. The antics of people in the UK enforced the lock down..not the people on the plane I will.be travelling ho.e on
		
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"Does not say you have to self isolate..." Remind me of your post where you said you couldn't play golf because there were 250 cases of it in that town...if it was that close...

You're relying on when someone says you can't when you already know what you've left behind you in Mexico. Can't think for yourself?


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			This is our problem wolf, having checked the Gov sites every day for advice it does not say you have to self isolate. Only from countries that have been affected. And so far Mexico is not one of those countries. If someone has a link we would be chuffed to read it. The situation has massively changed in the UK over the last 24 hrs, so we have to change with it. It is something we know we will have to do. For the record we flew to Mexico, a country the FCO said was safe to travel to, not Wuhan or Northern Italy. The antics of people in the UK enforced the lock down..not the people on the plane I will.be travelling ho.e on
		
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As already been stated the advice was don't travel unless you had to. Do you know everyone you're coming into contact with there, on flight back, at the airport upon your return is free from Covid19 and not putting you at risk of carrying it to. Of course you don't, therefore upon return rather than risking the health of your grandchildren you should be isolating away from them until you know you're clear. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

You knew before you went what was happening but carried on regardless even when telling us there were confirmed cases near where you are and continued to spout tripe about how we back here should stop moving about.


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## Orikoru (Mar 24, 2020)

I think maybe we could all stop hammering Tashy now? I have to be honest if we had invested money in a holiday and the airline didn't cancel it for us, I'd have had a hard time deciding what to do, and probably leaned on the side of going and avoiding the tug-of-war around getting a refund and so on. 

Tashy maybe don't comment on people's movements anymore as you're going to get jumped on every time.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			This is our problem wolf, having checked the Gov sites every day for advice it does not say you have to self isolate. Only from countries that have been affected. And so far Mexico is not one of those countries. If someone has a link we would be chuffed to read it. The situation has massively changed in the UK over the last 24 hrs, so we have to change with it. It is something we know we will have to do. For the record we flew to Mexico, a country the FCO said was safe to travel to, not Wuhan or Northern Italy. The antics of people in the UK enforced the lock down..not the people on the plane I will.be travelling ho.e on
		
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Four days ago FCo said you all should return on the next available flight.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			This is our problem wolf, having checked the Gov sites every day for advice it does not say you have to self isolate. Only from countries that have been affected. And so far Mexico is not one of those countries. If someone has a link we would be chuffed to read it. The situation has massively changed in the UK over the last 24 hrs, so we have to change with it. It is something we know we will have to do. For the record we flew to Mexico, a country the FCO said was safe to travel to, not Wuhan or Northern Italy. The antics of people in the UK enforced the lock down..not the people on the plane I will.be travelling ho.e on
		
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The government advice in 2016 was to vote remain. How many followed that advice? All of a sudden the government advice is gospel.

I’d imagine you won’t be landing at home and then mingling with the nation. The airports and government were allowing travel at the time of departure. You’ve done nothing wrong. It’s a certainty that most of these lot have done some unnecessary travel the past two weeks.
Some of us would of got on the plane with you had we had it booked!


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## drdel (Mar 24, 2020)

Info I recd from the FCO's email today...

"As countries respond to the COVID-19 pandemic, including travel and border restrictions, the FCO advises British nationals against all but essential international travel. Any country or area may restrict travel without notice. If you live in the UK and are currently travelling abroad, you are strongly advised to return now, where and while there are still commercial routes available. Many airlines are suspending flights and many airports are closing, preventing flights from leaving.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/travel-advice-novel-coronavirus "


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## backwoodsman (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
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Sorry to hear that Brian. Here's hoping it's not. Stay safe


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			He’ll be due a decent rebate so I suggest you get it done ASAP. Better to have the money in his pocket rather than the HMRC’s account.
		
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no rebate as he hasn't paid any tax.


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

Well that's us a wee bit buggered. Just had confirmation can't start new permanent job until this blows over and fact my contracts have ended with last employer leaves me with no income after(if) I receive my last payment from them in 2 weeks, plus the fact Mrs Wolf has not even been told if they're getting the 80% allowance from Mike Ashley's company means we will be struggling for while and eating up that little bit of savings we have left.  At least the suns out 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Well that's us a wee bit buggered. Just had confirmation can't start new permanent job until this blows over and fact my contracts have ended with last employer leaves me with no income after(if) I receive my last payment from them in 2 weeks, plus the fact Mrs Wolf has not even been told if they're getting the 80% allowance from Mike Ashley's company means we will be struggling for while and eating up that little bit of savings we have left.  At least the suns out 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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1st question,  did you have a new contract for the new job?
2nd if wifes permanent on regular pay she should get the 80%. Mind you working for that piece of crap, who knows


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I think maybe we could all stop hammering Tashy now? I have to be honest if we had invested money in a holiday and the airline didn't cancel it for us, I'd have had a hard time deciding what to do, and probably leaned on the side of going and avoiding the tug-of-war around getting a refund and so on.

Tashy maybe don't comment on people's movements anymore as you're going to get jumped on every time. 

Click to expand...

Tbh I think he forgets what he posts previously, if you get really, really bored, have a look back on this thread were he informed us all about chatting to his mate in Italy and how bad it was there, how they’d gone in to lockdown and how we were 2 weeks behind Italy and were we’d end up, now he’s blaming Skegness, despite his own warnings!!!

He’s also posted about his mam ignoring his warnings and going to the allotments! I agree he’s been robustly replied to, but his defence in all this is certainly not lack of awareness or possibility of what might/did happen.


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			1st question,  did you have a new contract for the new job?
2nd if wifes permanent on regular pay she should get the 80%. Mind you working for that piece of crap, who knows
		
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1, Yes but email received today was all new recruitment including new starters with contracts put on hold  subject to new contractual starting dates tbc because of Covid-19. Job was working for MOD site nearby. So I may have a shot at getting something but I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. Especially as I cannot get hold of anyone dealing with the contract directly as a result of this poxy virus. 

2, she should but as per the SD thread they've been told they as a company haven't even discussed the possibility of it yet and may not have an answer for some time.

Uncertain times at moment however I'll have to just see if tesco need shelf stacker 😂


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Havnt seen a copper for months by mine.
On news at ten police saying they will lose 40% of officers to the virus.
So 0- 40% = ?
		
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Update 
Two police officers in my road today .
Said hello , that was it .


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## Orikoru (Mar 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Tbh I think he forgets what he posts previously, if you get really, really bored, have a look back on this thread were he informed us all about chatting to his mate in Italy and how bad it was there, how they’d gone in to lockdown and how we were 2 weeks behind Italy and were we’d end up, now he’s blaming Skegness, despite his own warnings!!!

He’s also posted about his mam ignoring his warnings and going to the allotments! I agree he’s been robustly replied to, but his defence in all this is certainly not lack of awareness or possibility of what might/did happen.
		
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Granted he doesn't help himself.


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## robinthehood (Mar 24, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Granted he doesn't help himself. 

Click to expand...

Its  rambling nonsense  to be  skipped over.


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## Kellfire (Mar 24, 2020)

The time for speaking gently to people like Tashy is over. We had they chance last week. I wouldn’t hesitate to speak brutally to loved ones at this stage if they didn’t adhere to the basics.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 24, 2020)

No DFS sale .... has that ever happened in your lifetime?


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## Dando (Mar 24, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			No DFS sale .... has that ever happened in your lifetime?
		
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bloody typical! just as I was looking to get a new sofa!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2020)

Government advice on the construction industry - a work in progress methinks, nobody seems to have a clue what the advice actually is.  Gove's replies to questions on it this morning seems to have caused confusion.

Disappointed that still no further information on support to the self-employed and those with zero hours contracts.  My son tells me that his zero hours contract employer has told him that the guidance for the company on what to do for him is still not there.  He'll do what he can for my son - but as yet he doesn't know what he has to do.

Incredible and heartening the news that a two ward - 4000 bed hospital - The Nightingale Hospital - is buying built in the ExCel Centre in London and will be up and running in a couple of days...


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			1, Yes but email received today was all new recruitment including new starters with contracts put on hold  subject to new contractual starting dates tbc because of Covid-19. Job was working for MOD site nearby. So I may have a shot at getting something but I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. Especially as I cannot get hold of anyone dealing with the contract directly as a result of this poxy virus.

2, she should but as per the SD thread they've been told they as a company haven't even discussed the possibility of it yet and may not have an answer for some time.

Uncertain times at moment however I'll have to just see if tesco need shelf stacker 😂
		
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Are you close to Lincoln, Waitrose are after night stackers, not great pay but it might help.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Government advice on the construction industry - a work in progress methinks, nobody seems to have a clue what the advice actually is.  Gove's replies to questions on it this morning seems to have caused confusion.

Disappointed that still no further information on support to the self-employed and those with zero hours contracts.  My son tells me that his zero hours contract employer has told him that the guidance for the company on what to do for him is still not there.  He'll do what he can for my son - but as yet he doesn't know what he has to do.

Incredible and heartening the news that a two ward - 4000 bed hospital - The Nightingale Hospital - is buying built in the ExCel Centre in London and will be up and running in a couple of days...
		
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The governments advice on construction is as clear as day, whether it's right or wrong is another matter. You either have problems following advice or being your normal self. Your becoming more like Piers Morgan again.


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## Rooter (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Incredible and heartening the news that a two ward - 4000 bed hospital - The Nightingale Hospital - is buying built in the ExCel Centre in London and will be up and running in a couple of days...
		
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I wonder about on seeing this, whether people will actually start taking this seriously? Anyone who has been to the excel knows its MASSIVE! I am really quite scared that we are going to need this, and in the coming weeks, its gonna be full up...


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## Beezerk (Mar 24, 2020)

Had a conference call with work today, that's us closed for at least three weeks as of 5pm.
So I guess I'm going to be one of those trying to claim that 80% wages thing if I've read the news correctly. Luckily I have a bit of savings and the new boiler may not get fitted any time soon but we should be ok. A couple of lads sounded a bit panicky during the call like it's going to hit them in the pocket really hard.


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## rosecott (Mar 24, 2020)

Dando said:



			bloody typical! just as I was looking to get a new sofa! 

Click to expand...

Don't tell me she's already planning to relegate you to the sofa.


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## patricks148 (Mar 24, 2020)

just been out with the dog and the amount of people just wondering around is staggering, very few made any attempt to stay 2 mt away and two back packers tried to come up and stroke Rupert  as i waited for them to cross the bridge so i didn't have to go too close to them.


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## patricks148 (Mar 24, 2020)

all building work stopped anyway, the new canal bridge that is being built was deserted, stange all the stuff standing silent, esp as they have worked 24 hours on it the last 5 months, already well behind, was due to open end of March, only done the footing for the bridge so far.


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

Mrs Imurg went to work last night.
She's just woken up with a dry, persistent cough.
So we're in isolation for a couple of weeks......
Guess the car wont be getting serviced on Thursday...
More than a mite anxious at the moment.....


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Had a conference call with work today, that's us closed for at least three weeks as of 5pm.
So I guess I'm going to be one of those trying to claim that 80% wages thing if I've read the news correctly. Luckily I have a bit of savings and the new boiler may not get fitted any time soon but we should be ok. A couple of lads sounded a bit panicky during the call like it's going to hit them in the pocket really hard.
		
Click to expand...

Might be just the way you’re phrasing it, but, you don’t apply for the 80% the employer does it, the guidelines etc are on the HMRC website.
Worth a read to cover yourself.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			no rebate as he hasn't paid any tax.
		
Click to expand...

Is it not taxed at source? 

Some of my contracting work tax is paid so I’m paid net.


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## DRW (Mar 24, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Is it not taxed at source?

Some of my contracting work tax is paid so I’m paid net.
		
Click to expand...

Generally only construction is taxed at source(net paid businesses) whilst still being self employed. Most other industries do not have to operate the CIS scheme or similar.

The construction industry is really lucky(not!) and has to apply the CIS scheme to construction labour activities, hence why normally building subcontractors are due refunds, (as the CIS tax stopped is more than their tax liability.)

Hope that helps.


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## pendodave (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mrs Imurg went to work last night.
She's just woken up with a dry, persistent cough.
So we're in isolation for a couple of weeks......
Guess the car wont be getting serviced on Thursday...
More than a mite anxious at the moment.....
		
Click to expand...

Bugger. Good luck to you both.


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## Beezerk (Mar 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Might be just the way you’re phrasing it, but, you don’t apply for the 80% the employer does it, the guidelines etc are on the HMRC website.
Worth a read to cover yourself.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks mate, they did admit they didn't have any answers yet about pay etc I just assumed it would be something I would need to apply for like benefits or something.
I'll check it out


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## pendodave (Mar 24, 2020)

There are a lot of comments about the number of people about, but if you ask a good chuck of 60m people to stop going to work and get out once a day for exercise, there's really not that much room to do it.
10m (?) In London, they gotta go somewhere. It doesn't make (most) of them bad people.
Perhaps we've been approaching health and fitness the wrong way for years. Should have just told us not to do it...#nudge


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Had a conference call with work today, that's us closed for at least three weeks as of 5pm.
So I guess I'm going to be one of those trying to claim that 80% wages thing if I've read the news correctly. Luckily I have a bit of savings and the new boiler may not get fitted any time soon but we should be ok. A couple of lads sounded a bit panicky during the call like it's going to hit them in the pocket really hard.
		
Click to expand...

Your company should be doing the claiming for you.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mrs Imurg went to work last night.
She's just woken up with a dry, persistent cough.
So we're in isolation for a couple of weeks......
Guess the car wont be getting serviced on Thursday...
More than a mite anxious at the moment.....
		
Click to expand...

Oh no. Hopefully not the virus and you'll both be fine.


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## Fish (Mar 24, 2020)

I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London. 

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively. 

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍


----------



## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London. 

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively. 

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...

Take care Buddy
Stay in.


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## Dando (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mrs Imurg went to work last night.
She's just woken up with a dry, persistent cough.
So we're in isolation for a couple of weeks......
Guess the car wont be getting serviced on Thursday...
More than a mite anxious at the moment.....
		
Click to expand...

fingers crossed for you both mate


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## upsidedown (Mar 24, 2020)

Take care Fishy and fingers crossed for Mrs Imurg


----------



## DanFST (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.
		
Click to expand...

I would think this is flu, hopefully for you! 

My symptoms were just a beast of a cough and a fever, none of the other stuff. Sure it's different for everyone tho.


----------



## pokerjoke (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mrs Imurg went to work last night.
She's just woken up with a dry, persistent cough.
So we're in isolation for a couple of weeks......
Guess the car wont be getting serviced on Thursday...
More than a mite anxious at the moment.....
		
Click to expand...

Hope it’s nothing serious,keep well mate


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## User20204 (Mar 24, 2020)

There is no mention of sneezing or runny nose in the symptoms I believe.


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## Fish (Mar 24, 2020)

Dando said:



			bloody typical! just as I was looking to get a new sofa! 

Click to expand...

I ordered one 3 weeks ago, I’ve had an email from DFS, the day before before last nights announcement, stating that they expect to still deliver first week of April but will be taking all precautions at the delivery point, probably Just find it on my front lawn😳


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## pokerjoke (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London.

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...

Get to bed mate,probably overrun


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## Beezerk (Mar 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Your company should be doing the claiming for you.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks mate, I appreciate the advice


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London.

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...

Top up and motor on - in all seriousness. If you can be serious with someone who drinks fizzy pop, take care.


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## hovis (Mar 24, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I think maybe we could all stop hammering Tashy now? I have to be honest if we had invested money in a holiday and the airline didn't cancel it for us, I'd have had a hard time deciding what to do, and probably leaned on the side of going and avoiding the tug-of-war around getting a refund and so on.

Tashy maybe don't comment on people's movements anymore as you're going to get jumped on every time. 

Click to expand...

3 weeks ago i had a ski trip to northern Italy but outside the exclusion zone.  3 out of 4 of us went as £700 was alot of money to lose.  we had to return home after one day and got £610 back.  the guy that chose not to come lost everything.  looking back I think it was a irresponsible decision to go but it hadn't quite kicked off at that point.      I'm not sure what I'd do if it was a 2k family holiday.  I've always been one to follow the government advice


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## Wolf (Mar 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are you close to Lincoln, Waitrose are after night stackers, not great pay but it might help.
		
Click to expand...

About a 25min drive, hey as things stand great pay or not its worth looking at and in a way helping people a little by sticking food out for them I'll have a look.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2020)

Is this exercise period each day compulsary?
Asking for a friend 😉


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London.

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...

Get well pal

I have also developed a sniffy nose, sore eyes (bit like hayfever) and the tiniest bit of a tight chest but any cough is a wet one and not dry and repetitive so at the moment not unduly fussed. Having taken my temperature twice in work (36.7 and 36.3) there doesn't seem to be any sign of a fever. Hasn't come on suddenly like your but has been a bit of a slow burner all day and with a lot of colds doing the rounds not worrying. Got the dregs of some Night Nurse so can glug that and hopefully sleep ok and feel better tomorrow


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## Robster59 (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			In lockdown go with the flow lol
		
Click to expand...

The website came live at last so managed to get the order cancelled.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			just been out with the dog and the amount of people just wondering around is staggering, very few made any attempt to stay 2 mt away and two back packers tried to come up and stroke Rupert  as i waited for them to cross the bridge so i didn't have to go too close to them.

Click to expand...

Same here.  Went for a run/jog/plod/lumber breathlessly round the lane where I live this evening and normally I see a couple of people at best when I'm walking the dog/jogging.  But today it was full of people wandering round aimlessly, it was like I was playing Frogger to avoid them.  How ironic it will be if I get the bloody thing from going out and getting some fresh air.


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## Robster59 (Mar 24, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Get well pal

I have also developed a sniffy nose, sore eyes (bit like hayfever) and the tiniest bit of a tight chest but any cough is a wet one and not dry and repetitive so at the moment not unduly fussed. Having taken my temperature twice in work (36.7 and 36.3) there doesn't seem to be any sign of a fever. Hasn't come on suddenly like your but has been a bit of a slow burner all day and with a lot of colds doing the rounds not worrying. Got the dregs of some Night Nurse so can glug that and hopefully sleep ok and feel better tomorrow
		
Click to expand...

I had this last week, just getting over it now.  Knocked me out for a day and went through lots of valuable hankies but all OK.  Missus was worried as I don't tend to come down with anything.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London.

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...

Bloody hell. 
stay safe fishy.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 24, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			I had this last week, just getting over it now.  Knocked me out for a day and went through lots of valuable hankies but all OK.  Missus was worried as I don't tend to come down with anything.
		
Click to expand...

I've had the flu jab so reassured from that perspective that even if it's that it "should" be a mild form. I think it's a cold coming on, but trying not to tuck into the valuable paracetamol supply. I have lemsip and night nurse so got enough treatments to at least attack the bug initially.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mrs Imurg went to work last night.
She's just woken up with a dry, persistent cough.
So we're in isolation for a couple of weeks......
Guess the car wont be getting serviced on Thursday...
More than a mite anxious at the moment.....
		
Click to expand...

Best wishes Ian . Good health and speedy recovery ..


----------



## bladeplayer (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London.

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...

Hopefuly " only the flu"  Robin  best wishes mate get better soon


----------



## Slime (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London.

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...


Hey Robin, you've got to be okay ......................... I need to see how YOTF III pans out!


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 24, 2020)

My daughter and my ex wife who has advanced dementia and in a wheel chair have been stranded here for 10 days since coming from Tenerife. Staying a week in a couple of hotels that then closed their restaurants
They managed to get a friends holiday caravan in Dunbar while they sort things out with a care home for my ex.
Now the caravan site is closing and wanted them out by tonight, after some discussion their allowed to stay a little longer. Now looking for a ground floor apartment to  short term rent as the can't afford hotel prices.


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## bladeplayer (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Shopped last Thursday. Last night; fever, dry throat and cough. Threw up about 2:30am. Feel like crap this morning, still with a fever. Chest feels like it stinging inside, front and back. Here's hoping its just a cold... a bit anxious to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

Best wishes Brian   .. hopefuly a flu abd itl pass in day r so


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pretty sure the advice was not to travel anywhere unless it was urgent. Also to be honest I'd get out as soon as possible as evidence from literally every country in the world shows that things escalate quickly   https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...t-has-done-too-little-too-lat?t=1585063264640

Click to expand...

Just got back from meeting with the TUI rep. Bottom line we come back 2 days early with a flight to Gatwick. Then a coach up to manchester. Another plane is leaving early for Manchester tomorrow.
According to the rep, If the UK had not gone Into lockdown we would of stayed til saturday.
I have asked re self isolation  etc, On our return. They have said that if the UK had not gone Into lock down there was no need to go Into self isolation. But ad now is the case everyone is. At the moment  the UK is more of a risk than Mexico. I and everyone else that travels back to the UK have more  chance of catching it there than here, not my words.
What I will say HK is that this last few days the folk in the hotels have gone to another level re cleaning and masks etc. Some shops have  closed, golf  courses shut. Trips totally cancelled.etc etc. 
Our rep is coming back to the UK with us because of the lockdown the hols/TUI have now finished. Been watchng the Mexico updates re the Virus. Gonna be interesting out here over the next few weeks.
Cheers for the link Hk me man


----------



## Fish (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Just got back from meeting with the TUI rep. Bottom line we come back 2 days early with a flight to Gatwick. Then a coach up to manchester. Another plane is leaving early for Manchester tomorrow.
According to the rep, If the UK had not gone Into lockdown we would of stayed til saturday.
I have asked re self isolation  etc, On our return. They have said that if the UK had not gone Into lock down there was no need to go Into self isolation. But ad now is the case everyone is. At the moment  the UK is more of a risk than Mexico. I and everyone else that travels back to the UK have more  chance of catching it there than here, not my words.
What I will say HK is that this last few days the folk in the hotels have gone to another level re cleaning and masks etc. Some shops have  closed, golf  courses shut. Trips totally cancelled.etc etc.
Our rep is coming back to the UK with us because of the lockdown the hols/TUI have now finished. Been watchng the Mexico updates re the Virus. Gonna be interesting out here over the next few weeks.
Cheers for the link Hk me man
		
Click to expand...

So are you saying on return your not going to self isolate yourself for 14 days?


----------



## Fish (Mar 24, 2020)

Rooter said:



			I wonder about on seeing this, whether people will actually start taking this seriously? Anyone who has been to the excel knows its MASSIVE! I am really quite scared that we are going to need this, and in the coming weeks, its gonna be full up...
		
Click to expand...

Local news stating the NEC is preparing itself also as a regional hospital & morgue, all shows cancelled so all the halls are empty, that’s also a lot of space to fill 😳


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			As already been stated the advice was don't travel unless you had to. Do you know everyone you're coming into contact with there, on flight back, at the airport upon your return is free from Covid19 and not putting you at risk of carrying it to. Of course you don't, therefore upon return rather than risking the health of your grandchildren you should be isolating away from them until you know you're clear. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

You knew before you went what was happening but carried on regardless even when telling us there were confirmed cases near where you are and continued to spout tripe about how we back here should stop moving about.
		
Click to expand...

Wolf at the time we flew, the advice re travel to mexico on the official  government FOC website. Not the golf monthly travel opinion site,  was Mexico is safe to travel to. So your tripe is wrong, otherwise how would we have got out here. I know a pegasus horse
We  Would still be here til Saturday if the twats in the UK had not gone out en massee over the weekend. A month before I came out here Beezerk was here. Was he wrong to fly out here. No coz the FOC said it's ok to travel. Re a risk to our grandkids, we have more chance of catching something off them as they have been in a country that has a far higher rate of Covid than here. Would like to see where I have said there is  confirmed cases near here.


----------



## Mudball (Mar 24, 2020)

Where is that lovely smirking Mrs Patel...   A month ago, she was classifying a lot of people as 'unskilled' or 'low wages'.....  Her boss thinks they are key workers.   What a difference a month makes...


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			So are you saying on return your not going to self isolate yourself for 14 days?
		
Click to expand...

No we will be in isolation Fish 👍 as I mentioned re " But ad now is the case everyone  is"


----------



## richart (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in bed since returning home just after lunch, was suddenly hit with flu like symptoms whilst out on deliveries in London.

I’ve had colds & man flu’s before and they tend to slowly take a grip of you with various symptoms displaying themselves first before the main illness takes hold, but this has just hit me hard in a single blow within an hour, so much so I didn’t think at one point I was going to make it home!

I don't have a fever but I do have a dry cough, sneezing fits, runny and sensitive nose, my left eye is raw and almost closed like I’ve been in a scrap because it’s been watering up so much, I feel like shite!

I’m confident (currently) this is a flu symptom, but I’ve never known or experienced one coming on so quickly and so aggressively.

The weather was truly great today, it’s typical, the best day by a clear mile this year, if not for nigh on 6 months, and we all find ourselves in this awful situation with our love for golf, which is usually our escapism away from the daily madness, taken away, but staying safe, keeping healthy has to be our priority, let’s all get through this and come out the other side and get back out in those golf courses as quickly as possible 👍
		
Click to expand...

Get well soon Robin. Can’t believe a bug would dare have a go at you.


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## Dando (Mar 24, 2020)

richart said:



			Get well soon Robin. Can’t believe a bug would dare have a go at you.
		
Click to expand...

The bug will probably come down with  something


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## Fish (Mar 24, 2020)

Dando said:



			The bug will probably come down with  something
		
Click to expand...

😳😜😂


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

Robin Hopkins - the Forum's equivalent of Chuck Norris


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## Slime (Mar 24, 2020)

richart said:



			Get well soon Robin. Can’t believe a bug would dare have a go at you.
		
Click to expand...

It's probably a touch of fin rot, or maybe just cotton mouth.


----------



## Fromtherough (Mar 24, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I've had the flu jab so reassured from that perspective that even if it's that it "should" be a mild form. I think it's a cold coming on, but trying not to tuck into the valuable paracetamol supply. I have lemsip and night nurse so got enough treatments to at least attack the bug initially.
		
Click to expand...

I do wonder if you are on the constant wind up when I read your posts.


----------



## Fish (Mar 24, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			I do wonder if you are on the constant wind up when I read your posts.
		
Click to expand...

Oh no, our Homie is the real deal, skin of a rhino, he’s unique, and he belongs to us 😏


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			Oh no, our Homie is the real deal, skin of a rhino, he’s unique, and he belongs to us 😏
		
Click to expand...

He's getting delirious


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			Oh no, our Homie is the real deal, skin of a rhino, he’s unique, and he belongs to us 😏
		
Click to expand...

 Homie is Fish's biatch...


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Robin Hopkins - the Forum's equivalent of Chuck Norris 

Click to expand...

😳 Chuck Fish 😁


----------



## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

Boom back tomorrow straight to God county.
Anyone need owt bringing back.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 24, 2020)

Slime said:



			It's probably a touch of fin rot, or maybe just cotton mouth.  

Click to expand...

Have you ever played golf with him? Potty mouth more like 😉


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## Stuart_C (Mar 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Have you ever played golf with him? Potty mouth more like 😉
		
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Once and never ever again 😂😂


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## Slime (Mar 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



 Homie is Fish's biatch...

Click to expand...

Homie is EVERYBODY'S biatch!


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## Fish (Mar 24, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Once and never ever again 😂😂
		
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Only ever round I struggled to get a word in 😳


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## hovis (Mar 24, 2020)

.


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## ger147 (Mar 24, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			My daughter and my ex wife who has advanced dementia and in a wheel chair have been stranded here for 10 days since coming from Tenerife. Staying a week in a couple of hotels that then closed their restaurants
They managed to get a friends holiday caravan in Dunbar while they sort things out with a care home for my ex.
Now the caravan site is closing and wanted them out by tonight, after some discussion their allowed to stay a little longer. Now looking for a ground floor apartment to  short term rent as the can't afford hotel prices.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds a proper nightmare, hope it all gets sorted soon 👍🏻👍🏻


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## DaveR (Mar 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Boom back tomorrow straight to God county.
Anyone need owt bringing back.
		
Click to expand...

How long till your next holiday?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

DaveR said:



			How long till your next holiday?
		
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Just had confirmation within the last 10 mins that the holiday to Majorca with the grandkids in april is cancelled. No dramas.

At this rate though 2022 😁


----------



## Crazyface (Mar 24, 2020)

De-spidered the shed and put another shelf up in there, plus a place to hang stuff. Then scarified the lawn.  Cracking days work. Tomorrow? Well I've got loads to do so not sure what will take priority.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 24, 2020)

Until last week it hadn't really affected me that much. On Friday last week we came into port and a colleague had come down with worrying symptoms, which meant the captain decided to quarantine our boat. He was monitored over the weekend and didn't get any better so on Monday the Port Authorities, WHO and Public Health England had to be informed. My voluntary 7 day isolation at home has now become an enforced self-isolation until 3rd April at the earliest. Fortunately I'm not showing any symptoms so far and am feeling OK. Have hooked up to the house electric and WiFi and have a TV and PS4 to keep me entertained.


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2020)

2nd week working from home and my laptop is having a major connectivity  wobble!

Not being operational staff , I'm way down the list for repair assistance.... could be an unproductive day tomorrow


----------



## BrianM (Mar 24, 2020)

Just got told my relief for work isn't coming out.....
I've only done 2 weeks as i failed a medical and was on statutory sick pay.
There going to ask me to stay on, guaranteed, not a problem really.
We get treble time for overtime, but i reckon they will try and shaft me and give me single time as i missed my first week.
Any employment experts out there!!


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## CliveW (Mar 24, 2020)

My son has been in in the Antarctic since October and now trying to get home. Unfortunately all scheduled flights from South America are cancelled so the only hope now appears to be a flight out to the Falklands and an RAF flight back to the UK.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Just got told my relief for work isn't coming out.....
I've only done 2 weeks as i failed a medical and was on statutory sick pay.
There going to ask me to stay on, guaranteed, not a problem really.
We get treble time for overtime, but i reckon they will try and shaft me and give me single time as i missed my first week.
Any employment experts out there!!
		
Click to expand...

What line of work you in Brian.


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Wolf at the time we flew, the advice re travel to mexico on the official  government FOC website. Not the golf monthly travel opinion site,  was Mexico is safe to travel to. So your tripe is wrong, otherwise how would we have got out here. I know a pegasus horse
We  Would still be here til Saturday if the twats in the UK had not gone out en massee over the weekend. A month before I came out here Beezerk was here. Was he wrong to fly out here. No coz the FOC said it's ok to travel. Re a risk to our grandkids, we have more chance of catching something off them as they have been in a country that has a far higher rate of Covid than here. Would like to see where I have said there is  confirmed cases near here.
		
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You’re a joke.


----------



## Slab (Mar 25, 2020)

I thought moving to 'total confinement' was an aggressive gov response 
I really thought implementing a 10 day 'curfew' 2 days later was brutal meaning we can't leave the home for any reason accept food shopping

Now 2 days later (because some people were still food shopping) we've moved to a no notice 1 week total lockdown of all food stores with the curfew in place, just as pay day approachs 

A lot of people are not gonna have a week's food at home


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## rudebhoy (Mar 25, 2020)

CliveW said:



			My son has been in in the Antarctic since October and now trying to get home. Unfortunately all scheduled flights from South America are cancelled so the only hope now appears to be a flight out to the Falklands and an RAF flight back to the UK.
		
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Not being funny, but maybe it would be a better option for him to stay there and wait it out.


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## BrianM (Mar 25, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			What line of work you in Brian.
		
Click to expand...

Offshore Marine Queen 😂


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## BrianM (Mar 25, 2020)

CliveW said:



			My son has been in in the Antarctic since October and now trying to get home. Unfortunately all scheduled flights from South America are cancelled so the only hope now appears to be a flight out to the Falklands and an RAF flight back to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Hope he gets back Clive 👍🏻


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2020)

Orikoru said:



*I think maybe we could all stop hammering Tashy now?* I have to be honest if we had invested money in a holiday and the airline didn't cancel it for us, I'd have had a hard time deciding what to do, and probably leaned on the side of going and avoiding the tug-of-war around getting a refund and so on.

Tashy maybe don't comment on people's movements anymore as you're going to get jumped on every time. 

Click to expand...

Maybe if he stopped hammering us with utter  there wouldn't be an issue?  Just saying.


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

Anyway, it's a beautiful morning


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Anyway, it's a beautiful morning  

Click to expand...

Wonder if there is some kind of scientific link between reduced pollution levels and the weather getting nicer? Either that or mother nature just being a cow


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## 2blue (Mar 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Wonder if there is some kind of scientific link between reduced pollution levels and the weather getting nicer? Either that or mother nature just being a cow
		
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Certainly makes Extinction Rebellion's efforts look very minor. Just what will we learn from this?


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2020)

2blue said:



			Certainly makes Extinction Rebellion's efforts look very minor. Just what will we learn from this?
		
Click to expand...

I will predict now bugger all

Apparently sat images over China show the smog gone already and Venice the water is clear 

If we could shut down the world for 1 month a year imagine how the planet could recover 

Around December time tie in for Xmas lol 

Money talks though won't happen


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

Madrid no longer the epicentre for infection in Spain. Strangely enough its the 2 regions that the majority of Madridians escaped to just over a week ago.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Madrid no longer the epicentre for infection in Spain. Strangely enough its the 2 regions that the majority of Madridians escaped to just over a week ago.
		
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Aye, I'm fully expecting Liverpool to be hit with a wave, after 3500 Madridians were allowed to come to our city without restriction  a fortnight or so  ago.


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## bluewolf (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Madrid no longer the epicentre for infection in Spain. Strangely enough its the 2 regions that the majority of Madridians escaped to just over a week ago.
		
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Unfortunately, my Sister lives in a region that was flooded by those from Madrid... To say the locals weren't happy is an understatement!


----------



## DRW (Mar 25, 2020)

UK chemical giant Ineos is set to build a plant within about 10 days dedicated to hand sanitiser near Middlesbrough. It’s thought that it will produce one million bottles a month.

Tom Crotty, the firm’s director, spoke to the BBC’s Today programme.

“We already make the fundamental raw material, ethanol, at one of our sites. It was apparent that there just wasn’t enough gel in the market for people to get - certainly not enough for the NHS, but even on the supermarket shelves. So why not make the gel ourselves, bottle it and get it out there?”

He added: “We already have expertise in this area, we have a spare building we can use, we’re installing the new kit as we speak and we’re hoping to have production up and running within those 10 days.

“Normally, we’d spend six months researching a market. But we’ve done none of that - we thought let’s just start and see how it goes.”
		
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Love some of the 'feel good' stories that keep appearing among the many bad stories.

Every little step...


----------



## CliveW (Mar 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Not being funny, but maybe it would be a better option for him to stay there and wait it out.
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts too, but they're rapidly heading into winter down there and accommodation is pretty poor.


----------



## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Aye, I'm fully expecting Liverpool to be hit with a wave, after 3500 Madridians were allowed to come to our city without restriction  a fortnight or so  ago.
		
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I’ve just read that your numbers are increasing greater by the day than any other city/region!

Stay safe.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Madrid no longer the epicentre for infection in Spain. Strangely enough its the 2 regions that the majority of Madridians escaped to just over a week ago.
		
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And how are you doing?


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

drdel said:



			And how are you doing?
		
Click to expand...

Feel better than yesterday afternoon. Just a banging head and coughing up not nice stuff. The sun is out today, after 3 days rain. Pot of coffee and the online papers on the terrace is the plan.


----------



## CliveW (Mar 25, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Hope he gets back Clive 👍🏻
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Brian, I'm sure he will but it will be a marathon as the regular refuelling stops at Ascension and Cape Verde have closed so alternatives will need to be found.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			De-spidered the shed and put another shelf up in there, plus a place to hang stuff. Then scarified the lawn.  Cracking days work. Tomorrow? Well I've got loads to do so not sure what will take priority.
		
Click to expand...

Did my lawn the crap that comes off is amazing.
Hope you didn’t kill any spiders they keep the flies down?
Going to be a lot of nice gardens this summer.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Feel better than yesterday afternoon. Just a banging head and coughing up not nice stuff. The sun is out today, after 3 days rain. Pot of coffee and the online papers on the terrace is the plan.
		
Click to expand...

That’s a good sign just sounds like chest infection.
It’s weird that you can be pleased you only have a chest infection.
Take care.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

I don't understand why the government is not able to simply say that all zero hours contract workers (not covered by measures already announced) and all self-employed -  will get a flat rate payment direct from government of £1000/month (an amount often mentioned in context of Universal Basic Income).

With mortgage payments deferred and all other payment to CCs and Lenders on hold, plus no risk of eviction through non-payment of rent (landlords can apply separately for loss of income) that gives every family £250/week for food (remembering that only essential food can be bought and plenty of us already have food for a week or three) and power (if you pay through a meter).

And in these difficult months ahead £250/week is surely sufficient for any family?  What is it that I am missing?


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242738723466469380


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't understand why the government is not able to simply say that all zero hours contract workers (not covered by measures already announced) and all self-employed -  will get a flat rate payment direct from government of £1000/month (an amount often mentioned in context of Universal Basic Income).

With mortgage payments deferred and all other payment to CCs and Lenders on hold, plus no risk of eviction through non-payment of rent (landlords can apply separately for loss of income) that gives every family £250/week for food (remembering that only essential food can be bought and plenty of us already have food for a week or three) and power (if you pay through a meter).

And in these difficult months ahead £250/week is surely sufficient for any family?  What is it that I am missing?
		
Click to expand...

£250 p/week for food, seriously 😳


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			£250 p/week for food, seriously 😳
		
Click to expand...

He must be shopping in Harrods.
£150 should do a family of four easy.


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			£250 p/week for food, seriously 😳
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			that gives every family £250/week for food (remembering that only essential food can be bought and plenty of us already have food for a week or three) *and power *(if you pay through a meter).
		
Click to expand...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			He must be shopping in Harrods.
£150 should do a family of four easy.
		
Click to expand...

I'm just using £1000 per month as an example.  OK then.  The government gives every zero hours contract worker and everyone self-employed £500 / month.  Straight off.  No issues - no checking or means testing.  And if we are that concerned about the cost to the country then it counts as income for 2020/21 SA tax return.  But I know that my lad puts about £40 / week into the meter for gas and leccy.  So make it £625 /month assuming £125/month gas and leccy - and £125/week food.  And whatever it is, it counts as income for 20/21 tax return


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’ve just read that your numbers are increasing greater by the day than any other city/region!

Stay safe.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers fishy, hopefully I'll be ok. Been eating well and having extra vitamins etc, my main concern is my 86yr old auld girl. 

Not seen her for 5 weeks and genuinely frightened to go and see her. I know this will finish her off if she gets it.

Worrying times for all.


----------



## funkycoldmedina (Mar 25, 2020)

Prince Charles has tested positive.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Prince Charles has tested positive.
		
Click to expand...

Rich looking after the rich eh.

Terrible  news, really upsetting bout Charlie, glad he's been tested While frontline workers arent being tested. 

What a complete and utter feck up.


----------



## Andy (Mar 25, 2020)

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...cebook&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1585087009

Unbelievable the disregard for Health and safety compared to profit.


----------



## DRW (Mar 25, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Prince Charles has tested positive.
		
Click to expand...

How the hell was their trip upto balmoral essential and probably had symptoms before.

Put more people at risk and probably has staff in both locations.


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 25, 2020)

all hail king Billy .


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm just using £1000 per month as an example.  OK then.  The government gives every zero hours contract worker and everyone self-employed £500 / month.  Straight off.  No issues - no checking or means testing.  And if we are that concerned about the cost to the country then it counts as income for 2020/21 SA tax return.  But I know that my lad puts about £40 / week into the meter for gas and leccy.  So make it £625 /month assuming £125/month gas and leccy - and £125/week food.  And whatever it is, it counts as income for 20/21 tax return
		
Click to expand...

So no means test, thus your saying your lad needs £125 p/week for food! 

I think you live in a different world to most of us.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 25, 2020)

The situation on the Tubes is critical. Boris should order that all tube drivers
must be tested, including those who are presently self isolating.
If they are "clear" they must return to work ( they are safe as they drive in a cab , alone, do they not).
Restore all tube services, and take the decision making from Khan.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm just using £1000 per month as an example.  OK then.  The government gives every zero hours contract worker and everyone self-employed £500 / month.  Straight off.  No issues - no checking or means testing.  And if we are that concerned about the cost to the country then it counts as income for 2020/21 SA tax return.  But I know that my lad puts about £40 / week into the meter for gas and leccy.  So make it £625 /month assuming £125/month gas and leccy - and £125/week food.  And whatever it is, it counts as income for 20/21 tax return
		
Click to expand...

£40 a week for gas and electricity?  I pay around £70 a month, what is he doing with it?


----------



## patricks148 (Mar 25, 2020)

My brother who’s in IT and lives in Dubai, was heading back there after working in Dakar, not allowed in and was re direct to Edinburgh where he booked into a B&B, can fly back in two weeks. God knows what he is doing with himself there with nothing open or how he is doing food wis


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			£40 a week for gas and electricity?  I pay around £70 a month, what is he doing with it?
		
Click to expand...

Pre payment meters cost are significantly higher, they're easier for some people to budget but costs more.


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## Robster59 (Mar 25, 2020)

The missus and I went for our "big shop" today.  Having two "at risk" people in the house we really didn't want to go but had to as we can't get home delivery. 
We went to our local Waitrose.  They were only letting 30 shoppers in at a time.  There was a small queue outside but we only had to wait a few minutes before we got in.  They had already cleaned all the trolleys and asking people to keep their distances (although some, once inside, still didn't get it and we had to tell a couple to move away as they were too busy trying to get items rather than wait).  The shelves were reasonably well stocked and we managed to get most things we needed but they had no peas, very little cleaning spray, no paper tissues.  We didn't go mad, just got what we needed and enough frozen stuff that will keep for a while but made sure we didn't go mad.   
It was very stressful as my missus was getting herself hyped over concerns about cross contamination, and is just about cooling down now.  But at least it means that we don't have to go out again for some time.   
*AND I FORGOT TO GET SOME BEER! *


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			£40 a week for gas and electricity?  I pay around £70 a month, what is he doing with it?
		
Click to expand...

We pay £1300 a year - we are in Surrey - he is in Sheffield.  He is on a meter.  His partner is at home all day every day. He is looking to come off it.  But at his current pre-payment rate this is what it costs him.  Have you not read how much more expensive pre-pay rates are?


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			The missus and I went for our "big shop" today.  Having two "at risk" people in the house we really didn't want to go but had to as we can't get home delivery.
We went to our local Waitrose.  They were only letting 30 shoppers in at a time.  There was a small queue outside but we only had to wait a few minutes before we got in.  They had already cleaned all the trolleys and asking people to keep their distances (although some, once inside, still didn't get it and we had to tell a couple to move away as they were too busy trying to get items rather than wait).  The shelves were reasonably well stocked and we managed to get most things we needed but they had no peas, very little cleaning spray, no paper tissues.  We didn't go mad, just got what we needed and enough frozen stuff that will keep for a while but made sure we didn't go mad.  
It was very stressful as my missus was getting herself hyped over concerns about cross contamination, and is just about cooling down now.  But at least it means that we don't have to go out again for some time.  
*AND I FORGOT TO GET SOME BEER! *

Click to expand...

Just out of interest, why did you both go?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			So no means test, thus your saying your lad needs £125 p/week for food!

I think you live in a different world to most of us.
		
Click to expand...

Jeezus!!  I WAS NOT SAYING THAT THAT IS HOW MUCH IT SHOULD BE. My son lives on average less than £10/day for food and drink and all shopping if you must know.

OK let's say £75/week for a family of four - is that OK?  Plus say £125/month electricity.  That's £425 /month.  Is that little enough?  Just pay that to zero hours contract workers and self-employed. 

How much do you want to screw these individuals and families down...?  Just pay it out and account for it as 20/21 income in any SA Tax return.


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## Robster59 (Mar 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Just out of interest, why did you both go?
		
Click to expand...

Why not?  Because she gets stressed shopping on her own and she doesn't trust me to get everything right.  
We were both extremely careful, wore gloves, even wiped down the handles on the car.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 25, 2020)

just been to sainsburys. had to queue for 10 mins to get in - one out, one in - but once in, nice and quiet. only stuff missing was loo roll and tea bags.


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Why not?  Because she gets stressed shopping on her own and she doesn't trust me to get everything right. 
We were both extremely careful, wore gloves, even wiped down the handles on the car.
		
Click to expand...

I only asked as my next door neighbours both went too. Both in their mid 70s


----------



## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jeezus!!  I WAS NOT SAYING THAT THAT IS HOW MUCH IT SHOULD BE. My son lives on less than £10/day for food if you must know.

OK let's say £75/week for a family of four - is that OK?  Plus say £125/month electricity.  That's £425 /month.  Is that little enough?  Just pay that to zero hours contract workers and self-employed.

How much do you want to screw these individuals and families down...?
		
Click to expand...

😂😂

It’s no wonder he hasn’t done his accounts, not there can be that much info to calculate, and especially if he takes after you, he's probably on some other social media forum writing pie in sky rubbish like you all day 😂😂


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 25, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			all hail king Billy .

Click to expand...

My gran went into a care home a number of years ago, she had dementia. She was in Liverpool, born and lived there all of her life. One time I was in visiting and we were sat with her in the main lounge area. Out of nowhere she lifted her glass and shouted that same phrase. 15 or so other dementia hit patients suddenly bolted upright and shouted it out as well. I had no idea what it meant, my dad shook his head as I was about to ask. In the car on the way home he explained it to me, he was mortified. I had never heard her say that phrase before, that is dementia for you. (the Liverpool lads will certainly get this story)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			😂😂

It’s no wonder he hasn’t done his accounts, not there can be that much info to calculate, and especially if he takes after you, he's probably on some other social media forum writing pie in sky rubbish like you all day 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

FFS What on earth are you complaining about?  what is Pie-in-the-Sky about it?

I'm simply suggesting that the government could pay out a basic amount now to ALL zero hours works and self-employed to enable them to feed themselves and pay for power and gas.  I am not suggesting ANYTHING else - and this has nothing to do with what my son might need.

Just a simple quick non-means tested payment that could be done almost immediately - and if the government needed the money back it could be included as income in a SA tax return any recipients do for 20/21.

Rather than just scoff and dismiss how about telling me what the problem with that is - which is after all what I asked at the outset.

Individuals and families just need a bit of income to keep themselves going for the next few months.  Not a lot - just enough.


----------



## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			FFS What on earth are you complaining about?  what is Pie-in-the-Sky about it?

I'm simply suggesting that the government could pay out a basic amount now to ALL zero hours works and self-employed to enable them to feed themselves and pay for power and gas.  I am not suggesting ANYTHING else - and this has nothing to do with what my son might need.

Just a simple quick non-means tested payment that could be done almost immediately - and if the government needed the money back it could be included as income in a SA tax return any recipients do for 20/21.

Rather than just scoff and dismiss how about telling me what the problem with that is - which is after all what I asked at the outset.

Individuals and families just need a bit of income to keep themselves going for the next few months.  Not a lot - just enough.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of zero hour staff will work significantly less than full time.

Most at a guess will be on 16 hours or less as they’re either students, part time or claiming benefits. To blanket pay a set figure is not the way to go.

They do need to make a ruling on it. But its complicated, which is why it is taking time. Continually beating the same drum is getting somewhat tiresome. Hence some rather blunt responses on here.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't understand why the government is not able to simply say that all zero hours contract workers (not covered by measures already announced) and all self-employed -  will get a flat rate payment direct from government of £1000/month (an amount often mentioned in context of Universal Basic Income).

With mortgage payments deferred and all other payment to CCs and Lenders on hold, plus no risk of eviction through non-payment of rent (landlords can apply separately for loss of income) that gives every family £250/week for food (remembering that only essential food can be bought and plenty of us already have food for a week or three) and power (if you pay through a meter).

And in these difficult months ahead £250/week is surely sufficient for any family?  What is it that I am missing?
		
Click to expand...

Do you think that they and self employed deserve more than those who might currently be on benefits.


----------



## pendodave (Mar 25, 2020)

The good citizens of east Herts are a rule abiding lot. On my way into work noticed that there are only 4 cars in the station car park (maybe 80 slots) and about 10 people on the train into London (which is running a half service).


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Rich looking after the rich eh.

Terrible  news, really upsetting bout Charlie, glad he's been tested While frontline workers arent being tested.

What a complete and utter feck up.
		
Click to expand...

I think it was more over concerns with the large amount of cross contamination that might have occurred due to the last large public meeting he was engaged in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Lots of zero hour staff will work significantly less than full time.

Most at a guess will be on 16 hours or less as they’re either students, part time or claiming benefits. To blanket pay a set figure is not the way to go.

They do need to make a ruling on it. But its complicated, which is why it is taking time. Continually beating the same drum is getting somewhat tiresome. Hence some rather blunt responses on here.
		
Click to expand...


£425/month - *per month *- is diddly squat in the great scheme of things when the government is paying 80% of salaries to all employees.

It is not based on earnings - it is based on the basic NEED to buy food and power/gas.  Why make it difficult.  Why try and find reasons to NOT support those whose income has dropped to ZERO.  Yes there will be many for whom £425 / month is more than they earn in a month - but any earnings-based payment will see very many being paid a great deal more.

Indeed £425 is only just above the maximum you can get on UC.  So avoid the cost and delay of means or earning testing or trying to claim UC - and just pay it out.  £2.7bn / month.  And get much of it back through 20/21 SA Tax return


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			FFS What on earth are you complaining about?  what is Pie-in-the-Sky about it?

I'm simply suggesting that the government could pay out a basic amount now to ALL zero hours works and self-employed to enable them to feed themselves and pay for power and gas.  I am not suggesting ANYTHING else - and this has nothing to do with what my son might need.

Just a simple quick non-means tested payment that could be done almost immediately - and if the government needed the money back it could be included as income in a SA tax return any recipients do for 20/21.

Rather than just scoff and dismiss how about telling me what the problem with that is - which is after all what I asked at the outset.

Individuals and families just need a bit of income to keep themselves going for the next few months.  Not a lot - just enough.
		
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It might be a good idea to take a breath before posting. 

I recognise your son's earnings are not good but he made his own career choice and at age 27 should be capable of caring for himself: posting on here and constantly moaning about what the Government has done will change nothing.

We are in exceptional circumstances and the medical profession and Government machine is trying its best to plot a path for everyone. None of this can happen in an instant so there will be issues as things are corrected and revised because the plans must be for the majority with refinements for minorities.


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## Paperboy (Mar 25, 2020)

Went to my local Sainbury's this morning, they are limiting it to 20 customers in the store at any one time.

7:30 to 8:00 for NHS and essentially workers, 8:00 to 9:00 for the OAP's and the vulnerable.
Had to wait in the glorious sunshine for 30 minutes, keeping 2m away from people in the queue. Got everything I needed but forgot the mushrooms


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think it was more over concerns with the large amount of cross contamination that might have occurred due to the last large public meeting he was engaged in.
		
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On that basis will all of those who have been in contact with him be tested? Doubt it. Will be told to self isolate.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The situation on the Tubes is critical. Boris should order that all tube drivers
must be tested, including those who are presently self isolating.
If they are "clear" they must return to work ( they are safe as they drive in a cab , alone, do they not).
Restore all tube services, and take the decision making from Khan.
		
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Or, better still, shut down ALL non-essential workplaces...


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Do you think that they and self employed deserve more than those who might currently be on benefits.
		
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Can I answer this?? 

I think all self employed who have paid tax and are now out of work and struggling should be getting the exact same as the employed lot are getting I this time of need. 

This isnt a free for all let's get as much as we can. It's about helping those who are genuinely in need of help at this worrying time.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			On that basis will all of those who have been in contact with him be tested? Doubt it. Will be told to self isolate.
		
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No, but we'll all know who to stay away from


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Can I answer this??

I think all self employed who have paid tax and are now out of work and struggling should be getting the exact same as the employed lot are getting I this time of need.

This isnt a free for all let's get as much as we can. It's about helping those who are genuinely in need of help at this worrying time.
		
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Agree but it's a difficult balance that that the simple service have to make.


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 25, 2020)

This distancing is and isnt working.

Out on the streets and at many locations it’s fine.

Waitrose had a two hour queue just to get in and everyone keeping 3m apart.

Nisa Local has no restrictions on entry and people in there 3 feet apart at most, pushing past in the small aisles etc. I tried to social distance in there but others made it impossible. I was in and out in 10 mins as it was so uncomfortable I just grabbed what I needed, paid (a very exposed employee) and left.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

drdel said:



			It might be a good idea to take a breath before posting.

I recognise your son's earnings are not good but he made his own career choice and at age 27 should be capable of caring for himself: posting on here and constantly moaning about what the Government has done will change nothing.

We are in exceptional circumstances and the medical profession and Government machine is trying its best to plot a path for everyone. None of this can happen in an instant so there will be issues as things are corrected and revised because the plans must be for the majority with refinements for minorities.
		
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It's got NOTHING to do with my son - absolutely nothing at all.  We can afford to support him through this no matter what. 

I am actually thinking about the 4.8m self-employed and 1.5m zero hours contract works who might not have a fall back such as my son has.  And whose income has dropped instantly to ZERO.

I repeat.  This has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY SON.

What is the problem with paying everyone £425/month when the government is paying 80% of employees salaries - and these figures will be in general very much more than £425/month.

If you think these 6.3m individuals are just going to have to wait - then fine - that's for you to think - but it's not how I think. We have to get some *immediate *guarantee of money to workers who continue to work - and cram onto the underground in London - because they have no other source of income.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

For central London the tube shouldn't be an issue, just run trains round the south circular in 10 min intervals. Everywhere is within walking distance from the central line.


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## CliveW (Mar 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			How the hell was their trip upto balmoral essential and probably had symptoms before.

Put more people at risk and probably has staff in both locations.
		
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I thought people were being urged not to travel to second homes if suffering Covid 19


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's got NOTHING to do with my son - absolutely nothing at all.  We can afford to support him through this no matter what.

I am actually thinking about the 4.8m self-employed and 1.5m zero hours contract works who might not have a fall back such as my son has.  And whose income has dropped instantly to ZERO.

I repeat.  This has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY SON.

What is the problem with paying everyone £425/month when the government is paying 80% of employees salaries - and these figures will be in general very much more than £425/month.

If you think these 6.3m individuals are just going to have to wait - then fine - that's for you to think - but it's not how I think. We have to get some *immediate *guarantee of money to workers who continue to work - and cram onto the underground in London - because they have no other source of income.
		
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Everything is going through HMRC, they know exactly what people have been earning prior to this and what benefits they are on. All they need to do is take and average of a number of months and hey presto they know Ho will much the person has managed on before.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Anyway, we should all move to the states, it will be all over by Easter.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2020)

There's a possibility of an announcement on self employed package late today but if not then almost certainly tomorrow 
So says Martin Lewis.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Everything is going through HMRC, they know exactly what people have been earning prior to this and what benefits they are on. All they need to do is take and average of a number of months and hey presto they know Ho will much the person has managed on before.
		
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And I bet that for the vast majority it is a lot more than £425/month - and can you just imagine the strain that HMRC and DWP are under at the moment.  Why wait - why faff about.  Just pay something like £425/month to everyone whose income is now ZERO and would be eligible for the maximum under UC which is £500/month for a couple both over 25.

I am sorry - I just do not get the issue that some on here have with making an instant payment of relatively little - consistent with what they'd be due under UC in any case - that means 6m families don't have to worry about food on their table and their lights and heating being on.  

And it also means they immediately don't have to go to work and so help with damping down the acceleration in growth of infections.  Is that not after all the bottom line of what MUST be achieved.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 25, 2020)

The programme of work I am on has been terminated due to Covid-19. My contract has been terminated with it. As a Contractor I will be entitled to very little. Its also unclear what "net earnings" mean from a freelance worker point of view. No explanation has been given, nor if you are entitled under the support if you have been terminated. 

Luckily I am a career contractor so know to keep a bit aside for contract gaps and downtime. Many , I suspect, will not have had that foresight.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			There's a possibility of an announcement on self employed package late today but if not then almost certainly tomorrow 
So says Martin Lewis.
		
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There already has been in the draft legislation. But it mentions nett earnings with no clarity on what they include as nett when it comes to Freelance/ Contract work.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We pay £1300 a year - we are in Surrey - he is in Sheffield.  He is on a meter.  His partner is at home all day every day. He is looking to come off it.  But at his current pre-payment rate this is what it costs him.  Have you not read how much more expensive pre-pay rates are?
		
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 Some Pensioners are expected to manage on the basic state pension of £129.20 a week


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## PieMan (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is the problem with paying everyone £425/month when the government is paying 80% of employees salaries - and these figures will be in general very much more than £425/month.

If you think these 6.3m individuals are just going to have to wait - then fine - that's for you to think - but it's not how I think. We have to get some *immediate *guarantee of money to workers who continue to work - and cram onto the underground in London - because they have no other source of income.
		
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.

You've made some valid points in your posts but I would expect no-one on here can tell you, even if they did work for HMT or HMRC as Government policy is changing rapidly given the circumstances we're in.

Have you thought about actually e-mailing Treasury and HMRC? Their contact details can be found on GOV.UK.

Failing that, you could read the latest Government advice and guidance on there too.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I bet that for the vast majority it is a lot more than £425/month - and can you just imagine the strain that HMRC and DWP are under at the moment.  Why wait - why faff about.  Just pay something like £425/month to everyone whose income is now ZERO and would be eligible for the maximum under UC which is £500/month for a couple both over 25.

I am sorry - I just do not get the issue that some on here have with making an instant payment of relatively little - consistent with what they'd be due under UC in any case - that means 6m families don't have to worry about food on their table and their lights and heating being on. 

And it also means they immediately don't have to go to work and so help with damping down the acceleration in growth of infections.  Is that not after all the bottom line of what MUST be achieved.
		
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I know exactly the strain that the DWP and HMRC are under at the present and I can assure you they are working as hard as they can to ensure things happen as fast as they can.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Agree but it's a difficult balance that that the simple service have to make.
		
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It is a difficult balance but it’s one that NEEDS to be done and sharpish.  3 months money will go above and beyond and will leave extra money for people to spend once we come out of this to put back into the economy. If SE are only allowed to claim the £94.25 that will leave a massive hole in their finances and leave little, if any, extra in the pocket to put back into the economy.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			It is a difficult balance but it’s one that NEEDS to be done and sharpish.  3 months money will go above and beyond and will leave extra money for people to spend once we come out of this to put back into the economy. If SE are only allowed to claim the £94.25 that will leave a massive hole in their finances and leave little, if any, extra in the pocket to put back into the economy.
		
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Unfortunately as is normal the few are cocking it up for the many. An article yesterday where a single woman saying that she requires an income that matches her current earnings. She finds it difficult to survive on, after her mortgage is taken out £900 a month. She needs to join me on some of the cases I deal with.


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## SatchFan (Mar 25, 2020)

If seagulls can manage it........


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## Cake (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately as is normal the few are cocking it up for the many. An article yesterday where a single woman saying that she requires an income that matches her current earnings. She finds it difficult to survive on, after her mortgage is taken out £900 a month. She needs to join me on some of the cases I deal with.
		
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Agreed - If that is the same article I saw then she phrased it as “without the mortgage my essential bills total £948 a month... how is £94.25 going to pay anyone’s bills?”  My first thought was that I’d love to know what the lady deemed ‘essential’, and whether many would agree that they were essential.  I guess Childcare and Council Tax could be significant, but what else Could push it to £900+ per month!  And that there are definitely MANY people getting by on a lot less than that.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Sounds a proper nightmare, hope it all gets sorted soon 👍🏻👍🏻
		
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Some good news, my daughter contacted social services and explained the situation, they then contacted the site and told them not to evict them until they find them temporary accommodation. Phew !!


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## huds1475 (Mar 25, 2020)

PieMan said:



			.

You've made some valid points in your posts but I would expect no-one on here can tell you, even if they did work for HMT or HMRC as Government policy is changing rapidly given the circumstances we're in.

Have you thought about actually e-mailing Treasury and HMRC? Their contact details can be found on GOV.UK.

Failing that, you could read the latest Government advice and guidance on there too.
		
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Ask the people delivering the service?

That's just plain crazy-talk


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Some Pensioners are expected to manage on the basic state pension of £129.20 a week
		
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Indeed - and that £420/month has to somehow cover ALL costs. 

At the moment the only unavoidable outgoings that most of us will have will be food and power/gas.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I know exactly the strain that the DWP and HMRC are under at the present and I can assure you they are working as hard as they can to ensure things happen as fast as they can.
		
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I am not suggesting for a second otherwise.  But that's not the point.  We want workers not travelling to work NOW.  Many thousands continue to travel because they have no guaranteed income to buy food next month.  

All the government needs to say TODAY is something along the lines of the government will *guarantee *a payment of £500 / month (or whatever) to all zero-hrs workers and self-employed at the end of this month or start of next.  They might say they will look at a scheme that might pay more on a previous-earnings related basis for subsequent months - but the £500/month is guaranteed for all.  Note that a 16hr week on the minimum wage pays £140/week - so £560 / month.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Cake said:



			Agreed - If that is the same article I saw then she phrased it as “without the mortgage my essential bills total £948 a month... how is £94.25 going to pay anyone’s bills?”  My first thought was that I’d love to know what the lady deemed ‘essential’, and whether many would agree that they were essential.  I guess Childcare and Council Tax could be significant, but what else Could push it to £900+ per month!  And that there are definitely MANY people getting by on a lot less than that.
		
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The question in that respect becomes - what are her *essential *bills/payments that are not being waived or put on hold for the duration of the crisis.  My son has had payment of his council tax arrears and payments for the coming year put on hold for 3months (as of yesterday).  There was nothing specific to him about that decision made by Sheffield City Council.


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## Wolf (Mar 25, 2020)

Cake said:



			Agreed - If that is the same article I saw then she phrased it as “without the mortgage my essential bills total £948 a month... how is £94.25 going to pay anyone’s bills?”  My first thought was that I’d love to know what the lady deemed ‘essential’, and whether many would agree that they were essential.  I guess Childcare and Council Tax could be significant, but what else Could push it to £900+ per month!  And that there are definitely MANY people getting by on a lot less than that.
		
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I assumed she meant that's all her bills excluding mortgage, so car finance, mobile, other loans it can soon add up for some people. According to step change.org priority of bills should be as follows in order :

Mortgage or secured loan
Rent
Council tax
Child maintenance
Magistrates fines
Tax, VAT, NI
CCJ
TV licence
Utility bills
HP finance
Telephone

So if she has all of those which is very possible. So her outgoing would be high but she could contact them in this situation and ask for a payment holiday, whether granted it or not is down to those who she owes.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The question in that respect becomes - what are her *essential *bills/payments that are not being waived or put on hold for the duration of the crisis.  My son has had payment of his council tax arrears and payments for the coming year put on hold for 3months (as of yesterday).  There was nothing specific to him about that decision made by Sheffield City Council.
		
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You like to state and shout it’s not about your son, but you constantly bring him into it, so, before this outbreak he was also in arrears with his council tax, so he doesn’t manage himself and money very well, does he? But hey, let’s throw some tax payers money at him, to squander away!  You also stated his partner is at home all day every day, why?


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I assumed she meant that's all her bills excluding mortgage, so car finance, mobile, other loans it can soon add up for some people. According to step change.org priority of bills should be as follows in order :

Mortgage or secured loan
Rent
Council tax
Child maintenance
Magistrates fines
Tax, VAT, NI
CCJ
TV licence
Utility bills
HP finance
Telephone

So if she has all of those which is very possible. So her outgoing would be high but she could contact them in this situation and ask for a payment holiday, whether granted it or not is down to those who she owes.
		
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I think there's someone's son should really consider contacting StepChange, they are a very good organisation.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Cake said:



			Agreed - If that is the same article I saw then she phrased it as “without the mortgage my essential bills total £948 a month... how is £94.25 going to pay anyone’s bills?”  My first thought was that I’d love to know what the lady deemed ‘essential’, and whether many would agree that they were essential.  I guess Childcare and Council Tax could be significant, but what else Could push it to £900+ per month!  *And that there are definitely MANY people getting by on a lot less than that*.
		
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Yes, living in poverty, robbing Peter to pay Paul, often going without hot meals and or heating.

My opinion is if you’ve paid into the pot, in your hour of NEED you should be supported. Isn’t that what the welfare state was about?


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2020)

Isolation Day 2..
I'm feeling quite chipper 
Apart from sniffles that I've had for months I'm feeling fine
Herself is still coughing but it seems to be less - got a feeling it's just a cold but....
The Boy?...eating pizza
All's quiet of the western front


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Isolation Day 2..
I'm feeling quite chipper
Apart from sniffles that I've had for months I'm feeling fine
Herself is still coughing but it seems to be less - got a feeling it's just a cold but....
The Boy?...eating pizza
All's quiet of the western front
		
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Great news old boy👍🏻


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Today my exercise allowance was combined with a visit to the local shop, 5 mile round trip, who knew you can walk to shops.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

There seems to an emphasis on paying out to the Self Employed, but although there is a message to Stay at Home, the government also do not want to stop businesses from trading working, including the SE, if they can do safely.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			You like to state and shout it’s not about your son, but you constantly bring him into it, so, before this outbreak he was also in arrears with his council tax, so he doesn’t manage himself and money very well, does he? But hey, let’s throw some tax payers money at him, to squander away!  You also stated his partner is at home all day every day, why?
		
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I use him as an example - because he has had council tax payments put on hold then so can anyone.  I mention him as I know it for a FACT - it is not an assertion or hope.  It's a FACT.

And we know that mortgage payments will be deferred or put on hold - and landlords will not be able to evict based upon non-payment of rent.  And I know for a fact that pretty much every other debt or payment an individual can have can be deferred or put onto a very low payment payment plan - and I know this for a fact as I have spent the last 4 months dong this.

You clearly don't understand how very low paid struggle from week to week, month to month.  Put money away - you are having a laugh.  It would be funny if it weren't sad that so many thoink that way about the poor.

And btw - is the government not throwing bucket loads of money at the employed but unable to work as their employers business has had to close or stop?  Money the employer and employee does NOT have to pay back even though things like mortgage can be deferred; added to outstanding loan; or load period extended.

Or is it that throwing money at the often much better off employed, is different from throwing money at the often very poor SE or ZHC.  Well for some it seems that it is.

BTW - as you like to have a go at my son.  He built up council tax arrears largely because he and his partner did not want to make *any *claims on the state for benefits (he has never in 6 yrs post-uni claimed a penny from the state in benefits - not one penny) - he wanted to try and make his own way without state support - but things didn't always turn out as he'd hope - as hard as he might try and as hard as he might work.


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Isolation Day 2..
I'm feeling quite chipper
Apart from sniffles that I've had for months I'm feeling fine
Herself is still coughing but it seems to be less - got a feeling it's just a cold but....
The Boy?...eating pizza
All's quiet of the western front
		
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Day 2. DAY 2!?!

You just wait till you hit day 12. You won't have changed your boxers for 5 days, nor seen the razor for a week - you've hidden that for safety reasons. There'll be eleventeen empty beer bottles next to your armchair, and that's just this morning's feast. You have the shakes as you reach for the whisky, with a fear of will it last.

The kitchen will be deemed the communal area/demilitarised zone, with each of you having your own room.

But don't worry, only 17 days more to go... hahahahahaha(demonic laugh)


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I use him as an example - because he has had council tax payments put on hold then so can anyone.  I mention him as I know it for a FACT - it is not an assertion or hope.  It's a FACT. 

And we know that mortgage payments will be deferred or put on hold - and landlords will not be able to evict based upon non-payment of rent.  And I know for a fact that pretty much every other debt or payment an individual can have can be deferred or put onto a very low payment payment plan - and I know this for a fact as I have spent the last 4 months dong this.
		
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Take a breath Hugh. It will be sorted when it is sorted. All you can do is make sure you can support him till then. Be concerned about everyone else in the same boat but don't let those concerns overwhelm you. Chill pill required.


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## Cake (Mar 25, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			My opinion is if you’ve paid into the pot, in your hour of NEED you should be supported. Isn’t that what the welfare state was about?
		
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I completely agree... my point was more around what some would define as ‘essential’ vs others, and by extension what would be a good number to meet the need.  Personally I am not sure how I would live on £94 a week, but also I am not sure how the girl got to £900 a month as her essential outgoings.

Thanks to Wolf’s post I’ve broadened my perspective a bit as I wouldn’t have thought to include CCJ’s or Magistrate’s fines... I guess that anything that you are committed to (through past actions or signing up for credit on phones/cars etc when things were going well) is an essential outgoing, even if you wouldn’t sign up for them now.

The problem is still therefore how to determine the right amount - means testing would make it cost more and take longer, and if you just cover peoples’ list of existing expenses then you risk alienating those that were perhaps more frugal etc.

Tough job all round, and I‘m glad I don’t have to square that circle.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 25, 2020)

Cake said:



			I completely agree... my point was more around what some would define as ‘essential’ vs others, and by extension what would be a good number to meet the need.  Personally I am not sure how I would live on £94 a week, but also I am not sure how the girl got to £900 as her essential outgoings.

Thanks to Wolf’s post I’ve broadened my perspective a bit as I wouldn’t have thought to include CCJ’s or Magistrate’s fines... I guess that anything that you are committed to (through past actions or signing up for credit on phones/cars etc when things were going well) is an essential outgoing, even if you wouldn’t sign up for them now.

The problem is still therefore how to determine the right amount - means testing would make it cost more and take longer, and if you just cover peoples’ list of existing expenses then you risk alienating those that were perhaps more frugal etc.

*Tough job all round, and I‘m glad I don’t have to square that circle*.
		
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100% agree

i think to level the SE/PAYE payment would be fair.


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## bluewolf (Mar 25, 2020)

Cake said:



			The problem is still therefore how to determine the right amount - means testing would make it cost more and take longer, and if you just cover peoples’ list of existing expenses then you risk alienating those that were perhaps more frugal etc.
		
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This the bit that really boils my piss. Why is it any of my business how much anyone else gets? I'm quite frugal. I don't have expensive outgoings particularly. But in a situation like this, why would I get worked up because someone is getting a bit more than me? As long as I can cover my essential (or better termed "unavoidable") outgoings then I don't care 2 pints of sick whatever anyone else gets..

 It's this attitude that is one of the most annoying things wrong with Society. People are more concerned about the perceived injustices, than they are about the actual ones.............


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2020)

The Tory party's largest donors....the construction industry, seem to now be influencing Government policy.
Nicola taking a totally different view in Scotland and is now setting up her own advisory group.


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## fundy (Mar 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Isolation Day 2..
I'm feeling quite chipper 
Apart from sniffles that I've had for months I'm feeling fine
Herself is still coughing but it seems to be less - got a feeling it's just a cold but....
The Boy?...eating pizza
All's quiet of the western front
		
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good to hear Ian


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Tory party's largest donors....the construction industry, *seem to now be influencing* Government policy.
Nicola taking a totally different view in Scotland and is now setting up her own advisory group.
		
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Why is everything  either a political conspiracy by Parliament or a Scotland v the rest of UK?


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I use him as an example - because he has had council tax payments put on hold then so can anyone.  I mention him as I know it for a FACT - it is not an assertion or hope.  It's a FACT.

And we know that mortgage payments will be deferred or put on hold - and landlords will not be able to evict based upon non-payment of rent.  And I know for a fact that pretty much every other debt or payment an individual can have can be deferred or put onto a very low payment payment plan - and I know this for a fact as I have spent the last 4 months dong this.

You clearly don't understand how very low paid struggle from week to week, month to month.  Put money away - you are having a laugh.  It would be funny if it weren't sad that so many thoink that way about the poor.

And btw - is the government not throwing bucket loads of money at the employed but unable to work as their employers business has had to close or stop?  Money the employer and employee does NOT have to pay back even though things like mortgage can be deferred; added to outstanding loan; or load period extended.

Or is it that throwing money at the often much better off employed, is different from throwing money at the often very poor SE or ZHC.  Well for some it seems that it is.

BTW - as you like to have a go at my son.  He built up council tax arrears largely because he and his partner did not want to make *any *claims on the state for benefits (he has never in 6 yrs post-uni claimed a penny from the state in benefits - not one penny) - he wanted to try and make his own way without state support - but things didn't always turn out as he'd hope - as hard as he might try and as hard as he might work.
		
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I’ve not had a go at your son, you’ve constantly brought him into the debates so it’s only right that he can be referred to, or is it only a one-way debate?  It may be admirable to not claim what he’s entitled to, but in his case, imo, it’s foolish, hence his arrears, and what of his partner, which in your own words, is home all day everyday, obviously not claiming if of the same ilk, obviously not working, so being supported by someone who can’t afford to support them and who’s morals outweigh sensibility! 

No doubt this is why you don’t want a means test, but I’d rather see one, then the right people get the right amount support!!


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Tory party's largest donors....the construction industry, seem to now be influencing Government policy.
Nicola taking a totally different view in Scotland and is now setting up her own advisory group.
		
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And there you have it. Oh hang on, she has been part of the policy making group working on and with Cobra, and has implemented jointly the instructions of the government, her only disagreement is over construction. She has been part of the system and acted responsibly.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 25, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe if he stopped hammering us with utter  there wouldn't be an issue?  Just saying.
		
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You know what it dont matter, ave gone through this thread to see what ave done wrong.
You know what..nowt.
I came away when the FOC said it was safe. Others came on holiday after me, others were hoping they could still go on holiday Others on here who have slagged me off had there holidays to different parts of the world cancelled by the same FOC Goverment dept. I adhered to the rules and others have. The difference is what?
My holiday is cut short because of the planks of this world that feel it is urgent to go to skegness for a candy floss. They could not understand the severity of this Covid. Something that you the forum members mentioned in great detail.
Guess what I put on a post about travel and Covid. My travel was deemed safe, the travellers to skegness etc not. And it is met by rabid abuse.
Scarcasm and the customary name calling which is now the norm. At the same time I am.looking from afar at a  country that has gone to shit. Panic buying, lack of social distancing, robbing of NHS badges, profiteering. My country looks ugly from afar.
Guess what I mentioned about having to look 2 kids when I got home. The Banshee wailing rea had fever pitch. My daughter had spoken to 111 re our situation. There answer, there are hundreds of thousands of kids that will be going from parent to parent. And grandparents. IT IS SAFE AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NO COVID SYMPTOMS.
We do not have to isolate because we are returning on a.plane..we have to isolate be cause stephen wanted his Candy floss at Skeggy.
You know what ave trawled through over 100 plus pages of this topic and I asked a question re who else could the government ask to get advice.
Ironically I found it on post 548 I think it was written by Ethan. It is the best post by a country mile on here and yet I feel hardly anyone has read it. It gave me the answers i were looking for yet my question was met once more with rammel.
This Covid topic had degenerated from an informative subject into the normal name calling sarcastic drivel that is becoming the norm. Grown men calling one another names.
I could go on, but am not gonna waste my breath.
Everyone look after yourselves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’ve not had a go at your son, you’ve constantly brought him into the debates so it’s only right that he can be referred to, or is it only a one-way debate?  It may be admirable to not claim what he’s entitled to, but in his case, imo, it’s foolish, hence his arrears, and what of his partner, which in your own words, is home all day everyday, obviously not claiming if of the same ilk, obviously not working, so being supported by someone who can’t afford to support them and who’s morals outweigh sensibility!

No doubt this is why you don’t want a means test, but I’d rather see one, then the right people get the right amount support!!
		
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Who says I don't want a means test?  I want whatever enables SE and those on ZHCs to be able to stop work NOW - whatever system that is - or guarantee is given - I frankly don't care. 

There doesn't seem to be any means testing whatsoever for those in 'normal' contacted hours employment - they are getting 80% of their monthly wage paid to them.  No means testing anywhere in sight as far as I can see.  So I don't know why there is a *need *to means-test SE or ZHCs.

Note: If my son is means tested he'll probably get significantly more than £500/month if it is means tested against say last 3months of income.


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## Cake (Mar 25, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			This the bit that really boils my piss. Why is it any of my business how much anyone else gets?
It's this attitude that is one of the most annoying things wrong with Society. People are more concerned about the perceived injustices, than they are about the actual ones.............
		
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Yep - sadly the “as long as I’m all right, Jack” attitude that seems to be prevalent in society (as evidenced by stockpiling etc) doesn’t seem to apply when it comes to looking over and being envious about what someone else might be getting.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm just using £1000 per month as an example.  OK then.  The government gives every zero hours contract worker and everyone self-employed £500 / month.  Straight off.  No issues - no checking or means testing.  And if we are that concerned about the cost to the country then it counts as income for 2020/21 SA tax return.  But I know that my lad puts about £40 / week into the meter for gas and leccy.  So make it £625 /month assuming £125/month gas and leccy - and £125/week food.  And whatever it is, it counts as income for 20/21 tax return
		
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Were just trying to lighten the mood no offence meant.
You are correct the government have been a bit slow on the self employed side of help.
But it must be a nightmare to implement.
The Torries think everyone has money in the bank like them so can self finance until they sort it out.
But in lots of cases that is just not true.
They have done a good job up to now but the fine details will take time.
I think your original £1000 monthly is not far off the mark, that’s only £12,000 a year after tax.
Although some don’t get anywhere near that.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 25, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Or, better still, shut down ALL non-essential workplaces...
		
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Agreed, except the "better still".
There would still be a large enough amount of people to make 2 metres spacing difficult. Make the volume capacity as big as possible and the user volume as low as possible, yes!


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

Numbers for the UK from the last 2 days.....

Number of new cases 24 Mar......1,427
Number of new cases 25 Mar......150

Number of deaths 24 Mar.....87
Number of deaths 25 Mar.....11

A long way to go, but encouraging.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think it was more over concerns with the large amount of cross contamination that might have occurred due to the last large public meeting he was engaged in.
		
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I would put money on frontline workers in the nhs meeting more people than Charlie.
My sons at home and his wife both nhs workers because they havnt been tested they can’t go back to work.
Priorities all wrong here.
But typical of treatment of the royals let’s be honest.


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## DRW (Mar 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Numbers for the UK from the last 2 days.....

Number of new cases 24 Mar......1,427
Number of new cases 25 Mar......150

Number of deaths 24 Mar.....87
Number of deaths 25 Mar.....11

A long way to go, but encouraging.
		
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Think England figures haven't been added yet, so only Wales/Scotland ?

Hope they have though


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who says I don't want a means test?  I want whatever enables SE and those on ZHCs to be able to stop work NOW - whatever system that is - or guarantee is given - I frankly don't care.

There doesn't seem to be any means testing whatsoever for those in 'normal' contacted hours employment - they are getting 80% of their monthly wage paid to them.  No means testing anywhere in sight as far as I can see.  So I don't know why there is a *need *to means-test SE or ZHCs.

Note: If my son is means tested he'll probably get significantly more than £500/month if it is means tested against say last 3months of income.
		
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So he’s earned well in the last 3 months yet is still in arrears! 

And now 3 times you’ve dodged the question regarding his partner, again you brought them into it, “home all day every day”, I guess there is no contribution coming from them, but they’re burning the oils all day every day, why is that? 

Late with his accounts, late with his bills, sounds like he’s got a freeloading partner, but hey, let’s throw a grand a month at them to help put back into the system, no doubt McDonalds, KFC and the local Curry House will benefit 😜


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			Think England figures haven't been added yet, so only Wales/Scotland ?

Hope they have though
		
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Doesn't say

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


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## DRW (Mar 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Doesn't say

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Click to expand...

Cheers.

From the link :-




*150 new cases* and *11 new deaths* in *the United Kingdom,150 new cases and 5 new deaths in Wales and 6 new deaths in Scotland. The figures for the rest of the UK have yet to be released * [source] [source]
		
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sad


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			Cheers.

From the link :-



sad 

Click to expand...

Thanks


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Day 2. DAY 2!?!

You just wait till you hit day 12. You won't have changed your boxers for 5 days, nor seen the razor for a week - you've hidden that for safety reasons. There'll be eleventeen empty beer bottles next to your armchair, and that's just this morning's feast. You have the shakes as you reach for the whisky, with a fear of will it last.

The kitchen will be deemed the communal area/demilitarised zone, with each of you having your own room.

But don't worry, only 17 days more to go... hahahahahaha(demonic laugh)
		
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To be fair Bri I'm kind of on day 7 with the exception of a couple of rounds last week and a trip to the shops.
But I do take your point....


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## Twire (Mar 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Numbers for the UK from the last 2 days.....

Number of new cases 24 Mar......1,427
Number of new cases 25 Mar......150

Number of deaths 24 Mar.....87
Number of deaths 25 Mar.....11

A long way to go, but encouraging.
		
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If you got those figures from the Worldometer web site, you might want to look at them again before midnight. It was the same yesterday, the final figures won't be posted yet.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 25, 2020)

I see off licenses have now been added to the list of essential businesses... Wonder if Tim will see that as an opportunity to reopen all the 'spoons as offies? All beer coming ready poured 😉...


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

Twire said:



			If you got those figures from the Worldometer web site, you might want to look at them again before midnight. It was the same yesterday, the final figures won't be posted yet.
		
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Already been pointed out thanks.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Prince Charles has tested positive.
		
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As long as his dad doesn’t drive him to AE he’ll be fine 😜


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## Twire (Mar 25, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Already been pointed out thanks.
		
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Yep, sorry I didn't read the rest of the thread before quoting your post


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## harpo_72 (Mar 25, 2020)

Brutally honest I have no idea where I stand in all of this .. I could be self employed or jobless but not claiming. I am living off a redundancy package which will run out at some point. Given the jobs market has completely dropped off the planet, I will be spinning my wheels for a bit longer. 
I am also a bit confused about the edict regards tenants, will the landlords get subsidised to the full amount plus what ever extra costs the banks choose to impose? 
Oh well never mind, just chill out and thank your lucky stars if you don’t get this or have to have the attention of the health service. 
Although if it’s any consolation you could live with my wife who has declared that we are on rations .. I get 1 square of chocolate, a piece of bread for my tea and my lunch is either fish finger and chips and peas or a 2/3 of a chicken kiev with chips and pees. despite my amazing chef skills .. I have lost 5lbs since Thursday last week.


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 25, 2020)

slightly off topivc but
 if you have caught  the virus but fortunately recovered from it ,can you catch it again or are you now immune ?
just wondering .


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2020)

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...catch-the-coronavirus-twice-we-dont-know-yet/


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			slightly off topivc but
if you have caught  the virus but fortunately recovered from it ,can you catch it again or are you now immune ?
just wondering .
		
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According to what I heard last night by the secretary, he said the MP who had it was back on the front bench because it’s highly unlikely to catch it again, but with this being a new unknown strain, not sure how they could know that yet?


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## harpo_72 (Mar 25, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			slightly off topivc but
if you have caught  the virus but fortunately recovered from it ,can you catch it again or are you now immune ?
just wondering .
		
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Yes, because you have the antibodies.. until it evolves or you get the new one which is from rats


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 25, 2020)

Is this global virus the World Wars our grandparents (or parents in some cases perhaps) had to deal with? Will the need for frugality be remembered by the current generations like the old ones did?
Will we return to the same old ways once we are through this or will we start to be more considered in our spending and the way we live our lives?


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			slightly off topivc but
if you have caught  the virus but fortunately recovered from it ,can you catch it again or are you now immune ?
just wondering .
		
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With most viruses that is true -  the jury is still out on CONV19 but experts 'think' it will behave the same - loads of antibody test will soon show if, once recovered, it does give immunity from future infection.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2020)

The science suggests that re-infection is unlikely at least in the short term
The did tests on some animals- infected them, they recovered, scientists tried to re-infect and they couldn't.
There are reports of a few re-infections but its thought those tests may be unreliable
Testing kits may be available very soon according to Sky news


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			slightly off topivc but
if you have caught  the virus but fortunately recovered from it ,can you catch it again or are you now immune ?
just wondering .
		
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When the genome was identified by the Chinese, they sent a copy of it to med labs/research facilities around the world. The genome from the first Spanish victim was identified by the lab at the University of Valencia as being a mutated version of the Chinese one. Similar enough to be recognised as a Coronavirus, but different enough to recognise it had undergone an antigenic shift.

If its very similar, the antibodies to developed against the first version should work. If its too different, who knows. Unfortunately, this also makes developing an effective vaccine a little harder.


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## larmen (Mar 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Testing kits may be available very soon according to Sky news
		
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I have seen that in some German news as well.


Has anyone seen the FT article about the Oxford University model that suggests that we had Corona for much longer over here and 50% already had it?

I can’t entirely believe it because the deaths are just starting now, on the other hand I find the infection rate of 1 to 2.5 quite low for a free roaming virus.

Didn’t go to Oxford, but I wish a successful antibodies test could prove them right.


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## DaveR (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			When the genome was identified by the Chinese, they sent a copy of it to med labs/research facilities around the world. The genome from the first Spanish victim was identified by the lab at the University of Valencia as being a mutated version of the Chinese one. Similar enough to be recognised as a Coronavirus, but different enough to recognise it had undergone an antigenic shift.

If its very similar, the antibodies to developed against the first version should work. If its too different, who knows. Unfortunately, this also makes developing an effective vaccine a little harder.
		
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My G/F had the horrible bug/virus that was going around at Christmas time. One of the conspiracy theories is that it was Covid or a version of it. As I was obviously in very close proximity to her I'm clutching at straws that we will both be OK.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			slightly off topivc but
if you have caught  the virus but fortunately recovered from it ,can you catch it again or are you now immune ?
just wondering .
		
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Nobody knows yet.


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## chrisd (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Nobody knows yet.
		
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Its thought to be extremely unlikely


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

DaveR said:



			My G/F had the horrible bug/virus that was going around at Christmas time. One of the conspiracy theories is that it was Covid or a version of it. As I was obviously in very close proximity to her I'm clutching at straws that we will both be OK.
		
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I had a horrible one about 6 weeks back, that last over 2 weeks. I've never had an upper resp tract infection like it. For 3 nights I had to try and sleep sitting up - felt like I was drowning, and the cough for a couple of days was almost constant.

Daughter#2 had something similar about the same time, back in the UK. She was a lot worse, not helped by asthma and Lupus. To say we were worried for her was a mild understatement.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Its thought to be extremely unlikely
		
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That’s what I said “nobody knows”
Still in the guessing stage.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 25, 2020)

Off licences added to the list of "essential" retailers and allowed to stay open.

I like a drink but that is really nonsensical. Got to wonder what's next - bookies reopening?


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## Jacko_G (Mar 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's got NOTHING to do with my son - absolutely nothing at all.  We can afford to support him through this no matter what.

I am actually thinking about the 4.8m self-employed and 1.5m zero hours contract works who might not have a fall back such as my son has.  And whose income has dropped instantly to ZERO.

I repeat.  This has NOTHING TO DO WITH MY SON.

What is the problem with paying everyone £425/month when the government is paying 80% of employees salaries - and these figures will be in general very much more than £425/month.

If you think these 6.3m individuals are just going to have to wait - then fine - that's for you to think - but it's not how I think. We have to get some *immediate *guarantee of money to workers who continue to work - and cram onto the underground in London - because they have no other source of income.
		
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Yet every post you mention your son.

I personally think what you do for your son is admirable and of course you will always help family but as Drdel said he's 27 and not a silly wee boy anymore. Every week you post about doing XY or Z for him or paying AB or C.

Have you ever sat him down and told him that his career choice at 27 just doesn't look like being a success and to perhaps look elsewhere as a career?


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## DaveR (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I had a horrible one about 6 weeks back, that last over 2 weeks. I've never had an upper resp tract infection like it. For 3 nights I had to try and sleep sitting up - felt like I was drowning, and the cough for a couple of days was almost constant.

Daughter#2 had something similar about the same time, back in the UK. She was a lot worse, not helped by asthma and Lupus. To say we were worried for her was a mild understatement.
		
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Fingers crossed we have all built up some form of immunity


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## DRW (Mar 25, 2020)

DaveR said:



			My G/F had the horrible bug/virus that was going around at Christmas time. One of the conspiracy theories is that it was Covid or a version of it. As I was obviously in very close proximity to her I'm clutching at straws that we will both be OK.
		
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The virus does have two strains already detected IIRC L and S. Both fairly similar allegedly. Let hope it does change much to others and that the immune system can recognise CO19 unlike colds.

I also had something ?virus? for about 3 months from about Oct to Dec(symptoms of the CO19, dry cough, not great breathing(exercise was like I had really bad asthma, lungs bad), a couple of times I thought I was on the mend but the lung breathing just kept coming back. Never have had problems breathing before with flus & colds and such like.

Wife/son had it first but was very mild(sore throat, fever one day and then kind of went away).

Mum caught it just before Christmas still hasn't recovered, lungs problem, she has had steroids/rest/antibiotics/puffer thing etc and next stop was hospital but looks like to have turned the corner.

Its an interesting thought....and have read similar comments on tweeter.


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## DaveR (Mar 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Off licences added to the list of "essential" retailers and allowed to stay open.

I like a drink but that is really nonsensical. *Got to wonder what's next - bookies reopening?*

Click to expand...

Excellent idea! I'm going to bet on what colour tie Boris will be wearing when he gives his next daily update


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I had a horrible one about 6 weeks back, that last over 2 weeks. I've never had an upper resp tract infection like it. For 3 nights I had to try and sleep sitting up - felt like I was drowning, and the cough for a couple of days was almost constant.

Daughter#2 had something similar about the same time, back in the UK. She was a lot worse, not helped by asthma and Lupus. To say we were worried for her was a mild understatement.
		
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Ditto had a very nasty chest infection lasted about a week but kept coming back for a lot longer.
I normally don’t get stuff like that so hope I have had it.

My son picked it up and now can’t go back to work in the nhs as he hasn’t been tested.
Absolute joke to find out Prince Charles has been!!!


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I had a horrible one about 6 weeks back, that last over 2 weeks. I've never had an upper resp tract infection like it. For 3 nights I had to try and sleep sitting up - felt like I was drowning, and the cough for a couple of days was almost constant.

Daughter#2 had something similar about the same time, back in the UK. She was a lot worse, not helped by asthma and Lupus. To say we were worried for her was a mild understatement.
		
Click to expand...

There were many of my family that had symptoms similar to coronavirus 3 months ago, I think it’s more than conspiracy theories, I think it must have been some kind of stain of coronavirus.


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## chrisd (Mar 25, 2020)

HID and I have had a bug for about 6/7 weeks it goes and then comes back and it's like a flu but milder. We dont have Covid symptoms though


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Ditto had a very nasty chest infection lasted about a week but kept coming back for a lot longer.
I normally don’t get stuff like that so hope I have had it.

My son picked it up and now can’t go back to work in the nhs as he hasn’t been tested.
Absolute joke to find out Prince Charles has been!!!
		
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Apparently it's NHS Scotlands policy to test over 70's showing system as a matter of course so not a joke but a matter of policy.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Tankie home schooling


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Ditto had a very nasty chest infection lasted about a week but kept coming back for a lot longer.
I normally don’t get stuff like that so hope I have had it.

My son picked it up and now can’t go back to work in the nhs as he hasn’t been tested.
Absolute joke to find out Prince Charles has been!!!
		
Click to expand...

One of the biggest things that can help is to give front line staff tests unfortunately it’s getting spread about in hospitals because the staff don’t have the right equipment, also sadly nhs workers are getting infected. 

Be interesting to know if Prince Charles had a private test if it wasn’t it’s a disgrace he can get one when nhs staff can’t.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Apparently it's NHS Scotlands policy to test over 70's showing system as a matter of course so not a joke but a matter of policy.
		
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I know of no over 70s with symptoms tested where I live north of the border


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			I know of no over 70s with symptoms tested where I live north of the border
		
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Maybe BBC made it up, we'll never know.  How many over 70's do you know showing signs.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 25, 2020)

Good to hear that over 250,000 have signed up to volunteer. We're not entirely a nation of selfish gits.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

Prince Charles was tested for showing ‘ very mild symptoms’ 
I don’t know anyone personally that has symptoms, but Scotland’s policy regarding testing is the same as the rest of the UK.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 25, 2020)

DaveR said:



			My G/F had the horrible bug/virus that was going around at Christmas time. One of the conspiracy theories is that it was Covid or a version of it. As I was obviously in very close proximity to her I'm clutching at straws that we will both be OK.
		
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My wife had the same, a very strong flu like bug that lasted for a couple of weeks and she normally doesnt get anything and she has a flu jab. Me on the otherhand dont have a flu jab, but have had mild version of it on and off for about  6 weeks after she had it.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Good to hear that over 250,000 have signed up to volunteer. We're not entirely a nation of selfish gits.
		
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Over 400,000 now good to hear that there are many good people around.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Off licences added to the list of "essential" retailers and allowed to stay open.

I like a drink but that is really nonsensical. Got to wonder what's next - bookies reopening?
		
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Do we have many off licences left? I can't think of one nearby. Do you have one in your neck of the woods?

Odd decision, really not essential.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My wife had the same, a very strong flu like bug that lasted for a couple of weeks and she normally doesnt get anything and she has a flu jab. Me on the otherhand dont have a flu jab, but have had mild version of it on and off for about  6 weeks after she had it.
		
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I had an awful I'llness over Xmas

Off my food .. day complete fever 

Fit all the signs of the virus 

I'm hoping it was it then it's long gone


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## MegaSteve (Mar 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Good to hear that over 250,000 have signed up to volunteer. We're not entirely a nation of selfish gits.
		
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Sad though, that some of the professionals are feeling compelled to threaten resigning...


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My wife had the same, a very strong flu like bug that lasted for a couple of weeks and she normally doesnt get anything and she has a flu jab. Me on the otherhand dont have a flu jab, but have had mild version of it on and off for about  6 weeks after she had it.
		
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You can still get the flu if you’ve had a flu jab; the flu jab only covers a few strains of the flu virus that are predicted to be the most prevalent each year.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Day and a half in bed and I’m climbing the walls already 🤪

Only positive thing is my condition has improved greatly, I’m still coughing, but the sneezing and runny eyes have given way to a more congested condition, where I’m more stuffy even though I’ve got nearly every window open in the house! 

Another decent nights sleep courtesy of Night Nurse will hopefully see it off, but it was quite scary in the manner it hit me, no advance systems, just Judas’d me when my guard was down 😡


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

Had a bit of a hangover this morning after staying up playing Xbox with mates until 3am. Whoops.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do we have many off licences left? I can't think of one nearby. Do you have one in your neck of the woods?

Odd decision, really not essential.
		
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yes, there is a couple that I know of in WB, as well as a wine merchant in Tynemouth and a big Majestic Wine in Gosforth.

As a result of this decision, pubs are now lobbying the govt to be able to reopen for takeaway sales

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ial-businesses-list-by-uk-government-covid-19


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

Announced today, €500 fines for not shopping at your nearest supermarket. Also fined for not buying essentials. Two people fined separately for only having beer and crisps in their shopping bags.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 25, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You can still get the flu if you’ve had a flu jab; the flu jab only covers a few strains of the flu virus that are predicted to be the most prevalent each year.
		
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I am aware of that, and so is she. The irony is she swears by the flu jab, I refuse to have it.


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## fundy (Mar 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do we have many off licences left? I can't think of one nearby. Do you have one in your neck of the woods?

Odd decision, really not essential.
		
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more about taking the pressure off the supermarkets who saw even greater demand and the beer and wine isles being cleared out after pubs were ordered to shut


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I am aware of that, and so is she. The irony is she swears by the flu jab, I refuse to have it.
		
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Why do you refuse to have it? Do you not care about the people around you who could potentially die if they caught the flu? Or yourself? I assume you’ve had other jabs in your life such as the MMR? Or maybe you’re selfish about those illnesses, too?


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 25, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Why do you refuse to have it? Do you not care about the people around you who could potentially die if they caught the flu? Or yourself? I assume you’ve had other jabs in your life such as the MMR? Or maybe you’re selfish about those illnesses, too?
		
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Not in the slightest. I used to have it between the ages on 18 and 22 each year, and during that time I never had more flu bugs than at any other time of my life. I stopped having the jab, and I stopped getting multiple flu bouts during the year.
Selfish?.....hardly.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 25, 2020)

fundy said:



			more about taking the pressure off the supermarkets who saw even greater demand and the beer and wine isles being cleared out after pubs were ordered to shut
		
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How many people are going to supermarkets just to buy booze? Very few would be my guess.

We are supposed to be making essential journeys only, is nipping to the offy for a few tins really essential? Sends entirely the wrong message imo.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How many people are going to supermarkets just to buy booze? Very few would be my guess.

We are supposed to be making essential journeys only, is nipping to the offy for a few tins really essential? Sends entirely the wrong message imo.
		
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Likewise though, if you're stuck at home as a result of the restrictions having something that might help the time pass less painfully might help


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Not in the slightest. I used to have it between the ages on 18 and 22 each year, and during that time I never had more flu bugs than at any other time of my life. I stopped having the jab, and I stopped getting multiple flu bouts during the year.
Selfish?.....hardly.
		
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Did you actually have the flu or did you have the cold, as is the case for most people when they claim they have the flu?


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## richart (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Announced today, €500 fines for not shopping at your nearest supermarket. Also fined for not buying essentials. Two people fined separately for only having beer and crisps in their shopping bags.
		
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Hold on, San Miguel is absolutely essential when in Spain.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How many people are going to supermarkets just to buy booze? Very few would be my guess.

We are supposed to be making essential journeys only, is nipping to the offy for a few tins really essential? Sends entirely the wrong message imo.
		
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I find it pathetic as a nation we can't not drink


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

richart said:



			Hold on, San Miguel is absolutely essential when in Spain.

Click to expand...

Yuk!

Estrella is the drink of real men.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I had a horrible one about 6 weeks back, that last over 2 weeks. I've never had an upper resp tract infection like it. For 3 nights I had to try and sleep sitting up - felt like I was drowning, and the cough for a couple of days was almost constant.

Daughter#2 had something similar about the same time, back in the UK. She was a lot worse, not helped by asthma and Lupus. To say we were worried for her was a mild understatement.
		
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I had the same about 6 weeks ago, the doctor said it was strep throat. and gave me a nasal spray.
BTW I'm on day 12 of isolation except for 2 quick shopping trips. When and if its over I'll probably be too big to get out the door


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## fundy (Mar 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How many people are going to supermarkets just to buy booze? Very few would be my guess.

We are supposed to be making essential journeys only, is nipping to the offy for a few tins really essential? Sends entirely the wrong message imo.
		
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at the weekend plenty were round here until they stripped the shelves dry

its not just that though is it, the supermarkets are still taking deliveries and trying to stock the shelves, be a lot easier for them just to say no more booze go to the offy surely and lighten their load to focus on the essentials


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Likewise though, if you're stuck at home as a result of the restrictions having something that might help the time pass less painfully might help

Click to expand...

Anyone like that has issues they need to seek separate help for.


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## USER1999 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Yuk!

Estrella is the drink of real men.
		
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Not really a fan of San Mig.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 25, 2020)

fundy said:



			at the weekend plenty were round here until they stripped the shelves dry

its not just that though is it, the supermarkets are still taking deliveries and trying to stock the shelves, be a lot easier for them just to say no more booze go to the offy surely and lighten their load to focus on the essentials
		
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How about they lighten the load by stopping restocking the clobber rails? Tesco, in these parts, have made a big deal of shutting the fresh fish and meat counters, to release staff for shelf filling, but have still ensured the clothing rails stay stocked...


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## fundy (Mar 25, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			How about they lighten the load by stopping restocking the clobber rails? Tesco, in these parts, have made a big deal of shutting the fresh fish and meat counters, to release staff for shelf filling, but have still ensured the clothing rails stay stocked...
		
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got to keep their high mark up items fully stocked 

does seem strange that they havent quite quickly reduced to a core of stock lines and stopped restocking anything outside that, there again I guess they probably only have so much warehouse space too and they dont want that overfull immediately either

cant say I envy anyone doing the job of supermarket manager thats for sure


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Day and a half in bed and I’m climbing the walls already 🤪

Only positive thing is my condition has improved greatly, I’m still coughing, but the sneezing and runny eyes have given way to a more congested condition, where I’m more stuffy even though I’ve got nearly every window open in the house!

Another decent nights sleep courtesy of Night Nurse will hopefully see it off, but it was quite scary in the manner it hit me, no advance systems, just Judas’d me when my guard was down 😡
		
Click to expand...

Welcome back to planet Earth buddy. Take it easy still. I know what you mean about wall climbing as HID is working at home for a few days and so bored (crap internet access) she is bombarding me with news updates, emails and texts. Some of us are trying to do some constructive work!!


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## patricks148 (Mar 25, 2020)

people just bot getting it..... on my way back from walking the dogsaw a group of runners, maybe 10 stong all grouped together though the islands and two polish guys who met on the corner by the SC, shook hands then gave each other a hug


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## Andy (Mar 25, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Not really a fan of San Mig.
		
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Agreed, its rank.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



*You know what it dont matter, ave gone through this thread to see what ave done wrong.
You know what..nowt.*
I came away when the FOC said it was safe. Others came on holiday after me, others were hoping they could still go on holiday Others on here who have slagged me off had there holidays to different parts of the world cancelled by the same FOC Goverment dept. I adhered to the rules and others have. The difference is what?
My holiday is cut short because of the planks of this world that feel it is urgent to go to skegness for a candy floss. They could not understand the severity of this Covid. Something that you the forum members mentioned in great detail.
Guess what I put on a post about travel and Covid. My travel was deemed safe, the travellers to skegness etc not. And it is met by rabid abuse.
Scarcasm and the customary name calling which is now the norm. At the same time I am.looking from afar at a  country that has gone to shit. Panic buying, lack of social distancing, robbing of NHS badges, profiteering. My country looks ugly from afar.
Guess what I mentioned about having to look 2 kids when I got home. The Banshee wailing rea had fever pitch. My daughter had spoken to 111 re our situation. There answer, there are hundreds of thousands of kids that will be going from parent to parent. And grandparents. IT IS SAFE AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NO COVID SYMPTOMS.
We do not have to isolate because we are returning on a.plane..we have to isolate be cause stephen wanted his Candy floss at Skeggy.
You know what ave trawled through over 100 plus pages of this topic and I asked a question re who else could the government ask to get advice.
Ironically I found it on post 548 I think it was written by Ethan. It is the best post by a country mile on here and yet I feel hardly anyone has read it. It gave me the answers i were looking for yet my question was met once more with rammel.
This Covid topic had degenerated from an informative subject into the normal name calling sarcastic drivel that is becoming the norm. Grown men calling one another names.
I could go on, but am not gonna waste my breath.
Everyone look after yourselves.
		
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In going; no comment.

In telling us how if we stop moving the virus stops moving from the other side of the Atlantic; if you can't see the stupidity & hypocrisy in that post then you're either beyond help or trolling for England.

Frankly if I was on the other side of the Atlantic I'd be far too busy having a good time to bother about posting on here.  You could leave it alone and we'd be none the wiser, but you rub people's noses in it & wonder why there's a backlash?  Incredible.

Buenos noches.


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## DanFST (Mar 25, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Why do you refuse to have it? Do you not care about the people around you who could potentially die if they caught the flu? Or yourself? I assume you’ve had other jabs in your life such as the MMR? Or maybe you’re selfish about those illnesses, too?
		
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I've never had one, very selfish.


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## DanFST (Mar 25, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			IT IS SAFE AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NO COVID SYMPTOMS.
.
		
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Incorrect, my missus had no symptoms and gave it to me. research suggests up to 50% of the population have no symptoms.


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

Tonight the Spanish brandy pixie arrived at my gate...

"Buena, Brian? Que tal?" Roughly translated. Good, Brian. How are you? They are lazy in the south. They don't say "good evening," Buenas noches, just "good."

He put a bottle of brandy on my wall. Cleaned it thoroughly with hand gel then backed away. He opened his own bottle and poured a measure. "Salut, Brian. Hasta luego." and off he went.

I bagged the bottle and put it our "quarantine cupboard", where it will stay for 24 hours.

When this lockdown is lifted, we'll being doing what the Spanish do best. A cracking evening meal with a few bottles of beer, wine and water.

I am gobsmacked, truly gobsmacked...


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what it dont matter, ave gone through this thread to see what ave done wrong.
You know what..nowt.
I came away when the FOC said it was safe. Others came on holiday after me, others were hoping they could still go on holiday Others on here who have slagged me off had there holidays to different parts of the world cancelled by the same FOC Goverment dept. I adhered to the rules and others have. The difference is what?
My holiday is cut short because of the planks of this world that feel it is urgent to go to skegness for a candy floss. They could not understand the severity of this Covid. Something that you the forum members mentioned in great detail.
Guess what I put on a post about travel and Covid. My travel was deemed safe, the travellers to skegness etc not. And it is met by rabid abuse.
Scarcasm and the customary name calling which is now the norm. At the same time I am.looking from afar at a  country that has gone to shit. Panic buying, lack of social distancing, robbing of NHS badges, profiteering. My country looks ugly from afar.
Guess what I mentioned about having to look 2 kids when I got home. The Banshee wailing rea had fever pitch. My daughter had spoken to 111 re our situation. There answer, there are hundreds of thousands of kids that will be going from parent to parent. And grandparents. IT IS SAFE AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NO COVID SYMPTOMS.
We do not have to isolate because we are returning on a.plane..we have to isolate be cause stephen wanted his Candy floss at Skeggy.
You know what ave trawled through over 100 plus pages of this topic and I asked a question re who else could the government ask to get advice.
Ironically I found it on post 548 I think it was written by Ethan. It is the best post by a country mile on here and yet I feel hardly anyone has read it. It gave me the answers i were looking for yet my question was met once more with rammel.
This Covid topic had degenerated from an informative subject into the normal name calling sarcastic drivel that is becoming the norm. Grown men calling one another names.
I could go on, but am not gonna waste my breath.
Everyone look after yourselves.
		
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You thought you're right Tashy, others, myself included, thought you're wrong. Guess what, its turned out you were wrong. If you weren't wrong you'd be flying back on Saturday, as scheduled, wouldn't you?

And that gives the definitive answer. The fact you've had to fly back early has proven you wrong. "Yes but the FCO said..." 

Its naive to think the FCO would advance notice, just as the govt hasn't given advance notice on a number of things. They had to get their ducks lined up before they could announce things. And those with intelligence could see it coming based on what was rippling around the world. But hey, you only have to satisfy yourself in that.


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I've never had one, very selfish.
		
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 So you don’t care about those around you, either?


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Tonight the Spanish brandy pixie arrived at my gate...

"Buena, Brian? Que tal?" Roughly translated. Good, Brian. How are you? They are lazy in the south. They don't say "good evening," Buenas noches, just "good."

He put a bottle of brandy on my wall. Cleaned it thoroughly with hand gel then backed away. He opened his own bottle and poured a measure. "Salut, Brian. Hasta luego." and off he went.

I bagged the bottle and put it our "quarantine cupboard", where it will stay for 24 hours.

When this lockdown is lifted, we'll being doing what the Spanish do best. A cracking evening meal with a few bottles of beer, wine and water.

I am gobsmacked, truly gobsmacked...

Click to expand...

I must have some people like that near me, but I keep missing them, they must come very late as the Budweiser bottles are always empty on the wall 😜


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Not really a fan of San Mig.
		
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Tastes like petrol or benzene yuk .


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2020)

Question. 

I can go for a walk in my local park (5 mins walk away) and avoid getting too close to other humans, but.....we have a mini....very mini pitch and putt in it. Think 3/4 54 deg wedge. Dare I risk taking a few balls and having 30 mins? Would that be a bit naughty? 70% of me says yes, but that nagging 30% thought I'd ask on here.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

The rules are quite clear, exercise is allowed, and that’s not exercising, just like golf rules, they’re not to be interpreted to what you want or would like to do.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 25, 2020)

Saw this posted by someone on Facebook earlier.......

"So key workers can continue to do 50/60 hours a week for normal money putting themselves at risk and keeping them away from family and non key workers can stay at home at no risk with family and get 80% of their wage. I know people have to get paid and don't begrudge them that but surely key workers are getting the shitty end of the stick."

I'm self employed and am neither a key worker nor one of those that will be at home getting 80% of my wage but I think that when this is eventually over there needs to be recognition from the government for all those that were on the front line of fighting the virus. Whether that is NHS staff (all of them from the surgeons and consultants to the cleaners), supermarket workers, delivery drivers, care workers or anyone else that has been classed as a key worker through this, they should get a massive thank you from the government, and the country as a whole, as well as some kind of financial bonus for the work they're putting in to deal with this. As an example, give them each a couple of grand each to go on holiday with their families and give them a chance to rest and recover. Yes it will cost a lot of money but it will also help the country by putting cash back into the economy, giving a boost to the airline industry if they go abroad or to the hospitality industry if they take their break in the UK.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			The rules are quite clear, exercise is allowed, and that’s not exercising, just like golf rules, they’re not to be interpreted to what you want or would like to do.
		
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Not sure I agree on either count Robin. Golf has many rules which players will manipulate to their benefit. 

re the golf in the park. I’ve a 60*200 field/green space outside my window. I’ve been out there hitting wedges before the outbreak and will do during and after. The biggest argument I’ve seen against golf has been travel not being essential. I can’t see there being a legitimate argument against a minute walk.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Saw this posted by someone on Facebook earlier.......

"So key workers can continue to do 50/60 hours a week for normal money putting themselves at risk and keeping them away from family and non key workers can stay at home at no risk with family and get 80% of their wage. I know people have to get paid and don't begrudge them that but surely key workers are getting the shitty end of the stick."

I'm self employed and am neither a key worker nor one of those that will be at home getting 80% of my wage but I think that when this is eventually over there needs to be recognition from the government for all those that were on the front line of fighting the virus. Whether that is NHS staff (all of them from the surgeons and consultants to the cleaners), supermarket workers, delivery drivers, care workers or anyone else that has been classed as a key worker through this, they should get a massive thank you from the government, and the country as a whole, as well as some kind of financial bonus for the work they're putting in to deal with this. As an example, give them each a couple of grand each to go on holiday with their families and give them a chance to rest and recover. Yes it will cost a lot of money but it will also help the country by putting cash back into the economy, giving a boost to the airline industry if they go abroad or to the hospitality industry if they take their break in the UK.
		
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All o can say to this Is that I hope it’s government lead. I’ve had a massive argument at work today just to get us sanitizer because our director felt paying £90 for what will probably keep us going for 4 weeks as excessive!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			There were many of my family that had symptoms similar to coronavirus 3 months ago, I think it’s more than conspiracy theories, I think it must have been some kind of stain of coronavirus.
		
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Both myself and Grandson had this. at one stage my GS had a raging fever/temperature.
Mine was more cough + dry blocked nasal passages


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Not sure I agree on either count Robin. Golf has many rules which players will manipulate to their benefit.

re the golf in the park. I’ve a 60*200 field/green space outside my window. I’ve been out there hitting wedges before the outbreak and will do during and after. The biggest argument I’ve seen against golf has been travel not being essential. I can’t see there being a legitimate argument against a minute walk.
		
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Well you wouldn’t get away with manipulating a rule to suit you if you were playing with me, a rule is a rule, period. 

I also think your field is a little different to a public park with a public pitch & putt in it.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Both myself and Grandson had this. at one stage my GS had a raging fever/temperature.
Mine was more cough + dry blocked nasal passages
		
Click to expand...

You're getting me worried I had the same 6 weeks ago,  hope there's a cover up going on


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## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Well you wouldn’t get away with manipulating a rule to suit you if you were playing with me, a rule is a rule, period.

I also think your field is a little different to a public park with a public pitch & putt in it.
		
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So you’ve never seen a pro manipulate a rule? Mickelson in a bush fir example?

Re the pitch and putt, if it’s closed off I wouldn’t use it. If not, then I don’t see how that’s anyway worse than cyclists. in fact using the argument about safety, I’d say cycling is worse.


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 25, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Did you actually have the flu or did you have the cold, as is the case for most people when they claim they have the flu?
		
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TBH I'm not that bothered as it was 32 yrs ago I had my last flu jab. All that matters to me is that when I had the jab I had more cold/flu bugs than when I didn't.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			TBH I'm not that bothered as it was 32 yrs ago I had my last flu jab. All that matters to me is that when I had the jab I had more cold/flu bugs than when I didn't.
		
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That wasn't anything to do with the flu jab, but having the jab is a personal choice.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 25, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Not in the slightest. I used to have it between the ages on 18 and 22 each year, and during that time I never had more flu bugs than at any other time of my life. I stopped having the jab, and I stopped getting multiple flu bouts during the year.
Selfish?.....hardly.
		
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Likewise only time I've ever had a "proper" flu was the only year I had the jab and I was off work for 3 weeks. 

Never had it again since. (Jab or flu)


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			So you’ve never seen a pro manipulate a rule? Mickelson in a bush fir example?

Re the pitch and putt, if it’s closed off I wouldn’t use it. If not, then I don’t see how that’s anyway worse than cyclists. in fact using the argument about safety, I’d say cycling is worse.
		
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You honestly think pitch & putt qualifies as exercise, if you do you’re as daft as he is!


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			That wasn't anything to do with the flu jab, but having the jab is a personal choice.
		
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Who knows, all I know is that before I started to have the jab (under advise from parents) I hardly got anything. Once I started to have the jab I had something every couple of months, then when I stopped the jab I went back to hardly anything and been that way since.
It may be chance, coincidence or who knows but I cant change history.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			You honestly think pitch & putt qualifies as exercise, if you do you’re as daft as he is!
		
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Do you, covid aside. Consider golf as exercise? 

I think most on here would probably class it as the only cardio they do. 

Not once when people were discussing golf prior to the ban being confirmed did anyone argue that it wasn't exercise. It was All about the fact its not essential to travel for exercise. 

If you wanna call me daft you crack on.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Do you, covid aside. Consider golf as exercise?

I think most on here would probably class it as the only cardio they do.

Not once when people were discussing golf prior to the ban being confirmed did anyone argue that it wasn't exercise. It was All about the fact its not essential to travel for exercise.

If you wanna call me daft you crack on.
		
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Your spinning it to full blown golf now, it’s pitch & putt ffs, the 2 are not comparable.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Your spinning it to full blown golf now, it’s pitch & putt ffs, the 2 are not comparable.
		
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Hit a ball, walk to it. Hit it again. 
Of course it's comparable. 

I've seen kids over the park playing keepy ups on their own. Should we stop em doing that as its not actually football so doesn't count as exercise. 

I totally respect we shouldn't be going out of our way to simply get a fix of golf. But I'll hold my hands up and admit I'd probably have a little chip around the greens if it was open as I'd be hurting absolutley nobody whilst out getting fresh air. 

Anyways, feel free to respond, call me daft whatever you wish. I'm out. 

This place is getting like winter again. Time for a break.


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## GB72 (Mar 25, 2020)

I really just do not understand the level of addiction with some on here. They say no golf and that is fine for me. Can walk, run, cycle all sorts of things but some seem unable to live life without golf. My mum is 72, widowed and golf was all she had, played all the time. Even she is coping better with this than some on here who seem to be looking for any glimmer of hope that they can hit a little white ball.


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## Fish (Mar 25, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Hit a ball, walk to it. Hit it again.
Of course it's comparable.

I've seen kids over the park playing keepy ups on their own. Should we stop em doing that as its not actually football so doesn't count as exercise.

I totally respect we shouldn't be going out of our way to simply get a fix of golf. But I'll hold my hands up and admit I'd probably have a little chip around the greens if it was open as I'd be hurting absolutley nobody whilst out getting fresh air.

Anyways, feel free to respond, call me daft whatever you wish. I'm out.

This place is getting like winter again. Time for a break.
		
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Pathetic last remarks. you run away because you can’t debate when someone disagrees and calls you out for what they believe is wrong under the current directive. Try walking down the road with a couple wedges in your hand to the public park with a pitch & putt within it, but then don’t complain when the police spot you and hopefully fine you of better still, lock you up with the other daft bugger.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

I use to poo poo at people having the Flu.  Until around a 100 of us caught it at a wedding held in a Marque.
Changed my mind after that, this strain of flu is much worse it's deadly , scary stuff defo not to be sneezed at


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## Papas1982 (Mar 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Pathetic last remarks. you run away because you can’t debate when someone disagrees and calls you out for what they believe is wrong under the current directive. Try walking down the road with a couple wedges in your hand to the public park with a pitch & putt within it, but then don’t complain when the police spot you and hopefully fine you of better still, lock you up with the other daft bugger.
		
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I'm not running away. There simply is no need for us to circle around. 

For the record it wasn't a debate. 
A debate is reasoned and has no need for name calling. Not that daft bugger is particular insulting, but still ebtyer to simply articulate a reasoned repsonse. Anything less detracts from a debate. 

You think you're right. I don't think it's black and white. 
Quite simply no point going around in circles.

We've both said our pieces and aren't going to change our minds. 

As to being locked up. They split up a bbq with 20 people yesterday. Nobody isn't getting locked up for at best. Stretching the rules. 

On a side note. I genuinely am glad to see that you're feeling better.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Apparently it's NHS Scotlands policy to test over 70's showing system as a matter of course so not a joke but a matter of policy.
		
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No wonder he buggered off to Scotland then.
Thought you were supposed to stay in your main residence, not your holiday home.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			I know of no over 70s with symptoms tested where I live north of the border
		
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Old Skier said:



			Maybe BBC made it up, we'll never know.  How many over 70's do you know showing signs.
		
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Is it fake news or true?


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How many people are going to supermarkets just to buy booze? Very few would be my guess.

We are supposed to be making essential journeys only, is nipping to the offy for a few tins really essential? Sends entirely the wrong message imo.
		
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Good for the tax man though!


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## Wolf (Mar 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I find it pathetic as a nation we can't not drink
		
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I agree with you 100% on this, so many people on my social media already saying they need a drink to get through this or posting pictures of how much booze they bought including my sister who has bought enough wine to host a festival. I find it quite sad the level of reliance people have on needing a drink.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I agree with you 100% on this, so many people on my social media already saying they need a drink to get through this or posting pictures of how much booze they bought including my sister who has bought enough wine to host a festival. I find it quite sad the level of reliance people have on needing a drink.
		
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All I need to get through this is my family

The little one is keeping us on our toes 

Wife is doing so well proud of her

I mean the working every shift they txt me can I come in for is great because out of 34 we have 12 off this week sick or isolating.. so it's been a good week so been giving me a break to get out 

Have broke into the Easter eggs tho lol


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Likewise only time I've ever had a "proper" flu was the only year I had the jab and I was off work for 3 weeks.

Never had it again since. (Jab or flu)
		
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So you won’t be having the Covid19 jab if it is available then?


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I use to poo poo at people having the Flu.  Until around a 100 of us caught it at a wedding held in a Marque.
Changed my mind after that, this strain of flu is much worse it's deadly , scary stuff defo not to be sneezed at 

Click to expand...

All flu is deadly.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2020)

Never through my routine would change so much 

On work days wash hands. Drive work. Glove on to press car park buzzer.. leave glove on seat 

After work drive home wipe down car with detol wipe (and the glove)

Detol all door handles on front door

Wash hands 

Shower and change (work stuff in wash)

Least it minimises the spread


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## Hobbit (Mar 25, 2020)

Being a bit of an aircraft nut I often look on Flightradar24. Tonight, 1 plane over Spain, 1 over France and 1 over the U.K. 

Shocked... this is a bit scary...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Being a bit of an aircraft nut I often look on Flightradar24. Tonight, 1 plane over Spain, 1 over France and 1 over the U.K.

Shocked... this is a bit scary...
		
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Did you check flights out of Mexico? 

What time was that Bri, quite a few over currently?


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## TheDiablo (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Being a bit of an aircraft nut I often look on Flightradar24. Tonight, 1 plane over Spain, 1 over France and 1 over the U.K.

Shocked... this is a bit scary...
		
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Huh? Theres loads more than that, both on flightradar and using my eyes out of my window. Down about 75-80% as a guesstimate, but a lot more than one plane in the sky right now!


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Being a bit of an aircraft nut I often look on Flightradar24. Tonight, 1 plane over Spain, 1 over France and 1 over the U.K.

Shocked... this is a bit scary...
		
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What are the 1 flight doing , surveillance.
Seems odd only 1 in each country.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			What are the 1 flight doing , surveillance.
Seems odd only 1 in each country.
		
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They're still up there spraying the mind control drugs. 

That's one of my favourite conspiracy theories. Google "Contrails" or "Chemtrails" if you haven't seen them.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

Who washes their hands after bringing their bin back in , seemingly Bin Men touch around 2000 bin handles a day that could spread the virus, just a thought.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Is it fake news or true?
		
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As I said before Scotland have no different policy of testing than the rest of the UK. 

Very few are being tested at the moment including the over 70s, this is apparently to change shortly.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Who washes their hands after bringing their bin back in , seemingly Bin Men touch around 2000 bin handles a day that could spread the virus, just a thought.
		
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I put a Dettol wipe on mine today to bring it back in.
And next doors.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 25, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Who washes their hands after bringing their bin back in , seemingly Bin Men touch around 2000 bin handles a day that could spread the virus, just a thought.
		
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I’m a religious hand washer after most tasks, and extra after touching a bin. Don’t open doors when out without a sleeve if I can help it. 
I don’t like being ill so do all steps to avoid.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 25, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Who washes their hands after bringing their bin back in , seemingly Bin Men touch around 2000 bin handles a day that could spread the virus, just a thought.
		
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I wash my hands every time I touch the bin whether that's throwing a couple of items into it or taking it out/bringing it in. By the very nature of it it's going to be crawling in germs.

Are we a nation of clatty filthy unhygienic animals? Why do we need to be told to wash our hands???


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 25, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			As I said before Scotland have no different policy of testing than the rest of the UK.

Very few are being tested at the moment including the over 70s, this is apparently to change shortly.
		
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How did Charlie Get his test with only mild symptoms I wonder.?
Minister was asked exactly that on Peston but didn’t answer the question, poor from the presenter letting him off easily.
Frontline workers are more important than him.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			How did Charlie Get his test with only mild symptoms I wonder.?
Minister was asked exactly that on Peston but didn’t answer the question, poor from the presenter letting him off easily.
Frontline workers are more important than him.
		
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He's the next in line, end if discussion really as to why he got the test.

Whether you agree or not is a different matter but a pointless debate as it's not going to change a single thing!


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			How did Charlie Get his test with only mild symptoms I wonder.?
Minister was asked exactly that on Peston but didn’t answer the question, poor from the presenter letting him off easily.
Frontline workers are more important than him.
		
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Yeah I wondered that as well, but I think I heard somewhere you can pay for a private test.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I wash my hands every time I touch the bin whether that's throwing a couple of items into it or taking it out/bringing it in. By the very nature of it it's going to be crawling in germs.

Are we a nation of clatty filthy unhygienic animals? Why do we need to be told to wash our hands???
		
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Pre Virus alert did you wash your hands or clean the glass when one of your mates carried your drink over to you from the bar ?.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 25, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			He's the next in line, end if discussion really as to why he got the test.

Whether you agree or not is a different matter but a pointless debate as it's not going to change a single thing!
		
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My sil is a nurse and coming home to my daughter with my 2 grandkids and he has more need of a test than someone with only mild symptoms, next in line to the thrown or not 

But your right it’s not going to change anything so lm out. 

Oh and btw this forum has many a pointless debate.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I wash my hands every time I touch the bin whether that's throwing a couple of items into it or taking it out/bringing it in. By the very nature of it it's going to be crawling in germs.

Are we a nation of clatty filthy unhygienic animals? Why do we need to be told to wash our hands???
		
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Judging by initial shortage of hand sanitiser, hand wash panic buying and observations at work. Most are disgusting and need a reminder.  Notice we didn’t get a shortage of toothpaste!


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## Slab (Mar 26, 2020)

I read that in Scotland 10,676 covid tests have been carried out with 719 positive results, that's 93% negative results

I hope it means lots of the total number of tests being done are on NHS medical staff & they are coming back negative


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2020)

Correction



bobmac said:



			Numbers for the UK from the last 2 days.....

Number of new cases 24 Mar......1,427
Number of new cases 25 Mar......*1452*

Number of deaths 24 Mar.....87
Number of deaths 25 Mar.....*43*

A long way to go, but encouraging.
		
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## chrisd (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Being a bit of an aircraft nut I often look on Flightradar24. Tonight, 1 plane over Spain, 1 over France and 1 over the U.K. 

Shocked... this is a bit scary...
		
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Living in East Kent we are on a flight path in and out of the country. We haven't seen a plane for days


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## backwoodsman (Mar 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			How did Charlie Get his test with only mild symptoms I wonder.?
Minister was asked exactly that on Peston but didn’t answer the question, poor from the presenter letting him off easily.
Frontline workers are more important than him.
		
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As others have said, he's next in line, so of course he's going to get tested. (In the same way that he'd get medical care that the rest of us can only dream of). On the other hand, perhaps he paid for a private test? Private tests are available to anyone willing to part with the readies.


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## Slab (Mar 26, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			As others have said, he's next in line, so of course he's going to get tested. (In the same way that he'd get medical care that the rest of us can only dream of). On the other hand, perhaps he paid for a private test? Private tests are available to anyone willing to part with the readies.
		
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I'd imagine its not just one test, I'd guess the royals (& many thousands of others with means/access) will be getting themselves tested daily throughout a 14 day isolation period until they know they/re clear


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			My sil is a nurse and coming home to my daughter with my 2 grandkids and he has more need of a test than someone with only mild symptoms, next in line to the thrown or not

But your right it’s not going to change anything so lm out.

Oh and btw this forum has many a pointless debate.
		
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Show me where I said anyone was more deserving of anyone else and we can continue your debate.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Pre Virus alert did you wash your hands or clean the glass when one of your mates carried your drink over to you from the bar ?.
		
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Maybe its due to my line of work but yes I always regulary wash my hand I always have hand gel on my possession when at work etc. 

As for bar, no I've never wiped down a glass but then again not being a drinker if I have a beer its usually in the house. And then again its usually a whisky.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			You're getting me worried I had the same 6 weeks ago,  hope there's a cover up going on 

Click to expand...

From what I can make of it.........……..... it was coronavirus but not the C 19 one.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Who washes their hands after bringing their bin back in , seemingly Bin Men touch around 2000 bin handles a day that could spread the virus, just a thought.
		
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We have adopted the practice of washing hands every time we re-enter the house... Without fail... Even if we've been wearing gloves whilst out...


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what it dont matter, ave gone through this thread to see what ave done wrong.
You know what..nowt.
I came away when the FOC said it was safe. Others came on holiday after me, others were hoping they could still go on holiday Others on here who have slagged me off had there holidays to different parts of the world cancelled by the same FOC Goverment dept. I adhered to the rules and others have. The difference is what?
My holiday is cut short because of the planks of this world that feel it is urgent to go to skegness for a candy floss. They could not understand the severity of this Covid. Something that you the forum members mentioned in great detail.
Guess what I put on a post about travel and Covid. My travel was deemed safe, the travellers to skegness etc not. And it is met by rabid abuse.
Scarcasm and the customary name calling which is now the norm. At the same time I am.looking from afar at a  country that has gone to shit. Panic buying, lack of social distancing, robbing of NHS badges, profiteering. My country looks ugly from afar.
Guess what I mentioned about having to look 2 kids when I got home. The Banshee wailing rea had fever pitch. My daughter had spoken to 111 re our situation. There answer, there are hundreds of thousands of kids that will be going from parent to parent. *And grandparents. IT IS SAFE AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NO COVID SYMPTOMS.*
We do not have to isolate because we are returning on a.plane..we have to isolate be cause stephen wanted his Candy floss at Skeggy.
*You know what ave trawled through over 100 plus pages of this topic and I asked a question re who else could the government ask to get advice.*
Ironically I found it on post 548 I think it was written by Ethan. It is the best post by a country mile on here and yet I feel hardly anyone has read it. It gave me the answers i were looking for yet my question was met once more with rammel.
This Covid topic had degenerated from an informative subject into the normal name calling sarcastic drivel that is becoming the norm. Grown men calling one another names.
I could go on, but am not gonna waste my breath.
Everyone look after yourselves.
		
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Putting aside everything else, who trawls through 100 plus pages of guff on a golf forum web site on holiday for essential advice on the coronavirus?  Seriously, cultivate some better sources.  If not you'll end up thinking that kids going to their grandparents is safe if they have no symptoms.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			He's the next in line, end if discussion really as to why he got the test.

Whether you agree or not is a different matter but a pointless debate as it's not going to change a single thing!
		
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Nice example set by our future King.

Do any discussions on here change anything?
It’s opinion based that’s all.
But in a pandemic and national emergency people should not be able to pay for testing.

If you have the virus who would you like to see have the test ,Prince Charles or a Doctor.?


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Being a bit of an aircraft nut I often look on Flightradar24. Tonight, 1 plane over Spain, 1 over France and 1 over the U.K.

Shocked... this is a bit scary...
		
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Did you see a Hot Air balloon travelling east from Mexico, self sustained by the passengers' own hot air !! (Apology to Tash).


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## Rlburnside (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Show me where I said anyone was more deserving of anyone else and we can continue your debate.
		
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You need to read my post more carefully I never said you thought some were more deserving than others. It was just my opinion. 👍


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 26, 2020)

Just a thought ,many of our grandparents were asked to go and fight a war ,we are being asked to sit on a couch.


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## pendodave (Mar 26, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			Just a thought ,many of our grandparents were asked to go and fight a war ,we are being asked to sit on a couch.


Click to expand...

Obviously I take your point, but I think that being able to do something is A Good Thing.
I have to work, and it's great to get out of the house and do something productive. I think that's a pretty natural reaction.
I'm obviously hoping that no-one shoots at me, but I am going through the West Mids, so who can say...


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2020)

Turns out the lead nurse I am office sharing with at the moment as mine is now in a "hot" area for suspected or confirmed cases and therefore clinically unsafe for me to use, has gone off and the talk on the shop floor is he's tested positive. Not filling me with warm feelings at this moment in time. No-one seems to want to say yes or no and he's definitely self-isolating for 14 days


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Obviously I take your point, but I think that being able to do something is A Good Thing.
I have to work, and it's great to get out of the house and do something productive. I think that's a pretty natural reaction.
I'm obviously hoping that no-one shoots at me, but I am going through the West Mids, so who can say...
		
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I basically think we're just a nation of selfish a-holes who don't like being told what to do. Absolutely zero discipline in this country.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I basically think we're just a nation of selfish a-holes who don't like being told what to do. Absolutely zero discipline in this country.
		
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I have customers across Europe and the same complaints about people still mixing, going to pubs, parks, restaurants etc are universal until each went into lockdown. There is not a country out there, maybe the very rare exception, where people have all voluntarily gone home and stayed home. Even in China the police and army had to enforce the lock down as people were ignoring the advice.


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## patricks148 (Mar 26, 2020)

wonder if the Donald has thought about sueing China


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## pendodave (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I basically think we're just a nation of selfish a-holes who don't like being told what to do. Absolutely zero discipline in this country.
		
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That's just nonsense, but I'll dignify it with a reply.
I've travelled into London, through it, and to Birmingham and Manchester since the start of the week. There is no-one about, just none. 
But carry on making stuff up. Although it's not reported on, because it suits no-one's agenda, I suspect we are pretty much the same as other western European nations. Comparisons with other Asian countries are not helpful for a whole load of reasons.


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## bluewolf (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I basically think we're just a nation of selfish a-holes who don't like being told what to do. Absolutely zero discipline in this country.
		
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What do you expect? We've had a steady stream of people in powerful positions telling us that "Experts" are not to be trusted and that everyone has a hidden agenda of some sort. Conspiracy theories are now a normal topic of conversation rather than a moderately amusing sideline. 

There are a certain number of people in this country who should feel thoroughly ashamed of the way they've acted over the last 10-15 years.. They won't though, as they are utterly absorbed with their own delusions of importance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I basically think we're just a nation of selfish a-holes who don't like being told what to do. Absolutely zero discipline in this country.
		
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And it’s took this pandemic for you to work that out!! Must be lonely up there in your perfect world.


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## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			As I said before Scotland have no different policy of testing than the rest of the UK.

Very few are being tested at the moment including the over 70s, this is apparently to change shortly.
		
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Not according to your head of the NHS who was stood next to your first minister when she said it, suppose she was lying.


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## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Turns out the lead nurse I am office sharing with at the moment as mine is now in a "hot" area for suspected or confirmed cases and therefore clinically unsafe for me to use, has gone off and the talk on the shop floor is he's tested positive. Not filling me with warm feelings at this moment in time. No-one seems to want to say yes or no and he's definitely self-isolating for 14 days
		
Click to expand...

If this is even half true surly you should be home for 7 days clink.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

pendodave said:



			That's just nonsense, but I'll dignify it with a reply.
I've travelled into London, through it, and to Birmingham and Manchester since the start of the week. There is no-one about, just none.
But carry on making stuff up. Although it's not reported on, because it suits no-one's agenda, I suspect we are pretty much the same as other western European nations. Comparisons with other Asian countries are not helpful for a whole load of reasons.
		
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“ just none”?.
There are people who will obey the advice ,but a lot who won’t .
Just been for my weekly shop and lots of cars and people about.
They can’t all be nessesary journeys , but maybe they are.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not according to your head of the NHS who was stood next to your first minister when she said it, suppose she was lying.
		
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Most leaders don’t lie they just mis speak.
Everyone knows that


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			What do you expect? We've had a steady stream of people in powerful positions telling us that "Experts" are not to be trusted and that everyone has a hidden agenda of some sort. Conspiracy theories are now a normal topic of conversation rather than a moderately amusing sideline.

There are a certain number of people in this country who should feel thoroughly ashamed of the way they've acted over the last 10-15 years.. They won't though, as they are utterly absorbed with their own delusions of importance.
		
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Whit?

What experts are not to be trusted?  What hidden agendas? What conspiracy theories?

Who has to be ashamed?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If this is even half true surly you should be home for 7 days clink.
		
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Waiting on our OH to call as we have to take everything through them but thinking so


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not according to your head of the NHS who was stood next to your first minister when she said it, suppose she was lying.
		
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Dynamic situations change!


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Waiting on our OH to call as we have to take everything through them but thinking so
		
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Isn’t self isolation up to you?


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I basically think we're just a nation of selfish a-holes who don't like being told what to do. Absolutely zero discipline in this country.
		
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13,000 retired medics and ancillary staff reporting for work, almost certainly knowing the infection rates amongst medics. Almost half a million volunteers register to help out in society. And countless, countless, countless good people out there doing all sorts of things.

There's idiots all over the place who get far more airtime than the multitudes of good people.


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## pendodave (Mar 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			“ just none”?.
There are people who will obey the advice ,but a lot who won’t .
Just been for my weekly shop and lots of cars and people about.
They can’t all be nessesary journeys , but maybe they are.
		
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 Really, just none. I was at Manchester picadilly yesterday at 1915. It's a big and very busy station. The only people on the concourse were staff. it was extraordinary. On my train, the only one that hour to London, we had 15 people. But just carry on thinking what you like.  
My genuine concern is that as numbers improve there will be some weakening of resolve. But for now, my own lived experience is that the public is doing what's asked.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

North Yorkshire Police now doing checkpoints to stop the dafties and selfish. 

Emergency services sadly being diverted and out at risk for clowns who can't do as instructed.


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## Norrin Radd (Mar 26, 2020)

being a taxi driver we are doing the hospital patient transport and I can honestly say that most people are adhering to the advice given by Boris ,there are obviously the morons who think its not going to affect them . but heyho thats what you get when half the population is below the average IQ.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Whit?

What experts are not to be trusted?  What hidden agendas? What conspiracy theories?

Who has to be ashamed?
		
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The only thing with experts is you can have two with vastly different views!
Both expert in their field so you choose which one to belive.


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## bluewolf (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Whit?

What experts are not to be trusted?  What hidden agendas? What conspiracy theories?

Who has to be ashamed?
		
Click to expand...

Really? Or are you on the wind up again?

You genuinely have no recollection of anyone ever stating that "we in this Country are sick of experts telling us what to do"?
Aye, righto then.. Crack on with your jollies..


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			13,000 retired medics and ancillary staff reporting for work, almost certainly knowing the infection rates amongst medics. Almost half a million volunteers register to help out in society. And countless, countless, countless good people out there doing all sorts of things.

There's idiots all over the place who get far more airtime than the multitudes of good people.
		
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Does that mean there are no selfish idiots on the streets?


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Really? Or are you on the wind up again?

You genuinely have no recollection of anyone ever stating that "we in this Country are sick of experts telling us what to do"?
Aye, righto then.. Crack on with your jollies..
		
Click to expand...

You on a crack pipe today?


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			North Yorkshire Police now doing checkpoints to stop the dafties and selfish.

Emergency services sadly being diverted and out at risk for clowns who can't do as instructed.
		
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This was always going to happen sadly.
So many idiots who think it dosnt apply to them.


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## bluewolf (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			You on a crack pipe today?
		
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I think I'm going to need to be to carry on this.. Have your fun with someone else today.. I'm busy washing my hair..


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Does that mean there are no selfish idiots on the streets?
		
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Now you're just being a prat. What does my last sentence say? "There's idiots all over the place..."


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Now you're just being a prat. What does my last sentence say? "There's idiots all over the place..."
		
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A prat? 

How charming.


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## Slab (Mar 26, 2020)

Worth remembering folks, when this virus was ravaging China throughout Feb this forum was generating hundreds of posts about one TV celeb who announced he was gay and another who killed herself, iirc none of us were posting about the thousands already dying in China

That's how important we thought it was/we are


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think I'm going to need to be to carry on this.. Have your fun with someone else today.. I'm busy washing my hair.. 

Click to expand...

Busy sitting on your backside talking pish. 

Cheerio


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Really, just none. I was at Manchester picadilly yesterday at 1915. It's a big and very busy station. The only people on the concourse were staff. it was extraordinary. On my train, the only one that hour to London, we had 15 people. But just carry on thinking what you like. 
My genuine concern is that as numbers improve there will be some weakening of resolve. But for now, my own lived experience is that the public is doing what's asked.
		
Click to expand...

Not thinking what I like!
Just like you telling what I seen!


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			A prat?

How charming.
		
Click to expand...

You really are bored today aren't you? Yes, a prat. If you don't like it, stop behaving like one. Read what you've posted up. My initial post on it was pretty clear. There's millions of good people, and yes there are idiots. Your reply was to ask if there were any selfish idiots... c'mon, at best you're on a wind up.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Isn’t self isolation up to you?
		
Click to expand...

Give over, it has become apparent over the last couple of weeks that thinking for yourself is a forgotten art.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You really are bored today aren't you? Yes, a prat. If you don't like it, stop behaving like one. Read what you've posted up. My initial post on it was pretty clear. There's millions of good people, and yes there are idiots. Your reply was to ask if there were any selfish idiots... c'mon, at best you're on a wind up.
		
Click to expand...

If I'm a prat for speaking the truth and you can't accept that shows more about you. Perhaps a little less sun is required.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Not thinking what I like!
Just like you telling what I seen!
		
Click to expand...

People only want to see what suits their agendas. 


The country's emergency services are stretched as thin as they can go and you still get selfish people thinking they can do what they want when they want. They put themselves and others in danger without a care.

These actions need to be stopped. Engage brains and do what is asked. It's not difficult.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

Having been out on my exercise allowance it was great to see the boys in blue sat in the normal dog walker lay-by near the beach and seeing cars hastily switching off their indicators. On the minus side, seeing both bobbys sat in the front was a bit of a mistake.


----------



## DRW (Mar 26, 2020)

Death figures update:  last night only 28 new fatalities recorded. 

Alas this is not good news, it is because there are now so many deaths NHS using a 7.30am cut off instead of 1pm.

So govt looking at changing how they are reported 1/2
		
Click to expand...





			We may not get any death figures today, as they are looking at moving to publishing first thing in the morning.

Aim is to give more time to collate NHS data and inform families before ages and locations made public
		
Click to expand...

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1243104190202818561

And going to require consent I believe, before added to the death figure.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Mar 26, 2020)

pendodave said:



			That's just nonsense, but I'll dignify it with a reply.
I've travelled into London, through it, and to Birmingham and Manchester since the start of the week. There is no-one about, just none.
But carry on making stuff up. Although it's not reported on, because it suits no-one's agenda, I suspect we are pretty much the same as other western European nations. Comparisons with other Asian countries are not helpful for a whole load of reasons.
		
Click to expand...

I would say that Monday and Tuesday going into London ( 5am) whilst being quieter than normal, there was still enough traffic around at my normal travel in time, but once the rush hour period was over the traffic dropped markedly to a point of Kensighton High St looking like a scene from the 1900's, hardly anyone on foot and almost no traffic whatsoever. My view is that there are probably still plenty of tradepersons still working because they have been told they still can.
I myself am on lockdown, I don't want to risk catching or more importantly pass it on so I cannot comment further on London since Tuesday.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2020)

Clearly the majority of this Country are community minded , or at least are mindful that following Government advice is in the Country's and their own best interests.
But it is also evident that too big a proportion of us are selfish and putvwhat we want to do before the common good. Shopping in the last weeks being an example.
If the present population's mindset were to be somehow magically replaced by the 1940's population mindset, I would feel a lot more confident in a better outcome from this crisis.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Clearly the majority of this Country are community minded , or at least are mindful that following Government advice is in the Country's and their own best interests.
But it is also evident that too big a proportion of us are selfish and putvwhat we want to do before the common good. Shopping in the last weeks being an example.
If the present population's mindset were to be somehow magically replaced by the 1940's population mindset, I would feel a lot more confident in a better outcome from this crisis.
		
Click to expand...

Had an idiot telling me the other night that it was against his human rights to be told to stay in.

Absolutely bonkers.

Then you get high and mighty Hobbit's calling you a prat for doing your job and insinuating your wrong.


----------



## richart (Mar 26, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Not really a fan of San Mig.
		
Click to expand...

It tastes lovely in Spain on a hot summers evening. Especially at about a Euro a pint.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

Something to keep you going during isolation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52040822


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## huds1475 (Mar 26, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			half the population is below the average IQ.
		
Click to expand...

That statement has got me wondering about the validity of the math.

I'm that bored I think I'm turning into Dr Denzil Dexter!!


----------



## User20205 (Mar 26, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			That statement has got me wondering about the validity of the math.

I'm that bored I think I'm turning into Dr Denzil Dexter!!
		
Click to expand...

Is that possible statistically, I don’t know. Maybe I’m in the wrong 1/2🤣🤣


----------



## User20205 (Mar 26, 2020)

richart said:



			It tastes lovely in Spain on a hot summers evening. Especially at about a Euro a pint.

Click to expand...

I’d rather have a San Miguel than Estella👍 From memory murph drinks Stella 😱😱😱😱 so maybe his opinion shouldn’t count


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 26, 2020)

Can we wind our respective necks in a bit

Cabin fever is a thing, take a break
Go for a walk around the kitchen 👍


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Having been out on my exercise allowance it was *great to see the boys in blue sat in the normal dog walker lay-by near the beach and seeing cars hastily switching off their indicators*. On the minus side, seeing both bobbys sat in the front was a bit of a mistake.
		
Click to expand...

Were they guarding against doggers?


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## User20205 (Mar 26, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can we wind our respective necks in a bit

Cabin fever is a thing, take a break
Go for a walk around the kitchen 👍
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣it’s only day 3, wait for week 3, month 3. Are there any others mods left ? You could be busy!


----------



## Jamesbrown (Mar 26, 2020)

Being an alleged key worker, id like see supermarkets only open to us bar one day.
So many families shopping in groups and couples when it’s not necessary. Only Peeved because I’ve been to Asda on the way to work and the queue is massive, and I hate people,  I’m selfish, and it appears we all have a disdain for anybody outside at all just lately!


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2020)

I'm quite enjoying the lockdown life ATM

Up at 6

Cbeebies until 07:40 then it's breakfast for the household 

All get dressed .. 10:00-10:30 little dog walk with the little lady 

Come back for some crafts or TV .. lunch at 12:00

Little lady has a nap 13:00-15:00 well she doesn't nap these days 

Garden play time .. her dinner then bath and bed 

Netflix for us 

Tonight I'll add head to work for my night shift 

Little routines keep you going.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

We're running out of supplies so its a shopping trip tomorrow, I hate shopping at the best of times.
Annoying thing is there's local groups willing to get our shopping, but the wife says they wont pick the correct things


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

therod said:



			🤣🤣🤣it’s only day 3, wait for week 3, month 3. Are there any others mods left ? You could be busy!
		
Click to expand...

Volunteer mods will be next.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2020)

therod said:



			🤣🤣🤣it’s only day 3, wait for week 3, month 3. Are there any others mods left ? You could be busy!
		
Click to expand...

Day 15 for some..…...and we are fine.
Coping well with the help of family friends and community.

It is at times like this when I recall my old bosses words when I first started working in Local Authority.

'99% of the public are great, best to ignore or have as little as possible to do with the 1%'


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Day 15 for some..…...and we are fine.
Coping well with the help of family friends and community.

It is at times like this when I recall my old bosses words when I first started working in Local Authority.

'99% of the public are great, best to ignore or have as little as possible to do with the 1%'
		
Click to expand...

I think that percent Has gone up lately .
How long ago was that?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			We're running out of supplies so its a shopping trip tomorrow, I hate shopping at the best of times.
Annoying thing is there's local groups willing to get our shopping, but the wife says they wont pick the correct things 

Click to expand...

Yea but have you ever tried turkey twizzles or coconut milk.
I would rather have them than infect my nearest and dearest with CV19


----------



## yandabrown (Mar 26, 2020)




----------



## User62651 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Whit?

What experts are not to be trusted?  What hidden agendas? What conspiracy theories?

Who has to be ashamed?
		
Click to expand...

I take that comment as referring to some prominent Politicians referring to economics experts, undermining them and labelling them 'Establishment' and 'not of the people' so not be be listened to, populist crapola basically, I'll leave names out of it as it's water under the bridge now and there are other threads about it. You can't tell folks to ignore experts one minute then listen to their every word as gospel the next, just to suit. That is what the Govt are doing however.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Day 15 for some..…...and we are fine.
Coping well with the help of family friends and community.

It is at times like this when I recall my old bosses words when I first started working in Local Authority.

'99% of the public are great, best to ignore or have as little as possible to do with the 1%'
		
Click to expand...

How long ago was that as I can guarantee that demographic has changes considerably!

Probably more like 60/40 these days.


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Volunteer mods will be next.
		
Click to expand...

🤔


----------



## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

Everyone please get tested !!! 

The UK is taking the coronavirus seriously:

New testing is now being conducted without the need to leave your house, so no hospital visit necessary.

All you have to do is mail your stool sample to:

Testing Health - Faecal Covid (THFC)
White Hart Lane
Tottenham
London

ADDED NOTE: 
Large samples give a more accurate result 💩💩


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I take that comment as referring to some prominent Politicians referring to economics experts, undermining them and labelling them 'Establishment' and 'not of the people' so not be be listened to, populist crapola basically, I'll leave names out of it as it's water under the bridge now and there are other threads about it. You can't tell folks to ignore experts one minute then listen to their every word as gospel the next, just to suit. That is what the Govt are doing however.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure why you would listen to an economic expert rather than a medically trained expert in a time line this. Shows how stupid the public are then and further backs my point.

Thanks for clearing that up as I've not seen that in any other thread. Makes things easier instead of accusing people of being on the wind up.


----------



## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			How long ago was that as I can guarantee that demographic has changes considerably!

Probably more like 60/40 these days.
		
Click to expand...


Agreed but that is a societal problem. We live in a must have everything and have it now, I'm as guilty as the next. This is going to be a real wake up world that the world probably needed.


----------



## IanM (Mar 26, 2020)

My 81 year old mum is the worry.... she is partially disabled and the self isolation bit is doing her head in.   Video calling her every day and sometimes several times a day, but it isn't doing very much good.  A neighbour of hers of similar age insists on going out shopping everyday as "she's too old to care."  
I can't see any decent outcome here at all


----------



## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			My 81 year old mum is the worry.... she is partially disabled and the self isolation bit is doing her head in.   Video calling her every day and sometimes several times a day, but it isn't doing very much good.  *A neighbour of hers of similar age insists on going out shopping everyday as "she's too old to care." *
I can't see any decent outcome here at all
		
Click to expand...


I get where she is coming from. At the age she is, she will know she is going to die of something and it's likely to be sooner rather than later, so she's possibly made that choice.


----------



## IanM (Mar 26, 2020)

Trouble is, she is visiting her neighbours and ignoring the isolation advice completely.  I get her choice but she's ignoring the effect on others......


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## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

Oh don't get me started on that, already had that out with a few on our works FB page.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Trouble is, she is visiting her neighbours and ignoring the isolation advice completely.  I get her choice but she's ignoring the effect on others......
		
Click to expand...

They don’t have to let her in.
So are making choices that suit them.
We might not like it but that’s the way that generation are.
My dad made some bad choices but he knew he was dying so it’s very hard to try and change their behaviour.
All you can do is keep contacting her.
Best of luck.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

Just seen a video of the Beatles I want to hold your hand.
Changed to I want to wash my hands, brilliant .
Well worth a look.
Sorry no link I am useless at stuff like that.


----------



## yandabrown (Mar 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just seen a video of the Beatles I want to hold your hand.
Changed to I want to wash my hands, brilliant .
Well worth a look.
Sorry no link I am useless at stuff like that.
		
Click to expand...

This one?:


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Spain

Coronavirus - THURSDAY 26th March
 - 56.188 infected (+8.578 over the previous day)
 - 4.089 deaths (+655 over the previous day).

Infected;
 MONDAY------TUESDAY----WEDNESDAY-----THURSDAY
 33.089--------39.673--------47.610-----------56.188

Deaths;
 MONDAY------TUESDAY----WEDNESDAY-----THURSDAY
 2.181---------2.696----------3.434-----------4.089


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 26, 2020)

There's a webpage with a regular update on cases
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I saw it on the news last night that Russia are still saying that it is not a problem.  Look at the reported cases on this link.  This is what happens when you have megalomaniacs in charge.


----------



## Lincoln Quaker (Mar 26, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			There's a webpage with a regular update on cases
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

I saw it on the news last night that Russia are still saying that it is not a problem.  Look at the reported cases on this link.  This is what happens when you have megalomaniacs in charge.
		
Click to expand...

Just had a look at that.

3 for Russia, not a chance they are that low.

I see the Cruise ship even has its own column


----------



## Rlburnside (Mar 26, 2020)

Just been on radio in Scotland that front line worker is at home self isolating but not had test , he’s angry that nhs Grampian went to Balmoral to test Charles and Camilla.


----------



## AmandaJR (Mar 26, 2020)

Delivered the village parish news earlier. It is essential as it has information for vulnerable households regarding help that's available. It was weird as village very quiet but also felt weirdly vulnerable walking round the houses. All our walks are straight into the fields usually. Wore gloves and was going fine until I was just about to open a letter box when the homeowner opened the door. We both jumped back in a panic and he blurted "chuck it on the mat"! Got home, disposed of gloves and sanitised, washed and sanitised hands again for good measure.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			Everyone please get tested !!!

The UK is taking the coronavirus seriously:

New testing is now being conducted without the need to leave your house, so no hospital visit necessary.

All you have to do is mail your stool sample to:

Testing Health - Faecal Covid (THFC)
White Hart Lane
Tottenham
London

ADDED NOTE:
Large samples give a more accurate result 💩💩
		
Click to expand...

Hope it doesn't hit the fan


----------



## huds1475 (Mar 26, 2020)

therod said:



			Is that possible statistically, I don’t know. Maybe I’m in the wrong 1/2🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Probably.

Once I run out of fingers and toes I'm stumped!


----------



## Slime (Mar 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			Everyone please get tested !!!

The UK is taking the coronavirus seriously:

New testing is now being conducted without the need to leave your house, so no hospital visit necessary.

All you have to do is mail your stool sample to:

Testing Health - Faecal Covid (THFC)
White Hart Lane
Tottenham
London

ADDED NOTE:
Large samples give a more accurate result 💩💩
		
Click to expand...




williamalex1 said:



			Hope it doesn't hit the fan 

Click to expand...

Are you referring to Orikoru?


----------



## DRW (Mar 26, 2020)

Self employed announcement made, very generous for most self employed businesses. 80% of profits of the last 3 years profits to a max of £2500 per months (provided under £50000 profits I think he said)

Delay in implementation probably about June time before funds arrived and HMRC to write to you.

SILH< your son has 4 weeks to get in his tax return, or he wouldn't be due it.


----------



## huds1475 (Mar 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			Self employed announcement made, very generous for most self employed businesses. 80% of profits of the last 3 years profits to a max of £2500 per months (provided under £50000 profits I think he said)

Delay in implementation probably about June time before funds arrived and HMRC to write to you.

SILH< your son has 4 weeks to get in his tax return, or he wouldn't be due it.
		
Click to expand...

He did say < 50k profits.

Can't remember if he said average profits over 3 years.

Will wait for accountant to drop me a note. Hes more thorough than I am


----------



## huds1475 (Mar 26, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			He did say < 50k profits.

Can't remember if he said average profits over 3 years.

Will wait for accountant to drop me a note. Hes more thorough than I am 

Click to expand...

Averaged over 3 years. Sunak just cleared up


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			Self employed announcement made, very generous for most self employed businesses. 80% of profits of the last 3 years profits to a max of £2500 per months (provided under £50000 profits I think he said)

Delay in implementation probably about June time before funds arrived and HMRC to write to you.

SILH< your son has 4 weeks to get in his tax return, or he wouldn't be due it.
		
Click to expand...

It seems very fair and reasonable. The chancellor is coming across as a very impressive operator.


----------



## USER1999 (Mar 26, 2020)

therod said:



			I’d rather have a San Miguel than Estella👍 From memory murph drinks Stella 😱😱😱😱 so maybe his opinion shouldn’t count
		
Click to expand...

Climb back under your rock! Stella is lovely. Nothing beats industrial cooking lager.

Nice to see you back on here by the way.


----------



## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It seems very fair and reasonable. The chancellor is coming across as a very impressive operator.
		
Click to expand...

The previous chancellor impressed me with morals when told to sack his people to keep his job 

This guy has impressed me with how quickly he has taken the roll and just done what he can

Noticed his comment about leveling taxes though ...wonder what he actually meant eh


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

Slime said:



			Are you referring to Orikoru?
		
Click to expand...

No


----------



## SaintHacker (Mar 26, 2020)

Its not just the teens who don't care, this is what we're up against...


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

I'm really missing my Chinese dinners


----------



## Andy (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm really missing my Chinese dinners 

Click to expand...

Ordered a chinese last night. Chinese bloke come's to the door, and i walked out to meet him. He started shouting " isolate isolate". I said calm down mate you're not that late, i only ordered a few minutes ago.!!


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think that percent Has gone up lately .
How long ago was that?
		
Click to expand...

1984...….....my gawd I'm old.


----------



## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Its not just the teens who don't care, this is what we're up against...







Click to expand...


You can't cure stupid.


----------



## Beezerk (Mar 26, 2020)

Went out into the local woods on my bike this afternoon, place was really busy yet again, felt like a normal summers evening with the amount of people who were there. 
Lots of solo people running which is great, but lots of families and multiple families all walking in packs.
Mental.


----------



## Mudball (Mar 26, 2020)

May sound very in-British, but Hope everyone joins in today...  our street is going to join in from doors, balconies and street level


----------



## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			May sound very in-British, but Hope everyone joins in today...  our street is going to join in from doors, balconies and street level
		
Click to expand...

We've just done the Spanish 8 o'clock clap, and with shouted messages to various neighbours we'll be out again at 9pm, 8 o'clock GMT.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			May sound very in-British, but Hope everyone joins in today...  our street is going to join in from doors, balconies and street level
		
Click to expand...

I know a lot of the staff at work appreciate the gesture and it has been a hot topic of conversation, but the cynics amongst them would like more PPE gear from the government, a salary when this is over to recognise the work they do every day, not just during this crisis and some eggs, meat and rice. If anyone is thinking of taking part, thank you from someone that is seeing daily how far over and beyond, all of the staff are going from the ward clerks taking a steady influx of calls with diligence and fielding them efficiently, the admin staff diverted to deal with escalation processes, to staff taken out of their comfort zone and working on the front line in A&E or ICU and of course those doctors and nurses working long hours in testing conditions in PPE equipment (the stuff we have) especially things like tornado masks. THANK YOU ONE AND ALL. Your support will be hugely appreciated and will make a massive confidence and morale


----------



## DaveR (Mar 26, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Did you actually have the flu or did you have the cold, as is the case for most people when they claim they have the flu?
		
Click to expand...

Can you back up that claim with any facts?


----------



## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The previous chancellor impressed me with morals when told to sack his people to keep his job

This guy has impressed me with how quickly he has taken the roll and just done what he can

Noticed his comment *about leveling taxes though* ...wonder what he actually meant eh
		
Click to expand...

I think he'll want to address the NI differences with employed and self-employed as well as the wangle used by many high profile celebrities and who claim employment by their own companies but have only one customer and/or claim to be freelance using the low corporation tax rather than be high rate taxpayers.

HMRC will gather considerable insight into the affairs of many of the SE and the shell companies to help close loop holes and tax avoidance schemes


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2020)

Rant.  What is it with joggers/runners.

We go out for a short early evening walk through very quiet park and fields - actively remaining aware of anyone else behind or coming towards us - to make sure we absolutely maintain at least 2m separation - stopping and waiting where the path is about to narrow - and other walkers do likewise.

But joggers (well the ones we've encountered) just keep running - straight towards you or right up behind you and past less than 2m away.  Really, really pees us off.  What is it with runners that makes then think that they don't need to do their part in maintaining separation - that they and only they don't have to stop and wait for someone else.

Rant over.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rant.  What is it with joggers.

We go out for a short early evening walk through very quiet park and fields - actively remaining aware of anyone else behind or coming towards us - to make sure we absolutely maintain at least 2m separation - stopping and waiting where the path is about to narrow - and other walkers do likewise.

But joggers just keep running - straight towards you or right up behind you and past less than 2m away.  Really, really pees us off.  What is it with runners that makes then think that they don't need to do their part in maintaining separation - that they and only they don't have to stop and wait for someone else.

Rant over.
		
Click to expand...

While sweating and panting everywhere.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I know a lot of the staff at work appreciate the gesture and it has been a hot topic of conversation, but the cynics amongst them would like more PPE gear from the government, a salary when this is over to recognise the work they do every day, not just during this crisis and some eggs, meat and rice. If anyone is thinking of taking part, thank you from someone that is seeing daily how far over and beyond, all of the staff are going from the ward clerks taking a steady influx of calls with diligence and fielding them efficiently, the admin staff diverted to deal with escalation processes, to staff taken out of their comfort zone and working on the front line in A&E or ICU and of course those doctors and nurses working long hours in testing conditions in PPE equipment (the stuff we have) especially things like tornado masks. THANK YOU ONE AND ALL. Your support will be hugely appreciated and will make a massive confidence and morale
		
Click to expand...

The PPE has been distributed to the NHS, the problem is the ability of the NHS to sort out their distribution problems. The continued blame of the government is unfair on this point IMO. Norfolk had a major delivery yet we get the staff on the Norfolk blood donation organisation complaining about no PPE.

Just back from a Logie RM group at Chivnor who have been involved and at the distribution centres that they went to the staff there just stood on one side and left the unloading to the boys. Seems like there are areas of the NHS letting their own colleagues down.


----------



## upsidedown (Mar 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			May sound very in-British, but Hope everyone joins in today...  our street is going to join in from doors, balconies and street level
		
Click to expand...

Only 3 houses where we live but we'll be doing it


----------



## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

DRW said:



			Self employed announcement made, very generous for most self employed businesses. 80% of profits of the last 3 years profits to a max of £2500 per months (provided under £50000 profits I think he said)

Delay in implementation probably about June time before funds arrived and HMRC to write to you.

SILH< your son has 4 weeks to get in his tax return, or he wouldn't be due it.
		
Click to expand...

I doubt many new start-ups will show a profit per se, what with set-up costs etc, sometimes it takes a couple of years before you start seeing the nuggets fall to the bottom line. 

Not sure what the SE can claim that only started within this financial year, thus no accounts, I think he should have made a different (smaller) allowance for them based on their accounts forecast? 

I’m still trying to find some clarity towards being SE trading through a limited co, as such being a director drawing max allowance monthly plus top up,  thus PAYE, but too early to take dividends yet, so am I SE and claim 80% of profits or PAYE and claim 80% of my directors monthly allowance wage only or what I pay myself PAYE?


----------



## bobmac (Mar 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rant.  What is it with joggers/runners.

We go out for a short early evening walk through very quiet park and fields - actively remaining aware of anyone else behind or coming towards us - to make sure we absolutely maintain at least 2m separation - stopping and waiting where the path is about to narrow - and other walkers do likewise.

But joggers (well the ones we've encountered) just keep running - straight towards you or right up behind you and past less than 2m away.  Really, really pees us off.  What is it with runners that makes then think that they don't need to do their part in maintaining separation - that they and only they don't have to stop and wait for someone else.

Rant over.
		
Click to expand...

Don't go out then


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## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			I doubt many new start-ups will show a profit per se, what with set-up costs etc, sometimes it takes a couple of years before you start seeing the nuggets fall to the bottom line.

Not sure what the SE can claim that only started within this financial year, thus no accounts, I think he should have made a different (smaller) allowance for them based on their accounts forecast?

I’m still trying to find some clarity towards being SE trading through a limited co, as such being a director drawing max allowance monthly plus top up,  thus PAYE, but too early to take dividends yet, so am I SE and claim 80% of profits or PAYE and claim 80% of my directors monthly allowance wage only or what I pay myself PAYE?
		
Click to expand...

Guy from the small business group seemed pretty switched on, missed what he said his web site was but might be worth seeing if it's on iplayer


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Don't go out then
		
Click to expand...

He needs to be sorting his lads tax return.


----------



## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The PPE has been distributed to the NHS, the problem is the ability of the NHS to sort out their distribution problems. The continued blame of the government is unfair on this point IMO. Norfolk had a major delivery yet we get the staff on the Norfolk blood donation organisation complaining about no PPE.

Just back from a Logie RM group at Chivnor who have been involved and at the distribution centres that they went to the staff there just stood on one side and left the unloading to the boys. Seems like there are areas of the NHS letting their own colleagues down.
		
Click to expand...

They need to bring back the Lightnings into Chivenor and get then to light up the afterburners - they'd be jumping around after that


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			I doubt many new start-ups will show a profit per se, what with set-up costs etc, sometimes it takes a couple of years before you start seeing the nuggets fall to the bottom line.

Not sure what the SE can claim that only started within this financial year, thus no accounts, I think he should have made a different (smaller) allowance for them based on their accounts forecast?

I’m still trying to find some clarity towards being SE trading through a limited co, as such being a director drawing max allowance monthly plus top up,  thus PAYE, but too early to take dividends yet, so am I SE and claim 80% of profits or PAYE and claim 80% of my directors monthly allowance wage only or what I pay myself PAYE?
		
Click to expand...

I’ve found Fundy’s thread now so I’m much clearer where I stand.


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## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			They need to bring back the Lightnings into Chivenor and get then to light up the afterburners - they'd be jumping around after that 

Click to expand...

That must be going back some time.


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## upsidedown (Mar 26, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Only 3 houses where we live but we'll be doing it
		
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Neighbours did it but then when we stopped we could hear horns hooting in the distance . Gorgeous new moon and once the horns stopped so so quiet


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The PPE has been distributed to the NHS, the problem is the ability of the NHS to sort out their distribution problems. The continued blame of the government is unfair on this point IMO. Norfolk had a major delivery yet we get the staff on the Norfolk blood donation organisation complaining about no PPE.

Just back from a Logie RM group at Chivnor who have been involved and at the distribution centres that they went to the staff there just stood on one side and left the unloading to the boys. Seems like there are areas of the NHS letting their own colleagues down.
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn't argue. NHS logistics arrived at 10.00pm last night and wondered why there was no staff there to help unload. We are getting stuff in but as of tonight have escalated out of ICU into the next pod in theatres and there is serious concern bearing in mind how often staff have to get in and out of PPE whether there will be enough. I know our technicians have been busting their guts, calling in favours, cajoling and begging to get as much of everything as possible and doing daft hours in the process. It is drifting in but as you agree, not sure we have the joined up processes in place, certainly compared to what the army can and do do


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2020)

Several houses in our street clapped and could hear clapping in the background from other streets (as well as some fireworks!) so thank you on behalf of everyone working so hard for sparing a few minutes thinking about the NHS. A little gesture but I know it'll give everyone a boost.


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Neighbours did it but then when we stopped we could hear horns hooting in the distance . Gorgeous new moon and once the horns stopped so so quiet 

Click to expand...

Very good display here...only houses in the street that didn't were a couple of very old frail ladies.
Good show


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## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We've just done the Spanish 8 o'clock clap, and with shouted messages to various neighbours we'll be out again at 9pm, 8 o'clock GMT.
		
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Quite disappointed out of 27 houses in our street only the wife, me and the neighbours across the road did it, quite surprised really, I was all dressed up with a carrier bag with eye holes over my head and my rubber gloves .


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

I live on the outskirts of our village and was pleasantly surprised to hear how well.it was supported. 

Genuinely didn't expect to hear what I did and it shows great respect for a wonderful resource we have that is stretched to the limit.

NHS IS A NATIONAL TREASURE.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Quite disappointed out of 27 houses in our street only the wife, me and the neighbours across the road did it, quite surprised really, I was all dressed up with a carrier bag with eye holes over my head and my rubber gloves .

Click to expand...

Studded dog collar to complete the fetish? Sorry I mean look!!!


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## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Studded dog collar to complete the fetish? Sorry I mean look!!!
		
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Surgical gloves too, if you would like your prostate checked out


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Day 4,327 of lockdown.


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## bobmac (Mar 26, 2020)

What lockdown?  

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/coronavirus-nhs-lincolnshire-covid-19-3982435


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2020)

To all my forum friends that have just taken a few minutes to applaud the NHS staff, I thank you on behalf and each and everyone of my colleagues in every NHS function across the UK. Such a small gesture but it means so much. As someone working in an ICU and working with such a dedicated, professional and caring bunch on a daily basis, it fills me with pride to watch how they are facing this crisis head on with steadfastness, compassion and humour. We are one and we will get through it. Thanks again guys. Stay safe, and stay indoors. I can tell you from what I see daily, it really does make a difference


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## AmandaJR (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Quite disappointed out of 27 houses in our street only the wife, me and the neighbours across the road did it, quite surprised really, I was all dressed up with a carrier bag with eye holes over my head and my rubber gloves .

Click to expand...

Ahh that's a shame. Our village as a whole seemed to embrace the idea and felt lovely to be part of it.


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## Orikoru (Mar 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rant.  What is it with joggers/runners.

We go out for a short early evening walk through very quiet park and fields - actively remaining aware of anyone else behind or coming towards us - to make sure we absolutely maintain at least 2m separation - stopping and waiting where the path is about to narrow - and other walkers do likewise.

But joggers (well the ones we've encountered) just keep running - straight towards you or right up behind you and past less than 2m away.  Really, really pees us off.  What is it with runners that makes then think that they don't need to do their part in maintaining separation - that they and only they don't have to stop and wait for someone else.

Rant over.
		
Click to expand...

Generally someone on a run is probably trying to achieve a particular time or milestone - or for me personally if I had to stop and stand still for 30 seconds it completely ruins the run for me because I'm trying to complete the distance without stopping. On the runs I've been doing I run right out in the road to get round people if there's no car coming, but also people have been courteous and stood to one side for a second. If there's no space I just hold my breath while I run past!


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## Lincoln Quaker (Mar 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What lockdown?  

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/coronavirus-nhs-lincolnshire-covid-19-3982435

Click to expand...

Incredible. 

Nothing would surprise me anymore with local councils. 

Greed


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## Slime (Mar 26, 2020)

I might have to start a new Football Manager game.
I'm thinking maybe Rangers, try and achieve what Stevie G can't.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

So I'm listening to another utter bawbag on the telly telling us that these Police powers are to Draconian.

This is what we're up against.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Slime said:



			I might have to start a new Football Manager game.
I'm thinking maybe Rangers, try and achieve what Stevie G can't.
		
Click to expand...

What a harmonious dressing room?


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## rosecott (Mar 26, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Quite disappointed out of 27 houses in our street only the wife, me and the neighbours across the road did it, quite surprised really, I was all dressed up with a carrier bag with eye holes over my head and my rubber gloves .

Click to expand...

Surely that's your normal bedroom attire?


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## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Surely that's your normal bedroom attire?
		
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Indeed Jim, you've been peeking again lol


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2020)

Slime said:



			I might have to start a new Football Manager game.
I'm thinking maybe Rangers, try and achieve what Stevie G can't.
		
Click to expand...

Currently downloading it as I type. Had made do with the app but after a few goes it gets pretty easy and lacks the depth. So will start a new career tomorrow as my Internet is awful 2mb atm 😭😭


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## Mudball (Mar 26, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To all my forum friends that have just taken a few minutes to applaud the NHS staff, I thank you on behalf and each and everyone of my colleagues in every NHS function across the UK. Such a small gesture but it means so much. As someone working in an ICU and working with such a dedicated, professional and caring bunch on a daily basis, it fills me with pride to watch how they are facing this crisis head on with steadfastness, compassion and humour. We are one and we will get through it. Thanks again guys. Stay safe, and stay indoors. I can tell you from what I see daily, it really does make a difference
		
Click to expand...

Homer ... thanks for what all of you are doing.. I hope it gets recognition in the long term not just at this silly time. 
HID is a dentist and I have some surreal conversations with her ranging from lack of PPE to wanting to keep their practice open for emergencies (as it stops people going to A&E ). . As self employed (don’t ask), she is unlikely to get paid for it till June. But we can hopefully cover that. Naturally as a family, we would want her to stay home and stay safe but I must say medicos are wired differently. So all I can do is give a patient ear and pray  

Keep up the good work guys and we will all make it to the other side.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Day 4,327 of lockdown.

View attachment 29510

Click to expand...

I've seen a few posted of the bottom half lol


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

Slime said:



			I might have to start a new Football Manager game.
I'm thinking maybe Rangers, try and achieve what Stevie G can't.
		
Click to expand...

What, stay up on 2 feet 👍😂😂


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Very good display here...only houses in the street that didn't were a couple of very old frail ladies.
Good show

Click to expand...

And here.  Age span of 90 odd years from a toddler to the nonagenarian over the road with most points in-between covered.  Well done team


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 26, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Currently downloading it as I type. Had made do with the app but after a few goes it gets pretty easy and lacks the depth. So will start a new career tomorrow as my Internet is awful 2mb atm 😭😭
		
Click to expand...

Have you got a link to the download? I really want to get Football Manager 2005 on my new laptop but foolishly got one without a CD drive so can't install it.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Have you got a link to the download? I really want to get Football Manager 2005 on my new laptop but foolishly got one without a CD drive so can't install it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm playing this years one. From steam.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 26, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Just been on radio in Scotland that front line worker is at home self isolating but not had test , he’s angry that nhs Grampian went to Balmoral to test Charles and Camilla.
		
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I don’t blame him .
It’s a joke.


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			That must be going back some time.
		
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Yup I used to lie in the dunes and watch while bunking off from College at Sticklepath in the 60s. Mates father was a lead pilot.


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## USER1999 (Mar 26, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Generally someone on a run is probably trying to achieve a particular time or milestone - or for me personally if I had to stop and stand still for 30 seconds it completely ruins the run for me because I'm trying to complete the distance without stopping. On the runs I've been doing I run right out in the road to get round people if there's no car coming, but also people have been courteous and stood to one side for a second. If there's no space I just hold my breath while I run past!
		
Click to expand...

If you are really worried about timing your run right now, you have missed the point. You should be appreciating the few moments you are out. 

What part of stay at home do people not get?


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## Orikoru (Mar 26, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			If you are really worried about timing your run right now, you have missed the point. You should be appreciating the few moments you are out.

What part of stay at home do people not get?
		
Click to expand...

With all due respect, kindly sod off. If going for run is all I'm allowed to do - and I am allowed - then I will do it the way I see fit.


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Talking to a senior Sister/nurse manager from one of the London hospitals this afternoon. She retired last week and, yesterday, asked her boss could she come back this week. "No, not this week. In two weeks time when 20% of the team are off sick."

Bearing in mind the infections rate amongst medics over here, 13% generally and over 20% in acute care, not a bad call.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			With all due respect, kindly sod off. If going for run is all I'm allowed to do - and I am allowed - then I will do it the way I see fit.
		
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You are allowed but please respect others wishes to have the 2m distance observed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 26, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Only 3 houses where we live but we'll be doing it
		
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Bit like us then, I meant to do it but was deep into a telephone call with my daughter.
Heard some strange noise outside and could not think what it was.
Half an hour later I fathomed out that it was our three other neighbours clapping.
Really feel guilty for missing it now.


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## Orikoru (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			You are allowed but please respect others wishes to have the 2m distance observed.
		
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I bloody said I did if you actually read it. I said I ran off the pavement and into the road to avoid people.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 26, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I bloody said I did if you actually read it. I said I ran off the pavement and into the road to avoid people.
		
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Oooft "bloody" - hard man


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I bloody said I did if you actually read it. I said I ran off the pavement and into the road to avoid people.
		
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I hope you were facing traffic as the highways act demands 😏


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## Orikoru (Mar 26, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Oooft "bloody" - hard man
		
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You know as well as I do we can't say anything post-watershed on here!


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 26, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I bloody said I did if you actually read it. I said I ran off the pavement and into the road to avoid people.
		
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If golf is frowned upon in here, so should running, could break an ankle! Cycling shouldn’t be allowed, could fall off and seriously hurt yourself. 

Personally I’m not doing either or care but need some balance with all the bashing!


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## ScienceBoy (Mar 26, 2020)

Only just heard about this NHS clapping thing.

Was a bit baffled by the video clips on the news site which literally seemed to show people gathering in the streets.

All for appreciating the NHS but not in a way that could strain it more than it already is strained.

If I worked for the NHS I would be pretty irate about people going outside all at once at this time.


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## Fish (Mar 26, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			If golf is frowned upon in here, so should running, could break an ankle! Cycling shouldn’t be allowed, could fall off and seriously hurt yourself.

Personally I’m not doing either or care but need some balance with all the bashing!
		
Click to expand...

I agree, exercise should be walking only, we should do nothing that if it went wrong could put more pressure on an already overstretched NHS, walk don’t run, or cycle, or skip, or dance, prance, get a grip the lot of you 😜


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## MegaSteve (Mar 26, 2020)

I can probably see twenty other homes, from my porch, pleased to say all adjacent neighbours were out... Several work within the NHS and flowers had been left by their doors to come out to...


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2020)

Every other day we've had a guy come round in his little truck- think of the greenkeeper spraying the fairway, spraying the street. About an hour later he's round again with a backpack doing the pavements. Just received notification that we are to keep all windows and doors closed between 9am and 11am when the village will be disinfected from the air.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Don't go out then
		
Click to expand...

er rather trite - no - runners just behave the same as everyone else


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## User20204 (Mar 26, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			Only just heard about this NHS clapping thing.

Was a bit baffled by the video clips on the news site which literally seemed to show people gathering in the streets.

All for appreciating the NHS but not in a way that could strain it more than it already is strained.

If I worked for the NHS I would be pretty irate about people going outside all at once at this time.
		
Click to expand...


This is a wind up right ?


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## robinthehood (Mar 26, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I bloody said I did if you actually read it. I said I ran off the pavement and into the road to avoid people.
		
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It's total BS,  bothered by runners puffing.?
What about vape clouds and obese walkers huffing and puffing up the hills.
Pfft what a total crock.


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## huds1475 (Mar 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Every other day we've had a guy come round in his little truck- think of the greenkeeper spraying the fairway, spraying the street. About an hour later he's round again with a backpack doing the pavements. Just received notification that we are to keep all windows and doors closed between 9am and 11am when the village will be disinfected from the air.
		
Click to expand...

Heavy duty stuff that Brian. 

Hope it does the business


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## Slab (Mar 27, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			With all due respect, kindly sod off. If going for run is all I'm allowed to do - and I am allowed - then I will do it the way I see fit.
		
Click to expand...

I get that in the UK you're allowed to (doesn't mean you have to though) 
But if you choose to go out I think it would help if everyone only went out 50% of what they planned
Either go for half the time/distance or go only every other day
If everyone did that the interactions would also fall by half, that's gotta be a good thing, and is there any downside?


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## bobmac (Mar 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			er rather trite - no - runners just behave the same as everyone else
		
Click to expand...

I'm just repeating the advice given by every expert on the planet.

I notice you didn't have a go at Orikoru for going out running and holding his breathe if there's no room.


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## bobmac (Mar 27, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			With all due respect, kindly sod off. If going for run is all I'm allowed to do - and I am allowed - then I will do it the way I see fit.
		
Click to expand...

I'm done


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2020)

Fish said:



			I agree, exercise should be walking only, *we should do nothing that if it went wrong could put more pressure on an already overstretched NHS*, walk don’t run, or cycle, or skip, or dance, prance, get a grip the lot of you 😜
		
Click to expand...

I think you've just defined "life" ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm just repeating the advice given by every expert on the planet.

I notice you didn't have a go at Orikoru for going out running and holding his breathe if there's no room.
		
Click to expand...

I hadn’t read that post and could say exactly the same.

Anyway.  Looked like our whole road came out last night and stood by their doors and applauded.


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## Captainron (Mar 27, 2020)

Having to put up with the missus worrying about the bloody virus. She reads so much crap online about it and is convinced everyone she loves will die from it. Driving me bloody nuts.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2020)

Forget the runners, it's the bloody mamils that are driving me nuts.  I mean what do you look like, pretending you are in a stage of the Tour de France?  You are a middle aged accountant riding down a lane, not Chris Froome going up Alp D'Huez, just put a pair of shorts on and a t shirt and grow up for gods sake.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 27, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Having to put up with the missus worrying about the bloody virus. She reads so much crap online about it and is convinced everyone she loves will die from it. Driving me bloody nuts.
		
Click to expand...

While I'm not "convinced that anyone/everyone I love will die" I have to admit that I'm also worried about it.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Every other day we've had a guy come round in his little truck- think of the greenkeeper spraying the fairway, spraying the street. About an hour later he's round again with a backpack doing the pavements. Just received notification that we are to keep all windows and doors closed between 9am and 11am when the village will be disinfected from the air.
		
Click to expand...

I have not seen anything like this here, South Korea were doing this quite early on.
It does seem very sensible.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

Hooray!!! Message appears to have, at last, got through... Public transport is for essential travel ONLY... Top marks to Sadiq for sticking to message... And, shame on you Hancock for seeking to suggest otherwise...


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## Jacko_G (Mar 27, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I have not seen anything like this here, South Korea were doing this quite early on.
It does seem very sensible.
		
Click to expand...

South Korea are a nation of discipline though. They can track any person at any time via phones and bank card use, they can respond directly to where people have travelled and take steps. They are an incredibly advanced nation. They also have a better manufacturing and research industry and went straight into developing test kits for early diagnosis. 

If you tried any of those measures in this country you'd have all the human rights idiots up in arms.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Hooray!!! Message appears to have, at last, got through... Public transport is for essential travel ONLY... Top marks to Sadiq for sticking to message... And, shame on you Hancock for seeking to suggest otherwise...
		
Click to expand...

Link ?


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## harpo_72 (Mar 27, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Forget the runners, it's the bloody mamils that are driving me nuts.  I mean what do you look like, pretending you are in a stage of the Tour de France?  You are a middle aged accountant riding down a lane, not Chris Froome going up Alp D'Huez, just put a pair of shorts on and a t shirt and grow up for gods sake. 

Click to expand...

Is it not the same as men wearing full favourite football team kit to have a kick about ?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Link ?
		
Click to expand...

Doing links, on a tablet, is beyond me... All been covered in the news...


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## Captainron (Mar 27, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			While I'm not "convinced that anyone/everyone I love will die" I have to admit that I'm also worried about it.
		
Click to expand...

There’s worry (which I am too) and then there’s the other level of worry......

Which is way OTT. That’s then fuelled by the social media which she is checking constantly.


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## hovis (Mar 27, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Is it not the same as men wearing full favourite football team kit to have a kick about ?
		
Click to expand...

 no because a football kit at least looks semi fashionable and with "most people"  doesn't look like an explosion in a yeast factory.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Mar 27, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Forget the runners, it's the bloody mamils that are driving me nuts.  I mean what do you look like, pretending you are in a stage of the Tour de France?  You are a middle aged accountant riding down a lane, not Chris Froome going up Alp D'Huez, just put a pair of shorts on and a t shirt and grow up for gods sake. 

Click to expand...

The functionality of the clothing is more important than the look. It's interesting though that you are more conscious of their clothing than they are, and having been one who wore the lycra on a mountain bike...I didn't care what people thought either


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## pendodave (Mar 27, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I have not seen anything like this here, South Korea were doing this quite early on.
It does seem very sensible.
		
Click to expand...

Really though? Inside on hard surfaces might be good. Outside on soft surfaces? If be interested in seeing the science (not really, as long as people who know what they're doing see it, that's good enough for me).
Copying everything someone else does, just because, really isn't really a modus operandi I'm that bothered about.


----------



## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Doing links, on a tablet, is beyond me... All been covered in the news...
		
Click to expand...

 Yep, but I can only find stuff that's a couple days old - not seeing anything more recent from him.


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## robinthehood (Mar 27, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Really though? Inside on hard surfaces might be good. Outside on soft surfaces? If be interested in seeing the science (not really, as long as people who know what they're doing see it, that's good enough for me).
Copying everything someone else does, just because, really isn't really a modus operandi I'm that bothered about.
		
Click to expand...

It does sound a bit OTT , especially when you hear from experts about how long a virus can live outside,


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## Qwerty (Mar 27, 2020)

What will it take to relax the relaxed lockdown?  3 weeks minimum of zero new cases in the UK? 
It’s anyone’s guess when that will be due to the amount of non essential works still being undertaken and general selfish stupidity out there.


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## hovis (Mar 27, 2020)

found out this morning that the fire brigades Union have agreed for us to be used for driving ambulances and moving mass body's to morgues 😬.   not looking forward to that!!!!


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## pokerjoke (Mar 27, 2020)

Serious question 
Does anyone know how this virus has been spreading or read how?
I take my so out running every other day whilst I cycle along behind him.
We definitely keep the 2m rule easily.
Serious question again,are we at risk?
I had to go and get some bread yesterday at the local co-op when I went to the till I was a metre away from the cashier a girl around 20
Surely I’m more at risk shopping?
We have been so careful as a family since it started and have plenty of essentials generally.
Going out for food is surely a big risk?


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## pokerjoke (Mar 27, 2020)

hovis said:



			found out this morning that the fire brigades Union have agreed for us to be used for driving ambulances and moving mass body's to morgues 😬.   not looking forward to that!!!!
		
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Don’t blame you
Hard to keep your emotions in tact I suspect


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

Qwerty said:



			What will it take to relax the relaxed lockdown?  3 weeks minimum of zero new cases in the UK?
It’s anyone’s guess when that will be due to the amount of non essential works still being undertaken and general selfish stupidity out there.
		
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China are only now relaxing their movement restrictions and that’s after numbers of new cases is pretty consistently now down to zero 🙁


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Yep, but I can only find stuff that's a couple days old - not seeing anything more recent from him.
		
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In summary... Today's news indicates footfall on the tube has dropped substantially... From day one Sadiq has promoted travel on public transport is for essential use only... Hancock, earlier in the week, chimed in the service should be expanded to accommodate folk working in construction etc ... Majority not necessarily on 'essential' projects...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Serious question
Does anyone know how this virus has been spreading or read how?
I take my so out running every other day whilst I cycle along behind him.
We definitely keep the 2m rule easily.
Serious question again,are we at risk?
I had to go and get some bread yesterday at the local co-op when I went to the till I was a metre away from the cashier a girl around 20
Surely I’m more at risk shopping?
We have been so careful as a family since it started and have plenty of essentials generally.
Going out for food is surely a big risk?
		
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Briefly - it’s droplet transmitted rather than breath - is what the evidence indicates - so someone coughing and droplets hitting you plus your hands picking it up from hard surfaces - all entering body through mucus interfaces - eyes, nose, mouth  Plenty of more detailed stuff on PHE website.

on cashier risk less than 1m away - this is why many supermarkets are erecting screens between cashier and customer.


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## rosecott (Mar 27, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Having to put up with the missus worrying about the bloody virus. She reads so much crap online about it and is convinced everyone she loves will die from it. Driving me bloody nuts.
		
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Could be worse - you could let her come on this forum and read all the posts.


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## Orikoru (Mar 27, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Serious question
Does anyone know how this virus has been spreading or read how?
I take my so out running every other day whilst I cycle along behind him.
We definitely keep the 2m rule easily.
Serious question again,are we at risk?
I had to go and get some bread yesterday at the local co-op when I went to the till I was a metre away from the cashier a girl around 20
Surely I’m more at risk shopping?
We have been so careful as a family since it started and have plenty of essentials generally.
Going out for food is surely a big risk?
		
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My layman's understanding is you can catch it by touching things that an infected person has touched and then touching your face. So before and after you've been round the shop make sure you wash your hands with disinfectant thoroughly, since you probably touched quite a few items on the shelves that other people have touched. Ideally if you have cleaning wipes at home you should probably give everything you bought a quick wipe before you put it away.


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## Qwerty (Mar 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			China are only now relaxing their movement restrictions and that’s after numbers of new cases is pretty consistently now down to zero 🙁
		
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...Yep, and that is following on from stringent lockdowns. Spraying the streets with next to zero public movement.
I can’t help thinking were dragging this out unnecessarily.  Herd immunity?. at what cost.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 27, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Really though? Inside on hard surfaces might be good. Outside on soft surfaces? If be interested in seeing the science (not really, as long as people who know what they're doing see it, that's good enough for me).
Copying everything someone else does, just because, really isn't really a modus operandi I'm that bothered about.
		
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Fair point, but if they have contained it and reduced the levels of infections .. and that is case from the data. You copy it hook line and sinker till proven otherwise.. sometimes the questions have to wait till after the event. Discipline is king, individuality could be your biggest enemy. 
What we are seeing here in this country is a lack of discipline that is actively promoted and now when we need a bit of discipline and a bit of shut up and do as your told ... we still get the questioning brigade pushing back .. this is about helping others not satisfying an intellectual willy swinging competition. 
Thankfully we are only imposing fines but there are videos of the Indian police hitting people with sticks ..


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## DRW (Mar 27, 2020)

Interesting article about viral loads when you get infected and how it effects outcomes:-

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-questions-about-covid-19-and-viral-load/

Basically keep your distance and don't take in to much of the virus, not that it is quite that easy .


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 27, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Having to put up with the missus worrying about the bloody virus. She reads so much crap online about it and is convinced everyone she loves will die from it. Driving me bloody nuts.
		
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This is my daughter.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 27, 2020)

Qwerty said:



			...Yep, and that is following on from stringent lockdowns. Spraying the streets with next to zero public movement.
I can’t help thinking were dragging this out unnecessarily.  Herd immunity?. at what cost.
		
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I don't think we are "dragging it out" as you put it because of herd immunity. 
I believe it's because we appealed first to people's sense ( forlornly).
I believe China looked at the situation, said - this is what we need- and told the population "you will do it."
And if you don't , look out.
However, they are a disciplined nation overall and it seemed to work.
Let's hope our people really start trying to work together. 
Fingers crossed.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 27, 2020)

Qwerty said:



			What will it take to relax the relaxed lockdown?  3 weeks minimum of zero new cases in the UK?
It’s anyone’s guess when that will be due to the amount of non essential works still being undertaken and general selfish stupidity out there.
		
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That’s not going to happen for a while.
We’re still letting planes in from Spain with holidaymakers coming home.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Serious question
Does anyone know how this virus has been spreading or read how?
I take my so out running every other day whilst I cycle along behind him.
We definitely keep the 2m rule easily.
Serious question again,are we at risk?
I had to go and get some bread yesterday at the local co-op when I went to the till I was a metre away from the cashier a girl around 20
Surely I’m more at risk shopping?
We have been so careful as a family since it started and have plenty of essentials generally.
*Going out for food is surely a big risk*?
		
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Short answer - no.
Longer answer, depends what you regard as a big risk. 

Look at the numbers  - currently there are approx 12000 confirmed cases. That's generally regarded as an underestimate of how many actually have it. Let's say it's underestimated by a factor of 200 . (No one knows the actual factor, but 200 is quite a big one). That would put it at about 2.4 million people. Or about 4% of the population.. So, 96 out of a hundred people you meet are fine. Ok, this is all too simplistic but the proportion of infected people is low. The seriousness of the situation is making sure that the proportion stays low.  If it rises rapidly - which it can/will do -  is when the brown stuff really hits the fan. 

 But in short, for now, most people are not plague carriers. We're all confined to barracks to try to make sure it stays that way.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

hovis said:



			found out this morning that the fire brigades Union have agreed for us to be used for driving ambulances and moving mass body's to morgues 😬.   not looking forward to that!!!!
		
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Sadly, the brigade seems to be nearly always at the front when it comes to dishing out the shitty jobs... Dealing with 'incidents' on the tube is the ones my mates (in the service) dislike most...


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## User62651 (Mar 27, 2020)

Went to Lidl for a wee top up shop last night at 7pm. Pleased to note only 2 or 3 other shoppers in whole store so have noted that time as possibly a good time to go. They have closed the self checkouts since i was last in because you cant keep 2m apart, therefore you have to use the manned checkout, that means everything is touched by the checkout person which was a negative and technically you are standing a bit close for my liking to them. So I got into the store via electronic doors which is good, didn't use a basket or trolley just put stuff straight into my carrier bag which is good, was aware that items may have been touched by others as well as checkout person so apart from bananas just got packaged goods which were wiped down when i got in. No wine left at all otherwise stock not too bad. 
Jacket off first and wash hands thoroughly. 
We are still fairly low in confirmed cases in my massive healthboard geographic area (Mull of Kintyre to John O Groats) but paranoia definitely sets in. Shouldn't but it does.

Quite enjoyed reading the twitter spats re Prince of Wales with weak symptoms and Camilla with no symptoms getting NHS tested for cv19 when NHS staff on frontline can't get tested and travelling from London with a large entourage to Ballater - is that acceptable because he's a VIP or is it reckless selfish behaviour?


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Went to Lidl for a wee top up shop last night at 7pm. Pleased to note only 2 or 3 other shoppers in whole store so have noted that time as possibly a good time to go. They have closed the self checkouts since i was last in because you cant keep 2m apart, therefore you have to use the manned checkout, that means everything is touched by the checkout person which was a negative and technically you are standing a bit close for my liking to them. So I got into the store via electronic doors which is good, didn't use a basket or trolley just put stuff straight into my carrier bag which is good, was aware that items may have been touched by others as well as checkout person so apart from bananas just got packaged goods which were wiped down when i got in. No wine left at all otherwise stock not too bad.
Jacket off first and wash hands thoroughly.
We are still fairly low in confirmed cases in my massive healthboard geographic area (Mull of Kintyre to John O Groats) but paranoia definitely sets in. Shouldn't but it does.

Quite enjoyed reading the twitter spats re Prince of Wales with weak symptoms and Camilla with no symptoms getting NHS tested for cv19 when NHS staff on frontline can't get tested and travelling from London with a large entourage to Ballater - is that acceptable because he's a VIP or is it reckless selfish behaviour?
		
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The Latter.
Everybody was asked to stay in their main residence not their holiday home!


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 27, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Could be worse - you could let her come on this forum and read all the posts.
		
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Hey, you leave Tashy out of this...


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## harpo_72 (Mar 27, 2020)

hovis said:



			no because a football kit at least looks semi fashionable and with "most people"  doesn't look like an explosion in a yeast factory.
		
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Just belly and moobs and no football skill ... biggest fans were always the poorest footballers 🤣


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I don't think we are "dragging it out" as you put it because of herd immunity.
I believe it's because we appealed first to people's sense ( forlornly).
I believe China looked at the situation, said - this is what we need- and told the population "you will do it."
And if you don't , look out.
However, they are a disciplined nation overall and it seemed to work.
Let's hope our people really start trying to work together.
Fingers crossed.
		
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My youngest brother works in China, who when we spoke back at the start of the year would say the information being given out there was it was nothing, and to not worry about it. In short, it was mass hysteria and propaganda by the Western press. He doesnt say that now (he has been back quite a while now as a result).
The best example of how to deal with it I would say has been South Korea, everyone else has been lax.


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## bobmac (Mar 27, 2020)

Someone mentioned it before, can't remember who, sorry.

The virus cannot travel on its own, it needs carriers
The more time people spend mixing with others, the more it will spread, the more people will die and the longer we will be affected/quarantined.


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2020)

The main road here runs along the edge of the village, and has a roundabout halfway with a road off into the village itself. 100m either side of the roundabout, on both sides of the road, there's a police checkpoint, and one on the road into the village.

Every private vehicle is being stopped. Documents and where you are going/where have you been. "Voy al supermercado en Turre." Turre is a small town about 7 miles away. And from the Policia, "no, voy al supermercado en Los Gallardos." Basically, go and shop in the village. The village shop is about the size of your lounge, and doesn't carry a significant number of items, e.g. fresh milk.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2020)

Lady Doon managed to get two Tesco delivery slots in the last two days...……..time of bookings 4am.
The first one was a blessing as it allowed us to cancel a click and collect booked a couple of days later. [Which a young volunteer from the village was getting for us.]
Bookings are 14 days apart so feeling more relaxed about food, just hope they are stocking my wife's dietary stuff.
Bookings are limited to 80 items and max 3 items of any product [so don't be an idiot and ask for 6 single bananas] No new accounts being accepted.
Looks like they are getting their act together now.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Someone mentioned it before, can't remember who, sorry.

The virus cannot travel on its own, it needs carriers
The more time people spend mixing with others, the more it will spread, the more people will die and the longer we will be affected/quarantined.
		
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It is a really simple message........such a pity that some of our more simple citizens cannot understand it.


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 27, 2020)

Was sent this link this morning, some interesting reading. I'm no expert in this, and can only go with what we are being told to do, but, as we have seen, there is a lot of misinformation on Social Media. Don't know how qualified these chaps are (there are 12 of them), and I have no idea whether they are correct either, but they all have interesting thoughts and points on the situation

https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24...vkarphbsTYigoBqx1-PB5R57Up20hiT6RkrVEuJF9bmV4


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## Qwerty (Mar 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I don't think we are "dragging it out" as you put it because of herd immunity.
I believe it's because we appealed first to people's sense ( forlornly).
I believe China looked at the situation, said - this is what we need- and told the population "you will do it."
And if you don't , look out.
However, they are a disciplined nation overall and it seemed to work.
Let's hope our people really start trying to work together.
Fingers crossed.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, Let’s hope.
There was a video circulating a few weeks ago from a World Heath Organisation press conference, Dr Michael Ryan - Worldwide authority on Pandemic, Tropical diseases etc, Stating that speed of action was the most important thing in a pandemic crisis.
 If the hardcore lockdown worked in China, surely it will work here. Or are we simply not going down this route because the government know it’ll be too difficult to enforce in the UK.


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## DanFST (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Public transport is for essential travel ONLY... Top marks to Sadiq for sticking to message... And, shame on you Hancock for seeking to suggest otherwise...
		
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Can't see anything that has changed?

Khan's an arrogant oxygen thief. 

There is quarter of a million NHS staff in London. I can't think how many more essential workers (actual essential ones, not people with terrible bosses) are expected to get to work whilst keeping 2 metres separation when there is a skeleton tube service?

Lets not to mention this month he stated "There is NO risk in using the tube or buses" - that's a direct quote.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 27, 2020)

Qwerty said:



			...Yep, and that is following on from stringent lockdowns. Spraying the streets with next to zero public movement.
I can’t help thinking were dragging this out unnecessarily.  Herd immunity?. at what cost.
		
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Seriously???


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

So what is going on with the EU having offered us to participate in an EU-wide mass procurement of ventilators.  Hancock last Thursday on QT said we were part of it; a government source tells us earlier this week that we weren't participating as we were out of the EU; then we hear that an Email came in and our government missed it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52052694

Finding out what has gone on is not for now, but hearing this sort of stuff does not help me keep the strong trust and belief in the government that I am hanging on to - that I must hang on to - that they are doing all that they can irrespective of politics or ideology.   And then sticking the likes of Nadhim Zahawi and Alok Sharma up for interview when both then avoid answering direct and important questions really doesn't help either.

I think Hancock is doing well (though would have more belief in Hunt were he still in post); I am most impressed by Rishi Sunak - and Johnson is doing the right thing and saying the right words in the briefings - putting across the critical most important messages without personal opinion - leaving the detail about what is going on and what might happen to the experts (when I compare and contrast Johnson with his Oppo across the Pond Johnson comes wins hand-down).

So please - all I really want is honesty and straight answers to what I know are extremely difficult questions

[UPDATE]  Johnson tests positive for coronavirus


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## drdel (Mar 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what is going on with the EU having offered us to participate in an EU-wide mass procurement of ventilators.  Hancock last Thursday on QT said we were part of it; a government source tells us earlier this week that we weren't participating as we were out of the EU; then we hear that an Email came in and our government missed it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52052694

Finding out what has gone on is not for now, but hearing this sort of stuff does not help me keep the strong trust and belief in the government that I am hanging on to - that I must hang on to - that they are doing all that they can irrespective of politics or ideology.   And then sticking the likes of Nadhim Zahawi and Alok Sharma up for interview when both then avoid answering direct and important questions really doesn't help either.

I think Hancock is doing well (though would have more belief in Hunt were he still in post); I am most impressed by Rishi Sunak - and Johnson is doing the right thing and saying the right words in the briefings - putting across the critical most important messages without personal opinion - leaving the detail about what is going on and what might happen to the experts (when I compare and contrast Johnson with his Oppo across the Pond Johnson comes wins hand-down).

So please - *all I really want is honesty and straight answers to what I know are extremely difficult questions*

[UPDATE]  Johnson tests positive for coronavirus
		
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I'd just add that there are reports that the EU didn't send the email because the UK had officially left - but that might be spin as with many things at present.

I think the desire for answers mostly comes from the 24hr news appetite as many of the questions are not really key and are just 'presenters' looking to find an angle and a question no-one else bothered to ask. There is a grave danger of 'spooking the horses' thought sensational language.

IMO the post would have been better had you not bothered with the 2nd para (Finding...."


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## fundy (Mar 27, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Forget the runners, it's the bloody mamils that are driving me nuts.  I mean what do you look like, pretending you are in a stage of the Tour de France?  You are a middle aged accountant riding down a lane, not Chris Froome going up Alp D'Huez, just put a pair of shorts on and a t shirt and grow up for gods sake. 

Click to expand...


Do you say the same to all the golfers each week trying to be like Tiger Woods 


And leave us middle aged accountants out of it!!!!!!!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Can't see anything that has changed?

Khan's an arrogant oxygen thief.

There is quarter of a million NHS staff in London. I can't think how many more essential workers (actual essential ones, not people with terrible bosses) are expected to get to work whilst keeping 2 metres separation when there is a skeleton tube service?

Lets not to mention this month he stated "There is NO risk in using the tube or buses" - that's a direct quote.
		
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News bulletins, this morning, advising footfall, on the tube, dropped by 90%...

And, you think it's OK for masturbator Hancock to say it's OK, and safe, for non-essential workers to travel and room to be made for them... Really?


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2020)

Boris is certainly goin to appreciate the problem now! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52060791


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The main road here runs along the edge of the village, and has a roundabout halfway with a road off into the village itself. 100m either side of the roundabout, on both sides of the road, there's a police checkpoint, and one on the road into the village.

Every private vehicle is being stopped. Documents and where you are going/where have you been. "Voy al supermercado en Turre." Turre is a small town about 7 miles away. And from the Policia, "no, voy al supermercado en Los Gallardos." Basically, go and shop in the village. The village shop is about the size of your lounge, and doesn't carry a significant number of items, e.g. fresh milk.
		
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That's a bit harsh!  I was making an assumption that Garucha would be pushing your luck, but for them oto say that Turre is too far is a surprise


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## bobmac (Mar 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Boris is certainly goin to appreciate the problem now! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52060791

Click to expand...

Did you not see the thread ''Boris has Covid 19'' posted at 11.19?


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## Dando (Mar 27, 2020)




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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			That's a bit harsh!  I was making an assumption that Garucha would be pushing your luck, but for them oto say that Turre is too far is a surprise
		
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A Brit on the local council is going to the town hall for clarification. As you know, there's not much of anything in the village.

As an aside, the town hall has put a request out for anyone with the full face swimming masks with the integral snorkel that comes out of the top of the mask to get in touch. They'll send the policia around to collect them. Seen a pic on FB of one with a hydroscopic filter attached to the end of the snorkel.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A Brit on the local council is going to the town hall for clarification. As you know, there's not much of anything in the village.

As an aside, the town hall has put a request out for anyone with the full face swimming masks with the integral snorkel that comes out of the top of the mask to get in touch. They'll send the policia around to collect them. Seen a pic on FB of one with a hydroscopic filter attached to the end of the snorkel.
		
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Hobbit said:



			A Brit on the local council is going to the town hall for clarification. As you know, there's not much of anything in the village.

As an aside, the town hall has put a request out for anyone with the full face swimming masks with the integral snorkel that comes out of the top of the mask to get in touch. They'll send the policia around to collect them. Seen a pic on FB of one with a hydroscopic filter attached to the end of the snorkel.
		
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Ah well, getting stopped by a policeman wearing a snorkel should at least brighten ones day ?  Stay safe.


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## DanFST (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			News bulletins, this morning, advising footfall, on the tube, dropped by 90%...

And, you think it's OK for masturbator Hancock to say it's OK, and safe, for non-essential workers to travel and room to be made for them... Really?
		
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It's pretty simple, you can't keep essential workers separated when you gauge the tube service like Khan did. The footfall hasn't reduced because of that, it's just made separation impossible. I left London on the 20th. I walked from Canary Wharf to Liverpool street and saw maybe 50 people. That's despite Khan saying there was NO RISK travelling on public transport. No one listens to Khan, he's a Mayor that thinks he's deputy PM.

Where did he say that? Because I don't think that's OK, I'm 99% certain he didn't.


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## Imurg (Mar 27, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Was sent this link this morning, some interesting reading. I'm no expert in this, and can only go with what we are being told to do, but, as we have seen, there is a lot of misinformation on Social Media. Don't know how qualified these chaps are (there are 12 of them), and I have no idea whether they are correct either, but they all have interesting thoughts and points on the situation

https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24...vkarphbsTYigoBqx1-PB5R57Up20hiT6RkrVEuJF9bmV4

Click to expand...

Interesting read..
Earlier, someone was complaining that we pick and choose when to believe experts.
What strikes me from this is that there are experts on both sides who have opinions based on the science but are giving opposite views..
Just like the Brexit scenario of which experts to believe...
You picks your expert and you takes your choice.....


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			News bulletins, this morning, advising footfall, on the tube, dropped by 90%...

And, you think it's OK for masturbator Hancock to say it's OK, and safe, for non-essential workers to travel and room to be made for them... Really?
		
Click to expand...

Your putting your spin on who is and isn't in the essential worker group and those who are being made to go to work. He, and others just mentioned concern on the take of tube trains as the figures on tube workers self isolating didn't seem to warrant it.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

DanFST said:



			It's pretty simple, you can't keep essential workers separated when you gauge the tube service like Khan did. The footfall hasn't reduced because of that, it's just made separation impossible. I left London on the 20th. I walked from Canary Wharf to Liverpool street and saw maybe 50 people. That's despite Khan saying there was NO RISK travelling on public transport. No one listens to Khan, he's a Mayor that thinks he's deputy PM.

Where did he say that? Because I don't think that's OK, I'm 99% certain he didn't.
		
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He, Hancock, said it when he went into bat, for the party donors, to make excuse for the non-essential construction workers to be still on the tube...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2020)

Dando said:



View attachment 29514

Click to expand...

When I wipe down the door handles I wipe down the door bell 

Reduce the spread best we can


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your putting your spin on who is and isn't in the essential worker group and those who are being made to go to work. He, and others just mentioned concern on the take of tube trains as the figures on tube workers self isolating didn't seem to warrant it.
		
Click to expand...

Political opinion is all based on "spin"... 😉👍✌...


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Political opinion is all based on "spin"... 😉👍✌...
		
Click to expand...

Untill it distorts the truth.


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## pendodave (Mar 27, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Was sent this link this morning, some interesting reading. I'm no expert in this, and can only go with what we are being told to do, but, as we have seen, there is a lot of misinformation on Social Media. Don't know how qualified these chaps are (there are 12 of them), and I have no idea whether they are correct either, but they all have interesting thoughts and points on the situation

https://off-guardian.org/2020/03/24...vkarphbsTYigoBqx1-PB5R57Up20hiT6RkrVEuJF9bmV4

Click to expand...

There's a lot of sense here, but still a little bit too unknown at present to take a definitive view I think. I'm more in this camp than the shutting it all down one, but still obeying orders until we know more.


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Did you not see the thread ''Boris has Covid 19'' posted at 11.19?
		
Click to expand...

Yes!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Untill it distorts the truth.
		
Click to expand...

Define "the truth"?

I call it as I see/hear it from where I stand politically... No different, I suggest, from any other...


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## nickjdavis (Mar 27, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Ah well, getting stopped by a policeman wearing a snorkel should at least brighten ones day ?  Stay safe.
		
Click to expand...

My wife walked up local shop yesterday for some bread and passed a woman who was wearing a full Unicorn head/mask whilst walking her dog.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Someone mentioned it before, can't remember who, sorry.

The virus cannot travel on its own, it needs carriers
The more time people spend mixing with others, the more it will spread, the more people will die and the longer we will be affected/quarantined.
		
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Sadly I can, he was travelling & mixing with others at the time he issued the advice to the rest of us!!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

Well, I got challenged, by a member of the constabulary, whilst out earlier for my daily allowance... After a brief explanation he advised "stay safe and keep your distance from others" ... Fine, I thought (but was too spineless to question) you've got someone sat right next to you who's probably no relation...


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2020)

Qwerty said:



			...Yep, and that is following on from stringent lockdowns. Spraying the streets with next to zero public movement.
I can’t help thinking were dragging this out unnecessarily.  Herd immunity?. at what cost.
		
Click to expand...

According to one expert, the herd immunity may already be here;

https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

Food for thought?


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## hovis (Mar 27, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			According to one expert, the herd immunity may already be here;

https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

Food for thought?
		
Click to expand...

can only read if your a subscriber


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## Robster59 (Mar 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Every other day we've had a guy come round in his little truck- think of the greenkeeper spraying the fairway, spraying the street. About an hour later he's round again with a backpack doing the pavements. Just received notification that we are to keep all windows and doors closed between 9am and 11am when the village will be disinfected from the air.
		
Click to expand...

Now I know why Spain were buying all the old stockpiles of Agent Orange


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, I got challenged, by a member of the constabulary, whilst out earlier for my daily allowance... After a brief explanation he advised "stay safe and keep your distance from others" ... Fine, I thought (but was too spineless to question) you've got someone sat right next to you who's probably no relation...
		
Click to expand...

Yes, well, it is good advice - essential advice- but there are front line workers to whom that luxury cannot be given. Doctors, nurses, police, firemen ,paramedics etc.
We can think ourselves lucky, as most of us on here do, I'm sure.


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## DRW (Mar 27, 2020)

hovis said:



			can only read if your a subscriber
		
Click to expand...

I;m not a subscriber but can see the first top story link as follows, click it and then read it, direct link doesn't work :-

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...2i30j0i333j0i13.fVXdFAuYF74#spf=1585321478651

Pick up a Pinch of salt first, if you have any in the cupboard


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## Slime (Mar 27, 2020)

It turns out that Trump is all clear!


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## larmen (Mar 27, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			According to one expert, the herd immunity may already be here;

https://www.ft.com/content/5ff6469a-6dd8-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

Food for thought?
		
Click to expand...

As mentioned in the math threat, why is the death race so high suddenly if herd immunity is the 'target' and has already been reached?
On the other side, I also don't understand why such a aggressive virus only jumps to 2.5 people if unchecked, so there could be some immunity there.
And i wish it is through and I am already immune. Just can't believe it.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, well, it is good advice - essential advice- but there are front line workers to whom that luxury cannot be given. Doctors, nurses, police, firemen ,paramedics etc.
We can think ourselves lucky, as most of us on here do, I'm sure.
		
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Absolutely... The officers were not, in any way, confrontational... They were parked up, out of the way, probably taking five... That I was wearing a Che Guevara scarf pulled up bandit style had, they said, mildly amused them and prompted them to ask what I was at... Tough times I told them and wished them well for the coming weeks...


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, well, it is good advice - essential advice- but there are front line workers to whom that luxury cannot be given. Doctors, nurses, police, firemen ,paramedics etc.
We can think ourselves lucky, as most of us on here do, I'm sure.
		
Click to expand...

Sat in a squad car, one front one back, simple. Agree there are times they will doing things when they are going to be close together but when they can, surly they are better off keeping some distance.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 27, 2020)

Wife went out for a bit of exercise a couple of hours ago....she paased a local chemist which had people queuing as per taped markings on the pavement outside. The Police were in attendance manhandling (none to gently according to the wife) a bloke into a Police car. Apparently he was protesting to the Police that he was an essential NHS worker and deserved to be able to jump the queue ahead of (I quote my wifes very words)…"all the lazy arseholes who'd spent their day sat indoors".

I'm going to have to start taking some exercise during the day...my wife is getting to see some strange things when she goes out.


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## IanM (Mar 27, 2020)

Tomorrow morning will be the _*"first actual game of golf I've missed"*_ due to the lock down.   I will be painting the spare room under orders from my lovely wife who (correctly) wants to set up a 2nd room in the house as an office, so we both can work from home.   

In the scheme of things....it doesnt really matter


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2020)

hovis said:



			can only read if your a subscriber
		
Click to expand...

I'm not, I picked it up via a Google search...


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Sat in a squad car, one front one back, simple. Agree there are times they will doing things when they are going to be close together but when they can, surly they are better off keeping some distance.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, dependant on the vehicle involved and the systems that need to be operated, that may not be an option.  And one front and one back will still not meet the separation guidelines.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2020)

larmen said:



			As mentioned in the math threat, why is the death race so high suddenly if herd immunity is the 'target' and has already been reached?
On the other side, I also don't understand why such a aggressive virus only jumps to 2.5 people if unchecked, so there could be some immunity there.
And i wish it is through and I am already immune. Just can't believe it.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know so maybe this has it wrong.  But then again, it cites the fact that the ICL modelling currently being used has apparently been wildly inaccurate in a few previous similar circumstances so maybe this one will prove to be right.   If we have reached herd immunity level, is the death rate actually that high; are they using all the cases, the actual number of which we don't know, or the confirmed cases which will will be significantly lower thus raising the death rate?

The joy of experts, eh.


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## larmen (Mar 27, 2020)

My uni professor modelled the German numbers on linked in saying they top out at 800k infections in June.

I know he is hot on modelling but I still don’t think he modelled it right as a closed system because at some point borders will open again and then you might get a new influx.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 27, 2020)

Picture a few minutes from Flightradar, now this is quiet compared to a “normal” friday, but I’m still shocked at the amount of passenger planes still going around the world.
We are worrying about people walking near each other whilst still allowing people to travel to and from other Countries!
I understand some flights will be freight, but the majority are passenger flights and they are coming and going from around the world.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2020)

Gove doing the briefing.  Waste of time as he seemed incapable of answering the questions asked and there doesn't seem to be any opportunity for follow-up. Bring back Rishi!

How's about - Hi Michael - what happened to the Health Secretary telling us on QT that we were part of the EU initiative to procure ventilators.  But we aren't.  Somehow.  When we are desperate for them. Now.


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## IainP (Mar 27, 2020)

I guess some of the figures could be challenged but this sounds bad - "super-spreader"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-52061915


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## Mudball (Mar 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gove doing the briefing.  Waste of time as he seemed incapable of answering the questions asked and there doesn't seem to be any opportunity for follow-up. Bring back Rishi!

How's about - Hi Michael - what happened to the Health Secretary telling us on QT that we were part of the EU initiative to procure ventilators.  But we aren't.  Somehow.  When we are desperate for them. Now.
		
Click to expand...

Calling Gove a knob is insulting a knob.. absolutely dire. Spoke to a script. Did not answer anything and passed onto the ‘experts’ that he said we have too many off. I hate to admit that at one point I wanted him to win over BoJo (before he stuck his knife and lost my vote) .. BoJo surrounds himself with clowns. BTW where is DomCom?

The one shinning light is Sunak.. so far he has been hitting it out of the park. Long may it continue


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 27, 2020)

Our first member of staff being hospitalised.


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## Hobbit (Mar 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gove doing the briefing.  Waste of time as he seemed incapable of answering the questions asked and there doesn't seem to be any opportunity for follow-up. Bring back Rishi!

How's about - Hi Michael - what happened to the Health Secretary telling us on QT that we were part of the EU initiative to procure ventilators.  But we aren't.  Somehow.  When we are desperate for them. Now.
		
Click to expand...

What went wrong with the vent initiative, who knows? But I do hope when it all comes out someone gets a gentle roasting at gas mark 7. That's for the future though.

But on a practical level, the initiative was about pricing not availability!! The German company I used to work for have an order book 10 miles thick. The orders are being dealt with like a taxi rank, but with a little more intelligence. Its part first come, first served and its can we ship 30 to xx and 30 to yy and 30 to zz. It isn't about fulfilling one order before starting the next one.

So, bear in mind. All the UK has missed out on is preferred pricing, not timing of delivery.


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## chrisd (Mar 27, 2020)

I've had it !

Being cooped up with the other half for a week now is extremely stressful and I have done my best to be cheerful and happy 

                                                                          But

She's only gone and eaten one of my Magnum ice lollies  😤😤😤😤😤😤😤


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## drdel (Mar 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I've had it !

Being cooped up with the other half for a week now is extremely stressful and I have done my best to be cheerful and happy

                                                                          But

She's only gone and eaten one of my Magnum ice lollies  😤😤😤😤😤😤😤
		
Click to expand...

Unbelievable coincidence -- my other half did exactly the same at 5:15pm this afternoon - last Raspberry Magnum; now all gone - *essential* trip out tomorrow. Hope they're not limited to 2 packs.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What went wrong with the vent initiative, who knows? But I do hope when it all comes out someone gets a gentle roasting at gas mark 7. That's for the future though.

But on a practical level, the initiative was about pricing not availability!! The German company I used to work for have an order book 10 miles thick. The orders are being dealt with like a taxi rank, but with a little more intelligence. Its part first come, first served and its can we ship 30 to xx and 30 to yy and 30 to zz. It isn't about fulfilling one order before starting the next one.

So, bear in mind. *All the UK has missed out on is preferred pricing, not timing of delivery*.
		
Click to expand...

This weeks £350m will cover that 🤭😉


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## chrisd (Mar 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Unbelievable coincidence -- my other half did exactly the same at 5:15pm this afternoon - last Raspberry Magnum; now all gone - *essential* trip out tomorrow. Hope they're not limited to 2 packs. 

Click to expand...

I only have standard vanilla ones - I dont eat her flippin porridge 😉


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## Twire (Mar 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I only have standard vanilla ones - I dont eat her flippin porridge 😉
		
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Is that a euphemism?  🤔😂


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## chrisd (Mar 27, 2020)

Twire said:



			Is that a euphemism?  🤔😂
		
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I probably would be better ignoring that question  😣😣


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 27, 2020)




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## DRW (Mar 27, 2020)

Bit depressing research on SARS antibody and how long it last, concludes around 2 years, once beyond 3 years its not great at all:-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851497/




			Among 176 patients who had had severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), SARS-specific antibodies were maintained for an average of 2 years, and significant reduction of immunoglobulin G–positive percentage and titers occurred in the third year. Thus, SARS patients might be susceptible to reinfection >3 years after initial exposure.
		
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Very worrying, vaccine required please!


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## Slime (Mar 27, 2020)

Self isolation has got me thinking and I've come to a decision.
I'm giving up drinking for a month.

Sorry, bad punctuation.

I'm giving up. Drinking for a month.


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## chellie (Mar 27, 2020)

Bloody morons https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-52068797


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## Jacko_G (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, I got challenged, by a member of the constabulary, whilst out earlier for my daily allowance... After a brief explanation he advised "stay safe and keep your distance from others" ... Fine, I thought (but was too spineless to question) you've got someone sat right next to you who's probably no relation...
		
Click to expand...

So that police officer was putting his health and his family's health at risk upholding the law and doing the job he signed up to do. He was assigned a car and a neighbour at work, again being put in danger and all you can think is to criticise??

Sums up the attitude of the British public.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Sat in a squad car, one front one back, simple. Agree there are times they will doing things when they are going to be close together but when they can, surly they are better off keeping some distance.
		
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A difference of about 30cm between front and back seats. Some real idiots on this forum. Still comfortably within the 2m which they can't avoid. These officers you are happily criticising while sat at home don't have that choice of staying at home.

Give them a break and a bit of respect.


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## robinthehood (Mar 27, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			So that police officer was putting his health and his family's health at risk upholding the law and doing the job he signed up to do. He was assigned a car and a neighbour at work, again being put in danger and all you can think is to criticise??

Sums up the attitude of the British public.
		
Click to expand...

Do you want a ladder 😉


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## pokerjoke (Mar 27, 2020)

Shocking news from Italy and Spain tonight so many more dead.
Nearly a 1000 in Italy.
Such sad times for families not being able to be with loved ones.
Heart breaking


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## MegaSteve (Mar 27, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			A difference of about 30cm between front and back seats. Some real idiots on this forum. Still comfortably within the 2m which they can't avoid. These officers you are happily criticising while sat at home don't have that choice of staying at home.

Give them a break and a bit of respect.
		
Click to expand...

As it happens the officers were in a mini bus... Plenty of room to achieve social distancing with one up front and one in the far rear seats...

And, as I noted in my follow up post... The conversation was all cool... Just that I found it mildly amusing I was being advised to be distance aware whilst he clearly wasn't practicing his own advice...


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2020)

I've got to stop watching the news. Jesus Christ how my foot didn'ty go through the screen.  People going to beauty spots and taking BBq's. Homeless, moaning there's no one to sponge off. Some bluddy woman saying these people can't feed their bluddy dogs or summat (I was ranting at the time might have missed her point).  People in charge standing together discussing what to do, huddled up like they were in a scrum, morons!!!!!! THen complaining about the general public not doing what they have been told to do  AND NEITHER ARE THEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!. MORONS!!!!!! The UK is full of MORONS!!!!!!!! 

On a better note . I've sanded down out outdoor table ready for treatment. Two days work!!!!! Next job is the shed. Then indoor painting. Then karaoke database editing. (This will take 2 months).  Tomorrow tea is Tuscan Chicken. 

Oh and one more thing. Mum is 80. Wife rang her today to check up to see if she is ok. Yup. all good. She's  popped round to her brothers and his wife and is slugging down wine, with the promise of whiskey to follow. I give up!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As it happens the officers were in a meat wagon... Plenty of room to achieve social distancing with one up front and one in the far rear seats...

And, as I noted in my follow up post... The conversation was all cool... Just that I found it mildly amusing I was being advised to be distance aware whilst he clearly wasn't practicing his own advice...
		
Click to expand...

All breathing the same air tho

We are social distancing but the air is recycled via the air con. One of us gets it and we will be infected .


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## Crazyface (Mar 27, 2020)

PPS.

Just watched a live "gig" of Kezia Gill. 90 mins of live music. Smashing! She's promised to do it again in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know!


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## Slime (Mar 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			All breathing the same air tho

*We are social distancing but the air is recycled via the air con. One of us gets it and we will be infected .*

Click to expand...

I've been told that the virus is not airborne, therefore not infectious via air con.
I also believe that air con systems have filters.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 28, 2020)

Slime said:



			I've been told that the virus is not airborne, therefore not infectious via air con.
I also believe that air con systems have filters.
		
Click to expand...

And OFF buttons!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			And OFF buttons!
		
Click to expand...

If we turn ours off we die. Sealed room


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## Smiffy (Mar 28, 2020)

I've hibernated............


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## Fish (Mar 28, 2020)

Smiffy said:



			I've hibernated............
View attachment 29522

Click to expand...

Hands down the pants syndrome 😜


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## Fish (Mar 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			All breathing the same air tho

We are social distancing but the air is recycled via the air con. One of us gets it and we will be infected .
		
Click to expand...

So why are coaches still running, planes even, and with construction sites small & large still in operation, crew cabs and minibuses flying down the motorways every morning packed with 5-8 workers in them. 

In fact on your premise there should be a directive of only 1 person to travel in a vehicle at any one time!

aircon would only do so much, droplets from speaking, coughing etc would all spread in those circumstances. 

People are complaining about the levels of restrictions now, they’re lucky it’s not fully locked down, which will come at some point, but proportionally imo.


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## Smiffy (Mar 28, 2020)

Fish said:



			Hands down the pants syndrome 😜
		
Click to expand...

I am keeping my boilies warm.....


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 28, 2020)

Just been shown this, a really simple and good explanation


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## hovis (Mar 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Sat in a squad car, one front one back, simple. Agree there are times they will doing things when they are going to be close together but when they can, surly they are better off keeping some distance.
		
Click to expand...

sure they can keep distance at times but that horse has already bolted. they are forced by the nature of their job to be very close to each other.  we share a station with the police and neither of us really practise any form of distancing between our own crews but most definitely do with other crews and services.   it's sounds easy in theory for its just not practical


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2020)

Notification from our town hall; try not to go out for the next 24 hours, and definitely don't let dogs/cats out. A strong disinfectant is going to be sprayed on the roads and pavements. That's at least 4 times in the last 13 days, although it sounds like they're going to use the nuclear disinfectant this time.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

I was quite pleased with the safety measures for my shopping trip yesterday, mask, snood, rubber gloves.
After returning my shopping trolley I carefully removed my gloves even put them in a carrier bag to bin later.
Later it dawned on me I'd been using my mobile while pushing the trolley around wearing the rubber gloves, then I spent half the night on the phone and lap top I'm feeling a bit stupid and worried now. 
I don't think the trollies are cleaned that often.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I was quite pleased with the safety measures for my shopping trip yesterday, mask, snood, rubber gloves.
After returning my shopping trolley I carefully removed my gloves even put them in a carrier bag to bin later.
Later it dawned on me I'd been using my mobile while pushing the trolley around wearing the rubber gloves, then I spent half the night on the phone and lap top I'm feeling a bit stupid and worried now.
I don't think the trollies are cleaned that often.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst everyone needs to take as many precautions as possible, there is a danger you can go all Howard Hughes and worry about literally everything you do when you leave the house.  If that is the case then the only thing to do is just self isolate for the next few months.  But I'd suggest most people just need to be sensible and not get paranoid.


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2020)

*Party!!*

Hoping for good weather this afternoon. Just received notification in our local community FB group. 2pm today for about 45 mins, terrace party! A bit different as we'll all be on our own terraces. One of our community is a professional singer/entertainer, and will have her amp going full blast whilst she runs through her numbers.


----------



## Imurg (Mar 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*Party!!*

Hoping for good weather this afternoon. Just received notification in our local community FB group. 2pm today for about 45 mins, terrace party! A bit different as we'll all be on our own terraces. One of our community is a professional singer/entertainer, and will have her amp going full blast whilst she runs through her numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent. 
Sing one for me......or maybe not..


----------



## Imurg (Mar 28, 2020)

Starting to, maybe, feel the effects of this virus.
Had a night of chills and sweats - no fever though - a bit of a dull head and tickly throat plus some stomach pains.
Nothing alarming and now I'm up and about they've disappeared. 
Mrs Imurg has similar and has spoken to doctors at work and they seem to think we may have it.
In isolation for another 10 days anyway so, with a bit of luck, it'll be gone by the time lockdown finishes.


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## Fromtherough (Mar 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I was quite pleased with the safety measures for my shopping trip yesterday, mask, snood, rubber gloves.
After returning my shopping trolley I carefully removed my gloves even put them in a carrier bag to bin later.
Later it dawned on me I'd been using my mobile while pushing the trolley around wearing the rubber gloves, then I spent half the night on the phone and lap top I'm feeling a bit stupid and worried now. 
I don't think the trollies are cleaned that often.
		
Click to expand...

At Tesco’s yesterday they were providing wipes and antibacterial spray to clean your trolley down. Fair enough. Where do you draw the line though? Do you individually wipe each product you’ve bought when you get home? They will have come in contact with a fair few people before you put into your trolley. Washing your hands often is still the most sensible solution, or you’re going to have to live in a bubble for the next 3 months or so.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			If we turn ours off we die. Sealed room
		
Click to expand...

Thought we were talking about the police in their cars.
I hate air con and never use it.
But if going to die then I might leave it on.


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## Slime (Mar 28, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			At Tesco’s yesterday they were providing wipes and antibacterial spray to clean your trolley down. Fair enough. Where do you draw the line though? Do you individually wipe each product you’ve bought when you get home? They will have come in contact with a fair few people before you put into your trolley. *Washing your hands often is still the most sensible solution*, or you’re going to have to live in a bubble for the next 3 months or so.
		
Click to expand...

We should all be washing our hands very frequently.
How hard can it be?




Hey, just trying to lighten the mood.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 28, 2020)

Slime said:



			We should all be washing our hands very frequently.
How hard can it be?

View attachment 29524


Hey, just trying to lighten the mood. 

Click to expand...

I suspect the vast majority of us are now 'suffering' with washerwomans hands...


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## Jacko_G (Mar 28, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			At Tesco’s yesterday they were providing wipes and antibacterial spray to clean your trolley down. Fair enough. Where do you draw the line though? Do you individually wipe each product you’ve bought when you get home? They will have come in contact with a fair few people before you put into your trolley. Washing your hands often is still the most sensible solution, or you’re going to have to live in a bubble for the next 3 months or so.
		
Click to expand...

I was paranoid enough to wipe everything down we bought yesterday and disposed of all packaging that we could.

Probably way OTT however it somehow makes me feel better having two children in the house knowing I've done everything I could to minimise the risks.


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## Fromtherough (Mar 28, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I was paranoid enough to wipe everything down we bought yesterday and disposed of all packaging that we could.

Probably way OTT however it somehow makes me feel better having two children in the house knowing I've done everything I could to minimise the risks.
		
Click to expand...

The thought had crossed my mind, especially as ‘they’ still don’t know how long the virus can live on surfaces etc. Washing your hands after touching will have same net effect though. Plus, Tesco’s had no anti-bacterial wipes, so the decision was easier for me.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*Party!!*

Hoping for good weather this afternoon. Just received notification in our local community FB group. 2pm today for about 45 mins, terrace party! A bit different as we'll all be on our own terraces. One of our community is a professional singer/entertainer, and will have her amp going full blast whilst she runs through her numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Try and post the video and cheer us up


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 28, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I was paranoid enough to wipe everything down we bought yesterday and disposed of all packaging that we could.

Probably way OTT however it somehow makes me feel better having two children in the house knowing I've done everything I could to minimise the risks.
		
Click to expand...

Most packing is done by robots now.
So the only person who has touched it is another shopper or the shelf stacker.
We have been decanting everything into Tupperware containers where possible, and disposing of packing makes perfect sense to me.
Can’t be to careful now.
Plus gives me something to do ,I am getting very bored already.
Shuffling Tupperware containers around could be another hobby , don’t think it will catch on though.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

Fromtherough said:



			The thought had crossed my mind, especially as ‘they’ still don’t know how long the virus can live on surfaces etc. Washing your hands after touching will have same net effect though. Plus, Tesco’s had no anti-bacterial wipes, so the decision was easier for me.
		
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I leave the shopping bag at the door, my wife  then cleans all the packaging .


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## Fish (Mar 28, 2020)

First initial cut to the back lawn, that was hard work as it was sooo loooong & folded, will need another cut in a day or 2 to get nice & equal.

Emptied the remaining litres from my Adblue drum, now safely stored.

Smashed old aquarium up into the blue recycle bin.

I’ve worked my way halfway into the garage and found stuff I never knew I had or have seen for years😳

I’ll hit the garage again in a few days as I think I need to spread these jobs out, I’ve never worked so hard 😜😏


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2020)

Boys in blue spent a lot of yesterday sat at junction 27 on m5 turning caravans around and sending them back up north.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Mar 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Boys in blue spent a lot of yesterday sat at junction 27 on m5 turning caravans around and sending them back up north.
		
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Jesus. People are just extremely thick 

Essential travel? Nah mate it’s just a long bank holiday 🙄


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Mar 28, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I was paranoid enough to wipe everything down we bought yesterday and disposed of all packaging that we could.

Probably way OTT however it somehow makes me feel better having two children in the house knowing I've done everything I could to minimise the risks.
		
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Better to be accused of being paranoid and being safe, than being too bravado about it. I detect a danger of getting too relaxed with this thing. It seems a natural human trait to " to get too fussy,etc", but this virus doesn't respond to anything. It just does it's thing, and if conditions are right ,it will infect.
My efforts might turn out to be in vain, but I know I've tried to be logical about it.
Blasé is not a virtue at the moment


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2020)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Jesus. People are just extremely thick

Essential travel? Nah mate it’s just a long bank holiday 🙄
		
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I'm  lucky and can walk down to the estuary from my house and there are 3 mobile homes parked up on the front.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Better to be accused of being paranoid and being safe, than being too bravado about it. I detect a danger of getting too relaxed with this thing. It seems a natural human trait to " to get too fussy,etc", but this virus doesn't respond to anything. It just does it's thing, and if conditions are right ,it will infect.
My efforts might turn out to be in vain, but I know I've tried to be logical about it.
Blasé is not a virtue at the moment
		
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Best advice I've read is to act like you and your family already have it.  So like most people do, you do what you can to stay at home so you are not passing it on to anyone.  How much people want to disinfect everything that comes into their house in an attempt to not catch it is up to them.  But I'd argue not doing so is not really blase.


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## hovis (Mar 28, 2020)

police in Tamworth had to bust the doors open in two pubs yesterday.  apparently rammed full with drinkers.  shoot on site i say


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## Fish (Mar 28, 2020)

hovis said:



			police in Tamworth had to bust the doors open in two pubs yesterday.  apparently rammed full with drinkers.  shoot on site i say
		
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Take his/her licence away, see how clever they think they were then.


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## IainP (Mar 28, 2020)

Just a heads up, if you receive an email from the Department for Health saying not to eat tinned pork because it contains Covid-19 ignore it. It’s spam.
😁🙂
Sorry


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## hovis (Mar 28, 2020)

IainP said:



			Just a heads up, if you receive an email from the Department for Health saying not to eat tinned pork because it contains Covid-19 ignore it. It’s spam.
😁🙂
Sorry
		
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that's soooooooooooo bad it's almost funny.   gonna use it at work tonight though 😜


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## bobmac (Mar 28, 2020)

IainP said:



			Just a heads up, if you receive an email from the Department for Health saying not to eat tinned pork because it contains Covid-19 ignore it. It’s spam.
😁🙂
Sorry
		
Click to expand...


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I was paranoid enough to wipe everything down we bought yesterday and disposed of all packaging that we could.

Probably way OTT however it somehow makes me feel better having two children in the house knowing I've done everything I could to minimise the risks.
		
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OTT; maybe.  Understandable; perfectly.

Stay safe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2020)

Today’s alternative to golf - I cleaned the high parts and roof of our conservatory.  Now if Mrs Hogie has suggested I did that instead of golf then 😡 however today 😇


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Today’s alternative to golf - I cleaned the high parts hand roof of our conservatory.  Now if Mrs Hogie has suggested I did that instead of golf then 😡 however today 😇
		
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Mine was cleaning the lounge window frames. May not sound a lot but one full wall has 20 panes of glass. They get a bit mucky through the winter with condensation, now look like sparkling new.


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## Captainron (Mar 28, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Mine was cleaning the lounge window frames. May not sound a lot but one full wall has 20 panes of glass. They get a bit mucky through the winter with condensation, now look like sparkling new.
		
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Vinegar?


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## Jacko_G (Mar 28, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Mine was cleaning the lounge window frames. May not sound a lot but one full wall has 20 panes of glass. They get a bit mucky through the winter with condensation, now look like sparkling new.
		
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20 panes of glass! Do you live in a greenhouse?


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 28, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Vinegar?
		
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Soap and water / for the wood frames


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 28, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			20 panes of glass! Do you live in a greenhouse?
		
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wish I did sometimes, would be warmer..... the lounge has just the one set of 20 windows in the north facing wall, no direct sunlight, ever. Nice and cool in summer but flipping cold in winter.


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## Old Skier (Mar 28, 2020)

Yesterday, cut my toe nails, today removed fluff from belly button - busy busy busy.


----------



## Slime (Mar 28, 2020)

On the back of Boris Johnson and Matt Hancock testing positive for Covid-19, Diane Abbott says she is having a corona virus test later on today and that she has been up all night revising for it!


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## rosecott (Mar 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yesterday, cut my toe nails, today removed fluff from belly button - busy busy busy.
		
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Snap. Cut my fingernails today and combined it with my one trip a day allowance - I cut them standing outside the back door. Tomorrow I plan to have a long soak in the bath then do my toenails - indoors.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yesterday, cut my toe nails, today removed fluff from belly button - busy busy busy.
		
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I’m calling bs you can’t reach your feet


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## bobmac (Mar 28, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I’m calling bs you can’t reach your feet 

Click to expand...

There's no shame in that, I can barely reach my belly button


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			There's no shame in that, I can barely reach my belly button 

Click to expand...

I can't see my dingaling anymore


----------



## clubchamp98 (Mar 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I can't see my dingaling anymore 

Click to expand...

Someone stolen your mirror.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Someone stolen your mirror.
		
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No reflection lol


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			No reflection lol
		
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If you can’t see yourself in the mirror put your glasses on Count.!


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)




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## Fish (Mar 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I can't see my dingaling anymore 

Click to expand...

Nothing grows in the shade 😜


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## williamalex1 (Mar 28, 2020)

Fish said:



			Nothing grows in the shade 😜
		
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Mushrooms


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## Hobbit (Mar 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*Party!!*

Hoping for good weather this afternoon. Just received notification in our local community FB group. 2pm today for about 45 mins, terrace party! A bit different as we'll all be on our own terraces. One of our community is a professional singer/entertainer, and will have her amp going full blast whilst she runs through her numbers.
		
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Fabulous afternoon. Everyone on their own terrace, nearest was 10yds away. Music belting out for a couple of hours., with a few beers. Warm enough, after some poor weather, for t-shirt and jeans. Another one scheduled for next Saturday.

HID definitely needed it. She's very much a free spirit and doesn't take confinement kindly.


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## User62651 (Mar 28, 2020)

Dry and windy so 3 washes done and hung as I hate using the dryer. Dog for a walk and then removed some large old tired shrub stumps with a mattock I've been meaning to do for years, half rotten so came out ok. Minor fence repairs and also managed a little bit of exercise via walking lunges, step ups and inclined push ups. Started watching Swedish crime series 'Before we die' on all4 as I read it is good but nodded off. Quite a nice day thus far really. Feel like I've done something at least.🧐


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## Mudball (Mar 28, 2020)

Indian govt has suspended all loan repayment for a couple of months..  no questions asked. Our banks are providing holidays but the interest is still being calculated - why? Did we not bail them out last time?


----------



## fundy (Mar 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Starting to, maybe, feel the effects of this virus.
Had a night of chills and sweats - no fever though - a bit of a dull head and tickly throat plus some stomach pains.
Nothing alarming and now I'm up and about they've disappeared. 
Mrs Imurg has similar and has spoken to doctors at work and they seem to think we may have it.
In isolation for another 10 days anyway so, with a bit of luck, it'll be gone by the time lockdown finishes.
		
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take care and stay safe!


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## Piece (Mar 28, 2020)

Put a new felt roof on the shed. Well happy how it looks.

Until it rains


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## bobmac (Mar 28, 2020)

Lots of smartie points being earned


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2020)

Wrong thread


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## Foxholer (Mar 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Mushrooms 

Click to expand...

Magic!


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## Slime (Mar 28, 2020)

Piece said:



			Put a new felt roof on the shed. Well happy how it looks.

Until it rains 

Click to expand...

I'm due to do mine on Tuesday/Wednesday.
I'm also getting two sheets of OSB for the roof, just not sure whether to nail them on top of existing or replace completely.
Any thoughts?

Yup, wrong thread!
Sorry guys.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 28, 2020)

When all of this is done and dusted it would be a fitting move to award our wonderful NHS staff a collective George Medal.
[As the people of Malta in WW2]


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 28, 2020)

Slime said:



			I'm due to do mine on Tuesday/Wednesday.
I'm also getting two sheets of OSB for the roof, just not sure whether to nail them on top of existing or replace completely.
Any thoughts?

Yup, wrong thread!
Sorry guys.
		
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Make sure you buy the right length roofing tacks, and measure twice before cutting and allowing for the overlaps.


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## upsidedown (Mar 28, 2020)

Got mine to do If you've all left enough felt   shed is 20x10 😲


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 29, 2020)

Mrs wedge was reading a Japanese medical report about how they believe that    the old BCG immunisation may be effective in reducing the severity of the coronavirus. It won’t stop it, but can reduce the severity of the infection. I searched around and found these in English - apologies if I missed it already posted in the last few days.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/24/coronavirus-vaccine-health-care-workers-bcg/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...-vaccine-used-prevent-spread-coronavirus.html

 both saying almost identical, but a couple of things I didn’t see in the report but are in the Japanese one.

1. apparently the Asian BCG is different to the UK/ European one, and believed to be more effective than the UK one.

2. Apparently it is/was not compulsory to have BCG in Italy and Spain. Therefore fewer people have had the jab, meaning more people get the severe effects.


a couple of points in the first link that stand out

1.  some studies suggest that this protective effect lasts only until an inactivated vaccine (such as an influenza vaccine) is later given. If I’ve read that correctly, the flu jab (given to a lot of older people) negates the effect.

2. a lot of the big business research going on are apparently ignoring this in an effort to find a direct target vaccine

3. There are a number of trials starting immediately, including the UK to look into it.


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## robinthehood (Mar 29, 2020)

They stopped giving the bcg at schools some time ago. I never had it as the pre test showed I was already immune.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 29, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			They stopped giving the bcg at schools some time ago. I never had it as the pre test showed I was already immune.
		
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Same here although later transpired my Dad may have been exposed to TB whilst serving for the army in India.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 29, 2020)

If you get the chance to listen to something that's not scaremongering and information from the frontline check out the Andrew Marr interview this morning with Dr Katherine Henderson, President of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine. Every line of emotive, negative and critical questioning (typical BBC) was met with calm reassurance and quashed all his hopes of some drama. 

So also posted in Things That Gladden the Heart!


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## Mudball (Mar 29, 2020)

One of the kids from school did this outside his house.. I think terrific idea..


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## MegaSteve (Mar 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			If you get the chance to listen to something that's not scaremongering and information from the frontline check out the Andrew Marr interview this morning with Dr Katherine Henderson, President of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine. Every line of emotive, negative and critical questioning (typical BBC) was met with calm reassurance and quashed all his hopes of some drama. 

So also posted in Things That Gladden the Heart!
		
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Perhaps Marrs style of questioning was intended to provide the platform/opportunity for the good Doctor to respond in her level headed manner... That she might not of had with a less "emotive, negative, critical" approach...


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Perhaps Marrs style of questioning was intended to provide the platform/opportunity for the good Doctor to respond in her level headed manner... That she might not of had with a less "emotive, negative, critical" approach...
		
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Or maybe it wasn't


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## DanFST (Mar 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			He, Hancock, said it when he went into bat, for the party donors, to make excuse for the non-essential construction workers to be still on the tube...
		
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So obviously you'll be able to link us a quote.....


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## MegaSteve (Mar 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Or maybe it wasn't
		
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Good journalists ask the appropriate questions to elicit the responses they are seeking...


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## harpo_72 (Mar 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			If you get the chance to listen to something that's not scaremongering and information from the frontline check out the Andrew Marr interview this morning with Dr Katherine Henderson, President of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine. Every line of emotive, negative and critical questioning (typical BBC) was met with calm reassurance and quashed all his hopes of some drama.

So also posted in Things That Gladden the Heart!
		
Click to expand...

This sounds like what we need an expert offering up a response that is pragmatic. 
I myself am getting a little tired of these stats. For me stats can easily be manipulated to sell a story. In this case death rate is grossly disproportionate to infected, I would caveat the data with those hospitalised and then separate out the ones with underlying conditions. They will then start to see trends which would then help the strategy of containing it.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 29, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			This sounds like what we need an expert offering up a response that is pragmatic.
I myself am getting a little tired of these stats. For me stats can easily be manipulated to sell a story. In this case death rate is grossly disproportionate to infected, I would caveat the data with those hospitalised and then separate out the ones with underlying conditions. They will then start to see trends which would then help the strategy of containing it.
		
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Agreed. She was asked about things like the rumours of PPE being re-used and said "highly unlikely" and ditto to a few other rumoured issues on the frontline. Stories get manipulated and used to score political points and she just told it as she saw it and had experienced it in reality.


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## Lump (Mar 29, 2020)

Worked at Leeds Train station last night. Leeds was an absolute ghost town. Didn’t see 1 person walking around while driving to site. Only passed police cars and taxi’s. Feels very much like the opening scenes of 28 days later.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 29, 2020)

Lump said:



			Worked at Leeds Train station last night. Leeds was an absolute ghost town. Didn’t see 1 person walking around while driving to site. Only passed police cars and taxi’s. Feels very much like the opening scenes of 28 days later.
		
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I think the "rage virus" hits us before that stage!

😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2020)

Back from a quiet but chilly walk with Mrs Hogie through park, fields and town.  Everyone behaving responsibly 👍


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## Old Skier (Mar 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Back from a quiet but chilly walk with Mrs Hogie through park, fields and town.  Everyone behaving responsibly 👍
		
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Not in Derby

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/england/derbyshire


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2020)

Lump said:



			Worked at Leeds Train station last night. Leeds was an absolute ghost town. Didn’t see 1 person walking around while driving to site. Only passed police cars and taxi’s. Feels very much like the opening scenes of 28 days later.
		
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My son had to drive from Sheffield to Leeds this morning for an emergency dental appointment.  He said was weird driving through Sheffield - hardly a sole about - up the M1 - empty - and Leeds deserted.   Dentist spoke with him out of an outside window and wore full face mask (he described at securicor-like) - not surprising no dental work being done at the moment so another dose of anti-Bs


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## harpo_72 (Mar 29, 2020)

Did not affect my roast cooking today .. the potatoes were perfection.
It’s very windy outside as well .. which seems to be normal for this part of the country.
Generally no change apart from me changing my swing start which I now refer to as “drop and smash” .. the club drops and as it drops you speed it up as hard as you can .. of cause it could hit a ball absolutely anywhere but the moss in the lawn flew straight and the foam balls stayed straight. The plastic ribbed ball shot in a lovely straight line and over next doors fence ..


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## USER1999 (Mar 29, 2020)

they are talking may be 6 months. 6 months? 6 months!


----------



## IainP (Mar 29, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			they are talking may be 6 months. 6 months? 6 months!
		
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If you're surprised, I'm surprised you're surprised 😉


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## AmandaJR (Mar 29, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			they are talking may be 6 months. 6 months? 6 months!
		
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When I heard the "3-6 months, maybe longer" I felt my heart drop. I'm now expecting 3 months on lockdown and then a gradual lifting of restrictions to assess the impact and then lift some more. I figure any less will be a bonus.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 29, 2020)

Yet apparently Sweden is not on any sort of lockdown;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52076293


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## Jacko_G (Mar 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			When I heard the "3-6 months, maybe longer" I felt my heart drop. I'm now expecting 3 months on lockdown and then a gradual lifting of restrictions to assess the impact and then lift some more. I figure any less will be a bonus.
		
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Certainly in here Dr Catherine Calderwood was saying she expects at least another 13 weeks of lockdown conditions in Scotland. 

That takes us into June.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 29, 2020)

It'll be a while yet  - but sooner or later government is going to have to consider the economy,  which wont survive a long lockdown. And a shredded economy could easily cause greater ealth & social issues than coronavirus itself.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			they are talking may be 6 months. 6 months? 6 months!
		
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People right now are throwing numbers out all over. We pick up on this quote, others will say far less but that doesn't get a headline. We simply don't know though, it depends on how things pan out, how it spreads, the rate it spreads. 

Economically I can't see 6 months at this level being possible so the govt will listen to the scientists and then have to make some decisions as the consequences of a total economic collapse are pretty major as well.


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## Imurg (Mar 29, 2020)

If they're going to be carrying on social distancing for up to 6 months or more it's going to make my job a tad tricky.....


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## Old Skier (Mar 29, 2020)

And the word was COULD. But better bored than dead


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Yet apparently Sweden is not on any sort of lockdown;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52076293

Click to expand...

Is that a good or bad thing?  Should we be following their lead or pitying them for their naivety ?  Are we jealous or thankful we are not living in Sweden?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 29, 2020)

I’m furloughed from Wednesday, in work tomorrow, taking a days enforced holiday on Tuesday.

The upside is I’ll be able to do more moderating along side the long diy list I have compiled

What? ...........😂


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is that a good or bad thing?  Should we be following their lead or pitying them for their naivety ?  Are we jealous or thankful we are not living in Sweden?
		
Click to expand...

I wish I knew.  Just reading Hobbit's posts Spain is absolutely Draconian yet Sweden is doing nothing; who knows which is correct?  History will tell us who was correct, but I keep thinking of the old adage that "there are lies, damn lies and statistics."  I just hope the statistics we are basing the predictions on are correct, but I have my doubts.


----------



## Beezerk (Mar 29, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			When I heard the "3-6 months, maybe longer" I felt my heart drop. I'm now expecting 3 months on lockdown and then a gradual lifting of restrictions to assess the impact and then lift some more. I figure any less will be a bonus.
		
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How the heck can the country afford all those wages for 3 months? It's madness a tell thi 😯
I'm going to be massively out of pocket by the looks of it, starting to sink in now how much it's going to cost me.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 29, 2020)

Belarus president is saying 50ml of Vodka, Saunas and a good breakfast are all you need.


----------



## harpo_72 (Mar 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is that a good or bad thing?  Should we be following their lead or pitying them for their naivety ?  Are we jealous or thankful we are not living in Sweden?
		
Click to expand...

Brutally honest, we have no idea. Did Prince Charles get C19 from the King of Monaco? There seems to be inconsistencies in the incubation figures. Which then leads to doubt about infection time.. how long are you infectious?
Who really is at risk .. not who is dead, the survivors are as interesting as the dead.. no information on those.
Frankly speaking this is looking like amateur hour .. don’t get me wrong, I do like a laugh but they can do better by a long chalk and the press needs to stand up and stop the sensationalisation and start to deal in proper facts and statistical analysis..


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## bladeplayer (Mar 29, 2020)

What i think some people are not getting is that the lock down primarily is not to stop or cure the virus,  currently no cure so no idea how long it will last .  It is to stop the speed of the spread of it so hospitals can cope . 

They expect most of us to get it just dont want us all getting it together. It possibly proves that a 1 off, bite the bullet investment years ago could have had all our medical services up to speed and maybe in a better place to manage what is happening now 

In my opinion its only that this virus hits the rich as much as the poor is the reason the money people are throwing money at it . 

I know i could b miles off . Its just an opinion ..


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## bladeplayer (Mar 29, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Belarus president is saying 50ml of Vodka, Saunas and a good breakfast are all you need.
		
Click to expand...

their soccer league still going strong


----------



## IanM (Mar 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is that a good or bad thing?  Should we be following their lead or pitying them for their naivety ?  Are we jealous or thankful we are not living in Sweden?
		
Click to expand...


No one actually knows for sure....stone cold logic suggests a bad idea


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## harpo_72 (Mar 29, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Belarus president is saying 50ml of Vodka, Saunas and a good breakfast are all you need.
		
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Red indians believe in the sweat tent .. he is right about the sauna 
Vodka dunno ..


----------



## pendodave (Mar 29, 2020)

IanM said:



			No one actually knows for sure....stone cold logic suggests a bad idea
		
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If the future prospects of your youth and working population were a measure of success, stone cold logic says you do nothing at all....


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 29, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wish I knew.  Just reading Hobbit's posts Spain is absolutely Draconian yet Sweden is doing nothing; who knows which is correct?  History will tell us who was correct, but I keep thinking of the old adage that "there are lies, damn lies and statistics."  I just hope the statistics we are basing the predictions on are correct, but I have my doubts.
		
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Something I read today saying Sweden is going down the herd immunity route... 'Locking up' its elderly and at risk and allowing (encouraging) others to go about their day...


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## Crow (Mar 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Something I read today saying Sweden is going down the herd immunity route... 'Locking up' its elderly and at risk and allowing (encouraging) others to go about their day...
		
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What's the cut-off age?


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Something I read today saying Sweden is going down the herd immunity route... 'Locking up' its elderly and at risk and allowing (encouraging) others to go about their day...
		
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Almost two weeks ago at ne of the WHO briefings the chief guy spoke about two countries going down the herd route. He didn't say which countries were doing it but it was well known at the time that it was the UK and Sweden. He said it wasn't the best option, and he also said the response had to be uniform across the globe otherwise it would compromise the other countries approach.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 29, 2020)

Crow said:



			What's the cut-off age?
		
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Not sure it quoted an age... I'll dig the paper out of recycling tomorrow and check...


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## Imurg (Mar 30, 2020)

Isolation day whatever......
That was not a good night's sleep by any standards.
2/3 hours max and not in one go.
Lying down tightens my chest more making breathing more uncomfortable- not difficult or laboured but more difficult. 
Once I'm up, sitting in my chair sipping coffee at 3.30 most things return to normal.
Breathing is fine, slightly tight chest, tickly throat and occasional cough still, slightly dull head with occasional minor dizziness, sniffles.
But oh so knackered.
Feel like I've just played 36 at Sunningdale- in the heat.......
Getting bored with this now....wanna play another game - although I did just go round St Andrews in 65 on WGT....
Life in the old dog yet


----------



## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

China has a population of 1.3bn people.
Their first case of the virus was around Jan 1st
As of yesterday, their new case figure is down to 45
3 months and it's almost gone
The first case in Britain was around a month later than China at the beginning of February.
So if we follow China, things could relax next month.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			They stopped giving the bcg at schools some time ago. I never had it as the pre test showed I was already immune.
		
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I got a detention at school because of the BCG injection.  OK I did come out of the room pretending to scream in pain saying the needle was too big, no care was taken etc.  Kids were running off everywhere.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 30, 2020)

But China had a much more vigorous lockdown.
It won’t take much to reignite it, 45 a day could be 1000 a day in 2 weeks time.

Relaxing too early is almost as bad as not locking down early enough


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## Slab (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			China has a population of 1.3bn people.
Their first case of the virus was around Jan 1st
As of yesterday, their new case figure is down to 45
3 months and it's almost gone
The first case in Britain was around a month later than China at the beginning of February.
So if we follow China, things could relax next month.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the UK requires a proper lockdown to pursue that timeline, still just playing around so far


----------



## MegaSteve (Mar 30, 2020)

Crow said:



			What's the cut-off age?
		
Click to expand...

 "Those over 70, or with pre-existing health problems, have been asked to stay at home except for a daily walk. "


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## MegaSteve (Mar 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Almost two weeks ago at ne of the WHO briefings the chief guy spoke about two countries going down the herd route. He didn't say which countries were doing it but it was well known at the time that it was the UK and Sweden. He said it wasn't the best option, and he also said the response had to be uniform across the globe otherwise it would compromise the other countries approach.
		
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Irrespective of who actually took the decision I am pleased "herd immunity" planning was set aside in the UK...


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			China has a population of 1.3bn people.
Their first case of the virus was around Jan 1st
As of yesterday, their new case figure is down to 45
3 months and it's almost gone
The first case in Britain was around a month later than China at the beginning of February.
So if we follow China, things could relax next month.
		
Click to expand...


How much do we trust China to report correct figures? My opinion is that they could have done a lot more to restrict the spread a lot earlier if they locked down flights and travel etc, but, they tried to hide it at first resulting in what we have now.


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## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

One of our elderly neigbhour has got it and is isolating.   Their daughter & son-in-law currently have the symptoms and are isolating.  They are hoping to be among the first batch of NHS testers ... lets hope all this will pass..


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## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			How much do we trust China to report correct figures? My opinion is that they could have done a lot more to restrict the spread a lot earlier if they locked down flights and travel etc, but, they tried to hide it at first resulting in what we have now.
		
Click to expand...

Almost as if they planned it that way.... It got to Italy, but not Beijing...


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## hovis (Mar 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			How much do we trust China to report correct figures? My opinion is that they could have done a lot more to restrict the spread a lot earlier if they locked down flights and travel etc, but, they tried to hide it at first resulting in what we have now.
		
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i agree.  I personally think the reported death from China are grossly under reported.   I find it hard to belive China is only on 3000.  whe're going to top that!!!!!


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			China has a population of 1.3bn people.
Their first case of the virus was around Jan 1st
As of yesterday, their new case figure is down to 45
3 months and it's almost gone
The first case in Britain was around a month later than China at the beginning of February.
So if we follow China, things could relax next month.
		
Click to expand...

I day I believe propaganda that comes out of China is the day I believe I can win the British Amateur.


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## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			But China had a much more vigorous lockdown.
		
Click to expand...

That was my point.
Here we are, a month into it and people are still going to the pub, the church, the beach, parks etc, etc and generally making unnecessary journeys.
We can have as little or as much of the virus as we want.
But as long as the morons think they are immune, we will be staying put.



Jacko_G said:



			I day I believe propaganda that comes out of China is the day I believe I can win the British Amateur.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think it's possible to silence every scientist in China?


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you think it's possible to silence every scientist in China?
		
Click to expand...

Pretty much. I have a relative who works out there and have to spoken to him about this repeatedly. If you think they can not do this then you do not understand how China operates internally, how it controls the internet, the news, its people, every aspect of life. 1984 is working just fine in China.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			That was my point.
Here we are, a month into it and people are still going to the pub, the church, the beach, parks etc, etc and generally making unnecessary journeys.
We can have as little or as much of the virus as we want.
But as long as the morons think they are immune, we will be staying put.



Do you think it's possible to silence every scientist in China?
		
Click to expand...

In a communist state - Yes I do.


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## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			In a communist state - Yes I do.
		
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Ok, we disagree but the point is we will have this threat for as long as we flaunt the rules.

P.s  
I'm not sure why we are listening to Dr. Calderwood who is a obstetrician and gynaecologist


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## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Ok, we disagree but the point is we will have this threat for as long as we flaunt the rules.

P.s 
I'm not sure why we are listening to Dr. Calderwood who is a obstetrician and gynaecologist
		
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Honest question. If people are flouting the rules now, why will making them stricter work?
We don't have enough law enforcement to police 60m people.
There's stuff on sensible news sites saying that people are not conforming because of language, cultural and religious factors. I don't think changing the rules is going to make them behave differently.


----------



## hovis (Mar 30, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Honest question. If people are flouting the rules now, why will making them stricter work?
We don't have enough law enforcement to police 60m people.
There's stuff on sensible news sites saying that people are not conforming because of language, cultural and religious factors. I don't think changing the rules is going to make them behave differently.
		
Click to expand...

is the flouting the rules? 
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...collect-15-windows-with-wife-in-boot-11965500


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			is the flouting the rules?
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...collect-15-windows-with-wife-in-boot-11965500

Click to expand...

Dunno if he has no windows in his house then I would say yes ! But it might explain why the wife came along if the house is too cold 🤣


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## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			is the flouting the rules?
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...collect-15-windows-with-wife-in-boot-11965500

Click to expand...

I wasn't questioning that individuals are flouting the rules. I was asking how making them stricter would prevent it happening. Especially as many who are not following the current guidelines are not mindless idiots but those who described in this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ssage-not-getting-through-demographics-police


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## hovis (Mar 30, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I wasn't questioning that individuals are flouting the rules. I was asking how making them stricter would prevent it happening. Especially as many who are not following the current guidelines are not mindless idiots but those who described in this article:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ssage-not-getting-through-demographics-police

Click to expand...

i was just having a joke


----------



## Dando (Mar 30, 2020)

a good friend of mine was rushed to hospital yesterday with breathing difficulties and was placed on one of those new Dyson ventilators.

the nurse said that he's picking up nicely


----------



## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2020)




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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 30, 2020)

Dando said:



			a good friend of mine was rushed to hospital yesterday with breathing difficulties and was placed on one of those new Dyson ventilators.

the nurse said that he's picking up nicely  

Click to expand...

I think it's wrong  but I couldn't help laugh at that. Wouldn't it be miserable if you lived in a country right now that didn't have black humour? It is a good release from the tension.


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## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

Dando said:



			a good friend of mine was rushed to hospital yesterday with breathing difficulties and was placed on one of those new Dyson ventilators.

the nurse said that he's picking up nicely  

Click to expand...

I used to use one of his vacuum cleaners but now it's just sat in the hall gathering dust


----------



## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			i was just having a joke
		
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Sorry! No slight taken, I just thought I was being misunderstood


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			How much do we trust China to report correct figures? My opinion is that they could have done a lot more to restrict the spread a lot earlier if they locked down flights and travel etc, but, they tried to hide it at first resulting in what we have now.
		
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Yes that was a disaster,it could and maybe should have been contained in China.
But planes are still travelling all over the world now.


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## Crazyface (Mar 30, 2020)

Why are bike shops open?????????? Has BJ got shares in Halfords?


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## Dando (Mar 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think it's wrong  but I couldn't help laugh at that. Wouldn't it be miserable if you lived in a country right now that didn't have black humour? It is a good release from the tension.
		
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I have a very odd sense of humour so found that funnier than I should have


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 30, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why are bike shops open?????????? Has BJ got shares in Halfords?
		
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Yes a strange one that.
Key workers may use bikes for work?
It maybe that you can still go out on your bike.
So logically shoe shops should be open as you can still go walking.
But where would it end?


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## Imurg (Mar 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			i agree.  I personally think the reported death from China are grossly under reported.   I find it hard to belive China is only on 3000.  whe're going to top that!!!!!
		
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Not saying the Chinese aren't hiding but look at Germany....60k+ cases and just over 500 deaths......


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## huds1475 (Mar 30, 2020)

Positive news..

http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71...la-one-develop-life-saving-breathing-aids-nhs


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 30, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Positive news..

http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=6866375&u=https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/mar/ucl-uclh-and-formula-one-develop-life-saving-breathing-aids-nhs

Click to expand...

This shows what can be done if you take all the red tape crap out of the way.
You need checks and balances but we overdo it mostly.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Ok, we disagree but the point is we will have this threat for as long as we flaunt the rules.

P.s 
I'm not sure why we are listening to Dr. Calderwood who is a obstetrician and gynaecologist
		
Click to expand...

Why would I not listen to Scotlands Chief Medical Officer? Do you think she just makes decisions on her own and decides they are gospel?

Do you think she doesn't have advisors and doesn't link in with advice from the government and other health officials the world over?

Bit like saying why do we listen to professional golfers who turned pro off of 4 when you get guys playing off of+4!


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## BrianM (Mar 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes a strange one that.
Key workers may use bikes for work?
It maybe that you can still go out on your bike.
So logically shoe shops should be open as you can still go walking.
But where would it end?
		
Click to expand...

You have to check/order online for Halfords, the items will be taken to you at door I believe.


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 30, 2020)

From what I have seen the lockdown seems to be generally well adhered to, but you will always get the occasional idiot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 30, 2020)

We were on a Zoom audio/video chat with Mrs Hogie's nursing buddles in London and US - this was her group of close friends when they all did their training 40yrs ago and they kept in very close touch through all that time,  it was great as we usually see them around now - isn't technology great  

One couple and their daughter are all in front-line.  She is a very experienced and very senior ICU Nurse Practitioner/Lecturer and is assigned to the Nightingale Hospital by City Airport to train nurses in ventilation and ICU support to the Covid-19 patients  - she will be brilliant - very calm and very experienced.  He is a senior paramedic and is on the front line ambulance service in central London.  Their daughter is working in UCH London on the CV-19 wards - she says it's awful.  Basically if you end up need ventilation then your odds are not good...

Meanwhile Mrs Hogie received a 'You are assessed to be a Highly Vulnerable Person' letter.  This worried her massively last night as she doesn't consider that she is - she is a Breast Cancer specialist in the BC Now Helpline - and is 4 years out of chemo for BC.  But that didn't stop her worrying terribly.  Her main worry was that there was something in her record that she wasn't aware of. 

However she has checked with her specialist nurse (her old boss) yesterday and her current boss this morning, and it seems that there has been a very broad - 'catch-all/miss no-one' approach to sending out the letter - as a result many folks would have got a letter from the NHS even though they may not actually be highly vulnerable at all.   Just as vulnerable as the rest of us.

So if you know anyone who has got such a letter and didn't expect one - please reassure them that the NHS has take such a broad-brush approach and get them to try and speak to their specialist team if they are worried - as they will be.  It might not be easy to get through to their specialist contact point form their treatment.  If they can't there may well be a charity helpline that will know and will be able to help with their concerns.

Take care everyone - it's not good.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 30, 2020)

With most traffic off the streets maybe all who would normally take the train, bus or tube into work should be allowed to drive in - and park close to their hospital without congestion or emissions charge or on-street parking charges/restrictions.  NHS workers could be given a pass that would allow them to do so.  Police or traffic wardens could manage traffic.   

Of course I can see issues with such a scheme but just a thought to keep workers out of congested places such as a tube train.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With most traffic off the streets maybe all who would normally take the train, bus or tube into work should be allowed to drive in - and park close to their hospital without congestion or emissions charge or on-street parking charges/restrictions.  NHS workers could be given a pass that would allow them to do so.  Police or traffic wardens could manage traffic.  

Of course I can see issues with such a scheme but just a thought to keep workers out of congested places such as a tube train.
		
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All the hospital car parks must be empty.
Just put the barriers up and let staff park there.
Car park firms make enough money from the ill.
It’s time for them to help out a little, like everyone else.


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## Ross61 (Mar 30, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why are bike shops open?????????? Has BJ got shares in Halfords?
		
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Apparently there is a lot of health workers buying bikes to get to work rather than travel on crowded public transport.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With most traffic off the streets maybe all who would normally take the train, bus or tube into work should be allowed to drive in - and park close to their hospital without congestion or emissions charge or on-street parking charges/restrictions.  NHS workers could be given a pass that would allow them to do so.  Police or traffic wardens could manage traffic.   

Of course I can see issues with such a scheme but just a thought to keep workers out of congested places such as a tube train.
		
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Congestion and emission charges have been suspended in London...


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			How about a question/dilemma/fake news?

Germany policy is looking to test Germans widely for antibodies and issue certificates to those who are now immune and release them to work - it obviously raises the question - what about those who have not been infected but are still vulnerable?

UK Government strategy is also to crank up antibody testing and social distancing to flatten the curve of infections so the NHS can cope.
Within a window of about 12 months there is no cure or vaccine.
About 20% of UK are aged 65+ so in the more vulnerable group there's about 12mill people.
*If* 'flattening' the curve just delays the period before everyone has been infected and developed antibodies then these 12m will _eventually_ catch the virus.

Now for the unanswered question: if the death rate among those infected is currently running around 5% ish; (600,000 people - about the same as the annual UK deaths).
What are your plans? - sleep well !!!

(clearly in the 600K there will be many who would have died of normal/natural causes so the total would not be 1.2m - and I may have twisted the numerical logic a bit - phew)
		
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That's not strictly the case. Once you begin to get immunity in the community the immune act as fire breaks meaning the virus can't multiply and then be passed on by them. This is essentially what we have with flu and why everyone doesn't go down with it and why it doesn't fly around the vulnerable. As this begins increase the rate of infection will decrease and we'll be closer to a vaccine(s)


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## patricks148 (Mar 30, 2020)

coming back from a walk with the dog the other day, there is a narrow suspension bridge across the river, someon was walking over it when i arrived at the entrance to to it so waited. they crossed the bridge so on i went got half way across. when from the other side a man and woman came on. its a narrow brdge and wide enough for 2 people to pass each other with maybe a couple of feet gap between, so no chance of the correct social distance. Rupert on a lead, other dog not, not even a collar. asked them why they didn't wait for social distancing... told to F off, by both they could do as they liked. not only that but their dog started on Rupert, they just wandered off, called back to them to get their dog and another torrent of abuse........ wankers


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## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With most traffic off the streets maybe all who would normally take the train, bus or tube into work should be allowed to drive in - and park close to their hospital without congestion or emissions charge or on-street parking charges/restrictions.  NHS workers could be given a pass that would allow them to do so.  Police or traffic wardens could manage traffic.  

Of course I can see issues with such a scheme but just a thought to keep workers out of congested places such as a tube train.
		
Click to expand...

I'm imagining many of them in London and other large metropoli don't actually own cars. Most of the young people I know in London are in this situation.


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## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Why would I not listen to Scotlands Chief Medical Officer? Do you think she just makes decisions on her own and decides they are gospel?

Do you think she doesn't have advisors and doesn't link in with advice from the government and other health officials the world over?

Bit like saying why do we listen to professional golfers who turned pro off of 4 when you get guys playing off of+4!
		
Click to expand...


I'd rather listen to the expert than hear someone elses opinion on what the expert said.
And your golf analogy ........a pro who was off 4 spent 3 years learning to teach golf. The guy off +4 may not have a clue how to teach.


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## hovis (Mar 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Not saying the Chinese aren't hiding but look at Germany....60k+ cases and just over 500 deaths......
		
Click to expand...

forget about the cases as Germany are testing 500k a week and we are 70k a week.   so there numbers of infected is always going to be high.  germany are bracing for impact too  "according to the media"
i just find it hard to believe that a country like China with serious over population issues only had 3k deaths when the lockdowwn come seemingly late on


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 30, 2020)

Nicola making a statement at 2.30pm...….I think Scotland will be going into serious lockdown mode now.
Too many idiots not conforming. Patricks post gives a good example.


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## Rooter (Mar 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Not saying the Chinese aren't hiding but look at Germany....60k+ cases and just over 500 deaths......
		
Click to expand...

I read that in Germany, if the patient that has died had an underlying health condition, that is what is being logged as the cause of death, not COVID-19. So you could argue their figures are bullshit.


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## Imurg (Mar 30, 2020)

Rooter said:



			I read that in Germany, if the patient that has died had an underlying health condition, that is what is being logged as the cause of death, not COVID-19. So you could argue their figures are bullshit.
		
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Almost exactly  the opposite of how we record deaths here......


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## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

Some of the buses are putting up messages thanking the NHS.   Saw one go past me, but could not take a pic as not safe.  It is a small thing, but i hope it goes a long way..


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola making a statement at 2.30pm...….I think Scotland will be going into serious lockdown mode now.
Too many idiots not conforming. Patricks post gives a good example.
		
Click to expand...

Can she go into self-isolation for about the next 10 years?


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'd rather listen to the expert than hear someone elses opinion on what the expert said.
And your golf analogy ........a pro who was off 4 spent 3 years learning to teach golf. The guy off +4 may not have a clue how to teach.
		
Click to expand...

Well i guess Scotland appointed an unfit, unqualified person. 

🙄


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Can she go into self-isolation for about the next 10 years?   

Click to expand...

Why would she do that when she's been on the ball right from the off? She shut the schools ahead of the rest of Britain, she was more forceful and left us with no doubt what we could and couldn't do in the current "lockdown" unlike the mixed messages from Boris.


----------



## ferenezejohn (Mar 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			coming back from a walk with the dog the other day, there is a narrow suspension bridge across the river, someon was walking over it when i arrived at the entrance to to it so waited. they crossed the bridge so on i went got half way across. when from the other side a man and woman came on. its a narrow brdge and wide enough for 2 people to pass each other with maybe a couple of feet gap between, so no chance of the correct social distance. Rupert on a lead, other dog not, not even a collar. asked them why they didn't wait for social distancing... told to F off, by both they could do as they liked. not only that but their dog started on Rupert, they just wandered off, called back to them to get their dog and another torrent of abuse........ wankers
		
Click to expand...

You should have stopped on the bridge and went into a fit of coughing 🙄


----------



## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Well i guess Scotland appointed an unfit, unqualified person.

🙄
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure she's fit and qualified in her field of medicine.
If you had a problem with your feet, would you ask a podiatrist or a gynaecologist for advice?


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...

Meanwhile Mrs Hogie received a 'You are assessed to be a Highly Vulnerable Person' letter.  This worried her massively last night as she doesn't consider that she is - she is a Breast Cancer specialist in the BC Now Helpline - and is 4 years out of chemo for BC.  But that didn't stop her worrying terribly.  Her main worry was that there was something in her record that she wasn't aware of.

However she has checked with her specialist nurse (her old boss) yesterday and her current boss this morning, and it seems that there has been a very broad - 'catch-all/miss no-one' approach to sending out the letter - as a result many folks would have got a letter from the NHS even though they may not actually be highly vulnerable at all.   Just as vulnerable as the rest of us.
....
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is that anyone who has had chemo is considered 'highly vulnerable' as their immune system is likely to be very weak. The wife of one of the guys at my work is 'group isolating' with fellow leukemia survivors in that category.


----------



## HowlingGale (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure she's fit and qualified in her field of medicine.
If you had a problem with your feet, would you ask a podiatrist or a gynaecologist for advice?
		
Click to expand...

Chief medical officer was appointed way before this outbreak. She'll be getting info from all sorts of experts. She might not be a virology expert but has a base knowledge of the subject that exceeds you or I by orders of magnitude.
You will not get a chief medical officer who is an expert in every medical field. Her day-to-day job is vastly different to what she's doing now.
Personally think the way the Scottish Government has handled this has been exemplary, and I'm no fan of the Scottish government. Can't really think why you'd be bothered about her background


----------



## patricks148 (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure she's fit and qualified in her field of medicine.
If you had a problem with your feet, would you ask a podiatrist or a gynaecologist for advice?
		
Click to expand...

There you go Crawford, all those problems with your feet were because you were seeing a Gynaecologist and not a podiatrist


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## pokerjoke (Mar 30, 2020)

Interesting question I ask myself
Are Tesco and other supermarkets testing staff.
Tesco because I shopped there yesterday and today a delivery van turned up looking for a house they couldn’t find.
They are certainly asking shoppers to keep the 2m rule but today 2 turned up in the van,and yesterday some staff we’re working together only a ft or 2 apart.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 30, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Can she go into self-isolation for about the next 10 years?   

Click to expand...

Oh dear..............are you not aware the Johnson has beaten her too it.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Mar 30, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Interesting question I ask myself
Are Tesco and other supermarkets testing staff.
Tesco because I shopped there yesterday and today a delivery van turned up looking for a house they couldn’t find.
They are certainly asking shoppers to keep the 2m rule but today 2 turned up in the van,and yesterday some staff we’re working together only a ft or 2 apart.
		
Click to expand...

Same here with the delivery van.
I think they are training staff.


----------



## Beezerk (Mar 30, 2020)

Just had another conference call, that's us officially furloughed (spelling) for at least a month.
It sucks, I guess the only silver lining is I'll be getting paid a reasonable wage for sitting on my @rse all month.


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			...
I'm not sure why we are listening to Dr. Calderwood who is a obstetrician and gynaecologist
		
Click to expand...

She may have qualified as, and been, an obstetrician and gynaecologist. But, for a long time now, she has been an medical administrator. And that's why she should be listened to. She will, no doubt, have advisers with specialist knowledge of this particular area - or any other area under her administration.

Same applies in a Golf Club. As overall head of administration, the Chief Executive Officer doesn't necessarily, but may, come from a golfing background! It's his/her administration/vision/execution that is the primary attribute of that role!


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## MegaSteve (Mar 30, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Interesting question I ask myself
Are Tesco and other supermarkets testing staff.
Tesco because I shopped there yesterday and today a delivery van turned up looking for a house they couldn’t find.
They are certainly asking shoppers to keep the 2m rule but today 2 turned up in the van,and yesterday some staff we’re working together only a ft or 2 apart.
		
Click to expand...

Wait around a bit, as someone will be along 'advising ' this is folk just doing their best for you and beyond criticism...


----------



## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Chief medical officer was appointed way before this outbreak. She'll be getting info from all sorts of experts. She might not be a virology expert but has a base knowledge of the subject that exceeds you or I by orders of magnitude.
You will not get a chief medical officer who is an expert in every medical field. Her day-to-day job is vastly different to what she's doing now.
Personally think the way the Scottish Government has handled this has been exemplary, and I'm no fan of the Scottish government. Can't really think why you'd be bothered about her background
		
Click to expand...

I'm well aware and agree with everything you say.
But what if the experts disagree?
She has to decide what's best.
If someone tells me to stay indoors for 3 months, I want to make sure it's the best advice.




Foxholer said:



			She will, no doubt, have advisers with specialist knowledge of this particular area - or any other area under her administration.
		
Click to expand...

Is this something you think I don't know?


----------



## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			...Is this something you think I don't know?
		
Click to expand...

Yet you chose to ignore, or at least give insignificant weight, to that knowledge!



bobmac said:



			...
If someone tells me to stay indoors for 3 months, I want to make sure it's the best advice.
		
Click to expand...

How would *you* know whether it was or wasn't?


----------



## Slab (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm well aware and agree with everything you say.
*But what if the experts disagree?*
She has to decide what's best.
If someone tells me to stay indoors for 3 months, I want to make sure it's the best advice.
		
Click to expand...

Can experts disagree on medical facts. Probably not
and if she's giving a brief to the FM on other doctors opinions she'll likely give both
if she's giving the public a brief its probably one based based facts
if she's briefing the public based only on other doctors opinions, well that would be bad.... is that what she's done?


----------



## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

Slab said:



			Can experts disagree on medical facts. Probably not
and if she's giving a brief to the FM on other doctors opinions she'll likely give both
if she's giving the public a brief its probably one based based facts
if she's briefing the public based only on other doctors opinions, well that would be bad.... is that what she's done?
		
Click to expand...

This isn't just about medical facts, the question is how to stop people dying from the virus and to not overload the NHS.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 30, 2020)

For some, the insistence by others that we should really only listen to the experts on any complex matter is almost bed-wettingly funny in a terribly ironic and depressing way - especially with the circumstances being so dreadfully serious...


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			coming back from a walk with the dog the other day, there is a narrow suspension bridge across the river, someon was walking over it when i arrived at the entrance to to it so waited. they crossed the bridge so on i went got half way across. when from the other side a man and woman came on. its a narrow brdge and wide enough for 2 people to pass each other with maybe a couple of feet gap between, so no chance of the correct social distance. Rupert on a lead, other dog not, not even a collar. asked them why they didn't wait for social distancing... told to F off, by both they could do as they liked. not only that but their dog started on Rupert, they just wandered off, called back to them to get their dog and another torrent of abuse........ wankers
		
Click to expand...

And therein lies the problem with trying to let people do the right thing.  We are in unprecedented times which people just do not get.  They believe they can do what they want, and stuff the rest.  The reaction you got is typical of these arrogant people.  Interestingly, I think the more people know they're wrong, the more aggressive they get in their response to justify what they are doing. 
I found the same when I challenge people who park in disabled spaces without badges.  They try to justify why they've done it and then get more abusive as they know they're in the wrong and what they are doing is basically, morally, indefensible.  They just don't like people telling them.


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## HowlingGale (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm well aware and agree with everything you say.
But what if the experts disagree?
She has to decide what's best.
If someone tells me to stay indoors for 3 months, I want to make sure it's the best advice.
QUOTE]
If the experts disagree then she has no chance. 
Which expert would you listen to? The one that told you to sit tight for 3 months, or the one that tells you you can go out?

We are in unprecedented times. We will only know what the correct choice was after the fact. Right now we can only mitigate the risk to overloading the NHS, and they seem to be doing that. Hopefully it lasts.
		
Click to expand...


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## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With most traffic off the streets maybe all who would normally take the train, bus or tube into work should be allowed to drive in - and park close to their hospital without congestion or emissions charge or on-street parking charges/restrictions.  NHS workers could be given a pass that would allow them to do so.  Police or traffic wardens could manage traffic.  

Of course I can see issues with such a scheme but just a thought to keep workers out of congested places such as a tube train.
		
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Congestion and emissions charges for front line workers was lifted last week as was on site parking charges.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			There you go Crawford, all those problems with your feet were because you were seeing a Gynaecologist and not a podiatrist

Click to expand...

My brother had a big problem with his left foot.
He seen a podiatrist but it turned out his problem was his hip.
So it’s not so black and white.
They need to work together ,but need a media presence that’s all.


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## patricks148 (Mar 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My brother had a big problem with his left foot.
He seen a podiatrist but it turned out his problem was his hip.
So it’s not so black and white.
They need to work together ,but need a media presence that’s all.
		
Click to expand...

what did they say about his fanny


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## Fish (Mar 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Congestion and emissions charges for front line workers was lifted last week as was on site parking charges.
		
Click to expand...

They were lifted for everyone, not just front line workers, it’s impossible for them to identify who is and who isn’t, anyway.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what did they say about his fanny

Click to expand...

Phisio said he had child bearing hips.


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## Slab (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			This isn't just about medical facts, the question is how to stop people dying from the virus and to not overload the NHS.
		
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A heady responsibility. I consider myself fortunate that it isn't me that has to make those judgement calls


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## Hobbit (Mar 30, 2020)

Not being able to go to a friend's funeral. It kinda really smacks you on the back of the head.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not being able to go to a friend's funeral. It kinda really smacks you on the back of the head.
		
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Yes and if it’s a big family not all will be allowed to attend.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 30, 2020)

A work colleague's dad died on Friday.  He was in hospital serious ill.  They were not able to be with him  in his final hours.  My colleague is pretty pragmatic about it as I don't think his dad had much perception of what was happening and it was going to happen sooner rather than later.  Funeral might only be a small handful of closest family allowed.  Difficult times indeed.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not being able to go to a friend's funeral. It kinda really smacks you on the back of the head.
		
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In the same boat tomorrow... Close family only... Basically my mates missus and kids...

Will be off the wagon, for the day, to bloody make sure I have a toast for a life well lived...


----------



## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

My cousin travelled from Germany to India...  Was in quarantine - which he did not follow completely.   Earlier this week taken to hospital with flu symptoms.  Test have come negative.  Sigh of relief followed by a earful from everyone for his behaviour ...  every family has an idiot.


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## Italian outcast (Mar 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not being able to go to a friend's funeral. It kinda really smacks you on the back of the head.
		
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This is one of the harder things
One of the lass's elderly relatives died about 10 days ago (there have been others since)
There was a stream from the church where the priest said the mass and family and friends could join in the mass online
Worked very well and provided some genuine consolation


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			.. the question is how to stop people dying...and to not overload the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

Well, that's been her role for several years!


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## Slime (Mar 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			i agree.  I personally think the reported death from China are grossly under reported.   I find it hard to belive China is only on 3000.  whe're going to top that!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

So, what do you think the real figure is?


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

They've made changes to our bin collections.  It used to be 
Brown bins (food and garden waste) - every week
Green bins (metal and plastics), blue bins (paper and cardboard) and grey bins (general waste), each being collected on a three weekly cycle. 
They will now be collecting Green and Grey bins on alternate weeks. 
Green bins remain metal and plastics, Grey bins take everything else.


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## hovis (Mar 30, 2020)

Slime said:



			So, what do you think the real figure is?
		
Click to expand...

id at least say on par with Italy


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Ours are stopping the weekly food waste. It  now has to go into the household waste. That gets collected every other week


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## pokerjoke (Mar 30, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			They've made changes to our bin collections.  It used to be
Brown bins (food and garden waste) - every week
Green bins (metal and plastics), blue bins (paper and cardboard) and grey bins (general waste), each being collected on a three weekly cycle.
They will now be collecting Green and Grey bins on alternate weeks.
Green bins remain metal and plastics, Grey bins take everything else.
		
Click to expand...

Tough life


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## Stuart_C (Mar 30, 2020)

Slime said:



			So, what do you think the real figure is?
		
Click to expand...

Closer to 300,000


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## Slime (Mar 30, 2020)

Just heard that Prince Charles is now out of self-isolation.
It reminded me of this;


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## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Tough life

Click to expand...

Oh, I never said it was tough.  The thread was how has it affected you.  This is an affect, just not a major one.


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## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

Slime said:



			Just heard that Prince Charles is now out of self-isolation.
It reminded me of this;

View attachment 29545

Click to expand...

Not even funny anymore


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## adam6177 (Mar 30, 2020)

I work in the financial industry and we use "chat rooms" to keep everyone up to speed on things and ask questions between teams.... Unfortunately as we all know from on here, sometimes things dont come across well in written form and would be better discussed face to face

End of last week tensions were building between a couple of guys (stuff I'm sure would have been fine face to face)... Today it absolutely exploded in a completely unprofessional way with them having a full on swearing fight that everyone else could read.

Stress.  It's a horrible thing..... Just take a breath.


----------



## ger147 (Mar 30, 2020)

Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.


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## Imurg (Mar 30, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

This is what your up against. Idiots and rockets.

Had someone tell me last week we were infringing on his human rights. 

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...-driving-due-to-boredom-and-shoppers-11965903


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## Beezerk (Mar 30, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.
		
Click to expand...

All the best mate.


----------



## AmandaJR (Mar 30, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.
		
Click to expand...

Fingers crossed for you both.


----------



## AmandaJR (Mar 30, 2020)

Really missing seeing my brother  I have two sisters and two brothers but George and I are the only ones who still live in the UK. We speak on the phone at least once a week and try to meet up once a week as well. Chatted today and just really missed the plans to meet and the thought of not seeing him for at least a few weeks is tough. He lives alone, and is very self-sufficient and happy in his own company, but know he looks forward to our meetings as much as I do.


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## User20205 (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			This is what your up against. Idiots and rockets.

Had someone tell me last week we were infringing on his human rights.

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...-driving-due-to-boredom-and-shoppers-11965903

Click to expand...

Reckon common sense has to be applied on both sides, shame it doesn’t always exist on both sides.  
People having full on house parties need to be sanctioned. Not sure they do if they’re walking their dog or going for a run.
Heard a story about police insisting to see a strava app so the runner could prove he was out for less than an hour. Not seen any time limits in the guidelines


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## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

therod said:



			Reckon common sense has to be applied on both sides, shame it doesn’t always exist on both sides. 
People having full on house parties need to be sanctioned. Not sure they do if they’re walking their dog or going for a run.
Heard a story about police insisting to see a strava app so the runner could prove he was out for less than an hour. Not seen any time limits in the guidelines
		
Click to expand...

National ID cards, tracking on phones and bank cards like South Korea. Innocent law abiding people have nothing to worry about.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I used to use one of his vacuum cleaners but now it's just sat in the hall gathering dust  

Click to expand...

I threw out a waste paper bin like that, it just collected rubbish.


----------



## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck...  I am sure all of you will ride it out..


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## williamalex1 (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			National ID cards, tracking on phones and bank cards like South Korea. Innocent law abiding people have nothing to worry about.
		
Click to expand...

And bus passes


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			This is what your up against. Idiots and rockets.

Had someone tell me last week we were infringing on his human rights.

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...-driving-due-to-boredom-and-shoppers-11965903

Click to expand...

Just out of interest how are they going to get everybody in the court without breaking the rules ... or satisfying statutory rights.


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			This is what your up against. Idiots and rockets.

Had someone tell me last week we were infringing on his human rights.

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...-driving-due-to-boredom-and-shoppers-11965903

Click to expand...

Over zealous plod. What a surprise.


----------



## Orikoru (Mar 30, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			They've made changes to our bin collections.  It used to be
Brown bins (food and garden waste) - every week
Green bins (metal and plastics), blue bins (paper and cardboard) and grey bins (general waste), each being collected on a three weekly cycle.
They will now be collecting Green and Grey bins on alternate weeks.
Green bins remain metal and plastics, Grey bins take everything else.
		
Click to expand...

We've found this out today as well - recycling bin used to be collected every week, today they didn't bother and it's going to be every two weeks. Only problem is the bloody thing is already full. Three of us being home all day every day tends to stack it up a lot quicker.


----------



## Orikoru (Mar 30, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.
		
Click to expand...

Can you really isolate from your own spouse? If my wife caught it I'd just resign myself to the fact I'm getting it too - or the same vice versa. Hope all is well for you anyway.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			There you go Crawford, all those problems with your feet were because you were seeing a Gynaecologist and not a podiatrist

Click to expand...

But he can be a bit of a fanny at times and due the odd boot up the jacksie,  BTW the wife hates crawsfeet.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My brother had a big problem with his left foot.
He seen a podiatrist but it turned out his problem was his hip.
So it’s not so black and white.
They need to work together ,but need a media presence that’s all.
		
Click to expand...

I enjoyed your Technicolour film , My Left Foot


----------



## User20205 (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			National ID cards, tracking on phones and bank cards like South Korea. Innocent law abiding people have nothing to worry about.
		
Click to expand...

yeah right, because that’s not open to misuse🤣🤣


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Over zealous plod. What a surprise.
		
Click to expand...

Keeping idiots like you and your loved ones safe.

👍


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Can you really isolate from your own spouse? If my wife caught it I'd just resign myself to the fact I'm getting it too - or the same vice versa. Hope all is well for you anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah same here I think. If the course was open I'd could stay away from her though.


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Keeping idiots like you and your loved ones safe.

👍
		
Click to expand...

Classy


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

therod said:



			yeah right, because that’s not open to misuse🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Do nothing wrong you have nowt to worry about.

Maybe even a tracker chip between the shoulder blades? Easier again


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Classy
		
Click to expand...

As classy as having a dig at the emergency services all working hard to keep the country ticking over.


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## User20205 (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Do nothing wrong you have nowt to worry about.

Maybe even a tracker chip between the shoulder blades? Easier again
		
Click to expand...

No need for your lot then, just a massive computer. You’re talking yourself out of a job


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## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Keeping idiots like you and your loved ones safe.

👍
		
Click to expand...

Safe from what? Shops selling Easter eggs.?


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

therod said:



			No need for your lot then, just a massive computer. You’re talking yourself out of a job
		
Click to expand...

Perfect. Plenty of other jobs out there. 👍


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			As classy as having a dig at the emergency services all working hard to keep the country ticking over.
		
Click to expand...

Who's having a dig,  there are multiple confirmed reports of the police and authorities over stepping the mark with regards to the current lockdown.
I find that unacceptable.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Who's having a dig,  there are multiple confirmed reports of the police and authorities over stepping the mark with regards to the current lockdown.
I find that unacceptable.
		
Click to expand...

Good. I'm glad.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Who's having a dig,  there are multiple confirmed reports of the police and authorities over stepping the mark with regards to the current lockdown.
I find that unacceptable.
		
Click to expand...

Let's see some multiple links then, or are you making it up.


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Let's see some multiple links then, or are you making it up.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry do your own leg work. I'm not here to spoon feed you.
Use Google,  it won't take long.


----------



## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Good. I'm glad.
		
Click to expand...

Really?
The best way to make this work is to keep as many people onside as possible.
Once there is a groundswell of opinion against what is being asked of us, it'll be more likely to lead to behaviour against the common good.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Mar 30, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that. Hope it's only mild but do keep a close eye as it can get worse quickly. Hope she gets over it quickly and you don't get it


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Really?
The best way to make this work is to keep as many people onside as possible.
Once there is a groundswell of opinion against what is being asked of us, it'll be more likely to lead to behaviour against the common good.
		
Click to expand...

Groundswell, sorry the vast majority of the public are obeying a few muppets start mouthing off about human rights, overzealous etc etc. A couple of human rights lawyers jump on the bandwagon.

How about these idiots that think they can just do what they like realise that these rules are for everyone.

What needs to happen is people adhere to what is going on for the good of the country.

👍


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry do your own leg work. I'm not here to spoon feed you.
Use Google,  it won't take long.
		
Click to expand...

Your normal response when you can't back out your claims.


----------



## 2blue (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Groundswell, sorry the vast majority of the public are obeying a few muppets start mouthing off about human rights, overzealous etc etc. A couple of human rights lawyers jump on the bandwagon.

How about these idiots that think they can just do what they like realise that these rules are for everyone.

What needs to happen is people adhere to what is going on for the good of the country.

👍
		
Click to expand...

Largely agree though Human Rights is one of the greatest rights we have.......  its the abuse of it thats the problem like the abuse of anything.  Your doing a great job, kidda though I fear that in the final examination we'll find that the NHS staff have been hung out to dry......  not enough testing is happening!!


----------



## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Groundswell, sorry the vast majority of the public are obeying a few muppets start mouthing off about human rights, overzealous etc etc. A couple of human rights lawyers jump on the bandwagon.

How about these idiots that think they can just do what they like realise that these rules are for everyone.

What needs to happen is people adhere to what is going on for the good of the country.

👍
		
Click to expand...

I don't disagree that the behaviour of the whole population is important in our relationship with the virus.
I believe that policing that is seen as not related to any specific written law works against that.
With reference to old skiers remarks, while we were at dinner tonight my daughter described how the online chat at her (professional) firm is full of normal educated peoples' disquiet about the lack of legal justification for various measures which are being policed. I realise that this is anecdotal, but I imagine that a groundswell of such opinion exists across the country. And we can be sure that opinions and sentiment travels even faster than microorganisms.


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

2blue said:



			Largely agree though Human Rights is one of the greatest rights we have.......  its the abuse of it thats the problem like the abuse of anything.  Your doing a great job, kidda though I fear that in the final examination we'll find that the NHS staff have been hung out to dry......  not enough testing is happening!!
		
Click to expand...

In the SW it appears that the NHS is leaving the care sector hung out to dry by not distributing the PPE from the central distribution points.


----------



## williamalex1 (Mar 30, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry to hear that. Hope it's only mild but do keep a close eye as it can get worse quickly. Hope she gets over it quickly and you don't get it
		
Click to expand...

 They're both young healthy and 1 of them is good looking, so they  both should hopefully be fine.
BTW Gerry you're not the good looking one


----------



## Imurg (Mar 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your normal response when you can't back out your claims.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe its Facebook talk


----------



## robinthehood (Mar 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Maybe its Facebook talk

Click to expand...

No, it's one of the main stories on a very popular news site. 
Unlike some stories being peddled on here 😂😂


----------



## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I don't disagree that the behaviour of the whole population is important in our relationship with the virus.
I believe that policing that is seen as not related to any specific written law works against that.
With reference to old skiers remarks, while we were at dinner tonight my daughter described how the online chat at her (professional) firm is full of normal educated peoples' disquiet about the lack of legal justification for various measures which are being policed. I realise that this is anecdotal, but I imagine that a groundswell of such opinion exists across the country. And we can be sure that opinions and sentiment travels even faster than microorganisms.
		
Click to expand...

Not wanting to belittle the conversation and yes I agree with respect rights and I am also of the opinion sometimes you do as your told from the authorities that matter ( not some self appointed person, commonly found on this forum). 
But perhaps the press are doing their best to stir up what is not required given the current situation.. everyone is already on edge and getting a little tetchy with one another. Common benefit of the doubt is being cast aside as is common sense .. however if they are serial offenders nothing wrong with the police behaviour whatsoever.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

2blue said:



			Largely agree though Human Rights is one of the greatest rights we have.......  its the abuse of it thats the problem like the abuse of anything.  Your doing a great job, kidda though I fear that in the final examination we'll find that the NHS staff have been hung out to dry......  not enough testing is happening!!
		
Click to expand...

Testing needs to be rolled out to everyone. I'd happily pay (if affordable) for my family.


----------



## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			We've found this out today as well - recycling bin used to be collected every week, today they didn't bother and it's going to be every two weeks. Only problem is the bloody thing is already full. Three of us being home all day every day tends to stack it up a lot quicker.
		
Click to expand...

We're in the same boat. Our been bin is full to the gunnels and the grey bin is being there.  I'm hoping after a couple of weeks it will settle down


----------



## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

There are those that feel their human rights are more important than others human rights. The minority unfortunately blew the argument out of the window and theirand the majority's human rights went with it.


----------



## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			No, it's one of the main stories on a very popular news site.
Unlike some stories being peddled on here 😂😂
		
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Mate, he is a self appointed judge .. morally outraged at the drop of a hat. You can correct, but it will not be acceptable on any level and will escalate up ..


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## hovis (Mar 30, 2020)

personally if it gets me on the golf course faster I'd be happy for the police to knock the granny out of who they like. just stick to the rules.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 30, 2020)

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...-driving-due-to-boredom-and-shoppers-11965903


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Testing needs to be rolled out to everyone. I'd happily pay (if affordable) for my family.
		
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Totally agree, some people could be spreading because they have a mild case.. plus there are different symptoms and they can all be misinterpreted .. so testing would smash the doubt, impact the stats and perhaps catch early stuff


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## Jacko_G (Mar 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			personally if it gets me on the golf course faster I'd be happy for the police to knock the granny out of who they like. just stick to the rules.
		
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All that people are being asked to do is adhere to the rules re isolation and slowing down the spread. 

How difficult is that to understand. Only this country do you get mindless idiots who want to do their own thing and then quote human rights legislation. How about they kindly consider everyone else's human rights. 

I can't understand the mentality of some people.


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## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Mate, he is a self appointed judge .. morally outraged at the drop of a hat. You can correct, but it will not be acceptable on any level and will escalate up ..
		
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Says the one who showed through his post of the day that he has none.


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## Hobbit (Mar 30, 2020)

Lockdown isn't a difficult concept, nor is the police's authority to fine someone who abuses the emergency laws. 

Is an hour's drive to the Peak District or the Lakes a necessary journey? If you want to go for a walk, step outside your front door. If you're in the car driving somewhere to go for a walk you deserve to be fined.

And £60? What deterrent is £60? €600 for a first offence over here, rising to €1500 stops people from being stupid.

"You're infringing my human rights!"
"No sir, I'm protecting society from idiots like you. Go on home, there's a good citizen."


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Says the one who showed through his post of the day that he has none.
		
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None of what?


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## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			None of what?
		
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Work it out


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## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry do your own leg work. I'm not here to spoon feed you.
Use Google,  it won't take long.
		
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In fairness, if you make the claims you should provide the evidence yourself to back it up.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 30, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			In fairness, if you make the claims you should provide the evidence yourself to back it up.
		
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In fairness he is unable to reply as he has temporarily left the building


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## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In fairness he is unable to reply as he has temporarily left the building
		
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Sorry, that made me


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## hovis (Mar 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In fairness he is unable to reply as he has temporarily left the building
		
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best come back ever


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Work it out
		
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Nah, you need to say


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## Robster59 (Mar 30, 2020)

Not affecting me directly but this is what's happening at our company
Military drivers learn to drive oxygen tankers


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## Stuart_C (Mar 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In fairness he is unable to reply as he has temporarily left the building
		
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Boooooooo RTH brings so much to this place.

I'll miss him.


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## bobmac (Mar 30, 2020)

I don't think the virus gives a monkeys about your ''human rights''.


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## garyinderry (Mar 30, 2020)

Theres a big problem among the factores in northern ireland. Nearly all are claiming to be essential businesses when in fact they make items such as cardboard boxes, cream liqueurs, computer chips for hard drives and such like. 
Hundreds of men working in environments that are a breeding ground for this virus. Social distancing put in place but it reality it is inadequate and the lives of the workers are being put af risk. 

I'd bet the same is happening up and down the country. 
3 people cant congregate in a field yet many are working in close proximity in the name of company profits. 

Stephen nolan was up in arms about this on his show this morning. The companies remain open and flouting advice from Westminster and our first ministers.


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## pendodave (Mar 30, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Boooooooo RTH brings so much to this place.

I'll miss him.
		
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Poor old RTH....
Now he's gone, he won't be here to find out that his concerns may have been right all along :
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ment-powers-following-criticism-lord-sumption
I assume he said a naughty word, as I only saw him offering an alternative point of view in his usual inimitable fashion....


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## garyinderry (Mar 30, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Theres a big problem among the factores in northern ireland. Nearly all are claiming to be essential businesses when in fact they make items such as cardboard boxes, cream liqueurs, computer chips for hard drives and such like.
Hundreds of men working in environments that are a breeding ground for this virus. Social distancing put in place but it reality it is inadequate and the lives of the workers are being put af risk.

I'd bet the same is happening up and down the country.
3 people cant congregate in a field yet many are working in close proximity in the name of company profits.

Stephen nolan was up in arms about this on his show this morning. The companies remain open and flouting advice from Westminster and our first ministers.
		
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https://www.theguardian.com/global/...Pw7b1OfG9vzHTfVN8JYA2_upCg#Echobox=1585601517



As expected.   Same thing repeating in England.   It cant go on.


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## Stuart_C (Mar 30, 2020)

garyinderry said:



https://www.theguardian.com/global/...Pw7b1OfG9vzHTfVN8JYA2_upCg#Echobox=1585601517



As expected.   Same thing repeating in England.   It cant go on.
		
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I blame the loonies who are still buying stuff. Give it a rest ffs. The buyers not you J 👍🏻


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## Stuart_C (Mar 30, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Poor old RTH....
Now he's gone, he won't be here to find out that his concerns may have been right all along :
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ment-powers-following-criticism-lord-sumption
I assume he said a naughty word, as I only saw him offering an alternative point of view in his usual inimitable fashion....
		
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It must be hard for the OB not to abuse their “power”, after all its naturally ingrained in *SOME* on a daily basis. The majority are no doubt good professional people who do their best.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 30, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			We're in the same boat. Our been bin is full to the gunnels and the grey bin is being there.  I'm hoping after a couple of weeks it will settle down
		
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Why not just suspend recycling until this emergency period is over,  uplift and dump everything in the same place at the same time .
 We've done it for years and years, a few more months wont make that much difference.
 Why are the local waste disposal centres closed, surely it's easy to keep safe distances there, 
you never see anyone anyway, unless you try to put something in the wrong skip.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

jobr1850 said:



			know a few who got privately tested, £249 a pop though
		
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Ouch £1k is steep for the four of us. 😳


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## williamalex1 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Ouch £1k is steep for the four of us. 😳
		
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Seemingly you can get them illegally for less than 1k . Only joshing.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 31, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In fairness he is unable to reply as he has temporarily left the building
		
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I got stoned and I missed it lol [ a well known country song  Dr Hook on youtube] So the Sherriff eventually caught Robin by the goolies and now on remand   , but he's not out of the woods yet.  karma .


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your normal response when you can't back out your claims.
		
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Imurg said:



			Maybe its Facebook talk

Click to expand...

To be fair I read about it just as I got in. It’s in a national newspaper and isn’t the sun.


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Theres a big problem among the factores in northern ireland. Nearly all are claiming to be essential businesses when in fact they make items such as cardboard boxes, cream liqueurs, computer chips for hard drives and such like.
Hundreds of men working in environments that are a breeding ground for this virus. Social distancing put in place but it reality it is inadequate and the lives of the workers are being put af risk.

I'd bet the same is happening up and down the country.
3 people cant congregate in a field yet many are working in close proximity in the name of company profits.

Stephen nolan was up in arms about this on his show this morning. The companies remain open and flouting advice from Westminster and our first ministers.
		
Click to expand...

Have the rules changed recently? As far as I understood it, there was no requirement yet for the business to be essential. The only requirement was that the person had to work from home unless the job they had could not be done at home. 
I’ve seen a few people refer to the term “essential”, but I’ve not actually seen it in the guidelines. Have I missed something?


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## Slab (Mar 31, 2020)

4 days away from end of lock-down... extended by another 2 weeks (I didn't expect 2 weeks to be enough but still didn't want to hear that its doubled 

I'd guess the UK will still need to endure a few weeks of proper lockdown, sorry guys I'd doubt that any efforts you've made to date will count for anything


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

My lad told one of his technicians to leave a site yesterday... In current circumstances work is only being done when/where proper distancing can be achieved... Despite several verbal warnings, from the technician, and a 'phone call from my lad the site manager failed to take the message on board... Believe a re-visit has been scheduled but with a different site manager in attendance...

Also, the lad attended a virtual party last evening... No Uber involved... Think I might suggest similar for a forthcoming reunion... Not sure how a bunch of geriatric luddites will cope but it might be fun giving it a go... Certainly be less embarrassing for me as currently only drinking fizzy water... I can pass it off as being Vodka...


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Have the rules changed recently? As far as I understood it, there was no requirement yet for the business to be essential. The only requirement was that the person had to work from home unless the job they had could not be done at home.
I’ve seen a few people refer to the term “essential”, but I’ve not actually seen it in the guidelines. Have I missed something?
		
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Also, can one of the more knowledgeable posters on here post up a list of the Actual Government rules regarding the lockdown. There appears to be some discrepancy between the way some rules are understood. Thanks.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Also, can one of the more knowledgeable posters on here post up a list of the Actual Government rules regarding the lockdown. There appears to be some discrepancy between the way some rules are understood. Thanks.
		
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I believe part of 'the problem' is that "government rules" appear to be fluid and open to change on an almost daily basis... Last week it was initially OK to travel to take exercise second half of the week it wasn't for example...


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## backwoodsman (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Testing needs to be rolled out to everyone. I'd happily pay (if affordable) for my family.
		
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Trouble is,  the current test is not really any good for general use as it only says "yes you have it" or "no you don't ". It won't tell you anything about your condition "tomorrow". Hence it's really only any use for when someone is suspected of being infected - and an "all clear" can give someone (say a health care worker) the ok to carry on & not have to isolate. What we need on a general basis, is the hoped for antibody test which will say "you're immune"


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe part of 'the problem' is that "government rules" appear to be fluid and open to change on an almost daily basis... Last week it was initially OK to travel to take exercise second half of the week it wasn't for example...
		
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But therein lies the problem. I haven’t seen anything stating that travelling to take exercise is against the “law”. It’s been advised against (and should be adhered to), but could you arrest/fine someone for it?

Also, this 1 hour limit I've seen mentioned on here. Is that actually true? Or is it something that people have invented? I genuinely don't know what the actual "real" rules are anymore. I thought I did. I've read several Government releases over the last few days. But there are new "rules" being mentioned daily.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Have the rules changed recently? As far as I understood it, there was no requirement yet for the business to be essential. The only requirement was that the person had to work from home unless the job they had could not be done at home. 
I’ve seen a few people refer to the term “essential”, but I’ve not actually seen it in the guidelines. Have I missed something?
		
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No you haven't, your explanation is correct. People have seen the word essential and then not bothered reading the rest of the govt information. They are then going off on an incorrect, high handed rant about people doing what they are both entitled and encouraged to do, go to work. Do it safely,  keep 2m apart but otherwise keep working.


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No you haven't, your explanation is correct. People have seen the word essential and then not bothered reading the rest of the govt information. They are then going off on an incorrect, high handed rant about people doing what they are both entitled and encouraged to do, go to work. Do it safely,  keep 2m apart but otherwise keep working.
		
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Thank you. It's hard enough at the moment without people deliberately misinterpreting the rules..


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## patricks148 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Ouch £1k is steep for the four of us. 😳
		
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you can afford it you still have our £10's


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			you can afford it you still have our £10's

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Haha, I'm up to £89 on roulette wheels so far.


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## chellie (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Also, can one of the more knowledgeable posters on here post up a list of the Actual Government rules regarding the lockdown. There appears to be some discrepancy between the way some rules are understood. Thanks.
		
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Does this help although it doesn't say on there about limiting exercise to an hour. That was said at the briefing on Monday.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 31, 2020)

Surely everyone knows that the requirement is to stay indoors except under specific exemptions. To do essential shopping etc including you can go out for exercise
Keeping in mind "do not  go out unnecessarily", this means walking from home, running from home or cycling from home.
It doesn't mean driving from home( either out of boredom or to go to a place for exercise)
Driving from home puts you outside, not exercising and at risk of coming into contact with others in a dangerous way. I.e. Accident.
It's a what if, but a justifiable one. If you weren't driving you cannot have an accident and you and ambulance, hospital A&E staff are not at risk from you and your injuries.
Do you think that the woman driving aimlessly was immediately arrested, or do you think she was told to go home and refused, more than once.?
I know which I would guess at.
Too many people playing lawyer - how can I interpret the rule to fit what I want to do and not enough of what is the safest thing to do ( or not do).


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

chellie said:



Does this help although it doesn't say on there about limiting exercise to an hour. That was said at the briefing on Monday.
		
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Anything in there about whether the police can enter a workplace to check proper distancing is being observed?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-11966028


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Ouch £1k is steep for the four of us. 😳
		
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Plus it's like an MOT, it's only good for the day it's done.  You could still catch it the next day.


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Surely everyone knows that the requirement is to stay indoors except under specific exemptions. To do essential shopping etc including you can go out for exercise
Keeping in mind "do not  go out unnecessarily", this means walking from home, running from home or cycling from home.
		
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Ok, so on Saturday I left the house to walk the dogs and get my 1 daily exercise. As I was going to pass through the village, I decided to buy some milk, bread and paracetamol (as I have a broken tooth that can't currently be fixed as the Dentists are shut). I think we'd all agree that these are essentials yes? 
Unfortunately, the shop was clean out of all 3, so whilst I was in there I picked up a nice bottle of Rioja for me, and some Ben and Jerry Phish Food for the kids. Not what anyone would call essential items I suppose..

Breaking the rules or not..


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

chellie said:



Does this help although it doesn't say on there about limiting exercise to an hour. That was said at the briefing on Monday.
		
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I (and many others) are abiding by those rules.. The issue at the moment is that people are misinterpreting (and sometimes just plain fabricating) all types of rules..

I've walked the dogs, or gone out for a run every day since the lockdown began. I've also been to work (as I can't work from home). Everyone I've seen has been staying a minimum of 6ft away at least. Everyone has been polite. There's been no negative reactions. This will change if the rules aren't clear.


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## garyinderry (Mar 31, 2020)

We were told to go to work if absolutely necessary.  The work many are doing is not necessary.  The management have deemed it essential. 

In countless cases the work cannot be done in a safe manner.  That is the main issue. 

I work in a lab at a factory and for the most part get to hide from the workforce. 4 out 5 lab are off. My manager wants me wrapped in cotton wool. Its the shop floor that is the issue and it's the same in many factories. 

This close contact makes a nonsense of social distancing practices by the general public. We have the potential to spread the virus to 100s of people. God only knows the damage what even bigger factories could do. 

We could do the right thing and shut for a few weeks to help the greater cause.


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## Orikoru (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, so on Saturday I left the house to walk the dogs and get my 1 daily exercise. As I was going to pass through the village, I decided to buy some milk, bread and paracetamol (as I have a broken tooth that can't currently be fixed as the Dentists are shut). I think we'd all agree that these are essentials yes?
Unfortunately, the shop was clean out of all 3, so whilst I was in there I picked up a nice bottle of Rioja for me, and some Ben and Jerry Phish Food for the kids. Not what anyone would call essential items I suppose..

Breaking the rules or not..
		
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The rules say 'shopping for essentials' - you went shopping for essentials. Irrespective of the fact you didn't find any.


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## Imurg (Mar 31, 2020)

If we're not allowed to shop for anything other than "essentials " then the shops need to to take non essentials off the shelves.
I think what they mean is essential shopping - food, cleaning, health etc rather than spending half a day wandering from shop to shop.
If I go to Tesco, Aldi or whichever and something is on the shelf I expect to be able to buy it.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But therein lies the problem. I haven’t seen anything stating that travelling to take exercise is against the “law”. It’s been advised against (and should be adhered to), but could you arrest/fine someone for it?

Also, this 1 hour limit I've seen mentioned on here. Is that actually true? Or is it something that people have invented? I genuinely don't know what the actual "real" rules are anymore. I thought I did. I've read several Government releases over the last few days. But there are new "rules" being mentioned daily.
		
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I think the travelling thing comes under essential journeys.  Is it essential you drive to a popular beauty spot/countryside/seaside to have a walk, and I think the consensus seems to be it isn't. 

With regards to the hour thing Gove said at the weekend _Well, obviously it depends on each individual’s fitness, but I would have thought that for most people a walk of up to an hour or a run of 30 minutes or a cycle ride, depending on their level of fitness is appropriate."  _And I kind of agree with him in that I'm not sure how many people before this regularly did over an hour of daily exercise, so he's saying to the public don't be a dick and use your common sense.  And if everyone decides that they want to do 4 hours of walking every day in crowded areas then I am sure the restrictions will be more strict. Most of my dog walks are an hour, I do one on Saturdays that lasts over 2 hours but I see very few people as I'm mostly in the fields (which I do not drive to) and I'll just continue doing that until further notice.


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## Slime (Mar 31, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Poor old RTH....
Now he's gone, he won't be here to find out that his concerns may have been right all along :
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ment-powers-following-criticism-lord-sumption
*I assume he said a naughty word*, as I only saw him offering an alternative point of view in his usual inimitable fashion....
		
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It was probably a blue variant of the word 'Oof' ..................................... his all time fave!


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## Slime (Mar 31, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Why not just suspend recycling until this emergency period is over,  uplift and dump everything in the same place at the same time .
We've done it for years and years, a few more months wont make that much difference.
Why are the local waste disposal centres closed, surely it's easy to keep safe distances there,
*you never see anyone anyway, unless you try to put something in the wrong skip*.

Click to expand...

Or you're about to unload some copper pipe!!


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## Wilson (Mar 31, 2020)

For those on Twitter, the Secret Barrister is worth a follow, some good explanations of what can be enforced, and what can't.


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Surely everyone knows that the requirement is to stay indoors except under specific exemptions. To do essential shopping etc including you can go out for exercise
Keeping in mind "do not  go out unnecessarily", this means walking from home, running from home or cycling from home.
It doesn't mean driving from home( either out of boredom or to go to a place for exercise)
Driving from home puts you outside, not exercising and at risk of coming into contact with others in a dangerous way. I.e. Accident.
It's a what if, but a justifiable one. If you weren't driving you cannot have an accident and you and ambulance, hospital A&E staff are not at risk from you and your injuries.
Do you think that the woman driving aimlessly was immediately arrested, or do you think she was told to go home and refused, more than once.?
I know which I would guess at.
Too many people playing lawyer - how can I interpret the rule to fit what I want to do and not enough of what is the safest thing to do ( or not do).
		
Click to expand...

I think this is a pretty good summation.  The problem is that people look for loopholes and excuses as to why the rules don't apply to them. 
I am working from home.  I walk my Father in Law around the house and garden so he can get some regular daily exercise.  My missus and I did a walk around the crescent and kept well away from the other couple we saw walking towards us.  We have been to the supermarket once but if we need anything my stepson can bring it to us when he does his essential shopping. 
Do I want to get out?  Of course. 
Is being stuck in getting to me?  Certainly!
Will I be looking to for excuses to get or buy things just so I can get out?  Absolutely not!
Why?  Because I have two "at risk" people in the house for one.  Secondly, the more I go out the more chance I have of catching it and not only infecting the people in the house but other people I come in contact with. 
It's not that difficult to understand.  It's about common sense and looking at the big picture for the good of all.  Some people are just plain selfish.


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

Wilson said:



			For those on Twitter, the Secret Barrister is worth a follow, some good explanations of what can be enforced, and what can't.
		
Click to expand...

If he's secret, how do you know he's a real barrister?


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-11966028

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The final sentence just leaves things open. "Policing by consent..." I could say you have my consent to stop everyone. And if anyone doesn't have a valid reason, fine 'em. Cuddly, cuddly chats don't work. How many us, especially going back a bit, were stopped for pushing it a bit in the car? A cuddly, cuddly word and we still just push the boundary a little, e.g. 75 on a motorway.

And if the ref says you're offside, you're offside. Its an attitude of mind. Foot stamping achieves nothing.

This morning I was out early, hoping to miss the potential roadblocks. Failed! The Police pulled me in a couple of km's north of the village, and then as a I came away from the town I was shopping in, it was the army. All very officious without being oppressive. A couple of weeks ago I would have said oppressive but you learn to live with it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			My understanding is that anyone who has had chemo is considered 'highly vulnerable' as their immune system is likely to be very weak. The wife of one of the guys at my work is 'group isolating' with fellow leukemia survivors in that category.
		
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Leukemia is indeed a high risk cancer and so yes the letter and advice to isolate absolutely applies. 

My wife is 3 yrs into the 'maintenance' phase post chemo/radio/operation for BC, and the guidance from the Breast Cancer experts (and she works with them) is that those at high risk are either _*in *_*chemo* - or in the *first 3 months post-chemo.*  What my wife's team is finding (from calls to the helpline from women such as her) is that the NHS has quite sensibly taken a very broad-brush approach to catch as many women as possible - so some women who are 7-8yrs+ post chemo have got the letter. 

The guidance being provided by BCN on an individual basis is that many women who got the letter have a risk not much higher - if higher at all - than the population risk.  The guidance in the letter is that women such as my wife should just check their individual risk with their specialist nurse; with their oncologist, or if way past end of treatment with such as Breast Cancer Now.

My point is that if my wife panics (as she did) on receipt of the letter, even knowing what she knows, then many who will have received the letter will also panic - and that is absolutely understandable.  But many getting the letter should be reassured to know of the approach the NHS has taken - and just check with their specialist support.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 31, 2020)

An idle musing ...

Anyone else think it's a bit fortunate that lockdown didnt come until after the better weather came? A month or two earlier and we'd all have drowned in the queues outside the supermarkets.

And spare a thought for all those who did get their homes flooded - and who now have to contend with lockdown on top of it.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, so on Saturday I left the house to walk the dogs and get my 1 daily exercise. As I was going to pass through the village, I decided to buy some milk, bread and paracetamol (as I have a broken tooth that can't currently be fixed as the Dentists are shut). I think we'd all agree that these are essentials yes?
Unfortunately, the shop was clean out of all 3, so whilst I was in there I picked up a nice bottle of Rioja for me, and some Ben and Jerry Phish Food for the kids. Not what anyone would call essential items I suppose..

Breaking the rules or not..
		
Click to expand...

Well, as the off licences are allowed to be open then the Rioja is obviously fine.  The Ben & Jerry's however is a bit dodgy...  

If you've gone out with the genuine intention of essentials then where's the harm, you were out anyway.  Has it had any further impact on the likely spread?  No more than if you'd picked up the essentials you'd gone out for IMO.  

Slightly different question; if off licences can remain open, why not garden centres?  They will suffer greatly at this time of year & the feel good factor of gardening is great for people's mental health and gets them some fresh air.  So what makes booze more important than plants (beyond the taxation levels, obviously)?


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## ferenezejohn (Mar 31, 2020)

We know you shouldn't commit murder, rape, robbery, and many other crimes, but they happen in abundance.
Anyone thinking we will get 100% to follow the restrictions in place is living in Cuckoo land.
Too many cretins don't know how to live and contribute to society, that's a fact of life.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like my wife has it. Had a persistent cough for 2 days now and her temperature is up. We don't have a huge house so very difficult for her to totally self-isolate but we're doing our best. She's not great but has no breathing difficulties at the moment so fingers crossed she doesn't get any worse.
		
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Hi ger - look after yourselves best as can do - take care, my prayers and all that ...


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## backwoodsman (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The final sentence just leaves things open. "Policing by consent..." I could say you have my consent to stop everyone. And if anyone doesn't have a valid reason, fine 'em. Cuddly, cuddly chats don't work. How many us, especially going back a bit, were stopped for pushing it a bit in the car? A cuddly, cuddly word and we still just push the boundary a little, e.g. 75 on a motorway.

And if the ref says you're offside, you're offside. Its an attitude of mind. Foot stamping achieves nothing.

This morning I was out early, hoping to miss the potential roadblocks. Failed! The Police pulled me in a couple of km's north of the village, and then as a I came away from the town I was shopping in, it was the army. All very officious without being oppressive. A couple of weeks ago I would have said oppressive but you learn to live with it
		
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Still stuck with Los Gallardos? Or can you now get to a decent shop?


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## Slime (Mar 31, 2020)

chellie said:



*Does this help* although it doesn't say on there about limiting exercise to an hour. That was said at the briefing on Monday.
		
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Yes it does, thanks Chellie.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Still stuck with Los Gallardos? Or can you now get to a decent shop?
		
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Vera Police and Traffico are saying its ok to travel to there. I went onto the motorway and off at the next junction, Valle Del Este, and was stopped at the roundabout just off the motorway. They were pulling everyone. Its less than a 15 min journey going the backway. Iceland and Dia are almost next to each other - sorted.

Police were pulling people at the Repsol garage just below the Pueblo yesterday, and saying shop locally not in Mojacar.


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

the news just said that the police use heavy handed tactics in using drones above a beauty spot.   unless they are reaper drones what is heavy handed about that?  said person needs to see the coverage in India.  police are full on beating people with bamboo sticks.


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## pendodave (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The final sentence just leaves things open. "Policing by consent..." I could say you have my consent to stop everyone. And if anyone doesn't have a valid reason, fine 'em. Cuddly, cuddly chats don't work. How many us, especially going back a bit, were stopped for pushing it a bit in the car? A cuddly, cuddly word and we still just push the boundary a little, e.g. 75 on a motorway.

And if the ref says you're offside, you're offside. Its an attitude of mind. Foot stamping achieves nothing.

This morning I was out early, hoping to miss the potential roadblocks. Failed! The Police pulled me in a couple of km's north of the village, and then as a I came away from the town I was shopping in, it was the army. All very officious without being oppressive. A couple of weeks ago I would have said oppressive but you learn to live with it
		
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The Spanish approach is much more draconian than many other European countries, but is there any evidence that it's more successful?
Until we're sure it is, I'd rather that the police were not chasing people around every time Michael Gove makes something up in a press conference because he's out of his depth.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			The rules say 'shopping for essentials' - you went shopping for essentials. Irrespective of the fact you didn't find any. 

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We've got some food (not a vast amount) in our freezer.  Is shopping for anything then essential?  You could say it isn't. 

However me and Mrs Hogie will likely go for a walk this evening (of one hour or less) and on our way back we'll go through town and pick up a couple of bits and pieces from a store. It will be very quiet - almost deserted.  We are fortunate as we can walk from our house straight into parkland/countryside in about 3 minutes and the vast majority of folks out (few and far between the time we walk) adhere well to the 2m rule.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The Spanish approach is much more draconian than many other European countries, but is there any evidence that it's more successful?
Until we're sure it is, I'd rather that the police were not chasing people around every time Michael Gove makes something up in a press conference because he's out of his depth.
		
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Playing Devil's Advocate, would you rather err on the side of caution, Spanish style, or catch it? How do you find out you're sure? When the infected and death rates are through the roof?

Bars and restaurants are closed, same as the UK. Essential journeys only, same as the UK. The differences, from what I can see, are only one person goes out shopping and no hour out for exercise. Is it that hard to do 30 mins in front of a YouTube vid jumping up and down?


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The differences, from what I can see, are only one person goes out shopping and no hour out for exercise. Is it that hard to do 30 mins in front of a YouTube vid jumping up and down?
		
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No, it's not. But that isn't the rule. I think that the rules need to be made ultra clear, then enforced by the Police. What we don't need is people interpreting the rules differently and then the same rules being enforced differently by the Authorities.. It really isn't helping matters at all..


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

Mayor of Washington DC; break the lockdown and you face the possibility of a $5,000 fine and 90 days in jail.

How many times have we seen posts on here about all sort of things say the UK is too soft ------------- right until its impacting on people, and we now hear people saying its too harsh?


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mayor of Washington DC; break the lockdown and you face the possibility of a $5,000 fine and 90 days in jail.

How many times have we seen posts on here about all sort of things say the UK is too soft ------------- right until its impacting on people, and we now hear people saying its too harsh?
		
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I'm not saying it's too harsh.. I'm saying it's not a rule.. Toughen up the rules, then enforce them. But don't enforce made up rules just because you want to.


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## Wilson (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, so on Saturday I left the house to walk the dogs and get my 1 daily exercise. As I was going to pass through the village, I decided to buy some milk, bread and paracetamol (as I have a broken tooth that can't currently be fixed as the Dentists are shut). I think we'd all agree that these are essentials yes?
Unfortunately, the shop was clean out of all 3, so whilst I was in there I picked up a nice bottle of Rioja for me, and some Ben and Jerry Phish Food for the kids. Not what anyone would call essential items I suppose..

Breaking the rules or not..
		
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No, there isn't anything in the legislation that defines what is essential, hence why they've had to step back from the whole stop selling Easter Eggs etc.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			No, it's not. But that isn't the rule. I think that the rules need to be made ultra clear, then enforced by the Police. What we don't need is people interpreting the rules differently and then the same rules being enforced differently by the Authorities.. It really isn't helping matters at all..
		
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We're getting the same. Police in Mojacar are saying shop in the village. Police in the village are saying shop in the village. Police in the next town, Vera, are saying its ok to shop there.

We have the added confusion that Spain is made up of semi-autonomous regions. Huelva over near the Portuguese border is even harsher. And many areas have different levels of fines. Simple answer, just do as you're told.


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

Am I the only one who, when they see the police stopping people who are out unnecessarily, or the when they showed drones of people driving to the likes of the Peak District for a walk thought "prats!"? (I did put a worse word there but edited it).   I didn't think the police were being over zealous.  I thought the people in question were being selfish and inconsiderate.  I think they should be named and shamed. 
It's like the walker who gave @patricks148 abuse or the farmer who got beaten up by a walker who shouldn't have been there.  Some people think they're above the law and then get angry if they're challenged on it.  Or plead human rights, or over-policing. 
Every one of those selfish idiots is putting someones loved one, or even their own, at risk.  But they don't care, or won't till it impacts on them.
If I was being really extreme, I'd say put these selfish people in a building to fend for themselves with no medical assistance and then see how they get on.  But of course I wouldn't say that.


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## pendodave (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Playing Devil's Advocate, would you rather err on the side of caution, Spanish style, or catch it? How do you find out you're sure? When the infected and death rates are through the roof?

Bars and restaurants are closed, same as the UK. Essential journeys only, same as the UK. The differences, from what I can see, are only one person goes out shopping and no hour out for exercise. Is it that hard to do 30 mins in front of a YouTube vid jumping up and down?
		
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As you say, similar enough. Whatever you read, I think British people are doing their bit. But without turning into a police state. I just find the desire to live under martial law for no obvious additional benefit and to wish it on  everyone else is not for me.


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## Beezerk (Mar 31, 2020)

The local woods where I take my MTB have announced they are closing the car park and the police will be patrolling. Recently it has been very busy with families and dog walkers who don't appear to be from the area, you could see some groups were quite obviously taking the pi$$. I messaged the trust who look after the woods and they says it's fine for people who live locally to still go there on foot and bicycle 🍾


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			If we're not allowed to shop for anything other than "essentials " then the shops need to to take non essentials off the shelves.
I think what they mean is essential shopping - food, cleaning, health etc rather than spending half a day wandering from shop to shop.
If I go to Tesco, Aldi or whichever and something is on the shelf I expect to be able to buy it.
		
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True.. but given your current condition should you be going anywhere? 
And have you had any improvement?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			True.. but given your current condition should you be going anywhere?
And have you had any improvement?
		
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Hes not going anywhere, I'm on food parcel duty......well Milk & bread, I think Mrs Imurg is allowed out on Wednesday, so she can stock up then


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

What ever rules/Laws they wish to bring in, it has to be clear to everyone, no ambiguity, the Sky report last night stated the Police measures were a 20 minute e-learning package or a quick brief.

We have to look after the Police as well or they’ll end up the bad guys whilst the idiots look to abuse the boundaries.

99% will always use common sense, but we as a Nation like to highlight the minority.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think the travelling thing comes under essential journeys.  Is it essential you drive to a popular beauty spot/countryside/seaside to have a walk, and I think the consensus seems to be it isn't.

With regards to the hour thing Gove said at the weekend _Well, obviously it depends on each individual’s fitness, but I would have thought that for most people a walk of up to an hour or a run of 30 minutes or a cycle ride, depending on their level of fitness is appropriate."  _And I kind of agree with him in that I'm not sure how many people before this regularly did over an hour of daily exercise, so he's saying to the public don't be a dick and use your common sense.  And if everyone decides that they want to do 4 hours of walking every day in crowded areas then I am sure the restrictions will be more strict. Most of my dog walks are an hour, I do one on Saturdays that lasts over 2 hours but I see very few people as I'm mostly in the fields (which I do not drive to) and I'll just continue doing that until further notice.
		
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Agreed, but recent history suggests common sense is not in abundance.. we would never have had all these people going out if it were.
Subtlety is not the order of the day.. be blunt, be clear and don’t give opportunity for interpretation. 
So in that regard is a politician a good candidate to pass on a message ?


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## Imurg (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			True.. but given your current condition should you be going anywhere?
And have you had any improvement?
		
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Ha!
Stopped work 3 weeks ago to try and protect the Mrs who works in SCBU at Stoke.
I've barely left the house since..2 rounds and a couple of shopping tripsbefore lockdown and into the garden to put the bins out for the last week - 14 day isolation coz she picked it up ( the plan worked then)
I picked it up last Thursday/Friday so, again, only been in the garden and even then not much.
Unless it's the calm before the storm I'm happy to report that It came, I saw and I kicked its butt!
Apart from tiredness caused by lack of sleep I feel about as normal as usual.
The Mrs seems to be slowly on the mend so everything is cool and groovy.
Assuming no temperature on friday morning, and I haven't had one at all, I can resume doing nothing....


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

pendodave said:



			As you say, similar enough. Whatever you read, I think British people are doing their bit. But without turning into a police state. I just find the desire to live under martial law for no obvious additional benefit and to wish it on  everyone else is not for me.
		
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I don't think anyone wants to live under martial law, and it isn't martial law in Spain. There isn't a huge difference in the laws, just how they're being enforced. As Bluewolf says, take the ambiguity out of it.


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## pendodave (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Agreed, but recent history suggests common sense is not in abundance.. we would never have had all these people going out if it were.
Subtlety is not the order of the day.. be blunt, be clear and don’t give opportunity for interpretation.
So in that regard is a politician a good candidate to pass on a message ?
		
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The raw numbers of travellers on road and rail suggests that common sense IS in abundance. Media organisations hyping every transgression for clicks is not the same as actual statistical evidence. 
My own (anecdotal, not data driven) impression from briefings is that the invited guests pass on useful information and advice, while many of the politicians pass on mixed, confusing and downright inaccurate info.


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The raw numbers of travellers on road and rail suggests that common sense IS in abundance. Media organisations hyping every transgression for clicks is not the same as actual statistical evidence.
My own (anecdotal, not data driven) impression from briefings is that the invited guests pass on useful information and advice, while many of the politicians pass on mixed, confusing and downright inaccurate info.
		
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nothing the government had said to me has been confusing. in fact, it couldn't be simpler.   confusion comes when people take that info and try to crowbar their agenda into it


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## Imurg (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think anyone wants to live under martial law, and it isn't martial law in Spain. There isn't a huge difference in the laws, just how they're being enforced. As Bluewolf says, take the ambiguity out of it.
		
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The downside with that is, to satisfy those who are looking for any loophole they can, the rules will need to be scrutinised by the R&A for completeness and combined with a book the size of the Encyclopedia Britannia of Decisions......


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## patricks148 (Mar 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			The local woods where I take my MTB have announced they are closing the car park and the police will be patrolling. Recently it has been very busy with families and dog walkers who don't appear to be from the area, you could see some groups were quite obviously taking the pi$$. I messaged the trust who look after the woods and they says it's fine for people who live locally to still go there on foot and bicycle 🍾
		
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All the car parks for Woods owned by the Forestry Com are closed, but its not stopped people parking all over the place, blocking access in many cases. i use the canal a lot to walk the dog or take him out on the bike (me not him) and the number of cars blocking the access is astounding most days


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

pendodave said:



			The raw numbers of travellers on road and rail suggests that common sense IS in abundance. Media organisations hyping every transgression for clicks is not the same as actual statistical evidence.
My own (anecdotal, not data driven) impression from briefings is that the invited guests pass on useful information and advice, while many of the politicians pass on mixed, confusing and downright inaccurate info.
		
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I think your right we are now seeing some common sense being applied .. but last week it was a bit thin on the ground unlike the walkers.
The media are hyping, if we could just have some sensible fact reporting it might defuse some of the tension.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think anyone wants to live under martial law, and it isn't martial law in Spain. There isn't a huge difference in the laws, just how they're being enforced. As Bluewolf says, take the ambiguity out of it.
		
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Why is Spain so badly hit?

I've just read another 849 deaths yesterday.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			All the car parks for Woods owned by the Forestry Com are closed, but its not stopped people parking all over the place, blocking access in many cases. i use the canal a lot to walk the dog or take him out on the bike (me not him) and the number of cars blocking the access is astounding most days
		
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Sorry but I giggled. You use the canal to walk the dog… thought only Jesus could walk on water. Childish I know but it tickled me.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Ha!
Stopped work 3 weeks ago to try and protect the Mrs who works in SCBU at Stoke.
I've barely left the house since..2 rounds and a couple of shopping tripsbefore lockdown and into the garden to put the bins out for the last week - 14 day isolation coz she picked it up ( the plan worked then)
I picked it up last Thursday/Friday so, again, only been in the garden and even then not much.
Unless it's the calm before the storm I'm happy to report that It came, I saw and I kicked its butt!
Apart from tiredness caused by lack of sleep I feel about as normal as usual.
The Mrs seems to be slowly on the mend so everything is cool and groovy.
Assuming no temperature on friday morning, and I haven't had one at all, I can resume doing nothing....

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Sounds positive! 
Did you lose your sense of taste and smell?


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

hovis said:



			nothing the government had said to me has been confusing. in fact, it couldn't be simpler.   confusion comes when people take that info and try to crowbar their agenda into it
		
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Nothing that's been released officially is confusing to me either, yet we still have people complaining that Factories are open who aren't "Essential". We still have people complaining that someone has spent more than an hour walking the dog. We still have Police issuing summons for buying Easter eggs (Warrington Police). The rules are abundantly clear, but they are also far too vague (if you get my drift).


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Why is Spain so badly hit?

I've just read another 849 deaths yesterday.
		
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News last night suggested it had got into the care homes... and an Italian mate was telling me it was the older community in the villages that were being hit in Italy..
But that still doesn’t account for the young who were considered to be strong and have a healthy immune system.
I also read and heard a theory that it’s the level of exposure as well .. but all is just speculation.


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## pendodave (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I think your right we are now seeing some common sense being applied .. but last week it was a bit thin on the ground unlike the walkers.
The media are hyping, if we could just have some sensible fact reporting it might defuse some of the tension.
		
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I agree.  And there's no doubt that we, the general public, did not get of to a great start! 
But I think we've got better. And whatever it seems, I'm not running around in the open citing my civil rights, I'm just concerned that going in too hard will be counter productive, and that wanton authoritarianism will have future unwelcome consequences.


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## pendodave (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Nothing that's been released officially is confusing to me either, yet we still have people complaining that Factories are open who aren't "Essential". We still have people complaining that someone has spent more than an hour walking the dog. We still have Police issuing summons for buying Easter eggs (Warrington Police). The rules are abundantly clear, but they are also far too vague (if you get my drift).
		
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Don't remember the Gove children visiting two parents nonsense?

** edit ** this comes across as a bit arsey. And probably isn't quite what you were referring to.  Apologies


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## User62651 (Mar 31, 2020)

Wanting to talk to bank about a mortgage holiday - online banking says you have to phone, trouble is they will not answer the phone, tried multiple times. Should i just stop my direct debit?- bet I'd get a phone call back in 5 minutes if I did that!

Just get the feeling they are avoiding hoping people will give up trying ot get in touch.

Might have to go to branch and enquire even though I'm suppoosed to be self isolating.


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## Imurg (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Sounds positive!
Did you lose your sense of taste and smell?
		
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Not at all
Only symptoms I had were the cough and the tight chest plus a headache and tickly throat


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Nothing that's been released officially is confusing to me either, yet we still have people complaining that Factories are open who aren't "Essential". We still have people complaining that someone has spent more than an hour walking the dog. We still have Police issuing summons for buying Easter eggs (Warrington Police). The rules are abundantly clear, but they are also far too vague (if you get my drift).
		
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yes, I understand.   rules like this would take years to put in place and iron out but we ask our police to manage within a few days.  I was actually sat with the police when they found out on the TV that things where being locked down.  in the meantime I see that we have no choice but to allow the police to use their discretion.  some will get it wrong and some will get it right.    that's just tough luck.   if someone thinks it's OK to go shopping for Easter eggs then they should expect a fine.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Why is Spain so badly hit?

I've just read another 849 deaths yesterday.
		
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Italy is being blamed. 

There was a Champion's League game in Bergamo. The mayor of Bergamo was incredulous calling it a "bomb waiting to go off."

The infection growth rate is slowing but the death rate is still rising exponentially. Roughly, the death rate runs around a week behind the infection rate.

God knows how long this is going to go on for? When you look at what the numbers were when the lockdown was imposed compared to what they are now, I wonder what they need to be before the lockdown is lifted. We're a week and a half away from when the current lockdown expires, and legally it can't be extended more than 2 weeks at a time, I can't see it being lifted before the 26th April at the earliest.


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## Imurg (Mar 31, 2020)

hovis said:



			yes, I understand.   rules like this would take years to put in place and iron out but we ask our police to manage within a few days.  I was actually sat with the police when they found out on the TV that things where being locked down.  in the meantime I see that we have no choice but to allow the police to use their discretion.  some will get it wrong and some will get it right.    that's just tough luck.   if someone thinks it's OK to go shopping for Easter eggs then they should expect a fine.
		
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Should the shops expect a fine for selling Easter eggs?


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

hovis said:



			yes, I understand.   rules like this would take years to put in place and iron out but we ask our police to manage within a few days.  I was actually sat with the police when they found out on the TV that things where being locked down.  in the meantime I see that we have no choice but to allow the police to use their discretion.  some will get it wrong and some will get it right.    that's just tough luck.   if someone thinks it's OK to go shopping for Easter eggs then they should expect a fine.
		
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Good luck enforcing that one through the courts.

I agree that the Police are in an incredibly difficult position. However, it would be made easier if Politicians didn't keep fudging it.. And yes, some people are taking the pish as well, and they should be arrested/fined/beheaded etc. But the Police have been put in an impossible position by the Governments half-hearted measures.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			News last night suggested it had got into the care homes... and an Italian mate was telling me it was the older community in the villages that were being hit in Italy..
But that still doesn’t account for the young who were considered to be strong and have a healthy immune system.
I also read and heard a theory that it’s the level of exposure as well .. but all is just speculation.
		
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I read an article about exposure levels - can't remember what the publication was nor the techno speak but there was an analogy in it that made it sound simple. If you're stood in 2 inches of water you won't drown, but if you're dropped in the middle of the Atlantic you will drown. 

If your body only gets hit with one droplet it might fight it easily but if your get smothered in a good sneeze it will be harder to fight.


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Should the shops expect a fine for selling Easter eggs?
		
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you make a very good point.  the same as i see fish and chip shops are open and the Indian next door too but for takeaways only.    I went out this morning for my neighbours shopping at the local shop. they had absolutely nothing on the list.  I left with a can of redbull for myself. had a policeman been stood outside I think I would have been fined.   looking back, what was I thinking!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

hovis said:



			nothing the government had said to me has been confusing. in fact, it couldn't be simpler.   confusion comes when people take that info and try to crowbar their agenda into it
		
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_Put your ball on the tee and don't touch it again until you pick it out of the hole._ 

Now that is all we are actually being asked to do in respect of isolation in a coronavirus epidemic,  but so many find all sorts of scenarios that make the straightforward advice inapplicable to them - complicated, ambiguous and confusing.

_Put the ball on the tee and don't touch it again until you pick it out of the hole_.  We all understand that 100%. That is all we are being asked to do.


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## DRW (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I read an article about exposure levels - can't remember what the publication was nor the techno speak but there was an analogy in it that made it sound simple. If you're stood in 2 inches of water you won't drown, but if you're dropped in the middle of the Atlantic you will drown.

If your body only gets hit with one droplet it might fight it easily but if your get smothered in a good sneeze it will be harder to fight.
		
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Spent a whole lockdown evening reading about Viral loading. Loads on google and science based website about it.

A link here if anyone wishes to read a bit about it :-

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-questions-about-covid-19-and-viral-load/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I read an article about exposure levels - can't remember what the publication was nor the techno speak but there was an analogy in it that made it sound simple. _*If you're stood in 2 inches of water you won't drown,*_ but if you're dropped in the middle of the Atlantic you will drown.

If your body only gets hit with one droplet it might fight it easily but if your get smothered in a good sneeze it will be harder to fight.
		
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Unless that is you fall face down and can't get up (our elderly mostly). We can get drowned in 2" of water...which rather strengthens your point.


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## larmen (Mar 31, 2020)

Isn’t that effectively what vaccinations are? Getting hit with the tiniest amount possible so you get antibodies, but they overwhelm the infection immediately?


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

larmen said:



			Isn’t that effectively what vaccinations are? Getting hit with the tiniest amount possible so you get antibodies, but they overwhelm the infection immediately?
		
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I'm not a doctor but I believe they give you a decent dose but with a dead virus


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Why is Spain so badly hit?

I've just read another 849 deaths yesterday.
		
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I read something somewhere that the BCG injection which we used to get might provide some level of protection.  Apparently this was much less given in Spain and Italy and there was a suspicion that this might have some bearing on the levels of fatalities.  If I find the link I'll post it up.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unless that is you fall face down and can't get up (our elderly mostly). We can get drowned in 2" of water...which rather strengthens your point.
		
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Hair for the splitting of... really Hugh, that pedantic?

My post says if you're *stood* in 2 inches of water you won't drown. Seems pretty straightforward don't you think?


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## DRW (Mar 31, 2020)

hovis said:



			I'm not a doctor but I believe they give you a decent dose but with a dead virus
		
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I reckon you should be renamed on the forum to Dr Death. 

Sorry it gave a right old chuckle to me/wife, can we pass on your offer of a vaccination at your clinic with a decent dose of the deadly virus. 

Thanks for the laugh, always good to laugh. Thanks. (ps my post is a light hearted post btw, and certainly not anything else and sometimes as you say the dead virus is used)

Some info here about vaccines:-

https://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/vaccines-work/


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Good luck enforcing that one through the courts.

I agree that the Police are in an incredibly difficult position. However, it would be made easier if Politicians didn't keep fudging it.. And yes, some people are taking the pish as well, and they should be arrested/fined/beheaded etc. But the Police have been put in an impossible position by the Governments half-hearted measures.
		
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Laws are in place therefore enforcing it in courts shouldn't be a problem if the courts have the balls to follow through on the laws they created.

Powers were brought in to help the NHS and the public health.

People flaunt them, get caught and blame the police. Absolutely pathetic. 

Give people who are caught a set of scrubs and a face mask and tell them to work 3 days in their local hospital and see how much they are moaning about their human rights after that. Might curb their selfishness.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			The local woods where I take my MTB have announced they are closing the car park and the police will be patrolling. Recently it has been very busy with families and dog walkers who don't appear to be from the area, you could see some groups were quite obviously taking the pi$$. I messaged the trust who look after the woods and they says it's fine for people who live locally to still go there on foot and bicycle 🍾
		
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Just back from my daily allowance in the local woods... Very few folk about... Much less than last week... Car parks to local beauty spot (Lido) had three cars in the area for Boro' residents with a further five in the outer car park for non-residents... 

And, no (for those interested) I didn't drive, two mins walk for me to gain access...

And, @Orikoru walk took me to Haste Hill... Greens, tee boxes look to have been recently cut... Bunkers could do with a good raking... Nothing new there😉...


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Laws are in place therefore enforcing it in courts shouldn't be a problem if the courts have the balls to follow through on the laws they created.

Powers were brought in to help the NHS and the public health.

People flaunt them, get caught and blame the police. Absolutely pathetic.

Give people who are caught a set of scrubs and a face mask and tell them to work 3 days in their local hospital and see how much they are moaning about their human rights after that. Might curb their selfishness.
		
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I'm not sure that my Mrs wants a load of untrained civvies helping her on the front line, but I'll pass on your idea and let you know when she stops laughing...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Laws are in place therefore enforcing it in courts shouldn't be a problem if the courts have the balls to follow through on the laws they created.

Powers were brought in to help the NHS and the public health.

People flaunt them, get caught and blame the police. Absolutely pathetic.

Give people who are caught a set of scrubs and a face mask and tell them to work 3 days in their local hospital and see how much they are moaning about their human rights after that. Might curb their selfishness.
		
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You are missing the point some what! They don’t want people summoned to court and given a criminal record for these offences!

How many more are you going to risk and force in to making unnecessary journeys for Court appearances etc!


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I agree.  And there's no doubt that we, the general public, did not get of to a great start!
But I think we've got better. And whatever it seems, I'm not running around in the open citing my civil rights, I'm just concerned that going in too hard will be counter productive, and that wanton authoritarianism will have future unwelcome consequences.
		
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To be fair, the people in Spain didn't get off to a great start either. We got 48 hrs notice, which also included some mixed messages. Some places closed on the Friday afternoon, some on the Saturday and 99.99% on the Sunday. A significant number of people partied like the end of the world was coming on the Saturday. We also got the gentle chats in the first few days of lockdown, with things becoming more stringently enforced over time.

There was the odd over zealous police officer, thinking of that police sergeant in London that fined the bakery for putting lines on the pavement, and we're still getting conflicting messages, e.g. which town we can travel to shop in. 

All it needs is the application of common sense. We all know what a necessary journey is. We all know what social distancing is.  And if we pinned down the people that push it, if they were honest, they know what the answers are too.


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## Beezerk (Mar 31, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			All the car parks for Woods owned by the Forestry Com are closed, but its not stopped people parking all over the place, blocking access in many cases. i use the canal a lot to walk the dog or take him out on the bike (me not him) and the number of cars blocking the access is astounding most days
		
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I'm guessing they will have a police car either permanently stationed or doing regular trips to the car park. There are private houses on the road to the car park and past it in the woods themselves. I'm hoping to get down later to see how they are handling it.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You are missing the point some what! They don’t want people summoned to court and given a criminal record for these offences!

How many more are you going to risk and force in to making unnecessary journeys for Court appearances etc!
		
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Who goes to court for a speeding offence? Issue a fixed penalty notice with a pay within 7 days discount - its what's happening here.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Who goes to court for a speeding offence? Issue a fixed penalty notice with a pay within 7 days discount - its what's happening here.
		
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Jacko suggested Court Bri, I was pointing out what a waste of time that is, by all means fine people, but again it comes back to giving the Police clear guidance and support.
Look at what Hovis said about the way the Coppers sat with him found out.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You are missing the point some what! They don’t want people summoned to court and given a criminal record for these offences!

How many more are you going to risk and force in to making unnecessary journeys for Court appearances etc!
		
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Can be summoned at a later date.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

People should also remember the Police have suffered cut backs for years under successive Governments, they are now being asked to take on more and more tasks.

Until the Forces are mobilised to take on some of this burden we should take a step back and give the Coppers the support they deserve.


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Jacko suggested Court Bri, I was pointing out what a waste of time that is, by all means fine people, but again it comes back to giving the Police clear guidance and support.
Look at what Hovis said about the way the Coppers sat with him found out.
		
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Its a tough, fast changing, dynamic situation. Sometimes not every 't' is crossed at exactly the right angle. People looking for wriggle room instead of accepting something that isn't quite perfect aren't doing anyone any favours.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Can be summoned at a later date.
		
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To waste more time on our already over stretched Police!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough, fast changing, dynamic situation. Sometimes not every 't' is crossed at exactly the right angle. People looking for wriggle room instead of accepting something that isn't quite perfect aren't doing anyone any favours.
		
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Fully agree, sadly the minority are the issue. And not just in this Country!


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			People should also remember the Police have suffered cut backs for years under successive Governments, they are now being asked to take on more and more tasks.

Until the Forces are mobilised to take on some of this burden we should take a step back and give the Coppers the support they deserve.
		
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With brass knobs on!!

Whilst the police are dealing with petty little idiots they're not doing the more important things.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			To waste more time on our already over stretched Police!
		
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As Hobbit says it's initially and £60 if they don't pay it goes to court at a later date. That is not changing from the current court set up for speeding/disorder charges so I don't understand your anti court stance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

On a more positive note, out shopping for the first time in 10 days this morning, got what we needed, fellow shoppers playing the game with respect to social distancing and the streets and roads like a ghost town.


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## Slab (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			To be fair, the people in Spain didn't get off to a great start either. _*We got 48 hrs notice, *_which also included some mixed messages. Some places closed on the Friday afternoon, some on the Saturday and 99.99% on the Sunday. A significant number of people partied like the end of the world was coming on the Saturday. We also got the gentle chats in the first few days of lockdown, with things becoming more stringently enforced over time.

There was the odd over zealous police officer, thinking of that police sergeant in London that fined the bakery for putting lines on the pavement, and we're still getting conflicting messages, e.g. which town we can travel to shop in.

All it needs is the application of common sense. We all know what a necessary journey is. We all know what social distancing is.  And if we pinned down the people that push it, if they were honest, they know what the answers are too.
		
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Life of Brian style : 48hrs notice! oh what I wouldn't give for 48 hours notice!


(initial lockdown was announced with no deaths and a single figure case count.. at 10pm to take effect at 6am next morning, just 8 hours overnight for _every _non essential business to shut)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			As Hobbit says it's initially and £60 if they don't pay it goes to court at a later date. That is not changing from the current court set up for speeding/disorder charges so I don't understand your anti court stance.
		
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Jacko, read the news mate, people summoned to Court yesterday in the North West, Government ministers and high up Coppers answering questions about it and then Police being told to use common sense!

I am 100% behind the police, just hate the fact they are trying to do some jobs with one hand tied behind their backs!

Those people summoned to Court will also have the Copper in attendance, more wasted time sat in Court!


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			People should also remember the Police have suffered cut backs for years under successive Governments, they are now being asked to take on more and more tasks.

Until the Forces are mobilised to take on some of this burden we should take a step back and give the Coppers the support they deserve.
		
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Our friends in their Red Hats are assisting the police outside of the Cattrick Garrison,  didnt realise their jurisdiction had been extended.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Jacko, read the news mate, people summoned to Court yesterday in the North West, Government ministers and high up Coppers answering questions about it and then Police being told to use common sense!

I am 100% behind the police, just hate the fact they are trying to do some jobs with one hand tied behind their backs!

Those people summoned to Court will also have the Copper in attendance, more wasted time sat in Court!
		
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It's not a waste of time if the Police are upholding the laws that they were given to enforce idiots stay off the streets. I'd suggest that they've been successful in detecting a crime for which the offender's have rightly been punished for.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

Chief Constable of Derbyshire just been on Jeremy Vine and came across very well IMO.  Interesting that one of the actions undertaken & attributed to the Corona Virus has apparently been going on for a number of years at this time for a completely different reason.  Still, never let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to slag off the Old Bill.


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## huds1475 (Mar 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_Put your ball on the tee and don't touch it again until you pick it out of the hole._

Now that is all we are actually being asked to do in respect of isolation in a coronavirus epidemic,  but so many find all sorts of scenarios that make the straightforward advice inapplicable to them - complicated, ambiguous and confusing.

_Put the ball on the tee and don't touch it again until you pick it out of the hole_.  We all understand that 100%. That is all we are being asked to do.
		
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So I'm allowed to go out wherever I like, as long as I don't touch my balls??


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			With brass knobs on!!

Whilst the police are dealing with petty little idiots they're not doing the more important things.
		
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yeh, one of them done me for £5 on a game of table tennis last week.  them boys know how to spin a backhand 😜


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			It's not a waste of time if the Police are upholding the laws that they were given to enforce idiots stay off the streets. I'd suggest that they've been successful in detecting a crime for which the offender's have rightly been punished for.
		
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I think you’re getting mixed up with what a “crime” actually is!


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## User20205 (Mar 31, 2020)

I’ve just been out for my state allocated 1 hr exercise. I’m sorry to say, at the local beauty spot i rode through I saw a family with 3 young children. Out together. I obviously have reported them to the appropriate authority!!! I’m also sorry to report that my exercise time was 1hr & 10 minutes, I have reported myself and await the appropriate sanction!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Hair for the splitting of... really Hugh, that pedantic?

My post says if you're *stood* in 2 inches of water you won't drown. Seems pretty straightforward don't you think?
		
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I'm actually agreeing with you and reinforcing the point you made for the elderly...who often can't stay upright that easy...


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You are missing the point some what! They don’t want people summoned to court and given a criminal record for these offences!

How many more are you going to risk and force in to making unnecessary journeys for Court appearances etc!
		
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Simple answer.  *Don't go out and make stupid and unnecessary journeys!*


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## Beezerk (Mar 31, 2020)

Unbelievable, the Facebook page where it was announced the car park for the woods will be closing now has people arguing their case whey they should still be allowed to drive there and exercise. 
Honestly


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## GB72 (Mar 31, 2020)

On a small scale, I have a little sympathy. I live in the country, I can walk out of my front door and walk for miles in near perfect isolation even without the lockdown. Not sure how I would feel if I did not have that available to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Simple answer.  *Don't go out and make stupid and unnecessary journeys!*

Click to expand...

If only it was that clear to everyone!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Unbelievable, the Facebook page where it was announced the car park for the woods will be closing now has people arguing their case whey they should still be allowed to drive there and exercise.
Honestly 

Click to expand...

I'm on a local FB page for town where I live and also for where I work. For all the guff spouted there is occasionally some good posts about things happening, recommendations etc. I am largely staying off them right now as the utter stupidity being posted is just bad for my health. I would just read them and get annoyed so I am staying off them and reducing my blood pressure. Exatcly the sort of thing you are posting about.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2020)

GB72 said:



			On a small scale, I have a little sympathy. I live in the country, I can walk out of my front door and walk for miles in near perfect isolation even without the lockdown. Not sure how I would feel if I did not have that available to me.
		
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That is all part of the city v town v country decision about where to live. There are pluses and minuses to all options. Right now it is better to be in a rural area but being in a city has other benefits at other times. Swings and roundabouts.


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I think you’re getting mixed up with what a “crime” actually is!
		
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I think you don't understand what powers Police have been granted and passed as law of the land.


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## Slab (Mar 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is all part of the city v town v country decision about where to live. There are pluses and minuses to all options. Right now it is better to be in a rural area but being in a city has other benefits at other times. Swings and roundabouts.
		
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Sorry but these swings and roundabouts you mention, are they in the city's or rural areas?


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I think you’re getting mixed up with what a “crime” actually is!
		
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I think you don't understand what powers Police have been granted and passed as law of the land.


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is all part of the city v town v country decision about where to live. There are pluses and minuses to all options. Right now it is better to be in a rural area but being in a city has other benefits at other times. Swings and roundabouts.
		
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Roundabouts aren't one of them


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is all part of the city v town v country decision about where to live. There are pluses and minuses to all options. Right now it is better to be in a rural area but being in a city has other benefits at other times. Swings and roundabouts.
		
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Believe that is where I am fortunate... I am very adjacent to many many acres of woodland and meadows... Yet, can access in a few minutes, public transport links to get me into the centre of one of the worlds great cities in well under an hour...


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## Papas1982 (Mar 31, 2020)

Turns out furlough is gonna kick us (me n missus) in the ass.

Hadn’t realised you needed to be on company pay roll since feb 28th. So despite the missus having worked full time since she left uni. Her 1 week between redundancy and new job means she’s not eligible.

She has contacted her new employer to see if they’ll pay her 80% but not convinced atm


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Will be interesting to hear what Dr Phillip Lee says on Shelagh Fogarty (LBC) after 1pm about the 2016 pandemic test that the UK failed disastrously - but that for which the outcome was deemed too sensitive to be released - and about which it seems that the government did nothing.  Seems he was close to the test when it was done.  Everything the test warned would happen has happened.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			Sorry but these swings and roundabouts you mention, are they in the city's or rural areas?
		
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All the swings and roundabouts, in these parts, have been fenced off...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I think you don't understand what powers Police have been granted and passed as law of the land.
		
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They don’t know themselves! So how you can claim you do is beyond me.


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2020)




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## Hacker Khan (Mar 31, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe that is where I am fortunate... I am very adjacent to many many acres of woodland and meadows... Yet, can access in a few minutes, public transport links to get me into the *centre of one of the worlds great cities in well under an hour.*..
		
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Stockton?


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## rudebhoy (Mar 31, 2020)

missus was talking to one of her mates last night.

her mate was telling her that her parents (both in their 70s/80s) come to hers for Sunday dinner every week. She told them last week they wouldn't be able to come round for the time being. They turned up this Sunday as usual. when she opened the door to tell them they couldn't come in , they barged past her saying 'don't be so silly". She eventually got them out the house after about 10 minutes arguing with them.

They are also going mad with her because she has cancelled her 18yo's birthday party next week. They told her she should just go ahead with it because "no-one will know" ....


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

Listening to Jeremy Vine & some of the things that are supposed to protect us against Corona Virus that have been circulated via the internet simply beggar belief.  Even if we get past this I have concerns for the human race, particularly those prepared to come onto national radio live & advertise their own stupidity.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Jacko, read the news mate, people summoned to Court yesterday in the North West, Government ministers and high up Coppers answering questions about it and then Police being told to use common sense!

I am 100% behind the police, just hate the fact they are trying to do some jobs with one hand tied behind their backs!

Those people summoned to Court will also have the Copper in attendance, more wasted time sat in Court!
		
Click to expand...

I'm finding it difficult to see what your point is regarding Jacko saying about the Courts. IIRC he was responding to a post which said "see if that stands up in court"  or similar.
I get that going to court to deal with cases at this time goes against social distancing advice, but , there comes a point in the system where if a fixed pen is issued , but not accepted by the recipient, then the case has to go to a court to be proven, yes?
The alternative is to have a system where1.  the money is taken without consent,2. without the case being proved and 3. without the "recipient " being allowed to contest the allegation.
Which might be a bit different from how the law has worked in this Country😉

Do you think anyone in the Country will accept that in order to avoid
"more wasted time sat in Court"


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## Wolf (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They don’t know themselves! So how you can claim you do is beyond me.

Click to expand...

I think Jacko is plod so have to side with him and assume as such he has a better understanding of the laws they been given better than the majority of us. 

However perhaps better clarity is needed to be given to both the police and the rest of the country to ensure everything is being adhered to by both parties properly.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think Jacko is plod so have to side with him and assume as such he has a better understanding of the laws they been given better than the majority of us.

However perhaps better clarity is needed to be given to both the police and the rest of the country to ensure everything is being adhered to by both parties properly.
		
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The problem with any legislation, but particularly any legislation involving the word "reasonable" in the definition, as I believe this one does, is that it is open to interpretation.  Consequently it needs to go through the courts & potentially the appeals process for the law to reach a position where it is black & white.  

As we all know from this forum, people's opinions of what is and isn't reasonable varies widely according to the person & the circumstance.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Stockton?
		
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Think if I moved that far North I'd be having to be stemming a permanent nosebleed...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I'm finding it difficult to see what your point is regarding Jacko saying about the Courts. IIRC he was responding to a post which said "see if that stands up in court"  or similar.
I get that going to court to deal with cases at this time goes against social distancing advice, but , there comes a point in the system where if a fixed pen is issued , but not accepted by the recipient, then the case has to go to a court to be proven, yes?
The alternative is to have a system where1.  the money is taken without consent,2. without the case being proved and 3. without the "recipient " being allowed to contest the allegation.
Which might be a bit different from how the law has worked in this Country😉

Do you think anyone in the Country will accept that in order to avoid
"more wasted time sat in Court"
		
Click to expand...

These measures are not intended to clog up our Court System with more trivia and bureaucracy, they are designed to deal with the current crisis.

Even on the BBC News at lunchtime they did a piece on it and a Government spokesman admitted different Police Forces/Chiefs are interpreting the new laws in different ways and are asking for guidance so they can put one message across.

Yesterday Derbyshire Police were asking people sat on bench’s to move along as they are meant to be exercising! Seriously, how the hell do you enforce that? 20yr Old looks fit, sat on a bench, fine him, Pregnant Lady sat on same bench, poor lass just having a rest, ignore her. Does the 20yr Old then have a criminal record and get summoned to Court?

As said I’m 100% behind the Police and with caring/living with 3 high risk individuals I fully support the Government and what they are trying to do, but it needs tempering by common sense on all sides.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The problem with any legislation, but particularly any legislation involving the word "reasonable" in the definition, as I believe this one does, is that it is open to interpretation.  Consequently it needs to go through the courts & potentially the appeals process for the law to reach a position where it is black & white.  

As we all know from this forum, people's opinions of what is and isn't reasonable varies widely according to the person & the circumstance.
		
Click to expand...

May I also throw the word "essential" into the equation ...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think Jacko is plod so have to side with him and assume as such he has a better understanding of the laws they been given better than the majority of us.

However perhaps better clarity is needed to be given to both the police and the rest of the country to ensure everything is being adhered to by both parties properly.
		
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No idea if he’s plod, but it’s the Police themselves complaining about the new system.


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## Wolf (Mar 31, 2020)

Think that's summed up nicely and your spot on with what you say about the forum. Like you say in order to lose the ambiguity of the definition they need to remove the"reasonable" part. 

The problem is with our justice system you will never remove the needless court appearance anyway even with finesnas there will be so many that don't make payment's that they escalate to being summoned to court to be made to pay them. It is just not possible to take that away as is so prevalent with the amount of fixed penalty driving fines that end up in court.


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## Wolf (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No idea if he’s plod, but it’s the Police themselves complaining about the new system.
		
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That's why we all need better clarity on the laws themselves including the plod but as above you won't ever take courts out of it because not everyone will pay penalties whether through ignorance, inability to afford to or just believe they're above the law. 

I feel for the police in all this because even if they get better clarity they will ultimately been seen by many as the bad guys of all this instead of people acknowledging their own personal part to play to make the jobs of the old bill easier


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That's why we all need better clarity on the laws themselves including the plod but as above you won't ever take courts out of it because not everyone will pay penalties whether through ignorance, inability to afford to or just believe they're above the law.

I feel for the police in all this because even if they get better clarity they will ultimately been seen by many as the bad guys of all this instead of *people acknowledging their own personal part to play* to make the jobs of the old bill easier
		
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That I do, unfortunately, lay some of the responsibility on the Government and the guidelines they put out and the different answers given by different ministers, ie, the question, “How long can I exercise for?”


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## Slab (Mar 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Listening to Jeremy Vine & some of the things that are supposed to protect us against Corona Virus that have been circulated via the internet simply beggar belief.  Even if we get past this I have concerns for the human race, particularly those prepared to come onto national radio live & advertise their own stupidity. 

Click to expand...

Someone here was arrested and faces prosecution for posting false information online likely to mislead the public


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## drdel (Mar 31, 2020)

Reading this thread over the last few days and the listening to the media I can quite see why the Aussies call us "Whinging Poms".

There is a serious infection for which there is no known cure impacting the world and that includes us in the UK. Epidemics have been heavily researched and simulations demonstrate how these thing will probably progress through the population - the best simulation are pretty darn good, that is disquieting .

In the absence of a cure all that can be done is to mitigate the infection rate and and apply medical intervention to control symptoms where possible. Since there are a finite level of resources actions will always lag behind the rate of infection and fatalities by 2 or 3 weeks - that is the real world.

So far the medical science suggests that a period of incubation and duration of the illness may be 2 to 3 weeks - but the novel nature means that could be longer if the antibodies are not the same as in SARS and previous virus infections

The UK wants to delay the infection spread by restricting person to person interaction informed by the knowledge that the risk is minimised by avoiding physical transmission and 'droplet projection' (touching and sneezing) hence sanitising and separation.

This MIGHT also reduce the total number of suffers but that's not a guarantee the death rate will be low; primarily it will 'spread' and flatten the curve and thereby keep numbers to a manageable level of the NHS capacity.

The new COVID 19 laws of a couple of weeks ago give  system powers to enforce separation but the Police walk a tightrope of the degree of 'force' and the government risk loosing public support if the isolation period goes for too long but flattening the 'curve' adds to the elapse time and contradicts what people want or will accept.

Unfortunately the media report idiotic behaviour on both sides because it makes news; the reality is these are very, very small numbers compared to the 66 million living in the UK of which about 600,000 die each year. That means about 20,000 people died in the last  months.

IMO, from simulations I've assisted in building the past, the nature of this epidemic and the 2/3 week rolling isolation needed means we will be in some form of restricted behaviour for 6 to 8 months - so try and relax there's a while to go without jumping all over each other.


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## 2blue (Mar 31, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:
Stockton?



Hacker Khan said:
Stockton?
Think if I moved that far North I'd be having to be stemming a permanent nosebleed
/QUOTE]
Leeds then!!... Wow
		
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## patricks148 (Mar 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think Jacko is plod so have to side with him and assume as such he has a better understanding of the laws they been given better than the majority of us.

However perhaps better clarity is needed to be given to both the police and the rest of the country to ensure everything is being adhered to by both parties properly.
		
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he is indeed


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Listening to Jeremy Vine & some of the things that are supposed to protect us against Corona Virus that have been circulated via the internet simply beggar belief.  Even if we get past this I have concerns for the human race, particularly those prepared to come onto national radio live & advertise their own stupidity. 

Click to expand...

Serves you right for listening to Jeremy Vine, swallow my pride and go to Radio 1 1200-1400. Rant radio at its greatest, becoming to popular with too many believing what they hear unfortunately.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			May I also throw the word "essential" into the equation ...
		
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Indeed you may.  Anything subjective rather than absolute will create the issue.


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I think Jacko is plod so have to side with him and assume as such he has a better understanding of the laws they been given better than the majority of us.

However perhaps better clarity is needed to be given to both the police and the rest of the country to ensure everything is being adhered to by both parties properly.
		
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Not saying it's the case here (and I'm pretty certain the Police will have ben briefed on the relevant laws. but 'knowledge of' and 'understanding of' are not the same thing. It's rulings in courts that establish 'clarity'! And that principle must never be altered!

Having said that, there are still many examples of 'daftness' visible from my windo and/or at work - in spite of major changes to procedures!


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## chrisd (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No idea if he’s plod
		
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Let's just say that I hope I never get pulled for speeding in Scotland ....... 😣


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Serves you right for listening to Jeremy Vine, swallow my pride and go to Radio 1 1200-1400. Rant radio at its greatest, becoming to popular with too many believing what they hear unfortunately.
		
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We have been turning him off in favour of working our way through the CD collection, but wanted to hear the police response & just carried on with it today.  How some of these people remember to breathe is a mystery, we were almost crying with laughter at times.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Let's just say that I hope I never get pulled for speeding in Scotland ....... 😣
		
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Can you move fast enough to speed at your age?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			Sorry but these swings and roundabouts you mention, are they in the city's or rural areas?
		
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The swings in cities are metal and plastic, in rural areas they are made with logs. Our log ones last much longer and are not naughty for the planet when they eventually break. The roundabouts are far fewer in the countryside, often those token ones that everyone just drives straight over and are largely pointless. We have ups and downs as well but they are a little more complicated to describe


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

For every time I hear someone say 'why can't I do X, or goto Y - it's quiet - or - there's nobody there?' I might reply - 'what if everybody thought that way - it wouldn't be so quiet then?'


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			Someone here was arrested and faces prosecution for posting false information online likely to mislead the public
		
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Same has happened here.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 31, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			he is indeed
		
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Snitch lol


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## rudebhoy (Mar 31, 2020)

367 dead in England alone yesterday. More than double the day before. Scary stuff.


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## chrisd (Mar 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can you move fast enough to speed at your age?  

Click to expand...

 You cheeky young Whippersnapper !


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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

2blue said:



			Hacker Khan said:
Stockton?
		
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I am a Gooner... Too many bad memories of being turned over by 'dirty' Leeds  to be living anywhere near 😉✌...


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



*I am a Gooner...* Too many bad memories of being turned over by 'dirty' Leeds  to be living anywhere near 😉✌...
		
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I reckon they'll find a cure for the Corona Virus before they find a cure for that...


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## Rooter (Mar 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For every time I hear someone say 'why can't I do X, or goto Y - it's quiet - or - there's nobody there?' I might reply - 'what if everybody thought that way - it wouldn't be so quiet then?'
		
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The problem is, you cannot argue with Stupid. It's impossible.


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## Rooter (Mar 31, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			367 dead in England alone yesterday. More than double the day before. Scary stuff.
		
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But the day before was down on the day previous. these daily stats should only be looked at from a wider angle, but in reality, it's approx doubling approx every 4 days which is quite scary, as by saturday we will have almost 4000 dead, and this time next week around 8000... yet people still want to go shopping daily and drive to a beauty spot to walk the dog.


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If only it was that clear to everyone!
		
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It's clear enough to me.  It's the simple fact that people don't want to believe it so choose to ignore it.  I'm sure it's clear to them, they just choose to ignore it.
It's like speed limits.  If you get a fine for speeding then don't bleat about it.  You know the rules.


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## Colin L (Mar 31, 2020)

@rudebhoy

Gorgeous dogs in your avatar.  I grew up from 5 to 19 years old with a liver and white springer spaniel very like yours except sadly with rather less tail.  She was a  wonderfully gentle and good natured dog. I could greet just thinking about her.

If my lifestyle allowed for one these days,  it would be a struggle to choose between another spaniel and a border collie.  Might have to have one of each!


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			missus was talking to one of her mates last night.

her mate was telling her that her parents (both in their 70s/80s) come to hers for Sunday dinner every week. She told them last week they wouldn't be able to come round for the time being. They turned up this Sunday as usual. when she opened the door to tell them they couldn't come in , they barged past her saying 'don't be so silly". She eventually got them out the house after about 10 minutes arguing with them.

They are also going mad with her because she has cancelled her 18yo's birthday party next week. They told her she should just go ahead with it because "no-one will know" ....
		
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And sadly there are a lot of people like that.  They know the rules, they are told the rules, they just choose to ignore them because it doesn't suit them.


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## Robster59 (Mar 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Listening to Jeremy Vine & some of the things that are supposed to protect us against Corona Virus that have been circulated via the internet simply beggar belief.  Even if we get past this I have concerns for the human race, particularly those prepared to come onto national radio live & advertise their own stupidity. 

Click to expand...

The amount of crud put on social media is ridiculous.  What is even more worrying is that a lot of people get there news and information from there, and for many the simple reason that if they look hard enough they will find something that fits in with what they want to believe and quote it as gospel.  
I have a friend who regular posts stuff on facebook because it fits in with his whole viewpoint on life irrespective of any facts, including:

A planet that was in the solar system, nobody could see but was going to collide with us (he genuinely believed this)
Various bits from a group called "Anonymous" on Facebook.  When I challenge him on this by asking him who they are, he says these are the blokes who know what is going on.  I say but WHO are they?  How do you know they're not from e.g. Russian, US, Chinese governments.  He doesn't want to know as it doesn't suit him.
And it's not even social media.  When planks like Trump spout rubbish on a regular basis it can cost lives...
Arizona man dies after attempting to take Trump coronavirus 'cure'

Sad as it may seem, people are gullible.  People have always been gullible, whatever century you look back at.  The fact that people are being prosecuted for publishing false information can only be good news.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 31, 2020)

Just had the call. 
Last shift tonight, apparently even key work (freight) isn’t immune to the effects of the economy. No discussion re pay, but knowing my lot it’ll be 80%. Interesting to see of the pay rise due to kick in next month is implemented.

On the plus side, i’ve been self isolating in one room of the house with vet little contact with my girls. So in 7 days I’ll be able to spend more time with them


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			It's clear enough to me.  It's the simple fact that people don't want to believe it so choose to ignore it.  I'm sure it's clear to them, they just choose to ignore it.
It's like speed limits.  If you get a fine for speeding then don't bleat about it.  You know the rules.
		
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You’re at crossed purposes mate, some of the issues have been shops being told not to sell Easter Eggs as they are not essential, people being told they can exercise with no time limit laid down and then Gove saying 30 min run, an hour if you’re a regular and a bike ride somewhere in between.


As much as you, me and others may be doing what we believe is correct, there is a grey area.


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## USER1999 (Mar 31, 2020)

I am on a month (may be longer) furlough from tomorrow. Luckily my company are going to make up to 100%, so I am just stuck at home doing nothing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Rooter said:



			But the day before was down on the day previous. these daily stats should only be looked at from a wider angle, but in reality, it's approx doubling approx every 4 days which is quite scary, as by saturday we will have almost 4000 dead, and this time next week around 8000... yet people still want to go shopping daily and drive to a beauty spot to walk the dog.
		
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Key thing about stats today - they are for day before yesterday (my understanding is that there is a one day verification check lag) and I think they now include deaths in the community and not just in hospitals.  Or maybe that inclusion only starts from tomorrow when yesterday's figures are released.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Rooter said:



			But the day before was down on the day previous. these daily stats should only be looked at from a wider angle, but in reality, it's approx doubling approx every 4 days which is quite scary, as by saturday we will have almost 4000 dead, and this time next week around 8000... yet people still want to go shopping daily and drive to a beauty spot to walk the dog.
		
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You want to walk the dog - then walk it round the block - twice if you must.  No need to drive to 'somewhere nice'


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## USER1999 (Mar 31, 2020)

the statistics on C19 deaths are a bit rubbish anyway.
No one knows how many have it, or have had it.
As far as I know, WHO have not officially coded the cause of death. So some countries are putting down C19 as cause of death if the person had it, and some are putting the cause of death as whatever the person was suffering from. Most dying were suffering from some other complaint, plus C19.


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## Slime (Mar 31, 2020)

I guess I'm not going to be selling my Defender for a while.


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## chrisd (Mar 31, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I am on a month (may be longer) furlough from tomorrow. Luckily my company are going to make up to 100%, so I am just stuck at home doing nothing.
		
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If you need any help doing nothing Murph, just shout !


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## rudebhoy (Mar 31, 2020)

Colin L said:



@rudebhoy

Gorgeous dogs in your avatar.  I grew up from 5 to 19 years old with a liver and white springer spaniel very like yours except sadly with rather less tail.  She was a  wonderfully gentle and good natured dog. I could greet just thinking about her.

If my lifestyle allowed for one these days,  it would be a struggle to choose between another spaniel and a border collie.  Might have to have one of each!
		
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Cheers Colin. Unfortunately we lost the bigger one 7 weeks ago. He was 12 and had liver failure. 

He was the nicest natured dog I've ever met in my life. The younger one is a total hooligan, but seems to be calming down now, mainly because he doesn't have to fight for attention any more.


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## Dando (Mar 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			If you need any help doing nothing Murph, just shout !
		
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Chris,
if you're sat doing nothing, can you find the details of a hitman as my 3 girls are driving me fcuking nuts.
ta,
Dando


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Cheers Colin. Unfortunately we lost the bigger one 7 weeks ago. He was 12 and had liver failure.

He was the nicest natured dog I've ever met in my life. The younger one is a total hooligan, but seems to be calming down now, mainly because he doesn't have to fight for attention any more.
		
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I've ran 6 miles each day with my springer since the lockdown.  he was enthusiastic at first but today when I picked up his lead his looked at me and his eyes said "seriously"!!!!.   wimp!  he's only 7


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			If you need any help doing nothing Murph, just shout !
		
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Chris, I need some help with the wine I've got in.... hope that wouldn't be too taxing for you


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2020)




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## MegaSteve (Mar 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You want to walk the dog - then walk it round the block - twice if you must.  No need to drive to 'somewhere nice'
		
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Absolutely wonderful... No doubt the can't be asked will be thinking it perfectly OK for their 'treasure' to foul our adjacent meadow... Then, if they actually break the mould, and bag up the mess they'll most likely revert to type and leave the bag swinging in the shrubs 😕😡...


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

On the plus side. If the Forum is this tetchy now, just imagine how much fun it's going to be in 3 months!


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			On the plus side. If the Forum is this tetchy now, just imagine how much fun it's going to be in 3 months! 

Click to expand...

and that's minus one or two characters too!


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## Beezerk (Mar 31, 2020)

Taken by someone this afternoon in the "closed" car park for Chopwell Woods 🙈


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## 2blue (Mar 31, 2020)

Apologies if it's been exposed already.....
https://truepublica.org.uk/united-k...docs-emerge-to-show-how-theyve-failed-us-all/ 

A worrying read as both my daughter & her partner are NHS workers in Bradford.....  both very fit & high-level, healthy Cross-fit exponents.....  but is that the best protection they'll have!


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

hovis said:



			and that's minus one or two characters too!
		
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Possibly. Will probably be a far different society by the time this is over.


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## patricks148 (Mar 31, 2020)

people near be just don't get this stay indoors, self isolation.

old dear, next door is up and down to her friends a few times a day, the nosey bugger at the end of the road is in his ndn garden helping out, he was up Torvean Ave talking to his mates in the flats when i went past on the bike earlier, now his son has his two children round , they don't live with him and they have two different mothers and a playing in the garden


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Absolutely wonderful... No doubt the can't be asked will be thinking it perfectly OK for their 'treasure' to foul our adjacent meadow... Then, if they actually break the mould, and bag up the mess they'll most likely revert to type and leave the bag swinging in the shrubs 😕😡...
		
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that's some doggy owners for you.


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 31, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Absolutely wonderful... No doubt the can't be asked will be thinking it perfectly OK for their 'treasure' to foul our adjacent meadow... Then, if they actually break the mould, and bag up the mess they'll most likely revert to type and leave the bag swinging in the shrubs 😕😡...
		
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They hang them off the trees at eye level on the bike path by mine.
I have missed a few and they have stuck in the vanes of my cycling helmet.
Fortunately none have burst YET.
Dog owners for you, well some at least.


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## User62651 (Mar 31, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Absolutely wonderful... No doubt the can't be asked will be thinking it perfectly OK for their 'treasure' to foul our adjacent meadow... Then, if they actually break the mould, and bag up the mess they'll most likely revert to type and leave the bag swinging in the shrubs 😕😡...
		
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Views on stick and flick? Dog poo is organic and better flicked under a hedgerow so long as it's out of the way of people's feet than bagged up and put in landfill imo. That's why I walk with a stick, as well as having a weapon should an aggressive dog have a go.
There will be fox scats, deer droppings and all kinds of other creatures dumpage on the meadow all helping to grow the wildflowers.😗😁


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

2blue said:



			Apologies if it's been exposed already.....
https://truepublica.org.uk/united-k...docs-emerge-to-show-how-theyve-failed-us-all/

A worrying read as both my daughter & her partner are NHS workers in Bradford.....  both very fit & high-level, healthy Cross-fit exponents.....  but is that the best protection they'll have!
		
Click to expand...

Exposed?    And if a Government had built a facility to store and maintain 60,000 to 100,000 ventilators and paid the staff to man it, they'd have been derided as absolutely barking mad, squandering public money, not fit for purpose, you name it, they'd be slagged off for it.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 31, 2020)

The lock down seems to be being stuck to ...I'm seeing less and less cars on road to work. Real test will be when it's an early shift as that's the real traffic.

Trying to only go out for work and shopping. Managed to eBay a few items that we normally have to go to different shops for (bin bags for example I only find Tesco ones work for us.. others split all time) so with that sourced I can do one shop a week at one store leaving the shelfs free for everyone else.

Her parents keep popping milk round just as excuse to see My daughter (through the window I'll add...must be hard for them)


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## BrianM (Mar 31, 2020)

https://www.skysports.com/share/11966492

Scottish rugby season declared null and void, will football follow suit....


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## Fade and Die (Mar 31, 2020)

Popped in to see my 77 year old Dad on the way home from work tonight, not seen him since lockdown, he had left the garage door unlocked, I donned latex gloves and went in like a cat burglar! Met him in the garden, a cup of tea set up on a table next to a garden chair for me....him sat 15ft away in another chair bundled up with a hat and big coat! Pretty surreal really, it was great to see him, he seems to be doing ok but is a little concerned his stock of Old Speckled Hen is dwindling! I told him I’d sort it!


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## 2blue (Mar 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Exposed?    And if a Government had built a facility to store and maintain 60,000 to 100,000 ventilators and paid the staff to man it, they'd have been derided as absolutely barking mad, squandering public money, not fit for purpose, you name it, they'd be slagged off for it.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
		
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Calm down  calm down....  it's a report. So let's see if you change your minds when we reflect on this??


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## Stuart_C (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Italy is being blamed. 

There was a Champion's League game in Bergamo. The mayor of Bergamo was incredulous calling it a "bomb waiting to go off." .
		
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Aye, we're a few weeks behind Italy as a country and I'm expecting the backlash anytime soon from when 3500 Madrid fans were over here in the bars,pubs,hotels and restaurants.

My other concern is we have an underfunded,dilapidated,not fit for purpose hospital that will not cope with the demand should a spike occur. 

All this  whilst we have brand new abomination called a hospital thanks to Carrilion and its investors.🤬🤬

Nothing i cant control usually bothers me,  this is beginning to be frightening.


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## Old Skier (Mar 31, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Popped in to see my 77 year old Dad on the way home from work tonight, not seen him since lockdown, he had left the garage door unlocked, I donned latex gloves and went in like a cat burglar! Met him in the garden, a cup of tea set up on a table next to a garden chair for me....him sat 15ft away in another chair bundled up with a hat and big coat! Pretty surreal really, it was great to see him, he seems to be doing ok but is a little concerned his stock of Old Speckled Hen is dwindling! I told him I’d sort it!
		
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Lucky you, disabled sister 270 miles away in Lincoln and Mil about the same distance in Kent, doubt if I could get that far before being stopped and discussing the whys and ware fore of necessary journey.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 31, 2020)

Definitely a lot of the cars on the A329 from Bracknell heading towards the M4 each morning. Once you get past that the road is definitely much quieter and the run from there to Reading and the hospital eerily quiet so on the assumption most sensible people will be in bed if not working then you have to assume these are still key workers (though have my doubts). I do think the figures will spike and rise dramatically as self-isolation won't have taken full effect yet


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## Hobbit (Mar 31, 2020)

2blue said:



			Apologies if it's been exposed already.....
https://truepublica.org.uk/united-k...docs-emerge-to-show-how-theyve-failed-us-all/

A worrying read as both my daughter & her partner are NHS workers in Bradford.....  both very fit & high-level, healthy Cross-fit exponents.....  but is that the best protection they'll have!
		
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I don't know what the right answer is Dave. 100,000 vents? 80,000 vents? Everyone was saying how well Germany were doing but the numbers the last couple of days, and the data on the early cases suggests they might not finish as well as many people originally thought.

Doing a few numbers gives an idea of what 80,000 vents would cost. 80,000 bed spaces is the equivalent of about 80-100 hospitals at about £600m each = £48,000m. But in a pandemic a lot of wards would become ITU's. Maybe no new hospitals then? But its not just a vent in an ITU bed space. A typical ITU bed space costs £60,000. £60,000x 80,000 = £4,800m

Okay, how about staffing? Could a general nurse operate a ventilator - bear in mind on a 3 shift system covering 7 days you'd need 3 per bed + another 3 floaters between a few beds to cover weekends. You'd wouldn't/couldn't have general nurses doing it unless all nurses were trained up to ITU level. And then how would they maintain their skill levels? You couldn't rotate that many through ITU, and you sure as hell couldn't afford that many ITU level nurses.

Enough! My head hurts.

There's some mileage in looking at more equipment but no way could it be afforded to the level suggested in the report.

Okay, let's come at it from the other direction. Testing the public a lot sooner, identifying who needs intervention before they become chronic. Start with the most vulnerable and work back over. Anyone that proves positive, isolate straightaway. They'll stand a way better chance of getting better, and will get better quicker.

You can't afford the intensive care option, not even close, but addressed at a primary care level you could make a huge difference. The report is at an almost a cerebral level - the theory is great but practically its stupid. The issue, for me, is poor first intervention at a primary care level.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 31, 2020)

So we apparently have a problem with people driving out to walk in nice places.

If that is correct, which clown at ITV thought scheduling Best Walks with a View with Julia Bradbury was a good idea; what flaming planet are they on?


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## User20204 (Mar 31, 2020)

Germany are 5th in the list of cases, not exactly "doing well" I'd say. They are counting their deaths totally differently.


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## chrisd (Mar 31, 2020)

Dando said:



			Chris,
if you're sat doing nothing, can you find the details of a hitman as my 3 girls are driving me fcuking nuts.
ta,
Dando
		
Click to expand...

You haven't met Mrs D - I'm not doing "nothing" whatever that is 😣


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## chrisd (Mar 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Chris, I need some help with the wine I've got in.... hope that wouldn't be too taxing for you
		
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Prefer Port Brian then would be happy to help 👍


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## Fade and Die (Mar 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Lucky you, disabled sister 270 miles away in Lincoln and Mil about the same distance in Kent, doubt if I could get that far before being stopped and discussing the whys and ware fore of necessary journey.
		
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Get yourself a van. I’ve been using one of ours rather than my car, nobody looks at you twice!


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

25000 confirmed cases ( so positive tests) and total mortalities 1789.
It would be interesting to know the number of tests conducted, the geography of those tests.
More specifics about the mortalities- age, health, occupation, area etc ..
totally missing from mainstream media.
But reading the comments about vents, surely the accuracy of the analysis will help the demands and perhaps get a grasp of what could be done to reduce the need for long usage of vents.. 
Dunno just want a proper analysis something without the emotion or media hype but more detail


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

Wish they'd stop talking about the pandemic numbers of infections reaching a 'peak'.  A peak in numbers suggests to me that soon afterwards numbers start dropping pretty quickly.  My understanding of the 'flattening' is that we'll actually get to a plateau - not a peak - and we will stay at that level for quite some time before there is a drop off.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wish they'd stop talking about the pandemic numbers of infections reaching a 'peak'.  A peak in numbers suggests to me that soon afterwards numbers start dropping pretty quickly.  My understanding of the 'flattening' is that we'll actually get to a plateau - not a peak - and we will stay at that level for quite some time before there is a drop off.
		
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Even to get to a plateau there has to be a rise or "peak" before any flattening. It was getting to that plateau with self isolation Boris was trying to achieve. It won't instantly fall. If it goes well the line will stay static with some peaks and troughs but mostly consistent until we get a shallow dip as cases and deaths fall. Definitely not a spike down


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## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

I see a 13 year old and a 19 year old have sadly succumbed to this horrendous virus. 

Genuinely is worrying how indiscriminate this disease is.


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## yandabrown (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			25000 confirmed cases ( so positive tests) and total mortalities 1789.
It would be interesting to know the number of tests conducted, the geography of those tests.
More specifics about the mortalities- age, health, occupation, area etc ..
totally missing from mainstream media.
But reading the comments about vents, surely the accuracy of the analysis will help the demands and perhaps get a grasp of what could be done to reduce the need for long usage of vents..
Dunno just want a proper analysis something without the emotion or media hype but more detail
		
Click to expand...

The site below has information released from Italy, Spain, China and South Korea regarding ages (at the bottom) and a whole host of information besides. It allows you to look at graphs and compare with other countries for infections and deaths (our curves are close to Italy, France and Spain).
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus


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## IainP (Mar 31, 2020)

Beezerk said:



View attachment 29573


Taken by someone this afternoon in the "closed" car park for Chopwell Woods 🙈
		
Click to expand...

We're so reassuringly/terribly British about this sort of stuff.
Here's a glimpse from the good ol' US of A
_https://www.penbaypilot.com/article...WFRFkHyPu8icBDBflJlTClY#.Xn98RKNSbbg.facebook_


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## 2blue (Mar 31, 2020)

2blue said:



			Calm down  calm down....  it's a report. So let's see if you change your minds when we reflect on this??
		
Click to expand...

My daughter behind her protection........   https://www.csp.org.uk/news/2020-03...2MC1cieGiDnlLDIuTkddxZzVMS9iUZvnuIlnSTLmeJuUs 
2 degrees in Physio & Sports Therapy & she's here on the front-line! Go girl, go....


----------



## User20204 (Mar 31, 2020)

The flattening is only to protect the NHS being able to cope, my understanding of it is there won't be any drop off, remember they expect 60 - 80 percent of the population to get it.


----------



## Jacko_G (Mar 31, 2020)

2blue said:



			My daughter behind her protection........   https://www.csp.org.uk/news/2020-03...2MC1cieGiDnlLDIuTkddxZzVMS9iUZvnuIlnSTLmeJuUs
2 degrees in Physio & Sports Therapy & she's here on the front-line! Go girl, go....
		
Click to expand...

Huge respect for her. 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Might help someone.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244931531807825920


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## rosecott (Mar 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 29571

Click to expand...

I can't believe how this country has gone to the dogs. There is no apostrophe in Pumas.


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## hovis (Mar 31, 2020)

.


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## Ross61 (Mar 31, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Definitely a lot of the cars on the A329 from Bracknell heading towards the M4 each morning. Once you get past that the road is definitely much quieter and the run from there to Reading and the hospital eerily quiet so on the assumption most sensible people will be in bed if not working then *you have to assume these are still key workers (though have my doubts)*. I do think the figures will spike and rise dramatically as self-isolation won't have taken full effect yet
		
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Common misconception. You don’t need to be a key worker to go to work, as long as you can’t do you job at home you can carry on earning a wage.
 I would be in that position if my job wasn’t on the key workers list. (Telecommunications network operations engineer)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

If I am a gardener can I go to one of my clients when they are out and cut their lawn?


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## IainP (Mar 31, 2020)

hovis said:



			.
		
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Like, and charge that battery! (if you screenshotted it yourself) 😉


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## upsidedown (Mar 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I am a gardener can I go to one of my clients when they are out and cut their lawn?
		
Click to expand...

I only mow lawns now and all clients have been informed to stay indoors when I come and arrange to pay online. Did 4 today( ride on mower today ) and didn't see single one of them  .


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## Crazyface (Mar 31, 2020)

I'm getting tetchy now. Someone posted on FB something about Tesco workers and others and how great they are and for everyone not to treat shopping there as a day out, to get in and out quickly. Oh yeah, that's ok for those who can go to work as if nothing is going on. And I might add, do they make sure they stay 2 meters from customers? Do they hell!!! It's us who are stopping at home and doing what the government have asked that should be treated with the utmost respect!!!!


----------



## pauljames87 (Apr 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm getting tetchy now. Someone posted on FB something about Tesco workers and others and how great they are and for everyone not to treat shopping there as a day out, to get in and out quickly. Oh yeah, that's ok for those who can go to work as if nothing is going on. And I might add, do they make sure they stay 2 meters from customers? Do they hell!!! It's us who are stopping at home and doing what the government have asked that should be treated with the utmost respect!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Think you have missed the point ..these people can't work from home. They also can't afford not to work.

So what they might be spreading the illness slightly. We aren't trying to stop the spread we are trying to reduce it..however these people put themselves out in the risky areas and allows people who can stay at home to get food.

Bit of respect to them wouldn't go a miss.

If you can afford to stay home or work from home that's a privilege. Others don't have that luxury


----------



## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

Gove caught lying about virus tests

Peston asked him at the 5pm briefing why the UK was only testing 10,000 per day while the Germans were doing 70k.

Gove blamed it on a shortage of some key chemicals.



Robert Peston
@Peston
.
@michaelgove
said just now that the difficulty in increasing number of #COVID19 tests was due to a shortage of the relevant "chemcial reagents". Well I've just talked to the Chemical Industries Association, which represents the UK's very substantial chemicals industry. It...
6:53 pm · 31 Mar 2020·Twitter Web App
8.6K
Retweets
11.3K
Likes

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
Replying to 
@Peston
has contacted its members, and they've said there is no shortage of the relevant reagents. So the Association has now been in touch with 
@michaelgove
's office to find out what he means, because it is stumped. The Association also points out there was an industry chat with...
178
1.8K
4.5K

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
a business minister today, who made no attempt to find out if there was a supply problem for the vital ingredients of Covid19 testing kits. So this question of why there aren't enough tests for the virus is an even bigger mystery. Also, if it turns out there is a shortage...
120
1.3K
3.6K

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
these manufacturers are more than happy to increase their production. But they need to be asked, which has not happened. PS It was Labour MP 
@Bill_Esterson
who initially spotted this gap between what Gove said and what the industry believes to be true.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm getting tetchy now. Someone posted on FB something about Tesco workers and others and how great they are and for everyone not to treat shopping there as a day out, to get in and out quickly. Oh yeah, that's ok for those who can go to work as if nothing is going on. And I might add, do they make sure they stay 2 meters from customers? Do they hell!!! It's us who are stopping at home and doing what the government have asked that should be treated with the utmost respect!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I also stay at home all the time and it's not fair. I'm sure those who are having to work, often on minimum wage, to ensure we can get food and having to expose themselves to the public, therefore increasing the risk of them or their loved ones getting the virus and dying should be more greatful to those of us sat on their arses at home.

In fact next time I'm in tescos I'm going to demand they all thank me personally and I'll remind them they don't know how lucky they are to have their chances of getting the virus increased.

I'm also going to see if they are handing out MBEs for entitled morons as I think we'd be in with a chance for just staying at home.


----------



## pauljames87 (Apr 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I'm sure those who are having to work to ensure we can get food and having to expose themselves to the public therefore increasing the risk of them or their loved ones getting the disease and dying, should be more greatful to those sat on their arses at home.

In fact next time I'm in tescos I'm going to demand they all thank me personally and I'll remind them they don't know how lucky they are to have their chances of getting the virus increased.
		
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Some people just don't understand what others have to do. 

These workers aren't as lucky as I am for example 

Right now I could be off work for 12 weeks minimum full pay because my wife's pregnant and asthmatic. Our work have said partners can go off and make sure we protect them by not bringing the virus home etc as we shield 

Me and the wife discussed and instead I'm on my 6th night of my 7 and come home completely disinfectant the car and shower before seeing her because want to help out. We have 5 doing this out of 33 with 3 long term sick for various illnesses so it's hard enough to cover the room.

I could however turn round and go sod that I'm gonna sit and home then moan about Tesco workers getting credit for putting themselves out there


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I am a gardener can I go to one of my clients when they are out and cut their lawn?
		
Click to expand...

Yes. You can also go when they are in as long as they either stay in the house or remain more than 2m away.

If you can not do your job from home then you can still go to work as long as you can do so safely. Gardeners certainly come in to that category.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



*Some people just don't understand what others have to do.*

These workers aren't as lucky as I am for example

Right now I could be off work for 12 weeks minimum full pay because my wife's pregnant and asthmatic. Our work have said partners can go off and make sure we protect them by not bringing the virus home etc as we shield

Me and the wife discussed and instead I'm on my 6th night of my 7 and come home completely disinfectant the car and shower before seeing her because want to help out. We have 5 doing this out of 33 with 3 long term sick for various illnesses so it's hard enough to cover the room.

I could however turn round and go sod that I'm gonna sit and home then moan about Tesco workers getting credit for putting themselves out there
		
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It's the Donald Trump school of empathy.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Apr 1, 2020)

We are all in this together, everyone has their bit to play, the NHS staff who are at the forefront, those staying at home and those in the supply chain who keep the shelves stocked.
Plus all the people keeping the stuff like electricity and internet etc going.

We just need to accept that it’s going to be like this for a few weeks and hunker down and do our bit as best we can without going bonkers 😎👍


----------



## pauljames87 (Apr 1, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We are all in this together, everyone has their bit to play, the NHS staff who are at the forefront, those staying at home and those in the supply chain who keep the shelves stocked.
Plus all the people keeping the stuff like electricity and internet etc going.

We just need to accept that it’s going to be like this for a few weeks and hunker down and do our bit as best we can without going bonkers 😎👍
		
Click to expand...

The hardest bit is not going bonkers 

It's like groundhog Day or that weird bit of the year between boxing day and new years ... Just what do you do


----------



## need_my_wedge (Apr 1, 2020)

Posted a model on this a week or so back. This new one popped up today with a few more variations, a very interesting set of models.


----------



## Fish (Apr 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I also stay at home all the time and it's not fair. I'm sure those who are having to work, often on minimum wage, to ensure we can get food and having to expose themselves to the public, therefore increasing the risk of them or their loved ones getting the virus and dying should be more greatful to those of us sat on their arses at home.

In fact next time I'm in tescos I'm going to demand they all thank me personally and I'll remind them they don't know how lucky they are to have their chances of getting the virus increased.

I'm also going to see if they are handing out MBEs for entitled morons as I think we'd be in with a chance for just staying at home.
		
Click to expand...

Its a rarity I agree with your comments or they raise a smile from me, but have a like off me


----------



## huds1475 (Apr 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm getting tetchy now. Someone posted on FB something about Tesco workers and others and how great they are and for everyone not to treat shopping there as a day out, to get in and out quickly. Oh yeah, that's ok for those who can go to work as if nothing is going on. And I might add, do they make sure they stay 2 meters from customers? Do they hell!!! It's us who are stopping at home and doing what the government have asked that should be treated with the utmost respect!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Great point.

What about those health care workers too? Don't see them giving me a round of applause for staying at home.

The cheek of it


----------



## need_my_wedge (Apr 1, 2020)

Think it's going to start affecting us more soon. Mrs Wedge is a nurse in a clinic at the local hospital, they were only allowed to start wearing masks yesterday. Even then it came after one of the doctors had to argue the case with the clinic manager (a nurse), who was against it for what reason we don't know. 

According to the hospital grapevine, it seems that there is at least one Covid case in every ward now. Have resigned myself to the point that we are going to get it, if we haven't already had it (did have the worst cough ever for a couple of weeks at the end of January - but that's just wishful thinking).


----------



## User62651 (Apr 1, 2020)

Me and Mrs both have covid19 now according to Doc, a few days now but mild. Chest discomfort was first proper sign around 5 days ago, I thought it was from too many pushups or diy at my age...seriously. But 2 days ago chest tightness came again for both of us became more obvious, moreso for Mrs, only other symptoms for me are typical of a cold - little off colour but only sometimes, not all the time, teeniest of headaches and have had the odd little clammy sweat moment but no fever. Cough is barely there, just very occasional tickle. My energy is decent but I tend to crash early, wife is tired generally though. I live with mild daily pain anyway so tend to bat it off and crack on. All the CV symptoms come and go in the day. My blood glucose is good (diabetes) thankfully the libreview sensor I've had 6months now is a brilliant aid with control so I thank the NHS for that. Relieved waking up today that things are no worse than last evening, was getting worried as symptoms were more obvious yesterday, but anxiety comes from reading/hearing so much shocking news that u forget 90%+ of us will not get too ill with it. No idea where we got it, possibly before the lockdown, older kid was ill overnight about 10 days ago missing school. Mrs has a shop so an easy source for her. I thought we were being pretty thorough with isolating, contact and processes of hygiene etc. Now the feeling is pray it doesn't worsen over next few days and if that happens think maybe better to get it over with for peace of mind and hope you can't get reinfected, that aspect remains unconfirmed though I think.


----------



## bobmac (Apr 1, 2020)

How has the Coronavirus affected me?
Not much really
I'm retired, living alone and don't play much golf anymore.
I have heating, tv and access to the whole world of media/music/films through the internet.

I went shopping yesterday for the first time in 2 weeks as I was getting low on a few things and I wore my mask and observed the 2m rule.

I'm lucky, I don't have a dog to walk, I don't pop to the village shop every day, or go driving around the countryside, in fact I don't leave my home at all.
I haven't gone mad, I'm not suicidal and I haven't suddenly become obese.
I may have put on a pound or two but I can sort that out later when this episode in history is over.

To those who have to work in health care, utilities and the supply chain/ supermarkets etc, I thank you.
Good luck to everyone, including those who are are able to work from home and to those who have the virus, get well soon.

To the others in society who insist on spreading doom and gloom, ignoring the rules/guidelines and doing what they want, stay away from my house please.
Thank you.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

Fish said:



			Its a rarity I agree with your comments or they raise a smile from me, but have a like off me 

Click to expand...

Don't worry, I'm sure normal service will be resumed soon.


----------



## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



*We are all in this together, everyone has their bit to play, *the NHS staff who are at the forefront, those staying at home and those in the supply chain who keep the shelves stocked.
Plus all the people keeping the stuff like electricity and internet etc going.

We just need to accept that it’s going to be like this for a few weeks and hunker down and do our bit as best we can without going bonkers 😎👍
		
Click to expand...

Unless you're rich and powerful then you get preferential treatment 🤭


----------



## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Gove caught lying about virus tests

Peston asked him at the 5pm briefing why the UK was only testing 10,000 per day while the Germans were doing 70k.

Gove blamed it on a shortage of some key chemicals.



Robert Peston
@Peston
.
@michaelgove
said just now that the difficulty in increasing number of #COVID19 tests was due to a shortage of the relevant "chemcial reagents". Well I've just talked to the Chemical Industries Association, which represents the UK's very substantial chemicals industry. It...
6:53 pm · 31 Mar 2020·Twitter Web App
8.6K
Retweets
11.3K
Likes

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
Replying to
@Peston
has contacted its members, and they've said there is no shortage of the relevant reagents. So the Association has now been in touch with
@michaelgove
's office to find out what he means, because it is stumped. The Association also points out there was an industry chat with...
178
1.8K
4.5K

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
a business minister today, who made no attempt to find out if there was a supply problem for the vital ingredients of Covid19 testing kits. So this question of why there aren't enough tests for the virus is an even bigger mystery. Also, if it turns out there is a shortage...
120
1.3K
3.6K

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
these manufacturers are more than happy to increase their production. But they need to be asked, which has not happened. PS It was Labour MP
@Bill_Esterson
who initially spotted this gap between what Gove said and what the industry believes to be true.
		
Click to expand...

Not Surprising from Gove though is it?

I like Peston, hopefully he continues with this while Hancock,Cummings and Johnson are in isolation.

Thats the last we'll be hearing from Gove, it'll be the well trained media darling Chancellor now. 

Sunak is a born Thatcherite, thats been pushed into a position of serious power from relatively nowhere. You can tell they're already lining him up for the top job. And God help us all if he gets it.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Not Surprising from Gove though is it?

I like Peston, hopefully he continues with this while Hancock,Cummings and Johnson are in isolation.

Thats the last we'll be hearing from Gove, it'll be the well trained media darling Chancellor now.

Sunak is a born Thatcherite, thats been pushed into a position of serious power from relatively nowhere. *You can tell they're already lining him up for the top job. And God help us all if he gets it*.
		
Click to expand...

I'm just amazed at how people are losing their minds and proclaiming the next messiah based on a very small sample size as someone seems vaguely competent. And can speak with relative authority and seriousness without sounding like an incompetent popularist eejut promoted way above their competence level based on entirely on their views on Brexit like the majority of the rest of the cabinet. You telling me Preti Patel is the best home secretary we could have had?? In the good old days this was the norm, most of the cabinet had this base level of competence, nowadays we seem to celebrate it like it's a miracle. Oh well, in the land of the blind an all that....


----------



## Robster59 (Apr 1, 2020)

Not so much affecting me but fixating me.  Every time I see Dr Catherine Calderwood doing her Coronavirus update on TV she looks like someone who has superimposed a mouth over her face.  The lips move but nothing else does!  I pointed it out to my Missus and she agreed.
This is nothing against the doctor or the work that she and everybody else is doing, but it is now something that my eyes get drawn to every time I see her doing an announcement.


----------



## Twire (Apr 1, 2020)

Please don't turn this into a political thread... we have enough of those already.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Not Surprising from Gove though is it?

I like Peston, hopefully he continues with this while Hancock,Cummings and Johnson are in isolation.

Thats the last we'll be hearing from Gove, it'll be the well trained media darling Chancellor now.

Sunak is a born Thatcherite, thats been pushed into a position of serious power from relatively nowhere. You can tell they're already lining him up for the top job. And God help us all if he gets it.
		
Click to expand...

Sunshine, lollipops and rainbows everywhere! lovely song. Stuck in my head for some reason!


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2020)

Twire said:



			Please don't turn this into a political thread... we have enough of those already.
		
Click to expand...

Damn.. too late.. Never mind.. I'll edit my post and make it something less "political"


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 1, 2020)

Twire said:



			Please don't turn this into a political thread... we have enough of those already.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with the sentiment, but there are political decisions about the virus and the handling that has impacts on us all.

Would you suggest another thread to discuss those decisions/impacts or keep it in one place?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2020)

All the staff at HID's school have been asked to log in for a conference call at 6.00 so guessing it's closing and staff redundancies afoot. I hope I'm wrong but can't see any reason to get all staff together at one time


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Gove caught lying about virus tests

Peston asked him at the 5pm briefing why the UK was only testing 10,000 per day while the Germans were doing 70k.

Gove blamed it on a shortage of some key chemicals.



Robert Peston
@Peston
.
@michaelgove
said just now that the difficulty in increasing number of #COVID19 tests was due to a shortage of the relevant "chemcial reagents". Well I've just talked to the Chemical Industries Association, which represents the UK's very substantial chemicals industry. It...
6:53 pm · 31 Mar 2020·Twitter Web App
8.6K
Retweets
11.3K
Likes

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
Replying to
@Peston
has contacted its members, and they've said there is no shortage of the relevant reagents. So the Association has now been in touch with
@michaelgove
's office to find out what he means, because it is stumped. The Association also points out there was an industry chat with...
178
1.8K
4.5K

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
a business minister today, who made no attempt to find out if there was a supply problem for the vital ingredients of Covid19 testing kits. So this question of why there aren't enough tests for the virus is an even bigger mystery. Also, if it turns out there is a shortage...
120
1.3K
3.6K

Robert Peston
@Peston
·
4h
these manufacturers are more than happy to increase their production. But they need to be asked, which has not happened. PS It was Labour MP
@Bill_Esterson
who initially spotted this gap between what Gove said and what the industry believes to be true.
		
Click to expand...

I am afraid that in the briefing yesterday Gove came across yesterday in his usual oleaginous and condescending lecturing way...

I am struggling to keep the faith.  The mouthpieces that Johnson is putting out front are doing nothing for the credibility of the message and the approach.


----------



## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

Twire said:



			Please don't turn this into a political thread... we have enough of those already.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not...... Threads naturally evolve and my post is totally on topic. If you disagree then that's your opinion. I'm discussing post #3550 the valid points that Gove has stood on Live TV and lied to the nation.

HAGD 👍


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am afraid that in the briefing yesterday Gove came across yesterday in his usual oleaginous and condescending lecturing way...

I am struggling to keep the faith.  The mouthpieces that Johnson is putting out front are doing nothing for the credibility of the message and the approach.
		
Click to expand...

Can we take the politics out of this. Far too many similar threads and don't need another being polluted and ruined.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I also stay at home all the time and it's not fair. I'm sure those who are having to work, often on minimum wage, to ensure we can get food and having to expose themselves to the public, therefore increasing the risk of them or their loved ones getting the virus and dying should be more greatful to those of us sat on their arses at home.

In fact next time I'm in tescos I'm going to demand they all thank me personally and I'll remind them they don't know how lucky they are to have their chances of getting the virus increased.

I'm also going to see if they are handing out MBEs for entitled morons as I think we'd be in with a chance for just staying at home.
		
Click to expand...

I was more than pleased to see that our small town centre Sainsbury's now has 2m queuing marks outside; indications where to stand; inside indications where to walk to the side of aisles, and importantly - screens at the checkouts to physically separate those on the tills from the customers.  

Just wish some customers (and some staff) wouldn't wander about the place seemingly oblivious to anyone else in their vicinity.  Fortunately most of the time I am able to take early evasive action.


----------



## harpo_72 (Apr 1, 2020)

Some of the posts regards symptoms clearly show that they are pretty varied and the onset is hard to quantify .. it does justify the isolation strategy. 

It does look like one person’s minor sniffle/ tickly throat/ inconsistent dry cough.. could possibly be a major case for someone else. So don’t play it down irrespective of how minor you think it is, isolate. 

Not sure if that has been the message but I haven’t heard it. I suppose it’s almost saying we haven’t a scooby doo about the symptoms just a lot of general ones ..


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Can we take the politics out of this. Far too many similar threads and don't need another being polluted and ruined.
		
Click to expand...

This isn't politics - this is the individuals who are telling us what's going on and that we are being asked to believe and put our trust in - my comment has nothing whatsoever to do with politics of these individuals and I am not making any mention whatsoever of their politics.  It's their delivery of the message that bothers me.

Bring back Rishi Sunak.  I respect what he says and feel that he speaks authentically.  I can believe him far more than I can such as Gove, Jenrick, Zahawi or Sharma - I just struggle with them - I do not want to struggle.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Some of the posts regards symptoms clearly show that they are pretty varied and the onset is hard to quantify .. it does justify the isolation strategy.

It does look like one person’s minor sniffle/ tickly throat/ inconsistent dry cough.. could possibly be a major case for someone else. So don’t play it down irrespective of how minor you think it is, isolate.

Not sure if that has been the message but I haven’t heard it. I suppose it’s almost saying we haven’t a scooby doo about the symptoms just a lot of general ones ..
		
Click to expand...

Apparently a lost of taste and smell now seems as a key symptom with over 59% reporting these symptoms when testing positive. Bearing in mind this only came to light once we were in to the infectious stages I imagine this percentage would have been even higher had everyone been aware from the outset


----------



## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Can we take the politics out of this. Far too many similar threads and don't need another being polluted and ruined.
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂😂


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm just amazed at how people are losing their minds and proclaiming the next messiah based on a very small sample size as someone seems vaguely competent. And can speak with relative authority and seriousness without sounding like an incompetent popularist eejut promoted way above their competence level based on entirely on their views on Brexit like the majority of the rest of the cabinet. You telling me Preti Patel is the best home secretary we could have had?? In the good old days this was the norm, most of the cabinet had this base level of competence, nowadays we seem to celebrate it like it's a miracle. Oh well, in the land of the blind an all that....
		
Click to expand...

I might fundamentally disagree with Sunak's politics - however in respect of how he has spoken in any briefing he has given I sense an authenticity that I can believe in (though of course he might be talking complete b*****ks)


----------



## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			All the staff at HID's school have been asked to log in for a conference call at 6.00 so guessing it's closing *and staff redundancies afoot*. I hope I'm wrong but can't see any reason to get all staff together at one time
		
Click to expand...

Why staff redundancies?  The chancellor has made it very clear that people should not be made redundant and I can't see and local authorities or academies doing that. And as a chair of governors at a school the last thing you want to be doing now is going through a redundancy process. Schools are still getting a majority of their revenue coming in even if there is little teaching going on and schools do not know at this stage if they will lose, be much the same or even gain financially from this when it all shakes out.


----------



## Slime (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I am a gardener can I go to one of my clients when they are out and cut their lawn?
		
Click to expand...

Yes.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 1, 2020)

Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

sorry to hear that mate


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## User62651 (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Agree with the sentiment, but there are political decisions about the virus and the handling that has impacts on us all.

Would you suggest another thread to discuss those decisions/impacts or keep it in one place?
		
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It will always be political, something like this, can't not be. Politicians are running the show and lives depend on it.
Trump kinda dropping UK Govt in it yesterday wrt change in approach, no need! Trying to vinidcate his own about turn on CV19 I suppose.


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## Imurg (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
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Condolences


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## Slime (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.
		
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Genuinely sorry to hear that, Paul.
Thoughts are with you and his son.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

Sorry to hear your loss Paul, if there’s anything i could do to help out give me a ring👍🏻


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Why staff redundancies?  The chancellor has made it very clear that people should not be made redundant and I can't see and local authorities or academies doing that. And as a chair of governors at a school the last thing you want to be doing now is going through a redundancy process. Schools are still getting a majority of their revenue coming in even if there is little teaching going on and schools do not know at this stage if they will lose, be much the same or even gain financially from this when it all shakes out.
		
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It's an independent school so reliant on fees and I simply don't think parents have paid or are prepared to pay until they know when their kids will have an education which I feel (and my wife concurs) will be the new school year in September and so with no cash coming in I'm not sure how they will keep going. Several other independents locally have already gone


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## Wolf (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that Paul, thoughts with you and your family.

I've also had a quick Google and nothing comes up, perhaps could be worth contacting your local MP or your nephews MP to ask for clarity and perhaps even get a dispensation email/letter to acknowledge the need for travel to make necessary arrangements. Could be worth a try as at least they could then take up the case on his behalf if plod do get funny.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
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My condolences.
That just sounds very poor response from the authorities.
At a time of loss you need help not stupid jobsworths.
I live in Liverpool so if I can help just ask.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sorry to hear that Paul, thoughts with you and your family.

I've also had a quick Google and nothing comes up, perhaps could be worth contacting your local MP or your nephews MP to ask for clarity and perhaps even get a dispensation email/letter to acknowledge the need for travel to make necessary arrangements. Could be worth a try as at least they could then take up the case on his behalf if plod do get funny.
		
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Good suggestion! 👍


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## Wolf (Apr 1, 2020)

2 things from today as to how its affected us. 

1. Wife finally got email from Mike Ashley's mob stating she is to be furloughed from April. 

2. Just had an answerphone from the Navy's reserve team asking me to get contact with them or my old unit/local unit with regards to Covid-19 sanctions and requirements, when contacting them to quote my service number that's all it said. This is going to an interesting call back to them 🤔


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

New guidelines issued to cops today say there should be no 'road blocks' or routine stopping of motor vehicles. If he has any paperwork/emails then stick them in the car: I'd be willing to bet he will be fine.


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

.


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## bluewolf (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Genuinely sorry that you've both found yourselves in this situation. A bit of sense would clear this up in no time, but that's in short supply all over at the moment.. I hope you get it sorted mate..


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## Hobbit (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
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Really sorry for your loss Paul.

How about if his son had an email from the shelter manager? If stopped by the Police he could show it and hope the policeman shows some common sense. If he did end up with a fixed penalty notice, contest it.


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## IanM (Apr 1, 2020)

Sorry to hear your news Paul..... I'd hope the police would show some compassion if needed....

we heard about a former member of my wife'd golf club who died of the virus last week and her cousin now has it.  Awful stuff going on.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It's an independent school so reliant on fees and I simply don't think parents have paid or are prepared to pay until they know when their kids will have an education which I feel (and my wife concurs) will be the new school year in September and so with no cash coming in I'm not sure how they will keep going. Several other independents locally have already gone
		
Click to expand...

I'll preface this with the fact that this is a very selfish viewpoint from a position of privilege.  But my daughters is at an independent school and the vast majority of parents I know are happy to still pay for the next term as long as the school are providing an education to the best of their ability, which they are. Yes it will not be as good as being there in person, but to be quite brutal about it, independent schools will on average be providing better education to their pupils than non-independent schools at this time.  So the kids in independent schools will be on average, having even more of an advantage when 'proper' schooling resumes.   So for parents to opt out of that is a bit silly IMHO.  

I imagine if independent school pointed out that unless parents pay, the school may close and the parents will need to find a space for their kids in a system in which the best non-independent schools are already heavily over subscribed, then they may well change their minds. Also independent schools will want to hold onto their best staff and should have a war chest built up to get them through the summer term.


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## Beezerk (Apr 1, 2020)

Really sorry about your brother Paul, positive thoughts your way.
It's not like he can even take the back roads to avoid the police on the motorways. Hope he gets something sorted.


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## davemc1 (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry for your loss Paul, thoughts with you and yours


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'll preface this with the fact that this is a very selfish viewpoint from a position of privilege.  But my daughters is at an independent school and the vast majority of parents I know are happy to still pay for the next term as long as the school are providing an education to the best of their ability, which they are. Yes it will not be as good as being there in person, but to be quite brutal about it, independent schools will on average be providing better education to their pupils than non-independent schools at this time.  So the kids in independent schools will be on average, having even more of an advantage when 'proper' schooling resumes.   So for parents to opt out of that is a bit silly IMHO. 

I imagine if independent school pointed out that unless parents pay, the school may close and the parents will need to find a space for their kids in a system in which the best non-independent schools are already heavily over subscribed, then they may well change their minds. Also independent schools will want to hold onto their best staff and should have a war chest built up to get them through the summer term.
		
Click to expand...

And you felt the need to broadcast your selfish view -why!!


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			And you felt the need to broadcast your selfish view -why!!
		
Click to expand...

Because I was replying to Homer who was worried about his wife, who works in an independent school, being made redundant. So I was saying how I think parents of kids in independent schools may think as I am one myself and I know quite a few, which may mean that the school may not be closing and Homers wife does not lose her job. It's all speculation and all that, but I was trying to say it might not be as bad as he fears.

Is that OK?


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I am a gardener can I go to one of my clients when they are out and cut their lawn?
		
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Are you a Garderner or just someone who does a garden, if the later stay away


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm getting tetchy now. Someone posted on FB something about Tesco workers and others and how great they are and for everyone not to treat shopping there as a day out, to get in and out quickly. Oh yeah, that's ok for those who can go to work as if nothing is going on. And I might add, do they make sure they stay 2 meters from customers? Do they hell!!! It's us who are stopping at home and doing what the government have asked that should be treated with the utmost respect!!!!
		
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Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, I also stay at home all the time and it's not fair. I'm sure those who are having to work, often on minimum wage, to ensure we can get food and having to expose themselves to the public, therefore increasing the risk of them or their loved ones getting the virus and dying should be more greatful to those of us sat on their arses at home.

In fact next time I'm in tescos I'm going to demand they all thank me personally and I'll remind them they don't know how lucky they are to have their chances of getting the virus increased.

I'm also going to see if they are handing out MBEs for entitled morons as I think we'd be in with a chance for just staying at home.
		
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Fish said:



			Its a rarity I agree with your comments or they raise a smile from me, but have a like off me 

Click to expand...

Yup, and me.


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm getting tetchy now. Someone posted on FB something about Tesco workers and others and how great they are and for everyone not to treat shopping there as a day out, to get in and out quickly. Oh yeah, that's ok for those who can go to work as if nothing is going on. And I might add, do they make sure they stay 2 meters from customers? Do they hell!!! It's us who are stopping at home and doing what the government have asked that should be treated with the utmost respect!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Engage brain before going anywhere near a keyboard.


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Engage brain before going anywhere near a keyboard.
		
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😂


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

.


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			New guidelines issued to cops today say there should be no 'road blocks' or routine stopping of motor vehicles. If he has any paperwork/emails then stick them in the car: I'd be willing to bet he will be fine.
		
Click to expand...

Y, bumped into a couple of cops today who I play golf with mentioned the normal dog walkers laybye has the cars back and they just shrug and said they weren't able to do anything worthwhile to stop it so basically have given up, and I can't blame them.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Engage brain before going anywhere near a keyboard.
		
Click to expand...

There's a dangerous assumption in that post


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Yup, and me. 

Click to expand...

yes yes I know, April fools....


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## patricks148 (Apr 1, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			yes yes I know, April fools.... 

Click to expand...

loving the new avatar..


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## pokerjoke (Apr 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			All the staff at HID's school have been asked to log in for a conference call at 6.00 so guessing it's closing and staff redundancies afoot. I hope I'm wrong but can't see any reason to get all staff together at one time
		
Click to expand...

Redundancy?
What happens when it opens again


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			loving the new avatar..

Click to expand...


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Redundancy?
What happens when it opens again
		
Click to expand...

That's the point. Big fear is it's out of cash and no longer capable of operating. Happened to a similar school not far away in Camberley that's now shut their doors. Whether there is a "war chest" of a way of getting a cash injection I don't know. If not I can't see how it would be able to operate as a viable business with no fees coming in. Not to dissimilar in some ways to the fate of golf clubs at the moment


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

I know we don't always see eye to eye but genuinely sorry to hear about your loss and the crap his son is having to go through to do the right thing for your brother


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## DRW (Apr 1, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Redundancy?
What happens when it opens again
		
Click to expand...

It probably wont be opening again, a number of private schools have been struggling for a while to make 'money', its quite a tough business to succeed in.

Don't know if homers school is the same as ones up here, where you tend to pay by the term and up here they have a lot of foreign students and would imagine they wont be returning for quite a while, could mean a few close due to that alone.

The virus is hitting businesses hard already, from cashflow to profits. The furlough payments system is not up and running still and wont be until end of April at the earliest, bit like self employed payment wont be until June. Money is not really coming in from customers either and some do not have the funds to pay up front.

All very sad.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			That's the point. Big fear is it's out of cash and no longer capable of operating. Happened to a similar school not far away in Camberley that's now shut their doors. Whether there is a "war chest" of a way of getting a cash injection I don't know. If not I can't see how it would be able to operate as a viable business with no fees coming in. Not to dissimilar in some ways to the fate of golf clubs at the moment
		
Click to expand...

They should still be able to furlough staff rather than making them redundant.

That’s the whole point of the scheme


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I might fundamentally disagree with Sunak's politics - however in respect of how he has spoken in any briefing he has given I sense an authenticity that I can believe in (though of course he might be talking complete b*****ks)
		
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TBF he is talking in figures and spreadsheets!
It’s very easy spending other people’s money.
Most of the things he is talking about are fiscal .
Everyone else is just guessing at the moment, guided by the science.
So making him look decisive in the process,
Time will tell.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

Another horrendous increase today - 563 deaths yesterday.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Another horrendous increase today - 563 deaths yesterday.
		
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We were warned that the next 2 weeks will see a major increase.
To be honest they have been talking about keeping it under 20k
Sad times


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

Not that it makes it less terrible - the 563 might include the community deaths that previously were not being included in the numbers.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that it makes it less terrible - the 563 might include the community deaths that previously were not being included in the numbers.
		
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A further 563 patients with coronavirus have died in the UK, taking the total number of deaths *in hospitals *to 2,352.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52122761


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

It is generally accepted that we are 2 to 3 weeks behind Italy and Spain.

On March 16, Italy had 27,000 cases in total, 2148 deaths in total, and a daily high of 349 deaths.

For Spain, the stats for the same date is 10k cases in total, total deaths 342, daily total 191

Our figures are 29,474 cases, 2352 total deaths, and a daily total of 563.

So, as grim as it sounds, I'd say there is evidence that it could be worse here than in either of those 2 countries.

source - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


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## MegaSteve (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Horrendous news at any time... Current situation adding to the difficulties of get everything sorted not helping...
My thoughts are with you and your family at this time...


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## Robster59 (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It is generally accepted that we are 2 to 3 weeks behind Italy and Spain.

On March 16, Italy had 27,000 cases in total, 2148 deaths in total, and a daily high of 349 deaths.

For Spain, the stats for the same date is 10k cases in total, total deaths 342, daily total 191

Our figures are 29,474 cases, 2352 total deaths, and a daily total of 563.

So, as grim as it sounds, I'd say there is evidence that it could be worse here than in either of those 2 countries.

source - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Click to expand...

And yet people still complain about the restrictions.  I can see more draconian rules being put in as some people still aren't listening. 
We're doing everything we can to avoid infection, but it's the numpties who aren't that cause us concern.  Sometimes you have to work to the lowest common denominator, and at the moment that seems to be pretty low.

You have to wonder what the heck is going to happen in the USA where they have been so slow reacting and still in a disjointed fashion.  
Interesting video here from the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...-us-death-rates-v-china-italy-and-south-korea

It sounds harsh but you do wonder if the two young people who died thought they wouldn't be as affected and so didn't treat it the same way somebody at risk would.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 1, 2020)

With all the continuous hand washing and my homemade (well over strength) sanitiser... Our hands are totally dried up/split... So, herself has been seeking out her stash of Xmas and birthday 'smellies' for the hand/moisturiser creams... If nothing else we'll have some lovely smelling hands at the end of this...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With all the continuous hand washing and my homemade (well over strength) sanitiser... Our hands are totally dried up/split... So, herself has been seeking out her stash of Xmas and birthday 'smellies' for the hand/moisturiser creams... If nothing else we'll have some lovely smelling hands at the end of this...
		
Click to expand...

Mine likewise - going flaky even using hand cream - and showing a rash if I scratch - my wife is warning me to *not *scratch if they feel itchy as I risk dermatitis.


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## Lump (Apr 1, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With all the continuous hand washing and my homemade (well over strength) sanitiser... Our hands are totally dried up/split... So, herself has been seeking out her stash of Xmas and birthday 'smellies' for the hand/moisturiser creams... If nothing else we'll have some lovely smelling hands at the end of this...
		
Click to expand...

As someone who works outside in all weathers. 
This is the best product I’ve found to combat dried/split hands- https://www.okeeffesco.co.uk/products/okeeffes-working-hands/
can be found in almost every super market for about £7 a tube.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 1, 2020)

Lump said:



			As someone who works outside in all weathers.
This is the best product I’ve found to combat dried/split hands- https://www.okeeffesco.co.uk/products/okeeffes-working-hands/
can be found in almost every super market for about £7 a tube.
		
Click to expand...

£7 a tube? I'd be wanting it to massage my hands and give me a happy ending for that! But then, I am a Fifer.


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## DRW (Apr 1, 2020)

I love conspiracy stories and cant help to think the CO19 has been around for longer than Dec 19:-

https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-19-further-evidence-virus-originated-us/5706078


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It is generally accepted that we are 2 to 3 weeks behind Italy and Spain.

On March 16, Italy had 27,000 cases in total, 2148 deaths in total, and a daily high of 349 deaths.

For Spain, the stats for the same date is 10k cases in total, total deaths 342, daily total 191

Our figures are 29,474 cases, 2352 total deaths, and a daily total of 563.

So, as grim as it sounds, I'd say there is evidence that it could be worse here than in either of those 2 countries.

source - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Click to expand...

its not generally accepted. that's just the media crap.  they've been saying for 3 weeks that we are 2 weeks behind but (at the moment)  we are tracking a different path to Italy and Spain. 2 weeks ago on the 19th March Italy was on 3405 deaths. what are we? 2220?


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## Wolf (Apr 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			2 things from today as to how its affected us.

1. Wife finally got email from Mike Ashley's mob stating she is to be furloughed from April.

2*. Just had an answerphone from the Navy's reserve team asking me to get contact with them or my old unit/local unit with regards to Covid-19 sanctions and requirements, when contacting them to quote my service number that's all it said. This is going to an interesting call back to them* 🤔
		
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It's a day of phone calls today

Further to this one I made the call, turns out was for recruitment due to Covid-19 there is unsurprisingly a record low number of enquiries for recruitment and because they're having to make allowances and waivers for certain aspects of training & recruitment process they've been contacting former RN/RM personnel still within the active service age range to enquire if they'd like to rejoin with a preference of getting those Rejoiners to re-trade into Submarine service trades where there's a specific shortage. Have to admit I found the idea quite tempting not sure the Mrs likes it though 😂

But on the positive side, I've also had a 30mins call with my boss from my new MOD role, despite lock down my new job is going ahead with effect from 6th April but because of lock down I will be starting on full pay but working from home. So today has solved any potential financial problems we may have faced in one hit.


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

this is an interesting read. especially regarding how deaths are recorded 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654


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## backwoodsman (Apr 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			It's a day of phone calls today

Further to this one I made the call, turns out was for recruitment due to Covid-19 there is unsurprisingly a record low number of enquiries for recruitment and because they're having to make allowances and waivers for certain aspects of training & recruitment process they've been contacting former RN/RM personnel still within the active service age range to enquire if they'd like to rejoin with a preference of getting those Rejoiners to re-trade into Submarine service trades where there's a specific shortage. Have to admit I found the idea quite tempting not sure the Mrs likes it though 😂

But on the positive side, I've also had a 30mins call with my boss from my new MOD role, despite lock down my new job is going ahead with effect from 6th April but because of lock down I will be starting on full pay but working from home. So today has solved any potential financial problems we may have faced in one hit.
		
Click to expand...

Ah well, at least there is some good news around.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			its not generally accepted. that's just the media crap.  they've been saying for 3 weeks that we are 2 weeks behind but (at the moment)  we are tracking a different path to Italy and Spain. 2 weeks ago on the 19th March Italy was on 3405 deaths. what are we? 2220?
		
Click to expand...

How do you know it "just media crap"? Us being 2 weeks behind has been quoted extensively at Govt briefings. If was just media crap, I would have thought the Chief Scientific Officer might have had something to say about that.

The 2 weeks is obviously not an exact measure, but I've no idea why you are quoting the Italian figure for 19th March which is 12 days ago, not 14. 

On March 17 (2 weeks ago yesterday) the figure for Italy was 2503. Our figure for yesterday is 2352, so we are pretty damn close to them.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With all the continuous hand washing and my homemade (well over strength) sanitiser... Our hands are totally dried up/split... So, herself has been seeking out her stash of Xmas and birthday 'smellies' for the hand/moisturiser creams... If nothing else we'll have some lovely smelling hands at the end of this...
		
Click to expand...

Aldi do some good hand moisturiser at a very competitive price.  Look for the max strength stuff with the red cap on the tube.


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## Wolf (Apr 1, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Ah well, at least there is some good news around.  

Click to expand...

Was definitely some well needed good news and means less stress all round plus means no need to dip into the savings pot and gives me something to focus the mind during the day. 

If it hadn't been for the good news call I would really have been tempted to return to service and as a Submariner at least that would be paid quarantine 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			this is an interesting read. especially regarding how deaths are recorded
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

Click to expand...

Indeed!


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			How do you know it "just media crap"? Us being 2 weeks behind has been quoted extensively at Govt briefings. If was just media crap, I would have thought the Chief Scientific Officer might have had something to say about that.

The 2 weeks is obviously not an exact measure, but I've no idea why you are quoting the Italian figure for 19th March which is 12 days ago, not 14.

On March 17 (2 weeks ago yesterday) the figure for Italy was 2503. Our figure for yesterday is 2352, so we are pretty damn close to them.
		
Click to expand...

the fact that two weeks ago Italy had more deaths than us and the government chart shows a clear deviation from the Italian trend. how much more clear can that be?
id like you to post one link from the government that says we are two weeks behind Italy.   you might find one from February saying we "might" be but that hasn't been repeated because we are clearly not two weeks behind them.  we are aligned to France according to the governments stats


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Was definitely some well needed good news and means less stress all round plus means no need to dip into the savings pot and gives me something to focus the mind during the day.

If it hadn't been for the good news call I would really have been tempted to return to service and as a Submariner at least that would be paid quarantine 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

All ways fancied subs, if I had started all over again I think that would be a first choice


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## MegaSteve (Apr 1, 2020)

Lump said:



			As someone who works outside in all weathers. 
This is the best product I’ve found to combat dried/split hands- https://www.okeeffesco.co.uk/products/okeeffes-working-hands/
can be found in almost every super market for about £7 a tube.
		
Click to expand...




Hacker Khan said:



			Aldi do some good hand moisturiser at a very competitive price.  Look for the max strength stuff with the red cap on the tube.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers guys 👍...

My working life involved the use of chemical processes and after fifty years my hands were as tuff as the proverbial old boots... Two years into retirement and I've now got fairy hands 😞... All be it currently all dried out...


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## Wolf (Apr 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			All ways fancied subs, if I had started all over again I think that would be a first choice
		
Click to expand...

I've been on a sub before, did some launch drills with ribs on them few years back and asolutely loved it. 

Its something that has always intrigued me and would have been a route I would have fancy if I hadn't succeed as an RM. Even now the opportunity is sorely tempting I'd love to give SET a go and earn the Dolphins to give the full set of Commando Dagger, Parachute Wings & Dolphins. That would be the ultimate complete collection. Plus a 5k golden handshake wouldn't hurt 😂


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			the fact that two weeks ago Italy had more deaths than us and the government chart shows a clear deviation from the Italian trend. how much more clear can that be?
id like you to post one link from the government that says we are two weeks behind Italy.   you might find one from February saying we "might" be but that hasn't been repeated because we are clearly not two weeks behind them.  we are aligned to France according to the governments stats
		
Click to expand...


U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson warned on Sunday that a surge of coronavirus cases over the next two weeks could cripple the country's National Health Service (NHS), Reuters reports.

Why it matters: Johnson said the U.K., in terms of cases, is only "a matter of weeks — two or three — behind Italy," which overtook China last week as the country with the most reported deaths from the virus.

That's from 22nd March (last week), that good enough for you?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ax...nhs-6f9319a9-ac56-48b8-bd27-d1e7976b3734.html


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson warned on Sunday that a surge of coronavirus cases over the next two weeks could cripple the country's National Health Service (NHS), Reuters reports.

Why it matters: Johnson said the U.K., in terms of cases, is only "a matter of weeks — two or three — behind Italy," which overtook China last week as the country with the most reported deaths from the virus.

That's from 22nd March (last week), that good enough for you?
		
Click to expand...

yes that's right.  he said that will happen if we don't stick to the advice. it was a warning of what will happen.
*What he's saying: *“Unless we act together, unless we make the heroic and collective national effort to slow the spread — then it is all too likely that our own NHS will be similarly overwhelmed,” Johnson said, according to Reuters.
turn on your TV.

 not only 30 seconds ago they said we are not on the same path.  litteraly 30 seconds ago.   the fact are facts.


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## DRW (Apr 1, 2020)

Hard to think we are not on a similar path:-






Hope its a wrong indicator tho.


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

DRW said:



			Hard to think we are not on a similar path:-






Hope its a wrong indicator tho.
		
Click to expand...

that is not the graph the government are using


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			yes that's right.  he said that will happen if we don't stick to the advice
turn on your TV.  not only 30 seconds ago they said we are not on the same path.  litteraly 30 secs ago.  I'll take their advice over yours thanks.
		
Click to expand...


Dear me. You really are clutching at straws. You challenged me to post a link where the govt said we were 2 weeks behind Italy. I did exactly that. Give up gracefully.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

The daily briefing - well on testing - and without being critical - I am afraid that I found that very worrying.


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Dear me. You really are clutching at straws. You challenged me to post a link where the govt said we were 2 weeks behind Italy. I did exactly that. Give up gracefully.
		
Click to expand...

you posted a link where the priminster said if we don't act we'll be in the same position as Italy.     how is that being in the same position? you're reading between the lines.
don't take my word for it.  watch bbc news on +1 and see all the facts for yourself in their full glory.  when you've finished please post if you think we're on the same path or not


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 1, 2020)

Wolf said:



			It's a day of phone calls today

Further to this one I made the call, turns out was for recruitment due to Covid-19 there is unsurprisingly a record low number of enquiries for recruitment and because they're having to make allowances and waivers for certain aspects of training & recruitment process they've been contacting former RN/RM personnel still within the active service age range to enquire if they'd like to rejoin with a preference of getting those Rejoiners to re-trade into Submarine service trades where there's a specific shortage. Have to admit I found the idea quite tempting not sure the Mrs likes it though 😂

But on the positive side, I've also had a 30mins call with my boss from my new MOD role, despite lock down my new job is going ahead with effect from 6th April but because of lock down I will be starting on full pay but working from home. So today has solved any potential financial problems we may have faced in one hit.
		
Click to expand...

Good to hear on the job front 🍻


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			you posted a link where the priminster said if we don't act we'll be in the same position as Italy.     how is that being in the same position? you're reading between the lines.
don't take my word for it.  watch bbc news on +1 and see all the facts for yourself in their full glory.  when you've finished please post if you think we're on the same path or not
		
Click to expand...

how about you look at the graph above and honestly try to tell me we are not on the same path as Italy? Or are you suggesting the graph and the data behind it is wrong?


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## pendodave (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The daily briefing - well on testing - and without being critical - I am afraid that I found that very worrying.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of words, but however you rearranged them, no particularly useful info/answers.
I wonder how much this is command/control within the NHS and how much is in the gift of the government?


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			how about you look at the graph above and honestly try to tell me we are not on the same path as Italy? Or are you suggesting the graph and the data behind it is wrong?
		
Click to expand...

WHAT!!!!! a graph from "true publica" or the graph that the government just put on the TV for the World to see.     watch the daily briefing!
here is the problem.  getting info from the Web and spounting it about.  I have given you the opportunity to look at the governments stats and your choosing a random screen shot instead


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## Imurg (Apr 1, 2020)

Give it a rest Guys
Its depressing enough without arguing about whether we're all going to die or just some of us.....


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			WHAT!!!!! a graph from "true publica" or the graph that the government just put on the TV for the World to see.     watch the daily briefing!
here is the problem.  getting info from the Web and spounting it about.  I have given you the opportunity to look at the governments stats and your choosing a random screen shot instead
		
Click to expand...

The graph above is from the FT.

Why don't you post the latest govt one instead of asking me to watch TV for an hour in the hope of seeing it?


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The graph above is from the FT.

Why don't you post the latest govt one instead of asking me to watch TV for an hour in the hope of seeing it?
		
Click to expand...

because they quoted it 20 minutes ago.  I wouldn't know how to find it.   it was shown at about 5.10 so at 6.10 you'll have it all see


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			The graph above is from the FT.

Why don't you post the latest govt one instead of asking me to watch TV for an hour in the hope of seeing it?
		
Click to expand...

yesterday's


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			because they quoted it 20 minutes ago.  I wouldn't know how to find it.   it was shown at about 5.10 so at 6.10 you'll have it all see
		
Click to expand...

I assume you mean this graph which shows us on an almost identical trajectory to Italy?


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			I assume you mean this graph which shows us on an almost identical trajectory to Italy?
		
Click to expand...

that's not the new one (see my post one back)  even that one shows a clear difference.  just because the curve is the same doesn't mean the deaths are. the scale is tight on the graph.  bbc briefing on +1 is about to start.  have a look
oh, and now you've gone to "almost identical "?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			that's not the new one (see my post one back)  even that one shows a clear difference.  just because the curve is the same doesn't mean the deaths are. the scale is tight on the graph.  bbc briefing on +1 is about to start.  have a look
		
Click to expand...

That's a screenshot from the broadcast you asked me to watch😀

I'm out now, this is getting surreal!


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Give it a rest Guys
Its depressing enough without arguing about whether we're all going to die or just some of us.....

Click to expand...

That worked then


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## IainP (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			the fact that two weeks ago Italy had more deaths than us and the government chart shows a clear deviation from the Italian trend. how much more clear can that be?
id like you to post one link from the government that says we are two weeks behind Italy.   you might find one from February saying we "might" be but that hasn't been repeated because we are clearly not two weeks behind them.  we are aligned to France according to the governments stats
		
Click to expand...

Over on the "maths" thread we've chatted about being 16 days behind Italy for a bit.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Leukemia is indeed a high risk cancer and so yes the letter and advice to isolate absolutely applies.

My wife is 3 yrs into the 'maintenance' phase post chemo/radio/operation for BC, and the guidance from the Breast Cancer experts (and she works with them) is that those at high risk are either _*in *_*chemo* - or in the *first 3 months post-chemo.*  What my wife's team is finding (from calls to the helpline from women such as her) is that the NHS has quite sensibly taken a very broad-brush approach to catch as many women as possible - so some women who are 7-8yrs+ post chemo have got the letter.

The guidance being provided by BCN on an individual basis is that many women who got the letter have a risk not much higher - if higher at all - than the population risk.  The guidance in the letter is that women such as my wife should just check their individual risk with their specialist nurse; with their oncologist, or if way past end of treatment with such as Breast Cancer Now.

My point is that if my wife panics (as she did) on receipt of the letter, even knowing what she knows, then many who will have received the letter will also panic - and that is absolutely understandable.  But many getting the letter should be reassured to know of the approach the NHS has taken - and just check with their specialist support.
		
Click to expand...


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am afraid that in the briefing yesterday Gove came across yesterday in his usual oleaginous and condescending lecturing way...

I am struggling to keep the faith.  The mouthpieces that Johnson is putting out front are doing nothing for the credibility of the message and the approach.
		
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Perhaps you could struggle in silence. 😀
Do you really think this government and its ministers are not trying their best. They may not be succeeding on all fronts, but it is easy to throw accusations about on a political basis.
I believe someone has said Gove was lying about the chemical reagents.
Really?  Do you think he'd do that, on this subject? Knowing how easy it is/has been to hear from the manufacturers?
Imagine you ask the army of civil servants for facts to give the Press, and you are given wrong info/figures etc ( as is the way of it). Does that make you a liar?
Come on, this is a national crisis- keep the political accusations out of it.


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## IainP (Apr 1, 2020)

IainP said:



			Over on the "maths" thread we've chatted about being 16 days behind Italy for a bit.
		
Click to expand...

To flesh that out
Italy 12 March   1015      UK 28 March   1019
Italy 13 March   1266      UK 29 March   1228
Italy 15 March   1809      UK 31 March   1789
Italy 16 March   2158      UK 01 April     2352
Italy 17 March   2503
Italy 18 March   2979

A big number in UK again would move it back closer to 14 days as it was earlier on.


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## Slime (Apr 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Perhaps you could struggle in silence. 😀
Do you really think this government and its ministers are not trying their best. They may not be succeeding on all fronts, but it is easy to throw accusations about on a political basis.
I believe someone has said Gove was lying about the chemical reagents.
Really?  Do you think he'd do that, on this subject? Knowing how easy it is/has been to hear from the manufacturers?
Imagine you ask the army of civil servants for facts to give the Press, and you are given wrong info/figures etc ( as is the way of it). Does that make you a liar?
Come on, this is a national crisis- *keep the political accusations out of it.*

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, for some people, that's just not possible, no matter how hard they pretend to try.


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## User20204 (Apr 1, 2020)

A couple weeks back I said we'd be at 5000 deaths by the end of the month, seems I'm probably a week out.


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

my computer skills are quite limited. can anyone explain what was meant when they said figures have jumped alot this week because we have included deaths outside hospital.   then I saw earlier that today's figures are *inside hospital. *does this mean we'll only get one set of figures from now on?


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 1, 2020)

Wife just got a letter from Scottish Executive, telling her to self isolate for 12 weeks due to her being high risk.
Even in the house she is to keep isolated from the rest of us as best possible, not to sleep with anybody not even me🤔
My son and daughter have not been out for 10 days apart from a walk, myself I've been doing the shopping and chemist runs.
Now decided to food shop online and get my sister to drop of bread and milk every 5 days or so.
As long as none of us have been outside for the next couple of weeks we can relax the social isolation a bit within the house.
However even if they relaxed the restrictions in a month or so any golf for me will be with the dawn chorus until we're back to normality.

Listen guys things are miserable enough without coming on here and bickering about graphs and how many are going to die, one member just lost his brother so give it a rest.

Tough times ahead and it will hit some families more than others, so everyone needs to do their bit to get through this as best we can.


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## Hobbit (Apr 1, 2020)

For those guys looking at graphs and numbers, the European CDC did a modelling exercise in 2016 basing it on a pandemic similar to Spanish flu, i.e. the R=1.7 infection rate. I won't go into the detail as there's reams and reams of it. The US did something very similar the following year, as had the WHO 2 years previously. All 3 models pretty much came to the same conclusions.

Go knock yourselves out, but prepare yourself to be reading for hours. Remember, what you've been saying about the graphs you're arguing over is information that's very crude for making predictions from. They give historical numbers and don't take into account any changes the govts impose mid-flow.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

The figures the Govt are releasing are based on admissons to hospitals. I’d guess whatever the figures they release are, you can add at least another 10% on and you’d still be nowhere near the actual death rate.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 1, 2020)

I think the government made a big mistake when this all kicked off, by stating that younger people will probably only get a minor flu type illness.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 1, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I think the government made a big mistake when this all kicked off, by stating that younger people will probably only get a minor flu type illness.
		
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Keyword there is probably. 0.2% of deaths based on china will be ages 10-19. most people will survive. Only 2.3% will die.


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## pendodave (Apr 1, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I think the government made a big mistake when this all kicked off, by stating that younger people will probably only get a minor flu type illness.
		
Click to expand...

Has the maths changed on this? 


Stuart_C said:



			The figures the Govt are releasing are based on admissons to hospitals. I’d guess whatever the figures they release are, you can add at least another 10% on and you’d still be nowhere near the actual death rate.
		
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The figures are also deaths WITH Corona, not BY, so given that most of them are already ill or very old, you could revise it down a bit...


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Has the maths changed on this?

The figures are also deaths WITH Corona, not BY, so given that most of them are already ill or very old, you could revise it down a bit...
		
Click to expand...

some Dr on the news this morning said that if you take the numbers that actually die of corona vs the life's saved from the usual 8000 that die of flue but many won't because of the measures.  it will offset it that makes sense.
no idea where he got his figures but interesting


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## williamalex1 (Apr 1, 2020)

I don't know about the maths but some younger people didn't think it serious enough for them to take care not to pass it on to others.


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## Billysboots (Apr 1, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

The above is worth a read. The death toll is high and this virus awful, but the article puts the figures into some sort of context.


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## User20204 (Apr 1, 2020)

What member has lost a brother ? To the virus ?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 1, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I don't know about the maths but some younger people didn't think it serious enough for them to take care not to pass it on to others.
		
Click to expand...

Yes and your previous post regards the government statement did not give them course for concern. 

But it’s not one age group, it’s people who think they are strong and healthy and those who get minimal symptoms and not self isolating because they think it’s just a cold ..


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## fundy (Apr 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately my brother passed away yesterday (he lived in Liverpool in sheltered accommodation) his eldest son who is his next of kin lives in Swindon.

The Coroners Office have been great and can do a lot of what needs to be done over the phone.

The manager of the Sheltered accommodation can only give access to my brothers flat to his NOK and that can’t be changed even in this current climate.

His son had therefore arranged to drive to Liverpool today and get what paperwork he needs from his dad’s flat to make the necessary arrangements with the Coroner, Funeral Director etc etc.

He contacted his local Police in Swindon to check on travel and has been told his journey (officially) does not come under the category of essential and he should not travel, then he’s told (unofficially) he could try and make the journey, but if stopped he faces either being turned back or given a warning, but if he continues and is stopped again he could be forced to turn round or fined, it’ll be down to the Copper that stops him!

Absolutely ridiculous, how on earth when the lad has lost his dad should he be faced with this dilemma.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a prime example of the confusion over the laws that have been brought in.


I’ve searched the Government websites for any advice or way round this and come up empty, if anyone can help it would be most appreciated.
		
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So sorry to hear  best wishes to you and your family


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2020)

Well a ying/yang outcome gor HID. Quite frustrating in fact. One of those typical conference calls where the leader waffles around the subject, nothing much said other than things like "plans are in place"  and then finishes by saying each group (admin, TA's estates, teachers etc) will have their own individual conference calls tomorrow. On the plus side nothing serious announced for now but she's now worrying why each group getting their own message tomorrow. See what that brings


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Perhaps you could struggle in silence. 😀
Do you really think this government and its ministers are not trying their best. They may not be succeeding on all fronts, but it is easy to throw accusations about on a political basis.
I believe someone has said Gove was lying about the chemical reagents.
Really?  Do you think he'd do that, on this subject? Knowing how easy it is/has been to hear from the manufacturers?
Imagine you ask the army of civil servants for facts to give the Press, and you are given wrong info/figures etc ( as is the way of it). Does that make you a liar?
Come on, this is a national crisis- keep the political accusations out of it.
		
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I am not making ANY political points and I am not alone in having concerns over what I am hearing. I want to know what the heck is going on with testing because we are hearing the same words night after night from ministers who seem unable to answer the questions and instead give us the same line knowing the questioner has no follow-up.  

Much of what I heard today really worried me because it sounded like we are weeks away from serious numbers of healthcare staff being tested.  At the moment I hear that 1 in 4 doctors are not at work and 1 in 5 nurses, as they are isolating with symptoms or possible symptoms.  That sounds like a recipe for disaster as the numbers infected and requiring medical attention starts to accelerate.


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## Slime (Apr 1, 2020)

I find this quite staggering, unless I'm reading it wrong, and I don't think I am.

2,352 deaths in UK linked to Coronavirus.

The Office for National Statistics is now trying to determine the proportion of these deaths that are caused *specifically* by coronavirus. 
Similar work in Italy suggested about 12% of them were.


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## User20204 (Apr 1, 2020)

Slime said:



			I find this quite staggering, unless I'm reading it wrong, and I don't think I am.

2,352 deaths in UK linked to Coronavirus.

The Office for National Statistics is now trying to determine the proportion of these deaths that are caused *specifically* by coronavirus.
Similar work in Italy suggested about 12% of them were.
		
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That is why the German fatality rate is so low compared to others, they only count the deaths specifically due to CV19 for example, 77,000 cases yet only 891 deaths, where France has 56,000 cases and 4000+ deaths, UK, 29,000 cases and 2300 deaths.


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## Old Skier (Apr 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not making ANY political points and I am not alone in having concerns over what I am hearing. I want to know what the heck is going on with testing because we are hearing the same words night after night from ministers who seem unable to answer the questions and instead give us the same line knowing the questioner has no follow-up. 

Much of what I heard today really worried me because it sounded like we are weeks away from serious numbers of healthcare staff being tested.  At the moment I hear that 1 in 4 doctors are not at work and 1 in 5 nurses, as they are isolating with symptoms or possible symptoms.  That sounds like a recipe for disaster as the numbers infected and requiring medical attention starts to accelerate.
		
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Sounds like there is no national strategy on testing with individual Trust and organisation being left to sort their own priorities when it comes to testing and issuing PPE. I never liked all this trust rubbish and they need to come back under one umbrella. It would save a fortune in CEO and admin costs.


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## fundy (Apr 1, 2020)

Slime said:



			I find this quite staggering, unless I'm reading it wrong, and I don't think I am.

2,352 deaths in UK linked to Coronavirus.

The Office for National Statistics is now trying to determine the proportion of these deaths that are caused *specifically* by coronavirus.
Similar work in Italy suggested about 12% of them were.
		
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few days old but this appear a decent read to put things into perspective a bit. one thing is for sure comparing countries stats is definitely not comparing apples with apples!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think


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## harpo_72 (Apr 1, 2020)

Alright bit of a moan.. 
why if the virus can sit on cardboard for 24hrs are we still receiving junk mail.. I mean the postmen are doing a great job, why put them at unnecessary risk and us ? 
The irony of isolating yourself for protection and the damn virus comes through your letter box !


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## fundy (Apr 1, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Alright bit of a moan..
why if the virus can sit on cardboard for 24hrs are we still receiving junk mail.. I mean the postmen are doing a great job, why put them at unnecessary risk and us ?
The irony of isolating yourself for protection and the damn virus comes through your letter box !
		
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some of the scottish mail guys gone on strike because of this!


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## Imurg (Apr 1, 2020)

We haven't had any junk mail all week ....
Makes a change


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## fundy (Apr 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			We haven't had any junk mail all week ....
Makes a change
		
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only leafletter we've had I was about to give both barrels to (out of the window  ) until it turned out he was leafletting for a local taxi firm offering food/prescription collection services


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2020)

fundy said:



			few days old but this appear a decent read to put things into perspective a bit. one thing is for sure comparing countries stats is definitely not comparing apples with apples!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think

Click to expand...

Seems extremely sensible and balanced, but I doubt it will be considered by the decision makers.


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## Billysboots (Apr 1, 2020)

fundy said:



			few days old but this appear a decent read to put things into perspective a bit. one thing is for sure comparing countries stats is definitely not comparing apples with apples!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think

Click to expand...

Those worrying themselves to sleep at night really need to read this. There are a number of similar articles out there, but few penned by someone as well placed as this author to pass comment.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

Just found this, very informative. 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/prog...scientist-makes-breakthrough-on-covid-19-cure


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## hovis (Apr 1, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Those worrying themselves to sleep at night really need to read this. There are a number of similar articles out there, but few penned by someone as well placed as this author to pass comment.
		
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i really don't know how to take articles like this.  it makes sense and seems reasonable. I also find myself agreeing with his findings.  but then I think "why would the government pretty much bankrupt itself for something that is compared to the flue"?    are we over reacting? are world governments over reacting?.  I'm not sure.


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## yandabrown (Apr 1, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Seems extremely sensible and balanced, but I doubt it will be considered by the decision makers.
		
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For me he loses it when he states "These figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu). ", we know that the figures are shooting up, in fact doubled since he made the report. If they keep going up at that rate (and no reason to assume that they would not without any interventions) then there would be 40 Million deaths in the next 3 months, compare that to his statement "On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year." Surely we have to be trying to do something to prevent that?


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## Billysboots (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			i really don't know how to take articles like this.  it makes sense and seems reasonable. I also find myself agreeing with his findings.  but then I think "why would the government pretty much bankrupt itself for something that is compared to the flue"?    are we over reacting? are world governments over reacting?.  I'm not sure.
		
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It can only be because of the strain the pandemic is placing on health services. 

There is absolutely no doubt that the virus is highly contagious and can cause significant issues, especially amongst the elderly and those with severe underlying conditions. And the pace with which it is spreading and hospitalising people is such that the NHS will rapidly struggle to cope with its normal seasonal influx of patients, never mind heart, cancer and other patients.

If some of these articles are to be believed, then a huge driver behind this has to be protecting health services.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			i really don't know how to take articles like this.  it makes sense and seems reasonable. I also find myself agreeing with his findings.  but then I think "why would the government pretty much bankrupt itself for something that is compared to the flue"?    are we over reacting? are world governments over reacting?.  I'm not sure.
		
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Because the scientists currently in post have told them that this is what it is and they have taken the safe course of action; if we are skint but alive they can at least claim to have saved our necks & try to rebuild.  If they don't take the action & there are mass deaths, they've got no defence and nowhere to hide.  

I don't intend this as a criticism of their actions, as had I had to make the decision I can't honestly say I would have done anything different.

If nothing else comes from this, there needs to be some sort of clarity & unity over how the deaths are recorded as no small part of this panic appears to be caused by some of the figures which may yet prove to be wildly inaccurate.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			For me he loses it when he states "These figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu). ", we know that the figures are shooting up, in fact doubled since he made the report. If they keep going up at that rate (and no reason to assume that they would not without any interventions) then there would be 40 Million deaths in the next 3 months, compare that to his statement "On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year." Surely we have to be trying to do something to prevent that?
		
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I take your point about the figures shooting up, but has this not been caused by the decision taken to make Covid 19 a notifiable disease and by recording deaths with Covid 19 rather than deaths from Covid 19 which as he explains are extremely different.


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## yandabrown (Apr 1, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I take your point about the figures shooting up, but has this not been caused by the decision taken to make Covid 19 a notifiable disease and by recording deaths with Covid 19 rather than deaths from Covid 19 which as he explains are extremely different.
		
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Is that not just in the UK though?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 1, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Is that not just in the UK though?
		
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If it is, that is part of the problem; if we are to work together across the world to solve it, we need to be working from the same baseline.  I found the difference between the Geman and Italian statistics quite compelling.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 1, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			For me he loses it when he states "These figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu). ", we know that the figures are shooting up, in fact doubled since he made the report. If they keep going up at that rate (and no reason to assume that they would not without any interventions) then there would be 40 Million deaths in the next 3 months, compare that to his statement "On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year." Surely we have to be trying to do something to prevent that?
		
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Also when he states

_How do we measure the health consequences of taking people’s lives, jobs, leisure and purpose away from them to protect them from an anticipated threat? Which causes least harm?  The moral debate is not lives vs money. It is lives vs lives. It will take months, perhaps years, if ever, before we can assess the wider implications of what we are doing. The damage to children’s education, the excess suicides, the increase in mental health problems, the taking away of resources from other health problems that we were dealing with effectively. Those who need medical help now but won’t seek it, or might not be offered it. And what about the effects on food production and global commerce, that will have unquantifiable consequences for people of all ages, perhaps especially in developing economies? _

it reads as if it is a binary choice, relax the restrictions and none of these consequences he goes on to state will happen or keep them and deal with all this later. Where as if the virus is left to spread then there will be significant knock on effects to the NHS, economy and society as  whole in addition to just lives lost through the virus. To me the moral debate is lives plus consequences V lives plus consequences.


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## Hobbit (Apr 1, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			For me he loses it when he states "These figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with (such as flu). ", we know that the figures are shooting up, in fact doubled since he made the report. If they keep going up at that rate (and no reason to assume that they would not without any interventions) then there would be 40 Million deaths in the next 3 months, compare that to his statement "On a global basis, we’d expect 14 million to die over the first three months of the year." Surely we have to be trying to do something to prevent that?
		
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Just using your post as a vehicle, not agreeing or disagreeing with it. It raises a question,...."those figures might shoot up but they are, right now, lower than other infectious diseases that we live with(such as flu)..." if this statement is correct, why are intensive care units throughout northern Italy, Spain etc absolutely long since bust with numbers way beyond their usual winter intake? Is it lower or not? If it is lower, why are tented hospitals in evidence in Italy - (they're not empty)?


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## HampshireHog (Apr 1, 2020)

My company are cutting staff numbers by 75% globally, that’s about 12,000 people gone by Friday.  For UK staff they are being furloughed, but for sure that isn’t going to be the case across the board.


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## yandabrown (Apr 1, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If it is, that is part of the problem; if we are to work together across the world to solve it, we need to be working from the same baseline.  I found the difference between the Geman and Italian statistics quite compelling.
		
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The German numbers are still doubling every 4 days, so whilst they might have started on a less steep "slope" they are getting worse. The percentage of all cases can again be different as they seem to do more testing, certainly more than the UK. I agree that it would of course be best that all countries tested and counted in the same way, however to me the underlying trend for all contries has been exponential growth only stopped by many weeks of diligent lock down or through rigid tracing of contacts and lockdown of possible infected people.


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## chrisd (Apr 1, 2020)

Just on a different note. I and Mrs D have lockdown as required and we're saying it feels much more like life back in the 70's and 80's when we didn't go out for dinner several times a week/month to pubs or McDonald's, we did all the DIY that we could ourselves, we would paint and decorate in side the house in spring and autumn and the outside in the summer, we'd grow stuff in the garden to eat, didnt have TV on all day, not so many owned cars to go out in, no mobile phones to keep in contact with others continuously, no social media etc etc

It was a much simpler life 🤔 and much like we're experiencing now


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 1, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Alright bit of a moan..
why if the virus can sit on cardboard for 24hrs are we still receiving junk mail.. I mean the postmen are doing a great job, why put them at unnecessary risk and us ?
The irony of isolating yourself for protection and the damn virus comes through your letter box !
		
Click to expand...

Exactly right. I was commenting to friends etc about this as soon as distancingvstsrted to be talked about. In fact I think I made a post about it, saying if we still had a Postmaster General in the cabinet it would(should )?have been the first thing to be outlawed.
Absolute irresponsible behaviour.


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## Crazyface (Apr 1, 2020)

Just read that Flu can kill up to 10,000 people a year in the UK. We don't "lockdown" for that do we?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			i really don't know how to take articles like this.  it makes sense and seems reasonable. I also find myself agreeing with his findings.  but then I think "why would the government pretty much bankrupt itself for something that is compared to the flue"?    are we over reacting? are world governments over reacting?.  I'm not sure.
		
Click to expand...

Surely the point is that with the flu we have a vaccination and many of us are pretty resistant to it without a vaccination as we have been exposed to it for a long time and built up immunity.  

With the coronavirus there is no vaccine and we have no immunity.  So for instance in the US the figures if nothing was being done in respect of isolation and separation there would be upwards of 100 million contract the disease with potentially 2.2million deaths from it.  A bit different from flu.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just read that Flu can kill up to 10,000 people a year in the UK. We don't "lockdown" for that do we?
		
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Are you on a wind up or just thick?


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2020)

When arguing about graphs and trends it might be worth remembering a TRUE graph must have the vertical axis starting at zero, unless you want to distort the picture!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 1, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Are you on a wind up or just thick?
		
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I think it's a bit of both


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## chrisd (Apr 1, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just read that Flu can kill up to 10,000 people a year in the UK. We don't "lockdown" for that do we?
		
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I think between 2014 and 2018 the number was 17,000 per annum where seasonal flu was a factor


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 1, 2020)

Police chief of Liverpool said on Granada reports that “Its ok to drive a short distance to go for exercise to a quiet spot”
That is really mixed messages.
After Paul’s relative was refused permission to drive to Liverpool, so what is nessesary and what’s not.?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 1, 2020)

Just discussing the testing in our house .. is it worth doing more ? Yes but would you repeat on the same person? Could the test tell that you have had it ? 
In the end why is the test so complex and limited ? 
By having more results would it undermine the lockdown? Would it be better to say of the confirmed cases we have had x percentage of mortality? 

So in the end what would more tests offer ? They might get people out of self isolation but they won’t put people into isolation before they infect someone... I suppose, unless they track groups of possible infections.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 2, 2020)

ITV 2 having a laugh just now showing the 2011 film Contagion , about a world wide epidemic .
 Looks like they knew this Pandemic was coming


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Police chief of Liverpool said on Granada reports that “Its ok to drive a short distance to go for exercise to a quiet spot”
That is really mixed messages.
After Paul’s relative was refused permission to drive to Liverpool, so what is nessesary and what’s not.?
		
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that's just to prevent local muggings 😀


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Are you on a wind up or just thick?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm thick. Can you explain? It was something I read last night. Explain in simple terms for me, coz I'm THICK, why CV19 is worse than flu? Coz I really just don't get it.


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2020)

Also....e mails have dropped off, So that's bonus!!!!

Well I think they have. I can't count more than 10, unless I take my socks off. COZ I'M THICK !!!


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Police chief of Liverpool said on Granada reports that “Its ok to drive a short distance to go for exercise to a quiet spot”
That is really mixed messages.
After Paul’s relative was refused permission to drive to Liverpool, so what is nessesary and what’s not.?
		
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Hey maybe the Chief of police in Liverpool is THICK too. Coz he seems to have misunderstood the is required. Or he's just THICK !!!! Eh?


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I think between 2014 and 2018 the number was 17,000 per annum where seasonal flu was a factor
		
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Thank you. See 17,000. So seasonal flu is not a problem. Or have I misinterpreted your post. Coz apprently.....I'm THICK !!!!!!


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## GreiginFife (Apr 2, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Hey maybe the Chief of police in Liverpool is THICK too. Coz he seems to have misunderstood the is required. Or he's just THICK !!!! Eh?
		
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Say what?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 2, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Just discussing the testing in our house .. is it worth doing more ? Yes but would you repeat on the same person? Could the test tell that you have had it ?
In the end why is the test so complex and limited ?
By having more results would it undermine the lockdown? Would it be better to say of the confirmed cases we have had x percentage of mortality?

So in the end what would more tests offer ? They might get people out of self isolation but they won’t put people into isolation before they infect someone... I suppose, unless they track groups of possible infections.
		
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It is clear there are two fronts on which the government could and  should be doing better.
1. They must test *all Frontline NHS staff.*
2. They must PPE *all frontline staff.*
Whatever method achieves this, then do it. Boris must order Public health England to decentralise and use all sources. 
Stop all private testing pro temp and commandere their  resources for NHS testing.
I see little value in testing the general public at all.
If it doesn't impact on NHS testing, then as soon as practicable we should do the antibody test as well. NHS staff first again.
Prof Paul Cosford is saying 25000 by mid April. Others are saying that strip the blinkered attitude, decentralise and it could be sooner, and more .
Military thinking is needed here -to source testing equipment, and then get it and use it. Forget the usual paper work to do that- just get it.
Someone  has mentioned the Dunkirk spirit, when the little boats made the vital contribution- so  , use the same mentality and source this testing the same way.
Come on Boris - Kick Ass.!


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## Orikoru (Apr 2, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Maybe I'm thick. Can you explain? It was something I read last night. Explain in simple terms for me, coz I'm THICK, why CV19 is worse than flu? Coz I really just don't get it.
		
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I'm not doctor but I'm pretty sure it's like a thousand times more contagious for a start. I think the symptoms are worse. I googled it for you: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...d-19-cold-flu-difference-latest-a9389511.html 



			Why is coronavirus more dangerous than the common cold and flu and do you treat them differently?

For years, scientists have been studying flu and the common cold, meaning that a number of treatments, such as the flu jab are available to help battle against getting ill.

Because Covid-19 is new, there is no vaccination against it. Medics say it could be as long as a year before a Covid-19 vaccination is produced. Experts also fear that Covid-19 may be spreading faster than flu.
		
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For a lot of people it's no worse than the flu, but the whole point is that everybody is restricted so as not to spread the virus to people who are at risk of dying, because loads more people would catch it, and nobody has been vaccinated against, basically.

I think maybe you knew all this though, unless you've had your head in the sand for three weeks.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2020)

so the WHO are now saying masks do work and the virus can stay in the air for upto 3 days.  that's what sky news have just reported!! 😳


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just read that Flu can kill up to 10,000 people a year in the UK. We don't "lockdown" for that do we?
		
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The rather significant difference between Flu and C19 is that there's protection available for Flu, whil;e there's none (yet) for C19! And that's aside from the often more serious effects C19 can have!

I don't, yet, get vaccinated against Flu, though if my health deterioates I'll (re)consider it. But if a vaccine against C19 becomes available, I'll certainly be in the queue for it!


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## Orikoru (Apr 2, 2020)

In other news, my boss rang me this morning and told me that the lady I work with (two of us doing much the same job) has been furloughed, whereas I haven't. But he doesn't want me to pick up the extra slack thankfully, because he wants to prove to our directors that her role was justified, and he's worried that if I do the job both of us were doing they'll just lay her off permanently. But either way, I'm on my own now.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 2, 2020)

My lad got to his desk late this morning... Due to heavy traffic on the upstairs landing queuing for the bathroom 😕...


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## harpo_72 (Apr 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is clear there are two fronts on which the government could and  should be doing better.
1. They must test *all Frontline NHS staff.*
2. They must PPE *all frontline staff.*
Whatever method achieves this, then do it. Boris must order Public health England to decentralise and use all sources.
Stop all private testing pro temp and commandere their  resources for NHS testing.
I see little value in testing the general public at all.
If it doesn't impact on NHS testing, then as soon as practicable we should do the antibody test as well. NHS staff first again.
Prof Paul Cosford is saying 25000 by mid April. Others are saying that strip the blinkered attitude, decentralise and it could be sooner, and more .
Military thinking is needed here -to source testing equipment, and then get it and use it. Forget the usual paper work to do that- just get it.
Someone  has mentioned the Dunkirk spirit, when the little boats made the vital contribution- so  , use the same mentality and source this testing the same way.
Come on Boris - Kick Ass.!
		
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Quite agree, high exposure should be tested every day .. simples


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## User62651 (Apr 2, 2020)

I'm a few days in with it, yesterday afternoon I was unwell feeling weak and fluey but by evening was improved, bed at 8, today I'm not bad at all. Still feeling the chest discomfort and a little abdominal discomfort now and again but by Sat/Sun that'll be more than 7 days. Headache is lesser now too. Still a little nervous about things going south but so far so good. I'm submitting details via 'covid symptom tracker' app to Kings College London who are collating data which hopefully may prove useful, you submit your symptoms daily. The fever/persistent cough thing is not what happens in a lot of milder cases, there are a wide range of symptoms on their checklists.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 2, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Maybe I'm thick. Can you explain? It was something I read last night. Explain in simple terms for me, coz I'm THICK, why CV19 is worse than flu? Coz I really just don't get it.
		
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See post 3710.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 2, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I'm a few days in with it, yesterday afternoon I was unwell feeling weak and fluey but by evening was improved, bed at 8, today I'm not bad at all. Still feeling the chest discomfort and a little abdominal discomfort now and again but by Sat/Sun that'll be more than 7 days. Headache is lesser now too. Still a little nervous about things going south but so far so good. I'm submitting details via 'covid symptom tracker' app to Kings College London who are collating data which hopefully may prove useful, you submit your symptoms daily. The fever/persistent cough thing is not what happens in a lot of milder cases, there are a wide range of symptoms on their checklists.
		
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That’s positive and the symptoms tracker sounds like a good bit of data collection.. is it cross referenced with your positive test ( ie are they numbered ?) also do they look at your circumstances as well ? As in possible contact points, existing medical conditions and medications?


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## sam85 (Apr 2, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I'm not doctor but I'm pretty sure it's like a thousand times more contagious for a start. I think the symptoms are worse. I googled it for you: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...d-19-cold-flu-difference-latest-a9389511.html

For a lot of people it's no worse than the flu, but the whole point is that everybody is restricted so as not to spread the virus to people who are at risk of dying, because loads more people would catch it, and nobody has been vaccinated against, basically.

I think maybe you knew all this though, *unless you've had your head in the sand for three weeks.*

Click to expand...

Can't read this sort of statement now without thinking of that press conference where Nigel Pearson lost it and called a reporter an ostrich


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## Orikoru (Apr 2, 2020)

sam85 said:



			Can't read this sort of statement now without thinking of that press conference where Nigel Pearson lost it and called a reporter an ostrich 

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Maybe Crazyface _is_ an ostrich?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 2, 2020)

hovis said:



			so the WHO are now saying masks do work and the virus can stay in the air for upto 3 days.  that's what sky news have just reported!! 😳
		
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I have suppliers in the Far East who have been offering me face masks for the last two weeks. I have been turning them down as the authorities have said they largely do not work and culturally we do not like to wear them. Doh


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## User62651 (Apr 2, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s positive and the symptoms tracker sounds like a good bit of data collection.. is it cross referenced with your positive test ( ie are they numbered ?) also do they look at your circumstances as well ? As in possible contact points, existing medical conditions and medications?
		
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I haven't been formally tested, who has? Not royal or rich.🙄 They do ask for some background and health issues yes. Relevant medications are asked for too.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 2, 2020)

hovis said:



			that's just to prevent local muggings 😀
		
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Really?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 2, 2020)

Business Secretary getting slaughtered by the press after an abysmal performance at yesterday's briefing. The Telegraph is particularly scathing which must be worrying for BJ.




Wonder who they will field today? Rees Mogg? Patel?


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## Stuart_C (Apr 2, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Maybe I'm thick. Can you explain? It was something I read last night. Explain in simple terms for me, coz I'm THICK, why CV19 is worse than flu? Coz I really just don't get it.
		
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Theres no maybe about it.

I couldn't make it more simplified than what the worlds best scientists and Dr's have been doing/saying for the past month or so but I'll try.

Covid 19 is believed to have been passed from animals to humans. It's more dangerous and infectious than common flu.

So in summary, because Covid 19 is spreading 3x times faster than common flu,its infecting 3x as many people with stronger symptoms and there's no vaccine to cure or control it, not enough ICU beds for the most extreme infected, no testing kits etc  the only other way to control it is to stop the spread. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

How do we stop the spread??

 Yep you guessed it, STOP MOVING ABOUT. 

DO YOU NOW GET THE LOCKDOWN?

Theres plenty of information on it written by real experts if you ca be bothered to educate yourself, I'm not here to educate you, but going by your previous posts I think it would be impossible for me and most others to do so.


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## sam85 (Apr 2, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Maybe Crazyface _is_ an ostrich?
		
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That is a very real possibility.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Police chief of Liverpool said on Granada reports that “Its ok to drive a short distance to go for exercise to a quiet spot”
That is really mixed messages.
After Paul’s relative was refused permission to drive to Liverpool, so what is nessesary and what’s not.?
		
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I think you've missed off the bit of the interview he gave were he said " we do not want to alienate the public, we want to work with them" in response to Lancs Constabulary's overhanded approach issuing fines...... I think its sensible advice. He's not saying everyone jump in your cars and drive to go for a walk. 

Its common sense really.


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			The rather significant difference between Flu and C19 is that there's protection available for Flu, whil;e there's none (yet) for C19! And that's aside from the often more serious effects C19 can have!

I don't, yet, get vaccinated against Flu, though if my health deterioates I'll (re)consider it. But if a vaccine against C19 becomes available, I'll certainly be in the queue for it!
		
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I posted a couple of links a day or two back regarding reports that the BCG immunisation helps in reducing the effects of the Covid symptoms, unless you've had a flu jab, which then negates the BCG.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Business Secretary getting slaughtered by the press after an abysmal performance at yesterday's briefing. The Telegraph is particularly scathing which must be worrying for BJ.

View attachment 29616


Wonder who they will field today? Rees Mogg? Patel?
		
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Christ, is the Torygraph going rogue??  The impact of isolation on journalists much be worse than I expected.  I expect it will be a cold cold day in hell before Rees-Mogg is paraded as the person the nation needs to listen to in times of crisis. I expect they will just defer more to the experts in conferences, as it seems to be a pattern across the globe that if politicians speak then people are mostly a bit scpetical for many reasons and sometimes they do more harm than good (exhibit 1 your honour, Donald Trump).  Where as I think people tend to listen to and trust experts as the clue is in the their titles.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 2, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Business Secretary getting slaughtered by the press after an abysmal performance at yesterday's briefing. The Telegraph is particularly scathing which must be worrying for BJ.

View attachment 29616


Wonder who they will field today? Rees Mogg? Patel?
		
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Well I never. Let it not be said that I was impressed by him.  And likewise the Daily Mail is being highly critical of PHE.  But give it time.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...house-key-fixing-Britains-testing-fiasco.html

Compare and contrast the Business Secs performance (not that different to that in recent days of Gove or Jenrick) with that of NY Governor Andrew Cuomo in _his _briefing of 31st March.  The only difference is that Cuomo is speaking unscripted.  The BS and his colleagues are reading from a script.  Do they not feel on top of the briefing message - or is it that they must stick to the line and avoid any chance of misspeaking.  I dunno.  But it is that that really worries me - that the message to us has to be so strictly controlled.  I know which politician I would have most belief in.  Cuomo is a leader.  Just listen - first ten minutes is enough to get a feel but I found myself compelled to watch and listen on as he very clearly explained what is happening and what *has *to happen - IMO he is quite brilliant.


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## Slab (Apr 2, 2020)

Day 14 of lockin, Last time I was out of the flat was 12 days ago for food & was masked and gloved up with 2m pointy stick. I feel pretty sure I don't have Bat-Lurgy but another couple of days to be sure I guess.
Going a bit stir crazy and missing the golf but no arguments with my wife (so we must must get along ok) 14 more days confinement to go (if its not extended again). Will wait another week or so before venturing out for food

Did wake up a few days ago to see a bat had decided to lay up for the day on our balcony, a wee bit ominous but saw him off the premises & he's not been back

edit: just took rubbish out... Thursday exercise; check


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			Day 14 of lockin, Last time I was out of the flat was 12 days ago for food & was masked and gloved up with 2m pointy stick. I feel pretty sure I don't have Bat-Lurgy but another couple of days to be sure I guess.
Going a bit stir crazy and missing the golf but no arguments with my wife (so we must must get along ok) 14 more days confinement to go (if its not extended again). Will wait another week or so before venturing out for food

Did wake up a few days ago to see a bat had decided to lay up for the day on our balcony, a wee bit ominous but saw him off the premises & he's not been back

edit: just took rubbish out... Thursday exercise; check
		
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14 days.. pah, a mere walk in the (virtual) park. 19 here. Hopefully only 11 days to go.

Today's figures make grim reading. Over 110k infected. Over 10,000 dead.


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## rosecott (Apr 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Christ, is the Torygraph going rough??  The impact of isolation on journalists much be worst than I expected.  I expect it will be a cold cold day in hell before Rees-Mogg is paraded as the person the nation needs to listen to in times of crisis. I expect they will just defer more to the experts in conferences, as it seems to be a pattern across the globe that if politicians speak then people are mostly a bit scpetical for many reasons and sometimes they do more harm than good (*exhibit 1 your honour, Donald Trump*).  Where as I think people tend to listen to and trust experts as the clue is in the their titles.
		
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I try really hard to keep up, but when did Trump transform into a politician?


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2020)

my dad is getting out of hospital in a few days so I volunteered to go to his boat for a few days to higher his bed and fix his shower room. definitely taking my fishing rods to hang out the side. it'll almost be like the virus's didn't hit. we'll, almost


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 2, 2020)

Wife just got a letter from Scottish Executive, tell her to self isolate for 12 weeks due to her being high risk.
Even in the house she is to keep isolated from the rest of us as best possible, not to sleep with anybody not even me🤔
My son and daughter have not been out for 10 days apart from a walk, myself I've been doing the shopping and chemist runs.
Now decided to food shop online and get my sister to drop of bread and milk every 5 days or so.
As long as none of us have been outside for the next couple of weeks we can relax the social isolation a bit within the house.
However even if they relaxed the restrictions in a month or so any golf for me will be with the dawn chorus until we're back to normality.

Listen guys things are miserable enough without coming on here and bickering about graphs and how many are going to die, one member just lost his brother so give it a rest.

Tough times ahead and it will hit some families more than others, so everyone needs to do their bit to get through this as best we can.


Slab said:



			Day 14 of lockin, Last time I was out of the flat was 12 days ago for food & was masked and gloved up with 2m pointy stick. I feel pretty sure I don't have Bat-Lurgy but another couple of days to be sure I guess.
Going a bit stir crazy and missing the golf but no arguments with my wife (so we must must get along ok) 14 more days confinement to go (if its not extended again). Will wait another week or so before venturing out for food

Did wake up a few days ago to see a bat had decided to lay up for the day on our balcony, a wee bit ominous but saw him off the premises & he's not been back

edit: just took rubbish out... Thursday exercise; check
		
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no arguments with the wife, you must be ex military like me used to following orders😂😂


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## MegaSteve (Apr 2, 2020)

Temporary mortuaries, around the corner, have now been completed and receiving a steady stream of traffic... A friend who lives just across the road, to the entrance, tells me his wife is finding it a most distressing sight...


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## pokerjoke (Apr 2, 2020)

3500 frontline workers tested out of 550,000 an absolute disgrace imo.
Watching TV and seeing so many without PPE is another disgrace.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			The rather significant difference between Flu and C19 is that there's protection available for Flu, whil;e there's none (yet) for C19! And that's aside from the often more serious effects C19 can have!

I don't, yet, get vaccinated against Flu, though if my health deterioates I'll (re)consider it. But if a vaccine against C19 becomes available, I'll certainly be in the queue for it!
		
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Amazing how many folk do not understand that simple fact.
I had to explain it to a relative the other day who suddenly realised how serious this was after virtually breaking all of the advice rules


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 2, 2020)

No vaccine - no immunity - the virus would spread like an uncontrolled wildfire...and these can cost many lives...

What the public are we being asked to do at the moment with separation is akin to us creating as many firebreaks in the forest as possible - trying to stop the fire spreading and containing it to where our firefighters can try and put it out, whilst not getting burnt ourselves.


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## IanM (Apr 2, 2020)

Clearly not enough testing gone on.....I've no idea why or what the issues are, I hope it isn't to do with the conventional constraints Public Sector Procurement operates under.  But I guess when this is all over, we'll see who did their bit, who didn't and who just stood on the sidelines chucking rocks!


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 2, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I think you've missed off the bit of the interview he gave were he said " we do not want to alienate the public, we want to work with them" in response to Lancs Constabulary's overhanded approach issuing fines...... I think its sensible advice. He's not saying everyone jump in your cars and drive to go for a walk.

Its common sense really.
		
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Yes but that only applies to people with some common sense.
There have been plenty of incidents to prove lots of people haven't got any..
It was the mixed messages from different forces that was my main concern.!


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## Stuart_C (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but that only applies to people with some common sense.
There have been plenty of incidents to prove lots of people haven't got any..
It was the mixed messages from different forces that was my main concern.!
		
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The mixed messages coming from the top doesn’t help.

Anyway seeing as I’ve got common sense, I’m off to Sefton Park to do my exercise. Toodle pip👍🏻


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## USER1999 (Apr 2, 2020)

Went for a walk at lunch time. The Police have now taped off the car park at my local woods. It didn't stop a couple of muppets from parking in front of the tape though. I guess they think it does not apply to them.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Went for a walk at lunch time. The Police have now taped off the car park at my local woods. It didn't stop a couple of muppets from parking in front of the tape though. I guess they think it does not apply to them.
		
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Well it dosnt as the police have now said you can! In Liverpool anyway.
That’s the problem imo, if you give people a choice some will take it as a green light to do it.
But when the numbers get high again they will ban it.
Dosnt make sense mixed messages.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2020)

my friend who is recovering alcoholic said that AA is speaking to the government. apparently 80,000 people a year die of alcohol related illness and with the lockdown and no meetings they have already had a significant increase relapses/falling off the wagon.
i never actually gave any thought to things like this but quite a shame for those people effected
i wonder what the death count will add upto if you count deaths by coronavirus lockdown effects?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2020)

hovis said:



			my friend who is recovering alcoholic said that AA is speaking to the government. apparently 80,000 people a year die of alcohol related illness and with the lockdown and no meetings they have already had a significant increase relapses/falling off the wagon.
i never actually gave any thought to things like this but quite a shame for those people effected
i wonder what the death count will add upto if you count deaths by coronavirus lockdown effects?
		
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Add in potential domestics & suicides to the list of issues it might cause.  Ironically they will not be recorded as a Covid-19 death, yet someone with an underlying health issue which had them at death's door who tests positive for the Corona virus probably will.  Lies, damn lies & statistics.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2020)

Apparently there is an upside to this as the Great British public, deprived of the opportunity to drink themselves stupid and then trying to punch the living  out of each other, have stopped using the ambulance service as a minicab service to clog up A&E with their self inflicted issues.


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## USER1999 (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well it dosnt as the police have now said you can! In Liverpool anyway.
That’s the problem imo, if you give people a choice some will take it as a green light to do it.
But when the numbers get high again they will ban it.
Dosnt make sense mixed messages.
		
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For sure, it makes no sense, but if they have closed it, it's closed.


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2020)

IanM said:



			Clearly not enough testing gone on.....I've no idea why or what the issues are, I hope it isn't to do with the conventional constraints Public Sector Procurement operates under.  But I guess when this is all over, we'll see who did their bit, who didn't and who just stood on the sidelines chucking rocks!
		
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Testing is another aspect that costs the NHS considerable resources - both to set up for the expected volumes and to actually perform. That's another reason for the 'delay' tactics being applied.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			3500 frontline workers tested out of 550,000 an absolute disgrace imo.
Watching TV and seeing so many without PPE is another disgrace.
		
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The PPE issue is a strange one but after reports today that some NHS Trust are short cutting the supply chain by going direct to supplies shows a possible answer to the problem. The equipment should be distributed from the centre not by selfish individual trusts.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The PPE issue is a strange one but after reports today that some NHS Trust are short cutting the supply chain by going direct to supplies shows a possible answer to the problem. The equipment should be distributed from the centre not by selfish individual trusts.
		
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The worry would be people making money off this illegally but I’m sure there will be.
No different to charities collecting millions and not getting it all to the people it’s for.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 2, 2020)

8 o'clock tonight Scotland is calling all pipers to play Scotland the Brave and everyone to clap along for all the carers.
Hoping we have a piper in the village.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 2, 2020)

hovis said:



			my friend who is recovering alcoholic said that AA is speaking to the government. apparently 80,000 people a year die of alcohol related illness and with the lockdown and no meetings they have already had a significant increase relapses/falling off the wagon.
i never actually gave any thought to things like this but quite a shame for those people effected
*i wonder what the death count will add upto if you count deaths by coronavirus lockdown effects?*

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I'd say it is impossible to know and the government are trying to balance on an at times, impossible tightrope between keeping society functioning to some vague level of normality, keeping the economy going, keeping people alive and trying to minimise the knock on effects to whatever path they take. There is no good answer, each option is pretty s***ty as whatever happens you will have significant impacts later down the line. But I'd argue to most right thinking people, doing all you reasonably can to prevent many immediate deaths from a highly contagious virus to which there is currently no vaccine is the main priority.  Then focus on mitigating any undesirable impacts this path causes later.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 2, 2020)

hovis said:



			my friend who is recovering alcoholic said that AA is speaking to the government. apparently 80,000 people a year die of alcohol related illness and with the lockdown and no meetings they have already had a significant increase relapses/falling off the wagon.
i never actually gave any thought to things like this but quite a shame for those people effected
i wonder what the death count will add upto if you count deaths by coronavirus lockdown effects?
		
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Think your mate has too many noughts on his figures - the Office for National Statistics has it at just under 8000 (for 2018)  (Eighty thousand would be nearly 20% of the total). Still, it doesnt diminish the issue for those with a problem.


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## hovis (Apr 2, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Think your mate has too many noughts on his figures - the Office for National Statistics has it at just under 8000 (for 2018)  (Eighty thousand would be nearly 20% of the total). Still, it doesnt diminish the issue for those with a problem.
		
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nope, my friends figure was spot on it was me that added the zero! 😀 whoops,  thumbs too fat


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 2, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently there is an upside to this as the Great British public, deprived of the opportunity to drink themselves stupid and then trying to punch the living  out of each other, have stopped using the ambulance service as a minicab service to clog up A&E with their self inflicted issues.
		
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In the aftermath of all this I'm expecting to see a host of interesting statistics. I'd expect burglaries to be down, fewer empty houses, violent crime down, no one boozed up as you say, traffic accidents down etc. There will be some quirky ones as well which we won't have expected. This is an unwanted but fascinating social and psychological experiment.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			8 o'clock tonight Scotland is calling all pipers to play Scotland the Brave and everyone to clap along for all the carers.
Hoping we have a piper in the village.
		
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My god man, aren't these carers going through enough already without being subjected to that kind of torture?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In the aftermath of all this I'm expecting to see a host of interesting statistics. I'd expect burglaries to be down, fewer empty houses, violent crime down, no one boozed up as you say, traffic accidents down etc. There will be some quirky ones as well which we won't have expected. This is an unwanted but fascinating social and psychological experiment.
		
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Apparently burglaries on pubs/licensed premises and shops are up as they are unoccupied.  Whilst traffic accidents should be down, I'd consider the severity could increase as the ability to speed will be easier; I'd also expect a spike in car v. pedestrian accidents when the lockdown is lifted as all the new walkers who currently don't think traffic exists are caught out.


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In the aftermath of all this I'm expecting to see a host of interesting statistics. I'd expect burglaries to be down, fewer empty houses, violent crime down, no one boozed up as you say, traffic accidents down etc. There will be some quirky ones as well which we won't have expected. This is an unwanted but fascinating social and psychological experiment.
		
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You forgot divorces and births will be up.


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## moogie (Apr 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In the aftermath of all this I'm expecting to see a host of interesting statistics. I'd expect burglaries to be down, fewer empty houses, violent crime down, no one boozed up as you say, traffic accidents down etc. There will be some quirky ones as well which we won't have expected. This is an unwanted but fascinating social and psychological experiment.
		
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Not sure I can agree with all of that
Plenty scumbag opportunists will be well aware of which shops and businesses are still trading and which are locked up and unattended
Ripe for breaking into

Eg...... Apparently close house golf shop was broking into last night....
Post on the northumberland golf union Facebook page

But you're right though,  fascinating experiment indeed
Plenty frustrated people already

Highlight of my days right now.... Walking the dogs in the fields of the neighbouring farm👍


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My god man, aren't these carers going through enough already without being subjected to that kind of torture? 

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To be fair, the bagpipes are a fantastic social distancing device.


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## DanFST (Apr 2, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just read that Flu can kill up to 10,000 people a year in the UK. We don't "lockdown" for that do we?
		
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Are you serious? This will kill that in 2 weeks. Even with the steps we've been taking.

If today's death toll stayed the same (it will get higher) that would be 207,685 dead a year. Are you really that idiotic? 

These are real people. Jesus.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 2, 2020)

I'm killing time on the internet instead of trying to cut a six iron shot into a tight pin placement.
That's how the virus is affecting me.
It's sparing me from butchering that shot and bunkering my ball.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The PPE issue is a strange one but after reports today that some NHS Trust are short cutting the supply chain by going direct to supplies shows a possible answer to the problem. The equipment should be distributed from the centre not by selfish individual trusts.
		
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Have been getting proper tee'd off watching government officials telling us PPE is getting to where it's needed... Then seeing from the good people on the front line they are still waiting and desperate for it to arrive...

More cheerfully, just seen a bit on the telly about a local school putting its 3D printers to good use making visors... Every little bit helps 👍...


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2020)

We've gone to full escalation preparation. Main ICU now designated a "hot" covid area and the non-Covid patients now out in an outlying recovery theatre. Everything else we have up to 50 covid beds housed in ICU and theatre space. Sadly nowhere near enough vents to cover 50 beds, far less PPE gear to protect the number of staff to nurse that many patients. Just the 12 hour day again working with technicians and consultants to get the escalation processes in place. On the plus side some fantastic team spirit across the board today. We even had our CEO on the shop floor moving beds and equipment


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In the aftermath of all this I'm expecting to see a host of interesting statistics. I'd expect burglaries to be down, fewer empty houses, violent crime down, no one boozed up as you say, traffic accidents down etc. There will be some quirky ones as well which we won't have expected. This is an unwanted but fascinating social and psychological experiment.
		
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burglary has already moved from houses to cafes/bars/pubs down here


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We've gone to full escalation preparation. Main ICU now designated a "hot" covid area and the non-Covid patients now out in an outlying recovery theatre. Everything else we have up to 50 covid beds housed in ICU and theatre space. Sadly nowhere near enough vents to cover 50 beds, far less PPE gear to protect the number of staff to nurse that many patients. Just the 12 hour day again working with technicians and consultants to get the escalation processes in place. On the plus side some fantastic team spirit across the board today. We even had our CEO on the shop floor moving beds and equipment
		
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Thanks to you and all those on the front line!

Homie a question if I may, whats actually going on with PPE? Theres a massive gap between what the govt are saying and what those on the ground are saying!


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## Crazyface (Apr 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Are you serious? This will kill that in 2 weeks. Even with the steps we've been taking.

If today's death toll stayed the same (it will get higher) that would be 207,685 dead a year. Are you really that idiotic?

These are real people. Jesus.
		
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IF. Lets see in 2 weeks time.  People do recover you know. Charlie has and it looks good for PM BJ does it not. If the people of Britain do as they are told, that's another debate that's hissing me off, then we should be able to control this. But whilst we are letting people go to work, two near me should not be operating with wagons rolling all over the bluddy area, then we will be in lock down forever. It's a disgrace how these firms are just ignoring what is going on. I know both the owners of these firms and they are slave drivers and money mad.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			Thanks to you and all those on the front line!

Homie a question if I may, whats actually going on with PPE? Theres a massive gap between what the govt are saying and what those on the ground are saying!
		
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It is getting through. We are getting regular deliveries and face mask protection seems to have really been ramped up. However there is still a marked lack of full PPE gowns and eye protection and the delivery is going to central stores. From there the issue starts. Its not getting filtered out properly from what I've seen and A&E seemingly getting priority and then other wards including ICU get the rest. More concerning, especially from the technicians is the consumables to keep the ventilators and other equipment fully functioning. Everything ordered via NHS procurement out of stock and going direct to manufacturers leads to price hikes and still a long lead time. 

We have had the CEO in a meeting with our critical care consultant running the ICU show and the ICU senior nursing management team and from the titbits I've heard they've made it abundantly clear ICU are not getting their fair share of PPE. The technicians are working on their own fixes but also working flat out to turn round ventilators and pumps

It's a bit like these tests we were promised for front line staff. Not a sniff of them.


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It is getting through. We are getting regular deliveries and face mask protection seems to have really been ramped up. However there is still a marked lack of full PPE gowns and eye protection and the delivery is going to central stores. From there the issue starts. Its not getting filtered out properly from what I've seen and A&E seemingly getting priority and then other wards including ICU get the rest. More concerning, especially from the technicians is the consumables to keep the ventilators and other equipment fully functioning. Everything ordered via NHS procurement out of stock and going direct to manufacturers leads to price hikes and still a long lead time.

We have had the CEO in a meeting with our critical care consultant running the ICU show and the ICU senior nursing management team and from the titbits I've heard they've made it abundantly clear ICU are not getting their fair share of PPE. The technicians are working on their own fixes but also working flat out to turn round ventilators and pumps

It's a bit like these tests we were promised for front line staff. Not a sniff of them.
		
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Some of that must be quite worrying and other parts equally frustrating!

Theres obviously decent supply of the PPE just not getting to the right places quick enough?

The fact that price is even a consideration for something an ICU needs currently is utterly astounding and kinda worrying as is the lack of parts when needed 

Whats the latest with tests? Theyre clearly starting to ramp up based on some of the news, hopefully were not too far from all frontline staff being tested asap


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It is getting through. We are getting regular deliveries and face mask protection seems to have really been ramped up. However there is still a marked lack of full PPE gowns and eye protection and the delivery is going to central stores. From there the issue starts. Its not getting filtered out properly from what I've seen and A&E seemingly getting priority and then other wards including ICU get the rest. More concerning, especially from the technicians is the consumables to keep the ventilators and other equipment fully functioning. Everything ordered via NHS procurement out of stock and going direct to manufacturers leads to price hikes and still a long lead time.

We have had the CEO in a meeting with our critical care consultant running the ICU show and the ICU senior nursing management team and from the titbits I've heard they've made it abundantly clear ICU are not getting their fair share of PPE. The technicians are working on their own fixes but also working flat out to turn round ventilators and pumps

It's a bit like these tests we were promised for front line staff. Not a sniff of them.
		
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The price hike is down to the volume you're purchasing. Its not a price hike, its list price. It works like this. Picking a number out of the air. List price £10. Buy 100, the price is £9. NHS procurement will buy a 1,000 at £8.

You're paying list price because of 2 things. You don't have a pre-purchase agreement, and you're not buying a volume to trigger discounts.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			Some of that must be quite worrying and other parts equally frustrating!

Theres obviously decent supply of the PPE just not getting to the right places quick enough?

The fact that price is even a consideration for something an ICU needs currently is utterly astounding and kinda worrying as is the lack of parts when needed 

Whats the latest with tests? Theyre clearly starting to ramp up based on some of the news, hopefully were not too far from all frontline staff being tested asap
		
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Think the teccies frustrations is simply not having the same sort of supply chain to turn used vents round, enough pumps for 50 beds and NHS procurement seeming unable to source or deal with the needs. Going out directly to the manufacturers puts you into the open market and sometimes get caught in a sellers market. I think the meeting with the CEO will see our PPE situation improve (he's actually been really good since he came at standing by his word on all sotrs of subjects long before Covid-19)

As for the tests, thats a real tumbleweed topic. No-one knows or is saying. There is a growing frustration and indeed an underlying feeling of fear and people just want to know


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## Stuart_C (Apr 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The price hike is down to the volume you're purchasing. Its not a price hike, its list price. It works like this. Picking a number out of the air. List price £10. Buy 100, the price is £9. NHS procurement will buy a 1,000 at £8.

You're paying list price because of 2 things. You don't have a pre-purchase agreement, and you're not buying a volume to trigger discounts.
		
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Wouldnt that apply only to items there not on terms for already?

All the other day to day stuff like masks and PPE should be termed and heavily discounted.


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## DanFST (Apr 2, 2020)

Of 


Crazyface said:



			IF. Lets see in 2 weeks time.  People do recover you know.
		
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It's great that you are sheltered in Cheshire. I've had 2 staff members loose relatives that would be here if it was "just flu". My girlfriend's small Italian village is losing people every week. My mates a physio, has been called into nursing and is really struggling to cope, even tho he says it's just the start. People all over the world are dying, pay them some respect. God forbid somone close to you reacts badly to it, will it be "just flu" then? The data is their, read it and get informed. 

Of course, your a fool that politicises everything. If you hate BJ fine, but how's Italy doing, hows Spain doing? How's Germany, looks like their death rate is going up the same as EVERYONE elses after the 100th death (minus Korea)


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Wouldnt that apply only to items there not on terms for already?

All the other day to day stuff like masks and PPE should be termed and heavily discounted.
		
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No. NHS Procurement is a DHL majority owned company, courtesy of Blair - don't get me started on that one. Procurement have an agreement based on bulk buying, e.g., 100,000. A hospital might only buy 100. Why would a discount apply to that? Why would a discount that DHL has be applied to a purchase made by someone else?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 2, 2020)

moogie said:



			Not sure I can agree with all of that
Plenty scumbag opportunists will be well aware of which shops and businesses are still trading and which are locked up and unattended
Ripe for breaking into

Eg...... Apparently close house golf shop was broking into last night....
Post on the northumberland golf union Facebook page

But you're right though,  fascinating experiment indeed
Plenty frustrated people already

Highlight of my days right now.... Walking the dogs in the fields of the neighbouring farm👍
		
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I saw the Close House news 🤬. Incidentally, is it not largely own branded clothing there? 

I was not trying to write a definitive list, just throw out some things we might see.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			Some of that must be quite worrying and other parts equally frustrating!

Theres obviously decent supply of the PPE just not getting to the right places quick enough?

The fact that price is even a consideration for something an ICU needs currently is utterly astounding and kinda worrying as is the lack of parts when needed 

Whats the latest with tests? Theyre clearly starting to ramp up based on some of the news, hopefully were not too far from all frontline staff being tested asap
		
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Prince Charles,Matt Hancock and the PM didn’t have any trouble getting tested.


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Prince Charles,Matt Hancock and the PM didn’t have any trouble getting tested.
		
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and?

The PM, a member of his cabinet and 2nd in line to the throne, of course theyre going to get tested

You think the PM shouldnt have been granted priority access to testing?


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## User62651 (Apr 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We've gone to full escalation preparation. Main ICU now designated a "hot" covid area and the non-Covid patients now out in an outlying recovery theatre. Everything else we have up to 50 covid beds housed in ICU and theatre space. Sadly nowhere near enough vents to cover 50 beds, far less PPE gear to protect the number of staff to nurse that many patients. Just the 12 hour day again working with technicians and consultants to get the escalation processes in place. On the plus side some fantastic team spirit across the board today. We even had our CEO on the shop floor moving beds and equipment
		
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Appreciate your efforts. 
The venting 'decisions' to be made by senior medics is  a horrific situation to be put in.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			and?

The PM, a member of his cabinet and 2nd in line to the throne, of course theyre going to get tested

You think the PM shouldnt have been granted priority access to testing?
		
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If your in a hospital bed and you had a choice of one of them three or a doctor, who would you choose?
The PM yes he is in charge ,but it’s a bad example testing the generals while the troops are dying.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			No. NHS Procurement is a DHL majority owned company, courtesy of Blair - don't get me started on that one. Procurement have an agreement based on bulk buying, e.g., 100,000. A hospital might only buy 100. Why would a discount apply to that? Why would a discount that DHL has be applied to a purchase made by someone else?
		
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Masks are used everyday though, Ok not on the same level as gloves but nevertheless. 

Its obviously a complex operation.


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## fundy (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If your in a hospital bed and you had a choice of one of them three or a doctor, who would you choose?
The PM yes he is in charge ,but it’s a bad example testing the generals while the troops are dying.
		
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Am I a selfish b***ard. If so I choose me, if not I choose the one who has the chance to save 10s, maybe 100s of thousands of lives

The argument shouldnt be about priority though, should be about sourcing enough to test those that need it as quick as possible


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			Am I a selfish b***ard. If so I choose me, if not I choose the one who has the chance to save 10s, maybe 100s of thousands of lives

The argument shouldnt be about priority though, should be about sourcing enough to test those that need it as quick as possible
		
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Yes I agree but was Charlie’s wife Camilla nessesary before a Doctor or nurse?
In a national emergency we need our doctors and nurses tested FIRST.


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Masks are used everyday though, Ok not on the same level as gloves but nevertheless.

Its obviously a complex operation.
		
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Its the unknown scale of things though. For example and picking daft numbers, during normal times only 100 masks might be used. What's the number now? 400? 600? 1000?

I don't know Procurement's back office procedures or agreements. I don't know why they aren't talking to other hauliers to get shipments out quicker. I do know that although Procurement are managing some deals, some of them are delivered direct to the hospitals. Quite who's doing what when I haven't got a clue.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its the unknown scale of things though. For example and picking daft numbers, during normal times only 100 masks might be used. What's the number now? 400? 600? 1000?

I don't know Procurement's back office procedures or agreements. I don't know why they aren't talking to other hauliers to get shipments out quicker. I do know that although Procurement are managing some deals, some of them are delivered direct to the hospitals. Quite who's doing what when I haven't got a clue.
		
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It’s Madness.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I agree but was Charlie’s wife Camilla nessesary before a Doctor or nurse?
In a national emergency we need our doctors and nurses tested FIRST.
		
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Don't mean to be harsh but the first priority should always be people with symptoms 
The problem with testing nurses and doctors is their infection status is a moving target - how often do you test them etc when they keep putting themselves at risk after testing -- thats the harsh reality (which they understand)

I'd say test symptomatic healthcare staff first, then patients - then all other healthcare or at risk staff (even if asymptomatic) for reassurance purposes


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 2, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			Don't mean to be harsh but the first priority should always be people with symptoms
The problem with testing nurses and doctors is their infection status is a moving target - how often do you test them etc when they keep putting themselves at risk after testing -- thats the harsh reality (which they understand)

I'd say test symptomatic healthcare staff first, then patients - then all other healthcare or at risk staff (even if asymptomatic) for reassurance purposes
		
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My son (pharmacist) sat on his arse for two weeks at home because his son had a cough.
He works in a hospital pharmacy. He was told not to come to work.
We have our priorities all wrong where privilege and money gets you to top of list.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 2, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My son (pharmacist) sat on his arse for two weeks at home because his son had a cough.
He works in a hospital pharmacy. He was told not to come to work.
We have our priorities all wrong where privilege and money gets you to top of list.
		
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In general I agree - but you can hardly say the system is at fault when someone who was symptomatic and so might have it was tested and they did have it (as in Prince Charles case)


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 3, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			In general I agree - but you can hardly say the system is at fault when someone who was symptomatic and so might have it was tested and they did have it (as in Prince Charles case)
		
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So some little old lady in Manchester/ Liverpool showing symptoms would be tested as quick as Charles?
I don’t think so!
He was also told to stay in his main residence but went to Scotland to his holiday home.
That’s a bad example ,


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			So some little old lady in Manchester/ Liverpool showing symptoms would be tested as quick as Charles?
I don’t think so!
He was also told to stay in his main residence but went to Scotland to his holiday home.
That’s a bad example ,
		
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Seriously.

If people are trying to compare how royals are treated to everyone else, they really are talking about things that don't matter, and certainly won't change.

There is a hierarchy. And I challenge anyone to claim they haven't at some point aspired for a promotion because it raises their status in someway.

Now if people don't think there is a need for a monarchy, that's a whole new convo that's been had on here to death, but come on. Of course the heir to the throne and his wife will get checked immediately.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Seriously.

If people are trying to compare how royals are treated to everyone else, they really are talking about things that don't matter, and certainly won't change.

There is a hierarchy. And I challenge anyone to claim they haven't at some point aspired for a promotion because it raises their status in someway.

Now if people don't think there is a need for a monarchy, that's a whole new convo that's been had on here to death, but come on. Of course the heir to the throne and his wife will get checked immediately. 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, you’re answering the wrong question. It wasn’t “would they be tested” it was “should they be tested”.
ok then, another question. 
What difference did it make that Johnson and Hancock etc were tested?
Their own guidelines stated that they should self isolate for 7 days if they showed symptoms. They did this. What would they have done differently if they hadn’t had the test? Would they have not followed their own guidelines?
Now imagine if a Doctor had shown symptoms, been tested using the Johnson test (they are in very short supply). Tested negative. Gone back to work. Saved lives. 
Even if you ignore the morality of it, consider the political optics! Boris saves lives by foregoing the test and passing it on to the actual troops making a difference. Even I’d have respected that, and I think Boris is a charlatan of the lowest form.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

Why would you expect the PM to forego a test?


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Why would you expect the PM to forego a test?
		
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Did you read my post at all?
What did having the test change?


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Did you read my post at all?
What did having the test change?
		
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Think you need to join a forum with extreme left views and be happy.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Think you need to join a forum with extreme left views and be happy.
		
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Is that it? That’s your best thought out response 😂. You really are the gift that keeps on giving Craw. 
Stay safe on the front line bud 👍


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Is that it? That’s your best thought out response 😂. You really are the gift that keeps on giving Craw.
Stay safe on the front line bud 👍
		
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😂😂😂

And you question my response after a primary school retort as above.

Just missing the "lol"


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			😂😂😂

And you question my response after a primary school retort as above.

Just missing the "lol"
		
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You haven’t responded at all though have you? You’re just bored and on the wind up again 😂
Oh, and the stay safe comment was genuine. Take it or leave it 👍


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## backwoodsman (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Did you read my post at all?
What did having the test change?
		
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Ah, the beauty of online fora... the beauty of endlessly going round in circles. I posted an explanation a few hundred (?) posts ago but that circle has been gone round more than once since. I wont re-quote or post a link, as that will just give the argument another push around the loop.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Ah, the beauty of online fora... the beauty of endlessly going round in circles. I posted an explanation a few hundred (?) posts ago but that circle has been gone round more than once since. I wont re-quote or post a link, as that will just give the argument another push around the loop.
		
Click to expand...

Iirc, you stated that Prince Charles may have paid for a private test (sorry if I’ve misremembered your post). That may actually be true, but Hancock yesterday confirmed that senior politicians did not get private tests. They were tested using public purchased tests.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 3, 2020)

Danny & Crawford , time-out, take a break guys👍


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Danny & Crawford , time-out, take a break guys👍
		
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Sorry Phil. I take your point, but only one of us is on the wind up and it ain’t the cyan dog 😂


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 3, 2020)

I don't think this one has been posted, it's an interesting take on the data.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Did you read my post at all?
What did having the test change?
		
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now it's confirmed he can go out and get on the front line, no excuse now.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			now it's confirmed he can go out and get on the front line, no excuse now.
		
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Yeah but he shouldn't have had it!

😂


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, you’re answering the wrong question. It wasn’t “would they be tested” it was “should they be tested”.
ok then, another question.
What difference did it make that Johnson and Hancock etc were tested?
Their own guidelines stated that they should self isolate for 7 days if they showed symptoms. They did this. What would they have done differently if they hadn’t had the test? Would they have not followed their own guidelines?
Now imagine if a Doctor had shown symptoms, been tested using the Johnson test (they are in very short supply). Tested negative. Gone back to work. Saved lives.
Even if you ignore the morality of it, consider the political optics! Boris saves lives by foregoing the test and passing it on to the actual troops making a difference. Even I’d have respected that, and I think Boris is a charlatan of the lowest form.
		
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You know the rules only apply to us plebs, the rich and powerful have a different set of rules....

Do as we say, not as we do.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			You know the rules only apply to us plebs, the rich and *powerfu*l have a different set of rules....
		
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That's why.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2020)

Second week and still plenty of support, on the doorsteps, yesterday evening... Didn't hear any fireworks this week... Guessing those that had them used up what they had last week...


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## Ross61 (Apr 3, 2020)

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/02/politics/anthony-fauci-deborah-birx-coronavirus-trump/index.html

An interesting article about the battle to convince Trump to listen to the scientists rather than the economists about the Coronavirus threat.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My god man, aren't these carers going through enough already without being subjected to that kind of torture? 

Click to expand...

Especially for you guys.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-sc...ndition-of-scotland-the-brave-for-key-workers


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That's why.
		
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I know. I'd have a bit of respect for any them ( any party MP)  if they showed us a little bit back, instead of using the rhetoric "we're in this together" "we wont leave you" blah blah blah. But we really know the rich and powerful are all about themselves.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			I know. I'd have a bit of respect for any them ( any party MP)  if they showed us a little bit back, instead of using the rhetoric "we're in this together" "we wont leave you" blah blah blah. But we really know the rich and powerful are all about themselves.
		
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If the most powerful man in the country can't get tested. Something is wrong. 

You outraged that Merkel got tested? Or a load of Spanish politicians?


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 3, 2020)

Stu
The “Rich & Powerful” are just as likely to die from this as anybody else, so how about we cut the lower class victim stuff and accept that the government are doing their best in difficult circumstances.

Yes mistakes have been made and I’m sure more will happen, but hindsight is a wonderful thing that we do not have.

I’m furloughed and grateful that I am being kept safe and still getting most of my wages and will still have a job at the end of this.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			now it's confirmed he can go out and get on the front line, no excuse now.
		
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Which he would’ve been able to do after self isolating for 7-14 days. As per the Doctors and Nurses etc who are actually on the front line 👍


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Stu
The “Rich & Powerful” are just as likely to die from this as anybody else, so how about we cut the lower class victim stuff and accept that the government are doing their best in difficult circumstances.

Yes mistakes have been made and I’m sure more will happen, but hindsight is a wonderful thing that we do not have.

I’m furloughed and grateful that I am being kept safe and still getting most of my wages and will still have a job at the end of this.
		
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"Lower class victim stuff"....what an utter crass and  disgraceful comment to make.

I expect better from you.

I now know where I stand with you.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			If the most powerful man in the country can't get tested. Something is wrong.

You outraged that Merkel got tested? Or a load of Spanish politicians?
		
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I'm only going by the rules they've set out. 

Any signs of symptoms self isolate for 7-14 days.  I must've missed the small print on class 👍


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The “Rich & Powerful” are just as likely to die from this as anybody else
		
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Sorry Phil (and I've seen a couple of other people make the same comment), but that isn't actually true. The people at the lower end of the social spectrum are more likely to die as they will be the ones filling the "essential" roles in the supply chain. They (we) won't be able to self isolate or work from home as they won't be able to afford to. They are more likely to catch and then pass on this disease to others in their own social (lower) class and then their own families.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Which he would’ve been able to do after self isolating for 7-14 days. As per the Doctors and Nurses etc who are actually on the front line 👍
		
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No he wouldn't. Until your tested and certain, no chance of going anywhere. Yes it sucks that there aren't enough tests and somone should be held accountable when this is over. But if the PM getting tested gets in your bonnet. Jesus. 



Stuart_C said:



			"Lower class victim stuff"....what an utter crass and  disgraceful comment to make.

I expect better from you.
		
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Get over it, no one apart from you took it that way. Stop.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			No he wouldn't. Until your tested and certain, no chance of going anywhere. Yes it sucks that there aren't enough tests and somone should be held accountable when this is over. But if the PM getting tested gets in your bonnet. Jesus.



*Get over it, no one apart from you took it that way. Stop*.
		
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It was directly aimed at me. I will take it the way I see it.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Iirc, you stated that Prince Charles may have paid for a private test (sorry if I’ve misremembered your post). That may actually be true, but Hancock yesterday confirmed that senior politicians did not get private tests. They were tested using public purchased tests.
		
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There was more - though whether same post or a different post I cant recall. But like I say, I ain't  going to give that barrow another push. 

To be fair, I think there are other threads where the going round in circles comment  is even more apposite.

Ps - it isnt a dig at you  personally .


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The price hike is down to the volume you're purchasing. Its not a price hike, its list price. It works like this. Picking a number out of the air. List price £10. Buy 100, the price is £9. NHS procurement will buy a 1,000 at £8.

You're paying list price because of 2 things. You don't have a pre-purchase agreement, and you're not buying a volume to trigger discounts.
		
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If there's any price haggling going on and stopping delivery, then send an army truck to pick up the stuff and have a quiet word with the boss and make him/ her an offer they can't refuse😀


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2020)

Wish I'd logged on earlier... plenty of warmth in here this morning.

Should the PM have been tested? He has the power to make strategic decisions that could make a huge difference. Should the doctor be tested? Ideally, yes. But take the emotion out of it. Who will have the greatest impact? Its brutal, I know it doesn't read very pretty but that's the reality.

Should Charles be at the top of the list for testing? Private medicine can buy lots of things. On a simple level of who should and who shouldn't, and who will have the biggest impact? We all know the answer but when has society ever been fair?


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, you’re answering the wrong question. It wasn’t “would they be tested” it was “should they be tested”.
ok then, another question.
What difference did it make that Johnson and Hancock etc were tested?
Their own guidelines stated that they should self isolate for 7 days if they showed symptoms. They did this. What would they have done differently if they hadn’t had the test? Would they have not followed their own guidelines?
Now imagine if a Doctor had shown symptoms, been tested using the Johnson test (they are in very short supply). Tested negative. Gone back to work. Saved lives.
Even if you ignore the morality of it, consider the political optics! Boris saves lives by foregoing the test and passing it on to the actual troops making a difference. Even I’d have respected that, and I think Boris is a charlatan of the lowest form.
		
Click to expand...

Imo, the pm and the future king should be tested if they show signs. Whether the symptoms are mild or not, then they know whether they need to be looked after properly if things get worse. If Boris had foregone it, and then gone downhill quickly he’d have been tested anyway. Imo people are under playing the role that the pm has in this. His decisions will save or cost lives long term and he will be judged on that, but to imply that the role of pm isn’t important is wrong imo.

I‘d not have tested lower ranking politicians. The problem with saying all nhs should be tested is that id imagine lots are showing signs and if we tested them every time then we’d probably never test anyone else. 

Imo until the antibody test is available it’s all kinda mute. Once that’s out, test the emoter nhs workforce first. Then we know who’s had it and totally safe continuing.


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## Orikoru (Apr 3, 2020)

Why are people still talking about Boris being tested, wasn't that a week ago?? Christ! Of course they were going to test the bloody prime minister! Think about how many meetings he was having with top health officials etc. You're talking about testing one man in a position of power vs testing one doctor or nurse out of thousands upon thousands? It doesn't make sense as a comparison.

Testing Charles is another thing but I won't get into that as I'm not a fan of the monarchy anyway, and I don't want to provoke another three pages on that as well.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Wish I'd logged on earlier... plenty of warmth in here this morning.

Should the PM have been tested? He has the power to make strategic decisions that could make a huge difference. Should the doctor be tested? Ideally, yes. But take the emotion out of it. Who will have the greatest impact? Its brutal, I know it doesn't read very pretty but that's the reality.

Should Charles be at the top of the list for testing? Private medicine can buy lots of things. On a simple level of who should and who shouldn't, and who will have the biggest impact? We all know the answer but when has society ever been fair?
		
Click to expand...

If we all accept society has never been fair... Somebody needs to be having a word with team tory to stop pedalling the "we are in this together" lie ...


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Imo, the pm and the future king should be tested if they show signs. Whether the symptoms are mild or not, then they know whether they need to be looked after properly if things get worse. If Boris had foregone it, and then gone downhill quicjl
		
Click to expand...

Agree. I would like those denying the PM etc priority testing to name any other country where their Head of State or Government would not be given preferential testing.

It is a rediculous matter to whinge about.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry Phil (and I've seen a couple of other people make the same comment), but that isn't actually true. The people at the lower end of the social spectrum are more likely to die as they will be the ones filling the "essential" roles in the supply chain. They (we) won't be able to self isolate or work from home as they won't be able to afford to. They are more likely to catch and then pass on this disease to others in their own social (lower) class and then their own families.
		
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Add to that they may( not all) have underlying health issues associated with poor living conditions - they will also have high stress levels under these conditions 

All of which would put them at greater risk ..


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

Can't believe we have so many "victims" in here that bleat the same pants day in day out.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			If we all accept society has never been fair... Somebody needs to be having a word with team tory to stop pedalling the "we are in this together" lie ...
		
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When it kicks off countrywide like everywhere else, none of this will matter. Nothing can stop this currently, it doesn't discriminate on social class or race. A huge amount of people will die a truly horrible death.

The only hope is that hospitals can continue to somewhat cope. But unfortunately in my (uneducated) opinion that has sailed. We will live like this until scientists find something or the economy makes it unbearable anymore. Grim and depressing indeed.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Add to that they may( not all) have underlying health issues associated with poor living conditions - they will also have high stress levels under these conditions

All of which would put them at greater risk ..
		
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Greater risk than frontline workers?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Greater risk than frontline workers?
		
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Some are .. and no this was not a judgement post please don’t make it that way


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## Wolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Can't believe we have so many "victims" in here that bleat the same pants day in day out.
		
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I can believe it and makes coming on the forum most days just as bad as seeing the crap on Facebook from similar victim style mindset posts.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Greater risk than frontline workers?
		
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They are the frontline workers.. 
I'm not sure where you think the social (lower class to paraphrase someone else) lines stand, but most front line workers are in the lower half of the social order...


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Some are .. and no this was not a judgement post please don’t make it that way
		
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Oh dear. 

Think it's time I bowed out of this thread. 

🙄


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## bobmac (Apr 3, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I can believe it and makes coming on the forum most days just as bad as seeing the crap on Facebook from similar victim style mindset posts.
		
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The ignore button is your friend


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Can't believe we have so many "victims" in here that bleat the same pants day in day out.
		
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Name calling as soon as someone has a differing opinion!

You be careful you don’t fall off your high horse today.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			They are the frontline workers..
I'm not sure where you think the social (lower class to paraphrase someone else) lines stand, but most front line workers are in the lower half of the social order...
		
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I'm as working class as they come and I have no sense of injustice or entitlement.

Do my job and go home, repeat.

It's not difficult. It's what it is and I need to do it as do millions of other around the country.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I can believe it and makes coming on the forum most days just as bad as seeing the crap on Facebook from similar victim style mindset posts.
		
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Probably balanced by the same amount of intolerant people on here.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Name calling as soon as someone has a differing opinion!

You be careful you don’t fall off your high horse today.

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Working class can't afford horses to fall off.

🙄


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I can believe it and makes coming on the forum most days just as bad as seeing the crap on Facebook from similar victim style mindset posts.
		
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Nobody is playing the "victim" so you can probably stop with that particular little dig..

I disagree that senior politicians should be a priority for testing. They can work from home and showing symptoms in no way stops their ability to do their job. People at the frontline who cannot do their job from their kitchen should be priority tested.. That's it. That's the only point being discussed..

And for the avoidance of any doubt whatsoever - Yes, I'm still going to work. No, I'm not a frontline worker. No, I shouldn't be a priority for a test. If I show symptoms then I self isolate for 7-14 days.

My wife however should be a priority for a test as she is dealing with sick people on a daily basis and if she begins to show symptoms then she won't be able to do that from our kitchen. They'll have a hole in the already low staffing levels. People will suffer because of this. Someone may die as they won't get treated in time. That person may possibly be the loved one of a family somewhere.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Imo, the pm and the future king should be tested if they show signs. Whether the symptoms are mild or not, then they know whether they need to be looked after properly if things get worse. If Boris had foregone it, and then gone downhill quickly he’d have been tested anyway. Imo people are under playing the role that the pm has in this. *His decisions will save or cost lives long term *and he will be judged on that, but to imply that the role of pm isn’t important is wrong imo.

I‘d not have tested lower ranking politicians. The problem with saying all nhs should be tested is that id imagine lots are showing signs and if we tested them every time then we’d probably never test anyone else.

Imo until the antibody test is available it’s all kinda mute. Once that’s out, test the emoter nhs workforce first. Then we know who’s had it and totally safe continuing.
		
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Johnson saving lives? 

Have you forgotten how he was the one who was bragging about shaking hands with infected patients? Herd immunity and taking it on the chin?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Working class can't afford horses to fall off.

🙄
		
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Those living in Ivory Towers normally have a few stood around.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Johnson saving lives?

Have you forgotten how he was the one who was bragging about shaking hands with infected patients? Herd immunity and taking it on the chin?
		
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So no policies have changed have they? 

did I imagine we are under quarantine? Did I imagine granting the most state aid ever seen in this country?


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## bobmac (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			My wife however should be a priority for a test as she is dealing with sick people on a daily basis and if she begins to show symptoms then she won't be able to do that from our kitchen. They'll have a hole in the already low staffing levels. People will suffer because of this. Someone may die as they won't get treated in time. That person may possibly be the loved one of a family somewhere.
		
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To be fair, if your wife works with sick people and shows symptoms of the virus, why does she need testing?


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## Wolf (Apr 3, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The ignore button is your friend 

Click to expand...

I will never put anyone on ignore, I'm adult enough to read on past things and ignore what I think is tripe. 



pauldj42 said:



			Probably balanced by the same amount of intolerant people on here.
		
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Very true indeed. 



bluewolf said:



			Nobody is playing the "victim" so you can probably stop with that particular little dig..

I disagree that senior politicians should be a priority for testing. They can work from home and showing symptoms in no way stops their ability to do their job. People at the frontline who cannot do their job from their kitchen should be priority tested.. That's it. That's the only point being discussed..

And for the avoidance of any doubt whatsoever - Yes, I'm still going to work. No, I'm not a frontline worker. No, I shouldn't be a priority for a test. If I show symptoms then I self isolate for 7-14 days.

My wife however should be a priority for a test as she is dealing with sick people on a daily basis and if she begins to show symptoms then she won't be able to do that from our kitchen. They'll have a hole in the already low staffing levels. People will suffer because of this. Someone may die as they won't get treated in time. That person may possibly be the loved one of a family somewhere.
		
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I don't need to stop with anything I'm as entitled to my opinion as you or anyone else is and yes I believe some on here are using the victim mindset. I didn't name names of who that is but if you choose to pounce and respond on that, then that's your choice. 

I believe the PM is a priority to be tested and rightly imo was tested. However I agree with your point about others also need the vital testing such as NHS workers and all those in the direct firing line for this. I never said they shouldn't be and I think it should be a case of all those people being prioritised and tested asap.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

bobmac said:



			To be fair, if your wife works with sick people and shows symptoms of the virus, why does she need testing?
		
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Because if she shows mild symptoms but is confirmed not to have Coronavirus then she can stay at work and help people who do have it....


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Johnson saving lives?

Have you forgotten how he was the one who was bragging about shaking hands with infected patients? Herd immunity and taking it on the chin?
		
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Imo a form of herd immunity is still the only way we come through this. The vaccine is likely a year away. I don't see us being in lockdown that long. 

And I meant the role of a pm will save lives. I trust a jumped up polical party to be more effective at ruling than if we left it to the public. 

Whether people like him or not, imo A prime Minister does have an elivated status.


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2020)

bobmac said:



			To be fair, if your wife works with sick people and shows symptoms of the virus, why does she need testing?
		
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Because the symptoms aren’t exclusive. One reason that healthcare systems are overloaded is because of staff shortages, brought about by the need to self isolate when presenting symptoms, symptoms that could be something else. Testing would clarify this


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I believe the PM is a priority to be tested and rightly imo was tested. However I agree with your point about others also need the vital testing such as NHS workers and all those in the direct firing line for this. I never said they shouldn't be and I think it should be a case of all those people being prioritised and tested asap.
		
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Ok, but if there was a choice to make. You have 1 test in your hand.. Who gets it? The PM or a Doctor dealing with patients?

And yes, I know you'll never have that choice to make, but that's the (occasional) beauty of this discussion. Someone did have that choice to make. And they chose badly in my opinion.


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## Wolf (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, but if there was a choice to make. You have 1 test in your hand.. Who gets it? The PM or a Doctor dealing with patients?

And yes, I know you'll never have that choice to make, but that's the (occasional) beauty of this discussion. Someone did have that choice to make. And they chose badly in my opinion.
		
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Simple test the person showing symptoms who can then make the decisions about getting more tests for the Dr and all his team as soon as possible


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## AmandaJR (Apr 3, 2020)

Interesting interview on the BBC today when the much quoted "20 to 50%" frontline hospital staff off sick at the moment. "So is that all Covid-19 related" - "well no that is total absence" - "so some hospitals have 50% off sick" - "well that's anecdotal but anywhere between 20 and 50%"...

This is not the time for exaggerating and point scoring and slagging off the government just because you don't support them as a rule...they're doing their best in such extreme circumstances it beggars belief. The costs are just off the scale and at some stage will need to be reckoned with but, right now, I'd say they're doing an amazing job.

My brother in law lives in the US and has been laid off for 4 weeks. He's a senior engineer. His company don't have to pay him a bean and unemployment benefit is $9 an hour.

Again - I'd say we are being pretty well treated by the government.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, but if there was a choice to make. You have 1 test in your hand.. Who gets it? The PM or a Doctor dealing with patients?

And yes, I know you'll never have that choice to make, but that's the (occasional) beauty of this discussion. Someone did have that choice to make. And they chose badly in my opinion.
		
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I’d choose the PM, tough decision, but they has the power/authority to make a bigger impact in the mid to long term and possibly save other Doctors.

Thank god I’ll never have to make it.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, but if there was a choice to make. You have 1 test in your hand.. Who gets it? The PM or a Doctor dealing with patients?

And yes, I know you'll never have that choice to make, but that's the (occasional) beauty of this discussion. Someone did have that choice to make. And they chose badly in my opinion.
		
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A slight different slant on that conversation. The test comes back positive. If its the doctor then it's likely to actually cost lives directly as he can't save them for a week. 

Many doctors, nurses, soldiers etc go into harms way accepting the risk and that's what makes them heroes.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Simple test the person showing symptoms who can then make the decisions about getting more tests for the Dr and all his team as soon as possible
		
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Fair do's. We'll agree to partially disagree.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Because if she shows mild symptoms but is confirmed not to have Coronavirus then she can stay at work and help people who do have it....
		
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She'd have to wait 4 days for the test results correct? That's how long they took a month or so ago when it went off in my miss' office, imagine it's probably worse now with the scale. 

Those 3 days could be crucial, it's not ideal. But worth mentioning.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			A slight different slant on that conversation. The test comes back positive. If its the doctor then it's likely to actually cost lives directly as he can't save them for a week.

Many doctors, nurses, soldiers etc go into harms way accepting the risk and that's what makes them heroes.
		
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Hang on. So you'd intentionally send an infectious person back onto the front line..


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			A slight different slant on that conversation. The test comes back positive. If its the doctor then it's likely to actually cost lives directly as he can't save them for a week.

Many doctors, nurses, soldiers etc go into harms way accepting the risk and that's what makes them heroes.
		
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Are you saying don’t test healthcare workers as a positive test means they can’t work? Most symptoms are mild or can even test positive whilst asymptomatic. Still able to spread the contagion tho? 
If you believe the virus is as deadly as reported, testing healthcare workers should be a priority,a- so they can carry on working if negative, b- to stop them transmitting to their, potentially more vulnerable, patients


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## Slab (Apr 3, 2020)

I see now that food shops have reopened they are temp testing anyone who wants to go food shopping here, over 37.5 and not only do you not get in the shop but you are taken to isolation/quarantine centre & cannot return home

How do you reckon that would go down in the UK?


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## JamesR (Apr 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Stu
The “Rich & Powerful” are just as likely to die from this as anybody else, so how about we cut the lower class victim stuff and *accept* that the *government* are *doing* *their* *best* in difficult circumstances.

Yes mistakes have been made and I’m sure more will happen, but hindsight is a wonderful thing that we do not have.

I’m furloughed and grateful that I am being kept safe and still getting most of my wages and will still have a job at the end of this.
		
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we should never accept the govt are doing their best; we should always question their actions (or inactions) & hold them to account.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Hang on. So you'd intentionally send an infectious person back onto the front line..
		
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No, of course not. But I do think some doctors may not want to know the answer so they can continue to try and save lives.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Stu
The “Rich & Powerful” are just as likely to die from this as anybody else, so how about we cut the lower class victim stuff and accept that the government are doing their best in difficult circumstances.

Yes mistakes have been made and I’m sure more will happen, but hindsight is a wonderful thing that we do not have.

I’m furloughed and grateful that I am being kept safe and still getting most of my wages and will still have a job at the end of this.
		
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Stuart_C said:



			"Lower class victim stuff"....what an utter crass and  disgraceful comment to make.

I expect better from you.

I now know where I stand with you.
		
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Stu
Apologies, a badly worded response

By lower class, I meant anyone not “Rich & Powerful” which is pretty well all of us. 
It was not a dig at anyone’s perceived social status and certainly not meant as a sleight to you personally.

Probably a beer I owe you after this has all blown over 👍


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

JamesR said:



			we should never accept the govt are doing their best; we should always question their actions (or inactions) & hold them to account.
		
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Agreed, Labour's only job currently. Everyone needs to do less point scoring.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

therod said:



			Are you saying don’t test healthcare workers as a positive test means they can’t work? Most symptoms are mild or can even test positive whilst asymptomatic. Still able to spread the contagion tho?
If you believe the virus is as deadly as reported, testing healthcare workers should be a priority,a- so they can carry on working if negative, b- to stop them transmitting to their, potentially more vulnerable, patients
		
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You've changed the goal posts. My respomse was to question of 1 test, in which case I'd choose the pm. 

Obviously I'd rather we could test all in the NHS but that's only viable with a antibody test as others simply testing every NHS member with any symptom would likely result in countless members being tested on multiple occasions and returning negative responses. That's not the best use of them either.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Stu
Apologies, a badly worded response

By lower class, I meant anyone not “Rich & Powerful” which is pretty well all of us.
It was not a dig at anyone’s perceived social status and certainly not meant as a sleight to you personally.

Probably a beer I owe you after this has all blown over 👍
		
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Phil, I know you enough (and I know Stu too well) to know that you didn't mean it in the way it may have come across and that Stu knows that too


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 3, 2020)

While we're going around in circles debating who should and should not be tested the bigger issue is that our testing has been woefully low and doesn't look like getting up to acceptable levels until the end of the April. We have capacity in the UK to undertake German levels of testing (it's more fragmented and there are discussions to be had about the role privatisation of NHS services has played in this after it all dies down) but from friends I know who still work in the sector the government were not looking at utilising this capacity until 4 weeks ago. China and it's successful annexation of Covid-19 was built around mass testing and we knew about that in January.
It's all well and good the Dunkirk spirit shining through from those on the ground now to get us up to speed but I'm afraid the government were asleep at the wheel on this one.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Phil, I know you enough (and I know Stu too well) to know that you didn't mean it in the way it may have come across and that Stu knows that too 

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Yeah but I dont want to upset the bloke, besides he might sit on me next time I see him 😇


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yeah but I dont want to upset the bloke, besides he might sit on me next time I see him 😇
		
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I wouldn't worry. He's half the man he used to be.. Unfortunately, the half he's lost is the good half!


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			China and it's successful annexation of Covid-19 was built around mass testing and we knew about that in January.
		
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That's a joke. The disease originated in China, they tried to bury it from the world and their own citizens. They said they had it under control. The tests they sent to Spain don't work. The deaths they've reported are a joke, as you can now see everywhere else in the world, with better living conditions and healthcare systems. You don't build numerous mass morgues for 3000 deaths over a couple month period.

How do you actually test nhs staff? A large chunk don't show symptoms and it takes a while for the results. Do you test them every day? Every week?


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## bobmac (Apr 3, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Because if she shows mild symptoms but is confirmed not to have Coronavirus then she can stay at work and help people who do have it....
		
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If she has symptoms of the Coronavirus and is tested and her results are negative, should she be still working with sick people?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 3, 2020)

JamesR said:



			we should never accept the govt are doing their best; we should always question their actions (or inactions) & hold them to account.
		
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In normal times , yes. But in national crisis like this, it is different.
Someone has to *do *something, as opposed to having the luxury to criticise.
It's very easy to be a Shitstirrer  General.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			You've changed the goal posts. My respomse was to question of 1 test, in which case I'd choose the pm.

Obviously I'd rather we could test all in the NHS but that's only viable with a antibody test as others simply testing every NHS member with any symptom would likely result in countless members being tested on multiple occasions and returning negative responses. That's not the best use of them either.
		
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The PM has plenty of deputies that can step in.
Be honest have we missed Boris for a week?
Does a doctor have several people who can step in for him?
So I would choose the NHS worker first.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 3, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That's a joke. The disease originated in China, they tried to bury it from the world and their own citizens. They said they had it under control. The tests they sent to Spain don't work. The deaths they've reported are a joke, as you can now see everywhere else in the world, with better living conditions and healthcare systems. You don't build numerous mass morgues for 3000 deaths over a couple month period.

How do you actually test nhs staff? A large chunk don't show symptoms and it takes a while for the results. Do you test them every day? Every week?
		
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South Korea and Germany are the 2 other nations which have hit the ground running with mass testing right at the very beginning and they have had better control of the virus than many Central European countries. At 100,000 tests per day earlier in our outbreak we could have tested a lot more NHS staff and people showing symptoms. it wouldn't stop the spread but it would help control it.


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			You've changed the goal posts. My respomse was to question of 1 test, in which case I'd choose the pm.

Obviously I'd rather we could test all in the NHS but that's only viable with a antibody test as others simply testing every NHS member with any symptom would likely result in countless members being tested on multiple occasions and returning negative responses. That's not the best use of them either.
		
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We’re talking about different things, I was replying to your point re how a Dr may not want to know etc etc.

FYI in my understanding the antibody test is post infection.


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## JamesR (Apr 3, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			In normal times , yes. But in national crisis like this, it is different.
Someone has to *do *something, as opposed to having the luxury to criticise.
It's very easy to be a Shitstirrer  General.
		
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No. Just because we’re in a crisis, doesn’t make them exempt from criticism.


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## DRW (Apr 3, 2020)

The London Nightingale hospital is an amazing story, all be it, one place I would rather not have to book into. But a massive thumbs up to all that helped it happen and hope it saves many lives.

More ones have already been put into action, now announced Bristol and Harrogate is to have them:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52141224

Brutal.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2020)

Just an off the cuff thought. You have a magic wand. You decide to test every Medic today. That’s everyone happy. Bearing in mind where they work, are you going to test them again in 2 days time and 2 days after that and 2 days after that and...

C’mon, where is the solution to this argument?


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If she has symptoms of the Coronavirus and is tested and her results are negative, should she be still working with sick people?
		
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Mild symptoms, such as those exhibited by Hancock and Johnson etc, then yes. We all get colds from time to time. I've never had a day off work in my life because of a sniffle, neither has my wife. But anyone showing a dry persistent cough and/or a temp is now told to self isolate.. If it's not corona then I'm absolutely sure that she, and the vast majority of people would prefer to be at work, helping those who cannot help themselves.


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## JamesR (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought. You have a magic wand. You decide to test every Medic today. That’s everyone happy. Bearing in mind where they work, are you going to test them again in 2 days time and 2 days after that and 2 days after that and...

C’mon, where is the solution to this argument?
		
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Test those at home, self isolating because they think they or their family member may have it


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

therod said:



			We’re talking about different things, I was replying to your point re how a Dr may not want to know etc etc.

FYI in my understanding the antibody test is post infection.
		
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Yeah, the antibody will simply shown of you've had it. I'd imagine a very large amount of the NHS staff will have done. Meaning once they've been tested once the rest can be testing more vigorously if they shown any signs. Imo that's the most efficient way.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			South Korea and Germany are the 2 other nations which have hit the ground running with mass testing right at the very beginning and they have had better control of the virus than many Central European countries. At 100,000 tests per day earlier in our outbreak we could have tested a lot more NHS staff and people showing symptoms. it wouldn't stop the spread but it would help control it.
		
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Death rates on the same increase daily as we were now tho. South Korea are the exception. But what happens to them? They never let another person leave or enter?


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Yeah, the antibody will simply shown of you've had it. I'd imagine a very large amount of the NHS staff will have done. Meaning once they've been tested once the rest can be testing more vigorously if they shown any signs. Imo that's the most efficient way.
		
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Yep. Re this & hobbits post. It’s clear that whatever your viewpoint that testing availability & also testing good practice aren’t really fit for purpose. 
I read somewhere that the antibody test takes 28 days to come back with a result 😱.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought. You have a magic wand. You decide to test every Medic today. That’s everyone happy. Bearing in mind where they work, are you going to test them again in 2 days time and 2 days after that and 2 days after that and...

C’mon, where is the solution to this argument?
		
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Contact tracing will be used to target the testing. It won't capture every eventuality but it will begin to get more streamlined and allow for people to be isolated quicker. The BIA have just done a webinar and the tracking app which is being debated by an Oxford Uni and Nuffield is under serious review to be used in conjunction with more mass testing.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 3, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52095331
Here's a link to how they expect it could work


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			I see now that food shops have reopened they are temp testing anyone who wants to go food shopping here, over 37.5 and not only do you not get in the shop but you are taken to isolation/quarantine centre & cannot return home

How do you reckon that would go down in the UK?
		
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I saw a piece on the BBC website about something similar, using an app, and I suspect it will be the way forward to enable a loosening of restrictions. My BiL works out in China and he operated with this, may still do. In effect you have an app on your phone. You open it every day and identify if you have had the virus, what your daily temperature is, if you have any of the symptons. If your temp is high, you show symptons, then the app shows red, or whatever, and you can not go out from that point for 7 days. The app also has a tracker enabled and so it automatically notifies everyone else with the app who you came into close contact with that you need to self isolate. Their apps go red at this stage. If you are clear however your app stays green, or whatever colour, and you show this to access shops etc. The police can also ask to see your phone if they see you out to confirm you are acting correctly.

It requires use by all but if that is the only method of accessing shops, going out etc then everyone with a phone will have to do it. The libertarians will squeal but at the moment there are bigger issues so we have to suck it up.

There are some complications to this but it is one way forward and at the moment I would say that anything that can bring us back to a semblance of normality is a good thing. Long winded answer but I would say that after another week of lockdown the public would take your hand off for this.

(just seen the post above, doh. Anyway, a version has worked successfully in China already)


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 3, 2020)

therod said:



			Yep. Re this & hobbits post. It’s clear that whatever your viewpoint that testing availability & also testing good practice aren’t really fit for purpose.
I read somewhere that the antibody test takes 28 days to come back with a result 😱.
		
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I think the 28 days is the period, after infection, when a person's antibodies will be fully established. The test done then will have best chance of s true result.
As for testing for the virus and the question of 2 days then test, then 2 days then test etc. Point taken on that. But initially all NHS frontline should be tested. Then anyone with similar symptoms ( could be ordinary cold).
Also, anyone who reports that they have been in contact with someone with symptoms ( household At present they isolate, but they may not have it. A ( further) test would determine whether they would stay at work.
But, yes, testing the general public on the 13th doesn't mean they haven't got it on the 15th. So, a meaningless exercise in terms of best use of resources.
In the case of securing mass NHS staff testing,I just hope that Boris is doing a "Action this day" type of governing in respect of cutting through any red tape, bureaucracy etc


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## JustOne (Apr 3, 2020)

Corona virus - how has it affected you?

So my question is....

*Where is all the loo roll?*

If I remember they said there was plenty to go around and not to panic buy... that was over 3 weeks ago when the shelves were cleared, has anyone yet noticed how the shelves are now full of the stuff?

If they say don't panic buy cheese because we have loads of it, plenty to go around, will you be listening?


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I think the 28 days is the period, after infection, when a person's antibodies will be fully established. The test done then will have best chance of s true result.
As for testing for the virus and the question of 2 days then test, then 2 days then test etc. Point taken on that. But initially all NHS frontline should be tested. Then anyone with similar symptoms ( could be ordinary cold).
Also, anyone who reports that they have been in contact with someone with symptoms ( household At present they isolate, but they may not have it. A ( further) test would determine whether they would stay at work.
But, yes, testing the general public on the 13th doesn't mean they haven't got it on the 15th. So, a meaningless exercise in terms of best use of resources.
In the case of securing mass NHS staff testing,I just hope that Boris is doing a "Action this day" type of governing in respect of cutting through any red tape, bureaucracy etc
		
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The antibody response starts around 2 weeks after infection with a short lived antibody called IgM and soon after the more long lived antibody IgG starts. This peaks around day 28, hence the comments made about optimal testing time, but there should be detectable levels before and especially after day 28.


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2020)

So,take a break in arguing the rights and wrongs of the PM's tests; I have been informed of a new use for larger...

Sainsburys have told me that as a substitution for the Domestos Bleach I ordered they will be sending a bottle of Heineken Larger - I've always thought lager was best flushed down the loo - I've now had it verified.


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The antibody response starts around 2 weeks after infection with a short lived antibody called IgM and soon after the more long lived antibody IgG starts. This peaks around day 28, hence the comments made about optimal testing time, but there should be detectable levels before and especially after day 28.
		
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Good grief you don't need to come on here with reasons and logic based scientific evidence - it will never be popular


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			So,take a break in arguing the rights and wrongs of the PM's tests; I have been informed of a new use for larger...

Sainsburys have told me that as a substitution for the Domestos Bleach I ordered they will be sending a bottle of Heineken Larger - I've always thought lager was best flushed down the loo - I've now had it verified.
		
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I don’t mind a cold Heineken. Maybe I should have been drinking bleach all these years 😉


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2020)

With a mixture of puzzlement but mostly panic is Boris really the only one, in government, capable of running the country??? Are his lieutenants really that hopeless???

From reading this thread it seems an awful lot do 😕...


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With a mixture of puzzlement but mostly panic is Boris really the only one, in government, capable of running the country??? Are his lieutenants really that hopeless???

From reading this thread it seems an awful lot do 😕...
		
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Schrodinger's (sp) Prime Minister.

A person who is merely a figurehead of a wider political party, whilst simultaneously the only person capable of running the Country..


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## Mudball (Apr 3, 2020)

therod said:



			I don’t mind a cold Heineken. Maybe I should have been drinking bleach all these years 😉
		
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Remember you can buy 18 cans of Heineken at your supermarket but you cant buy 18 cans of bleach..


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2020)

Priority testing of staff was placed in the hands of the area NHS trusts and supporting organisation at the start of the week and was mentioned on several daily briefings. Bugger does that mean if some sons, daughters and mums aren't tested we can still blame the government and advisors.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Priority testing of staff was placed in the hands of the area NHS trusts and supporting organisation at the start of the week and was mentioned on several daily briefings. Bugger does that mean if some sons, daughters and mums aren't tested we can still blame the government and advisors.
		
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I don't know.. No one has really been speaking about this week...


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Remember you can buy 18 cans of Heineken at your supermarket but you cant buy 18 cans of bleach..
		
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You can't at my local supermarket because someone has panic bought the lot of'em.. I can only assume it's someone who's had the virus as a complete lack of taste is the only way to explain it...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2020)

I am not convinced that testing for Cvid19 is answer....an NHS staffer[or anyone]could be negative then contact the disease an hour after the test.
Testing that you have had it to me is the way forward and it seems like a much easier cheaper process.


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## JustOne (Apr 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not convinced that testing for Cvid19 is answer....an NHS staffer[or anyone]could be negative then contact the disease an hour after the test.
Testing that you have had it to me is the way forward and it seems like a much easier cheaper process.
		
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Uh oh, this whole thread is looking like it's broken down into complete common sense 

no, ...hang on I can hear someone on their way to tell you that you're wrong.........


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am not convinced that testing for Cvid19 is answer....an NHS staffer[or anyone]could be negative then contact the disease an hour after the test.
Testing that you have had it to me is the way forward and it seems like a much easier cheaper process.
		
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It's probably worth testing NHS staff who are off work isolating as a negative test means that they can go back to work. But other than that I completely agree with you.


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's probably worth testing NHS staff who are off work isolating as a negative test means that they can go back to work. But other than that I completely agree with you.
		
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Yup and hence the imperative that any antibody test is totally reliable and accurate before deployment; some are not and that would undermine the whole nature of isolation. test verification is absolutely necessary even though it is a tragic cause of delay.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2020)

Not confirmed yet but our friendly town councillor has told us that President Sanchez will be announcing that he's going to ask Congress for another 15 day extension. If approved, that will mean 45 days of lockdown by the 26th April.

Mrs Hobbit is in tears. She doesn't do confinement very well.


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## Slab (Apr 3, 2020)

Just took delivery of some over-priced fruit & veg, first in 2 weeks, its like Christmas morning


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 3, 2020)

HOT NEWS

The Queen will address The Nation on Sunday along with The Commonwealt.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not confirmed yet but our friendly town councillor has told us that President Sanchez will be announcing that he's going to ask Congress for another 15 day extension. If approved, that will mean 45 days of lockdown by the 26th April.

Mrs Hobbit is in tears. She doesn't do confinement very well.
		
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We will be facing the same here - its for the best - especially as the tail after the peak that will still catch a lot of folk out


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## chrisd (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mrs Hobbit is in tears. She doesn't do confinement very well.
		
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To be fair Brian there's only so much golf and bowls talk they can take in 30 days 😩😩


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## rudebhoy (Apr 3, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			HOT NEWS

The Queen will address The Nation on Sunday along with The Commonwealt.
		
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Great. Hopefully she will be announcing she is turning over her empty 600 bedroom house to the NHS.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2020)

Ross61 said:



https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/02/politics/anthony-fauci-deborah-birx-coronavirus-trump/index.html

An interesting article about the battle to convince Trump to listen to the scientists rather than the economists about the Coronavirus threat.
		
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Note that now Trump has changed his tune about going forward some GOP Govs are also chnaging their tu  he's also trying to rewrite history in a very


Swinglowandslow said:



			In normal times , yes. But in national crisis like this, it is different.
Someone has to *do *something, as opposed to having the luxury to criticise.
It's very easy to be a Shitstirrer  General.
		
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I can agree to an extent - but I disagree when we get ministers stonewalling or clearly not being on top of the subject matter they are briefing about or unable to speak freely. Cripes - even the DT and DM were dismayed - if they can express dismay then so can we.  

But I must not be political and so shall not go any further than noting that just as Johnson always wanted to be considered as Churchill - as a biographer of Churchill Johnson knows only too well what happened to his hero in the 1945 General election...


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## Slab (Apr 3, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			HOT NEWS

The Queen will address The Nation on Sunday along with The Commonwealt.
		
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She heard about my fruit delivery 🤔


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## JustOne (Apr 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But I must not be political and so shall not go any further than noting that just as Johnson always wanted to be considered as Churchill - as a biographer of Churchill Johnson knows only too well what happened to his hero in the 1945 General election...
		
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Like you I will also not be political and shall not go any further than noting Boris will probably want out of the hot seat after this, just so long as Labour don't get in who cares??


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## Slab (Apr 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			Just took delivery of some over-priced fruit & veg, first in 2 weeks, its like Christmas morning 

Click to expand...

Red letter day, fresh meat just arrived, if the booze gets here tomorrow will be set for at least 10 more days of lockin


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2020)

My wife hasnt been out the house for almost 3 weeks (same with little lady) apart from a half mile walk 5 times a week same route.

Today we changed it slightly just to try and boost my wife's mental health a bit as I've been constantly working (key worker) and she hasn't had a break from anything.

We took a small drive. Really small like 3 mile circuit 

To my sister's first. We stayed in car. Called them so they came out we spoke through window .. social distancing 

Then to my parents so little lady could see nanny grandad .. social distance again same routine.

Now this may not be essiental in some people's eyes. I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for being selfish. However it did my wife the world of good. She didn't realise it wasn't as bad as piers Morgan makes out. She saw the world isn't scary . She has a scan for our twins this week and I can't be there so she must go alone. I felt this was a good way of showing her it's okay out there just be careful.

On the flip side I'm not saying we should just go on Jollies, or needless things constantly. This one off little drive to give her a change of scenery for half hour I can tell you did her the world of good.

Plus my daughters smile melted my heart.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife hasnt been out the house for almost 3 weeks (same with little lady) apart from a half mile walk 5 times a week same route.

Today we changed it slightly just to try and boost my wife's mental health a bit as I've been constantly working (key worker) and she hasn't had a break from anything.

We took a small drive. Really small like 3 mile circuit

To my sister's first. We stayed in car. Called them so they came out we spoke through window .. social distancing

Then to my parents so little lady could see nanny grandad .. social distance again same routine.

*Now this may not be essiental in some people's eyes*. I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for being selfish. However it did my wife the world of good. She didn't realise it wasn't as bad as piers Morgan makes out. She saw the world isn't scary . She has a scan for our twins this week and I can't be there so she must go alone. I felt this was a good way of showing her it's okay out there just be careful.

On the flip side I'm not saying we should just go on Jollies, or needless things constantly. This one off little drive to give her a change of scenery for half hour I can tell you did her the world of good.

Plus my daughters smile melted my heart.
		
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Not sure anyone could claim its actually essential if we were given back and white to live by. But with the vagueness of our weaker rules. 

Essential to you, seems to be good enough. 

Not a criticism by the way. I'm "lucky" enough to live mere doors away from my in laws and chats through the window are much more beneficial to the old folk than facetime.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Not sure anyone could claim its actually essential if we were given back and white to live by. But with the vagueness of our weaker rules.

Essential to you, seems to be good enough.

Not a criticism by the way. I'm "lucky" enough to live mere doors away from my in laws and chats through the window are much more beneficial to the old folk than facetime.
		
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Agreed, the rules are vague. Lots of grey

I took the same route today to go to Tesco for the weekly shop. Wife and daughter left at home.

I'll drive 50 miles round trip tomorrow for work 

Thursday I may combine a trip to make it essiental, the wife has to go to a scan and has to go alone but parking at hospital is all for staff right now (not moaning, support that) I'm not going to let her get a bus it's too risky 

So I'll drive her which means both us out, means little lady. 

I have to obviously drive back home. However I could take the same route to my sister's and my parents (it's same miles just another route choice home)

Then go back pick up my wife 

Come home 

At least that drive would be essiental I guess 

It's a fine balance for sure


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## Papas1982 (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Agreed, the rules are vague. Lots of grey

I took the same route today to go to Tesco for the weekly shop. Wife and daughter left at home.

I'll drive 50 miles round trip tomorrow for work

Thursday I may combine a trip to make it essiental, the wife has to go to a scan and has to go alone but parking at hospital is all for staff right now (not moaning, support that) I'm not going to let her get a bus it's too risky

So I'll drive her which means both us out, means little lady.

I have to obviously drive back home. However I could take the same route to my sister's and my parents (it's same miles just another route choice home)

Then go back pick up my wife

Come home

At least that drive would be essiental I guess

It's a fine balance for sure
		
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My work location has just changed. I drive past two courses. First thing missus did was warn me that stopping there wouldnt be essential 😂😂

I drive Literally past the car parks. Yesterday my nearest had quite a few "green keepers at work"....


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## richart (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not confirmed yet but our friendly town councillor has told us that President Sanchez will be announcing that he's going to ask Congress for another 15 day extension. If approved, that will mean 45 days of lockdown by the 26th April.

Mrs Hobbit is in tears. She doesn't do confinement very well.
		
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 Well let her out of the cupboard.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2020)

richart said:



			Well let her out of the cupboard.

Click to expand...

I did wonder why her voice sounded muffled...


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## Slime (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife hasnt been out the house for almost 3 weeks (same with little lady) apart from a half mile walk 5 times a week same route.

Today we changed it slightly just to try and boost my wife's mental health a bit as I've been constantly working (key worker) and she hasn't had a break from anything.

We took a small drive. Really small like 3 mile circuit

To my sister's first. We stayed in car. Called them so they came out we spoke through window .. social distancing

Then to my parents so little lady could see nanny grandad .. social distance again same routine.

Now this may not be essiental in some people's eyes. I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for being selfish. However it did my wife the world of good. She didn't realise it wasn't as bad as piers Morgan makes out. She saw the world isn't scary . She has a scan for our twins this week and I can't be there so she must go alone. I felt this was a good way of showing her it's okay out there just be careful.

On the flip side I'm not saying we should just go on Jollies, or needless things constantly. *This one off little drive to give her a change of scenery for half hour I can tell you did her the world of good.*

Plus my daughters smile melted my heart.
		
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That sounds like it was essential for her, that's fair play in my eyes. 
Mental wellbeing is very important right now.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife hasnt been out the house for almost 3 weeks (same with little lady) apart from a half mile walk 5 times a week same route.

Today we changed it slightly just to try and boost my wife's mental health a bit as I've been constantly working (key worker) and she hasn't had a break from anything.

We took a small drive. Really small like 3 mile circuit

To my sister's first. We stayed in car. Called them so they came out we spoke through window .. social distancing

Then to my parents so little lady could see nanny grandad .. social distance again same routine.

Now this may not be essiental in some people's eyes. I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for being selfish. However it did my wife the world of good. She didn't realise it wasn't as bad as piers Morgan makes out. She saw the world isn't scary . She has a scan for our twins this week and I can't be there so she must go alone. I felt this was a good way of showing her it's okay out there just be careful.

On the flip side I'm not saying we should just go on Jollies, or needless things constantly. This one off little drive to give her a change of scenery for half hour I can tell you did her the world of good.

Plus my daughters smile melted my heart.
		
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You did the right thing imo.
Mental health is vital atm.
It’s hard for the kids to understand what’s going on.
You need to stop her watching Piers Morgan!
It’s people who drive their dogs miles to go for a walk I don’t get!


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife hasnt been out the house for almost 3 weeks (same with little lady) apart from a half mile walk 5 times a week same route.

Today we changed it slightly just to try and boost my wife's mental health a bit as I've been constantly working (key worker) and she hasn't had a break from anything.

We took a small drive. Really small like 3 mile circuit

To my sister's first. We stayed in car. Called them so they came out we spoke through window .. social distancing

Then to my parents so little lady could see nanny grandad .. social distance again same routine.

Now this may not be essiental in some people's eyes. I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for being selfish. However it did my wife the world of good. She didn't realise it wasn't as bad as piers Morgan makes out. She saw the world isn't scary . She has a scan for our twins this week and I can't be there so she must go alone. I felt this was a good way of showing her it's okay out there just be careful.

On the flip side I'm not saying we should just go on Jollies, or needless things constantly. This one off little drive to give her a change of scenery for half hour I can tell you did her the world of good.

Plus my daughters smile melted my heart.
		
Click to expand...

One small trip in three weeks hardly seems excessive imo. You have the nous to know what is right and wrong in the current climate and you're not one of the plentiful cars on the road for no reason. Yes I get we're allowed a shopping trip for "essential" groceries and prescriptions but there seem to still be so many people in their cars. If it helped your wife and daughter and a rare trip I don't see anything wrong at all


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## USER1999 (Apr 3, 2020)

5 cars parked in front of the police tape today. Clearly driving to local woods is deemed off limits, but some clearly think it doesn't apply to them.


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## USER1999 (Apr 3, 2020)

Sunday will be interesting. 20 degrees, great weather. How many will stay at home? Just can't see it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sunday will be interesting. 20 degrees, great weather. How many will stay at home? Just can't see it.
		
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Nope and can see Boris coming on TV Monday or Tuesday and introducing stricter measures especially as the deaths continue to rise daily


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sunday will be interesting. 20 degrees, great weather. How many will stay at home? Just can't see it.
		
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The rules are to vague 3 miles is 50 miles to some.
It will only make Boris clamp down faster imo.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			One small trip in three weeks hardly seems excessive imo. You have the nous to know what is right and wrong in the current climate and you're not one of the plentiful cars on the road for no reason. Yes I get we're allowed a shopping trip for "essential" groceries and prescriptions but there seem to still be so many people in their cars. If it helped your wife and daughter and a rare trip I don't see anything wrong at all
		
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Thanks guys, I was feeling bad and it's nice to read others think I wasn't completely out of line 

Yes @clubchamp98 I keep trying to get her off that awful man but when I'm working I can't block itv 

@Slime  I will keep some short trips up now and again maybe in 3 more weeks time 

I'm very lucky 

I went Tesco today 

I'm working tomorrow 

I get that social interaction she doesn't , does make me feel guilty at times


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I get that social interaction she doesn't , does make me feel guilty at times
		
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Much as I've been busy at work, I have really enjoyed being able to carry on working and talk to different people every day and have a joke and a chat. Really feel for those at home, particularly the old. Funny enough I am actually dreading the weekends now and being stuck inside for two days (bar a short walk)


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## Lump (Apr 3, 2020)

Was set to have the next 11 days off work. Pulled back my holidays and I’ve now got overtime over the bank holiday weekend too boot. Extremely fortunate to work in an industry that is still very much busy and very much essential to keeping the nation moving. 
Do feel for anyone that is isolating at home.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Much as I've been busy at work, I have really enjoyed being able to carry on working and talk to different people every day and have a joke and a chat. Really feel for those at home, particularly the old. Funny enough I am actually dreading the weekends now and being stuck inside for two days (bar a short walk)
		
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I've got 2 weeks off coming up 

I've told my boss put me down for any shift of overtime he can't cover with someone else. The thought of being inside lol just no


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I've got 2 weeks off coming up

I've told my boss put me down for any shift of overtime he can't cover with someone else. The thought of being inside lol just no
		
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Funny how we see work as a necessary evil, and many are probably not overly happy their jobs, but given the chance to go out still (as a key worker obviously) and interact makes such a difference


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## USER1999 (Apr 3, 2020)

On furlough. It's ok. Can't complain really. Wife working from home. Yep, it gets inconvenient but it is what it is. Get out for a walk at lunch time, and try to get a quick cycle ride in too. All from home. Do a bit of gardening every now and then.

Need to jet wash the patio next week, and clean the windows.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You did the right thing imo.
Mental health is vital atm.
It’s hard for the kids to understand what’s going on.
You need to stop her watching Piers Morgan!
It’s people who drive their dogs miles to go for a walk I don’t get!
		
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What don’t you get about people driving their dogs for a walk?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Funny how we see work as a necessary evil, and many are probably not overly happy their jobs, but given the chance to go out still (as a key worker obviously) and interact makes such a difference
		
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Have to admit. I love my job, get on with my colleagues and just enjoy playing with a giant train set whilst problem solving lol


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 3, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			What don’t you get about people driving their dogs for a walk?
		
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Why not just walk them from your front door?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2020)

Good unscripted briefing by Matt Hancock earlier I thought.  Whether or not much was of any comfort I'm not so sure - but at least I got the impression that he knew what he was talking about and had authority to speak and answer questions - which he did.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Have to admit. I love my job, get on with my colleagues and just enjoy playing with a giant train set whilst problem solving lol
		
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I can imagine how much fun that would be. Perhaps not so much when the network isn't having a good day and the signals aren't playing ball


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## pendodave (Apr 3, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Have to admit. I love my job, get on with my colleagues and just enjoy playing with a giant train set whilst problem solving lol
		
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Haha me too, must be something about trains...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 3, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I can imagine how much fun that would be. Perhaps not so much when the network isn't having a good day and the signals aren't playing ball
		
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Well those days are some of the most fun, problem solving and the shift flies by in no time.

No good for the public though


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good unscripted briefing by Matt Hancock earlier I thought.  Whether or not much was of any comfort I'm not so sure - but at least I got the impression that he knew what he was talking about and had authority to speak and answer questions - which he did.
		
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Is that the same Matt Hancock you criticised up hill and down dale just over a week ago? If it was, maybe he wasn't too well back then.

Conclusion jumped to?


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## drdel (Apr 3, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nope and can see Boris coming on TV Monday or Tuesday and introducing stricter measures especially as the deaths continue to rise daily
		
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The death rate will rise for at least 2 to 3 weeks due to lag in system.


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## richart (Apr 3, 2020)

Just watched Sky News, and a report from Bergamo. Jesus Christ just horrendous. A generation is being wiped out. Words fail me.


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## IainP (Apr 3, 2020)

richart said:



			Just watched Sky News, and a report from Bergamo. Jesus Christ just horrendous. A generation is being wiped out. Words fail me.
		
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Didn't see it, but did come across this. Many have rightly criticised the quality of journalism, here you find some comparisons of March 2019 vs. 2020 etc.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-coronavirus-death-toll-is-far-higher-than-reported-11585767179


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## bladeplayer (Apr 3, 2020)

richart said:



			Just watched Sky News, and a report from Bergamo. Jesus Christ just horrendous. A generation is being wiped out. Words fail me.
		
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Truly shocking . . 
Could b ireland or uk in next few weeks .. 

One World disaster that has our full attention coz its coming our way and we cant avoid it ..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Is that the same Matt Hancock you criticised up hill and down dale just over a week ago? If it was, maybe he wasn't too well back then.

Conclusion jumped to?

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Maybe his exposure to the virus has changed his thinking...enabled him to speak straight - or maybe it was more to do with him comparing very favourably against those who have done briefings this week before his return - Raab, Gove and Sharma - did Jenrick do one also.  Perhaps also a week ago I was finding Hunt and Sinai more convincing than Hancock.  

Hancock did fine today.


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## garyinderry (Apr 3, 2020)

richart said:



			Just watched Sky News, and a report from Bergamo. Jesus Christ just horrendous. A generation is being wiped out. Words fail me.
		
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Watched this last night.  Harrowing.


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## richart (Apr 3, 2020)

garyinderry said:









Watched this last night.  Harrowing.
		
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Same report, and you are right, harrowing.


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## DanFST (Apr 3, 2020)

Still just flu tho.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 3, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You did the right thing imo.
Mental health is vital atm.
It’s hard for the kids to understand what’s going on.
You need to stop her watching Piers Morgan!
*It’s people who drive their dogs miles to go for a walk I don’t get!*

Click to expand...




Nothing new here though. I used to manage parks (including the car parks within them). Every time we had to put up parking charges, we'd get the dog walkers complaining. "We can't afford to bring our dogs to the park now".  My reply of "Well, if you walked your dog to the park instead of driving, you wouldn't need to pay, would you" was always met with stoney silence.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good unscripted briefing by Matt Hancock earlier I thought.  Whether or not much was of any comfort I'm not so sure - but at least I got the impression that he knew what he was talking about and had authority to speak and answer questions - which he did.
		
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I think the government have done well with all this up to now.
The one thing I would say though is why come up with targets to test people (100,000) by end of the month.
Normally a politician promises something they have five years to do it or not!
Now he has weeks.
But they promise things that are out of their control ( test kits don’t exist yet for antibodies,that work)
Matt Hancock is the worst offender, just tell us the truth!


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## Orikoru (Apr 4, 2020)

Had a Zoom meet-up with my mates earlier. All had a beer in our hands, and someone managed to find an online version of Cards Against Humanity we could all play, so had a bit of a laugh with that. Need a new game for next time I think.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sunday will be interesting. 20 degrees, great weather. How many will stay at home? Just can't see it.
		
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Even though I feel more than confident to keep to the correct distancing, whilst in the woods, I've already decided to make it 'stay in Sunday'... Hopefully, the measures taken over at the Lido have been spread wide and far and folk don't start arriving, in large numbers, hoping for a stroll on the beach... Car parks were open yesterday and we counted about a total of 15 vehicles between the two as we walked past... Way less than 'normal'...


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## Imurg (Apr 4, 2020)

It's the Management's birthday today and she's just coming off a night shift ( back on again tonight) so it's not a normal one for her.
As I've been confined for a couple of weeks I've used Amazon to accumulate pressies - the card has arrived but none of the pressies ( maybe today)
So I had to get something for her to open with her cards when she gets home.
So, first time shopping outside for 2 weeks and I'm not ashamed to say I felt more than a mite nervous about even going out, let alone being in the shop.
It's only the local Sainsbury's small shop and I was barely able to get anything for her but I was surprisingly relieved to get home.
I think, at the end of all this, the psychological effects may match or even surpass the loss of life 
There will be more distrust of people, many will need counselling and some won't get that far and will end it all.
Keep talking people.....and be nice. 
A lot of people are having a hard time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2020)

I'll answer the dog walking one for those who don't get it. We walk our dog, step outside the door etc most days, at the moment all of the time of course. That means you are repeating the same walk time and time again. There are different routes to take but ultimately there are limits. That gets dull for the walker and the dog. At a weekend, when we have free time, we will often get in the car and drive 4-5 miles and that takes us to a beach, a country park, a wood to walk in etc. Somewhere different, somewhere to safely let our dog off her lead for a run. 

We are not doing any of this right now but in normal times it is standard for a lot of people. It's the same for walkers, would you expect them to ramble around their home streets only?


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

garyinderry said:









Watched this last night.  Harrowing.
		
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Just watched it, and I think all TV programmes should be halted at a prime time and it shown on every channel, like a national awareness and education, its a wake-up call to anyone who thinks we're not vulnerable, at any age in any part of the country.

When the most sophisticated hospital with the most resources available to them is overwhelmed, then the writing is on the wall, its here, its spreading, ignorance will be punished, not just to yourself, but to many many others, so don't be selfish, stay at home!

I'm still on the road, can't believe what I see when arriving at some companies where their staff clearly are working too close or in small cramped areas, or without any PPE!

I have an official letter confirming that I'm a key worker, I'm doing some delivery runs that I can't discus in detail but I can say that I am delivering to laboratories under very strict and controlled conditions at silly hours.

People on here talking about golf being relaxed shortly and that it can be self-managed, safely, are kidding themselves, we have stronger lock down procedures still to be enforced in the coming weeks/months!

Still far too many cars on the road, and as for those speeding due to quieter roads/motorways, they want locking up if caught, not points or fines, ban them immediately!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Good to hear prof Neil Ferguson on the radio just now refer to infections (and deaths) reaching a plateau and how long before we start dropping from that plateau.  More accurate I feel that talking of infections reaching a peak as a peak implies that we’d be dropping from that place pretty quickly - that’s what peaks are.  

The ‘flattening’ that separation intends to provide is a flattening of a peak into a much lower plateau.  Kind of important distinction I feel in setting public expectations - and indeed his view was that though we might reach the plateau in a couple of weeks, end May before we start dropping off the plateau.


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## bladeplayer (Apr 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good to hear prof Neil Ferguson on the radio just now refer to infections (and deaths) reaching a plateau and how long before we start dropping from that plateau.  More accurate I feel that talking of infections reaching a peak as a peak implies that we’d be dropping from that place pretty quickly - that’s what peaks are. 

The ‘flattening’ that separation intends to provide is a flattening of a peak into a much lower plateau.  Kind of important distinction I feel in setting public expectations - and indeed his view was that though we might reach the plateau in a couple of weeks, end May before we start dropping off the plateau.
		
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 what some people need to understand tho (not saying you) ls thatThe flattening is not the beginning of the end of this  The flattening of the curve is to allow hospitals get some patients out to make room for others .. currently no cure or vaccine . So the lock down is to stop the spread to ease pressure on rescources not to "cure" it .. although there are opinions it wil just die off if not  spread.. i have no idea on that tbh


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			What don’t you get about people driving their dogs for a walk?
		
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Probably the fact that it's ultimately selfish act. An unnecessary drive.An unnecessary risk of an accident which involves undoing social distancing  and a diversion of resources.


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## Slime (Apr 4, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Funny how we see work as a necessary evil, and many are probably not overly happy their jobs, but given the chance to go out still (*as a key worker obviously*) and interact makes such a difference
		
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*NO.*
Any worker who can't work from home and can still social distance may still go to work.
Why can't/won't people understand this?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe his exposure to the virus has changed his thinking..*.enabled him to speak straight* - or maybe it was more to do with him comparing very favourably against those who have done briefings this week before his return - Raab, Gove and Sharma - did Jenrick do one also.  Perhaps also a week ago I was finding Hunt and Sinai more convincing than Hancock. 

Hancock did fine today.
		
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I think you ought to clarify that phrase. Are you suggesting he's been lying previously?  Or what.


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Probably the fact that it's ultimately selfish act. An unnecessary drive.An unnecessary risk of an accident which involves undoing social distancing  and a diversion of resources.
		
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This is what people aren't factoring in when justifying their need to go out further than the immediate area of where they live.

Like those saying lift the golf restrictions, can you walk to the golf course, I'd say mainly no, so its not an essential journey, can you walk the dog without driving, yes, but if they broke down or had an accident in those circumstances, a recovery vehicle may be needed, an ambulance may be needed, these are all then breaching what we are attempting to control with social distancing, people are just selfish and just aren't accepting the threat, not just to themselves, but to others!

The true colours of some people always come through when challenged in circumstances like these, selfishness is rife unfortunately.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

Slime said:



			Any worker who can't work from home and can still social distance may still go to work.
		
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If they don't go to work, can they not claim back 80% of their pay from the government ?


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## Slime (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If they don't go to work, can they not claim back 80% of their pay from the government ?
		
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Yes, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
I'm just wishing that people would understand the guidelines and not spout misleading inaccuracies.
I know of a case where the average profits over a three year period is just about break even.
80% of that won't help them.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

Slime said:



			That's not the point I'm trying to make.
I'm just wishing that people would understand the guidelines and not spout misleading inaccuracies.
		
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I'm sorry I don't care what people spout.
If you can stay at home and get 80% of your wage then in my opinion you should stay at home.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			This is what people aren't factoring in when justifying their need to go out further than the immediate area of where they live.

Like those saying lift the golf restrictions, can you walk to the golf course, I'd say mainly no, so its not an essential journey, can you walk the dog without driving, yes, but if they broke down or had an accident in those circumstances, a recovery vehicle may be needed, an ambulance may be needed, these are all then breaching what we are attempting to control with social distancing, people are just selfish and just aren't accepting the threat, not just to themselves, but to others!

The true colours of some people always come through when challenged in circumstances like these, selfishness is rife unfortunately.
		
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Speaking from personal experience a lot of the DIY tasks folk are taking on, whilst in 'isolation', is fraught with danger... Going to be mighty difficult to control folk doing what they see and consider everyday tasks... I must of climbed ladders hundreds [thousands] of times previously... Just took one lapse of 'care' and I was down them taking up the services of a paramedic and a couple of ambulance men and that's not mentioning the many folk that cared for me on arrival at the hospital... Staying in can be just as dangerous as going out...


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2020)

bladeplayer said:



			what some people need to understand tho (not saying you) ls thatThe flattening is not the beginning of the end of this  The flattening of the curve is to allow hospitals get some patients out to make room for others .. currently no cure or vaccine . So the lock down is to stop the spread to ease pressure on rescources not to "cure" it .. although there are opinions it wil just die off if not  spread.. i have no idea on that tbh
		
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Spot on!

I think what some people might miss is the number underneath a flat prolonged curve could still be very close to a curve that rises higher and fall sharply. As you say, all it does is reduce pressure and buy time. There is still no cure, only the potential for easier access to acute care if the flattening is achieved.


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Speaking from personal experience a lot of the DIY tasks folk are taking on, whilst in 'isolation', is fraught with danger... Going to be mighty difficult to control folk doing what they see and consider everyday tasks... I must of climbed ladders hundreds [thousands] of times previously... Just took one lapse of 'care' and I was down them taking up the services of a paramedic and a couple of ambulance men and that's not mentioning the many folk that cared for me on arrival at the hospital... Staying in can be just as dangerous as going out...
		
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But wilfully driving when not essential is increasing the risk of that of a household accident! hence the word 'accident', if they've chosen to drive when not necessary, then that imo has been brought on by selfishness and stupidity!


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 4, 2020)

.


Swinglowandslow said:



			Probably the fact that it's ultimately selfish act. An unnecessary drive.An unnecessary risk of an accident which involves undoing social distancing  and a diversion of resources.
		
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The question was on the back of someone agreeing that it was okay to take their daughter out to their grandparents,  but at the same time couldn’t understand why people took the dogs for a drive to the park.

Neither of which irritates me, but amazed that someone though there was a difference.


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If they don't go to work, can they not claim back 80% of their pay from the government ?
		
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NO....
You’re company has to put you on furlough to enable the 80% payment. If the company is still operating then you go in. This isn’t difficult. Please can we move on from this myth that people can just decide to stay at home and still be paid. Don’t you think we’d do that rather than put ourselves and our families at risk!!!!!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If they don't go to work, can they not claim back 80% of their pay from the government ?
		
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Not entirely it isn't black and white 

If your employer makes you go work then no you don't get 80% 

If they shut down then they get 80%


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2020)

The boss/company have to furlough you first so they then claim back from HMRC so might not be so easy if told you have to work


bobmac said:



			I'm sorry I don't care what people spout.
If you can stay at home and get 80% of your wage then in my opinion you should stay at home.
		
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## garyinderry (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry I don't care what people spout.
If you can stay at home and get 80% of your wage then in my opinion you should stay at home.
		
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You can't just go home and get 80% wages.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

So why don't companies shut down and let the govt. pay their staff wages?


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## arnieboy (Apr 4, 2020)

A nice idea though!


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## USER1999 (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So why don't companies shut down and let the govt. pay their staff wages?
		
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Because if their competitors don't, there will be no business left to reopen.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Because if their competitors don't, there will be no business left to reopen.
		
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They shouldn't have that choice


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So why don't companies shut down and let the govt. pay their staff wages?
		
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Because that would be economic suicide and would likely result in mass bankruptcies and a swift descent into 3rd world social structures.


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## hovis (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So why don't companies shut down and let the govt. pay their staff wages?
		
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your clearly not a business owner.  imagine having a successful business that can still operate whilst adhering to the governments guidelines and close just because some people think they should.  are these people going to come out the woodwork and help you rebuild your company.    I have visited multiple company's recently and all of them have very good measures in place.


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

hovis said:



			your clearly not a business owner.  imagine having a successful business that can still operate whilst adhering to the governments guidelines and close just because some people think they should.  are these people going to come out the woodwork and help you rebuild your company.    I have visited multiple company's recently and all of them have very good measures in place.
		
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Im very happy with the measures put in place by my Company. It’s not perfect, but it lessens the risks as much as possible.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

hovis said:



			your clearly not a business owner.  imagine having a successful business that can still operate whilst adhering to the governments guidelines and close just because some people think they should.  are these people going to come out the woodwork and help you rebuild your company.    I have visited multiple company's recently and all of them have very good measures in place.
		
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I'm sure they do.
But how do the staff get to work?


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## hovis (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure they do.
But how do the staff get to work?
View attachment 29654

Click to expand...

so because of an isolated problem in London matey boy in Cheshire has to close his profitable business and earn zero cash while we ride this out?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 4, 2020)

Woke to some very sad news this morning. Teena who runs the half-way hut at Wellingborough passed away last night. She had been unwell for such a long time and so stoical through it all but finally she succumbed to the inevitable. Such a lovely person and I've always said I'd miss her more than anyone else at the club which is true. Loved the times I played solo and stopped after 9 holes for a good old gossip - few cups of tea later I'd carry on down the 10th.

What is really sad is we won't be able to attend the funeral - usually it would be packed as she was such a popular person at our club and also at county level as she was on the committee and always at events to do the cards before and after.

RIP Teena.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

hovis said:



			so because of an isolated problem in London matey boy in Cheshire has to close his profitable business and earn zero cash while we ride this out?
		
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684 people died yesterday with almost 4,500 new cases reported.
I wouldn't call that an isolated problem


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure they do.
But how do the staff get to work?
View attachment 29654

Click to expand...

Bob, I appreciate that you’re arguing that safety should be the primary and only concern. But if every business shuts down and everyone stayed at home, the end result would be far far worse than the current pandemic. Millions would die over the next few decades probably. 
I’m not 100% comfortable going to work. But I still go as I appreciate that it’s a necessity. I really would prefer it if I didn’t have to constantly deal with people telling me that I’m the reason that the lockdown will continue and more people will die. It’s not that I don’t know that it’s bullshite, but I am getting bored with telling people the same thing every bloody day....


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## williamalex1 (Apr 4, 2020)

richart said:



			Well let her out of the cupboard.

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There's a cracking video on Facebook about that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure they do.
But how do the staff get to work?
View attachment 29654

Click to expand...

London is not the whole country. Plenty can do it safely. 

If I don't go in, I can operate safely with a reduced staff, then there is a good chance I wont have a business to operate going forward. It's going to be tough enough already to survive the next 12 months but if we close for 1-2 months then my customers, who are largely still operating, will go elsewhere for the items they buy from me. The chances of them then coming back to me after all this are very small. 

What applies to me as a small business is the same for companies of all sizes. Size is mo protection right now.


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## hovis (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			684 people died yesterday with almost 4,500 new cases reported.
I wouldn't call that an isolated problem
		
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so you really think that the guy in chesire that is keeping one staff member to one room is going to up these figures?   if it was so cut and dry as you say then why haven't the government enforced this?  even the government are saying you can go to work if you can't work from home.  so if it's good enough for them then why don't you accept it?  do you know better?


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## garyinderry (Apr 4, 2020)

The problem I've observed is companies are legally obligated to protect their staff but there is no one checking to see if this is actually taking place. 
In my factory, people try to follow the distancing guidelines but there is many instances where it is impossible to the job. 2 or 3 men may be all over each other operating a machine, fitters call out when it malfunctions, packers are too close together and some on the floor simply ignore the distancing practices over and over. 
Reports on Facebook from other companies sound even worse. 
Personally I dodged a bullet. A woman in our lab went off to isolate a week and half ago. Shes 65 and felt she was vulnerable. While trying to be as safe as possible she is now at home fighting the virus. I'm certain I would have caught it had she kept working as the lab isn't very big.

It's a difficult balance. Our MD has decided we are going to try and keep going through all of this. Even if we only go down to 10% production. I appreciate we need to also protect jobs. I fully believe we could have shut for a fortnight to ease the mind of staff and play our part to help the NHS.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Speaking from personal experience a lot of the DIY tasks folk are taking on, whilst in 'isolation', is fraught with danger... Going to be mighty difficult to control folk doing what they see and consider everyday tasks... I must of climbed ladders hundreds [thousands] of times previously... Just took one lapse of 'care' and I was down them taking up the services of a paramedic and a couple of ambulance men and that's not mentioning the many folk that cared for me on arrival at the hospital... Staying in can be just as dangerous as going out...
		
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So, is it necessary to put yourself up a ladder that you might fall off, and have contact with medics and others and risk getting yourself or your family infected, or vice versa. Was it that important to do it at this time.?
Of course, just living and moving around involves some risk, but it behoves  us to not increase that risk unnecessarily at a time like this.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

A


hovis said:



			so you really think that the guy in chesire that is keeping one staff member to one room is going to up these figures?   if it was so cut and dry as you say then why haven't the government enforced this?  even the government are saying you can go to work if you can't work from home.  so if it's good enough for them then why don't you accept it?  do you know better?
		
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I don't have all the answers but I do know as long as people gather together at work or on public transport getting to and from work, people are going to keep dying.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			A


I don't have all the answers but I do know as long as people gather together at work or on public transport getting to and from work, people are going to keep dying.
		
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You have to consider short and long term. As bluewolf said.
More people will die of the effects of mass unemployment. It’s all well and good taking 80% from the government, but when it ends and it will.  If all the companies have gone bust, there is no redundancy package and millions will have no income.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			You have to consider short and long term. As bluewolf said.
More people will die of the effects of mass unemployment. It’s all well and good taking 80% from the government, but when it ends and it will.  If all the companies have gone bust, there is no redundancy package and millions will have no income.
		
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Who then pays for the doctors, nurses, equipment, fire fighters, teachers etc if taxes are not coming in. We have to maintain an economy of sorts.

Companies across Europe are still operating, their govts understand the economic need. Throughout all of this we are still shipping across Europe, even to the hardest hit countries such as Spain and Italy.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

Maybe some companies can alter start and finish times so some start at 10 and finish at 7.
At least that would reduce crowding at peak times


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Maybe some companies can alter start and finish times so some start at 10 and finish at 7.
At least that would reduce crowding at peak times
		
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We’ve sent everyone home that we can. We’ve moved people about to limit interaction. We’ve taped off exclusion zones so that people can stay safe. We’ve done as much as possible in my view. I’ve also been impressed with the way the staff have acted in the main. In my view, these staff who keep the businesses running during this pandemic are just as important as anyone else. We all need something to return to when the doors finally open. At the very least, we should all have learned that we should not be looking down on any job, position or role. Without the lower paid there wouldn’t be any higher paid jobs.


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2020)

Whatever some think, I can’t survive on 80% basic + no chance of earning bonus. My furlough is supposed to be an average of my monthly earnings capped at £2.5k & also 80% when I get back for the foreseeable. That maybe ok in the short term, but my Mrs is self employed & her income has dropped off a cliff. How many of those proposing stay at home are retired & mortgage free ?


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Maybe some companies can alter start and finish times so some start at 10 and finish at 7.
At least that would reduce crowding at peak times
		
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If Kharnage hadn’t reduced many services people wouldn’t be as crowded as they find alternative routes, station changes are then crowded, the mans an idiot and has defied the government’s directive not to reduce services!


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			We’ve sent everyone home that we can. We’ve moved people about to limit interaction. We’ve taped off exclusion zones so that people can stay safe. We’ve done as much as possible in my view. I’ve also been impressed with the way the staff have acted in the main. In my view, these staff who keep the businesses running during this pandemic are just as important as anyone else. We all need something to return to when the doors finally open. At the very least, we should all have learned that we should not be looking down on any job, position or role. Without the lower paid there wouldn’t be any higher paid jobs.
		
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I totally agree with everything you say but it doesn't solve the problem of people getting to and from work.
People can't keep their distance in Tescos, never mind a busy train/bus/tram/tube


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

therod said:



			Whatever some think, I can’t survive on 80% basic + no chance of earning bonus. My furlough is supposed to be an average of my monthly earnings capped at £2.5k & also 80% when I get back for the foreseeable. That maybe ok in the short term, but my Mrs is self employed & her income has dropped off a cliff. How many of those proposing stay at home are retired & mortgage free ?
		
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You can also take mortgage and repayment holidays. Yes, that will increase your term. But everyone is gonna suffer in one way or another. I'd rather be furloughed. I can probably account for 10% loss simply with no travel to work and the rubbish I eat there. Add to that mo takeaways, not golf expenses and its doable. Obviosly some will struggle. But there are ways around it for most. 

That's the best you can hope for in a situation like this. It isn't possible to please everyone.


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## Ross61 (Apr 4, 2020)

therod said:



			Whatever some think, I can’t survive on 80% basic + no chance of earning bonus. My furlough is supposed to be an average of my monthly earnings capped at £2.5k & also 80% when I get back for the foreseeable. That maybe ok in the short term, but my Mrs is self employed & her income has dropped off a cliff. How many of those proposing stay at home are retired & mortgage free ?
		
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Fortunately I’m not affected by this as a I’m a key worker, therefore I have not looked into the furlough rules. Is the 80% when you get back to work “normally” to pay back the government or to help your company?


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			You can also take mortgage and repayment holidays. Yes, that will increase your term. But everyone is gonna suffer in one way or another. I'd rather be furloughed. I can probably account for 10% loss simply with no travel to work and the rubbish I eat there. Add to that mo takeaways, not golf expenses and its doable. Obviosly some will struggle. But there are ways around it for most.

That's the best you can hope for in a situation like this. It isn't possible to please everyone.
		
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Cheers for the insight into my finances 🤣🤣 if only I’d thought of the mortgage holiday 🤔
I’m very bonus heavy. The way around it is to go back to work


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## bluewolf (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I totally agree with everything you say but it doesn't solve the problem of people getting to and from work.
People can't keep their distance in Tescos, never mind a busy train/bus/tram/tube
		
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But there is no real solution. It may be worth thinking that these people are risking themselves to ensure that we all have a society to return to in 3/6/9/12 months. I know they’re not exactly doing it willingly, but we’d be in a far worse position without them.


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Fortunately I’m not affected by this as a I’m a key worker, therefore I have not looked into the furlough rules. Is the 80% when you get back to work “normally” to pay back the government or to help your company?
		
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No mate 80% = ‘help’ the company,  chancers !!


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'll answer the dog walking one for those who don't get it. We walk our dog, step outside the door etc most days, at the moment all of the time of course. That means you are repeating the same walk time and time again. There are different routes to take but ultimately there are limits. That gets dull for the walker and the dog. At a weekend, when we have free time, we will often get in the car and drive 4-5 miles and that takes us to a beach, a country park, a wood to walk in etc. Somewhere different, somewhere to safely let our dog off her lead for a run.

We are not doing any of this right now but in normal times it is standard for a lot of people. It's the same for walkers, would you expect them to ramble around their home streets only?
		
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I agree with you I’m normal times I can see that!
But not now.
I like a walk on the beach ,who dosnt.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'm sure they do.
But how do the staff get to work?
View attachment 29654

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A lot of this is media rubbish. Our footfall is down 95% and the customer loading on trains is much lower.

Don't believe everything you read.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Maybe some companies can alter start and finish times so some start at 10 and finish at 7.
At least that would reduce crowding at peak times
		
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That's an idea some companies are using


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## hovis (Apr 4, 2020)

on the dog walkers.   my friend drives 5 miles to a spot even though he has a cannal running along side his house.  he is elderly and makes the drive because the tow path is busy with walkers and he's scared to walk the area.  going to the wood gets him away from other people.     I can see both sides to the argument


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			.


The question was on the back of someone agreeing that it was okay to take their daughter out to their grandparents,  but at the same time couldn’t understand why people took the dogs for a drive to the park.

Neither of which irritates me, but amazed that someone though there was a difference.
		
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I think it was about his wife’s mental health!
Hi daughter went with them as she couldn’t be left at home!!


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

therod said:



			Cheers for the insight into my finances 🤣🤣 if only I’d thought of the mortgage holiday 🤔
I’m very bonus heavy. The way around it is to go back to work
		
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Your sarcasm aside (why state a problem if you don't wanna hear answers). 

Even if you go back to work, would you expect to bonuses (I presume performance related) in this current market?


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## User20205 (Apr 4, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Your sarcasm aside (why state a problem if you don't wanna hear answers).

Even if you go back to work, would you expect to bonuses (I presume performance related) in this current market?
		
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It wasn’t a problem I asked you to solve.  Depends on the economy when we get back. The optimistic believe a strong bounce back......not so sure. There will also be a significant supply issue even with a strong recovery. 16 week lag min imo


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## Jacko_G (Apr 4, 2020)

I'd love to stay at home on 80% instead of playing Covid 19 roulette every day.

At least I'm getting paid full whack so always a plus to every negative I guess.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Your sarcasm aside (why state a problem if you don't wanna hear answers).

Even if you go back to work, would you expect to bonuses (I presume performance related) in this current market?
		
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I bet the CEO would get a bonus for keeping the business running in this tough time .
So why not the workers?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Fortunately I’m not affected by this as a I’m a key worker, therefore I have not looked into the furlough rules. Is the 80% when you get back to work “normally” to pay back the government or to help your company?
		
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The furlough scheme is a payment made to companies to cover 80% of someone's wages, up to a top limit of £2,500 per month I believe. To receive this the person must be sent home, not working at all and be off for a minimum of 3 weeks. People are currently being sent home on this but the money is not actually available to companies yet. The aim is that firms do not make mass redundancies during this time, adding to worries and encouraging people to go to work when it also not safe for them to do so. It also helps to maintain the hope of a quick economic recovery once restrictions are relaxed. 

The companies can not just sack people and squirrel the money away. There will checks in place, somehow through HMRC, to ensure it works correctly.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd love to stay at home on 80% instead of playing Covid 19 roulette every day.

At least I'm getting paid full whack so always a plus to every negative I guess.
		
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Yes but your working ( you should be on danger money).
There must be people happy to stay at home for 80%
It’s driving me crackers .
If your on a decent wage minus expenses 80% is great.
But someone on 80% of basic pay who relies on performance related bonus may struggle.
There is no fix that pleases everyone.


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## DaveR (Apr 4, 2020)

It's starting to affect me quite badly now. Had to furlough the gardener and cut the south lawn myself 😳 Next to go will be my driver and her tennis coach, her sex life will take a hit 😳 

I'll keep my butler on as long as possible though 👍


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## hovis (Apr 4, 2020)

DaveR said:



			It's starting to affect me quite badly now. Had to furlough the gardener and cut the south lawn myself 😳 Next to go will be my driver and her tennis coach, her sex life will take a hit 😳

I'll keep my butler on as long as possible though 👍
		
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who will lower your drawbridge and feed the animals in your moat?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

DaveR said:



			It's starting to affect me quite badly now. Had to furlough the gardener and cut the south lawn myself 😳 Next to go will be my driver and her tennis coach, her sex life will take a hit 😳

I'll keep my butler on as long as possible though 👍
		
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Don’t worry about her sex life .
2m apart has taken care of that.


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

DaveR said:



			It's starting to affect me quite badly now. Had to furlough the gardener and cut the south lawn myself 😳 Next to go will be my driver and her tennis coach, her sex life will take a hit 😳

I'll keep my butler on as long as possible though 👍
		
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Didn't know you were an MP?


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I bet the CEO would get a bonus for keeping the business running in this tough time .
So why not the workers?
		
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If you have specific targets then the chances are, you arent going to hit them.

It wasn't a question of being deserving of them or not.

Also atm I'd imagine a higher % of ceos are working compared to staff. So they are more likely to be involved in keeping a company afloat.

Also, not all ceos are millionaire playboys making loads. What about those of smaller companies. Imo it just seems to be easy to label all ceos bad and all lower staff heroes..

At my place, all directors are still working. Having regularly meetings with government officials etc, whilst a lot of my colleagues were queueing up for furlough and have spent the last few days posting pics all over social media about getting paid to do nothing.


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2020)

Spanish flu, 1918 to 1920, had an infection rate and mortality rates a smidge either side of COVID. Globally, catching the numbers back then was near enough impossible. Spanish flu killed 10's of millions(known), and it is suggested it may have been somewhere between 80,000,000 and 100,000,000 when you factor in the then named 3rd world countries.

There is no vaccine for COVID yet. What do you think the numbers will be?

How people manage their lives within the restrictions and regulations is up to them. However, where you can try and do at least that and prefereably a lot more.

I've worked in around intensive cares for 30 years. I've seen MERS, SARS and a number of nasty things, and slept soundly on a night without barely a ripple. This absolutely scares the shine out of me.


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## jim8flog (Apr 4, 2020)

Out on my walk yesterday had the local rec to myself for quite a while

Could not decide on football cricket or rugby

I would post the pictures but they are too big for this site.

I am tempted to take a club and a couple of balls next time I go, the far end is well away from everything.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			If you have specific targets then the chances are, you arent going to hit them.

It wasn't a question of being deserving of them or not.

Also atm I'd imagine a higher % of ceos are working compared to staff. So they are more likely to be involved in keeping a company afloat.

Also, not all ceos are millionaire playboys making loads. What about those of smaller companies. Imo it just seems to be easy to label all ceos bad and all lower staff heroes..

At my place, all directors are still working. Having regularly meetings with government officials etc, whilst a lot of my colleagues were queueing up for furlough and have spent the last few days posting pics all over social media about getting paid to do nothing.
		
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Where did I say all CEOs are bad?
I merely pointed out if they get credit for keeping the company afloat so should the workers.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 4, 2020)

I had said to my wife about taking up a job as a shelf stacker at the local supermarket. I am more worried about post C19. Economic recovery and availability of jobs.. I am currently living on a redundancy payout but had an ISA as a back up but that has been significantly de-valued.
So I was thinking of stringing our what I have for longer.
The wife said no, the risk is too great. We have literally isolated ourselves. No external walks, or comms.. just running about the garden.


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## jim8flog (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I totally agree with everything you say but it doesn't solve the problem of people getting to and from work.
People can't keep their distance in Tescos, never mind a busy train/bus/tram/tube
		
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 Even our local Co Op went to one out one in yesterday with a limit on how many in the store at one time. However the aisles are so narrow it is impossible to keep 2m away from other customers except for when queuing for the till.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			So, is it necessary to put yourself up a ladder that you might fall off, and have contact with medics and others and risk getting yourself or your family infected, or vice versa. Was it that important to do it at this time.?
Of course, just living and moving around involves some risk, but it behoves  us to not increase that risk unnecessarily at a time like this.
		
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For clarity... My fall was long before the current 'situation'...

The only way to avoid any accident is to wrap ourselves in cotton wool... Yea, some will be taking risk [unacceptable risk in some cases] but from what I am seeing/hearing the vast majority are acting responsibly... There's never a good time to have an accident after all...


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## HowlingGale (Apr 4, 2020)

Just wondering what people's thoughts on deliveries from online companies were. 

Are you still ordering any old tosh and getting it delivered, or are you keeping it to essentials only? I'm trying to keep it to essentials only but have a real hankering to start spending money.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Where did I say all CEOs are bad?
I merely pointed out if they get credit for keeping the company afloat so should the workers.
		
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Different members/levels of staff will have different targets. So I think to blanket say that if a director gets it then so should the staff simply doesn't work. 

Many a company has sacked a director for a company not making the profits they want. Do they sack every member of staff as well?


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## Beezerk (Apr 4, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd love to stay at home on 80% instead of playing Covid 19 roulette every day.
		
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80% up to £2,500 a month  which equates to £30,000 a year before tax.
Imagine you earn £50,000 a year, you're all of a sudden taking a 20k paycut, a lot of families cannot afford to take that hit.
Ok, you're at home on your @rse doing nothing so effectively getting paid for sod all, but I know the majority of higher earners would much prefer to be at work.
I thought I would never say the words, but I have a lot of sympathy for some of the higher earners who may now struggle to pay their mortgage.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Just wondering what people's thoughts on deliveries from online companies were.

Are you still ordering any old tosh and getting it delivered, or are you keeping it to essentials only? I'm trying to keep it to essentials only but have a real hankering to start spending money.
		
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I'll be honest. I was trying to stop ordering. Along the lines of it being none essential, but having seen so many drivers out and about for deliveries I relented. I think until government rule that those companies have to close, there is no point stopping.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			80% up to £2,500 a month  which equates to £30,000 a year before tax.
Imagine you earn £50,000 a year, you're all of a sudden taking a 20k paycut, a lot of families cannot afford to take that hit.
Ok, you're at home on your @rse doing nothing so effectively getting paid for sod all, but I know the majority of higher earners would much prefer to be at work.
I thought I would never say the words, but I have a lot of sympathy for some of the higher earners who may now struggle to pay their mortgage.
		
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I think if I was in that position. Depending on length of service. I'd look to refuse the furlough. Which can be done. The company then have 3 options. 

Find a role for you, 
Pay the additional, 
Make you redundant. 

I had the convo at work and if I were to be furloughed then they woukd have made the difference up. It woukdnt have been as big a hit as you've painted, but woukd still have cost the company far less to top up than pay me off.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 4, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'd love to stay at home on 80% instead of playing Covid 19 roulette every day.

At least I'm getting paid full whack so always a plus to every negative I guess.
		
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Jacko, since the lockdown, have you noticed any reduction in the usual type of crime ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I think you ought to clarify that phrase. Are you suggesting he's been lying previously?  Or what.
		
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Not lying but being straight with us about what is realistically achievable rather than aspirational. I thought that that was obvious from ‘being straight with us’


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Jacko, since the lockdown, have you noticed any reduction in the usual type of crime ?
		
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Flashing, Dogging, please expand on what your thoughts are on ‘usual type of crime’, I think they differ north of the wall 😏


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## Beezerk (Apr 4, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I think if I was in that position. Depending on length of service. I'd look to refuse the furlough. Which can be done. The company then have 3 options.

Find a role for you,
Pay the additional,
Make you redundant.

I had the convo at work and if I were to be furloughed then they woukd have made the difference up. It woukdnt have been as big a hit as you've painted, but woukd still have cost the company far less to top up than pay me off.
		
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My company are definitely not topping up wages, I couldn't really go down any of the other routes as there is literally nothing for me to do. Just the nature of my job really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spot on!

I think what some people might miss is the number underneath a flat prolonged curve could still be very close to a curve that rises higher and fall sharply. As you say, all it does is reduce pressure and buy time. There is still no cure, only the potential for easier access to acute care if the flattening is achieved.
		
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Yup - the numbers under the flattened plateau may indeed be almost as many as a peak.  The difference is that the NHS is not able to cope with the huge number under the curve of a peak but over NHS capacity - and very many will die - whilst if the plateau is at or under the capacity of the NHS then a great many fewer will die.  The numbers infected might not be that different.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not lying but being straight with us about what is realistically achievable rather than aspirational. I thought that that was obvious from ‘being straight with us’
		
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Yup......agree with that, here is another who has gone a full 360 on Hancock. Very good performance yesterday compared to his previous cautious, scripted, don't scare the horses efforts.
He is getting closer to Nicola Sturgeon's standards now.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			My company are definitely not topping up wages, I couldn't really go down any of the other routes as there is literally nothing for me to do. Just the nature of my job really.
		
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I guess it depends How desperate times are. For me, I could get by ok on furlough. But if needs be, I’d have forced their hand. Having 12 years service I’d be entitled to a significant pay off and the. A true of the business I’m in means as soon as this is over. A job would be easy enough to find.

i realise not everyone is that fortunate.


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## DaveR (Apr 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I bet the CEO would get a bonus for keeping the business running in this tough time .
So why not the workers?
		
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Interesting moral dilemma. My company pays an annual bonus but it is based on the results for the calendar year Jan to Dec so technically I should get one. If I don't I will be disappointed but given what many others are experiencing right now it is hardly the end of the world if I don't get one.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			If Kharnage hadn’t reduced many services people wouldn’t be as crowded as they find alternative routes, station changes are then crowded, the mans an idiot and has defied the government’s directive not to reduce services!
		
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The plunging footfall [down by 90%+] is, for me, an endorsement of Sadiq sticking to his guns... If team tory wanted the tube to stay fully open to appease its paymasters... Then restoring its funding, from Westminster, would've been a good first step...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Just wondering what people's thoughts on deliveries from online companies were.

Are you still ordering any old tosh and getting it delivered, or are you keeping it to essentials only? I'm trying to keep it to essentials only but have a real hankering to start spending money.
		
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We are keeping deliveries at a normal ISH level but the things we have ordered have changed 

For example we ran out of some bits for the daughter craft wise.. so Amazon had it.. means we don't need to leave the house to get something to keep her entertained during this

Not that I could go get 

Companies want you to order to keep their money coming in. Take away food for example they need to make money still

The post office have said their staff will work the best they can to get people what they need

I get all my medication via the post anyways ... So that hasnt changed

Mrs got the daughter some 3-4 clothes as she's starting to grow out her clothes ATM and it's not like you can go get them 

Life still needs to happen you just have to adapt the way it happens


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2020)




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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



*The plunging footfall [down by 90%+] is, for me, an endorsement of Sadiq sticking to his guns...* If team tory wanted the tube to stay fully open to appease its paymasters... Then restoring its funding, from Westminster, would've been a good first step...
		
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I disagree, the many retail stores now closed along with all the office wallers that can work from home has reduced that footfall, and now most of the construction sites are giving way also, Kharnage won’t get any credit for that from me, although like most things, he’ll attempt to take credit. He’s reduced the services, causing crowded rattlers, people haven’t chosen not to come into the city just because of reduced services, that’s nonsense imo, the directive is, if you can work from home, do, so most of the city can and have.


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## DanFST (Apr 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			I disagree, the many retail stores now closed along with all the office wallers that can work from home has reduced that footfall, and now most of the construction sites are giving way also, Kharnage won’t get any credit for that from me, although like most things, he’ll attempt to take credit. He’s reduced the services, causing crowded rattlers, people haven’t chosen not to come into the city just because of reduced services, that’s nonsense imo, the directive is, if you can work from home, do, so most of the city can and have.
		
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Spot on. 

Remember he said it was impossible to get sick on public transport........


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			I disagree, the many retail stores now closed along with all the office wallers that can work from home has reduced that footfall, and now most of the construction sites are giving way also, Kharnage won’t get any credit for that from me, although like most things, he’ll attempt to take credit. He’s reduced the services, causing crowded rattlers, people haven’t chosen not to come into the city just because of reduced services, that’s nonsense imo, the directive is, if you can work from home, do, so most of the city can and have.
		
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Team tory wanted the tube to remain at full capacity to justify non-essential construction to continue... Sadiq didn't jump when told to do so... Leaving no justification for non-essential construction folk to be travelling into town... Pretty sure Londoners will be showing, come the next Mayoral election, who they believe made the right calls...


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## DanFST (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Team tory wanted the tube to remain at full capacity to justify non-essential construction to continue... Sadiq didn't jump when told to do so... Leaving no justification for non-essential construction folk to be travelling into town... Pretty sure Londoners will be showing, come the next Mayoral election, who they believe made the right calls...
		
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Where do you live Steve?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Where do you live Steve?
		
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"In the slow lane" ... Otherwise known as Ruislip in the London Borough of Hillingdon... 
Fortunately not the part of the borough Boris is MP for...


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## Mudball (Apr 4, 2020)

This is idiotic in normal times...  completely inexplicable in these times... 

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/arrest-after-holes-drilled-in-ambulance-tyres-224940/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

Mate is a Beefeater and is in lockdown at home in the Tower, he posted a 30 second video of the main entrance outside of the Tower this lunchtime, absolutely gobsmacked at the number of people bimbling, sitting around, out for a stroll and then add in the those out exercising.

How the message is going to get through to some of these people is beyond me! I’m all for those walking the dogs near home or those taking some exercise, but most of these were almost “tourist” like.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 4, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think it was about his wife’s mental health!
Hi daughter went with them as she couldn’t be left at home!!
		
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Yes and dogs need new places to sniff, hear and see for their health and well being. Their primary sense is their nose. No good taking them round the block all the time they’ll go mad. I wish it was that easy! 

But I’m a biased people hating, dog lover.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			If Kharnage hadn’t reduced many services people wouldn’t be as crowded as they find alternative routes, station changes are then crowded, the mans an idiot and has defied the government’s directive not to reduce services!
		
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Right. This isnt a dig at you so I apologise in advance.

However this is complete rubbish. We have to reduce the service.

Right now im in work. Normally on a saturday we would be running at this time 80 trains. thats fact . 

I have counted how many trains on my display there are 33. so more than a 3rd of the normal service

running at 6 mins intervals (normally off peak we provide approx 3 mins between trains)

we have to take a few away to allow for turn arounds at terminus otherwise it wouldnt work. so headways of 6 minutes 19 seconds

thats fact part 1

part 2. the reason the service is this low is due to driver following the guidelines correctly. they have been contacted and told to isolate if needed. so say a depot has 80 drivers for a morning its down to 35 to run the service.. thats rough figures as its changing on a fluid basis and I am not at liberty to say how many are or are not available.

I can assure you now that we are running every single train we possibly can

if, during the peak especially, a depot calls up with an extra couple drivers we instruct them to go the depot and prepare more trains to come into service. 

everyone is doing what they can.


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## DaveR (Apr 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			not at liberty to say how many are or are not available.




			It's OK you can tell me, I've signed the official secrets act 😉
		
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Click to expand...


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate is a Beefeater and is in lockdown at home in the Tower, he posted a 30 second video of the main entrance outside of the Tower this lunchtime, absolutely gobsmacked at the number of people bimbling, sitting around, out for a stroll and then add in the those out exercising.

How the message is going to get through to some of these people is beyond me! I’m all for those walking the dogs near home or those taking some exercise, but most of these were almost “tourist” like.
		
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I remember the girl on Love Island who didn’t know what Brexit was!
Some people don’t watch the news apparently .
Can’t see how you could miss this pandemic but some have???


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			If *they* don't go to work, can *they* _not_ claim back 80% of* their* pay from the government ?
		
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It's not up to them to decide to do so! So, I believe, the answer to the (worded in the negative, so somewhat unclear) is 'No they can't!' It's up to the employer to specify which employees are being told to stay at home and receive 80% - initially from the company but, presumably, claimed (by the company) from govt.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 4, 2020)

An email from our CEO to say he, the board and executives are all taking a 20% pay cut. Seems a decent gesture. Sure they're well paid but I don't envy them the workload or responsibility, so accordingly don't begrudge them being well rewarded for that.

80% of employees now furloughed.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Yes and dogs need new places to sniff, hear and see for their health and well being. Their primary sense is their nose. No good taking them round the block all the time they’ll go mad. I wish it was that easy!

But I’m a biased people hating, dog lover.
		
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Well if his owner has an accident it will be sniffing around the RSPCA compound or dogs trust.
So not only emergency services but dog services as well attending an RTA.


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## DanFST (Apr 4, 2020)

What line is that Paul?


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			...
People can't keep their distance in Tescos, never mind a busy train/bus/tram/tube
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this - and some idiots (certainly at my place) can't even abide by the sensible rules at work or on their 'sanity' exercise breaks!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			What line is that Paul?
		
Click to expand...

Northern 

Another point I'll add 

We have to provide an even service or the service simply doesn't work 

During normal week day peak it's 96 trains 

Say half drivers are off because of illness you could have 7 trains in a row cancelled due to duty lengths, meal breaks. A whole load of issues . It's not simply a case of right you drive from X to y there are law's you have to obey 

Drivers legally can't do overtime either which they want to help out drive extra couple hours but they can't by law 

In situations like that where you have so many cancellations and drivers unavailable you have to remove the timetable and put in a special timetable 

The depot managers tell you how many trains they can cover and between us and them we work out service patterns to keep even gaps 

Can you imagine having a train , then another 3 mins later then not one for 15 mins? Carnage 

It's a fluid situation 

Anyways I've bored everyone enough with this I just wanted some facts cus the media haven't a clue


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## Papas1982 (Apr 4, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Northern

Another point I'll add

We have to provide an even service or the service simply doesn't work

During normal week day peak it's 96 trains

Say half drivers are off because of illness you could have 7 trains in a row cancelled due to duty lengths, meal breaks. A whole load of issues . It's not simply a case of right you drive from X to y there are law's you have to obey

Drivers legally can't do overtime either which they want to help out drive extra couple hours but they can't by law

In situations like that where you have so many cancellations and drivers unavailable you have to remove the timetable and put in a special timetable

The depot managers tell you how many trains they can cover and between us and them we work out service patterns to keep even gaps

Can you imagine having a train , then another 3 mins later then not one for 15 mins? Carnage

It's a fluid situation

Anyways I've bored everyone enough with this I just wanted some facts cus the media haven't a clue
		
Click to expand...

I think one of the reasons people to take issue with the underground is the union. For quite some time now there have been multiple strikes and wage escalations. This frustrates those that use it. 

So if service lessens (for any reason) they get targeted.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I think one of the reasons people to take issue with the underground is the union. For quite some time now there have been multiple strikes and wage escalations. This frustrates those that use it.

So if service lessens (for any reason) they get targeted.
		
Click to expand...

you are quite correct there. I dont deny that at all.

I must say during this the unions and TFL have pulled together to their individual credits.

I believe we are providing what a can to the best we can during this crisis. the service is over used and underfunded as it. thats not an argument for today.

The company are asking anyone who used to work on the stations who ever held a licence there who now might be TFL office staff to get in touch if they want to assist our customers best they can.

for me anyone who does that hats off to them. could work from home in their office jobs but instead put themselves front line to help people.

I admire anyone who takes that up.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 4, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Just wondering what people's thoughts on deliveries from online companies were.

Are you still ordering any old tosh and getting it delivered, or are you keeping it to essentials only? I'm trying to keep it to essentials only but have a real hankering to start spending money.
		
Click to expand...

I am going to add to my previous post on this something we (mainly I) did this week which was a bit naughty but the companies involved wanted it to happen.

I have been looking for a new car since we found out about the twins. you cant go to show room atm due to covid. their still open for business though. so I did a lot of reviews etc and I settled on a car we liked.

I was just browsing. I found the model I liked for 4k cheaper than anywhere else (apart from supermarkets and such) nice condition.

facebooked the dealer for information. was given option of £500 to reserve it or £200 to deliver it (65 miles)

we reserved it. at that price couldnt not. 

we spoke about delivery with them thinking get in a month

they went we can get it there tomorrow........... I will add that this point my old car I was always giving away to my aunt ... turns out their car is broken right now. they cant even get to the shops they been having to taxi which is an extra risk

all fell into place. car arrived thursday.... they sprayed it down handed over.. I cleaned again myself. then my mum dropped the car to my aunts (I left key in my porch so she could not contact me, she filled it with shopping for them then left outside their house and posted key through box)

I will agree the dealers trip could be unnecessary . infact no excuse it 100% is

however my aunt now has a working car

we have our family car sorted. 

and a small dealer makes a tiny bit of cash to keep himself afloat


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

Are we losing our perspective or have any idea on the number of people that die everyday in the UK?

This isn’t meant to distract from the crisis we face but I was quite shocked at seeing today’s figure of 708 dying in the last 24hrs.

I looked up how many die on a daily basis in the UK and found the figures from the ONS for England and Wales up until week 12 (20th March) this year. These figures are for deaths registered, hence why they are only up to 20th March:

The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 20 March 2020 (week 12) was 10,645; this represents a decrease of 374 deaths registered compared with the previous week (week 11).

The average number of deaths for the corresponding week over the previous five years was 10,573; this means that the overall number of deaths in week 12 of 2020 was slightly higher than previous years.

103 deaths involving COVID-19 occurred in week 12, during the same period 1,841 deaths involved Influenza or pneumonia.

On average over 1,500 die a day in England and Wales, how many extra we are losing to Covid-19 I don’t know.

Not quite sure what to make of those figures apart from I/we take a lot of things for granted, our NHS is constantly under pressure regardless and sadly that’s a lot of grieving and hurting families out there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Gove speaking for a script like he’s delivering a speech in the HoC is rubbish.  The words and numbers mean little coming from his mouth in what is a rather condescending delivery.  Hancock brilliant by comparison.  Bring him back!

We need to be shocked. We need to see pictures of British people in British hospitals as we have seen of Italian and Spanish hospitals - and as we were shocked by them we need to be shocked seeing it ‘at home’.

And surely a terrible error being made by the BBC in their Breaking News stream which tells us that ...

In Scotland 218 people have died from coronavirus in 24hrs, up 46.

Surely they mean that 218 people have dies from coronavirus, in 24hrs up 46.

Unless 218 people DID die in Scotland in last 24hrs and that would be disastrous - but I very much doubt that.

But it’s still rolling through - someone should be carpeted for that !


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## Imurg (Apr 4, 2020)

Imperial College produced a graph earlier in the week showing expected male and female death rates by age - the numbers increase with age, fairly obvious.
They also mapped the death rate from C19 and it, more or less, mirrors the other lines. 
The only way to know for sure is to look at the numbers when this is all over.
I would be surprised if there wasn't an increase over normal numbers but how many will have to wait for another day.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 4, 2020)

Dave it's probably for security reasons, social security


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yup......agree with that, here is another who has gone a full 360 on Hancock. Very good performance yesterday compared to his previous cautious, scripted, don't scare the horses efforts.
He is getting closer to Nicola Sturgeon's standards now.

Click to expand...

Methinks you’ll end up heading the same way on Hancock if you turn 360deg - if you are like me you may have turned 180 degs on him 🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Are we losing our perspective or have any idea on the number of people that die everyday in the UK?

This isn’t meant to distract from the crisis we face but I was quite shocked at seeing today’s figure of 708 dying in the last 24hrs.

I looked up how many die on a daily basis in the UK and found the figures from the ONS for England and Wales up until week 12 (20th March) this year. These figures are for deaths registered, hence why they are only up to 20th March:

The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 20 March 2020 (week 12) was 10,645; this represents a decrease of 374 deaths registered compared with the previous week (week 11).

The average number of deaths for the corresponding week over the previous five years was 10,573; this means that the overall number of deaths in week 12 of 2020 was slightly higher than previous years.

103 deaths involving COVID-19 occurred in week 12, during the same period 1,841 deaths involved Influenza or pneumonia.

On average over 1,500 die a day in England and Wales, how many extra we are losing to Covid-19 I don’t know.

Not quite sure what to make of those figures apart from I/we take a lot of things for granted, our NHS is constantly under pressure regardless and sadly that’s a lot of grieving and hurting families out there.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of those who passed yesterday did so for reasons unrelated to coronavirus.  They still passed away but of course were not included in the daily CV figures.  Don’t know how the total figure for all deaths yesterday compares with a typical day at this time of year.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Thinking that what so many health and care workers on the front line would like in thanks for their selfless efforts and bravery would be permanent residence without need to apply.  By their actions they qualify for full residency in UK without any question...


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## DaveR (Apr 4, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Dave it's probably for security reasons, social security 

Click to expand...

Obviously the London underground is a state secret 🤣


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## DanFST (Apr 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A lot of those who passed yesterday did so for reasons unrelated to coronavirus.  They still passed away but of course were not included in the daily CV figures.  Don’t know how the total figure for all deaths yesterday compares with a typical day at this time of year.
		
Click to expand...

Typically around 1500 a day. So 50% more due to covid currently, 2200+.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A lot of those who passed yesterday did so for reasons unrelated to coronavirus.  They still passed away but of course were not included in the daily CV figures.  Don’t know how the total figure for all deaths yesterday compares with a typical day at this time of year.
		
Click to expand...

ONS figures are for England and Wales only and compare to all dates on website.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Typically around 1500 a day. So 50% more due to covid currently, 2200+.
		
Click to expand...

Is it 50% more though, how many would of died anyway, that’s why it’s difficult taking a one day snap shot.

How many of the 1800 in a week due to Influenza/Pneumonia will now be Covid-19? etc.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Just wondering what people's thoughts on deliveries from online companies were.

Are you still ordering any old tosh and getting it delivered, or are you keeping it to essentials only? I'm trying to keep it to essentials only but have a real hankering to start spending money.
		
Click to expand...

Daughter wanted to spend some of her birthday money on a kilo of sweets from amazon. But I said no as I didn't see that as a reason for someone to have to travel to deliver something. Then again I ordered some headphones for when I go on a jog the other day so I'm probably being a bit hypocritical.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it 50% more though, how many would of died anyway, that’s why it’s difficult taking a one day snap shot.

How many of the 1800 in a week due to Influenza/Pneumonia will now be Covid-19? etc.
		
Click to expand...

We wont know the answer to that I suspect. The numbers are already skewed as if you die whilst having covid 19 then you are classed as dying of it. That is wonky and inaccurate to me but it is how they are doing it. Perhaps it is part of the armoury to keep people inside, to exaggerate the figures this way?

Are post mortems happening now or not? If so, are numbers altered if the virus is not deemed to be the actual cause of death? I suspect not. Fear is a powerful tool in all of this.


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## IainP (Apr 4, 2020)

The daily figure is mainly there for the trajectory,  have a read at the link in post 
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...is-it-has-it-affected-you.104530/post-2146011
for some comparisons with last year from Italy.

The other factor is the numbers of beds/ventilators : other areas have reached the point where they can't treat people they think they can save. In a "normal" year, the types may be more spread out.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 4, 2020)

They don't build temp hostpitals and morgues , shut down most of the economy , every year for the normal flu outbreaks


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We wont know the answer to that I suspect. The numbers are already skewed as if you die whilst having covid 19 then you are classed as dying of it. That is wonky and inaccurate to me but it is how they are doing it. Perhaps it is part of the armoury to keep people inside, to exaggerate the figures this way?

Are post mortems happening now or not? If so, are numbers altered if the virus is not deemed to be the actual cause of death? I suspect not. Fear is a powerful tool in all of this.
		
Click to expand...

I think it’s been posted on here already about how autopsy’s report and why.


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Are we losing our perspective or have any idea on the number of people that die everyday in the UK?

This isn’t meant to distract from the crisis we face but I was quite shocked at seeing today’s figure of 708 dying in the last 24hrs.

I looked up how many die on a daily basis in the UK and found the figures from the ONS for England and Wales up until week 12 (20th March) this year. These figures are for deaths registered, hence why they are only up to 20th March:

The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 20 March 2020 (week 12) was 10,645; this represents a decrease of 374 deaths registered compared with the previous week (week 11).

The average number of deaths for the corresponding week over the previous five years was 10,573; this means that the overall number of deaths in week 12 of 2020 was slightly higher than previous years.

103 deaths involving COVID-19 occurred in week 12, during the same period 1,841 deaths involved Influenza or pneumonia.

On average over 1,500 die a day in England and Wales, how many extra we are losing to Covid-19 I don’t know.

Not quite sure what to make of those figures apart from I/we take a lot of things for granted, our NHS is constantly under pressure regardless and sadly that’s a lot of grieving and hurting families out there.
		
Click to expand...

If you're going to look up figures for the same week last year, I'd suggest that you look them up for the same week over several years to get a clearer picture. For example, if you look up how many died of flu each year you'll see some very different numbers. Some winter flu's are a nasty sniffle whilst others are killers. 

And then there's also the weather. If this week in any given year is in the middle of a very cold week, more will die. Equally, if a particular week is very warm, the numbers of deaths will drop.

Are the Covid numbers over egged? The number of ITU and general hospital beds taken up by the virus will be a good indicator. And from a previous indicator, i.e. 50% of all Covid patients that are in ITU will die gives a measure of what is to come.

Is it too early to draw solid conclusions for what will happen in the UK? In isolation, yes. But just have a look at Italy and Spain. Will the UK not mirror what's gone on before elsewhere? Why wouldn't it. What is so special about Brits that would make anyone think they won't see what's gone on elsewhere previously.


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2020)

4 sperate cases of it in the village, different families. Some Spanish, some English. No connection to the family that sneaked down from Madrid last weekend.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			4 sperate cases of it in the village, different families. Some Spanish, some English. No connection to the family that sneaked down from Madrid last weekend.
		
Click to expand...

That's worrying Bri. Stay safe mate.


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## Slime (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			The plunging footfall [down by 90%+] is, for me, an endorsement of Sadiq sticking to his guns... If team tory wanted the tube to stay fully open to appease its paymasters... Then restoring its funding, from Westminster, would've been a good first step...
		
Click to expand...

Wrong thread?


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## IainP (Apr 4, 2020)

FB is awash with videos, mainly from London area showing big disregard to distancing etc.- of course no idea how genuine.
Also the cycling society who had organised a big ride plus fish n chips - apparently since cancelled after outcry


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

Slime said:



			Wrong thread?
		
Click to expand...

Best ask the person who's post I was responding to... Difficult to say with so many covering the same ground...


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## Beezerk (Apr 4, 2020)

IainP said:



			FB is awash with videos, mainly from London area showing big disregard to distancing etc.- of course no idea how genuine.
Also the cycling society who had organised a big ride plus fish n chips - apparently since cancelled after outcry
		
Click to expand...

It's the central Republic of London though, surely you know their lives are worth 20 of us commoners 🤔😁


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

IainP said:



			FB is awash with videos, mainly from London area showing big disregard to distancing etc.- of course no idea how genuine.
Also the cycling society who had organised a big ride plus fish n chips - apparently since cancelled after outcry
		
Click to expand...

I’m in London daily, all over from Purley, Croydon through SE, SW, W and the City, the outskirts are quieter on the roads but still busy, the West End & City is very much void of traffic, but plenty of cyclists all over no doubt taking advantage of the quieter roads in their green Lycra 🤔

People are queuing on high streets, these queues are obviously very long due to distancing, but the worrying things I see, and mainly when I’m cutting through housing estates, is the amount of children & youths out on their own playing and just hanging around. 

Most large construction sites in the city are now closed, there’s still a few private large house conversations going on, but I’m noticing they’re slowing closing also, it’s like a ripple effect of the seriousness sinking in, but I’ve not seen large groups of people anywhere in South, West or Central London and I’m in and around it every day.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If you're going to look up figures for the same week last year, I'd suggest that you look them up for the same week over several years to get a clearer picture. For example, if you look up how many died of flu each year you'll see some very different numbers. Some winter flu's are a nasty sniffle whilst others are killers.

And then there's also the weather. If this week in any given year is in the middle of a very cold week, more will die. Equally, if a particular week is very warm, the numbers of deaths will drop.

Are the Covid numbers over egged? The number of ITU and general hospital beds taken up by the virus will be a good indicator. And from a previous indicator, i.e. 50% of all Covid patients that are in ITU will die gives a measure of what is to come.

Is it too early to draw solid conclusions for what will happen in the UK? In isolation, yes. But just have a look at Italy and Spain. Will the UK not mirror what's gone on before elsewhere? Why wouldn't it. What is so special about Brits that would make anyone think they won't see what's gone on elsewhere previously.
		
Click to expand...

Not saying there’s anything special about Brits or playing down the numbers or the pandemic, etc, just, in my own head trying to get my head round the numbers, like I put I was shocked today, but if last year during the same week or any average day last year the news headline was 1500 people had died in one day I think the Nation would of been shocked.

So at 56yrs Old and worried about mine and my family’s mortality I just wondered if we get wrapped up in our own little world and forget the realities of life at times.

In years to come will we look at covid-19 as just another type of flu and it’ll be accounted as another influenza death etc? I don’t know.

The figures on the ONS can be scrutinised to the Nth degree, I just chose a snap shot.


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## drdel (Apr 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If you're going to look up figures for the same week last year, I'd suggest that you look them up for the same week over several years to get a clearer picture. For example, if you look up how many died of flu each year you'll see some very different numbers. Some winter flu's are a nasty sniffle whilst others are killers.

And then there's also the weather. If this week in any given year is in the middle of a very cold week, more will die. Equally, if a particular week is very warm, the numbers of deaths will drop.

Are the Covid numbers over egged? The number of ITU and general hospital beds taken up by the virus will be a good indicator. And from a previous indicator, i.e. 50% of all Covid patients that are in ITU will die gives a measure of what is to come.

Is it too early to draw solid conclusions for what will happen in the UK? In isolation, yes. But just have a look at Italy and Spain. Will the UK not mirror what's gone on before elsewhere? Why wouldn't it. What is so special about Brits that would make anyone think they won't see what's gone on elsewhere previously.
		
Click to expand...

The unknown is the number who may have died had nothing been done - Sweden may provide insight.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Apr 4, 2020)

IainP said:



			FB is awash with videos, mainly from London area showing big disregard to distancing etc.- of course no idea how genuine.
Also the cycling society who had organised a big ride plus fish n chips - apparently since cancelled after outcry
		
Click to expand...

I did see that cycling one. 

I did think they must have been trying to wind someone up and clearly it’s worked. Mega backlash. 

Around here I have been sat in the garden today and you could hear plenty of motorbikes out. Popped to Tesco to do a weekly shop and a group of 3 went past. 

Clearly they don’t give a ....


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in London daily, all over from Purley, Croydon through SE, SW, W and the City, the outskirts are quieter on the roads but still busy, the West End & City is very much void of traffic, but plenty of cyclists all over no doubt taking advantage of the quieter roads in their green Lycra 🤔

People are queuing on high streets, these queues are obviously very long due to distancing, but the worrying things I see, and mainly when I’m cutting through housing estates, is the amount of children & youths out on their own playing and just hanging around.

Most large construction sites in the city are now closed, there’s still a few private large house conversations going on, but I’m noticing they’re slowing closing also, it’s like a ripple effect of the seriousness sinking in, but I’ve not seen large groups of people anywhere in South, West or Central London and I’m in and around it every day.
		
Click to expand...

Have you noticed any difference to the air quality ?


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Have you noticed any difference to the air quality ?
		
Click to expand...

I’m not sure if your being serious or not, so I’ll answer as diplomatically as I can, how the fcuk would I know 😳


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 4, 2020)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			I did see that cycling one.

I did think they must have been trying to wind someone up and clearly it’s worked. Mega backlash.

Around here I have been sat in the garden today and you could hear plenty of motorbikes out. Popped to Tesco to do a weekly shop and a group of 3 went past.

Clearly they don’t give a ....
		
Click to expand...

Wind up! They should be wound up from the neck.


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## drdel (Apr 4, 2020)

The BBC in its wisdom decides to use a straight line prediction for a known 'curve' !!

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-exper.../4/4/cbcfd9b1-4b26-4601-9310-a5aeb2b74ac8.png


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## DanFST (Apr 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC in its wisdom decides to use a straight line prediction for a known 'curve' !!

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-exper.../4/4/cbcfd9b1-4b26-4601-9310-a5aeb2b74ac8.png

Click to expand...

The scale is fine? It makes sense.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Have you noticed any difference to the air quality ?
		
Click to expand...

Don't recollect too many previous times when I've been able to look up to a clear sky without vapour trails in these parts...


----------



## Beezerk (Apr 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC in its wisdom decides to use a straight line prediction for a known 'curve' !!

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-exper.../4/4/cbcfd9b1-4b26-4601-9310-a5aeb2b74ac8.png

Click to expand...

Serious question though looking at this, would you expect the deaths graph to closely mirror the cases graph but with a delay?
Hope that makes sense


----------



## IainP (Apr 4, 2020)

New York reporting over 600 in 24 hours. Not sure of population size, maybe 9 million?


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## bobmac (Apr 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Don't recollect too many previous times when I've been able to look up to a clear sky without vapour trails in these parts...
		
Click to expand...

I was wondering if the air was cleaner/smelt fresher without the 1000s of cars, buses and lorries driving.


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## Imurg (Apr 4, 2020)

IainP said:



			New York reporting over 600 in 24 hours. Not sure of population size, maybe 9 million?
		
Click to expand...

NYC on it's own would sit behind Italy and ahead of Germany on cases alone, nearly 114k. They're only 5 or 6 hundred deaths behind us. 2017 population was 8.6 million.


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## Ross61 (Apr 4, 2020)

IainP said:



			New York reporting over 600 in 24 hours. Not sure of population size, maybe 9 million?
		
Click to expand...

They are normally quoted for the whole of New York State which has a population of approximately 20 million.


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## Imurg (Apr 4, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			They are normally quoted for the whole of New York State which has a population of approximately 20 million.
		
Click to expand...

I stand corrected on the population


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## Fish (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I was wondering if the air was cleaner/smelt fresher without the 1000s of cars, buses and lorries driving.
		
Click to expand...

Nope


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## DaveR (Apr 4, 2020)

Imurg said:



			NYC on it's own would sit behind Italy and ahead of Germany on cases alone, nearly 114k. They're only 5 or 6 hundred deaths behind us. 2017 population was 8.6 million.
		
Click to expand...

Fake news 🤣


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2020)




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## larmen (Apr 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC in its wisdom decides to use a straight line prediction for a known 'curve' !!

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-exper.../4/4/cbcfd9b1-4b26-4601-9310-a5aeb2b74ac8.png

Click to expand...

It does show that the rate stopped following the trend in one case but staying on rate in the other.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Get the feeling that talk of a peak in a week or two is being interpreted by some, possibly many, as meaning the worst will be over and so they can start to get back to normal,  so dangerous thinking because nope...sadly very not so I fear.


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## pendodave (Apr 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC in its wisdom decides to use a straight line prediction for a known 'curve' !!

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-exper.../4/4/cbcfd9b1-4b26-4601-9310-a5aeb2b74ac8.png

Click to expand...

I'm no mathematician, but I think that the use of a logarithmic scale is quite normal in these situations.
Having said that, I'm not sure how many of their readers will appreciate that..,


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## pendodave (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I was wondering if the air was cleaner/smelt fresher without the 1000s of cars, buses and lorries driving.
		
Click to expand...

It is. There have been a number of NO2 maps showing the difference between this year and last.
Where I live ( equidistant between stansted and Luton) the absence of airplane noise has been really noticeable. Î can't imagine what it must be like in West London.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m in London daily, all over from Purley, Croydon through SE, SW, W and the City, the outskirts are quieter on the roads but still busy, the West End & City is very much void of traffic, but plenty of cyclists all over no doubt taking advantage of the quieter roads in their green Lycra 🤔

People are queuing on high streets, these queues are obviously very long due to distancing, but the worrying things I see, and mainly when I’m cutting through housing estates, is the amount of children & youths out on their own playing and just hanging around. 

Most large construction sites in the city are now closed, there’s still a few private large house conversations going on, but I’m noticing they’re slowing closing also, it’s like a ripple effect of the seriousness sinking in, but I’ve not seen large groups of people anywhere in South, West or Central London and I’m in and around it every day.
		
Click to expand...

My son reports same ‘business as usual’ type behaviour in his estate close to Sheffield city centre - kids out and playing as normal and a fair degree of ignorance among some locals of the danger of the coronavirus - as in - I’m a fit healthy guy - what’s the big deal about this bug thing.  My son is worried about what’s going to happen in his city.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I was wondering if the air was cleaner/smelt fresher without the 1000s of cars, buses and lorries driving.
		
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A friend of my wife has noted her washing as smelling fresher after drying/airing outside...


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Get the feeling that talk of a peak in a week or two is being interpreted by some, possibly many, as meaning the worst will be over and so they can start to get back to normal,  so dangerous thinking because nope...sadly very not so I fear.
		
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Like this post. Just what I'm thinking. If we don't know how it started, how it is spread, how it effects different people, can it re-infect people who have already had it....and on and on and on. Four / Five months on from first found. China has no vaccine nor has anyone else. We have no idea what to do. We are only on lock down to prevent the NHS being over run. What happens when they let everyone out? the virus takes hold again? We don't know. No one bluddy knows!!!! There is no point spouting about how many deaths or anything else about it. We need to know where we are in solving the bluddy problem. Everything else is just pointless noise. People are ignoring instructions and I can see why. Tell us how we are going to defeat this. That's what we want to hear!!!! None of the moronic journos who get the chance to put questions to the government have even bothered to ask where we are in solving this. And why the hell are we being cooped up...apart from saving the NHS a load of mither. It's all a sack of poo and if the weather is good next Friday, there will be a huge rebellion, coz that's what we Brits do best, remember Brexit???? We need to be told if this can be stopped. If not, we'll take our chances.


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## Crazyface (Apr 4, 2020)

Oh, and on topic. I actually spoken to my next door neighbour for the first time in christ knows when. And I've asked her to consider chopping down the monstrosity conifer blocking daylight from out back garden. She is to discuss this with her DH husband to is to scared to come out of the house and has been in TOTAL isolation for three weeks now. Also I've spoken to our new next door but one neighbour who was chopping down a  monster tree. He's got four !!!! And intends to remove all four. Wahoooooooooo!!!!!!! 
SUNSHINE !!!!!!!!!!!! in the early morning !!!!!!!!!!


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## drdel (Apr 4, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm no mathematician, but I think that the use of a logarithmic scale is quite normal in these situations.
Having said that, I'm not sure how many of their readers will appreciate that..,
		
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I do not challenge the data. I challenge the stupidity of their 'Trend'. Their simplistic black line suggests a linear relationship, it fails to weight later data and the log scale distorts the trend. It is a picture not a reliable qualitative depiction of trend.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Scotland’s CMO tells everyone to stay at home, but then goes off to the coast to her 2nd home with the whole family & dogs in tow 🤔

Let’s wait for the Sturgeon spin on this 😜

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Like this post. Just what I'm thinking. If we don't know how it started, how it is spread, how it effects different people, can it re-infect people who have already had it....and on and on and on. Four / Five months on from first found. China has no vaccine nor has anyone else. We have no idea what to do. We are only on lock down to prevent the NHS being over run. What happens when they let everyone out? the virus takes hold again? We don't know. No one bluddy knows!!!! There is no point spouting about how many deaths or anything else about it. We need to know where we are in solving the bluddy problem. Everything else is just pointless noise. People are ignoring instructions and I can see why. Tell us how we are going to defeat this. That's what we want to hear!!!! None of the moronic journos who get the chance to put questions to the government have even bothered to ask where we are in solving this. And why the hell are we being cooped up...apart from saving the NHS a load of mither. It's all a sack of poo and if the weather is good next Friday, there will be a huge rebellion, coz that's what we Brits do best, remember Brexit???? We need to be told if this can be stopped. If not, we'll take our chances.
		
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They solve the problem by creating a vaccine. Up to that point they manage the situation as well as they can to prevent a lot of people dying. 

And the 'mither' we are helping the NHS with is their ability to effectively keep functioning. 

As for a huge rebellion and taking your chances then the NHS and anyone who knows someone who may need them in the next few months thanks you for that selfless action.


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## IainP (Apr 5, 2020)

Tough read
https://www.france24.com/en/2020040...nch-care-homes-a-tsunami-of-deaths-unnumbered

I fear that the UK may be in a similar place with regards to supporting this sector


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Oh, and on topic. I actually spoken to my next door neighbour for the first time in christ knows when. And I've asked her to consider chopping down the monstrosity conifer blocking daylight from out back garden. *She is to discuss this with her DH husband to is to scared to come out of the house and has been in TOTAL isolation for three weeks now*. Also I've spoken to our new next door but one neighbour who was chopping down a  monster tree. He's got four !!!! And intends to remove all four. Wahoooooooooo!!!!!!!
SUNSHINE !!!!!!!!!!!! in the early morning !!!!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

May be her husband is in a very vulnerable group and is self isolating to ensure he does not get the virus as there is a much greater chance if he got it he would die.

Or may be he's doing all he can to avoid hearing your views on the subject...


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Oh, and on topic. I actually spoken to my next door neighbour for the first time in christ knows when. And I've asked her to consider chopping down the monstrosity conifer blocking daylight from out back garden. *She is to discuss this with her DH husband to is to scared to come out of the house and has been in TOTAL isolation for three weeks now*. Also I've spoken to our new next door but one neighbour who was chopping down a  monster tree. He's got four !!!! And intends to remove all four. Wahoooooooooo!!!!!!!
SUNSHINE !!!!!!!!!!!! in the early morning !!!!!!!!!!
		
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My late father in law saw his first daughter at 6 weeks old and then didn't see her again until she was 2 years old.

Anne Frank and 7 others hid in an annexe for over 2 years to avoid the Nazis.

Nelson Mandela spent 27 years confined.

Given the current circumstances, is a few weeks isolation so much of a hardship?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Like this post. Just what I'm thinking. If we don't know how it started, how it is spread, how it effects different people, can it re-infect people who have already had it....and on and on and on. Four / Five months on from first found. China has no vaccine nor has anyone else. We have no idea what to do. We are only on lock down to prevent the NHS being over run. What happens when they let everyone out? the virus takes hold again? We don't know. No one bluddy knows!!!! There is no point spouting about how many deaths or anything else about it. We need to know where we are in solving the bluddy problem. Everything else is *just pointless noise.* People are ignoring instructions and I can see why. Tell us how we are going to defeat this. That's what we want to hear!!!! None of the moronic journos who get the chance to put questions to the government have even bothered to ask where we are in solving this. And why the hell are we being cooped up...apart from saving the NHS a load of mither. It's all a sack of poo and if the weather is good next Friday, there will be a huge rebellion, coz that's what we Brits do best, remember Brexit???? We need to be told if this can be stopped. If not, we'll take our chances.
		
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Oh the irony.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			May be her husband is in a very vulnerable group and is self isolating to ensure he does not get the virus as there is a much greater chance if he got it he would die.

*Or may be he's doing all he can to avoid hearing your views on the subject...*

Click to expand...

And who could blame him?


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2020)

I get what Crazyface is saying, the govt is drip feeding us bad news, they said 3 weeks to flatten the curve and give us manageable targets to cope with. They may need to keep isolating us for a year or two years but would never say that, no-one knows how long this will run. 
Many people will not be able to handle it long term. No money, claustrophobia, boredom etc.
Civil Unrest is not a term anyone wants to hear but the 'sod this for a game of soldiers we're going out' attitude will increase over time. Money or lack of will drive desperate people too.
We all know current measures are simply so NHS isn't overwhelmed, nothing to do with actually ridding us of the virus, just buying time.

Maybe Sweden have it right?

Hancock's idea of getting those who have had it antibody tested and certificated back to work makes sense. Herd immunity is an ugly term but that's what is happening.

Isn't it true without a vaccine the only way to defeat it is for every single person in the world to fully isolate at the same time for 3 weeks so it runs it's course with those carrying/suffering then dies off without new hosts? 
Cannot be done of course because as a humane species we treat our ill and we have to interact to do all manner of things like feed ourselves and keep societies and economies functioning.

Presently we are only just managing it to a degree. 

Happy Days!😟


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## IainP (Apr 5, 2020)

Think we need to watch S Korea & China to see how they progress and learn what we can.
Sweden has been toughening their stance and their medical profession demanding more.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Scotland’s CMO tells everyone to stay at home, but then goes off to the coast to her 2nd home with the whole family & dogs in tow 🤔

Let’s wait for the Sturgeon spin on this 😜

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

Potentially massive news (up here at least). Is there a possibility it's fake?
I'm no fan of the Scottish Government but think they've been handling this well.

If this is true she should be gone, fined and removed from the medical register. Just stupid.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

I'm actually starting to believe that "LYCRA" is the cure for Covid 19. 

Going by the idiots in large groups still cycling through the village I live in I think lycra is key to survival.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Potentially massive news (up here at least). Is there a possibility it's fake?
I'm no fan of the Scottish Government but think they've been handling this well.

If this is true she should be gone, fined and removed from the medical register. Just stupid.
		
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Only one option - new job for someone


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## rudebhoy (Apr 5, 2020)

Some rumblings that the lockdown could be eased off a bit in the next few weeks, but dependent somewhat on folk not trying to make the most of what is going to be a decent day weather wise and heading to parks, beaches etc.

I'm not saying easing things off is a good thing at all, but it is being floated as an idea.

However going by the pictures from Brighton beach and the London parks yesterday, it's not going to go well today.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Like this post. Just what I'm thinking. If we don't know how it started, how it is spread, how it effects different people, can it re-infect people who have already had it....and on and on and on. Four / Five months on from first found. China has no vaccine nor has anyone else. We have no idea what to do.* We are only on lock down to prevent the NHS being over run.* What happens when they let everyone out? the virus takes hold again? We don't know. No one bluddy knows!!!! There is no point spouting about how many deaths or anything else about it. We need to know where we are in solving the bluddy problem. Everything else is just pointless noise. People are ignoring instructions and I can see why. Tell us how we are going to defeat this. That's what we want to hear!!!! None of the moronic journos who get the chance to put questions to the government have even bothered to ask where we are in solving this*. And why the hell are we being cooped up...apart from saving the NHS a load of mither*. It's all a sack of poo and if the weather is good next Friday, there will be a huge rebellion, coz that's what we Brits do best, remember Brexit???? We need to be told if this can be stopped. If not, we'll take our chances.
		
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Of the phrases in bold, you seem to suggest that" saving the NHS some mother" is not really a good enough reason to coop us up.
Have you no imagination? Have you any idea what those NHS workers are going through, the risks they are taking for our sakes, that they will take for your sake if you are unfortunate enough to be in hospital with this?
Yes, this is new and incurable till a vaccine ( or appropriate existing medicine) is found.
I know that, most on here know that, so now to the things that are being done.
Ventilators are now getting produced, including deliveries of some from China!, Medicine are being trialled, clinical trials for vaccines are being urgently worked on.
But, you, in your frustration want to justify resuming normal because you fail to understand that no one can give you a definitive detailed answer in a definite timeline. That's because there isn't one, not because they are refusing to tell you.
Are you really going to resume normal, and encourage others to do the same , thereby overwhelming the NHS staff ( who are mithering, are they?),bolstered by the knowledge that rebelling is what we Brits do, it's an attribute, you know.

Sorry, you're wrong!


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Some rumblings that the lockdown could be eased off a bit in the next few weeks, but dependent somewhat on folk not trying to make the most of what is going to be a decent day weather wise and heading to parks, beaches etc.

I'm not saying easing things off is a good thing at all, but it is being floated as an idea.

However going by the pictures from Brighton beach and the London parks yesterday, it's not going to go well today.
		
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i may be being overly cynical (maybe the lockdown is getting to me 😇), but if I wanted to make sure that people focused their frustrations on other people, and not Government. Then the first thing I’d do is float the idea that the restrictions were about to be lifted just before a nice sunny extended weekend. Then I’d crackdown heavily once the pictures of people going to the country/beaches emerged in the media....... 🤨🤪🤣


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## Diamond (Apr 5, 2020)

I left the house yesterday for the first time since Monday. It was very busy and the cyclists can cover miles in a short space of time, most of them are in groups of 2 or more.  I would be happy for them to ban running and cycling But aI know it would be unpopular, the NHS staff who are struggling to get clean scrubs and masks etc would probably disagree especially with the amount of NHS workers getting ill With the disease. 
Its too easy to blame the government but when you have filthy rich doing nothing and absolute morons ignoring the stay at home message the country will be on its knees for a long time.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Like this post. Just what I'm thinking. If we don't know how it started, how it is spread, how it effects different people, can it re-infect people who have already had it....and on and on and on. Four / Five months on from first found. China has no vaccine nor has anyone else. We have no idea what to do. We are only on lock down to prevent the NHS being over run. What happens when they let everyone out? the virus takes hold again? We don't know. No one bluddy knows!!!! There is no point spouting about how many deaths or anything else about it. We need to know where we are in solving the bluddy problem. Everything else is just pointless noise. People are ignoring instructions and I can see why. Tell us how we are going to defeat this. That's what we want to hear!!!! None of the moronic journos who get the chance to put questions to the government have even bothered to ask where we are in solving this. And why the hell are we being cooped up...*apart from saving the NHS a load of mither.* It's all a sack of poo and if the weather is good next Friday, there will be a huge rebellion, coz that's what we Brits do best, remember Brexit???? We need to be told if this can be stopped. If not, we'll take our chances.
		
Click to expand...

It would appear to be a little more than mither for these deceased NHS workers;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/03/nhs-staff-died-coronavirus-frontline-workers-victims/

I wonder what their grieving relatives would make of your childish strop?


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## DanFST (Apr 5, 2020)

IainP said:



			Think we need to watch S Korea & *China* to see how they progress and learn what we can.
		
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- Ignoring advice to close animal markets since 2000, for this exact reason
- Destroying samples and silencing research in the early outbreak
- Silencing warnings from doctors to their own people
- Spreading a misinformation campaign to their own people
- Saying to the world its under control.
- Allowing 5 million people to leave Wuhan before the quarantine. 
- Lying about the number of deaths to the world and their own people.
- Blaming america for the outbreak.


A smart comment, we can learn all the positives from S Korea, they've handled it very well after their experience with MERS coronavirus in 2018. And we can learn all the negatives from China, who's regime once again has betrayed the people of China and this time, the world.


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## Diamond (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It would appear to be a little more than mither for these deceased NHS workers;

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/03/nhs-staff-died-coronavirus-frontline-workers-victims/

I wonder what their grieving relatives would make of your childish strop?
		
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Yes.
The lack of equipment for the NHS staff is the same in all the major countries in Europe. It’s a pandemic and we are at war with a Virus. No government can cope which is why it is down to us to help the NHS. If we fail we fail collectively as a society.
I am all for a more severe clamp down to help stop the NHS from getting ill and passing away.


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## IainP (Apr 5, 2020)

DanFST said:



			- Ignoring advice to close animal markets since 2000, for this exact reason
- Destroying samples and silencing research in the early outbreak
- Silencing warnings from doctors to their own people
- Spreading a misinformation campaign to their own people
- Saying to the world its under control.
- Allowing 5 million people to leave Wuhan before the quarantine.
- Lying about the number of deaths to the world and their own people.
- Blaming america for the outbreak.


A smart comment, we can learn all the positives from S Korea, they've handled it very well after their experience with MERS coronavirus in 2018. And we can learn all the negatives from China, who's regime once again has betrayed the people of China and this time, the world.
		
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I think I was pretty clear, I was looking forwards, not backwards.

I share some concerns about China, but have no evidence  and concluded missing them off was have likely result to being picked up on it.
With Wuhan "re-opening" it'll be interesting to see how things go.


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			If this is true she should be gone, fined and removed from the medical register. Just stupid.
		
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Agreed, very poor example to set if true. Should stand aside.

For consistency should HRH PoW not be castigated In the same way for taking a large entourage up from London to Deeside or does he not count because of his status?


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

@Crazyface 2m apart or 2m under, your choice.


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## DanFST (Apr 5, 2020)

IainP said:



			I share some concerns about China, but have no evidence  and concluded missing them off was have likely result to being picked up on it.
With Wuhan "re-opening" it'll be interesting to see how things go.
		
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From the minuscule amount of information available online from brave normal people turned into journalists. (Buses being turned into hearses, video's in hospitals and outside windows counting ambulances/hearses) I'm not sure how much relevant information there is to be learned. I'm scared that there's no stopping the spread anymore in Wuhan because there is no need. Herd immunity has been achieved, at tremendous cost for the poor people.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed, very poor example to set if true. Should stand aside.

For consistency should HRH PoW not be castigated In the same way for taking a large entourage up from London to Deeside or does he not count because of his status?
		
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I'm sure he has, major PR failure, as should those that drive for exercise and cant be bothered to pick up their dogs crap.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 5, 2020)

Since the partial lockdown everybody seems to be coming into work at the weekends. At least 2/3rds of the workforce are coming in for weekend overtime . I usually have the place to myself on a Sunday. Now it’s like a festering breeding ground all week.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed, very poor example to set if true. Should stand aside.

For consistency should HRH PoW not be castigated In the same way for taking a large entourage up from London to Deeside or does he not count because of his status?
		
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According to a Government spokesperson (read it in the Herald) its OK because she was just checking in the second home and stayed in her family group and away from other people. 
She went straight back to Edinburgh (the next day after staying the night).

So that's all OK then, totally justified... 🤔


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## HowlingGale (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed, very poor example to set if true. Should stand aside.

For consistency should HRH PoW not be castigated In the same way for taking a large entourage up from London to Deeside or does he not count because of his status?
		
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In a word, yes. The PoW is a privileged ar$e.

I work for the NHS. Ok, I'm a paper pusher who is working from home and going in when required, but I know a lot of doctors, nurses, and assistants etc.

These people are risking their lives to save the morons who get infected because they think the rules don't apply to them. Feel a bit too much emotion about this but those in authority need to lead by example. If she's not gone by the end of the day Sturgeon should resign.

Absolutely diabolical.


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## Hobbit (Apr 5, 2020)

A glimmer?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 5, 2020)

Easy to be critical, of others, from the comfort of a spacious semi with access to a garden... Opinions may be different from those confined to a pokey high rise flat with no easy access to an outdoor space...

Frightening to see a report, this week, of there being (at least) 780 families stuck in multi occupancy accommodation with shared facilities... Really don't know how I'd cope with that...


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

Italy seems to have similar reductions 
Here's hoping


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## Italian outcast (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Italy seems to have similar reductions 
Here's hoping
		
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And the number of patients in critical care is falling at last here in Italy- all very promising that we may be at the worst here (if that makes sense)

Nevertheless - critical to realise that people will still catch the virus, get ill, be admitted to hospital and will die - even as things are getting better


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## Italian outcast (Apr 5, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Potentially massive news (up here at least). Is there a possibility it's fake?
I'm no fan of the Scottish Government but think they've been handling this well.

If this is true she should be gone, fined *and removed from the medical register.* Just stupid.
		
Click to expand...

Stupid for sure, apologise and move on I hope 
You can't just find someone else with her current experience - its about to get critical in Scotland 
The bold is just ridiculous


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## Lincoln Quaker (Apr 5, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			According to a Government spokesperson (read it in the Herald) its OK because she was just checking in the second home and stayed in her family group and away from other people.
She went straight back to Edinburgh (the next day after staying the night).

So that's all OK then, totally justified... 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Agree. 
So we can now go out and have a day at the seaside because we are just going out with the family and not talking to anyone else. How can the police control anything whilst the people telling you to stay home are not even doing it. 

Pathetic hypocrisy yet again from someone employed in a higher position.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Agree.
So we can now go out and have a day at the seaside because we are just going out with the family and not talking to anyone else. How can the police control anything whilst the people telling you to stay home are not even doing it.

Pathetic hypocrisy yet again from someone employed in a higher position.
		
Click to expand...

It's all right, she's said sorry. 

Right, where's the motorbike keys, apologies in advance.


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I'm sure he has, major PR failure, as should those that drive for exercise and cant be bothered to pick up their dogs crap.
		
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Well I haven't driven the last week since dealing with virus, driving a short distance, I'm 2.5 miles and never gone further since this all started, is still ok we are officially told. Dogs need to run.
Stick and flick is a policy several landowning agencies say is ok, always have poop bags and would collect anywhere near people walking. 
Must be nice being perfect.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's all right, she's said sorry. 

Right, where's the motorbike keys, apologies in advance.
		
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Get yourself out there. 

The top brass says it’s ok. 

Brighton must only be 40 miles for you as that’s only what she travelled.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's all right, she's said sorry. 

Right, where's the motorbike keys, apologies in advance.
		
Click to expand...




That's fine, carry on


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Well I haven't driven the last week since dealing with virus, driving a short distance, I'm 2.5 miles and never gone further since this all started, is still ok we are officially told. Dogs need to run.
Stick and flick is a policy several landowning agencies say is ok, always have poop bags and would collect anywhere near people walking.
Must be nice being perfect.
		
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Not picking up is a fine here unfortunately driving around the country side isn't-yet.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Get yourself out there.

The top brass says it’s ok.

Brighton must only be 40 miles for you as that’s only what she travelled.
		
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Never mind her mileage, I'll take the hour and ten minutes, should be able to get nearer to 80 miles in that way.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)




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## Jamesbrown (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not picking up is a fine here unfortunately driving around the country side isn't-yet.
		
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You can leave mess in farmers fields and woodland. It’s mainly public spaces that you pick poo up. 

Stick and flick is backed by the national trust and forestry commission.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 5, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			Stupid for sure, apologise and move on I hope 
You can't just find someone else with her current experience - its about to get critical in Scotland 
The bold is just ridiculous
		
Click to expand...

Ridiculous? We'll agree to disagree on that.

This person has been used to front television ad campaigns up here telling people to stay at home. She is potentially damaging all the good work the Scottish government is doing and potentially causing a public health crisis. The idiots will now use this as an excuse to go and party in the park, or drive to their second homes or just be idiots.

I am under no illusions of what is coming our way. I work for the NHS and am involved in the new 'hospital' at the SEC and it is truly scary (still not convinced it will be big enough).

We need people at the helm that lead by example. Not potentially put people in harm's way with foolish, selfish actions.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 5, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Ridiculous? We'll agree to disagree on that.

This person has been used to front television ad campaigns up here telling people to stay at home. She is potentially damaging all the good work the Scottish government is doing and potentially causing a public health crisis. The idiots will now use this as an excuse to go and party in the park, or drive to their second homes or just be idiots.

I am under no illusions of what is coming our way. I work for the NHS and am involved in the new 'hospital' at the SEC and it is truly scary (still not convinced it will be big enough).

We need people at the helm that lead by example. Not potentially put people in harm's way with foolish, selfish actions.
		
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I agree about the stupidity and lack of example -i  just don't think she has to go and don't think it is helpful to Scottish healthcare that she goes at this critical moment - though she probably will
Its not a striking off offence - you should know that if you work for the NHS


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			You can leave mess in farmers fields and woodland. It’s mainly public spaces that you pick poo up.

Stick and flick is backed by the national trust and forestry commission.
		
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Intresting to know, I'll let the NT down here know. Save a fortune in bins along the SW footpath.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 5, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			I agree about the stupidity and lack of example -i  just don't think she has to go and don't think it is helpful to Scottish healthcare that she goes at this critical moment - though she probably will
Its not a striking off offence - you should know that if you work for the NHS
		
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Don't know about that. As a medical professional there are certain 'values' that they need to uphold in their daily lives, not just when practicing medicine. 
I'm not sure if what she has done will go against the Hippocratic oath but when those doctors attempted to bomb Glasgow airport there were not an insignificant number of doctors more outraged that they went against the Hippocratic oath that the actual act of trying to blow people up, if that makes sense. ( I am in no way trying to compare what she has done with those terrorists. I am using it as an example of how highly regarded the Hippocratic oath is and how their primary goal is the care of others)


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## Italian outcast (Apr 5, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Don't know about that. As a medical professional there are certain 'values' that they need to uphold in their daily lives, not just when practicing medicine.
I'm not sure if what she has done will go against the Hippocratic oath but when those doctors attempted to bomb Glasgow airport there were not an insignificant number of doctors more outraged that they went against the Hippocratic oath that the actual act of trying to blow people up, if that makes sense. ( I am in no way trying to compare what she has done with those terrorists. I am using it as an example of how highly regarded the Hippocratic oath is and how their primary goal is the care of others)
		
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I get what you're saying but all said and done she just made a *personal *error of judgement - folk do that (and often pay a personal price) 

While she may have damaged the message (and so may indirectly have put folk at risk and worse) - lots of similar things have also happened across the board from folk in positions of influence - you can't string them all up 

PS - at least she hasn't played the 'driving to take the dogs for a walk card' - yet


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## HowlingGale (Apr 5, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			I get what you're saying but all said and done she just made a *personal *error of judgement - folk do that (and often pay a personal price) 

While she may have damaged the message (and so may indirectly have put folk at risk and worse) - lots of similar things have also happened across the board from folk in positions of influence - you can't string them all up 

PS - at least she hasn't played the 'driving to take the dogs for a walk card' - yet 

Click to expand...

😁 No she hasn't. Maybe I am being harsh but it's horrible being cooped up and living by the rules, while the rule makers are flouting them. The next few weeks could be grim.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I'm sure he has, major PR failure, as should those that drive for exercise and cant be bothered to pick up their dogs crap.
		
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What’s worse is the ones who do pick dog dirt up in a little bag and just put it on your garden wall.
Who do they expect to put it in a bin.


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## IainP (Apr 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A glimmer?

View attachment 29684

Click to expand...

Let's hope so, and also that the UK can follow a downward trend in 10 to 16 days or whatever


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not picking up is a fine here unfortunately driving around the country side isn't-yet.
		
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It would be a fine in parks or a beach or where designated as illegal here too, rightly so.  You have very different access laws to us like trespass and much more people so I imagine dogs have to be on leads more. I think common sense is applicable, in a large conifer forest for example where there is no livestock and few visitors a dog can be off the lead safely and will do it's business somewhere often well off any tracks. The plastic sacks into landfill is a genuine consideration environmentally too and a cost in provision of bins and collection.


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## Ethan (Apr 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Get the feeling that talk of a peak in a week or two is being interpreted by some, possibly many, as meaning the worst will be over and so they can start to get back to normal,  so dangerous thinking because nope...sadly very not so I fear.
		
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The peak in a couple of weeks might only be the first of a number of peaks with only a modest drop off in between. The only 2 ways this thing will really end is if it is shown that exposure to either the infection or a vaccine covers durable immunity, and then if we get a large proportion of the population immune, ro some mix of those. Doing so by immunisation is relatively risk-free, but doing so by allowing infection will costs tens or hundreds of thousands of lives. Hence the Govt abandonment of their original herd immunity by controlled infection strategy. 

If durable immunity does not reaault from exposure we are in big trouble. 

It is also worth noting that this strategy of shielding is a risky one. Even if we achieve herd immunity numbers, that doesn't stop spread to indivudla cases, just the propagation (multiplication) in the community. The currently shielded will be at risk one way or another until they are able to be immunised.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Agreed, very poor example to set if true. Should stand aside.

For consistency should HRH PoW not be castigated In the same way for taking a large entourage up from London to Deeside or does he not count because of his status?
		
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Seriously poor judgement twice from the CMO, but the attention given to it by the unionist press whilst 'forgiving' the POW and the Tory Scottish Minister for much more serious breach of rules/protocol is not surprising.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 5, 2020)

From a Scottish perspective - "16 deaths at Burlington care home' is a far far greater worry 
But Scotland being what it is again misses the point


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

She should resign from her position and let someone who knows what they are talking about take her place


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			She should resign from her position and let someone who knows what they are talking about take her place
		
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Nah it's all a unionist stitch up, DfT will soon be screaming from the head of someone in the government but that's his hypercritical way.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Scotland’s CMO tells everyone to stay at home, but then goes off to the coast to her 2nd home with the whole family & dogs in tow 🤔

Let’s wait for the Sturgeon spin on this 😜

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/ne...&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

Her spin was the her CMO was bang out of order - and that it WILL NOT happen again - but as FM she trusts in the guidance that she is being provided by her.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Like this post. Just what I'm thinking. If we don't know how it started, how it is spread, how it effects different people, can it re-infect people who have already had it....and on and on and on. Four / Five months on from first found. China has no vaccine nor has anyone else. We have no idea what to do. We are only on lock down to prevent the NHS being over run. What happens when they let everyone out? the virus takes hold again? We don't know. No one bluddy knows!!!! There is no point spouting about how many deaths or anything else about it. We need to know where we are in solving the bluddy problem. Everything else is just pointless noise. People are ignoring instructions and I can see why. Tell us how we are going to defeat this. That's what we want to hear!!!! None of the moronic journos who get the chance to put questions to the government have even bothered to ask where we are in solving this. And why the hell are we being cooped up...apart from saving the NHS a load of mither. It's all a sack of poo and if the weather is good next Friday, there will be a huge rebellion, coz that's what we Brits do best, remember Brexit???? We need to be told if this can be stopped. If not, we'll take our chances.
		
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Sorry Crazyface but this is just irresponsible rubbish...aye do what we want and see the god almighty disaster we’ll initiate.  Yes - a bit like Brexit if you must...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Nah it's all a unionist stitch up, DfT will soon be screaming from the head of someone in the government but that's his hypercritical way.
		
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How about leaving it to the Scots to decide...down in England I suggest we haven’t a scoobies whether of not the Scottish CMO is doing a good job or not - and so worthy of staying in role.

If asked I think she should be sacked as there are too many fools abroad looking for any excuse to do just what they want and stick their fingers up to authority...and her being sacked by the FM would be a very strong statement of the seriousness of the situation for us all, each and every one of us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I get what Crazyface is saying, the govt is drip feeding us bad news, they said 3 weeks to flatten the curve and give us manageable targets to cope with. They may need to keep isolating us for a year or two years but would never say that, no-one knows how long this will run. 
Many people will not be able to handle it long term. No money, claustrophobia, boredom etc.
Civil Unrest is not a term anyone wants to hear but the 'sod this for a game of soldiers we're going out' attitude will increase over time. Money or lack of will drive desperate people too.
We all know current measures are simply so NHS isn't overwhelmed, nothing to do with actually ridding us of the virus, just buying time.

Maybe Sweden have it right?

Hancock's idea of getting those who have had it antibody tested and certificated back to work makes sense. Herd immunity is an ugly term but that's what is happening.

Isn't it true without a vaccine the only way to defeat it is for every single person in the world to fully isolate at the same time for 3 weeks so it runs it's course with those carrying/suffering then dies off without new hosts? 
Cannot be done of course because as a humane species we treat our ill and we have to interact to do all manner of things like feed ourselves and keep societies and economies functioning.

Presently we are only just managing it to a degree. 

Happy Days!😟
		
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Thing is - if the NHS is overwhelmed then many more people will die than need to. That’s why we need pictures of Brits in Brit hospitals on ventilators - and where we see six patients we need to be told very bluntly that statistically at least three of them are likely to die.


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## Wolf (Apr 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How about leaving it to the Scots to decide...down in England I suggest we haven’t a scoobies whether of not the Scottish CMO is doing a good job or not - and so worthy of staying in role.
		
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If it's OK for Scots to bemoan the English then it equally is OK for English to criticise the Scots.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

What an absolute shambles, she has to go, she has to resign, regardless of whether you think it's the wrong or right time to go, a message needs to go out to the public that what she did was unacceptable.

On another point, 2 or 3 weeks back I said we'd have 5000 deaths by the end of the month and a few had a go more or less saying I was talking nonsense, seems I was only about 4 days out. Just goes to show that not all were actually paying much attention to what was going on on 2 or 3 weeks back.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Her spin was the her CMO was bang out of order - and that it WILL NOT happen again - but as FM she trusts in the guidance that she is being provided by her.
		
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So everyone in Scotland has a free go if pulled by the cops.
If anyone is fined in the future for this they will be asking the question


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How about leaving it to the Scots to decide...down in England I suggest we haven’t a scoobies whether of not the Scottish CMO is doing a good job or not - and so worthy of staying in role.
		
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I don't know if she is good at her job. I don't know if her number 2 is good enough to step into her role to replace her. I do know that her credibility is completely shot though. How can she stand in front of people going forwards and tell them the restrictions they need to follow when she has so clearly flouted them?


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How about leaving it to the Scots to decide...down in England I suggest we haven’t a scoobies whether of not the Scottish CMO is doing a good job or not - and so worthy of staying in role.
		
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I havnt said whether she has or hadn't done a good job but for the SECOND week running she's pulled this stunt but if the people living in Scotland and the first minister think it's ok then that's obviously ok.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't know if she is good at her job. I don't know if her number 2 is good enough to step into her role to replace her. I do know that her credibility is completely shot though. How can she stand in front of people going forwards and tell them the restrictions they need to follow when she has so clearly flouted them?
		
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I think she should be sacked - to make the point - unfortunate perhaps but sometimes necessary


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

She will be gone within 24 hours would be my guess, the pressure upon Scot Gov will be too much. It's ban enough her doing so after standing in front of the nation live on TV telling everyone, but to then admit to doing it twice, beggars belief.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

There will be no stepping down or resignations accepted at this time in my opinion.

Possibly when this is over she will step aside but at the moment unity is required.

What she has done is extremely foolish and ignorant and as CC98 says it has just made the police's job 100 times harder and possibly very hypocritical. She should certainly have been charged for transparency reasons alone, however then again the public cry for discretion so she's also put the police behind the 8 ball.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

*MOD EDIT. THIS HAS BEEN DOING THE ROUNDS ON FACEBOOK AND MAY NOT BE TOTALLY ACCURATE*


*Finally, some sensible advice.  From a GP Nurse in the UK.*

*To Avoid Covid-19*

What I have seen a lot of are recommendations for how to try to avoid getting coronavirus in the first place.

• good hand washing
• personal hygiene
• social distancing

-- but what I have NOT seen a lot of is advice for what happens if you actually get it, which many of us will.

So as your friendly neighborhood Nurse let me make some suggestions:

*If you get Covid-19*

You basically just want to prepare as though you know you’re going to get a nasty respiratory bug, like bronchitis or pneumonia.

You just have the foresight to know it might come your way!

*Things you should actually buy ahead of time* (not sure what the obsession with toilet paper is?):

• *Kleenex,*

• *Paracetamol*,

• whatever your generic, mucus thinning *cough medicine* of choice is (check the label and make sure you're not doubling up on Paracetamol)

• *Honey and lemon* can work just as well!

• *Vicks* vaporub for your chest is also a great suggestion.

• *a humidifier* would be a good thing to buy and use in your room when you go to bed overnight. (You can also just turn the shower on hot and sit in the bathroom breathing in the steam).

• *If you have a history of asthma* and you have a prescription inhaler, make sure the one you have isn’t expired and refill it/get a new one if necessary.

• *Meals* This is also a good time to meal prep: make a big batch of your favorite soup to freeze and have on hand.

• *Hydrate (drink!) hydrate, hydrate!* Stock up on whatever  your favorite clear fluids are to drink - though tap water is fine you may appreciate some variety!

• *For symptom management* and a fever over 38°c, take Paracetamol rather than Ibuprofen.

• *Rest lots*. You should not be leaving your house!  Even if you are feeling better you may will still be infectious for fourteen days and older people and those with existing health conditions should be avoided!

• *Wear gloves and a mask* to avoid contaminating others in your house

• *Isolate* in your bedroom if not living alone, ask friends and family to leave supplies outside to avoid contact.

• *Sanitize* your bed linen and clothes frequently by washing and clean your bathroom with recommended sanitizers.

*You DO NOT NEED TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL unless* you are having trouble breathing or your fever is very high (over 39°C) and unmanaged with meds.
90% of healthy adult cases thus far have been managed at home with basic rest/hydration/over-the-counter meds.

*If you are worried or in distress or feel your symptoms are getting worse*

*Preexisting risks* If you have a pre-existing lung condition (COPD, emphysema, lung cancer) or are on immunosuppressants, now is a great time to talk to your Doctor or specialist about what they would like you to do if you get sick.

*Children-* One major relief to you parents is that kids do VERY well with coronavirus— they usually bounce back in a few days (but they will still be infectious), Just use pediatric dosing .

*Be calm and prepare rationally* and everything will be fine.

This is to inform us all that the pH for corona virus varies from 5.5 to 8.5.

All we need to do, to beat corona virus, we need to take more of an alkaline foods that are above the above pH level of the Virus.

Some of which are:
*Lemon - 9.9pH*
*Lime - 8.2pH*
*Avocado - 15.6pH*
*Garlic - 13.2pH*
*Mango - 8.7pH*
*Tangerine - 8.5pH*
*Pineapple - 12.7pH*
*Dandelion - 22.7pH*
*Orange - 9.2pH*

*MOD EDIT. THIS HAS BEEN DOING THE ROUNDS ON FACEBOOK AND MAY NOT BE TOTALLY ACCURATE*

How do you know you have coronavirus?

1. *Itching in the throat,*
2. *Dry throat,*
3. *Dry cough.*
4.   High temperature
5.   Shortness of breath

So where you notice these things quickly take warm  water with lemon  and drink. 

Do not keep this information to yourself only, Pass it to all your family and friends.

God bless you.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think she should be sacked - to make the point - unfortunate perhaps but sometimes necessary
		
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For those living in Scotland to decide.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2020)

https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/peter-may/lockdown/9781529411683/
One of my favourite authors...……..written quite a few years ago.

Nicola's take on the CMO is fine by me, she is doing a very good job but made a serious error of judgement.
We will all make errors during this difficult time.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			There will be no stepping down or resignations accepted at this time in my opinion.

Possibly when this is over she will step aside but at the moment unity is required.

What she has done is extremely foolish and ignorant and as CC98 says it has just made the police's job 100 times harder and possibly very hypocritical. She should certainly have been charged for transparency reasons alone, however then again the public cry for discretion so she's also put the police behind the 8 ball.
		
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Is she a doctor?
Maybe a stint back in her scrubs might refresh her moral compass a bit.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola's take on the CMO is fine by me, she is doing a very good job but made a serious error of judgement.
We will all make errors during this difficult time.
		
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Twice, within a week, after having stood on live TV telling everyone what THEY should do, she made a serious error of judgement, TWICE. 


Don't you think that calls in to question her judgement on other things ?


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/peter-may/lockdown/9781529411683/
One of my favourite authors...……..written quite a few years ago.

Nicola's take on the CMO is fine by me, she is doing a very good job but made a serious error of judgement.
We will all make errors during this difficult time.
		
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Ffs, it’s not an error, she’s been barking all the laws to follow for long enough to fully understand  err stand them, but then she selfishly tried to justify manipulating them for her own personal benefit, she should be sacked or resign, in these difficult times you have to rule with an iron fist, otherwise everyone now will cite her ‘error’, so she has to go, period!


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Is she a doctor?
Maybe a stint back in her scrubs might refresh her moral compass a bit.
		
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Send her down here and lock her in the real Scrubs 😜


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

For the record, what she actually did wasn't really that big of a deal, t becomes a big deal when you are the one who did it, is the very same person standing on live national tv telling others not to.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			For the record, what she actually did wasn't really that big of a deal, t becomes a big deal when you are the one who did it, is the very same person standing on live national tv telling others not to.
		
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I disagree, it’s what we’re having drummed into us, no unnecessary travel, which hers most definitely was. She at first attempted to say she practiced safe distancing, but we could all say that after a 30+ mile drive to the coast, so yes it’s a big deal, because as Matt H clearly states, this is law, not a request, and she broke it!


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## Hobbit (Apr 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How about leaving it to the Scots to decide...down in England I suggest we haven’t a scoobies whether of not the Scottish CMO is doing a good job or not - and so worthy of staying in role.

If asked I think she should be sacked as there are too many fools abroad looking for any excuse to do just what they want and stick their fingers up to authority...and her being sacked by the FM would be a very strong statement of the seriousness of the situation for us all, each and every one of us.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should delete the Trump thread too.

I've never been into people falling on their swords. If you're good enough to do a job, the odd mistake doesn't mean you're not capable of doing the job. However, these are extreme times and it needs people to be on the ball. This is a basic error. And if she's capable of making basic, short-sighted errors of judgement would you trust her with the next issue?

Reluctantly, get rid. It also sends a message that needs sending.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 5, 2020)

The thing is - she was only a forum 5-iron away from Crail (and didn't play) - shows some restraint


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## drdel (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			What an absolute shambles, she has to go, she has to resign, regardless of whether you think it's the wrong or right time to go, a message needs to go out to the public that what she did was unacceptable.

On another point, 2 or 3 weeks back I said we'd have 5000 deaths by the end of the month and a few had a go more or less saying I was talking nonsense, seems I was only about 4 days out. Just goes to show that not all were actually paying much attention to what was going on on 2 or 3 weeks back.
		
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Yup.  Taking a disspassionate analytic  look at the data it looks as if the 'death curve' is a few days behind the recorded infections. The shape in other country's data is fairly similar. I guess the UK is hoping that by reducing the kurtosis and praying the data has a skew below zero the death rate will be a steeper negative than It is now when It is rising but at hopefully slower rate.

IF the death curve tracks the infections (despite this being dependent on testing capability) we can expect the current level of fatalities to continue for another 3 weeks (8000 to 10000) before dropping for 3 or 4 weeks (another 3000 to 4000). Should the skew be 0 or above 1 we could be in isolation until July and tragically even more will die.

For simplicity it assumes random infection.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			I disagree, it’s what we’re having drummed into us, no unnecessary travel, which hers most definitely was. She at first attempted to say she practiced safe distancing, but we could all say that after a 30+ mile drive to the coast, so yes it’s a big deal, because as Matt H clearly states, this is law, not a request, and she broke it!
		
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Well I have my own opinion on things in regards moving about from place to place and they don't comply with gvt instructions so we'll agree to disagree.


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## Ethan (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			*Finally, some sensible advice.  From a GP Nurse in the UK.*

*MOD EDIT. THIS HAS BEEN DOING THE ROUNDS ON FACEBOOK AND MAY NOT BE TOTALLY ACCURATE*

This is to inform us all that the pH for corona virus varies from 5.5 to 8.5.

All we need to do, to beat corona virus, we need to take more of an alkaline foods that are above the above pH level of the Virus.

Some of which are:
*Lemon - 9.9pH*
*Lime - 8.2pH*
*Avocado - 15.6pH*
*Garlic - 13.2pH*
*Mango - 8.7pH*
*Tangerine - 8.5pH*
*Pineapple - 12.7pH*
*Dandelion - 22.7pH*
*Orange - 9.2pH*

How do you know you have coronavirus?

1. *Itching in the throat,*
2. *Dry throat,*
3. *Dry cough.*
4.   High temperature
5.   Shortness of breath

So where you notice these things quickly take warm  water with lemon  and drink.

Do not keep this information to yourself only, Pass it to all your family and friends.

God bless you.
		
Click to expand...

The part about the alkalinity is nonsense. Ignore. You may as well align your body along the north-south magnetic field of the Earth for all the good it will do you.

Anosmia (loss of taste) is also now a recognised sign of coronavirus, sometimes with loss of smell thrown in.

Another useful device worth considering a is a pulse oximeter which measures oxygen saturation. It attaches to the end of your finger, no pain or discomfort and gives a simple numerical reading. There is evidence that people with coronavirus may experience a falling oxygen saturation with fewer symptoms than usual. This is a bad thing.

You can get them from Amazon for about 20 or 30 quid. I bought one.


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## hovis (Apr 5, 2020)

she should be sacked.  if i got caught setting a small fire to a Bush in the park the police would give me a slap on the wrists.  my employer would sack me on the spot because I should know better and it puts out a very bad message


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			On another point, 2 or 3 weeks back I said we'd have 5000 deaths by the end of the month and a few had a go more or less saying I was talking nonsense, seems I was only about 4 days out. Just goes to show that not all were actually paying much attention to what was going on on 2 or 3 weeks back.
		
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Just to be clear, you said



HappyHacker1 said:



			They will within a couple of weeks when the UK will be reporting thousands of deaths, I suspect around 5000 *before the end of the month*.
		
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I checked, 30th March there were 1,408 deaths.

So some people were paying attention.
Incidentally today's figure is still under 5,000 

While that is still shocking, deaths yesterday were reported at 708. Todays figure has dropped to 621

Spain
Yesterday 749  today 471

Italy
Yesterday  681
Today 525

Germany 
Yesterday 169
Today 79

Netherlands 
Yesterday 164
Today115

So although we're certainly not out of the woods yet, there may be something positive happening.
Let's hope so for everyone's sake.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Well I have my own opinion on things in regards moving about from place to place and they don't comply with gvt instructions so we'll agree to disagree.
		
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So you’ll willfully disregard the law which is being instructed to us to follow, as in not to take any unnecessary journeys?


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Just to be clear, you said



I checked, 30th March there were 1,408 deaths.

So some people were paying attention.
Incidentally today's figure is still under 5,000

While that is still shocking, deaths yesterday were reported at 708. Todays figure has dropped to 621

Spain
Yesterday 749  today 471

Italy
Yesterday  681
Today 525

Germany
Yesterday 169
Today 79

Netherlands
Yesterday 164
Today115

So although we're certainly not out of the woods yet, there may be something positive happening.
Let's hope so for everyone's sake.
		
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Well found, I took ages trying to find that post and couldn't. 

Yes indeed we are still below the 5k mark though I did say around that mark. I've also noticed the death rate falling in the likes of Italy/Spain but suspect ours will pop up again as it has in these other two countries in the past couple of weeks.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			So you’ll willfully disregard the law which is being instructed to us to follow, as in not to take any unnecessary journeys?
		
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Have you ever sped in your car ?


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 5, 2020)

Two major points on the news from today.

The idiot Scottish health woman - she needs to be sacked on the spot.  She has done more damage to the public view on the virus than anyone else in the country.

The idiot British public - sunbathing in parks, going for long walks miles from home (Virginia Water was packed with cars all down the A30 according to Surrey Police) - BBQs, going to the beach etc -  we are all going to be in complete lockdown later this week - no exercising etc.    Thanks a lot to the morons out there.


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 5, 2020)

My next door neighbor is spending more than eight hours a day away from home. Now before you say it's work or looking after grandkids .no it isn't . They do go to her daughter's but to have a family get together with all the family turning up , how do I know .they told me it's up to them what they do and not some stuffy pm to tell her to stay at home. Now if I were to complain to the relevant authority would they do anything about it .I bet they wouldn't give a toss .but it boils my wee wee that they have a total disregard for the situation and openly admit to doing so .morons !!


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## Ethan (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			While that is still shocking, deaths yesterday were reported at 708. Todays figure has dropped to 621

Spain
Yesterday 749  today 471

Italy
Yesterday  681
Today 525

Germany
Yesterday 169
Today 79

Netherlands
Yesterday 164
Today115

So although we're certainly not out of the woods yet, there may be something positive happening.
Let's hope so for everyone's sake.
		
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Beware the weekend under-reporting, seen previously, with a bounce back up on Monday or Tuesday.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Have you ever sped in your car ?
		
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What a pathetic response, we’re in a world pandemic where people are dying because a virus spreads through movement of people, and you come back with that,


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## Ethan (Apr 5, 2020)

On the Scottish CMO question, I think she has been incredibly stupid, but I am not sure if her resigning now is a good idea. A suitably penitent CMO might show that the advice/regulations do apply to everyone. 

On the general question of travel, I agree that unnecessary travel should be discouraged, but the hazard is not in the travel itself, but in what happens when you get to wherever you are going. If that is a drive of a mile to get out of a busy area where you wouldn't be able to observe good social distancing to one where you can, or to get to a area with footpaths so you can run safely, then that is a sensible thing to do with probably reduces risk overall. 

Before someone says, 'Ah, but what if you have an accident?', vanishingly unlikely. By the same logic, the rozzers should be stopping cars, and if the driver says they are going to Tesco, redirect them to Asda because it is closer.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			What a pathetic response, we’re in a world pandemic where people are dying because a virus spreads through movement of people, and you come back with that,
		
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I'm going to assume you have broke the speed limits seeing as you got very aggressive with your reply so not much point in continuing to discuss this with someone who can't debate without abusing another member.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Twice, within a week, after having stood on live TV telling everyone what THEY should do, she made a serious error of judgement, TWICE.


Don't you think that calls in to question her judgement on other things ?
		
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Not from a medical perspective from what I can see, not that I am qualified in any way.
We have to look at the big picture now which is about saving lives [in case anyone had forgotten]
The sight of all those slavering Unionist hacks using this opportunity take a pop at the First Minister at the press conference was pretty depressing.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 5, 2020)

First of all, I like the Italian cufflinks just above.  I only have a few French cuffed shirts left, but I would like a pair of those.  Maybe with a matching lapel pin.
Second, I just sent out a series of emails to my friends from the club, all seniors, and thankfully, everybody replied.

Right now, it occurs to me that I miss hanging out at the club more than I miss playing golf. I wouldn't be playing a lot of golf in chilly April anyway, but I socialize at the club all through the year.  Not now, of course.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not from a medical perspective from what I can see, not that I am qualified in any way.
We have to look at the big picture now which is about saving lives [in case anyone had forgotten]
The sight of all those slavering Unionist hacks using this opportunity take a pop at the First Minister at the press conference was pretty depressing.
		
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I'm not a unionist, anything but and do find it rather pathetic those having a go at NS but as for the CMO, if for no other reason than to satisfy public anger, she needs to to fall on her sword.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			First of all, I like the Italian cufflinks just above.  I only have a few French cuffed shirts left, but I would like a pair of those.  Maybe with a matching lapel pin.
Second, I just sent out a series of emails to my friends from the club, all seniors, and thankfully, everybody replied.

Right now, it occurs to me that I miss hanging out at the club more than I miss playing golf. I wouldn't be playing a lot of golf in chilly April anyway, but I socialize at the club all through the year.  Not now, of course.
		
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Can you not skype or zoom with your friends ?

https://www.cnet.com/news/skype-vs-zoom-video-chat-apps-for-working-from-home-compared/


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Can you not skype or zoom with your friends ?
		
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One would think, right? 
Sadly, we're all geriatric Luddites and helpless with post 1965 technology.
I should be getting kudos just for being on the internet at all.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

When you get your new puppy, whether you teach it yourself or go to training classes it takes 2 weeks to get it to ‘sit’ and ‘stay’.......I guess dogs are more intelligent than some humans on here 🤔


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## JustOne (Apr 5, 2020)

There's a huge arguement about testing.....

WHY do we need testing right now?


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not from a medical perspective from what I can see, not that I am qualified in any way.
We have to look at the big picture now which is about saving lives [in case anyone had forgotten]
The sight of all those slavering Unionist hacks using this opportunity take a pop at the First Minister at the press conference was pretty depressing.
		
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Her message was "stay at home, it saves lives" which is the big picture.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Have you ever sped in your car ?
		
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Bet he has, them roads are fast now! Zooooom


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

JustOne said:



			There's a huge arguement about testing.....

WHY do we need testing right now?
		
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We don’t imo, I think it could cause panic and hysteria, if you have the symptons, to any degree, but don’t need to be hospitalized, then stay at home and follow all the recommendations. Testing positive in the hundreds of thousands could cause havoc imo and  overwhelm all our services.


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## Captainron (Apr 5, 2020)

Cath Kidston and Debenhams are going....

Wife’s going to he grumpy and I’m going to hear about it....


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm going to assume you have broke the speed limits seeing as you got very aggressive with your reply so not much point in continuing to discuss this with someone who can't debate without abusing another member.
		
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You call that abuse? What planet are you on?
You are wrong, plain and simple.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not from a medical perspective from what I can see, not that I am qualified in any way.
We have to look at the big picture now which is about saving lives [in case anyone had forgotten]
The sight of all those slavering Unionist hacks using this opportunity take a pop at the First Minister at the press conference was pretty depressing.
		
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It's just as well then its "Do as I say, not do as I do"
Typical reply to anything remotely critical of Scottish. Obviously SNP members are immune for the virus.


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## DanFST (Apr 5, 2020)

JustOne said:



			There's a huge arguement about testing.....

WHY do we need testing right now?
		
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As someone who's fairly certain I've had it, it would be fantastic if I could check. 

I could do lots of jobs for others they are unable to do. There's a lot of people alone.


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## JustOne (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			We don’t imo, I think it could cause panic and hysteria, if you have the symptons, to any degree, but don’t need to be hospitalized, then stay at home and follow all the recommendations. Testing positive in the hundreds of thousands could cause havoc imo and  overwhelm all our services.
		
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That's pretty much what I was thinking.




DanFST said:



			As someone who's fairly certain I've had it, it would be fantastic if I could check.

I could do lots of jobs for others they are unable to do. There's a lot of people alone.
		
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So there are 2 types of test, one to see if you have it and one to see if you've HAD it.

So assuming you got tested (because you think you've had it) and YES you've had it.... now what? Do you think the rest of the Country could benefit from seeing you out and about?

And what if it's NO, you havent had it?  .... wasted anyone's time?


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

DanFST said:



			As someone who's fairly certain I've had it, it would be fantastic if I could check.

I could do lots of jobs for others they are unable to do. There's a lot of people alone.
		
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Is it a fact that if you’ve had it to some degree and have since self isolated and now show no symptoms, you’re immune?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Well found, I took ages trying to find that post and couldn't.

Yes indeed we are still below the 5k mark though I did say around that mark. I've also noticed the death rate falling in the likes of Italy/Spain but suspect ours will pop up again as it has in these other two countries in the past couple of weeks.
		
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These are peoples lives your talking about, I’m genuinely not sure whether your proud of your prediction or disappointed it wasn’t correct!


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## hovis (Apr 5, 2020)

I find it amusing that so many people think they've had it when probability says it was more likely to be the flu by a long shot. perhaps its why the government want to check.  if anyone who "thinks" they've had it goes round acting imune then we're gonna be stuffed again


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			For those living in Scotland to decide.
		
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You’ll no doubt have spotted the post (#4182) I made very shortly before restating this when I had said ‘if asked...’


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2020)

Sack the Scottish Chief Medic. If ever we need an example to set about staying in it's this. So many will see this and think "if she can" and so if the good weather persists I predict many more out on the streets this week


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2020)

I think it’s been mentioned on here before, but currently watch the BBC News and the report on people going out, they panned the camera back and there were 3 BBC Crew, (reporter, sound man, cameraman) plus the person holding the camera filming the 3, surely that is taking the mickey, plus how many cars were used to get them to the outside location or did all 4 travel together?

Surely someone needs to be asking if all this is necessary!


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			I find it amusing that so many people think they've had it when probability says it was more likely to be the flu by a long shot. perhaps its why the government want to check.  if anyone who "thinks" they've had it goes round acting imune then we're gonna be stuffed again
		
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I agree, if you’ve not been tested, then I think you have to ‘assume’ you’ve not had it even though you had ‘some’ of the symptoms! I accept that they’ll be many thousands possibly who have had it to some degree, and may have self isolated and now feel ok, but without a test knowing you were positive, not just negative, and then think you’re possibly immune, we’ll that’s like playing Russian roulette, but with other people lives not just there’s!!


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sack the Scottish Chief Medic. If ever we need an example to set about staying in it's this. So many will see this and think "if she can" and so if the good weather persists I predict many more out on the streets this week
		
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Bit of an overreaction there Homer, unless of course you think Gove shouldn't be in the cabinet, obviously having a thing for class A's isn't a great example is it?


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Bit of an overreaction there Homer, unless of course you think Gove shouldn't be in the cabinet, obviously having a thing for class A's isn't a great example is it?
		
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Why would you sack the most qualified/best person for the job in a medical crisis? She should apologise/explain her reasons, but to sack seems knee jerk.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You call that abuse? What planet are you on?
You are wrong, plain and simple.
		
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The post was edited by a moderator.


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			I agree, if you’ve not been tested, then I think you have to ‘assume’ you’ve not had it even though you had ‘some’ of the symptoms! I accept that they’ll be many thousands possibly who have had it to some degree, and may have self isolated and now feel ok, but without a test knowing you were positive, not just negative, and then think you’re possibly immune, we’ll that’s like playing Russian roulette, but with other people lives not just there’s!!
		
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Just because you've had it and have built up an immunity it doesn't mean you can't still pass it on to others.
Me and the Mrs are 95% certain we've had it but we're still following all the rules.
And although there's some evidence that you can't get reinfected they don't know for certain.


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Why would you sack the most qualified/best person for the job in a medical crisis? She should apologise/explain her reasons, but to sack seems knee jerk.
		
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I wouldn’t sack her. However, I would expect her to stand down once this is over. Her race is run now. Use her knowledge and expertise to beat this then allow her to walk away, knowing her reputation will always be tarnished.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			These are peoples lives your talking about, I’m genuinely not sure whether your proud of your prediction or disappointed it wasn’t correct!
		
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Pointing out the fact that a number of weeks back, many on here were not taking this virus seriously, possibly yourself included.


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## DanFST (Apr 5, 2020)

JustOne said:



			That's pretty much what I was thinking.




So there are 2 types of test, one to see if you have it and one to see if you've HAD it.

So assuming you got tested (because you think you've had it) and YES you've had it.... now what? Do you think the rest of the Country could benefit from seeing you out and about?

And what if it's NO, you havent had it?  .... wasted anyone's time?
		
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The antibody test doesn't exist yet.... There's a few gone out (the spanish from china spring to mind) but none have been laboratory verified and the Spanish ones were complete duds.

If i had it, yes the country could benefit.

Macro level - I can contribute to society as usual and not take state aid(i'm not, but there are probably many people like me).
Micro level - there's 6 people I know who are completely alone due to health issues and risk. Including a 100 year old that can't even use a mobile or pc. As someone that has been quarantined for over 5 weeks (was lucky enough to have a day and half out before we got locked down) these people being alone worries me terribly.

In my circumstance it over a month ago, so early doors. I could have easily gone to the hospital and got tested, but living in London I didn't want to run the risk of infecting anyone getting to the hospital. Having an italian missus, I was well aware of how serious it could have been if I did. If there was contact tracing I would have been found instantly and then tested. (My missus' desk mate was taken to hospital for bad symptoms and tested positive)


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

She has been taken off the front line campaign now but will remain in post. 

Move on.

She has been incredibly stupid and slapped the Scottish public in the face with her hypocrisy. She will keep her job till this is over at least.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I wouldn’t sack her. However, I would expect her to stand down once this is over. Her race is run now. Use her knowledge and expertise to beat this then allow her to walk away, knowing her reputation will always be tarnished.
		
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Agreed. She has shown an error in judgement. However these are odd times, people make bad calls under stress


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I wouldn’t sack her. However, I would expect her to stand down once this is over. Her race is run now. Use her knowledge and expertise to beat this then allow her to walk away, knowing her reputation will always be tarnished.
		
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No need for this. She's only driven to her other home for christ sake. Read he the riot act and let her carry on her job. Final warning.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			She has been taken off the front line campaign now but will remain in post.

Move on.

*She has been incredibly stupid and slapped the Scottish public in the face with her hypocrisy.* She will keep her job till this is over at least.
		
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Like what most MP's do on a weekly basis.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			She has been taken off the front line campaign now but will remain in post.

Move on.

She has been incredibly stupid and slapped the Scottish public in the face with her hypocrisy. She will keep her job till this is over at least.
		
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no sack her....give the baying mob what they want 
Especially those outside of her jurisdiction


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Bit of an overreaction there Homer, unless of course you think Gove shouldn't be in the cabinet, obviously having a thing for class A's isn't a great example is it?
		
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He’s got 5g on his iPhone


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			She has been taken off the front line campaign now but will remain in post.

Move on.

She has been incredibly stupid and slapped the Scottish public in the face with her hypocrisy. She will keep her job till this is over at least.
		
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Be interesting to see how ranter Morgan deals with the First Minister tomorrow, it appears she's now relented and going on his program just before 0800 hrs


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Agreed. She has shown an error in judgement. However these are odd times, people make bad calls under stress
		
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The error of judgement she made was on a monumental scale given her position, it's not like she was on national television every night telling the nation what you should and shouldn't do, oh wait, she was and not only that, she made that very same "error of judgement" twice.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Be interesting to see how ranter Morgan deals with the First Minister tomorrow, it appears she's now relented and going on his program just before 0800 hrs
		
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Nicola will be very open and honest. Dr Calderwood will still in her role. She has been invaluable blah blah blah....


However she will no longer front the campaign.

Nicola is not daft she is a very astute and clever woman.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			The error of judgement she made was on a monumental scale given her position, it's not like she was on national television every night telling the nation what you should and shouldn't do, oh wait, she was and not only that, she made that very same "error of judgement" twice.
		
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You not burst your drum yet?


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			no sack her....give the baying mob what they want 
Especially those outside of her jurisdiction 

Click to expand...

Jurisdiction is irrelevant when it becomes an item on the National News, goes all around the country and gives everyone an excuse.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			The error of judgement she made was on a monumental scale given her position, it's not like she was on national television every night telling the nation what you should and shouldn't do, oh wait, she was and not only that, she made that very same "error of judgement" twice.
		
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Is she the best person for the job, I genuinely don’t know. If she is, she’s employed for her medical knowledge not political nouse


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## DanFST (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Is it a fact that if you’ve had it to some degree and have since self isolated and now show no symptoms, you’re immune?
		
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It's not a fact, but seems to be the case. If it's not the case we are royally *******.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Jurisdiction is irrelevant when it becomes an item on the National News, goes all around the country and gives everyone an excuse.
		
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Not really, would you post if she was French?


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## Ethan (Apr 5, 2020)

JustOne said:



			There's a huge arguement about testing.....

WHY do we need testing right now?
		
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Two answers. 
Antigen testing is needed for selected cases, particularly front line staff. Only a minority of those who self isolate with symptoms have coronavirus. If we can ID cases more accurately a lot of unnecessary self-isolation can be avoided. 

Antibody testing is needed to better understand the prevalence in the community and identify those who missed antigen testing who had the virus. It could be that a sizeable fraction of the population has been exposed and that will affect the suppression strategy.


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Not really, would you post if she was French?
		
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So if the Chief Constable of the Met  did the same thing and it was reported on national tv youd have nothing to say about it..?
Yeah, right.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Jurisdiction is irrelevant when it becomes an item on the National News, goes all around the country and gives everyone an excuse.
		
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She's now making the news (nationally) instead of informing the news, not normally a good sign.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Not really, would you post if she was French?
		
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no, but this is mainland UK, of which the laws are what they are, until you vote to leave and build a wall 😏


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## drdel (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			She's now making the news (nationally) instead of informing the news, not normally a good sign.
		
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Saw it in passing so I may have misheard but did she admit to having done it before ?


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

I honestly don’t care that much and please correct me if I’m wrong. The Scottish healthcare system is devolved? Under the jurisdiction of the Scottish govt, about as relevant to me as the French


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Why would you sack the most qualified/best person for the job in a medical crisis? She should apologise/explain her reasons, but to sack seems knee jerk.
		
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She has apologised and explained that she had no excuse.
Trouble is she is/was the face of all the Public Health Info being pumped out in Scotland.
All that will have to be re-done.
She will not interface with the public for the foreseeable future but will keep her job, which she seems to be very good at.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			Saw it in passing so I may have misheard but did she admit to having done it before ?
		
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I’m pretty sure I’ve read she’d been carpeted before, not sure what the details were though.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			She's now making the news (nationally) instead of informing the news, not normally a good sign.
		
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Agreed it looks bad I’m not defending her but.... political point scoring aside, if she’s the best for the job etc etc


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Pointing out the fact that a number of weeks back, many on here were not taking this virus seriously, possibly yourself included.
		
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You playing Virus Bingo is irrelevant to how anyone on here is approaching the Virus then or now. 
Government estimates are anywhere between 7-20,000 deaths and rising, all I hope is it’s as low as possible.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She has apologised and explained that she had no excuse.
Trouble is she is/was the face of all the Public Health Info being pumped out in Scotland.
All that will have to be re-done.
She will not interface with the public for the foreseeable future but will keep her job, which she seems to be very good at.
		
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 This is all that really matters


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			Saw it in passing so I may have misheard but did she admit to having done it before ?
		
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Two weekends on the trot.
No one knew about the first one until she mentioned it.


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## chrisd (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			So if the Chief Constable of the Met  did the same thing and it was reported on national tv youd have nothing to say about it..?
Yeah, right.
		
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Why would the Chief Constable of the Met go to Scotland and stay with her? 😂😂


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			She has apologised and explained that she had no excuse.
Trouble is she is/was the face of all the Public Health Info being pumped out in Scotland.
All that will have to be re-done.
She will not interface with the public for the foreseeable future but will keep her job, which she seems to be very good at.
		
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If a Tory did this you’d be all over it like a tramp on sandwich


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Two weekends on the trot.
No one knew about the first one until she mentioned it.
		
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So that’s ok is it?

You and the other pant wetters
Would be like dogs with 2 dicks if a Tory had done this


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Why would the Chief Constable of the Met go to Scotland and stay with her? 😂😂
		
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Heard she’s easy, aren’t most up there 🤔

😏


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			How do you know she's not a tory?
		
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because dft would have a completely different opinion 👍


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			So that’s ok is it?

You and the other pant wetters
Would be like dogs with 2 dicks if a Tory had done this
		
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nice  is this really about the woman in question or some other agenda


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2020)

Travelling to a second home an hour away was risky, wandering about on the golf course getting her picture taken was plain daft. 
Odd really, could she not envisage something like this happening? Seems not.

From her accent it's pretty clear she's from Northern Ireland, does that change the view of the SNP/Sturgeon/Devolution/Holyrood/Scots haters any? People saying they dont care what happens up here then get all over this matter like a rash. 
I dont think the CMO role is even party political, they're a senior civil servant, an advisor to Govt's. The media furore seems purely political - Ruth Davidson tweeting looking for a head just to point score. This lockdown is messing with people's heads.

Lady did wrong and will pay a price for it.

Moving on is anyone making a point of watching what HM Queen has to say?  I really can't see it being influential, times have moved on, perhaps a comfort of sorts to some hopefully.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just because you've had it and have built up an immunity it doesn't mean you can't still pass it on to others.
Me and the Mrs are 95% certain we've had it but we're still following all the rules.
And although there's some evidence that you can't get reinfected they don't know for certain.
		
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Not sure that's right. As I understand it from what I've heard on the briefings, there are two types of test.
The antibody test( about which things have gone quiet!) tells you if you have had it , and recovered. And it generally believed that you are immune for about a year, and that you are not infectious. If that is the case, and it is believed to be highly likely, then you can return to normal living. 
And that means if they are NHS staff , it is vital.
That's why I want to hear how near we are to this test for NHS, then other front liners, then us.
As to the other test , to see if you have the disease, that is not as useful except in the case of those who prove positive, who if they recover, then become able to return to normal, e.g Matt Hancock.
If you test negative however, there's limited benefit because you may be positive two days later,.
Mind you, for front line staff, it's better than no test, means if you get some symptoms of something, the test will check whether you can carry on. The symptoms you have may be some other thing, I.e cold.
As for contact tracing, I think that is totally unrealistic , unless there's something I don't know about the method.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm serious, though. She's a civil servant not a politician. I have literally no idea what her politics are and I don't see how anyone else commenting here would.
		
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dft would have done a background check, he’d have known what she had for tea before supporting/backing her 👍


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			People saying they dont care what happens up here then get all over this matter like a rash..
		
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Because "this matter" stopped being a Scottish matter the moment it went on national news.
Everyone will have heard about it by now and it gives an excuse to anyone who wants to flaunt the rules and travel unnecessarily. 
I dont care whether she's the best for the job or what her politics are...she's potentially caused the police a massive headache just at the time we need to keep people inside.


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not sure that's right. As I understand it from what I've heard on the briefings, there are two types of test.
The antibody test( about which things have gone quiet!) tells you if you have had it , and recovered. And it generally believed that you are immune for about a year, and that you are not infectious. If that is the case, and it is believed to be highly likely, then you can return to normal living.
And that means if they are NHS staff , it is vital.
That's why I want to hear how near we are to this test for NHS, then other front liners, then us.
As to the other test , to see if you have the disease, that is not as useful except in the case of those who prove positive, who if they recover, then become able to return to normal, e.g Matt Hancock.
If you test negative however, there's limited benefit because you may be positive two days later,.
Mind you, for front line staff, it's better than no test, means if you get some symptoms of something, the test will check whether you can carry on. The symptoms you have may be some other thing, I.e cold.
As for contact tracing, I think that is totally unrealistic , unless there's something I don't know about the method.
		
Click to expand...

I can still, pass on the virus through touch.
I could pick it up from a door handle, supermarket trolley, or anything else and pass it on from that.
I might be immune and not directly infectious but I still have to obey the restrictions


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			So that’s ok is it?

You and the other pant wetters
Would be like dogs with 2 dicks if a Tory had done this
		
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Give it a rest man.…......How do you know  that the CMO is not a Tory supporter.


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			No need for this. She's only driven to her other home for christ sake. Read he the riot act and let her carry on her job. Final warning.
		
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Sorry bud, but it’s incredibly irresponsible. She’s normalised additional travel. Let her finish what she’s been tasked with then allow her to resign.


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## JustOne (Apr 5, 2020)

JustOne said:



			There's a huge arguement about testing.....

WHY do we need testing right now?
		
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Ethan said:



			Two answers.
Antigen testing is needed for selected cases, particularly front line staff. Only a minority of those who self isolate with symptoms have coronavirus. If we can ID cases more accurately a lot of unnecessary self-isolation can be avoided.

Antibody testing is needed to better understand the prevalence in the community and identify those who missed antigen testing who had the virus. It could be that a sizeable fraction of the population has been exposed and that will affect the suppression strategy.
		
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Of your two answers...

You test your front line nurse, he/she does *not* have it... and then he/she goes to work and comes home with a sore throat...???

or gets it and potentially spreads it around a bit.

I understand the antigen testing in terms of developing a better/quicker/cheaper/possibly more efficient test but surely you'd need to test the entire country? and isn't it too early to be worrying about that right now?


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			nice  is this really about the woman in question or some other agenda
		
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It’s a about the CMO ignoring her own advice but the forum pant wetters thinking it’s ok


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry bud, but it’s incredibly irresponsible. She’s normalised additional travel. Let her finish what she’s been tasked with then allow her to resign.
		
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Just seen where the pics come from, not surprised, really should've known better.

Stitched up.


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## DCB (Apr 5, 2020)

A fair bit of latitude has been given this evening, let's not get silly over this please.


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Just seen where the pics come from, not surprised, really should've known better.

Stitched up.
		
Click to expand...

I bet I could guess 👍


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			No need for this. She's only driven to her other home for christ sake. Read he the riot act and let her carry on her job. Final warning.
		
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Can anyone remind me how much grief the Prince of Wales got on here for driving to his second home?   

And he only did it once...


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## bluewolf (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can anyone remind me how much grief the Prince of Wales got on here for driving to his second home?   

And he only did it once...
		
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To be fair, the POW had been tested positive at that point. Somewhat worse IMO.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Travelling to a second home an hour away was risky, *wandering about on the golf course getting her picture taken was plain daft.*
Odd really, could she not envisage something like this happening? Seems not.

From her accent it's pretty clear she's from Northern Ireland, does that change the view of the SNP/Sturgeon/Devolution/Holyrood/Scots haters any? People saying they dont care what happens up here then get all over this matter like a rash.
I dont think the CMO role is even party political, they're a senior civil servant, an advisor to Govt's. The media furore seems purely political - Ruth Davidson tweeting looking for a head just to point score. This lockdown is messing with people's heads.

Lady did wrong and will pay a price for it.

Moving on is anyone making a point of watching what HM Queen has to say?  I really can't see it being influential, times have moved on, perhaps a comfort of sorts to some hopefully.
		
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Shes hardly posing for the camera. It looks like shes been papped by that abhorrent organisation. 

Yes, she's ignored government advice, hardly worth losing a job over.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can anyone remind me how much grief the Prince of Wales got on here for driving to his second home?  

And he only did it once...
		
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Dont remember anyone calling for him to lose his job etc...

She deserves the criticism that comes her way, but losing her job is over the top


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## Jimaroid (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Because "this matter" stopped being a Scottish matter the moment it went on national news.
Everyone will have heard about it by now and it gives an excuse to anyone who wants to flaunt the rules and travel unnecessarily.
I dont care whether she's the best for the job or what her politics are...she's potentially caused the police a massive headache just at the time we need to keep people inside.
		
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Or. We could look at the story from the point of view that she’s been rightly reprimanded by the Police in the same way as many other people are being reprimanded daily. Should all those other people reprimanded immediately resign from their jobs too? Of course not. 

People make mistakes, this modern clamour for resignation over any mistake is a political manipulation overriding common sense. 

Besides which, everyone is missing the real story in all of this; that Priti Patel somehow pulled off a global pandemic to avoid getting the sack. One hell of a dead cat.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			To be fair, the POW had been tested positive at that point. Somewhat worse IMO.
		
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Had he; according to the BBC report he was tested by NHS Aberdeenshire which suggests he was already there before he found out. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52033845


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Shes hardly posing for the camera. It looks like shes been papped by that abhorrent organisation.

Yes, she's ignored government advice, hardly worth losing a job over.
		
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She’s the one telling everyone else to stay at home but this was her second 2nd trip to her second home but it’s all the suns fault 😂🤣🤣🤣


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 5, 2020)

Ok guys
Enough now.

Let’s take 5


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok guys
Enough now.

Let’s take 5
		
Click to expand...

Can I do a Diane abacus and take 354653354?


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Because "this matter" stopped being a Scottish matter the moment it went on national news.
Everyone will have heard about it by now and it gives an excuse to anyone who wants to flaunt the rules and travel unnecessarily.
I dont care whether she's the best for the job or what her politics are...she's potentially caused the police a massive headache just at the time we need to keep people inside.
		
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She hasn't potentially caused the police a massive headache - SHE HAS.

That said it doesn't detract from the fact that she can still do her job.


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok guys
Enough now.

Let’s take 5
		
Click to expand...

5 trips to my second home??? 😂🤣


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Just seen where the pics come from, not surprised, really should've known better.

Stitched up.
		
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Nah, sorry mate, own goal of the first order.  If she doesn't go she can't be photographed there.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 5, 2020)

She is the Scottish health  minister who lays down the laws for us then flaunts them herself.
Her position is untenable.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			She’s the one telling everyone else to stay at home but this was her second 2nd trip to her second home but it’s all the suns fault 😂🤣🤣🤣
		
Click to expand...

Lets get it right, Johnson and co are telling, she's passing the message on 👍

She deserves all the criticism that comes her way, but not to lose her job, especially when there's a cabinet minister who have previous for class A's telling people to stay in. 

The least said about that organisation, the better.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I dont care whether she's the best for the job or what her politics are...she's potentially caused the police a massive headache just at the time we need to keep people inside.
		
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She may be CMO but her specialty is gynaecology.
If anyone should be there advising the country it should be an expert in microbiology and virology


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Nah, sorry mate, own goal of the first order.  If she doesn't go she can't be photographed there.
		
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Of course, but she still doesnt deserve to lose her job over it.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			She may be CMO but her specialty is gynaecology.
If anyone should be there advising the country it should be an expert in microbiology and virology
		
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Sure this has been covered off before. I believe her current area of expertise is medical administration, hence her position


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

It’s a little sad,  the mass hysteria this has caused. Stay inside, wash your hands, worry about what directly affects you


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			She is the Scottish health  minister who lays down the laws for us then flaunts them herself.
Her position is untenable.
		
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err....I think you'll find that she isn't 

Is her head ion a stick yet ? I demand her stoning atop King Arthur's eat, preferably by midday tomorrow.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s a little sad,  the mass hysteria this has caused. Stay inside, wash your hands, worry about what directly affects you
		
Click to expand...

Hey I'd just like to apologise to you as a new member of this forum.  You haven't even had a chance to post anything about golf yet but have solely been involved in taking a seriously biased view on this thread.   I am sure you will get to post about your own course, three putting and the PGA tour in the future …...


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## Crazyface (Apr 5, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I get what Crazyface is saying, the govt is drip feeding us bad news, they said 3 weeks to flatten the curve and give us manageable targets to cope with. They may need to keep isolating us for a year or two years but would never say that, no-one knows how long this will run.
Many people will not be able to handle it long term. No money, claustrophobia, boredom etc.
Civil Unrest is not a term anyone wants to hear but the 'sod this for a game of soldiers we're going out' attitude will increase over time. Money or lack of will drive desperate people too.
We all know current measures are simply so NHS isn't overwhelmed, nothing to do with actually ridding us of the virus, just buying time.

Maybe Sweden have it right?

Hancock's idea of getting those who have had it antibody tested and certificated back to work makes sense. Herd immunity is an ugly term but that's what is happening.

Isn't it true without a vaccine the only way to defeat it is for every single person in the world to fully isolate at the same time for 3 weeks so it runs it's course with those carrying/suffering then dies off without new hosts?
Cannot be done of course because as a humane species we treat our ill and we have to interact to do all manner of things like feed ourselves and keep societies and economies functioning.

Presently we are only just managing it to a degree.

Happy Days!😟
		
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Thank you. I know I sound a bit nutty and a tad extreme (views slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan someone once said), but my rage is because we (them that get the opportunity) are not asking the right questions of the people in charge.


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Lets get it right, Johnson and co are telling, she's passing the message on 👍

She deserves all the criticism that comes her way, but not to lose her job, especially when there's a cabinet minister who have previous for class A's telling people to stay in.

The least said about that organisation, the better.
		
Click to expand...

She’s Scotland’s chief medical officer who sees fit to ignore her own advice  twice, but lets blame the sun  newspaper


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			She is the Scottish health  minister who lays down the laws for us then flaunts them herself.
Her position is untenable.
		
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She doesn't lay down the laws. She advises.

Huge difference.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I can still, pass on the virus through touch.
I could pick it up from a door handle, supermarket trolley, or anything else and pass it on from that.
I might be immune and not directly infectious but I still have to obey the restrictions
		
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Ah, yes, you are completely right what you say here. My comments were about the re infected bit😀.
I was envisaging the situation where NHS staff had tested for antibodies etc and I thought you were suggesting they would still be able to pass on the virus to patients because of breathing at close quarters etc, as in the treatment situations.
Essential we're on the same hymn sheet😁


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Sure this has been covered off before. I believe her current area of expertise is medical administration, hence her position
		
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Does that qualify her to answer questions about the virus?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			She is the Scottish health  minister who lays down the laws for us then flaunts them herself.
Her position is untenable.
		
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Far from it, she is the Scottish Chief Medical Officer, I believe that is a Civil Service appointment.


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			She doesn't lay down the laws. She advises.

Huge difference.
		
Click to expand...

And ignores that advice twice


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			And ignores that advice twice
		
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And???

I believe I've covered that previously.


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## Jimaroid (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			And ignores that advice twice
		
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And is reprimanded in line with the law like others.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			And???

.
		
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....she should resign with immediate effect


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			And is reprimanded in line with the law like others.
		
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So that’s ok is it?


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			And is reprimanded in line with the law like others.
		
Click to expand...


But others haven't been on national television live telling the nation what they should and shouldn't be doing.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Hey I'd just like to apologise to you as a new member of this forum.  You haven't even had a chance to post anything about golf yet but have solely been involved in taking a seriously biased view on this thread.   I am sure you will get to post about your own course, three putting and the PGA tour in the future …...
		
Click to expand...

biased, aka ‘doesn’t agree with your view’? Not sure if you’ve noticed, there’s not much golf to chat about currently


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Does that qualify her to answer questions about the virus?
		
Click to expand...

More qualified than most? I’m sure she has consulted experts


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## Jimaroid (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			So that’s ok is it?
		
Click to expand...

Until you can quote the law under which a person has to resign as a result of a mistake under this circumstance, yes.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			She’s Scotland’s chief medical officer who sees fit to ignore her own advice  twice, but lets blame the sun  newspaper
		
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So is her doing this, or the sun reporting this more damaging to the public interest? Some believe we’re on a war footing, if so should the Sun be allowed to undermine the ‘war effort’ 
as an aside when did we start believing anything that rag prints?


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			as an aside when did we start believing anything that rag prints?
		
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When they (the accused) goes on tv and admits to it, twice.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			When they (the accused) goes on tv and admits to it, twice.
		
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 not sure I would cite it as a primary info source. I’d hate anyone to think I read it


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			So is her doing this, or the sun reporting this more damaging to the public interest? Some believe we’re on a war footing, if so should the Sun be allowed to undermine the ‘war effort’
as an aside when did we start believing anything that rag prints?
		
Click to expand...

She shouldn’t be going against her own advice.
She’s only sorry because she got caught!
I think her admission means that the sun got it right in this instance - I feel so dirty for saying that I’m going to bathe in bleach for a week


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			More qualified than most? I’m sure she has consulted experts
		
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I'd rather hear the advice from the experts themselves


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			not sure I would cite it as a primary info source. I’d hate anyone to think I read it 

Click to expand...

I certainly wouldn't admit to it.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Dando said:



			She shouldn’t be going against her own advice.
She’s only sorry because she got caught!
I think her admission means that the sun got it right in this instance - I feel so dirty for saying that I’m going to bathe in bleach for a week
		
Click to expand...

Who’s to say it was a Sun pap, they may have offered the most money to someone who spotted her and took the pictures to sell?


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'd rather hear the advice from the experts themselves
		
Click to expand...

Haven’t we heard enough from experts??



Wrong thread


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			So is her doing this, or the sun reporting this more damaging to the public interest? Some believe we’re on a war footing, if so should the Sun be allowed to undermine the ‘war effort’
as an aside when did we start believing anything that rag prints?
		
Click to expand...

If she doesn't do it, the Sun can't report the fact that she's done it.  The Sun cannot undermine the "war effort" if people don't ignore the advice, which is what she's done; her own advice as CMO.  

And when she admits twice as many offences as The Sun has reported then I believe it.


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## bobmac (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Haven’t we heard enough from experts??



Wrong thread
		
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Aren't they more qualfied than most?


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Aren't they more qualfied than most?
		
Click to expand...

‘‘Twas a joke


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If she doesn't do it, the Sun can't report the fact that she's done it.  The Sun cannot undermine the "war effort" if people don't ignore the advice, which is what she's done; her own advice as CMO. 

And when she admits twice as many offences as The Sun has reported then I believe it.
		
Click to expand...

If you have restrictions on movement, why not restrictions on reporting...hand in glove. War footing etc


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			If you have restrictions on movement, why not restrictions on reporting...hand in glove. War footing etc
		
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If you have restrictions on reporting how will the people know what is going on here and elsewhere.

Your defence of her hypocrisy is admirable; you're not her husband are you?


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you have restrictions on reporting how will the people know what is going on here and elsewhere.

Your defence of her hypocrisy is admirable; you're not her husband are you? 

Click to expand...

Maybe the next one. I’ve not seen a pic, does she scrub up ok?


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

I'm.not sure anyone is defending her actions as they are indefensible.

What a lot are saying is it's not a stackable offence. Some sadly have an axe to grind/agenda. 

Keep going round in circles gents. I'm switching off notifications to this thread. (If I can?)


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## Dando (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Maybe.... I’ve not seen a pic, does she scrub up ok?
		
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You’re welcome to her! Apparently she even does home visits! 🤣🤣


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'm.not sure anyone is defending her actions as they are indefensible.

What a lot are saying is it's not a stackable offence. Some sadly have an axe to grind/agenda.

Keep going round in circles gents. I'm switching off notifications to this thread. (If I can?)
		
Click to expand...


I'll give you a shout once you've dug your head out the sand


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'm.not sure anyone is defending her actions as they are indefensible.

What a lot are saying is it's not a stackable offence. Some sadly have an axe to grind/agenda.

Keep going round in circles gents. I'm switching off notifications to this thread. (If I can?)
		
Click to expand...

Possibly not defending her actions but certainly deflecting the blame to the paper that reported it rather than the person that ignored the advice.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			If you have restrictions on movement, why not restrictions on reporting...hand in glove. War footing etc
		
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Who’s to say it was actual reporters on the ground, if I’d recognised her and managed to take a photo, I’d be selling it quicker than randy Andy deleting all his contacts on his phone!


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Or. We could look at the story from the point of view that she’s been rightly reprimanded by the Police in the same way as many other people are being reprimanded daily. Should all those other people reprimanded immediately resign from their jobs too? Of course not.

People make mistakes, this modern clamour for resignation over any mistake is a political manipulation overriding common sense.

Besides which, everyone is missing the real story in all of this; that Priti Patel somehow pulled off a global pandemic to avoid getting the sack. One hell of a dead cat. 

Click to expand...

Whilst I agree with your other points, I have to point out that I haven't called for her to be sacked or for her to resign.
That is a Scottish matter and I have no real interest in it.
My point is she's given all and sundry a get out of jail card.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Give it a rest man.…......How do you know  that the CMO is not a Tory supporter.

Click to expand...

Isn't she Scottish and aren't there only three Scots that support the Tories? If so, what are the odds that someone who has achieved her position in public life is also one of the three Tory supporting Scots?


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## Jimaroid (Apr 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Whilst I agree with your other points, I have to point out that I haven't called for her to be sacked or for her to resign.
That is a Scottish matter and I have no real interest in it.
My point is she's given all and sundry a get out of jail card.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed and I didn’t mean to imply you were calling for her sacking, I was making a general point and your post was a convenient segue. 

I do happen to disagree on the get out of jail card though. I view this as the principals of the lockdown being upheld in equity. She made a mistake, was caught, and so others will be.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Possibly not defending her actions but certainly deflecting the blame to the paper that reported it rather than the person that ignored the advice.
		
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It’s not deflecting blame at all,just pointing out where the pictures come from.

I've said it a few times she deserves all the criticism that comes her way, that is of no doubt. The calls for her to lose her job or resign is OTT imo.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			. She made a mistake, was caught, and so others will be.
		
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Your posts have always come across as coming from  an intelligent man, yet trying to compare the CMO who has been live on TV to the nation telling everyone what to do getting caught, twice disobeying the very thing thing she is instructing the nation to do in the same bracket as "others" is almost the ramblings of the insane. It's just not comparable to others doing the same.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Makes you wonder, though, how many other senior people in government and civil service have similarly chosen to ignore their rules?
		
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Oooft let's start a GM paparazzi thread see who can get the best or most compromising photograph!


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			The calls for her to lose her job or resign is OTT imo.
		
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If the head of the Road Policing unit in the UK was caught speeding, twice while being on tv telling everyone not to speed do you think that individual should resign ?


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			biased, aka ‘doesn’t agree with your view’? Not sure if you’ve noticed, there’s not much golf to chat about currently

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I wouldn’t waste your time, it’s usually chaps banging on about ties, sock colours, archaic traditions, HNSP and players asking for advice rather than seeking a professional.


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Indeed and I didn’t mean to imply you were calling for her sacking, I was making a general point and your post was a convenient segue.

I do happen to disagree on the get out of jail card though. I view this as the principals of the lockdown being upheld in equity. She made a mistake, was caught, and so others will be.
		
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Agreed
But there will, most likely, be many more than there would have been.


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Your posts have always come across as coming from  an intelligent man, yet trying to compare the CMO who has been live on TV to the nation telling everyone what to do getting caught, twice disobeying the very thing thing she is instructing the nation to do in the same bracket as "others" is almost the ramblings of the insane. It's just not comparable to others doing the same.
		
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'Caught' is probably not the right expression.

Imo, She made a calculated risk that was really a blunder! The press will do their usual and harangue th woman over 1 small, but serious, error! As far as I woulf beam concerned, this simply serves as another warning of how much thought needs to go into everythinh we do to combat this crisis. It's not a time or the blame mentality to come to the foreground!

In fact, heading to the 2nd home (and there'ds probaby envy involed about having one) to prepare for isolation could wel have been part of the purpose - but not the main focus of the report.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Makes you wonder, though, how many other senior people in government and civil service have similarly chosen to ignore their rules?
		
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Will always be one rule etc etc, bet the queen isn’t on furlough


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Your posts have always come across as coming from  an intelligent man, yet trying to compare the CMO who has been live on TV to the nation telling everyone what to do getting caught, twice disobeying the very thing thing she is instructing the nation to do in the same bracket as "others" is almost the ramblings of the insane. It's just not comparable to others doing the same.
		
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No you are correct, presuming that she’s the best at her job, compromise more lives by impacting on healthcare mechanics than her direct actions will have ever done


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			If the head of the Road Policing unit in the UK was caught speeding, twice while being on tv telling everyone not to speed do you think that individual should resign ?
		
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Are you really trying to prove a point with a hypothetocal scenario? 😀😀

I’ll answer it though... he should be treated excatly the same as the commander in chief bottle washer who works at the local hungry horse would be.👍🏻


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 5, 2020)

Boris has been admitted  to hospital. I wish him all the best.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 5, 2020)

Crikey how many pages of this is devoted to the Scottish CMO .. now Boris has gone in for further tests.


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## Jimaroid (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Your posts have always come across as coming from  an intelligent man, yet trying to compare the CMO who has been live on TV to the nation telling everyone what to do getting caught, twice disobeying the very thing thing she is instructing the nation to do in the same bracket as "others" is almost the ramblings of the insane. It's just not comparable to others doing the same.
		
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And yet here we are. Two seemingly intelligent people with opposing views about the behaviour of a doctor in the midst of a global crisis in which modern society has been showed to be ill prepared and under great strain. Do you not think, that in exceptional times under great stress and distress, people make stupid mistakes? Is public shaming not punishment enough?

Unlike the braying masses I simply don’t agree that this is a resignation offence. 

What’s that saying? Doctors are renowned for it. Goes something like. Do as I say, not as I do? 

You know what, I’ve changed my mind. Every doctor should resign immediately. Every smoking, alcoholic last one of them. Obviously can’t do their jobs. Sack them all.

Is that better?


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Oooft let's start a GM paparazzi thread see who can get the best or most compromising photograph!
		
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You've met @Fish then


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## hovis (Apr 5, 2020)

with Boris going to hospital, the knob eds going out over the weekend and the good weather predicted next week I predict a propa lock down tomorrow evening!!!


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			And yet here we are. Two seemingly intelligent people with opposing views about the behaviour of a doctor in the midst of a global crisis in which modern society has been showed to be ill prepared and under great strain. Do you not think, that in exceptional times under great stress and distress, people make stupid mistakes? Is public shaming not punishment enough?

Unlike the braying masses I simply don’t agree that this is a resignation offence.

What’s that saying? Doctors are renowned for it. Goes something like. Do as I say, not as I do?

You know what, I’ve changed my mind. Every doctor should resign immediately. Every smoking, alcoholic last one of them. Obviously can’t do their jobs. Sack them all.

Is that better?
		
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OK, lets agree to disagree.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Are you really trying to prove a point with a hypothetocal scenario? 😀😀
		
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Yes. 

I shall debate no further in regards the CMO of Scotland, it's getting us no where, lets just accept we have differing views.


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## Fish (Apr 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			with Boris going to hospital, the knob eds going out over the weekend and the good weather predicted next week I predict a propa lock down tomorrow evening!!!
		
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Thursday midnight - Monday midnight, shutdown over Easter weekend.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Thursday midnight - Monday midnight, shutdown over Easter weekend.
		
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Have I still got time to get my Easter egg


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Thursday midnight - Monday midnight, shutdown over Easter weekend.
		
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What does shutdown look like? Genuinely don’t know


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## williamalex1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Nicola will be very open and honest. Dr Calderwood will still in her role. She has been invaluable blah blah blah....


However she will no longer front the campaign.

Nicola is not daft she is a very astute and clever woman.
		
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And she could talk the hind legs of a Boris.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 5, 2020)

I'm just amazed that intelligent people can be calling the CMO's actions a 'mistake'. Making a conscious decision to pack the fam in the car off to the weekend retreat, not one bit twice, is not a mistake. Even for you and I that can hardly be called a mistake. For someone fronting the Government advice every day, seeing hee own face on TV several times a day, saying the same thing over and over. To then consciously make the decision to jump in the motor for a trip of that length is no mistake. 

We can all agree to disagree on what should happen about it, but come on guys, lets call this duck a duck, she ignored the self same rules she is in place to advise for enforcement. She didn't forget and she didn't have ignorance on her side. She chose, consciously, for what ever shite reason she gave, to ignore the rules. 

I am sure thay if I forgot about insider trading rules at work and did a bit of back door investments, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on when the axe came down.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Yes. 

I shall debate no further in regards the CMO of Scotland, it's getting us no where, lets just accept we have differing views.
		
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I accepted that a couple of hours ago🤭🤭👍


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 5, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			What does shutdown look like? Genuinely don’t know
		
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Banning going out for exercise? Having said that from the number of people on bikes that have suddenly appeared down our lane making my dog walk an exercise in constantly having to shift into the hedgerow to avoid them I say bring it on 😉


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## Jacko_G (Apr 5, 2020)

She has just resigned


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## Mudball (Apr 5, 2020)

Wishing BoJo a speedy recovery... can’t seen any of the other wet blankets leading this country... Boris, your country needs you..


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2020)

Could this be a game changer if it's jumping species?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...avirus-new-york-bronx-zoo-lions-a9448576.html


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## DanFST (Apr 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Could this be a game changer if it's jumping species?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...avirus-new-york-bronx-zoo-lions-a9448576.html

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you know it’s bad when a cat can get tested and we can’t! I would guess that’s it’s already out there, and easily transmittable between humans, in which contact is far more likely. 

It would be a huge deal if that wasn’t the case tho. 

Thoughts with the PM, wish him the best.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			She has just resigned
		
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Can't be true, , someone is lying, I read it here she should keep her job.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Could this be a game changer if it's jumping species?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...avirus-new-york-bronx-zoo-lions-a9448576.html

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Been reports of a few Cats and Dogs testing positive around the world for a few weeks now.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Been reports of a few Cats and Dogs testing positive around the world for a few weeks now.
		
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Any idea how it had affected them and what the outcome was? This was the first one I've seen.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Can't be true, , someone is lying, I read it here she should keep her job.
		
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Should & would unfortunately not the same


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Any idea how it had affected them and what the outcome was? This was the first one I've seen.
		
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A cat in Belgium, Dog in Japan and a couple of Dogs in China, all owners had been tested positive for it as well.

Apparently cats are very prone to carrying the coronavirus, but the 4 above according to reports were all positive for Covid-19.


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## bladeplayer (Apr 5, 2020)

Thers another thread running about saying and phrases . I mentioned trying to control something u have no control over .. 
Its ok to think CMO should b sacked . Its ok to think she shouldnt .. why o why are some tearing strips off each other about it .what will happen will happen in time .. ya need to stop arguing if some1 elses opinion is different from urs .. hopefuly we all get out golfing soon.but most important is as many of us as possible and our nearest and dearest stay alive and well thru this.. 

So have a thought before ya type or reply every1 else is as entitled to an opinion as u are ..  stay safe


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



*Could this be a game changer i*f it's jumping species?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...avirus-new-york-bronx-zoo-lions-a9448576.html

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Well the existing game is tens of thousands of deaths at the very best in this country, the globe mostly on lock down, the collapse of our economy and I'm going to bed not 100% sure our PM will be alive when I wake up. So I hope the new game will be slightly more fun to play...


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			A cat in Belgium, Dog in Japan and a couple of Dogs in China, all owners had been tested positive for it as well.

Apparently cats are very prone to carrying the coronavirus, but the 4 above according to reports were all positive for Covid-19.
		
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Apologies for not being clear in my question, I meant did you know if the animals died of it or recovered from it? Was it allowed to run its course or were they put to sleep prior to any outcome?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well the existing game was tens of thousands of deaths at the very best in this country, the globe mostly on lock down, the collapse of our economy and I'm going to bed not 100% sure our PM will be alive when I wake up. So I hope the new game will be slightly more fun to play...
		
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My concern is that if it can jump species will we ever be free from it? The human outbreak could be under control, while it is undetected in the animal kingdom, and then a new outbreak occurs due to animal to human transmission.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Apologies for not being clear in my question, I meant did you know if the animals died of it or recovered from it? Was it allowed to run its course or were they put to sleep prior to any outcome?
		
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Not sure mate about all of them, I read the dogs in China were released from quarantine then one of them died 2 days later and the owner refused an autopsy.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			My concern is that if it can jump species will we ever be free from it? The human outbreak could be under control, while it is undetected in the animal kingdom, and then a new outbreak occurs due to animal to human transmission.
		
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You haven't been listening, we won't be free from it, same way we aren't free from the other corona viruses.


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## User20204 (Apr 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			N the owner refused an autopsy.
		
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And you believe that ?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 5, 2020)

Are pangolins close to the cat family ?
apparently yes ... but cannot find out if it kills them or not.


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## hovis (Apr 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			the owner refused an autopsy.
		
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because he was already in the oven


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You haven't been listening, we won't be free from it, same way we aren't free from the other corona viruses.
		
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I meant "free from it" in terms of having a vaccine or the population having herd immunity rather than it no longer existing. Is there a risk that if it can jump species then it is also more likely to mutate, rendering a vaccine or immunity pointless?


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## backwoodsman (Apr 5, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I'm just amazed that intelligent people can be calling the CMO's actions a 'mistake'. Making a conscious decision to pack the fam in the car off to the weekend retreat, not one bit twice, is not a mistake. Even for you and I that can hardly be called a mistake. For someone fronting the Government advice every day, seeing hee own face on TV several times a day, saying the same thing over and over. To then consciously make the decision to jump in the motor for a trip of that length is no mistake.

We can all agree to disagree on what should happen about it, but come on guys, lets call this duck a duck, she ignored the self same rules she is in place to advise for enforcement. She didn't forget and she didn't have ignorance on her side. She chose, consciously, for what ever shite reason she gave, to ignore the rules.

I am sure thay if I forgot about insider trading rules at work and did a bit of back door investments, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on when the axe came down.
		
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This ^^^^^

I just can't buy that it was a  "mistake"  or an "error of judgement". To my mind there's only two possible explanations  - either crass stupidity or crass arrogance. And  to get to the position  of CMO isn't usually achieved by someone stupid. But for someone at the forefront of a massive public campaign, to blatantly undermine that campaign had to put her in an invidious position. What should have happened is now immaterial. She's resigned. But it won't undo the damage.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			because he was already in the oven
		
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From Bat to Cat and ratatattat


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## Hobbit (Apr 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I meant "free from it" in terms of having a vaccine or the population having herd immunity rather than it no longer existing. Is there a risk that if it can jump species then it is also more likely to mutate, rendering a vaccine or immunity pointless?
		
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Have a read up of antigenic shift and antigenic drift. Whether it applies to how the virus got from bats to humans, and from humans to lions/dogs/cats you'd have to look elsewhere but it does explain mutating viruses.


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## User62651 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			She has just resigned
		
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backwoodsman said:



			This ^^^^^

I just can't buy that it was a  "mistake"  or an "error of judgement". To my mind there's only two possible explanations  - either crass stupidity or crass arrogance. And  to get to the position  of CMO isn't usually achieved by someone stupid. But for someone at the forefront of a massive public campaign, to blatantly undermine that campaign had to put her in an invidious position. What should have happened is now immaterial. She's resigned. But it won't undo the damage.
		
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There is no damage, storm in a teacup, it'll be yesterday's news tomorrow, PM is in hospital is the new big story, after that there'll be another. Hancock when asked about it just passed on it as a Scotgov concern. Some people were flaunting rules, most were adhering, it'll continue that way no matter what political leaders and their CMOs say or do. Nobody was hanging on her (CMO's) every word in a media absolutely saturated with cv19 news and stories 24/7. The same message to stay in is everywhere. I think most of us up here are following this crisis mainly at UK level, I am anyway.


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## drdel (Apr 5, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Yes.

I shall debate no further in regards the CMO of Scotland, it's getting us no where, lets just accept we have differing views.
		
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She has resigned!!!


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## mjacobsavvy (Apr 6, 2020)

Affected us big time. All our production just stop. We've been isolated for 4 weeks now.


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## Fish (Apr 6, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			She has just resigned
		
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It’s the right decision, but it shouldn’t have taken the amount of public outcry to force the decision, it should have been a quicker and immediate act, so that what was being demanded by officials to the public was seen to be serious and not to be taken lightly.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 6, 2020)

Fish said:



			It’s the right decision, but it shouldn’t have taken the amount of public outcry to force the decision, it should have been a quicker and immediate act, so that what was being demanded by officials to the public was seen to be serious and not to be taken lightly.
		
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I would be interested to know if  you think that the Prince of Wales and Scottish Secretary should also resign from public duty for doing something 100 times more stupid and dangerous than Calderwood.

IE.... travel the length of the UK whilst knowingly carrying the virus from London to Highlands and Dumfries. I wonder how many folk did they infect on route.?

Good summary from Peter Bell https://peterabell.scot/2020/04/06/because-we-can/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 6, 2020)

jobr1850 said:



			Did we not establish earlier in the Fred that Charlie boy was tested once up there and not before he left.
		
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Aye right, strange that he travelled 600 miles to get tested.

Good 'Toon from Chris Cairns.https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/img439.jpg


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			And you believe that ?
		
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 Are you saying everything we read on the internet isn’t true?


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## Ethan (Apr 6, 2020)

JustOne said:



			Of your two answers...

You test your front line nurse, he/she does *not* have it... and then he/she goes to work and comes home with a sore throat...???

or gets it and potentially spreads it around a bit.

I understand the antigen testing in terms of developing a better/quicker/cheaper/possibly more efficient test but surely you'd need to test the entire country? and isn't it too early to be worrying about that right now?
		
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It is always the case that people who test negative can later get the disease. But you will get some back to work rather than sitting at home wasting resource. 

The antibody testing will need to be very widespread. The issue is the timing. If you have people reasonably believed to have had Covid, but unconfirmed, test them. If epidemiologists believe that there are large numbers of people in the population likely to have been infected, do some large scale sampling in specific areas to test the hypothesis. Eventually, though, almost everybody will need to be tested.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 6, 2020)




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## 3offTheTee (Apr 6, 2020)

How much salary was the salary of The CMO for Scotland please?


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## DRW (Apr 6, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Any idea how it had affected them and what the outcome was? This was the first one I've seen.
		
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There have been some reports in China of cats dying, that had been written about in the 'early' days of the virus.

I read that the virus latches onto a certain receptor(?) on human cells and there were a number of other species that have a similar or same receptor on their cells, one of which is the cat species.

The actual way virus go about their business, is quite interesting, if you are bored enough one day like I was, missing golf !


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 6, 2020)




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## hovis (Apr 6, 2020)

a tiger in new York has coronavirus 😳.  I wanna meet the man that was brave enough to get within 2 meters of it!


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## Ethan (Apr 6, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just because you've had it and have built up an immunity it doesn't mean you can't still pass it on to others.
Me and the Mrs are 95% certain we've had it but we're still following all the rules.
And although there's some evidence that you can't get reinfected they don't know for certain.
		
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Our current understanding of the disease is that transmissibility is only an issue in the first week or so. By the time you are antibody positive, that is at least 3 weeks after infection, so you are unlikely to be infectious. However we can't be sure how reliable your 95% certainty of infection is. Around 4/5 tests performed are negative.


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## Fish (Apr 6, 2020)

New advice on social distancing, following news that tigers in a US Zoo have tested positive for Covid-19 you are advised to stay at least two metres away from any tiger that has a cough or fever.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2020)

...going back to the subject of the thread...after a short while living in it - how has this affected me?

TBH - not a great deal.  I work from home so my working week has not changed one iota.  I have a nice house with plenty of space for Mrs Hogie and myself to keep out of each other's way when we get irritated or frustrated with each other (yes - I know you can't imagine her ever getting irritated with me - but yes - it happens  ).

We have a lovely garden to relax in, and a patio and swanky studio at the bottom of it where I work and can relax if I want 'out of the house' - or we both can.  We have a huge (near 400acres), and largely wild, park at the top of our road 3mins walk from our front door, a park through which we can walk in almost total solitude into open and empty countryside.  And I can meet up with my normal groups of friends on-line.  No back-slapping or handshaking - but hey - we can go with that.

However - I can't play golf and I can't go to my church (the former I must thole, the latter is just a building).  And of my normal stuff that's pretty much it.

We do not live in a small, cramped inner city tenement or apartment block flat with multiple other friends or family - with no private garden to go in to - my garden being the local park that my Victorian council or other benefactor established to enable city dwellers to get fresh air, and to provide folks with someone to exercise and relax.

We am very fortunate.  I must make allowances and have consideration and understanding for those that are not so fortunate as we are.   Close the parks, stop us from going out full stop?  Would be easy for me to demand such measures.  I am not at the sharp end of them.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 6, 2020)

Almost every single chinese takeaway near me has shut down , is this widespread across the country ?

Chatter sites are speculating that the majority of their food is sourced from china, not sure how true this is.
if it is true can see their trade going down when they reope n.


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## Robster59 (Apr 6, 2020)

I was Skyping with my children last night.  My daughter has a semi detached with garden and was Skyping from there.  My son lives in a one bed flat and so can't get out.  I really felt for him.  He is in the process of selling his flat and moving into a semi with garden but the whole process has come to a halt.  They have a shared garden which I would have thought they could utilise but I'm not sure of the rules on that. If anyone can find any guidelines on that, it would be greatly appreciated.
We're not going anywhere as my missus is paranoid about the virus and we are going through more spray and cleaning cloths than anything else. 
Father-in-Law is definitely deteriorating as he can't get out to interact with others so he even forgot the code for his alarm last night.  A code he's used for everything for years.
Still, we both have our jobs and they are both still busy so we're better off than a lot of people.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 6, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Almost every single chinese takeaway near me has shut down , is this widespread across the country ?

Chatter sites are speculating that the majority of their food is sourced from china, not sure how true this is.
if it is true can see their trade going down when they reope n.
		
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Of the two we use, one has closed indefinitely, the other appears to still be open; well, it hasn't got a notice up saying it is closed.  Don't know about the third one in the High street.

I could understand them closing as I have heard of people refusing to eat Chinese in case they get Corona Virus.

However the 1st prize for muppetry has to be those setting fire to 5G masts to stop the Chinese spreading Corona Virus via the 5G network.    The really scary thing is that they are quite possibly capable of breeding.


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## Ross61 (Apr 6, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Almost every single chinese takeaway near me has shut down , is this widespread across the country ?

Chatter sites are speculating that the majority of their food is sourced from china, not sure how true this is.
if it is true can see their trade going down when they reope n.[/QU
		
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There was a story a month or so ago on the BBC about a restaurant in Stevenage that was losing a lot of trade because of the virus in China. The story was that like most restaurants here the food is sourced in the UK. Also this restaurant at least had been open for years and none of the owners had been to China in 10years. So I would say he same problem would be everywhere because people will just assume wrongly that the food comes from China.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2020)

We have taken to using Google duo for family video calls 5 times a week for the little lady 

Means my mother can annoy me in my own home lol 

We videoed called my cousin's and aunts yest they did it properly. Held the phone so we could see them all perfect cheers 

My mother (the computer tech teacher.) Insists her and dad use their own phones so we see both of them ... Rather than sit next to each other ....... But then MUTE YOUR MIC MOTHER!! Constant echo and feed back .. how do I do that 

But the plus side my wife's 86 year old grand father just before lock down my mother in law installed in their chrome book (that we got them 3 years ago litterally just for online shopping for their food as they were struggling to shop so I'd do that every other weekend when we visited for them) so now once a week we phone him and tell him open the computer .. he's learned how to answer so little lady can see GG


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## Orikoru (Apr 6, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			There was a story a month or so ago on the BBC about a restaurant in Stevenage that was losing a lot of trade because of the virus in China. The story was that like most restaurants here the food is sourced in the UK. Also this restaurant at least had been open for years and none of the owners had been to China in 10years. So I would say he same problem would be everywhere because people will just assume wrongly that the food comes from China.
		
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I think the 'Chinese' and 'Indian' etc dishes we get here are Anglicised versions anyway - probably nothing like the food you would actually get in those countries. If you think about it, why on earth would they import ingredients from China when the ingredients are pretty much chicken, rice and sauce, there's no need.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 6, 2020)

Definitely found coping, at the weekend, a whole lot more testing than Mon-Fri... Deliberately didn't go out as I was concerned, even when in the woods, distancing might prove an issue... Whilst speaking/seeing my grandsons, on devices, helps... It really ain't the same as proper contact... Can see Easter weekend being even tougher... Big help, though, has been Alexa providing me with sounds on demand...

Retirement hasn't exactly panned out as hoped... First six months was spot on (probably over indulged mind)... Then down to an act of carelessness, on my part, lost the next 18months recovering from a busted leg... Looks like, even with my optimistic head on, next six months can be written off due to covid...


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## Ross61 (Apr 6, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			However the 1st prize for muppetry has to be those setting fire to 5G masts to stop the Chinese spreading Corona Virus via the 5G network.    The really scary thing is that they are quite possibly capable of breeding. 

Click to expand...

I found that unbelievable that people were taking this seriously. Although at this minute I am taking tea break from my work that happens to be for the expansion of the 5G network, perhaps I should be wearing full PPE whilst I do it, just in case.


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## Slime (Apr 6, 2020)

hovis said:



			a tiger in new York has coronavirus 😳.  I wanna meet the man that was brave enough to get within 2 meters of it!
		
Click to expand...

Apparently he's now inside the tiger!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 6, 2020)

The Chinese takeaway we use has closed for the time being. It is a portakabin in a car park, it is there permanently, and there are 4-5 people working in the tightest possible space (I did not believe the numbers until I actually saw them all with my own eyes one time). Absolutely no chance of 2 people being in there and being 2m apart so certainly no chance of 5 people doing that. It is a popular takeaway, long established, so I would hope that there is nothing more to it than that.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 6, 2020)

Definitely the case where Chinese food and Indian food is anglicised over here having eaten in both countries.
The Indian food wasn’t as spicy and was more vegetarian- and delicious with more flavour than heat.
China was a challenge, very little description, pictures yes. The biggest joke we had was the ordering of a rack of ribs, suffice to say a rack appeared a  pig has x amount of ribs and a dog has a different amount .. the guys enjoyed them but we were barking at each other all weekend. 
I don’t think the UK would allow such things to occur where as in China it is normal.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 6, 2020)

I can cook Indian and Thai food quite well, but never been able to do a decent chinese. Its the one takeaway I miss TBH.
The local turkish restaurant whch was selling takeaways has ceased trading this weekend, which is another of the off the list.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 6, 2020)

jobr1850 said:



			Did we not establish earlier in the Fred that Charlie boy was tested once up there and not before he left.
		
Click to expand...

It's irrelevant if he had Covid 19 or not prior to coming North the fact is he still travelled to a second residence against all Government advice.

Like the good Dr it's more an error of judgement. 

Plus tbh there are more pressing issues then who travelled where and when etc etc.


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## User20204 (Apr 6, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Like the good Dr it's more an error of judgement.

.
		
Click to expand...

You're mixed up fella, an error of judgement is turning left instead of right, packing up your family and travelling "x" amount of miles is a blatant disregard of gvt instructions.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You're mixed up fella, an error of judgement is turning left instead of right, packing up your family and travelling "x" amount of miles is a blatant disregard of gvt instructions.
		
Click to expand...

Not mixed up at all just a bit more realistic and sensible re what to got mock affronted about.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2020)

Spain
2 April 961 deaths
3 Apr  850
4 Apr  749
5 Apr  694
Today 414  528 (Edit)

Looks like lockdown may be working


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## USER1999 (Apr 6, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Spain
2 April 961 deaths
3 Apr  850
4 Apr  749
5 Apr  694
Today 414

Looks like lockdown may be working
		
Click to expand...

Or, all the vulnerable are dead?


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## User20204 (Apr 6, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Spain

Today 414
		
Click to expand...

Now 528. 

It's the drop in daily cases that is what matters, not the drop in deaths in regards getting over things.


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## Old Skier (Apr 6, 2020)

Public Service Announcement


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You're mixed up fella, an error of judgement is turning left instead of right, packing up your family and travelling "x" amount of miles is a blatant disregard of gvt instructions.
		
Click to expand...

An error of judgement is thinking you can do something with impunity and then finding out that you can't.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Now 528.

It's the drop in daily cases that is what matters, not the drop in deaths in regards getting over things.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it changed so I edited my post.
Daily cases
2nd Apr  8195
3rd         7134
4th         6969
5th         5478
Today     3386


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Yes it changed so I edited my post.
Daily cases
2nd Apr  8195
3rd         7134
4th         6969
5th         5478
Today     3386
		
Click to expand...

Worldometer update their numbers hourly.

https://www.worldometers.info/coron...d0q6B_vO6ANXWZFDQgo9d50-Yc6O9LJex6k#countries


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## User20204 (Apr 6, 2020)

It is probably far to early to be optimistic but in terms of global deaths it does appear that initial estimates may have been wildly over exaggerated, hopefully.


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It is probably far to early to be optimistic but in terms of global deaths it does appear that initial estimates may have been wildly over exaggerated, hopefully.
		
Click to expand...

I'm in the wait and see camp. Before lockdown and the first couple of weeks it was running like a wild fire. Numbers look like they're dropping but how much is that down the harsh lockdown we've had here?


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## Papas1982 (Apr 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm in the wait and see camp. Before lockdown and the first couple of weeks it was running like a wild fire. Numbers look like they're dropping but how much is that down the harsh lockdown we've had here?
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully, now people have seen how quickly it escalates if no care is taken Some sort of normality can resume. If after a few weeks of relaxed restrictions it spikes again then I fear real trouble as I’m not sure the public will take to well to being told to stay indoors until a vaccine arises. 

There have already been comments online about how it isn’t fair to ‘restrict youngsters just so the old can exist”, soon an economical factor will come into effect too. Multiple businesses will start to fail in mass numbers and then we will have no society to come back to


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## User20204 (Apr 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm in the wait and see camp.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed as am I, but if you recall they were talking in terms of 250,000 deaths in the UK alone, at the current rate of daily deaths there would need to be a huge spike in daily deaths to get any where near that figure.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 6, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Hopefully, now people have seen how quickly it escalates if no care is taken Some sort of normality can resume. If after a few weeks of relaxed restrictions it spikes again then I fear real trouble as I’m not sure the public will take to well to being told to stay indoors until a vaccine arises.

There have already been comments online about how it isn’t fair to ‘restrict youngsters just so the old can exist”, soon an economical factor will come into effect too. Multiple businesses will start to fail in mass numbers and then we will have no society to come back to
		
Click to expand...

Just another sad example if how selfish and obnoxious the British public are when you get attitudes like you say.

While I feel for my two I know it's in their best interests and I'm doing it as I love them. They in return understand what is going on and why the lockdown is in place.


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Are you getting notifications every time someone replies? 😁
		
Click to expand...

Does over 4k post give you the answer?


----------



## Ross61 (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Indeed as am I, but if you recall they were talking in terms of 250,000 deaths in the UK alone, at the current rate of daily deaths there would need to be a huge spike in daily deaths to get any where near that figure.
		
Click to expand...

The 250,000 figure was if we did nothing. They have always said that with social distancing and the lockdown measures, anything under 20,000 would be  good.


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 6, 2020)

Well one interesting impact is that I now no longer have weird stuff at the back of the cupboard.

It’s has either been donated or incorporated in some sort of recipe. Usually a chef’s special sort of dish.

I do have a few more soups than usual, in case I am held up in bed at any point.

All our supplies are now catalogued and kanbanned so we don’t run out...


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## User20204 (Apr 6, 2020)

I do wonder what the death toll will be due to the aftermath of the economy and subsequent financial hardship there will be in the coming years.


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## Old Skier (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I do wonder what the death toll will be due to the aftermath of the economy and subsequent financial hardship there will be in the coming years.
		
Click to expand...

You really are a happy chappie.


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## User20204 (Apr 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You really are a happy chappie.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think we're going to come out of all this smelling of roses ?


----------



## MegaSteve (Apr 6, 2020)

Setting aside all the bad press regarding distancing... It's great to see/hear of so many community groups coming forward to help where necessary... So many 'gaps' being filled by volunteers 👍...


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I do wonder what the death toll will be due to the aftermath of the economy and subsequent financial hardship there will be in the coming years.
		
Click to expand...

From the data profile my estimate is we are about at a third of the total deaths and timescale.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2020)

Raab tells us that he hasn't spoken with Johnson since late on Saturday.  If he hasn't then why not if the PM is actually OK.  Maybe Hancock has been doing all the chat - but Raab is 'deputy' PM.  Worryingly that suggests that Johnson may not be that well at all.  I genuinely hope he is OK.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Raab hasn't spoken with Johnson since late on Saturday.  If he hasn't then why not if the PM is actually OK.  Worryingly that suggests that Johnson may not be that well at all.
		
Click to expand...

He is in hospital, so no he is not well..!


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## Old Skier (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Do you think we're going to come out of all this smelling of roses ?
		
Click to expand...

No but I'm a glass half full person


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## Old Skier (Apr 6, 2020)

Morgan reports he's (BJ) been moved to ICU. His tweeter feed isn't always the best source.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 6, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			He is in hospital, so no he is not well..!
		
Click to expand...

He's actually in intensive care now.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 6, 2020)

Hoping he pulls through, bloody terrible time for his fiancee and family. 
He's also going to be out of the game for a long while, so Raab in charge.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2020)

UK
4 APR  708 deaths
5 APR  621
6 APR  439

New cases yesterday 5,903
New cases today.......3,802

I guess good news isn't news


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## AmandaJR (Apr 6, 2020)

Oh crikey Boris - we need you - get well soon


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## IainP (Apr 6, 2020)

bobmac said:



			UK
4 APR  708 deaths
5 APR  621
6 APR  439

New cases yesterday 5,903
New cases today.......3,802

I guess good news isn't news
		
Click to expand...

Fingers crossed Bob.
I wouldn't mind seeing a more regional trend though. Fear would be that London area is now slowing but might be some new peaks still to come in other areas that were running behind.
Time will show.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 6, 2020)

I’m to take a 10% deferred pay drop. The company I work for is fine, Secure for at least 10 years, no cash flow issues. Not affected by current climate.
The 10% pay cut is to bail out another part of the group due to their bad business model if engines aren’t flying.  Unions to back it.
Stupendous. I tend to prefer choosing the charities I give to.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 6, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’m to take a 10% deferred pay drop. The company I work for is fine, Secure for at least 10 years, no cash flow issues. Not affected by current climate.
The 10% pay cut is to bail out another part of the group due to their bad business model if engines aren’t flying.  Unions to back it.
Stupendous. I tend to prefer choosing the charities I give to.
		
Click to expand...

You sure Rolls Royce are not affected in the current climate?


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2020)

Traminator said:



			When you say timescale, does that equate to a peak around early June as originally predicted?
		
Click to expand...

Peak in 10 days or so. Infections dwindling over the next following 2 or 3 weeks. Just my opinion from the data profiles I've seen.

I'd add my wishes of a recovery for the PM.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2020)

Good news is Sky are saying he's not on a ventilator which is positive. Hopefully higher oxygen intake only and he can get pushed back to a respiratory ward later tonight or tomorrow and continue his recovery


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			You sure Rolls Royce are not affected in the current climate?
		
Click to expand...

I work for a different part of the group of which I can’t be transparent about. But we’d be bought by our customer if the group failed. 
We haven’t always been under the Royce’s umbrella.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 6, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I work for a different part of the group of which I can’t be transparent about. But we’d be bought by our customer if the group failed.
We haven’t always been under the Royce’s umbrella.
		
Click to expand...

I'll pass on your kind words to the charity cases with their bad business models.


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## User20204 (Apr 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			From the data profile my estimate is we are about at a third of the total deaths and timescale.
		
Click to expand...




drdel said:



			Peak in 10 days or so. Infections dwindling over the next 2 or 3 weeks. Just my opinion from the data profiles I've seen.

.
		
Click to expand...

Are you an analyst of data or a scientist of sorts or just guessing like the rest of us ?


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## drdel (Apr 6, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Are you an analyst of data or a scientist of sorts or just guessing like the rest of us ?
		
Click to expand...

 I used to build Quantitative simulation models, mostly econometric.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			I used to build Quantitative simulation models, mostly econometric.
		
Click to expand...

Airfix made them I think?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 6, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Just another sad example if how selfish and obnoxious the British public are when you get attitudes like you say.

While I feel for my two I know it's in their best interests and I'm doing it as I love them. They in return understand what is going on and why the lockdown is in place.
		
Click to expand...

You have taught them why this is nessesary!
Unfortunately in a lot of families it’s the parents that’s the problem.!


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## Jacko_G (Apr 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You have taught them why this is nessesary!
Unfortunately in a lot of families it’s the parents that’s the problem.!
		
Click to expand...

Of course I have as I believe they're both of an age to understand what is happening and both are aware of the virus. 

I (we) believe it's right to be transparent as they see what is happening online.


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## patricks148 (Apr 7, 2020)

Police patroling parks and play area's in Sneck. was coming past Whinn park with the dog and 3 got ot of a car and went in. there was a group of teenagers sitting on a bench, but they were still there on the way back. Also a police van went past the Islands car park, stopped and looked at the half dozen cars sat there and one more turned up parked got out and walked a dog. 

TBH i'm wondering why they are bothering if they are not going to do anything about people ignoring the lock down and not driving around.


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## Orikoru (Apr 7, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Police patroling parks and play area's in Sneck. was coming past Whinn park with the dog and 3 got ot of a car and went in. there was a group of teenagers sitting on a bench, but they were still there on the way back. Also a police van went past the Islands car park, stopped and looked at the half dozen cars sat there and one more turned up parked got out and walked a dog.

TBH i'm wondering why they are bothering if they are not going to do anything about people ignoring the lock down and not driving around.
		
Click to expand...

My policeman mate told me that they've been given the power to issue fines, but they can't do on the spot ones because they don't have the tickets to hand yet so it takes 4 weeks to put it through. Or something like that anyway. Perhaps they're only going to do it in extreme circumstances if it's a hassle.


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## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

I had a look at data for hours last night as I couldn't sleep. It's really, really, really depressing reading. 

Jist of it is: 
If/when LEDC's start reporting,  death toll will be in 10's of millions. There's a mix of it not hitting those areas yet as there's minimal links to China and/or the reporting isn't valid as their healthcare systems are absolutely awful.
Switzerland is probably the best country in the west to deal with this, they look to have peaked just in time. However if something happens and active cases increase again, they cannot cope. If they can't cope, we don't stand a chance. 
You need to take China's "data" out of most analysis, it really is an absolute joke.

I thought I would see some hope doing some analysis. but doing so you realise how FUBAR it is for the world, no one has enough tests, no one has enough ventilators or beds. you can't use case data as it's not accurate at all. The government needs to release some data, then people will see how terrifying this is. Although some won't be able to handle the truth. Johnson was right, a huge amount of people will die, and we can't help them. 

In reality, unless there is a FULL household lockdown with no transmissions for a full duration of the transmission period of the disease, with a lock down of all borders until a vaccine. There is absolutely no way to stop it currently. And that wouldn't work even here, as some selfish asshole would ruin it. We don't even know how the disease works well enough to be confident enough to do the lockdown. 

I'm not going to use herd immunity as a term, but the only way we can get back to normal is that everyone gets it. And we hope you can't be reinfected. A disease passport system would bring back some normality to life, but we need antibody tests that aren't accurate enough and available yet. I'm not sure what percentage of the population would have to have it in order to not overwhelm the NHS, but it's not 50% probably closer to 80-90%. The amount of intensive care is too much, both in levels of staff and time in the ICU.


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## User20204 (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			In reality, unless there is a FULL household lockdown with no transmissions for a full duration of the transmission period of the disease, with a lock down of all borders until a vaccine. There is absolutely no way to stop it currently. And that wouldn't work even here, as some selfish asshole would ruin it. We don't even know how the disease works well enough to be confident enough to do the lockdown.

.
		
Click to expand...

Lock down doesn't stop the virus.
We are locked down to slow the spread.
The longer the lock down, the longer the threat takes to subside.
We have already been told by numerous experts that it is likely 60% - 80% of the population will contract it.
Iceland have done plenty testing per ca-pita and results show 50% of positive tests are asymptomatic.

*YOU REALLY NEED TO CALM DOWN*.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2020)

Annual leave cancelled and working Friday and Monday.


----------



## IanM (Apr 7, 2020)

Had my first emotional wobble about this last night.  Mother of a chap in our Dept died of it on Sunday, wife's cousin currently has it and then we see the MP taken into ICU.

Struggled to get to sleep, so played St Enodoc in my head on a warm summer evening... last remember putting on the 8th and fell asleep about that time...


----------



## Imurg (Apr 7, 2020)

IanM said:



			Had my first emotional wobble about this last night.  Mother of a chap in our Dept died of it on Sunday, wife's cousin currently has it and then we see the MP taken into ICU.

Struggled to get to sleep, so played St Enodoc in my head on a warm summer evening... last remember putting on the 8th and fell asleep about that time...
		
Click to expand...

Dq for leaving the course early...
Stay strong.
It's ok to not be ok.
I've had a few wobbles. They pass.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Peak in 10 days or so. Infections dwindling over the next following 2 or 3 weeks. Just my opinion from the data profiles I've seen.

I'd add my wishes of a recovery for the PM.
		
Click to expand...

But how extended will the peak be - or will it actually be more like a plateau with maybe a gentle drop off for some time before a more significant fall?


----------



## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But how extended will the peak be - or will it actually be more like a plateau with maybe a gentle drop off for some time before a more significant fall?
		
Click to expand...

The truth is nobody knows.
We can only manage it as best we can.


----------



## AmandaJR (Apr 7, 2020)

IanM said:



			Had my first emotional wobble about this last night.  Mother of a chap in our Dept died of it on Sunday, wife's cousin currently has it and then we see the MP taken into ICU.

Struggled to get to sleep, so played St Enodoc in my head on a warm summer evening... last remember putting on the 8th and fell asleep about that time...
		
Click to expand...

I had my first wobble too hearing about Boris in ICU. As soon as I woke I put the TV on with some trepidation and for once was happy to see the dippy sports presenter talking her usual twaddle.


----------



## drdel (Apr 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But how extended will the peak be - or will it actually be more like a plateau with maybe a gentle drop off for some time before a more significant fall?
		
Click to expand...

Quite so. Flattening the curve will extend the tail. I was thinking the skew might help.


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I had my first wobble too hearing about Boris in ICU. As soon as I woke I put the TV on with some trepidation and for once was happy to see the dippy sports presenter talking her usual twaddle.
		
Click to expand...

Just imagine the virus as a steamroller. It doesn't travel very well without a driver, and it travels so slowly you can sidestep it providing you do the right things. Simplify it to that level and its not that frightening. Be calm, be patient and you'll be sipping prosecco in the garden with friends in the summer.


----------



## Jacko_G (Apr 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just imagine the virus as a steamroller. It doesn't travel very well without a driver, and it travels so slowly you can sidestep it providing you do the right things. Simplify it to that level and its not that frightening. Be calm, be patient and you'll be sipping prosecco in the garden with friends in the summer.
		
Click to expand...


I'll stick to a cuppa though.


----------



## pokerjoke (Apr 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I had my first wobble too hearing about Boris in ICU. As soon as I woke I put the TV on with some trepidation and for once was happy to see the dippy sports presenter talking her usual twaddle.
		
Click to expand...

Lol I know what you mean.
Don’t even know why there is a sports slot atm.


----------



## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Lock down doesn't stop the virus.
We are locked down to slow the spread.
The longer the lock down, the longer the threat takes to subside.
We have already been told by numerous experts that it is likely 60% - 80% of the population will contract it.
Iceland have done plenty testing per ca-pita and results show 50% of positive tests are asymptomatic.

*YOU REALLY NEED TO CALM DOWN*.
		
Click to expand...

re: lockdown - read what I said, our current lockdown doesn't stop a virus yes, but that's not what I said.
re: threat subsiding - read what I said, the threat to us doesn't subside until the 80-90% of the UK get it. In LEDC's that number will be even higher.
Iceland's test sample was under 20k.....

I'm working with a friend, we normally do historical cricket data as fun, but have shifted to this. We're not experts by any means, he's a PHD Epidemiologist (his division is Musculoskelatal Science) and I do financial modelling. Whats your expertise, whats your conclusion? If there's any great data sources we might have missed, please share!


----------



## DRW (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			re: lockdown - read what I said, our current lockdown doesn't stop a virus yes, but that's not what I said.
re: threat subsiding - read what I said, the threat to us doesn't subside until the 80-90% of the UK get it. In LEDC's that number will be even higher.
Iceland's test sample was under 20k.....

I'm working with a friend, we normally do historical cricket data as fun, but have shifted to this. We're not experts by any means, he's a PHD Epidemiologist (his division is Musculoskelatal Science) and I do financial modelling. Whats your expertise, whats your conclusion? If there's any great data sources we might have missed, please share!
		
Click to expand...

Lockdown certainly doesn't get rid of the virus, to me it is just to much out there in the world for it to go away.....can help to flatten and prolong it.

Keep searching and reading especially on science or medical sites, there is some great stuff happening and for me its been great reading about and very promising. Used to love chemistry at A level  and reminded me how much I love the subject and 'studying' it, wish I had done my degree in it.

One game changer tho, could be getting better medicine to fight the virus, if you become infected. So recovery is quicker, the virus is less potent and it will save lives. Vaccine is the dream but depends on many things and really is a pipe dream at the moment, as it is just to early to say.

Quite a number of promising drugs to fight the virus on more equal terms are being trialled and expect them to get fast tracked trails etc. Some of the SARS/MERS/other viral drugs sound really promising but time will tell...

Already told the wife, if I get it and I get it bad, then sign me up for the medical trials, as would like to help the advancement for others, even if it is to late for me.


----------



## User20204 (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Iceland's test sample was under 20k.....

!
		
Click to expand...

But it's relevant to their population so gives, I assume, excellent data for most.


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## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2020)

Spain;

RECOVERED;

Tuesday 31st March.........19.259 (+ 2479)
 Wednesday 1st April........22.647 (+3.338)
 Thursday 2nd April..........26.743 (+4.096)
 Friday 3rd April ...............30.513 (+3.770)
 Saturday 4th April...........34.219 (+3.706)
 Sunday 5th April..............38.080 (+3861)
 Monday 6th April.............40.437(+ 2.357)
 Tuesday 7th April.............43.208 (+2771)

INFECTED;

Tuesday 31st March.........94.417 (+9222)
 Wednesday 1st April.......102.136 (+7.719)
 Thursday 2nd April.........110.238 (+8.102)
 Friday 3rd April ..............117.710 (+7.472)
 Saturday 4th April..........124.736 (+7.026)
 Sunday 5th April.............130.759 (+6.023)
 Monday 6th April.............135.032 (+4.273)
 Tuesday 7th April.............140.510 (+5.478)

DEATHS;

Tuesday 31st March.........8.189 (+849)
 Wednesday 1st April........9.053 (+864)
 Thursday 2nd April.........10.003 (+950)
 Friday 3rd April ..............10.935 (+932)
 Saturday 4th April...........11.744 (+809)
 Sunday 5th April.............12.414 (+674)
 Monday 6th April.............13.055 (+641)
 Tuesday 7th April.............13.798 (+743)


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 7, 2020)

Was called in for a Skype meeting 40 min ago with head of our department, director and HR and was asked to take furlough until 31st May. 2 weeks or so would’ve been one thing, but this long. 

Doesn’t feel good at all tbh. Some may know that I’ve had some issues in the past at work, but still feel a bit down and lots of thoughts running in my head.


----------



## chellie (Apr 7, 2020)

HID was furloughed  straight away for the 12 weeks.


----------



## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

DRW said:



			Lockdown certainly doesn't get rid of the virus, to me it is just to much out there in the world for it to go away.....can help to flatten and prolong it.
		
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In practise you are right, as I said. You'd need a full Isolation for the incubation period + duration the disease was transmittable (that's not 100% certain yet). And then further time for internal household transmission. Then completely closed borders. By full that would mean no one outside, not even NHS staff. Its not physically possible, but that's the only way you could have normality back in the UK until a vaccine. (unless you were a pilot, worked in international trade etc...)



HappyHacker1 said:



			But it's relevant to their population so gives, I assume, excellent data for most.
		
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The sample is too small to take any data from.Not sure what you mean by relevancy to population. It's just over 5% of their population, but tourists are included in that. In case you didn't know Iceland has normally 7 tourists to 1 Islandia. Flights were still going into March. basically there's nothing out of that data.


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## Slab (Apr 7, 2020)

I think unless you've been directly affected by this already then the UK's PM suffering from it and going into ICU is a huge reality check for many of us regardless of the residual extent we've all been feeling to date

Makes recent headlines/behaviour about bog-rolls and pasta seems ridiculous


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## IanM (Apr 7, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Lol I know what you mean.
Don’t even know why there is a sports slot atm.
		
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TalkSport is a hoot at the moment.... struggling to fill time... actually, the quality has gone up!!


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## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Was called in for a Skype meeting 40 min ago with head of our department, director and HR and was asked to take furlough until 31st May. 2 weeks or so would’ve been one thing, but this long.

Doesn’t feel good at all tbh. Some may know that I’ve had some issues in the past at work, but still feel a bit down and lots of thoughts running in my head.
		
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Sorry, that sucks. Hopefully you can live on the 80%? 

If so take it as a bit of RnR then you'll be killling it when you go back!


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Sorry, that sucks. Hopefully you can live on the 80%? 

If so take it as a bit of RnR then you'll be killling it when you go back!
		
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Actually, our company pays up the difference, so will get 100% which is positive. I just don’t know what to do all day long. Live in a one bedroom flat with my gf who’s working from home. No garden or anything.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Was called in for a Skype meeting 40 min ago with head of our department, director and HR and was asked to take furlough until 31st May. 2 weeks or so would’ve been one thing, but this long.

Doesn’t feel good at all tbh. Some may know that I’ve had some issues in the past at work, but still feel a bit down and lots of thoughts running in my head.
		
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That seems excessive. I don't know your industry but how can they know that far ahead? I know they can cancel it with short notice but why not do a rolling 3-4 weeks at a time? 

The upside, something to hold onto, is that there is a decent chance, again depending on your industry, that you will be back well before then.


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That seems excessive. I don't know your industry but how can they know that far ahead? I know they can cancel it with short notice but why not do a rolling 3-4 weeks at a time? 

The upside, something to hold onto, is that there is a decent chance, again depending on your industry, that you will be back well before then.
		
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I should’ve been clearer saying that they did say that 31 May is the starting point. If/as things change, so will the date of my return change. 

Sports gambling, so when the sport calendar is getting filled up again...


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## Orikoru (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Actually, our company pays up the difference, so will get 100%, so that’s the positive. I just don’t know what to do all day long. Live in a one bedroom flat with my gf who’s working from home. No garden or anything.
		
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Take up a hobby? My dad bought himself a keyboard to learn. I've been playing much more acoustic guitar and recording terrible covers to post on Facebook.   I also revisited Red Dead Redemption 2 which uses up a lot of time.

I'm still working from home though as well to be fair. If I wasn't my wife would have driven me mental by now. She's already coming up with 101 things for me to do as it is.


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## drdel (Apr 7, 2020)

On one bright note. Clear blue sky here - not one aircraft or con trail in sight. Reminds me how we all take things for granted up until the point its taken away - stay healthy !!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I should’ve been clearer saying that they did say that 31 May is the starting point. If/as things change, so will the date of my return change.

Sports gambling, so when the sport calendar is getting filled up again...
		
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I'm sure sport will begin in some form before then, partly for tv puroposes, partly for the gambling industry which is massive in this country. There may not be spectators involved but I can see certain sports adapting and starting up again.


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## User20204 (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			The sample is too small to take any data from.Not sure what you mean by relevancy to population. It's just over 5% of their population, but tourists are included in that. In case you didn't know Iceland has normally 7 tourists to 1 Islandia. Flights were still going into March. basically there's nothing out of that data.
		
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Name me another country that's tested 5% of their population ? and I very much doubt there will be many tourists around for the past month. 

7 tourists per 1 Islandia ? So you're telling me there is 4.4 million people wandering around Iceland, nonsense. btw, I've been, 10 days in 2016.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Actually, our company pays up the difference, so will get 100% which is positive. I just don’t know what to do all day long. Live in a one bedroom flat with my gf who’s working from home. No garden or anything.
		
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That must be tough.
Get your exercise everyday.
It’s not normal for us to be stuck indoors and for a golfer even worse.
But it’s abnormal times and won’t last forever.
Sit down close your eyes and think , is there something I have always wanted to do.
Play an instrument ( not drums) etc and if you can go for it.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 7, 2020)

Just looking into the mortgage stuff.
They will charge interest for the holiday period.
Doesn’t look like the Banks are actually being compliant enough. It should be frozen completely. The government has said no evictions for non paying tenants.. a decision made without agreement of the landlords and owners. I am sympathetic to tenants with their loss of income, utterly and completely. But the Banks are not, as they have just avoided a loss ... it’s a disgrace we have all lost and that should be equitable .. we are all in this together!!!! (Apparently!?!)


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## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Name me another country that's tested 5% of their population ? and I very much doubt there will be many tourists around for the past month.

7 tourists per 1 Islandia ? So you're telling me there is 4.4 million people wandering around Iceland, nonsense. btw, I've been, 10 days in 2016.
		
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That's obviously per year. So just over 2 million a year.  

You obviously don't deal with data, so I won't go into much detail apart from these questions.

- What information can you gain from a country with 1,562 cases, even with their exceptional testing by your standards. (just over 1/10th of the total cases in London 3 days ago where there is no testing until hospitalisation)
- What information can you gain from a country with a population of 3.5269 per sq. Km compared to the Uk's 430 per sq. Km, or Londons 4542 per sq. Km. Given that this spreads by contact. 

If you can answer those. Happy to exchange ideas, but I wouldn't tell me to calm down with 0 research. I'm perfectly calm, there is just no way in practise to fix this or protect everyone until a vaccine. People should know this is gonna be a long haul.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			On one bright note. Clear blue sky here - not one aircraft or con trail in sight. Reminds me how we all take things for granted up until the point its taken away - stay healthy !!
		
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Remember Joni Mitchell's song from 1970 - Big Yellow Taxi?
And, back in the 80s, a California based consultant we used told stories of the 'Malathion Parties' he and others would have to avoid being sprayed in their various SF valeys during the Fruit Fly epedemic.
Nothing really changes - probably because humans are, generally, forward/future looking animals and only consider past events when forced to.
As a result, 'progress' happens very (relatively) quickly. But some of the consequences of such progress can also be (perhaps unexpectedly) negative or even be 'catastrophic'! A vast increase in the variety and availability of goods is in the 'progress' category, while the effects of human generated global warming are in the 'catastrophic' one!


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## User20204 (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That's obviously per year. So just over 2 million a year. 

You obviously don't deal with data, so I won't go into much detail apart from these questions.

- What information can you gain from a country with 1,562 cases, even with their exceptional testing by your standards. (just over 1/10th of the total cases in London 3 days ago where there is no testing until hospitalisation)
- What information can you gain from a country with a population of 3.5269 per sq. Km compared to the Uk's 430 per sq. Km, or Londons 4542 per sq. Km. Given that this spreads by contact.

If you can answer those. Happy to exchange ideas, but I wouldn't tell me to calm down with 0 research. I'm perfectly calm, there is just no way in practise to fix this or protect everyone until a vaccine. People should know this is gonna be a long haul.
		
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Your 7 - 1 ratio post didn't say it was per year so obviously I took you to task on it, it implied at one time. I accept that Iceland and their population is sparse and the likes of London is dense, my point on their test sample was, 50% were asymptomatic so figures we get particularly from the UK  are only based on positive test within hospitals, so it portrays a much worse state than in reality of probably infections.  

I don't have the answers, but the initial post of yours I quoted came over, to me anyway as if we were about to face world obliteration, which clearly isn't the case. I do agree whatever info come out of China can be taken with a pinch of salt, however, it's so typical of us in the west to believe everything we are told yet rubbish what certain other countries tell us, funny that isn't it. 

If folk don't think this is going to be a long haul then they obviously haven't been listening, we've been getting told that for months now, not weeks.


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## DRW (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			In practise you are right, as I said. You'd need a full Isolation for the incubation period + duration the disease was transmittable (that's not 100% certain yet). And then further time for internal household transmission. Then completely closed borders. By full that would mean no one outside, not even NHS staff. Its not physically possible, but that's the only way you could have normality back in the UK until a vaccine. (unless you were a pilot, worked in international trade etc...)

snip.
		
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Pretty much what I and Justone was posting about the other day on the Essential Services thread. Been wrestling with the big picture(and/or end game) for weeks now and only see medium to long term solutions.

The complete lockdown, doesn't solve it either, as an example if 5-10 people are living in the same house and one is infected, then the next and so on, one after the other, it will takes months of lockdown to 'kill' the virus off and doing it across the world, just means it will never happen. Society will breakdown across the world and supply chains & infrastructure will break long before that(I am not just talking about food btw, there is a far bigger picture with supply chains/infrastructure across many things). All a bit scary to think about, bit movie kind of thinking

Medicine in treating the virus if infected(most likely to improve very fast) and a vaccine are our best hopes, as it doesn't even look like heat slows it down in hotter countries like heat does with some other respiratory viruses like flu but thankfully CO19 looks like it isn't really mutating from the uploaded genes/structure(?) breakdowns from around the world, from these early months. Not that it is being currently forced to mutate, as it is surviving just fine and has interacted with a lot of different humans.

A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing, that being said

All the best and be interested in hearing about any charts etc, you come up with.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 7, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1247340621104283650
Kind of vaguely cheered me up for a few seconds. And I'll take whatever I can get in that area nowadays.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Just looking into the mortgage stuff.
They will charge interest for the holiday period.
Doesn’t look like the Banks are actually being compliant enough. It should be frozen completely. The government has said no evictions for non paying tenants.. a decision made without agreement of the landlords and owners. I am sympathetic to tenants with their loss of income, utterly and completely. But the Banks are not, as they have just avoided a loss ... it’s a disgrace we have all lost and that should be equitable .. we are all in this together!!!! (Apparently!?!)
		
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Especially when the public/government bailed the greedy so and so's out! This is a time the bank's should be repaying the general public.


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			re: lockdown - read what I said, our current lockdown doesn't stop a virus yes, but that's not what I said.
re: threat subsiding - read what I said, the threat to us doesn't subside until the 80-90% of the UK get it. In LEDC's that number will be even higher.
Iceland's test sample was under 20k.....

I'm working with a friend, we normally do historical cricket data as fun, but have shifted to this. We're not experts by any means, he's a PHD Epidemiologist (his division is Musculoskelatal Science) and I do financial modelling. Whats your expertise, whats your conclusion? If there's any great data sources we might have missed, please share!
		
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OT but feel free to share what you do on historical cricket data if youve got some time/bored.


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I should’ve been clearer saying that they did say that 31 May is the starting point. If/as things change, so will the date of my return change.

Sports gambling, so when the sport calendar is getting filled up again...
		
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Sorry to hear, at least youre being paid. Think of us poor sports bettors who arent 

Is there something youve always wanted to learn/improve/develop, now would be a great time to start, allocate a few hours a day and treat it like work, even if its only stuff for you


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## bobmac (Apr 7, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1247340621104283650
Kind of vaguely cheered me up for a few seconds. And I'll take whatever I can get in that area nowadays.
		
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Is it only Monday? This week is dragging


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## Leftitshort (Apr 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Especially when the public/government bailed the greedy so and so's out! This is a time the bank's should be repaying the general public.
		
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Mine are just adding it on to future payments. A £28 p/month increase for 14 years. (Or until remortgage time)


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## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Your 7 - 1 ratio post didn't say it was per year so obviously I took you to task on it, it implied at one time. I accept that Iceland and their population is sparse and the likes of London is dense, my point on their test sample was, 50% were asymptomatic so figures we get particularly from the UK  are only based on positive test within hospitals, so it portrays a much worse state than in reality of probably infections. 

I don't have the answers, but the initial post of yours I quoted came over, to me anyway as if we were about to face world obliteration, which clearly isn't the case. I do agree whatever info come out of China can be taken with a pinch of salt, however, it's so typical of us in the west to believe everything we are told yet rubbish what certain other countries tell us, funny that isn't it.

If folk don't think this is going to be a long haul then they obviously haven't been listening, we've been getting told that for months now, not weeks.
		
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Turns out we are pretty much singing of the same hymn sheet.

- I agree on the figures, hence the deep dive into finding out more information. Death rate / recovery rate is all you can go off and even that has discrepancies on classification. Obviously you need to keep in mind the asymptomatic numbers, but you can't make any real facts on that because no one knows! (I would hazard a guess that we have closer to 300,000 cases, but that's just guesswork)

- We are not about to face world obliteration, I'm very calm, we're in the UK and most will be fine. However those who have whatever makeup that makes the disease hit badly will die all over the world, regardless of whether they receive treatment or not, whether they vote left or right, whether they are black or white. that's a small %, but a lot of people.

- There is a larger % of people that will recover with the aid of treatment. It's ok for us, we are isolating and can protect the NHS to some extent. When this hits the poorer sections of the world (or at least we get data on it) There is a huge amount of people that will die because they don't have access to healthcare needed. That's terrifying.

A potential concern is that our recovery rate is so much less than other MEDC's. I'm worried that the NHS is at breaking point, even tho we might be potentially not admitting people until its too late, these people may have stood a chance elsewhere in the world if they had been admitted earlier.  (But then other countries could be admitting people that would have been fine regardless if they had received treatment) - we haven't got to the bottom of that with the data that's available. I suspect we never will.

Another concern is the mutation of the disease, That's my buddies field not me and he doesn't specialise in infectious diseases. but that Icelandic report found 40 mutations with that small sample size and the fact it doesn't even need to mutate to infect currently. That's very scary, a mutating disease is much harder to create a vaccine for apparently, which is the only thing that will stop the deaths or economic damage.

TLDR: People need to act better and appreciate the seriousness of the situation. If my rants make one person not go outside once, I'm happy. People need to understand that a few from their golf club when they go back, won't be there anymore. Imagine that compared to a cricket club in India.  We are so lucky to live in this country regardless of what anyone says or rants about, but even we are powerless to actually fight, we can just do our bit to stop those that have been shot, try and get care to stay alive. 

Every time we think we have a weapon, it's not the case. hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin were proof of this.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 7, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Mine are just adding it on to future payments. A £28 p/month increase for 14 years. (Or until remortgage time)
		
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Yeah but it should be frozen!


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## Leftitshort (Apr 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Yeah but it should be frozen!
		
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In their defence (slightly) there were other options. Extending the term etc, but this was the default


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			Sorry to hear, at least youre being paid. Think of us poor sports bettors who arent 

Is there something youve always wanted to learn/improve/develop, now would be a great time to start, allocate a few hours a day and treat it like work, even if its only stuff for you
		
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Yeah, to be getting full pay is of course great. Could’ve been so much worse. There’s still Belarusian football and Russian table tennis (the amount of users and total wagering on table tennis has shot through the roof last couple of weeks)...

Might treat myself to that electric piano that I’ve talked about for so long.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 7, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			In their defence (slightly) there were other options. Extending the term etc, but this was the default
		
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I still think it's immoral considering the mess they created of their own greed and we the public bailed them out. This is their time to shine and repay the British public.


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 7, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Well you can each go for a good hour-long exercise walk, either together or separately to give you both a couple of hours space from each other. 
Your essential shopping you could maybe alternate. 


I'm in a flat on my own, sure it's boring but everyone's in the same boat and on full pay I just keep telling myself I'm luckier than many millions of people. 

YouTube, catch up tv, Internet, there's really loads to keep you busy once you adjust.
		
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Yeah, I didn’t mean the post to come out that whiny to be honest. Of course aware that I’m also very lucky who’ll keep getting full pay at same time as people lose their jobs completely, or worse. 

There’ll be a lot of YouTube!


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Take up a hobby? My dad bought himself a keyboard to learn. I've been playing much more acoustic guitar and recording terrible covers to post on Facebook.   I also revisted Red Dead Redemption 2 which uses up a lot of time. 

I'm still working from home though as well to be fair. If I wasn't my wife would have driven me mental by now. She's already coming up with 101 things for me to do as it is.
		
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May actually pick up the guitar again. Stopped playing 5 years ago when I moved over to the UK.


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah, to be getting full pay is of course great. Could’ve been so much worse. There’s still Belarusian football and Russian table tennis (the amount of users and total wagering on table tennis has shot through the roof last couple of weeks)...

Might treat myself to that electric piano that I’ve talked about for so long.
		
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Online Poker has got a whole lot softer these last few weeks albeit most of the sites are creaking under extra traffic. Just need to find a way to play more than twice a week without going crazy lol.

If Dana White has his way UFC249 is going ahead on a remote island somewhere too

Not surprised about the table tennis, I see the UK managed to lose 2.6m on the cartoon national despite being maxed at £10 a horse too. Good for the donation to charity if nothing else 

Good luck with the piano/guitar etc


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## Leftitshort (Apr 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I still think it's immoral considering the mess they created of their own greed and we the public bailed them out. This is their time to shine and repay the British public.
		
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 Agreed to a point, but contractually I signed up to a fixed rate for 5 years. Rates were only going up...surely


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Agreed to a point, but contractually I signed up to a fixed rate for 5 years. Rates were only going up...surely 

Click to expand...

And they will do long term once we out of this expect RPI of 7% and interest rates of 2-3%


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			I see the UK managed to lose 2.6m on the cartoon national despite being maxed at £10 a horse too. Good for the donation to charity if nothing else 

Click to expand...

I thought the on-line Grand National was just like the real thing.  My horse fell and got shot (off camera).  And then when it was over, I went to my car and some Scousers had jacked it up on bricks and nicked the virtual wheels.


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I thought the on-line Grand National was just like the real thing.  My horse fell and got shot (off camera).  And then when it was over, I went to my car and some Scousers had jacked it up on bricks and nicked the virtual wheels.
		
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If some had their way that would be the future of racing


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			And they will do long term once we out of this expect RPI of 7% and interest rates of 2-3%
		
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Why?


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## Leftitshort (Apr 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			Why?
		
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I’m sure we were saying that in 2008


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## User62651 (Apr 7, 2020)

Is it 852 deaths since yesterday across all UK, Sky news listing separately, seems like a larger than expected increase given a drop from Monday to Tuesday - analysts views?


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## Ross61 (Apr 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Is it 852 deaths since yesterday across all UK, Sky news listing separately, seems like a larger than expected increase given a drop from Monday to Tuesday - analysts views?
		
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From what I’ve read/heard Monday’s have been lower figures due to the lag of reported deaths over the weekends. Look at the trend over the week rather than individual days.


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## User62651 (Apr 7, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			From what I’ve read/heard Monday’s have been lower figures due to the lag of reported deaths over the weekends. Look at the trend over the week rather than individual days.
		
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I had read that weekend thing, still seemed a move off flattening the curve, hopefully a blip and it'll reduce. Tbh I thought it was Wednesday today😟 is it?


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## IanM (Apr 7, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			And they will do long term once we out of this expect RPI of 7% and interest rates of 2-3%
		
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Interested in the source for that..... trying to get my head round what I think, but I am not sure....


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## Ross61 (Apr 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I had read that weekend thing, still seemed a move off flattening the curve, hopefully a blip and it'll reduce. Tbh I thought it was Wednesday today😟 is it?
		
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I hope not, if it’s Wednesday I’ve missed my Uncle’s online funeral.
(Unrelated to Coronavirus and expected for over a year)


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			Why?
		
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Cost of living will go up once everyone's back at work, petrol demand will return. The price of oil will return to normal forcing up transport cost of food etc 

The dreaded b word is still on the cards so expect interest rates to rise 

I'd be surprised of RPI below 4% and interest rates below 1% by the end of 2021


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## Rooter (Apr 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			Online Poker has got a whole lot softer these last few weeks albeit most of the sites are creaking under extra traffic. Just need to find a way to play more than twice a week without going crazy lol.
		
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Steve, what is the best platform these days? not played online for years!


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Cost of living will go up once everyone's back at work, petrol demand will return. The price of oil will return to normal forcing up transport cost of food etc

The dreaded b word is still on the cards so expect interest rates to rise

I'd be surprised of RPI below 4% and interest rates below 1% by the end of 2021
		
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Id bet my house that interest rates are 1% or lower by the end of 2021. 

I understand the inflation to some degree, albeit surely weve got to benefit from the lower oil prices first before we suffer the inflation effect of them rising year on year next year. Will also be some suppressors to inflation with the recession and a severe decrease in demand in a lot of industries and areas. That said I just cant see how interest rates are going anywhere for a while, there seems to be this assumption that we need to return to higher interest rates in the medium to long term (before this started) and couldnt see it then and even moreso cant see it now.

This is going to lead to failing business, unemployment, falling house prices, a high level or mortgage defaults etc, cant see it being made harder for everyone by increasing interest rates


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## IanM (Apr 7, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Cost of living will go up once everyone's back at work, petrol demand will return. The price of oil will return to normal forcing up transport cost of food etc

The dreaded b word is still on the cards so expect interest rates to rise

I'd be surprised of RPI below 4% and interest rates below 1% by the end of 2021
		
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Understand the first half, but the downward pressure on interest rates will continue...... taxes will have to rise which will deaden inflationary pressure.   But I can think of several reasons why the opposite could apply, all bets off at the mo!!


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

Rooter said:



			Steve, what is the best platform these days? not played online for years!
		
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and another fish returns to the water 

the right answer is probably it depends, based on what you want to play. pokerstars (uk client) probably the best option (especially if you want to play home games with friends etc) and offers the widest range of games, partypoker is now the number 2 site (but been a bit unstable of late), otherwise its the microgaming network via grosvenor or similar


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## harpo_72 (Apr 7, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Cost of living will go up once everyone's back at work, petrol demand will return. The price of oil will return to normal forcing up transport cost of food etc

The dreaded b word is still on the cards so expect interest rates to rise

I'd be surprised of RPI below 4% and interest rates below 1% by the end of 2021
		
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By if people are succeeding at working from home and are as productive if not more .. why should we have a fixed work place .. pushing the demand for fuel back down. 
Also credit is a key issue, surely those that have lived unnecessarily on credit have learnt a lesson ? 
How we are living is not sustainable and we cannot keep absorbing costs, electronics is filling up landfill with people just updating because they want the latest shiney.. 
or are you expecting us to return to old habits and the world to go back to its bad behaviours ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 7, 2020)

Lighthearted folks.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 7, 2020)

Our local shop having to shut due to lack of 'staff'... Family business and one member has been diagnosed as having covid and the rest are self isolating... Not good news for the family and of concern for those of us that have shopped there recently...


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## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Our local shop having to shut due to lack of 'staff'... Family business and one member has been diagnosed as having covid and the rest are self isolating... Not good news for the family and of concern for those of us that have shopped there recently...
		
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Hillingdon has had more cases than Manchester, I'd try not to worry too much and take care, assume everyone is infected.

You'll tear your hair out if you worry every time there's a link to a new case. Definitely found that out when it started breaking out in the Wharf.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			By if people are succeeding at working from home and are as productive if not more .. why should we have a fixed work place .. pushing the demand for fuel back down.
Also credit is a key issue, surely those that have lived unnecessarily on credit have learnt a lesson ?
How we are living is not sustainable and we cannot keep absorbing costs, electronics is filling up landfill with people just updating because they want the latest shiney..
or are you expecting us to return to old habits and the world to go back to its bad behaviours ?
		
Click to expand...

People will not agree with my inflation and interest predictions (won't be betting on it. I'll prepare for it and hope it never happens)

However the habits of people won't change, people will return to type soon as possible! All the over the top trips around the world will carry on raising pollution back to previous levels 

Maybe the ability to get credit will drop but people will just revert to type


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2020)

Motorways quiet today, M6,M1,M25, M2,M20 Chatham, Croydon & Mitcham relatively quiet, Merton busy, M40 quiet, but Birmingham very busy and Wolverhampton silly busy, far too many people and youths on the streets in groups in the West Midlands, cars everywhere full of families! It’s no wonder the figures are high in the West Mids!! 

And can someone tell me how Uber cars are allowed to be out working, no social distancing can be achieved, no protection screen, you won’t know who’s been in the car before, and not been cleaned between fares! The list is endless!!


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## MegaSteve (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Hillingdon has had more cases than Manchester, I'd try not to worry too much and take care, assume everyone is infected.

You'll tear your hair out if you worry every time there's a link to a new case. Definitely found that out when it started breaking out in the Wharf.
		
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Cheers Dan... Wise words... Thank you 👍...


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

Well that's my  Jet2 holiday to Kos gone on 14th June, Jets2 cancelled all holidays until the 17 Jun at the earliest.

Now we have BBC reporters outside of St Thomas's reporters outside No10 and reporters at Westminster. Which bit of essential journeys has confused them.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			May actually pick up the guitar again. Stopped playing 5 years ago when I moved over to the UK.
		
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That’s it set a goal .
Mine is to learn the solo at the end of Hotel California.


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## User62651 (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well that's my  Jet2 holiday to Kos gone on 14th June, Jets2 cancelled all holidays until the 17 Jun at the earliest.

Now we have BBC reporters outside of St Thomas's reporters outside No10 and reporters at Westminster. Which bit of essential journeys has confused them.
		
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Can't they offer a postponement rather than cancel?
Agree re reporters, said very same to Mrs earlier.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Can't they offer a postponement rather than cancel?
Agree re reporters, said very same to Mrs earlier.
		
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Will be contacted in cancellation order. Unfortunately HID is essential worker in her field and is expecting things to get busier once this is over so cannot come up with any dates. She was retiring 1st July but has been asked to consider staying on.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Can't they offer a postponement rather than cancel?
Agree re reporters, said very same to Mrs earlier.
		
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I think re the reporters they are local ones who live in the area .
It’s why we are seeing ones we havnt seen before.
Not sure about camera crews though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Well that's my  Jet2 holiday to Kos gone on 14th June, Jets2 cancelled all holidays until the 17 Jun at the earliest.

Now we have BBC reporters outside of St Thomas's reporters outside No10 and reporters at Westminster. Which bit of essential journeys has confused them.
		
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Have you spotted where the Sky News reporters are as well as reporters of other news channels.  I'm doubting that it's just the BBC.

Oh - hold on - LBC reporter outside St Thomas' reporting that the pavement outside St Thomas' is full of photographers and radio and TV crews...


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## Rooter (Apr 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			and another fish returns to the water 

the right answer is probably it depends, based on what you want to play. pokerstars (uk client) probably the best option (especially if you want to play home games with friends etc) and offers the widest range of games, partypoker is now the number 2 site (but been a bit unstable of late), otherwise its the microgaming network via grosvenor or similar
		
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Thanks love, will have a wee download of pokerstars and drop a couple of sheckles in. I always enjoyed a tournament! Used to use Betfair i think, been years!!!


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## fundy (Apr 7, 2020)

Rooter said:



			Thanks love, will have a wee download of pokerstars and drop a couple of sheckles in. I always enjoyed a tournament! Used to use Betfair i think, been years!!!
		
Click to expand...

give it 6 months and stars and betfair will be the same company!!!!!


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think re the reporters they are local ones who live in the area .
It’s why we are seeing ones we havnt seen before.
Not sure about camera crews though.
		
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I'm seeing the normal main stream BBC reporters. Don't care where they live they are reporting on -----nothing as nobody's going to come out onto the pavement and give them a scoop. Their just repeating and regurgitating rubbish


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

Stupid half hour at the briefing are these reporters incapable of thinking up different questions.

Briefing good, reporters poor.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 7, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Almost every single chinese takeaway near me has shut down , is this widespread across the country ?

Chatter sites are speculating that the majority of their food is sourced from china, not sure how true this is.
if it is true can see their trade going down when they reope n.
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			Of the two we use, one has closed indefinitely, the other appears to still be open; well, it hasn't got a notice up saying it is closed.  *Don't know about the third one in the High street.*

I could understand them closing as I have heard of people refusing to eat Chinese in case they get Corona Virus.

However the 1st prize for muppetry has to be those setting fire to 5G masts to stop the Chinese spreading Corona Virus via the 5G network.    The really scary thing is that they are quite possibly capable of breeding. 

Click to expand...

Seems to be business as usual at the third one.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 7, 2020)

Dominic needs to stop saying "is that ok or do you want to come back?". Makes him look weak. Answer and move to the next reporter.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 7, 2020)

The Covid 19 pandemic has affected me more profoundly than I might have imagined.
The shelter-in-place directive has, over a few weeks time, made me realize than quarantine is right in the sweet spot of my comfort zone. 
I may get a little bored, perhaps, but for the most part, I'm really content veging out in the comfort and quiet of my home.
Should I survive the crisis, it may be difficult to get me out for anything more than walking the dog.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			The Covid 19 pandemic has affected me more profoundly than I might have imagined.
The shelter-in-place directive has, over a few weeks time, made me realize than quarantine is right in the sweet spot of my comfort zone.
I may get a little bored, perhaps, but for the most part, I'm really content veging out in the comfort and quiet of my home.
Should I survive the crisis, it may be difficult to get me out for anything more than walking the dog.
		
Click to expand...

Soon as this is over you will be cleaning them grooves ready to go.
Just like the rest of us.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Soon as this is over you will be cleaning them grooves ready to go.
Just like the rest of us.
		
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You're probably right.  I may have just needed a little quiet time, and I suppose that quiet time will soon get old as well.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Soon as this is over you will be cleaning them grooves ready to go.
Just like the rest of us.
		
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What's this cleaning grooves thing, am I missing a trick  However I have cleaned and polished a large ball marker.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 7, 2020)

The brightside will be the Forum meet ups after sanity returns
I can't quite believe that GM will pay for everyone to go for a 3-day stay at Gleneagles with the field playing all 3 courses
They may even pay for overseas folk to travel - especially if its their 1st event
If true this is outstandingly generous and something to look forward to


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## Imurg (Apr 7, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			The brightside will be the Forum meet ups after sanity returns
I can't quite believe that GM will pay for everyone to go for a 3-day stay at Gleneagles with the field playing all 3 courses
They may even pay for overseas folk to travel - especially if its their 1st event
If true this is outstandingly generous and something to look forward to
		
Click to expand...

I like your style


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## bluewolf (Apr 7, 2020)

Traminator said:



			There's a golfer out there who hasn't done this already???😀
		
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I haven’t. I bought new irons instead...


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## Imurg (Apr 7, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I haven’t. I bought new irons instead...
		
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I like your style too


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2020)

Corona virus has affected me by highlighting the very best and worst in people.  It humbles me when I see what some have done for others.


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## User20204 (Apr 7, 2020)

It's effected me so badly that I've managed to powerwash my drive and patio, such things are unheard of in modern times.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2020)

Another tough day. Biggest number of deaths on the unit since the outbreak and a spike in patients coming in as well.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another tough day. Biggest number of deaths on the unit since the outbreak and a spike in patients coming in as well.
		
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Patients in UK wide is down, seems your unlucky as the SE figures showed a reduction


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

My NHS Responder alarm went off when HID was cooking tee, bloddy hell its loud.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Patients in UK wide is down, seems your unlucky as the SE figures showed a reduction
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52167016

Another example of things to not totally believe - aka 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics'!

And I've worked in the Statistics field!


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Patients in UK wide is down, seems your unlucky as the SE figures showed a reduction
		
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Hoping its a glitch but very close to going through to the next escalation area as capacity increases and as I said biggest one day death toll I've seen. Hope for the Berkshire area that's our hiatus as it's been tough for everyone on the unit. Add in the numbers for tonights shift not looking good and not my best day in the NHS


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## AmandaJR (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			My NHS Responder alarm went off when HID was cooking tee, bloddy hell its loud.
		
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I did the test thing and it is loud. Not had any genuine calls though - was yours one?


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52167016

Another example of things to not totally believe - aka 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics'!

And I've worked in the Statistics field!
		
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So your saying that the patients in figures given at a national press conference are wrong.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I did the test thing and it is loud. Not had any genuine calls though - was yours one?
		
Click to expand...

One for prescription pick up yesterday. Had to drop tonight's as I had a drink


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## DanFST (Apr 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not my best day in the NHS
		
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I'm sure yourself and everyone else are performing admirably. Keep it up, the better days will come back


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What's this cleaning grooves thing, am I missing a trick  However I have cleaned and polished a large ball marker.
		
Click to expand...

Don't you need to use the grooves to get dirt in them...


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm sure yourself and everyone else are performing admirably. Keep it up, the better days will come back 

Click to expand...

Cheers. From a personal perspective I sometimes feel my role is irrelevant when you see the hours and the effort all of the nursing staff and doctors are putting in, working the long hours in hard conditions with all the PPE and now the increasing heat. Think they found today hard with the patients arriving and then the deaths as well. Even in death corona is making life hard and there are now strict rules regarding the way they prepare the body for the porters to pick up to take to the morgue. Thanks for the thumbs up though. Much appreciated. As I said hoping today was a glitch and we're peaking out


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## Dando (Apr 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Was called in for a Skype meeting 40 min ago with head of our department, director and HR and was asked to take furlough until 31st May. 2 weeks or so would’ve been one thing, but this long.

Doesn’t feel good at all tbh. Some may know that I’ve had some issues in the past at work, but still feel a bit down and lots of thoughts running in my head.
		
Click to expand...

If you need to chat, you’ve got my number mate


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Dominic needs to stop saying "is that ok or do you want to come back?". Makes him look weak. Answer and move to the next reporter.
		
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Ministers were being accused of stonewalling or answering a different question to that being asked with no opportunity for the questioner to do a follow up - so they changed things about a week ago I think.  Better now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So your saying that the patients in figures given at a national press conference are wrong.
		
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I think it’s that figures presented for any single day may be compiled from numbers over a span of days, due to delays due to reporting centrally or through verification delays.  From one day to the next the comparisons may not be on a like for like basis, and so we have to be careful drawing conclusions on trends from a few days numbers...I think the Scottish FM may have said something about that today or maybe yesterday.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So your saying that the patients in figures given at a national press conference are wrong.
		
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Is there an agenda to your questions as your simply coming across as an utter breast!

Give the man a break.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ministers were being accused of stonewalling or answering a different question to that being asked with no opportunity for the questioner to do a follow up - so they changed things about a week ago I think.  Better now.
		
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Accused by who, I've watched them all and they are continued to be asked the same questions that have been answered. Just because they don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't  dealt with.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Is there an agenda to your questions as your simply coming across as an utter breast!

Give the man a break.
		
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A break from what, he said the figures regarding new patients was wrong and then produced the figures relating to deaths.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2020)

Some questions are a bit cringeworthy.  Laura Kuenssbourg asking who makes the decisions when Boris is away.  Good work if you can get it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Some questions are a bit cringeworthy.  Laura Kuenssbourg asking who makes the decisions when Boris is away.  Good work if you can get it.
		
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Been answered god knows how many times on the BBC, perhaps she should watch her own employers channel.


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2020)

Traminator said:



			There's a golfer out there who hasn't done this already???😀
		
Click to expand...

I haven’t, I’m actually too busy 😳🚚


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## Fish (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			My NHS Responder alarm went off when HID was cooking tee, bloddy hell its loud.
		
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AmandaJR said:



			I did the test thing and it is loud. Not had any genuine calls though - was yours one?
		
Click to expand...

What are these?

Are you volunteers for certain NHS things? If so, what range of things does it cover?


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2020)

Fish said:



			What are these?

Are you volunteers for certain NHS things? If so, what range of things does it cover?
		
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Number of things you can volunteer for bit of a hold on things at the moment as they have to check volunteers out. I got cleared at the weekend possibly as I'm CRB checked but not a necessity.

https://www.goodsamapp.org/NHS


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So your saying that the patients in figures given at a national press conference are wrong.
		
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No! *I'm not saying it*! But 'the National Press' is! As reported in....the National Press!
Are you trying to make some sort of point?


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## backwoodsman (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Number of things you can volunteer for bit of a hold on things at the moment as they have to check volunteers out. I got cleared at the weekend possibly as* I'm CRB checked* but not a necessity.

https://www.goodsamapp.org/NHS

Click to expand...

Showing your age there, squire. 

(It's a good few years since anyone was CRB checked - and this lockdown lark is bringing out the pedant in us all  )


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Showing your age there, squire.

(It's a good few years since anyone was CRB checked - and this lockdown lark is bringing out the pedant in us all  )
		
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What ever it is , I have to have it for my volunteer work with military charities.


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			No! *I'm not saying it*! But 'the National Press' is! As reported in....the National Press!
Are you trying to make some sort of point?
		
Click to expand...

No point, I'm just going on the figures which were displayed on the daily brief which show that new cases was down which was part of the discussion at the time. You seem to think those figures are wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Accused by who, I've watched them all and they are continued to be asked the same questions that have been answered. Just because they don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't  dealt with.
		
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That was the widespread accusation particularly after the last Alok Sharma briefing - and so the format was changed for when Hancock returned and follow up questions were allowed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Been answered god knows how many times on the BBC, perhaps she should watch her own employers channel.
		
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So is it Raab or not? He seems determined to not just say ‘Yes - I make the final call’. 

That is surely and simply why he was asked multiple times.  Surely it matters that we know. Just say Yes - because though I may not have any time at all for his politics I will support him at the moment as the person who has the difficult final say on covid matters.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 8, 2020)

I was in a social distancing queue outside Tesco’s yesterday, lines on the pavement to ensure 2m apart. 
There was a bloke 3 down in the queue vaping and I could smell it, then the thought hit home that what I was breathing had been in his lungs.

You could tell that lots of other people in the queue were thinking the same thing.

Is 2m enough, especially downwind? 🤔


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## Leftitshort (Apr 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was in a social distancing queue outside Tesco’s yesterday, lines on the pavement to ensure 2m apart.
There was a bloke 3 down in the queue vaping and I could smell it, then the thought hit home that what I was breathing had been in his lungs.

You could tell that lots of other people in the queue were thinking the same thing.

Is 2m enough, especially downwind? 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Vaping is horrible at the best of time. I hate having to walk through a cloud of someone else’s cherry flavoured lung vapour. Did anyone say anything? Or just suffer in silence in the true British way ?


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 8, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Vaping is horrible at the best of time. I hate having to walk through a cloud of someone else’s cherry flavoured lung vapour. Did anyone say anything? Or just suffer in silence in the true British way ?
		
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jobr1850 said:



			100% its not.

You should have challenged him, his actions are totally wrong.
		
Click to expand...

it’s not so much the vaping itself (which I don’t like) , but it illustrated how far breath can travel, I was about 6 or 7 meters from the bloke.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			it’s not so much the vaping itself (which I don’t like) , but it illustrated how far breath can travel, I was about 6 or 7 meters from the bloke.
		
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Good point. Is more than 2 metres practical? Maybe compulsory face masks? But I read somewhere their impact in minimal?


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## Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So is it Raab or not? He seems determined to not just say ‘Yes - I make the final call’.

That is surely and simply why he was asked multiple times.  Surely it matters that we know. Just say Yes - because though I may not have any time at all for his politics I will support him at the moment as the person who has the difficult final say on covid matters.
		
Click to expand...

Do you actually listen to what's said or just hear what you want to hear. Its been answered many times in our unwritten constitution he is not categorically in charge regardless of where he is that remains Boris. However if Boris becomes unable to literally do anything it will be a cabinet decision not a Raab decision that gets made and he will merely be the spokes person on behalf of the cabinet decision.

It was answered several times clearly but clearly its not what you wanted to hear.


----------



## Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			it’s not so much the vaping itself (which I don’t like) , but it illustrated how far breath can travel, I was about 6 or 7 meters from the bloke.
		
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Biggest worry for me in the vaping would be as its moisture based that is more you could take into the lungs than merely any breath in the air. 

Should simply be banned in all public places and gatherings including queues.


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## Dando (Apr 8, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Chatham roads quiet as even

Do you actually listen to what's said or just hear what you want to hear. Its been answered many times in our unwritten constitution he is not categorically in charge regardless of where he is that remains Boris. However if Boris becomes unable to literally do anything it will be a cabinet decision not a Raab decision that gets made and he will merely be the spokes person in behalf of the cabinet decision.

It was answered several times clearly but clearly its not what you wanted to hear.
		
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You know he only hears what he wants too!

Maybe he’ll believe it if his barber tells him 😂🤣


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## Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

Dando said:



			You know he only hears what he wants too!

Maybe he’ll believe it if his barber tells him 😂🤣
		
Click to expand...

Hope its not an Italian barber 😳


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## DRW (Apr 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			it’s not so much the vaping itself (which I don’t like) , but it illustrated how far breath can travel, I was about 6 or 7 meters from the bloke.
		
Click to expand...

I read about tests that had been undertaken on the 'aerosol' transmission and half lifes of the virus. Its conclusion was yes it does float and travel in addition to surface & droplets from coughing etc, but cant find the link now.

Me personally I don't live by the 2m rule, especially in confined spaces or if downwind or outside etc. I've got the daily post in quarantine, why bother taking the risk I suppose is my view. 

But a couple of articles about it :-

https://www.livescience.com/covid19-coronavirus-transmission-through-speech.html
https://www.livescience.com/how-covid-19-spreads-transmission-routes.html
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00974-w


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## Orikoru (Apr 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was in a social distancing queue outside Tesco’s yesterday, lines on the pavement to ensure 2m apart.
There was a bloke 3 down in the queue vaping and I could smell it, then the thought hit home that what I was breathing had been in his lungs.

You could tell that lots of other people in the queue were thinking the same thing.

Is 2m enough, especially downwind? 🤔
		
Click to expand...

I could be wrong here as I'm no doctor but I thought that they said it's _not _airborne - i.e. you can't just breathe in the virus and catch it that way. You catch it by touching something an infected person has touched, or if they cough or sneeze and an actual droplet lands on you. So both those reasons are why the 2m distance was put in place.

Still, I hate the smell of those bloody vape things anyway! The only good thing about them is that they've helped my wife quit smoking. Some of the cinnamon, bubblegum etc smells that come out of them are revolting though.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Apr 8, 2020)

MIT have done tests to show a cough can produce air projection of 6m and a sneeze can produce air projection of 8.
2 m is insufficient  but probably all thats practicalfor modern structures and places.
And yes, a cough or sneeze can transmit it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 8, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I could be wrong here as I'm no doctor but I thought that they said it's _not _airborne - i.e. you can't just breathe in the virus and catch it that way. You catch it by touching something an infected person has touched, or if they cough or sneeze and an actual droplet lands on you. So both those reasons are why the 2m distance was put in place.

Still, I hate the smell of those bloody vape things anyway! The only good thing about them is that they've helped my wife quit smoking. Some of the cinnamon, bubblegum etc smells that come out of them are revolting though.
		
Click to expand...

This is a point that really needs clarification. It seems beyond doubt that *droplets* from a cough or sneeze transmit the virus. 
Does breathing the same air as has been expelled by others transmit the virus.
IOW, does ordinary expelled air carry a droplet?  Or not?

Opinions from us aren't going to determine me to think breath is safe.
Does anyone know where the medical experts have pronounced on this?


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## Orikoru (Apr 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This is a point that really needs clarification. It seems beyond doubt that *droplets* from a cough or sneeze transmit the virus.
Does breathing the same air as has been expelled by others transmit the virus.
IOW, does ordinary expelled air carry a droplet?  Or not?

Opinions from us aren't going to determine me to think breath is safe.
Does anyone know where the medical experts have pronounced on this?
		
Click to expand...

Well this is what I was saying - I think them imposing the 2m distance implies that you can't or are very unlikely to catch it simply by breathing air that has been in infected lungs. I suppose there are microscopic droplets in breath, but the droplets from a sneeze or cough are more sizeable.


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## DRW (Apr 8, 2020)

Found the link, here are the tests and results of aerosol and half lifes that I posted about :-

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973

An interesting read if you are into that kind of stuff and conclusion is it remains viable for more than a few hours in air in a lab experiment.

IIRC scientists can not agree on if flu is spread in the air still, after all these years, so take it as you deem fit.

EDIT https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.23.20039446v2


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## Robster59 (Apr 8, 2020)

My google maps timeline is really boring.


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## Beezerk (Apr 8, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Or just suffer in silence in the true British way ?
		
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I imagine the fella would have replied in the true British way and threatened to knock you out if you challenged him.


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No point, I'm just going on the figures which were displayed on the daily brief which show that new cases was down which was part of the discussion at the time. You seem to think those figures are wrong.
		
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Did you read the link in my (original) post? I suspect not - as it explains the issue!


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## Leftitshort (Apr 8, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I imagine the fella would have replied in the true British way and threatened to knock you out if you challenged him.
		
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What if you asked him to stop breathing on me. Doubt it


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## bobmac (Apr 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Did you read the link in my (original) post? I suspect not - as it explains the issue!
		
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You mean the link that says and I quote.............

''Nevertheless, there are some early promising signs the virus's spread is slowing, as *new confirmed cases fell from 4,450 to 3,802* between Friday and Monday''


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You mean the link that says and I quote.............

''Nevertheless, there are some early promising signs the virus's spread is slowing, as *new confirmed cases fell from 4,450 to 3,802* between Friday and Monday''
		
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Did you read (and absorb) the entire article? Or did you simply search for a line to quote?!


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2020)

Fish said:



			What are these?

Are you volunteers for certain NHS things? If so, what range of things does it cover?
		
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I signed up for all the options (driving, calling, delivering, patient travel etc) but haven't had a call yet despite being on call for 60 hours. They did say it was a soft roll out.


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## Leftitshort (Apr 8, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I signed up for all the options (driving, calling, delivering, patient travel etc) but haven't had a call yet despite being on call for 60 hours. They did say it was a soft roll out.
		
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I did also. They only wanted 250k, they got 1m. Oversubscribed, ironically vs the real NHS.


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## garyinderry (Apr 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You mean the link that says and I quote.............

''Nevertheless, there are some early promising signs the virus's spread is slowing, as *new confirmed cases fell from 4,450 to 3,802* between Friday and Monday''
		
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Its promising but they are only hospital cases. The virus is still live and well in society. 

I really have no idea how we can get back to a normal way of life as it can only spike again once restrictions are softened.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Do you actually listen to what's said or just hear what you want to hear. Its been answered many times in our unwritten constitution he is not categorically in charge regardless of where he is that remains Boris. However if Boris becomes unable to literally do anything it will be a cabinet decision not a Raab decision that gets made and he will merely be the spokes person on behalf of the cabinet decision.

It was answered several times clearly but clearly its not what you wanted to hear.
		
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What is it that you think I wanted to hear?  Because I haven't a scoobies if you think it's somehow political...

Well I'll tell you - I just wanted to hear who is in charge.  Someone has to be.  Otherwise on a wider point someone has to have access to the nuclear codes.  So someone MUST have the final say on any matter where there is disagreement in the cabinet.  If it's Raab then fine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Was at our local supermarket for a tiny shop yesterday evening.  Only one per couple allowed in.  So I stood outside as Mrs Hogie went in. 

Another couple arrived and he went in and she stood outside 3-4m from me.  Nobody else about. 

But every time someone came up to the doors they stopped and tried to work out whether to queue behind me or the girl.  The security fella had to keep telling folks that we weren't queuing, that they could go straight in.

Just love how Brits - at least those in our town - will see folk standing outside a shop or whatever (even just two of us 3-4m apart) and try and find a queue to stand in...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

One of my cats sneezed this morning - should I be concerned...


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## User62651 (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is it that you think I wanted to hear?  Because I haven't a scoobies if you think it's somehow political...

Well I'll tell you - I just wanted to hear who is in charge.  Someone has to be.  Otherwise on a wider point someone has to have access to the nuclear codes.  So someone MUST have the final say on any matter where there is disagreement in the cabinet.  If it's Raab then fine.
		
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Not unreasonable. They did not establish this matter clearly, just like who are essential workers, how long you should exercise for, how far is local in terms of driving to exercise, how ill the PM really was/is etc.
Clarity please.


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## pendodave (Apr 8, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Its promising but they are only hospital cases. The virus is still live and well in society.

I really have no idea how we can get back to a normal way of life as it can only spike again once restrictions are softened.
		
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Hopefully, as time passes, the combined experience of the world's healthcare systems will work on best practice to the extent that the survival rates improve.
Maybe we'll remember that almost all of us won't actually die of it, and that a lot more of us will die of other preventable diseases caused by our existing lifestyle choices that we already do nothing about whatsoever...


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## drdel (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was at our local supermarket for a tiny shop yesterday evening.  Only one per couple allowed in.  So I stood outside as Mrs Hogie went in.

Another couple arrived and he went in and she stood outside 3-4m from me.  Nobody else about.

But every time someone came up to the doors they stopped and tried to work out whether to queue behind me or the girl.  The security fella had to keep telling folks that we weren't queuing, that they could go straight in.

Just love how Brits - at least those in our town - will see folk standing outside a shop or whatever (even just two of us 3-4m apart) and try and find a queue to stand in...

Click to expand...

I think you may have complained had they done otherwise.

Vets recommend keeping cats inside (not exactly realistic but we can try).


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## Slab (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Was at our local supermarket for a tiny shop yesterday evening.*  Only one per couple allowed in.  So I stood outside as Mrs Hogie went in.

Another couple arrived and he went in and she stood outside 3-4m from me.  Nobody else about.

But every time someone came up to the doors they stopped and tried to work out whether to queue behind me or the girl.  The security fella had to keep telling folks that we weren't queuing, that they could go straight in.

Just love how Brits - at least those in our town - will see folk standing outside a shop or whatever (even just two of us 3-4m apart) and try and find a queue to stand in...

Click to expand...


Can I ask... Who was in charge of the shop? I mean someone has to be!



Sorry couldn't resist


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## Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is it that you think I wanted to hear?  Because I haven't a scoobies if you think it's somehow political...

Well I'll tell you - I just wanted to hear who is in charge.  Someone has to be.  Otherwise on a wider point someone has to have access to the nuclear codes.  So someone MUST have the final say on any matter where there is disagreement in the cabinet.  If it's Raab then fine.
		
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Nobody can tell you what you wanted to hear but we do know you never accept the true answer unless it suits your political agenda.

They answered who was in charge and that was Boris! Our constitution doesn't allow for someone else to be in charge all the while we still have a live serving Prime Minister.

In event he becomes unable to do anything the cabinet vote on it and Raab is merely the mouth piece, if there's a difference of opinion it becomes like any other vote majority carries. How many times do you want to be told the exact asnwer but still want to hear something differentm. It was clear to hear unless you decide to take your own spin on it as you seemingly do.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm similar.

Been on call for 88 hours right now and not heard anything.
		
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Glad it's not just me. The message when you sign onto duty is a bit confusing though "Please note if you are registered under GoodSAM, this option will not have any effects. Please enter the resource code below if you are allocated any resources, otherwise leave blank".

From there I'm just clicking "turn on" and assume the message is for those who are normally "on call" on the app prior to the NHS call for volunteers?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I get the impression that that the App is originally for "proper" emergency responders, eg it asks you if you have a defibrillator.
I was a bit confused initially, I didn't mind doing a bit of shopping or a phone call but treating a cardiac arrest wasn't what I had in mind...

After a couple more days I received confirmation of my ID check, then I could narrow down my preferences as to what to be called out for.

Have you reached that 2nd stage yet?
		
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I think so? Email saying Congrats and Welcome to the Community? Then to download the app? Can't recall narrowing down preferences although probably just left them as "anything"!


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The screenshot is from the email I received.
		
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Yes got that one too. I can only assume we haven't been needed. I am in a rural area and the "Around Me" shows a lot of green runner figures so assume we're pretty well supplied!


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2020)

Traminator said:



			No I just checked, that's the initial email you get to acknowledge you signing up.
I received that on 27 Mar, then the confirmation that I was good to go on 3 Apr.
		
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Yep. Got mine on the 3rd too - thanks!


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Did you read the link in my (original) post? I suspect not - as it explains the issue!
		
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I go off the Health England site https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ae5dda8f86814ae99dde905d2a9070ae


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I signed up for all the options (driving, calling, delivering, patient travel etc) but haven't had a call yet despite being on call for 60 hours. They did say it was a soft roll out.
		
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Not sure what it's like in your area but there's about 20 responders showing up within a mile of me, combined with all the community organizations that have been set up I'm not sure it's going to be to busy. The chemist runs are a pain as we just have to join the normal queue but hey ho it's not as if I have other things to do.


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is it that you think I wanted to hear?  Because I haven't a scoobies if you think it's somehow political...

Well I'll tell you - I just wanted to hear who is in charge.  Someone has to be.  Otherwise on a wider point someone has to have access to the nuclear codes.  So someone MUST have the final say on any matter where there is disagreement in the cabinet.  If it's Raab then fine.
		
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FFS if we start throwing nukes about the virus is the least of your worries as we aren't into pre-emptive strikes in this country it means something is on its way and I'm quite happy if the janitor presses the button.


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## bobmac (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I go off the Health England site https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ae5dda8f86814ae99dde905d2a9070ae

Click to expand...

But Mr pedantic will argue that less new cases doesn't necessarily mean less people in hospital (it does in my opinion)
He likes to argue like that


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			But Mr pedantic will argue that less new cases doesn't necessarily mean less people in hospital (it does in my opinion)
He likes to argue like that
		
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I'm used to it, he's been my teacher for the last three years. He is good company on the golf course - no matter what colour socks he wears


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

One of our very close friends has been confirmed positive - she's a midwife at the Whittington and has been off-work and self-isolating for about ten days.  She was tested on Monday...took a while but at least she has been tested.  Of course we worry for her husband - though he has been keeping his distance and taking otehr precautions there is obviously a huge chance that he might also have contracted it.

As she is one of over a dozen very close friends of my wife (and most of myself also) who are nurses/midwives on the front line, we are trying to not become too worried for them - but it's difficult.   Prayers...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Slab said:



			Can I ask... Who was in charge of the shop? I mean someone has to be!



Sorry couldn't resist 

Click to expand...

A fella from Brechin...typical Scots - get everywhere in England running the place...and neither could I


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			FFS if we start throwing nukes about the virus is the least of your worries as we aren't into pre-emptive strikes in this country it means something is on its way and I'm quite happy if the janitor presses the button.
		
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Just would like to know that someone is in charge - that there is someone who can pull rank over everyone else in the cabinet if and when they are disagreeing about stuff - or simply to tell them to shut the F up - this is what we are doing!


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just would like to know that someone is in charge - that there is someone who can pull rank over everyone else in the cabinet if and when they are disagreeing about stuff - or simply to tell them to shut the F up - this is what we are doing!
		
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I can only presume you didn't listen to the endless repeats on the BBC were it became more than apparent who would take control if there was any serious disagreements OUTSIDE the strategy already AGREED by the cabinet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I can only presume you didn't listen to the endless repeats on the BBC were it became more than apparent who would take control if there was any serious disagreements OUTSIDE the strategy already AGREED by the cabinet.
		
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Who was that then - as I watch every briefing and if Raab said 'Yes - I will be in charge' then I missed it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who was that then - as I watch every briefing and if Raab said 'Yes - I will be in charge' then I missed it.
		
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If you and reporters don't understand what being No 2 in the cabinet means it's not Raabs fault, he doesn't have to say it out loud.


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2020)

3.5 weeks in lockdown and Spain's numbers rise for the second day after 4 days of modest falls. So disappointing.

Is it within close family groups or is it the lockdown isn't proving effective? Certainly there are an increasing numbers of non-compliance being reported, even though fines are rising. A number of Spanish FB pages have complaints of 2nd homes being opened up for Easter.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just would like to know that someone is in charge - that there is someone who can pull rank over everyone else in the cabinet if and when they are disagreeing about stuff - or simply to tell them to shut the F up - this is what we are doing!
		
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So sorry to hear about your close friends Hope they are OK.

Have you ever thought of contacting The PMs Office to ask to check who makes the decision?


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## IainP (Apr 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			3.5 weeks in lockdown and Spain's numbers rise for the second day after 4 days of modest falls. So disappointing.

Is it within close family groups or is it the lockdown isn't proving effective? Certainly there are an increasing numbers of non-compliance being reported, even though fines are rising. A number of Spanish FB pages have complaints of 2nd homes being opened up for Easter.
		
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Agree disappointing. Are you seeing regional trends, i.e. is one now increasing while another that was high decreasing?


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			3.5 weeks in lockdown and Spain's numbers rise for the second day after 4 days of modest falls. So disappointing.

Is it within close family groups or is it the lockdown isn't proving effective? Certainly there are an increasing numbers of non-compliance being reported, even though fines are rising. A number of Spanish FB pages have complaints of 2nd homes being opened up for Easter.
		
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How are new cases into hospital going


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## drdel (Apr 8, 2020)

Using a 4day moving average on the UK deaths is a tad more encouraging than the 'daily' numbers.


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I go off the Health England site https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ae5dda8f86814ae99dde905d2a9070ae

Click to expand...

Which, I believe, is the source the 'experts warning against over-interpreting daily figures' in https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52167016 was stating as 'often subject to reporting delays'!
I suggest you actually read that article (a bit more carefully) before poo-pooing it! The figures from your link for today (786 deaths - an increase) seem to back up the 'reporting delays' suggestion that the article I linked to suggest could be happening!

Now, how are you going to pay back the 5+ minutes of my time you wasted responding to your unnecessary (if you'd properly read the link I posted) post?!


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Which, I believe, is the source the 'experts warning against over-interpreting daily figures' in https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52167016 was stating as 'often subject to reporting delays'!
I suggest you actually read that article (a bit more carefully) before poo-pooing it! The figures from your link for today (678 deaths - an increase) seem to back up the 'reporting delays' suggestion that the article I linked to suggest could be happening!

Now, how are you going to pay back the 5+ minutes of my time you wasted responding to your unnecessary (if you'd properly read the link I posted) post?!
		
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Nice to know your the one who decides which posts are ({<>}) necessary []. We will have to agree to disagree.


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2020)

IainP said:



			Agree disappointing. Are you seeing regional trends, i.e. is one now increasing while another that was high decreasing?
		
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Very much like ripples in a pond, spreading out from hot spots. Sadly, when a new hot spot 'lights up' it becomes the centre for more ripples.



Old Skier said:



			How are new cases into hospital going
		
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The hospitals are swamped with the more serious cases, and hence are seeing the vast majority of the deaths. However, this last week has seen recovered numbers pass fatalities for the first time and those numbers continue to go in the right direction.

Worryingly, hospital staff with it currently runs at 23%. Those that are working are tired and quiet, and Spanish don't do quiet.


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Nice to know your the one who decides which posts are ({<>}) necessary []....
		
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Utter twaddle!

Btw. I've corrected my 'finger trouble' re Tuesday's figures


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Utter twaddle!
		
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Well at least that's only the first time you have twaddled me


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## pendodave (Apr 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			3.5 weeks in lockdown and Spain's numbers rise for the second day after 4 days of modest falls. So disappointing.

Is it within close family groups or is it the lockdown isn't proving effective? Certainly there are an increasing numbers of non-compliance being reported, even though fines are rising. A number of Spanish FB pages have complaints of 2nd homes being opened up for Easter.
		
Click to expand...

I believe research following original Sars was that family groups were the most effective transmitting environment. Any extended family in a single home could take quite a long time for it all to work through.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			So sorry to hear about your close friends Hope they are OK.

Have you ever thought of contacting The PMs Office to ask to check who makes the decision?
		
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Thankyou for your wishes - unfortunately tainted a bit by unnecessary and unfunny jibe...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

Mrs Hogie and I thought Sunak did a good job there in the briefing.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 8, 2020)

IainP said:



			Agree disappointing. Are you seeing regional trends, i.e. is one now increasing while another that was high decreasing?
		
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Regional trends are certainly having an impact on the national aggregates
We see this in Italy and also in Germany (and i think now in France in the south)
However what we also see is periodic jumps in =case numbers and deaths in a region - we see that here in Bergamo
However - the way I see it is that the overall trend may be declining in a two steps forward, one step back kind of way


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## pokerjoke (Apr 8, 2020)

938 sadly passed away today but the bbc news headline was “the prime minister health is improving “.
A bit like Rory leading the Masters by 10 shots but the headlines being Tiger Woods is 15 shots back but just got a birdie.


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## fundy (Apr 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think you may have complained had they done otherwise.

Vets recommend keeping cats inside (not exactly realistic but we can try).
		
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BVA have made a statement about this. Theyve clarified that its only cats from home where someone has the corona virus or is self isolating that should be doing so

https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/news-article/bva-statement-on-cats-and-covid-19/ 

Sadly expect the earlier statement may have some negative effects


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

fundy said:



			BVA have made a statement about this. Theyve clarified that its only cats from home where someone has the corona virus or is self isolating that should be doing so

https://www.bva.co.uk/news-and-blog/news-article/bva-statement-on-cats-and-covid-19/

Sadly expect the earlier statement may have some negative effects 

Click to expand...

As it keeps saying, many dont know they have it so keeping cats at home seems to make sence.


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## fundy (Apr 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			As it keeps saying, many dont know they have it so keeping cats at home seems to make sence.
		
Click to expand...


also tells people not to panic, which sadly looking at social media appears not to be the case


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

fundy said:



			also tells people not to panic, which sadly looking at social media appears not to be the case
		
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No excuse for cat owner not to do the responsible thing.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou for your wishes - unfortunately tainted a bit by unnecessary and unfunny jibe...
		
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Sincere apologies if it was taken in the wrong way. There was no exclamation mark nor emojis.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 8, 2020)

Strange day. Our number of cases coming in has dropped although we're roughly the same number as we've taken a few who are struggling on other wards with breathing like Boris. Think we had 2-3 deaths but all in all very stable which seems way out of kilter with the overall picture, particularly in terms of deaths even if you relate it to the South East alone. Not complaining and if we can continue on such an even keel perhaps it'll bode well for a more widespread picture.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1247894208267956224A wee ray of sunshine amidst all the gloom.


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## IainP (Apr 8, 2020)

Belgium doesn't seem to receive the media attention here, probably because the numbers aren't as large as others. But if you look at relative to population only Spain & Italy are suffering more than them.


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## IainP (Apr 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1247894208267956224A wee ray of sunshine amidst all the gloom.

Click to expand...

Yes, was good to read about that earlier 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-52200015
👍


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Very much like ripples in a pond, spreading out from hot spots. Sadly, when a new hot spot 'lights up' it becomes the centre for more ripples.



The hospitals are swamped with the more serious cases, and hence are seeing the vast majority of the deaths. However, this last week has seen recovered numbers pass fatalities for the first time and those numbers continue to go in the right direction.

Worryingly, hospital staff with it currently runs at 23%. Those that are working are tired and quiet, and Spanish don't do quiet.
		
Click to expand...

Spoke with our son in Madrid re increase. His take was that initially there were 3 not spots, Basque Country, Madrid and Rioja Region.

The schools closed first before Spain went into lockdown and people were still working. This meant that the grandparents were looking after the kids, taking them to the park, having coffee which happens all the time as you know Bri. Swings etc were played upon touched, the kids had the virus for a longer period, did not know, touched swings etc and this made things much worse.


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## Old Skier (Apr 8, 2020)

Convoy of "Travellers" heading into Devon, wonder if they will be turned round. Currently M5 blocked due to one of the caravans overturned.


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## DanFST (Apr 8, 2020)

One of my close friends is a physio, got moved to the an ICU in London. Has just entered ICU himself. This **** is awful. Please stay indoors.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Sincere apologies if it was taken in the wrong way. There was no exclamation mark nor emojis.
		
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OK...sorted...


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## BrianM (Apr 8, 2020)

Well, what a day, positive cases confirmed on rig, one person who I directly work with, getting off tomorrow to self isolate in a hotel, if I haven’t got it, it will be a miracle.


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## Crazyface (Apr 8, 2020)

I know people don't get most of my posts. But please can I ask a question without a barrage of abuse?  Coz I really am not getting this.

How will testing in either form (have got it / have had it) make things better / reduce the amount of infection and spread? 

Just seen this on the news tonight and the correspondant or whatever his title is said most earnestly how Germany had tested the hell out of this and their rate of infection was amazing lower then everywhere else, but did not say why. 

So why?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 8, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I know people don't get most of my posts. But please can I ask a question without a barrage of abuse?  Coz I really am not getting this.

How will testing in either form (have got it / have had it) make things better / reduce the amount of infection and spread?

Just seen this on the news tonight and the correspondant or whatever his title is said most earnestly how Germany had tested the hell out of this and their rate of infection was amazing lower then everywhere else, but did not say why.

So why?
		
Click to expand...

Testing will be useful for key workers (particularly NHS staff) who are currently isolating if they or a family member have symptoms. If they are tested and don't have it they can return to work. If they are tested for antibodies and are shown that they have previously had it they can also return to work.

As for testing large numbers of people and having a lower rate of infection, isn't that just down to statistics? If you test 100000 people and get 5000 positive tests you have an infection rate of 5%. If you do what the UK had been doing and only testing those admitted to hospital you are testing a far lower number of people, say 20000 tested and 5000 positive results is a 25% infection rate. That's why the total number of new cases being recorded each day can't be used for any kind of analysis at the minute. Without testing large numbers of people you have absolutely no idea how high the infection rate is.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 8, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I know people don't get most of my posts. But please can I ask a question without a barrage of abuse?  Coz I really am not getting this.

How will testing in either form (have got it / have had it) make things better / reduce the amount of infection and spread?

Just seen this on the news tonight and the correspondant or whatever his title is said most earnestly how Germany had tested the hell out of this and their rate of infection was amazing lower then everywhere else, but did not say why.

So why?
		
Click to expand...

To answer your first question, if you post what appears to be a barrage of abuse is it a huge surprise when you get a barrage of abuse in response?

As to Germany, if you test more than most nations, you will catch more people with few or no symptoms.  Let's say 10% of every population has it.  If Germany tests everyone regardless of symptoms, they will have a 10% infection rate.  If the UK only tests those with Covid 19 symptoms then it will eliminate those who are not infected from testing which will raise the rate of infection amongst those tested above 10%.

Their test also looks for signs that a person is about to go into decline; if they are, they get them into hospital to treat them proactively, thus increasing the survival rate.  Using the test to confirm the presence of Covid 19 will mean that potentially the patient is already up  creek without a paddle & reactive treatment may not be sufficient to save them.


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## IainP (Apr 8, 2020)

Based on the statistics being shared it suggests there is more to it than just numbers of tests.
Switzerland shows more tests relative to population size than Germany but differing outcomes.

I think I read Germany tested hard early (suggestion that a high number of younger folk picked it up at ski resorts), and early tracing helped with early isolation to slow the initial spread.


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## Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

Not Covid-19 per se but the lockdown has massively effected Mrs Wolf last couple of days being unable to go anywhere has really started to get to her lots of tears this evening just wanting it over to be able to get back to a normal semblance of life, see family, see my little ones and just see everyone being able to live a normal life. 

Shes had me trawling the Internet for a PS4 or Xbox One on offer so she can join in with the kids and play some online games with them.l for some interaction with them. I have to admit I had taken for granted how close she is to my kids as their step mum she does so much with them when they're here but I was so focused in me missing them I hadn't thought how she felt not seeing them, today has proved how gutted she is. I guess I'll end up buying a console from somewhere next couple of days just so she can feel like she's interacting with them a bit more whilst I'm working.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 8, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Not Covid-19 per se but the lockdown has massively effected Mrs Wolf last couple of days being unable to go anywhere has really started to get to her lots of tears this evening just wanting it over to be able to get back to a normal semblance of life, see family, see my little ones and just see everyone being able to live a normal life.

Shes had me trawling the Internet for a PS4 or Xbox One on offer so she can join in with the kids and play some online games with them.l for some interaction with them. I have to admit I had taken for granted how close she is to my kids as their step mum she does so much with them when they're here but I was so focused in me missing them I hadn't thought how she felt not seeing them, today has proved how gutted she is. I guess I'll end up buying a console from somewhere next couple of days just so she can feel like she's interacting with them a bit more whilst I'm working.
		
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Might be an obvious question but does she do Facetime with them?


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## Wolf (Apr 8, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			Might be an obvious question but does she do Facetime with them?
		
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Yeah she has been but she feels like she's still missing out and wants to have some fun interaction as well as just seeing them. Think that's what caused it as she was on Facetime with the girls today and they were playing a game on a console at their mums and said they wish she could play to. Her and my youngest are really close as known her since she was a mere 2 year old and was the youngest asked if she could play to 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## GB72 (Apr 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Not Covid-19 per se but the lockdown has massively effected Mrs Wolf last couple of days being unable to go anywhere has really started to get to her lots of tears this evening just wanting it over to be able to get back to a normal semblance of life, see family, see my little ones and just see everyone being able to live a normal life. 

Shes had me trawling the Internet for a PS4 or Xbox One on offer so she can join in with the kids and play some online games with them.l for some interaction with them. I have to admit I had taken for granted how close she is to my kids as their step mum she does so much with them when they're here but I was so focused in me missing them I hadn't thought how she felt not seeing them, today has proved how gutted she is. I guess I'll end up buying a console from somewhere next couple of days just so she can feel like she's interacting with them a bit more whilst I'm working.
		
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Mate, not sure how to work this logistically with lockdown etc but I may have an old Xbox one you could have as I upgraded mine to an X about a year ago. If it helps your other half cope, it is going to a good home. Not looking for money or anything. You know I am relatively local


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## Golfmmad (Apr 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Yeah she has been but she feels like she's still missing out and wants to have some fun interaction as well as just seeing them. Think that's what caused it as she was on Facetime with the girls today and they were playing a game on a console at their mums and said they wish she could play to. Her and my youngest are really close as known her since she was a mere 2 year old and was the youngest asked if she could play to 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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I can understand how she must feel as I have 2 stepdaughters who are older and have their own children. So i have 4 grand children and miss them terribly, even though one step daughter lives only 5 minutes down the road.
Its nice to hear that she gets so well with your kids as often thats unfortunately not always the case.

So we're both lucky from that point of view.


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## Wolf (Apr 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Mate, not sure how to work this logistically with lockdown etc but I may have an old Xbox one you could have as I upgraded mine to an X about a year ago. If it helps your other half cope, it is going to a good home. Not looking for money or anything. You know I am relatively local
		
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That sir is a very kind offer. If I can work out the logistics I will certainly be interested in taking that offer up, I'd have to give you something for it though.


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## Wolf (Apr 9, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			I can understand how she must feel as I have 2 stepdaughters who are older and have their own children. So i have 4 grand children and miss them terribly, even though one step daughter lives only 5 minutes down the road.
Its nice to hear that she gets so well with your kids as often thats unfortunately not always the case.

So we're both lucky from that point of view. 

Click to expand...

I agree it makes us both very lucky indeed, they have a great relationship and that makes it all that much more harder right now seeing her upset as well.


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## GB72 (Apr 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That sir is a very kind offer. If I can work out the logistics I will certainly be interested in taking that offer up, I'd have to give you something for it though.
		
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Nope will not accept a thing. At that stage in my life where a bit if good karma is worth everything. Cannot remember exactly where you are but I am just outside Grantham but in Melton 2-3 days a week at the moment if easier. Will check it works and factory reset it over the Easter weekend and we can work on a plan from there


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## Italian outcast (Apr 9, 2020)

IainP said:



			Belgium doesn't seem to receive the media attention here, probably because the numbers aren't as large as others. But if you look at relative to population only Spain & Italy are suffering more than them.
		
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I work with people there on a daily basis - they are well aware how serious it is for them


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I know people don't get most of my posts. But please can I ask a question without a barrage of abuse?  Coz I really am not getting this.

How will testing in either form (have got it / have had it) make things better / reduce the amount of infection and spread? 

Just seen this on the news tonight and the correspondant or whatever his title is said most earnestly how Germany had tested the hell out of this and their rate of infection was amazing lower then everywhere else, but did not say why. 

So why?
		
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Probably mentioned in all other answers.  But on antibody testing in general.  Mass antibody testing will tell us how many of us have had the virus.  This will enable decisions to be made on relaxation of constraints on movement etc. Taking to an extreme - if mass  antibody testing shows that, say, 90% of us have already had the virus - then the risk of a severe and difficult to control further outbreak will be very low.  We’ve mostly all had it.  If mass antibody testing shows only 10% have had it then still too soon to lift restrictions as risk of further outbreak too high.

It’s when the % is in between that the decision is difficult - which it will be.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 9, 2020)

DanFST said:



			One of my close friends is a physio, got moved to the an ICU in London. Has just entered ICU himself. This **** is awful. Please stay indoors.
		
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This is one of my issues with this. Doctors and nurses seem to get all of the press attention, but there's all sorts of other staff being exposed to this every minute of every day. 

There's porters, nursing assistants, cleaners, ward clerks who don't earn very much at all. Then there's the physios and radiographers etc.

After all this is done I hope we realise who kept us all going in these troubling times. All those delivery drivers and supermarket workers etc. Heck even the bin men, but not seen much of them lately 😁.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			This is one of my issues with this. Doctors and nurses seem to get all of the press attention, but there's all sorts of other staff being exposed to this every minute of every day.

There's porters, nursing assistants, cleaners, ward clerks who don't earn very much at all. Then there's the physios and radiographers etc.

After all this is done I hope we realise who kept us all going in these troubling times. All those delivery drivers and supermarket workers etc. Heck even the bin men, but not seen much of them lately 😁.
		
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Agree 100%

It is actually the housekeeping staff who I feel sorriest for. Many don't have English as a first language and they don't seem to be getting clear instructions on what masks to wear in which areas, when they need PPE etc and are working tirelessly and being exposed. At least our physios and radiographers have a degree of medical knowledge and so are more adept at assessing when they need full PPE or can use mask and gloves. 

Again shop workers are putting themselves at risk dealing with the public everyday and are doing a great job in difficult situations. We are still getting our regular bin collections every Monday although they are all in gloves and masks


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## Wolf (Apr 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Nope will not accept a thing. At that stage in my life where a bit if good karma is worth everything. Cannot remember exactly where you are but I am just outside Grantham but in Melton 2-3 days a week at the moment if easier. Will check it works and factory reset it over the Easter weekend and we can work on a plan from there
		
Click to expand...

Then I shall find a way to pass on a bit that good Karma myself by doing something for others as well. Thats amazingly kind of you. I'm in Billinghay so not far away at all, I'll work out the logistics over the weekend and drop you msg. Really kind of you GB.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

I get the lockdown may get worse, I get we are being asked to do our bit, then why are we still allowing Planes full of people to arrive in this Country from all over the World unchecked.

Even the ones bringing our own back are not being checked properly and are being advised to self isolate for 2 weeks, surely any passengers, from arriving from overseas, should be tested either before they depart or here before they leave the airport.

A lot of these people could easily be leaving the airports on public transport and spreading this!


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## Slime (Apr 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That sir is a very kind offer. If I can work out the logistics I will certainly be interested in taking that offer up, *I'd have to give you something for it though.*

Click to expand...




GB72 said:



*Nope will not accept a thing.* At that stage in my life where a bit if *good karma is worth everything.* Cannot remember exactly where you are but I am just outside Grantham but in Melton 2-3 days a week at the moment if easier. Will check it works and factory reset it over the Easter weekend and we can work on a plan from there
		
Click to expand...




Wolf said:



*Then I shall find a way to pass on a bit that good Karma *myself by doing something for others as well. *That's amazingly kind of you.* I'm in Billinghay so not far away at all, I'll work out the logistics over the weekend and drop you msg. Really kind of you GB.
		
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............................... and this is why I love this forum.
Good on you both.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Well said Emily Maitlis:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248021250267656192


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## Mudball (Apr 9, 2020)

A Retired copper friend has been asked to report back for a 6 month stint ...


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## DRW (Apr 9, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well, what a day, positive cases confirmed on rig, one person who I directly work with, getting off tomorrow to self isolate in a hotel, if I haven’t got it, it will be a miracle.
		
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Hoping for the best for you and the person/anyone else who already has it.

Must be worrying times.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



			A Retired copper friend has been asked to report back for a 6 month stint ...
		
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Brother-in-law has been retired 18 years, he's 67 in 3 days time. He's received a letter asking if he'll go back in.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 9, 2020)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-gatherings-were-rocket-fuel-for-coronavirus
This is an interesting article and gives credence to the effect quick bulk testing alongside contact tracing (NHS app) can help slow the virus down and return us to a semblance of normality. 
Our family structures of living apart from our elderly relatives (as a general rule) compared to countries like Spain and Italy my also be helping us in flattening the curve.


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## Mudball (Apr 9, 2020)

I should read up on this.. but haven’t yet. But how is mass testing (on its own) going to slow/unlock this puzzle?  I am assuming it is testing followed by isolation rather than testing-testing


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## drdel (Apr 9, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-gatherings-were-rocket-fuel-for-coronavirus
This is an interesting article and gives credence to the effect quick bulk testing alongside contact tracing (NHS app) can help slow the virus down and return us to a semblance of normality.
Our family structures of living apart from our elderly relatives (as a general rule) compared to countries like Spain and Italy my also be helping us in flattening the curve.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the antibody tests are not as reliable as the makers suggest. Deploying those would be a disaster


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Brother-in-law has been retired 18 years, he's 67 in 3 days time. He's received a letter asking if he'll go back in.
		
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Which Force Brian?


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Which Force Brian?
		
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Cleveland. Retired Chief Insp. Following his 'original' retirement he worked civvie side until this time last year, latterly heading up the restorative justice team - victims meeting criminals. Went in at 18 and retired at 48.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Then I shall find a way to pass on a bit that good Karma myself by doing something for others as well. Thats amazingly kind of you. I'm in Billinghay so not far away at all, I'll work out the logistics over the weekend and drop you msg. Really kind of you GB.
		
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Great stuff lads.
My mum always said to me “ if you are able to help someone then just do it”
Have always remembered that.
Hope this helps her.
Mine is the same with the grandkids, and your right FaceTime just seems to make it worse.
Think she can see what she’s missing.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I get the lockdown may get worse, I get we are being asked to do our bit, then why are we still allowing Planes full of people to arrive in this Country from all over the World unchecked.

Even the ones bringing our own back are not being checked properly and are being advised to self isolate for 2 weeks, surely any passengers, from arriving from overseas, should be tested either before they depart or here before they leave the airport.

A lot of these people could easily be leaving the airports on public transport and spreading this!

Click to expand...

Yes it dosnt seem to make sense.


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## huds1475 (Apr 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am assuming it is testing followed by isolation rather than testing-testing
		
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That's my understanding. Effectively starve it of opportunities to spread.

A more advanced / informed version of current lock down.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately the antibody tests are not as reliable as the makers suggest. Deploying those would be a disaster
		
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It's not the antigen test it's the PCR test that helps in this scenario


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## BrianM (Apr 9, 2020)

DRW said:



			Hoping for the best for you and the person/anyone else who already has it.

Must be worrying times.
		
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Showing some mild symptoms, wheezy cough mainly, we are supposed to be getting tested (privately).
Had 5 people airlifted on the ‘Corona’ helicopter now.
We are down manning to essential personnel only.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 9, 2020)

Swings and Roundabouts today, we have been told the client will not be accepting Covid-19 as a reason for the job to be delayed. (Local council!) so I’ve had to get the lads in....but we have also found that the 24Hr Beigel Shop in Brick Lane is open! Happy days!😋


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## huds1475 (Apr 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I should read up on this.. but haven’t yet. But how is mass testing (on its own) going to slow/unlock this puzzle?  I am assuming it is testing followed by isolation rather than testing-testing
		
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Found the summary of 4 options here a good quick access guide.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...down-end-answering-questions-exit-strategies/


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## NearHull (Apr 9, 2020)

Wolf

Ive been interacting with my grandson using Houseparty App and playing pictionary.  It is one of the games included within the app. (Also been reading his bedtime stories - he’s six)


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## Billysboots (Apr 9, 2020)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

And the above is being replicated across the UK. The continuing disregard for public safety by an admitted minority is staggering.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 9, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Swings and Roundabouts today, we have been told the client will not be accepting Covid-19 as a reason for the job to be delayed. (Local council!) so I’ve had to get the lads in....but we have also found that the 24Hr Beigel Shop in Brick Lane is open! Happy days!😋
		
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No way Is that place open?!!! Whenever I go on nights the queue is mental ... I mean moves quick but social distancing I think not lol but then cash in hand there 100% those workers wouldn't get furlonged lol 

Last time I went I got flashed by a camera aswell.. 26 .. forgot the Holloway road was 20 .. was 4am ..

Lucky for me the ticket never came! Phew


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## DRW (Apr 9, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Showing some mild symptoms, wheezy cough mainly, we are supposed to be getting tested (privately).
Had 5 people airlifted on the ‘Corona’ helicopter now.
We are down manning to essential personnel only.
		
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Oh man, that doesn't sound great.

Fingers crossed its just a bit of a cold or the mildest co19.


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## Mudball (Apr 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

And the above is being replicated across the UK. The continuing disregard for public safety by an admitted minority is staggering.
		
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So far only 11 comments on the BBC website.  i want to see this story on the Scum or DailyHate website as they will blame it on immigrants, students and certain religious groups.


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## Billysboots (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Brother-in-law has been retired 18 years, he's 67 in 3 days time. He's received a letter asking if he'll go back in.
		
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There must be an admin error there, surely?!

Most Forces are limiting such requests to those who retired in the last five years.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

I take it this if this is true it’s a disgrace!! 80% furlough, questions over Premier League footballers, Banks not playing the game to help business’s, but this lot! 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-000-each-for-home-working-expenses-w0h5sx99l


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I take it this if this is true it’s a disgrace!! 80% furlough, questions over Premier League footballers, Banks not playing the game to help business’s, but this lot! 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-000-each-for-home-working-expenses-w0h5sx99l

Click to expand...

If they are genuine expenses, and they will be checked, then it is no difference to any company employee that is incurring extra costs at home and will get reimbursed. They can not just pocket the extra money.

I can not read the whole article but unless there are specific examples of abuses it is something I think is fair.

I know it is good to vent about MP's but they are not always at fault.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			This is one of my issues with this. Doctors and nurses seem to get all of the press attention, but there's all sorts of other staff being exposed to this every minute of every day.

There's porters, nursing assistants, cleaners, ward clerks who don't earn very much at all. Then there's the physios and radiographers etc.

After all this is done I hope we realise who kept us all going in these troubling times. All those delivery drivers and supermarket workers etc. Heck even the bin men, but not seen much of them lately 😁.
		
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that when people are praising the great work the NHS do they include these workers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If they are genuine expenses, and they will be checked, then it is no difference to any company employee that is incurring extra costs at home and will get reimbursed. They can not just pocket the extra money.

I can not read the whole article but unless there are specific examples of abuses it is something I think is fair.

I know it is good to vent about MP's but they are not always at fault.
		
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Seriously! It’s to cover heating, electricity, printer ink etc, it’s on top if the £26,000 they are already entitled to claim, and they’ve relaxed the rules on the evidence needed to claim it!


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## HowlingGale (Apr 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm pretty sure that when people are praising the great work the NHS do they include these workers.
		
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Really hope so. It's just when they interview them it's always doctors or nurses. It's never wee Sadie, the cleaner.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously! It’s to cover heating, electricity, printer ink etc, it’s on top if the £26,000 they are already entitled to claim, and they’ve relaxed the rules on the evidence needed to claim it!
		
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Disgusting, they already get enough to cover staff and admin. Can all those having to stay at home claim heating and lighting back. On the other hand it does say "they can claim" and hopefully those with morals (I know) will decline. I'll be sending an email to mine to see her take on it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Seriously! It’s to cover heating, electricity, printer ink etc, it’s on top if the £26,000 they are already entitled to claim, and they’ve relaxed the rules on the evidence needed to claim it!
		
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MP's and staff would normally be operating out of an office, whether at Wetsminster or in their constituency. Now they are doing the same work from home. That means short term, new expenses that they are entitled to claim for. 

Current expenses have to be identified not just pocketed. There really are expenses incurred in running a consituency office x 2 and it is only fair that they are covered. They operate for our benefit after all.

Where I do agree with you is that there should be no relaxation of evidence. No receipt, no expenses. Every company I have worked for operates the same way. The system is usually best operated by a scary battle axe


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2020)

And the award for Scum of the Year currently rests with these 2;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-52227363

Hopefully a healthy custodial sentence will follow if convicted.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			There must be an admin error there, surely?!

Most Forces are limiting such requests to those who retired in the last five years.
		
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Given the rank I wonder if that changes things?


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

We were expecting an announcement from the President advising of the next lockdown, due to start on Sunday. Nothing through yet. However, the Health Minister has just been on and said he expects it to go through with no changes. He did add that the numbers still aren't at the point where they can say the next lockdown will be the last one, and that a further extension to the 10th May is likely.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			MP's and staff would normally be operating out of an office, whether at Wetsminster or in their constituency. Now they are doing the same work from home. That means short term, new expenses that they are entitled to claim for.

Current expenses have to be identified not just pocketed. There really are expenses incurred in running a consituency office x 2 and it is only fair that they are covered. They operate for our benefit after all.

Where I do agree with you is that there should be no relaxation of evidence. No receipt, no expenses. Every company I have worked for operates the same way. The system is usually best operated by a scary battle axe 

Click to expand...

Mate, everyone is being asked to take pay cuts for being at home or to donate to the NHS etc, maybe the argument could of been not for them to take a pay cut, but no rises in expenses! It’s immoral when they are going on about jobs!
As for a limit of 10k on it, why not start at a monthly limit or See how long the lockdown lasts?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And the award for Scum of the Year currently rests with these 2;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-52227363

Hopefully a healthy custodial sentence will follow if convicted.
		
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Similar case in America lead to a man being charged with terror offences. Hope that follows here.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2020)

Anyone else thinking they need to announce any extension today?  If the current one expires Tuesday, I wonder how many of the muppets will think "Well it stops tomorrow so going out on Bank Holiday Monday won't hurt..."


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, everyone is being asked to take pay cuts for being at home or to donate to the NHS etc, maybe the argument could of been not for them to take a pay cut, but no rises in expenses! It’s immoral when they are going on about jobs!
As for a limit of 10k on it, why not start at a monthly limit or See how long the lockdown lasts?
		
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This is not about pay, this is about legitimate expenses incurred representing constituents. If they start cutting back then you end up going back to only the rich being able to become MP's.

The limit is exactly that, a limit. It is not a target and for some they may not claim any extra. It all depends on circumstances. If anyone tries for some dodgy expenses then you hope the HoC system will knock them back.

Don't forget, out of those expenses they have to fund rent for an office, staff to run it, computers, printers, heating, lighting, phone lines, rates, office furniture etc. Don't see this as pay, this is money required to effectively run the day to day work of being an MP, helping constituents.


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## Wolf (Apr 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Anyone else thinking they need to announce any extension today?  If the current one expires Tuesday, I wonder how many of the muppets will think "Well it stops tomorrow so going out on Bank Holiday Monday won't hurt..."  

Click to expand...

According to reports on radio I'm listening to whilst working from home they're saying cabinet are meeting today to discuss the extension with possible announcements later.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2020)

A mate wasapped me before who works in a post office.

Despite people being only asked to order essential goods online, he come in complaining that 5 days after despatch he still hadnt received his parcel.

When asked what the item was, he advised that it was a xmas tree.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This is not about pay, this is about legitimate expenses incurred representing constituents. If they start cutting back then you end up going back to only the rich being able to become MP's.

The limit is exactly that, a limit. It is not a target and for some they may not claim any extra. It all depends on circumstances. If anyone tries for some dodgy expenses then you hope the HoC system will knock them back.

Don't forget, out of those expenses they have to fund rent for an office, staff to run it, computers, printers, heating, lighting, phone lines, rates, office furniture etc. Don't see this as pay, this is money required to effectively run the day to day work of being an MP, helping constituents.
		
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They already get up to £26,000 per year to do all you say! Do you honestly believe they need it up’d by 10k for 4-6 weeks at home.

Are they not saving by not using their 2nd home on heating and light etc.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2020)

Liverbirdie said:



			A mate wasapped me before who works in a post office.

Despite people being only asked to order essential goods online, he come in complaining that 5 days after despatch he still hadnt received his parcel.

When asked what the item was, he advised that it was a xmas tree.
		
Click to expand...

Dear God, some of them are beyond help.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Dear God, some of them are beyond help. 

Click to expand...

Dont know, have you seen how cheap baubles are at the moment.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2020)

Most if not all MPs have constituency offices which are well stocked  staffed and already being paid for by us, the tax payer. Most work even during normal periods are done in these offices.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Most if not all MPs have constituency offices which are well stocked  staffed and already being paid for by us, the tax payer. Most work even during normal periods are done in these offices.
		
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The staff may well be working from home now though, or if 2 staff then one in the office, one at home so as to keep to the 2m rule. They may need to buy duplicate equipment where previously it was shared.

I'm not defending excess but legitimate expenses are perfectly valid.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The staff may well be working from home now though, or if 2 staff then one in the office, one at home so as to keep to the 2m rule. They may need to buy duplicate equipment where previously it was shared.

I'm not defending excess but legitimate expenses are perfectly valid.
		
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How can you put a 10k rise on it! I agree if there’s a legitimate expense they should not be out of pocket, but justify an increase of over 33% and relaxing the claim rules at the start of the financial year is just irresponsible imo.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They already get up to £26,000 per year to do all you say! Do you honestly believe they need it up’d by 10k for 4-6 weeks at home.

Are they not saving by not using their 2nd home on heating and light etc.
		
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I would not expect them to get anywhere near the 10k limit and if anyone did then I would expect a pretty thorough examination of the receipts and explanations of why they got so high. The figure may be an arbitrary one, plucked from the top of someones head.

This money is not for their second homes but to cover additional office expenses, as I read it. They are not using the lights or heating in their offices but the standing charges are the same and they have to be paid still. They will use less and that will be shown in the next set of bills that they claim for. The point is that some of the expenses are now transferred to their house, new equipment may be required at home to replicate what they needed at their office.

When this is all over it will be interesting to see what was claimed for, how justifiable it all looks.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would not expect them to get anywhere near the 10k limit and if anyone did then I would expect a pretty thorough examination of the receipts and explanations of why they got so high. The figure may be an arbitrary one, plucked from the top of someones head.

This money is not for their second homes but to cover additional office expenses, as I read it. They are not using the lights or heating in their offices but the standing charges are the same and they have to be paid still. They will use less and that will be shown in the next set of bills that they claim for. The point is that some of the expenses are now transferred to their house, new equipment may be required at home to replicate what they needed at their office.

When this is all over it will be interesting to see what was claimed for, how justifiable it all looks.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...navirus-MPs-office-expenses-hiked-10-000.html

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...-000-cover-home-working-coronavirus-lockdown/


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## IainP (Apr 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Anyone else thinking they need to announce any extension today?  If the current one expires Tuesday, I wonder how many of the muppets will think "Well it stops tomorrow so going out on Bank Holiday Monday won't hurt..."  

Click to expand...

I noticed that on booking sites like golfnow you could book tee times from Tuesday onwards. I guess this is because no formal extension has been announced.
I think we all expect it, and maybe the Boris situation has delayed announcing a little. Agree it needs to happen soon.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			They already get up to £26,000 per year to do all you say! Do you honestly believe they need it up’d by 10k for 4-6 weeks at home.

Are they not saving by not using their 2nd home on heating and light etc.
		
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If you've got 4 staff working from home, that's 4x desks, 4x chairs, 4x small filing cabinet. The list goes on and on. A decent chair is the thick end of £100. A decent desk is at least £200. Seriously, £10k to equip and run an office for a number of home workers is easily spent. If anything it looks on the light side.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If you've got 4 staff working from home, that's 4x desks, 4x chairs, 4x small filing cabinet. The list goes on and on. A decent chair is the thick end of £100. A decent desk is at least £200. Seriously, £10k to equip and run an office for a number of home workers is easily spent. If anything it looks on the light side.
		
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Or you take the desks and chairs from the office or you furlough some staff or 2 staff work in the office or you use the 26k already allocated.


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## bobmac (Apr 9, 2020)

How many MPs employ their partners as secretaries and pay them up to £50,000 salary and they already work from home, the MPs home?


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## Wolf (Apr 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How many MPs employ their partners as secretaries and pay them up to £50,000 salary and they already work from home, the MPs home?
		
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How many self employed people do the same. Absolutely hundreds if not more, its not just MPs. If you want to jump on that band wagon the same needs be applied to any self employed person of business owner doing the same to dodge a bit of tax. I could name dozens i know of guilty of that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How many MPs employ their partners as secretaries and pay them up to £50,000 salary and they already work from home, the MPs home?
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39282279

If this was put into place then the answer is a lot less than there used to be .

In 2017 1/4 still employed family members but no new members were allowed to. Allowing for MP's retiring, losing their seats etc it must be a good deal fewer than 1/4 by now.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2020)

Just seen the police setting up a drone at the entrance to our lane. I'd say there has been at least 20 times more people than normal walking/biking down the lane nowadays which makes keeping 2 m away form people a little tricky at times.  But assuming people haven't driven here and they are not groups of people not sure what the police can say.  Strange thing is that once you off the lane on to the footpaths across the fields, which is far nicer than walking down a lane, you hardly see anyone.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Or you take the desks and chairs from the office or you furlough some staff or 2 staff work in the office or you use the 26k already allocated.
		
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Do you really think its a good idea to have removals men traipsing about the country? I thought lockdown was about minimal movement. I've signed expenses off for home working, and bought for my own, not including elec, gas etc. Setting up home offices doesn't come cheap. At a time when constituencies need to be well supported by their MP's, who will probably need the majority if not all of their staff working, I have no problem at all with those expenses.

The £10k is a limit, not a target. Once the 'start-up' costs are spent there'll be relatively small running costs.

You appear to be coming at this from a perspective of trust. I don't doubt the odd MP or staffer will abuse it. Down the years I certainly had a few people abuse their expenses but, equally, the vast majority were not only spot on, they didn't claim for a number of small purchases. However, the big issue is that they continue to run an efficient office at a time when it is most needed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2020)

How does coronavirus affect us?

Emily Maitlis got it bang on for me with what she said on Newsnight last night.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Do you really think its a good idea to have removals men traipsing about the country? I thought lockdown was about minimal movement. I've signed expenses off for home working, and bought for my own, not including elec, gas etc. Setting up home offices doesn't come cheap. At a time when constituencies need to be well supported by their MP's, who will probably need the majority if not all of their staff working, I have no problem at all with those expenses.

The £10k is a limit, not a target. Once the 'start-up' costs are spent there'll be relatively small running costs.

You appear to be coming at this from a perspective of trust. I don't doubt the odd MP or staffer will abuse it. Down the years I certainly had a few people abuse their expenses but, equally, the vast majority were not only spot on, they didn't claim for a number of small purchases. However, the big issue is that they continue to run an efficient office at a time when it is most needed.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t doubt there may be legitimate expenses, I don’t doubt we could both do whatiffery or whatabouttery until the cows come home, my issue is the timing and the amount.

As at 01 Apr they get up to £26k for the year for everything they need to do, this year they have £36k, why not propose the £26k be reviewed after 6 months once IPSA are aware of any issues or problems the MP’s have had.

I’ll bow out now mate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How does coronavirus affect us?

Emily Maitlis got it bang on for me with what she said on Newsnight last night.







Click to expand...

See post #4700.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 9, 2020)

Can't the MPs and their staff just do what everyone else does and use tables and chairs already in their houses?


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t doubt there may be legitimate expenses, I don’t doubt we could both do whatiffery or whatabouttery until the cows come home, my issue is the timing and the amount.

As at 01 Apr they get up to £26k for the year for everything they need to do, this year they have £36k, why not propose the £26k be reviewed after 6 months once IPSA are aware of any issues or problems the MP’s have had.

I’ll bow out now mate.
		
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Timing; I don't think the pandemic was assigned a schedule.

Amount; you're right, we could do a what if/what about. I've bounced expenses before because someone has claimed for a gold-plated whatever instead of a plain steel one. I'd be very surprised if the same doesn't apply to them. Equally, why not £40k if that's what it takes?

You've seen a figure and baulked at it. Have you baulked at it because you know what it takes to set up and run home working for a staff complement you know? I'd hazard you've baulked at it on, mainly, an emotional level.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Can't the MPs and their staff just do what everyone else does and use tables and chairs already in their houses?
		
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They can but its illegal, and it isn't what everyone else does. A decent company will have a procedure for setting up home working which includes a lot of input from the Health and Safety team. "What is the right desk/chair combination for sitting there for 8 hours?" If a company doesn't include H&S, any issues raised by a staff member, e.g. bad back... I'm sure you get the drift.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			They can but its illegal, and it isn't what everyone else does. A decent company will have a procedure for setting up home working which includes a lot of input from the Health and Safety team. "What is the right desk/chair combination for sitting there for 8 hours?" If a company doesn't include H&S, any issues raised by a staff member, e.g. bad back... I'm sure you get the drift.
		
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Didn't realise it was illegal but in fairness I don't think they had time to consider legalities.
My back is aching at the moment. FWIW I've got an orthopaedic chair at work and that was about £500.


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## huds1475 (Apr 9, 2020)

Seems to be a lot of emotion-based venting around these parts.

Sign of the times I guess.

Anyone else got any good news?!?!

Keep safe folks 👍


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 9, 2020)

Liverbirdie said:



			Dont know, have you seen how cheap baubles are at the moment. 

Click to expand...

And you do look good in a cheap bauble mate.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 9, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Seems to be a lot of emotion-based venting around these parts.

Sign of the times I guess.

Anyone else got any good news?!?!

Keep safe folks 👍
		
Click to expand...

Well - as I may have posted earlier - tracking my 2020 hcp reduction on the same curve as was clear from the Jan-February *data* - I am now off single figures - does that count ?
Seems legit to me


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Didn't realise it was illegal but in fairness I don't think they had time to consider legalities.
My back is aching at the moment. FWIW I've got an orthopaedic chair at work and that was about £500.
		
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As you probably know, HSE also prosecutes the individual if they feel that the injured party was doing something they shouldn't. Both sides get done.


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## fundy (Apr 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Nope will not accept a thing. At that stage in my life where a bit if good karma is worth everything. Cannot remember exactly where you are but I am just outside Grantham but in Melton 2-3 days a week at the moment if easier. Will check it works and factory reset it over the Easter weekend and we can work on a plan from there
		
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does this apply to future conveyancing work too 

nice one Greg, great gesture


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## GB72 (Apr 9, 2020)

OK, now starting to appreciate the issue with judging anything by the number of reported daily fatalities. Just seen this report for today:

NHS England has recorded 765 new deaths in hospital from coronavirus.
It said that 140 of them occurred yesterday, while 568 took place between 1 April and 7 April.
The remaining 57 deaths took place in March, including two on 19 March and one on 16 March.

I was not aware that there was so much lag in the figures and so actually we at looking at new reports that are a week to 2 weeks out of date.


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## Old Skier (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			They can but its illegal, and it isn't what everyone else does. A decent company will have a procedure for setting up home working which includes a lot of input from the Health and Safety team. "What is the right desk/chair combination for sitting there for 8 hours?" If a company doesn't include H&S, any issues raised by a staff member, e.g. bad back... I'm sure you get the drift.
		
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In an ideal world possibly. HID is a simple serpent and has had to work from home for the last 2 weeks using our broadband, electricity, heating and working off her laptop on the kitchen table. Seems one rule for an MP and another for those that work for them.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And you do look good in a cheap bauble mate. 

Click to expand...

The last time I wore a cheap bauble was about 1982, when my mam bought me that Crystal palace top (remember the white kit, with the blue and ted diagonal stripe across it).

She thought it was an England kit.


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## Lump (Apr 9, 2020)

Looks like my brother, sister in law and niece have been infected. 
Little one showed signs first and has bounced through it without any issues. Sister in law has a few health issues so it’s a little worrying. 2 elderly relatives on her side have passed away due to it. My brother is a calm head so hopefully he can keep her relaxed as much as he can.


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## drdel (Apr 9, 2020)

It might just be worth noting that our MPs are generally paid far less than their international counterparts ! You'd get about 5 or 6 PMs for one Mr G Lineker, Mr P Morgan, Ant and Dec !!!


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## chrisd (Apr 9, 2020)

Liverbirdie said:



			The last time I wore a cheap bauble was about 1982, when my mam bought me that Crystal palace top (remember the white kit, with the blue and ted diagonal stripe across it).

She thought it was an England kit. 

Click to expand...

It was as good as 👍👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			See post #4700. 

Click to expand...

ah...how did I miss that...

I know - I started reading from the copper of 67 #4701...that was at the top of my page and I never went further back.  I agree with you 100% - her words were spot on.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			As you probably know, HSE also prosecutes the individual if they feel that the injured party was doing something they shouldn't. Both sides get done.
		
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Both sides currently getting done by a dining room chair. 😁


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			It might just be worth noting that our MPs are generally paid far less than their international counterparts ! You'd get about 5 or 6 PMs for one Mr G Lineker, Mr P Morgan, Ant and Dec !!!
		
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Are Ant and Dec MPs in another country now?  Cool, hope they make Wonkey Donkey compulsory.


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 9, 2020)

What the actual F......!!

These people are imbeciles, and will be the first to complain when they catch it, or worse still have someone close die from it. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-engla...aj8Js4Om_zz5nar3se0_8aAbJU6vl0795K0V2FOrJP5F4


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## bobmac (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I take it this if this is true it’s a disgrace!! 80% furlough, questions over Premier League footballers, Banks not playing the game to help business’s, but this lot! 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-000-each-for-home-working-expenses-w0h5sx99l

Click to expand...

Only £10,000?
I pressume that's over and above their almost £82,000 salary


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## huds1475 (Apr 9, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			Well - as I may have posted earlier - tracking my 2020 hcp reduction on the same curve as was clear from the Jan-February *data* - I am now off single figures - does that count ?
Seems legit to me 

Click to expand...

Haha yes.

I've managed to flatten my upward curve too!


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## Billysboots (Apr 9, 2020)

Liverbirdie said:



			A mate wasapped me before who works in a post office.

Despite people being only asked to order essential goods online, he come in complaining that 5 days after despatch he still hadnt received his parcel.

When asked what the item was, he advised that it was a xmas tree.
		
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Whilst I absolutely agree a Christmas tree is not a necessity in April, nowhere as far as I can see have we been told we can only order essential goods online. That’s a new one on me.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			See post #4700. 

Click to expand...

We are all in this together and it doesn't discriminate. Unless you are an annoying middle class tosser like me who is able to mostly isolate themselves from society whilst still having a decent income, therefore statistically a lot less likely to get it than those in generally lower paid jobs who have to go to work and mix a lot more with potential carriers. Still, if I get it I am very resilient and a battler so I will be fine, ignoring the fact that once you get it your so called resilience and battling attributes count for sod all.  But using terms like battle, war and fighter will make anyone how has lost anyone to this feel better as their loved ones were not resilient enough....


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## pendodave (Apr 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			We are all in this together and it doesn't discriminate. Unless you are an annoying middle class tosser like me who is able to mostly isolate themselves from society whilst still having a decent income, therefore statistically a lot less likely to get it than those in generally lower paid jobs who have to go to work and mix a lot more with potential carriers. Still, if I get it I am very resilient and a battler so I will be fine, ignoring the fact that once you get it your so called resilience and battling attributes count for sod all.  But using terms like battle, war and fighter will make anyone how has lost anyone to this feel better as their loved ones were not resilient enough....  

Click to expand...

It does discriminate though. It overwhelmingly goes after the old and the ill.
If everyone was equal, I don't think we'd be seeing too many houseparties.
It's part of the problem, and I guess it will eventually be something that is reflected in the route back.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2020)

Some positive news. Of the 451 people that have been admitted and tested positive, 248 have now gone home. No ICU admissions overnight as well. 

I still have no faith in the general public and can see hordes ignoring advice and going to beaches or parks in groups or having barbecues and inviting mates over to party this weekend while the weather is good. Give it 10-14 days for the incubation period and I reckon we'll have a big spike towards the end of the month. 

That said at least in my area there has been progress to date


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2020)

Lump said:



			Looks like my brother, sister in law and niece have been infected.
Little one showed signs first and has bounced through it without any issues. Sister in law has a few health issues so it’s a little worrying. 2 elderly relatives on her side have passed away due to it. My brother is a calm head so hopefully he can keep her relaxed as much as he can.
		
Click to expand...

Feel for you, it's difficult when you cant be there for people.  My Daughter has just been through it and it hit her quite hard. She lives on her own (other than her two dogs) in Chiswick 130 miles from us but it makes little difference how far.  Shes had two visits from Paramedics who were brilliant but she was very low with it, being on her own made it tough. All we could do was keep talking on video conf , send red cross parcels and hope for the best.  I am humbled by the way a number of local people helped her by taking in her dogs, shopping and making sure she was OK.


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## Billysboots (Apr 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some positive news. Of the 451 people that have been admitted and tested positive, 248 have now gone home. No ICU admissions overnight as well.

I still have no faith in the general public and can see hordes ignoring advice and going to beaches or parks in groups or having barbecues and inviting mates over to party this weekend while the weather is good. Give it 10-14 days for the incubation period and I reckon we'll have a big spike towards the end of the month.

That said at least in my area there has been progress to date
		
Click to expand...

Homer, it must be so frustrating to work in the NHS and, at the end of a shift, go home to news of some of the moronic behaviour of the great unwashed.

Our control room field over 300 calls every day reporting breaches of COVID guidance. And that’s only the reported breaches. There will be many times more which go unreported.

And we are just one of forty three police forces. It’s so depressing it defies belief.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Homer, it must be so frustrating to work in the NHS and, at the end of a shift, go home to news of some of the moronic behaviour of the great unwashed.

Our control room field over 300 calls every day reporting breaches of COVID guidance. And that’s only the reported breaches. There will be many times more which go unreported.

And we are just one of forty three police forces. It’s so depressing it defies belief.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. There is a definite build up of frustration especially amongst the nurses and doctors who are working long hours in hot conditions in full PPE and as you say go home and see the muppets on the news. More so as all annual leave is cancelled so I am in tomorrow and Monday along with everyone else that had been rostered on. I would love to see idiots get nicked and all get community service so when this mess is over they can do some graft when everyone else is taking a breather


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## AmandaJR (Apr 9, 2020)

Boris out of intensive care - best news for weeks.


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## Billysboots (Apr 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Agreed. There is a definite build up of frustration especially amongst the nurses and doctors who are working long hours in hot conditions in full PPE and as you say go home and see the muppets on the news. More so as all annual leave is cancelled so I am in tomorrow and Monday along with everyone else that had been rostered on. I would love to see idiots get nicked and all get community service so when this mess is over they can do some graft when everyone else is taking a breather
		
Click to expand...

I try and give my kids the simplistic view, and I do accept it is very simplistic. 

But I tell them, if every household stayed at home for a month, doing essential shopping and trips only, maximising social distancing when they do, the virus would die out as it simply has nowhere to go.

It’s not really a tricky concept to grasp, and it mystifies me why so many are struggling with it.


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## Hobbit (Apr 9, 2020)

"How has it affected me?"

Currently watching a black and white 1956 episode of Dixon of Dock Green. I need to get out more...


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## MegaSteve (Apr 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			OK, now starting to appreciate the issue with judging anything by the number of reported daily fatalities. Just seen this report for today:

NHS England has recorded 765 new deaths in hospital from coronavirus.
It said that 140 of them occurred yesterday, while 568 took place between 1 April and 7 April.
The remaining 57 deaths took place in March, including two on 19 March and one on 16 March.

I was not aware that there was so much lag in the figures and so actually we at looking at new reports that are a week to 2 weeks out of date.
		
Click to expand...

Local news, this evening, a funeral director was saying if you add the deaths away from hospital (not currently included in the published figures) it paints a truly concerning picture... Normally doing about 100 funerals a month currently doing 20 a day...


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## 2blue (Apr 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Agreed. There is a definite build up of frustration especially amongst the nurses and doctors who are working long hours in hot conditions in full PPE and as you say go home and see the muppets on the news. More so as all annual leave is cancelled so I am in tomorrow and Monday along with everyone else that had been rostered on.* I would love to see idiots get nicked and all get community service so when this mess is over they can do some graft when everyone else is taking a breathe*r
		
Click to expand...

 Think they should have stepped up the fines/ arrests etc in preparation for this Bank-holiday weekend...... too much of a nanny-state I'm afraid.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			"How has it affected me?"

Currently watching a black and white 1956 episode of Dixon of Dock Green. I need to get out more...

Click to expand...

Could have started with 'Evening all'


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2020)

2blue said:



			Think they should have stepped up the fines/ arrests etc in preparation for this Bank-holiday weekend...... too much of a nanny-state I'm afraid. 

Click to expand...

I also wonder if its a political decision. Having just seen the tories make huge inroads into labour heartlands they don't want to do anything to draconian. Voters have long memories. Also, do they have the resources to police the parks and open spaces properly


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I also wonder if its a political decision. Having just seen the tories make huge inroads into labour heartlands they don't want to do anything to draconian. Voters have long memories. Also, do they have the resources to police the parks and open spaces properly
		
Click to expand...

It's like any form of civil punishment, you punish the ones you catch and hopefully it's a deterent to others. It will never be possible to catch everyone.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 9, 2020)

One of our senior ICU conultants Dr Carl Waldmann on Sky News a the moment. Giving quite an uplifting and positive interview


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## AmandaJR (Apr 9, 2020)

Before our village Clap for Carers tonight there was a rendition of Somewhere Over The Rainbow by a couple of local musicians (trombone and trumpet) - it was stunning and our neighbour was in tears.


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## Imurg (Apr 9, 2020)

Somebody down the road was absolutely murdering a brass instrument of some description......


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## hovis (Apr 9, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Somebody down the road was absolutely murdering a brass instrument of some description......
		
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sorry but thought of this


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## pauljames87 (Apr 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			How many self employed people do the same. Absolutely hundreds if not more, its not just MPs. If you want to jump on that band wagon the same needs be applied to any self employed person of business owner doing the same to dodge a bit of tax. I could name dozens i know of guilty of that.
		
Click to expand...

My uncle did this during his career. Worked until 1995 when he retired (he's mid 80s now) anyways he employed my aunt as his house keeper for years so she paid tax an national insurance to make sure she got her own pension at state pension age 

Very wise man financially 

Shame his mind has gone


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## Slab (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I absolutely agree a Christmas tree is not a necessity in April, nowhere as far as I can see have we been told we can only order essential goods online. That’s a new one on me.
		
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Should people really have to be told this kind of very obvious non essential guff shopping will put other peoples health at more risk
You cannot work on the basis that if you haven't specially been told not to do xyz then it automatically means it's fair game


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## bobmac (Apr 10, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			Can't the MPs and their staff just do what everyone else does and use tables and chairs already in their houses?
		
Click to expand...

MPs already get an office allowance 
Budgets
6.10 For London Area MPs, the annual office costs budget is £28,800. 
6.11 For non-London Area MPs, the annual office costs budget is £25,910. 

Budgets 
7.12 For London Area MPs, the annual staffing costs budget is £188,860. 
7.13 For non-London Area MPs, the annual staffing costs budget is £177,550. 

Plus £6,000 for stationery


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## HowlingGale (Apr 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



			MPs already get an office allowance 
Budgets
6.10 For London Area MPs, the annual office costs budget is £28,800. 
6.11 For non-London Area MPs, the annual office costs budget is £25,910. 

Budgets 
7.12 For London Area MPs, the annual staffing costs budget is £188,860. 
7.13 For non-London Area MPs, the annual staffing costs budget is £177,550. 

Plus £6,000 for stationery
		
Click to expand...

BoJo told us to work form home, if you can. Now we find out maybe half the workforce of Britain could be doing so illegally. There was no time for everyone to be fitted for new office equipment.

Now we find out extra budget is available to a select few to do what everyone else is just getting on with. If the MPs get extra budget then surely the whole workforce should have that luxury from the government as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I also wonder if its a political decision. Having just seen the tories make huge inroads into labour heartlands they don't want to do anything to draconian. Voters have long memories. Also, do they have the resources to police the parks and open spaces properly
		
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...not until those more draconian measures can be announced by Johnson...as many might listen to him who couldn’t give a fig for what any of the others say - so my wife’s thinking goes. She may have a point.


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## bobmac (Apr 10, 2020)

HowlingGale said:



			BoJo told us to work form home, if you can. Now we find out maybe half the workforce of Britain could be doing so illegally. There was no time for everyone to be fitted for new office equipment.

Now we find out extra budget is available to a select few to do what everyone else is just getting on with. If the MPs get extra budget then surely the whole workforce should have that luxury from the government as well.
		
Click to expand...

You can bet your house the whole workforce won't be getting a 3.1% pay rise either.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 10, 2020)

Never mind the use of inappropriate office equipment... If my lads computer caught fire and burnt the house down would my insurer's pay up?


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## HowlingGale (Apr 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You can bet your house the whole workforce won't be getting a 3.1% pay rise either.
		
Click to expand...

We're all in this together.


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## HowlingGale (Apr 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Never mind the use of inappropriate office equipment... If my lads computer caught fire and burnt the house down would my insurer's pay up?
		
Click to expand...

You might get sued because you weren't looking after it.


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2020)

In the interests of supporting small businesses I just ordered a delivery of beer from local micro Brewery in Tintern. 

Keep business going! 😁


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## BrianM (Apr 10, 2020)

Well think it’s safe to say I have it, woke up at 2:20 feeling like I’d been hit by a bus, body aching all over, roasting hot but freezing cold as well, tight throat and wheezy cough.
Have spoke to work doctor who says just to carry on taking paracetamol and they will get more to me in hotel.
Can’t actually believe it.


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## bluewolf (Apr 10, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well think it’s safe to say I have it, woke up at 2:20 feeling like I’d been hit by a bus, body aching all over, roasting hot but freezing cold as well, tight throat and wheezy cough.
Have spoke to work doctor who says just to carry on taking paracetamol and they will get more to me in hotel.
Can’t actually believe it.
		
Click to expand...

Hope you get better soon 👍


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## 2blue (Apr 10, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well think it’s safe to say I have it, woke up at 2:20 feeling like I’d been hit by a bus, body aching all over, roasting hot but freezing cold as well, tight throat and wheezy cough.
Have spoke to work doctor who says just to carry on taking paracetamol and they will get more to me in hotel.
Can’t actually believe it.
		
Click to expand...

Take care.... best wishes.


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## hovis (Apr 10, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well think it’s safe to say I have it, woke up at 2:20 feeling like I’d been hit by a bus, body aching all over, roasting hot but freezing cold as well, tight throat and wheezy cough.
Have spoke to work doctor who says just to carry on taking paracetamol and they will get more to me in hotel.
Can’t actually believe it.
		
Click to expand...

statistically you probably have the flu. get well soon


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## Stuart_C (Apr 10, 2020)

Jesus Brian hope you're back  fighting for asap. 

Get plenty of vitamins in you and try eat good nutritious food...and get some Zinc if you can👍


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## Slime (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I try and give my kids the simplistic view, and I do accept it is very simplistic.

But I tell them, if every household stayed at home for a month, doing essential shopping and trips only, maximising social distancing when they do, the virus would die out as it simply has nowhere to go.

It’s not really a tricky concept to grasp, and *it mystifies me why so many are struggling with it*.
		
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The problem is that I don't think they're struggling with it, I think they're just blatantly ignoring it.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 10, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Boris out of intensive care - best news for weeks.
		
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Agree entirely Amanda.

Please do NOT look at the comments Steve Henley from RMT Union made on his Facebook page. Unbelievable and I think it was also in The Sun.


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## hovis (Apr 10, 2020)

just drove past asda on my way home from work.  I have never seen a queue so long.   according to the coppers the local supermarkets have been nuts since Wednesday!   what's going on.  people planning family get togethers no doubt 😔


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Hope you get better soon 👍
		
Click to expand...


Keep taking the tablets. GWS


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## MegaSteve (Apr 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			just drove past asda on my way home from work.  I have never seen a queue so long.   according to the coppers the local supermarkets have been nuts since Wednesday!   what's going on.  people planning family get togethers no doubt 😔
		
Click to expand...

Was advised it was horrendous queuing outside all the supermarkets yesterday morning in these parts... Glad we went out Wednesday... Shop was virtually empty of customers with shelves relatively full...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			just drove past asda on my way home from work.  I have never seen a queue so long.   according to the coppers the local supermarkets have been nuts since Wednesday!   what's going on.  people planning family get togethers no doubt 😔
		
Click to expand...

Maybe not, maybe people trying to make it as normal as they can for the kids?

We will be having our normal easter lunch just without everyone else 

My wife sent me pic of all the Easter stuff she got for little lady months ago as she always gets things 6 months ahead so she will get an Easter egg hunt in the garden ..stuff like that 

Wonder how many just doing things to make lock down feel a little more normal without going out more than normal 

Time the weekly shop right can fit it all in I'm sure 

Or nice weather how many people thinking BBQ at home with the kids? Again no more trips than normal if you time it right


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

Slab said:



			Should people really have to be told this kind of very obvious non essential guff shopping will put other peoples health at more risk
You cannot work on the basis that if you haven't specially been told not to do xyz then it automatically means it's fair game
		
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But that’s where retailers need to take responsibility for their operation. Should I decide to order a non-essential item online then the onus is on the retailer to manage my order safely. Not on me to not submit my order to begin with.

If retailers act responsibly I get my order, they don’t go out of business and nobody is put at risk. Some common sense has to prevail, surely?


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

Slime said:



			The problem is that I don't think they're struggling with it, I think they're just blatantly ignoring it.
		
Click to expand...

I’ll give you an example of what this country is up against.

A colleague of mine stopped and spoke to a group of three men from a different household playing football in a local park. Their explanation?

They’d left their individual homes to go for essential food supplies, so their “leaving” was legitimate. They argued that there was nothing specific in the guidance that said, having completed the essential task, they then had to return home again.

Difficult to know whether they were being serious or taking the urine, but either way it illustrates perfectly why this country will remain locked down for months to come.


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## BrianM (Apr 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			statistically you probably have the flu. get well soon
		
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It’s not the flu, Coronavirus has been confirmed at my work place with 4 people now, I’ve been working directly with someone who has been confirmed positive.
I did have the flu last year and that was bloody awful as well 😂


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## hovis (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ll give you an example of what this country is up against.

A colleague of mine stopped and spoke to a group of three men from a different household playing football in a local park. Their explanation?

They’d left their individual homes to go for essential food supplies, so their “leaving” was legitimate. They argued that there was nothing specific in the guidance that said, having completed the essential task, they then had to return home again.

Difficult to know whether they were being serious or taking the urine, but either way it illustrates perfectly why this country will remain locked down for months to come.
		
Click to expand...

i really wouldn't bat an eyelid if the police shot them dead.  harsh I know but they clearly don't value other people's life so......


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ll give you an example of what this country is up against.

A colleague of mine stopped and spoke to a group of three men from a different household playing football in a local park. Their explanation?

They’d left their individual homes to go for essential food supplies, so their “leaving” was legitimate. They argued that there was nothing specific in the guidance that said, having completed the essential task, they then had to return home again.

Difficult to know whether they were being serious or taking the urine, but either way it illustrates perfectly why this country will remain locked down for months to come.
		
Click to expand...

Is it really any surprise when we keep seeing Politicians and others in positions of influence say one thing and do another?

Maybe those in them positions need to take responsibility for their actions rather than justify their behaviour.

Really do feel for the Emergency Services at this time!


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## Slab (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			But that’s where retailers need to take responsibility for their operation. Should I decide to order a non-essential item online then the onus is on the retailer to manage my order safely. Not on me to not submit my order to begin with.

If retailers act responsibly I get my order, they don’t go out of business and nobody is put at risk. Some common sense has to prevail, surely?
		
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The retailer cant control the public transport their staff had to use to get to work

I just don’t see where the kind of half-arsed lockdown in the UK is the way out, people are able to

go out and food shop as often as they like, even if that’s every single day (as long as you pick up essentials) 
they can online shop for anything until the retailer stops them (it won’t be their fault if a packer gets the virus taking public transport to work, it’ll be the employer surely) 
they can pop out for a specified but uncontrolled amount of time every day for exercise (even though most of them didn’t do that before lockdown)
And the above is just the stuff you’re allowed to do, not forgetting the rule breakers out sunbathing, playing footie etc

It wont work until all interactions/excursions are minimised, the balancing act wont cut it


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

Slab said:



			The retailer cant control the public transport their staff had to use to get to work

I just don’t see where the kind of half-arsed lockdown in the UK is the way out, people are able to

go out and food shop as often as they like, even if that’s every single day (as long as you pick up essentials)
they can online shop for anything until the retailer stops them (it won’t be their fault if a packer gets the virus taking public transport to work, it’ll be the employer surely)
they can pop out for a specified but uncontrolled amount of time every day for exercise (even though most of them didn’t do that before lockdown)
And the above is just the stuff you’re allowed to do, not forgetting the rule breakers out sunbathing, playing footie etc

It wont work until all interactions/excursions are minimised, the balancing act wont cut it
		
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree, but catering for every scenario is clearly proving beyond impossible. I, too, cannot see a way out of this.

The only real option is for everyone to have enough provisions to allow us all to stay at home for a month. Everyone. The virus then dies out.

But because that is clearly never going to be feasible there is always going to be some sort of half way house approach. 

And therein lies the problem. It’s one I don’t see a solution to, and I genuinely feel for the decision makers tasked with sorting this whole mess out.


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it really any surprise when we keep seeing Politicians and others in positions of influence say one thing and do another?

Maybe those in them positions need to take responsibility for their actions rather than justify their behaviour.

Really do feel for the Emergency Services at this time!
		
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I do think the media and press have a huge part to play, though.

I think it may have been the housing minister who made a 40 mile trip to see his parents. It turns out they are self-isolating and he was delivering medicine.

So whilst I absolutely agree those trying to influence us should set the example for us to follow, that also requires responsible, truthful reporting.

There’s more chance of me plaiting fog.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I do think the media and press have a huge part to play, though.

I think it may have been the housing minister who made a 40 mile trip to see his parents. It turns out they are self-isolating and he was delivering medicine.

So whilst I absolutely agree those trying to influence us should set the example for us to follow, that also requires responsible, truthful reporting.

There’s more chance of me plaiting fog.
		
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That was the excuse he came up with, I’m sure thousands could use that as an excuse to see their family.

The media are beyond a joke imo, one look at the press outside St Thomas’s proves that.


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## Slab (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I don’t disagree, but catering for every scenario is clearly proving beyond impossible. I, too, cannot see a way out of this.

The only real option is for everyone to have enough provisions to allow us all to *stay at home for a month*. Everyone. The virus then dies out.

But because that is clearly never going to be feasible there is always going to be some sort of half way house approach.

And therein lies the problem. It’s one I don’t see a solution to, and I genuinely feel for the decision makers tasked with sorting this whole mess out.
		
Click to expand...

This is what we're going for here (or as close as they think they can get, i'm not sure if even that will work but here's hoping)
Day 22 now of a minimum 28 with every non-essential business being mandated to shut down, no going out for exercise, travel permit required for essential workers to leave the home, food shopping on allocated days only for a max of 30 mins in-store with temp test before you get in (& carted off to isolation if its too high) the only country in the world that invoked an 8 day _no-notice_ shutdown of _every_ food shop. We are under curfew here not lock-down

I really hope it works, 7 deaths so far and I'd like to think it stops there


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That was the excuse he came up with, I’m sure thousands could use that as an excuse to see their family.

The media are beyond a joke imo, one look at the press outside St Thomas’s proves that.
		
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I’m trying to limit my exposure to the TV news and online articles. There’s no positivity whatsoever.

There is so much that we can learn from this crisis, tighter regulation of the press being just one. I don’t need to see pictures of patients lying in ITU, or lines of coffins, to know what a serious situation this is.


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

Slab said:



			This is what we're going for here (or as close as they think they can get, i'm not sure if even that will work but here's hoping)
Day 22 now of a minimum 28 with every non-essential business being mandated to shut down, no going out for exercise, travel permit required for essential workers to leave the home, food shopping on allocated days only for a max of 30 mins in-store with temp test before you get in (& carted off to isolation if its too high) the only country in the world that invoked an 8 day _no-notice_ shutdown of _every_ food shop. We are under curfew here not lock-down

I really hope it works, 7 deaths so far and I'd like to think it stops there
		
Click to expand...

I look at the figures, and there are half a dozen or so countries being hammered. Everywhere else it doesn’t seem a particularly big deal.

I get why the UK have an issue - we’re a multicultural society with Heathrow being one of the busiest, if not the busiest, airport in the world. The cat was well and truly out of the bag long before we even realised.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen far stricter border controls far sooner. I cannot, for example, understand why, as soon as the crisis in Northern Italy became evident, EVERYONE returning to the UK from there wasn’t placed into mandatory and monitored quarantine for 14 days. Instead, we gave them “advice” and allowed them to exercise choice whilst many of them spread the virus unknowingly.

As an island nation, and I accept I’m perhaps being hugely naive here, we could have got on top of this far more quickly.


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## Slab (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I look at the figures, and there are half a dozen or so countries being hammered. Everywhere else it doesn’t seem a particularly big deal.

I get why the UK have an issue - we’re a multicultural society with Heathrow being one of the busiest, if not the busiest, airport in the world. The cat was well and truly out of the bag long before we even realised.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen far stricter border controls far sooner. I cannot, for example, understand why, as soon as the crisis in Northern Italy became evident, EVERYONE returning to the UK from there wasn’t placed into mandatory and monitored quarantine for 14 days. Instead, we gave them “advice” and allowed them to exercise choice whilst many of them spread the virus unknowingly.

As an island nation, and I accept I’m perhaps being hugely naive here, we could have got on top of this far more quickly.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I was in the UK exactly one month ago and with one exception (gloved shop asst) no individuals I saw cared a jot about taking any preventative steps to limit the spread


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## harpo_72 (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I look at the figures, and there are half a dozen or so countries being hammered. Everywhere else it doesn’t seem a particularly big deal.

I get why the UK have an issue - we’re a multicultural society with Heathrow being one of the busiest, if not the busiest, airport in the world. The cat was well and truly out of the bag long before we even realised.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen far stricter border controls far sooner. I cannot, for example, understand why, as soon as the crisis in Northern Italy became evident, EVERYONE returning to the UK from there wasn’t placed into mandatory and monitored quarantine for 14 days. Instead, we gave them “advice” and allowed them to exercise choice whilst many of them spread the virus unknowingly.

As an island nation, and I accept I’m perhaps being hugely naive here, we could have got on top of this far more quickly.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but we have a greater proportion of idiots and slow decision makers. If the decision came earlier then the big investors would not have been able to dump their shares quick enough....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I look at the figures, and there are half a dozen or so countries being hammered. Everywhere else it doesn’t seem a particularly big deal.

I get why the UK have an issue - we’re a multicultural society with Heathrow being one of the busiest, if not the busiest, airport in the world. The cat was well and truly out of the bag long before we even realised.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen far stricter border controls far sooner. I cannot, for example, understand why, as soon as the crisis in Northern Italy became evident, EVERYONE returning to the UK from there wasn’t placed into mandatory and monitored quarantine for 14 days. Instead, we gave them “advice” and allowed them to exercise choice whilst many of them spread the virus unknowingly.

As an island nation, and I accept I’m perhaps being hugely naive here, we could have got on top of this far more quickly.
		
Click to expand...

This is exactly why we need to wait until we come out the other side of this to see if what we did (if anything) was wrong.

The Government needs to be flexible and responsive as the situation develops. 

Let’s be fair, once boris is back to good health do you not think people are going to hound him about his statement in early March about continuing to shake hands? That may well of been on the advice of his “experts” at the time.

I’ve no doubt hindsight will be a wonderful tool for those in ivory towers once it’s over.


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## pendodave (Apr 10, 2020)

Slab said:



			This is what we're going for here (or as close as they think they can get, i'm not sure if even that will work but here's hoping)
Day 22 now of a minimum 28 with every non-essential business being mandated to shut down, no going out for exercise, travel permit required for essential workers to leave the home, food shopping on allocated days only for a max of 30 mins in-store with temp test before you get in (& carted off to isolation if its too high) the only country in the world that invoked an 8 day _no-notice_ shutdown of _every_ food shop. We are under curfew here not lock-down

I really hope it works, 7 deaths so far and I'd like to think it stops there
		
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely familiar with your location Mr slab, but if it's a small place I don't think it's really a fair comp to the UK.


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## Slab (Apr 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm not entirely familiar with your location Mr slab, but if it's a small place I don't think it's really a fair comp to the UK.
		
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Compared to UK it is small, 1.25 million population (about 2/3 of NI) but with a minuscule fraction of the resources also. I wouldn't try to compare numbers only measures


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm not entirely familiar with your location Mr slab, but if it's a small place I don't think it's really a fair comp to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Not looking for an argument on it but is your statement not a cop out? Small place = 2 policemen, 1 ambulance, 1 fire engine. Large place - 20 policemen, 10 ambulances, 10 fire engines. Is it not just a question of economies of scale?

Yes its far more complex. Spain 54+ million. UK 64+million. Spain's lockdown is far more stringent, and far harsher if someone breaks the lockdown. Why can't the UK do the same?

And if you want something frightening to consider, maybe a good reason for far harsher regulations, have a look at the numbers for Bergamo and London.  Maybe it won't finally spin out like Bergamo but will London be Bergamo in 2 weeks time?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 10, 2020)

Slab said:



			I agree, I was in the UK exactly one month ago and with one exception (gloved shop asst) no individuals I saw cared a jot about taking any preventative steps to limit the spread
		
Click to expand...

If that person isn't changing those gloves regularly, I'm guessing they are not, then they may as well be bare handed. Wearing gloves gives a sense of security,  largely false, but washing hands, don't touch your face etc is still key.


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## bobmac (Apr 10, 2020)




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## pendodave (Apr 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Not looking for an argument on it but is your statement not a cop out? Small place = 2 policemen, 1 ambulance, 1 fire engine. Large place - 20 policemen, 10 ambulances, 10 fire engines. Is it not just a question of economies of scale?

Yes its far more complex. Spain 54+ million. UK 64+million. Spain's lockdown is far more stringent, and far harsher if someone breaks the lockdown. Why can't the UK do the same?

And if you want something frightening to consider, maybe a good reason for far harsher regulations, have a look at the numbers for Bergamo and London.  Maybe it won't finally spin out like Bergamo but will London be Bergamo in 2 weeks time?
		
Click to expand...

No offence taken, but when putting a strategy in place, it needs to reflect the environment in which it is placed.  A small population and a relatively simple economy is not the same as a big one, and will have vastly different options 
Spain and Italy have far worse results (so far) than many European countries which have implemented far less rigorous lockdowns. Why then should we assume that their approach is the one to be followed, and not the others?


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## Jacko_G (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			There must be an admin error there, surely?!

Most Forces are limiting such requests to those who retired in the last five years.
		
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It's for non essential back role jobs to free up current office hiders I believe.

😉


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## pendodave (Apr 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



View attachment 29839

Click to expand...

Is anyone on here not actively following this? 
It seems fair enough to have a civilised conversion about the whys and wherefore of the situation.  Critical thought isn't a bad thing, it's better than the alternative


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 10, 2020)

Slab said:



			I agree, I was in the UK exactly one month ago and with one exception (gloved shop asst) no individuals I saw cared a jot about taking any preventative steps to limit the spread
		
Click to expand...

Incidentally, I think your point is sound though, it was not taken in full seriousness at that stage. In all fairness, we have never seen anything like this before so I think most people felt a level of 'it wont really come here'. That wont happen again.


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## Dando (Apr 10, 2020)

Just called my future mil to see if she needed any shopping. We’ve got a list of stuff that will feed a small army for a few months


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## Jacko_G (Apr 10, 2020)

We could be knockdown for a long time yet.

This is a good read.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...y-not-return-to-normal-for-some-time-11971249


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			No offence taken, but when putting a strategy in place, it needs to reflect the environment in which it is placed.  A small population and a relatively simple economy is not the same as a big one, and will have vastly different options
Spain and Italy have far worse results (so far) than many European countries which have implemented far less rigorous lockdowns. Why then should we assume that their approach is the one to be followed, and not the others?
		
Click to expand...

Good point on the approach. I'm not sure that any one approach is having, or will have, a major impact on the numbers. If one country goes for a full on, hard lockdown the disease is still out there waiting for when its lifted. And if they're waiting for a vaccine, will that have to wait for a full year, as predicted? Whichever way its done, I don't expect any country to come through this without having some serious hits.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Maybe I haven't read enough on this but I don't see why this is getting so much stick. My mum is 75 and lives alone. Every time I speak to her I ask if she's able to get everything she needs and if she wasn't able to get something she absolutely needed and nobody more local could help her, you better believe I'd be straight in the car and driving the 60 miles to get it to her!
		
Click to expand...

I haven’t seen you on the news Kaz telling us not to go out.

The question is, who decides what is essential?

I’m the same as you, but he claimed the neighbours have been great in looking after his parents, and if it was “essential” medicine then pharmacies do home delivery.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			If I was making the rules people with a "K" in their name might still be allowed to play golf..... 

Click to expand...

Cambridgeshire Police can advise on what’s essential apparently.


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Cambridgeshire Police can advise on what’s essential apparently.
View attachment 29840

Click to expand...

Quite a number of people in Spain have been fined for not buying essentials.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 10, 2020)

Is it just me, or are the "heartwarming" and " uplifting"  stories  that keep getting on the news, now starting to get tiresome??  Do I care that some family somewhere are singing a virus-adapted version of  Les Miserable in their front room. Or showing online videos of cats acting out goodwill messages to disabled pensioners?  How about just sticking to the news.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 10, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			We could be knockdown for a long time yet.

This is a good read.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...y-not-return-to-normal-for-some-time-11971249

Click to expand...

Don’t think we need to read it to be honest.
Looking at China,Italy and Spain we are in for the long haul


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## Slab (Apr 10, 2020)

Pending confirmation this evening but it looks like we'll be getting the curfew period extended up to 4th May


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## 2blue (Apr 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Quite a number of people in Spain have been fined for not buying essentials.
		
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What non essentials would they typically be then, Bri?


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## pokerjoke (Apr 10, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Is it just me, or are the "heartwarming" and " uplifting"  stories  that keep getting on the news, now starting to get tiresome??  Do I care that some family somewhere are singing a virus-adapted version of  Les Miserable in their front room. Or showing online videos of cats acting out goodwill messages to disabled pensioners?  How about just sticking to the news.
		
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Attention seekers looking for a spot in the limelight.
Trying to look more important than they are.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Parody account?
		
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Nope, official and tweet now deleted.


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2020)

2blue said:



			What non essentials would they typically be then, Bri?
		
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Beer and crisps. The police are even going into supermarkets and taking stuff out of trolleys. Alicante region and Huelva region are the worst. Minister for the Interior has instructed the police to stop. 

What's not helping is the police get to keep a percentage of the fine. Its a pain having to go and argue the toss with the desk sergeant.


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## 2blue (Apr 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Beer and crisps. The police are even going into supermarkets and taking stuff out of trolleys. Alicante region and Huelva region are the worst. Minister for the Interior has instructed the police to stop.

What's not helping is the police get to keep a percentage of the fine. Its a pain having to go and argue the toss with the desk sergeant.
		
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Wow...... thought it might be ironing boards or similar........  they would have a heyday over here then.
So have you actually been to argue your case then?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Beer and crisps. The police are even going into supermarkets and taking stuff out of trolleys. Alicante region and Huelva region are the worst. Minister for the Interior has instructed the police to stop.

What's not helping is the police get to keep a percentage of the fine. Its a pain having to go and argue the toss with the desk sergeant.
		
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Well, at least you've a desk sergeant to go and argue the toss with... Not many of those left in these parts...


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Beer and crisps. The police are even going into supermarkets and taking stuff out of trolleys. Alicante region and Huelva region are the worst. Minister for the Interior has instructed the police to stop.

*What's not helping is the police get to keep a percentage of the fine*. Its a pain having to go and argue the toss with the desk sergeant.
		
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Sure that won’t cause any additional problems with a law that is already subjective in its nature... 🙄


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I look at the figures, and there are half a dozen or so countries being hammered. Everywhere else it doesn’t seem a particularly big deal.

I get why the UK have an issue - we’re a multicultural society with Heathrow being one of the busiest, if not the busiest, airport in the world. The cat was well and truly out of the bag long before we even realised.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen far stricter border controls far sooner. I cannot, for example, understand why, as soon as the crisis in Northern Italy became evident, EVERYONE returning to the UK from there wasn’t placed into mandatory and monitored quarantine for 14 days. Instead, we gave them “advice” and allowed them to exercise choice whilst many of them spread the virus unknowingly.

As an island nation, and I accept I’m perhaps being hugely naive here, we could have got on top of this far more quickly.
		
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The stricter borders controls should have been in place early January, and the blame lies directly with China and the WHO, they lied and covered up how bad the situation was.
China saying it couldn't be transmitted human, to human, while they had thousands of cases.
The WHO telling Trump his ban on flights from China was wrong, doctors being silenced in Wuhan, these were crimes against humanity and should not be forgotten.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 10, 2020)

hovis said:



			just drove past asda on my way home from work.  I have never seen a queue so long.   according to the coppers the local supermarkets have been nuts since Wednesday!   what's going on.  people planning family get togethers no doubt 😔
		
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8 houses on my lane. 3 of which are doing exactly what you thought!


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## Papas1982 (Apr 10, 2020)

We've been at it for 2 weeks now. That's how long people were told to self isolate if they had a cough etc. 

I think their flawed logic is that if they haven't got symptoms now then the household is clear. So are starting to socialise with like minded people. Problem being that although most of us are having significantly less contact with others. Some will still get it whilst out shopping etc.


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			The stricter borders controls should have been in place early January, and the blame lies directly with China and the WHO, they lied and covered up how bad the situation was.
China saying it couldn't be transmitted human, to human, while they had thousands of cases.
The WHO telling Trump his ban on flights from China was wrong, doctors being silenced in Wuhan, these were crimes against humanity and should not be forgotten.
		
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Agree 100%.


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I do think the media and press have a huge part to play, though.

I think it may have been the housing minister who made a 40 mile trip to see his parents. It turns out they are self-isolating and he was delivering medicine.

So whilst I absolutely agree those trying to influence us should set the example for us to follow, that also requires responsible, truthful reporting.

There’s more chance of me plaiting fog.
		
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There are enough ways for his parents to get any medicine they require.  I'm an NHS responder and spent yesterday afternoon getting prescriptions to the chemist and delivering stuff. Even our parish council have a system to get food and medicine to people.

The mans a knob and should resign, IMO obviously.


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## Imurg (Apr 10, 2020)

It seems the DVSA know something that we don't.
2 of my kids who had tests next week have had them rebooked by the DVSA for 15/16th July....
Let's hope social distancing is relaxed by mid June so I have a chance of getting them ready after a 3 month lay off.......


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 10, 2020)

Just got a call from my mum in Sweden confirming my stepdad (70+, smoker and needing help care several times per day) has tested positive for corona. So most likely my mum has it as well but not allowed to be tested as she’s not in a “risk group”. She’s not showing any symptoms either, so the advice in Sweden is - go to work as usual. Mind boggling advice imo.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			If I was making the rules people with a "K" in their name might still be allowed to play golf..... 

Click to expand...

And the illiterate


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Just got a call from my mum in Sweden confirming my stepdad (70+, smoker and needing help care several times per day) has tested positive for corona. So most likely my mum has it as well but not allowed to be tested as she’s not in a “risk group”. She’s not showing any symptoms either, so the advice in Sweden is - go to work as usual. Mind boggling advice imo.
		
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Sorry to read that, good luck to them both and let’s hope the advice works out well.


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## bluewolf (Apr 10, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Just got a call from my mum in Sweden confirming my stepdad (70+, smoker and needing help care several times per day) has tested positive for corona. So most likely my mum has it as well but not allowed to be tested as she’s not in a “risk group”. She’s not showing any symptoms either, so the advice in Sweden is - go to work as usual. Mind boggling advice imo.
		
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Hope he improves soon 👍


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## bluewolf (Apr 10, 2020)

Just broke the habit of a lifetime and rung the Police to break up a Party down the street. Half a dozen non family members walked past with crates of beer and BBQ necessities.

Let’s see what happens next....

Just call me Dan the Grass 🤣


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## JustOne (Apr 10, 2020)

Something that FINALLY need saying......


Downing Street has been forced to warn police officers against 'heavy-handed' lockdown tactics after officers admitted to prowling through supermarket aisles in a bid to catch shoppers buying 'non-essential' items.
Police forces across the country have been accused of being over-zealous in their Easter weekend crackdown as they threatened to check through people's shopping, causing #policestateUK to trend on Twitter.
The warning saw Downing Street warn police today that '*if a shop is open then it will sell whatever it has in stock*', while Home Secretary Priti Patel called on officers not to be 'heavy-handed' during the coronavirus lockdown.


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## hovis (Apr 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Just broke the habit of a lifetime and rung the Police to break up a Party down the street. Half a dozen non family members walked past with crates of beer and BBQ necessities.

Let’s see what happens next....

Just call me Dan the Grass 🤣
		
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when they get kicked out then sneak over the fence and steal their beer!!!


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## Slime (Apr 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Just broke the habit of a lifetime and rung the Police to break up a Party down the street. Half a dozen non family members walked past with crates of beer and BBQ necessities.

Let’s see what happens next....

Just call me Dan the Grass 🤣
		
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Well done Dan, it needs to be done.

I think anyone caught partying should have a temporary tattoo, maybe one that lasts three months, and if they subsequently test positive for Covid-19 they get quarantined and receive absolutely NO treatment.
Maybe a bit harsh, but they need to learn!!


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## harpo_72 (Apr 10, 2020)

Next door dropped around some kit for making masks. Left it for a period of time and spent this afternoon assembling some. Got a few more to do tomorrow so will crack on with it again.
Hopefully they will be helpful.


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## JustOne (Apr 10, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Next door dropped around some kit for making masks. Left it for a period of time and spent this afternoon assembling some. Got a few more to do tomorrow so will crack on with it again.
Hopefully they will be helpful.
		
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Helpful for who?


Edit: Sorry that sounds well harsh, I meant who are you making them for? yourself or someone else?


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## bluewolf (Apr 10, 2020)

Well, surprisingly, the Police turned up. Had a bit of a chat with them. Then left. Still 8-10 people there. Only 1 who actually lives there. Won’t make that mistake again then will I.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Just broke the habit of a lifetime and rung the Police to break up a Party down the street. Half a dozen non family members walked past with crates of beer and BBQ necessities.

Let’s see what happens next....

Just call me Dan the Grass 🤣
		
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Snitch


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Well, surprisingly, the Police turned up. Had a bit of a chat with them. Then left. Still 8-10 people there. Only 1 who actually lives there. Won’t make that mistake again then will I.
		
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Give your Police Commissioner a tweet, normal stirs someone's arrse.


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## Norrin Radd (Apr 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Well, surprisingly, the Police turned up. Had a bit of a chat with them. Then left. Still 8-10 people there. Only 1 who actually lives there. Won’t make that mistake again then will I.
		
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i assume you were ticked off with them because you werent invited .


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## bluewolf (Apr 10, 2020)

Norrin Radd said:



			i assume you were ticked off with them because you werent invited .

Click to expand...

Damn right. Looking at the women that were turning up and the amount of beer then I’d say it was gonna be a good one 😂


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry to read that, good luck to them both and let’s hope the advice works out well.
		
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Thanks. I don’t give much for the Swedish approach on the “advice” though. I told my mom to stay home and under no circumstances go to work even if she feels ok right now. 
Fingers crossed it’ll just pass without too much pain. 



bluewolf said:



			Hope he improves soon 👍
		
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Thanks
He doesn’t even feel sick - yet. Hoping it stays that way.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 10, 2020)

JustOne said:



			Helpful for who?


Edit: Sorry that sounds well harsh, I meant who are you making them for? yourself or someone else?
		
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Next door had a request from brum QE hospital for a hundred by next Thursday.. they are single use. So hopefully they meet requirements


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## pendodave (Apr 10, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Just got a call from my mum in Sweden confirming my stepdad (70+, smoker and needing help care several times per day) has tested positive for corona. So most likely my mum has it as well but not allowed to be tested as she’s not in a “risk group”. She’s not showing any symptoms either, so the advice in Sweden is - go to work as usual. Mind boggling advice imo.
		
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I'm sure that Swedish academics and politicians are the equal of ours. What's the general mood amongst the population?


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## Jacko_G (Apr 10, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Just broke the habit of a lifetime and rung the Police to break up a Party down the street. Half a dozen non family members walked past with crates of beer and BBQ necessities.

Let’s see what happens next....

Just call me Dan the Grass 🤣
		
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Just call you a pain in the ass never mind a grass!

😉


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm sure that Swedish academics and politicians are the equal of ours. What's the general mood amongst the population?
		
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Not at all. Sweden has taken the complete opposite approach to pretty much all other European countries. People are flocking at pubs and restaurants who has a license to be serving alcohol outside, no social distancing, sports (on amateur level) keep on training and playing friendlies, schools are open and as I said in my first post - my stepdad has just been confirmed positive with corona, and the advice my mum is getting, who lives with him, is to go to work as usual if she doesn’t have any symptoms. It’s quite clear at this point that people may be asymptomatic and still spread it. Unbelievable. But I may be wrong. Perhaps Sweden way of handling it is the correct way. Time will tell.


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

JustOne said:



			Something that FINALLY need saying......


Downing Street has been forced to warn police officers against 'heavy-handed' lockdown tactics after officers admitted to prowling through supermarket aisles in a bid to catch shoppers buying 'non-essential' items.
Police forces across the country have been accused of being over-zealous in their Easter weekend crackdown as they threatened to check through people's shopping, causing #policestateUK to trend on Twitter.
The warning saw Downing Street warn police today that '*if a shop is open then it will sell whatever it has in stock*', while Home Secretary Priti Patel called on officers not to be 'heavy-handed' during the coronavirus lockdown.
		
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Given the crass stupidity and downright recklessness of so many, I can assure you the police have been anything but heavy handed.

There have been a few stories reported in the press (The Daily Mail, if you believe a word that rag prints), which have painted the police in an appalling light. But that is what the Mail do, and what it’s readership whips itself into a frenzy over. The majority of those stories are, quite simply, click-bait rubbish.

I have seen the national briefings which are encouraging the police how to deal with this crisis and, to a huge extent, the response is what has been encouraged. Far from heavy handed, and they certainly haven’t been encouraged to search shopping trolleys. That is press inspired codswallop.

The response has been anything but over zealous. But over zealous is precisely what a lot of our great British public need, because they are too stupid to see what’s staring them in the face.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 10, 2020)

So today (according to Sky - didn't see any of the briefing as I was on way home - https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...9-in-england-bringing-total-to-8-114-11971619) we surpassed Italy and Spain for a daily death toll. It doesn't tie in with anything I am seeing at a local level. No new admissions today and one death (with a number of co-morbidities) yesterday

Given what I've seen as a snapshot on the way home this weekend is going to be farcical in terms of people going out and flouting the rules and so if the death toll was bad today, I can see it hitting four figures per day in about 12-21 days after Easter when the virus gets passed around. It's going to get a lot worse before any sign of any changes to the rules


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So today (according to Sky - didn't see any of the briefing as I was on way home - https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...9-in-england-bringing-total-to-8-114-11971619) we surpassed Italy and Spain for a daily death toll. It doesn't tie in with anything I am seeing at a local level. No new admissions today and one death (with a number of co-morbidities) yesterday

Given what I've seen as a snapshot on the way home this weekend is going to be farcical in terms of people going out and flouting the rules and so if the death toll was bad today, I can see it hitting four figures per day in about 12-21 days after Easter when the virus gets passed around. It's going to get a lot worse before any sign of any changes to the rules
		
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I’m more concerned about the 9000 new cases, but am hoping that is a by product of an increase in testing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m more concerned about the 9000 new cases, but am hoping that is a by product of an increase in testing.
		
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Hadn't seen that. Missed all of the briefing and only just catching up on the news. Was there any explanation?


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## DRW (Apr 10, 2020)

https://spectator.us/covid-antibody-test-german-town-shows-15-percent-infection-rate/

Small random antibody test undertaken and kind of reflects the cruise ship.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So today (according to Sky - didn't see any of the briefing as I was on way home - https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...9-in-england-bringing-total-to-8-114-11971619) we surpassed Italy and Spain for a daily death toll. It doesn't tie in with anything I am seeing at a local level. No new admissions today and one death (with a number of co-morbidities) yesterday

Given what I've seen as a snapshot on the way home this weekend is going to be farcical in terms of people going out and flouting the rules and so if the death toll was bad today, I can see it hitting four figures per day in about 12-21 days after Easter when the virus gets passed around. It's going to get a lot worse before any sign of any changes to the rules
		
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Have a look at the breakdown of the deaths:
Of the 866 recorded in England only 117 were recorded as happening yesterday, the remainder were from across the last week and a few from March.

Still very shocking, but also why looking at 1 day in isolation can be confusing.


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## Imurg (Apr 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m more concerned about the 9000 new cases, but am hoping that is a by product of an increase in testing.
		
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Quote...
Today's figures for positive tests have been adjusted to include positive case results from swab testing key workers and their households. These will be included in the daily figures from today. If these results were excluded from the figures the daily increase would have been 5195.
From Worldometers website..


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hadn't seen that. Missed all of the briefing and only just catching up on the news. Was there any explanation?
		
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Haven’t seen one, just the figures. And I think we’re all learning the figures don’t tell the whole story.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Have a look at the breakdown of the deaths:
Of the 866 recorded in England only 117 were recorded as happening yesterday, the remainder were from across the last week and a few from March.

Still very shocking, but also why looking at 1 day in isolation can be confusing.
		
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The thing is though it isn't one day. No admissions yesterday or today and only a couple in the days before that. Think we've had 2-3 deaths max in the last few days.


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The thing is though it isn't one day. No admissions yesterday or today and only a couple in the days before that. Think we've had 2-3 deaths max in the last few days.
		
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There’s clearly a lot of lag in the daily numbers. I prefer to read comments from the coal face, such as yours, as they put meat on the bones.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The thing is though it isn't one day. No admissions yesterday or today and only a couple in the days before that. Think we've had 2-3 deaths max in the last few days.
		
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The figures announced were one day, not what you are saying
 I believe everyday is similar and the figures are on catch up.
The overall deaths is still sadly frightening, regardless of when they occurred.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Next door dropped around some kit for making masks. Left it for a period of time and spent this afternoon assembling some. Got a few more to do tomorrow so will crack on with it again.
Hopefully they will be helpful.
		
Click to expand...

 I have a mate who is producing face masks, he and some colleagues have 3D printers and are making the frames then fitting the screens.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have a mate who is producing face masks, he and some colleagues have 3D printers and are making the frames then fitting the screens.
		
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We've picked up some made on a £D printer this afternoon. Only designed for one use only but will definitely take pressure of our diminishing stocks of the more robust models


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## chellie (Apr 10, 2020)

Hope everyone who has Covid-19 stays safe and well.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2020)

How does wearing protective gloves stop the spread of the virus unless you change them after touching something?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We've picked up some made on a 3D printer this afternoon. Only designed for one use only but will definitely take pressure of our diminishing stocks of the more robust models
		
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These look quite robust


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How does wearing protective gloves stop the spread of the virus unless you change them after touching something?
		
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Not sure how they help - especially as in the short term you might forget and touch your face. Also I understand that the virus does last long on any absorbent material as some aspect of it absorbed by the material.  So maybe that’s one thing about gloves that mean a pair won’t hold an infective virus for long.  It’s something like that.  

I still think it’s not a great idea to wear gloves when out and about.  When out just try and not touch any hard surface and don’t touch face then when home wash hands with soap thoroughly seems to be the order of the day, week and month or two...🙁


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure how they help - especially as in the short term you might forget and touch your face. Also I understand that the virus does last long on any absorbent material as some aspect of it absorbed by the material.  So maybe that’s one thing about gloves that mean a pair won’t hold an infective virus for long.  It’s something like that. 

I still think it’s not a great idea to wear gloves when out and about.  When out just try and not touch any hard surface and don’t touch face then when home wash hands with soap thoroughly seems to be the order of the day, week and month or two...🙁
		
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For some weird psychological reason you’re less likely to touch your face when you have gloves on. If you get an itch, without gloves on, you’ll rub with your fingers. If you have gloves on you’ll use the back of your wrist.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How does wearing protective gloves stop the spread of the virus unless you change them after touching something?
		
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To put it simply - it doesn't. I wear gloves when I go for our weekly shop. I drive to the supermarket, get out of the car and then put the gloves on. I get my trolley, join the queue and then go in to the supermarket to get whatever we need using the scan as you shop handset. Once I've finished I go to the checkout and take off one of my gloves so that I can use my free (ungloved) hand to get my wallet out and pay for my shopping. I then use the other hand to push the trolley to the car, unlock the car using my ungloved hand, and unload the shopping with my other hand. Once I've unloaded I'll take my trolley back and then take the other glove off and bin them both. When I get home I unload the shopping, unpack anything that has plastic packaging, wipe everything down, wash my hands and then put it away. And then wash my hands again. Maybe I'm going overboard with the precautions but I'd rather do that than risk passing the virus on to Mrs Colch who is at higher risk due to her asthma.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			To put it simply - it doesn't. I wear gloves when I go for our weekly shop. I drive to the supermarket, get out of the car and then put the gloves on. I get my trolley, join the queue and then go in to the supermarket to get whatever we need using the scan as you shop handset. Once I've finished I go to the checkout and take off one of my gloves so that I can use my free (ungloved) hand to get my wallet out and pay for my shopping. I then use the other hand to push the trolley to the car, unlock the car using my ungloved hand, and unload the shopping with my other hand. Once I've unloaded I'll take my trolley back and then take the other glove off and bin them both. When I get home I unload the shopping, unpack anything that has plastic packaging, wipe everything down, wash my hands and then put it away. And then wash my hands again. Maybe I'm going overboard with the precautions but I'd rather do that than risk passing the virus on to Mrs Colch who is at higher risk due to her asthma.
		
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So they do then if used properly!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 11, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Given the crass stupidity and downright recklessness of so many,* I can assure you the police have been anything but heavy handed.*

There have been a few stories reported in the press (The Daily Mail, if you believe a word that rag prints), which have painted the police in an appalling light. But that is what the Mail do, and what it’s readership whips itself into a frenzy over. The majority of those stories are, quite simply, click-bait rubbish.

I have seen the national briefings which are encouraging the police how to deal with this crisis and, to a huge extent, the response is what has been encouraged. Far from heavy handed, and *they certainly haven’t been encouraged to search shopping trolleys. That is press inspired codswallop.*

The response has been anything but over zealous. But over zealous is precisely what a lot of our great British public need, because they are too stupid to see what’s staring them in the face.
		
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At the coal face, maybe, but if these comments are correct then someone needs to have a word with him;

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...reatened-to-search-shoppers-trolleys-11971269

I don't want to join the knockers because I've been there and got that T-shirt, but that bloke has made a rod for all of your backs if the report is correct, and I've seen comments that Priti Patel has got involved because of them.


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## triple_bogey (Apr 11, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			The stricter borders controls should have been in place early January, and the blame lies directly with China and the WHO, they lied and covered up how bad the situation was.
China saying it couldn't be transmitted human, to human, while they had thousands of cases.
The WHO telling Trump his ban on flights from China was wrong, doctors being silenced in Wuhan, these were crimes against humanity and should not be forgotten.
		
Click to expand...

Oh please......

If there's anyone to blame, blame our leader. Blame the general public for not adhering to the staying indoors lock down.
Didn't the police just this week break up over 500+ house parties? That was just in Manchester alone.
We the UK as a country should be prepared for things like this. But instead we think we live in this perfect bubble and things won't affect us. Jesus, didn't the country come to a standstill when it snowed?

There's plenty of reports, China notified the WHO 31st Dec 2019, the WHO put out a statement around mid Jan for the world to brace itself. What was the UK talking/tweeting about around Jan/Feb? A gay presenter and one that committed suicide (RIP). 

The WHO had reported that *Preliminary investigations have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission.* So they wasn't 100% sure at the time. For all they knew it could had been unusually high cases of the flu. 
Reason why the WHO damned Trump over the flights from China was Trump was only banning chinese people. The Covid_19 infects all races. It doesn't discriminate. 

So by what you're saying, the US should be held accountable for the Swine Flu circa 2009.....you go research that and see how many cases and deaths there.

This virus could had started anywhere, its up to the country, its government and its people how to handle it together instead of passing blame.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			So they do then if used properly!
		
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Yes, absolutely. Unfortunately there are a large number of people in this country that are too stupid to use them correctly. Just like there are too many that are too stupid to follow the advice to stay at home.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes, absolutely. Unfortunately there are a large number of people in this country that are too stupid to use them correctly. Just like there are too many that are too stupid to follow the advice to stay at home.
		
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I'm actually in the same position as you and my wife has asthma so I do the shopping and follow pretty much the same method. All the gloves do is act as a disposable barrier they don't kill the virus as it seems some people imagine if you go by how they use them


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## Fish (Apr 11, 2020)

I did over 50 deliveries to pharmacies on Thursday morning all over Coventry & Warwickshire, then 60 bread boxes to vulnerable peoples homes in the afternoon & night, it’s extremely difficult to protect yourself fully, putting gloves on & off when handling items, using my gel when back in the van, it’s an impossible routine without going to extremes, and even then there’s always going to be some cross contamination to a degree. 

Everyday I’m handling goods that I don’t have any history of on how they’ve been protected from previous contamination!

I protect myself as best I can, but changing my gloves for every delivery I handle would see me get through 100+ gloves a day, then along with a face mask, which I’ve now run out of, I simply can’t afford to keep buying the PPE at the extortionate prices out there now.  

I deliver a lot of prescriptions into pharmacies within supermarkets and the queues at some are enormous, ok I understand everyone is 2m apart and it’s only so many in & out, but I’ve been using my local mini market and always walked straight in!  

With people not having to wait until the weekend to do a main shop, I’m surprised by the daily long queues, I’d have thought they’d be much less as people can shop throughout the week?

But looking at so many without any protection in the queues who are possibly handling items that they may not buy, I think the supermarkets and all shops should adopt a policy of everyone wearing PPE or you can’t enter! 

The Kenny Dalgliesh story needs more visibility, in that, he wasn’t showing and still isn’t showing any symptoms, but he’s been tested positive, so unbeknown to him, he was potentially a carrier! 

I know he was self isolating, but there are too many people out & about thinking they’re ok but are possibly infecting people, this message really needs to be drummed in more and PPE worn when out enforced.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 11, 2020)

The info on Kenny Dalglish is out there. 

_*Sir Kenny was admitted to hospital on Wednesday April 8 for treatment of an infection which required intravenous antibiotics. *_
*
In keeping with current procedures, he was subsequently tested for COVID-19 despite having previously displayed no symptoms of the illness. Unexpectedly, the test result was positive but he remains asymptomatic. 
*
_*Prior to his admission to hospital, Sir Kenny had chosen to voluntarily self-isolate for longer than the advised period together with his family. He would urge everyone to follow the relevant government and expert guidance in the days and weeks ahead. *_


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## Fish (Apr 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			The info on Kenny Dalglish is out there. 

_*Sir Kenny was admitted to hospital on Wednesday April 8 for treatment of an infection which required intravenous antibiotics. *_
*
In keeping with current procedures, he was subsequently tested for COVID-19 despite having previously displayed no symptoms of the illness. Unexpectedly, the test result was positive but he remains asymptomatic. 
*
_*Prior to his admission to hospital, Sir Kenny had chosen to voluntarily self-isolate for longer than the advised period together with his family. He would urge everyone to follow the relevant government and expert guidance in the days and weeks ahead. *_

Click to expand...

I know, but not everyone lives on social media, and the news haven’t really pushed it, well not what I’ve seen anyway. 

His story will potentially be alike to many others, who think they’re ok because they’re not displaying symptoms, but just like KK, it doesn’t mean you haven’t got it, so I’d like to see factual stories like this pumped out more.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 11, 2020)

Fish said:



			I know, but not everyone lives on social media, and the news haven’t really pushed it, well not what I’ve seen anyway.

His story will potentially be alike to many others, who think they’re ok because they’re not displaying symptoms, but just like KK, it doesn’t mean you haven’t got it, so I’d like to see factual stories like this pumped out more.
		
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1000 Died yesterday and nothing was mentioned, it was all about Johnson and Govt.....its how the media work these days. 

The biggest issue is lack of testing, until that's sorted these cases will continue .


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## huds1475 (Apr 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Have a look at the breakdown of the deaths:
Of the 866 recorded in England only 117 were recorded as happening yesterday, the remainder were from across the last week and a few from March.

Still very shocking, but also why looking at 1 day in isolation can be confusing.
		
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The numbers could be explained better


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## MegaSteve (Apr 11, 2020)

I live fairly adjacent to a local 'beauty spot' and on any other bank holiday, basking in sunshine, the road I live on would be rammed with vehicles of visitors to the lido... Happy to report, the road was empty and the same, relatively speaking, could be said of the lido... Doubt that will make the press as it doesn't fit the message that folk aren't listening to the 'rules'...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 11, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			To put it simply - it doesn't. I wear gloves when I go for our weekly shop. I drive to the supermarket, get out of the car and then put the gloves on. I get my trolley, join the queue and then go in to the supermarket to get whatever we need using the scan as you shop handset. Once I've finished I go to the checkout and take off one of my gloves so that I can use my free (ungloved) hand to get my wallet out and pay for my shopping. I then use the other hand to push the trolley to the car, unlock the car using my ungloved hand, and unload the shopping with my other hand. Once I've unloaded I'll take my trolley back and then take the other glove off and bin them both. When I get home I unload the shopping, unpack anything that has plastic packaging, wipe everything down, wash my hands and then put it away. And then wash my hands again. Maybe I'm going overboard with the precautions but I'd rather do that than risk passing the virus on to Mrs Colch who is at higher risk due to her asthma.
		
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Similar to this

However I'll keep the gloves on, I have already pre taken my credit card out before leaving and placing at easy access.

Scan as shop etc 

When back at car gloves off take shopping into boot. Return trolly 

I have hand gel in car (dad managed to get me some 85% proof from some chemist) so quick spray of that 

I Dettol my steering wheel etc when I get home anyways 

Unload shopping , wash hands. Shower and change into home clothes 

Other time I'll use gloves is for fuel . Get the credit card out in car and use etc 

I have a pair of leather gloves I use to press to get into work carpark .. they get sprayed down when I get home.

Prob doesn't do anything


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## MegaSteve (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How does wearing protective gloves stop the spread of the virus unless you change them after touching something?
		
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I wear, when out, both gloves and a mask... Not sure if it helps with protection from the virus... More, in hope, it's sending out a message of respect my space...


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 11, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			Oh please......

If there's anyone to blame, blame our leader. Blame the general public for not adhering to the staying indoors lock down.
Didn't the police just this week break up over 500+ house parties? That was just in Manchester alone.
We the UK as a country should be prepared for things like this. But instead we think we live in this perfect bubble and things won't affect us. Jesus, didn't the country come to a standstill when it snowed?

There's plenty of reports, China notified the WHO 31st Dec 2019, the WHO put out a statement around mid Jan for the world to brace itself. What was the UK talking/tweeting about around Jan/Feb? A gay presenter and one that committed suicide (RIP).

The WHO had reported that *Preliminary investigations have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission.* So they wasn't 100% sure at the time. For all they knew it could had been unusually high cases of the flu.
Reason why the WHO damned Trump over the flights from China was Trump was only banning chinese people. The Covid_19 infects all races. It doesn't discriminate.

So by what you're saying, the US should be held accountable for the Swine Flu circa 2009.....you go research that and see how many cases and deaths there.

This virus could had started anywhere, its up to the country, its government and its people how to handle it together instead of passing blame.
		
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This virus could have started anywhere! We know where it started and it was dealt with in the usual Chinese way by secrecy and crush those trying to tell the truth.
  Chinese doctors and others who've mysteriously disappeared will testify to that but for some reason they can't!
As they say you can fool some of the people some of the time, so if you want to defend what comes out of a abhorrent state like China and a WHO who spend the vast majority of funding on Jollie's around the world, feel free to do so.
I have said all I'm saying on this.


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## User20204 (Apr 11, 2020)

I'm surprised any of you lot leave the house the state you're getting yourselves in


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## Doodle (Apr 11, 2020)

So where do we go from here?
It looks as though the Government is contemplating a partial lifting of the lockdown in the next 4 - 6 weeks.
Still keeping social distancing in place & limits on numbers of people admitted to all premises.

The economy is going to be in a right state after all of this.
No realistic chance of a vaccine for 18 months to 2 years.
How about sport in general & obviously our sport?
Will we be allowed back out with restrictions or will courses remain shut?
My club, possible like most can probably withstand a 3 month lay off, but if this goes on past this summer, then I fear not many clubs would survive.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 11, 2020)

Unfortunately some of us can't leave the house, be thankful your not in that position.


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## User20204 (Apr 11, 2020)

Doodle said:



			So where do we go from here?
It looks as though the Government is contemplating a partial lifting of the lockdown in the next 4 - 6 weeks.
Still keeping social distancing in place & limits on numbers of people admitted to all premises.

The economy is going to be in a right state after all of this.
No realistic chance of a vaccine for 18 months to 2 years.
How about sport in general & obviously our sport?
Will we be allowed back out with restrictions or will courses remain shut?
My club, possible like most can probably withstand a 3 month lay off, but if this goes on past this summer, then I fear not many clubs would survive.
		
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Well we can't have an indefinite lockdown, it doesn't cure anything.
The economy at some point will have to over rule the health risk.
It will only be a matter of time before things have to get going again.
Problem is, there is no exit strategy.


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## User20205 (Apr 11, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm surprised any of you lot leave the house the state you're getting yourselves in 

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Agreed. I’m not sure what’s more dangerous. The virus or the hype driven perception of the virus. Subject to being in a high risk group etc


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## Slab (Apr 11, 2020)

Why are some media spouting rot that 9 out of 10 being compliant to the lockdown is somehow good!

Yup that means that only 5 or 6 million people in the UK are not compliant

Over 5 million spangles roaming around helping the spread..... Result!!


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2020)

Doodle said:



			No realistic chance of a vaccine for 18 months to 2 years.
		
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I think Sarah Gilbert is a bit more optimistic  

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...-as-september-according-to-scientist-11971804


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## User20204 (Apr 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			Why are some media spouting rot that 9 out of 10 being compliant to the lockdown is somehow good!

Yup that means that only 5 or 6 million people in the UK are not compliant

Over 5 million spangles roaming around helping the spread..... Result!!
		
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What did you expect, 100% ? If you did then you're a bigger fool than those that aren't complying.


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## Billysboots (Apr 11, 2020)

There is a plus side to all this. My back garden is looking awesome - the lawn has had its first Saturday morning cut in living memory


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 11, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Well we can't have an indefinite lockdown, it doesn't cure anything.
The economy at some point will have to over rule the health risk.
It will only be a matter of time before things have to get going again.
Problem is, there is no exit strategy.
		
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It's a bit harsh to say there is no exit policy, I'm sure every avenue is being explored.
We need to see what the coming weeks bring, how lockdown in other countries weeks ahead of us is progressing.
I'm sure the powers that be are working day and night on the best outcome to minimise the fatality rate.
We just need to hang in, and I realise it's a lot harder for some than others.
As for the idiots who still want to wander about their the type who eat their McDonald's and throw the rubbish out the car window, you can't legislate for them


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## Slab (Apr 11, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			What did you expect, 100% ? If you did then you're a bigger fool than those that aren't complying.
		
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Is it wrong to belive therre should be less than 5 million planks in the UK


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## User20205 (Apr 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			Is it wrong to belive therre should be less than 5 million planks in the UK
		
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I reckon there are a lot more than 5 million planks. That said, I see hardly any flouting of the rules, other than that shown in the media


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## User20204 (Apr 11, 2020)

Slab said:



			Is it wrong to belive therre should be less than 5 million planks in the UK
		
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I see the problem being it's lockdown lite which allows others to interpret things their own way but as long as people are human that will happen.


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## User20204 (Apr 11, 2020)

therod said:



			I reckon there are a lot more than 5 million planks. That said, I see hardly any flouting of the rules, other than that shown in the media
		
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Agreed, can't say I've seen much of it but I don't live in densely populated London


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## Doodle (Apr 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think Sarah Gilbert is a bit more optimistic 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...-as-september-according-to-scientist-11971804

Click to expand...

Even if a vaccine is found in double quick time it will still need to be fully tested, that will take time.
It has be be mass produced.
66 million peeps in this country alone, similar populations in France, Italy & Germany.
A massive undertaking, so given all that I think 18 months to 2 years could be about right.


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## Hobbit (Apr 11, 2020)

4 full weeks of lockdown as of today. Not even allowed outside the gate as a couple. Extended to the 26th April, and an expressed intention to extend it 2 weeks further. Following that, a staged un-lockdown with various restrictions being lifted slowly. How those restrictions will pan out depends on how the numbers look over the next 4 weeks. 

One being considered is no organised sport till September...


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 11, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			It's a bit harsh to say there is no exit policy, I'm sure every avenue is being explored.
We need to see what the coming weeks bring, how lockdown in other countries weeks ahead of us is progressing.
I'm sure the powers that be are working day and night on the best outcome to minimise the fatality rate.
We just need to hang in, and I realise it's a lot harder for some than others.
*As for the idiots who still want to wander about their the type who eat their McDonald's and throw the rubbish out the car window, you can't legislate for them*

Click to expand...



Perhaps you could but there will be those who would cry foul. It might upset someone.


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## User62651 (Apr 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			4 full weeks of lockdown as of today. Not even allowed outside the gate as a couple. Extended to the 26th April, and an expressed intention to extend it 2 weeks further. Following that, a staged un-lockdown with various restrictions being lifted slowly. How those restrictions will pan out depends on how the numbers look over the next 4 weeks.

One being considered is no organised sport till September...
		
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sorry to hear that, must be difficult, everyone climbing the walls. Getting hotter there now too, have you hit 30c yet? AC on half the day?
Have you a private pool you can use?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 11, 2020)

So another weekend where I'm not planning around what sport is on TV. It's weird how I've become used to that so quickly and don't even think about it anymore. The Premier League thread holds little interest and having gone from "call the season null and void as it will be hilarious if Liverpool don't win the Premier League again" to "whatever, declare them Champions now...or not...indifferent to it all".

Perhaps that should be in the "What Afterwards" thread as I wonder how much interest I'll feel once it's back to normal.

Having been so disciplined and annoyed at those not obeying social distancing I completely forgot all about it when we passed a couple walking a labrador pup this morning. I think they were keen for it to get some socialisation, without the distance, from Daisy but I clean forgot and went straight in for a cuddle with it so only a short lead distance from the owner. When I realised I felt terrible.


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## Doodle (Apr 11, 2020)

Those that say there is no exit strategy?
I disagree, it seems to me that the plan all along has been to impose to lockdown to allow the time to build the Nightingale hospitals, then to have a partial lifting of the lockdown.
All the while hoping that either an existing drug would be found to effectively treat the virus or a vaccine could be developed.
Otherwise, why build the Nightingale hospitals?


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## User20204 (Apr 11, 2020)

Doodle said:



			Those that say there is no exit strategy?
I disagree, it seems to me that the plan all along has been to impose to lockdown to allow the time to build the Nightingale hospitals, then to have a partial lifting of the lockdown.
All the while hoping that either an existing drug would be found to effectively treat the virus or a vaccine could be developed.
Otherwise, why build the Nightingale hospitals?
		
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I think you're deluded. 

The only exit strategy is coming out of lockdown. There will be no vaccine for approx 18 months they say.


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## Hobbit (Apr 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			sorry to hear that, must be difficult, everyone climbing the walls. Getting hotter there now too, have you hit 30c yet? AC on half the day?
Have you a private pool you can use?
		
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We're out on the terrace most days, usually with a good book and Richart's playlist. Had a few days now where we've had to put the parasol up as temps in the sun have hit mid 30's. We've not got our own pool but we wouldn't be in the community pool till mid/late May.

Today will be our 3rd Saturday community singalong. One of our neighbours used to do the bars, and has all the kit. The BBQ is about to go on, and we'll have some decent banter with neighbours.


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2020)

Doodle said:



			Even if a vaccine is found in double quick time it will still need to be fully tested, that will take time.
It has be be mass produced.
66 million peeps in this country alone, similar populations in France, Italy & Germany.
A massive undertaking, so given all that I think 18 months to 2 years could be about right.
		
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Human trials to begin within the next 2 weeks.
And we don't need to wait for 66 million doses, we just need enough to treat those people who are high risk and maybe stop so many people from dying which in my book is good news


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## Doodle (Apr 11, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I think you're deluded.

The only exit strategy is coming out of lockdown. There will be no vaccine for approx 18 months they say.
		
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Deluded?
How is what I said deluded?
I except a vaccine is 18 months to 2 years away.
Once we come out of lockdown, even with extra measures put in place, infections will most likely soar again.
Hence building the Nightingale hospitals.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 11, 2020)

Had a lovely lockdown picnic (in the garden) with the wife and little lady 

Making most of the lovely weather 

Nap time (more quiet time these days lol she doesn't nap just Lays down) and Netflix for us


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Human trials to begin within the next 2 weeks.
And we don't need to wait for 66 million doses, we just need enough to treat those people who are high risk and maybe stop so many people from dying which in my book is good news
		
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What I read is they can start mass production before the trials are finished and if it's good news then they have a head start. What is there to lose.


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## drdel (Apr 11, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm surprised any of you lot leave the house the state you're getting yourselves in 

Click to expand...

On a 'normal' day in January about 1,750 die; not sure how many of those deaths might now be coded as covid19 victims so would have died anyway: so looks like the virus is raising the death rate by about 30+%.

Unfortunately the fact is that this new virus is well established in the global population and a lot people will continue to die for many more months. If one wanted to be ruthlessly economic it might soon be 'cheaper' to lift restrictions on companies/work once the NHS capacity has risen. Then we assume that those who unfortunately catch the virus seriously can hopefully be given adequate care and the death rate kept as low as 'practical' until the vaccine can be rolled out to give longer term mitigation and 'control' fatalities.


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## JustOne (Apr 11, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Given the crass stupidity and downright recklessness of so many, I can assure you the police have been anything but heavy handed.
		
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I'm not complaining about the police although there have been a few instances that I wouldn't necessarily agree with.
My post was just how much complaining/whinging/press coverage we see about people leaving shops with tins of paint etc
If the government says that *it's OK for a shop to sell whatever stock it has on it's shelves*, then it should be OK.

Yes you could question the necessity of the journey but technically as long as everyone is observing social distancing rules it shouldn't boost the spread of corona regardless of how many tins of paint/compost/plants/BBQs are being bought right now.


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## Slime (Apr 11, 2020)

As above.
If the authorities don't want us to buy non-essential items, just stop the shops from selling them.
Job done.
It really is that simple ................................ isn't it?


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## Fish (Apr 11, 2020)

JustOne said:



			I'm not complaining about the police although there have been a few instances that I wouldn't necessarily agree with.
My post was just how much complaining/whinging/press coverage we see about people leaving shops with tins of paint etc
If the government says that *it's OK for a shop to sell whatever stock it has on it's shelves*, then it should be OK.

Yes you could question the necessity of the journey but technically as long as everyone is observing social distancing rules it shouldn't boost the spread of corona regardless of how many tins of paint/compost/plants/BBQs are being bought right now.
		
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It’s not just the journey, it’s the amount of products in those stores that get picked up, you touch and put back on the shelf, only for someone else then to pick them up, that’s possibly loads of potential cross contamination!!


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## JustOne (Apr 11, 2020)

Doodle said:



			Those that say there is no exit strategy?
I disagree, it seems to me that the plan all along has been to impose to lockdown to allow the time to build the Nightingale hospitals, then to have a partial lifting of the lockdown.
All the while hoping that either an existing drug would be found to effectively treat the virus or a vaccine could be developed.
Otherwise, why build the Nightingale hospitals?
		
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I'm not sure the numbers add up right now for ANY exit strategy however my suggestion of why build the nightingales is so that we can put corona cases in them so that 'normal' hospitals are able to resume their normal practice (operations, cancer treatment etc)


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## JustOne (Apr 11, 2020)

Fish said:



			It’s not just the journey, it’s the amount of products in those stores that get picked up, you touch and put back on the shelf, only for someone else then to pick them up, that’s possibly loads of potential cross contamination!!
		
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I agree, I work in one of those places, but I can wear golves, wash my hands etc

If staff AND customers behave correctly there is no difference someone coming to buy a tin of paint as there is someone coming to buy paracetamol.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

Doodle said:



			Deluded?
How is what I said deluded?
I except a vaccine is 18 months to 2 years away.
Once we come out of lockdown, even with extra measures put in place, infections will most likely soar again.
Hence building the Nightingale hospitals.
		
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I read an article today that a research team at oxford university are now 80% sure that a vaccine they have developed could possibly be available by September this year.

Just found it :
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/news...-coronavirus-vaccine-by-september/ar-BB12tjDy


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I read an article today that a research team at oxford university are now 80% sure that a vaccine they have developed could possibly be available bu September this year.
		
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IIRC didn't the development of a vaccine for Ebola get fastracked to be available long before the normal timeline?
In circumstances like these you can bet that bureaucratic "steps" are put aside and a vaccine will be pushed as hard as the science will allow.
As in war," routine "people whose views did dictate the pace , are replaced .
Necessity is.......etc


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## Fish (Apr 11, 2020)

JustOne said:



			I agree, I work in one of those places, but I can wear golves, wash my hands etc

If staff AND customers behave correctly there is no difference someone coming to buy a tin of paint as there is someone coming to buy paracetamol.
		
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But wearing gloves all the time isn’t a deterrent, as you’d still potentially spread it by touching multiple items wearing the same gloves!  

Gloves are not sterile to the virus, they simply allow you to handle something safely then you remove them afterwards. 

This is an issue I have doing multiple deliveries, do I put on a new pair of gloves for each delivery?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			IIRC didn't the development of a vaccine for Ebola get fastracked to be available long before the normal timeline?
In circumstances like these you can bet that bureaucratic "steps" are put aside and a vaccine will be pushed as hard as the science will allow.
As in war," routine "people whose views did dictate the pace , are replaced .
Necessity is.......etc
		
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Someone at work (who reads into a lot of this stuff) was telling me is something to do with a vaccine that was in development for SARRS (or swine flu) but as it got to trial stages it was shelved as the virus died out 

So as they are all a form of coronvirus they share a lot of the same characteristics so they started with it again to test or something on those lines


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 11, 2020)

Hand washing, if everyone thoroughly washed their hands before shopping they won't contaminate anything unless they have the virus.
When I was shopping I had antibacterial wipes and a disinfectant spray in the car hands were cleaned and trolley handle cleaned on entering shop and same on leaving.
That should be the norm.


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I read an article today that a research team at oxford university are now 80% sure that a vaccine they have developed could possibly be available by September this year.

Just found it :
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/news...-coronavirus-vaccine-by-september/ar-BB12tjDy

Click to expand...

See post no. 4928
Sadly the vaccine experts on here said it would still take 18 months to 2 years before a vaccine could be found.
Given the choice and being an optimist, I'll go with Sara Gilbert, Professor of vaccinology at Oxford University.


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## BrianM (Apr 11, 2020)

An up and down day for me, no energy or appetite all morning and early afternoon.
Feel slightly better now and ordered some dinner.
Have been told company aren’t bothered about getting me tested as I’m in self isolation anyway.....
Another boy got tested on Thursday and is positive as well.
We have also made the Press and Journal newspaper. 😂😂


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 11, 2020)

I hear Priti Patel was on the daily update today.  Missed it myself so could anyone confirm that she managed to get through it without threatening to deport many of the people that are keeping this country going at the moment?  Also hear Rees-Mogg is lined up for one next week where he will share some investment opportunities he's noticed among the death and misery.  Every cloud and all that.


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## Mudball (Apr 11, 2020)

Did 



Hacker Khan said:



			I hear Priti Patel was on the daily update today.  Missed it myself so could anyone confirm that she managed to get through it without threatening to deport many of the people that are keeping this country going at the moment?  Also hear Rees-Mogg is lined up for one next week where he will share some investment opportunities he's noticed among the death and misery.  Every cloud and all that.
		
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Did not know that Deport Patel was on today... will have to find out on iplayer


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## Old Skier (Apr 11, 2020)

Fish said:



			But wearing gloves all the time isn’t a deterrent, as you’d still potentially spread it by touching multiple items wearing the same gloves! 

Gloves are not sterile to the virus, they simply allow you to handle something safely then you remove them afterwards.

This is an issue I have doing multiple deliveries, do I put on a new pair of gloves for each delivery?
		
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## pauljames87 (Apr 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 29877

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I saw one other day at petrol pump 

One glove only 

Then used his non gloved hand to do the chip and pin in the pay at machine 

Oh because nobody touched that


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## Old Skier (Apr 11, 2020)

PPE in the hands of the untrained is as dangerous as no PPE


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## User62651 (Apr 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Did

Did not know that Deport Patel was on today... will have to find out on iplayer
		
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Surprising myself but I thought she was pretty good to be fair, I've not seen much of her before but she was an awful lot better than Raab. She chaired well and had a confident demeanour imo. Also managed a roundabout apology re PPE. What is most annoying is the greedy journalists always try and get 2 or 3 Q's in instead of 1 good one. That seems to leave wriggle room as the panel  answer one Q with a long explanation then move onto the next journo.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I hear Priti Patel was on the daily update today.  Missed it myself so could anyone confirm that she managed to get through it without threatening to deport many of the people that are keeping this country going at the moment?  Also hear Rees-Mogg is lined up for one next week where he will share some investment opportunities he's noticed among the death and misery.  Every cloud and all that.
		
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She spoke very well, why not try a catchup on it before issueing the vitriolic outpouring of divisive bile above, or am I misinterpreting your well honed sarcastic attributes.  How about we give the Government a modicum of support in these very difficult circumstances.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...tre-only-conducting-1500-tests-a-day-11971991
How about we hold them to account as to why they've dropped this almighty bollock and left us scrambling behind other better prepared nations.


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## User20205 (Apr 11, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Surprising myself but I thought she was pretty good to be fair, I've not seen much of her before but she was an awful lot better than Raab. She chaired well and had a confident demeanour imo. Also managed a roundabout apology re PPE. What is most annoying is the greedy journalists always try and get 2 or 3 Q's in instead of 1 good one. That seems to leave wriggle room as the panel  answer one Q with a long explanation then move onto the next journo.
		
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I did watch it. She’s awful. She brings a new level of nonsense to her answers to any questioning. Most politicians can’t answer a direct question but her waffle can only be construed as lack of preparation or understanding. 
Do you not see the irony of her supporting those very workers that she was castigating 6 weeks ago?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

therod said:



			I did watch it. She’s awful. She brings a new level of nonsense to her answers to any questioning. Most politicians can’t answer a direct question but her waffle can only be construed as lack of preparation or understanding.
Do you not see the irony of her supporting those very workers that she was castigating 6 weeks ago?
		
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Oh, I must have been watching a different Daily briefing, in the one I watched she spoke well and seemed to give a good update and answer questions confidently.  Did you try removing your anti-conservative filters before watching?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...tre-only-conducting-1500-tests-a-day-11971991
How about we hold them to account as to why they've dropped this almighty bollock and left us scrambling behind other better prepared nations.
		
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What is it about ramping up tests you are struggling with?


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## User20205 (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh, I must have been watching a different Daily briefing, in the one I watched she spoke well and seemed to give a good update and answer questions confidently.  Did you try removing your anti-conservative filters before watching?
		
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No filter, she speaks terribly. Raab, Sunak & Hancock are much better, much more authoritative.
On a side note, why do you constantly seek to deflect by using some supposition to undermine a point of view? You have no idea re my political viewpoint. 
There are some very capable Tory politicians, our Home Secretary isn’t one of them. IMO of course


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What is it about ramping up tests you are struggling with?
		
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The bit where it's 6 weeks too late. Carry in defending the indefensible though.
Read the article


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## Mudball (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What is it about ramping up tests you are struggling with?
		
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I hear she struggled with her numbers... thank god not Abbot here 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248998239950508032


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I hear she struggled with her numbers... thank god not Abbot here 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248998239950508032

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I thought the same thing. Abbott would have (rightly in my opinion) been slaughtered for that but it's been strangely quiet on Patel's lack of basic numeracy.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The bit where it's 6 weeks too late. Carry in defending the indefensible though.
Read the article
		
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Ah ok, the government have a cunning plan to stop people being tested.  The technical logistics are fairly well beyond the governments control, who knows what issues the technicians may come across but let's not ruin a good Tory knocking oppertunity.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

therod said:



			No filter, she speaks terribly. Raab, Sunak & Hancock are much better, much more authoritative.
On a side note, why do you constantly seek to deflect by using some supposition to undermine a point of view? You have no idea re my political viewpoint.
There are some very capable Tory politicians, our Home Secretary isn’t one of them. IMO of course
		
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You honestly believe Raab speaks more confident than she does. Really !

Regarding undermining a point of view, isnt that normal when you believe it to be wrong?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I hear she struggled with her numbers... thank god not Abbot here


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1248998239950508032

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I was replying post #4,969.  Not sure what you are?


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Ah ok, the government have a cunning plan to stop people being tested.  The technical logistics are fairly well beyond the governments control, who knows what issues the technicians may come across but let's not ruin a good Tory knocking oppertunity.
		
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Don't be so ridiculous. They didn't start the logistics till Mid March, weeks too late. We had the capacity it needed co-coordinating. 
If you don't have a constructive reply as why they were so late to kick it off don't bother replying.
It's not an anti Tory conspiracy, they're in charge and are judged on the decisions they've made.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Don't be so ridiculous. They didn't start the logistics till Mid March, weeks too late. We had the capacity it needed co-coordinating.
If you don't have a constructive reply as why they were so late to kick it off don't bother replying.
It's not an anti Tory conspiracy, they're in charge and are judged on the decisions they've made.
		
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They and all the civil servants are obviously lagging behind your expert insight.   What experience do you have in setting up a major virus testing facility, is there a chance that they will be on track by the end of the month or do you and the person who wrote that article for sky news have some inside information showing the people setting it up are not doing it correctly.  
I'll tell you what, I'll give them a chance to do their best.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			They and all the civil servants are obviously lagging behind your expert insight.   What experience do you have in setting up a major virus testing facility, is there a chance that they will be on track by the end of the month or do you and the person who wrote that article for sky news have some inside information showing the people setting it up are not doing it correctly. 
I'll tell you what, I'll give them a chance to do their best.
		
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You've not read the article have you but are still going on the attack as is your style.
I do have some inside track on this and they've fallen behind where they should be which is having serious ramifications.


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## User20205 (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You honestly believe Raab speaks more confident than she does. Really !

Regarding undermining a point of view, isnt that normal when you believe it to be wrong?
		
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Yes & no. Not with assumptions to fit your narrative


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 11, 2020)

Am I alone in being incredulous at an advert I saw this evening on TV.
This doctor was asking people to " slip a note through a neighbours door offering your assistance ......etc"
No thank you!   I don't want any notes from anyone . How and when they touched it last , leaving perhaps the virus they don't know they have on it for me, is something I can well do without.
This advice implies that the virus cannot be passed via paper, which I understand is nonsense.  It can live on paper, cardboard etc etc for some while.
Or have I got it wrong?


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## IainP (Apr 11, 2020)

IainP said:



			I noticed that on booking sites like golfnow you could book tee times from Tuesday (14 April) onwards. I guess this is because no formal extension has been announced.
I think we all expect it, and maybe the Boris situation has delayed announcing a little. Agree it needs to happen soon.
		
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Probably means nothing at all, but no tee times now until the 4th of May.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			You've not read the article have you but are still going on the attack as is your style.
I do have some inside track on this and they've fallen behind where they should be which is having serious ramifications.
		
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Yes I read it but I treat editorials with caution, it's a good policy.
I am not attacking anything, that's a bit of an exaggeration, I am questioning your comments as I can see no evidence for them and that is my style. Please elucidate on your inside information.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2020)

therod said:



			Yes & no. Not with assumptions to fit your narrative
		
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Surely you have to base your narrative on your assumption in many cases.   I have assumed by my considerations something is so, I express my belief in that assumption.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes I read it but I treat editorials with caution, it's a good policy.
I am not attacking anything, that's a bit of an exaggeration, I am questioning your comments as I can see no evidence for them and that is my style. Please elucidate on your inside information.
		
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The DNA sequence fir Covid-19 was released by the Chinese in early Jan which meant the primer for the PCR would have been available mid Jan, all the other reagents are very bssic and readily avaible and produced in the UK. We have plenty of PCR machine capacity in the UK but its spread throughout Uni's and small labs or held by the main supplier ThermoFisher. We've made a strategic decision to go for centralised superhubs which have requisition PCR machines. This in itself has created some lag but the main issue is that the requisition didn't even start till Mid March and I know this because I have ex colleagues who work at Thermo.


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## Hobbit (Apr 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...tre-only-conducting-1500-tests-a-day-11971991
How about we hold them to account as to why they've dropped this almighty bollock and left us scrambling behind other better prepared nations.
		
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Absolutely hold them to account. Is now the time to do that? At this moment in time, or next week, what purpose would it be to do it then? Is there any real point of instigating a full on accounting process now? Should that distraction happen now?

And the labs in Milton Keynes still doesn't have enough fully trained staff for 100,000 tests per day. They don't have enough people for the 3 shift system yet, nor are all the current staff trained up yet. Mind you, there's still 19 days to reach that figure.

I'm all for holding them to account, including hanging Hancock if the promised figure isn't reached. But aren't we jumping the gun a little?


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Absolutely hold them to account. Is now the time to do that? At this moment in time, or next week, what purpose would it be to do it then? Is there any real point of instigating a full on accounting process now? Should that distraction happen now?

And the labs in Milton Keynes still doesn't have enough fully trained staff for 100,000 tests per day. They don't have enough people for the 3 shift system yet, nor are all the current staff trained up yet. Mind you, there's still 19 days to reach that figure.

I'm all for holding them to account, including hanging Hancock if the promised figure isn't reached. But aren't we jumping the gun a little?
		
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Maybe the decision to have superhubs when all the trained staff and machines are spread far and wide wasn't such a good choice then? They've requisitioned the machines but your can't centralise all the trained biomedics.


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## Hobbit (Apr 11, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Maybe the decision to have superhubs when all the trained staff and machines are spread far and wide wasn't such a good choice then? They've requisitioned the machines but your can't centralise all the trained biomedics.
		
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Maybe you're right, but as I said is now the time for a, "I told you so discussion?" I don't doubt there'll be a number of errors identified, some of those will be from the perfect viewpoint of hindsight but, personally, I'm for sorting the problem that there's now and not wasting time and resources on something that will happen anyway when this madness is over.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you're right, but as I said is now the time for a, "I told you so discussion?" I don't doubt there'll be a number of errors identified, some of those will be from the perfect viewpoint of hindsight but, personally, I'm for sorting the problem that there's now and not wasting time and resources on something that will happen anyway when this madness is over.
		
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Maybe a good reason for questioning some of the decisions made now is there will be other major ones to be made in the future and if the government have potentially got some big ones wrong now they should be looking at who is advising them going forward.
They've made great decisions with regarding the financial support package and have been rightly praised (even though my wife and I both have Ltd companies and are getting the square root of @#$k all) and so with the praise should come the scrutiny in real time. No point in flagging it after the event.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Maybe a good reason for questioning some of the decisions made now is there will be other major ones to be made in the future and if the government have potentially got some big ones wrong now they should be looking at who is advising them going forward.
They've made great decisions with regarding the financial support package and have been rightly praised (even though my wife and I both have Ltd companies and are getting the square root of @#$k all) and so with the praise should come the scrutiny in real time. No point in flagging it after the event.
		
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Why cant you see it, or dont you want to.  Its work in progress and you dont understand what logistics are being undertaken.  Sounds to me you have hidden agendas.


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## JustOne (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			You've not read the article have you but are still going on the attack as is your style.
I do have some inside track on this and they've fallen behind where they should be which is having serious ramifications.
		
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What serious ramifications?
You test a nurse, she doesn't have it, so? She's still going to go to work where she is possibly then going to catch it.... and you have achieved what exactly?

The (apparently expert) article says that 200K - 300K test are needed each day, at that rate it would take the best part of a year to test the population of the UK.
So with that FACT what serious ramifications are we facing that we could change/fix?

If we COULD test the entire nation right now in ONE DAY, so what?.... what does that achieve? The virus isn't going away and those in total lockdown still can't come out.

I'm really trying to understand the 'seriousness' of your post/point/arguement and the aggression of your replies...... apart from you have a mate who gave you an opinion.


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## Paperboy (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Maybe a good reason for questioning some of the decisions made now is there will be other major ones to be made in the future and if the government have potentially got some big ones wrong now they should be looking at who is advising them going forward.
They've made great decisions with regarding the financial support package and have been rightly praised *(even though my wife and I both have Ltd companies and are getting the square root of @#$k all)* and so with the praise should come the scrutiny in real time. No point in flagging it after the event.
		
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Your only get nothing if you have no books for last year or have earnt over 50k. Well that's my understanding of it all!


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Wow, so many assumptions and political finger pointing, why are forums and social media boards always full of experts, who don’t truly know the facts, even if they have mates, ex employees or met someone in a supermarket queue who knows someone that knows someone that knows someone......

I’m involved or will be with the logistics of transporting viles, tests plus other undisclosed items to not just a central laboratory but across the country from a central hub which is still not, but is not far off being fully operational yet. 

Specific packing is needed for these tests, drivers checked & trained, specific signs/stickers for the van to identify the cargo, specific trackers are bing installed and in some cases a specific app is being downloaded by us, and the list goes on, and this is only the logistics side of collecting & delivering the tests, so a simple ‘man & van’ isn’t involved in this operation, it’s almost to military precision, and I’m being constantly updated on the situation and I’m primed now ready for the call/s to start. 

With the in-depth induction I’ve seen on the logistics side, I can’t imagine what it entails in the testing labs for when we start to turn up with 1000’s of tests daily from various regions! 

They and everyone involved in the chain needs to be fully ready for when this starts fully, if not the consequences of it failing, breaking down and not coping when the tests start to arrive plus covering all the ‘what ifs’ throughout the operation is paramount to get right before it goes into full operation, to push something too quickly into a life & death operation would be fool hardy. 

Everyday is a school day for this pandemic that could never be foreseen, and personally, I think everyone (all MP’s) aside of political favor are doing an excellent job when the cards are being constantly stacked against them.


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## bobmac (Apr 12, 2020)

Not forgetting the scientists who are working round the clock to come up with something that will help the whole world, because the whole world is going to need it.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Oh, and for all of you living in your perfect bubble and finger pointing, Im having to now carry a water container to wash just my hands after deliveries & to freshen up, which is not acceptable! 

I’m constantly complaining to companies who’s fuel stations have now closed their toilets & washrooms!

Some of us are out all day & overnight also, shame on them 😡

I’ve asked at some delivery points if I can use their toilets, and I’ve been flatly refused with an array of BS excuses!  

I’m having to use my hand gel sparingly now as it’s an expense I can’t keep forking out for, so I carry water & liquid soap, and I’m also reusing my masks, even though I’m delivering thousands, but I’m having to buy them to supply everyone else with their essential deliveries!

I’m having to buy all my own PPE 😟


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## Jacko_G (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedin
[QUOTE="Fish said:



			Oh, and for all of you living in your perfect bubble and finger pointing, Im having to now carry a water container to wash just my hands after deliveries & to freshen up, which is not acceptable!

I’m constantly complaining to companies who’s fuel stations have now closed their toilets & washrooms!

Some of us are out all day & overnight also, shame on them 😡

I’ve asked at some delivery points if I can use their toilets, and I’ve been flatly refused with an array of BS excuses! 

I’m having to use my hand gel sparingly now as it’s an expense I can’t keep forking out for, so I carry water & liquid soap, *and I’m also reusing my masks, even though I’m delivering thousands, but I’m having to buy them to supply everyone else with their essential deliveries!*

I’m having to buy all my own PPE 😟
		
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Make yourself a few that you can throw in the washing machine. Cut up an old cotton t-shirt or buy a cheap one and make a few. Very simple and effective.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why cant you see it, or dont you want to.  Its work in progress and you dont understand what logistics are being undertaken.  Sounds to me you have hidden agendas.
		
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I understand the logistics being undertaken my point is the button was pressed on them too late. The countries that have had better control over the spread who have had mass testing up and running much quicker. The virus spread isn't waiting for us to get our testing up to speed.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 12, 2020)

Paperboy said:



			Your only get nothing if you have no books for last year or have earnt over 50k. Well that's my understanding of it all!
		
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We both have limited companies which are set up to pay ourselves PAYE and dividends


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## Jacko_G (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I understand the logistics being undertaken my point is the button was pressed on them too late. The countries that have had better control over the spread who have had mass testing up and running much quicker. The virus spread isn't waiting for us to get our testing up to speed.
		
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Our testing only shows if you have the virus, therefore you could be tested on the Wednesday and be in the clear. By Friday you could pick up the virus but having been given the "all clear" on Wednesday be blissfully unaware you are now contagious and spreading the virus around.

Virus testing is only good up to a point. I can now get tested if I go off sick with symptoms so it clearly is in place (to an extent) for emergency workers etc. My work will book me in for a test.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			We both have limited companies which are set up to pay ourselves PAYE and dividends
		
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Which also can receive support, you need to do some better research.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 12, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Our testing only shows if you have the virus, therefore you could be tested on the Wednesday and be in the clear. By Friday you could pick up the virus but having been given the "all clear" on Wednesday be blissfully unaware you are now contagious and spreading the virus around.

Virus testing is only good up to a point. I can now get tested if I go off sick with symptoms so it clearly is in place (to an extent) for emergency workers etc. My work will book me in for a test.
		
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Once it's ramped up it will be useful for contact tracing. If you test positive but are asymptomatic they can test people you have been in contact with quickly and get them isolating before they show symptoms. This will be even more effective when the NHS app is rolled out which traces where you and your smartphone have been. If you've been in contact or in an area where someone positive has been it will ping you a text and tell you to isolate until tested.  
I believe the app has a red and green light system. If you've been in contact your light turns red until you're tested, if you're negative it goes green and you're free to carry on if not then stays red and you isolate. This will help us to begin start mingling again and for the authorities to understand where hotspots are occurring and maybe do more localised lockdowns


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Which also can receive support, you need to do some better research.
		
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My PAYE, which is minimal gets 80% support.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			She spoke very well, why not try a catchup on it before issueing the vitriolic outpouring of divisive bile above, or am I misinterpreting your well honed sarcastic attributes.  How about we give the Government a modicum of support in these very difficult circumstances.
		
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She spoke quite well - but her words and actions of the last few years cannot simply be dismissed or forgotten.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

therod said:



			I did watch it. She’s awful. She brings a new level of nonsense to her answers to any questioning. Most politicians can’t answer a direct question but her waffle can only be construed as lack of preparation or understanding. 
Do you not see the irony of her supporting those very workers that she was castigating 6 weeks ago?
		
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Irony and crass hypocrisy..


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			My PAYE, which is minimal gets 80% support.
		
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Right, you stated you got FA support, which isn’t fact then, you _chose_ to receive the minimum wage (one of 2 amounts) as a PAYE director.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Right, you stated you got FA support, which isn’t fact then, you _chose_ to receive the minimum wage (one of 2 amounts) as a PAYE director.
		
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It's a fraction of what furloughed employees and self employed workers are getting. The reason my company is set up as limited is because I work I work in a sector that can be litigious and it gives a separation between my personal assets (our house) and my business. I pay all our Corp Tax, VAT and dividends tax in full.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Mrs Hogie is convinced that there is going to be a significant exodus from the NHS as soon as the worse of this is over - especially amongst those at their NHS retirement age, but also many younger doctors and nurses with transferable skills who have suffered terrible stress, PTSD, exhaustion and fear for their own life and that of their closest.  This is not what they signed up for.

What do we do - she asks - to stop that happening - well she says what you don’t do is do a Hancock and impugn nurses and other care workers over inappropriate use of PPE - no matter if there is some evidence of it.  It will be tiny amount in the scheme of things and simply a diversion from lack of PPE and a failure to recognise the fear that many in any care setting live with at the moment.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It's a fraction of what furloughed employees and self employed workers are getting. The reason my company is set up as limited is because I work I work in a sector that can be litigious and it gives a separation between my personal assets (our house) and my business. I pay all our Corp Tax, VAT and dividends tax in full.
		
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I understand that, its a fraction but they pay into the system monthly, but you chose to pay yourself the minimum so you don't pay tax monthly and your NI won't kick-in until month 11 when the allowance kicks-in, that was your choice, you can't blame the government for that, you could have paid yourself a fuller wage outside of that allowance, but you chose not to!


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I understand that, its a fraction but they pay into the system monthly, but you chose to pay yourself the minimum so you don't pay tax monthly and your NI won't kick-in until month 11 when the allowance kicks-in, that was your choice, you can't blame the government for that, you could have paid yourself a fuller wage outside of that allowance, but you chose not to!
		
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And if I did I would be paying way more tax than a sole trader or PAYE employee because I would still be paying 20% Corp Tax.


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## User20205 (Apr 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely you have to base your narrative on your assumption in many cases.   I have assumed by my considerations something is so, I express my belief in that assumption.
		
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I hate to break it to you, but your assumption isn’t correct in this case.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs Hogie is convinced that there is going to be a significant exodus from the NHS as soon as the worse of this is over - especially amongst those at their NHS retirement age, but also many younger doctors and nurses with transferable skills who have suffered terrible stress, PTSD, exhaustion and fear for their own life and that of their closest.  This is not what they signed up for.

What do we do - she asks - to stop that happening - well she says what you don’t do is do a Hancock and impugn nurses and other care workers over inappropriate use of PPE - no matter if there is some evidence of it.  It will be tiny amount in the scheme of things and simply a diversion from lack of PPE and a failure to recognise the fear that many in any care setting live with at the moment.
		
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I expect that many, if not most, will take up their option to retire, and I do agree that many more will suffer from just being worn out and/or PTSD. However, just where will all the others that want to leave, leave for? Where will their "transferable skills" take them? 

As for Hancock criticising the troops; I agree it was a stupid move. But on the lack of PPE, or it being in the wrong place/not delivered. Just about everyone wants to blame the govt. I'm not defending them nor criticising them, although there may well be some culpability there. But just what is the process for a hospital to have enough PPE on-site? C'mon Hugh, you're a PM by trade. You know how this sort of thing works.

The hospitals recognise the need. The hospitals order the product from the supplier. The supplier is a private company, i.e. not the govt, and the supplier supplies the product. If a supplier determines they don't have enough stock, they either source more stock and/or ramp up production. Where are the govt culpable in that shortfall?


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## Jacko_G (Apr 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs Hogie is convinced that there is going to be a significant exodus from the NHS as soon as the worse of this is over - especially amongst those at their NHS retirement age, but also many younger doctors and nurses with transferable skills who have *suffered terrible stress, PTSD, exhaustion and fear for their own life and that of their closest.  This is not what they signed up for.*

What do we do - she asks - to stop that happening - well she says what you don’t do is do a Hancock and impugn nurses and other care workers over inappropriate use of PPE - no matter if there is some evidence of it.  It will be tiny amount in the scheme of things and simply a diversion from lack of PPE and a failure to recognise the fear that many in any care setting live with at the moment.
		
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The cynic in me says they signed up to care and save lives. 

You can also say the same for shop workers who get paid peanuts in comparison yet are dreadfully exposed every day, you can say the same for the transport workers and emergency services. This is a terrible terrible situation that grossly effects more than one group and no I'm not doing the NHS workers a disservice as they do an amazing job 365. Right now they're doing a phenominal job under extreme pressure. 

Then again so is the delivery driver, the ambulance driver, the bus driver etc.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I expect that many, if not most, will take up their option to retire, and I do agree that many more will suffer from just being worn out and/or PTSD. However, just where will all the others that want to leave, leave for? Where will their "transferable skills" take them?

As for Hancock criticising the troops; I agree it was a stupid move. But on the lack of PPE, or it being in the wrong place/not delivered. Just about everyone wants to blame the govt. I'm not defending them nor criticising them, although there may well be some culpability there. But just what is the process for a hospital to have enough PPE on-site? C'mon Hugh, you're a PM by trade. You know how this sort of thing works.

The hospitals recognise the need. The hospitals order the product from the supplier. The supplier is a private company, i.e. not the govt, and the supplier supplies the product. If a supplier determines they don't have enough stock, they either source more stock and/or ramp up production. Where are the govt culpable in that shortfall?
		
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Its all ordered and stock piled by the Trusts, then distributed when called off, according to budgets, it's the Trusts mainly that got caught out, the Govt don't order it or distribute it or are involved in the logistics, the trusts are!


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I expect that many, if not most, will take up their option to retire, and I do agree that many more will suffer from just being worn out and/or PTSD. *However, just where will all the others that want to leave, leave for? Where will their "transferable skills" take them?*

As for Hancock criticising the troops; I agree it was a stupid move. But on the lack of PPE, or it being in the wrong place/not delivered. Just about everyone wants to blame the govt. I'm not defending them nor criticising them, although there may well be some culpability there. But just what is the process for a hospital to have enough PPE on-site? C'mon Hugh, you're a PM by trade. You know how this sort of thing works.

The hospitals recognise the need. The hospitals order the product from the supplier. The supplier is a private company, i.e. not the govt, and the supplier supplies the product. If a supplier determines they don't have enough stock, they either source more stock and/or ramp up production. Where are the govt culpable in that shortfall?
		
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Like many before, they'll go to the agency's so they can earn more and have control more on what shifts they want to work. They won't leave per se imo, they'll just control where and when they want to work.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			The cynic in me says they signed up to care and save lives. 

You can also say the same for shop workers who get paid peanuts in comparison yet are dreadfully exposed every day, you can say the same for the transport workers and emergency services. This is a terrible terrible situation that grossly effects more than one group and no I'm not doing the NHS workers a disservice as they do an amazing job 365. Right now they're doing a phenominal job under extreme pressure. 

Then again so is the delivery driver, the ambulance driver, the bus driver etc.
		
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Indeed. Care and save lives, but I suggest that most who go into any form of heath care do not do so thinking they could be putting their own life at risk. Not in the NHS.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Wow, so many assumptions and political finger pointing, why are forums and social media boards always full of experts, who don’t truly know the facts, even if they have mates, ex employees or met someone in a supermarket queue who knows someone that knows someone that knows someone......

I’m involved or will be with the logistics of transporting viles, tests plus other undisclosed items to not just a central laboratory but across the country from a central hub which is still not, but is not far off being fully operational yet.

Specific packing is needed for these tests, drivers checked & trained, specific signs/stickers for the van to identify the cargo, specific trackers are bing installed and in some cases a specific app is being downloaded by us, and the list goes on, and this is only the logistics side of collecting & delivering the tests, so a simple ‘man & van’ isn’t involved in this operation, it’s almost to military precision, and I’m being constantly updated on the situation and I’m primed now ready for the call/s to start.

With the in-depth induction I’ve seen on the logistics side, I can’t imagine what it entails in the testing labs for when we start to turn up with 1000’s of tests daily from various regions!

They and everyone involved in the chain needs to be fully ready for when this starts fully, if not the consequences of it failing, breaking down and not coping when the tests start to arrive plus covering all the ‘what ifs’ throughout the operation is paramount to get right before it goes into full operation, to push something too quickly into a life & death operation would be fool hardy.

Everyday is a school day for this pandemic that could never be foreseen, and personally, I think everyone (all MP’s) aside of political favor are doing an excellent job when the cards are being constantly stacked against them.
		
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This is one excellent post which the likes of Starmer and Blunkett should read and then tell us what their knowledge of this situation is.
It's the same as mine - I don't know. I can only hope that this government will overcome the remendous odds stacked against them.
Don't tell me that it's Staamers job to be the Opposition and question and criticise. At a time like this , it isn't. His job is to offer every assistance and realise the *Country *is fighting a war, ffs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I expect that many, if not most, will take up their option to retire, and I do agree that many more will suffer from just being worn out and/or PTSD. However, just where will all the others that want to leave, leave for? Where will their "transferable skills" take them? 

As for Hancock criticising the troops; I agree it was a stupid move. But on the lack of PPE, or it being in the wrong place/not delivered. Just about everyone wants to blame the govt. I'm not defending them nor criticising them, although there may well be some culpability there. But just what is the process for a hospital to have enough PPE on-site? C'mon Hugh, you're a PM by trade. You know how this sort of thing works.

The hospitals recognise the need. The hospitals order the product from the supplier. The supplier is a private company, i.e. not the govt, and the supplier supplies the product. If a supplier determines they don't have enough stock, they either source more stock and/or ramp up production. Where are the govt culpable in that shortfall?
		
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I’m not judging the performance of government getting PPE sorted - my wife’s point is that it is not great to suggest that health and care workers are making things worse - especially when many are fearful for their life and health of their families - but continue to work as they must.


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## bobmac (Apr 12, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Then again so is the delivery driver, the ambulance driver, the bus driver etc.
		
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I agree, everyone is working flat out but the pressure on doctors and nurses must be immense as any mistake could cost someones life


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## USER1999 (Apr 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I agree, everyone is working flat out but the pressure on doctors and nurses must be immense as any mistake could cost someones life
		
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Yes, but Fish could crash his van.

Oops, he already has.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I agree, everyone is working flat out but the pressure on doctors and nurses must be immense as any mistake could cost someones life
		
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I think you'll find I have already stated that so not sure what your point is in partially quoting my post.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Like many before, they'll go to the agency's so they can earn more and have control more on what shifts they want to work. They won't leave per se imo, they'll just control where and when they want to work.
		
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My Mrs agrees 100% with this.  But many may leave - upset and saddened that all of a sudden after years of struggle they are the most valued people in the country.  And they might get a medal!

Remember the views expressed by so many not that long ago about the Junior Doctors and their concerns and actions over working conditions?  Where did that get them?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This is one excellent post which the likes of Starmer and Blunkett should read and then tell us what their knowledge of this situation is.
It's the same as mine - I don't know. I can only hope that this government will overcome the remendous odds stacked against them.
Don't tell me that it's Staamers job *to be the Opposition and question and criticise.* At a time like this , it isn't. His job is to offer every assistance and *realise the Country is fighting a war, ffs*.
		
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No we are not at war, we won't beat this with our resilience and indefeatable spirit, but sensible decisions based on the science. All the war analogies are kind of what we tend to retreat to in this country. 

It is a pandemic, one that is impacting every country and certain countries seem to be approaching it differently and having different results at this stage. So whilst any opposition should not be disagreeing with the government just for the sake of it as usually happens,  it is the job of any opposition to question where appropriate, as if you are saying that you can not question any governments approach then that is not a democracy and more of a dictatorship.


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## Mudball (Apr 12, 2020)

Patel said sorry if NHS staff *feel* that enough is not being done for PPE.. feel?? Really ‘feel’?? 

The only reality is how much kit is on the ground... local GP is fund raising to buy their own kit. They recently imported directly from overseas as the  NHS one was a bin bag. Dentists in the area are shut as they don’t have any PPE to work in an area full of aerosol.. 

And she talks about ‘feel’.. what b*llocks ...  on the plus side, she did park her smirk for the day


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 12, 2020)

It’s definitely the job of the leader of the opposition to hold the government to account, but also to offer support where he can.

He is involved in Cobra meetings, he will be seeing the same detail as the others and will be part of the decision making process.

We do as a nation seem to refer back to the “Dunkirk Spirit “ type of quotes
It’s just how we deal with stuff


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s definitely the job of the leader of the opposition to hold the government to account, but also to offer support where he can.

He is involved in Cobra meetings, he will be seeing the same detail as the others and will be part of the decision making process.

We do as a nation seem to refer back to the “Dunkirk Spirit “ type of quotes
It’s just how we deal with stuff
		
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Starmer spoke very well on Sky News earlier. He wouldn't be drawn on a blame game, speaking more about working together and asking the right questions to ensure all bases were covered.


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## bluewolf (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Starmer spoke very well on Sky News earlier. He wouldn't be drawn on a blame game, speaking more about working together and asking the right questions to ensure all bases were covered.
		
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Lisa Nandy just gave a great interview on Marr. Said exactly what I was thinking. She really is becoming a strong politician.


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## BrianM (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Starmer spoke very well on Sky News earlier. He wouldn't be drawn on a blame game, speaking more about working together and asking the right questions to ensure all bases were covered.
		
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This is how it should be, right now we all need to stick together, this is much bigger than arguing about your political stance.
Its so easy to criticise when we are learning as we go, I’m 100% sure every decision is getting made with the best intentions to make things better.
Once it’s all done they can go back to the commons and debate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Not going to church on Easter Sunday is a big thing for me these days. First time since 1213 that churches in UK have been closed on Easter Sunday...🙁

But I hope to pop into my church later today ( as I have a key) as I pass it on my daily walk - to say a wee prayer for us all, and I might actually do a little solo unaccompanied rendition of ‘Jesus Christ is risen today’ - with my wife as the congregation.  Churches should be filled with the sounds of celebration on this day, but today also prayer for us all of all faiths or none; for our health and for the health and future of the country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Patel said sorry if NHS staff *feel* that enough is not being done for PPE.. feel?? Really ‘feel’?? 

The only reality is how much kit is on the ground... local GP is fund raising to buy their own kit. They recently imported directly from overseas as the  NHS one was a bin bag. Dentists in the area are shut as they don’t have any PPE to work in an area full of aerosol.. 

And she talks about ‘feel’.. what b*llocks ...  on the plus side, she did park her smirk for the day
		
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Yes indeed - we both heard Patel saying she felt sorry that care workers ‘feel’ upset - no real apology whatsoever.


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## drdel (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			And if I did I would be paying way more tax than a sole trader or PAYE employee because I would still be paying 20% Corp Tax.
		
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Wrong. The 20% woul be on the profit, after full wages costs. I suspect your accountant has not been advising you too well.


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## Grizzly (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Starmer spoke very well on Sky News earlier. He wouldn't be drawn on a blame game, speaking more about working together and asking the right questions to ensure all bases were covered.
		
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My default position nowadays is to disagree with all politicians as a point of principle.  But Starmer and Nandy have been far more credible than the shower of **** that went before them, and offer at least a little bit of hope that there might be better ahead.

You see, the thing with this current situation is that - even if Governments had spent more time listening to, well, people like me (emergency planners, that is, rather than middle aged Yorkshiremen) - there was never any real hope of predicting that this would occur.  The best that they might have done would have been better preparedness for pandemic flu, but the way that Swine and Avian flu became more or less non events probably scuppered that.  So you have politicians reacting on the hoof to the problem, at the same time as their counterparts everywhere else are doing the same.  

That creates issues in supply chains, confusion in policies and the chance for the ill informed to say "but country X has had fewer deaths".  

Could the Government have done better?  Honestly, probably not much - and given how little time I had for the people in charge before this, I think at the key times, they have largely stepped up to the challenge, such as Johnson conducting a major U turn when it became clear that the science had changed against him, and Rishi Sunak making clear that the Government would finance this for most people.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Starmer spoke very well on Sky News earlier. He wouldn't be drawn on a blame game, speaking more about working together and asking the right questions to ensure all bases were covered.
		
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And they do need to work out how to reconvene parliament virtually, because quite when a physical reconvening will be possible nobody knows. And we just must have parliament reconvened for opposition parties and members of the governing party to scrutinise the government and their decisions, as well as supporting it and working together.  If everyone is working together much of the blame game can be kicked into the long grass.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Wrong. The 20% woul be on the profit, after full wages costs. I suspect your accountant has not been advising you too well.
		
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True but I would still have 20% to pay on top of normal PAYE so more tax


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She spoke quite well - but her words and actions of the last few years cannot simply be dismissed or forgotten.
		
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They can in the present context, ffs. At the moment we are not in a party politics situation, or we shouldn't be. So perhaps you could not be as well.
She is part of a government with a national crisis on its hands, not part of a Conservative party.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			True but I would still have 20% to pay on top of normal PAYE so more tax
		
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But profit can be minimised by re-investing in the business .. or looking at the total difference between current tax on paye vs taking a cut of the profit and being taxed on that.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Its all ordered and stock piled by the Trusts, then distributed when called off, according to budgets, it's the Trusts mainly that got caught out, the Govt don't order it or distribute it or are involved in the logistics, the trusts are!
		
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There you have it  SILH, Tory or Labour government would have the same situation. Just pack up the party politics.!


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			They can in the present context, ffs. At the moment we are not in a party politics situation, or we shouldn't be. So perhaps you could not be as well.
She is part of a government with a national crisis on its hands, not part of a Conservative party.
		
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And we have all forgotten Patel is a bully ...right?


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## Captainron (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Oh, and for all of you living in your perfect bubble and finger pointing, Im having to now carry a water container to wash just my hands after deliveries & to freshen up, which is not acceptable!

I’m constantly complaining to companies who’s fuel stations have now closed their toilets & washrooms!

Some of us are out all day & overnight also, shame on them 😡

I’ve asked at some delivery points if I can use their toilets, and I’ve been flatly refused with an array of BS excuses! 

I’m having to use my hand gel sparingly now as it’s an expense I can’t keep forking out for, so I carry water & liquid soap, and I’m also reusing my masks, even though I’m delivering thousands, but I’m having to buy them to supply everyone else with their essential deliveries!

I’m having to buy all my own PPE 😟
		
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Surely it’s down to the courier company to ensure that their staff have sufficient stock of the correct PPE to be able to make the deliveries. Also have to ensure that the drivers have been briefed on social distancing and cleaning procedures. 

If the company cannot provide the proper measures then they should not be able to transport the goods. It’s not down to he sender or the receiver to provide anything. 

Our company would not allow any external persons into the property under any circumstances (virus or no) to use the facilities so can fully understand them refusing you access at this time. 

I do think that there should be portaloos available at sevices for the times when a sit down is required. Otherwise just find a bush and try and wet as many leaves as possible.

Good news for you is that you’re earning money making these deliveries when many people aren’t able to work at this time. 

Got to look on the positive side of each situation.


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Wrong. The 20% woul be on the profit, after full wages costs. I suspect your accountant has not been advising you too well.
		
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He’s not the only one; it’s 19%, on taxable profits.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes indeed - we both heard Patel saying she felt sorry that care workers ‘feel’ upset - no real apology whatsoever.
		
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Here's a thought, perhaps a little controversial in some people's eyes. Just what does the government have to apologise for in terms of PPE? Who orders the PPE? The hospitals. Who delivers the PPE? The suppliers. Who decides if there isn't enough PPE? The hospitals. Who decides if they're not producing enough PPE? The suppliers/manufacturers.

Maybe it was nuanced from Patel in the brief yesterday but my feeling was from the gist of what she was saying was what does the govt have to apologise for?

Don't shoot the messenger! I don't like Patel at all but apart from not correcting herself over the numbers, just what did she say or do wrong yesterday?


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

Captainron said:



			Surely it’s down to the courier company to ensure that their staff have sufficient stock of the correct PPE to be able to make the deliveries. Also have to ensure that the drivers have been briefed on social distancing and cleaning procedures.

If the company cannot provide the proper measures then they should not be able to transport the goods. It’s not down to he sender or the receiver to provide anything.

Our company would not allow any external persons into the property under any circumstances (virus or no) to use the facilities so can fully understand them refusing you access at this time.

I do think that there should be portaloos available at sevices for the times when a sit down is required. Otherwise just find a bush and try and wet as many leaves as possible.

Good news for you is that you’re earning money making these deliveries when many people aren’t able to work at this time.

Got to look on the positive side of each situation.
		
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Indeed, some delivery personnel have been banned from accessing things by their employers.
We had a few deliveries the other day, and as it was very hot, offered them cans of coke. All said they weren’t allowed. For their own protection as well as that of the customer.


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought, perhaps a little controversial in some people's eyes. Just what does the government have to apologise for in terms of PPE? Who orders the PPE? The hospitals. Who delivers the PPE? The suppliers. Who decides if there isn't enough PPE? The hospitals. Who decides if they're not producing enough PPE? The suppliers/manufacturers.

Maybe it was nuanced from Patel in the brief yesterday but my feeling was from the gist of what she was saying was what does the govt have to apologise for?

Don't shoot the messenger! I don't like Patel at all but apart from not correcting herself over the numbers, just what did she say or do wrong yesterday?
		
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You could also ask who has been underfunding the NHS for years, and this meant they couldn’t afford to be adequately prepared?


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Yes, but Fish could crash his van.

Oops, he already has.
		
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Before the lock down may I add


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There you have it  SILH, Tory or Labour government would have the same situation. Just pack up the party politics.!
		
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Not party - individual...there is a huge difference.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Indeed, some delivery personnel have been banned from accessing things by their employers.
We had a few deliveries the other day, and as it was very hot, offered them cans of coke. All said they weren’t allowed. For their own protection as well as that of the customer.
		
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Our council have asked residents to not hand bin bags to the bin men to just leave them as normal 

People want to help out anyway they can but been asked to just leave alone so others can follow the guidelines set out for their safety


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Captainron said:



*Surely it’s down to the courier company to ensure that their staff have sufficient stock of the correct PPE to be able to make the deliveries. Also have to ensure that the drivers have been briefed on social distancing and cleaning procedures.*

If the company cannot provide the proper measures then they should not be able to transport the goods. It’s not down to he sender or the receiver to provide anything.

Our company would not allow any external persons into the property under any circumstances (virus or no) to use the facilities so can fully understand them refusing you access at this time.

I do think that there should be portaloos available at sevices for the times when a sit down is required. Otherwise just find a bush and try and wet as many leaves as possible.

Good news for you is that you’re earning money making these deliveries when many people aren’t able to work at this time.

Got to look on the positive side of each situation.
		
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I am the company, as such I'm having to buy everything to carry out all deliveries safely and in relation to all policies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Here's a thought, perhaps a little controversial in some people's eyes. Just what does the government have to apologise for in terms of PPE? Who orders the PPE? The hospitals. Who delivers the PPE? The suppliers. Who decides if there isn't enough PPE? The hospitals. Who decides if they're not producing enough PPE? The suppliers/manufacturers.

Maybe it was nuanced from Patel in the brief yesterday but my feeling was from the gist of what she was saying was what does the govt have to apologise for?

Don't shoot the messenger! I don't like Patel at all but apart from not correcting herself over the numbers, just what did she say or do wrong yesterday?
		
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Don’t disagree - but let no-one pretend she offered any real apology for any failings or shortcomings there may have been on testing or on PPE.  And there will have been some things that in hindsight could have been done better, but  hindsight is a marvellous thing. What actually matters is the gov doing the right things now and going forward.

On the trusts ensuring stockpiles? Well maybe after the 2016 pandemic test the government should have funded the trusts specifically to build their stockpiles.  Maybe they did and the trusts spent the funding on frontline essential services - I don’t know.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Indeed, some delivery personnel have been banned from accessing things by their employers.
We had a few deliveries the other day, and as it was very hot, offered them cans of coke. All said they weren’t allowed. For their own protection as well as that of the customer.
		
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I'd have just had you pour it into my own cup and thanked you gladly.


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## drdel (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			He’s not the only one; it’s 19%, on taxable profits.
		
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True, its academic anyway as Fish said earlier he was earning "...FA..." - so he's obviously just doing charitable work at the moment.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

jobr1850 said:



			surely that’s just a business expense though Rob, like fuel and built in to the price you charge for the service you offer?
		
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It is, but I was struggling to find any sensible pricing for a range of PPE that I now have to use & carry to deliver into many trusts, pharmacies, hospitals as well as normal companies who all have various policies in place, one being a visor which I've now had to order.

When doing as many deliveries as I do the amount of disposable PPE items I'm getting through, to operate safely, is substantial, and being held to ransom by some online companies who are taking advantage, is, well criminal!

Thankfully I've found and touched base this morning with a food bank organisation that has diversified to obtaining and supplying PPE to front line and key workers at small margins above cost, I hope to get my first order in about a week, that will see me through for 4-6 weeks, which I can absorb, without having to increase my charges when were all trying to pull together!


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## Stuart_C (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			It is, but I was struggling to find any sensible pricing for a range of PPE that I now have to use & carry as may trusts, pharmacies, hospitals as well as normal companies have various policies in place, one being a visor which I've now had to order.

*When doing as many deliveries as I do the amount of disposable PPE items I'm getting through, to operate safely, is substantial, and being held to ransom by some online companies who are taking advantage, is, well criminal!*

Thankfully I've found and touched base this morning with a food bank organisation that has diversified to obtaining and supplying PPE to front line and key workers at small margins above cost, I hope to get my first order in about a week, that will see me through for 4-6 weeks, which I can absorb, without having to increase my charges when were all trying to pull together!
		
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Capitalism at its finest, you shouldn't be surprised. I wonder which MP's or party donors own said companies who are banging huge margins on items....


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## Stuart_C (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			True, its academic anyway as Fish said earlier he was earning "...FA..." - so he's obviously just doing charitable work at the moment. 

Click to expand...

Expect nothing less from the honourable gentleman 👍


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Our council have asked residents to not hand bin bags to the bin men to just leave them as normal

People want to help out anyway they can but been asked to just leave alone so others can follow the guidelines set out for their safety
		
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I just went to my local Co-op, talk about a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I've walked in and followed the arrows etc, picking up a basket full of items I needed, got to the checkout, he's took them all out one by one with no gloves on and scanned them, as he started to pile them all up on the counter, I asked for a bag, he then placed a bag on top of the items as said he wasn't allowed to pack it?

Can someone dissect the logic in this, or am I missing something, he's already handled all the items I have, without protection, but can't handle them again to put into a bag or put them in a bag at the time of scanning, apparently for his own safety


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I just went to my local Co-op, talk about a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I've walked in and followed the arrows etc, picking up a basket full of items I needed, got to the checkout, he's took them all out one by one with no gloves on and scanned them, as he started to pile them all up on the counter, I asked for a bag, he then placed a bag on top of the items as said he wasn't allowed to pack it?

Can someone dissect the logic in this, or am I missing something, he's already handled all the items I have, without protection, but can't handle them again to put into a bag or put them in a bag at the time of scanning, apparently for his own safety 

Click to expand...


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## chellie (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I just went to my local Co-op, talk about a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I've walked in and followed the arrows etc, picking up a basket full of items I needed, got to the checkout, he's took them all out one by one with no gloves on and scanned them, as he started to pile them all up on the counter, I asked for a bag, he then placed a bag on top of the items as said he wasn't allowed to pack it?

Can someone dissect the logic in this, or am I missing something, he's already handled all the items I have, without protection, but can't handle them again to put into a bag or put them in a bag at the time of scanning, apparently for his own safety 

Click to expand...


He's either been told to that by a manager or mis-interpreted what he's to do.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2020)

therod said:



			I hate to break it to you, but your assumption isn’t correct in this case.
		
Click to expand...

Break what you like, my assumption is what I assume to be correct and you are at will to believe anything you wish.


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## garyinderry (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Oh, and for all of you living in your perfect bubble and finger pointing, Im having to now carry a water container to wash just my hands after deliveries & to freshen up, which is not acceptable!

I’m constantly complaining to companies who’s fuel stations have now closed their toilets & washrooms!

Some of us are out all day & overnight also, shame on them 😡

I’ve asked at some delivery points if I can use their toilets, and I’ve been flatly refused with an array of BS excuses! 

I’m having to use my hand gel sparingly now as it’s an expense I can’t keep forking out for, so I carry water & liquid soap, and I’m also reusing my masks, even though I’m delivering thousands, but I’m having to buy them to supply everyone else with their essential deliveries!

I’m having to buy all my own PPE 😟
		
Click to expand...


If we make more hand sanitizer in work il send you over a nice big bottle.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 12, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			If we make more hand sanitizer in work il send you over a nice big bottle.
		
Click to expand...

Cost plus 500% 😂


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			And we have all forgotten Patel is a bully ...right?
		
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Did that get proven? Anyhow it's a silly throw away comment.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

I do love a good conspiracy theory....


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I do love a good conspiracy theory....







Click to expand...

Link isn’t working Robin


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Link isn’t working Robin
		
Click to expand...

I can see the full you tube screen link?


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 12, 2020)

It says this video is private 
Was it on a closed FB group?


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I can see the full you tube screen link?
		
Click to expand...

I've now set it to public from private, does that work now?


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## Imurg (Apr 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It says this video is private
Was it on a closed FB group?
		
Click to expand...

I can watch it......
Maybe it's in Non-Mod mode....


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## JustOne (Apr 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 29886

Click to expand...

Love that picture - totally shows what we are fighting against across the nations 'stupidity divide'.
Also very representative of the forum, good intentions but very often fails on delivery.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Just spent the last 30 minutes deleting all my golf comps at home & away along with some golf trips from my phones calendar as it was getting me down receiving alerts for them every morning


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

Going too far? 

Police in Fuengirola have taken it to another level today. If you're caught outside today doing anything other than what is currently allowed; arrested and taken off to the cells. 14 detained from one road block alone. Quote from the Police today, "if you're out and about you won't be eating your Easter lunch at home."


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Going too far?

Police in Fuengirola have taken it to another level today. If you're caught outside today doing anything other than what is currently allowed; arrested and taken off to the cells. 14 detained from one road block alone. Quote from the Police today, "if you're out and about you won't be eating your Easter lunch at home."
		
Click to expand...

Not if its for the greater good, it will net the selfish and inconsiderate, as long as they get that definition correct at the time.

It should be shown being exercised on our national news, with a clear message, if you don't adhere to our laws, in the process to help save lives and protect our NHS, then we'll bring this in....be warned!


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## Beezerk (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			You could also ask who has been underfunding the NHS for years, and this meant they couldn’t afford to be adequately prepared?
		
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Apologies, I need to pick up on this point.
Are you suggesting the NHS should have had millions of PPE equipment locked away gathering dust, just in case there was a world wide epidemic?
Hindsight in a wonderful thing but surely it just isn't a sensible option?


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## User20205 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Going too far?

Police in Fuengirola have taken it to another level today. If you're caught outside today doing anything other than what is currently allowed; arrested and taken off to the cells. 14 detained from one road block alone. Quote from the Police today, "if you're out and about you won't be eating your Easter lunch at home."
		
Click to expand...

Too far IMO. Some will disagree, however if they’ve caught 14....
What’s your opinion being in the mix?


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## Beezerk (Apr 12, 2020)

therod said:



			Too far IMO. Some will disagree, however if they’ve caught 14....
What’s your opinion being in the mix?
		
Click to expand...

He can't reply, he's just been whisked off to jail


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Apologies, I need to pick up on this point.
Are you suggesting the NHS should have had millions of PPE equipment locked away gathering dust, just in case there was a world wide epidemic?
Hindsight in a wonderful thing but surely it just isn't a sensible option?
		
Click to expand...

No, just suggesting that generally every decision that every government makes should be questioned. No matter the time, situation or potential upset it may cause.


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## User20205 (Apr 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Apologies, I need to pick up on this point.
Are you suggesting the NHS should have had millions of PPE equipment locked away gathering dust, just in case there was a world wide epidemic?
Hindsight in a wonderful thing but surely it just isn't a sensible option?
		
Click to expand...

Wasn’t there a study a number of years ago 2016? That showed the NHS was unprepared for a pandemic of this type. South Korea weren’t caught cold


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## Beezerk (Apr 12, 2020)

therod said:



			Wasn’t there a study a number of years ago 2016? That showed the NHS was unprepared for a pandemic of this type. South Korea weren’t caught cold
		
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Not sure mate, it was just a Sunday morning musing I had, doesn't happen very often


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## User20205 (Apr 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure mate, it was just a Sunday morning musing I had, doesn't happen very often 

Click to expand...

It’s probably an unfair comparison as South Korea had a dry run with sars! Probably wasn’t on the top of the priority list, bet it will be in future


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Apologies, I need to pick up on this point.
Are you suggesting the NHS should have had millions of PPE equipment locked away gathering dust, just in case there was a world wide epidemic?
Hindsight in a wonderful thing but surely it just isn't a sensible option?
		
Click to expand...

Plus its mainly the Trusts that control the budgets, stock supplies and spend the monies,  they'd never hoard anything where monies are needed elsewhere, however, there are huge amounts of waste, so as for under-funding, I haven't looked into this, but I believe that the NHS has received increases of funds at every term, its just the demands are far outgrowing those increases, and hopefully after all of this, they'll be internal enquiries to address the waste and look at how trusts are spending the monies and preparing, the best they can, for any manner of epidemic that could immediately put a strain on available supplies and their ability to ramp those up quickly and effectively.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

therod said:



			Too far IMO. Some will disagree, however if they’ve caught 14....
What’s your opinion being in the mix?
		
Click to expand...

14 from one roadblock. They're also stopping people out walking. Not sure how they're coping with that many. Might be a bit cosy with your cellmate. We're 28 days into lockdown now. The first few days was all about warnings if caught out. Then it became a €300 fine, then €600 and now you're lucky if its €600. There's been over 50,000 fines issued, some all the way up to €60,000 - that buys a lot of masks.

I'm not comfortable with the thought of imprisonment, even overnight, but if fines aren't working... reluctantly, yes go for it.



Beezerk said:



			He can't reply, he's just been whisked off to jail 

Click to expand...

Fwee Bwian


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			14 from one roadblock. They're also stopping people out walking. Not sure how they're coping with that many. Might be a bit cosy with your cellmate. We're 28 days into lockdown now. The first few days was all about warnings if caught out. Then it became a €300 fine, then €600 and now you're lucky if its €600. There's been over 50,000 fines issued, some all the way up to €60,000 - that buys a lot of masks.

I'm not comfortable with the thought of imprisonment, even overnight, but if fines aren't working... reluctantly, yes go for it.



Fwee Bwian
		
Click to expand...


Tell em you have flat feet


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Plus its mainly the Trusts that control the budgets, stock supplies and spend the monies,  they'd never hoard anything where monies are needed elsewhere, however, there are huge amounts of waste, so as for under-funding, I haven't looked into this, but I believe that the NHS has received increases of funds at every term, its just the demands are far outgrowing those increases, and hopefully after all of this, they'll be internal enquiries to address the waste and look at how trusts are spending the monies and preparing, the best they can, for any manner of epidemic that could immediately put a strain on available supplies and their ability to ramp those up quickly and effectively.
		
Click to expand...


Just to pick up on funding, which is another very large argument in its own right. The NHS has received increases either side of inflation for as many years as you can count, or so it has often been sold to the public. However, 2 things on that score. Every advancement in medicine is a new (increased) cost over and above inflation. 

Secondly, for many years the NHS has been targeted with a 6% C.I.P. (Cost Improvement Programme). Bizarrely, started under Labour but continued thereafter. Imagine a budget of £100,000. You receive a 4% increase, announced to the public, which makes it look like you've had an above inflationary rise - everyone cheers. But behind that you lose 6% of it to the CIP. In effect you've had a cut.

As I said, it probably needs a thread all of its own to discuss the detail of funding but no govt of either party has looked after the NHS.


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## JustOne (Apr 12, 2020)

Brian..... what's the wife up to whilst you are tapping away on forum posts? Does she give you an hour... is she busy posting on her 'lady forum', something else?
I ask as mine is mostly glaring at me and there's a lot of eyerolling


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

JustOne said:



			Brian..... what's the wife up to whilst you are tapping away on forum posts? Does she give you an hour... is she busy posting on her 'lady forum', something else?
I ask as mine is mostly glaring at me and there's a lot of eyerolling 

Click to expand...

I'm the perfect man. I'm multi-tasking, satisfying her every need whilst I reply on here AND playing Richart's music play list through headphones. Thankfully, she doesn't have many needs, as age hath diminished me.

Actually, I'm the one left to my own devices. She has a black belt in Candy Crush.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just to pick up on funding, which is another very large argument in its own right. The NHS has received increases either side of inflation for as many years as you can count, or so it has often been sold to the public. However, 2 things on that score. Every advancement in medicine is a new (increased) cost over and above inflation.

Secondly, for many years the NHS has been targeted with a 6% C.I.P. (Cost Improvement Programme). Bizarrely, started under Labour but continued thereafter. Imagine a budget of £100,000. You receive a 4% increase, announced to the public, which makes it look like you've had an above inflationary rise - everyone cheers. But behind that you lose 6% of it to the CIP. In effect you've had a cut.

As I said, it probably needs a thread all of its own to discuss the detail of funding but no govt of either party has looked after the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Brian, details of which I was unaware, however, I stand by my comments and opinions on waste, its huge, I see it daily with many large companies, and the NHS being no exception, and especially those companies that are [almost] unaccountable to what they spend on what at times, but just order it!!


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

JustOne said:



			Brian..... what's the wife up to whilst you are tapping away on forum posts? Does she give you an hour... is she busy posting on her 'lady forum', something else?
I ask as mine is mostly glaring at me and there's a lot of eyerolling 

Click to expand...

You need to do a Brookside, start taking up the slabs on the patio with a grin on your face and a knowing glance over to them every now & then........


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## drdel (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			No, just suggesting that generally every decision that every government makes should be questioned. No matter the time, situation or potential upset it may cause.
		
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No system of Government could ever function or make timely decisions. We have elections and then let the winners and opposition get on with it. Superficial questions from a few ignorant activists must be treated as the noise it is.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 12, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-52261055

Confiscate the fishing gear, crush the car and let the muppets consider their stupidity whilst they walk home.


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			No system of Government could ever function or make timely decisions. We have elections and then let the winners and opposition get on with it. Superficial questions from a few ignorant activists must be treated as the noise it is.
		
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In a democracy everyone has the right to vote, and when not voting, the right to question.
As our servants the government, and all MPs, should answer said questions.
Those questions can be asked in various ways. By journalists, letter to your MP, Twitter, open letters in the press etc 
No question is a bad question, & no answer is a bad answer.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			Thanks for that Brian, details of which I was unaware, however, I stand by my comments and opinions on waste, its huge, I see it daily with many large companies, and the NHS being no exception, and especially those companies that are [almost] unaccountable to what they spend on what at times, but just order it!!
		
Click to expand...

I left the NHS because of bureaucracy and waste. To a large extent its far more professional than it was back then in many areas. Its certainly more commercially aware and a lot more careful with money. But a lot of the waste stems from the pace of getting things done and the sheer numbers of desks things have go over to get signed off.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			No system of Government could ever function or make timely decisions. We have elections and then let the winners and opposition get on with it. Superficial questions from a few ignorant activists must be treated as the noise it is.
		
Click to expand...

In times of national crisis there should be a desire to pull together, to help and get the job done.
If the natural instinct is to criticise and " hold to account" , then before that is done it has to be asked if it is necessary at that time to help the critical situation. If it isn't, then work hard with those calling the shots to help them and your Country.
The game of party politics should be put on hold.


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## IainP (Apr 12, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-52261055

Confiscate the fishing gear, crush the car and let the muppets consider their stupidity whilst they walk home. 

Click to expand...

Suffering from "it doesn't apply to me syndrome " by the sounds of it 😕


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Going too far?

Police in Fuengirola have taken it to another level today. If you're caught outside today doing anything other than what is currently allowed; arrested and taken off to the cells. 14 detained from one road block alone. Quote from the Police today, "if you're out and about you won't be eating your Easter lunch at home."
		
Click to expand...

We did the Easter egg hunt in doors to overcome this issue 👍! Advise though hiding eggs in the airing cupboard is not so wise.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Did that get proven? Anyhow it's a silly throw away comment.
		
Click to expand...

Was not disproven as the evidence was available from a few sources... just because the virus is about we should not forget to deal with the bad behaviour. If we don’t, we will lose all law and order, you know as well as I do it’s the thin end of the wedge.


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## drdel (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I left the NHS because of bureaucracy and waste. To a large extent its far more professional than it was back then in many areas. Its certainly more commercially aware and a lot more careful with money. But a lot of the waste stems from the pace of getting things done and the sheer numbers of desks things have go over to get signed off.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. I undertook several projects for NHS trusts. Few Surgeons and departmental heads would collaborate and instead insisted on doing their own thing. This arrogance and empire building just ate money, increased administration that in turn added more administrators which consumed yet more cash from the front line. More magement level so more salary bands and vastely overpaid Exec. Boards. A route and branch overhaul needed.


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			In times of national crisis there should be a desire to pull together, to help and get the job done.
If the natural instinct is to criticise and " hold to account" , then before that is done it has to be asked if it is necessary at that time to help the critical situation. If it isn't, then work hard with those calling the shots to help them and your Country.
The game of party politics should be put on hold.
		
Click to expand...

So if say we’re at war, and some people disagree with how the current PM is running things, they shouldn’t move to change and bring in a new leadership?
They should just sit back and say that, because he is in charge in a time of crisis he should be allowed to do whatever he wants, without question!


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## drdel (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So if say we’re at war, and some people disagree with how the current PM is running things, they shouldn’t move to change and bring in a new leadership?
They should just sit back and say that, because he is in charge in a time of crisis he should be allowed to do whatever he wants, without question!
		
Click to expand...

Its only a few months since he won a large majority.


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## BrianM (Apr 12, 2020)

Well, felt ok this morning but then went downhill again, like lead weights on my eyes, throat killing me and a dry cough still irritating me.
Work doctor phoned at half past 1, to check in with me, they want to get me tested now, on Wednesday.....
Anyone know if virus could be cleared from my system by then, I actually feel it’s too late and they are now covering themselves or they want me back to work if it’s positive and I’m basically good to go once feeling better.
Another 4 in quarantine on the rig as well, they are getting off today.


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Its only a few months since he won a large majority.
		
Click to expand...

The point being that in the past we’ve had leaders questioned, replaced and the man taking over classed as our greatest hero my many.

At no time is a leadership beyond question and reproach.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Was not disproven as the evidence was available from a few sources... just because the virus is about we should not forget to deal with the bad behaviour. If we don’t, we will lose all law and order, you know as well as I do it’s the thin end of the wedge.
		
Click to expand...

There is a time for everything and now is not the time.


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## IainP (Apr 12, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well, felt ok this morning but then went downhill again, like lead weights on my eyes, throat killing me and a dry cough still irritating me.
Work doctor phoned at half past 1, to check in with me, they want to get me tested now, on Wednesday.....
Anyone know if virus could be cleared from my system by then, I actually feel it’s too late and they are now covering themselves or they want me back to work if it’s positive and I’m basically good to go once feeling better.
Another 4 in quarantine on the rig as well, they are getting off today.
		
Click to expand...

By the sounds of things recovery has been so varied your question can't be answered.
Best of luck with your recovery.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			The point being that in the past we’ve had leaders questioned, replaced and the man taking over classed as our greatest hero my many.

At no time is a leadership beyond question and reproach.
		
Click to expand...

I think Starmer struck the right balance with what he said this morning. The questioning has to be constructive. We often see petty, stupid points scoring, especially at PMQ's. That sort of thing is totally unhelpful.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			So if say we’re at war, and some people disagree with how the current PM is running things, they shouldn’t move to change and bring in a new leadership?
They should just sit back and say that, because he is in charge in a time of crisis he should be allowed to do whatever he wants, without question!
		
Click to expand...

That's just hypothetical, what many get sick and tired of are the arm chair protagonists who in times like this have nothing better to do than nit pick at everything the government are doing.  Don't you see that many people are scared witless by what's going on at the moment and all the political whinging is making them worse.   Let's pull together for now and see how things can be improved afterwards


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think Starmer struck the right balance with what he said this morning. The questioning has to be constructive. We often see petty, stupid points scoring, especially at PMQ's. That sort of thing is totally unhelpful.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly right.

Sensible, relevant questions; when and why restrictions are lifted?, what should and shouldn’t police be doing? Etc

Not questions about past comments or actions.

But we certainly shouldn’t have people sitting back and accepting what’s going on. They should be shouting up now, not waiting until after the event. You can’t improve a situation after the fact. But you can minimise a bad outcome during.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 12, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think on the politics of it we all need to acknowledge the unprecedented nature of the situation. Frankly it's a massive challenge regardless of who is in charge.

As far as our government goes, they have impressed me with some things they have done but they have got other things wrong. Some of the measures (even the good ones) have been improved after the fact as they responded to feedback and criticism and that is to their credit but also shows the need for debate, not blind subservience.
		
Click to expand...

A debate will not be a debate for long, mud slinging will start pretty soon after.
Wether the government have done right or wrong nobody will know if anyone could have done better.
The only way we will get through this is if everyone works together.
It will take time,but ones things for sure,when someone needs to make that decision that we can move our lives forward it better be the right one.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			No system of Government could ever function or make timely decisions. We have elections and then let the winners and opposition get on with it. Superficial questions from a few ignorant activists must be treated as the noise it is.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly genuinely believe team tory would be sitting, in silence, unquestioning if there was a socialist Labour government in Westminster presently? Sorry, all I can see is the Tory press picking the bones out of every move with the blue rosette wearers nodding in agreement...


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

When will lockdown in Spain end?

Number of cases(total) on the day of lockdown;  9,942... rising at just under 2,000 around that day.
Number of deaths on the day of lockdown;  48.... number of deaths yesterday 525

Yes, in all indicators, the numbers are reducing but if Spain went into lockdown when infections were around 2,000 and deaths were at 48, surely they can't lift it any time soon? Perhaps the most telling figure, new cases as of yesterday 4,754. That more than double what it was when Spain went into lockdown. More than double the number of people who could infect others. 

The ramp that went up around lockdown, with only 2,000 new seeders was steep but imagine what it would be like if the were 4,754 new seeders!

Lockdown lifted in a month's time? I very much doubt it.


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## bobmac (Apr 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to church on Easter Sunday is a big thing for me these days. First time since 1213 that churches in UK have been closed on Easter Sunday...🙁

But I hope to pop into my church later today ( as I have a key) as I pass it on my daily walk - to say a wee prayer for us all, and I might actually do a little solo unaccompanied rendition of ‘Jesus Christ is risen today’ - with my wife as the congregation.  Churches should be filled with the sounds of celebration on this day, but today also prayer for us all of all faiths or none; for our health and for the health and future of the country.
		
Click to expand...

Who else has their own key?
Surely if churches are closed that's it they're closed to everyone.
What happens if someone sees you and follows you in?


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## User20204 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Lockdown lifted in a month's time? I very much doubt it.
		
Click to expand...

So what's the answer. 

Lockdown can't go on indefinitely and if your numbers are correct it seems not to be working that great. At some point in time the bigger picture has to be looked at and possibly just accepting that lots more are going to get infected but life and the economy has to go on.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So what's the answer.

Lockdown can't go on indefinitely and if your numbers are correct it seems not to be working that great. At some point in time the bigger picture has to be looked at and possibly just accepting that lots more are going to get infected but life and the economy has to go on.
		
Click to expand...

The raw numbers don't show rises and falls, nor a plateau. Try the link below. But here's a thought; how do you grow/maintain an economy if too many people are dying?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Who else has their own key?
Surely if churches are closed that's it they're closed to everyone.
What happens if someone sees you and follows you in?
		
Click to expand...

As its within walking distance, and being a key holder, I don't see it being an issue to check the security of the church, and if Hugh wants to take advantage of that, locking himself in no doubt at that time, then fill yer boots.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			When will lockdown in Spain end?

Number of cases(total) on the day of lockdown;  9,942... rising at just under 2,000 around that day.
Number of deaths on the day of lockdown;  48.... number of deaths yesterday 525

Yes, in all indicators, the numbers are reducing but if Spain went into lockdown when infections were around 2,000 and deaths were at 48, surely they can't lift it any time soon? Perhaps the most telling figure, new cases as of yesterday 4,754. That more than double what it was when Spain went into lockdown. More than double the number of people who could infect others.

The ramp that went up around lockdown, with only 2,000 new seeders was steep but imagine what it would be like if the were 4,754 new seeders!

Lockdown lifted in a month's time? I very much doubt it.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed it will be a while yet.
However on the other hand it has to move somewhere soon.
More people could die as a result of lockdown for different reasons


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## Old Skier (Apr 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Patel said sorry if NHS staff *feel* that enough is not being done for PPE.. feel?? Really ‘feel’??

The only reality is how much kit is on the ground... local GP is fund raising to buy their own kit. They recently imported directly from overseas as the  NHS one was a bin bag. Dentists in the area are shut as they don’t have any PPE to work in an area full of aerosol..

And she talks about ‘feel’.. what b*llocks ...  on the plus side, she did park her smirk for the day
		
Click to expand...

A doctor in a London hospital, a doctor not the logie, tweets that they are running out of some items of PPE. Within 12 hours that hospital has the items required. Seems there's more wrong with the hospital systems rather than the government.

Three NHS workers questioned on Breakfast news said they have more than they need. So it looks like NHS systems need looking at.

Friend of HID is a senior nurse and she said that admin staff who have no contact with patients are in offices demanding full PPE. Perhaps fear is causing some to go OTT in some circumstances. Who knows


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## User20204 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The raw numbers don't show rises and falls, nor a plateau. Try the link below. But here's a thought; how do you grow/maintain an economy if too many people are dying?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/

Click to expand...

I check that site daily, often daily. 

I don't believe the death rate is as apocalyptic as you may think. It is not killing everything it touches if it was it would already be in the millions. So the economy will start to get going once things open up, slowly, probably very slowly but things can't stay shut forever til it's gone, it's already common knowledge that this won't ever be gone.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			When will lockdown in Spain end?

Number of cases(total) on the day of lockdown;  9,942... rising at just under 2,000 around that day.
Number of deaths on the day of lockdown;  48.... number of deaths yesterday 525

Yes, in all indicators, the numbers are reducing but if Spain went into lockdown when infections were around 2,000 and deaths were at 48, surely they can't lift it any time soon? Perhaps the most telling figure, new cases as of yesterday 4,754. That more than double what it was when Spain went into lockdown. More than double the number of people who could infect others. 

The ramp that went up around lockdown, with only 2,000 new seeders was steep but imagine what it would be like if the were 4,754 new seeders!

Lockdown lifted in a month's time? I very much doubt it.
		
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Spain has been in a form of lockdown for a good few weeks, in a severe form of lockdown for 2-3 weeks? Should the numbers not show a dramatic drop in new infections?

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm trying to understand the time lag on this and why it is still spreading.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Spain has been in a form of lockdown for a good few weeks, in a severe form of lockdown for 2-3 weeks? Should the numbers not show a dramatic drop in new infections?

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm trying to understand the time lag on this and why it is still spreading.
		
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Not necessarily - the lockdown is to prevent a massive acceleration - which it has - but by doing so the curve flattening period is far longer - how long we must wait and see

Even with lockdown restriction of movement you will still get 'local transmission' between people in close contact social circles
Plus what we are seeing is the often delayed onset of symptoms and later presentation for testing - many of whom may have been positive some time earlier

The 7 days / 14 days etc timeline for general self isolation was useful as a limiting factor but i doubt the scientists ever believed that this was the consistent timeline for symptoms and subsequent safety (if not they need re-education)


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Spain has been in a form of lockdown for a good few weeks, in a severe form of lockdown for 2-3 weeks? Should the numbers not show a dramatic drop in new infections?

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm trying to understand the time lag on this and why it is still spreading.
		
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From what I can gather, don't hold me to this, you could be in a house with someone who is infected, and for them to not know it, but not catch it for a few days. During that time you could go shopping and give it someone who also does something very similar. And they too do the same thing.

As a lockdown is slowly lifted, e.g. you could go for a game of golf but not go into the clubhouse, I'd expect to see ripples. Peaks and troughs with, if done properly a decreasing average.

Italian Outcast beat me to it, and explained it better.


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## drdel (Apr 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Spain has been in a form of lockdown for a good few weeks, in a severe form of lockdown for 2-3 weeks? Should the numbers not show a dramatic drop in new infections?

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm trying to understand the time lag on this and why it is still spreading.
		
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IMO if we look at the 'shape' of 'empidemic' curves a rule of thumb would be that the rate of decline will be twice the build up. So if we have had a month of increases we will need at least two months to get levels down to an acceptable rate.  It wont ever drop back to zero for a year or two after vaccinations are routine.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 12, 2020)

As many of you know, Mum passed away in September , we have her house sold, waiting to exchange as soon as restrictions are lifted, its about 10 miles away

The house is empty and we have an empty property buildings insurance policy in place that states that the property must be visited once a week to check that there has been no fire, water leak, vandalism, break ins etc
As executor, I have to protect my position and that of the other beneficiaries

I went last Tuesday, and i will go again this Tuesday, it may not be essential travel in some peoples eyes, but I'm not having some insurance company weedle out of any possible future claim on a technicality.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			As many of you know, Mum passed away in September , we have her house sold, waiting to exchange as soon as restrictions are lifted, its about 10 miles away

The house is empty and we have an empty property buildings insurance policy in place that states that the property must be visited once a week to check that there has been no fire, water leak, vandalism, break ins etc
As executor, I have to protect my position and that of the other beneficiaries

I went last Tuesday, and i will go again this Tuesday, it may not be essential travel in some peoples eyes, but I'm not having some insurance company weedle out of any possible future claim on a technicality.
		
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id say thats essienal , you are checking nobody is breaking the rules by having parties there


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Its only a few months since he won a large majority.
		
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On the basis that Corbyn was perceived as unelectable by many, the Labour manifesto were seen as in cloud cuckoo land and Brexit.  None of which makes him unquestionable in a time of crisis that has nothing to do with the main reasons he got his landslide. In fact you could argue that as Tory MPs and the cabinet is packed full of people mostly there because of their stance on Brexit and arguably not always because of their overall competence, as we are not dealing with Brexit it makes it even more valid to have valid and reasonable questioning at this time.


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			On the basis that Corbyn was perceived as unelectable by many, the Labour manifesto were seen as in cloud cuckoo land and Brexit.  None of which makes him unquestionable in a time of crisis that has nothing to do with the main reasons he got his landslide. In fact you could argue that as Tory MPs and the cabinet is packed full of people mostly there because of their stance on Brexit and arguably not always because of their overall competence, as we are not dealing with Brexit it makes it even more valid to have valid and reasonable questioning at this time.
		
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It has nothing to do with Brexit, Corbyn, the Cabinet’s former statements or stance on anything!

They should be questioned because they are making decisions which impact everyone’s lives, and we need to be sure they are doing it properly.


If this were Blair’s govt, Thatcher, Churchill, anyone. They should still be questioned.


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## Foxholer (Apr 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I go off the Health England site https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/ae5dda8f86814ae99dde905d2a9070ae

Click to expand...

Just had a look at the UK figures from the link Hobbit posted.
A couple of dips in UK figures for Deaths (March 29,30 and April 5, 6) corresponded to Sundays and Mondays. Seems like the folk suggesting reporting delays slew some figures may well have been correct - at least for deaths. Another 'dip' today. If the same pattern repeats tomorrow and Tuesday (Easter affected), I'd be pretty certain that weekend 'dips' in death figures are affected by reporting delays. I'd suspect (only) that new cases are reported much more toward patient's entry!
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/UK


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## Billysboots (Apr 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Spain has been in a form of lockdown for a good few weeks, in a severe form of lockdown for 2-3 weeks? Should the numbers not show a dramatic drop in new infections?

I'm not trying to be critical, I'm trying to understand the time lag on this and why it is still spreading.
		
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I think it seems to be accepted now that this lockdown is not about wiping this virus out - a lockdown is never going to achieve that. It’s about protecting health services.

The ludicrous thing about Spain’s figures is that, despite there still being over 200 deaths and nearly 3000 new infections in the last 24 hours, I am enormously encouraged by them. There are a lot of emergency rooms at hospitals in Spain which are now working at normal capacity.

I think we simply have to accept that this has all been about buying time. Time for drug trials to start, time for work to get underway on a vaccine, and time for the NHS to try and get in some sort of position where it can face a long term battle, which is what this will be.

The lockdown, in my view, is only a small preliminary piece of a much bigger picture.


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## User20204 (Apr 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think it seems to be accepted now that this lockdown is not about wiping this virus out - a lockdown is never going to achieve that. It’s about protecting health services.



I think we simply have to accept that this has all been about buying time. 


The lockdown, in my view, is only a small preliminary piece of a much bigger picture.
		
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Some of us knew from the start of it that was the case.


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## Billysboots (Apr 12, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Some of us knew from the start of it that was the case.
		
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Congratulations for your foresight.


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Congratulations for your foresight.
		
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They did state originally that it was about flattening the curve, so that hospitals could cope better.
Same number of cases just spread out a bit.


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## Billysboots (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			They did state originally that it was about flattening the curve, so that hospitals could cope better.
Same number of cases just spread out a bit.
		
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I agree, but there still seems to be over reliance on daily figures, and people worrying that there are still hundreds of daily deaths. Like any statistics, it’s what lies behind the numbers which is important.


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## User20204 (Apr 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Congratulations for your foresight.
		
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No one needed foresight, you only needed ears, we were told it very clearly, numerous times, some of us were listening, seems some of us weren't.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think it seems to be accepted now that this lockdown is not about wiping this virus out - a lockdown is never going to achieve that. It’s about protecting health services.

The ludicrous thing about Spain’s figures is that, despite there still being over 200 deaths and nearly 3000 new infections in the last 24 hours, I am enormously encouraged by them. There are a lot of emergency rooms at hospitals in Spain which are now working at normal capacity.

I think we simply have to accept that this has all been about buying time. Time for drug trials to start, time for work to get underway on a vaccine, and time for the NHS to try and get in some sort of position where it can face a long term battle, which is what this will be.

The lockdown, in my view, is only a small preliminary piece of a much bigger picture.
		
Click to expand...

Good post. I'm just surprised it is infecting people at that rate still when their restrictions are so tight. I thought it would be squeezed more in Spain by now, that was clearly too simplistic a view.

I understand about spreading out the infections to a manageable level, a logical and pragmatic approach. The next big question is when and how the restrictions will start to be lifted. There will be some pressure on the people making that decision.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Who else has their own key?
Surely if churches are closed that's it they're closed to everyone.
What happens if someone sees you and follows you in?
		
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I am an elder so I have a key. Only a handful in the congregation have a key. I walk past the church on our walk route.  I check that it is secure and sound and today while there took the opportunity. I was in it for less than ten minutes today. Nobody can follow me in as the door locks on closing.

@Fish got it spot on.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Apologies, I need to pick up on this point.
Are you suggesting the NHS should have had millions of PPE equipment locked away gathering dust, just in case there was a world wide epidemic?
Hindsight in a wonderful thing but surely it just isn't a sensible option?
		
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Worked for Wimbledon who paid 2m dollars a year for 17 years to insure against such pandemics as the current crisis.
They will recieve 134m dollars for this years cancellation.
I do like the dollars currency in this post.


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## Billysboots (Apr 12, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			No one needed foresight, you only needed ears, we were told it very clearly, numerous times, some of us were listening, seems some of us weren't.
		
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I was listening and understood very well, not least because of an underlying condition which makes me vulnerable.

I’m going to be very forthright. In the same vein to others suggesting party politics needs to be placed to one side, I’m going to suggest you stop trolling simply because you took umbrage to my posts on another thread.

Life is too short, and too precious at the moment, for you to puff your chest out and bore the rest of the forum senseless simply because you’ve taken a dislike to what I say, and how I say it.


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## Billysboots (Apr 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good post. I'm just surprised it is infecting people at that rate still when their restrictions are so tight. I thought it would be squeezed more in Spain by now, that was clearly too simplistic a view.

I understand about spreading out the infections to a manageable level, a logical and pragmatic approach. The next big question is when and how the restrictions will start to be lifted. There will be some pressure on the people making that decision.
		
Click to expand...

The decision to lift the lockdown and how to do it will be several times harder than imposing it to begin with.

Our politicians will be earning their money in the weeks and months ahead.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 12, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Do you honestly genuinely believe team tory would be sitting, in silence, unquestioning if there was a socialist Labour government in Westminster presently? Sorry, all I can see is the Tory press picking the bones out of every move with the blue rosette wearers nodding in agreement...
		
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That's not a party politics post then🙄..?


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## JustOne (Apr 12, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Do you honestly genuinely believe team tory would be sitting, in silence, unquestioning if there was a socialist Labour government in Westminster presently? Sorry, all I can see is the Tory press picking the bones out of every move with the blue rosette wearers nodding in agreement...
		
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Pehaps you need to stop using the word Tory and just go with "The party who won by a landslide election and nearly have double the seats of the oposition"

or TPWWBALEANHDTSOTO for short 
Hope that helps 

(I expect if roles were reversed we'd expect the Tories to sit down and be quiet) but it didn't happen that way.
You are probably right and we'd be reading about the RED rosette wearers nodding in agreement, but apart from being sour I have no idea how your post is constructive.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 12, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's not a party politics post then🙄..?
		
Click to expand...

Spot on though otherwise you would've ignored it as "superficial noise"...


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## User20204 (Apr 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I was listening and understood very well, not least because of an underlying condition which makes me vulnerable.

I’m going to be very forthright. In the same vein to others suggesting party politics needs to be placed to one side, I’m going to suggest you stop trolling simply because you took umbrage to my posts on another thread.

Life is too short, and too precious at the moment, for you to puff your chest out and bore the rest of the forum senseless simply because you’ve taken a dislike to what I say, and how I say it.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest to you, you're too full of your own self importance to think I took umbrage to some other post elsewhere, stop flattering yourself.

For the record, I have no idea what you are on about.


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## JustOne (Apr 12, 2020)

*Bill Gates interview*.....

Which country was he referring to when he said this?

He said: 'Some countries jumped on this faster than others. They were really checking if there was community spread, they got the diagnostics capacity up quickly."

and how are those countries doing so far?


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I was listening and understood very well, not least because of an underlying condition which makes me vulnerable.

I’m going to be very forthright. In the same vein to others suggesting party politics needs to be placed to one side, I’m going to suggest you stop trolling simply because you took umbrage to my posts on another thread.

Life is too short, and too precious at the moment, for you to puff your chest out and bore the rest of the forum senseless simply because you’ve taken a dislike to what I say, and how I say it.
		
Click to expand...




HappyHacker1 said:



			I suggest to you, you're too full of your own self importance to think I took umbrage to some other post elsewhere, stop flattering yourself.

For the record, I have no idea what you are on about.
		
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Billy and HappyHacker
Please wind your respective necks in 

Thank you 🙏


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## JamesR (Apr 12, 2020)

JustOne said:



*Bill Gates interview*.....

Which country was he referring to when he said this?

He said: 'Some countries jumped on this faster than others. They were really checking if there was community spread, they got the diagnostics capacity up quickly."

and how are those countries doing so far?
		
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🇬🇧 ?


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## bobmac (Apr 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am an elder so I have a key. Only a handful in the congregation have a key. I walk past the church on our walk route.  I check that it is secure and sound and today while there took the opportunity. I was in it for less than ten minutes today. Nobody can follow me in as the door locks on closing.

@Fish got it spot on.
		
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I don't care , what part of STAY IN do you not understand?


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## Slime (Apr 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am an elder so I have a key. Only a handful in the congregation have a key. I walk past the church on our walk route.  I check that it is secure and sound and today while there took the opportunity. I was in it for less than ten minutes today. Nobody can follow me in as the door locks on closing.
		
Click to expand...




bobmac said:



			I don't care , what part of STAY IN do you not understand?
		
Click to expand...


I don't know why, but this sprung to mind!


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## User20204 (Apr 12, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Billy and HappyHacker
Please wind your respective necks in

Thank you 🙏
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea what the fellas beef is, some previous posting from me to him, he says, so I'm not exactly sure what I have done wrong. I have challenged what he has said in this topic, it was himself who seems to be carrying things on, but I take on board what you say.


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## Billysboots (Apr 12, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I have no idea what the fellas beef is, some previous posting from me to him, he says, so I'm not exactly sure what I have done wrong. I have challenged what he has said in this topic, it was himself who seems to be carrying things on, but I take on board what you say.
		
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Oh, please. You’re so adept at trolling you don’t even know you’re doing it.

Cast your mind back to the “Essential Services” thread, where you also had to be told to wind your neck in, and stop trying to come across like butter wouldn’t melt.

Final word from me, Phil, and apologies that you have had to intervene.


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## Foxholer (Apr 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I don't care , what part of STAY IN do you not understand?
		
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Have you read ALL the recommendations/rules?

I suggest you check the 'exercise' part of them.

Given the nature of SILH's foray, I'd suggest it's within the bounds of the above! Certainly not as daft as the idiot walking out of my local Waitrose yesterday, that has 1 or 2 guards restricting access, who walked within a foot of 3 of us on his exit!! Or the idiots having a communal smoke at the window of the flats across the road!


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

Some petition going around about MPs being able to apply for a £10k grant. 
It was initially reported they were all going to get it and a petition against that was raised but the articles neglected to say it was optional.
This did cause some people to write to their MP and offer up an opinion. 
I have seen one MP’s response (Worthing, I think) where he sets everyone straight about it being optional and not a general increase to their wages. 
But the questions that remain, why would they need £10k to wfh ? And why is this amount physically available, where was it generated? 

The rest of his post is about how he has been dishing out Easter eggs to NHS staff, how he has shopped at Sainsbury’s to give them vital food after their shifts ... plus how as an MP he is far too busy to reply to these emails due to his constituency work.

Generally left the impression that he was failing to stay at home and follow the guidelines and was seeking some form of political gain ... had he just said that it was an optional grant offered up by the independent body to cover x costs that might have been better.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Some petition going around about MPs being able to apply for a £10k grant. 
It was initially reported they were all going to get it and a petition against that was raised but the articles neglected to say it was optional.
This did cause some people to write to their MP and offer up an opinion. 
I have seen one MP’s response (Worthing, I think) where he sets everyone straight about it being optional and not a general increase to their wages. 
But the questions that remain, why would they need £10k to wfh ? And why is this amount physically available, where was it generated? 

The rest of his post is about how he has been dishing out Easter eggs to NHS staff, how he has shopped at Sainsbury’s to give them vital food after their shifts ... plus how as an MP he is far too busy to reply to these emails due to his constituency work.

Generally left the impression that he was failing to stay at home and follow the guidelines and was seeking some form of political gain ... had he just said that it was an optional grant offered up by the independent body to cover x costs that might have been better.
		
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From what I’d read it was for setting up costs to work at home? Surely they all do that and have those facilities in place already? If anything was a bad idea from where ever it stemmed from that would get the public’s back up, again, it was this.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			A doctor in a London hospital, a doctor not the logie, tweets that they are running out of some items of PPE. Within 12 hours that hospital has the items required. Seems there's more wrong with the hospital systems rather than the government.

Three NHS workers questioned on Breakfast news said they have more than they need. So it looks like NHS systems need looking at.

Friend of HID is a senior nurse and she said that admin staff who have no contact with patients are in offices demanding full PPE. Perhaps fear is causing some to go OTT in some circumstances. Who knows
		
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I work with our technicians a lot and I can categorically say we (as in my trust) are not getting sufficient PPE but even worse we are not getting the component parts we need to maintain vital equipment like ventilators. The orders are in but either coming back as awaiting stock, delayed awaiting shipping or shipping in anything from 3-30 days.


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## PieMan (Apr 12, 2020)

Re. the MPs, they will all have constituency offices where the majority of their local work is undertaken away from Westminster, so not every MP (and more importantly their staff) will be set up to work from home.

I would imagine that a number of the new MPs elected in the last election will need to take up some of this optional allowance to keep themselves 'in business' during these challenging times.

And don't forget there are a calls for Parliament to resume in a virtual capacity, so MPs home IT will need to be as good as it can be to allow Parliamentary business to run efficiently.

And just also for clarity, my government department (and I think most others) has offered every single one of its staff up to £150 to purchase any equipment we need for us to WFH effectively. 

Personally I don't need anything so I don't need to claim, but I have colleagues who do need specialist equipment and have therefore had to make use of this allowance. Would imagine that the Civil Service bill once this is all over will far exceed any MPs.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 12, 2020)

I'll find out tomorrow how long the patient in question was in ICU but some positive news from our ICU facebook page

Hi Everyone ... we did it ... our long term covid-19 patient was discharged to Kennet ward passing through an applauding 30-plus MDT guard of honour ... emotional moment for her and many of us 💕


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## bobmac (Apr 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Have you read ALL the recommendations/rules?

I suggest you check the 'exercise' part of them.
		
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Do you really think I haven't seen them?
Do you really think I don't know what the recommendations are.
How stupid do you think I am? 

A politician says go out and exercise.
I don't care.
A scientist says stay in. 
He/she I will listen to.
Who wants your vote and who knows what they're talking about.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Re. the MPs, they will all have constituency offices where the majority of their local work is undertaken away from Westminster, so not every MP (and more importantly their staff) will be set up to work from home.

I would imagine that a number of the new MPs elected in the last election will need to take up some of this optional allowance to keep themselves 'in business' during these challenging times.

And don't forget there are a calls for Parliament to resume in a virtual capacity, so MPs home IT will need to be as good as it can be to allow Parliamentary business to run efficiently.

And just also for clarity, my government department (and I think most others) has offered every single one of its staff up to £150 to purchase any equipment we need for us to WFH effectively.

Personally I don't need anything so I don't need to claim, but I have colleagues who do need specialist equipment and have therefore had to make use of this allowance. Would imagine that the Civil Service bill once this is all over will far exceed any MPs.
		
Click to expand...

I remember being given a headset for £15 and a vpn pass key ... had a lap top and phone already issued and told to crack on ...


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## PieMan (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I remember being given a headset for £15 and a vpn pass key ... had a lap top and phone already issued and told to crack on ...
		
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Not as easy as that for an MP.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Not as easy as that for an MP.
		
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I get what you’re saying Paul, but £10k 🤔


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I get what you’re saying Paul, but £10k 🤔
		
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Plus a salary of £65-70k, possibly a surgery to meet a constituency .. guys it’s not required it’s about willing and being resourceful. 
Some strong management required .. no is an acceptable answer.


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## PieMan (Apr 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I get what you’re saying Paul, but £10k 🤔
		
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Robin, just have a think how much it would cost to effectively set up a working office away from Westminster, especially with all the security that is needed.

And this is an optional, 'if needed' cost - a significant number of MPs that have been in parliament won't need this and won't even think about claiming it.

Yes 10k is a huge amount of money, but those who authorised it would have been advised by the relevant parliamentary bodies as to what maximum costs would be.

My MP is a Cabinet Minister - if it came out that he needed to claim say £5k to upgrade his home IT - and that of his staff - to undertake the work that he's been elected to do effectively during this exceptional period then fair enough IMO.


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## PieMan (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Plus a salary of £65-70k, possibly a surgery to meet a constituency .. guys it’s not required it’s about willing and being resourceful. 
Some strong management required .. no is an acceptable answer.
		
Click to expand...

And a number have said they don't need it so won't be claiming it!!


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Plus a salary of £65-70k, possibly a surgery to meet a constituency .. guys it’s not required it’s about willing and being resourceful.
Some strong management required .. no is an acceptable answer.
		
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And the answer would be no. If you asked me to set up a home office from scratch and pay for it out of my pocket the answer would be a quick, derisory laugh and a no.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 12, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Robin, just have a think how much it would cost to effectively set up a working office away from Westminster, especially with all the security that is needed.

And this is an optional, 'if needed' cost - a significant number of MPs that have been in parliament won't need this and won't even think about claiming it.

Yes 10k is a huge amount of money, but those who authorised it would have been advised by the relevant parliamentary bodies as to what maximum costs would be.

My MP is a Cabinet Minister - if it came out that he needed to claim say £5k to upgrade his home IT - and that of his staff - to undertake the work that he's been elected to do effectively during this exceptional period then fair enough IMO.
		
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Would they not already have IT systems set up in their constituency offices? And if so couldn't they simply move whatever they need from there to their homes during this period?

I have no idea if that is feasible which is why I'm asking the questions.


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## Foxholer (Apr 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			...
How stupid do you think I am?
...
.
		
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H'mm!
I can only form an opinion from, at least some of, your posts - which, hopefully, doesn't match reality!


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## Dando (Apr 12, 2020)

JamesR said:



			You could also ask who has been underfunding the NHS for years, and this meant they couldn’t afford to be adequately prepared?
		
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Every government has underfunded the nhs!
best thing the tories could do now to help the nhs is cancel all the PFI contracts that were forced on them


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## Old Skier (Apr 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm!
I can only form an opinion from, at least some of, your posts - which, hopefully, doesn't match reality!
		
Click to expand...

Popcorn anyone,


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## bobmac (Apr 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm!
I can only form an opinion from, at least some of, your posts - which, hopefully, doesn't match reality!
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			Popcorn anyone,
		
Click to expand...

Don't bother, I'm not going to feed the troll.
I'm done


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And the answer would be no. If you asked me to set up a home office from scratch and pay for it out of my pocket the answer would be a quick, derisory laugh and a no.
		
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If you have a table and a chair in a house you have an office. I set my first business up like that, built my own desktop from bits I scrounged ( box and monitor) .. nothing fancy. Just get on with it, lot worse stuff in the world.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would they not already have IT systems set up in their constituency offices? And if so couldn't they simply move whatever they need from there to their homes during this period?

I have no idea if that is feasible which is why I'm asking the questions.
		
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i was contacted last week by a third party that is arranging this for some high end security corporate companies and banks.  

All sorts of associated security requirements plus a greater degree of goods in transit insurance, which I already have, a daily and single operation as the distance from offices to homes was in some cases, considerable.

Had to give a day rate due to it not being a straight forward pick up, collect and drop, so some companies are moving offices as such, so it’s feasible.


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## hovis (Apr 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm!
I can only form an opinion from, at least some of, your posts - which, hopefully, doesn't match reality!
		
Click to expand...

has Liverpool Phil changed his name to bobmac 😂

on a serious note they're are a few forumers not posting much.  hope they're OK.


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			If you have a table and a chair in a house you have an office. I set my first business up like that, built my own desktop from bits I scrounged ( box and monitor) .. nothing fancy. Just get on with it, lot worse stuff in the world.
		
Click to expand...

That's your opinion Chris. I disagree.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 12, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I work with our technicians a lot and I can categorically say we (as in my trust) are not getting sufficient PPE but even worse we are not getting the component parts we need to maintain vital equipment like ventilators. The orders are in but either coming back as awaiting stock, delayed awaiting shipping or shipping in anything from 3-30 days.
		
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That’s not good enough is it Homer
Do you trust what Mat Hancock says?


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## pokerjoke (Apr 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you really think I haven't seen them?
Do you really think I don't know what the recommendations are.
How stupid do you think I am?

A politician says go out and exercise.
I don't care.
A scientist says stay in.
He/she I will listen to.
Who wants your vote and who knows what they're talking about.
		
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I believe the government are telling us what the experts are telling them.
I don’t believe anyone in the government will override the experts.
Experts clearly have said you can exercise once a day,being very aware of social distancing.


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## Fish (Apr 12, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			That’s not good enough is it Homer
Do you trust what Mat Hancock says?
		
Click to expand...

is it the government’s fault that the trusts haven’t got enough PPE or parts and back up supplies or access to companies that can, at little notice, suddenly produce more than what’s ever been needed before, and without mentioning funding, because the trusts decide where they spend, and even with an open cheque book, would they have still had unlimited amounts of PPE and parts hoarded, just in case?


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## User20204 (Apr 12, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I believe the government are telling us what the experts are telling them.
I don’t believe anyone in the government will override the experts.
.
		
Click to expand...

It's inevitable that the government will overrule what the experts say.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			That's your opinion Chris. I disagree.
		
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That’s fine Brian. I just think we need to be a little more circumspect with what we dish the cash out for as an engineer that’s always the bottom line.


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## Beezerk (Apr 12, 2020)

Re the 10k offices expenses, why not give the office furniture to charity or a struggling business once this is over? 
Maybe too simplistic on my part but they won't really need it any longer 🤷


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## Hobbit (Apr 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			That’s fine Brian. I just think we need to be a little more circumspect with what we dish the cash out for as an engineer that’s always the bottom line.
		
Click to expand...

As is the end product. I, like you, have worked from home. I, like you, have done it from a dining table and chair. And I, like you, have done it from a dedicated work station. At 30 I could do it from the first option reasonably comfortably but by 50 it had to be something an awful lot more appropriate.

Lets not forget what the end result has to be, i.e. producing high quality work at a very critical time. 650 MP's, quite a number of which won't need to buy much at all. In the great scheme of spending, how much will it cost? Peanuts. Would you skimp £2,000,000 and risk poor output at this critical time.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 12, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I believe the government are telling us what the experts are telling them.
I don’t believe anyone in the government will override the experts.
Experts clearly have said you can exercise once a day,being very aware of social distancing.
		
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And does that include going into a building likely to be used by other people, having probably the same strong desire to be there on a day which is very important to them.?
It seems to me that that desire has overridden every other consideration.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			As is the end product. I, like you, have worked from home. I, like you, have done it from a dining table and chair. And I, like you, have done it from a dedicated work station. At 30 I could do it from the first option reasonably comfortably but by 50 it had to be something an awful lot more appropriate.

Lets not forget what the end result has to be, i.e. producing high quality work at a very critical time. 650 MP's, quite a number of which won't need to buy much at all. In the great scheme of spending, how much will it cost? Peanuts. Would you skimp £2,000,000 and risk poor output at this critical time.
		
Click to expand...

You need to help me over the line here, what are your concerns in their work?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 12, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Have you read ALL the recommendations/rules?

I suggest you check the 'exercise' part of them.

Given the nature of SILH's foray, I'd suggest it's within the bounds of the above! Certainly not as daft as the idiot walking out of my local Waitrose yesterday, that has 1 or 2 guards restricting access, who walked within a foot of 3 of us on his exit!! Or the idiots having a communal smoke at the window of the flats across the road!
		
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But if a church is Gods house !
The rules say don’t go in anybody else’s house.


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## Foxholer (Apr 13, 2020)

BBC New's front page main pic; Headline... UK enters 4th week of Lockdown!


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			BBC New's front page main pic; Headline... UK enters 4th week of Lockdown!





Click to expand...

New cases reported in the UK yesterday 5,288
Deaths reported yesterday  737

Spain
New cases 2992
Deaths   366


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			BBC New's front page main pic; Headline... UK enters 4th week of Lockdown!





Click to expand...

But is it a lockdown though?

Aren’t these people simply exercising, especially if they live local, and like some, believe it’s absolutely within the  guidelines that they can walk for 2hrs, run for 90mins or even cycle for possibly longer?

The ‘stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives’ doesn’t seem to be enforceable when there’s a caveat to be able to exercise, which can be, and in some cases is, being interpreted and manipulated to be able to stay out far longer than any ‘guidelines’, which by all accounts, ‘holds no weight’!

Until there are very clear lines drawn, which can be enforced, photos like this, of what can be perceived as far too many people in any one area, will carry on, as each and everyone of those people will be claiming there simply exercising, and there doesn’t seem to be a clear definition as to what that should be so it can be followed correctly, especially if it’s supposed to be a ‘law’ and not a suggestion!


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## hovis (Apr 13, 2020)

one thing to remember is the aim was to get each infected person to only spread it to 0.8 people rather than 3. the picture showed here is not a true reflection on what is happening country wide.   I have been out on the streets all over the county.  I have been pleasantly surprised by how quiet its been over the whole holiday.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

Fish said:



			The ‘stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives’ doesn’t seem to be enforceable when there’s a caveat to be able to exercise, which can be, and in some cases is, being interpreted and manipulated to be able to stay out far longer than any ‘guidelines’, which by all accounts, ‘holds no weight’!

Until there are very clear lines drawn, which can be enforced, photos like this, of what can be perceived as far too many people in any one area, will carry on, as each and everyone of those people will be claiming there simply exercising, and there doesn’t seem to be a clear definition as to what that should be so it can be followed correctly, especially if it’s supposed to be a ‘law’ and not a suggestion!
		
Click to expand...

People are going to go out because they're allowed to instead of using their brain and staying in.
There's a deadly virus out there, stay in.

The sooner we have a Spain-like lock-down the better it will be for all of us


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2020)

hovis said:



			one thing to remember is the aim was to get each infected person to only spread it to 0.8 people rather than 3. the picture showed here is not a true reflection on what is happening country wide.   I have been out on the streets all over the county.  I have been pleasantly surprised by how quiet its been over the whole holiday.
		
Click to expand...

You’re right, I’m all over the country also, passing through areas which would normally be a hive of activity, especially at bank holidays, and were scary quiet, which was good to see. 

The problem is though, in condensed areas where people all come out and all head for the local parks and areas to exercise, then create, unintentionally, a ‘gathering’, then those people in quieter areas will start to venture out more and for longer, so it’s a double edged sword, we’re either in a lockdown with clear red lines, or not, so the country can understand and follow the ‘laws’, if that is indeed what they are!


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## hovis (Apr 13, 2020)

Fish said:



			You’re right, I’m all over the country also, passing through areas which would normally be a hive of activity, especially at bank holidays, and were scary quiet, which was good to see.

The problem is though, in condensed areas where people all come out and all head for the local parks and areas to exercise, then create, unintentionally, a ‘gathering’, then those people in quieter areas will start to venture out more and for longer, so it’s a double edged sword, we’re either in a lockdown with clear red lines, or not, so the country can understand and follow the ‘laws’, if that is indeed what they are!
		
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i agree.  many people are comparing us to Spain and the level they have chosen.   our government have chosen not to take this route based on "the science".  they even said the modeling took into consideration that some people would not adhere to the rules.   
then you get the people that say we should be doing what the Spanish and Italians are doing when they have zero information, statistics and professionals giving them information.   yet they know better.     
in my opinion the government are fully aware of what's happening and whether I like it or nor they're in a better position than me to make informed decisions.   so I think we should leave them to it.      I'm starting to get board of the same people bitching about it from behind a key board (not aimed at you)


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 13, 2020)

Interesting read with the obvious advantage of hindsight.
UK government went from saying sporting events presented no risk to banning them in one day...Mid March.


https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/11/...ts-woeful-response-to-the-coronavirus-crisis/


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## Slime (Apr 13, 2020)

Another poor attempt at slagging off the current Tory government, well done, you must be pleased.
Please just accept that we voted to leave the EU and that the Tories won the previous general election with a landslide.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

Not counting the US......
Figures show that more people died yesterday in the UK than any other country on the planet.


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## hovis (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Not counting the US......
Figures show that more people died yesterday in the UK than any other country on the planet.
		
Click to expand...

and.... two weeks ago you couldn't have written that.  in two weeks time you won't be able to write that either.  I'd see the value in your post if the whole world was at the same point of the outbreak.  stand by for Africa and India.


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Fish said:



			But is it a lockdown though?

Aren’t these people simply exercising, especially if they live local, and like some, believe it’s absolutely within the  guidelines that they can walk for 2hrs, run for 90mins or even cycle for possibly longer?

The ‘stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives’ doesn’t seem to be enforceable when there’s a caveat to be able to exercise, which can be, and in some cases is, being interpreted and manipulated to be able to stay out far longer than any ‘guidelines’, which by all accounts, ‘holds no weight’!

Until there are very clear lines drawn, which can be enforced, photos like this, of what can be perceived as far too many people in any one area, will carry on, as each and everyone of those people will be claiming there simply exercising, and there doesn’t seem to be a clear definition as to what that should be so it can be followed correctly, especially if it’s supposed to be a ‘law’ and not a suggestion!
		
Click to expand...

Interesting post Robin. Some “choice” terminology 😂😂😂


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Interesting post Robin. Some “choice” terminology 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

It’s odd how with personal experience, the feeling is that the lockdown is being complied with, but there’s a call for stricter measures based on a long lense photo with no distance perspective.


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## hovis (Apr 13, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s odd how with personal experience, the feeling is that the lockdown is being complied with, but there’s a call for stricter measures based on a long lense photo with no distance perspective.
		
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who was probably waiting for an hour to get the best photo too!


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s odd how with personal experience, the feeling is that the lockdown is being complied with, but there’s a call for stricter measures based on a long lense photo with no distance perspective.
		
Click to expand...

What's that saying... The camera adds 10 ppl


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

therod said:



			It’s odd how with personal experience, the feeling is that the lockdown is being complied with, but there’s a call for stricter measures based on a long lense photo with no distance perspective.
		
Click to expand...

From my personal experience, the VAST majority of people are doing exactly what is being requested by the Government. The Government are stating that they are following the advice of the scientists. The scientists are telling us that they are following the science. But instead, we should listen to some random golfer on a forum.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 13, 2020)

A 65 minute webinar for starters o a Monday on PPE (apparently we have sufficient stock, although precious sign of it on the unit), escalation plans, staffing levels and other Covid associated stuff. All in all I'd say we've had a good Easter to date. Only 2 admissions since the 11th and 3 deaths. The only downside is some of those that have been here a while are not responding as well as hoped and a few getting worse which doesn't bode well. That said, I expected this weekend to be a real peak, followed by another in 10-14 days following so many people mingling in the hot Easter weather. Will be interesting to see how we progress at a local level, but things definitely seem to be flattening out

As promised, the lady I spoke about yesterday, our longest Covid admission came to ICU 10th March and left on the 12th April to a respiratory ward where she is apparently still doing well.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 13, 2020)

Does anyone else not worry about those carrying the virus unknowingly? Sir Kenny  was a prime example. He had been isloting longer than recommended, and yet still tested positive with no symptoms.
I'm not having any dig at King Kenny, but does it not highlight how we could be spreading the virus and not know we are because we appear perfectly healthy in that regard?


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## Slime (Apr 13, 2020)

I have to be honest, I was very pleasantly surprised by how few people appeared to be breaking the lockdow guidance that we've been given. In fact, I'm almost shocked.


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Does anyone else not worry about those carrying the virus unknowingly? Sir Kenny  was a prime example. He had been isloting longer than recommended, and yet still tested positive with no symptoms.
I'm not having any dig at King Kenny, but does it not highlight how we could be spreading the virus and not know we are because we appear perfectly healthy in that regard?
		
Click to expand...

There a better things to worry about than the unknown.


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## JamesR (Apr 13, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Does anyone else not worry about those carrying the virus unknowingly? Sir Kenny  was a prime example. He had been isloting longer than recommended, and yet still tested positive with no symptoms.
I'm not having any dig at King Kenny, but does it not highlight how we could be spreading the virus and not know we are because we appear perfectly healthy in that regard?
		
Click to expand...

I don’t understand why/how he got tested, if he was showing no symptoms?


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Does anyone else not worry about those carrying the virus unknowingly? Sir Kenny  was a prime example. He had been isloting longer than recommended, and yet still tested positive with no symptoms.
I'm not having any dig at King Kenny, but does it not highlight how we could be spreading the virus and not know we are because we appear perfectly healthy in that regard?
		
Click to expand...

Not particularly. From my limited understanding (I’m no pandemic expert like some on this forum), the plan has always been to slow down the rate of infection so that the Health Service can cope. The plan has never been to stop it. We can’t stop it until a vaccine is developed. 

Even if everyone in the country stayed in their own home for 3 months the virus would return as soon as travel was allowed. So, we have in place a partial lockdown. I can go to work. Exercise. Go shopping (food and drink). The infection rate diminishes. The NHS cope with the increase in admissions. A vaccine is hopefully developed. The economy stumbles on, but doesn’t completely crash and burn.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 13, 2020)

Anyone watching BBC news right now? Heartbreaking listening to a woman talking about her father on the verge of death as she speaks 

Update: At the end of the interview they said he has been taken off a ventilator as there is nothing more that can be done for him. The man's wife is alone at home, she can't be there with him and the daughter can't support her mother. It really brings home the situation we are in right now.


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## USER1999 (Apr 13, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I don’t understand why/how he got tested, if he was showing no symptoms?
		
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Because he was in hospital for some other problem, and I guess they wanted to know what else they could be dealing with.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			From my personal experience, the VAST majority of people are doing exactly what is being requested by the Government. The Government are stating that they are following the advice of the scientists. The scientists are telling us that they are following the science. But instead, we should listen to some random golfer on a forum.
		
Click to expand...

I'd rather people just stayed inside to help prevent more deaths.


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## Imurg (Apr 13, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I don’t understand why/how he got tested, if he was showing no symptoms?
		
Click to expand...

He was in hospital as he needed IV antibiotics for another condition and as such was routinely tested.


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'd rather people just stayed inside to help prevent more deaths.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think the Government are doing a bad job?


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## drdel (Apr 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			What's that saying... The camera adds 10 ppl
		
Click to expand...

The media like ground level camera shots of 'crowds'because it foreshortens distances. To get a true image of the distances and spacing between families and or individuals you need a picture taken from vertically above.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I don’t understand why/how he got tested, if he was showing no symptoms?
		
Click to expand...

He went to hospital for another condition to be treated with intravenous antibiotics. Policy now is ,,if you go to hospital for any treatment of anything you are tested for the virus.
He was , and it came back positive.
I imagine he was as surprised as anyone.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Do you think the Government are doing a bad job?
		
Click to expand...

I think they haven't gone far enough with the lockdown in the hope the ''medium restrictions'' will do the job.
A full lockdown would be very unpopular with the voters and sadly, I think that is in the back of their minds.
My main hope is Boris.
He's been there, he knows what it's like and hopefully he'll put in place a stricter lockdown.


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think they haven't gone far enough with the lockdown in the hope the ''medium restrictions'' will do the job.
A full lockdown would be very unpopular with the voters and sadly, I think that is in the back of their minds.
My main hope is Boris.
He's been there, he knows what it's like and hopefully he'll put in place a stricter lockdown.
		
Click to expand...

What would a stricter lockdown look like for you?


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think they haven't gone far enough with the lockdown in the hope the ''medium restrictions'' will do the job.
A full lockdown would be very unpopular with the voters and sadly, I think that is in the back of their minds.
My main hope is Boris.
He's been there, he knows what it's like and hopefully he'll put in place a stricter lockdown.
		
Click to expand...

I would respectfully disagree. They know exactly what they’re doing. I would say that (IMO) they were too slow to react at the start (Cheltenham and the Stereophonics gig spring to mind), but the lockdown they’ve put in place is designed to do exactly what they want it to do.

Unless you’re saying that they’re lying when they say that they’re following the scientists advice.


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I would respectfully disagree. They know exactly what they’re doing. I would say that (IMO) they were too slow to react at the start (Cheltenham and the Stereophonics gig spring to mind), but the lockdown they’ve put in place is designed to do exactly what they want it to do.

*Unless you’re saying that they’re lying when they say that they’re following the scientists advice*.
		
Click to expand...

All too easy to spin that though;

Gov – So scientist what about going out for exercise during the lockdown
Scientist – not recommended 
Gov – noted... but well we kind of need some guidance _because we do intend to allow it_
Scientist – In that case, only go out once a day and try to keep it under an hour 
Gov – Cool so that’s the scientists advice on exercise sorted


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

therod said:



			What would a stricter lockdown look like for you?
		
Click to expand...

Something similar to Spain or Italy


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2020)

^ But if you agree we are tracking 2 weeks behind them both?


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			All too easy to spin that though;

Gov – So scientist what about going out for exercise during the lockdown
Scientist – not recommended
Gov – noted... but well we kind of need some guidance _because we do intend to allow it_
Scientist – In that case, only go out once a day and try to keep it under an hour
Gov – Cool so that’s the scientists advice on exercise sorted
		
Click to expand...

Very true, but it does kind of prove my point that the current lockdown rules are exactly what the government want. If they want a total lockdown then they can have one. But they don’t. For whatever reason, they want a partial lockdown with several exclusions that allow people to get out of the house and exercise, as long as they practice social distancing. 

We can all take a guess why they want this particular type of lockdown, but let’s not be under any illusion. It is exactly what they want.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			New cases reported in the UK yesterday 5,288
Deaths reported yesterday  737

Spain
New cases 2992
Deaths   366
View attachment 29921

Click to expand...

Can’t really compare those photos!
One is a park.
One is a Main Street under tighter lockdown.
Just a little question “ can horses get the virus”
If so they are in danger so is it fair the police taking them out.?


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Very true, but it does kind of prove my point that the current lockdown rules are exactly what the government want. If they want a total lockdown then they can have one. But they don’t. For whatever reason, they want a partial lockdown with several exclusions that allow people to get out of the house and exercise, as long as they practice social distancing.

We can all take a guess why they want this particular type of lockdown, but let’s not be under any illusion. It is exactly what they want.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, each Gov will be balancing their lockdown measures against the forecast of lives lost, ability to maintain control and their economy


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			Yup, each Gov will be balancing their lockdown measures against the forecast of lives lost, ability to maintain control and their economy
		
Click to expand...

Yup. I’m well known for not being Team Tory. And I do think they were too slow to react at the start. But I will not criticise those leading the Country at the moment as I would not like to be faced with the decisions they are currently being presented with. 

They have a plan. I’ve no idea whether it’s a good one or not. But they are soon going to have to make a very tough call, knowing people will die. 

Not for all the money in the world would I swap places.


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2020)

It’s also a misnomer to state no of deaths as a indicator of the success or otherwise of the lockdown. Hospital capacity, specifically ICU is a better indication


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

therod said:



			^ But if you agree we are tracking 2 weeks behind them both?
		
Click to expand...

Italy and Spain have been on full lockdown for over a month, that's why their figures are dropping.
We are on 'medium lockdown'


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## User20205 (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Italy and Spain have been on full lockdown for over a month, that's why their figures are dropping.
We are on 'medium lockdown'
		
Click to expand...

You can’t make conclusions until we are on the same part of the curve. I’m not disagreeing with you necessarily but you need to make a fair comparison.
Also full lockdown, what’s that look like specifically, no exercise outside the home, no dog walking?


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## Ross61 (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Italy and Spain have been on full lockdown for over a month, that's why their figures are dropping.
We are on 'medium lockdown'
		
Click to expand...

In a couple of weeks the uk graph will look very similar, what are you not getting about the time lag?


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## hovis (Apr 13, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			In a couple of weeks the uk graph *will* look very similar, what are you not getting about the time lag?
		
Click to expand...

you don't know that.  neither do the experts


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2020)

therod said:



			You can’t make conclusions until we are on the same part of the curve. I’m not disagreeing with you necessarily but you need to make a fair comparison.
Also full lockdown, *what’s that look like specifically, no exercise outside the home, no dog walking?*

Click to expand...

Different country altogether so limited use as a comparison but that's the kind of measures we have. In addition; all non essential business were mandated to close, employers do not have a choice. No travel without a permit, food shopping on designated days, 30 min max instore & you must submit to a temp test before entry & off to isolation centre if its too high (wonder how many in the UK would still pop to the shops 5 times a week if they risked not returning home!) 

We are officially under curfew measures. Although I'm not sure how Brits would react (comply) with a more severe lockdown, prob not very well


----------



## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Italy and Spain have been on full lockdown for over a month, that's why their figures are dropping.
We are on 'medium lockdown'
		
Click to expand...

If their lockdown is working then how come there are still 000s of cases still every day in these countries. 

Lockdown doesn't stop the virus from spreading, you do understand that, don't you ?


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			In a couple of weeks the uk graph will look very similar, what are you not getting about the time lag?
		
Click to expand...

You think so?
Bearing in mind Spain and Italy are on full lockdown and have been for a month and we are still partying with our mates


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## BrianM (Apr 13, 2020)

Well, feel a lot better today, only mild symptoms are sore throat, tiredness, dry cough and nose like a tap.
Im hoping the runny nose and clear mucus when coughing is the virus leaving the body.
Test is on Wednesday afternoon.
Another 7 boys from rig tested yesterday, so awaiting there results also.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

Get well soon Brian


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## Captainron (Apr 13, 2020)

So the initial 21 day lockdown finishes tonight.

I think there will be a further 21 days added and there will be a full lockdown on exercise etc. Only way to leave your home is to go shopping for food or medical needs. 

Best way to give us a chance in this.


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## Ross61 (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You think so?
Bearing in mind Spain and Italy are on full lockdown and have been for a month and we are still partying with our mates
		
Click to expand...

You are not seeing the reality, I have been out working (key worker) there may be a few idiots out there but the roads are relatively empty. I travel down the M1 in beds/herts there is quite a lot of lorries and vans but non that many cars. The towns are also virtually void of pedestrians. The pictures you see of lots of people are the media making a story much worse that reality. Watch any sport such as a marathon, Tour de France or an F1 race with the camera in front of the leader and it looks like everyone is grouped up, go the the overheads and they are spread 10’s of yards or more apart.


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## Billysboots (Apr 13, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			You are not seeing the reality, I have been out working (key worker) there may be a few idiots out there but the roads are relatively empty. I travel down the M1 in beds/herts there is quite a lot of lorries and vans but non that many cars. The towns are also virtually void of pedestrians. The pictures you see of lots of people are the media making a story much worse that reality. Watch any sport such as a marathon, Tour de France or an F1 race with the camera in front of the leader and it looks like everyone is grouped up, go the the overheads and they are spread 10’s of yards or more apart.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. We don’t see full press/media coverage of events in Italy, Spain and France, but sure as night follows day there will be breaches of their lockdowns, just the same as we have here. And I also absolutely agree that the press are going to focus on the house parties, the street drinkers and so on. A photo of a virtually deserted motorway or city street doesn’t work as click bait, does it?

There are any number of reasons we cannot compare countries closely, not least the family demographic in countries like Italy, where close family ties and regular gatherings are far more of a way of life than in the UK. The rates of transmission are likely to be very different country to country.

The next week will tell us if the experts have got this right. I for one am happy to place my trust in them.


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## Beezerk (Apr 13, 2020)

Our football league officially cancelled, absolutely gutted.


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## Crazyface (Apr 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I agree. We don’t see full press/media coverage of events in Italy, Spain and France, but sure as night follows day there will be breaches of their lockdowns, just the same as we have here. And I also absolutely agree that the press are going to focus on the house parties, the street drinkers and so on. A photo of a virtually deserted motorway or city street doesn’t work as click bait, does it?

There are any number of reasons we cannot compare countries closely, not least the family demographic in countries like Italy, where close family ties and regular gatherings are far more of a way of life than in the UK. The rates of transmission are likely to be very different country to country.

*The next week will tell us if the experts have got this right. I for one am happy to place my trust in them*.
		
Click to expand...

We have no choice. I think they have under cooked it and should have been more severe and earlier, and so do most people. I hope that we will learn from this and the next time anything is reported we shut down port and airports immediately in incoming from the effected country.


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## Billysboots (Apr 13, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			We have no choice. I think they have under cooked it and should have been more severe and earlier, and so do most people. I hope that we will learn from this and the next time anything is reported we shut down port and airports immediately in incoming from the effected country.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree we should have perhaps acted earlier in many respects. Tighter border controls are perhaps the best example.

But we have the benefit of hindsight. The Government are having to make daily decisions, based on data and scientific evidence from multiple sources, much of it reliable, some of it less so. The experts can only do so much, and they can’t second guess a virus which is unprecedented.

We have absolutely no choice but to trust them, I agree. I don’t want to lose my faith in them, because it’s that faith which is helping me keep perspective.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			You are not seeing the reality, I have been out working (key worker) there may be a few idiots out there but the roads are relatively empty. I travel down the M1 in beds/herts there is quite a lot of lorries and vans but non that many cars. The towns are also virtually void of pedestrians. The pictures you see of lots of people are the media making a story much worse that reality. Watch any sport such as a marathon, Tour de France or an F1 race with the camera in front of the leader and it looks like everyone is grouped up, go the the overheads and they are spread 10’s of yards or more apart.
		
Click to expand...

Dated 9 April
*Coronavirus: Greater Manchester Police warning after 660 parties shut down*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688


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## Billysboots (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Dated 9 April
*Coronavirus: Greater Manchester Police warning after 660 parties shut down*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

Click to expand...

To try and add some perspective, GMP do police a population in the region of three million people.

Too many are flouting the lockdown, and this is replicated across the UK. But I’m sure it’s also replicated across Europe, so don’t be fooled into believing the Italians and Spanish are paragons of virtue, because I’m quite sure they aren’t.


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## Ross61 (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Dated 9 April
*Coronavirus: Greater Manchester Police warning after 660 parties shut down*

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-52221688

Click to expand...

Do you not think the same headline would have happened with a stricter lockdown?


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## PNWokingham (Apr 13, 2020)

i think this article sums up the best plan

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...edicted-european-epidemic-calls-end-lockdown/ 

A leading German epidemiologist who predicted the coronavirus crisis in Europe is now calling for governments to end the lockdown.

Prof Alexander Kekulé warned the virus was about to engulf Europe and publicly urged Angela Merkel’s government to start screening international travellers as early as January.

But he now believes the lockdown is in danger of going on too long and causing more damage than the virus, and has drawn up a plan for how it can be safely lifted.

“It’s impossible to wait for a vaccine,” Prof Kekulé told The Telegraph. “The quickest we could have a vaccine ready is in six months. Based on experience, I’d say the reality is closer to a year. We can’t stay under lockdown for six months to a year. If we did that our society and our culture would be ruined.”

Prof Kekulé, the head of microbiology at Halle University, has been the Cassandra of Germany’s coronavirus crisis. As early as January 22, he called for travellers to be tested for the virus at airports and borders. He appeared on national television, but his warnings fell on deaf ears. Now the world is in the grip of a widespread pandemic:


“If we had started testing and following the chains of infection in January, we could have contained the epidemic here without resorting to a lockdown,” he says. “If you can get to people by the time they’ve infected 20 people you can stop it. But by the time it’s 400, there’s no chance.”

By March, when the virus had Germany in its grip, he was calling for the border to be closed and schools to shut down. 

“At that stage a lockdown was the only option to slow the spread and prevent hospitals being overwhelmed,” he says. “But now we have to consider the possibility that a long lockdown may end up doing more harm than the virus.” 

Angela Merkel has dampened hopes of restrictions ending any time soon, telling Germans this week: “We must not be reckless now. We could very quickly destroy what we have achieved.”


Not for the first time in this crisis, Prof Kekulé finds himself on the opposite side of the argument from Mrs Merkel. When he urged her government to do more about the virus in January, she chose to wait and see. Now he says the lockdown can be safely lifted by following a simple three-point plan. 

First, he says, the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions who are most vulnerable to the virus must remain in isolation.

“We have to persuade them to stay at home, and that means we have to find ways of making it bearable for them, such as apps that will allow them to order their shopping or continue their social life,” he says.

“If they are determined to go out, fine — but they have to wear full FFP medical standard masks.”

That brings us to the second point in Prof Kekulé’s plan: a move from social distancing to what he calls “smart distancing”.

“We need to adapt distancing to the situation. A cashier at a supermarket check-out, for instance, is going to be exposed to infection all day. He needs to wear a mask, he needs proper hygiene measures. A taxi driver needs to learn not to touch his face after handling money.”

Basically, we all need to get used to wearing facemasks, Prof Kekulé says. “If you look at Hong Kong, they managed to avoid a major outbreak there and they’re very close to Guangdong in mainland China, which was badly affected. One of the key differences was they started wearing facemasks early in Hong Kong.”

Wedding dress and evening wear designer Friederike Jorzig adjusts a mannequin wearing a wedding dress with matching protective mask in her store Chiton in Berlin on March 31, 2020 as the Germany continue to battle the Covid-19 corona virus pandemic
A German designer is offering wedding dresses with matching facemasks CREDIT:  ODD ANDERSEN/AFP
An ordinary surgical mask is sufficient for those who are not especially vulnerable, he says, and there’s no need to wear one while going for a walk. “In an open air setting a mask isn’t that effective. But in any indoors setting when others are there, we should all be wearing them.”

He’s even come up with a slogan to convince people, “Kein Held ohne Maske”, and an English version: “Be a masked superhero”.

Thirdly, and most controversially, Prof Kekulé says we have to let the young get the virus.

“People under 50 are very, very unlikely to die or get seriously ill from the coronavirus,” he says. “We have to let them get infected so they can develop immunity.”

Essentially, this is a return to the herd immunity plan once backed by the UK and widely seen as discredited. But Prof Kekulé argues that once the outbreak is under control and hospitals are not overwhelmed, there is a place for it.

Children are least at risk so the lockdown should be lifted at schools and kindergartens first, he says — a plan already adopted by Denmark, which plans to reopen schools after Easter.


----------



## Mudball (Apr 13, 2020)

saw on the web today... was posted by someone who is a Labour baiter..  so makes it more funny


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## Billysboots (Apr 13, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Do you not think the same headline would have happened with a stricter lockdown?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i think this article sums up the best plan

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...edicted-european-epidemic-calls-end-lockdown/

A leading German epidemiologist who predicted the coronavirus crisis in Europe is now calling for governments to end the lockdown.

Prof Alexander Kekulé warned the virus was about to engulf Europe and publicly urged Angela Merkel’s government to start screening international travellers as early as January.

But he now believes the lockdown is in danger of going on too long and causing more damage than the virus, and has drawn up a plan for how it can be safely lifted.

“It’s impossible to wait for a vaccine,” Prof Kekulé told The Telegraph. “The quickest we could have a vaccine ready is in six months. Based on experience, I’d say the reality is closer to a year. We can’t stay under lockdown for six months to a year. If we did that our society and our culture would be ruined.”

Prof Kekulé, the head of microbiology at Halle University, has been the Cassandra of Germany’s coronavirus crisis. As early as January 22, he called for travellers to be tested for the virus at airports and borders. He appeared on national television, but his warnings fell on deaf ears. Now the world is in the grip of a widespread pandemic:


“If we had started testing and following the chains of infection in January, we could have contained the epidemic here without resorting to a lockdown,” he says. “If you can get to people by the time they’ve infected 20 people you can stop it. But by the time it’s 400, there’s no chance.”

By March, when the virus had Germany in its grip, he was calling for the border to be closed and schools to shut down.

“At that stage a lockdown was the only option to slow the spread and prevent hospitals being overwhelmed,” he says. “But now we have to consider the possibility that a long lockdown may end up doing more harm than the virus.”

Angela Merkel has dampened hopes of restrictions ending any time soon, telling Germans this week: “We must not be reckless now. We could very quickly destroy what we have achieved.”


Not for the first time in this crisis, Prof Kekulé finds himself on the opposite side of the argument from Mrs Merkel. When he urged her government to do more about the virus in January, she chose to wait and see. Now he says the lockdown can be safely lifted by following a simple three-point plan.

First, he says, the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions who are most vulnerable to the virus must remain in isolation.

“We have to persuade them to stay at home, and that means we have to find ways of making it bearable for them, such as apps that will allow them to order their shopping or continue their social life,” he says.

“If they are determined to go out, fine — but they have to wear full FFP medical standard masks.”

That brings us to the second point in Prof Kekulé’s plan: a move from social distancing to what he calls “smart distancing”.

“We need to adapt distancing to the situation. A cashier at a supermarket check-out, for instance, is going to be exposed to infection all day. He needs to wear a mask, he needs proper hygiene measures. A taxi driver needs to learn not to touch his face after handling money.”

Basically, we all need to get used to wearing facemasks, Prof Kekulé says. “If you look at Hong Kong, they managed to avoid a major outbreak there and they’re very close to Guangdong in mainland China, which was badly affected. One of the key differences was they started wearing facemasks early in Hong Kong.”

Wedding dress and evening wear designer Friederike Jorzig adjusts a mannequin wearing a wedding dress with matching protective mask in her store Chiton in Berlin on March 31, 2020 as the Germany continue to battle the Covid-19 corona virus pandemic
A German designer is offering wedding dresses with matching facemasks CREDIT:  ODD ANDERSEN/AFP
An ordinary surgical mask is sufficient for those who are not especially vulnerable, he says, and there’s no need to wear one while going for a walk. “In an open air setting a mask isn’t that effective. But in any indoors setting when others are there, we should all be wearing them.”

He’s even come up with a slogan to convince people, “Kein Held ohne Maske”, and an English version: “Be a masked superhero”.

Thirdly, and most controversially, Prof Kekulé says we have to let the young get the virus.

“People under 50 are very, very unlikely to die or get seriously ill from the coronavirus,” he says. “We have to let them get infected so they can develop immunity.”

Essentially, this is a return to the herd immunity plan once backed by the UK and widely seen as discredited. But Prof Kekulé argues that once the outbreak is under control and hospitals are not overwhelmed, there is a place for it.

Children are least at risk so the lockdown should be lifted at schools and kindergartens first, he says — a plan already adopted by Denmark, which plans to reopen schools after Easter.
		
Click to expand...

I’m a very long way away from the esteemed Professors credentials. However, this mirrors what I’ve been thinking for the last few weeks. Our global economic model does not allow for an extended lockdown. Our only real way forward is to relax the lockdown whilst making every effort practicable to restrict the spread. 

It won’t be a popular plan, but a global economic meltdown would be even less popular. Like I said on a previous post. Someone is going to have to make a very difficult decision. Knowing that people will die. Knowing that history may not be kind to them. I wouldn’t swap places with them.


----------



## Bunkermagnet (Apr 13, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i think this article sums up the best plan

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...edicted-european-epidemic-calls-end-lockdown/

A leading German epidemiologist who predicted the coronavirus crisis in Europe is now calling for governments to end the lockdown.

Prof Alexander Kekulé warned the virus was about to engulf Europe and publicly urged Angela Merkel’s government to start screening international travellers as early as January.

But he now believes the lockdown is in danger of going on too long and causing more damage than the virus, and has drawn up a plan for how it can be safely lifted.

“It’s impossible to wait for a vaccine,” Prof Kekulé told The Telegraph. “The quickest we could have a vaccine ready is in six months. Based on experience, I’d say the reality is closer to a year. We can’t stay under lockdown for six months to a year. If we did that our society and our culture would be ruined.”

Prof Kekulé, the head of microbiology at Halle University, has been the Cassandra of Germany’s coronavirus crisis. As early as January 22, he called for travellers to be tested for the virus at airports and borders. He appeared on national television, but his warnings fell on deaf ears. Now the world is in the grip of a widespread pandemic:


“If we had started testing and following the chains of infection in January, we could have contained the epidemic here without resorting to a lockdown,” he says. “If you can get to people by the time they’ve infected 20 people you can stop it. But by the time it’s 400, there’s no chance.”

By March, when the virus had Germany in its grip, he was calling for the border to be closed and schools to shut down.

“At that stage a lockdown was the only option to slow the spread and prevent hospitals being overwhelmed,” he says. “But now we have to consider the possibility that a long lockdown may end up doing more harm than the virus.”

Angela Merkel has dampened hopes of restrictions ending any time soon, telling Germans this week: “We must not be reckless now. We could very quickly destroy what we have achieved.”


Not for the first time in this crisis, Prof Kekulé finds himself on the opposite side of the argument from Mrs Merkel. When he urged her government to do more about the virus in January, she chose to wait and see. Now he says the lockdown can be safely lifted by following a simple three-point plan.

First, he says, the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions who are most vulnerable to the virus must remain in isolation.

“We have to persuade them to stay at home, and that means we have to find ways of making it bearable for them, such as apps that will allow them to order their shopping or continue their social life,” he says.

“If they are determined to go out, fine — but they have to wear full FFP medical standard masks.”

That brings us to the second point in Prof Kekulé’s plan: a move from social distancing to what he calls “smart distancing”.

“We need to adapt distancing to the situation. A cashier at a supermarket check-out, for instance, is going to be exposed to infection all day. He needs to wear a mask, he needs proper hygiene measures. A taxi driver needs to learn not to touch his face after handling money.”

Basically, we all need to get used to wearing facemasks, Prof Kekulé says. “If you look at Hong Kong, they managed to avoid a major outbreak there and they’re very close to Guangdong in mainland China, which was badly affected. One of the key differences was they started wearing facemasks early in Hong Kong.”

Wedding dress and evening wear designer Friederike Jorzig adjusts a mannequin wearing a wedding dress with matching protective mask in her store Chiton in Berlin on March 31, 2020 as the Germany continue to battle the Covid-19 corona virus pandemic
A German designer is offering wedding dresses with matching facemasks CREDIT:  ODD ANDERSEN/AFP
An ordinary surgical mask is sufficient for those who are not especially vulnerable, he says, and there’s no need to wear one while going for a walk. “In an open air setting a mask isn’t that effective. But in any indoors setting when others are there, we should all be wearing them.”

He’s even come up with a slogan to convince people, “Kein Held ohne Maske”, and an English version: “Be a masked superhero”.

Thirdly, and most controversially, Prof Kekulé says we have to let the young get the virus.

“People under 50 are very, very unlikely to die or get seriously ill from the coronavirus,” he says. “We have to let them get infected so they can develop immunity.”

Essentially, this is a return to the herd immunity plan once backed by the UK and widely seen as discredited. But Prof Kekulé argues that once the outbreak is under control and hospitals are not overwhelmed, there is a place for it.

Children are least at risk so the lockdown should be lifted at schools and kindergartens first, he says — a plan already adopted by Denmark, which plans to reopen schools after Easter.
		
Click to expand...

Problem is though that unless every country does exactly the same at more or less the same time, you see things like whats happening in China where the return of people has brought new cases back into the country and spread it again.
At what point do we have to accept that perhaps the only way to get through this is to let it run riot through our country and take whatevers coming. Can we hide from it forever?


----------



## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			To try and add some perspective, GMP do police a population in the region of three million people.

Too many are flouting the lockdown, and this is replicated across the UK. But I’m sure it’s also replicated across Europe, so don’t be fooled into believing the Italians and Spanish are paragons of virtue, because I’m quite sure they aren’t.
		
Click to expand...

Over 60,000 fines in Spain, and that doesn't include all the 'chats' that the police have had. Different areas of Spain have been better at it than others, which in itself may prove to be a blessing and a curse. The area I live is reputed to be in the top 3 for no infections - there's been 5 across 6 towns. But what happens to those towns when the lockdown is lifted?


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Well on my two week holiday from the forum the Tories have gone from actually handling the situation quite well in my eyes to handling it quite well but also doing everything they can to blame us for their failings. What a government.


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## Beezerk (Apr 13, 2020)

🙈


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Well on my two week holiday from the forum the Tories have gone from actually handling the situation quite well in my eyes to handling it quite well but also doing everything they can to blame us for their failings. What a government.
		
Click to expand...

Were you really on holiday or were you serving a ban


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Well on my two week holiday from the forum the Tories have gone from actually handling the situation quite well in my eyes to handling it quite well but also doing everything they can to blame us for their failings. What a government.
		
Click to expand...

Any examples to qualify your statement?


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			Were you really on holiday or were you serving a ban
		
Click to expand...

Obviously I meant I was banned.


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Any examples to qualify your statement?
		
Click to expand...

Priti Patel’s “apology”.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 13, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Problem is though that unless every country does exactly the same at more or less the same time, you see things like whats happening in China where the return of people has brought new cases back into the country and spread it again.
At what point do we have to accept that perhaps the only way to get through this is to let it run riot through our country and take whatevers coming. Can we hide from it forever?
		
Click to expand...

I think letting it run riot would be a disaster,it would probably get out of control.
We need to keep an eye on it.
As you say sooner or later something forward thinking will have to happen.
The bail out of funds by the government was for 3 months at the cost of 100s of billions,can the government do it again for  another 3 months?i seriously doubt it.
For me even sending my children back to school when they open again will be a difficult decision,in fact I probably won’t until I can be sure it’s safe.
Tough times ahead and some very tough decisions to be made.


----------



## huds1475 (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m a very long way away from the esteemed Professors credentials. However, this mirrors what I’ve been thinking for the last few weeks. Our global economic model does not allow for an extended lockdown. Our only real way forward is to relax the lockdown whilst making every effort practicable to restrict the spread.

It won’t be a popular plan, but a global economic meltdown would be even less popular. Like I said on a previous post. Someone is going to have to make a very difficult decision. Knowing that people will die. Knowing that history may not be kind to them. I wouldn’t swap places with them.
		
Click to expand...

Devils advocate question... What’s preferable? The economic systems going to pot or millions of people being wiped out? 

The ‘lift restrictions’ argument seems to focus on economic benefits and ignore the fact that not enough is known about immunity and how the virus behaves, it is brand new after all. I’m not trying to be overly dramatic, but I can’t see past the whole situation looping if travel restrictions (particularly international) are released. 

Wave after wave of this doesn’t feel like a particularly nice place, would that not be more liable to make society crumble?

I’m also, you’ll be amazed to know, no economic expert but for a long time have felt that the way we live now isn’t right. I’d be a big supporter of UBI for example. Maybe the idea of the current econmic systems having to be recalibrated is something that has the potential to benefit everyone (although highly unlikely)?

Would be interesting to chew this over


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Devils advocate question... What’s preferable? The economic systems going to pot or millions of people being wiped out?

The ‘lift restrictions’ argument seems to focus on economic benefits and ignore the fact that not enough is known about immunity and how the virus behaves, it is brand new after all. I’m not trying to be overly dramatic, but I can’t see past the whole situation looping if travel restrictions (particularly international) are released.

Wave after wave of this doesn’t feel like a particularly nice place, would that not be more liable to make society crumble?

I’m also, you’ll be amazed to know, no economic expert but for a long time have felt that the way we live now isn’t right. I’d be a big supporter of UBI for example. Maybe the idea of the current econmic systems having to be recalibrated is something that has the potential to benefit everyone (although highly unlikely)?

Would be interesting to chew this over
		
Click to expand...

Hey Craig. I think you and I would agree on many things. And in all honesty, I’m not qualified to say which would be worse. However, with regards to the current economic model, we have to plan for the model we have, not the model we want. I just don’t believe there’s enough momentum or consensus for a switch to a more equitable system. UBI is a minor possibility, but I’d say it was unlikely unless we have a fairly seismic Covid experience (which we still might).

Whatever happens, the next 12-18 months are going to be “interesting”


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## Stuart_C (Apr 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Well on my two week holiday from the forum the Tories have gone from actually handling the situation quite well in my eyes to handling it quite well but also doing everything they can to blame us for their failings. What a government.
		
Click to expand...

Welcome back KF👍🏻


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Priti Patel’s “apology”.
		
Click to expand...

So one sentence in one briefing constitutes the govt is failing badly. Let's be honest here Mark you've returned from your ban, that undoubtedly you felt unjustified, and you just want to carry on stirring the crap in your usual argumentative way. Its pathetic. For Christ's sake grow up


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## Stuart_C (Apr 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So one sentence in one briefing constitutes the govt is failing badly. Let's be honest here Mark you've returned from your ban, that undoubtedly you felt unjustified, and you just *want to carry on stirring the crap in your usual argumentative way*. Its pathetic. For Christ's sake grow up
		
Click to expand...

Bit harsh that Bri, there’s one or two others who do far worse.


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Bit harsh that Bri, there’s one or two others who do far worse.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry big man 😉


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			I think letting it run riot would be a disaster,it would probably get out of control.
We need to keep an eye on it.
As you say sooner or later something forward thinking will have to happen.
The bail out of funds by the government was for 3 months at the cost of 100s of billions,can the government do it again for  another 3 months?i seriously doubt it.
For me even sending my children back to school when they open again will be a difficult decision,in fact I probably won’t until I can be sure it’s safe.
Tough times ahead and some very tough decisions to be made.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm not a fan of the herd thingy
I mean the Uk's only at 0.15% tested positive so even if the un-tested positive multiples that by 10 that's still only 1.5% that have got it & herd solution is what something like 80% need to get it

Current level seems like a really low penetration figure to suddenly chuck in the towel and let 52,000000 get it (80%)


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## MegaSteve (Apr 13, 2020)

The more I read/hear of potential pathways for future management of the virus I can see me being confined to home for many more months probably up to a year...


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## Stuart_C (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry big man 😉
		
Click to expand...

Oops I missed you out....Make that 3 😂


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Bit harsh that Bri, there’s one or two others who do far worse.
		
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I wouldn't mind if he made a discussion out of it. Brought the context of the comment into it and made a proper case for it. Its just one of his usual one liners that are thrown out there. I know him and have played golf with him a few times although I haven't seen him for a few years but he's a bright guy. You really can have a proper discussion with him on numerous topics but on here he's a grade A1...


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## Robster59 (Apr 13, 2020)

I never got my Marmite Easter Egg.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't mind if he made a discussion out of it. Brought the context of the comment into it and made a proper case for it. Its just one of his usual one liners that are thrown out there. I know him and have played golf with him a few times although I haven't seen him for a few years but he's a bright guy. You really can have a proper discussion with him on numerous topics but on here he's a grade A1...
		
Click to expand...

Take a look at yourself Bri, he‘s made a comment that’s negative to the government and straight away you’re on his case. You’re better than that. 

Some on here see any negative post towards the regime now as “party politics” and can’t see past there own views. The current gov aren’t beyond criticism.

Anyway, KF’s a clever enough lad to fight his own battles and there’s too many know all‘s  on this thread, so I’ll hibernate elsewhere👍🏻


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			So one sentence in one briefing constitutes the govt is failing badly. Let's be honest here Mark you've returned from your ban, that undoubtedly you felt unjustified, and you just want to carry on stirring the crap in your usual argumentative way. Its pathetic. For Christ's sake grow up
		
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Did I say they’re failing badly? Or did I say they’re handling it quite well?


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't mind if he made a discussion out of it. Brought the context of the comment into it and made a proper case for it. Its just one of his usual one liners that are thrown out there. I know him and have played golf with him a few times although I haven't seen him for a few years but he's a bright guy. You really can have a proper discussion with him on numerous topics but on here he's a grade A1...
		
Click to expand...

The reason I don’t get into “debates” on here is because we all know that no one changes their view. Life’s too short.


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Take a look at yourself Bri, he‘s made a comment that’s negative to the government and straight away you’re on his case. You’re better than that.

Some on here see any negative post towards the regime now as “party politics” and can’t see past there own views. The current gov aren’t beyond criticism.

Anyway, KF’s a clever enough lad to fight his own battles and there’s too many know all‘s  on this thread, so I’ll hibernate elsewhere👍🏻
		
Click to expand...

Thanks mate. Hopefully we can have a game of golf after all this nonsense blows over. If I can escape the inevitable dark cloud that would hover over me, I’d love to get myself along to another meet one day.


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## BrianM (Apr 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The reason I don’t get into “debates” on here is because we all know that no one changes their view. Life’s too short.
		
Click to expand...

Why comment in the first place then......


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Why comment in the first place then......
		
Click to expand...

So people know my view, obviously. I long since accepted that people don’t change their mind often.


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Take a look at yourself Bri, he‘s made a comment that’s negative to the government and straight away you’re on his case. You’re better than that.

Some on here see any negative post towards the regime now as “party politics” and can’t see past there own views. The current gov aren’t beyond criticism.

Anyway, KF’s a clever enough lad to fight his own battles and there’s too many know all‘s  on this thread, so I’ll hibernate elsewhere👍🏻
		
Click to expand...

The debate was had several pages back on PPE and Patel's poor apology. It revolved around the purchasing process the various hospital Trusts have. Patel was asked to apologise for something that isn't the govt's fault.

Maybe ask KF what his job was/is for many years. Purchasing manager for hospitals. He knows full well what the process is but chose to use Patel's apology for a disingenuous dig.

That's what pee'd me off. He knows better.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I would respectfully disagree. They know exactly what they’re doing. I would say that (IMO) they were too slow to react at the start (Cheltenham and the Stereophonics gig spring to mind), but the lockdown they’ve put in place is designed to do exactly what they want it to do.

Unless you’re saying that they’re lying when they say that they’re following the scientists advice.
		
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I don't think that Bobmacs post and yours are at odds, not the way I read it.
He didn't suggest that the government didn't intend what they did, only that they didn't go for a tougher lockdown because of the possible reaction against it that some would have and the difficulty of enforcement maybe. 
Of course the government lockdown is designed to do what they want, they just wanted the Country to follow it and things would be as expected as per the science advice. It's the idiots who are taking no notice that is causing a possible re-think.
I don think there is a suggestion by Bobmac that the government is lying.😀


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So people know my view, obviously. I long since accepted that people don’t change their mind often.
		
Click to expand...

What did you get banned for ? 

It's like trying to have an adult conversation in a playgroup on here.


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			What did you get banned for ?

It's like trying to have an adult conversation in a playgroup on here.
		
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I accumulated infraction points. I disagree with the reason I was issued the most recent points but life goes on. No point banging on about it.


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The debate was had several pages back on PPE and Patel's poor apology. It revolved around the purchasing process the various hospital Trusts have. Patel was asked to apologise for something that isn't the govt's fault.

Maybe ask KF what his job was/is for many years. Purchasing manager for hospitals. He knows full well what the process is but chose to use Patel's apology for a disingenuous dig.

That's what pee'd me off. He knows better.
		
Click to expand...

I’ve never been involved in purchasing in the NHS.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 13, 2020)

Desperate measures - had to get David to cut my hair today...me "it usually grows into a sort of pointy bit at the back"..."you should have mentioned you wanted to keep the pointy bit"!!

It's only the back but actually looks ok


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## huds1475 (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Hey Craig. I think you and I would agree on many things. And in all honesty, I’m not qualified to say which would be worse. However, with regards to the current economic model, we have to plan for the model we have, not the model we want. I just don’t believe there’s enough momentum or consensus for a switch to a more equitable system. UBI is a minor possibility, but I’d say it was unlikely unless we have a fairly seismic Covid experience (which we still might).

Whatever happens, the next 12-18 months are going to be “interesting”
		
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Don’t think anyone has the answer unfortunately. I have been struck over the last few days though, by the abundance of articles arguing for removing lockdown for economic reasons.

From those I’ve read, none provide a compelling case either way, but that could be the reader rather than the article!

My head keeps going back to the arguments for / against Brexit ‘back in the day’, soundbites over facts but on a more lethal scale!

On the plus side though, my respect for the press is declining in direct correlation to my respect for the government rising. Like you, I appreciate the challenge of the situation those responsible for trying to find the right path through this, and admire their efforts. WOuld also happily chop the press off the daily briefings


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Well on my two week holiday from the forum the Tories have gone from actually handling the situation quite well in my eyes to handling it quite well but also doing everything they can to blame us for their failings. What a government.
		
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Straight back in with your party politics


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Straight back in with your party politics
		
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If something is out of the government’s hands then I expect them to say it clearly, not as a sneering fake apology. Not even a Conservative voter could defend her mealy mouthed statement.


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## User62651 (Apr 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			Different country altogether so limited use as a comparison but that's the kind of measures we have. In addition; all non essential business were mandated to close, employers do not have a choice. No travel without a permit, food shopping on designated days, 30 min max instore & you must submit to a temp test before entry & off to isolation centre if its too high (wonder how many in the UK would still pop to the shops 5 times a week if they risked not returning home!)

We are officially under curfew measures. Although I'm not sure how Brits would react (comply) with a more severe lockdown, prob not very well
		
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What kind of govt do you normally have, is it zero tolerance strict? 


Kellfire said:



			Well on my two week holiday from the forum the Tories have gone from actually handling the situation quite well in my eyes to handling it quite well but also doing everything they can to blame us for their failings. What a government.
		
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Did you mean to say 'quite well' twice? Typo?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Don’t think anyone has the answer unfortunately. I have been struck over the last few days though, by the abundance of articles arguing for removing lockdown for economic reasons.

From those I’ve read, none provide a compelling case either way, but that could be the reader rather than the article!

My head keeps going back to the arguments for / against Brexit ‘back in the day’, soundbites over facts but on a more lethal scale!

*On the plus side though, my respect for the press is declining in direct correlation to my respect for the government rising. Like you, I appreciate the challenge of the situation those responsible for trying to find the right path through this, and admire their efforts. WOuld also happily chop the press off the daily briefings*

Click to expand...




Haven't seen it better put.


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I don't think that Bobmacs post and yours are at odds, not the way I read it.
He didn't suggest that the government didn't intend what they did, only that they didn't go for a tougher lockdown because of the possible reaction against it that some would have and the difficulty of enforcement maybe.
Of course the government lockdown is designed to do what they want, they just wanted the Country to follow it and things would be as expected as per the science advice. It's the idiots who are taking no notice that is causing a possible re-think.
I don think there is a suggestion by Bobmac that the government is lying.😀
		
Click to expand...

I think that where we would disagree is the level of lockdown that the government actually wanted. I believe that the current state (minus the idiots who are breaking the actual rules) is exactly what they wanted. They want people out working, spending, exercising etc. They don’t want people locked in and totally isolating themselves from society. 

My belief is that they want to reduce the level of infection, but not at the expense of the economy. Bob (understandably) has been very vocal about people staying at home. He was still of the opinion that people didn’t need to go to work unless they were frontline workers only last week. He thinks that there should be a much tougher lockdown. 

My view is that if the government wanted people to stay inside all day then they wouldn’t have made the exceptions quite as broad as they did. The 1 hour limit is a good example if this. It doesn’t exist. There is no such thing. It was given as an example in one interview by one Minister. If they wanted it they’d have included it. Yet people are still referencing it every 5 minutes. 

So, either the Government is following the scientists, who are following the science. Or they’re not. But people seem to want it both ways. If the Government are following the science, then the rules laid down are good enough. If we want to read extra precautions into the rules then the Government must be getting it wrong. 

It can’t be both...


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## Kellfire (Apr 13, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Did you mean to say 'quite well' twice? Typo?
		
Click to expand...

Yes.  No.


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## bluewolf (Apr 13, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Don’t think anyone has the answer unfortunately. I have been struck over the last few days though, by the abundance of articles arguing for removing lockdown for economic reasons.

From those I’ve read, none provide a compelling case either way, but that could be the reader rather than the article!

My head keeps going back to the arguments for / against Brexit ‘back in the day’, soundbites over facts but on a more lethal scale!

On the plus side though, my respect for the press is declining in direct correlation to my respect for the government rising. Like you, I appreciate the challenge of the situation those responsible for trying to find the right path through this, and admire their efforts. WOuld also happily chop the press off the daily briefings
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think there is an answer currently. How can there be? This is unprecedented. Understanding the global economy is hard enough. Understanding it and then comparing it to the effects of a global pandemic is impossible. Someone is going to have to be either very brave, or very detached in order to make the necessary decision.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think that where we would disagree is the level of lockdown that the government actually wanted. I believe that the current state (minus the idiots who are breaking the actual rules) is exactly what they wanted. They want people out working, spending, exercising etc. They don’t want people locked in and totally isolating themselves from society.

My belief is that they want to reduce the level of infection, but not at the expense of the economy. Bob (understandably) has been very vocal about people staying at home. He was still of the opinion that people didn’t need to go to work unless they were frontline workers only last week. He thinks that there should be a much tougher lockdown.

My view is that if the government wanted people to stay inside all day then they wouldn’t have made the exceptions quite as broad as they did. The 1 hour limit is a good example if this. It doesn’t exist. There is no such thing. It was given as an example in one interview by one Minister. If they wanted it they’d have included it. Yet people are still referencing it every 5 minutes.

So, either the Government is following the scientists, who are following the science. Or they’re not. But people seem to want it both ways. If the Government are following the science, then the rules laid down are good enough. If we want to read extra precautions into the rules then the Government must be getting it wrong.

It can’t be both...
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you completely. I was only saying that I thought Bobmacs post, as I read it, didn't disagree with what you had said, and therefore he wouldn't have thought the government would have been lying.
I only was going on the two posts I saw , yours and his that you replied to.😀

As to what you say here above, I agree. What you say is what the government did and why. It may be , in the light of events since (non compliance and the extent of movement under exercise, that the government may amend the rules. We shall see. It's a weighty decision to make, I have to say.
Sooner them than me. I am reminded of Lincoln's speech " ....will light us down in history.....etc"


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## drdel (Apr 13, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i think this article sums up the best plan

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...edicted-european-epidemic-calls-end-lockdown/

A leading German epidemiologist who predicted the coronavirus crisis in Europe is now calling for governments to end the lockdown.

Prof Alexander Kekulé warned the virus was about to engulf Europe and publicly urged Angela Merkel’s government to start screening international travellers as early as January.

But he now believes the lockdown is in danger of going on too long and causing more damage than the virus, and has drawn up a plan for how it can be safely lifted.

“It’s impossible to wait for a vaccine,” Prof Kekulé told The Telegraph. “The quickest we could have a vaccine ready is in six months. Based on experience, I’d say the reality is closer to a year. We can’t stay under lockdown for six months to a year. If we did that our society and our culture would be ruined.”

Prof Kekulé, the head of microbiology at Halle University, has been the Cassandra of Germany’s coronavirus crisis. As early as January 22, he called for travellers to be tested for the virus at airports and borders. He appeared on national television, but his warnings fell on deaf ears. Now the world is in the grip of a widespread pandemic:


“If we had started testing and following the chains of infection in January, we could have contained the epidemic here without resorting to a lockdown,” he says. “If you can get to people by the time they’ve infected 20 people you can stop it. But by the time it’s 400, there’s no chance.”

By March, when the virus had Germany in its grip, he was calling for the border to be closed and schools to shut down.

“At that stage a lockdown was the only option to slow the spread and prevent hospitals being overwhelmed,” he says. “But now we have to consider the possibility that a long lockdown may end up doing more harm than the virus.”

Angela Merkel has dampened hopes of restrictions ending any time soon, telling Germans this week: “We must not be reckless now. We could very quickly destroy what we have achieved.”


Not for the first time in this crisis, Prof Kekulé finds himself on the opposite side of the argument from Mrs Merkel. When he urged her government to do more about the virus in January, she chose to wait and see. Now he says the lockdown can be safely lifted by following a simple three-point plan.

First, he says, the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions who are most vulnerable to the virus must remain in isolation.

“We have to persuade them to stay at home, and that means we have to find ways of making it bearable for them, such as apps that will allow them to order their shopping or continue their social life,” he says.

“If they are determined to go out, fine — but they have to wear full FFP medical standard masks.”

That brings us to the second point in Prof Kekulé’s plan: a move from social distancing to what he calls “smart distancing”.

“We need to adapt distancing to the situation. A cashier at a supermarket check-out, for instance, is going to be exposed to infection all day. He needs to wear a mask, he needs proper hygiene measures. A taxi driver needs to learn not to touch his face after handling money.”

Basically, we all need to get used to wearing facemasks, Prof Kekulé says. “If you look at Hong Kong, they managed to avoid a major outbreak there and they’re very close to Guangdong in mainland China, which was badly affected. One of the key differences was they started wearing facemasks early in Hong Kong.”

Wedding dress and evening wear designer Friederike Jorzig adjusts a mannequin wearing a wedding dress with matching protective mask in her store Chiton in Berlin on March 31, 2020 as the Germany continue to battle the Covid-19 corona virus pandemic
A German designer is offering wedding dresses with matching facemasks CREDIT:  ODD ANDERSEN/AFP
An ordinary surgical mask is sufficient for those who are not especially vulnerable, he says, and there’s no need to wear one while going for a walk. “In an open air setting a mask isn’t that effective. But in any indoors setting when others are there, we should all be wearing them.”

He’s even come up with a slogan to convince people, “Kein Held ohne Maske”, and an English version: “Be a masked superhero”.

Thirdly, and most controversially, Prof Kekulé says we have to let the young get the virus.

“People under 50 are very, very unlikely to die or get seriously ill from the coronavirus,” he says. “We have to let them get infected so they can develop immunity.”

Essentially, this is a return to the herd immunity plan once backed by the UK and widely seen as discredited. But Prof Kekulé argues that once the outbreak is under control and hospitals are not overwhelmed, there is a place for it.

Children are least at risk so the lockdown should be lifted at schools and kindergartens first, he says — a plan already adopted by Denmark, which plans to reopen schools after Easter.
		
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A fine theoretical strategy from Prof Alexander Kekulé BUT only  if there's almost unlimited capacity to care for the infected. If you want to minimise unnecessary deaths in the real world with finite health care capacity the rate of infections must be managed as best one can. 'Herd immunity' is still a long term feasible plan plus vaccines, it just treats the elderly and vulnerable as expendable cannon fodder.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 13, 2020)

Lets look another way at this then.
Will the NHS ever be in  a sitaution where it can cope. If the answer is "no" ( and I believe that is the answer looking at beds, staffing required and equipment needed) how long can we actually survive and cope the way we are?
As I said previous, China is seeing a new increase in numbers of new cases as a result of infected people returning from across boarders and then infecting others already home. How do we deal with that or get to the point where that doesn't worry us?


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## upsidedown (Apr 13, 2020)

Stewards have just had to hoof off two chaps who thought they could play a few holes , not members 😠😠


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 13, 2020)

I'm amazed that people are suddenly realizing the majority of our press are not the greatest from watching the daily press briefings.  Like where have you been for the last decade?


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			How do we deal with that or get to the point where that doesn't worry us?
		
Click to expand...


Herd immunity is the only way to overcome things and get back to normal.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm amazed that people are suddenly realizing the majority of our press are not the greatest from watching the daily press briefings.  Like where have you been for the last decade?  

Click to expand...

I don't think it's that so much. Knowing what they are like in ordinary circumstances is pretty universal , it's just that this being a national crisis I for one, hoped they would have the common good more uppermost in their behaviour. 
Hope and expectation, however, are not the same thing😀


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Take a look at yourself Bri, he‘s made a comment that’s negative to the government and straight away you’re on his case. You’re better than that.

Some on here see any negative post towards the regime now as “party politics” and can’t see past there own views. The current gov aren’t beyond criticism.

Anyway, KF’s a clever enough lad to fight his own battles and there’s too many know all‘s  on this thread, so I’ll hibernate elsewhere👍🏻
		
Click to expand...

You do that and while away contemplating your navel think on your own words and how you may be a complete parallel of people you so readily decry so vehemently.  You are as much a part of the problem so please drop the hypocracy.


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm amazed that people are suddenly realizing the majority of our press are not the greatest from watching the daily press briefings.  Like where have you been for the last decade?  

Click to expand...

Unfortunately we have gained a press which want to make news rather than report it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You do that and while away contemplating your navel think on your own words and how you may be a complete parallel of people you so readily decry so vehemently.  You are as much a part of the problem so please drop the hypocracy.
		
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And calling people hypocrites helps? Does it? .....


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Herd immunity is the only way to overcome things and get back to normal.
		
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Would you be happy to be one of those thrown under a bus so that others can get back to normal.  How many deaths are an acceptable price, I was of the opinion all life was worth preserving.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			And calling people hypocrites helps? Does it? .....
		
Click to expand...

Yes, when they are being hypocritical. Maybe you have an opinion on his accusations of others while excluding himself.


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## bobmac (Apr 13, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I think that where we would disagree is the level of lockdown that the government actually wanted. I believe that the current state (minus the idiots who are breaking the actual rules) is exactly what they wanted. They want people out working, spending, exercising etc. They don’t want people locked in and totally isolating themselves from society.

My belief is that they want to reduce the level of infection, but not at the expense of the economy. Bob (understandably) has been very vocal about people staying at home. He was still of the opinion that people didn’t need to go to work unless they were frontline workers only last week. He thinks that there should be a much tougher lockdown.

My view is that if the government wanted people to stay inside all day then they wouldn’t have made the exceptions quite as broad as they did. The 1 hour limit is a good example if this. It doesn’t exist. There is no such thing. It was given as an example in one interview by one Minister. If they wanted it they’d have included it. Yet people are still referencing it every 5 minutes.

So, either the Government is following the scientists, who are following the science. Or they’re not. But people seem to want it both ways. If the Government are following the science, then the rules laid down are good enough. If we want to read extra precautions into the rules then the Government must be getting it wrong.

It can’t be both...
		
Click to expand...

My comments were to do with the person who was still at work making commemoritive coins and how I thought that people with jobs that weren't impotant should stay at home safe.
As far as the lockdown is concerned, firstly you ask them to stay at home, and if they don't do as asked then you tell them.
Medium measures should be enough but it the selfish idiots continue to go out unnecessarily then, everyone suffers.


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## patricks148 (Apr 13, 2020)

more evidence people just don't get it...

two guys in the bught park hitting golf balls about 150 yards, but onlt about 50 yards from the road with lots of out walking, only a shank away... then heading back home passed two houses having a BBQ with each with a dozen or so people in the Garden


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 13, 2020)

I'm right you're wrong...neh neh neh neh neh.

I'm just glad we are all healthy and hope we can stay that way. 
Whether I'm right or wrong...I hope we all and everyone we love and is important to us stays well and healthy, and if we are so unlucky do get it are able to survive and pull through.

Here's hoping


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, when they are being hypocritical. Maybe you have an opinion on his accusations of others views.
		
Click to expand...

I do, but I also have an opinion on people trying to be the Forum Police, 
I’d much rather members report such posts rather than take on the perp themselves
Especially when it comes down to this example


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I do, but I also have an opinion on people trying to be the Forum Police,
I’d much rather members report such posts rather than take on the perp themselves
Especially when it comes down to this example
		
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OK, that's a fair point


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## pendodave (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you be happy to be one of those thrown under a bus so that others can get back to normal.  How many deaths are an acceptable price, I was of the opinion all life was worth preserving.
		
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This is just not the case though. NICE has always had a formula which evaluates the cost of care against extending life of a certain quality.
People die every day of preventable causes which we have accepted as a cost of our current lifestyles and economic success (air quality, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, alcohol, smoking, road accidents etc etc etc).
There's literally never been a time where all life has been worth preserving at any cost.


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## User62651 (Apr 13, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			more evidence people just don't get it...

two guys in the bught park hitting golf balls about 150 yards, but onlt about 50 yards from the road with lots of out walking, only a shank away... then heading back home passed two houses having a BBQ with each with a dozen or so people in the Garden

Click to expand...

There were quite a number of families joining with other neighbouring families at the outset for the lockdown so they could cover each others kids as adults went to work and young ones had playmates etc. The BBQs could be from that scenario, i.e. they are one big group for purposes of isolating. 
Or they could be eejits.

The golfers should be chased. Bught is big but it should be a safe exercise space for all.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

pendodave said:



			This is just not the case though. NICE has always had a formula which evaluates the cost of care against extending life of a certain quality.
People die every day of preventable causes which we have accepted as a cost of our current lifestyles and economic success (air quality, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, alcohol, smoking, road accidents etc etc etc).
There's literally never been a time where all life has been worth preserving at any cost.
		
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I disagree except in the case where quality of life is so poor then death becomes a release.  A society that decides this or that life is worth ending as it's not ecconomically or socially justified is a society that is inhumane and bordering the regime we did so much in the last centuary to defeat.


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## pendodave (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree except in the case where quality of life is so poor then death becomes a release.  A society that decides this or that life is worth ending as it's not ecconomically or socially justified is a society that is inhumane and bordering the regime we did so much in the last centuary to defeat.
		
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What do you disagree with? That we currently don't don't  this or that we shouldn't? 
The evidence is overwhelming that we do. 
I would also add in our continued acceptance of poverty when it is so well documented as leading to greatly reduced length and quality of life.


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you be happy to be one of those thrown under a bus so that others can get back to normal.  How many deaths are an acceptable price, I was of the opinion all life was worth preserving.
		
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It's been said a million times, lockdown was only introduced to slow the spread, not stop the spread. It's also been said 60-80% of the population will get it, so slowing the spread is only to assist the NHS in coping with the infections, the dying is going to happen regardless, herd immunity or a vaccine is the only way to stop the dying.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You do that and while away contemplating your navel think on your own words and how you may be a complete parallel of people you so readily decry so vehemently.  You are as much a part of the problem so please drop the *hypocracy*.
		
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Is this classed as trolling or stalking?? 😏

Sticking your oar in where it doesn't concern you? I bet you're the ear wigging type aswell  aren't you? The forums own Norris Cole 😁

Anyway that's the last bone I'll be giving you, Mr know all.

Have a very nice evening.

PS. If you're going to accuse someone of something, please make sure you spell it correctly 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It's been said a million times, lockdown was only introduced to slow the spread, not stop the spread. It's also been said 60-80% of the population will get it, so slowing the spread is only to assist the NHS in coping with the infections, the dying is going to happen regardless, herd immunity or a vaccine is the only way to stop the dying.
		
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Actually the "dying is going to happen regardless" is incorrect

You are correct that lockdown will delay the spread, meaning that the NHS will hopefully, be able to cope and not be overwhelmed at any point in time
Thus ensuring that all who need ventilators have access to them, a good number of those will recover

If the NHS were to be overwhelmed, then there would not be enough ventilators to go round and people would be dropping like flies

Far fewer will die as a result of the lockdown measures currently in operation and likely to be extended

But yes, vaccine or get it and survive are the only long term outcomes now


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## Slime (Apr 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I'd rather people just stayed inside to help prevent more deaths.
		
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Face it Bob, that just isn't going to happen.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			She spoke very well, why not try a catchup on it before issueing the vitriolic outpouring of divisive bile above, or am I misinterpreting your well honed sarcastic attributes.  How about we give the Government a modicum of support in these very difficult circumstances.
		
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Well said


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Actually the "dying is going to happen regardless" is incorrect

You are correct that lockdown will delay the spread, meaning that the NHS will hopefully, be able to cope and not be overwhelmed at any point in time
Thus ensuring that all who need ventilators have access to them, a good number of those will recover

If the NHS were to be overwhelmed, then there would not be enough ventilators to go round and people would be dropping like flies

Far fewer will die as a result of the lockdown measures currently in operation and likely to be extended

But yes, vaccine or get it and survive are the only long term outcomes now
		
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Possibly the "regardless" part left out and we're there. 

There seems to be some kind of misconception that dying won't happen but we've been made very aware that it will, it's essentially a lottery, folk with no under lying health problems dying, some with not.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 13, 2020)

No new admissions all day. Had a death late on as I left (not 100% sure it was Covid related) so a pretty stagnant day in terms of incoming and outgoing patients. Does that mean the slope is flattening or at a local level have we just been lucky to date? Still a large number of deaths announced. Likely to continue in lockdown as predicted by most https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...to-relax-covid-19-lockdown-this-week-11972724 

One disturbing paragraph from the article though - The confirmed UK death toll *passed 10,000* at the weekend, with a government adviser and infectious diseases expert warning the country could end up being the *"worst affected country in Europe".*


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

It's my belief that the long term effect of lockdown can be far more fatal in the long run than that of the virus itself.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It's my belief that the long term effect of lockdown can be far more fatal in the long run than that of the virus itself.
		
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Economically or humainly?


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## chrisd (Apr 13, 2020)

I looked at the numbers of confirmed cases in Kent today and, according to the BBC news 1500 (almost) in a population of 1.5m are confirmed cases, but acknowledges not all cases are reported - I reckon lockdown must play a part in keeping numbers down


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Is this classed as trolling or stalking?? 😏

Sticking your oar in where it doesn't concern you? I bet you're the ear wigging type aswell  aren't you? The forums own Norris Cole 😁

Anyway that's the last bone I'll be giving you, Mr know all.

Have a very nice evening.

PS. If you're going to accuse someone of something, please make sure you spell it correctly 👍
		
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😄


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Economically or humainly?
		
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A number of reason, economically due to having to pay for it in future, poverty due to, having to pay for it in future, suicides, domestic abuse, current already on going health issues that have likely been put off til later. 

The cure may well be a lot worse than the disease.


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## Foxholer (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree *except in the case where quality of life is so poor then death becomes a release*.  A society that decides this or that life is worth ending as it's not ecconomically or socially justified is a society that is inhumane and bordering the regime we did so much in the last centuary to defeat.
		
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How is that, the bold bit, actually different to what you disagreed with?
Your 2nd sentence implies folk are actually being killed, as opposed to being let 'fade away'! I don't believe this actually happens in UK.


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2020)

Just been informed that close family friend has just died from the virus. 

He did have leukemia but it was being managed and all the signs were very positive. 

He went to hospital early last week for treatment with his Leukemia but suddenly developed Covid-19 symptoms during the week and was admitted on Friday, due to his current condition combined with the virus, he passed away yesterday. 

Only a week ago all was rosy, leaping over all the main hurdles, then wooosh, gone!

It has been stated, by doctors, as he’s not been out anywhere that he possibly contracted it at the hospital on his last visit, but due to his current treatment & condition, the virus couldn’t be fought. 

Yes he had underlining conditions, but this is how quick things can happen and turnaround so tragically.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 13, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I looked at the numbers of confirmed cases in Kent today and, according to the BBC news 1500 (almost) in a population of 1.5m are confirmed cases, but acknowledges not all cases are reported - I reckon lockdown must play a part in keeping numbers down
		
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I looked at that as well because my parents live in Herne Bay.. the week before it was 878 .. should have made a plot on it to see if it was climbing at a similar rate as Oxfordshire. Just out of interest, and to see if London Manchester and Birmingham are the highest or biggest growing areas


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh, I must have been watching a different Daily briefing, in the one I watched she spoke well and seemed to give a good update and answer questions confidently.  Did you try removing your anti-conservative filters before watching?
		
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Bunkermagnet said:



			Lets look another way at this then.
Will the NHS ever be in  a sitaution where it can cope. If the answer is "no" ( and I believe that is the answer looking at beds, staffing required and equipment needed) how long can we actually survive and cope the way we are?
As I said previous, China is seeing a new increase in numbers of new cases as a result of infected people returning from across boarders and then infecting others already home. How do we deal with that or get to the point where that doesn't worry us?
		
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This is the great mystery China are telling us they have only had 3,000 odd deaths and if you believe them new cases recorded are coming over the border from Russia.
They have miraculously almost defeated the virus it can't have been with herd immunity if only 3,000 odd deaths, so exactly whats going on my belief is they are suppressing the truth.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 13, 2020)

Fish said:



			Just been informed that close family friend has just died from the virus.

He did have leukemia but it was being managed and all the signs were very positive.

He went to hospital early last week for treatment with his Leukemia but suddenly developed Covid-19 symptoms during the week and was admitted on Friday, due to his current condition combined with the virus, he passed away yesterday.

Only a week ago all was rosy, leaping over all the main hurdles, then wooosh, gone!

It has been stated, by doctors, as he’s not been out anywhere that he possibly contracted it at the hospital on his last visit, but due to his current treatment & condition, the virus couldn’t be fought.

Yes he had underlining conditions, but this is how quick things can happen and turnaround so tragically.
		
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Sorry to hear about that - we have had a similar experience with someone close to us
Sadly some people are more vulnerable - earlier than expected death is still a tragedy for such people and their loved ones


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			my belief is they are suppressing the truth.
		
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Are you known as Einstein to your friends or Sherlock perhaps ?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			How is that, the bold bit, actually different to what you disagreed with?
Your 2nd sentence implies folk are actually being killed, as opposed to being let 'fade away'! I don't believe this actually happens in UK.
		
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Read the post that I was replying to then read mine again in context.

It was suggested life wasnt worth saving at all cost thus indicating some lives should be sacrificed.  My point was this is wrong except in cases where death is a welcome release for the individual.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Fish said:



			Just been informed that close family friend has just died from the virus.

He did have leukemia but it was being managed and all the signs were very positive.

He went to hospital early last week for treatment with his Leukemia but suddenly developed Covid-19 symptoms during the week and was admitted on Friday, due to his current condition combined with the virus, he passed away yesterday.

Only a week ago all was rosy, leaping over all the main hurdles, then wooosh, gone!

It has been stated, by doctors, as he’s not been out anywhere that he possibly contracted it at the hospital on his last visit, but due to his current treatment & condition, the virus couldn’t be fought.

Yes he had underlining conditions, but this is how quick things can happen and turnaround so tragically.
		
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So sad.


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## hovis (Apr 13, 2020)

my neighbour died today.  I knew he had sepsis following a hip operation but he was sent home after he got better.   his daughter wrote on FB that he had lost his battle with coronavirus.  I'm confused as to why he was at home "battling" coronavirus and not at hospital.   I only saw him 4 days ago and he seemed OK and never mentioned coronavirus. .    bit of a shock when it's so close to home


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			A number of reason, economically due to having to pay for it in future, poverty due to, having to pay for it in future, suicides, domestic abuse, current already on going health issues that have likely been put off til later.

The cure may well be a lot worse than the disease.
		
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Do you not accept that those cases you mention can be prevented in many cases with lifestyle choices.  Do you honest believe a policy that would potentially throw millions  or even tens of millions of people under the bus an acceptable policy for a government to take.   Really!


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you not accept that those cases you mention can be prevented in many cases with lifestyle choices.  Do you honest believe a policy that would potentially throw millions  or even tens of millions of people under the bus an acceptable policy for a government to take.   Really!
		
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What policy would throw tens of millions of people under the bus ?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			What policy would throw tens of millions of people under the bus ?
		
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Letting the virus run freely through the population.


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2020)

hovis said:



			my neighbour died today.  I knew he had sepsis following a hip operation but he was sent home after he got better.   his daughter wrote on FB that he had lost his battle with coronavirus.  I'm confused as to why he was at home "battling" coronavirus and not at hospital.   I only saw him 4 days ago and he seemed OK and never mentioned coronavirus. .    bit of a shock when it's so close to home
		
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I think the thought process is, that if you don’t need respiratory help, oxygen/ventilator, then you may as well self isolate at home than take up bed space in the hospital.


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Letting the virus run freely through the population.
		
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Tens of millions ?

Where have you seen anywhere the mention of tens of millions ? The worst case scenario was 500,000 is we did nothing, absolutely nothing, yet you produce a figure of tens of millions.


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## IainP (Apr 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			.....
One disturbing paragraph from the article though - The confirmed UK death toll *passed 10,000* at the weekend, with a government adviser and infectious diseases expert warning the country could end up being the *"worst akffected country in Europe".*

Click to expand...

Hope your place stays relatively quiet.

On the paragraph, if as I suspect they are using death toll as the measure, with the UK being the 2nd or 3rd most population in Europe (depending how you  view Russia), and with Germany either doing very well, or using a different counting method (via _Robert Koch Institute (RKI) ) - _then UK being "worst affected" is almost a cert


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Fish said:



			I think the thought process is, that if you don’t need respiratory help, oxygen/ventilator, then you may as well self isolate at home than take up bed space in the hospital.
		
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My Daughter in London who lives on her own has just had it,  She was quite poorly for a while and had two paramedic visits but I guess due to her being 40 it was decided to let her ride it out at home.  It was a very worrying time.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Are you known as Einstein to your friends or Sherlock perhaps ?
		
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If you wish to reply to a post make it constructive.


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			If you wish to reply to a post make it constructive.
		
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I couldn't careless if you reply to my post or not, what would possibly make you think that I thought you important enough to wish you to reply.


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## huds1475 (Apr 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm amazed that people are suddenly realizing the majority of our press are not the greatest from watching the daily press briefings.  Like where have you been for the last decade?  

Click to expand...

I was articulating that the Government’s standing has gone up, whist the the press’s has gone down, in my view. Neither were particularly high to start with.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Tens of millions ?

Where have you seen anywhere the mention of tens of millions ? The worst case scenario was 500,000 is we did nothing, absolutely nothing, yet you produce a figure of tens of millions.
		
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Who knows potentially how many if its left to RIP through society, it's new and no one knows what would happen if left unchecked.  Look what's happening in New York, imagine London.  Anyhow, what number is acceptable to you, 500,000. ?


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My Daughter in London who lives on her own has just had it,  She was quite poorly for a while and had two paramedic visits but I guess due to her being 40 it was decided to let her ride it out at home.  It was a very worrying time.
		
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And I think they’re are possibly thousands of similarities like this, being visited via or spoken to over the phone via 111 that aren’t part of the figures we see?


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Who knows potentially how many if its left to RIP through society, it's new and no one knows what would happen if left unchecked.  Look what's happening in New York, imagine London.  Anyhow, what number is acceptable to you, 500,000. ?
		
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You're now exaggerating on what I said but as for a figure, can't give you one, but one thing I do know is, lockdown forever isn't the cure.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I couldn't careless if you reply to my post or not, what would possibly make you think that I thought you important enough to wish you to reply.
		
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I'll leave that to others to decipher.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			There was that tragic story of the nurse whose family tried four times to get him to hospital but each time he was refused and he ended up dying at home. It must be terrifying to have a loved one suffering with it. Sounds like she's on the mend now though?
		
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She is thanks but still quite weak and has pluericy.  Spent a lot of time with her on video trying to reassure her, we sent her boxes of supplies but I did mention on here before that I was humbled by the help she got from local people taking in her dogs and shopping for her.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You're now exaggerating on what I said but as for a figure, can't give you one, but one thing I do know is, lockdown forever isn't the cure.
		
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Lockdown cant be for ever, it will probably be eased as the number of cases become lower, vunerable people will probably have to endure it longer until a vaccine is available.

I'm only asking you how many people you consider is an acceptable number to die so that restrictions can be removed.


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## Foxholer (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Read the post that I was replying to then read mine again in context.

It was suggested life wasnt worth saving at all cost thus indicating some lives should be sacrificed.  My point was this is wrong except in cases where death is a welcome release for the individual.
		
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That's not quite how I read/interpreted it. I'd need to check, but, I believe, that's also not how the clinical assessment is made. From what I understand, death or vegetative state has to be inevitable before active care becomes palliative care. And I know of cases where that care can be for a considerable length of time! 'Cost' isn't a consideration and it was probably a bit clumsy for the Op to use that word.

Your (or indeed any) approach still has the issue of - what and who determines the 'a welcome release' point!

Edit. Good to hear your daughter is coming through it.


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## User20204 (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm only asking you how many people you consider is an acceptable number to die so that restrictions can be removed.
		
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There isn't an "_acceptable number_" there will just be a number that _will  _die, whether we like it or not as has already happened. 

For the record, I haven't earned a single penny in almost 4 weeks now, not likely to for a number of weeks, possibly months, am I an acceptable casualty if I die through hunger, suicide, or some other issue brought on by the restrictions ?


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## drdel (Apr 13, 2020)

Every government uses a value of life in economic assessment. I know back in the 70s it was about £350k. It's a harsh reality but that is the painful judgements being made by politicians. 
Hosiptals will assess who gets treatments. There are guidelines that ranks your "value' by age and frailty.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's not quite how I read/interpreted it. I'd need to check, but, I believe, that's also not how the clinical assessment is made. From what I understand, death or vegetative state has to be inevitable before active care becomes palliative care. And I know of cases where that care can be for a considerable length of time! 'Cost' isn't a consideration and it was probably a bit clumsy for the Op to use that word.

Your (or indeed any) approach still has the issue of - what and who determines the 'a welcome release' point!

Edit. Good to hear your daughter is coming through it.
		
Click to expand...

My main point wasnt really about releasing critically ill people it was more about the ethics of lifting restrictions so the virus would take it's natural (herd) course to help the ecconomy and minimise poverty verses protecting the vulnerable in society.

Thanks, shes slowly getting better.


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## IainP (Apr 13, 2020)

IainP said:



			Belgium doesn't seem to receive the media attention here, probably because the numbers aren't as large as others. But if you look at relative to population only Spain & Italy are suffering more than them.
		
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Italian outcast said:



			I work with people there on a daily basis - they are well aware how serious it is for them
		
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As of today Belgium are pretty much even with Italy.
Still the BBC don't seem to be reporting on this unless I keep missing it. Some insights may be informative.


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## Foxholer (Apr 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Every government uses a value of life in economic assessment. I know back in the 70s it was about £350k. It's a harsh reality but that is the painful judgements being made by politicians.
Hosiptals will assess who gets treatments. There are guidelines that ranks your "value' by age and frailty.
		
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Indeed!
To eliminate the scary concept of 'how much is prolonging this particular person's life worth', the numbers have been made less personal by 'for (the same) £X required to extend this life, we can save the lives of Y other patients'. It's (having to make) decisions like this that cause medical folk the greatest angst!


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## drdel (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My main point wasnt really about releasing critically ill people it was more about the ethics of lifting restrictions so the virus would take it's natural (herd) course to help the ecconomy and minimise poverty verses protecting the vulnerable in society.

Thanks, shes slowly getting better.
		
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Ethics are laudable and morally right but often not affordable in the real. world


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			There isn't an "_acceptable number_" there will just be a number that _will  _die, whether we like it or not as has already happened.

For the record, I haven't earned a single penny in almost 4 weeks now, not likely to for a number of weeks, possibly months, am I an acceptable casualty if I die through hunger, suicide, or some other issue brought on by the restrictions ?
		
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I am not God so cant make decisions like that.  I just want us to protect and look after each other. If we become a society that decides to throw any vunerable people (including you) under a bus then I would rather not be around to be part of it. All we can humanly do is look after each other to the best of our ability.


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My main point wasnt really about releasing critically ill people it was more about the ethics of lifting restrictions so the virus would take it's natural (herd) course to help the ecconomy and minimise poverty verses protecting the vulnerable in society.
		
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Is there not a 3rd choice if the lockdown is perceived by some to be lifted early, a personal decision to self-isolate? Why can't an at risk individual decide to moderate their lifestyle by personal choice whilst waiting on a vaccine to come through?

Is this not the best of a bad choice for all concerned?


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## Foxholer (Apr 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My main point wasnt really about releasing critically ill people it was more about the ethics of lifting restrictions so the virus would take it's natural (herd) course to help the ecconomy and minimise poverty verses protecting the vulnerable in society...
		
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And there was nothing about that in your post that I replied to!

Btw. I'd agree with you re the 'herd immunity' approach (alone) being wrong!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

drdel said:



			Ethics are laudable and morally right but often not affordable in the real. world
		
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You are referring to a guide for the last resort. These decisions have to be made in times where the casualties outnumber the resources, hopefully we will not reach that critical point. If we use herd mentality we will without doubt.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Is there not a 3rd choice if the lockdown is perceived by some to be lifted early, a personal decision to self-isolate? Why can't an at risk individual decide to moderate their lifestyle by personal choice whilst waiting on a vaccine to come through?

Is this not the best of a bad choice for all concerned?
		
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IMO lifting restrictions early will have unpredictable results that err on the side of a poor outcome.  I think I read of the possibility/probability of an 80% infection rate.  It would probably be better to wait for infection rates to fall considerably then selectively ease restrictions through selected groups but not voluntarily.


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## Fish (Apr 13, 2020)

IainP said:



			As of today Belgium are pretty much even with Italy.
Still the BBC don't seem to be reporting on this unless I keep missing it. Some insights may be informative.
		
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I’ve seen some videos of unrest in Belgium, not sure how kosha, but there does seem to be a gagging of information coming out of there. 

I’ve seen police cars patrolling the streets being attacked by migrants, to such a degree that the police have to abandon their vehicles!  

Can’t verify it’s authenticity, but looked recent.


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## Mudball (Apr 13, 2020)

I am assuming Clever & Entitled Gove paid for his daughter’s test.. hopefully no abuse of power to get her to jump the queue 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...test-daughter-with-covid-19-symptoms-11972552


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am assuming Clever & Entitled Gove paid for his daughter’s test.. *hopefully no abuse of power to get her to jump the queue*

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...test-daughter-with-covid-19-symptoms-11972552

Click to expand...

If you'd read the link you posted you'd have seen this;  *it transpired that England's chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty, had advised that Mr Gove’s daughter should be tested for the virus.*

Given that we see enough complaints posted on this thread about not following the advice from the scientists, are we seriously going to suggest an abuse of power when their advice is followed?


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 13, 2020)

It's easy to argue the why's or wherefore's on this, but when it lands next door or to someone close the actual severity of the situation often strokes home.

My sympathies and thoughts go to those who have lost, or may lose someone in this horrible time.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			It's my belief that the long term effect of lockdown can be far more fatal in the long run than that of the virus itself.
		
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That will never be known- because we haven't had the scenario where there was no lockdown, and thus no unchecked rampaging of this virus through our country.
The result of *that* is what your "long term effect of lockdown...etc has to be compared with. And, as I say, that will never be possible to do.


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## Wolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Just seen some posts people are sending to an old school friend on Facebook today and it made me sit down and take moment of reflection for her. Haven't seen her since we left school but on 30th March she lost her mum, just as her family were coming to terms with the loss her dad fell ill as well and subsequently passed away 2 days ago. Due to lockdown she hadn't been able to see either of them before they died and suddenly she has to plan a funeral for both her parents because of this virus.

Absolutely brutal situation to be in and brings home the reality we're all in but my heart really feels for her losing both parents in 2 weeks to this.


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## Mudball (Apr 13, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you'd read the link you posted you'd have seen this;  *it transpired that England's chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty, had advised that Mr Gove’s daughter should be tested for the virus.*

Given that we see enough complaints posted on this thread about not following the advice from the scientists, are we seriously going to suggest an abuse of power when their advice is followed?
		
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I thought Mr Gove was allergic to Expert advice...


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## Mudball (Apr 13, 2020)

Two death on our road.. both not related to C19 and both in their 80s.  Extremely sad and made worse by the fact that no one can go and knock on their door and give them a big hug... Sad times indeed


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just seen some posts people are sending to an old school friend on Facebook today and it made me sit down and take moment of reflection for her. Haven't seen her since we left school but on 30th March she lost her mum, just as her family were coming to terms with the loss her dad fell ill as well and subsequently passed away 2 days ago. Due to lockdown she hadn't been able to see either of them before they died and suddenly she has to plan a funeral for both her parents because of this virus.

Absolutely brutal situation to be in and brings home the reality we're all in but my heart really feels for her losing both parents in 2 weeks to this.
		
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God, that is awful, just bloody awful. ....this bastard virus.
" All things bright and beautiful, my arse"


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## Wolf (Apr 13, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			God, that is awful, just bloody awful. ....this bastard virus.
" All things bright and beautiful, my arse"
		
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Absolutely agree. I'm not a sentimental person and am very matter of fact about what's coming to us all eventually. But seeing that and remembering what a nice kid she was and no doubt is now a lovely lady, plus factoring how I'd feel in that situation it really got to me. Was sat there for quite a while today thinking of her and how she's coping. I can't even begin to imagine what she's feeling.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I thought Mr Gove was allergic to Expert advice...
		
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When you're in a hole, stop digging.  Or maybe dig deep enough that you lose internet connection.


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## Foxholer (Apr 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			Ethics are laudable and morally right but often not affordable in the real. world
		
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While you may be right at a personal level - and hopefully only occasionally - they are absolutely essential at a 'society' level. War or reaction to oppression, associated with immoral activities in the first place (but often forced on one side) would be the only possible exceptions.

Can you give 'normal' examples to support your assertion?


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## Slab (Apr 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			What kind of govt do you normally have, is it zero tolerance strict?
		
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No I wouldn't say it was strick in the sense I think you mean and some people have been fined for breaking curfew, so society isn't fully compliant here either
We do have the 'advantage' that every year in cyclone season all businesses will be closed and the public will be confined to home whenever a big storm is passing. So while this is usually just a day or two at a time it does mean the concept of being on a type of lock-down (albeit short-term) is quite normal, maybe that helps a bit


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## patricks148 (Apr 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			There were quite a number of families joining with other neighbouring families at the outset for the lockdown so they could cover each others kids as adults went to work and young ones had playmates etc. The BBQs could be from that scenario, i.e. they are one big group for purposes of isolating.
Or they could be eejits.

The golfers should be chased. Bught is big but it should be a safe exercise space for all.
		
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unfort the latter


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 14, 2020)

Well that was interesting. Relatively large spike compared to recent days. Came in at 6.30 this morning to four new admissions (23 patients) and 4 deaths. Not sure at a local level if this is a blip from the lack of admissions/deaths over the weekend or perhaps a sign the expected surge is about to beging


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## bobmac (Apr 14, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Desperate measures - had to get David to cut my hair today...me "it usually grows into a sort of pointy bit at the back"..."you should have mentioned you wanted to keep the pointy bit"!!

It's only the back but actually looks ok 

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Did he get carried away, can't wait to see Daisy


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you'd read the link you posted you'd have seen this;  *it transpired that England's chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty, had advised that Mr Gove’s daughter should be tested for the virus.*

Given that we see enough complaints posted on this thread about not following the advice from the scientists, are we seriously going to suggest an abuse of power when their advice is followed?
		
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You’re correct re the bit in bold, however, going on the Downing Street response yesterday, that expert advice was given so as to get Gove back to work and save him from self isolating, it doesn’t appear to be for primarily health reasons for his daughter.

Therefore, surely it is correct to ask what the “expert” advice was used for in this context? Are experts going to continue to allow families of certain people in certain positions to be tested to keep that person in the workplace.



HomerJSimpson said:



			Well that was interesting. Relatively large spike compared to recent days. Came in at 6.30 this morning to four new admissions (23 patients) and 4 deaths. Not sure at a local level if this is a blip from the lack of admissions/deaths over the weekend or perhaps a sign the expected surge is about to beging
		
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Can I respectfully request you stop broadcasting updates for the hospital were you work. Surely it is not your job to release this information in to the public domain.
I very much respect the vital role you are doing at this time, but taking time out after just being at work for 2 hours to release this is wrong imo.
I would suggest you are risking your job by doing it.
You never know if people on here have friends or family being admitted in to the hospital and may now be in a state of panic.


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re correct re the bit in bold, however, going on the Downing Street response yesterday, that expert advice was given so as to get Gove back to work and save him from self isolating, it doesn’t appear to be for primarily health reasons for his daughter.

Therefore, surely it is correct to ask what the “expert” advice was used for in this context? Are experts going to continue to allow families of certain people in certain positions to be tested to keep that person in the workplace.



Can I respectfully request you stop broadcasting updates for the hospital were you work. Surely it is not your job to release this information in to the public domain.
I very much respect the vital role you are doing at this time, but taking time out after just being at work for 2 hours to release this is wrong imo.
I would suggest you are risking your job by doing it.
You never know if people on here have friends or family being admitted in to the hospital and may now be in a state of panic.
		
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He's only risking his job if he gives personal details of said people.   homer wasn't just spouting out info.  he was using it to build a point that they've had a serge of cases.  People are getting a little sensitive


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			He's only risking his job if he gives personal details of said people.   homer wasn't just spouting out info.  he was using it to build a point that they've had a serge of cases.  People are getting a little sensitive
		
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I disagree about what he’s releasing, it’s not his choice and I’d suggest the hospital has someone whose job it actually is to release that information, also do you not think we have people on here who are served by the hospital he works at? 

Maybe he needs to be a bit more aware and sensitive with the information he is privvy to.


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I disagree about what he’s releasing, it’s not his choice and I’d suggest the hospital has someone whose job it actually is to release that information, also do you not think we have people on here who are served by the hospital he works at?

Maybe he needs to be a bit more aware and sensitive with the information he is privvy to.
		
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that would be no different to me saying I attended an rtc last night cut two people out and one died.  I'm just stating a fact.  no personal info being given out so no harm.  maybe to some its offensive but you can't please everyone.   personally homers post is fine.  just stating some facts. I'm a big boy.  I can take it


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## DRW (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			He's only risking his job if he gives personal details of said people.   homer wasn't just spouting out info.  he was using it to build a point that they've had a serge of cases.  People are getting a little sensitive
		
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Whilst I like to read the updates personally, from an interest factor.

I don't think it will be seen like that at all, he is disclosing confidential information about the Hospital, that should be not disclosed(you are confusing that with the disclosure of data protection/confidential personal patient information).

Either disclosure could lead to action by the employer IMHO, especially as it isn't anything to do with protecting the staff(such as PPE issues for example, which could be defendable).

PS Your example is not linkable to a personal or place, Homers is. Big difference. But even at that level you need to be careful IMHO.

Hope that helps.


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			Whilst I like to read the updates personally, from an interest factor.

I don't think it will be seen like that at all, he is disclosing confidential information about the Hospital, that should be not disclosed(you are confusing that with the disclosure of data protection/confidential personal patient information).

Either disclosure could lead to action by the employer IMHO, especially as it isn't anything to do with protecting the staff(such as PPE issues for example, which could be defendable).

PS Your example is not linkable to a personal or place, Homers is. Big difference. But even at that level you need to be careful IMHO.

Hope that helps.
		
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i can see your point and I'm not savy to information that is and isn't allowed to be disclosed outside of personal data. I just find it ironic that in about 10 minutes the info that homer has posted could be in the local herald. 
i also don't know where homer works.  maybe he has mentioned before. this is the reason I don't state what station I work at


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			that would be no different to me saying I attended an rtc last night cut two people out and one died.  I'm just stating a fact.  no personal info being given out so no harm.  maybe to some its offensive but you can't please everyone.   personally homers post is fine.  just stating some facts. I'm a big boy.  I can take it
		
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Of course it’s different, using your scenario: You attended a house fire, return to the station and one of the support staff posts on a Public forum how many have died etc you believe that’s ok? It’s not down to them or you to decide what information needs to be in the public domain, it’s why we have “Press Officers” so this information can be controlled.

I’ve seen the damage first hand from Afghan and Iraq when people have “shared” information on deaths they see as harmless. 

Fact is, names or not he is breaking confidentiality giving numbers out.


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## DRW (Apr 14, 2020)

Some countries now opening restrictions and sounds like the Japanese island is now experiencing a second wave, must follow for the countries.

But the relaxation has to happen, otherwise supply chains are going to start failing soon, (from crops, picking, packaging, supply of what people call essential items like food/clothing but also the much bigger picture such as roof tiles, central heating pumps that keep us dry and warm etc), all the stuff attached to living in particular. See some processing centres have closed down due to the virus being rampant within the workforces and must mean in the food chains worryingly(such has frozen foods in particular, due the virus being able to survive iirc)

The supply chains breaking down are as 'scary or maybe more scarier' than the virus ripping though, as once they start to fail, that would lead to civil unrest and starvation across the world. 

I wake up the morning and then remember I am in a disaster movie but seeing it pan out in slow motion as such.

As such the show must go on due to the big picture.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			i can see your point and I'm not savy to information that is and isn't allowed to be disclosed outside of personal data. I just find it ironic that in about 10 minutes the info that homer has posted could be in the local herald.
i also don't know where homer works.  maybe he has mentioned before. this is the reason I don't state what station I work at
		
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Unfortunately, a lot on here are fully aware of were he works, how long for, problems he’s had etc etc.

I fully admire what he’s doing, but he needs to think about what he is posting.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 14, 2020)

Some people need to get a grip of themselves.


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Fact is, names or not he is breaking confidentiality giving numbers out.
		
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is he? genuine question as I know zero about NHS confidentiality.  he isn't breaching data protection so what confidential agreement did homer have to sign to prevent him giving out broad numbers?  perhaps this is one for homer to comment on as i dont know personally


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

My lad spoke to his postie mate over the weekend... Seems their current parcel volumes are exceeding those they experience in the run up to Xmas... Not really helpful when they are also, at the same time, having to deal with issues around distancing in the sorting rooms... Think the first person that whinges, to him, for a slow service will get a sharp response...


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			My lad spoke to his postie mate over the weekend... Seems their current parcel volumes are exceeding those they experience in the run up to Xmas... Not really helpful when they are also, at the same time, having to deal with issues around distancing in the sorting rooms... Think the first person that whinges, to him, for a slow service will get a sharp response...
		
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my golf partner works for fedex/TNT.   he said measures are very strict and they are all very greatful for the extra work to keep them in a job.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			My lad spoke to his postie mate over the weekend... Seems their current parcel volumes are exceeding those they experience in the run up to Xmas... Not really helpful when they are also, at the same time, having to deal with issues around distancing in the sorting rooms... Think the first person that whinges, to him, for a slow service will get a sharp response...
		
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id hope people are understanding, I know round here everyone is grateful to the post man still bringing their stuff so they can do a few more things

I must say this knock and leave parcel on door step situation as left hermes ahead of the curve... been doing that about 5 years


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re correct re the bit in bold, however, going on the Downing Street response yesterday, that expert advice was given so as to get Gove back to work and save him from self isolating, it doesn’t appear to be for primarily health reasons for his daughter.

Therefore, surely it is correct to ask what the “expert” advice was used for in this context? Are experts going to continue to allow families of certain people in certain positions to be tested to keep that person in the workplace.
		
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And if the posted link says that then fine mate, but to post a link that doesn't give that information but instead gives a perfectly reasonable explanation for the test, and then follows it up with a snide little dig just comes across as yet more political point scoring at a time when we really, really don't need it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And if the posted link says that then fine mate, but to post a link that doesn't give that information but instead gives a perfectly reasonable explanation for the test, and then follows it up with a snide little dig just comes across as yet more political point scoring at a time when we really, really don't need it.
		
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I agree, that’s why I mentioned the clarification from No 10 yesterday.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			id hope people are understanding, I know round here everyone is grateful to the post man still bringing their stuff so they can do a few more things

I must say this knock and leave parcel on door step situation as left hermes ahead of the curve... been doing that about 5 years
		
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The issues are not when he's out on his round... But as I noted, in my post, within the sorting office where distancing measures and super high volumes are creating a bottleneck and therefore delays in delivery...


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## Jacko_G (Apr 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			id hope people are understanding, I know round here everyone is grateful to the post man still bringing their stuff so they can do a few more things

I must say this knock and leave parcel on door step situation as left hermes ahead of the curve... been doing that about 5 years
		
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Don't mention that company! 🤫


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			The issues are not when he's out on his round... But as I noted, in my post, within the sorting office where distancing measures and super high volumes are creating a bottleneck and therefore delays in delivery...
		
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I appreicate this.. my dad litterally retired last week from the sorting office local to me.. as I said in my post I nobody round this way seem to be complaining about the time for deliveries to arrive for post their grateful to the post service for still being out.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I appreicate this.. my dad litterally retired last week from the sorting office local to me.. as I said in my post I nobody round this way seem to be complaining about the time for deliveries to arrive for post their grateful to the post service for still being out.
		
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Apologies, I thought I had clicked on hovis's post to respond to... Need to put my specs 👓 on 😞...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Apologies, I thought I had clicked on hovis's post to respond to... Need to put my specs 👓 on 😞...
		
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Lol no worries , just seen his post . Makes sense now


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 14, 2020)

From the New York Post 

An evangelical pastor was vowing to keep preaching “unless I’m in jail or the hospital.”

In his last known in-person service on March 22, Bishop Gerald O. Glenn got his congregation at Richmond’s New Deliverance Evangelistic Church to stand to prove how many were there despite warnings against gatherings of more than 10 people.   “I firmly believe that God is larger than this dreaded virus. You can quote me on that,” he said, repeating it a second time to claps, saying that “people are healed” in his church.

And then he died of it.    Not quite sure what to say about this ....


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## Jacko_G (Apr 14, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			From the New York Post

An evangelical pastor was vowing to keep preaching “unless I’m in jail or the hospital.”

In his last known in-person service on March 22, Bishop Gerald O. Glenn got his congregation at Richmond’s New Deliverance Evangelistic Church to stand to prove how many were there despite warnings against gatherings of more than 10 people.   “I firmly believe that God is larger than this dreaded virus. You can quote me on that,” he said, repeating it a second time to claps, saying that “people are healed” in his church.

And then he died of it.    Not quite sure what to say about this ....
		
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The Lord moves in mysterious ways?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 14, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			The Lord moves in mysterious ways?
		
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Not really, sounds quite direct to me ... look up Ricky Gervias and acts of god sketch but not for the easily offended!!


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## Jacko_G (Apr 14, 2020)

Eh?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			From the New York Post

An evangelical pastor was vowing to keep preaching “unless I’m in jail or the hospital.”

In his last known in-person service on March 22, Bishop Gerald O. Glenn got his congregation at Richmond’s New Deliverance Evangelistic Church to stand to prove how many were there despite warnings against gatherings of more than 10 people.   “I firmly believe that God is larger than this dreaded virus. You can quote me on that,” he said, repeating it a second time to claps, saying that “people are healed” in his church.

And then he died of it.    Not quite sure what to say about this ....
		
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From where I stand in the scheme of beliefs, this is very sad - and I'm feeling he was misguided about what his God was actually capable of and what his God wasn't.  Maybe he expected himself and his congregation to suddenly - out of nowhere - find themselves wearing full NBC suits...Well I don't know about him, but mine doesn't work that way.

BTW. If you don't like, or if you disagree, with what I have posted then you can just ignore my post and instead respond to what @PS posted.  I won't be upset - but please don't let this degenerate into slagging off religion - those of faith are not all the same, and do not all believe the same.


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## hovis (Apr 14, 2020)

the media are now accusing the government of under reporting the figures by 10 to 15% as their numbers are not including deaths outside of hospitals. am I missing something? evey day I watch the government briefing and he says "now onto the next slide deaths *inside* our hospitals are". unless I am looking at this incorrectly the media are out of order on this one. this information for me has been clear from tee start.  I've definitely heard the government say on a few occasions that the figures don't include deaths outside of hospitals!!


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## Kellfire (Apr 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From where I stand in the scheme of beliefs, this is very sad - and I'm feeling he was misguided about what his God was actually capable of and what his God wasn't.  Maybe he expected himself and his congregation to suddenly - out of nowhere - find themselves wearing full NBC suits...Well I don't know about him, but mine doesn't work that way.

BTW. If you don't like, or if you disagree, with what I have posted then you can just ignore my post and instead respond to what @PS posted.  I won't be upset - but please don't let this degenerate into slagging off religion - those of faith are not all the same, and do not all believe the same.
		
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His god is capable of anything - goes with the territory of omnipotence. But if his god does exist he chose to let him die for trying to do his work. Lovely.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			His god is capable of anything - goes with the territory of omnipotence. But if his god does exist he chose to let him die for trying to do his work. Lovely.
		
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If that is what he believes - and maybe it is.  As it happens mine isn't capable of everything...not directly anyway in most instances and not at all in some - but there you go.  That's just how beliefs and faith can differ.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			the media are now accusing the government of under reporting the figures by 10 to 15% as their numbers are not including deaths outside of hospitals. am I missing something? evey day I watch the government briefing and he says "now onto the next slide deaths *inside* our hospitals are". unless I am looking at this incorrectly the media are out of order on this one. this information for me has been clear from tee start.  I've definitely heard the government say on a few occasions that the figures don't include deaths outside of hospitals!!
		
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I can understand why the deaths in such as care homes are not included in figures that are being published and used in the briefings as a measure to convey the scale and spread of the disease in the open public environment.  Such as care homes and prisons are closed environments and so infections and deaths in each is specific and contained within any single environment and so not representative of spread in the wider population.  Including figures from such closed environments would I think 'corrupt' the figures *when they are used as they are.*

That said I think the numbers should be provided at the same time as those for the general (open) public - but separated out from the total.

Apparently CQC have to be advised of any and every death in a care home asap after it occurs and so the figures should be easily compiled and made available.


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## BrianM (Apr 14, 2020)

Getting Furloughed today for 3 weeks to begin with 😔


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can understand why the deaths in such as care homes are not included in figures that are being published and used in the briefings as a measure to convey the scale and spread of the disease in the open public environment.  Such as care homes and prisons are closed environments and so infections and deaths in each is specific and contained within any single environment and so not representative of spread in the wider population.  Including figures from such closed environments would I think 'corrupt' the figures *when they are used as they are.*

That said I think the numbers should be provided at the same time as those for the general (open) public - but separated out from the total.

Apparently CQC have to be advised of any and every death in a care home asap after it occurs and so the figures should be easily compiled and made available.
		
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Not sure about the UK but in Spain and Italy, if a diagnosis hasn't been made pre-death they're not risking autopsies.


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## chrisd (Apr 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I can understand why the deaths in such as care homes are not included in figures that are being published and used in the briefings as a measure to convey the scale and spread of the disease in the open public environment.  Such as care homes and prisons are closed environments and so infections and deaths in each is specific and contained within any single environment and so not representative of spread in the wider population.  Including figures from such closed environments would I think 'corrupt' the figures *when they are used as they are.*

That said I think the numbers should be provided at the same time as those for the general (open) public - but separated out from the total.

Apparently CQC have to be advised of any and every death in a care home asap after it occurs and so the figures should be easily compiled and made available.
		
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The ONS do publish the figures and are available to everyone


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If that is what he believes - and maybe it is.  As it happens mine isn't capable of everything...not directly anyway in most instances and not at all in some - but there you go.  That's just how beliefs and faith can differ.
		
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Look, you can't really have a God who can or cannot, or will or will not behave in accordance with *your* values or beliefs. That's just crazy mixed up thinking.
And, just a mite convenient, of course.
God is either omnipotent, the creator of everything, -or there isn't a God.
You are having your cake , and eating it.


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## woofers (Apr 14, 2020)

Does anyone have the current utilisation of the pop up Nightingale Hospitals ? Are they making a difference yet ?

I'm a bit irritated that the government ministers are getting the blame for virtually everything especially those things outwith their direct control.

What about the accountability of the people managing the NHS Trusts ?  Was it the Governments duty to equip Care Homes with PPE ? What about the Care Home owners responsibility ?

There is a lot of analysis and criticism being done with the benefit of hindsight, but as a former employee in the airport sector, I like to offer 2 real life analogies ;

Should an airport spend a lot of money stockpiling snow clearing equipment which will sit idle for most of time, not knowing *if* and *when* it may be used, at the expense of other capital equipment and facilities ? I can tell you the airlines and passengers want the other facilities now, but will complain like crazy if the snow falls and can't be cleared. 

The pilot that landed the aircraft in the Hudson River was criticised after the event when the 'experts data' showed that he could have returned the aircraft to an airport within albeit fine margins. It was only when the 'experts' in the aftermath inquiry / investigation mocked up the situation in a simulator was it revealed that making decisions in real time is a whole lot different to carrying out perfected analysis routines. None of the pilots in the simulated real time scenario could get the aircraft back to an airport. The pilot, Chesley Sullenberger saved many lives, but there were people out there, 'experts' after the event, calling for his head.

Let's hope we don't get into a similar situation here, I don't believe anyone in government or authority isn't doing their best to sort this out, and people with choices to make are doing what they think is right, right now.


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## huds1475 (Apr 14, 2020)

woofers said:



			Does anyone have the current utilisation of the pop up Nightingale Hospitals ? Are they making a difference yet ?

I'm a bit irritated that the government ministers are getting the blame for virtually everything especially those things outwith their direct control.

What about the accountability of the people managing the NHS Trusts ?  Was it the Governments duty to equip Care Homes with PPE ? What about the Care Home owners responsibility ?

There is a lot of analysis and criticism being done with the benefit of hindsight, but as a former employee in the airport sector, I like to offer 2 real life analogies ;

Should an airport spend a lot of money stockpiling snow clearing equipment which will sit idle for most of time, not knowing *if* and *when* it may be used, at the expense of other capital equipment and facilities ? I can tell you the airlines and passengers want the other facilities now, but will complain like crazy if the snow falls and can't be cleared.

The pilot that landed the aircraft in the Hudson River was criticised after the event when the 'experts data' showed that he could have returned the aircraft to an airport within albeit fine margins. It was only when the 'experts' in the aftermath inquiry / investigation mocked up the situation in a simulator was it revealed that making decisions in real time is a whole lot different to carrying out perfected analysis routines. None of the pilots in the simulated real time scenario could get the aircraft back to an airport. The pilot, Chesley Sullenberger saved many lives, but there were people out there, 'experts' after the event, calling for his head.

Let's hope we don't get into a similar situation here, I don't believe anyone in government or authority isn't doing their best to sort this out, and people with choices to make are doing what they think is right, right now.
		
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Agree ref the hindsight high-horse folks.

Not helping


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## bobmac (Apr 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As it happens *mine isn't capable of everything*...not directly anyway in most instances and not at all in some - but there you go.  That's just how beliefs and faith can differ.
		
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Page 1
Verse 1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


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## woofers (Apr 14, 2020)

Maybe the faith discussion could have its own thread ?


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## Wolf (Apr 14, 2020)

woofers said:



			Maybe the faith discussion could have its own thread ?
		
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I don't think it should have a thread at all because there are to many people that jump on it to degrade it and belittle people like SILH who has his faith. As is evident in the thread last week that was created that got locked after what 2 pages at most.

People use others faith on here and social media in general to belittle them or take potshots instead of understanding some people merely have beliefs that don't match their own.

Much better we get this back on track and let those that have faith take solace in that in their own way and those that don't simply don't get a place to point score.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Look, you can't really have a God who can or cannot, or will or will not behave in accordance with *your* values or beliefs. That's just crazy mixed up thinking.
And, just a mite convenient, of course.
God is either omnipotent, the creator of everything, -or there isn't a God.
You are having your cake , and eating it.
		
Click to expand...

Crikey, even I, as someone without faith, can see all the flaws in that one.

Let's not turn the thread into a faith bashing exercise. There's enough of that in the "normal world". How about we stick to the subject of the virus?


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## Imurg (Apr 14, 2020)

As Fragger said..every thread that gets religious goes downhill very fast...always has on here....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

woofers said:



			Does anyone have the current utilisation of the pop up Nightingale Hospitals ? Are they making a difference yet ?

I'm a bit irritated that the government ministers are getting the blame for virtually everything especially those things outwith their direct control.

What about the accountability of the people managing the NHS Trusts ?  Was it the Governments duty to equip Care Homes with PPE ? What about the Care Home owners responsibility ?

There is a lot of analysis and criticism being done with the benefit of hindsight, but as a former employee in the airport sector, I like to offer 2 real life analogies ;

Should an airport spend a lot of money stockpiling snow clearing equipment which will sit idle for most of time, not knowing *if* and *when* it may be used, at the expense of other capital equipment and facilities ? I can tell you the airlines and passengers want the other facilities now, but will complain like crazy if the snow falls and can't be cleared.

The pilot that landed the aircraft in the Hudson River was criticised after the event when the 'experts data' showed that he could have returned the aircraft to an airport within albeit fine margins. It was only when the 'experts' in the aftermath inquiry / investigation mocked up the situation in a simulator was it revealed that making decisions in real time is a whole lot different to carrying out perfected analysis routines. None of the pilots in the simulated real time scenario could get the aircraft back to an airport. The pilot, Chesley Sullenberger saved many lives, but there were people out there, 'experts' after the event, calling for his head.

Let's hope we don't get into a similar situation here, I don't believe anyone in government or authority isn't doing their best to sort this out, and people with choices to make are doing what they think is right, right now.
		
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I agree now isn’t the time to get political just for the sake of it, but probably like Airports, not all Care Homes fit one scenario, some are private and some are public owned, but isn’t it the duty of any Government to look after ALL its citizens in these unprecedented times.

Surely a Government could state all Care Home workers must have the correct PPE and then help with the financing like they have in other areas.

Care homes house some of our most vulnerable and they need protecting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Look, you can't really have a God who can or cannot, or will or will not behave in accordance with *your* values or beliefs. That's just crazy mixed up thinking.
And, just a mite convenient, of course.
God is either omnipotent, the creator of everything, -or there isn't a God.
You are having your cake , and eating it.
		
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Well that assumes that there is, and always has been, a single understanding of what a God (of my understanding) is capable of, and a common understanding of what my God is capable of. And that simply isn't the case.  It's a common argument made by those who don't believe about what those who do believe should believe in...

As I mentioned.  Not all faiths and Christian denominations believe the same about their God; and what their God is responsible for and capable of.

And if it is as 'convenient' as you suggest - then so be it.   I'll deal with that convenience.

But let's not argue about it.  For most on here what I might have faith in is neither here nor there.  It is indeed a difficult thing to deal with - when bad things happen to good people.  But there we are.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Page 1
Verse 1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


Click to expand...

I'll repeat.  In my belief mine isn't capable of doing everything.  And that's that.  Doesn't affect non-believers as they don't believe in anything in the Bible - especially page 1 verse 1 - so no big deal what I might believe or have faith in.  Not a lot of point, I suggest, in me being told to believe something by someone who doesn't believe it 

But enough.


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree now isn’t the time to get political just for the sake of it, but probably like Airports, not all Care Homes fit one scenario, some are private and some are public owned, but isn’t it the duty of any Government to look after ALL its citizens in these unprecedented times.

Surely a Government could state all Care Home workers must have the correct PPE and then help with the financing like they have in other areas.

Care homes house some of our most vulnerable and they need protecting.
		
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The govt don't have to say all Care home workers must have PPE. Its already covered from a Duty of Care perspective. Equally, for those care home owners that are hard of hearing, it could be mandated. 

Thinking about it, I do wonder how many tight fisted care home owners are just chancing their arm and deliberately ignoring their Duty of Care.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The govt don't have to say all Care home workers must have PPE. Its already covered from a Duty of Care perspective. Equally, for those care home owners that are hard of hearing, it could be mandated.

Thinking about it, I do wonder how many tight fisted care home owners are just chancing their arm and deliberately ignoring their Duty of Care.
		
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Apologies, you explained it better than me by using the word mandated.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that assumes that there is, and always has been, a single understanding of what a God (of my understanding) is capable of, and a common understanding of what my God is capable of. And that simply isn't the case.  It's a common argument made by those who don't believe about what those who do believe should believe in...

As I mentioned.  Not all faiths and Christian denominations believe the same about their God; and what their God is responsible for and capable of.

And if it is as 'convenient' as you suggest - then so be it.   I'll deal with that convenience.

But let's not argue about it.  For most on here what I might have faith in is neither here nor there.  It is indeed a difficult thing to deal with - when bad things happen to good people.  But there we are.
		
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That’s fair enough, and we should accept other people’s beliefs ... bit of tolerance is required from all sides of the debate.

Back on topic, I think the criticism is a little early, get this over and done and then it’s full review and how are we going to deal with future episodes... things like stopping international travel ASAP, having capability to turn on mass production of essential basic equipment etc .. all of these topics should be discussed later.
Main priority is dealing and enforcing lock downs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

woofers said:



			Does anyone have the current utilisation of the pop up Nightingale Hospitals ? Are they making a difference yet ?

I'm a bit irritated that the government ministers are getting the blame for virtually everything especially those things outwith their direct control.

What about the accountability of the people managing the NHS Trusts ?  Was it the Governments duty to equip Care Homes with PPE ? What about the Care Home owners responsibility ?

There is a lot of analysis and criticism being done with the benefit of hindsight, but as a former employee in the airport sector, I like to offer 2 real life analogies ;

Should an airport spend a lot of money stockpiling snow clearing equipment which will sit idle for most of time, not knowing *if* and *when* it may be used, at the expense of other capital equipment and facilities ? I can tell you the airlines and passengers want the other facilities now, but will complain like crazy if the snow falls and can't be cleared.

The pilot that landed the aircraft in the Hudson River was criticised after the event when the 'experts data' showed that he could have returned the aircraft to an airport within albeit fine margins. It was only when the 'experts' in the aftermath inquiry / investigation mocked up the situation in a simulator was it revealed that making decisions in real time is a whole lot different to carrying out perfected analysis routines. None of the pilots in the simulated real time scenario could get the aircraft back to an airport. The pilot, Chesley Sullenberger saved many lives, but there were people out there, 'experts' after the event, calling for his head.

Let's hope we don't get into a similar situation here, I don't believe anyone in government or authority isn't doing their best to sort this out, and people with choices to make are doing what they think is right, right now.
		
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Re The Nightingale.  Our close friend - the very senior ICU Nurse - was doing a shift on ICU in The Nightingale on Friday, leading a team of four looking after six patients in intensive care.  Her team comprised a dentist, a critical care midwife, and a biomechanical engineer.  A somewhat curious and rather worrying mix we thought at first.  But on reflection it's a good use of the complementary skillsets that were available, and most probably able to provide the level of care required.  I suspect this sort of team mix will be pretty common.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 14, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Crikey, even I, as someone without faith, can see all the flaws in that one.

Let's not turn the thread into a faith bashing exercise. There's enough of that in the "normal world". How about we stick to the subject of the virus?
		
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That's all well and good, and I'd go along with that, no problem. But SIiLH is making statements about his religion on not a few occasions, and most of them unsolicited. He is promoting his beliefs, yet when they are challenged folks jump on the challenge as if it is an unwarranted attack on religion.
I have not seen many posts started out of the blue attacking SILH , or anyone else, about his faith. They almost all have been responses to him promoting his beliefs in threads, like this, that are not primarily to do with religion.
I'll keep my religious beliefs off this forum, if SILH does likewise.
Is that fair?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's all well and good, and I'd go along with that, no problem. But SIiLH is making statements about his religion on not a few occasions, and most of them unsolicited. He is promoting his beliefs, yet when they are challenged folks jump on the challenge as if it is an unwarranted attack on religion.
I have not seen many posts started out of the blue attacking SILH , or anyone else, about his faith. They almost all have been responses to him promoting his beliefs in threads, like this, that are not primarily to do with religion.
I'll keep my religious beliefs off this forum, if SILH does likewise.
Is that fair?
		
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If SILH’s beliefs help him cope with crisis and bring him comfort then why shouldn’t he mention it? 
Why should any of us go “tit for tat” with him.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Not when they are used to demonise and discriminate against others, as religion so frequently is.
		
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You know as well as I do that isn’t the religion that is the interpretation... it’s like a dog, none are dangerous just their owners.

I remember being told a good French phrase .. it was something about rights and how we all entitled to have them, but they should not infringe on others.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If SILH’s beliefs help him cope with crisis and bring him comfort then why shouldn’t he mention it?
Why should any of us go “tit for tat” with him.
		
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It's OK - I'm not going to be doing any more here on this aspect of how I cope and try and rationalise the situation.  Your words are appreciated.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

hovis said:



			the media are now accusing the government of under reporting the figures by 10 to 15% as their numbers are not including deaths outside of hospitals. am I missing something? evey day I watch the government briefing and he says "now onto the next slide deaths *inside* our hospitals are". unless I am looking at this incorrectly the media are out of order on this one. this information for me has been clear from tee start.  I've definitely heard the government say on a few occasions that the figures don't include deaths outside of hospitals!!
		
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Apparently there's a world standard in how deaths are reported in the current circumstances 😕😞... And, by reporting deaths outside of a hospital the UK would be failing to meet it...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Apparently there's a world standard in how deaths are reported in the current circumstances 😕😞... And, by reporting deaths outside of a hospital the UK would be failing to meet it...
		
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Latest information upto 03rd April just released by ONS covering all deaths, not good reading sadly.

Coronavirus: One in five deaths now linked to virus https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52278825


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

Having decided to stay at home, over the weekend, as we expected an increase of footfall locally... Which, by all accounts didn't materialise... We ventured out this morning... Realised it's not just the playing of golf I've been missing but actually, probably just as much, being outside amongst nature... Even though I've seen it many times before the sheer amount of extra foliage/coverage, on the trees/bushes, was quite noticeable over our last walk out last Thursday...


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## fundy (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If SILH’s beliefs help him cope with crisis and bring him comfort then why shouldn’t he mention it?
Why should any of us go “tit for tat” with him.
		
Click to expand...


yeah no one ever goes tit for tat on here on any other subject do they lol, why you think this will be any different. or even better, why is it ok to do so on other subjects but not this?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Latest information upto 03rd April just released by ONS covering all deaths, not good reading sadly.

Coronavirus: One in five deaths now linked to virus https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52278825

Click to expand...

As you say... Not good reading at all... 

Can't be many that aren't aware of a death down to covid... I've lost two of my extended family members... And, I doubt if I am alone in that regard...


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

*Hallelujah!*

Many of you will have seen the piece on the news several weeks ago about the ice rink in Madrid being used as a morgue. It closed today, no longer required. TBH, I'll take any indication of positive change.


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## USER1999 (Apr 14, 2020)

One thing I have noticed on my walks. The increase in litter. Coke cans, crisp packets, beer bottles, etc. More people are going out walking, and they are littering everywhere they go.

Sad.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 14, 2020)

I spent my last 10 years working with adults with learning difficulties one girl left to work in a private nursing home.
I met her later she said it was awful rubber gloves were rationed to 3 pair a shift, she said it was clearly run to maximise profit.
My mother in law went into a private care home, family visited it seemed ok but unfortunately that was not the case 
My wife was taking her washing home and cleaning her room and bathroom, luckily we only lived a short distance away and my wife visited her mum daily, it is one of her regrets that she let her mum go into the home,just a pity we never had a spare room.
It's no surprise to me care homes are being hit hard.
Nor do I blame the workers they are cut to the bare minimum.
Care homes should not be run for profit.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*Hallelujah!*

Many of you will have seen the piece on the news several weeks ago about the ice rink in Madrid being used as a morgue. It closed today, no longer required. TBH, I'll take any indication of positive change.

Click to expand...

Soon be time to get your skates on Brian


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

fundy said:



			yeah no one ever goes tit for tat on here on any other subject do they lol, why you think this will be any different. or even better, why is it ok to do so on other subjects but not this?
		
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Because it’s a choice, you decide, no one else if you wish to answer a post or not

Stating we won’t post if you don’t is child like, if you don’t want to answer someone then skip it or put them on ignore.

I have no issue with SILH’s religious views and see no reason for him to stop posting them because others do.

The posters I dislike I put on ignore.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			I spent my last 10 years working with adults with learning difficulties one girl left to work in a private nursing home.
I met her later she said it was awful rubber gloves were rationed to 3 pair a shift, she said it was clearly run to maximise profit.
My mother in law went into a private care home, family visited it seemed ok but unfortunately that was not the case
My wife was taking her washing home and cleaning her room and bathroom, luckily we only lived a short distance away and my wife visited her mum daily, it is one of her regrets that she let her mum go into the home,just a pity we never had a spare room.
It's no surprise to me care homes are being hit hard.
Nor do I blame the workers they are cut to the bare minimum.
Care homes should not be run for profit.
		
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Genuine question John, re-wearing gloves, would it be acceptable to thoroughly wash your hands while wearing them, instead of changing them ?


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 14, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Genuine question John, re-wearing gloves, would it be acceptable to thoroughly wash your hands while wearing them, instead of changing them ?
		
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They are disposable gloves, that are worn to protect the wearer, I suppose washing them would be better than nothing.
I worked for a non profit making company gloves at the time were plentiful so never had to deal with the situation you mention.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			They are disposable gloves, that are worn to protect the wearer, I suppose washing them would be better than nothing.
I worked for a non profit making company gloves at the time were plentiful so never had to deal with the situation you mention.
		
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Ah ! I was thinking more the blue surgical type gloves, that some car mechanics use.


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## Ross61 (Apr 14, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			One thing I have noticed on my walks. The increase in litter. Coke cans, crisp packets, beer bottles, etc. More people are going out walking, and they are littering everywhere they go.

Sad.
		
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I have noticed increased litter also. As a dog Walker that picks up my dogs excrement and then disposes of the bag at home, I’ve also noticed an increase in poo lying around and even when picked up the bag is discarded anywhere, including hanging on tree and bush branches. 
 I can only assume it is because the owners that get a dog walker to exercise their dog normally are having to do it themselves.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 14, 2020)

woofers said:



			The pilot that landed the aircraft in the Hudson River was criticised after the event when the 'experts data' showed that he could have returned the aircraft to an airport within albeit fine margins. It was only when the 'experts' in the aftermath inquiry / investigation mocked up the situation in a simulator was it revealed that making decisions in real time is a whole lot different to carrying out perfected analysis routines. None of the pilots in the simulated real time scenario could get the aircraft back to an airport. The pilot, Chesley Sullenberger saved many lives, but there were people out there, 'experts' after the event, calling for his head.
.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies for the slight off track & post clipping, but if anyone wants to kill a couple of hours whilst they're off the film is worth a watch.


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## drdel (Apr 14, 2020)

The ONS death reporting is not verified and there is a belief that many reported as virus related may well have been due to 'other' factors and varying date ranges thus corrupting and frustrating the prediction accuracy of any time based analysis. At every daily press brief this qualifier has been stated so there has not been any attempt the 'bury' these despite the media's desire for a conspiracy.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 14, 2020)

I believe I've read, and I stand to be corrected, that the UK has made Covid 19 a notifiable disease, meaning in effect that everyone who tests positive for the virus goes down as a Covid 19 death, regardless of other circumstances.  Germany I understand considers whether the pre-existing conditions, if any, are the more likely cause of death & if so does not attribute the death to Covid 19.  If correct, that would go some way to explaining the disparity in deaths due to the virus.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Because it’s a choice, you decide, no one else if you wish to answer a post or not

Stating we won’t post if you don’t is child like, if you don’t want to answer someone then skip it or put them on ignore.

I have no issue with SILH’s religious views and see no reason for him to stop posting them because others do.

The posters I dislike I put on ignore.
		
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You have misreported me there. I have no issue with SILH, or anyone else, having a view about anything. I agree with Voltaire on that.
My issue is that when SILH posts about his religious beliefs, anyone coming back to that ,and disagreeing with him ,is attacked- the view isn't attacked, it's the making of the view which is attacked. 
There should be a level playing field:there should be a right of reply, not to say he shouldn't hold such beliefs, (I am not saying that at all), but I and others should be able to put a opposite point of view, or support it, or whatever
Now if that debate or issue is felt too contentious to discuss, then fair enough.
(That's a decision for the Mods.)
Let's not discuss it and that should, in the name of even handedness, mean not raising the subject either..


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## Billysboots (Apr 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe I've read, and I stand to be corrected, that the UK has made Covid 19 a notifiable disease, meaning in effect that everyone who tests positive for the virus goes down as a Covid 19 death, regardless of other circumstances.  Germany I understand considers whether the pre-existing conditions, if any, are the more likely cause of death & if so does not attribute the death to Covid 19.  If correct, that would go some way to explaining the disparity in deaths due to the virus.
		
Click to expand...

That appears to fuel our figures, certainly. But I thought it was a WHO directive, so should every country not adopt the same approach?

There is a world of difference between dying WITH Covid19 and dying BECAUSE of it. At the moment all are included in the UK figures.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 14, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			That appears to fuel our figures, certainly. But I thought it was a WHO directive, so should every country not adopt the same approach?

There is a world of difference between dying WITH Covid19 and dying BECAUSE of it. At the moment all are included in the UK figures.
		
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If it is a WHO directive I haven't seen it in anything I've read, thought it was just a Government directive, but I could be wrong.

Couldn't agree more with your second point and I think the German system as I understand it acknowledges that, ours potentially doesn't.


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You have misreported me there. I have no issue with SILH, or anyone else, having a view about anything. I agree with Voltaire on that.
My issue is that when SILH posts about his religious beliefs, anyone coming back to that ,and disagreeing with him ,is attacked- the view isn't attacked, it's the making of the view which is attacked.
There should be a level playing field:there should be a right of reply, not to say he shouldn't hold such beliefs, (I am not saying that at all), but I and others should be able to put a opposite point of view, or support it, or whatever
Now if that debate or issue is felt too contentious to discuss, then fair enough.
(That's a decision for the Mods.)
Let's not discuss it and that should, in the name of even handedness, mean not raising the subject either..
		
Click to expand...

As I replied on that thread, Maxifli posed the question respectfully and over a beer I'd more than happily debate but not in here. I'm not sensitive about it, I just don't like some of the vitriolic name calling around religious beliefs. We all have an opinion on it, and we should be free to express that opinion free from fear about what might come back at us. When you attack someone's opinion on something, fair game if its done the right way. But when you attack someone's fundamental beliefs you're attacking them to the core.

If someone believes I'm deluded or mentally weak for believing in "sky fairies," that's their choice. And don't think ill of them for having those beliefs. But when its posted up on an open forum in a derisory, belittling way... why would I want to put my head up above the parapet for that? And its not easy to explain a fundamental, core belief in 30 words or less.

Some on here post up, questioning aspects of God's existence and why does or doesn't he... in truth, they're not really interested in the answer, only the next opportunity to make the next point. And some just go straight to the "deluded, sky fairy" insult. Others genuinely want to know why people believe but they are also drowned out... shame really but that's the way it is. Its a subject which, sadly, is best left alone.


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## Crazyface (Apr 14, 2020)

I've been fishing for jobs with the supermarkets. Looks as though I've landed one. I'm working my way though their process now. God it's a faf.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As you say... Not good reading at all...

Can't be many that aren't aware of a death down to covid... I've lost two of my extended family members... And, I doubt if I am alone in that regard...
		
Click to expand...

It's fairly complex (I think) Someone may have a serious condition that has the potential to kill them, that person then gets flu like symptoms and dies.  Would they be tested for Covid, did they have Covid, did the serious condition kill them, maybe it was tipped over the edge by covid, would they have died anyway?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You have misreported me there. I have no issue with SILH, or anyone else, having a view about anything. I agree with Voltaire on that.
My issue is that when SILH posts about his religious beliefs, anyone coming back to that ,and disagreeing with him ,is attacked- the view isn't attacked, it's the making of the view which is attacked.
There should be a level playing field:there should be a right of reply, not to say he shouldn't hold such beliefs, (I am not saying that at all), but I and others should be able to put a opposite point of view, or support it, or whatever
Now if that debate or issue is felt too contentious to discuss, then fair enough.
(That's a decision for the Mods.)
Let's not discuss it and that should, in the name of even handedness, mean not raising the subject either..
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you need to read the post I replied to as you stated “I'll keep my religious beliefs off this forum, if SILH does likewise” is that not directly aimed at him?

Tbf, I have never seen SILH attack anyone about their views, yes he will defend his, but attack someone else, sorry, never seen it.

Let’s be honest, SILH and his religious views/faith/beliefs etc rub some people up the wrong way, no different to some of my views do or others do to me, the difference is none of us are forced to respond or even see them.

We all slip up, but we certainly shouldn’t be advocating certain posters refrain from airing their views because some of us don’t like them, any points of view that are distasteful or crude or disgusting can always be reported for mods to deal with.


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's fairly complex (I think) Someone may have a serious condition that has the potential to kill them, that person then gets flu like symptoms and does.  Would they be tested for Covid, did they have Covid, did the serious condition kill them, maybe it was tipped over the edge by covid, would they have died anyway?
		
Click to expand...

If someone had, say, lung cancer, and only had a few days to live but was killed by a bus... lung caner or the bus? Does most people die of old age, bearing in mind age gets us all eventually, or heart attack/stroke/Covid?


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## pokerjoke (Apr 14, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			I have noticed increased litter also. As a dog Walker that picks up my dogs excrement and then disposes of the bag at home, I’ve also noticed an increase in poo lying around and even when picked up the bag is discarded anywhere, including hanging on tree and bush branches.
I can only assume it is because the owners that get a dog walker to exercise their dog normally are having to do it themselves.
		
Click to expand...

Two reasons 
Not enough bins
And too many dog owners denying its them


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## bobmac (Apr 14, 2020)

Last weekend it was a family from London going fishing in Devon.
Yesterday  it was a family from London going for a spin to the Lake district.
Both were fined and sent home but no mention of how much the fine was.
If they had been fined a £1000, it would be all over every media platform in hours.
Deterent


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If someone had, say, lung cancer, and only had a few days to live but was killed by a bus... lung caner or the bus? Does most people die of old age, bearing in mind age gets us all eventually, or heart attack/stroke/Covid?
		
Click to expand...

I believe if an autopsy is carried out or the person is already known to have a notifiable disease, the notifiable disease is also recorded on death certificate, regardless of actual cause.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe you need to read the post I replied to as you stated “I'll keep my religious beliefs off this forum, if SILH does likewise” is that not directly aimed at him?

Tbf, I have never seen SILH attack anyone about their views, yes he will defend his, but attack someone else, sorry, never seen it.

Let’s be honest, SILH and his religious views/faith/beliefs etc rub some people up the wrong way, no different to some of my views do or others do to me, the difference is none of us are forced to respond or even see them.

We all slip up, but we certainly shouldn’t be advocating certain posters refrain from airing their views because some of us don’t like them, any points of view that are distasteful or crude or disgusting can always be reported for mods to deal with.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you said there.  Good post .


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Last weekend it was a family from London going fishing in Devon.
Yesterday  it was a family from London going for a spin to the Lake district.
Both were fined and sent home but no mention of how much the fine was.
If they had been fined a £1000, it would be all over every media platform in hours.
Deterent
		
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A serial lockdown ignorer here in Spain, stopped 6 times, has just been given a 6 month sentence. Bit harsh? I think 1 month would have been enough.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2020)

On a lighter note, do Dyson make Liposuction attachments ,  I'll be needing one soon


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 14, 2020)

It is about it being a deterrent as much as a punishment.  A few £1,000 highly publicised fines (so long as they were truly deserved) would do wonders for getting the message across.

Although I'd have no problem with cruxifiction - for a first offense  ;-)     Best thing the Romans ever did for us.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Last weekend it was a family from London going fishing in Devon.
Yesterday  it was a family from London going for a spin to the Lake district.
Both were fined and sent home but no mention of how much the fine was.
If they had been fined a £1000, it would be all over every media platform in hours.
Deterent
		
Click to expand...

Here are the Police guidelines:

instruct them to go home, leave an area or disperse
ensure parents are taking necessary steps to stop their children breaking these rules
issue a fixed penalty notice of £60, which will be lowered to £30 if paid within 14 days
issue a fixed penalty notice of £120 for second time offenders, doubling on each further repeat offence


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			It is about it being a deterrent as much as a punishment.  A few £1,000 highly publicised fines (so long as they were truly deserved) would do wonders for getting the message across.

Although I'd have no problem with cruxifiction - for a first offense  ;-)     Best thing the Romans ever did for us.
		
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Would that only be a seasonal punishment?


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## Imurg (Apr 14, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			It is about it being a deterrent as much as a punishment.  A few £1,000 highly publicised fines (so long as they were truly deserved) would do wonders for getting the message across.

Although I'd have no problem with cruxifiction - for a first offense  ;-)     Best thing the Romans ever did for us.
		
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Aqueducts..?


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## User62651 (Apr 14, 2020)

Doing the rounds on facebook, stark reminder for many of us sat at home a little bored.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Doing the rounds on facebook, stark reminder for many of us sat at home a little bored.

View attachment 29949

Click to expand...

Yes, I think the vast majority of us understand what they are doing for us and but for the grace of God there go I.


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## huds1475 (Apr 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*Hallelujah!*

Many of you will have seen the piece on the news several weeks ago about the ice rink in Madrid being used as a morgue. It closed today, no longer required. TBH, I'll take any indication of positive change.

Click to expand...

Brilliant. We'll all take any positives we can get Brian!


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would that only be a seasonal punishment?
		
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Maybe, but it'll come back and haunt you for at least 2020 years


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## huds1475 (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The posters I dislike I put on ignore.
		
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Who said that???


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Last weekend it was a family from London going fishing in Devon.
Yesterday  it was a family from London going for a spin to the Lake district.
Both were fined and sent home but no mention of how much the fine was.
If they had been fined a £1000, it would be all over every media platform in hours.
Deterent
		
Click to expand...

For some balance, I'd like to point out the thousands upon thousands that have done the right thing... Making it a whole lot easier to pick out the relative handfuls of DH's...


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Who said that???
		
Click to expand...

Hello hello is anybody there, hello hello, I feel a song coming on  LOL


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If someone had, say, lung cancer, and only had a few days to live but was killed by a bus... lung caner or the bus? Does most people die of old age, bearing in mind age gets us all eventually, or heart attack/stroke/Covid?
		
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That is an interesting point, when we were involved with a breast cancer charity they ran a campaign that one in ten women would die of breast cancer.
Checking that stat we found that they were including many elderly women. If a woman of 95 dies, something must go on the death certificate.
My mum is 95 and has had breast cancer for the last three years, it has never been a problem for her, she takes one pill a day and apart from a dodgy hip is in good health.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If someone had, say, lung cancer, and only had a few days to live but was killed by a bus... lung caner or the bus? Does most people die of old age, bearing in mind age gets us all eventually, or heart attack/stroke/Covid?
		
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I guess the 'cause of death' would be the bus although I'm not sure i.f they would be added to the daily covid numbers.  I've heard of people recently who were admitted to Hospital with a serious condition who caught Covid while in the hospital and died, 'Eddie Large' (Little and Large) being one recently.


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## Slime (Apr 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A serial lockdown ignorer here in Spain, stopped 6 times, has just been given a 6 month sentence. *Bit harsh?* I think 1 month would have been enough.
		
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Not in the slightest!
If he/she hadn't learned after five offences, maybe he/she will after this!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 14, 2020)

Slime said:



			Not in the slightest!
If he/she hadn't learned after five offences, maybe he/she will after this!
		
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Under existing UK rules they could have been fined £1,920 or an unlimited fine of they didnt pay it.


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Under existing UK rules they could have been fined £1,920 or an unlimited fine of they didnt pay it.
		
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The number of fines for Spain was announced earlier today. Massively up on the last time it was published. Even with the Draconian measures, 650,000 fines. Even with the €30 fine for being out walking, and all the €600 fines + one business has been fined €60,000 its difficult to see it as a deterrent. Maybe it is. One thing is for sure, even €300 x 650,000 will buy a few ventilators. All fine money is being given to the Spanish health service... €195,000,000.


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## drdel (Apr 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I believe I've read, and I stand to be corrected, that the UK has made Covid 19 a notifiable disease, meaning in effect that everyone who tests positive for the virus goes down as a Covid 19 death, regardless of other circumstances.  Germany I understand considers whether the pre-existing conditions, if any, are the more likely cause of death & if so does not attribute the death to Covid 19.  If correct, that would go some way to explaining the disparity in deaths due to the virus.
		
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But the Covid19 victims' deaths recorded outside the NHS hospitals may be listed as a virus death but the victim has not been tested - it may be just that the symptoms were similar so that's the doctor assumption.


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## woofers (Apr 14, 2020)

Tricky one, statistics.
Apparently most people die in bed......so statistically, a bed is a very dangerous places to be.


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## drdel (Apr 14, 2020)

woofers said:



			Tricky one, statistics.
Apparently most people die in bed......so statistically, a bed is a very dangerous places to be.
		
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Especially if its not your own


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## TheDiablo (Apr 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course it’s different, using your scenario: You attended a house fire, return to the station and one of the support staff posts on a Public forum how many have died etc you believe that’s ok? It’s not down to them or you to decide what information needs to be in the public domain, it’s why we have “Press Officers” so this information can be controlled.

I’ve seen the damage first hand from Afghan and Iraq when people have “shared” information on deaths they see as harmless.

Fact is, names or not he is breaking confidentiality giving numbers out.
		
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Bad enough having self appointed medics, mathematicians and politicians everywhere, now here come the newly qualified lawyers!

Embarrassing.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 14, 2020)

woofers said:



			Tricky one, statistics.
Apparently most people die in bed......so statistically, a bed is a very dangerous places to be.
		
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And the toilet...


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## harpo_72 (Apr 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			Especially if its not your own 

Click to expand...

I think at that point your past caring ... it’s just the poor soul who was in it with you.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 14, 2020)

Some discussion over dinner tonight about the stats and issued numbers. There are delays in the data coming through. 
Is there a corrected data table ? I know some are avidly waiting on the data each day, but Monday and Sunday seems to be off ... so why not say on Thursday we will release the count for Tuesday.. giving everyone a chance to get their data in? It might be a little easier to predict from as it should be accurate.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 14, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Aqueducts..?

Click to expand...


And the roads although they go without saying


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Some discussion over dinner tonight about the stats and issued numbers. There are delays in the data coming through.
Is there a corrected data table ? I know some are avidly waiting on the data each day, but Monday and Sunday seems to be off ... so why not say on Thursday we will release the count for Tuesday.. giving everyone a chance to get their data in? It might be a little easier to predict from as it should be accurate.
		
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I don’t think even that would be accurate, I think it was yesterday when over 700 deaths were announced the breakdown was along the lines of, over 100+ were in the last 24 hours, one went back to 26th March and the remainder died between 1st and 11th April.

Maybe it’s the delay in those who have died outside hospital or in hospital but not known to have Covid-19 until the tests and autopsies are complete.

The only accurate number on the day seems to be the overall figure.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 14, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's fairly complex (I think) Someone may have a serious condition that has the potential to kill them, that person then gets flu like symptoms and dies.  Would they be tested for Covid, did they have Covid, did the serious condition kill them, maybe it was tipped over the edge by covid, would they have died anyway?
		
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With a large amount of sadness I am going to suggest that many will be taken, in these horrendous times, long before they were ready to be taken...


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## Hobbit (Apr 14, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With a large amount of sadness I am going to suggest that many will be taken, in these horrendous times, long before they were ready to be taken...
		
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In the same week in 2018, winter flu took 35 people. 6,000 last week.

I had a look at the annual death rate of things like Typhoid last week. Typhoid take around 140,000 a year. I dread to think what the final C19 figure will be.


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## drdel (Apr 14, 2020)

Reality....


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## Old Skier (Apr 14, 2020)

Looks like your better off not being on the NHS front line, no wonder the NHS in normal times is such a financial mess


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## woofers (Apr 14, 2020)

Ah, an answer to the numbers in the pop up Nightingale Hospital at the ExCel centre.................19

https://www.hsj.co.uk/service-desig...ly-empty-as-icus-handle-surge/7027398.article


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Looks like your better off not being on the NHS front line, no wonder the NHS in normal times is such a financial mess

View attachment 29954

Click to expand...

This is what I can see changing long term. The Tories have seen the NHS can't be run into the ground and sold off. We need it. The debt has been written off. I can see middle management numbers being stream lined and made more cost effective.

Well I hope


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 14, 2020)

Just had confirmed we lost our first member to Covid-19 today, really nice guy, played with him quite a few times over the years, very sad, RIP mate.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			This is what I can see changing long term. The Tories have seen the NHS can't be run into the ground and sold off. We need it. The debt has been written off. I can see middle management numbers being stream lined and made more cost effective.

Well I hope
		
Click to expand...

It's already happening - at least in my trust but also in a neighbouring one. Lots of streamlining of services, new tech including virtual clinics (online) means a lot of admin managers have gone as the admin staff being streamlined. A lot of the band 5 junior management roles no longer exists


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 14, 2020)

I have reopened the Religion & Coronavirus thread where if anyone wants to discuss their theological views, they can

Certain posts have been moved from this thread

Please only post on the other thread if you have something constructive to say.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It's already happening - at least in my trust but also in a neighbouring one. Lots of streamlining of services, new tech including virtual clinics (online) means a lot of admin managers have gone as the admin staff being streamlined. A lot of the band 5 junior management roles no longer exists
		
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I mean no offence but this if it affects you but good, government departments are full of it. I know we are. Loads of management , levels that we just dont need that could save fortunes without costing front line staff


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## IainP (Apr 14, 2020)

drdel said:



			Reality....


View attachment 29953
View attachment 29953

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I recall those, they are a couple of weeks old now aren't they?
Same group published these today


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I mean no offence but this if it affects you but good, government departments are full of it. I know we are. Loads of management , levels that we just dont need that could save fortunes without costing front line staff
		
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I agree totally. I came from a civil service background (I use to be Maggie Thatchers pay clerk as one of my varied roles) and the middle management especially in central offices is absurd even now. Makes you wonder how any decisions ever get made with so many managers at different levels getting involved. It is one aspect the NHS had been taking strides to sort (certainly in the local trusts I have dealings with)


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## Fish (Apr 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree totally. I came from a civil service background (I use to be Maggie Thatchers pay clerk as one of my varied roles) and the middle management especially in central offices is absurd even now. Makes you wonder how any decisions ever get made with so many managers at different levels getting involved. It is one aspect the NHS had been taking strides to sort (certainly in the local trusts I have dealings with)
		
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NHS procurement is shocking imo, now I appreciate that’s a sweeping comment, and there will be some trusts and individuals that are on their game, but myself and other Couriers I know are delivering plenty of PPE to some hospitals, repeatedly,  and sometimes within a week or two of delivering to them before!

We are seeing at some hospitals they actually don’t have the room in their stores to stock our new deliveries and also see that what was delivered just weeks before, is still sitting there untouched! 

I know a courier, who like me has been called to deliver some bulk PPE to some Midlands hospitals, and before getting the opportunity to quote, they have declared what they would pay.  

The amount was double what we’d normally quote, even at the high end, when actually stating that’s far too much, the answer back has been;

“that’s what we pay, accept it and do the job or someone else will”!

I suppose it’s easy to spend money when it’s not your own, but the waste in idle product being stock piled and excessive costs is huge! 

I’m struggling to accept any of the negative news stories regarding the lack of PPE, as an industry we’re delivering tens of thousands of it daily, and we’re seeing it stock piled in some places, so, is the lack of PPE in some hospitals just down to the procurement of it being totally incompetent covering those areas, not identifying who really needs it and looking into what’s been ordered prior, and if so, why is the govt constantly getting the flack, when we’re seeing, at the coal face, it’s nobody’s fault other than the management within the NHS’s procurement?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 15, 2020)

Fish said:



			NHS procurement is shocking imo, now I appreciate that’s a sweeping comment, and there will be some trusts and individuals that are on their game, but myself and other Couriers I know are delivering plenty of PPE to some hospitals, repeatedly,  and sometimes within a week or two of delivering to them before!

We are seeing at some hospitals they actually don’t have the room in their stores to stock our new deliveries and also see that what was delivered just weeks before, is still sitting there untouched!

I know a courier, who like me has been called to deliver some bulk PPE to some Midlands hospitals, and before getting the opportunity to quote, they have declared what they would pay. 

The amount was double what we’d normally quote, even at the high end, when actually stating that’s far too much, the answer back has been;

“that’s what we pay, accept it and do the job or someone else will”!

I suppose it’s easy to spend money when it’s not your own, but the waste in idle product being stock piled and excessive costs is huge!

I’m struggling to accept any of the negative news stories regarding the lack of PPE, as an industry we’re delivering tens of thousands of it daily, and we’re seeing it stock piled in some places, so, is the lack of PPE in some hospitals just down to the procurement of it being totally incompetent covering those areas, not identifying who really needs it and looking into what’s been ordered prior, and if so, why is the govt constantly getting the flack, when we’re seeing, at the coal face, it’s nobody’s fault other than the management within the NHS’s procurement?
		
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That’s pretty common in most industries... somewhere down the line common sense and having an understanding of cost got flushed down the toilet. 
You can explain profit and loss but few people really understand it. 
If they wanted a quote fast they should have done their tender quickly with a time to reply window. I remember purchasing adding 3 months to a tender for new business. It would involve them visiting the site and generally an exchange of bragging about how big a company was .. It would normally go t@ts up.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 15, 2020)

Our politicians get £10,000 for home offices; New Zealand's politicians get a pay cut!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12324961

Can the SAS kidnap their Prime Minister & get her over here?


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## bobmac (Apr 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Our politicians get £10,000 for home offices; New Zealand's politicians get a pay cut!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12324961

Click to expand...

Each MP isn't getting £10,000, the money is just there if they need it.
A new cushion for their chair, maybe some new curtains or a spare pencil sharpener.
However, they will all be getting a 3.1% pay*rise *in a few weeks.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 15, 2020)

Just watched something called the highwire which was investigating a claim by a New York ICU Dr who had noticed that C19 was not behaving like a pneumonia. They then cross referenced with an Italian Dr’s report and a Chinese medical paper. Basically suggesting it was similar to altitude sickness and it was more a blood disease as it attacked the bloods ability to collect oxygen and distribute it. 
It concluded that the vents were not the ideal solution, forms of increasing oxygen in the system were discussed and their pitfalls ... well worth looking at.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 15, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Just watched something called the highwire which was investigating a claim by a New York ICU Dr who had noticed that C19 was not behaving like a pneumonia. They then cross referenced with an Italian Dr’s report and a Chinese medical paper. Basically suggesting it was similar to altitude sickness and it was more a blood disease as it attacked the bloods ability to collect oxygen and distribute it.
It concluded that the vents were not the ideal solution, forms of increasing oxygen in the system were discussed and their pitfalls ... well worth looking at.
		
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Oh, I hope that someone high in the Government picks this up and has it investigated. If there is credence to it then get cracking on detailed investigation by the medically qualified.
Get some coordination and cooperation between countries on this.
Surely there is something about this virus that is evading our present knowledge. As someone put it, "Are we missing something in front of us?"
Good luck and thanks to all who are looking hard at this bloody awful virus.


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## BrianM (Apr 15, 2020)

Well test day has come, supposed to be this afternoon.
Still don‘t feel great, not as bad as the weekend but feel like I’m blowing out of my backside on a walk to the bathroom.
Day 7 stuck in this hotel room and it its a lovely day outside.
To put it into perspective it’s been nowhere near as bad as the flu, which floored me for days, but mentally it has been so much tougher, probably the unknown of the virus, so much information on the news and various websites all with conflicting reports.
Id consider myself fit and healthy enough, but you just never know.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh, I hope that someone high in the Government picks this up and has it investigated. If there is credence to it then get cracking on detailed investigation by the medically qualified.
Get some coordination and cooperation between countries on this.
Surely there is something about this virus that is evading our present knowledge. As someone put it, "Are we missing something in front of us?"
Good luck and thanks to all who are looking hard at this bloody awful virus.
		
Click to expand...

Last night I caught a snippet end of interview (on Ch4 News?  not sure) with a Dr or other expert talking about how the virus appears to be affecting different patients in different ways...I can't recall any detail...so maybe linked to the findings of the report?

And also read yesterday how the ventilators being produced by McLaren have been rejected - I think on the grounds that the understanding of the ventilation required has moved on and developed very quickly - and so these ventilators don't fit the bill. I think that was the gist of it.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Last night I caught a snippet end of interview (on Ch4 News?  not sure) with a Dr or other expert talking about how the virus appears to be affecting different patients in different ways...I can't recall any detail...so maybe linked to the findings of the report?

And also read yesterday how the ventilators being produced by McLaren have been rejected - I think on the grounds that the understanding of the ventilation required has moved on and developed very quickly - and so these ventilators don't fit the bill. I think that was the gist of it.
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is that altitude sickness varies from person to person as well .. which might be why you see different responses.
I think the mask and oxygen systems ( little black box thing by Mercedes F1) might be of use.
Definitely worth spending some time considering all of this.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Last night I caught a snippet end of interview (on Ch4 News?  not sure) with a Dr or other expert talking about how the virus appears to be affecting different patients in different ways...I can't recall any detail...so maybe linked to the findings of the report?

And also read yesterday how the ventilators being produced by McLaren have been rejected - I think on the grounds that the understanding of the ventilation required has moved on and developed very quickly - and so these ventilators don't fit the bill. I think that was the gist of it.
		
Click to expand...

Saw something similar about how certain genetic traits will affect how the body reacts to the virus, hence some barely knowing they have it and others succumbing. I think they're trying to identify what and how as this is all so new it wouldn't have been identified before.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Saw something similar about how certain genetic traits will affect how the body reacts to the virus, hence some barely knowing they have it and others succumbing. I think they're trying to identify what and how as this is all so new it wouldn't have been identified before.
		
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BBC News - UK Biobank: DNA to unlock coronavirus secrets
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52243605
This is an interesting article about how scientists are trying to get some answers on that Amanda


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## drdel (Apr 15, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well test day has come, supposed to be this afternoon.
Still don‘t feel great, not as bad as the weekend but feel like I’m blowing out of my backside on a walk to the bathroom.
Day 7 stuck in this hotel room and it its a lovely day outside.
To put it into perspective it’s been nowhere near as bad as the flu, which floored me for days, but mentally it has been so much tougher, probably the unknown of the virus, so much information on the news and various websites all with conflicting reports.
Id consider myself fit and healthy enough, but you just never know.
		
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Remember that in reality most are (80%+) are fine, very few healthy people have much to worry about. All the best.


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## Orikoru (Apr 15, 2020)

Just had it confirmed that paycuts are being rolled out across my company, tiered so the highest earners get the biggest cuts. Mine is only 5% so not too bad while I'm not having to travel in anyway. We do have to consent to it though, and I'm not really sure what happens if certain people don't give their consent.


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## Imurg (Apr 15, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well test day has come, supposed to be this afternoon.
Still don‘t feel great, not as bad as the weekend but feel like I’m blowing out of my backside on a walk to the bathroom.
Day 7 stuck in this hotel room and it its a lovely day outside.
To put it into perspective it’s been nowhere near as bad as the flu, which floored me for days, but mentally it has been so much tougher, probably the unknown of the virus, so much information on the news and various websites all with conflicting reports.
Id consider myself fit and healthy enough, but you just never know.
		
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Sounds a bit like me Brian...a bit breathless but in normal circumstances, if it wasnt for the lockdown, I'd have gone to work...
Hope you feel better as quick as I did.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 15, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Just watched something called the highwire which was investigating a claim by a New York ICU Dr who had noticed that C19 was not behaving like a pneumonia. They then cross referenced with an Italian Dr’s report and a Chinese medical paper. Basically suggesting it was similar to altitude sickness and it was more a blood disease as it attacked the bloods ability to collect oxygen and distribute it.
It concluded that the vents were not the ideal solution, forms of increasing oxygen in the system were discussed and their pitfalls ... well worth looking at.
		
Click to expand...

That sounds fairly convincing.
Anyone want to buy 40,000 ventilators.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 15, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Just had it confirmed that paycuts are being rolled out across my company, tiered so the highest earners get the biggest cuts. Mine is only 5% so not too bad while I'm not having to travel in anyway. We do have to consent to it though, and I'm not really sure what happens if certain people don't give their consent.
		
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Are they just during this outbreak? 

Everyone at my place was begging for furlough as they'd not really lose out when you consider travel and buying rubbish for lunch etc. 

Obviously you're stil working, but I'd imagine 5% can be saved pretty easily atm.


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## Orikoru (Apr 15, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Are they just during this outbreak?

Everyone at my place was begging for furlough as they'd not really lose out when you consider travel and buying rubbish for lunch etc.

Obviously you're stil working, but I'd imagine 5% can be saved pretty easily atm.
		
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Yeah it's fine for now, but they've stated this will be until the end of the year. So when we're all back in the office I will try and agree it so I can work one day a week from home to offset some of the money I'll be losing out on. (My travel is around £11.20 a day.)


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## IanM (Apr 15, 2020)

This period will certainly kill off the 25 year cultural battle about working from home!  

I've just been into Newport to do a click and collect from Tesco.  (15 miles away)  It's the first time the car has moved/I've left the village in over three weeks.  Felt really weird. Getting paranoid about wiping down the shopping and washing hands multiple times.................


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Saw something similar about how certain genetic traits will affect how the body reacts to the virus, hence some barely knowing they have it and others succumbing. I think they're trying to identify what and how as this is all so new it wouldn't have been identified before.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - that was it I think.  I could have an underlying genetic trait that so far - and in my parents and grandparents - has never been triggered - but that the coronavirus just might...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That sounds fairly convincing.
Anyone want to buy 40,000 ventilators. 

Click to expand...

I'd have them offered to the orange eejit across the pond - but the good folks across there have enough to be dealing with


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## Billysboots (Apr 15, 2020)

Turns out a guy I work with has had the virus and was almost entirely asymptomatic, with the exception of a mild headache. Because of his wife’s work in private healthcare her employers managed to source some antigen tests from overseas and he has coronavirus antibodies.

At least two other guys in our office have displayed moderate symptoms and two others have self-isolated because family members have.

I do wonder now how many of our relatively small office have had this and displayed no symptoms. The sooner we have antigen testing the better.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2020)

IanM said:



			This period will certainly kill off the 25 year cultural battle about working from home!  

I've just been into Newport to do a click and collect from Tesco.  (15 miles away)  It's the first time the car has moved/I've left the village in over three weeks.  Felt really weird. Getting paranoid about wiping down the shopping and washing hands multiple times.................
		
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Its the paranoia that sends you over the edge!! Just been for a dog walk, 20 mins less than mile (daughter walks slow) didn't touch anything but his lead ... Got home dettoled the lead, the porch, then washed my hands lol mental when you think about it


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## huds1475 (Apr 15, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			My understanding is that altitude sickness varies from person to person as well .. which might be why you see different responses.
I think the mask and oxygen systems ( little black box thing by Mercedes F1) might be of use.
Definitely worth spending some time considering all of this.
		
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I've read a similar article in the telegraph over the long weekend. 

My takeaway was oxygen levels in blood could be key, to use a ventilator to resolve wasn't the right option in a lot of cases. Rather the smaller masks etc...

I think, but am not entirely sure, this is what happened with Boris.

Just goes to show how new this thing is and that 'we' are learning about it all the time. Its great that the medical community can share their observations / gained knowledge quickly with their peers internationally. 

Meanwhile, back in the UK, the TV media are still droning on about PPE.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Turns out a guy I work with has had the virus and was almost entirely asymptomatic, with the exception of a mild headache. Because of his wife’s work in private healthcare her employers managed to source some antigen tests from overseas and he has coronavirus antibodies.

At least two other guys in our office have displayed moderate symptoms and two others have self-isolated because family members have.

I do wonder now how many of our relatively small office have had this and displayed no symptoms. The sooner we have antigen testing the better.
		
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Strange, didn't think a successful test has yet been cleared for use.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, didn't think a successful test has yet been cleared for use.
		
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Come to think of it, I understand that is the case. If there were such tests
I think I'd have remembered it from the daily briefings.
Maybe the telling word is "overseas"


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## Billysboots (Apr 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, didn't think a successful test has yet been cleared for use.
		
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Privately purchased from abroad.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Privately purchased from abroad.
		
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Got that  and my comment was about world wide tests, and as I said, it was my understanding that a test had not yet been validated.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 15, 2020)

Oh dear.  Hancock is waffling terribly on the matter of a bare bones plan for getting out of lock-down and tests for social care (homes)...and yes - he is being asked the same or similar follow up questions - because he is waffling...

Come on Secretary of State - you actually _can _do a lot better than this.  You _are _better than most of your colleagues.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 15, 2020)

How is this reporter allowed to spend "a sobering day at a nursing home"? Surely that is not a sensible idea...


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## AmandaJR (Apr 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear.  Hancock is waffling terribly on the matter of a bare bones plan for getting out of lock-down...and yes - he is being asked the same or similar follow up questions - because he is waffling...

Come on Secretary of State - you actually _can _do a lot better than this.  You _are _better than most of your colleagues.
		
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He doesn't seem quite as on it as usual for sure. Probably exhausted.

I think they'e setting the scene for lockdown being effective and then tomorrow will announce a further 3 weeks minimum.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear.  Hancock is waffling terribly on the matter of a bare bones plan for getting out of lock-down and tests for social care (homes)...and yes - he is being asked the same or similar follow up questions - because he is waffling...

Come on Secretary of State - you actually _can _do a lot better than this.  You _are _better than most of your colleagues.
		
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Perhaps he should give the Macron approach a go and try some bare arsed honesty...


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			He doesn't seem quite as on it as usual for sure. Probably exhausted.

I think they'e setting the scene for lockdown being effective and then tomorrow will announce a further 3 weeks minimum.
		
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I agree. I would suggest get past the bank holiday Friday (that doesn't type or read right) and then make gradual changes. Schools going back on the following Monday seems on the cards so about half a term missed. Hopefully golf clubs could get opened as well even if the bar and clubhouse restrictions aren't lifted


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 15, 2020)

From the graphs I saw at the briefing, I wouldn't yet been contemplating a change.  I don't know what he said about that as I left the channel when the press started.  I would have said simply that none is imminent, it's too early to undo what we have so far achieved.
Pressing for a strategy is to my mind trying to nail the Government down to a plan they won't be comfortable  setting in stone. If they had to change the strategy , I imagine they would be having to fend off allegations of lies etc.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear.  Hancock is waffling terribly on the matter of a bare bones plan for getting out of lock-down and tests for social care (homes)...and yes - he is being asked the same or similar follow up questions - because he is waffling...

Come on Secretary of State - you actually _can _do a lot better than this.  You _are _better than most of your colleagues.
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 15, 2020)

Handcock, English NHS and Public Health England definitely did not instruct suppliers to deny NI, Wales and Scotland with PPE equipment for care homes.
They just told them to supply sites that were registered to a care company plan that operated only in England.

Hancock seems to have reverted to dithering mode, he did so well when Boris was absent, wonder if he is scared to lose his job.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree. I would suggest get past the bank holiday Friday (that doesn't type or read right) and then make gradual changes. Schools going back on the following Monday seems on the cards so about half a term missed. Hopefully golf clubs could get opened as well even if the bar and clubhouse restrictions aren't lifted
		
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I think that's about as accurate as your football perditions Homer but I admire your optimism.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 15, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree. I would suggest get past the bank holiday Friday (that doesn't type or read right) and then make gradual changes. Schools going back on the following Monday seems on the cards so about half a term missed. Hopefully golf clubs could get opened as well even if the bar and clubhouse restrictions aren't lifted
		
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Believe you've got your optimistic head on Homer...


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Handcock, English NHS and Public Health England definitely did not instruct suppliers to deny Wales and Scotland with PPE equipment for care homes.
They just told them to supply sites that were registered to a care company plan that operated only in England.

Hancock seems to have reverted to dithering mode, he did so well when Boris was absent, wonder if he is scared to lose his job.
		
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Well the head of Scottish health seems to disagree with you, but what would he know.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think that's about as accurate as your football perditions Homer but I admire your optimism.
		
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I'll remind you of my lofty position in the prediction league sir. Ready to make a end of season push to the top of the table

On a more sombre note - we lost one of our own yesterday https://www.royalberkshire.nhs.uk/  Had the pleasure of dealing with this doctor for many years, especially when I was in medical recruitment and a real expert in the neurorehab field


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## BrianM (Apr 15, 2020)

Well test cancelled as they have run out of tests, I despair.
On another note, we have another positive case from the rig.


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## Fish (Apr 15, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well test cancelled as they have run out of tests, I despair.
On another note, we have another positive case from the rig.
		
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Are they choppered off or isolated on the rig, single bunk?


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## hovis (Apr 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Got that  and my comment was about world wide tests, and as I said, it was my understanding that a test had not yet been validated.
		
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they haven't.  fox news done a test about 2 weeks ago with numerous test on a known covid patent (in recovery showing no covid)  the tests where all over the place.  manufacturers all had a chance to respond and they all said you have to wait between 3 to 6 weeks to produce enough antibodies to show up on the test.   i for one wouldn't trust one


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## BrianM (Apr 15, 2020)

Fish said:



			Are they choppered off or isolated on the rig, single bunk?
		
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We took the rig into the Cromarty Firth as the contract has been cancelled due to Coronavirus and the company have decided just to scrap the rig.
It is single cabins for the remainder onboard but we had a special helicopter for suspected cases at the time get helicoptered off, this was funded by all the big players.
Basically just essential personnel left until the rig leaves to go to turkey.
All changes now done using a Frog and boat.


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## Backache (Apr 15, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Turns out a guy I work with has had the virus and was almost entirely asymptomatic, with the exception of a mild headache. Because of his wife’s work in private healthcare her employers managed to source some antigen tests from overseas and he has coronavirus antibodies.

At least two other guys in our office have displayed moderate symptoms and two others have self-isolated because family members have.

I do wonder now how many of our relatively small office have had this and displayed no symptoms. The sooner we have antigen testing the better.
		
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If he had an antigen test how did they see that he had antibodies?


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## Mudball (Apr 15, 2020)

In unrelated news.. Priti Patel just threw up >> Eastern Europeans to be flown in to pick fruit and veg https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293061


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## SocketRocket (Apr 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			In unrelated news.. Priti Patel just threw up >> Eastern Europeans to be flown in to pick fruit and veg https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293061

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Why! Does she hate Eastern Europieans?


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## Billysboots (Apr 15, 2020)

Backache said:



			If he had an antigen test how did they see that he had antibodies?
		
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Antigen, antibody. I’m not a scientist. Whatever test he had confirmed he has had Coronavirus.


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## Billysboots (Apr 15, 2020)

hovis said:



			i for one wouldn't trust one
		
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Oh, he certainly doesn’t entirely trust it! I’m merely relaying what the test showed.

I certainly don’t doubt there are thousands out there who have had it and either shown no symptoms or have thought it was something very minor.


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## Slime (Apr 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			In unrelated news.. Priti Patel just threw up >> Eastern Europeans to be flown in to pick fruit and veg.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Why! Does she hate Eastern Europeans?
		
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No, I thinks it's because she hates fruit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

Watching Hancock yesterday and listening to him today - the guy looks and sounds knackered. And he has every right to be - especially given he’s had the virus not that long ago...maybe the government needs to pull in Jeremy Hunt to take some of the load and perhaps even do some of the briefings.


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## Mudball (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Watching Hancock yesterday and listening to him today - the guy looks and sounds knackered. And he has every right to be - especially given he’s had the virus not that long ago...maybe the government needs to pull in Jeremy Hunt to take some of the load and perhaps even do some of the briefings.
		
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Agree Hancock looked tired... why aren’t more of them putting their hand up to do the briefing .. surely others are equally capable (other than Gove) .. the scientists seem to be pretty good at these briefing


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Watching Hancock yesterday and listening to him today - the guy looks and sounds knackered. And he has every right to be - especially given he’s had the virus not that long ago...maybe the government needs to pull in Jeremy Hunt to take some of the load and perhaps even do some of the briefings.
		
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Yes, I agree, the load should be shared.


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## User62651 (Apr 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Agree Hancock looked tired... why aren’t more of them putting their hand up to do the briefing .. surely others are equally capable (other than Gove) .. the scientists seem to be pretty good at these briefing
		
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Just looked at the cabinet as a minder, perhaps because so many are new and a bit forgettable, so with Boris recovering you have Sunak, Patel and Raab taking turns as the top ministers with Hancock taking the brunt as his health role is arguably most pertinent. 4 of them covering the briefings with Gove popping up too as a 5th to support shouldn't be too onerous, between 1 and 2 briefings each a week.

What news of Boris? Seems to be little coming out on his health.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Just looked at the cabinet as a minder, perhaps because so many are new and a bit forgettable, so with Boris recovering you have Sunak, Patel and Raab taking turns as the top ministers with Hancock taking the brunt as his health role is arguably most pertinent. 4 of them covering the briefings with Gove popping up too as a 5th to support shouldn't be too onerous, between 1 and 2 briefings each a week.

What news of Boris? Seems to be little coming out on his health.
		
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last I heard, he was playing Suduko and watching Lord of the Rings. Am guessing we will hear from him once he's finished the box set.


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## Mudball (Apr 16, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Just looked at the cabinet as a minder, perhaps because so many are new and a bit forgettable, so with Boris recovering you have Sunak, Patel and Raab taking turns as the top ministers with Hancock taking the brunt as his health role is arguably most pertinent. 4 of them covering the briefings with Gove popping up too as a 5th to support shouldn't be too onerous, between 1 and 2 briefings each a week.

*What news of Boris? Seems to be little coming out on his health*.
		
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He was at Chequers.. I guess he needs to just switch off for a few days.  He needs time for himself and family.   Not worth the risk or trouble tbh.  The rest of the cabinet should cover.     Besides the above, did we not see Alok Sharma - Bus Secretary one day - he sounded ok, though i dont remember what he was talking about.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 16, 2020)

I didn’t know that flights are still coming in from New York and Italy up to 15,000 a day coming into UK from different parts of the world,seems irresponsible to me when the Government are telling us all not to travel.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Agree Hancock looked tired... why aren’t more of them putting their hand up to do the briefing .. surely others are equally capable (other than Gove) .. the scientists seem to be pretty good at these briefing
		
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Listened to Shadow Health Secretary Ashworth on Sky earlier. Such a negative person who worse than most politicians  
avoided every question.

Only had his own agenda, was unable to offer anything constructive and surely Starmer could have found a more capable person for such a prominent position


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 16, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Just looked at the cabinet as a minder,* perhaps because so many are new and a bit forgettable,* so with Boris recovering you have Sunak, Patel and Raab taking turns as the top ministers with Hancock taking the brunt as his health role is arguably most pertinent. 4 of them covering the briefings with Gove popping up too as a 5th to support shouldn't be too onerous, between 1 and 2 briefings each a week.

What news of Boris? Seems to be little coming out on his health.
		
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Or perhaps with one or two exceptions they would be well out of their depth in that situation.  As a couple have already proved. Said it before and I'll say it again, the cabinet are mostly there for 'getting Brexit done', but when some proper leadership is needed in testing times where they need more than some pre-rehearsed bland statements about taking back control then quite a few seem to be lacking.  Hence to need to bring in the experts in these conferences as much as possible to reassure the nation.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			He was at Chequers.. I guess he needs to just switch off for a few days.  He needs time for himself and family.   Not worth the risk or trouble tbh.  The rest of the cabinet should cover.     Besides the above, did we not see Alok Sharma - Bus Secretary one day - he sounded ok, though i dont remember what he was talking about.
		
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He was a disaster. Couldn't answer any questions. Got totally slaughtered in the press the next day. Even The Telegraph tore him to pieces.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			I didn’t know that flights are still coming in from New York and Italy up to 15,000 a day coming into UK from different parts of the world,seems irresponsible to me when the Government are telling us all not to travel.
		
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It's absolutely crazy. Wouldn't be so bad if they were put into isolation for 14 days on arrival, but no, they are allowed to bugger off and go where they please.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

I think we need to hear from the Leader of the House of Commons,  he is always brim full of confidence and certainty.  Joking aside,  Jenrick and Gove are almost as bad at doing the briefing as Sharma.  Robert Buckland is a QC so he should be able to get on top of a brief and present it.  Liz Truss (International Trade) and Therese Coffey (Work and Pensions) should also be on top of the brief as it impacts their areas and wider.  And they have the Chief MO and Chief Scientist for the detail.

But on Health, reports are that Hunt has done a very good job as Chair of that Health Select Committee.  Now he absolutely has baggage with the NHS...but that is the past and the NHS and care workers know he knows the NHS


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's absolutely crazy. Wouldn't be so bad if they were put into isolation for 14 days on arrival, but no, they are allowed to bugger off and go where they please.
		
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Utter madness, 15,000 a day...…...…. they can't all be 'ex Pats'/returning economic migrants.


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's absolutely crazy. Wouldn't be so bad if they were put into isolation for 14 days on arrival, but no, they are allowed to bugger off and go where they please.
		
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I guess it is beyond the wit of the assembled hacks to grill them on this at the daily briefing. Seems important enough
One doesn't get the feeling that there much joined up thinking on this, or on the matter of getting going again.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I guess it is beyond the wit of the assembled hacks to grill them on this at the daily briefing. Seems important enough
One doesn't get the feeling that there much joined up thinking on this, or on the matter of getting going again.
		
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Matt Hancock got a grilling from Piers Morgan this morning but avoided the question


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## hovis (Apr 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			It's absolutely crazy. Wouldn't be so bad if they were put into isolation for 14 days on arrival, but no, they are allowed to bugger off and go where they please.
		
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can they go where they please?  the Hilton? center parks, alton towers?.   the government talked about this a few days ago.  only people who live here or have a purpose to be here are allowed to come and let's face it.  other than new York said travelers are coming to the danger zone not bringing it in.

where did the 15, 000 figure come from?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

Are all passengers tested or temperature checked at their departure point before they get on a flight to the UK?  I don't know.

One thing I am 100% sure of though is that there are very few aircraft in the skies above us - and we are bang between Gatwick and Heathrow - with Farnborough just down the road,  so if there 15,000 coming in every day I have no idea which airports they are flying in to.   That said - with hardly any flights maybe they don't have to come over us.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 16, 2020)

Plenty flack being thrown at the governmens handling of the pandemic from media and self appointed experts.
It's not just in the UK the same is happening in every other western country.
People seen to forget this is a unprecedented situation in our time.
There is no magic formula, I for one would not like to be in their boots.
It's the easiest thing in the world for the likes of Pierce Morgan to criticise others withoout coming up with answers themselves.
I'm sure Hancock looking tired might just be he's probably on the go day and night, just the same as you see NHS workers looking shattered.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			can they go where they please?  the Hilton? center parks, alton towers?.   the government talked about this a few days ago.  only people who live here or have a purpose to be here are allowed to come and let's face it.  other than new York said travelers are coming to the danger zone not bringing it in.

where did the 15, 000 figure come from?
		
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Believe one of the hotels adjacent to Heathrow was earmarked to be used for isolating new arrivals... Plenty of others available if more rooms needed... And, there can't be many places, elsewhere, that haven't been touched by covid... Surely, best practice would of been to isolate all new arrivals...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

The charity that my wife works for needs to reduce their monthly wage bill even more and she has been asked if she wishes to be furloughed.  She was not sure as she is still on probation and not sure how that would be viewed.  I assured her that her work would actually _want _her to put herself forward - they need to save money as their income has collapsed - and bluntly I guess they need to take 'advantage' of the government scheme to tide them over - and as she's the least experienced on the team she isn't key to delivery of their core support services.  That said - it doesn't sit that well with her getting paid for doing nothing.  But so be it.  Weird weird times we are living through.


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## hovis (Apr 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe one of the hotels adjacent to Heathrow was earmarked to be used for isolating new arrivals... Plenty of others available if more rooms needed... And, there can't be many places, elsewhere, that haven't been touched by covid... Surely, best practice would of been to isolate all new arrivals...
		
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how do you isolate 15,000 arrivals per week never mind per day (if the earlier post is correct)  isn't going home and staying indoors isolation?


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## Rlburnside (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			can they go where they please?  the Hilton? center parks, alton towers?.   the government talked about this a few days ago.  only people who live here or have a purpose to be here are allowed to come and let's face it.  other than new York said travelers are coming to the danger zone not bringing it in.

where did the 15, 000 figure come from?
		
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The 15,000 figure came from Matt Hancock this morning when answering a question from Piers  Morgan


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## MegaSteve (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			how do you isolate 15,000 arrivals per week never mind per day (if the earlier post is correct)  isn't going home and staying indoors isolation?
		
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That's assuming, of course, all the arrivals are from our shores...


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			can they go where they please?  the Hilton? center parks, alton towers?.   the government talked about this a few days ago.  only people who live here or have a purpose to be here are allowed to come and let's face it.  other than new York said travelers are coming to the danger zone not bringing it in.
		
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Today's scheduled arrivals include flights from Italy, Germany, Moscow and Iran. Plenty cases of the virus in each of those.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 16, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Plenty flack being thrown at the governmens handling of the pandemic from media and self appointed experts.
It's not just in the UK t*he same is happening in every other western country.*
People seen to forget this is a unprecedented situation in our time.
There is no magic formula, I for one would not like to be in their boots.
It's the easiest thing in the world for the likes of Pierce Morgan to criticise others withoout coming up with answers themselves.
I'm sure Hancock looking tired might just be he's probably on the go day and night, just the same as you see NHS workers looking shattered.
		
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No it is not. Yes every country has been impacted by the virus, but some had had different responses and are having different outcomes, some better, some worse.  But that does not mean people can not question the current response here.


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## hovis (Apr 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Today's scheduled arrivals include flights from Italy, Germany, Moscow and Iran. Plenty cases of the virus in each of those.
		
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so why are these people coming here?  Holiday?

where is this info coming from please?


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			isn't going home and staying indoors isolation?
		
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No, not in the accepted sense for people entering other countries.

One of my sons works as a teacher in Wuhan. He is currently stuck in Thailand with his wife who is Chinese. She has been told she can go back, but will need to go to a specific centre for 14 days, and will have to pay the cost of that.

He is not allowed in at all for the foreseeable future. 

Pretty draconian, but ultimately more effective than letting folk in and leaving them unchecked.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

We were on a 'House Party' call yesterday evening with four other couples - we are all very close friends.  

The nice thing about the call was that one of the couples in our group got married yesterday in a small town on the Belgium/Netherlands border.  The guys have been together for over 30yrs and decided to get married this year - oh the irony of it they said.  We were all going to be going (5 other couples) - but that was knocked on the head.

They were in the town hall with the Mayor and Registrar.  Nobody else.  They could stand together - the Mayor and Registrar stood 2m apart.  Out friends set up a laptop pointing at the officials and another pointing at themselves - so that friends and relatives could watch the ceremony on Zoom 

We are all supposed to be getting together 2nd week of October in Valencia - and if that happens we'll celebrate together then - though we hae oor doots about that.


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## BrianM (Apr 16, 2020)

Got my test this morning, bloody awful, swab down the throat then up each nostril.
Hopefully get my results tomorrow night or Saturday.
Still a bit choked up but have got zero taste or sense of smell.
Could do with getting my energy levels up, but nothing in the tank.


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## Robster59 (Apr 16, 2020)

Not affecting me directly but I love this video about what different countries deem "essential". 
The unexpected items countries deemed 'essential'


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			where is this info coming from please?
		
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https://www.airport-london-heathrow.com/lhr-arrivals


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			so why are these people coming here?  Holiday?

where is this info coming from please?
		
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15,000 per day I believe the figure is, here’s 2 screen shots a few seconds back from Flight Radar.
There are Cargo Flights, Internal Flights, International Flights, Passenger Flights and Private Planes.

As you can see Sky’s still pretty full.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Matt Hancock got a grilling from Piers Morgan this morning but avoided the question
		
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Is this the same Piers Morgan, self proclaimed savior of the NHS that accused junior doctors of holding the country to ransom over a pay rise not so long ago. The same Piers Morgan that keeps haranguing MPs for stopping an above inflation pat rise, was it that Piers Morgan.


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## hovis (Apr 16, 2020)

the point I'm trying to make (or the government is) is an Italian at the moment can't think "I fancy popping over to the UK for a nice little break". travel has to be essential.  the people arriving here have a pursose to be here.   with all the work the government is doing does anyone think they just think "sod it, let them in!! “


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

I just don't understand how the schools could reopen a week or two after the next period of lockdown unless we have a solid testing regime in place for us all - or at least for all children.  That children who pick up the virus might not be affected is one thing - but they can still share it around and bring it home... 

Sorry - don't get it.  what am I missing...?


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## Rlburnside (Apr 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is this the same Piers Morgan, self proclaimed savior of the NHS that accused junior doctors of holding the country to ransom over a pay rise not so long ago. The same Piers Morgan that keeps haranguing MPs for stopping an above inflation pat rise, was it that Piers Morgan.
		
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Hey I just happened to switch on his program this morning, I don’t normally watch him and only passed on some information I thought interesting. 🙄


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			the point I'm trying to make (or the government is) is an Italian at the moment can't think "I fancy popping over to the UK for a nice little break". travel has to be essential.  the people arriving here have a pursose to be here.   with all the work the government is doing does anyone think they just think "sod it, let them in!! “
		
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A mate of mine flew back from Thailand 2 weeks ago. He had been out there for 3 months, he splits his time between there, Turkey and the UK. No one asked him if his trip was essential, he just showed his passport and they let him in. 

I am sure no one is coming here for a holiday, but plenty folk will be thinking they would rather be here with access to the NHS if things get really bad, than be stuck somewhere which doesnt have the same level of health care.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Hey I just happened to switch on his program this morning, I don’t normally watch him and only passed on some information I thought interesting. 🙄
		
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Wasn't meant to be a suggestion that you were part of his fan club  apologies if it read that way.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just don't understand how the schools could reopen a week or two after the next period of lockdown unless we have a solid testing regime in place for us all - or at least for all children.  That children who pick up the virus might not be affected is one thing - but they can still share it around and bring it home...

Sorry - don't get it.  what am I missing...?
		
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Ask the teachers, I doubt they would be over the moon. Perhaps Tuesday will becone a clap for teachers day.


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## hovis (Apr 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			A mate of mine flew back from Thailand 2 weeks ago. He had been out there for 3 months, he splits his time between there, Turkey and the UK. No one asked him if his trip was essential, he just showed his passport and they let him in.

I am sure no one is coming here for a holiday, but plenty folk will be thinking they would rather be here with access to the NHS if things get really bad, than be stuck somewhere which doesnt have the same level of health care.
		
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did he have a British passport?.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			the point I'm trying to make (or the government is) is an Italian at the moment can't think "I fancy popping over to the UK for a nice little break". travel has to be essential.  the people arriving here have a pursose to be here.   with all the work the government is doing does anyone think they just think "sod it, let them in!! “
		
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I don’t believe for one minute they are saying sod it, but 15,000 per day from around the world, some will be Brits returning home, some may be coming to help the NHS etc, but whatever the reason if they have no symptoms(but still be infected) they can leave the Airport and travel on public transport etc with no restrictions.

I’d like to believe their is some sort of check or procedures that protects us and them.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			did he have a British passport?.
		
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He does. But as far as I am aware, we are not turning away people with EU passports (or US passports or valid visas for that matter).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			He does. But as far as I am aware, we are not turning away people with EU passports (or US passports or valid visas for that matter).
		
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Story in the media today of a US Grandmother taking legal action against Heathrow/Immigration.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/16/us-woman-refused-entry-uk-visit-pregnant-daughter


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Believe one of the hotels adjacent to Heathrow was earmarked to be used for isolating new arrivals... Plenty of others available if more rooms needed... And, there can't be many places, elsewhere, that haven't been touched by covid... Surely, best practice would of been to isolate all new arrivals...
		
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Not just for new arrivals. Five people from the boat I was working on had symptoms and were sent to a hotel at Heathrow to isolate before they were allowed home. I was allowed home as I wasn't showing any symptoms and was able to isolate at home.


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## Slab (Apr 16, 2020)

Isn't 15k just a rain drop of the usual number that would arrive in the UK from abroad


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

Almeria region, the bottom right corner of Spain from just below Murcia on the east coast to just around the corner past Almeria city, has had no deaths for 3 days in a row.


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t believe for one minute they are saying sod it, but 15,000 per day from around the world, some will be Brits returning home, some may be coming to help the NHS etc, but whatever the reason if they have no symptoms(but still be infected) they can leave the Airport and travel on public transport etc with no restrictions.

I’d like to believe their is some sort of check or procedures that protects us and them.
		
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You might like to think so, but you might be wrong. 
With this lot I've always taken the view that incompetence or venality is the default behaviour until it's conclusively proved otherwise. 
I've yet to see a reason to revise this.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Story in the media today of a US Grandmother taking legal action against Heathrow/Immigration.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/16/us-woman-refused-entry-uk-visit-pregnant-daughter

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That's an individual case, and possibly more to it than is in the article. there is no blanket ban on foreign nationals.


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Story in the media today of a US Grandmother taking legal action against Heathrow/Immigration.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/16/us-woman-refused-entry-uk-visit-pregnant-daughter

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France and Spain are doing the same thing. If you're not a repatriating national or don't have a good reason for the visit, you're turned back.


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

Slab said:



			Isn't 15k just a rain drop of the usual number that would arrive in the UK from abroad
		
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I could well be wrong (looking up data on a phone) but I think last April there were 21million passenger movements in UK airports. Which would be about 700000 a day...
Crazy!! But 15000 is obviously a huge decrease if my numbers are correct.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			That's an individual case, and possibly more to it than is in the article. there is no blanket ban on foreign nationals.
		
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Were did I mention blanket ban?
You stated we weren’t turning away people with US Passports, obviously we are, even if it’s just one, which means they are obviously doing some sort of check.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 16, 2020)

Slab said:



			Isn't 15k just a rain drop of the usual number that would arrive in the UK from abroad
		
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The issue to me is not so much the number, more the unrestricted travel once here.


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## bobmac (Apr 16, 2020)

Some of those flying in are from eastern Europe to pick fruit and veg

_''The firm has been working closely with Public Health England on safe transport arrangements and the group will be fully screened on arrival in the UK. Anyone found to have a temperature will be quarantined.''_

_https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293061 _


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I could well be wrong (looking up data on a phone) but I think last April there were 21million passenger movements in UK airports. Which would be about 700000 a day...
Crazy!! But 15000 is obviously a huge decrease if my numbers are correct.
		
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I get an update from the British Council pretty much every day detailing the repatriation flights from Spain - note, repatriation. There's several flights every day. One day last week there were 5 from Madrid alone. 

From the Expat FB pages here in Spain I see a fair number of Expats flying back to be with their families. Many still have property in the UK, and many will still be within the time frame that gives them 'right of entry.'

If you multiply that by the number of countries in which Expats live, or there are still holiday makers ,you won't be far short of the 15k.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just don't understand how the schools could reopen a week or two after the next period of lockdown unless we have a solid testing regime in place for us all - or at least for all children.  That children who pick up the virus might not be affected is one thing - but they can still share it around and bring it home...

Sorry - don't get it.  what am I missing...?
		
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The only thing I'm thinking on why the schools, is that the economy argument is starting to press home, and that a return to work isn't really at its maximum unless schools are open?
I'm not advocating it, just trying to rationale the thinking re schools.
IMO, schoolchildren are probably the most efficient at distributing the virus.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just don't understand how the schools could reopen a week or two after the next period of lockdown unless we have a solid testing regime in place for us all - or at least for all children.  That children who pick up the virus might not be affected is one thing - but they can still share it around and bring it home...

Sorry - don't get it.  what am I missing...?
		
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Maybe this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52308783

Self isolate from the grandparents & you'll be extremely low on the risk factors.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 16, 2020)

Seems to me folk are primed to kick off over the dozy handfuls that think it's OK to take a day trip to the seaside... But, remain ambivalent to seemingly thousands of arrivals, from overseas, ,being let loose with little or no checks ...


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## User62651 (Apr 16, 2020)

Noticeably more people out for 'exercise' along my street today walking in 2s, 3s and 4s. Happens to be the warmest sunniest day for quite a while too.
Is that happening elsewhere?


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52308783

Self isolate from the grandparents & you'll be extremely low on the risk factors.
		
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Maybe they think that education is actually quite important?
The ONS figures also show that there's quite a discreet demographic who are most affected by this, which is largely the same as it always was. I guess at some point there will need to be a different policy in place for both. Children and teachers are both outside the major risk areas. As are most working people.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 16, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Noticeably more people out for 'exercise' along my street today walking in 2s, 3s and 4s. Happens to be the warmest sunniest day for quite a while too.
Is that happening elsewhere?
		
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Whilst out for our walk earlier we both noted there seemed to be fewer out and about than there was before Easter... No idea why, as weather wise it's most pleasant...


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			No it is not. Yes every country has been impacted by the virus, but some had had different responses and are having different outcomes, some better, some worse.  But that does not mean people can not question the current response here.
		
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Just out of interest what is your solution?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Almeria region, the bottom right corner of Spain from just below Murcia on the east coast to just around the corner past Almeria city, has had no deaths for 3 days in a row.
		
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Well that's positive - may I seek your guesstimate of the likelihood of our holiday in Valencia in October going ahead?  My expectations are low...


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that's positive - may I seek your guesstimate of the likelihood of our holiday in Valencia in October going ahead?  My expectations are low...

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I wish I had a crystal ball. As a guess, based on what we're hearing from various ministers, yes holidays will happen but social distancing will still be in place. There's talk of aircraft being modded with some seat taken out or taped off. Its all just speculation though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I wish I had a crystal ball. As a guess, based on what we're hearing from various ministers, yes holidays will happen but social distancing will still be in place. There's talk of aircraft being modded with some seat taken out or taped off. Its all just speculation though.
		
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Easyjet have said that they will start up, not now incidentally, with the middle seat in aircraft row groups unoccupied. They will also put other measures in place in order to get things going again. How slowly will they be boarding aircraft? The Ryanair bloke will explode at taking longer than 3 1/2 minutes to fill a plane 

The head of Easyjet also pointed out that when they started flying again they did not expect to be that busy. They did not expect people to want to fly en masse for a period still.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Easyjet have said that they will start up, not now incidentally, with the middle seat in aircraft row groups unoccupied. They will also put other measures in place in order to get things going again. How slowly will they be boarding aircraft? The Ryanair bloke will explode at taking longer than 3 1/2 minutes to fill a plane 

The head of Easyjet also pointed out that when they started flying again they did not expect to be that busy. They did not expect people to want to fly en masse for a period still.
		
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There is that.  On a group chat yesterday with the group we are going to Valencia with, we mused on driving rather than flying..


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Easyjet have said that they will start up, not now incidentally, with the middle seat in aircraft row groups unoccupied. They will also put other measures in place in order to get things going again. How slowly will they be boarding aircraft? The Ryanair bloke will explode at taking longer than 3 1/2 minutes to fill a plane 

The head of Easyjet also pointed out that when they started flying again they did not expect to be that busy. They did not expect people to want to fly en masse for a period still.
		
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It'll be interesting to see what they do (if anything) with public transport. That sort of distancing might be possible with inter city trains, but definitely not with commuter services or tubes.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 16, 2020)

150 Romanian fruit pickers have just come to this country, not got a problem with this as everyone has to do what they think is best for their families. 
But it is a sad indictment of this country that appeals for local workers were not taken up, I know the pay will be very low but I would have thought young adults would have been glad to get out of the house and do some work


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## AmandaJR (Apr 16, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			150 Romanian fruit pickers have just come to this country, not got a problem with this as everyone has to do what they think is best for their families.
But it is a sad indictment of this country that appeals for local workers were not taken up, I know the pay will be very low but I would have thought young adults would have been glad to get out of the house and do some work
		
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I know when I thought about it (briefly!) the fact that usually they live on site for the period of the harvest wasn't remotely appealing. I wouldn't mind having a go (if my back could stand it) but only if it was a standard working day and I went home for a hot soak!


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## AmandaJR (Apr 16, 2020)

*NO WE DON'T KNOW WHEN RESTRICTIONS WILL BE LIFTED.*

For heaven's sake stop asking that flipping question. They'll be lifted when appropriate.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 16, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			150 Romanian fruit pickers have just come to this country, not got a problem with this as everyone has to do what they think is best for their families.
But it is a sad indictment of this country that appeals for local workers were not taken up, I know the pay will be very low but I would have thought young adults would have been glad to get out of the house and do some work
		
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There's been mixed messages about this... Early reports that there was interest from 'locals' turned into no there wasn't then I read/heard there was... Suspect it's a lot to do with being less than minimum wage payment...


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			There's been mixed messages about this... Early reports that there was interest from 'locals' turned into no there wasn't then I read/heard there was... Suspect it's a lot to do with being less than minimum wage payment...
		
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How legal is "less than the minimum wage?" I sincerely hope that if this is the case that someone has the wherewithal to take it to court. What a sad indictment on the UK, if this is the case.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 16, 2020)

It is illegal to pay less than minimum wage but maybe they pay nett of living costs as they have to stay on site?

Edit - just read and there is a Agricultutal Minimum Wage which is higher than the national rate in some areas.


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

Saw something which I dare say many people have seen. It revolved around who is the most susceptible, i.e. the older generation. It went something like, "if it was the younger generation that were more susceptible their parents would step in front of a bus to save them. At the very least they would stay in. Maybe the younger generation should consider that before they go out."

To be honest, I'd like to think that a lot of the reports are the usual media hype.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Saw something which I dare say many people have seen. It revolved around who is the most susceptible, i.e. the older generation. It went something like, "if it was the younger generation that were more susceptible their parents would step in front of a bus to save them. At the very least they would stay in. Maybe the younger generation should consider that before they go out."

To be honest, I'd like to think that a lot of the reports are the usual media hype.
		
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I think most, if not all of these posts are purely anecdotal. 

I see more older people ignoring social distancing when out shopping, but at the same time have seen my younger neighbours blatantly going out with friends more. 

Imo age is not a deciding factor for people's selfishness/disregard of the rules.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 16, 2020)

The news keeps showing young healthy people suffering... trying to counter the, it’s only certain groups affected. 

Perhaps it’s a bit simpler, those who are silly and those who are not with respect to risk taking. I suspect if your really silly you usually don’t get old.


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## upsidedown (Apr 16, 2020)

Mowing in Stafford today and lot more people on the streets than a normal mowing day , less traffic but definitely more folks walking, running


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 16, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Noticeably more people out for 'exercise' along my street today walking in 2s, 3s and 4s. Happens to be the warmest sunniest day for quite a while too.
Is that happening elsewhere?
		
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It has been for awhile, in the woods were I take the dogs is littered with people. Someone was caught procreating in there yesterday. Sometimes only ever see one or two dog walkers, most of the time nobody. Sort of spoils it for me really now. Wouldn’t mind getting in the car and getting away from people to be frank.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 16, 2020)

Interested to hear about the look into the disproportionate number of BAME deaths and infections https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-52292569 . Looking at the demographics, there is definitely a clear trend that Asian and males in particular have been the biggest percentage through our doors. Similarly New York has seen the Hispanics hit hardest so there has to be a way particular ethnic groups seem so susceptible


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## williamalex1 (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just don't understand how the schools could reopen a week or two after the next period of lockdown unless we have a solid testing regime in place for us all - or at least for all children.  That children who pick up the virus might not be affected is one thing - but they can still share it around and bring it home...

Sorry - don't get it.  what am I missing...?
		
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I was thinking much the same, but if everyone has been in isolation for 4 weeks they should be virus free


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



*NO WE DON'T KNOW WHEN RESTRICTIONS WILL BE LIFTED.*

For heaven's sake stop asking that flipping question. They'll be lifted when appropriate.
		
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Exactly
Blimey!
The first question, the very first one at the Daily briefing shows to me that these( all right, some, don't tar all etc ) journalists do not listen to the briefing because they are asking questions already answered in the briefing.
Or, they have listened, but still insist on their original question.
Raab clearly said about the continued lockdown and no anticipated change yet until there was further consideration based on future evidence.
They are showing themselves up


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 16, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Interested to hear about the look into the disproportionate number of BAME deaths and infections https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-52292569 . Looking at the demographics, there is definitely a clear trend that Asian and males in particular have been the biggest percentage through our doors. Similarly New York has seen the Hispanics hit hardest so there has to be a way particular ethnic groups seem so susceptible
		
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In Sweden you can see similar things, but where Swedish Somalis stand out with a disproportionate amount of deaths. Believe it to be 3-folded why; a lot of taxi drivers, catching it while working, large families across generations living in small flats, and also weak knowledge of Swedish to be able to follow news, public health advice etc.


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## richart (Apr 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



*NO WE DON'T KNOW WHEN RESTRICTIONS WILL BE LIFTED.*

For heaven's sake stop asking that flipping question. They'll be lifted when appropriate.
		
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Yes but Trump knows when in the US. Perhaps we could ask him when in the UK ?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 16, 2020)

richart said:



			Yes but Trump knows when in the US. Perhaps we could ask him when in the UK ?

Click to expand...

Easter as I recall


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly
Blimey!
The first question, the very first one at the Daily briefing shows to me that these( all right, some, don't tar all etc ) journalists do not listen to the briefing because they are asking questions already answered in the briefing.
Or, they have listened, but still insist on their original question.
Raab clearly said about the continued lockdown and no anticipated change yet until there was further consideration based on future evidence.
They are showing themselves up
		
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IMO they are simply asking the questions that many of the public want to hear an answer for.  I may be coping OK in lockdown - but many will be really struggling and just want the question asked - and want t hear an answer as soon as one starts to materialise.

I must also reflect upon the last time a plan was sought from the government - none of any substance was forthcoming as we were told that there was one but that we didn't need to know - subsequent events suggested that there might not have been much of a plan in place all that time.  In any case.  Some folks just need to have something - even simply a framework - to hang their hat on - give them some feeling of what must start to be evident for tings to start being relaxed.

Truth is I'm just playing Devil's Advocate on this.  I can see how difficult and dangerous it could be to disclose a 'plan'.  But the question should still be asked.


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## Ross61 (Apr 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I was thinking much the same, but if everyone has been in isolation for 4 weeks they should be virus free 

Click to expand...

Disregarding the people that don’t follow the rules for the moment, the are a lot of key workers going out and facing the public, then there are key workers like me that don’t face the public but still enter buildings where others are ( but not within2 meters) or have been. I have worked in 5 different work places this week and a lot of my colleagues have been in quite a few more.
 The official line at my work is that we can work within 2 meters of each other if the work is essential as long as we ask each other questions about our health first and not work up close for more than 15 minutes but can do it without PPE!
 Then there are the people working/ isolating at home that still can go to the supermarket and exercise.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 16, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Disregarding the people that don’t follow the rules for the moment, the are a lot of key workers going out and facing the public, then there are key workers like me that don’t face the public but still enter buildings where others are ( but not within2 meters) or have been. I have worked in 5 different work places this week and a lot of my colleagues have been in quite a few more.
The official line at my work is that we can work within 2 meters of each other if the work is essential as long as we ask each other questions about our health first and not work up close for more than 15 minutes but can do it without PPE!
Then there are the people working/ isolating at home that still can go to the supermarket and exercise.
		
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Exactly. We are dealing with infected people everyday and even with PPE there is an inherent risk. That's before you take into account people still shopping and not knowing who has it and whether it's on any surfaces.


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## Imurg (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			IMO they are simply asking the questions that many of the public want to hear an answer for.  I may be coping OK in lockdown - but many will be really struggling and just want the question asked - and want t hear an answer as soon as one starts to materialise.  
.
		
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But why ask a question when its completely obvious there isn't currently an answer..?
It's a waste of time, does nothing to quell any fears people may have, in fact it probably raises anxiety levels as the answer isnt "a week next Thursday ".
I actually dont knowingly they bother with thenbreifing.
Just release a statement - these questions and non answers cause more problems than they solve.


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			IMO they are simply asking the questions that many of the public want to hear an answer for.  I may be coping OK in lockdown - but many will be really struggling and just want the question asked - and want t hear an answer as soon as one starts to materialise.

I must also reflect upon the last time a plan was sought from the government - none of any substance was forthcoming as we were told that there was one but that we didn't need to know - subsequent events suggested that there might not have been much of a plan in place all that time.  In any case.  Some folks just need to have something - even simply a framework - to hang their hat on - give them some feeling of what must start to be evident for tings to start being relaxed.

Truth is I'm just playing Devil's Advocate on this.  I can see how difficult and dangerous it could be to disclose a 'plan'.  But the question should still be asked.
		
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You make a very valid point. Many Expats out here live in apartments, as do many Spanish. They often make the point that getting out with our restrictions is impossible, and some of them are climbing the walls.

Lets not forget that those of us with plenty of room, only two of us at home, or with decent outside space are quite privileged compared to others.


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## hovis (Apr 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			But why ask a question when its completely obvious there isn't currently an answer..?
It's a waste of time, does nothing to quell any fears people may have, in fact it probably raises anxiety levels as the answer isnt "a week next Thursday ".
I actually dont knowingly they bother with thenbreifing.
Just release a statement - these questions and non answers cause more problems than they solve.
		
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i actually turn off once they get to questions.      I think it will come to the point when no press can actually ask questions.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2020)

hovis said:



			i actually turn off once they get to questions.      I think it will come to the point when no press can actually ask questions.
		
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How the two experts manage to contain themselves in the face of such stupidity is beyond me. It's as if the reporters just like the sound of their own voice. At least Preston wasn't there gargling away for 5 mins.


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## bluewolf (Apr 16, 2020)

Forgive the question as I didn’t catch the briefing today. However, most of the questions I’ve heard recently weren’t about when the lockdown would end, but what it would look like when the end began (dreadfully structured sentence, but I hope you know what I mean). 

I’d be interested to know if there’s a plan in place when the lockdown begins to be lifted. Will it be certain shops and restaurants, but not pubs and gyms etc? Will it be a sudden lift followed by everyone partying like it’s 1999?


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I was thinking much the same, but if everyone has been in isolation for 4 weeks they should be virus free 

Click to expand...

In a multi occupancy, multi generational household (of which we have many, especially in the big cities) it can easily take over 4 weeks to work its way through. And that's without any interaction with the outside world (which there obviously is). The current policy might reduce spread, but if it carried on till next year I don't suppose the virus would go away unless it ran out of people to infect.


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## larmen (Apr 16, 2020)

Germany opening small stores 1st, 800 sqm or less. Maybe if that model works there it can be repeated here.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Forgive the question as I didn’t catch the briefing today. However, most of the questions I’ve heard recently weren’t about when the lockdown would end, but what it would look like when the end began (dreadfully structured sentence, but I hope you know what I mean).

I’d be interested to know if there’s a plan in place when the lockdown begins to be lifted. Will it be certain shops and restaurants, but not pubs and gyms etc? Will it be a sudden lift followed by everyone partying like it’s 1999?
		
Click to expand...

Jeepers, you tell me.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Forgive the question as I didn’t catch the briefing today. However, most of the questions I’ve heard recently weren’t about when the lockdown would end, but what it would look like when the end began (dreadfully structured sentence, but I hope you know what I mean).

I’d be interested to know if there’s a plan in place when the lockdown begins to be lifted. Will it be certain shops and restaurants, but not pubs and gyms etc? Will it be a sudden lift followed by everyone partying like it’s 1999?
		
Click to expand...

Your Laura Kunsberg and I claim my 50p. If you had seen it you'd know what I mean.

No plans yet however Ski Touring has opened up in Austria and one glacier resort opened up in Norway.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2020)

Germany, Denmark, Austria will all be lifting restrictions before us so we can watch how they do it and hopefully learn what works and what doesn't.


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Germany, Denmark, Austria will all be lifting restrictions before us so we can watch how they do it and hopefully learn what works and what doesn't.
		
Click to expand...

Seemed to be a bit of a jump in Germanys death figures today.


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Forgive the question as I didn’t catch the briefing today. However, most of the questions I’ve heard recently weren’t about when the lockdown would end, but what it would look like when the end began (dreadfully structured sentence, but I hope you know what I mean).

I’d be interested to know if there’s a plan in place when the lockdown begins to be lifted. Will it be certain shops and restaurants, but not pubs and gyms etc? Will it be a sudden lift followed by everyone partying like it’s 1999?
		
Click to expand...

I'd be surprised if we deviated far from the various approaches being rolled out on the continent at the moment.


Old Skier said:



			Your Laura Kunsberg and I claim my 50p. If you had seen it you'd know what I mean.

No plans yet however Ski Touring has opened up in Austria and one glacier resort opened up in Norway. 

Click to expand...

Does that mean huts are open, or just for day tours?


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## Old Skier (Apr 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'd be surprised if we deviated far from the various approaches being rolled out on the continent at the moment.

Does that mean huts are open, or just for day tours?
		
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I presume the huts but they are getting some flak from France and Italy who think it could take import emergency resources away from where it's needed. Picked it up on the Ski Chat Forum.


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## larmen (Apr 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'd be surprised if we deviated far from the various approaches being rolled out on the continent at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

Please start with the hairdressers :-(

(they staying closed in Germany, so no real hope there)


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## Imurg (Apr 16, 2020)

larmen said:



			Please start with the hairdressers :-(

(they staying closed in Germany, so no real hope there)
		
Click to expand...

Social distancing means it could be home clipping for a while yet.....


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## bluewolf (Apr 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Jeepers, you tell me.
		
Click to expand...

Why? Am I in charge now?

To be honest, you’ve managed obnoxious and facetious in one 4 word answer. That must be a forum record 😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Social distancing means it could be home clipping for a while yet.....
		
Click to expand...

For some it's not a long job is it?


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Why? Am I in charge now?

To be honest, you’ve managed obnoxious and facetious in one 4 word answer. That must be a forum record 😂
		
Click to expand...

Wow! Talk about prejudging based on a previous experience. Maybe I'm just a bit too gullible but I took it at face value.


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## bluewolf (Apr 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Wow! Talk about prejudging based on a previous experience. Maybe I'm just a bit too gullible but I took it at face value.
		
Click to expand...

You took “Jeepers” at face value? Really?

Ok. If Brian says that his question was 100% sincere then I’ll apologise. I know he’s not a liar.


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			You took “Jeepers” at face value? Really?

Ok. If Brian says that his question was 100% sincere then I’ll apologise. I know he’s not a liar.
		
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Isn't that the way all intelligent people make a point when they already know the answer?


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## bluewolf (Apr 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Isn't that the way all intelligent people make a point when they already know the answer? 

Click to expand...

I wouldn’t know 😉


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I presume the huts but they are getting some flak from France and Italy who think it could take import emergency resources away from where it's needed. Picked it up on the Ski Chat Forum.
		
Click to expand...

Despite causing outrage on another thread, I have to say that I wouldn't be in a rush to go touring. Huts are a breeding ground for all sorts of unpleasantness, especially if you get stuck for a few days. But my main worry would be getting half way up an ascent and being slowed down in an exposed spot by a possible onset of breathing difficulties/oxygen deficiency.
Not that I'll be encountering either of these scenarios this season.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			In a multi occupancy, multi generational household (of which we have many, especially in the big cities) it can easily take over 4 weeks to work its way through. And that's without any interaction with the outside world (which there obviously is). The current policy might reduce spread, but if it carried on till next year I don't suppose the virus would go away unless it ran out of people to infect.
		
Click to expand...

So,  me and the wife after at least 4 weeks of isolation and social distancing with absolutely no symptoms, we could still be contagious ?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			So,  me and the wife after at least 4 weeks of isolation and social distancing with absolutely no symptoms, we could still be contagious ?
		
Click to expand...

I would guess it depends how extreme your social distancing has been. If you've had no contact with the outside world in 4 weeks then there shouldn't be any possibility that you have the virus. If you've been out shopping, had anything delivered or been within 2m of anyone else then there's the possibility that you could have the virus.


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## Hobbit (Apr 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			So,  me and the wife after at least 4 weeks of isolation and social distancing with absolutely no symptoms, we could still be contagious ?
		
Click to expand...

I've tried social distancing from the wife for years. She still hasn't shook off the bad temper she's infected with.


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## Paperboy (Apr 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			So,  me and the wife after at least 4 weeks of isolation and social distancing with absolutely no symptoms, we could still be contagious ?
		
Click to expand...

Think he's talking about places with more then 4 people, across say 3 generations. One person gets it, 12 days into isolation the next gets it, another 7 days etc etc


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## williamalex1 (Apr 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've tried social distancing from the wife for years. She still hasn't shook off the bad temper she's infected with.
		
Click to expand...

It's been a while since we've been closer than 2 metres lol


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## pendodave (Apr 16, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			So,  me and the wife after at least 4 weeks of isolation and social distancing with absolutely no symptoms, we could still be contagious ?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I thought the rhetorical question that I replied to applied to the general population, not your specific household. Sometimes threads get lost in space


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## williamalex1 (Apr 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm sorry, I thought the rhetorical question that I replied to applied to the general population, not your specific household. Sometimes threads get lost in space
		
Click to expand...

No problem, sometimes I confuse and argue with myself.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've tried social distancing from the wife for years. She still hasn't shook off the bad temper she's infected with.
		
Click to expand...

One of the few benefits of being nearly deaf, or maybe try ear plugs, even my singing sounds almost in tune with them in.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Why? Am I in charge now?

To be honest, you’ve managed obnoxious and facetious in one 4 word answer. That must be a forum record 😂
		
Click to expand...

No, please!   I'm sure there's no sarcasm or offence meant here. The way I read  it , it's simply a phrase meaning, "who knows?"
That's all.. I'm sure we all understand your questions were rhetorical 😀


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## rosecott (Apr 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			It is illegal to pay less than minimum wage but maybe they pay nett of living costs as they have to stay on site?

Edit - just read and there is a Agricultutal Minimum Wage which is higher than the national rate in some areas.
		
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5Live aired interviews with some of the Romanians prior to boarding the flight. One said they would be paid £9 or £10 per hour which would be as much for 6 weeks work as they could earn at home in a year.


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## bluewolf (Apr 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, please!   I'm sure there's no sarcasm or offence meant here. The way I read  it , it's simply a phrase meaning, "who knows?"
That's all.. I'm sure we all understand your questions were rhetorical 😀
		
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Very possibly 👍
However, the questions weren’t really rhetorical. I missed the briefing so I was clarifying whether the questions were about when the lockdown would end or what the plan would be when the lockdown ended?
Following that, and more overt than the previous “implied” question was what that would look like? I can only assume that there is/are the basics of an exit plan. After all, the initial lockdown period would have ended by now, so I have to assume that there is an exit plan. I’m interested in how that would look. 

So, I’m not sure what I could tell my old friend SR (not being sarcastic by the way. I have a good relationship with Socket). It was 2 genuine questions that (IMO) deserved a better response.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 17, 2020)

Disappointing numbers of Covid admissions between leaving yesterday and this morning - as I suggested perhaps we've not seen a peak (at least locally) but definitely going against the trend and details being given by the experts


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## MegaSteve (Apr 17, 2020)

rosecott said:



			5Live aired interviews with some of the Romanians prior to boarding the flight. One said they would be paid £9 or £10 per hour which would be as much for 6 weeks work as they could earn at home in a year.
		
Click to expand...

One of the last locations of my working days was Park Royal... Several of the neighbouring businesses had mostly employees of East European origin... Their favourite topic of conversation, whilst having a cuppa with them on the communal lawns, was their exploitation in the UK... Several of the guys in the bakery had done crop picking and they always saved their favourite ancient Anglo Saxon words when advising of their thoughts on the gang bosses... They certainly never saw anything like a minimum wage or working conditions...

And, if anybody is interested, my advice to them was always if they felt they were being exploited by an employer or a landlord or even the taxman was to start with getting their rear ends to citizens advice...


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## Captainron (Apr 17, 2020)

I’m spending more on DIY than I ever imagined.....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 17, 2020)

Ridiculous behaviour on Westminster Bridge last night for the 8pm Clap for the NHS.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250864574984867856


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## Crazyface (Apr 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Ridiculous behaviour on Westminster Bridge last night for the 8pm Clap for the NHS.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250864574984867856

Click to expand...

Lets just lock down London. Looking at this the brain dead are all down there.


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## hovis (Apr 17, 2020)

China said it under reported the deaths by 50%.  but it wasn't a cover up 🤷‍♂️


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Ridiculous behaviour on Westminster Bridge last night for the 8pm Clap for the NHS.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250864574984867856

Click to expand...

Not sure the blue light brigade will be doing that again.


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

hovis said:



			China said it under reported the deaths by 50%.  but it wasn't a cover up 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Have you tried to count in Cantonese


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## IanM (Apr 17, 2020)

It is now getting serious!!

My mum (80) rings my sister last night in quite a state.  Sis eventually gets to the bottom line which is......................... mum is out of mint humbugs!   

My wife is current on the phone to her mum (81) and is getting serious earache about which set of lottery numbers to do in which draw on-line as m-i-l isn't allowed to the shops to get them herself.

Oh my.....


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## Wolf (Apr 17, 2020)

IanM said:



			It is now getting serious!!

My mum (80) rings my sister last night in quite a state.  Sis eventually gets to the bottom line which is......................... mum is out of mint humbugs!

My wife is current on the phone to her mum (81) and is getting serious earache about which set of lottery numbers to do in which draw on-line as m-i-l isn't allowed to the shops to get them herself.

Oh my.....
		
Click to expand...

We've had calls this morning as well.

MiL rang Mrs Wolf to complain about her partner who has spent the last 3 weeks building model trucks and steam engines to prevent boredom as he is in 2 of the high risk categories apparently its not fair he gets to do something he's interested in and she can't go shopping which she enjoys doing 🙄.

Then we had a Facetime call from my parents and we cracked up, bear in mind my parents are both mid 70s, my mum was bored so has died her hair pink for a bit of fun, not only that they have set up my old Wii and are racing each other on Mario Kart and wanted some tips 😂.

My Dad has also set up my old room as a gym with a cross trainer and a weights bench of mine that I have had stored in their garage for years. It appears my parents are quite enjoying lockdown.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 17, 2020)

I thought about dying my hair pink... but nobody would notice 😂😎


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## Wolf (Apr 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I thought about dying my hair pink... but nobody would notice 😂😎
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you could paint it like the blue man group 🧞‍♂️

I think the best part of her hair dying is she clearly got bored pre their latest online shop as she ordered it specifically to do it 😂. Didn't even know my mum liked pink. I guess ita a new slant on a blue rinse...


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## hovis (Apr 17, 2020)

I just got my clippers in the post.  I told the wife to give me a number 8 on top and a 4 back and sides.  
I now have a number 4 all over!!!😣


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## Wolf (Apr 17, 2020)

hovis said:



			I just got my clippers in the post.  I told the wife to give me a number 8 on top and a 4 back and sides. 
I now have a number 4 all over!!!😣
		
Click to expand...

I feel your pain, my wife got the clippers out yesterday. My only words we just be careful and don't go near the beard. I've ended up with a No6 on top, a No1 at the sides and you guessed it she went to low and got the beard with the No1, so I've had to completely buzz cut that to 😭

Only way I can describe it is I look like a Marine. Sadly not the former Royal Marine I am, but a US Marine with a crap hair cut. OORAH! 

Either that or I look like a 12 year old boy I'm not sure what's worse.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I feel your pain, my wife got the clippers out yesterday. My only words we just be careful and don't go near the beard. I've ended up with a No6 on top, a No1 at the sides and you guessed it she went to low and got the beard with the No1, so I've had to completely buzz cut that to 😭

Only way I can describe it is I look like a Marine. Sadly not the former Royal Marine I am, but a US Marine with a crap hair cut. OORAH!

Either that or I look like a 12 year old boy I'm not sure what's worse.
		
Click to expand...




Like Action Man then 😂😂


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## Wolf (Apr 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 30011

Like Action Man then 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

God no i'd be happier with that at least I'd still have a beard then 😂

Its more akin to this Jar head


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 17, 2020)

An old lady in sheltered accommodation in Edinburgh, got a visit from police who told her they had an anonymous phone call saying her son was visiting her.
Thy told her they would fine her if they received another call leaving her distressed.
When did police get the power to fine anyone on the basis of an anonymous phone call.

Another point I had to take my daughter to hospital this morning to get blood samples taken.
The hospital had stringent procedures in place.
I'm walking into the department and a hospital worker a cleaner I think walks besides us then stops at a lift and asks us if we want to go up in the lift with her.
I told her the last place I'd want to be is in a lift with strangers at present.


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## drdel (Apr 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I thought about dying my hair pink... but nobody would notice 😂😎
		
Click to expand...

What is this thing called 'Hair' - of which you speak?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 17, 2020)

hovis said:



			i actually turn off once they get to questions.      I think it will come to the point when no press can actually ask questions.
		
Click to expand...

You should try watching the Scottish digital version of FMQT.....as some wit said three clueless Unionist politicians copying the Two Ronnie's Mastermind sketch but their subject being...….'asking the last question that has already been answered'.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2020)

Mrs Hogie just received notification that, as much as her charity helpline provides very helpful support to the NHS - they can't keep everyone on the helpline in place - and so she's been furloughed.  Her employer asked - she offered - they accepted.  She's OK as she knows that the charity desperately needs to cut outgoings to the minimum and so only a core of the most experiences nurses will be kept on.  

She gets that, but she is a bit down about it as she felt that she was 'doing her bit' for her previous colleagues in NHS breast cancer teams across the UK.  But hey.  Her super-boss assured her that, though she was new to the team - she was an important and very valued part of that team.  Which has helped.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 17, 2020)

Jeez.........just found out that one of my wife's cancer support nurses has cancer herself but is still working whilst having treatment.
What a brave girl.


----------



## ferenezejohn (Apr 17, 2020)

Remdesivir, anti-viral trial reports rapid recoveries for severe hospitalised coronvirus patients with nearly all  discharged within a week and only 2 deaths out of 125
Is there hope on the horizon.


----------



## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 30011

Like Action Man then 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

No - you didn't hear properly, he's a Royal, spend their time on luxury cruises


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 17, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			An old lady in sheltered accommodation in Edinburgh, got a visit from police who told her they had an anonymous phone call saying her son was visiting her.
Thy told her they would fine her if they received another call leaving her distressed.
When did police get the power to fine anyone on the basis of an anonymous phone call.[/B]

Another point I had to take my daughter to hospital this morning to get blood samples taken.
The hospital had stringent procedures in place.
I'm walking into the department and a hospital worker a cleaner I think walks besides us then stops at a lift and asks us if we want to go up in the lift with her.
I told her the last place I'd want to be is in a lift with strangers at present.
		
Click to expand...

That is told as if hundred per cent accurate. I doubt it is, because, as you say, the police could not fine
her without evidence. What you describe is not evidence.
More importantly, the person offending is her son, is it not? ( if true), so it would be him who commits the offence, not her..

She may well be distressed at the police warning her that her son may be fined if he does visit her unnecessarily, - a more likely version.
But nobody knows what really happened but the officers and the lady.


----------



## Crazyface (Apr 17, 2020)

I was still struggling with the test test test thing until yesterday during a discussion about it, it sunk in. If you test as many as possible you can find out who HAS THE VIRUS AND SEND THEM INTO QUARANTINE., and therefore stop them from infecting others. Sorry, just had to post that in case anyone else is struggling with this idea.


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You should try watching the Scottish digital version of FMQT.....as some wit said three clueless Unionist politicians copying the Two Ronnie's Mastermind sketch but their subject being...….'asking the last question that has already been answered'.

Click to expand...

Bit like the silly SNP member on the Health Select Committee who had to be reminded that the NHS in Scotland was devolved and the responsibility of the Scottish government. So it appears there are a few up north who should stay away from politics


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## drdel (Apr 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs Hogie just received notification that, as much as her charity helpline provides very helpful support to the NHS - they can't keep everyone on the helpline in place - and so she's been furloughed.  Her employer asked - she offered - they accepted.  She's OK as she knows that the charity desperately needs to cut outgoings to the minimum and so only a core of the most experiences nurses will be kept on. 

She gets that, but she is a bit down about it as she felt that she was 'doing her bit' for her previous colleagues in NHS breast cancer teams across the UK.  But hey.  Her super-boss assured her that, though she was new to the team - she was an important and very valued part of that team.  Which has helped.
		
Click to expand...

Would she not like to volunteer?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 17, 2020)

drdel said:



			Would she not like to volunteer?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure she could as furlough rules very strict about not doing any work for your employer whilst on furlough. Could volunteer elsewhere of course but my furlough terms say I must be contactable during my normal working hours...which may be rubbish!


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## bobmac (Apr 17, 2020)

The folks from Michican are getting restless




And this lady wants an end to the lockdown so she can have her hair done

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52304993


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## rosecott (Apr 17, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The folks from Michican are getting restless

View attachment 30023


And this lady wants an end to the lockdown so she can have her hair done

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52304993

Click to expand...

All men - and all facing you so you can't see their red necks.


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2020)

And half of them have a facemask or scarf across their mouth...so what are they afraid of...?


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## bluewolf (Apr 17, 2020)

Imurg said:



			And half of them have a facemask or scarf across their mouth...so what are they afraid of...?
		
Click to expand...

Muslamic death rays.....


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 17, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Remdesivir, anti-viral trial reports rapid recoveries for severe hospitalised coronvirus patients with nearly all  discharged within a week and only 2 deaths out of 125
Is there hope on the horizon.
		
Click to expand...

Let's hope the reports are right. It would be brilliant. There was a report in Press that much , much work was being done in labs etc on testing existing drugs and efforts to develop a vaccine all over the developed world.
Hopefully someone will find something!


----------



## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2020)




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## Jamesbrown (Apr 17, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 30025

so no lockdown then? 

Click to expand...


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## DRW (Apr 17, 2020)

*UK government: Do not book summer holidays*
Downing St has said that government guidelines and official foreign office advice "do not allow for people going on holiday".
The prime minister's spokesman said that travelling within the UK for holidays was "not something which the current guidelines allow for" and Foreign Office advice "continues to be that you should go abroad for essential travel only".
Earlier Transport Secretary Grant Shapps suggested people should not book summer holidays for later this year.p
		
Click to expand...

Anyone thinking of booking up holidays for this year ? Anyone booked up a holiday for this year since the crisis broke ? (decided to edit it slightly as read wrong)


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## Fish (Apr 17, 2020)

As of 9am 17 April, 438,991 tests have concluded, with 21,328 tests on 16 April. 

341,551 people have been tested of which 108,692 tested positive. 

As of 5pm on 16 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 14,576 have sadly died.

That's up by 847 from 13,729 the day before.


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## Wolf (Apr 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			No - you didn't hear properly, he's a Royal, spend their time on luxury cruises 

Click to expand...

Jealousy will get you nowhere, it especially won't get you bunk in a nice RFA long haul water taxi 😉


----------



## richart (Apr 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've tried social distancing from the wife for years. She still hasn't shook off the bad temper she's infected with.
		
Click to expand...

Be careful Bri. Mrs H might get so bored she starts reading the forum.


----------



## User62651 (Apr 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Ridiculous behaviour on Westminster Bridge last night for the 8pm Clap for the NHS.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1250864574984867856

Click to expand...

This was very disappointing, no excuse at all despite the goodwill meaning. Just crazy.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251056356439863296


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## GB72 (Apr 17, 2020)

Out of interest, has anyone seen any figures on how Sweden are doing with their approach to this. I have not seen reports of their more relaxed approach being a total car crash and would have thought that would be all over the press if it had gone horribly wrong. Not trying to say it is better, we are wrong etc but Sweden appear to be one of the few taking a different approach to this and it would be an interesting comparison to see how that is going.


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## Hobbit (Apr 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has anyone seen any figures on how Sweden are doing with their approach to this. I have not seen reports of their more relaxed approach being a total car crash and would have thought that would be all over the press if it had gone horribly wrong. Not trying to say it is better, we are wrong etc but Sweden appear to be one of the few taking a different approach to this and it would be an interesting comparison to see how that is going.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has anyone seen any figures on how Sweden are doing with their approach to this. I have not seen reports of their more relaxed approach being a total car crash and would have thought that would be all over the press if it had gone horribly wrong. Not trying to say it is better, we are wrong etc but Sweden appear to be one of the few taking a different approach to this and it would be an interesting comparison to see how that is going.
		
Click to expand...

For where they are in the "league" of total cases, they have way more deaths than any country 5 places either side and bigger numbers than Norway and Denmark put together....
Does that suggest their strategy hasn't really worked..?


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## Foxholer (Apr 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has anyone seen any figures on how Sweden are doing with their approach to this. I have not seen reports of their more relaxed approach being a total car crash and would have thought that would be all over the press if it had gone horribly wrong. Not trying to say it is better, we are wrong etc but Sweden appear to be one of the few taking a different approach to this and it would be an interesting comparison to see how that is going.
		
Click to expand...

As I posted a while ago...not well compared to Norway and Denmark. Surprising correlation of tests and deaths per Million popuation within the 3!


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

Testing capacity outstripped demand, who's idea was it to set up drive in centers and the locations.


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## IainP (Apr 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has anyone seen any figures on how Sweden are doing with their approach to this. I have not seen reports of their more relaxed approach being a total car crash and would have thought that would be all over the press if it had gone horribly wrong. Not trying to say it is better, we are wrong etc but Sweden appear to be one of the few taking a different approach to this and it would be an interesting comparison to see how that is going.
		
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Can pop over here..
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/the-virus-anybody-else-done-the-maths.104661/post-2154322


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## User62651 (Apr 17, 2020)

Imurg said:



			For where they are in the "league" of total cases, they have way more deaths than any country 5 places either side and bigger numbers than Norway and Denmark put together....
Does that suggest their strategy hasn't really worked..?
		
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Could be argued that as long as their health service and hospitals have coped then they have been right to just isolate the vulnerable as they will get more phase 1 infections now and less infection phases later on when other countries are trying to lift lockdowns. Herd immunity happens much quicker. With a smaller population and not being a global hub probably helps too.
Easy to forget the lockdowns only delay infections to allow hospitals to cope, not stop them longer term. Unless a vaccine arrives quick their approach maybe has logic.
Sweden will have maintained their economy better than others too.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 17, 2020)

Tfl officially starting to look at furlonging staff who are 

Non operational 
Where their departments work has either stoped or dried up 
Those shielding 
Those long term sick

All wages will be paid in full so they don't lose money personally 

Every 4 weeks it's costing us 600 million I believe I read somewhere so they got to make cost saving measures for now 

Fair enough


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## Mudball (Apr 17, 2020)

I woke up at 2am this morning..  cold sweat... thinking about job, house and the safety of the family.   Could not go back to sleep till about 5pm.   This is indeed taking over our life.    Effing depressing.  I am sure there is an increase in calls to our mental helplines.   The bleeping reality is that there is no one who can provide any real solution - simply because no one really knows what is going to happen.  At best everyone will say 'it will be alright'.  

Sorry, this may feel like a cop out, but it is playing on my mind.   Anyone else feeling this pain?


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## DanFST (Apr 17, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems to me folk are primed to kick off over the dozy handfuls that think it's OK to take a day trip to the seaside... But, remain ambivalent to seemingly thousands of arrivals, from overseas, ,being let loose with little or no checks ...
		
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I think it's fine. If they have it, they can't spread it rampantly due to the lockdown and we want people to become infected we just need space for them in hospital if they need it. 

Realistically they are just as likely to get it in Tescos, it's here en masse now.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 17, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I think it's fine. If they have it, they can't spread it rampantly due to the lockdown and we want people to become infected we just need space for them in hospital if they need it.

Realistically they are just as likely to get it in Tescos, it's here en masse now.
		
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To be perfectly honest Dan as I fall in the at risk category I'd sooner not get it... And it's, probably why I 've been avoiding Tesco like the plague 😉😕...


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## Slime (Apr 17, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			To be perfectly honest Dan as I fall in the at risk category I'd sooner not get it... And it's, probably why *I've been avoiding Tesco like the plague *😉😕...
		
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Went to a Tesco this morning, not good, not good at all.
Some of their customers are just bloody idiots.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2020)

heck - Sharma leading the briefing and waffling and not answering the questions as normal - he is very unconvincing and frankly does nothing for the government or their handling of the crisis.  Ban him to back office.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I woke up at 2am this morning..  cold sweat... thinking about job, house and the safety of the family.   Could not go back to sleep till about 5pm.   This is indeed taking over our life.    Effing depressing.  I am sure there is an increase in calls to our mental helplines.   The bleeping reality is that there is no one who can provide any real solution - simply because no one really knows what is going to happen.  At best everyone will say 'it will be alright'. 

Sorry, this may feel like a cop out, but it is playing on my mind.   Anyone else feeling this pain?
		
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No I’m not thankfully but I certainly feel your pain and where your coming from.
I really do worry about how some people are coping and hope we can all come out the other side relatively unharmed.
I suppose worrying will also not help but whatever your situation I hope it all works out.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 17, 2020)

Slime said:



			Went to a Tesco this morning, not good, not good at all.
Some of their customers are just bloody idiots.
		
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Tesco in Taunton has been superb during this lockdown so much better than normal shopping


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I woke up at 2am this morning..  cold sweat... thinking about job, house and the safety of the family.   Could not go back to sleep till about 5pm.   This is indeed taking over our life.    Effing depressing.  I am sure there is an increase in calls to our mental helplines.   The bleeping reality is that there is no one who can provide any real solution - simply because no one really knows what is going to happen.  At best everyone will say 'it will be alright'.  

Sorry, this may feel like a cop out, but it is playing on my mind.   Anyone else feeling this pain?
		
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I had a wobble about a week and a half ago. Worried about work, the impact that would have on my family going forward. Oddly enough not at all worried about the virus itself. I'm not a materialistic person, it was a worry about basics, house, bills, food etc. It wasn't rational, company isn't going to go pop overnight,  but for that one day it was quite overwhelming and I kept filling up at work. Not had a repeat thankfully, although I am permanently anxious, haven't truly relaxed since this all kicked off. 

In essence, no you are not alone.


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## Imurg (Apr 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I woke up at 2am this morning..  cold sweat... thinking about job, house and the safety of the family.   Could not go back to sleep till about 5pm.   This is indeed taking over our life.    Effing depressing.  I am sure there is an increase in calls to our mental helplines.   The bleeping reality is that there is no one who can provide any real solution - simply because no one really knows what is going to happen.  At best everyone will say 'it will be alright'. 

Sorry, this may feel like a cop out, but it is playing on my mind.   Anyone else feeling this pain?
		
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Definitely not alone Vinesh....a few wobbles are normal.
As I posted yesterday, I'm far from convinced I'll, be able to resume work until SD is removed completely.
It's a waiting game....someone up on high will, eventually,  make a decision on driving instruction and I'll go with whatever is decided. But if the Govt can't/won't prop me up until then I may need to consider my options. Not something I'm looking forward to...


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## Hobbit (Apr 17, 2020)

Wobbled 2 days in. It was all about our children. Will they be ok? One of them is very much in the at risk group. Not sure when we'll get to see any of them again, which isn't helping.
A bit of community work, volunteering, helps but we'd love to get outside our gate together and go for a walk. We're 100m from open countryside but Spanish lockdown is very restricting.


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

Judging by the amount of PPE reporters are using it's not surprising  theres a shortage. BBC last night went through at least 3 sets visiting 3 london hospitals a d he was visiting more today.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 17, 2020)

Just wish someone will provide a definitive answer on whether to wear a mask or not... Still confusing/differing messages to be found...


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## hovis (Apr 17, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Just wish someone will provide a definitive answer on whether to wear a mask or not... Still confusing/differing messages to be found...
		
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the answer is clear.  yes it's better to wear one but don't because they'll be non left for the NHS to use. opinion of course


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Just wish someone will provide a definitive answer on whether to wear a mask or not... Still confusing/differing messages to be found...
		
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If you've got one then wear it, it cant do you any harm.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 17, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52321378 

From what I have been told a surgical mask is next to useless.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2020)

Why are we not testing to our capacity...something else I just don't get...


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you've got one then wear it, it cant do you any harm.
		
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PPE not used with care can be just as dangerous as no PPE. That includes masks.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I feel your pain, my wife got the clippers out yesterday. My only words we just be careful and don't go near the beard. I've ended up with a No6 on top, a No1 at the sides and you guessed it she went to low and got the beard with the No1, so I've had to completely buzz cut that to 😭

Only way I can describe it is I look like a Marine. Sadly not the former Royal Marine I am, but a US Marine with a crap hair cut. OORAH!

Either that or I look like a 12 year old boy I'm not sure what's worse.
		
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You've got to be quick on your feet to take the mick out of a Booties haircut.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why are we not testing to our capacity...something else I just don't get...
		
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Because in my opinion the target was never achievable


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why are we not testing to our capacity...something else I just don't get...
		
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NHS didn't take up much and I suspect some of the drive through locations.


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because in my opinion the target was never achievable
		
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Target might be achievable but nobody seems to be taking the offer up. Target and tests are two different things.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			PPE not used with care can be just as dangerous as no PPE. That includes masks.
		
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When I say 'wear it' I do mean properly 😉


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## pendodave (Apr 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			NHS didn't take up much and I suspect some of the drive through locations.
		
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 Because they are regional centres, many nhs staff workers face an hour each way trips to get to them. There was an article in the Graun yesterday about how underused the facilities are (mainly for this reason). Also a discussion about the reluctance to offer large numbers of local facilities versus a small number of big ones.  I'd recommend anyone who's interested to seek it out, as I'm not sure that I can competently summarise it.


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## User62651 (Apr 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52321378

From what I have been told a surgical mask is next to useless.
		
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You'd likely need wear goggles too to cover eyes as the tear duct links to nasal area.
Masks need to be face fitted, the guys that do chemical spraying have to have one person in the squad to do the mixing up of the chemical into solution and he/she has to be corectly face fitted and cannot have a beard. 
Therefore I'd agree the masks are ineffective at prevention but they might just help if you are already infected and so stop your spittle from a cough hitting someone else.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Because they are regional centres, many nhs staff workers face an hour each way trips to get to them. There was an article in the Graun yesterday about how underused the facilities are (mainly for this reason). Also a discussion about the reluctance to offer large numbers of local facilities versus a small number of big ones.  I'd recommend anyone who's interested to seek it out, as I'm not sure that I can competently summarise it.
		
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This is surely mad - if not scandalous - there are NHS and other health care workers out their self-isolating because of potential infection either of themselves or of a close family member - and desperately in need of testing for the virus and we can't organise things to get those folks tested?  They can do 36,000 a day - but at the moment are only doing 25,000 a day?

And of all minsters the government could put up at the moment they choose to put up the frankly hapless Alok Sharma to field questions on this - and of course he doesn't answer when asked.  Not good at all.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is surely mad - if not scandalous - there are NHS and other health care workers out their self-isolating because of potential infection either of themselves or of a close family member - and desperately in need of testing for the virus and we can't organise things to get those folks tested?  They can do 36,000 a day - but at the moment are only doing 25,000 a day?

And of all minsters the government could put up at the moment they choose to put up the frankly hapless Alok Sharma to field questions on this - and of course he doesn't answer when asked.  Not good at all.
		
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You dont seem enamoured with anyone they put up. Not surprising though, is it?


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Because they are regional centres, many nhs staff workers face an hour each way trips to get to them. There was an article in the Graun yesterday about how underused the facilities are (mainly for this reason). Also a discussion about the reluctance to offer large numbers of local facilities versus a small number of big ones.  I'd recommend anyone who's interested to seek it out, as I'm not sure that I can competently summarise it.
		
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Not one in the SW as far as I can see.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is surely mad - if not scandalous - there are NHS and other health care workers out their self-isolating because of potential infection either of themselves or of a close family member - and desperately in need of testing for the virus and we can't organise things to get those folks tested?  They can do 36,000 a day - but at the moment are only doing 25,000 a day?

And of all minsters the government could put up at the moment they choose to put up the frankly hapless Alok Sharma to field questions on this - and of course he doesn't answer when asked.  Not good at all.
		
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Sorry but you come on here daily and criticise how each minister perform. They are not going to answer questions directly especially when the answers don't fit the messages they are trying to convey. It wouldn't matter which party and politician they put on, the result would be the same. If you are really that offended by their lack of clarity and question answering after such a period of time, why not skip the briefing and get the highlights on a news channel of your choice or via the internet


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont seem enamoured with anyone they put up. Not surprising though, is it?
		
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He was poor and completely unable to understand the questions asked, even the good one.


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## bobmac (Apr 17, 2020)

Some people just like to complain


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## Golfmmad (Apr 17, 2020)

Well I thought he was OK, I didn't watch it until the end but what I did see he was self assured and answered every question   confidently and clearly.
And its not a competition is it?


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## Wolf (Apr 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You've got to be quick on your feet to take the mick out of a Booties haircut.
		
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Probably why nobody told i look a knob. 😂


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 17, 2020)

Imurg said:



			And half of them have a facemask or scarf across their mouth...so what are they afraid of...?
		
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Is it a public service to reduce the spread of BS?


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## Old Skier (Apr 17, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Probably why nobody told i look a knob. 😂
		
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You know it's so


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## BrianM (Apr 17, 2020)

Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.


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## fundy (Apr 17, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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get well soon Brian


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## AmandaJR (Apr 17, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Get well soon.


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## Mudball (Apr 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I had a wobble about a week and a half ago. Worried about work, the impact that would have on my family going forward. Oddly enough not at all worried about the virus itself. I'm not a materialistic person, it was a worry about basics, house, bills, food etc. It wasn't rational, company isn't going to go pop overnight,  but for that one day it was quite overwhelming and I kept filling up at work. Not had a repeat thankfully, although I am permanently anxious, haven't truly relaxed since this all kicked off. 

In essence, no you are not alone.
		
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Tnx guys.. I am the same.. I am talking basic bills. Already got my mortgage holiday.. all cuts take time. 

I agree company won’t go pop overnight and already we have decided to put some measures in. Went into a call today to secure some work with a client. Usually I would be very clear on our red lines in terms of negotiation position. But those lines are blurred as we need all the work to secure our people. Equally I know the client is in the same position!! What a effing strange world. 

This is not a race to get a new Rolex for deal of the year, but down to survival of the family, teams and their family. I know I sound dramatic, and this might be just voices in my head.  

Today I got a letter from BMW cancelling our car because they don’t have a view on when they can deliver it. It almost brought tears into my eyes - of Joy!! Never have I been so happy to not have a set of new shiny wheels. 

I am sure we will all come out of this and in 6-8 months no one will remember it .. we probably make a ‘ I survived CV19’ t-shirt  ... but the journey to that point is surely painful

Edit... pl ignore, I must be having an off day and have to let off steam .. thanks for listening


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## Fish (Apr 17, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Stay strong fella 👍💙


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## Stuart_C (Apr 17, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Stay strong Bri, rest, keep hydrated and try and get some good nutrients into you. 

If you need to talk just shout out mate👍🏻


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He was poor and completely unable to understand the questions asked, even the good one.
		
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Thankyou


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont seem enamoured with anyone they put up. Not surprising though, is it?
		
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That is factually simply not true.  I have no criticisms of Hancock (though he seems worn out), Sunak and Johnson when they are leading the briefings.  Raab is getting a better and is doing OK now; and Robert Jenrick does OK - as did Brandon Lewis (I think he did one).  Gove and Patel are just themselves,  I have no expectations above what we know of them.

So saying I am not enamoured with anyone they put up is simply not true.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He was poor and completely unable to understand the questions asked, even the good one.
		
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Maybe it was due to the questions being the normal standard of asking the blatantly obvious or blatantly impossible.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is factually simply not true.  I have no criticisms of Hancock (though he seems worn out), Sunak and Johnson when they are leading the briefings.  Raab is getting a better and is doing OK now; and Robert Jenrick does OK - as did Brandon Lewis (I think he did one).  Gove and Patel are just themselves,  I have no expectations above what we know of them.

So saying I am not enamoured with anyone they put up is simply not true.
		
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You've just painted them as either worn out, OK, room for improvement or rubbish 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Hope you start to feel better soon.


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## IainP (Apr 17, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Best wishes


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## Hobbit (Apr 17, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Hope you escape soon. Take care.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is factually simply not true.  I have no criticisms of Hancock (though he seems worn out), Sunak and Johnson when they are leading the briefings.  Raab is getting a better and is doing OK now; and Robert Jenrick does OK - as did Brandon Lewis (I think he did one).  Gove and Patel are just themselves,  I have no expectations above what we know of them.

So saying I am not enamoured with anyone they put up is simply not true.
		
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Come on. The last words were "not good at all"  You weren't commenting on what he said, you were commenting on how he said it, I.e. His performance.
These briefings are not stage acts, for people to clap or boo at.
They are informative. Whether the personality of the chap doing it is to ones liking shouldn't come into it. The subject matter is too important and serious for that.
As for the journos, whose role you readily support, I am so peed off with them. Their motives seem quite clear to me. Trip up the Government if you can, then my Editor will give me some brownie points.


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## Hobbit (Apr 17, 2020)

Near neighbours have it. He'd been to hospital for something that couldn't wait. Been home a week and took ill. Confirmed tonight by the mayor on the village FB page.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Near neighbours have it. He'd been to hospital for something that couldn't wait. Been home a week and took ill. Confirmed tonight by the mayor on the village FB page.
		
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Unfortunatly we hear this time and again, someone goes into hospital for a non covid matter and then catches it in hospital.  So sad.


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## drdel (Apr 17, 2020)

Remember the Government has TARGET to get testing capacity to 100k. The number of tests conducted is a function of demand. The aim is to reduce transmission and thus the need to test. So  if the number of tests stay below capacity that's a good thing and blaming the Government and its advisors for not reaching 100,000 rather misses the point.

With the assumption that anyone who needs a test has access to it.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			Remember the Government has TARGET to get testing capacity to 100k. The number of tests conducted is a function of demand. The aim is to reduce transmission and thus the need to test. So  if the number of tests stay below capacity that's a good thing and blaming the Government and its advisors for not reaching 100,000 rather misses the point.

With the assumption that anyone who needs a test has access to it.
		
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Only if you're not contact tracing. Identifying people with mild symptoms or who are asymptomatic and then locating and testing people they've been in contact with and isolating the positives early would easily eat up the 100k capacity.


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## Slab (Apr 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			PPE not used with care can be just as dangerous as no PPE. That includes masks.
		
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Unless it's ever more dangerous to wear a mask than not, then wear em of you've got em surely


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2020)

Pouring with rain outside...think I'll go for a walk to cheer myself up.....


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## MegaSteve (Apr 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Pouring with rain outside...think I'll go for a walk to cheer myself up.....

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Actually thinking the same myself... Might be quite therapeutic/cleansing...
Now, do I put the waterproofs on or not ...


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Unfortunatly we hear this time and again, someone goes into hospital for a non covid matter and then catches it in hospital.  So sad.
		
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my neighbour went to hospital with suspected sepsis,  got discharged with pneumonia to be treated at home.  he found two days later he was positive for covid too.   the doctora said he was too week for hospital treatment and died last week.   all happened very fast.


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## NearHull (Apr 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			my neighbour went to hospital with suspected sepsis,  got discharged with pneumonia to be treated at home.  he found two days later he was positive for covid too.   the doctora said he was too week for hospital treatment and died last week.   all happened very fast.
		
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Its the apparent rapid decline that occurs in some patients that is quite frightening to me.


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

NearHull said:



			Its the apparent rapid decline that occurs in some patients that is quite frightening to me.
		
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very frightening.  I was talking to him two days before and he was able to stand and easily hold a conversation with me through the window for 10 minutes.  when i dropped of his shopping he was able to carry his bags to the kitchen too.    he said he'll pay me next week 😩


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2020)

If they had bought them from Amazon at least they could have got their money back.

https://news784.com/coronavirus/uk-bought-2-million-covid-19-tests-kits-in-china-which-did-not-work/


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## Slime (Apr 18, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Wishing you better sooner.


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## Mudball (Apr 18, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Day 8 stuck in the hotel room, going crazy today, my mind is playing a lot of games.
Test results in late this afternoon, no surprise I’ve tested positive for COVID 19.
Still no energy and just generally feel like crap.
Will be glad to get back to some normality.
		
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Stay strong Big B.. you will get thru.. atleast you are in a place that won’t infect others.  You are playing your part. Having lived in hotels as part of being a road warrior, I know it can be a golden cage. 
Think of it as if you are playing behind a set of slow play 4-ballers who won’t let you pass. 

(On that note, which forumer would you see in that four ball)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on. The last words were "not good at all"  You weren't commenting on what he said, you were commenting on how he said it, I.e. His performance.
These briefings are not stage acts, for people to clap or boo at.
They are informative. Whether the personality of the chap doing it is to ones liking shouldn't come into it. The subject matter is too important and serious for that.
As for the journos, whose role you readily support, I am so peed off with them. Their motives seem quite clear to me. Trip up the Government if you can, then my Editor will give me some brownie points.
		
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It’s all about building public confidence and understanding.  Every minister leading the briefing will know the questions they are likely to be asked and so they should all be able to give a clear consistent answer and not seem to be evasive or indecisive.  The journalists keep asking the same questions as they are the key questions, and we should know the answers, and the answers from day to day should be consistent and reflect the plans and actions that the government is taking. We should expect nothing more than that, but we should at least get that for us to be confident that the government is on top of things as well as they can be...

Besides - even main Tory papers are starting to suggest that the cabinet seems unwilling or unable to make any key decision without the boss.  That’s not collective cabinet decision making and maybe it is that which produces what often seems to be evasion...

And I will repeat - I have no criticism of Hancock, Sunak or indeed Johnson in the briefings and Jenrick is doing fine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You've just painted them as either worn out, OK, room for improvement or rubbish 🙄
		
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I doubt I am alone - though I think some are doing well (you forgot to include that 😊 )


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The journalists keep asking the same questions as they are the key questions, and we should know the answers, and the answers from day to day should be consistent and reflect the plans and actions that the government is taking. We should expect nothing more than that.
		
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i disagree.  and so do the majority of people.  how can the government answer what the exit strategy will look like when they don't know themselves?  should they guess? they don't know as they are waiting on data.  they said this from day one.  they clearly explained that constructive data will take 3 to 4 weeks to come through.  yet the press keep saying "when are we lifting the lockdown". 
 if they did intend to lift the lockdown but didn't because of this data the press would be the first people to ridicule them for it.
on another note, let's just say they are holding information back.  i cant blame them.  People are stupid!!  we have shown that.   add that to the stupid press compounding every breath that is muttered by the government and you have a mess


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			i disagree.  and so do the majority of people.  how can the government answer what the exit strategy will look like when they don't know themselves?  should they guess? they don't know as they are waiting on data.  they said this from day one.  they clearly explained that constructive data will take 3 to 4 weeks to come through.  yet the press keep saying "when are we lifting the lockdown".
if they did intend to lift the lockdown but didn't because of this data the press would be the first people to ridicule them for it.
on another note, let's just say they are holding information back.  i cant blame them.  People are stupid!!  we have shown that.   add that to the stupid press compounding every breath that is muttered by the government and you have a mess
		
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I don’t disagree on exit strategy - or on your last sentence. 

But they could tell us the key metrics that they will use to inform the strategy.  I believe the Scottish FM may be thinking of doing that next week.  So for instance...positive antibody testing is clearly a metric - and so when a figure of 95% is reached for that metric that would be a point at which the government would be able to do what?  Could they do something at 75% or at any other level combined with other indicators and metrics with all necessary caveats.

I don’t see the risk - even for the less than fully attentive - in doing that, and it gives me confidence in there being a way out of this that isn’t like Trump tapping the side of his head when asked the same question.


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don’t disagree on exit strategy - or on your last sentence.  

But they could tell us the key metrics that they will use to inform the strategy.  I believe the Scottish FM may be thinking of doing that next week.  So for instance...positive antibody testing is clearly a metric - and so when a figure of 95% is reached for that metric that would be a point at which the government would be able to do what?
		
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why is that information useful to you or anyone at this moment?    haven't they said that antibody testing is inaccurate at the moment?


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## Crazyface (Apr 18, 2020)

I attach no blame to anything the government are doing / will do to help us through all this.  Just suppose they had stock piled PPE all over the country just in case anything like this happened and didn't. We'd be shocked to hear how much it was costing to to purchase and store and keep in good condition instead of helping save lives. They are doing their best. It is a global thing and everyone is after PPE. It would be great if it just fell from the sky, but it don't. I think the 100K testing thing is a bit of a joke. They'll never get to that. But that aside, the government have adopted a policy and are trying to stick to it, albeit, the police with there usual ineptitude are screwing things up (Westminister Bridge fiasco). I a tat fed up that people are ignoring all the advice. Tesco's????? Bluddy Home Bargins staff and customers beggar belief. Denser than a Black Hole.  
I start a job with Morrisons, delivering, on Monday, might as well work I thought. I am looking forward to their induction and their policies on all this. Could be a fun three hours and I might be told to leave. LOL


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## drdel (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s all about building public confidence and understanding.  Every minister leading the briefing will know the questions they are likely to be asked and so *they should all be able to give a clear consistent answer and not seem to be evasive or indecisive*.  The journalists keep asking the same questions as they are the key questions, and we should know the answers, and the answers from day to day should be consistent and reflect the plans and actions that the government is taking. We should expect nothing more than that, but we should at least get that for us to be confident that the government is on top of things as well as they can be...

Besides - even main Tory papers are starting to suggest that the cabinet seems unwilling or unable to make any key decision without the boss.  That’s not collective cabinet decision making and maybe it is that which produces what often seems to be evasion...

And I will repeat - I have no criticism of Hancock, Sunak or indeed Johnson in the briefings and Jenrick is doing fine.
		
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Personally I'm very pleased to be living in the UK at the present time. The Government has done its best to keep us all informed and I'd hate to be in their shoes.

While one should never just accept statements from anyone without question under these circumstances but, under the situation, updates can only be made as new information is available. As the medics learn it will mean that with the benefit of hindsight earlier decisions may prove to be unwise, that doesn't mean the decision was wrong or stupid at the time.

Expecting Ministers and Medics to reveal future plans in a rapidly evolving situation is plainly silly. The vast majority pick up their 'news' from the TV and press; unfortunately the media will select the soundbites and look to hype stories risking OTT reactions which may cause unexpected consequences.

You say "...*they should all be able to give a clear consistent answer and not seem to be evasive or indecisive." *This is just an unreasonable expectation under evolving and changing circumstances and, I suspect, you would be one of the first people hitting the keyboard with glee when you discover a past statement proved a mistake under the clarity of hindsight. Give them a break and be thankful you are not having to make decisions that affect millions of lives and livelihoods.


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## Hobbit (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s all about building public confidence and understanding.  Every minister leading the briefing will know the questions they are likely to be asked and so they should all be able to give a clear consistent answer and not seem to be evasive or indecisive.  The journalists keep asking the same questions as they are the key questions, and we should know the answers, and the answers from day to day should be consistent and reflect the plans and actions that the government is taking. We should expect nothing more than that, but we should at least get that for us to be confident that the government is on top of things as well as they can be...

Besides - even main Tory papers are starting to suggest that the cabinet seems unwilling or unable to make any key decision without the boss.  That’s not collective cabinet decision making and maybe it is that which produces what often seems to be evasion...

And I will repeat - I have no criticism of Hancock, Sunak or indeed Johnson in the briefings and Jenrick is doing fine.
		
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Do you not think that the "key questions" the journalists raise are the very same questions that the PM and Ministers are asking the experts?

The questions you refer to are a bit of a moving feast. For example, the original thought on ventilation, i.e. produce a lot of cheap CPAP devices. This is now being considered as not the best way forward. There's also a school of thought that some of the symptoms mirror altitude sickness.

And then there's the rate at which lockdown works, infections diminish. Do you have a crystal ball for when that will happen, bearing in mind that the experts all around the world are still trying to fully understand what's in front of them?

The questions might be, note might be, the right questions but at this moment in time the answers to some of them are of the "how long is a piece of string-type" questions.

Personally, I find there isn't an intelligent journalist asking questions at the briefings, and as for the repetition and rewording of the same question - very poor. There seems a distinct lack of patience. Maybe looking at how long its taking in countries that have had C19 longer than the UK is a better indicator of some of the answers.

As for some of the Ministers looking tired/stressed; they know that they are being asked to make decisions that could determine whether or not a significant number of people live or die. That is a level of stress no one handles comfortably.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			why is that information useful to you or anyone at this moment?    haven't they said that antibody testing is inaccurate at the moment?
		
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It’s simply about maintaining confidence in the government that it is on top of this as best it can be.  And it’s not for me its surely more important for those struggling with lockdown. As far as the antibody testing...there will be one that is accurate and so the metric is on the basis of an accurate antibody testing.


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s simply about maintaining confidence in the government that it is on top of this as best it can be.  And it’s not for me its surely more important for those struggling with lockdown. As far as the antibody testing...there will be one that is accurate and so the metric is on the basis of an accurate antibody testing.
		
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I get being confident in the government.  I just don't get how you can gain confidence from what questions are being asked.   the press have come across as a bunch of hillbillys that didn't go to school.    I personally think they know more but can't trust us with this information.  I cant blame them


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## AmandaJR (Apr 18, 2020)

Very emotive Dr. talking/appealing/bemoaning on BBC this morning talking about a lack of PPE. I, for one, am sick of hearing this constant criticism on the subject and would be interested if for once they showed the opposite perspective as it is out there. Have a driver like @Fish tell the country about the deliveries made where the last delivery of PPE hasn't even been opened. Let the public know the full story about this issue and how the NHS are deailing with it...not just have a go at the government.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Do you not think that the "key questions" the journalists raise are the very same questions that the PM and Ministers are asking the experts?

The questions you refer to are a bit of a moving feast. For example, the original thought on ventilation, i.e. produce a lot of cheap CPAP devices. This is now being considered as not the best way forward. There's also a school of thought that some of the symptoms mirror altitude sickness.

And then there's the rate at which lockdown works, infections diminish. Do you have a crystal ball for when that will happen, bearing in mind that the experts all around the world are still trying to fully understand what's in front of them?

The questions might be, note might be, the right questions but at this moment in time the answers to some of them are of the "how long is a piece of string-type" questions.

Personally, I find there isn't an intelligent journalist asking questions at the briefings, and as for the repetition and rewording of the same question - very poor. There seems a distinct lack of patience. Maybe looking at how long its taking in countries that have had C19 longer than the UK is a better indicator of some of the answers.
		
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If we don’t find the briefings useful then we stop watching them or the government stops doing them daily...would we prefer that?  And I am also clear that this is really difficult and uncertain and that the government can only be on top of things as best they can...and I agree that trying to put timescales on any of this is not appropriate.

If the answers to essentially the same questions are clear and consistent then there are no issues. It is when responses start sounding evasive that confidence might start to wane. So always put the best ministers up front to do the briefings. And make sure they are fully briefed.  Most are doing as well as can be expected in the circumstances.

The most repeated questions are around PPE and testing.  We have been assured repeatedly that testing will be 100,000 a day by end of April - that was the government commitment.  I think it reasonable then for us to know how well things are progressing towards that commitment.  We are currently at 25,000 a day. The government briefing tells us every day of the current number, but it is I think reasonable then to ask the question about the gap.


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## Hobbit (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s simply about maintaining confidence in the government that it is on top of this as best it can be.  And it’s not for me its surely more important for those struggling with lockdown. As far as the antibody testing...there will be one that is accurate and so the metric is on the basis of an accurate antibody testing.
		
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I suspect that everyone's level of confidence might be different. What satisfies yours might not satisfies the next person but is more than satisfying for the next. For me there's two main strands to that confidence, a) do I like what I'm hearing, and b) what are those in 'opposition' saying about the govt's performance? If those in a position to significantly oppose the govt's actions are, in the main, supporting the govt... what's the problem?


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## Crazyface (Apr 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			I get being confident in the government.  I just don't get how you can gain confidence from what questions are being asked.   the press have come across as a bunch of hillbillys that didn't go to school.    I personally think they now more but can't trust us with this information.  I cant blame them
		
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Brilliant !!!!! The "press" asking the questions should be fired off into oblivion. Utter morons.


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we don’t find the briefings useful then we stop watching them or the government stops doing them daily...would we prefer that?  And I am also clear that this is really difficult and uncertain and that the government can only be on top of things as best they can...

If the answers to essentially the same questions are clear and consistent then there are no issues. It is when responses start sounding evasive that confidence might start to wane. So always put the best ministers up front to do the briefings. And make sure they are fully briefed.  Most are doing as well as can be expected in the circumstances.

The most repeated questions are around PPE and testing.  We have been assured repeatedly that testing will be 100,000 a day by end of April - that was the government commitment.  I think it reasonable then for us to know how well things are progressing towards that commitment.  We are currently at 25,000 a day. The government briefing tells us every day of the current number, but it is I think reasonable then to ask the question about the gap.
		
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on the testing I agree with you.  but shouldn't we be asking them on the 1st May why they didn't reach it rather than accusing them of not hitting it 2 weeks before the deadline.  it's like asking Lewis Hamilton why he didn't win the race when he gets to his first pitstop


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Very emotive Dr. talking/appealing/bemoaning on BBC this morning talking about a lack of PPE. I, for one, am sick of hearing this constant criticism on the subject and would be interested if for once they showed the opposite perspective as it is out there. Have a driver like @Fish tell the country about the deliveries made where the last delivery of PPE hasn't even been opened. Let the public know the full story about this issue and how the NHS are deailing with it...not just have a go at the government.
		
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Many drivers have been in touch with the mainstream media, they’re not interested, it doesn’t suit the narrative. 

It’s not the government’s responsibility to ensure there was enough PPE at each and every hospital, that’s the job of the Trusts procurement teams, and they’ve been caught out and are deflecting the blame, imo of course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I suspect that everyone's level of confidence might be different. What satisfies yours might not satisfies the next person but is more than satisfying for the next. For me there's two main strands to that confidence, a) do I like what I'm hearing, and b) what are those in 'opposition' saying about the govt's performance? If those in a position to significantly oppose the govt's actions are, in the main, supporting the govt... what's the problem?
		
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I 100% agree. I hope that I understand the issues as well as most - and most ministers seem on top of things and the briefings generally work for me. But I dislike hearing what sounds like evasion from others as I don’t think it’s necessary, and just doesn’t help.  It’s not going to be the likes of me or most on here who are trying to find a way around lockdown measures and excuses to do what they want to do. But it seems that there are quite a few out there who will.


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

Fish said:



			Many drivers have been in touch with the mainstream media, they’re not interested, it doesn’t suit the narrative. 

It’s not the government’s responsibility to ensure there was enough PPE at each and every hospital, that’s the job of the Trusts procurement teams, and they’ve been caught out and are deflecting the blame, imo of course.
		
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I don't want to mention the hospital but my bosses wife said they have ppe boxes stacked all over the place and are repeatedly turning drivers away as they have no room to store it.


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			I don't want to mention the hospital but my bosses wife said they have ppe boxes stacked all over the place and are repeatedly turning drivers away as they have no room to store it.
		
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We see it daily, obviously they’re purchasing from different sources, maybe this has been the biggest issue, should there be a central ordering system, so orders and repeat orders can be monitored against potential usage? is there panic buying going on throughout the trusts? and the ones complaining simply don't have a good aggressive procurement team, and it’s them failing their immediate staff?


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## Hobbit (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we don’t find the briefings useful then we stop watching them or the government stops doing them daily...would we prefer that?  And I am also clear that this is really difficult and uncertain and that the government can only be on top of things as best they can...and I agree that trying to put timescales on any of this is not appropriate.

If the answers to essentially the same questions are clear and consistent then there are no issues. It is when responses start sounding evasive that confidence might start to wane. So always put the best ministers up front to do the briefings. And make sure they are fully briefed.  Most are doing as well as can be expected in the circumstances.

The most repeated questions are around PPE and testing.  We have been assured repeatedly that testing will be 100,000 a day by end of April - that was the government commitment.  I think it reasonable then for us to know how well things are progressing towards that commitment.  We are currently at 25,000 a day. The government briefing tells us every day of the current number, but it is I think reasonable then to ask the question about the gap.
		
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Testing; "we" know where we are now and "we" know what the gap is - simple maths. We also hear that the centres are up and running but are often sparse of 'customers.' You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I have always detested the need to wipe some people's backsides. 

I've heard the, "yes but the test centre is an hour each way." So how much do you value your own life. Get up early and GO!


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## Mudball (Apr 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Very emotive Dr. talking/appealing/bemoaning on BBC this morning talking about a lack of PPE. I, for one, [Bold] am sick of hearing this constant criticism on the subject [/Bold]and would be interested if for once they showed the opposite perspective as it is out there. Have a driver like @Fish tell the country about the deliveries made where the last delivery of PPE hasn't even been opened. Let the public know the full story about this issue and how the NHS are deailing with it...not just have a go at the government.
		
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Amanda .. I am going to disagree.. this is ultra omnishambles from the Govt. apparently there is PPE but they could not get it out in sufficient quantity and quality to the front line. 

Would we ask our Army boys and girls to go to the frontline but not give them guns & armour. Every frontline worker without PPE is at risk. The new PHE guideline of work without ppe is diabolical. Drs and nurses signed up to save lives not to kill themselves. 

Our local GP is buying PPE directly from Far East, Germany etc. They have turned to fund raising platforms to get this. 

I speak as a husband of an NHS worker and I know the number of calls they have been on trying to figure out PPE and guidelines. She still does her job but every time she goes to her clinic, we as a family say a silent prayer. Every time she coughs, I sh*t myself. 

So every time I hear some one from the frontline berates the lack of PPE, I feel like throwing the remote at the TV. 

Without people like Fish, we would be in a worse place. But unfortunately we can’t say we have done enough... Hannock’s magic wand is the same as May’s magic money tree.. 

.. rant over


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I doubt I am alone - though I think some are doing well (you forgot to include that 😊 )
		
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It's not BGT


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we don’t find the briefings useful then we stop watching them or the government stops doing them daily...would we prefer that?  And I am also clear that this is really difficult and uncertain and that the government can only be on top of things as best they can...and I agree that trying to put timescales on any of this is not appropriate.

If the answers to essentially the same questions are clear and consistent then there are no issues. It is when responses start sounding evasive that confidence might start to wane. So always put the best ministers up front to do the briefings. And make sure they are fully briefed.  Most are doing as well as can be expected in the circumstances.

The most repeated questions are around PPE and testing.  We have been assured repeatedly that testing will be 100,000 a day by end of April - that was the government commitment.  I think it reasonable then for us to know how well things are progressing towards that commitment.  We are currently at 25,000 a day. The government briefing tells us every day of the current number, but it is I think reasonable then to ask the question about the gap.
		
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Why is it, reading your posts, that you make conciliatory general statements, but then it isn't long before you get to the sniping bit. E.g testing at 100,000.
I believed when that target was first mentioned, that it was exactly that, a target. You , however, want the press to badger why not achieved, and if not there is a leaping on a grievous fault , incompetence or worse still lies.
There's plenty a slip 'tween cup.....etc.
Not always because of a mendacious government, which is what it seems some journos want to believe. 
I've likened this crisis to war. And as in war, things don't always go right.
Some battles are lost, hopefully this war will be won.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 18, 2020)

From looking throughout the world it is possible that the governments can both do the best they can based on their natural competences and the state of society that they have fostered, but also it can not be good enough, due to their innate incompetence and the state of society they have fostered. The two are not mutually exclusive.  It's like me at golf, I'm doing my best but I am still pretty rubbish at it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			From what we read/hear (if we believe the various sources), some hospitals have more PPE than they need and some don't have what they need. Sounds like a failure at national/government level to me.
		
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It has been stated over and over that the Government are not responsible for ordering ppe, it's done by the local health authority.  Sounds like a failure of you to keep informed to me.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			From what we read/hear (if we believe the various sources), some hospitals have more PPE than they need and some don't have what they need. Sounds like a failure at national/government level to me.
		
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So some hospitals have asked for too much and some not enough? Which would make it a local issue rather than national.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Nope
		
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You know that for sure?


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			My point being that we experiencing a pandemic which is putting unprecedented pressure on supply chains and that requires national coordination to ensure stocks reach the places that need it rather than forcing local authorities to compete with each other.

Love the snippy dig too - you haven't changed a bit.
		
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the government pay the NHS to do this work for them. I think its too much to ask a government official to visit each hospital with a pencil and count what they need.  hospitals have they're own department for this.  but maybe they just can't get the stuff they're ordering.    however, fish has given his view, I have heard another from a colleagues wife and at this very moment all fire stations in Staffordshire are storing large stocks off PPE too.  its all seems to me that communication has broken down. maybe its the governments fault, maybe it isn't. I have no answers


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 18, 2020)

Just because a hsopeital is supplied with enough PPE doesnt mean to say they have enough PPE when they need it. Theres been quite a few instances of PPE being stolen from hospitals leaving them short. Has that been factored in?


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Amanda .. I am going to disagree.. this is ultra omnishambles from the Govt. apparently there is PPE but they could not get it out in sufficient quantity and quality to the front line.

Would we ask our Army boys and girls to go to the frontline but not give them guns & armour. Every frontline worker without PPE is at risk. The new PHE guideline of work without ppe is diabolical. Drs and nurses signed up to save lives not to kill themselves.

Our local GP is buying PPE directly from Far East, Germany etc. They have turned to fund raising platforms to get this.

I speak as a husband of an NHS worker and I know the number of calls they have been on trying to figure out PPE and guidelines. She still does her job but every time she goes to her clinic, we as a family say a silent prayer. Every time she coughs, I sh*t myself.

So every time I hear some one from the frontline berates the lack of PPE, I feel like throwing the remote at the TV.

Without people like Fish, we would be in a worse place. But unfortunately we can’t say we have done enough... Hannock’s magic wand is the same as May’s magic money tree..

.. rant over
		
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Fish hit nail on the head. To many Trusts working independently which anyone can see would cause supply chain issues and a lot of hoarding. Is it a shambles, yes because of the fact that to many trusts are acting independently. When this is over they will be finding PPE lying around in store rooms that people never knew where there.

Did the troops go to war without the necessary kit, many times, however that doesn't make it right that trusts are failing their staff.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don’t disagree on exit strategy - or on your last sentence.

But they could tell us the key metrics that they will use to inform the strategy.  I believe the Scottish FM may be thinking of doing that next week.  So for instance...positive antibody testing is clearly a metric - and so when a figure of 95% is reached for that metric that would be a point at which the government would be able to do what?  Could they do something at 75% or at any other level combined with other indicators and metrics with all necessary caveats.

I don’t see the risk - even for the less than fully attentive - in doing that, and it gives me confidence in there being a way out of this that isn’t like Trump tapping the side of his head when asked the same question.
		
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The key metrics to an exit strategy was laid out in the briefing.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			My point being that we experiencing a pandemic which is putting unprecedented pressure on supply chains and that requires national coordination to ensure stocks reach the places that need it rather than forcing local authorities to compete with each other.

Love the snippy dig too - you haven't changed a bit.
		
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Just means some trusts are over ordering.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 18, 2020)

We vote a government in to look after our best interests... If they, the government, choose to sub off any part of their responsibility to a third party and that third party has failings/shortcomings... It should be down to government to shoulder responsibility and fully address the failings/shortcomings...

IMO


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			From looking throughout the world it is possible that the governments can both do the best they can based on their natural competences and the state of society that they have fostered, but also it can not be good enough, due to their innate incompetence and the state of society they have fostered. The two are not mutually exclusive.  It's like me at golf, I'm doing my best but I am still pretty rubbish at it.
		
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Well, yes, but then would it be fair for your PP or the spectators to keep saying to you " why aren't you playing better. You said you would. What are you keeping from me ? Etc etc😉


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, yes, but then would it be fair for your PP or the spectators to keep saying to you " why aren't you playing better. You said you would. What are you keeping from me ? Etc etc😉
		
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to be fair. My usual PP’s say this to me all the bloody time....


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 18, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, so I’d be grateful for some clarity (Genuine question before the usual suspects turn up with the usual snarky comments).

Last week, when a lack of PPE was reported, it was explained on here that there was plenty of PPE but that the logistics and the performance of individual trusts was at fault. However, this week, the lack of PPE
		
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If you want to know what the lifting of lockdown will look like then presumably the best bet is to follow Denmark, Austria, Estonia and a few others, Germany probably. They are ahead of us and are starting to lift restrictions. It is logical that our govt will be watching what happens in those countries, what works, what doesn't, and use it as a blueprint for us.

I doubt they would go completely off piste on lifting restrictions compared to other countries so the above makes sense, to me anyway 😁.


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you want to know what the lifting of lockdown will look like then presumably the best bet is to follow Denmark, Austria, Estonia and a few others, Germany probably. They are ahead of us and are starting to lift restrictions. It is logical that our govt will be watching what happens in those countries, what works, what doesn't, and use it as a blueprint for us.

I doubt they would go completely off piste on lifting restrictions compared to other countries so the above makes sense, to me anyway 😁.
		
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I've always thought that perhaps the government purposely delayed our lock down to be behind other countries.  a little bit like letting your colleagues walk through the mine field first.  at least then you'll know where to step🤣


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 18, 2020)

hovis said:



			the government pay the NHS to do this work for them. I think its too much to ask a government official to visit each hospital with a pencil and count what they need.  hospitals have they're own department for this.  but maybe they just can't get the stuff they're ordering.    however, fish has given his view, I have heard another from a colleagues wife and at this very moment all fire stations in Staffordshire are storing large stocks off PPE too.  its all seems to me that communication has broken down. maybe its the governments fault, maybe it isn't. I have no of
		
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Things being as they NOW are, why cannot a group of civil servants be set up in a couple of rooms to telephone each hospital to find out who has excess ppe and who hasn't enough. Answers should be immediate.
Then get couriers, pretty damn quick to go and pick it up and take it to where needed.
Like Churchill - endorse it "Action this day"


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			We vote a government in to look after our best interests... If they, the government, choose to sub off any part of their responsibility to a third party and that third party has failings/shortcomings... It should be down to government to shoulder responsibility and fully address the failings/shortcomings...

IMO
		
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Agree, bring the NHS back under one umbrella and get rid of trusts, get rid of their CEOs and staff that aren't trained in the rolls the might be doing. Save a fortune.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Things being as they NOW are, why cannot a group of civil servants be set up in a couple of rooms to telephone each hospital to find out who has excess ppe and who hasn't enough. Answers should be immediate.
Then get couriers, pretty damn quick to go and pick it up and take it to where needed.
Like Churchill - endorse it "Action this day"
		
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First you need the trust to admit it and as they will operate on a belts and braces strategy they will be very reluctant to give a true figure.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			First you need the trust to admit it and as they will operate on a belts and braces strategy they will be very reluctant to give a true figure.
		
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How about government apologising for its shortcomings... And, forcing trusts into having to compete for kit...


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			From what we read/hear (if we believe the various sources), some hospitals have more PPE than they need and some don't have what they need. Sounds like a failure at national/government level to me.
		
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 Not at all, PPE isn’t ordered from a central source, and the government isn’t involved at all!

Trusts buy in from any companies within the UK and all over Europe and worldwide, as long as the items conform to our standards. 

So they’ll base, or did, there purchases on price and availability. 

With never experiencing anything on this scale before, some suppliers can’t meet the demands, so now trusts need to find new suppliers at a moments notice!

How can any of that be lay at the governments door? 

Why are so many people surprised that we don’t have the capacity to supply basic equipment when we hardly make any of it ourselves! 

The whole country, businesses and the public are so used to buying cheap from wherever the Labour is most underpaid, first and foremost, and who now have there own issues on their own back yards, that it’s really shown us as a country to be so exposed and thus we are now reliant on begging uk companies (some are volunteering) to diversify to help. 

After this everyone needs to have a hard look at themselves who contribute to this ideal rather than trying to pin everything on Boris and the government.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 18, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Nearly, opposite way round...

Answering the question before last...
Hilarious 😂
		
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Not at all, in FMQ tweedle dee [Tory][ asks a question and gets an answer.
Next tweedle dummer [LAB] asks the same question that has already been answered 
Then tweedle even dummer [Lib] asks the same question that has already been answered twice.

That is the sad state of affairs with Scottish opposition parties.


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			How about government apologising for its shortcomings... And, forcing trusts into having to compete for kit...
		
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How about Tony Blair being hung out to dry?

The NHS Deficit is £2.5 billion - most of that caused by PFI contracts signed off on by? Tony Blair.

You could have paid the NHS deficit off 4 times over and still had £2bn left for frontline services if not for? Tony Blair.

Why is our NHS in crisis? Tony Blair.

In the last 5 years of Blair's government the NHS lost 26,000 beds.

In the last 12 years, under the coalition then May governments, the NHS lost 16,000 beds.

That means Blair lost nearly twice the number of NHS beds as the next 2 Tory led/Tory governments combined - in half the time.

The current government under Boris Johnson hasn't signed a single PFI NHS contract.

Probably because they don't take political bribes off Richard Branson.

Unlike Labour, who to this day have affiliated organisations paid for by Richard Branson.

PFI is spread over a twenty five year term at the end of which most hospitals belong to the banks. The NHS hospitals sold by Blair & Brown were bought back into public ownership by? The Tories.


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If you want to know what the lifting of lockdown will look like then presumably the best bet is to follow Denmark, Austria, Estonia and a few others, Germany probably. They are ahead of us and are starting to lift restrictions. It is logical that our govt will be watching what happens in those countries, what works, what doesn't, and use it as a blueprint for us.

I doubt they would go completely off piste on lifting restrictions compared to other countries so the above makes sense, to me anyway 😁.
		
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😂😂😂
What you replied to there was a part post I wrote previously, then deleted as I realised the utter futility of writing it. This stupid forum platform won’t let you delete a part post until you’ve compiled and posted another one. Which is now going to be my next post in the random irritation thread 😂👍


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## Imurg (Apr 18, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			😂😂😂
What you replied to there was a part post I wrote previously, then deleted as I realised the utter futility of writing it. This stupid forum platform won’t let you delete a part post until you’ve compiled and posted another one. Which is now going to be my next post in the random irritation thread 😂👍
		
Click to expand...

In the reply box, the menu on the top (smiles etc) on the far right is the * button to open and close it.
Next to it is a disk icon with an arrow
Click on that and you have the option to delete draft or save draft
Click delete draft, come out of that page, go back in and it's gone..


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## bluewolf (Apr 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In the reply box, the menu on the top (smiles etc) on the far right is the * button to open and close it.
Next to it is a disk icon with an arrow
Click on that and you have the option to delete draft or save draft
Click delete draft, come out of that page, go back in and it's gone.. 

Click to expand...

Finally, a useful post in this thread 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍


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## MegaSteve (Apr 18, 2020)

Fish said:



			How about Tony Blair being hung out to dry?

The NHS Deficit is £2.5 billion - most of that caused by PFI contracts signed off on by? Tony Blair.

You could have paid the NHS deficit off 4 times over and still had £2bn left for frontline services if not for? Tony Blair.

Why is our NHS in crisis? Tony Blair.

In the last 5 years of Blair's government the NHS lost 26,000 beds.

In the last 12 years, under the coalition then May governments, the NHS lost 16,000 beds.

That means Blair lost nearly twice the number of NHS beds as the next 2 Tory led/Tory governments combined - in half the time.

The current government under Boris Johnson hasn't signed a single PFI NHS contract.

Probably because they don't take political bribes off Richard Branson.

Unlike Labour, who to this day have affiliated organisations paid for by Richard Branson.

PFI is spread over a twenty five year term at the end of which most hospitals belong to the banks. The NHS hospitals sold by Blair & Brown were bought back into public ownership by? The Tories.
		
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If Blair or Brown were in government and there were similar/same shortcomings evident I'd be equally as questioning... IMO As it became evident there were issues with the supply of kit... Hancock or his ministry/department should have taken full control of procurement/distribution... Instead they appear to have just worked to distance themselves from blame...


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			... IMO As it became evident there issues with the supply of kit... Hancock or his ministry/department should have taken full control of procurement/distribution... Instead they appear to have just worked to distance themselves from blame...
		
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perhaps now gowns are critical level they might.


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In the reply box, the menu on the top (smiles etc) on the far right is the * button to open and close it.
Next to it is a disk icon with an arrow
Click on that and you have the option to delete draft or save draft
Click delete draft, come out of that page, go back in and it's gone.. 

Click to expand...

Or you can also 'clear all the text in the post you don't want to post' and attempt to post an empty text - which it won't allow. Clicking the 'X' normally allows you to continue afresh, though I have had it leave the text I wanted to abandon once.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			None of us do, all we can do is speculate. The government have done some great things during this crisis but also some catastrophic failures, I don't subscribe to the attitude that they shouldn't be criticised. It's more important than ever to hold them to account.
		
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Whilst I'd agree that it is important to hold any Government to account, timing is everything and I don't think now is the time.  To paraphrase something that used to sit on the office wall, they are currently trying to drain the swamp;  do they need to be up to their collective arse in alligators, because that might distract from the mission's objective in my opinion.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Things being as they NOW are, why cannot a group of civil servants be set up in a couple of rooms to telephone each hospital to find out who has excess ppe and who hasn't enough. Answers should be immediate.
Then get couriers, pretty damn quick to go and pick it up and take it to where needed.
Like Churchill - endorse it "Action this day"
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			First you need the trust to admit it and as they will operate on a belts and braces strategy they will be very reluctant to give a true figure.
		
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Exactly; you've got a better chance of China publishing true death figures than hospitals owning up to having too much PPE.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Exactly; you've got a better chance of China publishing true death figures than hospitals owning up to having too much PPE.
		
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colleagues wife works in a hospital, they have ample PPE with some surplus, where she trained another part of the country has none. They are reluctant to give up what they have incase they suddenly get a spike and cant protect their staff.

must be a hard thing to manage


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Like 90% of everything posted on here it's opinion. I explained my thinking, which seems sound to me, in my reply to socketrocket's post.
		
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 It would as it's your opinion.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think that's true of some things. Now is not the time to castigate them for taking too long to lockdown, for example, that ship has sailed. But on other matters that can possibly be influenced such as PPE, testing, exit strategy etc I think it right they face some scrutiny.

Agree in principle though that it needs to be at a proportionate level to be of benefit rather than just distracting from "the mission".
		
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And the problem with your second paragraph, with which I can agree, is that the only people that currently will be holding them to account are the press, who have proved beyond all doubt that they are totally unsuited to anything involving the word "proportionate"; it's either nuclear or nothing with them at the moment.


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Robin, my whole point on this is that in these exceptional circumstances it falls to government to ensure that scarce resources are distributed according to need. It may not be their role in "normal" times but they need to step in. Left to their own devices, trusts are obviously going to ensure they have a surplus if possible.
		
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That would be a complete logistical overhaul as goods are currently arriving in from everywhere and being delivered directly. 

You’d need to obtain every suppliers details, have them deliver to a central, or regional hubs (slowing down what we have now), have all the trusts, hospitals etc put in requisitions to a central office (more admin!) and then distribute accordingly. 

Sounds easy, but that’s a big operation to set up and arrange and to get working efficiently, in double quick time! 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I think it’s too late to step in now, but at what point would have been ideal, undoing a lot of what some trusts are obviously on top of. 

The media are obviously focusing on some specific hospitals that are in worse situations regarding access to PPE, I’d like to know how many there are, and if it’s a small percentage, which I expect it is, but the media are pumping it, I’d like to know why they’ve failed to obtain enough PPE when others clearly haven’t?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Agreed, it'll be difficult. So should we leave a failing system in place or try to fix it?
		
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I think Robin answered that


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## hovis (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Agreed, it'll be difficult. So should we leave a failing system in place or try to fix it?
		
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one thing for sure is that when this is over the NHS won't be the same. I hope!


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## Hobbit (Apr 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Things being as they NOW are, why cannot a group of civil servants be set up in a couple of rooms to telephone each hospital to find out who has excess ppe and who hasn't enough. Answers should be immediate.
Then get couriers, pretty damn quick to go and pick it up and take it to where needed.
Like Churchill - endorse it "Action this day"
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			Agree, bring the NHS back under one umbrella and get rid of trusts, get rid of their CEOs and staff that aren't trained in the rolls the might be doing. Save a fortune.
		
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A bit like the Regional Health Boards that just had one Admin Centre for, for example, North Yorkshire. Worked well for donkey's years. Some Trusts amalgamated a number of years ago - slowly going back towards centralisation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2020)

Why can’t the Government appoint someone (from any Political Larty) to oversee the PPE and get a true picture of what is going on.

Instruct ALL Trusts to answer the questions asked by said person and then decide if they need to step in and take over the supply of PPE.

Hospitals will continue to need it forever, forget what has happened up to now and get the true picture so they can maybe influence or protect all Staff that need PPE moving forward.

Surely we can’t keep allowing these questions to be asked or allow 1 hospital to have too much while others struggle.

Not every question asked during this crisis has to be politically linked either by the poster or those giving responses.

I’m pretty confident there’ll be plenty of political fall out from this, on all sides, warranted or not once it’s over.


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Agreed, it'll be difficult. So should we leave a failing system in place or try to fix it?
		
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A failing system, by what proportions?

If 80% is fully equipped (I don't know the figures), would you change a whole operation for the 20% that’s fallen off a cliff, or would you quickly identify why that 20% has failed and address that?

Myself and hundreds of couriers across the country are delivering PPE into hospitals and pharmacies on a daily basis, some repeatedly within a week or two, and I’m talking about thousands of items within a single shipment, so the system hasn’t failed, some trusts or hospitals are just better at procurement than others, so does that require a complete overhaul of the logistics because of a possible minority that have failed, and that the media are constantly focusing on, I don’t think so personally.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2020)

Fish said:



			A failing system, by what proportions?

If 80% is fully equipped (I don't know the figures), would you change a whole operation for the 20% that’s fallen off a cliff, or would you quickly identify why that 20% has failed and address that?

Myself and hundreds of couriers across the country are delivering PPE into hospitals and pharmacies on a daily basis, some repeatedly within a week or two, and I’m talking about thousands of items within a single shipment, so the system hasn’t failed, some trusts or hospitals are just better at procurement than others, so does that require a complete overhaul of the logistics because of a possible minority that have failed, and that the media are constantly focusing on, I don’t think so personally.
		
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Whose responsibility is it to identify the weakness? Normal times, those weaker trusts would suffer, during this problem as it could cost thousands of lives, I believe the Government should step in, then as you say they have the clout to deal with the 20% and the authority to get it moved from the places who may be over stocked.


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## Hobbit (Apr 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Whose responsibility is it to identify the weakness? Normal times, those weaker trusts would suffer, during this problem as it could cost thousands of lives, I believe the Government should step in, then as you say they have the clout to deal with the 20% and the authority to get it moved from the places who may be over stocked.
		
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NICE. The National Institute for healthcare and Clinical Excellence.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, they've never had a pandemic to stress test the performance of the hospitals. As has been previously said, I dare say there'll be a full post-mortem on the performance.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In the reply box, the menu on the top (smiles etc) on the far right is the * button to open and close it.
Next to it is a disk icon with an arrow
Click on that and you have the option to delete draft or save draft
Click delete draft, come out of that page, go back in and it's gone.. 

Click to expand...

Thanks goodness. I sometimes start to type and think "what's the point" (ok that happens quite often) and then everytime I get to the bottom of the thread my part typed reply is there. In the end I type something just to get rid of it...usually a pile of rubbish (ok that happens quite often too)!


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			How about government apologising for its shortcomings... And, forcing trusts into having to compete for kit...
		
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Dear electorate the government apologies for the following:
100 of countries seem to require PPE
There's a world shortage.
Some trust are holding/stockpiling PPE
Some trust have employed people into positions above their ability

Take your pick


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

I find it strange that the media never name the trusts that are short of PPE and a comment that a trust has contacted the BBC for the telephone number of Burberry beggars belief.


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## IainP (Apr 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I find it strange that the media never name the trusts that are short of PPE and a comment that a trust has contacted the BBC for the telephone number of Burberry beggars belief.
		
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They had to "re-clarify"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52333540


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

IainP said:



			They had to "re-clarify"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52333540

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No TV announcement then, everyone reads the BBC business section


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why can’t the Government appoint someone (from any Political Larty) to oversee the PPE and get a true picture of what is going on.

Instruct ALL Trusts to answer the questions asked by said person and then decide if they need to step in and take over the supply of PPE.

Hospitals will continue to need it forever, forget what has happened up to now and get the true picture so they can maybe influence or protect all Staff that need PPE moving forward.

*Surely we can’t keep allowing these questions to be asked or allow 1 hospital to have too much while others struggle.*

Not every question asked during this crisis has to be politically linked either by the poster or those giving responses.

I’m pretty confident there’ll be plenty of political fall out from this, on all sides, warranted or not once it’s over.
		
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This is an unprecedented national crisis with Staff lives at risk.
Of course, in ordinary business times Trusts are going to compete( whether that situation should ever have been set up like that is for another time).
But now, they will cooperate or else. Any Trust not admitting their true stock levels will have their Chiefs sacked and black listed. If they are Drs they will be struck off, whatever it takes.
Whistleblowing will be encouraged.
 It would be made clear that they would be left with a margin of stock to cater for anticipated needs, but there would be a fair distribution of stock
This isn't ordinary business competition, this is life and death of colleagues, and some out the box thinking and action  is needed.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Dear electorate the government apologies for the following:
100 of countries seem to require PPE
There's a world shortage.
Some trust are holding/stockpiling PPE
Some trust have employed people into positions above their ability

Take your pick
		
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None of the above..

We, as the government, could have acted quicker and been more proactive in our response to issues arising from the procurement and distribution of PPE...

A bit of honesty and openness rather than the usual deflection would, I believe, served them better...


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## fundy (Apr 18, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			None of the above..

We, as the government, could have acted quicker and been more proactive in our response to issues arising from the procurement and distribution of PPE...

A bit of honesty and openness rather than the usual deflection would, I believe, served them better...
		
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maybe, or the people who cant wait to find any little fault would've blamed them anyway


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## MegaSteve (Apr 18, 2020)

fundy said:



			maybe, or the people who cant wait to find any little fault would've blamed them anyway
		
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Honesty is a rare commodity from any government making it difficult to guess how folk would cope/judge it if ever confronted with it...


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			None of the above..

We, as the government, could have acted quicker and been more proactive in our response to issues arising from the procurement and distribution of PPE...

A bit of honesty and openness rather than the usual deflection would, I believe, served them better...
		
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I respect your opinion even if I may not agree with it.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 18, 2020)

Funny that Trusts that have bought loads of PPE leaving others short are “ good at procurement “
Yet someone procuring all the toilet rolls in Tesco were called selfish and other things, rightly.
Lives could be lost because some trusts have storerooms full while others have a shortage.
Some coordination is nessesary.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, yes, but then would it be fair for your PP or the spectators to keep saying to you " why aren't you playing better. You said you would. What are you keeping from me ? Etc etc😉
		
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What if I had the self awareness to not claim I was any good at golf in the first place and did not bluff myself into a position where people thought I was?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Dear electorate the government apologies for the following:
100 of countries seem to require PPE
There's a world shortage.
Some trust are holding/stockpiling PPE
*Some trust have employed people into positions above their ability*

Take your pick
		
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As have some prime ministers...


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2020)

As of 9am 18 April, 460,437 tests have concluded, with 21,389 tests on 17 April. 

357,023 people have been tested of which 114,217 tested positive. 

As of 5pm on 17 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 15,464 have sadly died.

Thus a further 888 have sadly died in the last 24hrs.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 18, 2020)

Been saying for weeks we were severely short of stock and our senior technician having a devils own job to get the right stuff. We now have surgical masks everywhere but they are totally inappropriate working in close proximity of patients and aerosol generating equipment. We've had some gowns in but never enough to stock more than one day at a time and so already we've had calls to follow the new guidance regarding re-use. Not sure where we are on FFP3 masks but didn't seem to be much in stock Friday. It's a disgrace that frontline staff aren't being given the equipment to work properly and safely


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			As have some prime ministers...
		
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Common fault in all occupations


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Been saying for weeks we were severely short of stock and our senior technician having a devils own job to get the right stuff. We now have surgical masks everywhere but they are totally inappropriate working in close proximity of patients and aerosol generating equipment. We've had some gowns in but never enough to stock more than one day at a time and so already we've had calls to follow the new guidance regarding re-use. Not sure where we are on FFP3 masks but didn't seem to be much in stock Friday. It's a disgrace that frontline staff aren't being given the equipment to work properly and safely
		
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Ring the trust next door.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Been saying for weeks we were severely short of stock and our senior technician having a devils own job to get the right stuff. We now have surgical masks everywhere but they are totally inappropriate working in close proximity of patients and aerosol generating equipment. We've had some gowns in but never enough to stock more than one day at a time and so already we've had calls to follow the new guidance regarding re-use. Not sure where we are on FFP3 masks but didn't seem to be much in stock Friday. *It's a disgrace that frontline staff aren't being given the equipment to work properly and safely*

Click to expand...

In your opinion who is at fault? Is it the government, your hospital procurement team, other hospitals over ordering or something else? I'd be interested in your opinion, if you can give it without risking your job as obviously blaming your own hospital's procurement team on an open forum might be frowned upon.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			In your opinion who is at fault? Is it the government, your hospital procurement team, other hospitals over ordering or something else? I'd be interested in your opinion, if you can give it without risking your job as obviously blaming your own hospital's procurement team on an open forum might be frowned upon.
		
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Reluctant to lay blame at anyones door, certainly not our technicians who have been begging and borrowing from wherever to keep supplies up. If anything I think the communication channels have been a problem with too many people seemingly getting involved and not keeping others in the loop. There has definitely been issues with procurement and NHS supplies and there's a feeling within our technicians that they aren't doing enough to utilise their position or being forceful enough to get sufficient orders through to cover the trust as a whole


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## williamalex1 (Apr 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52321378

From what I have been told a surgical mask is next to useless.
		
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Stick one of your good ladies Panty liners or Tena pads inside it, preferably a new one and problem solved , no leaks in or out


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 18, 2020)

Slime said:



			Went to a Tesco this morning, not good, not good at all.
Some of their customers are just bloody idiots.
		
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Outside Waitrose today people were doing the 2m thing really well.

InsideI think they had all got bored and no one seemed to care. I saw 4 people within a 2m space, two were staff with no PPE at all...

Its not just Tesco, its every supermarket down to the corner shop I have been in so far.

Only place that worked was the “one in at a time” approach at the pharmacy. 

We shouldn’t be just booking home delivery slots online, we should be booking an entry time into a supermarket!


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## User62651 (Apr 18, 2020)

Interesting, Times having a pop now

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251563504118771712


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			In your opinion who is at fault? Is it the government, your hospital procurement team, other hospitals over ordering or something else? I'd be interested in your opinion, if you can give it without risking your job as obviously blaming your own hospital's procurement team on an open forum might be frowned upon.
		
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Theres a massive world wide demand for it, it's probably no ones fault. Everyone will be doing their upmost to get PPE to the front lines but it's a mamoth task, how could anyone be prepared for a pandemic like this, if they had been hording equipment before no doubt that would be wrong and a waste of money.

We were told today there is a very big consignment coming tomorrow, hopefully that will keep them going.  How about we wait untill this is over before looking for scape goats.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Theres a massive world wide demand for it, it's probably no ones fault. Everyone will be doing their upmost to get PPE to the front lines but it's a mamoth task, how could anyone be prepared for a pandemic like this, if they had been hording equipment before no doubt that would be wrong and a waste of money.

We were told today there is a very big consignment coming tomorrow, hopefully that will keep them going.  How about we wait untill this is over before looking for scape goats.
		
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I wasn't looking for a scapegoat, I was just interested in Homer's opinion of where the problem in the supply chain was. But if some trusts can get what they need and others can't then there are obviously problems somewhere, even accepting the current huge global demands.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wasn't looking for a scapegoat, I was just interested in Homer's opinion of where the problem in the supply chain was. But if some trusts can get what they need and others can't then there are obviously problems somewhere, even accepting the current huge global demands.
		
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Surely the supply and demand is similar to toilet rolls. Lots of  consumer demand and not enough supply to satisfy it.  Spikes in product demand often mean some get what they want and others struggle.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			f money.

We were told today there is a very big consignment coming tomorrow, hopefully that will keep them going.  How about we wait untill this is over before looking for scape goats.
		
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The problem is the government central stores will get the delivery but it's how it gets filtered out that I feel is the issue. I get London is the worse hit and so with the most patients will need more PPE for the staff to treat them effectively.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the supply and demand is similar to toilet rolls. Lots of  consumer demand and not enough supply to satisfy it.  Spikes in product demand often mean some get what they want and others struggle.
		
Click to expand...

No, no, no, this is far too serious to simply write the problem off as “some getting what they want while others struggle”.
It’s not about a scapegoat it’s about identifying how the problem has happened and preventing it in the future.
How on on earth you equate the public panic buying toilet roll against NHS Staff having their lives put at risk is beyond me.
Rather than think the public are looking for a scapegoat twist it on its head and realise the public are looking for a hero to step up and sort it out.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 18, 2020)

May have been mentioned before and if that is the case I apologise.

Why is there no figure for recoveries in The UK please?


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## upsidedown (Apr 18, 2020)

HiD is ward manager for a Neo natal unit but now due to staff shortages along with all the other 7's are doing floor shifts and asked her tonight when she got in at 9.15 how they are doing for PPE . Fine but they're getting short of IV lines for the babies . Reason is they come from Belgium and they are being held up because the manufacturers are on short time due to covid 19 and when there orders ready fro dispatch they are short of drivers.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No, no, no, this is far too serious to simply write the problem off as “some getting what they want while others struggle”.
*It’s not about a scapegoat it’s about identifying how the problem has happened and preventing it in the future.*
How on on earth you equate the public panic buying toilet roll against NHS Staff having their lives put at risk is beyond me.
Rather than think the public are looking for a scapegoat twist it on its head and realise the public are looking for a hero to step up and sort it out.
		
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Perhaps we should have been asking South Korea a long time  ago how it planned to deal with a post SARS scenario, as they appear to have been the most prepared and ready for it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps we should have been asking South Korea a long time  ago how it planned to deal with a post SARS scenario, as they appear to have been the most prepared and ready for it.
		
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True, but I genuinely believe the Government are trying their hardest, but that does not mean we shouldn’t question them on the way along to ensure any possible errors (which will happen) are rectified quickly.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Common fault in all occupations
		
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But potentially has some catastrophic consequences if you are the person at the top.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No, no, no, this is far too serious to simply write the problem off as “some getting what they want while others struggle”.
It’s not about a scapegoat it’s about identifying how the problem has happened and preventing it in the future.
How on on earth you equate the public panic buying toilet roll against NHS Staff having their lives put at risk is beyond me.
Rather than think the public are looking for a scapegoat twist it on its head and realise the public are looking for a hero to step up and sort it out.
		
Click to expand...

You obviously havent followed the thread or tried to understand what I said.  If you think for one moment I'm suggesting buying toilet rolls is as serious as the supply of PPE then you are missing the point badly.  Someone asked the question why there could be a supply problem and I made an analogy of supply and demand.  My scapegoat comment referred to someone asking who was to blame.

I know you have a problem with me and take every opportunity to show it but try to keep to the subject matter.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps we should have been asking South Korea a long time  ago how it planned to deal with a post SARS scenario, as they appear to have been the most prepared and ready for it.
		
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Hindsight is a great attribute. Did anyone have the slightest idea that a pandemic of this scale and type would be coming along. Although I guess there are always lessons to be learned. Maybe the WHO are the ones to be considering it and advising us.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hindsight is a great attribute. Did anyone have the slightest idea that a pandemic of this scale and type would be coming along.
		
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Obviously the South Koreans did....


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## SocketRocket (Apr 18, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Obviously the South Koreans did....
		
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Sorry, I did add a bit more


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 18, 2020)

Thing I don’t understand is Trusts are competing with each other for PPE.
Hoarding it while others are low.
So is it a NATIONAL health service or every trust for itself.


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## Bunkermagnet (Apr 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry, I did add a bit more
		
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As you did.
The WHO may be ones to ask, but you have to say after South Korea was so affected by SARS they have taken steps to reduce any possible issues if anything happened again..as we are seeing now. Perhaps we need to stop things like this are a "once in a lifetime" or similar event, and accept that we are so global in our ways now that we must look at how things have gone and take the according measures for next time (which there surely will be). Therefore we must take advise from South Korea and see how it has prepared itself.


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## IainP (Apr 18, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			May have been mentioned before and if that is the case I apologise.

Why is there no figure for recoveries in The UK please?
		
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Don't think it has, spotted it also, meant to have a dig around


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## Kellfire (Apr 18, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251606098974474244
A thread outlining the major points. I take back what I said previously. The government really have screwed us here. Maybe the end for Boris when this is all over? We can but hope.


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## DanFST (Apr 19, 2020)

That is scathing, however the first thing that came to my mind is China. Was our government taking advice from them? 

In normal situations you would trust a government with boots on the ground to give an accurate representation. Especially as the government have been reluctant to do anything to irritate China even now.  It’s not just us that stated the risk was low. 

After this is over, what will be found out and how much damage did the CCP do. From what I understand no one could gain access to Wuhan to see for themselves, even now samples aren’t being handed over I believe.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2020)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251606098974474244
A thread outlining the major points. I take back what I said previously. The government really have screwed us here. Maybe the end for Boris when this is all over? We can but hope.
		
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To be honest I'm not 100% sure this changes much for me. Each country is getting the response based on the competence, preparedness and priorities of their respective governments. I think the fascinating thing with this is that there are some very hard and sobering metrics to compare countries, although as has been seen, even those get at times arguably deliberately muddled (so are we counting deaths in care homes or not, how many more in Wuhan?).   As Tiger says, we are where we are, and we are mostly where I expected us to be based on the current government and talent we have in the cabinet to step up when the MP is incapacitated.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But potentially has some catastrophic consequences if you are the person at the top.
		
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From the ST article, this morning, it would seem the "person at the top" has done very little in the way of leading...


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			From the ST article, this morning, it would seem the "person at the top" has done very little in the way of leading...
		
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You can understand that over the last couple of weeks, but he did create his cabinet of mostly 'bang average at best' performers, so he does bear some responsibility for that.  Before that I really think he had to do a lot of growing up very quickly, he started off with his usual schtik as he's well known for not being a details guy, even a bit popularist Trumpy, saying he's been shaking hands etc, etc. But to be fair realised that following that approach was not the best so changed his tack a bit to be a bit more like a national leader.  But one could argue that, according to the article, by that stage a lot of damage had already been done and then he got the damn thing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be honest I'm not 100% sure this changes much for me. Each country is getting the response based on the competence, preparedness and priorities of their respective governments. I think the fascinating thing with this is that there are some very hard and sobering metrics to compare countries, although as has been seen, even those get at times arguably deliberately muddled (so are we counting deaths in care homes or not, how many more in Wuhan?).   As Tiger says, we are where we are, and we are mostly where I expected us to be based on the current government and talent we have in the cabinet to step up when the MP is incapacitated.
		
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The Scotland figures now include deaths in care homes and at home where there is strong evidence that the person had the virus.


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## Slab (Apr 19, 2020)

Is this just a political thread now?

Day 32 of curfew, went to a shop for the first time yesterday since it started, my wife had done the two previous trips. Pretty much everything in stock , no queue and only a handful of customers
Sat and Wed are our allocated shopping days, can't leave the house outside of that except for medical reasons or with a permit
Only one new case in the last 6 days and no new deaths, I hope thats a good sign for the bigger picture here


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No, no, no, this is far too serious to simply write the problem off as “some getting what they want while others struggle”.
It’s not about a scapegoat it’s about identifying how the problem has happened and preventing it in the future.
How on on earth you equate the public panic buying toilet roll against NHS Staff having their lives put at risk is beyond me.
Rather than think the public are looking for a scapegoat twist it on its head and realise the public are looking for a hero to step up and sort it out.
		
Click to expand...

S R isn't saying that what happened is the best way, but it is the way it is/ was done. Because different Trusts were left to their own devices as to what and when stuff was procured.
If you were in charge of Trust A procurement and you played it like Joseph of Egypt and ordered more than necessary seeing a dire need in the future, and 
the procurement team in Trust B didn't see what the fuss was and prioritised other things, then you have what SR described.
Thats what happens when you devolve.
If, however, the NHS had decided that epidemic/pandemic equipment should be ordered/stored etc on a national basis, then ,Yes, you can blame the head of NHS. Then maybe the Health minister
After all this , I suspect the latter view may be the dominant one in quite a few scenarios in the NHS


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## garyinderry (Apr 19, 2020)

Chris Whitty Oct 2018


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## User62651 (Apr 19, 2020)

Slab said:



			Is this just a political thread now?

Day 32 of curfew, went to a shop for the first time yesterday since it started, my wife had done the two previous trips. Pretty much everything in stock , no queue and only a handful of customers
Sat and Wed are our allocated shopping days, can't leave the house outside of that except for medical reasons or with a permit
Only one new case in the last 6 days and no new deaths, I hope thats a good sign for the bigger picture here
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like your govt have managed this situation very well, acted quickly and decisively with a proper shutdown unlike some others. New Zealand another excellent example.
It is political here now because of the historic underfunding of state healthcare, lack of PPE for docs/nurses/carers, open airports and perceived underplaying of virus seriousness early on.
There was a bit of national rallying when PM was ill but as frustration and anger increases and the more people die, many arguably needlessly, the more the blame game on govt and WHO, China etc gets fuelled.
UK remains a very divided place politically. Govt feel they are above answering tricky questions so journalists dig and uncover, then for govt it's cover up, deny or deflect time and trust vanishes. Tbh plain honesty would be the best approach but that is a very very rare thing in UK politics and therein lies the problem. 
Governed Cuomo in NY state is so respected because he tells the honest brutal truth.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			S R isn't saying that what happened is the best way, but it is the way it is/ was done. Because different Trusts were left to their own devices as to what and when stuff was procured.
If you were in charge of Trust A procurement and you played it like Joseph of Egypt and ordered more than necessary seeing a dire need in the future, and
the procurement team in Trust B didn't see what the fuss was and prioritised other things, then you have what SR described.
Thats what happens when you devolve.
If, however, the NHS had decided that epidemic/pandemic equipment should be ordered/stored etc on a national basis, then ,Yes, you can blame the head of NHS. Then maybe the Health minister
After all this , I suspect the latter view may be the dominant one in quite a few scenarios in the NHS
		
Click to expand...

You’re doing what SR assummed, ie, people are trying to play a blame game, THEY ARE NOT.

Colchester asked Homer a direct question due to Homer’s unique (from a forum point of view) position of unfortunately working at the sharp end.

SR jumped in and started the blame game, Colchester then explained he wasn’t doing that!

We are we are with the crisis, and, as posted previously, rather than looking back and pointing fingers we need to address the situation going forward, only the Government are in such a position to get a grip of the PPE and get a true picture of what is out there.

Again, it is only people like yourself and SR mentioning what trusts may or may not of done in the past, that’s irrelevant, we need to move forward and sort the here and now.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 19, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			As you did.
The WHO may be ones to ask, but you have to say after South Korea was so affected by SARS they have taken steps to reduce any possible issues if anything happened again..as we are seeing now. Perhaps we need to stop things like this are a "once in a lifetime" or similar event, and accept that we are so global in our ways now that we must look at how things have gone and *take the according measures for next time (which there surely will be)*. Therefore we must take advise from South Korea and see how it has prepared itself.
		
Click to expand...

It's all a risk analysis isn't it. Probability, impact and all that, then what mitigating measures can we take or want to take. If you're not prepared or have mitigating plans in place you can execute very quickly then the response will generally be not ideal. As some countries are finding.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 19, 2020)

Why is there no figure quoted for recoveries in The UK please?


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## Mudball (Apr 19, 2020)

So the ST wrote BoJo’s government obit today... lies, deny, avoid, distract. They did get somethings right (eg opening the money taps, get Nightingale running, testing) f-Ed up something’s (lack of PPE, denial).  

Today’s Briefing is going to be testy. Which poor bugger will draw the short straw.  What does the spin rule book say here
1) send a weak lamb to slaughter and take one for the team or 
2) send the best option - Sunak (?) to bat it out. Even send BoJo who can play the sympathy card.  

Surely there might someone accepting bets on this.. I would expect some kind of ‘PM’s message’


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's all a risk analysis isn't it. Probability, impact and all that, then what mitigating measures can we take or want to take. If you're not prepared or have mitigating plans in place you can execute very quickly then the response will generally be not ideal. As some countries are finding.
		
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I wasnt playing any game. I attempted to explain how the system works now and why we were experiencing some problems with supply.

You and some others are jumping on the blame band wagon being rolled out by the press, I think it's a disgraceful way for people to be acting at this time, it makes me cringe the way the normal suspects are suddenly using the powers of hindsight to drip away with ' You didnt want to do that you should have done this'  Its petty and political sniping at its worst.

The Government arnt perfect, none are but please let's drop the armchair political 'all seeing eye' attitudes.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So the ST wrote BoJo’s government obit today... lies, deny, avoid, distract. They did get somethings right (eg opening the money taps, get Nightingale running, testing) f-Ed up something’s (lack of PPE, denial). 

Today’s Briefing is going to be testy. Which poor bugger will draw the short straw.  What does the spin rule book say here
1) send a weak lamb to slaughter and take one for the team or
2) send the best option - Sunak (?) to bat it out. Even send BoJo who can play the sympathy card. 

Surely there might someone accepting bets on this.. I would expect some kind of ‘PM’s message’
		
Click to expand...

I suspect they’ll send Gove. As much as I dislike his morals, principles and overall personality (😉), he is an absolute master at answering questions without actually saying anything new or interesting. He is a beige bulldog.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So the ST wrote BoJo’s government obit today... lies, deny, avoid, distract. They did get somethings right (eg opening the money taps, get Nightingale running, testing) f-Ed up something’s (lack of PPE, denial). 

Today’s Briefing is going to be testy. Which poor bugger will draw the short straw.  What does the spin rule book say here
1) send a weak lamb to slaughter and take one for the team or
2) send the best option - Sunak (?) to bat it out. Even send BoJo who can play the sympathy card. 

Surely there might someone accepting bets on this.. I would expect some kind of ‘PM’s message’
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they should ask you to do it, you seem to have a better grip on the situation than they do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2020)

Lets hope it’s just a 24hr delay!
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...protective-equipment-for-nhs-delayed-11975429


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re doing what SR assummed, ie, people are trying to play a blame game, THEY ARE NOT.

Colchester asked Homer a direct question due to Homer’s unique (from a forum point of view) position of unfortunately working at the sharp end.

SR jumped in and started the blame game, Colchester then explained he wasn’t doing that!

We are we are with the crisis, and, as posted previously, rather than looking back and pointing fingers we need to address the situation going forward, only the Government are in such a position to get a grip of the PPE and get a true picture of what is out there.

Again, it is only people like yourself and SR mentioning what trusts may or may not of done in the past, that’s irrelevant, we need to move forward and sort the here and now.
		
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No, I am not doing any blame game at all- neither do I see SR doing that either.
We are simply saying how this situation about PPE has arisen because of different Trusts having the ordering authority, therefore, at this time, it isn't fair or helpful to blame the government.
And I am far from saying no other action is necessary. Look at post 5859 for my take on this. I suggest it is as radical, if not more, than others here.
We need urgent action, get things going-not criticising what has or has not been done in the past( not now, anyway).
My suggestions are more akin to grabbing the wheel to steer the ship away from the rocks, than it is to gather the crew together to argue about what to do next.😀


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 19, 2020)

I would say this is the job of the Health Secretary .
He needs to step in and coordinate the Trusts
He has took his eye off his own job.
After all this is over people will ask “ who’s in charge of Health.”
If he can’t do it put someone there who can.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 19, 2020)

My 95 yr old dad is in hospital after a fall
He is now +ve - although currently with relatively mild symptoms - fever & cough but doing well on O2 - and in good spirits
TBH I was expecting this but still distressing
However, being in Italy brings some perspective and hope - as we know of some older people doing ok (though of course we know many others now who have not)

As with most things its just a matter of seeing how things play out


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 19, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			My 95 yr old dad is in hospital after a fall
He is now +ve - although currently with relatively mild symptoms - fever & cough but doing well on O2 - and in good spirits
TBH I was expecting this but still distressing
However, being in Italy brings some perspective and hope - as we know of some older people doing ok (though of course we know many others now who have not)

As with most things its just a matter of seeing how things play out
		
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I hope he gets well soon, it's good to hear he's in good spirits.
My dad had to go into a home this time last year and you're constantly on tenterhooks as they're the most vulnerable group in society.


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## pendodave (Apr 19, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			My 95 yr old dad is in hospital after a fall
He is now +ve - although currently with relatively mild symptoms - fever & cough but doing well on O2 - and in good spirits
TBH I was expecting this but still distressing
However, being in Italy brings some perspective and hope - as we know of some older people doing ok (though of course we know many others now who have not)

As with most things its just a matter of seeing how things play out
		
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Good luck to him.
I hope we don't get to the point at which going into hospital carries a significant risk of picking it up. I've not seen any stats here about how many people contract it after entry. It's the sort of thing they keep an eye on for other infections, so I'd  imagine it's available somewhere.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			My 95 yr old dad is in hospital after a fall
He is now +ve - although currently with relatively mild symptoms - fever & cough but doing well on O2 - and in good spirits
TBH I was expecting this but still distressing
However, being in Italy brings some perspective and hope - as we know of some older people doing ok (though of course we know many others now who have not)

As with most things its just a matter of seeing how things play out
		
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Best wishes to him, you and yours Iain. Don't weaken, we'll get through this eventually.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Good luck to him.
I hope we don't get to the point at which going into hospital carries a significant risk of picking it up. I've not seen any stats here about how many people contract it after entry. It's the sort of thing they keep an eye on for other infections, so I'd  imagine it's available somewhere.
		
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TBH I think there is obviously a higher risk (that was what I had more or less expected)
He is not the 1st of may family to get it although he is the most vulnerable
However, its not always a bad thing - I expect many people to contract this over the next 6 months - and if more vulnerable or at greater risk of worsening the reality is you are still better off in hospital IMO

Anyway - he is still doing well so lets wait and see 
.......plus he has a lot to look forward to - as my harshest critic he loved my post-competition updates - if only to screech _*How many?*_


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## Kellfire (Apr 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Why is there no figure quoted for recoveries in The UK please?
		
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You keep banging this drum as if you can’t do the simple maths yourself. Take the death percentage. Subtract from 100. That’s the survival percentage.


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## yandabrown (Apr 19, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You keep banging this drum as if you can’t do the simple maths yourself. Take the death percentage. Subtract from 100. That’s the survival percentage.
		
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You might just need to factor in the "still got it" percentage.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 19, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You keep banging this drum as if you can’t do the simple maths yourself. Take the death percentage. Subtract from 100. That’s the survival percentage.
		
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What about the unrecorded deaths in care homes and at home.
Anybody's guess.?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 19, 2020)

Fff


Kaz said:



			I spent most of yesterday looking forward to my supermarket trip today. Went this morning and enjoyed the whole experience - one of the highlights of my week!

What have I become!? 

Click to expand...

I dread the supermarket tbh 

The one unknown environment for me 

Home appears safe. As it can be

Work is as safe as it can be.

I'm going Tesco after work Wednesday after my early shift so fingers crossed not too busy


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## Mudball (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe they should ask you to do it, you seem to have a better grip on the situation than they do.
		
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I would.. pl vote for me next time.. I will have my pasta colander on my head.. 





bluewolf said:



			I suspect they’ll send Gove. As much as I dislike his morals, principles and overall personality (😉), he is an absolute master at answering questions without actually saying anything new or interesting. He is a beige bulldog.
		
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Bingo.. He did attempt to ... deflect .. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251802764126179332


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## pauljames87 (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's definitely the biggest risk of infection at the moment.

This was my second trip since the lockdown started. First time I was very nervous about the whole thing but my local Sainsbury has it very well organised - supervised queue to get in with social distancing. One in, one out and not many in the shop, no queues at the checkouts. Also people generally doing what the can to stay out of each other's way. I'm impressed
		
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Even before covid I had been using scan as you shop. I use Tesco one more but Sainsbury's I use one on my phone if I need

I've taken to printed out lists on paper to avoid touching my phone 
Scan and pack items

Pay at self check out

Leave lol


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## Fish (Apr 19, 2020)

As of 9am 19 April, 482,063 tests have concluded, with 21,626 tests on 18 April. 

372,967 people have been tested of which 120,067 tested positive. 

As of 5pm on 18 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 16,060 have sadly died.

Thus 596 died in last 24hrs.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I spent most of yesterday looking forward to my supermarket trip today. Went this morning and enjoyed the whole experience - one of the highlights of my week!

What have I become!? 

Click to expand...

I'm even more concerned that I daren't go shopping in the supermarket if I can avoid it! I'm becoming a hand-washing paranoid!


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## drdel (Apr 19, 2020)

It seems that age, and obesity are major factors in fatalities. Being male is also a risk. 

So perhaps it really is 'Man Flu' 😀


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## pendodave (Apr 19, 2020)

Fish said:



			As of 9am 19 April, 482,063 tests have concluded, with 21,626 tests on 18 April.

372,967 people have been tested of which 120,067 tested positive.

As of 5pm on 18 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 16,060 have sadly died.

Thus 596 died in last 24hrs.
		
Click to expand...

Excuse my statistical ocd, but 596 people didn't die in the last 24 hours. 596 deaths were officially recorded, many of which happened before yesterday.
It's an important distinction.
I can no more leave this unsaid than my mother can look at crossed knives...


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## AmandaJR (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			We've been washing the shopping when we get it home. 

Click to expand...

Never mind the post!


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 19, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You keep banging this drum as if you can’t do the simple maths yourself. Take the death percentage. Subtract from 100. That’s the survival percentage.
		
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OK I will give an example from The World figures for COVID-19

The first figure is confirmed, 2nd Recovered, 3rd Deaths.

You will notice Kellfire that there is no recovery figure for UK, hence my question and it is NOT deducting the death % from the confirmed.

Really hope this makes sense as The UK is the only Country from the list with no recoveries




United States
740,746
66,676
39,158


Spain
195,944
77,357
20,639


Italy
175,925
44,927
23,227


Germany
144,124
80,584
4,548


United Kingdom
120,067
-
16,060


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

Gotta love Jenny on the briefing, answering the BBC - its about time we could have an adult discussion about PPE.


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## rosecott (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I spent most of yesterday looking forward to my supermarket trip today. Went this morning and enjoyed the whole experience - one of the highlights of my week!

What have I become!? 

Click to expand...

Trolley Dolly?


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Domestic Goddess 

Click to expand...

Sorry Kaz, I just couldn't stop myself.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 19, 2020)

Please don't take this as making light of human suffering. That is absolutely the opposite of my feelings on the subject.
Nevertheless, and inconveniences not withstanding, I'm discovering how much I enjoy the peace, quiet, and comfort of my home.
The social distancing is bothering me much less than it might have when I was a much younger man.


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## bobmac (Apr 19, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Please don't take this as making light of human suffering. That is absolutely the opposite of my feelings on the subject.
Nevertheless, and inconveniences not withstanding, I'm discovering how much I enjoy the peace, quiet, and comfort of my home.
The social distancing is bothering me much less than it might have when I was a much younger man.
		
Click to expand...

It's the opposite where I am.
With everyone off work, the village is packed with doggers and jog walkers joggers and dog walkers


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## bobmac (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry Kaz, I just couldn't stop myself.

View attachment 30068

Click to expand...

Ok Kaz, you can have the last loo roll


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## Mudball (Apr 19, 2020)

From the BBC... 

The Foreign Office had estimated between 300,000 and one million Britons were travelling abroad after the coronavirus was declared a pandemic in March.


WTF... the range is massive ... I thought we had systems which count who comes in and goes out.. 

Secondly... while some travel is inevitable... what were a million Brits thinking ??


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## Imurg (Apr 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			From the BBC...

The Foreign Office had estimated between 300,000 and one million Britons were travelling abroad after the coronavirus was declared a pandemic in March.


WTF... the range is massive ... I thought we had systems which count who comes in and goes out..

Secondly... while some travel is inevitable... what were a million Brits thinking ??
		
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Well....abroad is quite a big place......some may have been on long breaks that may have started early in the year, some would have been on around the world trips for a year or more....the list has endless possibilities


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

Just a brief musing.... many people have expressed disbelief at China's numbers, what about Germany's? Do we view Germany with the same distrust? Just a musing, not really bothered either way.


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## hovis (Apr 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			From the BBC...

The Foreign Office had estimated between 300,000 and one million Britons were travelling abroad after the coronavirus was declared a pandemic in March.


WTF... the range is massive ... I thought we had systems which count who comes in and goes out..

Secondly... while some travel is inevitable... what were a million Brits thinking ??
		
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i was thinking that I'd just paid £700 to go skiing in a region of Italy that had zero cases of coronavirus.   add that to the fact that the British government where saying it was ok to travel. the tour operator was saying you'll lose your money if you cancel too.  so i went march 7th and was flown home march 9th!!!😩


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just a brief musing.... many people have expressed disbelief at China's numbers, what about Germany's? Do we view Germany with the same distrust? Just a musing, not really bothered either way.
		
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Arent Germany just showing numbers of people who have died because of the virus as opposed to some other countries that are showing numbers of people who died with the virus on their system and had an underline medical issue ? 

Isn’t there also something about their level of testing belong as well ? 

I can certainly see China masking numbers but not sure about Germany


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## hovis (Apr 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Arent Germany just showing numbers of people who have died because of the virus as opposed to some other countries that are showing numbers of people who died with the virus on their system and had an underline medical issue ?
		
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that was my belief too


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## Fish (Apr 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Excuse my statistical ocd, but 596 people didn't die in the last 24 hours. 596 deaths were officially recorded, many of which happened before yesterday.
It's an important distinction.
I can no more leave this unsaid than my mother can look at crossed knives...
		
Click to expand...


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Amanda .. I am going to disagree.. this is ultra omnishambles from the Govt. apparently there is PPE but they could not get it out in sufficient quantity and quality to the front line.

Would we ask our Army boys and girls to go to the frontline but not give them guns & armour. Every frontline worker without PPE is at risk. The new PHE guideline of work without ppe is diabolical. Drs and nurses signed up to save lives not to kill themselves.

Our local GP is buying PPE directly from Far East, Germany etc. They have turned to fund raising platforms to get this.

I speak as a husband of an NHS worker and I know the number of calls they have been on trying to figure out PPE and guidelines. She still does her job but every time she goes to her clinic, we as a family say a silent prayer. Every time she coughs, I sh*t myself.

So every time I hear some one from the frontline berates the lack of PPE, I feel like throwing the remote at the TV.

Without people like Fish, we would be in a worse place. But unfortunately we can’t say we have done enough... Hannock’s magic wand is the same as May’s magic money tree..

.. rant over
		
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We have had plenty troops killed on the front line because of substandard equipment.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 19, 2020)

hovis said:



			i was thinking that I'd just paid £700 to go skiing in a region of Italy that had zero cases of coronavirus.   add that to the fact that the British government where saying it was ok to travel. the tour operator was saying you'll lose your money if you cancel too.  so i went march 7th and was flown home march 9th!!!😩
		
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In your defence many Brits followed a similar line of thinking (although by March 7th there was at least one case in every Northern region and schools and churches had already been closed) - this was just bad advice you were given
But out of interest where did you fly in to?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've been leaving all post in the vestibule for a few days before opening it! 

Click to expand...

Likewise


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## USER1999 (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've been leaving all post in the vestibule for a few days before opening it! 

Click to expand...

I would, but we only have a porch, so it stays in that. 😄


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## Wolf (Apr 19, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			We have had plenty troops killed on the front line because of substandard equipment.
		
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Absolutely right, stupid to compare with the armed forces especially using the hindsight analysis. First time i went to Iraq we never had any desert equipment but were expected to be in field concealed for days. We had only green kit so stood out against the terrain like a boil on a strippers tits.  Not to mention other kit we needed but never got at all the entire time we were there first time round.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 19, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I would, but we only have a porch, so it stays in that. 😄
		
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I get my post in the west wing .
I don’t have to stand on it then.


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## hovis (Apr 19, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			In your defence many Brits followed a similar line of thinking (although by March 7th there was at least one case in every Northern region and schools and churches had already been closed) - this was just bad advice you were given
But out of interest where did you fly in to?
		
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flew into turin then transferred to sestriere


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Absolutely right, stupid to compare with the armed forces especially using the hindsight analysis. First time i went to Iraq we never had any desert equipment but were expected to be in field concealed for days. We had only green kit so stood out against the terrain like a boil on a strippers tits.  Not to mention other kit we needed but never got at all the entire time we were there first time round.
		
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Genuine question.
Who would you blame for that.
Your commanding officer or MOD?


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## rosecott (Apr 19, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Please don't take this as making light of human suffering. That is absolutely the opposite of my feelings on the subject.
Nevertheless, and inconveniences not withstanding, I'm discovering how much I enjoy the peace, quiet, and comfort of my home.
The social distancing is bothering me much less than it might have when I was a much younger man.
		
Click to expand...

Not been out on any of the protest marches then?


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## Imurg (Apr 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Oh god.... I've gotten posh! 

Click to expand...

I had to Google vestibule....


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I had to Google vestibule....

Click to expand...

I think you wear it on your front


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Genuine question.
Who would you blame for that.
Your commanding officer or MOD?
		
Click to expand...

The MOD who convince politicians that they know what they are doing without asking the men on the ground.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think you wear it on your front
		
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Frontibule


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 19, 2020)

The issue with PPE can be attributed to all industries keeping stock to a bare minimum it keeps costs down.
Companies will only carry what they need at the time for a few months in advance the shorter time the better financial wise.
NHS are no different, along comes covid and we see the results.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 19, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			The issue with PPE can be attributed to all industries keeping stock to a bare minimum it keeps costs down.
Companies will only carry what they need at the time for a few months in advance the shorter time the better financial wise.
NHS are no different, along comes covid and we see the results.
		
Click to expand...

But prior to Covid, we would order enough to cover our 20 beds and there would be definite delivery dates and stock. Now we are up to stocking for 47 beds and competing with every other hospital locally and nationally with lack of stock and no guarantee on delivery. Add in we're like every other department in the trust especially A&E and like every hospital, we are limited in storage space so arguing to have ordered in advance or when we first had an inkling of the issues ahead would simply have meant we, along with every department struggling to store equipment safely and in lines with things like infection control


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But prior to Covid, we would order enough to cover our 20 beds and there would be definite delivery dates and stock. Now we are up to stocking for 47 beds and competing with every other hospital locally and nationally with lack of stock and no guarantee on delivery. Add in we're like every other department in the trust especially A&E and like every hospital, we are limited in storage space so arguing to have ordered in advance or when we first had an inkling of the issues ahead would simply have meant we, along with every department struggling to store equipment safely and in lines with things like infection control
		
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Homer, has your hospital run out of PPE. I thought you were very low last week.


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## Italian outcast (Apr 19, 2020)

hovis said:



			flew into turin then transferred to sestriere
		
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That makes your decision more understandable - there was little being reported around there when you went
I ask as it seems increasingly likely most flights into Milan and esp Bergamo then onwards to the slopes in Italy/Switz - mixing - and return - played some part in the dispersion - and probably contributed to the Bergamo burden


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But prior to Covid, we would order enough to cover our 20 beds and there would be definite delivery dates and stock. Now we are up to stocking for 47 beds and competing with every other hospital locally and nationally with lack of stock and no guarantee on delivery. Add in we're like every other department in the trust especially A&E and like every hospital, we are limited in storage space so arguing to have ordered in advance or when we first had an inkling of the issues ahead would simply have meant we, along with every department struggling to store equipment safely and in lines with things like infection control
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps we then need to look at having emergency stock in a central warehouse that can be distributed from there rather than trying to source it from all over the planet  in competition with other countries.
Something needs to change going forward.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But prior to Covid, we would order enough to cover our 20 beds and there would be definite delivery dates and stock. Now we are up to stocking for 47 beds and competing with every other hospital locally and nationally with lack of stock and no guarantee on delivery. Add in we're like every other department in the trust especially A&E and like every hospital, we are limited in storage space so arguing to have ordered in advance or when we first had an inkling of the issues ahead would simply have meant we, along with every department struggling to store equipment safely and in lines with things like infection control
		
Click to expand...

I know a number of Trusts have got themselves Unit on an industrial estate. Cardiff have opted for a large one and look after a number of Trusts from the one Unit.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

Be interesting to know if Turkey got a better offer for the promised PPE


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I know a number of Trusts have got themselves Unit on an industrial estate. Cardiff have opted for a large one and look after a number of Trusts from the one Unit.
		
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Most TA Centres, sorry Army Reserve Centres have stacked of space at the mome6for holding any amount of kit. Could do with some out of the box thinking.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I know a number of Trusts have got themselves Unit on an industrial estate. Cardiff have opted for a large one and look after a number of Trusts from the one Unit.
		
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A perfect location for a national central depot would be the Army vehicle depot at Ashchurch near Tewkesbury. It has very large number of big storage buildings designed for storing military vehicles but looks pretty empty when I drive past.  It's about quater of a mile from the M5 and not far from the M42, M50 and M5/M4 interchange.


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## Wolf (Apr 19, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Genuine question.
Who would you blame for that.
Your commanding officer or MOD?
		
Click to expand...

Wasn't CO fault at all,  MOD were to blame once requisition orders went in failing to source the equipment and dispatch to the brigade not only in time for deployment but for also for duration of full tours and were hung out to dry for it. They simply didn't listen to the commanders or men on the ground and thought they knew best.


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## chellie (Apr 19, 2020)

Just seen this about a PPE delivery 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1251941146219208710


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I know a number of Trusts have got themselves Unit on an industrial estate. Cardiff have opted for a large one and look after a number of Trusts from the one Unit.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good idea.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sounds like a good idea.
		
Click to expand...

So, are we saying, that a centralised hub, from which Large stores of PPE etc can be distributed based on need, would be a good thing?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			So, are we saying, that a centralised hub, from which Large stores of PPE etc can be distributed based on need, would be a good thing?
		
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Yes, why not. It's not the way the NHS has operated for some time but we live and learn.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, why not. It's not the way the NHS has operated for some time but we live and learn.
		
Click to expand...

So then, if there was a pandemic preparedness test in 2016 codenamed Operation Cygnus, that specifically highlighted a lack of PPE as a major failure point in the UK’s ability to fight a pandemic. Why wouldn’t someone put such an obviously good idea in place?


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			So then, if there was a pandemic preparedness test in 2016 codenamed Operation Cygnus, that specifically highlighted a lack of PPE as a major failure point in the UK’s ability to fight a pandemic. Why wouldn’t someone put such an obviously good idea in place?
		
Click to expand...

Follow the money


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Follow the money
		
Click to expand...

But whose choice would it be been to centralise NHS purchasing of items such as PPE? Would it have been an NHS decision, or would it have been a Government decision?


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			So, are we saying, that a centralised hub, from which Large stores of PPE etc can be distributed based on need, would be a good thing?
		
Click to expand...

*Edit: *A bit like the huge one at Normanton in West Yorks. Think there's one down near London too. They already exist. *Edit: there's 7 of them dotted around the country.*


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



*Edit: *A bit like the huge one at Normanton in West Yorks. Think there's one down near London too. They already exist. *Edit: there's 7 of them dotted around the country.*

Click to expand...

Yes, but bigger. Containing more. And not Trust specific. A national stockpile.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But whose choice would it be been to centralise NHS purchasing of items such as PPE? Would it have been an NHS decision, or would it have been a Government decision?
		
Click to expand...

Who knows but if they work like the MOD, there is no way the NHS or any gover Agency would give up control of any part of their empire. Jobs for the boys syndrome. You have just got to look at all the sub branches of the NHS that are coming to light.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, but bigger. Containing more. And not Trust specific. A national stockpile.
		
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They aren't Trust specific. Normanton is huge, and is part of NHS Supply Chain - I can't speak for the others as I've not visited them. You've probably passed their trucks numerous times without realising it.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Who knows but if they work like the MOD, there is no way the NHS or any gover Agency would give up control of any part of their empire. Jobs for the boys syndrome. You have just got to look at all the sub branches of the NHS that are coming to light.
		
Click to expand...

I’m sure there’ll be plenty of blame to go around once the dust settles. I’m just struggling to see how this was not catered for when it was highlighted 3.5 years ago.


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			They aren't Trust specific. Normanton is huge, and is part of NHS Supply Chain - I can't speak for the others as I've not visited them. You've probably passed their trucks numerous times without realising it.
		
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I know the site as I’ve friends in Normanton. You’re right. It’s huge. But something in the way it’s set up isn’t working. I don’t know what it is as I’m learning on the fly.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			They aren't Trust specific. Normanton is huge, and is part of NHS Supply Chain - I can't speak for the others as I've not visited them. You've probably passed their trucks numerous times without realising it.
		
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bluewolf said:



			I know the site as I’ve friends in Normanton. You’re right. It’s huge. But something in the way it’s set up isn’t working. I don’t know what it is as I’m learning on the fly.
		
Click to expand...

Amazing what a quick read will do. NHS Supply Chain is no longer majority owned by DHL. Would you believe it?!? The Tories took NHS Supply back into state ownership, April 2018, and have centralised management of the Supply Chain sites to the Dept of Health offices in London.

And how many times do we hear the Tories are looking to privatise the NHS?


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## bluewolf (Apr 19, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Amazing what a quick read will do. NHS Supply Chain is no longer majority owned by DHL. Would you believe it?!? The Tories took NHS Supply back into state ownership, April 2018, and have centralised management of the Supply Chain sites to the Dept of Health offices in London.

And how many times do we hear the Tories are looking to privatise the NHS?
		
Click to expand...

Well, that is both good and bad news. Good that it’s becoming more centralised and State owned. Bad in that it throws doubt back into the Governments handling of necessary supplies. 

I’m flipping about more than my hands during a 20 yard chip shot here.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A perfect location for a national central depot would be the Army vehicle depot at Ashchurch near Tewkesbury. It has very large number of big storage buildings designed for storing military vehicles but looks pretty empty when I drive past.  It's about quater of a mile from the M5 and not far from the M42, M50 and M5/M4 interchange.
		
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised how many are actually full


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Apr 19, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Not been out on any of the protest marches then?
		
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Hardly. I did my share of that in the 1960s.


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## IainP (Apr 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			May have been mentioned before and if that is the case I apologise.

Why is there no figure for recoveries in The UK please?
		
Click to expand...

I did wonder if there was some uncertainty in defining 'recovered'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/healt...e-to-be-infected-with-covid-19-more-than-once


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You'd be surprised how many are actually full
		
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A mate of mine who was  REME Major retired a few years ago but worked at Ashchurch for the last 10 years of his service, he said the depot had been fairly underused for years.


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## drdel (Apr 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Wasn't CO fault at all,  MOD were to blame once requisition orders went in failing to source the equipment and dispatch to the brigade not only in time for deployment but for also for duration of full tours and were hung out to dry for it. They simply didn't listen to the commanders or men on the ground and thought they knew best.
		
Click to expand...

But just like the NHS Trusts the CO's were fiddling the priority codes and over ordering. This drove problem back to Germany, Brize, Bicester etc and logistics went into disarray for awhile.  Same as PPE requisitions have too many cooks stirring the pot.,


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## Fish (Apr 20, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Well, that is both good and bad news. Good that it’s becoming more centralised and State owned. Bad in that it throws doubt back into the Governments handling of necessary supplies. 

I’m flipping about more than my hands during a 20 yard chip shot here.
		
Click to expand...

But all the calls and instructions we, as couriers are getting nationwide, are not from a central source of the NHS and most definitely not from the government!


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## bluewolf (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			But all the calls and instructions we, as couriers are getting nationwide, are not from a central source of the NHS and most definitely not from the government!
		
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But how likely is it that a government controlled, centralised hub would need  couriers to move product? Surely they have trucks and drivers for that. Is it more likely that what you’re moving are the extra orders that the current logistics network can’t cope with?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2020)

We have now put out our last box of gowns. That's it. Technicians checking with central stores at the hospital but doubting there are any there either as they are usually distributed out on arrival. Not sure where that leaves our staff today as patient numbers over the weekend have again increased and seem to be bucking trends


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## Fish (Apr 20, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But how likely is it that a government controlled, centralised hub would need  couriers to move product? Surely they have trucks and drivers for that. Is it more likely that what you’re moving are the extra orders that the current logistics network can’t cope with?
		
Click to expand...

The majority of supplies across all goods required by pharmacies and hospitals alike, tend to come through AAH, who are in the main, a national (Independent) wholesaler.  You'll see these vehicles countrywide, plodding around local areas dropping off an array of daily supplies constantly being ordered (daily) direct from trusts and pharmacies on a daily basis. 

Like any wholesaler they will hold stock based on their trends of output at specific times of the year along with growth trends etc. 

As wholesalers, and like in other markets, there's more than them, Phoenix, Alliance and more..., but they are the big boys to some degree, they order in from all over the world based on costs, availability and compliance of the products, like any company, but they are in the main, a medical/healthcare distribution company and operate a hub & spoke operation across the country, so, with the pandemic starting in other countries weeks/months before us, the wholesalers or however those countries operate, would be already draining supplies from the same manufacturers across the world, so we have been last to the table, and as such, I doubt full orders have been received by the likes of AAH and others as manufacturers of the goods, even in this country, would be under the same kind of constraints that we have seen, with reduced workforces or even some closure's! 

My wife is a manager at a pharmacy so I'm fully aware of how the system _normally_ and is still working to some degree and how they're still ordering, and like you rightly state, some trusts and pharmacies are going out of the normal chains to keep a flow of supplies to meet their needs, or fill in the gaps or shortfalls of goods that turn up, without being pre-advised, as the amounts they are receiving are not what they're ordering, so they double up on ordering, hence why were seeing excess stock piles in some places, possibly more down to ordering in from various sources and then arriving all at once!

Some pharmacies and trusts/hospitals have had a direct delivery from the NHS, but this is totally new and not been known before, where gloves, masks and aprons just turned up, without ordering or going through head offices or any manner of normal ordering processes. Trying to find out where these originated from though, is like looking for the holy grail!


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## Slab (Apr 20, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We have now put out our last box of gowns. That's it. Technicians checking with central stores at the hospital but doubting there are any there either as they are usually distributed out on arrival. Not sure where that leaves our staff today as patient numbers over the weekend have again increased and seem to be bucking trends
		
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Hope its resupplied soon. If you don’t mind me asking (& I’m sure its already been addressed) but I know you work in a key sector but are you (& others like you) a key worker for the full 5 days a week?
I don’t know exactly what you do but IIRC its admin or resource based role meaning you’d still need ppe gear by being on location

Are they not able to release you for a couple of days each week to work from home, lessening the load on supplies and making it better/safer for you too?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2020)

Slab said:



			Hope its resupplied soon. If you don’t mind me asking (& I’m sure its already been addressed) but I know you work in a key sector but are you (& others like you) a key worker for the full 5 days a week?
I don’t know exactly what you do but IIRC its admin or resource based role meaning you’d still need ppe gear by being on location

Are they not able to release you for a couple of days each week to work from home, lessening the load on supplies and making it better/safer for you too?
		
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I was originally employed as the admin manager but no co-opted into doing things like staff rostering including all our agency nurses and those from other parts of the trust. Can't do this at home as the rostering system is a clanky old stand-alone piece of kit. Getting involved in a lot of planning stuff as a facilitator (minutes) for the escalation as it was, the peak (not sure we've seen it) and then what happens next. As I have a background in recruitment and medical recruitment I have also been working with those teams and our NHSP (NHS Professionals) team to fast track ID, health checks and DBS clearance for staff so they are able to work fully on the unit with sufficient clearance

I am also a fully trained HCA and so have been doing the odd bit of work on the unit when we've had our limited HCA's on days off or self-isolating. On those days I was/am PPE but on the admin side of things as I am not anywhere near bedspaces or withing 2m of any aerosol generating equipment, I am deemed safe in gloves and an FFP3 mask to attend to issues in the Covid based areas. We have sufficient gloves and as I am usually in infected areas for short periods of time, I am able to use the FFP3 mask throughout the shift so not really using too much in the way of stock.

I am also line managing the ward clerks who have been deemed key to take the incoming calls/'queries usually from relatives (or internal sources like bed management, pharmacy, labs). I am currently working 5 days a week usually from 7.00am-3.00pm so I am available at handover to deal with any issues. Those hours haven't been adhered to and have been more like 6.15-6.30 until 4.30-5.00 so longer than I'd like. HCA shifts are normal nursing shifts so usually 7.15am until 8.00pm


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## Slab (Apr 20, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I was originally employed as the admin manager but no co-opted into doing things like staff rostering including all our agency nurses and those from other parts of the trust. Can't do this at home as the rostering system is a clanky old stand-alone piece of kit. Getting involved in a lot of planning stuff as a facilitator (minutes) for the escalation as it was, the peak (not sure we've seen it) and then what happens next. As I have a background in recruitment and medical recruitment I have also been working with those teams and our NHSP (NHS Professionals) team to fast track ID, health checks and DBS clearance for staff so they are able to work fully on the unit with sufficient clearance

I am also a fully trained HCA and so have been doing the odd bit of work on the unit when we've had our limited HCA's on days off or self-isolating. On those days I was/am PPE but on the admin side of things as I am not anywhere near bedspaces or withing 2m of any aerosol generating equipment, I am deemed safe in gloves and an FFP3 mask to attend to issues in the Covid based areas. We have sufficient gloves and as I am usually in infected areas for short periods of time, I am able to use the FFP3 mask throughout the shift so not really using too much in the way of stock.

I am also line managing the ward clerks who have been deemed key to take the incoming calls/'queries usually from relatives (or internal sources like bed management, pharmacy, labs). I am currently working 5 days a week usually from 7.00am-3.00pm so I am available at handover to deal with any issues. Those hours haven't been adhered to and have been more like 6.15-6.30 until 4.30-5.00 so longer than I'd like. HCA shifts are normal nursing shifts so usually 7.15am until 8.00pm
		
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It sounds like you've got your hands full there & not much wiggle room to wfh. Cheers for taking the time out to reply

p.s i was thinking that the NHSP was something to do with where you have to stand in the correct place when someones making tea


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## bluewolf (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			The majority of supplies across all goods required by pharmacies and hospitals alike, tend to come through AAH, who are in the main, a national (Independent) wholesaler.  You'll see these vehicles countrywide, plodding around local areas dropping off an array of daily supplies constantly being ordered (daily) direct from trusts and pharmacies on a daily basis.

Like any wholesaler they will hold stock based on their trends of output at specific times of the year along with growth trends etc.

As wholesalers, and like in other markets, there's more than them, Phoenix, Alliance and more..., but they are the big boys to some degree, they order in from all over the world based on costs, availability and compliance of the products, like any company, but they are in the main, a medical/healthcare distribution company and operate a hub & spoke operation across the country, so, with the pandemic starting in other countries weeks/months before us, the wholesalers or however those countries operate, would be already draining supplies from the same manufacturers across the world, so we have been last to the table, and as such, I doubt full orders have been received by the likes of AAH and others as manufacturers of the goods, even in this country, would be under the same kind of constraints that we have seen, with reduced workforces or even some closure's!

My wife is a manager at a pharmacy so I'm fully aware of how the system _normally_ and is still working to some degree and how they're still ordering, and like you rightly state, some trusts and pharmacies are going out of the normal chains to keep a flow of supplies to meet their needs, or fill in the gaps or shortfalls of goods that turn up, without being pre-advised, as the amounts they are receiving are not what they're ordering, so they double up on ordering, hence why were seeing excess stock piles in some places, possibly more down to ordering in from various sources and then arriving all at once!

Some pharmacies and trusts/hospitals have had a direct delivery from the NHS, but this is totally new and not been known before, where gloves, masks and aprons just turned up, without ordering or going through head offices or any manner of normal ordering processes. Trying to find out where these originated from though, is like looking for the holy grail!
		
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Thanks Robin. That's an interesting explanation of current events. I'm just struggling to put together the entire supply chain in my head at the moment. I might have a dig around later to see if there's a detailed explanation knocking around regarding the ordering/storage of PPE at a national level and also how that is managed logistically. Can't at the moment as I'm in work...


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 20, 2020)

Slab said:



			It sounds like you've got your hands full there & not much wiggle room to wfh. Cheers for taking the time out to reply

p.s i was thinking that the NHSP was something to do with where you have to stand in the correct place when someones making tea 

Click to expand...

Given the situation I think I would be making my own tea.
We had a catering pot get about 50 cups out of it , it was huge.


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## Fish (Apr 20, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Thanks Robin. That's an interesting explanation of current events. I'm just struggling to put together the entire supply chain in my head at the moment. I might have a dig around later to see if there's a detailed explanation knocking around regarding the ordering/storage of PPE at a national level and also how that is managed logistically. Can't at the moment as I'm in work...
		
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I don't think hospitals, and especially pharmacies and care homes, who are also right on the frontline in need of PPE, have had to keep to specific internal stock levels before, most, like many companies over the years have little space for storage and have maximised space for the services they offer. 

We have, as a nation I think, become very used to a 'just in time' operation where EPOS systems and computerised in-house systems automatically reorder goods across the board for delivery the next-day.  Many hospitals and especially the other health areas I've mentioned have very limited storage facilities and have relied on goods arriving daily and put straight out to the relevant departments, what companies, including the medical profession have stores anymore?

This alone has contributed to shortages as the change in operations that procurement teams and technical managers have been used to, at their finger tips, has now been massively undone, and no doubt they are being bombarded with requests, and with all the national distribution companies stretched of supplies, it has led to the medical world sourcing goods from anywhere they can get their hands on it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2020)

An interesting interview on the BBC website today with Chris Hopson, chief executive of NHS Providers today. I've put in bold two key sentences, seemed key to me anyway. The first one is how tough it must be if you believe you have ordered correctly and then the wrong item turns up. This is a story I have heard many times over regarding suppliers from China over the years so it is nothing new. Not the time for it though.

The second sentence shows the scale of what is required. Mulitply that across the world for each country and no wonder there are supply issues. What would be interesting to know is how many were used previously per day?

Mr Hopson gave the example of *an expected consignment of 200,000 gowns from China which actually only contained 20,000 gowns when it arrived last week.*

"We know that with other orders, when the boxes were opened up and it said on the outside 'gowns', when you opened it up, they were actually masks," he said.

"But I suppose the question we will need to ask when all this is over is, actually, was the pandemic stock reserve that was meant to tide us over correctly configured?"

Mr Hopson added that while the 400,000 gowns would be welcome, *NHS staff were getting through approximately 150,000 gowns a day*.

"What we really need to get to is from the current rather hand-to-mouth approach to where sustainable supplies consistently and reliably arrive," he said.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			An interesting interview on the BBC website today with Chris Hopson, chief executive of NHS Providers today. I've put in bold two key sentences, seemed key to me anyway. The first one is how tough it must be if you believe you have ordered correctly and then the wrong item turns up. This is a story I have heard many times over regarding suppliers from China over the years so it is nothing new. Not the time for it though.

The second sentence shows the scale of what is required. Mulitply that across the world for each country and no wonder there are supply issues. What would be interesting to know is how many were used previously per day?

Mr Hopson gave the example of *an expected consignment of 200,000 gowns from China which actually only contained 20,000 gowns when it arrived last week.*

"We know that with other orders, when the boxes were opened up and it said on the outside 'gowns', when you opened it up, they were actually masks," he said.

"But I suppose the question we will need to ask when all this is over is, actually, was the pandemic stock reserve that was meant to tide us over correctly configured?"

Mr Hopson added that while the 400,000 gowns would be welcome, *NHS staff were getting through approximately 150,000 gowns a day*.

"What we really need to get to is from the current rather hand-to-mouth approach to where sustainable supplies consistently and reliably arrive," he said.

Click to expand...

That’s where your old fashioned store man/woman came in.
Any boxes of equipment were checked on arrival to make sure it was what it said on the box.
Is this happening or is it just stored and taken for granted that it’s what stated on the label.?


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## Mudball (Apr 20, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I had to Google vestibule....

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I am glad, i am not the only one..


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## huds1475 (Apr 20, 2020)

PPE question...

Is it not possible to have predominantly reusable, as opposed to disposable, items?

Accepting that any filters would need to be destroyed but gowns, masks, gloves etc???

Or is that just too inconvenient / expensive?

Disposable strikes me as a cost / convenience type compromise. 

A case of us being tied by the economic systems we've constructed for ourselves?

Or do I need something better to do with my time!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s where your old fashioned store man/woman came in.
Any boxes of equipment were checked on arrival to make sure it was what it said on the box.
Is this happening or is it just stored and taken for granted that it’s what stated on the label.?
		
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No, they are opening them on arrival and seeing then that the product inside is incorrect. They ordered gowns, the box says gowns, the contents are masks. The problem then though is they still don't have the correct product, the shortage is still there and they are waiting on the next shipment in. Chinese suppliers are a bit wild west in that sense, good luck in resolving that easily.


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s where your old fashioned store man/woman came in.
Any boxes of equipment were checked on arrival to make sure it was what it said on the box.
Is this happening or is it just stored and taken for granted that it’s what stated on the label.?
		
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From experience, Receipt and Despatch depts. at hospitals don't open boxes. R&D receive the box from the courier/haulier and deliver it to the Unit, e.g. ITU, and the staff will open the box and stack the shelves in their stock room.


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			PPE question...

Is it not possible to have predominantly reusable, as opposed to disposable, items?

Accepting that any filters would need to be destroyed but gowns, masks, gloves etc???

Or is that just too inconvenient / expensive?

Disposable strikes me as a cost / convenience type compromise.

A case of us being tied by the economic systems we've constructed for ourselves?

Or do I need something better to do with my time!!
		
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Disposable is cheaper. And from a Control of Infection perspective you take the gown/mask/gloves off, put them in a yellow bag and off they go to be incinerated. That said, every hospital has a sterilising dept which is huge but won't be kitted out for those type of items.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 20, 2020)

Covid-19 confirmed in my dad's nursing home😥. Local uni have 3D printed some visor PPE's and barrier nursing being performed on known cases. GP has been in and suspects about half a dozen have it but they're struggling to get them tested.
Very very worrying times.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2020)

Been talking with a neighbour who's better half works at a funeral directors... Advised the crem, just around the corner, is now not allowing anyone to attend funerals... Will be tough to deal with that...


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## Italian outcast (Apr 20, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Covid-19 confirmed in my dad's nursing home😥. Local uni have 3D printed some visor PPE's and barrier nursing being performed on known cases. GP has been in and suspects about half a dozen have it but they're struggling to get them tested.
Very very worrying times.
		
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Its a tough time for those of us in this situation

You've just got to put your faith in the system and in the folk looking after your dad - we mainly hear the bad news from these situations but there is also a lot of better stories as well - here's hoping for you and your dad (and others)

I just try to keep focussed on other day to day stuff - that helps


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## AmandaJR (Apr 20, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Covid-19 confirmed in my dad's nursing home😥. Local uni have 3D printed some visor PPE's and barrier nursing being performed on known cases. GP has been in and suspects about half a dozen have it but they're struggling to get them tested.
Very very worrying times.
		
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It must be exceptionally worrying for you. Hopefully he can stay well.


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

The number of deaths for Spain yesterday has been announced at 399. This is the first time in the 3's for a long time. Almeria region saw its first death yesterday after 4 clear days. Newly infected continues to be around the 2.5k each day.

Whilst we take some small measure of comfort in the trend we are seeing we mustn't forget that there another 399 families in great pain right now.


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## Fish (Apr 20, 2020)

Anyone with a golf or normal holiday trip to Spain later in the year may still be non-starter. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/11434941/spains-hotels-shut-end-year/


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			Anyone with a golf or normal holiday trip to Spain later in the year may still be non-starter.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/11434941/spains-hotels-shut-end-year/

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We don't want any of you germ laden Brits here!

It still to be voted on Robin. The President of Andalucia, which includes Malaga/south coast, wants hotels to be open by the beginning of Sept.


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## Wolf (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			Anyone with a golf or normal holiday trip to Spain later in the year may still be non-starter.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/11434941/spains-hotels-shut-end-year/

Click to expand...

We're due to be going to Costa Blanca start of August, in a Villa just for us so we could distance if travel is allowed but if its not then fully understand we won't be going.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			Anyone with a golf or normal holiday trip to Spain later in the year may still be non-starter.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/11434941/spains-hotels-shut-end-year/

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Ah well...that would seem to knacker our friendship group's holiday in Valencia and region in October...


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2020)

I won't be surprised if those in the at risk categories will find it almost impossible to book overseas trips for quite some time...


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 20, 2020)

I have just seen an information "advert" giving facts about covid19.
First one- the virus can live on hard surfaces for up to 72 hours.
Second one- there is no evidence that you can catch the virus from mail or postal packages.

Oh, yeh?  Course there's no evidence. There's no evidence that any particular person caught the virus from any particular source. But we can assume it is from likely places, obviously.
As for that "advice", my post is laying dormant for a day or two before I touch it. And then I do so as if it is contaminated. 
How much difference is there between the surface of an envelope and other surfaces?


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## Fish (Apr 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We don't want any of you germ laden Brits here!

It still to be voted on Robin. The President of Andalucia, which includes Malaga/south coast, wants hotels to be open by the beginning of Sept.
		
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Where does Benidorm figure in that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I have just seen an information "advert" giving facts about covid19.
First one- the virus can live on hard surfaces for up to 72 hours.
Second one- there is no evidence that you can catch the virus from mail or postal packages.

Oh, yeh?  Course there's no evidence. There's no evidence that any particular person caught the virus from any particular source. But we can assume it is from likely places, obviously.
As for that "advice", my post is laying dormant for a day or two before I touch it. And then I do so as if it is contaminated.
How much difference is there between the surface of an envelope and other surfaces?
		
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Is it something to do with the porous nature of the surface? The phrase 'hard surface' is common in talks about viruses, removing a virus etc so I guess that must have something to do with it. Just googled it, see below:

The absorbent natural fibres in cardboard, however, may cause the virus to dry up more quickly than on plastic and metal, suggests Vincent Munster, head of the virus ecology section at Rocky Mountain Laboratories and one of those who led the NIH study. “We speculate due to the porous material, it desiccates rapidly and might be stuck to the fibres,

I guess that hard surfaces are the optimum for viruses so they can survive on those the longest. Every other surface, it will survive for less time. Cardboard is approx 24 hours, it did not mention paper. The virus does not like heat apparently so put your post in a greenhouse for a day if you have one.


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## hovis (Apr 20, 2020)

what I want to know is how so many people are presenting themselves to hospital 4 weeks after the lockdown.  how are they catching it? is it the morons that break the rules, key workers or transmitted through cats 😂.  surely this number should be very low by now


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			Where does Benidorm figure in that.
		
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North but they want the same thing


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2020)

Her work has confirmed - Mrs SiLH is being furloughed after this week - finishes tomorrow...

Feels a bit guilty about being paid for not working.

Told her that her work needs her to not be working - as a charity they can't afford to keep paying her as their giving income has dropped off a cliff.


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2020)

The bunch of accountants Mrs Fundy work for acting like a typical bunch of accountants


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it something to do with the porous nature of the surface? The phrase 'hard surface' is common in talks about viruses, removing a virus etc so I guess that must have something to do with it. Just googled it, see below:

The absorbent natural fibres in cardboard, however, may cause the virus to dry up more quickly than on plastic and metal, suggests Vincent Munster, head of the virus ecology section at Rocky Mountain Laboratories and one of those who led the NIH study. “We speculate due to the porous material, it desiccates rapidly and might be stuck to the fibres,

I guess that hard surfaces are the optimum for viruses so they can survive on those the longest. Every other surface, it will survive for less time. Cardboard is approx 24 hours, it did not mention paper. The virus does not like heat apparently so put your post in a greenhouse for a day if you have one.
		
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That was my thinking before and despite the advert. If you and I and Mr Munster are correct, then it means there is a risk. Reduced compared with that on hard surfaces, but still a risk.
On top of which, much mail is plastic surfaced, or shiny surfaced, sonto my mind I feel the "advert" is totally irresponsible.


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## bobmac (Apr 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That was my thinking before and despite the advert. If you and I and Mr Munster are correct, then it means there is a risk. Reduced compared with that on hard surfaces, but still a risk.
On top of which, much mail is plastic surfaced, or shiny surfaced, sonto my mind I feel the "advert" is totally irresponsible.
		
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I've got some tight blue rubber gloves that I wear when I sort the post. When its all in the bin, I wash my gloved hands, dry them then take them off


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That was my thinking before and despite the advert. If you and I and Mr Munster are correct, then it means there is a risk. Reduced compared with that on hard surfaces, but still a risk.
On top of which, much mail is plastic surfaced, or shiny surfaced, sonto my mind I feel the "advert" is totally irresponsible.
		
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Similar for items sent in reinforced plastic bags. We rarely get much post, most things are emailed to me, but when it comes I open it, bin the packaging, wash my hands, come back, read it, wash my hands. It's about getting into a routine I guess.

The one that annoys me, I'm sure it annoys everyone, is the freebie stuff that gets put through the door. This really isn't the time for it and that stuff gets left on the floor for 2 days before going straight into the recycle bin.


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2020)

No junk mail for weeks now.


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## Imurg (Apr 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Similar for items sent in reinforced plastic bags. We rarely get much post, most things are emailed to me, but when it comes I open it, bin the packaging, wash my hands, come back, read it, wash my hands. It's about getting into a routine I guess.

The one that annoys me, I'm sure it annoys everyone, is the freebie stuff that gets put through the door. This really isn't the time for it and that stuff gets left on the floor for 2 days before going straight into the recycle bin.
		
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I think they've got the message around here...no junk mail for 2 weeks at least.....


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2020)

Believe our posties have refused to deliver 'junk mail'...


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## SatchFan (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			Where does Benidorm figure in that.
		
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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 20, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I think they've got the message around here...no junk mail for 2 weeks at least.....
		
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We still occasionally get the fliers through. No junk mail, sorry I didn't make that clear.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I've got some tight blue rubber gloves that I wear when I sort the post. When its all in the bin, I wash my gloved hands, dry them then take them off
		
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They have advised this is easiest way to cross contaminate 

Gloves hold more than skin

Could easily sort the post as you were then just wash your hands 

There's a few videos from drs on it


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## Papas1982 (Apr 20, 2020)

Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been submitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
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Sorry to hear of your troubles. Take care.


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## Imurg (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
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Sorry to hear that Dave...good luck with it.
Sad times....


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that Dave, if there's anything I can do to help let me know.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
Click to expand...

Not a situation anyone wants to have to deal with in 'normal' times... Everything just seems doubly difficult presently... Take care...


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## huds1475 (Apr 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Disposable is cheaper. And from a Control of Infection perspective you take the gown/mask/gloves off, put them in a yellow bag and off they go to be incinerated. That said, every hospital has a sterilising dept which is huge but won't be kitted out for those type of items.
		
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Understand its cheaper.

I think the point i was trying to make was that, in going for cheap / disposable / convenience have we put ourselves over the barrel?

We're now at the mercy of a disrupted global chain that can't, for obvious reasons, cope with unprecedented demand.

So, do we continue to plow that furrow, or throw away convenience and think about other ways to solve the problem? I'd rather use time/energy to look at ways to solve problems than sitting there pointing the finger.

I was asking about re-use as I can't think, other than cost / convenience, of any good reason why a large percentage can't be reused (washable gowns instead of paper).

If not an option now, hopefully there are other options i can't think of then!

Looking to the future nations might hopefully think carefully about their ability to be self sufficient for items required to defend against threats. 

It's not like this one wasn't on the risk register!


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## huds1475 (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
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Sorry to hear. Stay strong


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## fundy (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
Click to expand...


Sorry to hear


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## Stuart_C (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
Click to expand...

My thoughts are with you and your family at this awful time Dave.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
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Awful news Dave and thoughts with your family


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2020)

Sorry to hear the news Dave.


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## Hobbit (Apr 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Understand its cheaper.

I think the point i was trying to make was that, in going for cheap / disposable / convenience have we put ourselves over the barrel?

We're now at the mercy of a disrupted global chain that can't, for obvious reasons, cope with unprecedented demand.

So, do we continue to plow that furrow, or throw away convenience and think about other ways to solve the problem? I'd rather use time/energy to look at ways to solve problems than sitting there pointing the finger.

I was asking about re-use as I can't think, other than cost / convenience, of any good reason why a large percentage can't be reused (washable gowns instead of paper).

If not an option now, hopefully there are other options i can't think of then!

Looking to the future nations might hopefully think carefully about their ability to be self sufficient for items required to defend against threats.

It's not like this one wasn't on the risk register!
		
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A decent mask, with filter, could be issued to each individual as their personal equipment. Only the filter would need to be changed. These have been issued to the engineers working for my last employer - I know one of them was in Excel Nightingale today. 

Gloves; I think would have to be disposables. Two things on that one, 1) how thick they'd have to be to last being cleaned, and 2) having only one pair of gloves would mean only dealing with one patient. Thinking of how many staff are needed to roll a ward full of patient, and the change of gloves required. 

Gowns; there are reusables available but, again, its how thick they have to be to last.

And then its equipping the hospital with more sterilising units. Bigger buildings... for one global pandemic every 100 years. Its worth looking at, along with all the options, e.g. bigger stock holdings of current types & local manufacturing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A decent mask, with filter, could be issued to each individual as their personal equipment. Only the filter would need to be changed. These have been issued to the engineers working for my last employer - I know one of them was in Excel Nightingale today.

Gloves; I think would have to be disposables. Two things on that one, 1) how thick they'd have to be to last being cleaned, and 2) having only one pair of gloves would mean only dealing with one patient. Thinking of how many staff are needed to roll a ward full of patient, and the change of gloves required.

Gowns; there are reusables available but, again, its how thick they have to be to last.

And then its equipping the hospital with more sterilising units. Bigger buildings... for one global pandemic every 100 years. Its worth looking at, along with all the options, e.g. bigger stock holdings of current types & local manufacturing.
		
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Some very good points especially regarding the face masks.

On the plus side we have received a consignment of gowns. Enough, given the number of patients (still bucking the trend and up to 27 Covid) to last until Wednesday. Hopefully the involvement of our matron, Clinical Director and Chief Exec today will see some results and sort out the issues we are having.


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## Paperboy (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
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Sorry to hear that mate, stay safe!


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## Fish (Apr 20, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some very good points especially regarding the face masks.

On the plus side we have received a consignment of gowns. Enough, given the number of patients (still bucking the trend and up to 27 Covid) to last until Wednesday. Hopefully the involvement of our matron, Clinical Director and Chief Exec today will see some results and sort out the issues we are having.
		
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Have you placed any emergency orders through NSDR who send out prepacked kits of 100 of each item, and you can request multiple packs/ kits.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			Have you placed any emergency orders through NSDR who send out prepacked kits of 100 of each item, and you can request multiple packs/ kits.
		
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To be brutally honest I don't know but I have just Whatsapp'd the senior technician to suggest he looks at this asap in the morning. Thanks for the heads up


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Understand its cheaper.

I think the point i was trying to make was that, in going for cheap / disposable / convenience have we put ourselves over the barrel?

We're now at the mercy of a disrupted global chain that can't, for obvious reasons, cope with unprecedented demand.

So, do we continue to plow that furrow, or throw away convenience and think about other ways to solve the problem? I'd rather use time/energy to look at ways to solve problems than sitting there pointing the finger.

I was asking about re-use as I can't think, other than cost / convenience, of any good reason why a large percentage can't be reused (washable gowns instead of paper).

If not an option now, hopefully there are other options i can't think of then!

Looking to the future nations might hopefully think carefully about their ability to be self sufficient for items required to defend against threats.

It's not like this one wasn't on the risk register!
		
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Maybe say10% of kit should be reusable and used when stocks are low.
That way you can’t run out completely.
And wouldn’t need so much storage space.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
Click to expand...

Thinking of you and this must be so tough. In normal times it would be hard enough but with all the constraints at the moment it's multiplied. Take care.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 20, 2020)

I don't know you and never met you, but wish you all the best at this difficult time.


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## Robster59 (Apr 20, 2020)

A friend of mine was walking out yesterday and on her daily exercise.  A young moron on a bicycle was coming down the pavement and wouldn't move out of the way.  She asked him to keep his distance and he swore at her and said he had Covid.  She responded by saying that's fine, I'm an ICU Nurse in a Covid ward (which she is) and maybe she has it as well.  He promptly headed in the opposite direction.  This is the kind of mentality that is still out there.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
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So sorry to hear that. Did he have Covid?


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## Papas1982 (Apr 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So sorry to hear that. Did he have Covid?
		
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Edited to simply say "yes"


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## 2blue (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Edited to simply say "yes"
		
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I get that......  sorry to hear your bad news.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Edited to simply say "yes"
		
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I'm so sorry  for you all, wish I had better words to comfort you, my apologies if I have said the wrong words 😕


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## Papas1982 (Apr 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm so sorry  for you all, wish I had better words to comfort you, my apologies if I have said the wrong words 😕
		
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Nah. 

It was my sarcastic nature and my friend Stella at fauot not you. 

Thanks for everyone's kind words.


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## patricks148 (Apr 21, 2020)

email from the club today after several people had been spotted at the weekend playing the course


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2020)

Another day and another rise in numbers coming in. We are getting some going out (mainly to wards so getting better which is good news, but not all) but overall we are rising. I don't know if this is the case in other areas other than here as numbers in adjacent trusts seem to be steadying and if not, why the Reading area should see a continued spike.


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## Beezerk (Apr 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			email from the club today after several people had been spotted at the weekend playing the course
		
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My club did a facebook post showing divots which the greenkeepers had found. Words fail me


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## pokerjoke (Apr 21, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Well up until today it had been an inconvenience.

Unfortunately I've just had the call I didn't want. My uncle (father figure in formative years) has hours left.
Having been admitted 8 days ago his kidneys has subsequently given up the ghost as well as other functions.

My cousins a mess and I've now got an evening of phones calls ahead as she's in not fit state to pass the news.

Dreading calling mum tbh. Seriously considering taking a permit to travel Form from the office and driving to soton tbh.
		
Click to expand...

Thoughts are with you Dave


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another day and another rise in numbers coming in. We are getting some going out (mainly to wards so getting better which is good news, but not all) but overall we are rising. I don't know if this is the case in other areas other than here as numbers in adjacent trusts seem to be steadying and if not, why the Reading area should see a continued spike.
		
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The new cases graph is trending at around 5,000 new cases a day.

Why Reading? Reading is on a main arterial route. Diseases travel where people travel, and towns and cities on main routes tend to show greater numbers.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			My club did a facebook post showing divots which the greenkeepers had found. Words fail me 

Click to expand...

I've no idea if anyone has been caught recently on ours but to be honest not sure how easy it would be to police. Green staff are on reduced hours and their rota is such there are only two on any day and working different times to reduce any risk especially in their compound. As far as I know the gates are locked although you can by pass them by cutting across the practice ground easily with a carry bag (not so easy with a trolley) but the first has the steward and GM's accommodation nearby (so a risk of being spotted) and the 10th is by the clubhouse so again a chance to be seen as there are still staff working in the office. 

I would hope any club catching members out playing would revoke membership immediately. I can see no justification for such behaviour when 99.9% of the membership are adhering to the rules.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am glad, i am not the only one..
		
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Generally a word only used in the Morningside area of Edinburgh by people who also have counterpanes and antimacassars


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The new cases graph is trending at around 5,000 new cases a day.

Why Reading? Reading is on a main arterial route. Diseases travel where people travel, and towns and cities on main routes tend to show greater numbers.
		
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I get that and know Reading is a main travel hub for people in the Thames Valley to get to and from London. However aren't train number supposedly right down and only "essential" journeys and key workers using the network. I assume the 5,000 per day is nationally. I haven't seen the graph but is the South East ( and Berkshire if it goes into detail) still on the rise???


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## Imurg (Apr 21, 2020)

The graphs show fewer hospitalizations for the last few days...but that's nationally 
There will be local peaks and troughs
Overall trends are declining.


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			email from the club today after several people had been spotted at the weekend playing the course
		
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I'm seeing an increasing amount of people whilst walking my dog.  I get the vibe that the government are starting to lose the public.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			I'm seeing an increasing amount of people whilst walking my dog.  I get the vibe that the government are starting to lose the public.
		
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Same here. Everyone's obeying the social distancing rules, but there are definitely more people out and about.


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## patricks148 (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			I'm seeing an increasing amount of people whilst walking my dog.  I get the vibe that the government are starting to lose the public.
		
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up here we have much smaller population and have had not many cases or deaths, so quite a few are not getting it. i'm out walking the dog every day and the things i see are just mind boggling, a few are just carrying on as normal, i see people visiting relativs, chatting to mates and playing darts in the garage, elderly Neibours popping in and out of each other houses, after being visited by grandchildren, going shopping every day as normal, even people still having parties and BBQ


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## patricks148 (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Same here. Everyone's obeying the social distancing rules, but there are definitely more people out and about.
		
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wish more were here


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## GB72 (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			I'm seeing an increasing amount of people whilst walking my dog.  I get the vibe that the government are starting to lose the public.
		
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More cars on the road as well. Not pre virus levels by any means but more. I do think that this is the last lock down period that the public will stand for easilty


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## patricks148 (Apr 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			More cars on the road as well. Not pre virus levels by any means but more. I do think that this is the last lock down period that the public will stand for easilty
		
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wife went to M&S in town yesterday, i went to pick her up with the shopping, when we went a week ago, there was not a soul around and i was the only car a saw down the two side streets in the centre of town. it was full yesterday and couldn't find anywhere to park


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			More cars on the road as well. Not pre virus levels by any means but more. I do think that this is the last lock down period that the public will stand for easilty
		
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Same this morning on my normal commute to work I been driving throughout covid (key worker) car levels are on the rise . 

No where near as bad as normal .. but defo some build up at lights where as I was only car before


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			wish more were here 

Click to expand...

I should qualify my statement by saying that I’ve either walked or run across the local golf course every day since the lockdown and I haven’t seen any evidence of people using the course at all 👍


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2020)

Even here I'm starting to see people 'creep' out when they shouldn't be 

Obviously there's a type of person out there who are quite happy to bring death to others (and each of us probably knows a friend or family member in that group)


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## Imurg (Apr 21, 2020)

Denmark beginning to ease lockdown but saying no gatherings of more than 500 people until at least September....


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## patricks148 (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I should qualify my statement by saying that I’ve either walked or run across the local golf course every day since the lockdown and I haven’t seen any evidence of people using the course at all 👍
		
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i'm begining to wonder if people up here either have zero common sense, or just don't get it??


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## Wolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Went out for a run yesterday across the fens, didn't see a soul for a good 6k or so then turned onto County lanes back toward the village and there were so many more people about than there has been in weeks. Definitely more cars going through the village and people stopping to talk to each other and not distancing. Ended up turning back on myself and going back cross country to avoid everyone.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Locally, the 'creep out' might have increased by a very small amount but nationally, with over 700,000 fines issued and a number of harsh jail terms issued I'd say things are breaking down.

We're also seeing reports of the Presidents for the semi-autonomous regions are opposing a continuation of the strict lockdown, wanting a relation of some of the rules.

WHO's recommendations are to continue as is.


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## huds1475 (Apr 21, 2020)

Glad I'm not the only one noticing the growth of people out and about.

Thought I was getting paranoid.

I guess its easy to think "whats all the fuss about" when the impact isn't overly visible.

Add to that newspaper articles unhelpfully pushing the idea if releasing restrictions.

Feels like there's a need for another big comms push, maybe gentle scare tactics to emphasise the consequences and outline the realities that its not an overnight thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			Even here I'm starting to see people 'creep' out when they shouldn't be

*Obviously there's a type of person out there who are quite happy to bring death to others *(and each of us probably knows a friend or family member in that group)
		
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That’s a shocking statement - really shocking , I don’t know one single person who is “happy to bring death to others” - I’ll put it down to cabin fever 

As for more people seemingly out and about - I suspect it’s more down to the directive about being able to drive to areas of exercise , more people going to work potentially. 

I also maybe think that the government knew that little change would bring a few more out and potentially could be the smallest start to easing of restrictions in a very subtle way.


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## IainP (Apr 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			Even here I'm starting to see people 'creep' out when they shouldn't be

Obviously there's a type of person out there who are quite happy to bring death to others (and each of us probably knows a friend or family member in that group)
		
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Just looking at the published stats (acknowledging they don't tell the full story), it does look like Mauritius has things under control and I wondered if they might start to ease restrictions.  What's the local view?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2020)

Walked to the top of my hill yesterday, about two miles steady incline.
Fabulous clear day could see Ben Lomond/Arochar Alps to the North and the top of The Merrick and the Awful Hand Munro range to the south......roughly 140 miles apart.
Ailsa Craig and Goat Fell on Arran to the west and Loudon Hill to the east.
So the nerd in me worked out that I could see roughly over 5000 sq miles of Scotland.
Passed two neighbours on the way and loads of newly born lambs.


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## huds1475 (Apr 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Walked to the top of my hill yesterday, about two miles steady incline.
Fabulous clear day could see Ben Lomond/Arochar Alps to the North and the top of The Merrick and the Awful Hand Munro range to the south......roughly 140 miles apart.
Ailsa Craig and Goat Fell on Arran to the west and Loudon Hill to the east.
So the nerd in me worked out that I could see roughly over 5000 sq miles of Scotland.
Passed two neighbours on the way and loads of newly born lambs.

Click to expand...

Lucky bugger. Sounds stunning


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## IanM (Apr 21, 2020)

Can't manage 5000 sq miles, but walking the dog around the village this morning was much better than my usual Tuesday AM M4/A34/M3/A33 commute.  When you drive into Wales over either Severn Bridge, we are the highest point you can see in the distance between the two bridges.  Can see the Bridges, away to the Cotswolds, down the Severn Estuary to N Devon on a clear day like today.

Amid all the bad stuff, staying at home and still being able to work, I am counting my blessings....and we're waiting on news of my mate's son who is in the Royal Gwent with it at the mo.  Fingers crossed


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## Beezerk (Apr 21, 2020)

Went into my local woods yesterday evening for my regular ride, if you recall these are the woods which have had the car park closed since the lockdown began.
On my way back I saw 8 vans parked up on the verges, a couple had moved cones so they could park up. There must have been easily more than a dozen people there all with mtb's. It was quite obviously a cycling club meet going off, breathtaking really 🤦


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## GB72 (Apr 21, 2020)

To a certain extent, I can understand if there is a slow creep out of lockdown going on. Where I am, in rural Lincolnshire, I am one of the lucky ones. Nobody in the village has it, nobody I know has it and there are only 500 odd cases in the whole of the county (on a population of nearly 700000). I hit  a real low at the weekend with simple boredom and it would have been so easy just to go out, I didn't, I went on my normal walk around the village and talked to a couple of people from the other side of the road and that helped. What I am saying is I have it easy, I am working, I have a garden, I live in as near to a safe area as you can get and I have nice walks around me and even with that, I nearly broke at the weekend. With that in mind, I can see how this must be affecting people without even half of the benefits that I have. 

One change I would like to see made is, with social distancing or whatever is necessary, to allow access to DIY supplies and garden supplies. So much I could do to keep myself occupied if I could getjust basic supplies like fence paint.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			up here we have much smaller population and have had not many cases or deaths, so quite a few are not getting it. i'm out walking the dog every day and the things i see are just mind boggling, a few are just carrying on as normal, i see people visiting relativs, chatting to mates and playing darts in the garage, elderly Neibours popping in and out of each other houses, after being visited by grandchildren, going shopping every day as normal, even people still having parties and BBQ
		
Click to expand...

Bit like some of the US states then - nothing much to see here (it's 'invisible' after all according to Trump) so it's all OK - but in truth, perhaps, it's only time...

That said - one of my cousins in the Black Isle is not so casual - as she is going through (heavy) chemo at the moment, she knows that she and her 70+yr old hubby are very vulnerable.  Their measures to stop the virus getting into the house or to her are at the absolute limit of eliminating risk as far as possible.  It's a tedious and long-winded regime - but she knows that given her serious health issues there is a fairly high probability that she will die if she catches it.

But it's the same for us all I guess - the measures that we take are consistent with the level of personal risk we perceive us individually and in the household to be facing.  And if we get very worried for whatever reason then I have my cousin's checklist to adhere to...


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2020)

IainP said:



			Just looking at the published stats (acknowledging they don't tell the full story), it does look like Mauritius has things under control and I wondered if they might start to ease restrictions.  What's the local view?
		
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Yeah it has been strict & I hope the results are showing a true reflection of that. We went into confinement the day after the first death and escalated that to 'curfew' level of lock down 48 hours later, and its been that way since then. On day 33 now with another 13 planned. This includes road blocks and designated shopping days, temp testing before entering a supermarket, full travel bans and no exercise periods
when someone tested + early on there was even lists released for those they wanted to find for contact testing  
All businesses not allowed to decide if they wanted to stay open, we were all simply told to shut (there was even an 8 day period early on where all food shops were shut too) all borders closed for the duration 

Active cases dropped into double figures last night & I really hope that trend continues (then there's the bigger problem of keeping it clear when the lockdown eases and airport re-opens) 

fingers crossed really


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## Golfmmad (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I should qualify my statement by saying that I’ve either walked or run across the local golf course every day since the lockdown and I haven’t seen any evidence of people using the course at all 👍
		
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Bet you took your 7iron! 😎 😉


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			Bet you took your 7iron! 😎 😉
		
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I thought about it mate. Definitely. Especially as it’s a brand new 7 iron and I’d love to see it fly 😂


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s a shocking statement - really shocking , I don’t know one single person who is “happy to bring death to others” - I’ll put it down to cabin fever

As for more people seemingly out and about - I suspect it’s more down to the directive about being able to drive to areas of exercise , more people going to work potentially.

I also maybe think that the government knew that little change would bring a few more out and potentially could be the smallest start to easing of restrictions in a very subtle way.
		
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No surprise you'd be shocked. Does death by cabin fever have a better outcome then? I get annoyed seeing any people who think its ok for them to decide when they can break the rules or breach the curfew we have here

You're ex-forces you should understand more than most and the implications of not following orders. Here, going out is simply not a choice these idiots can make 

For those of us non-essential workers (not some expended key workers list, just the essential workers with travel permits) There is no exercise here, there is no walk your dog, there is no leave the house because _'its quiet and no one else is about so what's the harm' _ there is no pop to the shops even if its for bread

There is only;* stay in the house, do not leave unless it is for medical reasons or it is your allocated shopping day, period!*


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2020)

All along the govt have included Behavioural Scientists in there models, even as to when they started lockdown. They knew all along that creep would happen at some point. It is why lockdown can not continue forever, why a little carrot is needed after this next 3 week stint.

I should add, before anyone jumps on this post, we are keeping to the advice and will continue to do so all of the way. There are 60m+ people in the country though and clearly too many will not follow the advice as laid down. This has to be factored in unfortunately.


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			All along the govt have included Behavioural Scientists in there models, even as to when they started lockdown. They knew all along that creep would happen at some point. It is why lockdown can not continue forever, why a little carrot is needed after this next 3 week stint.

I should add, before anyone jumps on this post, we are keeping to the advice and will continue to do so all of the way. There are 60m+ people in the country though and clearly too many will not follow the advice as laid down. This has to be factored in unfortunately.
		
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I agree with this.  I am positive that the government will chuck us a bone in the next week or two to keep us motivated.  I worry what will happen if they simply extend it again


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## Golfmmad (Apr 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			To a certain extent, I can understand if there is a slow creep out of lockdown going on. Where I am, in rural Lincolnshire, I am one of the lucky ones. Nobody in the village has it, nobody I know has it and there are only 500 odd cases in the whole of the county (on a population of nearly 700000). I hit  a real low at the weekend with simple boredom and it would have been so easy just to go out, I didn't, I went on my normal walk around the village and talked to a couple of people from the other side of the road and that helped. What I am saying is I have it easy, I am working, I have a garden, I live in as near to a safe area as you can get and I have nice walks around me and even with that, I nearly broke at the weekend. With that in mind, I can see how this must be affecting people without even half of the benefits that I have. 

One change I would like to see made is, with social distancing or whatever is necessary, to allow access to DIY supplies and garden supplies. So much I could do to keep myself occupied if I could getjust basic supplies like fence paint.
		
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Do you not have click and collect at your local B&q.
They have it very well organised and safe with goods social distancing. I should add that you can't go in the store, just wait and they come out to you with your order, at all times keeping social distance.


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## GB72 (Apr 21, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			Do you not have click and collect at your local B&q.
They have it very well organised and safe with goods social distancing. I should add that you can't go in the store, just wait and they come out to you with your order, at all times keeping social distance.
		
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We do but taking up to an hour just to get on the website and we do not have a massive store and so a lot of stuff out of stock.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 21, 2020)

To be honest and it’s only an opinion nobody is actually saying stay in.
They are advising.
Different areas should in my opinion have different advisories.
Why should someone in a village be the same as City folk.
It’s very easy to social distance yourself from others when you have miles of space.
I take my boy out regularly for his runs and it’s easy to stay away from others,we make sure we don’t touch anything.
One thing we have noticed is how many others have now come out compared to the start of all this it’s quite astonishing.
Are people now thinking if they are doing it why can’t we.
Or because they will go mad stuck inside all day.
I’ve been shopping 3 times since shutdown in Tesco and although it’s well organised the staff are the closest to each other.
I saw 2 police ladies virtually hand in hand.
Me and my boy can keep well away and will continue to until told otherwise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			No surprise you'd be shocked. Does death by cabin fever have a better outcome then? I get annoyed seeing any people who think its ok for them to decide when they can break the rules or breach the curfew we have here

You're ex-forces you should understand more than most and the implications of not following orders. Here, going out is simply not a choice these idiots can make

For those of us non-essential workers (not some expended key workers list, just the essential workers with travel permits) There is no exercise here, there is no walk your dog, there is no leave the house because _'its quiet and no one else is about so what's the harm' _ there is no pop to the shops even if its for bread

There is only;* stay in the house, do not leave unless it is for medical reasons or it is your allocated shopping day, period!*

Click to expand...

You have missed the point 

My shock was at the use of the statement “happy to bring death “ - just think about that , it’s basically saying happy to kill someone 

Yes some people will ignore the guidelines etc and go out - but that doesn’t mean they are “happy to bring death “ - it could be for many reasons from frustration , mental issues , boredom , being a rebel etc 

And the guidelines that are in place in the UK are vastly different from a small island 

We have guidelines that allow people to go out for various reasons so people going out are not “happy to bring death” 

Now if you had said that we all know someone stupid enough to ignore rules , guidelines , restrictions etc at the risk of catching the virus then I would agree - my issue was with your choice of imo a very poor phrase.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			We do but taking up to an hour just to get on the website and we do not have a massive store and so a lot of stuff out of stock.
		
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OK, but what I have done is get on the page, see how long the wait is, if over an hour, go for a daily walk and by the time I get back just wait for a few minutes. 
I know it's frustrating but you can always leave the queue and go back later or next day. 
I've been trying to get, sharp sand, building sand and about 30 bricks for a small project but no joy so far.
I also noticed that they are trialling some selected stores to open to the public. Might be worth looking out for that.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have missed the point

My shock was at the use of the statement “happy to bring death “ - just think about that , it’s basically saying happy to kill someone

Yes some people will ignore the guidelines etc and go out - but that doesn’t mean they are “happy to bring death “ - it could be for many reasons from frustration , mental issues , boredom , being a rebel etc

And the guidelines that are in place in the UK are vastly different from a small island

We have guidelines that allow people to go out for various reasons so people going out are not “happy to bring death”

Now if you had said that we all know someone stupid enough to ignore rules , guidelines , restrictions etc at the risk of catching the virus then I would agree - my issue was with your choice of imo a very poor phrase.
		
Click to expand...

Do you honestly think Slab meant people were happy to kill other people? Its semantics, that's all and we all know what he meant. No need to make a song and dance about it. Or even write the post for him, which is how your post ends.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			I agree with this.  I am positive that the government will chuck us a bone in the next week or two to keep us motivated.  I worry what will happen if they simply extend it again
		
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Really? I am more concerned what will happen if they dont.  Look at the number of deaths so far, we have to keep our nerve at this time.


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Really? I am more concerned what will happen if they dont.  Look at the number of deaths so far, we have to keep our nerve at this time.
		
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I agree.  I just think as a whole society will struggle with an additional extension.  it doesn't help that we've all been stuck indoors since October.  I don't think I would have noticed a lockdown if this happened in December


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## SatchFan (Apr 21, 2020)




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## Slab (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have missed the point

My shock was at the use of the statement “happy to bring death “ - just think about that , it’s basically saying happy to kill someone

Yes some people will ignore the guidelines etc and go out - but that doesn’t mean they are “happy to bring death “ - it could be for many reasons from frustration , mental issues , boredom , being a rebel etc

And the guidelines that are in place in the UK are vastly different from a small island

We have guidelines that allow people to go out for various reasons so people going out are not “happy to bring death”

Now if you had said that we all know someone stupid enough to ignore rules , guidelines , restrictions etc at the risk of catching the virus then I would agree - my issue was with your choice of imo a very poor phrase.
		
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Take it literally if you like, you have previous for this behaviour when it suits you 

Even in the UK 1 in 10 are reported as breaking the rules. It is naive to think none of those rule breakers will infect someone else and to then believe that none of those infections/reinfections could/will  result in a death

No one forced them to rule break, ie they were happy (content, comfortable, relaxed, at peace, calm) enough to do so and equally 'happy' to pass on that sentence


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## MegaSteve (Apr 21, 2020)

As I noted last week, with it being essentially a school holiday, there's way less folk about than I thought there might be... Between the two car parks that service the local 'beauty spot' no more than a dozen and a half vehicles to be seen yesterday... About a quarter of the number I'd expect to see in 'normal' times... Even at the weekend when it would be rammed, in good weather, it's essentially empty...


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			Take it literally if you like, you have previous for this behaviour when it suits you 

Even in the UK 1 in 10 are reported as breaking the rules. It is naive to think none of those rule breakers will infect someone else and to then believe that none of those infections/reinfections could/will  result in a death

No one forced them to rule break, ie they were happy (content, comfortable, relaxed, at peace, calm) enough to do so and equally 'happy' to pass on that sentence
		
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I think you have misunderstood phils post.  he was simply saying that "happy to kill someone" is a little stong.    I have just been to the shop for a loaf of bread.  I could have waited until Friday and got it on my big shop but I wanted some bread.  when I stepped outside I wasn't looking to kill someone and if it did cause this outcome I certainly wouldn't be happy about it


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## DRW (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Really? I am more concerned what will happen if they dont.  Look at the number of deaths so far, we have to keep our nerve at this time.
		
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I am certainly not commenting over the deaths, as it is terrible like really bad. But would be however interested if you have thought about supply chains breaking down with prolonged lockdowns and the knock on effects of no food or essentials etc.

Reports are already coming in on supply chains failing and social unrest in the world and we are a world economy, and these are likely to get worse if this goes on for another 3 months say(poorer countries will see big problems very quickly) and if supply chains fail to any extent, then you will have a far far worse situation then the virus to contend with. The ramifications are truly mind blowing 

I'm not a tin hat kind of person, but with the start of these reports coming in, even I am starting to think oh poo, I need a new hat and a gun to hand........

Governments around the world are really between a hard place and a rock over the lockdowns. With poorer countries much nearer the edge, than people in the UK generally.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			As I noted last week, with it being essentially a school holiday, there's way less folk about than I thought there might be... Between the two car parks that service the local 'beauty spot' no more than a dozen and a half vehicles to be seen yesterday... About a quarter of the number I'd expect to see in 'normal' times... Even at the weekend when it would be rammed, in good weather, it's essentially empty...
		
Click to expand...

Where I live the Malvern Hills and some large areas of common land are very popular with visitors. The Body responsible for maintaining these areas have closed off all their car parks.  From my house I have a view of the hills ridgeway and at the start of the lockdown it had a regular stream of walkers. It's now almost deserted.


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			I think you have misunderstood phils post.  he was simply saying that "happy to kill someone" is a little stong.    I have just been to the shop for a loaf of bread.  I could have waited until Friday and got it on my big shop but I wanted some bread.  when I stepped outside I wasn't looking to kill someone and if it did cause this outcome I certainly wouldn't be happy about it
		
Click to expand...

I think if he chooses to believe (even as I suspect its only a faux belief) that I truly meant they were 'happy' (i.e took pleasure from) then yes it would be more than a 'little strong'

Phil does what Phil does, I certainly wont change him nor will i try


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## rosecott (Apr 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			To a certain extent, I can understand if there is a slow creep out of lockdown going on. Where I am, in rural Lincolnshire, I am one of the lucky ones. Nobody in the village has it, nobody I know has it and there are only 500 odd cases in the whole of the county (on a population of nearly 700000). I hit  a real low at the weekend with simple boredom and it would have been so easy just to go out, I didn't, I went on my normal walk around the village and talked to a couple of people from the other side of the road and that helped. What I am saying is I have it easy, I am working, I have a garden, I live in as near to a safe area as you can get and I have nice walks around me and even with that, I nearly broke at the weekend. With that in mind, I can see how this must be affecting people without even half of the benefits that I have.

One change I would like to see made is, with social distancing or whatever is necessary, to allow access to DIY supplies and garden supplies. So much I could do to keep myself occupied if I could getjust basic supplies like fence paint.
		
Click to expand...

There will obviously not be the range of the B&Qs but I understand the Wilkinsons stores are fully open but what they stock may not be what you want.


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## GB72 (Apr 21, 2020)

rosecott said:



			There will obviously not be the range of the B&Qs but I understand the Wilkinsons stores are fully open but what they stock may not be what you want.
		
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Wiped clean of fence paint. Have a Wilkos next to my office and have queued up there a few times when I needed other things. Thanks for the suggestion though.


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## Lazkir (Apr 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			One change I would like to see made is, with social distancing or whatever is necessary, to allow access to DIY supplies and garden supplies. So much I could do to keep myself occupied if I could getjust basic supplies like fence paint.
		
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My wife works at Johnstones, unfortunately she can get all the paint she wants... and has done,  has a whole list of stuff for me to paint!


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s a shocking statement - really shocking , I don’t know one single person who is “happy to bring death to others” - I’ll put it down to cabin fever

As for more people seemingly out and about - I suspect it’s more down to the directive about being able to drive to areas of exercise , more people going to work potentially.

I also maybe think that the government knew that little change would bring a few more out and potentially could be the smallest start to easing of restrictions in a very subtle way.
		
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Not shocking at all.  It's you that doesn't acknowledge that there are some people who don't give a toss about anyone else, or social responsibility .
There are some people who are out and out selfish.
Your post suggests you are likely to put their actions down to things like,
"Not being educated enough about the consequences", etc
In other words, it's not their fault they are like that, it's someone else's, society, or government, or some body etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not shocking at all.  It's you that doesn't acknowledge that there are some people who don't give a toss about anyone else, or social responsibility .
There are some people who are out and out selfish.
Your post suggests you are likely to put their actions down to things like,
"Not being educated enough about the consequences", etc
In other words, it's not their fault they are like that, it's someone else's, society, or government, or some body etc.
		
Click to expand...

I’m happy to suggest that you are massively wide of the mark there and there is nothing in anything I have posted that suggests I don’t acknowledge their are idiots out there - do you understand that there is middle ground ? 

An area where people can understand why some are acting like idiots and why some think they can ignore any guidelines or advice . 🙄


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not shocking at all.  It's you that doesn't acknowledge that there are some people who don't give a toss about anyone else, or social responsibility .
There are some people who are out and out selfish.
Your post suggests you are likely to put their actions down to things like,
"Not being educated enough about the consequences", etc
In other words, it's not their fault they are like that, it's someone else's, society, or government, or some body etc.
		
Click to expand...

I think people need to consider their actions could indeed mean life and death. My nephew works in London as a 5g rigger. His girlfriend works as a nurse in palliative care. He said they'd need to not see each other until this was all over and it was safe. She bitched and he caved. I went nuts at him as he was saying how great Captain Tom was and I suggested one careless move by him and her could see the demise of someone just like Captain Tom. He was like "I'm allright - ok so I smoke but should be ok if I got it" my reply "NO, NO, NO, NO...it's not about YOU"...the penny seemed to drop but who knows.


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## Lazkir (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I think people need to consider their actions could indeed mean life and death. My nephew works in London as a 5g rigger. His girlfriend works as a nurse in palliative care. He said they'd need to not see each other until this was all over and it was safe. She bitched and he caved. I went nuts at him as he was saying how great Captain Tom was and I suggested one careless move by him and her could see the demise of someone just like Captain Tom. He was like "I'm allright - ok so I smoke but should be ok if I got it" my reply "NO, NO, NO, NO...it's not about YOU"...the penny seemed to drop but who knows.
		
Click to expand...


My reply to him would have been 'sort your daft girlfriend out, as a nurse she should know better than to bitch about not seeing you'


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## Wolf (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I think people need to consider their actions could indeed mean life and death. My nephew works in London as a 5g rigger. His girlfriend works as a nurse in palliative care. He said they'd need to not see each other until this was all over and it was safe. She bitched and he caved. I went nuts at him as he was saying how great Captain Tom was and I suggested one careless move by him and her could see the demise of someone just like Captain Tom. He was like "I'm allright - ok so I smoke but should be ok if I got it" my reply "NO, NO, NO, NO...it's not about YOU"...the penny seemed to drop but who knows.
		
Click to expand...

Should have had and old fashioned word with a clip round the girlfriends ear as well as she should know a lot better. 

My oldest daughter works in Wilkos and as college is shut she been doing extra shifts covering high risk colleagues who rightly aren't coming into work. As a result of her doing that she hasn't seen her boyfriend since lockdown began because she knows working with the public puts her at risk and doesn't want to unintentionally pass that onto her boyfriend or anyone in his family. 

Yes it's a bit crap for her and for him, but they know at their young age this isn't just about them.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			My reply to him would have been 'sort your daft girlfriend out, as a nurse she should know better than to bitch about not seeing you'
		
Click to expand...

It was that and more. I was so disappointed as he'd been very firm and unselfish, only to change his mind. She should know better and unimpressed doesn't come close.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I think people need to consider their actions could indeed mean life and death. *My nephew works in London as a 5g rigger.* His girlfriend works as a nurse in palliative care. He said they'd need to not see each other until this was all over and it was safe. She bitched and he caved. I went nuts at him as he was saying how great Captain Tom was and I suggested one careless move by him and her could see the demise of someone just like Captain Tom. He was like "I'm allright - ok so I smoke but should be ok if I got it" my reply "NO, NO, NO, NO...it's not about YOU"...the penny seemed to drop but who knows.
		
Click to expand...

Also as Amanda Holden and Eamonn Holmes have told me, he is facilitating the spread of coronavirus by putting up 5g masts, so his girlfriend must know he is more than likely a super carrier. Very silly behaviour.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m happy to suggest that you are massively wide of the mark there and there is nothing in anything I have posted that suggests I don’t acknowledge their are idiots out there - do you understand that there is middle ground ?

An area where people can understand why some are acting like idiots and why some think they can ignore any guidelines or advice . 🙄
		
Click to expand...

Suggest what you like,
I'm not sure , in this crisis, that there should be " a middle ground"
Either ones actions are going to possibly cause a problem or they are not.
In this case the problem could be someone dying who shouldn't have to die if some discipline and forethought and *care for others* had been in the mind.
So, make all the excuses you want to, but please stop this righteous indignation at someone who says it like it is. 
Slab said nothing wrong.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Suggest what you like,
I'm not sure , in this crisis, that there should be " a middle ground"
Either ones actions are going to possibly cause a problem or they are not.
In this case the problem could be someone dying who shouldn't have to die if some discipline and forethought and *care for others* had been in the mind.
So, make all the excuses you want to, but please stop this righteous indignation at someone who says it like it is.
Slab said nothing wrong.
		
Click to expand...

What exactly do you think I’m making excuses for ?! 

Are you just blurting in looking to have a pop or something 

Is there are minority of people who are breaking guidelines and restrictions- yes 

Are they doing it with the thought they may catch the virus - yes 

Are they doing with the thought that they maybe passing the virus around - yes 

Are the happy knowing that they could be passing the virus around - No 

Do people think they have a reason to break guidelines- some will yes 

Are people going out on purpose to break guidelines- suspect some 

But I firmly believe that the majority of those going out are doing it because they feel they will be fine , they are still doing within social distancing 

I’m not in the belief that everyone breaking the guidelines is doing it with any intent to cause harm as was suggested by Slab with his comment. You can disagree- all fine with that but that doesn’t make you right. 

The country is full of different people in regards the way they act - people have reacted differently to the restrictions put in place - everyone I know is following them but then even myself I have popped to the shop to grab some rolls for our burgers , it could be classed as breaking restrictions but is it done with any intent to harm or “happy to bring death ( which was the statement ) “ - Nope not at all.


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			popped to the shop to grab some *rolls* for our burgers
		
Click to expand...

they are baps or buns!!!!!! 😋


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

DRW said:



			I am certainly not commenting over the deaths, as it is terrible like really bad. But would be however interested if you have thought about supply chains breaking down with prolonged lockdowns and the knock on effects of no food or essentials etc.

Reports are already coming in on supply chains failing and social unrest in the world and we are a world economy, and these are likely to get worse if this goes on for another 3 months say(poorer countries will see big problems very quickly) and if supply chains fail to any extent, then you will have a far far worse situation then the virus to contend with. The ramifications are truly mind blowing 

I'm not a tin hat kind of person, but with the start of these reports coming in, even I am starting to think oh poo, I need a new hat and a gun to hand........

Governments around the world are really between a hard place and a rock over the lockdowns. With poorer countries much nearer the edge, than people in the UK generally.
		
Click to expand...

What are these supply chains that are failing here?  I've seen no reports of that or civil unrest.  I've seen the rednecks in tne USA kicking off but that's just normal.   Food manufacturing has not been locked down or the supply chains..


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			they are baps or buns!!!!!! 😋
		
Click to expand...

 or Barms or Cobs


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			or Barms or Cobs
		
Click to expand...

mods, please expel this person


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			mods, please expel this person
		
Click to expand...

Cobs where I come from


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also as Amanda Holden and Eamonn Holmes have told me, he is facilitating the spread of coronavirus by putting up 5g masts, so his girlfriend must know he is more than likely a super carrier. Very silly behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

He did say they've had problems with some idiots protesting!


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			mods, please expel this person
		
Click to expand...

They are Barms. Like in “chip barm”, with mushy peas.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			He did say they've had problems with some idiots protesting!
		
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Some of the masts we are using have been vandalised , one set on fire but thankfully not too much damage but one mast was damaged that bad knocking a quite a lot of carriers offline for a couple of days. A lot of the masts always have “flat earthers” etc there hanging around - same with wind farms


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## Imurg (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			They are Barms. Like in “chip barm”, with mushy peas.
		
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Surely burgers can only go in buns....other foodstuffs may have their own particular breaded item of varying title but a burger can only go in a burger bun..


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Burger bun
Chip butty, or barm
Hot dog roll
Breakfast stottie


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Surely burgers can only go in buns....other foodstuffs may have their own particular breaded item of varying title but a burger can only go in a burger bun..
		
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Nope. It goes in a barm. And if you’re weird, a seeded one... 😉


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Nope. It goes in a barm. And if you’re weird, a seeded one... 😉
		
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Only tree huggers and lefties have seeded buns


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## Imurg (Apr 21, 2020)

Us posh types have Brioche ones..


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

what have I started!!!!


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Us posh types have Brioche ones..

Click to expand...

Does one have one's pinky sticking out when one eats, or do you have a man that holds it for you?


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## Imurg (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Does one have one's pinky sticking out when one eats, or do you have a man that holds it for you?
		
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Can't remember..they dont last long enough...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

It’s a roll or a bun - end of discussion 😁

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-52361519

In other news - have we really hit peak and on the way down ? New cases reduced and potentially deaths reducing as well ?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 21, 2020)

Right now, for me, burgers are being eaten sandwiched between leaves of little gem lettuce... Early signs indicate it's aiding my aim of reversing decline to T2D... Still not convinced though, it's anywhere near as tasty when served in a brioche bun... And, of course, no beer to assist digestion...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2020)

My MiL manages her day-to-day money by occasionally transferring money from her savings account into her current account.  She only ever does that in a branch of the bank.  And she also usually withdraws money in a branch,  Her current account is running low, and she wants to get some money to us by writing a cheque.

She can't go into town as she is 90.  And she doesn't have a ATM card for her savings account.  She doesn't use her mobile; she doesn't have a smartphone; she doesn't have broadband; she doesn't have a computer/ipad etc; she doesn't have email.  My BiL is with her but he is oddly clueless with this sort of stuff.  So we are having to work out how to get her to accept *us *getting on-line banking set up for her and doing a transfer

But she won't want my wife or my BiL to know how much she has in savings...she's from South Yorkshire  

Is there another way...?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some of the masts we are using have been vandalised , one set on fire but thankfully not too much damage but one mast was damaged that bad knocking a quite a lot of carriers offline for a couple of days. A lot of the masts always have “flat earthers” etc there hanging around - same with wind farms
		
Click to expand...

If you could see the size of my nephew I should think they thought better of trying to cause damage. I'd cross the road to avoid him if I didn't know him!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			They are Barms. Like in “chip barm”, with mushy peas.
		
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A term or language I'm not familiar with. Chip butty it must be.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Only tree huggers and lefties have seeded buns
		
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Actually made me LOL that one 😂


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My MiL manages her day-to-day money by occasionally transferring money from her savings account into her current account.  She only ever does that in a branch of the bank.  And she also usually withdraws money in a branch,  Her current account is running low, and she wants to get some money to us by writing a cheque.

She can't go into town as she is 90.  And she doesn't have a ATM card for her savings account.  She doesn't use her mobile; she doesn't have a smartphone; she doesn't have broadband; she doesn't have a computer/ipad etc; she doesn't have email.  My BiL is with her but he is oddly clueless with this sort of stuff.  So we are having to work out how to get her to accept *us *getting on-line banking set up for her and doing a transfer

But she won't want my wife or my BiL to know how much she has in savings...she's from South Yorkshire 

Is there another way...?
		
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You could transfer some money into her current account for now and sort it out later.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A term or language I'm not familiar with. Chip butty it must be.
		
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No mate, no. A chip butty is when the chips (mushy peas optional) are on buttered bread. A chip barm is more of a snack on its own. Only bettered by a pie barm, with brown sauce!

And don’t make me tell the story of the chip shape barm again 😂


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s a roll or a bun - end of discussion 😁

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-52361519

In other news - have we really hit peak and on the way down ? New cases reduced and potentially deaths reducing as well ?
		
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Thought deaths were up.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You could transfer some money into her current account for now and sort it out later.
		
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Seems like a sensible option. If you can spare the cash ofc just stick enough to cover her bills 

Maybe when she gets the chance just stick enough to cover 6 months into the current account if she has it so less trips needed aswell


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## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My MiL manages her day-to-day money by occasionally transferring money from her savings account into her current account.  She only ever does that in a branch of the bank.  And she also usually withdraws money in a branch,  Her current account is running low, and she wants to get some money to us by writing a cheque.

She can't go into town as she is 90.  And she doesn't have a ATM card for her savings account.  She doesn't use her mobile; she doesn't have a smartphone; she doesn't have broadband; she doesn't have a computer/ipad etc; she doesn't have email.  My BiL is with her but he is oddly clueless with this sort of stuff.  So we are having to work out how to get her to accept *us *getting on-line banking set up for her and doing a transfer

But she won't want my wife or my BiL to know how much she has in savings...she's from South Yorkshire  

Is there another way...?
		
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Tell her to keep the money - at least for a few months! I presume you don't depend on her money!

Then the only issue is how SHE can manage to get cash. I'd suggest you contact the bank and explain. They'll be able to see the transfers and where the withdrawls were made, then advise on how best to proceed. I suspect there will be a sizeable number of folk in a situation similar to her - here the occasional trip to a bank for 'old-style' transactions has been part of their 'social life' for years! I know my MiL was like that too!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			No mate, no. A chip butty is when the chips (mushy peas optional) are on buttered bread. A chip barm is more of a snack on its own. Only bettered by a pie barm, with brown sauce!

And don’t make me tell the story of the chip shape barm again 😂
		
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Sorry, completely lost me there especially when you introduced the butter thing and the pie.
 I knew this would get difficult with people North of The M42.


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## Stuart_C (Apr 21, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Us posh types have Brioche ones..

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fur coat and no knickers springs to mind 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Thought deaths were up.
		
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The numbers that were announced today included deaths that potentially happened days ago over the weekend or even last month as it says in the article 

Below is a graph of the deaths on the day they happened 




As you can see there appears to be a peak 10 days ago or so but reducing 

Same with the cases - reducing. Less people in ICU and beds now so there are shoots of light appearing


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## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			...
I knew this would get difficult with people North of The M42.
		
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Seems it's actually 'with folk North of the M27'!


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			they are baps or buns!!!!!! 😋
		
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You should know Hovis- tea cakes


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## hovis (Apr 21, 2020)

I think as a whole they are coming down. today's look high because Sundays and Mondays are always lower


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## Fish (Apr 21, 2020)

I’m out and about everywhere, and I can tell you, factually, that driving through Camden and up Seven Sisters, you wouldn’t have known there was a lock down, the streets, not roads, were rammed!  The parks were rammed, football games, sunbathing, large groups 8+ gathered together, adults & youths, so no differentials, but the larger groups of adults (early 20’s) and I mean large as in 20, were all Asian, who obviously think they’re immune. 

Same in the parks along Putney, absolutely rammed. 

Throughout my day traveling the M6, M5, M42, M40, M25 today and everything in between, there were more cars on the road today than I’ve seen for weeks, and that was supported by the radio’s traffic news being 200 times different than it has been, announcing accidents and CONGESTION! 

If the government base any decisions on what they see in London and it’s suburbs, then don’t get your hopes up, as it’s totally different to what I see everywhere else across the country.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The numbers that were announced today included deaths that potentially happened days ago over the weekend or even last month as it says in the article

Below is a graph of the deaths on the day they happened

View attachment 30110


As you can see there appears to be a peak 10 days ago or so but reducing

Same with the cases - reducing. Less people in ICU and beds now so there are shoots of light appearing
		
Click to expand...


I'd wait to see what the corrected data looks like. Something about that trend doesn't sit right.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My MiL manages her day-to-day money by occasionally transferring money from her savings account into her current account.  She only ever does that in a branch of the bank.  And she also usually withdraws money in a branch,  Her current account is running low, and she wants to get some money to us by writing a cheque.

She can't go into town as she is 90.  And she doesn't have a ATM card for her savings account.  She doesn't use her mobile; she doesn't have a smartphone; she doesn't have broadband; she doesn't have a computer/ipad etc; she doesn't have email.  My BiL is with her but he is oddly clueless with this sort of stuff.  So we are having to work out how to get her to accept *us *getting on-line banking set up for her and doing a transfer

But she won't want my wife or my BiL to know how much she has in savings...she's from South Yorkshire  

Is there another way...?

 Make it a joint account with your wife who will know how much she has when the inevitable happens. It will also be easier with dealing with her affairs later. Alternatively allow access to her Executor
		
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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The numbers that were announced today included deaths that potentially happened days ago over the weekend or even last month as it says in the article

Below is a graph of the deaths on the day they happened

View attachment 30110


As you can see there appears to be a peak 10 days ago or so but reducing

Same with the cases - reducing. Less people in ICU and beds now so there are shoots of light appearing
		
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Phil, see the attached link. Its been pretty close to the figures released by Spain each day.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Phil, see the attached link. Its been pretty close to the figures released by Spain each day.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Click to expand...

That’s the same figures as mentioned and explained in the other link

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-52361519

“
On Tuesday 823 new deaths were announced, but most of these happened in the previous days and weeks. Some even date back to March.

Prof Sir David Spiegelhalter, of the University of Cambridge, said the NHS England figures suggested we were past the peak and in a "steadily" albeit slowly improving position.”


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## Fish (Apr 21, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I'd wait to see what the corrected data looks like. Something about that trend doesn't sit right.
		
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As of 9am 21 April, 535,342 tests have concluded, with 18,206 tests on 20 April. 

397,670 people have been tested of which 129,044 tested positive. 

As of 5pm on 20 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 17,337 have sadly died.

That’s 823 deaths, that’s a much bigger number than has been reported over the last week, and this is a daily report from the Department of Health & Social Care, and is based on the last report 24hrs prior!


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## huds1475 (Apr 21, 2020)

hovis said:



			they are baps or buns!!!!!! 😋
		
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You're both wrong, they're barmcakes


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## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The numbers that were announced today included deaths that potentially happened days ago over the weekend or even last month as it says in the article

Below is a graph of the deaths on the day they happened

View attachment 30110


As you can see there appears to be a peak 10 days ago or so but reducing

*Same with the cases - reducing*. Less people in ICU and beds now so there are shoots of light appearing
		
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While great to see 'Deaths' reducing, New cases seem to be pretty consistent at around 5.5k/day, so still essential to maintain 'lockdown' imo. Yesterday's lower number 'doesn't count' imo as Monday always seems 'low'! ICU reduction could also be a case of nursing staff getting 'more familiar' with symptoms/reactions and not sending to ICU unless essential.

I don't believe we're in a position to lift lockdown restrictions for some time yet!


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## Fish (Apr 21, 2020)

Fish said:



			As of 9am 21 April, 535,342 tests have concluded, with 18,206 tests on 20 April. 

397,670 people have been tested of which 129,044 tested positive. 

As of 5pm on 20 April, of those hospitalised in the UK who tested positive for coronavirus, 17,337 have sadly died.

That’s 823 deaths, that’s a much bigger number than has been reported over the last week, and this is a daily report from the Department of Health & Social Care, and is based on the last report 24hrs prior!
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My MiL manages her day-to-day money by occasionally transferring money from her savings account into her current account.  She only ever does that in a branch of the bank.  And she also usually withdraws money in a branch,  Her current account is running low, and she wants to get some money to us by writing a cheque.

She can't go into town as she is 90.  And she doesn't have a ATM card for her savings account.  She doesn't use her mobile; she doesn't have a smartphone; she doesn't have broadband; she doesn't have a computer/ipad etc; she doesn't have email.  My BiL is with her but he is oddly clueless with this sort of stuff.  So we are having to work out how to get her to accept *us *getting on-line banking set up for her and doing a transfer

But she won't want my wife or my BiL to know how much she has in savings...she's from South Yorkshire 

Is there another way...?
		
Click to expand...

Been there, done that, got the medal.
Clutchin at straws, can she use a local use a post office.

BTW Awful performance by Handcock today. He looked like someone with a worry on his mind.
More ummms and errs than a 19 year old trainee manager.

BTW 2....Has anyone worked out that 1,000 tests a week will take 700 weeks to check out all of the UK.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

The news about the vaccine sounds very promising. I looked online about volunteering for the human trials and they're over subscribed


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## Fish (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The news about the vaccine sounds very promising. I looked online about volunteering for the human trials and they're over subscribed 

Click to expand...

That’s a shame, can you nominate people 😜


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I'd wait to see what the corrected data looks like. Something about that trend doesn't sit right.
		
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https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/

Bit more in-depth on here 

It’s trying to give a more accurate representation on when the deaths occured as opposed to reported.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			It was that and more. I was so disappointed as he'd been very firm and unselfish, only to change his mind. She should know better and unimpressed doesn't come close.
		
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It proves even NHS has its share of idiots.
Next door to me both daughters are nurses and visit her all the time , husbands and kids.
My daughter goes mad but I have told her to forget them.
She hasn’t seen her boyfriend for the lockdown.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 21, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			You're both wrong, they're barmcakes
		
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Uncut loaf ,cut in half ,remove soft inner and put chips and sauce into empty loaf halves.
Feeds two usually but depends if I am hungry.
This was my school dinner for years.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 21, 2020)

And this is what we are up against;




Yes, that car park is as empty as it looks, yes, everyone else was leaving plenty of space so the muppet decided to see how close they could park to mine. Fortunately I left before they came back otherwise I may have struggled to maintain social distancing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2020)

I think the figures in which ever way you look at them are sadly still too high for any chance of a lightening of the lockdown. If you add in Fish's observations on his travels then lockdown is ceasing to be an effective tool and people are simply "taking a chance" and mingling around. Certainly plenty more cars on the road when I came home today. I think we are approaching a crossroads. The government will either to up the anti somehow and enforce the lockdown more vigilantly with the option of adding additional restrictions or look to release the pressure and start to come out of lockdown step by step. Given the numbers I am seeing at a local level, and taking into account the length of average stay in ICU (plus follow up treatment on wards), the numbers still coming in and the number we are losing I simply don't see it flattening out.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 21, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Uncut loaf ,cut in half ,remove soft inner and put chips and sauce into empty loaf halves.
Feeds two usually but depends if I am hungry.
This was my school dinner for years.
		
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That’s taken me back nearly 40 years! Regularly used to share a loaf with a mate at lunchtime, throw the soft bread at each other, stuff each half with chips then drown in salt and vinegar!...... Iced finger for pud 😋😋😋


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think the figures in which ever way you look at them are sadly still too high for any chance of a lightening of the lockdown. If you add in Fish's observations on his travels then lockdown is ceasing to be an effective tool and people are simply "taking a chance" and mingling around. Certainly plenty more cars on the road when I came home today. I think we are approaching a crossroads. The government will either to up the anti somehow and enforce the lockdown more vigilantly with the option of adding additional restrictions or look to release the pressure and start to come out of lockdown step by step. Given the numbers I am seeing at a local level, and taking into account the length of average stay in ICU (plus follow up treatment on wards), the numbers still coming in and the number we are losing I simply don't see it flattening out.
		
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I think people in general are starting to be far less concerned about the social distancing etc. I recall a few weeks ago when you went in to a supermarket you can see visibly on people's faces the fear in them, that doesn't seem to be there so much now.

So it seems they are naturally slackening themselves so can't see how a tightening of the rules is going to work and it was always the case that you can only lockdown for so long before the public gravitate against it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I think people in general are starting to be far less concerned about the social distancing etc. I recall a few weeks ago when you went in to a supermarket you can see visibly on people's faces the fear in them, that doesn't seem to be there so much now.

So it seems they are naturally slackening themselves so can't see how a tightening of the rules is going to work and it was always the case that you can only lockdown for so long before the public gravitate against it.
		
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Isn't that what they said about locking down to early.. that people would get bored and start to ignore 

Almost like they were right


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

People will and are getting bored of it, as I say, you can almost see a natural slackening on it around, possibly cause people have switched off to the constant media dangers of it.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			And this is what we are up against;

View attachment 30115


Yes, that car park is as empty as it looks, yes, everyone else was leaving plenty of space so the muppet decided to see how close they could park to mine. Fortunately I left before they came back otherwise I may have struggled to maintain social distancing.
		
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That's a constant irritation of mine. I always park in the remotest part of the car park possible having had too many dints from idiots opening doors into my car. Without fail I return and some numpty has parked next to me - do they think the cars get lonely?? Actually I think they are so numptified they need another car in order to park theirs between the white lines.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			That's a constant irritation of mine. I always park in the remotest part of the car park possible having had too many dints from idiots opening doors into my car. Without fail I return and some numpty has parked next to me - do they think the cars get lonely?? Actually I think they are so numptified they need another car in order to park theirs between the white lines.
		
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You hit the nail on the head there .. some people struggle to park straight / in the lines so use other cars as a guide to help them


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I think people in general are starting to be far less concerned about the social distancing etc. I recall a few weeks ago when you went in to a supermarket you can see visibly on people's faces the fear in them, that doesn't seem to be there so much now.

So it seems they are naturally slackening themselves so can't see how a tightening of the rules is going to work and it was always the case that you can only lockdown for so long before the public gravitate against it.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I agree with the last sentence Spain and Italy seemed to impose far stricter restrictions with a large degree of success. Yes there were publicised incidents of flouting the rules and fines imposed but neither society seemed to rebel and ignore the rules. I think unless we see a downturn soon, and it's not happening as far as I can see, certainly locally, then we have no choice but to extend. If that means getting tougher to enforce then so be it


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			You hit the nail on the head there .. some people struggle to park straight / in the lines so use other cars as a guide to help them
		
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Even then they end up too close to my side...with mine being a 2 door they're big doors and it's not the easiest to extract myself from!! Oh the cursing...


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not sure I agree with the last sentence Spain and Italy seemed to impose far stricter restrictions with a large degree of success. Yes there were publicised incidents of flouting the rules and fines imposed but neither society seemed to rebel and ignore the rules. I think unless we see a downturn soon, and it's not happening as far as I can see, certainly locally, then we have no choice but to extend. If that means getting tougher to enforce then so be it
		
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I'd bet my house it doesn't get tightened. There are already reports on how it will be relaxed, dates even mentioned and as I say, people will only put up with it for so long.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'd bet my house it doesn't get tightened. There are already reports on how it will be relaxed, dates even mentioned and as I say, people will only put up with it for so long.
		
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Got any links on these reports


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## rosecott (Apr 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I do live in Morningside.... 

Click to expand...

Would not have thought anything different - nearest I got was 9 months in an attic flat in South Clerk Street.


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## rosecott (Apr 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Been there, done that, got the medal.
Clutchin at straws, can she use a local use a post office.

BTW Awful performance by Handcock today. He looked like someone with a worry on his mind.
More ummms and errs than a 19 year old trainee manager.

BTW 2....Has anyone worked out that 1,000 tests a week will take 700 weeks to check out all of the UK.
		
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Very enlightened comment. It's far from surprising that someone with the enormous weight on his shoulders finds it difficult to produce the polished performance you are looking for.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Well I have had some sort of epiphany. After spending the first few weeks yearning to get back to normal, obsessing over the graphs, wondering when it will end I have realised that it is what it is and this is "normal" for now and we might as well make the most of it.

Needs to be said that I recognise I'm lucky and privileged to be able to be sanguine about it because I am still working, remotely, I have a big flat that I share only with the love of my life and we're in a nice area with walks and open spaces nearby.

So I've tidied and organised the room I use as an office, made it a nice environment to be in each day. After years of talking about getting back into running but never having time I've finally started and making progress. We're cooking proper meals so eating better, keeping the house tidier, starting to sort out the garden and generally living slower and appreciating what we have more. Living in the present, I suppose, instead of yearning for things to go back to how they were.

Hoping I can keep this mindset going.
		
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That's fantastic to read.

It's really hard at times to think about not seeing people. However my wife and I both appreciate how lucky we are 

She is pregnant so isn't allowed to her school. 12 weeks minimum. By time she goes back (if the school opens then) it will be almost summer holidays then twins are due.

Then myself I'm still working to keep normality on the underground.

We are lucky that a. We are paid and b. We have each other / little lady. We are all just enjoying the time we have together when I'm not working and when I am working I'm enjoying a diff 4 walls and some conversation


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Well I have had some sort of epiphany. After spending the first few weeks yearning to get back to normal, obsessing over the graphs, wondering when it will end I have realised that it is what it is and this is "normal" for now and we might as well make the most of it.

Needs to be said that I recognise I'm lucky and privileged to be able to be sanguine about it because I am still working, remotely, I have a big flat that I share only with the love of my life, with a garden and we're in a nice area with walks and open spaces nearby.

So I've tidied and organised the room I use as an office, made it a nice environment to be in each day. After years of talking about getting back into running but never having time I've finally started and making progress. We're cooking proper meals so eating better, keeping the house tidier, starting to sort out the garden and generally living slower and appreciating what we have more. Living in the present, I suppose, instead of yearning for things to go back to how they were.

Hoping I can keep this mindset going.
		
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We're much the same and overall lockdown hasn't been too bad for us at all. No rushing around in the morning (usually to walk the dogs before golf!) and a lovely home and surroundings which we've always appreciated but even more so now. We get on really well and the dogs brighten our lives constantly so if Groundhog Day it is then so be it.

Like you, I recognise how fortunate I am though and how difficult it would be with young kids in a top floor flat with no outside space and dwindling funds.

I do need a plan and structure to my days though so did struggle when it rained and outdoors wasn't tempting so walking/exercise plans changed. In desperation I did some housework and that gave me a sense of purpose to the day.


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## BrianM (Apr 21, 2020)

Home tomorrow after 13 days in a hotel and 12 days after showing my first symptoms.
Will be glad to get home.
Its definitely been a hard mental struggle more than the physical symptoms themselves, even though they weren’t pleasant.
The work thing is a blow losing my job during all this, but I’ve got plenty of confidence in my own ability to move onto something better, touch wood 😀
Thanks for all the well wishes, much appreciated.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 21, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Home tomorrow after 13 days in a hotel and 12 days after showing my first symptoms.
Will be glad to get home.
Its definitely been a hard mental struggle more than the physical symptoms themselves, even though they weren’t pleasant.
The work thing is a blow losing my job during all this, but I’ve got plenty of confidence in my own ability to move onto something better, touch wood 😀
Thanks for all the well wishes, much appreciated.
		
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Nothing like your own place and bed to start feeling 100% again


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Got any links on these reports
		
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Nope.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Nope.
		
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So no reports yet


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Spain removes IVA (VAT) on masks, gloves and ALL medicines sold to the public.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain removes IVA (VAT) on masks, gloves and ALL medicines sold to the public.
		
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Are masks and gloves easily available to buy for the public? One of the comments in the UK is that if the public pile in to buy them then it makes it harder for those who really need them to get hold of them. It creates another supply issue.


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## Hobbit (Apr 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are masks and gloves easily available to buy for the public? One of the comments in the UK is that if the public pile in to buy them then it makes it harder for those who really need them to get hold of them. It creates another supply issue.
		
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No problem getting them in the Farmacia. Prices were a bit step but reading further into the announcement the govt have set a fixed price for the masks.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are masks and gloves easily available to buy for the public? One of the comments in the UK is that if the public pile in to buy them then it makes it harder for those who really need them to get hold of them. It creates another supply issue.
		
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HID tried to order a box of FFP3 masks back at start of March when it started to get serious in the UK. Got an email today saying it'll be delivered 6th May so nearly two months. I would say that's fine for public consumption and keep the bulk for the NHS


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## fundy (Apr 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Well I have had some sort of epiphany. After spending the first few weeks yearning to get back to normal, obsessing over the graphs, wondering when it will end I have realised that it is what it is and this is "normal" for now and we might as well make the most of it.

Needs to be said that I recognise I'm lucky and privileged to be able to be sanguine about it because I am still working, remotely, I have a big flat that I share only with the love of my life, with a garden and we're in a nice area with walks and open spaces nearby.

So I've tidied and organised the room I use as an office, made it a nice environment to be in each day. After years of talking about getting back into running but never having time I've finally started and making progress. We're cooking proper meals so eating better, keeping the house tidier, starting to sort out the garden and generally living slower and appreciating what we have more. Living in the present, I suppose, instead of yearning for things to go back to how they were.

Hoping I can keep this mindset going.
		
Click to expand...


weve been trying to work on a similar basis, mrs fundy is still working 3 days a week from home, we have a garden, walks on the doorstep. plans have been derailed but its out of our control for now, trying to do something constructive each day and making some sketchy plans for as we come out of the other side as to what our priorities will be. trying to do some learning (self development, poker, chess, planning law etc) definitely eating healthier and doing a few bits for me that normally get ignored. we'll be fine as long as our nearest and dearest (parents and siblings and their families) are in the short to medium term. also aware were suffering less than most currently and trying to offer help/support where we can


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 21, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			That’s taken me back nearly 40 years! Regularly used to share a loaf with a mate at lunchtime, throw the soft bread at each other, stuff each half with chips then drown in salt and vinegar!...... Iced finger for pud 😋😋😋
		
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Throw it at each other???
You heathen!
Sayers was next door to the chippy. Happy days,


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## drdel (Apr 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are masks and gloves easily available to buy for the public? One of the comments in the UK is that if the public pile in to buy them then it makes it harder for those who really need them to get hold of them. It creates another supply issue.
		
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In stock at our chemists.!!!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Been there, done that, got the medal.
Clutchin at straws, can she use a local use a post office.

*BTW Awful performance by Handcock today. He looked like someone with a worry on his mind.
More ummms and errs than a 19 year old trainee manager.*

BTW 2....Has anyone worked out that 1,000 tests a week will take 700 weeks to check out all of the UK.
		
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Did you expect him to stand onto the dais and dive off doing a half pike with a double somersault. You really are a nasty little troll.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Is telephone banking an option? We're pretty much online banking now but I'm sure they still allow transactions by phone.
		
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It is my wife does it all the time.
Has to be set up though passwords etc.


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So no reports yet
		
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You asked me if I had any links, I replied I didn't, doesn't mean I haven't see or read them, not saying they are accurate but I have seen them.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You asked me if I had any links, I replied I didn't, doesn't mean I haven't see or read them, not saying they are accurate but I have seen them.
		
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That's really not good enough. You cant make statements saying there are reports out there to back them up and then not show the links when asked.  You could lose your house like that.


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's really not good enough. You cant make statements saying there are reports out there to back them up and then not show the links when asked.  You could lose your house like that.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe he thinks that you have Google too? 😉


----------



## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's really not good enough. You cant make statements saying there are reports out there to back them up and then not show the links when asked.  You could lose your house like that.
		
Click to expand...

Think you'll find I actually did make a statement like that and not back it up. 

Anyway, are you saying you haven't heard any reports whatsoever of the lifting of restrictions, regardless of how much fact there is to said reports ? Cause I know I'm not alone in having heard/read reports of it


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe he thinks that you have Google too? 😉
		
Click to expand...

I dont have to support his comments, do I?    It's up to the him to prove the source for his theory when he  uses them as evidence and you know it. 🙄


----------



## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont have to support his comments, do I?    It's up to the him to prove the source for his theory when he  uses them as evidence and you know it. 🙄
		
Click to expand...

I did wonder for a second if I’d missed the smilie, so I double checked and oh, there it is! Right where I left it. Just at the end of the post you quoted 😇


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Think you'll find I actually did make a statement like that and not back it up.

Anyway, are you saying you haven't heard any reports whatsoever of the lifting of restrictions, regardless of how much fact there is to said reports ? Cause I know I'm not alone in having heard/read reports of it
		
Click to expand...

No I haven't, not from the people that will make that decision so if you cant prove your point either retract it or own up to it being either your own opinion or based on tittle tattle.  I am sick and tired of the made up stories circulating without proof.


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## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No I haven't, not from the people that will make that decision so if you cant prove your point either retract it or own up to it being either your own opinion or based on tittle tattle.  I am sick and tired of the made up stories circulating without proof.
		
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At no time did I say it was factual, so may I suggest you hop on off the tall horse of yours.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'd bet my house it doesn't get tightened. *There are already reports on how it will be relaxed, dates even mentioned* and as I say, people will only put up with it for so long.
		
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HappyHacker1 said:



*At no time did I say it was factual,* so may I suggest you hop on off the tall horse of yours. so may I suggest you hop on off the tall horse of yours.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you hop on to yours and make your mind up what you did say.


----------



## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I suggest you hop on to yours and make your mind up what you did say.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, that's right, reports, dates mentioned, don't actually recall saying they were factual. 

I've heard reports of there being ghosts and aliens, don't know if they are factual either, doesn't mean there aren't any reports of them does it


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Yep, that's right, reports, dates mentioned, don't actually recall saying they were factual.

I've heard reports of there being ghosts and aliens, don't know if they are factual either, doesn't mean there aren't any reports of them does it 

Click to expand...

But you did, read your post again..
I just give up on you 😒


----------



## User20204 (Apr 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But you did, read your post again..
I just give up on you 😒
		
Click to expand...

Nope, I said there were reports, never said it was fact, read it again.


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Nope, I said there were reports, never said it was fact, read it again.
		
Click to expand...

You said there were reports and dates, now you say you have no proof of them. Unbelievable. Do you often make statements that are not factual.


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You said there were reports and dates, now you say you have no proof of them. Unbelievable. Do you often make statements that are not factual.
		
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Are you suggesting that everything you see or hear is true then ? 

Mirror or Daily Mail reader ?

I bet you believe these reports that say, worst winter in a 100 years forecast or 5 months of non stop sunshine predicted.

The point is, there are reports all the time of lots of things, hot summers, bad Winters, aliens, ghosts, and guess what ? lifting of restrictions.


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

Not sure how true it is but I read the report on the proposed traffic light system as we move to red which allows some relief from the lockdown on 11th May, to further relaxing at amber on 25th May then more restrictions being lifted on 11th June as we hit green. Think I read it was being discussed by MPs as an option. Think it was on the metro website


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure how true it is but I read the report on the proposed traffic light system as we move to red which allows some relief from the lockdown on 11th May, to further relaxing at amber on 25th May then more restrictions being lifted on 11th June as we hit green. Think I read it was being discussed by MPs as an option. Think it was on the metro website
		
Click to expand...


Careful now, unless you can produce facts he's have you for it.


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

Oh look, a link, so must be fact. 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/21/coro...fic-light-system-countries-lockdown-12586056/


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/20/traf...rdressers-clothes-shops-opening-may-12581177/


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

You beat me to it.


----------



## fundy (Apr 22, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure how true it is but I read the report on the proposed traffic light system as we move to red which allows some relief from the lockdown on 11th May, to further relaxing at amber on 25th May then more restrictions being lifted on 11th June as we hit green. Think I read it was being discussed by MPs as an option. Think it was on the metro website
		
Click to expand...

seems logical, if a little on the fast side at least for some things (especially green)


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			seems logical, if a little on the fast side at least for some things (especially green)
		
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Yeah some of the green section seems a bit quick. There could be an argument for regional lifting of restrictions but then you would need the army on the roads stopping people in high infection areas heading to, for example, pubs in areas with restrictions lifted. Clear difference in risk between a small village pub and a massive central London weatherspoons but I guess you need one rule for everyone to stop further travelling to use amenities of n other areas


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

Interesting that someone has suddenly gone all quiet now that a link has been produced


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

Having watched the press conference tonight and being a bit of a cynic, I can see a very, very slight relaxation as early as the weekend. Not saying I would agree with it but a distinct change if tone today, I suspect in the main to target creeping complacency. The cynic in me, however can see a build up to the end of the week when Boris makes his first appearance since illness and he comes back with something positive, throws the public a small bone.


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

I agree there does seem to be some complacency as time has went on, certainly don't see the same fear in people's eyes like two or three weeks back. Not entirely sure we'll see any let up at all at the weekend given they've already stated we're in for another 3 weeks.

Wasn't the change in tone in regards the obvious flattening and possibly peak being hit.


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I agree there does seem to be some complacency as time has went on, certainly don't see the same fear in people's eyes like two or three weeks back. Not entirely sure we'll see any let up at all at the weekend given they've already stated we're in for another 3 weeks.

Wasn't the change in tone in regards the obvious flattening and possibly peak being hit.
		
Click to expand...

I agree but the cynic in me sees Boris wanting to return with something good to say or some positive action rather than face the continued barrage of PPE enquiries.


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## ExRabbit (Apr 22, 2020)

Thread title -
*Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?*

It seems to have made a lot of you want to stray away from the thread title and make a lot of petty arguments between yourselves.

That has affected me in this forum in the sense that it is becoming quite upsetting to see that.


----------



## bobmac (Apr 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I do need a plan and structure to my days though so did struggle when it rained and outdoors wasn't tempting so walking/exercise plans changed. In desperation I did some housework and that gave me a sense of purpose to the day.
		
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You'll be learning to cook next.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 22, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			Thread title -
Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?

*It seems to have made a lot of you want to stray away from the thread title and make a lot of petty arguments between yourselves.*

That has affected me in this forum in the sense that it is becoming quite upsetting to see that.
		
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You seem new around these parts.  Literally every thread in OOB will descend into petty humourless arguments at some stage where people make the same point over and over again just to try and get one over on their forum nemesis. It's the beauty of the forum.  Just accept it, don't fight it, go with it and marvel at the, at times, unbelievably petty behaviour that makes an argument between a bunch of 10 year old primary kids look like the model of maturity.

Golfers are no different to anyone else, we are just as insecure, petty, bored, close minded and myopic as everyone.  Embrace the chaos.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2020)

Can't see us getting to red let alone green. Another poor night locally in terms of admissions and deaths. A lot of the consultants questioning the government numbers as they are not reflecting what their colleagues are seeing in their own trusts, not just in our surrounding area but colleagues working in areas like London Birmingham and Manchester


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Oh look, a link, so must be fact. 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/21/coro...fic-light-system-countries-lockdown-12586056/

Click to expand...

Might not be fact but at least you eventually come up with something to back up your claim which was all that was asked for.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Can't see us getting to red let alone green. Another poor night locally in terms of admissions and deaths. A lot of the consultants questioning the government numbers as they are not reflecting what their colleagues are seeing in their own trusts, not just in our surrounding area but colleagues working in areas like London Birmingham and Manchester
		
Click to expand...

The graph yesterday did show the SE cases rising.  Stay safe


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 22, 2020)

It’s really sad that this is going to change the planned national VE Day 
celebrations for the 8th of May, even a bank holiday was moved so we could all celebrate together, now it looks like we can’t.

At this time I feel for those veterans even more so, as well as the rest of the armed forces who draw courage from this day.

Any news on what the country is going to do instead if we celebrate it under lockdown?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you expect him to stand onto the dais and dive off doing a half pike with a double somersault. You really are a nasty little troll.
		
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Woah just hold on a minute and just read the part of DfTs post that you highlighted.  DfT is not the only person who thought that about Hancock.  In my house we actually feel really sorry for the guy as he is under massive pressure and trying to hold to the government lines that he must.  And if you were to believe some reports others are starting to point the finger of blame at Hancock - to deflect any blame that might come out of an enquiry at him and him alone.

That he came across as uncertain and hesitant in the briefing is hardly surprising given where the country is with PPE, testing etc, but that does not take from the fact that he did not come across well.  And that is simply the truth of it.  His uncertainty suggests that Hancock is a compassionate guy - that he cares and is desperate for things to work out and because of that looks like he alone is carrying the health of the nation on his back.  And that would unnerve any caring person. We wish him well.


----------



## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			It’s really sad that this is going to change the planned national VE Day
celebrations for the 8th of May, even a bank holiday was moved so we could all celebrate together, now it looks like we can’t.

At this time I feel for those veterans even more so, as well as the rest of the armed forces who draw courage from this day.

Any news on what the country is going to do instead if we celebrate it under lockdown?
		
Click to expand...

Yet it is those veterans that will happily forgo celebrating the day publicly because they understand more than most what it means to sacrifice freedom for the better of the nation and they will make no complaints about the fact. Instead they'll offer their thoughts to lost friends from their homes keeping themselves and others safe from infection and at a time when they are allowed out then they will make their visits to places that matter to them. 

Any member of the forces past or present will do the same and not bemoan it or want anyone feeling sorry for them, but instead like it if others do what you have done and reflect on the meaning of the day. 

Be nice to see some old tributes on tv perhaps even reference it to Covid-19 and show what sacrifice was back then compared to what we're being asked to do now to give people true perspective that staying home really isn't as bad as it has been for past generations.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Interesting that someone has suddenly gone all quiet now that a link has been produced 

Click to expand...

I think it more likely that he was asleep given the time of posting 👍


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## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I think it more likely that he was asleep given the time of posting 👍
		
Click to expand...


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Woah just hold on a minute and just read the part of DfTs post that you highlighted.  DfT is not the only person who thought that about Hancock.  In my house we actually feel really sorry for the guy as he is under massive pressure and trying to hold to the government lines that he must.  And if you were to believe some reports others are starting to point the finger of blame at Hancock - to deflect any blame that might come out of an enquiry at him and him alone.

That he came across as uncertain and hesitant in the briefing is hardly surprising given where the country is with PPE, testing etc, but that does not take from the fact that he did not come across well.  And that is simply the truth of it.  His uncertainty suggests that Hancock is a compassionate guy - that he cares and is desperate for things to work out and because of that looks like he alone is carrying the health of the nation on his back.  And that would unnerve any caring person. We wish him well.
		
Click to expand...

I tend to apply something akin to the 80/20 rule when I listen to the briefings. Providing the vast majority is on point I'll take it, and I'm semi-intelligent enough to fill in most of the gaps or understand the nuances that those doing the briefings are trying to put across.

In terms of Hancock being hesitant or stumbling a bit, listen to what he says after he stumbles or hesitates. If I had a ££ for every manager I've advised to not speak till they've fully formed the answer to the question that's come up from the floor I'd be a wealthy man. That is Hancock's failing, not the answer itself. He jumps in a little too soon with his answer, then has to qualify it a little or change direction as he fully understands the question. Far from thinking he's not up to the task, I'm starting to gain a bit of respect for him. But I'll qualify that by saying he made a promise of 100,000 tests. He still has to meet that target.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 22, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			It’s really sad that this is going to change the planned national VE Day
celebrations for the 8th of May, even a bank holiday was moved so we could all celebrate together, now it looks like we can’t.

At this time I feel for those veterans even more so, as well as the rest of the armed forces who draw courage from this day.

Any news on what the country is going to do instead if we celebrate it under lockdown?
		
Click to expand...

Can't be many left now and the youngest will be in their 90's.
If alive my dad would have been 102 and they way he thought he would not be happy for anyone to put their lives at risk to 'celebrate' his effort.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I tend to apply something akin to the 80/20 rule when I listen to the briefings. Providing the vast majority is on point I'll take it, and I'm semi-intelligent enough to fill in most of the gaps or understand the nuances that those doing the briefings are trying to put across.

In terms of Hancock being hesitant or stumbling a bit, listen to what he says after he stumbles or hesitates. If I had a ££ for every manager I've advised to not speak till they've fully formed the answer to the question that's come up from the floor I'd be a wealthy man. That is Hancock's failing, not the answer itself. He jumps in a little too soon with his answer, then has to qualify it a little or change direction as he fully understands the question. Far from thinking he's not up to the task, I'm starting to gain a bit of respect for him. But I'll qualify that by saying he made a promise of 100,000 tests. He still has to meet that target.
		
Click to expand...

We agree.  Talking with certainly in briefings about short term targets on PPE and testing, when there is significant uncertainty around both is perhaps a mistake - but I genuinely believe he wants to reassure us - and when we try and reassure someone we sometimes over promise.  This is one reason my wife in her job never, ever says - 'you'll be fine'. 

We don't think he's not up to the task - though we know that he didn't want the job - we just think he is being asked to carry too much on our behalf and the cabinet.   He needs such as Hunt to help him out - because despite his past with the NHS and his past on B and the leadership - we know that he knows what he is talking about with the NHS.

Of all the ministers doing the briefings, Hancock and Sunak have gained our greatest respect.


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## bobmac (Apr 22, 2020)

Please feel free to use this thread any time

https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...l-views-supporting-or-otherwise.104902/page-9


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## AmandaJR (Apr 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You'll be learning to cook next.  

Click to expand...

Steady on...


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Might not be fact but at least you eventually come up with something to back up your claim which was all that was asked for.
		
Click to expand...

If you were that desperate for a link, you could've made the effort yourself.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Woah just hold on a minute and just read the part of DfTs post that you highlighted.  DfT is not the only person who thought that about Hancock.  In my house we actually feel really sorry for the guy as he is under massive pressure and trying to hold to the government lines that he must.  And if you were to believe some reports others are starting to point the finger of blame at Hancock - to deflect any blame that might come out of an enquiry at him and him alone.

That he came across as uncertain and hesitant in the briefing is hardly surprising given where the country is with PPE, testing etc, but that does not take from the fact that he did not come across well.  And that is simply the truth of it.  His uncertainty suggests that Hancock is a compassionate guy - that he cares and is desperate for things to work out and because of that looks like he alone is carrying the health of the nation on his back.  And that would unnerve any caring person. We wish him well.
		
Click to expand...

Why is it so damn important to you and Dft et al how *well* the briefing presenters come over?  You are not at the theatre.
 I didn't see all the briefing because I now watch it until those trite journalists start .
Recently the BBC chap Pym started his question saying Aren't you ashamed....
*Ashamed?  *What standard of journalism is that in this crisis situation.
This government is facing a nightmare and is trying its best. It's going to make mistakes, things are going to go wrong, but do you really think any of those men and ladies stood at that lectern should be *ashamed!*
Maybe the hesitancy Hancock displayed was after the journos started, as I 
say I don't watch now, but it was probably because he was trying to be polite when in reality he would have liked to have been a lot more strident , positive and definite. But then you would have accused him of being rude. 
Let's face it, when in reality you want to tell someone to stop asking stupid, stirring, mischievous questions, but you have to be polite, there is quite a bit of hesitancy involved, yes?
.


----------



## Orikoru (Apr 22, 2020)

I don't really want them to relax the lockdown. I don't like it as much as anyone, but then I'm also not keen to be going back to spending two and a half hours a day on the tube with a million other people just yet.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why is it so damn important to you and Dft et al how *well* the briefing presenters come over?  You are not at the theatre.
I didn't see all the briefing because I now watch it until those trite journalists start .
Recently the BBC chap Pym started his question saying Aren't you ashamed....
*Ashamed?  *What standard of journalism is that in this crisis situation.
This government is facing a nightmare and is trying its best. It's going to make mistakes, things are going to go wrong, but do you really think any of those men and ladies stood at that lectern should be *ashamed!*
Maybe the hesitancy Hancock displayed was after the journos started, as I
say I don't watch now, but it was probably because he was trying to be polite when in reality he would have liked to have been a lot more strident , positive and definite. But then you would have accused him of being rude.
Let's face it, when in reality you want to tell someone to stop asking stupid, stirring, mischievous questions, but you have to be polite, there is quite a bit of hesitancy involved, yes?
.
		
Click to expand...

As for the importance of coming across well then they absolutely need to as they need to portray trust and a notion that they have a grip on the situation. It's called leadership and this is a time for the government to lead. If people believe in what they say they will then follow the guidance a lot more.

If you watch this you may understand why Hugh Pym asks some difficult questions to your beloved government. Assuming that is still allowed.

And if you want to comment on what happened in part of a press conference then the minimum anyone can do is actually watch that part. Otherwise you are just making stuff up to support your preconceived view.


----------



## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			If you were that desperate for a link, you could've made the effort yourself.
		
Click to expand...

he was agreeing with you!!!


----------



## 2blue (Apr 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why is it so damn important to you and Dft et al how *well* the briefing presenters come over?  You are not at the theatre.
I didn't see all the briefing because I now watch it until those trite journalists start .
Recently the BBC chap Pym started his question saying Aren't you ashamed....
*Ashamed?  *What standard of journalism is that in this crisis situation.
This government is facing a nightmare and is trying its best. It's going to make mistakes, things are going to go wrong, but do you really think any of those men and ladies stood at that lectern should be *ashamed!*
Maybe the hesitancy Hancock displayed was after the journos started, as I
say I don't watch now, but it was probably because he was trying to be polite when in reality he would have liked to have been a lot more strident , positive and definite. But then you would have accused him of being rude.
Let's face it, when in reality you want to tell someone to stop asking stupid, stirring, mischievous questions, but you have to be polite, there is quite a bit of hesitancy involved, yes?
.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Hancock's got THIS - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/amp/ in the back of his mind, Eh??  What you think??


----------



## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

hovis said:



			he was agreeing with you!!!
		
Click to expand...

He wasn't when he dismissed me when I said I didn't have a link, and it wasn't that I didn't have a link I just didn't bother looking til someone else mentioned Metro


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why is it so damn important to you and Dft et al how *well* the briefing presenters come over?  You are not at the theatre.
I didn't see all the briefing because I now watch it until those trite journalists start .
Recently the BBC chap Pym started his question saying Aren't you ashamed....
*Ashamed?  *What standard of journalism is that in this crisis situation.
This government is facing a nightmare and is trying its best. It's going to make mistakes, things are going to go wrong, but do you really think any of those men and ladies stood at that lectern should be *ashamed!*
Maybe the hesitancy Hancock displayed was after the journos started, as I
say I don't watch now, but it was probably because he was trying to be polite when in reality he would have liked to have been a lot more strident , positive and definite. But then you would have accused him of being rude.
Let's face it, when in reality you want to tell someone to stop asking stupid, stirring, mischievous questions, but you have to be polite, there is quite a bit of hesitancy involved, yes?
.
		
Click to expand...

Did you actually read what I posted - or did you simply assume that as I was agreeing with DfT that I would be attacking and criticising Hancock as you seem to think that DfT is doing in his post.

It's bonkers, and frankly nonsense, that you can't state anything observationally negative about a briefing without being accused of being political.  It seems some would prefer the briefings to go down the Trump route - where unless a journalist is effusive in their praise of how great Trump is doing - he attacks them as Fake News, when usually all they are doing is asking questions about the management and delivery of PPE and Testing.  Just as they are doing here.  Maybe you want to watch a Trump briefing to spot the sheer crass absurdity of them. You want that?


----------



## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			He wasn't when he dismissed me when I said I didn't have a link, and it wasn't that I didn't have a link I just didn't bother looking til someone else mentioned Metro
		
Click to expand...

i don't recall old skier asking for a link?  maybe I'm wrong.  can't be bothered to look back


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Got any links on these reports
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Interesting that someone has suddenly gone all quiet now that a link has been produced 

Click to expand...

Right. First of all you posted that when I had gone to bed, I dont stay up into the small hours incase someone wants to post something.  You made a statement without verifying  it, I asked you if you would and you said you couldnt, you then started posting silly comments instead of finding something to support your claim.  OK you have eventually posted a link after someone else told you where it was.  That's all I asked you to do and now you are acting like a child in a playground.


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2020)

2blue said:



			Maybe Hancock's got THIS - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/amp/ in the back of his mind, Eh??  What you think?? 

Click to expand...

Its a tough one Dave, and embarrassing. Think of it from the supplier's perspective. You have 100 boxes of PPE on the shelf. Your Sales guy knows the users in the UK are desperate for it but can't find a buyer. A Frenchman rings up and says "allo, allo. Can I buy ze boxes of PPE you 'ave on ze shelves?" Would you say no?

I'd lay this one at NHS Procurement's door, for which Hancock is the boss. Someone's la bas needs kicking.


----------



## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

I've answered the link issue previously, like all things in life if you want things done properly, do them yourself. 

As for acting like a child, you may wish to re read some of your replies to me last last night, ranting and raving like a small child.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I've answered the link issue previously, like all things in life if you want things done properly, do them yourself. 

As for acting like a child, you may wish to re read some of your replies to me last last night, ranting and raving like a small child.
		
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I made no silly comments to you just asked you a number of times to show some evidence to back your statement, I didnt say you were wrong either.  You on the other hand kept posting silly comments.  Now you cant stop yourself.


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## Foxholer (Apr 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			...
Let's face it, when in reality you want to tell someone to stop asking stupid, stirring, mischievous questions, but you have to be polite, there is quite a bit of hesitancy involved, yes?
.
		
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Would you sooner have a Trump-style response? That would be personal abuse and propaganda instead of answering the question.

Journalists are quite entitled - perhaps even obliged - to 'grill' politicians and if the politicians don't respond 'well', I haven't much sympathy for them. I've a totally different attitude should a civil servant get caught by such 'tricks' though!

It does show how thin the veneer of 'authority' this, or any other, government really has - especially with such a fast moving, generally negative, story!


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## 2blue (Apr 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one Dave, and embarrassing. Think of it from the supplier's perspective. You have 100 boxes of PPE on the shelf. Your Sales guy knows the users in the UK are desperate for it but can't find a buyer. A Frenchman rings up and says "allo, allo. Can I buy ze boxes of PPE you 'ave on ze shelves?" Would you say no?

I'd lay this one at NHS Procurement's door, for which Hancock is the boss. Someone's la bas needs kicking.
		
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To be honest Bri.....  if there were squirm-room on this I tend to think the guys at the Telegraph would have used it.  .......  & where was that Spanish accent then?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one Dave, and embarrassing. Think of it from the supplier's perspective. You have 100 boxes of PPE on the shelf. Your Sales guy knows the users in the UK are desperate for it but can't find a buyer. A Frenchman rings up and says "*allo, allo. Can I buy ze boxes of PPE you 'ave on ze shelves?*" Would you say no?

I'd lay this one at NHS Procurement's door, for which Hancock is the boss. Someone's la bas needs kicking.
		
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Still laughing at this . Is the Frenchman asking this, leaning back in a chair with an expresso and a fag in his hand, barely a care in the world?

Incidentally, I hope the Frenchman is not in a hurry. It has just taken 3 weeks for a pallet to reach our customer just outside of Paris. It is normally 4 working days, this time 16 working days


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## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A Frenchman rings up and says "allo, allo. Can I buy ze boxes of PPE you 'ave on ze shelves?" Would you say no?
.
		
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that French man sounds German to me😏


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker & Socket

Take a break please guys


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

Think this whole thing has my mental health spiralling downwards quickly. I’m a pessimist at the best of times and I can’t shake thoughts now that this may be life for ever - I keep entertaining a real worst case scenario that we never find a vaccine and it mutates so quickly we don’t build any natural immunity. 

Ah, the prison that is our own four walls at times.


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Think this whole thing has my mental health spiralling downwards quickly. I’m a pessimist at the best of times and I can’t shake thoughts now that this may be life for ever - I keep entertaining a real worst case scenario that we never find a vaccine and it mutates so quickly we don’t build any natural immunity.

Ah, the prison that is our own four walls at times.
		
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You really do inspire happiness 😂😂😂


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			You really do inspire happiness 😂😂😂
		
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I live to give.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Think this whole thing has my mental health spiralling downwards quickly. I’m a pessimist at the best of times and I can’t shake thoughts now that this may be life for ever - I keep entertaining a real worst case scenario that we never find a vaccine and it mutates so quickly we don’t build any natural immunity.

Ah, the prison that is our own four walls at times.
		
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Ok so given that worst case...

Hmmm I'm trying to find the positive as I'm a naive optimist, think the best kind if person.

Ok...so a huge percentage of those that catch the virus don't get very ill at all. That's about the best I can come up with but is where my thoughts would go. Each covid season I might catch the virus and I might not. Like I might catch the flu or I might not. Likelihood is not and if I do then a week feeling rubbish and back to normal life.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 22, 2020)

Add to that a survival of the fittest and I guess in time it would weed the weak from the strong and death rates would drop...

Does that help


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Ok so given that worst case...

Hmmm I'm trying to find the positive as I'm a naive optimist, think the best kind if person.

Ok...so a huge percentage of those that catch the virus don't get very ill at all. That's about the best I can come up with but is where my thoughts would go. Each covid season I might catch the virus and I might not. Like I might catch the flu or I might not. Likelihood is not and if I do then a week feeling rubbish and back to normal life.
		
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But we know the virus can affect even the otherwise healthy - what if a mutation lends it a slightly different pathway for its interaction with our body? One strain that was asymptomatic could mutate into one that is deadly to the same person. 

I need a drink. 😅


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## drdel (Apr 22, 2020)

Treasury v Dept of Health - the classic dilemma between Money and Morals.

Morally we would always expect to protect life as best we can however with time medical care improves and that comes with a cost.

Unfortunately, once you accept that you can have morals but only if you afford them it becomes very difficult. Medical companies will make a profit from PPE, breathing equipment, vaccinations, etc. so is that right because they benefit through people’s suffering? People now live longer and it is likely that they need greater medical intervention with age -  more sophisticated medicines/care =  more profit to the medical industry!

Consequently because people now live longer while not being economically productive that might suggest it’s cheaper for a nation to let people die.

In the UK we take a high moral stance and as the Covid19 policy shows Government policy has been to accept the economic consequences. But for how long can we as citizens expect that to last? When are we going to say the cost is too high, will we adjust our morals and start rationing care?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			But we know the virus can affect even the otherwise healthy - what if a mutation lends it a slightly different pathway for its interaction with our body? One strain that was asymptomatic could mutate into one that is deadly to the same person.

I need a drink. 😅
		
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The over population issue would be solved and the planet (and polar bears in particular who I do worry about) would be fine?


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The over population issue would be solved and the planet (and polar bears in particular who I do worry about) would be fine?
		
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Every cloud...!


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The over population issue would be solved and the planet (and polar bears in particular who I do worry about) would be fine?
		
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Could it be nature trying to restore the balance is classed as an optimistic outlook as it has lowered emissions and cleared our waters of pollution. 

Like you I always look for a positive 😂


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			Treasury v Dept of Health - the classic dilemma between Money and Morals.

Morally we would always expect to protect life as best we can however with time medical care improves and that comes with a cost.

Unfortunately, once you accept that you can have morals but only if you afford them it becomes very difficult. Medical companies will make a profit from PPE, breathing equipment, vaccinations, etc. so is that right because they benefit through people’s suffering? People now live longer and it is likely that they need greater medical intervention with age -  more sophisticated medicines/care =  more profit to the medical industry!

Consequently because people now live longer while not being economically productive that might suggest it’s cheaper for a nation to let people die.

In the UK we take a high moral stance and as the Covid19 policy shows Government policy has been to accept the economic consequences. But for how long can we as citizens expect that to last? When are we going to say the cost is too high, will we adjust our morals and start rationing care?
		
Click to expand...

What do you think?


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			Treasury v Dept of Health - the classic dilemma between Money and Morals.

Morally we would always expect to protect life as best we can however with time medical care improves and that comes with a cost.

Unfortunately, once you accept that you can have morals but only if you afford them it becomes very difficult. Medical companies will make a profit from PPE, breathing equipment, vaccinations, etc. so is that right because they benefit through people’s suffering? People now live longer and it is likely that they need greater medical intervention with age -  more sophisticated medicines/care =  more profit to the medical industry!

Consequently because people now live longer while not being economically productive that might suggest it’s cheaper for a nation to let people die.

In the UK we take a high moral stance and as the Covid19 policy shows Government policy has been to accept the economic consequences. But for how long can we as citizens expect that to last? When are we going to say the cost is too high, will we adjust our morals and start rationing care?
		
Click to expand...

To answer the last question, we already are by accounts from doctors - there aren’t enough tests and there aren’t enough ICU beds in some areas.


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Think this whole thing has my mental health spiralling downwards quickly. I’m a pessimist at the best of times and I can’t shake thoughts now that this may be life for ever - I keep entertaining a real worst case scenario that we never find a vaccine and it mutates so quickly we don’t build any natural immunity.

Ah, the prison that is our own four walls at times.
		
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I suppose if there was not cure of vaccine, research focus would move on to PPE for the general public. We may go out wearing masks etc but we would go out.


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I suppose if there was not cure of vaccine, research focus would move on to PPE for the general public. We may go out wearing masks etc but we would go out.
		
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Hazmed suits for everyone!


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

TRBL info sent to Regt Secs

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This is an extract from Bob Gambles letter to Regimental Secretaries.  The advent of the Covid-19 crisis has forced the cancellation of a number of events with VE75 perhaps being the most notable....At 11:00 on Friday 8 May we very much hope that you will join others by marking this important moment in whichever way you deem appropriate. In this significant anniversary year, and at this very unsettled time, it would be a poignant symbol of hope and solidarity to all members of our community, to see us visibly acknowledging the contribution of a generation to whom we owe so much and will act as a timely reminder to those of our comrades who may need our collective support that they are not alone.

You may wish to mark the occasion by standing proudly in your garden, at your front door or at a window during the Two Minute Silence. We also hope that this simple act will show the members of that generation and those with more contemporary roles that live within all of our communities that we honour and respect them even during this time of national crisis. The BBC are covering this day with various televised events. Stay Safe...

With best wishes


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 22, 2020)

We've almost got to a point here where we are looking for a reason?
Nature resolving a situation?
Trying to be light hearted a bit, I have a seed of a theory that this wonderful weather we have had since all this started, leads me to think we are some sort of computer game where someone is playing some wicked moves?
I.e., now they're on lockdown I'll change the weather from rain to brilliant spring sunshine😉


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## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Hazmed suits for everyone!
		
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ever wore one?  horrendous.     i wonder how long it will be before the UK aligns with other nations as far as face mask goes.  the sceptic in me says this will come when the NHS secures a stock pile first


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 22, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I suppose if there was not cure of vaccine, research focus would move on to PPE for the general public. We may go out wearing masks etc but we would go out.
		
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There’s enough bandits in my club ,we don’t want them wearing masks as well.
I am sure a vaccine will be found but it will take time.
But we don’t want to wait for anything these days ,everything must be instant.
Not saying I am happy being locked down, but the slower pace of life I like.


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

hovis said:



			ever wore one?  horrendous.     i wonder how long it will be before the UK aligns with other nations as far as face mask goes.  the sceptic in me says this will come when the NHS secures a stock pile first
		
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Not a hazmed suit but I used to have to wear full body coverage, face masks, goggles, shoe coverings etc when I worked in a lab. That was only for about an hour at a time and it was awful - I was a sweaty mess within seconds.


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			There’s enough bandits in my club ,we don’t want them wearing masks as well.
I am sure a vaccine will be found but it will take time.
But we don’t want to wait for anything these days ,everything must be instant.
Not saying I am happy being locked down, but the slower pace of life I like.
		
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How much would TaylorMade charge for the latest HazzzMedArmor 101 with 3% less shoulder movement restriction and built in tee holder?


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

hovis said:



			ever wore one?  horrendous.     i wonder how long it will be before the UK aligns with other nations as far as face mask goes.  the sceptic in me says this will come when the NHS secures a stock pile first
		
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CBRN suits are the worst thing to try an manoeuvre about in, let alone go to the toilet. That's before you consider the fact you sweat like a pig. No thanks I'd rather stay indoors.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			How much would TaylorMade charge for the latest HazzzMedArmor 101 with 3% less shoulder movement restriction and built in tee holder?
		
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If it stopped you over swinging at the top ,whatever they want.
We would all need buggies as well ,18 holes in a suit is not recommended.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

I have posted my views on population here many times.  I do have concerns about the words population and especially this country.   I would like to see a World  programme to do what ever we can humainly to reduce birthrates through education and contraception.  However I do have concerns about the current trend towards ageism and particularly when people start suggesting that wiping out the elderly is a desirable policy.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 22, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Not a hazmed suit but I used to have to wear full body coverage, face masks, goggles, shoe coverings etc when I worked in a lab. That was only for about an hour at a time and it was awful - I was a sweaty mess within seconds.
		
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We would all be a bit slimmer though.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have posted my views on population here many times.  I do have concerns about the words population and especially this country.   I would like to see a World  programme to do what ever we can humainly to reduce birthrates through education and contraception.  However I do have concerns about the current trend towards ageism and particularly when people start suggesting that wiping out the elderly is a desirable policy.
		
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Logan’s Run was a film about just that.
The sandman had a gun called The HOMER it hit every nerve in your body and you died in excruciating pain.
Not advocating that as in the book it was 21 yrs old ,but think the film was 30 yr old.
But your right the population is far to high.


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## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			CBRN suits are the worst thing to try an manoeuvre about in, let alone go to the toilet. That's before you consider the fact you sweat like a pig. No thanks I'd rather stay indoors.
		
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gas tights are even worse. especially if you had a curry the night before.  you cant smell anything as you're wearing breathing apaaratus but the look on your undressers face......... priceless 🤢


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Hearing again today - this time from Dominic Raab when asked about supplies of PPE - about the 1,000,000,000 items of PPE that have so far been delivered during this period of crisis.  Is it OK to ask how this is made up without being accused of being political?  All very well telling us a huge number if 95% of that number is single-use disposable gloves.


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

hovis said:



			gas tights are even worse. especially if you had a curry the night before.  you cant smell anything as you're wearing breathing apaaratus but the look on your undressers face......... priceless 🤢
		
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Oh I don't know, full CBRN gear, mask and carrying 80lbs of kit in desert heat 🤮


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## DRW (Apr 22, 2020)

I got an all body latex suit, will that be sufficient for protection

whoops wrong forum


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## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh I don't know, full CBRN gear, mask and carrying 80lbs of kit in desert heat 🤮
		
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do you still have to wear them stupid fold over rubber slippers/shoes.  hated them!!


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## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

DRW said:



			I got an all body latex suit, will that be sufficient for protection

whoops wrong forum
		
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😁.  with a snooker ball


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## Slab (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hearing again today - this time from Dominic Raab when asked about supplies of PPE - about the 1,000,000,000 items of PPE that have so far been delivered during this period of crisis.  Is it OK to ask how this is made up without being accused of being political?  All very well telling us a huge number if 95% of that number is single-use disposable gloves.
		
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Who on this forum do you reckon can give you an answer to that?


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## Cherry13 (Apr 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I have posted my views on population here many times.  I do have concerns about the words population and especially this country.   I would like to see a World  programme to do what ever we can humainly to reduce birthrates through education and contraception.  However I do have concerns about the current trend towards ageism and particularly when people start suggesting that wiping out the elderly is a desirable policy.
		
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The most succesful way to reduce a countries birthrate is to reduce its infant mortality rate.  As the infant mortality rate drops, so does the birthrate as expected life expectancy increases.


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## Kellfire (Apr 22, 2020)

Cherry13 said:



			The most succesful way to reduce a countries birthrate is to reduce its infant mortality rate.  As the infant mortality rate drops, so does the birthrate as expected life expectancy increases.
		
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And Bill Gates is being attacked by conspiracy theorists who have interpretted this as meaning that Gates wants to give vaccines to kill babies. Sigh


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hearing again today - this time from Dominic Raab when asked about supplies of PPE - about the 1,000,000,000 items of PPE that have so far been delivered during this period of crisis.  *Is it OK to ask how this is made up without being accused of being political?  A*ll very well telling us a huge number if 95% of that number is single-use disposable gloves.
		
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Well, it depends on whether you accept that he's telling that to illustrate just what they are up against, or whether he's trying to reject charges of inefficiency.
That figure is looked upon as either
a terrifically high amount of anything. Just where do you get it  that quickly?
Or
That's obviously not good enough if it disappears that quickly.

Whichever is accepted is a matter for each person. Only they know whether it is a politically motivated point of view.


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

hovis said:



			do you still have to wear them stupid fold over rubber slippers/shoes.  hated them!!
		
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A slightly more modern version of them but yep still stupid outer boots that flap about


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			If you were that desperate for a link, you could've made the effort yourself.
		
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First time I've even heard of the Metro' even took you a few hours to find something.


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			First time I've even heard of the Metro' even took you a few hours to find something.
		
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Used to be the free paper handed out in London, not sure if it still has a hard copy version but the online version, whilst, as with all papers, can be sensationalist at times, is updated regularly throughout the day.


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			First time I've even heard of the Metro' even took you a few hours to find something.
		
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GB72 said:



			Used to be the free paper handed out in London, not sure if it still has a hard copy version but the online version, whilst, as with all papers, can be sensationalist at times, is updated regularly throughout the day.
		
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Still is at most stations if not all I'd say. First published back in 1999, something like 1.4m circulation a day. More than the likes of the sun and daily mail. 

Though those figure's are a couple years old now so could even be more or less. Surprised someone never heard of it though.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			CBRN suits are the worst thing to try an manoeuvre about in, let alone go to the toilet. That's before you consider the fact you sweat like a pig. No thanks I'd rather stay indoors.
		
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I’m the first one in one of those at work , infact I’m like a begging dog whenever jobs come up that require one. I get to claim an extra £7.95 ph for modelling it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh I don't know, full CBRN gear, mask and carrying 80lbs of kit in desert heat 🤮
		
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Full pressurized Chally 2 , not sure of present cost


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Still is at most stations if not all I'd say. First published back in 1999, something like 1.4m circulation a day. More than the likes of the sun and daily mail.

Though those figure's are a couple years old now so could even be more or less. Surprised someone never heard of it though.
		
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Not in Devon but reading has been overtaken by surfing


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Full pressurized Chally 2 , not sure of present cost 

Click to expand...

Some of us had to walk or swim for a living unlike you lot lap of luxury sat on your arse😂

Mind you those RFA taxis were quite nice for sleeping.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Some of us had to walk or swim for a living unlike you lot lap of luxury sat on your arse😂

Mind you those RFA taxis were quite nice for sleeping.
		
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Always quick to sidle up to us in Norway knowing there was a hot brew going on my scimitar.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, it depends on whether you accept that he's telling that to illustrate just what they are up against, or whether he's trying to reject charges of inefficiency.
That figure is looked upon as either
a terrifically high amount of anything. Just where do you get it  that quickly?
Or
That's obviously not good enough if it disappears that

Whichever is accepted is a matter for each person. Only they know whether it is a politically motivated point of view.
		
Click to expand...

I simply ask how the billion items is made up.  It sounds a huge number - and it is - and the way it is presented is undeniably intended to sound impressive.  But I have absolutely no idea what it means in the context of the whole of the NHS and the care sector.  The 400,000 gowns element of the 84tons of PPE coming from Turkey sounds mighty impressive - but it is less so  when put into perspective - being less than 3 days of what is required.  It's great - it's invaluable - but it's only 3 days.  

We just need as much openness and clarity as possible from the government through this time to help us understand what they are managing to achieve in very difficult circumstances.


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## Wolf (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Always quick to sidle up to us in Norway knowing there was a hot brew going on my scimitar.
		
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Someone had to be tea girl 😂..


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## bobmac (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply ask how the billion items is made up.  It sounds a huge number - and it is - and the way it is presented is undeniably intended to sound impressive.  But I have absolutely no idea what it means in the context of the whole of the NHS and the care sector.  The 400,000 gowns element of the 84tons of PPE coming from Turkey sounds mighty impressive - but it is less so  when put into perspective - being less than 3 days of what is required.  It's great - it's invaluable - but it's only 3 days. 

We just need as much openness and clarity as possible from the government through this time to help us understand what they are managing to achieve in very difficult circumstances.
		
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There's a seperate thread specifically for PPE and politics, can I suggest you use it please?
Thank you
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...litical-views-supporting-or-otherwise.104902/


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

Our beach where I live getting busier this week. Walk past it everyday, yesterday 22 cars parked up and people out and about, today closer to 30.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



			There's a seperate thread specifically for PPE and politics, can I suggest you use it please?
Thank you
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...litical-views-supporting-or-otherwise.104902/

Click to expand...

OK - though asking for a breakdown of 1 billion items of PPE is not political.  As much as some would like to cast it to be it's not.  But OK.


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - though asking for a breakdown of 1 billion items of PPE is not political.  As much as some would like to cast it to be it's not.  But OK.
		
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If worrying about it "affects you," you're in the right thread.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - though asking for a breakdown of 1 billion items of PPE is not political.  As much as some would like to cast it to be it's not.  But OK.
		
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Nobody here can answer your question, ask your MP or if you are really interested put in a FOI request.


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## patricks148 (Apr 22, 2020)

Highland council have now put signs on all the bridges on the Ness saying wait until its clear of others before going on.... is anyone paying attention????

are they Boxlocks


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If worrying about it "affects you," you're in the right thread.
		
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It might affect us all...my Mrs may have to go into hospital in the next week or so for a scan...not Covid-19 related...


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 22, 2020)

*If the British media were reporting on our golf performances:-*

So why did you miss that eight foot par putt to the left?   Couldn't you have aimed further right?  Lined it up better?   Got a better putter before you started?
On the third hole, you put a ball in the trees?   Why didn't you anticipate that and hit a different club? 

_"But I made three pointers on the 4th and 6th holes"_

Yes but the Standard Scratch for the round is 38 points which is 19 per nine.  You are only on course for 17 points for the front nine so you are going to miss your target.  What are you going to do about it?  Will you resign from the club if you don't make that score?

_"By the end of the round I was in the buffer zone at 36 points"_

But players at eight other clubs in the area all scored more 36 with the same equipment as you.  Why didn't you order better clubs last year?  Why didn't you go for more lessons in anticipation of not scoring 38 today?

You said last year you were hoping to cut two shots off your handicap by now.  You have gone up by 0.5.  Surely this is a massive failure on your part.  Are you going to quit.
etc etc etc


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Nobody here can answer your question, ask your MP or if you are really interested put in a FOI request.
		
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Well to close this off here as requested - I suggest that perhaps we _should _have some idea of the breakdown of the 1billion pieces of PPE if the ministers keep telling us of that number - it clearly being important.  What does it mean?


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

Definitely a lot more people out and about than in the first couple of weeks also people seem slightly less afraid if that makes sense, I mean they don't seem to have the same fear in their eyes they had a few weeks back.


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## Beezerk (Apr 22, 2020)

First pay slip of the furlough period today, ouch is all I have to say 🤦
I'm lucky, I sold a property recently so have savings to fall back on should I need to, some others won't be as fortunate I guess and could be in a pickle.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It might affect us all...my Mrs may have to go into hospital in the next week or so for a scan...not Covid-19 related...
		
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My son works in a major hospital.
He said it’s like a ghost town with a lot of people not attending.
But A&E is deserted as people don’t just turn up because they can’t get a doctor’s appointment.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Definitely a lot more people out and about than in the first couple of weeks also people seem slightly less afraid if that makes sense, I mean they don't seem to have the same fear in their eyes they had a few weeks back.
		
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Probably thinking if it hasn’t got me yet it’s not going to or I am immune.
The guidance from government gives you choices they are just using the one that says you can go out.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My son works in a major hospital.
He said it’s like a ghost town with a lot of people not attending.
But A&E is deserted as people don’t just turn up because they can’t get a doctor’s appointment.
		
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There was a cancer specialist on TV this morning. The number of patients he is seeing at the moment is 20% of the usual volume. He was very worried, cancer hasn't gone into lockdown during this period. 

The A & E one is interesting. If only people would be responsible towards that dept all of the time.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well to close this off here as requested - I suggest that perhaps we _should _have some idea of the breakdown of the 1billion pieces of PPE if the ministers keep telling us of that number - it clearly being important.  What does it mean?
		
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Do we need to have that type of detail. You might as you have a particular mindset where you seem to need to be updated with everything going on but I suspect your main reason for this is to furnish you with ammunition to snipe at the Government. It's no different to the way you reacted to Brexit.


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Probably thinking if it hasn’t got me yet it’s not going to or I am immune.
.
		
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Possibly, I for one am far more relaxed about it, not saying I won't catch it but when only 4% of the population have, at things stand, your chances of catching seem quite remote given these figures.


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## Imurg (Apr 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was a cancer specialist on TV this morning. The number of patients he is seeing at the moment is 20% of the usual volume. He was very worried, cancer hasn't gone into lockdown during this period.

The A & E one is interesting. If only people would be responsible towards that dept all of the time.
		
Click to expand...

In the early days of the lockdown there were a number of cases at Stoke Mandeville of parents bringing kids into A&E too late for the doctors to do much
Parents were scared to go for fear of catching C19. A few kids died or had to have major surgery for relatively minor problems just left too long without medical attention.
The Mrs, on the Special Care Baby Unit, says their workload is lighter than normal because they've got more staff.
They had to split the staff into 2 groups working 2 on/2 off, 3 shifts per group.
There have to be senior pediatricians stationed exclusively in the unit as they can't be flitting from SCBU to Pediatrics or anywhere else.
They're feeling a bit guilty as they're having it fairly easy while the C19 areas have nosed to the grind


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was a cancer specialist on TV this morning. The number of patients he is seeing at the moment is 20% of the usual volume. He was very worried, cancer hasn't gone into lockdown during this period.

The A & E one is interesting. If only people would be responsible towards that dept all of the time.
		
Click to expand...

Just for a bit of clarity, its not the patients not turning up. Their appointments are being cancelled by the hospital because their immune system has been compromised by chemo.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 22, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Used to be the free paper handed out in London, not sure if it still has a hard copy version but the online version, whilst, as with all papers, can be sensationalist at times, is updated regularly throughout the day.
		
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They still have it. What is important to know about the metro is that it's run by the daily mail. So it's not to be trusted


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just for a bit of clarity, its not the patients not turning up. Their appointments are being cancelled by the hospital because their immune system has been compromised by chemo.
		
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Sorry, well clarified. The doctor was not attacking the patients. He was hoping for a lifting of some restrictions so that treatment, appointments etc could start to return to normal. He was worried that cancers would be spreading unchecked during this time, heart diseases his other big concern. He wasn't demanding the lifting, just pointing out the consequences of the current situation. 

I can't remember the blokes name but he spoke very well.


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## fundy (Apr 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Our beach where I live getting busier this week. Walk past it everyday, yesterday 22 cars parked up and people out and about, today closer to 30.
		
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same here on the Dorset coast


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2020)




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## harpo_72 (Apr 22, 2020)

Knocked out some face shield things. They have been directly delivering them to the hospitals that had requested them.
They have all been gratefully received and some doctors and surgeons have sent personal emails of thanks .. which is lovely but unnecessary, I think we all wish we could help.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Possibly, I for one am far more relaxed about it, not saying I won't catch it but when only 4% of the population have, at things stand, your chances of catching seem quite remote given these figures.
		
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Look up the word "exponential ".  If you know what it means, your comment is 
.........strange...shall I say.?


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## hovis (Apr 22, 2020)

walking down the canal today and there was a boat owner moaning at 4 guys kayaking down the canal together drinking beers.   they told him to F off and carried on.  he recons he knows where they keep their boats and tonight he's going to drill holes in them 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do we need to have that type of detail. You might as you have a particular mindset where you seem to need to be updated with everything going on but I suspect your main reason for this is to furnish you with ammunition to snipe at the Government. It's no different to the way you reacted to Brexit.
		
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If the number matters to the extent that it is repeated by ministers almost whenever asked about PPE - then I might ask why not - because they must know to have come up with the figure?  Without knowing how the number is made up it is rather meaningless...and if I was inclined I could flip this on it's head and suggest that you don't think it necessary as it might expose the 1bn figure as a little bit of smoke and mirrors.  But I won't - as that would be getting political and so not for here.


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## Slime (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Definitely a lot more people out and about than in the first couple of weeks also people seem slightly less afraid if that makes sense, I mean they don't seem to have the same fear in their eyes they had a few weeks back.
		
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I don't think I've seen anyone with fear in their eyes.
Maybe I don't know what it looks like, or maybe I'm just not looking for it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the number matters to the extent that it is repeated by ministers almost whenever asked about PPE - then I might ask why not - because they must know to have come up with the figure?  Without knowing how the number is made up it is rather meaningless...and if I was inclined I could flip this on it's head and suggest that you don't think it necessary as it might expose the 1bn figure as a little bit of smoke and mirrors.  But I won't - as that would be getting political and so not for here.
		
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What difference does it make to you or me, we cant change anything. It's up to the politicians to deal with these issues and for most reasonably minded people we consider they are making the best of a bad situation, why should they need to inform the public about the minute details of what PPE has been issued, It's a massively complex logistical program so please can you stop going on about it.


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the number matters to the extent that it is repeated by ministers almost whenever asked about PPE - then I might ask why not - because they must know to have come up with the figure?  Without knowing how the number is made up it is rather meaningless...and if I was inclined I could flip this on it's head and suggest that you don't think it necessary as it might expose the 1bn figure as a little bit of smoke and mirrors.  But I won't - as that would be getting political and so not for here.
		
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Gut feel; it was too significant a number and too rounded for it to be true. However, I'm not interested in it. All I want is for this crisis to be managed professionally. There'll be time afterwards to chase up past history of what went right, what went wrong and what was proven to be a lie.


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## User20204 (Apr 22, 2020)

Slime said:



			I don't think I've seen anyone with fear in their eyes.
Maybe I don't know what it looks like, or maybe I'm just not looking for it.
		
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Two or three weeks ago in supermarkets it was obvious people were walking around with a concerned look about them, those mannerisms seem to be relaxed recently.


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Two or three weeks ago in supermarkets it was obvious people were walking around with a concerned look about them, those mannerisms seem to be relaxed recently.
		
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Agree but far more masks now and people acting like a mask makes them virus proof. Sort of wanted to point out that them wearing a mask gives more protection to me than it does to them


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the number matters to the extent that it is repeated by ministers almost whenever asked about PPE - then I might ask why not - because they must know to have come up with the figure?  Without knowing how the number is made up it is rather meaningless...and if I was inclined I could flip this on it's head and suggest that you don't think it necessary as it might expose the 1bn figure as a little bit of smoke and mirrors.  But I won't - as that would be getting political and so not for here.
		
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So despite saying you're not comment further you do. As others have said there is nothing we can do to justify the figures and indeed the information you are being given. You can either choose to accept them to some degree or not. Either way how about rather than speculating on whether the government is telling the whole truth and using the thread to spin your own political views a la the brexit thread let them get on with it and judge them when we get out of lockdown and how we cope with the recovery as a truer litmus test of their ability to govern and get the economy and business back on track.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 22, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So despite saying you're not comment further you do. As others have said there is nothing we can do to justify the figures and indeed the information you are being given. You can either choose to accept them to some degree or not. Either way how about rather than speculating on whether the government is telling the whole truth and using the thread to spin your own political views a la the brexit thread let them get on with it and judge them when we get out of lockdown and how we cope with the recovery as a truer litmus test of their ability to govern and get the economy and business back on track.
		
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May be and I am not saying this is the case but often happens is no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.. little not so good details get lost because the person your telling doesn’t listen or accept them .. often with lines of you can sort that out or just rearrange this, without understanding that you have progressed all of those and it is what it is .. so maybe the line or chain is too long and has someone who just wants to look good. But is in the end making the person look silly.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2020)

On a positive note, a reasonable number of patients left ICU today to rehabilitate on a ward. However we have seen a trend of overnight admissions so not getting too excited yet. I even heard discussions going on about plateau planning


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So despite saying you're not comment further you do. As others have said there is nothing we can do to justify the figures and indeed the information you are being given. You can either choose to accept them to some degree or not. Either way how about rather than speculating on whether the government is telling the whole truth and using the thread to spin your own political views a la the brexit thread let them get on with it and judge them when we get out of lockdown and how we cope with the recovery as a truer litmus test of their ability to govern and get the economy and business back on track.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not asking the figure to be justified, and I am not suggesting it’s not true. I’d simply like to have some idea - say - of how many gowns are in that number - because then I‘ll have a better idea of where 400,000 gowns from Turkey fits in the scheme of things. Like many people in this country we have close friends and relatives slap bang on the front line and I worry about them not having such as the gowns and masks that they need. On the 1bn the government has nothing to worry about - just be open and clear about what the number means if they are going to continue to use it.  Or stop using it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m not asking the figure to be justified, and I am not suggesting it’s not true. I’d simply like to have some idea - say - of how many gowns are in that number - because then I‘ll have a better idea of where 400,000 gowns from Turkey fits in the scheme of things. Like many people in this country we have close friends and relatives slap bang on the front line and I worry about them not having such as the gowns and masks that they need. On the 1bn the government has nothing to worry about - just be open and clear about what the number means if they are going to continue to use it.  Or stop using it.
		
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If they broke each consignment into individual items and posted it on the . GOV site how on earth could that be of any use to you. Its like asking the MOD to post the same for munitions so people with family in the Services could see if there was enough to go around.  It's pointless.


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If they broke each consignment into individual items and posted it on the . GOV site how on earth could that be of any use to you. Its like asking the MOD to post the same for munitions so people with family in the Services could see if there was enough to go around.  It's pointless.
		
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As the rate of attrition changes, depending on how many patients/staff are in hospital at any one time, its absolutely pointless going forward what was bought 2 weeks ago let alone a month ago.


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## Fish (Apr 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm reasonably certain that @SocketRocket is a member of the cabinet. 

Click to expand...

what, Spurs empty one 😜


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m not asking the figure to be justified, and I am not suggesting it’s not true. I’d simply like to have some idea - say - of how many gowns are in that number - because then I‘ll have a better idea of where 400,000 gowns from Turkey fits in the scheme of things. Like many people in this country we have close friends and relatives slap bang on the front line and I worry about them not having such as the gowns and masks that they need. On the 1bn the government has nothing to worry about - just be open and clear about what the number means if they are going to continue to use it.  Or stop using it.
		
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It simply makes no difference or no sense to break the numbers down. Far better to ensure those on the frontline are getting WHAT THEY NEED rather than worry if we've over ordered on gloves. Why keep repeating the same nonsense? I'm on the frontline and I know the issues our technicians and management are having and what we are short of but as long as we've enough PPE to allow our staff to work safely I don't care what percentage of the gowns come from Turkey


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			what, Spurs empty one 😜
		
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Sauvignon Cabernet


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm reasonably certain that @SocketRocket is a member of the cabinet. 

Click to expand...

I'm pretty certain you're a member of Fred Carno's Army 😉.  Will I get a like from LP 🤣


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## Hobbit (Apr 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had to google that! I feel like I've been insulted from a bygone age. 

Click to expand...

Aw c'mon Karen, we know you're not 21 anymore


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had to google that! I feel like I've been insulted from a bygone age. 

Click to expand...

You weren't alone.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had to google that! I feel like I've been insulted from a bygone age. 

Click to expand...

Insults come in many guises. 😀
Not sure I want to be a member of the Cabinet though, well maybe one from IKEA, always a few nuts and screws missing. 😜


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## JamesR (Apr 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hearing again today - this time from Dominic Raab when asked about supplies of PPE - about the 1,000,000,000 items of PPE that have so far been delivered during this period of crisis.  *Is it OK to ask how this is made up* *without* *being accused of being* *political*?  All very well telling us a huge number if 95% of that number is single-use disposable gloves.
		
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No


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2020)

JamesR said:



			No
		
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Indeed - It would appear not.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 22, 2020)

There's just been a really interesting debate on C4 with various scientists for this interested. No politicizing just good old scientific debate.


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## bobmac (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - though asking for a breakdown of 1 billion items of *PPE *is not political.  As much as some would like to cast it to be it's not.  But OK.
		
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I didn't say PPE was political.
One more try.........

There's a seperate thread specifically for *PPE* and politics, can I suggest you use it please?
Thank you
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...litical-views-supporting-or-otherwise.104902/


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 23, 2020)

Not a good start. Massive surge in new patients and deaths blocked sinks to get fixed and big holes in today's roster to fill. It's definitely affecting me and finding it hard to feel enthused and positive each morning as I come in and a certain dread logging in


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## Fish (Apr 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not a good start. Massive surge in new patients and deaths blocked sinks to get fixed and big holes in today's roster to fill. It's definitely affecting me and finding it hard to feel enthused and positive each morning as I come in and a certain dread logging in
		
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It’s called the frontline for a reason, you put all those thoughts and feelings to one side, smile and get stuck in, just like the whistle in the trenches, you just take a breath and go up & over....

Whatever roles you’re actively involved in, people worse than you need you, be strong and crack on 👍


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## Hobbit (Apr 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not a good start. Massive surge in new patients and deaths blocked sinks to get fixed and big holes in today's roster to fill. It's definitely affecting me and finding it hard to feel enthused and positive each morning as I come in and a certain dread logging in
		
Click to expand...

A blocked sink today is the same as a blocked sink 6 months ago. A gap on the rota today is the same as a gap on the rota 6 months ago. And, sadly, the Unit hasn’t had a 100% success rate over the last 6 months either.

Pick up the phone and ring Facilities. Then pick up the phone and ring round to fill your rota.

Compartmentalise, don’t let it become a tsunami of problems. It will overwhelm you if you do.

You care for your colleagues. You want the best for them. Roll the sleeves up, paint the smile on and give them your best.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 23, 2020)

Fish said:



			It’s called the frontline for a reason, you put all those thoughts and feelings to one side, smile and get stuck in, just like the whistle in the trenches, you just take a breath and go up & over....

Whatever roles you’re actively involved in, people worse than you need you, be strong and crack on 👍
		
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Hobbit said:



			A blocked sink today is the same as a blocked sink 6 months ago. A gap on the rota today is the same as a gap on the rota 6 months ago. And, sadly, the Unit hasn’t had a 100% success rate over the last 6 months either.

Pick up the phone and ring Facilities. Then pick up the phone and ring round to fill your rota.

Compartmentalise, don’t let it become a tsunami of problems. It will overwhelm you if you do.

You care for your colleagues. You want the best for them. Roll the sleeves up, paint the smile on and give them your best.
		
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Totally agree. I think most of the staff have had a "wobble" during this and guess today's my turn and not feeling it and it all seems and effort. It's all good and I'm sure the day will improve and at least I'm lucky enough to be out and interacting with people. Think some of it is born from everyone saying we've peaked and no-one here seeing any reflection of that and our localised numbers of infections increasing


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## MegaSteve (Apr 23, 2020)

Just back from a walk to the High St... Seems, apart from the majority of the shops being shut it had the appearance of life being back to normal... 

Saddest part was seeing three hearses on their way to the crem ... With the simplest of coffins and no flowers... Too many families are now having to cope with the heartbreak of loss with the feeling of being helpless...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2020)

Hair's getting a little uncomfortably long.  Unless I have something done about it it'll be back to how it was in the late-1970s when I was at Uni.  But hey - that'll fit with my vinyl listening.

On the mega up side of things - with my 90yr old MiL at home being 'shielded' from the virus - she has twigged that the on-line Tesco shop we did for her that she thought was 'marvellous' - was only possible as we had internet access...and so we are sorting it for her 

Halley-bleedin-looyah...We tried a few years ago but she wasn't having it - for all of about £10/month on top of what she currently pays for landline.  But she just could not see why she'd need it...However with her Tesco on-line shop and home delivery, we have there in front of her why it would be good for her to have internet access


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## rosecott (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hair's getting a little uncomfortably long.  Unless I have something done about it it'll be back to how it was in the late-1970s when I was at Uni.  But hey - that'll fit with my vinyl listening.

On the mega up side of things - with my 90yr old MiL at home being 'shielded' from the virus - she has twigged that the on-line Tesco shop we did for her that she thought was 'marvellous' - was only possible as we had internet access...and so we are sorting it for her 

Halley-bleedin-looyah...We tried a few years ago but she wasn't having it - for all of about £10/month on top of what she currently pays for landline.  But she just could not see why she'd need it...However with her Tesco on-line shop and home delivery, we have there in front of her why it would be good for her to have internet access 

Click to expand...


Good luck with initiation into the wonderful world of the internet. I have been trying for more than 5 years to get my 91-year old nextdoor neighbour to embrace modern technology. Unfortunately, she had a fall recently, fractured a shoulder, was eventually moved from hospital to an NHS care unit, contracted covin and is now on palliative care.


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## GB72 (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hair's getting a little uncomfortably long.  Unless I have something done about it it'll be back to how it was in the late-1970s when I was at Uni.  But hey - that'll fit with my vinyl listening.

On the mega up side of things - with my 90yr old MiL at home being 'shielded' from the virus - she has twigged that the on-line Tesco shop we did for her that she thought was 'marvellous' - was only possible as we had internet access...and so we are sorting it for her 

Halley-bleedin-looyah...We tried a few years ago but she wasn't having it - for all of about £10/month on top of what she currently pays for landline.  But she just could not see why she'd need it...However with her Tesco on-line shop and home delivery, we have there in front of her why it would be good for her to have internet access 

Click to expand...

Having got my mum on the internet, I spent years trying to get her on Whatsapp for ease of contact. No luck until the ladies at the golf club set up a group for lockdown and now I get told every day how wonderful it is and wny did I not get her set up on it sooner. Sadly she has now discovered Gifs and Emojis and I get a stream of them all day


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## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Good luck with initiation into the wonderful world of the internet. I have been trying for more than 5 years to get my 91-year old nextdoor neighbour to embrace modern technology. Unfortunately, she had a fall recently, fractured a shoulder, was eventually moved from hospital to an NHS care unit, contracted covin and is now on palliative care.
		
Click to expand...

What a sad story.


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## rosecott (Apr 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What a sad story.
		
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Just been told she has passed away - life is grim.


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## drdel (Apr 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not a good start. Massive surge in new patients and deaths blocked sinks to get fixed and big holes in today's roster to fill. It's definitely affecting me and finding it hard to feel enthused and positive each morning as I come in and a certain dread logging in
		
Click to expand...

Apologise in advance for bad taste. I scanned your post quickly and read "....patients and deaths blocked sinks ...".

Conjured up some startling images for 'Die- no Rod' - sorry again.

All the best.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 23, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just been told she has passed away - life is grim.
		
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So sorry to hear that mate. You tried your best for her. 🙏


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## Wolf (Apr 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Totally agree. I think most of the staff have had a "wobble" during this and guess today's my turn and not feeling it and it all seems and effort. It's all good and I'm sure the day will improve and at least I'm lucky enough to be out and interacting with people. Think some of it is born from everyone saying we've peaked and no-one here seeing any reflection of that and our localised numbers of infections increasing
		
Click to expand...

Just my opinion Homer but you and 
others in NHS need to forget about peaks and take a pragmatic approach as much as it would be nice for you all to have an end in sight you need to work as though it's not soon. 

Look at it from another perspective, akin to any war you fight the battle immediately in front of you taking small steps towards to end of that war you don't know when that will come or peak but you still prepare for it with the small victories you win each day. If you have a wobble you acknowledge it and take strength from still being standing depsite it then move on to the next supporting your team and them supporting you till its truly over. 

It is a hard way to look at it but do so knowing you have the full support of your colleagues, the public and everyone in general. Allow yourselves to laugh even at low moments and know when the end does come you all have done the nation proud 👍🏻


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## AmandaJR (Apr 23, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just been told she has passed away - life is grim.
		
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So sad...


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Totally agree. I think most of the staff have had a "wobble" during this and guess today's my turn and not feeling it and it all seems and effort. It's all good and I'm sure the day will improve and at least I'm lucky enough to be out and interacting with people. Think some of it is born from everyone saying we've peaked and no-one here seeing any reflection of that and our localised numbers of infections increasing
		
Click to expand...

Having a blocked sink any other day probably wouldn’t bother you but when under pressure it’s another thing that just grates.
Everyone is entitled to have a wobble ,that’s when you find out who your friends are.
I am sure you will sort it out just don’t over think it.
The public appreciates what you are doing , 
Hopefully it won’t be long now until we get over this , so chin up.
My son tells me every day about his work so appreciate what your going through.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Just been told she has passed away - life is grim.
		
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😔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Having got my mum on the internet, I spent years trying to get her on Whatsapp for ease of contact. No luck until the ladies at the golf club set up a group for lockdown and now I get told every day how wonderful it is and wny did I not get her set up on it sooner. Sadly she has now discovered Gifs and Emojis and I get a stream of them all day
		
Click to expand...

We will try and 'sell' her Houseparty or Zoom...for keeping in touch...

We managed to get my mum using a laptop and on-line when she was about 70.  Unfortunately she didn't get much further using the laptop than looking at a folder of family photo I put on the desktop - and playing solitaire...she kind of knew a bit about Email but didn't use it - didn't really understand it.  Besides - she'd say - I like going to the post office to post stuff as I can have a chat, and I like getting my mail delivered as I can have a chat with my postie.  No argument there.

We may try and sort out on-line banking for her and get her onto Facebook so she can see what all her children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews and grand nieces, nephews etc are doing.  One of my aunts at near 90 herself is a keen user of Facebook for that.


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We will try and 'sell' her Houseparty or Zoom...for keeping in touch...

We managed to get my mum using a laptop and on-line when she was about 70.  Unfortunately she didn't get much further using the laptop than looking at a folder of family photo I put on the desktop - and playing solitaire...she kind of knew a bit about Email but didn't use it - didn't really understand it.  Besides - she'd say - I like going to the post office to post stuff as I can have a chat, and I like getting my mail delivered as I can have a chat with my postie.  No argument there.

We may try and sort out on-line banking for her and get her onto Facebook so she can see what all her children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews and grand nieces, nephews etc are doing.  One of my aunts at near 90 herself is a keen user of Facebook for that.
		
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Slowly slowly catch a monkey. On line banking is great and my MIL is a fan at 86 but much talking and teaching about security both personally and on her equipment took time and was  best done face to face in our case.


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## Crazyface (Apr 23, 2020)

I'm currently delivering groceries to the vunerable. It's a bit of an eye opener. 

1. Some are scared to death (no pun intended)
2. Most struggle with cards and technology. (card machine) I cannot go near to assist. 

Takes a while to get round the deliveries.

PS The Staff at the Morrisons where I am gave a lady who is on her own a bunch of flowers / signed card / and chocolates. I got to drop them off. 

Made my bluddy day !!!!!!!!


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## IanM (Apr 23, 2020)

The son of our regular 4 ball has been released from hospital and is now at home recovering............. phew.  Hadn't heard anything for a few days, was getting worried.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Slowly slowly catch a monkey. On line banking is great and my MIL is a fan at 86 but much talking and teaching about security both personally and on her equipment took time and was  best done face to face in our case.
		
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In the first instance internet access is primarily for my BiL who is back home.  We'll send him an invite for a Zoom or Houseparty chat and we will get my MiL onto that with him - she'll be amazed...as she's never been on anything like that before.  BiL can then do on-line home delivery shops for them.  Just little nudges to help her accepting the part that the internet can play in her life.

And maybe a few weeks after initial exposure we can think about  setting up on-line banking for her.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the first instance internet access is primarily for my BiL who is back home.  We'll send him an invite for a Zoom or Houseparty chat and we will get my MiL onto that with him - she'll be amazed...as she's never been on anything like that before.  BiL can then do on-line home delivery shops for them.  Just little nudges to help her accepting the part that the internet can play in her life.

*And maybe a few weeks after initial exposure we can think about  setting up on-line banking for her.*

Click to expand...

I'd really think hard about that. You won't be there when those scam phone calls start. Is it really necessary that she is online for banking?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We will try and 'sell' her Houseparty or Zoom...for keeping in touch...

We managed to get my mum using a laptop and on-line when she was about 70.  Unfortunately she didn't get much further using the laptop than looking at a folder of family photo I put on the desktop - and playing solitaire...she kind of knew a bit about Email but didn't use it - didn't really understand it.  Besides - she'd say - I like going to the post office to post stuff as I can have a chat, and I like getting my mail delivered as I can have a chat with my postie.  No argument there.

We may try and sort out on-line banking for her and get her onto Facebook so she can see what all her children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews and grand nieces, nephews etc are doing.  One of my aunts at near 90 herself is a keen user of Facebook for that.
		
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Call her on WhatsApp? It's video call is ok

I think the best is Google duo personally


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## Rlburnside (Apr 23, 2020)

Very impressed with Nicola Sturgeon today, her outlining the way forward was grim in some respects but she is trying to be upfront and honest with the public, that’s all I wanted to hear from our Westminster politicians, instead of treating the public like infants.


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Very impressed with Nicola Sturgeon today, her outlining the way forward was grim in some respects but she is trying to be upfront and honest with the public, that’s all I wanted to hear from our Westminster politicians, instead of treating the public like infants.
		
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To be fair, it was no different from what was said at the beginning of the week on the daily briefing and as she takes part in Cobra briefings it doesn't have any surprises.

She does come across very well on her briefings in tone and substance.


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## IanM (Apr 23, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Hope you don't mind my silly sense of humour chuckling at that, his mum was popular I take it? 😁
		
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Ooops ...missed out the "one of".... 

Must read before transmitting


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2020)

3 RNLI call outs today for surfers and stranded numpteys. Not happy bunnies.


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## User20204 (Apr 23, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Very impressed with Nicola Sturgeon today, her outlining the way forward was grim in some respects but she is trying to be upfront and honest with the public, that’s all I wanted to hear from our Westminster politicians, instead of treating the public like infants.
		
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What about the question she got from a Record reporter, in regarding Christmas, she did very well to remain calm in light of that question, utterly absurd question.


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## IanM (Apr 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			3 RNLI call outs today for surfers and stranded numpteys. Not happy bunnies.
		
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You dont know half of it


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## hovis (Apr 24, 2020)

silly thing to get annoyed about but why are bbc covering a story about march retail figures are the lowest on record?   I mean duuurrrrrrhhhhhh!  was anyone expecting a boom?


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## Imurg (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			silly thing to get annoyed about but why are bbc covering a story about march retail figures are the lowest on record?   I mean duuurrrrrrhhhhhh!  was anyone expecting a boom?
		
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There was a report on the Sky News website the other day- TomTom revealed there has been an 80% drop in satnav use in the last month.....NoSherlock...


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## hovis (Apr 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			There was a report on the Sky News website the other day- TomTom revealed there has been an 80% drop in satnav use in the last month.....NoSherlock...

Click to expand...

God, that's even worse


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## Doodle (Apr 24, 2020)

I am absolutely sure that the media / hacks have a secret ongoing competition to see who can ask the most stupid question of the day & get a reply from a minister.


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2020)

A friend's son has had it. 22 years old, lives in the gym, plays 5-a-side a couple of times a week and Sunday league. Out for a run a couple of times a week. Basically a super fit guy. Had what he thought was C19, and did the right things, self-isolating etc. Came out the other side, symptoms diminished etc..... apart from he was getting breathless walking any distance or walking up stairs. Going out for his run is out of the question at present.

Getting a little concerned about the breathlessness he took himself off to the docs, who sent him for an x-ray. Extensive scarring to the lungs and some pockets of fluid still in there. He has youth and a base fitness level on his side but the scarring won't disappear completely and whether he'll be out playing football and going to the gym remains to be seen.

His view on lockdown now is very different to the feeling of invincibility he had.


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## Crazyface (Apr 24, 2020)

Day off yesterday. Very productive. Weeks shopping done, Tescos very quiet for a change. Cleared tree cuttings. Watered lawn (grass seed finally germinating). Put together fire pit ready for weekend. Re-gripped a golf club, first ever attempt, easy peasy....who knew??????. Cooked a new dish for tea, very nice it was. Drank 3/4 of a bottle of wine. Watched a cr...rubbish film.


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## Crazyface (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A friend's son has had it. 22 years old, lives in the gym, plays 5-a-side a couple of times a week and Sunday league. Out for a run a couple of times a week. Basically a super fit guy. Had what he thought was C19, and did the right things, self-isolating etc. Came out the other side, symptoms diminished etc..... apart from he was getting breathless walking any distance or walking up stairs. Going out for his run is out of the question at present.

Getting a little concerned about the breathlessness he took himself off to the docs, who sent him for an x-ray. Extensive scarring to the lungs and some pockets of fluid still in there. He has youth and a base fitness level on his side but the scarring won't disappear completely and whether he'll be out playing football and going to the gym remains to be seen.

His view on lockdown now is very different to the feeling of invincibility he had.
		
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OMG!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A friend's son has had it. 22 years old, lives in the gym, plays 5-a-side a couple of times a week and Sunday league. Out for a run a couple of times a week. Basically a super fit guy. Had what he thought was C19, and did the right things, self-isolating etc. Came out the other side, symptoms diminished etc..... apart from he was getting breathless walking any distance or walking up stairs. Going out for his run is out of the question at present.

Getting a little concerned about the breathlessness he took himself off to the docs, who sent him for an x-ray. Extensive scarring to the lungs and some pockets of fluid still in there. He has youth and a base fitness level on his side but the scarring won't disappear completely and whether he'll be out playing football and going to the gym remains to be seen.

His view on lockdown now is very different to the feeling of invincibility he had.
		
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It seems to be like this with some people. My Daughter is still struggling with her breathing and feeling weak over three weeks since having it.  Maybe this is what has happened with Boris as he still seems low.


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## hovis (Apr 24, 2020)

.


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## patricks148 (Apr 24, 2020)

Seen it all now!!!

cycling with the dog this morning past  Whinn Park and  load of body builders setting up a weight lifting agear from their cars in the car park, came back past a hour later a dozen of them crowded around us using the weights dumbells and free weights


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## Foxholer (Apr 24, 2020)

Doodle said:



			I am absolutely sure that the media / hacks have a secret ongoing competition to see who can ask the most stupid question of the day & get a reply from a minister.
		
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At least it's subtly different from Trump's news conferences - comp seems to be 'Who asks the question that gets the stupidest reply'!


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2020)

Finally, more daily recoveries than new infections in Spain. Also, 367 deaths. Twice in the last week there's been less than 400 declared. A week ago the average was over 500, and a week before that the average was over 600. This week looks like the average will be comfortably in the 400's. 

The new lockdown has been announced, another 2 weeks but with one restriction lifted. Children under 14 are allowed out to play but not with anyone who isn't from their house. Also, a carrot has been dangled. More restrictions to be lifted in 2 weeks time providing the numbers continue to improve. Several of the regional presidents are arguing for tourism to be opened up by late July.


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## BrianM (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A friend's son has had it. 22 years old, lives in the gym, plays 5-a-side a couple of times a week and Sunday league. Out for a run a couple of times a week. Basically a super fit guy. Had what he thought was C19, and did the right things, self-isolating etc. Came out the other side, symptoms diminished etc..... apart from he was getting breathless walking any distance or walking up stairs. Going out for his run is out of the question at present.

Getting a little concerned about the breathlessness he took himself off to the docs, who sent him for an x-ray. Extensive scarring to the lungs and some pockets of fluid still in there. He has youth and a base fitness level on his side but the scarring won't disappear completely and whether he'll be out playing football and going to the gym remains to be seen.

His view on lockdown now is very different to the feeling of invincibility he had.
		
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This was my biggest problem Brian, just blowing out of your backside doing nothing.
Although I’m nowhere near as fit as your friend.


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## BrianM (Apr 24, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Seen it all now!!!

cycling with the dog this morning past  Whinn Park and  load of body builders setting up a weight lifting agear from their cars in the car park, came back past a hour later a dozen of them crowded around us using the weights dumbells and free weights

Click to expand...

Mindless idiots Patrick.
Seen there was golfers playing the Kings earlier on in the week, they have been reported to police.


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## IainP (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Finally, more daily recoveries than new infections in Spain. Also, 367 deaths. Twice in the last week there's been less than 400 declared. A week ago the average was over 500, and a week before that the average was over 600. This week looks like the average will be comfortably in the 400's. 

The new lockdown has been announced, another 2 weeks but with one restriction lifted. Children under 14 are allowed out to play but not with anyone who isn't from their house. Also, a carrot has been dangled. More restrictions to be lifted in 2 weeks time providing the numbers continue to improve. Several of the regional presidents are arguing for tourism to be opened up by late July.
		
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Good to read. The time it has taken (and is taking) to come down in Spain & Italy is info we should take note of in the UK.

Anything behind the number of new cases though?


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			Good to read. The time it has taken (and is taking) to come down in Spain & Italy is info we should take note of in the UK.

Anything behind the number of new cases though?
		
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There was a comment made today about the different rates of infection in different areas allied to the number of fines or lack of in those areas. The 3 lowest areas of infection/1,000 citizens are in SE and SW Spain. All 3 areas are considered to be the most compliant with the lockdown rules. Almeria region (SE Spain) has had 2 deaths in the last 7 days.

Going in the right direction but still a long way to go.


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## patricks148 (Apr 24, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Mindless idiots Patrick.
Seen there was golfers playing the Kings earlier on in the week, they have been reported to police.
		
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That's just the Courier making up a Story. 

a couple of guys were spotted playing last weekend, an email came round from the club asking if anyone see's them again while walking to call the Police, nothing was done at the time. i don't think they were members anyway

Mind you, been reg members using the practice ground, i've seen them a few times and my mate Gordy has too, he knows them by name, club were not that interested when he reported it


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## Italian outcast (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Finally, more daily recoveries than new infections in Spain. Also, 367 deaths. Twice in the last week there's been less than 400 declared. A week ago the average was over 500, and a week before that the average was over 600. This week looks like the average will be comfortably in the 400's.

The new lockdown has been announced, another 2 weeks but with one restriction lifted. Children under 14 are allowed out to play but not with anyone who isn't from their house. Also, a carrot has been dangled. More restrictions to be lifted in 2 weeks time providing the numbers continue to improve. Several of the regional presidents are arguing for tourism to be opened up by late July.
		
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IainP said:



			Good to read. The time it has taken (and is taking) to come down in Spain & Italy is info we should take note of in the UK.

Anything behind the number of new cases though?
		
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I think the reality is that in both Spain and here in Italy - the flattening of the curve and the plateau is longer than was hoped for
So while in both countries it is going in the right direction - it is all a bit more prolonged
Like Spain - reopening carrots have been issued i Italy now - some staggered broader social opening on May 4th and 11th
I think both countries know they must be cautious - as they can't put lockdown back in play too quickly either - start-stop-start-stop is far worse for the economy
Also I reckon they may also see what macron says RE France - effectively they are now similar to Spain & Italy in general disease burden demographics
A long haul
Though it seems like we may have golf sometime in later May 
All you guys with too many un-wanted new golf balls - PM me and my Nigerian caddy will be in touch


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## JustOne (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Finally, more daily recoveries than new infections in Spain. Also, 367 deaths. Twice in the last week there's been less than 400 declared. A week ago the average was over 500, and a week before that the average was over 600. This week looks like the average will be comfortably in the 400's.
		
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Ok, a bit cynical, but - if there is an area that has high level of covid then surely as the vunerable die the numbers will go down?


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## DRW (Apr 24, 2020)

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/new-york-virus-deaths-top-15k-cuomo-expected-to-detail-plan-to-fight-nursing-home-outbreaks/2386556/

Another set of antibody tests, showing quite a wide spread infection already potentially. All the ones I have seen from various countries, tend to indicate 10-20% of infection, on fairly low numbers of antibody tests undertaken but still an indicator.

Surprising.


Also still cant not get my head around how Sweden hospitalizations are dropping. Begs the question if a lockdown is not massively more effective than other measures(such as just work from home & social distancing). That goes against my gut reaction to say tho but still Sweden just doesn't quite fit. Yes more deaths than other Nordic countries but has the virus spread further, so further along the 'journey' as such, so you would expect more deaths. And so many other unanswerable questions with Sweden and a few more countries like Italy and Spain(still very many new cases are still being registered after all these weeks of fairly strict lockdowns). Of to ponder some more


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## hovis (Apr 24, 2020)

I think I'm going to stop watching the news.  they are now reporting that trump said he recommended injecting bleach.  he actually said disinfectant but hey, bleach sounds better right!!! 
what he actually said was "disinfectant kills this disease within one minute. is there something we could do with that?  can we inject something like that? “   he was asking the question to a doctor not telling Americans to inject bleach.

they really do just say what they want.


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## Imurg (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			I think I'm going to stop watching the news.  they are now reporting that trump said he recommended injecting bleach.  he actually said disinfectant but hey, bleach sounds better right!!!
what he actually said was "disinfectant kills this disease within one minute. is there something we could do with that?  can we inject something like that? “   he was asking the question to a doctor not telling Americans to inject bleach.

they really do just say what they want.
		
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Despite warnings from disinfectant and bleach manufacturers  if one person does this and dies.........America will do nothing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			I think I'm going to stop watching the news.  they are now reporting that trump said he recommended injecting bleach.  he actually said disinfectant but hey, bleach sounds better right!!!
what he actually said was "disinfectant kills this disease within one minute. is there something we could do with that?  can we inject something like that? “   he was asking the question to a doctor not telling Americans to inject bleach.

they really do just say what they want.
		
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This pandemic has finally cemented my view of journalists.
They have no intention about helping, it's all about their careers.
The first attribute for a journalist seems to be." I know what (s)he said, but what did (s he ) really mean".
And they speculate from there.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Despite warnings from disinfectant and bleach manufacturers  if one person does this and dies.........America will do nothing.
		
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If one person does that, then it is their responsibility, isn't it?
Why is it always someone else's fault?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2020)

My Mrs has just looked at my hair and said 'You are going to be grey when we get out of lockdown'.  Ah well.  So be it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs has just looked at my hair and said 'You are going to be grey when we get out of lockdown'.  Ah well.  So be it.
		
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Join the club. 😀  You may start using the word *distinguished* more!


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## Imurg (Apr 24, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If one person does that, then it is their responsibility, isn't it?
Why is it always someone else's fault?
		
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Because Trump has effectively implied that doing this may stop the virus.........


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			I think I'm going to stop watching the news.  they are now reporting that trump said he recommended injecting bleach.  he actually said disinfectant but hey, bleach sounds better right!!!
what he actually said was "disinfectant kills this disease within one minute. is there something we could do with that?  can we inject something like that? “   he was asking the question to a doctor not telling Americans to inject bleach.

they really do just say what they want.
		
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Did you spot that Trump talked about disinfectant at the same time he was talking about UV light - and on the latter he was asking the scientist who had raised UV and disinfectant...

_ “So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light and I think you said that hasn’t been checked but you’re going to test it. And then I said s*upposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. *And I think you’re going to test that too?” _

_Then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way we can do something like that *by injection inside? Or almost a cleaning, ‘cause you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. *_

Now remember that part of the audience who will do whatever Trump suggests, and then consider that Trump was talking about UV and disinfectant together as possible 'treatments' (with the most commonly used disinfectant most have to hand perhaps being bleach), and the disinfectant  for _*cleaning the lungs.*_..and you might draw an implied conclusion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 24, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Join the club. 😀  You may start using the word *distinguished* more!
		
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I'm thinking that having a full head of near black hair at my age, does nothing for me aiming for the George Clooney Salt&Pepper look...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you spot that Trump talked about disinfectant at the same time he was talking about UV light - and on the latter he was asking the scientist who had raised UV and disinfectant...

_ “So supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light and I think you said that hasn’t been checked but you’re going to test it. And then I said s*upposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. *And I think you’re going to test that too?” _

_Then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. Is there a way we can do something like that *by injection inside? Or almost a cleaning, ‘cause you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. *_

Now remember that part of the audience who will do whatever Trump suggests, and then consider that Trump was talking about UV and disinfectant together as possible 'treatments' (with the most commonly used disinfectant most have to hand perhaps being bleach), and the disinfectant  for _*cleaning the lungs.*_..and you might draw an implied conclusion.
		
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Clean around the bend!


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## ScienceBoy (Apr 24, 2020)

Finally a ray of hope, I swear I just heard an ice cream van pull up round the corner.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			I think I'm going to stop watching the news.  they are now reporting that trump said he recommended injecting bleach.  he actually said disinfectant but hey, bleach sounds better right!!!
what he actually said was "disinfectant kills this disease within one minute. is there something we could do with that?  can we inject something like that? “   he was asking the question to a doctor not telling Americans to inject bleach.

they really do just say what they want.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't see that but this morning for the first time I can remember - I didn't watch the news. On the 10pm news last night we had Laura K...berg sucking up to the Scottish First Minister and completing her question with "are Westminster treating their public like children". When the TV went on this morning I heard Naga interviewing Hancock so turned to ITV which was talking about Doctors suing the NHS and that was enough. From today I'll watch the evening briefing and then my usual diet of morning, early evening and 10pm news will be off the menu for the forseeable.


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## GB72 (Apr 24, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			Finally a ray of hope, I swear I just heard an ice cream van pull up round the corner.
		
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Easter weekend the ice cream van went around our village and did not get a welcome reception especially from parents keeping their kids in. Not been back since.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			What about the question she got from a Record reporter, in regarding Christmas, she did very well to remain calm in light of that question, utterly absurd question.
		
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You sense she is just going to let rip at one of those stupid so called journalists questions.
She gave 'the eyes' to one today but somebody is going to get both barrels soon.
She has been an absolute star through this crisis, head and shoulders above the rest except probably the UK Chancellor.


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## GB72 (Apr 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I didn't see that but this morning for the first time I can remember - I didn't watch the news. On the 10pm news last night we had Laura K...berg sucking up to the Scottish First Minister and completing her question with "are Westminster treating their public like children". When the TV went on this morning I heard Naga interviewing Hancock so turned to ITV which was talking about Doctors suing the NHS and that was enough. From today I'll watch the evening briefing and then my usual diet of morning, early evening and 10pm news will be off the menu for the forseeable.
		
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I have given up on the news now as well. Even the briefing gets turned off after the announcement. The questioning is, from the big networks that always start, generally awful. It is a pity as some of the smaller outlets at the end have come up with some interesting questions that do not revolve around point scoring, one last week asked about whether consideration was being given to how to deal with mental health issues that may arise from people being fearful of going out and being in more crowded areas that resulted in what appeared to be an honest, unrehearsed response.


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## drdel (Apr 24, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I didn't see that but this morning for the first time I can remember - I didn't watch the news. On the 10pm news last night we had Laura K...berg sucking up to the Scottish First Minister and completing her question with "are Westminster treating their public like children". When the TV went on this morning I heard Naga interviewing Hancock so turned to ITV which was talking about Doctors suing the NHS and that was enough. From today I'll watch the evening briefing and then my usual diet of morning, early evening and 10pm news will be off the menu for the forseeable.
		
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I agree its pretty dire driven by presenter's ego

It is fairly obvious from the data that Social Distancing has brought the 'curve' to a flatter shape but it also shows that the rate of decline is going to be very gentle. I'd think that means the virus is going to keep infecting people at an uncomfortable level for several months.

Hancock fears that when people see the downward slope they will decide SD isn't for them and that with the help of the media bleating on about relaxing controls could be a disaster.

Its the old "guns v butter" economics conundrum.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 24, 2020)

Why are there still so many flights coming into The UK. 15,000 was quoted but unsure whether that is correct.

New Zealand seems to have sorted this out with no International flights from Christchurch. Nobody can travel on internal flights unless key personne. They are going down from level 4 to level 3.

Just to show how serious they are there was a flight possibly last month From Auckland internally with 83 passengers due to fly. There were 83 no shows, repeat the flight departed without passengers.

We need to follow their example. Excellent PM, highly respected


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## hovis (Apr 24, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Why are there still so many flights coming into The UK. 15,000 was quoted but unsure whether that is correct.

New Zealand seems to have sorted this out with no International flights from Christchurch. Nobody can travel on internal flights unless key personne. They are going down from level 4 to level 3.

Just to show how serious they are there was a flight possibly last month From Auckland internally with 83 passengers due to fly. There were 83 no shows, repeat the flight departed without passengers.

We need to follow their example. Excellent PM, highly respected
		
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this has already been covered on this thread and was mentioned during the daily briefing a few days ago.  the majority of people entering the country are returning residents.  the others are people that have a purpose to be here.  like Eastern European pickers for Example.   when asked why we're not testing them it was said that the numbers coming in was a drop in the ocean and they have to practice social distancing anyway


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## DanFST (Apr 24, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Why are there still so many flights coming into The UK. 15,000 was quoted but unsure whether that is correct.
		
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I remember reading that also, but I think it's fabricated. Theres 6 international flights the rest of the day arriving into Heathrow for example. I saw couple repatriation flights overhead yesterday but that was it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

ITV reporter made to look silly by Jenny Harris at the briefing:

Reporter said it's was unfair to expect essential workers to come off shift and have to wait on line for the testing web site to open up.

Jenny explained to the child that as the testing was for those showing systems they shouldn't be at work in the first place..

Another example of the gotcha mentality of today's reporters.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			this has already been covered on this thread and was mentioned during the daily briefing a few days ago.  the majority of people entering the country are returning residents.  the others are people that have a purpose to be here.  like Eastern European pickers for Example.   when asked why we're not testing them it was said that the numbers coming in was a drop in the ocean and they have to practice social distancing anyway
		
Click to expand...

The pickers were but in 14 day isolation on BIL fruit farm and a couple of others.


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## hovis (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The pickers were but in 14 day isolation on BIL fruit farm and a couple of others.
		
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14 isolation whilst picking fruit 😀.  I laugh but I bet they did


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			ITV reporter made to look silly by Jenny Harris at the briefing:

Reporter said it's was unfair to expect essential workers to come off shift and have to wait on line for the testing web site to open up.

Jenny explained to the child that as the testing was for those showing systems they shouldn't be at work in the first place..

Another example of the gotcha mentality of today's reporters.
		
Click to expand...

I thought the testing was now for any front line worker, showing symptoms or not?


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			14 isolation whilst picking fruit 😀.  I laugh but I bet they did
		
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No picking stayed in individual caravans


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I thought the testing was now for any front line worker, showing symptoms or not?
		
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Only if you are showing symptoms. No point if there is nothing wrong with you but you can bet your bottom dollar people with no brains will rock up just for confirmation that they are ok


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## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			this has already been covered on this thread and was mentioned during the daily briefing a few days ago.  the majority of people entering the country are returning residents.  the others are people that have a purpose to be here.  like Eastern European pickers for Example.   when asked why we're not testing them it was said that the numbers coming in was a drop in the ocean and they have to practice social distancing anyway
		
Click to expand...

My Neighbours returned from New Zealand yesterday, they went for a holiday to visit relatives over there for a four weeks, their flight back was cancelled two weeks ago so they had to stay on, they got back eventually on a chartered flight and were given a price of £47,000 for the flight which they couldnt pay, this was then reduced to £18,000 which was still too much for them, eventually they were offered the flight for £4,000. Both are in their 80s and are now on a 14 day quaranteen.


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## hovis (Apr 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My Neighbours returned from New Zealand yesterday, they went for a holiday to visit relatives over there for a four weeks, their flight back was cancelled two weeks ago so they had to stay on, they got back eventually on a chartered flight and were given a price of £47,000 for the flight which they couldnt pay, this was then reduced to £18,000 which was still too much for them, eventually they were offered the flight for £4,000. Both are in their 80s and are now on a 14 day quaranteen.
		
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blumin ek!!! £4k? that's another holiday


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## upsidedown (Apr 24, 2020)

Had to get 4 new tyres on the car today ( still mowing lawns ) and was guided into outdoor bay then directed to the public bench just up the way and I'll call you once I'm done . Sat chilling in the sun and noticed that the very few folks who did come past gave me a very wide berth but all said hello and we passed comments on the weather. Took 50 mins for the guy to do them all and then asked to wait by door aas he did invoice and input data into card terminal before i was beckoned forward to do my bit as he retreated to rear of office . Once card went through I retreated and he pulled out receipt ( gloved hands)  and passed it over with one of those litter pickers things , we wished each other all the best and I cleared off , top job


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## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2020)

hovis said:



			blumin ek!!! £4k? that's another holiday
		
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More than that as they were staying with relatives.


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## upsidedown (Apr 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My Neighbours returned from New Zealand yesterday, they went for a holiday to visit relatives over there for a four weeks, their flight back was cancelled two weeks ago so they had to stay on, they got back eventually on a chartered flight and were given a price of £47,000 for the flight which they couldnt pay, this was then reduced to £18,000 which was still too much for them, eventually they were offered the flight for £4,000. Both are in their 80s and are now on a 14 day quaranteen.
		
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Given the way NZ has handled this I would of stayed in the "family bubble" rather than returning .That's just plain extorsion from the airlines


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## Piece (Apr 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My Neighbours returned from New Zealand yesterday, they went for a holiday to visit relatives over there for a four weeks, their flight back was cancelled two weeks ago so they had to stay on, they got back eventually on a chartered flight and were given a price of * £47,000 * for the flight which they couldnt pay, this was then reduced to £18,000 which was still too much for them, eventually they were offered the flight for £4,000. Both are in their 80s and are now on a 14 day quaranteen.
		
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Branson, is that you?


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## pendodave (Apr 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Only if you are showing symptoms. No point if there is nothing wrong with you but you can bet your bottom dollar people with no brains will rock up just for confirmation that they are ok 

Click to expand...

It's a given that this will be the case, or that they think it's to tell them if they've had it...
I believe my colleagues and I will be eligible for this, it will be I interesting to see if anyone feels the need to take it, and if they test positive or not.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 24, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Given the way NZ has handled this I would of stayed in the "family bubble" rather than returning .That's just plain extorsion from the airlines 

Click to expand...

Their two dogs were in kennels and I think they felt it was time to come home now.


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## Fish (Apr 24, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I remember reading that also, but I think it's fabricated. Theres 6 international flights the rest of the day arriving into Heathrow for example. I saw couple repatriation flights overhead yesterday but that was it.
		
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I agree, I’ve driven all round Heathrow right next to most of the terminals and up & down the M25 constantly and I can’t remember a single one flying over me in weeks, so they must be very infrequent.


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2020)

Flights into Heathrow from Spain today. There were 4 flights from Spain today, and there are 7 scheduled for Sunday. In some cases the flights show Madrid to Barcelona to Heathrow. And on the UK-side some show the first stop as being Heathrow, then onto Glasgow.


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## fundy (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Flights into Heathrow from Spain today. There were 4 flights from Spain today, and there are 7 scheduled for Sunday. In some cases the flights show Madrid to Barcelona to Heathrow. And on the UK-side some show the first stop as being Heathrow, then onto Glasgow.
		
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Are there as many going the other way or are empty planes flying on the outward leg?


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## Hobbit (Apr 24, 2020)

fundy said:



			Are there as many going the other way or are empty planes flying on the outward leg?
		
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Most are British Airways flights originating from the UK. There's the odd Iberia flight, which I think is a subsidiary of British Airways. Whether there's passengers going the other way, possibly as there are Spaniards coming home and Brits with Residencia returning home. Ticket prices are mental. Some people returning to the UK are doing so via the tunnel.

To be honest, from what I read today from a Brit returning to the UK the paperwork to do so is mental.


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## DanFST (Apr 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Most are British Airways flights originating from the UK. There's the odd Iberia flight, which I think is a subsidiary of British Airways. Whether there's passengers going the other way, possibly as there are Spaniards coming home and Brits with Residencia returning home. Ticket prices are mental. Some people returning to the UK are doing so via the tunnel.

To be honest, from what I read today from a Brit returning to the UK the paperwork to do so is mental.
		
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HID's friend went back to Rome with AlItalia 2 weeks ago, said she was there was 5 on the flight.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

pendodave said:



			It's a given that this will be the case, or that they think it's to tell them if they've had it...
I believe my colleagues and I will be eligible for this, it will be I interesting to see if anyone feels the need to take it, and if they test positive or not.
		
Click to expand...

They will be disappointed then because it will only say if you have it not that you have had it. IMO it needs more control because it will be abused.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 24, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This pandemic has finally cemented my view of journalists.
They have no intention about helping, it's all about their careers.
The first attribute for a journalist seems to be." I know what (s)he said, but what did (s he ) really mean".
And they speculate from there.
		
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If only the answers were as easy as the question's.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 24, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Very impressed with Nicola Sturgeon today, her outlining the way forward was grim in some respects but she is trying to be upfront and honest with the public, that’s all I wanted to hear from our Westminster politicians, instead of treating the public like infants.
		
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I didnt see the Nicola Sturgeon news conference so can't comment on that. I see it the other way Roy - they have to keep repeating why a lockdown cannot yet be allowed, partly because of the stupid questions that are asked, when common sense should really tell them the answer.
It sometimes reminds me of when my kids were much younger - driving on holiday to Cornwall and they would say, after barely half an hour into the journey, "Are we nearly there yet"?


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## Rlburnside (Apr 25, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			I didnt see the Nicola Sturgeon news conference so can't comment on that. I see it the other way Roy - they have to keep repeating why a lockdown cannot yet be allowed, partly because of the stupid questions that are asked, when common sense should really tell them the answer.
It sometimes reminds me of when my kids were much younger - driving on holiday to Cornwall and they would say, after barely half an hour into the journey, "Are we nearly there yet"?
		
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The Scottish news conferences are different to the way the government ones are, you get the sense they are treating you like adults and letting the public know how they are planning a way forward. 
Having ministers coming on every night and basically saying the same thing and not letting on what plans they have for coming out of lockdown is not what I won’t to hear and find myself switching off.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 25, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I remember reading that also, but I think it's fabricated. Theres 6 international flights the rest of the day arriving into Heathrow for example. I saw couple repatriation flights overhead yesterday but that was it.
		
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Thought the figure of 15K came from government during one of the daily briefings... So, hopefully government aren't merely just plucking numbers out of the air to suit...


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 25, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			The Scottish news conferences are different to the way the government ones are, you get the sense they are treating you like adults and letting the public know how they are planning a way forward.
Having ministers coming on every night and basically saying the same thing and not letting on what plans they have for coming out of lockdown is not what I won’t to hear and find myself switching off.
		
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It quite clear to me why the government is not "letting on what plans they have...."
If they did they would need to give some specifics, maybe dates, permissions etc.
The journos, Starmer et al, would then regard those as set in stone, and would demand adherence, regardless of how the situation developed in the meantime. If things didn't go to plan, and the intentions had to change, there would be accusations of 1. Lies, 2.You don't know what you're doing, etc.
The government know that, and so do the likes of Starmer, and the journos.
The last two just want the government to fall into the trap.

The way the government are handling it leaves all the options open. Of course they have a road map, but it's a road with some junctions on it that they can choose to go down, depending on outcomes and the science.

The other reason is that there will be elements of the public which will start the plan when they see fit, rather than when the government intend it to happen, justifying their actions by saying it's what the government want.

Each night the ministers are giving information as to the situation, something you would knock if they didn't. Because it bores you, that is not a good enough reason to not do it, or do something else that would hamper their handling of the crisis.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 25, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Had to get 4 new tyres on the car today ( still mowing lawns ) and was guided into outdoor bay then directed to the public bench just up the way and I'll call you once I'm done . Sat chilling in the sun and noticed that the very few folks who did come past gave me a very wide berth but all said hello and we passed comments on the weather. Took 50 mins for the guy to do them all and then asked to wait by door aas he did invoice and input data into card terminal before i was beckoned forward to do my bit as he retreated to rear of office . Once card went through I retreated and he pulled out receipt ( gloved hands)  and passed it over with one of those litter pickers things , we wished each other all the best and I cleared off , top job 

Click to expand...

I like the litter picker touch .. might order that and just use it anyway even after shut down 🙂


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## harpo_72 (Apr 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It quite clear to me why the government is not "letting on what plans they have...."
If they did they would need to give some specifics, maybe dates, permissions etc.
The journos, Starmer et al, would then regard those as set in stone, and would demand adherence, regardless of how the situation developed in the meantime. If things didn't go to plan, and the intentions had to change, there would be accusations of 1. Lies, 2.You don't know what you're doing, etc.
The government know that, and so do the likes of Starmer, and the journos.
The last two just want the government to fall into the trap.

The way the government are handling it leaves all the options open. Of course they have a road map, but it's a road with some junctions on it that they can choose to go down, depending on outcomes and the science.

The other reason is that there will be elements of the public which will start the plan when they see fit, rather than when the government intend it to happen, justifying their actions by saying it's what the government want.

Each night the ministers are giving information as to the situation, something you would knock if they didn't. Because it bores you, that is not a good enough reason to not do it, or do something else that would hamper their handling of the crisis.
		
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If your worried about that then you set targets at key dates .. failure to meet those targets means you don’t progress to the next target ... and no I don’t think it’s a trap from the Labour Party, the press maybe but they influenced everyone to vote for Boris so why would they throw their man under the bus unless he is making an utter mess of it.
All your seeing is an inexperienced government trying to work it’s way through a mess they have no plans for. They also have a public who have lost faith in them and are not necessarily paying much attention to them - but this is all related to past behaviours.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 25, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			If your worried about that then you set targets at key dates .. failure to meet those targets means you don’t progress to the next target ... and no I don’t think it’s a trap from the Labour Party, the press maybe but they influenced everyone to vote for Boris so why would they throw their man under the bus unless he is making an utter mess of it.
All your seeing is an inexperienced government trying to work it’s way through a mess they have no plans for. They also have a public who have lost faith in them and are not necessarily paying much attention to them - but this is all related to past behaviours.
		
Click to expand...

Count me out of that "Public" reference in your last paragraph.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 25, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It quite clear to me why the government is not "letting on what plans they have...."
If they did they would need to give some specifics, maybe dates, permissions etc.
The journos, Starmer et al, would then regard those as set in stone, and would demand adherence, regardless of how the situation developed in the meantime. If things didn't go to plan, and the intentions had to change, there would be accusations of 1. Lies, 2.You don't know what you're doing, etc.
The government know that, and so do the likes of Starmer, and the journos.
The last two just want the government to fall into the trap.

The way the government are handling it leaves all the options open. Of course they have a road map, but it's a road with some junctions on it that they can choose to go down, depending on outcomes and the science.

The other reason is that there will be elements of the public which will start the plan when they see fit, rather than when the government intend it to happen, justifying their actions by saying it's what the government want.

Each night the ministers are giving information as to the situation, something you would knock if they didn't. Because it bores you, that is not a good enough reason to not do it, or do something else that would hamper their handling of the crisis.
		
Click to expand...

Well said. No more to add except just clicking "like" wasn't enough


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## harpo_72 (Apr 25, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			Count me out of that "Public" reference in your last paragraph.
		
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Your right it should have the word “percentage” in front.


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## drdel (Apr 25, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			If your worried about that then you set targets at key dates .. failure to meet those targets means you don’t progress to the next target ... and no I don’t think it’s a trap from the Labour Party, the press maybe but they influenced everyone to vote for Boris so why would they throw their man under the bus unless he is making an utter mess of it.
All your seeing is an inexperienced government trying to work it’s way through a mess they have no plans for. They also have a public who have lost faith in them and are not necessarily paying much attention to them - but this is all related to past behaviours.
		
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A very large portion of the 'public' are stupid. 

Declaring any 'plan' will lead to a preemptive rush to 'freedom': just look at the panic buying of toilet rolls etc. Public 'moderation' has gone down in direct proportion to the media hype going up.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 25, 2020)

drdel said:



			A very large portion of the 'public' are stupid.

Declaring any 'plan' will lead to a preemptive rush to 'freedom': just look at the panic buying of toilet rolls etc. Public 'moderation' has gone down in direct proportion to the media hype going up.
		
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Don’t think we can say “stupid “ perhaps a different opinion to our own ? 

I think the government should divulge, make it precise and clear. I suppose it’s like the discussion about the Brexit negotiation strategy, and we all stand in different places with that one. 

I am not of the opinion that a faction has a right to deem another, not wise enough to understand it. It’s very similar to a manager saying a reportee is a problem. A sweeping statement that shows no inclination to do the leg work or accept you have to give the benefit of the doubt.. but I know my views are In a minority on this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

drdel said:



*A very large portion of the 'public' are stupid.*

Declaring any 'plan' will lead to a preemptive rush to 'freedom': just look at the panic buying of toilet rolls etc. Public 'moderation' has gone down in direct proportion to the media hype going up.
		
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Well that’s a recent thing as they weren’t back in June 2016...😉


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## harpo_72 (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that’s a recent thing as they weren’t back in June 2016...😉
		
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steady ...! 🤣 let’s keep that to another thread!!


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that’s a recent thing as they weren’t back in June 2016...😉
		
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harpo_72 said:



			steady ...! 🤣 let’s keep that to another thread!!
		
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But he's right, they weren't stupid back then. They voted Leave


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

Sturgeon, has talked a lot but in reality she has told us nothing that any reasonably intelligent person would be thinking themselves.
The little dig  about treating us like grown ups, are they the same grownups who defeated her independence referendum?
Make no mistake Sturgeon sees the present situation as a means to try and come across as some wonderful leader, always trying to get her wee bit in first to wrong foot Westminster 
Her ultimate goal will never change, thankfully us grownups know that.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 25, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Sturgeon, has talked a lot but in reality she has told us nothing that any reasonably intelligent person would be thinking themselves.
The little dig  about treating us like grown ups, are they the same grownups who defeated her independence referendum?
Make no mistake Sturgeon sees the present situation as a means to try and come across as some wonderful leader, always trying to get her wee bit in first to wrong foot Westminster
Her ultimate goal will never change, thankfully us grownups know that.
		
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Ooh another post where just clicking "like" doesn't suffice 

This forum is cheering me up very nicely today.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 25, 2020)

Although we should probably be on the other Political Cornona thread - oopsie...

It is very noticable how different the treatment of the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers is - certainly by the BBC. They suck up and give them a platform and move on. The opposite to any of the Cabinet.


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## Foxholer (Apr 25, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			...They also have *a public who have lost faith in them* and are not necessarily paying much attention to them ...
		
Click to expand...

I haven't noticed any evidence of this!

As for 'The Press'. They are simply doing their job - holding politicians to account, at least given their editorial attitudes.

All the (UK) daily briefs I've watched have been OK, if (understandably) occasionally lacking in 'detailed policy direction' - it's a moving target after all! Quite a different environment to Trump's ones!


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## bluewolf (Apr 25, 2020)

You should get a professional fitting 👍





This actually feels better 😂


----------



## Imurg (Apr 25, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			You should get a professional fitting 👍





This actually feels better 😂
		
Click to expand...

I think you're turning into more of a Greywolf than a Bluewolf......


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Sturgeon, has talked a lot but in reality she has told us nothing that any reasonably intelligent person would be thinking themselves.
The little dig  about treating us like grown ups, are they the same grownups who defeated her independence referendum?
Make no mistake Sturgeon sees the present situation as a means to try and come across as some wonderful leader, always trying to get her wee bit in first to wrong foot Westminster
Her ultimate goal will never change, thankfully us grownups know that.
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest, have you read the government paper she advised us all to read.
Have you offered any suggestions as to how lockdown should be phased in.
Schools, shops, leisure [golf courses], open access, regional variations etc etc

I am just about to do that, I appreciate the opportunity that the First Minister has afforded me and my fellow citizens of Scotland and who knows, perhaps one citizen just might come up with some novel idea that no one has even thought about.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Although we should probably be on the other Political Cornona thread - oopsie...

It is very noticable how different the treatment of the Scottish and Welsh First Ministers is - certainly by the BBC. They suck up and give them a platform and move on. The opposite to any of the Cabinet.
		
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Sorry Amanda but that is a load of nonsense.
You should see it through our eyes. 
BBC Scotland is constantly on the case of the Scottish Government with an ESSENPEE BAD twist to virtually every headline.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of interest, have you read the government paper she advised us all to read.
Have you offered any suggestions as to how lockdown should be phased in.
Schools, shops, leisure [golf courses], open access, regional variations etc etc

I am just about to do that, I appreciate the opportunity that the First Minister has afforded me and my fellow citizens of Scotland and who knows, perhaps one citizen just might come up with some novel idea that no one has even thought about.
		
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If there is anything in it that is different to the measures already being taken or proposed in other European countries who are ahead of us on the curve then please post them. From the parts I've read it's a cut and paste job. That in itself is not a criticism, the relaxation steps in other countries are very logical. It makes her statement less revolutionary and back to common sense and stating the obvious though.

The roadmap for us is already out there. Look at Denmark, Germany, Austria and others.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The roadmap for us is already out there. Look at Denmark, Germany, Austria and others.
		
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Their advanced implementation will give us an opportunity to see if it works.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 25, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Sturgeon, has talked a lot but in reality she has told us nothing that any reasonably intelligent person would be thinking themselves.
The little dig  about treating us like grown ups, are they the same grownups who defeated her independence referendum?
*Make no mistake Sturgeon sees the present situation as a means to try and come across as some wonderful leader, always trying to get her wee bit in first to wrong foot Westminster
Her ultimate goal will never change, thankfully us grownups know that.*

Click to expand...

God there is a lot of paranoia about nowadays and judging people by their own standards.  Must be because people have been cooped up for too long. May be she also sees the current situation to do the best she can for the people of Scotland.  And as we've seen from the last few years Westminster are quite capable of wrong footing themselves so don't really need any assistance on that front.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 25, 2020)

Just been advised council are intending to shut Haste Hill golf course... Due to too many reports of folk not just taking a walk for exercise but indulging in picnics, sunbathing and, shock horror, golfing! Not quite sure how they can achieve it with so many points of entry... Wonder whether they intend similar measures for Northwood GC next door...


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of interest, have you read the government paper she advised us all to read.
Have you offered any suggestions as to how lockdown should be phased in.
Schools, shops, leisure [golf courses], open access, regional variations etc etc

I am just about to do that, I appreciate the opportunity that the First Minister has afforded me and my fellow citizens of Scotland and who knows, perhaps one citizen just might come up with some novel idea that no one has even thought about.
		
Click to expand...

I have, no detail, just a confirmation of the Westminsters statement of last week. Let's see your offerings and sage advice with your time line then.  Bugger, he pretends I'm on his ignore list so  there won't  be a response. Shame really,


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2020)

Seemingly 14,000 of Germany's Syrian refugees are qualified doctors, German government now bringing them into their health system.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of interest, have you read the government paper she advised us all to read.
Have you offered any suggestions as to how lockdown should be phased in.
Schools, shops, leisure [golf courses], open access, regional variations etc etc

I am just about to do that, I appreciate the opportunity that the First Minister has afforded me and my fellow citizens of Scotland and who knows, perhaps one citizen just might come up with some novel idea that no one has even thought about.
		
Click to expand...

As I'm not privy to all the information that is being gathered by qualified medical experts and scientists, I'm of the opinion once cases and deaths start to significantly decrease then lockdown can be gradually phased out, and not phased in as you state.
It's not rocket science that pubs, cinemas, mass gathering will be at the end of the queue.
One interesting point the longer it goes on the more unresfull the natives get, as you touched on regional variations that would open up a can of worms amongst other things imagine your 70 and you can't play golf, yet your 69 year-old mate can.
However fellow citizen of Scotland, though I consider myself a citizen of the UK first, it will not be some novel idea that sorts this out, it will be hard medical, scientific, and economic facts that will be the determining factors going forward.
Believe me every option not only in this country but world wide will have been considered.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			God there is a lot of paranoia about nowadays and judging people by their own standards.  Must be because people have been cooped up for too long. May be she also sees the current situation to do the best she can for the people of Scotland.  And as we've seen from the last few years Westminster are quite capable of wrong footing themselves so don't really need any assistance on that front.
		
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Can't agree with you more, I wish she would get on with doing the best she can for the majority of the people of Scotland, rather than pander to the minority separatists.
By the way Hacker, I've not been on this forum long but every post I make that you input to seems to be negative are you one of these people who just takes a dislike to someone, when you don't even know them.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 25, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			You should get a professional fitting 👍





This actually feels better 😂
		
Click to expand...

You'll be getting an infraction for posting off topic comments. 😀


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 25, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			As I'm not privy to all the information that is being gathered by qualified medical experts and scientists, I'm of the opinion once cases and deaths start to significantly decrease then lockdown can be gradually phased out, and not phased in as you state.
It's not rocket science that pubs, cinemas, mass gathering will be at the end of the queue.
One interesting point the longer it goes on the more unresfull the natives get, as you touched on regional variations that would open up a can of worms amongst other things imagine your 70 and you can't play golf, yet your 69 year-old mate can.
However fellow citizen of Scotland, though I consider myself a citizen of the UK first, it will not be some novel idea that sorts this out, it will be hard medical, scientific, and economic facts that will be the determining factors going forward.
Believe me every option not only in this country but world wide will have been considered.
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure 70yr olds will be banned or stopped from resuming golf.
As far as I am aware it’s just advisory and people will be allowed to make their own mind up given the risks involved.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

Hey...there is a separate thread for political stuff...or does it only apply to (paranoid) little me 😍


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## MegaSteve (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hey...there is a separate thread for political stuff...or does it only apply to (paranoid) little me 😍
		
Click to expand...

Think if you're posting in support of the government it's ok 👌here... If not PUASU... 😕✌


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2020)

Did the bar open early.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Did the bar open early.
		
Click to expand...

It did in our house. A lovely, demi sec white Rioja.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I am not sure 70yr olds will be banned or stopped from resuming golf.
As far as I am aware it’s just advisory and people will be allowed to make their own mind up given the risks involved.
		
Click to expand...

Not saying it will either but it's not beyond the realms of possibility the powers that be say a certain age must self isolate for longer.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



			What do you mean "shut"?
		
Click to expand...


I am taking it to mean closing/fencing off means of entry... 
Can't see how that can be achieved easily myself...
Or, let loose a gang of heavies to lay down the law ...


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hey...there is a separate thread for political stuff...or does it only apply to (paranoid) little me 😍
		
Click to expand...

Ok I'll take the wrap, it seems I'm paranoid as well☹️


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			Not saying it will either but it's not beyond the realms of possibility the powers that be say a certain age must self isolate for longer.
		
Click to expand...

There might be age discrimination issues there. I can see it being "strongly advised," and "in your best interests," but I can't see there being a law that says all 70 year old and/or all in the "at risk group" or forced to stay in.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sorry Amanda but that is a load of nonsense.
You should see it through our eyes.
BBC Scotland is constantly on the case of the Scottish Government with an ESSENPEE BAD twist to virtually every headline.
		
Click to expand...

GASP

Grip
Alignment
Stance
Posture



PS I don't watch BBC Scotland.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Fencing it off would be a huge job wouldn't it?
No way they could do it next door with the public footpath going through the middle of it.   I've been walking round next door daily, caught one muppet hitting balls last night and stopped him, everyone else is just bimbling around.
A couple of kids left their little bikes on a green today, I started to wheel them off to the side and heard the mum shouting from 100 yards away, she thought I was nicking them 😀.
By the time they got there I just smiled and said the cut out bits were special areas, if they can stay on the longer grass it would be appreciated, all very friendly.
Haven't seen any other issues.
		
Click to expand...


Haven't been over that way for a few days as we've taken to heading towards Bayhurst Woods... Earlier in the week there were several groups picnicing/sunbathing and could see the occassional glint of a flashing shaft from a swinging club... I suspect the lines of contact to the local councillors have been busy!


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Could the govt make it one of the conditions of being allowed to operate?
		
Click to expand...

I genuinely don't know. If they did I could see it being legally challenged.


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There might be age discrimination issues there. I can see it being "strongly advised," and "in your best interests," but I can't see there being a law that says all 70 year old and/or all in the "at risk group" or forced to stay in.
		
Click to expand...

When I made the analogy, it was more to point out how different rules for different areas of the country could cause a lot of unrest.
Myself turning 70 next week with two high risk people in the house common sense tells me I'll be treading warily for months to come.
Your point is a valid one.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

Andalucia hospitalisations are down 70%, and ICU intake is down 50% from the peak of the crisis. Daily deaths are below 400, again. A glimmer of hope...


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Andalucia hospitalisations are down 70%, and ICU intake is down 50% from the peak of the crisis. Daily deaths are below 400, again. A glimmer of hope...
		
Click to expand...

Hope the trend continues.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

ferenezejohn said:



			When I made the analogy, it was more to point out how different rules for different areas of the country could cause a lot of unrest.
Myself turning 70 next week with two high risk people in the house common sense tells me I'll be treading warily for months to come.
Your point is a valid one.
		
Click to expand...

As of tomorrow, Costa Blanca and the western end of Costa del Sol are opening their beaches to children accompanied by adults.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 25, 2020)

Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little


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## Backache (Apr 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.
		
Click to expand...

Very best wishes for a speedy recovery whatever it may be.


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## bluewolf (Apr 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little
		
Click to expand...

Hope you’re feeling better soon Martin 👍


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## Stuart_C (Apr 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little
		
Click to expand...

Not good news H, get well soon fella.

Did they do your blood tests aswell as the covid19 test?


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## MegaSteve (Apr 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little
		
Click to expand...

Stay safe H 👍...


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 25, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Not good news H, get well soon fella.

Did they do your blood tests aswell as the covid19 test?
		
Click to expand...

Do my own bloods regularly as I'm type 2


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little
		
Click to expand...

And breath mate, staying calm and positive is essential as you would know as is having a chat with someone.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little
		
Click to expand...

Fingers crossed you're OK Homer.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And breath mate, staying calm and positive is essential as you would know as is having a chat with someone.
		
Click to expand...

Hope you soon recover Martin. 
We need you! 👍


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## Golfmmad (Apr 25, 2020)

Golfmmad said:



			Hope you soon recover Martin. 
We need you! 👍
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, meant to reply to Martins post.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 25, 2020)

Wish you a speedy recovery Martin. Stay safe (and calm).


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## Slab (Apr 26, 2020)

There's a real feeling that the current end date for our curfew (4th may) will actually see it being lifted and a return to work with restrictions

No deaths in the last two weeks (although unfortunately one person is reported to be in a bad way) and the total count of 'live' cases is down to just 24 as folks recover 
I really hope they're isn't any notable count of unknown cases

It's reported that high temp, high humidity and high UV are killing it off on hard surfaces in short order and we've had plenty of each in the last few weeks

I think they are doing a good job on the contact tracing for the couple of new cases in the last week too, fingers crossed we might get close to eradicating it and with borders currently closed we can control any new cases if these quick tests prove effective when airport reopens


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2020)

Figures for Spain for yesterday just released.

New cases down to 1,729

Deaths down to 288

I accept that these are weekend figures, and we having been seeing a spike on Monday as the some of the (true) weekend numbers come in, but it is the first time the deaths number has been below 300. HOWEVER, we must never lose sight of our humanity and accept that there is another 288 families in terrible pain today.

Stay safe folks.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 26, 2020)

I've only watched a part of this so far but it puts a different view on things. Make up your own minds about what they are saying.


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## fundy (Apr 26, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've only watched a part of this so far but it puts a different view on things. Make up your own minds about what they are saying.







Click to expand...


only watched the first 10 mins, hes clearly a doctor not a statistician!


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## AmandaJR (Apr 26, 2020)

Where's Martyn? You ok??


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 26, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like food poisoning to me.


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## Old Skier (Apr 26, 2020)

Is it Friday


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## IainP (Apr 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			As of tomorrow, Costa Blanca and the western end of Costa del Sol are opening their beaches to children accompanied by adults.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully no reports of "borrowing children" to allow a trip to the beach


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is it Friday
		
Click to expand...

I can’t tell what day it is lately.


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## Captainron (Apr 26, 2020)

How long does a Corona virus test take to come back?


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## hovis (Apr 26, 2020)

Captainron said:



			How long does a Corona virus test take to come back?
		
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my boss was told 2 to 3 days


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 26, 2020)

Captainron said:



			How long does a Corona virus test take to come back?
		
Click to expand...

Believe the aim is to have it back within 48 hours


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## gregbwfc (Apr 26, 2020)

Captainron said:



			How long does a Corona virus test take to come back?
		
Click to expand...

Brother got his back in 48 hours


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## AmandaJR (Apr 26, 2020)

You lot! My mind had gone to all the places mentioned so I didn't respond last night with a "get well" etc. Then I felt guilty and decided I'd be the first to bite - the boy who cried wolf and all that (no offence @Wolf).


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## Italian outcast (Apr 26, 2020)

It's a tough crowd tonight !


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## Stuart_C (Apr 26, 2020)

Captainron said:



			How long does a Corona virus test take to come back?
		
Click to expand...

Within 48hrs but a few people I know,my wife included, it was next day.


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## chrisd (Apr 26, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			It's a tough crowd tonight ! 

Click to expand...

Or maybe just a long suffering one 😠


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 26, 2020)

Not been following the thread but saw this.  I played with Homer at a meet once and whilst you can't give a definitive verdict on someone after one round, he seemed OK to me.  So I'd suggest if you get so angry about someone in the NHS now to the extent you are monitoring his posts and then post this referring to something that happened nearly a decade ago then you have a look at yourself.  And possibly put him on ignore if he upsets you so much. As you say it is embarrassing, but not for the reason you stated. If you think Homer is the worst advertisement for their brand on this forum then you are not looking very hard on what is posted.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

Whatever is wrong I hope hes OK


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## richart (Apr 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			Rich knew that just didnt want to admit to knowing Judge Judy 

Click to expand...

Hey, I nearly choked on my spag bol.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 26, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			But now we've got VAR surely the correct decision is being made every time. 😃
		
Click to expand...

Nope ... it’s quite biased on occasion and we rarely hear the phrase “give it a rest”


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## harpo_72 (Apr 26, 2020)

richart said:



			Hey, I nearly choked on my spag bol.

Click to expand...

So how well do you know judge Judy ?


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 26, 2020)

Right you lot can stop right there

I will not tolerate any individual member being singled out for abuse, it is simply not on. 

Any further links to historical forum events regarding HJS will result in an immediate ban.

Martin may not be everybody’s cup of tea, but he deserves better than this

Take a long look at yourselves


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 27, 2020)

Thread reopened 
Please post responsibly and be nice 👍


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## PieMan (Apr 27, 2020)

Looks like there's going to be a mobile/drive through testing centre opening up at the Metropolitan Sports Ground in Bushey about 2 minutes drive from me, which is reassuring to some degree but also indicates (to me) that we've got some way to go yet before we're on top of this virus.

Will be interesting to see the full list of mobile sites when they're all up-and-running and how easily accessible they are for key/essential workers. The Bushey site is about 10 minutes from Watford General Hospital.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 27, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Looks like there's going to be a mobile/drive through testing centre opening up at the Metropolitan Sports Ground in Bushey about 2 minutes drive from me, which is reassuring to some degree but also indicates (to me) that we've got some way to go yet before we're on top of this virus.

Will be interesting to see the full list of mobile sites when they're all up-and-running and how easily accessible they are for key/essential workers. The Bushey site is about 10 minutes from Watford General Hospital.
		
Click to expand...

Nice one, do you know where I can find an online list of test centres (if such a thing exists) as my other half is a key worker and she is keen to get tested.


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## Old Skier (Apr 27, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Looks like there's going to be a mobile/drive through testing centre opening up at the Metropolitan Sports Ground in Bushey about 2 minutes drive from me, which is reassuring to some degree but also indicates (to me) that we've got some way to go yet before we're on top of this virus.

Will be interesting to see the full list of mobile sites when they're all up-and-running and how easily accessible they are for key/essential workers. The Bushey site is about 10 minutes from Watford General Hospital.
		
Click to expand...

Getting silly. One set up in Torbay but being controlled by the council. Not on the central site. The military running it yesterday stood around with little uptake as only council workers knew about it. Have given my MP both barrels about lack of coordination.


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## USER1999 (Apr 27, 2020)

In the papers, there was a key worker from Badingstoke sent for a test at a drive through in Portsmouth. Necessary journey? Or should there be a test centre nearer?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 27, 2020)

Just a silly observation really. I went into a Morrisons garage today to pick up milk for work. I'm about to leave when I see a woman walk through the door. I stand and wait to see where she goes so I can take a route out of the way. The woman has a home made mask on. She stops in the doorways, pulls the mask down, talks to a shop assistant who was packing the shelves nearby, walks away and pulls the mask up . If people are going to wear masks they really need to understand the point of them.


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## harpo_72 (Apr 27, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just a silly observation really. I went into a Morrisons garage today to pick up milk for work. I'm about to leave when I see a woman walk through the door. I stand and wait to see where she goes so I can take a route out of the way. The woman has a home made mask on. She stops in the doorways, pulls the mask down, talks to a shop assistant who was packing the shelves nearby, walks away and pulls the mask up . If people are going to wear masks they really need to understand the point of them.
		
Click to expand...

Hiding their identity?

🤣


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## JamesR (Apr 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			In the papers, there was a key worker from Badingstoke sent for a test at a drive through in Portsmouth. Necessary journey? Or should there be a test centre nearer?
		
Click to expand...

I don’t really know the geography down that neck of the woods. But, surely Ascot would have been closer?


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## pendodave (Apr 27, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Nice one, do you know where I can find an online list of test centres (if such a thing exists) as my other half is a key worker and she is keen to get tested.
		
Click to expand...

Fwiw, if she is poorly, anyone in her household (including you) can get tested as well. That way you can all avoid passing it on to someone else as intra-household transmission is the most common. Apologies if you already knew this.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 27, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			In the papers, there was a key worker from Badingstoke sent for a test at a drive through in Portsmouth. Necessary journey? Or should there be a test centre nearer?
		
Click to expand...

There was an item on the local news last week about a woman in Cumbria who was worried about her autistic teenage son. She was told to go to Gatwick Airport to get him tested!


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## PNWokingham (Apr 27, 2020)

Martin - did you get the results back? Hopefully all OK? 

Also, does anyone know the policy for getting tested? It does cause a sense of paranoia as I was feeling rough a couple of weeks back but probably just a seasonal bug. But does anyone have an idea when non key workers will be able to go to the mobile testing centers?


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## hovis (Apr 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Martin - did you get the results back? Hopefully all OK? 

Also, does anyone know the policy for getting tested? It does cause a sense of paranoia as I was feeling rough a couple of weeks back but probably just a seasonal bug. But does anyone have an idea when non key workers will be able to go to the mobile testing centers?
		
Click to expand...

if it was a couple of weeks back what good will a test do?


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## PNWokingham (Apr 27, 2020)

hovis said:



			if it was a couple of weeks back what good will a test do?
		
Click to expand...

it was just a general question about when it will open up to mass testing - not to do with my cold a couple of weeks ago. I am keen to know if i have had it (my girlfriend and I were both pretty rough for a week or so), as would most people, as this is clearly part of the return to normality when we can start segmenting society into those that have had it - and are likely to have antibodies - and those that have not.


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Martin - did you get the results back? Hopefully all OK? 

Also, does anyone know the policy for getting tested? It does cause a sense of paranoia as I was feeling rough a couple of weeks back but probably just a seasonal bug. But does anyone have an idea when non key workers will be able to go to the mobile testing centers?
		
Click to expand...

You've probably had it, easy to forget in all the media driven panic that vast majority will have what you've had. 3 of 4 in my house have had illness but all different in intensity, duration and symptoms. 4th is either asymptomatic or his Xbox induced isolation has protected him.

Best wishes to Homer too, never met but feel like I have after reading his posts here for about 13 years now....cripes.


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## Crazyface (Apr 27, 2020)

I'm getting interviews at last!!!!!! Landed a job (temp( last week and now have an interview on Wednesday for another job (permanent) !!!!!


----------



## Jacko_G (Apr 27, 2020)

Looks like I missed a lot of "banter" in this thread, can anyone bring me up to date without getting an infraction?

😁


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## Imurg (Apr 27, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			it was just a general question about when it will open up to mass testing - not to do with my cold a couple of weeks ago. I am keen to know if i have had it (my girlfriend and I were both pretty rough for a week or so), as would most people, as this is clearly part of the return to normality when we can start segmenting society into those that have had it - and are likely to have antibodies - and those that have not.
		
Click to expand...

At the moment the evidence as to whether immunity is developed simply by recovery from C19 is sketchy....
There's little evidence to prove that you do develop immunity and the thought, at the moment, is that if you do develop antibodies they may not last more than a year or two.
Some will recover without developing the antibodies in significant quantities to prevent re-infection 
We also need to take into account that just because some may now be immune they are still perfectly able to pass the virus on to those who aren't simply by touching something that has the virus on it and then touching something else etc etc...


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## Imurg (Apr 27, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Looks like I missed a lot of "banter" in this thread, can anyone bring me up to date without getting an infraction?

😁
		
Click to expand...

Probably  not


----------



## DRW (Apr 27, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Looks like I missed a lot of "banter" in this thread, can anyone bring me up to date without getting an infraction?

😁
		
Click to expand...

Your a naughty boy


----------



## Jacko_G (Apr 27, 2020)

DRW said:



			Your a naughty boy 

Click to expand...

Haha it was a genuine question.i gave up on this thread two weeks ago due to utter tripe being posted, now it got all juicy and I missed it!

☹️


----------



## MegaSteve (Apr 27, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Looks like I missed a lot of "banter" in this thread, can anyone bring me up to date without getting an infraction?

😁
		
Click to expand...

The left spouted it's political bias...
Whilst the right remained blinkered...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			The left spouted it's political bias...
Whilst the right remained blinkered...
		
Click to expand...

While the centre sat on the fence.


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## Mudball (Apr 27, 2020)

On company bailouts... interesting.  I wonder what Virgin would think about it. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254658181999058944


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## User62651 (Apr 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			On company bailouts... interesting.  I wonder what Virgin would think about it. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254658181999058944

Click to expand...

Thought France had done or is doing the same, was on news last night. 
Trouble is all the good tax paying employees suffer as well as the tax dodging company if it isn't bailed out and goes belly up. Double edged sword.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			On company bailouts... interesting.  I wonder what Virgin would think about it.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1254658181999058944

Click to expand...

I quite agree with the Danish stance.


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## Mudball (Apr 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Thought France had done or is doing the same, was on news last night.
Trouble is all the good tax paying employees suffer as well as the tax dodging company if it isn't bailed out and goes belly up. Double edged sword.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.. employees will struggle.   I doubt if Tory's will go down this route, this will impact a lot of their donors.  While Rishi is having his moments in the sun, but he too is an ex-investment banker


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

This morning over my cuppa in bed and pondering what we do today in 'the time of corona' we had thoughts back to where we were exactly a year ago - 27th April 2019.  We were in a beautiful little place on the Queensland coast of Australia called 1770, having two days previously finished a three days sailing and snorkeling in the Whitsunday Islands   

And we reflected how a year previous to that - 27th April 2018 - we would never, ever, have imagined that we'd have been in 1770 or the Whitsundays - and having already been travelling for 3months down under.

As we looked at the selfie my wife took of us from the monument to Captain Cook looking out over the sand and azure sea of the estuary - we would never have imagined what we'd be doing exactly one year later. 

Yet here we are.  And as much as I might - I actually would rather not speculate where we'll be on 27th April 2021.


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## Beezerk (Apr 27, 2020)

Here's one for you which a colleague asked during a conference call earlier which no one could answer.

Let's say we go back to work on the 11th May, this would mean we are about two weeks into a furlough payment month and then three weeks of regular pay.
How is the furlough pay calculated as you won't reach the £2,500 threshold in those two weeks?
Is it based on the £2,500 on a day to day basis (£100 a day based on a 5 week month) or is it 80% of your full pay which is more than the furlough pay (about £140 a day)?

Hope that makes a little bit sense.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Here's one for you which a colleague asked during a conference call earlier which no one could answer.

Let's say we go back to work on the 11th May, this would mean we are about two weeks into a furlough payment month and then three weeks of regular pay.
How is the furlough pay calculated as you won't reach the £2,500 threshold in those two weeks?
Is it based on the £2,500 on a day to day basis (£100 a day based on a 5 week month) or is it 80% of your full pay which is more than the furlough pay (about £140 a day)?

Hope that makes a little bit sense.
		
Click to expand...

I thought they were calculating furlough pay based on what people had earned in February and all further payments would be calculated on that same base.


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## Beezerk (Apr 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought they were calculating furlough pay based on what people had earned in February and all further payments would be calculated on that same base.
		
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No idea, but that doesn't really answer my question as to what happens if you earn more more than the furlough payment and go back to work midway through a month.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			No idea, but that doesn't really answer my question as to what happens if you earn more more than the furlough payment and go back to work midway through a month.
		
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Surely they would work out the proportionate amount for the days you were furloughed, what you earn after the date you return is not furlough.


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## Beezerk (Apr 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely they would work out the proportionate amount for the days you were furloughed, what you earn after the date you return is not furlough.
		
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Yes, but what rate is the furlough amount worked out on?

Anyone have a proper answer for this rather than just conjecture?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Yes, but what rate is the furlough amount worked out on?

Anyone have a proper answer for this rather than just conjecture?
		
Click to expand...

As I said proportionate. The monthly rate you have been recieving divided by the number of days in the month and multiplied by the number of days you were entitled.


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## Beezerk (Apr 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			As I said proportionate. The monthly rate you have been recieving divided by the number of days in the month and multiplied by the number of days you were entitled.
		
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*scratches head*
I'm confused by your reply, you seem to be kind of half explaining without a decent description, or I'm just being thick , by "receiving" do you mean furlough pay or regular wage?

Pick an answer below...
So you earn £130,000 p.a. which is nicely rounded up at £2,500 a week.
You furlough for the first week in May then are back to work. Do you...

A) Get the full £2,500 for that first week as it's on the £2,500 threshold, then normal wage (also £2,500 a week). 
B) Get £500 for the first week as it's 5 days work based on a 5 week month, then go back to your normal wage of £2,500 per week.

Answers on a postcard to...


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## Beezerk (Apr 27, 2020)

Traminator said:



			If their 80% takes them over 2500 pm, they're getting less than 80%.  In that scenario they would get 80% of their normal, unfurloughed income from 1st to 11th (if that's under 2500) then go to normal pay.

So answer C) then which I purposely left off 

1 weeks pay at 80% of £2,500 then back to normal wage for the rest.
What we didn't know is if there's a time limit on earning the maximum of £2,500, so you could get to the max withing 2 weeks if you get my drift?
		
Click to expand...


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 27, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			*scratches head*
I'm confused by your reply, you seem to be kind of half explaining without a decent description, or I'm just being thick , by "receiving" do you mean furlough pay or regular wage?

Pick an answer below...
So you earn £130,000 p.a. which is nicely rounded up at £2,500 a week.
You furlough for the first week in May then are back to work. Do you...

A) Get the full £2,500 for that first week as it's on the £2,500 threshold, then normal wage (also £2,500 a week).
B) Get £500 for the first week as it's 5 days work based on a 5 week month, then go back to your normal wage of £2,500 per week.

Answers on a postcard to...
		
Click to expand...

The max payment is £2500 per MONTH

I was paid a bit more than I was expecting this month, bank holidays form part of my holiday entitlement and holidays are paid in full


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The max payment is £2500 per MONTH

I was paid a bit more than I was expecting this month, bank holidays form part of my holiday entitlement and holidays are paid in full 

Click to expand...

Indeed - I was wondering why I only get paid such a paltry sum every month when some are on £10,000 a month


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			*scratches head*
I'm confused by your reply, you seem to be kind of half explaining without a decent description, or I'm just being thick , by "receiving" do you mean furlough pay or regular wage?

Pick an answer below...
So you earn £130,000 p.a. which is nicely rounded up at £2,500 a week.
You furlough for the first week in May then are back to work. Do you...

A) Get the full £2,500 for that first week as it's on the £2,500 threshold, then normal wage (also £2,500 a week).
B) Get £500 for the first week as it's 5 days work based on a 5 week month, then go back to your normal wage of £2,500 per week.

Answers on a postcard to...
		
Click to expand...

The monthly rate you are recieving through furlough is a maximum £2500 , the actual amount can be anything up to this.
If in a final month you restart work partway through a month your furlough pay will be a proportion of the monthly furlough upto the day you restart.  I dont see the problem.


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## Beezerk (Apr 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The monthly rate you are recieving through furlough is a maximum £2500 , the actual amount can be anything up to this.
If in a final month you restart work partway through a month your furlough pay will be a proportion of the monthly furlough upto the day you restart.  I dont see the problem.
		
Click to expand...

I'd say that's different and much more vague to some other replies.
From my previous post is the answer a, b or c?


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## larmen (Apr 27, 2020)

Isn’t  furlough at least 3 weeks?

Also, while the government compensated to 80% or £2500 (whatever is less) your employer can always bump it up to 100% from their own kitty.
We get paid the 2.5, but we get bumped up to at least 60% if 2.5 is below that.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'd say that's different and much more vague to some other replies.
From my previous post is the answer a, b or c?
		
Click to expand...

 none of them as its £2500 a month.  I'm ducking out now.


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## Beezerk (Apr 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			none of them as its £2500 a month.  I'm ducking out now.
		
Click to expand...

🙈


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## Stuart_C (Apr 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Turns out my "wobble" on Thursday may be more. Got sent home. Hit me like a freight train when I got in. Sick, upset stomach, and then fought a fever for next 24 hours. Managed to get a test, ironically at Ascot racecourse. Just had a phone call and "inconclusive" so got to go and be retested tomorrow. Been taking paracetamol regularly and fever has reduced but not got dry cough and test tight when I do but hoping that's the strain of throwing up. Blood sugars through the roof too.

Part of me naturally hopes this isn't the virus but it then begs the question what would come on so quickly. One of the main symptoms seems to be sudden onset. Hopefully the test tomorrow will confirm one way or another Been sleeping on and off since Thursday afternoon but thinking may be dehydrated which accounts for the spike in bloods. Any which way not feeling tickety boo but managed to get up and eat a little
		
Click to expand...

Any update on your 2nd test Homer?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 27, 2020)

Hospital deaths only, but let’s hope the trend continues downwards.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I'd say that's different and much more vague to some other replies.
From my previous post is the answer a, b or c?
		
Click to expand...

No. It's what I explained. I dont know how to explain it any easier but as it doesnt seem to satisfy then I'll let you look for another source.


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## Mudball (Apr 28, 2020)

Any news on @HomerJSimpson ??

Hit a low last evening.  Was banking on closing a sale last night.. would keep some of the guys busy next month.  Apparently someone somewhere decided to not go ahead due to cv19.. pesky virus. 

Sat at my desk and looked out of the window for about an hour. At some point my mind must be blank. The only good thing i did was not to ‘have a drink’ .. that is a dangerous spiral. WFH seems to have increased alcohol intake - happy hours all day


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## chellie (Apr 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Any news on @HomerJSimpson ??

Hit a low last evening.  Was banking on closing a sale last night.. would keep some of the guys busy next month.  Apparently someone somewhere decided to not go ahead due to cv19.. pesky virus.

Sat at my desk and looked out of the window for about an hour. At some point my mind must be blank. The only good thing i did was not to ‘have a drink’ .. that is a dangerous spiral. WFH seems to have increased alcohol intake - happy hours all day
		
Click to expand...

He was on here last night but he's not posted.


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## Mudball (Apr 28, 2020)

chellie said:



			He was on here last night but he's not posted.
		
Click to expand...

ok... good to know he is lurking around.   hopefully decided to polish his shoes - that will keep him busy for a few days.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 28, 2020)

What's people's general feeling about a tracking app like the one brought in in Australia?


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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What's people's general feeling about a tracking app like the one brought in in Australia?
		
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Not bothered either way. My phone has been switched on 3 times in the last 4 months. When I've gone out shopping during lockdown. When I worked my phone almost ran my day. I'm retired and don't need it.


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## Imurg (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What's people's general feeling about a tracking app like the one brought in in Australia?
		
Click to expand...

If they're going to use it to track my movements other than to do with C19 theyre going to be very disappointed...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What's people's general feeling about a tracking app like the one brought in in Australia?
		
Click to expand...

Along with suitable testing it's a great idea.


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## hovis (Apr 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			If they're going to use it to track my movements other than to do with C19 theyre going to be very disappointed...
		
Click to expand...

seriously though. i wouldn't care less if they did use it for other purposes.  I'm not doing any harm so they can track me all they want.  until I commit a crime then all bets are off


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What's people's general feeling about a tracking app like the one brought in in Australia?
		
Click to expand...

The sooner the better please. It was a big part of the relaxation of movement in China. My BiL used it out there and it worked well, allowed him to get out and about again. Anything that can get us back and moving again.


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## bluewolf (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What's people's general feeling about a tracking app like the one brought in in Australia?
		
Click to expand...

No issue with it, but the data has to be legally protected and only accessible to the people who actually need it to track the virus.


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## USER1999 (Apr 28, 2020)

I don't trust them not to sell my data. They probably do already, and I have no idea who would want it. For me, it's a no.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 28, 2020)

Incidentally, another big part of the relaxation of movement in China was that pretty much every shop you entered had a temperature checking machine that you had to pass through in order to enter. I don't know if they were airport style machines to walk through or a person stood with a temp gauge on the forehead. Anyway, if you showed up as hot you didn't get in, if you were fine you got in. These were in all shops, as soon as you showed red you knew you had to isolate. I've not heard that being mentioned here but is that another thing worth looking at?


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## USER1999 (Apr 28, 2020)

they normally have someone with a small hand held IR scanner. I have one at work, but can't find it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 28, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I don't trust them not to sell my data. They probably do already, and I have no idea who would want it. For me, it's a no.
		
Click to expand...

They are being brought in across countries, the Australian one went live today I believe. If they were the difference between you being able to move more freely and you being housebound, watching the rest of us go to golf, shops, pubs etc, would you really not use it?

I get your point but at the moment I care more about moving around more freely. The beggars are probably tracking us all anyway in one form or another via the apps we already have.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Incidentally, another big part of the relaxation of movement in China was that pretty much every shop you entered had a temperature checking machine that you had to pass through in order to enter. I don't know if they were airport style machines to walk through or a person stood with a temp gauge on the forehead. Anyway, if you showed up as hot you didn't get in, if you were fine you got in. These were in all shops, as soon as you showed red you knew you had to isolate. I've not heard that being mentioned here but is that another thing worth looking at?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure if it was at the daily briefing or another programme where a scientist was explaining that the hand held devices can be inaccurate, +/- 2 degrees, so aren't much use for this situation.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			No issue with it, but the data has to be legally protected and only accessible to the people who actually need it to track the virus.
		
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I dont think they would tell your wife 😄


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			they normally have someone with a small hand held IR scanner. I have one at work, but can't find it.
		
Click to expand...

Might be in your camouflaged trousers if you can find them.


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## patricks148 (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			What's people's general feeling about a tracking app like the one brought in in Australia?
		
Click to expand...

Fine as long as it can't track you on golf courses when you should be working


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 28, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Fine as long as it can't track you on golf courses when you should be working

Click to expand...

Have you been pulling doughnuts on your quad bike?🤣


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## bluewolf (Apr 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont think they would tell your wife 😄
		
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But could I absolutely trust them not to? 😉


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

I'm on the Covid -19 app which isn't a tracker as such apart from post code info, not sure how much use it is 

https://covid.joinzoe.com/data


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## upsidedown (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I'm on the Covid -19 app which isn't a tracker as such apart from post code info, not sure how much use it is 

https://covid.joinzoe.com/data

Click to expand...

Went to download it and says not available in my country 🤔


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Went to download it and says not available in my country 🤔
		
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Strange chucked it on HIDs with no problem


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 28, 2020)

Scottish Government recommend wearing face masks on public transport and in food shops.
Not mandatory
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-nicola-sturgeon-advises-scots-to-wear-face-coverings-in-public-places-to-prevent-covid-19-spread/ar-BB13jkKm?ocid=spartandhp


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Government recommend wearing face masks on public transport and in food shops.
Not mandatory
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-nicola-sturgeon-advises-scots-to-wear-face-coverings-in-public-places-to-prevent-covid-19-spread/ar-BB13jkKm?ocid=spartandhp

Click to expand...

My golf snood could come in handy


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 28, 2020)

Have a go at the coronavirus quiz
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/28/quiz-how-much-do-you-know-about-the-coronavirus
12/14 for me. The size and what 19 stood for threw me


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My golf snood could come in handy
		
Click to expand...

Good idea, got one for my birthday last month and haven't cracked it open yet.


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## chellie (Apr 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My golf snood could come in handy
		
Click to expand...

Was an old bloke in a balaclava in the shop the other day. All he did was cough


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## upsidedown (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Strange chucked it on HIDs with no problem
		
Click to expand...

Lol same here, think phone thinks it's in another country tried resetting but still no luck , technology 😅


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## Backache (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I'm on the Covid -19 app which isn't a tracker as such apart from post code info, not sure how much use it is

https://covid.joinzoe.com/data

Click to expand...

They are trying to research the disease, find out about symptoms  and the extent of it's spread rather than trying to contact trace which would be the point of an app.
I fill in my info daily on it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Good idea, got one for my birthday last month and haven't cracked it open yet.
		
Click to expand...

Was just thinking of things I could use without having to buy one (as things are hard to get hold ATM) I did have another snood but think I threw it.

I have old leather gloves in the car to get into the work car park which I Dettol when I get home

I gave the wife a pair of throw out gloves and a mask I had left over from painting. Put her mind at rest when she goes hospital for her visits .. hasn't worn it yet but if she gets uncomfortable she has the option lol


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## patricks148 (Apr 28, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Have you been pulling doughnuts on your quad bike?🤣
		
Click to expand...

no but took my trials bike for a run around Surrey with 3 mates


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Incidentally, another big part of the relaxation of movement in China was that pretty much every shop you entered had a temperature checking machine that you had to pass through in order to enter. I don't know if they were airport style machines to walk through or a person stood with a temp gauge on the forehead. Anyway, if you showed up as hot you didn't get in, if you were fine you got in. These were in all shops, as soon as you showed red you knew you had to isolate. I've not heard that being mentioned here but is that another thing worth looking at?
		
Click to expand...

There was a documentary on the BBC six weeks ago (March 14th) that showed the extreme measures the Chinese were going to in Wuhan to contain the spread of the virus.  What we have done in the UK is pretty easy-oasy by comparison.


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## hovis (Apr 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There was a documentary on the BBC six weeks ago (March 14th) that showed the extreme measures the Chinese were going to in Wuhan to contain the spread of the virus.  What we have done in the UK is pretty easy-oasy by comparison.
		
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you mean a camera crew followed around by government officials  telling them what they can and can't film?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Was just thinking of things I could use without having to buy one (as things are hard to get hold ATM) I did have another snood but think I threw it.

I have old leather gloves in the car to get into the work car park which I Dettol when I get home

I gave the wife a pair of throw out gloves and a mask I had left over from painting. Put her mind at rest when she goes hospital for her visits .. hasn't worn it yet but if she gets uncomfortable she has the option lol
		
Click to expand...

There's a video on you tube making one from a sock...let me see if I can find it.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 28, 2020)




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## Hobbit (Apr 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:









Click to expand...

Use clean ones...


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## Fish (Apr 28, 2020)

Is being tracked a posh way of being tagged, asking for a friend 🤔


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## Fish (Apr 28, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Haha it was a genuine question.i gave up on this thread two weeks ago due to utter tripe being posted, now it got all juicy and I missed it!

☹️
		
Click to expand...

I missed it also, but I gather we were on the verge of #HomerGatelll 😜


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## Jacko_G (Apr 28, 2020)

Fish said:



			I missed it also, but I gather we were on the verge of #HomerGatelll 😜
		
Click to expand...

What version are we at now? 19? 20?

That guy must have an armoured exterior, should call him the armadillo!!!!


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

Wonder how many will worry about the security issues on a possible life saving solution but are willingly going to have the new score entry app running when they play golf, have no security on the phones or their social media and regularly have google running in the background on their smart phones.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Wonder how many will worry about the security issues on a possible life saving solution but are willingly going to have the new score entry app running when they play golf, have no security on the phones or their social media and regularly have google running in the background on their smart phones.
		
Click to expand...

It's like when people avoid things like Alexa devices or smart phones because the gov can listen in on you

Only should worry you if you are doing something illegal .. feel free to listen in here.. would just hear random stuff or my daughter announce she needs a poo 

People worry far far too much about things they have zero control over


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's like when people avoid things like Alexa devices or smart phones because the gov can listen in on you

Only should worry you if you are doing something illegal .. feel free to listen in here.. would just hear random stuff or my daughter announce she needs a poo

People worry far far too much about things they have zero control over
		
Click to expand...

To be honest, if you have a smartphone unprotected and your able to hook up to the ether it's not the government you need to worry about. Most of the people I know who still work stick to the old flip phones which are just phones.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Ha ha that made me laugh 😂

In reality that sums it up for the vast majority of us.
		
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Today they would have heard me tell my wife to fornicate off (in a jokey way) in front of little one as I didn't want to swear

Queue laughing for 10 mins as she didn't know what it meant and even asked Alexa


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## huds1475 (Apr 28, 2020)

From some reading I understand the tracking app there's a discreet reference in the code you download, say 1234567. You are identified as 1234567.

It then uses location tech to tell if you are close to anyone with C19.

So if you, 1234567, go stand next to 7654321 who's infected, you get an alert saying something like "You may have been in contact with someone who has had C19", not "Rodney from Farnborough stood next to you and he's infected".

The discreet reference does not have any personal data attached to it, unless you count location.

There's less privacy risk with this than any of you with a smartphone already carry.

No doubt the tin hat brigade will still bitch and moan about it though. Both Apple & Google are understood to be building this into their OS's too. Admirable social responsibility that will no doubt be spun as another tech conspiracy

Off now to my Flat Earth Society zoom meeting


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			From some reading I understand the tracking app there's a discreet reference in the code you download, say 1234567. You are identified as 1234567.

It then uses location tech to tell if you are close to anyone with C19.

So if you, 1234567, go stand next to 7654321 who's infected, you get an alert saying something like "You may have been in contact with someone who has had C19", not "Rodney from Farnborough stood next to you and he's infected".

The discreet reference does not have any personal data attached to it, unless you count location.

There's less privacy risk with this than any of you with a smartphone already carry.

No doubt the tin hat brigade will still bitch and moan about it though. Both Apple & Google are understood to be building this into their OS's too. Admirable social responsibility that will no doubt be spun as another tech conspiracy

Off now to my Flat Earth Society zoom meeting 

Click to expand...

Heard of a flat earthers "theory" once that the earth has to be flat that if they get on a plane and fly "around" the world laying a sprite level on the floor it remains level 

Just wow


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## huds1475 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Heard of a flat earthers "theory" once that the earth has to be flat that if they get on a plane and fly "around" the world laying a sprite level on the floor it remains level

Just wow
		
Click to expand...

I know, it's a revelation once it hits you


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I know, it's a revelation once it hits you
		
Click to expand...

Plus all those Australians are paid actors and it doesn't really exist

I'm surprised trump isn't a flat earther


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## huds1475 (Apr 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Plus all those Australians are paid actors and it doesn't really exist

I'm surprised trump isn't a flat earther
		
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I love the Australians one. If you give me 5 minutes I have a beauty...


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			I love the Australians one. If you give me 5 minutes I have a beauty...
		
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Please do, these always do interest me how people can believe some things despite over whelming facts showing otherwise


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## huds1475 (Apr 28, 2020)

If you want to get involved, who wouldn't, you can join here...

https://birdsarentreal.com/pages/who-are-we

They also have Merch

https://birdsarentreal.com/collections/all

Personal fave is the "If it flies, it spies" test shirt.


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## Mudball (Apr 28, 2020)

FWIW.. One reason being touted by sources as the reason for higher ‘Covid related death’ in the US.. Capitalism to be blamed?  If this made it Fox News then Trump will start (re)spinning this as a Democrat ploy 


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ore-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/


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## Jacko_G (Apr 28, 2020)

Great bit of kit. Could also adapt it to track criminals at all times plus slow players on the golf course.

Win win.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 28, 2020)

Is anyone on here using the Covid19 reporting app? Only 2.6m people have downloaded it.


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## IainP (Apr 28, 2020)

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52441428


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2020)

IainP said:



https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52441428

Click to expand...

Different app


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Is anyone on here using the Covid19 reporting app? Only 2.6m people have downloaded it.
		
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I do.


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Is anyone on here using the Covid19 reporting app? Only 2.6m people have downloaded it.
		
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I’m not.


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## Jacko_G (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I do.
		
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It's not a marriage...


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## 2blue (Apr 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Is anyone on here using the Covid19 reporting app? Only 2.6m people have downloaded it.
		
Click to expand...

I do.


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## 2blue (Apr 28, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			It's not a marriage...
		
Click to expand...




2blue said:



			I do. 

Click to expand...

It can be now Honey XXX


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I do.
		
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Jacko_G said:



			It's not a marriage...
		
Click to expand...




2blue said:



			I do. 

Click to expand...

I now pronounce you man and wife.


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## larmen (Apr 29, 2020)

Here is a funny one from Germany. In Bremen you can now play golf again. In Lower Saxony you can’t yet. One golf course in Bremen (I think they have 2 or 3) has the 1st 9 holes across the border in Lower Saxony, so for the time being you can only play the holes 10 to 18 as well as visit the practice areas. Holes 1 to 9 are taped off.


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## CliveW (Apr 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Is anyone on here using the Covid19 reporting app? Only 2.6m people have downloaded it.
		
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I've never heard of it.


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## Fish (Apr 29, 2020)

So which is the correct app, as always, there’s a few out there, but surely something so important there should only be one official app.


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## drdel (Apr 29, 2020)

German rate increases, 1000+ per day.


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## hovis (Apr 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			German rate increases, 1000+ per day.
		
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that's not an additional 1000 a day though.   according to sky news its 120 extra overnight


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

Last night it was announced that there would be a 4 phase un-lockdown with trigger points every 2 weeks. The phase start points would be different in each region, depending on level of Covid experienced in each region. Each phase could be extended beyond its nominal 2 week period, or even stepped back to the previous phase dependent on outcomes in each phase.

Various activities will also have a number of restrictions, each being removed at various phases. Bars and restaurants can open at the end of the month, but only their outside terraces and only to 50%. Interiors of those establishments can open 2 weeks later but only to 50%.

Non-contact sports, e.g. cycling, golf can open on the 11th but only to a max of 50% capacity. Football can open 2 weeks later but behind closed door. Spectators allowed 2 weeks later but only to a max of 500 spectators.

Hotels and holiday accommodation open up in June but not the communal areas in those establishments, e.g. pools/restaurants.

There's pages of it with tons more detail but no doubt you get the gist.


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## drdel (Apr 29, 2020)

hovis said:



			that's not an additional 1000 a day though.   according to sky news its 120 extra overnight
		
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You misread, 1000+ was meant as a bit over 1000 not an additional


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## drdel (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Last night it was announced that there would be a 4 phase un-lockdown with trigger points every 2 weeks. The phase start points would be different in each region, depending on level of Covid experienced in each region. Each phase could be extended beyond its nominal 2 week period, or even stepped back to the previous phase dependent on outcomes in each phase.

Various activities will also have a number of restrictions, each being removed at various phases. Bars and restaurants can open at the end of the month, but only their outside terraces and only to 50%. Interiors of those establishments can open 2 weeks later but only to 50%.

Non-contact sports, e.g. cycling, golf can open on the 11th but only to a max of 50% capacity. Football can open 2 weeks later but behind closed door. Spectators allowed 2 weeks later but only to a max of 500 spectators.

Hotels and holiday accommodation open up in June but not the communal areas in those establishments, e.g. pools/restaurants.

There's pages of it with tons more detail but no doubt you get the gist.
		
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I wonder if 2 weeks is long enough to detect a change in infections.


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## hovis (Apr 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			You misread, 1000+ was meant as a bit over 1000 not an additional
		
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I know.  your post didn't read too well.


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## Fish (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Last night it was announced that there would be a 4 phase un-lockdown with trigger points every 2 weeks. The phase start points would be different in each region, depending on level of Covid experienced in each region. Each phase could be extended beyond its nominal 2 week period, or even stepped back to the previous phase dependent on outcomes in each phase.

Various activities will also have a number of restrictions, each being removed at various phases. Bars and restaurants can open at the end of the month, but only their outside terraces and only to 50%. Interiors of those establishments can open 2 weeks later but only to 50%.

Non-contact sports, e.g. cycling, golf can open on the 11th but only to a max of 50% capacity. Football can open 2 weeks later but behind closed door. Spectators allowed 2 weeks later but only to a max of 500 spectators.

Hotels and holiday accommodation open up in June but not the communal areas in those establishments, e.g. pools/restaurants.

There's pages of it with tons more detail but no doubt you get the gist.
		
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A couple of mates who have bars over there are telling me the Spanish government don’t want English or German tourists for months yet as they’re critical of our lack of lockdown.


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## Backache (Apr 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			So which is the correct app, as always, there’s a few out there, but surely something so important there should only be one official app.
		
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The symptom reporting ap is an app that is basically there for research and the more people who use it the better the research. It gives a pretty good indication of the spread of covid in the UK and has already produced some decent results. If you down load it and use it . It does not benefit you other than the knowledge potentially benefitting society. It is not a government app.

The NHS app is not yet out but will be designed to allow contact tracing so you can self isolate and get tested if you have had contact with someone with covid. The  more people who download it the better it should work.

There is no reason not to use both and it would be helpful to use both however if you are only to use one the NHS app is the one to use.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			So which is the correct app, as always, there’s a few out there, but surely something so important there should only be one official app.
		
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The one in post 6637 is the Australian app. At the moment it works only in Aussie, I believe. It is linked to their Covid monitoring setup.
You have a 'handle' ID, and your phone uses Bluetooth. If you get near to someone using the same app then a note is made in the app of those people.
Their phone handle, that is.
So, in a week you may have been close to say 100 people. If all had the app on their phone, then if you test positive for Covid, you can *choose* to upload the app to the covid monitors which will identify all those phones you were in the vicinity of. They then know to be able to advise those persons that they have been close to covid and may have been infected.
Only the Covid setup personnel know the people's identities.


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## larmen (Apr 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			German rate increases, 1000+ per day.
		
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what I read is that the infection rate was at 0.7 in mid April but is now up to 0.9 again. Might be an Easter jump, but time will tell if it stays there. Especially now with partial reopening.


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## Billysboots (Apr 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			A couple of mates who have bars over there are telling me the Spanish government don’t want English or German tourists for months yet as they’re critical of our lack of lockdown.
		
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I’d also read that on one of the news sites - either BBC or Sky. 

The Spanish islands will, apparently, delay allowing British visitors beyond their planned re-opening to tourism, which I believe is currently due in August. I assume the same applies to the mainland.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			A couple of mates who have bars over there are telling me the Spanish government don’t want English or German tourists for months yet as they’re critical of our lack of lockdown.
		
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Billysboots said:



			I’d also read that on one of the news sites - either BBC or Sky.

The Spanish islands will, apparently, delay allowing British visitors beyond their planned re-opening to tourism, which I believe is currently due in August. I assume the same applies to the mainland.
		
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There was talk of it a week or so back but nothing concrete from official sources yet.


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## Billysboots (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There was talk of it a week or so back but nothing concrete from official sources yet.
		
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I’m waiting with anticipation - we have three holidays planned this year - short breaks in mainland Spain and a family holiday in Majorca. I’m not confident at all that any of them are going to happen.

There are more important things than holidays, though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2020)

Heard a Greek minister (Culture and Tourism?) this morning on Today tell us that Greece is planning to be open for holiday business this year.  Didn't say when.  Hmmm.  We are supposed to be going to Greece 2nd week in June.  

To be honest we are pretty uncertain about going - even if our BA flight is not cancelled.  And when we got back would we have to go into two weeks quarantine?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 29, 2020)

I am not going anywhere until next April USA and that’s only if I feel safe.
just have to wait and see.
Might go golfing in Scotland if it’s not to late in the year.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

How terribly, terribly sad! 

I've just seen a couple of FB posts my sister has shared, put out by the hospital in Middlesbrough and by Cleveland Police. Both looking for the relatives of people who have died of this...…………… disease. 

Stay safe folks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2020)

Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck Hugh, and all the best for Mrs Hogan


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Good luck Hugh, and all the best for Mrs Hogan
		
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It's the sitting in the car bit...


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## chrisd (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

Best wishes to her 👍👍


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's the sitting in the car bit...

Click to expand...

I can understand, it makes you feel so bloody useless at a time when you just want to be supportive of your wife.

Really hope that the news will be good for her and yourself.


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

All the best to you & the mrs 🤞🏻


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## drdel (Apr 29, 2020)

hovis said:



			I know.  your post didn't read too well.
		
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You understood yet bothered to reply !


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck 🤞


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## williamalex1 (Apr 29, 2020)

Fingers crossed Hugh , I'll say a wee prayer for her .


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## richart (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

 Hope all goes well Hugh.


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## fundy (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

best wishes and fingers xxx'ed Hugh


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## Wolf (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

Hope it all goes well SILH. ❤️


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## SaintHacker (Apr 29, 2020)

All the best for good news SILH


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## SocketRocket (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
Click to expand...

Hoping for good news Hogie, keeping fingers crossed.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
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Hope she’s ok.
With her knowledge at least she’s not scaring herself on the Internet.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 29, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Hope she’s ok.
With her knowledge at least she’s not scaring herself on the Internet.
		
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My wife has beaten cancer three times now, how I wish most of the internet's amateur cancer experts would just sod orf.
I am amazed my lass can still keep her sanity and sense of humour.

Good luck to Mrs Hogie tomorrow, at least you will not be sitting in a waiting room with a bunch of other poo scared couples.


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## Hobbit (Apr 29, 2020)

Tonight's debate in the Spanish Parliament for a further extension to the lockdown and the planned, phased de-escalation isn't going well for the President. At present the main opposition party that supports his coalition govt is saying no more lockdown. I guess the debate might run into another day before there's a decision. Probably a bit of horse trading?


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Tonight's debate in the Spanish Parliament for a further extension to the lockdown and the planned, phased de-escalation isn't going well for the President. At present the main opposition party that supports his coalition govt is saying no more lockdown. I guess the debate might run into another day before there's a decision. Probably a bit of horse trading?
		
Click to expand...

Hope they go more with the science than with the horses


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## Billysboots (Apr 29, 2020)

I’ve been trying to really limit my access to the news now, such are the misleading and inaccurate articles. A classic example today has made my mind up for me - from here on I’m not limiting my access to the news, I’m knocking it altogether.

This morning, the good old BBC reported that a third of people admitted to hospital with coronavirus are dying. Whichever way you look at it those odds are horrifying.

Horrifying, but not the true picture. Having now seen the full quote, a third of those admitted are, indeed, dying - but it’s a third of those admitted FOR MORE THAN 14 DAYS. Not the same thing at all, and of course those in hospital for that length of time are likely to be extremely ill.

By quoting the findings out of context, whether deliberate or not, the BBC have done nothing but add to the already widespread fear. It’s careless journalism at best, downright irresponsible at worst. Either way it simply isn’t acceptable.

I’m sure I’ve said it before, but part of the inevitable public inquiry which will come must focus on the behaviour of our press and media, which has been largely reprehensible.


----------



## User20204 (Apr 29, 2020)

Guy on Newsnight just said or at least intimated that lock down will likely be extended again from next week.


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## Del_Boy (Apr 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard a Greek minister (Culture and Tourism?) this morning on Today tell us that Greece is planning to be open for holiday business this year.  Didn't say when.  Hmmm.  We are supposed to be going to Greece 2nd week in June. 

To be honest we are pretty uncertain about going - even if our BA flight is not cancelled.  And when we got back would we have to go into two weeks quarantine?
		
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BA have extended their flex scheme for all travel up to the end of July in so far as you can cancel your trip for a voucher that can be used up to end of April 2022.  Therefore, if BA do not cancel your flight you should be able to duck out for a voucher up to a week before your travel.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 30, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Guy on Newsnight just said or at least intimated that lock down will likely be extended again from next week.
		
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Wouldn't be at all surprised if it wasn't until the end of May, with a staged release after that. I've had murmurings fro my employers (who are big enough to have had talks with government) about limited services resuming in June, also my wife who works in education has been told similar about schools re opening and how to start getting ready for that. This would all fit in with the government extending the furlough scheme etc until the end of June

I don't have a problem with that if its the right thing to crush this virus and not risk it coming back, I do however think they need to be more trasparent with the public. Its obvious people are getting restless and starting to push the rules on lockdown, the only affect this will have is extending it further. I feel if they came out and said we will end it on this date, even if that is another 4 weeks away,  people would be far more inclined to go the extra mile and do the right thing.


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## Fish (Apr 30, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Guy on Newsnight just said or at least intimated that lock down will likely be extended again from next week.
		
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And rightly so.......


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## harpo_72 (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Tonight's debate in the Spanish Parliament for a further extension to the lockdown and the planned, phased de-escalation isn't going well for the President. At present the main opposition party that supports his coalition govt is saying no more lockdown. I guess the debate might run into another day before there's a decision. Probably a bit of horse trading?
		
Click to expand...

Has there been a bit of a diversion with the Spanish news anchor man’s affairs of the heart and multiple lock down partners 🙂.
Saw the video on daily rag website, with him conducting an interview and a nude female wonders on by in the background.. I thought it was hilarious but seems to have gone a little off piste for the chap.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2020)

Del_Boy said:



			BA have extended their flex scheme for all travel up to the end of July in so far as you can cancel your trip for a voucher that can be used up to end of April 2022.  Therefore, if BA do not cancel your flight you should be able to duck out for a voucher up to a week before your travel.
		
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Yup, we’ve had the email from BA offering that voucher.


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## Wolf (Apr 30, 2020)

Had to pop to our local co op yesterday evening to get some essentials as we finally ran out. Took a 5min drive as I'd already been out for my run, on the way there I passed the mobile Fish & Chip wagon that comes to our village every Wednesday and there must have been roughly 35-40 people queueing for food with absolutely zero social distancing at all. It was your regular sort of queue people literally stood next to each other as though it was normal. Unbelievable the other issue it caused is because there were so many there it meant anyone wanting to walk on the path couldn't so ended up with people in the road trying to avoid the mass gathering.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Wouldn't be at all surprised if it wasn't until the end of May, with a staged release after that. I've had murmurings fro my employers (who are big enough to have had talks with government) about limited services resuming in June, also my wife who works in education has been told similar about schools re opening and how to start getting ready for that. This would all fit in with the government extending the furlough scheme etc until the end of June

I don't have a problem with that if its the right thing to crush this virus and not risk it coming back, I do however think they need to be more trasparent with the public. Its obvious people are getting restless and starting to push the rules on lockdown, the only affect this will have is extending it further. I feel if they came out and said we will end it on this date, even if that is another 4 weeks away,  people would be far more inclined to go the extra mile and do the right thing.
		
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Whilst I don't disagree with what you say about a longer lock down , it won't "crush" the virus or stop it coming back. This virus is here for the long haul . Until we get a vaccine like we have for the seasonal flu or a medicine that treats the effects of it.

We have to adapt ways of life after lockdown for least a year id say with a new normal surfacing 

I agree June is much more likely for end of lock down

Would like to see sooner. Or least allowed to take my daughter to hug my parents. But greater good must come first


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve been trying to really limit my access to the news now, such are the misleading and inaccurate articles. A classic example today has made my mind up for me - from here on I’m not limiting my access to the news, I’m knocking it altogether.

This morning, the good old BBC reported that a third of people admitted to hospital with coronavirus are dying. Whichever way you look at it those odds are horrifying.

Horrifying, but not the true picture. Having now seen the full quote, a third of those admitted are, indeed, dying - but it’s a third of those admitted FOR MORE THAN 14 DAYS. Not the same thing at all, and of course those in hospital for that length of time are likely to be extremely ill.

By quoting the findings out of context, whether deliberate or not, the BBC have done nothing but add to the already widespread fear. It’s careless journalism at best, downright irresponsible at worst. Either way it simply isn’t acceptable.

I’m sure I’ve said it before, but part of the inevitable public inquiry which will come must focus on the behaviour of our press and media, which has been largely reprehensible.
		
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This is sooo right!  I am sure that most people are now sick and tired of the "gotcha" journalists and their reprehensible tactics. It's as if they have never been taught to be objective or responsible. The least they could do is realise that we have move to a situation far removed from the "Westminster game bubble".  It seems to be the only journalism they know.
Yesterday, the same TV channel as referred to above, was awaiting the Daily briefing and the newscaster had passed on to the political commentator who was giving her spiel, when suddenly she was stopped in her tracks with the studio breaking in to announce breaking news that they had just received the figures for the deaths in the last whatever it was. 
Jeez, they couldn't wait!  Bloody sickening it was. I am still seething, thinking about it.


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## drdel (Apr 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve been trying to really limit my access to the news now, such are the misleading and inaccurate articles. A classic example today has made my mind up for me - from here on I’m not limiting my access to the news, I’m knocking it altogether.

This morning, the good old BBC reported that a third of people admitted to hospital with coronavirus are dying. Whichever way you look at it those odds are horrifying.

Horrifying, but not the true picture. Having now seen the full quote, a third of those admitted are, indeed, dying - but it’s a third of those admitted FOR MORE THAN 14 DAYS. Not the same thing at all, and of course those in hospital for that length of time are likely to be extremely ill.

By quoting the findings out of context, whether deliberate or not, the BBC have done nothing but add to the already widespread fear. It’s careless journalism at best, downright irresponsible at worst. Either way it simply isn’t acceptable.

I’m sure I’ve said it before, but part of the inevitable public inquiry which will come must focus on the behaviour of our press and media, which has been largely reprehensible.
		
Click to expand...


The BBC Panorama used 5 doctors to rubbish the Government all had Labour association. Hardly balanced views.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 30, 2020)

The radio show I work for in Florida has become a paid-up supporter of anything Trump says.  My regular co-host is spouting so much rubbish that I have taken a short leave of absence from working for them under the pretence of other work taking priority.  No way could I be on air and he is ranting on about re-opening everything, the pandemic is nowhere near as bad as everyone says, Florida is OK etc etc.     I was talking yesterday with a work colleague in Milan and most people there are terrified to go out and all know friends who have suffered and died from it.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve been trying to really limit my access to the news now, such are the misleading and inaccurate articles. A classic example today has made my mind up for me - from here on I’m not limiting my access to the news, I’m knocking it altogether.

This morning, the good old BBC reported that a third of people admitted to hospital with coronavirus are dying. Whichever way you look at it those odds are horrifying.

Horrifying, but not the true picture. Having now seen the full quote, a third of those admitted are, indeed, dying - but it’s a third of those admitted FOR MORE THAN 14 DAYS. Not the same thing at all, and of course those in hospital for that length of time are likely to be extremely ill.

By quoting the findings out of context, whether deliberate or not, the BBC have done nothing but add to the already widespread fear. It’s careless journalism at best, downright irresponsible at worst. Either way it simply isn’t acceptable.

I’m sure I’ve said it before, but part of the inevitable public inquiry which will come must focus on the behaviour of our press and media, which has been largely reprehensible.
		
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Can I ask whereabouts you saw the the full thing which gave the "more than 14 days" bit. (A link perhaps?)   I've seen pieces quoting the general theme but none that gave that clarification. Nb: am not doubting, just interested to see it.


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## bluewolf (Apr 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC Panorama used 5 doctors to rubbish the Government all had Labour association. Hardly balanced views.
		
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But we’re they wrong? 

I didn’t watch the program as I was working so I don’t fully know what was stated, but it’s become a societal norm to attack the messengers without referencing the message. Is what they were saying false? If it was then I’d expect further action.


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## bluewolf (Apr 30, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Can I ask whereabouts you saw the the full thing which gave the "more than 14 days" bit. (A link perhaps?)   I've seen pieces quoting the general theme but none that gave that clarification. Nb: am not doubting, just interested to see it.
		
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I’m fairly certain that Sky we’re reporting the same thing this morning. No mention of 14 days. Just a figure of 33% mentioned (I think. I only caught it fleetingly as I was making the kids breakfast).


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## drdel (Apr 30, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But we’re they wrong?

I didn’t watch the program as I was working so I don’t fully know what was stated, but it’s become a societal norm to attack the messengers without referencing the message. Is what they were saying false? If it was then I’d expect further action.
		
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Their allegiance was not cited which contravenes the BBC guidelines. Surely the fact that ALL the medics were political activists from the left was a bit questionable?


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## bluewolf (Apr 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			Their allegiance was not cited which contravenes the BBC guidelines. Surely the fact that ALL the medics were political activists from the left was a bit questionable?
		
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Maybe, but we’re they wrong?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But we’re they wrong?

I didn’t watch the program as I was working so I don’t fully know what was stated, but it’s become a societal norm to attack the messengers without referencing the message. Is what they were saying false? If it was then I’d expect further action.
		
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Here’s the BBC response mate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr

funnily enough no rebutal about the facts from the Government, just highlighting their political allegiances.
I guess not all NHS Staff are heroes!


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## bluewolf (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Here’s the BBC response mate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr

funnily enough no rebutal about the facts from the Government, just highlighting their political allegiances.
I guess not all NHS Staff are heroes!

Click to expand...

Seems a measured response. However, it’s easy enough to attack the response as it’s been put out by the BBC who are now the whipping boys for both sides of the political spectrum.


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## pendodave (Apr 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC Panorama used 5 doctors to rubbish the Government all had Labour association. Hardly balanced views.
		
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pauldj42 said:



			Here’s the BBC response mate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr

funnily enough no rebutal about the facts from the Government, just highlighting their political allegiances.
I guess not all NHS Staff are heroes!

Click to expand...

I'm imagining that even this government realised that it is not a hill to die on....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Seems a measured response. However, it’s easy enough to attack the response as it’s been put out by the BBC who are now the whipping boys for both sides of the political spectrum.
		
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Weird though isn’t it, programme highlights the issue with PPE, fake news etc.
Daily Mail spends a miliion on PPE, big congrats from the tories.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 30, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



*The radio show I work for in Florida* has become a paid-up supporter of anything Trump says.  My regular co-host is spouting so much rubbish that I have taken a short leave of absence from working for them under the pretence of other work taking priority.  No way could I be on air and he is ranting on about re-opening everything, the pandemic is nowhere near as bad as everyone says, Florida is OK etc etc.     I was talking yesterday with a work colleague in Milan and most people there are terrified to go out and all know friends who have suffered and died from it.
		
Click to expand...

Who knew?  Tell me more, sounds interesting.


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## bluewolf (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Weird though isn’t it, programme highlights the issue with PPE, fake news etc.
Daily Mail spends a miliion on PPE, big congrats from the tories.

Click to expand...

It’s unfortunate. Political allegiances are getting in the way of being more effective. As soon as any criticism is forthcoming then it’s viewed as politically motivated and is dismissed out of hand. The discussion is being hindered.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			It’s unfortunate. Political allegiances are getting in the way of being more effective. As soon as any criticism is forthcoming then it’s viewed as politically motivated and is dismissed out of hand. The discussion is being hindered.
		
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Agreed, it was interesting and during the programme the Government did respond, I certainly didn’t get the impression during the programme it was politically motivated, but I also didn’t feel the Government weren’t trying their best and had responded to issues when they became aware of them.

The “outing” of the NHS Staff afterwards was initially done by guido fawkes and picked up by the msm.

Edit: Becareful discussing politics here, we’ll have the thread police on our back.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 30, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Who knew?  Tell me more, sounds interesting.
		
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I have done a slot for years on a sports station in Tampa called "Across the pond".  Talk about the Bucs from an NFL perspective but often digress into other sports where they want a European perspective.  Soccer, golf, tennis, Olympics, anything really.  Same as when 5Live want something from the States, it sounds more authentic coming from an American voice.


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## Billysboots (Apr 30, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Can I ask whereabouts you saw the the full thing which gave the "more than 14 days" bit. (A link perhaps?)   I've seen pieces quoting the general theme but none that gave that clarification. Nb: am not doubting, just interested to see it.
		
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It was a quote attributed to Prof Calum Semple, who is leading/working on the study.

Interestingly, it was quoted on the Sky News app, which this morning has produced a further article which is confusing and contradictory - now there’s a thing 

Whilst they now refer to 33% of coronavirus hospital admissions dying, there is still clear reference later in the article to 33% of those admitted for 14 days or more passing away. 

Frankly, I’ve given up trying to work out who’s telling the truth.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Here’s the BBC response mate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/panorama-mon-27-apr

funnily enough no rebutal about the facts from the Government, just highlighting their political allegiances.
I guess not all NHS Staff are heroes!

Click to expand...

The statement by the Beeb makes for some difficult reading, especially the 4 new revelations. However, the (whole)truth does have a different slant.

As example, NERVTAG minutes do show that a move away from eye glasses to visors is recommended. But it then goes on to say that the change will happen as the eye glasses are used up rather than dumping the eye glasses and buying in visors.

Similarly, the minutes show that gowns should become the PPE in aerosol generated cross infection but also acknowledges that there is a supply of aprons already in stock.

I'm not going to break the minutes down line by line, cross referencing them with the Beeb statement. Quite frankly I can't be 'arrised. *BUT* I will say, just using the eye glasses 'v' visors example, is that the Beeb have been a little disingenuous in selectively picking bits of minutes without adding in that the NERVTAG minutes say that the change will come about by use, not straight replacement.

I would just love someone in authority to ask the Beeb about the selective use of bits of the minutes. We know there are issues around PPE but lets see them sorted out honestly, and not by the very poor selective journalism seen above.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The statement by the Beeb makes for some difficult reading, especially the 4 new revelations. However, the (whole)truth does have a different slant.

As example, NERVTAG minutes do show that a move away from eye glasses to visors is recommended. But it then goes on to say that the change will happen as the eye glasses are used up rather than dumping the eye glasses and buying in visors.

Similarly, the minutes show that gowns should become the PPE in aerosol generated cross infection but also acknowledges that there is a supply of aprons already in stock.

I'm not going to break the minutes down line by line, cross referencing them with the Beeb statement. Quite frankly I can't be 'arrised. *BUT* I will say, just using the eye glasses 'v' visors example, is that the Beeb have been a little disingenuous in selectively picking bits of minutes without adding in that the NERVTAG minutes say that the change will come about by use, not straight replacement.

I would just love someone in authority to ask the Beeb about the selective use of bits of the minutes. We know there are issues around PPE but lets see them sorted out honestly, and not by the very poor selective journalism seen above.
		
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It’s nothing new though Bri, all parties claim the BBC is against them.

As I put above, watching the programme I didn’t feel it was politically motivated or made the Government look bad, it simply raised questions and I would rather the press pull the programme to bits using facts than the “let’s find the political persuasion of those interviewed” to discredit the programme.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking Mrs Hogie to hospital tomorrow for a scan of a problem she has spotted - it might be OK - it might not.  My wife knows too much.  It is her clinical specialism. We have told our son of the scan.  We will tell our daughter this evening.

Tomorrow, because of Covid-19, I will have to sit in our car in the car park as I won't be able to go into the hospital with my wife...so won't be with her when the consultant tells her what the scan shows.  Hopefully all will be OK.
		
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I missed this yesterday, hope all goes well for your wife today.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s nothing new though Bri, all parties claim the BBC is against them.

As I put above, watching the programme I didn’t feel it was politically motivated or made the Government look bad, it simply raised questions and I would rather the press pull the programme to bits using facts than the “let’s find the political persuasion of those interviewed” to discredit the programme.
		
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I don't think the Beeb are against anyone party or person. But the example I gave in my reply shows that in terms of responsible journalism and integrity they are shocking. All they appear to be interested in creating a headline. They could so easily have quoted all of the bit in the minutes that included that the eye glasses would be changed to visors as the eye glasses were used up. Similarly with gowns.

On the issue of gowns, just to make an observation. The staff wear blues under their aprons/gowns. Just as they are supposed to put the gown/apron in the bin, the blues are supposed to be taken off as they come of the ward/unit and they are supposed to shower before putting on civvies.


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## bobmac (Apr 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve been trying to really limit my access to the news now, such are the misleading and inaccurate articles. A classic example today has made my mind up for me - from here on I’m not limiting my access to the news, I’m knocking it altogether.
		
Click to expand...


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 30, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I was at the old Tampa stadium early 1991, watched the Outback Bowl sat right at the top of the stadium.
It was a month before the Superbowl was there so there was quite a buzz around.
One of our guys met Vinny Testaverde the QB in the car park (lot....! 😉).
I have some pics somewhere.
		
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I was on the sidelines for a game in 1988 and got to know Vinny quite well.  He had a tough time in Tampa and became a better person years later when he re-married and his father passed away (sad but true). His son was in Buc camp last season.     The Outback Bowl is now always played on New Years Day in Tampa.  Not been to one myself but I've seen a few USF games at Raymond James Stadium.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

Spain's numbers continue to improve. 

Yesterday saw the lowest number of new infections since whenever at just over 1,300. Recoveries are now comfortably outstripping deaths and new infections.

Deaths for yesterday was down to 268, the lowest since whenever.

Everything going in the right direction but, as before, we shouldn't lose sight of the pain being suffered by so many families.

Stay safe folks.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain's numbers continue to improve.

Yesterday saw the lowest number of new infections since whenever at just over 1,300. Recoveries are now comfortably outstripping deaths and new infections.

Deaths for yesterday was down to 268, the lowest since whenever.

Everything going in the right direction but, as before, we shouldn't lose sight of the pain being suffered by so many families.

Stay safe folks.
		
Click to expand...

Nice to hear some good news.


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## Billysboots (Apr 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Nice to hear some good news.
		
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Indeed. I might even start looking at the news again in the event they start reporting the good, rather than the incessant doom and gloom.


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## Billysboots (Apr 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



View attachment 30337

Click to expand...


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## Green Bay Hacker (Apr 30, 2020)

FIL's funeral this morning after catching Covid. Worst part was that I had to watch it on the internet as I am self isolating.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 30, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			FIL's funeral this morning after catching Covid. Worst part was that I had to watch it on the internet as I am self isolating.
		
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Sorry to hear that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think the Beeb are against anyone party or person. But the example I gave in my reply shows that in terms of responsible journalism and integrity they are shocking. All they appear to be interested in creating a headline. They could so easily have quoted all of the bit in the minutes that included that the eye glasses would be changed to visors as the eye glasses were used up. Similarly with gowns.

On the issue of gowns, just to make an observation. The staff wear blues under their aprons/gowns. Just as they are supposed to put the gown/apron in the bin, the blues are supposed to be taken off as they come of the ward/unit and they are supposed to shower before putting on civvies.
		
Click to expand...

The fact alone that they upset all sides I believe they are impartial as an organisation and I totally agree the issue is more about the responsible journalism.

I took the programme with a pinch of salt, the social media and newspapers annoyed me with their response and I’ve learnt more from your post than anything else read or seen since the programme aired.


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## Wolf (Apr 30, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			FIL's funeral this morning after catching Covid. Worst part was that I had to watch it on the internet as I am self isolating.
		
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That's tough man, keep yourself well and I'm sure the FiL & family know your thoughts are with them. Stay strong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Some positivity folks:

Perhaps the most important news of the week.

South Korean experts have concluded that the patients who were feared to have been 'reinfected' with the virus were just false positives.

A huge boost for long term immunity - many scientists were very concerned about those reports.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 30, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			FIL's funeral this morning after catching Covid. Worst part was that I had to watch it on the internet as I am self isolating.
		
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That’s a really tough thing about this virus .
It stops the normal.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think the Beeb are against anyone party or person. But the example I gave in my reply shows that in terms of responsible journalism and integrity they are shocking. *All they appear to be interested in creating a headline. *They could so easily have quoted all of the bit in the minutes that included that the eye glasses would be changed to visors as the eye glasses were used up. Similarly with gowns.

On the issue of gowns, just to make an observation. The staff wear blues under their aprons/gowns. Just as they are supposed to put the gown/apron in the bin, the blues are supposed to be taken off as they come of the ward/unit and they are supposed to shower before putting on civvies.
		
Click to expand...

But is that not an accusation that can be levelled at pretty much any broadcaster or newspaper? If one looks at the reporting of any story about which you know the underlying facts, you quickly spot how  frequently the reporting is wildly different to the actuality - or at least has a significant slant on it. Not really sure the Beeb is any worse/better than anyone else?


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## Imurg (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Some positivity folks:

Perhaps the most important news of the week.

South Korean experts have concluded that the patients who were feared to have been 'reinfected' with the virus were just false positives.

A huge boost for long term immunity - many scientists were very concerned about those reports.
		
Click to expand...

Saw that earlier on.
Some good news.
There is some out there...


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## Green Bay Hacker (Apr 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s a really tough thing about this virus .
It stops the normal.
		
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Unfortunately there is no normal anymore. Having just been diagnosed with blood clots on both lungs I have to be extremely careful about what I do and who I have contact with. Hospital visits last week were a nightmare and you look at everyone with suspicion.


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## JamesR (Apr 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			The BBC Panorama used 5 doctors to rubbish the Government all had Labour association. Hardly balanced views.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Labour activists are just more likely to be carers than Tory activists are?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Saw that earlier on.
Some good news.
There is some out there...

Click to expand...

Found this info as well:

“Experts can't find a single time a child under 10 has transmitted the virus to an adult.

The WHO has found the same & the Swiss have already relaxed restrictions.

This is potentially significant, although we do need more evidence.”


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 30, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			Unfortunately there is no normal anymore. Having just been diagnosed with blood clots on both lungs I have to be extremely careful about what I do and who I have contact with. Hospital visits last week were a nightmare and you look at everyone with suspicion.
		
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Yes I know where you are coming from.
My wife is in the same situation.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Found this info as well:

“Experts can't find a single time a child under 10 has transmitted the virus to an adult.

The WHO has found the same & the Swiss have already relaxed restrictions.

This is potentially significant, although we do need more evidence.”
		
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That’s good news if true!
But how can that be proven or not?
Not disputing it but sounds a bit unbelievable if it can live on hard surfaces, pencils rulers etc.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 30, 2020)

Wife got update from her school (they kept all pregnant staff away from the school. Which was closed anyways but their are part of a 3 school trust and staff being used in the other 2 schools)

Anyways her school is to remain closed until September even then phased return until January for the pupils 

The pregnant staff will be kept off until then

Which suits us personally as the twins arrive end of sept so she won't be back at work for a long while


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Found this info as well:

“Experts can't find a single time a child under 10 has transmitted the virus to an adult.

The WHO has found the same & the Swiss have already relaxed restrictions.

This is potentially significant, although we do need more evidence.”
		
Click to expand...

This is my favourite bit of information 🤪🤯
LET THE KIDS GO BACK TO SCHOOL


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 30, 2020)

.


pauljames87 said:



			Wife got update from her school (they kept all pregnant staff away from the school. Which was closed anyways but their are part of a 3 school trust and staff being used in the other 2 schools)

Anyways her school is to remain closed until September even then phased return until January for the pupils

The pregnant staff will be kept off until then

Which suits us personally as the twins arrive end of sept so she won't be back at work for a long while
		
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Is that a private school? I have not seen anything similar for state schools and we know a few teachers.


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## bluewolf (Apr 30, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			But is that not an accusation that can be levelled at pretty much any broadcaster or newspaper? If one looks at the reporting of any story about which you know the underlying facts, you quickly spot how  frequently the reporting is wildly different to the actuality - or at least has a significant slant on it. Not really sure the Beeb is any worse/better than anyone else?
		
Click to expand...

It’s not. Not only is it not worse. It’s frequently better. But it does still have a tendency to chase headlines as it still needs ratings/clicks etc, even if it’s for different reasons than other news outlets. 

However, if you think it’s bad now. Just wait till they scrap the license fee and they have to chase advertisers. The race to the bottom for the whole of the UK media sector will be quick and brutal.


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## User20204 (Apr 30, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			LET THE KIDS GO BACK TO SCHOOL
		
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Said every parent UK wide


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## Imurg (Apr 30, 2020)

Un,ess the Government are going to pay the childcare, when businesses start reopening there will be a need for the kids to go back...otherwise many workers wont be able to.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 30, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Maybe Labour activists are just more likely to be carers than Tory activists are?
		
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Why?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

So after 2 positives I have a negative, needed to go to a shop today for the first time in 12 days after a few bits were missing from our home delivery.

A distinct lack of gloves and face masks being worn compared to 12 days ago in my local area.

Not sure if people are getting complacent or all this talk of “easing out of lockdown” or people are just bored of it all, I don’t know.

Whatever the reason they need to switch back on or we really aren’t going to get through this anytime soon.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			.

Is that a private school? I have not seen anything similar for state schools and we know a few teachers.
		
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No its not private 

But they are a trust of 3 schools in the area she works in

They have kept 2 sites open and don't see them being fully needed to open her school again until September

Apparently new guidance was issued at lunch but the link she was sent was to the guardian

That's the latest she was told today tho

Either way soon as summer holidays come she won't return until may ISH time next year due to mat leave


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

Some more good news. Might sound a little trivial but Almeria hospital have announced there were no new intakes into ITU, and there are 3 spare beds. I don't know what their typical bed occupancy numbers look like but I was well chuffed to hear of vacancies. Lets hope it stays that way.


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## GB72 (Apr 30, 2020)

Only a short section on BBC news but it appears that the German RO did move up to 1 briefly on Monday but dropped down again very quickly to 0.76. Not all doom and gloom from those easing lockdowns at least. 

Personal opinion, we will be drip fed small relaxations from next week. Seems pretty clear that council tips, recycling centres and garden centres will be first off the block and I can see that coming pretty soon and then maybe further small changes over the next few weeks.


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## hovis (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So after 2 positives I have a negative, needed to go to a shop today for the first time in 12 days after a few bits were missing from our home delivery.

A distinct lack of gloves and face masks being worn compared to 12 days ago in my local area.

Not sure if people are getting complacent or all this talk of “easing out of lockdown” or people are just bored of it all, I don’t know.

Whatever the reason they need to switch back on or we really aren’t going to get through this anytime soon.
		
Click to expand...

why do people have to wear gloves and masks?


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Found this info as well:

“Experts can't find a single time a child under 10 has transmitted the virus to an adult.

The WHO has found the same & the Swiss have already relaxed restrictions.

This is potentially significant, although we do need more evidence.”
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I'm not sure this is true the Germans have looked at viral loads in children and found them the same as adults and the presumption is that their infectivity is the same.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-scientists-caution-against-reopening-schools


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Found this info as well:

“Experts can't find a single time a child under 10 has transmitted the virus to an adult.

The WHO has found the same & the Swiss have already relaxed restrictions.

This is potentially significant, although we do need more evidence.”
		
Click to expand...

Maybe not passing it on by coughing, breathing close etc, but Shirley they must pass it on , just as adults do, by touching surfaces and picking it up on their skin. And, being children, there won't be enough washing of hands to help negate that.
I suspect " experts can't find" means the same as "there is no evidence that...."


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## hovis (Apr 30, 2020)

Backache said:



			Unfortunately I'm not sure this is true the Germans have looked at viral loads in children and found them the same as adults and the presumption is that their infectivity is the same.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-scientists-caution-against-reopening-schools

Click to expand...

 the Swedish report went as far as saying children don't have the receptor sites for the virus!  God knows


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			the Swedish report went as far as saying children don't have the receptor sites for the virus!  God knows
		
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I don't claim expertise on the matter but it sounds highly improbable to me.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 30, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Maybe not passing it on by coughing, breathing close etc, but Shirley they must pass it on , just as adults do, by touching surfaces and picking it up on their skin. And, being children, there won't be enough washing of hands to help negate that.
I suspect " experts can't find" means the same as "there is no evidence that...."
		
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This is a new strain of the virus.
Nothing like we have seen before .
So ” Experts” guessing about transmission from children isn’t helping imo.
when they can prove it ,that’s the time to tell us.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 30, 2020)

Backache said:



			I don't claim expertise on the matter but it sounds highly improbable to me.
		
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Children have less ACE2 receptors on their lung cells compared to adults. Men have more than women hence why more men are succumbing.


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Maybe Labour activists are just more likely to be carers than Tory activists are?
		
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Depending where they live, I doubt there are many Labour carer activists here even though we have a lot of care homes


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So after 2 positives I have a negative, needed to go to a shop today for the first time in 12 days after a few bits were missing from our home delivery.

A distinct lack of gloves and face masks being worn compared to 12 days ago in my local area.

Not sure if people are getting complacent or all this talk of “easing out of lockdown” or people are just bored of it all, I don’t know.

Whatever the reason they need to switch back on or we really aren’t going to get through this anytime soon.
		
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Yep, getting like the end of tour, there needs to be some serious gripping by the authorities.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 30, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Children have less ACE2 receptors on their lung cells compared to adults. Men have more than women hence why more men are succumbing.
		
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ACE2 receptors btw are how the virus get into the lung cells, replicate and then burst out.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Backache said:



			Unfortunately I'm not sure this is true the Germans have looked at viral loads in children and found them the same as adults and the presumption is that their infectivity is the same.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-scientists-caution-against-reopening-schools

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If you read what I copied it specifically mentions children under 10, your link doesn’t seperate ages.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			ACE2 receptors btw are how the virus get into the lung cells, replicate and then burst out.
		
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One thing that raised an eyebrow with me is the number of patients in dialysis machines. I've not tried to look it up but did wonder is it that the virus attacks all the organs or is it the number of dead cells the kidneys are having to deal with?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			why do people have to wear gloves and masks?
		
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They don’t have to, but it certainly helps limit the spread if they have it and don’t know they do.

Update:
PM just stated that SAGE believes face coverings will be useful for both epidemioligal reasons and giving people confidence when they go about their business.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			why do people have to wear gloves and masks?
		
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Imagine you're working in ITU and the person you're dealing with imparts 10,000,000 bugs onto your gloves. When you peel them off, you peel off the thick end of 10,000,000. Then wash your hands.

999 people out of 1000 wash off all the bugs. Some might leave 500 bugs. 1 person gets it.

If you don't wear the gloves you increase the risk. Its a numbers thing - BTW, that's a very simplistic way for me to explain it. There'll be someone out there who can give you better numbers.

For masks its the aerosol thing but similarly, when you take the mask off you remove most of the bugs. Shower, and you remove the rest.

EDIT: oops, Paul's just replied.


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## hovis (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Imagine you're working in ITU and the person you're dealing with imparts 10,000,000 bugs onto your gloves. When you peel them off, you peel off the thick end of 10,000,000. Then wash your hands.

999 people out of 1000 wash off all the bugs. Some might leave 500 bugs. 1 person gets it.

If you don't wear the gloves you increase the risk. Its a numbers thing - BTW, that's a very simplistic way for me to explain it. There'll be someone out there who can give you better numbers.

For masks its the aerosol thing but similarly, when you take the mask off you remove most of the bugs. Shower, and you remove the rest.

EDIT: oops, Paul's just replied.
		
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that's if people peel them off.  the amount of people I have seen arrive at the supermarket wearing gloves, do their shopping and then drive home wearing the same pair!   omg


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			that's if people peel them off.  the amount of people I have seen arrive at the supermarket wearing gloves, do their shopping and then drive home wearing the same pair!   omg
		
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There's a word for people like that. And that word is morons. 👍


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Children have less ACE2 receptors on their lung cells compared to adults. Men have more than women hence why more men are succumbing.
		
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Having fewer receptors is not the same as not being able to access the cell.The receptor difference between men and women may be an interesting hypothesis it  has not as far as I have seen been  accepted as fact.


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If you read what I copied it specifically mentions children under 10, your link doesn’t seperate ages.
		
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If you read the linked publication it covers all ages including under 10's


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Backache said:



			If you read the linked publication it covers all ages including under 10's
		
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I did, very generic article, no breakdown by age and my initial post did say:

“This is potentially significant, although we do need more evidence.”

So I’ll still take it as a positive, you can feel free to ignore it.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			that's if people peel them off.  the amount of people I have seen arrive at the supermarket wearing gloves, do their shopping and then drive home wearing the same pair!   omg
		
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I drive home with them on. But there again I've done plenty of Control of Infection lectures to know what I should be doing. Think about it...….... you come out of the supermarket, potentially, with 'dirty' hands. You peel the gloves off, and still have some 'dirt' on them because you still haven't washed your hands. You then transfer that 'dirt' onto the steering wheel/door handles/switches. Keep your gloves on to protect yourself. Also, for whatever reason, it makes you less likely to touch your face. When you get home, 'doff' your gear, clean the car, then get a bloody good wash.

Would you work with rough lumber without gloves? No. Just because you can't see the problem doesn't mean it isn't there.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 30, 2020)

G


pauldj42 said:



			They don’t have to, but it certainly helps limit the spread if they have it and don’t know they do.

Update:
PM just stated that SAGE believes face coverings will be useful for both epidemioligal reasons and giving people confidence when they go about their business.
		
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However gloves have been proven to be worse at spreading the virus than skin. People don't use them correctly. So it's more harmful in the main for people to use gloves than to just wash their hands when they get home

I personally use gloves , but carry hand gel in the car so soon as their off I clean my hands to limit the spread Further 

Been a few doctors sharing videos about it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			G


However gloves have been proven to be worse at spreading the virus than skin. People don't use them correctly. So it's more harmful in the main for people to use gloves than to just wash their hands when they get home

I personally use gloves , but carry hand gel in the car so soon as their off I clean my hands to limit the spread Further

Been a few doctors sharing videos about it
		
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If I have Covid-19 and I’m unaware I have it, but wear gloves and a face mask when I’m out then I am reducing the risk of me spreading it.

It’s not solely about catching it.


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## hovis (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I drive home with them on. But there again I've done plenty of Control of Infection lectures to know what I should be doing. Think about it...….... you come out of the supermarket, potentially, with 'dirty' hands. You peel the gloves off, and still have some 'dirt' on them because you still haven't washed your hands. You then transfer that 'dirt' onto the steering wheel/door handles/switches. Keep your gloves on to protect yourself. Also, for whatever reason, it makes you less likely to touch your face. When you get home, 'doff' your gear, clean the car, then get a bloody good wash.

Would you work with rough lumber without gloves? No. Just because you can't see the problem doesn't mean it isn't there.
		
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like you I've done many courses.  gloves go on clean hands. if you take them off correctly you get zero contamination. however, during training they put uv dye on our gloves.  the task was to remove them without transference.  the first glove is easy.  second not so much. 

the secret is to double glove


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I did, very generic article, no breakdown by age .
		
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I was referring to the scientific paper to which the article links where they very specifically do breakdown by age.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

hovis said:



			like you I've done many courses.  gloves go on clean hands. if you take them off correctly you get zero contamination. however, during training they put uv dye on our gloves.  the task was to remove them without transference.  the first glove is easy.  second not so much.

the secret is to double glove
		
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Double gloving is about rips, tears and perforations. There is a process for taking off the double gloves but there is still a contamination issue, though reduced. 95% of the reason for double gloving isn't it gives you better protection from the virus in front of you, its about rips, tears and perforations.

Bit blunt but not meant to offend, I wouldn't tell you how to fight a fire. Seeing your post on gloves boils my pee. You're fireman with some knowledge of PPE but in this instance its only some knowledge. If someone says wear the PPE don't question it.


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## funkycoldmedina (Apr 30, 2020)

Backache said:



			Having fewer receptors is not the same as not being able to access the cell.The receptor difference between men and women may be an interesting hypothesis it  has not as far as I have seen been  accepted as fact.
		
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Very true, my post did come across as fact and it indeed is a hypothesis. 
With regard kids and the receptor maybe it's the initial cell loading which is reduced because there are less access point for the virus so the immune system has a chance to produce an antibody rather than the cytokine storm we see in some adults?


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I drive home with them on. But there again I've done plenty of Control of Infection lectures to know what I should be doing. Think about it...….... you come out of the supermarket, potentially, with 'dirty' hands. You peel the gloves off, and still have some 'dirt' on them because you still haven't washed your hands. You then transfer that 'dirt' onto the steering wheel/door handles/switches. Keep your gloves on to protect yourself. Also, for whatever reason, it makes you less likely to touch your face. When you get home, 'doff' your gear, clean the car, then get a bloody good wash.

Would you work with rough lumber without gloves? No. Just because you can't see the problem doesn't mean it isn't there.
		
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Fine if your trained but for the untrained it could cause problems.  Prefer the untrained to strip of at home and jump in the shower.


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Very true, my post did come across as fact and it indeed is a hypothesis.
With regard kids and the receptor maybe it's the initial cell loading which is reduced because there are less access point for the virus so the immune system has a chance to produce an antibody rather than the cytokine storm we see in some adults?
		
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Maybe,  though viral shedding appears to be the same across all ages.


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## hovis (Apr 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Double gloving is about rips, tears and perforations. There is a process for taking off the double gloves but there is still a contamination issue, though reduced. 95% of the reason for double gloving isn't it gives you better protection from the virus in front of you, its about rips, tears and perforations.

Bit blunt but not meant to offend, I wouldn't tell you how to fight a fire. Seeing your post on gloves boils my pee. You're fireman with some knowledge of PPE but in this instance its only some knowledge. If someone says wear the PPE don't question it.
		
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I'm one level bellow a paramedic.  my primary reason for double gloving is so you can move from one patient to another with ease.  it's also hugely effective at some what diluting\ allowing for error when de-gloving.  if I'm removing gloves with covid on them it's nice to know i have a second chance when undressing.    also, I'm delivering food to covid people so I'm fully aware of guidance regarding PPE and why it's in place


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## hovis (Apr 30, 2020)

for people who don't know how. gives you a idea


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 30, 2020)

Scientists, doctors and specialists have been telling us for over 2 months not to bother wearing gloves or masks. They gave very clear and logical reasons why they were unnecessary. Was that cobblers or not? What's changed?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 30, 2020)

Backache said:



			Maybe,  though viral shedding appears to be the same across all ages.
		
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My main worry was can the kids of any age carry this on pencil cases ,backpacks shoes etc.
They have no sense of SD


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## hovis (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Scientists, doctors and specialists have been telling us for over 2 months not to bother wearing gloves or masks. They gave very clear and logical reasons why they were unnecessary. Was that cobblers or not? What's changed?
		
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unless you have open wounds or cuts on your hands gloves don't do anything that hand washing doesn't.  i would argue that i probably touch my face less when I'm wearing gloves. but that's me.  it's also convenient to correctly take gloves off if you can't wash your hands.  like when your at the boot of your car


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## GB72 (Apr 30, 2020)

Going to use a strange analogy but gloves and masks are like when pads were introduced to rugby. Rather than lessen injuries, players thought they were bullet proof, took more risks and were injured more. People I have seen in gloves and masks walk round like they are immune and that is dangerous. They do not seem to get that the mask protects other people more than the wearer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Scientists, doctors and specialists have been telling us for over 2 months not to bother wearing gloves or masks. They gave very clear and logical reasons why they were unnecessary. Was that cobblers or not? What's changed?
		
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I wear them as a reminder not to touch my face and also as a remote possibility of me being a carrier and passing it on.
They are not a replacement for washing your hands or using an alcohol gel etc.

All this was started by a simple observation that 12 days ago people seemed far more conscious of taking preventitive measures by wearing gloves or a mask or both, today that was few and far between, to me, imo, it shows a possible lack in attitude towards the virus.

Obviously being the lockdown we are all bored and some of us like to play the one upmanship game.


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## GB72 (Apr 30, 2020)

I will be honest though, I have bought some bits to cover my face as I sort of feel that their required use in certain circumstances will become compulsory for a while and once that happens they will be like hens teeth to find. Guessing will not be masks as compulsory but some form of scarf, wrap or similar


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Scientists, doctors and specialists have been telling us for over 2 months not to bother wearing gloves or masks. They gave very clear and logical reasons why they were unnecessary. Was that cobblers or not? What's changed?
		
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Nothing, it was in the context of how it may help when some businesses opened up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing, it was in the context of how it may help when some businesses opened up.
		
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I have no problem if the advice has changed. I'm just trying to understand why advice which has been so consistent may now be changed. The experts don't seem to be putting their hearts into the move down this road so why do it?

I'm not making any judgement or comment about people wearing this gear now, that was not the point of my question.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I wear them as a reminder not to touch my face and also as a remote possibility of me being a carrier and passing it on.
They are not a replacement for washing your hands or using an alcohol gel etc.

All this was started by a simple observation that 12 days ago people seemed far more conscious of taking preventitive measures by wearing gloves or a mask or both, today that was few and far between, to me, imo, it shows a possible lack in attitude towards the virus.

Obviously being the lockdown we are all bored and some of us like to play the one upmanship game.
		
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I wasn't replying to your post incidentally, it's a genuine query 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I wasn't replying to your post incidentally, it's a genuine query 👍
		
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I know mate.


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2020)

I need new trousers (2 sizes up) and a good hair cut.  Also very concerned for the oldest profession in the world, how will those girls cope post lockdown.


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## Hobbit (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I have no problem if the advice has changed. I'm just trying to understand why advice which has been so consistent may now be changed. The experts don't seem to be putting their hearts into the move down this road so why do it?

I'm not making any judgement or comment about people wearing this gear now, that was not the point of my question.
		
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Honestly, with an infection quotient of R=3 when society was moving around normally I genuinely don't know of a logical reason why the advice was not to wear PPE. I have a cynical reason, which without proof is unfair, and that is if the general public were buying it there would be even less for the NHS.

And as an observation, if the NHS staff in the critical areas were crying out for it there was obviously a need for it. And if they were worried enough to build Nightingale's to cope with the numbers infected there's a need for it.

Beyond that its up to each of us to draw our own conclusions.


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## Billysboots (Apr 30, 2020)

I get the impression the suggestion regarding face masks is about giving the wearer the confidence to venture out, as much as anything else.

What I’m interested to know is where we’re likely to be able to source them from. Can they be manufactured from stockpiled loo roll, because you can bet your life they will be as hard to find?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 30, 2020)

Diamond said:



			I need new trousers (2 sizes up) and a good hair cut.  *Also very concerned for the oldest profession in the world, how will those girls cope post lockdown.*

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I don't know the answer to that question but I will be doing everything in my power to support them as soon as it is safe to do so.




Just don't tell Mrs Colch.


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## larmen (Apr 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I get the impression the suggestion regarding face masks is about giving the wearer the confidence to venture out, as much as anything else.

What I’m interested to know is where we’re likely to be able to source them from. Can they be manufactured from stockpiled loo roll, because you can bet your life they will be as hard to find?
		
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And hard to get once manufactured. Maybe they have to send every household a pack based on council registrations.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I get the impression the suggestion regarding face masks is about giving the wearer the confidence to venture out, as much as anything else.

What I’m interested to know is where we’re likely to be able to source them from. Can they be manufactured from stockpiled loo roll, because you can bet your life they will be as hard to find?
		
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It depends on what type of face masks you mean. If we're talking about the FFP3 (?) ones that are recommended for frontline staff dealing with the virus then I would hope that they would be extremely difficult for the general public to get hold of. If we're talking about homemade masks/non medical quality ones that do more to protect others than yourself then these should be very easy to source.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I get the impression the suggestion regarding face masks is about giving the wearer the confidence to venture out, as much as anything else.

What I’m interested to know is where we’re likely to be able to source them from. Can they be manufactured from stockpiled loo roll, because you can bet your life they will be as hard to find?
		
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I don't think they are asking people to wear surgical masks. It could be any old scarf or covering. People may be digging out their old Palestinian scarves from university days 😳.


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I have no problem if the advice has changed. I'm just trying to understand why advice which has been so consistent may now be changed. The experts don't seem to be putting their hearts into the move down this road so why do it?

I'm not making any judgement or comment about people wearing this gear now, that was not the point of my question.
		
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I think the advice has changed as a result of a bit more understanding about the virus and thoughts about the purpose of facemasks.
The recommendation that facemasks gave little protection was largely based on the fact that people take them off and fiddle and will be transferring things on it back to themselves anyway. I don't think this has changed much as an idea.
What has changed a bit is the thought of how wearing a facemask can protect others from the wearer.
It is now thought that a fair bit of the transmission may come before people get symptoms. If people are wearing masks they are less likely to project respiratory droplets to others as they will be trapped by the mask.
ie The mask is to protect others not the wearer.


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## User20204 (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think they are asking people to wear surgical masks. It could be any old scarf or covering. People may be digging out their old Palestinian scarves from university days 😳.
		
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Where is this being asked to be done ? 

I know the FM in Scotland has made reference to the use of face covering indoors in shops etc


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think they are asking people to wear surgical masks. It could be any old scarf or covering. People may be digging out their old Palestinian scarves from university days 😳.
		
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Backache said:



			I think the advice has changed as a result of a bit more understanding about the virus and thoughts about the purpose of facemasks.
The recommendation that facemasks gave little protection was largely based on the fact that people take them off and fiddle and will be transferring things on it back to themselves anyway. I don't think this has changed much as an idea.
What has changed a bit is the thought of how wearing a facemask can protect others from the wearer.
It is now thought that a fair bit of the transmission may come before people get symptoms. If people are wearing masks they are less likely to project respiratory droplets to others as they will be trapped by the mask.
ie The mask is to protect others not the wearer.
		
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Boris today said he is all for it if it gives people confidence to leave the house.  Some people have not left their house for nearly 6 weeks. It could make a huge difference to their well being.  Also look at it this way most golfers have pitch mark repairers but how many actually use them properly or at all. Same with face masks, stick a mask on an idiot and he will still infect somebody due to being a thick lout.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Where is this being asked to be done ?

I know the FM in Scotland has made reference to the use of face covering indoors in shops etc
		
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PM today at the briefing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2020)

Diamond said:



			Boris today said he is all for it if it gives people confidence to leave the house.  Some people have not left their house for nearly 6 weeks. It could make a huge difference to their well being.  Also look at it this way most golfers have pitch mark repairers but how many actually use them properly or at all. Same with face masks, *stick a mask on an idiot and he will still infect somebody due to being a thick lout*.
		
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What a ridiculous comment.


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## Diamond (Apr 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What a ridiculous comment.

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Why thank you.


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## Wolf (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think they are asking people to wear surgical masks. It could be any old scarf or covering. People may be digging out their old Palestinian scarves from university days 😳.
		
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Be digging out an old shemagh myself then, mind you be first time wearing one in the uk and not carrying 😳


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## GB72 (Apr 30, 2020)

Guessing advice also changes on circumstance. Facemasks when compared to spending most of the time at home are not great, not going to make much difference when only going out occasionally, social distancing etc. When everyone is allowed out again and there are more people around, they may make more of a difference.


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## Backache (Apr 30, 2020)

Diamond said:



			Boris today said he is all for it if it gives people confidence to leave the house.  Some people have not left their house for nearly 6 weeks. It could make a huge difference to their well being.  Also look at it this way most golfers have pitch mark repairers but how many actually use them properly or at all. Same with face masks, stick a mask on an idiot and he will still infect somebody due to being a thick lout.
		
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What Boris said and what the Science says are somewhat different though.
I was answering as to why the recommendations have changed a bit from a Scientific point of view.


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## Diamond (May 1, 2020)

Backache said:



			What Boris said and what the Science says are somewhat different though.
I was answering as to why the recommendations have changed a bit from a Scientific point of view.
		
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Boris is not a scientist and doesn’t have the same opportunity to change his mind as frequently. Saying that he did let slip some I info about the new rules about lockdown next week. One being the fact that psychologically wearing a mask can be a benefit. But like anything the wearer needs to have common sense and still social distance, not go out unless vital and wash hands religiously.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 1, 2020)

Diamond said:



			I need new trousers (2 sizes up) and a good hair cut.  Also very concerned for the oldest profession in the world, how will those girls cope post lockdown. 

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Are you worried because of all the fatter blokes squashing them?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



View attachment 30337

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Or the alternative version.
Stay Home
Keep Quiet
Save the Government

Very strange how the folk on here who vigorously attacked Scots Independence supporters when they pointed out the flaws and bias in BBC reporting seem to have totally flip flopped on their views that the BBC were to be trusted to be totally impartial.
What has changed.

BTW, for clarity the Scottish government recommended face COVERINGS to be worn on public transport and in food shops.
Not specifically face masks.


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## MegaSteve (May 1, 2020)

Delivered, yesterday, an oximeter and some hairclippers... Here's hoping I don't need the use of either... But, judging by the look in her eye the hairclippers will be in use sooner rather than later...

And, in serious need of IT support which will likely have to wait for lockdown to end...


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## Mudball (May 1, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Delivered, yesterday, an oximeter and some hairclippers... Here's hoping I don't need the use of either... But, judging by the look in her eye the hairclippers will be in use sooner rather than later...

*And, in serious need of IT support *which will likely have to wait for lockdown to end...
		
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We have plenty of IT folks who can throw a keyboard further than they can hit their drivers....  So feel free to start a new thread and de-Fragger will be on it straightaway


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## 3offTheTee (May 1, 2020)

Just a quickie re this Restaurant factor.

Understand the spread etc. Re >1:<1 However

The figures quoted is between 0.6 and 0.9. How is this calculated please and it seems a huge amount of variance?

Many thanks for any input


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## GB72 (May 1, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Just a quickie re this Restaurant factor.

Understand the spread etc. Re >1:<1 However

The figures quoted is between 0.6 and 0.9. How is this calculated please and it seems a huge amount of variance?

Many thanks for any input
		
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From what I heard yesterday, the figure of 0.6 to .09 is due to regional variance, some areas lower, some higher but in general in that range.


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## Mudball (May 1, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Just a quickie re this Restaurant factor.

Understand the spread etc. Re >1:<1 However

The figures quoted is between 0.6 and 0.9. How is this calculated please and it seems a huge amount of variance?

Many thanks for any input
		
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Here is a link >> https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...t-is-the-r-value-what-does-R-mean-coronavirus 

If instead of the Express, you want a more scientific approach then here >> https://labblog.uofmhealth.org/rounds/how-scientists-quantify-intensity-of-an-outbreak-like-covid-19 

The paper which discusses how to >> https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/25/1/17-1901_article


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## Backache (May 1, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Just a quickie re this Restaurant factor.

Understand the spread etc. Re >1:<1 However

The figures quoted is between 0.6 and 0.9. How is this calculated please and it seems a huge amount of variance?

Many thanks for any input
		
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Unless you have very accurate knowledge of the numbers infected it cannot be calculated. It is instead estimated using mathematical model and proxies for infection.
The reasons for the differences are partly due to differences indifferent parts of the country as suggested above but also because different models give different answers. 
The chief scientist yesterday suggested they are going to do larger scale randomised testing to get a better estimate.


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain's numbers continue to improve.

Yesterday saw the lowest number of new infections since whenever at just over 1,300. Recoveries are now comfortably outstripping deaths and new infections.

Deaths for yesterday was down to 268, the lowest since whenever.

Everything going in the right direction but, as before, we shouldn't lose sight of the pain being suffered by so many families.

Stay safe folks.
		
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And continue to improve.

New infections drop even further to less than 1,200.
New deaths up by 13 to 281 but less than 300 for the second day running.

Tomorrow sees us outside our gate for exercise, but only up to 1km from our gate and we can go together. Believe me, this is a massive plus for us. And as the population of the village is less than 5,000(2,755) we can go out at any time. Those towns with more than 5,000 get 2x 1 hour time slots dependent on age.


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## Slab (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And continue to improve.

New infections drop even further to less than 1,200.
New deaths up by 13 to 281 but less than 300 for the second day running.

Tomorrow sees us outside our gate for exercise, but only up to 1km from our gate and we can go together. Believe me, this is a massive plus for us. And as the population of the village is less than 5,000(2,755) we can go out at any time. Those towns with more than 5,000 get 2x 1 hour time slots dependent on age.
		
Click to expand...

It hasn’t been quick but looking like the more severe lockdown's finally starting to pay off for Spain 

We’ll hear in a couple of hours what the big update is for here re our 43 day curfew. While we don't have the resource for extensive random testing incredibly we’ve now only got _nine _active patients in hospitals & only 29 people left in quarantine centres who so far haven't tested positive, so unless there’s a pile of ill people staying at home or the variant here’s doesn’t make people as ill, I’m really hoping for positive news re our confinement later today…


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## drdel (May 1, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't know the answer to that question but I will be doing everything in my power to support them as soon as it is safe to do so.




Just don't tell Mrs Colch. 

Click to expand...

Do you think they might have a marketing campaign - Buy One get one free. or even two for the price of one


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## Mudball (May 1, 2020)

I went to our local Boots phamacy.   an orderly queue outside, guy comes with a clipboard, takes names and then disappears into the shop.   Emerges about 20 mins later with the meds?.   

Why does it take 3 pharmacist 20 mins to pick an prescription, look it up in the tray, print a label, stick it on the meds, put it in an envelop and hand it over?    Genuine question.. any pharmacist who can explain.  I am not talking about some complex thing, but simple hayfever or thyroid or some other off the peg med


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## Hobbit (May 1, 2020)

Today, the 4,000 bed temporary hospital in Madrid closed its doors after 40 days of use.


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## hovis (May 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Or the alternative version.
Stay Home
Keep Quiet
Save the Government

Very strange how the folk on here who vigorously attacked Scots Independence supporters when they pointed out the flaws and bias in BBC reporting seem to have totally flip flopped on their views that the BBC were to be trusted to be totally impartial.
What has changed.
.
		
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Mudball said:



			I went to our local Boots phamacy.   an orderly queue outside, guy comes with a clipboard, takes names and then disappears into the shop.   Emerges about 20 mins later with the meds?.  

Why does it take 3 pharmacist 20 mins to pick an prescription, look it up in the tray, print a label, stick it on the meds, put it in an envelop and hand it over?    Genuine question.. any pharmacist who can explain.  I am not talking about some complex thing, but simple hayfever or thyroid or some other off the peg med
		
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don't get me started. I've walked into a pharmacy with a prescription for some steroid cream.  she said "it'll be ready in about 20 mins"??????.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I went to our local Boots phamacy.   an orderly queue outside, guy comes with a clipboard, takes names and then disappears into the shop.   Emerges about 20 mins later with the meds?.  

Why does it take 3 pharmacist 20 mins to pick an prescription, look it up in the tray, print a label, stick it on the meds, put it in an envelop and hand it over?    Genuine question.. any pharmacist who can explain.  I am not talking about some complex thing, but simple hayfever or thyroid or some other off the peg med
		
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We have developed a community scheme where a lot of the repeat prescriptions are picked up every evening by street volunteers and delivered. Keeping the que down to 3-4 people


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## Mudball (May 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			don't get me started. I've walked into a pharmacy with a prescription for some steroid cream.  she said "it'll be ready in about 20 mins"??????.
		
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Did you offer to share some of the steroids to help move faster?


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## rosecott (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We have developed a community scheme where a lot of the repeat prescriptions are picked up every evening by street volunteers and delivered. Keeping the que down to 3-4 people
		
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Our surgery has its own pharmacy and now delivers repeat prescriptions to the over 70s.


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## User20204 (May 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Today, the 4,000 bed temporary hospital in Madrid closed its doors after 40 days of use.

Click to expand...

Was it ever filled ?


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## SocketRocket (May 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I went to our local Boots phamacy.   an orderly queue outside, guy comes with a clipboard, takes names and then disappears into the shop.   Emerges about 20 mins later with the meds?.  

Why does it take 3 pharmacist 20 mins to pick an prescription, look it up in the tray, print a label, stick it on the meds, put it in an envelop and hand it over?    Genuine question.. any pharmacist who can explain.  I am not talking about some complex thing, but simple hayfever or thyroid or some other off the peg med
		
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When I've done this previously there is often a hold up while the duty pharmacist checks the medication, I think many of the staff are assistants and the medication has to be verified.


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## Mudball (May 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			When I've done this previously there is often a hold up while the duty pharmacist checks the medication, I think many of the staff are assistants and the medication has to be verified.
		
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Fair enough.... In my case, the guy emerged from his den to tell me ...  'your prescription is not here yet'...  so i walked 10 paces to the attached surgery, picked up the prescription and walked back and then waited another 20 mins.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Fair enough.... In my case, the guy emerged from his den to tell me ...  'your prescription is not here yet'...  so i walked 10 paces to the attached surgery, picked up the prescription and walked back and then waited another 20 mins.
		
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Sleepy N Devon does it all electronically including a text tèlling you it's ready


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## Swinglowandslow (May 1, 2020)

hovis said:



			guidance
		
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hovis said:



			don't get me started. I've walked into a pharmacy with a prescription for some steroid cream.  she said "it'll be ready in about 20 mins"??????.
		
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I have repeat prescriptions. Order by telephone and a week later pick it up.
When I do, the plastic bag with the drugs in it is hanging up,in alphabetical,order, and the girl goes to them and picks out mine.Brings it to me ,I identify myself and she hands it over.
This one time , I ring up beforehand,- "yes it's done" .   So I go in about lunchtime.
She can't give it to me, because the pharmacist is at lunch.
The bloody things hanging there having been prepared and approved, but, no, I have o come back later.
Grrrr

Edit.  To be fair to the girls, the regulations do require the pharmacist to be on site when drugs given over. But it seems a silly regulation if the package has been prepared and signed off by the chemist and then racked for collection.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2020)

Somebody's had enough:

"Police and Somerset County Council have agreed the B3135 through Cheddar Gorge is to close from 6pm tonight to 8am on Monday amid safety concerns and increasing breaches of coronavirus restrictions.

Car enthusiasts are using the relatively quiet roads and the gorge continues to act as an attractive destination. Last weekend saw demand and activity in Cheddar at levels we'd expect during the peak tourist season with people travelling large distances to visit, with people found driving there to eat takeaways and others visiting from more than 60 miles away.The closure order bans all motor traffic, including motorbikes. 

We are taking the action to keep the local community safe and prevent non-essential travel. 

For full details, click here: http://ow.ly/PeeG50zubg6"


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## User20204 (May 1, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Somebody's had enough:
		
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Quite a considerable proportion of the population I'd suggest.


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## pendodave (May 1, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Quite a considerable proportion of the population I'd suggest.
		
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Although obviously not the demographic that old skiers highlighted, I would imagine that anyone who is currently not working (already laid off or furloughed with the sword of Damocles dangling over them) will definitely be itching to get back to earning money.
It's very easy for those who have kept their jobs, or those with safe retirement incomes, to cheer on the lockdown. While lucky enough to be reasonably secure myself, I am far more worried about my young adult children and their friends and colleagues than I am about my own generation (or my parents).


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## User20204 (May 1, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Although obviously not the demographic that old skiers highlighted, I would imagine that anyone who is currently not working (already laid off or furloughed with the sword of Damocles dangling over them) will definitely be itching to get back to earning money.
It's very easy for those who have kept their jobs, or those with safe retirement incomes, to cheer on the lockdown. While lucky enough to be reasonably secure myself, I am far more worried about my young adult children and their friends and colleagues than I am about my own generation (or my parents).
		
Click to expand...


I'm self employed, I haven't earned a penny in over six weeks now. The expression squeaky bum time is coming for some, myself included, the government must know this and they need to start the wheels of industry sooner than later cause no amount of hiding is going to get rid of this virus. 

We've done as asked, stay home, protect the NHS, save lives, well other lives may now be starting to be at stake, then what ?


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## Fish (May 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			When I've done this previously there is often a hold up while the duty pharmacist checks the medication, I think many of the staff are assistants and the medication has to be verified.
		
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Every pharmacy obviously has a pharmacist and a qualified dispenser, it’s the dispenser that inputs the prescription to see if you’re already on system, if you are, then they pick the product/s, label them etc, obviously they maybe getting other orders together when you come in, which they must finish first, once the dispenser has completed the prescription the pharmacist then has to check it before releasing the item/s to you.

With no queue of products as your prescription is handed over, it’s 10mins max, any longer and you should change pharmacy.

A busy pharmacy can have loads of trays to do for local care homes, if there in the middle of a tray, again they must complete it first.

Basic staff cannot dispense.


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## andycap (May 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But aren't you getting compensated by the government, 80% of your previous earnings?
		
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yes , it seems we are , but it wont be until June that we get something , for many that is a long time away


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## fundy (May 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But aren't you getting compensated by the government, 80% of your previous earnings?
		
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plenty of self employed falling outside the govt scheme sadly, not to mention still waiting for any funds


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## User20204 (May 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But aren't you getting compensated by the government, 80% of your previous earnings?
		
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23rd of March til, lets say mid June, how does one get to mid June from 23rd March without earning a penny, prey tell.


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## pendodave (May 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But aren't you getting compensated by the government, 80% of your previous earnings?
		
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And when that finishes and the economy is dust with millions unemployed, what then????


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## pauljames87 (May 1, 2020)

fundy said:



			plenty of self employed falling outside the govt scheme sadly, not to mention still waiting for any funds
		
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And the 80% is £2500 limit aswell.. that might be a lot less than 80% for some. 



HappyHacker1 said:



			23rd of March til, lets say mid June, how does one get to mid June from 23rd March without earning a penny, prey tell.
		
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As not self employed it was a question I had and I mean no offence by this, with your tax return paused for a few months can't you use your tax money to see you through until the gov money kicks in?


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## fundy (May 1, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			And the 80% is £2500 limit aswell.. that might be a lot less than 80% for some. 



As not self employed it was a question I had and I mean no offence by this, with your tax return paused for a few months can't you use your tax money to see you through until the gov money kicks in?
		
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its a lot more than the 0% some are getting!!!


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## User20204 (May 1, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			As not self employed it was a question I had and I mean no offence by this, with your tax return paused for a few months can't you use your tax money to see you through until the gov money kicks in?
		
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My tax return isn't required until January 31st 2021, my returns were submitted on time January 31st 2020 along with what I was required to pay.


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## Imurg (May 1, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			And the 80% is £2500 limit aswell.. that might be a lot less than 80% for some.



As not self employed it was a question I had and I mean no offence by this, with your tax return paused for a few months can't you use your tax money to see you through until the gov money kicks in?
		
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I siphon away"X" amount every month so that come Jan 31st I dont have to find a lump sum to pay the bill.
With January not long gone, anyone who does this wont have built up a very big pot yet...I certainly haven't.


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## Lump (May 1, 2020)

Proper wobble today. 
Been a hard, stressful, draining week at work. Walked 15k in 4hrs each night, might not seem much but try doing that on ballast carrying about 40kg worth of equipment on your back. 
Got 2hrs sleep before getting up early afternoon in a really grumpy short fused irritated kinda mood. 
Tried to chill out with a bit of Xbox and my head popped off. A £160 controller and a £150 headset smashed to pieces...
Arse!!! That’ll teach me. Expensive afternoon re-buying.


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## pendodave (May 1, 2020)

Lump said:



			Proper wobble today. 
Been a hard, stressful, draining week at work. Walked 15k in 4hrs each night, might not seem much but try doing that on ballast carrying about 40kg worth of equipment on your back. 
Got 2hrs sleep before getting up early afternoon in a really grumpy short fused irritated kinda mood. 
Tried to chill out with a bit of Xbox and my head popped off. A £160 controller and a £150 headset smashed to pieces...
Arse!!! That’ll teach me. Expensive afternoon re-buying.
		
Click to expand...

Take care. Shift work can be a dark place. We all rely on you lot getting it right. Many thanks.


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## pauljames87 (May 1, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			My tax return isn't required until January 31st 2021, my returns were submitted on time January 31st 2020 along with what I was required to pay.
		
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Ah ok, thanks I wasn't sure about the dates as I don't do tax returns. Thanks for clearing that up


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## User20204 (May 1, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Ah ok, thanks I wasn't sure about the dates as I don't do tax returns. Thanks for clearing that up
		
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Some can pay their dues split July/January, so your point of tax is, for some, accurate, not myself.


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## ColchesterFC (May 1, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Some can pay their dues split July/January, so your point of tax is, for some, accurate, not myself.
		
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Yep. Paid my first instalment of my personal tax on 31st Jan, next one due on 31st July. My corporation tax is due on 30th June. I'm fortunate that I won't need to defer any payments and can make them when they are due but I realise that there are going to be many that are not in that position.


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## hovis (May 1, 2020)

Lump said:



			Tried to chill out with a bit of Xbox and my head popped off. A £160 controller and a £150 headset smashed to pieces...
Arse!!! That’ll teach me. Expensive afternoon re-buying.
		
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you was playing modern warfare then!!!!! 😀


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## Slab (May 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			It hasn’t been quick but looking like the more severe lockdown's finally starting to pay off for Spain 

We’ll hear in a couple of hours what the big update is for here re our 43 day curfew. While we don't have the resource for extensive random testing incredibly we’ve now only got _nine _active patients in hospitals & only 29 people left in quarantine centres who so far haven't tested positive, so unless there’s a pile of ill people staying at home or the variant here’s doesn’t make people as ill, I’m really hoping for positive news re our confinement later today…
		
Click to expand...

Well I was floored to hear the PM announce a further month of being locked up! 
It really does not tally with the published numbers (just 7 people now being treated in the country and no new cases in recent days) 

I am really struggling to see the justification to impose such severe curfew measures for another month

A small crumb is If I can get a special permit it'll let me reopen the office with one third staff from mid-May


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## Fish (May 2, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			My tax return isn't required until January 31st 2021, my returns were submitted on time January 31st 2020 along with what I was required to pay.
		
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Are you VAT registered.


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## IainP (May 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			Well I was floored to hear the PM announce a further month of being locked up!
It really does not tally with the published numbers (just 7 people now being treated in the country and no new cases in recent days)

I am really struggling to see the justification to impose such severe curfew measures for another month

A small crumb is If I can get a special permit it'll let me reopen the office with one third staff from mid-May
		
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Wasn't expecting that either. Might it somehow be related to potential risks from outside the Island. Although you'd think that could still be managed with lifting the curfew.


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## hovis (May 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			Well I was floored to hear the PM announce a further month of being locked up!
It really does not tally with the published numbers (just 7 people now being treated in the country and no new cases in recent days)

I am really struggling to see the justification to impose such severe curfew measures for another month

A small crumb is If I can get a special permit it'll let me reopen the office with one third staff from mid-May
		
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you'll be laughing when you come out ontop of this when we spend the summer in and out of lockdown 😏


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## Slab (May 2, 2020)

IainP said:



			Wasn't expecting that either. Might it somehow be related to potential risks from outside the Island. Although you'd think that could still be managed with lifting the curfew.
		
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Nah all port and airport borders have been closed for some time and will continue to stay closed long after they eventually let us out of our homes

I've been on board with all the measures so far but I'm not hearing any good reason we can't begin to come out of our severe curfew and start to phase lift confinement from this Monday


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## Slab (May 2, 2020)

hovis said:



			you'll be laughing when you come out ontop of this when we spend the summer in and out of lockdown 😏
		
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At this rate the UK will be fully back to work before we're even allowed all staff to return
Still no permitted exercise or unauthorised reason to be outside

Edit removed as it charged the post content


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## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2020)

A Chris Cairns cartoon once again reflecting the mood of the nation. 
I managed to get my mum into a care home days before lockdown, our family were relieved that she would be in a safe place.
A week later they were confined to their rooms and all group activity stopped.
She is not well and I am really concerned for her health, she really does not fully understand what is happening with Covid19.
Difficult phone calls every day, she now thinks she would have been fine in her own home.
That is not the case, but it is what she thinks.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/img446.jpg


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A Chris Cairns cartoon once again reflecting the mood of the nation. 
I managed to get my mum into a care home days before lockdown, our family were relieved that she would be in a safe place.
A week later they were confined to their rooms and all group activity stopped.
She is not well and I am really concerned for her health, she really does not fully understand what is happening with Covid19.
Difficult phone calls every day, she now thinks she would have been fine in her own home.
That is not the case, but it is what she thinks.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/img446.jpg

Click to expand...

Ouch Doon, that cartoon spears the heart. Good luck and best wishes for a speedy outcome For you all.


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## pokerjoke (May 2, 2020)

Have Spain made a mistake?
Seeing the news today was like watching the London marathon.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 2, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Have Spain made a mistake?
Seeing the news today was like watching the London marathon.
		
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Is it not human nature after being cooped up for so long? Was the error making the lockdown so strict for so long? 

It would be interesting to hear the behavioural psychologists view on this.


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## pokerjoke (May 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it not human nature after being cooped up for so long? Was the error making the lockdown so strict for so long?

It would be interesting to hear the behavioural psychologists view on this.
		
Click to expand...

Or wether it resurfaces


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Have Spain made a mistake?
Seeing the news today was like watching the London marathon.
		
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I think we've seen maybe half a dozen people walk past the house. HID was in the village this morning, and there was queueing to get into the corner shop and farmacia. A few more about but not here.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 2, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Or wether it resurfaces
		
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I get that but perhaps it was almost inevitable that distancing would struggle 1st day in major population areas. The restrictions have been so tight, it's pressure cooker stuff. Ours have been quite liberal in comparison.


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## pokerjoke (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think we've seen maybe half a dozen people walk past the house. HID was in the village this morning, and there was queueing to get into the corner shop and farmacia. A few more about but not here.
		
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Watch the news Bri it was mental.
I suspect your out in the sticks?


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## pokerjoke (May 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get that but perhaps it was almost inevitable that distancing would struggle 1st day in major population areas. The restrictions have been so tight, it's pressure cooker stuff. Ours have been quite liberal in comparison.
		
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True
I just hope  after all their hard work it doesn’t comeback to haunt them.
I suspect our government will be watching closely.


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## User20204 (May 2, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			True
I just hope  after all their hard work it doesn’t comeback to haunt them.
I suspect our government will be watching closely.
		
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It is inevitable the virus will spike in numbers, it's not going anywhere.


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## MegaSteve (May 2, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			And, in serious need of IT support which will likely have to wait for lockdown to end...
		
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Well, what had been a good day became a grandstand day... A visit from a couple of my grandsons saw my IT issues resolved... Proper distancing being maintained ruling out any hugs 😞... But, just great to see them for real 👍👍...

Best news though was for herself... Being advised that there had been no cases of covid in the care home her mum is resident... When mum is about 12 thousand miles away that's probably the best news possible...


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## Old Skier (May 2, 2020)




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## Doon frae Troon (May 2, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ouch Doon, that cartoon spears the heart. Good luck and best wishes for a speedy outcome For you all.
		
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Thanks, I don't often shed a tear but I did when I saw that.
Three months of pent up anxiety caught up with me.
To be honest the outcome does not look to great


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## Hobbit (May 2, 2020)

Mojacar Playa this morning


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## User20204 (May 2, 2020)

I drove down the A9 this morning from Pitlochry to Dunkeld and seen only 4 other vehicles, in either direction.


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## Fish (May 2, 2020)

Well I hope it’s quite on the roads tomorrow, I’ve got 59 tests to collect from NHS staff who are self isolating at home around Nottinghamshire. 

Strict collection, handling & scanning procedures at point of collection before returning them all to Birmingham. 

Bit scary knowing I could be collecting from people who will have it, but as long as I follow the safety guidelines, I’ll be ok 🤔


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## Backache (May 2, 2020)

Fish said:



			Well I hope it’s quite on the roads tomorrow, I’ve got 59 tests to collect from NHS staff who are self isolating at home around Nottinghamshire. 

Strict collection, handling & scanning procedures at point of collection before returning them all to Birmingham. 

Bit scary knowing I could be collecting from people who will have it, but as long as I follow the safety guidelines, I’ll be ok 🤔
		
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Good luck and best wishes with your work.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 3, 2020)

This is off the BBC website - if it is really a true story then you really have to despair at the mentality of some people 

_"We had been reading about a meteor shower that was meant to be really spectacular on Wednesday night. So around 11.30pm I piled into the car with my mum, dad and younger brother. We had a telescope and binoculars.   The idea was to drive about four or five miles out of the city to get a better view of the sky at midnight.

We were less than 500m from our house and a police car pulled out. It had been stationary and parked at the side of the road. It followed us and its lights came on. Then a second police car arrived with lights, sirens, the whole works.   They asked what we were doing and were perfectly polite. They said this was an unnecessary journey and we had to go home. My dad told them this was our daily exercise but they were not having it.

I can understand their argument but to deny us the right to exercise seems overzealous. It starts to become a night curfew and that's not what the regulations are about.   For example if I was an essential worker and wanted to go for a late-night run, then what's to stop me doing that? They were saying we should exercise in a local space but the lockdown rules say you are allowed to drive a short distance to exercise.

I did complain to the police in writing afterwards. They replied saying our travel was non-essential but I still don't think we broke the rules."_

The father who tried to claim that all four of them going out in a car at midnight was their daily exercise


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## Billysboots (May 3, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			This is off the BBC website - if it is really a true story then you really have to despair at the mentality of some people

_"We had been reading about a meteor shower that was meant to be really spectacular on Wednesday night. So around 11.30pm I piled into the car with my mum, dad and younger brother. We had a telescope and binoculars.   The idea was to drive about four or five miles out of the city to get a better view of the sky at midnight._

_We were less than 500m from our house and a police car pulled out. It had been stationary and parked at the side of the road. It followed us and its lights came on. Then a second police car arrived with lights, sirens, the whole works.   They asked what we were doing and were perfectly polite. They said this was an unnecessary journey and we had to go home. My dad told them this was our daily exercise but they were not having it._

_I can understand their argument but to deny us the right to exercise seems overzealous. It starts to become a night curfew and that's not what the regulations are about.   For example if I was an essential worker and wanted to go for a late-night run, then what's to stop me doing that? They were saying we should exercise in a local space but the lockdown rules say you are allowed to drive a short distance to exercise._

_I did complain to the police in writing afterwards. They replied saying our travel was non-essential but I still don't think we broke the rules."_

The father who tried to claim that all four of them going out in a car at midnight was their daily exercise
		
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I just took a look at that article and the one about the lad going to have a haircut was the one which ground my gears. The excuse was that the family didn’t have any hair clippers.

Erm, never heard of eBay?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 3, 2020)

The roundhouse at Loch Doon is in lock doon so if you want to see the Ospreys don't go to Loch Doon because of lock doon.
Pictures are on the Roundhouse face book page.


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## larmen (May 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I just took a look at that article and the one about the lad going to have a haircut was the one which ground my gears. The excuse was that the family didn’t have any hair clippers.
		
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We don't have any hair clipper, but after this is over I just join a rock band as a roady.
What really shocked me is that there is an underground network of hair dressers.

Our American neighbour suggested a flowby but as I know of this I pass. But I wouldn't be surprised by Dyson release one shortly.


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I just took a look at that article and the one about the lad going to have a haircut was the one which ground my gears. The excuse was that the family didn’t have any hair clippers.

Erm, never heard of eBay?
		
Click to expand...

More like wanting his 15 min of fame, should be named shamed fined and made to give the information on this "hairdressers underground " IMO.


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

Just had a Skype call with one of our bestest friend. She’s a sister in ITU in one of the London hospitals.

Lets just say the number of losses are hurting her... and can I have a big swear!


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just had a Skype call with one of our bestest friend. She’s a sister in ITU in one of the London hospitals.

Lets just say the number of losses are hurting her... and can I have a big swear!
		
Click to expand...



What's ITU ?? 

I know what ICU and HDU are but not ITU


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## Imurg (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			What's ITU ??

I know what ICU and HDU are but not ITU
		
Click to expand...

Intensive Therapy Unit
Google is your friend unless you want someone else to do your work for you..


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			What's ITU ??

I know what ICU and HDU are but not ITU
		
Click to expand...

ITU = ICU. I guess it all depends which hospital you first came across it.

One that threw me was NICU. I was used to SCBU. Neonatal Intensive Care Unit = Special Care Baby Unit.


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## User20204 (May 3, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Intensive Therapy Unit
Google is your friend unless you want someone else to do your work for you..
		
Click to expand...

It was a simple question with a simple answer, I didn't ask for links to prove the case, which is something quite different.


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## larmen (May 3, 2020)

Apparently the Swiss pharma concern Roche has developed a test which proves if you ever had Corona. It is supposed to be licensed on Monday (not sure if Switzerland or world wide or EU).
100% accuracy (5 1/2 thousand samples) of the people that had it, 0.2% false positives.

Of course, they won't test all 6 billion people immediately, but over time I hope that 1st everyone can be tested who is on the front lines, and then everyone.
It's not quite a vaccine, but I think it is a good step to some normality.


Edit: Just reading it again, it's a word wide roll out with 10s of millions of test available each months.


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## Hobbit (May 3, 2020)

Maybe its a weekend reporting thing, although previous Saturday numbers, unlike the Sunday numbers, usually show a continued trend rather than a dip.

Yesterday's numbers for Spain;

I'm loathe to say only xxx, it should never be only...… 164 deaths registered to Covid. This last week has seen numbers in the 200's for the first time since whenever, and now one in the 100's.


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## USER1999 (May 3, 2020)

larmen said:



			Apparently the Swiss pharma concern Roche has developed a test which proves if you ever had Corona. It is supposed to be licensed on Monday (not sure if Switzerland or world wide or EU).
100% accuracy (5 1/2 thousand samples) of the people that had it, 0.2% false positives.

Of course, they won't test all 6 billion people immediately, but over time I hope that 1st everyone can be tested who is on the front lines, and then everyone.
It's not quite a vaccine, but I think it is a good step to some normality.


Edit: Just reading it again, it's a word wide roll out with 10s of millions of test available each months.
		
Click to expand...

Only really useful if they find that people who have had it have immunity for a while. If they don't, it's pointless, and a waste of money.


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## larmen (May 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Only really useful if they find that people who have had it have immunity for a while. If they don't, it's pointless, and a waste of money.
		
Click to expand...

Of course. But so far all people with a 2nd infection were in South Korea only which makes me think that the testing they do might not be accurate. Everywhere else there hasn’t been any reinfection.


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## AmandaJR (May 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Only really useful if they find that people who have had it have immunity for a while. If they don't, it's pointless, and a waste of money.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. It's too early to know but to come out of this we really need both a vaccine, and to know what immunity and for how long having the disease provides.


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## Imurg (May 3, 2020)

larmen said:



			Of course. But so far all people with a 2nd infection were in South Korea only which makes me think that the testing they do might not be accurate. Everywhere else there hasn’t been any reinfection.
		
Click to expand...

I think I read that those 2nd positives were false positives due to dead lung tissue....
General consensus now is that there is immunity for a period of time...how long is another matter


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## Swinglowandslow (May 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Only really useful if they find that people who have had it have immunity for a while. If they don't, it's pointless, and a waste of money.
		
Click to expand...

Somewhere , I read recently that the reports from China that some had been infected a second time, were not accurate. iOW it seems optimistic that immunity does last for quite some while.
So, this could be good news.


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## ColchesterFC (May 3, 2020)

larmen said:



			Of course. But so far all people with a 2nd infection were in South Korea only which makes me think that the testing they do might not be accurate. Everywhere else there hasn’t been any reinfection.
		
Click to expand...

There was a story on BBC News that they were false positives. Something to do with damaged lung tissue causing a positive test when they were actually negative.


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## Jacko_G (May 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was a story on BBC News that they were false positives. Something to do with damaged lung tissue causing a positive test when they were actually negative.
		
Click to expand...

Correct


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## Billysboots (May 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was a story on BBC News that they were false positives. Something to do with damaged lung tissue causing a positive test when they were actually negative.
		
Click to expand...

It was reported a day or so ago on the Sky News app - scientists confirm you cannot be reinfected, and that the “reinfections” in South Korea were false positives.

I don’t think the story was widely reported elsewhere, and certainly not by the BBC, because it is a good news story. They don’t like positivity, the BBC.........


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## ColchesterFC (May 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			It was reported a day or so ago on the Sky News app - scientists confirm you cannot be reinfected, and that the “reinfections” in South Korea were false positives.

I don’t think the story was widely reported elsewhere, and certainly not by the BBC, because it is a good news story. They don’t like positivity, the BBC.........
		
Click to expand...




It was reported today as part of their live text updates and is still one of the summary headlines on that page but let's not let the facts get in the way of your obvious dislike of the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52519440


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2020)

For some light relief


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## Billysboots (May 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



View attachment 30425

It was reported today as part of their live text updates and is still one of the summary headlines on that page but let's not let the facts get in the way of your obvious dislike of the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52519440

Click to expand...

Get out of bed the wrong side? 

I saw the article a day or so ago. Please accept my heartfelt apologies for not catching it on every news platform, at least 24 hours after it was first reported elsewhere.

Strewth.


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## Fish (May 3, 2020)

Fish said:



			Well I hope it’s quite on the roads tomorrow, I’ve got 59 tests to collect from NHS staff who are self isolating at home around Nottinghamshire.

Strict collection, handling & scanning procedures at point of collection before returning them all to Birmingham.

Bit scary knowing I could be collecting from people who will have it, but as long as I follow the safety guidelines, I’ll be ok 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Well it was quiet on the roads, but I’ve told them I’m not doing it again out of that Birmingham Royal Mail depot as they’re shooting from the hip. 

There’s no man-management of procedures in place, and if there are, they’re not communicated well enough, you just fumble your way through the day, working out the app as you go along, then finding missing numbers off the manifests, and all sorts of issues that become very time consuming. 

Then couple that with knocking Joe Bloggs door and find they’re still in bed, haven’t got the tests ready, haven’t got the right number as they’ve messed some up, it’s a nightmare!

But I still smashed it inside 8hrs, and that’s with an hour travelling each end to start & finish in Nottingham Before unloading back in Birmingham, covering over 200 miles. 

Apparently they used City Sprint first which was an epic fail, but I’ve worked bloody hard today, then had some jobsworth ring me up after I’d left saying I’d left the sack of 60 tests with the wrong person, how would I bloody know, I just got back and was met by an employee who took them off me, they’ve no firm procedures to follow, no verbal instruction or written guidance, so I’ve told them I won’t be back, unless they bring other depots on board, as Birmingham is a shambles. 

I’m busy enough without having to risk my health to help an unorganized shambles like that and then get vented at! 

Rant over......,


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## Dando (May 3, 2020)

The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.


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## Fish (May 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Apart from that, how was your day?
		
Click to expand...

Not even one sexy nightie, they all looked like Waynetta Slob, dribbling from every orifice 😳


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## AmandaJR (May 3, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
Click to expand...

So sorry to hear that. Wish I could offer some advice...let's hope some easing of restrictions soon will help.


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## Stuart_C (May 3, 2020)

Fish said:



			Not even one sexy nightie, they all looked like Waynetta Slob, dribbling from every orifice 😳
		
Click to expand...

That’s your usual type isn’t it Fishy 😊😊


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## AmandaJR (May 3, 2020)

Fish said:



			Not even one sexy nightie, they all looked like Waynetta Slob, dribbling from every orifice 😳
		
Click to expand...

Dribbling corona from every orifice (possibly)...you need danger money!


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## Fish (May 3, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			That’s your usual type isn’t it Fishy 😊😊
		
Click to expand...

I’ve had worse 😳


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## fundy (May 3, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
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sorry to hear, do you have some strategies you can use/focus on? try and look after yourself as much as you can


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## Imurg (May 3, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
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Make sure you get out for a walk J....even half an hour.. Clear that head..


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 3, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear this, make sure you speak to your loved ones and try get a bit of fresh air everyday.


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## Stuart_C (May 3, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
Click to expand...

Dandy dear boy, if you want to talk I’m only at the other of the phone/Skype/whatsapp etc mate. I’ll probably bore you to sleep and you won’t get much of a word in but the Offer stand.

Keep yer chin up and try and stay positive mate👍🏻


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## Swinglowandslow (May 3, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Agreed. It's too early to know but to come out of this we really need both a vaccine, and to know what immunity and for how long having the disease provides.
		
Click to expand...

Could be, however, another little glimmer of hope is that Chelsea and a Westminster hospitals are doing trials with already licensed medicines that will, hopefully, drastically lessen the effects of the virus so that it isn't as dangerous as it presently is.
Doesn't stop you getting it, but doesn't kill like now.
If they work, it will help us out of lockdown big time.


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## SocketRocket (May 3, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
Click to expand...

The best thing is to talk it through with someone, the old proverb of a problem shared is a problem halved.  If you want someone to talk to there are lots here. We dont know each other but if you would like to talk anything through then please PM me for my details.  Dont keep it to your self.


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## Slime (May 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*The best thing is to talk it through with someone*, the old proverb of a problem shared is a problem halved.  *If you want someone to talk to there are lots here.* We dont know each other but if you would like to talk anything through then please *PM me for my details.*  Dont keep it to your self.
		
Click to expand...


The same as above.
Depression ................................. been there, done that.
It IS beatable, hang in there.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 4, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
Click to expand...

Contact your GP, the councillors are all working from home and from what I have been told they are underused.
Take care, you are not alone.


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## Slab (May 4, 2020)

Tough weekend getting used to the news we face another month of curfew here. A few drinks and a nice cigar got me through Saturday and a chat with friends online helped yesterday (_'misery loves company'_ an all that)


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## Lord Tyrion (May 4, 2020)

For those worrying how will we ever return to normal again, how will people move around etc. This is a picture taken last week by someone I know out in Shenzhen. It will happen, we will be doing the same shortly (no, I wont define shortly ). We will get past the 2m fixation we currently have, although it was there and is there now for good reason.


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## MegaSteve (May 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



View attachment 30429
View attachment 30430

For those worrying how will we ever return to normal again, how will people move around etc. This is a picture taken last week by someone I know out in Shenzhen. It will happen, we will be doing the same shortly (no, I wont define shortly ). We will get past the 2m fixation we currently have, although it was there and is there now for good reason.
		
Click to expand...

Probably sufficient indication as to why we'll not be using public transport anytime soon... Think we'll be waiting for a vaccine to be available before we resume use of our bus passes...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

Reading an article in the ST yesterday by Matthew Syed musing that _Life is for Living, Not Existing_

His view as that so much of what we are doing now, and will have to do in the coming years - is all about staying healthy - existing - and that that is not what _living _is about.

As I am at a point in life when I could consider 'hanging up my boots' - I reflect on that and seriously ponder whether my work stress is worth it.  And feeling quite low about things given my wife's scare of last two weeks and our circumstances - circumstances that have highlighted that we do actually only have so much time.

And so as Syed suggests we have to consider what risk we must accept in our life.  Because so much of what we do in normal life does include an element of risk - we just managed it - either personally or with the help of the state.

..so here I am - another week of what will be stressy work - and you know - I could simply be spending it sitting with my Mrs.  And is that not something they say about having a life partner - just someone you can sit with, saying and doing nothing with each other, other than just being with.

And so even in this time of lockdown I feel that I should be spending more time just 'being with' my wife - not stressing and being irritable because of work, and when lockdown is relaxed and we can do things - even limited things - then we should just take the risk, manage it - and get on with living - not simply existing.


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## Hobbit (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reading an article in the ST yesterday by Matthew Syed musing that _Life is for Living, Not Existing_

His view as that so much of what we are doing now, and will have to do in the coming years - is all about staying healthy - existing - and that that is not what _living _is about.

As I am at a point in life when I could consider 'hanging up my boots' - I reflect on that and seriously ponder whether my work stress is worth it.  And feeling quite low about things given my wife's scare of last two weeks and our circumstances - circumstances that have highlighted that we do actually only have so much time.

And so as Syed suggests we have to consider what risk we must accept in our life.  Because so much of what we do in normal life does include an element of risk - we just managed it - either personally or with the help of the state.

..so here I am - another week of what will be stressy work - and you know - I could simply be spending it sitting with my Mrs.  And is that not something they say about having a life partner - just someone you can sit with, saying and doing nothing with each other, other than just being with.

And so even in this time of lockdown I feel that I should be spending more time just 'being with' my wife - not stressing and being irritable because of work, and when lockdown is relaxed and we can do things - even limited things - then we should just take the risk, manage it - and get on with living - not simply existing.
		
Click to expand...

Its a tough one Hugh. I had a similar conversation with HID few days back. Making a raw assumption of 3 score years and 10 I have 8 years left, plus a few months. How much of the New Normal do I want? How much of the New Normal would be comfortable? But its not just about the risk we are willing to accept. If we are selfish and do the wrongs things its not just us we are risking.

At the end of the day do we live to the limit of any new regulations or do we accept we're the wrong side of 60 and take a few extra precautions? No doubt we'll all come to our own decisions on that one.


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## 3offTheTee (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reading an article in the ST yesterday by Matthew Syed musing that _Life is for Living, Not Existing_

His view as that so much of what we are doing now, and will have to do in the coming years - is all about staying healthy - existing - and that that is not what _living _is about.

As I am at a point in life when I could consider 'hanging up my boots' - I reflect on that and seriously ponder whether my work stress is worth it.  And feeling quite low about things given my wife's scare of last two weeks and our circumstances - circumstances that have highlighted that we do actually only have so much time.

And so as Syed suggests we have to consider what risk we must accept in our life.  Because so much of what we do in normal life does include an element of risk - we just managed it - either personally or with the help of the state.

..so here I am - another week of what will be stressy work - and you know - I could simply be spending it sitting with my Mrs.  And is that not something they say about having a life partner - just someone you can sit with, saying and doing nothing with each other, other than just being with.

And so even in this time of lockdown I feel that I should be spending more time just 'being with' my wife - not stressing and being irritable because of work, and when lockdown is relaxed and we can do things - even limited things - then we should just take the risk, manage it - and get on with living - not simply existing.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear of your potential problems
What is your line of work SILH? Realise you have your son in Sheffield which has causEd you worry in the past re finances etc and Mrs SILH health. MIL and brother also.

For want it is worth if your own circumstances are such with projected pensions, mortgage, earnings and you can afford to have quality time with your loved ones make the most of it NOW and leave. 

Whilst a huge decision, prioritising is essential in life and none of us know what is round the corner.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one Hugh. I had a similar conversation with HID few days back. Making a raw assumption of 3 score years and 10 I have 8 years left, plus a few months. How much of the New Normal do I want? How much of the New Normal would be comfortable? But its not just about the risk we are willing to accept. If we are selfish and do the wrongs things its not just us we are risking.

At the end of the day do we live to the limit of any new regulations or do we accept we're the wrong side of 60 and take a few extra precautions? No doubt we'll all come to our own decisions on that one.
		
Click to expand...

Your words are spot on.  It's not going to be 'just about us'.  Though we try to live our lives with consideration to and of others - the Common Weal, we will have to accept a new social responsibility pact - a pact that will impact upon what we do in ways that we never previously had to consider.  But so be it.  we are very much better equipped than many to be able to do that and to live a full life within new constraints.

And I didn't spot - though it is pretty obvious on reflection - that we must be 'ages' with each other as I'm an August 58 baby


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Sorry to hear of your potential problems
What is your line of work SILH? Realise you have your son in Sheffield which has causEd you worry in the past re finances etc and Mrs SILH health. MIL and brother also.

For want it is worth if your own circumstances are such with projected pensions, mortgage, earnings and you can afford to have quality time with your loved ones make the most of it NOW and leave.

Whilst a huge decision, prioritising is essential in life and none of us know what is round the corner.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
		
Click to expand...

Many thanks 3offTheTee - I am a PM running projects putting new networks into some large London hospitals...stressy at the moment.

We are very fortunate in that we have been able to sort our month-to-month finances - so no mortgage, overdraft or credit cards - and a couple of loans (car and home improvement) that we'll clear immediately I finish work using the 25% tax free when I move my company pension fund.  We rearranged our finances to minimise our outgoing 18months ago to enable me to take 6months unpaid leave for us to go travelling for four months down under and SE Asia this time last year. And thank the Lord that we did that.   So yes - I very much get your exhortation - do the big things whilst you can...so, so very true,  It's the big next step...the big decision...

My wife's NHS pension basically covers our monthly house outgoings.  It's then simply how much I pull down from my shrunken pension pot for spending.  But as concerned as I might be about that, I am frankly not too worried in the bigger picture, as we have a bit of savings sufficient to cover maybe 18months spending (on top of bills) without my touching my pension pot - giving it a bit of time to do something of a recovery.

And so we will probably wait until my next birthday in August then we'll make the call...

If I can wait that 3 and half months


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reading an article in the ST yesterday by Matthew Syed musing that _Life is for Living, Not Existing_

His view as that so much of what we are doing now, and will have to do in the coming years - is all about staying healthy - existing - and that that is not what _living _is about.

As I am at a point in life when I could consider 'hanging up my boots' - I reflect on that and seriously ponder whether my work stress is worth it.  And feeling quite low about things given my wife's scare of last two weeks and our circumstances - circumstances that have highlighted that we do actually only have so much time.

And so as Syed suggests we have to consider what risk we must accept in our life.  Because so much of what we do in normal life does include an element of risk - we just managed it - either personally or with the help of the state.

..so here I am - another week of what will be stressy work - and you know - I could simply be spending it sitting with my Mrs.  And is that not something they say about having a life partner - just someone you can sit with, saying and doing nothing with each other, other than just being with.

And so even in this time of lockdown I feel that I should be spending more time just 'being with' my wife - not stressing and being irritable because of work, and when lockdown is relaxed and we can do things - even limited things - then we should just take the risk, manage it - and get on with living - not simply existing.
		
Click to expand...

There is a middle way you could consider. You may find after a period of enjoying life free from the stresses work can bring that you start to miss the interaction with people. Maybe consider some part time work, you could consider a charity or even something like the National trust or even a golf club.


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## Hobbit (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your words are spot on.  It's not going to be 'just about us'.  Though we try to live our lives with consideration to and of others - the Common Weal, we will have to accept a new social responsibility pact - a pact that will impact upon what we do in ways that we never previously had to consider.  But so be it.  we are very much better equipped than many to be able to do that and to live a full life within new constraints.

And I didn't spot - though it is pretty obvious on reflection - that we must be 'ages' with each other as I'm an August 58 baby 

Click to expand...

You're an old man next to me H - end of Oct '58 for me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There is a middle way you could consider. You may find after a period of enjoying life free from the stresses work can bring that you start to miss the interaction with people. Maybe consider some part time work, you could consider a charity or even something like the National trust or even a golf club.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - charities are going to be looking to change the way they work and might need a wee bit of PM support...or I just do two days a week working in my church cafe...

As far as social interaction is concerned,  I am fortunate in that I have my golf club and church - and friends in both - though all are in their context and not outside of them   And once we can travel I have a very large and close extended family of cousins and other relatives living in many beautiful locations across Scotland (from Tiree to Torridon; from Orkney to Wick and the Black Isle; then down to Aberdeen and Deeside - I am very fortunate.   That all upside aside - I am actually a fairly solitary person - quite happy in my own company for as long as.  So - I find myself as happy playing golf on my own as playing with others, sometimes happier 

I am also thinking that as schools look to see how they teach in the year or so following a return - they may be looking to engage individuals who can teach - or at least convey - the basics of subjects not requiring highly specialised skillsets. So I could not (immediately) teach physics, chemistry - or even Maths - but I am sure that I could teach the basic information of much History or Geography as these are both subjects that I have always enjoyed and have a great interest in,  supporting the actual teachers of these subjects in the context of a different way of organising their teaching and assessing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You're an old man next to me H - end of Oct '58 for me.
		
Click to expand...

It was an excellent year...


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - charities are going to be looking to change the way they work and might need a wee bit of PM support...or I just do two days a week working in my church cafe...

As far as social interaction is concerned,  I am fortunate in that I have my golf club and church - and friends in both - though all are in their context and not outside of them   And once we can travel I have a very large and close extended family of cousins and other relatives living in many beautiful locations across Scotland (from Tiree to Torridon; from Orkney to Wick and the Black Isle; then down to Aberdeen and Deeside - I am very fortunate.   That all upside aside - I am actually a fairly solitary person - quite happy in my own company for as long as.  So - I find myself as happy playing golf on my own as playing with others, sometimes happier 

I am also thinking that as schools look to see how they teach in the year or so following a return - they may be looking to engage individuals who can teach - or at least convey - the basics of subjects not requiring highly specialised skillsets. So I could not (immediately) teach physics, chemistry - or even Maths - but I am sure that I could teach the basic information of much History or Geography as these are both subjects that I have always enjoyed and have a great interest in,  supporting the actual teachers of these subjects in the context of a different way of organising their teaching and assessing.
		
Click to expand...

Teaching teenagers sounds a bit stressful to me, personally I prefer something less intense where you can meet people but not have to manage them. But, whatever floats your boat I guess.


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## SocketRocket (May 4, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
Click to expand...

How are you feeling buddy. Hope you're a bit better


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Teaching teenagers sounds a bit stressful to me, personally I prefer something less intense where you can meet people but not have to manage them. But, whatever floats your boat I guess.
		
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I think I could cope teaching secondary if I didn't have to do the assessment and marking side  ...almost like a classroom assistant working with the teacher - and sometimes taking the class to take the load off the teacher if - say - classes have to be split in two for social distancing reasons - thereby doubling the teaching load.  Alternatively maybe simply being available for students who need some support and/or questions answered when the teacher may be busy teaching the other half of the class. 

Me and Mrs were musing over how secondary schools will be able to deliver teaching, when we out on our walk yesterday, and we couldn't see past schools having to get additional resource in to enable teachers to cope with 2x or even 3x the number of classes, and such as teaching on Saturdays etc.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - charities are going to be looking to change the way they work and might need a wee bit of PM support...or I just do two days a week working in my church cafe...

As far as social interaction is concerned,  I am fortunate in that I have my golf club and church - and friends in both - though all are in their context and not outside of them   And once we can travel I have a very large and close extended family of cousins and other relatives living in many beautiful locations across Scotland (from Tiree to Torridon; from Orkney to Wick and the Black Isle; then down to Aberdeen and Deeside - I am very fortunate.   That all upside aside - I am actually a fairly solitary person - quite happy in my own company for as long as.  So - I find myself as happy playing golf on my own as playing with others, sometimes happier 

I am also thinking that as schools look to see how they teach in the year or so following a return - they may be looking to engage individuals who can teach - or at least convey - the basics of subjects not requiring highly specialised skillsets. So I could not (immediately) teach physics, chemistry - or even Maths - but I am sure that I could teach the basic information of much History or Geography as these are both subjects that I have always enjoyed and have a great interest in,  supporting the actual teachers of these subjects in the context of a different way of organising their teaching and assessing.
		
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Yes, as SR says, if you want to get less stress in your life, teaching teenagers is not a good idea! .  As one who has been retired a while, it is a truism( though logic says it shouldn't be ) that when you are retired,you never have enough time to do things😁.
You may be surprised that you won't have time for all , some, or most of your ideas.
Whatever you do, enjoy your retirement. Remember the adage about your hand in a bucket of water and what happens when you take it out.
No one is indispensable.


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## Fish (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was an excellent year...

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I think Aug 59 trumped it 😜


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			I think Aug 59 trumped it 😜
		
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59 is an odd number


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, as SR says, if you want to get less stress in your life, teaching teenagers is not a good idea! .  As one who has been retired a while, it is a truism( though logic says it shouldn't be ) that when you are retired,you never have enough time to do things😁.
You may be surprised that you won't have time for all , some, or most of your ideas.
Whatever you do, enjoy your retirement. Remember the adage about your hand in a bucket of water and what happens when you take it out.
No one is indispensable.
		
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To be honest - I think I am in the group who will find plenty to fill my time - and though as happy as I am being the solitary chap - if I need something out there, I know I can do a few hours a day a couple of times a week in our church cafe...and I have loads of lovely places to visit with free accommodation in Scotland...including Islay - now what could I find to do in Islay while staying in my brother's house


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2020)

Good news that the Nightingale in London has been downgraded to "Stand By"


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## pauljames87 (May 4, 2020)

Coming back from nights this morning the roads the other way were back to normal levels ..

Parents had their daily bike ride today went through park they said was packed 

Sounds like people can't afford to stay at home and the ones who can have either got bored or need to just get out to stop themsleves going mental


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## chrisd (May 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one Hugh. I had a similar conversation with HID few days back. Making a raw assumption of 3 score years and 10 I have 8 years left, plus a few months. How much of the New Normal do I want? How much of the New Normal would be comfortable? But its not just about the risk we are willing to accept. If we are selfish and do the wrongs things its not just us we are risking.

At the end of the day do we live to the limit of any new regulations or do we accept we're the wrong side of 60 and take a few extra precautions? No doubt we'll all come to our own decisions on that one.
		
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Please Brian, I'm a few years older than you and SILH I'd hate to think I'm going through this just for 2.5 years left! Anyway I still feel much younger and I'm not gonna go till I've spent a fair bit of my pension 😀


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## chrisd (May 4, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
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Maybe just another week or 10 days and things will be easier. Look after yourself James


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## MegaSteve (May 4, 2020)

Two years into retirement and apart from the first six months the rest has been sh1t... Mostly due to a self inflicted injury but just as I was in a position to resume participation in life... Covid arrived... Like others I've struggled with getting my head around coping strategies... Need a vaccine PDQ... Not sure any further extended period of confinement is within my ability to deal with...


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## Hobbit (May 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Please Brian, I'm a few years older than you and SILH I'd hate to think I'm going through this just for 2.5 years left! Anyway I still feel much younger and I'm not gonna go till I've spent a fair bit of my pension 😀
		
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What!!? You’re not even 70 yet?


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## JamesR (May 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			Not even one sexy nightie, they all looked like Waynetta Slob, dribbling from every orifice 😳
		
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Bad luck, Nottingham is renowned for have the best women to men ratio in the country and for having many absolute stunners


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## Wolf (May 4, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Bad luck, Nottingham is renowned for have the best women to men ratio in the country and for having many absolute stunners
		
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I must have been to the wrong bars in Nottingham then 🤔

Newcastle I've always found the ratios more favourable and a little more shall we say less inhibited 😉


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## chrisd (May 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What!!? You’re not even 70 yet?

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You'll pay a price for that Brian 😤😤


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## Wolf (May 4, 2020)

Dando said:



			The lockdown and working from home is taking its toll and I’m struggling  with my depression.
Can’t get to my caravan either to escape from things.
		
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Alright bud, how's it going today. 
Fancy a chat, a virtual beer or even someone to insult as though you're at work I'm always happy to oblige. 👍🏻


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## Hobbit (May 4, 2020)

There was a discussion in here last week about masks, should you shouldn’t you.

Spain: masks are compulsory on public transport. They are also compulsory for retailers that are public facing, and for employees who don’t work alone. Everyone else is recommended to wear them.

How do we get masks? We have received two deliveries in the last couple of weeks from the Town Hall, and we get our next delivery this week - how does a poor country like Spain achieve that. Every single house, apartment etc.

And the streets and walls have been sprayed with a strong disinfectant at least once a week, every week for the last 8 weeks.


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## Billysboots (May 4, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good news that the Nightingale in London has been downgraded to "Stand By"
		
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There are a lot of good news out there now.

Aside from the progress being made in Italy, Spain and France, I hear there’s now an antibody rest, 99.8% accurate, which is hopefully going to be rolled out. 

And an antibody has been identified which prevents coronavirus infection, which will presumably assist in vaccine/treatment development work.

Although, yet again, you have to hunt for these stories, which do not appear to be getting universal coverage. You would think the press/media would be all over these positives like a cheap suit.


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## Papas1982 (May 4, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			There are a lot of good news out there now.

Aside from the progress being made in Italy, Spain and France, I hear there’s now an antibody rest, 99.8% accurate, which is hopefully going to be rolled out.

And an antibody has been identified which prevents coronavirus infection, which will presumably assist in vaccine/treatment development work.

Although, yet again, you have to hunt for these stories, which do not appear to be getting universal coverage. *You would think the press/media would be all over these positives like a cheap suit.*

Click to expand...

That's simply not how we (humans), work. Random irritations v gladden the heart is approx 5:1.

I agree it should be spread, but not really surprised.


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## MegaSteve (May 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There was a discussion in here last week about masks, should you shouldn’t you.

Spain: masks are compulsory on public transport. They are also compulsory for retailers that are public facing, and for employees who don’t work alone. Everyone else is recommended to wear them.

How do we get masks? We have received two deliveries in the last couple of weeks from the Town Hall, and we get our next delivery this week - how does a poor country like Spain achieve that. Every single house, apartment etc.

And the streets and walls have been sprayed with a strong disinfectant at least once a week, every week for the last 8 weeks.
		
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Are 'homemade' masks considered acceptable? I use multi-hued patterned snoods... Herself has a selection of cloth/linen off-cuts she's intending to make into masks...


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## larmen (May 4, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			There are a lot of good news out there now.

Aside from the progress being made in Italy, Spain and France, I hear there’s now an antibody rest, 99.8% accurate, which is hopefully going to be rolled out.
		
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It’s front page news in Germany where they also do their daily briefings earlier.
It’s the Monday after announcing it, let Boris rake the glory for it this evening and then it will be plastered over the news here as well.

Or look at some Swiss news pages, Roche is planning on exporting 10s of million test a month.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good news that the Nightingale in London has been downgraded to "Stand By"
		
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Our friend who is a senior ICU/ITU nurse in The Nightingale mentioned this to us last night - they were down to 16 patients - all seriously ill - but only 16.  She referred to the place as being put into hibernation, and the other great news from her was that there is now 'plenty' of ITU/ICU bed headroom across the London hospitals.   But she also said they are planning for a July spike.   The big plus side of where London is, is that in preparing for that spike she now has the time to do proper training of the nurses and others of the team who will be looking after Covid-19 patients - the training she has been giving to date was more of the 'how to not kill the patient' variety.  She is fabulous - but she does not in any way consider herself a hero.  As far as she is concerned she's doing the job she has spent more than 35yrs yrs in the NHS getting trained and ready for.


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## larmen (May 4, 2020)

Hoepefully with some medication showing some effect the spike will be less dangerous than originally anticipated.

Do we have multiple sources for malaria medication being in some way effective now?
I am not giving much on what Trump says, but I think there was a test somewhere in Europe looking promising, shortening the recovery time of severe ill people by half a week?


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## Swinglowandslow (May 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our friend who is a senior ICU/ITU nurse in The Nightingale mentioned this to us last night - they were down to 16 patients - all seriously ill - but only 16.  She referred to the place as being put into hibernation, and the other great news from her was that there is now 'plenty' of ITU/ICU bed headroom across the London hospitals.   But she also said they are planning for a July spike.   The big plus side of where London is, is that in preparing for that spike she now has the time to do proper training of the nurses and others of the team who will be looking after Covid-19 patients - the training she has been giving to date was more of the 'how to not kill the patient' variety.  She is fabulous - but she does not in any way consider herself a hero.  As far as she is concerned she's doing the job she has spent more than 35yrs yrs in the NHS getting trained and ready for.
		
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She's a hero. None of those Drs and nurses were expected, either by themselves or by the Country, to be at risk from a deadly infection because they are treating people who are ill.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			I think Aug 59 trumped it 😜
		
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Hard paper round


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## Beezerk (May 4, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Bad luck, Nottingham is renowned for have the best women to men ratio in the country and for having many absolute stunners
		
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Wasn't that an urban myth from the 80s and 90s?
Toon is full of hen and stag do's in the summer, it's great 😜


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## Hobbit (May 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Are 'homemade' masks considered acceptable? I use multi-hued patterned snoods... Herself has a selection of cloth/linen off-cuts she's intending to make into masks...
		
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Home made will act as a barrier. It all depends on the quality of the material. Think of it this way you are stood naked facing a guys who is also facing you naked. He pee's, and you get a very wet leg. If you're wearing trousers, your leg will sooner or later feel wet. If you're both wearing trousers, he gets a wet leg, and you might get a bit of moisture vapour if you'd been next to him for a good long while.

If you're wearing a basic surgical mask/home made jobbie you have some protection - it won't give you lots of hours. If you're wearing a full-on NBC suit with its own closed-loop air supply the only thing you need fear is last night's curry.


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## MegaSteve (May 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Home made will act as a barrier. It all depends on the quality of the material. Think of it this way you are stood naked facing a guys who is also facing you naked. He pee's, and you get a very wet leg. If you're wearing trousers, your leg will sooner or later feel wet. If you're both wearing trousers, he gets a wet leg, and you might get a bit of moisture vapour if you'd been next to him for a good long while.

If you're wearing a basic surgical mask/home made jobbie you have some protection - it won't give you lots of hours. If you're wearing a full-on NBC suit with its own closed-loop air supply the only thing you need fear is last night's curry.
		
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I've still got some of my PPE about from my working days... Think a full face respirator mask might, apart from being uncomfortable, be a tad bit overkill... With local shops selling masks at fifty pee a pop it could get a bit expensive changing them on a sufficiently regular basis...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			She's a hero. None of those Drs and nurses were expected, either by themselves or by the Country, to be at risk from a deadly infection because they are treating people who are ill.
		
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In our little group of six couples being bestest friends, the other five are all very proud of her and her hubby - a senior paramedic - and their daughter - a physio who has found herself working in the Covid-19 ITU of UCL.

Then again - all the girls in the group are the closest of friends having met way, way back then when they started their nursing training 40yrs ago and have stuck with nursing in the NHS through good times and bad.  Four are still working - three in the NHS - but they will finish in a couple or few years - and two only very recently retired.  They and their kind are the pride and bedrock of the NHS - I do worry somewhat that in a few years time they will all have retired - at least from full-time work.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 4, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Wasn't that an urban myth from the 80s and 90s?
Toon is full of hen and stag do's in the summer, it's great 😜
		
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I reckon that rumour was started by the university in Nottingham to encourage applications. It certainly piqued the interest of my era, the one you quoted, and based on the grades you needed back then to get in there it worked pretty well. I'm not half glad I wasn't bright enough to get in there and so ended up in Newcastle instead 🍻🍸🍻🕺😁


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## Slime (May 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I've still got some of my PPE about from my working days... Think a full face respirator mask might, apart from being uncomfortable, be a tad bit overkill... With local shops selling masks at fifty pee a pop it could get a bit expensive changing them on a sufficiently regular basis...
		
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Caught this guy wandering down my road last weekend.
Now that's some cool PPE!


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## larmen (May 4, 2020)

I always wonder why I haven’t seen anyone in a Vader mask at Tesco yet.


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## chrisd (May 4, 2020)

larmen said:



			I always wonder why I haven’t seen anyone in a Vader mask at Tesco yet.
		
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Simple - they shop in Waitrose 👍👍


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## IanM (May 4, 2020)

My 81 year old mum had major emotional melt down today from being confined to barracks.  My sister visited and sat in front garden with her, but wasn't easy, She is too disabled to walk far on her own, and she's feeling the strain.  Hope this calmed her down and I am due to ring a bit later... me being over 2 hours away doesn't help.   It's really tough on her, but really important to keep her away from getting it.

56 year old on our programme team went off sick today, no voice, coughing and a temperature.  Odds on it is C-19 - really worried about her.  

We might be past the (first) peak, but there's a long way to go yet,


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## fundy (May 4, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Wasn't that an urban myth from the 80s and 90s?
Toon is full of hen and stag do's in the summer, it's great 😜
		
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was no urban myth in the early 90s lol, was at uni at Loughborough which was the the opposite (engineering and sport dominant college as it was at the time), we headed to Nottingham most weeks


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## MegaSteve (May 4, 2020)

Slime said:



			Caught this guy wandering down my road last weekend.
Now that's some cool PPE!






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Across the yard from my last workplace was the Star Wars building if I'd known what was coming down the line I'd have tried to have got myself kitted out...


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## GB72 (May 4, 2020)

fundy said:



			was no urban myth in the early 90s lol, was at uni at Loughborough which was the the opposite (engineering and sport dominant college as it was at the time), we headed to Nottingham most weeks 

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Hell you were joined at down the road. I was at Leicester in the early 90s. Was over at Loughborough a lot losing badly at rugby


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## fundy (May 4, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Hell you were joined at down the road. I was at Leicester in the early 90s. Was over at Loughborough a lot losing badly at rugby
		
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was at Loughborough 91-95  Rugby standard was stupidly high, will never forget fresher trials till the day I die lol. 

We only came down to Leicester to play golf, had my first hole in one at Oadby in the middle of the racetrack


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## GB72 (May 4, 2020)

fundy said:



			was at Loughborough 91-95  Rugby standard was stupidly high, will never forget fresher trials till the day I die lol.

We only came down to Leicester to play golf, had my first hole in one at Oadby in the middle of the racetrack 

Click to expand...

I was at Leicester 91-95. Those were the days when Loughborough gave you an offer of 2 e grades if you played international level sport at school. Got hammered every time I played there. Did not play golf back then, only rugby.


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## fundy (May 4, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I was at Leicester 91-95. Those were the days when Loughborough gave you an offer of 2 e grades if you played international level sport at school. Got hammered every time I played there. Did not play golf back then, only rugby.
		
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The 2 Es was just for show too lol sadly they wanted 3 Bs from me!

My introduction to rugby at Loughborough was losing a couple of ribs to an aspiring youngster who went on to play for England!

Was lots of stories of the better sports guys being excused their first and second year exams scores


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## drdel (May 4, 2020)

fundy said:



			was at Loughborough 91-95  Rugby standard was stupidly high, will never forget fresher trials till the day I die lol.

We only came down to Leicester to play golf, had my first hole in one at Oadby in the middle of the racetrack 

Click to expand...

Was in the team in 60s. Back then the Uni was engineering and the college was sports. Best grudge matches were between the jocks and us engineers. 

The road to Nottingham in the hunt for females was a popular route.


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## GB72 (May 4, 2020)

fundy said:



			The 2 Es was just for show too lol sadly they wanted 3 Bs from me!

My introduction to rugby at Loughborough was losing a couple of ribs to an aspiring youngster who went on to play for England!

Was lots of stories of the better sports guys being excused their first and second year exams scores
		
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Sure I remember Freshers could not go straight into the first team. Hence a few bad days in the front row for me playing second team UAU matches against international standard props. The good old days when Tigers sent the new kid down to present our end if season awards, a certain Martin Johnson


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## fundy (May 4, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Sure I remember Freshers could not go straight into the first team. Hence a few bad days in the front row for me playing second team UAU matches against international standard props. The good old days when Tigers sent the new kid down to present our end if season awards, a certain Martin Johnson
		
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Freshers definitely played in the first team at Lboro, a few of them turned up 3 weeks before the start of their first term for training ahead of the season (not that theyd been hand picked for their rugby not academic abilities  )


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## upsidedown (May 4, 2020)

Fish said:



			I think Aug 59 trumped it 😜
		
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Nah July 59 is proper vintage


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2020)

IanM said:



			M

We might be past the (first) peak, but there's a long way to go yet,
		
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Do you think we'll get another spike, either next weekend being a bank holiday and lockdown restraints due to be relaxed, or once we start getting people back to work and open the schools? If so what then? Back into lockdown and social distancing


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Do you think we'll get another spike, either next weekend being a bank holiday and lockdown restraints due to be relaxed, or once we start getting people back to work and open the schools? If so what then? Back into lockdown and social distancing
		
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Not sure they will be issuing get out of jail free cards by next weekend.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure they will be issuing get out of jail free cards by next weekend.
		
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No but do you not think there will be a section (perhaps more than there has been) thinking we're there now and go early on family get togethers and going out and about?


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## GB72 (May 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure they will be issuing get out of jail free cards by next weekend.
		
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Not sure that the announcement about the lockdown review us until Sunday so guess not. Then again, it is Boris talking in Sunday so guessing some relaxation and the start of track and trace if it works on the Isle of Wight


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure that the announcement about the lockdown review us until Sunday so guess not. Then again, it is Boris talking in Sunday so guessing some relaxation and the start of track and trace if it works on the Isle of Wight
		
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Review update supposed to be Thursday but I think your right and won't hear anything firm untill his speech on Sunday.


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## GB72 (May 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Review update supposed to be Thursday but I think your right and won't hear anything firm untill his speech on Sunday.
		
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Wasn't it a few days late last time. Due on Monday/Tuesday but held until Thursday to make any comment


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Wasn't it a few days late last time. Due on Monday/Tuesday but held until Thursday to make any comment
		
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All days running into each other but I think it was always supposed to be a Thursday from the date set in Parliament and every three weeks.


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## Billysboots (May 4, 2020)

fundy said:



			was at Loughborough 91-95  Rugby standard was stupidly high, will never forget fresher trials till the day I die lol.

We only came down to Leicester to play golf, had my first hole in one at Oadby in the middle of the racetrack 

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Played my first ever round at Oadby.


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## Beezerk (May 4, 2020)

One customer started back today, albeit with skeleton staff but our machines are in production and will need looking after. I've heard two more customers local to me are opening up on the 11th.
Looks like this extended holiday may soon be coming to an end for me.


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## IainP (May 4, 2020)

Went to the supermarket at what has been a typical quiet time and it was at least 3 times as busy. Whether just bad luck, or people generally feeling less at risk. Definitely seemed to be more people just buying a few items rather than a "big shop"


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## HomerJSimpson (May 4, 2020)

Definitely more cars on the road at 6.30 this morning and again after work at 3.00pm. HID went to get some basics for her parents and she said more people in supermarket and no heed of social distancing at all


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## fundy (May 4, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Played my first ever round at Oadby.
		
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not the greatest of courses but fond memories lol, pretty sure its gone now hasnt it


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## MegaSteve (May 5, 2020)

Anybody risked B&Q yet? I could do with getting some peashingle but not sure I want the hassle/risk...


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## Billysboots (May 5, 2020)

fundy said:



			not the greatest of courses but fond memories lol, pretty sure its gone now hasnt it
		
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It was a bit of a state. Only played a handful of rounds there over many years, taking a junior membership nearby once I was hooked. 

One of my less fond memories was that first round. I rocked up at 7am one Sunday morning with a mate and, with a lengthy queue waiting at the 1st tee, I opted for safety and pulled out a 7 iron. I promptly hit my first of many career shermans onto the practice green.

The course shut during austerity but the parkland nine holes has been bought by a local pro and re-opened along with a fantastic range which is ranked in the top three nationwide. Google the Leicester Golf Centre and take a look.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 5, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Played my first ever round at Oadby.
		
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Oadby Golf Course!

A waste of good grass. Unimaginative design and shocking conditions.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 5, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Anybody risked B&Q yet? I could do with getting some peashingle but not sure I want the hassle/risk...
		
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Went to the one in Aylesbury the other day

Decent protocols in place, queue, you must have a trolley which is wiped before they give it to you, hand sanitizer available.

Strict 1 way system around the store.
1 aisle for queueing for tills, you push the trolley to the till and step back. Till operator comes round , scans the items , then steps back, you come forward to pay
Card only. 

About as good as you can get


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## Billysboots (May 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Oadby Golf Course!

A waste of good grass. Unimaginative design and shocking conditions.
		
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Especially the loop in the middle of the racecourse - a dull, uninspiring slog as I recall.

My last visit there was 20-odd years ago when wet weather had forced my club to shut. I paid my green fee, murdered one down the middle of the 1st and never found it. They clearly hadn’t been able to get the mowers out in the wet and the fairway itself was covered in grass 2” long.

I turned straight round, went back in the pro shop and demanded the return of my green fee.


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## Slab (May 5, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Anybody risked B&Q yet? *I could do with getting some peashingle but not sure I want the hassle/risk..*.
		
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Just make sure you've got a decent membrane down and you should be fine


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## Slime (May 5, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Anybody risked B&Q yet? I could do with getting some peashingle but not sure I want the hassle/risk...
		
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Get it delivered?


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## MegaSteve (May 5, 2020)

Slime said:



			Get it delivered?
		
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TBH I wasn't aware that they were still doing deliveries... Only need three or four bags... Did contact a local builders merchants but they advised they were currently only supplying their trade account holders...


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## pokerjoke (May 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Definitely more cars on the road at 6.30 this morning and again after work at 3.00pm. HID went to get some basics for her parents and she said more people in supermarket and no heed of social distancing at all
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps they were up early to get basics like your wife?
Judging others when you don’t know the circumstances is just plain wrong imo.
Surprised about supermarket because ours has been superb.
Yes they have let people roam more now but 99% of people are still aware of the 2m rule.


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## pokerjoke (May 5, 2020)

IainP said:



			Went to the supermarket at what has been a typical quiet time and it was at least 3 times as busy. Whether just bad luck, or people generally feeling less at risk. Definitely seemed to be more people just buying a few items rather than a "big shop"
		
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Bad luck I’d say
I went to do a big shop yesterday £165 compared to our usual £90-£100 and it was dead


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## Imurg (May 5, 2020)

pokerjoke said:



			Bad luck I’d say
I went to do a big shop yesterday £165 compared to our usual £90-£100 and it was dead
		
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It definitely depends on what time you go and that can vary between shops in the same town and between towns too.
I've been doing our big shop on a Monday morning. Shop opens at 8,  I get there at 7.45 and the queue is about 20-30 long.
We ran short of a few things late last week so I went Saturday morning.
Expecting it to be busier I got then10 minutes earlier than normal and was about the same distance from the door. By 8am the queue was 400 yards long...
Go to our closest Tesco at 11.30ish or 1.30ish and I can walk straight in
Go to it at 10.30 or 2.30 and you're queuing 
They are keeping an eye on the numbers in the shop but people and staff are still misusing the 1 way system and SD is, well, let's say Underused and sometimes nearly impossible


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## Billysboots (May 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It definitely depends on what time you go and that can vary between shops in the same town and between towns too.
I've been doing our big shop on a Monday morning. Shop opens at 8,  I get there at 7.45 and the queue is about 20-30 long.
We ran short of a few things late last week so I went Saturday morning.
Expecting it to be busier I got then10 minutes earlier than normal and was about the same distance from the door. By 8am the queue was 400 yards long...
Go to our closest Tesco at 11.30ish or 1.30ish and I can walk straight in
Go to it at 10.30 or 2.30 and you're queuing
They are keeping an eye on the numbers in the shop but people and staff are still misusing the 1 way system and SD is, well, let's say Underused and sometimes nearly impossible
		
Click to expand...

It does very much seem to depend not only on the shop, but the staff running that shop - we have seen significant variations in the same chain of stores.

Fortunately our chosen supermarket is wonderfully run - strict limit on numbers entering, sanitised trollies and baskets, single shoppers only, and social distancing now the norm in store. Add to that regular social media updates re length of queue, any stock shortages and so on. We could not ask for more.

Compare that to one of the big stores a mile or so away, where it is a shambolic free for all. There’s no excuse for it when others have been really creative in their approach.


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## spongebob59 (May 5, 2020)

Take up fishing or golf !

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ready-cast-coronavirus-lockdown-restrictions/


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## Hobbit (May 5, 2020)

Spain, deaths for the last 3 days = 164, 164, 185. First time below 200.

New Infections for the last 3 days = 1533, 1179, 867. And yesterday being the first time below 1,000.


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## IainP (May 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain, deaths for the last 3 days = 164, 164, 185. First time below 200.

New Infections for the last 3 days = 1533, 1179, 867. And yesterday being the first time below 1,000.
		
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That's positive with these being "Tuesday reported" figures


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## garyinderry (May 5, 2020)

Anyone know why there is full plane loads going between london and belfast? 

I thought we were in lockdown.


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## larmen (May 5, 2020)

Bavaria is allowing golf from Monday onwards as they start to reopen.
Also sailing, tennis, athletics.
Basically sports where you are separated from your opponent.


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## MegaSteve (May 5, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Anyone know why there is full plane loads going between london and belfast?

I thought we were in lockdown.
		
Click to expand...

Saw that this morning... Totally puzzling... No apparent distancing or even any attempt to achieve it...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 5, 2020)

Folks across the road from us are having a small rear extension built at the moment.  Chatting to our neighbour she said that the builders were maintaining distancing as best they can.  I watched some concrete blocks and bricks being delivered this morning.    The four guys doing the building stood in a little huddle watching for the 15min duration of the drop-off...hmmm.  I guess they could all be living in the same house...  

We've got some work getting done on the outside of our house from Monday - will take 3-4 weeks.  Builder has said that the team will be able to maintain distancing...we'll keep separate from them in any case - though I must ask that they bring their own portaloo...


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## MegaSteve (May 5, 2020)

Hearing letter post will cease on Saturdays for the foreseeable future... Allowing postie to focus on delivery of parcels/packets...


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## backwoodsman (May 5, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Hearing letter post will cease on Saturdays for the foreseeable future... Allowing postie to focus on delivery of parcels/packets...
		
Click to expand...

Anyone else as cynical as me to think that this is the end of Saturday deliveries, full stop ?


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## Slab (May 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Folks across the road from us are having a small rear extension built at the moment.  Chatting to our neighbour she said that the builders were maintaining distancing as best they can.  I watched some concrete blocks and bricks being delivered this morning.    The four guys doing the building stood in a little huddle watching for the 15min duration of the drop-off...hmmm.  I guess they could all be living in the same house... 

*We've got some work getting done on the outside of our house from Monday - will take 3-4 weeks.  Builder has said that the team will be able to maintain distancing...we'll keep separate from them in any case -* though I must ask that they bring their own portaloo...
		
Click to expand...

I hope it goes smoothly
Just for the sake of asking. Would you be prepared to tell your builders to down tools and go home if you spot them breaking social distancing after you'd reminded them a couple of times?  

I'm not looking to judge, just curiosity


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

Lockdown motivation of absolutely zero this week with regards to working from home. I'm used to working with lots of people face to face every day, I have no issue with isolation or being ay home but working with no input from others or physical activity to work is literally sapping my motivation to work at all.


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## GB72 (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Lockdown motivation of absolutely zero this week with regards to working from home. I'm used to working with lots of people face to face every day, I have no issue with isolation or being ay home but working with no input from others or physical activity to work is literally sapping my motivation to work at all.
		
Click to expand...

I am very much similar. I am all about the routine. Suit on, sat in my office outs my mind in work mode. Having trouble switching to that at home, too easily distracted............ooooh xbox


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## Slab (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Lockdown motivation of absolutely zero this week with regards to working from home. I'm used to working with lots of people face to face every day, I have no issue with isolation or being ay home but working with no input from others or physical activity to work is literally sapping my motivation to work at all.
		
Click to expand...

Cant believe you just said that... *DROP AND GIVE ME 20!*


(seriously, no more replies until you do it )


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## SocketRocket (May 5, 2020)

After listening to some pretty harsh comments & arguing over reopening or completely shutting down for another two weeks, someone in their right mind wrote this. 

Don’t know who wrote it, but it’s spot on.

Perspective:

WE ARE NOT IN THE SAME BOAT ...
I heard that we are all in the same boat, but it's not like that. We are in the same storm, but not in the same boat. Your ship could be shipwrecked and mine might not be. Or vice versa.

For some, quarantine is optimal. A moment of reflection, of re-connection, easy in flip flops, with a cocktail or coffee. For others, this is a desperate financial & family crisis.

For some that live alone they're facing endless loneliness. While for others it is peace, rest & time with their mother, father, sons & daughters.

With the weekly increase in unemployment some are bringing in more money to their households than they were working. Others are working more hours for less money due to pay cuts or loss in sales.

For some not getting on with Family domestic abuse is rife...we never know whwt goes on behind closed doors.

Some were concerned about getting a certain candy for Easter while others were concerned if there would be enough bread, milk and eggs for the weekend.

Some want to go back to work because they don't qualify for unemployment and are running out of money. Others want to kill those who break the quarantine.

Some are home spending 2-3 hours/day helping their child with online schooling while others are spending 2-3 hours/day to educate their children on top of a 10-12 hour workday.

Some have experienced the near death of the virus, some have already lost someone from it and some are not sure if their loved ones are going to make it. Others don't believe this is a big deal.

Some have faith in God and expect miracles during this 2020. Others say the worst is yet to come.

So, friends, we are not in the same boat. We are going through a time when our perceptions and needs are completely different.

Each of us will emerge, in our own way, from this storm. It is very important to see beyond what is seen at first glance. Not just looking, actually seeing.

We are all on different ships during this storm experiencing a very different journey.

Realise that and be kind.


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am very much similar. I am all about the routine. Suit on, sat in my office outs my mind in work mode. Having trouble switching to that at home, too easily distracted............ooooh xbox
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this for me its about routine, usual routine for my old job was up get to gym for 630am train, coffee and then work. In my new role would be a fairly similar routine but working at MOD site. However being told my workload is just enough to get me through a week (realistically I'm dragging out 2 days work over 5days) and fact as long as I do the hours it doesn't matter what time I start or finish I literally have no drive to get up and crack on) plus the distractions like you say.... Ooh look xbox, netflix or literally everything that isn't work 🤷🏻‍♂️



Slab said:



			Cant believe you just said that... *DROP AND GIVE ME 20!*


(seriously, no more replies until you do it )
		
Click to expand...

Ironically Slab that's one area I'm not lacking motivation if anything with boredom I'm training more and is as much a distraction as everything else. I do a circuit in mornings in the garage , and a run or cycle post work. I've even contemplated doing something every hour on the hour to say 40 press Ups, sit ups, pull ups and alternating which hour I do them to stop work boredom. 

I have motivation for everything except work, because working from home to me anyway just isn't work and what I do...


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## pauljames87 (May 5, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Anyone else as cynical as me to think that this is the end of Saturday deliveries, full stop ?
		
Click to expand...

That's what their union has suggested is going on

I believe it's to protect jobs .. but if their going to continue doing parcels I don't see why we need post on a Saturday anyways.. 

Would we miss Saturday post? Maybe 15 years ago but with more than more being done via email..


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## SocketRocket (May 5, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Lockdown motivation of absolutely zero this week with regards to working from home. I'm used to working with lots of people face to face every day, I have no issue with isolation or being ay home but working with no input from others or physical activity to work is literally sapping my motivation to work at all.
		
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Theres a theory called 'Parkinsons Law' that applies to this, it suggests that work expands to fill the time available for its completion.  I think it explains why retired people say they have never been so busy.


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Theres a theory called 'Parkinsons Law' that applies to this, it suggests that work expands to fill the time available for its completion.  I think it explains why retired people say they have never been so busy.
		
Click to expand...

That's exactly the reason I don't have the motivation to do it then. If I worked a normal length day for the amount of work I can physically do from home for my role, I'd be done in under 2 days, with 3 more to fill. So to make that stretch across a full 7.5hr working day 5 days a week, seems utterly pointless and not worth it. Yet I have to be online on work systems for that time to be paid so as a result its at least its more like 3 hrs a day working, 4.5hrs sat here bored and wasted time.


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## IanM (May 5, 2020)

Yep, the "perspective" words above are spot on.  

My mum took ill with an infection (UTI) last night, paramedics said not to take her in to hospital, but get "care-package" in for some overnight supervision.  The local Care Services folk havent rung back in 6 hours, but hope to have got some private folk out to assess situation today.  My sister has been sat there since 5am without a break, I am over 2 hours away and although trying to organise care on the phone, am being not much help at all.  But my stress levels are on high, goodness knows where my sister's are.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 5, 2020)

Dad's in a care home so we have been on tenterhooks for a few weeks since they announced they have Covid-19 in the home. They've been undertaking barrier nursing for those with symptoms and got 5 residents tested which 3 came back as positive early April. Since then they haven't been able to access any testing and my dad started with a temperature 4 days ago. Their initial thought was UTI but the temp hasn't come down with antibiotics and now he's started with a cough. Worrying times to say the least.


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## i*windows (May 5, 2020)

after reading some of the posts, I think I have it pretty easy, been working from home for 9 week, kids remote schooling, wife making masks and remote teaching. staying out of peoples way and out of harms way


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## Robster59 (May 5, 2020)

The wife of a friend of ours and works at a local care home got diagnosed with Covid-19, and it's in the home.  She is in total isolation for at least 7 days and he can't go anywhere for at least 14 days.  Worrying for them and all the old people in the home.  It's the same home we use when we send our Father-in-Law in for respite so thankfully he wasn't in at the time. 
Both my partner and my father-in-law are high risk so we aren't going anywhere but at least I am still working (very busy), on full pay and can ensure they're both kept safe.  
My 96 year old Mum is housebound 200 miles away, my brother keeps an eye on her and she has carers coming around every day.  They all take precautions but the risk is still there. 
And yet I see people happily going around ignoring the guidelines and don't understand the situation we are in.  Or they think that they're invulnerable and never consider that they could be a carrier.
Yes, I would love to play golf but we have to look at the reality of things.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (May 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			After listening to some pretty harsh comments & arguing over reopening or completely shutting down for another two weeks, someone in their right mind wrote this.

Don’t know who wrote it, but it’s spot on.

Perspective:

WE ARE NOT IN THE SAME BOAT ...
I heard that we are all in the same boat, but it's not like that. We are in the same storm, but not in the same boat. Your ship could be shipwrecked and mine might not be. Or vice versa.

For some, quarantine is optimal. A moment of reflection, of re-connection, easy in flip flops, with a cocktail or coffee. For others, this is a desperate financial & family crisis.

For some that live alone they're facing endless loneliness. While for others it is peace, rest & time with their mother, father, sons & daughters.

With the weekly increase in unemployment some are bringing in more money to their households than they were working. Others are working more hours for less money due to pay cuts or loss in sales.

For some not getting on with Family domestic abuse is rife...we never know whwt goes on behind closed doors.

Some were concerned about getting a certain candy for Easter while others were concerned if there would be enough bread, milk and eggs for the weekend.

Some want to go back to work because they don't qualify for unemployment and are running out of money. Others want to kill those who break the quarantine.

Some are home spending 2-3 hours/day helping their child with online schooling while others are spending 2-3 hours/day to educate their children on top of a 10-12 hour workday.

Some have experienced the near death of the virus, some have already lost someone from it and some are not sure if their loved ones are going to make it. Others don't believe this is a big deal.

Some have faith in God and expect miracles during this 2020. Others say the worst is yet to come.

So, friends, we are not in the same boat. We are going through a time when our perceptions and needs are completely different.

Each of us will emerge, in our own way, from this storm. It is very important to see beyond what is seen at first glance. Not just looking, actually seeing.

We are all on different ships during this storm experiencing a very different journey.

Realise that and be kind.
		
Click to expand...

This is one of the best takes on this whole virus lockdown I have seen.
Whoever wrote this - well said.


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## GB72 (May 5, 2020)

I read these posts about how this is affecting people and I feel massively guilty in the way my mind is at the moment. I am still working (part home, part office), I live in a village with access to walks and the countryside and, most significantly at the moment, is that cases of covid are pretty much unheard of where I am, where my family are and where I work as all are based in small, rural villages or market towns. I am struggling with the lockdown at the moment simply because, thank God, covid has not come close to my home, my work or to anyone I know and that makes it difficult. I am an educated bloke, I appreciate the bigger picture, I look in horror at the deaths and the hardship,  but the frustrations of following rules based on something that has no close impact is playing with my head at the moment. I feel incredibly selfish and self centered for feeling this way and that, in itself, gets me down. Don't get me wrong, I follow the rules to the letter, I even mask up in the supermarket but it is really getting to me now but it shouldn't, I should be glad for the minimum impact on me, my family and my close friends.

This post is a bit ranty, very self indulgent and probably worthy of the wrath of those who have been struck by this even in a minor way but the thread is about how corona virus is affecting us and this is where i am at the moment.


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## Imurg (May 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I read these posts about how this is affecting people and I feel massively guilty in the way my mind is at the moment. I am still working (part home, part office), I live in a village with access to walks and the countryside and, most significantly at the moment, is that cases of covid are pretty much unheard of where I am, where my family are and where I work as all are based in small, rural villages or market towns. I am struggling with the lockdown at the moment simply because, thank God, covid has not come close to my home, my work or to anyone I know and that makes it difficult. I am an educated bloke, I appreciate the bigger picture, I look in horror at the deaths and the hardship,  but the frustrations of following rules based on something that has no close impact is playing with my head at the moment. I feel incredibly selfish and self centered for feeling this way and that, in itself, gets me down. Don't get me wrong, I follow the rules to the letter, I even mask up in the supermarket but it is really getting to me now but it shouldn't, I should be glad for the minimum impact on me, my family and my close friends.

This post is a bit ranty, very self indulgent and probably worthy of the wrath of those who have been struck by this even in a minor way but the thread is about how corona virus is affecting us and this is where i am at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

I think a lot of people feel exactly the same.
Bad as they are, it's easy to start treating the numbers as, simply, numbers.
If you haven't been touched by loss then it is hard to comprehend it all.
I'm pretty much feeling the same way.
And it gets harder every day and harder still as we hope some respite from lockdown is on the horizon.
Good post Greg


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I read these posts about how this is affecting people and I feel massively guilty in the way my mind is at the moment. I am still working (part home, part office), I live in a village with access to walks and the countryside and, most significantly at the moment, is that cases of covid are pretty much unheard of where I am, where my family are and where I work as all are based in small, rural villages or market towns. I am struggling with the lockdown at the moment simply because, thank God, covid has not come close to my home, my work or to anyone I know and that makes it difficult. I am an educated bloke, I appreciate the bigger picture, I look in horror at the deaths and the hardship,  but the frustrations of following rules based on something that has no close impact is playing with my head at the moment. I feel incredibly selfish and self centered for feeling this way and that, in itself, gets me down. Don't get me wrong, I follow the rules to the letter, I even mask up in the supermarket but it is really getting to me now but it shouldn't, I should be glad for the minimum impact on me, my family and my close friends.

This post is a bit ranty, very self indulgent and probably worthy of the wrath of those who have been struck by this even in a minor way but the thread is about how corona virus is affecting us and this is where i am at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

I think you've nailed a lot of what many of us are feeling. Like you am lucky to live rural so I have no immediate dangers and can go off on a run for miles if i go out the back way and come across nothing but fields. But I have zero work motivation, haven't seen my kids in person since lockdown began because their mum is high risk and they have a new baby brother so it's not fair to ferry them back and forth just incase of infection. Yes I see them on video most days but it's just not the same. This week its really started to get to me and I just want to go to work properly and get out and aee my kids, visit my mum & dad.

But I've not been hit by tragedy so I also feel selfish for feeling that way.


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## SocketRocket (May 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I think a lot of people feel exactly the same.
Bad as they are, it's easy to start treating the numbers as, simply, numbers.
If you haven't been touched by loss then it is hard to comprehend it all.
I'm pretty much feeling the same way.
And it gets harder every day and harder still as we hope some respite from lockdown is on the horizon.
Good post Greg

Click to expand...

When considering the number of UK deaths it crossed my mind that I live in a medium sized town and the number of deaths are around the same as our local population.   Puts it in context.


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## Fish (May 5, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Anybody risked B&Q yet? I could do with getting some peashingle but not sure I want the hassle/risk...
		
Click to expand...

Lots of key worker drivers are black balling them, plus a few other large similar companies who refuse to let us use their toilet facilities when we deliver into them!

Some of us have been on the road for hours, getting goods to them so they can still trade, then they treat us like this, these companies need naming & shaming nationally whilst the public is supporting key workers, let’s expose those companies & service stations that have shut their facilities to commercial drivers, or are the public shallow and will still go, because they’re cheap!!


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## Slime (May 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Lots of key worker drivers are black balling them, plus a few other large similar companies who refuse to let us use their toilet facilities when we deliver into them!

Some of us have been on the road for hours, getting goods to them so they can still trade, then they treat us like this, *these companies need naming & shaming* nationally whilst the public is supporting key workers, let’s expose those companies & service stations that have shut their facilities to commercial drivers, or are the public shallow and will still go, because they’re cheap!!
		
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I totally agree, that's utterly unacceptable. I'm assuming all public toilets are currently closed.
Which companies can you name and shame?
How about this .......................... if you have a delivery, ask to use their facilities before unloading.
If they say no, just drive to your next delivery without unloading. Would that work?


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## MegaSteve (May 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Lots of key worker drivers are black balling them, plus a few other large similar companies who refuse to let us use their toilet facilities when we deliver into them!

Some of us have been on the road for hours, getting goods to them so they can still trade, then they treat us like this, these companies need naming & shaming nationally whilst the public is supporting key workers, let’s expose those companies & service stations that have shut their facilities to commercial drivers, or are the public shallow and will still go, because they’re cheap!!
		
Click to expand...

Glad I chose to blackball them myself then... Decided I could wait until I can source what I needed locally... 

Never understood denying a fellow human being the use of something as basic as the loo... Whenever a courier asks I never have second thoughts in allowing them access...


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## Fish (May 5, 2020)

Slime said:



			I totally agree, that's utterly unacceptable. I'm assuming all public toilets are currently closed.
Which companies can you name and shame?
How about this .......................... if you have a delivery, ask to use their facilities before unloading.
If they say no, just drive to your next delivery without unloading. Would that work?
		
Click to expand...

No, even if it was a single hit, I’d need to be empty for the next collection, so it would hamper me.

I complained to ESSO and they apologized and put out a national email to all stations that they must open their facilities, so they’ve been reprieved, but some large builders merchants and stores that are open, are saying no😡🚚



MegaSteve said:



			Glad I chose to blackball them myself then... Decided I could wait until I can source what I needed locally...

Never understood denying a fellow human being the use of something as basic as the loo... Whenever a courier asks I never have second thoughts in allowing them access...
		
Click to expand...

It’s a disgrace, and a lot of us will have long memories but unfortunately I know how shallow the public can be at times, but the R&A and other bodies are really bashing them, and rightly so.


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## Robster59 (May 5, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I read these posts about how this is affecting people and I feel massively guilty in the way my mind is at the moment. I am still working (part home, part office), I live in a village with access to walks and the countryside and, most significantly at the moment, is that cases of covid are pretty much unheard of where I am, where my family are and where I work as all are based in small, rural villages or market towns. I am struggling with the lockdown at the moment simply because, thank God, covid has not come close to my home, my work or to anyone I know and that makes it difficult. I am an educated bloke, I appreciate the bigger picture, I look in horror at the deaths and the hardship,  but the frustrations of following rules based on something that has no close impact is playing with my head at the moment. I feel incredibly selfish and self centered for feeling this way and that, in itself, gets me down. Don't get me wrong, I follow the rules to the letter, I even mask up in the supermarket but it is really getting to me now but it shouldn't, I should be glad for the minimum impact on me, my family and my close friends.

This post is a bit ranty, very self indulgent and probably worthy of the wrath of those who have been struck by this even in a minor way but the thread is about how corona virus is affecting us and this is where i am at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

A well worded post and very honest.  And at least you appreciate it and are taking the necessary measures. It''s the people who don't appreciate it and don't care about their actions and only care about themselves.  
I just await the day when someone says they should be allowed out as the death numbers have gone down and only x hundred have died.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 5, 2020)

Depending on how you cut the numbers the UK is the worse in Europe for deaths https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...in-europe-after-passing-italys-total-11983019 and while I think the article is correct in comparing the older populations in the UK v Italy as the virus seems to affect those over 50 more but nothing about it also affecting people from BAME but I guess there would be a lower ethnic proportion in Italy. 

Given that it seems to be hitting nationalitiies like Indians, Pakistani and Nepalese (from what I've seen locally) is there going to be massive spikes in these countries as there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate massive death totals there.


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## hovis (May 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Depending on how you cut the numbers the UK is the worse in Europe for deaths https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...in-europe-after-passing-italys-total-11983019 and while I think the article is correct in comparing the older populations in the UK v Italy as the virus seems to affect those over 50 more but nothing about it also affecting people from BAME but I guess there would be a lower ethnic proportion in Italy.

Given that it seems to be hitting nationalitiies like Indians, Pakistani and Nepalese (from what I've seen locally) is there going to be massive spikes in these countries as there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate massive death totals there.
		
Click to expand...

What confuses me is overnight the government decided to combine the numbers of deaths in hospital with outside.  No one seemed to bat an eyelid and now makes statements like "we're the worst in Europe".  Last time I heard the numbers we are shown daily from Spain and Italy are hospital only?   How can we compare?   One thing that's not clear is how all these countries are recording different.  Surely we won't know the true numbers for a year or two yet?


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## GB72 (May 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Depending on how you cut the numbers the UK is the worse in Europe for deaths https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...in-europe-after-passing-italys-total-11983019 and while I think the article is correct in comparing the older populations in the UK v Italy as the virus seems to affect those over 50 more but nothing about it also affecting people from BAME but I guess there would be a lower ethnic proportion in Italy.

Given that it seems to be hitting nationalitiies like Indians, Pakistani and Nepalese (from what I've seen locally) is there going to be massive spikes in these countries as there doesn't seem to be anything to indicate massive death totals there.
		
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It is wholly dependent, as per the thread on the numbers, on how these things are recorded and, as they say in the briefing every day, they are not like for like comparisons.


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## fundy (May 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			What confuses me is overnight the government decided to combine the numbers of deaths in hospital with outside.  No one seemed to bat an eyelid and now makes statements like "we're the worst in Europe".  Last time I heard the numbers we are shown daily from Spain and Italy are hospital only?   How can we compare?   One thing that's not clear is how all these countries are recording different.  Surely we won't know the true numbers for a year or two yet?
		
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people happy to pick and choose which numbers they can to suit their agenda sadly


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## MegaSteve (May 5, 2020)

fundy said:



			people happy to pick and choose which numbers they can to suit their agenda sadly
		
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Whichever way you pick or choose them there's no way of altering that they don't make for good reading...


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## fundy (May 5, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Whichever way you pick or choose them there's no way of altering that they don't make for good reading...
		
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think thats a given, but some people/areas of the press seem desperate to quote us as the "worst in Europe" to support their point of view/agenda

its been very clear from the start that numbers are barely comparable between countries, yet its almost turned into a competition for some to do so and to use those comparisons to misdirect/mislead


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## HomerJSimpson (May 5, 2020)

hovis said:



			What confuses me is overnight the government decided to combine the numbers of deaths in hospital with outside.  No one seemed to bat an eyelid and now makes statements like "we're the worst in Europe".  Last time I heard the numbers we are shown daily from Spain and Italy are hospital only?   How can we compare?   One thing that's not clear is how all these countries are recording different.  Surely we won't know the true numbers for a year or two yet?
		
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We can't apply like for like unless each country is reporting like for like and I am sure some will "nurse" numbers to suit their own need. I definitely think there is more to be gained comparing core data like age, and it seems ethnicity, along with existing co-morbidities would be a better starting point. There was talk last week if I remember about lower incomes being more susceptible too. Would be interesting to see how that panned out nation to nation


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## Billysboots (May 5, 2020)

I really, genuinely dislike the fascination with comparing countries like this is some sort of league table.

Every death caused by this virus is a terrible tragedy, regardless of which nation reports the most.


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## Crazyface (May 5, 2020)

Local household waste sites to open on May 11th round here. With this happening who on here is going to raise merry hell about it? No one, because those in power have made the decision. Oh well that's ok then is it? But someone says they are going to stand in a field with no one around and wave a bit of metal about and they want them shot dead? 

I'm really REALLY annoyed now.


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## ColchesterFC (May 5, 2020)

Until today I'd been relatively unaffected by the virus. Yes I'd had to isolate in our caravan on our drive for 14 days after my last job but that was a small price to pay for having money coming in, and getting half day rate for my time in isolation was an added bonus. I'm still also getting job offers coming in and am waiting to hear on when I'm due to go away again. I've been shopping once a week and getting everything we need for meals for the week rather than every other day but apart from that the impact had been fairly minor. 

Today Mrs Colch received a phone call from her best friend to say that her friend's dad had died this morning after contracting Covid in hospital. Suddenly it's much closer to home, especially as her friend's parents lived three doors down from Mrs Colch's parents on the same road.


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## SocketRocket (May 5, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Local household waste sites to open on May 11th round here. With this happening who on here is going to raise merry hell about it? No one, because those in power have made the decision. Oh well that's ok then is it? But someone says they are going to stand in a field with no one around and wave a bit of metal about and they want them shot dead?

I'm really REALLY annoyed now.
		
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Didnt read they were going to shoot golfers ?


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## ColchesterFC (May 5, 2020)

I actually broke lockdown rules yesterday and made my first "non-essential" journey since lockdown began. My younger son has been wanting to get a rabbit for months and we had finally found a bonded pair at a (reasonably) local rescue centre. We got a call yesterday to say that our application was successful and we could pick them up. I'd seen that the rescue centre had put out a plea on Facebook for donations of certain things that they were urgently in need of - cat litter, cat meat and hay to feed the rabbits. So I drove to our local Pets at Home and loaded up the car with as much as I could afford and then drove (40 minutes each way) to deliver it to them and pick up the rabbits while sticking to social distancing rules. I now have a very happy younger son but also a slight feeling of guilt over making a non-essential journey.


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## ColchesterFC (May 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Didnt read they were going to shoot golfers ?
		
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Only those that don't stand in the HNSP while their playing partners are teeing off or those that change their shoes in the car park.


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## Wolf (May 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I actually broke lockdown rules yesterday and made my first "non-essential" journey since lockdown began. My younger son has been wanting to get a rabbit for months and we had finally found a bonded pair at a (reasonably) local rescue centre. We got a call yesterday to say that our application was successful and we could pick them up. I'd seen that the rescue centre had put out a plea on Facebook for donations of certain things that they were urgently in need of - cat litter, cat meat and hay to feed the rabbits. So I drove to our local Pets at Home and loaded up the car with as much as I could afford and then drove (40 minutes each way) to deliver it to them and pick up the rabbits while sticking to social distancing rules. I now have a very happy younger son but also a slight feeling of guilt over making a non-essential journey.
		
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Your son being happy at this tough period is a necessity because its hard enough on us as well as young ones. Plus you provided some other animals with sanitation and food. I wouldn't beat yourself up over it, you followed protocol and have done something that will benefit your sons well being I'd class that at the moment as something well warranted. 👍🏻


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## SocketRocket (May 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Only those that don't stand in the HNSP while their playing partners are teeing off or those that change their shoes in the car park. 

Click to expand...

Please dont start that one again 🙏


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## Jamesbrown (May 5, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I actually broke lockdown rules yesterday and made my first "non-essential" journey since lockdown began. My younger son has been wanting to get a rabbit for months and we had finally found a bonded pair at a (reasonably) local rescue centre. We got a call yesterday to say that our application was successful and we could pick them up. I'd seen that the rescue centre had put out a plea on Facebook for donations of certain things that they were urgently in need of - cat litter, cat meat and hay to feed the rabbits. So I drove to our local Pets at Home and loaded up the car with as much as I could afford and then drove (40 minutes each way) to deliver it to them and pick up the rabbits while sticking to social distancing rules. I now have a very happy younger son but also a slight feeling of guilt over making a non-essential journey.
		
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Most of my neighbours have broke the rules, I see rule breaking a couple of times a day, my mother with mild emphysema has broken the rules, the CMO of Scotland has broke the rules and I bet a pound to a Penny that many here have but won’t admit it! I have. 
My dogs have had 3-5 walks a depending on the shift I’m on.


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## backwoodsman (May 6, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I actually broke lockdown rules yesterday and made my first "non-essential" journey since lockdown began. My younger son has been wanting to get a rabbit for months and we had finally found a bonded pair at a (reasonably) local rescue centre. We got a call yesterday to say that our application was successful and we could pick them up. I'd seen that the rescue centre had put out a plea on Facebook for donations of certain things that they were urgently in need of - cat litter, cat meat and hay to feed the rabbits. So I drove to our local Pets at Home and loaded up the car with as much as I could afford and then drove (40 minutes each way) to deliver it to them and pick up the rabbits while sticking to social distancing rules. I now have a very happy younger son but also a slight feeling of guilt over making a non-essential journey.
		
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I very much doubt there are many people who have not broken the rules by some means at some time. And I very much doubt that it was ever expected that all of us would obey them all the time. Just that nearly all of us would obey them nearly all of the time. Which is working.


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## Hobbit (May 6, 2020)

Andalucia stretches from the Portuguese border, along the south coast and up the east coast to Murcia, and is broken down into provinces. At the eastern end of Andalucia is the province of Almeria. Today's headline;

"Segundo día sin nuevos contagios ni muertes" Second day with no new infection and no deaths. 

Great to see but reminders aren't too far away. Saturday saw the Police cordon off a street in the village. An ambulance turned up and off loaded a patient returning from a stay in hospital. They and the family are now in isolation for 14 days, the local police dropping off supplies yesterday.

There's lots of positives, and things are moving the right way, but we can't be complacent.


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## AmandaJR (May 6, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is wholly dependent, as per the thread on the numbers, on how these things are recorded and, as they say in the briefing every day, they are not like for like comparisons.
		
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Billysboots said:



			I really, genuinely dislike the fascination with comparing countries like this is some sort of league table.

Every death caused by this virus is a terrible tragedy, regardless of which nation reports the most.
		
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I think the government dropped a clanger showing that slide in the first briefing...probably hoping we wouldn't eventually top the table. As we have no idea how accurate/honest etc the reporting is then it is a bit pointless but would look very odd if they didn't continue to show it ever day.

Every time it was mentioned yesterday I broke into "We are the champions" and "top, top, top, top, top of the league" etc to show my disdain


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## Slab (May 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Andalucia stretches from the Portuguese border, along the south coast and up the east coast to Murcia, and is broken down into provinces. At the eastern end of Andalucia is the province of Almeria. Today's headline;

"Segundo día sin nuevos contagios ni muertes" Second day with no new infection and no deaths.

Great to see but reminders aren't too far away. Saturday saw the Police cordon off a street in the village. An ambulance turned up and off loaded a patient returning from a stay in hospital. They and the family are now in isolation for 14 days, the local police dropping off supplies yesterday.

There's lots of positives, and things are moving the right way, but we can't be complacent.
		
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Good news, hope your Gov makes the right choices
we've had one death in 25 days, we've had zero new cases for 10 days... all that got us was another month locked up


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## Wolf (May 6, 2020)

Had my first lockdown outburst today, had to go to Lidl our nearest supermarkets for some essentials as we couldn't get them in our shopping or at village shop. Queue to get in fair enough, when in there was absolute carnage, no forms of SD, people having a free for all and a couple shopping together who kept walking into my space and leaning in areas where myself or others were getting items.


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## Slab (May 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Had my first lockdown outburst today, had to go to Lidl our nearest supermarkets for some essentials as we couldn't get them in our shopping or at village shop. Queue to get in fair enough, when in there was absolute carnage, no forms of SD, people having a free for all and a couple shopping together who kept walking into my space and leaning in areas where myself or others were getting items.
		
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It’s my government designated shopping day today, we don’t really need anything urgently but I’d thought about using it as a pretext to go to the shop anyway, just so that I could get out of the flat for an hour and buy some stuff. Ended up not bothering but I know I’ll regret it tomorrow when I don’t have the option anymore


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## spongebob59 (May 6, 2020)

Wonder if it look like this 

Governments plan to get out of Covid-19 restrictions will be set out in 5 phases, following the Irish plan announced recently. The possible solution, which is due to be officially announced to the public this coming Sunday, may contain 5 main phases, with a 3 week review taking place between each phase.

If the number of coronavirus cases begin to increase, they will revert to the restrictions set out in the previous stage.

Phase 1 – 18th May
Phase 2 – 8th June
Phase 3 – 29th June
Phase 4 – 20th July
Phase 5 – 10th August

PHASE 1
Phase 1 of the roadmap will lift the following restrictions:
🔸 Construction workers, landscape gardeners and other outdoor workers may return to work
🔸 Garden centres, repair shops and hardware stores may reopen
🔸 Fitness & sport activities (non-contact) in small groups (max of 4 people) may resume (golf included)
🔸  People may meet up with friends and family in small groups outdoors (size of a “small group” is defined as up to 4 people)
🔸 The majority of regular health services will resume
🔸 Outdoor public amenities and tourism sites may reopen (beaches & mountain walks)
*NOTE – social distancing guidelines will remain in operation for all

PHASE 2
Phase 2 of the roadmap will lift the following restrictions:
🔸 Restriction






Report


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## Fish (May 6, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			PHASE 1
Phase 1 of the roadmap will lift the following restrictions:
🔸 Construction workers, landscape gardeners and other outdoor workers may return to work
🔸 Garden centres, repair shops and hardware stores may reopen
🔸 Fitness & sport activities (non-contact) in small groups (max of 4 people) may resume (golf included)
🔸  People may meet up with friends and family in small groups outdoors (size of a “small group” is defined as up to 4 people)
		
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Most of the above in some guise are all still working and open.

I'm delivering to constructions sites still, a lot of large individual house builds and major extensions/refits throughout London are very much in full operation.

Landscape vans full of waste driving around in every city.

I've seen private garden centres open, many small independent hardware shops, and of course the big boys are open.

I see football and cricket being played in London parks, in large groups.  

The Department Store on Oxford St is being stripped of stock as it went bust, had to collect from there yesterday, must have been 30+ inside stripping shelves of goods and boxing them ready for collection, no PPE being worn by anyone! 

Roads are getting busier every day, more so within cities and town's, motorways are still quieter than normal, but there is a build up of more cars, thus more accidents due mainly to speeding, and congestion is starting again in regular hotspots, traffic news on the radio is getting busier, which is a key indicator that people are venturing out more...


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## Hobbit (May 6, 2020)

Fish said:



			Most of the above in some guise are all still working and open.

I'm delivering to constructions sites still, a lot of large individual house builds and major extensions/refits throughout London are very much in full operation.

Landscape vans full of waste driving around in every city.

I've seen private garden centres open, many small independent hardware shops, and of course the big boys are open.

I see football and cricket being played in London parks, in large groups. 

The Department Store on Oxford St is being stripped of stock as it went bust, had to collect from there yesterday, must have been 30+ inside stripping shelves of goods and boxing them ready for collection, no PPE being worn by anyone!

Roads are getting busier every day, more so within cities and town's, motorways are still quieter than normal, but there is a build up of more cars, thus more accidents due mainly to speeding, and congestion is starting again in regular hotspots, traffic news on the radio is getting busier, which is a key indicator that people are venturing out more...
		
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The motorway near us, about a mile and a half away, seems almost back to normal. Missing a few vehicles maybe. 6 vehicles a minute isn't far off.


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## Billysboots (May 6, 2020)

Slab said:



			Good news, hope your Gov makes the right choices
we've had one death in 25 days, we've had zero new cases for 10 days... all that got us was another month locked up 

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The phrase I’d use is short term pain for, hopefully, significant long term gain. I accept another month inside is daunting, but if it rids you of this virus altogether that has to be good.

The UK, on the other hand, has a long, long way to go before we reach that point. If ever.

It has to be worth it mate.


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## Green Bay Hacker (May 6, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Anybody risked B&Q yet? I could do with getting some peashingle but not sure I want the hassle/risk...
		
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Have done 2 click and collect and picked up in their deserted car park. Also had one delivery from them but unfortunately it was short by 15 litres of paint.


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## Slime (May 6, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Had my first lockdown outburst today, had to go to Lidl our nearest supermarkets for some essentials as we couldn't get them in our shopping or at village shop. Queue to get in fair enough, when in there was absolute carnage, no forms of SD, people having a free for all and a couple shopping together who kept walking into my space and leaning in areas where myself or others were getting items.
		
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Welcome to the world of my local Tesco!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 6, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			This is one of the best takes on this whole virus lockdown I have seen.
Whoever wrote this - well said.
		
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Note that it matters one iota - I'm guessing it originated in the States - simply on the basis of '..._candy _for Easter' 

The experience of individuals through this crisis, and the impact it is having on their lives today - and will have into their future,  can be very, very different - even within a single family.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 7, 2020)

Found out when I got in this morning we'd lost a former colleague to it yesterday. Gutted


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## Lump (May 7, 2020)

Back from 2 days in London with work @ Marleybone Station. 
I’ve got to say, for the most part, London is a lot quieter than I’ve ever seen it. It’s actually quite pleasant with it being not a mad rush.


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## SocketRocket (May 7, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Had my first lockdown outburst today, had to go to Lidl our nearest supermarkets for some essentials as we couldn't get them in our shopping or at village shop. Queue to get in fair enough, when in there was absolute carnage, no forms of SD, people having a free for all and a couple shopping together who kept walking into my space and leaning in areas where myself or others were getting items.
		
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I had a supermarket incident.  I drove my wife to the local M&S food hall, the carpark was almost deserted so I parked in an empty area. A Woman drove in  and parked inches up against my car and sat there looking at her phone, I waited to see how she would get out the car. Eventually she tried to open the door but  obviously couldnt get out so she climed over and got out the passenger side.  I opened my window and asked why she had decided to park against my car, she told me to go forth and multiply. 😄


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## BrianM (May 7, 2020)

Another 3 weeks of lockdown in Scotland.
At the end of the day if it saves life’s, it’s worth it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Please dont start that one again 🙏
		
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...and don't you start that religious stuff - you and yer 🙏s


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## SocketRocket (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and don't you start that religious stuff - you and yer 🙏s 

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You started it 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You started it 😉
		
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Or the Big Man did - but I can't prove it - and don't have a link...maybe it was just a big bang - but I can't prove that either - think I'll just disappear down a worm hole into another dimension - or is that the link I'm still looking for ! As that's where others oft think I ought to be - we all suffer our own little forms of madness


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## SocketRocket (May 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or the Big Man did - but I can't prove it - and don't have a link...maybe it was just a big bang - but I can't prove that either - think I'll just disappear down a worm hole into another dimension - or is that the link I'm still looking for ! As that's where others oft think I ought to be - we all suffer our own little forms of madness 

Click to expand...

Lost me there, this is about Corona virus 🤔


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## DanFST (May 7, 2020)

I'm really struggling today. I've been quarantined since the 6th of March apart from the one day before the lockdown started (62 days).  I've been alone since then going out once every 10 days for food and that's it.  

Today was supposed to be my first day In Barbados. That, combined with noticing people ignoring the rules when I can't bring myself to, has really taken it's toll.


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## SocketRocket (May 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm really struggling today. I've been quarantined since the 6th of March apart from the one day before the lockdown started (62 days).  I've been alone since then going out once every 10 days for food and that's it. 

Today was supposed to be my first day In Barbados. That, combined with noticing people ignoring the rules when I can't bring myself to, has really taken it's toll.
		
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Moving there or holiday?  
Yes, I can see how you're miffed about it.  Good on you for doing it right though   Can you not take some exercise outside?


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## Mudball (May 7, 2020)

I am going into a strange situation. Next month, PCP on the car runs out. We ‘exchanged’ for another brand. Then Covid hit. 

Now old car can’t take it away and new car can’t be delivered.  I can’t pay the balloon payment either. 

Will be a long call to the pcp finance at Santander.. not sure how it will be resolved


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## DanFST (May 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Moving there or holiday? 
Yes, I can see how you're miffed about it.  Good on you for doing it right though   Can you not take some exercise outside?
		
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A holiday. I've been working super hard and long hours since January 2019 in a new company (typically 60+ hour weeks). This was my first real break apart from a 4 day weekend here and there.

I've been exercising in the garden, but maybe a walk might help. I really just want to talk to someone with a beer, I don't care how far away they are.  I'm not sure how people can also ignore the rules, Not about me, just I can't imagine how i could cope if I ended up infecting someone and someone lost a family member.


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## MegaSteve (May 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm really struggling today. I've been quarantined since the 6th of March apart from the one day before the lockdown started (62 days).  I've been alone since then going out once every 10 days for food and that's it. 

Today was supposed to be my first day In Barbados. That, combined with noticing people ignoring the rules when I can't bring myself to, has really taken it's toll.
		
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Stay safe Dan... There'll be plenty of opportunities for a holiday around the corner...


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## Lord Tyrion (May 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am going into a strange situation. Next month, PCP on the car runs out. We ‘exchanged’ for another brand. Then Covid hit. 

Now old car can’t take it away and new car can’t be delivered.  I can’t pay the balloon payment either. 

Will be a long call to the pcp finance at Santander.. not sure how it will be resolved
		
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I'd expect them to be surprisingly flexible and accommodating. My company lease car goes back june 30, my wife's june 15. In both cases it has been yes sir, no sir, whatever you want sir. My wife is taking a rolling monthly extension for up to 6 months on her car, notice to return is days not a month. I'm going to buy mine but they offered the same options to me.

Don't be worried, they are more afraid of you right now than they other way around. They are expecting a lot of returns, cancellations and bad debt.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Lost me there, this is about Corona virus 🤔
		
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it's the madness that's coming on me because of the cv.  Had a difficult work week - too stressful and I don't need it and it's hitting me emotionally.  But hey.  Mrs Hogie is understanding and supportive


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## HomerJSimpson (May 7, 2020)

Had my worse day since this started. Came home and had a good cry


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## Mudball (May 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had my worse day since this started. Came home and had a good cry
		
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Take care Homer... we will get thru this.. - it is difficult to keep personal, family and team morale up during these times.  I had my wobble last week, I lost a few deals when they got pulled after signature. This week an angel came from nowhere and looks like I may be able to keep team working in a few days. There is a God and we will get out of this.

.. and thank you for doing your bit to keep the wheel turning at the hospital.


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## Rlburnside (May 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had my worse day since this started. Came home and had a good cry
		
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Take care mate it will get better


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## fundy (May 7, 2020)

DanFST said:



			A holiday. I've been working super hard and long hours since January 2019 in a new company (typically 60+ hour weeks). This was my first real break apart from a 4 day weekend here and there.

I've been exercising in the garden, but maybe a walk might help. I really just want to talk to someone with a beer, I don't care how far away they are.  I'm not sure how people can also ignore the rules, Not about me, just I can't imagine how i could cope if I ended up infecting someone and someone lost a family member.
		
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get out and have a walk if you can (ideally somewhere with some nature albeit might be hard where you are), do you have someone you can facetime/skype for a virtual beer or two until you can do the real thing?

if you need to rant/get it off the chest etc feel free to pm


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## fundy (May 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had my worse day since this started. Came home and had a good cry
		
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doesnt sound good Homie, things got worse at your ICU?


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## Slime (May 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had my worse day since this started. Came home and had a good cry
		
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We know you'll bounce back ............................ you're HomerJSimpson.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			doesnt sound good Homie, things got worse at your ICU?
		
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Lost a former colleague overnight and just hit me like a ton of bricks. Same age of me and someone I'd worked with my entire NHS career and use to go for a beer with every now and then. We're back up to 27 cases (and still a lot from ethnic backgrounds) and too very long days trying to strip out theatres we'd taken over for a planned scale back although the consensus from a few consultants is its too soon but the trust want to get back to operating more or less as normal.


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## fundy (May 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Lost a former colleague overnight and just hit me like a ton of bricks. Same age of me and someone I'd worked with my entire NHS career and use to go for a beer with every now and then. We're back up to 27 cases (and still a lot from ethnic backgrounds) and too very long days trying to strip out theatres we'd taken over for a planned scale back although the consensus from a few consultants is its too soon but the trust want to get back to operating more or less as normal.
		
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Sorry to hear  sound like you could do with a beer yourself. you got some time off over the BH or you back in tomorrow?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 7, 2020)

fundy said:



			Sorry to hear  sound like you could do with a beer yourself. you got some time off over the BH or you back in tomorrow?
		
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Day off tomorrow. First time I've not worked a full 5 day week (bar the 7 day medical suspension) since January so lie in, bacon sarnie for brekkie and some short game work in the garden and a few rays and a beer to some tunes on Spotify and I'll raise a glass to my mate as well. All good in as much as my wife and my loved ones are all good but a little bit of a reality shock how it really can take people you know so quickly


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## Backache (May 7, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Lost a former colleague overnight and just hit me like a ton of bricks. Same age of me and someone I'd worked with my entire NHS career and use to go for a beer with every now and then. We're back up to 27 cases (and still a lot from ethnic backgrounds) and too very long days trying to strip out theatres we'd taken over for a planned scale back although the consensus from a few consultants is its too soon but the trust want to get back to operating more or less as normal.
		
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Good luck and best wishes and hope it quietens down.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 7, 2020)

Every time I hear or see the NHS mentioned, I feel like I live in a swamp or jungle.
If I had no other reason to be an Anglophile, that alone would be enough.
But there's the UK TV shows that I've enjoyed as well.
And this miserable pandemic has me watching plenty of television.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 8, 2020)

A good night sleep, tea in bed and a lie in, bacon butty and brown sauce and HID making home made sausage rolls. Today seems infinitely better than yesterday and having had a cry and got it all out I feel infinitely better today. Thanks to the forum support. Meant a lot. Got a street VE party, well sitting at the end of the garden path and observing social distancing to enjoy this afternoon and we've had a Spitfire fly overhead about 45 minutes ago. Onwards and upwards


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## Wolf (May 8, 2020)

Just had a call from my mum, Dad's just received the news his best friend since childhood, so a good 65+ years has passed away yesterday. Dad is doing his usual im fine getting on with things attitude but has today started new projects at home that don't need doing in a bid to keep himself busy and stop thinking or speaking about it. They were literally like brothers, went to school together, worked together, played football together. Made all the more harder because seems he possibly won't be allowed to the funeral as its family only, the reason that's worse is it means only 2 people will be there to remember him.. Feel for the old fella right now and would love to go help him with those jobs even in silence just so he knows he has someone there with him..


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## SocketRocket (May 8, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just had a call from my mum, Dad's just received the news his best friend since childhood, so a good 65+ years has passed away yesterday. Dad is doing his usual im fine getting on with things attitude but has today started new projects at home that don't need doing in a bid to keep himself busy and stop thinking or speaking about it. They were literally like brothers, went to school together, worked together, played football together. Made all the more harder because seems he possibly won't be allowed to the funeral as its family only, the reason that's worse is it means only 2 people will be there to remember him.. Feel for the old fella right now and would love to go help him with those jobs even in silence just so he knows he has someone there with him..
		
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Its hard losing life long friends, I feel for him. I've lost some great friends recently, ones that you know you will never be able to sit with and recall past times you had together. A mate I play golf with died last week, he had an aorta aneurysm a few years ago but they fitted a stent that saved him, it ruptured last week and when he arrived at Birmingham Queen Elizabeth Hospital the specialist unit had been shut and used as a Covid ward, they couldnt save him.  Couldnt go to his funeral but they did have a live video service which was better than missing it altogether.

Best wishes for your Dad.


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## Italian outcast (May 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its hard losing life long friends, I feel for him. I've lost some great friends recently, ones that you know you will never be able to sit with and recall past times you had together. A mate I play golf with died last week, he had an aorta aneurism a few years ago but they fitted a stent that saved him, it ruptured last week and when he arrived at Birmingham Queen Elizabeth Hospital the specialist unit had been shut and used as a Covid ward, they couldnt save him.  *Couldnt go to his funeral but they did have a live video service which was better than missing it altogether*.

Best wishes for your Dad.
		
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Sorry about your friend and the others mentioned in recent posts
These video services have been great in these times for many


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## clubchamp98 (May 8, 2020)

Member of our club died yesterday.
Only in his twenties.really nice young man.
Known him since he was 12 yrs old.
Not sure if Covid related but a shock .
Can’t even go and show our respects .
This virus is a ########.


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## Slab (May 9, 2020)

Twelfth consecutive day with no new cases (not sure what will happen if we make it to 14)

We do have one bloke currently 'on the run' from a hospital with a suspected case so fingers crossed he's found and negative


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## Blue in Munich (May 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Just had a call from my mum, Dad's just received the news his best friend since childhood, so a good 65+ years has passed away yesterday. Dad is doing his usual im fine getting on with things attitude but has today started new projects at home that don't need doing in a bid to keep himself busy and stop thinking or speaking about it. They were literally like brothers, went to school together, worked together, played football together. Made all the more harder because seems *he possibly won't be allowed to the funeral as its family only, the reason that's worse is it means only 2 people will be there to remember him.*. Feel for the old fella right now and would love to go help him with those jobs even in silence just so he knows he has someone there with him..
		
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I don't believe that's necessarily the case;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ing-a-funeral-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic

Communities, organisations and individuals are strongly advised to take action to reduce the risk of spreading coronavirus (COVID-19) infection among mourners who are gathered to pay their respects, with a particular focus on protecting people who are clinically vulnerable and more likely to develop severe illness. These actions include:


restricting the number of mourners to be as low as possible to ensure a safe distance of at least 2 metres (6 ft) can be maintained between individuals
alongside the Funeral Director, Chapel Attendant, and funeral staff only the following should attend:
members of the person’s household
close family members
*or if the above are unable to attend, close friends*
attendance of a celebrant of choice, should the bereaved request this

I would sincerely hope that if there are only 2 members of family & your Dad was that close a friend, no-one would question his attendance if the total number of mourners will then be 3.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

The list of provinces approved to move onto the next phase of lockdown were published by the govt last night. Failing to pass the criteria doesn't mean an overly infected province, e.g. inland La Mancha province failed even though the number of infections is low. A province must have 2 empty ICU beds and 45 spare hospital beds per 100,000 residents.

Two provinces in Andalucia region failed to move onto phase 1, Malaga and Granada. I'm not surprised that Malaga failed. They suffered early and hard, after Madrid, and still have a number of patients in ICU.

Bars and restaurants reopen on Monday but only their terraces, and only to 50% capacity. This led bar and restaurant owners in Benidorm to kick-off, and they were refusing to open. The mayor stepped in and said the bar and restaurant owners could have the parking spaces in front of their premises for tables.

Friends may meet or visit each others homes, max 10 people. This can only occur in the same town in which they live, e.g. we have some friends that moved about 20 miles just before lockdown. We can't visit them because they live in a different town but what isn't clear(loophole?) is they can attend the bowls club, and we can sit with them for a drink after playing... amateur, non-contact sports are permitted from Monday, e.g. tennis, bowls, athletics.

Travelling together in the car is ok from Monday but only one can go into a shop.

Each phase, ideally, will last 2 weeks, and there are 2 further phases after phase 1. In effect, completely out of lockdown in 6 weeks time. However, according to Sanchez, the PM, there will be new, long term, rules after the final phase is completed, which will be in place until everyone is vaccinated.


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## AmandaJR (May 9, 2020)

My sister lives in Mollina - she'll be happy with some more freedom...especially if it means the bars are open


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			My sister lives in Mollina - she'll be happy with some more freedom...especially if it means the bars are open 

Click to expand...

Sorry to be the bringer of bad news Amanda but she lives in Malaga province. She will still be in phase 0 of lockdown.


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## MegaSteve (May 9, 2020)

Reading that 'garden centres' will be opening again soon... There's at least one been open for a while now in these parts... Wonder if they've been dobbed in and had any visits from plod... That's without the likes of The Range using/abusing "guidelines" to remain open... Liking the idea of encouraging cycling/walking but first a way of removing the murderous intent of way too many that are behind a wheel will have too be found... Mass machine gunning has always been my suggestion...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 9, 2020)

Yesterday we went into town for our walk and to say hi to our daughter and her b/f as they stood on their flat balcony with us below.  A lot more traffic than we have become accustomed to - maybe due to us being midday rather than 6pm; maybe also due to folks stocking up for the pm drinks BBQs etc; maybe something to do with what the government may or may not be telling us tomorrow.  But it was soooo NOISY (aaargh).  We'd got used to the quiet.

And with so much more traffic on the road it was much harder for us to walk off the pavement into the road, or cross the road, to avoid on-coming pedestrians.  And the roads weren't actually _that_ busy.  We reflected that we hated the noise...but more importantly, that when traffic builds up towards normal levels - as we will still have to keep some separation - whatever that is - it's going to be quite hard, and potentially quite risky, at times.


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## AmandaJR (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry to be the bringer of bad news Amanda but she lives in Malaga province. She will still be in phase 0 of lockdown.
		
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Oh dear she won't be happy especially as they were meant to move house on the 1st May! She did say they'd been able to go for short walks but no dogs allowed and they have two.


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## Billysboots (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The list of provinces approved to move onto the next phase of lockdown were published by the govt last night. Failing to pass the criteria doesn't mean an overly infected province, e.g. inland La Mancha province failed even though the number of infections is low. A province must have 2 empty ICU beds and 45 spare hospital beds per 100,000 residents.

Two provinces in Andalucia region failed to move onto phase 1, Malaga and Granada. I'm not surprised that Malaga failed. They suffered early and hard, after Madrid, and still have a number of patients in ICU.

Bars and restaurants reopen on Monday but only their terraces, and only to 50% capacity. This led bar and restaurant owners in Benidorm to kick-off, and they were refusing to open. The mayor stepped in and said the bar and restaurant owners could have the parking spaces in front of their premises for tables.

Friends may meet or visit each others homes, max 10 people. This can only occur in the same town in which they live, e.g. we have some friends that moved about 20 miles just before lockdown. We can't visit them because they live in a different town but what isn't clear(loophole?) is they can attend the bowls club, and we can sit with them for a drink after playing... amateur, non-contact sports are permitted from Monday, e.g. tennis, bowls, athletics.

Travelling together in the car is ok from Monday but only one can go into a shop.

Each phase, ideally, will last 2 weeks, and there are 2 further phases after phase 1. In effect, completely out of lockdown in 6 weeks time. However, according to Sanchez, the PM, there will be new, long term, rules after the final phase is completed, which will be in place until everyone is vaccinated.
		
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I was due to travel from the UK to Estepona on June 1st. I’ve been waiting as long as possible but cancelled my accommodation booking yesterday.

Quite aside from the fact that my flight will probably be cancelled anyway, in the event I could travel (and in truth I don’t want to), from what you’re saying there would be little or no point anyway.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 9, 2020)

Returning home from my exercise and absolutely gobsmacked by the sheer amount of people out and about in the local area today. Sunbathers, queues at Ice Cream Van and Chippy, virtually impossible to maintain any sort of social distancing.

Virus must be taking the Bank Holiday weekend off!


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## Imurg (May 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Returning home from my exercise and absolutely gobsmacked by the sheer amount of people out and about in the local area today. Sunbathers, queues at Ice Cream Van and Chippy, virtually impossible to maintain any sort of social distancing.

Virus must be taking the Bank Holiday weekend off!
		
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And people are surprised that stll we have thousands of cases and hundreds of deaths every day.....


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## Papas1982 (May 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Returning home from my exercise and absolutely gobsmacked by the sheer amount of people out and about in the local area today. Sunbathers, queues at Ice Cream Van and Chippy, virtually impossible to maintain any sort of social distancing.

Virus must be taking the Bank Holiday weekend off!
		
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Coupled with the government saying furlough rates to be reduced and I fear for the fitire somewhat. 

People can't be trusted. I don't blame the government for trying to trust people, but those same people haven't repaid the faith.

The force shown in Italy and Spain should have been replicated here.


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## Del_Boy (May 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I was due to travel from the UK to Estepona on June 1st. I’ve been waiting as long as possible but cancelled my accommodation booking yesterday.

Quite aside from the fact that my flight will probably be cancelled anyway, in the event I could travel (and in truth I don’t want to), from what you’re saying there would be little or no point anyway.
		
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Who are you flying with?  My BA flight to Almeria at the end of June has been cancelled.  Good news - I’ll be receiving a further refund from BA which will probably mean another month where i won’t have a credit card bill to pay


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 9, 2020)

I’m no different to anyone else, I can’t wait to resume some normality, I just can’t currently see anyway I’d be willing to risk going somewhere which is so busy.

I live 400yds from the Coast so it obviously gets very busy at certain times of the year and upto now I’ve been quite pleasantly surprised by the local‘s behaviour, today is just the complete opposite.


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m no different to anyone else, I can’t wait to resume some normality, I just can’t currently see anyway I’d be willing to risk going somewhere which is so busy.

I live 400yds from the Coast so it obviously gets very busy at certain times of the year and upto now I’ve been quite pleasantly surprised by the local‘s behaviour, today is just the complete opposite.
		
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People can't be trusted to follow anything. The press over the last 30 years have completely undermined the government which has led to the public having zero respect for those in power. Some are useless yes but not all of them.

No matter what they do they can't win

All I can see is a slow reduction in the lockdown with masks being recommended for times you can't social distance ie at work or on public transport


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## Billysboots (May 9, 2020)

Del_Boy said:



			Who are you flying with?  My BA flight to Almeria at the end of June has been cancelled.  Good news - I’ll be receiving a further refund from BA which will probably mean another month where i won’t have a credit card bill to pay
		
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EasyJet. They’re cancelling flights currently on a rolling 7 day basis and I fully expect in a couple of weeks they’ll pull the plug on my flight. If they don’t I will move it - they are allowing customers the option to do that without charging any fee, as many times as they want, until May next year.


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Oh dear she won't be happy especially as they were meant to move house on the 1st May! She did say they'd been able to go for short walks but no dogs allowed and they have two.
		
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The mayor can sanction a house move but they would need to self-isolate for 14 days afterwards. The Protection Civil would do their shopping.


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## Piece (May 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			EasyJet. They’re cancelling flights currently on a rolling 7 day basis and I fully expect in a couple of weeks they’ll pull the plug on my flight. If they don’t I will move it - they are allowing customers the option to do that without charging any fee, as many times as they want, until May next year.
		
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I moved our Italy flights from Aug to Lanzarote flights in Feb 2021, all online. Very easy to do and no admin fee. Just that it cost more to go to Lanza that Italy. 😬


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## Doodle (May 9, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Coupled with the government saying furlough rates to be reduced and I fear for the fitire somewhat.

People can't be trusted. I don't blame the government for trying to trust people, but those same people haven't repaid the faith.

The force shown in Italy and Spain should have been replicated here.
		
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I genuinely think the lockdown is coming to an end regardless of what the Government says.
I sense that lots of people have had enough now & are just saying to hell with this I'm going out.
The lockdown is a bit of a blunt tool.
Vast areas of the country with little in the way of infections are paying a huge price for the more densely populated areas.


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## Papas1982 (May 9, 2020)

Doodle said:



			I genuinely think the lockdown is coming to an end regardless of what the Government says.
I sense that lots of people have had enough now & are just saying to hell with this I'm going out.
The lockdown is a bit of a blunt tool.
Vast areas of the country with little in the way of infections are paying a *huge price* for the more densely populated areas.
		
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How would those living in the remote area's have felt if they were left behind in the past. A road works, internet being installed, hospitals, education. All of these are lest cost efficient in areas of less dense copulation. You don't neglect them for the good of the many. So why shouldn't the few make a effort now?


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## Billysboots (May 9, 2020)

Piece said:



			I moved our Italy flights from Aug to Lanzarote flights in Feb 2021, all online. Very easy to do and no admin fee. Just that it cost more to go to Lanza that Italy. 😬
		
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I looked at a Geneva flight to take the family skiing during February half term. And then saw I’d have to stump up an extra grand 😳


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I was due to travel from the UK to Estepona on June 1st. I’ve been waiting as long as possible but cancelled my accommodation booking yesterday.

Quite aside from the fact that my flight will probably be cancelled anyway, in the event I could travel (and in truth I don’t want to), from what you’re saying there would be little or no point anyway.
		
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There are what appears to be a lot of isolated decisions beginning to look like they are taken with behind the scenes discussions. For weeks the drip fed leaks all point to flights being allowed in from the 17th June onwards. Two of the main carriers have intimated that flights will restart then, providing there isn't an unforeseen big spike. The 4 phases of unlock coincide with the 17th give or take a day or so.

Short version, I would almost put money on there being no flights on the 1st June.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Returning home from my exercise and absolutely gobsmacked by the sheer amount of people out and about in the local area today. Sunbathers, queues at Ice Cream Van and Chippy, virtually impossible to maintain any sort of social distancing.

Virus must be taking the Bank Holiday weekend off!
		
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Good job the temperature is going to drop 10-12C tomorrow


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## drdel (May 9, 2020)

Imurg said:



			And people are surprised that stll we have thousands of cases and hundreds of deaths every day.....
		
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Those same people will complain the Government is to blame!


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## AmandaJR (May 9, 2020)

Yesterday the VE party down the road from us gradually showed less and less attempt to social distance. Same bunch are out there again today and straight back into chit chatting etc. Newish allotments in the village and rode past today to see lots tending their patch. Should be easy to sd but others went to chat and seems that conversation is also continuing.

Perhaps 6 weeks in and generally not any cases we know of in the village and they all think they're unlikely to catch it - scary gamble that.


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## hovis (May 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Those same people will complain the Government is to blame!
		
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In all fairness the government came on TV two days ago encouraging people the have street parties whilst staying in your own front garden and/or maintaining social distaning!.   I mean come on, when the government said you can only go out for exercise people interpreted that as "go for a picnic and a game of cricket".  What where they thinking!


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

I think the VE Day celebrations has given people the go ahead to start to ignore the restrictions. I believe regardless of what happens tomorrow more and more people are going to ignore the restrictions - someone said a while back that he expected people to comply for 6 weeks or so but then people will venture out.

They have seen plans from places like Ireland , the USA loosing restrictions despite their rate climbing and other European Countries start to relax so if things don’t get relaxed the population will start to revolt

The PM hasn’t helped matters with his statement on Wednesday that he wants to relax things on Monday


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Those same people will complain the Government is to blame!
		
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Is it possible that both are to blame? Or is to difficult to accept that the Government have handled this relatively poorly?

Almost every media outlet has led with the story that restrictions are going to be partially lifted on Sunday. This hasn’t happened in a vacuum. This was a briefing from a “secret” source to selected media outlets (and yes, I do know these happen. I was a Production Manager for a certain print media outlet for 10 years). Whether this was a deliberate Government strategy, or a side project by a Minister or former Minister with vested interests I have no idea, but I’m 99% certain it happened. Couple this with the usual suspects thinking that rules are for “others”, and what did people think was going to happen?

FWIW, I’ve been out on a rather nice bike ride with my daughter today, and the vast majority of people were following the rules. There were exceptions, but they weren’t the norm. 

Oh, and it was nice to see so many family groups out enjoying the sunshine together 👍


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## Swinglowandslow (May 9, 2020)

hovis said:



			In all fairness the government came on TV two days ago encouraging people the have street parties whilst staying in your own front garden and/or maintaining social distaning!.   I mean come on, when the government said you can only go out for exercise people interpreted that as "go for a picnic and a game of cricket".  What where they thinking!
		
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I'm not sure who you are referring to in the last sentence😀
But it is about time we stopped this " interpreting" lark. 
Journalists have been doing it for ages. " I know what he said, but what did he really mean"?.. All to create  controversy and bolster their jobs.

If the Government said have a street party by all means but please maintain social distance, what is vague about that? What is there to " interpret?
It's clear . If you decide not to stay more than 2 metres apart it's because you don't want to, not because you don't understand fully.


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## road2ruin (May 9, 2020)

hovis said:



			In all fairness the government came on TV two days ago encouraging people the have street parties whilst staying in your own front garden and/or maintaining social distaning!.   I mean come on, when the government said you can only go out for exercise people interpreted that as "go for a picnic and a game of cricket".  What where they thinking!
		
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Completely agree, media outlets have been interviewing people who have set up street long VE Day celebrations and essentially encouraging others to do the same. Once the alcohol was flowing during a nice warm day of relaxing the social distancing was always going to become more lax.


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Completely agree, media outlets have been interviewing people who have set up street long VE Day celebrations and essentially encouraging others to do the same. Once the alcohol was flowing during a nice warm day of relaxing the social distancing was always going to become more lax.
		
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We had a street party in our relatively long cul de sac yesterday and I didn’t see one person not following the social distancing rules. And there was a lot of alcohol flowing, music playing, BBQ’s kit etc.


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## road2ruin (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			We had a street party in our relatively long cul de sac yesterday and I didn’t see one person not following the social distancing rules. And there was a lot of alcohol flowing, music playing, BBQ’s kit etc.
		
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There are also plenty that didn’t, you just have to have a brief look at social media to see how the interpretation of the 2m rule changed at different events.


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## Billysboots (May 9, 2020)

None of this is helped, it must be said, by scientists allegedly now suggesting that the UK spread is now primarily within hospital and care home settings, and that community infection is “low”.

If that is accurate then it’s very encouraging news, but I would rather hear it from the horse’s mouth than be directed to an article where it is reported.

We need accurate reporting perhaps now more than at any time during the pandemic so far, to prevent us taking huge backward steps.


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			There are also plenty that didn’t, you just have to have a brief look at social media to see how the interpretation of the 2m rule changed at different events.
		
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I still think it was a minority, but what did anyone expect when we’ve been told that restrictions are going to be lifted tomorrow?


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## Jamesbrown (May 9, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			There are also plenty that didn’t, you just have to have a brief look at social media to see how the interpretation of the 2m rule changed at different events.
		
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Seen a few, one with a conga line going up and down the street. 
Different peoples kids on each other’s drives. 

Glad nothing happened on my street, I don’t like noise as it is!


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## hovis (May 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I'm not sure who you are referring to in the last sentence😀
But it is about time we stopped this " interpreting" lark.
Journalists have been doing it for ages. " I know what he said, but what did he really mean"?.. All to create  controversy and bolster their jobs.

If the Government said have a street party by all means but please maintain social distance, what is vague about that? What is there to " interpret?
It's clear . If you decide not to stay more than 2 metres apart it's because you don't want to, not because you don't understand fully.
		
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Because you have to play to your most stupid people and we have plenty of those.  Saying it's OK to have a street party was ridiculous.  People might start with the best intentions but add alcohol to the equation and you have a disaster.
Don't get me wrong, have the party.  Just don't then tell me I can't sit on a riverbank for a days fishing on my own!


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

Park in London - today ,posted by police , nothing they can do


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



View attachment 30531

Park in London - today ,posted by police , nothing they can do
		
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look at the videos from Middlesborough VE party yesterday, makes this look like a family gathering


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

This thread is slipping into the political one again 😒


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



View attachment 30531

Park in London - today ,posted by police , nothing they can do
		
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Yes there is


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## hovis (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes there is
		
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I know. I just don't know why nothing is being done.  Man power perhaps?


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## Swinglowandslow (May 9, 2020)

hovis said:



			Because you have to play to your most stupid people and we have plenty of those.  Saying it's OK to have a street party was ridiculous.  People might start with the best intentions but add alcohol to the equation and you have a disaster.
Don't get me wrong, have the party.  Just don't then tell me I can't sit on a riverbank for a days fishing on my own!
		
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I see where you are coming from, inasmuch that "Einstein was right" ( re his quote😀)
However, there must be a limit. If you use clear English in England, and there are those who ignore it, it is not the fault of those giving advice.
And as a fellow fisherman, I agree that we could fish, the most social distancing pastime there is. However, that is a different question.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

hovis said:



			I know. I just don't know why nothing is being done.  Man power perhaps?
		
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Half a dozen plods in that park and it would be clear, half a dozen fines and maybe it would stay clear.


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## Crazyface (May 9, 2020)

At work yesterday a woman came in the brew room absolutely distraught, crying her eyes out. Massive queues at Morrisons to get in, then get out at the tills. Customers moaning at her all morning and she cracked. I felt very sorry for her. Just coz it's a nice sunny day and everyone wanted to get their BBQ stuff and booze in and get back out there. My guess is most don't give flying hoot about all this SD and want to get back to normal. No matter what.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



*Coupled with the government saying furlough rates to be reduced* and I fear for the fitire somewhat.

People can't be trusted. I don't blame the government for trying to trust people, but those same people haven't repaid the faith.

The force shown in Italy and Spain should have been replicated here.
		
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Genuine question, where did you see this? They have extended it to the end of June but I cant see anything about it being reduced.


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes there is
		
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Don’t have the manpower to police all the parks in London as well as everywhere else


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



			Don’t have the manpower to police all the parks in London as well as everywhere else
		
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You dont need to.  As I suggested you dont need to police everywhere, a few Police in a park with loudspeakers and handing out some fines will clear it, if you do it consistently the word gets around. One problem is the fines are too small, some £800 first fines would make an impression.  What stops most people speeding in cars or parking on yellow lines?


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## bluewolf (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question, where did you see this? They have extended it to the end of June but I cant see anything about it being reduced.
		
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I saw a few tv pieces about this on Wednesday/Thursday. Discussing how they’re going to end the scheme. Lots of talk about dropping the rate to 60%, 50% etc.


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont need to.  As I suggested you dont need to police everywhere, a few Police in a park with loudspeakers and handing out some fines will clear it, if you do it consistently the word gets around. One problem is the fines are too small, some £800 first fines would make an impression.  What stops most people speeding in cars.
		
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I’m shocked if it’s as simple as you make it sound that they haven’t done it already.


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## GB72 (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Genuine question, where did you see this? They have extended it to the end of June but I cant see anything about it being reduced.
		
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Seen some reports about a post June tail off with rates that the government will cover reducing each month thereafter


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I saw a few tv pieces about this on Wednesday/Thursday. Discussing how they’re going to end the scheme. Lots of talk about dropping the rate to 60%, 50% etc.
		
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I just cant find any reference to it, not saying it won't  happen though.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Seen some reports about a post June tail off with rates that the government will cover reducing each month thereafter
		
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Where are the reports, I cant find any.


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## Stuart_C (May 9, 2020)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8289457/Government-furlough-cash-reduced-60-cent-wages.html

excuse the source


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



			I’m shocked if it’s as simple as you make it sound that they haven’t done it already.
		
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It's just the way we are, soft on crime.  Take a look at Spain for instance and see how people have been locked down and the punishments for breaking it.  If you knew you would get an £800 fine for breaking the rules would you chance it?


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8289457/Government-furlough-cash-reduced-60-cent-wages.html

excuse the source
		
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Thanks for that, I didnt find it.  It looks like it's only speculation from the press at the moment.


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## Stuart_C (May 9, 2020)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...us-furlough-scheme-could-cut-back-costs-soar/


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's just the way we are, soft on crime.  Take a look at Spain for instance and see how people have been locked down and the punishments for breaking it.  If you knew you would get an £800 fine for breaking the rules would you chance it?
		
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So the initial statement was right - because we don’t have the punishments and the level of fines the police are pretty much powerless when it comes to what we see in the picture


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## Stuart_C (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks for that, I didnt find it.  It looks like it's only speculation from the press at the moment.
		
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In an interview last night, Mr Sunak tried to reassure workers and businesses that they will not face a 'cliff edge' of subsidies being withdrawn immediately when lockdown measures are eased.

But amid signs of strains within government about the huge burden on the country's finances, Mr Sunak pointed out that the furlough scheme could soon be costing the same as the NHS budget - an estimated £11 billion a month. 

*'I'm working, as we speak, to figure out the most effective way to wind down the (furlough) scheme and to ease people back into work in a measured way,' he told ITV.*

'As some scenarios have suggested, we are potentially spending as much on the furlough scheme as we do on the NHS, for example. Clearly that is not a sustainable situation.' 

More than just press speculation.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



			So the initial statement was right - because we don’t have the punishments and the level of fines the police are pretty much powerless when it comes to what we see in the picture
		
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No, if a few Policemen with loudhailers went into that park they could clear it in no time and some fines handed out would prevent it happening again.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			In an interview last night, Mr Sunak tried to reassure workers and businesses that they will not face a 'cliff edge' of subsidies being withdrawn immediately when lockdown measures are eased.

But amid signs of strains within government about the huge burden on the country's finances, Mr Sunak pointed out that the furlough scheme could soon be costing the same as the NHS budget - an estimated £11 billion a month.

*'I'm working, as we speak, to figure out the most effective way to wind down the (furlough) scheme and to ease people back into work in a measured way,' he told ITV.*

'As some scenarios have suggested, we are potentially spending as much on the furlough scheme as we do on the NHS, for example. Clearly that is not a sustainable situation.'

More than just press speculation.
		
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I am not arguing with the concept and it's obvious the scheme cannot carry on for long.  When I read about reports saying it would be reduced I couldnt find reports saying that.  You provided a link to the DM where they speculated it being cut to 60%, so yes.


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## PaulS (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, if a few Policemen with loudhailers went into that park they could clear it in no time and some fines handed out would prevent it happening again.
		
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And what happens if they ignore the loudhailer? How many police would it take to go around giving thousands a fine ? 

The police have said it’s not manageable for them to be able to police large areas like that - it’s happened all over the country with the VE celebrations yesterday as well. That’s what happens when governments rip the forces to the bare bones and display mixed messages in what they say.


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## Imurg (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



			And what happens if they ignore the loudhailer? How many police would it take to go around giving thousands a fine ?

The police have said it’s not manageable for them to be able to police large areas like that - it’s happened all over the country with the VE celebrations yesterday as well. That’s what happens when governments rip the forces to the bare bones and display mixed messages in what they say.
		
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If they're serious about stopping people sunbathing and having picnics etc then get the Army in..


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## clubchamp98 (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont need to.  As I suggested you dont need to police everywhere, a few Police in a park with loudspeakers and handing out some fines will clear it, if you do it consistently the word gets around. One problem is the fines are too small, some £800 first fines would make an impression.  What stops most people speeding in cars or parking on yellow lines?
		
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Cameras .


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...us-furlough-scheme-could-cut-back-costs-soar/

Click to expand...

Does not surprise me one bit 

They will open some jobs and drop people back into them .. furlough the gig economy etc longer and let things that can operate a bit open up. Fast foods are making a come back slowly 

Get as many people off furlough as possible to keep costs down

They will want to protect the economy


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## Hobbit (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's just the way we are, soft on crime.  Take a look at Spain for instance and see how people have been locked down and the punishments for breaking it.  If you knew you would get an £800 fine for breaking the rules would you chance it?
		
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Reported today in Spain, 900,000 fines. As painful as its been, and certain areas have looked to be following the lockdown really well, I'm not sure Spain has been much different behind closed doors. We know of BBQ's, parties drinks on the terrace by a number of our neighbours.

Mind you, 900,000 x €60(minimum) = €54,000,000.


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## fundy (May 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Reported today in Spain, 900,000 fines. As painful as its been, and certain areas have looked to be following the lockdown really well, I'm not sure Spain has been much different behind closed doors. We know of BBQ's, parties drinks on the terrace by a number of our neighbours.

Mind you, 900,000 x €60(minimum) = €54,000,000.
		
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so it doesnt actually stop people, just offsets some of the costs to the economy as plenty seem happy to break the rules and pay the fine, or have they still got to collect on the fines?


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Cameras .
		
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No, it's the fines that hurt wherever they come from.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

PaulS said:



			And what happens if they ignore the loudhailer? How many police would it take to go around giving thousands a fine ?

The police have said it’s not manageable for them to be able to police large areas like that - it’s happened all over the country with the VE celebrations yesterday as well. That’s what happens when governments rip the forces to the bare bones and display mixed messages in what they say.
		
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You just dont get it. I've seen film of police with loudhailers in parks and it does work.  What you're saying is unless you give out fines to everyone that speeds it's not a deterent. I have explained a number of times to you now that the police dont need to fine them all, just fine six or ten in that park and it would be a deterent, the problem is the fines are not large enough to deter.


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## clubchamp98 (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, it's the fines that hurt wherever they come from.
		
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I havnt seen cops on the beat for donkeys years .
They rely on cameras .


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## Billysboots (May 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I havnt seen cops on the beat for donkeys years .
They rely on cameras .
		
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Cobblers. Sorry, but when most police forces were cut to the bone, they remained focused on community policing because it is still the foundation upon which policing in this country is built. Do you sit all day at your window specifically seeking out the police?

The two biggest bandwagons in this country, and the most misinformed, are that police are no longer visible in the community and that they spend their entire lives targeting the poor, innocent motorist.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I havnt seen cops on the beat for donkeys years .
They rely on cameras .
		
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This conversation is chasing red herrings, Speed cameras are nothing to do with it.  Are you're saying we should not fine anyone for anything as it's impossible to hand out the tickets? 

Cameras dont give out parking tickets. We do have Police and Community Officers who can do this, it's not as though we need them all on the roads at the moment.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 9, 2020)

Did I miss the rules being relaxed already. So many cars on the road, people over the nature reserve having full blown games of footie and picnics. No concept pf social distancing ad I won't be surprised when we get a second spike of infections being passed in the community. People have already got it in their head tomorrow will see lockdown relaxed and gone ahead and decided it doesn't matter


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## hovis (May 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Did I miss the rules being relaxed already. So many cars on the road, people over the nature reserve having full blown games of footie and picnics. No concept pf social distancing ad I won't be surprised when we get a second spike of infections being passed in the community. People have already got it in their head tomorrow will see lockdown relaxed and gone ahead and decided it doesn't matter
		
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I don't think it's a case of people thinking it's being relaxed.  I think people have just had enough. I'm not saying it's right


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## HomerJSimpson (May 9, 2020)

hovis said:



			I don't think it's a case of people thinking it's being relaxed.  I think people have just had enough. I'm not saying it's right
		
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Up to a point I agree but what if we were still at a stage where the rate of infection hadn't dropped and the government imposed say another two weeks. People need to take responsibility for the ir actions or we're never going to break the back of the epidemic


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## Billysboots (May 9, 2020)

hovis said:



			I don't think it's a case of people thinking it's being relaxed.  I think people have just had enough. I'm not saying it's right
		
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The frustrating thing is that if folk could stick with it for a few more weeks we’d have figures like those seen in France today.

We’re a couple of weeks or so behind them, and they seem to have a lid on things now.


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## Junior (May 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The frustrating thing is that if folk could stick with it for a few more weeks we’d have figures like those seen in France today.

We’re a couple of weeks or so behind them, and they seem to have a lid on things now.
		
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France have been very strict with their stance on gatherings.  Enforcing fines and even stricter measures for the reoffenders.

Looking at the pictures on social media today (I hope they were fake).....I feel we'll regress before making progress.


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## Billysboots (May 9, 2020)

Junior said:



			France have been very strict with their stance on gatherings.  Enforcing fines and even stricter measures for the reoffenders.

Looking at the pictures on social media today (I hope they were fake).....I feel we'll regress before making progress.
		
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I’ve read comments from those involved in that street party in Cosham. If what they are saying is true then the images were, shall we say, “manufactured” by the BBC.

Whilst it looks like a jumbled crowd, if you zoom in you will see groups of 3/4 people all standing apart from other groups.

The claim is that the BBC asked them to stand in family groups in that way. It seems we now all know why.

And before a certain someone has a pop at me for being “Anti Aunty”, I only repeat here what has been said by residents in response to the backlash.


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## hovis (May 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Up to a point I agree but what if we were still at a stage where the rate of infection hadn't dropped and the government imposed say another two weeks. People need to take responsibility for the ir actions or we're never going to break the back of the epidemic
		
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Unfortunately homer its a case of "pull the ladder up jack".  I spoke to some lads that where fishing the other day they said
 "we couldn't fish all over the winter because of the floods and just as the rain stopped this kicked in.  By the time the restrictions get lifted the fish will be spawning and we can't fish again until later June".   Not one thought was given for other people


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## Blue in Munich (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, if a few Policemen with loudhailers went into that park they could clear it in no time and some fines handed out would prevent it happening again.
		
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I don't know what your occupation was, but I'd hazard a guess it wasn't policing.


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## Blue in Munich (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			This conversation is chasing red herrings, Speed cameras are nothing to do with it.  Are you're saying we should not fine anyone for anything as it's impossible to hand out the tickets?

Cameras dont give out parking tickets. We do have Police and Community Officers who can do this, it's not as though we need them all on the roads at the moment.
		
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Don't think police officers round this way have been handing out parking tickets for some time.  Mostly done by local authority parking attendants.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 9, 2020)

hovis said:



			Unfortunately homer its a case of "pull the ladder up jack".  I spoke to some lads that where fishing the other day they said
"we couldn't fish all over the winter because of the floods and just as the rain stopped this kicked in.  By the time the restrictions get lifted the fish will be spawning and we can't fish again until later June".   Not one thought was given for other people
		
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Can't argue with that and it feels the genie is out the bottle now and should infection rates rise again severely to the point where another lockdown would be a sensible option I really can't see the public buying into it again. I think a lot of people are thinking it won't happen to me and if it does I'll be ok anyway


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## Blue in Munich (May 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Up to a point I agree but what if we were still at a stage where the rate of infection hadn't dropped and the government imposed say another two weeks. People need to take responsibility for the ir actions or *we're never going to break the back of the epidemic*

Click to expand...

How do we know that we haven't when we don't know the extent of infection.  You'll never convince me that this hasn't been in the country for some months prior to the lockdown.


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## Stuart_C (May 9, 2020)

In many parts of the country theres already a division between police and the public, the latter having very little care or consideration for the fantastic  job they do. Sending them into parks and public spaces to hand fines out will only fuel the situation and turn a certain section of the public against them. 

Ok theres a small % of absolute jobsworth bobbies  across the country but there is in every profession up and down the country. 

I know our Cheif Con is against the heavy handed approach instead opting to work within the communities.


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			How do we know that we haven't when we don't know the extent of infection.  You'll never convince me that this hasn't been in the country for some months prior to the lockdown.
		
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99.9% sure it has been! France have gone on record of saying they have a proven case 27th December 

Sweden are saying they could have had one in November 

Would easily be hidden as flu at first .. undetected .. easily could have got here 

We had an illness rip through work over Xmas. I mean everyone was dropping like flies. I got pulled in to cover the desks and then I went off after that (luckily I was leave that week so didn't have to go sick) we don't have Mickey takers with sick in our department and I'd say 1/3rd of the workforce was off with flu like symptoms

Never been as Ill in my entire life


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## HomerJSimpson (May 9, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			99.9% sure it has been! France have gone on record of saying they have a proven case 27th December

Sweden are saying they could have had one in November

Would easily be hidden as flu at first .. undetected .. easily could have got here

We had an illness rip through work over Xmas. I mean everyone was dropping like flies. I got pulled in to cover the desks and then I went off after that (luckily I was leave that week so didn't have to go sick) we don't have Mickey takers with sick in our department and I'd say 1/3rd of the workforce was off with flu like symptoms

Never been as Ill in my entire life
		
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You're probably right and as you say easy to mis-represent it as flu or a respiratory infection as it affects the lungs. It must have been circulating in China before the Wuhan outbreak and with the ease of global travel these days easy to pass it unknowingly.


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You're probably right and as you say easy to mis-represent it as flu or a respiratory infection as it affects the lungs. It must have been circulating in China before the Wuhan outbreak and with the ease of global travel these days easy to pass it unknowingly.
		
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We have some well traveled people I work with aswell.. one has been to almost 2 3rds of the blooming world . Could have easily brought it back unknowingly 

One guy had it not long ago. He's 27 I believe. Fit as a fiddle ex army lad . He got it bad. Was bed bound for days. He's only just made it back to work now

Another guy had it recently. His minister at his church had a confirmed case (passed away) and he did some DIY for him. His family got it

Spreads like wildfire for sure 

We just got a delivery of masks so I assume the advise is changing 

Have had hand sanitizer for months as the boss was tracking through Europe and ordered it as he super paranoid

Paid off for us


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## HomerJSimpson (May 9, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We have some well traveled people I work with aswell.. one has been to almost 2 3rds of the blooming world . Could have easily brought it back unknowingly

One guy had it not long ago. He's 27 I believe. Fit as a fiddle ex army lad . He got it bad. Was bed bound for days. He's only just made it back to work now

Another guy had it recently. His minister at his church had a confirmed case (passed away) and he did some DIY for him. His family got it

Spreads like wildfire for sure

We just got a delivery of masks so I assume the advise is changing

Have had hand sanitizer for months as the boss was tracking through Europe and ordered it as he super paranoid

Paid off for us
		
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Sounds like you've made some great calls in terms of protecting the workforce as much as possible. The biggest issue will be if masks become compulsory, what will that do to NHS supply? We have already had cases of masks, sanitiser and gloves going walkabouts (rumours about it being agency nurses but all hearsay)


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## pauljames87 (May 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sounds like you've made some great calls in terms of protecting the workforce as much as possible. The biggest issue will be if masks become compulsory, what will that do to NHS supply? We have already had cases of masks, sanitiser and gloves going walkabouts (rumours about it being agency nurses but all hearsay)
		
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I am convinced that they won't affect the NHS supply too much as I can see it being a face covering. Non medical standard. Just something to stop you spreading it if you have it rather than stop catching it

Even home made ones

Leaving the proper ppe where it should be


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## MegaSteve (May 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Cobblers. Sorry, but when most police forces were cut to the bone, they remained focused on community policing because it is still the foundation upon which policing in this country is built. Do you sit all day at your window specifically seeking out the police?

The two biggest bandwagons in this country, and the most misinformed, are that police are no longer visible in the community and that they spend their entire lives targeting the poor, innocent motorist.
		
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Well, I'll be saying cobblers to that... Living in outer suburbia seeing plod in recent times is a very rare sight... Until the last few weeks that is... Locking up all the cop shops and excluding joe public hardly smacks of community policing... And, even when we had the minister for policing as our MP it didn't get any better...


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Don't think police officers round this way have been handing out parking tickets for some time.  Mostly done by local authority parking attendants.
		
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I know that, that's why i put a full stop there. The point has been lost in irrelevant comments and I cant be bothered to go through it again.


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## Stuart_C (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I know that, that's why i put a full stop there. The point has been lost in irrelevant comments and I cant be bothered to go through it again.
		
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it’s not like you to give up so easily Socket........😁😁


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			In many parts of the country theres already a division between police and the public, the latter having very little care or consideration for the fantastic  job they do. Sending them into parks and public spaces to hand fines out will only fuel the situation and turn a certain section of the public against them.

Ok theres a small % of absolute jobsworth bobbies  across the country but there is in every profession up and down the country.

I know our Cheif Con is against the heavy handed approach instead opting to work within the communities.
		
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Police are there to uphold the law.  Stopping the deaths caused by spreading this virus is vital to the country and people are aware of that, I would say 'most' people would support them moving people on who were not distancing  and even handing out fines.


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## SocketRocket (May 9, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			it’s not like you to give up so easily Socket........😁😁
		
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Not giving up, just cant be arsed to keep explaining the same point.


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## Blue in Munich (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont need to.  As I suggested you dont need to police everywhere, a few Police in a park with loudspeakers and handing out some fines will clear it, if you do it consistently the word gets around. One problem is the fines are too small, some £800 first fines would make an impression.  *What stops most people speeding in cars or parking on yellow lines?*

Click to expand...




Blue in Munich said:



			Don't think police officers round this way have been handing out parking tickets for some time.  Mostly done by local authority parking attendants.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



*I know that, that's why i put a full stop there.* The point has been lost in irrelevant comments and I cant be bothered to go through it again.
		
Click to expand...

Not between speeding & parking you didn't, and they are dealt with by two different authorities, hence the comment.


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## Stuart_C (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Police are there to uphold the law.  Stopping the deaths caused by spreading this virus is vital to the country and people are aware of that, I would say 'most' people would support them moving people on who were not distancing  and even handing out fines.
		
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There’s a fine line between upholding the law and alienating the public/communities. The lockdown from the outset has been a joke. 

Are you surprised when theres been leaked plans from the govt prior to a bank holiday weekend to loosen the lockdown from Monday? 

The lockdown has been a half arsed one too, so many mixed messages coming from the govt. 

Its ok you sitting there suggesting it’ll be ok because the OB will have support from majority, you don’t have to deal with the backlash from minority causing problems, within the communities. I’ll it leave to the experts who have a proven track record.


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## Stuart_C (May 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Not giving up, just cant be arsed to keep explaining the same point.
		
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Or you’ve realised you’re wrong on this occassion?


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Cobblers. Sorry, but when most police forces were cut to the bone, they remained focused on community policing because it is still the foundation upon which policing in this country is built. Do you sit all day at your window specifically seeking out the police?

The two biggest bandwagons in this country, and the most misinformed, are that police are no longer visible in the community and that they spend their entire lives targeting the poor, innocent motorist.
		
Click to expand...

It looks like you are the one sitting in your window seeking the police out . Or your patrol car is it that you look out of?
There were two in my road first day of lockdown ,first and last I have seen for a very long time here.
It’s not a bandwagon .
I havnt seen them ! Is that simple enough for you?
The only two cops I see on a regular basis are on the Prescot by pass every few days with a speed camera! That’s a fact.
But you belive what you see I will what I don’t!


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, it's the fines that hurt wherever they come from.
		
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You asked “what stops most people speeding”
Cameras is the answer.
The fines come if you get caught.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			This conversation is chasing red herrings, Speed cameras are nothing to do with it.  Are you're saying we should not fine anyone for anything as it's impossible to hand out the tickets?

Cameras dont give out parking tickets. We do have Police and Community Officers who can do this, it's not as though we need them all on the roads at the moment.
		
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Will you please show me where I said “ we should not fine anyone for anything”


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It looks like you are the one sitting in your window seeking the police out . Or your patrol car is it that you look out of?
There were two in my road first day of lockdown ,first and last I have seen for a very long time here.
It’s not a bandwagon .
I havnt seen them ! Is that simple enough for you?
The only two cops I see on a regular basis are on the Prescot by pass every few days with a speed camera! That’s a fact.
But you belive what you see I will what I don’t!
		
Click to expand...

I've seen so many police since lock down. On the way to work seeing more and more cars patrolling .. they randomly drive past the house aswell


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## hovis (May 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, I'll be saying cobblers to that... Living in outer suburbia seeing plod in recent times is a very rare sight... Until the last few weeks that is... Locking up all the cop shops and excluding joe public hardly smacks of community policing... And, even when we had the minister for policing as our MP it didn't get any better...
		
Click to expand...

The police have just moved into our fire station.  The local policing team do not go on the beat apart from Saturday evenings.  They are snowed under with work and only leave the station for specific reasons.  If anything the response police spend more time out and about that the local policing teams.


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## Fish (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It looks like you are the one sitting in your window seeking the police out . Or your patrol car is it that you look out of?
There were two in my road first day of lockdown ,first and last I have seen for a very long time here.
It’s not a bandwagon .
I havnt seen them ! Is that simple enough for you?
The only two cops I see on a regular basis are on the Prescot by pass every few days with a speed camera! That’s a fact.
But you belive what you see I will what I don’t!
		
Click to expand...

i see loads on every visit to a Wild Bean cafe in fuel stations, they’re like moths to a light bulb 😜

I‘ve also seems plenty of unmarked cars on the motorways over the last few weeks getting stuck into the speedsters, but I’ve not seen any mobile camera vans on the usually bridges, maybe they don’t want to be too visible in these times, but I’d personally like to see more on the roads as the speeding on roads, all roads, is madness at the moment.

The only thing that is slowly reducing the speeding currently, is, with the likes of some stores now opening, with garden centres possibly adding to the list, more people are coming out onto the roads, so the speedsters don’t have the clearer roads as they had 2 weeks or more ago. Some good from a bad situation!


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It looks like you are the one sitting in your window seeking the police out . Or your patrol car is it that you look out of?
There were two in my road first day of lockdown ,first and last I have seen for a very long time here.
It’s not a bandwagon .
I havnt seen them ! Is that simple enough for you?
The only two cops I see on a regular basis are on the Prescot by pass every few days with a speed camera! That’s a fact.
But you belive what you see I will what I don’t!
		
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You’re not looking hard enough. Just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there although, with respect, they won’t spend their entire time on just your street - unless, of course, your local residents are giving them good reason to be there.

If you’re expecting to see a beat officer walking, then don’t because they are something of a rarity. But there’s more than one way of being active in communities.

And, sorry, your suggestion the police these days rely on cameras is absolute codswallop. It was that element of your post I took exception to.


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## IainP (May 10, 2020)

Maybe a different take on things...


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## MegaSteve (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You’re not looking hard enough. Just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there although, with respect, they won’t spend their entire time on just your street - unless, of course, your local residents are giving them good reason to be there.

If you’re expecting to see a beat officer walking, then don’t because they are something of a rarity. But there’s more than one way of being active in communities.

And, sorry, your suggestion the police these days rely on cameras is absolute codswallop. It was that element of your post I took exception to.
		
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With all due respect not sure, seemingly, 'hiding' behind locked doors equates with community policing... Nearly all of the tradesmen, we know, no longer bother, these days, reporting break ins/thefts from their vans/lock ups... Advising it's, for them, not worth the effort relative to the response... Cousin works in a mini-mart and whilst they follow company procedure reporting theft/anti-social behaviour they've grown accustomed to total lack of support/response...

And, yes I have taken this up with local politicians with very little positive response... Think the police have gone the corporate route and now only provide a service where it represents "good value" ...


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## hovis (May 10, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			With all due respect not sure, seemingly, 'hiding' behind locked doors equates with community policing... Nearly all of the tradesmen, we know, no longer bother, these days, reporting break ins/thefts from their vans/lock ups... Advising it's, for them, not worth the effort relative to the response... Cousin works in a mini-mart and whilst they follow company procedure reporting theft/anti-social behaviour they've grown accustomed to total lack of support/response...

And, yes I have taken this up with local politicians with very little positive response... Think the police have gone the corporate route and now only provide a service where it represents "good value" ...
		
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I reported my phone stolen and told them the iemi number or whatever its called is still active.  They said they could trace it but they would only go through that process if it was linked to a bigger crime.  They told me to register my phone on some Web page.


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## Fade and Die (May 10, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I've seen so many police since lock down. On the way to work seeing more and more cars patrolling .. they randomly drive past the house aswell
		
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Paul we both live in Havering but my view is quite different, I’ve not seen any patrol cars and I cannot remember ever seeing foot patrols by either PCSOs or “proper coppers” along our street or over Harrow lodge park. Before lockdown if there was an incident over the park like a mugging then the “parks police” would park their pick up truck in the car park for a few days, but that was it. Policing in Hornchurch is virtually non existent.


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## pauljames87 (May 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Paul we both live in Havering but my view is quite different, I’ve not seen any patrol cars and I cannot remember ever seeing foot patrols by either PCSOs or “proper coppers” along our street or over Harrow lodge park. Before lockdown if there was an incident over the park like a mugging then the “parks police” would park their pick up truck in the car park for a few days, but that was it. Policing in Hornchurch is virtually non existent.
		
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I've seen a lot drive past the house but I live on a main road I'm unsure if you do so could be why. Also with me working a lot I'm seeing them on my journeys almost daily 

Plus we don't know how many unmarked cars their are 

406 defo has its share of marked cars atm


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

I really am not going to become embroiled in a debate about policing, other than to say it is exceptionally easy to criticise that which you don’t really understand.

Policing is one of the most complex jobs there is, with officers expected to be all things to all people. Those who choose the career immediately make themselves fair game to the press, media, public and politicians to vilify, that vilification often being based on nothing other than ill informed speculation.

To touch on one or two comments, a good deal of what is referred to as volume crime is classed these days as non-attendant meaning, yes, you’ve guessed it, that you may not receive a visit. That is a direct result of the huge expansion in what the police are now expected to take responsibility for following demands from you, the public. Put simply, nobody can be in two places at once, never mind half a dozen, and if a physical officer presence at a crime scene won’t bring any value to an investigation, then time and resources are better spent elsewhere.

Policing has evolved enormously in the last twenty years or so, much of it not to the liking of the police themselves. But the days of Dixon Of Dock Green, and bobbies on every street corner, are long gone.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			There’s a fine line between upholding the law and alienating the public/communities. The lockdown from the outset has been a joke.

Are you surprised when theres been leaked plans from the govt prior to a bank holiday weekend to loosen the lockdown from Monday?

The lockdown has been a half arsed one too, so many mixed messages coming from the govt.

Its ok you sitting there suggesting it’ll be ok because the OB will have support from majority, you don’t have to deal with the backlash from minority causing problems, within the communities. I’ll it leave to the experts who have a proven track record.
		
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Yes, it is OK for me to sit here making suggestions on how things could be improved, it's called 'holding to account' just like so many here are saying their criticism of the Government is holding to account.  If we dont want the Law upholding then dont bother with Police, upholding the rules on lockdown is not a popularity contest.  If you dont like people holding the Police to account then dont use it on the Government either.

Regarding your comments on the Governments leaks I agree 100%  it's wrong and creating problems.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Or you’ve realised you’re wrong on this occassion?
		
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Or maybe I havent.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2020)

In this country we have policing by consent, by and large it works and as a result, it has encouraged the politicians of all sides to cut the numbers of officers to save money. 

The problem is that when a significant proportion of the population have had enough (rightly or wrongly) it is very difficult for the police to do much about it

The politicians have a tricky balancing act to perform, with the needs of the vulnerable on one hand and the wishes of the rest of society on the other

Get it wrong either way and either people die or there is public unrest.

Glad I’m not a politician


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## Fade and Die (May 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			In this country we have policing by consent, by and large it works and as a result, it has encouraged the politicians of all sides to cut the numbers of officers to save money.

The problem is that when a significant proportion of the population have had enough (rightly or wrongly) it is very difficult for the police to do much about it

The politicians have a tricky balancing act to perform, with the needs of the vulnerable on one hand and the wishes of the rest of society on the other

Get it wrong either way and either people die or there is public unrest.

Glad I’m not a politician
		
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It’s being reported that since Big Ange eased measures in Ze Fatherland cases have started going up (good luck with that Bunderliga thingy!)
Isn't it obvious that would happen when we're talking about a virus which is transmitted via human contact ?

Which is why a lot of people are now questioning the lockdown measures as they are simply delaying, rather than halting, the spread. 

Do we continue to keep the present measures in place until a vaccine is discovered, which seems to be a long way off and do further damage to an already battered economy, and of course the livelihoods of many people. Or do we accept the fact that most people are going to catch it at some time in the future and try to get back to some sort of normality ?

Answers on a postcard to No 10 Downing


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Isn't it obvious that would happen when we're talking about a virus which is transmitted via human contact ?

Which is why a lot of people are now questioning the lockdown measures as they are simply delaying, rather than halting, the spread.
		
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I partly agree, but if the virus has nowhere to go, because you limit personal contact, the spread ultimately has to die out. 

That’s the whole purpose of lockdown and social distancing. If the R number stays below 1 then the virus diminishes.

I’m certainly not saying that is going to happen, but that’s the underpinning theory.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2020)

Something in not quite getting, can someone explain

We have been in lockdown for 7 weeks now

The virus has an incubation period of up to 14 days and if you get it, then you have it for 2 or 3 weeks.

So we should be seeing a dramatic reduction in both new cases and deaths, yes both figures have improved, but both should be nearer zero by now.

Where are people still catching it from?

Is it from Hospitals, carehomes or the wider public at large?


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## bobmac (May 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Do we continue to keep the present measures in place until a vaccine is discovered, which seems to be a long way off
		
Click to expand...

How long is a long way off?


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Something in not quite getting, can someone explain

We have been in lockdown for 7 weeks now

The virus has an incubation period of up to 14 days and if you get it, then you have it for 2 or 3 weeks.

So we should be seeing a dramatic reduction in both new cases and deaths, yes both figures have improved, but both should be nearer zero by now.

Where are people still catching it from?

Is it from Hospitals, carehomes or the wider public at large?
		
Click to expand...

At least one scientist is saying the community spread is now likely to be very low. The suggestion is the virus, and the spread of it, is now confined largely to hospitals and care homes.

I thought the same of figures in countries like France, which seemed to stay on a high-ish plateau for a week or so, before starting to drop dramatically. I think in France yesterday they reported 80 deaths and less than 500 new infections, an enormous improvement on where they were not long ago.

Whilst the figures are important, we need to know the context to them, and at the moment we simply don’t. All we see are depressingly high numbers. But I take some comfort in the fact that, whilst our daily deaths seem to be fairly constant, the figure now includes all settings. If we used the same method as a month ago (hospitals only) I suspect the numbers would now be far lower - perhaps even as low as they were a month ago.

It’s all about context and the facts behind the figures.


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## Imurg (May 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Something in not quite getting, can someone explain

We have been in lockdown for 7 weeks now

The virus has an incubation period of up to 14 days and if you get it, then you have it for 2 or 3 weeks.

So we should be seeing a dramatic reduction in both new cases and deaths, yes both figures have improved, but both should be nearer zero by now.

Where are people still catching it from?

Is it from Hospitals, carehomes or the wider public at large?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure someone on here was saying that the majority of infections are from hospitals and care homes..outside of that infection rates are quite low


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## bobmac (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Cyclists 

Click to expand...

Scottish or English?


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I'm sure someone on here was saying that the majority of infections are from hospitals and care homes..outside of that infection rates are quite low
		
Click to expand...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...tals-and-care-homes-professor-claims-11985343


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## Jamesbrown (May 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



			How long is a long way off?
		
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Well still no vaccine for SARS or MERS which are of the coronavirus family. 
How long you got?


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You’re not looking hard enough. Just because you don’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there although, with respect, they won’t spend their entire time on just your street - unless, of course, your local residents are giving them good reason to be there.

If you’re expecting to see a beat officer walking, then don’t because they are something of a rarity. But there’s more than one way of being active in communities.

And, sorry, your suggestion the police these days rely on cameras is absolute codswallop. It was that element of your post I took exception to.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but I still disagree.
I would not assume what it’s like for somebody else.
I am just letting you know what it’s like here .
A quick google shows a record number of speed camera fines were handed out last year in the Uk 2.02 Million.
That’s the question I answered from SR about Speeding..

There’s a reason for no beat bobbies.
All my local Police stations have been closed.
And to be honest I don’t really know where the nearest one is now.
The City centre I think 6 miles away. Transport depot Edge Lane. 
That’s a big beat for anyone.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I really am not going to become embroiled in a debate about policing, other than to say it is exceptionally easy to criticise that which you don’t really understand.

Policing is one of the most complex jobs there is, with officers expected to be all things to all people. Those who choose the career immediately make themselves fair game to the press, media, public and politicians to vilify, that vilification often being based on nothing other than ill informed speculation.

To touch on one or two comments, a good deal of what is referred to as volume crime is classed these days as non-attendant meaning, yes, you’ve guessed it, that you may not receive a visit. That is a direct result of the huge expansion in what the police are now expected to take responsibility for following demands from you, the public. Put simply, nobody can be in two places at once, never mind half a dozen, and if a physical officer presence at a crime scene won’t bring any value to an investigation, then time and resources are better spent elsewhere.

Policing has evolved enormously in the last twenty years or so, much of it not to the liking of the police themselves. But the days of Dixon Of Dock Green, and bobbies on every street corner, are long gone.
		
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That’s why you rely heavily on CCTV but your saying you don’t??
Spent quite some time on jury service couple of years ago and EVERY  trial relied heavily on Cameras as there was no other evidence of note.
Just my experience , but feel free to tell me I don’t understand it.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			In all seriousness, though, my guess is that we just haven't been strict enough with the lockdown. If you compare what they did in Spain and Italy they seem a tad draconian compared to us but appear to have been more successful.

As an example (and to blame cyclists again) one thing I noticed while out for a walk last weekend was that the "Just Eat" public hire bikes are still out and being widely used. Which seems madness to me.
		
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Walking is just as bad as cycling surely??


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## bobmac (May 10, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Well still no vaccine for SARS or MERS which are of the coronavirus family.
How long you got?
		
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Good news then...
Human trials began almost 3 weeks ago.

_*A million doses of their experimental Covid-19 vaccine could be ready as early as September, Oxford scientists say *_

_On April 23, a potential coronavirus vaccine being developed at the University of Oxford began human trials.

Now a study involving up to 510 healthy volunteers between 18 and 55 is under way in Oxford and Southampton, with three further sites likely to be added.

Scientists working on the vaccine have said they could know within six weeks whether it will work. 

Sir John Bell, Regius Professor of Medicine at Oxford University, said “several hundred” Britons have now been given the experimental jab, with hopes that “signals” about whether it works could emerge by mid-June._

The normal procedure would be to wait and see if the vaccine works, then start production of millions of doses. 
To speed up that process they have already started production.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

Kaz said:



			For the avoidance of doubt, I'm joking about cyclists. The issue with the hire bikes is that they are shared so when you take one for all you know it has just been used by someone with the virus. I'm amazed anyone is still using them.

Although there is an interesting study that does show cycling and running is potentially worse for spreading the virus than walking. Something to do with the size of the area around an infected person that contains virus which is bigger the faster you are moving. The suggestion was that walking past someone at 2m is probably fine but if running you should give them more even space than that.
		
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Yes I thought so.
But you just can’t teach idiot!
I would not go near a shared bike atm.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Something in not quite getting, can someone explain

We have been in lockdown for 7 weeks now

The virus has an incubation period of up to 14 days and if you get it, then you have it for 2 or 3 weeks.

So we should be seeing a dramatic reduction in both new cases and deaths, yes both figures have improved, but both should be nearer zero by now.

Where are people still catching it from?

Is it from Hospitals, carehomes or the wider public at large?
		
Click to expand...

Take your point, but at the moment of lockdown the virus was in a lot of people. Not just those in hospital or home with symptoms. And in one day( before lockdown), those people exponentially spread it. Imagine one person doesn't know they've got it, goes to work via public transport, goes to the shops, then home, then the pub etc. So many get it and then off they go.
Longish time before lockdown starts to reduce that spread drastically.
May I  suggest people still catching it, not so much from other people not being close to them, I.e social distancing, but from contact with surfaces touched by those with it.
Shopping, Mail, packaging almost all plastic etc.  
How long is the virus active on these surfaces?
 - If we have muppets not too worried about SD, how worried are they gonna be about not touching surfaces, or cleaning them before touching. These muppets almost pride themselves on being "cavalier" about this matter. You can almost hear the words "" what a fuss you're making" etc.

I'd still bet on your last option.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 10, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Well still no vaccine for SARS or MERS which are of the coronavirus family.
How long you got?
		
Click to expand...

That's because there isn't any urgency with SARS etc. Before covid it wasn't too bothersome at all- This covid 19!is obviously a different beastie altogether, and so, the effort to find the vaccine will be much much urgent and ongoing.
There have been human trials going on for week or two at Oxford Uni.
The vaccine is being made in quantity in case it is effective. When human trials are happening, that is quite a long way down the development road.

That is just this Country. Many others are doing the same.

They are also trailing  existing licensed medicines to see if they can reduce the serious effects of this virus. Doesn't cure it but might stop it killing you.
That is being trialled at Chelsea and Westminster hospitals.
Other countries doing likewise.
Much being done behind the scenes at a "wartime" rate.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Well still no vaccine for SARS or MERS which are of the coronavirus family.
How long you got?
		
Click to expand...

These didnt become World pandemics so the same resources wernt used to find a vaccine.


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## pendodave (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Take your point, but at the moment of lockdown the virus was in a lot of people. Not just those in hospital or home with symptoms. And in one day( before lockdown), those people exponentially spread it. Imagine one person doesn't know they've got it, goes to work via public transport, goes to the shops, then home, then the pub etc. So many get it and then off they go.
Longish time before lockdown starts to reduce that spread drastically.
May I  suggest people still catching it, not so much from other people not being close to them, I.e social distancing, but from contact with surfaces touched by those with it.
Shopping, Mail, packaging almost all plastic etc. 
How long is the virus active on these surfaces?
- If we have muppets not too worried about SD, how worried are they gonna be about not touching surfaces, or cleaning them before touching. These muppets almost pride themselves on being "cavalier" about this matter. You can almost hear the words "" what a fuss you're making" etc.

I'd still bet on your last option.
		
Click to expand...

I read somewhere (I know, but I think it was legit) that a lot of the new cases are in the care sector (inmates and staff) so not impacted by the lockdown.
Regarding transmission, my own experience is that the distancing advice is followed a lot more closely than hand washing before touching the face. Which is probably the wrong way round in terms of effectiveness.


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## SocketRocket (May 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I read somewhere (I know, but I think it was legit) that a lot of the new cases are in the care sector (inmates and staff) so not impacted by the lockdown.
Regarding transmission, my own experience is that the distancing advice is followed a lot more closely than hand washing before touching the face. Which is probably the wrong way round in terms of effectiveness.
		
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The staff go home, pass it on to people they meet, they pass it on and so on and so forth.


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## Hobbit (May 10, 2020)

Spain has its lowest deaths number for almost 8 week = 143
It has its highest day for recoveries.

It also has its lowest day for quite some time of new cases. However, it made very sad reading that 42% of the new cases are healthcare workers.


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## pendodave (May 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The staff go home, pass it on to people they meet, they pass it on and so on and so forth.
		
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Indeed. It was the point I was trying to make in answer to the question about why new cases continue despite a lockdown being in place. Sadly, I don't see any particular lockdown strategy changing this scenario.


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## clubchamp98 (May 10, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Indeed. It was the point I was trying to make in answer to the question about why new cases continue despite a lockdown being in place. Sadly, I don't see any particular lockdown strategy changing this scenario.
		
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I think the word LOCKDOWN is very misleading ,like a lot of the government “ rules”.
If people can go out walking, cycling , shopping etc. Another word is needed because lockdown it isn’t correct.


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## Blue in Munich (May 10, 2020)

So, this Corona virus outbreak that started in March...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52589449


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## drdel (May 10, 2020)

^^^ And the thread theme is ?


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			^^^ And the thread theme is ?
		
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Not entirely sure I can remember.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 10, 2020)

Ok guys
Can we put the political stuff on the political thread and leave this one for how the virus/ lockdown is affecting you

Thank you


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## Italian outcast (May 10, 2020)

They have started doing serological tests here in the Bergamo region
In one of the worst affected valleys north of Bergamo - where my SIL & BIL live (both now negative after being +ve) *62% *of people tested have evidence of having had covid (i.e., antibodies) 
Food for thought


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## DRW (May 10, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			They have started doing serological tests here in the Bergamo region
In one of the worst affected valleys north of Bergamo - where my SIL & BIL live (both now negative after being +ve) *62% *of people tested have evidence of having had covid (i.e., antibodies)
Food for thought
		
Click to expand...

That's a massive percentage, by far the largest % result, that I have read about. In some ways hopefully good news or the area or maybe light at the end of the tunnel as such.

Do you happen to have a link for the results or write up, would like to read about it(numbers tested, results etc) ?


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## Italian outcast (May 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			That's a massive percentage, by far the largest % result, that I have read about. In some ways hopefully good news or the area or maybe light at the end of the tunnel as such.

Do you happen to have a link for the results or write up, would like to read about it(numbers tested, results etc) ?
		
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I don't - its in one of the local papers today - but i'll probably find it online at some point - will share when i come across a good 
I agree its a surprising & staggeringly high number - based on just over 1000 people tested - but that valley was hit hard very hard in terms of cases and deaths in late march
They are ramping up serological testing across Bergamo now - so we may get a better and more balanced picture reasonably soon


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## Billysboots (May 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Billy
There is only one reason for this method of investigation. There are not enough officers as against the prevalence of the crimes.
Because of that, prioritising is practised and so officers do not attend.
I won't go into the benefits of them attending as they did in the past, but it is not the fact that what happens now is the best way to deal with the burglary.
As for failing to trace property which is traceable ( the phone example) , that is not right. It may be policy but it isn't the right way to police.
		
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Totally agree with everything you say. When I joined we went to everything and I was proud to say I always went the extra mile, because it’s what I would have expected myself.

As you clearly know, police officers these days and, by extension, the public they serve, have been the victims of political ideology dressed up as austerity.

I don’t like much of it any more than most, but I won’t stand idly by and allow unwarranted criticism when the targets of that criticism shouldn’t be the police service, but those who have largely dismantled it.


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## hovis (May 10, 2020)

Fish said:



View attachment 30580

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😂😂😂😂😂


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## hovis (May 10, 2020)

.


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## Slab (May 11, 2020)

We’ve just made 14 clear days since our last new case was found (there’s still a fella running round who had it but might've been cleared to leave hospital too early) And no deaths since 27th April so 13 days and counting. And there are now just 2 known cases in the country, both receiving treatment

Asking myself what this means & can only think of three possibilities 
Folks are ill/dying from it but not being tested
Folks have it at home but none require medical treatment
The stringent social and economic curfew has dam near eradicated it from a 1.3 mil population

I can’t believe the 1st is happening & I don't believe that the only people to have it just happen to be asymptomatic (or self-treatable with paracetamol) so maybe because it what I want I’m going with the last option. I have to believe 7½ weeks of tough curfew & closed borders have been worth it (& there’s still at least 19 days of it to go)


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## Stuart_C (May 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Does not surprise me one bit 

They will open some jobs and drop people back into them .. furlough the gig economy etc longer and let things that can operate a bit open up. Fast foods are making a come back slowly 

Get as many people off furlough as possible to keep costs down

They will want to protect the economy
		
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We bailed the banks out to the tune of £500bn, Furlough costs £13bn a month and £104bn to date. 

Stopping furlough could cost more lives. 

Dont forget Mr Sunak has already said it'll all have to be paid back one way or another. There is no free lunch.


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## pauljames87 (May 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			We bailed the banks out to the tune of £500bn, Furlough costs £13bn a month and £104bn to date. 

Stopping furlough could cost more lives. 

Dont forget Mr Sunak has already said it'll all have to be paid back one way or another. There is no free lunch.
		
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Indeed no free lunch, they will make sure of it

Socialist on a budget 

I read somewhere yest (can't find ATM I will try but on parent duties) that too many people took up furlong (in their eyes ofc) as it was more designed to help jobs remain after this but some things keeping during this was idea

For example I haven't seen my window cleaner throughout this. Easy to social distance. Can do bank only payments .. etc but I believe he furloughed himself , the gov didn't expect everyone to grind to a halt .. 

MC Donald's for me was a pure money decision.. nothing on health (apart from better for people not eating it) the NHS struggling after long shifts could just go drive through pick something up as shops now closed or empty (at the time) but nope they closed meaning more people not getting an income when they could have easily adapted to social distance 

(Like they are now with re opening a few drive through onlys)


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## need_my_wedge (May 11, 2020)

New cases in Whuhan reported this morning for the first time in about a month, along with a spike in cases in Germany following a relax in the lockdown.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Indeed no free lunch, they will make sure of it

Socialist on a budget

I read somewhere yest (can't find ATM I will try but on parent duties) that too many people took up furlong (in their eyes ofc) as it was more designed to help jobs remain after this but some things keeping during this was idea

For example I haven't seen my window cleaner throughout this. Easy to social distance. Can do bank only payments .. etc but I believe he furloughed himself , the gov didn't expect everyone to grind to a halt ..

MC Donald's for me was a pure money decision.. nothing on health (apart from better for people not eating it) the NHS struggling after long shifts could just go drive through pick something up as shops now closed or empty (at the time) but nope they closed meaning more people not getting an income when they could have easily adapted to social distance

(Like they are now with re opening a few drive through onlys)
		
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The issue for businesses, I'm one of them, is that it is simply not economical to keep current staff levels as demand as dropped so significantly. Furlough has meant that we are not laying off staff, delaying the point long enough where we hope demand will return.

If you take your McDonalds example, every site is a franchise so an individual business. To keep them open for drive thru's only, with few people driving, means keeping sufficient staff for a 24hr operation to cook, serve, clean etc. The money coming through would simply not be there so the logical decision is to close and furlough staff. Why should they keep open, make a loss? They are a business not a charity. Now they are relaxing the driving rules we may see some start to open. They will not need anywhere near the number of staff still so does the franchise make the bulk of them redundant or keep them on furlough, hoping the next phase is reached and they can bring them all back? 

Furlough has been a brilliant scheme and it is a price worth paying. The alternative would be grim indeed.


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## drdel (May 11, 2020)

I've told you before being sensible and logical doesn't fit the uniformed lazy moaning. 🤔🤔


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## pauljames87 (May 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The issue for businesses, I'm one of them, is that it is simply not economical to keep current staff levels as demand as dropped so significantly. Furlough has meant that we are not laying off staff, delaying the point long enough where we hope demand will return.

If you take your McDonalds example, every site is a franchise so an individual business. To keep them open for drive thru's only, with few people driving, means keeping sufficient staff for a 24hr operation to cook, serve, clean etc. The money coming through would simply not be there so the logical decision is to close and furlough staff. Why should they keep open, make a loss? They are a business not a charity. Now they are relaxing the driving rules we may see some start to open. They will not need anywhere near the number of staff still so does the franchise make the bulk of them redundant or keep them on furlough, hoping the next phase is reached and they can bring them all back? 

Furlough has been a brilliant scheme and it is a price worth paying. The alternative would be grim indeed.
		
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However your own statement covers it. Use it correctly. You could furlough staff to cover that aren't needed whilst demand is lower etc

Back to MC Donald's as the example..say reduced hours. 11am-11pm  drive through only you can furlough some staff correctly and keep some for opening.

Furloughing the lot wasn't the idea when your business could remain open

MC Donald's also do Uber eats. Very popular in London.

I know TGI has re opened with people able to book slots to come get food cooked for them and put in their boot (limited menu)

Blanket closures ground everything to a halt.


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## Imurg (May 11, 2020)

It seems I may be off work until early July at the earliest.........potentially later than that if the numbers don't  play ball........


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## Lord Tyrion (May 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			However your own statement covers it. Use it correctly. You could furlough staff to cover that aren't needed whilst demand is lower etc

Back to MC Donald's as the example..say reduced hours. 11am-11pm  drive through only you can furlough some staff correctly and keep some for opening.

Furloughing the lot wasn't the idea when your business could remain open

MC Donald's also do Uber eats. Very popular in London.

I know TGI has re opened with people able to book slots to come get food cooked for them and put in their boot (limited menu)

Blanket closures ground everything to a halt.
		
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Closing en masse was the logical business move in the circumstances. Business owners made commerical decisions based on the figures. If they could have stayed open and made money, safely, then they would have done but if the govt thought companies would stay open to provide a service and make a loss then they don't know business. 

What you are suggesting their thought process was is an ideal, a theory. If they had run this past companies, they barely had the time, then universally they would have been told what would happen in reality. You can argue whether that is in the spirit of the scheme but when it comes down to business survival then the spirit of matters goes out the window,


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

I was thinking this morning that, whenever the timing, getting back to anything like normal after this will be really difficult. Life has taken on a new routine and many (including me) have slipped into a more relaxed way of life. Furlough is one (small for me) element but huge for many others. I sense there could be a general malaise and reluctance to get back in gear and back into a more normal pace of life.


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## bobmac (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I was thinking this morning that, whenever the timing, getting back to anything like normal after this will be really difficult. Life has taken on a new routine and many (including me) have slipped into a more relaxed way of life. Furlough is one (small for me) element but huge for many others. I sense there could be a general malaise and reluctance to get back in gear and back into a more normal pace of life.
		
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I know the feeling.
I can't decide whether to have a late breakfast or an early lunch


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## HomerJSimpson (May 11, 2020)

We've still got over 20 patients in the unit and predictions of a spike next weekend and the following week after last nights news. Could be interesting as we've scaled back out of the theatre space we took over and were looking to move out of theatre recovery today so they could have the whole area back and start operating fully. Not sure how of the contingency plans if the spike does come again


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I know the feeling.
I can't decide whether to have a late breakfast or an early lunch 

Click to expand...

An every day dilemna as I might first eat at 10am or could be 2pm...when my days have more structure that dictates meal times!


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## Slab (May 11, 2020)

15th consecutive day with no new cases and the last 2 active cases have been released, so for the first time we have zero known cases in the country 👍🏻


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## pauljames87 (May 11, 2020)

This bit of the document is going to be very very hard 

When 1st June comes and if they allow this (please do of course) we have to basically pick my parents (who drive us mental but we love them) or my wife's parents (who my wife is very close to and I don't hate my in laws!!) 

That's decision 1. That will make it hard .. my wife needs her mum.. easy choice but that means my mum doesn't get her only grand daughter

My sister will choose her in law's she closer with them .. so that's her out the question 

My mother in law then will have to pick between seeing her parents or her only granddaughter

She will pick us. However that will make them suffer as she's one of 4 and is only one who makes the effort .

Sad times


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## SocketRocket (May 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 30610


This bit of the document is going to be very very hard

When 1st June comes and if they allow this (please do of course) we have to basically pick my parents (who drive us mental but we love them) or my wife's parents (who my wife is very close to and I don't hate my in laws!!)

That's decision 1. That will make it hard .. my wife needs her mum.. easy choice but that means my mum doesn't get her only grand daughter

My sister will choose her in law's she closer with them .. so that's her out the question

My mother in law then will have to pick between seeing her parents or her only granddaughter

She will pick us. However that will make them suffer as she's one of 4 and is only one who makes the effort .

Sad times
		
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Families Eh!


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

My amazing hairdresser messaged me last night to say she was planning to book clients in from Wed. One client a day and everything cleaned down between clients. Hallelujah.

She's just messaged to say the governing body (National Hair Association) have said nothing until 4th July at the earliest


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			My amazing hairdresser messaged me last night to say she was planning to book clients in from Wed. One client a day and everything cleaned down between clients. Hallelujah.

She's just messaged to say the governing body (National Hair Association) have said nothing until 4th July at the earliest 

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Will you and her be wearing PPE? surely the danger is her proximity to you and vice versa, not her hairdressing stuff?


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Will you and her be wearing PPE? surely the danger is her proximity to you and vice versa, not her hairdressing stuff?
		
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It's not happening so all irrelevant really.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			It's not happening so all irrelevant really.
		
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Pity, if she’d of worked it out women and hairdressers all over the UK would see her as a legend.


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## Papas1982 (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Pity, if she’d of worked it out women and hairdressers all over the UK would see her as a legend.

Click to expand...


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## AmandaJR (May 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Pity, if she’d of worked it out women and hairdressers all over the UK would see her as a legend.

Click to expand...

I think she got over excited bless her. Really bad timing as she was just leaving the salon she worked at to go solo/mobile so I imagine she's not had any income or certainly no furlough pay.


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## pauljames87 (May 12, 2020)

Not sure what to make of the latest really

I suggested to my wife she goes to the park and meets her mum on their own 2m apart it's allowed 

She would feel more comfortable doing that in the garden. Which has side access. And less people use it than the park

But that's not allowed 

Imagine doing it then getting the cops round to have a word.. yeah it felt safer than going to a park where I can walk past 100 people to do same thing as walking past nobody 

Frustrating for sure


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## Del_Boy (May 12, 2020)

Hopefully someone you know get lucky on the giveaway below

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/...000-flights-healthcare-doctors-medical-staff/


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## Slab (May 12, 2020)

There is clearly a section of society that pays an additional tax or medical insurance or some other contribution that entitles them to ignore lock-down rules while others must remain compliant. 
My irritation is that they need to wear some kind of vest or headgear so that the less fortunate among us can identify them & we’ll know why they are doing what they're doing

I’d suggest this:


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## garyinderry (May 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Not sure what to make of the latest really

I suggested to my wife she goes to the park and meets her mum on their own 2m apart it's allowed

She would feel more comfortable doing that in the garden. Which has side access. And less people use it than the park

But that's not allowed

Imagine doing it then getting the cops round to have a word.. yeah it felt safer than going to a park where I can walk past 100 people to do same thing as walking past nobody

Frustrating for sure
		
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We have also been told to use our common sense.  

If it makes sense to keep away from a crowded park then do so.   There have been 1000s of ppl that have done a quick visit to ones garden keeping extra distance. Including many in government.


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## AmandaJR (May 12, 2020)

Watched "Hospital" on the BBC last night and very sobering. In the past there has been too much of a "political" element to the programme...lots of talk about lack of funding/resources etc but this really did focus on life on the front line during a pandemic.

Hats off to the staff - incredibly tough working conditions for many reasons.

Second part tonight.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Watched "Hospital" on the BBC last night and very sobering. In the past there has been too much of a "political" element to the programme...lots of talk about lack of funding/resources etc but this really did focus on life on the front line during a pandemic.

Hats off to the staff - incredibly tough working conditions for many reasons.

Second part tonight.
		
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One of our good friends is a theatre sister but due to there being no elective surgery she's working in ITU. She has worked there before, and in total has almost 40 years experience. She is displaying some serious "battle fatigue." I know some don't like the comparison with war, and I don't view it that way either. I just can't think of a better way of explaining it.

At the start of it all she knew what she was going into but its just part of the job for her. A week ago she was seriously, desperately upset at the amount of deaths in ITU. This last few days we're lucky to get a response to Whatsapp messages, and when we do they're clipped and lacking in the emotion we're used to, e.g. no daft emoji's.

We will continue with our usual messages, and include the usual 'madness' between friends, but our hearts are breaking for her.


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## AmandaJR (May 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			One of our good friends is a theatre sister but due to there being no elective surgery she's working in ITU. She has worked there before, and in total has almost 40 years experience. She is displaying some serious "battle fatigue." I know some don't like the comparison with war, and I don't view it that way either. I just can't think of a better way of explaining it.

At the start of it all she knew what she was going into but its just part of the job for her. A week ago she was seriously, desperately upset at the amount of deaths in ITU. This last few days we're lucky to get a response to Whatsapp messages, and when we do they're clipped and lacking in the emotion we're used to, e.g. no daft emoji's.

We will continue with our usual messages, and include the usual 'madness' between friends, but our hearts are breaking for her.
		
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Must be so tough. The programme did feature a couple of patients who I was sure were going to succumb but both defied the odds. In that respect it wasn't as dark as it could have been. The interraction with families is so tough for them - over the telephone rather than in person...

Plus the PPE looks damned uncomfortable and one nurse was struggling with the heat and also feeling out of his depth. Admiration for them knows no bounds.

Hopefully your friend will come through this and be back to her old self although I'm sure many will feel the effects for a very long time.


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## drdel (May 12, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Not sure what to make of the latest really

I suggested to my wife she goes to the park and meets her mum on their own 2m apart it's allowed

She would feel more comfortable doing that in the garden. Which has side access. And less people use it than the park

But that's not allowed

Imagine doing it then getting the cops round to have a word.. yeah it felt safer than going to a park where I can walk past 100 people to do same thing as walking past nobody

Frustrating for sure
		
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But its only 2 weeks to 1st of June and a further relaxing of advice if we keep to the SD for a bit longer.


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## Reemul (May 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			But its only 2 weeks to 1st of June and a further relaxing of advice if we keep to the SD for a bit longer.
		
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Yeah but...

My brother-in-law lives about a mile away, I can call him up and from tomorrow we can go up our golf club and play a round of golf for 4 hours as long as we stay 2m away from each other but apparently I cannot sit in his garden with him for 30 mins sitting 2m+ away from each other.

This is the stuff that gets people to not follow the rules and try to justify it


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## SocketRocket (May 12, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Yeah but...

My brother-in-law lives about a mile away, I can call him up and from tomorrow we can go up our golf club and play a round of golf for 4 hours as long as we stay 2m away from each other but apparently I cannot sit in his garden with him for 30 mins sitting 2m+ away from each other.

This is the stuff that gets people to not follow the rules and try to justify it
		
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Shouldnt we be glad that we have moved on a bit.


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## Hobbit (May 12, 2020)

"How has it affected you."

I've grown up this last 60+ years within a few miles of the sea. As a kid I was chased out of plenty of fishing boats, and my first career choice was as a radio operator MN. 

Earlier today we went down to Mojacar Playa  - courtesy of the Spanish version of lockdown our first trip out together. There was a bill to pay, and I needed a new pair of sandals. We pulled up at our usual parking spot, about 2 yards from the edge of the beach. Looking out to sea I filled up and my bottom lip quivered. I stood for 10 mins just looking out to sea. Maybe its salt water in my veins. And maybe lockdown has hurt more than I thought.

Anyway, onwards and upwards.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 12, 2020)

On the plus side we've now completely decamped from our escalation spaces in theatres and recovery meaning all our Covid patients are being house on the main ICU so numbers coming down (now 20). Not sure what happens if we see a big spike similar to Germany and other countries that have relaxed their lockdown rules as I think the plan is to deep clean and get these functioning again as operating theatres asap


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## GB72 (May 12, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Yeah but...

My brother-in-law lives about a mile away, I can call him up and from tomorrow we can go up our golf club and play a round of golf for 4 hours as long as we stay 2m away from each other but apparently I cannot sit in his garden with him for 30 mins sitting 2m+ away from each other.

This is the stuff that gets people to not follow the rules and try to justify it
		
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At least some explanation this morning. Some people do not have gardens and so too easier a leap of logic to think, OK in the house is fine. Also many have gardens that can only be accessed through the house and, again, the temptation to linger in the house is pretty strong if the weather is not great or in any household, to head inside if it starts raining. The important part is keeping the meetings outside where it is safer. I am sure garden meetings will come soon enough but these are the first steps and needed to be steps that could be rolled back quickly without reversing a massive change in mindset in the population if the figures start to rise so, for me, it will be a walk up to the local sports field for a chat.


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## drdel (May 12, 2020)

GB72 said:



			At least some explanation this morning. Some people do not have gardens and so too easier a leap of logic to think, OK in the house is fine. Also many have gardens that can only be accessed through the house and, again, the temptation to linger in the house is pretty strong if the weather is not great or in any household, to head inside if it starts raining. The important part is keeping the meetings outside where it is safer. I am sure garden meetings will come soon enough but these are the first steps and needed to be steps that could be rolled back quickly without reversing a massive change in mindset in the population if the figures start to rise so, for me, it will be a walk up to the local sports field for a chat.
		
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Yup, inside houses is one of worst places for transmission. You are in a closed space for more than the 10 to 15mins and 2m might be hard to maintain.


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## MegaSteve (May 12, 2020)

Herself not a happy lady... Seems the masses have taken Boris's announcement as the nod to resume shopping as family and friends groups... And, the shops, having previously been monitoring it in a professional manner, now not bothering to make any attempt to control it...


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## pauljames87 (May 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yup, inside houses is one of worst places for transmission. You are in a closed space for more than the 10 to 15mins and 2m might be hard to maintain.
		
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However people's nannies and cleaners can go back to work (in there homes). Wear a face covering etc 

Seen a few "jokes" going around twitter of people considering hiring their kids as cleaners so they can see them.

1st June may be "only" a few weeks away but even then what their saying is one family will be allowed to join another (maybe) to produce a bubble. But no more than one other .

4th July at earliest is when further restrictions may be lifted.


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## pauljames87 (May 12, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52641373

My house is now for sale. By appointment only. Friends and family may view


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## ColchesterFC (May 12, 2020)

Had an email from the kids school today explaining what will be happening when the school reopens. Part of the email mentions that social distancing won't be in place........

"It seems that children will not be socially distanced but instead be kept in insular groups of up to 15 children which will be kept separate from other groups in school, although how this will look at (*school name*) is very much undecided."

This seems another area where the rules are confused. A group of up to 16 people (15 kids and a teacher/support assistant) can be in a situation with no social distancing in an enclosed space, which we are told is the likeliest way to pass on the infection, and yet you aren't able to meet more than one person from another household in a park with social distancing measures in place.


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## ExRabbit (May 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Had an email from the kids school today explaining what will be happening when the school reopens. Part of the email mentions that social distancing won't be in place........

"It seems that children will not be socially distanced but instead be kept in insular groups of up to 15 children which will be kept separate from other groups in school, although how this will look at (*school name*) is very much undecided."

This seems another area where the rules are confused. A group of up to 16 people (15 kids and a teacher/support assistant) can be in a situation with no social distancing in an enclosed space, which we are told is the likeliest way to pass on the infection, and yet you aren't able to meet more than one person from another household in a park with social distancing measures in place.
		
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My wife is a teacher, and if this happens she won't be returning any time soon, as she would just take retirement a year or so before she had planned to do so at 60 at the earliest. She has parents who are in their mid 80's she hasn't seen for months, and so wants to give herself the best chance of seeing them as soon as possible. Mingling with 15 kids isn't something that would help that cause!


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## chellie (May 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Had an email from the kids school today explaining what will be happening when the school reopens. Part of the email mentions that social distancing won't be in place........

"It seems that children will not be socially distanced but instead be kept in insular groups of up to 15 children which will be kept separate from other groups in school, although how this will look at (*school name*) is very much undecided."

This seems another area where the rules are confused. A group of up to 16 people (15 kids and a teacher/support assistant) can be in a situation with no social distancing in an enclosed space, which we are told is the likeliest way to pass on the infection, and yet you aren't able to meet more than one person from another household in a park with social distancing measures in place.
		
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Was an interesting section on the BBC yesterday morning with a teacher from Copenhagen and a UK head talking about schooling. Not sure if it's online.


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## AmandaJR (May 13, 2020)

Watched the second episode of Hospital. Words can't explain but it should be compulsory viewing. Usually the BBC tend to have this programme focus on political/NHS funding more than patient care but this was an insight into the impact of Covid on hospitals, staff and patients with no digs at all. It is simply an awful, awful disease and I feel so much more now for the staff and patients fighting it. I can only imagine how many of both groups are going to be affected physically and emotionally for a long, long time.

PPE grabbed all the headlines for so long and yet managing so much more - oxygen capacity and morgue space in particular wasn't highlighted (that I saw), perhaps because the government couldn't be held accountable and yet they were real-time issues because this disease is vicious and hospitals have never seen anything like it.

If you watch it be prepared, have a hanky to hand.

I'll be clapping and cheering even more loudly tomorrow at 8pm.


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## MrHansonSmith (May 13, 2020)

Originally back in January we didnt think much would come of it and that it would be relativly well contained in China. Since then our Honeymoon has been cancelled (which is in Jan 2021), our wedding in October is touch and go weather or not it will go ahead or with a full guest list. 3 holidays have been cancelled. 
Yeah its hard to get over.


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## DRW (May 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Watched the second episode of Hospital. Words can't explain but it should be compulsory viewing. Usually the BBC tend to have this programme focus on political/NHS funding more than patient care but this was an insight into the impact of Covid on hospitals, staff and patients with no digs at all. It is simply an awful, awful disease and I feel so much more now for the staff and patients fighting it. I can only imagine how many of both groups are going to be affected physically and emotionally for a long, long time.

PPE grabbed all the headlines for so long and yet managing so much more - oxygen capacity and morgue space in particular wasn't highlighted (that I saw), perhaps because the government couldn't be held accountable and yet they were real-time issues because this disease is vicious and hospitals have never seen anything like it.

If you watch it be prepared, have a hanky to hand.

I'll be clapping and cheering even more loudly tomorrow at 8pm.
		
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Agreed, very moving program and interesting to see the battle they are fighting on many fronts to provide care.

The poor guy that ended up dying, you would never really guess he was so ill to look at him. Poor guy and his family


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## AmandaJR (May 13, 2020)

DRW said:



			Agreed, very moving program and interesting to see the battle they are fighting on many fronts to provide care.

The poor guy that ended up dying, you would never really guess he was so ill to look at him. Poor guy and his family

Click to expand...

I know..I said out loud "oh Stanley" when they said he'd died. So sad especially as he had seemed to be improving. They have said that many don't really know they're quite ill and their SATS are dangerously low so can be late to seek help.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			However people's nannies and cleaners can go back to work (in there homes). Wear a face covering etc

Seen a few "jokes" going around twitter of people considering hiring their kids as cleaners so they can see them.

1st June may be "only" a few weeks away but even then what their saying is one family will be allowed to join another (maybe) to produce a bubble. But no more than one other .

4th July at earliest is when further restrictions may be lifted.
		
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I've seen nothing suggesting cleaners or nannies can resume work.

The Government have laid out what will be allowed at each stage of their plan conditional on infections being lower. I've not seen anything about bubble groups in their document.


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## chrisd (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've seen nothing suggesting cleaners or nannies can resume work.

.
		
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It was certainly being shown as "breaking news" on BBC yesterday or the previous day


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## HomerJSimpson (May 13, 2020)

DRW said:



			Agreed, very moving program and interesting to see the battle they are fighting on many fronts to provide care.

The poor guy that ended up dying, you would never really guess he was so ill to look at him. Poor guy and his family

Click to expand...

Got it to watch on catch up but sounds a very good account of the daily battles being faced on wards as wells as specialist areas like ICU and the guy dying, sadly is a stark realisation about how quickly these patients can go downhill and how much damage the disease can cause. I'll try and grab a look tonight. I've watched most of this series and the previous ones and it has always been really good at highlighting issues like bed blocking, lack of theatre space and a host of other issues most trusts face on a daily basis


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## DRW (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've seen nothing suggesting cleaners or nannies can resume work.

snip.
		
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Government website is your friend tbh and all simply laid out in the FAQ, thumbs up for the government for that:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

Information is out there :-

*3.1 Who is allowed to go to work?*
In the first instance, employers should make every effort to support working from home, including by providing suitable IT and equipment as they have been already. This will apply to many different types of businesses, particularly those who typically would have worked in offices or online.

Where work can only be done in the workplace, we have set out tailored guidelines for employers to help protect their workforce and customers from coronavirus while still continuing to trade or getting their business back up and running. We have published detailed COVID-19 secure guidelines, which has been developed in consultation with businesses and trades unions.

These ‘back to work’ guidelines apply to those in essential retail like:


supermarkets
those in construction and manufacturing
those working in labs and research facilities
those administering takeaways and deliveries at restaurants and cafes
*tradesmen, cleaners and others who work in people’s homes*
those who are facilitating trade or transport goods
and so on
Non-essential retail, restaurants, pubs, bars, gyms and leisure centres will remain closed. They will reopen in a phased manner provided it is safe to do so.

There are specific guidelines for those who are vulnerable, shielding, or showing


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## pauljames87 (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've seen nothing suggesting cleaners or nannies can resume work.

The Government have laid out what will be allowed at each stage of their plan conditional on infections being lower. I've not seen anything about bubble groups in their document.
		
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Must not have read the 51 page document

Under social and family contact


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## AmandaJR (May 13, 2020)

Today was my first "outing" since lockdown began. I've taken my car out twice but otherwise it's been cycling/walking from home. The dog trainers have started single lessons with social distancing in their large field so we took the dogs. It felt so good to be doing something and just talking to other people and I felt really flat when we finished the lesson. Makes you realise how much you've missed for several weeks.

I now have a really sore throat from talking and shouting (to the dogs!)...need to build my larynx up a bit


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## Slab (May 13, 2020)

17th consecutive day with no new cases and no one seeking treatment
Please let this continue


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			My wife is a teacher, and if this happens she won't be returning any time soon, as she would just take retirement a year or so before she had planned to do so at 60 at the earliest. She has parents who are in their mid 80's she hasn't seen for months, and so wants to give herself the best chance of seeing them as soon as possible. Mingling with 15 kids isn't something that would help that cause!
		
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Heard earlier on the radio a morning prime time presenter state that studies show that young children don't pass on the virus - so all the fuss being made by one or more of the teaching unions and their not supporting the current plan is apparently all just typical unions - being obstructive and teachers not doing their bit to get the economy moving again.  Look at the sacrifices and risk, says he,  that the medical and care professions are taking - and the teachers can't do their bit.  I kid you not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've seen nothing suggesting cleaners or nannies can resume work.

The Government have laid out what will be allowed at each stage of their plan conditional on infections being lower. I've not seen anything about bubble groups in their document.
		
Click to expand...

There isn't anything about bubble groups that I've heard - though that's what has been put in place in Belgium.  Our close friends outside Antwerp have a bubble group of 6 - and that's just fine for them.


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## ColchesterFC (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard earlier on the radio a morning prime time presenter state that studies show that young children don't pass on the virus - so all the fuss being made by one or more of the teaching unions and their not supporting the current plan is apparently all just typical unions - being obstructive and teachers not doing their bit to get the economy moving again.  Look at the sacrifices and risk, says he,  that the medical and care professions are taking - and the teachers can't do their bit.  I kid you not.  

Click to expand...

I heard a guy being interviewed on TV who said there was "no evidence of children passing on the virus to adults". Considering how many other viruses and diseases they pass on I'd be very surprised if that was the case.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I heard a guy being interviewed on TV who said there was "no evidence of children passing on the virus to adults". Considering how many other viruses and diseases they pass on I'd be very surprised if that was the case.
		
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This has been consistently stated for a while now but like you I find it surprising. It goes against the normal way of things but then again what is normal now?


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## Reemul (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard earlier on the radio a morning prime time presenter state that studies show that young children don't pass on the virus - so all the fuss being made by one or more of the teaching unions and their not supporting the current plan is apparently all just typical unions - being obstructive and teachers not doing their bit to get the economy moving again.  Look at the sacrifices and risk, says he,  that the medical and care professions are taking - and the teachers can't do their bit.  I kid you not.  

Click to expand...

And you believe it because a study shows, really you believe it because you want to, it fits your agenda. The reality is as many studies show they do get it, can pass it but it is more likely to be  asymptomatic the reality is we do not know yet because it is so new and unknown.

Let me ask you a question, if you had 3 holes in your lung from Cavitating Pneumonia but no shielding letter, haven't been out of the house for 7 weeks and when you get a cough or cold are pretty ill for a few weeks and have been told by the hospital we would do a lung biopsy to find out why you aren't healing but best not too at present and then get a call from your work saying you need to go back to work next Thursday along with 40 other adults in a small school with very little SD available *would you take your own advice *and be happy going a long for a little catch up or would you be worried you might catch it and die. Because that is the situation my wife is in and posts like yours really get on my nerves at times.

We are now waiting for the consultant to see if she can have a shielding letter but never mind some bloke on the radio says, sums it up really. Next you will be telling me you believe what the Daily Mail says or The Guardian.

I wish to add you have no idea how hard my wife has been working, she works from 8am in the morning till 9pm at night 5 days a week as well as half a day on the weekend. Her school is ranked 7th in the UK for performance, she speaks to all he pupils weekly, does video lessons for them each week as well as setting all normal work. They have daily conference meetings with all the staff as well senior mangement meetings, she is Maths leader and Senco Head (that's special needs) she has a blind pupil who needs braille work set as well as support for those that have welfare issues. She cannot work any harder as *you say she cannot do her bit*.


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## Hobbit (May 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard earlier on the radio a morning prime time presenter state that studies show that young children don't pass on the virus - so all the fuss being made by one or more of the teaching unions and their not supporting the current plan is apparently all just typical unions - being obstructive and teachers not doing their bit to get the economy moving again.  Look at the sacrifices and risk, says he,  that the medical and care professions are taking - and the teachers can't do their bit.  I kid you not.  

Click to expand...

Sounds like whoever did the study needs to wonder how on earth they got their degree. The stats clearly show that the young can get it and, sadly, can die of it. Yes the stats show that it doesn't appear to be quite so destructive with the young but that doesn't mean that sniffle they have wouldn't be something far worse in someone older.

I do wonder why producers etc give airtime to rubbish like this.


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## SocketRocket (May 13, 2020)

DRW said:



			Government website is your friend tbh and all simply laid out in the FAQ, thumbs up for the government for that:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

Information is out there :-

*3.1 Who is allowed to go to work?*
In the first instance, employers should make every effort to support working from home, including by providing suitable IT and equipment as they have been already. This will apply to many different types of businesses, particularly those who typically would have worked in offices or online.

Where work can only be done in the workplace, we have set out tailored guidelines for employers to help protect their workforce and customers from coronavirus while still continuing to trade or getting their business back up and running. We have published detailed COVID-19 secure guidelines, which has been developed in consultation with businesses and trades unions.

These ‘back to work’ guidelines apply to those in essential retail like:


supermarkets
those in construction and manufacturing
those working in labs and research facilities
those administering takeaways and deliveries at restaurants and cafes
*tradesmen, cleaners and others who work in people’s homes*
those who are facilitating trade or transport goods
and so on
Non-essential retail, restaurants, pubs, bars, gyms and leisure centres will remain closed. They will reopen in a phased manner provided it is safe to do so.

There are specific guidelines for those who are vulnerable, shielding, or showing
		
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Thanks for that.


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## Lump (May 13, 2020)

My colleague and partner in crime got tested Monday after he developed a cough. 
Thankfully results have come back negative. It suddenly feels very real when it might be someone you know and come it contact with regularly.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 13, 2020)

Lump said:



			My colleague and partner in crime got tested Monday after he developed a cough.
Thankfully results have come back negative. It suddenly feels very real when it might be someone you know and come it contact with regularly.
		
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Been there and totally agree. More worrying was the first "inconclusive" test, although talking to the testers second time around it seems a large batch of Friday's tests had all come back the same. Whether that was down to the tester not taking the swabs sufficiently of the batch was infected in the testing process I don't know. It was a huge relief to get the negative though. No idea what I had instead which knocked me off my feet but glad it wasn't Corona. 

On a more positive note, we are right down on numbers in ICU and most have been there long term (10-40 days) and numbers coming in are slowing too. I am still nervous about a secondary spike now everyone is out and about and many seemingly thinking it's all over looking at the crowds in the parks, cars on the road and pictures on the news but for now we're scaling right back


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## clubchamp98 (May 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Today was my first "outing" since lockdown began. I've taken my car out twice but otherwise it's been cycling/walking from home. The dog trainers have started single lessons with social distancing in their large field so we took the dogs. It felt so good to be doing something and just talking to other people and I felt really flat when we finished the lesson. Makes you realise how much you've missed for several weeks.

I now have a really sore throat from talking and shouting (to the dogs!)...need to build my larynx up a bit 

Click to expand...

That’s one thing I have missed .
I will talk to anybody who says “ hello”
But find we are avoiding each other so no conversations.


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## clubchamp98 (May 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I could be wrong, but my reading of that was that he was criticising the presenter rather than agreeing with him.
		
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Yes that’s what I read as well.


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## clubchamp98 (May 13, 2020)

Reemul said:



			And you believe it because a study shows, really you believe it because you want to, it fits your agenda. The reality is as many studies show they do get it, can pass it but it is more likely to be  asymptomatic the reality is we do not know yet because it is so new and unknown.

Let me ask you a question, if you had 3 holes in your lung from Cavitating Pneumonia but no shielding letter, haven't been out of the house for 7 weeks and when you get a cough or cold are pretty ill for a few weeks and have been told by the hospital we would do a lung biopsy to find out why you aren't healing but best not too at present and then get a call from your work saying you need to go back to work next Thursday along with 40 other adults in a small school with very little SD available *would you take your own advice *and be happy going a long for a little catch up or would you be worried you might catch it and die. Because that is the situation my wife is in and posts like yours really get on my nerves at times.

We are now waiting for the consultant to see if she can have a shielding letter but never mind some bloke on the radio says, sums it up really. Next you will be telling me you believe what the Daily Mail says or The Guardian.

I wish to add you have no idea how hard my wife has been working, she works from 8am in the morning till 9pm at night 5 days a week as well as half a day on the weekend. Her school is ranked 7th in the UK for performance, she speaks to all he pupils weekly, does video lessons for them each week as well as setting all normal work. They have daily conference meetings with all the staff as well senior mangement meetings, she is Maths leader and Senco Head (that's special needs) she has a blind pupil who needs braille work set as well as support for those that have welfare issues. She cannot work any harder as *you say she cannot do her bit*.
		
Click to expand...

I think you might need to read that again.
I don’t think he is agreeing with him , quite the opposite.


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## pauljames87 (May 14, 2020)

I tell you how it really has effected me... being a shift worker anyways when im nights its very hard to remember what day it actually is... coming home on one day and waking up being the same day lol... I have been doing a lot of extra nights covering shielding staff etc. anyways really dont know what day it is!!!

filled in a claim form for my dogs medication last night and I typed march. that was when I last remember stuff actually happening!!


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## ExRabbit (May 14, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Been there and totally agree. More worrying was the first "inconclusive" test, although talking to the testers second time around it seems a large batch of Friday's tests had all come back the same. Whether that was down to the tester not taking the swabs sufficiently of the batch was infected in the testing process I don't know. *It was a huge relief to get the negative though. No idea what I had instead which knocked me off my feet but glad it wasn't Corona.*

On a more positive note, we are right down on numbers in ICU and most have been there long term (10-40 days) and numbers coming in are slowing too. I am still nervous about a secondary spike now everyone is out and about and many seemingly thinking it's all over looking at the crowds in the parks, cars on the road and pictures on the news but for now we're scaling right back
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, but unless I am misunderstanding something, wouldn't it be more of a relief to get a positive result and find that you had been infected by Corona and pulled through? Although I suppose you may be looking at the general picture and were worried you may have infected others?


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## ExRabbit (May 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I tell you how it really has effected me... being a shift worker anyways when im nights its very hard to remember what day it actually is... coming home on one day and waking up being the same day lol... I have been doing a lot of extra nights covering shielding staff etc. anyways really dont know what day it is!!!

filled in a claim form for my dogs medication last night and I typed march. that was when I last remember stuff actually happening!!
		
Click to expand...

I think most people are struggling with remembering what day it is, and even what you did the day before. All the days are blurring into one. My wife and myself couldn't remember which of the 3 walks we normally do on rotation we did yesterday, and we were wracking our brains until we remembered that we did a slightly different walk  to pick up eggs, cheese and butter from a local farm (on a spur off the normal loop), which we hadn't done for nearly two weeks. Brain fog!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 14, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			Sorry, but unless I am misunderstanding something, wouldn't it be more of a relief to get a positive result and find that you had been infected by Corona and pulled through? Although I suppose you may be looking at the general picture and were worried you may have infected others?
		
Click to expand...

There was a feeling of that and thinking great I've had it so can't get it again (subject to the current thinking regarding re-infection) but also relief in knowing how quickly some of our patients have gone downhill from having bearable symptoms at home to needing urgent hospital treatment for breathing issues. Also as you say a relief that it not being Covid means I theoretically haven't inadvertently passed it on to anyone


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## bobmac (May 14, 2020)

I'm giving blood today.
Should be interesting


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## pauljames87 (May 14, 2020)

Friend of mine dropped something in porch yest and waved at window 

She txt me this morning in a panic. Did you disinfect that bag because my bf has been sent home from work .. he tested positive 

She was so worried bless her

We disinfect everything anyways just incase


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## Lord Tyrion (May 14, 2020)

This link shows how primary schools in Denmark have managed the return of kids. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...opened-primary-school-in-the-time-of-covid-19


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## AmandaJR (May 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s one thing I have missed .
I will talk to anybody who says “ hello”
But find we are avoiding each other so no conversations.
		
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Me too. Could talk the hind leg of a donkey! In fact stood for ages afterwards just chatting to the trainer about all things dogs...

I'm a bit of a hugger too so that's going to take some getting used to.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2020)

A photo popped up on my FB page last night of a friend out for a meal with 4 others who we don't know. No sign of social distancing around the table. 1) If the Guardia knew of it they would shut the place down - they are doing with any establishment they find not following the rules. 2) I'm not comfortable with being in someone's company who doesn't care - she's taken some flak for it but, apparently, its ok because she knows them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Reemul said:



			And you believe it because a study shows, really you believe it because you want to, it fits your agenda. The reality is as many studies show they do get it, can pass it but it is more likely to be  asymptomatic the reality is we do not know yet because it is so new and unknown.

Let me ask you a question, if you had 3 holes in your lung from Cavitating Pneumonia but no shielding letter, haven't been out of the house for 7 weeks and when you get a cough or cold are pretty ill for a few weeks and have been told by the hospital we would do a lung biopsy to find out why you aren't healing but best not too at present and then get a call from your work saying you need to go back to work next Thursday along with 40 other adults in a small school with very little SD available *would you take your own advice *and be happy going a long for a little catch up or would you be worried you might catch it and die. Because that is the situation my wife is in and posts like yours really get on my nerves at times.

We are now waiting for the consultant to see if she can have a shielding letter but never mind some bloke on the radio says, sums it up really. Next you will be telling me you believe what the Daily Mail says or The Guardian.

I wish to add you have no idea how hard my wife has been working, she works from 8am in the morning till 9pm at night 5 days a week as well as half a day on the weekend. Her school is ranked 7th in the UK for performance, she speaks to all he pupils weekly, does video lessons for them each week as well as setting all normal work. They have daily conference meetings with all the staff as well senior mangement meetings, she is Maths leader and Senco Head (that's special needs) she has a blind pupil who needs braille work set as well as support for those that have welfare issues. She cannot work any harder as *you say she cannot do her bit*.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry - you misunderstood my position - I *totally *disagreed with the presenter, and found his attitude towards the teaching union and teachers quite disgraceful.  I am on 100% on the side of the teachers and the union.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Sounds like whoever did the study needs to wonder how on earth they got their degree. The stats clearly show that the young can get it and, sadly, can die of it. Yes the stats show that it doesn't appear to be quite so destructive with the young but that doesn't mean that sniffle they have wouldn't be something far worse in someone older.

I do wonder why producers etc give airtime to rubbish like this.
		
Click to expand...

Nick Ferrari is probably LBCs most listened to presenter - and he gets many ministers on, most likely as he is perceived as being more 'government friendly' than the 'nasty' BBC.  You can guess where he sits on the political spectrum.  That said he _can _be very critical in his interviewing of ministers - as he was of Johnson last year.


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## GB72 (May 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A photo popped up on my FB page last night of a friend out for a meal with 4 others who we don't know. No sign of social distancing around the table. 1) If the Guardia knew of it they would shut the place down - they are doing with any establishment they find not following the rules. 2) I'm not comfortable with being in someone's company who doesn't care - she's taken some flak for it but, apparently, its ok because she knows them.
		
Click to expand...

I wish that sort of action was taken over here. Those pubs that have opened during lockdown (not many but a few) should have had their licences permanently removed and that landlord banned from ever holding a licence again.


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## clubchamp98 (May 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This link shows how primary schools in Denmark have managed the return of kids. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...opened-primary-school-in-the-time-of-covid-19

Click to expand...

All the photos are of older children.
They say only half are back and might need some form of half day shift pattern to fit them all in.
It’s the 5 yr olds that are my main concern who have no inhibitions.
But it’s a start and just hope we can sort it out somehow.


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			All the photos are of older children.
They say only half are back and might need some form of half day shift pattern to fit them all in.
It’s the 5 yr olds that are my main concern who have no inhibitions.
But it’s a start and just hope we can sort it out somehow.
		
Click to expand...

I just don't understand the logic of sending the smallest ones back that struggle to understand what's going on. My youngest is Yr1, nightmare with leaving her at school as it is she's not the biggest fan. Her comfort is always knowing she has my other 2 at school with her and knowing if she gets upset at break time she often will find her sister who often comforts her at school. But knowing she will be going to a hugely changed environment without her effective social comfort blanket is going to be a nightmare for her.

Coupled with fact means my other 2 are still at home along with her mum and their new baby, plus none of the kids have been allowed to come stay with me during lockdown due to their mum being high risk and only allowing video call access, my little one literally feels like she is being abandoned by being sent back to school alone 😔


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## Reemul (May 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This link shows how primary schools in Denmark have managed the return of kids. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world...opened-primary-school-in-the-time-of-covid-19

Click to expand...

One thing they have is a max size of 20 kids and half them to 10. We have between 30 and 32 so half of one of my wife's schools is 16 nearly the size of one of their classes.

I don't know about Denmark but the uk has hardly built schools recently and a lot of ours are old, small with tight corridors and extensions on them rather than newer modern buildings. My wife's schools has 7 classrooms, a hall, a staff room, entrance and 1 office. Already the school will be full with just reception year, year 1 and 6 back. They become 7 classes because year 6 has 32 so being split 3 ways, the hall has key worker children in it. The head is in the office that leaves no room and years 2,3,4 and 5 are not even in yet.

The odds of it spreading if someone has it is massive.


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## Reemul (May 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - you misunderstood my position - I *totally *disagreed with the presenter, and found his attitude towards the teaching union and teachers quite disgraceful.  I am on 100% on the side of the teachers and the union.
		
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Ah, I am so sorry, read it as you agreed with him, I apologise profusely. May I aim that at him and any others that seem to think teachers do sod all and kids won't spread it.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			All the photos are of older children.
They say only half are back and might need some form of half day shift pattern to fit them all in.
It’s the 5 yr olds that are my main concern who have no inhibitions.
But it’s a start and just hope we can sort it out somehow.
		
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I think they were 7 but I absolutely take your point. The thing is, it shows it can be done and this is the template. It is not ideal but there are ways around problems. They are going back in Finland today as well I believe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Just this morning Mrs Hogie was reflecting upon how much she was enjoying her (relatively) new job working on the Breast Cancer Now Helpline - she's currently furloughed (on full pay) but sadly was expecting to be asked - at best - to go to zero hours on their bank to provide occasional ad-hoc sickness and holiday cover. 

But an hour ago she received an email from her boss, saying that the charity has reviewed the furloughed staff (95% of workforce) across the business and they'd like her to come back to work - from next week I think.  She is delighted.  Good news and Happy Hogies Mrs


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## Lord Tyrion (May 14, 2020)

Reemul said:



			One thing they have is a max size of 20 kids and half them to 10. We have between 30 and 32 so half of one of my wife's schools is 16 nearly the size of one of their classes.

I don't know about Denmark but the uk has hardly built schools recently and a lot of ours are old, small with tight corridors and extensions on them rather than newer modern buildings. My wife's schools has 7 classrooms, a hall, a staff room, entrance and 1 office. Already the school will be full with just reception year, year 1 and 6 back. They become 7 classes because year 6 has 32 so being split 3 ways, the hall has key worker children in it. The head is in the office that leaves no room and years 2,3,4 and 5 are not even in yet.

The odds of it spreading if someone has it is massive.
		
Click to expand...

The money on new schools seems to have gone on sexy new high schools, via academies, not smaller schools on the whole so I fully understand your point. Something I raised a few days ago, in the case of your wifes school where clearly there is not the sapce to take back more years, could they move certain pupils and staff to a nearby high school? They will be empty until September and should have more than enough space for all of the surrounding feeder schools. Not ideal but a possible way around it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 14, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Ah, I am so sorry, read it as you agreed with him, I apologise profusely. May I aim that at him and any others that seem to think teachers do sod all and kids won't spread it.
		
Click to expand...

No problems...

James O'B on LBC discussing this whole issue on his show at the moment.  Part of which he is asking where this idea came from that children don't pass on the virus to adults - and that teachers and their union were therefore being unreasonable...and of course one of the main voices for this idea?  The Sun newspaper.  How long was it before the right wing turned on unions and 'leftie' professions such as teaching.  Not long it seems.  Best wishes to you and yours.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I just don't understand the logic of sending the smallest ones back that struggle to understand what's going on. My youngest is Yr1, nightmare with leaving her at school as it is she's not the biggest fan. Her comfort is always knowing she has my other 2 at school with her and knowing if she gets upset at break time she often will find her sister who often comforts her at school. But knowing she will be going to a hugely changed environment without her effective social comfort blanket is going to be a nightmare for her.

Coupled with fact means my other 2 are still at home along with her mum and their new baby, plus none of the kids have been allowed to come stay with me during lockdown due to their mum being high risk and only allowing video call access, my little one literally feels like she is being abandoned by being sent back to school alone 😔
		
Click to expand...

I believe they chose yr 1 to go back because they view that year as an important developmental year and they want the kids to miss as little of that year as possible. 

We have a 1st school on our estate and that has remained open for children of key workers throughout this. They have managed, apparently they make games of hand washing, keeping apart etc. Of course there will be mixing, it is unavoidable, but so far I have not heard of any issues.

Have you seen the clip that I posted? We parents worry about everything but teachers are good at what they do, good at cajoling youngsters into doing the right thing. It might put your mind at rest a little.


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## clubchamp98 (May 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I tell you how it really has effected me... being a shift worker anyways when im nights its very hard to remember what day it actually is... coming home on one day and waking up being the same day lol... I have been doing a lot of extra nights covering shielding staff etc. anyways really dont know what day it is!!!

filled in a claim form for my dogs medication last night and I typed march. that was when I last remember stuff actually happening!!
		
Click to expand...

Did shifts for 40yrs it’s very easy to forget what day it is.


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## clubchamp98 (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I just don't understand the logic of sending the smallest ones back that struggle to understand what's going on. My youngest is Yr1, nightmare with leaving her at school as it is she's not the biggest fan. Her comfort is always knowing she has my other 2 at school with her and knowing if she gets upset at break time she often will find her sister who often comforts her at school. But knowing she will be going to a hugely changed environment without her effective social comfort blanket is going to be a nightmare for her.

Coupled with fact means my other 2 are still at home along with her mum and their new baby, plus none of the kids have been allowed to come stay with me during lockdown due to their mum being high risk and only allowing video call access, my little one literally feels like she is being abandoned by being sent back to school alone 😔
		
Click to expand...

That must be difficult.
My daughter is year 1 Sen teacher and some of the things she has told me they get up to is horrible.
Just no sense of space.
They come up behind her at the desk and lick her face to see if she tastes like she smells.
Hope you sort it.


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## hovis (May 14, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I just don't understand the logic of sending the smallest ones back that struggle to understand what's going on. My youngest is Yr1, nightmare with leaving her at school as it is she's not the biggest fan. Her comfort is always knowing she has my other 2 at school with her and knowing if she gets upset at break time she often will find her sister who often comforts her at school. But knowing she will be going to a hugely changed environment without her effective social comfort blanket is going to be a nightmare for her.

Coupled with fact means my other 2 are still at home along with her mum and their new baby, plus none of the kids have been allowed to come stay with me during lockdown due to their mum being high risk and only allowing video call access, my little one literally feels like she is being abandoned by being sent back to school alone 😔
		
Click to expand...

But on the opposite side to that my 5yr old daughter can't wait to go back and doesn't have any struggles. My daughter doesn't understand what's going on really.  She doesn't need to.  She just has to do as she's told


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## Swinglowandslow (May 14, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I heard a guy being interviewed on TV who said there was "no evidence of children passing on the virus to adults". Considering how many other viruses and diseases they pass on I'd be very surprised if that was the case.
		
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As soon as I hear the phrase" there is no evidence that....." then I sus pect it means that there might well be but accepting it is what we don't want to do. 
What is said is true, inasmuch that for there to be evidence( in this case children passing on the virus) there has to be no possibility that it could have happened any other way.
And , unless you have controlled conditions in an effort to prove it, then that will never be the case.
The same has been said about catching the virus from mail and packaging.


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## Beezerk (May 14, 2020)

Back to work this Monday, the holiday is over 🤨


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## Wolf (May 14, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Back to work this Monday, the holiday is over 🤨
		
Click to expand...

Wish I was 😔. 

However did go out for my run today and the amount of traffic passing through my village was back up to Pre lockdown levels and so many people out congregating and chatting, I ended up running in the road to avoid contact and came back cross country instead of through village.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 14, 2020)

I had some papers to sign at my lawyer's (solicitor's?) office.
She told me to wear a mask and rubber gloves and wait down in the parking lot (car park?).
Then she sent a notary public, also with mask and gloves, out to my car with the paperwork.
It was handed to me at arm's length through the window.

She didn't even come out herself to say hello, all while charging me $400 an hour.
Any wonder why I hate the expression, "new normal?"


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## Italian outcast (May 14, 2020)

My 95 yr old dad is now off oxygen after 3 weeks post testing +ve

Although they haven't retested him (yet) the hospital are now managing him as clinically negative

Lucky beggar - though obviously i gave him good genes


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## fundy (May 14, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			My 95 yr old dad is now off oxygen after 3 weeks post testing +ve

Although they haven't retested him (yet) the hospital are now managing him as negative

Lucky beggar - though obviously i gave him good genes 

Click to expand...

Wonderful news IC


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## HomerJSimpson (May 14, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			My 95 yr old dad is now off oxygen after 3 weeks post testing +ve

Although they haven't retested him (yet) the hospital are now managing him as clinically negative

Lucky beggar - though obviously i gave him good genes 

Click to expand...

Excellent news.


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## Slab (May 15, 2020)

After 2 months working from home I'm off to the office for a shift today as we start a phased return


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## Slab (May 15, 2020)

Slab said:



			After 2 months working from home I'm off to the office for a shift today as we start a phased return
		
Click to expand...

Well, much less traffic than usual rush hour but no surprise since businesses are limited for number of permits etc
Pedestrians seemed pretty well masked up, motorcycles not so much, cars reasonable compliance but not 100%
Roadblocks in place, north and south to spot check permits etc 
Saw a few breaches of the rules, hopefully it doesn't catch on and set us back

Yesterday was 18th consecutive day with no positive tests and no one requiring treatment, currently no active cases. Gov 'warily' announce that we've won the battle. Borders still closed except for repatriation 

Getting ready for work today I realised I forgot how to put socks on while remaining balanced


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## harpo_72 (May 15, 2020)

Sat in airport checked in luggage gone. 
Bit random, safe distancing being enforced which is good, but there are the occasional space invaders.
There is a pair of Chinese travellers in full hazmat suits, most people in masks and then those with nothing... 
surreal!


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Sat in airport checked in luggage gone.
Bit random, safe distancing being enforced which is good, but there are the occasional space invaders.
There is a pair of Chinese travellers in full hazmat suits, most people in masks and then those with nothing...
surreal!
		
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Where are you flying to


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2020)

hovis said:



			But on the opposite side to that my 5yr old daughter can't wait to go back and doesn't have any struggles. My daughter doesn't understand what's going on really.  She doesn't need to.  She just has to do as she's told
		
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I was talking to my little Grandson on Skype and asked him if he wanted to go back to school, he said "Its all going to be OK Grandad. When the man on the television gets better we can go to school again"  
 Out of the mouths of babes.


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## harpo_72 (May 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Where are you flying to
		
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Sweden very flights in general here which is good


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## 3offTheTee (May 15, 2020)

Dancing in the streets from Midnight  Sunday Brian !Disfrutalo!

In Andalusia, the provinces of Almería, Jaén, Córdoba, Seville, Cádiz and Huelva will be moving to Phase 1. Málaga and Granada will stay in Phase 0.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Dancing in the streets from Midnight  Sunday Brian !Disfrutalo!

In Andalusia, the provinces of Almería, Jaén, Córdoba, Seville, Cádiz and Huelva will be moving to Phase 1. Málaga and Granada will stay in Phase 0.
		
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We've been in phase 1 since Monday. Malaga and Granada are still in phase 0, but move to 1 on Monday. Madrid and fair bit of Valencia are still in 0, and there's been rioting the last 3 nights.

All being well, we go into phase 2 in less than 2 weeks. Deaths are holding in the around 190 ave/day. Infected is rising a little, and has been for a few days but only by 10's. Newly recovered are well exceeding newly infected.


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## chrisd (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We've been in phase 1 since Monday. Malaga and Granada are still in phase 0, but move to 1 on Monday. Madrid and fair bit of Valencia are still in 0, and there's been rioting the last 3 nights.

All being well, we go into phase 2 in less than 2 weeks. Deaths are holding in the around 190 ave/day. Infected is rising a little, and has been for a few days but only by 10's. Newly recovered are well exceeding newly infected.
		
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You keep yourself and your family well Brian 👍👍


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## harpo_72 (May 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We've been in phase 1 since Monday. Malaga and Granada are still in phase 0, but move to 1 on Monday. Madrid and fair bit of Valencia are still in 0, and there's been rioting the last 3 nights.

All being well, we go into phase 2 in less than 2 weeks. Deaths are holding in the around 190 ave/day. Infected is rising a little, and has been for a few days but only by 10's. Newly recovered are well exceeding newly infected.
		
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Have they started to use blood plasma as a method of recovery?


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## HomerJSimpson (May 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Strange one for me. Privileged problem, I realise. I have next week off so finished up at work today. First time I can ever remember not being happy about having time off. Genuinely think I'd rather just keep working.....

Looks like some walking, some gardening and some cleaning is about all we can do.
		
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Have to be honest and say having the opportunity to work 5 days a week has been a real bonus.


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## Imurg (May 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Strange one for me. Privileged problem, I realise. I have next week off so finished up at work today. First time I can ever remember not being happy about having time off. Genuinely think I'd rather just keep working.....

Looks like some walking, some gardening and some cleaning is about all we can do.
		
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Try 7 weeks of it.........


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## fundy (May 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Try 7 weeks of it.........

Click to expand...


try 7 weeks without being able to claim a penny


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## fundy (May 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Exactly, I know I've been lucky to keep working.

Any top tips?
		
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try and learn or do something new


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## Imurg (May 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Exactly, I know I've been lucky to keep working.

Any top tips?
		
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Ah, it's only a week - it'll be gone before you know it
Alternate days of toil and laziness....


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## Imurg (May 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yeah, you're right, I'm an idiot. 

Click to expand...

Honestly I'd just rest up and do bits here and there unless theres a major task, needs doing..
Mind you,I'm potentially not quite halfway through my enforced holiday yet....so my brain's probably turned to cheese.......


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## AmandaJR (May 15, 2020)

Furlough (6 weeks) "ended" today so was expecting to hear one way or another. No news so logged onto work emails to find a general one from the group CEO basically saying if you're furloughed and haven't heard differently then stay furloughed. They hope to be in touch early June latest but then a very stark warning about cost cutting ahead and, between the lines, redundancies. 

Let's see what June brings. Not really an issue for me but worry for those who need the job.


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## AmandaJR (May 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Exactly, I know I've been lucky to keep working.

Any top tips?
		
Click to expand...

Jigsaw puzzles!!


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## JamesR (May 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Strange one for me. Privileged problem, I realise. I have next week off so finished up at work today. First time I can ever remember not being happy about having time off. Genuinely think I'd rather just keep working.....

Looks like some walking, some gardening and some cleaning is about all we can do.
		
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I was on furlough, and then Ill, during April and early May.
The best tip I can give for the time off is to sit in the sun for hours and hours.
I haven’t had a tan like this for years ☀️😎


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## SocketRocket (May 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Try 7 weeks of it.........

Click to expand...

And drinking battery acid.


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## Hobbit (May 15, 2020)

chrisd said:



			You keep yourself and your family well Brian 👍👍
		
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Cheers Chris. We went down to Mojacar Playa on Tuesday(I think) for some essentials we could only get there.  We just weren't comfortable. We've already decided to stay away from the tourist areas till at least Sept, and we are going to watch the number over the next few weeks before we go and sit outside a bar in the village.


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## BrianM (May 15, 2020)

Bit behind on this thread but got my Mum to set up some chairs in the garden so we could ‘ social distance visit’ she’s been struggling mentally, being on her own for last 6 weeks, it was an hour well spent in the current circumstances.


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## richart (May 15, 2020)

JamesR said:



			The best tip I can give for the time off is to sit in the sun for hours and hours.
I haven’t had a tan like this for years ☀️😎
		
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I am painting the exterior windows at the moment. Do you think the neighbours would object to me doing it my speedos so I can top up my tan ?


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## ColchesterFC (May 15, 2020)

richart said:



			I am painting the exterior windows at the moment. Do you think the neighbours would object to me doing it my speedos so I can top up my tan ?

Click to expand...

I had a visit from the police yesterday. They told me that while it is perfectly acceptable to walk around my house naked I had to do it INSIDE my house.


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## richart (May 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I had a visit from the police yesterday. They told me that while it is perfectly acceptable to walk around my house naked I had to do it INSIDE my house. 

Click to expand...

 Surprised anyone noticed as it was freezing yesterday.


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## JamesR (May 15, 2020)

richart said:



			I am painting the exterior windows at the moment. Do you think the neighbours would object to me doing it my speedos so I can top up my tan ?

Click to expand...

*YES 😱*


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## JamesR (May 15, 2020)

richart said:



			Surprised anyone noticed as it was freezing yesterday.

Click to expand...

They probably said “excuse me madam...”


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## Slab (May 16, 2020)

Allowed to go to the office from yesterday... Still not allowed to go out for a walk today


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## chrisd (May 16, 2020)

richart said:



			I am painting the exterior windows at the moment. Do you think the neighbours would object to me doing it my speedos so I can top up my tan ?

Click to expand...

Its probably ok so long as you dont lose the 'S' on the logo 😖


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## backwoodsman (May 16, 2020)

Slab said:



			Allowed to go to the office from yesterday... Still not allowed to go out for a walk today 

Click to expand...

Its been a pretty tough lockdown for you - but I suppose the good thing is that it's worked. What's left to solve is how to get the island economy going without tourists bringing you another dose?


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## Slab (May 16, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Its been a pretty tough lockdown for you - but I suppose the good thing is that it's worked. What's left to solve is how to get the island economy going without tourists bringing you another dose?
		
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Correct, if it truly is gone we need efforts into sorting a decent border testing process that will let us accept flights etc even if it means an extra couple of hours at arrivals 
I believe the golf courses are planning for 2nd June reopen


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

Slab said:



			Correct, if it truly is gone we need efforts into sorting a decent border testing process that will let us accept flights etc even if it means an extra couple of hours at arrivals
I believe the golf courses are planning for 2nd June reopen
		
Click to expand...

Ideally, I'd like the border checks carried out before anyone boards a plane. Why have someone who is ill giving to everyone else on a plane for x hours. Make it a prerequisite that anyone wanting to travel gets a health passport from their doctor.


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## Slab (May 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ideally, I'd like the border checks carried out before anyone boards a plane. Why have someone who is ill giving to everyone else on a plane for x hours. Make it a prerequisite that anyone wanting to travel gets a health passport from their doctor.
		
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Yeah, although if there's a decent quick test I don't think any country would be happy just being dependent on the departure process (without duplicating it on arrival)


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## Hobbit (May 16, 2020)

Mrs Hobbit is a gregarious outgoing type of person. Loves people, and loves being in the middle of a conversation. She's not a staying in person and loves the cafe culture out here. She's no party animal, and even when she did have the odd glass I've only ever seen her worse for wear twice. In the last 15 years she's been almost tea-total - great designated driver.

The reason she's almost tea-total is a rare form of colitis. Avoid some foods, and too much alcohol, i.e. more than one glass of wine. And most importantly, avoid stress! She manages her condition well, and with the aid of lots of meds she's not needed a doc for a couple of years. Last time it was 3 months of pain, and losing 2.5 stone. 2.5 stone off someone who weighed in at just under 8 stone was not good, and it was a close run thing.

Lockdown hasn't been kind, and things were going downhill. Thank goodness we got the partial unlock when we did, as she was getting serious cabin fever. But I'm not sure its come soon enough. The last few days haven't been good, and last night was very ungood. We've got everything we need to manage it, bar surgery - she doesn't trust me with a knife, but we need a 'normal' life for her.


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## fundy (May 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mrs Hobbit is a gregarious outgoing type of person. Loves people, and loves being in the middle of a conversation. She's not a staying in person and loves the cafe culture out here. She's no party animal, and even when she did have the odd glass I've only ever seen her worse for wear twice. In the last 15 years she's been almost tea-total - great designated driver.

The reason she's almost tea-total is a rare form of colitis. Avoid some foods, and too much alcohol, i.e. more than one glass of wine. And most importantly, avoid stress! She manages her condition well, and with the aid of lots of meds she's not needed a doc for a couple of years. Last time it was 3 months of pain, and losing 2.5 stone. 2.5 stone off someone who weighed in at just under 8 stone was not good, and it was a close run thing.

Lockdown hasn't been kind, and things were going downhill. Thank goodness we got the partial unlock when we did, as she was getting serious cabin fever. But I'm not sure its come soon enough. The last few days haven't been good, and last night was very ungood. We've got everything we need to manage it, bar surgery - she doesn't trust me with a knife, but we need a 'normal' life for her.
		
Click to expand...


fingers crossed for Mrs H, hope things improve soon


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## Hacker Khan (May 16, 2020)

Just been on a 12K walk I've been doing every Saturday for a long time on pavements and also through woods and countryside. And there were about 3 times as many people out waking than there was before the lockdown, of which I'd say about 50% looked like they were adhering to the new rules and 50% were not. And compared with a couple of weeks ago, from my experience today people are now less likely to ensure they are 2 meters away when you pass them as if that rule is not relevant anymore.

Traffic also seemed to be a lot busier than normal, plus I walked past an outdoor garden centre that was heaving.  Looked like they were trying to get the punters to social distance but mostly failing.  It would not surprise me if the R rate is heading towards 2 in a couple of weeks when all these 'new freedoms' start impacting the numbers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 16, 2020)

Just not long back from walk into town for some shopping.  Lots more traffic on the roads taking the governments guidance to heart, and much of it travelling too fast - making it difficult to go onto the road to keep distance when passing other pedestrians.  We only got thrown the finger once - by a lady in a BMW as we crossed a road and she came tearing round a corner and onto us and we remonstrated to her to slow down. Nice.  With more pedestrians having to keep distance in a busier traffic environment suggest a blanket UK-wide limit of 20mph in built up areas for the time being.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

Spain's death toll for yesterday was 87. First time below 100 since the 12th March. Yes its a weekend, and no doubt there'll be some additions, probably. Friday's death toll was 102.

Newly recovered far outweigh newly infected. Unfortunately, we've got a little blip locally. Hope we're not 9 weeks behind Madrid and see a big blip.


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## NearHull (May 17, 2020)

(Part of the) Leading story in the Telegraph this morning.  There has been many “breakthroughs “ reported over this period but this does seem to have traction.

_Blood-thinning drugs can help save Covid-19 patients' lives, leading British doctors have found, raising hopes of a major breakthrough in the race to find a treatment for the deadly virus.

London specialists made the breakthrough after discovering coronavirus triggered potentially deadly blood clots in every seriously ill patient they tested using pioneering scanning technology.

The Telegraph understands that NHS England is set to issue hospitals with fresh guidance on blood thinning, which is likely to eventually lead to carefully administered higher doses for the critically ill.

Professor Peter Openshaw, who sits on the Government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) sub-group on clinical information, said that an "unprecedented amount of collaboration" between scientists had revealed "a really quite extraordinary story about a virus about which we hitherto knew nothing".

Specialists at Royal Brompton Hospital’s severe respiratory failure service established the clearest link yet between Covid-19 and clotting by using hi-tech dual energy CT scans to take images of lung function in their most serious patients. All of those tested suffered a lack of blood flow, suggesting clotting within the small vessels in the lung. This partly explains why some patients are dying of lung failure through lack of oxygen in the blood, the doctors told The Telegraph.  Low oxygen levels have been regularly recorded in Covid patients reporting no breathlessness._


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain's death toll for yesterday was 87. First time below 100 since the 12th March. Yes its a weekend, and no doubt there'll be some additions, probably. Friday's death toll was 102.

Newly recovered far outweigh newly infected. Unfortunately, we've got a little blip locally. Hope we're not 9 weeks behind Madrid and see a big blip.
		
Click to expand...

News just out of the also blip appearing in a few towns 20 miles further north. One has gone from a few a couple of weeks ago to 25.


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## bobmac (May 17, 2020)

NearHull said:



			(Part of the) Leading story in the Telegraph this morning.  There has been many “breakthroughs “ reported over this period but this does seem to have traction.

_Blood-thinning drugs can help save Covid-19 patients' lives, leading British doctors have found, raising hopes of a major breakthrough in the race to find a treatment for the deadly virus._

_London specialists made the breakthrough after discovering coronavirus triggered potentially deadly blood clots in every seriously ill patient they tested using pioneering scanning technology._

_The Telegraph understands that NHS England is set to issue hospitals with fresh guidance on blood thinning, which is likely to eventually lead to carefully administered higher doses for the critically ill._

_Professor Peter Openshaw, who sits on the Government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) sub-group on clinical information, said that an "unprecedented amount of collaboration" between scientists had revealed "a really quite extraordinary story about a virus about which we hitherto knew nothing"._

_Specialists at Royal Brompton Hospital’s severe respiratory failure service established the clearest link yet between Covid-19 and clotting by using hi-tech dual energy CT scans to take images of lung function in their most serious patients. All of those tested suffered a lack of blood flow, suggesting clotting within the small vessels in the lung. This partly explains why some patients are dying of lung failure through lack of oxygen in the blood, the doctors told The Telegraph.  Low oxygen levels have been regularly recorded in Covid patients reporting no breathlessness._

Click to expand...

Hopefully great news


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## SaintHacker (May 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			News just out of the also blip appearing in a few towns 20 miles further north. One has gone from a few a couple of weeks ago to 25.
		
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Blips are bound to happen, it only takes one asymptomatic infected person to start one off. Hopefully with what we now know about the disease we are far better prepared and able to stop these blips turning into a full blown second wave


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

NearHull said:



			(Part of the) Leading story in the Telegraph this morning.  There has been many “breakthroughs “ reported over this period but this does seem to have traction.

_Blood-thinning drugs can help save Covid-19 patients' lives, leading British doctors have found, raising hopes of a major breakthrough in the race to find a treatment for the deadly virus._

_London specialists made the breakthrough after discovering coronavirus triggered potentially deadly blood clots in every seriously ill patient they tested using pioneering scanning technology._

_The Telegraph understands that NHS England is set to issue hospitals with fresh guidance on blood thinning, which is likely to eventually lead to carefully administered higher doses for the critically ill._

_Professor Peter Openshaw, who sits on the Government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) sub-group on clinical information, said that an "unprecedented amount of collaboration" between scientists had revealed "a really quite extraordinary story about a virus about which we hitherto knew nothing"._

_Specialists at Royal Brompton Hospital’s severe respiratory failure service established the clearest link yet between Covid-19 and clotting by using hi-tech dual energy CT scans to take images of lung function in their most serious patients. All of those tested suffered a lack of blood flow, suggesting clotting within the small vessels in the lung. This partly explains why some patients are dying of lung failure through lack of oxygen in the blood, the doctors told The Telegraph.  Low oxygen levels have been regularly recorded in Covid patients reporting no breathlessness._

Click to expand...

There was an article a couple of weeks back about an increased number of healthy adult suddenly dying of strokes brought on by clots. Covid was mentioned in so much as all of them showed as having the antibodies, i.e. they'd had the virus.


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## Hobbit (May 17, 2020)

*MADNESS!!*

A report has just popped up on the English speaking Spanish press of some youngsters up north holding Covid parties with other youngsters who are infected. The intention being to gain immunity.

The Spanish Health Minister is doing his fruit!


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 18, 2020)

Statement from the four UK Chief Medical Officers on an update to Coronavirus symptoms: 

From today, all individuals should self-isolate if they develop a new continuous cough or fever or anosmia. Anosmia is the loss or a change in your normal sense of smell.

It can also affect your sense of taste as the two are closely linked. We have been closely monitoring the emerging data and evidence on COVID-19 and after thorough consideration, we are now confident enough to recommend this new measure. 

The individual’s household should also self-isolate for 14 days as per the current guidelines and the individual should stay at home for 7 days, or longer if they still have symptoms other than cough or loss of sense of smell or taste.


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## BrianM (May 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Statement from the four UK Chief Medical Officers on an update to Coronavirus symptoms:

From today, all individuals should self-isolate if they develop a new continuous cough or fever or anosmia. Anosmia is the loss or a change in your normal sense of smell.

It can also affect your sense of taste as the two are closely linked. We have been closely monitoring the emerging data and evidence on COVID-19 and after thorough consideration, we are now confident enough to recommend this new measure.

The individual’s household should also self-isolate for 14 days as per the current guidelines and the individual should stay at home for 7 days, or longer if they still have symptoms other than cough or loss of sense of smell or taste.
		
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When I had Covid-19, after a week I lost any sense of smell or taste, it was the weirdest thing, I could of ordered anything from room service and it wouldn’t off mattered 😂😂


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## Lord Tyrion (May 18, 2020)

BrianM said:



			When I had Covid-19, after a week I lost any sense of smell or taste, it was the weirdest thing, I could of ordered anything from room service and it wouldn’t off mattered 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest, did you take the chance to eat more heathily, including food you don't normally like or did you order the same things? I dislike many vegetables which are good for you, cauliflower, broccoli, onions etc so I wonder if I would take the chance to eat them and fill up on key vitamins etc. It would be breaking the habits of a lifetime, tough to do .

Entirely frivolous question in a heavy period of time.


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## Wolf (May 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Out of interest, did you take the chance to eat more heathily, including food you don't normally like or did you order the same things? I dislike many vegetables which are good for you, cauliflower, broccoli, onions etc so I wonder if I would take the chance to eat them and fill up on key vitamins etc. It would be breaking the habits of a lifetime, tough to do .

Entirely frivolous question in a heavy period of time.
		
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Good question LT.. Losing my sense of taste is about the only way you'd get me eating an orange, cucumber or celery 🤢


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## BrianM (May 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Out of interest, did you take the chance to eat more heathily, including food you don't normally like or did you order the same things? I dislike many vegetables which are good for you, cauliflower, broccoli, onions etc so I wonder if I would take the chance to eat them and fill up on key vitamins etc. It would be breaking the habits of a lifetime, tough to do .

Entirely frivolous question in a heavy period of time.
		
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It was basically the 24 hour hotel menu, I generally had soup at lunch and steak for dinner, you got a call to your room saying it was outside your door!!
Had a banana or apple everyday depending on what was in my breakfast bag 😂😂


----------



## Green Bay Hacker (May 18, 2020)

NearHull said:



			(Part of the) Leading story in the Telegraph this morning.  There has been many “breakthroughs “ reported over this period but this does seem to have traction.

_Blood-thinning drugs can help save Covid-19 patients' lives, leading British doctors have found, raising hopes of a major breakthrough in the race to find a treatment for the deadly virus._

_London specialists made the breakthrough after discovering coronavirus triggered potentially deadly blood clots in every seriously ill patient they tested using pioneering scanning technology._

_The Telegraph understands that NHS England is set to issue hospitals with fresh guidance on blood thinning, which is likely to eventually lead to carefully administered higher doses for the critically ill._

_Professor Peter Openshaw, who sits on the Government's Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) sub-group on clinical information, said that an "unprecedented amount of collaboration" between scientists had revealed "a really quite extraordinary story about a virus about which we hitherto knew nothing"._

_Specialists at Royal Brompton Hospital’s severe respiratory failure service established the clearest link yet between Covid-19 and clotting by using hi-tech dual energy CT scans to take images of lung function in their most serious patients. All of those tested suffered a lack of blood flow, suggesting clotting within the small vessels in the lung. This partly explains why some patients are dying of lung failure through lack of oxygen in the blood, the doctors told The Telegraph.  Low oxygen levels have been regularly recorded in Covid patients reporting no breathlessness._

Click to expand...

4 weeks ago I developed blood clots on both lungs.  Also, it was agony to lie down and if I did I was breathless from just rolling over in bed and I was coughing up blood. After 7 hours in the respiratory unit at hospital I was prescribed blood thinners and sent home without being tested for Covid. I will probably never know if I had a strain of Covid but it wasn't a very pleasant experience.


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## SocketRocket (May 18, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			4 weeks ago I developed blood clots on both lungs.  Also, it was agony to lie down and if I did I was breathless from just rolling over in bed and I was coughing up blood. After 7 hours in the respiratory unit at hospital I was prescribed blood thinners and sent home without being tested for Covid. I will probably never know if I had a strain of Covid but it wasn't a very pleasant experience.
		
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You could get a test at some point for antibodies.


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2020)

Green Bay Hacker said:



			4 weeks ago I developed blood clots on both lungs.  Also, it was agony to lie down and if I did I was breathless from just rolling over in bed and I was coughing up blood. After 7 hours in the respiratory unit at hospital I was prescribed blood thinners and sent home without being tested for Covid. I will probably never know if I had a strain of Covid but it wasn't a very pleasant experience.
		
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Ouch! Hope you're on the mend now.

Yesterday, we were discussing my nasty cold late Jan and into Feb. It started the beginning the 4th week of Jan. Horrendous temp, and feeling as rough as a butcher's dog. Towards the end of that week I started to feel better, and had about 4 or 5 half decent days, then BAM! The cough was 'different,' and I was doping myself up on just about everything I could get my hands on. It floored me for over 3 weeks, and ran into early March.

At its worst, I didn't lie down at night because I couldn't breath. I also couldn't get off to sleep because of the horrible wheeze and weird crackling sound coming out of my chest. I didn't have enough strength to cough up was at the back of my throat. In the last week I was coughing up blood, but I put that down to the strain of the coughing.

Bizarrely, as a chest infection, it never felt like it got right down to the bottom of my lungs, being in the throat and upper chest. And although I've been out and about since late Feb, early March its only been the last 2 weeks when I've felt back to normal.

I've had plenty of nasty colds and chest infections down the years but never had anything that behaved quite so differently. It felt like I'd be almost shot of it but the next day would be the same. Equally, it also felt like it might get worse but never did.

Was it Covid? I doubt it but I'm not 100% convinced it wasn't.


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## Green Bay Hacker (May 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You could get a test at some point for antibodies.
		
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Probably could but not sure where to get one. Have to go back to hospital for more scans etc in 2 months so hopefully find out more then.


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## Green Bay Hacker (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ouch! Hope you're on the mend now.

Yesterday, we were discussing my nasty cold late Jan and into Feb. It started the beginning the 4th week of Jan. Horrendous temp, and feeling as rough as a butcher's dog. Towards the end of that week I started to feel better, and had about 4 or 5 half decent days, then BAM! The cough was 'different,' and I was doping myself up on just about everything I could get my hands on. It floored me for over 3 weeks, and ran into early March.

At its worst, I didn't lie down at night because I couldn't breath. I also couldn't get off to sleep because of the horrible wheeze and weird crackling sound coming out of my chest. I didn't have enough strength to cough up was at the back of my throat. In the last week I was coughing up blood, but I put that down to the strain of the coughing.

Bizarrely, as a chest infection, it never felt like it got right down to the bottom of my lungs, being in the throat and upper chest. And although I've been out and about since late Feb, early March its only been the last 2 weeks when I've felt back to normal.

I've had plenty of nasty colds and chest infections down the years but never had anything that behaved quite so differently. It felt like I'd be almost shot of it but the next day would be the same. Equally, it also felt like it might get worse but never did.

Was it Covid? I doubt it but I'm not 100% convinced it wasn't.
		
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There are probably hundreds of thousands like you and I who may never know exactly what it was. Any other year we would have been able to see a GP and get to the bottom of it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2020)

Phase 1 of our secret plan to celebrate my MiL being 90 today.  Son dressed and groomed all nice a smart pops down from sheff to ch’field and delivers card, flowers, chocolates and nice biscuits to the door.  Knocks and steps back the necessary separation.  His nan comes to the door - Surprise, Surprise.  Happy Birthday nan.😘

Phase 2 is zoom video chat this evening with Brother in law doing the necessary at Nan’s end. (He’s been staying with his mum for over a year).  And on that will be me, Mrs SILH, and son and daughter with their partners - plus a chihuahua called Belle 😊 Nan knows nothing of this so hopefully once she gets over the confusion over what she is looking at we’ll sing Happy Birthday and it’ll be nice.

Making the best of things...👍


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## Fish (May 18, 2020)

I had to go to a large business in the city (London) today to collect a delivery, was told to stand in a square in reception and look at what seemed to be a camera on a very high tripod. 

The security guy then allowed me further in to collect the items. 

I asked him what it was and apparently they measured my temperature, which I asked what it was, and was he declared it as 36.9, which by all accounts was OK 🤷‍♂️


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## Hobbit (May 18, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spain's death toll for yesterday was 87. First time below 100 since the 12th March. Yes its a weekend, and no doubt there'll be some additions, probably. Friday's death toll was 102.

Newly recovered far outweigh newly infected. Unfortunately, we've got a little blip locally. Hope we're not 9 weeks behind Madrid and see a big blip.
		
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Yesterday's numbers; deaths 59. Newly recovered increased significantly. Newly infected significantly down.

A number of businesses, bar, restaurants and shops are waiting for the next phase in 2 weeks time before opening.


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## Slime (May 18, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Good question LT.. Losing my sense of taste is about the only way you'd get me eating an orange, cucumber or celery 🤢
		
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I'm so with you on the cucumber and celery. Absolutely pointless and disgusting foods.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 18, 2020)

Down to single figure Covid patients in ICU and most those now have been our long term patients over 20 days duration. One new admission over the weekend and even more good news is no ICU deaths for 4 days. I am still not convinced we won't get a second spike in the next 14-21 days as so many people in shops and even walking in town seem unwilling to social distance and many seem to be visiting friends and relatives locally, which has been mentioned regularly today by staff at home over the weekend. We are contingency planning for it to happen and hoping it is all a wasted effort but we'll see. For now though really pleased it is continuing to be going in the right direction and we are getting rid of our agency staff and a lot of the theatre staff and others are going back to their normal duties


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## bobmac (May 19, 2020)

Judging by the numbers coming from some foreign climbs, I don't think I'll be booking any holidays abroad for a while.


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## Beezerk (May 19, 2020)

First day back at work today, down in sunny Mansfield 😯
Not a great deal of social distancing going on but thankfully they are pretty quiet so I can crack on without too much hassle.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			First day back at work today, down in sunny Mansfield 😯
Not a great deal of social distancing going on but thankfully they are pretty quiet so I can crack on without too much hassle.
		
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You should say hello to tashy, that is his patch. From a distance of course


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## huds1475 (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You should say hello to tashy, that is his patch. From a distance of course 

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He's probably on holiday.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			He's probably on holiday.
		
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Ha ha. Even Tashy can't be doing long haul right now. Can he?


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## Wolf (May 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. Even Tashy can't be doing long haul right now. Can he?
		
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I'm sure there is a man wearing Crocs & Speedo’s somewhere right now with a 70s Tash talking in riddles 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Phase 1 of our secret plan to celebrate my MiL being 90 today.  Son dressed and groomed all nice a smart pops down from sheff to ch’field and delivers card, flowers, chocolates and nice biscuits to the door.  Knocks and steps back the necessary separation.  His nan comes to the door - Surprise, Surprise.  Happy Birthday nan.😘

Phase 2 is zoom video chat this evening with Brother in law doing the necessary at Nan’s end. (He’s been staying with his mum for over a year).  And on that will be me, Mrs SILH, and son and daughter with their partners - plus a chihuahua called Belle 😊 Nan knows nothing of this so hopefully once she gets over the confusion over what she is looking at we’ll sing Happy Birthday and it’ll be nice.

Making the best of things...👍
		
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And Phase 2 went very well indeed...though I think my M-i-L was thinking we might try and do something.  But it was lovely.  Plus there were other side benefits.  Those who have had the misfortune to read of my family ramblings will know that my son's g/friend is 'problematic' and my 62yr old B-i-L is seriously depressed about his future now that he is back home living with his mother.  And we could see that the Zoom Call was good for them both.  

The g/friend was included in an important family occasion and she seemed to enjoy it - and my B-i-L had a purpose setting things up.  On top of that we asked him to paint a landscape of the lovely view from my M-i-Ls conservatory - he's an artist by 'profession' but has never painted a landscape - but we know that if my M-i-L had to ever move from her house what she'd miss most would be the view.  So now she'll have it painted by her son.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2020)

Little bit of positivity, but still sad:

545 reported fatalities today. Down from 627, 693, 909, 1172, 1044, 1038 on previous Tuesdays. Jump from yesterday is due to weekend lag.

New infections at 2412 - it was around 6000 two weeks ago. 

Courtesy of Prof Sikora.


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## ColchesterFC (May 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Little bit of positivity, but still sad:

545 reported fatalities today. Down from 627, 693, 909, 1172, 1044, 1038 on previous Tuesdays. Jump from yesterday is due to weekend lag.

*New infections at 2412 - it was around 6000 two weeks ago.*

Courtesy of Prof Sikora.

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I think the figure for new infections in two weeks time will give us a clearer picture. With two bank holidays, some nice weather and the easing of the lock down rules I'm fearful that number will be going back up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think the figure for new infections in two weeks time will give us a clearer picture. With two bank holidays, some nice weather and the easing of the lock down rules I'm fearful that number will be going back up.
		
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You’re like a cloud on a sunny day. 

Living in the now mate, but I get were you’re coming from.


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## clubchamp98 (May 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Little bit of positivity, but still sad:

545 reported fatalities today. Down from 627, 693, 909, 1172, 1044, 1038 on previous Tuesdays. Jump from yesterday is due to weekend lag.

New infections at 2412 - it was around 6000 two weeks ago.

Courtesy of Prof Sikora.

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Any drop is good news ,just hope it continues.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 19, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think the figure for new infections in two weeks time will give us a clearer picture. With two bank holidays, some nice weather and the easing of the lock down rules I'm fearful that number will be going back up.
		
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We're preparing for that in work and everyone thinks there will be a spike of new infections and admissions, possibly starting as early as this weekend following on from the VE celebrations and some members of the public thinking these relaxation of lockdown means its over, I've seen friends and family visiting neighbours, full blown football games and people ignoring social distancing in the shops. I hope it's not going to happen especially now we've got golf back and we go to full 18 holes from tomorrow. I just think the public need a firm reminder on what their responsibilities are


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2020)

Spain, by region. Northern Spain, specifically Cataluna, is still taking the brunt of it. Just goes to show what lockdown stopped. Imagine their numbers in each of the regions.


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## PNWokingham (May 21, 2020)

I am thinking more and more that Sweden have got it right albeit care homes there and here have been a nightmare

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uld-reopen-now-without-risking-public-health/


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## IainP (May 21, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I am thinking more and more that Sweden have got it right albeit care homes there and here have been a nightmare

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uld-reopen-now-without-risking-public-health/

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I think the link was about the UK, but Sweden is an interesting one. Think there were a lot of  views that compared to the other nordic countries they'd made a bit of a horlicks of things.
All a bit subjective of course.


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## PNWokingham (May 21, 2020)

IainP said:



			I think the link was about the UK, but Sweden is an interesting one. Think there were a lot of  views that compared to the other nordic countries they'd made a bit of a horlicks of things.
All a bit subjective of course.
		
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i don't think we will really know for many months. If we have second waves etc, Sweden are llikely to do a lot better thanother nations even though they suffered from covid more than neighbours - but like us a big negative for them has been care homes. But they will likely have done much better than other nations on mental health and other illnesses like cancer


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## ColchesterFC (May 21, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I am thinking more and more that Sweden have got it right albeit care homes there and here have been a nightmare

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uld-reopen-now-without-risking-public-health/

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IainP said:



			I think the link was about the UK, but Sweden is an interesting one. Think there were a lot of  views that compared to the other nordic countries they'd made a bit of a horlicks of things.
All a bit subjective of course.
		
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Heard on the radio today that they have the highest per-capita death rate in Europe so I'm not sure that they should be held up as a glowing example of how to deal with the virus.

Found this story which admittedly is just for the last 7 days but doesn't paint a pretty picture.....

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-h...ths-per-capita-over-last-7-days-idUKKBN22V26V


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## Lilyhawk (May 21, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i don't think we will really know for many months. If we have second waves etc, Sweden are llikely to do a lot better thanother nations even though they suffered from covid more than neighbours - but like us a big negative for them has been care homes. But they will likely have done much better than other nations on mental health and other illnesses like cancer
		
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Sweden was going for herd immunity. Numbers in Stockholm now showing 7% with antibodies. Planned operations has pretty much come to a halt, so the queues for operations is at record levels.  

But I agree with you that we won’t know right or wrong and the results from this, but I’d say that it’s more likely to say that we won’t know in a year or two rather than months.


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## PNWokingham (May 22, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Sweden was going for herd immunity. Numbers in Stockholm now showing 7% with antibodies. Planned operations has pretty much come to a halt, so the queues for operations is at record levels. 

But I agree with you that we won’t know right or wrong and the results from this, but I’d say that it’s more likely to say that we won’t know in a year or two rather than months.
		
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totally agree. But one thing i do know is that we are going to have to have to get back to economic growth while this disease is still active - ie in the month or so. And that means more focus on isolating the vulerable and moving back to normality with the rest of the population. I hope we are over the wosrt and can start to rapidly work out what went wrong in care homes etc and act on it.


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## USER1999 (May 22, 2020)

A guy from my golf club died from Covid yesterday. I have known about 10 people who have had it, two of which ended in a hospital stay. First person who I know personally that has died. Fit, healthy, mid 50s (not me, him, although I fall into this category ish). It is easy to think it won't be anyone you know, although clearly sooner or later, it will be. The flag will be at half mast when I go in later.


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## Slab (May 22, 2020)

As part of our phased return I’ve been back at the office for over a week now after wfh for two months. The roads are reasonably busy each day but my drive to work is a little bit quicker than normal and I’d guess by the traffic that over half the countries workforce are back doing their jobs and yay for me, I’m not working this weekend, all good so far

However because our curfew period is still in effect we can’t actually leave the house this weekend (unless it’s for medical treatment) so it’ll feel like lockdowns starting all over again. I can get a permit to drive 30k to work but not to go outside for a 30 minute walk


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2020)

My son is having to come to us for financial support as £1000 he is owned for work done in February has not appeared. 

He tells us that all employees of the event management company he does the work for have been furloughed, and, given the nature of the business and the 'ad-hoc' nature of the work he gets from them, he is reluctant to contact them further to push for payment.  I have a horrid feeling he may never see that money.  What a mess. 

Anyway - spoke to a neighbour yesterday who is a South West trains driver.  He was on his way home from work and told us that the trains from our part of the world are basically empty - with Waterloo still very quiet.  I think he said there were 30 passengers all day on the trains from our branch line.


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## drdel (May 22, 2020)

Slab said:



			As part of our phased return I’ve been back at the office for over a week now after wfh for two months. The roads are reasonably busy each day but my drive to work is a little bit quicker than normal and I’d guess by the traffic that over half the countries workforce are back doing their jobs and yay for me, I’m not working this weekend, all good so far

However because our curfew period is still in effect we can’t actually leave the house this weekend (unless it’s for medical treatment) so it’ll feel like lockdowns starting all over again. I can get a permit to drive 30k to work but not to go outside for a 30 minute walk  

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You are allowed to walk as much as you like.


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## Robster59 (May 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			You are allowed to walk as much as you like.
		
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He's not in the UK.


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## USER1999 (May 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			You are allowed to walk as much as you like.
		
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Not in Mauritius.


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## Robster59 (May 22, 2020)

So far I've lost just under a stone in weight (that's about 5-6kg to you young people).  I made a conscious decision not to eat rubbish at home during the lockdown and I need to lose some weight anyway.  It is tempting at time but I'm determined to keep it going.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My son is having to come to us for financial support as £1000 he is owned for work done in February has not appeared. 

He tells us that all employees of the event management company he does the work for have been furloughed, and, given the nature of the business and the 'ad-hoc' nature of the work he gets from them, he is reluctant to contact them further to push for payment.  I have a horrid feeling he may never see that money.  What a mess. 

Click to expand...

We are experiencing the same. Most companies are paying but some are not and digging in. It is surprising how many companies have furloughed staff who make the payments but not the ones who chase for payment .

Do not allow him to be reluctant to chase for payment. If he has done the work he is entitled to the payment. Why should he subsidise others? Can he afford that? The answer is no so he needs to toughen up. Remember the famous words of Don Corleone, 'it's not personal, it's just business'. That is how he needs to look at it or his business will not survive.


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			So far I've lost just under a stone in weight (that's about 5-6kg to you young people).  I made a conscious decision not to eat rubbish at home during the lockdown and I need to lose some weight anyway.  It is tempting at time but I'm determined to keep it going.
		
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I've found 2lbs of what you've lost. Feel free to come and get it... I'll crack the BBQ and open the beer fridge whilst you look for the rest.


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## drdel (May 22, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			He's not in the UK.
		
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Sorry, my mistake.


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## Wolf (May 22, 2020)

Mrs Wolf had an email from her HR yesterday, confirming that the company have made the decision to pay all furloughed staff 100% of their salary, looking at government guidelines likely to return in July but should that be pushed back further no matter how long they're furloughed for company are going to honour 100%. Not to bad when you consider her employer is Mike Ashley's mob 😳


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We are experiencing the same. Most companies are paying but some are not and digging in. It is surprising how many companies have furloughed staff who make the payments but not the ones who chase for payment .

Do not allow him to be reluctant to chase for payment. If he has done the work he is entitled to the payment. Why should he subsidise others? Can he afford that? The answer is no so he needs to toughen up. Remember the famous words of Don Corleone, *'it's not personal, it's just business'.* That is how he needs to look at it or his business will not survive.
		
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Indeed we tried hard to explain that to him last night.

A chasing Email can be understanding of the situation the company is in - and can simply be asking them to acknowledge that they still have to pay him for the work he did on their behalf back in February.

But he is clearly very nervous that he might damage the good relationship he has established with them - they are a small company and the work he gets is all about the relationship he has established with the business manager and those who allocate the jobs among the reps (of which he is but one).  There is also the issue that we think he feels accepting not getting paid might help keep the business afloat, and as he depends on them for more than half of his work...well...we have tried to explain that the business afloat or not is not his problem even though it folding would cause him a massive problem.

Anyway - he has started to consider that there might have to be an alternative working life outside of the performing arts sector - and so is looking into teaching (most likely as half the furloughed workforce may be doing  )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've found 2lbs of what you've lost. Feel free to come and get it... I'll crack the BBQ and open the beer fridge whilst you look for the rest.
		
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I lost more weight earlier this week when my wife cleaned the hairy growth from the back of my neck than I have lost over the last 7 weeks.


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## Imurg (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed we tried hard to explain that to him last night.

A chasing Email can be understanding of the situation the company is in - and can simply be asking them to acknowledge that they still have to pay him for the work he did on their behalf back in February.

But he is clearly very nervous that he might damage the good relationship he has established with them - they are a small company and the work he gets is all about the relationship he has established with the business manager and those who allocate the jobs among the reps (of which he is but one).  There is also the issue that we think he feels accepting not getting paid might help keep the business afloat, and as he depends on them for more than half of his work...well...we have tried to explain that the business afloat or not is not his problem even though it folding would cause him a massive problem.

Anyway - he has started to consider that there might have to be an alternative working life outside of the performing arts sector - and so is looking into teaching (most likely as half the furloughed workforce may be doing  )
		
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I dont think he has a "good " relationship with them - they're not paying him.
In times like these there's no room for sitting back.
He's owed the money, he's got to fight for it. 
They might not be there to return to with or without his money.
He needs to get it.
If asking for payment for work done months ago damages a relationship then there wasn't much of one to start with.


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## SocketRocket (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed we tried hard to explain that to him last night.

A chasing Email can be understanding of the situation the company is in - and can simply be asking them to acknowledge that they still have to pay him for the work he did on their behalf back in February.

But he is clearly very nervous that he might damage the good relationship he has established with them - they are a small company and the work he gets is all about the relationship he has established with the business manager and those who allocate the jobs among the reps (of which he is but one).  There is also the issue that we think he feels accepting not getting paid might help keep the business afloat, and as he depends on them for more than half of his work...well...we have tried to explain that the business afloat or not is not his problem even though it folding would cause him a massive problem.

Anyway - he has started to consider that there might have to be an alternative working life outside of the performing arts sector - and so is looking into teaching (most likely as half the furloughed workforce may be doing  )
		
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Guess he could do some harvesting.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed we tried hard to explain that to him last night.

A chasing Email can be understanding of the situation the company is in - and can simply be asking them to acknowledge that they still have to pay him for the work he did on their behalf back in February.

But he is clearly very nervous that he might damage the good relationship he has established with them - they are a small company and the work he gets is all about the relationship he has established with the business manager and those who allocate the jobs among the reps (of which he is but one).  There is also the issue that we think he feels accepting not getting paid might help keep the business afloat, and as he depends on them for more than half of his work...well...we have tried to explain that the business afloat or not is not his problem even though it folding would cause him a massive problem.

Anyway - he has started to consider that there might have to be an alternative working life outside of the performing arts sector - and so is looking into teaching (most likely as half the furloughed workforce may be doing  )
		
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One thing he may want to try. In communication with them, I would imagine when invoicing, chasing money etc it is email, create a ficticious accounts person. Male or female, take your pick. That 'person' deals with chasing payments, they are separate from your son. That keeps his working relationship separate and untouched. If someone ever rings for them, they are busy, on holiday, only work a couple of days a week etc. That person can be a little more aggressive and impersonal when chasing accounts. It gets back to Don Corelone. It is a good trick and surprisingly effective for 1 man bands, small companies etc who do not employ an accounts person. (I may or may not be talking from personal experience )

Imurg has made a great point in his post, if they are not paying him is the relationship really that good or is it just one way? He needs to be more business like or it will just end up being a glorified hobby.


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## road2ruin (May 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One thing he may want to try. In communication with them, I would imagine when invoicing, chasing money etc it is email, create a ficticious accounts person. Male or female, take your pick. That 'person' deals with chasing payments, they are separate from your son. That keeps his working relationship separate and untouched. If someone ever rings for them, they are busy, on holiday, only work a couple of days a week etc. That person can be a little more aggressive and impersonal when chasing accounts. It gets back to Don Corelone. It is a good trick and surprisingly effective for 1 man bands, small companies etc who do not employ an accounts person. (I may or may not be talking from personal experience )
		
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This is something that I do with 'Alan' in accounts. Alan has his own email address and can be a real pain when he starts chasing invoice payments, he's even threatened to start adding interest to a couple of invoices for those particularly slow at getting things sorted. It does allow me to be more understanding of the companies situation however there isn't much I can do when accounts (Alan) starts chasing as that's his role and who am I to get in the way of him doing what he gets paid for.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 22, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			This is something that I do with 'Alan' in accounts. Alan has his own email address and can be a real pain when he starts chasing invoice payments, he's even threatened to start adding interest to a couple of invoices for those particularly slow at getting things sorted. It does allow me to be more understanding of the companies situation however there isn't much I can do when accounts (Alan) starts chasing as that's his role and who am I to get in the way of him doing what he gets paid for.
		
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Perfect , that is exactly how it works. 'John' used to be our attack dog. John has now moved into the warehouse and is the fall guy for any incorrect shipments sent out.


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## Wolf (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed we tried hard to explain that to him last night.

A chasing Email can be understanding of the situation the company is in - and can simply be asking them to acknowledge that they still have to pay him for the work he did on their behalf back in February.

But he is clearly very nervous that he might damage the good relationship he has established with them - they are a small company and the work he gets is all about the relationship he has established with the business manager and those who allocate the jobs among the reps (of which he is but one).  There is also the issue that we think he feels accepting not getting paid might help keep the business afloat, and as he depends on them for more than half of his work...well...we have tried to explain that the business afloat or not is not his problem even though it folding would cause him a massive problem.

Anyway - he has started to consider that there might have to be an alternative working life outside of the performing arts sector - and so is looking into teaching (most likely as half the furloughed workforce may be doing  )
		
Click to expand...

As others have said there is no relationship if he isn't being paid and should do everything to chase what is owed. 

However that aside I'm pleased to hear he is considering other options such as teaching, will give him a more stable income in a very rewarding career, will be better for his wellbeing knowing he has regular income in a sector thats always going to be needed and hopefully would mean less stress and reliance on you and Mrs SILH. That's a good news takeout of this and I wish him well 👍🏻


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## road2ruin (May 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Perfect , that is exactly how it works. 'John' used to be our attack dog. John has now moved into the warehouse and is the fall guy for any incorrect shipments sent out.
		
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'Alan' does also get blamed when an invoice hasn't been paid our end. I usually have to go and check with accounts as to why it's been missed and then apologise on their behalf!


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## Lilyhawk (May 22, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			totally agree. But one thing i do know is that we are going to have to have to get back to economic growth while this disease is still active - ie in the month or so. And that means more focus on isolating the vulerable and moving back to normality with the rest of the population. I hope we are over the wosrt and can start to rapidly work out what went wrong in care homes etc and act on it.
		
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An interesting thing one of my best mates told me this weekend was that, even though Sweden hasn't had a lockdown, his brother works for one of Sweden's biggest beer breweries, and YoY they're down 70% during this period. So, I guess the takeaway from this is that we need to start drinking again to get up and running towards normailty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I dont think he has a "good " relationship with them - they're not paying him.
In times like these there's no room for sitting back.
He's owed the money, he's got to fight for it.
They might not be there to return to with or without his money.
He needs to get it.
If asking for payment for work done months ago damages a relationship then there wasn't much of one to start with.
		
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You are right.  We've said exactly all of that to him last night.  And he gets it.  But he is just so very wary and worried about causing them any hassle...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			This is something that I do with 'Alan' in accounts. Alan has his own email address and can be a real pain when he starts chasing invoice payments, he's even threatened to start adding interest to a couple of invoices for those particularly slow at getting things sorted. It does allow me to be more understanding of the companies situation however there isn't much I can do when accounts (Alan) starts chasing as that's his role and who am I to get in the way of him doing what he gets paid for.
		
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Definitely something to consider doing for the future - if there is a future for venue-based performing arts ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2020)

Wolf said:



			As others have said there is no relationship if he isn't being paid and should do everything to chase what is owed.

However that aside I'm pleased to hear he is considering other options such as teaching, will give him a more stable income in a very rewarding career, will be better for his wellbeing knowing he has regular income in a sector thats always going to be needed and hopefully would mean less stress and reliance on you and Mrs SILH. That's a good news takeout of this and I wish him well 👍🏻
		
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It is ... he sounds quite enthusiastic about an alternative that could see him teaching Media Studies, Journalism, Communications - even English 

His problem is always going to be that he is currently doing his 'dream job' - you know - that one we are told to imagine doing but that few of us ever get to do - even if we have a clue what it might be.  He is doing it.  And because of that every other job will start as, at best, a second best...but hey.  He knows his whole career in the performing arts sector - that he has been work so hard over the last 5 years to establish - is currently exploded and up in the air, and when the bits come down it most probably will look very different - at least for the coming year or so.

Anyway...


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## Slab (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is ... he sounds quite enthusiastic about an alternative that could see him teaching *1]* *Media Studies, 2] Journalism, 3] Communications - even 4] English*

His problem is always going to be that he is currently doing his 'dream job' - you know - that one we are told to imagine doing but that few of us ever get to do - even if we have a clue what it might be.  He is doing it.  And because of that every other job will start as, at best, a second best...but hey.  He knows his whole career in the performing arts sector is currently exploded and up in the air, and when the bits come down comes it most probably will look very different - at least for the coming year or so.

Anyway...
		
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So a career teaching either how to;

Read newspapers
Write newspapers
Talk about what’s in the newspapers
Something never used in newspapers


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## Italian outcast (May 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One thing he may want to try. In communication with them, I would imagine when invoicing, chasing money etc it is email, create a ficticious accounts *person*. Male or female, take your pick. That 'person' deals with chasing payments, they are separate from your son. That keeps his working relationship separate and untouched. If someone ever rings for them, they are busy, on holiday, only work a couple of days a week etc. That person can be a little more aggressive and impersonal when chasing accounts. It gets back to Don Corelone. It is a good trick and surprisingly effective for 1 man bands, small companies etc who do not employ an accounts person. (I may or may not be talking from personal experience )

Imurg has made a great point in his post, if they are not paying him is the relationship really that good or is it just one way? He needs to be more business like or it will just end up being a glorified hobby.
		
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You can expand your team quite easily - My dog Rafy did this a few years back


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## chellie (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right.  We've said exactly all of that to him last night.  And he gets it.  But he is just so very wary and worried about causing them any hassle...

Click to expand...

What are his normal payment terms for the invoice he's issued. He should be sticking to that and chasing them like others have said.


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## PNWokingham (May 22, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			An interesting thing one of my best mates told me this weekend was that, even though Sweden hasn't had a lockdown, his brother works for one of Sweden's biggest beer breweries, and YoY they're down 70% during this period. So, I guess the takeaway from this is that *we need to start drinking again t*o get up and running towards normailty. 

Click to expand...

i never stopped and am doing my best to help overall economic activity!!


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## DRW (May 22, 2020)

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30610-3

This could be great news if really true and maybe in my basic thinking perhaps explains why some get it bad, some not lottery etc. and a future for treatments as well.


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## Slime (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right.  We've said exactly all of that to him last night.  And he gets it.  *But he is just so very wary and worried about causing them any hassle...*

Click to expand...

What!
They owe him a load of money ....................................... it's all about priorities.
I bet he needs it more than they do.


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## Hobbit (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed we tried hard to explain that to him last night.

A chasing Email can be understanding of the situation the company is in - and can simply be asking them to acknowledge that they still have to pay him for the work he did on their behalf back in February.

But he is clearly very nervous that he might damage the good relationship he has established with them - they are a small company and the work he gets is all about the relationship he has established with the business manager and those who allocate the jobs among the reps (of which he is but one).  There is also the issue that we think he feels accepting not getting paid might help keep the business afloat, and as he depends on them for more than half of his work...well...we have tried to explain that the business afloat or not is not his problem even though it folding would cause him a massive problem.

Anyway - he has started to consider that there might have to be an alternative working life outside of the performing arts sector - and so is looking into teaching (most likely as half the furloughed workforce may be doing  )
		
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Its a tough one Hugh. Start up businesses often get confused between good relationships and professional relationships. He's in a really tough position. If he hasn't already, he needs to issue an invoice with payment terms. At some point in the future, especially if he moves away from the sector, he needs to chase what isn't an insignificant sum for him.

As an aside, and this is personal to your relationship to and with him, you're not a million miles away from retiring. You can't be the bank of mum and dad forever. He especially needs to recognise that there will come a point when you can't help out the way you have. Been there, and you know what, they find a way to sort themselves out.

Good luck to him and you all on this one.


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## huds1475 (May 22, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30610-3

This could be great news if really true and maybe in my basic thinking perhaps explains why some get it bad, some not lottery etc. and a future for treatments as well.
		
Click to expand...

Summary requires more abbreviations to help it flow better 😂


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## funkycoldmedina (May 22, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30610-3

This could be great news if really true and maybe in my basic thinking perhaps explains why some get it bad, some not lottery etc. and a future for treatments as well.
		
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So is this paper saying that there is already a level of adaptive immunity in the community based on other exposures to members of the coronavirus family? Is that your interpretation?
This means that's there's a level of immunity already present in the community and though it may not be specific to Covid-19 it can help in producing lower or asymptomatic symptoms?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 22, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Summary requires more abbreviations to help it flow better 😂
		
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Welcome to the world of science papers, you need an enigma codebreaker alongside a science degree🤣🤣


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## DRW (May 22, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Summary requires more abbreviations to help it flow better 😂
		
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It is like WTH

And the detailed paper isn't much better when I scan read it :-

https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30610-3.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420306103%3Fshowall%3Dtrue



funkycoldmedina said:



			So is this paper saying that there is already a level of adaptive immunity in the community based on other exposures to members of the coronavirus family? Is that your interpretation?
This means that's there's a level of immunity already present in the community and though it may not be specific to Covid-19 it can help in producing lower or asymptomatic symptoms?
		
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I think so, certainly how I read it, plus viral loading, would imagine you may know more? I know sweet toddles about it to be honest, just enjoy the reading up about it all. Going to look for some write ups of the paper tonight, if there are any, perhaps in plain English to understand more of it

There goes an evening of banter with the wife


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## funkycoldmedina (May 22, 2020)

DRW said:



			It is like WTH

And the detailed paper isn't much better when I scan read it :-

https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30610-3.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420306103%3Fshowall%3Dtrue



I think so, certainly how I read it, plus viral loading, would imagine you may know more? I know sweet toddles about it to be honest, just enjoy the reading up about it all. Going to look for some write ups of the paper tonight, if there are any, perhaps in plain English to understand more of it

There goes an evening of banter with the wife

Click to expand...

@Backache seems to have good knowledge around this area, way better than mine. The way I interpret the viral loading is that the initial innate immune response which gives you all your fever etc goes into overdrive the more virus is initially taken on board. It's then up to your adaptive immune system to come up with the antibody. If you have other antibodies full previous corona virus infections maybe they can help dampen down the innate response?


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## Fish (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My son is having to come to us for financial support as £1000 he is owned for work done in February has not appeared.

He tells us that all employees of the event management company he does the work for have been furloughed, and, given the nature of the business and the 'ad-hoc' nature of the work he gets from them, he is reluctant to contact them further to push for payment.  I have a horrid feeling he may never see that money.  What a mess. 

Anyway - spoke to a neighbour yesterday who is a South West trains driver.  He was on his way home from work and told us that the trains from our part of the world are basically empty - with Waterloo still very quiet.  I think he said there were 30 passengers all day on the trains from our branch line.
		
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Simply send a ‘final invoice’ which if not paid by return will result in a late payment charge of £40.00. 

He can raise this himself without charge, then if not paid or responded to in 72hrs, simply send the late payment charge invoice, which usually does the trick, as in that invoice you simply state that court action will be sort should they account not be fully brought up to date, inclusive of the late payment charge. 

We’re not banks for these kind of companies.


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## Fish (May 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are right.  We've said exactly all of that to him last night.  And he gets it.  But he is just so very wary and worried about causing them any hassle...

Click to expand...

Then he’ll never be successful in business then, I’m sorry but if he’s sympathetic to their situation above his own, then he needs to get a PAYE job as soon as possible.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

This is a good article about why we might not get a perfectly formed coronavirus vaccine

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...accine?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


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## Slime (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			This is a good article about why we might not get a perfectly formed coronavirus vaccine

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...accine?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Click to expand...

What a miserable headline;
*Why we might not get a coronavirus vaccine.*
Jeez, how pessimistic is that? A headline based on supposition. 
So then, they don't know that we won't find a vaccine but's let's be pessimistic anyway, it'll probably get more attention.
No wonder so many people are having mental health issues.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			What a miserable headline;
*Why we might not get a coronavirus vaccine.*
Jeez, how pessimistic is that? A headline based on supposition. 
So then, they don't know that we won't find a vaccine but's let's be pessimistic anyway, it'll probably get more attention.
No wonder so many people are having mental health issues.
		
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It's actually a well balanced well researched article which I'm guessing you didn't bother reading.


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## Slime (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It's actually a well balanced well researched article which I'm guessing you didn't bother reading.
		
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No, which is why I only commented on the headline.
It may well be a good article but I'm not overly interested in articles with such negative headlines right now.
There's enough misery in the media without needlessly adding to it, in my opinion.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			No, which is why I only commented on the headline.
It may well be a good article but I'm not overly interested in articles with such negative headlines right now.
There's enough misery in the media without needlessly adding to it, in my opinion.
		
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Each to their own, it talks about how we may not get a coverall vaccine but there are other options and how we've adapted other strategies on top of the issues around finding a viral vaccine.
On a wider point I do find the running down and disbelief in mainstream media a worrying trend. Broadsheets and the BBC are brim full of quality journalism which is well researched and well presented. I would happily read articles from the telegraph, times, independent etc. The demonisation of them over the last few years is a race to the bottom imho


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## bobmac (May 23, 2020)

When I want to know about vaccines, I'd rather listen to a vaccinologist.


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## Blue in Munich (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			It's actually a well balanced well researched article which I'm guessing you didn't bother reading.
		
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It appears to be well researched, but it does very much tend to the negative.  The virus' nearest relation is SARS, which has effectively died out; why could this not do the same, and where was that possibility mentioned?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			When I want to know about vaccines, I'd rather listen to a vaccinologist.
		
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So science journalism isn't for you then?
I can almost guarantee a vaccinologist couldn't bring all the different strands together into a way lay people will understand. Most journalists reporting on science have been educated and worked in the science sector.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It appears to be well researched, but it does very much tend to the negative.  The virus' nearest relation is SARS, which has effectively died out; why could this not do the same, and where was that possibility mentioned?
		
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Read the last 2 paragraphs


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## Blue in Munich (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Read the last 2 paragraphs
		
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I did; it's an afterthought quote rather than any balanced view from the journalist as far as I'm concerned.  The bias of the article is still very much looking for the negatives.  It could have looked as why SARS effectively died out, what comparisons there are between the two, and whether that is a viable option.  It didn't, it relied on one quote at the end for its "balance".  It also factually states that the virus is here to stay, whilst SARS apparently isn't, so again, tending to the negative for me.


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## bobmac (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			So science journalism isn't for you then?
I can almost guarantee a vaccinologist couldn't bring all the different strands together into a way lay people will understand. Most journalists reporting on science have been educated and worked in the science sector.
		
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Ian Sample is a physicist and wrote a book on the Higgs Boson 10 years ago.
He is not an expert on vaccines


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I did; it's an afterthought quote rather than any balanced view from the journalist as far as I'm concerned.  The bias of the article is still very much looking for the negatives.  It could have looked as why SARS effectively died out, what comparisons there are between the two, and whether that is a viable option.  It didn't, it relied on one quote at the end for its "balance".  It also factually states that the virus is here to stay, whilst SARS apparently isn't, so again, tending to the negative for me.
		
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If I remember correctly SARS human to human transmission was very low which lead to it disappearing which clearly isn't relevant with Covid-19. Apart from it having structural similarities to Covid-19 it's not a great epidemiological comparison.


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## Blue in Munich (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			If I remember correctly *SARS human to human transmission was very low which lead to it disappearing* which clearly isn't relevant with Covid-19. Apart from it having structural similarities to Covid-19 it's not a great epidemiological comparison.
		
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Then why doesn't the well researched article state that to remove any doubt, rather than leaving room for interpretation?


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Then why doesn't the well researched article state that to remove any doubt, rather than leaving room for interpretation?
		
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Maybe just maybe you came at the article with wanting pick holes in it and therefore found what you wanted. I just read an article that informed and wasn't try to scaremonger but just offer insight to many of the issues that scientists could and will be facing in the coming months and how other examples will inform them.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Ian Sample is a physicist and wrote a book on the Higgs Boson 10 years ago.
He is not an expert on vaccines
		
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He has a PhD in biomedical science. At least do your research if you're going to discredit someone.


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## Blue in Munich (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Maybe just maybe you came at the article with wanting pick holes in it and therefore found what you wanted. I just read an article that informed and wasn't try to scaremonger but just offer insight to many of the issues that scientists could and will be facing in the coming months and how other examples will inform them.
		
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Or maybe I just read it, acknowledged the fact that it appeared to be well researched, but found it tended towards the negative, and defended that opinion when challenged.  I was quite happy to acknowledge that it appeared well researched, why wouldn't I happy to acknowledge it was well balanced if that's how I felt?  Why you feel the need to try to pick holes in differing opinions I don't know.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 23, 2020)

There is some disinformation, careless or otherwise, in all dramatic news, of course. 
So what to believe?

As with the question of a covid vaccine .
We know that Oxford Uni are conducting trials on humans of a vaccine. That has been going on for a little while.
But just last week I read that there are reports that the laboratory had got a situation where all the monkeys they had vaccinated, and then (attempted to ) infect had shown signs of getting covid: thus the vaccine hadn't worked.

Bugger, you think.  Then , I ask, why would the laboratory test on monkeys, and get a failure, yet still to go on doing human trials?

Doesn't make practical or moral sense, to my mind.

Or could it be that the monkeys story is disinformation,( intentional or reckless or careless)

So, until the Professor and her team at Oxford report officially, I'll still keep positively hoping.


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## bobmac (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			He has a PhD in biomedical science. At least do your research if you're going to discredit someone.
		
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I did, that's how I found out he is a physicist, not a vaccinologist


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I did, that's how I found out he is a physicist, not a vaccinologist
		
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"Ian Sample is a science correspondent at The Guardian, and before that at New Scientist. He holds a PhD in biomedical science and was named investigative journalist of the year in 2005 by the Association of British Science Writers"


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There is some disinformation, careless or otherwise, in all dramatic news, of course.
So what to believe?

As with the question of a covid vaccine .
We know that Oxford Uni are conducting trials on humans of a vaccine. That has been going on for a little while.
But just last week I read that there are reports that the laboratory had got a situation where all the monkeys they had vaccinated, and then (attempted to ) infect had shown signs of getting covid: thus the vaccine hadn't worked.

Bugger, you think.  Then , I ask, why would the laboratory test on monkeys, and get a failure, yet still to go on doing human trials?

Doesn't make practical or moral sense, to my mind.

Or could it be that the monkeys story is disinformation,( intentional or reckless or careless)

So, until the Professor and her team at Oxford report officially, I'll still keep positively hoping.
		
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Peobably because their initial human studies arent at therauptic doses theyre toxicology bssed. They'll be running therapeutic doses and higher in primates for proof of concept


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## bobmac (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			"Ian Sample is a science correspondent at The Guardian, and before that at New Scientist. He holds a PhD in biomedical science and was named investigative journalist of the year in 2005 by the Association of British Science Writers"
		
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Yes, I know, I did my research.
But I repeat, If I want to know about vaccines, I'll listen to a vaccinologist.


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## funkycoldmedina (May 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Yes, I know, I did my research.
But I repeat, If I want to know about vaccines, I'll listen to a vaccinologist.
		
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There's no arguing with that 😊


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2020)

Positivity tinged with sadness.

282 reported fatalities today vs 468, 345, 621, 843, 1115 on previous Saturdays. 

Patients in hospital with coronavirus 11% down on last week.


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## larmen (May 23, 2020)

Centre parks now cancelled for June as well, and it is getting prohibitively expensive for the weeks they are (currently) still showing available.

A shame as the little one is starting school in September and then we are reliant on term times going forward. This was the last ‘bargain’ year.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			Centre parks now cancelled for June as well, and it is getting prohibitively expensive for the weeks they are (currently) still showing available.

A shame as the little one is starting school in September and then we are reliant on term times going forward. This was the last ‘bargain’ year.
		
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Welcome to Centre Parcs in February half term, sharing with another family 😁. Good fun still but not as pleasant as June I'll grant you.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 23, 2020)

funkycoldmedina said:



			He has a PhD in biomedical science. At least do your research if you're going to discredit someone.
		
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Aren't his qualifications in "biomedical  materials"?

Now I'm no scientist but that does appear to be rather a long way from the development of vaccines.


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## larmen (May 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Welcome to Centre Parcs in February half term, sharing with another family 😁. Good fun still but not as pleasant as June I'll grant you.
		
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We are going to spend a week in Durham instead, there is an old couple with a nice big house happy to take in visitors ;-)


We have done CP in February before. It was OK and a log of activities are indoors anyway. We did the very beginning, so might have been the bargain before the half term break.
But with everyone now staying in the UK it will be like eBay for those few hundred cottages available. All the people that would go skiing plus the ones that would go to CP.

We just have to see what happens. It’s likely to be visiting family in Germany if allowed next year. I don’t think this year will be a possibility at all, including Xmas.


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## bobmac (May 24, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Aren't his qualifications in "biomedical  materials"?

Now I'm no scientist but that does appear to be rather a long way from the development of vaccines.
		
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Some sites say materials and some say science.
Hard to tell as it was over 20 years ago.

And you're right, he hasn't done much in the vaccine department.
In fact, he hasn't done many experiments in anything...

_''My name is Ian Sample. I am the Guardian's science editor. I found my way into journalism from science after realising I was constantly more fascinated in other peoples' experiments than my own ''_

Ian Sample


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2020)

larmen said:



			We are going to spend a week in Durham instead, there is an old couple with a nice big house happy to take in visitors ;-)


We have done CP in February before. It was OK and a log of activities are indoors anyway. We did the very beginning, so might have been the bargain before the half term break.
But with everyone now staying in the UK it will be like eBay for those few hundred cottages available. All the people that would go skiing plus the ones that would go to CP.

We just have to see what happens. It’s likely to be visiting family in Germany if allowed next year. I don’t think this year will be a possibility at all, including Xmas.
		
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We did it in January and February a few times and had a great time with our kids. The last time we decided to treat ourselves and go in May. It was a lot more pleasant, less layers required, less to stuff in the swimming lockers 😁. It allowed us to do so many more outdoor activities but there is no way we could have gone as often, the price difference is so large, as you are well aware. I'm sure you will enjoy Durham, there is lots to do around there 👍


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## PNWokingham (May 24, 2020)

another opinion against lockdown

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...es-may-have-cost-nobel-prize-winner-believes/


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Interesting:

Here are the latest daily infection figures for the four European countries that eased their lockdowns back in mid-April (accelerating since).

Denmark - 59
Norway - 14
Czech Republic - 77
Austria - 50

No second wave, not even a tiny ripple.


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Interesting:

Here are the latest daily infection figures for the four European countries that eased their lockdowns back in mid-April (accelerating since).

Denmark - 59
Norway - 14
Czech Republic - 77
Austria - 50

No second wave, not even a tiny ripple.
		
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All quite small countries with low population density  so much easier to control.  One of the big sucsess stories must be London


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## larmen (May 24, 2020)

Germany did report low numbers as well, but then you also have stories about 10 (so far) people got it from the same restaurant they went to on the same day (not 1 party, separate tables still) or 80 people infected in the same meat factory, ...

So overall it is going down, but it is a bit of luck in the draw if you have been at the wrong place by choice (restaurant) or by default (work).
I don't want to be the decision maker.

edit: Well, looks like people were telling porkies and there might have been a party in teh restaurant after all instead of just diners going out in separate settings.



On positive notes, it looks like a test is available now that shows if one ever had it? That could give some piece of mind and take the worry away, especially if  apparently 1 in 6 in London had it already. Not a vaccine yet, but progress to the world of 'unknown' most of us are currently in it. We 'all' had some kind of sniffle since Christmas and we 'all' hope that we might be immune already.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Interesting:

Here are the latest daily infection figures for the four European countries that eased their lockdowns back in mid-April (accelerating since).

Denmark - 59
Norway - 14
Czech Republic - 77
Austria - 50

No second wave, not even a tiny ripple.
		
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We need more good news stories like this. I know the fear is that everyone will then go out and break all the rules thinking it is over but these countries have managed it so surely we can as well.

Thanks for posting this 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 24, 2020)

Bit more positivity, apologies if it isn’t positive enough for some: copied from twitter.

118 reported fatalities today vs 170, 269, 315, 420, 498, 686, 644 on previous Sundays - a strong decline.

New infections at 2409 which is the lowest since March.

The number of people in hospital with Coronavirus down.

Everything is going in the right direction.


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## Wolf (May 24, 2020)

One positive for me out of this I've hugely rediscovered my love of outdoor endurance training. I'd discussed on here previously with another poster by end of lockdown I wanted to see if I still had it in me to complete the Commando 30miler test (30 miles on foot in 8 hrs carrying 40lbs). Happy to say set off this morning nice and early across the fens and got back home 7 hrs & 49mins later, I'm now sat in the conservatory unable to move 😂

But loved every minute of it, and think I'm going to sign up for some insane challenge post Covid-19 and do a bit for charity.


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## fundy (May 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Bit more positivity, apologies if it isn’t positive enough for some: copied from twitter.

118 reported fatalities today vs 170, 269, 315, 420, 498, 686, 644 on previous Sundays - a strong decline.

New infections at 2409 which is the lowest since March.

The number of people in hospital with Coronavirus down.

*Everything is going in the right direction*.
		
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everything bar the govt and its credibility that is


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			One positive for me out of this I've hugely rediscovered my love of outdoor endurance training. I'd discussed on here previously with another poster by end of lockdown I wanted to see if I still had it in me to complete the Commando 30miler test (30 miles on foot in 8 hrs carrying 40lbs). Happy to say set off this morning nice and early across the fens and got back home 7 hrs & 49mins later, I'm now sat in the conservatory unable to move 😂

But loved every minute of it, and think I'm going to sign up for some insane challenge post Covid-19 and do a bit for charity.
		
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Do you always carry that many sandwiches, 7 miler every day is enough for me, nice stroll n the hills and finish with a sausage roll - don't tell HID.


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## Beezerk (May 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			One positive for me out of this I've hugely rediscovered my love of outdoor endurance training. I'd discussed on here previously with another poster by end of lockdown I wanted to see if I still had it in me to complete the Commando 30miler test (30 miles on foot in 8 hrs carrying 40lbs). Happy to say set off this morning nice and early across the fens and got back home 7 hrs & 49mins later, I'm now sat in the conservatory unable to move 😂

But loved every minute of it, and think I'm going to sign up for some insane challenge post Covid-19 and do a bit for charity.
		
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🤣🤣🤣 Legend mate 👏


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## Wolf (May 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Do you always carry that many sandwiches, 7 miler every day is enough for me, nice stroll n the hills and finish with a sausage roll - don't tell HID.
		
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May have sneaked an entire pack of Maryland cookies in there as well as little energy boosters 😉😂



Beezerk said:



			🤣🤣🤣 Legend mate 👏
		
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Legend.. I think you misspelled Stupid 😂😂


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Wolf said:



			May have sneaked an entire pack of Maryland cookies in there as well as little energy boosters 😉😂


Legend.. I think you misspelled Stupid 😂😂
		
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Correct  its taken you how many years to realise this.  Tracks + big gun = the ability to carry many sandwiches and some pork pies


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## Fish (May 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Correct  its taken you how many years to realise this.  Tracks + big gun = the ability to carry many sandwiches and some pork pies 

Click to expand...

When I was in Batus, every spare space in the tanks was full with cases of bottled beer, which to be fair to the tankies, they shared with us.


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## Old Skier (May 24, 2020)

Fish said:



			When I was in Batus, every spare space in the tanks was full with cases of bottled beer, which to be fair to the tankies, they shared with us.
		
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Mythe I tell you, mythe, those labatts bottles were full of insect repellent.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 24, 2020)

Catching up with the Hospital documentaries from the Royal Free during the Covid crisis. Very interesting from a personal and professional perspective to see how other hospitals managed. Granted it'll be subject to editing to make it as "dramatic" for the viewer as possible but interesting viewing


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 24, 2020)

The great pandemic seems to have changed me in an unexpectedly pernicious way.

I enjoy being a recluse much more than I may have suspected.

I doubt that I'll ever be the same person that I was as we come out the other side of this thing.

Far more trying experiences than this plague seemed to change me a lot less.

Maybe experiencing travails as an older person has greater effect.


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## Blue in Munich (May 25, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			another opinion against lockdown

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...es-may-have-cost-nobel-prize-winner-believes/

Click to expand...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...te-time-kill-saved-claims-Nobel-laureate.html

Similar/same article but without the paywall block, apologies to the Daily Mail haters.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

Positive news off Twitter: Prof Sikora.

Really encouraging to read Dr María Neira, the WHO Director for Public Health, say their models are showing a second wave being increasingly ruled out.

Caution required, but she thinks that the virus will have a hard time surviving.

The most optimistic the WHO have been!


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## Slab (May 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Positive news off Twitter: Prof Sikora.

Really encouraging to read Dr María Neira, the WHO Director for Public Health, say their models are showing a second wave being increasingly ruled out.

Caution required, but she thinks that the virus will have a hard time surviving.

The most optimistic the WHO have been!
		
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Wasn't it less than 24 hours ago the WHO were issuing warnings about second wave/peaks etc

This kind of thing does my head in 

edit: not you doing my head in, the WHO


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## GB72 (May 26, 2020)

Slab said:



			Wasn't it less than 24 hours ago the WHO were issuing warnings about second wave/peaks etc

This kind of thing does my head in 

edit: not you doing my head in, the WHO 

Click to expand...

Feeling the same, the WHO seem to flip flop from one position to another depending on what message they feel they want to make on any given day. Really do not think that they are coming out of this well at all and could have had a far bigger roll in drafting global advice and guidance and correlating the health information coming from each country.


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## spongebob59 (May 26, 2020)

Is this the same WHO , who said there was no problem in China


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2020)

Slab said:



			Wasn't it less than 24 hours ago the WHO were issuing warnings about second wave/peaks etc

This kind of thing does my head in 

edit: not you doing my head in, the WHO 

Click to expand...

Hadn’t seen the other link mate, but my glass is half full.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

...I've managed 2 x 18 holes and 3 x 9 holes without a s***k 

However - my mind and body still know that they are there and I know that they are desperate to get out and show themselves...


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## Billysboots (May 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I've managed 2 x 18 holes and 3 x 9 holes without a s***k 

However - my mind and body still know that they are there and I know that they are desperate to get out and show themselves...

Click to expand...

Now you’ve done it! Even though you’ve not said the word, you’ve thought it. That, in my considerable experience, is often all it takes. I can go months without one, but if I then stand over the ball and think I’m going to do it, guess what happens?!

Can’t wait now for your next update 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Now you’ve done it! Even though you’ve not said the word, you’ve thought it. That, in my considerable experience, is often all it takes. I can go months without one, but if I then stand over the ball and think I’m going to do it, guess what happens?!

Can’t wait now for your next update 😉
		
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So right.

After I finished last night my buddy asked how I do my little 'Scottish' bump and run.  He'd tried it on our last hole and it didn't work for him.

I went to the side of the green; chucked a ball down, addressed it, and took a careless swish.  Yup.  You've already guessed what happened.  So gobsmacked was I that I chucked another one done - yup - same thing.  But I reassure myself that I did it because I hadn't taken any care.  I have a good idea why I do it (I steer the club away from my body as I start my backswing) and how to not do it...(bring it back 'inside' and try and miss the ball on my downswing).

However...I shall indeed report back...I will now count down from 100 to wipe the thought from my mind.  100-99-98...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So right.

After I finished last night my buddy asked how I do my little 'Scottish' bump and run.  He'd tried it on our last hole and it didn't work for him.

I went to the side of the green; chucked a ball down, addressed it, and took a careless swish.  Yup.  You've already guessed what happened.  So gobsmacked was I that I chucked another one done - yup - same thing.  But I reassure myself that I did it because I hadn't taken any care.  I have a good idea why I do it (I steer the club away from my body as I start my backswing) and how to not do it...(bring it back 'inside' and try and miss the ball on my downswing).

However...I shall indeed report back...I will now count down from 100 to wipe the thought from my mind.  100-99-98...
		
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Well - I played 15holes without a Lucy Locket - though I did thin three and caught a couple very heavy as in each case I lost trust in my swing from the top of my backswing and tried to 'steer' the club back to the ball - always likely to cause me big probs.  But on all of my 'bogey' holes where the unfortunates usually leap out screaming - they were nicely silent and I hit shots that - as I told my buddy - had me dancing a little Highland Scottische inside.

For the Philistines - dancing a HS to the music of the Gods...one of my favourite dances to a set of fabulous dance tunes - yes I know - and yes - dancing like this with social distancing is going to be tricky   But in the time of Covid, Scottish Fiddle Orchestra music thrills and lifts my spirits.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 27, 2020)

Numbers starting to drift upwards again to the point where Covid outnumber ordinary ICU patients so there are still cases at least locally. Hopefully it isn't a sign of a local spike to come although bar the new patients in the last 48 hours most have been here a while now. Some areas are sending staff back to their normal duties after being seconded to Covid rules and so bit by bit the hospital is trying to get back on a more "normal" footing


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## Robster59 (May 27, 2020)

Not so much affecting myself but I found this article about the human cost of misinformation.
Coronavirus: The human cost of virus misinformation
Some of it is really sad reading and is an indictment of what people are getting from their leaders and also what rubbish people put on Social Media and the fact that people are willing to believe it.  I think the thing is that some people think that if they don't believe it, it doesn't exist.  It's almost like a "La La La, I'm not listening" culture.


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Numbers starting to drift upwards again to the point where Covid outnumber ordinary ICU patients so there are still cases at least locally. Hopefully it isn't a sign of a local spike to come although bar the new patients in the last 48 hours most have been here a while now. Some areas are sending staff back to their normal duties after being seconded to Covid rules and so bit by bit the hospital is trying to get back on a more "normal" footing
		
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Figure bump could be the normal weekend plus a bank holiday


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## HomerJSimpson (May 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Figure bump could be the normal weekend plus a bank holiday
		
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Indeed. There is a wave of nervousness around the place that it isn't the trickle before another surge given the good weather for the last few weekends and the bank holidays but trying to remain positive.


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## Slime (May 27, 2020)

There will be no surge ................................ there, I predict it.


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## Fish (May 28, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Not so much affecting myself but I found this article about the human cost of misinformation.
Coronavirus: The human cost of virus misinformation
Some of it is really sad reading and is an indictment of what people are getting from their leaders and also what rubbish people put on Social Media and the fact that people are willing to believe it.  I think the thing is that some people think that if they don't believe it, it doesn't exist.  It's almost like a "La La La, I'm not listening" culture.
		
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I’ve seen a huge difference on the roads the last week, other than not seeing big spikes in rush hour traffic due to so many still not back at work, daytime driving is actually worse, because all those not working aren’t sat at home, they’re driving about doing stuff!

What lockdown 🤷‍♂️


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## MegaSteve (May 28, 2020)

Slime said:



			There will be no surge ................................ there, I predict it.
		
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I truly believe that is the outcome we are all wishing for...


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## MegaSteve (May 28, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’ve seen a huge difference on the roads the last week, other than not seeing big spikes in rush hour traffic due to so many still not back at work, daytime driving is actually worse, because all those not working aren’t sat at home, they’re driving about doing stuff!

What lockdown 🤷‍♂️
		
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First days of lockdown we didn't have to look left or right to crossover the road to get into the woods... Yesterday we had to wait several minutes for a gap to appear in traffic...


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## SaintHacker (May 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Indeed. There is a wave of nervousness around the place that it isn't the trickle before another surge given the good weather for the last few weekends and the bank holidays but trying to remain positive.
		
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I'm obviously not an epidemiologist or a virologist, so this is personal opinion, but I don't think we will see a second surge as such. I expect numbers to rise slightly, given that people are starting to move round a bit more a small increase is probably inevitable. But with the way people are now aware of how to avoid it, the lack of international travel, the social distancing measures in place, and the amount of knowledge we now have about how the virus transmits and affects people I think will see it continue to die out, despite what Karen on facebook says...


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## chellie (May 28, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’ve seen a huge difference on the roads the last week, other than not seeing big spikes in rush hour traffic due to so many still not back at work, daytime driving is actually worse, because all those not working aren’t sat at home, they’re driving about doing stuff!

What lockdown 🤷‍♂️
		
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Some could be going to play golf


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## HomerJSimpson (May 28, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm obviously not an epidemiologist or a virologist, so this is personal opinion, but I don't think we will see a second surge as such. I expect numbers to rise slightly, given that people are starting to move round a bit more a small increase is probably inevitable. But with the way people are now aware of how to avoid it, the lack of international travel, the social distancing measures in place, and the amount of knowledge we now have about how the virus transmits and affects people I think will see it continue to die out, despite what Karen on facebook says...
		
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Not sure abut it dying out and I think it is here for a while especially once winter comes. I guess a great unknown would be if it mutates seasonally like the flu bug. I do think there will be another rise, not as severe as the first time, but enough to fill plenty of hospital beds again. I hope there isn't anything significant if only from the purely selfish reason of loving to be golfing again, and I do agree people have been good with distancing etc but as times goes on, how blase will they become and take it for granted it is all over?


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## GB72 (May 28, 2020)

Am I right in thinking that now in Scotland you can meet with another household in your garden whilst observing social distancing. 

This would be a massive leap forward for me just being able to have a beer with my friends in the village if this is added to what you can do in England.


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## AmandaJR (May 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Am I right in thinking that now in Scotland you can meet with another household in your garden whilst observing social distancing.

This would be a massive leap forward for me just being able to have a beer with my friends in the village if this is added to what you can do in England.
		
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That's what was on the news. From tomorrow I think? Not sure on the last point but 100% meeting in outside space or garden.


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## GB72 (May 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			That's what was on the news. From tomorrow I think? Not sure on the last point but 100% meeting in outside space or garden.
		
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Fingers crossed that we get similar announced tonight.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2020)

Well the rumours that he will announce you can meet more households outside in parks etc 

Can meet one household in your garden but only one a day 

Can meet family members in your garden etc


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## pauljames87 (May 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well the rumours that he will announce you can meet more households outside in parks etc 

Can meet one household in your garden but only one a day 

Can meet family members in your garden etc
		
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Only one at a time tho, the wife has been meeting her mum in garden whilst I stay inside and just clean up when she leaves


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2020)

Our daughter is 25 on Saturday.  After much deliberation we have decided to declare our back garden a private park.  It is easily accessible from the public road without going through the house.  And so on Sat afternoon daughter and b/friend will set themselves up in our Private Park; we will go out for a long walk; and she will have friends round one or two at a time to sit - socially distanced - in our Private Park.  Her friends have each been provided with an 'afternoon tea' time


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## Fish (May 28, 2020)

chellie said:



			Some could be going to play golf

Click to expand...

Not unless they’ve got family memberships as most cars are not single occupancy, they’re rammed with the whole family in tow 😳

Always worse on a Friday, every supermarket pharmacy I delivered to today had rammed car parks and queues stretching a good par 5 😜


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## road2ruin (May 29, 2020)

We are meeting up with friends (6 of us) on Sunday afternoon for a few drinks in the sunshine. Really looking forward to the more relaxed social interaction rather than the awkward meeting whilst on a walk and constantly moving around as other people walk towards you. We will all be bringing our own food and drink to keep the contact as limited as possible and the garden we are using is plenty big enough.


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## DanFST (May 29, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			We are meeting up with friends (6 of us) on Sunday afternoon for a few drinks in the sunshine. Really looking forward to the more relaxed social interaction rather than the awkward meeting whilst on a walk and constantly moving around as other people walk towards you. We will all be bringing our own food and drink to keep the contact as limited as possible and the garden we are using is plenty big enough.
		
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YOU SHOULD NOT BE DOING THAT, NOT UNTIL 00:01 ON MONDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Enjoy! I think the food and drink is a good idea, It's what i'll be doing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			We are meeting up with friends (6 of us) on Sunday afternoon for a few drinks in the sunshine. Really looking forward to the more relaxed social interaction rather than the awkward meeting whilst on a walk and constantly moving around as other people walk towards you. We will all be bringing our own food and drink to keep the contact as limited as possible and the garden we are using is plenty big enough.
		
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I’ll bite, wouldn’t want people abusing the rules.
You’re not allowed to meet up as group the way you describe until monday.
Why do you think it’s ok for you to do that when the Government have been quite clear with their message.


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## road2ruin (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’ll bite, wouldn’t want people abusing the rules.
You’re not allowed to meet up as group the way you describe until monday.
Why do you think it’s ok for you to do that when the Government have been quite clear with their message.

Click to expand...

I am using my instinct and my instinct says that their garden is massive, the sun is due to shine and bending the rules by 12 hours will not cause any harm.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I am using my instinct and my instinct says that their garden is massive, the sun is due to shine and bending the rules by 12 hours will not cause any harm. 

Click to expand...

Once in location make sure you stay there till the end, we don’t want you making a test journey to see if you can get home safely.


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## road2ruin (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Once in location make sure you stay there till the end, we don’t want you making a test journey to see if you can get home safely.

Click to expand...

Fortunately we are able to wander round so whilst a little drive to a local beauty spot is tempting, it will not be required on this particular occasion!


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## larmen (May 29, 2020)

The thing with gardens instead of parks is that at some point someone is going for a toilet in the house. And suddenly you have corona on your bum.

Put a couple of buckets in your private park ;-)


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I am using my instinct and my instinct says that their garden is massive, the sun is due to shine and bending the rules by 12 hours will not cause any harm. 

Click to expand...

I will put my hands up and say that I am doing exactly the same, meeting with a couple of friends in the garden over the weekend. I am not a rule breaker at all and have been pretty strict on lockdown but why on earth would you announce something like this just before a hot weekend and tell people not to meet until Monday, either make it immediate or announce it after the weekend. It is clear that people are going to apply this relaxation from today


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## Wolf (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I will put my hands up and say that I am doing exactly the same, meeting with a couple of friends in the garden over the weekend. I am not a rule breaker at all and have been pretty strict on lockdown but why on earth would you announce something like this just before a hot weekend and tell people not to meet until Monday, either make it immediate or announce it after the weekend. It is clear that people are going to apply this relaxation from today
		
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This absolutely nails it for me. The announcement should have been made Sunday night if they didn't want this to occur until Monday. 

It'll be happening all over the country from today and nothing they can say or do now to stop it.


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## Beezerk (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I will put my hands up and say that I am doing exactly the same, meeting with a couple of friends in the garden over the weekend. I am not a rule breaker at all and have been pretty strict on lockdown but why on earth would you announce something like this just before a hot weekend and tell people not to meet until Monday, either make it immediate or announce it after the weekend. It is clear that people are going to apply this relaxation from today
		
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Same here, the missus and I pondered over it last night and we've invited another couple to come over to our garden for drinks on Saturday afternoon/evening.
We live in a semi rural area, the fella is who I've been mountain biking with during the lockdown anyway and both our wives have been working from home and have barely gone out.
Common sense says it's ok imo.


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## larmen (May 29, 2020)

Coming Monday the kids will be mingling in the nurseries and pre schools as well as a couple of early years. I assume that if we as parents then mingling in the same group, observing social distancing between the adults, the kids can roam free between them.


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## Slab (May 29, 2020)

Its getting very weary hearing about the social phased returns going on. Day 71 of our lock-down and while I'm allowed in the office today its curfew conditions here again this weekend (hopefully the last weekend like this)

From first active case to virus-free eradication was just 40 days here & it means i'm plenty done with just seeing the inside of my flat


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Same here, the missus and I pondered over it last night and we've invited another couple to come over to our garden for drinks on Saturday afternoon/evening.
We live in a semi rural area, the fella is who I've been mountain biking with during the lockdown anyway and both our wives have been working from home and have barely gone out.
Common sense says it's ok imo.
		
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As it will be for my daughter and her friends tomorrow when she has them at ours for her 25th b/day.   Rather nonsensical telling us to wait until Monday with a lovely weekend beckoning. 

As there will be two couples and a singleton (we'll head out or just stay indoors so she can have the garden), we'll plate up three bowls of such as crisps and nuts; individual bowls of olives and similar - and five portions of anything else my wife wants to put together.  They will bring their own drinks and glasses, and we'll provide plenty of fizzy already poured in disposable glasses.  The garden is well big enough and access to it is by a side gate from the drive.  We'll leave the backdoor and downstairs loo door open with handwash, and my daughter can do a anti-bacterial wipe-round when they are done. 

You know it makes sense.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As it will be for my daughter and her friends tomorrow when she has them at ours for her 25th b/day.   Rather nonsensical telling us to wait until Monday with a *lovely weekend beckoning.*

As there will be two couples and a singleton (we'll head out or just stay indoors so she can have the garden), we'll plate up three bowls of such as crisps and nuts; individual bowls of olives and similar - and five portions of anything else my wife wants to put together.  They will bring their own drinks and glasses, and we'll provide plenty of fizzy already poured in disposable glasses.  The garden is well big enough and access to it is by a side gate from the drive.  We'll leave the backdoor and downstairs loo door open with handwash, and my daughter can do a anti-bacterial wipe-round when they are done.

You know it makes sense.
		
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Re the bit in bold, has the virus got other plans due to the weather?


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Re the bit in bold, has the virus got other plans due to the weather?

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More to the point, what plans has the virus got from Monday onward that means it will be less prevalent than over the next 72 hours


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			More to the point, what plans has the virus got from Monday onward that means it will be less prevalent than over the next 72 hours 

Click to expand...

Its furlough ends.


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## pauljames87 (May 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			This absolutely nails it for me. The announcement should have been made Sunday night if they didn't want this to occur until Monday. 

It'll be happening all over the country from today and nothing they can say or do now to stop it.
		
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And Scotland CAN do this from today 

So say you live in Berwick upon Tweed

Your family live in Scotland 

You could go to their garden 

They can't go to yours 

Just stupid 

Like you say announce Sunday or that's it.

We have parents both booked in for Monday and weds respectfully but I'm sure many more will make most of this lovely weekend weather


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## DRW (May 29, 2020)

Slab said:



			Its getting very weary hearing about the social phased returns going on. Day 71 of our lock-down and while I'm allowed in the office today its curfew conditions here again this weekend (hopefully the last weekend like this)

From first active case to virus-free eradication was just 40 days here & it means i'm plenty done with just seeing the inside of my flat
		
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Do I read that correctly, 31 days without a case and I assume everyone recovered, so no active cases still under curfew ? yeek

Do you know when things will be relaxed ?


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## Slab (May 29, 2020)

DRW said:



			Do I read that correctly, 31 days without a case and I assume everyone recovered, so no active cases still under curfew ? yeek

Do you know when things will be relaxed ?
		
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Yup, the only case in that time was a couple repatriated from India who brought it with them but they were quarentined on arrival anyway, so we've nothing in the general population

The current curfew lasts until this Monday so we're crossing everything we get it lifted (you can never tell round here)


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I will put my hands up and say that I am doing exactly the same, meeting with a couple of friends in the garden over the weekend. I am not a rule breaker at all and have been pretty strict on lockdown but why on earth would you announce something like this just before a hot weekend and tell people not to meet until Monday, either make it immediate or announce it after the weekend. It is clear that people are going to apply this relaxation from today
		
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Because they had a great deal of criticism for not giving people suitably notice last time. Boris did explain he was giving notice so people had time to prepare.


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Because they had a great deal of criticism for not giving people suitably notice last time. Boris did explain he was giving notice so people had time to prepare.
		
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For those of us working he has given us over a week to prepare. The point is that common sense says that people are going to treat the restrictions as lifted as if now especially with a hot weekend


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			For those of us working he has given us over a week to prepare. The point is that common sense says that people are going to treat the restrictions as lifted as if now especially with a hot weekend
		
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Thought they had for most of the week looking at the pictures on social medial and the news channels. Virus. What virus?


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## pauljames87 (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Because they had a great deal of criticism for not giving people suitably notice last time. Boris did explain he was giving notice so people had time to prepare.
		
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Is there no lengths you will go to in defending the puppet? 

He could announce schools etc yesterday. Like he did. That gives them time to prepare (which they have been anyways)

You don't need time to prepare to see your family and friends 

Soon as it's lifted people will go so that could be announced Sunday.


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Thought they had for most of the week looking at the pictures on social medial and the news channels. Virus. What virus?
		
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Maybe round your way but social media is always a bad example and will show the worst. In rural communities we have been pretty observant despite having seemingly far less need to do so. Not a fan of generalisations.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			For those of us working he has given us over a week to prepare. The point is that common sense says that people are going to treat the restrictions as lifted as if now especially with a hot weekend
		
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Doesn't common sense tell people that Monday means Monday. If he announced it Sunday evening people would be complaining about the lack of notice.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Maybe round your way but social media is always a bad example and will show the worst. In rural communities we have been pretty observant despite having seemingly far less need to do so. Not a fan of generalisations.
		
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Reading is a fairly large town as is Bracknell and everything I've seen last weekend and the last few days there has been scant regard towards social distancing and plenty of people seem to already visiting other people at their houses/gardens


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is there no lengths you will go to in defending the puppet?

He could announce schools etc yesterday. Like he did. That gives them time to prepare (which they have been anyways)

You don't need time to prepare to see your family and friends

Soon as it's lifted people will go so that could be announced Sunday.
		
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I critised him strongly for not giving suitable notice last time, maybe you missed that.


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## pauljames87 (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I critised him strongly for not giving suitable notice last time, maybe you missed that.
		
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Why do you need suitable notice to allow people to see their family?


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Why do you need suitable notice to allow people to see their family?
		
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I dont make up rules or their timescales. I guess the government are guided by the medical and scientific experts who have their reasons. Should we pick and choose what rules suit us.


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## pauljames87 (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont make up rules or their timescales. I guess the government are guided by the medical and scientific experts who have their reasons. Should we pick and choose what rules suit us.
		
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That's not answering the question.

We can meet family from Monday.

They could have announced that Sunday night and people wouldn't moan oh we didn't have enough notice 

Going back to school different matter ....

Not hard.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's not answering the question.

We can meet family from Monday.

They could have announced that Sunday night and people wouldn't moan oh we didn't have enough notice

Going back to school different matter ....

Not hard.
		
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I think it answered the question.

OK, we disagree. Best leave it at that as neither of us look like changing our minds.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

Common sense tells me that little, if anything, is going to change in respect of the risk of infection in my back garden between 1pm Saturday and 1am Monday.  And I say that as someone who has adhered rigorously to the rules since 23rd March.

Anyway - Mrs SILH popped into a local Tesco big store earlier today and it was open...and she really hated the experience.  She said to me on her return that so much did she hate the experience whilst in the store - packed as it was and trying to keep socially distanced from everyone - that she became quite distressed - verging on bursting into tears...

We haven't been into a large supermarket for the last 2 months and I suspect that she isn't going to be found in one again for quite some time.  The small local ones will suffice as they have done over the lockdown.


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## DanFST (May 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Common sense tells me that little, if anything, is going to change in respect of the risk of infection in my back garden between 1pm Saturday and 1am Monday.  And I say that as someone who has adhered rigorously to the rules since 23rd March.
		
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If you keep your social distancing and don't share/touch anything it could be a month from now, the risk is no different.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

Something has changed, whether it’s complacencey or the weather or people don’t care.

I went to the shops today for the first time in about 10 days, followed my normal routine, ie face mask etc, went to a fruit & veg shop and 1 small supermarket was out approx 30 minutes, I was the only person the whole time I was out wearing any form of PPE, even the shop assistants had dropped to gloves only.

Not saying for 1 minute I’m correct and everyone else is wrong, but I was a bit shocked, initially, virtually everyone wore a mask and a lot wore gloves, it has dropped off as times gone on, but to see nobody else today was a bit worrying.

Have I missed something? Has advice changed? Has the risk diminished?

Genuinely confused.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

Positive Twitter time:

324 reported fatalities today, down on last Friday.

351 384 626 739 1005 935 1152 - for comparison.

Falling infections & hospitalisations will translate into further declines in fatalities.

It's important to calmly interpret these numbers - the trends are continuing to improve


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## pauljames87 (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Something has changed, whether it’s complacencey or the weather or people don’t care.

I went to the shops today for the first time in about 10 days, followed my normal routine, ie face mask etc, went to a fruit & veg shop and 1 small supermarket was out approx 30 minutes, I was the only person the whole time I was out wearing any form of PPE, even the shop assistants had dropped to gloves only.

Not saying for 1 minute I’m correct and everyone else is wrong, but I was a bit shocked, initially, virtually everyone wore a mask and a lot wore gloves, it has dropped off as times gone on, but to see nobody else today was a bit worrying.

Have I missed something? Has advice changed? Has the risk diminished?

Genuinely confused.
		
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We are poor as a nation for sticking to things .. also it should have been mandatory from weeks ago to weAr a face covering .. like u said before to keep the chance of spreading down 

If everyone wore s face covering in areas where social distancing is harder we could return to a kind of normal quicker 

Public transport would be easier for sure


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2020)

As it happens, despite Monday's change in the rules in respect of gatherings in your garden - when my daughter is round on Saturday pm, Mrs SILH and myself are going to leave the garden to our daughter and her small group (3) of friends - there will be five of them in the garden in total - dropping to four after about an hour.  Simply because we would be more than two households together at once.  So still trying hard to keep as close as possible to the current guidelines - despite what common sense tells us.


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Something has changed, whether it’s complacencey or the weather or people don’t care.

I went to the shops today for the first time in about 10 days, followed my normal routine, ie face mask etc, went to a fruit & veg shop and 1 small supermarket was out approx 30 minutes, I was the only person the whole time I was out wearing any form of PPE, even the shop assistants had dropped to gloves only.

Not saying for 1 minute I’m correct and everyone else is wrong, but I was a bit shocked, initially, virtually everyone wore a mask and a lot wore gloves, it has dropped off as times gone on, but to see nobody else today was a bit worrying.

Have I missed something? Has advice changed? Has the risk diminished?

Genuinely confused.
		
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No need to be confused. I genuinely feel there is a very strong feeling, primarily from the younger part of society 16-30 seem that they are not going to get it and if they do it'll only be a mild form and they'll be fine. However most shop staff around the store do still seem to be masked and gloved although the cashiers behind the plastic screens seem to have gloves only. I assume the premise is the screen will protect the member of staff from a sneeze or cough


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No need to be confused. I genuinely feel there is a very strong feeling, primarily from the younger part of society 16-30 seem that they are not going to get it and if they do it'll only be a mild form and they'll be fine. However most shop staff around the store do still seem to be masked and gloved although the cashiers behind the plastic screens seem to have gloves only. I assume the premise is the screen will protect the member of staff from a sneeze or cough
		
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No screen or added protection for staff, just gloves!


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## HomerJSimpson (May 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No screen or added protection for staff, just gloves!
		
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Seems poor.

On a plus side from my point of view, we are down in numbers to the point our main ICU unit is being returned to a cold zone (non-Covid) patients and all these will be manages in our other section of 12 beds. We only have 4 cases at the moment so some capacity if there is a localised spike. That makes life so much easier in terms of the technicians working in their normal office and servicing equipment and access to their stores. Our ward clerks can man the phones properly and be able to carry out their full range of duties and we can give nurses and doctors non-Covid patients to treat more often and give them a break from full shifts in PPE.


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Reading is a fairly large town as is Bracknell and everything I've seen last weekend and the last few days there has been scant regard towards social distancing and plenty of people seem to already visiting other people at their houses/gardens
		
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With the general figures and the reports you give from your hospital this would suggest that this step will have minimal impact then if already actively in place on your community. Good news.


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Doesn't common sense tell people that Monday means Monday. If he announced it Sunday evening people would be complaining about the lack of notice.
		
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Not sure why I need notice to meet my family and friends. Normally a quick message that I am walking round suffices. Before this they even just knock on the door and come in for a beer.


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## bluewolf (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure why I need notice to meet my family and friends. Normally a quick message that I am walking round suffices. Before this they even just knock on the door and come in for a beer.
		
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I’m literally 15 seconds away from grabbing a bottle of red and heading to my next door neighbours garden for a catch up over some home made bread, home made salsa, olives and Springsteen. I’m not sure what Notice is required.


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## GB72 (May 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’m literally 15 seconds away from grabbing a bottle of red and heading to my next door neighbours garden for a catch up over some home made bread, home made salsa, olives and Springsteen. I’m not sure what Notice is required.
		
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I have a whole 200 yards to walk to mine. Just move the contents of my beer fridge to theirs and I am sorted. Actually, probably take a cooler to avoid fridge door contact


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure why I need notice to meet my family and friends. Normally a quick message that I am walking round suffices. Before this they even just knock on the door and come in for a beer.
		
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You dont need it under normal conditions but it's not normal, did anyone see how many people died again today, I assume the Medical and Scientific advisors know what they're doing and I tend to accept their views without needing to keep questioning them.

We've been seperated all this time and now the Government have decided we can meet up in groups of six outside from Monday, people are now complaining they have to wait a couple more days, so will break the rules.


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## Slab (May 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Something has changed, whether it’s complacencey or the weather or people don’t care.

I went to the shops today for the first time in about 10 days, followed my normal routine, ie face mask etc, went to a fruit & veg shop and 1 small supermarket was out approx 30 minutes, I was the only person the whole time I was out wearing any form of PPE, even the shop assistants had dropped to gloves only.

Not saying for 1 minute I’m correct and everyone else is wrong, but I was a bit shocked, initially, virtually everyone wore a mask and a lot wore gloves, it has dropped off as times gone on, but to see nobody else today was a bit worrying.

Have I missed something? Has advice changed? Has the risk diminished?

Genuinely confused.
		
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I think you're 100% correct to stick with safety measures and I'll be doing the same for the foreseeable future too 
Announced last night that non food Shops can reopen from tomorrow here and wearing masks anywhere in public will remain mandatory 
The way we shop has changed, not just for a few weeks but for several months as a minimum


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## Slab (May 30, 2020)

The PM here announced the partial lifting of our medical curfew with shops and some other social activities approved too 
Overnight I got the first email from a golf club saying they would be open from tomorrow! 

Brilliant news because if one is opening they all will

On top of that news it also means that Tomorrow morning I can step outside the flat with my wife for the first time in 73 days and walk along the street! 
How can something so simple seem like the best news in months!


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## Fish (May 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Something has changed, whether it’s complacencey or the weather or people don’t care.

I went to the shops today for the first time in about 10 days, followed my normal routine, ie face mask etc, went to a fruit & veg shop and 1 small supermarket was out approx 30 minutes, I was the only person the whole time I was out wearing any form of PPE, even the shop assistants had dropped to gloves only.

Not saying for 1 minute I’m correct and everyone else is wrong, but I was a bit shocked, initially, virtually everyone wore a mask and a lot wore gloves, it has dropped off as times gone on, but to see nobody else today was a bit worrying.

Have I missed something? Has advice changed? Has the risk diminished?

Genuinely confused.
		
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The amount of traffic on the roads in and around London suggested to me that so many have the attitude, that, if I haven't caught it by now, I won't!  This transformed into so much traffic, much more than normal on the roads, that there was congestion everywhere!

Motorways were OK though, mainly, so this is all local travel.

For me, essential travel has gone out the window, it's become too subjective, especially with more and more stores of varying trades opening, people who have possibly been isolating or adhering to lockdown guidelines correctly, are now joining the selfish ones who have been out and about since day one.

So it's carnage in the cities and towns, a normal Friday of mayhem in traffic was experienced yesterday, and the amount of accidents being reported on the radio, all over the country, was testament to the amount of increased traffic on the roads.

The people out and about walking playing in parks has greatly increased, but what was very noticeable, was, I'd say 75% of them had little or no protection on whatsoever, whereas before, almost everyone displayed some manner of PPE, the attitude has definitely swung to, it's over, or I won't catch it now!

The conclusion, nobody (well most) won't wait until Monday, or will wait when any announcement is being announced in advance of any restrictions being lifted, the selfish and uneducated attitude will be, what will 24, 48, 72 hours difference make?


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Something has changed, whether it’s complacencey or the weather or people don’t care.

I went to the shops today for the first time in about 10 days, followed my normal routine, ie face mask etc, went to a fruit & veg shop and 1 small supermarket was out approx 30 minutes, I was the only person the whole time I was out wearing any form of PPE, even the shop assistants had dropped to gloves only.

Not saying for 1 minute I’m correct and everyone else is wrong, but I was a bit shocked, initially, virtually everyone wore a mask and a lot wore gloves, it has dropped off as times gone on, but to see nobody else today was a bit worrying.

Have I missed something? Has advice changed? Has the risk diminished?

Genuinely confused.
		
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As of last Thursday, masks are compulsory when out in public here if a distance of 2m social distancing can't be maintained. And, as usual, if you don't do it you will be fined. We do see the odd person not wearing them, but only from afar. As they get close, out comes their mask. We walk with ours in hand until its needed.


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## GB72 (May 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont need it under normal conditions but it's not normal, did anyone see how many people died again today, I assume the Medical and Scientific advisors know what they're doing and I tend to accept their views without needing to keep questioning them.

We've been seperated all this time and now the Government have decided we can meet up in groups of six outside from Monday, people are now complaining they have to wait a couple more days, so will break the rules.
		
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Ok the first paragraph still makes no comment on what preparation is needed to meet family and friends in a garden and I would actually point out that I have actually been very supportive of the rules and in this case am only questioning the timing not the rule itself.

It simply would have made more sense to announce it on Sunday.


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## pauljames87 (May 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			As of last Thursday, masks are compulsory when out in public here if a distance of 2m social distancing can't be maintained. And, as usual, if you don't do it you will be fined. We do see the odd person not wearing them, but only from afar. As they get close, out comes their mask. We walk with ours in hand until its needed.
		
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Would like to see this here

I have plenty of cheap masks work have provided available if I need but also somebody made us a couple of one's out of fabric .. double stitched so can pop a bit of toilet paper in the middle and change that every now and again to provide a sort of filter 

I'm sure people will knock these up on eBay 

Say costs someone £20 for 4 ones like that .. it helps "control" the virus 

Even a 1% chance of lowering the risk is enough for me


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## Slab (May 30, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It's been really tough where you are but sounds like great results. Has it been worth it, do you think? I'm torn between struggling with our limited measures vs wishing they had been tougher.
		
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Yeah with hindsight to get totally clear is obviously worth it but when I've seen the UK ease things over the last week it's been tougher
There's little doubt we haven't seen the last of it, when the airport reopens someone will bring it in (the restricted repatriation flights even brought a couple of cases) it's just a case of being prepared so that it's not allowed to spread 
I do believe one of the key things was the speed and severity of the lockdown. Day after 1st positive test we're shut down for 10 days (Inc food shops) so only workers need to keep order and keep the power on etc were out, everyone else was locked up so the spread was really nailed down from the off. Painful, but it was the right call for us

We could have started this a few weeks back but that's with hindsight again


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Ok the first paragraph still makes no comment on what preparation is needed to meet family and friends in a garden and I would actually point out that I have actually been very supportive of the rules and in this case am only questioning the timing not the rule itself.

It simply would have made more sense to announce it on Sunday.
		
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I'm surprised it being relaxed anyway. Two thousand new Infections every day and the R number still not getting lower.


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## larmen (May 30, 2020)

The girlfriend got a massive cough since Wednesday. Got tested on Thursday 1st thing and got the result back negative last night after 40 hours. That probably had us 55 hours in isolation, so much better than 14 days before tests were available.

And I can keep my tee time for tomorrow. Priorities ;-)


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2020)

Lovely morning yesterday with my daughter and Grandkids in the garden, so tough not to give them all a big hug.
It was so hot I had to improvise a shade sail.
All respecting the new sensible SG guidelines.

Seriously worried for my English friends and family if they reduce the 2m distancing rule.


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## GB72 (May 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm surprised it being relaxed anyway. Two thousand new Infections every day and the R number still not getting lower.
		
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It is a difficult one. Where I am it is very much the right thing to do but in other areas around the country I am not so sure.

Just to add, despite my intentions, I did not break the rules last night, conscious got the better of me and I stayed in the garden with my wife.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lovely morning yesterday with my daughter and Grandkids in the garden, so tough not to give them all a big hug.
It was so hot I had to improvise a shade sail.
All respecting the new sensible SG guidelines.

*Seriously worried for my English friends and family if they reduce the 2m distancing rule.*

Click to expand...

Has there even been any discussion about reducing the 2M social distancing ? Any report I have seen has been talking about it being around for 6 months at least ? 

And just English ?


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## SatchFan (May 30, 2020)

A question was asked by one of the reporters at a recent briefing about the 2m distance rule and why it couldn't be reduced to 1m to help pubs when they reopen. The medical expert replied that by reducing the distance to 1m increased your chance of picking up the virus by 30 times. Cannot verify the accuracy of this as it was my wife who heard it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 30, 2020)

I thought I’d seen something earlier in the year that the W.H.O. had suggested a minimum of 1 metre, but advised 2 metres for safety due to peoples sense of distance.


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## pauljames87 (May 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I thought I’d seen something earlier in the year that the W.H.O. had suggested a minimum of 1 metre, but advised 2 metres for safety due to peoples sense of distance.
		
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WHO recommend 1 metre 

Countries can apply more if they want

Think it's standard that the British public have a poor sense of distance so telling them 2 will mean they are at least 1 metre.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Would like to see this here

I have plenty of cheap masks work have provided available if I need but also somebody made us a couple of one's out of fabric .. double stitched so can pop a bit of toilet paper in the middle and change that every now and again to provide a sort of filter

I'm sure people will knock these up on eBay

Say costs someone £20 for 4 ones like that .. it helps "control" the virus

Even a 1% chance of lowering the risk is enough for me
		
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£20 for 4 masks!?! 

Every 2 weeks the town hall issues us with xx free masks. If you are going out to the extent you need more the govt has fixed the price at no more than €0.99 a mask. The locals have also been making the cloth ones and dropping them off at the town hall. These can be collected whenever you're passing FOC.


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## pauljames87 (May 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			£20 for 4 masks!?! 

Every 2 weeks the town hall issues us with xx free masks. If you are going out to the extent you need more the govt has fixed the price at no more than €0.99 a mask. The locals have also been making the cloth ones and dropping them off at the town hall. These can be collected whenever you're passing FOC.
		
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No I meant the reusable ones.. would be reasonable 

Ofc the gov ones u stated above would be just as good


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			No I meant the reusable ones.. would be reasonable

Ofc the gov ones u stated above would be just as good
		
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Its a tough one. In theory, reusable is cheaper but who has access to a hospital disinfector, e.g. a Little Sister? It depends on how fussy someone wants to be I guess.

I watched the wife doing some disinfection work at the bowls club today, You could drive a coach and horses through what she did.


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## pauljames87 (May 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its a tough one. In theory, reusable is cheaper but who has access to a hospital disinfector, e.g. a Little Sister? It depends on how fussy someone wants to be I guess.

I watched the wife doing some disinfection work at the bowls club today, You could drive a coach and horses through what she did.
		
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Would be good to see more people in masks . I like hearing what others are doing 

I can see one of our busier stations platforms ATM it's roughly a 50/50 split of people in masks people not 

Roughly social distancing

Ironically the 2 closest together both have masks..

Ofc soon as I type train comes in and group of 4 under 30s come in...no social distancing .. no masks


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## GB72 (May 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			WHO recommend 1 metre 

Countries can apply more if they want

Think it's standard that the British public have a poor sense of distance so telling them 2 will mean they are at least 1 metre.
		
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Plus this is, in my mind, another press thing. The WHO mention 1m and so every question is why it is not 1m in the UK. If we changed to 1m the press would be questioning why we are risking lives by reducing the distance


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## Lord Tyrion (May 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			WHO recommend 1 metre 

Countries can apply more if they want

Think it's standard that the British public have a poor sense of distance so telling them 2 will mean they are at least 1 metre.
		
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I have a feeling we are one of only 2 countries in Europe going with 2m not 1m. The other is either Italy or Spain. 

People love to try to dramatise any decision being made to relax lockdown but nothing is being suggested that has not been done elsewhere across Europe ahead of us, done successfully as well.

It is sad that people want to spread fear or score points in all of this.


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## pauljames87 (May 30, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Plus this is, in my mind, another press thing. The WHO mention 1m and so every question is why it is not 1m in the UK. If we changed to 1m the press would be questioning why we are risking lives by reducing the distance
		
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The press love the drama regardless 

Social distancing "killing" the pubs

*Relax it slightly so they can open*

Government risking our health to save the pubs


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## chrisd (May 30, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The WHO mention 1m
		
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The Who also mention "we won't get fooled again" but I reckon we will 😖


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## ColchesterFC (May 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			No I meant the reusable ones.. would be reasonable 

Ofc the gov ones u stated above would be just as good
		
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Mrs Colch is making the reusable fabric ones and selling them for 2 for £5. And we're donating 50% to a local animal rescue centre. Over £150 so far plus gift aid.


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## pauljames87 (May 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Mrs Colch is making the reusable fabric ones and selling them for 2 for £5. And we're donating 50% to a local animal rescue centre. Over £150 so far plus gift aid.
		
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Amazing work! Fair play


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## pendodave (May 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The press love the drama regardless

Social distancing "killing" the pubs

*Relax it slightly so they can open*

Government risking our health to save the pubs
		
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I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as this.
We currently have 8m people furloughed. Plus 1m extra unemployed. 2m distancing will likely condemn many to long term unemployment.
I really don't think there is a good path through this. Only a least bad one for the greatest number of people. For the great majority, that will probably involve less distancing, but that obviously won't be least bad for all.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has there even been any discussion about reducing the 2M social distancing ? Any report I have seen has been talking about it being around for 6 months at least ?

And just English ?
		
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1]
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coro...cale-redundancies/ar-BB14Mtdj?ocid=spartandhp

2] England health issue, not UK.


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## Deleted member 18588 (May 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			1]
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coro...cale-redundancies/ar-BB14Mtdj?ocid=spartandhp

2] England health issue, not UK.
		
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But as we have seen this week, where England leads Scotland follows (a couple of weeks later!)


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			1]
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coro...cale-redundancies/ar-BB14Mtdj?ocid=spartandhp

2] England health issue, not UK.
		
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But there are more than just English in England 

And what’s to say that the other countries in the UK wouldn’t also follow suit IF it was changed ( just like they are doing with everything else )


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## Slab (May 30, 2020)

I'd (guessed) that the UK went with 2m instead of the WHO min 1m because so many in the UK don't use metric to measure (likely the elderly too) so it was just safer to double up to 2m


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But there are more than just English in England

And what’s to say that the other countries in the UK wouldn’t also follow suit IF it was changed ( just like they are doing with everything else )
		
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Yep, aparantly all of Doons relatives and friends live here


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2020)

With 8000 new cases a day in england alone, without adding care homes and hospitals, how can it be safe to begin easing restrictions?

Are we playing with fire here?  


The numbers seem huge.


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## Imurg (May 30, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			With 8000 new cases a day in england alone, without adding care homes and hospitals, how can it be safe to begin easing restrictions?

Are we playing with fire here? 


The numbers seem huge.
		
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Worldometer website has the UK at 1604 cases today....where are you getting 8k from?


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			With 8000 new cases a day in england alone, without adding care homes and hospitals, how can it be safe to begin easing restrictions?

Are we playing with fire here?


The numbers seem huge.
		
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8000 a day ? I don’t tbink it’s been 8000 a day for a month

It’s 2445 for today


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52858392


ONS estimates.    How they do this I dont know.


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Worldometer website has the UK at 1604 cases today....where are you getting 8k from?
		
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The ONS report their being 8K new infections daily.

Cut and paste from ONS Site:
*COVID-19 Infection Survey*
The infection rate for the number of people within England with COVID-19 appears to be stable, according to a pilot study.
An average of 133,000 people in England had the coronavirus (COVID-19) at any given time over the period from 11 May to 24 May 2020.
The change in this compared with our previous estimates for the period 4 May to 17 May is relatively small and indicates that the number of people in England that have COVID-19 is relatively stable.
It is estimated that there was an average of 54,000 new infections per week over the period of the study, which is between 26 April and 24 May, for people living in private-residential households in the community in England. This equates to an incidence rate of 0.10 new cases per 100 people.
The data showed that those who work in patient-facing roles in the health and social care sector were more than four times as likely to test positive for COVID-19; 1.73% as opposed to 0.38%.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2020)

garyinderry said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52858392


ONS estimates.    How they do this I dont know.
		
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I don’t know how they get that figure when the official figures show us only once going over 8000 and that was on 10th April ?


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t know how they get that figure when the official figures show us only once going over 8000 and that was on 10th April ?
		
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Take a look at the ONS report I pasted above.


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## garyinderry (May 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t know how they get that figure when the official figures show us only once going over 8000 and that was on 10th April ?
		
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Government figures are probably people who rock up with symptoms and get tested. 

Nailed on tests. 

Seems the ONS are catching people who aren't even showing symptoms and wouldn't even think about getting tested.  Its these people that are the most dangerous.

They are testing and factoring up.  Obviously cant be taken as gospel but still food for thought.


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## Imurg (May 30, 2020)

Its infections and not positive tests....that's why the numbers are off
Bear in mind that the vast majority of infections are very minor...thankfully


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Its infections and not positive tests....that's why the numbers are off
Bear in mind that the vast majority of infections are very minor...thankfully
		
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But we are talking about daily 'infections' aren't we ?


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## Imurg (May 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But we are talking about daily 'infections' aren't we ?
		
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No idea
That's why I've virtually given up on worrying about the numbers and reports as they're either, wrong, misleading or completely confusing...to be honest it's a bloody mess..


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			No idea
That's why I've virtually given up on worrying about the numbers and reports as they're either, wrong, misleading or completely confusing...to be honest it's a bloody mess..
		
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One could even go as far as to suggest if someone with minor cough a sniffles which used to be called a summer cold will think they have the virus but can't be bothered to get it checked out. 

Every cough and sneezing next winter is going to get people running for extra toilet roll.


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## SaintHacker (May 30, 2020)

Yep. Infection and confirmed cases numbers will be all over the place due to testing figures. Daily deaths are the true figure of how the virus is behaving, and thankfully they are still coming down for now.


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Yep. Infection and confirmed cases numbers will be all over the place due to testing figures. Daily deaths are the true figure of how the virus is behaving, and thankfully they are still coming down for now.
		
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I think you'll find today was the only day, discounting weekend and BH.


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## SaintHacker (May 30, 2020)

No, look at the average graph line. Its coming down.


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## Old Skier (May 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			No, look at the average graph line. Its coming down.
		
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I just take every day as it comes as there is nothing I could do about it other than do as I'm told.

Theres no point in worrying over things I have no control over.

Nothing to fear but fear itself.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2020)

On Thursday, after a tough battle, an ex-colleague and friend lost his battle. Frontline worker till it got him.................. 

How has it affected me? I'm still here, as is all of my family, but this hurt a lot. We've done going into barrier nursing rooms before. Double gloved, and donned and doffed. You go in knowing what's there, just like Covid, but you know if you do the right things you'll be horrendously unlucky to catch owt. You don't go in thinking but what if, you just do it....

But this hurts...... life goes on till its our turn. That's what life is, but this hurts. It just doesn't feel, mmm right, but it flippin' hurts. The reality is his family is the one suffering now, and we'll get on with life tomorrow as we always do... but....


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## HomerJSimpson (May 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			On Thursday, after a tough battle, an ex-colleague and friend lost his battle. Frontline worker till it got him..................

How has it affected me? I'm still here, as is all of my family, but this hurt a lot. We've done going into barrier nursing rooms before. Double gloved, and donned and doffed. You go in knowing what's there, just like Covid, but you know if you do the right things you'll be horrendously unlucky to catch owt. You don't go in thinking but what if, you just do it....

But this hurts...... life goes on till its our turn. That's what life is, but this hurts. It just doesn't feel, mmm right, but it flippin' hurts. The reality is his family is the one suffering now, and we'll get on with life tomorrow as we always do... but....
		
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Feel your pain. Posted on here a while back about a good friend that lost his fight. Really brought it home (although the first UK victim dying in the room adjacent to my office was a wake up call when all this was kicking off). It's tough, and it's fine to have a good cry and it will hurt. There have been others on here that have gone through it too so plenty of support if you want to rant away here. Stay strong


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## Slab (May 31, 2020)

Today it's having quite a positive effect 
First time in 73 days for us to go out for a short walk
Beach still off limits so this is as close as we could get


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## chellie (May 31, 2020)

Slab said:



			Today it's having quite a positive effect
First time in 73 days for us to go out for a short walk
Beach still off limits so this is as close as we could get
View attachment 30938

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Bet you feel so much better getting out for a walk. Looks stunning. Are there some people on the beach in the photo?


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## patricks148 (May 31, 2020)

due to the heat yesterday, my morning excersise nwith Rupert was cut short, so when i cooled yesterday evening i took him out again just though the Ness Islands. i have to tald down a few residential roads to get there and i lost count of the number of houses with groups in the  gardens having get togethers and BBQ's the lock down has been eased to 8 not one i could see had less than that and i didn't see any effort to SD, think the easy of allowing groups to meet is a little short sighted


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Yep. Infection and confirmed cases numbers will be all over the place due to testing figures. Daily deaths are the true figure of how the virus is behaving, and thankfully they are still coming down for now.
		
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Deaths would only be the “true” figure if the vast majority of people who caught Covid died from it, which thankfully isn’t true.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 31, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			No, look at the average graph line. Its coming down.
		
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Kellfire said:



			Deaths would only be the “true” figure if the vast majority of people who caught Covid died from it, which thankfully isn’t true.
		
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Think you need to look at both figures

If a high number of people are still catching it, but the death rates 10-14 days later are still falling, then we are becoming better at treating it and the “risk” becomes slightly less.

It’s only when the new cases drop much lower can we categorically say we are winning


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## Fish (May 31, 2020)




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## Kellfire (May 31, 2020)




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## Slab (May 31, 2020)

chellie said:



			Bet you feel so much better getting out for a walk. Looks stunning. Are there some people on the beach in the photo?
		
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Yeah a couple of people decided to ignore the beach rule on day one 😑
It was therapeutic though, sat on a bench and smoked a pipe then hit the range at the golf club (knackered) then headed south for braai with friends (fillet steak has just gone on)
Simple things that we've missed 😉


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## Wolf (May 31, 2020)

My next door neighbour really is a bellend. She is having a BBQ and there are 9 other people there in her garden with no social distancing. Yet she is standing there preaching lockdown is ending to soon and people shouldn't be coming in to contact with each other at all 🙄


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## Old Skier (May 31, 2020)

We have camper vans in the small lanes staying knowing the police are unlikely to go up there. Hopefully the farmers will sort them.


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## Dan2501 (May 31, 2020)

Shielding measures reduced. I'm free to play golf!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 31, 2020)

We went our usual 3mile across the park and round the fields walk into town this afternoon.  The walk was the quietest it has been since lockdown was established.  Usually quite a number of folks walking and running.  Today one girl and a close friend and her daughter. And that was it.  Where was everyone today?


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## ColchesterFC (May 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We went our usual 3mile across the park and round the fields walk into town this afternoon.  The walk was the quietest it has been since lockdown was established.  Usually quite a number of folks walking and running.  Today one girl and a close friend and her daughter. And that was it.  Where was everyone today?
		
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I think (hope) that's standard for most of the country. Around my way there are the occasional rule breakers but in general the majority are following the guidelines and acting sensibly. Obviously the media are showing the morons and those that are breaking the rules as that makes a better story but in general I believe that the vast majority are still observing the rules.


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## IainP (May 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We went our usual 3mile across the park and round the fields walk into town this afternoon.  The walk was the quietest it has been since lockdown was established.  Usually quite a number of folks walking and running.  Today one girl and a close friend and her daughter. And that was it.  Where was everyone today?
		
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At the coast or queuing for fast food 😉


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2020)

Mentally it feels a bit odd at the moment. Some parts of my life are effectively back to normal, others are as constrained as ever. Things like back in the office in a suit tomorrow but in a high street where most shops are closed. That feeling that you have been told you can go out and do things but then kept everywhere closed that you would want to go to, sat at home thinking I can go out but have nowhere to go. This middle ground is messing with my mind a bit, part of me wants to be totally safe at home, part of me is struggling with the idea of socialising and part of me wants to just get out there and enjoy myself again. Hard to explain, just a bit weird. May look to joining a golf club again just to ease myself in and get some form of focus back to my weekends


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Can easily get rather depressed watching TV and seeing so much that has for as long as there have been moving pictures been normal but now isn't - at least for a year or two.  And so watching Series 1 of Race Across the World I was feeling a bit down seeing so the participants travelling to interesting places until I realised that the whole idea was they could’t use air travel.  And so what they were doing we could do - ok the train travel could be  an issue - but the rest well yes.

And I reflected how our overseas holidaying over the last 30yrs had changed from one two week holiday to maybe three one week holidays - due to cheap air travel.  And were these one week holidays as restful and enjoyable as the single two week one.  I don’t think so but we did it as we could - because we could afford it and it was nice ticking lots of places off our ‘to visit’ list. We could fly out - have 5 days - and fly back.  Done.

So I’m thinking maybe we return to a single two week holiday - slow travel - and enjoy the travelling as much as being there.  Valencia in October.  If we don’t fly, we could take three or four days driving there - have 6 or 7 days days there - and three or four days travelling back. 

Slow travel - I’m thinking I like the idea...and if I chuck work in the next year or so we will have as much time as we need


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We went our usual 3mile across the park and round the fields walk into town this afternoon.  The walk was the quietest it has been since lockdown was established.  Usually quite a number of folks walking and running.  Today one girl and a close friend and her daughter. And that was it.  Where was everyone today?
		
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Durdle Door🙄


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 1, 2020)

1st June...is it just me that seems to think time is flying. 
June calendar dates..
Next three Thursdays internet shopping orders [my Mrs is sooooo organised.]
Birthday of a great nephew.
Cancel Spotify.

Jings, Is it only 3 months ago when you had to struggle to get some space to write stuff on it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Durdle Door🙄
		
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Yes I saw that - what happened when all the sandy sunseekers had to move aside to let the helicopters land...sardines...


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## Reemul (Jun 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Durdle Door🙄
		
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I live near Durdle Door.

It has been bedlam down here in the surrounding Poole area. The sandbanks beaches have been crammed like it's the middle of August in a heatwave. We have a beach hut there and went nowhere near it. Sister in Law was down there for 9am at the weekend and came home, said it was awful. Parks are rammed especially those near the water as well, jetski's and paddle boarders everywhere, dogs running wild. Most people not social distancing either

In all honesty it felt like lockdown was over.


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## Beezerk (Jun 1, 2020)

Two and a bit weeks back at work, social distancing seems to be following what I'm seeing on the TV. A couple of factories last week we're a joke and today was awful, zero sd. Even with my mask and gloves on you would think they would get the message but no, trying to brush past you and coming up really close to talk 🙈


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 1, 2020)

Some very positive news again. We are down to 4 Covid patients and clapped a long term patient out of the unit as they were fit enough to go to a ward. As long as people behave, we can take stock, debrief and then plan for contingency measures (including better access to PPE in the event of a second wave). For now though, it does feel good


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## Billysboots (Jun 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some very positive news again. We are down to 4 Covid patients and clapped a long term patient out of the unit as they were fit enough to go to a ward. As long as people behave, we can take stock, debrief and then plan for contingency measures (including better access to PPE in the event of a second wave). For now though, it does feel good
		
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A couple of frontline doctors in Italy are quoted as saying the virus there is losing potency - those contracting it now are suffering nowhere near the severity of illness as patients two months ago.

I see also that Spain reported deaths in single figures during the last few days, and none in the last 24 hours. So lots of encouraging news starting to emerge.

I have been lucky enough, through a King’s College study, to be invited to take part in both antibody and antigen testing. I’m due to have both tests this week.

I’ll be interested to see the outcome as I had some very minor symptoms early on during lockdown after a work colleague himself reported very severe flu like symptoms.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 1, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			A couple of frontline doctors in Italy are quoted as saying the virus there is losing potency - those contracting it now are suffering nowhere near the severity of illness as patients two months ago.

I see also that Spain reported deaths in single figures during the last few days, and none in the last 24 hours. So lots of encouraging news starting to emerge.

I have been lucky enough, through a King’s College study, to be invited to take part in both antibody and antigen testing. I’m due to have both tests this week.

I’ll be interested to see the outcome as I had some very minor symptoms early on during lockdown after a work colleague himself reported very severe flu like symptoms.
		
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Interesting about the potency. Would it explain why we're not seeing a spike despite the public being out and about over several bank holidays and this weekend. Those that we do have left are long term and have been there 30+ days so it's more the damage the virus has caused to the body.


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## Billysboots (Jun 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Interesting about the potency. Would it explain why we're not seeing a spike despite the public being out and about over several bank holidays and this weekend. Those that we do have left are long term and have been there 30+ days so it's more the damage the virus has caused to the body.
		
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The comments have caused a bit of a stir, and government advisers there seem to hold a contrary view, but both medics say that, whilst there is still transmission, the actual viral load now being detected in new patients is “infinitesimal” in comparison to new cases in early March.

If that is true, then it must be encouraging.


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## USER1999 (Jun 1, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I live near Durdle Door.

It has been bedlam down here in the surrounding Poole area. The sandbanks beaches have been crammed like it's the middle of August in a heatwave. We have a beach hut there and went nowhere near it. Sister in Law was down there for 9am at the weekend and came home, said it was awful. Parks are rammed especially those near the water as well, jetski's and paddle boarders everywhere, dogs running wild. Most people not social distancing either.
		
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Sorry, but I call BS on that. Yep, the beaches were busy, but boy do they absorb people. Two metres. Easy as. Social distancing, easy as. Paddle boarding? Really? Is that the primary course of spreading covid? On paddle boards? Seriously?  Jet ski's? Same? Dogs? 

Get a grip.


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

Had the results of my antibody test, I've had it. A large chunk of my social circle has had it. 

Still social distancing obviously, but enjoying a drink right now!


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## pendodave (Jun 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Had the results of my antibody test, I've had it. A large chunk of my social circle has had it. 

Still social distancing obviously, but enjoying a drink right now!
		
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Is this a surpruse, or did you have an inkling from some mild symtoms? (Apologies if details are somewhere earlier in this thread)


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## DanFST (Jun 1, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Is this a surpruse, or did you have an inkling from some mild symtoms? (Apologies if details are somewhere earlier in this thread)
		
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I'm a fit 28 year old. And if i'm honest I was knocked for 6 for a night or two. I really struggled to breath, but was too "manly" to call an ambulance and assumed it was flu. Even after the quarantine period I still felt like I'd been beaten up for about 2 weeks. It's very hard to explain, The cough was like nothing i'd experienced and had no phlegm at all. 

My girlfriend who lives with me and 4 of my friends had no symptoms at all (despite one being heavily asthmatic and generally allergic to summer)  I was the only one.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 1, 2020)

Been advised that the beach at our local 'beauty spot' has been closed off... No surprise as it's relatively tiny... A couple of hundred yards long tops... And, it's been packed to the gunwales all over the week end... With the loos being shut folk have been going into the adjacent woods to do their business... Should have just left it fenced off as it was during lockdown...


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## SaintHacker (Jun 1, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The comments have caused a bit of a stir, and government advisers there seem to hold a contrary view, but both medics say that, whilst there is still transmission, the actual viral load now being detected in new patients is “infinitesimal” in comparison to new cases in early March.

If that is true, then it must be encouraging.
		
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Something to do with the weather? I know they say warm weather won't kill it off but could it reduce its severity? Normal flu is very much a winter virus , could this be the same?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, but I call BS on that. Yep, the beaches were busy, but boy do they absorb people. Two metres. Easy as. Social distancing, easy as. Paddle boarding? Really? Is that the primary course of spreading covid? On paddle boards? Seriously?  Jet ski's? Same? Dogs?

Get a grip.
		
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You can stick your head in the sand if you like😀 Forgive the pun.
But it is all proveable, it was broadcast on local TV.
The post was highlighting two things. Extreme numbers of people using the beach, even for normal times, and being anti social doing it. 
The locals were claiming the anti social behaviour re the "beach accessories "  They can be used properly with respect for others, they can also be used selfishly. Much of the latter was being reported. There was no claim that the specific use of these were themselves spreading Covid. But it was a fair bet that those who were using them selfishly were not thinking about SD.

And the beaches were so rammed that SD was not happening. That was clear from the footage.

Also, did you see the footage of what happened at Durdle Door?
If you did, how do you call BS?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm a fit 28 year old. And if i'm honest I was knocked for 6 for a night or two. I really struggled to breath, but was too "manly" to call an ambulance and assumed it was flu. Even after the quarantine period I still felt like I'd been beaten up for about 2 weeks. It's very hard to explain, The cough was like nothing i'd experienced and had no phlegm at all.

My girlfriend who lives with me and 4 of my friends had no symptoms at all (despite one being heavily asthmatic and generally allergic to summer)  I was the only one.
		
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That's interesting, certainly not very mild symptoms. Has your girlfriend and friends been tested for antibodies ? If they had it as well as you , then they got off very lightly ( which is a good thing, of course), and if they didn't get it at all, then it may not be as easy to get as we fear.?


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## road2ruin (Jun 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			A couple of frontline doctors in Italy are quoted as saying the virus there is losing potency - those contracting it now are suffering nowhere near the severity of illness as patients two months ago.

I see also that Spain reported deaths in single figures during the last few days, and none in the last 24 hours. So lots of encouraging news starting to emerge.

I have been lucky enough, through a King’s College study, to be invited to take part in both antibody and antigen testing. I’m due to have both tests this week.

I’ll be interested to see the outcome as I had some very minor symptoms early on during lockdown after a work colleague himself reported very severe flu like symptoms.
		
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I read the same thing and it does give hope that this is genuinely happening. The only part of the interview that gave me cause for concern was towards the end:

_He said: "We've got to get back to being a normal country. *Someone has to take responsibility for terrorising the country." *_

Did suddenly sound as though he had his own agenda with the whole thing.


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## DRW (Jun 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm a fit 28 year old. And if i'm honest I was knocked for 6 for a night or two. I really struggled to breath, but was too "manly" to call an ambulance and assumed it was flu. Even after the quarantine period I still felt like I'd been beaten up for about 2 weeks. It's very hard to explain, The cough was like nothing i'd experienced and had no phlegm at all.

My girlfriend who lives with me and 4 of my friends had no symptoms at all (despite one being heavily asthmatic and generally allergic to summer)  I was the only one.
		
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Wish all the 'stories' were such good news stories like yours, a right lottery for the people we we know who have had it or very closely known by people we know.

From two guys dying from it, another in ICU(out of hospital now and recovering), right though to someone who tested positive and never had any symptoms at all.

A complete lottery.

Always good to hear the better/good news stories like yours and BrianM, cheers.


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## DanFST (Jun 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's interesting, certainly not very mild symptoms. Has your girlfriend and friends been tested for antibodies ? If they had it as well as you , then they got off very lightly ( which is a good thing, of course), and if they didn't get it at all, then it may not be as easy to get as we fear.?
		
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She hasn't yet. Tho her desk mate was hospitalised a few days before I started showing symptoms, so we're guessing she actually gave it to me! The night I really struggled she helped me and then after quarantined with me in the whole flat, so you would assume she definitely had it by that point even if she wasn't the first of us. Will post up when she's able to get a test, but I think it will be a while.



DRW said:



			A complete lottery.
		
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It really is, there has to be something we haven't worked out yet. I can't believe the heavily asthmatic buddy of mine had no idea he'd had it, he was pushed to work the ICU and was bricking it.


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## Reemul (Jun 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, but I call BS on that. Yep, the beaches were busy, but boy do they absorb people. Two metres. Easy as. Social distancing, easy as. Paddle boarding? Really? Is that the primary course of spreading covid? On paddle boards? Seriously?  Jet ski's? Same? Dogs?

Get a grip.
		
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Lol, that is the problem you think it is BS, well you are absolutely incorrect, wrong and are talking out of a deep black hole. It is all over the press, photos. We are living it down here but no mind it may be fine where you are it certainly is not here.

Sandbanks Beach

Durdle Door

Bournemouth Pier

And on and on it's been this past week, you know the week where you can only meet with 1 person outside your home and you too are a 1 meaning no more than 2 people i suppose young kids can be there too.

I think the pictures speak for themselves


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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Lol, that is the problem you think it is BS, well you are absolutely incorrect, wrong and are talking out of a deep black hole. It is all over the press, photos. We are living it down here but no mind it may be fine where you are it certainly is not here.

Sandbanks Beach

Durdle Door

Bournemouth Pier

And on and on it's been this past week, you know the week where you can only meet with 1 person outside your home and you too are a 1 meaning no more than 2 people i suppose young kids can be there too.

I think the pictures speak for themselves
		
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Murph was down here. I’m the other end nearer Christchurch. It was busier but not manic. In the absence of any guidance, I’m not sure what expectations we should have. People must have been expected, so bins & toilets should be made available.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Lol, that is the problem you think it is BS, well you are absolutely incorrect, wrong and are talking out of a deep black hole. It is all over the press, photos. We are living it down here but no mind it may be fine where you are it certainly is not here.

Sandbanks Beach

Durdle Door

Bournemouth Pier

And on and on it's been this past week, you know the week where you can only meet with 1 person outside your home and you too are a 1 meaning no more than 2 people i suppose young kids can be there too.

I think the pictures speak for themselves
		
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Don't worry he's been calling people out about it for ages. I posted on here after seeing both local news and the pictures on news websites, press and social media and was told it was crap.


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## Reemul (Jun 2, 2020)

therod said:



			Murph was down here. I’m the other end nearer Christchurch. It was busier but not manic. In the absence of any guidance, I’m not sure what expectations we should have. People must have been expected, so bins & toilets should be made available.
		
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I had a friend who went to Mudeford Quay at the week and another to the river there and it was really quiet, I went to Pamhill Dairies and there was no one there however certain places are horrendous as I mentioned my Sister In law for whatever reason went to our beach hut and it ws so bad came home again and our beach hut is at Branksome inbetween Shore Road and the pier the furthest point along for anyone and even in high season is relatively quiet hence why we love it the fact it was rammed there early indicates how bad it was


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## DanFST (Jun 2, 2020)

I tripped up to Aldeburgh, normally manic this time of year. Barely a soul. Really eery.


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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I had a friend who went to Mudeford Quay at the week and another to the river there and it was really quiet, I went to Pamhill Dairies and there was no one there however certain places are horrendous as I mentioned my Sister In law for whatever reason went to our beach hut and it ws so bad came home again and our beach hut is at Branksome inbetween Shore Road and the pier the furthest point along for anyone and even in high season is relatively quiet hence why we love it the fact it was rammed there early indicates how bad it was
		
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hengistbury head was getting busy @ 9am on sat morning. I’d never go to the beach in the day anyway but I suspect it was a normal summer Saturday. If you announce an easing of the lockdown prior to the Monday, over the hottest period of the year you’d have to expect it. Seems like the council were unprepared though. 
I’m not sure you can expect individual accountability if the government guidance is so confused


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## Billysboots (Jun 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			She hasn't yet. Tho her desk mate was hospitalised a few days before I started showing symptoms, so we're guessing she actually gave it to me! The night I really struggled she helped me and then after quarantined with me in the whole flat, so you would assume she definitely had it by that point even if she wasn't the first of us. Will post up when she's able to get a test, but I think it will be a while.



It really is, there has to be something we haven't worked out yet. I can't believe the heavily asthmatic buddy of mine had no idea he'd had it, he was pushed to work the ICU and was bricking it.
		
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I can add to the good news stories in a way.

Tests I have had done today confirmed I have almost certainly had coronavirus and any symptoms were so mild that I didn’t even know. I know of another work colleague in the same position.

Bottom line, there are likely as not tens if not hundreds of thousands out there just like me, who have had it and didn’t even know. But the press and media aren’t reporting that, are they, because it doesn’t sell copy.

They continue to focus on the death and misery, which is causing so many, especially the elderly and vulnerable, immeasurable anxiety.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I tripped up to Aldeburgh, normally manic this time of year. Barely a soul. Really eery.
		
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Quiet enough to buy Fish and Chips?? I might go!


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## Reemul (Jun 2, 2020)

therod said:



			hengistbury head was getting busy @ 9am on sat morning. I’d never go to the beach in the day anyway but I suspect it was a normal summer Saturday. If you announce an easing of the lockdown prior to the Monday, over the hottest period of the year you’d have to expect it. Seems like the council were unprepared though.
I’m not sure you can expect individual accountability if the government guidance is so confused
		
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While I agree in principle it's really annoying people can't control themselves and then are quick to complain about any and everything followed by those that deny it happening just because it is not happening to them directly.

As a direct example my wife who is one down from shielding has returned to work as a teacher today. She will be in close contact with around 20 adults and the kids in school. She is wondering how many of those kids or adults have been to those beaches and locations and not really SD'd and how much more at risk is she than if everyone followed the guidelines.

With 3 holes in one of her lungs she is fine unless she actually gets it, then it could kill her like the Pneumonia almost did a while back (10 days in Intensive Care). So she is fine to work but needs everyone to follow the rules to ensure she is safe and instead she see's all of the above and does not feel safe, then she has people denying it is happening and some saying it's fake, not real, won't kill you, live with it t,o add she is a lazy cow because she is a teacher who works 9-3 with 13 weeks paid holiday and does sod all all the time.

Talk about people coming together and clapping on a Thursday, supporting each other in these difficult times when in fact lots of them are hypocritics and think of nothing but of themselves.


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## USER1999 (Jun 2, 2020)

Well, I don't rely on the media, which is handy, as I then don't need to follow their agenda. I have been along the beach, seen people queueing with social distancing for ice creams. The toilets are all closed. 
I have also been up the top at West Cliff, and a few other places. The view of people on the beach is quite different from an elevated perspective, and really does not show what the.media would have you believe.
I also think that some of the people on here have no sense of how close 2m is. Most people are way further away from the nearest person that 2m.

But hey, what would I know. It's much better to comment on pictures in the press.

I can't comment on Durdle door, I was not there.


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## USER1999 (Jun 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't worry he's been calling people out about it for ages. I posted on here after seeing both local news and the pictures on news websites, press and social media and was told it was crap.
		
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Is this the sort of post that if it were the other way around would have you crying to the mods? 

Just asking😁


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## fundy (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I had a friend who went to Mudeford Quay at the week and another to the river there and it was really quiet, I went to Pamhill Dairies and there was no one there however certain places are horrendous as I mentioned my Sister In law for whatever reason went to our beach hut and it ws so bad came home again and our beach hut is at Branksome inbetween Shore Road and the pier the furthest point along for anyone and even in high season is relatively quiet hence why we love it the fact it was rammed there early indicates how bad it was
		
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the Quays a lot busier now that they have reopened the Haven for takeaways!


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## GB72 (Jun 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't worry he's been calling people out about it for ages. I posted on here after seeing both local news and the pictures on news websites, press and social media and was told it was crap.
		
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There is, however, a difference in be


murphthemog said:



			Well, I don't rely on the media, which is handy, as I then don't need to follow their agenda. I have been along the beach, seen people queueing with social distancing for ice creams. The toilets are all closed.
I have also been up the top at West Cliff, and a few other places. The view of people on the beach is quite different from an elevated perspective, and really does not show what the.media would have you believe.
I also think that some of the people on here have no sense of how close 2m is. Most people are way further away from the nearest person that 2m.

But hey, what would I know. It's much better to comment on pictures in the press.

I can't comment on Durdle door, I was not there.
		
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This is it, first hand accounts I am happy to accept. Press and social media being professionally outrages, far less so. Certainly would never take it as gospel truth.


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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			While I agree in principle it's really annoying people can't control themselves and then are quick to complain about any and everything followed by those that deny it happening just because it is not happening to them directly.

As a direct example my wife who is one down from shielding has returned to work as a teacher today. She will be in close contact with around 20 adults and the kids in school. She is wondering how many of those kids or adults have been to those beaches and locations and not really SD'd and how much more at risk is she than if everyone followed the guidelines.

With 3 holes in one of her lungs she is fine unless she actually gets it, then it could kill her like the Pneumonia almost did a while back (10 days in Intensive Care). So she is fine to work but needs everyone to follow the rules to ensure she is safe and instead she see's all of the above and does not feel safe, then she has people denying it is happening and some saying it's fake, not real, won't kill you, live with it t,o add she is a lazy cow because she is a teacher who works 9-3 with 13 weeks paid holiday and does sod all all the time.

Talk about people coming together and clapping on a Thursday, supporting each other in these difficult times when in fact lots of them are hypocritics and think of nothing but of themselves.
		
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I’d hate to be in her position, not sure I’d trust everyone to follow the rules when the rules are ambiguous. Anyone that came to the beach on the weekend broke no rules from what I can see. They were perhaps a little premature, but if you broadcast an easing on the thurs for the following mon, you can guarantee everyone is out at the weekend if it’s nice. hope she’s ok in a school environment, only 6 weeks to the summer holidays 👍👍👍


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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Is this the sort of post that if it were the other way around would have you crying to the mods?

Just asking😁
		
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I’ve saved homie the job....I’m seething ....report!!!!


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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

GB72 said:



			There is, however, a difference in be


This is it, first hand accounts I am happy to accept. Press and social media being professionally outrages, far less so. Certainly would never take it as gospel truth.
		
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‘Beach is more busy than before after lockdown lifted’ doesn’t really sell papers!!


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## Reemul (Jun 2, 2020)

GB72 said:



			There is, however, a difference in be


This is it, first hand accounts I am happy to accept. Press and social media being professionally outrages, far less so. Certainly would never take it as gospel truth.
		
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But we are living it here, I just dont have any pictures of it to show you so linking the media is the only way. The beach front path is barely 2m's on it owns you cannot walk along it and social distance add in thousands of people and there is no social distancing. It would work if peole just sat 2m away from each other but they do nto, they get up , swim, play and do other stuff all meaning you are too close.

Many of the beach goers are meeting with other families in large groups, they are everywhere yet at the weekend this was not allowed and even now it's a maximum of 6 people per group yet there are massive groups.

The weekend before we went to Upton Country Park and counted 5 seperate groups with at least 2 groups per group and more than 6 people in them. Many people are not following any sort of social distancing rule. Some are but there are plenty who are not.


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## Reemul (Jun 2, 2020)

therod said:



			‘Beach is more busy than before after lockdown lifted’ doesn’t really sell papers!!
		
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I have lived here for 40 years, the area and beaches are rammed like an August Bank Holiday, the car parks were full by 9am and all the local signs were saying no parking left. This means the beaches are overflowing not socially distancing and all nice and rosy.

It also doesn't make it nice news for those who wish to just lift lockdown and say everyone is following the rules and it's all great. Round here it is not and I for one cannot wait for the weather to turn again for a while


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 2, 2020)

therod said:



			hengistbury head was getting busy @ 9am on sat morning. I’d never go to the beach in the day anyway but I suspect it was a normal summer Saturday. If you announce an easing of the lockdown prior to the Monday, over the hottest period of the year you’d have to expect it. Seems like the council were unprepared though.
I’m not sure you can expect individual accountability if the government guidance is so confused
		
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No, the guidance is/was *not *confused. You just gave it when you said they announced an easing to begin on Monday. What was confusing about that.?
It boils down to people knowing what is expected of them , but saying, " sod it, *I *want to do it now"
And then doing it.


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## USER1999 (Jun 2, 2020)

Well, it's going to rain tomorrow, so that will put a dampener on it for a while.


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## Reemul (Jun 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Well, it's going to rain tomorrow, so that will put a dampener on it for a while.
		
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Yep, i think we just need a few more weeks or keeping things tight and we may get a decent summer and semblance of normal, just worry certain areas will be really poorly affected by things like this last week.

It would be a shame to spend 10 weeks doing it to bugger it all up at the last minute because i do not believe financially a second lockdown is viable or could be enforced, this is it so lets get it as good as we can (probably too late for that though)

Bournemouth Town Centre Today


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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, the guidance is/was *not *confused. You just gave it when you said they announced an easing to begin on Monday. What was confusing about that.?
It boils down to people knowing what is expected of them , but saying, " sod it, *I *want to do it now"
And then doing it.
		
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You are more than a bit naive if you think that announcing on a thurs, lifting on a mon was ever going to work.
The lockdown & the restrictions have been the wet dream of the pious! This whole thing has. I’m not gonna tell anyone how to live but if I was vulnerable I would manage my risk.
You can’t rely on the ‘public’ to make life choices based on others risk. If it’s that crucial, remove the choice


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## DanFST (Jun 2, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Quiet enough to buy Fish and Chips?? I might go!
		
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0 people queuing at the best one at 12.30. Was a shock!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, the guidance is/was *not *confused. You just gave it when you said they announced an easing to begin on Monday. What was confusing about that.?
It boils down to people knowing what is expected of them , but saying, " sod it, *I *want to do it now"
And then doing it.
		
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The statement wasn’t confusing, the message behind it was though.

What was/is the difference between changing the rules by 24/48/72 hours, did the risk lessen over that period?

If you want compliance you have to get all to buy in to your statement.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			But we are living it here, I just dont have any pictures of it to show you so linking the media is the only way. The beach front path is barely 2m's on it owns you cannot walk along it and social distance add in thousands of people and there is no social distancing. It would work if peole just sat 2m away from each other but they do nto, they get up , swim, play and do other stuff all meaning you are too close.

Many of the beach goers are meeting with other families in large groups, they are everywhere yet at the weekend this was not allowed and even now it's a maximum of 6 people per group yet there are massive groups.

The weekend before we went to Upton Country Park and counted 5 seperate groups with at least 2 groups per group and more than 6 people in them. Many people are not following any sort of social distancing rule. Some are but there are plenty who are not.[/QUOTE
So a different point of view from a different poster that would back up what I've seen on various local news (BBC and ITV so I'd argue different political agendas) and yet few seem to take issue with that point of view. I'm quite capable of making my own mind up based on the information seen rather than be fed a skewed view by the media.
		
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## User20205 (Jun 2, 2020)

What does that even mean? To paraphrase. ‘I’ve made up my own mind by watching a skewed media view’ ....confused!


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## USER1999 (Jun 2, 2020)

Well back to the Bournemouth question. I have no idea how wide the promenade is. Is it 2 metres wide? I have no idea.

But, every half hour, regardless of how busy it is, the council drive a Mitsubishi L200 pick up truck along it. Through the hoards of people walking, cycling, skateboarding, scootering. Amazingly, there are no casualties. None. Now an L200 is 1750 wide, and it's Nissan brothers are wider. 

I would guess the prom is 4m plus, in places 6m or more, in the busy bits, but less so near to Hengistbury, where it is less busy. Nearer 3m out there.

Plenty of room to self distance, as I have been doing, along with most people I have seen.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Yep, i think we just need a few more weeks or keeping things tight and we may get a decent summer and semblance of normal, just worry certain areas will be really poorly affected by things like this last week.

It would be a shame to spend 10 weeks doing it to bugger it all up at the last minute because i do not believe financially a second lockdown is viable or could be enforced, this is it so lets get it as good as we can (probably too late for that though)

Bournemouth Town Centre Today

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I agree with you that a second lockdown wouldn't be as tightly observed. No doubt there were actually all social distancing and it was the camera angles that made it look like they were next to each other. With other protests there has to be a danger of infection spreading and these people will then take it back to their house and place of work (assuming they've returned or were in work - either way they will be a risk in the supermarket etc)


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## Reemul (Jun 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Well back to the Bournemouth question. I have no idea how wide the promenade is. Is it 2 metres wide? I have no idea.

But, every half hour, regardless of how busy it is, the council drive a Mitsubishi L200 pick up truck along it. Through the hoards of people walking, cycling, skateboarding, scootering. Amazingly, there are no casualties. None. Now an L200 is 1750 wide, and it's Nissan brothers are wider.

I would guess the prom is 4m plus, in places 6m or more, in the busy bits, but less so near to Hengistbury, where it is less busy. Nearer 3m out there.

Plenty of room to self distance, as I have been doing, along with most people I have seen.
		
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Again you must be blind, there are beach huts along lots of it at the bottom at the Branksome end, doors open it's even tighter, I have been walking down it for 20 year, where the food stalls are is narrow, all the toilets now have ramps, it's a lot narrower.

Again in places it is wider but in many places it is not, which means when it's rammed in plenty of places there is no room to social distance, add in the L200 going down and you are screwed for space especially in the above locations. I mean you have families walking, trucks going through, people queuing for the toilets and drinks, bike riders and everyone carting their gear along.

It is not about people getting injured or hurt it is about everyone social distancing at 2m's that's everyone not some or a few.

To be honest you are wrong, there is not enough room to social distance down the beach front in lots of places regardless of how you say it is when it is really busy and we are still in lockdown, in normal times who cares it's just a mass bundle. I really do not believe you go down, have visited it and especially when it is as busy as it was last week. If you had you would see it. This conversation is a tad embarassing now and I am bowing out as unless I walk down there next time it's heaving and record it myself I don't think you will ever believe it and probably wouldn't even if I did.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 2, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Again you must be blind, there are beach huts along lots of it at the bottom at the Branksome end, doors open it's even tighter, I have been walking down it for 20 year, where the food stalls are is narrow, all the toilets now have ramps, it's a lot narrower.

Again in places it is wider but in many places it is not, which means when it's rammed in plenty of places there is no room to social distance, add in the L200 going down and you are screwed for space especially in the above locations. I mean you have families walking, trucks going through, people queuing for the toilets and drinks, bike riders and everyone carting their gear along.

It is not about people getting injured or hurt it is about everyone social distancing at 2m's that's everyone not some or a few.

To be honest you are wrong, there is not enough room to social distance down the beach front in lots of places regardless of how you say it is when it is really busy and we are still in lockdown, in normal times who cares it's just a mass bundle. I really do not believe you go down, have visited it and especially when it is as busy as it was last week. If you had you would see it. This conversation is a tad embarassing now and I am bowing out as unless I walk down there next time it's heaving and record it myself I don't think you will ever believe it and probably wouldn't even if I did.
		
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I think you will find that Chris has been down there a lot. My opinionm is that you can get a large number of people in an area like Bournemouth Beach and other popular outdoor spaces - but that the media love their photos that have no perspevtive and are made for a sensationlist headline. The disease does not spread easily in the open air and even in busier parks where i have been, the 2 metre gap is certainly breached in passing, but it is probably safe to a large degree. Far safer than doing any shopping indoors. The criticism on this subject is blown way out of proportion as far as i am concerned. It is good to see people enjoying the outdoors and we need to get back to reality and live with the disease, that is hopefully way past the peak, and get on and create economic activity so we can preserve jobs, sanity and catch up with the hundreds of thousands of people whose health has suffered because of this disease such in areas such as cancer diagnosis and treatments


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 2, 2020)

Has any country had any sort of “second wave” after easing of restrictions?

Why do people keep giving it as some sort of threat ?


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## DanFST (Jun 2, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has any country had any sort of “second wave” after easing of restrictions?

Why do people keep giving it as some sort of threat ?
		
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States in Germany have reimplemented restrictions. Korea also.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 2, 2020)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...stancing-rulebased-outdated-science-may-have/ 

Some more info on distancing as a lot are pushing for the 2m to be reduced to one metre

And as to the threat outdoors:
Prof Dingwall, an advocate of reducing social distancing to one metre, said that too many scientists were basing their calculations for safe distancing on transmission of the disease in the laboratory, failing to take into account real world conditions in which air flow played a huge part in dispersing the virus. He believes there is almost zero risk of catching Covid-19 outdoors and that one metre is sufficient for maintaining a safe social distance.


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## larmen (Jun 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			States in Germany have reimplemented restrictions. Korea also.
		
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And Germany has compulsory mask in all public indoor spaces.


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## Beezerk (Jun 2, 2020)

larmen said:



			And Germany has compulsory mask in all public indoor spaces.
		
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If they tried it here you'd still see dockheads walking around flouting the rules.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 2, 2020)

therod said:



			You are more than a bit naive if you think that announcing on a thurs, lifting on a mon was ever going to work.
The lockdown & the restrictions have been the wet dream of the pious! This whole thing has. I’m not gonna tell anyone how to live but if I was vulnerable I would manage my risk.
You can’t rely on the ‘public’ to make life choices based on others risk. If it’s that crucial, remove the choice
		
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It's not a question of whether I think that the public will adhere to instruction or advice. I happen to think that we now have more than our share of morons who will do what they want whenever they want regardless of the rights or protection of others.
But that doesn't mean that it is confusing for the government to issue advice or a ruling. There has to be timelines and/or boundaries somewhere.
People disregarding that , does not make it *confusing. ( *the word does have a precise meaning)

As to your last paragraph, you are right. What saddens me is that I am old enough to remember a time when most citizens were aware of when things were serious enough , to act responsibly for society rather than just for themselves. 
And if things revert to a bad R rate, we may have to do it your way, unfortunately.


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## DRW (Jun 3, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has any country had any sort of “second wave” after easing of restrictions?

Why do people keep giving it as some sort of threat ?
		
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Iran, if you believe figures published by countries: have a look at the graphs on this link :-

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iran/

Death and daily positives going up again, looks like a very quick 2nd wave and not tiny numbers like South korea/china/Germany and so on. Hard to imagine that the virus will just go away and not return if it is allowed to tbh


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 3, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Has any country had any sort of “second wave” after easing of restrictions?

Why do people keep giving it as some sort of threat ?
		
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Yes, South Korea


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## Billysboots (Jun 3, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			If they tried it here you'd still see dockheads walking around flouting the rules.
		
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In fairness that sort of behaviour is not unique to these shores.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...stancing-rulebased-outdated-science-may-have/

Some more info on distancing as a lot are pushing for the 2m to be reduced to one metre

And as to the threat outdoors:
Prof Dingwall, an advocate of reducing social distancing to one metre, said that too many scientists were basing their calculations for safe distancing on transmission of the disease in the laboratory, failing to take into account real world conditions in which air flow played a huge part in dispersing the virus. He believes there is almost zero risk of catching Covid-19 outdoors and that one metre is sufficient for maintaining a safe social distance.
		
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Yes, well where was Prof Dingwall when the lockdown first started and 2 metres was the yardstick(🙄).
There are now commercial pressures to replace 2 metres with 1 metre.
Publicans want 1 metre( wonder why?): pressure now about hairdressers, dentists and ,soon, I suspect, opticians.

Remember those autumn days when the temperatures meant your breath could be seen as a vapour. Just  think about it. Do you want someone stood immediately behind you breathing all over your head, or looking into your eyes  or mouth close up and you breathing their expelled air.
That's what it's about- breathing the expelled air of someone who has breathed the expelled air of some other person within the last few minutes, who has breathed  the expelled......etc.
You are talking dentists, hairdressers, opticians....
You cannot change the facts about the nature of the job, just because the absence of their services is undesirable. 
It has to be weighed up against what might happen health wise to you , if you do use them.  ( Dentist need may be compelling)
The science doesn't change. Again, the science doesn't change.


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## Imurg (Jun 3, 2020)

Sadly 1 metre isnt going to help me much...as a driving instructor it needs to be gone completely....
Tests are supposed to restart on the 22nd and we cant even go back to work yet - hell, even Theory tests, when you sit in a  office and work on a computer, are suspended until the 8th( minimum)
Talk of us going back for  4th July but I'm struggling to see how.
Nobody seems to know anything and nobody knows when they'll know something.
It's all getting a bit stressful and if I'm feeling stressed by it, I'm normally so laid back I'm horizontal, then times are getting bad.
Think I need a beer...


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## fundy (Jun 3, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Sadly 1 metre isnt going to help me much...as a driving instructor it needs to be gone completely....
Tests are supposed to restart on the 22nd and we cant even go back to work yet - hell, even Theory tests, when you sit in a  office and work on a computer, are suspended until the 8th( minimum)
Talk of us going back for  4th July but I'm struggling to see how.
Nobody seems to know anything and nobody knows when they'll know something.
It's all getting a bit stressful and if I'm feeling stressed by it, I'm normally so laid back I'm horizontal, then times are getting bad.
Think I need a beer...
		
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take the 2nd grant and see where the land lies in August, oh and get the handicap down in the meantime


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## Imurg (Jun 3, 2020)

fundy said:



			take the 2nd grant and see where the land lies in August, oh and get the handicap down in the meantime 

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Need some rain on the course first ....its blooming hard work  at the moment.

It's not just the getting back to work...will people have enough money for lessons? If I need PPE, how much, how often, what cost, how long. 
As it is I won't be able to do as many lessons in a day as the entire driver's side will need scrubbing down before and after every lesson..another extra cost while earnings fall...
Now, where's that beer.....


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## spongebob59 (Jun 3, 2020)

Just seen pictures of the demo in London today, not a lot of SD going on, track and tracers gonna have their work cut out if there is an outbreak.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 3, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268214790125694976


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 3, 2020)

I really don't like these protests in the UK. We've seen it on a number of occasions that while these may have good intentions to support the cause, it also seems to attract the rent-a-mob with an intent to cause damage and act illegally. Add in the distinct lack of social distancing which in the current situation with the R number so close to 1 and the potential should it rise over that mark of more restrictions, perhaps even a second lockdown, then there has to be a very good chance of infection spreading. 

We now have landmarks being defaced and a policeman punched so how can this be seen as a peaceful protest and where is the social responsibility towards containing Covid?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2020)

Is anyone else concerned by the apparent flattening of the declining curve for daily recorded deaths on the 7 day rolling average which now seems to be flattening out quite significantly?




Another concern is that on the day that the report was released confirming that BAME people were at higher risk from the virus we have thousands of people, with many being BAME, congregating for protests with little regard for social distancing. How many of them will have picked up the virus and be taking it back into households with higher risk individuals?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2020)

Putting approximate "best fit" lines through the data highlights the flattening of the curve. Was this to be expected as we progressed through the pandemic or could it be linked to relaxation of the lock down?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Putting approximate "best fit" lines through the data highlights the flattening of the curve. Was this to be expected as we progressed through the pandemic or could it be linked to relaxation of the lock down?

View attachment 31029

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Looking at behaviour on the TV and local area, people seem to have become very relaxed, the Government message almost seems to have disappeared from peoples minds.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Putting approximate "best fit" lines through the data highlights the flattening of the curve. Was this to be expected as we progressed through the pandemic or could it be linked to relaxation of the lock down?

View attachment 31029

Click to expand...

A lot of it seems to be down to the way the numbers are presented to the public and also how or indeed when they are recorded. The was a graph which showed when the actual deaths occured and that gave a steady decline. 

I’m not sure if the deaths from the virus could be attributed towards the easing of restrictions but the level of new cases could be


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Putting approximate "best fit" lines through the data highlights the flattening of the curve. Was this to be expected as we progressed through the pandemic or could it be linked to relaxation of the lock down?

View attachment 31029

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It's very difficult to tell. I guess the trend line for that would be the one showing new infections.  I think deaths are difficult to extrapolate due to the previous risk variables.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 5, 2020)

Incoming


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268899639006199809


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## Slime (Jun 5, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Incoming


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268899639006199809

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"Suggests that it might be" .................................... so, they don't actually know!
That's not news, that's guesswork.


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## Reemul (Jun 5, 2020)

R = 1 in SouthWest

Creeping up


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 5, 2020)

I am pleased to announce that when I left work today, we as an ICU are free of all Covid-19 patients. The last two were discharged to respiratory wards to continue their recovery. The only slight negative to that is a report from our Outreach team that there has been a spike in COvid admissions to short stay and HMU so the respite may be short lived. Hopefully not


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## Backache (Jun 6, 2020)

Slime said:



			"Suggests that it might be" .................................... so, they don't actually know!
That's not news, that's guesswork.
		
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There is no certainty about any single measure of R, it doesn't mean it's guesswork in the sense that it's random, it's just imprecise.
If you're a carpenter and look at a piece of wood and are asked how long it is, you could eyeball it and say it's  about 30 cm, you could take a measure out and say it's about 29 cm.
You could use a precision laser measure and say it's 29.06 cm.
There would be varying degrees of accuracy and only one would resemble a guess , and even that one would generally be a pretty good  approximation if the carpenter was experienced.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 8, 2020)

Some good news. New Zealand has lifted all internal restrictions. No need to wear masks, no need to distance (although they do suggest it is a good idea still), no limits on gatherings etc. The only thing in place still is self isolation for people entering the country.

Where they go, we will follow, eventually


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## spongebob59 (Jun 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Some good news. New Zealand has lifted all internal restrictions. No need to wear masks, no need to distance (although they do suggest it is a good idea still), no limits on gatherings etc. The only thing in place still is self isolation for people entering the country.

Where they go, we will follow, eventually 

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I'd happily go and isolate there, fantastic country 👍


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## Old Skier (Jun 8, 2020)

Reemul said:



R = 1 in SouthWest

Creeping up
		
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Hasn't made any difference, police still fining up to a hundred camper vans this weekend.  There hiding in the back B roads now, the very roads that local walkers and farmers use.  Happy snapping.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

Been for our walk around the Lido... Council have now employed security, with dogs, to keep the beach area clear... Fencing not being sufficient by all accounts... A friend, over the weekend, advised his daughter (in Canada) had called to say footage of the Lido had been used in the news, over there, to show Brits failing to distance...


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## GB72 (Jun 8, 2020)

well with the weather forecast being pretty poor for the next couple of weeks (temps high but rain most days) that may keep a few off the beaches. It will be interesting to see where we are then. As far as I am aware, we have not seen a spike from either of the 2 bank holidays when people were prophesying that it was inevitable and so let us see how we get through the protest weekend.


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## drdel (Jun 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			well with the weather forecast being pretty poor for the next couple of weeks (temps high but rain most days) that may keep a few off the beaches. It will be interesting to see where we are then. As far as I am aware, we have not seen a spike from either of the 2 bank holidays when people were prophesying that it was inevitable and so let us see how we get through the protest weekend.
		
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Two week leadtime.


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## GB72 (Jun 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			Two week leadtime.
		
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Not totally sure but is 2 weeks the maximum period, in other words, if a spike is coming, should we be seeing a rise over a number of days as people take differing amounts of time to start showing symptoms.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not totally sure but is 2 weeks the maximum period, in other words, if a spike is coming, should we be seeing a rise over a number of days as people take differing amounts of time to start showing symptoms.
		
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I read a report that for those affected most seriously from the virus it was on average 23 days between being infected and dying, which would mean looking for a spike in the number of deaths 3 to 4 weeks after whatever event took place. Not sure how each event will relate to recorded infections as it will depend on how many people that were there go for a test if they show symptoms rather than isolating.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not totally sure but is 2 weeks the maximum period, in other words, if a spike is coming, should we be seeing a rise over a number of days as people take differing amounts of time to start showing symptoms.
		
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Yes I thought it was 7 days for symptoms but 14 to make sure your free of it!


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2020)

I read, over the weekend, that smokers are less likely to cop it... And, there's been trials using nicotine patches as treatment...


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## Imurg (Jun 8, 2020)

Ended my car lease today as a direct result of this mess..had to take it back to Leicester and was chauffeured home in Fragger's Limo....
Setting up my own car to use once we get allowed out..just getting some numbers off the bottom line each month...
Now owning a car for the first time since 03..


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## bobmac (Jun 8, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Now owning a car for the first time since 03..
		
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Someone's going to do it


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## road2ruin (Jun 8, 2020)

So we've just collected the mini beast from her first day back at Primary School (Year 1) and the change in her temperament and general demeanour is like night and day. Over the last week or so (I think she's had about 10 weeks of being at home) we've noticed that she's been harder to deal with, sullen and a lot more emotional. 

Today she went in from 9:30-15:20 and she's not stopped talking about her 'bubble' and all the children in her bubble and having lunch at her desk (she had a cheese burger....a cheese roll) and did a lot of playing outside. She's so excited to have gone back and I think it's going to do her (and probably us) the world of good to have some time outside of the house with other people.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Some good news. New Zealand has lifted all internal restrictions. No need to wear masks, no need to distance (although they do suggest it is a good idea still), no limits on gatherings etc. The only thing in place still is self isolation for people entering the country.

Where they go, we will follow, eventually 

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Nice, so when the second wave hits it will rip through there like wildfire as they have zero antibodies


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## AmandaJR (Jun 8, 2020)

Weird day for me. First day back from furlough as office is the busiest we've ever known and workload simply unmanageable. Helped out with admin from home and didn't come up for air apart from the odd loo break! Only made a tiny dent in the outstanding work. Doubling my hours for...who knows how long...all that despite us being part of the group proposal to close as a cost cutting exercise. Really feel for the full time staff who worked on whilst many were furloughed, cancelled annual leave and worked their socks off in the belief they were saving jobs for them and their colleagues


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## Slime (Jun 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Nice, so when the second wave hits it will rip through there like wildfire as they have zero antibodies
		
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What would you have them do?


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## Billysboots (Jun 8, 2020)

Six of our office of ten have now tested positive for antibodies. Only one had any symptoms.

If that is anywhere near replicated in the big, wide world, we may be well on the way to herd immunity without trying.


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## GB72 (Jun 8, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Weird day for me. First day back from furlough as office is the busiest we've ever known and workload simply unmanageable. Helped out with admin from home and didn't come up for air apart from the odd loo break! Only made a tiny dent in the outstanding work. Doubling my hours for...who knows how long...all that despite us being part of the group proposal to close as a cost cutting exercise. Really feel for the full time staff who worked on whilst many were furloughed, cancelled annual leave and worked their socks off in the belief they were saving jobs for them and their colleagues 

Click to expand...

I know how that feels. Bit awkward for those working on most of whom have not had a break since Xmas whilst others have been at home in 80-100% pay. Don't get me wrong, I am glad I worked for my sanity and because it suggests I am safer if redundancies come later but also in a position where I am now ineligible for furloughs from Wednesday so if people have to go, I may be straight out whilst those on furlough may be kept in until October


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Nice, so when the second wave hits it will rip through there like wildfire as they have zero antibodies
		
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Where is the 2nd wave going to come from?
What was missing from the earlier post is that have had zero cases reported for more than a fortnight!
Still a fortnight isolation/quarantine for Kiwis returning and no foreigners allowed in.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52961539


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## AmandaJR (Jun 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I know how that feels. Bit awkward for those working on most of whom have not had a break since Xmas whilst others have been at home in 80-100% pay. Don't get me wrong, I am glad I worked for my sanity and because it suggests I am safer if redundancies come later but also in a position where I am now ineligible for furloughs from Wednesday so if people have to go, I may be straight out whilst those on furlough may be kept in until October
		
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They're a good team who work hard and professionally and one said "I'm devastated. They've broken me. I feel betrayed" - strong emotions but I fully understand why.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Nice, so when the second wave hits it will rip through there like wildfire as they have zero antibodies
		
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Boohoo, hisssssssss. Don't bring the mood down 😁. It's a good news story.


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Six of our office of ten have now tested positive for antibodies. Only one had any symptoms.

If that is anywhere near replicated in the big, wide world, we may be well on the way to herd immunity without trying.
		
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I posted something similar a few weeks ago. I'd be very surprised if London wasn't almost there already.


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## GB72 (Jun 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I posted something similar a few weeks ago. I'd be very surprised if London wasn't almost there already.
		
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Sort of agree with that. Cannot see the whole of London being so totally complicit with lockdown to cause the drops that they have seen and at the rate it has dropped


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2020)

Sad to report a 100% increase in ICU cases. OK slight over exaggeration and we've gone from 0 on Friday to 1 today. That said, there are far more in cases in some areas like Short Stay and Acute Medical Unit and it seems Reading has a higher infection rate than places like Manchester https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/health/reading-berkshires-coronavirus-epicentre-infection-18360194


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## USER1999 (Jun 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I know how that feels. Bit awkward for those working on most of whom have not had a break since Xmas whilst others have been at home in 80-100% pay. Don't get me wrong, I am glad I worked for my sanity and because it suggests I am safer if redundancies come later but also in a position where I am now ineligible for furloughs from Wednesday so if people have to go, I may be straight out whilst those on furlough may be kept in until October
		
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It doesn't really work like that. If in a similar role, all in that role would have to be considered for redundancy, furlough or not. Making any not furloughed redundant would leave a huge gap for legal action, and I am not sure many companies right now would have the stomach for that.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Six of our office of ten have now tested positive for antibodies. Only one had any symptoms.

If that is anywhere near replicated in the big, wide world, we may be well on the way to herd immunity without trying.
		
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The Oxford University model suggested that 50% of us already had it weeks ago, and anecdotal evidence that I'm aware of suggests that this has been with us a lot longer than when the lockdown started.  We need more testing to verify that and start returning to normality if it is the case.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The Oxford University model suggested that 50% of us already had it weeks ago, and anecdotal evidence that I'm aware of suggests that this has been with us a lot longer than when the lockdown started.  We need more testing to verify that and start returning to normality if it is the case.
		
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Definitely a consensus around work that most of us have had it to one degree or another and certainly several guys who were rough as far back as January and February are wondering if it could have been corona and not the usual winter bugs


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## SaintHacker (Jun 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The Oxford University model suggested that 50% of us already had it weeks ago, and anecdotal evidence that I'm aware of suggests that this has been with us a lot longer than when the lockdown started.  We need more testing to verify that and start returning to normality if it is the case.
		
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I've read a few medical opinions now that suggest its been here a lot longer than we thought, some as far back as last autumn.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The Oxford University model suggested that 50% of us already had it weeks ago, and anecdotal evidence that I'm aware of suggests that this has been with us a lot longer than when the lockdown started.  We need more testing to verify that and start returning to normality if it is the case.
		
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I raised this point somewhere else as both myself and older Colch jnr were ill back in February with a dry cough, fever and sore throat and wondered if we had a minor case of it back then. The, very valid, response I got was that if the virus was here back in Jan/Feb why weren't we seeing the excess deaths back then that we have seen more recently? I have no answer to that.

EDIT - When you look at the excess deaths graph in this article it only starts to shoot up towards the end of March. If it had been here for much longer shouldn't we have seen excess deaths far earlier than that?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-uk-deaths-during-covid-19-outbreak-says-ons


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 8, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I've read a few medical opinions now that suggest its been here a lot longer than we thought, some as far back as last autumn.
		
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Haven't heard as far back as Autumn, but have seen some references to November & have had a family bereavement which fits the symptoms in December.


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## GB72 (Jun 8, 2020)

I certainly think it went through my village around new year. So many people went down with a pretty full set of covid symptoms but if nobody was looking for it, nobody was going to diagnose it. Ended up with varying diagnosis based around respiratory infections etc.


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I've read a few medical opinions now that suggest its been here a lot longer than we thought, some as far back as last autumn.
		
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Hate to sound like a broken record, but is/was it not obvious?

We had 407 flights each month from Wuhan to LHR. The most in Europeby far, if not the west.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 8, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I raised this point somewhere else as both myself and older Colch jnr were ill back in February with a dry cough, fever and sore throat and wondered if we had a minor case of it back then. The, very valid, response I got was that if the virus was here back in Jan/Feb why weren't we seeing the excess deaths back then that we have seen more recently? I have no answer to that.
		
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Were we not seeing the deaths or were we not recording them as Covid 19 related?  Bearing in mind that January & February are the flu season, could a slight raise in figures at that stage, especially given those likely to be victims, not be written off as flu victims?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Were we not seeing the deaths or were we not recording them as Covid 19 related?  Bearing in mind that January & February are the flu season, could a slight raise in figures at that stage, especially given those likely to be victims, not be written off as flu victims?
		
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Edited my post to include an article that shows a graph of excess deaths from the start of the year. Until the middle of March the death rate for the year is actually below average and then increases. I hope to God that it has been here a lot longer than has been reported but the figures don't seem to support that.


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			So many people went down with a pretty full set of covid symptoms but if nobody was looking for it, nobody was going to diagnose it
		
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China didn't report it to the WHO until 31st of December. 

If a full Independent investigation ever happens, some of the findings could be scary.


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## GB72 (Jun 8, 2020)

DanFST said:



			China didn't report it to the WHO until 31st of December. 

If a full Independent investigation ever happens, some of the findings could be scary.
		
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Has it not been confirmed that there was a case in France before that.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Were we not seeing the deaths or were we not recording them as Covid 19 related?  Bearing in mind that January & February are the flu season, could a slight raise in figures at that stage, especially given those likely to be victims, not be written off as flu victims?
		
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We were definitely not looking at Covid for a long time as a cause of death and it was only when the first death on 5th March that was directly related to Covid was there that realisation that perhaps not all other recent deaths were as they seemed. Looking at this, Reading this https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...d-by-time-uk-reported-first-coronavirus-death  there seems a definite indication that it was already prevalent and killing


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## DanFST (Jun 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Has it not been confirmed that there was a case in France before that.
		
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Last time I gave my opinion on the CCP's handling of this, I got told off.


So I'm now just saying the facts from the CCP.  They didn't report it to the WHO until the 31st of December.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 8, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Edited my post to include an article that shows a graph of excess deaths from the start of the year. Until the middle of March the death rate for the year is actually below average and then increases. I hope to God that it has been here a lot longer than has been reported but the figures don't seem to support that.
		
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If it was an extremely mild year for normal flu then the start of the pandemic figures could still be incorrectly masked in the flu figures and be below average.  I understand your concerns about the figures not apparently supporting it, but the more I read the more convinced I am that it has been here longer.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If it was an extremely mild year for normal flu then the start of the pandemic figures could still be incorrectly masked in the flu figures and be below average.  I understand your concerns about the figures not apparently supporting it, but the more I read the more convinced I am that it has been here longer.
		
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I really hope that you are right and that what we are seeing the end of now is the end of the second wave, and that we have far more than previously thought that have already had it and have some form of immunity. Fingers crossed you are correct as that would be a much better outcome than current suggestions.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2020)

Just been catching up on the daily briefing where Matt Hancock wasn't able to give an answer as to when weddings might be able to re-start. If I arrange a wedding and claim that it's not actually a wedding but that my gathering is a protest for black lives matter does that mean that it's OK for us to go ahead?

Also been hearing radio adverts from the Government that say that if I am contacted by a contact tracer because I've been in close contact to someone that has tested positive then I "must isolate for 14 days". Well that seems reasonable, but is this in the same way that if anyone in my household is showing symptoms then "the whole household must isolate for 14 days" unless I'm a government adviser, in which case I can return to work that afternoon for a few hours and then drive 250 miles before I isolate? Even as someone that initially supported the government response to this crisis I find it very hard to follow their rules/guidelines now that they have shown that they are flexible depending on who you are.


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## USER1999 (Jun 8, 2020)

So someone that I don't know has some symptoms that might be covid, has been near me, and I am supposed to self isolate for 14 days? Even if I think I have had it? Even if I haven't had it, I probably still won't get it, and might even be immune to it. I might even have been PPE'd up to the nines when I was supposedly in contact with them. It's not really going to work, is it.


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## Reemul (Jun 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If it was an extremely mild year for normal flu then the start of the pandemic figures could still be incorrectly masked in the flu figures and be below average.  I understand your concerns about the figures not apparently supporting it, but the more I read the more convinced I am that it has been here longer.
		
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I do think it is a bit of wishful thinking, with the death rate lower than normal that is reflective of the lower flu rate. There is no indication of an uprise earlier for any reason, this more than likely an indication it was not over here in great enough numbers.

I too had a rough time both in January and February where I had 3 days off and then another 3 both feeling really rough with a very bad cold, symptoms could be Covid ones.

All of us want it gone, want things back to normal and it is human nature to clutch at straws, fancifulness and look for anything that gives us a ray of hope.

The reality is likely a few may have had it but it certainly wasn't widespread and probably just a week or 2 earlier at most.


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## Imurg (Jun 9, 2020)

Unless it mutated slightly from a reasonably powerful flu type virus into the full blown C19 we have now..


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

One of the many ways Covid-19 has affected my life is, I haven't physically seen my kids since before lockdown even though Cafcass stated government were allowing them between homes. But due their mum being high risk as she was in latter stages of pregnancy  and then subsequently having the wee one and health visitor advise that it wasn't ideal timing for visits between houses, I have been video calling and patiently waited for what feels an eternity to see them and hug them. Well as of today their mum has the all clear medically for her and baby, meaning this Friday normal service is resumed and I can pick up my little ones and have them over for the week. To state I am excited is beyond any words I can find 😁😁😁😁


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			One of the many ways Covid-19 has affected my life is, I haven't physically seen my kids since before lockdown even though Cafcass stayed government were allowing them between homes. But due their mum being high risk as she was in latter stages of pregnancy along and then subsequently having the wee one and health visitor advise that it wasn't ideal timing for visits between houses, I have been video calling and patiently waited for what feels an eternity to see them and hug them. Well as of today their mum has the all clear medically for her and baby, meaning this Friday normal service is resumed and I can pick up my little ones and have them over for the week. To state I am excited is beyond any words I can find 😁😁😁😁
		
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Great news mate, everyone has that one thing that they have been waiting to be allowed to do again more than anything else and it looks like you have just got yours.


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Great news mate, everyone has that one thing that they have been waiting to be allowed to do again more than anything else and it looks like you have just got yours.
		
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Thanks mate, and I owe you thanks as well because of your kindness of giving us the xbox we were able to have full screen video calls and interactive games 👍🏻


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Thanks mate, and I owe you thanks as well because of your kindness of giving us the xbox we were able to have full screen video calls and interactive games 👍🏻
		
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No problem at all. Just good to be able to help someone out a bit during this and hopefully it will allow you to keep in even better contact once this is over.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 9, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I read, over the weekend, that smokers are less likely to cop it... And, there's been trials using nicotine patches as treatment...
		
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Yes, Steve, you are right . I mentioned this in post 173 of " The virus anybody else done the maths"
This was back in April , where French doctors noticed better responses from smokers, and put it down to possibly the nicotine in their bodies was helping fight the virus.
So some of the Drs took to wearing  nicotine patches.😀
Haven't heard any follow up on this, as to whether it has been found that nicotine is beneficial.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			One of the many ways Covid-19 has affected my life is, I haven't physically seen my kids since before lockdown even though Cafcass stated government were allowing them between homes. But due their mum being high risk as she was in latter stages of pregnancy  and then subsequently having the wee one and health visitor advise that it wasn't ideal timing for visits between houses, I have been video calling and patiently waited for what feels an eternity to see them and hug them. Well as of today their mum has the all clear medically for her and baby, meaning this Friday normal service is resumed and I can pick up my little ones and have them over for the week. To state I am excited is beyond any words I can find 😁😁😁😁
		
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That's going to great for you and the kids. Cant wait to hug my family and grandchildren


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, Steve, you are right . I mentioned this in post 173 of " The virus anybody else done the maths"
This was back in April , where French doctors noticed better responses from smokers, and put it down to possibly the nicotine in their bodies was helping fight the virus.
So some of the Drs took to wearing  nicotine patches.😀
Haven't heard any follow up on this, as to whether it has been found that nicotine is beneficial.
		
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Don't know whether or not nicotine is the active ingredient but its worth considering some of the other by-products of smoking. One of the gases from smoking is nitric oxide. In high PPM its lethal. Nitric oxide creates nitric acid when it interacts with moisture in the lungs. Nitric oxide ventilation has been around for 30-ish years. Bizarrely the acid helps with O2 uptake. Its always been a last chance option, and its rare to see it in most hospitals as there are issues with dealing with the spent gases.


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## Wolf (Jun 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's going to great for you and the kids. Cant wait to hug my family and grandchildren
		
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Literally won't be letting them go from my embrace for quite a long while.. 
Hopefully you get to do same with your family soon.


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## Backache (Jun 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Don't know whether or not nicotine is the active ingredient but its worth considering some of the other by-products of smoking. One of the gases from smoking is nitric oxide. In high PPM its lethal. Nitric oxide creates nitric acid when it interacts with moisture in the lungs. Nitric oxide ventilation has been around for 30-ish years. Bizarrely the acid helps with O2 uptake. Its always been a last chance option, and its rare to see it in most hospitals as there are issues with dealing with the spent gases.
		
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I think the suggestion is that nicotine may inhibit the uptake of the virus into cells. Though it is highly speculative and some studies have disagreed with the French one. Nitric oxide is a pulmonary vasodilator so can increase the blood flow through the lung , it has been used in some centres during the covid outbreak but smoking is unlikely to have any effect on it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 9, 2020)

Still holding steady at one suspected case although the numbers of the normal ICU type cases have risen sharply which in a perverse sort of way has been a relief and almost a diversion for the nursing staff to get back to that type of nursing and with the exception of surgical masks (now deemed mandatory for all staff as it's proving hard to SD in a lot of areas) without the need of PPE


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



			So not literally life and death then.
I would have thought putting lots of vulnerable people together in one room would be the last thing you'd want to do, especially when the experts advice is to self isolate.
		
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Above was from 18th March.  We stopped the 'get-togethers' I was trying to keep going back then very shortly after 18th March.

Now as the days, weeks and months pass - the importance of us getting to some new form of normality as soon as possible remains so very important for me, and why I am so willing the government to get things right and keep us all on board and trusting in them.

Why?  Well - one of my 'get-together' number - J - a really nice lad in his early 30s - committed suicide on Saturday.  I know of some of the pressures he was under - but another friend spoke to him last week and he was really struggling with life in lockdown and isolation.  He desperately missed his wee lad (he was separated from his wife), and our 'get-togethers' had kept him connected, stable, sane and able to cope with life  

The 'Bubbling' that the PM is talking about today would have helped.  But too late for J. But perhaps just-in-time for others.  So I must thank Johnson for 'bubbling' if it is a step towards being able to meet with such as J on more than a 1:1 basis.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 10, 2020)

Cinemas possibly due to re-open from 31st July?  Odeon have emailed me to tell me that my membership reactivates from that date...


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## BrianM (Jun 10, 2020)

Well it looks like we can open the holiday cottage for guests on the 25th of July, the cleaning requirements are off the scale....


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 10, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well it looks like we can open the holiday cottage for guests on the 25th of July,* the cleaning requirements are off the scale*....
		
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For my next job it looks like I'll be staying in an airBnB as we're only doing 12 hour ops and then on shore in the evenings. As part of them being allowed to rent out their accommodation they have to give it a deep clean and then no one is allowed into the property for 72 hours before I arrive. Also have to have contactless handover of the key (or lockbox with code).


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## Imurg (Jun 10, 2020)

All sorts of industries getting notice of when they're likely to be opening again....
And us driving instructors have had 4/5ths of bugger all.........12 days until tests are supposed to restart and nobody's been in a car for 3 months.....


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## BrianM (Jun 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			For my next job it looks like I'll be staying in an airBnB as we're only doing 12 hour ops and then on shore in the evenings. As part of them being allowed to rent out their accommodation they have to give it a deep clean and then no one is allowed into the property for 72 hours before I arrive. Also have to have contactless handover of the key (or lockbox with code).
		
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It’s not going to be easy but we’ve made no money in 3.5 months now.....


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## drdel (Jun 10, 2020)

While impatience is entirely understandable the unfortunate facts are that research and modelling pandemic virus infections tend to show that infections rates go in waves and rise in autumn and winter. Since people stay inside longer, withing relatively high humidity central heated homes. Best keep our fingers crossed and not rush to crowded indoor places otherwise there may not be many opportunities for being merry on 25th Dec..


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## road2ruin (Jun 11, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Well it looks like we can open the holiday cottage for guests on the 25th of July, the cleaning requirements are off the scale....
		
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Brian, out of interest is that official government advice? Reason I ask is that we’ve got a UK trip booked for the 27th July and this would be welcome news for us!


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2020)

Phone call from work yesterday saying I'm back in on the 1st. I don't mind admitting last night was probably the first night I've slept right through since the furlough began. My thoughts are definitely with anyone who hasn't been as lucky as me


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## BrianM (Jun 11, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Brian, out of interest is that official government advice? Reason I ask is that we’ve got a UK trip booked for the 27th July and this would be welcome news for us!
		
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I’m not 100% sure, I’d imagine it is, I’ll ask the wife as she deals with everything to do with the holiday cottage and let you know 👍🏻


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 11, 2020)

BrianM said:



			I’m not 100% sure, I’d imagine it is, I’ll ask the wife as she deals with everything to do with the holiday cottage and let you know 👍🏻
		
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We are due to stay in Fort William in August.
Cottage owner originally cancelled all bookings but was back in touch last night to say he is prepared to reopen from the date you quote if guests still want to stay.

As you say cleaning is the issue, so he is proposing shorter stays to allow for a thorough cleaning of property.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2020)

Lady Doon a bit more chirpy today as she learns that blood group O folks have a 20% less chance of catching Covid.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2020)

saving_par said:



			We are due to stay in Fort William in August.
Cottage owner originally cancelled all bookings but was back in touch last night to say he is prepared to reopen from the date you quote if guests still want to stay.

As you say cleaning is the issue, so he is proposing shorter stays to allow for a thorough cleaning of property.
		
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I would ca canny with that and wait for an official announcement
At the moment tourists from south of the Scottish border may only travel 5 miles...….Gretna and Berwick will be busy then.


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## BrianM (Jun 11, 2020)

saving_par said:



			We are due to stay in Fort William in August.
Cottage owner originally cancelled all bookings but was back in touch last night to say he is prepared to reopen from the date you quote if guests still want to stay.

As you say cleaning is the issue, so he is proposing shorter stays to allow for a thorough cleaning of property.
		
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This is our thoughts as well, we’ve just ordered a steamer.
All cushions to be removed, all books removed, DVD’s removed, leaflets removed and the list goes on....
We normally gave ourselves 5 hours to do a turnaround but we will need longer than that now.
We are scanning all documents / instructions into PDF and sending them with welcome email.


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## IanM (Jun 11, 2020)

It is 3 months to the day that I was last in my Southampton Office!

I have a £20 note in my wallet from what week still unspent.... cards rule and no cash used since.

Filled up with fuel only once on 3 months!


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## Mudball (Jun 11, 2020)

I dont know where i sit on the impact... So good work by Govt on furlong pay...   but hearing more about redundancies now.    From where i sit, i think Companies thought this would be over quickly and worked on the cash, but now it is catching up that new world not going to be the same for the rest of the year.  So more redundancies coming up.    it may further fall off the cliff if there is the second peak.   God help us


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Phone call from work yesterday saying I'm back in on the 1st. I don't mind admitting last night was probably the first night I've slept right through since the furlough began. My thoughts are definitely with anyone who hasn't been as lucky as me
		
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better make the most of that new membership the next 3 weeks!!!!!


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## Bigfoot (Jun 11, 2020)

I have filled up my car with fuel for the first time since early March today.


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## road2ruin (Jun 11, 2020)

*r*


Mudball said:



			I dont know where i sit on the impact... So good work by Govt on furlong pay...   but hearing more about redundancies now.    From where i sit, i think Companies thought this would be over quickly and worked on the cash, but now it is catching up that new world not going to be the same for the rest of the year.  So more redundancies coming up.    it may further fall off the cliff if there is the second peak.   God help us
		
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I’m not sure furlough was ever going to stop redundancies entirely, it was just to prevent the double whammy of lockdown plus being out of work. Hopefully the numbers that lose their jobs will be less however I can see many people losing jobs in the next 3 months and there will be plenty of companies that never open again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2020)

My lad on the phone to his mum this afternoon - in tears reflecting on how, just as he had got all his debts and problems sorted and under control - and with a really exciting 2020 ahead - it's all just completely crashed around his ears and he has no idea when his work will ever get up and going again...and of course my wife in tears listening to him.

He was reflecting on how it has come to pass that in a period of 3months, from the future looking bright and exciting with the promise of a decent solid income - to about £55 a week left after rent, power and water paid - to run a car and buy food, drink and everything else - and having to look to go to his local foodbank...

Anyway - to help him keep going we have decided to help him in his attempt to get going on the on-line music production front - paying for him to get his music productions published and promoted on various on-line music and download sites (inc Youtube and Spotify...).  Meanwhile he can look into 'what next' as it looks like his 'dream job' is kaput - at least for a good while.

And he will be far from alone.  It really is very difficult and desperately crushing and upsetting for us all - as it will be for very many others out there.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 11, 2020)

Bigfoot said:



			I have filled up my car with fuel for the first time since early March today.
		
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I did on Tuesday and was gutted to miss out on it being 0.99p a litre - cost me £1.01 :-(


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I did on Tuesday and was gutted to miss out on it being 0.99p a litre - cost me £1.01 :-(
		
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still £1.20 a litre here


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## Imurg (Jun 11, 2020)

I filled up yesterday...first time since Paddy's day...didn't think to look how much, just stuck 40 quids worth in...


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My lad on the phone to his mum this afternoon - in tears reflecting on how, just as he had got all his debts and problems sorted and under control - and with a really exciting 2020 ahead - it's all just completely crashed around his ears and he has no idea when his work will ever get up and going again...and of course my wife in tears listening to him.

He was reflecting on how it has come to pass that in a period of 3months, from the future looking bright and exciting with the promise of a decent solid income - to about £55 a week left after rent, power and water paid - to run a car and buy food, drink and everything else - and having to look to go to his local foodbank...

Anyway - to help him keep going we have decided to help him in his attempt to get going on the on-line music production front - paying for him to get his music productions published and promoted on various on-line music and download sites (inc Youtube and Spotify...).  Meanwhile he can look into 'what next' as it looks like his 'dream job' is kaput - at least for a good while.

And he will be far from alone.  It really is very difficult and desperately crushing and upsetting for us all - as it will be for very many others out there.
		
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Sometimes (and many times as a consultant) I have had to tell businesses that the 'first loss is the best loss' and the things they plan for the future will soak cash and may not improve. Do your research or you will end up throwing good cash after bad because having sunk one bunch of money it would be hard to stop and easier just to add a bit, then add a bit more until you wake up one moring and you're broke.

You and your son might want to take a hard look at the business/industry he is in. Your investment might be better spent on training him in another area. When things improve and after he's saved a bight of cash then he can get back to his musical ambitions. (there are training for machine operators, fork lift drivers, truck drivers as well as diggers and construction kit - they may not be at the top end of the pay scale but often they can provide a reasonable wage much higher than the £27k average and the courses are not that long/expensive). The music and entertainment business is full of kids from those already in the industry prepared to work for nothing and supported by relatively wealthy parents with connections.


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## USER1999 (Jun 11, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I filled up yesterday...first time since Paddy's day...didn't think to look how much, just stuck 40 quids worth in...
		
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I guess £40 might get me home from the petrol station.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 11, 2020)

Got rid of our one and only Covid patient to a ward so ICU is Covid free again.


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## huds1475 (Jun 11, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Me too
		
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Usually spend north of 300/month on fuel.

Have spent less than 30/month since lockdown.

Commuting unlikely to restart until Jan/Feb next year earliest


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## harpo_72 (Jun 12, 2020)

Massive discussions about bubbles with grand parents demanding they have a bubble despite being relatively socially distantly active. The real victims are the children, my son is an only child. He hasn’t had other children to play with for 3 months .. where as adults have been able to socialise by talking to one another at a distance, which is not what children do. So yeah I am annoyed with the grandmother who doesn’t interact with him on any level is demanding her right to have a bubble without thinking beyond herself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Sometimes (and many times as a consultant) I have had to tell businesses that the 'first loss is the best loss' and the things they plan for the future will soak cash and may not improve. Do your research or you will end up throwing good cash after bad because having sunk one bunch of money it would be hard to stop and easier just to add a bit, then add a bit more until you wake up one moring and you're broke.

You and your son might want to take a hard look at the business/industry he is in. Your investment might be better spent on training him in another area. When things improve and after he's saved a bight of cash then he can get back to his musical ambitions. (there are training for machine operators, fork lift drivers, truck drivers as well as diggers and construction kit - they may not be at the top end of the pay scale but often they can provide a reasonable wage much higher than the £27k average and the courses are not that long/expensive). The music and entertainment business is full of kids from those already in the industry prepared to work for nothing and supported by relatively wealthy parents with connections.
		
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It's good advice.  And we have been talking with him for some years - not just now - about the nature of the business he is in and what next...

He knows this.  But of course when you are actually doing your dream job - not just any job, or a job you enjoy, or a job you are good at - but your actual _dream _job - the one that career advisors and life consultants tell you to imagine - it is going to very hard for him to change his focus - but he is - looking at teaching.

So just in the context of the schools opening it strikes me that there is great opportunity (need?) for the government to very quickly train up such as my son ( a 2:1 Journalism graduate) to a level that would enable him to be a support teacher (he would do such as Media and Comms Studies or English)

He could easily be employed to help a teacher out when a class is split; the teacher is with half the class; and the other half is doing class work - at school or maybe at home through video conferencing  - with such as my lad providing the support to the teacher - working with the students; helping them understand what they are being asked; explaining things; helping them structure their research and thinking.  And so at the same time as helping get students back into schools - he gets a feel of what teaching is all about and whether it would be for him.  And he would earn some money.

He is keen on this sort of thing.  Just needs the government to step up and get going with it for September.  Meanwhile we decided to let him have a toss of the music production and download dice...if his Club DJ work comes back this will stand him in good stead.

But all said - your words are of course so true...


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## Slab (Jun 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's good advice.  And we have been talking with him for some years - not just now - about the nature of the business he is in and what next...

He knows this.  But of course when you are actually doing your dream job - not just any job, or a job you enjoy, or a job you are good at - but your actual _dream _job - the one that career advisors and life consultants tell you to imagine - it is going to very hard for him to change his focus - but he is - looking at teaching.

So just in the context of the schools opening it strikes me that there is great opportunity (need?) for the government to very quickly train up such as my son ( a 2:1 Journalism graduate) to a level that would enable him to be a support teacher (he would do such as Media and Comms Studies or English)

He could easily be employed to help a teacher out when a class is split; the teacher is with half the class; and the other half is doing class work - at school or maybe at home through video conferencing  - with such as my lad providing the support to the teacher - working with the students; helping them understand what they are being asked; explaining things; helping them structure their research and thinking.  And so at the same time as helping get students back into schools - he gets a feel of what teaching is all about and whether it would be for him.  And he would earn some money.

He is keen on this sort of thing.  Just needs the government to step up and get going with it for September.  Meanwhile we decided to let him have a toss of the music production and download dice...if his Club DJ work comes back this will stand him in good stead.

But all said - your words are of course so true...
		
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Why is it the gov that suddenly needs to jump & do all the work to train your son, now that he's decided he's willing to chance a career change? And how do you feel if by doing this he's taking away someone else's 'dream job' of being a support teacher?



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			from the future looking bright and exciting with the promise of a decent solid income
		
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What form did this "*promise *of a decent solid income" take, and if it was contractual why isn't he still getting that income? (there's little doubt that a _'promise' _of a decent income would be a part of everyone's dream job)

While I wish him the best I doubt that hastily arranged training will be the major obstacle he'll face


*edit to add: *
You twice mention the Gov need to get a wiggle on and train him so that’s clearly the current obstacle. So in preparation and anticipation of him taking training for this lesser job, is he himself ready? :

Has he already contacted the local education authority (or whoever manages the network & registration of support teachers) and completed application forms/expressed an interest in being trained (otherwise how will they know how to invite him along)
Or, if like you, he believes it’s the governments job to train him, has he written to his local MP to get himself registered?
Has he researched the skills and experience needed to be a support teacher and is he actively filling in his own blank spots through computer based distance learning etc
Doubtless his CV has already been amended to highlight the skills that support teacher employers will be looking for (as opposed to skills he has for roles in the music industry)
Basically is he ready to successfully apply and start training to be a support teacher and does anyone outside his parents actually know he’d like to do this training… Oh, is there actually a need or shortage of support teachers in his area or is this ‘opportunity’ simply based on it ‘striking you’ that they might be needed as schools go back?


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's good advice.  And we have been talking with him for some years - not just now - about the nature of the business he is in and what next...

He knows this.  But of course when you are actually doing your dream job - not just any job, or a job you enjoy, or a job you are good at - but your actual _dream _job - the one that career advisors and life consultants tell you to imagine - it is going to very hard for him to change his focus - but he is - looking at teaching.

So just in the context of the schools opening it strikes me that there is great opportunity (need?) for the government to very quickly train up such as my son ( a 2:1 Journalism graduate) to a level that would enable him to be a support teacher (he would do such as Media and Comms Studies or English)

He could easily be employed to help a teacher out when a class is split; the teacher is with half the class; and the other half is doing class work - at school or maybe at home through video conferencing  - with such as my lad providing the support to the teacher - working with the students; helping them understand what they are being asked; explaining things; helping them structure their research and thinking.  And so at the same time as helping get students back into schools - he gets a feel of what teaching is all about and whether it would be for him.  And he would earn some money.

He is keen on this sort of thing.  Just needs the government to step up and get going with it for September.  Meanwhile we decided to let him have a toss of the music production and download dice...if his Club DJ work comes back this will stand him in good stead.

But all said - your words are of course so true...
		
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With respect you are making excuses for him: an adult. Frankly a 2.1 in journalism ain't the bees knees and teacher training is not quick or cheap. He needs an income now. The training I indicated is quick and would allow him to access paid work quick. They may be below his dignity and 'manual' but there are shortages and these jobs have the advantages of casual opportunities as stop gap fillers because the music industry is often feast and famine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2020)

Slab said:



			Why is it the gov that suddenly needs to jump & do all the work to train your son, now that he's decided he's willing to chance a career change? And how do you feel if by doing this he's taking away someone else's 'dream job' of being a support teacher?



What form did this "*promise *of a decent solid income" take, and if it was contractual why isn't he still getting that income? (there's little doubt that a _'promise' _of a decent income would be a part of everyone's dream job)

While I wish him the best I doubt that hastily arranged training will be the major obstacle he'll face


*edit to add: *
You twice mention the Gov need to get a wiggle on and train him so that’s clearly the current obstacle. So in preparation and anticipation of him taking training for this lesser job, is he himself ready? :

Has he already contacted the local education authority (or whoever manages the network & registration of support teachers) and completed application forms/expressed an interest in being trained (otherwise how will they know how to invite him along)
Or, if like you, he believes it’s the governments job to train him, has he written to his local MP to get himself registered?
Has he researched the skills and experience needed to be a support teacher and is he actively filling in his own blank spots through computer based distance learning etc
Doubtless his CV has already been amended to highlight the skills that support teacher employers will be looking for (as opposed to skills he has for roles in the music industry)
Basically is he ready to successfully apply and start training to be a support teacher and does anyone outside his parents actually know he’d like to do this training… Oh, is there actually a need or shortage of support teachers in his area or is this ‘opportunity’ simply based on it ‘striking you’ that they might be needed as schools go back?
		
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I simply made the point that in the context of the pandemic and the short time afterwards, there seems to be an opportunity to help many individuals whose jobs have or may well have gone to help them to get into new work.  So the government have created 22,000 new jobs as Contact Tracers.  Not previously required - a completely new role. 

I suggested that one way that could be done, and for which the government would appear to have an urgent need, would be to employ many new 'support teachers' so that schools can double up their teaching resource for a class so that the class could be split as students return in September.  These would not be teachers as such, so not taking a teaching job,  and would have to be new positions as the need is coronavirus driven - and so also hopefully they would be short term.  

If you think it's a rubbish idea then fair enough.  It's simply an idea - and it would be something that many unemployed (graduate or otherwise) out there could do without having to go through formal teacher training.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			With respect you are making excuses for him: an adult. Frankly a 2.1 in journalism ain't the bees knees and teacher training is not quick or cheap. He needs an income now. The training I indicated is quick and would allow him to access paid work quick. They may be below his dignity and 'manual' but there are shortages and these jobs have the advantages of casual opportunities as stop gap fillers because the music industry is often feast and famine.
		
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I am NOT suggesting something that requires formal teacher training.  Simply thinking short term positions to enable secondary schools to reopen and then to support the teachers for however long it is that class sizes have to be halved.  There are many out there who will be unemployed who would be very qualified, given a bit of training, to provide support to teachers in some capacity.  I appreciate that it might be a non-starter of an idea - but just thinking of one possible way of connecting unemployed with new roles coming about as a result of the pandemic and getting back to a normal.

And not making any excuses for him.  Besides it's not as if there are going to be millions of jobs suddenly appearing for a forecast possible 3m unemployed.
But anyway.  Maybe I just won't bother.  Maybe I'll just go and take hope from Grant Shapps  doing the briefing.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Massive discussions about bubbles with grand parents demanding they have a bubble despite being relatively socially distantly active. The real victims are the children, my son is an only child. He hasn’t had other children to play with for 3 months .. where as adults have been able to socialise by talking to one another at a distance, which is not what children do. So yeah I am annoyed with the grandmother who doesn’t interact with him on any level is demanding her right to have a bubble without thinking beyond herself.
		
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Families eh!


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## GB72 (Jun 12, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Massive discussions about bubbles with grand parents demanding they have a bubble despite being relatively socially distantly active. The real victims are the children, my son is an only child. He hasn’t had other children to play with for 3 months .. where as adults have been able to socialise by talking to one another at a distance, which is not what children do. So yeah I am annoyed with the grandmother who doesn’t interact with him on any level is demanding her right to have a bubble without thinking beyond herself.
		
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I was lucky with my mum on this one. We agreed that she was better off with a bubble in her village with someone she can see daily rather than me who she would see once a week at most. I can see her for a cuppa in the garden


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## NWJocko (Jun 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am NOT suggesting something that requires formal teacher training.  Simply thinking short term positions to enable secondary schools to reopen and then to support the teachers for however long it is that class sizes have to be halved.  There are many out there who will be unemployed who would be very qualified, given a bit of training, to provide support to teachers in some capacity.  I appreciate that it might be a non-starter of an idea - but just thinking of one possible way of connecting unemployed with new roles coming about as a result of the pandemic and getting back to a normal.

And not making any excuses for him.  Besides it's not as if there are going to be millions of jobs suddenly appearing for a forecast possible 3m unemployed.
But anyway.  Maybe I just won't bother.  Maybe I'll just go and take hope from Grant Shapps  doing the briefing.
		
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It is a complete non starter for a whole range of reasons, financial and otherwise. You are intelligent enough to understand that.

Do you or your son realise there are bursaries ranging from c. £10k up to £25/6k for teacher training if he’s actually serious about it!?

All this “dream job” nonsense is tiring, I’m sure I’m part of the 99.9999999% of the population that have never had their ”dream job” but do what they can to earn money to support themselves/partners/families.

Its painful reading your continual woe is me tales about your son when he could get off his backside and earn money in a number of different roles.


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## Hobbit (Jun 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's good advice.  And we have been talking with him for some years - not just now - about the nature of the business he is in and what next...

He knows this.  But of course when you are actually doing your dream job - not just any job, or a job you enjoy, or a job you are good at - but your actual _dream _job - the one that career advisors and life consultants tell you to imagine - it is going to very hard for him to change his focus - but he is - looking at teaching.

So just in the context of the schools opening it strikes me that there is great opportunity (need?) for the government to very quickly train up such as my son ( a 2:1 Journalism graduate) to a level that would enable him to be a support teacher (he would do such as Media and Comms Studies or English)

He could easily be employed to help a teacher out when a class is split; the teacher is with half the class; and the other half is doing class work - at school or maybe at home through video conferencing  - with such as my lad providing the support to the teacher - working with the students; helping them understand what they are being asked; explaining things; helping them structure their research and thinking.  And so at the same time as helping get students back into schools - he gets a feel of what teaching is all about and whether it would be for him.  And he would earn some money.

He is keen on this sort of thing.  Just needs the government to step up and get going with it for September.  Meanwhile we decided to let him have a toss of the music production and download dice...if his Club DJ work comes back this will stand him in good stead.

But all said - your words are of course so true...
		
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If the class sizes are halved, at least, there'll be a need for double the amount of classrooms. Can you see there being double the amount of classrooms built/available in the near future? Can you see the govt funding the rent for the extra classrooms, i.e. using empty office blocks or industrial units? It may happen short term but I expect all the children will be back together by the end of the year = no need for classroom support. If it runs a full year, your son will be out of his new classroom support role by July next year. Let's be realistic, with all the extra debt the govt has taken on, and a jobless total expected to push 3,000,000 do you think the education budget is going to be doubled?

He's going to need something that, if it happens, has more than a year's lifespan.


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## Slab (Jun 13, 2020)

After 50 days with no new cases in the general population our beaches will reopen on Monday! 😝


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## chellie (Jun 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply made the point that in the context of the pandemic and the short time afterwards, there seems to be an opportunity to help many individuals whose jobs have or may well have gone to help them to get into new work.  So the government have created 22,000 new jobs as Contact Tracers.  Not previously required - a completely new role.

I suggested that one way that could be done, and for which the government would appear to have an urgent need, would be to employ many new 'support teachers' so that schools can double up their teaching resource for a class so that the class could be split as students return in September.  These would not be teachers as such, so not taking a teaching job,  and would have to be new positions as the need is coronavirus driven - and so also hopefully they would be short term.

If you think it's a rubbish idea then fair enough.  It's simply an idea - and it would be something that many unemployed (graduate or otherwise) out there could do without having to go through formal teacher training.
		
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Contract Tracers are on the whole are call centre operatives working from home. Not medically trained. Pay is £10 an hour for a 38 hour week. Call centre experience was needed.

Teaching - my daughter is one. She decided it was her dream job. She did her degree whilst working full time and also saved up money so that she could then do her PGCE. She didn't get a bursary.

How old is he? Sorry, but you just continually make excuses for him.


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## Wolf (Jun 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am NOT suggesting something that requires formal teacher training.  Simply thinking short term positions to enable secondary schools to reopen and then to support the teachers for however long it is that class sizes have to be halved.  There are many out there who will be unemployed who would be very qualified, given a bit of training, to provide support to teachers in some capacity.  I appreciate that it might be a non-starter of an idea - but just thinking of one possible way of connecting unemployed with new roles coming about as a result of the pandemic and getting back to a normal.

And not making any excuses for him.  Besides it's not as if there are going to be millions of jobs suddenly appearing for a forecast possible 3m unemployed.
But anyway.  Maybe I just won't bother.  Maybe I'll just go and take hope from Grant Shapps  doing the briefing.
		
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Excuse my lengthy reply & please don't think I'm jumping on the band wagon here bashing you or your son. As i think the support you and Mrs SiLH are willing to give him is admirable, and I can understand to a degree what you feel. There is a big BUT though and that seems almost like your having an apologetic attitude to his plight with constant lack of work(income) & by keeping ploughing your hard earned life savings into his what seems a somewhat pipe dream career, you're merely adding to the thought of "oh well if it doesn't work mum & dad will bail me out as usual". It's not helping him take responsibility for his own life, finances or long term future.

We've often heard you blame the government for his financial plight, now we're hearing you believe the government need get their finger out and help retrain in an industry he has no experience and has no short term future let alone long term.  His lack of income through his dream career choice has nothing to do with any government letting him down & keep blaming government for his potential future short term career is equally unhealthy, surely its time as a grown man in his mid 20s its time for him to accept its his own choices to continue working in an industry that offers no security and keeps him running back to you for financial support is actually a poor life choice, that he gave it a go but now its time to change whilst he's young enough to take advantage of a new opportunity. He could continue to do his dream as a side project so he wouldn't need to let that passion go.

My own daughter is 20 and at 18 won a dance scholarship to a very well known national academy which was her dream, but she made an incredibly grown up decision that as much as that's all she had wanted to do she understood that the risk of that career choice and future income was just to unstable. So she got herself a job in Wilkinsons, nothing great as jobs go but 2 years later she earns £11ph & has paid her own way through a 2 year college diploma that's due to finish this month and has a new career lined up that will be something she can achieve a lot of success in.  I use her as an example as its a similar industry to your sons and is something she still does on the side now as a hobby and passion.

As I've said this isn't bashing your son or the support you as a parent give lovingly, but I'd suggest now is time to have a hard conversation, stop blaming or seeking answers from government and if you wish to help him financially, rather than pouring your money into another dream of music production with no guarantees, that money could still be given as support if you wish but instead to perhaps help him retrain in a career that helps him have stability and stand on his on 2 feet forever more.

Whatever choice is made I wish you and him well, I hope you all manage to resolve it and have future success and less troubles 👍🏻


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## Old Skier (Jun 14, 2020)

6,000 attend raves in Manchester.  Who'd have thought


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			6,000 attend raves in Manchester.  Who'd have thought
		
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No doubt Andy Burnham will find some way to blame the Government.


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## Old Skier (Jun 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			No doubt Andy Burnham will find some way to blame the Government.
		
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Always liked the man, shame he gave up on the Labour Party


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Always liked the man, shame he gave up on the Labour Party
		
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Personally I always  felt that for him it was more about Andy Burnham than it was about either the Labour Party or the electorate.


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## huds1475 (Jun 14, 2020)

As mayors go. The bloke is alright 👍


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## Slime (Jun 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			No doubt Andy Burnham will find some way to blame the Government.
		
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And no doubt Piers Morgan will find some way to blame Dominic Cummings!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 15, 2020)

Slime said:



			And no doubt Piers Morgan will find some way to blame Dominic Cummings!
		
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After applauding his son going to an unlawful gathering at the weekend surely that ship has sailed. Then again, it's Morgan so maybe not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2020)

Today I can go to my local supermarket and browse through clothes, magazines and books - pick something up - have a look - and put it back.  Yet if I go into a clothes shop or book shop if I pick up a shirt or book then the shop has to take it from me and quarantine it.

What is the rationale and science behind that difference?

Confused.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Excuse my lengthy reply & please don't think I'm jumping on the band wagon here bashing you or your son. As i think the support you and Mrs SiLH are willing to give him is admirable, and I can understand to a degree what you feel. There is a big BUT though and that seems almost like your having an apologetic attitude to his plight with constant lack of work(income) & by keeping ploughing your hard earned life savings into his what seems a somewhat pipe dream career, you're merely adding to the thought of "oh well if it doesn't work mum & dad will bail me out as usual". It's not helping him take responsibility for his own life, finances or long term future.

We've often heard you blame the government for his financial plight, now we're hearing you believe the government need get their finger out and help retrain in an industry he has no experience and has no short term future let alone long term.  His lack of income through his dream career choice has nothing to do with any government letting him down & keep blaming government for his potential future short term career is equally unhealthy, surely its time as a grown man in his mid 20s its time for him to accept its his own choices to continue working in an industry that offers no security and keeps him running back to you for financial support is actually a poor life choice, that he gave it a go but now its time to change whilst he's young enough to take advantage of a new opportunity. He could continue to do his dream as a side project so he wouldn't need to let that passion go.

My own daughter is 20 and at 18 won a dance scholarship to a very well known national academy which was her dream, but she made an incredibly grown up decision that as much as that's all she had wanted to do she understood that the risk of that career choice and future income was just to unstable. So she got herself a job in Wilkinsons, nothing great as jobs go but 2 years later she earns £11ph & has paid her own way through a 2 year college diploma that's due to finish this month and has a new career lined up that will be something she can achieve a lot of success in.  I use her as an example as its a similar industry to your sons and is something she still does on the side now as a hobby and passion.

As I've said this isn't bashing your son or the support you as a parent give lovingly, but I'd suggest now is time to have a hard conversation, stop blaming or seeking answers from government and if you wish to help him financially, rather than pouring your money into another dream of music production with no guarantees, that money could still be given as support if you wish but instead to perhaps help him retrain in a career that helps him have stability and stand on his on 2 feet forever more.

Whatever choice is made I wish you and him well, I hope you all manage to resolve it and have future success and less troubles 👍🏻
		
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Thanks @Wolf.  My son is continuing seeing what he can do in his dream job line. 

He is not looking for ANYTHING from the government.  In fact it is only since he lost all of his income when venue and clubs closed that he started to claim benefits - benefits that he could have been claiming for YEARS but chose to not do so as he wanted to take responsibility for his own life.  So please do not think for one second that he is sitting whinging about the government not doing anything for him.  He is not.  He is extremely grateful for the support he is getting through UC at the moment, but wants to get off it and back to work as soon as possible

So he - along with maybe 3,000,000 others will start looking for alternatives.  But given that jobs are going and not being created, that 3,000,000 are going to find it tough getting a new job - especially when there will be many newly redundant with relevant experience chasing every job. 

So what is the government going to do?

It might simply choose to do nothing and let market forces run their course.  And if that is what it chooses to do then in the current environment I fear that that will mean a lot of people kicking their heels for a long time.  But that is a choice that the government can make.

Alternatively the government might _choose _to look to see where it can create *new* roles required for managing the country through the crisis.  And by such I mean such as 22,000 Contact Tracers.  And so likewise if schools need additional temporary teaching support to reopen in September then the government _could _if it _chooses _provide schools with additional funding for the new positions; and schools could get on with recruiting that support; getting new recruits cleared for working with children; and trained in the basics of managing a group of students.; what they can do with students and what they can't. 

There are things that the government can do under new job/role creation required and re-skilling training programmes in a time of Covid - they just need to work with those in every sector to identify what is required and get on with it.


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## Wolf (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks @Wolf.  *My son is continuing seeing what he can do in his dream job line.*

He is not looking for ANYTHING from the government.  In fact it is only since he lost all of his income when venue and clubs closed that he started to claim benefits - benefits that he could have been claiming for YEARS but chose to not do so as he wanted to take responsibility for his own life.  So please do not think for one second that he is sitting whinging about the government not doing anything for him.  He is not.  He is extremely grateful for the support he is getting through UC at the moment, but wants to get off it and back to work as soon as possible

So he - along with maybe 3,000,000 others will start looking for alternatives.  But given that jobs are going and not being created, that 3,000,000 are going to find it tough getting a new job - especially when there will be many newly redundant with relevant experience chasing every job.

So what is the government going to do?

It might simply choose to do nothing and let market forces run their course.  And if that is what it chooses to do then in the current environment I fear that that will mean a lot of people kicking their heels for a long time.  But that is a choice that the government can make.

Alternatively the government might _choose _to look to see where it can create *new* roles required for managing the country through the crisis.  And by such I mean such as 22,000 Contact Tracers.  And so likewise if schools need additional temporary teaching support to reopen in September then the government _could _if it _chooses _provide schools with additional funding for the new positions; and schools could get on with recruiting that support; getting new recruits cleared for working with children; and trained in the basics of managing a group of students.; what they can do with students and what they can't.

There are things that the government can do under new job/role creation required and re-skilling training programmes in a time of Covid - they just need to work with those in every sector to identify what is required and get on with it.
		
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I'm sorry if you read that as me saying your son in whingeing, because if you had you've read it through defensive glasses and not taken on board any point I've made. 

Your opening line is indicative of his plight, whilst admirable he wants to continue to follow his it also shows a lack of acceptance on what ultimately is needed in life and thats to pay the bills. Which over the last 2 years alone we've heard you on here bemoaning the fact he continually cannot do so and you've had to often help financially. Regardless of Covid-19 that shows his plight isn't new and that his dream career had been faltering for a long time, but seems there is an apparent lack of acceptance that something else needs doing. 

Then you have continued with your reply that the government needs to do something to create new jobs, the government should retrain people or help in schools.  

Your sons been in this circle for a number of years, his choice to remain in an industry that he has already struggled in to point of parental bail outs and is now actively choosing to continue to do so. Many on here have offered advice snd solutions over the recent years, but nothing is ever heeded, instead its deflected onto others and usually the government. 

I don't know what you think schools are going to need in order to employ all these so called new assistants, schools only have a finite amount of space, they certainly won't have enough room to employ all these extra people. 

The government will provide help to your son as they have with UC, but instead of defence and deflection it's seems to me and I'd argue many others on here that your son needs to look introspectively and take charge of his own career, life and acceptance of his lack of income as it was pre covid19 that the industry is not providing financial support and regardless of Covid-19 that decisions is his and his responsibility alone not the governments. 

I'll bail on this subject now, because in the 2 years I've been on here and seen you post about it, there never seems to be any change or acceptance just blame passed elsewhere. I wish you all well but I'll say one last thing "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results" 

Hope it works out for him 👍🏻


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'm sorry if you read that as me saying your son in whingeing, because if you had you've read it through defensive glasses and not taken on board any point I've made.

Your opening line is indicative of his plight, whilst admirable he wants to continue to follow his it also shows a lack of acceptance on what ultimately is needed in life and thats to pay the bills. Which over the last 2 years alone we've heard you on here bemoaning the fact he continually cannot do so and you've had to often help financially. Regardless of Covid-19 that shows his plight isn't new and that his dream career had been faltering for a long time, but seems there is an apparent lack of acceptance that something else needs doing.

Then you have continued with your reply that the government needs to do something to create new jobs, the government should retrain people or help in schools.

Your sons been in this circle for a number of years, his choice to remain in an industry that he has already struggled in to point of parental bail outs and is now actively choosing to continue to do so. Many on here have offered advice snd solutions over the recent years, but nothing is ever heeded, instead its deflected onto others and usually the government.

*I don't know what you think schools are going to need in order to employ all these so called new assistants, schools only have a finite amount of space, they certainly won't have enough room to employ all these extra people.*

The government will provide help to your son as they have with UC, but instead of defence and deflection it's seems to me and I'd argue many others on here that your son needs to look introspectively and take charge of his own career, life and acceptance of his lack of income as it was pre covid19 that the industry is not providing financial support and regardless of Covid-19 that decisions is his and his responsibility alone not the governments.

I'll bail on this subject now, because in the 2 years I've been on here and seen you post about it, there never seems to be any change or acceptance just blame passed elsewhere. I wish you all well but I'll say one last thing "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results"

Hope it works out for him 👍🏻
		
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On this I agree.  But if secondary schools are going to open in September how are they going to do it?  Some might have temp accommodation on-site - some might take on additional accommodation outside of the school - and so as for hospital and the building of Nightingale Hospitals - there needs to be a focus on what s required to enable schools to cope.

And if that requires additional accommodation on site or off-site then it is going to have to be staffed - and especially if that accommodation is off-site that will require new temporary resource.  And that new temporary resource needs advertising, engaged, checked and trained.  All I am saying is there should be a bit of advance planning and joined up thinking for such as schooling that creates opportunity to employ many thousands of currently - perhaps temporarily - unemployed skilled resource.

On training - well if the government is not going to create and/or fund training schemes then who is - because sure as heck the unemployed on Universal Credit aren't going to be able to afford to pay for training - at least not up front.

*There is no blame* from either myself or my son being directed towards the government on job losses. I do not know how many times I have to say that.  *There no complaining* from either of us that the government is not doing something on the job creation or training.

There is a *hope *that the government will be able to identify where the country has needs and do something about it - there are many hundreds of thousands out there feeling very vulnerable and asking 'what next' for their future work and livelihood.

It's all very well saying my son has to take control of his own career.  I 100% agree and so would he - as he has done seeking absolutely no support from the government for the last 7 years.  None whatsoever.  And taking control in a job market where jobs are disappearing and unemployed numbers could be 3,000,000 is tough.   These are not normal times - and he is looking at what he might be able to move to.  

The government can help by creating alternative new possibilities based upon what the country *needs *- albeit temporary alternatives - but these could be alternatives that many might look to take advantage of until the future for their currently knacked sectors becomes clearer.  

That is all I am hoping to hear from the government in the coming weeks as it looks at reducing social distancing and what that might mean for the sectors currently at a dead stop as the risk remains too high. 

Please don't misunderstand.  If the government feels it need do nothing for the newly unemployed over the coming months then so be it.  My son will plough his own furrow as he has done the last 7 years.  He is lucky to have us.  Many do not have a Bank of MaD.  It is they that need help more than he.


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## drdel (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On this I agree.  But if secondary schools are going to open in September how are they going to do it?  Some might have temp accommodation on-site - some might take on additional accommodation outside of the school - and so as for hospital and the building of Nightingale Hospitals - there needs to be a focus on what s required to enable schools to cope.

And if that requires additional accommodation on site or off-site then it is going to have to be staffed - and especially if that accommodation is off-site that will require new temporary resource.  And that new temporary resource needs advertising, engaged, checked and trained.  All I am saying is there should be a bit of advance planning and joined up thinking for such as schooling that creates opportunity to employ many thousands of currently - perhaps temporarily - unemployed skilled resource.

On training - well if the government is not going to create and/or fund training schemes then who is - because sure as heck the unemployed on Universal Credit aren't going to be able to afford to pay for training - at least not up front.

*There is no blame* from either myself or my son being directed towards the government on job losses. I do not know how many times I have to say that.  *There no complaining* from either of us that the government is not doing something on the job creation or training.

There is a *hope *that the government will be able to identify where the country has needs and do something about it - there are many hundreds of thousands out there feeling very vulnerable and asking 'what next' for their future work and livelihood.

It's all very well saying my son has to take control of his own career.  I 100% agree and so would he - as he has done seeking absolutely no support from the government for the last 7 years.  None whatsoever.  And taking control in a job market where jobs are disappearing and unemployed numbers could be 3,000,000 is tough.   These are not normal times - and he is looking at what he might be able to move to.

The government can help by creating alternative new possibilities based upon what the country *needs *- albeit temporary alternatives - but these could be alternatives that many might look to take advantage of until the future for their currently knacked sectors becomes clearer.

That is all I am hoping to hear from the government in the coming weeks as it looks at reducing social distancing and what that might mean for the sectors currently at a dead stop as the risk remains too high.

Please don't misunderstand.  If the government feels it need do nothing for the newly unemployed over the coming months then so be it.  My son will plough his own furrow as he has done the last 7 years.  He is lucky to have us.  Many do not have a Bank of MaD.  It is they that need help more than he.
		
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Creating temporary jobs merely kicks the can down the road.

If the businesses were profitable before Covid-19 then it suggests there was a demand. New businesses may move in to fill the gap. It will take a bit of time and Government may be able to kick-start such activities. Mickey mouse creation won't work


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## Hobbit (Jun 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On this I agree.  But if secondary schools are going to open in September how are they going to do it?  Some might have temp accommodation on-site - some might take on additional accommodation outside of the school - and so as for hospital and the building of Nightingale Hospitals - there needs to be a focus on what s required to enable schools to cope.

And if that requires additional accommodation on site or off-site then it is going to have to be staffed - and especially if that accommodation is off-site that will require new temporary resource.  And that new temporary resource needs advertising, engaged, checked and trained.  All I am saying is there should be a bit of advance planning and joined up thinking for such as schooling that creates opportunity to employ many thousands of currently - perhaps temporarily - unemployed skilled resource.

On training - well if the government is not going to create and/or fund training schemes then who is - because sure as heck the unemployed on Universal Credit aren't going to be able to afford to pay for training - at least not up front.

*There is no blame* from either myself or my son being directed towards the government on job losses. I do not know how many times I have to say that.  *There no complaining* from either of us that the government is not doing something on the job creation or training.

There is a *hope *that the government will be able to identify where the country has needs and do something about it - there are many hundreds of thousands out there feeling very vulnerable and asking 'what next' for their future work and livelihood.

It's all very well saying my son has to take control of his own career.  I 100% agree and so would he - as he has done seeking absolutely no support from the government for the last 7 years.  None whatsoever.  And taking control in a job market where jobs are disappearing and unemployed numbers could be 3,000,000 is tough.   These are not normal times - and he is looking at what he might be able to move to. 

The government can help by creating alternative new possibilities based upon what the country *needs *- albeit temporary alternatives - but these could be alternatives that many might look to take advantage of until the future for their currently knacked sectors becomes clearer. 

That is all I am hoping to hear from the government in the coming weeks as it looks at reducing social distancing and what that might mean for the sectors currently at a dead stop as the risk remains too high.

Please don't misunderstand.  If the government feels it need do nothing for the newly unemployed over the coming months then so be it.  My son will plough his own furrow as he has done the last 7 years.  He is lucky to have us.  Many do not have a Bank of MaD.  It is they that need help more than he.
		
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Has your son ploughed his own furrow or have you bailed him out too much? If it wasn’t for the bank of mum and dad he’d be in a different career by now - he’d have had to.

Like you, and no doubt many others, I’ve had to bail a ‘child’ out but there has to be a limit to the bail outs.

You’ve supported his business venture. You’ve bailed him out with his mobile. You’ve ‘bailed’ him out with his tax return. And you’ve ‘bailed’ him out with his dodgy girlfriend. Is he 16 years old?

Whilst you do what you do, as admirable as it is, you are making his future very difficult. One day he will get a huge shock, and you will be largely to blame for that. 

How you manage your relationship, and your family, is 100% up to you but what happens when you’re retired or dead? Who does he go to then? Your choice, but ultimately I don’t Think you’re doing him any favours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2020)

We are very well aware of the risks in continuing to support him - but at this point we recognise the very difficult situation that he and many hundreds of thousands have been put in.  Their income has disappeared.

Living off UC is very tough (though some would have us believe it is a lifestyle choice that is preferable to actually working...) and so we do what we can to provide a little bit extra as we recognise that there is little he can do at this moment to improve his situation other than start to look at alternative careers.  And he is doing that as well as trying to earn a little money by making his music available for download - and we can support him doing that.

But he and his partner will not live off us.  That stopped last year.  To suggest that we should just ignore the situation our son is in where that situation is no fault of his or anyone else? Well I would consider myself callous were I to do that.  And so I will not.  And likewise government.  They have not ignored the need of those in the same situation and had they not doe what they have done they would be considered callous.  And so the government is 'bailing out' all of those now unemployed and with no or significantly reduced income.

There seems to be a view prevalent here among quite a few that those whose work has disappeared - even for the time being - need to just forget what they were doing and look for a new source of income.  Oh were that as easy as it is to type the words.  Never easy but in the current employment environment?

Meanwhile it is surely a responsibility of any government to do whatever it can on training and job generation for all of those made redundant or, if self-employed, who have lost all of their income.  And that is all that I am hoping that the government will do.  The alternative being to pay 3 million to sit on UC doing nothing.   

On the temporary jobs.  If the country only needs new roles for a short period of time whilst we re-organise much of our daily life, and manage such as education, in the context of the virus then these jobs are going to be, by definition, temporary jobs but they are the correct solution.

Indeed are Contact Tracers Permanent jobs or Temporary jobs.  I'd say that the majority are temporary jobs as hopefully the numbers currently employed will not be required once a vaccine has been identified and the risk of infection in the community drops significantly.  But these roles were needed.  I'm not talking about inventing jobs for the sake of it.  But create jobs where there is a NEED.  As there was for Contact Tracers.  That's all.  Nothing else.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

Dorset and Cornwall now have the highest rate of new infections in the UK. Thanks everybody for piling down here at weekends and ignoring advice to stay safe, we really appreciate it


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## DRW (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Dorset and Cornwall now have the highest rate of new infections in the UK. Thanks everybody for piling down here at weekends and ignoring advice to stay safe, we really appreciate it 

Click to expand...

EDIT to add https://twitter.com/chriswithers13/status/1272239189019459585/photo/1

https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1272234637990006784

https://twitter.com/dontbetyet/status/1272243913223548930/photo/1

devon & dorset area looks low ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

DRW said:



			EDIT to add https://twitter.com/chriswithers13/status/1272239189019459585/photo/1

https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1272234637990006784

https://twitter.com/dontbetyet/status/1272243913223548930/photo/1

devon & dorset area looks low ?
		
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Yes, don't understand why Devon is so low but Dorset isn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-coronavirus-cases-falling-or-rising-near-you


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## DRW (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Yes, don't understand why Devon is so low but Dorset isn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-coronavirus-cases-falling-or-rising-near-you

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Cases are really low tho, therefore one case can be a massive weekly increase that that article is writing a headline on.

On your link Dorset had 1 case last week and 2 this week.   'Wow' its a 100% increase but the real truth is there has been 2 cases this week and 1 case last week. Almost pointless talking about % increases as it is misleading when numbers are so low IMHO.

Hopefully that's good news to hear.

Another goodish website to access daily figures(for tests that can be allocated to areas, as loads of tests are not allocated to areas by government) :-

https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/dorset-coronavirus-cases
https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/devon-coronavirus-cases
https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/cornwall-and-isles-of-scilly-coronavirus-cases

In Shropshire we have more daily cases than that .


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

DRW said:



			Cases are really low tho, therefore one case can be a massive weekly increase that that article is writing a headline on.

On your link Dorset had 1 case last week and 2 this week.   'Wow' its a 100% increase but the real truth is there has been 2 cases this week and 1 case last week. Almost pointless talking about % increases as it is misleading when numbers are so low IMHO.

Hopefully that's good news to hear.

Another goodish website to access daily figures(for tests that can be allocated to areas, as loads of tests are not allocated to areas by government) :-

https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/dorset-coronavirus-cases
https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/devon-coronavirus-cases
https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/cornwall-and-isles-of-scilly-coronavirus-cases

In Shropshire we have more daily cases than that . 

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Thanks for your comprehensive analysis, the numbers will rise over the next few weeks as the beaches down here have been absolutely rammed over the last few weekends.


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Yes, don't understand why Devon is so low but Dorset isn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-coronavirus-cases-falling-or-rising-near-you

Click to expand...

Dorset does seem low, on that Guardian map, whilst there is a 100% increase in cases, it has moved from 1 to 2.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Dorset does seem low, on that Guardian map, whilst there is a 100% increase in cases, it has moved from 1 to 2.
		
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It certainly isn't going to stay low

https://www.google.com/search?q=bou...ECAoQBA&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=rpNHgmNFCRaCQM:


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Thanks for your comprehensive analysis, the numbers will rise over the next few weeks as the beaches down here have been absolutely rammed over the last few weekends.
		
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That seems like a massive assumption, so far we have meant to see massive increases following VE day, the May bank holiday, the sunny weekend after lockdown was more significantly relaxed and now we are over a week after the initial BLM protests and that massive rise has not happened.


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			It certainly isn't going to stay low

https://www.google.com/search?q=bournemouth+beach+crowds&sxsrf=ALeKk01D-D9mlG5it3K_6HOt31RHiqowRw:1592301497759&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=rpNHgmNFCRaCQM%3A%2COYAEYfebsdB6qM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ8leGqLLu1q-gQH03j5eqoLrXxRQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjypipiYbqAhVQTcAKHToSBE4Q9QEwAHoECAoQBA&biw=1366&bih=657#imgrc=rpNHgmNFCRaCQM:
		
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When were these pictures from, looking at the weather compared to what we have now, I am guessing May bank holiday or the weekend after. That, do date, appears to have resulted in 2 cases.


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## pendodave (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Thanks for your comprehensive analysis, the numbers will rise over the next few weeks as the beaches down here have been absolutely rammed over the last few weekends.
		
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Did you all go out and hug them? Did they cough over you all through open windows?
I'm curious as to what the infecting mechanisms were.


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## road2ruin (Jun 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			That seems like a massive assumption, so far we have meant to see massive increases following VE day, the May bank holiday, the sunny weekend after lockdown was more significantly relaxed and now we are over a week after the initial BLM protests and that massive rise has not happened.
		
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Agree, the VE parties that were splashed across the front pages of the papers where meant to be the beginning of the end, or at least the beginning of the start of Covid: Spike Two. We had loads of them in our area and no discernible rise in numbers and the newspapers aren't nearly as quick to report the lack of the spike.


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Agree, the VE parties that were splashed across the front pages of the papers where meant to be the beginning of the end, or at least the beginning of the start of Covid: Spike Two. We had loads of them in our area and no discernible rise in numbers and the newspapers aren't nearly as quick to report the lack of the spike.
		
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I am going to be interested to see how we react if there is no spike in the next 2 weeks. If there is not, we would have had thousands of people meeting in the open air at the BLM protests with little social distancing and no spike. Surely that is pretty good evidence that outside restrictions really are not necessary. As I said, that is a massive hope that there will be no spike but, to my mind, these protests have become an impromptu test on how the virus is spreading now among crowds in an outside environment.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Did you all go out and hug them? Did they cough over you all through open windows?
I'm curious as to what the infecting mechanisms were.
		
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I'm not sure what your point is?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			When were these pictures from, looking at the weather compared to what we have now, I am guessing May bank holiday or the weekend after. That, do date, appears to have resulted in 2 cases.
		
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Those particular pictures were from the May BH weekend however it has been like that every weekend since as we have been enjoying great weather.


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Those particular pictures were from the May BH weekend however it has been like that every weekend since as we have been enjoying great weather.
		
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OK, that was over 3 weeks ago, there has been no rise in infections in the area and so there would not appear to be an issue. As I mentioned above, maybe the risks posed to those outside, social distancing or not, are actually less than originally perceived and we need further relaxation in that area.

What it does show is that your assumption that these actions will result in an increase in infections is clearly incorrect as these actions were taken 3 weeks ago and there has been no increase and so their impact has been minimal. Hopefully instances like these will show a reduced risk associated with outdoor activity and so people can actually be encouraged to go to the beach, have some form of basic holiday time and also get some money back into the coastal communities.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			OK, that was over 3 weeks ago, there has been no rise in infections in the area and so there would not appear to be an issue. As I mentioned above, maybe the risks posed to those outside, social distancing or not, are actually less than originally perceived and we need further relaxation in that area.

*What it does show is that your assumption that these actions will result in an increase in infections is clearly incorrect as these actions were taken 3 weeks ago and there has been no increase and so their impact has been minimal*. Hopefully instances like these will show a reduced risk associated with outdoor activity and so people can actually be encouraged to go to the beach, have some form of basic holiday time and also get some money back into the coastal communities.
		
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What about the increases in the areas those people have travelled from? Most locals stayed away, we are not as stupid as the incomers but people working in the shops, cafes etc will have been put at risk and spread the virus around their families. If everyone isolated then there would be no new infections but there are so clearly people have not followed the guidelines.


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			What about the increases in the areas those people have travelled from? Most locals stayed away, we are not as stupid as the incomers but people working in the shops, cafes etc will have been put at risk and spread the virus around their families. If everyone isolated then there would be no new infections but there are so clearly people have not followed the guidelines.
		
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No increase on a national level either. No risk to shops, cafes etc on the bank holiday weekend as all would have still be closed and under lockdown. You want lockdown to continue, that is clear and I suspect that you are in an enviable position of being able to sit this out for as long as possible. I am on the other side of things. We have stopped the NHS getting swamped (which was the aim, the aim was never to stop everyone getting it), the government has paid out what it can afford but now people need to start getting the economy moving and getting on with their lives. You show concern for shopkeepers and cafe owners. If you are in a coastal community reliant on visitors, those businesses will not exist if they cannot open soon. All of the evidence suggests that the crowded beaches that you point out have had no detrimental and so the government and local authorities should be encouraging more people to head to them. Get the caravan sites and camp sites open.  

With no real chance of foreign travel, if you live on the coast, I would be prepared for a prolonged and very busy period of people coming to the coast for some form of break and I am all for it. People reliant on tourists have lost a load already and I am glad that they will get the chance to recoup some losses.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			No increase on a national level either. No risk to shops, cafes etc on the bank holiday weekend as all would have still be closed and under lockdown. You want lockdown to continue, that is clear and I suspect that you are in an enviable position of being able to sit this out for as long as possible. I am on the other side of things. We have stopped the NHS getting swamped (which was the aim, the aim was never to stop everyone getting it), the government has paid out what it can afford but now people need to start getting the economy moving and getting on with their lives. You show concern for shopkeepers and cafe owners. If you are in a coastal community reliant on visitors, those businesses will not exist if they cannot open soon. All of the evidence suggests that the crowded beaches that you point out have had no detrimental and so the government and local authorities should be encouraging more people to head to them. Get the caravan sites and camp sites open. 

With no real chance of foreign travel, if you live on the coast, I would be prepared for a prolonged and very busy period of people coming to the coast for some form of break and I am all for it. People reliant on tourists have lost a load already and I am glad that they will get the chance to recoup some losses.
		
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I am not reliant on tourism, I work in a completely different sector so it actually doesn't affect me at all. However, I am very glad to read your words of comfort, it doesn't appear that Covid is an issue then if what you say is correct. I'm pleased about that, means we can get back to crowds at sporting events, concerts etc. Happy days


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I am not reliant on tourism, I work in a completely different sector so it actually doesn't affect me at all. However, I am very glad to read your words of comfort, it doesn't appear that Covid is an issue then if what you say is correct. I'm pleased about that, means we can get back to crowds at sporting events, concerts etc. Happy days  

Click to expand...

I did not say that you were reliant on toursim but hundreds of people in your area will be and they need people to start coming back and spending money. Yes, I am very much of the opinion that we cannot hide from this forever, it is not going away and so we have to learn to live with it. Staying locked up is not going to do that. We have had a number of very public breaches by crowds of accepted protocol but, rather than criticise them (as I said on previous posts, I will not do that until I know the circustance of those involved. You can bet, for example, that if I lived in a cramped urban environment, I would be off to the nearest beach or park every chance I could), I am looking at the positives and every one of these as been an impromptu test. The VE parties did nothing, the may bank holiday did nothing, the hot June weekend did nothing and so I am hard pressed to find the arguments against these aside from people being selfish and not wanting outsiders in their part of the country, we get that in rural lincolnshire as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I did not say that you were reliant on toursim but hundreds of people in your area will be and they need people to start coming back and spending money. Yes, I am very much of the opinion that we cannot hide from this forever, it is not going away and so we have to learn to live with it. Staying locked up is not going to do that. We have had a number of very public breaches by crowds of accepted protocol but, rather than criticise them (as I said on previous posts, I will not do that until I know the circustance of those involved. You can bet, for example, that if I lived in a cramped urban environment, I would be off to the nearest beach or park every chance I could), I am looking at the positives and every one of these as been an impromptu test. *The VE parties did nothing, the may bank holiday did nothing, the hot June weekend did nothing *and so I am hard pressed to find the arguments against these aside from people being selfish and not wanting outsiders in their part of the country, we get that in rural lincolnshire as well.
		
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To point out the rather obvious - we actually don't know this for a fact as we do not know what the situation would have been had these events not taken place.


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## GB72 (Jun 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			To point out the rather obvious - we actually don't know this for a fact as we do not know what the situation would have been had these events not taken place.
		
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Fair point and accepted on that count but we can also say that it has not shown an increase in infection levels to the extent that we have seen the early stages of a second spike. With the relaxations from a couple of weeks ago, I would have even taken a relative plateau as an OK outcome.


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## DRW (Jun 16, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53061281

Sounds like a 'cheap' treatment and very good results on a large number of patient trials.

Cracking news as such.


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## USER1999 (Jun 16, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Dorset and Cornwall now have the highest rate of new infections in the UK. Thanks everybody for piling down here at weekends and ignoring advice to stay safe, we really appreciate it 

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Sorry, but am calling BS on this. Up until the last few weeks every thing was shut, so the opportunity to mix it with the locals, unless they infringed social distancing, was zero.
Since the last few weeks, there have been a few ice-cream/coffee/ chip suppliers open. Probably half what would normally be open. With social distancing, contact less payment, no toilets.
Most of the people servicing said establishments are teenagers, who have been stepping back, obeying the rules, and are in a demographic unlikely to catch it.
Given the number of outlets open, we are probably talking less than 50 locals working in hospitality exposed, possibly.
Most of the people on the beaches came from somewhere else. If there was a bounce, I would not expect it to be local, more where ever these people came from.
If it was local, then it was there already.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sorry, but am calling BS on this. Up until the last few weeks every thing was shut, so the opportunity to mix it with the locals, unless they infringed social distancing, was zero.
Since the last few weeks, there have been a few ice-cream/coffee/ chip suppliers open. Probably half what would normally be open. With social distancing, contact less payment, no toilets.
Most of the people servicing said establishments are teenagers, who have been stepping back, obeying the rules, and are in a demographic unlikely to catch it.
Given the number of outlets open, we are probably talking less than 50 locals working in hospitality exposed, possibly.
Most of the people on the beaches came from somewhere else. If there was a bounce, I would not expect it to be local, more where ever these people came from.
If it was local, then it was there already.
		
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You're not helping by coming down at weekends either.


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## Hobbit (Jun 17, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Fair point and accepted on that count but we can also say that it has not shown an increase in infection levels to the extent that we have seen the early stages of a second spike. With the relaxations from a couple of weeks ago, I would have even taken a relative plateau as an OK outcome.
		
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One of the worst, publicised, breaches on VE Day was in Middlesbrough. Middlesbrough is currently showing as one of the worst areas for new infections. Is there a correlation? I don't know but its not something that can should ignored.

Beijing is experiencing a nasty spike. Madrid saw new infections double yesterday. Madrid isn't even in phase 3 of unlock yet. The bars were opened to live entertainment at the weekend, but no dancing allowed - that lasted all of 30 mins before several bars had wall to wall dancing. Several bars have already gone to the wall, and opening up has to happen but there must be some control to it.


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## DRW (Jun 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			One of the worst, publicised, breaches on VE Day was in* Middlesbrough. Middlesbrough is currently showing as one of the worst areas for new infections*. Is there a correlation? I don't know but its not something that can should ignored.

Beijing is experiencing a nasty spike. Madrid saw new infections double yesterday. Madrid isn't even in phase 3 of unlock yet. The bars were opened to live entertainment at the weekend, but no dancing allowed - that lasted all of 30 mins before several bars had wall to wall dancing. Several bars have already gone to the wall, and opening up has to happen but there must be some control to it.
		
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Not to sure on the data for what you say above but from here :-

https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/middlesbrough-coronavirus-cases

They had 4 new infection cases in the last week and 9 cases in the previous week. A dropping rate of new cases but tbh Fairly low in absolute cases so hard to draw any conclusions from or percentage comparison.

There is also a summary infections per region given here, for a comparison :-

https://www.getthedata.com/covid-19/utla-by-day

Wish where I lived was dropping like that, Shropshire had 9 new cases yesterday and 23 in the last week and shropshire is fairly rural 

And totally agree we need to be very careful with relaxations.


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## Imurg (Jun 18, 2020)

Mmmm.....
Mrs Imurg had the antibody test at work this week as they're rolling it out to all NHS..
Results have come back negative....
So what the hell did we both have in late March that put me in a chair for a couple of days and her for almost a week..?
Anxiety levels have risen a touch as a result.......


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mmmm.....
Mrs Imurg had the antibody test at work this week as they're rolling it out to all NHS..
Results have come back negative....
So what the hell did we both have in late March that put me in a chair for a couple of days and her for almost a week..?
Anxiety levels have risen a touch as a result.......
		
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Not had the test for exactly that reason. Had something early in 2020 that knocked me off my feet and then something else that resulted in me getting medically suspended and having two tests (one inconclusive, second negative) but definitely wondering what it all was. Like you another negative result would definitely increase anxiety


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mmmm.....
Mrs Imurg had the antibody test at work this week as they're rolling it out to all NHS..
Results have come back negative....
So what the hell did we both have in late March that put me in a chair for a couple of days and her for almost a week..?
Anxiety levels have risen a touch as a result.......
		
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What are the chances of a false negative? Wasn't one of the tests accurate to 99% in that it wouldn't give a false positive but much less accurate in terms of giving a false negative?


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## Imurg (Jun 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What are the chances of a false negative? Wasn't one of the tests accurate to 99% in that it wouldn't give a false positive but much less accurate in terms of giving a false negative?
		
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Not sure but they're supposed to be pretty accurate 
Of course, no antibodies = no immunity 
Great..


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## Beezerk (Jun 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What are the chances of a false negative? Wasn't one of the tests accurate to 99% in that it wouldn't give a false positive but much less accurate in terms of giving a false negative?
		
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A colleague's daughters is a geneticist in Liverpool, her department have dropped their usual work to do some of these Covid tests. She was saying you need to have three tests to be 100% sure of a truly accurate result.


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## Imurg (Jun 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			A colleague's daughters is a geneticist in Liverpool, her department have dropped their usual work to do some of these Covid tests. She was saying you need to have three tests to be 100% sure of a truly accurate result.
		
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I'll send her back to get needled  again.....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 19, 2020)

The local Car Boot Sale being open from this Sunday! I don’t go, I won’t go, but in normal times it causes chaos on local roads and when driving past it is normally rammed like a cattle market.
Why the Council has allowed this is beyond me! Absolute breeding ground for the virus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2020)

Big redundancies likely at my wife's place of work - but her role is safe and it looks like her job is safe.


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## huds1475 (Jun 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had something early in 2020 that knocked me off my feet and then something else that resulted in me getting medically suspended and having two tests (one inconclusive, second negative) but definitely wondering what it all was. Like you another negative result would definitely increase anxiety
		
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Not having a go here Homer. Is a general point 👍

Have seen / heard lots of people say they had something bad in the last 6 months. Then speculating C19 was going round earlier / theyve had it so now they might be immune and so on.

I did too, took me ages to shake off.  But I'm not going to speculate it was C19. As far as I'm concerned I've not had C19 until a test proves +ve.

Why I / anyone else would speculate about something so serious is something I find really strange.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 19, 2020)

Been called in for a C19 test next week as part of pre assesment for hospital outpatient appointment week after. Must be extra capacity as I wasn't given this a month ago.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 19, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Not having a go here Homer. Is a general point 👍

Have seen / heard lots of people say they had something bad in the last 6 months. Then speculating C19 was going round earlier / theyve had it so now they might be immune and so on.

I did too, took me ages to shake off.  But I'm not going to speculate it was C19. As far as I'm concerned I've not had C19 until a test proves +ve.

Why I / anyone else would speculate about something so serious is something I find really strange.
		
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It was a general comment. A lot of our staff had said they had a bug that knocked them off their feet and more than the usual flu/winter bugs. Some have said they had it as far back as Christmas. It just seems strange that it seems to have hit so many people. I am not saying for one minute they have had it and so have any immunity. I am just saying in my case I had it recently (during the current Covid outbreak and so got swabbed - twice - and as it came back negative I have to go with it). Were I to go for the antibody test I doubt it'll come back positive and if it did the swab test was a false negative and if it didn't then I am in that catch 22 of not having it having had something equally as poky in terms of knocking me off my feet

On a more sombre note, we have been Covid free in ICU for the last five days but what we have seen in the same period is a huge increase in suicide attempts. Sad at any time that someone ends up feeling it's the only course of action (but that's a different discussion entirely) but I wonder if this is an impact of the prolonged lockdown and how it will have affected people mentally. Definitely a situation no-one will have been in before and I suppose a lot of support networks will have simply been cut-off. Definitely been a tough couple of days seeing the impact on the families but also for the nurses


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## spongebob59 (Jun 19, 2020)

Incoming 

https://www.newsweek.com/houston-pr...floyd-1511066?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2020)

El fako newso?


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2020)

I can't find it, where is it exactly?


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## Beezerk (Jun 20, 2020)

Thank you Mr Helpful 😂
I don't have that option on my phone.

*Edit*

Found it, sneaky bustards 🤔
At least it's disabled by default, I wonder if it automatically turns on when you enable Bluetooth. Who's going to try it? 🤣


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## Imurg (Jun 20, 2020)

It's on mine...android 
Needs Bluetooth and location on all the time..


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 20, 2020)

All ready for the launch in December then 👍.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 20, 2020)

Wonder what advertising they're bolt into this 😉


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2020)

I fail to understand why local authorities/educators are not looking at this covid school problem differently.
As an example the area where I live has five small villages each has a primary school that feeds into the secondary schools of the two nearest large towns.
All the villages has a closed village hall [and a church] so the  use of at least three buildings are available.
To prevent children travelling why not educate the secondary school children in their own villages.
Instead of hundreds of children travelling you could have a small number of teachers visiting each site.
Why are we having school holidays. The kids could return throughout the summer months and catch up on lost time.
It would obviously take a certain amount of short term sorting until we start living in a safer environment.


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## IainP (Jun 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Incoming

https://www.newsweek.com/houston-pr...floyd-1511066?amp=1&__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

That's a poor font to choose for that headline.
Then again for perhaps obvious reasons I dislike fonts that make a capital i look like a l


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Not having a go here Homer. Is a general point 👍

Have seen / heard lots of people say they had something bad in the last 6 months. Then speculating C19 was going round earlier / theyve had it so now they might be immune and so on.

I did too, took me ages to shake off.  But I'm not going to speculate it was C19. As far as I'm concerned I've not had C19 until a test proves +ve.

Why I / anyone else would speculate about something so serious is something I find really strange.
		
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As one who has said I believe it has been about for a lot longer, I know more than a few people who have had something that knocked them off their feet for a while and a family bereavement from an unidentified viral infection.  The more that becomes known about Covid 19, the more the symptoms that were exhibited by these people seem to match it as a cause.  I'm also becoming more & more aware of people who have tested positive for antibodies without exhibiting any symptoms.

So, if the people mentioned didn't suffer from Covid 19, that tends to suggest that immediately prior to the Covid 19 pandemic, there was a second virus doing the rounds.  Yet despite all the intensive testing being done at the moment, I've seen nothing about a second virus being detected, which I would expect to be the case.

Given that, I wouldn't call it speculation, I'd call it a reasonable deduction that this has been around for longer and has been through more people as a consequence.  It seems too much of a coincidence to have two different viruses of this magnitude doing the rounds at the same time, and I'm with Jack Reagan on coincidences.

As for being immune, I've got no idea if I am or I'm not so will be continuing to follow the guidelines.  But as far as immunity goes, I feel that the Government should be doing more to test for antibodies because if the anecdotal evidence and the subsequent deduction are correct, we are doing a lot of shutting down for very little effect; horses and locked stable doors and all that.


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			As one who has said I believe it has been about for a lot longer, I know more than a few people who have had something that knocked them off their feet for a while and a family bereavement from an unidentified viral infection.  The more that becomes known about Covid 19, the more the symptoms that were exhibited by these people seem to match it as a cause.  I'm also becoming more & more aware of people who have tested positive for antibodies without exhibiting any symptoms.

So, if the people mentioned didn't suffer from Covid 19, that tends to suggest that immediately prior to the Covid 19 pandemic, there was a second virus doing the rounds.  Yet despite all the intensive testing being done at the moment, I've seen nothing about a second virus being detected, which I would expect to be the case.

Given that, I wouldn't call it speculation, I'd call it a reasonable deduction that this has been around for longer and has been through more people as a consequence.  It seems too much of a coincidence to have two different viruses of this magnitude doing the rounds at the same time, and I'm with Jack Reagan on coincidences.

As for being immune, I've got no idea if I am or I'm not so will be continuing to follow the guidelines.  But as far as immunity goes, I feel that the Government should be doing more to test for antibodies because if the anecdotal evidence and the subsequent deduction are correct, we are doing a lot of shutting down for very little effect; horses and locked stable doors and all that.
		
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I think its a wait and see, if a test hasn't confirmed it. For example, the flu that people had across the winter of 2018/2019 could have been any one of 3 different flu's that were prevalent back then.

Many of us hope we've had it, following being floored in Jan/Feb, but the results that are starting to appear suggest that it might have been something else.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think its a wait and see, if a test hasn't confirmed it. For example, the flu that people had across the winter of 2018/2019 could have been any one of 3 different flu's that were prevalent back then.

Many of us hope we've had it, following being floored in Jan/Feb, but the results that are starting to appear suggest that it might have been something else.
		
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I agree it's a wait & see Brian, and I understand that it might be something else, but I find it too much of a coincidence that if it was something else that the testing hasn't somehow identified that.  I hope I'm right but I fully accept that there may yet be another explanation that proves me wrong.  But the longer the testing goes on without identifying a second virus or an alternative cause (assuming that it can), I think the more people will hope that it is the case that Covid 19 has been around longer. and that we are further through this than is currently thought.


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## chellie (Jun 20, 2020)

There was something similar that did the rounds here in  the winter of 2018 and 2019.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 20, 2020)

Has Covid 19 forced you to wear a mask and glasses at the same time?

If so, you could be entitled to condensation...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Has Covid 19 forced you to wear a mask and glasses at the same time?

If so, you could be entitled to condensation...
		
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Not your best. 

It has been a real pain especially when we were using FFP3 as we had to get the seal right so the glasses didn't steam up. The surgical masks are a bit better but can still get the odd foggy moment. It's mandatory for staff to wear a mask at all times when in the hospital unless SD can be maintained (I'm in an office on my own so it comes off - biggest problem is remembering to put it back on when I leave the office). 

Seems there is no let up in suicides coming in. Another admitted today. All very sad and strange to see so many in such a condensed space of time


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## Italian outcast (Jun 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think its a wait and see, if a test hasn't confirmed it. For example, the flu that people had across the winter of 2018/2019 could have been any one of 3 different flu's that were prevalent back then.

Many of us hope we've had it, following being floored in Jan/Feb, but the results that are starting to appear suggest that it might have been something else.
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			I agree it's a wait & see Brian, and I understand that it might be something else, but I find it too much of a coincidence that if it was something else that the testing hasn't somehow identified that.  I hope I'm right but I fully accept that there may yet be another explanation that proves me wrong.  But the longer the testing goes on without identifying a second virus or an alternative cause (assuming that it can), I think the more people will hope that it is the case that Covid 19 has been around longer. and that we are further through this than is currently thought.
		
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The lass and I were both ill at the end of January with flu-type illness - I was in bed for 2 days - I've never had clinical flu before - and I'm rarely ill
Obviously being in Bergamo we were both at risk of catching Covid -  a number of family members and friends did (and worse)
We both isolated +++ -and did all the preventive practices - lass never went out for 10 weeks
We both got antibody tests 2 weeks ago - negative / no trace - so In January its likely it was flu - there was a virulent flu strain in Northern Italy in Dec/Jan

BIM - RE tests [BTW much of my past work has been in flu vaccines and surveillance]

The testing cannot and does not look for anything except for Covid - the swap test for new tests specifically looks for protein sequences that are unique to covid
The antibody tests also specifically look for Covid antibodies
Looking for active influenza is a completely different test - as is looking for antibodies to see if you have had flu (of various strains)
The challenge in flu is that you may have had past infection (from last year or a couple of years ago) and still have antibodies

So - My take

In Italy (and UK)- anything before Feb/March is more likely to be flu
Testing otherwise is not being done (and in practical terms cannot be done) - due to logistics and cost

The good news in general is that across Europe including the UK - the picture is far better - we are over the worst IMO and theres no real signal of a resurgence
Its uncertain what may happen later in the year mind, but hopefully the virus may have died down in transmission and virulence (that happens with corona vs)


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## fundy (Jun 21, 2020)

I see the numbers in Germany maybe going in the wrong direction again  Their R rate for the last 4 days is now 2.88 and for the last 7 days to 2.03 albeit it seems to be down to a few regional outbreaks rather than countrywide


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## drdel (Jun 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			I see the numbers in Germany maybe going in the wrong direction again  Their R rate for the last 4 days is now 2.88 and for the last 7 days to 2.03 albeit it seems to be down to a few regional outbreaks rather than countrywide
		
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But they have a small total so a few more will change the R by quite a lot. 

Seems the outbreak in the meat processors triggered most of the change.


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## Foxholer (Jun 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			But they have* a small total* so a few more will change the R by quite a lot.
...
		
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I don't believe their* total* (which at 190K is NOT 'small', though somewhat smaller than UK's; their death rate IS 'low' though) affects R at all - as, I believe, R = the Retransmission rate.
It seems to me that a consistently small recent *detection rate* ('detection' could be from deaths, admissions, testing et al) *that suddenly jumps *would be the cause. And indeed, the significant increase in 'R' (actually 'Rt' is what's used mainly these days) will be down to the spikes in meat processing plants, while pretty much under control overall. It demonstrates the huge risk of transmission in such environments!
Happy to be shown otherwise; can't seem to find the 'formula' that was scattered around t'internet a little while ago.


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## GB72 (Jun 22, 2020)

Just to try and get this back to how the thread started, the personal feeling and impact of Covid rather than the political one. 

How I feel that the moment is irrational, incorrect and open to criticism but, at the moment, my mind is telling me I am being duped. I know I am not, I know that there is a real and present threat from this virus but mentally I feel like the Japanese soldier holding out in the Jungle after the end of world war 2, hiding from a threat that is not there. Not sure that I am explaining this well but, as I said, it is personal feelings and they are not easy to put across. There is no covid in my village, there is no covid where I work, I have seen a number of events brandished as the start of the second wave from VE day to Bank holidays to BLM protests but I cannot see any increase in the spread. As such, I am finding it harder and harder process the risk in my mind and to accept restrictions and regulations. Don't get me wrong, I still follow them (OK at our outside meet on Saturday there were 7 of us as one family brought their young son) but mentally accepting the level of risk that I should do is now proving somewhat difficult. Part of me just wants to shout loudly 'Just Everyone Get on with it and Get Back to Living'. 

As I said, not rational, not even a correct way of thinking but just thought I would get us back to the personal feelings rather than the political back and forth.


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## road2ruin (Jun 22, 2020)

GB72 said:



			.......I have seen a number of events brandished as the start of the second wave from VE day to Bank holidays to BLM protests but I cannot see any increase in the spread......
		
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Agree with this, assuming my dates are correct....

8-10th May - VE Day Celebrations 
23-25th May - Large Beach Gatherings
28th May - First large BLM gatherings in London

In each of these instances there was huge media interest with photos showing people milling around (VE Day) and hundreds/thousands of others in close proximity (beach/BLM) along with plenty of comments that in 2/3 weeks we'd be back in lockdown due to the ignorance of people not observing guidelines. As far as I am aware that has been little uptick in the number of cases to do with any of these events.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2020)

Mrs SILH is working from home for the first time in her life and not finding it easy.  A working life-long nurse she has only ever worked in close teams - being at home by herself communicating by Email and video conference is alien to her - and she misses the companionship of fellow team members. 

And then there is the IT. She will admit to having been almost IT-illiterate - other than a bit of MS Word and basic browser based searching and buying stuff - until she started her new job working in the office up by Tower Bridge.  Now working from home with her laptop desktop in front of her, and her work virtual desktop on another monitor...phew...it's difficult and she finds it very confusing and frustrating - and sometimes trying to sort things out so do I 

Quick question.  When I open a MS Teams invite in Outlook>Calendar on her Virtual Desktop - Teams does not find her laptop's microphone or camera. So that's no good.  If I open the same meeting invitation on OWA through the browser on her laptop then it's fine.


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## GB72 (Jun 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs SILH is working from home for the first time in her life and not finding it easy.  A working life-long nurse she has only ever worked in close teams - being at home by herself communicating by Email and video conference is alien to her - and she misses the companionship of fellow team members. 

And then there is the IT. She will admit to having been almost IT-illiterate - other than a bit of MS Word and basic browser based searching and buying stuff - until she started her new job working in the office up by Tower Bridge.  Now working from home with her laptop desktop in front of her, and her work virtual desktop on another monitor...phew...it's difficult and she finds it very confusing and frustrating - and sometimes trying to sort things out so do I 

Click to expand...

I had a different issue in that I just could not motivate myself when working from home. Something about that drive to work puts me in the right frame of mind. As I was free to choose (the fact that we produce wills allowed the office to stay open for those that wanted to come in) and I spent most days in the office irrespective. At the end of the day, I drive into the work car park, went to my office and sat in there for 8 hours working with no other contact so not a big risk.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I had a different issue in that I just could not motivate myself when working from home. Something about that drive to work puts me in the right frame of mind. As I was free to choose (the fact that we produce wills allowed the office to stay open for those that wanted to come in) and I spent most days in the office irrespective. At the end of the day, I drive into the work car park, went to my office and sat in there for 8 hours working with no other contact so not a big risk.
		
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Mrs SILH has said something similar.  She didn't mind getting up to catch the 6:58am train into Waterloo two days a week, and rather enjoyed the 1hr+ train journey in - listening to stuff on the radio or reading a novel...

All that gone at the moment.  And given the state of things it's possible they won't be asking her to travel in for the foreseeable future - if they ever actually do so.  As the team she is in is now all WFH - something they've been trying to sort for years - they might not revert to working in the office.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 22, 2020)

Working from home and Daisy popped into the study - left behind the stinkiest fluff ever and left...

Didn't have that in the office


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 22, 2020)

A very good day. Only 5 patients in ICU in total, no Covid and I got to move back to my old office. Signs perhaps that normality is returning..... at least for now


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2020)

P7 Granddaughter going back to school, Mon to Friday, 8.30 to 2.30pm from 11th Aug.


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## Captainron (Jun 23, 2020)

Not one person I know has contracted the virus. 

It’s had me off work for 3 months.

I’ve missed some fantastic golf trips.

Holiday to South Africa this year is cancelled.

Corona virus can flipping do one.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 23, 2020)

Looking like the clubhouse bar will be re-opening. Will be nice to have a beer with the PP's after a game


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## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Looking like the clubhouse bar will be re-opening. Will be nice to have a beer with the PP's after a game
		
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Ours has been open for a couple of weeks. Seniors and Wed night club bring their own chairs and gather around the 18th, and are socially distanced enjoying a couple of drinks and takeaway food.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2020)

Does anyone know how long it takes after being exposed to someone with the virus for you to return a positive test result if you've caught it? I'm about to go away for work and when I get back my plan is to self isolate away from the family for 14 days. I'm hoping that I can shorten this period by getting myself tested but don't want to arrange a test for the 2nd day after I'm home if it takes 3 or 4 days to show a positive test result.


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## yandabrown (Jun 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does anyone know how long it takes after being exposed to someone with the virus for you to return a positive test result if you've caught it? I'm about to go away for work and when I get back my plan is to self isolate away from the family for 14 days. I'm hoping that I can shorten this period by getting myself tested but don't want to arrange a test for the 2nd day after I'm home if it takes 3 or 4 days to show a positive test result.
		
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I've just had a test today as I have been coughing the last couple 
of days. Basically you need to have the test within 5 days of getting symptoms. More details here: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...-for-a-test-to-check-if-you-have-coronavirus/


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I've just had a test today as I have been coughing the last couple
of days. Basically you need to have the test within 5 days of getting symptoms. More details here: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...-for-a-test-to-check-if-you-have-coronavirus/

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply but I'll be looking to get myself tested while (hopefully) asymptomatic so that I can avoid the 14 days isolation when I get back from my job. I'm going to be working on a small survey vessel (zero chance of social distancing) and won't have any control on what the others in the crew are doing, or who they're mixing with, during their downtime. Fingers crossed they'll be sensible but as I can't control that I'll be taking every precaution that I can. My question was more that if I've been in contact with someone who is asymptomatic how long would it take to give a positive test result if I'd picked it up.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 23, 2020)

Incubation period can be up to 14 days so you'll need to isolate regardless I'd imagine


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Incubation period can be up to 14 days so you'll need to isolate regardless I'd imagine
		
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Cheers. We've got plans in place for me to isolate for the full 14 days if needed but was hoping that I could shorten that period with a negative test. Now just got to hope that the client will agree to pay me half day rate to isolate again like the last job so that I can get paid to sit in my caravan on the drive drinking brandy and playing on the PS4.


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## Old Skier (Jun 24, 2020)




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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2020)

Quite happy to drink for 3, just waiting on my local's opening plans.


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## Beezerk (Jun 24, 2020)

So what time is everyone starting to queue outside their local on the 4th? 🤣
Just a random thought, I wonder if they can open at midnight on the Friday night?


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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			So what time is everyone starting to queue outside their local on the 4th? 🤣
Just a random thought, I wonder if they can open at midnight on the Friday night?
		
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Reckon I will be in at 12.00. Need to try and get a haircut first. as the barbers open at 7, I am guessing I may be queuing form 6-6.30 to get in on Saturday


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## yandabrown (Jun 24, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I've just had a test today as I have been coughing the last couple 
of days. Basically you need to have the test within 5 days of getting symptoms. More details here: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...-for-a-test-to-check-if-you-have-coronavirus/

Click to expand...

Delighted to have got results back very quickly (email and text at 3 this morning having had the test at lunchtime yesterday) and more importantly that it was negative 😀
Sorry I couldn't help ColchesterFC but good luck with getting paid for drinking brandy and playing games 👍


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## Backache (Jun 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Cheers. We've got plans in place for me to isolate for the full 14 days if needed but was hoping that I could shorten that period with a negative test. Now just got to hope that the client will agree to pay me half day rate to isolate again like the last job so that I can get paid to sit in my caravan on the drive drinking brandy and playing on the PS4.
		
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You can't shorten the period with a negative test because a negative test cannot show that you are not still incubating the disease but are not yet shedding virus.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2020)

Backache said:



			You can't shorten the period with a negative test because a negative test cannot show that you are not still incubating the disease but are not yet shedding virus.
		
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Thanks for that, even though it's not what I wanted to hear.


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## Backache (Jun 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Thanks for that, even though it's not what I wanted to hear.
		
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Sorry about that looking at you original question though, how long are you on the survey boat for and how many are on it and is there any chance for any mixing away from the boat on landings etc?
If there are a limited number of people on it and everyone is away for over fourteen days and no one develops symptoms in those fourteen days you should be reasonably safe.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2020)

Backache said:



			Sorry about that looking at you original question though, how long are you on the survey boat for and how many are on it and is there any chance for any mixing away from the boat on landings etc?
If there are a limited number of people on it and everyone is away for over fourteen days and no one develops symptoms in those fourteen days you should be reasonably safe.
		
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It's a small boat so only about 6 of us on it but it's 12 hour operations only and staying ashore in the evening. Ill have my own apartment but the others are in a B+B so could be mixing with others.


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## Backache (Jun 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's a small boat so only about 6 of us on it but it's 12 hour operations only and staying ashore in the evening. Ill have my own apartment but the others are in a B+B so could be mixing with others.
		
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If you have someone at home who is high risk you could  be a risk to them if you don't quarantine for a fortnight then.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2020)

Backache said:



			If you have someone at home who is high risk you could  be a risk to them if you don't quarantine for a fortnight then.
		
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Yep, Mrs Colch has severe asthma so is high risk. Had to do 2 weeks in the caravan after my last job as we had 5 people on board who had the symptoms and the job ended up getting shut down. I'd been hoping that getting a test would mean I could reduce that but looks like I'll have to do the full two weeks. Just got to hope that weather has cooled down a bit by the time I get back or it could be quite unpleasant in a tin box in high temperatures.


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## Backache (Jun 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yep, Mrs Colch has severe asthma so is high risk. Had to do 2 weeks in the caravan after my last job as we had 5 people on board who had the symptoms and the job ended up getting shut down. I'd been hoping that getting a test would mean I could reduce that but looks like I'll have to do the full two weeks. Just got to hope that weather has cooled down a bit by the time I get back or it could be quite unpleasant in a tin box in high temperatures.
		
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Good luck with it, the absolute level of risk will depend on the local prevalence of Covid but if someone is shielding and quarantine is recommended I'm afraid it's 14 days.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2020)

Backache said:



			Good luck with it, the absolute level of risk will depend on the local prevalence of Covid but if someone is shielding and quarantine is recommended I'm afraid it's 14 days.
		
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Well aren't you a dark cloud on a sunny day. Or to put it another (Mod friendly) way, you've just urinated all over my chips. 

As it seems that there's no way to shorten it then I'll definitely be doing the two weeks quarantine in the caravan on the drive, because no matter how bad that might be it's still going to be far better than potentially taking a virus into the house that could kill Mrs Colch and two weeks of slight discomfort for me has got to be better than the long term guilt of the alternative.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2020)

Met up with my eldest daughter and granddaughter yesterday for the first time since March
Got a BJ themed fathers day card telling me in very confusing words what I can and can't do on fathers day. To late now.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

When in doubt, use the Religion card

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275854598146871296


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## IanM (Jun 25, 2020)

re the above.............when did the words "a" or "some" or "a tiny group" become lost to the CNNs and Fox's of the World? 

I am making my first trip over the border in to England for 3 months this afternoon and I am going to buy fuel!  Radical.


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## Imurg (Jun 25, 2020)

Today mark's 100 days since I last gave a driving lesson.......and we're still in the dark as to when we can resume.
I had 3 months off while I was training in 04 as I broke my ankle - couldn't wait to get back.
Now it's getting to the point where I'm not sure I care if I'm able to go back or not.......
It's  certainly going to be hard.


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## Slime (Jun 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Met up with my eldest daughter and granddaughter yesterday for the first time since March
*Got a BJ themed fathers day card telling me in very confusing words what I can and can't do on fathers day.* To late now.
		
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## Backache (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			When in doubt, use the Religion card

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1275854598146871296

Click to expand...

They all appear to be covering God's wonderful decor with clothes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

Feel sorry for the locals and the Emergency Services down there, I’d close the place for a few days!

https://twitter.com/i/events/1276080627218108418


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## Slab (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Feel sorry for the locals and the Emergency Services down there, I’d close the place for a few days!

https://twitter.com/i/events/1276080627218108418

Click to expand...

I've just had a look at the twitter feed, some of those pics are horrific under the circumstances


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## fundy (Jun 25, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Feel sorry for the locals and the Emergency Services down there, I’d close the place for a few days!

https://twitter.com/i/events/1276080627218108418

Click to expand...


its just as bad down here today too, tonights thunderstorms cant come soon enough!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jun 25, 2020)

fundy said:



			its just as bad down here today too, tonights thunderstorms cant come soon enough!
		
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I can't for the life of me understand why people would go to the beach knowing there's going to be thousands on it?

My idea of hell on earth.

Glad I live in the cold, wet and windy north, if we do get an odd warm day you know you pop along to the beach with about 20 others in a several mile section.

 Everybody heads for the lakes and ignore some nice stretches of coastline.


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## fundy (Jun 25, 2020)

saving_par said:



			I can't for the life of me understand why people would go to the beach knowing there's going to be thousands on it?

My idea of hell on earth.

Glad I live in the cold, wet and windy north, if we do get an odd warm day you know you pop along to the beach with about 20 others in a several mile section.

Everybody heads for the lakes and ignore some nice stretches of coastline.
		
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we live less than half a mile from it but steer clear on days like this, if we go it will be in the evening at sunset when the majority have gone home but during the day we go up to the new forest


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2020)

Slime said:





Click to expand...

Oops       forgot what Johnson was known as by some of his supporters.


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## fundy (Jun 25, 2020)

Bournemouth council declared a "major incident"

https://www.bcpcouncil.gov.uk/News/...utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_content=COVID19


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## spongebob59 (Jun 25, 2020)

Local news was.reporting 16000 on camber sands beaches yesterday and despite warnings about swimming people were still going in.

I hope it's rains on the 4th.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 25, 2020)

Slab said:



			I've just had a look at the twitter feed, some of those pics are horrific under the circumstances  

Click to expand...

The bike chained to the Fire access road tells you the mentality of these people.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 25, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276152218819989508


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## DRW (Jun 25, 2020)

wheres wally


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## BrianM (Jun 25, 2020)

If these idiots on the beach had brains they’d be dangerous, unbelievable.


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## Imurg (Jun 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Today mark's 100 days since I last gave a driving lesson.......and we're still in the dark as to when we can resume.
I had 3 months off while I was training in 04 as I broke my ankle - couldn't wait to get back.
Now it's getting to the point where I'm not sure I care if I'm able to go back or not.......
It's  certainly going to be hard.
		
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Well, it seems Rees-Mogg has told the world that lessons can resume from 4th July...........I didnt see/hear it and I find out when I get parents calling to book lessons...
Could have gone in the RI thread - would have been nice to find out im going back to work before everyone else but beggars can't etc etc.....
Got a busy afternoon ahead.....the diary needs Lazarus-Like attention..


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## GB72 (Jun 25, 2020)

I agree that the beach situation is not good (understatement) but I am also going to be controversial and attribute some of the blame to the local authority. Hottest day of the year, people on furlough who are coming to the end of weeks in lockdown, kids off school for many, end of Jun and people have not had their annual trip abroad and are unlikely to now, you do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to work out that this was going to result in a significant number of people heading to beaches. Surely there has been some planning between the police, local authority and other agencies to address how this would be dealt with, including turning people away before they got to the beach. It is not as if this the first time that this has happened over recent weeks. 

The expectation appears to be that everyone who has traveled there should look at the number of people, turn round and head home which, whilst I am sure that many of us will profess that this is exactly what we would do, is not realistic. Surely the simpler solution is to be turning people away before the numbers got so big. So, I am attributing the blame equally between the idiot minority and the local authority.


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## GB72 (Jun 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Well, it seems Rees-Mogg has told the world that lessons can resume from 4th July...........I didnt see/hear it and I find out when I get parents calling to book lessons...
Could have gone in the RI thread - would have been nice to find out im going back to work before everyone else but beggars can't etc etc.....
Got a busy afternoon ahead.....the diary needs Lazarus-Like attention..
		
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It is on the BBC news live feed now. Apparently DVLA writing to instructors today with update and guidelines for 4th July start.


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## Imurg (Jun 25, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is on the BBC news live feed now. Apparently DVLA writing to instructors today with update and guidelines for 4th July start.
		
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You'd have thought they'd have had it already written so it could be sent moments after JRM made the announcement.
2 hours gone and nothing......real professional outfit the DVSA
My phone's melting.....and weve got 3 months worth of newbies that want to start....


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## fundy (Jun 25, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I agree that the beach situation is not good (understatement) but I am also going to be controversial and attribute some of the blame to the local authority. Hottest day of the year, people on furlough who are coming to the end of weeks in lockdown, kids off school for many, end of Jun and people have not had their annual trip abroad and are unlikely to now, you do not have to be Sherlock Holmes to work out that this was going to result in a significant number of people heading to beaches. Surely there has been some planning between the police, local authority and other agencies to address how this would be dealt with, including turning people away before they got to the beach. It is not as if this the first time that this has happened over recent weeks.

The expectation appears to be that everyone who has traveled there should look at the number of people, turn round and head home which, whilst I am sure that many of us will profess that this is exactly what we would do, is not realistic. Surely the simpler solution is to be turning people away before the numbers got so big. So, I am attributing the blame equally between the idiot minority and the local authority.
		
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Lots of planning and local communication from an underfunded local council down here who are ultimately utterly powerless since the government opened the country and declared a free for all. The local council do not have the power to turn cars away ever since the government took off restriction on how far you can travel. What basis would they be stopping people and turning them away?

Not to mention the same local coalition council having to waste time to fight off a vote of no confidence from the local tory party as the coalition lost their majority when a local councillor died of coronavirus.

Doesnt help its a newly formed council of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole that the latter 2 wanted to remain separate from and there are lots of conflicting agendas, not to mention several noses out of joint

Have just driven past the front here, car parks are full and roads down to them barriered off and traffic being stopped. All it is resulting in is people dumping cars anywhere and everywhere. Traffic wardens are out ticketing too. What else can the council do?


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## GB72 (Jun 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			You'd have thought they'd have had it already written so it could be sent moments after JRM made the announcement.
2 hours gone and nothing......real professional outfit the DVSA
My phone's melting.....and weve got 3 months worth of newbies that want to start....
		
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Guessing that it will probably be coming by post not email if the governing bodies I deal with are anything to go by. Ironically, lockdown would have been the perfect time to have started with the newbies as the roads would have been empty.


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## Imurg (Jun 25, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Guessing that it will probably be coming by post not email if the governing bodies I deal with are anything to go by. Ironically, lockdown would have been the perfect time to have started with the newbies as the roads would have been empty.
		
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You're not wrong....
Cant start planning things until I know what I need to do between lessons and during......need communication soon...


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## Slab (Jun 26, 2020)

This is covid related but it doesn't affect me, neither does it belong in the political covid thread but we don't have a covid thread of shame:

Those rioting in Brixton can easily be given the tag irresponsible (& most I’m sure would say it’s an understatement)
The thousands of football fans celebrating together last night are also irresponsible
The tens of thousands packed on dozens of beaches get that tag too

All in the last 24 hours

(I make no comparison between these three very different groups other than the obvious mass gatherings/breaches of social distancing etc)

But what an absolute kick in the teeth to everyone lost prematurely, everyone that tried to save those that died, friends and relatives that lost someone and (regardless of your allegiance) a kick to the politicians that tried their best to govern those people through the pandemic and lastly a kick to all those people that wanted to go to the beach and didn't, that wanted to party but didn't, that wanted to celebrate with fellow fans but didn't

Maybe these are the same ‘people’ from the quoted 6 million in Britain that didn’t comply & broke the rules during the more stringent lockdown phase & maybe we cannot expect anything better from them, maybe some of them even had the nerve to clap for the NHS, to donate to Captain Tom, maybe they’ve spent weeks where they've done little but whine and moan about xyz politician or this or that restriction

There can be little said to defend their behaviour in gathering together because unlike the recent marches/demonstrations or breaches of lockdown by individuals driven by care or compassion. These appalling scenes were all derived from an intent for self gratification and indulgence     

Shame on them


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## Old Skier (Jun 26, 2020)




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## Fish (Jun 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			You'd have thought they'd have had it already written so it could be sent moments after JRM made the announcement.
2 hours gone and nothing......real professional outfit the DVSA
My phone's melting.....and weve got 3 months worth of newbies that want to start....
		
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I'm seeing loads of lessons being taken in branded learner vehicles all over the country, and especially in and around London.


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## Fish (Jun 26, 2020)

I can't find anywhere in the lounge to post this, so if its in the wrong place, tough!

So, England Golf new guidelines email received, and its great news for clubhouses opening on July 4th, so we can now access the bar and restaurant, BUT, the changing rooms can't open, who thought that one up?

Now I don't know about you, but when naked with other naked people around me, I'm not too keen on getting that close anyway

Will clubs be supplying free deodorant so we can breathe in the bar


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## drdel (Jun 26, 2020)

The Bournemouth issue is terrible. However if a family caught a bus, train or drove to the beach to give their kids etc a break they wouldnot have known that 10,000 other were doing the same.

That is different from protests, raves  etc organised to bring large numbers of people together.


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## fundy (Jun 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			The Bournemouth issue is terrible. However if a family caught a bus, train or drove to the beach to give their kids etc a break they wouldnot have known that 10,000 other were doing the same.

That is different from protests, raves  etc organised to bring large numbers of people together.
		
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Train maybe, on the others theyd have been pretty aware based on the traffic levels miles and miles before they got close to the beaches. Do they turn around? no of course not they sit in traffic then dump there 4x4 wherever they want because the car parks are full not even bothered if they are blocking peoples property/restricting access for emergency vehicles and happy to pay the parking fine as its not enough of a deterrent to the me me me generation


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## pendodave (Jun 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			I can't find anywhere in the lounge to post this, so if its in the wrong place, tough!

So, England Golf new guidelines email received, and its great news for clubhouses opening on July 4th, so we can now access the bar and restaurant, BUT, the changing rooms can't open, who thought that one up?

Now I don't know about you, but when naked with other naked people around me, I'm not too keen on getting that close anyway

Will clubs be supplying free deodorant so we can breathe in the bar 

Click to expand...

Likewise re close contact in the shower. I really miss a wash after golf. 
Maybe the public schoolboys writing these rules have a rather different experience of soapy encounters...


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## huds1475 (Jun 26, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Likewise re close contact in the shower. I really miss a wash after golf.
		
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Were you at Harrow old chap?


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## USER1999 (Jun 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			Train maybe, on the others theyd have been pretty aware based on the traffic levels miles and miles before they got close to the beaches. Do they turn around? no of course not they sit in traffic then dump there 4x4 wherever they want because the car parks are full not even bothered if they are blocking peoples property/restricting access for emergency vehicles and happy to pay the parking fine as its not enough of a deterrent to the me me me generation
		
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Apparently they have had to close the parking barrier to the entrance to my flat, as people have been parking in the private car park to go to the beach, leaving residents with nowhere to park. Thanks idiots. I don't park in your driveway.


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## Imurg (Jun 26, 2020)

Fish said:



			I'm seeing loads of lessons being taken in branded learner vehicles all over the country, and especially in and around London.
		
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I know that some instructors are breaking the lockdown....seems to be some confusion as to whether their insurance is valid..if notmthen they're risking a lot.
There's been plenty of "key workers" going out as they're allowed to.
Lots of anger on social media about us going back and having to break the 1m rule..in a pub garden you have to keep your 1 m distance or keep interactions down to 15 minutes but it's fine to sit 6 inches away from someone for an hour or two in an enclosed steel box......even wearing coverings and gloves.....Yeah Right......


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			The Bournemouth issue is terrible. However if a family caught a bus, train or drove to the beach to give their kids etc a break they wouldnot have known that 10,000 other were doing the same.

That is different from protests, raves  etc organised to bring large numbers of people together.
		
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I live in Northumberland, have lived in the north of England all of my life but even I know that half of the south of England descends on Bournemouth when the weather is good. When it is has been as hot as it has been you would have to be pretty clueless to think Bournemouth would be anything other than rammed yesterday. No one there yesterday has a get out of jail card using that excuse. 

Funniest moment on the J.Vine show today on the radio. A Bournemouth resident, on the beach, complaining about everyone else being on the beach making it so busy. He was like the slow golfer who thinks everyone else is causing slow play, never him/her. Even Jeremy found the irony meter twitching at that one.


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## huds1475 (Jun 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Funniest moment on the J.Vine show today on the radio. A Bournemouth resident, on the beach, complaining about everyone else being on the beach making it so busy. He was like the slow golfer who thinks everyone else is causing slow play, never him/her
		
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Heard the clip, very funny


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## huds1475 (Jun 26, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Apparently they have had to close the parking barrier to the entrance to my flat, as people have been parking in the private car park to go to the beach, leaving residents with nowhere to park. Thanks idiots. I don't park in your driveway.
		
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Must be terrible for you.

Some of those "idiots" may not have a driveway, or even a garden.

Not that I'm condoning their behaviour.


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## fundy (Jun 26, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Must be terrible for you.

Some of those "idiots" may not have a driveway, or even a garden.

Not that I'm condoning their behaviour.
		
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well you are clearly part excusing it on the basis they may or may not have a drive or garden. even if they dont, why does that give them the right to park on someone elses private property to go to the beach?

based on most of the vehicles that are parked where they shouldnt be round here, expect very few of them dont have a drive for their 4x4 or a garden!


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## USER1999 (Jun 26, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Must be terrible for you.

Some of those "idiots" may not have a driveway, or even a garden.

Not that I'm condoning their behaviour.
		
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While you are out, can I come and sit in your lounge, watch your telly? May be I could have a quick kip in your bed while I am at it.


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## jim8flog (Jun 28, 2020)

This morning whilst cutting my own hair for about the 4th time since lock down I am wondering if my hairdresser has lost a customer. (and I do not just cut to a number 2).


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## jim8flog (Jun 28, 2020)

Fish said:



			I can't find anywhere in the lounge to post this, so if its in the wrong place, tough!

So, England Golf new guidelines email received, and its great news for clubhouses opening on July 4th, so we can now access the bar and restaurant, BUT, the changing rooms can't open, who thought that one up?

Now I don't know about you, but when naked with other naked people around me, I'm not too keen on getting that close anyway

Will clubs be supplying free deodorant so we can breathe in the bar 

Click to expand...

Yes I noticed that one and wondered about it.  Question to the Captain and the reply came it is because of the toilet facilities. The requirement is that toilets have to be cleaned every hour to remain available for use.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			This morning whilst cutting my own hair for about the 4th time since lock down I am wondering if my hairdresser has lost a customer. (and I do not just cut to a number 2).
		
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My wife has made this comment specifically about women and hair colouring. Having done their own through lockdown how many will go back to paying the significant amount extra to get it done in a salon? It's a great earner for hairdressers, it could hit them.


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## jim8flog (Jun 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My wife has made this comment specifically about women and hair colouring. Having done their own through lockdown how many will go back to paying the significant amount extra to get it done in a salon? It's a great earner for hairdressers, it could hit them.
		
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 My daughter doing her colouring own at home cost me a new bath and new flooring when she finally moved out.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			My daughter doing her colouring own at home cost me a new bath and new flooring when she finally moved out.
		
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Ouch 😱


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yes I noticed that one and wondered about it.  Question to the Captain and the reply came it is because of the toilet facilities. The requirement is that toilets have to be cleaned every hour to remain available for use.
		
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Because I don't drive, I arranged dispensation with the club to store my clubs at the club and arrange access to the locker room when I arrived. Has been working really well and both the club and I have been very happy. Been told the same today and that I won't be able to go to the locker room at all - it'll be locked totally once the bar opens but they are arranging to store my clubs somewhere else in the clubhouse - probably the GM's office. Bit of a ball ache but I totally get the reasoning and just thankful the club has been so accommodating during reopening to let me get up to the club midweek, get my stuff and play/practice


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## backwoodsman (Jun 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yes I noticed that one and wondered about it.  Question to the Captain and the reply came it is because of the toilet facilities. *The requirement is that toilets have to be cleaned every hour to remain available for us*e.
		
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Not sure where he got that one from?

It's not in any guidance I've seen.  Even the current DCMS guidance only says that operators should be "_Setting clear use and cleaning guidance for toilets to ensure they are kept clean and social distancing is achieved"  _and England Golf are using the same words


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## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2020)

I'm struggling with this now. The British countries leaders are all saying different things about what is allowed at different times, yet when people break these "rules" they do sod all about it. (Raves / Beaches / League winning celebrations). Just exactly why are they all bothering to give us rules about what to do if they do not enforce them? I'm done with it all. I'm currently working in a supermarket and they are now letting bluddy big famillies in together with kids running all over the place so have now decided to just do what ever I want to do as most others are anyway. Those people I'm in contact with know the signs to watch out for, so if they have them they will let me know. No problem.

I suggest those of you that can, do the same. Stuff it.


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## Crazyface (Jun 29, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Not sure where he got that one from?

It's not in any guidance I've seen.  Even the current DCMS guidance only says that operators should be "_Setting clear use and cleaning guidance for toilets to ensure they are kept clean and social distancing is achieved"  _and England Golf are using the same words
		
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How are work toilets being cleaned and sanitized? After each use? Nah they aren't. So why should pubs/ clubs/ golf cluhouses do any different?


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## jim8flog (Jun 29, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Not sure where he got that one from?

It's not in any guidance I've seen.  Even the current DCMS guidance only says that operators should be "_Setting clear use and cleaning guidance for toilets to ensure they are kept clean and social distancing is achieved"  _and England Golf are using the same words
		
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 Some else said the same a on another thread. Maybe club managers are being sent a fuller brief than us.

I certainly saw on the last brief from England golf about the opening of lounges - "Locker rooms to remain closed" or words to that effect.


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## backwoodsman (Jun 30, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Some else said the same a on another thread. Maybe club managers are being sent a fuller brief than us.

I certainly saw on the last brief from England golf about the opening of lounges - "Locker rooms to remain closed" or words to that effect.
		
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Yes, I realise that locker rooms are closed under the guidance of England Golf - but under that same guidance they specifically mention that toilets can be open. Their advice is the same as that given by Dept for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport - in that (& I paraphrase)  there has to be clear guidance on use, and on cleaning regimes, to make sure they are, and stay,  clean. There isnt any prescribed  regime set out in the guidance (eg every hour or whatever) - just the requirement that there is a suitable reqime in place.  At our place, the locker rooms are closed but toilets are open - they're cleaned regularly but not hourly. Club manager has shared with me the guidance he's following regarding toilets (& clubhouse generally) and we're content we're operating within the guidance.  Hence me wondering from where your Captain (or his source) got the 1hour interval from - in case we"re missing something.


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## Slab (Jun 30, 2020)

When the clubs here first reopened the locker rooms/toilets were cleaned/sanitized after every use with only limited showers, basins, toilets etc in use to make it more practical & a max of 2 people in a locker room at any one time. Two staff on through the day looking after those areas at the local club


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## Slab (Jun 30, 2020)

First comp last weekend, shotgun start and lots of handshakes and hugs going on before during and after. Full bar open & seating for 80 at the post-round lunch. Back to sharing buggy’s again but still not touching the flag & no rakes. Only possible because there hasn’t been any ‘home-grown’ positive tests in the past 63 days

It almost felt 'normal' although the thought I couldn’t shake was, it’s great that its gone for now… but it will be back


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## Slime (Jun 30, 2020)

Slab said:



			First comp last weekend, shotgun start and lots of handshakes and hugs going on before during and after. Full bar open & seating for 80 at the post-round lunch. Back to sharing buggy’s again but still not touching the flag & no rakes. Only possible because there hasn’t been any ‘home-grown’ positive tests in the past 63 days

It almost felt 'normal' although the thought I couldn’t shake was, it’s great that its gone for now… but it will be back 

Click to expand...

No rakes or touching the flags, but handshakes, hugs, full bar and seating for 80.
Doesn't make sense to me, mate.


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## Slab (Jun 30, 2020)

Slime said:



			No rakes or touching the flags, but handshakes, hugs, full bar and seating for 80.
Doesn't make sense to me, mate.
		
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Me neither, i guess the the flag/rake rules are club local rules still in place while the rest are just Gov rules & have been (unofficially) kinda shoved to the side until the airport reopens


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## jim8flog (Jun 30, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Yes, I realise that locker rooms are closed under the guidance of England Golf - but under that same guidance they specifically mention that toilets can be open. Their advice is the same as that given by Dept for Digital, Culture, Media & Sport - in that (& I paraphrase)  there has to be clear guidance on use, and on cleaning regimes, to make sure they are, and stay,  clean. There isnt any prescribed  regime set out in the guidance (eg every hour or whatever) - just the requirement that there is a suitable reqime in place.  At our place, the locker rooms are closed but toilets are open - they're cleaned regularly but not hourly. Club manager has shared with me the guidance he's following regarding toilets (& clubhouse generally) and we're content we're operating within the guidance.  Hence me wondering from where your Captain (or his source) got the 1hour interval from - in case we"re missing something.
		
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 We have toilet facilities that are not in the locker room adjacent to the bar area.

 There are some areas of running the club that I totally leave to those in charge and cannot be bothered to try to sort out with them. It is after all what we pay the manager to do.


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## BrianM (Jun 30, 2020)

Lost my job today, first time I’ve been unemployed in 23 years, still a bitter blow.


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## chrisd (Jun 30, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Lost my job today, first time I’ve been unemployed in 23 years, still a bitter blow.
		
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Sorry to read that, let's hope you sort something out quickly


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## IainP (Jun 30, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Lost my job today, first time I’ve been unemployed in 23 years, still a bitter blow.
		
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Oh no. Were you on furlough?


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## AmandaJR (Jun 30, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Lost my job today, first time I’ve been unemployed in 23 years, still a bitter blow.
		
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Sorry to hear that. I'm facing my 2nd redundancy and recall the first one which was awful. I'd never been out of work plus we all left without proper goodbyes etc.

Hopefully you'll get sorted soon.


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## drdel (Jun 30, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Lost my job today, first time I’ve been unemployed in 23 years, still a bitter blow.
		
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Good luck. (More golf time ).


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 30, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Lost my job today, first time I’ve been unemployed in 23 years, still a bitter blow.
		
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Sorry to hear that. What do you do and is there anything in the pipeline


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## BrianM (Jul 1, 2020)

IainP said:



			Oh no. Were you on furlough?
		
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I was on Furlough last month, then back on full pay for redundancy process.
I was fully expecting to be kept on, there must of been a change of heart......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 1, 2020)

The guidelines for reopening churches (and that will no doubt apply to other places where people gather) are ‘demanding’ and restrictive - and so we are doing a quick poll round members to gauge how many would come to church to take part in worship as the rules allow - especially as so many are over 70.  As we cannot sing our praises; fellowship is not possible; communion looks tricky, and numbers have to limited - I’m thinking we might not reopen for communal worship for some months.  Rules also make opening our rooms and halls up to hirers pretty uneconomic if not almost impractical for both ourselves and the hirer.  Anyway. Them’s the rules.

We are however going to have a go at opening our cafe.


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## bobmac (Jul 1, 2020)

I am fortunate that I don't have to go to work, so I will not be going to the pub when it opens, I will not be having my haircut next week and I will not be going to the beach if the sun comes out.
I don't care what stuff is posted in the media, as far as I am concerned, the virus is still out there and if staying at home reduces the chance of me catching the virus then stay at home I shall.


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## drdel (Jul 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I am fortunate that I don't have to go to work, so I will not be going to the pub when it opens, I will not be having my haircut next week and I will not be going to the beach if the sun comes out.
I don't care what stuff is posted in the media, as far as I am concerned, the virus is still out there and if staying at home reduces the chance of me catching the virus then stay at home I shall.
		
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You do realise that using common sense is not fashionable. We all need everything on a plate so we always have someone else to blame. 👍


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## bobmac (Jul 1, 2020)

drdel said:



			You do realise that using common sense is not fashionable. We all need everything on a plate so we always have someone else to blame. 👍
		
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I've never understood fashion.
Pay an extra £7 to have ripped jeans so you dont have to  





Boozey neighbour... I'm going to the pub on Saturday
Friend....You don't have to go 
Bn...but *I can* go so I will
Fd...but you don't have to go 
Bn...but *I can* go so I will
Fd...*you can* jump off the roof of your house if you want to
Boozey neighbour thinks......................... I'm going to the pub on Saturday.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The guidelines for reopening churches (and that will no doubt apply to other places where people gather) are ‘demanding’ and restrictive - and so we are doing a quick poll round members to gauge how many would come to church to take part in worship as the rules allow - especially as so many are over 70.  As we cannot sing our praises; fellowship is not possible; communion looks tricky, and numbers have to limited - I’m thinking we might not reopen for communal worship for some months.  Rules also make opening our rooms and halls up to hirers pretty uneconomic if not almost impractical for both ourselves and the hirer.  Anyway. Them’s the rules.

We are however going to have a go at opening our cafe.
		
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I was speaking to my friend and neighbour the Minister a month ago. He was a bit glum with what was happening so I'm gave him my business plan for the village church.

There is a small field adjacent to the manse, get a mower and mow circles 2m apart for social distancing.
Get a large soap box and borrow a PA system, get the half dozen or so village guitarists to accompany the singers/choir.
Collection payment would be by pre payed Pay Pal.
Basically go back to the Wee Frees.
This seemed to cheer him up quite a bit but then he said 'what do we do if it rains.'


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## drdel (Jul 1, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was speaking to my friend and neighbour the Minister a month ago. He was a bit glum with what was happening so I'm gave him my business plan for the village church.

There is a small field adjacent to the manse, get a mower and mow circles 2m apart for social distancing.
Get a large soap box and borrow a PA system, get the half dozen or so village guitarists to accompany the singers/choir.
Collection payment would be by pre payed Pay Pal.
Basically go back to the Wee Frees.
This seemed to cheer him up quite a bit but then he said 'what do we do if it rains.'

Click to expand...

I hear the Sun shines on the good!


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## Hobbit (Jul 1, 2020)

Over 20 outbreaks in Spain in the last week, 11 of which are concerning the authorities. 4 regions knocked back 2 phases into lockdown.

We have a small outbreak in the village - just received an email from the mayor. 

A good friend from the bowls club is in ICU in Almeria very, very poorly... half a dozen people were out with him and his wife on Friday - people are, metaphorically, looking over their shoulder.


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## IainP (Jul 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			You're not wrong....
Cant start planning things until I know what I need to do between lessons and during......need communication soon...
		
Click to expand...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I am fortunate that I don't have to go to work, so I will not be going to the pub when it opens, I will not be having my haircut next week and I will not be going to the beach if the sun comes out.
I don't care what stuff is posted in the media, as far as I am concerned, the virus is still out there and if staying at home reduces the chance of me catching the virus then stay at home I shall.
		
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It's not a bad attitude to have. I am only working, coming home on the train/bus (which is making me more and more nervous) and going to the practice ground once a week and playing at weekends. I am in two minds about stopping for a beer in the clubhouse at the weekend. In normal circumstances I'd definitely be there for three or four but despite the best intent of the club and bar staff I'm concerned about how safe it'll be


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I know that some instructors are breaking the lockdown....seems to be some confusion as to whether their insurance is valid..if notmthen they're risking a lot.
There's been plenty of "key workers" going out as they're allowed to.
Lots of anger on social media about us going back and having to break the 1m rule..in a pub garden you have to keep your 1 m distance or keep interactions down to 15 minutes but it's fine to sit 6 inches away from someone for an hour or two in an enclosed steel box......even wearing coverings and gloves.....Yeah Right......

Click to expand...

I saw a lesson being given this morning, no question. The car was fully emblazoned, L triangle on the top. The learner driver had a mask and gloves on. There was certainly no attempt to go under the radar.


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## Imurg (Jul 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I saw a lesson being given this morning, no question. The car was fully emblazoned, L triangle on the top. The learner driver had a mask and gloves on. There was certainly no attempt to go under the radar.
		
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We're still officially not going back until Saturday but I've seen a few out already.
Still no guidance from the powers that be as to safety protocols, what we can and can't do..the announcement was almost a week ago.
1 thing they are saying is that windows have to be open to provide adequate ventilation...ok, what happens when it rains..?
Windows up and all of a sudden you're in an enclosed tin box with a teenager who could be asymptomatic...so looking forward to going back to work....


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			We're still officially not going back until Saturday but I've seen a few out already.
Still no guidance from the powers that be as to safety protocols, what we can and can't do..the announcement was almost a week ago.
1 thing they are saying is that windows have to be open to provide adequate ventilation...ok, what happens when it rains..?
Windows up and all of a sudden you're in an enclosed tin box with a teenager who could be asymptomatic...so looking forward to going back to work....

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The driver was coming off a dual carriageway and onto a roundabout, it was also raining. The window was definitely up. To have it down would have been noisy, wet and unpleasant as well as distracting.


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## Imurg (Jul 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The driver was coming off a dual carriageway and onto a roundabout, it was also raining. The window was definitely up. To have it down would have been noisy, wet and unpleasant as well as distracting.
		
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That's another issue. Add in a face covering, which looks to be on the cards, and communication at anything over 40 is nigh on impossible..
Looks like the common sense stuff of sanitizing the car between lessons and taking temperature before seem to be coming in but we're  guessing.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			That's another issue. Add in a face covering, which looks to be on the cards, and communication at anything over 40 is nigh on impossible..
Looks like the common sense stuff of sanitizing the car between lessons and taking temperature before seem to be coming in but we're  guessing.
		
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Do you have a National Assotiation or Professional body  that would find out the details for you.


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## Imurg (Jul 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have a National Assotiation or Professional body  that would find out the details for you.
		
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The DVSA have, apparently,  told them (NASP - National Associations Strategic Partnership) and they're working out what it means to us...
Might get something tomorrow but I'm not holding my breath. 
DVSA have been utterly useless throughout this mess, giving no information or saying it's due shortly - and then we have to wait a week or 2 for it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 1, 2020)

Imurg

Don't mean this in a disparaging way, but given the Covid fiasco etc have you considered other career paths?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was speaking to my friend and neighbour the Minister a month ago. He was a bit glum with what was happening so I'm gave him my business plan for the village church.

There is a small field adjacent to the manse, get a mower and mow circles 2m apart for social distancing.
Get a large soap box and borrow a PA system, get the half dozen or so village guitarists to accompany the singers/choir.
Collection payment would be by pre payed Pay Pal.
Basically go back to the Wee Frees.
This seemed to cheer him up quite a bit but then he said 'what do we do if it rains.'

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In SW Scotland that would be a throwback to Covenanter days - though they wouldn’t be singing 👍😊


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## Imurg (Jul 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Imurg

Don't mean this in a disparaging way, but given the Covid fiasco etc have you considered other career paths?
		
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It's getting more tempting by the hour.
Found out this morning that nobody will be allowed inside test centres "to enforce SD requirements", tests will be cut short once a major(fail) fault is made - "to minimise time in the car" and yet they're happy for ADIs to sit 6 inches from someone for 2 hours.....we have to have windows open so if it rains we either drown or put the wi does up and potentially get Covid....
Biggest drawback is that it's not the best of times to be loo,jng for another job.........but, Boy, is it getting closer.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2020)

Just had a conversation with our lad.  Very down, very upset and very angry.  Just off a conference call with his management and HR - and his job in the nightclub and events company he worked for has gone - and not just his job, but the whole tier of local management he was in - all gone right across the company.  As a result he and his now redundant colleagues across the UK (many with a lot more experience than he has) view is that their career in that business sector has basically gone for good.

And the unfortunate fact is that their skills and experience were not simply in the business they were employed by - but in that sector.  Those in the same role in other similar companies who are fortunate to keep their job (though it is doubtful many will) will develop the experience needed for the next step up the ladder. But he can't see how he'll be able to get that experience - so that's pretty much that.  Hopes dreams and ambitions down the plug-hole.

Tell him to just accept the situation and go looking for another career? - and you will get a swift rebuke if not a punch in the face...

As he said - I'm 28 - for the last 6 years I've been building experience towards the next step in my career and was there ready to make it - when bang - the whole thing collapses around my feet in rubble. I was supposed to be entering the period of highest earning potential and now I am told I must start again at the beginning of whatever new career path I must now follow - me and the hundreds of thousands of new graduates and others who have found their lives completely turned upside down.

Anyway - looks like he'll be looking into barbering or teaching assistant.

So very sad for so very many...


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## jim8flog (Jul 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I saw a lesson being given this morning, no question. The car was fully emblazoned, L triangle on the top. The learner driver had a mask and gloves on. There was certainly no attempt to go under the radar.
		
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Speeding and not worried about facial recognition software?


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## jim8flog (Jul 7, 2020)

During lock down I got in a fair amount of walking. I did something for the first time for a few years today - 9 holes walking the course!!  Normally I just about manage 6 or 7 before my legs give up.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2020)

Our local A+E shutdown due to an outbreak... Herself has an outpatient appointment at same hospital for next week... Can see that being cancelled... Again ...


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2020)

Can't say I will be taking up the chancellors offer of a cheap meal out come August...


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't say I will be taking up the chancellors offer of a cheap meal out come August...
		
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I will, anything to ensure that my local is still up and running when this is over. May not be great going there for a beer at the moment but more than happy to go for a meal once a week with 50% off plus more benefits due to the lower VAT.


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## IanM (Jul 8, 2020)

I've been told I have to attend a  two day workshop in a hotel next week.  Programme Kick-off session with drinks and dinner in the evening!  (presumably under approved regs)

I said, that I am attending the work bit under (gentle) protest but refused to attend drinks, dinner or stay over night in the hotel.   Getting some right ear ache over it too.  Whole dam thing could have been done over Teams, so no need to be there at all.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I will, anything to ensure that my local is still up and running when this is over. May not be great going there for a beer at the moment but more than happy to go for a meal once a week with 50% off plus more benefits due to the lower VAT.
		
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I am still a bit reserved about spending too much time in an enclosed environment with 'strangers'... If the weather perked up and I could book a table in an outside environment I'd probably be a bit more disposed to go for it... I've shifted sufficient poundage that I feel I am probably deserving of a blow out!


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## GB72 (Jul 8, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am still a bit reserved about spending too much time in an enclosed environment with 'strangers'... If the weather perked up and I could book a table in an outside environment I'd probably be a bit more disposed to go for it... I've shifted sufficient poundage that I feel I am probably deserving of a blow out!
		
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Guess it is all down to circumstances. Mine is a small village pub where I know pretty much everyone and I do feel relaxed. Outside of that environment, I would not be so sure and may be more like you


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2020)

Two regions in Spain have now mandated the use of masks in public, irrespective of the previous social distancing criteria.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Guess it is all down to circumstances. Mine is a small village pub where I know pretty much everyone and I do feel relaxed. Outside of that environment, I would not be so sure and may be more like you
		
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I used the clubhouse for a drink last night. Feel confident the staff are compliant and diligent with their H&S and more confident that I know the people I'm sharing space with, having played golf with a few of them recently. Not sure even using the small country pub we use I'd feel overly comfy not knowing everyone in there.


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## IainP (Jul 8, 2020)

IanM said:



			I've been told I have to attend a  two day workshop in a hotel next week.  Programme Kick-off session with drinks and dinner in the evening!  (presumably under approved regs)

I said, that I am attending the work bit under (gentle) protest but refused to attend drinks, dinner or stay over night in the hotel.   Getting some right ear ache over it too.  Whole dam thing could have been done over Teams, so no need to be there at all.
		
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Can imagine many similar scenarios to this in the coming months.


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## Slab (Jul 9, 2020)

Its over 2 months now since BA cancelled my flights and if you want refunded they still cant answer the phone or make any acknowledgement or reply to mail (they'll happily engage if you want to re-book/take vouchers, they even set that up online)

Pretty bad for the national carrier & the poor service proves it is the right choice not to defer a booking


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2020)

Slab said:



			Its over 2 months now since BA cancelled my flights and if you want refunded they still cant answer the phone or make any acknowledgement or reply to mail (they'll happily engage if you want to re-book/take vouchers, they even set that up online)

Pretty bad for the national carrier & the poor service proves it is the right choice not to defer a booking
		
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KLM cancelled our flights, thankfully, about a month ago. We also asked for a refund but have yet to receive it. Airbnb refunded us within days of agreeing to, but it seems the airlines are dragging their feet in comparison. I am confident that we will get our money back, as will you, but it is disappointing that it is taking them so long.


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## road2ruin (Jul 9, 2020)

Slab said:



			Its over 2 months now since BA cancelled my flights and if you want refunded they still cant answer the phone or make any acknowledgement or reply to mail (they'll happily engage if you want to re-book/take vouchers, they even set that up online)

Pretty bad for the national carrier & the poor service proves it is the right choice not to defer a booking
		
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I've had this with a number of companies over the last 10 weeks. Ordered a bike from Wiggle, very attentive to all my queries in the run up to ordering but once they had my money I had barely any response for 6 weeks. They were very active on social media but barely responded to any direct messages and judging from other complaints I wasn't alone. Really poor service.


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## Slab (Jul 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			KLM cancelled our flights, thankfully, about a month ago. We also asked for a refund but have yet to receive it. Airbnb refunded us within days of agreeing to, but it seems the airlines are dragging their feet in comparison. I am confident that we will get our money back, as will you, but it is disappointing that it is taking them so long.
		
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Yeah I'll eventually get it, whether its a refund or claimed through consumer credit act or chargeback. Despite the treatment from them I even sympathise that they don't want to give it back & would rather I took vouchers... but to simply ignore me is out of order
(after their thousands of redundancies I don't even know that they will definitely keep this route when they restart flights)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

Slab said:



			Its over 2 months now since BA cancelled my flights and if you want refunded they still cant answer the phone or make any acknowledgement or reply to mail (they'll happily engage if you want to re-book/take vouchers, they even set that up online)

Pretty bad for the national carrier & the poor service proves it is the right choice not to defer a booking
		
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We had BA flights to Greece early June cancelled and we got our money refunded very promptly really without any issues, maybe we were lucky.  We have BA flights to Spain in October...we'll see.


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2020)

President currently meeting with other senior figures in the Spanish govt to discuss whether or not to go back to full lockdown, or something very similar.


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## IanM (Jul 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			President currently meeting with other senior figures in the Spanish govt to discuss whether or not to go back to full lockdown, or something very similar.
		
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That is bad... doubly since what happens in one country seems to be repeated elsewhere


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			President currently meeting with other senior figures in the Spanish govt to discuss whether or not to go back to full lockdown, or something very similar.
		
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How do you think the population would take that? Would they still be compliant?

Very hard psychologically for a whole country to go back into full lockdown after having come out and tasted some freedoms.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 9, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I am still a bit reserved about spending too much time in an enclosed environment with 'strangers'... If the weather perked up and I could book a table in an outside environment I'd probably be a bit more disposed to go for it... I've shifted sufficient poundage that I feel I am probably deserving of a blow out!
		
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I'm with you here

Even with this dine out in August thing I doubt we will go... Just want to keep risk low

I've said I'm out of all society events this season

Don't mind 4 balls with Mates but not whole day affairs with lots of people potentially


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## pauljames87 (Jul 9, 2020)

IanM said:



			I've been told I have to attend a  two day workshop in a hotel next week.  Programme Kick-off session with drinks and dinner in the evening!  (presumably under approved regs)

I said, that I am attending the work bit under (gentle) protest but refused to attend drinks, dinner or stay over night in the hotel.   Getting some right ear ache over it too.  Whole dam thing could have been done over Teams, so no need to be there at all.
		
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Proof already of zero learning from lockdown

Stuff like this just isn't needed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

My daughter feeling happy but guilty as she gets a good wage rise on the same day that her brother is made redundant and miserable due to the pandemic.  And we try and treat them both the same.  Being a parent is not always easy.  Funny old world - not.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My daughter feeling happy but guilty as she gets a good wage rise on the same day that her brother is made redundant and miserable due to the pandemic.  And we try and treat them both the same.  Being a parent is not always easy.  Funny old world - not. 

Click to expand...

Something I'm not looking forward to in the future. Must be such a hard balancing act

Nearest we got ATM is my best mate just had her 1st child and she is having to go back after 6 months at most and her husband's going to have to turn down a new job that's PAYE as he would be too worse off right now timing is wrong

There's me sitting with a wife who's maternity covers her better and just cleared a lot during the pandemic keeping everything running best we could.

Hard to play down the truth as will cause resentment deep down


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Something I'm not looking forward to in the future. Must be such a hard balancing act

Nearest we got ATM is my best mate just had her 1st child and she is having to go back after 6 months at most and her husband's going to have to turn down a new job that's PAYE as he would be too worse off right now timing is wrong

There's me sitting with a wife who's maternity covers her better and just cleared a lot during the pandemic keeping everything running best we could.

Hard to play down the truth as will cause resentment deep down
		
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It's tough - and you watch the news every day - today it's John Lewis, Burger King and Boots - many thousands of good jobs (mostly well paid) disappearing daily - and as a result many thousands more looking for a new job...daily...


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How do you think the population would take that? Would they still be compliant?

Very hard psychologically for a whole country to go back into full lockdown after having come out and tasted some freedoms.
		
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How the population would take it and how the Spanish govt would use the Police to enforce it are two different things. The population would, in some instances, just ignore the new lockdown, and we'd see the Police out as we did before, stopping and fining.

As it is they've just announced that they are leaving it to the regional presidents to decide what each semi-automonous regions will do. Its a coalition govt, which only just survived the lockdown. Sanchez needs the backing of the regional presidents to stay in power. Worryingly, with infection rates at the levels we saw back in May, it looks like he's made a political choice rather than a healthcare choice.

Psychologically; it would be extremely tough. When Mrs Hobbit saw the headline of a (potential) return to lockdown she burst into tears. Many friends, all retired, don't want to spend their twilight time stuck indoors. The feeling is they'd do the right things going out, social distancing etc and just accept the risk. The consensus being better to die having fun than live in a prison.


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## IainP (Jul 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			How the population would take it and how the Spanish govt would use the Police to enforce it are two different things. The population would, in some instances, just ignore the new lockdown, and we'd see the Police out as we did before, stopping and fining.

As it is they've just announced that they are leaving it to the regional presidents to decide what each semi-automonous regions will do. Its a coalition govt, which only just survived the lockdown. Sanchez needs the backing of the regional presidents to stay in power. Worryingly, with infection rates at the levels we saw back in May, it looks like he's made a political choice rather than a healthcare choice.

Psychologically; it would be extremely tough. When Mrs Hobbit saw the headline of a (potential) return to lockdown she burst into tears. Many friends, all retired, don't want to spend their twilight time stuck indoors. The feeling is they'd do the right things going out, social distancing etc and just accept the risk. The consensus being better to die having fun than live in a prison.
		
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The worldometer figures don't really seem to be showing much of a rise,  are you seeing more figures "from the inside"?


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## Billysboots (Jul 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			KLM cancelled our flights, thankfully, about a month ago. We also asked for a refund but have yet to receive it. Airbnb refunded us within days of agreeing to, but it seems the airlines are dragging their feet in comparison. I am confident that we will get our money back, as will you, but it is disappointing that it is taking them so long.
		
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I had EasyJet flights booked for the first week of June cancelled, and have just had the refund.

I also had a villa booked in Majorca for this month which I cancelled on 1 June. No sign of a refund, and despite a number of emails the local letting agent won’t give me any indication when I’m likely to get it, other than saying it may take “many months”.

I’m speculating that they won’t or can’t refund until they start recouping their money, but with respect their cash flow is not really my concern.

I could live with it if they said I’d have my money by a certain date, say, the end of September. But their refusal to make any sort of commitment is really not good enough. I’ve raised a dispute with my credit card provider.


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## Wolf (Jul 9, 2020)

Gyms reopening from 25th finally get to lift something heavy and properly de-stress.


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2020)

IainP said:



			The worldometer figures don't really seem to be showing much of a rise,  are you seeing more figures "from the inside"?
		
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I've not looked at the Worldometer figures, and can only go on those released by the individual regions. I guess that's what the Spanish govt are going by too. For example, one province saw an increase of 241 in one day earlier this week - there's 50 provinces. 4 provinces have been moved back 2 phases - only one person to go to the shops. No bars or restaurants open. Only allowed out as a couple for a 1km walk, with separate times for different age groups. And there's 2 full, Leicester-style lockdowns. 2 regions have gone for compulsory masks at all times in public.

Malaga, like Madrid and Barcelona, is seeing significant rises.


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## GB72 (Jul 9, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Gyms reopening from 25th finally get to lift something heavy and properly de-stress.
		
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My wife is over the moon, nails booked for Tuesday, gym not long after. At least her trainer has been bringing round the heavy weights twice a week to work out in the drive


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## USER1999 (Jul 9, 2020)

Sat in the club house today. Table for two. So my 4 ball had two tables, 2m apart, and we were socially distanced. What a load of nonsense.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			President currently meeting with other senior figures in the Spanish govt to discuss whether or not to go back to full lockdown, or something very similar.
		
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Looks like the Scots Gov made the right decision on air bridges.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Gyms reopening from 25th finally get to lift something heavy and properly de-stress.
		
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I think this is a really bad idea. Gyms are breeding grounds for germs, lots of hot sweaty people heavy breathing and touching lots of different surfaces. I wouldn't be visiting one for a very long time


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## Wolf (Jul 10, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I think this is a really bad idea. Gyms are breeding grounds for germs, lots of hot sweaty people heavy breathing and touching lots of different surfaces. I wouldn't be visiting one for a very long time
		
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Won't be lots of hot sweaty people at all. Guidelines alone from UK Active that must be followed is a minimum of 100sqft per person in the gyms meaning massively reduced number of users at any one time. Booking only systems to allow for specific timed activity with scheduled breaks between bookings to allow for full clean downs, as well as users cleaning the kit.  No use of changing facilities unless you have a disability or medical requirement. You'll be a lot closer to people in a supermarket than you will in a gym in the coming few months.  It's also a requirement of my job to maintain a high level of strength & fitness, not to mention to mental benefits i personally get from it.

Plus being healthy physically and mentally will help a hell of a lot people in the coming months. I'd much rather be in a controlled gym environment than anywhere near a pub with drunken knobhead or on public transport where SD is pretty much impossible. But each to their own👌


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## Wolf (Jul 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			My wife is over the moon, nails booked for Tuesday, gym not long after. At least her trainer has been bringing round the heavy weights twice a week to work out in the drive
		
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That's good at least she kept her hand in so can maintain competition standard. I dread to think what my main compound lifts are going to be😂


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## GB72 (Jul 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			That's good at least she kept her hand in so can maintain competition standard. I dread to think what my main compound lifts are going to be😂
		
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Yeah, she has been lifting pretty well recently but the 2 comps she had in the diary have both been cancelled. British Masters is due in October. Not sure whether that will be cancelled due to lack of qualifying comps or whether they will invite those who qualified last year. Problem is, anything for a while will be very uneven as some people have full how set ups to train on whilst others have not been able to lift at all for 3 months.


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## road2ruin (Jul 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Many friends, all retired, don't want to spend their twilight time stuck indoors. The feeling is they'd do the right things going out, social distancing etc and just accept the risk. The consensus being better to die having fun than live in a prison.
		
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My grandfather is 101, he was put into the shielding group and told that he'd be inside indefinitely. As soon as the general population were allowed out he was back outdoors and carrying on with his usual tasks as much as he were able with the appropriate distancing etc. He didn't do supermarkets before Covid however he likes to get his paper, 4 cans of Guinness and some biscuits which he can do so from the local convenience store. His rationale was that he wasn't going to spend the limited time he has left indoors and should Covid get him then it's his time and he'd rather that whilst doing his normal things than dying inside, alone in 6 months time having not seen the outside world again.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Plus being healthy physically and mentally will help a hell of a lot people in the coming months. I'd much rather be in a controlled gym environment than anywhere near a pub with drunken knobhead or on public transport where SD is pretty much impossible. But each to their own👌
		
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I've not been in a pub either and won't be doing so for quite some time I would imagine. I totally agree with you about the mental health benefits of excercising but is there really anything you can do in a gym you can't do outdoors in almost comlete safety? But as you say each to their own.
Stay safe.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 10, 2020)

The last 10-20 posts really bring out the different problems/issues faced by us all and how we reconcile or try to deal with this virus.

Some are quite insular, some are broad brush and sadly none of us have the answer.

As I’ve mentioned, and some are aware, we have been caring at home for the M-in-Law who is terminally ill for over 3 1/2 years, sadly the doctors have told us the treatment has run its course and we are now in the final stretch of weeks, possibly months.

We have chatted as a family and been quite honest and open about what lies ahead and asked her in particular if there’s anything she’d like to do or places she’d like to visit, daily health dependant. 

Currently we have dolphins/porpoises swimming off the nearby coast and she has said many times how she’d love to watch them, we only live 400 metres from the coast and it’s no effort to take her in her wheelchair to go and (hopefully) see them.

However, she is scared witless of leaving the house and catching the virus, not because of what it may do to her, but the fact she may pass it on to us or to one of the Nurses that visit, we’ve told her of all the precautions we can take etc, but she is adamant she’d rather stay indoors than live for however long she has left with the thought she’s infected someone else!! Really is a difficult battle trying to convince her to be selfish.

Selfish may not be the right word, but it’s the word she’s using!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Sat in the club house today. Table for two. So my 4 ball had two tables, 2m apart, and we were socially distanced. What a load of nonsense.
		
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Indoors we're setting some tables for two and some for four - appropriately spaced.  Yet to experience how the table(s) for 4 is set out.


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## GB72 (Jul 10, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Won't be lots of hot sweaty people at all. Guidelines alone from UK Active that must be followed is a minimum of 100sqft per person in the gyms meaning massively reduced number of users at any one time. Booking only systems to allow for specific timed activity with scheduled breaks between bookings to allow for full clean downs, as well as users cleaning the kit.  No use of changing facilities unless you have a disability or medical requirement. You'll be a lot closer to people in a supermarket than you will in a gym in the coming few months.  It's also a requirement of my job to maintain a high level of strength & fitness, not to mention to mental benefits i personally get from it.

Plus being healthy physically and mentally will help a hell of a lot people in the coming months. I'd much rather be in a controlled gym environment than anywhere near a pub with drunken knobhead or on public transport where SD is pretty much impossible. But each to their own👌
		
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SaintHacker said:



			I've not been in a pub either and won't be doing so for quite some time I would imagine. I totally agree with you about the mental health benefits of excercising but is there really anything you can do in a gym you can't do outdoors in almost comlete safety? But as you say each to their own.
Stay safe.
		
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I can see both sides of things, my wife does competitive power lifting and so cannot do much of what she needs to do at home as the equipment is expensive. Her trainer does bring some kit to the house but that cannot replace the normal sessions that she does. 

Gyms, pubs, pretty much everything is down to individual places and people. My gym, small gym, well managed, going to be very limited numbers in and will be well spaced out. My local pub, just that, full of locals who rarely leave the area and most of whom I am meeting in various permitted groups of 6. I am not concerned about that so much. Change that to an large, inner city pub, or a poorly run gym that crams people in and my opinions would be similar to yours I reckon. As with everything now, do what you are comfortable with and keep yourself safe, pretty much all you can do now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2020)

Re-opening of gyms will be a huge boost for my Mrs - as she was getting into a bit of a regime and in classes aimed at a bit of weight loss.  The closure of her gym has made her feel really down about herself and neither outside exercise nor Zumba classes to a video just haven't cut the mustard for her.


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## GB72 (Jul 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Re-opening of gyms will be a huge boost for my Mrs - as she was getting into a bit of a regime and in classes aimed at a bit of weight loss.  The closure of her gym has made her feel really down about herself and neither outside exercise nor Zumba classes to a video just haven't cut the mustard for her.
		
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I think that this is an important thing to remember, that we all have something different that we need for the good of our health, both mental and physical, and that we are urging to be allowed. Some people need the gym, some the pub, some a haircut, others a meal with friends. I suspect we all have that one thing that will make our daily life inexorably better when it is permitted and that is why I will be pleased for those who can do that one thing again, and for those who have a job again because their industry has opened. I may not agree with it, but then my choice is not to use that service, but I will also not rally around yelling what a disgrace is that people can do something again and how the world is clearly doomed as a result because, to some people, that one piece of news, that one relaxation, is what they have been waiting for for months and it may just get them through the next few months.


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## road2ruin (Jul 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I may not agree with it, but then my choice is not to use that service, but I will also not rally around yelling what a disgrace is that people can do something again and how the world is clearly doomed as a result because, to some people, that one piece of news, that one relaxation, is what they have been waiting for for months and it may just get them through the next few months.
		
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Totally agree with this. Some of the local FB groups have turned toxic over the last 3 months (even surpassing the effect Brexit had previously) with the different 'factions' supporting their own particular choices whilst saying how disgraceful it is that people go to the pub/shopping/beach/gym/running etc etc.


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## GB72 (Jul 10, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Totally agree with this. Some of the local FB groups have turned toxic over the last 3 months (even surpassing the effect Brexit had previously) with the different 'factions' supporting their own particular choices whilst saying how disgraceful it is that people go to the pub/shopping/beach/gym/running etc etc.
		
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I totally agree. Normally based on the argument 'if so and so can do that, why can I not do this, it must be safer'. That one started with the argument that just about anything would be safer than queuing for a supermarket and just kept going (this forum a prime example, why can I stand in a queue for a garden center but not play golf with 2 mates). Be glad that the people who do gardening can enjoy their hobby and feel better, be happy that the garden center employees have jobs, don't be bitter just because it is not your turn yet to be allowed to do what you want to do. 

What do I miss, sitting at the bar in my local chatting with the landlord, the staff and anyone who comes in. Even though pubs are open it will be a while before I can do that. Still happy for everything that other people can do that gives them that same pleasure.


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## road2ruin (Jul 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I totally agree. Normally based on the argument 'if so and so can do that, why can I not do this, it must be safer'. That one started with the argument that just about anything would be safer than queuing for a supermarket and just kept going (this forum a prime example, why can I stand in a queue for a garden center but not play golf with 2 mates). Be glad that the people who do gardening can enjoy their hobby and feel better, be happy that the garden center employees have jobs, don't be bitter just because it is not your turn yet to be allowed to do what you want to do.

What do I miss, sitting at the bar in my local chatting with the landlord, the staff and anyone who comes in. Even though pubs are open it will be a while before I can do that. Still happy for everything that other people can do that gives them that same pleasure.
		
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We've even had it with the family! I went to a pub and sat in the garden with a pint, I thoroughly enjoyed it and the pub had everything set up so felt very safe. Stuck a pic on Facebook and my aunt pipes up with the whole "rather you than me, you'll not see me in a pub again". This is the same aunt that rushed out to have her hair done (made a big deal of having one of the first appointments) and was clothes shopping as soon as the non essentials all opened. From the photos I saw of her shopping the pub garden appeared to be a far safer place to be!!


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## GB72 (Jul 10, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			We've even had it with the family! I went to a pub and sat in the garden with a pint, I thoroughly enjoyed it and the pub had everything set up so felt very safe. Stuck a pic on Facebook and my aunt pipes up with the whole "rather you than me, you'll not see me in a pub again". This is the same aunt that rushed out to have her hair done (made a big deal of having one of the first appointments) and was clothes shopping as soon as the non essentials all opened. From the photos I saw of her shopping the pub garden appeared to be a far safer place to be!! 

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I have totally stopped posting anything about what I am doing on Facebook as the self righteous brigade will be on it in 5 minutes even if what I am doing is totally permitted. Amazing how some people have come to the conclusion that everything they like to do it perfectly safe and should be allowed straight away but everything that they do not like doing is bound to be the cause of a second wave, Armageddon, the destruction of all morals etc. If a dedicated gym user says to me why he/she will not go and gives me reasons why then I will listen, if Aunt Beryl, who has never been inside a gym and has not walked further than the fridge is 1973 is going to lecture on how unsafe they are and how they should be closed, I may be less inclined to see the value of her opinion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I think that this is an important thing to remember, that we all have something different that we need for the good of our health, both mental and physical, and that we are urging to be allowed. Some people need the gym, some the pub, some a haircut, others a meal with friends. I suspect we all have that one thing that will make our daily life inexorably better when it is permitted and that is why I will be pleased for those who can do that one thing again, and for those who have a job again because their industry has opened. I may not agree with it, but then my choice is not to use that service, but I will also not rally around yelling what a disgrace is that people can do something again and how the world is clearly doomed as a result because, to some people, that one piece of news, that one relaxation, is what they have been waiting for for months and it may just get them through the next few months.
		
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road2ruin said:



			Totally agree with this. Some of the local FB groups have turned toxic over the last 3 months (even surpassing the effect Brexit had previously) with the different 'factions' supporting their own particular choices whilst saying how disgraceful it is that people go to the pub/shopping/beach/gym/running etc etc.
		
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Spot on guys. Totally wrong to sit in judgement of others, especially when we have no idea what that individual needs or is coping with.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 10, 2020)

A couple of indicators of steps in return to 'normalcy'... Hearing the empties being collected from the nearby pub... And, the horse box being parked up, around the corner, to take away the horses and hearse carriage from a funeral at the crem'... Not seen/heard either for months... 

Went, ourselves, for a quick High Street shop in nearby Uxbridge... Fairly empty for a Friday IMHO... 50/50 on mask wearing... Better than expected observation of any arrows...


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 10, 2020)

Took the dogs to the local earlier for an after work pint. First time since lockdown. 
Very comfortable expecting to be put off returning with the measures in place but thankfully enough it was near on as it was before just with lines on the floor.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 10, 2020)

Missed my train by seconds earlier and so rather than loitering at the station with nothing open I wandered back to O'Neils. QR reader at the front desk to record your details for track and trace and then downloaded the app. Ordered first drink at bar which was brought over and then ordered each other drink via the app. Sat on a table on my own near the TV so watched to cricket. Decided to stay a while. It was very quiet from 3.30 until the offices kicked out around 4.45 so decided enough was enough and drank up and left

Was being run very efficiently at the front of house and the app worked a treat. Felt rather nice to have a quiet pint. Not sure I'd want to do it if it was a weekend and did feel rather nervy and edgy once more people came in


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I think that this is an important thing to remember, that we all have something different that we need for the good of our health, both mental and physical, and that we are urging to be allowed. Some people need the gym, some the pub, some a haircut, others a meal with friends. I suspect we all have that one thing that will make our daily life inexorably better when it is permitted and that is why I will be pleased for those who can do that one thing again, and for those who have a job again because their industry has opened. I may not agree with it, but then my choice is not to use that service, but I will also not rally around yelling what a disgrace is that people can do something again and how the world is clearly doomed as a result because, to some people, that one piece of news, that one relaxation, is what they have been waiting for for months and it may just get them through the next few months.
		
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Whether she starts to go regularly is one thing - but the fact that it will now be open if she chooses to go will help her hugely mentally.  I have no doubt that she'll book a class once they get going - or a session with a PT.  She may not like it if she feels it is too busy - but at least she can give it a go.


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## Imurg (Jul 10, 2020)

It seems the one way systems in supermarkets have been done away with..at least they have in our Tesco....


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## BrianM (Jul 10, 2020)

A massive increase in traffic going up the west coast today, loads of camper vans and cars with kayaks on top.


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## Italian outcast (Jul 10, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Took the dogs to the local earlier for an after work pint. First time since lockdown.
Very comfortable expecting to be put off returning with the measures in place but thankfully enough it was near on as it was before just with lines on the floor.
		
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Good on you - its important to look after your hounds' mental health 
Over here - the 1st day I was able to take our older 2 Jacks to their local cafe for their biscuits - they were wetting themselves with excitement when they realised where they were going


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## SaintHacker (Jul 10, 2020)

BrianM said:



			A massive increase in traffic going up the west coast today, loads of camper vans and cars with kayaks on top.
		
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Nothing more than personal opinion based on what I've read/heard from various sources, but I think the virus is virtually gone outdoors. A few weeks ago thousands flocked to the beaches, people screamed armageddn and the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Later there were huge demos in London. No second spike as yet from these. I feel in indoor public spaces you still need to be very careful but outside, unless someone full on sneezes right in your face you're not going to catch it.


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## Billysboots (Jul 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've not looked at the Worldometer figures, and can only go on those released by the individual regions. I guess that's what the Spanish govt are going by too. For example, one province saw an increase of 241 in one day earlier this week - there's 50 provinces. 4 provinces have been moved back 2 phases - only one person to go to the shops. No bars or restaurants open. Only allowed out as a couple for a 1km walk, with separate times for different age groups. And there's 2 full, Leicester-style lockdowns. 2 regions have gone for compulsory masks at all times in public.

Malaga, like Madrid and Barcelona, is seeing significant rises.
		
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Certainly the Worldometer figures for Spain today are concerning - over 850 positive tests in the last 24 hours. And France is also seeing a bit of an increase.


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## bobmac (Jul 11, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It seems the one way systems in supermarkets have been done away with..at least they have in our Tesco....
		
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Same here.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jul 11, 2020)

Imurg said:



			It seems the one way systems in supermarkets have been done away with..at least they have in our Tesco....
		
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I thought I was the only person taking any notice of it.   Apparently the bigger the mask you wore, the more you could ignore all the rules.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 11, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I thought I was the only person taking any notice of it.   Apparently the bigger the mask you wore, the more you could ignore all the rules.
		
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Take your kids plus granny and you can ignore all rules and gain instant immunity 😳. It must be true, I've seen it in action 🙄.

How hard is it to follow a set of arrows? Disturbingly difficult apparently.


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## Imurg (Jul 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Take your kids plus granny and you can ignore all rules and gain instant immunity 😳. It must be true, I've seen it in action 🙄.

How hard is it to follow a set of arrows? Disturbingly difficult apparently.
		
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Many can't do it on the road so how can you expect them to do it in a supermarket
Bliss this morning zipping round Tesco in half an hour without having to hike half a mile to follow arrows..


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 11, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Nothing more than personal opinion based on what I've read/heard from various sources, but I think the virus is virtually gone outdoors. A few weeks ago thousands flocked to the beaches, people screamed armageddn and the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Later there were huge demos in London. No second spike as yet from these. I feel in indoor public spaces you still need to be very careful but outside, unless someone full on sneezes right in your face you're not going to catch it.
		
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I hope you are right, and I do take your point about no spike after the mass outdoor gatherings, but.....
Knowing that this virus can also be spread by touch, how are people  not at some real risk by supping a pint pulled and handed to you in a glass touched by someone else. Glass is the ideal transfer medium, and just how does a pub served pint avoid such a real risk.?

It doesn't....unfortunately 
We can only hope that ,as with the beach crowds etc, there isn't a second spike following the pubs re -opening.


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2020)

Masks obilgatory from Monday here in Andalucia when outside, apart from when you're sat in a bar or restaurant.


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## BrianM (Jul 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Masks obilgatory from Monday here in Andalucia when outside, apart from when you're sat in a bar or restaurant.
		
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Was at B and Q earlier picking up a new lawnmower and they have a doorman, £6 for a mask if you don’t have one.
You don’t get into any shops here without one now.


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2020)

BrianM said:



			Was at B and Q earlier picking up a new lawnmower and they have a doorman, £6 for a mask if you don’t have one.
You don’t get into any shops here without one now.
		
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The govt here fixed the price of masks months ago. 0.69cents per mask. If you want to get a fancy one, you pay whatever the retailer asks but the throw away is fixed price.


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2020)

Almost 70% of those testing positive in the last two weeks are at the younger end of the age demographic. Track and trace has shown that many of the young who have become infected caught the virus in bars, restaurants and at parties. 60 people between 23 and 26 from one party have been found to have the virus.

There are now 73 outbreaks of the virus across Spain.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 11, 2020)

Will be interesting to see if/when we get a second spike whether the younger end of the demographic are more affected this time given the fact bars and pubs are open. Saw an article on the local news last night about Filipino nursing staff in hospitals and care homes being disproportionally affected by the virus. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...exerts-heavy-toll-on-filipino-community-in-uk 

Given how many nursing staff we have a our trust alone from there it has the potential to be a major issue with staffing if we get a serious outbreak again


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Almost 70% of those testing positive in the last two weeks are at the younger end of the age demographic. Track and trace has shown that many of the young who have become infected caught the virus in bars, restaurants and at parties. 60 people between 23 and 26 from one party have been found to have the virus.

There are now 73 outbreaks of the virus across Spain.
		
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Are those younger people contracting it and becoming badly ill, needing hospital treatment, or are they simply contracting it and then getting over it?


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## Billysboots (Jul 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are those younger people contracting it and becoming badly ill, needing hospital treatment, or are they simply contracting it and then getting over it?
		
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It’s strange how the emphasis seems to shift from concern over death rates, to infection rates, and then back again.

My question would now tend to be the same. I think the U.K. figures released today are a bit misleading, as a huge proportion of the deaths are historic. It’s really important now to know the number of deaths occurring in the last 24 hours, as there is mounting speculation that, despite the number of infections plateauing, the number of hospitalisations, and those becoming seriously ill, continue to fall.

As the pandemic continues, the context to the figures becomes more important by the day.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2020)

A local vegetable farm has reported 73 of its workers have been tested positive out of a seasonal workforce of 200. The workers are living in caravans on site.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A local vegetable farm has reported 73 of its workers have been tested positive out of a seasonal workforce of 200. The workers are living in caravans on site.
		
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Most were asymptomatic apparently, didn't realise they had it.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Most were asymptomatic apparently, didn't realise they had it.
		
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Might give the local Veg a miss.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

Mrs was down in Brighton for a few days last week and her experience that a lot of folks are acting back to normal.  Either don’t care or maybe just finding the new rules just a bit too optional and variable in an IF THEN ELSE IF THEN ELSE...sort of way to get head around. Daughter reports things back almost to normal in Clapham and Brixton visiting friends this weekend.  Though it was to see many groups in our local park sitting around and most looking to adhere to the rules.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

****Don't mess with Spanish Police****

It kicked off Saturday evening. The first lot of British tourists arrived late last week. On Saturday evening a number of them went out without masks. Stopped by the Police and told to go back to the hotel and get their masks. An argument ensued, which is always a bad idea with Spanish Police. More Police arrived, numerous fines were handed out.

This morning, at the same hotel, 6 more Brits were stopped and fined and they left to go to the beach.

On a wider note; more new infections in Andalucia then any other province in Spain, and more in our region than any other region of Andalucia. Unconfirmed reports of 45 new infections in a local town, more than treble what they've had for the last 5 months. The average age has also dropped significantly.


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## backwoodsman (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



****Don't mess with Spanish Police****

It kicked off Saturday evening. The first lot of British tourists arrived late last week. On Saturday evening a number of them went out without masks. Stopped by the Police and told to go back to the hotel and get their masks. An argument ensued, which is always a bad idea with Spanish Police. More Police arrived, numerous fines were handed out.

This morning, at the same hotel, 6 more Brits were stopped and fined and they left to go to the beach.

On a wider note; more new infections in Andalucia then any other province in Spain, and more in our region than any other region of Andalucia. *Unconfirmed reports of 45 new infections in a local town*, more than treble what they've had for the last 5 months. The average age has also dropped significantly.
		
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Brian;  out of interest, which town?


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Brian;  out of interest, which town?
		
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Vera.

Previously, they had 14 case. There's 4 more confirmed in the last week, and Spectrum Radio have had it on good authority, but are trying to get corroboration, that there has been 45 in the last 24 hours.

Worryingly, it appears to be the younger generation getting it. Beach parties etc seem to be the breeding grounds. Last week in Valencia there was a beach party, from which 63, 23 to 26 year olds, got it.


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## GB72 (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Vera.

Previously, they had 14 case. There's 4 more confirmed in the last week, and Spectrum Radio have had it on good authority, but are trying to get corroboration, that there has been 45 in the last 24 hours.

Worryingly, it appears to be the younger generation getting it. Beach parties etc seem to be the breeding grounds. Last week in Valencia there was a beach party, from which 63, 23 to 26 year olds, got it.
		
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Seems to be a pattern. Figures I saw the other week (think it was from the US) showed that the average age of a new infection had dropped by 15 years over the previous couple of weeks. The younger generation have shown relatively little respect for it throughout, seeing it as something that does not effect them, and now that they can meet up, the risks that they are taking have increased exponentially.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Seems to be a pattern. Figures I saw the other week (think it was from the US) showed that the average age of a new infection had dropped by 15 years over the previous couple of weeks. The younger generation have shown relatively little respect for it throughout, seeing it as something that does not effect them, and now that they can meet up, the risks that they are taking have increased exponentially.
		
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During lockdown here in Spain the average of both male and female infecteds was over 60. Its now 55 for men and 47 for women. Bearing in mind the number of infected back then it takes huge numbers to pull the averages down.


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## GB72 (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			During lockdown here in Spain the average of both male and female infecteds was over 60. Its now 55 for men and 47 for women. Bearing in mind the number of infected back then it takes huge numbers to pull the averages down.
		
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Think it has already dropped from similar levels to an average of 33 in the States.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Think it has already dropped from similar levels to an average of 33 in the States.
		
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Which chimes with what Mrs Hogie saw in Brighton, and daughter saw up in Clapham and Brixton,  the younger crowd basically getting on with it as if normal.


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## Slab (Jul 13, 2020)

I’ve got disposable ones, I’ve got washable ones, I’ve got thin ones, I’ve got thick ones, I’ve got ‘surgical & certified’ ones, I’ve got sports branded ones, I’ve got plain fabric ones I even have colour coordinated ones for golf. 
I’ve been (mandated) to wear them anywhere in public for 4 months now and I’m (trying to) pick one up when I leave the house as automatically as I’d pick up wallet, keys etc. 

I might’ve missed it but I haven’t seen any science that says I’m _more _likely to contract the virus when wearing one (just the opposite in fact) If it hadn’t been mandatory I’d be wearing them anyway so its not even a Gov thing. But we’re four months on from the blow-up, so whats the deal with the continued aversion from many in the UK towards masks?


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## drdel (Jul 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			I’ve got disposable ones, I’ve got washable ones, I’ve got thin ones, I’ve got thick ones, I’ve got ‘surgical & certified’ ones, I’ve got sports branded ones, I’ve got plain fabric ones I even have colour coordinated ones for golf.
I’ve been (mandated) to wear them anywhere in public for 4 months now and I’m (trying to) pick one up when I leave the house as automatically as I’d pick up wallet, keys etc.

I might’ve missed it but I haven’t seen any science that says I’m _more _likely to contract the virus when wearing one (just the opposite in fact) If it hadn’t been mandatory I’d be wearing them anyway so its not even a Gov thing. But we’re four months on from the blow-up, so whats the deal with the continued aversion from many in the UK towards masks?

View attachment 31587

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As my old Dad said many decades ago " If you can take precautions, do so - if you can't then be prepared to face the consequences". I don't *think* he was talking 'flu'


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			I’ve got disposable ones, I’ve got washable ones, I’ve got thin ones, I’ve got thick ones, I’ve got ‘surgical & certified’ ones, I’ve got sports branded ones, I’ve got plain fabric ones I even have colour coordinated ones for golf.
I’ve been (mandated) to wear them anywhere in public for 4 months now and I’m (trying to) pick one up when I leave the house as automatically as I’d pick up wallet, keys etc.

I might’ve missed it but I haven’t seen any science that says I’m _more _likely to contract the virus when wearing one (just the opposite in fact) If it hadn’t been mandatory I’d be wearing them anyway so its not even a Gov thing. But we’re four months on from the blow-up, *so whats the deal with the continued aversion from many in the UK towards masks?*

View attachment 31587

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The scientists at the briefings consistently stated that masks did little to prevent the spread of the virus. That was said so clearly and frequently that it became ingrained. I don't think they have particularly changed their minds on this but the mood has gone towards masks anyway.

I have now started wearing one in shops, held off until Friday. Hated it but will continue to wear it. I don't find it uncomfortable, it is partly psychological that it reminds me that this virus is dominating life right now and it also removes a key sign of human expression. I let someone go past me in the supermarket on Friday, at a junction part, I smiled. I have no idea if she knew and that made me sad. Smiling, human expression, it is part of life (unless you live in a major city and you avoid eye contact ) Big deal you might say but that may be why there is an aversion, imo. We like to see faces, masks dehumanise.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The scientists at the briefings consistently stated that masks did little to prevent the spread of the virus. That was said so clearly and frequently that it became ingrained. I don't think they have particularly changed their minds on this but the mood has gone towards masks anyway.

I have now started wearing one in shops, held off until Friday. Hated it but will continue to wear it. I don't find it uncomfortable, it is partly psychological that it reminds me that this virus is dominating life right now and it also removes a key sign of human expression. I let someone go past me in the supermarket on Friday, at a junction part, I smiled. I have no idea if she knew and that made me sad. Smiling, human expression, it is part of life (unless you live in a major city and you avoid eye contact ) Big deal you might say but that may be why there is an aversion, imo. We like to see faces, masks dehumanise.
		
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And whilst the scientists were saying this, the NHS was desperately sourcing masks. And the NHS pandemic guidance was masks... but the scientists, or should I say the govt, didn't what little stock there was bought up by Joe Public??


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## Slab (Jul 13, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The scientists at the briefings consistently stated that masks did little to prevent the spread of the virus. That was said so clearly and frequently that it became ingrained. I don't think they have particularly changed their minds on this but the mood has gone towards masks anyway.

I have now started wearing one in shops, held off until Friday. Hated it but will continue to wear it. I don't find it uncomfortable, it is partly psychological that it reminds me that this virus is dominating life right now and it also removes a key sign of human expression. I let someone go past me in the supermarket on Friday, at a junction part, I smiled. I have no idea if she knew and that made me sad. Smiling, human expression, it is part of life (unless you live in a major city and you avoid eye contact ) Big deal you might say but that may be why there is an aversion, imo. We like to see faces, masks dehumanise.
		
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Yeah the smiling thing is taking time to get used to, and folks can tell by your eyes as you say (although half the time I have sunglasses on so that doesn't help) Also find you have to deliberately use your voice to convey how you're feeling when you greet someone (can't get away with a grumbled 'good morning' anymore)

But all that's a small price if I can cut the risk of giving/receiving. Even washing hands and using hand gel as I did pre-covid I'd typically pick up a common cold once a year so that tells me that carrying on with no other notable changes means at some point I'd contract covid and I'd just rather not  

The freaky thing is that it has been eradicated here right now so everyone knows there is zero danger but even when i went to the (outdoor) bar yesterday the waiter had one on and so did I (I could take mine off when not being served) same at the supermarket earlier in the day (wouldn't be allowed in otherwise)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

Slab said:



			...But we’re four months on from the blow-up, *so whats the deal with the continued aversion from many in the UK towards masks?*

View attachment 31587

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I am thinking that there has for a couple of decades been a scornful, scoffing and somewhat sneering attitude by we Brits when confronted by Chinese and Japanese in the UK wearing masks. How silly they were; how silly they looked; such over-reaction - and to what...?   It was an attitude that we had learned - it was an attitude that was embedded.

So for those of us who so scoffed (mea cupla) we have to forget and get over our sneering and scoffing at the wearing of a mask- else we have to sneer and scoff at ourselves.  We have to understand and accept that we simply did not understand...that our British sense of superiority in all matters trivial and significant was in this instance quite misplaced.  And that is difficult for many to do - on an individual and very personal basis,


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And whilst the scientists were saying this, the NHS was desperately sourcing masks. And the NHS pandemic guidance was masks... but the scientists, or should I say the govt, didn't what little stock there was bought up by Joe Public??
		
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Quite possibly, although the basic masks that we would be buying are very basic, not up to covid levels of protection. The reasoning behind us all not wearing masks sounded plausible, and as I mentioned the chief scientists and medical advisors have not wavered from it. May be they just don't think they make much difference for people who are out and about?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am thinking that there has for a couple of decades been a scornful, scoffing and somewhat sneering attitude by we Brits when confronted by Chinese and Japanese in the UK wearing masks. How silly they were; how silly they looked; such over-reaction - and to what...?   It was an attitude that we had learned - it was an attitude that was embedded.

So for those of us who so scoffed (mea cupla) we have to forget and get over our sneering and scoffing at the wearing of a mask- else we have to sneer and scoff at ourselves.  We have to understand and accept that we simply did not understand..*.that our British sense of superiority in all matters trivial and significant was in this instance quite misplaced*.  And that is difficult for many to do - on an individual and very personal basis,
		
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Having done a reasonable amount of air travel with work I don't think I have ever seen or heard a sense of superiority regarding people looking at those from SE Asia wearing masks. Odd looks, uncomfortable looks but not superiority. Equally, no one else in Europe wears them, no one from Africa, N.America, S.America, the other regions of Asia so why state British superiority? There is none. Masks are regularly worn by travellers from that region as they are paraniod about SARS type viruses in particular but viruses generally. It is standard for them to wear masks on flights, they don't think twice about it. We have not as we have simply not had anything like this hit us before, it has mainly stayed within the SE Asia region.

The odd looks going forward will no longer be there, there will certainly be greater understanding of why masks are worn. I still think the rest of the world will not be adopting masks as standard though. Not unless this keeps hanging around and re-occurs year after year.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Quite possibly, although the basic masks that we would be buying are very basic, not up to covid levels of protection. The reasoning behind us all not wearing masks sounded plausible, and as I mentioned the chief scientists and medical advisors have not wavered from it. May be they just don't think they make much difference for people who are out and about?
		
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An analogy I heard was if you're stood in shorts, and I pee towards you, you will get a wet leg.. If you're wearing long trousers, you get a damp leg. If I'm wearing trousers you get... a bit simplistic I know. 

Someone might cough/sneeze out millions of germs. Without a mask, all of them head towards you. Depending on how good a mask they're wearing will have a direct correlation to how many germs make it to you. You might still catch it but a mask will limit the viral load, which in itself is very important.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			An analogy I heard was if you're stood in shorts, and I pee towards you, you will get a wet leg.. If you're wearing long trousers, you get a damp leg. If I'm wearing trousers you get... a bit simplistic I know.

Someone might cough/sneeze out millions of germs. Without a mask, all of them head towards you. Depending on how good a mask they're wearing will have a direct correlation to how many germs make it to you. You might still catch it but a mask will limit the viral load, which in itself is very important.
		
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I heard that analogy, it is a good one. What if you are not coughing and sneezing though? They don't make a difference particularly then. Also, more importantly, if you are coughing and sneezing then you shouldn't be out anyway, mask or not.


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## fundy (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			An analogy I heard was if you're stood in shorts, and I pee towards you, you will get a wet leg.. If you're wearing long trousers, you get a damp leg. If I'm wearing trousers you get... a bit simplistic I know.

Someone might cough/sneeze out millions of germs. Without a mask, all of them head towards you. Depending on how good a mask they're wearing will have a direct correlation to how many germs make it to you. You might still catch it but a mask will limit the viral load, which in itself is very important.
		
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or learn to aim and stop peeing on me


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## IainP (Jul 13, 2020)

fundy said:



			or learn to aim and stop peeing on me 

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He thought you were on fire 😉


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## Billysboots (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			During lockdown here in Spain the average of both male and female infecteds was over 60. Its now 55 for men and 47 for women. Bearing in mind the number of infected back then it takes huge numbers to pull the averages down.
		
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I have noticed the Worldometers figures for Spain do not appear to have been updated for a couple of days. I’ve a horrible feeling we’re about to see a big spike.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I have noticed the Worldometers figures for Spain do not appear to have been updated for a couple of days. I’ve a horrible feeling we’re about to see a big spike.
		
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From there being 11 new outbreaks in different areas last week there are now over 100. A couple of areas are in a Leicester-style lockdown. Several regions have been knocked back to phase 2 of unlock, which is not far short of total lockdown again. A good number of provinces are now mandating masks if you're outside your garden gate.

A number of provinces who missed the first spike through March/April/May/June, ours included, are seeing the biggest rises - fresh fodder for the virus?


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I have noticed the Worldometers figures for Spain do not appear to have been updated for a couple of days. I’ve a horrible feeling we’re about to see a big spike.
		
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Now at 120 new outbreaks. Hospitalisations are relatively small, but the numbers going into ICU amongst the younger generations is worrying. Deaths still quite low, and will hopefully stay there but early in the cycle...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Having done a reasonable amount of air travel with work I don't think I have ever seen or heard a sense of superiority regarding people looking at those from SE Asia wearing masks. Odd looks, uncomfortable looks but not superiority. Equally, no one else in Europe wears them, no one from Africa, N.America, S.America, the other regions of Asia so why state British superiority? There is none. Masks are regularly worn by travellers from that region as they are paraniod about SARS type viruses in particular but viruses generally. It is standard for them to wear masks on flights, they don't think twice about it. We have not as we have simply not had anything like this hit us before, it has mainly stayed within the SE Asia region.

The odd looks going forward will no longer be there, there will certainly be greater understanding of why masks are worn. I still think the rest of the world will not be adopting masks as standard though. Not unless this keeps hanging around and re-occurs year after year.
		
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I am more specifically thinking of when we see Japanese and Chinese in the UK wearing face masks...not thinking of when abroad.  Perhaps not so much superiority - but of course in the UK we have historically know better in this matter...that masks just aren't required in the UK so why are they wearing them...

But even if we were only bemused - I have to get over the thought that others will be bemused by me wearing one - that others won't be laughing at me as I rather laughed at others.  I am not laughing now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am more specifically thinking of when we see Japanese and Chinese in the UK wearing face masks...not thinking of when abroad.  Perhaps not so much superiority - but of course in the UK we have historically know better in this matter...that masks just aren't required in the UK so why are they wearing them...

But even if we were only bemused - I have to get over the thought that others will be bemused by me wearing one - that others won't be laughing at me as I rather laughed at others.  I am not laughing now.
		
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Masks were not ever required in the UK before this. Walking around in one prior to this would have drawn glances, we were not in a pandemic then, we have not had SARS epidemics here. Now we are in a pandemic, very different circumstances, and no one looks twice at someone in a mask.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am more specifically thinking of when we see Japanese and Chinese in the UK wearing face masks...not thinking of when abroad.  Perhaps not so much superiority - but of course in the UK we have historically know better in this matter...that masks just aren't required in the UK so why are they wearing them...

But even if we were only bemused - I have to get over the thought that others will be bemused by me wearing one - that others won't be laughing at me as I rather laughed at others.  I am not laughing now.
		
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Didn't do the Chinese population much good wearing the masks when Covid started though did it? 

I also think its sad if anyone has a superior attitude to those from Asia wearing masks. Isn't that just another stereotype akin to racism in the same way as slitty eyes (from the GB cultural attache Prince Phillip)


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## Billysboots (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Now at 120 new outbreaks. Hospitalisations are relatively small, but the numbers going into ICU amongst the younger generations is worrying. Deaths still quite low, and will hopefully stay there but early in the cycle...
		
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The figures have now been updated and, whilst there has only been one death recorded in the last 24 hours, there are over 2000 more positive tests than when Worldometers was last brought up to date on what’s happening in Spain.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Now at 120 new outbreaks. Hospitalisations are relatively small, but the numbers going into ICU amongst the younger generations is worrying. Deaths still quite low, and will hopefully stay there but early in the cycle...
		
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Touch wood over here we're still Covid free in ICU and have been for a few weeks although the hospital in general has gone back to a state of readiness and already pre-planning for a second surge in the Autumn/Winter. It's trying to learn from the mistakes of the first outbreak and so things will be done differently. I am not sure there has been thought as to whether it'll affect the younger generation in particular and think it'll be simply a case of dealing with that's in front of you at the time


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## SaintHacker (Jul 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Touch wood over here we're still Covid free in ICU and have been for a few weeks although the hospital in general has gone back to a state of readiness and already pre-planning for a second surge in the Autumn/Winter. It's trying to learn from the mistakes of the first outbreak and so things will be done differently. I am not sure there has been thought as to whether it'll affect the younger generation in particular and think it'll be simply a case of dealing with that's in front of you at the time
		
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Do you feel that given what we now know about the virus, how it spreads, and how best to treat it, we will be more on top of it from the outset if/when it does start to bite again in the winter months (assuming there's no vaccine by then)?


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2020)

There is still a significant reservoir of disease in the community, currently more or less held in check by social distancing, working from home etc. It hasn’t come down enough to raise any realistic prospect of there not being a significant second wave. The US is about to get a severe kicking of cases so I think people here will be chastened. We’ll see if that is enough. If by November we know there is a viable vaccine that offers at least a years protection, even if it not Sydenham available, then it should be possible to batten down the hatches for long enough.


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2020)

One city and 6 large towns in Northern Spain are placed in full lockdown, as per the rules from mid-March. Only one person allowed out to buy essential items, and that's it. No bars or restaurants. All non-essential businesses closed again.

The regions and provinces are reacting quite quickly but the numbers are still rising.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2020)

...and Hancock says we'll be wearing masks in shops and on public transport for the foreseeable future - with no end date given.  Joys.  But no plans for mandating general wearing in public places apparently...well hopefully that's well grounded in the science and so let's hope that that doesn't change.

Add in some epidemiologists/virus bods telling us that Covid-19 may well end up always being with us in the manner that the common cold is always with us.  We will have to learn to live with it - but it's always going to be about.  And with much more serious consequences for some than catching a cold...


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and Hancock says we'll be wearing masks in shops and on public transport for the foreseeable future - with no end date given.  Joys.  But no plans for mandating general wearing in public places apparently...well hopefully that's well grounded in the science and so let's hope that that doesn't change.

Add in some epidemiologists/virus bods telling us that Covid-19 may well end up always being with us in the manner that the common cold is always with us.  We will have to learn to live with it - but it's always going to be about.  And with much more serious consequences for some than catching a cold...

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Covid probably will be with us, so the big question is whether it mutates and bigger and badder versions come along. Some of the smart biologists who have examined Covid think that the likelihood of significant mutation is not high. And once we get to the point where everyone is either exposed or vaccinated, then our ability to respond to subsequent strains might be better. Like with the flu (although Covid is NOT the flu), over decades we have developed a sort of immunological understanding with it. With Covid, we are trying to do it in a much shorter time.


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## Slab (Jul 15, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			One city and 6 large towns in Northern Spain are placed in full lockdown, as per the rules from mid-March. Only one person allowed out to buy essential items, and that's it. No bars or restaurants. All non-essential businesses closed again.

The regions and provinces are reacting quite quickly but the numbers are still rising.
		
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Not good news at all

More & more (& only with hindsight) i'm glad we had one of the toughest lockdowns here
I do wonder if the same _medical curfew _lockdown could've worked in larger population countries, we have a high population density but not a high population (comparatively speaking) or would there just be too many rule breakers for it to be effective when the population is in the tens of millions


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## GB72 (Jul 15, 2020)

Slab said:



			Not good news at all

More & more (& only with hindsight) i'm glad we had one of the toughest lockdowns here
I do wonder if the same _medical curfew _lockdown could've worked in larger population countries, we have a high population density but not a high population (comparatively speaking) or would there just be too many rule breakers for it to be effective when the population is in the tens of millions
		
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I suspect that sort of lockdown would have required the army on the streets


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## DRW (Jul 16, 2020)

https://phe.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=47574f7a6e454dc6a42c5f6912ed7076

The recent cases near you/postcode searchable/viewable on the map for week 28. A new feature I believe. Doesn't appear you can change the date range currently, which is a shame.

But Masses of areas look like nil, makes you feel better where you live, if not in a hot area. Will have to check to regional data later tonight, as out of interest.

Very interesting and reassuring in some ways.


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## fundy (Jul 16, 2020)

DRW said:



https://phe.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=47574f7a6e454dc6a42c5f6912ed7076

The recent cases near you/postcode searchable/viewable on the map for week 28. A new feature I believe. Doesn't appear you can change the date range currently, which is a shame.

But Masses of areas look like nil, makes you feel better where you live, if not in a hot area. Will have to check to regional data later tonight, as out of interest.

Very interesting and reassuring in some ways.
		
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am i missing something, lot of the areas are "data suppressed" not nil


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## DRW (Jul 16, 2020)

All other areas are 2 cases or below, From the detail on the map, it says
Suppression:

Numbers from 0 to 2 (inclusive) are suppressed.

So all other areas range from 0 to 2.

Why they have done that not to sure, maybe data protection and witch hunts.

Just quickly looking at it, it works for Shropshire, think it shows 9 cases on the map and there was 11 in total for the relevant period, so a random 2 for the rest of the areas.

Gives you a idea areas not to go near as such, I don't fancy Burton or Cradley Golf club at the moment


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 17, 2020)

A pub in town been closed today due to a punter dining on Wednesday evening has been tested positive.  We haven't been in but daughter and some friends have - it's a busy place.  Don't think any of our friends were in on Wednesday evening.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2020)

Last Friday I went for a walk on the Malvern Hills.  Passing one of the parking places I saw a group of people of Asian ethnicity, they had a portable gas cooker and a range of cooking untensels on a public bench table and were preparing a meal, I counted 22 people of various ages and no social distancing whatsoever.  I only mention the cooker as there was a notice next to them saying 'No Barbecues, No fires of any type'

Why do they put themselves at such risk of infection knowing the death rates of BAME  people, I just dont understand their mindset.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 21, 2020)

Covid being back on the ward


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## Rlburnside (Jul 27, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I have noticed the Worldometers figures for Spain do not appear to have been updated for a couple of days. I’ve a horrible feeling we’re about to see a big spike.
		
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How right you were, it was reported that thousands of Brits are on holiday in Spain at the moment, it beggars belief why they thought it was a good idea to go to Spain for a holiday at the moment.


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## Crazyface (Jul 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Last Friday I went for a walk on the Malvern Hills.  Passing one of the parking places I saw a group of people of Asian ethnicity, they had a portable gas cooker and a range of cooking untensels on a public bench table and were preparing a meal, I counted 22 people of various ages and no social distancing whatsoever.  I only mention the cooker as there was a notice next to them saying 'No Barbecues, No fires of any type'

Why do they put themselves at such risk of infection knowing the death rates of BAME  people, I just dont understand their mindset.
		
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You should have called the police immediately!


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## Billysboots (Jul 28, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			How right you were, it was reported that thousands of Brits are on holiday in Spain at the moment, it beggars belief why they thought it was a good idea to go to Spain for a holiday at the moment.
		
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It appears Spain are not updating their figures over the weekend. About 6,000 positive tests added in total yesterday so clearly there is an issue although I can’t see anything to add context to those numbers.

The Spanish say the situation is controlled, and this may of course be down to mass testing in areas like Catalonia, where they have had a localised spike. All we can do is speculate but, on their own, the numbers are a worry.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 28, 2020)

Personally I wouldn’t and have no intention of travelling abroad, the Government should be commended for acting so quickly over the Spanish figures, but I can see why some people are frustrated when parts of Spain have a lower coronavirus rates than some parts of England.

I don’t know the answer but the Government seem stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Personally I wouldn’t and have no intention of travelling abroad, the Government should be commended for acting so quickly over the Spanish figures, but I can see why some people are frustrated when parts of Spain have a lower coronavirus rates than some parts of England.

I don’t know the answer but the Government seem stuck between a rock and a hard place.
		
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Logically, I can see the govt altering the advice to a blanket ban on Spanish travel to a more localised one. There is no reason for the islands to be included, their numbers are well below the UK. Equally, Andalucia is also well below the UK so allow people to fly to Malaga. The ban brought in is a little like Spain blocking the UK because of spikes in Leicester and Blackburn.

Saying all that, anyone going anywhere abroad right now is taking a risk and people trying to claim otherwise and blaming the govt for this are deluding themselves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Personally I wouldn’t and have no intention of travelling abroad, the Government should be commended for acting so quickly over the Spanish figures, but I can see why some people are frustrated when parts of Spain have a lower coronavirus rates than some parts of England.

I don’t know the answer but the Government seem stuck between a rock and a hard place.
		
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I would agree - perhaps the only thing they could have done different would have been to highlight very clearly ten days or so ago that the increase being seen in parts of Spain could very likely and very soon lead to a quarantine being imposed at very short notice on travellers arriving from anywhere in Spain if that increase continued.  But I get the problems that such a statement could make so not sure it would have made things better or worse.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Personally I wouldn’t and have no intention of travelling abroad, the Government should be commended for acting so quickly over the Spanish figures, but I can see why some people are frustrated when parts of Spain have a lower coronavirus rates than some parts of England.

I don’t know the answer but the Government seem stuck between a rock and a hard place.
		
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Think you've summed it pretty well there.

We were due to fly out in 3 days time to Spain, but we cancelled it even after it was given the ok to go because we knew there was a chance restrictions could return so wasn't worth the risk of 14 days loss of pay.

As LT says perhaps they can look at something regional in perhaps allowing Island not mainland, mind you people will moan about that to being restrictive. But whatever they choose to do your last sentence nails it they are in a rock and a hard place and will get the blame regardless as people don't want to be at fault for their own poor decisions.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would agree - perhaps the only thing they could have done different would have been to highlight very clearly ten days or so ago that the increase being seen in parts of Spain could very likely and very soon lead to a quarantine being imposed at very short notice on travellers arriving from anywhere in Spain if that increase continued.  But I get the problems that such a statement could make so not sure it would have made things better or worse.
		
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People have been asking the govt for clear and decisive decisions throughout this. Warning people that something may or may not happen is anything but that. They could possibly give something like an amber warning, I've just made that up incidentally, but I think being clear is the best option.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			People have been asking the govt for clear and decisive decisions throughout this. Warning people that something may or may not happen is anything but that. They could possibly give something like an *amber* warning, I've just made that up incidentally, but I think being clear is the best option.
		
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You may have made it up, but that could work in a very similar way to the military "Bikini" alert systems where the colour codes are used to highlight the current alert state. 

Could easily have something in place that appears on  Gov website, front of newspapers and on national news sites & SM. Everyone would see it daily and know each day where we are.


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Personally I wouldn’t and have no intention of travelling abroad, the Government should be commended for acting so quickly over the Spanish figures, but I can see why some people are frustrated when parts of Spain have a lower coronavirus rates than some parts of England.

I don’t know the answer but the Government seem stuck between a rock and a hard place.
		
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As you might expect, I have rather less sympathy for the Govt position. All along, the Govt has lurched between breezy positivity and dire warnings. They needed a constant, calm and rational message but that just isn't their style.

For weeks, the public message has been of contracting air bridges and quarantine free travel in order to allow people to have holidays. It was obvious all along that a second wave or a bump in the first wave was likely if not inevitable. I believe therefore that the Govt gave an unreasonably positive message to the average punter, who does not go to the FCO website and assumed, reasonably, that of the airlines were allowed to fly and if some countries were on a green list, it was OK. What is needed is Johnson to stand up and tell people that ALL overseas travel anywhere is strongly discouraged unless critical, and that anyone who does travel will need full and comprehensive insurance for health, repatriation and anything else that may happen. He should also instruct travel companies and airlines to offer refunds to people who have booked and wish to cancel. 

The Canary Islands are farther away from the current outbreak areas (Catalonia, Aragon) than London is. The infection rate in the Canaries is approx 8 per 100k, compared to 240 per 100k in Aragon and around 11 per 100k in the UK. There is no logical reason to sweep up the Canaries in this quarantine, which is unenforced and unenforceable anyway. Testing on return is a waste of time.

I have no plans to go on an overseas holiday this year unless there is a dramatic change.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Logically, I can see the govt altering the advice to a blanket ban on Spanish travel to a more localised one. There is no reason for the islands to be included, their numbers are well below the UK. Equally, Andalucia is also well below the UK so allow people to fly to Malaga. The ban brought in is a little like Spain blocking the UK because of spikes in Leicester and Blackburn.

Saying all that, anyone going anywhere abroad right now is taking a risk and people trying to claim otherwise and blaming the govt for this are deluding themselves.
		
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Wolf said:



			Think you've summed it pretty well there.

We were due to fly out in 3 days time to Spain, but we cancelled it even after it was given the ok to go because we knew there was a chance restrictions could return so wasn't worth the risk of 14 days loss of pay.

As LT says perhaps they can look at something regional in perhaps allowing Island not mainland, mind you people will moan about that to being restrictive. But whatever they choose to do your last sentence nails it they are in a rock and a hard place and will get the blame regardless as people don't want to be at fault for their own poor decisions.
		
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Ethan said:



			As you might expect, I have rather less sympathy for the Govt position. All along, the Govt has lurched between breezy positivity and dire warnings. They needed a constant, calm and rational message but that just isn't their style.

For weeks, the public message has been of contracting air bridges and quarantine free travel in order to allow people to have holidays. It was obvious all along that a second wave or a bump in the first wave was likely if not inevitable. I believe therefore that the Govt gave an unreasonably positive message to the average punter, who does not go to the FCO website and assumed, reasonably, that of the airlines were allowed to fly and if some countries were on a green list, it was OK.

The Canary Islands are farther away from the current outbreak areas (Catalonia, Aragon) than London is. The infection rate in the Canaries is approx 8 per 100k, compared to 240 per 100k in Aragon and around 11 per 100k in the UK. There is no logical reason to sweep up the Canaries in this quarantine, which is unenforced and unenforceable anyway. Testing on return is a waste of time.

it seems to me the main risk of holidays in the Canaries are the flights. I have no plans to go on an overseas holiday this year unless there is a dramatic change.
		
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I agree with all the above, I do also have sympathy for those who have travelled and looked at the risks, ie, you live near Blackburn (for example) you have the chance to go for a break (for whatever reason deserved/undeserved) the place you are going is, in theory, safer than were you live and now because of a blanket ban you’re isolating when getting home.

I don’t blame the Government, as much as I am no supporter of them, but if blanket bans are going to be switched on and off Countries around the World for the foreseeable future something needs to change, that approach could decimate the travel industry.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			You may have made it up, but that could work in a very similar way to the military "Bikini" alert systems where the colour codes are used to highlight the current alert state.

Could easily have something in place that appears on  Gov website, front of newspapers and on national news sites & SM. Everyone would see it daily and know each day where we are.
		
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Do the government not already have a traffic light system for travel...?  It's been in place for a month or so but I cant recall seeing much in the way of 'in your face' publicly highlighting of amber and red countries... 

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...might-get-the-green-light-for-travel-12015872


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do the government not already have a traffic light system for travel...?  It's been in place for a month or so but I cant recall seeing much in the way of 'in your face' publicly highlighting of amber and red countries...

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...might-get-the-green-light-for-travel-12015872

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They do but its not much cop and its not exactly easy to find or understand for many especially as Amber and green both mean the same thing. 

If they put in an active alert system akin to the bikini system and had it in the daily paper, bbc & other news sites home pages and on SM it would solve many issues.


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## DanFST (Jul 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			They do but its not much cop and its not exactly easy to find or understand for many especially as Amber and green both mean the same thing.

If they put in an active alert system akin to the bikini system and had it in the daily paper, bbc & other news sites home pages and on SM it would solve many issues.
		
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I'm not convinced, some people would ignore the risks whatever the government said, go abroad and then complain.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I'm not convinced, some people would ignore the risks whatever the government said, go abroad and then complain.
		
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Oh I don't doubt that whatsoever. But what it would do is support the government, travel companies & insurers in that they all can say you had adequate warning and were aware.

There however will always be muppets that can't accept personal responsibility.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			They do but its not much cop and its not exactly easy to find or understand for many especially as Amber and green both mean the same thing.

If they put in an active alert system akin to the bikini system and had it in the daily paper, bbc & other news sites home pages and on SM it would solve many issues.
		
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You mean one of these good and sensible ideas that either hasn't fully been thought through or properly implemented


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Oh I don't doubt that whatsoever. But what it would do is support the government, travel companies & insurers in that they all can say you had and were aware.

There however will always be muppets that can't accept personal responsibility.
		
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I cannot criticise those who decide to travel abroad - that is their own individual choice given their personal circumstances - family, financial and work-wise, based upon their own risk assessment given all the information and advice that they have been provided with.  But that information and advice needs to be clear and unambiguous.  Otherwise risk of misunderstanding and confusion.


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## rudebhoy (Jul 28, 2020)

honest question - does the FCO advising against all but essential travel mean that folks' insurance could / would be invalid if they travel after the advice was issued?


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## Neilds (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			honest question - does the FCO advising against all but essential travel mean that folks' insurance could / would be invalid if they travel after the advice was issued?
		
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It will certainly invalidate the insurance. Not that companies need much of an excuse not to pay out


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			honest question - does the FCO advising against all but essential travel mean that folks' insurance could / would be invalid if they travel after the advice was issued?
		
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Yes it does. This is a massive thing that people really should be taking notice of. Double check with your insurers but potentially it means you have no medical cover, no theft cover, no cover for anything.


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## Billysboots (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			honest question - does the FCO advising against all but essential travel mean that folks' insurance could / would be invalid if they travel after the advice was issued?
		
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I’d say that’s a racing certainty. And anyone who travels uninsured in these uncertain times, frankly, deserves all they get.

Still, I suppose anyone who travels now to Benidorm against government advice can always set up a crowd funding page to pay their medical and repatriation costs when it all goes horribly wrong.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’d say that’s a racing certainty. And anyone who travels uninsured in these uncertain times, frankly, deserves all they get.

Still, I suppose anyone who travels now to Benidorm against government advice can always set up a crowd funding page to pay their medical and repatriation costs when it all goes horribly wrong.



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It would not be a summer without a story on your local news about someone looking sad in a Spanish / Portugese hospital who 'did not think they needed insurance' and now has a huge bill they can not pay and is asking via FB for people to pay it. Happens every year, crackers 

Up here we always get a few of these plus cars getting submerged crossing Holy Island causeway and the rescue services having to pick up the muppets who thought they could make it. It would not be summer without either story.


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## rudebhoy (Jul 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes it does. This is a massive thing that people really should be taking notice of. Double check with your insurers but potentially it means you have no medical cover, no theft cover, no cover for anything.
		
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suspected that would be the case, and was surprised it's not been highlighted more in the media. 

Unbelievable (or maybe not) that Ryanair have come out and said they are going to continue flying to Spain.


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## GB72 (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			suspected that would be the case, and was surprised it's not been highlighted more in the media.

Unbelievable (or maybe not) that Ryanair have come out and said they are going to continue flying to Spain.
		
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Only rumours I heard and may be no truth to it but stories going around that Ryan Air were flying empty flights during some of the lockdown to avoid paying refunds (the flight left, we did our bit, no money back).


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			suspected that would be the case, and was surprised it's not been highlighted more in the media.

Unbelievable (or maybe not) that Ryanair have come out and said they are going to continue flying to Spain.
		
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Totally agree. Financially dangerous to go abroad without insurance. It is bad enough how many go without it. Now you are throwing in those who have it but don't realise it is invalid.


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## GB72 (Jul 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Totally agree. Financially dangerous to go abroad without insurance. It is bad enough how many go without it. Now you are throwing in those who have it but don't realise it is invalid.
		
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I would be doubtful that many policies would cover covid even if they were valid for other reasons so the risk would be pretty big even with a valid policy in place.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I would be doubtful that many policies would cover covid even if they were valid for other reasons so the risk would be pretty big even with a valid policy in place.
		
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Your insurance would cover you for Covid treatment though surely, if you go somewhere where your insurance is still valid of course? That would come under general illnesses, or whatever phrase they use. The only Covid related matter that may not be covered is cancellation cover if your insurance was taken after the pandemic. If taken before, and your holiday was booked before then many policies will cover you still, although not all.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The Canary Islands are farther away from the current outbreak areas (Catalonia, Aragon) than London is. The infection rate in the Canaries is approx 8 per 100k, compared to 240 per 100k in Aragon and around 11 per 100k in the UK. There is no logical reason to sweep up the Canaries in this quarantine, which is unenforced and unenforceable anyway. Testing on return is a waste of time.

.
		
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Spaniards holiday in the Canaries (and the Balearics) as well. With the ease of internal travel its perfectly conceivable that there could be a new spike about to hit the islands due to people travelling from a 'hot' area but not yet displaying symptoms/ being asymptomatic.
Tough call by the govt but the right one imo.


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## GB72 (Jul 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Your insurance would cover you for Covid treatment though surely, if you go somewhere where your insurance is still valid of course? That would come under general illnesses, or whatever phrase they use. The only Covid related matter that may not be covered is cancellation cover if your insurance was taken after the pandemic. If taken before, and your holiday was booked before then many policies will cover you still, although not all.
		
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Not sure, heard a few news stories about covid being excluded for bookings since the pandemic and subsequent policies. Would be worth checking.


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Spaniards holiday in the Canaries (and the Balearics) as well. With the ease of internal travel its perfectly conceivable that there could be a new spike about to hit the islands due to people travelling from a 'hot' area but not yet displaying symptoms/ being asymptomatic.
Tough call by the govt but the right one imo.
		
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The case rates are what they are. People in a number of parts of the UK would be safer in Tenerife than staying at home. People from Leicester go to Blackpool or Cornwall. People from Barcelona and Aragon can drive across the border to France, which is right next to them, but travel there and back is still fine.

The risk of a second wave in the UK is not from returning holidaymakers, but from the residual disease in the community held in check by social distancing but now more likely to spread again.

Wrong call by the Govt, imo, on the same list as many previous wrong calls on Covid.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure, heard a few news stories about covid being excluded for bookings since the pandemic and subsequent policies. Would be worth checking.
		
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If that is for medical treatment then that is pretty scandalous. If it is about cancellations then I can understand that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes it does. This is a massive thing that people really should be taking notice of. Double check with your insurers but potentially it means you have no medical cover, no theft cover, no cover for anything.
		
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Does our EHIC card not still give us medical cover in Spain - no matter what the UK government says about travel to specific countries...?


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does our EHIC card not still give us medical cover in Spain - no matter what the UK government says about travel to specific countries...?
		
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Until end of transition in Dec 20.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does our EHIC card not still give us medical cover in Spain - no matter what the UK government says about travel to specific countries...?
		
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It gives basic cover but no more than that. It also advises that you may be required to pay towards some of the treatment required. As that could be thousands or tens of thousands of Euros then it should not be relied upon to get people out of trouble if ill abroad.

The link below advises what is covered but they repeatedly mention taking your own insurance, not reyling on the card alone.

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/he...r-a-free-ehic-european-health-insurance-card/


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## AmandaJR (Jul 28, 2020)

Individual redundancy consultation on Friday - at last. Will feel more settled knowing when and how much. Then I can decide how outraged to be!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 28, 2020)

I have a very sore shin.

Lady Doon went out owt today, first time she needed to wear a mask.
She puts it on and asks 'How do I look'
'Much better' was probably not the reply she expected.


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Individual redundancy consultation on Friday - at last. Will feel more settled knowing when and how much. Then I can decide how outraged to be!
		
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Don't waste your time being outraged Amanda. They won't be bumping their gums about you when they get home, pointless wasting your life/time on them. Book a meal somewhere nice, or stay in and crack a really good bottle of wine with some nice cheeses.

Very best wishes for Friday...


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have a very sore shin.

Lady Doon went out owt today, first time she needed to wear a mask.
She puts it on and asks 'How do I look'
'Much better' was probably not the reply she expected.
		
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I may have pee'd a little bit. Nice one Doon!


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## Old Skier (Jul 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			As you might expect, I have rather less sympathy for the Govt position. All along, the Govt has lurched between breezy positivity and dire warnings. They needed a constant, calm and rational message but that just isn't their style.

For weeks, the public message has been of contracting air bridges and quarantine free travel in order to allow people to have holidays. It was obvious all along that a second wave or a bump in the first wave was likely if not inevitable. I believe therefore that the Govt gave an unreasonably positive message to the average punter, who does not go to the FCO website and assumed, reasonably, that of the airlines were allowed to fly and if some countries were on a green list, it was OK. What is needed is Johnson to stand up and tell people that ALL overseas travel anywhere is strongly discouraged unless critical, and that anyone who does travel will need full and comprehensive insurance for health, repatriation and anything else that may happen. He should also instruct travel companies and airlines to offer refunds to people who have booked and wish to cancel.

The Canary Islands are farther away from the current outbreak areas (Catalonia, Aragon) than London is. The infection rate in the Canaries is approx 8 per 100k, compared to 240 per 100k in Aragon and around 11 per 100k in the UK. There is no logical reason to sweep up the Canaries in this quarantine, which is unenforced and unenforceable anyway. Testing on return is a waste of time.

I have no plans to go on an overseas holiday this year unless there is a dramatic change.
		
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Figures given on BBC for UK is 8 per 100K


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## pauljames87 (Jul 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Think you've summed it pretty well there.

We were due to fly out in 3 days time to Spain, but we cancelled it even after it was given the ok to go because we knew there was a chance restrictions could return so wasn't worth the risk of 14 days loss of pay.

As LT says perhaps they can look at something regional in perhaps allowing Island not mainland, mind you people will moan about that to being restrictive. But whatever they choose to do your last sentence nails it they are in a rock and a hard place and will get the blame regardless as people don't want to be at fault for their own poor decisions.
		
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People are ridiculous

They HAVE to have holidays. It drives me mental... Oh I can't cope If I don't get some sun. Do me a blooming favour 

I'm glad companies and gov have said right If you have to isolate on return then it's unpaid as it was a choice to go abroad 

People have already moaned why am I being punished for following the law. This is different..this isn't like self isolate for 14 days if you have symptoms this is a choice you made. You decided to go abroad.... The gov shouldn't bail you out if you get caught out.

Foreign travel should be banned until may next year minimum. Keep the virus contained to countries.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Don't waste your time being outraged Amanda. They won't be bumping their gums about you when they get home, pointless wasting your life/time on them. Book a meal somewhere nice, or stay in and crack a really good bottle of wine with some nice cheeses.

Very best wishes for Friday...
		
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You are 100% right but it's hard. Given so much of my life to that place. Without blowing my own trumpet I've given exemplary service and have seen the company grow...sadly into the horrible place it is now. It would just be nice to feel even a hint of gratitude. I'm prepared for the worst though!

Thank you.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			People are ridiculous

They HAVE to have holidays. It drives me mental... Oh I can't cope If I don't get some sun. Do me a blooming favour

I'm glad companies and gov have said right If you have to isolate on return then it's unpaid as it was a choice to go abroad

People have already moaned why am I being punished for following the law. This is different..this isn't like self isolate for 14 days if you have symptoms this is a choice you made. You decided to go abroad.... The gov shouldn't bail you out if you get caught out.

Foreign travel should be banned until may next year minimum. Keep the virus contained to countries.
		
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Top post. Agree 100% on all counts. Especially the bit about people moaning "they have to get away" No you don't. Plenty of wonderful (and arguably safer) places in the UK if you have to get away from your house. Anything else is a lottery with your health in my opinion and you know the implications if you decide to travel abroad


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			People are ridiculous

They HAVE to have holidays. It drives me mental... Oh I can't cope If I don't get some sun. Do me a blooming favour

I'm glad companies and gov have said right If you have to isolate on return then it's unpaid as it was a choice to go abroad

People have already moaned why am I being punished for following the law. This is different..this isn't like self isolate for 14 days if you have symptoms this is a choice you made. You decided to go abroad.... The gov shouldn't bail you out if you get caught out.

Foreign travel should be banned until may next year minimum. Keep the virus contained to countries.
		
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What about the families who live apart? What about their mental health, people don’t only travel abroad for holidays.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What about the families who live apart? What about their mental health, people don’t only travel abroad for holidays.
		
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Full sympathy for those who travel aboard for family reasons HOWEVER I'd say that's only 10% of those effected.

Also those won't be the people complaining about it!!!



HomerJSimpson said:



			Top post. Agree 100% on all counts. Especially the bit about people moaning "they have to get away" No you don't. Plenty of wonderful (and arguably safer) places in the UK if you have to get away from your house. Anything else is a lottery with your health in my opinion and you know the implications if you decide to travel abroad
		
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Exactly. The UK is a beautiful place. Plus if more people travel in this country won't it boost OUR economy rather than another countries? ... The gov is just trying imo to prop up the travel industry


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Full sympathy for those who travel aboard for family reasons HOWEVER I'd say that's only 10% of those effected.

Also those won't be the people complaining about it!!!



Exactly. The UK is a beautiful place. Plus if more people travel in this country won't it boost OUR economy rather than another countries? ... The gov is just trying imo to prop up the travel industry
		
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How does it help the 10% if foreign travel is banned.

And why won’t they be complaining, their jobs could be on the line when they return.

Maybe, just maybe the situation isn’t as black n white as we’d like to believe.


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## Beezerk (Jul 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Top post. Agree 100% on all counts. Especially the bit about people moaning "they have to get away" No you don't. Plenty of wonderful (and arguably safer) places in the UK if you have to get away from your house. Anything else is a lottery with your health in my opinion and you know the implications if you decide to travel abroad
		
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Lad I play football with lost his father a few weeks ago, his parents live in Spain and he hadn't seen them since February so it's been really tough for him recently. He was going for a long weekend this Thursday but he's cancelled due to the quarantine thing, he isn't happy but saw it as the sensible thing to do.


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## Rlburnside (Jul 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			As you might expect, I have rather less sympathy for the Govt position. All along, the Govt has lurched between breezy positivity and dire warnings. They needed a constant, calm and rational message 
For weeks, the public message has been of contracting air bridges and quarantine free travel in order to allow people to have holidays. It was obvious all along that a second wave or a bump in the first wave was likely if not inevitable. I believe therefore that the Govt gave an unreasonably positive message to the average punter, who does not go to the FCO website and assumed, reasonably, that of the airlines were allowed to fly and if some countries were on a green list, it was OK. What is needed is Johnson to stand up and tell people that ALL overseas travel anywhere is strongly discouraged unless critical, and that anyone who does travel will need full and comprehensive insurance for health, repatriation and anything else that may happen. He should also instruct travel companies and airlines to offer refunds to people who have booked and wish to cancel. 

The Canary Islands are farther away from the current outbreak areas (Catalonia, Aragon) than London is. The infection rate in the Canaries is approx 8 per 100k, compared to 240 per 100k in Aragon and around 11 per 100k in the UK. There is no logical reason to sweep up the Canaries in this quarantine, which is unenforced and unenforceable anyway. Testing on return is a waste of time.

I have no plans to go on an overseas holiday this year unless there is a dramatic change.
		
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Some good points which i agree with most of your comments but what I would say is just because the FCO said it was ok to travel it was never without risk. 

It amazes me sometimes when people trust what politicians tell them and don’t think for themselves.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Lad I play football with lost his father a few weeks ago, his parents live in Spain and he hadn't seen them since February so it's been really tough for him recently. He was going for a long weekend this Thursday but he's cancelled due to the quarantine thing, he isn't happy but saw it as the sensible thing to do.
		
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See, this is a totally different kettle of fish completely to the family of four who assume it is their "right" to be in Spain on holiday every year regardless of whatever else is happening. I have a mate and his wife who own a property in Fuerteventura with a view to retiring soon and moving out. He's my best mate in the world (especially now I have no parent) and if anything happened to him or his wife I'd want to be out there to help and for me it would be like losing a brother so I get it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			See, this is a totally different kettle of fish completely to the family of four who assume it is their "right" to be in Spain on holiday every year regardless of whatever else is happening. I have a mate and his wife who own a property in Fuerteventura with a view to retiring soon and moving out. He's my best mate in the world (especially now I have no parent) and if anything happened to him or his wife I'd want to be out there to help and for me it would be like losing a brother so I get it.
		
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Which is why it’s daft, imo, to 100% agree and call a post a top post when it suggests banning all foreign travel until next May.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			People are ridiculous

They HAVE to have holidays. It drives me mental... Oh I can't cope If I don't get some sun. Do me a blooming favour

I'm glad companies and gov have said right If you have to isolate on return then it's unpaid as it was a choice to go abroad

People have already moaned why am I being punished for following the law. This is different..this isn't like self isolate for 14 days if you have symptoms this is a choice you made. You decided to go abroad.... The gov shouldn't bail you out if you get caught out.

*Foreign travel should be banned until may next year minimum*. Keep the virus contained to countries.
		
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Ridiculous idea and things just aren't that simple or black and white. Just because that would probably suit you doesn't mean   it suits everyone, the economy, amount of jobs that would cost and the mental impact as well it could have on so many people and not just because they want a holiday.

I should add to that there are many places in UK with higher Covid-19 rates than other countries or Spanish islands, so they'd be w safer place to visit than many places here at home. Whats the suggestion there ban all UK tourism as well 🙄


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Which is why it’s daft, imo, to 100% agree and call a post a top post when it suggests banning all foreign travel until next May.
		
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Because in generic terms there is no absolute need for people to go there other than it's what they do every year. I have a sister in law in San Diego, and I know HID would move heaven and earth to try and get there if it was safe to do so if anything happened her sister or the kids. If it's a family death/serious illness that is a whole different thing. I'm talking about those wanting to go to Spain or elsewhere by choice and then moaning about the inconvenience of quarantine after


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because in generic terms there is no absolute need for people to go there other than it's what they do every year. I have a sister in law in San Diego, and I know HID would move heaven and earth to try and get there if it was safe to do so if anything happened her sister or the kids. If it's a family death/serious illness that is a whole different thing. I'm talking about those wanting to go to Spain or elsewhere by choice and then moaning about the inconvenience of quarantine after
		
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And the post you 100% agreed with made no distinction and stated all foreign travel.
The Government quarantine rules on return make no distinction between holiday and family emergency.


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## Papas1982 (Jul 28, 2020)

imo The only blame lies with the government.

They opened travel rights and therefore invalidated everyone’s right to a refund. Travel agencies weren’t gong to give a penny back to anyone who was officially allowed to travel.

As to it being safer in The uk. really? We are statistically far more in trouble than many other countries and we also had significantly weaker policies to protect us.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 28, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			imo The only blame lies with the government.

They opened travel rights and therefore invalidated everyone’s right to a refund. Travel agencies weren’t gong to give a penny back to anyone who was officially allowed to travel.

As to it being safer in The uk. really? We are statistically far more in trouble than many other countries and we also had significantly weaker policies to protect us.
		
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Whilst we may not be safer in the UK at least covid wouldn't be being spread from country to country 

Contain rather than let spread all round the world again and again


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## Papas1982 (Jul 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst we may not be safer in the UK at least covid wouldn't be being spread from country to country

*Contain rather than let spread all round the world again and again*

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I fully agree that policy should have been made clear. which Would have been safer for people, but that isn’t what was said by homer. He implied uk trips were safer places, which simply isn’t the case.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because in generic terms there is no absolute need for people to go there other than it's what they do every year. I have a sister in law in San Diego, and I know HID would move heaven and earth to try and get there if it was safe to do so if anything happened her sister or the kids. If it's a family death/serious illness that is a whole different thing. *I'm talking about those wanting to go to Spain or elsewhere by choice and then moaning about the inconvenience of quarantine after*

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So a quick Google will give you the current figures that prove your argument doesn't hold up.
Currently as of today there are 745 confirmed cases of Covid-19 in South West, England. A place that going by your previous post would be a suitable place for a stay at home holiday as its UK based. Somewhere we could all rock up to tomorrow if we so wished.

Lanzarote current number of Covid19 cases = 6.... To add further context the entire number of cases combined across the whole of the Canary Islands is 74!

So an entire group of Islands that travel is banned to because they're "Spanish" is banned because of increased risk of Covid-19, yet 1 region in England has over 10 times that amount alone, but we can all go there at will!

I'd suggest its not as cut and dried as you think and others think, there are other things to consider before we all go calling for blanket bans, ruining economy, jobs, mental health and other things. We need to look at what's going on at home as much if not more than abroad...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 28, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So a quick Google will give you the current figures that prove your argument doesn't hold up.
Currently as of today there are 745 confirmed cases of Covid-19 in South West, England. A place that going by your previous post would be a suitable place for a stay at home holiday as its UK based. Somewhere we could all rock up to tomorrow if we so wished.

Lanzarote current number of Covid19 cases = 6.... To add further context the entire number of cases combined across the whole of the Canary Islands is 74!

So an entire group of Islands that travel is banned yo because they're "Spanish" is banned because of increased risk of Covid-19, yet 1 region in England has over 10 times that amount alone, but we can all go there at will!

I'd suggest its not as cut and dried as you think and others think, there are other things to consider before we all go calling for blanket bans, ruining economy, jobs, mental health and other things. We need to look at what's going on at home as much if not more than abroad...
		
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Whole of the UK to choose from aside from the South West. As you say a simple google check would give anyone a clue where the potential hot spots are and plan elsewhere accordingly. For the record I don't understand the government's blanket Spanish ban but that is the current ruling


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

3 weeks ago there were 4 outbreaks in Spain. Apparently all were contained. Within 4-5 days there were 11 outbreaks, with major concerns over 2 of them.

Today, the Spanish govt announced there are 324 outbreaks in different cities, towns and villages across Spain. Many of them are deemed not to be contained as they can't identify the source of the infection early enough because they are swamped. Here in Andalucia we currently have the quickest moving number of outbreaks, and that's from having the fewest. We're also seeing a significant rise in hospital admissions. So what changed here in Andalucia? The Spanish from Northern Spain started arriving 4 weeks ago as their holiday season got underway - you can tell them a mile off - pink Spaniards, just weird. Things are changing almost daily here. Whatever Sanchez is saying to Boris about how wrong it is for the UK to impose a quarantine definitely isn't what the Spanish govt are saying to the people here.

If you go back to late Feb you'll see numbers very similar to today. Remember what happened through late March, April and May??!!?? Why won't that be mirrored in a month's time.

As for someone's stupid comment about the expats not caring about not being able to see their families. If that idiot had been at the bowls club this morning they would have heard at least 6 out of 19 people bemoaning the fact their families couldn't fly out. And 2 people complaining about flights they had booked to the UK for next week. In the last 4 months 3 of my children have had their flights cancelled, ditto with 2 lots of friends. It would have been nice to see our eldest daughter, who told us a few weeks ago she's pregnant. But hey, who's complaining? Hopefully get across for the birth in November... but if the current outbreaks mirror Feb, March etc a 4 month lockdown will take us through to Dec. But hey, who's complaining?

"Wohoo! Come and visit Spain, you'll be fine. By the way there are 2 cities and 4 towns in Leicester style lockdown, but you'll be fine."


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Whole of the UK to choose from aside from the South West. As you say a simple google check would give anyone a clue where the potential hot spots are and plan elsewhere accordingly. For the record I don't understand the government's blanket Spanish ban but that is the current ruling
		
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I used SW as quick reference as its a popular holiday spot. There are many more places throughout the whole of the UK that are still far worse than many parts of Spain. But that's ok is it! Im sorry Homer but you're just showing yourself up by trying to blindly defend a point when you state you don't understand the blanket Ban, but then promote holidays at home which has higher infection rates than many of the destinations people could go to.

But taking your own point people can look at higher infected areas and plan accordingly, well by doing that planning I can see its safer for my family to holiday outside of the UK!

Like I said not as simple as you seem to think it is...


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## pauljames87 (Jul 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			3 weeks ago there were 4 outbreaks in Spain. Apparently all were contained. Within 4-5 days there were 11 outbreaks, with major concerns over 2 of them.

Today, the Spanish govt announced there are 324 outbreaks in different cities, towns and villages across Spain. Many of them are deemed not to be contained as they can't identify the source of the infection early enough because they are swamped. Here in Andalucia we currently have the quickest moving number of outbreaks, and that's from having the fewest. We're also seeing a significant rise in hospital admissions. So what changed here in Andalucia? The Spanish from Northern Spain started arriving 4 weeks ago as their holiday season got underway - you can tell them a mile off - pink Spaniards, just weird. Things are changing almost daily here. Whatever Sanchez is saying to Boris about how wrong it is for the UK to impose a quarantine definitely isn't what the Spanish govt are saying to the people here.

If you go back to late Feb you'll see numbers very similar to today. Remember what happened through late March, April and May??!!?? Why won't that be mirrored in a month's time.

As for someone's stupid comment about the expats not caring about not being able to see their families. If that idiot had been at the bowls club this morning they would have heard at least 6 out of 19 people bemoaning the fact their families couldn't fly out. And 2 people complaining about flights they had booked to the UK for next week. In the last 4 months 3 of my children have had their flights cancelled, ditto with 2 lots of friends. It would have been nice to see our eldest daughter, who told us a few weeks ago she's pregnant. But hey, who's complaining? Hopefully get across for the birth in November... but if the current outbreaks mirror Feb, March etc a 4 month lockdown will take us through to Dec. But hey, who's complaining?

"Wohoo! Come and visit Spain, you'll be fine. By the way there are 2 cities and 4 towns in Leicester style lockdown, but you'll be fine."
		
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For the record I never said those affected wouldn't care. I said they wouldn't be complaining as much. They understand the risks more. They see what is happening in their country and understand why decisions have been made.

Where as Gavin from Blackpool can't understand why him and Tracey can't have a Beano to ibizi for a week because they "need" a break from being furloughed for 3 months without the ability to go get some sun.

There is needs like seeing family and wants like going on holiday . 

The needing to see family is far more important and those will care but I bet they complain a darn sight less


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			For the record I never said those affected wouldn't care. I said they wouldn't be complaining as much. They understand the risks more. They see what is happening in their country and understand why decisions have been made.

Where as Gavin from Blackpool can't understand why him and Tracey can't have a Beano to ibizi for a week because they "need" a break from being furloughed for 3 months without the ability to go get some sun.

There is needs like seeing family and wants like going on holiday .

The needing to see family is far more important and those will care but I bet they complain a darn sight less
		
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See post #8087. 

For the record you said, "Also those won't be the people complaining about it!!! "

Is that "they wouldn't be complaining as much," as you posted above, or as you posted, "Also those won't be the people complaining about it." You tell me, its in black and white for you to read.

For the record, sometimes you should just hold your hands up when you make a mistake. It stops you looking like a bigger Richard.


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## Wolf (Jul 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			For the record I never said those affected wouldn't care. I said they wouldn't be complaining as much. They understand the risks more. They see what is happening in their country and understand why decisions have been made.

Where as Gavin from Blackpool can't understand why him and Tracey can't have a Beano to *ibizi* for a week because they "need" a break from being furloughed for 3 months without the ability to go get some sun.

There is needs like seeing family and wants like going on holiday .

The needing to see family is far more important and those will care but I bet they complain a darn sight less
		
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Interesting choices of location Ibiza current cases = 7
Lancashire has recorded 32 new cases this week alone already and its only Tuesday.. That on top of the fact its one of the worst regions in the country already for high numbers.. Would suggest Gavin from Blackpool is safer in Ibiza. 🤷🏻‍♂️

We get you think it should all be banned but you can't seem to see past your own blinkered view to understand its not just about wanting a holiday there is far more to consider about how it affects this country and another.

Maybe Gavin needs a break for his mental health, maybe Gavin has osteoarthritis and heat helps to relieve his pain. Maybe he done what Homer says and googled less infected areas to take his family somewhere safer than Blackpool pleasure Beach and sees it as a safer destination than anywhere in the UK as there numbers are far lower, who knows 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Interesting choices of location Ibiza current cases = 7
Lancashire has recorded 32 new cases this week alone already and its only Tuesday.. That on top of the fact its one of the worst regions in the country already for high numbers.. Would suggest Gavin from Blackpool is safer in Ibiza. 🤷🏻‍♂️

We get you think it should all be banned but you can't seem to see past your own blinkered view to understand its not just about wanting a holiday there is far more to consider about how it affects this country and another.

Maybe Gavin needs a break for his mental health, maybe Gavin has osteoarthritis and heat helps to relieve his pain. Maybe he done what Homer says and googled less infected areas to take his family somewhere safer than Blackpool pleasure Beach and sees it as a safer destination than anywhere in the UK as there numbers are far lower, who knows 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
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My view may be "blinkered" but there is far too much foreign travel for the sake of it. Buisness trips to smooze clients rather than over zoom, email etc. Holidaying in England became so expensive so going abroad was the cheaper option and more preferable for people.

My problem is we are just rushing back to "normal" soon as travel was lifted people booked holidays then moaned if they then get told it's cancelled .. for those who had it pre booked and was never cancelled I feel for them as their trapped between a rock and a hard place... But still we are rushing back. Look at the buisnesses who already are trying to get face to face meetings back up rather than just a zoom call. Because it's the norm.

We are dangerously close to having a second wave sooner rather than later .. the gov understandably wants some economic recover but it seems so much to soon. 



Hobbit said:



			See post #8087. 

For the record you said, "Also those won't be the people complaining about it!!! "

Is that "they wouldn't be complaining as much," as you posted above, or as you posted, "Also those won't be the people complaining about it." You tell me, its in black and white for you to read.

For the record, sometimes you should just hold your hands up when you make a mistake. It stops you looking like a bigger Richard.
		
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Yes I should have posted they wouldn't be complaining as much. Apologises for missing that.

The majority of complaints you hear are from those not in that situation. Also those aren't then the ones who seem to be running to the press


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## bobmac (Jul 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We are dangerously close to having a second wave sooner rather than later .. the gov understandably wants some economic recover but it seems so much to soon.
		
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Where did you get that from?


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

8,200 new cases diagnosed yesterday.

Spanish Health Minister, Salvador Illa, praises UK govt for imposing the quarantine.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Where did you get that from?
		
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Seems to be all over the press that the PM is concerned about the rising cases in Europe 

Germany are worried about their numbers 

Spain we have already said numbers are too high (decision by our chief medical officer)

Rising local increased measures here up north in Oldham was it? And Blackburn a step down from a local lockdown


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			8,200 new cases diagnosed yesterday.

Spanish Health Minister, Salvador Illa, praises UK govt for imposing the quarantine.
		
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How does that compare with your early numbers back in march etc?


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## Crazyface (Jul 29, 2020)

Well as a response to the original question, it made me find a bit of a job, as I was bored, and this is carrying on now and I'm getting more hours (from August 12th , just after my birthday), and it's the hours and days I want, and I get 15% all food and wine. 

Happy Days


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## rudebhoy (Jul 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Spanish Health Minister, Salvador Illa, praises UK govt for imposing the quarantine.
		
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Was he referring specifically to Catalonia? Seems totally at odds with what the Spanish PM was saying.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			How does that compare with your early numbers back in march etc?
		
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On March 16th, the first day of full lockdown, the total of new cases was 1,954. The current 7 day rolling average is just over 3k. Sat/Sun/Mon numbers are typically very low due to the reporting methods. One day prior to the weekend it was over 4k, with 2 other days over 2k.

For local numbers I use the Junta de Almeria health service website. Its lists by town/village (municipality). And importantly, it lists new infections within 14 days, giving an indication if a case is now considered past. Lots of new ones showing up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			On March 16th, the first day of full lockdown, the total of new cases was 1,954. The current 7 day rolling average is just over 3k. Sat/Sun/Mon numbers are typically very low due to the reporting methods. One day prior to the weekend it was over 4k, with 2 other days over 2k.

For local numbers I use the Junta de Almeria health service website. Its lists by town/village (municipality). And importantly, it lists new infections within 14 days, giving an indication if a case is now considered past. Lots of new ones showing up.
		
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Is it being played down by the No of tests being carried out?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			8,200 new cases diagnosed yesterday.

Spanish Health Minister, Salvador Illa, praises UK govt for imposing the quarantine.
		
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pauljames87 said:



			How does that compare with your early numbers back in march etc?
		
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Not that I'm doubting you Hobbit (well obviously I am by typing this) but that number seems horrendously high. Accoring to the Worldometers website Spain had a peak of 8271 new cases on March 26th. Seems very worrying if you are back up to that level. I assume that increases testing could be part of the reason and will need to wait a couple of weeks to see what happens with the deaths figures to get a clearer picture. Worldometers 'only' showing 1828 new cases for Spain for yesterday.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it being played down by the No of tests being carried out?
		
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The number of tests is high. When a case is reported, everyone in the family, the neighbours, the shops they use and the bars they frequent are tested. Many are asymptomatic. Whether that's because their symptoms haven't developed or they are just carriers I don't know.

When there is a rise in cases I try and correlate it against hospital admissions to gauge how serious it is. Although they are going up they are lagging further behind than in March.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not that I'm doubting you Hobbit (well obviously I am by typing this) but that number seems horrendously high. Accoring to the Worldometers website Spain had a peak of 8271 new cases on March 26th. Seems very worrying if you are back up to that level. I assume that increases testing could be part of the reason and will need to wait a couple of weeks to see what happens with the deaths figures to get a clearer picture. Worldometers 'only' showing 1828 new cases for Spain for yesterday.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/

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I'm very sceptical of the Worldometer numbers. Having the Junta de Almeria website on my favourite's page means I see the dept of health's numbers for the province. And I get all of Andalucia, which is right across Southern Spain. The numbers on the official health pages don't marry up to Worldometer pages, e.g. when Worldometer was indicating no deaths there was still the odd death showing across the region. Add in the rest of Spain and there's quite a divergence in the numbers.

But I'm just a member of Joe Public trying to navigate through various sources. I could be wrong too.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Was he referring specifically to Catalonia? Seems totally at odds with what the Spanish PM was saying.
		
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He didn't mention any specific region or province last night.

It is very much at odds with what Sanchez is saying but Spain is on the quarantine list for quite a number of countries now. Are they all wrong? I don't know.


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## IainP (Jul 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'm very sceptical of the Worldometer numbers. Having the Junta de Almeria website on my favourite's page means I see the dept of health's numbers for the province. And I get all of Andalucia, which is right across Southern Spain. The numbers on the official health pages don't marry up to Worldometer pages, e.g. when Worldometer was indicating no deaths there was still the odd death showing across the region. Add in the rest of Spain and there's quite a divergence in the numbers.

But I'm just a member of Joe Public trying to navigate through various sources. I could be wrong too.
		
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Agree, I've felt recently that Spain (like a lot of countries) were being "economical" with the reporting. Think there were 3 days of no reports and the anticipated consolidation/catch up didn't seem to marry with the recent trend.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Where did you get that from?
		
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The news.
It is reported that new worrying ( worrying to their respective governments ) increases are occurring in Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Italy..
Hong Kong too..


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## Rlburnside (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I used SW as quick reference as its a popular holiday spot. There are many more places throughout the whole of the UK that are still far worse than many parts of Spain. But that's ok is it! Im sorry Homer but you're just showing yourself up by trying to blindly defend a point when you state you don't understand the blanket Ban, but then promote holidays at home which has higher infection rates than many of the destinations people could go to.

But taking your own point people can look at higher infected areas and plan accordingly, well by doing that planning I can see its safer for my family to holiday outside of the UK!

Like I said not as simple as you seem to think it is...
		
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After reading Hobbits previous post to yours do you honestly think it would be safer to take your family on holiday to Spain rather than holiday in the UK.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The number of tests is high. When a case is reported, everyone in the family, the neighbours, the shops they use and the bars they frequent are tested. Many are asymptomatic. Whether that's because their symptoms haven't developed or they are just carriers I don't know.

When there is a rise in cases I try and correlate it against hospital admissions to gauge how serious it is. Although they are going up they are lagging further behind than in March.
		
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Whilst the numbers of infections are increasing are the hospital numbers and deaths increasing as well? I appreciate we are asking questions you may not have answers to as though you are the all knowing oracle for Spain but it is interesting to see if the increase in infections, seems to be the young from your previous posts, is leading to the same kind of worry as before? If young people are catching it but are not actually being ill then those figures are not as worrying.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Where did you get that from?
		
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https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/29/boris-johnson-fears-second-wave-two-weeks-28-spike-july-13052216/
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/hea...ve-coronavirus-within-two-weeks-a4511061.html
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...econd-wave-two-weeks-UK-outbreaks-latest-news

plus a few other papers


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53578102

not sure if this will work as I believe the 14 day period of isolation was because Covid may take up to 14 days to show symtoms


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## rudebhoy (Jul 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			He didn't mention any specific region or province last night.

It is very much at odds with what Sanchez is saying but *Spain is on the quarantine list for quite a number of countries now*. Are they all wrong? I don't know.
		
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I heard Germany were advising against travel to 3 regions which are presumably the worst affected, and are testing arrivals. That seems like a more sensible approach. I really can't understand why the Canaries are off limits (not that I have any intention of travelling abroad anytime soon).


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2020)

Safer in the 


Rlburnside said:



			After reading Hobbits previous post to yours do you honestly think it would be safer to take your family on holiday to Spain rather than holiday in the UK.
		
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Safer in the Canary Islands than holidaying in many places in England still regardless of what's happening in mainland Spain. As I've said many times not as simple as putting out blanket bans. 

Some places in UK still far higher rates than other countries but we're allowed there without restrictions.


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## DanFST (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Safer in the

Safer in the Canary Islands than holidaying in many places in England still regardless of what's happening in mainland Spain. As I've said many times not as simple as putting out blanket bans.

Some places in UK still far higher rates than other countries but we're allowed there without restrictions.
		
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Why take the risk? Flying to the Canaries without quarantine isn't going to save airlines/tour operators. 


If i'm going to somewhere in the uk, I don't have to get on a plane. Way less points of contact, not too mention it would be unenforceable.


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## Ethan (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Safer in the

Safer in the Canary Islands than holidaying in many places in England still regardless of what's happening in mainland Spain. As I've said many times not as simple as putting out blanket bans.

Some places in UK still far higher rates than other countries but we're allowed there without restrictions.
		
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I agree. The risks are highly regionalised, and the Canaries are further from Catalonia and Aragon than London is. Case rates in the Canaries are more than 90% lower than in the current Spanish hotspots. 

I have no plans to go to Tenerife this year, although I have been 3 times in recent years (I recommend Abama Golf if you are there), but unless you have particular additional risk factors, the risk is modest.


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Why take the risk? Flying to the Canaries without quarantine isn't going to save airlines/tour operators.


If i'm going to somewhere in the uk, I don't have to get on a plane. Way less points of contact, not too mention it would be unenforceable.
		
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I'm not saying I am taking the risk, I've even pointed out i cancelled our holiday due to fly this week as a result. But all I've done throughout the thread here is highlight its not as black and white as people are assuming when they say ban all travel for a year. 

You may have less contact points if you travel in your own car around UK, but regionally you're at greater risk spending 7 days in many UK holiday areas than you are any of the Spanish Islands. 

Like I said im not advocating either way, I just believe that blanket bans don't take into account all the factors.


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I agree. The risks are highly regionalised, and the Canaries are further from Catalonia and Aragon than London is. Case rates in the Canaries are more than 90% lower than in the current Spanish hotspots.

I have no plans to go to Tenerife this year, although I have been 3 times in recent years (I recommend Abama Golf if you are there), but unless you have particular additional risk factors, the risk is modest.
		
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Thats kind of my point that people aren't taking into account. It's all well and good staying just ban it, but by that reckoning we should still have far more regional bans on UK internal travel, 2 examples used yesterday show factually the SW & NW and not to mention so many other UK regions are far higher risk to anyone than a short hope to Gran Canaria. But apparently that's ok as its UK based and less contact points 🤷🏻‍♂️

I'll give it a look somepoint ta for the suggestion..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53578102

not sure if this will work as I believe the 14 day period of isolation was because Covid may take up to 14 days to show symtoms
		
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Until recently I didn't realise that the 14 days was the top end of the timescales for symptoms to appear.  I thought it was to do with timescales associated with an individual in the same household getting it from you when you were in quarantine, and then them showing symptoms...or something like that.  In fact I think that was what was thought at first when 5 days was thought to be the timescales for showing symptoms - but our knowledge of the virus has now improved - 5 days now being understood to be the mean.


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## DanFST (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			I'm not saying I am taking the risk, I've even pointed out i cancelled our holiday due to fly this week as a result. But all I've done throughout the thread here is highlight its not as black and white as people are assuming when they say ban all travel for a year.

You may have less contact points if you travel in your own car around UK, but regionally you're at greater risk spending 7 days in many UK holiday areas than you are any of the Spanish Islands.

Like I said im not advocating either way, I just believe that blanket bans don't take into account all the factors.
		
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Didn't mean to insinuate that, apologies. Well aware you dropped your holiday 

I understand all these arguments, but in the grand scheme of things. I'm happy with blanket bans, doesn't effect me and won't save companies. I'd rather government resources put elsewhere as localised management would be intensive, and you'd still have people complaining!


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## Ethan (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Thats kind of my point that people aren't taking into account. It's all well and good staying just ban it, but by that reckoning we should still have far more regional bans on UK internal travel, 2 examples used yesterday show factually the SW & NW and not to mention so many other UK regions are far higher risk to anyone than a short hope to Gran Canaria. But apparently that's ok as its UK based and less contact points 🤷🏻‍♂️

I'll give it a look somepoint ta for the suggestion..
		
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There is a balance to be struck between detailed highly localised bans and broad sweeping generalisations. Saying that islands several hundred to a thousand miles off he mainland are exempt should not be too much of a stretch.


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## Ethan (Jul 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Until recently I didn't realise that the 14 days was the top end of the timescales for symptoms to appear.  I thought it was to do with timescales associated with an individual in the same household getting it from you when you were in quarantine, and then them showing symptoms...or something like that.  In fact I think that was what was thought at first when 5 days was thought to be the timescales for showing symptoms - but our knowledge of the virus has now improved - 5 days now being understood to be the mean.
		
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14 days is the upper end of the range. In the great majority of people, they will test positive within 7 days if infected. Symptoms may emerge a bit later in some of those who become symptomatic.


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## GB72 (Jul 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			14 days is the upper end of the range. In the great majority of people, they will test positive within 7 days if infected. Symptoms may emerge a bit later in some of those who become symptomatic.
		
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That helps with my understanding but could do with a little bit of clarification. Lets say I have been in contact with a person who has covid. Within what time period could it start showing as a positive result if I am tested. I am only looking at this in the context of the travel industry as the UK airlines are calling for people to be tested on return to the UK whereas my favourite holiday destination is currently allowing US tourists based on their production of a negative covid test no more than 7 days old. Is testing an option or could people infected still be producing a negative test result for a period after the initial contact.


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Didn't mean to insinuate that, apologies. Well aware you dropped your holiday 

I understand all these arguments, but in the grand scheme of things. *I'm happy with blanket bans, doesn't effect me* and won't save companies. I'd rather government resources put elsewhere as localised management would be intensive, and you'd still have people complaining!
		
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There is the crux of the matter when it comes to blanket bans. I think your posts come across as well thought out and as someone advocating of blanket bans at least you have the decency to talk sensibly and show understanding unlike others on here who make up petty scenarios because it doesn't affect them and can't see why others don't follow their blind opinion.

Just one of the issues I have with the blanket bans is using the Canaries as a continued example and Aragon in Mainland Spain which is an area currently suffering. Gran Canaria is 1490 Miles away from Aragon, whereas where I live in Lincolnshire is 1054 miles away. So im still closer to the infected area back here in UK than if I were in a self contained Villa in GC.

People say yeah but you have an ocean and lots of countries between you and Spain, so flip that around then I'm only 115 miles from a badly affected area in Lancashire which has over 10 times the current confirmed cases than the entire Canary Islands has yet I'd be perfectly allowed to holiday there, day trip there and much more likely to come into contact with people, and that's similar in many more UK locations. 

That for me is just one of many reasons this doesn't work, currently much less risk in the Canaries or Balearic Islands than there is right here in good old blighty. But there is far less restrictions here on where I can go and what I can do. We need better regionalisation in the UK as well as just looking at banning travel to some areas where the risk factor is actually far lower. 

Anyway, Im banging the same drum over and over so I'll bow out of this debate for now...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			14 days is the upper end of the range. In the great majority of people, they will test positive within 7 days if infected. Symptoms may emerge a bit later in some of those who become symptomatic.
		
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Indeed - as I now understand it...but when we first went into lockdown I recall the 14 days self-isolation we had to go into being based upon me showing possible symptoms - go into self-isolation.  In 5-7days if it was the virus it would have incubated and if it was I could have transmitted it to anyone in my household and then they had to isolate for 7 days along with me as I had to keep out of circulation...or something like that.  It was never 100% clear to me I must admit.

All that past - the 14 days quarantine of today is not _that _14 days.  14 days is the tail of the distribution.


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## Ethan (Jul 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			That helps with my understanding but could do with a little bit of clarification. Lets say I have been in contact with a person who has covid. Within what time period could it start showing as a positive result if I am tested. I am only looking at this in the context of the travel industry as the UK airlines are calling for people to be tested on return to the UK whereas my favourite holiday destination is currently allowing US tourists based on their production of a negative covid test no more than 7 days old. Is testing an option or could people infected still be producing a negative test result for a period after the initial contact.
		
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If someone coughs a load of Covid in your face, it'll probably take at least a couple of days before your test shows positive, but can be a week or so. In that time, the little beasties are replicating within you and infecting cells throughout your body, but it isn't until you are shedding virus in decent quantities that you test positive. Symptoms occur after the test is positive, if they occur. 

Note also that a negative test can arise for various reasons, including poor testing technique. 

That means that the airport test is only useful for determining if you were exposed 2-7+ days ago, so you will probably have heard the suggestion that you get a test on arrival and one 5-7 days later. This makes sense. If you test negative on the second occasion, you should be released from quarantine. The holiday destination negative test thing is better than nothing but not very reliable. You may remember some debate about immunity certificates based on an antibody test showing prior exposure with antibody response. That was not favoured by Govt because it would set up a two tier system for restrictions, although they justified not doing it by saying that we did not know that antibodies confer immunity. I think we now have good evidence to suggest they do and I wonder if reviving that idea now has some value.


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## GB72 (Jul 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If someone coughs a load of Covid in your face, it'll probably take at least a couple of days before your test shows positive, but can be a week or so. In that time, the little beasties are replicating within you and infecting cells throughout your body, but it isn't until you are shedding virus in decent quantities that you test positive. Symptoms occur after the test is positive, if they occur.

Note also that a negative test can arise for various reasons, including poor testing technique.

That means that the airport test is only useful for determining if you were exposed 2-7+ days ago, so you will probably have heard the suggestion that you get a test on arrival and one 5-7 days later. This makes sense. If you test negative on the second occasion, you should be released from quarantine. The holiday destination negative test thing is better than nothing but not very reliable. You may remember some debate about immunity certificates based on an antibody test showing prior exposure with antibody response. That was not favoured by Govt because it would set up a two tier system for restrictions, although they justified not doing it by saying that we did not know that antibodies confer immunity. I think we now have good evidence to suggest they do and I wonder if reviving that idea now has some value.
		
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Thank you, that has helped in my understanding a great deal. Basically, testing on return is not a great idea as, it one person gets infected just before flying home, they could then infect the whole of the plane but it is possible that nobody would produce a positive test result. Same with testing before departure for other countries, all that shows is that I did not have covid (or enough infected cells to produce a positive test result) on that day but could be merrily partying on a resort whilst being totally asymptomatic but infecting everyone. 

My favourite destination and annual treat is a trip to antigua. They are currently letting in US guests, most of whom have flown in via a stopover in Miami so not great. They only have to produce a test result that is negative and dated within the last seven days. These tests are paid for, self administered and sent to a bulk commercial lab. Not ideal. 

Like the idea of antibody testing but my concern (may sound stupid) is that there will be a number of brain donors who see that they can do more once they have had covid and will actually aim to get infected to get a positive antibody test.


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## Ethan (Jul 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Thank you, that has helped in my understanding a great deal. Basically, testing on return is not a great idea as, it one person gets infected just before flying home, they could then infect the whole of the plane but it is possible that nobody would produce a positive test result. Same with testing before departure for other countries, all that shows is that I did not have covid (or enough infected cells to produce a positive test result) on that day but could be merrily partying on a resort whilst being totally asymptomatic but infecting everyone.

My favourite destination and annual treat is a trip to antigua. They are currently letting in US guests, most of whom have flown in via a stopover in Miami so not great. They only have to produce a test result that is negative and dated within the last seven days. These tests are paid for, self administered and sent to a bulk commercial lab. Not ideal.

Like the idea of antibody testing but my concern (may sound stupid) is that there will be a number of brain donors who see that they can do more once they have had covid and will actually aim to get infected to get a positive antibody test.
		
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The first para describes the problem with testing perfectly. Doing it as a baseline to identify the already toxic, but with a quarantine for a week followed by another test is much better and probably quite enough.

Antigua is taking a calculated risk, knowing their tourist economy will die if they don't do something. a test taken 7 days ago is next to useless, because the exposure tested is for the period no more recent than 9 days ago, and the time course of exposure over that period means they may well not be a risk anymore even if that test was positive then. 

I hope nobody would be stupid enough to get infected deliberately with what we now know about the complications and long lasting effects of infection even in young fit people. But we know that (some) people are stupid.


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## Rlburnside (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			There is the crux of the matter when it comes to blanket bans. I think your posts come across as well thought out and as someone advocating of blanket bans at least you have the decency to talk sensibly and show understanding unlike others on here who make up petty scenarios because it doesn't affect them and can't see why others don't follow their blind opinion.

Just one of the issues I have with the blanket bans is using the Canaries as a continued example and Aragon in Mainland Spain which is an area currently suffering. Gran Canaria is 1490 Miles away from Aragon, whereas where I live in Lincolnshire is 1054 miles away. So im still closer to the infected area back here in UK than if I were in a self contained Villa in GC.

People say yeah but you have an ocean and lots of countries between you and Spain, so flip that around then I'm only 115 miles from a badly affected area in Lancashire which has over 10 times the current confirmed cases than the entire Canary Islands has yet I'd be perfectly allowed to holiday there, day trip there and much more likely to come into contact with people, and that's similar in many more UK locations. 

That for me is just one of many reasons this doesn't work, currently much less risk in the Canaries or Balearic Islands than there is right here in good old blighty. But there is far less restrictions here on where I can go and what I can do. We need better regionalisation in the UK as well as just looking at banning travel to some areas where the risk factor is actually far lower. 

Anyway, Im banging the same drum over and over so I'll bow out of this debate for now...
		
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Any sensible person would not go to a hot spot in the UK for a holiday so that point is rather irrelevant, if you went to the canaries or anywhere else in Spain you would still have to sit on a plane for 2/4 hours breathing re circulated air, not something I would like. 

I’m not contemplating a holiday this year but if I was I would choose a quiet spot in the uk just to be on the safe side. 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2020)

We have a holiday in Valencia booked for mid-October.  The Spanish PM tells us that Valencia is A-OK.  But will look to find the Valencian equivalent to Junta de Almeria...

My other more basic question (for @Hobbit?) is whether or not the Spanish virus management rules permit multiple couples to be staying together in the one - same - apartment at the same time.  We are one of four couples booked into a Valencia City Centre apartment for a three night stay.


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Any sensible person would not go to a hot spot in the UK for a holiday so that point is rather irrelevant, if you went to the canaries or anywhere else in Spain you would still have to sit on a plane for 2/4 hours breathing re circulated air, not something I would like.

I’m not contemplating a holiday this year but if I was I would choose a quiet spot in the uk just to be on the safe side. 👍
		
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Any sensible person wouldn't you're right but how many sensible people are there currently...

Plus in general terms we're still far more likely to come into contact with someone from an infected area just being here in UK. I work at an MOD site that has people from all over UK who go home every weekend back to those hotpots and potentially bring it back weekly and working in recirculated environments. Its not just about holidays in this country, and that's my point. Even just in day to day life more risk here than someone taking a week away in the Canaries.

We need far better home based controls before we state somewhere else is more of a risk when its actually not.

Like I said before though I'm out 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have a holiday in Valencia booked for mid-October.  The Spanish PM tells us that Valencia is A-OK.  But will look to find the Valencian equivalent to Junta de Almeria...

My other more basic question (for @Hobbit?) is whether or not the Spanish virus management rules permit multiple couples to be staying together in the one - same - apartment at the same time.  *We are one of four couples booked into a Valencia City Centre apartment for a three night stay.*

Click to expand...

I'm amazed you are doing this. Would you do it in the UK right now? 4 households in one enclosed space, how can that add up?


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## GB72 (Jul 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The first para describes the problem with testing perfectly. Doing it as a baseline to identify the already toxic, but with a quarantine for a week followed by another test is much better and probably quite enough.

Antigua is taking a calculated risk, knowing their tourist economy will die if they don't do something. a test taken 7 days ago is next to useless, because the exposure tested is for the period no more recent than 9 days ago, and the time course of exposure over that period means they may well not be a risk anymore even if that test was positive then.

I hope nobody would be stupid enough to get infected deliberately with what we now know about the complications and long lasting effects of infection even in young fit people. But we know that (some) people are stupid.
		
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I can understand the position taken by antigua as they are so reliant on tourists. What makes my jaw drop though is that the visitors from the US are are taking a test at home (not the most reliable method) but then, after having a negative result, they are then having a layover in a state that is a covid hot spot. You could not make it up. 

I would love to agree with you that people would not get it deliberately to gain more freedom but there are enough knuckle draggers round my way to not be so convinced. 

Anyway, thanks again for the information, gives me a clearer perspective on some of the opinions that I am seeing and so, hopefully, allows me to debate those opinions from am more informed and open sstandpoint.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Any sensible person would not go to a hot spot in the UK for a holiday so that point is rather irrelevant, if you went to the canaries or anywhere else in Spain you would still have to sit on a plane for 2/4 hours breathing re circulated air, not something I would like.

I’m not contemplating a holiday this year but if I was I would choose a quiet spot in the uk just to be on the safe side. 👍
		
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So you’ll do a risk assessment and make the best decision for you and yours, nobody has the right to say you’re wrong or stupid or whatever, without knowing your circumstances.
Unfortunately some on here tarred everyone going abroad with the same brush.


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## IainP (Jul 29, 2020)

Wolf said:



			So a quick Google will give you the current figures that prove your argument doesn't hold up.
Currently as of today there are 745 confirmed cases of Covid-19 in South West, England. A place that going by your previous post would be a suitable place for a stay at home holiday as its UK based. Somewhere we could all rock up to tomorrow if we so wished.

Lanzarote current number of Covid19 cases = 6.... To add further context the entire number of cases combined across the whole of the Canary Islands is 74!

So an entire group of Islands that travel is banned to because they're "Spanish" is banned because of increased risk of Covid-19, yet 1 region in England has over 10 times that amount alone, but we can all go there at will!

I'd suggest its not as cut and dried as you think and others think, there are other things to consider before we all go calling for blanket bans, ruining economy, jobs, mental health and other things. We need to look at what's going on at home as much if not more than abroad...
		
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I know you are out, but are you out - out? 

I'm in general agreement with the general direction of your posts/view, but the nerd in me does just need to flag up the 'comparing apples with oranges' risk (that we see in the media all the time)

i.e.
South West England - 5.6 million population    
Lanzarote -  152 thousand population

Appreciate other comparisons have been used as this evolved (including the Canary Islands one above - which stacks up better.)


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## Wolf (Jul 29, 2020)

IainP said:



			I know you are out, but are you out - out? 

I'm in general agreement with the general direction of your posts/view, but the nerd in me does just need to flag up the 'comparing apples with oranges' risk (that we see in the media all the time)

i.e.
South West England - 5.6 million population   
Lanzarote -  152 thousand population

Appreciate other comparisons have been used as this evolved (including the Canary Islands one above - which stacks up better.)
		
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Good point on numbers, but even less people to potentially contract it from then 😉


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## Rooter (Jul 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm amazed you are doing this. Would you do it in the UK right now? 4 households in one enclosed space, how can that add up?
		
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Covid is different on holiday though isn't it? Like the sun is a bit hotter, the beer is a bit stronger. They have the same stuff in the shops at home, but its just a little different! Les Cadburys Fingres for example..


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## Robster59 (Jul 29, 2020)

We have work that needs to be completed in Ireland and has been since just after lockdown.  However, we still cannot go over there to complete the work as the United Kingdom is not in Irelands Green Light list so we would have to quarantine for 14 days in Ireland before we could do any work.  
In theory I could take the ferry to Belfast and drive down but my company is not allowing this and the other contractors would be flying straight into Dublin anyway.  
So until Ireland adds us to the Green Light list, we're stuck.  

On holidays abroad, given that the latest viewpoint is that young people are driving the spikes in Coronavirus, and lots of young people who think they're invulnerable are travelling abroad for their holidays AND not following social distancing rules, I wouldn't want to share a plane with them.


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## bobmac (Jul 29, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			On holidays abroad, given that the latest viewpoint is that young people are driving the spikes in Coronavirus, and lots of young people who think they're invulnerable are travelling abroad for their holidays AND not following social distancing rules, I wouldn't want to share a plane with them.
		
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I agree but only 100%,() I'm going nowhere this year. I'll save my money and go somewhere special next year.


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## GB72 (Jul 29, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			On holidays abroad, given that the latest viewpoint is that young people are driving the spikes in Coronavirus, and lots of young people who think they're invulnerable are travelling abroad for their holidays AND not following social distancing rules, I wouldn't want to share a plane with them.
		
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Maybe the next step is to reverse the situation, lockdown everyone under 25 and let the more vulnerable age groups and people shielding out.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2020)

As she works in the cancer charity sector, and has used their services herself, my wife is very concerned and upset at what she is hearing from across the cancer charities.

Lots of significant cutbacks and closures of some cancer support centres happening as charity income has plummeted.   The problem for us all is that we depend hugely upon the support services the cancer charities provide that the NHS is just not able to provide.  Unfortunately as the charities are clearly not getting any guarantee of ongoing government funding to compensate for their loss of charitable giving income and bridge the gap until it returns - they are simply having to make the significant cuts to what they provide that we are seeing.  And some highly skilled and experienced people who work in the sector are being made redundant and having to look elsewhere - their skills could well be completely lost to the charities.  And each and every one of us might well feel the impact of that - as will the NHS Cancer teams as they are forced to pick up some of what the charities have been providing.

I am sure that this same issue is impacting across the charitable sector - as invisible as it is to most of us at the moment.  And other than increased government funding I don't know what can be done...and there are so many calls on the public purse at the moment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm amazed you are doing this. Would you do it in the UK right now? 4 households in one enclosed space, how can that add up?
		
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It doesn't.  Why I am asking.  We go away with the same 3 or 4 couples every couple of years (the girls of each couple being a very close group of nursing friends from their training days nearly 40yrs ago).  This has been booked since September of last year.  If our flights to Valencia are cancelled or if Spanish authorities say No then we have a chance of refund.  Just trying to get answers to some basic unknowns so we are better placed to know what to do when we come to cancel - or wait until it is cancelled for us.  We don't want to go - it doesn't make sense in any way to me.  And the truth is that in all probability we won't go.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have a holiday in Valencia booked for mid-October.  The Spanish PM tells us that Valencia is A-OK.  But will look to find the Valencian equivalent to Junta de Almeria...

My other more basic question (for @Hobbit?) is whether or not the Spanish virus management rules permit multiple couples to be staying together in the one - same - apartment at the same time.  We are one of four couples booked into a Valencia City Centre apartment for a three night stay.
		
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The protocols are managed at a regional level, e.g. Madrid has only just made masks mandatory in public. Andalucia has had the rule for 9 days.

Quite what the rules are for Valencia, I don’t know. As for what they’ll be in 3 months time, that’s a lick your finger and stick it in the air.

However, pretty much all the regions have the same rules for how many can sit around a table in a bar, 15, but they must all be friends or relatives.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It doesn't.  Why I am asking.  We go away with the same 3 or 4 couples every couple of years (the girls of each couple being a very close group of nursing friends from their training days nearly 40yrs ago).  This has been booked since September of last year.  If our flights to Valencia are cancelled or if Spanish authorities say No then we have a chance of refund.  Just trying to get answers to some basic unknowns so we are better placed to know what to do when we come to cancel - or wait until it is cancelled for us.  We don't want to go - it doesn't make sense in any way to me.  And the truth is that in all probability we won't go.
		
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In terms of a refund you may have to sit it out and wait until nearer the time for a cancellation to happen. I am guessing this is not a package, you have put this together yourselves. The airline may allow you to transfer the flights or take a voucher. They are being pretty good with that so I would not expect that to be an issue. In terms of the accomodation you would need to read the cancellation policy but utlimately you may have to take a hit on that. Incidentally, did you take out insurance before the pandemic broke? As you booked prior to this kicking off you may be covered for it. Worth looking into.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In terms of a refund you may have to sit it out and wait until nearer the time for a cancellation to happen. I am guessing this is not a package, you have put this together yourselves. The airline may allow you to transfer the flights or take a voucher. They are being pretty good with that so I would not expect that to be an issue. In terms of the accomodation you would need to read the cancellation policy but utlimately you may have to take a hit on that. Incidentally, did you take out insurance before the pandemic broke? As you booked prior to this kicking off you may be covered for it. Worth looking into.
		
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We have permanent travel insurance through our bank...and I have checked and such as lockdowns either at the holiday location or at the my home that prevent me travelling look to be covered.  The only circumstance that we would go would be if...well actually I can't think of any circumstance...because 'community virus virtually eliminated' isn't going to happen.  I guess the reason the girls haven't yet had that conversation is that we live in hope...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We have permanent travel insurance through our bank...and I have checked and such as lockdowns either at the holiday location or at the my home that prevent me travelling look to be covered.  The only circumstance that we would go would be if...well actually I can't think of any circumstance...because 'community virus virtually eliminated' isn't going to happen.  I guess the reason the girls haven't yet had that conversation is that we live in hope...
		
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It's the hope that kills you.......I totally understand. We should have been going to Holland this saturday for a week. We put off cancelling even though we knew it was the right thing to do. In the end we forced the issue accomodation wise and we got lucky in that our flight was cancelled by the airline. I'm pleased we did it. We could ulitmately have found another flight, we could have got there, but I would not have been relaxed and that is the whole point of the holiday. At some point you may need to be the bad guy and point out the inevitable.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

Copied from the BBC News website.


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## Rlburnside (Jul 29, 2020)

We recently flew to Denmark but on a chartered flight, when we went to board the Danish pilots said we needn’t where masks, I was amazed at the difference in Denmark, shops , pubs, restaurants all open no social distancing and packed out with tourists. 

It felt strange experiencing normality after months of lockdown.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			We recently flew to Denmark but on a chartered flight, when we went to board the Danish pilots said we needn’t where masks, I was amazed at the difference in Denmark, shops , pubs, restaurants all open no social distancing and packed out with tourists. 

It felt strange experiencing normality after months of lockdown.
		
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That sounds like scifi film where the underclass get to see the promised land where the wealthy live. I'm feeling very envious of Denmark right now.


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## IainP (Jul 29, 2020)

Would be interested in how Italy are managing things. As a country hit very hard early, so far they seem to be avoiding the increases being seen elsewhere


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## drdel (Jul 29, 2020)

News report by BBC calling for the extension of the summer COVIDO free school meals scheme.

Pity the mother claiming she could not afford a midday meal for her 10 year old son was about  114 kg  (18st) and wearing an Apple watch!! Priorities j


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2020)

Spanish PM, Sánchez, has asked parliament to preauthorise lockdown just in case it hits the trigger point Sometime in August. It will save about 4 days of wrangling.


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## Italian outcast (Jul 30, 2020)

IainP said:



			Would be interested in how Italy are managing things. As a country hit very hard early, so far they seem to be avoiding the increases being seen elsewhere
		
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Can't comment on the rest of the country - but in Lombardy (and Bergamo where i am) where things were worst - everything is slowly opening up but in general, cautiously

I think in general there is greater awareness and compliance with general simple measures
Wear a mask when mask indoors (outside your house restaurants/bars/cafes and shops) and on transport
General social distance outside - without masks
No more than that - I think its expected that compliance would be greater - nearly everyone in Bergamo has lost a family member or someone well-known to them
At a national level - thee political infighting about how the crisis was mismanaged is well underway - just like everywhere else


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 30, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			We recently flew to Denmark but on a chartered flight, when we went to board the Danish pilots said we needn’t where masks, I was amazed at the difference in Denmark, shops , pubs, restaurants all open no social distancing and packed out with tourists.

It felt strange experiencing normality after months of lockdown.
		
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I'm due to go there in October on business and I really don't know how to feel about it.  I suppose if the numbers are still low then I'll be as safe as I could be. But from the evidence in some countries of the virus numbers rising, a lot clustered around places where people are gathering such as restaurants and pubs/bars, I'm not sure if I am ready for that yet.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 30, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			Can't comment on the rest of the country - but in Lombardy (and Bergamo where i am) where things were worst - everything is slowly opening up but in general, cautiously

I think in general there is greater awareness and compliance with general simple measures
Wear a mask when mask indoors (outside your house restaurants/bars/cafes and shops) and on transport
General social distance outside - without masks
No more than that - I think its expected that compliance would be greater - nearly everyone in Bergamo has lost a family member or someone well-known to them
At a national level - thee political infighting about how the crisis was mismanaged is well underway - just like everywhere else
		
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Do you think it has scarred Italians and so they are prepared to follow the guidelines quite strictly still? In other countries people have looked for a release from lockdown and a lowering of the guard has happened.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I
I hope nobody would be stupid enough to get infected deliberately with what we now know about the complications and long lasting effects of infection even in young fit people. But we know that (some) people are stupid.
		
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Isn’t the problem that at the start the often repeated manta was that young people were safe from it?
I still hear many young people claiming that.


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## bobmac (Jul 30, 2020)

This lady certainly doesn't want to wear a mask


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288149964972003329


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Isn’t the problem that at the start the often repeated manta was that young people were safe from it?
I still hear many young people claiming that.
		
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Young people certainly have a better set of outcomes, but the original idea that it was essentially innocuous to younger people is now debunked. There have been deaths and people who have suffered complications of disease like chronic lung damage or encephalitis. They also appear to be more likely to be asymptomatic carriers rather than cases. Evidence about whether they are less likely to shed virus is unclear, probably the case for smaller children, not so clear for teenagers and above.


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## BrianM (Jul 30, 2020)

Having cancelled our two trips abroad this year due to the situation we decided to go on a short break to St Andrews, what a mistake that was, the place was absolutely heaving, hardly any social distancing and restaurants / coffee shops rammed.
Normally loads to do with kids, but hardly anything on, including at hotel, which was a bit misleading when we booked.
Mostly our own fault and £1500 for the pleasure.
Think twice if going away until more restrictions are lifted would be my advice.


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## Rlburnside (Jul 30, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm due to go there in October on business and I really don't know how to feel about it.  I suppose if the numbers are still low then I'll be as safe as I could be. But from the evidence in some countries of the virus numbers rising, a lot clustered around places where people are gathering such as restaurants and pubs/bars, I'm not sure if I am ready for that yet.
		
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I was also on business and wouldn’t have gone otherwise, we were in the north of Denmark where they have had very few cases there. I’ve been to Denmark at least a dozen times and this trip was the busiest I’ve seen it, I never went in a pub or restaurant mainly because there were so many tourists. 

It was a bit surreal being there. 
Love the Danes though very laid back, 

Have a safe trip 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			This lady certainly doesn't want to wear a mask


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1288149964972003329

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Aye - there are some rather weird religious types with rather weird and misguided views - just as there are weird atheists and agnostics with their own weird and misguided views on the matter of wearing a mask.  But they amount to the same thing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 30, 2020)

Now two weeks of no Covid deaths in Scotland.


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## bobmac (Jul 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye - there are some rather weird religious types with rather weird and misguided views - just as there are weird atheists and agnostics with their own weird and misguided views on the matter of wearing a mask.  But they amount to the same thing.
		
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I agree but when either side starts to affect the safety and health of others, I draw the line.


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## DRW (Jul 30, 2020)




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## Italian outcast (Jul 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you think it has scarred Italians and so they are prepared to follow the guidelines quite strictly still? In other countries people have looked for a release from lockdown and a lowering of the guard has happened.
		
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My general feeling is that compliance is greater if people have been genuinely, personally affected - even if its a family member or friend being positive/ill or a more distant/elderly relative dying
In Bergamo thats just about everyone - ourselves included
Obvious at the start it looked as if it may be a genuine catastrophe here - so folk complied with all conditions - the lass never left the house for 10 weeks
Then, moving forward as things opened up compliance remained high - in part as Italy is a fairly regulated, society with strict police powers etc
Also Bergamo is a conservative region, and in general folk are law abiding, so that helps
Finally Tourism is very important so showing that it is relatively safe here is essential to everyone
So yes - Bergamascan's at least were scarred to some extent - in saying that most folk i see are smiling, life moves on
Its nothing compared to the chaos and sadness of the 40s  with the truly horrendous behaviour of the Germans and Italian fascist squads on the civilian population - they still remember that


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I agree but when either side starts to affect the safety and health of others, I draw the line.
		
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Either side indeed - to wear or not to wear.  So you could equally have posted a video of an individual in a shop ranting against wearing a mask on the grounds of freedom of choice...


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## Crow (Jul 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Either side indeed - to wear or not to wear.  So you could equally have posted a video of an individual in a shop ranting against wearing a mask on the grounds of freedom of choice...
		
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Except they wouldn't be calling you a demon or threatening to cast you into the lake of fire.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 30, 2020)

Crow said:



			Except they wouldn't be calling you a demon or threatening to cast you into the lake of fire. 

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Just threaten to punch your lights out and spit on you .

To be fair on this, stupid is what it is. Religious stupidity or plain stupidity, it is still stupid.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jul 30, 2020)

Hoping we might see this go over at some point in the afternoon https://www.facebook.com/aircraftre...200721303265/1627716614051666/?type=3&theater


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## Ethan (Jul 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aye - there are some rather weird religious types with rather weird and misguided views - just as there are weird atheists and agnostics with their own weird and misguided views on the matter of wearing a mask.  But they amount to the same thing.
		
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Do tell me the views of atheists (i.e. rationalists) on mask wearing which are as misguided as those of this nutcase.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Do tell me the views of atheists (i.e. rationalists) on mask wearing which are as misguided as those of this nutcase.
		
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Is it misguided to argue against wearing a mask as it being an attack against my personal freedoms...I think it is.  I would not suggest that as being as misguided as the views held by some of extreme and IMO very misguided and dangerous religious thinking. But in the end they amount to the same thing.  Not wearing a mask in a store.  Doesn't really matter how you get there.


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## bobmac (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Either side indeed - to wear or not to wear.  So you could equally have posted a video of an individual in a shop ranting against wearing a mask on the grounds of freedom of choice...
		
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Maybe I could have (if I could find one) but that wouldn't support my anti religious point of view.
People say ''let them have their religion'' but when it tells them how to raise their children, who to vote for and threatens the lives of fellow shoppers, I can't agree.

Fortunately, it's the one aspect of American culture that that the UK hasn't copied....yet.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 31, 2020)

Had my first redundancy 1to1 today. Weirdly as I drove to the office I was anything but angry - got a bit choked which was unexpected. Still feel a teeny bit emosh  so off for a sunny bike ride to clear my head.

Think I'm fed up of being angry and frustrated at the whole scenario and how poorly its been handled (having said that the HR woman was brilliant today) so just going to try and chill, see out the year and move on.


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## GB72 (Jul 31, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Had my first redundancy 1to1 today. Weirdly as I drove to the office I was anything but angry - got a bit choked which was unexpected. Still feel a teeny bit emosh  so off for a sunny bike ride to clear my head.

Think I'm fed up of being angry and frustrated at the whole scenario and how poorly its been handled (having said that the HR woman was brilliant today) so just going to try and chill, see out the year and move on.
		
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I felt like that the one time I was made redundant. Knew I was going because there were people who, despite not being as able at the job as me, were considerably cheaper. Once I had made peace with that, I relaxed through the interviews with the only point that i pushed for being immediate release and payment of my notice and redundancy in one rather than having to work out my notice period. Once that was agreed, we agreed a last date to hand over any current work, I went in that day with a few bottles of fizz, had a drink with everyone I had worked with, walked out the office and never saw any of them again (I don't do work friends, too complicated and makes work harder to get away from).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 31, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Maybe I could have (if I could find one) but that wouldn't support my anti religious point of view.
People say ''let them have their religion'' but when it tells them how to raise their children, who to vote for and threatens the lives of fellow shoppers, I can't agree.

Fortunately, it's the one aspect of American culture that that the UK hasn't copied....yet.
		
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yes indeed.  Always worth remembering that in the UK we 'religious types' are not all the same...there are many differences.  But whatever the differences I suggest that most 'religious types' in the UK are aghast and abhor what are masqueraded as Christian views by the Christian (largely evangelical) right in the States.  You don't have to be anti-religious to find the views expressed in the video seriously misguided and dangerous.


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## GB72 (Jul 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yes indeed.  Always worth remembering that in the UK we 'religious types' are not all the same...there are many differences.  But whatever the differences I suggest that most 'religious types' in the UK are aghast and abhor what are masqueraded as Christian views by the Christian (largely evangelical) right in the States.  You don't have to be anti-religious to find the views expressed in the video seriously misguided and dangerous.
		
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Serious question as my experience of the Christian Church is limited to village church sermons. Does the UK have any element of those extreme views shown in the US.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Serious question as my experience of the Christian Church is limited to village church sermons. Does the UK have any element of those extreme views shown in the US.
		
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My experience of evangelic churches (where more extreme views are more likely to be found in some congregations) in the UK is limited but I have heard views expressed from a standpoint not too far from that of the woman in the video.  Mind you a bit of calvanist fire and brimstone preaching can sound a bit OTT these days -and it’s not that long ago that one Sunday I was berated by an old fellow on a Stornaway beach for me and my mate doing a bit of cleaning of my mates dinghy.


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## bobmac (Aug 1, 2020)

I guess it depends on how much of the bible you think is true.


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## Marshy77 (Aug 1, 2020)

Back in lockdown!!


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## Slab (Aug 1, 2020)

Lockdown seems so far away
95 days clear in general population 
Didn't even use a mask at the course today
Hindsight says 'hard and fast' was the way to go


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## IainP (Aug 1, 2020)

Slab said:



			Lockdown seems so far away
95 days clear in general population
Didn't even use a mask at the course today
Hindsight says 'hard and fast' was the way to go
		
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I was reflecting only this morning, how hard and possibly unfair you and others on the island were finding it a bit back, and right now - it all seems like the right decisions were made. Hindsight eh.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 1, 2020)

Lady Doon was contemplating a grand daughters birthday cake with candles during covid.
Came up with a clever solution. 

Wee block of wood with two small holes for candles. Wrap in tin foil and place on the cake.
Do the 'Happy Birthday' bit take off the block of wood for her to blow the candles out.
+ it's re-useable.


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## Crazyface (Aug 3, 2020)

How is ths CV starting to spread again? If people follow the gov instructions this should not be happening. God forbid if they lock my area down. 

Why is it only certain areas that are now in lock down? Just what have they been doing / not been doing?


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 3, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			How is ths CV starting to spread again? *If people follow the gov instructions this should not be happening.* God forbid if they lock my area down.

*Why is it only certain areas that are now in lock down?* Just what have they been doing / not been doing?
		
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The government use a random number generator each week to decide which areas go down into lockdown.  So they look at the numbers in your postcode and if they match you go into lockdown.  As for why it is starting to spread again then it is either down to the fact that more people are mixing due to the recent relaxations, mostly driven by the need to get the economy up and running again, and mixing is how the virus spreads. Or 5G.  Take your pick.  And just a heads up to avoid any future disappointment, the government's measures do not mean the virus will not spread. If they wanted no spreading to happen we would all be in very severe lockdown.

And yes god forbid they lock down your area, if they do I suggest you join the increasing band of brave patriots and freedom fighters by not wearing a mask in Lidl and posting it on social media. True selfless heroes.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 3, 2020)

IainP said:



			I was reflecting only this morning, how hard and possibly unfair you and others on the island were finding it a bit back, and right now - it all seems like the right decisions were made. *Hindsight eh.*

Click to expand...

One governments hindsight is anothers foresight. Depending on what the outcome is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			The government use a random number generator to decide which areas go down into lockdown.  So they look at the numbers in your postcode and if they match you go into lockdown.  As for why it is starting to spread again then it is either down to the fact that more people are mixing due to the recent relaxations, mostly driven by the need to get the economy up and running again, and mixing is how the virus spreads. Or 5G.  Take your pick.  And just a heads up to avoid any future disappointment, the government's measures do not mean the virus will not spread.* If they wanted no spreading to happen we would all be in very severe lockdown.*

And yes god forbid they lock down your area, if they do I suggest you join the increasing band of brave patriots and freedom fighters by not wearing a mask in Lidl and posting it on social media. True heroes.
		
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As the Victoria state government has applied to Melbourne.  A city of 5m with a curfew from 8pm to 5am, and very strict constraints on what you can do and where you can go the rest of the time.  And I believe that Melbourne's numbers of infections and deaths are pretty consistent with what we are seeing across the UK at the moment as a whole.

And it is going to be in place for at least 4 weeks.  They want to stamp on it hard.


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## DRW (Aug 3, 2020)

Are virus cases really rising, lots of conflicting data currently (first time this has been applicable, before almost all data has being pointing the same direction before).

A small take on it :-

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/

Also bear in mind, Daily Hospitalisations continue to drop in the main, triage and 111 data also tending to indicating things not getting worse, false positives come out more with more testing, more testing done(so naturally more proper positives being picked up) and more testing being done in hotspots, so more positives being picked up than previously testing done..

ONS survey data says its increasing, but numbers and confidence levels aren't great with that.


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## Hacker Khan (Aug 3, 2020)

DRW said:



			Are virus cases really rising, lots of conflicting data currently (first time this has been applicable, before almost all data has being pointing the same direction before).

A small take on it :-

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-cases-in-england-arent-rising-heres-why/

Also bear in mind, Daily Hospitalisations continue to drop in the main, triage and 111 data also tending to indicating things not getting worse, false positives come out more with more testing,* more testing done(so naturally more proper positives being picked up) and more testing being done in hotspots, so more positives being picked up than previously testing done..*

ONS survey data says its increasing, but numbers and confidence levels aren't great with that.
		
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Isn't that what Trump says?


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## DRW (Aug 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Isn't that what Trump says?
		
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Damn been found out, I can confirm I am Donald Trump


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As the Victoria state government has applied to Melbourne.  A city of 5m with a curfew from 8pm to 5am, and very strict constraints on what you can do and where you can go the rest of the time.  And I believe that Melbourne's numbers of infections and deaths are pretty consistent with what we are seeing across the UK at the moment as a whole.

And it is going to be in place for at least 4 weeks.  They want to stamp on it hard.
		
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As far as I can see the figures are nowhere near comparable.

Similar numbers of new cases but population of Melbourne is approx 5 million whereas UK population somewhere around 66 million. 

For the two situations to be similar there would need to be around 10,000 new cases per day in UK.


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## pendodave (Aug 3, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Isn't that what Trump says?
		
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Lol.
One of the most troubling ways in which c19 has affected me is that I find myself agreeing with (some) comments on the telegraph website and rolling my eyes at the guardianistas.... strange times indeed. If only I could just blindly follow my long held political convictions.
#edit - no slight intended to you HK, just reflecting on the general vibe in here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			As far as I can see the figures are nowhere near comparable.

Similar numbers of new cases but population of Melbourne is approx 5 million whereas UK population somewhere around 66 million.

For the two situations to be similar there would need to be around 10,000 new cases per day in UK.
		
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I was making not actually making a pro rata comparison - simply noting that the numbers might seem relatively low in Melbourne but nonetheless the Victoria state government have decided to take a pretty absolutist approach to trying to stamp it out rather than accept a level of infection.

Not saying right or wrong - but I am not sure that our government would, or even_ could_, take such an approach were our numbers to become relatively similar. A curfew?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was making not actually making a pro rata comparison - simply noting that the numbers might seem relatively low in Melbourne but nonetheless the Victoria state government have decided to take a pretty absolutist approach to trying to stamp it out rather than accept a level of infection.

Not saying right or wrong - but I am not sure that our government would, or even_ could_, take such an approach were our numbers to become relatively similar. A curfew?
		
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Strange though it may seem in view of the perception of Australia and its people but theirs is per the epitome of a "Nanny State".

Therefore, curfew etc; may seem more acceptable.

In any event the infection rate per capita in Melbourne cannot be described as relatively low. 

As for the reaction in this country in the event of comparable figures we can only speculate on what action our Government might take and the public's reaction.


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Lol.
One of the most troubling ways in which c19 has affected me is that I find myself agreeing with (some) comments on the telegraph website and rolling my eyes at the guardianistas.... strange times indeed. If only I could just blindly follow my long held political convictions.
#edit - no slight intended to you HK, just reflecting on the general vibe in here.
		
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Have to agree. This pandemic is very much apolitical and I have found myself supporting views on both sides of the bench as well as supporting the views of the devolved governments on some issues and not on others. I can appreciate a well argued point from any party or political background, the only thing I do not appreciate, and this is across the board, is if someone tags some political point scoring on the end of their point, currently very unnecessary.

Same goes on here. I can find myself changing my opinion based on people putting across well thought out, well argued debate. I tend to ignore the one eyed views from those who have a clear, immovable, stance (no point if debating a point with someone who will not look at the view of the other side) but I have found myself agreeing with people who I do not always agree with.


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## Slab (Aug 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was making not actually making a pro rata comparison - simply noting that the numbers might seem relatively low in Melbourne but nonetheless the Victoria state government have decided to take a pretty absolutist approach to trying to stamp it out rather than accept a level of infection.

Not saying right or wrong - *but I am not sure that our government would, or even could, take such an approach *were our numbers to become relatively similar. *A curfew?*

Click to expand...

I think they missed the chance to do this back in March
I've mentioned before, our curfew for covid went way beyond even what Melbourne is now doing... _No one was permitted outdoors any hour of the day_
(if your job was essential like hospital, police etc you had to get a travel permit to go to/from work, other than these essential workers everyone else stays indoors, no work, no shopping, no exercise/dog walking etc)

It meant any household with a symptomatic case was easily identifiable & it was contained


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			I think they missed the chance to do this back in March
I've mentioned before, our curfew for covid went way beyond even what Melbourne is now doing... _No one was permitted outdoors any hour of the day_
(if your job was essential like hospital, police etc you had to get a travel permit to go to/from work, other than these essential workers everyone else stays indoors, no work, no shopping, no exercise/dog walking etc)

It meant any household with a symptomatic case was easily identifiable & it was contained
		
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Not sure that we could have even done it back in March. Thinking of the logistics of it, you would, in all likelihood, have had to have the army patrolling the streets of major towns and cities and I am just not sure how that would have played out.


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## Slab (Aug 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure that we could have even done it back in March. Thinking of the logistics of it, you would, in all likelihood, have had to have the army patrolling the streets of major towns and cities and I am just not sure how that would have played out.
		
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We don't have an army but in effect this is exactly what happened. The police and civil defense forces patrolled the streets. Helicopters patrolled the coastlines/beaches and coast guard went looking for the fishermen further out to sea
It took 10 days just to establish a programme to reopen food shops and of course by then virtually the entire population had done the isolation time needed to ID cases


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not sure that we could have even done it back in March. Thinking of the logistics of it, you would, in all likelihood, have had to have the army patrolling the streets of major towns and cities and I am just not sure how that would have played out.
		
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But the lockdown was pretty well respected when it occurred, with lower numbers of kids still at school and more people moving to home working than expected, so all the behavioural psychology saying it couldn't be stained past 4 or 5 weeks was wrong. No Army curfews were needed. Pity the Govt hadn't implemented that sooner, instead of prevaricating and issuing "advice" not to go to still open pubs that even the PM's father said he intended to ignore. The UK saw Covid coming with greater time available than most of continental Europe. A fast and hard response would have made getting out of it so much easier. That means a prompt lockdown, lots of testing and closing the borders. They didn't do any of those.


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			We don't have an army but in effect this is exactly what happened. The police and civil defense forces patrolled the streets. Helicopters patrolled the coastlines/beaches and coast guard went looking for the fishermen further out to sea
It took 10 days just to establish a programme to reopen food shops and of course by then virtually the entire population had done the isolation time needed to ID cases
		
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From what I remember of the island, I am guessing that would be a slightly easier operation their than trying to do the same for the whole of the UK.


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But the lockdown was pretty well respected when it occurred, with lower numbers of kids still at school and more people moving to home working than expected, so all the behavioural psychology saying it couldn't be stained past 4 or 5 weeks was wrong. No Army curfews were needed. Pity the Govt hadn't implemented that sooner, instead of prevaricating and issuing "advice" not to go to still open pubs that even the PM's father said he intended to ignore. The UK saw Covid coming with greater time available than most of continental Europe. A fast and hard response would have made getting out of it so much easier. That means a prompt lockdown, lots of testing and closing the borders. They didn't do any of those.
		
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Agreed, my comment was in response to Slab and the response in Mauritius whereby you were not allowed out at all, total lockdown, travel permits needed, certain permitted shopping times/days etc.


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## Slab (Aug 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			From what I remember of the island, *I am guessing that would be a slightly easier operation their than trying to do the same for the whole of the UK*.
		
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I thought so too (being a wee place an all that) But I did wonder that as the UK is 100 times bigger (guess) it also has 100 times the resources etc, so in that respect shouldn't it be just the same


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			I thought so too (being a wee place an all that) But I did wonder that as the UK is 100 times bigger (guess) it also has 100 times the resources etc, so in that respect shouldn't it be just the same 

Click to expand...

Not sure, not so sure how these things scale up/down based on resources available.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 3, 2020)

What were these people thinking 😲

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-53636854?__twitter_impression=true


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## Crazyface (Aug 3, 2020)

The Government should have banned all foreign holidays that were booked this year. We should have kept everyone out (and in) until the end of this year minimum.


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## Crazyface (Aug 3, 2020)

Just glad Corbin wasn't in power, What a bluddy mess we'd be in now.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 3, 2020)

Can someone enlighten me please re a vaccine for this.
I understand how a vaccine works, but I hear last week on the BBC radio through medical specialists that apparently the antibodies formed by people that have had the virus weaken and become no good, so the person stands a good chance of possibly catching the thing again to the same level. Now if that is the case, how will a vaccine work because from my perspective I don't see how it can.


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Can someone enlighten me please re a vaccine for this.
I understand how a vaccine works, but I hear last week on the BBC radio through medical specialists that apparently the antibodies formed by people that have had the virus weaken and become no good, so the person stands a good chance of possibly catching the thing again to the same level. Now if that is the case, how will a vaccine work because from my perspective I don't see how it can.
		
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From an uneducated view, I would have thought either with to ups (like an annual flu shot) or simply that a mass vaccination leaves less places for covid to develop and spread and so the prevalence of it reduces to a negligible level.


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## Italian outcast (Aug 3, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Can someone enlighten me please re a vaccine for this.
I understand how a vaccine works, but I hear last week on the BBC radio through medical specialists that apparently the antibodies formed by people that have had the virus weaken and become no good, so the person stands a good chance of possibly catching the thing again to the same level. Now if that is the case, how will a vaccine work because from my perspective I don't see how it can.
		
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One scenario is that you get vaccinated (once or twice) then a few months later ?/after another 3-6 months get a booster dose 
This strategy usually leads to longer lasting responses. They are also now positioning as a need for subsequent vaccination annual or every 2 years 
They just don't have enough information yet about the different vaccines and their ability to generate strong, lasting immune responses  with antibodies.. and also T-cells
Obviously they also don't know how protective these may be in preventing infection
This is still all early days in vaccine development and getting the correct/true data for some things can't be rushed


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## Billysboots (Aug 3, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Can someone enlighten me please re a vaccine for this.
I understand how a vaccine works, but I hear last week on the BBC radio through medical specialists that apparently the antibodies formed by people that have had the virus weaken and become no good, so the person stands a good chance of possibly catching the thing again to the same level. Now if that is the case, how will a vaccine work because from my perspective I don't see how it can.
		
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My assumption would have to be that, even if a vaccine only provides limited protection for, say, six months, if you vaccinate a big enough proportion of society then the virus cannot spread and, as such, dies out.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			My assumption would have to be that, even if a vaccine only provides limited protection for, say, six months, if you vaccinate a big enough proportion of society then the virus cannot spread and, as such, dies out.
		
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Correct, but you need >80percent of the population to be vaccinated


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## Billysboots (Aug 3, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Correct, but you need >80percent of the population to be vaccinated
		
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Given the numbers who have probably had the virus already, which I think most agree are several times more than those who have actually tested positive, combined with those queuing up to be vaccinated, I don’t think we’ll struggle to get to 80%.

Even with the anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			My assumption would have to be that, even if a vaccine only provides limited protection for, say, six months, if you vaccinate a big enough proportion of society then the virus cannot spread and, as such, dies out.
		
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But it would have to be a World wide action all at the same time. As I said, I don't see how a vaccine will work with what information has been given out so far


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agreed, my comment was in response to Slab and the response in Mauritius whereby you were not allowed out at all, total lockdown, travel permits needed, certain permitted shopping times/days etc.
		
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Sure, and I was trying to add to the discussion rather than rebut. It is an important issue. The idea of behavioural fatigue was one which influenced Govt to delay lockdown, even though there was no evidence that it would occur here, or had occurred anywhere else in a way that undermined response to the virus. I suspect it was cover for Johnson not wanting to do something perceived by his libertarian wing as unpopular. And as it turns out, people have responded pretty well with lockdown overall. With clearer messaging I think we should have seen it even better.


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Can someone enlighten me please re a vaccine for this.
I understand how a vaccine works, but I hear last week on the BBC radio through medical specialists that apparently the antibodies formed by people that have had the virus weaken and become no good, so the person stands a good chance of possibly catching the thing again to the same level. Now if that is the case, how will a vaccine work because from my perspective I don't see how it can.
		
Click to expand...

There are several types of vaccine in development, ranging from the conventional inactivated part of the protein coat to more modern RNA sequences which work as a sort of gene therapy. This is good because multiple different mechanisms and technologies improve the chances that at least one of them will work. The Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine and the Moderna vaccine look very interesting.

The current thinking on immunity is that there are at least two major contributions to immunity, and they probably work together.

One is through antibodies. It appears that people who get exposed to the virus pretty much all develop antibodies, but the amount of antibody, and the length of time it lasts may be lower in asymptomatic patients, who presumably got a lower load of virus. Most people exposed will have some immunity through this route.

The other side, and possibly the real story, is T-cell immunity. Good evidence that some people do not develop antibodies but develop activated T-cells which will attack and kill the virus. Recent studies looking for activated T-cells have shown quite promising results with a much higher prevalence in the community than expected. See link below for a not very technical news story. 

T cells

Taken together, there may be a better reservoir of immunity in the population than thought. Both effects may exist together, so exposure through natural infection or vaccination may result in initial antibody response of variable degree and duration, but a longer lasting T-cell activation.


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Correct, but you need >80percent of the population to be vaccinated
		
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The herd immunity threshold varies according to Ro. Herd immunity is based on there being too few people at risk for the virus to propagate, and the more infectious it is, i.e. lower the Ro, the less people at risk it needs to propagate. The formula is herd immunity threshold = 1-1/Ro. For Covid, the Ro is around 3, so the herd immunity threshold is around 66%. That can be accrued from natural infection and vaccination combined. 

For measles, the Ro is much higher, around 15, so the herd immunity threshold is around 94%.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2020)

And so we are in August - and in normal times I would have been thinking seriously about giving notice of hanging up my boots (at least by full time ones) in about 3 weeks time.  But circumstances as they are, and not wanting to risk not getting any P/T work if that's what I want, I'm not going to do that.  And I don't think my company is that interested in helping me find the door.

As a result I guess that I'll become a bit of a job blocker, pretty much in the way that many (100s of thousands?) WASPI women are job-blocking as they can't afford to retire at 60 as they thought they'd be able to.  

However if the government were to sort out the WASPI issue and incentivise companies to help, say, over 55s to hang up their boots (or change legislation to make it easier to make an individual redundant rather than a role), then many job opportunities could be opened up for a younger generation in these difficult Covid-19 times.


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## Old Skier (Aug 3, 2020)

Wouldn’t surprise me if there’s mor PT work than full time going around soon.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 3, 2020)

Mrs. BiM is due to have an operation.  Hospital just phoned about it, oh, and your bloods are back; you might like to know that you've got Coronavirus antibodies...

Never been sick, never noticed that she had anything beyond a mild seasonal bug.  How far has this spread already?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Wouldn’t surprise me if there’s mor PT work than full time going around soon.
		
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probably too true


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## SaintHacker (Aug 3, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs. BiM is due to have an operation.  Hospital just phoned about it, oh, and your bloods are back; you might like to know that you've got Coronavirus antibodies...

Never been sick, never noticed that she had anything beyond a mild seasonal bug.  How far has this spread already?
		
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A lot further and longer than anyone expected. Daughter in law has been shielding since the start due to a compromised immune system. She had a chat with her specialist last week now she's been 'released' and was basically told go out and enjoy yourself, the risk to her mental health is far greater than the risk from c19 at the moment in our area.
The specialist also said they were seeing antibodies in bloods taken from people well into last year, so the theory is emerging that the hit in March was actually the 'second wave', and is a mutation from the first one which is why people suddenly started dying from it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There are several types of vaccine in development, ranging from the conventional inactivated part of the protein coat to more modern RNA sequences which work as a sort of gene therapy. This is good because multiple different mechanisms and technologies improve the chances that at least one of them will work. The Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine and the Moderna vaccine look very interesting.

The current thinking on immunity is that there are at least two major contributions to immunity, and they probably work together.

One is through antibodies. It appears that people who get exposed to the virus pretty much all develop antibodies, but the amount of antibody, and the length of time it lasts may be lower in asymptomatic patients, who presumably got a lower load of virus. Most people exposed will have some immunity through this route.

The other side, and possibly the real story, is T-cell immunity. Good evidence that some people do not develop antibodies but develop activated T-cells which will attack and kill the virus. Recent studies looking for activated T-cells have shown quite promising results with a much higher prevalence in the community than expected. See link below for a not very technical news story.

T cells

Taken together, there may be a better reservoir of immunity in the population than thought. Both effects may exist together, so exposure through natural infection or vaccination may result in initial antibody response of variable degree and duration, but a longer lasting T-cell activation.
		
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Thank you for this. So many ( of us ) have half baked theories and beliefs that something like this is valuable in getting ordinary folk to understand ( and have some optimism😀)


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			A lot further and longer than anyone expected. Daughter in law has been shielding since the start due to a compromised immune system. She had a chat with her specialist last week now she's been 'released' and was basically told go out and enjoy yourself, the risk to her mental health is far greater than the risk from c19 at the moment in our area.
The specialist also said they were seeing antibodies in bloods taken from people well into last year, so the theory is emerging that the hit in March was actually the 'second wave', and is a mutation from the first one which is why people suddenly started dying from it.
		
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There are studies of antibody prevalence suggesting that around 10-15% outside London, and a bit higher inside, have antibodies. There is some doubt about some of the assays which are thought to have detected antibodies in samples from last year. If there had been any meaningful numbers of cases, there would have been people in ICUs with the characteristic symptoms. The role of T-cells I described in a previous post may change the picture, but it shouldn't yet translate into medical advice to shielding patients. 

If the specialist told your DiL she had antibodies and was unlikely to be able to contact Covid anytime soon, fair enough. If he was telling her that there is enough immunity out there that means it ain't a risk any more, I don't know any doctors who share that view, and I certainly don't.


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Thank you for this. So many ( of us ) have half baked theories and beliefs that something like this is valuable in getting ordinary folk to understand ( and have some optimism😀)
		
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Optimism is the right approach. Think optimistically but proceed cautiously for now.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 3, 2020)

A woman at golf swears her son has had it twice. Certainly a 2nd positive test but not sure the first bout of illness was tested as it was early on.

Possible or coincidence do you think @Ethan


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

Are they checking bloods taken for antibodies as a matter of course. Would seem sensible to. Got my annual check up next week which normally involves blood tests. Wondering if they check for covid antibodies at the same time as a matter of course now.


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Sure, and I was trying to add to the discussion rather than rebut. It is an important issue. The idea of behavioural fatigue was one which influenced Govt to delay lockdown, even though there was no evidence that it would occur here, or had occurred anywhere else in a way that undermined response to the virus. I suspect it was cover for Johnson not wanting to do something perceived by his libertarian wing as unpopular. And as it turns out, people have responded pretty well with lockdown overall. With clearer messaging I think we should have seen it even better.
		
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Have to agree, I was surprised at the response and thought there would be far more deviation.


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			A woman at golf swears her son has had it twice. Certainly a 2nd positive test but not sure the first bout of illness was tested as it was early on.

Possible or coincidence do you think @Ethan

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There were reports of people in China testing positive then later getting symptoms and testing positive again. Later reanalysis showed that the earlier tests were wrong and should have been negative.

It is impossible to say that something can't ever happen, there are all sorts of variations in people, and some have weird immune systems, but the general view now is that people do not get reinfected. They can have a prolonged single course, but more likely one of the two episodes wasn't Covid.


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## Billysboots (Aug 3, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs. BiM is due to have an operation.  Hospital just phoned about it, oh, and your bloods are back; you might like to know that you've got Coronavirus antibodies...

Never been sick, never noticed that she had anything beyond a mild seasonal bug.  How far has this spread already?
		
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I said precisely the same when my antibody test came back positive. I had merely felt slightly out of sorts, and certainly not ill, during the few days I think I had it. I think I may already have said, 40% of our office have tested positive for antibodies and only one colleague had felt genuinely unwell - he suspected seasonal flu.

To date 300k positive tests in the U.K. That number is meaningless because it doesn’t come close to the true number of infections.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There were reports of people in China testing positive then later getting symptoms and testing positive again. Later reanalysis showed that the earlier tests were wrong and should have been negative.

It is impossible to say that something can't ever happen, there are all sorts of variations in people, and some have weird immune systems, but the general view now is that people do not get reinfected. They can have a prolonged single course, but more likely one of the two episodes wasn't Covid.
		
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Thanks. Kind of what I thought as many people had an awful bug early in 2020 and have since convinced themselves it was Covid.


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## Hobbit (Aug 4, 2020)

2 night clubs down on the Playa closed by the authorities last Thursday as a number of customers found to have the virus had been there. 24 staff at one of them since confirmed as having it. Local numbers, after good numbers during lockdown are rising significantly. Announcements on FB from each of the local town halls are being posted at least once a day showing new outbreaks.

The holiday season started, and a lot of northern Spaniards arrived. Many of the apartment block car parks are now full. And from having numbers in the teens locally, some villages and towns having none, we're now seeing a worrying rise.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks. Kind of what I thought as many people had an awful bug early in 2020 and have since convinced themselves it was Covid.
		
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Hardly surprising that, when people who have had no symptoms like Mrs. BiM test positive, people who have had  symptoms believe they have had it.  Hardly an unreasonable assumption on their part.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			2 night clubs down on the Playa closed by the authorities last Thursday as a number of customers found to have the virus had been there. 24 staff at one of them since confirmed as having it. Local numbers, after good numbers during lockdown are rising significantly. Announcements on FB from each of the local town halls are being posted at least once a day showing new outbreaks.

The holiday season started, and a lot of northern Spaniards arrived. Many of the apartment block car parks are now full. And from having numbers in the teens locally, some villages and towns having none, we're now seeing a worrying rise.
		
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This sounds like a repeat of what happened at the beginning. I'm surprised the govt haven't stopped the summer exodus to the coasts from the north. Draconian but surely better than the alternative.


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## Hoganman1 (Aug 4, 2020)

Up until a month ago, I didn't know anyone who had the virus. Now, I know four people who have had it and recovered and sadly, one who has died.


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hardly surprising that, when people who have had no symptoms like Mrs. BiM test positive, people who have had  symptoms believe they have had it.  Hardly an unreasonable assumption on their part.
		
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Not unreasonable at all. Cough and tempe


Blue in Munich said:



			Hardly surprising that, when people who have had no symptoms like Mrs. BiM test positive, people who have had  symptoms believe they have had it.  Hardly an unreasonable assumption on their part.
		
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I know a few NHS staff who have had it, but also a few who were convinced they had it but later tested antibody negative


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Not unreasonable at all. Cough and tempe


I know a few NHS staff who have had it, but also a few who were convinced they had it but later tested antibody negative
		
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We've had a few of those. A lot went sick late 2019 and soon after Christmas with viral symptoms (before Covid really hit the news and we knew what the symptoms were) and so assumed they had already had it. Had the test and came back negative


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2020)

We are told by our leading scientists and medical experts that we are at the limit of what can be safely 'opened-up' given the current level of infection and the current efficiency of our Test and Trace.  What then do we shut down to allow schools to open if/as they must reopen.  Pubs? Shops?  Or do we tell the scientists and medical experts 'thankyou for your advice, we recognise your concerns, however we are going to re-open the schools but are not going to (re)close anything else' to 'compensate'.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are told by our leading scientists and medical experts that we are at the limit of what can be safely 'opened-up' given the current level of infection and the current efficiency of our Test and Trace.  What then do we shut down to allow schools to open if/as they must reopen.  Pubs? Shops?  Or do we tell the scientists and medical experts 'thankyou for your advice, we recognise your concerns, however we are going to re-open the schools but are not going to (re)close anything else' to 'compensate'.
		
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There is a false dichotomy between getting medical control of the virus and maintaining the economy. The economy will not recover properly until this virus is properly controlled. That lesson was learned in the Spanish flu pandemic. US cities which locked down hard and fast recovered sooner and better than those that prevaricated. The US is seeing some of that repeating itself now in Texas and Arizona. Our current Test and Trace is pitifully inadequate, it won't control anything other than Serco's bottom line. The problem with further opening up is that incremental opening up can lead to exponential growth in disease. There is too large a reservoir of virus in the community at present. It isn't coming from returning holidaymakers, it has been circulating for months. 

In my opinion, opening schools is safer than pubs and restaurants. Much as I would love to go back to football matches, public crowds like that could be disastrous.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is a false dichotomy between getting medical control of the virus and maintaining the economy. The economy will not recover properly until this virus is properly controlled. That lesson was learned in the Spanish flu pandemic. US cities which locked down hard and fast recovered sooner and better than those that prevaricated. The US is seeing some of that repeating itself now in Texas and Arizona. Our current Test and Trace is pitifully inadequate, it won't control anything other than Serco's bottom line. The problem with further opening up is that incremental opening up can lead to exponential growth in disease. There is too large a reservoir of virus in the community at present. It isn't coming from returning holidaymakers, it has been circulating for months.

In my opinion, opening schools is safer than pubs and restaurants. Much as I would love to go back to football matches, public crowds like that could be disastrous.
		
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The Test and Trace *capacity *must be in place.  So something can't be working correctly.

As a concerned critic of how well it is doing observed - given there are three levels in the T&T system - when you multiple three percentages each of about 80% you get 50%.  And I understand that that 50% has to get to about 68% for the T&T system to be deemed effective.  And for that you require nearly 90% successful tracing at each level.

So schools *or *pubs/restaurants - or schools *and *pubs/restaurants.  The choice for me is easy - but will be less so for others.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are told by our leading scientists and medical experts that we are at the limit of what can be safely 'opened-up' given the current level of infection and the current efficiency of our Test and Trace.  What then do we shut down to allow schools to open if/as they must reopen.  Pubs? Shops?  Or do we tell the scientists and medical experts 'thankyou for your advice, we recognise your concerns, however we are going to re-open the schools but are not going to (re)close anything else' to 'compensate'.
		
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Are they not including the opening of schools as part of the limit.


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## Bunkermagnet (Aug 5, 2020)

I don’t understand why this new 90 min test (that is supposed to be lots more accurate than other tests)  isnt rolled out so the whole population has a mandatory test during a 1 week period. Everything is too peace meal and reactive rather than proactive and all encompassing


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Test and Trace *capacity *must be in place.  So something can't be working correctly.

As a concerned critic of how well it is doing observed - given there are three levels in the T&T system - when you multiple three percentages each of about 80% you get 50%.  And I understand that that 50% has to get to about 68% for the T&T system to be deemed effective.  And for that you require nearly 90% successful tracing at each level.

So schools *or *pubs/restaurants - or schools *and *pubs/restaurants.  The choice for me is easy - but will be less so for others.
		
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Testing and tracing is basic old school public health. It could work and should work. It has done so in other countries. The first huge mistake was when Govt stopped it on March 12th citing capacity problems. This was a disastrously bad decision, at the very time it was needed most. What they should have done, and what was suggested at the time was to scale up PHE local tracing and draft in other health brokers with transferable skills, e.g. district nursing staff, public health doctors etc. Instead when it restarted it was given to Serco and Dido. The very first week results were announced, they boasted that of 8100 cases referred, over 4500 agreed to provide contacts. But that week, 23000 positive cases were identified, so the actual hit rate was no better than 20%. And the failure to test contacts is a huge problem. 

The idea of test and trace is that you identify cases, test their contacts (as suspected cases) to find more positive cases, identify their contacts and so on until the next layer has no positive tests, i.e. the transmission trial runs cold. This is critical for a disease with asymptomatic transmission. Failing to test contacts is ignoring asuympmatic transmission, which we know is important. And the ay testing is set up makes this easy. By the time a case identifies, gets a test and gets a result, several days will have passed. By the time they reach the contact, it is perfect timing to do a test, around day 6 or 7. The whole thing could work so much better. The app is a sideshow more about funnelling money to key political contacts. It isn't needed. 

Oh, and the same week that Dido reported 4500 people reached, she failed to mention that the great majority of those had been reached by PHE, not her T&T service. I am not sure there is a key threshold for effectiveness, it is proportional. Complete coverage is not necessary, although would be great, but it needs to do a lot better than currently, and there is no chance that will happen without a major overhaul. The Govt, naturally, has lobbed another big contract, this time to McKinsey, to do that review. That is another waste of money.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 5, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I don’t understand why this new 90 min test (that is supposed to be lots more accurate than other tests)  isnt rolled out so the whole population has a mandatory test during a 1 week period. Everything is too peace meal and reactive rather than proactive and all encompassing
		
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I think it would be fascinating to do this. It probably needs to be done regionally, work north to south, south to north, county by county. Get a real idea of what is going on, where we stand. Relying on people showing symptons before being tested as the guide for the virus is a bit half a job imo


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think it would be fascinating to do this. It probably needs to be done regionally, work north to south, south to north, county by county. Get a real idea of what is going on, where we stand. Relying on people showing symptons before being tested as the guide for the virus is a bit half a job imo
		
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Testing only symptomatic is disastrous and certain to miss a lot of important transmission. There are some issues around the number of false negatives and positives with mass testing, so targeted testing is probably wiser for now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Testing only symptomatic is disastrous and certain to miss a lot of important transmission. There are some issues around the number of false negatives and positives with mass testing, so targeted testing is probably wiser for now.
		
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I understand it is probably more practical and cost effective but haven't they found in areas where they have tested everyone, whole hospitals, closed off Italian hilltop towns etc that around 40% of positive tests are on people who have shown no symptoms? At the moment we are missing those in the general population of the UK as we do not mass test. Those people are free to wander and, unknowingly, potentially spread the virus.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I understand it is probably more practical and cost effective but haven't they found in areas where they have tested everyone, whole hospitals, closed off Italian hilltop towns etc that around 40% of positive tests are on people who have shown no symptoms? At the moment we are missing those in the general population of the UK as we do not mass test. Those people are free to wander and, unknowingly, potentially spread the virus.
		
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More than 40%, probably. Asymptomatic transmission, especially originating from people who came into the UK in Feb, March, April is the origin story of the UK Covid pandemic.

I am not against mass testing, especially if it can be done without having a swab shoved into the back of the nose, but the interpretation of the results needs more caution the lower the prevalence. Choosing higher risk populations (NHS staff, care home residents, people in hotspots) mitigates some of those cautions.

Mass antibody testing, and if possible mass testing for Covid sensitive T-cell activation (another aspect of immunity) would be very interesting. Some interesting work on that at the moment. May be that the immunity in the population is much stronger than we think.

Nature paper on T-cell


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## DRW (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is a false dichotomy between getting medical control of the virus and maintaining the economy. The economy will not recover properly until this virus is properly controlled. *That lesson was learned in the Spanish flu pandemic. US cities which locked down hard and fast *recovered sooner and better than those that prevaricated. The US is seeing some of that repeating itself now in Texas and Arizona. Our current Test and Trace is pitifully inadequate, it won't control anything other than Serco's bottom line. The problem with further opening up is that incremental opening up can lead to exponential growth in disease. There is too large a reservoir of virus in the community at present. It isn't coming from returning holidaymakers, it has been circulating for months.

In my opinion, opening schools is safer than pubs and restaurants. Much as I would love to go back to football matches, public crowds like that could be disastrous.
		
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Don't necessary disagree with what you are trying to say.

I didn't think most countries or states implemented full lockdown measures for Spanish flu in the main. When I read up about it, I remember some certainly shut certain premises, banned crowds etc and implementation stuff like social distancing, quite different to a lockdown in my eyes...… Lockdowns are an interesting matter and history will tell us how effective lockdowns are. 

We have done most of the stuff that was done for Spanish flu(to late perhaps, I don't disagree) and these have been tightened over time not loosen in thoery, unless people choose to ignore them.

Also an important factor when comparing Spanish flu with Covid, is that the death rate was higher with Spanish flu and it killed all ages(think there was an bias towards working population age and below iirc), so basically all elements of society were much more at risk, with no known cross protection from previous flus with T cells or antibodies.(and medical science was much worse, ie the treatment of such cases was really dodgy!!). Lots going on.

All these factors are not true with Covid, we need to protect the venerable in particular(don't dispute other ages are affected, even when 'recovered' but). 

There is the balance as we are trashing the economy, cancer treatment, younger peoples lives(so under say 55s) and everything else imho. People who haven't had the virus(or will never have the virus or people who have had the virus) are going to die from the decisions made. As you would be aware there are hundreds of thousands of early referrals for cancer screening that has not happened, that is not good news and plenty of people will die early. We are looking at probably 1-2 million people lost jobs now(lots still on furloughed) and the knock on effects of that, to health.

I'm not really looking backwards at what has happened in this post and what could have been done. Wwe need to learn but looking at the future with social distancing measures in place.

A fine balance between medical, money, life and death and I suppose freedoms should be thrown into the mix as well, lets hope for the sake of all of us, the world and governments get this approximately correct.

I do know some opinions on here, have far too much covid bias or anti-government bias.

All depressing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Are they not including the opening of schools as part of the limit.
		
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I don't think so.  It was Chris Whittey who said (at the PMs press conference last week) that the government had reached the “outer limit” of how far the lockdown could be eased. “The idea we can reopen everything and keep the virus under control is clearly wrong,”

I suppose there is ambiguity in that as schools are open (or they were).  But I think the implication is that - yes - open schools - but if we do so then we'll have to close down something we have recently re-opened or we risk going over the tipping point.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			...What they should have done, and what was suggested at the time was to scale up PHE local tracing and draft in other health brokers with transferable skills, e.g. district nursing staff, public health doctors etc. Instead when it restarted it was given to Serco and Dido.
		
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Indeed - I thought the point (and what I believe we were led to believe by the government) was to employ 18,000 individuals will skills and experience - preferably in something medical/clinical or with background delivering difficult news and supporting those contacted. That's why my Mrs applied (a retired BC clinical nurse specialist).  But she wasn't asked for any form of interview, not required.  Instead it seems that the majority employed are frankly no more than call centre agents reading from a script - with no real understanding of the virus - or the skills on delivering difficult news that can persuade those contacted of the importance of what they are being asked to do and to provide.

And what are the numbers?  218,000 contacts made over 8 weeks by 27,000 tracers.  Now that's almost exactly one contact a week for each tracer.  And we don't know whether a 'contact' is a phone call made - or actually someone spoken to - and whether the contacts are individuals or could include multiple calls to the same individual trying to get through.  Who knows.  But it is not great - no matter how much it is 'bigged' up.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - I thought the point (and what I believe we were led to believe by the government) was to employ 18,000 individuals will skills and experience - preferably in something medical/clinical or with background delivering difficult news and supporting those contacted. That's why my Mrs applied (a retired BC clinical nurse specialist).  But she wasn't asked for any form of interview, not required.  Instead it seems that the majority employed are frankly no more than call centre agents reading from a script - with no real understanding of the virus - or the skills on delivering difficult news that can persuade those contacted of the importance of what they are being asked to provide.
		
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This is the new world of employment. Minimising costs means low wages, little training and slavishly following the algorithm.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't think so.  It was Chris Whittey who said (at the PMs press conference last week) that the government had reached the “outer limit” of how far the lockdown could be eased. “The idea we can reopen everything and keep the virus under control is clearly wrong,”

I suppose there is ambiguity in that as schools are open (or they were).  But I think the implication is that - yes - open schools - but if we do so then we'll have to close down something we have recently re-opened or we risk going over the tipping point.
		
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Whitty was saying that this is on the edge of getting out of control again and not to blame him when it does.


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## bobmac (Aug 5, 2020)

Should the two threads about the covid virus be merged?


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## ger147 (Aug 5, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Should the two threads about the covid virus be merged?
		
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No, they should self-isolate for 10 days as there is quite clearly cross contamination. And someone should contact the Brexit thread and ask it to do the same.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

ger147 said:



			No, they should self-isolate for 10 days as there is quite clearly cross contamination. And someone should contact the Brexit thread and ask it to do the same.
		
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Well played, sir.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This is the new world of employment. Minimising costs means low wages, little training and slavishly following the algorithm.
		
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Indeed - when we looked on the NHS Professionals website we found that there were in fact two roles - one at £20/hr for the tracer role and curiously another that we weren't aware of for call handlers paid a rate of half that.  We thought that the 18,000 were all to be the former.  My understanding is that there are in fact about 7,000 of the former (skilled nurses/clinicians/practitioners etc) and 20,000 of the latter.

How does this relate to how did if affect me?  Well - my Mrs didn't get a job


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - I thought the point (and what I believe we were led to believe by the government) was to employ 18,000 individuals will skills and experience - preferably in something medical/clinical or with background delivering difficult news and supporting those contacted. That's why my Mrs applied (a retired BC clinical nurse specialist).  But she wasn't asked for any form of interview, not required.  Instead it seems that the majority employed are frankly no more than call centre agents reading from a script - with no real understanding of the virus - or the skills on delivering difficult news that can persuade those contacted of the importance of what they are being asked to do and to provide.

And what are the numbers?  218,000 contacts made over 8 weeks by 27,000 tracers.  Now that's almost exactly one contact a week for each tracer.  And we don't know whether a 'contact' is a phone call made - or actually someone spoken to - and whether the contacts are individuals or could include multiple calls to the same individual trying to get through.  Who knows.  But it is not great - no matter how much it is 'bigged' up.
		
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Why would the system need  anything other than a call centre approach?

And who was led to believe that nursing professionals were to be employed?

Who are all these professionals with an "understanding of the virus"? After all we have been told often enough that this is  a new and evolving illness and has puzzled many of the experts.


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## spongebob59 (Aug 5, 2020)

ger147 said:



			No, they should self-isolate for 10 days as there is quite clearly cross contamination. And someone should contact the Brexit thread and ask it to do the same.
		
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Will the Scottish part of the forum wait a further week before doing the same thing ?


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Why would the system need  anything other than a call centre approach?

And who was led to believe that nursing professionals were to be employed?

Who are all these professionals with an "understanding of the virus"? After all we have been told often enough that this is  a new and evolving illness and has puzzled many of the experts.
		
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Because people don't respond well to call centre algorithm and scripted anonymous people, obviously, and it is possible to find people at ground level you can't reach on the phone. 

There is plenty of understanding of how contact tracing works and how transmission happens in populations. You don't have to sequence the virus's genome to do it effectively. Other countries have done it the old fashioned way and done it much better than the UK.  

And of the people traced during the first few weeks of the NHS Track and Trace system, more than 80% were traced by local PHE staff at barely no extra cost to normal. The Track and Trace system is massively expensive and not worth a fraction of it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Because people don't respond well to call centre algorithm and scripted anonymous people, obviously, and it is possible to find people at ground level you can't reach on the phone.

There is plenty of understanding of how contact tracing works and how transmission happens in populations. You don't have to sequence the virus's genome to do it effectively. Other countries have done it the old fashioned way and done it much better than the UK. 

And of the people traced during the first few weeks of the NHS Track and Trace system, more than 80% were traced by local PHE staff at barely no extra cost to normal. The Track and Trace system is massively expensive and not worth a fraction of it.
		
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So did we need to recruit additional staff and, if so, do those recruited need specific medical skills as appears to be suggested by SilH?


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## chellie (Aug 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So did we need to recruit additional staff and, if so, do those recruited need specific medical skills as appears to be suggested by SilH?
		
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I think they were recruited as it was expected that loads would be needed. Sital is the call centre company. Think I might have posted the link for SiLHs son.


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## Ethan (Aug 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			So did we need to recruit additional staff and, if so, do those recruited need specific medical skills as appears to be suggested by SilH?
		
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We needed to allow existing tracing staff to do their jobs with modest increases in staff but mostly short term additional support drafted in from other locals in the NHS and community temporarily not doing their usual daytime job. The specific medical skills needed are not virology but public health and communications skills. A retired nurse may be ideal.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			We needed to allow existing tracing staff to do their jobs with modest increases in staff but mostly short term additional support drafted in from other locals in the NHS and community temporarily not doing their usual daytime job. The specific medical skills needed are not virology but public health and communications skills. A retired nurse may be ideal.
		
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Your last point is definitely one of experience as I am afraid that throughout my life and contact as a patient and a  patient's relative the one skill that I have consistently found  missing from many in the nursing profession is the  ability to communicate. 

Perhaps I have been singularly unfortunate.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 5, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Your last point is definitely one of experience as I am afraid that throughout my life and contact as a patient and a  patient's relative the one skill that I have consistently found  missing from many in the nursing profession is the  ability to communicate.

Perhaps I have been singularly unfortunate.
		
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Communication is a skill and like any other some are better than other and although it should improve with experience sadly that isn't always the case


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 5, 2020)

Update from No 10.

When I said Covid19 will be all over by Christmas I did not state which year.

When I said everyone in England would be only 30 minutes away from their nearest Covid Test Centre I assumed that everyone could afford to hire a helicopter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2020)

I didn’t realise until this evening that management of the test and trace programmes of Scotland, NI and Wales have effectively been kept ‘in-house’ In their respective NHS organisations, whilst that of England has been contracted out - to Serco.

But going back to when Recruitment for test and trace was launched, I am sure the implication was that 18,000 skilled communicators or with relevant other experience (or something like that) would be employed.  I don’t think I expected 75% of the workforce to be call centre agents working off a script - and we now hear only making one contact a week over the last 8 weeks - some only making  one over longer than a week.   Anyway - it’s what it is...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Communication is a skill and like any other some are better than other and although it should improve with experience sadly that isn't always the case
		
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True.

I think my concern was the assumption that a retired nurse might be expected to automatically have that skill.

As you say some might and others might not.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 7, 2020)

First visit to a supermarket for me since early March.

Quite impressed with the set up.
One way system on the entry doors, sanitisor with the basket handles, fairly quiet with all but one teenager wearing masks.
All socially distancing.
SS checkouts all protected.
Felt quite safe.


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## Beezerk (Aug 8, 2020)

I was working in Preston all of last week, I'm a smidge worried now 😲


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## Ethan (Aug 8, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I was working in Preston all of last week, I'm a smidge worried now 😲
		
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You probably shouldn't be. The risk of getting it is made up of two things, the amount in the local area, prevalence, and then the risk that someone with it gives it to you. Even then, you could turn out to be an asymptomatic carrier and know nothing about it until you get a positive antibody test in a couple of months. The virus is definitely around, especially in higher risk places like Preston, but that doesn't mean it is common. It is probably less than 1% in most parts of the town, way less in some. And if you practice social distancing, as far as you can, wear masks in shops etc, the chance of a case transmitting it to you is also not high. 

Don't be worried, be careful.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 8, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I was working in Preston all of last week, I'm a smidge worried now 😲
		
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Were you hanging out with millenials?


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## Beezerk (Aug 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Were you hanging out with millenials?
		
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I was in the same pub as a few 👀


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 9, 2020)

Now that pubs are open and the weather is fine, people are less inclined to have garden visitors which is a god send.

Neighbours shouldn’t be seen or heard ideally. It was torturous through “lockdown”.


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## huds1475 (Aug 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - my Mrs didn't get a job 

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We know. You've been mentioning it for months


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

I wasn't quite sure which of the two threads to post this in but this seemed the most likely. Track and trace......

I have been in a few golf clubhouses, cafes since this was brought in. Name and number taken or written in by me. That's it. No mention of where I am sitting in the room, no details of when I arrive or leave. If someone in that room tests positive how will they know if I was near them or even in the room at the same time? Am I missing something or is it being carried out by most in an entirely flawed way? Surely they need to know the time I was in, the location of where I was sat in comparison to the person testing positive?

Does anyone know more about this?

(Before anyone goes for the traditional cheap and political dig, my experience has been the same in both England and Scotland)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I wasn't quite sure which of the two threads to post this in but this seemed the most likely. Track and trace......

I have been in a few golf clubhouses, cafes since this was brought in. Name and number taken or written in by me. That's it. No mention of where I am sitting in the room, no details of when I arrive or leave. If someone in that room tests positive how will they know if I was near them or even in the room at the same time? Am I missing something or is it being carried out by most in an entirely flawed way? Surely they need to know the time I was in, the location of where I was sat in comparison to the person testing positive?

Does anyone know more about this?
		
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We have to put time of arrival and departure in the log at the Clubhouse, haven’t been anywhere else so can’t comment.

I have seen the barcode sign on the doors advertised locally, were you scan it on arrival and that records all details and makes it easier to trace you if required.


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## GB72 (Aug 11, 2020)

Local pub is taking details and noting times of arrival and departure.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Local pub is taking details and noting times of arrival and departure.
		
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Local O'Neils has a QR scan reader to log details and guy at front of house taking details for those without QR reader. Seems to be working well as ordering has to be done via O'Neils app and table service. They seem quite strict on movement, even to the loos and ensuring people follow the direction arrows. How this compares to say 8.00pm on a Friday when it starts getting busy I don't know but definitely working well in the afternoons


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## Beezerk (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I wasn't quite sure which of the two threads to post this in but this seemed the most likely. Track and trace......

I have been in a few golf clubhouses, cafes since this was brought in. Name and number taken or written in by me. That's it. No mention of where I am sitting in the room, no details of when I arrive or leave. If someone in that room tests positive how will they know if I was near them or even in the room at the same time? Am I missing something or is it being carried out by most in an entirely flawed way? Surely they need to know the time I was in, the location of where I was sat in comparison to the person testing positive?

Does anyone know more about this?

(Before anyone goes for the traditional cheap and political dig, my experience has been the same in both England and Scotland)
		
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It seems to be different in every establishment, some have just sign in and contact details, some have sign in and out with a time, some have a bar code system.
Ironically, I recall Wetherspoons saying quite loud and clearly they will be strictly abiding by all the track and trace procedures, the two in Preston city centre I visited had nothing, one looked like it was going to turn into a nightclub at around 9.45pm.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			We have to put time of arrival and departure in the log at the Clubhouse, haven’t been anywhere else so can’t comment.

I have seen the barcode sign on the doors advertised locally, were you scan it on arrival and that records all details and makes it easier to trace you if required.
		
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The local Costa had the barcode system but were not promoting it so most people did not notice. I tried to use it but the website it connects to was down so we never ended up being able to use it .

In the case of your club the timing is an improvement on what I have seen but if they don't know where you have sat that still seems slightly flawed, (no criticism intended of the club who are doing better than every other club I've been to so far, I'm trying to get my head around this). If I came to play at your place, sat at one end of the clubhouse and someone at the other end tested positive, why would I be taking off two weeks from work to quarantine? I am nowhere near that person. When I saw this being used in Germany the cafe they went to made a note of your table so they could pinpoint who sat where and at what time.

Quarantining for 2 weeks is a massive deal, particularly if you work, so if I am getting a call asking for this to happen I want some clear information that I have genuinely been near someone who has tested positive, not just I was in the same building, possibly at the same time.


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## road2ruin (Aug 11, 2020)

Most of the places that I've been in seem to be operating on the basis of taking time in/out. From a personal point of view I would definitely not quarantine myself on the basis of possibly being in the same place with someone, I would want confirmed timings.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The local Costa had the barcode system but were not promoting it so most people did not notice. I tried to use it but the website it connects to was down so we never ended up being able to use it .

In the case of your club the timing is an improvement on what I have seen but if they don't know where you have sat that still seems slightly flawed, (no criticism intended of the club who are doing better than every other club I've been to so far, I'm trying to get my head around this). If I came to play at your place, sat at one end of the clubhouse and someone at the other end tested positive, why would I be taking off two weeks from work to quarantine? I am nowhere near that person. When I saw this being used in Germany the cafe they went to made a note of your table so they could pinpoint who sat where and at what time.

Quarantining for 2 weeks is a massive deal, particularly if you work, so if I am getting a call asking for this to happen I want some clear information that I have genuinely been near someone who has tested positive, not just I was in the same building, possibly at the same time.
		
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All sensible points mate, but I don’t know if the size of the room, distance from the “infected”, what they touched, if they went the toilet 30 seconds (whatever), matter or are taken into consideration when they track and trace.

It might be as black and white as you were there for the same time as them and that’s it.🤷‍♂️


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## willistrong (Aug 11, 2020)

We got a pay cut during the quarantine. Now I'm looking for another job.


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## Slab (Aug 11, 2020)

I see parts of NZ back to short term lockdown while they trace the appearance/cause of 4 new cases (this after 100 clear days)


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## garyinderry (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The local Costa had the barcode system but were not promoting it so most people did not notice. I tried to use it but the website it connects to was down so we never ended up being able to use it .

In the case of your club the timing is an improvement on what I have seen but if they don't know where you have sat that still seems slightly flawed, (no criticism intended of the club who are doing better than every other club I've been to so far, I'm trying to get my head around this). If I came to play at your place, sat at one end of the clubhouse and someone at the other end tested positive, why would I be taking off two weeks from work to quarantine? I am nowhere near that person. When I saw this being used in Germany the cafe they went to made a note of your table so they could pinpoint who sat where and at what time.

Quarantining for 2 weeks is a massive deal, particularly if you work, so if I am getting a call asking for this to happen I want some clear information that I have genuinely been near someone who has tested positive, not just I was in the same building, possibly at the same time.
		
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Isnt everyone able to get tested now.  If you get the call then you get tested. 

Its advisable everyone who is present on the day gets tested.


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## GB72 (Aug 11, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Isnt everyone able to get tested now.  If you get the call then you get tested.

Its advisable everyone who is present on the day gets tested.
		
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Even if you are filling in once the voluntary covid surveys, if you fill in a symptom then they will offer you a test straight away.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Isnt everyone able to get tested now.  If you get the call then you get tested.

Its advisable everyone who is present on the day gets tested.
		
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I think you only get a test if you show symptons, outside of NHS, Care Workers etc. I agree with your point though


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## garyinderry (Aug 11, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you only get a test if you show symptons, outside of NHS, Care Workers etc. I agree with your point though
		
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If its only symptoms, that's where the whole thing falls down.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 11, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			If its only symptoms, that's where the whole thing falls down.
		
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I think so. I may be out of date on that and the guidelines may have changed. I hope so, what you suggest makes total sense.


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## Hobbit (Aug 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			All sensible points mate, but I don’t know if the size of the room, distance from the “infected”, what they touched, if they went the toilet 30 seconds (whatever), matter or are taken into consideration when they track and trace.

It might be as black and white as you were there for the same time as them and that’s it.🤷‍♂️
		
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In terms of all the variations of virus spread I'd expect there to be a blanket, "you were there," reason behind notifications. 

For example, is there aircon or blowers in the building? If a sneeze, or even breath, leaves the body at 'x' feet per second, what happens if there's aircon or 'y' number of air exchanges per hour.

The basic calculation of how far a sneeze can travel is fairly straightforward. If S=ut+1/3at(squared), and a sneeze travels at.... think early in the thread I worked it out at 30 feet, without factoring in gravity. Add in your in a pub with zero air exchanges, no aircon, and you get an idea of how vague the guidelines might really be.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 11, 2020)

As of this morning we are a Covid free hospital. Last patient discharged and no new admissions. Nonce in ICU for a month now. Lull before the storm no doubt but a lot of debriefing going on especially amongst the consultants on their treatment regimes and management on PPE ordering and storage, escalation areas and which areas we keep as Covid free and hot Covid zones. Hopefully at least when the next wave comes while it'll still be full on and hard every day we'll have some salient knowledge behind our decisions


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## andycap (Aug 11, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As of this morning we are a Covid free hospital. Last patient discharged and no new admissions. Nonce in ICU for a month now. Lull before the storm no doubt but a lot of debriefing going on especially amongst the consultants on their treatment regimes and management on PPE ordering and storage, escalation areas and which areas we keep as Covid free and hot Covid zones. Hopefully at least when the next wave comes while it'll still be full on and hard every day we'll have some salient knowledge behind our decisions
		
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How much longer is the nonce expected to be in there for ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 11, 2020)

andycap said:



			How much longer is the nonce expected to be in there for ?
		
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DOH - sweaty fingers slipping. None in ICU!!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			In terms of all the variations of virus spread I'd expect there to be a blanket, "you were there," reason behind notifications.

For example, is there aircon or blowers in the building? If a sneeze, or even breath, leaves the body at 'x' feet per second, what happens if there's aircon or 'y' number of air exchanges per hour.

The basic calculation of how far a sneeze can travel is fairly straightforward. If S=ut+1/3at(squared), and a sneeze travels at.... think early in the thread I worked it out at 30 feet, without factoring in gravity. Add in your in a pub with zero air exchanges, no aircon, and you get an idea of how vague the guidelines might really be.
		
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Did you mean (1/2)at^2?  Of course my simple sum might not apply to fluid mechanics and airflow


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## Hobbit (Aug 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you mean (1/2)at^2?  Of course my simple sum might not apply to fluid mechanics and airflow 

Click to expand...

Yes it should read 1/2... dyslexic fingers. The 3 vectors of force equations are some of the few I remember from O Level physics. What they don't take into account is air resistance.


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## SaintHacker (Aug 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As of this morning we are a Covid free hospital. Last patient discharged and no new admissions. Nonce in ICU for a month now. Lull before the storm no doubt but a lot of debriefing going on especially amongst the consultants on their treatment regimes and management on PPE ordering and storage, escalation areas and which areas we keep as Covid free and hot Covid zones. Hopefully at least when the next wave comes while it'll still be full on and hard every day we'll have some salient knowledge behind our decisions
		
Click to expand...

Why are you so sure there will be another wave? To my mind now we know far more of what we're dealing with, how it transmits, how best to treat it and how to prevent it spreading surely we are in a far better position to stop a second wave than we were this time last year when everyone wrote it off as a touch of flu?


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## Slab (Aug 13, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Why are you so sure there will be another wave? To my mind now we know far more of what we're dealing with, how it transmits, how best to treat it and how to prevent it spreading surely we are in a far better position to stop a second wave than we were this time last year when everyone wrote it off as a touch of flu?
		
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I think there will be more waves of it
We’ve eradicated it in this country and have no positive tests within the community for 108 days… but I think we will get a 2nd wave. The occasional repatriation flight has shown us that as soon as the borders reopen we will have someone coming in on the first day who brings it back to this island and unfortunately I don’t believe that the knowledge &/or understanding of what to do is matched by a commitment from the public to do the right thing/behave the right way. 
So while it’ll be smaller and easier to manage, sadly it’ll still be another ‘round’ of lockdown while its brought under control


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## Mudball (Aug 13, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Why are you so sure there will be another wave? To my mind now we know far more of what we're dealing with, how it transmits, how best to treat it and how to prevent it spreading surely we are in a far better position to stop a second wave than we were this time last year when everyone wrote it off as a touch of flu?
		
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HID in the NHS and all of them expecting/preparing for a second wave.  We may be in a better position, but they see data differently to us.  Unlikely last time, no one wants/expects a full lockdown.  There are many factors in play here - weather, clarity of govt rules, the great british common sense, etc etc.  This will continue till they have a vaccine or other drug on the shelf


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 13, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Why are you so sure there will be another wave? To my mind now we know far more of what we're dealing with, how it transmits, how best to treat it and how to prevent it spreading surely we are in a far better position to stop a second wave than we were this time last year when everyone wrote it off as a touch of flu?
		
Click to expand...

We all hope there isn't a second wave but we're definitely preparing better and we have had more time to download the data from the first wave and work out what we did well and not so well and learn form that. We have more time to get PPE in which will help particularly at the outset of a second wave. I think it'll come because the R number still remains high for the country as a whole and we're seeing spikes in certain areas. I see it becoming a seasonal illness as we get it under control with vaccines but until then I think a number of factors will mean there will be a national second surge. Whether we can get away without a national lockdown and whether government has learned the lessons from the way it handled the initial outbreak remains to be seen


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## road2ruin (Aug 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Whether we can get away without a national lockdown and whether government has learned the lessons from the way it handled the initial outbreak remains to be seen
		
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Whatever happens with a second wave I just cannot see there being a national lockdown again, the economy wouldn't cope with it and I doubt many would comply. We have to maintain the distancing, the masks and whatever else it takes to keep it in check but a lockdown would cause irreplaceable damage to the country IMO.


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## GB72 (Aug 13, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Whatever happens with a second wave I just cannot see there being a national lockdown again, the economy wouldn't cope with it and I doubt many would comply. We have to maintain the distancing, the masks and whatever else it takes to keep it in check but a lockdown would cause irreplaceable damage to the country IMO.
		
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Totally agree. The original message was never to totally stop people getting it, that cannot be achieved. The aim was to ensure that the NHS was not overwhelmed and that was achieved. Any further steps need to be at a local level only. I really cannot see another national lockdown, the economy would not sustain it, I suspect another furlough scheme would be unaffordable and so people would be locked down with at best a nominal income in a large number of circumstances. Cannot see that happening.


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## IanM (Aug 13, 2020)

Mum mum has had to go into a Care Home.  We were not allowed to inspect, visit or choose.  We've not been allowed to visit.

On the plus side, the Home are demonstrating serious rigour in keeping their residents safe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Yes it should read 1/2... dyslexic fingers. The 3 vectors of force equations are some of the few I remember from O Level physics. What they don't take into account is air resistance.
		
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Indeed why I hesitated to suggest that you'd got it wrong...you might have been including such as a simple approximation to the impact of the Coriolis force. 

Too many clever folks on this forum...


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## BrianM (Aug 13, 2020)

IanM said:



			Mum mum has had to go into a Care Home.  We were not allowed to inspect, visit or choose.  We've not been allowed to visit.

*On the plus side, the Home are demonstrating serious rigour in keeping their residents safe.*

Click to expand...



You have to take some comfort in that they are trying to do the right thing to keep your Mum and other residents safe.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2020)

IanM said:



			Mum mum has had to go into a Care Home.  We were not allowed to inspect, visit or choose.  We've not been allowed to visit.

On the plus side, the Home are demonstrating serious rigour in keeping their residents safe.
		
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That's a tough one. I guess they have a good reputation.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			HID in the NHS and all of them expecting/preparing for a second wave.  We may be in a better position, but they see data differently to us.  Unlikely last time, no one wants/expects a full lockdown.  There are many factors in play here - weather, clarity of govt rules, the great british common sense, etc etc.  This will continue till they have a vaccine or other drug on the shelf
		
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The only otherway is a really tough crackdown on those groups creating a wave. We have been very easy going on offenders in the UK but that may need changing dramatically.


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## fundy (Aug 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The only otherway is a really tough crackdown on those groups creating a wave. We have been very easy going on offenders in the UK but that may need changing dramatically.
		
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yep definitely time to crack down on those making M&S sandwiches for sure!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2020)

fundy said:



			yep definitely time to crack down on those making M&S sandwiches for sure!!!!!
		
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The bacon always was a bit suspect 🤔


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 14, 2020)

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/foo...-clubs-being-banned/ar-BB17XdbL?ocid=msedgdhp 

Good ol SPFL and SFA on the ball as per normal


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 14, 2020)

Any convoy's going out from Dover going to get our boys home safely from France.


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## Mudball (Aug 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Any convoy's going out from Dover going to get our boys home safely from France.
		
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Priti says anyone attempting to come back on small boats will be shot...


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 20, 2020)

Bugger

Got a confirmed case back on the unit. Hope it's an outlier and not the start. A little concerned seeing as the first recorded UK death was in the hospital, and that seemed to open the flood gate.


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## Mudball (Aug 20, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Got a confirmed case back on the unit. Hope it's an outlier and not the start. A little concerned seeing as the first recorded UK death was in the hospital, and that seemed to open the flood gate.
		
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Never good mate.. hopefully outlier.  The local gossip in the playing fields is that there has been a surge in local cases in the area.  Dont know how true or its source, you are not very far from me.   hopefully it will all go away


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Never good mate.. hopefully outlier.  The local gossip in the playing fields is that there has been a surge in local cases in the area.  Dont know how true or its source, you are not very far from me.   hopefully it will all go away
		
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We wait and see. At least we've contingency plans in place this time and have done planned based on what we did well and badly. We'll see what happens but I have a feeling I'll be moving offices again as I'm based near the side rooms we use for quarantine


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## BrianM (Aug 21, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Got a text from NHS Track and Trace.
Seems I was somewhere in the vicinity of someone last week who now has Covid so now having to self-isolate til next week...
Went for a test earlier, which was delightful 😢, feel great so hopefully no issues.
		
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Just watch yourself, make sure you have plenty of paracetamol, I was like you then within hours it hit me like a ton of bricks, pretty rough experience.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Got a text from NHS Track and Trace.
Seems I was somewhere in the vicinity of someone last week who now has Covid so now having to self-isolate til next week...
Went for a test earlier, which was delightful 😢, feel great so hopefully no issues.
		
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Do you know how long the contact was for and how close, indoors or outdoors?


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bugger

Got a confirmed case back on the unit. Hope it's an outlier and not the start. A little concerned seeing as the first recorded UK death was in the hospital, and that seemed to open the flood gate.
		
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Isolated cases will crop inevitably up all over the place, can't be avoided and nothing to worry about unless it turns into a local outbreak. In that case, with Dido in charge of the new Public Health organisation, we are all screwed.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 23, 2020)

I have been selected as part of the random testing exercise so said yes and kit arrived, being collected tomorrow.

I'm already freaking out a little at the description to wipe over both tonsils 5 times then back of throat. Cleaning my back teeth can have me gagging.

Someone reassure me...


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## spongebob59 (Aug 23, 2020)

I've had the test twice now, didn't think it was that bad.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

Traminator said:



			No they don't give you that info.
I don't know what their criteria is but I think it's just if you pass by someone in the same general area.
		
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But for an exposure to be adequate to merit isolation, there needs to be prolonged (15 mins) contact and/or close contact (1m or less), and if you were both wearing masks, in a supermarket, say, the risk is negligible.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 23, 2020)

We be just cancelled our accommodation in Valencia in October.  Group of six couples and too many in the group either can’t travel or don’t want to travel. So that is it.  Let’s see how things are for our flights closer to the time...if they aren’t not cancelled and they won’t offer us a rebooking sometime in the future then we lose our £360.  So be it.  Money already spent.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Isolated cases will crop inevitably up all over the place, can't be avoided and nothing to worry about unless it turns into a local outbreak. In that case, with Dido in charge of the new Public Health organisation, we are all screwed.
		
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Of course there will be outliers and isolated cases (although the nurse in charge was waiting on a patient to come up to the unit as I left Friday flagged as suspected Covid, so we could have a couple in by the time I go back at 6.30 tomorrow morning) and this news isn't so good https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...ouble-figure-spike-coronavirus-cases-18813901


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Of course there will be outliers and isolated cases (although the nurse in charge was waiting on a patient to come up to the unit as I left Friday flagged as suspected Covid, so we could have a couple in by the time I go back at 6.30 tomorrow morning) and this news isn't so good https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...ouble-figure-spike-coronavirus-cases-18813901

Click to expand...

Isolated doesn’t necessary mean only 1.  Sporadic cases perhaps a better term. Don’t get me wrong, it’s going to get worse again, but probably not for a month or two.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 24, 2020)

Well I did the test and it was ok. Weird ticking at first in back of throat and then gag reflex hit! Nose irritated for a few minutes but again not bad so hope I did it correctly.


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## bobmac (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Isolated doesn’t necessary mean only 1.  Sporadic cases perhaps a better term. Don’t get me wrong, *it’s going to get worse again*, but probably not for a month or two.
		
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Another prediction based on zero evidence meant to scare people.
How many times have we been told there's a new wave /spike/increase in covid cases on the way


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Another prediction based on zero evidence meant to scare people.
How many times have we been told there's a new wave /spike/increase in covid cases on the way  

Click to expand...

VE day celebrations
BLM Protests
Liverpool Title Win
Bournemouth beaches, repeatedly

All of the above fit the criteria of spikes on the way but never came. 

I'm not saying they wont but perhaps people need to roll back from the level of doom a little.


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Another prediction based on zero evidence meant to scare people.
How many times have we been told there's a new wave /spike/increase in covid cases on the way  

Click to expand...

It is not based on zero evidence. Here is the evidence: ECDC website

Scroll down to the graph of cases. Happy to hear your analysis of why there is not a clear rise. 

i don't know how many times you have been told there is a spike coming, but the reports I have seen have all said that the spike is doming in October. Not sure how you can be confident that is wrong yet.


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## Rooter (Aug 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Another prediction based on zero evidence meant to scare people.
How many times have we been told there's a new wave /spike/increase in covid cases on the way  

Click to expand...

I'm with Ethan, it's coming. How big and bad, no one knows, will it kill as many? maybe not? Could it actually be good for the wider community immunity longer term? 

But on my weekly conference call last week with my team across Europe, all contacts were telling similar stories of consistent increases in new cases. Italy was the worst, New cases almost doubling daily. Average age of infected now 34.

Is this down to better/more testing? probably. Should we be being dismissive about it? I don't think so. 

PS. I am just a muggle with an opinion.


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

Rooter said:



*I'm with Ethan*, it's coming. How big and bad, no one knows, will it kill as many? maybe not? Could it actually be good for the wider community immunity longer term?

But on my weekly conference call last week with my team across Europe, all contacts were telling similar stories of consistent increases in new cases. Italy was the worst, New cases almost doubling daily. Average age of infected now 34.

Is this down to better/more testing? probably. Should we be being dismissive about it? I don't think so.

PS. I am just a muggle with an opinion.
		
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You are a rare person indeed, then. 

There may be a terminology issue. Is it a second wave, a spike or a continued rumbling number of cases which will go up and down with local or regional outbreaks? Who knows, and who cares. We do know that there is still a reservoir of disease in the population and a lot of older and vulnerable people who have not yet been exposed.

It may well be, and I suspect it is, that a growing proportion of the population is developing full or partial immunity through exposure or because of cross reactivity with other coronaviruses, but there are still plenty of possible cases left over.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Isolated doesn’t necessary mean only 1.  Sporadic cases perhaps a better term. Don’t get me wrong, it’s going to get worse again, but probably not for a month or two.
		
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On the plus side came in today and that patient is still the only one and they are potentially fit to discharge today. I do agree with you that the October date based on the data seems logical and we've put initial plans in for staffing/leave for end of September/October.


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			On the plus side came in today and that patient is still the only one and they are potentially fit to discharge today. I do agree with you that the October date based on the data seems logical and we've put initial plans in for staffing/leave for end of September/October.
		
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It is the combination of cooler weather, more indoor activity, less UV light and the increasing incidence of other strains on the immune systems that make autumn and winter bad news. Covid is not likely to be as seasonal as flu per se, but it will take advantage of greater vulnerability and easier transmissibility.


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## bobmac (Aug 24, 2020)

Rooter said:



			Italy was the worst, *New cases almost doubling daily*.
		
Click to expand...

Aug 17...320 cases  4 deaths
Aug 18...401           5 deaths
Aug 19...642           7 deaths
Aug 20...840           6 deaths
Aug 21...947           9 deaths
Aug 22...1071         3 deaths
Aug 23...1209         7 deaths

So not doubling daily, not even almost


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## Foxholer (Aug 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Another prediction based on zero evidence meant to scare people.
How many times have we been told there's a new wave /spike/increase in covid cases on the way  

Click to expand...

A tenner says there'll be at least 1 'new wave' of cases (spike implies time period is very short) across England before Christmas!
Up for it? If the parameters are too vague, I'd likely to be happy for you to define them.
Btw. People seem to need to be 'scared' into believing Covid is an ongoing threat! I know from, experience at work, that folk have got blaze about the threat. In spite of (or perhaps because of) a load of arguably OTT rules introduced, basic ones are being ignored/broken!+


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## Foxholer (Aug 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



*Aug 17...320 cases*  4 deaths
Aug 18...401           5 deaths
Aug 19...642           7 deaths
Aug 20...840           6 deaths
Aug 21...947           9 deaths
Aug 22...1071         3 deaths
Aug 23...1209         7 deaths

So not doubling daily, not even almost
		
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Trebling in 5 days is still an alarming increase!


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## GB72 (Aug 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Trebling in 5 days is still an alarming increase!
		
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Interesting article on Metro today through (not the most reliable of journalism but where is these days). Professor at Birmingham University stating that 91% of England have not had a new case in 4 weeks and that it is poor collection and use of the data that is producing these 'Spikes'. With the changes to the levels and focus of testing, I am looking more at hospital admissions and fatalities as the best indicator at the moment as a form of direct comparison to what has gone before.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Trebling in 5 days is still an alarming increase!
		
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Whilst all deaths are troubling the rate there is not increasing in the same way as the new cases. Does this mean that hospitals are now better at treating patients with this? If large numbers can catch this but be largely unaffected that is a positive.

The first numbers quoted there are also infections, not necessarily hospital admissions, I think. Those numbers are not as worrying as in the early days when they would have been admissions.


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Whilst all deaths are troubling the rate there is not increasing in the same way as the new cases. Does this mean that hospitals are now better at treating patients with this? If large numbers can catch this but be largely unaffected that is a positive.

The first numbers quoted there are also infections, not necessarily hospital admissions, I think. Infections that are managed at home need not be terrifying.
		
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To an extent. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Covid quickly cleared out a proportion of the most vulnerable, therefore the average death rate for the rest should drop a bit because the average "fitness" is better. 

But it isn't all about deaths. There are a large number of people with residual complications ranging from lung damage, heart failure, kidney failure and other complications of the inflammatory nature of the disease. Chronic fatigue and neuropsychiatric problems are also seen. The idea initially that it either killed you or you would be fine after a week or two is now known to be wrong.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			To an extent. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Covid quickly cleared out a proportion of the most vulnerable, therefore the average death rate for the rest should drop a bit because the average "fitness" is better.

But it isn't all about deaths. There are a large number of people with residual complications ranging from lung damage, heart failure, kidney failure and other complications of the inflammatory nature of the disease. Chronic fatigue and neuropsychiatric problems are also seen. The idea initially that it either killed you or you would be fine after a week or two is now known to be wrong.
		
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I was trying to think of a nice way of of putting your first point but kept failing so left it out. You put it very well 

I take your point, second paragraph.


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## GB72 (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			To an extent. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Covid quickly cleared out a proportion of the most vulnerable, therefore the average death rate for the rest should drop a bit because the average "fitness" is better.

But it isn't all about deaths. There are a large number of people with residual complications ranging from lung damage, heart failure, kidney failure and other complications of the inflammatory nature of the disease. Chronic fatigue and neuropsychiatric problems are also seen. The idea initially that it either killed you or you would be fine after a week or two is now known to be wrong.
		
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Honest question as I am clueless on this area. Would the sorts of cases detailed in your second paragraph necessarily be reflected in hospital admissions as these cases of covid would be serious enough to warrant that or are these instances of cases that are, in their general symptoms, minor enough to be treated by simply isolating at home and it is only later that the long term damage is found. Would any hospitalisations caused by the long term effects of covid be recorded as a covid admission or are they limited to people suffering from the more known respiratory issues.


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Honest question as I am clueless on this area. Would the sorts of cases detailed in your second paragraph necessarily be reflected in hospital admissions as these cases of covid would be serious enough to warrant that or are these instances of cases that are, in their general symptoms, minor enough to be treated by simply isolating at home and it is only later that the long term damage is found. Would any hospitalisations caused by the long term effects of covid be recorded as a covid admission or are they limited to people suffering from the more known respiratory issues.
		
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Some were hospital discharges who went home not 100% but expecting to fully recover and didn't, but there is definitely a set of late onset chronic complications that would not necessitate admission, ranging from chronic lung problems to psychiatric effects.


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## Rooter (Aug 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Aug 17...320 cases  4 deaths
Aug 18...401           5 deaths
Aug 19...642           7 deaths
Aug 20...840           6 deaths
Aug 21...947           9 deaths
Aug 22...1071         3 deaths
Aug 23...1209         7 deaths

So not doubling daily, not even almost
		
Click to expand...

My apologies, took what my colleague said as the truth and I did not qualify, however, He MAY have been talking about Milan only as a possibility? Although it is still increasing at a decent rate..


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## Rooter (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But it isn't all about deaths. There are a large number of people with residual complications ranging from lung damage, heart failure, kidney failure and other complications of the inflammatory nature of the disease. Chronic fatigue and neuropsychiatric problems are also seen. The idea initially that it either killed you or you would be fine after a week or two is now known to be wrong.
		
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People like me, who are immunosuppressed. I personally, don't really want to find out what COVID would do to me thanks, I am asthmatic with a chronic bowel disease (hence am on Immunosuppressants), however physically fitter than I would argue 95% of this forum, it would certainly be interesting how i would react!


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## bobmac (Aug 24, 2020)

Rooter said:



			My apologies, took what my colleague said as the truth and I did not qualify, however, He MAY have been talking about Milan only as a possibility? Although it is still increasing at a decent rate..
		
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No worries, probably my fault, hanging around pedants too long.


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## Rooter (Aug 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			No worries, probably my fault, hanging around pedants too long.
		
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Haha, I'm not smart enough to be pedant bob! ;-)


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## bobmac (Aug 24, 2020)

Rooter said:



			Haha, I'm not smart enough to be pedant bob! ;-)
		
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You don't have to be smart to be a pedant.....far from it.


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## pendodave (Aug 24, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Trebling in 5 days is still an alarming increase!
		
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Lol. 3 to 9 would probably bring the country to a halt...despite it being less than 1% of all deaths for some weeks now.
Probably 10× more people died falling down stairs.
And as for aftereffects. While obviously a concern, I think the aftereffects of our current 'cure' for covid will outnumber them by several orders of magnitude.


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## Foxholer (Aug 24, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Lol. 3 to 9 would probably bring the country to a halt...despite it being less than 1% of all deaths for some weeks now.
Probably 10× more people died falling down stairs.
...
		
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The 'trebling in 5 days' wasn't about deaths - which, if you'd bothered to read the quoted post properly, you should have seen!
It was 'cases' which have gone from90 401 to 1209 in 5 days!
If 1200+ (or even 400) dying/being hospitalised after falling downstairs would, I believe, be cause for considerable concern in most countries!


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## MegaSteve (Aug 25, 2020)

Finally got to attend a clinic I was originally booked for in April... Been two cancellations in the interim... Nursey explained she'd normally be 'juggling' four folk at any one time but with distancing it's now strictly one at a time... Fortunately, for me, no fault found but I am sure delays in service will be sadly impacting on others...


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## Backache (Aug 25, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But for an exposure to be adequate to merit isolation, there needs to be prolonged (15 mins) contact and/or close contact (1m or less), and if you were both wearing masks, in a supermarket, say, the risk is negligible.
		
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As far as I know contact tracing works by taking a proper history from the infected person to determine whether there was significant risk to infection in other people , which includes length of time distance and other precautions taken . Only then is a message sent to self isolate . At least that's how it works in Scotland, think its usually by phone rather than test as well.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Backache said:



			As far as I know contact tracing works by taking a proper history from the infected person to determine whether there was significant risk to infection in other people , which includes length of time distance and other precautions taken . Only then is a message sent to self isolate . At least that's how it works in Scotland, think its usually by phone rather than test as well.
		
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That is how proper contact tracing is done from the index case, it is indeed critical to establish if there has been enough time/proximity for exposure, but in England, if you get a notification from NHS Test and Trace that you have been ID'd as a contact, you are not given any information on what the exposure was or where it occurred. I don't think that is adequate for 2 weeks isolation.


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## Backache (Aug 25, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is how proper contact tracing is done from the index case, it is indeed critical to establish if there has been enough time/proximity for exposure, but in England, if you get a notification from NHS Test and Trace that you have been ID'd as a contact, you are not given any information on what the exposure was or where it occurred. I don't think that is adequate for 2 weeks isolation.
		
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That is the same every where if the first case wishes to maintain confidentiality. It has to be the case , you either have to trust the system or not, there will always be errors but unless you can determine that the errors are large and systematic, casting doubt on the system without sufficient evidence is unhelpful to public health.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Backache said:



			That is the same every where if the first case wishes to maintain confidentiality. It has to be the case , you either have to trust the system or not, there will always be errors but unless you can determine that the errors are large and systematic, casting doubt on the system without sufficient evidence is unhelpful to public health.
		
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I know about contact tracing, I was a public health doctor, and have worked on outbreaks, but the problem is that in most contact tracing scenarios, you identify possible cases then test them, for example nasal swabs in meningitis, other swabs in STIs, and isolation is not necessary in all such cases. 

In this one, despite close contacts being identified as high risk, they don't test, which is even worse where there are asymptomatic cases. Therefore you need to verify the plausibility of each case and the index case may or may not be reliable. Each contact should be able to know more than 'you have been ID'd, you can't go outside the house for 2 weeks, sorry can't tell you any more'. There is no confidentiality breach if you are told that the contact was with a case in Tesco or The Dog and Duck last Tuesday. You don't have to give the name and address.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 25, 2020)

I do wonder how many people are giving correct details for track and trace. I always have but I understand why some may not. Each place I have been to, mainly golf club bars, I have been nowehere near any other table. Most ask for a time you arrive, few ask you to put down when you leave. I could have left a room 10 minutes before an infected person arrives and be rung still. I could be 20m away from an infected person and be rung still.

The phone app talked about being within 1m of an infected person for 15 minutes or more. Our system has us in the same room, no matter the size of room, and at an approximate time. That is hugely loose and I am not keen to isolate for two weeks based on that type of set up. I ultimately would but through gritted teeth and I get why some would not.


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## Backache (Aug 25, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I know about contact tracing, I was a public health doctor, and have worked on outbreaks, but the problem is that in most contact tracing scenarios, you identify possible cases then test them, for example nasal swabs in meningitis, other swabs in STIs, and isolation is not necessary in all such cases.

In this one, despite close contacts being identified as high risk, they don't test, which is even worse where there are asymptomatic cases. Therefore you need to verify the plausibility of each case and the index case may or may not be reliable. Each contact should be able to know more than 'you have been ID'd, you can't go outside the house for 2 weeks, sorry can't tell you any more'. There is no confidentiality breach if you are told that the contact was with a case in Tesco or The Dog and Duck last Tuesday. You don't have to give the name and address.
		
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With STI's , meningitis etc there is not a latency period where testing is useless so you can test them there and then, with covid testing in the incubation preiod is pointless, which is why they are required to isolate rather than test.
Unless you know the circumstances of why the text does not specify the nature of the contact you cannot possibly determine the reasons for confidentiality.


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## road2ruin (Aug 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I do wonder how many people are giving correct details for track and trace. I always have but I understand why some may not. Each place I have been to, mainly golf club bars, I have been nowehere near any other table. Most ask for a time you arrive, few ask you to put down when you leave. I could have left a room 10 minutes before an infected person arrives and be rung still. I could be 20m away from an infected person and be rung still.

The phone app talked about being within 1m of an infected person for 15 minutes or more. Our system has us in the same room, no matter the size of room, and at an approximate time. That is hugely loose and I am not keen to isolate for two weeks based on that type of set up. I ultimately would but through gritted teeth and I get why some would not.
		
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I must admit I don’t think I would isolate for 2 weeks. It’s a huge ask and I would want to be sure that it is warranted rather than an airy fairy, you may have been in the same room as someone for 30 seconds and didn’t come within 10 metres of that person. If it ended up being that loose you could isolate for a couple of weeks and then be caught again if you were especially that unlucky. 

As above though, I don’t have any issues following guidelines and isolating but only if there is definite evidence that it is required.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Backache said:



			With STI's , meningitis etc there is not a latency period where testing is useless so you can test them there and then, with covid testing in the incubation preiod is pointless, which is why they are required to isolate rather than test.
Unless you know the circumstances of why the text does not specify the nature of the contact you cannot possibly determine the reasons for confidentiality.
		
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By the time an index case is symptomatic and tested, then their contacts identified and contacted, at least 5 days will have passed, so a test should be scheduled for day 7 by which time the incubation period is adequately passed for the vast majority. The incubation period varies, and some people show a positive test within a couple of days. That doesn't preclude anyone from being retested if they subsequently develop symptoms.

Failing to test close contacts, which WHO advised we should, is a massive hole in the test and trace plan, although there are other structural problems too.

I would be unwilling to isolate unless I had some credible reason to believe it was justified.


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## Backache (Aug 25, 2020)

Ethan said:



			By the time an index case is symptomatic and tested, then their contacts identified and contacted, at least 5 days will have passed, so a test should be scheduled for day 7 by which time the incubation period is adequately passed for the vast majority. That doesn't preclude anyone from being retested if they subsequently develop symptoms.

Failing to test close contacts, which WHO advised we should, is a massive hole in the test and trace plan, although there are other structural problems too.

I would be unwilling to isolate unless I had some credible reason to believe it was justified.
		
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The incubation period is known to vary,is sometimes quite long and the presymptomatic phase is probably crucial to spreading some results are coming back same day , it is entirely plausible that you can contact contacts sometimes within 48 hours.
In the meantime because the system is imperfect as a former public health doctor you believe that the system should be ignored ?


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Backache said:



			The incubation period is known to vary,is sometimes quite long and the presymptomatic phase is probably crucial to spreading some results are coming back same day , it is entirely plausible that you can contact contacts sometimes within 48 hours.
In the meantime because the system is imperfect as a former public health doctor you believe that the system should be ignored ?
		
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It is quite unlikely that you can contact people within 48 hours except in very unusual circumstances, and there is little evidence it happens often. The index case needs to get tested and results back, then contact Test and Trace and identify contacts, who need to be reached and interviewed. Even so, you can still schedule a test for day 7. 

If you are concerned about presympimatic/asympomatic, then I presume you agree that close contacts should be tested, otherwise you will never know if they may have transmitted to others. NHS Test and Trace is ignoring WHO advice by failing to do so. 

As a former public health doctor, I know that getting people on board requires their trust and belief in the system and an anonymous report by a random person who may or may not remember what you were doing as well as you would is not nearly sufficient.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I had a fleeting dilemna when I had the text, but not isolating was never an option to be honest.
Did I have any symptoms, no.

Was it well over a week later, yes.

*Did I go for a test, yes.*

In the last couple of days, did I actually briefly nip into the supermarket to stock up, happy in the knowledge I'd been given the all-clear the day before (even though the 14 days weren't up), yes 🤷‍♂️.

I work in an enclosed environment, I would never forgive myself if I did actually pass something on to any colleagues, especially those with vulnerable family members.
		
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The bit in bold is the key part of this for me.


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## Backache (Aug 25, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is quite unlikely that you can contact people within 48 hours except in very unusual circumstances, and there is little evidence it happens often. The index case needs to get tested and results back, then contact Test and Trace and identify contacts, who need to be reached and interviewed. Even so, you can still schedule a test for day 7.

.
		
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The contacts are those being contacted it is not contacts of contacts.You cannot just test them becuase you don't know when  they will turn positive .
Yes there may be a case for testing them about day 10 -12 after their  initial contact before you release them from quarantine but testing them on contact tracing may not help.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 25, 2020)

My work involves keeping networks for some major hospital trusts healthy and running - I don't work for the NHS - however am I a key worker?  I only ask semi tongue-in-cheek.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Backache said:



			The contacts are those being contacted it is not contacts of contacts.You cannot just test them becuase you don't know when  they will turn positive .
Yes there may be a case for testing them about day 10 -12 after their  initial contact before you release them from quarantine but testing them on contact tracing may not help.
		
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No, day 7 is fine. Index case gets symptoms, gets tested, IDs 1st round contacts. Those contacts should get tested around day 7 after exposure too. Then those who have positive tests should have their contacts ID'd too, 2nd round contacts, and so on until there are no positive tests. 

You don't know IF they will test positive, but you have a pretty good idea WHEN they will test positive if they test positive at all.

OK, I think we have gone round the houses on this one quite enough. Bye.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The official NHS advice said only go for a test if you have symptoms which I thought was a bit strange.
I phoned 119 and asked for a test, as a key worker I was booked in for a couple of hours later.

PS. Just had a missed call from NHS following up, they'll be phoning back.
		
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It os worse than strange that they only test symptomatics, it is negligent. 

Testing contacts should be routine, otherwise you will miss asymptomatic cases who can transmit. Seems that NHS Test and Trace is not bothered about that.


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## pendodave (Aug 25, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			The 'trebling in 5 days' wasn't about deaths - which, if you'd bothered to read the quoted post properly, you should have seen!
It was 'cases' which have gone from90 401 to 1209 in 5 days!
If 1200+ (or even 400) dying/being hospitalised after falling downstairs would, I believe, be cause for considerable concern in most countries!
		
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Cases are not deaths. It's a false premise.
Over 5000 real, actual deaths a year are caused by falls. That's approx 5x more than covid for the last few months assuming an even distribution through the year. 10s of thousands more suffer life limiting and shortening injuries.
The number of deaths has increased by over 108% amongst the over 85s since 2006.
People die all the time in lots of unpleasant and preventable ways. They always have and they always will. 
It'll probably happen to me, you and everyone else on this board. 
Our 'cure' for one of an uncountable number of ways to die will kill and shorten far more lives than the disease. It'll probably have happened within 12 months and will proceed with gusto over the next 10 years or so. That's what closing down the nhs scanning services and reducing the size of an economy by 20% does.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Cases are not deaths. It's a false premise.
Over 5000 real, actual deaths a year are caused by falls. That's approx 5x more than covid for the last few months assuming an even distribution through the year. 10s of thousands more suffer life limiting and shortening injuries.
The number of deaths has increased by over 108% amongst the over 85s since 2006.
People die all the time in lots of unpleasant and preventable ways. They always have and they always will.
It'll probably happen to me, you and everyone else on this board.
Our 'cure' for one of an uncountable number of ways to die will kill and shorten far more lives than the disease. It'll probably have happened within 12 months and will proceed with gusto over the next 10 years or so. That's what closing down the nhs scanning services and reducing the size of an economy by 20% does.
		
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People who fall tend not to fall on other people who in turn fall on more. You never hear a report saying that one fall in Preston is thought to have led to up to 30 other falls. Falls are isolated events, a transmissible infection is not.


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## Ethan (Aug 25, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Actually, that happened in a pizza 🍕 delivery shop near here.

Can't remember the name 🤔
		
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Were the victims well refreshed?


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## Foxholer (Aug 25, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Cases are not deaths.....
		
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Well, the whole (and singular) point of my post was to highlight that cases had trebled (in 5 days)! 
And FWIW, your subsequent 'argument' is plainly ridiculous! Your logic, if extended, would advocate abandoning all sorts of medical/healing support/care for ANY potentially lethal ailment/malady - simply because folk die from 'all sorts of other causes'!


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 26, 2020)

Only in Scotland
In my local town I saw an old Biddie wearing a crochet face mask.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Only in Scotland
In my local town I saw an old Biddie wearing a crochet face mask.
		
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As effective as knitted swimming trunks (yes I did  )


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## bobmac (Aug 26, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Only in Scotland
In my local town I saw an old Biddie wearing a crochet face mask.
		
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Not this lady then


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 26, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Actually, that happened in a pizza 🍕 delivery shop near here.

Can't remember the name 🤔
		
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Wasn't it Domino's place?


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## Ethan (Aug 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Not this lady then

View attachment 32166

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Well, it meets the legal standard which is just something covering the lower face, but is utterly ineffective.


Swinglowandslow said:



			Wasn't it Domino's place?
		
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They all fell down. Like Dominos. Nice one.


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## drdel (Aug 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Not this lady then

View attachment 32166

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Only applies to blondes


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## Jamesbrown (Aug 28, 2020)

I don’t know what you have to do to get covid but it must be hard work. I was curious as I’ve been amongst it all since it began, and the nature of the job and the amount of people I encounter or share space with numbers 300 plus. It’s usually a festering breeding ground of illness. 
Let’s see what winter brings.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 29, 2020)

My test came back negative which was expected but you never know!


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## ScienceBoy (Aug 29, 2020)

The incorrect and over use of the phrase “U-Turn”


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## Reemul (Aug 30, 2020)

So my niece has tested positive, she is 21, her boyfriend has also tested positive, my other nieces who don't live with her but met with her this week due to a birthday have just been tested but wont get results until tomorrow. If these test positive my family will need to test as we spent time with them a few days ago. Everyone testing positive are asymptomatic apart from one person which caused the others to get tested once she got a positive.

Should not be an issue for the youngsters, hope my wife does not get it though, 3 hole sin her right lung from Pneumonia means it could be really bad for her. She see's very few people, just her sister and mum this week.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 30, 2020)

Reemul said:



			So my niece has tested positive, she is 21, her boyfriend has also tested positive, my other nieces who don't live with her but met with her this week due to a birthday have just been tested but wont get results until tomorrow. If these test positive my family will need to test as we spent time with them a few days ago. Everyone testing positive are asymptomatic apart from one person which caused the others to get tested once she got a positive.

Should not be an issue for the youngsters, hope my wife does not get it though, 3 hole sin her right lung from Pneumonia means it could be really bad for her. She see's very few people, just her sister and mum this week.
		
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Not good news. Hope it works out especially for your wife. There does seem to be an increase in youngsters testing positive, and we've had a couple of nurses forced to self isolate as they live with their brothers or sisters and their siblings have tested positive albeit asymptomatic. Is this perhaps (and I'm being a tad cynical) a sign of them finally being caught up with as they've seemingly been the ones that have flouted self distancing, especially in places like pubs and shops and when they congregated in parks and beaches straight after lockdown ended. Of course there is also a chance these are isolated cases, bearing in mind we've only had one Covid in ICU (and that patient was middle aged).


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not good news. Hope it works out especially for your wife. There does seem to be an increase in youngsters testing positive, and we've had a couple of nurses forced to self isolate as they live with their brothers or sisters and their siblings have tested positive albeit asymptomatic. Is this perhaps (and I'm being a tad cynical) a sign of them finally being caught up with as they've seemingly been the ones that have flouted self distancing, especially in places like pubs and shops and when they congregated in parks and beaches straight after lockdown ended. Of course there is also a chance these are isolated cases, bearing in mind we've only had one Covid in ICU (and that patient was middle aged).
		
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Cant speak for anyone else but I see groups of young people all over that have no intention of self distancing.


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## Billysboots (Aug 30, 2020)

I see news today of a mutated strain (D614G) which has been identified in Indonesia and is, allegedly, ten times more infectious but far less deadly than the original strain. D614G has apparently been circulating in Europe, which may go some way towards explaining the high number of infections and continuing decline in hospital admissions and deaths.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Cant speak for anyone else but I see groups of young people all over that have no intention of self distancing.
		
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It has seemed to be a problem for a while at least around here. Went to a leaving do in a pub on Friday and we had to queue to get in (even at 5.00pm). By the time we left about 7.00 there were loads (pulling several tables together and no intervention from staff - an irritation in itself) there were loads of youngsters outside, hugging and no social distancing. It's the same in the town centres, all hanging around in large groups and in stores


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## Billysboots (Aug 30, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It has seemed to be a problem for a while at least around here. Went to a leaving do in a pub on Friday and we had to queue to get in (even at 5.00pm). By the time we left about 7.00 there were loads (pulling several tables together and no intervention from staff - an irritation in itself) there were loads of youngsters outside, hugging and no social distancing. It's the same in the town centres, all hanging around in large groups and in stores
		
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The younger generation who were mindful of all this back in March, if they even care now are perhaps paying more attention to the death rate than the number of infections. This sort of behaviour is absolutely no surprise.


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## Reemul (Aug 30, 2020)

Yeah my niece is the sort to ignore social distancing. Since we have heard she knew on Tuesday, didn't bother testing till Wednesday evening and went to the birthday party knowing full well she likely had Covid. No thought of anyone else, her cousin, my wife's sister's daughter who also went to the party is devastated, her mum is also high risk due to a stroke at 42 and underlying issues, she already had her husband die at 34.

Really annoying that it's family as everyone knows the family history, there is a lot of us 25 in total and we are all very close and we have multiple high risks and ongoing problems and she knows all this, she is actually my wife's twin brothers daughter. We have worked so hard at social distancing and following the rules but the reality is it only needs one idiot to put people with high risk at risk.


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## Robster59 (Sep 1, 2020)

Well, our area has had tightened restrictions put in place.  No
Coronavirus: Visiting restrictions reintroduced in Glasgow area

people in the Glasgow City local authority area should not meet with people from other households in indoor household settings, whether in these areas or elsewhere. Members of different households can continue to meet outdoors, including in gardens, and in hospitality settings, provided all existing guidance on meeting outdoors is followed
if anyone living in this area is identified as a close contact of someone who has tested positive for COVID-19, they and all those in their household group should self-isolate for 14 days
indoor visits to hospitals and care homes will be limited to essential visits only to protect the most vulnerable. Outdoor visits to care homes are permitted by up to three individuals at a time from no more than two households, in line with current guidance
And we can't put the father-in-law into respite which menans that there is virtually no chance of us going away in the caravan this year.  And my missus really needs a break.
And all because people are just being stupid and selfish.  We're doing everything we can to avoid cross infection yet other people walk around as if it's gone.
I was coming back home from the post office today (that's a separate issue as it's now the only local Post Office left so everyone goes there) and the kids were coming out of school.  Bunched together on the pavement walking home. No social distancing, no masks, nothing.


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## howbow88 (Sep 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The official NHS advice said only go for a test if you have symptoms which I thought was a bit strange.
I phoned 119 and asked for a test, as a key worker I was booked in for a couple of hours later.

PS. Just had a missed call from NHS following up, they'll be phoning back.
		
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This really is strange... I've been working at test sites, and anyone can have a test for any reason. To me, it feels like communication with the general public is providing a lot of mixed messages. 

Another common fault is when you fill in details for a test online, it will eventually show you the closest place to go based on your postcode. Well from the Gatwick area last week, it was saying that the closest site was Swindon! This is despite there being at least 4 test sites within a 20 mile radius of Gatwick, including a site at Gatwick Airport itself.


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## howbow88 (Sep 2, 2020)

What are people's thoughts on going on holiday at the moment? We usually get away 4 times a year (we're not rich - most of the trips are city breaks on Easyjet), so this is the longest we have ever gone without going somewhere... We both want to nip off somewhere we're allowed to go, whether in the UK or not, but we both think it isn't worth the bother in case of local lockdowns or quarantine on return.


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## Beezerk (Sep 2, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			What are people's thoughts on going on holiday at the moment? We usually get away 4 times a year (we're not rich - most of the trips are city breaks on Easyjet), so this is the longest we have ever gone without going somewhere... We both want to nip off somewhere we're allowed to go, whether in the UK or not, but we both think it isn't worth the bother in case of local lockdowns or quarantine on return.
		
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I wouldn't risk it, just doesn't seem a logical and sensible option at the minute.


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2020)

The more people you come in contact with the more chance you have of catching what they've got.
Stay in and watch Netflix, save your money and have a special holiday next year.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 2, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			What are people's thoughts on going on holiday at the moment? We usually get away 4 times a year (we're not rich - most of the trips are city breaks on Easyjet), so this is the longest we have ever gone without going somewhere... We both want to nip off somewhere we're allowed to go, whether in the UK or not, but we both think it isn't worth the bother in case of local lockdowns or quarantine on return.
		
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I wouldn't even contemplate abroad. I know too many people who had or booked holidays, were on edge in the lead up, had them cancelled, had to return early. My SiL, despite our comments, booked to go to corfu recently. She flies a week on Friday except now it is likely to go on the naughty list, already is in Scotland, and it will be cancelled. 

If you want to go away for a weekend stay in the UK, look at the infection maps and see where is low and unlikely to go into lockdown. There are plenty of safe places, particularly outside of cities and major towns. If it was me I'd be looking at a country break, go rural.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 2, 2020)

I wouldn't go abroad anywhere and under any circumstance at the moment. I would have my doubts about going away in the UK as well not so much for infection rates (although there are still areas spiking) but more from an OCD perspective and wondering just how clean my accommodation is. I know they are supposed to give it a thorough clean down between desks and I have no doubt the vast majority will be doing so diligently but I am also certain there will be the odd few that see it as far more of a chore and that a change of sheets, towels and a quick wipe over will suffice and for that reason I'd be nervous. I am sure all would be fine but as HID in particular has underlying conditions I just think at this moment in time going anywhere is worth the risk


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## huds1475 (Sep 2, 2020)

Have a golf trip booked to Portugal end October. I'm not going, losing the money is preferable to getting on a plane. Bringing something back to the family would be pretty selfish too.

Had a lovely week in Dumfries & Galloway in August. Absolutely stunning up there and no crowds. Did us a world of good to get away as a family.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			What are people's thoughts on going on holiday at the moment? We usually get away 4 times a year (we're not rich - most of the trips are city breaks on Easyjet), so this is the longest we have ever gone without going somewhere... We both want to nip off somewhere we're allowed to go, whether in the UK or not, but we both think it isn't worth the bother in case of local lockdowns or quarantine on return.
		
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We have cancelled going to Spain in October (will probably lose the cost of our flight but that's sunk money) as we just don't fancy flying or think it worth the risk, plus some of our party have already pulled out - but we will continue with our booking to Cornwall in three weeks time as our travel insurance covers lockdowns - either at our home location or our rental cottage.  And we've checked with the owner and are comfortable about what she'd offer in any case.


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2020)

Grandkids back to School so grandfather duties ramping back up. Most people seem sensible but the 15minute gap between their admission/release times is a bit of a pain.


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## robert_13 (Sep 2, 2020)

I had booked a golf trip in Morocco on November. With my wife, we decided that it was better cancelling everything this year. Instead, we have decided to book a golf trip in Yorkshire, hoping that there will be no more local lockdown measures over there. I have tried to look for suitable insurance plans, the only thing I found is a golf covers comparator which does not really answer all my questions. Do you think it is risky to book a travel inside the UK for the coming months ? Do you have an insurance plan to recommend in case of anything occurring ? Thanks in advance for your kind advices. Kind regards, Robert


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 2, 2020)

robert_13 said:



			I had booked a golf trip in Morocco on November. With my wife, we decided that it was better cancelling everything this year. Instead, we have decided to book a golf trip in Yorkshire, hoping that there will be no more local lockdown measures over there. I have tried to look for suitable insurance plans, the only thing I found is a golf covers comparator which does not really answer all my questions. Do you think it is risky to book a travel inside the UK for the coming months ? Do you have an insurance plan to recommend in case of anything occurring ? Thanks in advance for your kind advices. Kind regards, Robert
		
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You should be fine unless you are staying in a hotspot area. I don't necessarily see the likely areas being golf trip places but I could be wrong. Where in Yorkshire are you going?

I stayed in Harrogate last week for a couple of days, played local courses and asked to move the days we were playing due to bad weather. The clubs were very accommodating. I see no reason why that would not be the case for you in your example. Clubs are generally pretty friendly like that.


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## huds1475 (Sep 2, 2020)

Assuming you're UK based, risk is low.

If there's a local lockdown that prevents you using the accomodation they'll likely offer you a chance to rebook or a refund.

If a golf resort hotel,  golf would like be as above

Would think most clubs will let you rebook too.

Just check when booking 👍

You're only risk really is you deciding you don't want to go, as opposed to lockdown rules saying you can't, then you're likely to be forfeiting anything you've paid


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## IainP (Sep 2, 2020)

On reported cases, the graphs for Spain & France are looking like that popular at the moment letter, U. Looking a tad out of control.

Russia's is fascinating, such a smooth graph. Someone (not I) might almost think those numbers are being "managed"...


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## Slab (Sep 3, 2020)

Golf club is pretty much back to normal. No masks or distancing in the office either but when commuting its still mandatory to wear them (even walking) plus still need them anywhere public and also mandatory in all shops etc or you won’t get in

Soft opening of the border is starting this week to let people leave the island and increase inbound repatriation for those who've been waiting since March to come home (they will be sent to quarantine centres for 2 weeks) 

No cases in general population for 130 consecutive days...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 3, 2020)

We have been dreading a visit to the Beatson in Glasgow for my wife's final appointment next week.
They rang yesterday to set up a home telephone link.


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2020)

Anyone seen the video of the Scouse lad on the train refusing to wear a mask?
I'd post it but it has some choice language in there.
Complete oxygen thief 🙈


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 4, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Anyone seen the video of the Scouse lad on the train refusing to wear a mask?
I'd post it but it has some choice language in there.
Complete oxygen thief 🙈
		
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It will drain me to watch it. Did he get thrown off? Please tell me British Transport Police picked him up at the next stop?


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## Beezerk (Sep 4, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It will drain me to watch it. Did he get thrown off? Please tell me British Transport Police picked him up at the next stop?
		
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He's arguing with the policeman (like an absolute knob end scum duffler) then looks like he's resisting arrest when the policeman tries to take him off the train.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

Anyone seen the Tory toff who hosted a room meeting for 50 of his pals in London.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ing-for-50-tory-mps/ar-BB18HCb3?ocid=msedgdhp

I wonder if he will be charged,


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Have a golf trip booked to Portugal end October. I'm not going, losing the money is preferable to getting on a plane. Bringing something back to the family would be pretty selfish too.

Had a lovely week in Dumfries & Galloway in August. Absolutely stunning up there and no crowds. Did us a world of good to get away as a family.
		
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OOOOP there. some parts of D&G are more southern than Newcastle.
Glad you enjoyed it, somewhat special once you get past Newton Stewart on the A75.
Not a great choice of golf courses but nothing dreadful.
Where did you stay/play ?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 4, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			He's arguing with the policeman (like an absolute knob end scum duffler) then looks like he's resisting arrest when the policeman tries to take him off the train.
		
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It's here if anyone wants to watch;

https://metro.co.uk/video/police-pepper-spray-train-passenger-refused-wear-face-mask-2242648/

His two mates are as bad.


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## Slab (Sep 4, 2020)

If I had a medical condition that prevented me from wearing a mask then a] I'd have some kind of evidence & b] I’d be more than a bit peeved that I _*wasn’t*_ allowed to wear one and c] I'd be quite apologetic to other passengers

Certainly not belligerent about it like this bloke


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## MegaSteve (Sep 4, 2020)

Are there any medical conditions/reasons why visors cannot be specified as an alternative when masks/facecoverings can't be used...

A mate has COPD and uses a visor rather than a mask and has had no complaints...


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## Billysboots (Sep 4, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's here if anyone wants to watch;

https://metro.co.uk/video/police-pepper-spray-train-passenger-refused-wear-face-mask-2242648/

His two mates are as bad.
		
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I see our friends at the Daily Mail initially ran this with a headline along the lines of “This is the SHOCKING moment police used CS spray on a train passenger for refusing to wear a mask.”

Erm, no, that wasn’t why he was sprayed now, was it? Never ones to let the truth get in the way of (yet another) anti-police rant, the Mail.



Footnote: it would seem, in an effort not to appear like utter halfwits, that the Mail has now edited its headline. The halfwits.


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## stefanovic (Sep 4, 2020)

People who complain about having to come home early from holiday abroad makes me realize how selfish they are.
While most would prefer not to import the virus by staying at home, foreign tourists seem quite happy to increase the risk.

Britain is nearly infinite. For its size it has the most varied scenery and history in the world. So stay here and forget about some overseas destination that sooner or later you may find is no more than a hole anyway.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I see our friends at the Daily Mail initially ran this with a headline along the lines of “This is the SHOCKING moment police used CS spray on a train passenger for refusing to wear a mask.”

Erm, no, that wasn’t why he was sprayed now, was it? Never ones to let the truth get in the way of (yet another) anti-police rant, the Mail.



Footnote: it would seem, in an effort not to appear like utter halfwits, that the Mail has now edited its headline. The halfwits.
		
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Bailed to appear in Court in Jan, the way he was dressed it looked like a bloke on his way home from work, not excusing his behaviour or reaction, but as has been asked, why was he being removed from the train if, as he was stating, he has a medical exemption, ie, how did it get to the point of the BTP having to be called?


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## Papas1982 (Sep 4, 2020)

stefanovic said:



			People who complain about having to come home early from holiday abroad makes me realize how selfish they are.
While most would prefer not to import the virus by staying at home, foreign tourists seem quite happy to increase the risk.

Britain is nearly infinite. For its size it has the most varied scenery and history in the world. So stay here and forget about some overseas destination that sooner or later you may find is no more than a hole anyway.
		
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You mean the people that have gone to countries with lower infection rates than ours?
Not everyone can afford to simply write a holiday off and go next year, or rebook somehwere this year.


For some. 2020 could have been there first holiday in years. If the government say they can go. Why shouldn't they?


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## Ethan (Sep 4, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Are there any medical conditions/reasons why visors cannot be specified as an alternative when masks/facecoverings can't be used...

A mate has COPD and uses a visor rather than a mask and has had no complaints...
		
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There are few medical conditions that genuinely preclude wearing a mask. Asthma is often cited, but asthma is a condition of breathing out not in, and many asthmatic surgeons and theatre staff wear masks all day with no problem. People should not be allowed to self-determine that they have a valid medical condition, since the main benefit of the mask is to others and people should not be able to lightly choose to put others more at risk.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2020)

stefanovic said:



			People who complain about having to come home early from holiday abroad makes me realize how selfish they are.
While most would prefer not to import the virus by staying at home, foreign tourists seem quite happy to increase the risk.

*Britain is nearly infinite*. For its size it has the most varied scenery and history in the world*.* *So stay here* and forget about some overseas destination that sooner or later you may find is no more than a hole anyway.
		
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The availability in the UK over the summer was extremely limited and whilst Britain may be 'infinite' based on some criteria you are using, availability certainly was not. Gone are the days where any foreign holiday was an expensive extravagance and holidaying in the UK is the cheap option.  I was in North Norfolk in the summer and I saw a field on which someone has put a few static caravans. And outside of these were parked a BMW X5, Discovery, and some Mercedes SUV. So unless you had booked a bit ago chances are you'd have the dregs of what is left and pay over the odds for it, with absolutely no guarantee of nice weather.  And in those circumstances can you blame someone for going overseas when at the time the government had said it was OK to travel, with a much better guarantee of weather and probably cheaper than a static caravan in Thornham.

And has already been pointed out, the infection rates are often lower in these resorts than they are in the cities or towns the holiday makers come back to.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 4, 2020)

stefanovic said:



			People who complain about having to come home early from holiday abroad makes me realize how selfish they are.
While most would prefer not to import the virus by staying at home, foreign tourists seem quite happy to increase the risk.

Britain is nearly infinite. For its size it has the most varied scenery and history in the world. So stay here and forget about some overseas destination that sooner or later you may find is no more than a hole anyway.
		
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Yay, can’t wait to be sipping sangria, and donning my best beach shorts while ogling bikini clad women on the east coast next week! 

On a serious note any good dog walking beaches on the Lincolnshire coast and not full of Skegnessians? Driving from Woodhall Spa.


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## Billysboots (Sep 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			The availability in the UK over the summer was extremely limited and whilst Britain may be 'infinite' based on some criteria you are using, availability certainly was not. Gone are the days where any foreign holiday was an expensive extravagance and holidaying in the UK is the cheap option.  I was in North Norfolk in the summer and I saw a field on which someone has put a few static caravans. And outside of these were parked a BMW X5, Discovery, and some Mercedes SUV. So unless you had booked a bit ago chances are you'd have the dregs of what is left and pay over the odds for it, with absolutely no guarantee of nice weather.  And in those circumstances can you blame someone for going overseas when at the time the government had said it was OK to travel, with a much better guarantee of weather and probably cheaper than a static caravan in Thornham.

And has already been pointed out, the infection rates are often lower in these resorts than they are in the cities or towns the holiday makers come back to.
		
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The U.K. has been horrendously expensive for years. If you can get a reasonably priced flight, holidaying in Europe is cheap as chips in comparison.

On more than one occasion we have taken the tunnel, driven into France and rented some wonderful properties for a fortnight and paid less than the weekly price of a static van overlooking the North Sea. It’s an absolute no brainier.

If the U.K. tourist industry continues to struggle they have only themselves to blame. The prices they charge are nothing short of daylight robbery.


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## IainP (Sep 4, 2020)

Not noticed @Hobbit on for a bit, hope all is well. 
Spain's cases at March levels, be interested in how viewed over there.


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## Imurg (Sep 4, 2020)

IainP said:



			Not noticed @Hobbit on for a bit, hope all is well.
Spain's cases at March levels, be interested in how viewed over there.
		
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He was on the forum 27 minutes ago..


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## Britishshooting (Sep 4, 2020)

I've just started going back to the office 2-3 days a week initially as we can socially distance effectively, been working from home since lockdown and doing videocalls like the majority of people it seems. Loads more golf than normal and very productive working days. Although its hard to switch off at home. Some people in the office havn't stepped foot in there since March and don't plant to anytime soon. As long as projects continue to meet deadlines and work loads are completed we have a fairly understanding boss.

We went to Singapore, Bali and Hong Kong in March as UK cases were still low, in fact numbers were higher in those areas and we had some cancelled flights late into our break however nothing was closed and nothing enforced other than temperature checks and hand sanitization.  It was surreal as Coronavirus seriously picked up whilst we were out there and at one stage we thought we were going to be staying for a few more weeks in Bali than planned as it ramped up so quickly.


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## Hobbit (Sep 5, 2020)

IainP said:



			Not noticed @Hobbit on for a bit, hope all is well.
Spain's cases at March levels, be interested in how viewed over there.
		
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Imurg said:



			He was on the forum 27 minutes ago..

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Still around but after being far too bad tempered with a few people I'm reading, not writing.

Covid here is rising. Even our little village, and a few of the villages around us that escaped it first time round have a number of cases. Hospital admissions, including into ICU, are rising along with an increase in the number of deaths.

For our little corner of Spain the numbers jumped quite quickly when the tourists arrived, especially the Madridians. August's over, and getting a decent car parking space isn't a problem again. Hopefully the numbers will start dropping.


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## Foxholer (Sep 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Still around but after being far too bad tempered with a few people I'm reading, not writing.
...
		
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Forum pic doubly appropriate then!
Hope you stay healthy. The tendency for Brits (and Germans) to generally obey 'rules' (even while moaning about them) more than other Europeans seems to me to be demonstrated during the pandemic. I work with a guy from Madeira who has pretty much ignored SD from day 1 - though has tested negative on one of his excursions.
Apathy will be the most likely reason for a further wave of infections imo!


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 5, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			The availability in the UK over the summer was extremely limited and whilst Britain may be 'infinite' based on some criteria you are using, availability certainly was not. Gone are the days where any foreign holiday was an expensive extravagance and holidaying in the UK is the cheap option.  I was in North Norfolk in the summer and I saw a field on which someone has put a few static caravans. And outside of these were parked a BMW X5, Discovery, and some Mercedes SUV. So unless you had booked a bit ago chances are you'd have the dregs of what is left and pay over the odds for it, with absolutely no guarantee of nice weather.  And in those circumstances can you blame someone for going overseas when at the time the government had said it was OK to travel, with a much better guarantee of weather and probably cheaper than a static caravan in Thornham.

*And has already been pointed out, the infection rates are often lower in these resorts than they are in the cities or towns the holiday makers come back to.*

Click to expand...

It isn't as simple as that. The government cannot start selecting just parts, or regions of a country to differentiate whether to quarantine from one and not the other.  Because in practice, some people ,in parts requiring quarantine , would go to the "safe" region to fly home from there. As always, anything to avoid the quarantine. Allowing non quarantine from selected regions is therefore not practicable.
If someone goes abroad to a country against the advise of the government, or having been told that there is a real possibility that quarantine may be imposed on you by the time you are to return, then there is no basis for complaining that it has happened, if it turns out that way.


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## drdel (Sep 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Still around but after being far too bad tempered with a few people I'm reading, not writing.

Covid here is rising. Even our little village, and a few of the villages around us that escaped it first time round have a number of cases. Hospital admissions, including into ICU, are rising along with an increase in the number of deaths.

For our little corner of Spain the numbers jumped quite quickly when the tourists arrived, especially the Madridians. August's over, and getting a decent car parking space isn't a problem again. Hopefully the numbers will start dropping.
		
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Your comments are missed


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			Your comments are missed 

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I’ll second that. 👍


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## Billysboots (Sep 5, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I’ll second that. 👍
		
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Thirded. If there is such a word.


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## drdel (Sep 5, 2020)

We obviously need a "HOBBIT's Comments Matter" movement/thread


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## fundy (Sep 5, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Still around but after being far too bad tempered with a few people I'm reading, not writing.

Covid here is rising. Even our little village, and a few of the villages around us that escaped it first time round have a number of cases. Hospital admissions, including into ICU, are rising along with an increase in the number of deaths.

For our little corner of Spain the numbers jumped quite quickly when the tourists arrived, especially the Madridians. August's over, and getting a decent car parking space isn't a problem again. Hopefully the numbers will start dropping.
		
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sad to see yet another of the better posters on here not posting (as much or at all)


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It isn't as simple as that. The government cannot start selecting just parts, or regions of a country to differentiate whether to quarantine from one and not the other.  Because in practice, some people ,in parts requiring quarantine , would go to the "safe" region to fly home from there. As always, anything to avoid the quarantine. Allowing non quarantine from selected regions is therefore not practicable.
*If someone goes abroad to a country against the advise of the government, or having been told that there is a real possibility that quarantine may be imposed on you by the time you are to return,* then there is no basis for complaining that it has happened, if it turns out that way.
		
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That is literally any foreign travel then. Also if someone went to the Canaries which had a low infection rate and there was a bad outbreak in say Bilbao, then should the person who went to the Canaries be quarantined?  Will all those in in Bilbao fly down to the Canaries before flying home?  Just because there will be a small handful of people who can a) afford to start booking extra flights at short notice and b) are that bothered doesn't mean that you should blanket a whole country or region if any outbreaks are localized to a few towns or areas.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 5, 2020)

fundy said:



			sad to see yet another of the better posters on here not posting (as much or at all) 

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Hopefully the demise of my ill thought out post about opinions on Covid will see him return. Have to say the vitriol that pervaded that particular thread was enough to keep me off the forum.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 5, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The U.K. has been horrendously expensive for years. If you can get a reasonably priced flight, holidaying in Europe is cheap as chips in comparison.

On more than one occasion we have taken the tunnel, driven into France and rented some wonderful properties for a fortnight and paid less than the weekly price of a static van overlooking the North Sea. It’s an absolute no brainier.

*If the U.K. tourist industry continues to struggle they have only themselves to blame*. *The prices they charge are nothing short of daylight robbery*.
		
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Surely they can not be to blame for Covid meaning people can't go on holidays in the UK? It wasn't that they priced themselves out of the market from March to July.

And as for struggling other than from the impact of Covid, then from what I saw by holidaying in the UK over the summer everywhere was rammed. Be interesting to see how that plays out in future years.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 5, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Thirded. If there is such a word.
		
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Good enough for me if it gets our Hobbit back. 👍


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## Billysboots (Sep 5, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Surely they can not be to blame for Covid meaning people can't go on holidays in the UK? It wasn't that they priced themselves out of the market from March to July.

And as for struggling other than from the impact of Covid, then from what I saw by holidaying in the UK over the summer everywhere was rammed. Be interesting to see how that plays out in future years.
		
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I’m not really talking about the impact or otherwise of Covid. As a holiday destination the U.K. has been extortionately expensive for years.

The last time I even contemplated renting a static during the summer holidays I was generally looking at not less than £1k per week. Really? That same year I found a three bed cottage in almost two acres of grounds with private pool in Southern Brittany for £1.2k for a fortnight.

I shudder to think how much that would have cost me in the U.K..


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2020)

Nearly 3k new infections yesterday and mainly through young people.  Something needs doing to make them act more responsibly.


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## road2ruin (Sep 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Nearly 3k new infections yesterday and mainly through young people.  Something needs doing to make them act more responsibly.
		
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For the under 29’s the survival rate is around 99.9997% assuming no underlying health conditions. Can you honestly say that if you were in that age group you’d be taking this whole thing too seriously? Being brutally honest the 21yr old me would have probably been going about life normally, I don’t think I’d be listening too much. These guys have had (and will have) large portions of their lives completely changed in a negative way for a virus that is almost complete harmless to them. Obviously there is the issue of spread to those who are vulnerable however in purely trying to put myself in the mindset of someone of that age.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 6, 2020)

I agree with R2R. With the death rate falling daily And people being told to go out. Pubs opening etc, it’s obvious youngsters were going to mix And their figures rise.

My younger siblings are all living pretty normal lives now. With the exception to that being that when they See family they are keeping more distance.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Nearly 3k new infections yesterday and mainly through young people.  Something needs doing to make them act more responsibly.
		
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The lack of responsibility being evidenced by the number of young people that consider the requirement wear masks on public transport doesn't apply to them.  Unless of course we have a younger generation who have the worst level of underlying health conditions for years...  

No, I'm going for lack of responsibility or selfishness.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 6, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The lack of responsibility being evidenced by the number of you people that consider the requirement wear masks on public transport to them.  Unless of course we have a younger generation who have the worst level of underlying health conditions for years... 

No, I'm going for lack of responsibility or *selfishness*.
		
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I'd argue that is not exclusive to the younger generation.  And indeed they may well throw that accusation back at us oldies.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue that is not exclusive to the younger generation.
		
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I didn't say it was exclusive to the young, I said I believed it was a cause of the younger generation not wearing masks on public transport.


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## road2ruin (Sep 6, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I didn't say it was exclusive to the young, I said I believed it was a cause of the younger generation not wearing masks on public transport.
		
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To be fair, in my area the non wearing of masks doesn’t seem to be with one particular age range, in fact I’d say it’s more the older (40yrs plus) lot who have taken more offence to being asked to wear a mask, most of the younger people I see seem to be doing as told.


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## GB72 (Sep 6, 2020)

From what I have seen near me, the youngsters are good with masks and poor at social distancing whilst the older generation are the opposite, decent social distancing but the masks are on for as little time as possible, incorrectly worn or sometimes not worn at all


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue that is not exclusive to the younger generation.  And indeed they may well throw that accusation back at us oldies.
		
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Its not exclusive to them but the vast number of new infections are from young people, the problem is not how seriously it will effect them (and it will make some of them extremely ill) it's that they are keeping the virus pool large. How would they feel if young people were most at risk of death and older people were not affected badly and older people were acting irresponsibly, I would say in this situation older people would be doing all they could to protect their younger families.


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## Ethan (Sep 6, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			For the under 29’s the survival rate is around 99.9997% assuming no underlying health conditions. Can you honestly say that if you were in that age group you’d be taking this whole thing too seriously? Being brutally honest the 21yr old me would have probably been going about life normally, I don’t think I’d be listening too much. These guys have had (and will have) large portions of their lives completely changed in a negative way for a virus that is almost complete harmless to them. Obviously there is the issue of spread to those who are vulnerable however in purely trying to put myself in the mindset of someone of that age.
		
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It is true that survival rate is very high in young people, but it is becoming clear that there is a much higher risk of complications, even in the young, than first thought. This ranges from fatigue and continued loss of taste to meatier stuff like myocarditis and encephalitis. I think the young should still exercise some caution and not be too blasé.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 6, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair, in my area the non wearing of masks doesn’t seem to be with one particular age range, in fact I’d say it’s more the older (40yrs plus) lot who have taken more offence to being asked to wear a mask, most of the younger people I see seem to be doing as told.
		
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I'm talking about infection rates and it's the young increasing them, who wears masks and how doesn't change that fact.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I was due to visit my mum next weekend but with the latest extension of restrictions that would now be against the rules. However, we could arrange to meet her in a pub or restaurant instead. I just can't see how that can possibly be considered safer.

The government's got this wrong I think.
		
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It depends how much lockdown you are comfortable with and if you would prefer everything to be taken out of your own control.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I was due to visit my mum next weekend but with the latest extension of restrictions that would now be against the rules. However, we could arrange to meet her in a pub or restaurant instead. I just can't see how that can possibly be considered safer.

The government's got this wrong I think.
		
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if it is anywhere close to Barnard castle.. then you should be alright - normal rules dont apply


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## Imurg (Sep 7, 2020)

Going around the shops I see a ridiculous number of people with their face coverings only covering their mouth and not their nose..!
Is there a qualification you can get to be stupid or is it something you're born with..?


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2020)

My eldest daughter is due to give birth in two months time. Ideally, we would like to fly in, mid Oct, a couple of weeks before the due date. We'd use the the time beforehand to visit family and friends, and then be around for the birth. That's the ideal, but there's Covid to consider.

Obviously between now and then things may well change. Quarantines may be lifted and risks may drop considerably. Seems fairly simple. But with a recovering mum and a new born, just what is safe? Do we book flights now, and risk going through several transport hubs, airports and tube, that will have had thousands of people through them? Do we wait till the last minute in the hope that we'll have more up to date data? Do we do it as a road trip with two stop offs in hotels then drive onto Eurotunnel? Or do we make the decision not to travel till the numbers are a lot closer to zero or we've had a vaccine?

Our current thought is not to fly, irrespective of the numbers in the general populace, as the transport hubs might be hot spots. But that still leaves us with the concern of what we might bring across, if we drive, to a recovering mother and a new born. And then three months later we have the same dilemma with number 3 daughter.

We're tying ourselves in knots trying to work out what we're comfortable with...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			My eldest daughter is due to give birth in two months time. Ideally, we would like to fly in, mid Oct, a couple of weeks before the due date. We'd use the the time beforehand to visit family and friends, and then be around for the birth. That's the ideal, but there's Covid to consider.

Obviously between now and then things may well change. Quarantines may be lifted and risks may drop considerably. Seems fairly simple. But with a recovering mum and a new born, just what is safe? Do we book flights now, and risk going through several transport hubs, airports and tube, that will have had thousands of people through them? Do we wait till the last minute in the hope that we'll have more up to date data? Do we do it as a road trip with two stop offs in hotels then drive onto Eurotunnel? Or do we make the decision not to travel till the numbers are a lot closer to zero or we've had a vaccine?

Our current thought is not to fly, irrespective of the numbers in the general populace, as the transport hubs might be hot spots. But that still leaves us with the concern of what we might bring across, if we drive, to a recovering mother and a new born. And then three months later we have the same dilemma with number 3 daughter.

We're tying ourselves in knots trying to work out what we're comfortable with...
		
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Thats a very tough situation for you and I can see how the practicalities and emotions of such a dilemma are so difficult to resolve.  Is there someway you could come over, get a test while isolating for a time before visiting family?. Just a thought.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 7, 2020)

Not sure whats happening in the rest of the country but down here people are being sent to testing stations 50+ miles away when they try to book a test, yet i drove past one of the local testing stations a few times today and each time it was virtually empty. Absolute joke.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Not sure whats happening in the rest of the country but down here people are being sent to testing stations 50+ miles away when they try to book a test, yet i drove past one of the local testing stations a few times today and each time it was virtually empty. Absolute joke.
		
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Isn't the booking system in place to keep the people waiting at the test centre to a minimum?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 7, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Not sure whats happening in the rest of the country but down here people are being sent to testing stations 50+ miles away when they try to book a test, yet i drove past one of the local testing stations a few times today and each time it was virtually empty. Absolute joke.
		
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From the stories I've heard, the one requirement of the test booking staff would appear to be having no idea whatsoever about geography.  I don't know how they allocate the centres, but I do know that when I last used the NHS non emergency service they wanted to send me somewhere miles from home when there was another hospital much nearer, and both had appointments available.  The person at the other end was quite adamant that I didn't know which hospital was closer to my home...


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## SaintHacker (Sep 7, 2020)

Apaprently they've been trying to send people from the mainland to the isle of wight  I suppose as the crow flies its quite close...


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## chellie (Sep 8, 2020)

Testing centre down the road from us at Preston yet none available when DD tried to book one


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## IainP (Sep 8, 2020)

Seemed a pretty balanced summary 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54064339


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 8, 2020)

We were due to go to Turkey next week, for a week, booked in January before it kicked off
Decided not to go, rates are rising over there and are close to the 20/100000 figure the government are using to quarantine.

If we had to quarantine it would mess up H4H and the Islay trip as well as my partners work 

Also didn’t fancy wearing a mask for 7 hours (2 hours at Gatwick, flight and airport other end)

So having a mini mid week break based in Chester instead, 

Wooppee


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2020)

We were planning to visit relatives on the Black Isle in a few weeks time.  But as my aunt is in her late 80s; one of my cousins we'd be travelling to visit is in a high risk (seriously impacting chemo) category, and her husband is in his mid-70s - we are looking at what is happening on infection levels around the country and thinking that we'll have to cancel our trip.  And that will be very disappointing.

But is it _really _for the best...?  Who knows when it'll become 'safe' to visit them, possibly many months?, and who knows what life holds for any of us that could make a decision we make now very regrettable...


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 8, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think you're asking a bigger question than I'm raising. Personally, I'm in favour of more restrictions now that cases are surging again but I'm a bit risk-averse and accept there is a balance to be struck. However, banning me from visiting my mum in her house while leaving pubs open just smacks of a government ducking a hard decision.
		
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This apparent anomaly came up somewhere else and I can't find it . I replied then that the only logical reason I can think of  is that, mindful of trying to keep some pub /restaurant trading going, the  government is trying to keep a balance. If people meet family (or anyone ) in those places, they will keep SD because they will not wish to be seen to do otherwise.
However, it's a fair bet, that in the privacy of a home, there are a significant number who would hug and kiss and SD would go out the window.
I think the government think that that is an unpalatable fact, hence the home restrictions.
It's a case of accepting that not all people will act as responsibly as you would.


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## Slab (Sep 8, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We were due to go to Turkey next week, for a week, booked in January before it kicked off
Decided not to go, rates are rising over there and are close to the 20/100000 figure the government are using to quarantine.

If we had to quarantine it would mess up H4H and the Islay trip as well as my partners work

Also didn’t fancy wearing a mask for 7 hours (2 hours at Gatwick, flight and airport other end)

*So having a mini mid week break based in Chester instead*,

Wooppee
		
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Yeah I'd still be masking up for that


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We were planning to visit relatives on the Black Isle in a few weeks time.  But as my aunt is in her late 80s; one of my cousins we'd be travelling to visit is in a high risk (seriously impacting chemo) category, and her husband is in his mid-70s - we are looking at what is happening on infection levels around the country and thinking that we'll have to cancel our trip.  And that will be very disappointing.

But is it _really _for the best...?  Who knows when it'll become 'safe' to visit them, possibly many months?, and who knows what life holds for any of us that could make a decision we make now very regrettable...
		
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I appreciate that this Covid is a bast....., but surely, it's a no brainier.
The categories of the people involved make the risks extremely high.
The latest news all point to the infection rates ,and so the risks ,getting higher now and towards winter.
The thoughts need to be with what tragedies you are helping to avoid , more than the thoughts of disappointment of not seeing them. Is it possible to use FaceTime or similar?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I appreciate that this Covid is a bast....., but surely, it's a no brainier.
The categories of the people involved make the risks extremely high.
The latest news all point to the infection rates ,and so the risks ,getting higher now and towards winter.
The thoughts need to be with what tragedies you are helping to avoid , more than the thoughts of disappointment of not seeing them. Is it possible to use FaceTime or similar?
		
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Absolutely...but the disappointment of not being able to visit someone for a few months is quite different from possibly never again being able to visit them...a very painful conundrum and dilemma currently faced by the relatives and friends of many - especially of those who are in care homes or who are highly at risk.

But I mustn't let my thinking drift out there...I'll do the right thing and not what my personal will might want me to do.  It's just that sometimes the right thing to do is not _always _quite so blindingly obvious


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## Robster59 (Sep 8, 2020)

It's my Mum's birthday today.  She's 97.  I can't ring her as she's pretty much deaf and so all I can do is get my brother to help me video chat with her but he still has to tell her what I'm saying.  I can't really go to see her as I don't want to put her at risk.  I've sent over the cards, flowers, chocolates, etc. but in reality it's not easy as I haven't seen her since before lockdown and I'm not sure when I will see her again.  
And now we have the number of cases rising in the UK.  I have customers I need to see but our company has travel restrictions in place.  As I cover the UK, I need to overnight in places because it's too far to drive there and back.  Planes, IMHO, are too dangerous, trains seem to be a better option but you could be sat next to anyone for hours on end so driving is the best option.  
Until people realise there is still a problem, and that they have to respect the regulations for everyones sake things aren't going to improve quickly.  We comply with the regulations but sadly more and more people appear not to.
We have lockdown restrictions taking place in Scotland, including the area in which we live, so it's still having a pretty big impact on my life, and that of my family.


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## Dan2501 (Sep 8, 2020)

Numbers of cases back up around 3,000 the last 2 days, which is where we were at back in May. Not great.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I can see your logic but think that’s a bit of a stretch. All it’s really achieving is making people like my mum and I, who’ve been sticking to the rules, consider ignoring it. And that’s probably the thin end of the wedge for many people.
		
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Indeed. 

My wife's birthday in two weeks time and she was thinking of booking 8 of us for a meal.  She asked the restaurant about whether we could do this.  They said yes - on two tables of four - but we had to be from only two households on each table and that wasn't going to be the case (5 households in total) .  They said they wouldn't ask that question and would leave it to us (our conscience) to decide. 

My wife thought - and has changed her mind.  Now just the six of us, self and Mrs plus our two children plus daughter's b/friend and wife's bestie.    But I'm thinking this is still not compliant - not sure.   Though maybe it's OK if we are on separate tables as two x 3s.  With each table just being two households.  We _could _have done what my wife really wanted and the restaurant most probably wouldn't have stopped us - but changed to what we think is just about compliant.

But many - I suspect - are not thinking in this way.

We've also cancelled going out with my 90yr old MiL and brother in law next weekend for my BiL's birthday (they are in a household).  With rising infections my MiL sounded a bit worried and so we're just having a meal at MiLs. 

Oh dear.  But so be it,


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## pauljames87 (Sep 8, 2020)

My wife's pregnancy (well the since march part) was very much affected by covid 

We found out was twins on 19th march at the 3 month scan .. was the first and last scan I was allowed to attend. Due to twins she was given scans every month so was a real kicker every month not going 

Taking extra care coming home from work.. straight into fresh clothes shower and detoling the car just incase 


Dropping her off the morning her waters broke with no bags as she just had to take herself and bags to follow if admitted was so weird and just didn't feel right to us 

Got lucky with the birth that she didn't get on a ward for hours and they didn't need the room so I got to stay from 8am (when labour started) to 7pm when we said to each other I best go so that was nice 

Rules still played a part ...next day one twin in ICU I could go see her but couldn't visit my wife or other twin just 2 wards away lol 

When twin 1 moved to in with wife couldn't see any until they came home 

Then after twin 2 went back in for one night we had to split them up for a night as we didn't feel right to put twin 1 in risk at hospital for no reason. They even had a room for them so they could be there together with mum 

Been a very weird year for sure


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## chellie (Sep 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife's pregnancy (well the since march part) was very much affected by covid

We found out was twins on 19th march at the 3 month scan .. was the first and last scan I was allowed to attend. Due to twins she was given scans every month so was a real kicker every month not going

Taking extra care coming home from work.. straight into fresh clothes shower and detoling the car just incase


Dropping her off the morning her waters broke with no bags as she just had to take herself and bags to follow if admitted was so weird and just didn't feel right to us

Got lucky with the birth that she didn't get on a ward for hours and they didn't need the room so I got to stay from 8am (when labour started) to 7pm when we said to each other I best go so that was nice

Rules still played a part ...next day one twin in ICU I could go see her but couldn't visit my wife or other twin just 2 wards away lol

When twin 1 moved to in with wife couldn't see any until they came home

Then after twin 2 went back in for one night we had to split them up for a night as we didn't feel right to put twin 1 in risk at hospital for no reason. They even had a room for them so they could be there together with mum

Been a very weird year for sure
		
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Must have been very odd for you all. Hope they are both doing well.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 8, 2020)

chellie said:



			Must have been very odd for you all. Hope they are both doing well.
		
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Everyone is good thanks 🙂


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 32310


Everyone is good thanks 🙂
		
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If that doesn't bring a smile to people then they are devoid of all feelings. Gorgeous picture.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If that doesn't bring a smile to people then they are devoid of all feelings. Gorgeous picture.
		
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For every amazing picture there are 30 or so ones of least on of them looking the wrong way ,🤣


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			For every amazing picture there are 30 or so ones of least on of them looking the wrong way ,🤣
		
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That is why phone cameras or digital cameras are utter genius. Keep pressing, delete the rubbish, keep the golden ones. Soooooooo much better than film.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is why phone cameras or digital cameras are utter genius. Keep pressing, delete the rubbish, keep the golden ones. Soooooooo much better than film.
		
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My Samsung does motion images which has been useful 

Get a 5 second clip each photo. So I oause when it looks good and save it lol


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## chellie (Sep 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 32310


Everyone is good thanks 🙂
		
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Fabulous picture😀


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## Billysboots (Sep 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 32310


Everyone is good thanks 🙂
		
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If Mrs BB sees that fantastic pic I’m going to find myself booked in for a vasectomy reversal 😳


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## chrisd (Sep 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			For every amazing picture there are 30 or so ones of least on of them looking the wrong way ,🤣
		
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Lovely Paul!!

I'm a twin and I thought no one got a decent photo of my brother then I realised it's just that he's ugly


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## SocketRocket (Sep 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 32310


Everyone is good thanks 🙂
		
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Congratulations, lovely picture.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 8, 2020)

If the rumoured reports are that it’s 17-21 causing the spikes.

Why don’t the government ban them from gathering? The old were basically scared into staying inside for months. So punish the youngsters instead of everyone else......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2020)

From Monday no more than six together indoor or outdoor- with some exceptions. Does the limit of 2 households also still apply? Clearly it didn’t previously for outdoors groups of up to 30.  So a group of six cannot be from three or more separate households.  We are assuming that this is the case and so as far as my wife is concerned that puts the kibosh on her plans for her birthday weekend.  

One of which was going to London with our daughter (no longer living in the family home so not in our household), and her bestie to have afternoon tea at Claridge’s - even though her bestie lives alone and will have effectively been self isolating for more than two weeks. My Mrs just isn’t willing to break the rule of two households...if that still holds for groups of less than six.


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## GB72 (Sep 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From Monday no more than six together indoor or outdoor- with some exceptions. Does the limit of 2 households also still apply? Clearly it didn’t previously for outdoors groups of up to 30.  So a group of six cannot be from three or more separate households.  We are assuming that this is the case and so as far as my wife is concerned that puts the kibosh on her plans for her birthday weekend. 

One of which was going to London with our daughter (no longer living in the family home so not in our household), and her bestie to have afternoon tea at Claridge’s - even though her bestie lives alone and will have effectively been self isolating for more than two weeks. My Mrs just isn’t willing to break the rule of two households...if that still holds for groups of less than six.
		
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If your daughter and her best friend have formed a social bubble as one lives alone then you are fine as that counts as one household.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			If your daughter and her best friend have formed a social bubble as one lives alone then you are fine as that counts as one household.
		
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They don't.  Daughter lives close to us, and it's my wife's bestie and she lives in Brighton.  Would be OK in Scotland as 8 people from 3 households is allowed.  But we are not in Scotland, and as much as Matt Hancock was very clear on Today this morning about the number being 6 -  he didn't mention (and wasn't asked) about the number of households that can make up that 6.  

So just need clarification if anyone can please - in the context of from next Monday when the 6 limit kicks in - as my wife will contact her bestie later today to cancel, and will also call Claridge's to cancel.  

She has also decided to cancel our restaurant booking that same evening as we will be 6 from four households, and my wife doesn't want us split 3/3 sitting at 2m separated tables 

So be it - as we do our best to do our bit - just hope and wish everyone is as willing...


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## GB72 (Sep 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They don't.  Daughter lives close to us, and it's my wife's bestie and she lives in Brighton.  Would be OK in Scotland as 8 people from 3 households is allowed.  But we are not in Scotland, and as much as Matt Hancock was very clear on Today this morning about the number being 6 -  he didn't mention (and wasn't asked) about the number of households that can make up that 6. 

So just need clarification if anyone can please - in the context of from next Monday when the 6 limit kicks in - as my wife will contact her bestie later today to cancel, and will also call Claridge's to cancel. 

She has also decided to cancel our restaurant booking that same evening as we will be 6 from four households, and my wife doesn't want us split 3/3 sitting at 2m separated tables 

So be it - as we do our best to do our bit - just hope and wish everyone is as willing...
		
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It is 2 households in the 6. In theory it always has been but that is one of the more commonly ignored rules. By the fact that they are putting it in to law to make it easier for the police to enforce, I suggest that this time it will be less of the softly softly approach with fines issued for an breaches.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is 2 households in the 6. In theory it always has been but that is one of the more commonly ignored rules. By the fact that they are putting it in to law to make it easier for the police to enforce, I suggest that this time it will be less of the softly softly approach with fines issued for an breaches.
		
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We guessed the 2 households limit still applied - just that in making things 100% clear he didn’t mention it.  Anyway what my wife will do is go into London with our daughter and we’ll go for a meal just with our son.  

Not what we’d like on an important birthday but there you go.  It really isn’t the end of the world or that important for us to contravene the rules.  The time will come round when we can do what we’d liked to have done.

In terms of enforcement when out I’m thinking we are not too far from having to carry some document that can prove our home address. That way police could ask a group of 6 to prove they are from two households.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We guessed the 2 households limit still applied - just that in making things 100% clear he didn’t mention it.  Anyway what my wife will do is go into London with our daughter and we’ll go for a meal just with our son. 

Not what we’d like on an important birthday but there you go.  It really isn’t the end of the world or that important for us to contravene the rules.  The time will come round when we can do what we’d liked to have done.

In terms of enforcement when out I’m thinking we are not too far from having to carry some document that can prove our home address. That way police could ask a group of 6 to prove they are from two households.
		
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When it was my parents anniversary (ruby) they had booked a hotel for a meal like 50 people or something 

In end ended up being myself, wife, daughter . Mum dad, sister and brother in law 

Tech 3 households 

But they said in the email we could have more and they "wouldn't check addresses" 

So even then (just after re opening) it was lax

Most expensive meal mum's ever paid for she said but hopefully next year can celebrate with her friends and rest of family


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We guessed the 2 households limit still applied - just that in making things 100% clear he didn’t mention it.  Anyway what my wife will do is go into London with our daughter and we’ll go for a meal just with our son. 

Not what we’d like on an important birthday but there you go.  It really isn’t the end of the world or that important for us to contravene the rules.  The time will come round when we can do what we’d liked to have done.

In terms of enforcement when out I’m thinking we are not too far from having to carry some document that can prove our home address. That way police could ask a group of 6 to prove they are from two households.
		
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Just hope it is made crystal clear to the public for the benefit of the Police, after all it is them who will have the hardest job enforcing it.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 9, 2020)

Technically from Monday the grand parents can't come together to see us.. as we a family of 5

Suits me if I can ban my mum and my wife's dad I'm good 🤣🤣

Serious note does seem a bit weird you could be a family of 2 have a family of 4 over who you all work or school etc so say those 6 people are in contact with 10 people each a day 

The only person in my house going out ATM is my eldest to nursey from next week , the twins and my wife obvious reasons 

Myself I go golf once a week and work im on leave for a bit . Smashed covid .and saved My leave for the twins 

So our contact is much less 

Once again different parts of UK different 

But don't want to go into politics after the ban so will stop now

Frustrating


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 9, 2020)

For those that are unaware political comment is not now permitted on this forum

This thread has been temporarily locked and posts that verge on the political will be removed

Further posts that stray will be met with an infraction for the author


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2020)

Its our 50th Anniversary on the 19th. Wanted a party but thats not happening now so we will have a nice few days away in our favourite spot in the West country. Hopefully we can all get together in the future.


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## Old Skier (Sep 9, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its our 50th Anniversary on the 19th. Wanted a party but thats not happening now so we will have a nice few days away in our favourite spot in the West country. Hopefully we can all get together in the future.
		
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Hopefully your not bringing a caravan or a mobile home, we are swamped with the things


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## larmen (Sep 9, 2020)

I can't find a UK source but a German newspaper reports that one person that got a vaccination in teh Oxford trial has been tested positive for Corona virus. Has that been reported in the UK as well?
And what would it mean? Is one enough to stop it all, or could that just be within a margin of error? Like contraception is 99% secure?


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## Ethan (Sep 9, 2020)

larmen said:



			I can't find a UK source but a German newspaper reports that one person that got a vaccination in teh Oxford trial has been tested positive for Corona virus. Has that been reported in the UK as well?
And what would it mean? Is one enough to stop it all, or could that just be within a margin of error? Like contraception is 99% secure?
		
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Half the Oxford trial cohort got placebo. We'd better hope a lot more, predominantly in that group, get it too or it is a bust. 

I don't think media reports of each case are helpful. The trial will have a statistical plan which precisely defines when enough cases have been seen to prove its effectiveness.


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## larmen (Sep 9, 2020)

Cheers Ethan.


Btw, what is it with a 6 people limit for meet ups? Whats teh average family like? About 4 people? Wouldn't 8 make more sense without an actual increase of risk as it is still just 2 households?
I understand stopping 30, but 6 vs 8 seems a weird treshhold looking at what seems to be families, at least around here. Especially with kids going to school/nursery anyway.


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## Ethan (Sep 9, 2020)

larmen said:



			Cheers Ethan.


Btw, what is it with a 6 people limit for meet ups? Whats teh average family like? About 4 people? Wouldn't 8 make more sense without an actual increase of risk as it is still just 2 households?
I understand stopping 30, but 6 vs 8 seems a weird treshhold looking at what seems to be families, at least around here. Especially with kids going to school/nursery anyway.
		
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The higher the number of people, the greater the possible exponential spread if some of them are infected, so risk does increase if the number is larger. I assume the number 6 was based on some modelling and assumptions about family size, and differences in family size in NI and Scotland therefore result in different rules there.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They don't.  Daughter lives close to us, and it's my wife's bestie and she lives in Brighton.  Would be OK in Scotland as 8 people from 3 households is allowed.  But we are not in Scotland, and as much as Matt Hancock was very clear on Today this morning about the number being 6 -  he didn't mention (and wasn't asked) about the number of households that can make up that 6. 

So just need clarification if anyone can please - in the context of from next Monday when the 6 limit kicks in - as my wife will contact her bestie later today to cancel, and will also call Claridge's to cancel. 

She has also decided to cancel our restaurant booking that same evening as we will be 6 from four households, and my wife doesn't want us split 3/3 sitting at 2m separated tables 

So be it - as we do our best to do our bit - just hope and wish everyone is as willing...
		
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As of Monday,  the 6 persons limit for England is from any  number of households  - no longer limited to 2 households.  The difficulty with the old/current system is that the police - or indeed anyone trying to enforce things - had no real means of checking the actual number of households involved. Trouble is, the 4 home nations each have their own rules.


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## Crazyface (Sep 9, 2020)

I'm totally depressed over all this now. No one has got a clue what to do for the best. Lets do this! No lets do this!. Hang on lets do this! 

If things had been done correctly in the first place.....

And don't start me on why four countries are doing things completely different from each other when they are supposed to be together.


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## Lazkir (Sep 9, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm totally depressed over all this now. No one has got a clue what to do for the best. Lets do this! No lets do this!. Hang on lets do this!

If things had been done correctly in the first place.....

And don't start me on why four countries are doing things completely different from each other when they are supposed to be together.
		
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Well, devolution for start, remember that?
But, because even if one country did things perfectly, the other three would never admit to it and so do things differently and then say their way is better. 
Otherwise their countrymen would ask why the hell didn't they do that!
This is the world we live in, saving face is more important than saving lives. ****

*** *Mods, this may look political but it's not. It's just an observation on human nature, honest!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully your not bringing a caravan or a mobile home, we are swamped with the things 

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Wrong part of the West Country, my favourite is Bradford on Avon and certainly no mobile homes for us.


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## Beezerk (Sep 10, 2020)

What seems to be the BBC's anti lockdown stance. I haven't seen or heard one article which isn't moaning about it, there was also an item on their website the other day which was basically saying the latest spike wasn't as bad as it appeared.
Poor poor journalism.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 10, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			If the rumoured reports are that it’s 17-21 causing the spikes.

Why don’t the government ban them from gathering? The old were basically scared into staying inside for months. So punish the youngsters instead of everyone else......
		
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Good idea, but difficult to enforse, there were large groups of teenagers on the beach near us most nights during the summer and even worse at weekends. If you ban then from meeting, They'll find a place to meet anyway.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We guessed the 2 households limit still applied - just that in making things 100% clear he didn’t mention it.  Anyway what my wife will do is go into London with our daughter and we’ll go for a meal just with our son. 

Not what we’d like on an important birthday but there you go.  It really isn’t the end of the world or that important for us to contravene the rules.  The time will come round when we can do what we’d liked to have done.

In terms of enforcement when out I’m thinking we are not too far from having to carry some document that can prove our home address. *That way police could ask a group of 6 to prove they are from two households.[*/QUOTE]

I don't think they'll be checking things like that. If you are a group of 6 then further "break down". checking won't happen. They'll be too busy with the idiots who will be in larger than legal groups.
As has been said, the enforcement of that will be harder this time.
		
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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2020)

6 person rule means that Happy is not happy to be left out, especially as Sneezy was included.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			6 person rule means that Happy is not happy to be left out, especially as Sneezy was included.
		
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Who is going to stand outside with Happy when Snow White is visiting...I guess Grumpy as he'd expect to be excluded...


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## SaintHacker (Sep 10, 2020)

I've got no [problem with restrictions being tightened, its good sense, but why announce it for a few days time? Just do it. All that will happen is this weekend everyone will pile round their mates houses for one last hurrah and were all back to where we were in March. I worked the night before they closed the pubs last time, they were all rammed, spilling out onto the streets. Easy to see where the virus spread


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I've got no [problem with restrictions being tightened, its good sense, but why announce it for a few days time? Just do it. All that will happen is this weekend everyone will pile round their mates houses for one last hurrah and were all back to where we were in March. I worked the night before they closed the pubs last time, they were all rammed, spilling out onto the streets. Easy to see where the virus spread

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You do need to give a little notice so that folks can cancel things that were planned...but I agree - it would seem to have made more sense to have the new rules kicking in after tonight to avoid weekend 'gatherings' and the associated risk these present.  It seem like a timing aimed at minimising the numbers of folks upset by having to cancel their plans for this weekend.


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## DanFST (Sep 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I don't think they'll be checking things like that. If you are a group of 6 then further "break down". checking won't happen. They'll be too busy with the idiots who will be in larger than legal groups.
As has been said, the enforcement of that will be harder this time.
		
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Added to the fact a huge amount of people are no longer at their normal address'. Much easier the new way, group of 7+, get fined.


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## DRW (Sep 10, 2020)

Still looking forward to the day that a family of 7 can get together even outside for a barbie, or we are allowed to cuddle the grandson of almost 5 months old.

All very depressing and rubbish.


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## Billysboots (Sep 10, 2020)

Given the targeted approach to local measures in places like Leicester, I am slightly bemused as to why the “Rule of Six” is nationwide given 75% of England has a low infection rate.


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## robinthehood (Sep 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Given the targeted approach to local measures in places like Leicester, I am slightly bemused as to why the “Rule of Six” is nationwide given 75% of England has a low infection rate.
		
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I'm not a fan of the devolved approach, we were in Wales last week and it seems that you don't have to wear a face mask in shops, but do on public transport. Which then made we wonder what other rules I may not have known..


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			Still looking forward to the day that a family of 7 can get together even outside for a barbie, or we are allowed to cuddle the grandson of almost 5 months old.

All very depressing and rubbish.

Click to expand...

It would really be rubbish if one of you killed a member of your family.


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## DRW (Sep 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It would really be rubbish if one of you killed a member of your family.
		
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You think if 7 of us sit outside and have a barbie, whilst being 8-9 feet away from each other, is going to end up with one of us dying. 

What kind of probability do you think of that happening is ? 

Kind of thinking that is surreal and unbelievable and why these rules make no sense, even to a non risk taker like me. Its plain stupid thinking.


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## GB72 (Sep 10, 2020)

The current change makes a huge difference to me now as a breach becomes an arrestable offence. As such, any fine issued to me has to be reported by me to the solicitors regulation authority and that could end up in sanction, fine or the removal of my practicing certificate. When it was a rule they were not as concerned. As such, even if I was willing to sit in a group of 7 people round at a house, if a seventh person turns up, I have to leave. Spent yesterday cancelling all social events where I would not fully trust the host not to invite more than 6 people.


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## DRW (Sep 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The current change makes a huge difference to me now as a breach becomes an arrestable offence. As such, any fine issued to me has to be reported by me to the solicitors regulation authority and that could end up in sanction, fine or the removal of my practicing certificate. When it was a rule they were not as concerned. As such, even if I was willing to sit in a group of 7 people round at a house, if a seventh person turns up, I have to leave. Spent yesterday cancelling all social events where I would not fully trust the host not to invite more than 6 people.
		
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Yeah agree completely and something I noticed,  know that feeling about the knock on problems with institutes and registrations etc.

Just adds to not taking the risk, but it is not good for the family well being and certainly affects me, but keep ignoring it and hoping there is light at the end...


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## road2ruin (Sep 10, 2020)

It's not often I agree with the Scots however their version of the "Rule of 6" is going to make life so much easier for families by not counting under 12's. In a fortnight we have my mum's birthday, there are 7 of us however one is our daughter who has just turned 6, under the English rules that means one has to stay at home if we stick to those rules.


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## GB72 (Sep 10, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			It's not often I agree with the Scots however their version of the "Rule of 6" is going to make life so much easier for families by not counting under 12's. In a fortnight we have my mum's birthday, there are 7 of us however one is our daughter who has just turned 6, under the English rules that means one has to stay at home if we stick to those rules.
		
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Agree with that. Most of the things that I have cancelled have been because of the number of children that people have. That said (and I have not seen the briefing so not sure of the exact terms) I would not have thought that, for example, a big kids birthday party with dozens of kids and 6 adults would be ideal when looking at containing the spread. Just my thoughts but I would be happy with, for example, if you were meeting at a house, the host's kids did not count but those visiting did. that would allow flexibility and keep the numbers down.


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## DanFST (Sep 10, 2020)

Kind of annoying, we have been meeting up as a family during this. Unfortunately the 9 month old baby means someone has to miss out!


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## road2ruin (Sep 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agree with that. Most of the things that I have cancelled have been because of the number of children that people have. That said (and I have not seen the briefing so not sure of the exact terms) I would not have thought that, for example, a big kids birthday party with dozens of kids and 6 adults would be ideal when looking at containing the spread. Just my thoughts but I would be happy with, for example, if you were meeting at a house, the host's kids did not count but those visiting did. that would allow flexibility and keep the numbers down.
		
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Yeah, can see your point about the kids birthday party. I guess this will end up with the individual using their own instinct and potentially breaking the law in a very “specific and limited way”.


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## patricks148 (Sep 10, 2020)

puts paid to our Jolly is 2 weeks, 12 of us in a group, playing down in Fife and Aungus for a week and lashing it up at nigh, unless we split into two groups and stay away from each other


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			puts paid to our Jolly is 2 weeks, 12 of us in a group, playing down in Fife and Aungus for a week and lashing it up at nigh, unless we split into two groups and stay away from each other
		
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You are meant to be staying away from each other


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agree with that. Most of the things that I have cancelled have been because of the number of children that people have. That said (and I have not seen the briefing so not sure of the exact terms) I would not have thought that, for example, *a big kids birthday party with dozens of kids and 6 adults* *would be ideal when looking at containing the spread*. Just my thoughts but I would be happy with, for example, if you were meeting at a house, the host's kids did not count but those visiting did. that would allow flexibility and keep the numbers down.
		
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Or as it is otherwise know as, a normal day in every school.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			You think if 7 of us sit outside and have a barbie, whilst being 8-9 feet away from each other, is going to end up with one of us dying.

What kind of probability do you think of that happening is ?

Kind of thinking that is surreal and unbelievable and why these rules make no sense, even to a non risk taker like me. Its plain stupid thinking.
		
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The problem is that people dont tend to stick by the rules when at home, in public venues they are in sight of others and more likely to distance.


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## Ethan (Sep 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The current change makes a huge difference to me now as a breach becomes an arrestable offence. As such, any fine issued to me has to be reported by me to the solicitors regulation authority and that could end up in sanction, fine or the removal of my practicing certificate. When it was a rule they were not as concerned. As such, even if I was willing to sit in a group of 7 people round at a house, if a seventh person turns up, I have to leave. Spent yesterday cancelling all social events where I would not fully trust the host not to invite more than 6 people.
		
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The fact that the same rule applies indoors and outdoors is proof it is wrong, because the risk is very different indoors and outdoors as Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and even Matt Hancock have said repeatedly. If the rule of 6 is set about right for indoors, then it is excessive for outdoors. If it is set right for outdoors, it is not enough for indoors.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The fact that the same rule applies indoors and outdoors is proof it is wrong, because the risk is very different indoors and outdoors as Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and even Matt Hancock have said repeatedly. If the rule of 6 is set about right for indoors, then it is excessive for outdoors. If it is set right for outdoors, it is not enough for indoors.
		
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Its easy to understand with one number though. People have been complaining the rules are vague and difficult to understand.


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## Ethan (Sep 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its easy to understand with one number though. People have been complaining the rules are vague and difficult to understand.
		
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Easy to understand is a valid short term objective, but getting people to stick to it longer term is needed, and that is exactly what the behavioural science people in SAGE were concerned about with lockdown in the first place. Not so easy to explain the logic behind why you can have a group of 7 down the pub but not in your back garden or the park.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 10, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Given the targeted approach to local measures in places like Leicester, I am slightly bemused as to why the “Rule of Six” is nationwide given 75% of England has a low infection rate.
		
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Not sure that is so. In our County apparently, it is now higher than it has *ever *been!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Easy to understand is a valid short term objective, but getting people to stick to it longer term is needed, and that is exactly what the behavioural science people in SAGE were concerned about with lockdown in the first place. Not so easy to explain the logic behind why you can have a group of 7 down the pub but not in your back garden or the park.
		
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So groups of six in both makes sense.


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## DRW (Sep 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The problem is that people dont tend to stick by the rules when at home, in public venues they are in sight of others and more likely to distance.
		
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Bit of a random comment to what we where discussing. Whats that got to do with you said of 'It would really be rubbish if one of you killed a member of your family.' ? if I had a barbie outside. What is the chance of one of us dying if 7 of us got together and had a barbie, 1 in 5 million chance? or do you think it is higher or lower ?

The above comment isnt really true tho, you only have to look everywhere to see it isn't true. Plenty of people are not distancing in public,  logic would say they would but they aren't tbh.


The new rules/law will be with us until next year with winter coming. As someone who has complied completely, I am fully aware life can not go on like this, its not workable, even I have had enough now!

By law I believe we/other family members us cant touch the grandson, cant cuddle our own children who don't live with us, we can not cuddle our own parents, by law boyfriend/girlfriends cant touch each other, Gee our parents could be dead before they see us all together again for a family picture, life really is to short, comes to mind. Think about all of that kind of stuff, its hard to swallow for someone who is family based for any length of time.

We could do some of that safely outside, but nope not allowed as a group. Yeah fair to say its affecting us. But will keep on laughing about it, its almost like being in a film


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## chrisd (Sep 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So groups of six in both makes sense.
		
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Of course it does.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			Bit of a random comment to what we where discussing. Whats that got to do with you said of 'It would really be rubbish if one of you killed a member of your family.' ? if I had a barbie outside. What is the chance of one of us dying if 7 of us got together and had a barbie, 1 in 5 million chance? or do you think it is higher or lower ?

The above comment isnt really true tho, you only have to look everywhere to see it isn't true. Plenty of people are not distancing in public,  logic would say they would but they aren't tbh.


The new rules/law will be with us until next year with winter coming. As someone who has complied completely, I am fully aware life can not go on like this, its not workable, even I have had enough now!

By law I believe we/other family members us cant touch the grandson, cant cuddle our own children who don't live with us, we can not cuddle our own parents, by law boyfriend/girlfriends cant touch each other, Gee our parents could be dead before they see us all together again for a family picture, life really is to short, comes to mind. Think about all of that kind of stuff, its hard to swallow for someone who is family based for any length of time.

We could do some of that safely outside, but nope not allowed as a group. Yeah fair to say its affecting us. But will keep on laughing about it, its almost like being in a film 

Click to expand...

Have you seen the cuddle curtain idea? A bloke made a device using a shower curtain, full length, where you could put your arms through and cuddle someone without being in direct contact. Look it up online, there is a lovely video of him cuddling his gran.

Maybe something you could adapt?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not sure that is so. In our County apparently, it is now higher than it has *ever *been!
		
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Higher than it was during the major spike in March?


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## Billysboots (Sep 10, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not sure that is so. In our County apparently, it is now higher than it has *ever *been!
		
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The infection rate in 75% of the country is lower than the threshold applied when deciding if those returning from a specific country have to quarantine for 14 days.


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## Mudball (Sep 10, 2020)

Friend's 5 old year has been back at school and now is down with fever for the past couple of days.  Cant find a testing spot in London at the moment.


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## GB72 (Sep 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Easy to understand is a valid short term objective, but getting people to stick to it longer term is needed, and that is exactly what the behavioural science people in SAGE were concerned about with lockdown in the first place. Not so easy to explain the logic behind why you can have a group of 7 down the pub but not in your back garden or the park.
		
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My view is it is all down to enforcement. Have a big group in your house, get reported, see a police car arriving, everyone in the back garden. Now at least if there are more than 6 action can be taken


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## Ethan (Sep 10, 2020)

GB72 said:



			My view is it is all down to enforcement. Have a big group in your house, get reported, see a police car arriving, everyone in the back garden. Now at least if there are more than 6 action can be taken
		
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Enforcement needs to tackle the areas of highest risk. The virus doesn't know if it is in a pub or a private house. 7 people having a barbecue outside is next to no risk. A pub with people slowly impairing their judgement and good sense as the evening goes on is much more risky.


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## Mudball (Sep 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Heathrow?
		
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I can’t speak for him.. his view was they can’t find one ... they are waiting for a slot. 

HID had her test arranged in a day. Seamless and very good experience. But then she gets priority as she is NHS & key worker


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## chellie (Sep 10, 2020)

Well daughter couldn't get a drive through appointment for granddaughter so she had to get a postal one. Granddaughter has a cough but not a continous one but she wasn't allowed to go to school. That didn't arrive until Tuesday and no results yet. So she's had yet another week off school


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## Mudball (Sep 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I phoned at 0930 and my test at LHR was at 1100.
It wasn't busy, but maybe I got in straight away as a key worker, don't know.
		
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Interesting... again like my Mrs, you may have got it as a key worker. I will ask him to give it a shot. Tnx for heads up


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2020)

Eldest granddaughter went back to school this week. Currently self-isolating with a sore throat, fever and snotty nose, awaiting a test. Eldest daughter, 7 months pregnant, went into hospital today with a sore throat and fever. She's also suffering blinding headaches, pins and needles and having trouble forming sentences. Scheduled for an MRI roundabout now.

Worrying...


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Eldest granddaughter went back to school this week. Currently self-isolating with a sore throat, fever and snotty nose, awaiting a test. Eldest daughter, 7 months pregnant, went into hospital today with a sore throat and fever. She's also suffering blinding headaches, pins and needles and having trouble forming sentences. Scheduled for an MRI roundabout now.

Worrying...
		
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Hope it works out well


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## chrisd (Sep 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Eldest granddaughter went back to school this week. Currently self-isolating with a sore throat, fever and snotty nose, awaiting a test. Eldest daughter, 7 months pregnant, went into hospital today with a sore throat and fever. She's also suffering blinding headaches, pins and needles and having trouble forming sentences. Scheduled for an MRI roundabout now.

Worrying...
		
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I hope that everything is ok for them both Brian, keeping fingers crossed 🤞🤞


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Higher than it was during the major spike in March?
		
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So I understand. We are on the south coast, having had the summer invasion😀


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 10, 2020)

It seems as though there are tests available if you are willing to pay for them or have someone that will pay for you to take one. I'm going back offshore again next week and have been told that I have to be at a hotel on Tuesday morning to get tested. I'll then be isolating in the hotel until the result arrives, probably on Wednesday, before travelling to the vessel on Thursday, assuming the result is negative. 

I've got mixed feelings about this. It seems wrong that I can get tested just because the company I'll be working for can afford to pay for the test while others, who might be more worthy, are struggling to get a test. The flip side of that is that according to current guidelines I am classed as a key worker as I'll be working on a site survey for an offshore wind farm and energy supply is included in the list of key workers, even if the energy produced won't be seen for several years.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 10, 2020)

DRW said:



			Bit of a random comment to what we where discussing. Whats that got to do with you said of 'It would really be rubbish if one of you killed a member of your family.' ? if I had a barbie outside. What is the chance of one of us dying if 7 of us got together and had a barbie, 1 in 5 million chance? or do you think it is higher or lower ?

The above comment isnt really true tho, you only have to look everywhere to see it isn't true. Plenty of people are not distancing in public,  logic would say they would but they aren't tbh.


The new rules/law will be with us until next year with winter coming. As someone who has complied completely, I am fully aware life can not go on like this, its not workable, even I have had enough now!

By law I believe we/other family members us cant touch the grandson, cant cuddle our own children who don't live with us, we can not cuddle our own parents, by law boyfriend/girlfriends cant touch each other, Gee our parents could be dead before they see us all together again for a family picture, life really is to short, comes to mind. Think about all of that kind of stuff, its hard to swallow for someone who is family based for any length of time.

We could do some of that safely outside, but nope not allowed as a group. Yeah fair to say its affecting us. But will keep on laughing about it, its almost like being in a film 

Click to expand...

But where do you draw a line, seven, ten, twenty?  Its easy to complain your personal circumstance would not create a problem but someone has to take responsibility and set a limit, that limit happens to be six.  Crap happens and its happening right now, most of us are in circumstances that create emotional hardship but the alternative to working together is really frightening.


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## chellie (Sep 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Eldest granddaughter went back to school this week. Currently self-isolating with a sore throat, fever and snotty nose, awaiting a test. Eldest daughter, 7 months pregnant, went into hospital today with a sore throat and fever. She's also suffering blinding headaches, pins and needles and having trouble forming sentences. Scheduled for an MRI roundabout now.

Worrying...
		
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Hope all is ok Brian.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2020)

The enforcement of wearing masks whilst entering, leaving and moving around in pubs and cafe's is a good move.
Not sure if that is a Scotland only thing.


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## Ethan (Sep 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Eldest granddaughter went back to school this week. Currently self-isolating with a sore throat, fever and snotty nose, awaiting a test. Eldest daughter, 7 months pregnant, went into hospital today with a sore throat and fever. She's also suffering blinding headaches, pins and needles and having trouble forming sentences. Scheduled for an MRI roundabout now.

Worrying...
		
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I hope they are both OK. Always a worrying time in late pregnancy even without all the Covid stuff around as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But where do you draw a line, seven, ten, twenty?  Its easy to complain your personal circumstance would not create a problem but someone has to take responsibility and set a limit, that limit happens to be six.  Crap happens and its happening right now, most of us are in circumstances that create emotional hardship but the alternative to working together is really frightening.
		
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Indeed...and the constraints that we have been asked to adhere to will be based on population statistical risk and probability and not single instance risk and probability.  The behaviour of any single group of 6 or 7 determines the risk of infection within that group and beyond in the wider community but it will not be the same as the risk of all groups in that same community and hence the risk to that wider community.  And it is risk of infection spread in the wider community that is critical.


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## DRW (Sep 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed...and the constraints that we have been asked to adhere to will be based on population statistical risk and probability and not single instance risk and probability.  The behaviour of any single group of 6 or 7 determines the risk of infection within that group and beyond in the wider community but it will not be the same as the risk of all groups in that same community and hence the risk to that wider community.  And it is risk of infection spread in the wider community that is critical.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			But where do you draw a line, seven, ten, twenty?  Its easy to complain your personal circumstance would not create a problem but someone has to take responsibility and set a limit, that limit happens to be six.  Crap happens and its happening right now, most of us are in circumstances that create emotional hardship but the alternative to working together is really frightening.
		
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What Twaddle

Seriously the risk is massively different if you are inside to outside and to treat them the same is mental. Have you not learnt or listened or read nothing during this whole pandemic.

You both seem to have missed my moan and how it is affecting me and the most important factor and have gone off at a tangent. As for SR saying one of us would die at a BBQ, when being outside, socially distancing, cooking separately and so on, please kept some realisation to your posts. rather than just trying to control people by scaremongering.

Anyway I am going off at a tangent to my original moan and how this is affecting me and probably even going political at the moment, as the science for sure doesn't support it, groups sizes being the same for inside and outside is stupid and sending the wrong messages. We are far far safer outside, simple as that and we should be promoting that first and foremost.

Have fun, think I have had my moan. Mood hoover


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## Ethan (Sep 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			What Twaddle

Seriously the risk is massively different if you are inside to outside and to treat them the same is mental. Have you not learnt or listened or read nothing during this whole pandemic.

You both seem to have missed my moan and how it is affecting me and the most important factor and have gone off at a tangent. As for SR saying one of us would die at a BBQ, when being outside, socially distancing, cooking separately and so on, please kept some realisation to your posts. rather than just trying to control people by scaremongering.
		
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I agree. Inside and outside present very different risk levels. Whitty and Vallance said this repeatedly at Number 10 briefings. Simplicity is fine but it needs to have at least a tenuous grasp on reality. Failing to distinguish between people meeting at home vs the pub also undermines the simplicity somewhat. The virus doesn't know if it is in a pub or a private home. The risk of attending a BBQ outside while maintaining social distancing is very low unless the other person is deliberately coughing in your face.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			What Twaddle

Seriously the risk is massively different if you are inside to outside and to treat them the same is mental. Have you not learnt or listened or read nothing during this whole pandemic.

You both seem to have missed my moan and how it is affecting me and the most important factor and have gone off at a tangent. As for SR saying one of us would die at a BBQ, when being outside, socially distancing, cooking separately and so on, please kept some realisation to your posts. rather than just trying to control people by scaremongering.

Anyway I am going off at a tangent to my original moan and how this is affecting me and probably even going political at the moment, as the science for sure doesn't support it, groups sizes being the same for inside and outside is stupid and sending the wrong messages. We are far far safer outside, simple as that and we should be promoting that first and foremost.

Have fun, think I have had my moan. Mood hoover

Click to expand...

I was quite clear that I was talking about multiple group risk to population compared with single group risk to population. I was not commenting on right or wrongs of numbers in a group or indoors vs outdoors.


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## Mudball (Sep 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Eldest granddaughter went back to school this week. Currently self-isolating with a sore throat, fever and snotty nose, awaiting a test. Eldest daughter, 7 months pregnant, went into hospital today with a sore throat and fever. She's also suffering blinding headaches, pins and needles and having trouble forming sentences. Scheduled for an MRI roundabout now.

Worrying...
		
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hope it works out.. good luck


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## SocketRocket (Sep 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			What Twaddle

Seriously the risk is massively different if you are inside to outside and to treat them the same is mental. Have you not learnt or listened or read nothing during this whole pandemic.

You both seem to have missed my moan and how it is affecting me and the most important factor and have gone off at a tangent. As for SR saying one of us would die at a BBQ, when being outside, socially distancing, cooking separately and so on, please kept some realisation to your posts. rather than just trying to control people by scaremongering.

Anyway I am going off at a tangent to my original moan and how this is affecting me and probably even going political at the moment, as the science for sure doesn't support it, groups sizes being the same for inside and outside is stupid and sending the wrong messages. We are far far safer outside, simple as that and we should be promoting that first and foremost.

Have fun, think I have had my moan. Mood hoover

Click to expand...

I dont think you want to understand whats being said and must keep bringing everything down to your garden barbicue.   People keep complaining the rules are difficult to understand so making a rule of six should ensure its easy enough for anyone, also I explained that people tend to be more lax with social distancing in their homes verses in public, you may well stick to the rules but its not all about you


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## DRW (Sep 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I dont think you want to understand whats being said and must keep bringing everything down to your garden barbicue.   People keep complaining the rules are difficult to understand so making a rule of six should ensure its easy enough for anyone, also I explained that people tend to be more lax with social distancing in their homes verses in public, you may well stick to the rules but its not all about you
		
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Twaddle again. Outside is much lower risk than inside, that can be said 100% as true and the science supports it.

Of course I was talking about how it affects me, as this thread is about that, whoever would have thought that from the thread title - DOH!   then you got onto a person dying from a Barbie at home outside, then the story went on, I only replied to your posts.

However thinking about it whatever, you are right, as I'm done. Have a good day, the thread is yours and how it has affected you


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## SocketRocket (Sep 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			Twaddle again. Outside is much lower risk than inside, that can be said 100% as true and the science supports it.

Of course I was talking about how it affects me, as this thread is about that, whoever would have thought that from the thread title - DOH!   then you got onto a person dying from a Barbie at home outside, then the story went on, I only replied to your posts.

However thinking about it whatever, you are right, as I'm done. Have a good day, the thread is yours and how it has affected you 

Click to expand...

Grow up

Outside isnt safer if people dont social distance and there is more chance of them not distancing in their own homes and gardens.  You seem to have a problem understanding things, I said you may be responsible but the rule is for everyone and we have seen very clearly many people are not acting responsibly.  I didnt suggest someone would die at a barbicue, thats a ridiculous extrapolation of what I suggested, my point was that if people dont start acting more responsible and stop getting together in large social groups then more people will die.   Hope thats clear enough.


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## robinthehood (Sep 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Grow up
		
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😂😂😂😂😂😂


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## GB72 (Sep 11, 2020)

DRW said:



			Twaddle again. Outside is much lower risk than inside, that can be said 100% as true and the science supports it.

Of course I was talking about how it affects me, as this thread is about that, whoever would have thought that from the thread title - DOH!   then you got onto a person dying from a Barbie at home outside, then the story went on, I only replied to your posts.

However thinking about it whatever, you are right, as I'm done. Have a good day, the thread is yours and how it has affected you 

Click to expand...

I suppose that the counter argument is that much of the current increase in infection is being attributed to meeting at people's houses. If you allow one size of group outside and one in then you have a problem with enforcement. a dozen people say inside, police turn up 'oh no officer, we are all in the garden' and action cannot be taken. By making it simple and applicable across the board then you can take easy action in splitting up groups and issuing fines. Clearly the change is being made as people have not been following the rules at home. 

For some people the rules are actually more relaxed. Now I can meet up with 2 other couples for a drink that I could not do before as we would have been more than 2 households. I often wonder how many who were meeting outside in larger groups were following the 2 household rule. Need some pretty big households to comply at some of the 20 plus people barbeques I have seen. 

The reason pubs are OK is that there is someone responsible for monitoring groups and behaviour and it is easier to send officials in to check on compliance. There is also a larger stake with licences on the line.


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## Ethan (Sep 11, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The reason pubs are OK is that there is someone responsible for monitoring groups and behaviour and it is easier to send officials in to check on compliance. There is also a larger stake with licences on the line.
		
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That's not the reason pubs are allowed. The real reason is now a breach of recent forum rules.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I agree. Inside and outside present very different risk levels. Whitty and Vallance said this repeatedly at Number 10 briefings. Simplicity is fine but it needs to have at least a tenuous grasp on reality. Failing to distinguish between people meeting at home vs the pub also undermines the simplicity somewhat. The virus doesn't know if it is in a pub or a private home. The risk of attending a BBQ outside while *maintaining social distancing *is very low unless the other person is deliberately coughing in your face.
		
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Exactly. While maintaining SD.  But it is clear from what I see that unless the group size is limited the easier it is to not SD.
At my club I see them ,outside, supposedly in small groups, start moving together and no S D  at all before very long. 
If the group is much larger than 6 or so,then it seems not long before SD goes out the window.
And if I was in the middle of those I regularly see, I should think my chances of breathing what they are exhaling would be very high.
Telling me I am outside so I'm all right, would not seem very comforting.
It may be true that my chances are better being outside than inside, but that isn't the point. It's whether my chances have got worse by lack of SD because the group is too big , wherever it is.
I think 6   inside or outside, is a reasonable attempt to fight the spread of this virus.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 12, 2020)

Looks like SW Scotland are clearing out the hospitals in preparation for a second wave.
3 weeks after the schools went back so perhaps blended learning is on the way.


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## Hobbit (Sep 12, 2020)

My favourite niece went down with it on Tuesday, and had a respiratory arrest on Thursday. 38 years old and as fit as... imagine her mother being the person giving CPR!!

Her mother has a serious, ongoing, health condition and had to give CPR to someone suffering from Covid. 

"Yeah but us youngsters will be fine..." Maybe you will, and maybe you won't but what about your parents that you might give it to?


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 12, 2020)

You can’t pin it on one generation. It’s anybody who’s not staying at home, not washing their hands frequently, maintaining distance from even your family, not wearing a mask at home even as most of the transmission is within the home. 
The official rules and guidelines are loose, full of gaps and prevent some deaths - not all. 
 Everybody knows what needs to be done but people cling on to some norm and neediness of social interaction rather than lock themselves away. This rule of six shouldn’t even exist, it should be nobody at all. 
Those that blame a generation for living a little bit more than some because they can’t, won’t, or daren’t is Hypocritical.
 Nobody is doing all they can to make the virus go away, instead just living under the illusion they are by following arbitrary rules, guidelines and laws blissfully ignorant. 

Almost everyone’s to blame. That extra shop you did, killed a granny. 
That friend you visited, yeah that killed a granny, that restaurant you didn’t need to go to and the table you brushed passed and breathed on. Killed a granny. 

If you aren’t staying at home and doing all you can then your spreading it.


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2020)

Looks like we are going to run out of granny's,  best bunker up.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			My favourite niece went down with it on Tuesday, and had a respiratory arrest on Thursday. 38 years old and as fit as... imagine her mother being the person giving CPR!!

Her mother has a serious, ongoing, health condition and had to give CPR to someone suffering from Covid.

"Yeah but us youngsters will be fine..." Maybe you will, and maybe you won't but what about your parents that you might give it to?
		
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Crikey I hope they're both ok. I wonder if more stories about the young and fit falling very ill due to Covid would have an impact. It's playing Russian Roulette and perhaps more need to understand that.


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## Billysboots (Sep 12, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			You can’t pin it on one generation. It’s anybody who’s not staying at home, not washing their hands frequently, maintaining distance from even your family, not wearing a mask at home even as most of the transmission is within the home.
The official rules and guidelines are loose, full of gaps and prevent some deaths - not all.
Everybody knows what needs to be done but people cling on to some norm and neediness of social interaction rather than lock themselves away. This rule of six shouldn’t even exist, it should be nobody at all.
Those that blame a generation for living a little bit more than some because they can’t, won’t, or daren’t is Hypocritical.
Nobody is doing all they can to make the virus go away, instead just living under the illusion they are by following arbitrary rules, guidelines and laws blissfully ignorant.

Almost everyone’s to blame. That extra shop you did, killed a granny.
That friend you visited, yeah that killed a granny, that restaurant you didn’t need to go to and the table you brushed passed and breathed on. Killed a granny.

If you aren’t staying at home and doing all you can then your spreading it.
		
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All a little melodramatic, unless of course this is a wind up. You surely can’t expect everyone to stay at home for ever? And wear a mask at home? Really?

And, with respect, I resent being told “that extra shop you did killed a granny.” That’s cobblers. If every one of us who has been shopping during the last six months had “killed a granny” as a result, I rather think the death toll would be considerably higher than it is.

I disagree that this current situation can’t be pinned on a generation to some degree. Yes, there are members of all generations doing both the right and wrong thing. But, in the main, the younger generation appear not to really take any of this seriously at all. Just pop into any pub of an evening, and you’ll see large groups of under-30’s carrying on like nothing has changed.

Apologies if that upsets our younger forumers, but that is my experience. I do, of course, accept that others may well have contrary experiences but I speak as I find.


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## robinthehood (Sep 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Crikey I hope they're both ok. I wonder if more stories about the young and fit falling very ill due to Covid would have an impact. It's playing Russian Roulette and perhaps more need to understand that.
		
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While 38 isn't old, it's also not young in relation to the lowest risk group. Statically the 20 somethings are still pretty low risk of serious illness. Although that doesn't stop them passing it on to others. Tbf there as many older people to who don't seem to care either.


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## road2ruin (Sep 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I wonder if more stories about the young and fit falling very ill due to Covid would have an impact. It's playing Russian Roulette and perhaps more need to understand that.
		
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Didn’t the newspapers do a load of that at the beginning? Every time I looked at a paper a 6/15/30yr old with no (known) underlying health condition had died, it was front page news. 

The fact is that for the under 30’s the chances of dying are minuscule and if I’m honest the 23yr old me would have been in the pub with mates and would have been happy with the risk involved. How anyone can have a go at that age group when they’ve been actively encouraged to get to pubs, bars and eatery’s is beyond me.


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## Billysboots (Sep 12, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Didn’t the newspapers do a load of that at the beginning? Every time I looked at a paper a 6/15/30yr old with no (known) underlying health condition had died, it was front page news.

The fact is that for the under 30’s the chances of dying are minuscule and if I’m honest the 23yr old me would have been in the pub with mates and would have been happy with the risk involved. *How anyone can have a go at that age group when they’ve been actively encouraged to get to pubs, bars and eatery’s is beyond me.*

Click to expand...

Yes, they’ve been encouraged to go to pubs. But I don’t recall reading anywhere that they were told social distancing and being sensible no longer applied.

Again I can only cite my own experience, but I saw a group of half a dozen men, all aged under 30, in our local last night. Hugging when they met, high fiving, shaking hands and then sitting cheek by jowl, no social distancing at all. Not a care in the world. The truly scary think is that I know all six are teachers at my daughter’s college, and I expected at least some common sense. 

I haven’t seen too many middle aged or older generation acting in that way.


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## road2ruin (Sep 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I haven’t seen too many middle aged or older generation acting in that way.
		
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I think each generation has their own issues. I would agree that the younger lot have issues with SD especially after a few drinks however in my experience it’s the older lot who are more guilty of refusing to wear masks as they don’t believe in it or they don’t like being told what to do. Most of the younger lot (again in my experience) all seem to be toeing the line with regards masks.


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## Ethan (Sep 12, 2020)

Covid has a mortality rate at every age. It is certainly low in younger people, but not zero, and there are also a lot of downstream complications possible. Covis appears to have a generalised inflammatory effect in some people and this can cause heart, kidney, liver and vascular effects. Reports of fit college age athletes developing myocarditis have occurred in the US, and the Kawasaki-like inflammatory syndrome which can be fatal has been seen in younger kids worldwide.


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## Imurg (Sep 12, 2020)

I've been seeing lots of groups of school and college kids hanging around, clumped together, sharing drinks and crisps with barely a few inches between them and hardly a mask in sight.
I get the feeling they've decided they're immune and so dont have to follow guidelines outside school or college...which are pretty thorough from what some of my pupils have told me.
On the plus side for the kids I've not had one turn up for a lesson without a mask...although that could be because I've trained them well


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## fundy (Sep 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I've been seeing lots of groups of school and college kids hanging around, clumped together, sharing drinks and crisps with barely a few inches between them and hardly a mask in sight.
I get the feeling they've decided they're immune and so dont have to follow guidelines outside school or college...which are pretty thorough from what some of my pupils have told me.
On the plus side for the kids I've not had one turn up for a lesson without a mask...although that could be because I've trained them well

Click to expand...


Waiting outside the post office yesterday for Mrs Fundy two young lads turn up on bikes. One pulls his mask out puts it on and goes in. Few minutes later he comes out, takes off the mask and passes it to his mate who then puts it on and goes in!!!!


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## pendodave (Sep 12, 2020)

Researchers looking at data from 260 hospitals in england and wales found that there were 6 deaths of minors. All of them had profound health issues.
Source : prof calem semple, univ of liverpool.
Dr olivia swann, the study's co author said that the ports findings were "extremely reassuring".
Facts, not gossip
** edit, not intended as a reference to hobbit's sad news, but to give some context as to why young people are genuinely not in any, even slight, risk.


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## Imurg (Sep 12, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Researchers looking at data from 260 hospitals in england and wales found that there were 6 deaths of minors. All of them had profound health issues.
Source : prof calem semple, univ of liverpool.
Dr olivia swann, the study's co author said that the ports findings were "extremely reassuring".
Facts, not gossip
		
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But its not just about deaths of youngsters 
As Ethan says, this bug can cause serious complications as well as killing people 
And there's the ever present risk of passing it on to others who, in turn, pass it on to someone else.


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## road2ruin (Sep 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			But its not just about deaths of youngsters
As Ethan says, this bug can cause serious complications as well as killing people
And there's the ever present risk of passing it on to others who, in turn, pass it on to someone else.
		
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It’s about the level of risk you’re willing to take for me. If you aren’t fussed and happy to take the chances with regards ‘long Covid’ then go for it. If you are in a family where your youngster is out on the lash then just ensure they’re keeping their distance and not seeing the elderly. I fail to see what else can be done short of going on lockdown for god knows how long.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I've been seeing lots of groups of school and college kids hanging around, clumped together, sharing drinks and crisps with barely a few inches between them and hardly a mask in sight.
I get the feeling they've decided they're immune and so dont have to follow guidelines outside school or college...which are pretty thorough from what some of my pupils have told me.
On the plus side for the kids I've not had one turn up for a lesson without a mask...although that could be because I've trained them well

Click to expand...


Well at school there in bubbles (at some schools) year group bubbles so prob will be like if we can go school why can't we hang out?

I mean my work colleagues we are very social .. we can work 10 of us but can't the same 10 go for a drink after work


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			It’s about the level of risk you’re willing to take for me. If you aren’t fussed and happy to take the chances with regards ‘long Covid’ then go for it. If you are in a family where your youngster is out on the lash then just ensure they’re keeping their distance and not seeing the elderly. I fail to see what else can be done short of going on lockdown for god knows how long.
		
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One persons “go for it” attitude can and will effect others who have not intention of going for it.


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## road2ruin (Sep 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			One persons “go for it” attitude can and will effect others who have not intention of going for it.
		
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Assuming social distancing, mask wearing etc takes place the latter just avoid the former?


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			All a little melodramatic, unless of course this is a wind up. You surely can’t expect everyone to stay at home for ever? And wear a mask at home? Really?

And, with respect, I resent being told “that extra shop you did killed a granny.” That’s cobblers. If every one of us who has been shopping during the last six months had “killed a granny” as a result, I rather think the death toll would be considerably higher than it is.

I disagree that this current situation can’t be pinned on a generation to some degree. Yes, there are members of all generations doing both the right and wrong thing. But, in the main, the younger generation appear not to really take any of this seriously at all. Just pop into any pub of an evening, and you’ll see large groups of under-30’s carrying on like nothing has changed.

Apologies if that upsets our younger forumers, but that is my experience. I do, of course, accept that others may well have contrary experiences but I speak as I find.
		
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It’s not a wind up no, I know what I need to do in a pandemic but I choose not to, like everybody else here toeing the line on rules. 
I go in pubs and they aren’t just filled with 18-30’s. Go in the daytime and they’re full with the early retirees to 80 year olds. 

I don’t expect you to wear a mask at home no, but you will wear one to protect strangers in a shop but not home with your family? Can you be 100% sure you don’t take anything extra home? 

“Killing a granny” very dramatic I agree but you must understand that every interaction you have in a environment where there is people there is a possible transmission and could lead to a death. Unnecessary trips and shopping still apply as they did in March and April, the virus hasn’t gone away but it’s okay to go out because Boris said so. 

I don’t give two hoots, I go out, I live my life as much as possible knowing there’s a trade off between saving jobs and the economy and spreading the virus But i know damn well you shouldn’t be out in a “pandemic”.


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## Billysboots (Sep 12, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			It’s not a wind up no, I know what I need to do in a pandemic but I choose not to, like everybody else here toeing the line on rules.
I go in pubs and they aren’t just filled with 18-30’s. Go in the daytime and they’re full with the early retirees to 80 year olds.

I don’t expect you to wear a mask at home no, but you will wear one to protect strangers in a shop but not home with your family? Can you be 100% sure you don’t take anything extra home?

“Killing a granny” very dramatic I agree but you must understand that every interaction you have in a environment where there is people there is a possible transmission and could lead to a death. Unnecessary trips and shopping still apply as they did in March and April, the virus hasn’t gone away but it’s okay to go out because Boris said so. 

I don’t give two hoots, I go out, I live my life as much as possible knowing there’s a trade off between saving jobs and the economy and spreading the virus But i know damn well you shouldn’t be out in a “pandemic”.
		
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I’m sure I’m not alone in struggling to understand your stance. Having read and then re-read your last two posts I’m afraid the messages are really rather mixed.


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## Mudball (Sep 12, 2020)

Never a big fan of Green or Mike Ashley.. but Green does push the boundaries.  Can he claim that what he did broke the law in ‘limited and specific way’. ??

https://apple.news/AxT8vPERNTECVuqnSk8JQ7w


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 12, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m sure I’m not alone in struggling to understand your stance. Having read and then re-read your last two posts I’m afraid the messages are really rather mixed.
		
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I don’t have a stance, just found it amusing that people pass the blame   mostly on one demographic when the same people aren’t doing all they can to stop the spread themselves. 
I’ve found it’s not about who’s spreading it but more about trying to shame who’s not following the new normal.


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## IainP (Sep 12, 2020)

Not an "affect me" thing directly but the stats thread has fallen away.
Globally yesterday there was a new high over 310 thousand cases reported in a day.
Know increased testing is part of the story, but still sobering IMO.
Do wonder what it'll look like in a year's time 😕


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 12, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			While 38 isn't old, it's also not young in relation to the lowest risk group. Statically the 20 somethings are still pretty low risk of serious illness. Although that doesn't stop them passing it on to others. Tbf there as many older people to who don't seem to care either.
		
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That last sentence, No that's not true. That's being "politically correct". 

There is a large, major , proportion of youngsters who are behaving as though Covid doesn't exist because they believe, mostly rightly, that it won't badly affect them. That's as far as they think, or take their social responsibility. 
They choose to ignore or not care that their behaviour is dangerous to elderly and/or vulnerable.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 12, 2020)

Havering on the verge of a local lockdown 

Very worrying 

Covid walk in centre been opened 2 miles up road .. for next 6 months


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## robinthehood (Sep 13, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That last sentence, No that's not true. That's being "politically correct".

There is a large, major , proportion of youngsters who are behaving as though Covid doesn't exist because they believe, mostly rightly, that it won't badly affect them. That's as far as they think, or take their social responsibility.
They choose to ignore or not care that their behaviour is dangerous to elderly and/or vulnerable.
		
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It's as true as anything you're saying.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 13, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That last sentence, No that's not true. That's being "politically correct".

*There is a large, major , proportion of youngsters who are behaving as though Covid doesn't exist because they believe, mostly rightly, that it won't badly affect them*. *That's as far as they think, or take their social responsibility*.
They choose to ignore or not care that their behaviour is dangerous to elderly and/or vulnerable.
		
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Not sure what age group you are referring to but for a lot of youngsters, may be because they are being sent to school with the direct inference that it does not affect them, they feel this way.


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## Beezerk (Sep 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Havering on the verge of a local lockdown

Very worrying
		
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Ditto, big spikes in the north east apparently. Our Saturday football league has been postponed for at least a couple of weeks, not happy 🙈


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## Billysboots (Sep 13, 2020)

I’m sure the link has been posted before, but there is loads of useful information here, including a map which provides detail of worst hit areas. The northwest is still taking a pasting.

https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/


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## pauljames87 (Sep 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m sure the link has been posted before, but there is loads of useful information here, including a map which provides detail of worst hit areas. The northwest is still taking a pasting.

https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/

Click to expand...

Without making this political.. more the press really.. I'd love to see the two bottom numbers be the real report .. yes don't play down deaths but look how many people recovered .. and how many in hospital compared to cases


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## Ethan (Sep 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Without making this political.. more the press really.. I'd love to see the two bottom numbers be the real report .. yes don't play down deaths but look how many people recovered .. and how many in hospital compared to cases
		
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There is no proper data on recovered patients, this is an estimated number based on the assumption that if you are still alive after 4 weeks, you are recovered. That is an unsafe assumption, so I would place little value on it. Plenty of people who had community Covid (i.e. were not even admitted to hospital) still have troublesome symptoms more than 4 weeks after.


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## Billysboots (Sep 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is no proper data on recovered patients, this is an estimated number based on the assumption that if you are still alive after 4 weeks, you are recovered. That is an unsafe assumption, so I would place little value on it. Plenty of people who had community Covid (i.e. were not even admitted to hospital) still have troublesome symptoms more than 4 weeks after.
		
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I had a very minor brush with it back in March and still suffer with some symptoms which I attribute to coronavirus, as routine bloods appear perfectly normal.

The three big issues for me are still mild headaches along with a vague feeling of disorientation (both of which were very prevalent in March), and extreme tiredness. I can imagine those who suffered more pronounced virus symptoms may well have proportionately more pronounced lingering issues now.

Returning to those figures, hospitalisations have crept up by about 150 in the last week or so, although ICU numbers appear to be constant. Given the apparent increase in positive tests, neither of those would appear cause for concern. Yet.


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## Ethan (Sep 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I had a very minor brush with it back in March and still suffer with some symptoms which I attribute to coronavirus, as routine bloods appear perfectly normal.

The three big issues for me are still mild headaches along with a vague feeling of disorientation (both of which were very prevalent in March), and extreme tiredness. I can imagine those who suffered more pronounced virus symptoms may well have proportionately more pronounced lingering issues now.

Returning to those figures, hospitalisations have crept up by about 150 in the last week or so, although ICU numbers appear to be constant. Given the apparent increase in positive tests, neither of those would appear cause for concern. Yet.
		
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The long Covid symptoms don't necessarily correlate with the initial severity. Some of the downstream effects are connected to the immunological response at around day 7 which drives the inflammatory phase of the condition in those who get it. These at least partially explain the greater mortality in men, whose immunology tends to be a bit different from women. Fatigue is common and is a well recognised feature of a number of post-viral syndromes.


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## road2ruin (Sep 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			As cases increase and local restrictions are becoming more and more frequent/prevalent, it does seem like we're heading back to lockdown. Indeed, without making a political point, we're now back at level 4 in the government's covid levels (R number over 1) which suggest we should be back in lockdown already....  Not sure what else could change now to arrest and reverse the trend.

So frustrating that we can't seem to balance easing restrictions while keeping infections under control.
		
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It’ll be more frequent local lockdowns I’d imagine however there won’t be another national one, it’d be the end for the economy and I can’t see the public going through another. Essentially we have to learn to live with it, it’s up to the individual to make the decision based on their own personal circumstances.


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## IainP (Sep 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			As cases increase and local restrictions are becoming more and more frequent/prevalent, it does seem like we're heading back to lockdown. Indeed, without making a political point, we're now back at level 4 in the government's covid levels (R number over 1) which suggest we should be back in lockdown already....  Not sure what else could change now to arrest and reverse the trend.

So frustrating that we can't seem to balance easing restrictions while keeping infections under control.
		
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Agree.
Possibly also frustrating that we're not able to learn from our near neighbours, but also to acknowledge we aren't alone with this challenge.


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## Mudball (Sep 13, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			It’ll be more frequent local lockdowns I’d imagine however there won’t be another national one, it’d be the end for the economy and I can’t see the public going through another. Essentially we have to learn to live with it, it’s up to the individual to make the decision based on their own personal circumstances.
		
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Agree... a national lockdown will be political suicide which BoJo won’t allow. However with a local lockdown almost everywhere, we will be pretty much in national lockdown.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Agree... a national lockdown will be political suicide which BoJo won’t allow. However with a local lockdown almost everywhere, we will be pretty much in national lockdown.
		
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I'm not sure there is a solution where people go back to work and return to city centres, schools, restaurants pubs are open and people are encouraged to visit them, the elderly and vulnerable are well protected and the infection rate does not rise.  And the priority will swing between the economy and essentially deaths, depending on where we are. 

To me the track and trace seems to be the best way to mitigate and control is as much as you can until we find the vaccine (betting without the anti-vaxers and other assorted conspiracy nut jobs as that's another level of complexity we don't need) , which I suppose has always been the case.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I had a very minor brush with it back in March and still suffer with some symptoms which I attribute to coronavirus, as routine bloods appear perfectly normal.

The three big issues for me are still mild headaches along with a vague feeling of disorientation (both of which were very prevalent in March), and extreme tiredness. I can imagine those who suffered more pronounced virus symptoms may well have proportionately more pronounced lingering issues now.

Returning to those figures, hospitalisations have crept up by about 150 in the last week or so, although ICU numbers appear to be constant. Given the apparent increase in positive tests, neither of those would appear cause for concern. Yet.
		
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Sounds very like what I was / am feeling .
Did you get a test.?


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## pauljames87 (Sep 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			As cases increase and local restrictions are becoming more and more frequent/prevalent, it does seem like we're heading back to lockdown. Indeed, without making a political point, we're now back at level 4 in the government's covid levels (R number over 1) which suggest we should be back in lockdown already....  Not sure what else could change now to arrest and reverse the trend.

So frustrating that we can't seem to balance easing restrictions while keeping infections under control.
		
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Without going policitcal , they will bring in measures like the rule of 6 and then local lock downs in areas where out breaks are

The country won't do another national lock down, it A won't be as well respected B will ruin the economy further 

Local lockdowns seem the way forward


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## Billysboots (Sep 13, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Sounds very like what I was / am feeling .
Did you get a test.?
		
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I picked it up some weeks later via an antibody test, both the kit and blood test coming back positive for antibodies.

At the time I just felt out of sorts. Off my food, disorientation, fluctuating temperature (although never desperately high - it peaked around 38.5 degrees), and just not quite right. Couldn’t really pinpoint what was wrong, but when I got the chance to take part in an antibody test via work I was at the front of the queue. I just had a sneaky feeling I’d had the virus.

I stress that my assumption is that the symptoms I had were the virus. If not, I’ve been totally asymptomatic because I’ve not been ill otherwise for months.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 13, 2020)

Is there a general exemption from wearing masks in petrol station shops that I've missed?


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## Captainron (Sep 13, 2020)

I’m getting bored of corona virus now.


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## Mudball (Sep 13, 2020)

Unfortunately now I know two kids who have developed fever et al .. one week into school now. The kids will be fine (I hope) but they will carry it home. I am a big supporter of kids in school but maybe it is too early


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 13, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I picked it up some weeks later via an antibody test, both the kit and blood test coming back positive for antibodies.

At the time I just felt out of sorts. Off my food, disorientation, fluctuating temperature (although never desperately high - it peaked around 38.5 degrees), and just not quite right. Couldn’t really pinpoint what was wrong, but when I got the chance to take part in an antibody test via work I was at the front of the queue. I just had a sneaky feeling I’d had the virus.

I stress that my assumption is that the symptoms I had were the virus. If not, I’ve been totally asymptomatic because I’ve not been ill otherwise for months.
		
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Yes you know you are I’ll when off your food.
Sounds just like my symptoms but without the temperature, just can’t put your finger on it.
Mine was well before the main outbreak as well , early .April 
Ok now though , touch wood.


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## road2ruin (Sep 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Unfortunately now I know two kids who have developed fever et al .. one week into school now. The kids will be fine (I hope) but they will carry it home. I am a big supporter of kids in school but maybe it is too early
		
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If you had school age kids you’d know it wasn’t too early. I’m not saying that from an economic point of view but from a mental health side of things. Our daughter was 5 when the lockdown started and her behaviour and general demeanour changed markedly towards the end of May having been at home for 6 weeks. We were lucky that she went back in mid June as she was like a different person being able to spend time in school and with friends again. Plus from an educational standpoint there’d be some children that would never recover from another period of home schooling.


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## Kellfire (Sep 13, 2020)

Check out Peter Ebdon’s twitter account. He’s a conspiracy theory nutjob!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2020)

On the governments website I tried and failed to find what the current rule is in respect of a birthday party gathering in a private garden.  I could easy find what it will be from tomorrow - but couldn’t find what it is today. And then for however many individuals from however many households In the garden - what the current limits are for all or some having to go indoors if the weather turns.   Could have posted this as a random irritation.  Don’t need a link just the numbers for today. But a link would be handy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2020)

Captainron said:



			I’m getting bored of corona virus now.
		
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Unfortunate the coronavirus doesn’t seem to be getting bored of infecting us...and it doesn’t get tired and doesn’t sleep, but know how you feel.  

However as me and my Mrs have all along just kept our expectations Low about what we can and might be able to do the prospect looking ahead is no different for us from what it has been - and I think that that makes things a lot easier 🙁


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## SocketRocket (Sep 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunate the coronavirus doesn’t seem to be getting bored of infecting us...and it doesn’t get tired and doesn’t sleep, but know how you feel. 

However as me and my Mrs have all along just kept our expectations Low about what we can and might be able to do the prospect looking ahead is no different for us from what it has been - and I think that that makes things a lot easier 🙁
		
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As my old Grandad used to say "Dont expect too much and you wont get dissapointed".


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## GB72 (Sep 13, 2020)

One thing on social media is driving me nuts. Sports clubs, gyms etc are putting all the rules in place and doing their best but then there just seems to be tons of group photos with no distancing. You know the thing 'my gym class smashed it' '4 ball after a great round' 'great for the team to be on the pitch again' all non distanced group photos


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## Billysboots (Sep 13, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



*Yes you know you are I’ll when off your food*.
Sounds just like my symptoms but without the temperature, just can’t put your finger on it.
Mine was well before the main outbreak as well , early .April
Ok now though , touch wood.
		
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When I binned half a takeaway curry I started to worry!

The more people I speak to, the more I am hearing that people have had the virus. The vast majority had very mild or no symptoms, but most still suffer some lingering after effects months later.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Unfortunately now I know two kids who have developed fever et al .. one week into school now. The kids will be fine (I hope) but they will carry it home. I am a big supporter of kids in school *but maybe it is too early*

Click to expand...

But when will be the right time?  Unless we are going to have a bit of a lost generation, they need to start learning.  Get the track and trace running really well and kids can be back in school with minimal risk.


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the governments website I tried and failed to find what the current rule is in respect of a birthday party gathering in a private garden.  I could easy find what it will be from tomorrow - but couldn’t find what it is today. And then for however many individuals from however many households In the garden - what the current limits are for all or some having to go indoors if the weather turns.   Could have posted this as a random irritation.  Don’t need a link just the numbers for today. But a link would be handy.
		
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Could be because they amended the site assuming those that are organizing a party wouldn't wait until late evening to check for details.

But I believe if you really want to look the answer is out there 30


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Could be because they amended the site assuming those that are organizing a party wouldn't wait until late evening to check for details.

But I believe if you really want to look the answer is out there 30
		
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That’s what I thought but couldn’t find it. And I did hunt around the government Covid guidelines website.   And if it rains how many can go indoors. Last minute parties...🙁


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## Old Skier (Sep 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That’s what I thought but couldn’t find it. And I did hunt around the government Covid guidelines website.   And if it rains how many can go indoors. Last minute parties...🙁
		
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Still looks like 30 if you have a big enough house, looks like a late do, put the gazebo up

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/coronavirus-lockdown-rules-four-nations-uk


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## GB72 (Sep 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That’s what I thought but couldn’t find it. And I did hunt around the government Covid guidelines website.   And if it rains how many can go indoors. Last minute parties...🙁
		
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It is simple enough, 2 households, 6 inside, 30 outside but 2 households. It rains, 6 inside, rest have to go home. 

Even easier now, 6 for both any number of households. 

Your post actually makes the current change seem sensible even without the rising infection. Getting into autumn now, worse and colder weather coming. If you have 30 in your garden, how  many are going to tell 24 to go home when it gets cold and dark at 6.30


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## Mudball (Sep 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But when will be the right time?  Unless we are going to have a bit of a lost generation, they need to start learning.  Get the track and trace running really well and kids can be back in school with minimal risk.
		
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i agree.. as i said, i want them back in school.    Track & Trace is essential. If i get to the govt u-turns on this then it might shut down this tread.    

Also, so is testing.  Unfortunately my son developed fever today, so looks like he will be home for the rest of the week.   this also means HID who is an NHS key worker cant see any patients next week.  I am WFH, so it will feel like lockdown June in our household.  Started checking the website, but nothing on..    cant get a kit or a center.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is simple enough, 2 households, 6 inside, 30 outside but 2 households. It rains, 6 inside, rest have to go home.

Even easier now, 6 for both any number of households.

Your post actually makes the current change seem sensible even without the rising infection. Getting into autumn now, worse and colder weather coming. If you have 30 in your garden, how  many are going to tell 24 to go home when it gets cold and dark at 6.30
		
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Did you really mean 30 from only 2 households in a garden?  Where do you find two households that total 30?  Not sure that that could be the case (certainly not what @oldskier thinks - and it was supposed to be straightforward...tish pish).  Easier to understand from tomorrow - if you know all the exceptions and exceptions


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## GB72 (Sep 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you really mean 30 from only 2 households in a garden?  Where do you find two households that total 30?  Not sure that that could be the case (certainly not what @oldskier thinks - and it was supposed to be straightforward...tish pish).  Easier to understand from tomorrow - if you know all the exceptions and exceptions 

Click to expand...

Ok news to me but 30 seconds on Google shows the 30 people was a total myth. Current rules are 6 people from 2 households inside, 6 people from any number of household outside but currently the police cannot intervene in outdoor groups of less than 30.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did you really mean 30 from only 2 households in a garden?  Where do you find two households that total 30?  Not sure that that could be the case (certainly not what @oldskier thinks - and it was supposed to be straightforward...tish pish).  Easier to understand from tomorrow - if you know all the exceptions and exceptions 

Click to expand...

What are you doing on here? Only 3.5 hours left to get that party started


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## robinthehood (Sep 13, 2020)

Teacher at my son's school tested positive, school closing with immediate effect.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 13, 2020)

Mudball said:



			i agree.. as i said, i want them back in school.    Track & Trace is essential. If i get to the govt u-turns on this then it might shut down this tread.    

Also, so is testing.  Unfortunately my son developed fever today, so looks like he will be home for the rest of the week.   this also means HID who is an NHS key worker cant see any patients next week.  I am WFH, so it will feel like lockdown June in our household.  Started checking the website, but nothing on..    cant get a kit or a center.   

View attachment 32354

Click to expand...

Try just getting your wife to drive to the nearest test centre. Flash her pass should get a test 

Guy at work did it sat night his whole family .. the centres aren't packed their almost empty it's the website that's got issues


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## fundy (Sep 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Try just getting your wife to drive to the nearest test centre. Flash her pass should get a test

Guy at work did it sat night his whole family .. the centres aren't packed their almost empty it's the website that's got issues
		
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the laboratories are where the problems are if you believe most reports


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## Mudball (Sep 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Try just getting your wife to drive to the nearest test centre. Flash her pass should get a test 

Guy at work did it sat night his whole family .. the centres aren't packed their almost empty it's the website that's got issues
		
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Just spoke to the Mrs .. last time she under went her test, she went online and got a code. It was very straightforward.  I will leave it in her capable hands.


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## Fish (Sep 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunate the coronavirus doesn’t seem to be getting bored of infecting us...and *it doesn’t get tired and doesn’t sleep*, but know how you feel. 

However as me and my Mrs have all along just kept our expectations Low about what we can and might be able to do the prospect looking ahead is no different for us from what it has been - and I think that that makes things a lot easier 🙁
		
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If anyone is having difficulty working out these new Covid rules, I’ve broken them down for you...

You can meet hundreds of people at work or school, you can brush shoulders, pick their nose's and lick their face if you wish?!

But don’t meet more than 6 of these people in leisure time as the virus has mutated!

It now only infects you if there’s 7 or more people in a group and you’re chilling out.

It can not infect you at school or work, because it’s scared of the huge crowds of people.

You can still go to a pub where you are in an enclosed building breathing in everyone’s germs because Covid doesn’t drink, so it doesn’t go to the pub of course.

But scientists have discovered that Covid is quite partial to your parents or friends garden or house or in the open air where social distancing is very easy!

In fact, this is so risky that councillors are probably sat round a table in the local pub, discussing the closure of them right now!

It’s still ok for you to cram into tourists spots as long as only 6 of you come at once, because 7 might tip it over the edge and make Covid sad.

But you are alright until Monday because the Virus must be still on Holiday.

Think that should clear things up


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## ExRabbit (Sep 14, 2020)

Fish said:



			If anyone is having difficulty working out these new Covid rules, I’ve broken them down for you...

You can meet hundreds of people at work or school, you can brush shoulders, pick their nose's and lick their face if you wish?!

But don’t meet more than 6 of these people in leisure time as the virus has mutated!

It now only infects you if there’s 7 or more people in a group and you’re chilling out.

It can not infect you at school or work, because it’s scared of the huge crowds of people.

You can still go to a pub where you are in an enclosed building breathing in everyone’s germs because Covid doesn’t drink, so it doesn’t go to the pub of course.

But scientists have discovered that Covid is quite partial to your parents or friends garden or house or in the open air where social distancing is very easy!

In fact, this is so risky that councillors are probably sat round a table in the local pub, discussing the closure of them right now!

It’s still ok for you to cram into tourists spots as long as only 6 of you come at once, because 7 might tip it over the edge and make Covid sad.

But you are alright until Monday because the Virus must be still on Holiday.

Think that should clear things up

Click to expand...

Or maybe they are just making things simpler for simple people who can't follow the previous rules . Which has now caused a new spike.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 14, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			Or maybe they are just making things simpler for simple people *who can't follow the previous rules . Which has now caused a new spike*.
		
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But has people not following rules causes the new spike?  I know this is a certain narrative, but how much has people taking advantage of the eat out to help out and going back to restaurants and bars impacted this? How much has people going back on public transport to go back into city centres to work caused it?  How much will schools and universities going back cause it? 

Not saying these things were not needed, but I think we need to be careful assuming the spike is all the fault of people having house parties or raves as they can be an easy scapegoat for certain sections of our press.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But has people not following rules causes the new spike?  I know this is a certain narrative, but how much has people taking advantage of the eat out to help ut and going back to restaurants and bars impacted this? How much has people going back on public transport to go back into city centres to work caused it?  How much will schools and universities going back cause it?  

Not saying these things were not needed, but I think we need to be careful assuming the spike is all the fault of people having house parties or raves as they can be an easy scapegoat for certain sections of our press.
		
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I liked the 24yr old lass really quite upset about their age group being blamed...after all - she said - it’s her age group that, in the main, work the pubs, restaurants, bars, cafes, coffee shops, golf clubs etc - so are the most exposed to the virus carried and spread by everyone else.


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## Mudball (Sep 14, 2020)

Fish said:



			If anyone is having difficulty working out these new Covid rules, I’ve broken them down for you...

You can meet hundreds of people at work or school, you can brush shoulders, pick their nose's and lick their face if you wish?!

But don’t meet more than 6 of these people in leisure time as the virus has mutated!

It now only infects you if there’s 7 or more people in a group and you’re chilling out.

It can not infect you at school or work, because it’s scared of the huge crowds of people.

You can still go to a pub where you are in an enclosed building breathing in everyone’s germs because Covid doesn’t drink, so it doesn’t go to the pub of course.

But scientists have discovered that Covid is quite partial to your parents or friends garden or house or in the open air where social distancing is very easy!

In fact, this is so risky that councillors are probably sat round a table in the local pub, discussing the closure of them right now!

It’s still ok for you to cram into tourists spots as long as only 6 of you come at once, because 7 might tip it over the edge and make Covid sad.

But you are alright until Monday because the Virus must be still on Holiday.

Think that should clear things up

Click to expand...

The virus uses the same logic as a credit card ... it will look up your Home address before attacking. If the address does not match, then it will stay dormant.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But has people not following rules causes the new spike?  I know this is a certain narrative, but how much has people taking advantage of the eat out to help out and going back to restaurants and bars impacted this? How much has people going back on public transport to go back into city centres to work caused it?  How much will schools and universities going back cause it?

Not saying these things were not needed, but I think we need to be careful assuming the spike is all the fault of people having house parties or raves as they can be an easy scapegoat for certain sections of our press.
		
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But where does that leave those who told us that the football match at Anfield and the Cheltenham Festival in March significantly contributed to the original spikes in those areas?

And both were essentially outdoors events 🤔

Do gatherings and parties etc; not contribute in the same way?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2020)

Our Golden Wedding Anniversary next month. 
It is going to be a quiet celebration.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But where does that leave those who told us that the football match at Anfield and the Cheltenham Festival in March significantly contributed to the original spikes in those areas?

And both were essentially outdoors events 🤔

Do gatherings and parties etc; not contribute in the same way?
		
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Thousands of strangers all crammed into a tight space shouting, screaming, sneezing, coughing and singing is a bit different don't you think.
It is going to be years before football fans will be allowed back in their previous numbers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But where does that leave those who told us that the football match at Anfield and the Cheltenham Festival in March significantly contributed to the original spikes in those areas?

And both were essentially outdoors events 🤔

Do gatherings and parties etc; not contribute in the same way?
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is that households at those few sorts of gatherings of up to 30 (that are allowed under the new regime) must still maintain social distancing...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thousands of strangers all crammed into a tight space shouting, screaming, sneezing, coughing and singing is a bit different don't you think.
It is going to be years before football fans will be allowed back in their previous numbers.
		
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Have you never seen  a rave, hundreds  sometimes thousands, crammed  into  a confined area and certainly not "socially distancing".

I am not calling for a return of crowds at sporting events but I cannot see much difference, other than perhaps numbers, between the two types of gathering.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Have you never seen  a rave, hundreds  sometimes thousands, crammed  into  a confined area and certainly not "socially distancing".

I am not calling for a return of crowds at sporting events but I cannot see much difference, other than perhaps numbers, between the two types of gathering.
		
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A garden party where most people attending would be within touching distance of 8 people for 2 solid hours would be a very strange affair.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But where does that leave those who told us that the football match at Anfield and the Cheltenham Festival in March significantly contributed to the original spikes in those areas?

And both were essentially outdoors events 🤔

Do gatherings and parties etc; not contribute in the same way?
		
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Not 100% sure I get the point.  My point was replying to a post that stated that people not following the rules will cause a spike.  And my point was that people following rules and doing what they have been asked to do for various political and economic reasons may also be contributing, as well as cheesy quavers and party goers.  And there is a danger in just thinking it is rule ignoring ne'er-do-wells that will cause spikes. As I have said before, the re-opening of society and the economy will cause an increase just by the nature that it will increase physical interaction between people and that is how the virus spreads.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A garden party where most people attending would be within touching distance of 8 people for 2 solid hours would be a very strange affair.
		
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Garden parties were clearly not what I was referring to. Indeed I am surprised that anyone would hold such an event in our climate😉

My original post was in response to one which appeared to question the effect of raves and similar gatherings upon the transmission of the virus.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But has people not following rules causes the new spike?  I know this is a certain narrative, but how much has people taking advantage of the eat out to help out and going back to restaurants and bars impacted this? How much has people going back on public transport to go back into city centres to work caused it?  How much will schools and universities going back cause it?

Not saying these things were not needed, but I think we need to be careful assuming the spike is all the fault of people having house parties or raves as they can be an easy scapegoat for certain sections of our press.
		
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The main offenders are people who dont social distance and from what I can see there are plenty of these around.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My understanding is that households at those few sorts of gatherings of up to 30 (that are allowed under the new regime) must still maintain social distancing...
		
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Not quite sure what you are getting at here.
Gatherings, and those exempt  from the six rule, are clearly defined.
The SD is recommendation where possible.I say that, as opposed to mandatory as you suggest, because, for example, one of the exemptions from the six rule is "organised team sports......"  I don't see S D possible there.😀

Also, households are non SD by definition. That is recognised as a situation where SD can never have been practicable.

Personally, if My household were to attend a wedding or funeral we would still practice SD, acI would hope the others would. But if they didn't I don't see it breaking the law.


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## bobmac (Sep 14, 2020)

Anyone mixing with anyone unnecessarily in 2020 needs their bumps felt.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Not 100% sure I get the point.  My point was replying to a post that stated that people not following the rules will cause a spike.  And my point was that people following rules and doing what they have been asked to do for various political and economic reasons may also be contributing, as well as cheesy quavers and party goers.  And there is a danger in just thinking it is rule ignoring ne'er-do-wells that will cause spikes. As I have said before, the re-opening of society and the economy will cause an increase just by the nature that it will increase physical interaction between people and that is how the virus spreads.
		
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Your points regarding the effect created by reopening the economy i agree with. 

After all we must all accept that there is never likely to be 100% safety from the virus and, thus, we must decide what level of risk is acceptable. 

However,  perhaps unintentionally, you did appear to suggest that, in view of other risk factors, we should not be concerned by the type of gathering often attended by a 16 to 35 age group. 

I certainly don't think such parties etc; are anything like the sole factor in the current rise in infections but, like crowds at sports events, they sure don't help in containing the spread.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Anyone mixing with anyone unnecessarily in 2020 needs their bumps felt.
		
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Are you suggesting that all social contact is unnecessary?

Are you expecting 100% safety from the virus?

Life has to go on.


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## bobmac (Sep 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Are you suggesting that all social contact is unnecessary?

Are you expecting 100% safety from the virus?

Life has to go on.
		
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Over 10,000 people in the UK tested positive over the last 3 days.
You go out if you want, I'm not


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Your points regarding the effect created by reopening the economy i agree with.

After all we must all accept that there is never likely to be 100% safety from the virus and, thus, we must decide what level of risk is acceptable.

However,  perhaps unintentionally, you did appear to suggest that, in view of other risk factors, *we should not be concerned by the type of gathering often attended by a 16 to 35 age group.*

I certainly don't think such parties etc; are anything like the sole factor in the current rise in infections but, like crowds at sports events, they sure don't help in containing the spread.
		
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I think there is a concern but agree with your last sentence. 

I think it is the same with every other subject that gets reported in the media, it is reduced down to some simple, often binary explanations that completely ignore the nuances and complexity of what is going on. Papers and increasingly the radio phone ins have done it for ages, and it never really helps.


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## road2ruin (Sep 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You go out if you want, I'm not
		
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And that's exactly how it should be. Those who are terrified of the virus should feel free to lock themselves away for the foreseeable future. For those who view the levels of risk as acceptable should be able to go about their life in the most normal way that is possible given present conditions IMO.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Over 10,000 people in the UK tested positive over the last 3 days.
You go out if you want, I'm not
		
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10,000 = 0.015% of the population

And most of those appear to be condensed into certain large conurbations, all of which I avoid.

Obviously each of us is free to decide how much risk is acceptable to us as individuals but personally I refuse to become a  prisoner until it is demanded by the regulations.

In the meantime I will continue to take appropriate precautions.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think there is a concern but agree with your last sentence.

I think it is the same with every other subject that gets reported in the media, it is reduced down to some simple, often binary explanations that completely ignore the nuances and complexity of what is going on. Papers and increasingly the radio phone ins have done it for ages, and it never really helps.
		
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I think I have said before that, in general,  the media is not emerging from this in a good light.

Constantly attempting to, as you say, define every issue in binary terms; good or bad, young or old and so on.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Over 10,000 people in the UK tested positive over the last 3 days.
You go out if you want, I'm not
		
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Of these 10,000, how many are in hospital; how many have died; and how many were asymptomatic?

If we are increasing the number of tests then we are going to find more people with it, the question is how badly are these people affected.


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## bobmac (Sep 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Of these 10,000, how many are in hospital; how many have died; and how many were asymptomatic?
		
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I don't really care. I do hope they all have a full recovery but in my opinion, the more contact I have with other people, the more chance I have of catching this potentially killer virus.



Blue in Munich said:



			If we are increasing the number of tests then we are going to find more people with it, the question is how badly are these people affected.
		
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I'm aware of that and that they are also testing in 'hot spots' but people move about these days.

I'm not terrified of the virus, I still go out shopping but I keep these outings to a minimum and at early doors when there are less people about.
Tesco at 06.30 is perfect


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 14, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I don't really care. I do hope they all have a full recovery but in my opinion, the more contact I have with other people, the more chance I have of catching this potentially killer virus.



I'm aware of that and that they are also testing in 'hot spots' but people move about these days.

I'm not terrified of the virus, I still go out shopping but I keep these outings to a minimum and at early doors when there are less people about.
Tesco at 06.30 is perfect
		
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That's your choice, but how about presenting it slightly more reasonably in your original post?  

My Mrs has just spent half an hour on the phone trying to reassure a member of staff with issues caused in no small part by people screaming about the number of cases and how the end of the world is nigh.  

Simply shouting about the numbers is not helpful.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



*Not quite sure what you are getting at here*.
Gatherings, and those exempt  from the six rule, are clearly defined.
The SD is recommendation where possible.I say that, as opposed to mandatory as you suggest, because, for example, one of the exemptions from the six rule is "organised team sports......"  I don't see S D possible there.😀

Also, households are non SD by definition. That is recognised as a situation where SD can never have been practicable.

Personally, if My household were to attend a wedding or funeral we would still practice SD, acI would hope the others would. But if they didn't I don't see it breaking the law.
		
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Not getting at anything deep tbh - @MetalMickie raised a comparison between huge crowds at Anfield/Cheltenham and up to 30 individuals in a garden.  My point is simply that the latter would happen under covid SD rules whereas the former clearly didn't - and so much less risk of infection at the garden party.


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2020)

Local school closes as over 100 pupils test positive.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not getting at anything deep tbh - @MetalMickie raised a comparison between huge crowds at Anfield/Cheltenham and up to 30 individuals in a garden.  My point is simply that the latter would happen under covid SD rules whereas the former clearly didn't - and so much less risk of infection at the garden party.
		
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Actually I made no mention of groups of 30 or garden parties. 

I was referring to raves a House Parties. 

In any event,  I may be wrong but I thought 30 as a limit applied only to hatch  match and dispatch! i.e. christenings, weddings and funerals.


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## bobmac (Sep 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			That's your choice, but how about presenting it slightly more reasonably in your original post? 

My Mrs has just spent half an hour on the phone trying to reassure a member of staff with issues caused in no small part by people screaming about the number of cases and how the end of the world is nigh. 

Simply shouting about the numbers is not helpful.
		
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I wasn't screaming the end of the world is nigh, you can blame that on the evangelicals and the book of revelations. I was simply reminding folk that this virus isn't going away soon and if I want to gather with friends, I'll do it when I feel it's safe and not when some MP tells me to do so.


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## GB72 (Sep 14, 2020)

This is where I am trying to be more understanding. Some people are not comfortable going out, that is fine, stay home as much as possible. Some people can afford not to work, that is great but don't judge others who are. Some people need social contact for their own mental health, great, stick to the rules but go out and see people. Some people have been missing a pint in the pub which was the highlight of their week. Great, follow the rules and have a beer. 

There is not one situation that will fit everyone. Take the people in parks during lockdown, easy to judge them when you are in a nice house that you can walk out into the countryside from but think if they were in an inner city environment. If you were the same and could get out of a flat for an hour a day would you be heading to the nearest green space, I would. 

Too many people want to create partisan news stories out of this when actually what we need is a bit of understanding as to other people's positions. There will always be idiots and the prss will be looking for them to try and create a sensationalist story. For every rave etc you can bet that there are a group of respected pillars of the community in their later years having a big barbecue or a house party etc. No one group is to blame and no one group is totally clear of all wrongdoing, the only common factor amongst the major breaches is a lack of respect for others and their community.


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## DanFST (Sep 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is where I am trying to be more understanding. Some people are not comfortable going out, that is fine, stay home as much as possible. Some people can afford not to work, that is great but don't judge others who are. Some people need social contact for their own mental health, great, stick to the rules but go out and see people. Some people have been missing a pint in the pub which was the highlight of their week. Great, follow the rules and have a beer.

There is not one situation that will fit everyone. Take the people in parks during lockdown, easy to judge them when you are in a nice house that you can walk out into the countryside from but think if they were in an inner city environment. If you were the same and could get out of a flat for an hour a day would you be heading to the nearest green space, I would.

Too many people want to create partisan news stories out of this when actually what we need is a bit of understanding as to other people's positions. There will always be idiots and the prss will be looking for them to try and create a sensationalist story. For every rave etc you can bet that there are a group of respected pillars of the community in their later years having a big barbecue or a house party etc. No one group is to blame and no one group is totally clear of all wrongdoing, the only common factor amongst the major breaches is a lack of respect for others and their community.
		
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Get out of here with your reasonableness!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Actually I made no mention of groups of 30 or garden parties.

I was referring to raves a House Parties.

In any event,  I may be wrong but I thought 30 as a limit applied only to hatch  match and dispatch! i.e. christenings, weddings and funerals.
		
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it is now   I miisunderstood the parties you were referring to. sorry.


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## GB72 (Sep 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I don't think it's that simple, sadly. We wouldn't suggest that those who want to drive at 120 mph should do so if they feel the risk is acceptable and those who are terrified of crashing should stick to the limits.
		
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That is looking at it from totally the wrong angle. The point made is if you want to drive 70 on the motorway then that is fine but if you do not feel that you are comfortable, drive at 50 if you want. The point being made is that there is no compulsion to take the rules to the limit, if you do not want to do everything that you are permitted to do then don't, say at home.


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## GB72 (Sep 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Ah. I thought the post I replied to was advocating people should be free to do whatever they felt comfortable with despite any govt restrictions.

I stand corrected.
		
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Could be me, I read it as do what you want within the rules but don't feel you have to.


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## road2ruin (Sep 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Could be me, I read it as do what you want within the rules but don't feel you have to.
		
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This is correct and how I meant it rather than it being a free for all!


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## Mudball (Sep 14, 2020)

Been running around to find options to get my son tested.  i just realised that there are a few options for testing
1) Open to all >> Free >> NHS testing > No availability anywhere
2) Private
   a) via insurance >> some cos like Vitality cover it.  You pay some money 20-50 quid to get the test done.
   b) Private-Private >> Some GP practices provide the service ... cost 100-200
3) Home swab.. Lloyds pharmacy does this.. currently about £99 for the kit.  It does take a few days due to postal timing

4) Grin & bear it

I am past blaming our Govt for such things..  We reap whatever the majority vote for..


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## Fade and Die (Sep 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Been running around to find options to get my son tested.  i just realised that there are a few options for testing
1) Open to all >> Free >> NHS testing > No availability anywhere
2) Private
   a) via insurance >> some cos like Vitality cover it.  You pay some money 20-50 quid to get the test done.
   b) Private-Private >> Some GP practices provide the service ... cost 100-200
3) Home swab.. Lloyds pharmacy does this.. currently about £99 for the kit.  It does take a few days due to postal timing

4) Grin & bear it

I am past blaming our Govt for such things..  We reap whatever the majority vote for..
		
Click to expand...


But how accurate are the tests?

My wife was admitted to Hospital on Saturday, she has autoimmune Hepatitis. On admission she had a test for Covid. She was all clear, Today she had another test and it has come back positive. She called me, upset thinking she has contracted it in hospital. She has calmed down some now as the Liver specialist has said she might not have it as they are getting patients testing positive then following it up with 3 or 4 negative tests!
BTW the no visitors rule is bloody hard...  Understandable, but hard.


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## Mudball (Sep 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			But how accurate are the tests?

My wife was admitted to Hospital on Saturday, she has autoimmune Hepatitis. On admission she had a test for Covid. She was all clear, Today she had another test and it has come back positive. She called me, upset thinking she has contracted it in hospital. She has calmed down some now as the Liver specialist has said she might not have it as they are getting patients testing positive then following it up with 3 or 4 negative tests!
BTW the no visitors rule is bloody hard...  Understandable, but hard. 

Click to expand...

FnD... sorry to hear about the situation.  Hopefully it will get better soon

It is a very good question... While the track & trace has been an omnishambles, i am hoping atleast the tests are accurate.  I am sure there will be a level of false positives, but hopefully that is statistically insignificant


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## Fade and Die (Sep 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			FnD... sorry to hear about the situation.  Hopefully it will get better soon

It is a very good question... While the track & trace has been an omnishambles, i am hoping atleast the tests are accurate.  I am sure there will be a level of false positives, but hopefully that is statistically insignificant
		
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Thank you, I am also hoping its just a false positive. The hospital hasn't moved her to any special ward just put a curtain around her. They also haven't retested her yet!


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Ah. I thought the post I replied to was advocating people should be free to do whatever they felt comfortable with despite any govt restrictions.

I stand corrected.
		
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I read it like you did also and it still seems to say that. Unless " present
Conditions "means present rules and government restrictions.


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## Ethan (Sep 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			But how accurate are the tests?

My wife was admitted to Hospital on Saturday, she has autoimmune Hepatitis. On admission she had a test for Covid. She was all clear, Today she had another test and it has come back positive. She called me, upset thinking she has contracted it in hospital. She has calmed down some now as the Liver specialist has said she might not have it as they are getting patients testing positive then following it up with 3 or 4 negative tests!
BTW the no visitors rule is bloody hard...  Understandable, but hard. 

Click to expand...

There are several explanations for this. 

1. She was infected with Covid at admission, but not enough to trigger a positive test. It takes about 2 days.

2. One or other test is wrong. There is a false positive and a false negative rate. In a population, false positives are preferable to false negatives because it is better to isolate someone who doesn't need isolating that fail to isolate someone who does need it. There is a trade off between FP and FN, so to get less of one, you kinda have to accept more of the other. Therefore the tests are more biased towards false positives. It is possible that people test positive then negative if they are asymptomatic and are first tested on day 4 or 5 of their infectivity, then a repeat on day 8 when the test had dropped back to negative. It doesn't mean the positive was a false positive. 

3. Some element of her condition or treatment interfered with the test.

Anyway, hope she is OK with regard to her liver and any Covid she might have.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 14, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There are several explanations for this.

1. She was infected with Covid at admission, but not enough to trigger a positive test. It takes about 2 days.

2. One or other test is wrong. There is a false positive and a false negative rate. In a population, false positives are preferable to false negatives because it is better to isolate someone who doesn't need isolating that fail to isolate someone who does need it. There is a trade off between FP and FN, so to get less of one, you kinda have to accept more of the other. Therefore the tests are more biased towards false positives. It is possible that people test positive then negative if they are asymptomatic and are first tested on day 4 or 5 of their infectivity, then a repeat on day 8 when the test had dropped back to negative. It doesn't mean the positive was a false positive.

3. Some element of her condition or treatment interfered with the test.

*Anyway, hope she is OK with regard to her liver and any Covid she might have*.
		
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Thank you, I suppose time will tell on both issues.... I thought they might of retested her but they don’t seem to be in much of a hurry to do anything.


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## Fish (Sep 14, 2020)

There will never be an end to Covid.

It will never go away.

We have to get used to it and get used to living with it.

Flu came along, killed hundreds of thousands. We live with it. It's part of our everyday lives.

Cancer kills millions.

We don't stop eating foods and living lifestyles that increase the risks of getting it.

We can't live in fear forever.

They say 1 in 2.5 people will get cancer.

The odds of catching covid are 44 million to one.

If you did catch it, it's 1 in a 100 percent chance of dying.

I'll take those odds.

I'd rather myself and my children's lives be full of enjoyment and freedom than live a life suppressed and full of fear.

Get the sports stadiums back open.

Theme parks as they were before.

Get the leisure centres back up and running. Put concerts and festivals on.

If people don't wanna risk it then don't go.

Give us the decision on how to live our lives.

To quote the Shawshank, it's time to either get busy living or get busy dying.

I know which I'd rather do.....

*copied but agree entirely.


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2020)

40 miles up the road there is a small city called Lorca, pop 92,000. In the last week there's been a smidge short of 500 NEW cases. Some might say, "what do you expect with all the testing going on." However, several hospital wards are now full, and that's the ones that aren't too ill. ICU has already gone past being full, and seriously ill patients are also now in operating theatres, induction rooms and theatre recovery. 

Lorca has been placed back in to phase 1 of lockdown. Not quite full on, can't go out lockdown of phase 0 but the very next level. Two people can go shopping but one person gets to stay outside the shop, or go to another shop. Exercise consists of a 1km walk once a day. And the time of that walk depends on their age. Bars and restaurants are closed.


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## fundy (Sep 14, 2020)

"They say 1 in 2.5 people will get cancer.

The odds of catching covid are 44 million to one.

If you did catch it, it's 1 in a 100 percent chance of dying. "


Consistent maths not their strong point I guess


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2020)

fundy said:



			"They say 1 in 2.5 people will get cancer.

The odds of catching covid are 44 million to one.

If you did catch it, it's 1 in a 100 percent chance of dying. "


Consistent maths not their strong point I guess
		
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If the odds of catching Covid are 44 million to 1, I guess only 1.5 people in the UK caught it?


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## fundy (Sep 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If the odds of catching Covid are 44 million to 1, I guess only 1.5 people in the UK caught it?
		
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only 1 in 100 of that 1.5 people died too


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## fundy (Sep 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			40 miles up the road there is a small city called Lorca, pop 92,000. In the last week there's been a smidge short of 500 NEW cases. Some might say, "what do you expect with all the testing going on." However, several hospital wards are now full, and that's the ones that aren't too ill. ICU has already gone past being full, and seriously ill patients are also now in operating theatres, induction rooms and theatre recovery.

Lorca has been placed back in to phase 1 of lockdown. Not quite full on, can't go out lockdown of phase 0 but the very next level. Two people can go shopping but one person gets to stay outside the shop, or go to another shop. Exercise consists of a 1km walk once a day. And the time of that walk depends on their age. Bars and restaurants are closed.
		
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doesnt sound good  stay safe


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## road2ruin (Sep 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If the odds of catching Covid are 44 million to 1, I guess only 1.5 people in the UK caught it?
		
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I saw this story earlier, the figure (based on the ONS figures on Sept 1st) was 44 in a million rather than 44 million to 1.


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## fundy (Sep 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I saw this story earlier, the figure (based on the ONS figures on Sept 1st) was 44 in a million rather than 44 million to 1.
		
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and in what timescale, as the cancer stat quoted is lifetime, thats not lifetime chance


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## road2ruin (Sep 14, 2020)

fundy said:



			and in what timescale, as the cancer stat quoted is lifetime, thats not lifetime chance
		
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This is the article that the 44 in a million comes from. No idea about the cancer stats etc. 

‪THE odds of catching Covid-19 in England are about 44 in a million a day, official figures show.

There are between 1,200 and 4,200 new infections a day, testing figures from the Office for National Statistics suggest.


And many of those infected will not even know they have it. Only about one person in 100 dies after being infected and another one in 100 suffer long-term effects.
There is just a one in two million chance of dying from Covid-19 in England.
That means coronavirus is as risky as taking a bath or skiing — and considerably less risky than scuba diving or sky diving.

Economist Tim Harford examined the numbers collated by the ONS to assess the current risk.
Tim, who presents the BBC Radio 4 statistics programme More or Less, said: “Covid-19 currently presents a background risk of a one in a million chance of death or lasting harm, every day.
“The risk of death alone is one in two million.”

Tim explained he started doing the maths when a friend in self-isolation asked him what the risks really were.

He said: “Simply existing in a country where the virus is suppressed but circulating is not so risky.
“It depends on age, gender, geography, behaviour and much else.

“But on average it is similar to taking a bath, going skiing, or a short motorbike ride, and considerably less risky than a scuba dive or a skydive.”
“My friend will have to make his own decisions, as we all will.
“But the risk to most individuals in the UK seems modest, for now.”


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## fundy (Sep 14, 2020)

Thanks

The cancer stat of 1 in 2.5 is clearly lifetime, the prev article then tries to compare it to the covid stat of daily, and doesnt even manage to do that correctly
Just shows how much rubbish is out there, and worryingly how many people read it and think it is correct


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## IainP (Sep 14, 2020)

I reckon to have a reasonable grasp of the maths. Still think the risk increases once the health facilities become overwhelmed. Looks close in Marseille.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54151281


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 14, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			But how accurate are the tests?

My wife was admitted to Hospital on Saturday, she has autoimmune Hepatitis. On admission she had a test for Covid. She was all clear, Today she had another test and it has come back positive. She called me, upset thinking she has contracted it in hospital. She has calmed down some now as the Liver specialist has said she might not have it as they are getting patients testing positive then following it up with 3 or 4 negative tests!
BTW the no visitors rule is bloody hard...  Understandable, but hard. 

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear. Hope things work out well.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 14, 2020)

Fish said:



			There will never be an end to Covid.

It will never go away.

We have to get used to it and get used to living with it.

Flu came along, killed hundreds of thousands. We live with it. It's part of our everyday lives.

Cancer kills millions.

We don't stop eating foods and living lifestyles that increase the risks of getting it.

We can't live in fear forever.

They say 1 in 2.5 people will get cancer.

The odds of catching covid are 44 million to one.

If you did catch it, it's 1 in a 100 percent chance of dying.

I'll take those odds.

I'd rather myself and my children's lives be full of enjoyment and freedom than live a life suppressed and full of fear.

Get the sports stadiums back open.

Theme parks as they were before.

Get the leisure centres back up and running. Put concerts and festivals on.

If people don't wanna risk it then don't go.

*Give us the decision on how to live our lives.*

To quote the Shawshank, it's time to either get busy living or get busy dying.

I know which I'd rather do.....

*copied but agree entirely.
		
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Come on, sound bites which show hope rather than sense.

Some is true, some is not. Cancer isn't contagious. Covid is.
You want to smoke and contract cancer, fine, your choice, do it and take your chance ( we'll leave the passive argument to one side for the moment)

But you go to a venue and behave where the odds are pretty much that you'll get Covid. Concerts festivals etc, and you get the Covid which you're willing to take your chances with- fine so far.
But then , living your free life, you'll go close to some vulnerable or elderly person, who you are advocating should be living a similar carefree life,( or maybe they are being careful, but their bus seat is next to yours,) and they get your Covid and likely hospital and maybe die.
And those poor buggers who go to work every day in hospital living on top of Covid , in amongst it, as they nurse and try to save their Covid patients- they have to take their chances too.
But that's OK, is it?

Because you can't wait for a few months for a vaccine which will give most a 
chance. 

If the case was that how you treat Covid would only affect you, then I agree
it should be your choice. 

But that is not it.


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## Kellfire (Sep 15, 2020)

Look how many cases we’re seeing and this is with most people still following social distancing and isolating when needed. It’s a few selfish, ignorant morons who are keeping the prevalence up. 

For anyone who think it’s not even that serious a disease, you should be forced to read the daily records of patients who have it - young and old! I’ve done that for many patients including some in their 30s with no previous health conditions and their experience is horrendous. I’m also seeing many have follow up care after they’re “recovered” that shows the long term scarring to their lungs and inflammation of their hearts. The heart issues MAY subside in time but we have no idea yet. 

Also, many people whinge about having the flu when in reality they’ve got nothing more than a cold. The flu is often massively debilitating and floors previously healthy people for weeks or months. 

So far the evidence I’ve seen is that the short to medium term effects are the flu on steroids in terms of the way it affects the body. 

So for anyone who spouts conspiracy theory nonsense, who claims it isn’t true because THEY don’t know anyone who has it it... be thankful because it’s either because your friends and family are being much more cautious than you are or it’s blind luck and you’ll get it sooner than you might think.


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## Mudball (Sep 15, 2020)

Whatever my son brought from school, he has kindly passed to me. Have lost my voice and inflamed and brutally painful throat. 

Still no test in sight, so have to shell out about £150 for a private one per head. Can i deduct that off my taxes? Will I be breaking the law in a specific and limited way if I do that?  Of course the NHS has also lost a resource since HID will have to isolate with us.

For whoever posted that they want to take their chances and live free... happy to host you for a meal. BYO alcohol.


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

Fish said:



			There will never be an end to Covid.

It will never go away.

We have to get used to it and get used to living with it.

Flu came along, killed hundreds of thousands. We live with it. It's part of our everyday lives.

Cancer kills millions.

We don't stop eating foods and living lifestyles that increase the risks of getting it.

We can't live in fear forever.

They say 1 in 2.5 people will get cancer.

The odds of catching covid are 44 million to one.

If you did catch it, it's 1 in a 100 percent chance of dying.

I'll take those odds.

I'd rather myself and my children's lives be full of enjoyment and freedom than live a life suppressed and full of fear.

Get the sports stadiums back open.

Theme parks as they were before.

Get the leisure centres back up and running. Put concerts and festivals on.

If people don't wanna risk it then don't go.

Give us the decision on how to live our lives.

To quote the Shawshank, it's time to either get busy living or get busy dying.

I know which I'd rather do.....

*copied but agree entirely.
		
Click to expand...


That is a naive and silly post. Covid is happening right now. The chance of dying may be 1 in 100, but the chance of a hospital stay is higher, the chance of a chronic illness higher again. If you are older, those odds are worse, and for everyone increasing daily, faster than they ever have. You compare the probability of getting Covid in the short term with the lifetime chance of getting cancer. That is statistically nonsensical. You say that we still eat foods that cause cancer. Not sure why that is relevant, it is a bit like saying air travel is risky so why worry about a seat belt in the car. One has nothing to do with the other. In fact, you are wrong anyway, diets have improved a lot, smoking has fallen massively, people wear sun protection and get screened. We have done a lot to reduce cancer, and the age-specific cancer rates for most cancers are falling. The innumerate see that a lot of people die from cancer, but we can't prevent death, and you will die of something but it is happening much later than ever, therefore in epidemiological terms, rates are falling. We coped with flu? Spanish flu killed up to 50 million people. Not sure I would call that coping very well. 

It is beyond stupid to blithely say that if people don't want to go to theme parks or concerts, they just shouldn't go. I don't think you understand how transmission works. You mean that those people should not go, nor ever come into contact with anybody else who did go. Never see granny again, kids. 

Covid may or may not go away, but if we can get through the period until vaccines are widely available, then we can manage it. But not with quotes from The Shawshank Redeemption.


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			This is the article that the 44 in a million comes from. No idea about the cancer stats etc.

‪THE odds of catching Covid-19 in England are about 44 in a million a day, official figures show.

There are between 1,200 and 4,200 new infections a day, testing figures from the Office for National Statistics suggest.


And many of those infected will not even know they have it. Only about one person in 100 dies after being infected and another one in 100 suffer long-term effects.
There is just a one in two million chance of dying from Covid-19 in England.
That means coronavirus is as risky as taking a bath or skiing — and considerably less risky than scuba diving or sky diving.

Economist Tim Harford examined the numbers collated by the ONS to assess the current risk.
Tim, who presents the BBC Radio 4 statistics programme More or Less, said: “Covid-19 currently presents a background risk of a one in a million chance of death or lasting harm, every day.
“The risk of death alone is one in two million.”

Tim explained he started doing the maths when a friend in self-isolation asked him what the risks really were.

He said: “Simply existing in a country where the virus is suppressed but circulating is not so risky.
“It depends on age, gender, geography, behaviour and much else.

“But on average it is similar to taking a bath, going skiing, or a short motorbike ride, and considerably less risky than a scuba dive or a skydive.”
“My friend will have to make his own decisions, as we all will.
“But the risk to most individuals in the UK seems modest, for now.”
		
Click to expand...

Tim Harford has 'clarified' his analysis to point out that the period for prevalence estimates is rather different between Covid and taking a bath. The fact that some people die in the bath doesn't mean the bath killed them, by the way. If you know of an ICU in France which is 100% occupied by people who suffered illness while in the bath, do tell me all about it. Otherwise try to use something that makes sense. Also, I am not aware of any examples of someone who has died because their friend took a bath. Bath-related death is probably not transmissible.


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## TheDiablo (Sep 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Whatever my son brought from school, he has kindly passed to me. Have lost my voice and inflamed and brutally painful throat.

Still no test in sight, so have to shell out about £150 for a private one per head. Can i deduct that off my taxes? Will I be breaking the law in a specific and limited way if I do that?  Of course the NHS has also lost a resource since HID will have to isolate with us.

For whoever posted that they want to take their chances and live free... happy to host you for a meal. BYO alcohol.
		
Click to expand...

What symptoms of COVID-19 do you have? 

One of the main reasons identified for the struggle to meet testing demand is people going for tests at the first sign of a sore throat. That's not a symptom for Covid. 

A couple of weeks back the 3 in my house all came down with a very heavy summer cold at the same time. However there was no temperature, no new persistent cough and no loss of taste. Therefore, no need for a test.


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			What symptoms of COVID-19 do you have?

One of the main reasons identified for the struggle to meet testing demand is people going for tests at the first sign of a sore throat. That's not a symptom for Covid.

A couple of weeks back the 3 in my house all came down with a very heavy summer cold at the same time. However there was no temperature, no new persistent cough and no loss of taste. Therefore, no need for a test.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, and my son has a sore throat and a snotty nose right now, and neither are Covid symptoms.


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## Mudball (Sep 15, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			What symptoms of COVID-19 do you have? 

One of the main reasons identified for the struggle to meet testing demand is people going for tests at the first sign of a sore throat. That's not a symptom for Covid. 

A couple of weeks back the 3 in my house all came down with a very heavy summer cold at the same time. However there was no temperature, no new persistent cough and no loss of taste. Therefore, no need for a test.
		
Click to expand...

I am looking for my son rather than for me (as yet).... he has had cough, fever, runny nose, sour throat... that’s 2 of the 3. He was examined by his GP who are running a hot clinic. They asked us to get it tested. So to be clear, this is not a vanity project. I am hoping that it is something else (like Ethan’s). 
No plans to get myself tested yet as I haven’t displayed the symptoms yet.


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## huds1475 (Sep 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am looking for my son rather than for me (as yet).... he has had cough, fever, runny nose, sour throat... that’s 2 of the 3. He was examined by his GP who are running a hot clinic. They asked us to get it tested. So to be clear, this is not a vanity project. I am hoping that it is something else (like Ethan’s). 
No plans to get myself tested yet as I haven’t displayed the symptoms yet.
		
Click to expand...

With C19 and kids going back its a new situation for us all. Especially with a heightened responsibility to protect others if any of the family gets it

Daughter has been running fever, looks like tonsillitis, but doctor monitoring hard to validate.

Glib tripe distributed by morons on Facebook doesn't help the wider situation


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## Mudball (Sep 15, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			With C19 and kids going back its a new situation for us all. Especially with a heightened responsibility to protect others if any of the family gets it

Daughter has been running fever, *looks like tonsillitis*, but doctor monitoring hard to validate.

Glib tripe distributed by morons on Facebook doesn't help the wider situation
		
Click to expand...

They looked for the same in my son, but have ruled it out.   If he hadnt had the fever & cough, then it would have been a simple nurofen job,... but now just sitting on tenterhooks .  

I ignore all the chestbeating (from either side) on social media


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 15, 2020)

Checked in to a hotel this morning and then had to go for a Covid test. Should get the results some time after 1800 tomorrow. I have been told that I'm not allowed to leave my room between now and then. The only small problem with this is that the hotel my company have booked me in to doesn't have a restaurant. Have been given a dispensation to go to the restaurant next door for food if I maintain social distancing but apart from that I'm restricted to my room only.


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## Kellfire (Sep 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Checked in to a hotel this morning and then had to go for a Covid test. Should get the results some time after 1800 tomorrow. I have been told that I'm not allowed to leave my room between now and then. The only small problem with this is that the hotel my company have booked me in to doesn't have a restaurant. Have been given a dispensation to go to the restaurant next door for food if I maintain social distancing but apart from that I'm restricted to my room only.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not convinced they can legally do that? Seems very dodgy.


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## Ethan (Sep 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Checked in to a hotel this morning and then had to go for a Covid test. Should get the results some time after 1800 tomorrow. I have been told that I'm not allowed to leave my room between now and then. The only small problem with this is that the hotel my company have booked me in to doesn't have a restaurant. Have been given a dispensation to go to the restaurant next door for food if I maintain social distancing but apart from that I'm restricted to my room only.
		
Click to expand...

Where are you? In a lockdown zone?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Checked in to a hotel this morning and then had to go for a Covid test. Should get the results some time after 1800 tomorrow. I have been told that I'm not allowed to leave my room between now and then. The only small problem with this is that the hotel my company have booked me in to doesn't have a restaurant. Have been given a dispensation to go to the restaurant next door for food if I maintain social distancing but apart from that I'm restricted to my room only.
		
Click to expand...

No symptoms - No test - so says Hancock


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## pauljames87 (Sep 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No symptoms - No test - so says Hancock
		
Click to expand...

Private test doesn't matter tho does it
Premier League routine tests 

If he is given test by the hotel doesn't matter


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 15, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I’m not convinced they can legally do that? Seems very dodgy.
		
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Ethan said:



			Where are you? In a lockdown zone?
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No symptoms - No test - so says Hancock
		
Click to expand...




pauljames87 said:



			If he is given test by the hotel doesn't matter
		
Click to expand...

Apologies, should have been clearer. It's privately funded testing for a company that I'll be working for. I'm about to go offshore on a project and they require a negative test before we go. It's a company requirement for me to isolate between the test and joining the vessel. Had to travel from home to the hotel, then go to a different hotel where they'd hired a room to do the tests and then back to my original hotel.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No symptoms - No test - so says Hancock
		
Click to expand...

Also some NHS trusts require a test before ops

If we had a planned c section we both had to have a covid test then isolate for 2 days after the result


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2020)

My Mrs is working from home...on a cancer charity Helpline.

This is fine as it saves the cost of two days commute into London.  However as all charity employees are currently working from home the load on their small IT team is significant - plus of course they cant do local support...i.e. going to a desk and helping someone sort their problem.,

And so I have become her local IT support.  And that can be problematic, stressful and at times not a lot conducive to healthy marital relations...

Anyway - we consider ourselves very fortunate...


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## Mudball (Sep 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Apologies, should have been clearer. It's privately funded testing for a company that I'll be working for. I'm about to go offshore on a project and they require a negative test before we go. It's a company requirement for me to isolate between the test and joining the vessel. Had to travel from home to the hotel, then go to a different hotel where they'd hired a room to do the tests and then back to my original hotel.
		
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I dont see why this is wrong...  

Got a note from school, that they need a negative test if kiddo had fever at any point.   Not sure how that can be arranged without doing it privately.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 15, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Checked in to a hotel this morning and then had to go for a Covid test. Should get the results some time after 1800 tomorrow. I have been told that I'm not allowed to leave my room between now and then. The only small problem with this is that the hotel my company have booked me in to doesn't have a restaurant. Have been given a dispensation to go to the restaurant next door for food if I maintain social distancing but apart from that I'm restricted to my room only.
		
Click to expand...

Deliveroo or just eat. Contactless delivery. Job done.


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## GreiginFife (Sep 15, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Deliveroo or just eat. Contactless delivery. Job done.
		
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Just did exactly that and I am not even isolating 😁


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## IainP (Sep 15, 2020)

Oh well, went shopping - was a #### with mask worn around his neck who was generally causing mahem. Later he went into conversation with staff member (who seemed fairly senior) and they went around the shop causing more mayhem. Suspect they knew each other. I ultimately challenged the employee on his conduct which didn't go well. Ho hum.


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## yandabrown (Sep 15, 2020)

One of juniors football team is down with fever and sore throat. Chance it might be covid but more likely part of back to school germ fest that happens every September.  Child in question is getting tested on Friday  who knows when the results come. Question is, do we tell all the parents, what about the opposition last Saturday or next Saturday? If it is covid then not isolating until the test comes back could see it spread far and wide or am I overthinking it all, there is no guidance that I can see on the FA site that helps. What to do?


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## fundy (Sep 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			One of juniors football team is down with fever and sore throat. Chance it might be covid but more likely part of back to school germ fest that happens every September.  Child in question is getting tested on Friday  who knows when the results come. Question is, do we tell all the parents, what about the opposition last Saturday or next Saturday? If it is covid then not isolating until the test comes back could see it spread far and wide or am I overthinking it all, there is no guidance that I can see on the FA site that helps. What to do?
		
Click to expand...


how would his school treat it? id do the same as them personally


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## Old Skier (Sep 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			One of juniors football team is down with fever and sore throat. Chance it might be covid but more likely part of back to school germ fest that happens every September.  Child in question is getting tested on Friday  who knows when the results come. Question is, do we tell all the parents, what about the opposition last Saturday or next Saturday? If it is covid then not isolating until the test comes back could see it spread far and wide or am I overthinking it all, there is no guidance that I can see on the FA site that helps. What to do?
		
Click to expand...

Should inform his school and the organizer of the other team and those who were involved ASAP . Your most probably right about it being a run of the mill cold but it might not be.


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## yandabrown (Sep 15, 2020)

fundy said:



			how would his school treat it? id do the same as them personally
		
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Old Skier said:



			Should inform his school and the organizer of the other team and those who were involved ASAP . Your most probably right about it being a run of the mill cold but it might not be.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies. Looking through the teams of school guidance it would appear that nothing is done until a positive test is confirmed, at that point they do a "rapid risk assessment " and act on that (aka make it up as we go along). 
If we tell lots of people, what are they going to do with the information? The choice is self isolate or carry on as before, or would seem that the school is asking for us to carry on as before and I now beleive that the government advice is for only the family to self isolate.


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## Crazyface (Sep 15, 2020)

if we are testing at 250K a day and have been doing since mid June....the population of the UK is 66 million....so every four days we test 1 million people.....so after 120 days we have tested 30 million people....thats half the population of the UK.

Now I know about 200 people and STILL don't know anyone thats had COVID. 

WHO THE BUDDY HELL IS GETTING TESTED MORE THAN ONCE????????


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## Mudball (Sep 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			One of juniors football team is down with fever and sore throat. Chance it might be covid but more likely part of back to school germ fest that happens every September.  Child in question is getting tested on Friday  who knows when the results come. Question is, do we tell all the parents, what about the opposition last Saturday or next Saturday? If it is covid then not isolating until the test comes back could see it spread far and wide or am I overthinking it all, there is no guidance that I can see on the FA site that helps. What to do?
		
Click to expand...

I am in same situation with my son... At our school, if the child has fever at any point then you can’t return to school without the Covid negative result. Hence he is home. Testing privately tomorrow.. fingers crossed. 

Have withdrawn him from all weekend sports.  There is more to life than one match at this point in the season.  Hopefully he will recover in time for his County cricket trials in couple of weeks.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 15, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			if we are testing at 250K a day and have been doing since mid June....the population of the UK is 66 million....so every four days we test 1 million people.....so after 120 days we have tested 30 million people....thats half the population of the UK.

Now I know about 200 people and STILL don't know anyone thats had COVID.

WHO THE BUDDY HELL IS GETTING TESTED MORE THAN ONCE????????
		
Click to expand...

120 days is 4 months, in that time any amount who were tested negative could now be positive.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 15, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am in same situation with my son... At our school, if the child has fever at any point then you can’t return to school without the Covid negative result. Hence he is home. Testing privately tomorrow.. fingers crossed.

Have withdrawn him from all weekend sports.  There is more to life than one match at this point in the season.  Hopefully he will recover in time for his County cricket trials in couple of weeks.
		
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Surely can return after self isolating for the required period and a negative test is just to speed up the return?


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## Mudball (Sep 16, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Surely can return after self isolating for the required period and a negative test is just to speed up the return?
		
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Yes.. 14 days self isolation for whole family due to support bubble. Lost income as Mrs can’t wfh or see her patients


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## pauljames87 (Sep 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Yes.. 14 days self isolation for whole family due to support bubble. Lost income as Mrs can’t wfh or see her patients
		
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No saying it's ideal just the way it came across it was like they off school until a test even over 2 weekd


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 16, 2020)

Bugger. After an extended Covid free period we have two confirmed in. Not sure about the rest of the hospital but our Chief Exec was on local news the other day saying we were Covid free. That was always always going be a form of "commentators curse"

Seems a few of the local hospitals have reported increased cases. We've seen hotspots further north and Slough had been on the Government "watch" list recently so perhaps this is the first ripple in this part of the world. Went to our clinical governance yesterday and some fantastic learning reported and action plans in place going forward so definitely think we are in the best place possible to cope better


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 16, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			if we are testing at 250K a day and have been doing since mid June....the population of the UK is 66 million....so every four days we test 1 million people.....so after 120 days we have tested 30 million people....thats half the population of the UK.

Now I know about 200 people and STILL don't know anyone thats had COVID.

*WHO THE BUDDY HELL IS GETTING TESTED MORE THAN ONCE????????*

Click to expand...

Various organisations are mandating that employees get tested every week and have a Covid free test so they can work that week.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Yes.. 14 days self isolation for whole family due to support bubble. Lost income as Mrs can’t wfh or see her patients
		
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I may be proved wrong but I would not be surprised if most school kids will have had Covid by the end of the academic year just by the fact that kids are in close contact a lot of the time.  My mate's daughter has been sent home to isolate for 14 days, there is someone who has tested positive in my daughters class, this will only increase.

As was made perfectly and abundantly clear by the DFE when the back to school plans for all pupils were announced, the only way to contain it without having whole families isolating for 2 weeks if a kid gets a cold is by a world beating, efficient and fast test and trace system. Unfortunately all political comment is now banned so I can't possibly say if we have such a thing, I'll leave it to people to make their own mind up on all available evidence....


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## Mudball (Sep 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I may be proved wrong but I would not be surprised if most school kids will have had Covid by the end of the academic year just by the fact that kids are in close contact a lot of the time.  My mate's daughter has been sent home to isolate for 14 days, there is someone who has tested positive in my daughters class, this will only increase.

As was made perfectly and abundantly clear by the DFE when the back to school plans for all pupils were announced, the only way to contain it without having whole families isolating for 2 weeks if a kid gets a cold is by a world beating, efficient and fast test and trace system. Unfortunately all political comment is now banned so I can't possibly say if we have such a thing, I'll leave it to people to make their own mind up on all available evidence....
		
Click to expand...

A mate has sent his kid back to school after staying at home for a couple of days.. Both parents work and cant afford to keep the kid home.  I suspect that there are plenty of such cases. Should i grass on him??.  While at the testing centre, cars behind had big kid/teen/young adults in them.  

The T&T is needed but we cannot comment on such things.  Its also funny that after the curve flatlned, they did not use the opportuniity to foresee a rise in cases when schools restarted.  Now if only the Govt took a collective eye test.  

Genuine Q?  So why is the delivery of testing so omnishambles..   Someone mentioned that we have outsourced it to the likes of Serco while Germany is doing it via their medical system.  I have no idea if this is true?


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			A mate has sent his kid back to school after staying at home for a couple of days.. Both parents work and cant afford to keep the kid home.  I suspect that there are plenty of such cases. Should i grass on him??.  While at the testing centre, cars behind had big kid/teen/young adults in them.

The T&T is needed but we cannot comment on such things.  Its also funny that after the curve flatlned, they did not use the opportuniity to foresee a rise in cases when schools restarted.  Now if only the Govt took a collective eye test.

Genuine Q?  So why is the delivery of testing so omnishambles..   Someone mentioned that we have outsourced it to the likes of Serco while Germany is doing it via their medical system.  I have no idea if this is true?
		
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There was a chap on 5 live this morning who works in a test centre saying he expected to have yet another quiet day, sometimes reading books or listening to music to pass the time. He said they have the capacity to do 10 to 15 times the amount of tests they are doing but the backlog is at the labs processing the results.  So the appointments are being (mis)managed based on the capacity of the labs, not the test centres. No idea if outsourcing is a reason, I would not be surprised if it plays a part but as with all things, it is probably much more complex that reducing it down to one reason, after all team UK does seem to have a lot on our plate at the moment.

I see the Daily Mail today is starting a campaign to get the testing sorted out, weird times when I am behind a Daily Mail campaign....  I've also noticed the Daliy Star has suddenly got very political and is creating some funny front pages that no longer just feature women in bikinis.. Today's is great, but I won't post as it is very political.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			There was a chap on 5 live this morning who works in a test centre saying he expected to have yet another quiet day, sometimes reading books or listening to music to pass the time. He said they have the capacity to do 10 to 15 times the amount of tests they are doing but the backlog is at the labs processing the results.  So the appointments are being (mis)managed based on the capacity of the labs, not the test centres. No idea if outsourcing is a reason, I would not be surprised if it plays a part but as with all things, it is probably much more complex that reducing it down to one reason, after all team UK does seem to have a lot on our plate at the moment.

I see the Daily Mail today is starting a campaign to get the testing sorted out, weird times when I am behind a Daily Mail campaign....  I've also noticed the Daliy Star has suddenly got very political and is creating some funny front pages that no longer just feature women in bikinis.. Today's is great, but I won't post as it is very political.

View attachment 32374

Click to expand...

I saw the Daily Star front page last night on Tomorrows Papers.  What a hoot...a topper (of the big variety) of a front page,  'funny' times.


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## robinthehood (Sep 16, 2020)

First day back to the city for me tomorrow, since March.  I dont have to go in, but i'm going stir crazy sat indoors all day every day!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 16, 2020)

One of my employees works part time as a cleaner for a holiday let. They have asked her to clean a house on Friday for the arrival of 12 people, coming from 4 different addresses. She is currently mulling over how to deal with this as it goes against the rules, she has forensically checked the govt website this morning to double check. She has questioned it with letting agency but they are allowing it to proceed. She will not let it go and will report it to the police if necessary, she is strong like that, even though it may cost her job. 

I feel for the police in this, the amount of time they are going to have to spend knocking on doors of people who should know better


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## Ethan (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of my employees works part time as a cleaner for a holiday let. They have asked her to clean a house on Friday for the arrival of 12 people, coming from 4 different addresses. She is currently mulling over how to deal with this as it goes against the rules, she has forensically checked the govt website this morning to double check. She has questioned it with letting agency but they are allowing it to proceed. She will not let it go and will report it to the police if necessary, she is strong like that, even though it may cost her job.

I feel for the police in this, the amount of time they are going to have to spend knocking on doors of people who should know better
		
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I don't think she should risk her job. If she wishes to report it, make sure it is anonymous. You don't know the circumstances of the people, they may have had Covid and are immune, and whether they are or not the police may not take any useful action.


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## DanFST (Sep 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You don't know the circumstances of the people, they may have had Covid and are immune, and whether they are or not the police may not take any useful action.
		
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That's the fantastic thing about this law, it's objective. 6 people only.


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of my employees works part time as a cleaner for a holiday let. They have asked her to clean a house on Friday for the arrival of 12 people, coming from 4 different addresses. She is currently mulling over how to deal with this as it goes against the rules, she has forensically checked the govt website this morning to double check. She has questioned it with letting agency but they are allowing it to proceed. She will not let it go and will report it to the police if necessary, she is strong like that, even though it may cost her job.

I feel for the police in this, the amount of time they are going to have to spend knocking on doors of people who should know better
		
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This sort of situation confused me the other day as the association responsible for holiday lets were complaining that the rule of 6 would lose their members big bookings. That somewhat surprised me as there has never been a situation where more than 6 can meet inside (so stay in one let) or even technically outside in England.


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## huds1475 (Sep 16, 2020)

Same as pubs restricting tables to one household.

Driving past a few such establisments, the genetic variance in some families has been  a triumph of nature.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This sort of situation confused me the other day as the association responsible for holiday lets were complaining that the rule of 6 would lose their members big bookings. *That somewhat surprised me as there has never been a situation where more than 6 can meet inside *(so stay in one let) *or even technically outside in England.*

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Is that true?  I must admit I have not been keeping up to date with all the nuances, but a few weeks ago we had 8 of us from 2 households meeting up.  And my wife does follow the latest rules and is usually hot on following them, and she didn't say anything.


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is that true?  I must admit I have not been keeping up to date with all the nuances, but a few weeks ago we had 8 of us from 2 households meeting up.  And my wife does follow the latest rules and is usually hot on following them, and she didn't say anything.
		
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This was the one time that I have misunderstood. From my understanding, before the change this week, you could have 6 people from 2 households meeting up inside or outside. What developed was a bit of an urban myth that up to 30 people could meet outside. That was incorrect from what I have read and the situation was that the police would not disburse a meeting of 30 people or less.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I don't think she should risk her job. If she wishes to report it, make sure it is anonymous.* You don't know the circumstances of the people, they may have had Covid and are immune*, and whether they are or not the police may not take any useful action.
		
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The rules do not allow for that, it is not part of the equation.


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## Ethan (Sep 16, 2020)

DanFST said:



			That's the fantastic thing about this law, it's objective. 6 people only.
		
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I know, objective is one word, but there are others. It appears the virus moves differently in different parts of the UK.

In any case, I still don't think this woman should risk her job doing something which may result in no action (due to police decision) nor actually make a difference to local virus spread (if they really aren't a risk, immune part).


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## pauljames87 (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of my employees works part time as a cleaner for a holiday let. They have asked her to clean a house on Friday for the arrival of 12 people, coming from 4 different addresses. She is currently mulling over how to deal with this as it goes against the rules, she has forensically checked the govt website this morning to double check. She has questioned it with letting agency but they are allowing it to proceed. She will not let it go and will report it to the police if necessary, she is strong like that, even though it may cost her job.

I feel for the police in this, the amount of time they are going to have to spend knocking on doors of people who should know better
		
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I'd tell her to completely leave it . Not worth the agg ..

Say it's a week what if suddenly this group of 12 decided to split the holiday and come 3 nights each  in 2 groups of 6? She isn't to know because it's not really her business


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## Mudball (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of my employees works part time as a cleaner for a holiday let. They have asked her to clean a house on Friday for the arrival of 12 people, coming from 4 different addresses. She is currently mulling over how to deal with this as it goes against the rules, she has forensically checked the govt website this morning to double check. She has questioned it with letting agency but they are allowing it to proceed. She will not let it go and will report it to the police if necessary, she is strong like that, even though it may cost her job.

I feel for the police in this, the amount of time they are going to have to spend knocking on doors of people who should know better
		
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I feel for the police.. never an easy task.  They are already stretched.

No point in going to them.  Too little context to know how they are being set up, how big the house is etc.  Equally, remember the law does not apply if you are Oxbridge, Tory doner clan.   Why the unnecessrary hassle when not much gains and she cant stop it


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I feel for the police.. never an easy task.  They are already stretched.

No point in going to them.  Too little context to know how they are being set up, how big the house is etc.  *Equally, remember the law does not apply if you are Oxbridge, Tory doner clan.*   Why the unnecessrary hassle when not much gains and she cant stop it
		
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Hey, less of the snark please.  At least we can still go grouse shooting in large groups now. Which is a win for the common people.


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## Ethan (Sep 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey, less of the snark please.  At least we can still go grouse shooting in large groups now. Which is a win for the common people.
		
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Its not great for grouse, though.


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## GB72 (Sep 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Hey, less of the snark please.  At least we can still go grouse shooting in large groups now. Which is a win for the common people.
		
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You may actually be surprised as to the demographic of shoots around my way (OK admittedly not grouse, mainly pheasant). Shooting has a similar issue to golf in that it is seen as an pursuit for the high end of society but actually it is pretty much normal, everyday people who shoot in my area and many finance it by beating when they are not taking part in the shoot itself.


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## Old Skier (Sep 16, 2020)




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## ger147 (Sep 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Its not great for grouse, though.
		
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Fortunately Grouse are much better at social distancing, so any Grouse shoot will only be able to kill a maximum of 6 grouse from one household.


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## Mudball (Sep 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			You may actually be surprised as to the demographic of shoots around my way (OK admittedly not grouse, mainly pheasant). Shooting has a similar issue to golf in that it is seen as an pursuit for the high end of society but actually it is pretty much normal, everyday people who shoot in my area and many finance it by *beating* when they are not taking part in the shoot itself.
		
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What is beating??  I am assuming tat if i have to ask then i m not in..


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## backwoodsman (Sep 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			What is beating??  I am assuming tat if i have to ask then i m not in..
		
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Beating: is scaring the birds up into the air (so the shooters can blast them back down again).


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## SaintHacker (Sep 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One of my employees works part time as a cleaner for a holiday let. They have asked her to clean a house on Friday for the arrival of 12 people, coming from 4 different addresses. She is currently mulling over how to deal with this as it goes against the rules, she has forensically checked the govt website this morning to double check. She has questioned it with letting agency but they are allowing it to proceed. She will not let it go and will report it to the police if necessary, she is strong like that, even though it may cost her job.

I feel for the police in this, the amount of time they are going to have to spend knocking on doors of people who should know better
		
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Sacked for preventing her employers breaking the law? I can hear the lawsuits being drawn up already!


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## Springveldt (Sep 17, 2020)

From the rumours so far it seems golf might be cancelled in the North East from today.


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Beating: is scaring the birds up into the air (so the shooters can blast them back down again).
		
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And source of the expression 'beating _around_ the bush' (when the birds are IN the bush!).


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			There was a chap on 5 live this morning who works in a test centre saying he expected to have yet another quiet day, sometimes reading books or listening to music to pass the time. He said they have the capacity to do 10 to 15 times the amount of tests they are doing but the backlog is at the labs processing the results.  So the appointments are being (mis)managed based on the capacity of the labs, not the test centres. No idea if outsourcing is a reason, I would not be surprised if it plays a part but as with all things, it is probably much more complex that reducing it down to one reason, after all team UK does seem to have a lot on our plate at the moment.

I see the Daily Mail today is starting a campaign to get the testing sorted out, weird times when I am behind a Daily Mail campaign....  I've also noticed the Daliy Star has suddenly got very political and is creating some funny front pages that no longer just feature women in bikinis.. Today's is great, but I won't post as it is very political.

View attachment 32374

Click to expand...

Am I living in some kind of parallel universe now?  I'm not imagining this am I. The rest of you see this as well?  The Daily Mail having a real go at the government and dare I say making sense?  2020 is turning out to be extremely weird.  I wish the Mail would get back to scaring the home counties readers about the threat of immigrants as I know where I stand then and I can just use them as a standard example of a hateful spiteful waste of paper. This is very disconcerting.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

Getting a bit like present day on here. some will respect requests to do things. others will just crack on.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			From the rumours so far it seems golf might be cancelled in the North East from today.
		
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So far outdoor sport has been largely exempt from severe restrictions, after the initial lifting of lockdown. Hopefully it will remain the same. It may well affect cluhouses again but we should be able to get out and play still.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Are Golf Courses still open in areas that are already under local lockdown?


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## Springveldt (Sep 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			So far outdoor sport has been largely exempt from severe restrictions, after the initial lifting of lockdown. Hopefully it will remain the same. It may well affect cluhouses again but we should be able to get out and play still.
		
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Rumours yesterday were saying no mixing households indoors or outdoors but pubs still open. If that's the case you could have 40 people in the clubhouse for a drink but you can't go and play on the course with any of them.


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

I am a member of Doctors Net, a social media platform for UK and Ireland medics, and the debate there is not whether there will be a surge in cases, because pretty much everyone thinks there will be, and soon, but the extent to which we should lock down, with opinions ranging from severe lockdown to eliminate the virus to a Swedish style take it on the chin. Unfortunately with the collapse of test and trace, we are flying semi-blind.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

So I'm due to go on holiday to the magnificent Northumbrian coastline in October, 4 people in one house that includes one person from another family.  Any idea if this will be now allowed?


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## DanFST (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am a member of Doctors Net, a social media platform for UK and Ireland medics, and the debate there is not whether there will be a surge in cases, because pretty much everyone thinks there will be, and soon, but the extent to which we should lock down, with opinions ranging from severe lockdown to *eliminate the virus* to a Swedish style take it on the chin. Unfortunately with the collapse of test and trace, we are flying semi-blind.
		
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"collapse of test and trace" far too kind, never thought it even got set up!

A severe lockdown in an ideal world would be the most effective. However we all know it wouldn't eliminate the virus, people don't follow rules. Also the borders are still open, so pointless!


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## Slab (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am a member of Doctors Net, a social media platform for UK and Ireland medics, and the debate there is not whether there will be a surge in cases, because pretty much everyone thinks there will be, and soon, *but the extent to which we should lock down, *with opinions ranging from severe lockdown to eliminate the virus to a Swedish style take it on the chin. Unfortunately with the collapse of test and trace, we are flying semi-blind.
		
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DanFST said:



			"collapse of test and trace" far too kind, never thought it even got set up!

*A severe lockdown in an ideal world would be the most effective.* However we all know it wouldn't eliminate the virus, people don't follow rules. Also the borders are still open, so pointless!
		
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Timely comments for a thought that occurred to me earlier. so for curiosity. Open to all to answer;

If it was on offer would you accept a 14 day nationwide total lockdown starting tomorrow (not a political lockdown, a medical lockdown) A full blown quarantine style self-isolation for everyone except essential services. No leaving home except for medical care?


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

DanFST said:



			"collapse of test and trace" far too kind, never thought it even got set up!

A severe lockdown in an ideal world would be the most effective. However we all know it wouldn't eliminate the virus, people don't follow rules. Also the borders are still open, so pointless!
		
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Well, it was staggering along on crutches, but has now fallen over completely. 

There was a window in Feb/March where a strict quarantine for inward bound travellers could have significantly reduced the amount of virus that got into the community, so then managing subsequent spread becomes a lot more manageable. With T&T now in intensive care itself, we have lost even the tenuous grip on the numbers. I also maintain that not testing all close contacts of positive cases is a massive mistake. The asymptomatic transmitters need to be ID'd and contact traced just as much as symptomatic cases.


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

Slab said:



			Timely comments for a thought that occurred to me earlier. so for curiosity. Open to all to answer;

If it was on offer would you accept a 14 day nationwide total lockdown starting tomorrow (not a political lockdown, a medical lockdown) A full blown quarantine style self-isolation for everyone except essential services. No leaving home except for medical care?
		
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Yes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Am I living in some kind of parallel universe now?  I'm not imagining this am I. The rest of you see this as well?  The Daily Mail having a real go at the government and dare I say making sense?  2020 is turning out to be extremely weird.  I wish the Mail would get back to scaring the home counties readers about the threat of immigrants as I know where I stand then and I can just use them as a standard example of a hateful spiteful waste of paper. This is very disconcerting. 

View attachment 32384

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It's all very confusing and disconcerting.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 17, 2020)

Been forced to move my office again as we are now up to 3 Covid and it isn't deemed safe for me to be around that side of the unit (where office located). Totally get it and happy to be out but just a pain having to move all the stuff again and trying to plan ahead as to what I may need to take now but not need immediately and finding somewhere to store it


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

Slab said:



			Timely comments for a thought that occurred to me earlier. so for curiosity. Open to all to answer;

If it was on offer would you accept a 14 day nationwide total lockdown *starting tomorrow *(not a political lockdown, a medical lockdown) A full blown quarantine style self-isolation for everyone except essential services. *No leaving home except for medical care?*

Click to expand...

Not really as my milk goes out of date on Saturday so I'd need to restock first.   On a more serious point I'm lucky as I have a relatively big garden to exercise myself and pets, not sure how people with dogs and no garden would cope.


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Been forced to move my office again as we are now up to 3 Covid and it isn't deemed safe for me to be around that side of the unit (where office located). Totally get it and happy to be out but just a pain having to move all the stuff again and trying to plan ahead as to what I may need to take now but not need immediately and finding somewhere to store it
		
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it just isn't safe to have vulnerable people around you, Homer.


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## DanFST (Sep 17, 2020)

Slab said:



			Timely comments for a thought that occurred to me earlier. so for curiosity. Open to all to answer;

If it was on offer would you accept a 14 day nationwide total lockdown starting tomorrow (not a political lockdown, a medical lockdown) A full blown quarantine style self-isolation for everyone except essential services. No leaving home except for medical care?
		
Click to expand...

Need a bit of planning to get myself in order, but i'd do a full military lockdown for up to a month If we could guarantee no virus incoming from overseas. So we could have the rest of the year back to normal. 

I've also had coronavirus, so there's nothing in it for me, maybe, juries still out if i'm immune


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			So I'm due to go on holiday to the magnificent Northumbrian coastline in October, 4 people in one house that includes one person from another family.  Any idea if this will be now allowed?
		
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Technically no, unless that single person is part of your bubble. The next question is will anyone be aware? 4 people in a house is not pushing the boundaries so I doubt anyone would question you.

I'm pretty miffed Northumberland has been included in the lockdown. Cases here are low, the coastal areas you will be visiting will have barely any.


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## Beezerk (Sep 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Technically no, unless that single person is part of your bubble. 




			Support bubble as well, not social bubble so it has to be a carer etc.
		
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Click to expand...


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Technically no, unless that single person is part of your bubble. The next question is will anyone be aware? 4 people in a house is not pushing the boundaries so I doubt anyone would question you.

*I'm pretty miffed Northumberland has been included in the lockdown. Cases here are low, the coastal areas you will be visiting will have barely any*.
		
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Yes, my wife commented that the rate is actually far higher where we live than it is in the area we are going to in Northumberland.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes, my wife commented that the rate is actually far higher where we live than it is in the area we are going to in Northumberland.
		
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Same here in parts of County Durham.
I agree with extra measures being brought in, but it does seem a bit broad brush.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

Is this back to a weapons free zone or is it just for the few. @PhilTheFragger


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is this back to a weapons free zone or is it just for the few.
		
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Mate, why not simply report the posts you are not happy with and let the mods decide.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, why not simply report the posts you are not happy with and let the mods decide.
		
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Nothing I’m not happy with but it appears some have gone political and I wondered if there had been a policy change.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing I’m not happy with but it appears some have gone political and I wondered if there had been a policy change.
		
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Not worth the worry mate, give the question to the mods, they’ve admitted they don’t have time to read every post so asking the question via report helps them.👍🏻


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is this back to a weapons free zone or is it just for the few. @PhilTheFragger

Click to expand...

You can mention  politicians without it being political you know....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			You can mention  politicians without it being political you know....
		
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Obviously not!


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## robinthehood (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Obviously not!
		
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and everyone keeps banging on about politics in that suspension thread and that's  not been closed 🤣


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 17, 2020)

Slab said:



			Timely comments for a thought that occurred to me earlier. so for curiosity. Open to all to answer;

If it was on offer would you accept a 14 day nationwide total lockdown starting tomorrow (not a political lockdown, a medical lockdown) A full blown quarantine style self-isolation for everyone except essential services. No leaving home except for medical care?
		
Click to expand...

Depends what essential services means? If I miss out on time off work again you can stuff it!  
I support martial law and food packages Delivered. 
But I’ll still risk gun point and a fine for my dogs to have a poop.


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## Mudball (Sep 17, 2020)

Slab said:



			Timely comments for a thought that occurred to me earlier. so for curiosity. Open to all to answer;

If it was on offer would you accept a *14 day nationwide total lockdown *starting tomorrow (not a political lockdown, a medical lockdown) A full blown quarantine style self-isolation for everyone except essential services. No leaving home except for medical care?
		
Click to expand...

it will be chaos and political suicide, but if that is needed for medical reasons, i would support it.  Its either now or Christmas is going to get lot worse.  It will be financially crippling, so not an easy decision


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## SaintHacker (Sep 17, 2020)

We already had a full on lockdown for over 6 weeks but that didnt kill it off so why would another two weeks work? Essential workers only allowed out but thats pretty much what we had. Personally i think the economy couldn't cope with another full lockdown so we're going to have to do our best to get through the winter and hope for a vaccine sooner rather than later. Hopefully with what we've learned about the viru, how it can be treated, and how prepared the country is as a whole comparwd to first time round means this wave will not be as destructive


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Is this back to a weapons free zone or is it just for the few. @PhilTheFragger

Click to expand...

No political posts , end of

If you see it, report it, nobody has reported these, I will now have a tidy up


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			it will be chaos and political suicide, but if that is needed for medical reasons, i would support it.  Its either now or Christmas is going to get lot worse.  It will be financially crippling, so not an easy decision
		
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Please have it at Christmas, think how many non arguments and 500 mile trips I’ll miss


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 17, 2020)

Is there anywhere you can view data on hospitalisation of patients by date? It seems pretty pointless to try to compare current cases against what we saw during the first wave as the total number of tests is far higher so there will be more positive test results. There must have been a lot a asymptomatic people that are being picked up now that weren't picked up earlier in the year. I would be interested in seeing a graph of total numbers in hospital as that would seem to be a far better way to compare what is happening now with what happened previously.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is there anywhere you can view data on hospitalisation of patients by date? It seems pretty pointless to try to compare current cases against what we saw during the first wave as the total number of tests is far higher so there will be more positive test results. There must have been a lot a asymptomatic people that are being picked up now that weren't picked up earlier in the year. I would be interested in seeing a graph of total numbers in hospital as that would seem to be a far better way to compare what is happening now with what happened previously.
		
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This might help https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 17, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			You can mention  politicians without it being political you know....
		
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You May.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Need to define "political" then. Some things obviously impacted - *criticising politicians for example.* But can you critically discuss the covid rules? If not can you mention covid rules?  Not even how they impact amateur and professional golf? Can we even discuss the pandemic at all? That's just one example.

Politics are interwoven into our lives and society. Completely impossible to just say "no politics" and expect everyone to draw the line in the same place.
		
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I think as long as you avoid criticizing the current government you'll be fine.


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think as long as you avoid criticizing the current government you'll be fine. 

Click to expand...

If that means avoiding criticising the current policy and practice, then I'm out.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Need to define "political" then. Some things obviously impacted - criticising politicians for example. But can you critically discuss the covid rules? If not can you mention covid rules?  Not even how they impact amateur and professional golf? Can we even discuss the pandemic at all? That's just one example.

Politics are interwoven into our lives and society. Completely impossible to just say "no politics" and expect everyone to draw the line in the same place.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I know it’s not an easy ask ,as you say politics is everywhere

I can’t give hard and fast guidelines, but Mikes note about political posts is the only instruction we have had

Therefore it’s down to individual moderator discretion

Not what you want, but best I can do

Short answer, nothing remotely political anywhere on the forum


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes I know it’s not an easy ask ,as you say politics is everywhere

I can’t give hard and fast guidelines, but Mikes note about *political posts* is the only instruction we have had

Therefore it’s down to individual moderator discretion

Not what you want, but best I can do

Short answer, nothing remotely political anywhere on the forum
		
Click to expand...

How very 'politic' of you!  

Btw. From memory, it was 'Political Threads' rather than 'Political Posts' that Mike deemed no longer 'acceptable'. Obviously, there's signifgicant potential for individual posts to cross an equivalent boundary, but most posters should be able to get the message - and the 'Report' function and Mod discretion should surely be sufficient! It certainly seems to have been reasonable since Mike's announcement.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Need to define "political" then. Some things obviously impacted - criticising politicians for example. But can you critically discuss the covid rules? If not can you mention covid rules?  Not even how they impact amateur and professional golf? Can we even discuss the pandemic at all? That's just one example.

Politics are interwoven into our lives and society. Completely impossible to just say "no politics" and expect everyone to draw the line in the same place.
		
Click to expand...

The title of this thread is a bit of a giveaway.

Surely this one was to give forum members an opportunity to describe how they or their nearest and dearest had been directly or indirectly affected by the virus 

This thread was never intended to be a critique of the authorities and their handling of the situation. 

That role was undertaken by a separate thread started I believe by AmandaJR and which very quickly degenerated into a series of dogmatic arguments and expressions of political prejudices. 

Surely there is no shortage of political forums that those who wish to continue those arguments could visit.


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			The title of this thread is a bit of a giveaway.

Surely this one was to give forum members an opportunity to describe how they or their nearest and dearest had been directly or indirectly affected by the virus

This thread was never intended to be a critique of the authorities and their handling of the situation.

That role was undertaken by a separate thread started I believe by AmandaJR and which very quickly degenerated into a series of dogmatic arguments and expressions of political prejudices.

Surely there is no shortage of political forums that those who wish to continue those arguments could visit.
		
Click to expand...

You had a prejudices yourself, as I recall. It is naive to think that commenting on the state of things without touching, at least tangentially, on politics is feasible. 

So, in a real example, in your opinion, if my son's best friend is unable to get a Covid test because of the state of NHS Test and Trace, is commenting adversely on that situation political?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You had a prejudices yourself, as I recall. It is naive to think that commenting on the state of things without touching, at least tangentially, on politics is feasible.

So, in a real example, in your opinion, if my son's best friend is unable to get a Covid test because of the state of NHS Test and Trace, is commenting adversely on that situation political?
		
Click to expand...

No comment!

Or put another way,  not interested.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You had a prejudices yourself, as I recall. It is naive to think that commenting on the state of things without touching, at least tangentially, on politics is feasible.

So, in a real example, in your opinion, if my son's best friend is unable to get a Covid test because of the state of NHS Test and Trace, is commenting adversely on that situation political?
		
Click to expand...

Yea but no but


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 17, 2020)

Shouldn't we already be back in lockdown?


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You had a prejudices yourself, as I recall. It is naive to think that commenting on the state of things without touching, at least tangentially, on politics is feasible.

So, in a real example, in your opinion, if my son's best friend is unable to get a Covid test because of the state of NHS Test and Trace, is commenting adversely on that situation political?
		
Click to expand...

Potentially


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Shouldn't we already be back in lockdown?
View attachment 32392

Click to expand...

No


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

Free speech is alive and well then.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Shouldn't we already be back in lockdown?
View attachment 32392

Click to expand...

Not aimed at you Colchester

But isn’t this a perfect example of the problem, this is the Governments diagram, so therefore commenting on it and the right and wrongs of it is political.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Shouldn't we already be back in lockdown?
View attachment 32392

Click to expand...

Yes if the rules were being adhered to.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not aimed at you Colchester

But isn’t this a perfect example of the problem, this is the Governments diagram, so therefore commenting on it and the right and wrongs of it is political.
		
Click to expand...

Ah good point, I hadn't thought of that. It does seem that this whole not being political thing is a bit of a minefield.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 17, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Timing of the ban just as everything went into meltdown was surely coincidental... 

Click to expand...

To be fair one could argue that things have been in a bit of meltdown for a long time. 

I'm off course talking about the polar ice caps. Global warming bad.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Ah good point, I hadn't thought of that. It does seem that this whole not being political thing is a bit of a minefield.
		
Click to expand...

Welcome to my world


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Well done silh.
Might as well lock the thread now fragger, could save you some work later.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

Like the guy stopped by the BBC reporter, “Why are you getting tested”, “Well I’ve just returned from holiday in Spsin so I want to check I haven’t got Covid” “Have you got any systems” “No”

Covid test, the new British toilet roll.


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## DanFST (Sep 17, 2020)

Track and trace is useless. It's not political, it's a fact.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Track and trace is useless. It's not political, it's a fact.
		
Click to expand...

And while you have a percentage of the public giving bogus info it never will


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 17, 2020)

My wife after testing positive (weak apparently) has had two further negative tests. Another woman on the ward has had the same. That’s 2 out of 4 in the respiratory ward!  How good are these tests, how many of the 3000+ a day really have the virus? The whole thing is very frustrating.


----------



## Jamesbrown (Sep 17, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			My wife after testing positive (weak apparently) has had two further negative tests. Another woman on the ward has had the same. That’s 2 out of 4 in the respiratory ward!  How good are these tests, how many of the 3000+ a day really have the virus? The whole thing is very frustrating.
		
Click to expand...

My dogs needed testing for a non native disease and I was told to refuse a PCR test due to its reliability and ask for a specific serology test instead.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 17, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done silh.
Might as well lock the thread now fragger, could save you some work later. 

Click to expand...

No political comments. How hard is that to understand


----------



## Fade and Die (Sep 17, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			My dogs needed testing for a non native disease and I was told to refuse a PCR test due to its reliability and ask for a specific serology test instead.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks very relevant.


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## Billysboots (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Like the guy stopped by the BBC reporter, “Why are you getting tested”, “Well I’ve just returned from holiday in Spsin so I want to check I haven’t got Covid” “Have you got any systems” “No”

Covid test, the new British toilet roll.
		
Click to expand...

There are plenty of examples of rank stupidity out there.

A mate of mine dropped his four kids off at secondary school on Monday knowing his eldest had a mild headache. The school phoned him at lunchtime and told him to come and collect all four children.

When he arrived to collect the four kids, one still with a mild headache and the other three all fit as fleas, he was told none could return until they had a negative coronavirus test. Despite none displaying any symptoms at all.

He now has a dilemma - keep the children out of school or lie in order to use four test slots which are needed by those genuinely unwell.

All caused by months of scaremongering which has made so many, including school staff it seems, utterly paranoid.

What a mess.


----------



## HeftyHacker (Sep 17, 2020)

Got my positive test result through this morning. Only started feeling symptoms last night but the missus had shown a few a couple of  days earlier hence the test. 

Interestingly, none of our symptoms are listed in the "should you get a test" list. We got them as a girl my missus had been for a meal with on thursday tested positive. 3 other girls have subsequently done the same!

Really given me an appreciation as to how contagious this must really be. 

Also pretty difficult ringing up family and friends and telling them to watch out for symptoms and how quickly and how far it could spread.


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Potentially
		
Click to expand...

So the title should be "Coronavirus - how has it affected you, so long as you don't criticise anything that may be construed by sensitive people as being political".

And if England Golf bring out more guidelines written to reflect Govt advice, we can't criticise that either.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			So the title should be "Coronavirus - how has it affected you, so long as you don't criticise anything that may be construed by sensitive people as being political".

And if England Golf bring out more guidelines written to reflect Govt advice, we can't criticise that either.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure you’ll find any sensitive people on a tinternet forum


----------



## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Like the guy stopped by the BBC reporter, “Why are you getting tested”, “Well I’ve just returned from holiday in Spsin so I want to check I haven’t got Covid” “Have you got any systems” “No”

Covid test, the new British toilet roll.
		
Click to expand...

The guy may have been stupid, but the comment actually isn't that stupid. The biggest problem we have right now, .... OK, scratch that, one of the biggest problems is asymptomatic people who are not being tested but should be if at high risk (close contact of a case, possibly on return from high risk areas). Not doing so misses the people to whom asymptomatic cases transmit the virus. It is likely that up to half of all cases are asymptomatic.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The guy may have been stupid, but the comment actually isn't that stupid. The biggest problem we have right now, .... OK, scratch that, one of the biggest problems is asymptomatic people who are not being tested but should be if at high risk (close contact of a case, possibly on return from high risk areas). Not doing so misses the people to whom asymptomatic cases transmit the virus. It is likely that up to half of all cases are asymptomatic.
		
Click to expand...

Was reported today that 98 % were coming out as negative, is this a fault with the test or through self diagnosis or just plain panic. That, if correct seems to suggest that possibly that a symptomatic case is being overstated.

All very hard to figure with such a rise in actual cases.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			So the title should be "Coronavirus - how has it affected you, so long as you don't criticise anything that may be construed by sensitive people as being political".

And if England Golf bring out more guidelines written to reflect Govt advice, we can't criticise that either.
		
Click to expand...

Ethan, The Mods don’t make the rules, we just apply them, Mike doesn’t want political threads or comments and it’s his train set, 

So I’m afraid you are just going to have to just watch what you post


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## SaintHacker (Sep 17, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Shouldn't we already be back in lockdown?
View attachment 32392

Click to expand...

No because thats just a picture that someone has knocked up. This is the official one


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Was reported today that 98 % were coming out as negative, is this a fault with the test or through self diagnosis or just plain panic. That, if correct seems to suggest that possibly that a symptomatic case is being overstated.

All very hard to figure with such a rise in actual cases.
		
Click to expand...

Numbers, dear boy. Both statements can be true, 50% of all positive cases can be asymptomatic even if only 2% of a sample population test positive. But the idea of testing high risk cases is critical. People asked to self-isolate are by definition considered high risk. It is good news if we test them and find few cases, but finding those cases is still worthwhile.


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ethan, The Mods don’t make the rules, we just apply them, Mike doesn’t want political threads or comments and it’s his train set,

So I’m afraid you are just going to have to just watch what you post
		
Click to expand...

Well, I think some clarification is needed. If all comments on this thread must stop citing problems with testing, lockdown or anything else apart from saying someone has a cough or temperature, may as well lock this one too.


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## Mudball (Sep 17, 2020)

Unbelievably heard Baroness Dido say that no one predicted the rise in cases. It was modelled by Sage...  Westminster’s Analytics team needs a good modeller. Hopefully we have enough PPE .. just saying


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 17, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think as long as you avoid criticizing the current government you'll be fine. 

Click to expand...

That's a prime example of twisting the truth. It's you who has started bringing in the politics under the guise of mentioning the Daily Mail. You and Ethan go on from there.
The only "other side " input has at that time was post 8785. Until then your political "opponents" were keeping to the ban on political.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's a prime example of twisting the truth. It's you who has started bringing in the politics under the guise of mentioning the Daily Mail. You and Ethan go on from there.
The only "other side " input has at that time was post 8785. Until then your political "opponents" were keeping to the ban on political.
		
Click to expand...

Every comment, every complaint about test and trace, every post mentioning kids with symptons or being off school etc has a political angle to it, attempting to put it on one or two posters or a particular post is ridiculous.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Sep 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The guy may have been stupid, but the comment actually isn't that stupid. The biggest problem we have right now, .... OK, scratch that, one of the biggest problems is asymptomatic people who are not being tested but should be if at high risk (close contact of a case, possibly on return from high risk areas). Not doing so misses the people to whom asymptomatic cases transmit the virus. It is likely that up to half of all cases are asymptomatic.
		
Click to expand...

If half of all cases are asymptomatic, how do you know if you've been within close contact of a case?  If half of the cases don't know they are cases then we've got no chance.

And if that many cases don't know they have been cases, how far has this actually spread...?


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## williamalex1 (Sep 17, 2020)

Why is it that elderly people that contract the virus are in more danger than younger folks ?.   Could it have anything to do with them all being automatically  inoculated against other flu viruses year after year


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## SocketRocket (Sep 17, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Why is it that elderly people that contract the virus are in more danger than younger folks ?.   Could it have anything to do with them all being automatically  inoculated against other flu viruses year after year 

Click to expand...

No, its because they are old and their immune system is worn out.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, its because they are old and their immune system is worn out.
		
Click to expand...

If you say so kiddo , .


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## DanFST (Sep 18, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			If you say so kiddo , .
		
Click to expand...

Unsure if this is sarcasm......

Older people produce less t cells and less white blood cells.


----------



## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			If you say so kiddo , .
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes I do Kiddo. How has your general health been the last decade.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Unsure if this is sarcasm......

Older people produce less t cells and less white blood cells.
		
Click to expand...

I thought SR was an older person


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## SocketRocket (Sep 18, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			I thought SR was an older person 

Click to expand...

I am , probably younger than you but in better shape


----------



## williamalex1 (Sep 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I am , probably younger than you but in better shape 

Click to expand...

So is our town clock .
But semi seriously, how many drugs are being regularly prescribed to us old codgers for the sake of it and maybe getting a few more years in an old folks home , or is it just money in the drug company's pockets


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If half of all cases are asymptomatic, how do you know if you've been within close contact of a case?  If half of the cases don't know they are cases then we've got no chance.

And if that many cases don't know they have been cases, how far has this actually spread...?
		
Click to expand...

The way it should work is someone tests positive, they ID all close contacts, all of those are tested, and those in that group who test positive whether symptomatic or not have further contact tracing, and so on until no further cases are identified. 

Many cases don't know they are asymptomatic spreaders, and most of these are young, so have been unwittingly spreading it around.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done silh.
Might as well lock the thread now fragger, could save you some work later. 

Click to expand...

I simply stated a fact - advice to the public coming from a minister.  I guess I can mention that I hear that it is believed Hancock and/or a johnson are considering imposing a 2 week ‘national lockdown’ to happen next month in an attempt to stamp on transmission.  Bit scary if they think it’s heading to levels requiring such a measure.  If that included no travel of any distance in the UK that likely to knacker a holiday in the Lakes I have 3rd week October.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The way it should work is someone tests positive, they ID all close contacts, all of those are tested, and those in that group who test positive whether symptomatic or not have further contact tracing, and so on until no further cases are identified.
.
		
Click to expand...

But that doesn't work if you get tested on day 5 after being in contact, but only incubate until say day 10. Hence the need for a 14 day isolation as a test on its own isn't a reliable indicator if you aren't showing symptoms.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If that included no travel of any distance in the UK that likely to knacker a holiday in the Lakes I have 3rd week October.
		
Click to expand...

It could also knacker a 'holiday' in ICU


----------



## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Why is it that elderly people that contract the virus are in more danger than younger folks ?.   Could it have anything to do with them all being automatically  inoculated against other flu viruses year after year 

Click to expand...

No, more likely that their responses to various aspects of infection are less resistant than younger people, less lung, liver, kidney, heart reserve. This is worse with specific health problems like diabetes, hypertension, kidney failure etc. Much easier to tip into failure.


SaintHacker said:



			But that doesn't work if you get tested on day 5 after being in contact, but only incubate until say day 10. Hence the need for a 14 day isolation as a test on its own isn't a reliable indicator if you aren't showing symptoms.
		
Click to expand...

The way that the oh so wonderful, impossible to criticise it for any reason Test and Trace works, by the time the index case is tested, contacts identified and traced, contacts actually get an appointment, travel from Watford up to Inverness to have the test, it'll be Day 7 at least, and the vast majority of those who test positive will do so by then.

So what is your idea to chase down the asymptomatics, then?


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Sep 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Every comment, every complaint about test and trace, every post mentioning kids with symptons or being off school etc has a political angle to it, attempting to put it on one or two posters or a particular post is ridiculous.
		
Click to expand...

No. not ridiculous at all. Everyone was keeping to the ruling until Hacker made his post 8765. Even then, there was no riposte until Old  Skier asked re the politics coming in.
Then it got  blatant.
IMO, best  if Phil locks this thread now.


----------



## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No. not ridiculous at all. Everyone was keeping to the ruling until Hacker made his post 8765. Even then, there was no riposte until Old  Skier asked re the politics coming in.
Then it got  blatant.
IMO, best  if Phil locks this thread now.
		
Click to expand...

People can put it on me if they like, and I don't care if people think that I have strong political views on this. I do. I wanted this Govt to get this right because many of our lives and those of family and friends depend on it, not to mention jobs and economic futures.

But I have explained why my background in public health means that I think the system should be different, what should have happened instead, and why all these messages were being given by respected scientists for some time.

This isn't a theoretical scientific debate. There is already a large pile of bodies and it is going to get bigger if something doesn't change pronto.


----------



## SaintHacker (Sep 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, more likely that their responses to various aspects of infection are less resistant than younger people, less lung, liver, kidney, heart reserve. This is worse with specific health problems like diabetes, hypertension, kidney failure etc. Much easier to tip into failure.


The way that the oh so wonderful, impossible to criticise it for any reason Test and Trace works, by the time the index case is tested, contacts identified and traced, contacts actually get an appointment, travel from Watford up to Inverness to have the test, it'll be Day 7 at least, and the vast majority of those who test positive will do so by then.

So what is your idea to chase down the asymptomatics, then?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure why you're getting snarky with me, it appears we are basically agreeing? No matter which system you use you can't stop asymptomatics spreading it.
IMO without a vaccine we can't stop this thing, only slow it.
I'll leave it there.


----------



## Jamesbrown (Sep 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			People can put it on me if they like, and I don't care if people think that I have strong political views on this. I do. I wanted this Govt to get this right because many of outlives and those of family and friends depend on it, not to mention jobs and economic futures.

But I have explained why my background in public health means that I think the system should be different, what should have happened instead, and why all these messages were being given by respected scientists for some time.

This isn't a theoretical scientific debate. There is already a large pile of bodies and it is going to get bigger if something doesn't change pronto.
		
Click to expand...

You can’t help yourself can you? 

But yes, I agree they’ve messed up big time. Shouldn’t of gone on as long as this and they seem hell bent on dragging it out longer.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Sep 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The way it should work is someone tests positive, they ID all close contacts, all of those are tested, and those in that group who test positive whether symptomatic or not have further contact tracing, and so on until no further cases are identified.

Many cases don't know they are asymptomatic spreaders, and most of these are young, so have been unwittingly spreading it around.
		
Click to expand...

Not just the young; Mrs BiM and I have rigidly followed the instructions. Mrs BiM had a blood test for an upcoming op and has the antibodies so has had it, it’s not unreasonable given our circumstances to assume I’ve had it. Both asymptomatic. So we have potentially spreading it despite following the guidelines which reduce, not prevent transmission as I understand it. 

We simply haven’t got a clue how far this virus has spread is my belief, based on the anecdotal evidence I’m aware of and personal circumstances.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No. not ridiculous at all. Everyone was keeping to the ruling until Hacker made his post 8765. Even then, there was no riposte until Old  Skier asked re the politics coming in.
Then it got  blatant.
IMO, best  if Phil locks this thread now.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you go back and read the posts prior to 8765 as there are plenty which could be read with a political slant, and, imo, that’s the issue, as previously said, “you should be able to discuss politics without it being political” you seem to have decided otherwise based on the poster.


----------



## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Not sure why you're getting snarky with me, it appears we are basically agreeing? No matter which system you use you can't stop asymptomatics spreading it.
IMO without a vaccine we can't stop this thing, only slow it.
I'll leave it there.
		
Click to expand...

Snarky? Not at all. You made a comment about repeated flu vaccine that I disagree with and commented on, fairly politely in my opinion. No need to take the hump.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			It could also knacker a 'holiday' in ICU

Click to expand...

Not much of a holiday - and I wasn’t complaining btw..


----------



## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not just the young; Mrs BiM and I have rigidly followed the instructions. Mrs BiM had a blood test for an upcoming op and has the antibodies so has had it, it’s not unreasonable given our circumstances to assume I’ve had it. Both asymptomatic. So we have potentially spreading it despite following the guidelines which reduce, not prevent transmission as I understand it.

We simply haven’t got a clue how far this virus has spread is my belief, based on the anecdotal evidence I’m aware of and personal circumstances.
		
Click to expand...

The young are more likely to be asymptomatic, lots of evidence for this, but I didn't say it was exclusive. 

There is decent prevalence data for people who test positive for virus, or have antibodies. There is less evidence for, although clearly a decent number of people around, who have T-cell activation which confers full or partial immunity.


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## Papas1982 (Sep 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so...the minister does not deny that they are planning a two week ‘circuit break’ in October - has the panic buying started 🙁
		
Click to expand...

Not quite that clear cut. He refused to rule it out if it was required. 
That's a world away from denying its their actual plan.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 18, 2020)

Over 1,000,000 folk have joined the new Scots Test and Track app in just over a week.
Seems to be working well.


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## DCB (Sep 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Over 1,000,000 folk have joined the new Scots Test and Track app in just over a week.
Seems to be working well.
		
Click to expand...

It needs to be working well  other wise we are going to be in a right pickle 

And , yes, I did sign up on day one


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## road2ruin (Sep 18, 2020)

Surely the 2 week circuit break is a horse that has already bolted now isn't it? The virus is endemic within society so the only way to properly get rid would be a military style lockdown for a period that ensures the virus dies out. A 2 week lockdown just means the cases drop but then we come out of this period and we start again. It will achieve nothing that I can see bar extending the period.


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## drdel (Sep 18, 2020)

When I started this thread I thought we might share personal experiences.

Why do we have to bicker? Surely there is no need to try and beat each other up with one-upmanship claims and "I know more than you" assertions!

The virus is serious with wide ranging effects for society that will be evident for years to come.

It is a pity that, at a time when major issues like COVID19 and Brexut are in the news that these are barred subjects but that's the ruling and we should respect and live with it.


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## GB72 (Sep 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			When I started this thread I thought we might share personal experiences.

Why do we have to bicker? Surely there is no need to try and beat each other up with one-upmanship claims and "I know more than you" assertions!

The virus is serious with wide ranging effects for society that will be evident for years to come.

It is a pity that, at a time when major issues like COVID19 and Brexut are in the news that these are barred subjects but that's the ruling and we should respect and live with it.
		
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Agreed, in the early days this was really helpful, people were sharing experiences of an almost unheralded time and that helped me understand and cope and realise that what i was feeling was not unique. We were getting feedback from those in other countries (Hobbit especially) that gave a picture of the pandemic that was not on the news. It was a great thread.


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## Mudball (Sep 18, 2020)

A while ago, i had a question that if Outsourcing was a problem in this case.  I dont know the answer.  Guardian ran an article on this 

 The system that is labelled “NHS test and trace” has hardly anything to do with the NHS. Each fragment of this system is contracted out to big private companies that often turn to subcontractors. So Deloitte handles the huge Lighthouse Labs that can’t get through the tests, while Serco oversees the contact-tracing system that regularly misses government targets.

Still, failure pays: Serco’s initial fee for running tracing was £108m. Then there are the consultants buzzing around this cash cow. Accenture pocketed more than £850,000 for 10 weeks’ work on the contact-tracing app – the one that still hasn’t been launched. McKinsey scooped £560,000 for six weeks’ work creating the “vision, purpose and narrative” of a new public health authority. 

Source:  https://www.theguardian.com/comment...t-and-trace-public-sector-boris-johnson-covid


While i am at the Guardian, came across this one..  I can understand the red rags calling ministers names, but did not expect a broadsheet to call things like Door Matt Hancock and Typhoid Dido.  Are all gloves off?  i wonder what the Telegraph makes of the T&T fiasco.. 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-dido-star-in-a-cabaret-of-covid-cluelessness


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## Mudball (Sep 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			When I started this thread I thought we might share personal experiences.

Why do we have to bicker? Surely there is no need to try and beat each other up with one-upmanship claims and "I know more than you" assertions!

The virus is serious with wide ranging effects for society that will be evident for years to come.

It is a pity that, at a time when major issues like COVID19 and Brexut are in the news that these are barred subjects but that's the ruling and we should respect and live with it.
		
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Agree... Currently at the wrong end of the Testing circuit and this was a great thread.  Moving the politics & name calling to another thread was a master stroke as it kept the thread clean... These issues are inter-related and no one knows the full extent of what is happening.  Our view is a reflection of the side of the moon we are seeing.  unfortunately, no one wants to know that the moon has a dark side...


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 18, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Surely the 2 week circuit break is a horse that has already bolted now isn't it? The virus is endemic within society so the only way to properly get rid would be a military style lockdown for a period that ensures the virus dies out. A 2 week lockdown just means the cases drop but then we come out of this period and we start again. It will achieve nothing that I can see bar extending the period.
		
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Especially if one member of a household was asymptomatic but on day 10 of the two week lockdown passed it on to another household member who also became asymptomatic. There's the danger that everyone would come out of the lockdown thinking it was over and then we'd see another spike. And that's without anyone bringing it in to the country on flights.


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## DRW (Sep 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is there anywhere you can view data on hospitalisation of patients by date? It seems pretty pointless to try to compare current cases against what we saw during the first wave as the total number of tests is far higher so there will be more positive test results. There must have been a lot a asymptomatic people that are being picked up now that weren't picked up earlier in the year. I would be interested in seeing a graph of total numbers in hospital as that would seem to be a far better way to compare what is happening now with what happened previously.
		
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Hi,

You can see it on this link :-

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/healthcare

If you click on the three 'DATA' links on the above, it gives details for each day.

Think I also remember somewhere that you can get the data for each hospital as well, but as you haven't asked for that I wont bother having a look for it.

All data available is pointing to cases increasing (from triage/111/999 data to testing(ignoring possible false positives with increased testing & testing in hot areas) to Zoe data to hospitalisations). There can be no dispute about the increase, currently no where near March time and the big questions is will this wave increase and naturally drop back down, like in Sweden, parts of USA and what was already happening in some of the local lockdown areas(before they announced the local lockdowns!).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2020)

drdel said:



			When I started this thread I thought we might share personal experiences.

Why do we have to bicker? Surely there is no need to try and beat each other up with one-upmanship claims and "I know more than you" assertions!

The virus is serious with wide ranging effects for society that will be evident for years to come.

It is a pity that, at a time when major issues like COVID19 and Brexut are in the news that these are barred subjects but that's the ruling and we should respect and live with it.
		
Click to expand...

It’s worth, if you have time, actually going back and reading the first weeks worth of posts, quite enlightening what has happened in 6 months and how our attitudes have changed.

On another note and not aimed at anyone in particular, but the political angle was introduced on day one of the thread.


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## Mudball (Sep 18, 2020)

Looking at the bright side... while we get spin, atleast we don’t have deniers and alternate truth 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1306408278755164160


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Surely the 2 week circuit break is a horse that has already bolted now isn't it? The virus is endemic within society so the only way to properly get rid would be a military style lockdown for a period that ensures the virus dies out. A 2 week lockdown just means the cases drop but then we come out of this period and we start again. It will achieve nothing that I can see bar extending the period.
		
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It would seem to be a tactic aimed at delivering the minister's indicated strategy of just trying to keep the level of infection in the community down until a vaccine comes along.  We just apply then relax - then weeks or months later the tactic is repeated. 

Would be a bit like driving without braking, until our speed starts to increase too quickly and we end up going too fast,  and then we firmly apply the brakes - we slow the car down to a speed we are comfortable with - then take foot off brake and on we go until we next have to apply the brake.


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## robinthehood (Sep 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s worth, if you have time, actually going back and reading the first weeks worth of posts, quite enlightening what has happened in 6 months and how our attitudes have changed.

On another note and not aimed at anyone in particular, but the political angle was introduced on day one of the thread.
		
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When I look at the political threads, it's the same person over and over again being antagonistic and insulting to others . Surely it would've made sense to deal with that rather than the sledgehammer approach.


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## Beezerk (Sep 18, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			When I look at the political threads, it's the same person over and over again being antagonistic and insulting to others . Surely it would've made sense to deal with that rather than the sledgehammer approach.
		
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That's the thing, they soon get hijacked by the minority who jump down the throats of those who dare have a different viewpoint. It makes you scared to post as you get a barrage of abuse if you stray offline with their comments.
Gone is sensible discussion on here at times.


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## robinthehood (Sep 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			That's the thing, they soon get hijacked by the minority who jump down the throats of those who dare have a different viewpoint. It makes you scared to post as you get a barrage of abuse if you stray offline with their comments.
Gone is sensible discussion on here at times.
		
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Yeah its worse for it,

In corona news though.. we are being encouraged to go back to the office, I went in yesterday. All very strange and capacity will only be about 30% with all the SD measures.
Seems to be a fair few who think the mask rule on trains doesnt apply to them too.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 18, 2020)

DCB said:



			It needs to be working well  other wise we are going to be in a right pickle

And , yes, I did sign up on day one 

Click to expand...

Yes my whole family did as well.......ps should have read 'test & protect'.


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## brendy (Sep 18, 2020)

We have removed a few more posts straying into political territory, can we stick to normal doom and gloom or positive viewpoints please and not lower ourselves to political opinion in the thread.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 18, 2020)

Was due to be off on A/L today but called into a briefing by the CEO on our current strategy and our ICU escalation plans as theatres have been ring fenced at this time to continue working as close to capacity. Some problems raised and plans looking to be adjusted Seems a robust plan in principle but like the start of the pandemic we won't know until it hots again properly. On the plus side off home now to pick up the golf stuff and an afternoon at the club (and maybe a fry up for lunch)


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had a couple of big fillings done pre-lockdown and they have been giving me grief ever since.

Again pre-lockdown the dentist suggested it would settle down but if not root canal might be the way forward.

Since then I have suffered intermittently with it. It’s mostly tolerable but I can’t chew anything other than soft food with that side of my mouth and sometimes the serious pain recurs. Also, my teeth no longer seem to fit properly - i think the filled ones are now too big and that’s quite awkward and annoying.

Anyway, I finally cracked and called the dentist and, as expected, they are still not allowed to do NHS treatment. However, they can do it privately!

That makes no sense to me - is it safer because I’m paying? Insurance differences maybe?

I’m not pleased about having to pay obviously, but is it fair that, as someone who can afford it, I can get treatment while others can’t?
		
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My dentist told me that due to the extra costs involved at the minute with PPE etc they aren't doing NHS work apart from emergency extractions. If you pay to have it done privately then you are also paying for these additional costs as part of your treatment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			When I look at the political threads, it's the same person over and over again being antagonistic and insulting to others . Surely it would've made sense to deal with that rather than the sledgehammer approach.
		
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Wrong to single out one person, there’s a few on here (myself included) who have strayed over the line and some others who are not as innocent as they like to portray.


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Wrong to single out one person, there’s a few on here (myself included) who have strayed over the line and some others who are not as innocent as they like to portray.
		
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And there are a few (not you) who are now trying to pretend they frown at all the political stuff when they were waist deep in it at the time.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's a prime example of twisting the truth. It's you who has started bringing in the politics under the guise of mentioning the Daily Mail. You and Ethan go on from there.
The only "other side " input has at that time was post 8785. Until then your political "opponents" were keeping to the ban on political.
		
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It was a comment on a paper that was referring to the deficiencies of the track and trace scheme when yo would not expect them to do such a thing.  That track and trace system that is widely acknowledged to bethe major thing that we need to get right in order to be able to function vaguely as a society and economy. Sorry if that is too 'political' for you.

As for political opponents then who are they?  Haven't voted Labour for many years so is my political opponent pauldj42 then?  The mild mannered socialist do gooder wanting a fairer society for all?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			And there are a few (not you) who are now trying to pretend they frown at all the political stuff when they were waist deep in it at the time.
		
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I miss it, because there is without doubt some very educational information shared from all sides of the political spectrum.


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## Dan2501 (Sep 18, 2020)

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...rth-west-midlands-and-west-yorkshire-12074816

New restrictions being introduced from Tuesday it seems


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 18, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Surely the 2 week circuit break is a horse that has already bolted now isn't it? The virus is endemic within society so the only way to properly get rid would be a military style lockdown for a period that ensures the virus dies out. A 2 week lockdown just means the cases drop but then we come out of this period and we start again. It will achieve nothing that I can see bar extending the period.
		
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Even if we did this, would it not have to be a world wide lockdown; no good us locking down if the moment we open the borders again to countries that haven't do that, surely we welcome the virus back?


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## GB72 (Sep 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Even if we did this, would it not have to be a world wide lockdown; no good us locking down if the moment we open the borders again to countries that haven't do that, surely we welcome the virus back?
		
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This is where I am stuck. Not advocating one side or the other and certainly not advocating a free for all but it would appear that however tight you lock down, whatever restrictions you put in place, the virus finds a way back. I am looking at other countries more than the UK here where it was believed to have been wiped out. I really hate to admit it but I cannot see any way forward aside from focusing on dealing with the cases when people are infected rather than trying to stop the spread. I would be really glad if someone could point out the workable alternative (pre any vaccine) but I just cannot see a longer term solution that would work.


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## Mudball (Sep 18, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Even if we did this, would it not have to be a world wide lockdown; no good us locking down if the moment we open the borders again to countries that haven't do that, surely we welcome the virus back?
		
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You are right... That is why we have the air corridor.  if your healthy you can come in, else no.   Some countries (incl UK) have a 14 day home quarantine, some (parts of India) have institutional quarantine, some required a 'fit to fly' certificate.   In India you cannot fly within India without showing the Track & Trace app along with your boarding card.   Some like NZ wont allow you in period.   So all of these are possible.

However, the min we start doing this, people start complaining that they cant go to holidays/skiing etc. UK home quarantine is joke - i know someone who flew from a hotspot.  She had to submit all her details. She had to home quarantine.   The number of times the Track & Trace folks called on checking in with her... Zero.   

Compared to that, in Kerala, India (which was hailed as a beacon of track & trace), someone will visit you everyday to check if you are quarantining. The local council will make arrangements for food/supplies if you cant.  If they police see you loitering outside, they will beat you up too.


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## road2ruin (Sep 18, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is where I am stuck. Not advocating one side or the other and certainly not advocating a free for all but it would appear that however tight you lock down, whatever restrictions you put in place, the virus finds a way back. I am looking at other countries more than the UK here where it was believed to have been wiped out. I really hate to admit it but I cannot see any way forward aside from focusing on dealing with the cases when people are infected rather than trying to stop the spread. I would be really glad if someone could point out the workable alternative (pre any vaccine) but I just cannot see a longer term solution that would work.
		
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This is the discussion that we had in the office earlier on today. 

We came to the conclusion that, terms of getting rid of the virus the only way (as completely impractical as it is) would be to have a worldwide lockdown for a month. All those calling for a strict UK lockdown seem to be missing that even if we did this for a month as soon as people begin travelling in and out of the country it just returns and we go through the entire process again. 

The two week lockdown suppresses the virus in certain areas however it's not practical to continually do this especially as we don't know when (or even if) a suitable vaccine will be available. You can't keep locking down areas as all it's doing is prolonging the entire process as I said earlier.


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

Mudball said:



			You are right... That is why we have the air corridor.  if your healthy you can come in, else no.   Some countries (incl UK) have a 14 day home quarantine, some (parts of India) have institutional quarantine, some required a 'fit to fly' certificate.   In India you cannot fly within India without showing the Track & Trace app along with your boarding card.   Some like NZ wont allow you in period.   So all of these are possible.

However, the min we start doing this, people start complaining that they cant go to holidays/skiing etc. UK home quarantine is joke - i know someone who flew from a hotspot.  She had to submit all her details. She had to home quarantine.   The number of times the Track & Trace folks called on checking in with her... Zero.  

Compared to that, in Kerala, India (which was hailed as a beacon of track & trace), someone will visit you everyday to check if you are quarantining. The local council will make arrangements for food/supplies if you cant.  If they police see you loitering outside, they will beat you up too. 

Click to expand...

But is is not really possible to verify that someone is healthy - that is the whole point of quarantine. Some airlines are asking for a negative Covid test from within the last week. Waste of time. I agree home quarantine is useless unless enforced. In Oz, you have to spend 2 weeks in a Govt approved hotel and literally not leave the room. 

There was a moment when the UK could have fundamentally suppressed the virus's arrival in the country, but that would have meant proper quarantine on those people coming into the country, including coming back from ski holidays in Feb and March. If you reduce the amount of virus that gets in then onward transmission is much more controllable.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 18, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			So is our town clock .
But semi seriously, how many drugs are being regularly prescribed to us old codgers for the sake of it *and maybe getting a few more years in an old folks home *, or is it just money in the drug company's pockets
		
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This bit reminds me of the old Bob Hope gag.....in the discussion about the merits or otherwise of getting old. So, someone, usually young, asks
"Who wants to live to be a hundred ?"

Hope....."Someone who's ninety nine."😀


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## DanFST (Sep 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had a couple of big fillings done pre-lockdown and they have been giving me grief ever since.

Again pre-lockdown the dentist suggested it would settle down but if not root canal might be the way forward.

Since then I have suffered intermittently with it. It’s mostly tolerable but I can’t chew anything other than soft food with that side of my mouth and sometimes the serious pain recurs. Also, my teeth no longer seem to fit properly - i think the filled ones are now too big and that’s quite awkward and annoying.

Anyway, I finally cracked and called the dentist and, as expected, they are still not allowed to do NHS treatment. However, they can do it privately!

That makes no sense to me - is it safer because I’m paying? Insurance differences maybe?

I’m not pleased about having to pay obviously, but is it fair that, as someone who can afford it, I can get treatment while others can’t?
		
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I feel you, one of my best friends is my dentist. 

He does NHS and private. But the system won't let him do my fillings on the NHS as normal! There's no way around it for the dentists unfortunately.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I had a couple of big fillings done pre-lockdown and they have been giving me grief ever since.

Again pre-lockdown the dentist suggested it would settle down but if not root canal might be the way forward.

Since then I have suffered intermittently with it. It’s mostly tolerable but I can’t chew anything other than soft food with that side of my mouth and sometimes the serious pain recurs. Also, my teeth no longer seem to fit properly - i think the filled ones are now too big and that’s quite awkward and annoying.

Anyway, I finally cracked and called the dentist and, as expected, they are still not allowed to do NHS treatment. However, they can do it privately!

That makes no sense to me - is it safer because I’m paying? Insurance differences maybe?

I’m not pleased about having to pay obviously, but is it fair that, as someone who can afford it, I can get treatment while others can’t?
		
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I hadn't realised they weren't doing NHS work as I pay privately. I broke a tooth just into lockdown and finally got to see my dentist when they re-opened. Still had to pay the monthly fees which seemed a bit off but perhaps, in hindsight, it's not! I was due to have the final treatment a month ago and he had to self isolate having been home to Portugal - grrrr. Appointment on Wed which has been confirmed today so will hopefully go ahead.

I hate covid and all the blasted thing counts for. Who knows how long golf and gyms and something like normal life are going to continue as the R Rate continues to increase.


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## Mudball (Sep 18, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I feel you, one of my best friends is my dentist. 

He does NHS and private. But the system won't let him do my fillings on the NHS as normal! There's no way around it for the dentists unfortunately.
		
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As I understand, Govt has been on the path to kill off nhs dental for a few years now. Dentist hardly make money on nhs work.  Covid was the final push to disincentivise it. The cost of PPE is passed on to us. We are likely to go down the American way wherein dental insurance is a big ticket item


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## Beedee (Sep 18, 2020)

I take it that the 14 day quarantine period doesn't apply if you're a millionaire footballer who plays more golf than football.  Or that social distancing doesn't apply if your an idiot who worships him?


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

Beedee said:



			I take it that the 14 day quarantine period doesn't apply if you're a millionaire footballer who plays more golf than football.  Or that social distancing doesn't apply if your an idiot who worships him?
		
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If you are an elite sports player on an official tour, no quarantine is needed. If you go solo on holiday, quarantine. One of the Man U players fell foul of this recently.


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## Crazyface (Sep 18, 2020)

I'm sick to the back teeth with it all. Putting restrictions back in place is a waste of time and effort. Just let everyone get on with their lives.

 If your worried, stay at home or wear a mask. If you are fed up with it all, do whatever you like. That's what the Government should now be saying.


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## chrisd (Sep 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm sick to the back teeth with it all. Putting restrictions back in place is a waste of time and effort. Just let everyone get on with their lives.

If your worried, stay at home or wear a mask. If you are fed up with it all, do whatever you like. That's what the Government should now be saying.
		
Click to expand...

What a great plan - just let 500,000 people die, couldn't be easier 👍


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## Crazyface (Sep 18, 2020)

Beedee said:



			I take it that the 14 day quarantine period doesn't apply if you're a millionaire footballer who plays more golf than football.  Or that social distancing doesn't apply if your an idiot who worships him?
		
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Any sport that involves a load of money. It's all cobblers. Money money money. That's all everything is about. If every country has this Covid,  and it's costing a fortune to do the stuff they are doing, who is paying for it all??????????????????????


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## Crazyface (Sep 18, 2020)

chrisd said:



			What a great plan - just let 500,000 people die, couldn't be easier 👍
		
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And how many die from other stuff per year? Come on now get a grip.


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## Crazyface (Sep 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Thankfully the government isn't that sociopathic. We'd all have more freedom if we all stuck to the rules but sadly that seems too much for some.
		
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And as usual those that have stuck to the rules are punished along with the ones who haven't followed the rules. It was all going to be impossible to police it, so we should have just got on with our lives.


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## chrisd (Sep 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			And how many die from other stuff per year? Come on now get a grip.
		
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So, it really doesnt matter how many die so long as you aren't inconvenienced mmmmmmm ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 18, 2020)

ON the plus side we are introducing a new testing lab in our Bracknell Healthspace so if the worse happens and I need a test I shouldn't get sent to Plymouth or god knows where https://www.bracknellnews.co.uk/new...e-new-coronavirus-testing-facility-bracknell/


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 18, 2020)

Look I cannot be any clearer
Stop talking about politics
An infraction has been issued 😡


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 18, 2020)

For pity sake - I get the difficulty - but how the heck can we discuss our confidence in what we are being asked to do if we cannot talk about how we get our information and who tells us what to do.  

Anyway - had enough.  I'm out.


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## Foxholer (Sep 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I'm sick to the back teeth with it all. Putting restrictions back in place is a waste of time and effort. Just let everyone get on with their lives.

If your worried, stay at home or wear a mask. If you are fed up with it all, do whatever you like. That's what the Government should now be saying.
		
Click to expand...

It's attitudes like this that will continue to create chaos in every aspect of our lives!

This issue is going to go on for a long time and will only be resolved once a vaccine is freely available - as i predicted 6+ months ago! Apathy and boredom are the greatest threat to the overall population's likelihood of infection - the recent spikes demonstrate this imo - and this is likely to increase (hopefully manageably) with the return of schools.

Staying at home might be appropriate for those 'at risk', but doing 'whatever you like' is totally irresponsible imo!


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## Foxholer (Sep 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			ON the plus side we are introducing a new testing lab in our Bracknell Healthspace so if the worse happens and I need a test I shouldn't get sent to Plymouth or god knows where https://www.bracknellnews.co.uk/new...e-new-coronavirus-testing-facility-bracknell/

Click to expand...

If Plymouth was 'the nearest' testing centre previously, that's a horrendous 'admission'! There should be a testing centre/facilities ay EVERY hospital by now!


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## DanFST (Sep 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			And how many die from other stuff per year? Come on now get a grip.
		
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Did you go on holiday in March/April in the end?


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## Beezerk (Sep 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway - had enough.  I'm out.
		
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Pops champagne 🍾😂


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## pauljames87 (Sep 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For pity sake - I get the difficulty - but how the heck can we discuss our confidence in what we are being asked to do if we cannot talk about how we get our information and who tells us what to do. 

Anyway - had enough.  I'm out.
		
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Have to admit I'm missing the chats..even with the disagreements. I have had to go back to an old forum that's a bit doom and gloom but least can see how others are viewing the government, the rules etc 

Shame we don't just discuss anymore but clearly we went to far


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			And as usual those that have stuck to the rules are punished along with the ones who haven't followed the rules. It was all going to be impossible to police it, so we should have just got on with our lives.
		
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Neither of those statements is true. Those who failed to social distance and observe Covid hygiene are more likely to contract the virus and all that goes with it. Complete public compliance is not needed to make a major difference, although clearly the more the better. And it ultimately has to be policed by social responsibility. Some people have that, others don't. You need to decide which group you fall in to.


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## Old Skier (Sep 18, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			If Plymouth was 'the nearest' testing centre previously, that's a horrendous 'admission'! There should be a testing centre/facilities ay EVERY hospital by now!
		
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We have just had a testing centre open up for non NHS/Careworkers in North Devon, our cases have moved from 24 to 4, hopefully it will continue on the downward trend.

Hospital had its own facilities for staff and patients going for treatment.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 18, 2020)

Since last week this has been our golf club's advice. Seems all wrong to me and I still wear a mask in the clubhouse. Ok so I've only been in once but the bar staff said "you don't need a mask" as if to suggest I should remove it. I chose to keep it on until seated and eating.
_
Finally following clarification from our local Environmental Health Officer, it is now confirmed that face coverings do not have to be worn if you are entering the Clubhouse and going straight to the bar or dining area. Face coverings should be worn please in the locker & competitions room and anywhere else in the Club where social distancing is difficult. There some health exceptions and for children under 11.    _


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## Old Skier (Sep 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Since last week this has been our golf club's advice. Seems all wrong to me and I still wear a mask in the clubhouse. Ok so I've only been in once but the bar staff said "you don't need a mask" as if to suggest I should remove it. I chose to keep it on until seated and eating.

_Finally following clarification from our local Environmental Health Officer, it is now confirmed that face coverings do not have to be worn if you are entering the Clubhouse and going straight to the bar or dining area. Face coverings should be worn please in the locker & competitions room and anywhere else in the Club where social distancing is difficult. There some health exceptions and for children under 11.    _

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Looks very similar to what has come from EG


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## AmandaJR (Sep 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Looks very similar to what has come from EG
		
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I don't understand why. Is it the same in pubs and restaurants etc?


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## Foxholer (Sep 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			...Ok so I've only been in once but the bar staff said "you don't need a mask" *as if to suggest I should remove it*. I chose to keep it on until seated and eating.
		
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A wrong, but understandable, assumption! And, likely, a good decision by you too.


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## Hobbit (Sep 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Since last week this has been our golf club's advice. Seems all wrong to me and I still wear a mask in the clubhouse. Ok so I've only been in once but the bar staff said "you don't need a mask" as if to suggest I should remove it. I chose to keep it on until seated and eating.

_Finally following clarification from our local Environmental Health Officer, it is now confirmed that face coverings do not have to be worn if you are entering the Clubhouse and going straight to the bar or dining area. Face coverings should be worn please in the locker & competitions room and anywhere else in the Club where social distancing is difficult. There some health exceptions and for children under 11.    _

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Over here in Spain, a mask is required once you're outside your front door/gate. You can take it off once you're sat at a table in a bar or restaurant but it must go back on once you leave the table, even if its just to go to the loo. 

Masks can be removed when playing a sport but there are restrictions on the number of sportsmen/women who can take part. Obviously, all 'fixed' team numbers, e.g. eleven-a-side football, are still the 'fixed' number but something like a bowls green will see a max of 65% of capacity. Spectators are also restricted to a max of 65% capacity whilst still maintaining social distancing. If social distancing can't be maintained, capacity is reduced to 25%.

Typically of Spain, you will see the police out and about, and you will be fined if you're not following the rules. We see the police at least two out of the three days we bowl - usually its just a drive-by but occasionally they come in. To be fair, they're really friendly, not officious in the slightest.

Seeing people without masks is rare, maybe just a couple of people in the nearest town when we're out shopping. Maybe they have a doc's cert that allows them not to wear the mask. Bearing in mind the police presence they will almost certainly be stopped.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I don't understand why. Is it the same in pubs and restaurants etc?
		
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No masks required in pubs and restaurants. Couldn’t see me going if it was introduced either.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 18, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Thankfully the government isn't that sociopathic. We'd all have more freedom if we all stuck to the rules but sadly that seems too much for some.
		
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The exchange for the modicum of freedom we have been given is deaths. 
You might not like it or blissfully ignorant of it but not staying at home seems too difficult for some (and bad for the economy) and has lead to extra deaths. 

A small sacrifice to pay so we can play golf, get a half price meal,  get a pint or nice new frilly frock. 

So what’s wrong with quarantining the old and vulnerable really?


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## williamalex1 (Sep 19, 2020)

Ah !!, so you're not the real the Godfather of Soul


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## Fish (Sep 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			The exchange for the modicum of freedom we have been given is deaths.
You might not like it or blissfully ignorant of it but not staying at home seems too difficult for some (and bad for the economy) and has lead to extra deaths.

A small sacrifice to pay so we can play golf, get a half price meal,  get a pint or *nice new frilly frock.*

So what’s wrong with quarantining the old and vulnerable really?
		
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Hmm, do you have any nice frilly frocks, go on, put up a pic 😜🤔


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## Mudball (Sep 19, 2020)

Nipper’s results came back as negative..  money well spent. While we always knew it as some sort of September bug brought back from the Petri dish of a school, we still had to go thru it. The whole testing fiasco did not help. 

The only downside is that I don’t think this is the only time we/he will be tested this winter


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## KenL (Sep 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Over 1,000,000 folk have joined the new Scots Test and Track app in just over a week.
Seems to be working well.
		
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It will be working when cases stop rising.


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## Ethan (Sep 19, 2020)

KenL said:



			It will be working when cases stop rising.
		
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That is a big ask for an app. The app itself doesn't kill the virus, you know. If it slows the rise and results in a lower peak, that will be a success.


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## KenL (Sep 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is a big ask for an app. The app itself doesn't kill the virus, you know. If it slows the rise and results in a lower peak, that will be a success.
		
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Yes.  I should have said that if it helps to stop the daily number of new cases increasing it will be a success.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Nipper’s results came back as negative..  money well spent. While we always knew it as some sort of September bug brought back from the Petri dish of a school, we still had to go thru it. The whole testing fiasco did not help.

The only downside is that I don’t think this is the only time we/he will be tested this winter
		
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Only thing I don't agree with here is your out of pocket. Should be able to claim it back in this case
What happens next week. Next month.. 2 months time when it happens again and again you have to pay out .. 

Could end up constantly out of pocket in unneeded tests just because you can't get a proper one


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## AmandaJR (Sep 19, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			A wrong, but understandable, assumption! And, likely, a good decision by you too.
		
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You haven't met Zoe behind the bar then!


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## Mudball (Sep 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Only thing I don't agree with here is your out of pocket. Should be able to claim it back in this case
What happens next week. Next month.. 2 months time when it happens again and again you have to pay out .. 

Could end up constantly out of pocket in unneeded tests just because you can't get a proper one
		
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I agree, it is not the long term solution.  I need to check with insurance if I can claim it back... I doubt it. 

Till someone fixes this omnishambles of testing and T&T, it’s not going away. I don’t know who can or will or have the ability to do it. I think we will all meander along till the vaccine is available


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## KenL (Sep 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I agree, it is not the long term solution.  I need to check with insurance if I can claim it back... I doubt it. 

Till someone fixes this omnishambles of testing and T&T, it’s not going away. I don’t know who can or will or have the ability to do it. I think we will all meander along till the vaccine is available
		
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It's maybe not a mess, it is maybe just not possible to keep up with the demand.


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## Ethan (Sep 19, 2020)

KenL said:



			It's maybe not a mess, it is maybe just not possible to keep up with the demand.
		
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Its both, was a mess before, a bigger mess now. Dido claimed the other day that there was 3 times the demand anticipated. That seems highly improbable unless their estimates of demand were utterly and recklessly low. Demand has been predicted to rise around school return for months.


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## Mudball (Sep 19, 2020)

KenL said:



			It's maybe not a mess, it is maybe just not possible to keep up with the demand.
		
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Partially true.. yes it can’t keep up with the demand. 

Also a case when they did not model the demand levels correctly. We had all of summer to prepare. The medical fraternity has been saying it is a case to ‘when’ rather than ‘if’, but that seems to have not made it to the demand models. 

When things are done in silos these can fall between the cracks. Create the models- ensure testing capacity - ensure logistics - work with T&T - ensure PPE - ensure hospital/nightingale capacity - ventilator capacity - etc etc 

From a Guardian article, testing and capacity is doing well within NHS (Pillar 1), the challenge is within Pillar 2 that is covers community testing


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 19, 2020)

KenL said:



			It will be working when cases stop rising.
		
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Out of interest, have you loaded the app?


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## User62651 (Sep 19, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Out of interest, have you loaded the app?
		
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Think you'll just end up in political territory here and the thread will get closed. Frustrating yes but thems the rules!

I would focus commentary more on how covid affects you directly, if that includes being directly affected by the app, fair enough.


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## Ethan (Sep 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Partially true.. yes it can’t keep up with the demand.

Also a case when they did not model the demand levels correctly. We had all of summer to prepare. The medical fraternity has been saying it is a case to ‘when’ rather than ‘if’, but that seems to have not made it to the demand models.

When things are done in silos these can fall between the cracks. Create the models- ensure testing capacity - ensure logistics - work with T&T - ensure PPE - ensure hospital/nightingale capacity - ventilator capacity - etc etc

From a Guardian article, testing and capacity is doing well within NHS (Pillar 1), the challenge is within Pillar 2 that is covers community testing
		
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The numbers also still include antibody tests and antigen tests together, which are assessing two very different things. The number of unique patients tested for antigen remains unclear but is considered to be in the region of 80,000. The rest are duplicate counting, antibody tests and research samples which are not used for test and trace purposes.

How it all affects me its that if I developed Covidy symptoms, I would get tested if one was available relatively near, but I am not driving with my temperature, continuous cough and/or anosmia too far for it.


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## IainP (Sep 20, 2020)

With usual caveats on reporting, can see the impact in the Americas. In the early days Europe totally dominated this list.


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## Ethan (Sep 20, 2020)

IainP said:



			With usual caveats on reporting, can see the impact in the Americas. In the early days Europe totally dominated this list.


View attachment 32433

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These data need to be interpreted carefully. San Marino is effectively one medium sized urban area, as is Andorra, and in that sort of place it either gets a bad dose or not, tends to be an all or nothing thing. The USA, in contrast, has large areas of open space and is really set of different zones which can be affected badly or not to badly depending on their good fortune and local response. Just because New York or Florida gets a lot of cases, doesn't mean rural Montana or Wyoming over a thousand miles away necessarily will.


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## Mudball (Sep 20, 2020)

Still recovering from whatever virus my son brought back from school. As he tested negative, I m assuming I am negative (causation does not mean correlation) 

Equally I signed up for a winter flu jab as my company is offering it to all employees.  My theory is that it might eliminate one side of the fairway. 

My open question is.  If my theory is correct, then why don’t we roll out winter flu vaccine nationwide? 
1) That will keep some people away from testing centres 
2) it takes care of winter bug
3) it is a dry run for how to a nationwide vaccine program - which we will have to do at some point in 2021/22


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Still recovering from whatever virus my son brought back from school. As he tested negative, I m assuming I am negative (causation does not mean correlation)

Equally I signed up for a winter flu jab as my company is offering it to all employees.  My theory is that it might eliminate one side of the fairway.

My open question is.  If my theory is correct, then why don’t we roll out winter flu vaccine nationwide?
1) That will keep some people away from testing centres
2) it takes care of winter bug
3) it is a dry run for how to a nationwide vaccine program - which we will have to do at some point in 2021/22
		
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There’s no guarantee the winter flu vaccine will work this year, Ethan can probably explain it properly, but we were told by our GP a few years back the Winter Vaccine is the “best educated guess” at what the winter bug will be and sometimes they “guess” wrong.

We’ve had it for the last 5-10yrs and sometimes the reaction to the jab has been worse than any flu we’ve been infected with, a couple of times it has seemed pointless as we’ve still gone down with the flu over the winter, thankfully never anything serious though.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Still recovering from whatever virus my son brought back from school. As he tested negative, I m assuming I am negative (causation does not mean correlation)

Equally I signed up for a winter flu jab as my company is offering it to all employees.  My theory is that it might eliminate one side of the fairway.

My open question is.  If my theory is correct, then why don’t we roll out winter flu vaccine nationwide?
1) That will keep some people away from testing centres
2) it takes care of winter bug
3) it is a dry run for how to a nationwide vaccine program - which we will have to do at some point in 2021/22
		
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Good questions and I should think such a roll out should happen, based on the points you made, unless there are good reasons of which we may be unaware.
With all that's going on at present, logistically within the NHS, a nationwide flu jab may be a bridge too far. There may be, likely to be , not enough vaccine.
There may well be some people being tasked, as we write, to prepare a nationwide vaccination programme in the hopes that the vaccine will be forthcoming soon.
Not all circumstances or reasons for not doing things are available for public awareness, so what you have advocated may well have been considered and a decision made. 
It's just we don't get told so much of what has been decided not to do.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2020)

I am getting a winter flu jab tomorrow, i get one every year now.  Thinking about influenza, I dont think I've ever had it, plenty of bad colds but never one that debilitates, I believe if you have the flu it lays you out for a week or so.


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## chellie (Sep 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I am getting a winter flu jab tomorrow, i get one every year now.  Thinking about influenza, I dont think I've ever had it, plenty of bad colds but never one that debilitates, I believe if you have the flu it lays you out for a week or so.
		
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I've had flu twice. Was absolutely horrendous. I would wish it on my enemy! 

I had my jab on Friday.  No soreness in arm or anything.


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## AdamW (Sep 20, 2020)

Would it be a bad idea to get someone to quote for double glazing at the minute? My windows are beyond broken you can not see out of 4 of them and a couple have a big gap around the seals which you can fit your finger in letting a big old draft in. 

Can not make my mind up how risky it is someone coming round to quote?

Would you guys crack on or hold off?


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## Imurg (Sep 20, 2020)

I see a lot of building/home improvements going on around here.
Some people may be holding off so it could be easier to get jobs done quicker.....


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 20, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Would it be a bad idea to get someone to quote for double glazing at the minute? My windows are beyond broken you can not see out of 4 of them and a couple have a big gap around the seals which you can fit your finger in.

Can not make my mind up how risky it is someone coming round to quote?

Would you guys crack on or hold off?
		
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Crack on. We had a joiner put in a stair rail a couple of weeks ago, we are having stair carpet fitted on Friday. Open the door, point them where to go and let them crack on. Easy enough to keep your distance, they wont be going around licking their fingers and wiping them everywhere.


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## Beedee (Sep 20, 2020)

Windows would be a safe job.  Easy to keep distance and the house will be left weather tight and useable at the end of every day.  Not sure I'd be getting a new kitchen or bathroom fitted.  Knowing my luck they'd just have gutted the kitchen when a lockdown gets announced


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## SaintHacker (Sep 20, 2020)

This is an interesting read. Not sure what the anti mask anti vax flat earth conspiracy mob would make of it though...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...rchers/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB


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## fundy (Sep 20, 2020)

Sounds like Whitty and Valance sans Boris et al will be doing a live briefing at 11am tomorrow


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## GB72 (Sep 20, 2020)

I can see a pub curfew coming up. Not a real worry to me if that is the case, most people are out the door by 10. An end to meetings between households would be more testing but at least I got to take my mum out for her birthday on Saturday. She has missed a lot of traditional family events during lockdown so was so happy to get that in. Would have hit her hard if that was cancelled.


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## huds1475 (Sep 20, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Not sure what the anti mask anti vax flat earth conspiracy mob would make of it though...
		
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Theyd doubtless br outraged and label it a conspiracy


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 21, 2020)

We have our Golden Wedding coming up soon.
Going to be a quiet celebration.


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## Mudball (Sep 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			Sounds like Whitty and Valance sans Boris et al will be doing a live briefing at 11am tomorrow
		
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1) Both have the gravitas to deliver the tough news needed.  
2) non politically speaking, the usual Govt faces wont want to be seen delivering bad news.  if the lockdown works, they will take credit, if it does not, then it was always the scientists or sage's idea..

interesting to see two viewpoints on this from Spectator & Telegraph on this....    Get rid of experts and use the army to solve the logistics nightmare

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-time-for-boris-johnson-to-take-back-control 

https://digitaleditions.telegraph.c...d/0/package/358/pub/358/page/65/article/84036


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## SocketRocket (Sep 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We have our Golden Wedding coming up soon.
Going to be a quiet celebration.
		
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Had ours Saturday, Just the two of us, visited the Wiltshire church where we did the deed and it was a beautiful sunny day just like it was back then.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			1) Both have the gravitas to deliver the tough news needed. 
2) non politically speaking, the usual Govt faces wont want to be seen delivering bad news.  if the lockdown works, they will take credit, if it does not, then it was always the scientists or sage's idea..

interesting to see two viewpoints on this from Spectator & Telegraph on this....    Get rid of experts and use the army to solve the logistics nightmare

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-time-for-boris-johnson-to-take-back-control 

https://digitaleditions.telegraph.c...d/0/package/358/pub/358/page/65/article/84036

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You may have reached 7.5 on the naughty scale there


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## Mudball (Sep 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You may have reached 7.5 on the naughty scale there 

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I might be close to the bone, but no political viewpoint from me.


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## IanM (Sep 21, 2020)

Newport on lockdown from tomorrow...I won't be allowed to travel "into the borough" to play golf, but on the upside, can still play courses in Monmouthshire/Brizzle


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## GB72 (Sep 21, 2020)

In the event that contact between households is reduced or stopped, wonder if that would impact on golf. Are we heading back to playing amongst your own household only again.


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## Italian outcast (Sep 21, 2020)

Well my 95 yr old dad has now returned home in Edinburgh after being in hospital since end of March
His best ever son is staying with him for a week or so
I've already cured his deafness - putting new hearing-aid batteries in the right way is a true talent


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## Ethan (Sep 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			In the event that contact between households is reduced or stopped, wonder if that would impact on golf. Are we heading back to playing amongst your own household only again.
		
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I don't think there will be outdoor limits, and as long as pubs and restaurants are open, I don't see why clubhouses should close.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			In the event that contact between households is reduced or stopped, wonder if that would impact on golf. Are we heading back to playing amongst your own household only again.
		
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Organised sport it's fine


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## GB72 (Sep 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Organised sport it's fine
		
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It is at the moment


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## IanM (Sep 21, 2020)

Should have been setting off for Scotland in the morning for a 2 week road trip.... now not :-(


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Organised sport it's fine
		
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Think if it's an outdoor sport there's more chance of it continuing for a bit.  But I'll be surprised if my badminton club night is still going in 2 weeks time.


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## KenL (Sep 21, 2020)

IanM said:



			Should have been setting off for Scotland in the morning for a 2 week road trip.... now not :-(
		
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Why not?  If you are max of 2 households you'd be fine.


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## road2ruin (Sep 21, 2020)

Apparently pubs to be asked to close at 10pm in England as of tomorrow. 

Have a golf trip in Newbury area this weekend so hoping we just sneak that in before Boris ruins it.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 21, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently pubs to be asked to close at 10pm in England as of tomorrow.

Have a golf trip in Newbury area this weekend so hoping we just sneak that in before Boris ruins it.
		
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Really don't get the point of this

Either there closed or open ... Seems a stupid idea just to please pub owners but look like something's being done


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 21, 2020)

Well we couldn’t have a mega party this last weekend for my wife’s ‘special’ birthday - but we still had a lovely weekend with our two children, daughter’s b/friend and my wife’s Bestie. At all times adhering to the rules.  And because of no mega party we are now sitting in the warm sunshine outside a lovely cottage in Charlestown - just outside St Austell. Here for the week and it is going to be lovely.

If it hadn’t been for the coronavirus we wouldn’t be here 😊


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## KenL (Sep 21, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently pubs to be asked to close at 10pm in England as of tomorrow. 

Have a golf trip in Newbury area this weekend so hoping we just sneak that in before Boris ruins it.
		
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No point.  Shut them at 8.  I believe they should be allowed to remain open.
In Scotland they are saying in house transfers are the issue.


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## IanM (Sep 21, 2020)

KenL said:



			Why not?  If you are max of 2 households you'd be fine.
		
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unknown prevailing situation when needed to cancel and health issues with my mum that I’m needed to sort out this week


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## robinthehood (Sep 22, 2020)

I see some chap who's name rhymes with Norris Ronson is going to announce new restrictions, things like early pub closing and table service only. He wil also be reiterating the need to follow all the health advice, which for me is the biggest issue, to many just don't care.  And that's across all ages groups.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well we couldn’t have a mega party this last weekend for my wife’s ‘special’ birthday - but we still had a lovely weekend with our two children, daughter’s b/friend and my wife’s Bestie. At all times adhering to the rules.  And because of no mega party we are now sitting in the warm sunshine outside a lovely cottage in Charlestown - just outside St Austell. Here for the week and it is going to be lovely.

If it hadn’t been for the coronavirus we wouldn’t be here 😊
		
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Good to hear.
Visit the nearby Hidden Garden of Heligan it is fantastic. Nice cafe as well [circa 2004 ]


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## User62651 (Sep 22, 2020)

Pubs just across the Scottish Border could see a booze-cruise style increase in punters from border areas of northern England. Like gamblers coming over the Nevada state line.

Kicking out at 10 doesn't make a lot of sense to me, tokenism, just means house parties or drunk younsters hanging about street corners unfulfilled from their shortened merriment. 
Days are shorterning fast so easy for them to hide from police in the dark.


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## azazel (Sep 22, 2020)

Surely there's more to come (UK-wide anyway) than pubs closing early? Can't see that justifying a statement to parliament and an address to the nation this evening.

If that is all that Boris is planning, I can see Scotland going a bit further.


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Kicking out at 10 doesn't make a lot of sense to me, tokenism, just means house parties or drunk younsters hanging about street corners unfulfilled from their shortened merriment.
Days are shorterning fast so easy for them to hide from police in the dark.

Click to expand...

Well that's up to the idiots who want to be selfish and break the rules isn't it? I'm sure the vast majority of normal law abiding citizens will accept it and try their best to do what's right.


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## User62651 (Sep 22, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Well that's up to the idiots who want to be selfish and break the rules isn't it? I'm sure the vast majority of normal law abiding citizens will accept it and try their best to do what's right.
		
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You're right the vast majority will but a significant minority won't as we've seen countless times over the last 6 months. They're the worst spreaders - the party at home lot. Now there are even well attended anti-vaxxer and 'covid is a hoax' protests ongoing.

Without a vaccine or a perfect test and trace system that everyone signs up to and obeys (they wont), seems this could be an endless cycle of repeats of peaks and troughs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 22, 2020)

A farming friend visited a farming market in Yorkshire last week.
She said it was rammed and not a soul was wearing a mask.
I always thought farmers were quite sensible, so it is not just the idiots then.


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A farming friend visited a farming market in Yorkshire last week.
She said it was rammed and not a soul was wearing a mask.
I always thought farmers were quite sensible, so it is not just the idiots then.
		
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Or alternatively, there are a few idiot farmers out there 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 22, 2020)

Looks like the advice on homeworking is changing again from this to work from home if you can.  
	


Not sure how busy the city centres ever were with workers as I've always worked from home.  But any time I have ventured out in the morning rush hour it did seem to be very quiet on the roads and more like the middle of the day in terms of traffic.  I'm kind of expecting a lot of changing advice in the foreseeable future which we'll just have to get used to.  Change is constant as someone once said.  But I can't help thinking the media do not help with the messaging. As in this example, if the message is something like '_for the time being it seems safer to return to work so if you can please do so' _then fine.  But the way this is phrased makes it sound like it is all the fault of individuals if they lose their jobs.  Then we are being told it is all their fault that the virus is spreading. Again it seems like nuance is a dying art in the media.


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## User62651 (Sep 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A farming friend visited a farming market in Yorkshire last week.
She said it was rammed and not a soul was wearing a mask.
I always thought farmers were quite sensible, so it is not just the idiots then.
		
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Remember masks dont protect you, they protect others from you. Virus will get in your eyes. I think that gets forgotten.
In that regard everyone has to wear a mask at an organised event or the protection isn't there.
Imo the market organisers needed to deem that mask wearing is obligatory, I'd put this on the organisers as people will not wear them unless they're told they have to and the organisers would know this. They are uncomfortable, hot, steam up glasses and at a social thing like a farmers market people want to smile and chat with friends etc unhindered. Messaging had been the virus was on the decline and we were opening up. That's now changed so I think if the market were scheduled for today for example the approach from people would be either 'I'm not going' or 'I will wear a mask'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2020)

Frustrated at how so many are misinterpreting or misrepresenting simple arithmetic that shows what doubling a number every 7 days looks like after 4 iterations.  It’s not a prediction; it’s not forecasting - there is no uncertainty, it’s simple arithmetic based upon actual data being used to demonstrate a simple fact.  How government chooses to interpret and act upon that is up to the government.

How these numbers can be mitigated by the measures recently put in place can be explained; how new measures might also impact upon the growth can also be explained.  But all Vallance did yesterday was show a little bit of simple arithmetic that can we used as a baseline for considering and explaining the impact of various restrictions and assumptions applied.

i suspect that if nothing additional was done then the rule of six would decrease the rate of increase from that used in the illustration presented.  Bit i also suspect that it will not stop the numbers of daily infections increasing - and so whilst in another four weeks time and doing nothing more from today will not see the 50,000 figure - the doubling will still occur albeit it will take more than 7 days to do so.  It’ll therefore just take a bit longer to reach the 50,000 a day figure.


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## road2ruin (Sep 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Frustrated at how so many are misinterpreting or misrepresenting simple arithmetic that shows what doubling a number every 7 days looks like after 4 iterations.  It’s not a prediction; it’s not forecasting - there is no uncertainty, it’s simple arithmetic based upon actual data being used to demonstrate a simple fact.  How government chooses to interpret and act upon that is up to the government.

How these numbers can be mitigated by the measures recently put in place can be explained; how new measures might also impact upon the growth can also be explained.  But all Vallance did yesterday was show a little bit of simple arithmetic that can we used as a baseline for considering and explaining the impact of various restrictions and assumptions applied.

i suspect that if nothing additional was done then the rule of six would decrease the rate of increase from that used in the illustration presented.  Bit i also suspect that it will not stop the numbers of daily infections increasing - and so whilst in another four weeks time and doing nothing more from today will not see the 50,000 figure - the doubling will still occur albeit it will take more than 7 days to do so.  It’ll therefore just take a bit longer to reach the 50,000 a day figure.
		
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They did choose to go with the scaremonger tactics, there are all sorts of scenarios and they've chosen the worst of the worst cases. We're being put on the same path as France and Spain yet they're figures aren't anywhere close to the extreme prediction put forward yesterday.

Plus, and this might be naïve, why do they keep going on about the NHS being overwhelmed when they weren't last time and we now have the Nightingale hospitals that were left unused? Surely we have considerably more capacity than we did in March plus we also have the social distancing, masks etc that the majority are still keeping to so for me, the chances of the NHS being overwhelmed are slight yet it's being put forward as (in my mind) another scare tactic.


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			They did choose to go with the scaremonger tactics, there are all sorts of scenarios and they've chosen the worst of the worst cases. We're being put on the same path as France and Spain yet they're figures aren't anywhere close to the extreme prediction put forward yesterday.

Plus, and this might be naïve, why do they keep going on about the NHS being overwhelmed when they weren't last time and we now have the Nightingale hospitals that were left unused? Surely we have considerably more capacity than we did in March plus we also have the social distancing, masks etc that the majority are still keeping to so for me, the chances of the NHS being overwhelmed are slight yet it's being put forward as (in my mind) another scare tactic.
		
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They didn't go with scaremonger tactics, they went with facts and some forecasts of what modelling would look like if it followed the same course as current data suggests. The message is simple. If we don't get it together fast, it will get very ugly. You can debate exactly how ugly, fine, just accept that it will be ugly. Likewise if you think that is a price worth paying for economic stability, OK, that is a valid point of view. 

The whole point of forecasts is to say this is how bad it can get of we don't do the following. It usually doesn't get that bad because we usually do at least some of the following. 

We might have capacity right now, but that reserve can be eaten up fast, the Nightingale hospitals add more beds but not more staff, drugs, oxygen, PPE etc which have to be diverted from elsewhere. The NHS could easily be overwhelmed.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 22, 2020)

One thing I did pick up from the predictions yesterday were they suggested at the current doubling rate we would see 50k new daily infections in October, and that would lead to 200+ daily deaths. Back in April we were seeing 6000+ new cases and up to 1000 deaths. Something doesn't add up there.


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			One thing I did pick up from the predictions yesterday were they suggested at the current doubling rate we would see 50k new daily infections in October, and that would lead to 200+ daily deaths. Back in April we were seeing 6000+ new cases and up to 1000 deaths. Something doesn't add up there.
		
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Wasn't it 1000 deaths a week and 6000 daily cases? Using that logic both figures wouldn't be a million miles apart.


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## GB72 (Sep 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			One thing I did pick up from the predictions yesterday were they suggested at the current doubling rate we would see 50k new daily infections in October, and that would lead to 200+ daily deaths. Back in April we were seeing 6000+ new cases and up to 1000 deaths. Something doesn't add up there.
		
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From what I got from yesterday, this is due to a better understanding of the virus and how to treat it and so cases that previously may have been fatal now stand a chance of being treated.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			They did choose to go with the scaremonger tactics, there are all sorts of scenarios and they've chosen the worst of the worst cases. We're being put on the same path as France and Spain yet they're figures aren't anywhere close to the extreme prediction put forward yesterday.

Plus, and this might be naïve, why do they keep going on about the NHS being overwhelmed when they weren't last time and we now have the Nightingale hospitals that were left unused? Surely we have considerably more capacity than we did in March plus we also have the social distancing, masks etc that the majority are still keeping to so for me, the chances of the NHS being overwhelmed are slight yet it's being put forward as (in my mind) another scare tactic.
		
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As @Ethan explained.  Not scaremongering just illustrating a simple fact based upon doubling every 7 days. And the figure you get from such a simple model has zero uncertainty as it is simple arithmetic.  There are things that are in place and things that could be done that might give a slower growth - and around which there WILL be uncertainty in predictions - but what was shown was a fact based baseline for comparison.  And if it keeps spreading we WILL reach 50000 a day eventually.  But ONLY if it keeps spreading.


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			One thing I did pick up from the predictions yesterday were they suggested at the current doubling rate we would see 50k new daily infections in October, and that would lead to 200+ daily deaths. Back in April we were seeing 6000+ new cases and up to 1000 deaths. Something doesn't add up there.
		
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The nature of the denominator has changed a bit. A lot of the sickest people (in care homes and hospital) have already died, so the population is on average a bit fitter and more likely to survive now (albeit possibly with downstream complications). That may be interpreted as the case fatality rate falling so people think Covid is less lethal. It isn't. 

There is also a lag between cases and deaths, so some of those 50k cases at end October will not die until mid-November. .


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## GB72 (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			They didn't go with scaremonger tactics, they went with facts and some forecasts of what modelling would look like if it followed the same course as current data suggests. The message is simple. If we don't get it together fast, it will get very ugly. You can debate exactly how ugly, fine, just accept that it will be ugly. Likewise if you think that is a price worth paying for economic stability, OK, that is a valid point of view.

The whole point of forecasts is to say this is how bad it can get of we don't do the following. It usually doesn't get that bad because we usually do at least some of the following.

We might have capacity right now, but that reserve can be eaten up fast, the Nightingale hospitals add more beds but not more staff, drugs, oxygen, PPE etc which have to be diverted from elsewhere. The NHS could easily be overwhelmed.
		
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I actually thought that yesterdays briefing was very good. By taking the politics of both sides out of it to a certain extent, the serious nature of the message was able to be communicated. I think it did need to be said in the terms used and the biggest issue is that people have become lax and have not been seeing the virus and a continued thread. Yesterday was a solid attempt to get people's thinking back to where is was in the early days of the pandemic.


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## GB72 (Sep 22, 2020)

Not sure what is going to be announced today. The 10.00 curfew and 'work from home if possible' do not seem significant enough to warrant a national address (especially one that clashes with Bake Off). Would actually support the temporary halt of people meeting in each others' homes even though this would have the biggest impact on me. Just seems a logical way to lessen the spread without hitting any economic targets.


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## fundy (Sep 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Frustrated at how so many are misinterpreting or misrepresenting simple arithmetic that shows what doubling a number every 7 days looks like after 4 iterations.  *It’s not a prediction; it’s not forecasting - there is no uncertainty, it’s simple arithmetic based upon actual data being used to demonstrate a simple fact*.  How government chooses to interpret and act upon that is up to the government.

How these numbers can be mitigated by the measures recently put in place can be explained; how new measures might also impact upon the growth can also be explained.  But all Vallance did yesterday was show a little bit of simple arithmetic that can we used as a baseline for considering and explaining the impact of various restrictions and assumptions applied.

i suspect that if nothing additional was done then the rule of six would decrease the rate of increase from that used in the illustration presented.  Bit i also suspect that it will not stop the numbers of daily infections increasing - and so whilst in another four weeks time and doing nothing more from today will not see the 50,000 figure - the doubling will still occur albeit it will take more than 7 days to do so.  It’ll therefore just take a bit longer to reach the 50,000 a day figure.
		
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Of course its a prediction, the prediction being that it will continue to double every 7 days, there is no clear evidence that it will continue to do so (it could get faster or slower)


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			Of course its a prediction, the prediction being that it will continue to double every 7 days, there is no clear evidence that it will continue to do so (it could get faster or slower)
		
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I would call it a forecast of what things would look like if the current trajectory continues. People still don't quite get how fast exponential growth moves, so they need a big number placed before them to shake them out of their complacency. The very intention was not to say that this is what is going to happen, but almost the opposite, that this is what we must make sure does not happen. So in a few weeks, you will be able to say 'Yeah, they were wrong again'. Hopefully.


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## fundy (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I would call it a forecast of what things would look like if the current trajectory continues. People still don't quite get how fast exponential growth moves, so they need a big number placed before them to shake them out of their complacency. The very intention was not to say that this is what is going to happen, but almost the opposite, that this is what we must make sure does not happen. So in a few weeks, you will be able to say 'Yeah, they were wrong again'. Hopefully.
		
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love the pedantry, whats the difference between a prediction and a forecast?


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## GB72 (Sep 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			love the pedantry, whats the difference between a prediction and a forecast?
		
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I would describe it more as a (hopefully) worst case scenario. To fill the screen with potential outcomes, both positive and negative would have been confusing. In this case, the message was pretty simple 'this is how bad it could be but we can do something to make it a lot more palatable'


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			love the pedantry, whats the difference between a prediction and a forecast?
		
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Call them what you will, but it isn't pedantry. The idea is that one is intended to foresee what will happen, whether you can alter it or not. I predict Bryson de Chambeau will drive a par-4 at Augusta. I predict that Liverpool will not have as smooth a run in the Premier League this year.

Economic forecasts are intended to paint a picture of what will happen under current assumptions and at present trends, but the outcome can be changed by action to alter those assumptions before then. The Bank of England, Institute for Fiscal Studies and others do this all the time, but the dread outcome often does not happen because Govt acts to prevent it. That is the intention here too.


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## fundy (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Call them what you will, but it isn't pedantry. The idea is that one is intended to foresee what will happen, whether you can alter it or not. I predict Bryson de Chambeau will drive a par-4 at Augusta. I predict that Liverpool will not have as smooth a run in the Premier League this year.

Economic forecasts are intended to paint a picture of what will happen under current assumptions and at present trends, but the outcome can be changed by action to alter those assumptions before then. The Bank of England, Institute for Fiscal Studies and others do this all the time, but the dread outcome often does not happen because Govt acts to prevent it. That is the intention here too.
		
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Definition of prediction according to my dictionary:

noun

a thing predicted; a forecast
eg "a prediction economic growth would resume"


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			Definition of prediction according to my dictionary:

noun

a thing predicted; a forecast
eg "a prediction economic growth would resume"
		
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Pedant, noun, bloke on a golf forum called fundy who is derailing a discussion with nitpicking.


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## fundy (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Pedant, noun, bloke on a golf forum called fundy who is derailing a discussion with nitpicking.
		
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funny that, my dictionary just had a picture of you when i looked at pedant


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			funny that, my dictionary just had a picture of you when i looked at pedant
		
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Too late, pal.


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## robinthehood (Sep 22, 2020)

😂😂😂😂😂 LMFAO

In other news.. More restrictions announced

I thought they'd be stricter, but not really any massive changes.
The NI changes have put paid to my wife's visit to Belfast though.


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## huds1475 (Sep 22, 2020)

KenL said:



			In Scotland they are saying in house transfers are the issue
		
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They were 2 weeks ago, sure thats moved on


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## huds1475 (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			People still don't quite get how fast exponential growth moves, so they need a big number placed before them to shake them out of their complacency.
		
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The exponential growth of cases in my area, according to data on the Covid Symptom Study app, has been intimidating to watch over the last few days.

Would recommend the nitpickers do the same


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2020)

fundy said:



			Of course its a prediction, the prediction being that it will continue to double every 7 days, there is no clear evidence that it will continue to do so (it could get faster or slower)
		
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Sorry - It is NOT a prediction - predictions have associated uncertainty - this is simple arithmetic based upon it doubling every 7 days as it currently is doing - call it an extrapolation if you wish as that is indeed what it is. That growth will continue as it currently is doing with one assumption - and that assumption is that nothing is changed to make the growth rate change.  

I said that there are things that are being done and might be done that would extend the 7 days doubling period but if it continues to increase then the daily figure of 50000 will be reached eventually.  If the government wishes to make that doubling in seven days their baseline assumption for a forecast then it can do that.  But let’s not blame these guys for an exaggerated and dire forecast.


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## andycap (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan , please dont go anywhere  ! every time this  goes off the rails your posts just bring it right back on track with logic and educated reasoning ,  thank you


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - It is NOT a prediction - predictions have associated uncertainty - this is simple arithmetic *based upon it doubling every 7 days as it currently is doing* - call it an extrapolation if you wish as that is indeed what it is. That growth will continue as it currently is doing with one assumption - and that assumption is that nothing is changed to make the growth rate change.
		
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The thing is that it isn't currently doubling every 7 days. The attached image shows the number of positive cases each day. There was a big jump in the week from 6th - 13th September where it did almost double, which would coincide with schools going back, but in the last week ( 13th -20th Sept) it's levelled off and only increased by 4403 or 17%.




Numbers taken from the graph on this site........https://www.statista.com/statistics/1101947/coronavirus-cases-development-uk/

EDIT - should have said that the first column of numbers is cases on that date and the last column is cumulative case of the preceding 7 days - helpfully colour coded to compare weeks.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 22, 2020)

Big jump today, nearly 5000 new cases, thats the sort of numbers we were seeing at the start of the lockdown in April


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 22, 2020)

Interesting to see what 8.00pm will bring. Has to be more than work from home if you can, closing pubs etc early and wearing masks inside unless you are sitting down to eat or drink. Seems set to be here for six months perhaps longer based on what has been said today. The thing is until the R number reduces significantly and the spread slows what are the alternatives. Any which way it's going to be a bumpy ride short term at least


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 22, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			They were 2 weeks ago, sure thats moved on
		
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That was two weeks after the Scottish schools returned [now 4 weeks]
To me the inevitable has happened, England should have followed suit to save additional restrictions down the line.
Bad mistake IMO.

Scottish pubs go back to the 1960's, closing at 10pm
I wonder if you will still get the 10 mins.[cough] drinking up time.


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## User62651 (Sep 22, 2020)

One positive............. the inlaws can't come to stay.


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

andycap said:



			Ethan , please dont go anywhere  ! every time this  goes off the rails your posts just bring it right back on track with logic and educated reasoning ,  thank you
		
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## KenL (Sep 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			That was two weeks after the Scottish schools returned [now 4 weeks]
To me the inevitable has happened, England should have followed suit to save additional restrictions down the line.
Bad mistake IMO.

Scottish pubs go back to the 1960's, closing at 10pm
I wonder if you will still get the 10 mins.[cough] drinking up time.
		
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Heard from 2 pub owners on radio today convinced that early closing will lead to more people heading into homes at night.


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## Beezerk (Sep 22, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			One positive............. the inlaws can't come to stay.

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And we won't be able to go down theirs at Christmas 🙌🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2020)

Seriously disppointed that the behaviours of too many of the population of this country means that we are now going to be under tighter restrictions quite possibly for the next 6 months.  Restrictions that will really knacker the work prospects of so many in the entertainment and hospitality sectors - some currently not long back to work; still furloughed; or already made redundant.

And so when I hear so many spout that they should be able to assess and live their own risk, without expressing any care or consideration for those whose lives have been so seriously impacted by the virus, I can feel heartily sickened by the state of our country.

And this is personal as we know that our son will be feeling severely depressed and distressed by today's developments - and we know we will have to continue to support him through the very difficult times of the coming dark months.


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## road2ruin (Sep 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seriously disppointed that the behaviours of too many of the population of this country means that we are now going to be under tighter restrictions quite possibly for the next 6 months.  Restrictions that will really knacker the work prospects of so many in the entertainment and hospitality sectors - some currently not long back to work; still furloughed; or already made redundant.

And so when I hear so many spout that they should be able to assess and live their own risk, without expressing any care or consideration for those whose lives have been so seriously impacted by the virus, I can feel heartily sickened by the state of our country.

And this is personal as we know that our son will be feeling severely depressed and distressed by today's developments - and we know we will have to continue to support him through the very difficult times of the coming dark months.
		
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Sorry but I honestly believe that the majority of the population have done their bit. There was always going to be a minority who don’t, that’s the same with anything. The restrictions being brought in now are largely due to the Government (rightly) bring schools, colleges etc back full time and actively encouraging everyone to get back to work and stop working at home. This is, in my opinion, where most of the increase in cases has come from. 

If anyone should be taking flak now it is 100% at the door of the Government. It seems to have been a surprise to them that after all the restrictions that cases would rise having told people to get back to it. It’s embarrassing that after 6 months or so to prepare we seem to be starting from a standing start. Where was the preparation with track and trace etc? The rises in cases was a definite yet here we are, blaming young people, blaming the fact that it’s Autumn etc etc. Cretins, the lot of them.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			S*eriously disppointed that the behaviours of too many of the population of this country* means that we are now going to be under tighter restrictions quite possibly for the next 6 months.  Restrictions that will really knacker the work prospects of so many in the entertainment and hospitality sectors - some currently not long back to work; still furloughed; or already made redundant.

And so when I hear so many spout that they should be able to assess and live their own risk, without expressing any care or consideration for those whose lives have been so seriously impacted by the virus, I can feel heartily sickened by the state of our country.

And this is personal as we know that our son will be feeling severely depressed and distressed by today's developments - and we know we will have to continue to support him through the very difficult times of the coming dark months.
		
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I would argue it is very debatable if the blame should be on 'too many of the population'. Some other countries are seeing the same rise so we are not unique, and without a world beating test and trace system at the same time as the return to schools, universities, restaurants, bars, work place etc whilst trying to fight a virus that is spread by human contact then no quite sure what anyone expected. The majority of the population have followed the rules and if plans were based on 100% compliance then I'd suggest the plans were at least to blame as much as the population have been.


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## robinthehood (Sep 22, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Interesting to see what 8.00pm will bring. Has to be more than work from home if you can, closing pubs etc early and wearing masks inside unless you are sitting down to eat or drink. Seems set to be here for six months perhaps longer based on what has been said today. The thing is until the R number reduces significantly and the spread slows what are the alternatives. Any which way it's going to be a bumpy ride short term at least
		
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Exactly the same things that have already been released several hours ago. 🤣


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

I think the general public has done pretty well during lockdown. The Govt was said to be surprised by the numbers working from home, the small numbers of key workers' kids attending school, the streets in many big cities were like a post apocalyptic movie and the reluctance of people to go back to offices leading to Govt demands that people should.

The problem all tracks back to allowing virus into the country by failing to lockdown fast and effectively enough and failing to properly get control of it through competent test and trace. Once that battle was lost, the rest was and is inevitable.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the general public has done pretty well during lockdown. The Govt was said to be surprised by the numbers working from home, the small numbers of key workers' kids attending school, the streets in many big cities were like a post apocalyptic movie and the reluctance of people to go back to offices leading to Govt demands that people should.

The problem all tracks back to allowing virus into the country by failing to lockdown fast and effectively enough and failing to properly get control of it through competent test and trace. Once that battle was lost, the rest was and is inevitable.
		
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What are your thoughts on the idea that the virus has mutated and is now more infectious but less lethal, the nurse in my wife’s respiratory ward was talking about it. Only her opinion of course but if the number of deaths stay low 🤞🏻 There might be something to it.


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## GB72 (Sep 22, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What are your thoughts on the idea that the virus has mutated and is now more infectious but less lethal, the nurse in my wife’s respiratory ward was talking about it. Only her opinion of course but if the number of deaths stay low 🤞🏻 There might be something to it.
		
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An Italian doctor suggested that at the end of the first lockdown and was shot down pretty quickly


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## Ethan (Sep 22, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			What are your thoughts on the idea that the virus has mutated and is now more infectious but less lethal, the nurse in my wife’s respiratory ward was talking about it. Only her opinion of course but if the number of deaths stay low 🤞🏻 There might be something to it.
		
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I have heard the same and there is some discussion on medical fora, but I think the general view is that there is not good evidence of that. There are a couple of mutations of Covid around, but that has been the case for some months. The case fatality rate has dropped a bit recently, which might be because it hit the most vulnerable first, and is now working through slightly tougher patients with a lower kill rate. 

Treatments are also better now. at the start it was treated like a conventional pneumonia, but now different oxygenation protocols are used and the focus on stuff like thrombotic complications is much sharper. 

On the other hand, we are also learning that a lot more people have residual disease, mostly due to the inflammatory effects of the virus, including thrombosis, liver, renal and brain effects. Patients who seem to get better initially and then suddenly get worse around day 7 have usually had an inflammatory episode, with an outpouring of hormones and various natural immune cells in what is known as a cytokine storm. That might explain why BAME or people with diabetes or hypertension do worse, they have a heightened basal state of inflammation, so are part of the way down that track already. 

Covid remains a nasty disease and if you get it, have a miserable week in bed then get back to normal, you have been fortunate.


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## Fade and Die (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I have heard the same and there is some discussion on medical fora, but I think the general view is that there is not good evidence of that. There are a couple of mutations of Covid around, but that has been the case for some months. *The case fatality rate has dropped a bit recently, which might be because it hit the most vulnerable first, and is now working through slightly tougher patients with a lower kill rate.*

Treatments are also better now. at the start it was treated like a conventional pneumonia, but now different oxygenation protocols are used and the focus on stuff like thrombotic complications is much sharper.

On the other hand, we are also learning that a lot more people have residual disease, mostly due to the inflammatory effects of the virus, including thrombosis, liver, renal and brain effects. Patients who seem to get better initially and then suddenly get worse around day 7 have usually had an inflammatory episode, with an outpouring of hormones and various natural immune cells in what is known as a cytokine storm. That might explain why BAME or people with diabetes or hypertension do worse, they have a heightened basal state of inflammation, so are part of the way down that track already.

Covid remains a nasty disease and if you get it, have a miserable week in bed then get back to normal, you have been fortunate.
		
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The highlighted bit is certainly true, I did a bit of reading, found the case/fatality ratio had fallen from 6% on 24 June to 1.5% on 5 August, a four-fold drop in under six weeks. (Oxford university study)
Also as you say another important change is the age of new infections. At the peak of the UK's outbreak in April, 75% of people catching the virus were aged over 75, but in recent weeks the balance has shifted, with more found among working-age people. (Sky news article)
They don't get hit as badly by COVID-19, which brings the case fatality ratio down.
(Obviously if it starts getting out of control in the young it will again spread to the more vulnerable parts of the population)
As before the best places to look to see what is going to happen here are France and Spain, where cases are rising fast, but deaths and hospitalisations are still low.
Personally I feel optimistic that it is not going to go the same way as it did in March.

Still not convinced of the accuracy of the test either as both my wife and another lady on the 4 bed ward tested negative (4 times now) after a positive test. Unfortunately it has delayed her Transfer and treatment.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the general public has done pretty well during lockdown. The Govt was said to be surprised by the numbers working from home, the small numbers of key workers' kids attending school, the streets in many big cities were like a post apocalyptic movie and the reluctance of people to go back to offices leading to Govt demands that people should.

*The problem all tracks back to allowing virus into the country by failing to lockdown fast and effectively enough and failing to properly get control of it through competent test and trace. Once that battle was lost, the rest was and is inevitable*.
		
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Without getting into a political battle (not allowed), I would like to make a point about yours in bold above, one you have  made several times. And with an inference of incompetence by the government.
I will make mine only once.
It is true that if the borders had been shut to all who may have possibly brought virus into the country, that the infections would have been minimal:
However, that practicalitywas just not on at the onset of this.
I understand that, apart from business and highly desirable visits from non U.K. citizens, for whatever reasons, there were in 2019 some 93000 or so UK citizens visiting abroad. Giving an idea of how large a number are abroad at any one time.
Would not your border lockdown have denied them return to their homeland?
All sorts of protests and claims of panic and unnecessary draconian action would have been levelled at that decision.
Even now, with the forthcoming measures, there is a balance to be struck, so that the economy and education of the country can partially function.
A little understanding of the difficulties and complexities re this Covid is what this Country should now be showing. Let's hope they do.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would argue it is very debatable if the blame should be on 'too many of the population'. Some other countries are seeing the same rise so we are not unique, and without a world beating test and trace system at the same time as the return to schools, universities, restaurants, bars, work place etc whilst trying to fight a virus that is spread by human contact then no quite sure what anyone expected. The majority of the population have followed the rules and if plans were based on 100% compliance then I'd suggest the plans were at least to blame as much as the population have been.
		
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The virus is spread by people failing to maintain some simple disciplines like social distancing, it doesnt take the majority to start infections rising again, it just needs a minority of meat heads who think their social life is sacrosanct along with a belief of invunerability.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 22, 2020)

Why would anyone think that our government and others around the world are crippling their own economies for something that's not that serious.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 23, 2020)

KenL said:



			Heard from 2 pub owners on radio today convinced that early closing will lead to more people heading into homes at night.
		
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Most of the pubs/eating houses in my rural area are empty at 10 o clock. Probable exception on a Saturday night.
I think that those pub owners will save money.
There has always been a carry oot by some customers/alcoholics no matter what time the pub closed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I would argue it is very debatable if the blame should be on 'too many of the population'. Some other countries are seeing the same rise so we are not unique, and without a world beating test and trace system at the same time as the return to schools, universities, restaurants, bars, work place etc whilst trying to fight a virus that is spread by human contact then no quite sure what anyone expected. The majority of the population have followed the rules and if plans were based on 100% compliance then I'd suggest the plans were at least to blame as much as the population have been.
		
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There is no point in commenting upon the government (not allowed) or Test & Trace (not yet ‘World Class’).  But we can all do our bit despite any failings in the aforementioned, and the performance of a section of our population has been lamentable - and it is humans that pass on the infection - with a serious impact on the lives of many.


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## Ethan (Sep 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Without getting into a political battle (not allowed), I would like to make a point about yours in bold above, one you have  made several times. And with an inference of incompetence by the government.
I will make mine only once.
It is true that if the borders had been shut to all who may have possibly brought virus into the country, that the infections would have been minimal:
However, that practicalitywas just not on at the onset of this.
I understand that, apart from business and highly desirable visits from non U.K. citizens, for whatever reasons, there were in 2019 some 93000 or so UK citizens visiting abroad. Giving an idea of how large a number are abroad at any one time.
Would not your border lockdown have denied them return to their homeland?
All sorts of protests and claims of panic and unnecessary draconian action would have been levelled at that decision.
Even now, with the forthcoming measures, there is a balance to be struck, so that the economy and education of the country can partially function.
A little understanding of the difficulties and complexities re this Covid is what this Country should now be showing. Let's hope they do.
		
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No, my lockdown would have quarantined them for 2 weeks. Business will suffer more in the long run from this.


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## Ethan (Sep 23, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			The highlighted bit is certainly true, I did a bit of reading, found the case/fatality ratio had fallen from 6% on 24 June to 1.5% on 5 August, a four-fold drop in under six weeks. (Oxford university study)
Also as you say another important change is the age of new infections. At the peak of the UK's outbreak in April, 75% of people catching the virus were aged over 75, but in recent weeks the balance has shifted, with more found among working-age people. (Sky news article)
They don't get hit as badly by COVID-19, which brings the case fatality ratio down.
(Obviously if it starts getting out of control in the young it will again spread to the more vulnerable parts of the population)
As before the best places to look to see what is going to happen here are France and Spain, where cases are rising fast, but deaths and hospitalisations are still low.
Personally I feel optimistic that it is not going to go the same way as it did in March.

Still not convinced of the accuracy of the test either as both my wife and another lady on the 4 bed ward tested negative (4 times now) after a positive test. Unfortunately it has delayed her Transfer and treatment.
		
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There is some artefact in the different rates. I don't think the true case fatality rate was ever 6%, but it does seem to have fallen a bit, mostly as a result in changes in the population affected.


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## Captainron (Sep 23, 2020)

Has made me realise that quite a few people I know thought they were destined to live forever. Where there have been deaths of people over the age of 50/60/70/80 and they’re saying “I can’t believe they’re gone at such a young age.” Or “Gone before their time” etc 

We’re far too unaware of our own mortality.


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## Billysboots (Sep 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, my lockdown would have quarantined them for 2 weeks.
		
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As, I believe, happened with a small number repatriated from a cruise liner - weren’t they all shipped off to Liverpool somewhere for 14 days?

I said this way back in February. Everyone returning to the U.K. from a known coronavirus hotspot, such as those skiing in Northern Italy, should have been met at the airport and driven straight to a quarantine centre. It may well have been a logistical nightmare, but it would have been a whole lot better than the chaos which has ensued.


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## Kellfire (Sep 23, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Why would anyone think that our government and others around the world are crippling their own economies for something that's not that serious.
		
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Because they believe it’s to make the working class poorer so that those who are already rich can hold more power and sway. It’s the deep state or the new world order, whatever the particular conspiracy theorist leans towards that day as is usually said to be controlled by George Soros, Bill Gates, Prince Charles etc etc. 

I’m genuinely not making this up.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is some artefact in the different rates. I don't think the true case fatality rate was ever 6%, but it does seem to have fallen a bit, mostly as a result in changes in the population affected.
		
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What about the theory that masks are causing a lower viral load (not sure if that's the correct term) and people are getting a lower initial dose of the virus due the mask preventing some of the virus getting through so their immune system is better able to cope and they don't get as unwell with it? Does that hold any weight?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

I do laugh at people suggesting that only those not complying with social distancing and other measures are somehow the same people who are at the bottom end of the social and economic tables! 

Behave, there are plenty of cases of all types of people at all ends of the social and economic spectrum thinking they are immune to this and flouting the rules.


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## bobmac (Sep 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Because they believe it’s to make the working class poorer so that those who are already rich can hold more power and sway. It’s the deep state or the new world order, whatever the particular conspiracy theorist leans towards that day as is usually said to be controlled by George Soros, Bill Gates, Prince Charles etc etc.

I’m genuinely not making this up.
		
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What are your sources?


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## Ethan (Sep 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about the theory that masks are causing a lower viral load (not sure if that's the correct term) and people are getting a lower initial dose of the virus due the mask preventing some of the virus getting through so their immune system is better able to cope and they don't get as unwell with it? Does that hold any weight?
		
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Interesting and plausible but unproven. Viral load seems to be related to severity of infection so NHS staff who work with sick people shedding a lot of virus are at higher risk. The variolation theory is essentially a sort of natural immunisation without getting enough virus to make you really sick.


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## Ethan (Sep 23, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			As, I believe, happened with a small number repatriated from a cruise liner - weren’t they all shipped off to Liverpool somewhere for 14 days?

I said this way back in February. Everyone returning to the U.K. from a known coronavirus hotspot, such as those skiing in Northern Italy, should have been met at the airport and driven straight to a quarantine centre. It may well have been a logistical nightmare, but it would have been a whole lot better than the chaos which has ensued.
		
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People from Wuhan were shipped off to The Wirral, I think. Caused a minor fuss in my area because the coaches used were from a local Reading firm that also does school runs.


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## Robster59 (Sep 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The virus is spread by people failing to maintain some simple disciplines like social distancing, it doesnt take the majority to start infections rising again, it just needs a minority of meat heads who think their social life is sacrosanct along with a belief of invunerability.
		
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This is what depresses me more than anything else.  
The guidelines are there and in place but people still ignore them for their own stupid and/or selfish reasons.  They think the rules don't apply to them, or they'll never get it, or think they've had it and are immune and they NEVER think about the consequences about passing it on to somebody else.  You can read cases about it pretty much every day.  We seem to be in a world where people just don't care about the impact on everyone else as long as they can do what they like, irrespective of the consequences.


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## Crazyface (Sep 23, 2020)

Why has the North West got the top 10 highest areas of infection? Very strange. What are they doing there?


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## Pathetic Shark (Sep 23, 2020)

I do think the media is shifting towards a mantra of "we've had enough of this now - the country's financials have to come first".     Of course we could debate this until the cows come home or a mod shuts it down but there is a real sense of a different attitude to the one we had back in March.


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## Crazyface (Sep 23, 2020)

Also, the rule of six thing. We have a bubble with my mum, who's on her own and comes to dinner on a Thursday and Sunday with us. Does she count as our household when our lad and family (totalling four) come for Sunday dinner as well?


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## Crazyface (Sep 23, 2020)

The medics make me laugh. They can't even agree on the best course of action. Never trust someone with a degree in anything I say. LOL


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## GB72 (Sep 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Also, the rule of six thing. We have a bubble with my mum, who's on her own and comes to dinner on a Thursday and Sunday with us. Does she count as our household when our lad and family (totalling four) come for Sunday dinner as well?
		
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Households are not relevant anymore in England, it is just 6 people and so if there are more than 6 (I am assuming 7 of you) then that is not allowed.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 23, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I do think the media is shifting towards a mantra of "we've had enough of this now - the country's financials have to come first".     Of course we could debate this until the cows come home or a mod shuts it down but there is a real sense of a different attitude to the one we had back in March.
		
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I think the public mood is shifting slowly to more of an attitude of we will try and live with this and even accept a (certain) level of deaths.  With various reasons from the nut job anti vax conspiracists to those that are essentially very low risk and need the economy to continue to survive both financially and mentally. And I expect there will be more calls for the vulnerable to isolate more instead of blanket wide measures that will further shut down the economy and most peoples social lives. But I've been wrong before and no doubt will be wrong again.


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## drdel (Sep 23, 2020)

It is rather sad that so much time seems to be spent trying to find ways to 'get around' the common sense of the guidelines and looking for loop holes. 

Its a very infectious and potentially fatal virus that is transmitted between  people, so personal hygiene  and reducing social contact should be an obvious aim for any sensible human.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			It is rather sad that so much time seems to be spent trying to find ways to 'get around' the *common sense of the guidelines *and looking for loop holes.

Its a very infectious and potentially fatal virus that is transmitted between  people, so personal hygiene  and reducing social contact should be an obvious aim for any sensible human.
		
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But some may argue that for them it is not. As you end up in the arguments about it is OK to meet in pubs and workplaces but not in houses, you can do one thing in England but not in Scotland etc etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			It is rather sad that so much time seems to be spent trying to find ways to 'get around' the common sense of the guidelines and looking for loop holes.

Its a very infectious and potentially fatal virus that is transmitted between  people, so personal hygiene  and reducing social contact should be an obvious aim for any *sensible* human.
		
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How do you look after the sensible who have to work and be put in to situations they have no choice over.

It’s not a perfect world or a one solution fits all scenarios.


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## Mudball (Sep 23, 2020)

You want some good conspiracy... here one from Whatsapp  >>  
A drug called Remdesivir, manufactured by Gilead Sciences, is now being reported as the ultimate “CURE” for COVID-19. But it gets interesting...
The patent for Remdesivir is currently held by China through an agreement with  Gilead’s drug patent sharing subsidiary, called UNITAID. 
UNITAID just happens to have an office near Wuhan, CHINA! 
You gotta be kiddin' me!
Can you guess who some major investors in UNITAID  might be? You don't know?
Well, how about none other than George Soros, Bill & Melinda Gates, and WHO (World Health Organization). You gotta be kiddin' me!
I know what you’re thinking!  Just coincidence!
Well, here’s another coincidence. Both Gilead Sciences & UNITAID were financial backers of Hillary Clinton in the last election. You gotta be kiddin' me!
Another coincidence - Dr. Fauci authorized millions of American dollars to be sent to The Wuhan Institute of Virology in China, specifically to study  Coronaviruses.
You gotta be kiddin' me!
Oh, did I mention Dr. Fauci’s wife works for Gilead Sciences?  
You gotta be kiddinn' me!
What do you think?
Just coincidences!  Nothing to see here folks, just keep moving along.
It’s no wonder Dr. Fauci slapped down hydroxychloroquine, inexpensive, been around 60+ years, proven safety record, even though its success rate was very favorable. Why? Because he was told to!! The news media backed him up all the way!
It’s amazing what you find when you follow the money!!
Here’s a link to the full, very thorough report. 
Do you detect political considerations? Just a coincidence?
CLICK BELOW
https://civilianintelligencenetwork...gates-partner-with-china-on-coronavirus-drug/


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## Kellfire (Sep 23, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What are your sources?
		
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I assume you’re being facetious as the conspiracy theorists are all over social media and even the news at times these days.


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## Ethan (Sep 23, 2020)

Mudball said:



			You want some good conspiracy... here one from Whatsapp  >> 
A drug called Remdesivir, manufactured by Gilead Sciences, is now being reported as the ultimate “CURE” for COVID-19. But it gets interesting...
The patent for Remdesivir is currently held by China through an agreement with  Gilead’s drug patent sharing subsidiary, called UNITAID.
UNITAID just happens to have an office near Wuhan, CHINA!
You gotta be kiddin' me!
Can you guess who some major investors in UNITAID  might be? You don't know?
Well, how about none other than George Soros, Bill & Melinda Gates, and WHO (World Health Organization). You gotta be kiddin' me!
I know what you’re thinking!  Just coincidence!
Well, here’s another coincidence. Both Gilead Sciences & UNITAID were financial backers of Hillary Clinton in the last election. You gotta be kiddin' me!
Another coincidence - Dr. Fauci authorized millions of American dollars to be sent to The Wuhan Institute of Virology in China, specifically to study  Coronaviruses.
You gotta be kiddin' me!
Oh, did I mention Dr. Fauci’s wife works for Gilead Sciences? 
You gotta be kiddinn' me!
What do you think?
Just coincidences!  Nothing to see here folks, just keep moving along.
It’s no wonder Dr. Fauci slapped down hydroxychloroquine, inexpensive, been around 60+ years, proven safety record, even though its success rate was very favorable. Why? Because he was told to!! The news media backed him up all the way!
It’s amazing what you find when you follow the money!!
Here’s a link to the full, very thorough report.
Do you detect political considerations? Just a coincidence?
CLICK BELOW
https://civilianintelligencenetwork...gates-partner-with-china-on-coronavirus-drug/

Click to expand...

I think some people are kidding him.

Hydroxychloroquine simply has no useful effect in Covid. Multiple reliably conducted studies, none of which have included Bill Gates, George Soros or Dr Fauci's wife, have shown no useful role for it, and some concluded it was potentially harmful. 

That rambling conspiracy theory has been dissected comprehensively, but amongst other issues, China does not hold the patent for remdesivir and Unitaid does not have an office anywhere in China.


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## drdel (Sep 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			How do you look after the sensible who have to work and be put in to situations they have no choice over.

It’s not a perfect world or a one solution fits all scenarios.
		
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You'll notice I said "...reducing *social* contact..." I recognise that there will be exceptions but employers should also be adopting COVID guidance so workers should not be put in compromised environments.

We have lived with season flu causing many thousands to die each year so we ought not to need politicians to *tell* us what's sensible actions for infectious diseases and there's even less need for a media to create a constant bitching and contradictory hype.


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## Robster59 (Sep 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why has the North West got the top 10 highest areas of infection? Very strange. What are they doing there?
		
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Far more sociable than them miserable buggers down south


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## GB72 (Sep 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			You'll notice I said "...reducing *social* contact..." I recognise that there will be exceptions but employers should also be adopting COVID guidance so workers should not be put in compromised environments.

We have lived with season flu causing many thousands to die each year so we ought not to need politicians to *tell* us what's sensible actions for infectious diseases and there's even less need for a media to create a constant bitching and contradictory hype.
		
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This is what gets me, the constant bleating for people to be told what to do. Surely everyone has the basics now, wash hands, social distance, masks indoors. Stick to that and you are 90% there to keeping yourself as safe as possible.


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## Robster59 (Sep 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think some people are kidding him.

Hydroxychloroquine simply has no useful effect in Covid. Multiple reliably conducted studies, none of which have included Bill Gates, George Soros or Dr Fauci's wife, have shown no useful role for it, and some concluded it was potentially harmful.

That rambling conspiracy theory has been dissected comprehensively, but amongst other issues, China does not hold the patent for remdesivir and Unitaid does not have an office anywhere in China.
		
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The trouble is that anything can be made up nowadays and put on to the internet to allow people to process their own agenda.  Keyboard warriors cause more damage than I care to think about.  Remember the MMR Conspiracy which has now put millions of children at risk?  It happens with Covid for sure but I saw one from a relative in the States (he's a real gun nut) who posted a video from the NRA that tried to intimate that us Brits wanted guns legalised, showed people protesting against a hunting ban (without, funnily enough, saying it was about fox hunting), speaking to "a policeman" in silhouette saying that the Police wanted guns, and other such BS.  I went on and basically pulled the whole thing to bits.  He apologised, but he was quite ready to believe it because it suited his own personal agenda.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 23, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



*I think the public mood is shifting slowly to more of an attitude of we will try and live with this and even accept a (certain) level of deaths*.  With various reasons from the nut job anti vax conspiracists to those that are essentially very low risk and need the economy to continue to survive both financially and mentally. And I expect there will be more calls for the vulnerable to isolate more instead of blanket wide measures that will further shut down the economy and most peoples social lives. But I've been wrong before and no doubt will be wrong again.
		
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You are not alone in that thought.



drdel said:



			It is rather sad that *so much time seems to be spent trying to find ways to 'get around' the common sense of the guidelines and looking for loop holes.*

Its a very infectious and potentially fatal virus that is transmitted between  people, so personal hygiene  and reducing social contact should be an obvious aim for any sensible human.
		
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Surely the solution to which is to provide guidance without loopholes, or which do not appear to defy logic.



Hacker Khan said:



			But some may argue that for them it is not. As you end up in the arguments about it is *OK to meet in pubs and workplaces but not in houses, you can do one thing in England but not in Scotland etc etc.*

Click to expand...

I think a lot of the issue is the apparent inconsistencies in the guidance that have been highlighted.  Either the guidance needs to be much clearer, or some degree of explanation needs to be provided.

You will always have the stupid and the selfish who don't understand or who consider their personal circumstances more important than the greater good; forget them, you can't change them.  What you don't want to lose is the middle ground who see the need for the restrictions, but struggle to understand some of them.  Why can you not meet family indoors but can meet them in the pub; why can you drink in a pub at 10pm, but not at 10.01pm; why do you not need a mask on to play golf because of the reduced risk of transmission outdoors, but you need to wear one on the open deck of a ferry?

People looking for loopholes will use the apparent inconsistencies, people confused or frustrated by them are less inclined to follow them.  Explain the inconsistencies to them, or eliminate them, and there might be far fewer issues.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			People looking for loopholes
		
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A loophole for a family Xmas - If you want to have a family Xmas with more than 6 people then the answer is simple. Get a live turkey and kill it in your garden. Pop it in the oven and invite up to 30 people round for the turkey's funeral (cremation).


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## Ethan (Sep 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			You are not alone in that thought.



Surely the solution to which is to provide guidance without loopholes, or which do not appear to defy logic.



I think a lot of the issue is the apparent inconsistencies in the guidance that have been highlighted.  Either the guidance needs to be much clearer, or some degree of explanation needs to be provided.

You will always have the stupid and the selfish who don't understand or who consider their personal circumstances more important than the greater good; forget them, you can't change them.  What you don't want to lose is the middle ground who see the need for the restrictions, but struggle to understand some of them.  Why can you not meet family indoors but can meet them in the pub; why can you drink in a pub at 10pm, but not at 10.01pm; why do you not need a mask on to play golf because of the reduced risk of transmission outdoors, but you need to wear one on the open deck of a ferry?

People looking for loopholes will use the apparent inconsistencies, people confused or frustrated by them are less inclined to follow them.  Explain the inconsistencies to them, or eliminate them, and there might be far fewer issues.
		
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In my opinion, the big distinction is between inside and outside, and this has been blurred too much in recent English guidance, less so in other places. If you practice common sense, then being outside is safe enough whether you are chasing grouse or birdies. Inside is where the major risk of transmission lies, in pubs, workplaces, shops, homes. I don't see the logic behind the 10pm pub closure. Is there really evidence that people will exercise better judgement with an earlier closing time? It will hurt wages for staff on an hourly rate. 

Schools remain a big swing issue. If public confidence in school opening fails, there will be trouble. Yesterday my son's secondary school reported a case and some kids in the bubble sent on self-isolation. My son wasn't in that bubble. On FB, some responses were hysterical, with people saying that they knew schools weren't safe etc etc. I pointed out to them that they better brace themselves because this is only the first of many, and every school in the country will have multiple such cases.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			You'll notice I said "...reducing *social* contact..." I recognise that there will be exceptions but employers should also be adopting COVID guidance so workers should not be put in compromised environments.

We have lived with season flu causing many thousands to die each year so we ought not to need politicians to *tell* us what's sensible actions for infectious diseases and there's even less need for a media to create a constant bitching and contradictory hype.
		
Click to expand...

This is like nothing we’ve ever seen in out lifetime, using your analogies, Why do people smoke, drink, speed, take drugs etc? Life comes with risks and choices and with Covid-19 some Governments gave choice or blurred lines and then blame everybody else, we all have a part to play in walks of life and not one area is innocent in all this.

Time for the authorities to remove choice not continually gamble and keep blaming the media.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			You are not alone in that thought.



Surely the solution to which is to provide guidance without loopholes, or which do not appear to defy logic.

I think a lot of the issue is the apparent inconsistencies in the guidance that have been highlighted.  Either the guidance needs to be much clearer, or some degree of explanation needs to be provided.

You will always have the stupid and the selfish who don't understand or who consider their personal circumstances more important than the greater good; forget them, you can't change them.  What you don't want to lose is the middle ground who see the need for the restrictions, but struggle to understand some of them.  Why can you not meet family indoors but can meet them in the pub; why can you drink in a pub at 10pm, but not at 10.01pm; why do you not need a mask on to play golf because of the reduced risk of transmission outdoors, but you need to wear one on the open deck of a ferry?

People looking for loopholes will use the apparent inconsistencies, people confused or frustrated by them are less inclined to follow them.  Explain the inconsistencies to them, or eliminate them, and there might be far fewer issues.
		
Click to expand...

The more it's clarified the more people will complain that it's too complicated. The basics are simple, no one should have a problem understanding them. Regarding things like being able to meet down the pub but not at home doesnt need much explanation but gets used to try and breed confusion for the sake of it.  Wash your hands, keep a space, wear a mask, no more than six, how difficult is that for people to understand.


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## GB72 (Sep 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The more it's clarified the more people will complain that it's too complicated. The basics are simple, no one should have a problem understanding them. Regarding things like being able to meet down the pub but not at home doesnt need much explanation but gets used to try and breed confusion for the sake of it.  Wash your hands, keep a space, wear a mask, no more than six, how difficult is that for people to understand.
		
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Sadly people feign confusion in order to excuse their breaches of the regulations or so as they can simply do as they like and claim they did not understand. I read an article yesterday that people were saying that they still did not understand social distancing. Really, after 6 months.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The more it's clarified the more people will complain that it's too complicated. The basics are simple, no one should have a problem understanding them. *Regarding things like being able to meet down the pub but not at home doesnt need much explanation *but gets used to try and breed confusion for the sake of it.  Wash your hands, keep a space, wear a mask, no more than six, how difficult is that for people to understand.
		
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But yet you've chosen not to?  As it won't take much, please do explain to those that don't get it?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Sadly people feign confusion in order to excuse their breaches of the regulations or so as they can simply do as they like and claim they did not understand. I read an article yesterday that people were saying that they still did not understand social distancing. Really, after 6 months.
		
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Why is somebody asking a question always took as confusion? Maybe they simply want clarification. ie, Why 10pm for the pubs? Why not 8pm or 11pm? etc, questioning is not about disagreeing, but instead of others actually answering what is being asked they decide there is an agenda to the question and either deflect or turn it back on the one asking.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			But yet you've chosen not to?  As it won't take much, please do explain to those that don't get it?
		
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I didn't because I didn't think it necessary.  In places like Pubs and Restaurants the environment has to be controlled or the proprietors are liable to big fines and closure, at home no one monitors it and is open to abuse.  There is also the question of keeping the economy going which is very important to the country's well being


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## stefanovic (Sep 23, 2020)

Practice this for social distancing.


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## GB72 (Sep 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is somebody asking a question always took as confusion? Maybe they simply want clarification. ie, Why 10pm for the pubs? Why not 8pm or 11pm? etc, questioning is not about disagreeing, but instead of others actually answering what is being asked they decide there is an agenda to the question and either deflect or turn it back on the one asking.
		
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I am not talking about questioning the need for certain regulations, I question golf club dress codes all the time. What I do, however, is comply with the rule whilst questioning. What I said, and I do not think that it was unclear, is that people are breaching the rules and using ignorance as an excuse 'Sorry officer, I never knew that I could not have 50 people round for a party' etc. Take social distancing, people can question why it is needed but to say that you do not understand what it is comes across a bit odd after 6 months of it.


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## Hobbit (Sep 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is somebody asking a question always took as confusion? Maybe they simply want clarification. ie, Why 10pm for the pubs? Why not 8pm or 11pm? etc, questioning is not about disagreeing, but instead of others actually answering what is being asked they decide there is an agenda to the question and either deflect or turn it back on the one asking.
		
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You're not wrong... but why not just comply with the rule whilst its clarified? There's lots of, almost deliberately ignorant, question on the timings. Why shut at 10pm, why not just shut? Or why not just leave it alone? 

Its fairly obvious the the govt want to try and keep the economy (half) ticking over. Yes, why don't we close completely as the virus doesn't know 10pm from 8pm from midnight - and that's the ignorant question. We all know that the virus doesn't have a Rolex but if everything is shut down there'll be no economy to return to.

As for the young saying, yes but it won't affect us, and the elderly can just stay home. One question, which I hope the young will honestly answer. If you do decide you will continue to go out and "do your thing," which I don't have a problem with in isolation, will you also still be visiting your parents and grand parents, i.e. the at risk groups? Your choice, and I don't care what your answer is. But maybe you should. After all, they're your parents/grand parents, not mine.


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## GB72 (Sep 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			You're not wrong... but why not just comply with the rule whilst its clarified? There's lots of, almost deliberately ignorant, question on the timings. Why shut at 10pm, why not just shut? Or why not just leave it alone?

Its fairly obvious the the govt want to try and keep the economy (half) ticking over. Yes, why don't we close completely as the virus doesn't know 10pm from 8pm from midnight - and that's the ignorant question. We all know that the virus doesn't have a Rolex but if everything is shut down there'll be no economy to return to.

As for the young saying, yes but it won't affect us, and the elderly can just stay home. One question, which I hope the young will honestly answer. If you do decide you will continue to go out and "do your thing," which I don't have a problem with in isolation, will you also still be visiting your parents and grand parents, i.e. the at risk groups? Your choice, and I don't care what your answer is. But maybe you should. After all, they're your parents/grand parents, not mine.
		
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I always felt that one of the most potent statements that I heard is that a parent would do anything and give up anything  to keep their children fit, well and healthy and yet it seems to be too much a a stretch for the younger generation to show their parents similar care.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I am not talking about questioning the need for certain regulations, I question golf club dress codes all the time. What I do, however, is comply with the rule whilst questioning. What I said, and I do not think that it was unclear, is that people are breaching the rules and using ignorance as an excuse 'Sorry officer, I never knew that I could not have 50 people round for a party' etc. Take social distancing, people can question why it is needed but to say that you do not understand what it is comes across a bit odd after 6 months of it.
		
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Hobbit said:



			You're not wrong... but why not just comply with the rule whilst its clarified? There's lots of, almost deliberately ignorant, question on the timings. Why shut at 10pm, why not just shut? Or why not just leave it alone?

Its fairly obvious the the govt want to try and keep the economy (half) ticking over. Yes, why don't we close completely as the virus doesn't know 10pm from 8pm from midnight - and that's the ignorant question. We all know that the virus doesn't have a Rolex but if everything is shut down there'll be no economy to return to.

As for the young saying, yes but it won't affect us, and the elderly can just stay home. One question, which I hope the young will honestly answer. If you do decide you will continue to go out and "do your thing," which I don't have a problem with in isolation, will you also still be visiting your parents and grand parents, i.e. the at risk groups? Your choice, and I don't care what your answer is. But maybe you should. After all, they're your parents/grand parents, not mine.
		
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I don’t disagree with anything either of you are saying, but I don’t see anyone on this forum and only the loons on TV etc actually saying they’ll not comply with what is being asked.

If it wasn’t for people asking questions then the Government wouldn’t be amending guidance when it is practical, ie, Grandparents and Childcare being a prime example.

Unfortunately anyone questioning any of the guidance on here is immediately jumped on by a few as if those asking the question have suggested ignoring the rules.

Whether we like it or not there has been mixed messages coming from authorities at times.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I always felt that one of the most potent statements that I heard is that a parent would do anything and give up anything  to keep their children fit, well and healthy and yet it seems to be too much a a stretch for the younger generation to show their parents similar care.
		
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There we go again tarring a whole generation with the same brush, I’ve come across far more ignorant middle/old aged people over Covid than young people.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't because I didn't think it necessary.  In places like Pubs and Restaurants the environment has to be controlled or the proprietors are liable to big fines and closure, at home no one monitors it and is open to abuse.  There is also the question of keeping the economy going which is very important to the country's well being
		
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I think it’s well proven that the supposedly well supervised and better controlled venues have royally taken the proverbial previously and your assumption that because homes aren’t monitored then they won’t abide by it is out of order. 

But even if a pub abides by the rules as far as is possible, they may well have considerably more groups of up to 6, thus exponentially increasing the opportunity to spread the virus. 
So remind me again how it’s so obvious?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)




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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why is somebody asking a question always took as confusion? Maybe they simply want clarification. ie, Why 10pm for the pubs? Why not 8pm or 11pm? etc, questioning is not about disagreeing, but instead of others actually answering what is being asked they decide there is an agenda to the question and either deflect or turn it back on the one asking.
		
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Because ideally, for medical only reasons, the answer is to shut the pubs.
But we all know now that there is a trade off re medical and economy.
If people followed SD and best practice, I doubt we'd be needing these latest restrictions. But they don't. So, trying to keep the trade off reasonable they have decided to limit the opportunities to ignore SD. Pubs etc are where SD deteriorates the more that drinking continues.
Which is why pubic order problems occur at end of hours than at the beginning- fact-( ask Billyboots)
Therefore an earlier time was  eeded to be chosen. It compromised at 10pm


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			There we go again tarring a whole generation with the same brush, I’ve come across far more ignorant middle/old aged people over Covid than young people.
		
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Then you haven't been watching the same news programmes as me😀


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Because ideally, for medical,on medical only reasons, the answer is to shut the pubs.
But we all know now that there is a trade off re medical and economy.
If people followed SD and best practice, I doubt we'd be needing these latest restrictions. But they don't. So, trying to keep the trade off reasonable they have decided to limit the opportunities to ignore SD. Pubs etc are where SD deteriorates the more that drinking continues.
Which is why pubic order problems occur at end of hours than at the beginning- fact-( ask Billyboots)
Therefore an earlier time was  eeded to be chosen. It compromised at 10pm
		
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So no chance people will drink excessively in the reduced time they have and then no chance of trouble being caused!

The pub question was merely an example, but let’s be honest, stupid people will get drunk and misbehave regardless of pubs being open or shut.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Then you haven't been watching the same news programmes as me😀
		
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I see it up the Golf Club with the seniors and in shops were old people are wearing masks below the nose.

Was it only old people celebrating VE Day and taking part in the BLM Protests or on the beaches down south because I’m sure we were told they were all going to cause spikes and didn’t.


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## Reemul (Sep 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I see it up the Golf Club with the seniors and in shops were old people are wearing masks below the nose.

Was it only old people celebrating VE Day and taking part in the BLM Protests or on the beaches down south because I’m sure we were told they were all going to cause spikes and didn’t.

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I have to disagree, while about and about 90% of the people ignoring the rules are younger under 30's. Sure there are the odd elderly or middle aged but the groups, the sharing the masks, the not having masks etc etc are all younger. This might not be true across the country but it is where I liv, just walk the pubs and watch, not great outside of them either.

Last night I popped to Tesco for something we had run out of and I saw 5 people without masks, all between 18 and 25 sure they could have all had exemptions but it's not really likely is it. I then moved on to KFC, 2 people in front of me no masks age 21ish in the take out queue. It's bloody frustrating and annoying.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 23, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I have to disagree, while about and about 90% of the people ignoring the rules are younger under 30's. Sure there are the odd elderly or middle aged but the groups, the sharing the masks, the not having masks etc etc are all younger. This might not be true across the country but it is where I liv, just walk the pubs and watch, not great outside of them either.

Last night I popped to Tesco for something we had run out of and I saw 5 people without masks, all between 18 and 25 sure they could have all had exemptions but it's not really likely is it. I then moved on to KFC, 2 people in front of me no masks age 21ish in the take out queue. It's bloody frustrating and annoying.
		
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If you go past pubs after work hours you’ll see plenty of Young at the pub. 
Go at noon at prime oap fish dinner time. The demographic is the opposite of young and they too care not. In fact from what i saw during the original lockdown from the older generation my cares went to 0. Old buggers near me couldn’t help themselves but have BBQ’s and friends and family round.


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## apj0524 (Sep 23, 2020)

Today we received the dreaded email, a visitor on Saturday has tested positive so club house has been closed for a deep clean and waiting to see if I get a Track and Trace call, not really expecting to but there is a slight chance as I was in the club house after the comp on saturday when the visitor was at the club


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## road2ruin (Sep 23, 2020)

And so it begins.....our local supermarket (proper size one) is out of toilet roll!! This is exactly why the general public should not be trusted. Waiting for the flour and pasta to disappear next!!


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## Billysboots (Sep 23, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			And so it begins.....our local supermarket (proper size one) is out of toilet roll!! This is exactly why the general public should not be trusted. Waiting for the flour and pasta to disappear next!! 

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For pity’s sake. Of everything I have been witness to during the last six months, with the very obvious exception of untimely deaths the ludicrous and selfish panic buying of items like toilet roll has been by some distance the most depressing.

Rank stupidity seems to be way more contagious than the virus.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 23, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			And so it begins.....our local supermarket (proper size one) is out of toilet roll!! This is exactly why the general public should not be trusted. Waiting for the flour and pasta to disappear next!! 

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Waitrose was out of toilet roll, kitchen roll, flour and pasta on Friday. People were walking out with trollies piled full and carrying as much toilet roll as they could. HID went to both Sainsburys (to pick up prescriptions) and Waitrose to get some stuff for the in-laws and the shelves in both were pretty bare of a lot of basics


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I have to disagree, while about and about 90% of the people ignoring the rules are younger under 30's. Sure there are the odd elderly or middle aged but the groups, the sharing the masks, the not having masks etc etc are all younger. This might not be true across the country but it is where I liv, just walk the pubs and watch, not great outside of them either.

Last night I popped to Tesco for something we had run out of and I saw 5 people without masks, all between 18 and 25 sure they could have all had exemptions but it's not really likely is it. I then moved on to KFC, 2 people in front of me no masks age 21ish in the take out queue. It's bloody frustrating and annoying.
		
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I’ve given no figures of who is or isn’t to blame, simply stated all age groups have idiots and it’s wrong to put it all on the young, obviously 10% of who you’ve witnessed aren’t young and therefore we agree.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Waitrose was out of toilet roll, kitchen roll, flour and pasta on Friday. People were walking out with trollies piled full and carrying as much toilet roll as they could. HID went to both Sainsburys (to pick up prescriptions) and Waitrose to get some stuff for the in-laws and the shelves in both were pretty bare of a lot of basics
		
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Must be a Southern thing, we have extra lockdown restrictions and all items still available in shops.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think it’s well proven that the supposedly well supervised and better controlled venues have royally taken the proverbial previously and your assumption that because homes aren’t monitored then they won’t abide by it is out of order.

But even if a pub abides by the rules as far as is possible, they may well have considerably more groups of up to 6, thus exponentially increasing the opportunity to spread the virus.
So remind me again how it’s so obvious?
		
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It wont be obvious if you dont want to understand or want to take an objective stance.  

Why is it 'out of order' to suggest people at home are more open to breaking the rules than people in controlled places, its is an opinion just like yours about multiple groups of six in pubs. The important thing is to maintain a social distance, hygiene and wearing a mask where required, groups of six in a pub shouldnt be all over each other.  There is a very large increase in infections and my opinion is that it's mainly due to people not observing these common sence rules that shouldnt need much explaining.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 23, 2020)

Its the comparisons that folks try to make that I think are invidious.  Let’s simplify things completely.

Say we have decided the level of risk of infection between individuals in the community across all contexts above which we don’t want to go because once we breach that threshold the risk of pandemic spread becomes too high.  We’ll say this threshold is 10.

Lets then also make the gross assumption that all social contexts have equal risk of infection between individuals. We‘ll say each risk level is 1.  Let’s also say we can identify 20 contexts in which there is risk of infection between individuals.  Obviously as a community we can only accept 10 contexts because an 11th puts us over the threshold.  We have to choose 10 out of 20 - but they all look the same in respect of risk. Let’s say one of the scenarios we choose is called X.

I have to accept that my most likely scenarios might not be in that 10; let’s say my most likely scenario is called Y, and I would be tempted to ask why can i do X when I can’t do Y - they are identical and I don’t get the logic. The comparison is false. It’s not that X is more or less acceptable than Y in the overall risk landscape - its because we have to choose 10 contexts and aggregate the risk associated with each.  And in my simplistic example there are 10 contexts we can’t do that look just the same as 10 that we can.  That’s just what aggregated risk looks like.

It’s a cumulative thing that makes looking for logic in comparisons misguided.  The government is simply trying to define the ’10’ contexts that give us greatest and widest economic and social benefits whilst maintaining the aggregated risk beneath the threshold above which pandemic spread becomes likely.


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## Ethan (Sep 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Its the comparisons that folks try to make that I think are invidious.  Let’s simplify things completely.

Say we have decided the level of risk of infection between individuals in the community across all contexts above which we don’t want to go because once we breach that threshold the risk of pandemic spread becomes too high.  We’ll say this threshold is 10.

Lets then also make the gross assumption that all social contexts have equal risk of infection between individuals. We‘ll say each risk level is 1.  Let’s also say we can identify 20 contexts in which there is risk of infection between individuals.  Obviously as a community we can only accept 10 contexts because an 11th puts us over the threshold.  We have to choose 10 out of 20 - but they all look the same in respect of risk. Let’s say one of the scenarios we choose is called X.

I have to accept that my most likely scenarios might not be in that 10; let’s say my most likely scenario is called Y, and I would be tempted to ask why can i do X when I can’t do Y - they are identical and I don’t get the logic. The comparison is false. It’s not that X is more or less acceptable than Y in the overall risk landscape - its because we have to choose 10 contexts and aggregate the risk associated with each.  And in my simplistic example there are 10 contexts we can’t do that look just the same as 10 that we can.  That’s just what aggregated risk looks like.

It’s a cumulative thing that makes looking for logic in comparisons misguided.  The government is simply trying to define the ’10’ contexts that give us greatest and widest economic and social benefits whilst maintaining the aggregated risk beneath the threshold above which pandemic spread becomes likely.
		
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The current policy has sacrificed nuance for simplicity, so has some inconsistencies within it. One of the problems with Covid is that even if there is a finite or measurable risk to you, which you may or may not be willing to accept, you may also create risk for others, and their circumstances may be such that such a risk is unacceptable. This is the bit the anti-maskers don't get or perhaps don't care about, it isn't just all about them. The other risk is that we still don't fully understand the longer term effects. It is possible that some of the viral effects could be storing up medium term problems due to impaired immunity of inflammatory effects. If a bunch of Covid survivors start getting end stage liver failure, then the benefit-risk equation dramatically changes. Planning for the unexpected such as that is part of the precautionary principle which is the basic principle of public health. Otherwise known as hope for the best, plan for the worst. Be happy to be called overly cautious.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 23, 2020)

Just been looking at numbers on the government.uk website. Today we saw 6000 odd new cases, which sounds utterly horrific. However there were over 200000 tests on average for the last few days. COmpare that to early April where we were seeing 6000 new cases a day, but only around 20000 tests. Also on Sky news report it says scientists are estimating there were anything up to 100000 cases a day which weren't picked up due to a lack of testing/people being asymptomatic/not getting tested as they thought they just had flu
Not saying we're not in a very serious situation for one minute, but maybe its not quite as bleak as the mainstream media would have us believe?


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 23, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			For pity’s sake. Of everything I have been witness to during the last six months, with the very obvious exception of untimely deaths the ludicrous and selfish panic buying of items like toilet roll has been by some distance the most depressing.

Rank stupidity seems to be way more contagious than the virus.
		
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Totally agree. The government should instruct supermarkets to limit the amounts bought.
Don't say it can't be done. We know it can.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It wont be obvious if you dont want to understand or want to take an objective stance.
		
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I do want to understand which is why I asked the question, but unfortunately your explanations aren't helping matters.  So here's my stance on it.

Having witnessed and had to sort out a lot of what goes on in pubs over the years, I'm firmly of the opinion that the control resides with the drinkers.  It is extremely hard for licensees to bring a deal of control when they are outnumbered.  They now also have to earn a living rather than rely on furlough payments so are reluctant to upset paying customers.   

For the sake of debate, let's say that The Dog & Duck has 12 groups of 6 people in it.  Whilst people might nominally be in groups of 6 when they enter, groups going out will be aware of where their friends are going, so there will be some degree of mingling between groups, thus increasing the possibility of transference.  If I have a group of friends indoors, I think I'll have far more success in maintaining social distancing in my own house with 5 people I know than I will be maintaining social distancing in that pub I mentioned which has potentially got 66 complete strangers, regardless of how much control the licensee might have. 

But notwithstanding the group behaviour aspect, if you've got 12 groups of 6 in the pub, there are 71 potential victims for any 1 carrier to infect, or 71 potential carriers to infect any 1 victim, depending on how you prefer to look at it.  With a group of 6 in a house, it's only 5 potential victims for any 1 carrier to infect, or 5 potential carriers to infect 1 victim.  So I'm not seeing how it's safer to meet the same group of people in a pub rather than indoors. 



SocketRocket said:



			Why is it 'out of order' to suggest people at home are more open to breaking the rules than people in controlled places, its is an opinion just like yours about multiple groups of six in pubs.
		
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It's out of order in my opinion because you appear to be basing your decision purely on the degree of supervision involved, rather than the people involved.  My experience is that people who follow the rules will follow the rules, and idiots will behave like idiots regardless of whether they are being watched or not.  In fact I'd go as far as suggesting that idiots are more likely to act up if they are being watched than if they haven't got an audience to play up to.  In my experience, the probability is that there will be more behavioural issues in pubs than in houses.  Yes, just an opinion, but one based on experience of dealing with the issues.   



SocketRocket said:



			The important thing is to maintain a social distance, hygiene and wearing a mask where required, groups of six in a pub shouldnt be all over each other.  There is a very large increase in infections and my opinion is that it's mainly due to people not observing these common sence rules that shouldnt need much explaining.
		
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And it will in all probabilty people in groups in pubs, where the consumption rate tends to be greater and the awareness & inhibitions consequently lower, where the simple social distancing & hygiene rules you mention will be overlooked (intentionally or unconsciously) and the infection transmission will be more likely to increase, rather than smaller gatherings indoors.  That won't need any explaining to anyone who has spent some time dealing with the issues that occur in pubs.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2020)

Well I've downloaded the world beating moonshot NHS app or whatever it is supposed to be.  So we'll see what gives.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Just been looking at numbers on the government.uk website. Today we saw 6000 odd new cases, which sounds utterly horrific. However there were over 200000 tests on average for the last few days. COmpare that to early April where we were seeing 6000 new cases a day, but only around 20000 tests. Also on Sky news report it says scientists are estimating there were anything up to 100000 cases a day which weren't picked up due to a lack of testing/people being asymptomatic/not getting tested as they thought they just had flu
Not saying we're not in a very serious situation for one minute, but maybe its not quite as bleak as the mainstream media would have us believe?
		
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Remember that those 200,000 tests include duplicate tests on the same patient, antibody tests for past infection, surveillance of NHS staff and research tests which are not reported to the patient. The true number of people tested because of symptoms is only a fraction of that. The number of cases of Covid is rising and may start to rise much faster very soon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I do want to understand which is why I asked the question, but unfortunately your explanations aren't helping matters.  So here's my stance on it.

Having witnessed and had to sort out a lot of what goes on in pubs over the years, I'm firmly of the opinion that the control resides with the drinkers.  It is extremely hard for licensees to bring a deal of control when they are outnumbered.  They now also have to earn a living rather than rely on furlough payments so are reluctant to upset paying customers. 

For the sake of debate, let's say that The Dog & Duck has 12 groups of 6 people in it.  Whilst people might nominally be in groups of 6 when they enter, groups going out will be aware of where their friends are going, so there will be some degree of mingling between groups, thus increasing the possibility of transference.  If I have a group of friends indoors, I think I'll have far more success in maintaining social distancing in my own house with 5 people I know than I will be maintaining social distancing in that pub I mentioned which has potentially got 66 complete strangers, regardless of how much control the licensee might have.

But notwithstanding the group behaviour aspect, if you've got 12 groups of 6 in the pub, there are 71 potential victims for any 1 carrier to infect, or 71 potential carriers to infect any 1 victim, depending on how you prefer to look at it.  With a group of 6 in a house, it's only 5 potential victims for any 1 carrier to infect, or 5 potential carriers to infect 1 victim.  So I'm not seeing how it's safer to meet the same group of people in a pub rather than indoors.



It's out of order in my opinion because you appear to be basing your decision purely on the degree of supervision involved, rather than the people involved.  My experience is that people who follow the rules will follow the rules, and idiots will behave like idiots regardless of whether they are being watched or not.  In fact I'd go as far as suggesting that idiots are more likely to act up if they are being watched than if they haven't got an audience to play up to.  In my experience, the probability is that there will be more behavioural issues in pubs than in houses.  Yes, just an opinion, but one based on experience of dealing with the issues. 



And it will in all probabilty people in groups in pubs, where the consumption rate tends to be greater and the awareness & inhibitions consequently lower, where the simple social distancing & hygiene rules you mention will be overlooked (intentionally or unconsciously) and the infection transmission will be more likely to increase, rather than smaller gatherings indoors.  That won't need any explaining to anyone who has spent some time dealing with the issues that occur in pubs.
		
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Again - you can’t make assessments of the risk associated with specific social contexts based upon individual experience - you have to look at the risk associated with a context across the whole population - how the whole population is likely to act.  And then you have to look at what the context not allowed adds to the aggregated risk profile; if you are going to allow it and it takes you over the risk threshold then you have to drop something.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Totally agree. The government should instruct supermarkets to limit the amounts bought.
Don't say it can't be done. We know it can.
		
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Morrisons have reintroduced their restrictions on how much of an individual product you can buy. Maximum of 3 of any one product. Although they do have some flexibility as when they did it before I asked if I could buy 4 frozen pizzas as it's difficult shopping for a family of 4 if you can only buy three. I think as long as they can see that you aren't taking the proverbial then they will let you get what you need.


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Again - you can’t make assessments of the risk associated with specific social contexts based upon individual experience - you have to look at the risk associated with a context across the whole population - how the whole population is likely to act.  And then you have to look at what the context not allowed adds to the aggregated risk profile; if you are going to allow it and it takes you over the risk threshold then you have to drop something.
		
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Mmm, I think you're onto something with the above and your previous post. However, if an individual's experience is comprehensive across a wide spectrum of establishments surely their experiences are indeed facts. If they only went into one bar between 6pm and 7pm their experiences would be very limited and very anecdotal. But, as in BiM's 40+ years as a Police officer, I'd say his experiences are very valid, and may in fact add weight to a specific risk factor. You and I might go into one type of bar, and a 20 year old go in another type of bar. A Police officer would go in both and everything in between. 

My only other questions with the risk factors you were simplifying is what weighting you might apply to the respective age groups. Obviously take out the 20 year old chronic asthmatic and the 60 year old athlete, as they are outliers. And it would also appear to be a moving feast insomuch as the medics are saving an awful lot more people than they were in March/April.

However, in terms of creating a general set of rules, rather than 10 different sets based on age groups etc, maybe your version might form a basis for creating a one set fits all that the govt might have adopted.


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## GB72 (Sep 24, 2020)

Would be interested to hear any thoughts on what has triggered the current increase in cases. Most of the things being mentioned had been ongoing for a while without any major increase. Pubs have been open for over a month, home visits the same, shops have been fully open for even longer. The only factor that changed has been the return of kids to school. Clearly this is essential and nobody would want to close the schools again but is this the main factor in why the cases are increasing. If so, there would not seem to be much that can be done to reduce the number of cases.


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## bobmac (Sep 24, 2020)

I was driving back home through the town centre about 8am and there were school kids everywhere.
Not one mask worn and nobody making any effort to stay 2m apart.
It was just like a normal day.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Would be interested to hear any thoughts on what has triggered the current increase in cases. Most of the things being mentioned had been ongoing for a while without any major increase. Pubs have been open for over a month, home visits the same, shops have been fully open for even longer. The only factor that changed has been the return of kids to school. Clearly this is essential and nobody would want to close the schools again but is this the main factor in why the cases are increasing. If so, there would not seem to be much that can be done to reduce the number of cases.
		
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Life in general and people rushing back to a perceived normality too quickly, friend and his wife went to Belfast for a “romantic” weekend, was contacted 2 days after flight home to isolate, both are now positive for Covid-19 along with 3/4’s of those on the flight.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I was driving back home through the town centre about 8am and there were school kids everywhere.
Not one mask worn and nobody making any effort to stay 2m apart.
It was just like a normal day.
		
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They only have to wear masks in communal areas at School.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 24, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Up here there have been several large clusters centred at universities since the students returned. Who could have foreseen that?
		
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There are over 2 million students in higher education. The vast majority of them don't live at home, so are moving in with people from all over. My daughter went off to uni last week, she is fortunate in that she only has 4 in her flat - her boyfriend has moved to a house with 14 occupants. It is an absolute time bomb. The crazy thing is all lessons are online, they should have told them to stay home.


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## GB72 (Sep 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Life in general and people rushing back to a perceived normality too quickly, friend and his wife went to Belfast for a “romantic” weekend, was contacted 2 days after flight home to isolate, both are now positive for Covid-19 along with 3/4’s of those on the flight.
		
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Thing is, those sort of things have been permitted for weeks (and in some cases months) and that has not resulted in anything like the rise we have now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I was driving back home through the town centre about 8am and there were school kids everywhere.
Not one mask worn and nobody making any effort to stay 2m apart.
It was just like a normal day.
		
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They wouldn't be wearing masks wandering around though, would they? Only when people go inside and so far I have found 98% of people complying wherever I have been. In terms of distancing, I think there has been a creep on this one. The idea of 2m has almost become a memory for some.

On GB72 question, I think certain groups of people have become more lax, partly through bloody mindedness and partly through virus lockdown fatigue.


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## Robster59 (Sep 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Life in general and people rushing back to a perceived normality too quickly, friend and his wife went to Belfast for a “romantic” weekend, was contacted 2 days after flight home to isolate, both are now positive for Covid-19 along with 3/4’s of those on the flight.
		
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This.  I had to go down to Hertfordshire from Glasgow last week.  Considered flying and trains but decided to drive down as the thought of spending that time in an enclosed cabin/coach with different people didn't appeal to me.  The hotel was worrying enough although it was a reputable brand who had put lots of measures in place to minimise the risk.


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## bobmac (Sep 24, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			They only have to wear masks in communal areas at School.
		
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But not on a school bus?


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, I think you're onto something with the above and your previous post. However, if an individual's experience is comprehensive across a wide spectrum of establishments surely their experiences are indeed facts. If they only went into one bar between 6pm and 7pm their experiences would be very limited and very anecdotal. But, as in BiM's 40+ years as a Police officer, I'd say his experiences are very valid, and may in fact add weight to a specific risk factor. You and I might go into one type of bar, and a 20 year old go in another type of bar. A Police officer would go in both and everything in between.

My only other questions with the risk factors you were simplifying is what weighting you might apply to the respective age groups. Obviously take out the 20 year old chronic asthmatic and the 60 year old athlete, as they are outliers. And it would also appear to be a moving feast insomuch as the medics are saving an awful lot more people than they were in March/April.

However, in terms of creating a general set of rules, rather than 10 different sets based on age groups etc, maybe your version might form a basis for creating a one set fits all that the govt might have adopted.
		
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The main concept that underlies medicines approval is benefit-risk, that is the extent to which the likely benefits of a medicine, taking into account the probability a person will get it and the likely consequences and complications including risk of death versus the risk of the treatment in terms of adverse effects. If a medicine has a favourable benefit-risk profile, it is likely to prevent or delay death or serious ill-health at an acceptable but possibly non-zero risk, then it will likely get approved. In the case of Covid, there is a society level assessment taking place too. Some of the benefits apply differently to different parts of the population, as do the risks, but everybody or almost everybody needs to play along to deliver those benefits. Unfortunately there is not much room in that model for people to do there own thing beyond a certain level, because they impact the societal outcomes.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Would be interested to hear any thoughts on what has triggered the current increase in cases. Most of the things being mentioned had been ongoing for a while without any major increase. Pubs have been open for over a month, home visits the same, shops have been fully open for even longer. The only factor that changed has been the return of kids to school. Clearly this is essential and nobody would want to close the schools again but is this the main factor in why the cases are increasing. If so, there would not seem to be much that can be done to reduce the number of cases.
		
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The fact there is an increase was inevitable. There was always going to be one. Failure to lockdown effectively and test and trace properly meant there was a reservoir of virus bubbling away being held in check, just, by social distancing and other measures, and once those measures were relaxed, it was bound to circulate more widely again. The virus was concentrated more in population centres, not surprisingly, although London has a higher level of immunity through previous exposure than some other places, so was not proportionally affected. Then it causes local outbreaks through a mixture of dumb luck and individual acts of recklessness or carelessness allowing it to accelerate.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I was driving back home through the town centre about 8am and there were school kids everywhere.
Not one mask worn and nobody making any effort to stay 2m apart.
It was just like a normal day.
		
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Outdoors? Probably not a big problem. On the school bus, should be wearing them. My eldest's school has just reminded parents and kids that there is a mandate to that effect.


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## Old Skier (Sep 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The fact there is an increase was inevitable. There was always going to be one. Failure to lockdown effectively and test and trace properly meant there was a reservoir of virus bubbling away being held in check, just, by social distancing and other measures, and once those measures were relaxed, it was bound to circulate more widely again. The virus was concentrated more in population centres, not surprisingly, although London has a higher level of immunity through previous exposure than some other places, so was not proportionally affected. Then it causes local outbreaks through a mixture of dumb luck and individual acts of recklessness or carelessness allowing it to accelerate.
		
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But wouldn't the only really effective lockdown be that it is 100% which obviously would be impossible.  There would always be someone who is a carrier so it would always be transmitted.  Having dealt with cross contamination problems it is almost impossible to top.


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## robinthehood (Sep 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			But not on a school bus?
		
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You didn't say anything about being on  bus.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			But wouldn't the only really effective lockdown be that it is 100% which obviously would be impossible.  There would always be someone who is a carrier so it would always be transmitted.  Having dealt with cross contamination problems it is almost impossible to top.
		
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It doesn't have to be 100%, which as you say would be impossible, but the better the lockdown, the less the risk with subsequent breaches and acts of bad luck. If very very few people have the virus, having a house party is not very risky. If there is a bit more virus grumbling around, then it is much more risky. It is a probability game, and we can improve the odds with better lockdown. A lot of this tracks back to the timing of so-called lockdown in March and the unwillingness to quarantine inbound travellers.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It doesn't have to be 100%, which as you say would be impossible, but the better the lockdown, the less the risk with subsequent breaches and acts of bad luck. If very very few people have the virus, having a house party is not very risky. If there is a bit more virus grumbling around, then it is much more risky. It is a probability game, and we can improve the odds with better lockdown*. A lot of this tracks back to the timing of so-called lockdown in March and the unwillingness to quarantine inbound travellers.*

Click to expand...



It really wasn't logistically possible to do that.
These are the numbers of visitors to U.K . by air alone in 2019.
Divide by twelve for per month.
How could you quarantine such numbers ?
"
The three most used airports by international visitors to the United Kingdom in 2019 were London Heathrow, London Gatwick and London Stansted. Heathrow Airport is the UK's busiest airport and was used on more than 11 million visits by overseas residents in 2019. Airports in Wales received the fewest number of non-UK arrivals, accounting for just 129 thousand visits, while Scottish airports were used for around 1.9 million visits. "


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It really wasn't logistically possible to do that.
These are the numbers of visitors to U.K . by air alone in 2019.
Divide by twelve for per month.
How could you quarantine such numbers ?
"
The three most used airports by international visitors to the United Kingdom in 2019 were London Heathrow, London Gatwick and London Stansted. Heathrow Airport is the UK's busiest airport and was used on more than 11 million visits by overseas residents in 2019. Airports in Wales received the fewest number of non-UK arrivals, accounting for just 129 thousand visits, while Scottish airports were used for around 1.9 million visits. "
		
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You ban foreign visitors and quarantine those coming home for 2 weeks at home.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Well I've downloaded the world beating moonshot NHS app or whatever it is supposed to be.  So we'll see what gives.
		
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Hopefully third time lucky.

If that fails the Scots one seems to be working pretty well after two/three weeks.
I am sure a fee could be negotiated.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It really wasn't logistically possible to do that.
These are the numbers of visitors to U.K . by air alone in 2019.
Divide by twelve for per month.
How could you quarantine such numbers ?
"
The three most used airports by international visitors to the United Kingdom in 2019 were London Heathrow, London Gatwick and London Stansted. Heathrow Airport is the UK's busiest airport and was used on more than 11 million visits by overseas residents in 2019. Airports in Wales received the fewest number of non-UK arrivals, accounting for just 129 thousand visits, while Scottish airports were used for around 1.9 million visits. "
		
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It was possible. The US imposed a major travel ban on inward travel. Australia required all arrivals to quarantine in approved hotels. The immediate effect of a quarantine on inward arrivals would have been for many business and leisure travellers to cancel. The proportion coming in would have been much more predominantly returners, and could quarantine in their own homes, if supervised.

There are only two major objectives for a pandemic like this.

1. Stop it getting in.
2. Stop it circulating

The travel ban/quarantine tackles the first, lockdown the second.

One of the lessons we should be learning that although taking these steps is ugly, not taking them is even uglier.


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## Whereditgo (Sep 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They wouldn't be wearing masks wandering around though, would they? Only when people go inside and so far I have found 98% of people complying wherever I have been. In terms of distancing, I think there has been a creep on this one. The idea of 2m has almost become a memory for some.

On GB72 question, I think certain groups of people have become more lax, partly through bloody mindedness and partly through virus lockdown fatigue.
		
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The secondary school that my partners son attends only have to wear masks when travelling to school on the bus, no requirement at all within the school including communal areas.

Having just returned to the office from getting my lunch, I would say that less than 30% of people entering shops wear face masks, that demograph typically being between 20 and 50.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			The secondary school that my partners son attends only have to wear masks when travelling to school on the bus, no requirement at all within the school including communal areas.

Having just returned to the office from getting my lunch, *I would say that less than 30% of people entering shops wear face masks*, that demograph typically being between 20 and 50.
		
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Hugely surprised by that. How can the message not be getting through? Compliance where I live and work has been very strong in terms of mask wearing. It is such a clear thing I would have expected social peer pressure to come into play.


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## User62651 (Sep 24, 2020)

I think the new student residence hotspots show why houses/flats are the key area, people get together in close proximity out of sight with no attempt to socially distance and all touch the same door handles, kettles, booze bottles, eachother etc. Get infectious (without knowing it much of the time) over the next 2-14 days spreading it everywhere they go. CMO up here knows that people in eachothers homes are the worst from the tracing interview data hence advising Govt on the ban on going to others houses this week, for minimum 3 weeks before review, it is data led, not impulsive. Tough call but to get r rate under 1 quicker I think Scotland is right to try it, very tough on those living alone, my old mother was a bit perplexed about it. Pubs are a factor in spread yes but much lower than inside people's homes. Start with the worst spreading area first, see how the r number looks in a few weeks then tighten or ease accordingly. Targeting people at home is also the least bad economically, businesses need to operate and kids need to go to school much moreso than people socialising in groups at home.
Pubs have been open a while without too much trouble but the new spike is from schools and universities returning. Hopefully the fact the Scottish Uni's are all detecting it means test and trace is working better. Miserable for students being locked up, supposed to be some of the best years of your life. Freshers week is freshers week all aross the UK so you would think there will be similar outbreaks everywhere.
I'm just not convinced certain groups will alter their behaviour, a lot of people won't call and report breaches to police either.
This could be a long long haul.


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## rudebhoy (Sep 24, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			The secondary school that my partners son attends only have to wear masks when travelling to school on the bus, no requirement at all within the school including communal areas.

Having just returned to the office from getting my lunch, I would say that less than 30% of people entering shops wear face masks, that demograph typically being between 20 and 50.
		
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Whereabouts in East Yorkshire are you? I was in Filey and Scarborough last week, and I'd say 90%+ in shops were wearing masks.


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## DRW (Sep 24, 2020)

This article cheered me up in the current virus growth days, hope this kind of stuff is true in our countries bigger picture as well :-

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21.20198796v1

Interesting article to read tho.


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## Whereditgo (Sep 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hugely surprised by that. How can the message not be getting through? Compliance where I live and work has been very strong in terms of mask wearing. It is such a clear thing I would have expected social peer pressure to come into play.
		
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Sad to say I believe its a societal/educational issue, the area being surrounded by social and council housing - I suspect the peer pressure is working in the opposite direction to which you mean!


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			The secondary school that my partners son attends only have to wear masks when travelling to school on the bus, no requirement at all within the school including communal areas.

Having just returned to the office from getting my lunch, I would say that less than 30% of people entering shops wear face masks, that demograph typically being between 20 and 50.
		
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The guidance from the DFE clearly says you do not need to wear masks in schools. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-in-education/face-coverings-in-education   As for face mask wearing round my way in shops then to be honest the only shop I go into is my local Sainsburys and I'd say the compliance is around 90 to 95% with the odd very young child not wearing one.  But it is policed quite well as they always have someone at the entrance telling people to put their masks on.


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## Whereditgo (Sep 24, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Whereabouts in East Yorkshire are you? I was in Filey and Scarborough last week, and I'd say 90%+ in shops were wearing masks.
		
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This is an inner city area, the shops in the village where I live I would say are pretty much 100%.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 24, 2020)

Not seen this before;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ort-enlists-sniffer-dogs-to-test-for-covid-19

I've heard of them being used to detect cancer in humans, but not this.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Hugely surprised by that. How can the message not be getting through? Compliance where I live and work has been very strong in terms of mask wearing. It is such a clear thing I would have expected social peer pressure to come into play.
		
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Round my area, compliance is also very good. In my local Tesco, people without a mask are conspicuous compared to the vast majority who wear one. Likewise in shops in Reading. 


Blue in Munich said:



			Not seen this before;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ort-enlists-sniffer-dogs-to-test-for-covid-19

I've heard of them being used to detect cancer in humans, but not this.
		
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Have you never heard of a CAT scan? This is just an alternative version of that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not seen this before;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ort-enlists-sniffer-dogs-to-test-for-covid-19

I've heard of them being used to detect cancer in humans, but not this.
		
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My daughter works part time at a kennels. The woman who runs it breeds labs, Crufts standard. She was chatting to a friend last week, a fellow breeder of dogs and she has some of hers in with Durham University right now doing this. They are testing how accurate the dogs can be. Pretty accurate seems to be the answer so far. Interesting stuff.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

DRW said:



			This article cheered me up in the current virus growth days, hope this kind of stuff is true in our countries bigger picture as well :-

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21.20198796v1

Interesting article to read tho.
		
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Interesting, but I would be slightly wary of extrapolating the conclusions too much. They said that the study was carried out in healthy workers. That is a population which has fewer comorbidities and is younger than the general population. They didn't say whether the workers had been working from home or furloughed, Japanese working culture being as it is, one would assume not, therefore there is probably quite a bit of transmission between subjects in the study and we may be seeing a more concentrated seropositivity than you would expect. Losing IgM antibody is perfectly normal and to be expected, and it is not even clear whether losing IgG is an issue, maybe the T-cells take over then. 

The general conclusion that serial restringing for seropositivity is useful is absolutely fair, though, and we should do more of that here, but separate the results from the general mix of "tests".


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not seen this before;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ort-enlists-sniffer-dogs-to-test-for-covid-19

I've heard of them being used to detect cancer in humans, but not this.
		
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Ethan said:



			Have you never heard of a CAT scan? This is just an alternative version of that.
		
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Surely it's a Lab test! 🐕


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely it's a Lab test! 🐕
		
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Dogs can be used to detect psychiatric symptoms. They can easily tell when someone is barking.


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## Billysboots (Sep 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Dogs can be used to detect psychiatric symptoms. They can easily tell when someone is barking.
		
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The country’s gone to the dogs.


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## Hobbit (Sep 24, 2020)

Friend’s wife went back to the U.K. a few weeks ago. Tomorrow she will visit one of her granddaughters to say goodbye, who is Covid-19 positive, and fly back the day after. Then come out for the bowling club monthly dinner Two days later...

Really? Is that responsible?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, I think you're onto something with the above and your previous post. However, if an individual's experience is comprehensive across a wide spectrum of establishments surely their experiences are indeed facts. If they only went into one bar between 6pm and 7pm their experiences would be very limited and very anecdotal. But, as in BiM's 40+ years as a Police officer, I'd say his experiences are very valid, and may in fact add weight to a specific risk factor. You and I might go into one type of bar, and a 20 year old go in another type of bar. A Police officer would go in both and everything in between.

My only other questions with the risk factors you were simplifying is what weighting you might apply to the respective age groups. Obviously take out the 20 year old chronic asthmatic and the 60 year old athlete, as they are outliers. And it would also appear to be a moving feast insomuch as the medics are saving an awful lot more people than they were in March/April.

However, in terms of creating a general set of rules, rather than 10 different sets based on age groups etc, maybe your version might form a basis for creating a one set fits all that the govt might have adopted.
		
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Indeed contexts will have different risk ratings, and so for instance there might be a whole bunch that are double the risk of others.  You could normalise social contexts around - let’s say - two households comprising six individuals And make that Risk Index 1.  The data will tell as risk ratings for other contexts.  There may be a bundle of 2s. And indeed there may be much higher RI contexts reflecting the social behaviour and interactions of younger folk.  So a nightclub for under 40s only might have a RI of 9 😉

If the risk threshold is 10 the Government could choose to have the baselines RI 1 plus 4x2s plus one further RI 1.  And thsee could be changed according to the prevailing socio-economic and social circumstances..  But comparison questions of the sort ‘why X but not Y’ become that much easier to answer - indeed they should largely become redundant other than as a means of letting the government know that we might prefer to have X replaced by Y.  Just random thinks and I know it is way too simplistic.


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## 4LEX (Sep 24, 2020)

Really interesting reading the views from Ethan on this thread 

From my personal experiences, the only group I've seen ignoring all social distancing rules are those aged 16-21. Evening during lockdown when I was out running I witnessed dozens and dozens hanging around in groups by rivers, parks etc. The lack of Policing gave them carte blanche to do as they pleased. 

Since the pubs have been opened I've witnessed pub gardens become almost like an Ibiza Pool party, not just on the weekends but during the week. We have to accept that age bracket doesn't give a toss about anyone but themselves. I'm not digging them out as at that age I'd probably be doing the same, you have to blame to the pubs for putting profit before anything else and the authorties for allowing it to go on.

Having uni's back was a bad idea. On average it's around 2 hours a day, it could've easily been done over Zoom for a year. The fact they lose a year of the uni life is just unfortunate. Half term and Christmas are a ticking timebomb.

The lockdown wasn't strong enough and the policing of the follow up rules have been woeful. I've been to Dubai and they tape your hotel door up untill you've got a negative result. Here anyone can go to Europe, come back and no one checks if you're staying in. Laughable.


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## Beezerk (Sep 24, 2020)

Daughter had to get a test this morning, she moved into her student digs at the weekend, my daughter and her fellow flatmates have had a few nights in another apartment since then, just mingling and getting along...I'm told 
One of the lads in the other apartment tested positive the other day so they've all had to get themselves tested.
Her birthday this weekend as well


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## KenL (Sep 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hopefully third time lucky.

If that fails the Scots one seems to be working pretty well after two/three weeks.
I am sure a fee could be negotiated.

Click to expand...

Thats a political post and rubbish.
No evidence the one in Scotland (borrowed from somewhere else) is working to an extent that stopped us being put into severe restrictions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 24, 2020)

One of the guys at the Club meant to play Dalmahoy today as one of 24 guys on a society trip.
Hotel contacted them yesterday and cancelled their booking in light of recent Covid measures.

Not a happy bloke.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The country’s gone to the dogs.
		
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May need to call in the Retrievers.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 24, 2020)

My daughter has a bubble of 45 kids in year 1 plus other teachers.
But she can’t see her boyfriend indoors.
Seems mad that schools are considered safe but our house isn’t?


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## KenL (Sep 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			One of the guys at the Club meant to play Dalmahoy today as one of 24 guys on a society trip.
Hotel contacted them yesterday and cancelled their booking in light of recent Covid measures.

Not a happy bloke.
		
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No wonder.  Looks like I have no lost 3rd holiday.  Meant to be heading for a few days to East Neuk of Fife next month with another couple.  ScotGov now says not allowed.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter has a bubble of 45 kids in year 1 plus other teachers.
But she can’t see her boyfriend indoors.
Seems mad that schools are considered safe but our house isn’t?
		
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Do we shut down all schools and anywhere else people can meet to make it all equal, or should we allow as many as we want into our homes.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Friend’s wife went back to the U.K. a few weeks ago. Tomorrow she will visit one of her granddaughters to say goodbye, who is Covid-19 positive, and fly back the day after. Then come out for the bowling club monthly dinner Two days later...

Really? Is that responsible?
		
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Should someone at the club not be having a word with her and asking her not to come? No is the answer to your question.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter has a bubble of 45 kids in year 1 plus other teachers.
But she can’t see her boyfriend indoors.
Seems mad that schools are considered safe but our house isn’t?
		
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The government have said that schools, specifically primary schools, will be one of the last things to close if we go further into lockdown.  So they are not saying they are safe, they are saying with the precautions that all schools have made and the very low risk to school children, they feel they can stay open. The age of the kids in school is a big factor in the decision, whereas the government have given no age differentiation for meeting in houses and have put in blanket restrictions.  Whether there should be more age differentiation in the levels of measures is up for debate.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Friend’s wife went back to the U.K. a few weeks ago. Tomorrow she will visit one of her granddaughters to say goodbye, who is Covid-19 positive, and fly back the day after. Then come out for the bowling club monthly dinner Two days later...

Really? Is that responsible?
		
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That is highly irresponsible and if her airline knew, they would deny her boarding and the bowling club, no doubt with a few mature citizens, should do the same. Someone needs to tell her to say goodbye to granddaughter through glass.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			The government have said that schools, specifically primary schools, will be one of the last things to close if we go further into lockdown.  So they are not saying they are safe, they are saying with the precautions that all schools have made and the very low risk to school children, they feel they can stay open. The age of the kids in school is a big factor in the decision, whereas the government have given no age differentiation for meeting in houses and have put in blanket restrictions.  Whether there should be more age differentiation in the levels of measures is up for debate.
		
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Your right the kids are not really in danger ,but the teachers are going down like flies in Liverpool and many schools have closed already. Others have closed year groups only.
The government are blaming young people and the hospitality industry for the rise in cases and have their heads in the sand over schools 
While the schools remain open the cases will not go down imo.
But they need them open so people can go back to work and pay their taxes!
In the end it all comes down to money.
It’s a cynical view but one I think is correct.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do we shut down all schools and anywhere else people can meet to make it all equal, or should we allow as many as we want into our homes.
		
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We should shut down the main transmission places !
Schools are one of them , while they stay open the virus will not go away.
But the government blame  everything else. ( shut the pubs for an hour) 
That’s why we have a local lockdown ,schools are closed because the teachers have the virus not the kids.
But they keep telling us it dosnt affect kids WE KNOW THAT. But it does affect the adults in the schools.


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## KenL (Sep 25, 2020)

I'm not aware of teachers "going down like flies" at any schools in Scotland even though the cases in some areas are high and schools have had a few reported covid positive tests.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 25, 2020)

KenL said:



			I'm not aware of teachers "going down like flies" at any schools in Scotland even though the cases in some areas are high and schools have had a few reported covid positive tests.
		
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How many kids per class in those schools tho

Within 1 mile of me I have 7 primary schools... With 30 kids per class.. two - three form entry 

Also have 3 secondary schools which are 6 forms of 30-35 students 

So very densely populated

Easy for cases to rip through


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## SaintHacker (Sep 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Your right the kids are not really in danger ,but the teachers are going down like flies in Liverpool and many schools have closed already. Others have closed year groups only.
The government are blaming young people and the hospitality industry for the rise in cases and have their heads in the sand over schools
While the schools remain open the cases will not go down imo.
But they need them open so people can go back to work and pay their taxes!
In the end it all comes down to money.
It’s a cynical view but one I think is correct.
		
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How long do they stay shut for? a month? six months? a year? We can't take our children out of school for a weeks holiday as we're told how damaging it is for their education, another six months away will be absolutely catastrophic. Like everything the government are trtying to do, its not just about money, its about striking a balance


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## Hobbit (Sep 25, 2020)

Last time I spoke to our youngest daughter, a primary school teacher in Manchester, she said there were 110 classes closed around Manchester due to the virus.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 25, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



*How long do they stay shut for?* a month? six months? a year? We can't take our children out of school for a weeks holiday as we're told how damaging it is for their education, another six months away will be absolutely catastrophic. Like everything the government are trtying to do, its not just about money, its about striking a balance
		
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If someone in a class tests positive then the school talks to the local public health team and currently the advice they are giving is for the bubble to stay off school for 14 days.  Every school will have classes or bubbles not in school, everyone knows that will happen including the government. I'd argue 'using the_ 'can't take holidays in term time argument' _is not that relevant as that is referring to 'normal times' and is around ensuring kids are in school as much as possible.  Obviously if there is a strong chance the kids will spread the disease then schools do not want kids in school. In other words a cheap week in Torremolinos drinking Watney's Red Barrel is not really a good reason for a kid not to be in school.  But potential to spread the virus is. Plus schools are doing all they can to ensure the education does continue remotely if they have to go home for whatever reason.

And although it is not allowed on here any more, at times I have been critical of the government.  But in this case whilst I agree there is a financial element in this as the government do want people back at work and not at home all the time looking after their kids, I believe the government have got it right in that the kids needs their education and this should be an absolute priority, or they will be a lost generation.

To me this twitter thread is also a good as explanation as any about the rules around schools. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308481632748425216


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## pauljames87 (Sep 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			If someone in a class tests positive then the school talks to the local public health team and currently the advice they are giving is for the bubble to stay off school for 14 days.  Every school will have classes or bubbles not in school, everyone knows that will happen including the government. I'd argue 'using the_ 'can't take holidays in term time argument' _is not that relevant as that is referring to 'normal times' and is around ensuring kids are in school as much as possible.  Obviously if there is a strong chance the kids will spread the disease then schools do not want kids in school. In other words a cheap week in Torremolinos drinking Watney's Red Barrel is not really a good reason for a kid not to be in school.  But potential to spread the virus is. Plus schools are doing all they can to ensure the education does continue remotely if they have to go home for whatever reason.

And although it is not allowed on here any more, at times I have been critical of the government.  But in this case whilst I agree there is a financial element in this as the government do want people back at work and not at home all the time looking after their kids, I believe the government have got it right in that the kids needs their education and this should be an absolute priority, or they will be a lost generation.

To me this twitter thread is also a good as explanation as any about the rules around schools. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1308481632748425216

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A labour MP put a brilliant idea on twitter.. alas it's 6 months too late. Should have been said in march to bring in for now

Open schools 6 days a week with kids limited to 4 days a week. Much more social distancing available then and just a bit of joined up thinking


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## Beezerk (Sep 25, 2020)

Daughter has tested negative which is a relief, still a bit concerned though as this Covid thing seems to go through student accommodation like a wild fire.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			How long do they stay shut for? a month? six months? a year? We can't take our children out of school for a weeks holiday as we're told how damaging it is for their education, another six months away will be absolutely catastrophic. Like everything the government are trtying to do, its not just about money, its about striking a balance
		
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Yes I see that but stop blaming everything else and just admit schools are just as bad as any other setting.
It’s the constant government spin that’s annoying.
Just tell us as it is.
That’s why imo so many people are ignoring the rules.
They don’t belive a word this government are saying.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			A labour MP put a brilliant idea on twitter.. alas it's 6 months too late. Should have been said in march to bring in for now

Open schools 6 days a week with kids limited to 4 days a week. Much more social distancing available then and just a bit of joined up thinking
		
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That sounds good in practice but where do the teachers come from?
They are not allowed outside their bubble.
So an extra day would require more teachers.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That sounds good in practice but where do the teachers come from?
They are not allowed outside their bubble.
So an extra day would require more teachers.
		
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You wouldn't need any extra teachers .. teachers would work in shifts .. less kids means you need less teachers 

It does work just would need a lot to take off


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			You wouldn't need any extra teachers .. teachers would work in shifts .. less kids means you need less teachers 

It does work just would need a lot to take off
		
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Genuine question.
How would the bubbles work .?
Teachers can only mix with their own bubbles.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			You wouldn't need any extra teachers .. *teachers would work in shifts *.. less kids means you need less teachers

It does work just would need a lot to take off
		
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Teaching does not work like that.  The planning needed at secondary school would be horrendous to ensure the right teachers are in at the right time for the kids that are in that day. Also all lessons are planned so the kids need to be in 5 days a week.  Expecting teachers to plan for 4 days won't work.

And expecting teachers to do any form of long term remote learning of meaning is very challenging, as it takes time and money to do it properly. Fine for universities with large budgets, very very challenging for schools who are mostly running at full capacity in terms of resources and time with little to no spare cash.

On the surface it sounds like a simple suggestions, in reality it would involve a massive amount of planning and preparation time that schools do not have. And even if you do all the planning, time table shifting etc etc to ensure teachers are not in 6 days a week, then there is no guarantee that it would be feasible over any length of time as circumstances may well change to mean that more restrictions have to be put in place.


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## User62651 (Sep 25, 2020)

London 10pm - not tough enough?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309244883023126530


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 25, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Do we shut down all schools and anywhere else people can meet to make it all equal, or should we allow as many as we want into our homes.
		
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Spot on - I'm thinking when we ask _Why not A if B_ we need to appreciate that that would result in A *and *B - we have to look at things as A *or *B.  We can choose - or rather - the government has to chose for us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 25, 2020)

KenL said:



			Thats a political post and rubbish.
No evidence the one in Scotland (borrowed from somewhere else) is working to an extent that stopped us being put into severe restrictions.
		
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Ironically your rebuttal of DfTs post could be considered to be more political than the post itself


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## pauljames87 (Sep 25, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Teaching does not work like that.  The planning needed at secondary school would be horrendous to ensure the right teachers are in at the right time for the kids that are in that day. Also all lessons are planned so the kids need to be in 5 days a week.  Expecting teachers to plan for 4 days won't work.

And expecting teachers to do any form of long term remote learning of meaning is very challenging, as it takes time and money to do it properly. Fine for universities with large budgets, very very challenging for schools who are mostly running at full capacity in terms of resources and time with little to no spare cash.

On the surface it sounds like a simple suggestions, in reality it would involve a massive amount of planning and preparation time that schools do not have. And even if you do all the planning, time table shifting etc etc to ensure teachers are not in 6 days a week, then there is no guarantee that it would be feasible over any length of time as circumstances may well change to mean that more restrictions have to be put in place.
		
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All things that can be planned with enough notice but yes it would take a lot of planning

Trust me my mum's been a head of year at secondary school my entire life I appreciate the planning side


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## IanM (Sep 25, 2020)

My nephew's girl friend is a teacher.... I was pretty shocked when they stayed with us about how long she spent lesson planning.  

and...
I think I've held on the phone for about 3 hours this week trying to talk to the Benefits Folk about my mum going into the Care Home  - and I am ringing them to effect a cut in her allowance


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## SaintHacker (Sep 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			London 10pm - not tough enough?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309244883023126530

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Doesn't matter what the time is, 8pm 9pm 10p, the result will be the same. The only solution is to shut them completely, but then millions of people lose their livelihoods. Who'd be a politician?


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## GB72 (Sep 25, 2020)

What has confused me is what side some people are arguing on. When they say 'why is OK for pubs to open and for people to be in there but I can only have 15 people at my wedding or I can only meet 6 people at home' are they arguing that pubs should be shut or that what they want to do should be allowed. The argument seems to work both ways. 

What I suspect most of them mean is 'I am annoyed that I cannot do what I had planned to do'  and not 'for the good of the nation we should be applying stricter regulations across the board to minimise the spread of covid'


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## DRW (Sep 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			London 10pm - not tough enough?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309244883023126530

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A different take on that video, is that I only see some people on the street. Smallish groups and not all massively close to each other. Pretty safe and within the rules.

Whats the problem ? 

I have seen worse at golf clubs, bigger groups than six sitting together, prize presentations, arriving at the tee in groups, taking the pins out, shaking hands at the end and so on....and not all young people, age range from late 20s upto 70s.


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## GB72 (Sep 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			A different take on that video, is that I only see some people on the street. Smallish groups and not all massively close to each other. Pretty safe and within the rules.

Whats the problem ?

I have seen worse at golf clubs, bigger groups than six sitting together, prize presentations, arriving at the tee in groups, taking the pins out, shaking hands at the end and so on....and not all young people, age range from late 20s upto 70s.
		
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Agree with that, I stopped going to my club after the weekend before lockdown. Absolutely no compliance with the rules from large numbers of members who were old enough to know better. Interesting watching youtube golf videos to see how social distancing and various other rules seems to have lapsed over the last few weeks.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			A different take on that video, is that I only see some people on the street. Smallish groups and not all massively close to each other. Pretty safe and within the rules.

Whats the problem ?

I have seen worse at golf clubs, bigger groups than six sitting together, prize presentations, arriving at the tee in groups, taking the pins out, shaking hands at the end and so on....and not all young people, age range from late 20s upto 70s.
		
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A picture was posted on FB from a club near to me last week . It is of a visiting party from another club, around 20-25 middle aged golfers squashed together, some with arms around each other, in the bar area . Clueless for how they are grouped, clueless for posting it thinking it was a good idea. There are lots of examples I've seen of end of year comps, trophies being handed over, hand shakes all round. Bad practice is happening across the age groups.

I agree with you about the picture you are talking about.


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## KenL (Sep 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			How many kids per class in those schools tho

Within 1 mile of me I have 7 primary schools... With 30 kids per class.. two - three form entry 

Also have 3 secondary schools which are 6 forms of 30-35 students 

So very densely populated

Easy for cases to rip through
		
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Up to 33 in secondary s1 and s2.  Up to 30 in older years.


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## User62651 (Sep 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			A different take on that video, is that I only see some people on the street. Smallish groups and not all massively close to each other. Pretty safe and within the rules.

Whats the problem ?

I have seen worse at golf clubs, bigger groups than six sitting together, prize presentations, arriving at the tee in groups, taking the pins out, shaking hands at the end and so on....and not all young people, age range from late 20s upto 70s.
		
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So there's no problem there because others are worse? 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Govt have just warned about a worrying spike in covid spread, appealing to people to work from home and follow safety rules, these people are not socially distanced - 2 metres or 6' 6.5" is the height of Peter Crouch lying flat between people, hardly any are wearing masks either. If one of those people is infected and coughs then the potential for spread is very high. 
Can't discuss it further as it goes into politics but enforcing masks more widely seems necessasry, also the 10pm pub closing rule changed from 11pm seems rather pointless.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			London 10pm - not tough enough?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309244883023126530

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The reason the licencing laws were changed was in the main to stop this when all the pubs closed.
Chucking out time was a nightmare years ago. Fights for taxis etc.
Might be different now but can only see this causing trouble.
By doing this it’s gone backward and has caused a big problem .
Unintended consequences.


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## garyinderry (Sep 25, 2020)

Donegal gone to stage 3 lock down.   No one allowed to travel to play golf. 

No one allowed to leave the county without good reason. 

As it's a boarder county with the north there will quite a headache with many needing to go to work while others will be flouting the regulations.


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## DRW (Sep 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			So there's no problem there because others are worse? 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Govt have just warned about a worrying spike in covid spread, appealing to people to work from home and follow safety rules, these people are not socially distanced - 2 metres or 6' 6.5" is the height of Peter Crouch lying flat between people, hardly any are wearing masks either. If one of those people is infected and coughs then the potential for spread is very high.
Can't discuss it further as it goes into politics but enforcing masks more widely seems necessasry, also the 10pm pub closing rule changed from 11pm seems rather pointless.
		
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Until such time as masks protects the wearer and other people, they are not the solution to any virus.

You say there is a very high chance of spread in an outdoor situation if one person coughs/infected. Not sure what to say, apart from I don't agree, there is an outside chance that it may spread to maybe one other person, but you would still have to be fairly unlucky and who now coughs?, its worse than farting

You have made many assumptions about the people on the street, as I can see couples together, and (given its London) probably a lot are house or study mates and from what I can see are in groups less than 6. 

The video above is not a great example of a virus spreading situation, whereas a big group in a clubhouse is far riskier and has the potential to be a super spreader event. Hence my examples of a higher risk event in my previous post, I also wished to highlight it is not just young people, as young people seem to be getting a bashing currently, maybe just maybe its more of a reflection on the jobs they do, studying they do, what young people do ie. play and being encourage to get out and support pubs and such like.

Don't get me wrong, there are far better examples in London of non compliance, a video of people in certain pubs before kick out time would be more interesting


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## pauljames87 (Sep 25, 2020)

KenL said:



			Up to 33 in secondary s1 and s2.  Up to 30 in older years.
		
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How many is that tho total year group 66? My old school was 30 kids 6 forms so 180 a year ..5 years 900 kids then you got the 6th form that's another 200 ISH


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## DRW (Sep 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A picture was posted on FB from a club near to me last week . It is of a visiting party from another club, around 20-25 middle aged golfers squashed together, some with arms around each other, in the bar area . Clueless for how they are grouped, clueless for posting it thinking it was a good idea. There are lots of examples I've seen of end of year comps, trophies being handed over, hand shakes all round. Bad practice is happening across the age groups.

I agree with you about the picture you are talking about.
		
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I was just talking about the various golf clubs I have played at and what I have seen. 

I'm not on facebook, get that picture loaded up, lets have a lookie ?


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## DRW (Sep 25, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Donegal gone to stage 3 lock down.   No one allowed to travel to play golf.

No one allowed to leave the county without good reason.

As it's a boarder county with the north there will quite a headache with many needing to go to work while others will be flouting the regulations.
		
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It that were you are ? so no more golf for you


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 25, 2020)

The Echo is saying there 5000 children and 300 teachers in Merseyside in isolation.
So this looks like it’s going nowhere soon.


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## robinthehood (Sep 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			It that were you are ? so no more golf for you

Click to expand...

Gary in Derry?  But he'll not be nipping to Rosses point for a game.


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## KenL (Sep 25, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			The Echo is saying there 5000 children and 300 teachers in Merseyside in isolation.
So this looks like it’s going nowhere soon.
		
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Not good!


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## garyinderry (Sep 25, 2020)

DRW said:



			It that were you are ? so no more golf for you

Click to expand...


No I'm over the boarder in county derry.  Means no trips to any of the links in donegal till at least the 16th oct but I fear things may be worse across the board by then.


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## Imurg (Sep 25, 2020)

Mmmm..interesting times.
There has been a ballot of PCS members - one of the main Driving Examiner Unions.
They polled the Examiners and the results show serious H&S concerns amongst them.
86% believed it not safe for them to work
96% believed they shouldn't be forced to work
90% believe candidates should have to take a Covid test before taking their driving test
73% were prepared to take action in support of the findings.
Worth noting that not all examiners are in PCS but most are.
So if they don't think its safe and are ready to "down tools" where does that leave me.?
No tests means no point in learning.......another couple of months off.....


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## GB72 (Sep 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mmmm..interesting times.
There has been a ballot of PCS members - one of the main Driving Examiner Unions.
They polled the Examiners and the results show serious H&S concerns amongst them.
86% believed it not safe for them to work
96% believed they shouldn't be forced to work
90% believe candidates should have to take a Covid test before taking their driving test
73% were prepared to take action in support of the findings.
Worth noting that not all examiners are in PCS but most are.
So if they don't think its safe and are ready to "down tools" where does that leave me.?
No tests means no point in learning.......another couple of months off.....

Click to expand...

Results in another interesting position. If their job cannot be carried out, by their own admission, then they should be furloughed. Cannot be furloughed as the scheme has ended, they cannot work a third of their hours so do not qualify as having a viable job, only solution is that they are all made redundant. Not a fair expenditure of public money to pay them all to do nothing until their is a vaccine, which would appear to be the only solution to this.


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## garyinderry (Sep 25, 2020)

Does anyone know?  With the UK adding country after country to the quarantine list. 

How does the rest of the world view the UK?   Do they have the UK on their lists?


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## GB72 (Sep 25, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Does anyone know?  With the UK adding country after country to the quarantine list.

How does the rest of the world view the UK?   Do they have the UK on their lists?
		
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I know that Barbados now insists that visitors from the UK quarantine for 5 days on arrival. You are tested on arrival and need to pass that test and anther 4-5 days later.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 25, 2020)

GB72 said:



			What has confused me is what side some people are arguing on. When they say 'why is OK for pubs to open and for people to be in there but I can only have 15 people at my wedding or I can only meet 6 people at home' are they arguing that pubs should be shut or that what they want to do should be allowed. The argument seems to work both ways.

What I suspect most of them mean is 'I am annoyed that I cannot do what I had planned to do'  and not 'for the good of the nation we should be applying stricter regulations across the board to minimise the spread of covid'
		
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No doubt there are selfish people in the world, but we didn’t need a pandemic to prove that.

Maybe, just maybe there is a chance you are over thinking or over analysing what some are saying, maybe, just like on here, people are just wondering or “chewin the fat” etc when asking these questions and there is no ulterior motive.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



*I can see that schools should be open if possible but we all know they are a breeding ground for illness even in normal years. Lots of kids will get it and inevitably pass it on to their parents.*

Seems to me there should be restrictions on people who have kids in school to try and stop them passing it on further? Or is that a step too far? Maybe. But might help keep the schools open.
		
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OK, may be unpopular take here.  But what if the vast vast majority of pupils are not at risk of any serious illness if they do get it. And the vast majority of parents at risk either.  Then does it make sense to protect more those that are at risk, rather than further interrupting kids education, many of which are already falling behind to various extents?  I'm not 100% convinced myself, but then again I am not convinced we should be shutting schools down or restricting access either unless that is the last resort.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 25, 2020)

Another record day for positive tests, but the R number is only arounf 1.5. If I remember correctly the r number at thw height of wave 1 was around 5? If thats true thats awful lot of people who have already had it without ever being tested/being really ill or even showing symptoms 🤔


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## KenL (Sep 25, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Results in another interesting position. If their job cannot be carried out, by their own admission, then they should be furloughed. Cannot be furloughed as the scheme has ended, they cannot work a third of their hours so do not qualify as having a viable job, only solution is that they are all made redundant. Not a fair expenditure of public money to pay them all to do nothing until their is a vaccine, which would appear to be the only solution to this.
		
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Get them fitted for a proper mask and tell them to get on with it!


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## KenL (Sep 25, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think you think you’re disagreeing with me....? But I’m just musing over how we can keep schools open.
		
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We just keep them open and keep going.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mmmm..interesting times.
There has been a ballot of PCS members - one of the main Driving Examiner Unions.
They polled the Examiners and the results show serious H&S concerns amongst them.
86% believed it not safe for them to work
96% believed they shouldn't be forced to work
90% believe candidates should have to take a Covid test before taking their driving test
73% were prepared to take action in support of the findings.
Worth noting that not all examiners are in PCS but most are.
So if they don't think its safe and are ready to "down tools" where does that leave me.?
No tests means no point in learning.......another couple of months off.....

Click to expand...

Us at work in the union used these excuses to try and not have to work and get paid for it. No real fear or real concerns just wanted the time off. 🤭 until Whitehall declared us essential then we had to get on with it. 
 Funnily enough work for us has become has become our last place of freedom and normality besides home.


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## Old Skier (Sep 25, 2020)

Been out and about today and was surprised how many places aren’t using QR code’s for logging locations and people even where they had them nobody was checking if people were able to use them.

We have had them at the club since Tuesday.


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## Billysboots (Sep 25, 2020)

Been to the local for our regular early Friday evening drink.

A notice outside advises customers they won’t be admitted without a mask. You must check in at the door, strict table only service and if your bum leaves your seat for any reason your mask goes on.

All in all, very well observed by most. There will always be one or two who flout elements of it, such as not waiting to be shown to a table, but that’s life. There will never be 100% compliance with anything.


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## User62651 (Sep 26, 2020)

Widely reported new covid tracing app in Eng/Wal struggling already, seems ok in Wales but not England, can't link to certain testing facilities (NHS Eng/PHE) - why months into this are these problems not foreseeable or ironed out before making the widely available - rushed? Why is it not fully tested? Disappointing.
Outside of hard lockdowns for all or a vaccine (some way off and perhaps impossible), all we have to work with is a reliable test and trace system to gain any serious control over this virus whilst keeping life as close to normal as possible. Got to get this right.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ed-to-new-nhs-app-developers-suggest-12082178


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## Mudball (Sep 26, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Widely reported new covid tracing app in Eng/Wal struggling already, seems ok in Wales but not England, can't link to certain testing facilities (NHS Eng/PHE) - why months into this are these problems not foreseeable or ironed out before making the widely available - rushed? Why is it not fully tested? Disappointing.
Outside of hard lockdowns for all or a vaccine (some way off and perhaps impossible), all we have to work with is a reliable test and trace system to gain any serious control over this virus whilst keeping life as close to normal as possible. Got to get this right.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ed-to-new-nhs-app-developers-suggest-12082178

Click to expand...

All valid questions.. unfortunately the response would be judged as political and hence best avoided


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## SatchFan (Sep 26, 2020)

Went to my local Sainsbury's early this morning half expecting to see a longer queue with a view to panic buying. Everything was normal, everyone (staff included) were wearing a mask and everyone kept their distance. I almost enjoyed myself.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 26, 2020)

SatchFan said:



			Went to my local Sainsbury's early this morning half expecting to see a longer queue with a view to panic buying. Everything was normal, everyone (staff included) were wearing a mask and everyone kept their distance. I almost enjoyed myself.
		
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I saw one or two stupid people panic buying bog roll today. Also there seemed to have been a run on tinned tomatoes.  But other than that everything was fine and well stocked.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 26, 2020)

A question regarding the app. I went into my club after playing today, scanned the QR code. All good. Problem is, it doesn't log me out of the bar until midnight tonight . What if someone enters the bar after I have left, later tests positive?The system thinks I'm still there. That can't be right.

Fine if everyone in the bar also has the app as it could show we were not close but if someone just signs in I'm stumped. Why not allow someone to log out using the app as well as logging in?


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## bobmac (Sep 26, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Outside of hard lockdowns for all or a vaccine (some way off and perhaps impossible),
		
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Vaccines undergoing trials at Oxford University and in Germany are the most likely candidates *to be ready this year**,* experts have said, but there are also candidates being tested in the US, Russia and China. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...vaccine-coronavirus-news-when-uk-2020-update/


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## Imurg (Sep 26, 2020)

1st lesson today in something that can described as a bit more than chilly.
Fleece on, windows half open, heater on.....and it was flippin' freezing.....10°C and a 15mph wind.
Really can't wait for the cold, dark days of January.....hats, gloves, base layers and several other layers will be the order of the day....
Oh joy.....


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## robinthehood (Sep 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A question regarding the app. I went into my club after playing today, scanned the QR code. All good. Problem is, it doesn't log me out of the bar until midnight tonight . What if someone enters the bar after I have left, later tests positive?The system thinks I'm still there. That can't be right.

Fine if everyone in the bar also has the app as it could show we were not close but if someone just signs in I'm stumped. Why not allow someone to log out using the app as well as logging in?
		
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You won't actually be there though,  so your phone won't come into contact with others.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 26, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			You won't actually be there though,  so your phone won't come into contact with others.
		
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What about people who test positive who don't have the app though? If everyone has the app then I agree, no issue. If someone comes in who just signs in it doesn't know I am no longer there.


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## User62651 (Sep 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Vaccines undergoing trials at Oxford University and in Germany are the most likely candidates *to be ready this year**,* experts have said, but there are also candidates being tested in the US, Russia and China.
		
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Not sure I share your same optimism, 6 months in and look where we are, square one more or less. Late 2021 has been noted as a more realistic roll out for any anti-virus for everyone. A lot of viruses have never had a successful vaccine so nothing is guaranteed.
Test and trace is key for now but with poor systems and half the population refusing to take part or refusing to isolate when told to, it seems a bit futile.


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## Billysboots (Sep 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A question regarding the app. I went into my club after playing today, scanned the QR code. All good. Problem is, it doesn't log me out of the bar until midnight tonight . What if someone enters the bar after I have left, later tests positive?The system thinks I'm still there. That can't be right.

Fine if everyone in the bar also has the app as it could show we were not close but if someone just signs in I'm stumped. Why not allow someone to log out using the app as well as logging in?
		
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We had exactly the same discussion in the clubhouse this morning. In theory, the app is fine for telling me if I have been in proximity to someone who then tests positive. But if someone without the app tests positive, and contact tracing of everyone registered at the club then kicks in via the app, nobody anywhere has the first clue whether I have even been at the club at the same time.

I’ll happily isolate if I have definitely been in close proximity to someone, identified via the app. But I am now sitting at home. If someone is currently in the clubhouse with the virus, having merely signed a sheet of A4 to book in because they don’t have the app, and I am traced via the app and told to isolate because I happened to register there at 7.30am today, I know what the answer will be.


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## bobmac (Sep 26, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Not sure I share your same optimism, 6 months in and look where we are, square one more or less.
		
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And I don't share your pessimism.
However, my optimism is based on what scientists are saying and they have been working flat out since this started so to say we are more or less at square one is just wrong.


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## chellie (Sep 26, 2020)

I'm not using the app.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 26, 2020)

I spoke to my BiL yesterday, he lives in China. He was going out tonight, meal out, cinema, no restrictions whatsoever. He can't move between provinces without isolating but otherwise it is life as per 2019. No masks, no distancing, handshakes, hugs etc. We will get there.


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## KenL (Sep 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I spoke to my BiL yesterday, he lives in China. He was going out tonight, meal out, cinema, no restrictions whatsoever. He can't move between provinces without isolating but otherwise it is life as per 2019. No masks, no distancing, handshakes, hugs etc. We will get there.
		
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Why has it gone there given that China was the source?  Has it just run its course there?


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 26, 2020)

KenL said:



			Why has it gone there given that China was the source?  Has it just run its course there?
		
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Not entirely sure but based on chatting to him over time I would say:

Very strict lockdown, far stricter than ours
Strict isolation of people testing positive
Loosening of lockdown linked to widespread use of tech. For example, you want to go to your local shop?,  you had to show a phone app which confirmed your temperature had been taken and it was fine. To enter the shop you walked through a heat scanner or had your temperature zapped. If you failed you were refused entry. This was strictly adhered to. Every day people had to enter their health situation on the app
No mask, no going anywhere. 'Can I be exempt?' No! Mask wearing is common in the far easy anyway, no persuading needed
Strict policing of the above
Movement in and out of the country, within the country between provinces heavily restricted. You can travel but you will have to quarantine for 2 weeks afterwards, possibly in a state facility
A population that will adhere to strict rules as they believe and trust in the state

Many cultural differences that have helped China come out of this and are hindering the west. Yay for totalitarianism 😳

It would be great if your suggestion was correct. It would be a good sign for us.


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## User62651 (Sep 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not entirely sure but based on chatting to him over time I would say:

Very strict lockdown, far stricter than ours
Strict isolation of people testing positive
Loosening of lockdown linked to widespread use of tech. For example, you want to go to your local shop?,  you had to show a phone app which confirmed your temperature had been taken and it was fine. To enter the shop you walked through a heat scanner or had your temperature zapped. If you failed you were refused entry. This was strictly adhered to. Every day people had to enter their health situation on the app
No mask, no going anywhere. 'Can I be exempt?' No! Mask wearing is common in the far easy anyway, no persuading needed
Strict policing of the above
Movement in and out of the country, within the country between provinces heavily restricted. You can travel but you will have to quarantine for 2 weeks afterwards, possibly in a state facility
A population that will adhere to strict rules as they believe and trust in the state

Many cultural differences that have helped China come out of this and are hindering the west. Yay for totalitarianism 😳

It would be great if your suggestion was correct. It would be a good sign for us.
		
Click to expand...


Good to see this progress without any vaccine - good science and a compliant population seems to be key. A more liberal western society will not be able to enforce like China of course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I saw one or two stupid people panic buying bog roll today. Also there seemed to have been a run on tinned tomatoes.  But other than that everything was fine and well stocked.
		
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Panic buying apparent in our local super we went into this evening. Out of fresh veg and almost out of bog roll. Getta grip folks...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			All valid questions.. unfortunately the response would be judged as political and hence best avoided
		
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Except they will be getting asked outside of this forum when i can’t get into somewhere unless I can show that I have downloaded the app.  Yup apparently there are some finding this happening.  Or if I have had a test but can’t register a negative result - assumption is that I am therefore positive and places I have very recently been in will be flagged up as being ‘high risk’ - really?


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## chellie (Sep 26, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Out of interest, why not?

I'm not using the scottish one because it doesn't work on my phone.
		
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Don't trust it.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 26, 2020)

chellie said:



			Don't trust it.
		
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Just out of interest do you social distance and do you wear a mask?

What's your opinion on those who don't?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 26, 2020)

chellie said:



			Don't trust it.
		
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Do you trust Covid?


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 26, 2020)

chellie said:



			Don't trust it.
		
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I’d stop right there before you get verbally attacked!


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## robinthehood (Sep 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			What about people who test positive who don't have the app though? If everyone has the app then I agree, no issue. If someone comes in who just signs in it doesn't know I am no longer there.
		
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It's just going to compliment the paper system. Make it easier to check in.


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## chellie (Sep 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Just out of interest do you social distance and do you wear a mask?

What's your opinion on those who don't?
		
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Yes I do and can't  say on here or I will be banned!


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## pauljames87 (Sep 26, 2020)

chellie said:



			Yes I do and can't  say on here or I will be banned!
		
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Well people don't trust the mask advise, they think for various reasons it's either false, a way to "control us" (what the hell btw) all this etc etc. Yet we look down on them for not trusting 

Yet you don't trust an app that like the masks is for the greater good? 

The main issue with the app is the amount of people using. We need as many people are possible to use it for it to be affective.


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## fundy (Sep 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Well people don't trust the mask advise, they think for various reasons it's either false, a way to "control us" (what the hell btw) all this etc etc. Yet we look down on them for not trusting

Yet you don't trust an app that like the masks is for the greater good?

*The main issue with the app is the amount of people using*. We need as many people are possible to use it for it to be affective.
		
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The main issue with the app is that it wont recognise an NHS tests results!


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## pauljames87 (Sep 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			The main issue with the app is that it wont recognise an NHS tests results!
		
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That issue will no doubt be fixed within a few days / weeks 

But the issue of people using it on mass? Where people don't trust it. Where older generation don't use smart phones .. etc etc 

That issue isn't going to change


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## fundy (Sep 26, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That issue will no doubt be fixed within a few days / weeks

But the issue of people using it on mass? Where people don't trust it. Where older generation don't use smart phones .. etc etc

That issue isn't going to change
		
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why dont people trust it? its for exactly reasons like not recognising NHS test results on release!!!! do it properly and most wouldve trusted it on release


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## Mudball (Sep 26, 2020)

I like the App and I understand releasing features via updates. But this app team had the whole of summer to do it.  Was tested in two regions and had a massive budget. But this is an epic cock up 

1) how come an NHS app be incompatible with the NHS system which does not allow the test results to be added. 





2) Our kid footy club has changed from a different app to the NHS app for doing check-ins. The prev app allows check on and check outs. So if we train between 9 and 11, you simply scan the QR at 11 to check out. In case a Covid case checks in at 12 then it does not bother me 
Now the NHS app allows a checkin at 9, but there is no check out. It automatically checks you out at midnight or if I check-in somewhere else... WTF!! Now it will warn me if I someone goes there at 12.. 

Whoever is responsible for such things should be ...


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## KenL (Sep 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not entirely sure but based on chatting to him over time I would say:

Very strict lockdown, far stricter than ours
Strict isolation of people testing positive
Loosening of lockdown linked to widespread use of tech. For example, you want to go to your local shop?,  you had to show a phone app which confirmed your temperature had been taken and it was fine. To enter the shop you walked through a heat scanner or had your temperature zapped. If you failed you were refused entry. This was strictly adhered to. Every day people had to enter their health situation on the app
No mask, no going anywhere. 'Can I be exempt?' No! Mask wearing is common in the far easy anyway, no persuading needed
Strict policing of the above
Movement in and out of the country, within the country between provinces heavily restricted. You can travel but you will have to quarantine for 2 weeks afterwards, possibly in a state facility
A population that will adhere to strict rules as they believe and trust in the state

Many cultural differences that have helped China come out of this and are hindering the west. Yay for totalitarianism 😳

It would be great if your suggestion was correct. It would be a good sign for us.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff. Thanks.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Sep 26, 2020)

Wife got a message from sons school earlier to say there is a positive test in his class (year 2) and also year 1, so that's him at home for 14 
days.

Reception class bubble is already isolating after a positive test last week.

My mother has been waiting for a replacement hip operation and is due to get it done in a couple of weeks. The way this is heading I'm very worried this is not going to go ahead. She's really struggled mentally the last couple of years losing her mobility.


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## KenL (Sep 26, 2020)

So much for young children being unlikely to catch it or spread it.
Are the tests 100% accurate these days?


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## pauljames87 (Sep 26, 2020)

KenL said:



			So much for young children being unlikely to catch it or spread it.
Are the tests 100% accurate these days?
		
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Didn't think they were unlikely to catch it more unlikely to be effected by it?


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## drdel (Sep 26, 2020)

Just like to point out that Apple and Google are the main source of expertise involved with building the AP, can't exactly blame the ÑHS or politicians.


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## Slab (Sep 27, 2020)

Just had the annual 2 day club champs, very well attended, its a weekend stay away at resort, full events each evening, few staff had masks but that was it, temp tested multiple times entering various parts of the place
Zero distancing in effect by anyone, hugs handshakes aplenty and full free movement between bar/tables

What a release /relief after such a crappy 8 months
(no cases in general population here in 5 months, border partially reopens next week so I'm really glad our club champs was this weekend because I forsee some cases soon after flights resume despite safeguards)

p.s finished 9th


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## KenL (Sep 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Didn't think they were unlikely to catch it more unlikely to be effected by it?
		
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In Scotland (not sure about rUK) under 12s do not count when limiting numbers who can gather together.  That led me to believe that they were less likely to catch it, or more importantly, spread it to others.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 27, 2020)

KenL said:



			In Scotland (not sure about rUK) under 12s do not count when limiting numbers who can gather together.  That led me to believe that they were less likely to catch it, or more importantly, spread it to others.
		
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I don't believe that's why that rule was brought in tbh. It sounded just like was more thought out as families will most likely break

Was discussing with my mum yest and I just said the under 12 made sense because 12 is about the age you can start leaving them on there own for a few hours ... So u12s have to go with the parents 

Just seemed a more logical thought from the Scottish leaders ..


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## Mudball (Sep 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Just like to point out that Apple and Google are the main source of expertise involved with building the AP, can't exactly blame the ÑHS or politicians.
		
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I don’t think that it is completely accurate statement.  Yes the track & trace Bluetooth aspect is based on the 
Apple/Google exposure notification stack but the rest of the features are not. 
When it initially designed as an tracker+ i really liked the idea. nHS test, checkins, area info all in one app.  But this leaves open ends. Given they have spent 35m, 350k beta testing, you would expect that the basics features would already be working. This is not 

Ps: BTW, no one yet knows if the track and trace part works either. 

PPS: all this is fixable.


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## Ethan (Sep 27, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Vaccines undergoing trials at Oxford University and in Germany are the most likely candidates *to be ready this year**,* experts have said, but there are also candidates being tested in the US, Russia and China.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-...vaccine-coronavirus-news-when-uk-2020-update/

Click to expand...

The Oxford (AZ vaccine, the Pfizer/BioNTech (Germany) one and the Moderna (US)) are all good contenders with slightly different modes of action, so a decent chance of multiple success. I would personally be a bit wary of the China vaccine and wouldn't touch the Russian one with a bargepole. The transparency has been very lacking on those and they simply have not been adequately tested. Because recruitment into the studies for the other vaccines, AZ and so on, has been fast, some phase III results may be available before the end of the year and arrangements for expedited approval are underway, probably on a conditional basis. 

The bigger problem is roll out. Giving most of the people in the world a vaccine is a ginormous and unprecedented logistical issue, starting with manufacturing and distribution but also administration. Every country will have to figure out how to prioritise, likely starting with healthcare workers and the most vulnerable in care homes, as well as politicians and key donors, of course, then spilling down risk categories ending up with the young.


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## KenL (Sep 27, 2020)

Thanks Ethan.  Where would you see teachers rating in any order of priorities?


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## drdel (Sep 27, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think you misunderstand the role of the tech giants in this. Or misrepresent it for political reasons.
		
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Don't infer a political inference. Read statement by the MD of Digital Health on the API access and çross platform work by Apple and Google.


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## Ethan (Sep 27, 2020)

KenL said:



			Thanks Ethan.  Where would you see teachers rating in any order of priorities?
		
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The UK Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation have just issued their Covid vaccine prioritisation advice. Teachers are not specifically selected out: JCVI 25/09


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## Mudball (Sep 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Don't infer a political inference. Read statement by the MD of Digital Health on the API access and çross platform work by Apple and Google.
		
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Yes they use the apple/google for the contact part. The rest of the feature are developed independently. They are great features but currently not working as they should be. 
Not throwing rocks at politicians, they can’t run the country let alone an App. The app has been in testing for a while and now in general release.. surely it has to updated by now. 
The check-in feature is a bit like.. I can order an Uber, get the ride. It then drops me off somewhere but the meter keeps running till I book another one later in the day. 
The test registration is a basic requirement. The way it has been implemented, it may require them to update the testing system to provide a code rather than updating the app (unless they change the approach). Again not an impossible task if the design is more robust otherwise a case of tail wagging the dog. This should have been flagged up in beta testing in Newham and IoW.


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## KenL (Sep 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The UK Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation have just issued their Covid vaccine prioritisation advice. Teachers are not specifically selected out: JCVI 25/09

Click to expand...

Ah, OK.  A pity as I see keeping schools going as crucial to getting out of this.


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## Mudball (Sep 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The UK Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation have just issued their Covid vaccine prioritisation advice. Teachers are not specifically selected out: JCVI 25/09

Click to expand...

Tnx 4 sharing... no surprise there on priorities. I would have thought NHS hospital staff would be priority. 
I hope they are reviewing the logistics needed for this. Again Easier to deliver to NHS hospital based staff - can be rolled out as mass exercise. The challenge will be to roll out wider. Hopefully they get the army logistics specialist rather than Chris Grayling style politicians.


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## Mudball (Sep 27, 2020)

I am assuming this is not easy on uni kids... should you let them isolate in dorms or should u get them back. Interesting replies here ..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310129119666020352


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## Ethan (Sep 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am assuming this is not easy on uni kids... should you let them isolate in dorms or should u get them back. Interesting replies here ..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1310129119666020352

Click to expand...

The security guards have no legal authority to detain students in their accommodation. They may be able to deny re-entry to anyone who leaves, but that is different.


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## drdel (Sep 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Yes they use the apple/google for the contact part. The rest of the feature are developed independently. They are great features but currently not working as they should be.
Not throwing rocks at politicians, they can’t run the country let alone an App. The app has been in testing for a while and now in general release.. surely it has to updated by now.
The check-in feature is a bit like.. I can order an Uber, get the ride. It then drops me off somewhere but the meter keeps running till I book another one later in the day.
The test registration is a basic requirement. The way it has been implemented, it may require them to update the testing system to provide a code rather than updating the app (unless they change the approach). Again not an impossible task if the design is more robust otherwise a case of tail wagging the dog. This should have been flagged up in beta testing in Newham and IoW.
		
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Who is this 'they'to which you refer? Not one politician is among the programmers. 

It is easy to say 'they', but actually it means nowt until you go down the decision and design chain to the person who wrote code.


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## User62651 (Sep 27, 2020)

Seems like more and more people are choosing to ignore official advice, what next?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309988787943022592


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## Reemul (Sep 27, 2020)

The rules whatever they are are irrelevant if people will not follow them. The more people that feel they are unjust or unfair the less they will follow them. It was why it was important to get it right first time and make them clear and make sense.

Additionally until hospital cases and deaths rise a lot of people are thinking it's not that bad so why worry.

Personally it's worrying times.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 27, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems like more and more people are choosing to ignore official advice, what next?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1309988787943022592

Click to expand...

Selfish thoughtless idiots. Don't bother fining anyone caught breaking the rules like, simply add them to a database and deny them and their immediate families any free NHS treatment until the pandemic is over.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 27, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Selfish thoughtless idiots. Don't bother fining anyone caught breaking the rules like, simply add them to a database and deny them and their immediate families any free NHS treatment until the pandemic is over.
		
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Totally agree they are selfish thoughtless idiots, but punishing families? Really? Shall we do the same for smokers and alcoholics or fat people who cost the NHS?


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 27, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Selfish thoughtless idiots. Don't bother fining anyone caught breaking the rules like, simply add them to a database and deny them and their immediate families any free NHS treatment until the pandemic is over.
		
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So if I’m not a pauper and pay privately can I do what I like?


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## Old Skier (Sep 27, 2020)

Reported on Twitter that the Covid reporting test problems have now been resolved

Everyone who receives a positive test result can now log their result on the #NHSCOVID19app

A minority of people, such as hospital patients, who were unable to log their positive result will now be able to request a code when contacted by NHS Test and Trace to input on the app.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 27, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			So if I’m not a pauper and pay privately can I do what I like?
		
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Well yeah. If your rich you can pay any fine really can't you


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## Old Skier (Sep 27, 2020)

People seem to be concerned that there is no booking out feature on the app. If your phone doesn’t “talk” with the infected persons phone my understanding is you won’t be contacted and there is also a 15 min contact time or have I got it wrong.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 27, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			So if I’m not a pauper and pay privately can I do what I like?
		
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Apparently so; it's called the Dominic Cummings rule.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			People seem to be concerned that there is no booking out feature on the app. If your phone doesn’t “talk” with the infected persons phone my understanding is you won’t be contacted and there is also a 15 min contact time or have I got it wrong.
		
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That is fine if the infected person also has the app. If they don't then it comes down to the register that someone signs when they enter, a blunt instrument. 

If everyone has the app then there is no problem, it works as you describe, but if not enough do then it helps but does have weaknesses.


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## Old Skier (Sep 27, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is fine if the infected person also has the app. If they don't then it comes down to the register that someone signs when they enter, a blunt instrument.

If everyone has the app then there is no problem, it works as you describe, but if not enough do then it helps but does have weaknesses.
		
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It’s just another tool in the same way the advice and instructions that are being dished out are.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			It’s just another tool in the same way the advice and instructions that are being dished out are.
		
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True but potentially those with the app, I do, could be penalised for having it by being implicated when they are nowhere near an infected, non app, person.


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## harpo_72 (Sep 28, 2020)

I can see an issue which has been fairly pointed out, the students should not have been called to university and should have stayed at home unless they could prove they did not have a working environment. Some sources have stated the universities want to tap in to the hall of residence revenue source, which may be cynical but it feels like a valid point


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			True but potentially those with the app, I do, could be penalised for having it by being implicated when they are nowhere near an infected, non app, person.
		
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How does that happen?


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			How does that happen?
		
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Take my golf club on Saturday. I scanned the QR code when I entered the clubhouse at 12.15. I am not identified as leaving until midnight that night or until I scan another QR code that day, I didn't. I left at 1pm but the system isn't aware of this as there is no scan out option. 

Any golfer arriving who doesn't have the app will sign into a register. If they later test positive then everyone present in the club from the time they entered that may have been close to them will be notified to isolate. What if that person arrives at 1.10pm? The system doesn't know I'm no longer there. It still thinks I'm in the club. I could get a notification on my phone through the app to isolate, no discussion. 

If the person testing positive also has the app then the app will do its job and only those within 2m for 15 minutes or more will get pinged.

I've used a golf clubhouse as an example but it could be an anonymous bar, cafe, restaurant etc where no one can verify that you were not present. 

If I am not understanding this correctly then I am happy to be educated, my mind put at rest. At the moment though this is how I read it.


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## Ethan (Sep 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree they are selfish thoughtless idiots, but punishing families? Really? Shall we do the same for smokers and alcoholics or fat people who cost the NHS?
View attachment 32534

Click to expand...


This sort of statistic is a bit unhelpful. Everyone dies of something, eventually. If all other causes of death were eliminated, everyone would die of the one that was left. The genesis of cancer is complicated, but it takes place over years and is usually not preventable in a straightforward way, a few risks such as smoking and sunbathing aside. Cancer and neurodegenerative conditions such as AD are, in a way, versions of the body's ability to regenerate itself failing. The flu and pneumonia cases are most probably in the same bucket, end of life exits rather than unexpected sudden illnesses. 

So this graphic is essentially saying, so long as people still die, what is the point of trying to prevent Covid deaths? The answer is that Covid deaths are preventable. Cancer, AD and IHD are, in the same sense, not. Neither do cancer, AD and IHD spread from person to person. Cover does. Finally, death rates from cancer are falling. That doesn't mean that fewer people are dying of it, in fact more are, but they are dying later in life, so in terms of age-sex rates, these rates are falling at every age. 

Also, that Covid number can change fast. It is wrong to see Covid as a public health issue on a par with accidents at home.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Take my golf club on Saturday. I scanned the QR code when I entered the clubhouse at 12.15. I am not identified as leaving until midnight that night or until I scan another QR code that day, I didn't. I left at 1pm but the system isn't aware of this as there is no scan out option.

Any golfer arriving who doesn't have the app will sign into a register. If they later test positive then everyone present in the club from the time they entered that may have been close to them will be notified to isolate. What if that person arrives at 1.10pm? The system doesn't know I'm no longer there. It still thinks I'm in the club. I could get a notification on my phone through the app to isolate, no discussion.

If the person testing positive also has the app then the app will do its job and only those within 2m for 15 minutes or more will get pinged.

I've used a golf clubhouse as an example but it could be an anonymous bar, cafe, restaurant etc where no one can verify that you were not present.

If I am not understanding this correctly then I am happy to be educated, my mind put at rest. At the moment though this is how I read it.
		
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If I check in on a paper sheet I never actually check out at all. I dont see that the app will make a contact call anymore likely.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This sort of statistic is a bit unhelpful. Everyone dies of something, eventually. If all other causes of death were eliminated, everyone would die of the one that was left. The genesis of cancer is complicated, but it takes place over years and is usually not preventable in a straightforward way, a few risks such as smoking and sunbathing aside. Cancer and neurodegenerative conditions such as AD are, in a way, versions of the body's ability to regenerate itself failing. The flu and pneumonia cases are most probably in the same bucket, end of life exits rather than unexpected sudden illnesses.

So this graphic is essentially saying, so long as people still die, what is the point of trying to prevent Covid deaths? The answer is that Covid deaths are preventable. Cancer, AD and IHD are, in the same sense, not. Neither do cancer, AD and IHD spread from person to person. Cover does. Finally, death rates from cancer are falling. That doesn't mean that fewer people are dying of it, in fact more are, but they are dying later in life, so in terms of age-sex rates, these rates are falling at every age.

Also, that Covid number can change fast. It is wrong to see Covid as a public health issue on a par with accidents at home.
		
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Totally agree, that wasn’t the point I was trying to make.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			If I check in on a paper sheet I never actually check out at all. I dont see that the app will make a contact call anymore likely.
		
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We write the time we enter the Clubhouse upon arrival and the time we left when leaving, so in LordT’s example the Pen is mightier then the App.


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## Ethan (Sep 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree, that wasn’t the point I was trying to make.

Click to expand...

Sure, but it is common on social media to see such graphics which can downplay the potential impact of Covid by comparison with other incomparables.


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## Old Skier (Sep 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			True but potentially those with the app, I do, could be penalised for having it by being implicated when they are nowhere near an infected, non app, person.
		
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Only if you phone has been in bluetooth range with the infected person for over 15 min is my understanding so if you were not there at the same time you wont be contacted.


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## road2ruin (Sep 28, 2020)

Story in today's Times that the MP's bars are exempt from the 10pm curfew as they fall under the description of “a workplace canteen”. A disgrace if true, the expectation that we're all in this together is a complete joke and still MP's appear on the news pleading with the general public to take personal responsibility whilst they live their lives under different rules.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Only if you phone has been in bluetooth range with the infected person for over 15 min is my understanding so if you were not there at the same time you wont be contacted.
		
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But in LT's example the infected person didn't have the app so his phone won't be in range of their phone at all, according to the app. The infected person signed in on paper and LT didn't have a mechanism to sign out when he left.


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## chrisd (Sep 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This sort of statistic is a bit unhelpful. Everyone dies of something, eventually. If all other causes of death were eliminated, everyone would die of the one that was left. The genesis of cancer is complicated, but it takes place over years and is usually not preventable in a straightforward way, a few risks such as smoking and sunbathing aside. Cancer and neurodegenerative conditions such as AD are, in a way, versions of the body's ability to regenerate itself failing. The flu and pneumonia cases are most probably in the same bucket, end of life exits rather than unexpected sudden illnesses. 

So this graphic is essentially saying, so long as people still die, what is the point of trying to prevent Covid deaths? The answer is that Covid deaths are preventable. Cancer, AD and IHD are, in the same sense, not. Neither do cancer, AD and IHD spread from person to person. Cover does. Finally, death rates from cancer are falling. That doesn't mean that fewer people are dying of it, in fact more are, but they are dying later in life, so in terms of age-sex rates, these rates are falling at every age. 

Also, that Covid number can change fast. It is wrong to see Covid as a public health issue on a par with accidents at home.
		
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True !
I've been told that if my prostate cancer doesnt get any worse by the time I reach my 80's then they will not operate  - effectively  everyone dies of something, it may be the cancer but I guess it could also be bring knocked down by a bus or a head injury' on a forum meet, from an errant tee shot😁😁


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Only if you phone has been in bluetooth range with the infected person for over 15 min is my understanding so if you were not there at the same time you wont be contacted.
		
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. What baffles me in these sorts of situations, is that in attempts to report on something, brevity is used and thus the facts and understanding gets twisted and/or misunderstood. Media are notorious at it.
Few days ago a news channel 'ticker tape', (  running along the bottom of the screen) said,words to the effect, ."new app can tell you if you are near someone who is positive"
Reading that ,it gives a vision of you , with the app on your phone, being alerted as you stand near someone with Covid.
In all the reporting about this app, nowhere have I seen ( unless I've researched), the media give the full facts as to how it works.i.e what happens from when you download the app., how your phone and other phones communicate , and to what extent etc.
Prime example is the above by Old Skier. What he says is my understanding of what happens and so that being the case, many scenarios hypothesised that we have read would simply not be the case.
Why don't the media emphasise the truth instead of paraphrasing inaccuracies.? ( That is rhetorical, btw😀)

However, I do take L T point. As someone who does not go into the clubhouse etc after a round ( straight home for me), am I to understand that if I go to a hospitality place, e.g. Clubhouse and I sign in,( but don't sign out) , if someone  shown to be there at the same time later proves positive, that I am  contacted and must self isolate?


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			But in LT's example the infected person didn't have the app so his phone won't be in range of their phone at all, according to the app. The infected person signed in on paper and LT didn't have a mechanism to sign out when he left.
		
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They are 2 separate things.

The app allows you check in easier than relying on staff to take details. If anyone feels its a problem, then just use whatever system the pub etc has.

I'd also like to think there is a bit more to contact tracing then juts arbitrarily telling people to isolate as they've been in the same building as a positive test.


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## Mudball (Sep 28, 2020)

If you want to wilfully break the system, then you can always turn off the contact tracer in the app.   Another case of a good feature that can be potentially misused by Covidiots


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			They are 2 separate things.

The app allows you check in easier than relying on staff to take details. If anyone feels its a problem, then just use whatever system the pub etc has.

*I'd also like to think there is a bit more to contact tracing then juts arbitrarily telling people to isolate as they've been in the same building as a positive test.*

Click to expand...

I get that but surely the app should have a function to check out when you leave as well as check in when you arrive.

RE: the bit in bold. So would I but having seen the absolute Horlicks that has been made of contact tracing so far I'm not convinced.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Rats!  There was me thinking of putting up a marquee in my back garden for a jolly old champagne and canapes garden party - to find out that that's the sort of thing likely to see me being reported by my neighbours...sooo disappointing... 

Just as well that I've had that clarified to prevent me making silly mistakes due to misunderstanding of the rules...

Anyway - must get on with downloading the app.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Sure, but it is common on social media to see such graphics which can downplay the potential impact of Covid by comparison with other incomparables.
		
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That was my point. People making, imo, daft statements and putting up daft graphics.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Sep 28, 2020)

Looking after my 6 year old this morning, the only problem is I did a 12 hour night shift last night. A quick 2 hours sleep before my wife went work so not exactly at the top of my game right now


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## harpo_72 (Sep 28, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Looking after my 6 year old this morning, the only problem is I did a 12 hour night shift last night. A quick 2 hours sleep before my wife went work so not exactly at the top of my game right now 

Click to expand...

My little pony on the iPad it is then .... joking apart completely sympathetic to your situation, good luck.

I have to say though this app is completely dependent on technology that is shall we say “ doesn’t meet expectations “ WiFi and Bluetooth connections are indiscriminate in their abilities... I love technology but software and IT developers need to have their butts kicked for not making stuff as reliable as possible instead of falling back on excuses such as bugs and user error ... before that fraternity get upset you can click “okay” or “cancel” and go forth and multiply ( which is the general computer response to an issue!)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Looking to download the app - I have checked my iPhone 6 and I am up to date on iOS 12.4.8.  Does this support the app - my very quick research suggests not.  What am I supposed to do?  

If I am stuffed what do I do if a requirement for going into somewhere requires me to show that I have downloaded the app.  Well - they lose my custom - but that's not great...especially if my club puts in place such a requirement.


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## bobmac (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What am I supposed to do?
		
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Stay in


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Stay in
		
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Well that's not very helpful...since there is no government requirement to have the app for me to leave my house - but in any case I get the gist of your advice.  Besides - my wife also has an iPhone 6 - so that would mean we'd both have to stay in the house...yes - that'll be what we should do.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looking to download the app - I have checked my iPhone 6 and I am up to date on iOS 12.4.8.  Does this support the app - my very quick research suggests not.  What am I supposed to do? 

If I am stuffed what do I do if a requirement for going into somewhere requires me to show that I have downloaded the app.  Well - they lose my custom - but that's not great...especially if my club puts in place such a requirement.
		
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Don't buy apple? Its's hardly a old news that they love to make their older handsets obsolete.

I can't imagine anyone making the app requirement of entry, least of all golf clubs..


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## bobmac (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well that's not very helpful...since there is no government requirement to have the app for me to leave my house - but in any case I get the gist of your advice.
		
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As a reminder ....


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## DRW (Sep 28, 2020)

The chart above has got to be one of the most misleding/pointless charts, as the number of cases back in March times, was way higher.

The next week or so will be interesting, as some of the early indicators have dropped a lot from 1-2 weeks ago.

Triage/999/111 data down a lot in that time, which should over the next week/10 days, lead to a drop in PCR positives.

Fingers crossed anyway.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			They are 2 separate things.

The app allows you check in easier than relying on staff to take details. If anyone feels its a problem, then just use whatever system the pub etc has.

I'd also like to think there is a bit more to contact tracing then juts arbitrarily telling people to isolate as they've been in the same building as a positive test.
		
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I hope you are right 👍


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## Billysboots (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looking to download the app - I have checked my iPhone 6 and I am up to date on iOS 12.4.8.  Does this support the app - my very quick research suggests not.  What am I supposed to do? 

If I am stuffed what do I do if a requirement for going into somewhere requires me to show that I have downloaded the app.  Well - they lose my custom - but that's not great...especially if my club puts in place such a requirement.
		
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You should be offered the alternative option of signing in and leaving contact details.

I have the app but, if I didn’t, if any business refused me entry solely because I didn’t have a device which supports the app, and didn’t allow me to sign in as an alternative, I simply wouldn’t return. Pandemic or no pandemic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You should be offered the alternative option of signing in and leaving contact details.

I have the app but, if I didn’t, if any business refused me entry solely because I didn’t have a device which supports the app, and didn’t allow me to sign in as an alternative, I simply wouldn’t return. Pandemic or no pandemic.
		
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All well and good - but not really that much consolation.  Besides - the app was supposed to be part of an e2e world-class integrated solution for Test, Track and Trace - and neither my wife nor myself or our phones - can play a part in that world-class solution. 

Brilliant...so a lot of money (£1bn I heard mention this morning) is spent developing an all-singing all -dancing solution to cover all aspects of the 3Ts - yet it is a solution that only a specific part of the population can use.  Like so much in the work of IT and business - a solution succeeds or fails on the strength of it's weakest link.  I fear that this one will fail to meet it's primary objective.

But hey - silver lining is that some IT solution providers and a load of consultants will have made £££s out of this and with any luck they pay tax on it that will feed into the countries depleted coffers.


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## Beezerk (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All well and good - but not really that much consolation.  Besides - the app was supposed to be part of an e2e world-class integrated solution for Test, Track and Trace - and neither my wife nor myself or our phones - can play a part in that world-class solution.

Brilliant...so a lot of money (£1bn I heard mention this morning) is spent developing an all-singing all -dancing solution to cover all aspects of the 3Ts - yet it is a solution that only a specific part of the population can use.  Like so much in the work of IT and business - a solution succeeds or fails on the strength of it's weakest link.  I fear that this one will fail to meet it's primary objective.

But hey - silver lining is that some IT solution providers and a load of consultants will have made £££s out of this and with any luck they pay tax on it that will feed into the countries depleted coffers.
		
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Christ, you moan about EVERYTHING dont you 😅


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 28, 2020)

Older phones cannot download the app as they do not have the capability of accurately judging the distance required, 2m. Don't blame others for this. No one realised 5 years ago that a phone would be required to accurately bluetooth judge a 2m distance. 

This is an issue for all countries as most are using the Google/apple system.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Christ, you moan about EVERYTHING dont you 😅
		
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No I don't - but I don't like seeing or hearing something being sold to us as something that it isn't.  And so despite the assurances we were given - it isn't _the answer_.  I know _the answer_...and it's what @bobmac is evangelical about.   But many would, and do, moan about that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Consolation???

What consolation do you crave?

It's extremely simple, you use the App or you use the sign-in and out sheets if you don't have an up to date mobile.

It cant really be any simpler. 🤷‍♂️
		
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I do not _crave _ANY consolation.  If I am not able to access somewhere providing something I need because I do not have the app (hopefully that isn't going to be the case), then any pleasure or satisfaction I might get from walking away is not going to be that much consolation for me.

What would help would be if I was to get a grant from the government to enable me to upgrade my phone...  Not going to happen though is it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Older phones cannot download the app as they do not have the capability of accurately judging the distance required, 2m. Don't blame others for this. No one realised 5 years ago that a phone would be required to accurately bluetooth judge a 2m distance.

This is an issue for all countries as most are using the Google/apple system.
		
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Not _blaming _anyone - though perhaps a little less of mis-selling of the app as the _answer _would have been helpful.  Just set expectations appropriately - all that was and is required - that and a bit of explanation about how not having the app need not matter...


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 28, 2020)

Seeing as I am constantly reminded that those on benefits are spending their money on IPhone 11s and not food for their kids, an assumption may have made that most people have an up to date smart phone nowadays. Even my dad has this app on his phone, and he is really old and technophobic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seeing as I am constantly reminded that those on benefits are spending their money on IPhone 11s and not food for their kids, an assumption may have made that most people have an up to date smart phone nowadays. Even my dad has this app on his phone, and he is really old and technophobic.
		
Click to expand...

I am feeling that my children's description of me as being a 'technotard' is closer to the truth than I appreciated.  That said - I only really use my phone for calls, messaging and WhatsApp - and a little bit of 'on-line' stuff.  And that's it.  Why do I need a more up-to-date phone?  Ah - for the App


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## Mudball (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am feeling that my children's description of me as being a 'technotard' is closer to the truth than I appreciated.  That said - I only really use my phone for calls, messaging and WhatsApp - and a little bit of 'on-line' stuff.  And that's it.  Why do I need a more up-to-date phone?  Ah - for the App 

Click to expand...

I think Sunak should do a Phone Upgrade Scheme for everyone in the country..   The Govt needs to do more

(this is not a serious post before anyone gets too excited  )


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## chellie (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rats!  There was me thinking of putting up a marquee in my back garden for a jolly old champagne and canapes garden party - to find out that that's the sort of thing likely to see me being reported by my neighbours...sooo disappointing...

Just as well that I've had that clarified to prevent me making silly mistakes due to misunderstanding of the rules...

Anyway - must get on with downloading the app.
		
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https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co....-party-organiser-marquee-45-people-live-band/


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am feeling that my children's description of me as being a 'technotard' is closer to the truth than I appreciated.  That said - I only really use my phone for calls, messaging and WhatsApp - and a little bit of 'on-line' stuff.  And that's it.  Why do I need a more up-to-date phone?  Ah - for the App 

Click to expand...

You don't need the app, if you can run  it great, but there is no requirement for it.


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Christ, you moan about EVERYTHING dont you 😅
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No I don't - but I don't like seeing or hearing something being sold to us as something that it isn't.  And so despite the assurances we were given - it isn't _the answer_.  I know _the answer_...and it's what @bobmac is evangelical about.   But many would, and do, moan about that.
		
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Oh, yes you do.

I can really picture myself how you're going from venue to venue for hours in the hope of someone refusing you entry cause you do not have the app installed, just so you can throw yourself over the keyboard to tell us all about it.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You should be offered the alternative option of signing in and leaving contact details.

I have the app but, if I didn’t, if any business refused me entry solely because I didn’t have a device which supports the app, and didn’t allow me to sign in as an alternative, I simply wouldn’t return. Pandemic or no pandemic.
		
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Nobody should be refusing entry on the premise of the app on your phone though I’ve read that is what’s happening. 
They should provide you with a pen and paper.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am feeling that my children's description of me as being a 'technotard' is closer to the truth than I appreciated.  That said - I only really use my phone for calls, messaging and WhatsApp - and a little bit of 'on-line' stuff.  And that's it.  *Why do I need a more up-to-date phone?*  Ah - for the App 

Click to expand...

Nowadays security is very important. As scammers rarely get the tech aware users with the latest security.


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## Billysboots (Sep 28, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Nobody should be refusing entry on the premise of the app on your phone though I’ve read that is what’s happening.
They should provide you with a pen and paper.
		
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You’re absolutely right they shouldn’t. But I know of at least two pubs near me doing just that. You either have the app or they’re not letting you in - no option to write your details down.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You’re absolutely right they shouldn’t. But I know of at least two pubs near me doing just that. You either have the app or they’re not letting you in - no option to write your details down.
		
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I don’t blame them tbh, there is no way for the publican to check the details given are correct and there has been reports of people giving false information.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You’re absolutely right they shouldn’t. But I know of at least two pubs near me doing just that. You either have the app or they’re not letting you in - no option to write your details down.
		
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A pointless exercise as you can install it but not use it, they are simply driving away trade for no good reason.


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## IanM (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			A pointless exercise as you can install it but not use it, they are simply driving away trade for no good reason.
		
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You can use it,  I did yesterday. Walked in pub.  QR Code posted on the wall... quick flash of the phone and bingo.

Or do you mean something else?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Oh, yes you do.

I can really picture myself how you're going from venue to venue for hours in the hope of someone refusing you entry cause you do not have the app installed, just so you can throw yourself over the keyboard to tell us all about it.
		
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Really - well you might as you don't know me...

But as mentioned - @bobmac has the answer - we don't go out...


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

IanM said:



			You can use it,  I did yesterday. Walked in pub.  QR Code posted on the wall... quick flash of the phone and bingo.

Or do you mean something else?
		
Click to expand...

something else


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Nowadays security is very important. As scammers rarely get the tech aware users with the latest security.
		
Click to expand...

OK - good reasons - though I don't use my phone to pay for anything; I don't access my bank account using it; and though I can read emails I tend to not reply to any - and certainly wouldn't be clicking on any links in an email I read on my phone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			A pointless exercise as you can install it but not use it, they are simply driving away trade for no good reason.
		
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Ah - well I shall just do that...result...as I won't be having to wander around looking to be rejected for not having it downloaded


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t blame them tbh, there is no way for the publican to check the details given are correct and there has been reports of people giving false information.
		
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It’s in the government guidelines not to use it as a prerequisite of entry and collect information by other means. 

So they are breaking guidelines. 

I could go in with airplane mode on, scan the code and register a check in and nobody none the wiser and the app not working.  The app doesn’t even know my name or have my details bar the first part of my post code. 

It’s just a theory but the QR code is just text in an image so shouldn’t require any wireless connection. Wasn’t planning on going inside a pub again but I am willing to give it a go if needs be to prove.


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## Billysboots (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			A pointless exercise as you can install it but not use it, they are simply driving away trade for no good reason.
		
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Hmmm. I’m slightly puzzled as to why anyone would install such an app and then not use it. Unless, of course, they wanted to try and pull the wool over someone’s eyes simply to get into a pub by showing them the app icon and saying “I’ve got the app - mine’s a lager”. 

Easier just to use it, surely.


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## Hobbit (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not _crave _ANY consolation.  If I am not able to access somewhere providing something I need because I do not have the app (hopefully that isn't going to be the case), then any pleasure or satisfaction I might get from walking away is not going to be that much consolation for me.

What would help would be if I was to get a grant from the government to enable me to upgrade my phone...  Not going to happen though is it.
		
Click to expand...

OMG! I'm going to go out and do the Euromillions lottery! When I saw this part of the thread developing I, jokingly, said to myself Hogie will be on soon saying that the govt will have to give all those without the latest phone some Universal Credit payment to go out and buy one. I don't know whether that's a sad indictment or just plain hilarious.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Hmmm. I’m slightly puzzled as to why anyone would install such an app and then not use it. Unless, of course, they wanted to try and pull the wool over someone’s eyes simply to get into a pub by showing them the app icon and saying “I’ve got the app - mine’s a lager”.

Easier just to use it, surely.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they wouldn’t want to know they have covid because they would have to self isolate and their job only pays SSP and can’t afford to be on £93 a week?


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Hmmm. I’m slightly puzzled as to why anyone would install such an app and then not use it. Unless, of course, they wanted to try and pull the wool over someone’s eyes simply to get into a pub by showing them the app icon and saying “I’ve got the app - mine’s a lager”.

Easier just to use it, surely.
		
Click to expand...

Yes


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## williamalex1 (Sep 28, 2020)

There's a funny John Bishop video about this clever virus doing the rounds on Facebook, if someone could post it


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## Billysboots (Sep 28, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Maybe they wouldn’t want to know they have covid because they would have to self isolate and their job only pays SSP and can’t afford to be on £93 a week?
		
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It’s so comforting to know there are people out there who couldn’t care less if they gave this disease to others, those others potentially being at high risk of succumbing to it 🙄

I get that people can’t afford to be on £93 a week. But anyone whose moral compass is so skewed that they are more comfortable spreading COVID to all and sundry than being skint for a fortnight needs to have a word with themselves.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I hope you are right 👍
		
Click to expand...


Some extra guidance..

snip
<
people have noticed that while you can log in you cannot log out, and even if you soon leave the app thinks you are still there until midnight unless you log in somewhere else.
The point however of the QR scan is just to register your presence at that location rather than your proximity to someone infectious, which is registered via the Bluetooth contact-tracing feature.
If the location is later identified as a virus hotspot then an alert may be sent out to anyone who scanned a QR code there - not to self-isolate, but to be on the lookout for any symptoms of the virus.
>


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			A pointless exercise as you can install it but not use it, they are simply driving away trade for no good reason.
		
Click to expand...

Nope - just tried to download the App and I couldn't - with the message _'This application requires iOS 13.5 or later..You must update to iOS 13.5 in order to download and use this application'._

Ah well - will have to go looking for places to refuse me entry as I don't have the App    But I tried.


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## bobmac (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really - well you might as you don't know me...

But as mentioned - @bobmac has the answer - we don't go out...

Click to expand...

The initial message was to stay in unless your journey is essential, I still stick to that advice.
I am lucky, I'm retired and dont have to go to work so it's easy for me.
But if more men, women, young and old took this more seriously, we wouldn't still be in this situation.

Covid 19 death toll is now over 1 million and people are still arguing about going to the pub.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nope - just tried to download the App and I couldn't - with the message _'This application requires iOS 13.5 or later..You must update to iOS 13.5 in order to download and use this application'._

Ah well - will have to go looking for places to refuse me entry as I don't have the App    But I tried.
		
Click to expand...

you've misunderstood my post


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## Mudball (Sep 28, 2020)

We all praise Singapore on how it is containing the virus despite higher population density....    trackers and checkins are now almost mandatory..   The shortcomings of the technical solution aside, we seem to moan when we have to use an App or when we dont have to.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			you've misunderstood my post
		
Click to expand...

Ah - yes I did - sorry.  Nonetheless - I failed...and I also failed with the Scottish App for same reason (though iOS at 13.0 is all that is required for that one).  

Would MUCH prefer to be using the app than not.  But hey ho.  Until the government (or Vodafone LOL) pays for an upgrade to our phones me and my mrs will just have to do without


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## Billysboots (Sep 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			We all praise Singapore on how it is containing the virus despite higher population density....    trackers and checkins are now almost mandatory..   The shortcomings of the technical solution aside, we seem to moan when we have to use an App or when we dont have to.
		
Click to expand...

I think it’s very much a British trait. Let’s be honest, if we spent half as much time just cracking on with things as we did moaning about the whys and wherefores, life would be so much easier.


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## Mudball (Sep 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think it’s very much a British trait. Let’s be honest, if we spent half as much time just cracking on with things as we did moaning about the whys and wherefores, life would be so much easier.
		
Click to expand...

Time for a referendum on the App... settle it once and for all


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - yes I did - sorry.  Nonetheless - I failed...and I also failed with the Scottish App for same reason (though iOS at 13.0 is all that is required for that one).

Would MUCH prefer to be using the app than not.  But hey ho.  Until the government (or Vodafone LOL) pays for an upgrade to our phones me and my mrs will just have to do without 

Click to expand...

You could purchase a phone capable of running this App for as little as £50, it would also ensure you could use any other apps that upgrade their operating system, for around £140 you could buy one that is fast with a lot of memory and processing speed. I appreciate you don't use your phone a lot but technology does move on and old devices will not have the processing ability to keep up, I'm afraid this is the way of the World we live in.  

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here Hogie, just pointing out the reality.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Time for a referendum on the App... settle it once and for all
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe a second if it's the wrong result 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You could purchase a phone capable of running this App for as little as £50, it would also ensure you could use any other apps that upgrade their operating system, for around £140 you could buy one that is fast with a lot of memory and processing speed. I appreciate you don't use your phone a lot but technology does move on and old devices will not have the processing ability to keep up, I'm afraid this is the way of the World we live in.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here Hogie, just pointing out the reality.
		
Click to expand...

Actually - you have reminded me that I already have a cheap LG (Android) phone that I could use - we bought it when we were in Oz so that we could have an Oz telephone mobile number and a Telstra SIM.  That aside - as a perhaps temp measure my work phone is Android and maybe I can download the app onto that. 

...Sorted - App downloaded and installed on my Work phone...


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not _crave _ANY consolation.  If I am not able to access somewhere providing something I need because I do not have the app (hopefully that isn't going to be the case), then any pleasure or satisfaction I might get from walking away is not going to be that much consolation for me.

What would help would be if I was to get a grant from the government to enable me to upgrade my phone...  Not going to happen though is it.
		
Click to expand...

Blimey, you want the government to shell out for everything. I'm no techie but I don't think there is any new app which is likely to be fully useable by every smartphone of whatever vintage.
So, yours won't work with this app. .? Can it not download the latest software without becoming knackered? ( I understand that is the case sometimes)
If so, that's no ones fault, that's technology.
But many phones will use the app, enough to help towards what it is trying to achieve.
I do not go out to hospitality places, so I do not put myself ( apart from my household) within 2 metres of anyone for fifteen minutes at a time.
I socialise only outdoors -golf-.
I want to spend time indoors with others.  I miss doing it, particular with the family and at the Clubhouse, but that would put too many at a risk .
So I don't.
So making me an evangelist like Bobmac😀, that's my choice. 
I don't expect the government to give me a grant to do otherwise, when it's not necessary.


 ,


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## Ethan (Sep 28, 2020)

I have a relatively recent iPhone, so can download it, but I think there is a valid point to be made. It is normal practice to determine the uptakability (?) of an app by the desired target audience. For this app, you need to start with the smartphone audience, so you lose some older people and technophobes right away, then if it has to be certain platforms or reasonably recent you will lose some more, and those losses all eat into the uptake rate you require. 

Adopting a monastic life of seclusion like bobmac is doable for a short period but it starts to get difficult after a while.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Blimey, you want the government to shell out for everything. I'm no techie but I don't think there is any new app which is likely to be fully useable by every smartphone of whatever vintage.
So, yours won't work with this app. .? Can it not download the latest software without becoming knackered? ( I understand that is the case sometimes)
If so, that's no ones fault, that's technology.
But many phones will use the app, enough to help towards what it is trying to achieve.
I do not go out to hospitality places, so I do not put myself ( apart from my household) within 2 metres of anyone for fifteen minutes at a time.
I socialise only outdoors -golf-.
I want to spend time indoors with others.  I miss doing it, particular with the family and at the Clubhouse, but that would put too many at a risk .
So I don't.
So making me an evangelist like Bobmac😀, that's my choice.
I don't expect the government to give me a grant to do otherwise, when it's not necessary.


,
		
Click to expand...

My suggestion that the government funds a phone upgrade for technotards such as I was (more than just a little) T-i-C...but you never know what might be done to curry favour among the disenchanted and/or confused.  

However - almost seriously - it might actually be worthwhile sorting something for the over 70s...after all - providing a new phone would be cheaper than restoring free BBC TV licence for that age group.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Actually - you have reminded me that I already have a cheap LG (Android) phone that I could use - we bought it when we were in Oz so that we could have an Oz telephone mobile number and a Telstra SIM.  That aside - as a perhaps temp measure my work phone is Android and maybe I can download the app onto that. 

Click to expand...

 Hugh do you still have the same one as last year ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Hugh do you still have the same one as last year ? 

Click to expand...

ah - you found it Billy...must have left it in your clubhouse...


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## Mudball (Sep 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I have a relatively recent iPhone, so can download it, but I think there is a valid point to be made. It is normal practice to determine the uptakability (?) of an app by the desired target audience. For this app, you need to start with the smartphone audience, so you lose some older people and technophobes right away, then if it has to be certain platforms or reasonably recent you will lose some more, and those losses all eat into the uptake rate you require. 

Adopting a monastic life of seclusion like bobmac is doable for a short period but it starts to get difficult after a while.
		
Click to expand...

Between Apple and Android, i suspect you have 95-98% coverage of the U.K. market. You could argue the 5% is difficult to reach. 
Within that population, you need folks with a phone hardware that is capable of running the contact tracer software (which is part of the NHS App). These would be on relatively newer phones and by corollary need new software. So in theory you could have an iPhone 4 but you won’t be able to use the App. 
Not much you can do about it. It will be paper and pencil for them.


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## Ethan (Sep 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Between Apple and Android, i suspect you have 95-98% coverage of the U.K. market. You could argue the 5% is difficult to reach.
Within that population, you need folks with a phone hardware that is capable of running the contact tracer software (which is part of the NHS App). These would be on relatively newer phones and by corollary need new software. So in theory you could have an iPhone 4 but you won’t be able to use the App.
Not much you can do about it. It will be paper and pencil for them.
		
Click to expand...

That is 95% of those who have a smartphone, and of those a proportion will have an older phone or be put off by all the privacy hullaballoo. If you are selling a consumer product, you might be delighted with what is left, but if you are depending on this to rectify a dysfunctional track and trace system, that is a different matter.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is 95% of those who have a smartphone, and of those a proportion will have an older phone or be put off by all the privacy hullaballoo. If you are selling a consumer product, you might be delighted with what is left, but if you are depending on this to rectify a dysfunctional track and trace system, that is a different matter.
		
Click to expand...

You have to draw the line somewhere. 5 years seem reasonable enough.


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## KenL (Sep 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Older phones cannot download the app as they do not have the capability of accurately judging the distance required, 2m. Don't blame others for this. No one realised 5 years ago that a phone would be required to accurately bluetooth judge a 2m distance. 

This is an issue for all countries as most are using the Google/apple system.
		
Click to expand...

I do not believe that Bluetooth can judge that people (devices) are within 2 metres.

A device inside a bag full or clutter is not the same as a device sitting out in the open.

Bluetooth is simply a digital connection between  devices.  You either can or cannot transfer data between them.

Unless someone can say with all certainty, phones do not have a proximity detector that operates over Bluetooth.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Some extra guidance..

snip
<
people have noticed that while you can log in you cannot log out, and even if you soon leave the app thinks you are still there until midnight unless you log in somewhere else.
The point however of the QR scan is just to register your presence at that location rather than your proximity to someone infectious, which is registered via the Bluetooth contact-tracing feature.
If the location is later identified as a virus hotspot then an alert may be sent out to anyone who scanned a QR code there - not to self-isolate, but to be on the lookout for any symptoms of the virus.
>
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant, thank you. I feel happier reading that 👍


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			I do not believe that Bluetooth can judge that people (devices) are within 2 metres.

A device inside a bag full or clutter is not the same as a device sitting out in the open.

Bluetooth is simply a digital connection between  devices.  You either can or cannot transfer data between them.

Unless someone can say with all certainty, phones do not have a proximity detector that operates over Bluetooth.
		
Click to expand...

The whole point of this app, the reason it doesn't work on older phones, is that it can judge this distance. They are pinging against each other apparently.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is 95% of those who have a smartphone, and of those a proportion will have an older phone or be put off by all the privacy hullaballoo. If you are selling a consumer product, you might be delighted with what is left, but if you are depending on this to rectify a dysfunctional track and trace system, that is a different matter.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it the realism of the way the World has moved on though. Software development moves on and it's not possible to compile systems such that they can be used on older hardware, the processors and memory are just not up to running the processes at a speed that people would find acceptable.   It's rather like the way technology moves on in things like cars, televisions etc, we cannot expect our old models to give us the latest features.  Some phones are very expensive and out of some people's price range but there are some excellent ones at a very reasonable price that are more than capable of running the latest applications.


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## Beezerk (Sep 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The whole point of this app, the reason it doesn't work on older phones, is that it can judge this distance. They are pinging against each other apparently.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed but Ken's point was it can't tell whether you are 1M, 2M or 5M away from another phone. Or at least not that i'm aware of.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Agreed but Ken's point was it can't tell whether you are 1M, 2M or 5M away from another phone. Or at least not that i'm aware of.
		
Click to expand...

I have tile trackers in my car keys and wallet. 
Works via Bluetooth. If I misplace it I open the app and and it will tell me graphically how close I am. 

I wasn’t aware Bluetooth tech allowed that before and was just for data transfer.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I have tile trackers in my car keys and wallet.
Works via Bluetooth. If I misplace it I open the app and and it will tell me graphically how close I am.

I wasn’t aware Bluetooth tech allowed that before and was just for data transfer.
		
Click to expand...

Just basic signal strength tracking.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Agreed but Ken's point was it can't tell whether you are 1M, 2M or 5M away from another phone. Or at least not that i'm aware of.
		
Click to expand...

It uses signal strength to determine the distance.


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## Beezerk (Sep 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It uses signal strength to determine the distance.
		
Click to expand...

As already said though, there are a multitude of reasons why signal strength could vary. I'm not too fussed btw, I think I'd be worried if I was 20m from a Covid carrier never mind 2m. I'm more interested in how the technology works 👍


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## KenL (Sep 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It uses signal strength to determine the distance.
		
Click to expand...

A digital signal does not have strength, it is either received or it isn't.
A digital radio transmission  just goes garbled or cuts out.  There's no real in between.

Update.. https://forums.ghielectronics.com/t/bluetooth-measure-distance-between-two-devices/10413


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## Ethan (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			You have to draw the line somewhere. 5 years seem reasonable enough.
		
Click to expand...

OK, but this is not about denying features to part of the potential customer base, a normal commercial tradeoff, it is about giving up data and control over the pandemic that is crippling the country.


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## robinthehood (Sep 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			A digital signal does not have strength, it is either received or it isn't.
A digital radio transmission  just goes garbled or cuts out.  There's no real in between.

Update.. https://forums.ghielectronics.com/t/bluetooth-measure-distance-between-two-devices/10413

Click to expand...

Holy BT 4 batman..
Have you any idea how old that thread is ......


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## KenL (Sep 28, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Have you any idea how old that thread is ......
		
Click to expand...

Show me evidence that phones have in built capability to define otherwise.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 28, 2020)

This is all I can find on how the App “communicates” not tech savvy, but may help some.

The app is powered by an Apple and Google-developed system, using Bluetooth to keep an anonymous log of close contacts who have come within two metres of a person for 15 minutes or longer.

If two people who are using the app are in close contact to one another for more than five minutes, they will exchange keys, or Bluetooth "digital handshakes". The Bluetooth signal strength is used to measure proximity.


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## Old Skier (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All well and good - but not really that much consolation.  Besides - the app was supposed to be part of an e2e world-class integrated solution for Test, Track and Trace - and neither my wife nor myself or our phones - can play a part in that world-class solution.

Brilliant...so a lot of money (£1bn I heard mention this morning) is spent developing an all-singing all -dancing solution to cover all aspects of the 3Ts - yet it is a solution that only a specific part of the population can use.  Like so much in the work of IT and business - a solution succeeds or fails on the strength of it's weakest link.  I fear that this one will fail to meet it's primary objective.

But hey - silver lining is that some IT solution providers and a load of consultants will have made £££s out of this and with any luck they pay tax on it that will feed into the countries depleted coffers.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the world class system was for those with world class up to date equipment. You know very well that the alternative is pen and paper, you are just on one of your normal digs.


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## KenL (Sep 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It uses signal strength to determine the distance.
		
Click to expand...

If i am right, the only way for a digital device to detect distance is for a 2 way communication between the devices.  The distance could, in theory, be measured if it could measure the time it took to send the signal to all the devices in the room, receive it back and decode all the signals received back and measure the time taken from all devices.

It takes 6.6... nano seconds for light to travel 2 metres.  Not sure a phone, let's face it, designed for YouTube, tiktok etc would be capable of accurately dealing with that on an app when the phone is dealing with a lot of other apps.


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## Old Skier (Sep 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really - well you might as you don't know me...

But as mentioned - @bobmac has the answer - we don't go out...

Click to expand...

If you can afford a marquee and champagne surely you could manage a phone upgrade.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree they are selfish thoughtless idiots, but punishing families? Really? Shall we do the same for smokers and alcoholics or fat people who cost the NHS?
View attachment 32534

Click to expand...

On a slightly different tack, and given the mental health issues that lockdown and other restrictions are causing, something appears to be missing from this list;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_Kingdom

So where are the suicides in these statistics?


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## pauljames87 (Sep 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			If i am right, the only way for a digital device to detect distance is for a 2 way communication between the devices.  The distance could, in theory, be measured if it could measure the time it took to send the signal to all the devices in the room, receive it back and decode all the signals received back and measure the time taken from all devices.

It takes 6.6... nano seconds for light to travel 2 metres.  Not sure a phone, let's face it, designed for YouTube, tiktok etc would be capable of accurately dealing with that on an app when the phone is dealing with a lot of other apps.
		
Click to expand...

A phone is smarter than many computers around the world.

It can determine distance 

And it is for 15 mins or more... So yes it can easily do it.


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## KenL (Sep 28, 2020)

The golf monthly forum often takes about an hour to tell me a new post has been made on a thread I am following!


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## pauljames87 (Sep 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			The golf monthly forum often takes about an hour to tell me a new post has been made on a thread I am following!
		
Click to expand...

I'd say that's a problem with their server not the phones which are called smart phones for a reason.


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## KenL (Sep 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			A phone is smarter than many computers around the world.

It can determine distance 

And it is for 15 mins or more... So yes it can easily do it.
		
Click to expand...

Please explain how it works and knows you are within 2m rather than just being in bluetooth contact range.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			Please explain how it works and knows you are within 2m rather than just being in bluetooth contact range.
		
Click to expand...

*How does the NHS contact tracing app work?*
Contact tracing apps aim to automate the human process by using your smartphone. If successful, an app can alert people about their exposure to people infected with Covid-19 faster than human contact tracers. In theory apps could be a useful tool to quickly get people to self-isolate and limit the spread of the virus. The main issue? Contact tracing apps are new and their effectiveness is largely unproven.
The NHS contact tracing app – like other similar apps around the world – uses a form of low energy Bluetooth to identify phones nearby (these are referred to as encounters). The app uses Bluetooth signal strength between different devices to estimate the distance between people. When someone tests positive for Covid-19 the system can send out alerts to people they have had encounters with. These alerts tell people that they should self-isolate.
Not everyone will be alerted to self-isolate. Only people who have been assessed as being involved in “high-risk” encounters will be notified. High-risk contacts are determined by a few pieces of data that are fed into the app’s risk algorithm – however, generally someone is likely to be at increased risk of contracting the virus if they’ve been within two metres of someone who has tested positive for more than 15 minutes.
For calculating people’s risk scores the app uses distance (via Bluetooth strength), time around a person and details about when their symptoms started. The last of these is based on information that can be inputted into the NHS app. The distances used for calculating risk scores fall into three categories: close (within 0-2 metres), medium (2-4m) or far (further than 4m). These distances are not precise as the actual measurements may vary depending on where you are and where your phone is placed.
The NHS has detailed how its algorithm works and says the distance is measured between people every five minutes. The risk levels are calculated by how long you spend near a person across an entire day. The team behind the app is also able to change the threshold of the risk score – this threshold is based on the R number, the desire to reduce false positives, testing, and “the importance of building public trust in the value of the app”.
Very little personal information is collected by the NHS contact tracing app – it’s free to download from both Apple and Google’s app stores and people don’t need to create an account to use it. There’s no way, or need, for people to provide their name, email address, or telephone number when using the app. The app does not collect people’s location data through GPS.
When the app is opened for the first time it will ask people for a small amount of data and for permission to use a couple of a phone’s features. It asks for the first part of your postcode (SW16, for example) so NHS officials can analyse where the app is being downloaded and provide risk updates for where people live. “This data will be used to understand where the virus is spreading, and how fast it is spreading in different locations,” the NHS says.
The app will also ask for permission to use Bluetooth, so the contact tracing tech can work, and for permission to access a phone’s camera, so people can scan QR codes.
So how does the app work if it doesn’t collect personal data? The system works by using two different codes. Each day it creates a new code for your device which is stored on your phone. Then every 15 minutes it produces another random code that is shared and stored on the devices it communicates with via Bluetooth. All of these codes are deleted after 14 days.
When someone tests positive they can allow their phone to share the daily codes with other app users. The app does this by sharing the codes related to your phone with a central Department for Health and Social Care (DHSC) server that pushes the codes to every other phone with the app installed. Any codes sent to the DHSC server are deleted after 14 days. If there are matches and the risk score is high enough, people will get an alert saying they’ve been in touch with someone who tested positive.
If you book a test via the app it will generate a code that lets people link their test results with the app automatically. These test codes are deleted 24 to 48 hours after they’re created.
The app isn’t just about Bluetooth contact tracing though – this is where it differs from other apps around the world. It also allows people to check their symptoms against a list of current Covid-19 indicators provided by England’s chief medical officer. These include high temperatures, a new continuous cough, changes to sense of smell and taste, and more. Entering symptoms will result in an indication of whether someone will need to self-isolate.
The app also allows people to order a test through the NHS Test and Trace website, offers a countdown of how long people need to self-isolate for if they are doing so, and can provide risk levels in people’s local area (based on the first part of their postcode).
The way the app deviates most from others around the world is through its use of QR codes. Through an in-app camera function, which you will need to give permission to use, it is able to scan QR codes at venues and log where you have been. The government has made it possible for pubs, restaurants and other venues to create their own QR codes through a generator on its site.
Like the rest of the app, QR codes don’t send any information to a central server and they don’t store people’s personal information. They exist as a way for people to remember where they have been, in case they need to tell contact tracers their activities. The QR code function can be turned on and off in the app and it’s possible to delete the records they create.
QR code check-ins are stored on a phone for 21 days – this allows for 14 days for the virus to appear and seven days when people are most likely to be infectious.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 28, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			On a slightly different tack, and given the mental health issues that lockdown and other restrictions are causing, something appears to be missing from this list;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_Kingdom

So where are the suicides in these statistics?
		
Click to expand...

Sadly I fear the suicide figures will be horrible, lots of unseen affects we will only see in the future.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 28, 2020)

KenL said:



			A digital signal does not have strength, it is either received or it isn't.
A digital radio transmission  just goes garbled or cuts out.  There's no real in between.

Update.. https://forums.ghielectronics.com/t/bluetooth-measure-distance-between-two-devices/10413

Click to expand...

Also this thread is from 2012

Bluetooth has changed since then

We have different types of Bluetooth
I believe it's why iPhone 6 won't work with the app because it was the one before the roll out of that Bluetooth

In 2012 you could only connect to one thing at once 

My headphones can connect to two devices at once now days


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## Beezerk (Sep 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



*How does the NHS contact tracing app work?*
Contact tracing apps aim to automate the human process by using your smartphone. If successful, an app can alert people about their exposure to people infected with Covid-19 faster than human contact tracers. In theory apps could be a useful tool to quickly get people to self-isolate and limit the spread of the virus. The main issue? Contact tracing apps are new and their effectiveness is largely unproven.
The NHS contact tracing app – like other similar apps around the world – uses a form of low energy Bluetooth to identify phones nearby (these are referred to as encounters). The app uses Bluetooth signal strength between different devices to estimate the distance between people. When someone tests positive for Covid-19 the system can send out alerts to people they have had encounters with. These alerts tell people that they should self-isolate.
Not everyone will be alerted to self-isolate. Only people who have been assessed as being involved in “high-risk” encounters will be notified. High-risk contacts are determined by a few pieces of data that are fed into the app’s risk algorithm – however, generally someone is likely to be at increased risk of contracting the virus if they’ve been within two metres of someone who has tested positive for more than 15 minutes.
For calculating people’s risk scores the app uses distance (via Bluetooth strength), time around a person and details about when their symptoms started. The last of these is based on information that can be inputted into the NHS app. The distances used for calculating risk scores fall into three categories: close (within 0-2 metres), medium (2-4m) or far (further than 4m). These distances are not precise as the actual measurements may vary depending on where you are and where your phone is placed.
The NHS has detailed how its algorithm works and says the distance is measured between people every five minutes. The risk levels are calculated by how long you spend near a person across an entire day. The team behind the app is also able to change the threshold of the risk score – this threshold is based on the R number, the desire to reduce false positives, testing, and “the importance of building public trust in the value of the app”.
Very little personal information is collected by the NHS contact tracing app – it’s free to download from both Apple and Google’s app stores and people don’t need to create an account to use it. There’s no way, or need, for people to provide their name, email address, or telephone number when using the app. The app does not collect people’s location data through GPS.
When the app is opened for the first time it will ask people for a small amount of data and for permission to use a couple of a phone’s features. It asks for the first part of your postcode (SW16, for example) so NHS officials can analyse where the app is being downloaded and provide risk updates for where people live. “This data will be used to understand where the virus is spreading, and how fast it is spreading in different locations,” the NHS says.
The app will also ask for permission to use Bluetooth, so the contact tracing tech can work, and for permission to access a phone’s camera, so people can scan QR codes.
So how does the app work if it doesn’t collect personal data? The system works by using two different codes. Each day it creates a new code for your device which is stored on your phone. Then every 15 minutes it produces another random code that is shared and stored on the devices it communicates with via Bluetooth. All of these codes are deleted after 14 days.
When someone tests positive they can allow their phone to share the daily codes with other app users. The app does this by sharing the codes related to your phone with a central Department for Health and Social Care (DHSC) server that pushes the codes to every other phone with the app installed. Any codes sent to the DHSC server are deleted after 14 days. If there are matches and the risk score is high enough, people will get an alert saying they’ve been in touch with someone who tested positive.
If you book a test via the app it will generate a code that lets people link their test results with the app automatically. These test codes are deleted 24 to 48 hours after they’re created.
The app isn’t just about Bluetooth contact tracing though – this is where it differs from other apps around the world. It also allows people to check their symptoms against a list of current Covid-19 indicators provided by England’s chief medical officer. These include high temperatures, a new continuous cough, changes to sense of smell and taste, and more. Entering symptoms will result in an indication of whether someone will need to self-isolate.
The app also allows people to order a test through the NHS Test and Trace website, offers a countdown of how long people need to self-isolate for if they are doing so, and can provide risk levels in people’s local area (based on the first part of their postcode).
The way the app deviates most from others around the world is through its use of QR codes. Through an in-app camera function, which you will need to give permission to use, it is able to scan QR codes at venues and log where you have been. The government has made it possible for pubs, restaurants and other venues to create their own QR codes through a generator on its site.
Like the rest of the app, QR codes don’t send any information to a central server and they don’t store people’s personal information. They exist as a way for people to remember where they have been, in case they need to tell contact tracers their activities. The QR code function can be turned on and off in the app and it’s possible to delete the records they create.
QR code check-ins are stored on a phone for 21 days – this allows for 14 days for the virus to appear and seven days when people are most likely to be infectious.
		
Click to expand...

That's great, but I need more than an NHS press release to understand exactly how this "low energy Bluetooth" works.
I've never heard of that before and every website I've read says bluetooth cannot measure distance without lots of other devices sort of triangulating it. I'm just a nerd trying to fully understand how this works really 😅


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## pauljames87 (Sep 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			That's great, but I need more than an NHS press release to understand exactly how this "low energy Bluetooth" works.
I've never heard of that before and every website I've read says bluetooth cannot measure distance without lots of other devices sort of triangulating it. I'm just a nerd trying to fully understand how this works really 😅
		
Click to expand...

Bluetooth 5.1 What’s New?
The main feature that differs Bluetooth 5.1 from other versions of Bluetooth is the direction signal. From the previous versions of Bluetooth like the Bluetooth 5.0, you can only see the distance of your connected devices by how strong the signal is. But Bluetooth 5.1 not just calculate the distance, it also shows the direction to your connected device. There are also some new features added to Bluetooth 5.1 which are stated here


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



*How does the NHS contact tracing app work?*
Contact tracing apps aim to automate the human process by using your smartphone. If successful, an app can alert people about their exposure to people infected with Covid-19 faster than human contact tracers. In theory apps could be a useful tool to quickly get people to self-isolate and limit the spread of the virus. The main issue? Contact tracing apps are new and their effectiveness is largely unproven.
The NHS contact tracing app – like other similar apps around the world – uses a form of low energy Bluetooth to identify phones nearby (these are referred to as encounters). The app uses Bluetooth signal strength between different devices to estimate the distance between people. When someone tests positive for Covid-19 the system can send out alerts to people they have had encounters with. These alerts tell people that they should self-isolate.
Not everyone will be alerted to self-isolate. Only people who have been assessed as being involved in “high-risk” encounters will be notified. High-risk contacts are determined by a few pieces of data that are fed into the app’s risk algorithm – however, generally someone is likely to be at increased risk of contracting the virus if they’ve been within two metres of someone who has tested positive for more than 15 minutes.
For calculating people’s risk scores the app uses distance (via Bluetooth strength), time around a person and details about when their symptoms started. The last of these is based on information that can be inputted into the NHS app. The distances used for calculating risk scores fall into three categories: close (within 0-2 metres), medium (2-4m) or far (further than 4m). These distances are not precise as the actual measurements may vary depending on where you are and where your phone is placed.
The NHS has detailed how its algorithm works and says the distance is measured between people every five minutes. The risk levels are calculated by how long you spend near a person across an entire day. The team behind the app is also able to change the threshold of the risk score – this threshold is based on the R number, the desire to reduce false positives, testing, and “the importance of building public trust in the value of the app”.
Very little personal information is collected by the NHS contact tracing app – it’s free to download from both Apple and Google’s app stores and people don’t need to create an account to use it. There’s no way, or need, for people to provide their name, email address, or telephone number when using the app. The app does not collect people’s location data through GPS.
When the app is opened for the first time it will ask people for a small amount of data and for permission to use a couple of a phone’s features. It asks for the first part of your postcode (SW16, for example) so NHS officials can analyse where the app is being downloaded and provide risk updates for where people live. “This data will be used to understand where the virus is spreading, and how fast it is spreading in different locations,” the NHS says.
The app will also ask for permission to use Bluetooth, so the contact tracing tech can work, and for permission to access a phone’s camera, so people can scan QR codes.
So how does the app work if it doesn’t collect personal data? The system works by using two different codes. Each day it creates a new code for your device which is stored on your phone. Then every 15 minutes it produces another random code that is shared and stored on the devices it communicates with via Bluetooth. All of these codes are deleted after 14 days.
When someone tests positive they can allow their phone to share the daily codes with other app users. The app does this by sharing the codes related to your phone with a central Department for Health and Social Care (DHSC) server that pushes the codes to every other phone with the app installed. Any codes sent to the DHSC server are deleted after 14 days. If there are matches and the risk score is high enough, people will get an alert saying they’ve been in touch with someone who tested positive.
If you book a test via the app it will generate a code that lets people link their test results with the app automatically. These test codes are deleted 24 to 48 hours after they’re created.
The app isn’t just about Bluetooth contact tracing though – this is where it differs from other apps around the world. It also allows people to check their symptoms against a list of current Covid-19 indicators provided by England’s chief medical officer. These include high temperatures, a new continuous cough, changes to sense of smell and taste, and more. Entering symptoms will result in an indication of whether someone will need to self-isolate.
The app also allows people to order a test through the NHS Test and Trace website, offers a countdown of how long people need to self-isolate for if they are doing so, and can provide risk levels in people’s local area (based on the first part of their postcode).
The way the app deviates most from others around the world is through its use of QR codes. Through an in-app camera function, which you will need to give permission to use, it is able to scan QR codes at venues and log where you have been. The government has made it possible for pubs, restaurants and other venues to create their own QR codes through a generator on its site.
Like the rest of the app, QR codes don’t send any information to a central server and they don’t store people’s personal information. They exist as a way for people to remember where they have been, in case they need to tell contact tracers their activities. The QR code function can be turned on and off in the app and it’s possible to delete the records they create.
QR code check-ins are stored on a phone for 21 days – this allows for 14 days for the virus to appear and seven days when people are most likely to be infectious.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for this. If I may ask a question. Does the 
phone need to
have " mobile data - On " in the settings. I.e always connected to the internet.
The above says about codes made every 15 minutes etc.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Thank you for this. If I may ask a question. Does the
phone need to
have " mobile data - On " in the settings. I.e always connected to the internet.
The above says about codes made every 15 minutes etc.
		
Click to expand...

Shouldn't need to I don't believe as it has nothing to do with your GPS the tracing it's all to do with if your phone comes into contact with another phone via Bluetooth

Bluetooth must be on tho 

I'm happy to report been running since it started and my battery hasn't noticed any power drain so I'm happy


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## Beezerk (Sep 28, 2020)

Found this, interesting read, it mentions proximity sensing further down the page.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_Low_Energy


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If you can afford a marquee and champagne surely you could manage a phone upgrade.
		
Click to expand...

I dont need to, I’m using my work phone.  besides - no need for technology if pen and paper is just as good.

Nevertheless the possibility of my having to buy a new phone was not mentioned when the app was being sold to us as the answer...Because clearly it never was...either that or those selling the app actually didn’t understand what was required to make it work for all of us.  And as explained - something like 80% of us have to have the app for it to be most effective in meeting its Primary objective.  But there you go - it was rather oversold - for whatever reason.

Those of us who can should download and use it.  Those of us who can’t, can choose to buy a new phone and possibly also an additional carrier contract, or if they can’t afford to do that just stick with manual.  Because if manual is just as good for wider community purposes why would anyone buy a second phone - or indeed a first if they don’t have one.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 29, 2020)

KenL said:



			If i am right, the only way for a digital device to detect distance is for a 2 way communication between the devices.  The distance could, in theory, be measured if it could measure the time it took to send the signal to all the devices in the room, receive it back and decode all the signals received back and measure the time taken from all devices.

It takes 6.6... nano seconds for light to travel 2 metres.  Not sure a phone, let's face it, designed for YouTube, tiktok etc would be capable of accurately dealing with that on an app when the phone is dealing with a lot of other apps.
		
Click to expand...

I cut and pasted this from the app. I can't explain how that works but it's how the apps help explains it.

*Risk score calculation*
The app uses Bluetooth signal strength between devices to estimate the distance between two people. It estimates the distance for that encounter as one of three levels: Close, Medium and Far.
It is highly likely that encounters identified as “Close” are significantly within 2 metres and that those identified as “Far” are most likely over 4 metres away.


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## KenL (Sep 29, 2020)

Clever stuff, but is it accurate and reliable?
I would not wish to isolate if it mis-calculated me as being close to someone who wasn't close.
Or what if you are outside where we are told there is much less risk?
I suppose at the moment if you have been in the clubhouse or a pub who tests positive you will get a call anyway.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 29, 2020)

KenL said:



			Clever stuff, but is it accurate and reliable?
I would not wish to isolate if it mis-calculated me as being close to someone who wasn't close.
Or what if you are outside where we are told there is much less risk?
I suppose at the moment if you have been in the clubhouse or a pub who tests positive you will get a call anyway.
		
Click to expand...

You can turn off the tracing part for times you are outside.. or if you social distance correct you won't get a false alarm

It's probably as if not more reliable than paper track and trace. Say your friend tests postive. You saw him but only for 5 mins he gives your details to them and they tell you to isolate .. the app will have said not long enough


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## KenL (Sep 29, 2020)

I don't get the it takes 15 minutes to catch it theory.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 29, 2020)

KenL said:



			I don't get the it takes 15 minutes to catch it theory.
		
Click to expand...

Just keep moving around 😆.

It does seem a long time when this virus is supposed to be so virulent. They have been consistent with it though so they must be comfortable with that time frame.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 29, 2020)

KenL said:



			I don't get the it takes 15 minutes to catch it theory.
		
Click to expand...

15 mins will have been worked out by science as to what's the time where the risk starts to get too much

If it was 10, 5 or 2 mins the country would be all isolating

Apart from Bob ofc


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

KenL said:



			I don't get the it takes 15 minutes to catch it theory.
		
Click to expand...

Its a dosage assessment. The virus is dispersed on droplets and one breath in is unlikely to take in a large dose even if a Covid shedder has just breathed out nearby, but over the course of a prolonged period nearby, you will take in more virus. 15 minutes is an assessment how long it is likely to take to get a large enough dose. This is part of the same reason outside is better than inside, there is much more dispersal outside, very unlikely to pick up repeat doses of Covid (UV is also a factor).


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## KenL (Sep 29, 2020)

Now I do "get" the 15 minute thinking. 👍


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 29, 2020)

KenL said:



			Now I do "get" the 15 minute thinking. 👍
		
Click to expand...

Forums are genuinely useful at times aren't they? Your question got an interesting response, I got one yesterday about the app. In between the daftness ..............


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## Mudball (Sep 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Bluetooth 5.1 What’s New?
The main feature that differs Bluetooth 5.1 from other versions of Bluetooth is the direction signal. From the previous versions of Bluetooth like the Bluetooth 5.0, you can only see the distance of your connected devices by how strong the signal is. But Bluetooth 5.1 not just calculate the distance, it also shows the direction to your connected device. There are also some new features added to Bluetooth 5.1 which are stated here
		
Click to expand...

I had to look up BLE Proximity Profile, some cunning stuff.  Found this interesting if you like ur inner geek ( https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:859549/FULLTEXT01.pdf ) 

Beyond the BLE sensing capabilty, I won’t be surprised if it uses some form of software triangulation that combines wifi, cellular, gps etc to pinpoint the phone. Remember we are pushing tech into new use cases here. Previously these would be restricted to indoors/outdoors or trusted/untrusted devices, now we are using it in all conditions. 
While digital signals dont attenuate like analog signals - it will need to compensate for someone carrying the phone deep in her handbag v someone carrying in shirt pockets. All that but of tech will come from Apple & Google via an API. 

The NHS app will simply ingest the data and then use some clever algorithms and analytics to make it specific to the U.K.  it will also add the extra features like checkin, test results and local news. That is where the money goes - not really on a cute app


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Just had a call from my daughter, she's showing symptoms now and is off to get a test shortly. She sounded in good spirits and hopefully she'll get through it without too many dramas 🤞


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## SocketRocket (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Just had a call from my daughter, she's showing symptoms now and is off to get a test shortly. She sounded in good spirits and hopefully she'll get through it without too many dramas 🤞
		
Click to expand...

This University residential situation seems out of control now. Surely the students would be better at home.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			This University residential situation seems out of control now. Surely the students would be better at home.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly, on the flip side my daughter is in a sort of controlled environment so all those at risk of infection are isolating in the same place, call it one massive bubble if you will. I'd rather her be there than potentially spreading it all over the place to be honest.


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Possibly, on the flip side my daughter is in a sort of controlled environment so all those at risk of infection are isolating in the same place, call it one massive bubble if you will. I'd rather her be there than potentially spreading it all over the place to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

Student halls sounds like a perfect place to spread it and gain immunity to me. If anyone has known underlying conditions, get them out and let the rest of the kids party 24/7 for 2 weeks and get it out of the way.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Student halls sounds like a perfect place to spread it and gain immunity to me. If anyone has known underlying conditions, get them out and let the rest of the kids party 24/7 for 2 weeks and get it out of the way.
		
Click to expand...

She actually said she'd rather catch it now so she can get on with her life than catch it X months down the line.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			She actually said she'd rather catch it now so she can get on with her life than catch it X months down the line.
		
Click to expand...

But that's assuming you can't be re-infected, which as far as I know is possible.  But then again I do not blame her with that attitude as I am sure many others are feeling the same.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I used the app


But that's assuming you can't be re-infected, which as far as I know is possible.
		
Click to expand...

That's the million dollar question isn't it. If you can get re-infected then theoretically we could be in some form of lockdown for the rest of our lives as it will never go away. Weird times indeed.


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## DRW (Sep 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I used the app


But that's assuming you can't be re-infected, which as far as I know is possible.  But then again I do not blame her with that attitude as I am sure many others are feeling the same.
		
Click to expand...

Very few cases so far, some wrongly reported(ie. false positives) and some of the others had no symptoms, so the immune system was actually doing what it should do, fighting off the infection. There will always be the outliners as such as well, so people who do actually catch it more than once....

If antibodies disappear, which could be the case, then it is likely T cells will be with you for years. So for example with SARs, antibodies reduce over 2-3 years but the T cells have been found to still be there something like 17 years later....The bummer is that as you age ,T cells become less!

So far basically nothing to worry about tbh and long may it be the case.

As this virus is really peeing me off


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2020)

With what has come to pass I'm wondering if, back in May, students planning to go to Uni had really known or been fully informed about the risk associated with the virus in a Uni/halls context, and the likelihood that the key risk mitigation that is Test, Track and Trace would not fully up and running efficiently by September, that these students would have made the same decision to go to Uni.  I suspect that whilst many would still have accepted the risks, many would not have done so.  And so I can understand that, at least some, students may well be feeling just a little bit miffed - if not duped - and angry about the situation in which they find themselves.  And who would blame them.  The situation in respect of Uni halls and their course learning is both absurd and outrageous - verging on scandalous.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			That's the million dollar question isn't it. If you can get re-infected then theoretically we could be in some form of lockdown for the rest of our lives as it will never go away. Weird times indeed.
		
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that some people in the far east had been re-infected.  And this was from a BBC podcast with their health correspondent and not some crackpot tin foil hat web site. But the number of cases was extremely small so could have just been a freak incident.  Suppose as we get to know more about this then we'll get a definitive answer.


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## drdel (Sep 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With what has come to pass I'm wondering if, back in May, students planning to go to Uni had really known or been fully informed about the risk associated with the virus in a Uni/halls context, and the likelihood that the key risk mitigation that is Test, Track and Trace would not fully up and running efficiently by September, that these students would have made the same decision to go to Uni.  I suspect that whilst many would still have accepted the risks, many would not have done so.  And so I can understand that, at least some, students may well be felling just a little bit duped and angry about the situation in which they find themselves.  And who would blame them.  The situation in respect of Uni halls and their learning is both absurd and outrageous - verging on scandalous.
		
Click to expand...

The are loads of people working in Universities that are not students and in the higher age groups ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			The are loads of people working in Universities that are not students and in the higher age groups ...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed there are - though I am not sure how that fact would impact the decision that a student planning to go to Uni would have made back in May.


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Just had a call from my daughter, she's showing symptoms now and is off to get a test shortly. She sounded in good spirits and hopefully she'll get through it without too many dramas 🤞
		
Click to expand...

Hope she is fine. She is young and very very likely to have a benign course. May feel a bit hungover and achy, but she's a student so that feeling may be familiar to her already.


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I was under the impression that some people in the far east had been re-infected.  And this was from a BBC podcast with their health correspondent and not some crackpot tin foil hat web site. But the number of cases was extremely small so could have just been a freak incident.  Suppose as we get to know more about this then we'll get a definitive answer.
		
Click to expand...

Re-infection is a big area for discussion right now. I think the general feeling is that it is possible, especially with a mutated (different) strain, but that if it was a common problem, we would have seen a lot more by now. 

There is good evidence that people who get infection (or vaccination) get an antibody response, and that response is protective. However, antibodies wane with time, and the immune system then relies on T-cell activation to trigger immune responses. Again, there is pretty good evidence that there are people around who have no antibodies but who have T-cells which react to Covid, so in addition to the slightly less than 10% of people who have antibodies, there may be a similar number who have T-cell activation which offers effective immunity. 

But immune systems are quite individual with lots of genetic quirks. all kinds of weird stuff can happen. There are people who do not mount an immune response to some antigens, and people who mount excessive immune responses. So anecdotal reports of some bloke in China or Italy who got infected twice should not scare the horses. You never really know how reliable the reports are or whether there are other factors which explain it. Even if there aren't, still rather rare so far.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 29, 2020)

I dropped my daughter off, 1st year, on Sunday. All of her friends are now away as well, no one has changed their minds. They knew back in May that university life was going to be restricted this year, none of what is happening is a shock. They could have backed out come mid August after results, we knew more then than May, and yet still they went.

Universities not having plans in place to deal with isolating students is pretty poor, particularly 1st year ones. They really should have had plans in place to deal with this. My daughters place reckon they do but the test of that is yet to come.

Of her friends that have gone 2 have already tested positive. One just lost his sense of taste, the other felt a bit rotten for 2-3 days. No big shakes. I fully expect my daughter to get it at some point. My son, 3rd year and in a house, has more chance of missing it but we will wait and see.


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## Mudball (Sep 29, 2020)

Friend's kid got into Oxbridge this year.  Chose to defer it to next year as he wont get the full Uni experience.  So decided to work at Waitrose instead.   Kids have a mind of their own..  Parents on the other hand........


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## IainP (Sep 29, 2020)

Oxbridge,  that's a place a bit like platform 9 3/4 at King's Cross 😉😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 29, 2020)

Too many people have heard too much giving rise to false hope over the last 4-5months - be they students or the many who have been furloughed or already been made redundant.

When you are given hope to cling to - and the alternative looks and feels very difficult, disappointing or both - it is easiest to cling to that hope - the hope that back in March/April and ever since has said that things would be at least OK'ish by September/October - that some form of normality would be resumed.  And when you hear such messaging and cling to such hope there can be a denial about what the future might well hold - and so you do what we are often told to do when things get difficult - 'hold tight; it'll be OK; don't do anything drastic; don't panic; it won't be that long'.

And so today we find '000s of students at Uni in a chaotic mess - and many hundreds of thousands of others seeing the veil of denial and false hopes being drawn back on the reality that is almost certain unemployment, and real difficulty finding new work and new purpose and direction in life.  Hopes dashed -facing no one knows how many months of pain and struggle.  And it's personal.  And it's very depressing.


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## GB72 (Sep 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Too many people have heard too much giving rise to false hope over the last 4-5months - be they students or the many who have been furloughed or already been made redundant.

When you are given hope to cling to - and the alternative looks and feels very difficult, disappointing or both - it is easiest to cling to that hope - the hope that back in March/April and ever since has said that things would be at least OK'ish by September/October - that some form of normality would be resumed.  And when you hear such messaging and cling to such hope there can be a denial about what the future might well hold - and so you do what we are often told to do when things get difficult - 'hold tight; it'll be OK; don't do anything drastic; don't panic; it won't be that long'.

And so today we find '000s of students at Uni in a chaotic mess - and many hundreds of thousands of others seeing the veil of denial and false hopes being drawn back on the reality that is almost certain unemployment and real difficulty finding new work; and new purpose and direction in life.  Hopes dashed.  And it's personal.
		
Click to expand...

Really do not get this. Yes, everyone has hope but the warnings of a second wave have been there throughout with October being the prediction of when it will start. People knew that. I have every sympathy for anyone facing a job loss but, again, it was pretty clear that some industries were going to take a very long time to recover, if at all (travel, airlines, hospitality and quite a few others). I can only say it was naive for people in some industries if they have decided to ride out the furlough period without looking at a career change. I fully expected to have to do that myself but who would have expected a property boom, even if it may be short lived. 

As for students, as long as they have access to lectures and tutorials then the basic premise of why they are there has been completed. Even if some of that has to be missed, with maybe 9 hours of lectures a week, it does not take much to catch up. I had to do almost an entire section of my course by listening to taped lectures due to a scheduling issue.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			That's the million dollar question isn't it. If you can get re-infected then theoretically we could be in some form of lockdown for the rest of our lives as it will never go away. Weird times indeed.
		
Click to expand...

Novel in its name but coronaviruses aren’t new. My theory is it’s here to stay and will become part and parcel with life.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 29, 2020)

Do people really expect a 'Full university experience' at the moment. Surely the reason to go to university is to learn and achieve qualifications, if you have to do that in a different way for a while then that's the reality of life right now.  The Open University have been doing it for a very long time now and managing to turn out graduates in large numbers.  Yes it great to have a social life as a young person but people throughout history have needed to accept the times they lived in meant a big change in lifestyle.


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			OMG so depressed that people are still thinking like this.
		
Click to expand...

By all means, please tell me what I "should" be thinking. I'm all ears.


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			OMG so depressed that people are still thinking like this.
		
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Herd immunity is a very risky and costly strategy, even in the young.


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Herd immunity is a very risky and costly strategy, even in the young.
		
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I'm talking distinctly about the kids that are locked up now in their student halls as COVID has spread there and they're supposedly not going anywhere the next few weeks anyway. Not about a blanket spread of young people in general. Looking at the numbers up until 18th September, there's 570 people that have died whilst tested positive of COVID in the age bracket between 15-44, which would be just about 1% of all deceased of COVID in England and Wales, so it seems to me that the risk is fairly low, but then again, I'm not a doctor like you.


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## DRW (Sep 29, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I'm talking distinctly about the kids that are locked up now in their student halls as COVID has spread there and they're supposedly not going anywhere the next few weeks anyway. Not about a blanket spread of young people in general. Looking at the numbers up until 18th September, there's 570 people that have died whilst tested positive of COVID in the age bracket between 15-44, which would be just about 1% of all deceased of COVID in England and Wales, so it seems to me that the risk is fairly low, but then again, I'm not a doctor like you.
		
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Its a problem, some only see the Virus as a stand alone problem, which clearly it isn't.

There are going to be 1,000s die from cancer early due to NHS effectively deferring urgent referrals/treatment. Some of those will have 30-40 odd years knocked off their lives, not just a few years(one statistic I have read is that a quarter of the covid deaths had dementia, and dementia isn't nice and a one way ticket iirc). That ignores other surgery, diseases, poverty etc that are not being treated now, its going to cause large issues moving forward. All because you cant catch them and Covid deaths are seen as more important. This whole matter is a trade off, not a one way street for covid, yeah I see that covid can go big and big quickly.

Vaccines have problems, as you would probably know, IIRC Sweden had a scandal from a rushed Swine Flu vaccine not that long ago. EDIT and the swine flu didn't turn into what was predicted.

Even if a vaccine comes along, do you risk a vaccine on the younger people who probably wont be overly effected by the virus and ironically the old people take to vaccines less effectively, so will we actually have a 95%ish vaccine in the next year, who knows there are no guarantees to that.

Can you imagine if a virus called Spanish Flu or like came about now, what the response would be, millions dying from a virus or a really deadly pathogen.

It certainly has opened my eyes and are the West best to deal with another pandemic...….maybe places like China has it right, not that I would like to live there 

I don't like any of the choices or options, as many will die from any of them....

Its all about balance and at the moment it is not possible to have any kind of sensible risk based discussions or how we really move forward ? as this thread has shown many times....


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I'm talking distinctly about the kids that are locked up now in their student halls as COVID has spread there and they're supposedly not going anywhere the next few weeks anyway. Not about a blanket spread of young people in general. Looking at the numbers up until 18th September, there's 570 people that have died whilst tested positive of COVID in the age bracket between 15-44, which would be just about 1% of all deceased of COVID in England and Wales, so it seems to me that the risk is fairly low, but then again, I'm not a doctor like you.
		
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The risk is fairly low, but not zero, and best avoided. There is little individual or societal benefit in students getting Covid at this stage. Long Covid is now well recognised in community cases and can be nasty.


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## DRW (Sep 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The risk is fairly low, but not zero, and best avoided. There is little individual or societal benefit in students getting Covid at this stage. Long Covid is now well recognised in community cases and can be nasty.
		
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Last year I caught a virus in about September that effected my breathing and it wasn't until about May, I felt normal. Still can not blow into the blower thing as well as I could prior.

When I caught glandular Fever when I was younger, it was about a year before I was back to normal. Some people never get back to normal, Robert Soldering was a well know case, top tennis player irrc.

Effects of virus afterwards, are not new and many people suffer from middle to long term virus issues, not surprisingly as your body is taking a right hammering when you are infected.

Maybe more will suffer with long covid than all other virus, time will tell.

We need a balanced conversation, proper balanced information, proper risk based discussions and not just the scare stories, like stupid doubling every 7 days examples.

Spains cases have dropped quickly, I wonder why  and wonder if the UK will follow suit.....


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

DRW said:



			Last year I caught a virus in about September that effected my breathing and it wasn't until about May, I felt normal. Still can not blow into the blower thing as well as I could prior.

When I caught glandular Fever when I was younger, it was about a year before I was back to normal. Some people never get back to normal, Robert Soldering was a well know case, top tennis player irrc.

Effects of virus afterwards, are not new and many people suffer from middle to long term virus issues, not surprisingly as your body is taking a right hammering when you are infected.

Maybe more will suffer with long covid than all other virus, time will tell.

We need a balanced conversation, proper balanced information, proper risk based discussions and not just the scare stories, like stupid doubling every 7 days examples.

Spains cases have dropped quickly, I wonder why and wonder if the UK will follow suit.....
		
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I sense a circular discussion here, but I don't see what your central point is. 

On the one hand, you say we need more info, more data (I paraphrase, but agree) but on the other, even though you have personal knowledge of post-viral syndromes, you seem to be OK with Covid spreading though the captive students. 

Do you not see a logical inconsistency there?

The doubling time point, presumably the one made by Vallance, was not a prediction but a model of what it would look like, intended to stimulate action to prevent to from occurring. Angela Merkel used much the same strategy today. It is powerful because people don't have a feel for how quickly exponential growth can move.


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Since you’re ignoring all the medical experts and government advice I don’t think I’ll waste my time.
		
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Wasn't aware that wearing a face mask on public transport and other indoor venues, working from home, not shaking hands and washing hands often with soap was ignoring medical experts and government advice. Well, I learn something new each day. Thanks for the schooling! 



Ethan said:



			The risk is fairly low, but not zero, and best avoided. There is little individual or societal benefit in students getting Covid at this stage. Long Covid is now well recognised in community cases and can be nasty.
		
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Fair enough. Am I right in thinking then that under the current situation we're in, we've just got to sit tight and wait for a vaccine to be ready?


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Fair enough. Am I right in thinking then that under the current situation we're in, we've just got to sit tight and wait for a vaccine to be ready?
		
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That's my plan!


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## Lilyhawk (Sep 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That's my plan!
		
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I clearly should've added "in your opinion".


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I clearly should've added "in your opinion".
		
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Other opinions are indeed available and you don't have to go far to find them.


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## DRW (Sep 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I sense a circular discussion here, but I don't see what your central point is.

On the one hand, you say we need more info, more data (I paraphrase, but agree) but on the other, even though you have personal knowledge of post-viral syndromes, you seem to be OK with Covid spreading though the captive students.

Do you not see a logical inconsistency there?

The doubling time point, presumably the one made by Vallance, was not a prediction but a model of what it would look like, intended to stimulate action to prevent to from occurring. Angela Merkel used much the same strategy today. It is powerful because people don't have a feel for how quickly exponential growth can move.
		
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Oh yeah there is inconsistency as such in my ramblings,  This isn't a black/white solution in my eyes, there are so many options and I don't like any of them, all of them take to long and all have to much colleteral damage with each path.

Be shocked if anyone doesn't have inconsistencies or struggle with the trade offs. At this stage, each action is going to kill people, its only a matter of who and how many...……….

Mr Vs example, hmm I would have suggested doing a model for doubling cases daily, that would have looked really scary(and more stupid), like many thought his chart read. Its wrong to use science in that way, as it comes back to haunt you later and anyway the people you are trying to change probably aren't watching the slide show


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## pauljames87 (Sep 29, 2020)

Ate in my clubhouse today for first time since. They have an outside table service so been using that 

Mask to be work until at table 

Track and trace QI scan available so tagged in

Do your hands then they take your temp. If ok in you go.. 

Waitress in mask , takes your order. Payment by card or clubcard only


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

DRW said:



			Mr Vs example, hmm I would have suggested doing a model for doubling cases daily, that would have looked really scary(and more stupid), like many thought his chart read. Its wrong to use science in that way, as it comes back to haunt you later and anyway the people you are trying to change probably aren't watching the slide show  

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Just to defend Vallance a bit, and I am not his biggest fan, what he was saying was fair comment. 

He wasn’t saying this is what is going to happen. He said this is what happened before and will happen again if we don’t get our asses in gear. He will be very happy, and have done his job if that bad number doesn’t happen.


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## DRW (Sep 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Just to defend Vallance a bit, and I am not his biggest fan, what he was saying was fair comment.

He wasn’t saying this is what is going to happen. He said this is what happened before and will happen again if we don’t get our asses in gear. He will be very happy, and have done his job if that bad number doesn’t happen.
		
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However life is nothing like it was back then, so seems just a lie. However don't dispute the point you make.

This guy is keeping a log and lots of other charts, if anyone is into charts and data.  Think I have rambled enough, have fun

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1310964651203665920


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

DRW said:



			However life is nothing like it was back then, so seems just a lie. However don't dispute the point you make.

This guy is keeping a log and lots of other charts, if anyone is into charts and data.  Think I have rambled enough, have fun

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1310964651203665920
View attachment 32557

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Well, we did see exponential growth previously, with a doubling time of less than 7 days. The current numbers of positive tests are an underestimate because many can't get tests and therefore can't test positive. 

But as I said, his intent was not to be right but to stimulate action to prove him wrong.


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## Reemul (Sep 29, 2020)

They can't win though, if enough people do as they should it will fall, like we need it to and then people say he's as full of rubbish and miles out, if we do nothing an dit goes sky high and people die we get the goivernment are poor and no nothing.

Some people unfortunately cannot look at things in a nuanced manner and understand the multiple paths it will go depending on what we do, they just want black and white answers and solutions, something we won't have presently.

Any reasons being given on why it is so bad up north and not down south.


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

Reemul said:



			They can't win though, if enough people do as they should it will fall, like we need it to and then people say he's as full of rubbish and miles out, if we do nothing an dit goes sky high and people die we get the goivernment are poor and no nothing.

Some people unfortunately cannot look at things in a nuanced manner and understand the multiple paths it will go depending on what we do, they just want black and white answers and solutions, something we won't have presently.

Any reasons being given on why it is so bad up north and not down south.
		
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Back in Jan or Feb, Chris Whitty did a speech at which he said that after Covid was finished, he would either be blamed for not doing enough, or for over-reacting. He said he knew which one he preferred. It is next to impossible to get it precisely right, there are too many uncontrollable variables and externalities. 

Why the North is currently doing worse? Don't know, Could be chance, a lot of places are at similar risk but random chance determines which one the bad luck drops on, and then once it does, it spreads around the region from there.


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## Mudball (Sep 29, 2020)

DRW said:



			However life is nothing like it was back then, so seems just a lie. However don't dispute the point you make.

This guy is keeping a log and lots of other charts, if anyone is into charts and data.  Think I have rambled enough, have fun

https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1310964651203665920
View attachment 32557

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i like this graph... because it says so many things...   
1) Example scenairo says we will hit 50k in Oct....  
2) We started taking action 18th Sept or so....  hence the blue line is trailing.  

This can be used to show success as well as failure of what is happening on the ground.    I think the great Trump once said that there might have been a million dead, but because of his super genius brain and hard work, *ONLY* 200k have died...    now you can say OMG 200k died or OMG 800k were saved.   I for one want to see the gap between Blue and Red keeps increasing.  It shows actions are effective


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## SaintHacker (Sep 29, 2020)

The R number seems to have stopped being mentioned so much lately. Last week is was thought to be around 1.5. IIRC back inMarch/April i was up around 5? Which if true given the numbers of positive cases we are now seeing that would definitely give some credence to the estimates of 100k+ cases per day back then


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## Ethan (Sep 29, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			The R number seems to have stopped being mentioned so much lately. Last week is was thought to be around 1.5. IIRC back inMarch/April i was up around 5? Which if true given the numbers of positive cases we are now seeing that would definitely give some credence to the estimates of 100k+ cases per day back then
		
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The Ro (baseline) was estimated to be around 3 for Covid. It is not as transmissible as something like measles, which is very transmissible with a Ro of around 15. The Ro is based on a population with no immunity, so once the infection is underway it still shouldn't exceed that number.


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## Crazyface (Sep 29, 2020)

Gotta laugh at adults collecting kids from school. Massive queue all distancing...until they get to the school gates. Then it's a big scrum of human beings crashing into each other. LOL...NOT. 

Oh and not a bluddy mask in sight.


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## AdamW (Sep 29, 2020)

When we was in full lockdown I was not able to go see my dying grandad in hospital (he did not have covid-19).

The phones on the ward were all broken so no one could call him either for the 6 weeks he was in.

My nan managed to get a few hours in the afternoon with him on his last day which was nice.

Absolute shambles and disgrace, still royally annoyed now about it all.


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## KenL (Sep 29, 2020)

AdamW said:



			When we was in full lockdown I was not able to go see my dying grandad in hospital (he did not have covid-19).

The phones on the ward were all broken so no one could call him either for the 6 weeks he was in.

My nan managed to get a few hours in the afternoon with him on his last day which was nice.

Absolute shambles and disgrace, still royally annoyed now about it all.
		
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No wonder.  Sorry to hear about your grandad.


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## larmen (Sep 29, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Gotta laugh at adults collecting kids from school. Massive queue all distancing...until they get to the school gates. Then it's a big scrum of human beings crashing into each other. LOL...NOT.

Oh and not a bluddy mask in sight.
		
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We only started to join the collection crowd this week and at our infant school they keep us apart from the queue to when we enter to when we leave.
It's about minimising risk we don't stand there 15 minutes close to another person, and it is outside.

Of course, we are all collecting kids who spent all day together anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Really do not get this. Yes, everyone has hope but the warnings of a second wave have been there throughout with October being the prediction of when it will start. People knew that. I have every sympathy for anyone facing a job loss but, again, it was pretty clear that some industries were going to take a very long time to recover, if at all (travel, airlines, hospitality and quite a few others). I can only say it was naive for people in some industries if they have decided to ride out the furlough period without looking at a career change. I fully expected to have to do that myself but who would have expected a property boom, even if it may be short lived.

As for students, as long as they have access to lectures and tutorials then the basic premise of why they are there has been completed. Even if some of that has to be missed, with maybe 9 hours of lectures a week, it does not take much to catch up. I had to do almost an entire section of my course by listening to taped lectures due to a scheduling issue.
		
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Not going to get in a debate about what May expectations were about September/October as that would instantly get political - however I think that we can agree that we were NOT being warned that we would quite possibly be subject to very significant measures until end March 2021.


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## GB72 (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to get in a debate about what May expectations were about September/October as that would instantly get political - however I think that we can agree that we were NOT being warned that we would quite possibly be subject to very significant measures until end March 2021.
		
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No need to be political at all, the warnings about a second wave were in the press, on the news, on no end of websites, on social media and even on here. It is perfectly possible to point out the plethora of information predicting just this at exactly this time without even mentioning a political party or a political opinion. I stand exactly by my comments. Anyone in a severely impacted industry needed to be looking for a way out. I would even go as far to say that anyone still on Furlough now should not have high expectations of returning to their position at the end of October. Sadly you are putting forward the rather worrying idea that people should throw all thoughts of common sense out the window and blindly follow political rhetoric.


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## Ethan (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to get in a debate about what May expectations were about September/October as that would instantly get political - however I think that we can agree that we were NOT being warned that we would quite possibly be subject to very significant measures until end March 2021.
		
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Agree there was no such explicit warning, but given the onset of winter and the added complications of more indoors, flu season and other NHS pressures, it was not hard to imagine restrictions until Spring.


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## Beezerk (Sep 30, 2020)

Daughter has tested positive, she feels fine and is staying strong 💪


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## Deleted member 3432 (Sep 30, 2020)

larmen said:



			We only started to join the collection crowd this week and at our infant school they keep us apart from the queue to when we enter to when we leave.
It's about minimising risk we don't stand there 15 minutes close to another person, and it is outside.

Of course, we are all collecting kids who spent all day together anyway.
		
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My sons school has got it very well organised, staggered start and finish times, masks to be worn by parents however this hasn't stopped kids getting infected. Reception, years 1 and 2 are now all isolating due to kids getting infected away from school.

Fortunately I'm on my 6 days off so I can look after him while the wife is at work. Just no golf this week although it is blowing about 30 mph and raining heavily so not a good day for the links today.


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to get in a debate about what May expectations were about September/October as that would instantly get political - however I think that we can agree that we were NOT being warned that we would quite possibly be subject to very significant measures until end March 2021.
		
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Everyone and their dog were told there'd be a second wave. Everyone was told that when the coming winter flu arrived, whether its a second or third wave of Covid along with whatever new version of flu comes around, that stringent measures would be needed. And the WHO has been giving out global warnings of what was coming, and what the responses should be.

The NHS was told in May to gear up for September, and how the public should behave if it wished to avoid tougher measures.

No we cannot agree we were NOT being warned. Methinks you're being deliberately obtuse.


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## oxymoron (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to get in a debate about what May expectations were about September/October as that would instantly get political - however I think that we can agree that we were NOT being warned that we would quite possibly be subject to very significant measures until end March 2021.
		
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This is a very fluid, rapidly changing event and i do not think anyone knew what was going to happen as no one has the experience of such an epidemic so i think we should not get hung up on wether we were  warned , it looked to me like winter was always going to be a challenging time after such an assault on the NHS so i cannot see why anyone else would not see the oncoming wave of infections or at the least a rise, when lockdown was eased
Releasing lockdown combined with returns to work,school and uni were always going to be a risk but we could all help to reduce it if we follow the guidelines and apply common sense , i do not particularly like wearing a mask, but if it reduces my chances of getting\passing Covid i will comply ,just wish more would do the same we seem to have a core of people that have a sod you i am ok attitude and this is dangerous.


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## Crazyface (Sep 30, 2020)

larmen said:



			We only started to join the collection crowd this week and at our infant school they keep us apart from the queue to when we enter to when we leave.
It's about minimising risk we don't stand there 15 minutes close to another person, and it is outside.

Of course, we are all collecting kids who spent all day together anyway.
		
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The kids I saw were all squashed together on the other side of the gate waiting to be collected. Looking forward to the next spike to be announced in Stoke.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Everyone and their dog were told there'd be a second wave. Everyone was told that when the coming winter flu arrived, whether its a second or third wave of Covid along with whatever new version of flu comes around, that stringent measures would be needed. And the WHO has been giving out global warnings of what was coming, and what the responses should be.

The NHS was told in May to gear up for September, and how the public should behave if it wished to avoid tougher measures.

No we cannot agree we were NOT being warned. Methinks you're being deliberately obtuse.
		
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OK - it is weird how the words *from some* about things getting back to something approaching normal September/October time have been erased from memory.  Yes there were warnings from scientists and medics about a second wave - but my point was that words *from some* of significant influence were more positive.  And all that I am saying is that some very difficult decisions many businesses and individuals were faced with making were put off in the hope that the positive words would come to pass - the alternative being too difficult and depressing to accept.  And they have not come to pass.  And the very difficult decisions are now having to be made.


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## GB72 (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - it is weird how the words *from some* about things getting back to something approaching normal September/October time have been erased from memory.  Yes there were warnings from scientists and medics about a second wave - but my point was that words *from some* of significant influence were more positive.  And all that I am saying is that some very difficult decisions many businesses and individuals were faced with making were put off in the hope that the positive words would come to pass - the alternative being too difficult and depressing to accept.  And they have not come to pass.  And the very difficult decisions are now having to be made.
		
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Again, not agreeing with this. On day one of the lockdown, my company and most of the ones that I deal with put in place plans for best case scenarios, worst case scenarios and pretty much everything in between and have been ready to adjust their strategy and position as the circumstances change on everything from staffing levels to working from home to office procedures. No sensible company puts off any decision but rather has contingencies in place for everything bearing in mind that a positive outcome or a negative one were equally possible. The old adage 'plan for the worst and hope for the best' seems a good one to apply. Doing nothing and hoping that everything will be fine is just poor management when it has become more and more obvious that everything in the short term will not be fine.


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## Ethan (Sep 30, 2020)

Although there was obviously a range of speculations/predictions about what would happen in the late summer/school return/lockdown easing period, I am unaware of any credible voices saying it would all be fine and dandy. There were some who predicted carnage, other who said it would be tough but manageable, and a few who suspected that HMG's preferred option was to see a low level of cases among younger people slowly moving towards herd immunity. Publicly, the Govt spoke of keeping the NHS protected, which suggests an acceptance that there would be pressures but hopefully tolerable ones. But there was general agreement that Covid was going to remain a problem until a vaccine was widely available.


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## chellie (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to get in a debate about what May expectations were about September/October as that would instantly get political - however I think that we can agree that we were NOT being warned that we would quite possibly be subject to very significant measures until end March 2021.
		
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Oh come off it. Did anyone REALLY think we were going to be back to pre COVID normal before then?


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## Slab (Sep 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Everyone and their dog were told there'd be a second wave. Everyone was told that when the coming winter flu arrived, whether its a second or third wave of Covid along with whatever new version of flu comes around, that stringent measures would be needed. And the WHO has been giving out global warnings of what was coming, and what the responses should be.

The NHS was told in May to gear up for September, *and how the public should behave if it wished to avoid tougher measures*.

No we cannot agree we were NOT being warned. Methinks you're being deliberately obtuse.
		
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This highlight is a key phrase looking in at the UK

Millions didn’t behave when in ‘lockdown’ & it could’ve made a big difference
Millions didn’t behave when measures were starting to be lifted
And millions more thought they were behaving because they only did was ‘allowed’... but turns out they weren’t really helping because they were being allowed to do too much and probably just made it worse


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 30, 2020)

chellie said:



			Oh come off it. Did anyone REALLY think we were going to be back to pre COVID normal before then?
		
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Nobody did.  Well - not very many and thse who did were rather deluded...

But plenty of businesses and individuals were hoping that positive words coming from *some* *of more significance and influence than others* about what _might _be possible Sept/Oct time, would indeed come to pass.  They were hoping that they were not having false hopes raised as the alternative was too difficult to contemplate - which for many businesses would be significant redundancies.  I am not suggesting that they _should _have taken hope from what they might have heard - I for one didn't really believe a word of it - but who can blame them.  Of course we know what their hopes were based upon - and that was a world class 3Ts system.


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## chrisd (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nobody did.  Well - not very many and thse who did were rather deluded...

But plenty of businesses and individuals were hoping that positive words coming from *some* *of more significance and influence than others* about what _might _be possible Sept/Oct time, would indeed come to pass.  They were hoping that they were not having false hopes raised as the alternative was too difficult to contemplate - which for many businesses would be significant redundancies.  I am not suggesting that they _should _have taken hope from what they might have heard - I for one didn't really believe a word of it - but who can blame them.  Of course we know what their hopes were based upon - and that was a world class 3Ts system.
		
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That is a load of tosh.

 Can you name any company or business  that publicly put out statements to support what you are saying?

Can you name any scientist or MP who didn't think there'd be a second wave later in the year when talking in May?


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## Billysboots (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - it is weird how the words *from some* about things getting back to something approaching normal September/October time have been erased from memory.  Yes there were warnings from scientists and medics about a second wave - but my point was that words *from some* of significant influence were more positive.  And all that I am saying is that some very difficult decisions many businesses and individuals were faced with making were put off in the hope that the positive words would come to pass - the alternative being too difficult and depressing to accept.  And they have not come to pass.  And the very difficult decisions are now having to be made.
		
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Without going down the political route, I do vividly recall Boris telling the nation at the start of lockdown that this virus would be under control within 12 weeks. And very little was known then about how this would develop.

The only certainty during the last six months has been the constant uncertainty. That said, the majority opinion I have seen since the outset has been that there would be further waves of the virus, and the bulk of those I have seen predicted autumn/winter. The positive words have largely been from isolated individuals.


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## drdel (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nobody did.  Well - not very many and thse who did were rather deluded...

But plenty of businesses and individuals were hoping that positive words coming from *some* *of more significance and influence than others* about what _might _be possible Sept/Oct time, would indeed come to pass.  They were hoping that they were not having false hopes raised as the alternative was too difficult to contemplate - which for many businesses would be significant redundancies.  I am not suggesting that they _should _have taken hope from what they might have heard - I for one didn't really believe a word of it - but who can blame them.  Of course we know what their hopes were based upon - and that was a world class 3Ts system.
		
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I think you are not sticking to the theme of the thread but just rehashing the original political thread debate, Prof Whity has always said from the begining that this will a long haul and waves of ŕising infection rates were more likely than not.


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## Jamesbrown (Sep 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Without going down the political route, I do vividly recall Boris telling the nation at the start of lockdown that this virus would be under control within 12 weeks. And very little was known then about how this would develop.

The only certainty during the last six months has been the constant uncertainty. That said, the majority opinion I have seen since the outset has been that there would be further waves of the virus, and the bulk of those I have seen predicted autumn/winter. The positive words have largely been from isolated individuals.
		
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Correct, somebody said a lot of positive things including I remember masks being implemented for 4-8 weeks as it would curb the virus in that time period. Said somebody and the CDC Director. 

A different approach required or perhaps a kick into reality.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 30, 2020)

Surely with people wearing masks, using hand gel and socially distancing, this should have a positive impact on the numbers getting seasonal flu.

Or am I missing something?


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## bobmac (Sep 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			I think you are not sticking to the theme of the thread but just rehashing the original political thread debate, Prof Whity has always said from the begining that this will a long haul and waves of ŕising infection rates were more likely than not.
		
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## ColchesterFC (Sep 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Surely with people wearing masks, using hand gel and socially distancing, this should have a positive impact on the numbers getting seasonal flu.

Or am I missing something?
		
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That's what seems to have happened in the Southern hemisphere. Fingers crossed it happens here too.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-d...outhern-hemisphere-skipped-flu-season-in-2020


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## drdel (Sep 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Surely with people wearing masks, using hand gel and socially distancing, this should have a positive impact on the numbers getting seasonal flu.

Or am I missing something?
		
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You silly boy - you're playing with logic again when you know the media want a controversy and argument to fill the news hours for the talking heads.


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## road2ruin (Sep 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Surely with people wearing masks, using hand gel and socially distancing, this should have a positive impact on the numbers getting seasonal flu.

Or am I missing something?
		
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Along similar lines(ish).....last week my daughters class (she's 6) had their first case of the Norovirus, apparently a pretty horrible case at that. Usually this sort of thing would have spread around the class like wildfire however because of the increased handwashing and the fact that they all have the own personal work packs so don't share pens, pritt sticks etc it was limited to just the one boy. Hopefully that will help keep the other bugs etc at bay now we're coming into cold season etc.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			That is a load of tosh.

Can you name any company or business  that publicly put out statements to support what you are saying?

Can you name any scientist or MP who didn't think there'd be a second wave later in the year when talking in May?
		
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Stop feeding!


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## Hobbit (Sep 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - it is weird how the words *from some* about things getting back to something approaching normal September/October time have been erased from memory.  Yes there were warnings from scientists and medics about a second wave - but my point was that words *from some* of significant influence were more positive.  And all that I am saying is that some very difficult decisions many businesses and individuals were faced with making were put off in the hope that the positive words would come to pass - the alternative being too difficult and depressing to accept.  And they have not come to pass.  And the very difficult decisions are now having to be made.
		
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A bit like the words we might have received about other significant happenings? But c'mon Hugh, you're intelligent. Most flu's have 4 winters(ripples/waves), a winter in one hemisphere, then off to a winter in the other hemisphere and then repeat. Covid was predicted, originally, to have up to 6 ripples. We've seen the first wave in the northern hemisphere. The second wave is currently enjoying itself down south, and the third wave looks like its starting in the northern hemisphere.

There's a fair bit being mitigated by the restrictions we've seen. Unfortunately, some people think what has been done has failed. No it hasn't, its achieved what it could based on how limited the restrictions have been and how many idiots have ignored them.

Anyone who's thought otherwise or expected better is deluded.

Here in our corner southern Spain the numbers have dropped dramatically, even though Spain's numbers are rocketing. Why? The tourists/northern Spaniards have gone home. The locals are almost anal in their respecting of the rules, unlike up north. Go figure...


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## Imurg (Sep 30, 2020)

Had my first cancellation due to symptoms within a bubble at the college.
Bubble sent home for a week as a precaution.
Fortunately I haven't seen the pupil since last Thursday so no issues for me..
And so it begins...


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 30, 2020)

I could have put this in random irritations but it is virus related and it affects me mentally. The NE is currently in a relatively tight lock down. It really isn't tricky or complicated but thread after thread on our town Facebook page is from people trying to find a loophole. Equally disturbing is the number of people who are recommending people ignore the rules or coming out with advice that is plain wrong in order to bypass them.

We are in this position exactly because people have not followed the guidelines and have looked for ways around them. Muppets, absolute muppets and we are going to be in this lockdown for longer because of them 🤬🤬.

I'm having a bad lockdown day but it's good news for the dog as we will be going for a longer walk tonight to de-stress 😁.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I could have put this in random irritations but it is virus related and it affects me mentally. The NE is currently in a relatively tight lock down. It really isn't tricky or complicated but thread after thread on our town Facebook page is from people trying to find a loophole. Equally disturbing is the number of people who are recommending people ignore the rules or coming out with advice that is plain wrong in order to bypass them.

We are in this position exactly because people have not followed the guidelines and have looked for ways around them. Muppets, absolute muppets and we are going to be in this lockdown for longer because of them 🤬🤬.

I'm having a bad lockdown day but it's good news for the dog as we will be going for a longer walk tonight to de-stress 😁.
		
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May I suggest detoxing from Facebook? Or at the very least switch off your notifications. My wife is similar in that she reads Facebook a lot and just gets angry.  I've deleted my Facebook account and feel a lot better for doing so as whilst it is great for a few things, it also exposes you to lots of other peoples stupid opinions. Which to be honest for the sake of my mental health and well being I do not need. Enjoy your dog walk, that is my go to way of destressing, stick a podcast on, noise cancelling headphones to cut the world out, walk the dog, lovely.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 30, 2020)

Guy from Farnham Hants. in the queue for a test at Newport IOW asks the guy in front 'have you come far'
Farnham, the guy replies.

After a good laugh the second guy says he was chatting on the ferry [you are not allowed to stay in your car] to a couple from Ryde who were just returning from their test at Portsmouth.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 30, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			May I suggest detoxing from Facebook? Or at the very least switch off your notifications. My wife is similar in that she reads Facebook a lot and just gets angry.  I've deleted my Facebook account and feel a lot better for doing so as whilst it is great for a few things, it also exposes you to lots of other peoples stupid opinions. Which to be honest for the sake of my mental health and well being I do not need. Enjoy your dog walk, that is my go to way of destressing, stick a podcast on, noise cancelling headphones to cut the world out, walk the dog, lovely.
		
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Sound advice 👍. I don't go on much but a break is probably in order.

The mood wasn't helped by an employee chatting about the rules this afternoon. It came out that her household is in a bubble with about 5 other people 🙄. Everyone had their own bubble, some had 2. We explained the rules, I don't think she will change. Deep sigh.


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## drdel (Sep 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Sound advice 👍. I don't go on much but a break is probably in order.

The mood wasn't helped by an employee chatting about the rules this afternoon. It came out that her household is in a bubble with about 5 other people 🙄. Everyone had their own bubble, some had 2. We explained the rules, I don't think she will change. Deep sigh.
		
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I just don't understand why so many people just seem intent on finding ways to get around common sense health advice


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			I just don't understand why so many people just seem intent on finding ways to get around common sense health advice

Click to expand...

I genuinely don’t think all of these type are intent on getting around it, some are just thick and believe whatever their “friends” tell them.


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## bobmac (Sep 30, 2020)




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## Billysboots (Sep 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			I just don't understand why so many people just seem intent on finding ways to get around common sense health advice

Click to expand...

To try and rationalise them continuing as normal a life as possible.


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## anotherdouble (Sep 30, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Guy from *Farnham Hants.* in the queue for a test at Newport IOW asks the guy in front 'have you come far'
Farnham, the guy replies.

After a good laugh the second guy says he was chatting on the ferry [you are not allowed to stay in your car] to a couple from Ryde who were just returning from their test at Portsmouth.
		
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thought Farnham was in Surrey


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## Ethan (Sep 30, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			thought Farnham was in Surrey
		
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I thought it was in Hants, and was once on way to a wedding in it, before realising when I was nearly there that there was one in Surrey too, which was actually where the wedding was. Just made it before the bride.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 30, 2020)

Farnham is in Surrey, but very close to the Hampshire border


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## SocketRocket (Sep 30, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Fareham, Hants. Just across the water from Pompey.

Farnham, Surrey.
		
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Pompey!  That's where Elephants go to die


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Farnham is in Surrey, but very close to the Hampshire border
		
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It’s a lovely little town but some of the locals are bloody irritating 👍


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## road2ruin (Oct 1, 2020)

A bit of positive news to start the day.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54366478


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## AmandaJR (Oct 1, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			A bit of positive news to start the day.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54366478

Click to expand...

Thank goodness. The hospital doctor they just interviewed had me ready to throw in the towel and end it all!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Thank goodness. The hospital doctor they just interviewed had me ready to throw in the towel and end it all!
		
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Interesting that this is the same team that at the start of September had their modelling showing a doubling of cases ever 7 days (and that Sir PV and CW may well have used as their reference in their joint briefing) - and today the team lead maintained that that was correct back then.  Apparently the team does not simply test those who are symptomatic - rather, they test across the population (as I understand from what the research lead said this morning) - and so find asymptomatic infected as well as symptomatic.  But good news - though caveated by him as being from testing done just last Saturday so not clear how things might have changed since then.


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## Ethan (Oct 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting that this is the same team that at the start of September had their modelling showing a doubling of cases ever 7 days (and that Sir PV and CW may well have used as their reference in their joint briefing) - and today the team lead maintained that that was correct back then.  Apparently the team does not simply test those who are symptomatic - rather, they test across the population (as I understand from what the research lead said this morning) - and so find asymptomatic infected as well as symptomatic.
		
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This news story came from a population prevalence study. It is encouraging, but its reliability does depend on the sampling methods used and there is always a degree of statistical uncertainty involved, so a further updated study in a week or two confirming the slowing would be very helpful. 

The data shown by Vallance, and the modelled future trajectory, is based on different data, that taken from NHS testing and hospital records. The doubling time was indeed 7-8 days, and it would be good news if that slows. Note that even if it slows, it is still increasing, so we aren't out of the woods by any means. We can debate whether, if that data improves, it was previously just a blip or whether people acted responsibly to reduce transmission. 

Any way you look at it, there is a reservoir of virus bubbling around, and it is therefore likely that local outbreaks or rises in national numbers, will be common events through the autumn and winter.


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## pendodave (Oct 1, 2020)

So...
Bowel cancer screening has restarted in NI and Scotland.
Rang up to see if I can get mine resceduled from March. "We are awaiting guidance from the govt...' 
Hmmm...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2020)

Mrs was quite upset yesterday as she took a call from a distressed lady who has been to GP with some form of chest pain.  As she has a family history of BC she was clearly very worried even though her GP thinks the chest pain is likely to be something not BC.  Her GP had made the woman a routine referral for a scan and other investigations...8 months.  Not good living with such worry for such a long time.  As highlighted in papers yesterday - BC screening and referrals has big problems with the huge backlog and reduced screening capacity.


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## bobmac (Oct 1, 2020)

The staff in Boots the chemist yesterday confused me.
During my visit, I saw 5 staff and only one wearing a mask.
In a chemist where people were collecting prescriptions. 
I thought masks were compulsory for shop staff now?


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## robinthehood (Oct 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The staff in Boots the chemist yesterday confused me.
During my visit, I saw 5 staff and only one wearing a mask.
In a chemist where people were collecting prescriptions. 
I thought masks were compulsory for shop staff now?
		
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Not in all circumstances. Like if they are behind a screen for example.


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## User62651 (Oct 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The staff in Boots the chemist yesterday confused me.
During my visit, I saw 5 staff and only one wearing a mask.
In a chemist where people were collecting prescriptions.
I thought masks were compulsory for shop staff now?
		
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I was in Boots yesterday too getting prescriptions, all staff were wearing masks. Is it a regional thing?


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## Slab (Oct 1, 2020)

The airport kinda reopens today after border was closed in March (limited flights & depends on eligibility to travel here)

Mandatory 14 day stay in a quarantine center for everyone arriving (that the traveler has to pay for themselves) and 3 neg covid tests spaced across the stay before the person is released to gen population

If you think its too strict, a flight arrived last week with 70 foreign workers who were all tested neg before travelling... 10 tested positive on arrival


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## GB72 (Oct 1, 2020)

Slab said:



			The airport kinda reopens today after border was closed in March (limited flights & depends on eligibility to travel here)

Mandatory 14 day stay in a quarantine center for everyone arriving (that the traveler has to pay for themselves) and 3 neg covid tests spaced across the stay before the person is released to gen population

If you think its too strict, a flight arrived last week with 70 foreign workers who were all tested neg before travelling... 10 tested positive on arrival
		
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This is what makes me nervous. Where i normally go there are a lot of US tourists. They only need a clear test within the last 7 days to enter. First concern is that these are home tests posted off so no guarantee that they are being done correctly or even on the person they say it is. The flights to where I go also involve a layover in Miami so they are going to a bit of a covid hotspot on the way as well. Not ideal.


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## huds1475 (Oct 1, 2020)

Been out of here for a, am amazed how many forum members have been involved in developing the t&t app.

The expertise on here is phenomenal 🤣


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## Ethan (Oct 1, 2020)

Slab said:



			If you think its too strict, a flight arrived last week with 70 foreign workers who were all tested neg before travelling... 10 tested positive on arrival
		
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Unless it was a very long flight, or some of the negative tests were a bit old, there is something rather odd about those numbers.


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## Slab (Oct 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Unless it was a very long flight, or some of the negative tests were a bit old, there is something rather odd about those numbers.
		
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Yeah I was surprised by the number but it could've been like GB72 describes in his scenario, neg test in last 7 days prior to departure (or even home test) Either way I'm glad all 70 had to go to quarantine on arrival and wish the 10 a speedy recovery


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## GB72 (Oct 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Unless it was a very long flight, or some of the negative tests were a bit old, there is something rather odd about those numbers.
		
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Honest question as I know nothing about these tests not having taken one. Is there any way that it can be ascertained that they have been correctly administered and taken by the person who says they have taken them. Seems all too easy not to collect the sample correctly or, in the case of a large group of workers if I being cynical, one person who is known to be clear takes a swab for everyone


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## Ethan (Oct 1, 2020)

Slab said:



			Yeah I was surprised by the number but it could've been like GB72 describes in his scenario, neg test in last 7 days prior to departure (or even home test) Either way I'm glad all 70 had to go to quarantine on arrival and wish the 10 a speedy recovery
		
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Unless they were a high risk group, or transmitted it amongst themselves on the plane (although it would take longer than a flight to become test positive), then 10/70 is a very high hit rate. I suspect the second set of tests has a few false positives. No real harm if they have to quarantine anyway.


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## Ethan (Oct 1, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Honest question as I know nothing about these tests not having taken one. Is there any way that it can be ascertained that they have been correctly administered and taken by the person who says they have taken them. Seems all too easy not to collect the sample correctly or, in the case of a large group of workers if I being cynical, one person who is known to be clear takes a swab for everyone
		
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Assuming they are doing a naso-pharynx swab, the biggest problem is usually missing the right place and getting a negative test even in a positive patient. False positives would normally occur due to the lab having an overly sensitive assay, or by cross contamination between samples. I suspect it is more likely that some of the 10 are false positives.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2020)

Pleasing to see this morning that BA have now extended their 'fly-by' date to end Oct for cancelling and getting a voucher.  Will check with our travel insurance to see if we can get a refund from the insurance if we cancel our flight to Valencia (due to fly there 16th) - if not there is always the voucher (to be used by end April 2022).


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## Slab (Oct 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Unless they were a high risk group, or transmitted it amongst themselves on the plane (although it would take longer than a flight to become test positive), then 10/70 is a very high hit rate. I suspect the second set of tests has a few false positives. No real harm if they have to quarantine anyway.
		
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Either false pos at this end or incorrectly cleared at departure end, either way as you say its just as well the whole lot were quarantined 
(p.s i got my dates wrong, they tested + on 1st Sept so they have all recovered/cleared by now)


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## fundy (Oct 1, 2020)

Slab said:



			Either false pos at this end or incorrectly cleared at departure end, either way as you say its just as well the whole lot were quarantined
(p.s i got my dates wrong, they tested + on 1st Sept so they have all recovered/cleared by now) 

Click to expand...


conspiracy theory alert

sounds like the perfect set of results if you want to ensure the public buy into what some would see as very severe quaranting requirement going forward


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## Slab (Oct 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Are they workers?
		
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Yup, so someone must've sponsored them for them to be able to travel here


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## Slab (Oct 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Yeah and if they're coming from a poor area, whoever is vastly profiting from them will have made sure that all their tests were negative.
		
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You cynic..... but it had crossed my mind too


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## larmen (Oct 1, 2020)

Yesterday I went to the supermarket much later than usual, 9pm instead of lunch time. I don't think I have ever seen that many people without mask in it at the same time. Is there like a mask free happy hour?

But I find people wearing a mask wrong even worse.

(probably should be in the rant threat)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pleasing to see this morning that BA have now extended their 'fly-by' date to end Oct for cancelling and getting a voucher.  Will check with our travel insurance to see if we can get a refund from the insurance if we cancel our flight to Valencia (due to fly there 16th) - if not there is always the voucher (to be used by end April 2022).
		
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Update - Travel Insurance says No as BA are providing a voucher.  So as far as Travel Insurance is concerned we do not suffer any financial loss.  Fair enough.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 1, 2020)

larmen said:



			Yesterday I went to the supermarket much later than usual, 9pm instead of lunch time. I don't think I have ever seen that many people without mask in it at the same time. Is there like a mask free happy hour?

But I find people wearing a mask wrong even worse.

(probably should be in the rant threat)
		
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Mask free, I try to think there is a genuine reason. Not always easy to do but lets think the best of people 🤔.

Mask wrong, usually pulled down from the nose, is just plain stupid. I also get slightly irrationally wound up by that one, you are not alone.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 1, 2020)

larmen said:



			Yesterday I went to the supermarket much later than usual, 9pm instead of lunch time. I don't think I have ever seen that many people without mask in it at the same time. Is there like a mask free happy hour?

But I find people wearing a mask wrong even worse.

(probably should be in the rant threat)
		
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Yes there is. 
It was the same pre masks. Free for all, no arrows, no queues. 

Dale winton comes out at 9.45 and everyone races round looking for inflatable produce with cash attached.


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## chellie (Oct 1, 2020)

larmen said:



			Yesterday I went to the supermarket much later than usual, 9pm instead of lunch time. I don't think I have ever seen that many people without mask in it at the same time. Is there like a mask free happy hour?

*But I find people wearing a mask wrong even worse.*

(probably should be in the rant threat)
		
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Oh yes, this is me!! Luckily I can eff and jeff at them without them knowing as I have my mask on correctly.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Mask free, I try to think there is a genuine reason. Not always easy to do but lets think the best of people 🤔.

Mask wrong, usually pulled down from the nose, is just plain stupid. I also get slightly irrationally wound up by that one, you are not alone.
		
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Given up trying to pull people up politely in the hospital and explain the risks to them and others. Most at the start were apologetic (some of the older people didn't even realise they had it on wrong) but as with a lot of things with this pandemic people seem to be becoming blase


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 2, 2020)

Seem El Presidento and Mrs El Presdiento have got it now.  Wonder how it will impact him and if it changes his views on it like it has said to have done for Boris. But I guess he'll be necking the hydroxychloroquine now.


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## User62651 (Oct 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seem El Presidento and Mrs El Presdiento have got it now.  Wonder how it will impact him and if it changes his views on it like it has said to have done for Boris. But I guess he'll be necking the hydroxychloroquine now.
		
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Should we believe this story?


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## GreiginFife (Oct 2, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Should we believe this story?
		
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I was wondering the same, gets a doing at the first debate, makes a meal of the Proud Boys situ, and has another debate on the horizon. 
Gets Cv-19, suddenly that's the news...


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## Ethan (Oct 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seem El Presidento and Mrs El Presdiento have got it now.  Wonder how it will impact him and if it changes his views on it like it has said to have done for Boris. But I guess he'll be necking the hydroxychloroquine now.
		
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Trump is in a high risk category, old age group and he knows who ate all the pies. I would never wish anyone ill, but a chastening experience for him might change US policy to save a few less privileged people.


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## User62651 (Oct 2, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I was wondering the same, gets a doing at the first debate, makes a meal of the Proud Boys situ, and has another debate on the horizon.
Gets Cv-19, suddenly that's the news...
		
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We can't really discuss that further, gets into the 'P' word.

If they have it good luck to them in their recovery.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 2, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			We can't really discuss that further, gets into the 'P' word.

If they have it good luck to them in their recovery.
		
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Agreed, but sooner or later someone with sense will see that most things in life, these days especially, are underpinned by the P word and avoiding it completely makes for sterile conversation .

Solve for the root cause, not the symptom... that's my motto


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 2, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			I was wondering the same, gets a doing at the first debate, makes a meal of the Proud Boys situ, and has another debate on the horizon.
Gets Cv-19, suddenly that's the news...
		
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Don't think it's fake.  About 90% of people have already made their minds up on who they will vote for, so the campaign is more about getting your voters out as opposed to convincing people to come over to your side.  So to energise his base I'd expect Trump to want to be out there saying the stuff he says, some may say dog whistling, I couldn't possibly comment.  So seems a strange move to deliberately remove himself from the opportunity to say things about proud boys etc.  Although I suppose he will still have twitter.


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## Temeura (Oct 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't think it's fake.  About 90% of people have already made their minds up on who they will vote for, so the campaign is more about getting your voters out as opposed to convincing people to come over to your side.  So to energise his base I'd expect Trump to want to be out there saying the stuff he says, some may say dog whistling, I couldn't possibly comment.  So seems a strange move to deliberately remove himself from the opportunity to say things about proud boys etc.  Although I suppose he will still have twitter.
		
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I agree, I think it is probably real but I can see reasons for them lying about this. If faked, he'll walk it off within a week to show what a strong man he is and try and paint Biden as a weak, old man. Trump loves being viewed as a Putin-esque strongman of politics.


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## Imurg (Oct 2, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Had my first cancellation due to symptoms within a bubble at the college.
Bubble sent home for a week as a precaution.
Fortunately I haven't seen the pupil since last Thursday so no issues for me..
And so it begins...
		
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#2 into isolation as her boy came home from school with a temperature...
Could be a quiet couple of weeks workwise at this rate.....


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## DRW (Oct 2, 2020)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-020-00808-x

Another T cell study, wonder when stuff like this will get much bigger coverage.

A riveting read


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## chrisd (Oct 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Trump is in a high risk category, old age group and he knows who ate all the pies. I would never wish anyone ill, but a chastening experience for him might change US policy to save a few less privileged people.
		
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No chance  - a couple of pints of Domestos to cleanse the inner body and he'll be back on the stage being as obnoxious as ever , with a miraculous recovery


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## spongebob59 (Oct 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No chance  - a couple of pints of Domestos to cleanse the inner body and he'll be back on the stage being as obnoxious as ever , with a miraculous recovery
		
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So much for taking 4 hydroxychloroquine daily.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No chance  - a couple of pints of Domestos to cleanse the inner body and he'll be back on the stage being as obnoxious as ever , with a miraculous recovery
		
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Exactly, popularity will improve off the back of him defeating the virus and showing how “great” he is.

Just before the election........


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 2, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.nature.com/articles/s41590-020-00808-x

Another T cell study, wonder when stuff like this will get much bigger coverage.

A riveting read

Click to expand...

Not gonna lie, I didn't understand a lot of that (basically nothing). Is it good or bad?


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## Ethan (Oct 2, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Not gonna lie, I didn't understand a lot of that (basically nothing). Is it good or bad?
		
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Good. It means that immunity isn't all about the antibodies. Some people have T-cells (a circulating immune cell) that also defend against Covid. There may be more real immunity in the population than assumed from results of antibody testing.


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## Mudball (Oct 2, 2020)

what is the positive test is Trumps final throw of the dice to get some sympathy votes....  he then skips a debate and then miraculously cures himself to win..       in case he loses, he can always blame the China virus..


his supporters will lap up any theory he comes up with


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Good. It means that immunity isn't all about the antibodies. Some people have T-cells (a circulating immune cell) that also defend against Covid. There may be more real immunity in the population than assumed from results of antibody testing.
		
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I knew he would eventually come to the aide of human kind. Just knew it.


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## Imurg (Oct 2, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I knew he would eventually come to the aide of human kind. Just knew it.

View attachment 32655

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Fool!


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## Backache (Oct 2, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			So much for taking 4 hydroxychloroquine daily.
		
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He'll get a few shots of remdesevir and be back to work as normal.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 2, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't think it's fake.  About 90% of people have already made their minds up on who they will vote for, so the campaign is more about getting your voters out as opposed to convincing people to come over to your side.  So to energise his base I'd expect Trump to want to be out there saying the stuff he says, some may say dog whistling, I couldn't possibly comment.  So seems a strange move to deliberately remove himself from the opportunity to say things about proud boys etc.  Although I suppose he will still have twitter.
		
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Yeah, but as Hils found out, that 10% can make a difference. Sadly that 10% are Murican and therefore easily led


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2020)

Temeura said:



			I agree, I think it is probably real but I can see reasons for them lying about this. If faked, he'll walk it off within a week to show what a strong man he is and try and paint Biden as a weak, old man. Trump loves being viewed as a Putin-esque strongman of politics.
		
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If it's real then all the President's men and women who have been in close proximity with him over the last few days (and there will have been many) will also have to go into isolation for the period of gestation and then while their tests are processed.  And that will include Kushner and Pence and many in the WH.  Meanwhile he and they will not be able to be out there energising his support and trying to convert the undecided to his cause.  Also remember that yesterday Trump was criticising Biden by claiming Biden was trying to get the next two debates cancelled.


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## patricks148 (Oct 2, 2020)

lets steer clear of the Political angle here please guys... thanks


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## larmen (Oct 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If it's real then all the President's men and women who have been in close proximity with him over the last few days (and there will have been many) will also have to go into isolation for the period of gestation and then while their tests are processed.  And that will include Kushner and Pence and many in the WH.  Meanwhile he and they will not be able to be out there energising his support and trying to convert the undecided to his cause.  Also remember that yesterday Trump was criticising Biden by claiming Biden was trying to get the next two debates cancelled.
		
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They get their tests done immediately and skip the line for the analysis to be done.
But why? I thought it is a hoax? That what his people say, right?


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 3, 2020)

I am now free! Two weeks of isolation over!

Since it started the weather has changed  and the forecast for tomorrow is not great. Might still golf if I have energy as still got a cough and feeling fatigued.


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## Ethan (Oct 3, 2020)

The Atlantic

A long but interesting article about the R number and superspreaders.


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## User62651 (Oct 3, 2020)

Got emailed by eldest's school this evening informing of a positive case, they're now tracking contacts so we await to hear who'll need to isolate and maybe get tested (symptoms only). Not too confident wrt the fact tracking in the classroom environment may be reasonable but 90% of the kids pile down to Tesco every lunchtime in a massive huddle, if the infected kid is amongst that how can you track/trace in that scenario? 
My mum is in our bubble as a sole occupier and we've just got to hers today for a visit (school hols) all within the rules. Intended staying a few days but may have to leave tomorrow depending on what we hear. Was a bit uncomfortable about coming tbh.

Also my Welsh niece and nephew's school hundreds of miles south in Gwynedd are in a similar situation, 4 kids testing positive there after a trip to Liverpool, they may or may not be sent home, up in the air.

Reading 12,800 new cases just today in UK, not good.

Is another hard lockdown becoming inevitable?


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## fundy (Oct 3, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Got emailed by eldest's school this evening informing of a positive case, they're now tracking contacts so we await to hear who'll need to isolate and maybe get tested (symptoms only). Not too confident wrt the fact tracking in the classroom environment may be reasonable but 90% of the kids pile down to Tesco every lunchtime in a massive huddle, if the infected kid is amongst that how can you track/trace in that scenario?
My mum is in our bubble as a sole occupier and we've just got to hers today for a visit (school hols) all within the rules. Intended staying a few days but may have to leave tomorrow depending on what we hear. Was a bit uncomfortable about coming tbh.

Also my Welsh niece and nephew's school hundreds of miles south in Gwynedd are in a similar situation, 4 kids testing positive there after a trip to Liverpool, they may or may not be sent home, up in the air.

Reading 12,800 new cases just today in UK, not good.

Is another hard lockdown becoming inevitable?
		
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sounds like a lot of old cases because shock horror theyve had technical issues with the reporting for over a week! doesnt mean the cases havent happened but isnt as massive a one day spike as it looks either


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## Leftitshort (Oct 3, 2020)

fundy said:



			sounds like a lot of old cases because shock horror theyve had technical issues with the reporting for over a week! doesnt mean the cases havent happened but isnt as massive a one day spike as it looks either
		
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Hysteria is just as contagious


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2020)

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/k-overlooked-variable-driving-pandemic/616548/

An interesting read.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 4, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Got emailed by eldest's school this evening informing of a positive case, they're now tracking contacts so we await to hear who'll need to isolate and maybe get tested (symptoms only). Not too confident wrt the fact tracking in the classroom environment may be reasonable but 90% of the kids pile down to Tesco every lunchtime in a massive huddle, if the infected kid is amongst that how can you track/trace in that scenario?
My mum is in our bubble as a sole occupier and we've just got to hers today for a visit (school hols) all within the rules. Intended staying a few days but may have to leave tomorrow depending on what we hear. Was a bit uncomfortable about coming tbh.

Also my Welsh niece and nephew's school hundreds of miles south in Gwynedd are in a similar situation, 4 kids testing positive there after a trip to Liverpool, they may or may not be sent home, up in the air.

Reading 12,800 new cases just today in UK, not good.

Is another hard lockdown becoming inevitable?
		
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Be very very surprised if we ever get a full lock down again. All it does is kick the can down the road. Even if they did they would want more of us to go to work with masks etc so wouldn't be as we saw before. Covid "safe" workplaces and all that.

The number of cases increase was always going to happen now we are allowed down the pub, to schools etc but it's the hospital admissions I'd keep an eye on because until a vaccine it's all got to be about goal one set out in march. Protect the NHS. Whilst cases are rising but people are following the rules on self isolating etc and hospitals aren't overun I can't see a full lockdown. Only hints I see to it are in scare mongering newspapers


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## SaintHacker (Oct 4, 2020)

Whilst I agree the country wouldn't financially survive another full hard extended lock down I think this 2 week 'circuit break' they are on about is looking ever more likely


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## pauljames87 (Oct 4, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Whilst I agree the country wouldn't financially survive another full hard extended lock down I think this 2 week 'circuit break' they are on about is looking ever more likely
		
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If it does happen will be tied to the schools.. half term just round corner extra week off

Then maybe another circuit breaker at Xmas (lots close for Xmas anyways)..maybe one in Feb tied with half term 

Would put the kids 2 weeks behind total which they already saying delay exams by 3 weeks .. so almost adds up a breaker every school holiday


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## AmandaJR (Oct 4, 2020)

Had a letter from the school I invigilate at saying there is a positive case but sounds like not in the year group doing mocks. That combined with the fact we've been told we must clean down every desk after every exam is enough to make me think it's not worth it this time round. Apparently the cleaning is something the teachers do after every lesson too...not sure that is true?!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Had a letter from the school I invigilate at saying there is a positive case but sounds like not in the year group doing mocks. That combined with the fact we've been told we must clean down every desk after every exam is enough to make me think it's not worth it this time round. Apparently the cleaning is something the teachers do after every lesson too...not sure that is true?!
		
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I know my mum does but she might be the exception


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## Imurg (Oct 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Had a letter from the school I invigilate at saying there is a positive case but sounds like not in the year group doing mocks. That combined with the fact we've been told we must clean down every desk after every exam is enough to make me think it's not worth it this time round. Apparently the cleaning is something the teachers do after every lesson too...not sure that is true?!
		
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I have to scrub down every possible "touch" surface in the car between lessons...wheel, stalks, mirror, visor, handles, seat adjusters,  handbrake, gearstick and anything else I can think of.. 
So it wouldn't surprise me if teachers do the same.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Had a letter from the school I invigilate at saying there is a positive case but sounds like not in the year group doing mocks. That combined with the fact we've been told we must clean down every desk after every exam is enough to make me think it's not worth it this time round. *Apparently the cleaning is something the teachers do after every lesson too...not sure that is true?!*

Click to expand...

Schools and teachers in particular are doing a hell of a lot of things to try and prevent the spread, including a lot of cleaning, minimizing sharing of stuff etc.  On every schools website will (should) be a risk assessment detailing all they are doing and they make interesting reading.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 4, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Whilst I agree the country wouldn't financially survive another full hard extended lock down I think this 2 week 'circuit break' they are on about is looking ever more likely
		
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Scots health guy did not think that a break is a good idea, he said that it would only delay the inevitable.
People sticking to the existing rules is the only answer.

Does not seem to be working in my wee village where many locals are not doing what they should be doing.

Households mixing, families up on holiday, kids parties etc.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Schools and teachers in particular are doing a hell of a lot of things to try and prevent the spread, including a lot of cleaning, minimizing sharing of stuff etc.  On every schools website will (should) be a risk assessment detailing all they are doing and they make interesting reading.
		
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Just read it. Students have to clean their desks BEFORE use. I think the Exams Officer added the "just as teacher's are doing" to make invigilators more receptive to the idea of cleaning after exams. As the bubbles are the whole year group I don't think I'm up for the risk nor cleaning duties.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Just read it. Students have to clean their desks BEFORE use. I think the Exams Officer added the "just as teacher's are doing" to make invigilators more receptive to the idea of cleaning after exams. As the bubbles are the whole year group *I don't think I'm up for the risk nor cleaning dutie*s.
		
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I think this highlights the situation teachers are in. It is of course your choice not to go in based on your perceived risk and personal circumstances, but teachers have no choice and are facing this on a daily basis. Which makes me angry when certain columnists from certain papers seem to portray them as striking workshy layabouts. But I'll stop now before I stray too much into the political arena.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think this highlights the situation teachers are in. It is of course your choice not to go in based on your perceived risk and personal circumstances, but teachers have no choice and are facing this on a daily basis. Which makes me angry when certain columnists from certain papers seem to portray them as striking workshy layabouts. But I'll stop now before I stray too much into the political arena.
		
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It does BUT I am on zero hours and basic (living) wage so our circumstances job-wise are quite different.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots health guy did not think that a break is a good idea, he said that it would only delay the inevitable.
People sticking to the existing rules is the only answer.

Does not seem to be working in my wee village where many locals are not doing what they should be doing.

Households mixing, families up on holiday, kids parties etc.

Click to expand...

Indeed. My guess is they keep trying to delay it, using school holidays, until a vaccine becomes widely available. 
Unfortunately when you try and do something involving the general public using a bit of common sense and thought for others it rarely ends well, selfish people will look for any little loophole they can find to get out of a rule that dont like,you only have to look at a few replies to this thread for proof of that...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2020)

Is the coronavirus going home for Christmas Lunch with it’s family so the rest of us can get on with having a lovely family day.  Would be nice if it did - apparently the turkey farmers need to know 🎄🦃🦃


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## Old Skier (Oct 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is the coronavirus going home for Christmas Lunch with it’s family so the rest of us can get on with having a lovely family day.  Would be nice if it did - apparently the turkey farmers need to know 🎄🦃🦃
		
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Why do you think it is


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Why do you think it is
		
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There was an article on the BBC yesterday about the rule of 6 being removed for Xmas Day so that families could get together.


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## Old Skier (Oct 4, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was an article on the BBC yesterday about the rule of 6 being removed for Xmas Day so that families could get together.
		
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Bugger, there's my excuse for not driving for 5 hrs gone out the window..


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 4, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Bugger, there's my excuse for not driving for 5 hrs gone out the window..
		
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Just make up a reason .
A ban on driving more than an hour should do!
A little cough Christmas Eve .


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 4, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was an article on the BBC yesterday about the rule of 6 being removed for Xmas Day so that families could get together.
		
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That must be a joke surely! Will the virus be in a festive spirit? 

Bet all those who complain about those who break the guidance and rules will be having all the family round and claiming a socially distanced dinner!


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## KenL (Oct 4, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Whilst I agree the country wouldn't financially survive another full hard extended lock down I think this 2 week 'circuit break' they are on about is looking ever more likely
		
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It will achieve nothing.  There will be enough people breaking rules to keep it ticking over.


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## KenL (Oct 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Schools and teachers in particular are doing a hell of a lot of things to try and prevent the spread, including a lot of cleaning, minimizing sharing of stuff etc.  On every schools website will (should) be a risk assessment detailing all they are doing and they make interesting reading.
		
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Desks are sprayed and wiped every lesson and kids use hand gel when they enter rooms.  Pupils wear masks in corridors and teachers wear masks when near pupils.
Makes for a tiring day!


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## KenL (Oct 4, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was an article on the BBC yesterday about the rule of 6 being removed for Xmas Day so that families could get together.
		
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I really hope that is not true.  Spend the whole year trying to get rid of it to chuck it away at Christmas is a mistake in my book.


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## road2ruin (Oct 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			It will achieve nothing.  There will be enough people breaking rules to keep it ticking over.
		
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Even if there was 100% compliance it wouldn’t achieve anything other than prolonging the issue.


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## Mudball (Oct 4, 2020)

Well got a letter from the headmaster that is a positive case in the school.  It does not identify if staff or student.  From the letter it sounds like a Year 3 child.  Hence all those in the Y3 bubble will have to stay at home.   The Y3 staff have been tested and currently waiting results.  If indeed this is true, then it squashes the theory that young children cant get it and therefore dont transmit it to staff.


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## Ethan (Oct 4, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Well got a letter from the headmaster that is a positive case in the school.  It does not identify if staff or student.  From the letter it sounds like a Year 3 child.  Hence all those in the Y3 bubble will have to stay at home.   The Y3 staff have been tested and currently waiting results.  If indeed this is true, then it squashes the theory that young children cant get it and therefore dont transmit it to staff.
		
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Nobody said that children couldn't get it, but that they are much less likely to get a symptomatic case than older kids or adults, or to do badly.


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## Mudball (Oct 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Nobody said that children couldn't get it, but that they are much less likely to get a symptomatic case than older kids or adults, or to do badly.
		
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Apologies that is true...  my pub visit means i cant think correctly.   The one i wanted to raise was more around kids being spreaders rather than being symptomatic.  Assuming this was a 8 year old - they are now having the teaching staff checked over, their own parents/grans and also parents/grans of kids in his/her bubble.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There was an article on the BBC yesterday about the rule of 6 being removed for Xmas Day so that families could get together.
		
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Before the anti-beebers get going...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ints-hell-suspend-Rule-Six-Christmas-Day.html


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 4, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Well got a letter from the headmaster that is a positive case in the school.  It does not identify if staff or student.  From the letter it sounds like a Year 3 child.  Hence all those in the Y3 bubble will have to stay at home.   The Y3 staff have been tested and currently waiting results.  If indeed this is true, then it squashes the theory that young children cant get it and therefore dont transmit it to staff.
		
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My son's class, year 2 are currently isolating, year 1 are currently isolating and reception class have just started back after isolating.

Small school in an area of low infection rates.

The school year for all ages is going to be very stop start with several periods of isolation I suspect.


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## Mudball (Oct 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Before the anti-beepers get going - I didn’t see it on the BBC...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ints-hell-suspend-Rule-Six-Christmas-Day.html

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Maybe the virus is Christian and therefore does not work on the 25th.  It too needs a day off. It has already stopped working after 10pm.

BTW. will Boris now blame everyone for spreading the virus during Christmas.  He seems to now say that it was peoples fault for taking part in 'Eat Out' scheme..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Maybe the virus is Christian and therefore does not work on the 25th.  It too needs a day off. It has already stopped working after 10pm.

BTW. will Boris now blame everyone for spreading the virus during Christmas.  He seems to now say that it was peoples fault for taking part in 'Eat Out' scheme..
		
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Maybe - though I doubt it...


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## garyinderry (Oct 4, 2020)

I dont really think you can decide to relax things for one day as people take piss.  One day turns into two and in turn becomes a few and some will completely take the piss and do exactly what they want.


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## Imurg (Oct 4, 2020)

How do people feel about Trick or Treat this year..?
I have to say it doesnt strike me as a good idea.


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## garyinderry (Oct 4, 2020)

Imurg said:



			How do people feel about Trick or Treat this year..?
I have to say it doesnt strike me as a good idea.
		
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Derry is know for throwing the biggest Halloween party in the UK. They have finally put to bed the idea of having some celebrations this year. 

Partly due to the fact we have now become one of the highest areas per 100,000 in a short space of time. 

Some linking the increase to a 10 day fun fair that was in operation around the 11th of September. 

I remember seeing the big wheel from my window at work and couldn't belive my eyes. We couldn't use a rake at golf and this was in town. You couldn't make it up.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 4, 2020)

Imurg said:



			How do people feel about Trick or Treat this year..?
I have to say it doesnt strike me as a good idea.
		
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Certainly won't be taking my two out going door to door. However, our town are encouraging people to display a pumpkin in their windows and then families can go on a pumpkin trail with the kids. Every time they spot one we put a sweet in their bucket.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 4, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			I dont really think you can decide to relax things for one day as people take piss.  One day turns into two and in turn becomes a few and some will completely take the piss and do exactly what they want.
		
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The last thing I could imagine letting a country do in a “pandemic” is allow a mass infectious scenario for one day. Want covid with your gravy grandma? 
And it won’t be for one day, it’ll be Christmas Eve, Boxing Day And then it’ll be back to screaming “wear your damn mask”! 

Absolute farcical that I can hear the twilight zone theme tune.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 4, 2020)

KenL said:



			Desks are sprayed and wiped every lesson and kids use hand gel when they enter rooms.  Pupils wear masks in corridors and teachers wear masks when near pupils.
Makes for a tiring day!
		
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Tell HID about it. She has been seconded from her HR role along with another lady to do nothing but walk around the school spraying the hand rails, door handles, dining areas, toilets as well as supplying every class with their own supply of cloths so they can wipe down their class after each lesson (and wash the dirty ones). Masks are mandatory for the kids in the corridors, library, common room, dining hall etc


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## pauljames87 (Oct 4, 2020)

Imurg said:



			How do people feel about Trick or Treat this year..?
I have to say it doesnt strike me as a good idea.
		
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One paper was moaning that Boris had ruined Halloween

Sorry  but if you need the gov to tell you that during a global pandemic going from door to door collecting things and taking them home to eat then you really are stupid (not you just a rant)

Who cares about Halloween.. always next year. Move on


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## ScienceBoy (Oct 4, 2020)

Pumpkins going outside the back door this year and visiting our own house only, still get the fun but don't mix households.

Xmas is going to just be 5 of us, rather than the usual 14 or so and be a very curtailed affair. Minimize risk to the grandparents is priority.



pauljames87 said:



			One paper was moaning that Boris had ruined Halloween
		
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 It is pointless to blame the government for a global pandemic, it is happening and needs to be dealt with, plenty of time for analysis of it later. I think that is probably as far as we can go as we shouldn't get political around here, this is a golf forum after all.


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## AdamW (Oct 4, 2020)

Just a quick one but can anyone recommend  a washable mask which doesn't steam up with glasses? Having a nightmare shopping with mine


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## GB72 (Oct 4, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Just a quick one but can anyone recommend  a washable mask which doesn't steam up with glasses? Having a nightmare shopping with mine
		
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Any with the metal band over the nose that you can bend to make a seal. Got mine on Etsy


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## KenL (Oct 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			How do people feel about Trick or Treat this year..?
I have to say it doesnt strike me as a good idea.
		
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Ban it.


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## KenL (Oct 5, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Just a quick one but can anyone recommend  a washable mask which doesn't steam up with glasses? Having a nightmare shopping with mine
		
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Try some glasses cleaning spray.  I have one bought from Asda opticians and specs don't fog after using this.


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## Mudball (Oct 5, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Just a quick one but can anyone recommend  a washable mask which doesn't steam up with glasses? Having a nightmare shopping with mine
		
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Get one of these... simples..


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 5, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Just a quick one but can anyone recommend  a washable mask which doesn't steam up with glasses? Having a nightmare shopping with mine
		
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KenL has it right. You have to deal with the glasses rather than the mask.


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## drdel (Oct 5, 2020)

Slide a pipe cleaner into the top seam after cutting it to the correct length.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			How do people feel about Trick or Treat this year..?
I have to say it doesnt strike me as a good idea.
		
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I doubt many elderly (or indeed any of us) would find it very nice having half a doz kids at their door 'demanding money with menaces' (as that is what 'trick or treat' seems to me - and what guising never was)

If a neighbour or a friend with children let me know in advance that theirs - maybe with a few others - would like to come round and would I be OK with that - then fine.  I'd welcome them to my door.

But random children/youths?  No thankyou.  Sorry.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			KenL has it right. You have to deal with the glasses rather than the mask.
		
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For normal daily mixed 'use' - I wear varifocal glasses - my contacts prescription is for distance (leisure) use.  However, fed up with steaming up - I got a 'reading' prescription sorted for the contact lens of my left (non-dominant) eye.  By wearing my distance/normal lens in my dominant (right) eye and the reading lens in my left eye, I can do normal mixed 'use' with contacts in.  Not perfect of course, but perfectly adequate and no issues whatsoever,  And so steaming up need no longer be an issue for me if I so choose.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 5, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Just a quick one but can anyone recommend  a washable mask which doesn't steam up with glasses? Having a nightmare shopping with mine
		
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Just tuck the top of the mask under the bridge of your glasses.  You may need to position your glasses a little bit further down your nose but that works for me for the limited time I am shopping nowadays.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Reading between the lines of what I am hearing - our Test, Trace and Isolate system uses an Excel spreadsheet as the data exchange mechanism between our Testing system and our Track and Trace system.  And the number of records exceeded the Excel limit - and so 16,000 didn't get exported from the former to the latter.  Well...using Excel for the critical integration aspect of one of the UK's most critical systems.  And we are paying many, many 10s of millions for this system.  I am rather gob-smacked...


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reading between the lines of what I am hearing - our Test, Trace and Isolate system uses an Excel spreadsheet as the data exchange mechanism between our Testing system and our Track and Trace system.  And the number of records exceeded the Excel limit - and so 16,000 didn't get exported from the former to the latter.  Well...using Excel for the critical integration aspect of one of the UK's most critical systems.  And we are paying many, many 10s of millions for this system.  I am rather gob-smacked...
		
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Be interesting to know where you have got you info from


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Be interesting to know where you have got you info from
		
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rumour...

But surely nonsense as they would be using a proper database (or at least current Excel rather than a very limited old version).  Anyway let's hear what Matt Hancock tells us from the HoC at 11:30.  He'll know.


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## Beezerk (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Be interesting to know where you have got you info from
		
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Be Facebook obviously 👀


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			rumour...

But surely nonsense as they would be using a proper database (or at least current Excel rather than a very limited old version).  Anyway let's hear what Matt Hancock tells us from the HoC at 11:30.  He'll know.
		
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If it’s rumour why publish until it’s fact


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If it’s rumour why publish until it’s fact
		
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The Daily Mail is my rumour monger...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-16-000-Covid-cases-missed-Excel-glitch.html

I really shouldn't take in what I read in the press...


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Daily Mail is my rumour monger...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-16-000-Covid-cases-missed-Excel-glitch.html

I really shouldn't take in what I read in the press...
		
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I see your back to being selective about what you want to believe in that rag   always wondered who paid to read such rubbish


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I see your back to being selective about what you want to believe in that rag   always wondered who paid to read such rubbish
		
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Nice deflection mate, first you try the pi@@ take and then when he gives you his “source” you get personal.


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nice deflection mate, first you try the pi@@ take and then when he gives you his “source” you get personal. 

Click to expand...

By mentioning his selectivity, fine nice post.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			By mentioning his selectivity, fine nice post.
		
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That’s your interpretation, he simply provided his “source” when challenged.

How many “sources” did you require?
Maybe give him a list of your approved “sources” or accept it’s a bit more than rumour or facebook.


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## Billysboots (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Daily Mail is my rumour monger...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-16-000-Covid-cases-missed-Excel-glitch.html

I really shouldn't take in what I read in the press...
		
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Really? 

I follow DM sport, but have always tried to avoid their “news” pages like, well, a virus, because their articles are invariably made up trash.

There has been an awful lot of scaremongering during this pandemic but head and shoulders above all the rest, for their creative writing and use of emotive language, intended I am quite sure to spread fear and panic, has been the Daily Mail. They should be closed down.


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s your interpretation, he simply provided his “source” when challenged.

How many “sources” did you require?
Maybe give him a list of your approved “sources” or accept it’s a bit more than rumour or facebook.

Click to expand...

He also stated they were rumour mongering, exactly what his first post was.


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## robinthehood (Oct 5, 2020)

Excel can handle a little over 1 million rows and over 16000 columns.
That's a lot of scrolling 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He also stated they were rumour mongering, exactly what his first post was.
		
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Not the DM - rumour mongering?

Anyway - apparently Hancock is in HoC this pm not this am.  He'll tell us what's happened.

See what happens when you tend to believe what you read in the Daily Mail...you can be led to reach the wrong conclusions...

Should probably be using SQL or something more robust in any case.


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## robinthehood (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not the DM - rumour mongering?

Anyway - apparently Hancock is in HoC this pm not this am.  He'll tell us what's happened.

See what happens when you tend to believe what you read in the Daily Mail...you can be led to reach the wrong conclusions...

Should probably be using SQL or something more robust in any case.
		
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Depends what it is your doing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He also stated they were rumour mongering, exactly what his first post was.
		
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It’s ok mate it’s on Sky and BBC now, just described as a software glitch.

You can turn your SILH alert button back on.


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s ok mate it’s on Sky and BBC now, just described as a software glitch.

You can turn your SILH alert button back on.

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Thanks, permission accepted


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Thanks, permission accepted
		
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You’re welcome. It’s not easy for you Tankies at times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Depends what it is your doing.
		
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A pretty 'business critical' system would generally merit more than Excel...especially when SQL Enterprise costs pennies in the scheme of the costs of T, T & I.


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A pretty 'business critical' system would generally merit more than Excel...especially when SQL Enterprise costs pennies in the scheme of the costs of T, T & I.
		
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Issues that are normally down to lack of planning training and scaling and IT systems not being fully tested. Common in all areas of business and governments.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 5, 2020)




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## Jimaroid (Oct 5, 2020)

Anyone with basic computer science credentials will have immediately suspected a monumentally stupid error when a numerical error is close to a power of 2, as 16,384 is.

So it comes to me as no surprise that nobody in this £12bn farce noticed.

Root cause aside, and whether or not it was indeed caused by a limitation of Excel, the astonishingly amateur mistake of not verifying the output number is the same as the input number is unspeakably stupid and comes as no surprise from the shower of muppets in charge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Issues that are normally down to lack of planning training and scaling and IT systems not being fully tested. Common in all areas of business and governments.
		
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Indeed - but not that common for business _critical _systems - systems for which testing should be subject to intensive customer scrutiny prior to sign-off for live operation. 

Yes of course things can go wrong - especially when there are aspects of a system that cannot be tested in a TEST or 'Staging' environment.  So here the Covid-19 Testing System may not have a TEST or 'Staging' environment accessible to any separate Track and Trace system (or vice-versa) - and as a consequence full pre-live integration testing might not be possible.

But as a customer that would not be a very clever situation to get yourself into when your suppliers cannot fully test a critical integration aspect of the end-2-end system - unless legacy systems forced you there.  As it happens the integration clearly must work - but some pretty basic integration requirements have either been missed, or overlooked in the testing.  I struggle to imagine a set of requirements that would not have included a statement of the sort '...the Testing system must be able to manage up to XXk people records a day and pass these records to the T&T system'

If this is indeed something as stupidly simple as an Excel record capacity limit.


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - but not that common for business _critical _systems - systems for which testing should be subject to intensive customer scrutiny prior to sign-off for live operation.  

Yes of course things can go wrong - especially when there are aspects of a system that cannot be tested in a TEST or 'Staging' environment.  So here the Covid-19 Testing System may not have a TEST or 'Staging' environment accessible to any separate Track and Trace system - and as a consequence pre-live integration testing might not be possible.

But as a customer that would not be a very clever situation to get yourself into when your suppliers cannot fully test a critical integration aspect of the end-2-end system - unless legacy systems forced you there.  As it happens the integration clearly must work - but some pretty basic integration requirements have either been missed or overlooked.

If this is indeed something as stupidly simple as an Excel record capacity limit.
		
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As someone who has spent the last 20 years in IT I can assure you that it is more common than you may think that there are failings on new mission critical systems. Banks have done it and it’s very common in the public sector and it’s normally because some “expert” convinces management that “it will be fine”.


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## AdamW (Oct 5, 2020)

Gym has told us we have to use mask walking between equipment from tomorrow but not when working out. Not sure if I missed the news on that?

They said government guidelines were making them do it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			As someone who has spent the last 20 years in IT I can assure you that it is more common than you may think that there are failings on new mission critical systems. Banks have done it and it’s very common in the public sector and it’s normally because some “expert” convinces management that “it will be fine”.
		
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Indeed - banks often struggle replacing or integrating new finance/customer systems with their massive (often Cobol) legacy systems...but we are not talking complex financial records in ancient legacy systems here. 

Maybe 'management' would be less accepting of 'expert' advice if they knew that the system had huge public visibility and that it was critical to the health of the nation (literally).


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## chellie (Oct 5, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Gym has told us we have to use mask walking between equipment from tomorrow but not when working out. Not sure if I missed the news on that?

They said government guidelines were making them do it
		
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We've been asked to wear one when going into the building to get to the gym equipment not walking between equipment.


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## Slab (Oct 5, 2020)

The supermarket has started temperature testing again since the border partially reopened last week (even though everyone arriving goes to a quarantine center)

Played golf at an away course a week ago and moving between clubhouse, on-course villa & beachclub we were temp tested several times every day bu no masks needed at that time

Face masks are a pop-up industry now with no end of options/designs of fabric masks available. Rule unchanged, _if out of the house you must wear a mask_


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## Mudball (Oct 5, 2020)

been off and looks like the conversation is about the Excel 'software glitch'.  While it sounds end of the world for everyone - i am not surprised by the use of Excel.  Excel is potentially one of the most used data mapping tool when it comes to databases.  You will be surprised how many banks, insurance, defence etc run on Excel.  

Having said that, i am using that as an excuse for what happened.   Usually, you want to have a check-balance process - which might be a simple visual check on # of records, checksum etc.  

I would easily choose Excel as President of the United States


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## Jimaroid (Oct 5, 2020)

Excel is generally an excellent bit of software, it's pretty well engineered and has IMO been the standalone product that's justified buying into Office for the last 20 years. 

The problem is, just like an AK-47, any excellent bit of engineering when given to a monkey can cause a great deal of damage.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 5, 2020)

chellie said:



			We've been asked to wear one when going into the building to get to the gym equipment not walking between equipment.
		
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Ditto. Although they've also now stopped the need to book into a specific session. Not sure now is the time to be relaxing things.


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## drdel (Oct 5, 2020)

Interesting that we criticise and condem 'experts' yet when giving our own opinion we expect our knowledge/expert view to take priority over a lay person.

"People who do nothing wrong, do nothing" attributed to H Ford.


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## chellie (Oct 5, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Ditto. Although they've also now stopped the need to book into a specific session. Not sure now is the time to be relaxing things.
		
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The no booking seems an odd thing to do.


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## Mudball (Oct 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			If Excel has been used it’s a clear sign that no IT experts have been involved. Classic approach by business users who think they know what they’re doing.
		
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Quiet the opposite I would have thought. Systems have been cobbled together in haste. Testing systems never had to integrate with any central database/reporting systems. Most would be fairly siloed systems. The fastest integration would have been a simple Excel with some FTP for transport. 
‘Management’/Politicians would have no clue about integration but would rather focus on cute looking charts. 
There might have been a proposal for a more robust integration platform, but that would have scrapped.  Now everyone would be breathing down that junior guy in Accenture/Capita who initially provided the correct design. 

I wonder what ‘The Register’ would have to say on this. I could post the ‘Data Loss’ video from Thick of It but it is not allowed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			If Excel has been used it’s a clear sign that no IT experts have been involved. Classic approach by business users who think they know what they’re doing.
		
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Apparently from Hancock the issue was with legacy system(s) that plans are in place to replace.  You would expect him to have known of issues with one or more of his critical systems(s) and hence would have known of the associated risks.  Maybe he wasn't told that one of his critical systems was hanging on a shoogly peg.   Meanwhile the good news reported is that 51% of those missed have now been contacted...


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## Old Skier (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Apparently from Hancock the issue was with legacy system(s) that plans are in place to replace.  You would expect him to have known of issues with one or more of his critical systems(s) and hence would have known of the associated risks.  Maybe he wasn't told that one of his critical systems was hanging on a shoogly peg.   Meanwhile the good news reported is that 51% of those missed have now been contacted...
		
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The risk appears to have been identified and new systems are in the process of being built. Rush it and the same thing will happen again. This is a long term issue that must not be rushed.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I doubt many elderly (or indeed any of us) would find it very nice having half a doz kids at their door 'demanding money with menaces' (as that is what 'trick or treat' seems to me - and what guising never was)

If a neighbour or a friend with children let me know in advance that theirs - maybe with a few others - would like to come round and would I be OK with that - then fine.  I'd welcome them to my door.

But random children/youths?  No thankyou.  Sorry.
		
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Just tell them to come back when they're younger.
Said that once to youths.Walked away for three steps before the penny dropped.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The risk appears to have been identified and new systems are in the process of being built. Rush it and the same thing will happen again. This is a long term issue that must not be rushed.
		
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Yes the risk was identified but somehow what happened still happened - and that's not good risk management, though on the surface nothing to do with Hancock.  Though someone reporting to Hancock on the IT systems providing E2E 3Ts should have been on top of the risk.

We should not make excuses about the failings here - this happened and it shouldn't have - and given the nature of the failure that alone is not acceptable and is not defensible.  It could and should have been avoided.

The fact that for some this builds on, at best, a 'perception' of government mis-handling of 3Ts is unfortunate for Hancock.  He most certainly didn't need it.  And public confidence in the 3Ts system didn't need it (BTW - in not blaming the government for this I aim to not be political.  This is all about service governance)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

Kaz said:



			The cheap and dirty integration route would have been to use a flat CSV file. The only way Excel would be involved is if that was where the source data was held.
		
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Feels to me something like a load of spreadsheets or .csv files of testing results data from here, there and everywhere being brought together and loaded into a 'central' Testing logging system - and the resulting aggregated Testing data set being too large for the export file from that system that has then to be loaded into the Test and Trace system.  Or something like that.  A bit poor really.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2020)

Rolls Royce once decided to make the turbine blades for its RB2-11 gas turbine engine out of carbon fibre due to it being light and strong in torsion.  They later found when putting it in service the carbon fibre broke down in heavy rain.  It just about bankrupted the company.
Has anyone never made a mistake?


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## Mudball (Oct 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Rolls Royce once decided to make the turbine blades for its RB2-11 gas turbine engine out of carbon fibre due to it being light and strong in torsion.  They later found when putting it in service the carbon fibre broke down in heavy rain.  It just about bankrupted the company.
Has anyone never made a mistake?
		
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Plenty.... here are a few famous ones >> Great miscalculations: The French railway error and 10 others http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27509559


However software integration is a well understood process. So you would expect a decent level of (software integration) testing. Sh**t happens in software , but cant hide behind it. 

This will shake confidence... I would appreciate honesty rather than spin about rouge algorithms and zombie programs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Rolls Royce once decided to make the turbine blades for its RB2-11 gas turbine engine out of carbon fibre due to it being light and strong in torsion.  They later found when putting it in service the carbon fibre broke down in heavy rain.  It just about bankrupted the company.
Has anyone never made a mistake?
		
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There is no need to make excuses for the company or whoever was managing the system. Yes we all make mistakes - but that does not excuse the mistake - especially when the system has massive public visibility and potential damage to public health and confidence.

Also we have heard about this error - but as they did not pick up on this error straight away have they checked back all previously data loads and transfers to assure us that this was the first time that the limit (or whatever it was that went wrong) was not exceeded and that data was not lost from earlier transfers.


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## Ethan (Oct 6, 2020)

On Sky last night, one of their reporters was explaining how the problem occurred and he said that it is never a good idea to use Excel as a database management tool, it isn't one. The basic problem here is the NHS IT infrastructure. Those with a long memory will recall that NHS IT disasters are common, and this one occurred because PHE just didn't have up to date or well integrated systems. That is not PHE's fault, the same problem which affects every other part of the NHS. It would seem obvious that at the start of this process when Serco-Deloitte Test and Trace was being plugged in, that someone should have checked that the systems were adequately robust.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 6, 2020)

Had a meeting yesterday and officially redundant - 12 weeks notice starts on the 8th October and finish on 31st December. The company claims covid but I'm sure they had this in the planning for a while. Still ridiculously busy and the staff taking over from another group company are beginning to realise what they'll have to cope with - good luck to them!!

Onwards and upwards!


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## GB72 (Oct 6, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Had a meeting yesterday and officially redundant - 12 weeks notice starts on the 8th October and finish on 31st December. The company claims covid but I'm sure they had this in the planning for a while. Still ridiculously busy and the staff taking over from another group company are beginning to realise what they'll have to cope with - good luck to them!!

Onwards and upwards!
		
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This happened during the credit crunch, companies using it as an excuse to cut wage bills to the bone whilst telling those that remained that they should just put up with it as they were lucky to have a job.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 6, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Had a meeting yesterday and officially redundant - 12 weeks notice starts on the 8th October and finish on 31st December. The company claims covid but I'm sure they had this in the planning for a while. Still ridiculously busy and the staff taking over from another group company are beginning to realise what they'll have to cope with - good luck to them!!

Onwards and upwards!
		
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Sorry to hear that. What do you do? If the other company are going to struggle is there any chance of some temp work with them. Seems daft to lose valuable knowledge and watch people struggle


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## Mudball (Oct 6, 2020)

more on the Excel hancockup  
https://www.theregister.com/2020/10/05/excel_england_coronavirus_contact_error/ 

As always the comments can be more funny than the actual story..


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## drdel (Oct 6, 2020)

Looks like the majority of posts are not about how COVID has impacted 'you' but turned ìnto '_political_ ' moaning.


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## Jimaroid (Oct 6, 2020)

Ethan said:



			On Sky last night, one of their reporters was explaining how the problem occurred and he said that it is never a good idea to use Excel as a database management tool, it isn't one. The basic problem here is the NHS IT infrastructure. Those with a long memory will recall that NHS IT disasters are common, and this one occurred because PHE just didn't have up to date or well integrated systems. That is not PHE's fault, the same problem which affects every other part of the NHS. It would seem obvious that at the start of this process when Serco-Deloitte Test and Trace was being plugged in, that someone should have checked that the systems were adequately robust.
		
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Indeed. There are conflicting reports about the root technical cause. Some say it was due to a column limit, others say it was due to a row limit (either or both are feasible), some say it was due to .xls vs .csv file formats which raises skepticism because CSV files are not inherently constrained in any dimension, they can be as big as the largest file permissable in the filesystem.

Anyway to my point. The factual confusion is familiar territory - media reporting of IT issues is nearly always inadequate and in-expertly dubious - but what is common amongst all of the reporting is that the version of software being used at PHE was obsolete and this problem wouldn't have occurred for the sake of a ~ £100 software license upgrade. Out of the £10bn (It's risen to £12bn I think?) available to test and trace, it's a staggering incompetence of oversight. It is a human error.

There is nothing inherently "bad" about Excel - it is fundamentally a good piece of software that is incredibly (overly?) versatile. The outcries of "use a real database" is fair but it is just as easy to make mistakes with those as it is with Excel - SQL is an awfully error prone language. The root issue in this case won't be solved by a database, they don't automatically solve the problem of data transfer between disparate systems, data has to be exported from one system and imported into another. There are many "reliable" ways to do this, most of them based around a concept of a well structured text file, and all of them are subject to a chance of failure or error.

So we come to the second human error. The simple lack of introspection that should be part of any systems or data engineering task, "Is the output the same as we expected from the input?" It seems nobody appears to have asked this question until it was too late. That says more to me about the shambolic situation than blaming the tools being used.

"A bad workman blames his tools"

(None of this is a dig at NHS staff whom I hold in high regard btw. Mistakes happen, especially in times of crisis with an under-funded, under-resourced and over-stressed environment. Anyway, I think this is last I'm going to say on this matter because the situation of a crisis managed by clowns is making me depressed and angry)


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## robinthehood (Oct 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Looks like the majority of posts are not about how COVID has impacted 'you' but turned ìnto '_political_ ' moaning.
		
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If you dont like it, hit the report button, mess ups like the one being discussed affect us all.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2020)

drdel said:



			Looks like the majority of posts are not about how COVID has impacted 'you' but turned ìnto '_political_ ' moaning.
		
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Nope - they are all just commenting on the IT system, Serco and PHE - and public reporting of the mess.  I think we can all agree that what has and has not happened is unacceptable and therefore comment and criticism of Serco and PHE is valid and not political. After all - at the moment none of us know whether we are in scope of tracing that has not yet been completed and so this mess might impact any of us.  As might any future similar problem. We should therefore all be concerned - and confident that Hancock has read the Riot Act to Serco and PHE.


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## pendodave (Oct 6, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Indeed. There are conflicting reports about the root technical cause. Some say it was due to a column limit, others say it was due to a row limit (either or both are feasible), some say it was due to .xls vs .csv file formats which raises skepticism because CSV files are not inherently constrained in any dimension, they can be as big as the largest file permissable in the filesystem.

Anyway to my point. The factual confusion is familiar territory - media reporting of IT issues is nearly always inadequate and in-expertly dubious - but what is common amongst all of the reporting is that the version of software being used at PHE was obsolete and this problem wouldn't have occurred for the sake of a ~ £100 software license upgrade. Out of the £10bn (It's risen to £12bn I think?) available to test and trace, it's a staggering incompetence of oversight. It is a human error.

There is nothing inherently "bad" about Excel - it is fundamentally a good piece of software that is incredibly (overly?) versatile. The outcries of "use a real database" is fair but it is just as easy to make mistakes with those as it is with Excel - SQL is an awfully error prone language. The root issue in this case won't be solved by a database, they don't automatically solve the problem of data transfer between disparate systems, data has to be exported from one system and imported into another. There are many "reliable" ways to do this, most of them based around a concept of a well structured text file, and all of them are subject to a chance of failure or error.

So we come to the second human error. The simple lack of introspection that should be part of any systems or data engineering task, "Is the output the same as we expected from the input?" It seems nobody appears to have asked this question until it was too late. That says more to me about the shambolic situation than blaming the tools being used.

"A bad workman blames his tools"

(None of this is a dig at NHS staff whom I hold in high regard btw. Mistakes happen, especially in times of crisis with an under-funded, under-resourced and over-stressed environment. Anyway, I think this is last I'm going to say on this matter because the situation of a crisis managed by clowns is making me depressed and angry)
		
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I agree with this post almost completely...
But "SQL is an awfully error prone language."??? Not sure about that. Sql is an implementation of mathematical set theory on which relational databases are based (or it was last time I worked in data warehousing). Errors I encountered were always a lack of understanding/training by designers or users.
"The key, the whole key and nothing but the key. So help me Codd".
Rather like excel, it's apparent ease of use leads to shoddy work by those who shouldn't, it's not the tools per se.
Building computer systems used to be done in a similar way to building other engineering products. For some time it's been done without rigour, planning, testing etc. What has happened is depressing but entirely predictable.


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## Mudball (Oct 6, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I agree with this post almost completely...
But "SQL is an awfully error prone language."??? Not sure about that. Sql is an implementation of mathematical set theory on which relational databases are based (or it was last time I worked in data warehousing). Errors I encountered were always a lack of understanding/training by designers or users.
"The key, the whole key and nothing but the key. So help me Codd".
Rather like excel, it's apparent ease of use leads to shoddy work by those who shouldn't, it's not the tools per se.
Building computer systems used to be done in a similar way to building other engineering products. For some time it's been done without rigour, planning, testing etc. What has happened is depressing but entirely predictable.
		
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xls or xlsx is now a million dollar question.     In the world of tech, Excel will continued to be used.. I use it everyday.  Its still probably the simplest way to take disparate csv's into a single system.    As you mentioned, this is more about shoddy work and poor oversight rather than what excel can or cant do


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## HampshireHog (Oct 6, 2020)

Excel is such a dangerous tool, easy to use, easy to misuse, and impossible to control.  I work in Business Intelligence use Excel a fair amount for presenting data and report writing but once there is a significant volume of data or any type of governance required you have to be using a proper BI Analytics tool.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

The Developers made a mistake and will put it right, end of debate. Its getting very tiring reading about how people would have done things differently and how better they are than the developers. It's like 'Historical Standing Position' over again.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 6, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry to hear that. What do you do? If the other company are going to struggle is there any chance of some temp work with them. Seems daft to lose valuable knowledge and watch people struggle
		
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These days it's Sales Admin - used to manage Sales and Logistics before golf took over! The office is set to close on the 31st December so not sure if they'll try to keep some staff after that to continue with the "transition". The new office is in Sheffield. Our transport planner is staying as he can work from home most of the week - he's beginning to realise if he's the only one left standing from the team he's going to have a lot of questions coming his way!

The job requires a lot of product knowledge and also we have a flipping complex set of pricing and order parameters that basically need to be learnt as not automated by the system. I think the company (or at least our "owners") have underestimated what is required and have recruited heavily to cover the workload...not sure how much they'll save except for building costs!


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## Old Skier (Oct 6, 2020)

Ones thing for sure, whichever government was in control the same problem would have occurred because some “expert” would have advised that they were capable of doing the job with the tools they had.

The public sector is renowned for paying peanuts for things like IT staff.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			If the discussion bores you don’t read it. Certainly don’t comment just to derail it.

Would be a very dull place if we all had the same interests.
		
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Just waiting for that old chestnut. 
You have to read it to find out it bores you 🙄


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## GreiginFife (Oct 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Rolls Royce once decided to make the turbine blades for its RB2-11 gas turbine engine out of carbon fibre due to it being light and strong in torsion.  They later found when putting it in service the carbon fibre broke down in heavy rain.  It just about bankrupted the company.
Has anyone never made a mistake?
		
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Yeah but when did they discover that mistake? Before lives were put at risk? 
If it was then yeah, it was costly but didn't put anyone in harms way. 

This... not so much.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*The Developers made a mistake and will put it right, end of debate.* Its getting very tiring reading about how people would have done things differently and how better they are than the developers. It's like 'Historical Standing Position' over again.
		
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Though I suspect that in your business life that that is simply not what you'd expect or demand from your senior management if there was a serious and high profile error.   You just wouldn't say - never mind lads - just get on with things - and try not and do it again.  Because - for example - as in this instance it will not just have been the Developers...

No - you would demand a 'drain covers up' root cause analysis with senior managers reporting to you directly on what had happened, and on whether anything similar might have happened previously but that hasn't come to light; you'd expect them to take responsibility for ensuring that an improvement plan was put in place to ensure that such a mistake was not made again.  And you'd ensure that one or more senior managers would be responsible for overseeing delivery of that improvement plan - with regular reporting direct to you.

Well - if you wouldn't do any of that then I sure as heck would (as, having been in the middle of a significant IT security breach storm around a major government system made public in the Sunday Mail - I know what happens)


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The Developers made a mistake and will put it right, end of debate. Its getting very tiring reading about how people would have done things differently and how better they are than the developers. It's like 'Historical Standing Position' over again.
		
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What’s the historical standing position?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Yeah but most people manage to spot if it's that boring old topic again quite quickly and can ignore it. Others just like to moan.
		
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Pointing out the futility is not moaning.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			What’s the historical standing position? 

Click to expand...

It was a marathon thread by Hogan discussing where your playing partners should stand on the tee box 😀


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## hovis (Oct 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It was a marathon thread by Hogan discussing where your playing partners should stand on the tee box 😀
		
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😂😂😂😂 I remember that one


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Yeah but when did they discover that mistake? Before lives were put at risk? 
If it was then yeah, it was costly but didn't put anyone in harms way. 

This... not so much.
		
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It's just an example of how some of the most expert organisations can make mistakes with design.  In this case thankfully it was discovered just prior to going into service.


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## Old Skier (Oct 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It was a marathon thread by Hogan discussing where your playing partners should stand on the tee box 😀
		
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God was there ever a final solution


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I suspect that in your business life that that is simply not what you'd expect or demand from your senior management if there was a serious and high profile error.   You just wouldn't say - never mind lads - just get on with things - and try not and do it again.  Because - for example - as in this instance it will not just have been the Developers...

No - you would demand a 'drain covers up' root cause analysis with senior managers reporting to you directly on what had happened, and on whether anything similar might have happened previously but that hasn't come to light; you'd expect them to take responsibility for ensuring that an improvement plan was put in place to ensure that such a mistake was not made again.  And you'd ensure that one or more senior managers would be responsible for overseeing delivery of that improvement plan - with regular reporting direct to you.

Well - if you wouldn't do any of that then I sure as heck would (as, having been in the middle of a significant IT security breach storm around a major government system made public in the Sunday Mail - I know what happens)
		
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What happens inside the organisation is not the point I'm making, heads may well get banged together,  some heads may even roll but as I said the issue will get sorted. I didn't suggest that the matter should not be dealt with properly, did I?
What I said was that it will get sorted and people have made their point but continueing to harp on about it infenitem is pointless.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			God was there ever a final solution
		
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I think most people eventually lost the will to live.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's just an example of how some of the most expert organisations can make mistakes with design.  In this case thankfully it was discovered just prior to going into service.
		
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Yeah but this error has been made in the midst of a pandemic potentially putting thousands of lives at risk. So whilst you might feel comfortable with the "ach, we'll be right next time" approach, many people are not ok with that. Using Excel is not a great solution in much less critical solutions, but to use XLS format in ANY critical data schema is not even amateur. A format that hasn't been standard for at least 5 years.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Yeah but this error has been made in the midst of a pandemic potentially putting thousands of lives at risk. So whilst you might feel comfortable with the "ach, we'll be right next time" approach, many people are not ok with that. Using Excel is not a great solution in much less critical solutions, but to use XLS format in ANY critical data schema is not even amateur. A format that hasn't been standard for at least 5 years.
		
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What makes you think my view is  "ach, we'll be right next time"  I didn't say that. I said the mistake has happened and mistakes do happen, they always will and especially when development is carried out in times of stress and with short timescales.   Of course it's not good and we would like products to be fault free, especially when dealing with a track and trace system like this but crap happens and all we can do is move on and learn from it.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What makes you think my view is  "ach, we'll be right next time"  I didn't say that. I said the mistake has happened and mistakes do happen, they always will and especially when development is carried out in times of stress and with short timescales.   Of course it's not good and we would like products to be fault free, especially when dealing with a track and trace system like this but crap happens and all we can do is move on and learn from it.
		
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Your general blase attitude to what is potentially a deadly error, not figuratively, literally, gave that impression. 
No, I don't believe all we can do is move on and learn. Someone, or a group of people, needs to do a full review of this and accountability needs to be meted out. This is not a problem with a banking app meaning folk can't get a tenner from a bank, this is life and death, again literally. 

Clearly, as you prove on so many threads, your view and opinion is so entrenched that no one, certainly not me, will change that view but many people want this dealt with accordingly and not just "we learn and move on". We learn, we prevent and we take necessary action.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Your general blase attitude to what is potentially a deadly error, not figuratively, literally, gave that impression. 
No, I don't believe all we can do is move on and learn. Someone, or a group of people, needs to do a full review of this and accountability needs to be meted out. This is not a problem with a banking app meaning folk can't get a tenner from a bank, this is life and death, again literally. 

Clearly, as you prove on so many threads, your view and opinion is so entrenched that no one, certainly not me, will change that view but many people want this dealt with accordingly and not just "we learn and move on". We learn, we prevent and we take necessary action.
		
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You continue to take my comments out of context and follow that up by accusing me of an entrenched attitude. I was making the point that mistakes happen in system design and always will, to expect them not to is unreasonable in my opinion.

In saying we should learn and move on I'm not suggesting we simply drop the matter and forget the errors made. To learn is to understand what has happened, why it's happened and to improve systems to help prevent them happening again, OK I may not have said that but it wasn't the point I was making, my point was that in the very best of organisations mistakes happen some times, not intentionally but for a number of reasons.

I don't really disagree with what you are suggesting regarding how to the issue should be dealt with in the organisation.


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## DRW (Oct 7, 2020)

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1313175861902753793/photo/1

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/10/02/science.abf0521

Seems after months of almost ignoring it, the aerosol route of infection, is starting to be recognised by official bodies. Which means people don't need to cough and pebble dash you with virus that you can feel in their spit. Indoor is much higher risk and non n95/99 masks aren't going to do a lot to filter out tiny particles in aerosol and help reduce aerosol transmission, as the particles are so small they just pass though/around the cloth fibres/mask into the air and social distancing isn't going to be great either in the indoor non vented environment.

Cant think why meeting up with people inside is spreading the virus. But then all the antidote evidence in the main indicates this and the early studies.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 7, 2020)

DRW said:



https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1313175861902753793/photo/1

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/10/02/science.abf0521

Seems after months of almost ignoring it, the aerosol route of infection, is starting to be recognised by official bodies. Which means people don't need to cough and pebble dash you with virus that you can feel in their spit. Indoor is much higher risk and non n95/99 masks aren't going to do a lot to filter out tiny particles in aerosol and help reduce aerosol transmission, as the particles are so small they just pass though/around the cloth fibres/mask into the air and social distancing isn't going to be great either in the indoor non vented environment.

Cant think why meeting up with people inside is spreading the virus. But then all the antidote evidence in the main indicates this and the early studies.
		
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I have been of the view that breathing in someone else's breath is how this virus does spread. I haven't understood that you have to be "in the line of Fire" of a cough etc as being the main way it is spread. It is certainly the most likely way on a best chance basis.
But from the offset, breathing in "contaminated air" is how it happens.
Which is why re circulated air on planes is an extremely good way to get the virus. Why cinemas, and sitting close etc. was banned.
I don't think it has been ignored for months, but I think it has been the economy pressures that have led to "letting things slide, "re close contact.
Hence pubs and restaurants re opening, dentists etc restarting.
Anyone who sits with others in an enclosed space has a good chance of getting the virus if some in that space are Covid positive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			God was there ever a final solution
		
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The HNSP discussion actually started about historical etiquette and how aspects of it may or may not apply today.

The specific example I raised was around the etiquette in respect of where you stand when another player is teeing off.  I myself have no hesitation or embarrassments in asking someone to move if I do not like ie distract me, where someone is standing when I am about to tee off, but some golfers find that difficult to do - especially if they do not really know or know well the player.

The point of the HNSP discussion was that I was suggesting things are much easier all round if, where possible, we stand in a place that it has been found through time that most find acceptable - and that place was referred to as the HNSP (Historical Natural Standing Position).

Just bringing everyone up to speed 😘


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 7, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			What’s the historical standing position? 

Click to expand...

Same as it has ever been, not to endanger people or put lives at risk.

BTW ....Show a bit of respect to the originator of the term and at least get the name right.
HNSSP you missed out the Safe.

Just thought how that now applies to Covid and all the numpties not standing in a safe position.


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## Ethan (Oct 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I have been of the view that breathing in someone else's breath is how this virus does spread. I haven't understood that you have to be "in the line of Fire" of a cough etc as being the main way it is spread. It is certainly the most likely way on a best chance basis.
But from the offset, breathing in "contaminated air" is how it happens.
Which is why re circulated air on planes is an extremely good way to get the virus. Why cinemas, and sitting close etc. was banned.
I don't think it has been ignored for months, but I think it has been the economy pressures that have led to "letting things slide, "re close contact.
Hence pubs and restaurants re opening, dentists etc restarting.
Anyone who sits with others in an enclosed space has a good chance of getting the virus if some in that space are Covid positive.
		
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It has been obvious for some time that prolonged close contact in enclosed (and especially poorly ventilated) spaces is where transmission takes place. it could have been inferred that aerosol transmission was therefore involved. Eat Out To Spread it About may not have been such a good idea. 

The flip side is that outdoors stuff should be encouraged as it is in a much lower risk category.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It has been obvious for some time that prolonged close contact in enclosed (and especially poorly ventilated) spaces is where transmission takes place. it could have been inferred that aerosol transmission was therefore involved. Eat Out To Spread it About may not have been such a good idea.

The flip side is that outdoors stuff should be encouraged as it is in a much lower risk category.
		
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...and of course looking back to when we were in lockdown - I am thinkin that it didn't actually matter _that _much whether we wore a mask or not as our opportunity for contact with anyone outside of our household was extremely limited.  Wearing a mask *at that time *would possibly have been judged as only being likely to introduce a marginal reduction in risk of transmission - whilst making a lot harder for all to accept all the changes in behaviour and associated restrictions that were absolutely *essential*.

I am guessing that there may have been some thinking of that sort around why mask-wearing was not stressed or mandated from the outset.  But as we have become more accustomed to the measures we are living under and following - and as transmission rate came down and opportunities for contact with other households increased - the reduction in risk of transmission between households afforded by mask wearing has become relatively significant.


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## Ethan (Oct 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and of course looking back to when we were in lockdown - it didn't actually matter _that _much whether we wore a mask or not as our opportunity for contact with anyone outside of our household was extremely limited.  Wearing a mask *at that time *would possibly have been judged as most likely only likely to introduce a very marginal reduction in risk of transmission - whilst making the changes in behaviour and associated restrictions that were essential a lot harder for all to accept. 

I am guessing that there may have been some thinking of that sort around why mask-wearing was not stressed or mandated from the outset.  But as we have become more accustomed to the measures we are living under and following - and as transmission rate came down and opportunities for contact with other households increased - the reduction in risk of transmission between households afforded by mask wearing has become significant.
		
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I agree that mask wearing is very important, and the downside of it, apart from imaginary libertarian nonsense, is negligible, so whats the harm?. There is also a suggestion that immunity may be asserted by mask wearing which may reduce exposure below clinical infectivity, but still enough to stimulate immune responses.


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## DRW (Oct 7, 2020)

https://www.ktipp.ch/artikel/artikeldetail/ansteckungsquote-meist-ruecklaeufig-mit-oder-ohne-maske/

Ignoring science backed studies and aerosol transmission.

Lots of antidote evidence over the effectiveness of masks coming though now.

Data charts of countries that have and have not and when they and when they haven't had mask, are interesting to look at.

I'm clearly just chewing the fat/rambling as such, as not interest in emotive responses to the matter. I like science, data, charts and lists.

Ethan, I have read what you posted a number of times over masks, do you have any science based studies that lend strength to your comment over reduced exposure/immune response or just a gut feeling for some people ?


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## Ethan (Oct 7, 2020)

DRW said:



https://www.ktipp.ch/artikel/artikeldetail/ansteckungsquote-meist-ruecklaeufig-mit-oder-ohne-maske/

Ignoring science backed studies and aerosol transmission.

Lots of antidote evidence over the effectiveness of masks coming though now.

Data charts of countries that have and have not and when they and when they haven't had mask, are interesting to look at.

I'm clearly just chewing the fat/rambling as such, as not interest in emotive responses to the matter. I like science, data, charts and lists.

Ethan, I have read what you posted a number of times over masks, do you have any science based studies that lend strength to your comment over reduced exposure/immune response or just a gut feeling for some people ?
		
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Variolation was the original rudimentary form of inoculation, and it is possible that controlling exposure to Covid, using masks, could have a similar effect. This is theoretical and has not been formally tested, but there is some observational evidence that suggests it has merit. A recent piece in the New England Journal of Medicine, a highly reputable medical journal, discussed it: NEJM


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## DRW (Oct 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Variolation was the original rudimentary form of inoculation, and it is possible that controlling exposure to Covid, using masks, could have a similar effect. This is theoretical and has not be formally tested, but there is some observational evidence that suggests it has merit. A recent piece in the New England Journal of Medicine, a highly reputable medical journal, discussed it: NEJM

Click to expand...

I wondered if you/people were kind of referring to the viral loading aspect.

Thanks for the article, will have a proper read later and look for the details of the interesting cases mentioned. Remember reading about it when I read about vaccine history at one stage and thought WTF, roll that dice, what a way of vaccinated and then forgot about it, doh

Thank again, will help to pass the night later, cheers


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 7, 2020)

There have been lots of negative stories around testing so I thought I'd share a more positive one. Colch Jnr II woke up this morning with a cough. Quick call to the school and they said to keep him at home. Colch Jnr I's school also said not to send him in. Went on to the .gov.uk testing site and booked a test at a drive through testing centre 20 miles from home two hours later. Mrs Colch drove him down, straight into the testing centre and test carried out straight away. All very straight forward and organised. Now just got to keep them at home until the results come back, either tomorrow or Friday. Unfortunately for Mrs Colch, I'm offshore so she's got to deal with it on her own.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Same as it has ever been, not to endanger people or put lives at risk.

BTW ....Show a bit of respect to the originator of the term and at least get the name right.
HNSSP you missed out the Safe.

Just thought how that now applies to Covid and all the numpties not standing in a safe position.

Click to expand...

It's HNSP 🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 7, 2020)

A major hospital trust that I work on has triggered business continuity measures and a change freeze as one or more hospitals in the trust are at capacity and they cannot risk any work we do taking any critical service down...looking at Covid in the trust's area I can only draw the conclusion that Covid in one way or another is the root cause.  Not good and worrying.


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## ger147 (Oct 7, 2020)

All pubs and restaurants in the central belt of Scotland to close for 2 and a half weeks from this Friday.

Also being asked not to travel too far although not explicitly banned.

Lots of sport type stuff also stopped. At least I can still get out for a hit at the golf for the moment.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I agree that mask wearing is very important, and the downside of it, apart from imaginary libertarian nonsense, is negligible, so whats the harm?. There is also a suggestion that immunity may be asserted by mask wearing which may reduce exposure below clinical infectivity, but still enough to stimulate immune responses.
		
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Yes, of course, makes sense. Your last sentence is interesting, I haven't seen that suggestion before. I didn't know that "may reduce exposure below clinical infectivity, but still enough to stimulate immune responses." was possible?
A sort of self vaccination 😀
Concerning the aerosol spreading of the virus, what is your view of the risk re routine eye examination ( every 9-12 months). Can't think of how this or dentistry can be done without breathing others air. Particularly opticians, the rooms are relatively small etc.
Postponement to me seems wise?


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## Imurg (Oct 7, 2020)

DRW said:



https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1313175861902753793/photo/1

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/10/02/science.abf0521

Seems after months of almost ignoring it, the aerosol route of infection, is starting to be recognised by official bodies. Which means people don't need to cough and pebble dash you with virus that you can feel in their spit. Indoor is much higher risk and non n95/99 masks aren't going to do a lot to filter out tiny particles in aerosol and help reduce aerosol transmission, as the particles are so small they just pass though/around the cloth fibres/mask into the air and social distancing isn't going to be great either in the indoor non vented environment.

Cant think why meeting up with people inside is spreading the virus. But then all the antidote evidence in the main indicates this and the early studies.
		
Click to expand...

Mmm...worrying 
Does this suggest I can't give driving lessons if I can't have windows open..ie when it's raining/ very cold...?


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## DRW (Oct 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Mmm...worrying
Does this suggest I can't give driving lessons if I can't have windows open..ie when it's raining/ very cold...?
		
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Me personally, you have got to assess risk.

First, whats the chance of one of your students or you having virus, that is fairly low, say plucking fingers in the air 1 in say 250-400 chance (and you probably only have a few students in number, even though they are probably young, so perhaps more likely to have the virus).

Then if you have the window open to a degree on rainy/cold days, on both sides of the car (or front/back) with the heater fan going with masks on, then again you are lowering your risks again, even if one of the students or you have the virus.

Would I personally worry overly, probably not tbh but nothing is risk free..and if you are really adverse to risk or in a high risk category, then consider a mask like N99/95 for yourself on those kind of days(not cheap but buys extra protection). Or be brave and go full on Hazardous suit with separate air supply, sure the students will love it

Nothing has changed in the real world, just that it is being recognised now by places like CDC and even our own governments departments, whereas before they were all saying almost no chance or very low chance of transmission.


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## Imurg (Oct 7, 2020)

DRW said:



			Me personally, you have got to assess risk.

First, whats the chance of one of your students or you having virus, that is fairly low, say plucking fingers in the air 1 in say 250-400 chance (and you probably only have a few students in number, even though they are probably young, so perhaps more likely to have the virus).

Then if you have the window open to a degree on rainy/cold days, on both sides of the car (or front/back) with the heater fan going with masks on, then again you are lowering your risks again, even if one of the students or you have the virus.

Would I personally worry overly, probably not tbh but nothing is risk free..and if you are really adverse to risk or in a high risk category, then consider a mask like N99/95 for yourself on those kind of days(not cheap but buys extra protection). Or be brave and go full on Hazardous suit with separate air supply, sure the students will love it

Nothing has changed in the real world, just that it is being recognised now by places like CDC and even our own governments departments, whereas before they were all saying almost no chance or very low chance of transmission.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair it's not going to change what happens...if its raining then the choice is Covid or drowning and frostbite.....
Can't wait if it's raining on my next trip to the test centre...doors are locked, we stand outside...it'll be full winter golf raingear and mitts


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## Ethan (Oct 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, of course, makes sense. Your last sentence is interesting, I haven't seen that suggestion before. I didn't know that "may reduce exposure below clinical infectivity, but still enough to stimulate immune responses." was possible?
A sort of self vaccination 😀
Concerning the aerosol spreading of the virus, what is your view of the risk re routine eye examination ( every 9-12 months). Can't think of how this or dentistry can be done without breathing others air. Particularly opticians, the rooms are relatively small etc.
Postponement to me seems wise?
		
Click to expand...

Scroll up to 9665, there is a link to a paper about variolation. 

Dentistry is certainly a risky business, so I think the dentist are taking major precautions, checking temps, asking about symptoms and wearing proper face masks. An eye examination is also pretty close, although you could keep a mask on for it. I think in both cases they are more at risk from you than the converse.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Scroll up to 9665, there is a link to a paper about variolation.

Dentistry is certainly a risky business, so I think the dentist are taking major precautions, checking temps, asking about symptoms and wearing proper face masks. An eye examination is also pretty close, although you could keep a mask on for it. I think in both cases they are more at risk from you than the converse.
		
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 Thanks for that.
Perhaps they are more at risk than me, because they are seeing more than just me. I did read that the air of others can hang around for some while, even "hours" was mentioned!  So  ,notwithstanding the positives of reassurance 😀,  that doesn't seem minor risk to one of their patients who is in their late seventies.


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## Whereditgo (Oct 8, 2020)

I noticed an alert on my phone last night that I had never seen before, when I opened it it said something along the lines of "You have been in contact with someone who has reported a positive Covid test result, you will receive further instructions" I can't recall the exact wording, it was late and once I left the alert to check the Track & Trace ap it disappeared of course. Nothing on the Track & Trace ap showing any alerts, nor any information as to how any notification is passed on to users of the ap.

No idea whether or not this is something I should be concerned about or acting upon?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 8, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			I noticed an alert on my phone last night that I had never seen before, when I opened it it said something along the lines of "You have been in contact with someone who has reported a positive Covid test result, you will receive further instructions" I can't recall the exact wording, it was late and once I left the alert to check the Track & Trace ap it disappeared of course. Nothing on the Track & Trace ap showing any alerts, nor any information as to how any notification is passed on to users of the ap.

No idea whether or not this is something I should be concerned about or acting upon?
		
Click to expand...

I've had one, I know others have as well. It is a glitch apparently, just ignore it. If you genuinely have been in contact with someone you will be contacted and the notice will not disappear.


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## robinthehood (Oct 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've had one, I know others have as well. It is a glitch apparently, just ignore it. If you genuinely have been in contact with someone you will be contacted and the notice will not disappear.
		
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Same here,  some kind of test message apparently.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 8, 2020)

The disappearing notice was picked up by the BBC. Info on the link

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54389083


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## KenL (Oct 8, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			I noticed an alert on my phone last night that I had never seen before, when I opened it it said something along the lines of "You have been in contact with someone who has reported a positive Covid test result, you will receive further instructions" I can't recall the exact wording, it was late and once I left the alert to check the Track & Trace ap it disappeared of course. Nothing on the Track & Trace ap showing any alerts, nor any information as to how any notification is passed on to users of the ap.

No idea whether or not this is something I should be concerned about or acting upon?
		
Click to expand...

A possible scam?


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## patricks148 (Oct 8, 2020)

went out for a Pizza Express last night, for which looks like the last time in a while, no alcohol to be served indoors from Friday, one of the main pleasures of a meal out is a glass of wine to go with it


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## Whereditgo (Oct 8, 2020)

KenL said:



			A possible scam?
		
Click to expand...

It appears not as per the link in LT's post.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 8, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There have been lots of negative stories around testing so I thought I'd share a more positive one. Colch Jnr II woke up this morning with a cough. Quick call to the school and they said to keep him at home. Colch Jnr I's school also said not to send him in. Went on to the .gov.uk testing site and booked a test at a drive through testing centre 20 miles from home two hours later. Mrs Colch drove him down, straight into the testing centre and test carried out straight away. All very straight forward and organised. Now just got to keep them at home until the results come back, either tomorrow or Friday. Unfortunately for Mrs Colch, I'm offshore so she's got to deal with it on her own.
		
Click to expand...

Good news. Negative result came back this morning - too late for them to return to school today but still within 24 hours. Very impressed with how it's working in our area at least.


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## Old Skier (Oct 8, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			went out for a Pizza Express last night, for which looks like the last time in a while, no alcohol to be served indoors from Friday, one of the main pleasures of a meal out is a glass of wine to go with it
		
Click to expand...

Ours is one of those that has gone. Used to enjoy going after a visit to the cinema


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## patricks148 (Oct 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Ours is one of those that has gone. Used to enjoy going after a visit to the cinema
		
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the one in Inverness open just re opened, shut straight after lock down was lifted and a couple of the staff tested pos, only been open 2 weeks in total since March. Though it is very popular with families with children so maybe thats teir only hope now


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 8, 2020)

How some newspapers work part 94.

Local regional lockdowns being planned.  Newspaper finds where boundaries are and sends reporter/photographer off to said line to interview two people on either side of the line.   Then quotes Sharon who thinks it is bitterly unfair that she cannot go to bingo/the nail salon/nightclub/pub/have a ton of friends round for a piss-up whilst Tracey in the next road can.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			How some newspapers work part 94.

Local regional lockdowns being planned.  Newspaper finds where boundaries are and sends reporter/photographer off to said line to interview two people on either side of the line.   Then quotes Sharon who thinks it is bitterly unfair that she cannot go to bingo/the nail salon/nightclub/pub/have a ton of friends round for a piss-up whilst Tracey in the next road can.
		
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I am travelling 40 miles down to Stranraer this afternoon so I can have a pint of mild.
Just the one mind you as I don't want to be breathalised on the way home.
That will teach them, can't fool me.
Mind you I'm not too keen on mild.


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## robinthehood (Oct 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, of course, makes sense. Your last sentence is interesting, I haven't seen that suggestion before. I didn't know that "may reduce exposure below clinical infectivity, but still enough to stimulate immune responses." was possible?
A sort of self vaccination 😀
Concerning the aerosol spreading of the virus, what is your view of the risk re routine eye examination ( every 9-12 months). Can't think of how this or dentistry can be done without breathing others air. Particularly opticians, the rooms are relatively small etc.
Postponement to me seems wise?
		
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I had an eye test today, lots of pulling mask off the nose due to glasses steaming up.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 8, 2020)

Junior Shark has been at Nottingham Trent uni for two weeks and has just tested positive.   I've not been up there but my ex has so she is getting a test now.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 8, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Junior Shark has been at Nottingham Trent uni for two weeks and has just tested positive.   I've not been up there but my ex has so she is getting a test now.
		
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Mate at the club has a daughter up there and she's tested positive. She is looking to move to a university down here where infection rates are much better.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 8, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I had an eye test today, lots of pulling mask off the nose due to glasses steaming up.
		
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And where was the optician/tester while this was happening?  Was he sat close to you, etc?.


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## Billysboots (Oct 8, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Junior Shark has been at Nottingham Trent uni for two weeks and has just tested positive.   I've not been up there but my ex has so she is getting a test now.
		
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My lad’s girlfriend is in her 2nd year at Sheffield Hallam, living in rented accommodation with 5 friends. All of them have tested positive in the last week. No great surprise as she openly admits to it having been one house party after another since she got back last month.

Her generation just don’t grasp it, I’m afraid.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			My lad’s girlfriend is in her 2nd year at Sheffield Hallam, living in rented accommodation with 5 friends. All of them have tested positive in the last week. No great surprise as she openly admits to it having been one house party after another since she got back last month.

Her generation just don’t grasp it, I’m afraid.
		
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When those in power use expressions like

"A stitch in time saves 9" it's no wonder they don't appeal to that generation


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 8, 2020)

Several positive tests this week in one of the shift teams at my place of work which has spread into another team on the same shift.

Couple of hours sleep this morning after nights then off for a test. Fortunate to have an on site testing facility with a quick turn round so pleased that our whole team are negative. 

There have been positve tests site wide but its looks like our building is the worst affected so not sure where we go from here.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Mate at the club has a daughter up there and she's tested positive. She is looking to move to a university down here where infection rates are much better.
		
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Why move? Half the university will have immunity by the end of the month, his daughter has already had it. What if she jumps ship and her next place suddenly sees numbers ramp up? 

 If she liked Nottingham enough to go there in the first place then stick it out.


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## garyinderry (Oct 8, 2020)

Mates brother had no symptoms till he sat down to eat a Bombay bad boy pot noodle.  Took a bite and couldn't taste anything.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			My lad’s girlfriend is in her 2nd year at Sheffield Hallam, living in rented accommodation with 5 friends. All of them have tested positive in the last week. No great surprise as she openly admits to it having been one house party after another since she got back last month.

Her generation just don’t grasp it, I’m afraid.
		
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At Northumbria last week 770 tested positive. 700 didn't realise, the other 70 as I understand, are okay. If you are a student and hearing 90% of your equivalents don't even know they have it then you aren't going to be worrying too much. I'm not saying I agree but I can see where they are coming from.


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## Billysboots (Oct 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At Northumbria last week 770 tested positive. 700 didn't realise, the other 70 as I understand, are okay. If you are a student and hearing 90% of your equivalents don't even know they have it then you aren't going to be worrying too much. I'm not saying I agree but I can see where they are coming from.
		
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I suspect my 20-something self would have probably been the same, so it’s difficult to really lose my temper with them. 

I just wish they’d recognise that, whilst they will hopefully come through totally unscathed, the impact their behaviour has on the wider community may be a whole lot more serious, both in terms of lockdowns and serious illness to others.


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## Billysboots (Oct 8, 2020)

It’s really interesting to see Spain’s infections levelling off despite them not seeming to take the draconian steps being talked about here. 

I’d be interested to hear what Hobbit has to say about events there.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I suspect my 20-something self would have probably been the same, so it’s difficult to really lose my temper with them.

I just wish they’d recognise that, whilst they will hopefully come through totally unscathed, the impact their behaviour has on the wider community may be a whole lot more serious, both in terms of lockdowns and serious illness to others.
		
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The ones isolating in halls, they are the ones catching it rather than those in houses, are kept away from everyone else so oddly enough you are going to have thousands of students shortly who will be able to mingle as safe as you like. The universities are being pretty strict with their isolation so the wider public should be okay. Had they not been.............The testing has been well done in halls and campuses so that is helping to keep the infections internal.

It would be interesting to know details but my money would be on 90% of infections being first years in halls. The ones living in the community in houses will not be mixing and spreading in the same way. I don't have facts to back that up but it is how I see it.


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## Hobbit (Oct 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			It’s really interesting to see Spain’s infections levelling off despite them not seeming to take the draconian steps being talked about here.

I’d be interested to hear what Hobbit has to say about events there.
		
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What you see in the cities and large towns in the UK is what we see in Madrid, Barcelona and numerous other cities and large towns. 'Our' draconian measures include roadblocks on towns, suburbs of cities and some regions. Leicester-style lockdowns are happening, and those towns have roadblocks - out here they have the man power. Try to leave = fined. Avoid the roadblock but arrive at a second residence and if a local grasses you up, which they are doing = self-isolation and a fine. 

On a more local level we're seeing the odd hotspot flare up. Once identified, the family is quarantined at home. The police visit every day, along with the town's version of social services, who deliver food etc. Masks are mandatory outside your front door. Don't wear one = €100 fine. Caught a second time = €300 fine. Argue the fine with the policeman issuing it = €3000 fine. You pay the fine or else!

Got an email about an hour ago. A member of one of the local bowling clubs has tested positive. Its about 10km from our club. 'We' mix with their members socially, bump into them in town and occasionally we'll visit them for their club comps and them us - we had 2 from there today. We have a comprehensive, old-fashioned, paper track and trace. We're waiting on notification on whether we close for 14 days and self-isolate. If we have to self-isolate we'll get the police visits etc.


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## Billysboots (Oct 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What you see in the cities and large towns in the UK is what we see in Madrid, Barcelona and numerous other cities and large towns. 'Our' draconian measures include roadblocks on towns, suburbs of cities and some regions. Leicester-style lockdowns are happening, and those towns have roadblocks - out here they have the man power. Try to leave = fined. Avoid the roadblock but arrive at a second residence and if a local grasses you up, which they are doing = self-isolation and a fine.

On a more local level we're seeing the odd hotspot flare up. Once identified, the family is quarantined at home. The police visit every day, along with the town's version of social services, who deliver food etc. Masks are mandatory outside your front door. Don't wear one = €100 fine. Caught a second time = €300 fine. Argue the fine with the policeman issuing it = €3000 fine. You pay the fine or else!

Got an email about an hour ago. A member of one of the local bowling clubs has tested positive. Its about 10km from our club. 'We' mix with their members socially, bump into them in town and occasionally we'll visit them for their club comps and them us - we had 2 from there today. We have a comprehensive, old-fashioned, paper track and trace. We're waiting on notification on whether we close for 14 days and self-isolate. If we have to self-isolate we'll get the police visits etc.
		
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Always good to hear a first hand account because, if certain elements of the British press are to be believed, in Spain it’s pretty much “as you were” with few restrictions. Clearly that’s not quite the case, and is doubtless yet another example of our press arguing against the U.K. authorities putting any measures in place at all - a case of Spain can squash this without restrictions, why can’t we?

What you’re experiencing sounds eminently sensible and proportionate to the recent spike. I would love to see the reaction here if we were asked to concede to what the Spanish have in place 🙄


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## Hobbit (Oct 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Always good to hear a first hand account because, if certain elements of the British press are to be believed, in Spain it’s pretty much “as you were” with few restrictions. Clearly that’s not quite the case, and is doubtless yet another example of our press arguing against the U.K. authorities putting any measures in place at all - a case of Spain can squash this without restrictions, why can’t we?

What you’re experiencing sounds eminently sensible and proportionate to the recent spike. I would love to see the reaction here if we were asked to concede to what the Spanish have in place 🙄
		
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There's other restrictions too. Travel on public transport; every other seat is taped off. Only 2 passengers in a taxi, both in the back and masked. 10 round a table in a bar but must have 1.5m social distance. Inside bars and restaurants; 65% capacity. Get up from a table in a bar, and you must wear a mask. If the police pass a bar and see someone without a mask, the person is fined and the bar owner gets a big fine and, potentially, a 2 week closure order.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			My lad’s girlfriend is in her 2nd year at Sheffield Hallam, living in rented accommodation with 5 friends. All of them have tested positive in the last week. No great surprise as she openly admits to it having been one house party after another since she got back last month.

*Her generation just don’t grasp it, I’m afraid.*

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Is there not an argument to say they do grasp that the risk to their physical health is very low but the risk to their mental health is possibly higher if they just sit in their student halls all the time? And also you could argue that they may feel there are plenty of things our generation just don't get as well where they will have to pick up the consequences later on. Not saying that equals things up, but it would be interesting to examine when so many feel how they do. As I think just saying 'they do not get it' is missing a lot of underlying reasons as this kind of thing does not happen in a societal vacuum.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The ones isolating in halls, they are the ones catching it rather than those in houses, are kept away from everyone else so oddly enough you are going to have thousands of students shortly who will be able to mingle as safe as you like. The universities are being pretty strict with their isolation so the wider public should be okay. Had they not been.............The testing has been well done in halls and campuses so that is helping to keep the infections internal.

It would be interesting to know details but my money would be on 90% of infections being first years in halls. The ones living in the community in houses will not be mixing and spreading in the same way. I don't have facts to back that up but it is how I see it.
		
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Looking at the maps of where it is the highest in Nottingham it is in the areas where there is a lot of student housing, not just the halls of residence.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking at the maps of where it is the highest in Nottingham it is in the areas where there is a lot of student housing, not just the halls of residence.
		
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That's interesting. The numbers up here are halls driven. My daughters friends around the north who have it or are isolating are halls based as well. I understand why it rips through halls but for it to go through housing surprises me. That equals a lot of households and individuals ignoring advice on quite a major scale. 

The hows and why's of all this, how it affects certain areas more than others, are interesting to see and work out. At the moment for example the campus universities are not spiking, it is the city sites. That may change of course but the difference is there right now.


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2020)

I'm suprised how many think its all some kind of hoax or massive international conspiracy.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 9, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I'm suprised how many think its all some kind of hoax or massive international conspiracy.
		
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Oh and bill gates (one of the nicest men on the planet) is behind it


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## pendodave (Oct 9, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That's interesting. The numbers up here are halls driven. My daughters friends around the north who have it or are isolating are halls based as well. I understand why it rips through halls but for it to go through housing surprises me. That equals a lot of households and individuals ignoring advice on quite a major scale.

The hows and why's of all this, how it affects certain areas more than others, are interesting to see and work out. At the moment for example the campus universities are not spiking, it is the city sites. That may change of course but the difference is there right now.
		
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I'm not surprised. Student housing is extremely cramped, living rooms as bedrooms etc, has very small living/cooking/washing facilities. It's prime spreading conditions. Quite similar to the living conditions of the people who work in food processing plants...
Also, no 'rule breaking' required - they're all in the same areas of the city, you're always meeting mates, having a chat etc when you go to a shop. Job done.


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## DRW (Oct 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			It’s really interesting to see Spain’s infections levelling off despite them not seeming to take the draconian steps being talked about here.

I’d be interested to hear what Hobbit has to say about events there.
		
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I read that Spain very recently has reduced the number of cycles it does for PCR from 40ish to low 30s, if true that would remove quite a number of people from testing positive. And hence the fairly quick dropping going on.

From the bit I have read about PCR cycles(I know nothing btw), the fact we are up in 40s seems a bit mad/high.


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## Jimaroid (Oct 9, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm not surprised. Student housing is extremely cramped, living rooms as bedrooms etc, has very small living/cooking/washing facilities. It's prime spreading conditions. Quite similar to the living conditions of the people who work in food processing plants...
Also, no 'rule breaking' required - they're all in the same areas of the city, you're always meeting mates, having a chat etc when you go to a shop. Job done.
		
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Let's not forget being crammed into often poorly ventilated warm, stuffy and cramped lecture theatres in large numbers to begin with. It's not just the students suffering, the staff are too.


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## DRW (Oct 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is there not an argument to say they do grasp that the risk to their physical health is very low but the risk to their mental health is possibly higher if they just sit in their student halls all the time? And also you could argue that they may feel there are plenty of things our generation just don't get as well where they will have to pick up the consequences later on. Not saying that equals things up, but it would be interesting to examine when so many feel how they do. As I think just saying 'they do not get it' is missing a lot of underlying reasons as this kind of thing does not happen in a societal vacuum.
		
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Yeah completely, health is on their side and there sometimes moments in time that you will never get back.

Some periods in life are never repeated, something like newly borns, going to university when a teenager, the age from 17-20ish , if you are still fit at 80, etc are such moments and probably not repeatable.

Generally going from 30-32, 35-37 or 50-52 or 63-65 etc with restrictions on your life, are not comparable to those other moments in life.

What is surprising, is when I go out and see the older generation, old people are getting on public transport that have cars, going into cafés, into pubs, into shops, into clubhouses, mixing in big groups, seeing loads of people over a number of days inside, not bothering social distancing etc. I can understand why they wish to continue a certain way of life tho.

Do the most venerable people grasp it, do the less affected group grasp it, of course some don't. Some do, some don't. I dislike generalisations as they are to often not true, but people love sound bites.


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## GB72 (Oct 9, 2020)

It has crossed my mind that the increase in positive cases could actually cause people to break the regulations more rather than less. Bear with me on this as it is a bit contrary. You take a person who was fully compliant during lockdown and was seeing positive results in all of the figures, a goal being achieved. What they are now seeing is that it was all for nothing (not in reality but as a mental picture). To them it seems lockdown has failed, the bits of freedom that they had earned are being taken away and a generally negative press are reinforcing that view. That creates a mindset where you start to think that you are going to get it anyway, nothing you do is going to stop the spread so you may as well just get on with life and deal with the consequences later.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 9, 2020)

DRW said:



			Yeah completely, health is on their side and there sometimes moments in time that you will never get back.

Some periods in life are never repeated, something like newly borns, going to university when a teenager, the age from 17-20ish , if you are still fit at 80, etc are such moments and probably not repeatable.

Generally going from 30-32, 35-37 or 50-52 or 63-65 etc with restrictions on your life, are not comparable to those other moments in life.

What is surprising, is when I go out and see the older generation, old people are getting on public transport that have cars, going into cafés, into pubs, into shops, into clubhouses, mixing in big groups, seeing loads of people over a number of days inside, not bothering social distancing etc. I can understand why they wish to continue a certain way of life tho.

Do the most venerable people grasp it, do the less affected group grasp it, of course some don't. Some do, some don't. I dislike generalisations as they are to often not true, but people love sound bites.
		
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Depends what stage of life people are at aswell, myself and a colleague from work both the same age.

At lockdown she had just met a guy so found it hard not seeing him as she was worried Ive litterally just started the relationship in 3 months or whatever is he going to be interested .. 

Then you look at my situation 

Happily married , kids with at the time 2 more on way 

We were more than happy to sit at home.. it's bliss to not have to go out!


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## Billysboots (Oct 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It has crossed my mind that the increase in positive cases could actually cause people to break the regulations more rather than less. Bear with me on this as it is a bit contrary. You take a person who was fully compliant during lockdown and was seeing positive results in all of the figures, a goal being achieved. What they are now seeing is that it was all for nothing (not in reality but as a mental picture). To them it seems lockdown has failed, the bits of freedom that they had earned are being taken away and a generally negative press are reinforcing that view. That creates a mindset where you start to think that you are going to get it anyway, nothing you do is going to stop the spread so you may as well just get on with life and deal with the consequences later.
		
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Not contrary at all - it’s an observation I’ve now heard several times, especially when we consider other countries who appear to have managed reasonably well, either without lockdown or after they have been eased.

I certainly think any return to a nationwide lockdown will be very hard to enforce for the very reason you cite.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 9, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Not contrary at all - it’s an observation I’ve now heard several times, especially when we consider other countries who appear to have managed reasonably well, either without lockdown or after they have been eased.

I certainly think any return to a nationwide lockdown will be very hard to enforce for the very reason you cite.
		
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I remember clearly from the first briefings that they didn't want to lock down too early as people would get bored and stop complying.. so you have to do just right..

The scientists aren't stupid they know it's impossible to control a population who don't listen at the best of times


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## Ethan (Oct 9, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I remember clearly from the first briefings that they didn't want to lock down too early as people would get bored and stop complying.. so you have to do just right..

The scientists aren't stupid they know it's impossible to control a population who don't listen at the best of times
		
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That was the view of the behavioural psychologists, not public health doctors. But they were wrong, and in delaying lockdown missed thew window within which it was possible to fundamentally change the course of the pandemic. 

There was never an expectation that everyone would comply, just that most would, and most did. City centres were empty, roads quiet, fewer kids of key workers went to school than expected, so many people worked from home that the Govt had to ask people to go back. Sure, there were politicians driving to Durham, house parties, etc, but relatively little and probably very little which changed the course of the illness.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It has crossed my mind that the increase in positive cases could actually cause people to break the regulations more rather than less. Bear with me on this as it is a bit contrary. You take a person who was fully compliant during lockdown and was seeing positive results in all of the figures, a goal being achieved. What they are now seeing is that it was all for nothing (not in reality but as a mental picture). To them it seems lockdown has failed, the bits of freedom that they had earned are being taken away and a generally negative press are reinforcing that view. That creates a mindset where you start to think that you are going to get it anyway, nothing you do is going to stop the spread so you may as well just get on with life and deal with the consequences later.
		
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My attitude has changed slightly.  I am still following all the rules with regards to face masks, I have the NHS app and use it and I have not been into a inside bar/restaurant since it all started.  I also have a teenage daughter and 2 elderly parents.  And my daughter asked if she could go into Nottingham tomorrow (the number one city in terms of covid at the moment) with her mates.  And we may then go and see my parents if they want to see us.  And I've said yes to her going in (as long as she does follow the mask and distancing guidelines) as I essentially think that the risk to her getting it is still actually pretty low and even if she does chances are it will not be serious.  I've also given my parents the choice if they want to see us after as they can decide depending on how risky they see meeting us will be.

Currently even if we go then it is not breaking the rules, although it may well be from Monday.  But I have changed my mindset a bit in that before I would have not let her go, but now I feel the mental harm it is doing to my daughter by not seeing her friends and just hanging out as we all did at her age is possibly greater than the physical harm she may come to if she gets it.  And it is up to my parents to isolate more if they want to avoid it as much as possible.


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## Slab (Oct 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That was the view of the behavioural psychologists, not public health doctors. But they were wrong, *and in delaying lockdown missed thew window within which it was possible to fundamentally change the course of the pandemic.*

There was never an expectation that everyone would comply, just that most would, and most did. City centres were empty, roads quiet, fewer kids of key workers went to school than expected, so many people worked from home that the Govt had to ask people to go back. Sure, there were politicians driving to Durham, house parties, etc, but relatively little and probably very little which changed the course of the illness.
		
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I don't think it was just the window that was missed, the lockdown itself wasn't really fit for purpose. I think its safe to say it was a pretty ‘lite’ lockdown & even at peak 5-6 million did not comply (wasn’t it published that only a 90% compliance at peak if I recall)

Unless you’re the size of Australia 5-6 million is still a lot of spreading. Not only that there was once/twice daily shopping trips, daily exercise trips, daily pet walking trips… by tens of millions more who _were _complying

Then there’s the millions of non-essential online orders for everything from DIY supplies to board games that had to be picked, packed, replenished, supervised, delivered etc causing hundreds of thousands of needless contacts every day

For millions it was nothing more than an extended ‘fair fortnight’ holiday period where lots of businesses closed but folks carried on with other activities. Hindsight tells us it didn’t have a cat in hells chance of dealing with a pandemic


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## road2ruin (Oct 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've also given my parents the choice if they want to see us after as they can decide depending on how risky they see meeting us will be.
		
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I think this is the attitude and the types of discussions that families should be having. This whole thing of 'killing your gran' is going a thing if you actually see her knowing what else you've been doing in your everyday life. Maybe gran doesn't want to live her life rattling around her home without seeing her children and grandchildren. My grandfather is 101 and has been pretty much locked up in his care home since March. They've done a pretty decent job however Covid got into the care home at the start of September and he's now a prisoner in his room, understandable as they want to protect their residents however it now means he has no contact with anyone and he's giving up, it won't be Covid that gets him, it will be his personal decision to give up on life. 

In terms of my parents we've already had the discussion as to how the feel about seeing us. Myself and wife both work from home so aren't pretty low risk however our daughter (6 years old) is at school plus has gymnastics and swimming classes so is the most likely carrier of anything. My parents have made it clear that they would far rather take the risk and see their grand daughter than not so that's just what we'll do and hope nobody gets ill.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2020)

Also a bit frustrating that where I live in Nottingham is going to be under restrictions any second now. Which will mean an end to playing badminton which helps to keep me sane and no doubt a run on bog rolls and pasta by the stupid people in the supermarket. 

The borough I am in has the 2nd highest rate in Nottingham, but when you look at a more local level, the vast majority of that is driven by one area where all the students live which is a fair way away from me.  The figures for my town council area where I actually live and shop and go to the leisure centre, 2 cases in the last week. Understand you have to lock down on a fairly generic and large area as people do move about, but frustrating nevertheless.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I think this is the attitude and the types of discussions that families should be having. This whole thing of 'killing your gran' is going a thing if you actually see her knowing what else you've been doing in your everyday life. *Maybe gran doesn't want to live her life rattling around her home without seeing her children and grandchildren.* My grandfather is 101 and has been pretty much locked up in his care home since March. They've done a pretty decent job however Covid got into the care home at the start of September and he's now a prisoner in his room, understandable as they want to protect their residents however it now means he has no contact with anyone and he's giving up, it won't be Covid that gets him, it will be his personal decision to give up on life.

In terms of my parents we've already had the discussion as to how the feel about seeing us. Myself and wife both work from home so aren't pretty low risk however our daughter (6 years old) is at school plus has gymnastics and swimming classes so is the most likely carrier of anything. My parents have made it clear that they would far rather take the risk and see their grand daughter than not so that's just what we'll do and hope nobody gets ill.
		
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Kind of my parents exact words.  They are of course wary of catching it, but also don't especially want to live a life completely isolated and not see their kids and grandchildren in the latter years. So they have said they are more than happy to decide themselves who they want to see and I will respect that. And my daughter getting messages that she may be '_killing her grandparents_' is not actually that helpful.


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## Ethan (Oct 9, 2020)

Slab said:



			I don't think it was just the window that was missed, the lockdown itself wasn't really fit for purpose. I think its safe to say it was a pretty ‘lite’ lockdown & even at peak 5-6 million did not comply (wasn’t it published that only a 90% compliance at peak if I recall)

Unless you’re the size of Australia 5-6 million is still a lot of spreading. Not only that there was once/twice daily shopping trips, daily exercise trips, daily pet walking trips… by tens of millions more who _were _complying

Then there’s the millions of non-essential online orders for everything from DIY supplies to board games that had to be picked, packed, replenished, supervised, delivered etc causing hundreds of thousands of needless contacts every day

For millions it was nothing more than an extended ‘fair fortnight’ holiday period where lots of businesses closed but folks carried on with other activities. Hindsight tells us it didn’t have a cat in hells chance of dealing with a pandemic
		
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I think it is generally accepted now that had we locked down, lite or not, a week or so earlier, there would have been a substantially smaller numbers of deaths. 

The principles of the public health response are very simple. 1. Keep the virus out. 2. Limit its movement. We could have done 1 with airport controls. 2 needs lockdown, particularly for indoors activities. 

Neither of these have to be complete, there is a spectrum where better achievement will have better results, but something is still better than nothing. If you achieve 1 and keep the virus out, then limiting the spread sort of takes care of itself because there is less virus circulating that requires containment. 

I think few people did once or twice daily shopping trips and the exercise or dog walking trips outside should not be a problem. This is a condition of prolonged close contact inside or in places of poor ventilation. Anyway, the initial peak passed so something worked. Then as we reopened, cases rose again. I think it is clear that the lockdown (or call it what you will) had a favourable effect on transmission and the reopening an unfavourable one. 

Assuming some survival of the fittest herd immunity plan is not going to happen, then the only way to control this is to lock down again.


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## chrisd (Oct 9, 2020)

As a granddad of 3, I know I'd rather not see them for a few weeks, so that i could still enjoy what I hope will be the next 15 or so years, because they haven't bought the virus to me when it's as prevalent as it has been


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## Slab (Oct 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Assuming some survival of the fittest herd immunity plan is not going to happen,* then the only way to control this is to lock down again*.
		
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I wish that were true but while a lockdown is a measure of control I just don't think that a UK lockdown is the kind of control that's needed from a practical sense
We locked down here hard and fast
They closed the borders
They imposed a curfew
They closed all businesses
They eradicated the virus 100% in 40 days
We've had no indigenous cases for more than 5 months now

We partially reopened the airport 9 days ago & we've had 18 cases arrive in that time (fortunately all arrivals go to quarantine) That's the kind of control that's needed but it is just not sustainable and not something folks in the UK will accept or comply with


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2020)

Slab said:



			I wish that were true but while a lockdown is a measure of control I just don't think that a UK lockdown is the kind of control that's needed from a practical sense
We locked down here hard and fast
They closed the borders
They imposed a curfew
They closed all businesses
They eradicated the virus 100% in 40 days
We've had no indigenous cases for more than 5 months now

We partially reopened the airport 9 days ago & we've had 18 cases arrive in that time (fortunately all arrivals go to quarantine) That's the kind of control that's needed but it is just not sustainable and not something folks in the UK will accept or comply with
		
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We did a decent job, everywhere closed,  towns cities, streets , roads deserted.  
Were you here to witness it?


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## DRW (Oct 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Kind of my parents exact words.  They are of course wary of catching it, but also don't especially want to live a life completely isolated and not see their kids and grandchildren in the latter years. So they have said they are more than happy to decide themselves who they want to see and I will respect that. And my daughter getting messages that she may be '_killing her grandparents_' is not actually that helpful.
		
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I am not judging, as it is so individual in my eyes. However one big issue I have within myself, is that I am not sure I can live with the thought, that I past on the virus, if that leads to a death, with say my mum or my wifes side[all 70s +]. I took the decision that I am not seeing certain people inside as a result(its been a pain!), as not sure I could live with that thought. Haven't even had a cuddle of the new born baby grandchild or mum or like since. But it doesn't all feel right and not sure its right, if there is such a thing as right, in these times. And am slowly realising this isn't workable in the medium term(ie like now!), so are re-assessing as such. Think I am going to build a room with a room, with plastic sheeting and bought some proper masks and stuff like that. 

Out of interest, how are you coping with the issue about if you happen to pass it on ? is it just that they decided what was best for them, so kind of what will be, will be and at least they were doing what they wanted and were happy ?


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## Slab (Oct 9, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			We did a decent job, everywhere closed,  towns cities, streets , roads deserted. 
Were you here to witness it?
		
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I'm not doubting the reduction in traffic once a lockdown of sorts was eventually announced, as I said it seemed a lot like a stay at home holiday atmosphere for many if this forum was any guide
But I didn't make it up, members on this forum posted almost daily about their non-essential purchases, about daily trips to shops by multiple persons from same households about why they wouldn't wear a mask or why they felt their job was essential, just re-read the first 20 pages of this thread for a flavour 

but yes I was also there right before lockdown, 8th - 16th march. Saw it, saw how we cared (or didn't) went to the pub most nights and bought the t-shirt... making me just as guilty as the next person, I'm not proud of it


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 9, 2020)

Scottish restaurant owners who, a week ago, would have been mortified if someone had called their business a cafe are now very keen to let everyone know that they really actually are a cafe. [honest guv]


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## road2ruin (Oct 9, 2020)

DRW said:



			Out of interest, how are you coping with the issue about if you happen to pass it on ? is it just that they decided what was best for them, so kind of what will be, will be and at least they were doing what they wanted and were happy ?
		
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In my own circumstances we talked about it with my parents (mid 70's) and they made it clear that their wish was to see both us and their grandchild. They were aware of the risks and possible consequences however they didn't want to spend the next 3, 6 or 9 months without seeing their family. My other half's mum is late 60's and she's been very much the same, she wants to have as normal a life as possible and for her that includes seeing her grandchildren. We're all going into this with our eyes wide open.


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## robinthehood (Oct 9, 2020)

Slab said:



			I'm not doubting the reduction in traffic once a lockdown of sorts was eventually announced, as I said it seemed a lot like a stay at home holiday atmosphere for many if this forum was any guide
But I didn't make it up, members on this forum posted almost daily about their non-essential purchases, about daily trips to shops by multiple persons from same households about why they wouldn't wear a mask or why they felt their job was essential, just re-read the first 20 pages of this thread for a flavour 

but yes I was also there right before lockdown, 8th - 16th march. Saw it, saw how we cared (or didn't) went to the pub most nights and bought the t-shirt... making me just as guilty as the next person, I'm not proud of it
		
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Lockdown didn't start untill 23rd march. 
It was very well observerved by the majority. Sadly lots of people came up with their own idea of what the rules should be and what they meant. 
You only have to read the threads to see how badly people misunderstood what was being asked.


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## Ethan (Oct 9, 2020)

Slab said:



			I wish that were true but while a lockdown is a measure of control I just don't think that a UK lockdown is the kind of control that's needed from a practical sense
We locked down here hard and fast
They closed the borders
They imposed a curfew
They closed all businesses
They eradicated the virus 100% in 40 days
We've had no indigenous cases for more than 5 months now

We partially reopened the airport 9 days ago & we've had 18 cases arrive in that time (fortunately all arrivals go to quarantine) That's the kind of control that's needed but it is just not sustainable and not something folks in the UK will accept or comply with
		
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Where are you? Mauritius?

Whether the UK could do it or not is a matter of debate. Deciding not to do it because you think it will be hard to pull off is not an adequate reason not to try. The US managed to control their borders to a certain extent, although their systems of controlling what virus got in are terrible. NZ did it. Oz did it decently too.


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## Slab (Oct 9, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Lockdown didn't start untill 23rd march.
It was very well observerved by the majority. Sadly lots of people came up with their own idea of what the rules should be and what they meant.
You only have to read the threads to see how badly people misunderstood what was being asked.
		
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I agree many just did what they thought they could get away with/needed to
My point above to Ethan was that for me that kind of lockdown (and level of control it provided) wasn't going to cut it and we now know it wasn't going to be enough
And my concern is that new lockdowns that aren't even as severe as the 1st (that wasn't severe anyway) just isn't going to be enough second time around
At best it keeps a small measure of control on the rate of spread until a vaccine is found


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## Slab (Oct 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Where are you? Mauritius?

Whether the UK could do it or not is a matter of debate. Deciding not to do it because you think it will be hard to pull off is not an adequate reason not to try. The US managed to control their borders to a certain extent, although their systems of controlling what virus got in are terrible. NZ did it. Oz did it decently too.
		
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I'm not saying don't try, all I'm saying in reply to you saying _'the only way to control this is go back into lockdown' _is that a UK style lockdown is not enough, you know that now by the daily case count, but if you are going to go to lockdown... do it properly
(but I just don't think the folks in the UK will accept what 'do it properly' means)


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## drdel (Oct 9, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			In my own circumstances we talked about it with my parents (mid 70's) and they made it clear that their wish was to see both us and their grandchild. They were aware of the risks and possible consequences however they didn't want to spend the next 3, 6 or 9 months without seeing their family. My other half's mum is late 60's and she's been very much the same, she wants to have as normal a life as possible and for her that includes seeing her grandchildren. We're all going into this with our eyes wide open.
		
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Seems rational in isolation, but if everyone decided to follow your family's example the numbers of infections will continue to rise.


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## GB72 (Oct 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Seems rational in isolation, but if everyone decided to follow your family's example the numbers of infections will continue to rise.
		
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It is a fair point and the one that is at the bottom of all breaches and issues, what is more important to you, being able to live your life or living your life at a massively reduced risk of illness but subject to significant restrictions on what you can or cannot do.


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## DRW (Oct 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Seems rational in isolation, but if everyone decided to follow your family's example the numbers of infections will continue to rise.
		
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yeah but completely within the rules and laws, so lets not judge and be negative 



road2ruin said:



			In my own circumstances we talked about it with my parents (mid 70's) and they made it clear that their wish was to see both us and their grandchild. They were aware of the risks and possible consequences however they didn't want to spend the next 3, 6 or 9 months without seeing their family. My other half's mum is late 60's and she's been very much the same, she wants to have as normal a life as possible and for her that includes seeing her grandchildren. We're all going into this with our eyes wide open.
		
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Cheers.


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## road2ruin (Oct 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Seems rational in isolation, but if everyone decided to follow your family's example the numbers of infections will continue to rise.
		
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I'm talking about what is allowed in the present circumstances though, as things stand what we are doing is without the boundaries. Obviously if the Government announce that you aren't allowed to visit the home of another person or that you cannot do overnight stays then we will have to change our behaviour.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2020)

DRW said:



			I am not judging, as it is so individual in my eyes. However one big issue I have within myself, is that I am not sure I can live with the thought, that I past on the virus, if that leads to a death, with say my mum or my wifes side[all 70s +]. I took the decision that I am not seeing certain people inside as a result(its been a pain!), as not sure I could live with that thought. Haven't even had a cuddle of the new born baby grandchild or mum or like since. But it doesn't all feel right and not sure its right, if there is such a thing as right, in these times. And am slowly realising this isn't workable in the medium term(ie like now!), so are re-assessing as such. Think I am going to build a room with a room, with plastic sheeting and bought some proper masks and stuff like that.

*Out of interest, how are you coping with the issue about if you happen to pass it on ?* is it just that they decided what was best for them, so kind of what will be, will be and at least they were doing what they wanted and were happy ?
		
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I am doing everything within the rules and what I see to be reasonable practicable to ensure I do not get it. I have given my parents a choice if they want me and their grandchildren to see them or not.  I am in now way forcing myself on them, it is their choice.  If I do go and see them I will be socially distancing and assuming it's not hoying it down probably be sat in their garden.  So kind of yes, if it's OK with them it's OK with me. If they have any doubts then they will tell me and I won't bother going to see them. There have been several occasions before when I have not seen them on their request. I think their attitude has slightly changed as well as mine. It's our appetite for risk (within the rules and guidance) but I understand that will be different for everyone depending on their personal circumstances. And that is fine.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			Seems rational in isolation, *but if everyone decided to follow your family's example the numbers of infections will continue to rise*.
		
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Them's the governments rules, and as all golfers know, we just follow them rules and trust that the rule setters know what they are doing.


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## drdel (Oct 9, 2020)

It is an observation  I make no criticism of anyones choice. The issue is that infection control relies on the vast majority of the population avoid interactons: of course that comes with a personal and economic cost. It is called social responsibility.

Do we need be told rules and then try and circumvent them when the common sense logic behind the guidance is pretty obvious


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			It is an observation  I make no criticism of anyones choice. The issue is that infection control relies on the vast majority of the population avoid interactons: of course that comes with a personal and economic cost. It is called social responsibility.

Do we need be told rules and then *try and circumvent them* when the common sense logic behind the guidance is pretty obvious
		
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Is there anything me or R2R has said that is circumnavigating the rules?  We are literally following the currently rules and have said that if the rules change we will adhere to them.  If the rules are not sufficient in your opinion then look the rule makers, not those that are following them.


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## bobmac (Oct 9, 2020)

When lockdown started, I went shopping once every 10-12 days and at 6.30 am.
Then as the cases fell, I went shopping once a week at 10 am.
I have now gone back to 6.30 am every 10-12 days.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 9, 2020)

I was in contact with my girlfriend's son on Sunday, he had a test on Monday and it was positive. My girlfriend and I ordered tests which we have done and posted back today. Now we wait and isolate. 

#bored.com


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## drdel (Oct 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Is there anything me or R2R has said that is circumnavigating the rules?  We are literally following the currently rules and have said that if the rules change we will adhere to them.  If the rules are not sufficient in your opinion then look the rule makers, not those that are following them.
		
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I was not addressing the comment to you or anyone else. I was making an observation.

I'd ask why, as an intelligent person, you need to rely upon or question any rules that are simply reinforcing common sense


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## AmandaJR (Oct 9, 2020)

I drove past a secondary school yesterday at kicking out time. Watched them charge around on their bikes, delighted to be free from school, laughing and enjoying life. No way, at their age, would I have felt either vulnerable to disease nor responsible enough to consider my impact on others health.

I would say at 18 years old certainly the latter would/should have changed and I'd be prepared to make sacrifices for the older generation who were at risk. As a result I struggle to feel sympathy for the university students who didn't follow social distancing rules and are having to pay a price for that behaviour.


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## Beezerk (Oct 9, 2020)

bobmac said:



			When lockdown started, I went shopping once every 10-12 days and at 6.30 am.
Then as the cases fell, I went shopping once a week at 10 am.
I have now gone back to 6.30 am every 10-12 days.

View attachment 32836

Click to expand...

Just to digress slightly, wasn't there accusations of scare mongering the other week when the scientist said we could get 50,000 cases a day if we continued as we were?
Not a bad guess looking at that chart.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 9, 2020)

Got to site an hour ago, checked emails.
Got sent a travel pass again from Whitehall like I got given before last lockdown.  It’s either just in case or somethings brewing.
Ideally if anything is coming could do with that after the 21st. Birthday break in a cottage and hot tub.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			there were politicians driving to Durham.
		
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Got a name


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2020)

We are due to be in Lakes for a week from next Saturday.  We need the break.  That is unless Barrow-in-Furness goes into special measures and takes the whole South Lakes with it.  But we keep our fingers crossed.

Assuming we go, my B-i-L is coming down from Chesterfield to look after our cats for the week - he has has been cooped up with his (90yr old) mum all year keeping her and himself safe - and is desperate for a break and some time by himself (she's driving him nuts and he doesn't get out much from the house at all) - so he's really looking forward to coming down to our place for a holiday.

Unless North Derbyshire goes into special measures - which is possible if Sheffield does - as our son in Sheffield is going to drive him down - and our son is desperate to see us for a day before going back up north.  But he might not be able to if Sheffield goes into special measures.

So much depends upon so much.  We've built a house of cards...but we could just say - you know what...every one of us (six inc. my sons partner) have been taking all the care we have to take, and we have all followed the rules as diligently as we can and must.  And so we might just say - we're going to the Lakes, my son is driving my B-i-L down - he's going to have the break he desperately needs and my son will see us - and we are pretty sure we'll all be OK and no risk to any community or any other individual.

But me and my Mrs aren't 100% happy with that - and so unless it ALL hangs together - we might just knock it all on the head.  Which will be very disappointing and difficult for us all.  But there you go


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			I was not addressing the comment to you or anyone else. I was making an observation.

I'd ask why, as an intelligent person, you need to rely upon or question any rules that are simply reinforcing common sense
		
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Yes cause relying on people to exercise their common sense and not setting down rules for them to follow will get us out of this...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes cause relying on people to exercise their common sense and not setting down rules for them to follow will get us out of this...
		
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Hands, Space, Face.  It's not a great deal to understand.


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## Ethan (Oct 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are due to be in Lakes for a week from next Saturday.  We need the break.  That is unless Barrow-in-Furness goes into special measures and takes the whole South Lakes with it.  But we keep our fingers crossed.

Assuming we go, my B-i-L is coming down from Chesterfield to look after our cats for the week - he has has been cooped up with his (90yr old) mum all year keeping her and himself safe - and is desperate for a break and some time by himself (she's driving him nuts and he doesn't get out much from the house at all) - so he's really looking forward to coming down to our place for a holiday.

Unless North Derbyshire goes into special measures - which is possible if Sheffield does - as our son in Sheffield is going to drive him down - and our son is desperate to see us for a day before going back up north.  But he might not be able to if Sheffield goes into special measures.

So much depends upon so much.  We've built a house of cards...but we could just say - you know what...every one of us (six inc. my sons partner) have been taking all the care we have to take, and we have all followed the rules as diligently as we can and must.  And so we might just say - we're going to the Lakes, my son is driving my B-i-L down - he's going to have the break he desperately needs and my son will see us - and we are pretty sure we'll all be OK and no risk to any community or any other individual.

But me and my Mrs aren't 100% happy with that - and so unless it ALL hangs together - we might just knock it all on the head.  Which will be very disappointing and difficult for us all.  But there you go 

Click to expand...

I think you should knock it on the head. Sorry. I wouldn't do that trip in a fit. 

In my view, there is too much moving around to and from places of high risk. That is precisely how superspreading takes place. There was an example in NI recently of a couple who went for a weekend away, less than 30 miles from home and infected 40 people over a weekend.

Your BIL will be going back to 90 year old mum, BIL himself is no chicken, and unfortunately all the care you have been taking counts for nothing if one person introduces the virus into the circle.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Was that recent holiday in Cornwall really stressful?
😋😋😉
		
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No. - but we need another...got a week to fill...more the need is to her BiL - give him a holiday...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think you should knock it on the head. Sorry. I wouldn't do that trip in a fit.

In my view, there is too much moving around to and from places of high risk. That is precisely how superspreading takes place. There was an example in NI recently of a couple who went for a weekend away, less than 30 miles from home and infected 40 people over a weekend.

Your BIL will be going back to 90 year old mum, BIL himself is no chicken, and unfortunately all the care you have been taking counts for nothing if one person introduces the virus into the circle.
		
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Yes - I know you are right...but risk to my BiL (and hence to my MiL) would seem to be very low where we are in Surrey/Hants borders. And he wouldnt be minglin’. And we wouldnt be doing much other than walking from isolated accommodation in the lakes.  Just keep fingers crossed all hangs together.

Our concern is not for us or our lad - but for my BiL and his mental health...which is taking a battering on many fronts.  He’s the one who really needs the break and that we wish to help by vacating our home for a week for him to use.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hands, Space, Face.  It's not a great deal to understand.
		
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Is that after we’ve:

Stayed at home
Protected the NHS
Saved lives

or then when we:

Stayed Alert
Controlled The Virus
Saved Lives

Or

Rule of six...........


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## robinthehood (Oct 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Is that after we’ve:

Stayed at home
Protected the NHS
Saved lives

or then when we:

Stayed Alert
Controlled The Virus
Saved Lives

Or

Rule of six...........
		
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Or eat out..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 10, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Or eat out..
		
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All very easy to understand.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2020)

Is it mandatory to wear my mask when in the outdoors areas of a garden centre...?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			All very easy to understand.

Click to expand...

A bit like hands, knees and bumpsadaisy...🙄


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 10, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes cause relying on people to exercise their common sense and not setting down rules for them to follow will get us out of this...
		
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In a way , you are both right. But HK makes an indisputable point.
If you left it to common sense, honourable and sensible people would take the necessary care.
But a lot, and in this country now it is a lot, of people are choosing not to have those attributes, so rules as opposed to guidance, are necessary for them- but , of course, some are also defiant and they readily break the rules, making it easy to lay the blame on the rule makers .Because, even that defiance  is not acknowledged by many, for various nefarious reasons.

It boils down to " Einstein was right"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2020)

Give people a reason to break rules they don‘t like or don’t believe in, and some will do so - especially when the referee is poor or weak, and the penalty is not harsh enough nor rarely applied.  I think we are seeing in the behaviour of many a rather entitled and arrogant aspect of the UK that is doing us no favours.🙁


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## drdel (Oct 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Give people a reason to break rules they don‘t like or don’t believe in, and some will do so - especially when the referee is poor or weak, and the penalty is not harsh enough nor rarely applied.  I think we are seeing in the behaviour of many a rather entitled and arrogant aspect of the UK that is doing us no favours.🙁
		
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Rather ironic when a few posts ago and you sought to justify an ill advised trip.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Not sure if that is aimed at my post as you haven't quoted.  If it is then it's a bit pathetic and making light of the most important rule.
		
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Apologies - it wasn't aimed at your post - it was in response to one or more posts that seem have suggested (perhaps - I may have misunderstood) that neat little 'rule of three' phrases dreamt up by whoever, are all very well...but they, in themselves, can seem to trivialise something that is extremely serious - and could become perceived to be a bit of a joke - and there are some who will take that as a reason to ignore.

I gave you exhibit #1 - referring to the countries coronavirus suppression strategy as a very simple children's game that some of us hadn't even heard of - when it wasn't even a sensible tag as all that happens is that the 'whacked' pops up somewhere else.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2020)

drdel said:



			Rather ironic when a few posts ago and you sought to justify an ill advised trip.
		
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Yes indeed I did.  And no need for the dig as I was simply demonstrating that the temptation to do what is 'our will' is in us all when we often know 'what is right'.  I aim to live in accordance with 'what is right' rather than what I want to do - as is the case in this instance.

My point being that, as we have seen in many different situations in golf and in life discussed on this forum, that many prefer to do what they want to do rather than what is right...and what is best for others and the wider community.  And that is what we see in the attitude to many in respect of virus transmission limitation measures.

The dig was quite unnecessary.


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## huds1475 (Oct 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Just to digress slightly, wasn't there accusations of scare mongering the other week when the scientist said we could get 50,000 cases a day if we continued as we were?
Not a bad guess looking at that chart.
		
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Correct a lot of chimps calling it 'project fear', despite them (Whitby & Vallance) clearly stating it wasn't a prediction.

All quiet now...


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## IainP (Oct 10, 2020)

bobmac said:



			When lockdown started, I went shopping once every 10-12 days and at 6.30 am.
Then as the cases fell, I went shopping once a week at 10 am.
I have now gone back to 6.30 am every 10-12 days.

View attachment 32836

Click to expand...

Whilst not as formal as you, I've also started to reign in on areas where I had begun to be less cautious/careful about.
Yesterday globally was a new high of 358K cases, with Europe back setting the pace again,  like a few months ago 😕


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

Picadilly Circus last night!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1315065259703623687


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Picadilly Circus last night!

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1315065259703623687

Click to expand...

It's proven so far if you pre warn of a change you get idiots like this 

If you don't you get moaned at

Lose lose


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's proven so far if you pre warn of a change you get idiots like this

If you don't you get moaned at

Lose lose
		
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Nothing to do with pre-warning people, it’s more obvious the message isn’t getting through.

London has been like this since the pubs re-opened.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Nothing to do with pre-warning people, *it’s more obvious the message isn’t getting through.*

London has been like this since the pubs re-opened.

Click to expand...

No, the message is getting through. They have got the message. They are choosing to ignore it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, the message is getting through. They have got the message. They are choosing to ignore it.
		
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What message? Parts of the North East under extra lockdown with lower infection rates than parts of London.

Just what is the message to people in London.

Why is blanket coverage ok only up North?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What message? Parts of the North East under extra lockdown with lower infection rates than parts of London.

Just what is the message to people in London.

Why is blanket coverage ok only up North?
		
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££££££ simple as that


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 11, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			In a way , you are both right. But HK makes an indisputable point.
If you left it to common sense, honourable and sensible people would take the necessary care.
But a lot, and in this country now it is a lot, of people are choosing not to have those attributes, so rules as opposed to guidance, are necessary for them- but , of course, some are also defiant and they readily break the rules, making it easy to lay the blame on the rule makers .Because, even that defiance  is not acknowledged by many, for various nefarious reasons.

It boils down to " Einstein was right"
		
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Just want to reiterate that I'm not condemning those that do break the rules. 

The challenge is that the guidance to stop the spread by social distancing, hands washing etc is sound. But within that general common sense guidance, rules are needed as, rightly or wrongly, the location and situation means that you can do different things at different times in different places within that guidance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

Really strange these figures and whose on lockdown:


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Really strange these figures and whose on lockdown:
View attachment 32870

View attachment 32872

Click to expand...

Without going too political they don't want to anger the heartlands


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Without going too political they don't want to anger the heartlands
		
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But when normal, intelligent people are abiding by the rules/guidance in one area are ok and then in an  identical area in other parts of the Country they behave the same, we only label one lot as idiots.

It’s time to lockdown the whole Country again imo.


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## IainP (Oct 11, 2020)

Could hospital admissions also be a factor?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Also a cases map in the link


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just want to reiterate that I'm not condemning those that do break the rules. 

The challenge is that the guidance to stop the spread by social distancing, hands washing etc is sound. But within that general common sense guidance, rules are needed as, rightly or wrongly, the location and situation means that you can do different things at different times in different places within that guidance.
		
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But surely the basic three guidelines underpin everything, all the additional rules do is reinforce them.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But when normal, intelligent people are abiding by the rules/guidance in one area are ok and then in an  identical area in other parts of the Country they behave the same, we only label one lot as idiots.

It’s time to lockdown the whole Country again imo.
		
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Very much doubt we will see a national lockdown again 

When we had it in march it was an unknown virus, fears of the NHS being over whelmed and need to re-evaluate way of life.

We now have restrictions 
Covid is more understood than before
The NHS is coping

Nationwide lockdown would completely cripple the country further maybe beyond all recovery.

Just can't see it happening.

Everything but lockdown


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			But when normal, intelligent people are abiding by the rules/guidance in one area are ok and then in an  identical area in other parts of the Country they behave the same, we only label one lot as idiots.

It’s time to lockdown the whole Country again imo.
		
Click to expand...

The infection rates per 100,000 speak for themselves.  In areas where they are low there's no need for a lockdown.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

IainP said:



			Could hospital admissions also be a factor?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Also a cases map in the link
		
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Very interesting charts there and no understandable reason why they would be higher in the north than the south ..

Unless us southern softies are just tougher lol


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The infection rates per 100,000 speak for themselves.  In areas where they are low there's no need for a lockdown.
		
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You mean like parts of the North East and North West were that has happened, whole region treated with a broad brush.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

IainP said:



			Could hospital admissions also be a factor?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274
Also a cases map in the link
		
Click to expand...

Yes, except it seems in and around London.🤷‍♂️


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



*Very interesting charts there and no understandable reason why they would be higher in the north than the south ..*

Unless us southern softies are just tougher lol
		
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I'd argue there are many reasons combining at the same time such as affluence, population density, ethnicity, employment structure, university locations and no doubt many others. Looking for one single reason is impossible.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes, except it seems in and around London.🤷‍♂️
		
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Did you miss the graph? Look at the difference between London and the north


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## Ethan (Oct 11, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd argue there are many reasons combining at the same time such as affluence, population density, ethnicity, employment structure, university locations and no doubt many others. Looking for one single reason is impossible.
		
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Random chance plays a huge part too.


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## patricks148 (Oct 11, 2020)

went down town today and it was full of people in shops not wearing masks, not making any effort to SD and in the shoe shop we were in a woman was trying on shoes with her mask not even covering her mouth, coughed right on the sales asst. School holidays so mostly vistors by the sound of some of the accents


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 32873


Did you miss the graph? Look at the difference between London and the north
		
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No, it’s not just one thing, look at the other graphs, Watford for example and why there infection rate per 100,000 is so high, then ask if their infected are going to hospital or not.

Plenty of isolated communities in the NE with no hospital admissions but still under lockdown because of location.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No, it’s not just one thing, look at the other graphs, Watford for example and why there infection rate per 100,000 is so high, then ask if their infected are going to hospital or not.

Plenty of isolated communities in the NE with no hospital admissions but still under lockdown because of location.
		
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Yes but the point being discussed in the reply was is it something to do with hospital admissions and looking at the figures London and the south east figures are very low compared to the north areas on lock down


First lockdown was to "protect the NHS" so maybe that's just what some of the thinking is 

Not agreeing with it ofc.

Is it to do with areas they are under of control. We have stupid amount of boroughs of London in the space the north would have 1 or 2.... So have to go with the figures for the whole of the area not the one small bit


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes but the point being discussed in the reply was is it something to do with hospital admissions and looking at the figures London and the south east figures are very low compared to the north areas on lock down


First lockdown was to "protect the NHS" so maybe that's just what some of the thinking is

Not agreeing with it ofc.
		
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I understand the North has higher numbers, but the fact is parts of the South are now at higher rates than when the North was put on extra lockdown, I’m not suggesting for one minute to unlock the North, but the goalposts for when extra lockdown should be implemented seemed to have moved.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 11, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I understand the North has higher numbers, but the fact is parts of the South are now at higher rates than when the North was put on extra lockdown, I’m not suggesting for one minute to unlock the North, but the goalposts for when extra lockdown should be implemented seemed to have moved.
		
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I would hazard a guess is the levels they set for original local measures are now within reach of almost everyone and they want to avoid a national lockdown so have moved the goalposts to make sure they don't shoot themsleves in the foot but walking into one


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## Old Skier (Oct 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			went down town today and it was full of people in shops not wearing masks, not making any effort to SD and in the shoe shop we were in a woman was trying on shoes with her mask not even covering her mouth, coughed right on the sales asst. School holidays so mostly vistors by the sound of some of the accents
		
Click to expand...

Suprised that the shops are allowing this behaviour, more interested in a sale than following the rules?


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## patricks148 (Oct 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Suprised that the shops are allowing this behaviour, more interested in a sale than following the rules?
		
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 the woman in the shoe shop was a very rough looking Weegie, and the shop assistant was a young girl, didn't stop my wife teller to stick her mask back on though


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## KenL (Oct 11, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			went down town today and it was full of people in shops not wearing masks, not making any effort to SD and in the shoe shop we were in a woman was trying on shoes with her mask not even covering her mouth, coughed right on the sales asst. School holidays so mostly vistors by the sound of some of the accents
		
Click to expand...

It is not school holidays everywhere.  Edinburgh and Lothians start next weekend.


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## KenL (Oct 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Suprised that the shops are allowing this behaviour, more interested in a sale than following the rules?
		
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I think in general people are told to not challenge in case they are exempt.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2020)

The virus spread is not always the same in different conurbations. Take Bristol for example, it's a big city that has two Universities, a fairly big BAME community, a number of highly populated areas but the infection rates have remained fairly low throughout the pandemic.  I also see from one of the charts that the Outer Hebrides has a higher infection rate than the bordering mainland areas.  The Southwest has fairly low levels throughout except for Exeter, I guess that must have something to do with its University although Plymouth is much lower.   I have a feeling the problem is more to do with Social attitudes than environmental.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2020)

My Mrs gets a letter on Friday from NHS Professionals asking her to join T&T - she applied right at the start - and asking first off what shifts she can do...What?

Why was she not asked during the summer for all the evidence and validation she is now being asked to provide. Why did they not do the training on procedures - get her set up with any software required etc...so she would be on their bank and ready to go come October when we knew a second surge was very likely.

Asking her now in the first email what shifts she can do? Ah well.  Too late.  Since she applied and wasn’t taken on she’s signed up for the hospital bank to provide cover for the old team.

Not sufficient forward thinking has gone into T&T - or maybe the private company who she would now work for if she did it didn’t fancy spending the money on training and prepping her.  What a shambles is our world class T&T..Mrs is really annoyed and frustrated with them


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## Imurg (Oct 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs gets a letter on Friday from NHS Professionals asking her to join T&T - she applied right at the start - and asking first off what shifts she can do...What?

Why was she not asked during the summer for all the evidence and validation she is now being asked to provide. Why did they not do the training on procedures - get her set up with any software required etc...so she would be on their bank and ready to go come October when we knew a second surge was very likely.

Asking her now in the first email what shifts she can do? Ah well.  Too late.  Since she applied and wasn’t taken on she’s signed up for the hospital bank to provide cover for the old team.

Not sufficient forward thinking has gone into T&T - or maybe the private company who she would now work for if she did it didn’t fancy spending the money on training and prepping her.  What a shambles is our world class T&T..Mrs is really annoyed and frustrated with them 

Click to expand...

Or maybe they just had some vacancies and she was next on the list of applicants....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Or maybe they just had some vacancies and she was next on the list of applicants....
		
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Could be. Though if so why not get her sorted, on-boarded and trained well in advance of actually asking what shifts she can work...or at least tell her she was on the reserve list.  instead nothing - and now too late as she has been asked to go on the bank for the nhs cancer team she worked in, and she has, and can’t do both.


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Could be. Though if so why not get her sorted, on-boarded and trained well in advance of actually asking what shifts she can work...or at least tell her she was on the reserve list.  instead nothing - and now too late as she has been asked to go on the bank for the nhs cancer team she worked in, and she has, and can’t do both.
		
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... or maybe the 5 on the list before her said no. Maybe a big second spike wasn't expected, or that a vaccine would be in place. 

And maybe you're pre-judging without all the facts.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 11, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			... or maybe the 5 on the list before her said no. Maybe a big second spike wasn't expected, or that a vaccine would be in place.

*And maybe you're pre-judging without all the facts.*

Click to expand...

Only maybe?


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 11, 2020)

Cases beginning to rise a little sharper https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r.../berkshire-coronavirus-cases-rise-85-19085077

That said we've been really level in terms of ICU admissions for the last 4-5 weeks (since the second wave has been said to be taken hold). I have no doubt we'll see it. At the moment, certainly down here, it is like those old war films when you see the soldiers on the top of the cliff looking out to see awaiting the invasion fleet. You know it's coming, maybe not today or tomorrow, but at some point. Will be interesting to hear the next set of measures (presuming the three tier system being touted).


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## garyinderry (Oct 11, 2020)

KenL said:



			I think in general people are told to not challenge in case they are exempt.
		
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I'm struggling to understand why anyone with dodgey breathing would want to walk about without a mask.  They should be wearing extra protection.


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## Ethan (Oct 11, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			I'm struggling to understand why anyone with dodgey breathing would want to walk about without a mask.  They should be wearing extra protection.
		
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In my opinion there are very few legit reasons not to wear a mask. Asthma and COPD are not among them. It is ridiculous that people can just buy a lanyard and self-declare themselves exempt.


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## larmen (Oct 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			In my opinion there are very few legit reasons not to wear a mask. Asthma and COPD are not among them. It is ridiculous that people can just buy a lanyard and self-declare themselves exempt.
		
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Anybody who has a proper reason should be in fairly constant contact with his GP/consultant anyway and be told to stay away from others. Remember shielding? Maybe there should be mask or official lanyard rule/law.

And once again, people wearing it wrongly, ahhhhh! Maybe tasers are the right thing ...


But we got toilet paper and pasta. We did a cupboard clean and even found an extra pack of Morrisons pasta. We haven't been to Morrisons since we moved 26 months ago ;-) Lockdown ready!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 12, 2020)

I'll frame this as a press comment but it would be nice if leaks stopped appearing in the press about upcoming restrictions.  At the start of all this it was rightly acknowledged that finding out about upcoming restrictions that could impact your livelihood in the Daily Telegraph was not the best so it was stopped.  But we now seem to have gone back to Peston and Kunessberg announcing government policy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 12, 2020)

KenL said:



			It is not school holidays everywhere.  Edinburgh and Lothians start next weekend.
		
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Ayrshire have been on holiday from Friday afternoon [9th]


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## User62651 (Oct 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ayrshire have been on holiday from Friday afternoon [9th]
		
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Ours in Argyll went on holiday Friday 2nd so we're half way through.
Dont quite get this, I think summer holidays for scottish state schools all follow the same 6 or 7 weeks, yet the October fortnight holiday can be any 2 weeks in October depending on where you live. 
Rumours a while ago were there'd be a 2 week circuit breaker during school October holidays (kids at home so good time to do it) until people realised the above!


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## road2ruin (Oct 12, 2020)

Whilst the increase in hospitalisations is a concern I've read a couple of articles that suggest we're not in the same situation as we were in March based on the experience of those in Europe who we are constantly told we're a few weeks behind....

Italian doctor...

_“On Covid, he writes: ‘The hospitalisations are growing, but fortunately also the discharges. Compared to the terrible days of last spring, we are witnessing on average shorter hospitalisations, slightly lower average age (67 years today), more manageable disease and practically zero lethality. We still have a few more complex cases, but these represent the minority.

“‘We have the drugs, we know how and when to use them, and we are more confident in what we do. It is therefore necessary to avoid giving messages of terror.'”_

French doctor...

_"......there is no cause for real concern yet’. And why not? ‘Our hospitals are now better equipped, doctors are more knowledgeable about the virus and they have developed new techniques to treat patients. We do not ventilate patients anywhere near as much – as we know now that it is something to do only as a last resort.’ Eight regions in France still have no Covid patients in ICU beds."_

Hopefully it follows a similar path in our hospitals given the inevitable rise in hospitalised cases.


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## DRW (Oct 12, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Just to digress slightly, wasn't there accusations of scare mongering the other week when the scientist said we could get 50,000 cases a day if we continued as we were?
Not a bad guess looking at that chart.
		
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I think the 50,000 cases  day were shown(not a prediction) as happening by tomorrow( Tuesday IIRC) and unless they find a load of cases in the excel spreadsheet, looks like we are miles off that figure (thankfully...….).

Scotlands science 'predictions' on their modelling are even madder imho, that they produced last week. The report is interesting reading, if you are into that kind of thing.

If you wish to see a comparison normally this guy uploads a chart daily and again thankfully we are nowhere near doubling every 7 days on the not a prediction chart.

https://twitter.com/RP131


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			... or maybe the 5 on the list before her said no. Maybe a big second spike wasn't expected, or that a vaccine would be in place.

And maybe you're pre-judging without all the facts.
		
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I read yesterday that 2000 contracted have been released by T&T over the last few weeks.  Look.  The facts are plain and incontrovertible.

My wife applied for T&T when applications were first sought.  She is exactly what T&T requires - as confirmed by an email she got back from our MP Jeremy Hunt when she first raised her concerns to him.  Many weeks passed with nothing until she was told she was not required - since then again absolutely nothing until Friday when out of the blue they are asking her what shifts she can do? 

Her frustration is simply that they could have trained up such as her so she would be ‘oven ready’ (to coin a phrase) - and put her on a ‘bank’ of professionals ready to step in immediately the need arose. As many knew it would.   But no.  Even if she could still join T&T she finds it typical NHS (or NHS provider) to leave things to the last minute then reactively start a process that could have been done and dusted (to coin another) many months ago.

What other facts are pertinent to _that?_


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## Ethan (Oct 12, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Whilst the increase in hospitalisations is a concern I've read a couple of articles that suggest we're not in the same situation as we were in March based on the experience of those in Europe who we are constantly told we're a few weeks behind....

Italian doctor...

_“On Covid, he writes: ‘The hospitalisations are growing, but fortunately also the discharges. Compared to the terrible days of last spring, we are witnessing on average shorter hospitalisations, slightly lower average age (67 years today), more manageable disease and practically zero lethality. We still have a few more complex cases, but these represent the minority._

_“‘We have the drugs, we know how and when to use them, and we are more confident in what we do. It is therefore necessary to avoid giving messages of terror.'”_

French doctor...

_"......there is no cause for real concern yet’. And why not? ‘Our hospitals are now better equipped, doctors are more knowledgeable about the virus and they have developed new techniques to treat patients. We do not ventilate patients anywhere near as much – as we know now that it is something to do only as a last resort.’ Eight regions in France still have no Covid patients in ICU beds."_

Hopefully it follows a similar path in our hospitals given the inevitable rise in hospitalised cases.
		
Click to expand...


I think the severity seems to have softened slightly, not because the virus is any different but because the vulnerable population is younger and fitter, having been stripped of many of the older people first time round. Treatments are also better understood, but that doesn't affect presenting condition. 

I know a doctor in the front line in the hospital in Derry, NI and she says it is very much still a matter of great concern, though. They are a hair's breadth from being overwhelmed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			I think the 50,000 cases  day were shown(not a prediction) as happening by tomorrow( Tuesday IIRC) and unless they find a load of cases in the excel spreadsheet, looks like we are miles off that figure (thankfully...….).

Scotlands science 'predictions' on their modelling are even madder imho, that they produced last week. The report is interesting reading, if you are into that kind of thing.

If you wish to see a comparison normally this guy uploads a chart daily and again thankfully we are nowhere near doubling every 7 days on the not a prediction chart.

https://twitter.com/RP

Click to expand...

 Just as well proactive measures are in place that dampen unhindered mathematical certainty.  I am also thinking that there are likely to be estimates made of unmeasured infection numbers not identified through testing - so not sure you can draw complete conclusions on actual transmission and infection growth in the community simply from test results


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs gets a letter on Friday from NHS Professionals asking her to join T&T - she applied right at the start - and asking first off what shifts she can do...What?

Why was she not asked during the summer for all the evidence and validation she is now being asked to provide. Why did they not do the training on procedures - get her set up with any software required etc...so she would be on their bank and ready to go come October when we knew a second surge was very likely.

Asking her now in the first email what shifts she can do? Ah well.  Too late.  Since she applied and wasn’t taken on she’s signed up for the hospital bank to provide cover for the old team.

Not sufficient forward thinking has gone into T&T - or maybe the private company who she would now work for if she did it didn’t fancy spending the money on training and prepping her.  What a shambles is our world class T&T..Mrs is really annoyed and frustrated with them 

Click to expand...

I think you are over estimating what is required to do the job. The woman who runs the dog kennels where my daughter did her saturday job worked on the T & T. No medical or IT background, none was needed. She would sit in front of a screen, refreshing every few minutes, waiting for a ping to occur. She would then ring the numbers given to advise that the people she was ringing to isolate, or they had been close to someone who had tested positive. On a busy week she would have 2 phone calls to make. It was a tremendous waste of money across the country. I suspect the training required would have barely gone past 5-10 minutes. If it did then it was only becasue they were stretching it out.

A lot of the people doing this have now probably gone back to university, are off furlough, so they are upping their numbers again to deal with the current rise in cases. If your wife doesn't take up the offer they will simply go down the list to the next person. It is easy money for an unskilled job. Keep watching your box set, playing video games whilst being paid for the privelege.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 12, 2020)

Interesting information when all the media attention seems to be on the hospitality industry.


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## DRW (Oct 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Interesting information when all the media attention seems to be on the hospitality industry.

Click to expand...


Its crazy isn't it, think the information above comes from the ONS stuff iirc, on the week I looked at the pubs etc was 5%.


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## DRW (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just as well proactive measures are in place that dampen *unhindered mathematical certainty*.  I am also thinking that there are likely to be estimates made of unmeasured infection numbers not identified through testing - so not sure you can draw complete conclusions on actual transmission and infection growth in the community simply from test results
		
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Your funny

Not going to comment on the political measures they actually took(ie not a lot) and how they long they take to filter tho to test results, as not allowed to speak no evil political but what you say above isn't quite true


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			Its crazy isn't it, think the information above comes from the ONS stuff iirc, on the week I looked at the pubs etc was 5%.
		
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Pubs etc opened in June, daily rises started to to increase badly in sept when schools/Uni’s etc opened up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Interesting information when all the media attention seems to be on the hospitality industry.
View attachment 32882

Click to expand...

I'd love to see figures right now with schoolkids and university students removed. They are surely distorting the figures massively.


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## Ethan (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			Its crazy isn't it, think the information above comes from the ONS stuff iirc, on the week I looked at the pubs etc was 5%.
		
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Some of those settings are discretionary and avoidable, some aren't. People need to live somewhere, whether that is in a care home or student accommodation, so there is always going to be a certain number of cases attached to those sorts of places. They don't "need" to go to pubs and clubs, so that is a risk that can be avoided. I would also be a little dubious about that 5%.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 12, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Pubs etc opened in June, daily rises started to to increase badly in sept when schools/Uni’s etc opened up.
		
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Tottaly agree.
But we’re not allowed to blame schools when it’s the worst place to be.
My wife and daughter work in schools.
The amount of people off work in schools now is getting worse and soon they will not be able to open.


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## DRW (Oct 12, 2020)

An interesting looking article :-

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/eci.13423




			Global infection fatality rate is 0.15-0.20% (0.03-0.04% in those <70 years)
		
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Will have a proper read later, as looks like it covers various areas in the paper.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Some of those settings are discretionary and avoidable, some aren't. People need to live somewhere, whether that is in a care home or student accommodation, so there is always going to be a certain number of cases attached to those sorts of places. They don't "need" to go to pubs and clubs, so that is a risk that can be avoided. I would also be a little dubious about that 5%.
		
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Why dubious? The stats came from PHE.


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## DRW (Oct 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Some of those settings are discretionary and avoidable, some aren't. People need to live somewhere, whether that is in a care home or student accommodation, so there is always going to be a certain number of cases attached to those sorts of places. They don't "need" to go to pubs and clubs, so that is a risk that can be avoided. *I would also be a little dubious about that 5%*.
		
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You either believe data collected, verify it, make sure it is sensible and act on it or you just ignore it and do your own thing.

Personally I prefer the first option, rather than seat of the pants, gut feeling, made up stuff.

We also need to look at the whole picture and not just covid. As posted before this is a fine balancing act and people are going to die from whatever we do......its only a matter who, how early and how many.


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## Ethan (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			You either believe data collected, verify it, make sure it is sensible and act on it or you just ignore it and do your own thing.

Personally I prefer the first option, rather than seat of the pants, gut feeling, made up stuff.

We also need to look at the whole picture and not just covid. As posted before this is a fine balancing act and people are going to die from whatever we do......its only a matter who, how early and how many.

Click to expand...

It isn't a matter of believing the data, it is a matter of knowing there are some inherent biases in their collection. Data is more useful if reliable. 

I have done contact tracing myself, and it is hard to be sure where the location of transmission was. People were out at work, then in the pub with colleagues later, so where did the transmission take place between two colleagues? These questions tend to default to the places they spent most time, so the workplace (or home or student accommodation) get nominated. That assumption carries a level of uncertainty.


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## Beezerk (Oct 12, 2020)

On the subject of pubs, the micro pub I frequent had a call yesterday morning to say there had been a positive case who had been in there recently. That started loads of Facebook and WhatsApp chatter as to who it could be, proper witch hunt style 😆
I bumped into the owner of the micro pub yesterday afternoon and had a quick natter, he didn't give many details but said there was nothing to worry about as the fella who tested positive was only in a short time and the place had been empty.
They still closed the place yesterday and got it deep cleaned as a precaution though.
It did get me a touch concerned for a few hours though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It isn't a matter of believing the data, it is a matter of knowing there are some inherent biases in their collection. Data is more useful if reliable.

I have done contact tracing myself, and it is hard to be sure where the location of transmission was. People were out at work, then in the pub with colleagues later, so where did the transmission take place between two colleagues? These questions tend to default to the places they spent most time, so the workplace (or home or student accommodation) get nominated. That assumption carries a level of uncertainty.
		
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Which makes a lot of sense, so why put so much emphasis on the pubs etc?


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## DRW (Oct 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It isn't a matter of believing the data, it is a matter of knowing there are some inherent biases in their collection. Data is more useful if reliable.

I have done contact tracing myself, and it is hard to be sure where the location of transmission was. People were out at work, then in the pub with colleagues later, so where did the transmission take place between two colleagues? These questions tend to default to the places they spent most time, so the workplace (or home or student accommodation) get nominated. That assumption carries a level of uncertainty.
		
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A couple of simple further questions, would give you on balance the most likely answer tbh.

Did you ask any further questions or are you not allowed to ? and out of interested if you didn't ask more, what did you tick the transmission took place or does that case go unallocated ?


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## Ethan (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			A couple of simple further questions, would give you on balance the most likely answer tbh.

Did you ask any further questions or are you not allowed to ? and out of interested if you didn't ask more, what did you tick the transmission took place or does that case go unallocated ?
		
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I haven't done contact tracing for Covid, but in previous outbreaks of other stuff. I believe the Serco T&T uses a tightly controlled script. Not sure about local PHE. 

The problem is that the transmission window is quite broad, to could have happened in a 24 or 48 hour period, so there is usually a list of exposures, and a tendency for one somewhere around the middle of the suspect period to be chosen, which is usually one where the person has spent most time. But the exposure risk is not necessarily the same in all. All I am saying is that these data present clean summaries of dirty information. There are margins of uncertainty with each.

One sensible approach is to reduce contact where possible. Let people work from home, avoid public transport and avoid social gatherings whether those are meeting in the pub or in someone's lounge. We know this is a condition spread by prolonged close contact indoors, often in places with poor ventilation.  Pubs and restaurants tick a few of those boxes.


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## Mudball (Oct 12, 2020)

First time ever in my life... got a flu jab..  one thing off the list.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			I'm struggling to understand why anyone with dodgey breathing would want to walk about without a mask.  They should be wearing extra protection.
		
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Ethan said:



			In my opinion there are very few legit reasons not to wear a mask. Asthma and COPD are not among them. It is ridiculous that people can just buy a lanyard and self-declare themselves exempt.
		
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Maybe if you were asthmatic you might understand 

I suffer from varying degrees - and many times I can’t wear a mask for more than a minute before I start to struggle .

I have extra protection in regards my medication but right now it’s not great when people point and hollow at you for not wearing a mask - the “mask police “ are getting worse 

I would hope people would be a bit more understanding of everyone’s situation


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I haven't done contact tracing for Covid, but in previous outbreaks of other stuff. I believe the Serco T&T uses a tightly controlled script. Not sure about local PHE.

The problem is that the transmission window is quite broad, to could have happened in a 24 or 48 hour period, so there is usually a list of exposures, and a tendency for one somewhere around the middle of the suspect period to be chosen, which is usually one where the person has spent most time. But the exposure risk is not necessarily the same in all. All I am saying is that these data present clean summaries of dirty information. There are margins of uncertainty with each.

One sensible approach is to reduce contact where possible. Let people work from home, avoid public transport and avoid social gatherings whether those are meeting in the pub or in someone's lounge. *We know this is a condition spread by prolonged close contact indoors, often in places with poor ventilation. * Pubs and restaurants tick a few of those boxes.
		
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This.
i read recently a report from scientists. It was a link from someone on here,( but I can't readily find it)  and this report said that there was a recent thinking about the nature of spread of Covid. Whereas before talk was of droplets in the air, and 2 metres etc, it was now believed that much spread was via "aerosol "
And apparently  this means that breathing in air which is contaminated because it is expelled air from a Covid positive. Expelled air can hang around for up to an hour in poorly ventilated places, particularly indoors.
Much like if someone smokes in your vicinity, how long does the smoke, in various concentrations, hang about.

Now, we've all been in pubs where someone is/has smoked, so I'll leave you to decide whether you would be breathing their expelled air or not, but if the same situation is obtaining re Covid positives' breath, then I will avoid pubs etc thank you.

This attribute of Covid has not been publicised enough in my view, but if it is the case, to my mind it is explaining the surge in cases.

Avoiding a low risk is better than taking a low risk.


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## Beezerk (Oct 12, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe if you were asthmatic you might understand

I suffer from varying degrees - and many times I can’t wear a mask for more than a minute before I start to struggle .

I have extra protection in regards my medication but right now it’s not great when people point and hollow at you for not wearing a mask - the “mask police “ are getting worse

I would hope people would be a bit more understanding of everyone’s situation
		
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I heard a doctor on the radio a while ago, back when mask wearing was made compulsory, he suggested that asthmatics would actually benefit from wearing masks as it purifes the air to some degree.
I know from the masks I've tried some are harder to breath in than others, the white n95 or whatever they are are definitely harder to breath in than those blue surgical types.
Maybe try a different style mask to see if it helps?


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## Ethan (Oct 12, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe if you were asthmatic you might understand

I suffer from varying degrees - and many times I can’t wear a mask for more than a minute before I start to struggle .

I have extra protection in regards my medication but right now it’s not great when people point and hollow at you for not wearing a mask - the “mask police “ are getting worse

I would hope people would be a bit more understanding of everyone’s situation
		
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Well, the facts are that masks have zero effect on the amount of oxygen getting into the lungs or to tissues. Operating theatres and Covid wards across the country are full of asthmatic doctors and nurses wearing masks for a lot longer than a minute with no problems whatsoever. I used to work on a chest ward and have treated plenty of asthmatics and COPDs.

If you have bad asthma you may be more vulnerable to getting respiratory infections, and you are certainly more likely to have a difficult time if you get Covid. You really should consider working on your fear of the mask. It might save you some grief down the line.

Still, at least you have a medical condition which arguably is a legit reason not to wear one. Many of those not wearing one are doing so out of a culture war belief they are being oppressed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, the facts are that masks have zero effect on the amount of oxygen getting into the lungs or to tissues. Operating theatres and Covid wards across the country are full of asthmatic doctors and nurses wearing masks for a lot longer than a minute with no problems whatsoever. I used to work on a chest ward and have treated plenty of asthmatics and COPDs.

If you have bad asthma you may be more vulnerable to getting respiratory infections, and you are certainly more likely to have a difficult time if you get Covid. You really should consider working on your fear of the mask. It might save you some grief down the line.

Still, at least you have a medical condition which arguably is a legit reason not to wear one. Many of those not wearing one are doing so out of a culture war belief they are being oppressed.
		
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I don’t have a “fear” of masks , at times my breathing feels restricted by the mask so I don’t wear it until it eases off - have even been to seen my doctor who has also advised others have had the issues. I try and wear a mask whenever I can . And i also had zero issues when I had to wear a respirator during exercises. 

Everyone is different but right now the mask police appear to have given themselves the authority to shout at people


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## Hobbit (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read yesterday that 2000 contracted have been released by T&T over the last few weeks.  Look.  The facts are plain and incontrovertible.

My wife applied for T&T when applications were first sought.  She is exactly what T&T requires - as confirmed by an email she got back from our MP Jeremy Hunt when she first raised her concerns to him.  Many weeks passed with nothing until she was told she was not required - since then again absolutely nothing until Friday when out of the blue they are asking her what shifts she can do?

Her frustration is simply that they could have trained up such as her so she would be ‘oven ready’ (to coin a phrase) - and put her on a ‘bank’ of professionals ready to step in immediately the need arose. As many knew it would.   But no.  Even if she could still join T&T she finds it typical NHS (or NHS provider) to leave things to the last minute then reactively start a process that could have been done and dusted (to coin another) many months ago.

What other facts are pertinent to _that?_

Click to expand...

If you believe those are pertinent you need your head read. You've written assumptions based on what?

Your wife was deemed not acceptable, whatever your cuddly MP said, otherwise she would have been employed.

But lets talk about this training course you think she, and a lot of others, should have had, way before the need was identified, based on your scenario. 'X' number of T&T's trained on the off chance they might be needed. Great waste of money if your scenario hadn't come to fruition. Money that the UK has been directing towards keeping people in jobs. And if the UK had adopted the rules put in place, as Sweden did, do you think the spike would be as big? I watch here from Spain, and listen to many expats who have come out for the winter. The size of the spike you're seeing is down to the plethora of idiots there are who believe they know better, you being one of them.

Even today I read about how stupid the multi-level lockdowns are. The UK has mirrored the options taken by many countries around the world. Some of those countries have taken on board the lockdowns sensibly, but then there's the idiots who know better.

Lets be honest here, you've griped since the day she wasn't taken one, just as you griped about your son's Universal Credit. She was the IDEAL candidate, the best thing that they could have taken on. Give yourself a shake. If she was that good she would have been first on the list, not way down on page 327. If it isn't done your way, all we hear is you screaming from the roof tops... who do you think knows better? Govt depts supported by experts or you? Its not a tough question.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			Your funny

Not going to comment on the political measures they actually took(ie not a lot) and how they long they take to filter tho to test results, as not allowed to speak no evil political but what you say above isn't quite true

Click to expand...

What the scientists showed back then was simply what the mathematics of unhindered or unmitigated exponential growth with a period of 7 days results in.  They were very clear that that was NOT their prediction of what could happen - but what mathematics said WOULD happen without measures being in place to change the basis of the mathematics.  

The doubling period for viral infection exponential growth may at the moment be a lot more than 7 days...but the mathematics will show what WILL happen if virus infection continues in the manner we would expect of it and without further dampening measures being applied.  Exponential growth WILL happen - and we have seen from the scientists what that can mean.


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## garyinderry (Oct 12, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe if you were asthmatic you might understand

I suffer from varying degrees - and many times I can’t wear a mask for more than a minute before I start to struggle .

I have extra protection in regards my medication but right now it’s not great when people point and hollow at you for not wearing a mask - the “mask police “ are getting worse

I would hope people would be a bit more understanding of everyone’s situation
		
Click to expand...



Have you tried a visor ?  


I wear glasses and steam up in my mask.  I've learned to slow my pace down and breath slowly.  Trying to charge around like normal isnt possible or I cant see where I'm going.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If you believe those are pertinent you need your head read. You've written assumptions based on what?

Your wife was deemed not acceptable, whatever your cuddly MP said, otherwise she would have been employed.

But lets talk about this training course you think she, and a lot of others, should have had, way before the need was identified, based on your scenario. 'X' number of T&T's trained on the off chance they might be needed. Great waste of money if your scenario hadn't come to fruition. Money that the UK has been directing towards keeping people in jobs. And if the UK had adopted the rules put in place, as Sweden did, do you think the spike would be as big? I watch here from Spain, and listen to many expats who have come out for the winter. The size of the spike you're seeing is down to the plethora of idiots there are who believe they know better, you being one of them.

Even today I read about how stupid the multi-level lockdowns are. The UK has mirrored the options taken by many countries around the world. Some of those countries have taken on board the lockdowns sensibly, but then there's the idiots who know better.

Lets be honest here, you've griped since the day she wasn't taken one, just as you griped about your son's Universal Credit. She was the IDEAL candidate, the best thing that they could have taken on. Give yourself a shake. If she was that good she would have been first on the list, not way down on page 327. If it isn't done your way, all we hear is you screaming from the roof tops... who do you think knows better? Govt depts supported by experts or you? Its not a tough question.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough.  She's not required then she is.  She simply pointed out that if she could have been required, then maybe a little bit of prep or advising her that she was on a 'bank' or reserve list would have been sensible.  That's all.  As she is no longer available or interested it matters not.   Anyway - given the current hit rate of T&T I think much new recruitment will be ongoing.

And a waste of money?  To train such as her - let's say 10hrs training...that would be £200 they'd pay her to do on-line training courses and genning up on procedures.  Yup.  Not affordable.

I 'griped' about my son's UC on the basis of earnings earned but not paid.  And argued that as there were many relaxations being applied for many, and many much better off than those being forced onto UC - then a once-off relaxation in respect of 'earnings due' could be applied for those being forced to go onto UC at very short notice.  In the great scheme of things the amounts would have been insignificant compared with what has since been doled out - but we all know that those on UC should consider themselves 'fortunate'.  Anyway that too is all passed. Though many going onto UC in the coming weeks and months will find themselves similarly hit.

Just as those on the minimum wage should not now be complaining about government shutting down their work and their income - and being generous enough to fund 66% of the little they get.  Yes - they should consider themselves fortunate - well they can go on to UC if they are so skint.

BTW - to which plethora of idiots do I belong?  Those that think they know better and act upon it - or those who think they might know better but understand what is right, and so don't act upon what they might want to do.  I know what plethora I am in.


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## GB72 (Oct 12, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Have you tried a visor ? 


I wear glasses and steam up in my mask.  I've learned to slow my pace down and breath slowly.  Trying to charge around like normal isnt possible or I cant see where I'm going.
		
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I have ordered one of those rubber frames that go inside the mask to keep it away from your mouth and nostrils to allow a bit more room inside to breath. Will see how that works.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 12, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t have a “fear” of masks , at times my breathing feels restricted by the mask so I don’t wear it until it eases off - have even been to seen my doctor who has also advised others have had the issues. I try and wear a mask whenever I can . And i also had zero issues when I had to wear a respirator during exercises.

Everyone is different but right now the mask police appear to have given themselves the authority to shout at people
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully the jobsworths while they’re shouting at people they are maintaining social distancing, they are using the masks properly, not touching them once on, washed their hands before and after application and not removed until home. 

I bet 98% don’t and pray they infect themselves with their filthy,  infected, covid and faecal covered hands.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 12, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			Have you tried a visor ? 


I wear glasses and steam up in my mask.  I've learned to slow my pace down and breath slowly.  Trying to charge around like normal isnt possible or I cant see where I'm going.
		
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I was looking at someone in a visor and it seemed to me that it is good for protecting against direct breath droplets but not from airborne as air is easily drawn in from the bottom and sides, surely they need a mask to be worn as well.


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## Ethan (Oct 12, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t have a “fear” of masks , at times my breathing feels restricted by the mask so I don’t wear it until it eases off - have even been to seen my doctor who has also advised others have had the issues. *I try and wear a mask whenever I can *. And i also had zero issues when I had to wear a respirator during exercises.

Everyone is different but right now the mask police appear to have given themselves the authority to shout at people
		
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OK, fair enough. I don't shout, speak or glare at people who don't wear them. I just silently disapprove.


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## Slab (Oct 12, 2020)

I’m not going to pretend no one here has asthma but its nice to know they can all seemingly cope with wearing a mask (either that or they’re just not going out) 
Although it might have something to do with the different rules too; During the time the virus was live if you didn't wear a mask you’re not getting on that bus/taxi, you won’t get in that shop & you cant go out in public without risking a fine

There’s no option to self-exclude yourself from wearing a mask, as a result everyone was wearing masks or didn't go out


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## DRW (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What the scientists showed back then was simply what the mathematics of unhindered or unmitigated exponential growth with a period of 7 days results in.  They were very clear that that was NOT their prediction of what could happen - but what mathematics said WOULD happen without measures being in place to change the basis of the mathematics.

The doubling period for viral infection exponential growth may at the moment be a lot more than 7 days...but the mathematics will show what WILL happen if virus infection continues in the manner we would expect of it and without further dampening measures being applied.  Exponential growth WILL happen - and we have seen from the scientists what that can mean.
		
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I know it wasn't a prediction. I believe I posted that in my original post. 

Do you happen to know the currently doubling time and do you think it will get faster or slower over time or stay the same, interested to hear ? and do you think the models or examples so far pushed forwarded by the scientists have been very reliable in the eyes of the public?

It undermines the path and the value of science and data and their voices, as I have heard the stories about the boy that cried wolf, too many times.... I am worried about the results of the actions being taken on other deaths and poverty etc


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## road2ruin (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			It undermines the path and the value of science and data and their voices, as I have heard the stories about the boy that cried wolf, too many times.... I am worried about the results of the actions being taken on other deaths and poverty etc
		
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I would tend to agree with this. Throughout this episode, starting with the prediction of 250,000 dead by Neil Ferguson, the government have gone with the worst case scenario and each time (fortunately) it has been no where near what is projected could happen. I think people have now grown wary of the scare stories and now the assumption is that all of the figures are over egged and highly unlikely to happen.


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## Old Skier (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fair enough.  She's not required then she is.  She simply pointed out that if she could have been required, then maybe a little bit of prep or advising her that she was on a 'bank' or reserve list would have been sensible.  That's all.  As she is no longer available or interested it matters not.   Anyway - given the current hit rate of T&T I think much new recruitment will be ongoing.

And a waste of money?  To train such as her - let's say 10hrs training...that would be £200 they'd pay her to do on-line training courses and genning up on procedures.  Yup.  Not affordable.

I 'griped' about my son's UC on the basis of earnings earned but not paid.  And argued that as there were many relaxations being applied for many, and many much better off than those being forced onto UC - then a once-off relaxation in respect of 'earnings due' could be applied for those being forced to go onto UC at very short notice.  In the great scheme of things the amounts would have been insignificant compared with what has since been doled out - but we all know that those on UC should consider themselves 'fortunate'.  Anyway that too is all passed. Though many going onto UC in the coming weeks and months will find themselves similarly hit.

Just as those on the minimum wage should not now be complaining about government shutting down their work and their income - and being generous enough to fund 66% of the little they get.  Yes - they should consider themselves fortunate - well they can go on to UC if they are so skint.

BTW - to which plethora of idiots do I belong?  Those that think they know better and act upon it - or those who think they might know better but understand what is right, and so don't act upon what they might want to do.  I know what plethora I am in.
		
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The military weren’t involved in T&T now they are, things change, get over it. They are also being used to go door to door offering free test kits and getting abused by some of the public at the same time. They shrug their shoulders smile and get on with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

DRW said:



			I know it wasn't a prediction. I believe I posted that in my original post. 

Do you happen to know the currently doubling time and do you think it will get faster or slower over time or stay the same, interested to hear ? and do you think the models or examples so far pushed forwarded by the scientists have been very reliable in the eyes of the public?

It undermines the path and the value of science and data and their voices, as I have heard the stories about the boy that cried wolf, too many times.... I am worried about the results of the actions being taken on other deaths and poverty etc
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately many DO point to what the mathematics said as a prediction of what is likely to happen in reality - and then use that deliberate misinterpretation as a basis upon which to rubbish further and current estimates that are being provided.  I can't critisise anyone for perhaps not understanding what was presented when they are listening to those who choose or mistakenly misinterpret and misrepresent a simple illustration of exponential growth.

I don't know what the current doubling period is - but I imagine that the estimate that epidemiologists make is not simply based upon the numbers of positive tests.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The military weren’t involved in T&T now they are, things change, get over it. They are also being used to go door to door offering free test kits and getting abused by some of the public at the same time. They shrug their shoulders smile and get on with it.
		
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Again - you really don't need to have a go at me...


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## Old Skier (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Again - you really don't need to have a go at me...

Click to expand...

Who’s having a go, just responding.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Who’s having a go, just responding.
		
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...things change, get over it.

(that's a quote btw  )


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## Old Skier (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...things change, get over it.

(that's a quote btw  )
		
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I know and I have.


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## KenL (Oct 12, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Ours in Argyll went on holiday Friday 2nd so we're half way through.
Dont quite get this, I think summer holidays for scottish state schools all follow the same 6 or 7 weeks, yet the October fortnight holiday can be any 2 weeks in October depending on where you live. 
Rumours a while ago were there'd be a 2 week circuit breaker during school October holidays (kids at home so good time to do it) until people realised the above!
		
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They are all over the place which is nuts.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fair enough.  She's not required then she is.  She simply pointed out that if she could have been required, then maybe a little bit of prep or advising her that she was on a 'bank' or reserve list would have been sensible.  That's all.  As she is no longer available or interested it matters not.   Anyway - given the current hit rate of T&T I think much new recruitment will be ongoing.

And a waste of money?  To train such as her - let's say 10hrs training...that would be £200 they'd pay her to do on-line training courses and genning up on procedures.  Yup.  Not affordable.
		
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Or to look at it another way, they have saved £200 by not training someone who is no longer available to fill the role. Multiply that by however many thousands of other people are in the same situation and it adds up to a decent amount that can be spent elsewhere. 

You'd be the first to complain about the government wasting money if they'd trained 20000 people at £200 per head and then hadn't used them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or to look at it another way, they have saved £200 by not training someone who is no longer available to fill the role. Multiply that by however many thousands of other people are in the same situation and it adds up to a decent amount that can be spent elsewhere.

You'd be the first to complain about the government wasting money if they'd trained 20000 people at £200 per head and then hadn't used them.
		
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Except that just about all the experts - certainly in the medical community - were pretty darned sure they'd need to expand the system come October to cope with a second wave of infections...and if you know something is likely to happen and the impact of it happening is significant - then you consider money spent as a risk mitigation to be money well spent - and so you spend it.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except that just about all the experts - certainly in the medical community - were pretty darned sure they'd need to expand the system come October to cope with a second wave of infections...and if you know something is likely to happen and the impact of it happening is significant - then you consider money spent as a risk mitigation to be money well spent - and so you spend it.
		
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How is it "risk mitigation" to train your wife for a role in July/August that they didn't need her for at that point and that now they do need her she is no longer available? They are almost certainly working through a list of names and will train the ones that are needed and available and that's not your wife. Yes they knew that in all likelihood they would have to expand the system in October and that's what they are doing. Why waste money training people in July or August for jobs in October that they might no longer be free to take up? Are you seriously trying to suggest that if your wife had been trained 3 or 4 months ago then she would have waited for however long it took for her to get a call from T & T and she wouldn't have looked for other work if she hadn't heard after 3 months?


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## Mudball (Oct 12, 2020)

Looks like covid protocol for dental treatments may require dentist to leave a window open even when doing non-aerosol treatments.  So along with their PPE, they will dressed as eskimos.  Mrs has already put in a petition to update her wardrobe.  Atleast i m saving money by wearing PJs everyday while i WFH


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## Imurg (Oct 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Looks like covid protocol for dental treatments may require dentist to leave a window open even when doing non-aerosol treatments.  So along with their PPE, they will dressed as eskimos.  Mrs has already put in a petition to update her wardrobe.  Atleast i m saving money by wearing PJs everyday while i WFH
		
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Been wrapping up for a couple of weeks now...it'll be full winter gear with woolly hat and gloves soon..


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 12, 2020)

Seems SAGE are saying the test and trace system is having a marginal impact on the spread. Which is a little depressing as I was under the impression that was a sound way to try and contain the spread. Oh well, I'll keep using the app anyway.


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## Ethan (Oct 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems SAGE are saying the test and trace system is having a marginal impact on the spread. Which is a little depressing as I was under the impression that was a sound way to try and contain the spread. Oh well, I'll keep using the app anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Test and trace is usually a key way of controlling a pandemic but the current version is a disaster. Shoulda let local PHE do it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			How is it "risk mitigation" to train your wife for a role in July/August that they didn't need her for at that point and that now they do need her she is no longer available? They are almost certainly working through a list of names and will train the ones that are needed and available and that's not your wife. Yes they knew that in all likelihood they would have to expand the system in October and that's what they are doing. Why waste money training people in July or August for jobs in October that they might no longer be free to take up? Are you seriously trying to suggest that if your wife had been trained 3 or 4 months ago then she would have waited for however long it took for her to get a call from T & T and she wouldn't have looked for other work if she hadn't heard after 3 months?
		
Click to expand...

You have individuals cleared, on boarded, trained up and on a ‘bank’ - ready to work immediately the need arises.  Yes - some might have taken up other work but many would have just made themselves available if needed. without that you have a delay.

But that’s simply what you’d do in a risk mitigation analysis.  The risk and risk mitigation are both clearly defined.  The risk likelihood is assessed.  The cost of the risk mitigation is worked out.  You decide whether the impact of the risk were it to happen is worth the cost of the mitigation activity and act accordingly.  Not rocket science.  

Maybe that has happened and there is a bank of trained individuals waiting to be called upon. Or maybe T&T is now reacting and calling up individuals who previously expressed an interest to get them cleared and trained up - that being the T&T contingency plan.


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## pendodave (Oct 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems SAGE are saying the test and trace system is having a marginal impact on the spread. Which is a little depressing as I was under the impression that was a sound way to try and contain the spread. Oh well, I'll keep using the app anyway.
		
Click to expand...

The disease is endemic
A significant proportion of those who have it are asymptomatic or have symptons so mild they don't get tested
Those who have it will almost certainly infect their household before they know it
I genuinely think that t&t wouldn't help much in our current situation even if it was done perfectly. The mistake is thinking it might and pinning so much hope on it.


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## bobmac (Oct 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As she is no longer available or interested it matters not.
		
Click to expand...

And yet, still you argue and criticise.
If it matters not, move on.

_''You're only here for a short visit. Don't hurry, don't worry. And be sure to smell the flowers along the way.''
Walter Hagen_


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Test and trace is usually a key way of controlling a pandemic but the current version is a disaster. Shoulda let local PHE do it.
		
Click to expand...

Oh well, as long as we are not getting distracted by issues that can easily be dealt with later once we have got on top of Covid and learn lessons from this I'm sure it will be fine.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 13, 2020)

Junior Shark tested positive at university as expected but it already feeling OK.  But she is playing by the rules and self-isolating.  Will order her a new PlayStation game and send it up as a little reward.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 13, 2020)

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/10/golf-club-manager-hits-out-at-new-covid-restrictions/


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## IanM (Oct 13, 2020)

When we get the "experts" to agree a course of action it will be much easier!   

Meanwhile Covid impacting still, my mum is back in hospital, not allowed to visit.  She's not in good shape.

I am only allowed to play golf in Monmouthshire (or in England) and not travel into Newport. 

Just signed a 12 month contract extension, although (see Retirement thread) I am probably going to chuck it in between Xmas and end of the Financial Year!  Still working from home and quids in due to lack of travel and accommodation expenses... the one bright spark in a sea of cobblers!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2020)

Just listened to someone on the Radio from the WHO, he was saying countries should try to find alternatives to total lockdown wherever possible and he thought the UK were doing well in their efforts to tackle the virus. He said people here should not think they are in a worse situation than many other countries.


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## Billysboots (Oct 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			And yet, still you argue and criticise.
If it matters not, move on.
		
Click to expand...

I’m so glad someone has said it at long last!


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Just listened to someone on the Radio from the WHO, he was saying countries should try to find alternatives to total lockdown wherever possible and he thought the UK were doing well in their efforts to tackle the virus. He said people here should not think they are in a worse situation than many other countries.
		
Click to expand...

Roger Daltrey gets around 🙄🤔


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2020)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2020)

bobmac said:



			And yet, still you argue and criticise.
If it matters not, move on.

_''You're only here for a short visit. Don't hurry, don't worry. And be sure to smell the flowers along the way.''
Walter Hagen_

Click to expand...

In this I simply observe.  And as has been mentioned - we have a T&T system that is not making any significant difference - and I guess that we are all concerned with that as we might all be impacted by it falling short of the mark set for it.  As has been demonstrated elsewhere - that need not have been the case.  It was always going to be difficult - but it need not have been the case.  

However I am sure that a review once we have this under control will identify where it could have been done better, and a revised system will be put in place.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In this I simply observe.  And as has been mentioned - we have a T&T system that is not making any significant difference - and I guess that we are all concerned with that as we might all be impacted by it falling short of the mark set for it.  As has been demonstrated elsewhere - that need not have been the case.  It was always going to be difficult - but it need not have been the case.

However I am sure that a review once we have this under control will identify where it could have been done better, and a revised system will be put in place.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know the T&T system isn't making any difference.  A very large part of the country has fairly low infection rates, maybe the system is helping there. Do you have some evidence it's not making a difference in the North, maybe it would be much worse without it.  Track and Trace can't cannot change people's behaviour and that's what needs changing to make a real difference.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Roger Daltrey gets around 🙄🤔
		
Click to expand...

OK Smarty pants 'World Health Organisation'  🙄😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How do you know the T&T system isn't making any difference.  A very large part of the country has fairly low infection rates, maybe the system is helping there. Do you have some evidence it's not making a difference in the North, maybe it would be much worse without it.  Track and Trace can't cannot change people's behaviour and that's what needs changing to make a real difference.
		
Click to expand...

See @HK post #9864 from which I quote...

_Seems SAGE are saying the test and trace system is having a marginal impact on the spread. Which is a little depressing as I was under the impression that was a sound way to try and contain the spread. _

And for backup of that assertion of @HKs which you might choose to dismiss...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ce-having-marginal-impact-tackling-virus.html


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## SaintHacker (Oct 13, 2020)

Ah yes, the daily mail. Thats gospel then...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Ah yes, the daily mail. Thats gospel then...
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - many seem to have sworn by it in the past as their trusted source of accurate information on quite complex matters...

However maybe it is best to quote directly from the SAGE paper of 21st September *S0769 Summary of the effectiveness and harms of different non-pharmaceutical interventions *

_An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future. _


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## Ethan (Oct 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			See @HK post #9864 from which I quote...

_Seems SAGE are saying the test and trace system is having a marginal impact on the spread. Which is a little depressing as I was under the impression that was a sound way to try and contain the spread. _

Click to expand...

Test and Trace is a sound, indeed essential, way to control a pandemic. But if it being totally cocked up ......


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - many seem to have sworn by it in the past as their trusted source of accurate information on quite complex matters...

However maybe it is best to quote directly from the SAGE paper of 21st September *S0769 Summary of the effectiveness and harms of different non-pharmaceutical interventions *

_An effective test, trace and isolate (TTI) system is important to reduce the incidence of infections in the community. Estimates of the effectiveness of this system on R are difficult to ascertain. The relatively low levels of engagement with the system (comparing ONS incidence estimates with NHS Test and Trace numbers) coupled with testing delays and likely poor rates of adherence with self-isolation suggests that this system is having a marginal impact on transmission at the moment. Unless the system grows at the same rate as the epidemic, and support is given to people to enable them to adhere to self-isolation, it is likely that the impact of Test, Trace and Isolate will further decline in the future. _

Click to expand...

But other than a direct quote from the SAGE scientists, purveyors of the science that the government tell us they are following, sometimes, where is your proof SAGE said what you quoted they said?


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## Ethan (Oct 13, 2020)

As an aside, it is interesting that one of the objections to some interventions, pharmacological or otherwise, is that there is no evidence of effectiveness. I would argue out that evidence can sometimes be replaced by common sense. 

There is no randomised controlled trial showing that having a parachute is more effective than not having one for people who fall out of planes, but a small degree of common sense seems adequate here. Likewise, some interventions for Covid that carry little downside and seem to obviously offer a benefit should not generally be too strongly opposed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But other than a direct quote from the SAGE scientists, purveyors of the science that the government tell us they are following, sometimes, where is your proof SAGE said what you quoted they said?
		
Click to expand...

Damn it.  Well...maybe linking to the UK Gov website where you can find the paper moves things in the 'proof' direction

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...harmaceutical-interventions-16-september-2020


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			See @HK post #9864 from which I quote...

_Seems SAGE are saying the test and trace system is having a marginal impact on the spread. Which is a little depressing as I was under the impression that was a sound way to try and contain the spread. _

And for backup of that assertion of @HKs which you might choose to dismiss...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ce-having-marginal-impact-tackling-virus.html

Click to expand...

That doesn't address the points I made. How can you show the current system is not making a difference based on  how many of the population are using it.  If people don't use it then it can't help.

I also said that T&T can't change people's attitude or the way they conduct themselves and IMO this is the underpinning reason for the increased infections.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That doesn't address the points I made. How can you show the current system is not making a difference based on  how many of the population are using it.  If people don't use it then it can't help.

I also said that T&T can't change people's attitude or the way they conduct themselves and IMO this is the underpinning reason for the increased infections.
		
Click to expand...

Whatever the reason or reasons - and the SAGE paper cites a few - their opinion is that it is only having a marginal impact on transmission.  Of course we can all have our own views, however on this I tend to accept the analysis and conclusions of SAGE - and their view is that it is not simply lack of public engagement.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 13, 2020)

A number of posts are sailing close to the Political wind and I’ve binned a couple of Not so subtle ones.

Please watch what you post
Thank you


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 13, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Roger Daltrey gets around 🙄🤔
		
Click to expand...

He is great for seeking advice on a whole range of matters as he is just giving it all away.


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## huds1475 (Oct 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			As an aside, it is interesting that one of the objections to some interventions, pharmacological or otherwise, is that there is no evidence of effectiveness. I would argue out that evidence can sometimes be replaced by common sense.

There is no randomised controlled trial showing that having a parachute is more effective than not having one for people who fall out of planes, but a small degree of common sense seems adequate here. Likewise, some interventions for Covid that carry little downside and seem to obviously offer a benefit should not generally be too strongly opposed.
		
Click to expand...

LOL. 

Excellent analogy.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 13, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			He is great for seeking advice on a whole range of matters as he is just giving it all away.
		
Click to expand...

I though he would have died before he got old.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I though he would have died before he got old.
		
Click to expand...

He’s deaf!
That bloody squeezebox.


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## road2ruin (Oct 14, 2020)

All this talk of a ‘circuit break’ and how it is essential that we have one implemented to help slow the virus however SAGE admit that a 14 day lockdown will put the virus back by 28 days. Assuming we do press ahead with this break are we then saying that every 4 weeks we need to have a 2 week break ad infinitum? Seems a waste of time imo.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			All this talk of a ‘circuit break’ and how it is essential that we have one implemented to help slow the virus however SAGE admit that a 14 day lockdown will put the virus back by 28 days. Assuming we do press ahead with this break are we then saying that every 4 weeks we need to have a 2 week break ad infinitum? Seems a waste of time imo.
		
Click to expand...

Should have gone for a 2 month shutdown, then go hell for leather over Christmas & New Year with clubs, pubs restaurants all open. 

Plus, those 2 months get all the current crazy traffic back off the roads 😏


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## User62651 (Oct 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			All this talk of a ‘circuit break’ and how it is essential that we have one implemented to help slow the virus however SAGE admit that a 14 day lockdown will put the virus back by 28 days. Assuming we do press ahead with this break are we then saying that every 4 weeks we need to have a 2 week break ad infinitum? Seems a waste of time imo.
		
Click to expand...

Fair comment. I think the only workable tactic these days is to prevent ICU capacities being exceeded, that's what the original lockdown was about and it did prevent that. That's about all we can really control. 
Lockdowns just delay, they don't fix. Also so many people now just don't accept the rules, rebelling either intentionally or through indifference. Population tried hard lockdown and saw it fails as soon as you come out of it so think it's pointless.
Effective test and trace with 100% of population onboard or vaccine needed, nothing else will do. I think maybe 20% of people here strictly follow the rules, many think they do but in reality don't.

No answer currently. 
Herd immunity by stealth?


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			He’s deaf!
That bloody squeezebox.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but that was his generation ...  (that's it for me, I don't know any other titles)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

Absolute bellends

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316130417305677826


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## pauljames87 (Oct 14, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			All this talk of a ‘circuit break’ and how it is essential that we have one implemented to help slow the virus however SAGE admit that a 14 day lockdown will put the virus back by 28 days. Assuming we do press ahead with this break are we then saying that every 4 weeks we need to have a 2 week break ad infinitum? Seems a waste of time imo.
		
Click to expand...

I have had a hypothesis for a while that circuit breakers are going to be used every school holiday 

GCSE and a levels have been pushed back 3 weeks next year 

My thinking is half term coming up normally 1 week. 2 week circuit
Xmas 2 week circuit 

Feb half term 
Easter 
May half term 

All breakers 

In-between terms which would become 5-6 weeks instead 6-7 would be when the economy would regrow as much as possible .. or limp through as it were..

The 2 weeks each time would reset the balance allow the NHS not to go overwhelmed etc etc

Basically kick the can down the road .. and again.. and again until it's summer time and like last summer the increase in weather allows for the more freedom with less spreading .. and ofc hope by then science has come up with a vaccine 

Life is never going back to the way it was so maybe this will be the "new normal" who knows 

That's just my hypothesis anyways


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolute bellends

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316130417305677826

Click to expand...

But again I'd ask what are the root causes to why they are behaving like this.  Are they all being thrown out at 10pm onto the streets at the same time and it's the last time young people who get one chance at university will be able to go out for a while? Why do they feel it will not effect them?  

I mostly feel '_well what did we expect would happen?_' when I see this kind if thing.  Yes it is irresponsible to a certain extent, but to me there is a big danger of the narrative being 'it's all their fault'. And if we do not address why this is happening, it will happen in other cities, it will get posted on social media, people will get angry but nothing will change.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I have had a hypothesis for a while t*hat circuit breakers are going to be used every school holiday*

GCSE and a levels have been pushed back 3 weeks next year

My thinking is half term coming up normally 1 week. 2 week circuit
Xmas 2 week circuit

Feb half term
Easter
May half term

All breakers

In-between terms which would become 5-6 weeks instead 6-7 would be when the economy would regrow as much as possible .. or limp through as it were..

The 2 weeks each time would reset the balance allow the NHS not to go overwhelmed etc etc

Basically kick the can down the road .. and again.. and again until it's summer time and like last summer the increase in weather allows for the more freedom with less spreading .. and ofc hope by then science has come up with a vaccine

Life is never going back to the way it was so maybe this will be the "new normal" who knows

That's just my hypothesis anyways
		
Click to expand...

One challenge could be that if people know a lockdown type circuit breaker is coming up on a regular then they will kind of over compensate for this before it happens. And you'll end up with stupid panic buying, people crowding into bars and restaurants before hand etc etc. Plus for a lot of people that would effectively be saying to them you can not have any holidays if you have kids at schools, assuming a circuit breaker will involve no unnecessary travel. So parents would start taking kids out of schools at a time when they desperately need to be there to catch up, leading to all sorts of other issues. This is why I think the government are currently not saying people can't travel, as it will decimate the tourist/holiday industry with no school holiday holidays so to speak.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 14, 2020)

All this graphs and projections - the one we need is the point at which this thread passes the Random Irritations thread for the most posts.


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## DRW (Oct 14, 2020)

I hope stuff like this gets more and more coverage, as it so much of the 'picture' that we are painting by our current actions and the harsh decisions being made on behalf of some people:-


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316058573907075073
We need to look at the big picture and not just the covid picture.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But again I'd ask what are the root causes to why they are behaving like this.  Are they all being thrown out at 10pm onto the streets at the same time and it's the last time young people who get one chance at university will be able to go out for a while? Why do they feel it will not effect them? 

I mostly feel '_well what did we expect would happen?_' when I see this kind if thing.  Yes it is irresponsible to a certain extent, but to me there is a big danger of the narrative being 'it's all their fault'. And if we do not address why this is happening, it will happen in other cities, it will get posted on social media, people will get angry but nothing will change.
		
Click to expand...

Because of the way Covid is being publicised, look at Uni’s, people should be horrified at the amount of cases, but instead of horror, it’s “oh, what about our fees” or “poor kids locked up” ie, the message we are getting is it’s not a problem to the young, therefore why should the young behave.
The attitude has now changed to, “I’m not at high risk, so lock up those that are”

People with covid should be made to feel like lepers, not wear it as a badge of honour.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Because of the way Covid is being publicised, look at Uni’s, *people should be horrified* at the amount of cases, but instead of horror, it’s “oh, what about our fees” or “poor kids locked up” ie, the message we are getting is it’s not a problem to the young, therefore why should the young behave.
The attitude has now changed to, “I’m not at high risk, so lock up those that are”

People with covid should be made to feel like lepers, not wear it as a badge of honour.
		
Click to expand...

Again that is a subjective statement.  Some may well say that fees are very important to them, some may say the mental health of kids is very important and over rides the very slim chance that they will have any lasting health consequences if they catch it.  It's all about perceptions, i can see both sides of it and think that there should be a balance, yes youngsters should be (more) considerate but at the same time those that are vulnerable may need to take extra precautions until a vaccine is found. And compromises will have to be made o both sides.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			One challenge could be that if people know a lockdown type circuit breaker is coming up on a regular then they will kind of over compensate for this before it happens. And you'll end up with stupid panic buying, people crowding into bars and restaurants before hand etc etc. Plus for a lot of people that would effectively be saying to them you can not have any holidays if you have kids at schools, assuming a circuit breaker will involve no unnecessary travel. So parents would start taking kids out of schools at a time when they desperately need to be there to catch up, leading to all sorts of other issues. This is why I think the government are currently not saying people can't travel, as it will decimate the tourist/holiday industry with no school holiday holidays so to speak.
		
Click to expand...

In my opinion and mine alone

You can't legislate for the great unwashed being morons.

If it's planned in advance u could in theory have everything set out planned so you get no panic buying, no rushing into bars etc

You say to people right guys it's 2 weeks that's it.. then your back again 

I see the changes ATM and the rushing to bars. Panic buying as uncertainty as once in restrictions there is no end in sight 

On the subject of holidays I'm withdrawing from that debate as my view on people's need to travel are against the grain and biased so I can't give a fair and balanced view


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



*One challenge could be that if people know a lockdown type circuit breaker is coming up on a regular then they will kind of over compensate for this before it happens. And you'll end up with stupid panic buying, people crowding into bars and restaurants before hand etc etc. *Plus for a lot of people that would effectively be saying to them you can not have any holidays if you have kids at schools, assuming a circuit breaker will involve no unnecessary travel. So parents would start taking kids out of schools at a time when they desperately need to be there to catch up, leading to all sorts of other issues. This is why I think the government are currently not saying people can't travel, as it will decimate the tourist/holiday industry with no school holiday holidays so to speak.
		
Click to expand...

Seems to me a bit like what addicts in recovery, but who have relapsed one or more times, will tell you - the relapses always get worse...and so yes - I can imagine a similar scenario every time restrictions are lifted...if we go into (or expect to go into) a sequence of circuit-break restrictions, then every time the restrictions are lifted there is a risk that the breaches of the basic rules gets worse...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			In my opinion and mine alone

You can't legislate for the great unwashed being morons.

If it's planned in advance u could in theory have everything set out planned so you get no panic buying, no rushing into bars etc

You say to people right guys it's 2 weeks that's it.. then your back again

I see the changes ATM and the rushing to bars. Panic buying as uncertainty as once in restrictions there is no end in sight

On the subject of holidays I'm withdrawing from that debate as my view on people's need to travel are against the grain and biased so I can't give a fair and balanced view
		
Click to expand...

Why keep blaming the “great unwashed” as you call them? Plenty of evidence it is Intelligent people in all levels of society that have ignored the rules.

People with money and status believing the rules don’t apply to them.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why keep blaming the “great unwashed” as you call them? Plenty of evidence it is Intelligent people in all levels of society that have ignored the rules.

People with money and status believing the rules don’t apply to them.
		
Click to expand...

Having money and status doesnt automatically mean they are intelligent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Trying to work out how we sort things for my BiL to get to us to 'house/cat-sit' while we are away for a week - whilst adhering absolutely to the new restrictions.  It is not easy - and it would be easy for us to say 'oh what the hell...'

But we are absolutely not doing that - for things that would normally be very straightforward and that in the current circumstances we _could _consider to be low risk in respect of transmission.  However I can imagine some taking a different view.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Again that is a subjective statement.  Some may well say that fees are very important to them, some may say the mental health of kids is very important and over rides the very slim chance that they will have any lasting health consequences if they catch it.  It's all about perceptions, i can see both sides of it and think that there should be a balance, yes youngsters should be (more) considerate but at the same time those that are vulnerable may need to take extra precautions until a vaccine is found. And compromises will have to be made o both sides.
		
Click to expand...

No doubt the fees are important and far less than mental health, but this wave has started with the return to education, why not put education back for 6-12 months, call it an enforced “gap year” if you will or made sure every subject was available online etc.

I keep hearing how important the education is, but why not take the break and raise school leaving age to 17 for a 5-10yr period so kids and the Country could recover.

If it was done as one, nobody would miss out.

I don’t know how much more the vulnerable can give when you start with nothing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Having money and status doesnt automatically mean they are intelligent.
		
Click to expand...

So who are the “great unwashed” you speak off? As it’s certainly a derogatory term aimed at the lowest in society.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So who are the “great unwashed” you speak off? As it’s certainly a derogatory term aimed at the lowest in society.
		
Click to expand...

Take a look at your own post from 08:44 on this very thread if you are unsure.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Take a look at your own post from 08:44 on this very thread if you are unsure.
		
Click to expand...

You mean those bellends in the video who you’ve decided are working class thicko’s? They sound more like students from the Uni’s, ie, intelligent young people who should know better to me.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You mean those bellends in the video who you’ve decided are working class thicko’s? They sound more like students from the Uni’s, ie, intelligent young people who should know better to me.
		
Click to expand...

And what about the masses who gathered after the title win? For both Liverpool and Leeds as not to focus entirely on one city 

All students who should know better? 

Going to uni does not make you intelligent. The ones out there are not the intelligent ones. Those are inside doing the right thing.

The morons are out from all areas.

Like I said. You can make all the rules in the world but without proper enforcement the great unwashed . Or the general public. Or anyone you want to class as. Will break it... Not everyone. But enough for issues to still appear.

Do you not see the irony in taking offence at the great unwashed but at the same time using b**lend to describe a group of people you think are idiots?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Hearing that local secondaries are breaking up for mid-term early next week - so that teachers can prepare for remote teaching...have they been primed...?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			And what about the masses who gathered after the title win? For both Liverpool and Leeds as not to focus entirely on one city

All students who should know better?

Going to uni does not make you intelligent. The ones out there are not the intelligent ones. Those are inside doing the right thing.

The morons are out from all areas.

Like I said. You can make all the rules in the world but without proper enforcement the great unwashed . Or the general public. Or anyone you want to class as. Will break it... Not everyone. But enough for issues to still appear.

Do you not see the irony in taking offence at the great unwashed but at the same time using b**lend to describe a group of people you think are idiots?
		
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Or those that celebrated VE Day or crowded the beaches or fill Soho or took part in the demonstrations in London etc, they are from all walks of life, intelligence and common sense do not go hand in hand.

The term “the great unwashed” is a derogatory term aimed at one particular part of society and for someone who has your political allegiances you need to give your head a shake.


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## Mudball (Oct 14, 2020)

while the two of you are bickering.. i wanted to check if *pauldj42 and pauljames87 *are the same person....  During lockdown i have starting to myself in third person.. i am guess I may not be the only one...


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## GB72 (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have I read the new NI restrictions correctly? Golf with a different household banned?
		
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That is how I read it.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have I read the new NI restrictions correctly? Golf with a different household banned?
		
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Our clubhouse has shut.
But golf remains the same.
We are in very high category.
So that must be a local government thing.


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## GB72 (Oct 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Our clubhouse has shut.
But golf remains the same.
We are in very high category.
So that must be a local government thing.
		
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This is just he Northern Ireland lockdown. Outdoor sports between more than one household not allowed and that would seem to cross golf of the list except with people you live with


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Our clubhouse has shut.
But golf remains the same.
We are in very high category.
So that must be a local government thing.
		
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I believe that even in Tier3 areas outdoor sport can continue...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

Here’s The England Golf (Not sure if it will differ for NI & Scotland):
https://www.englandgolf.org/downloa...f Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,XOYF,3B8OPO,46QYI,1


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## chellie (Oct 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hearing that local secondaries are breaking up for mid-term early next week - so that teachers can prepare for remote teaching...have they been primed...?
		
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Primed for what exactly?


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why keep blaming the “great unwashed” as you call them? Plenty of evidence it is Intelligent people in all levels of society that have ignored the rules.

People with money and status believing the rules don’t apply to them.
		
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No, they are not intelligent. They might know how to do some clever things, but they aren't intelligent enough to see , if they do just what they want, then we are en route to anarchy, and chaos.
Looking back over the decades, we are heading that way.


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## GB72 (Oct 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I believe that even in Tier3 areas outdoor sport can continue...
		
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As per the post above, this is Northern Ireland only that has just entered a 4 week lockdown. Nothing to do with the Tier system


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## robinthehood (Oct 14, 2020)

Ive been selected for random covid-19 antibody test. They send out a home test kit for me to use. Be intresting, having 2 teenagers at home who have not been the best at social distancing....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, they are not intelligent. They might know how to do some clever things, but they aren't intelligent enough to see , if they do just what they want, then we are en route to anarchy, and chaos.
Looking back over the decades, we are heading that way.
		
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In my opinion some of the people who have ignored the rules/guidelines/laws, ie Politicians, Scientists, Civil Servants, Doctors etc are very intelligent, what they’ve lacked is common sense, a sense of responsibility and are selfish.

Differing opinions are allowed.


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## DRW (Oct 14, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Ive been selected for random covid-19 antibody test. They send out a home test kit for me to use. Be intresting, having 2 teenagers at home who have not been the best at social distancing....
		
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Anybody had any symptoms to date or perhaps reasons to think any of you may have had it ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

chellie said:



			Primed for what exactly?
		
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An extended mid-term break - such as would happen if the government decided in the coming days upon a circuit break of 2-3 weeks (of the sort that those in charge are currently vigorously rejecting) - as that might well require teaching to move on-line/remote.


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## robinthehood (Oct 14, 2020)

DRW said:



			Anybody had any symptoms to date or perhaps reasons to think any of you may have had it ?
		
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No I don't think so, I'm careful with the guidelines etc. My kids a bit less so 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, they are not intelligent. They might know how to do some clever things, but they aren't intelligent enough to see , if they do just what they want, then we are en route to anarchy, and chaos.
Looking back over the decades, we are heading that way.
		
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Oh I think that we know that they _are _intelligent (well they are at least not stupid) - because we know that they can understand very complex matters   This is relatively straightforward.  Living within the constraints in our area is not a matter of intelligence.  We just have to do what we know is the _right _thing to do, rather than what we'd _want _to do.


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## Rooter (Oct 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An extended mid-term break - such as would happen if the government decided in the coming days upon a circuit break of 2-3 weeks (of the sort that those in charge are currently vigorously rejecting) - as that might well require teaching to move on-line/remote.
		
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My kids two schools (primary and secondary) have both outlined their plans for remote learning many, many weeks ago.


Daily assemblies, live lessons, some own paced learning. Find for me and my kids who are lucky enough to have an iPad each, wireless printer on hand, 50mbps wifi. But I know a huge amount of kids that don't have that. They barely get fed properly at home and rely on school dinners as Mr Rashford pointed out recently. 

My point being, what are those not in a position to fully embrace home learning supposed to do??


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## garyinderry (Oct 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is just he Northern Ireland lockdown. Outdoor sports between more than one household not allowed and that would seem to cross golf of the list except with people you live with
		
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I phoned our club and they said golf is continuing as normal.


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## Mudball (Oct 14, 2020)

;



Rooter said:



			My kids two schools (primary and secondary) have both outlined their plans for remote learning many, many weeks ago.


Daily assemblies, live lessons, some own paced learning. Find for me and my kids who are lucky enough to have an iPad each, wireless printer on hand, 50mbps wifi. But I know a huge amount of kids that don't have that. They barely get fed properly at home and rely on school dinners as Mr Rashford pointed out recently.

My point being, what are those not in a position to fully embrace home learning supposed to do??
		
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Unfortunately no one gives a monkeys.. 

PS: How long before you get reported for asking tough political questions?


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 14, 2020)

THE BBC AGAIN - "It's not fair that hospitality is taking the hit'  - well go and have a go at that naughty virus for being so inconsiderate.  Maybe ask it to only affect certain countries or just appear at weekends.


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## road2ruin (Oct 14, 2020)

Rooter said:



			My kids two schools (primary and secondary) have both outlined their plans for remote learning many, many weeks ago.


Daily assemblies, live lessons, some own paced learning. Find for me and my kids who are lucky enough to have an iPad each, wireless printer on hand, 50mbps wifi. But I know a huge amount of kids that don't have that. They barely get fed properly at home and rely on school dinners as Mr Rashford pointed out recently.

My point being, what are those not in a position to fully embrace home learning supposed to do??
		
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It's not just those who are disadvantaged who will suffer. Our daughter is 6yrs old and her birthday is August so is already at a disadvantage given her age, she's also at an age where she can't learn on her own and will need one of us there almost constantly. Unfortunately we cannot do this with our respective careers so whilst we try and muddle through she will get left further behind. We won't be the only case and will happen in numerous years within Primary Schools etc. I guess in Secondary the issue is with those who are less inclined to learn, I would have probably fallen into that category at school, was intelligent enough but did the bear minimum to get through until it got to a point where I had to pull my finger out. If i'd been left to my own devices at school I'm not sure how things would have ended up.


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## Mudball (Oct 14, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			THE *BBC AGAIN *- "It's not fair that hospitality is taking the hit'  - well go and have a go at that naughty virus for being so inconsiderate.  Maybe ask it to only affect certain countries or just appear at weekends.
		
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While i dont say the Beebs does not have its fault, but that is just cherry picking a title.   I am sure you read the whole article, the quote was made by the person being interviewed - who happnens to be a waitress in Hague.. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...86d7ebc898d102e444422c&pinned_post_type=share


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Rooter said:



			My kids two schools (primary and secondary) have both outlined their plans for remote learning many, many weeks ago.


Daily assemblies, live lessons, some own paced learning. Find for me and my kids who are lucky enough to have an iPad each, wireless printer on hand, 50mbps wifi. But I know a huge amount of kids that don't have that. They barely get fed properly at home and rely on school dinners as Mr Rashford pointed out recently.

My point being, what are those not in a position to fully embrace home learning supposed to do??
		
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What I have heard is that this local secondary - covering two large schools - is closing on Tuesday of next week...in advance of half-term - so that teachers can make sure they are fully prepared to go back to remote.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			While i dont say the Beebs does not have its fault, but that is just cherry picking a title.   I am sure you read the whole article, the quote was made by the person being interviewed - who happnens to be a waitress in Hague..
		
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They are the ones who put the title ….. so not cherry picking themselves at all there       Then again, as a journalist, have I ever been guilty of such an act?   Time to cover up my glass house.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 14, 2020)

Scots Gov advises against travelling to Blackpool.


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## robinthehood (Oct 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Gov advises against travelling to Blackpool.
		
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Is that new 🤣


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## GB72 (Oct 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Gov advises against travelling to Blackpool.
		
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I would give that advise covid or not


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## User62651 (Oct 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I would give that advise covid or not 

Click to expand...

Never been however I recall being shocked way back in the 90s when a contractor told me in all seriousness he had driven the family to Blackpool and back *in one day *from Dulnain Bridge (near Aviemore) just for a day out, it was such a great place. Set off at 5am.  Seems to have or had a spell over some of my countrymen.


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## chellie (Oct 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An extended mid-term break - such as would happen if the government decided in the coming days upon a circuit break of 2-3 weeks (of the sort that those in charge are currently vigorously rejecting) - as that might well require teaching to move on-line/remote.
		
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One daughter is a teacher. They will be on there normal two week half term. They've been continually planning for online learning and have already been doing some.


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## chellie (Oct 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots Gov advises against travelling to Blackpool.
		
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That's because we are in or coming up to Scot's fortnight where Blackpool is usually swamped by Scottish visitors.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2020)

Isn't there around a 2 week lag between strict restrictions and the number of deaths going down.  So will a 2 week circuit breaker actually show a reduction in deaths at the end of that 2 weeks?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2020)

chellie said:



			One daughter is a teacher. They will be on there normal two week half term. *They've been continually planning for online learning and have already been doing some.*

Click to expand...

Same in every school, they will have plans in place so they can switch to on line teaching relatively quickly.  Yes it won't be the same quality as face to face, but it will be better than the stuff we saw at the start of the lockdown.

Also the government were doing a scheme where if a bubble went into lockdown then the school got given either an Ipad, Laptop or Chromebook to keep for every disadvantaged child in that bubble.  Not sure if that is still going on, but certainly was the case as my school got quite a few.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 14, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Never been however I recall being shocked way back in the 90s when a contractor told me in all seriousness he had driven the family to Blackpool and back *in one day *from Dulnain Bridge (near Aviemore) just for a day out, it was such a great place. Set off at 5am.  Seems to have or had a spell over some of my countrymen.
		
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Don't remind me.
Towards the end of her life I would take my mum away for weekends to places she had always wanted to visit.
Never seen Blackpool lights she said as my heart dropped.
I'm sure you have says I.
No never been. says she.

Driving along the prom prom prom she says ...do you know you were right I have been here before.

PS Gov advice in place due the stupid Old Firm fans planning to travel down to watch the game on t'telly inda pub.


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## anotherdouble (Oct 14, 2020)

chellie said:



			That's because we are in or coming up to Scot's fortnight where Blackpool is usually swamped by Scottish visitors.
		
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Rangers are playing Celtic I think in Blackpool


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 14, 2020)

Seems herd immunity isn't the answer as the health minister has confirmed it doesn't exist. So where do we go now? 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316086032908070926


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 14, 2020)

chellie said:



			One daughter is a teacher. They will be on there normal two week half term. They've been continually planning for online learning and have already been doing some.
		
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My daughter and wife are teachers .
Daughter has worked all through the pandemic and she really needs a holiday.


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## chellie (Oct 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter and wife are teachers .
Daughter has worked all through the pandemic and she really needs a holiday.
		
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I know mine does as well.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems herd immunity isn't the answer as the health minister has confirmed it doesn't exist. So where do we go now? 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316086032908070926

Click to expand...

Blackpool sounds good.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 14, 2020)

chellie said:



			I know mine does as well.
		
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With us in tier 3 the garden might be the limit.
Just hope the weather picks up a bit.


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## Ethan (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems herd immunity isn't the answer as the health minister has confirmed it doesn't exist. So where do we go now? 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316086032908070926

Click to expand...

She doesn't know what she is talking about. As usual.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2020)

Wales 'closing border' to folks from Tier3 areas on Friday?  How's that going to work...?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-54540764


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## Imurg (Oct 14, 2020)

Another cancelled lesson tomorrow as someone in their year group tests positive so they all isolate...
That's  nearly 200 quids worth in 3 weeks gone....
Luckily we're not relying on my takings...i shudder to think how it's affecting some of the other instructors who are the main earners..


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## fundy (Oct 14, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Another cancelled lesson tomorrow as someone in their year group tests positive so they all isolate...
That's  nearly 200 quids worth in 3 weeks gone....
Luckily we're not relying on my takings...i shudder to think how it's affecting some of the other instructors who are the main earners..
		
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make sure youre still claiming the SEISS!


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## Beezerk (Oct 14, 2020)

Managed to get a test today at short notice, very impressive I must say.
Fingers crossed 🤞


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 14, 2020)

Apparently Birmingham City council have been handing out used Covid 19 test kits.  I don't know what's more unbelievable; that they did it, or that the recipients didn't realise and used them... 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-54539328


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## huds1475 (Oct 14, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Managed to get a test today at short notice, very impressive I must say.
Fingers crossed 🤞
		
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Hope all ok


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## huds1475 (Oct 14, 2020)

Mum has had it for over a week now.

Was pretty bad last Friday, went downhill rapidly over a 2 minute phone call so had to cut it short.

Much better every day now. Is 64 but has slight asthma so a relief she appears to be on the upward curve.

On a downside, working from home is starting to do me in. Feel a little stir crazy!


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## Crazyface (Oct 14, 2020)

Well, finally, I actually know someone who has this damn thing. A woman who me and the wife have known for years, so before you jump all over me for the first statement, yes we are concerned, and worse, she works at our local primary school where our superstar grandson ( he will be on the telly I swear in 15 years) goes to. So he's self isolating. 

We're now officially worried.


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## huds1475 (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Isn't there around a 2 week lag between strict restrictions and the number of deaths going down.
		
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Yes, approximately 



Hacker Khan said:



			So will a 2 week circuit breaker actually show a reduction in deaths at the end of that 2 weeks?
		
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No. There will be a 2 week lag, approximately


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 14, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Managed to get a test today at short notice, very impressive I must say.
Fingers crossed 🤞
		
Click to expand...

I got one Same day on Sunday at 12 noon had my results 10am Monday.
Negative thank god , brilliant service.
Still got a bad cough , getting some very harsh looks.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 14, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wales 'closing border' to folks from Tier3 areas on Friday?  How's that going to work...?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-54540764

Click to expand...

I'm sure some in Wales have been to University 😉


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## Beezerk (Oct 14, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I got one Same day on Sunday at 12 noon had my results 10am Monday.
Negative thank god , brilliant service.
Still got a bad cough , getting some very harsh looks.
		
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Yeah I was similar, booked a test at about 10am for 12.30 the same day.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 14, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Well, finally, I actually know someone who has this damn thing. A woman who me and the wife have known for years, so before you jump all over me for the first statement, yes we are concerned, and worse, she works at our local primary school where our superstar grandson ( he will be on the telly I swear in 15 years) goes to. So he's self isolating.

We're now officially worried.
		
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Hopefully just a precaution and your son will be fine. We've had a good number of staff either confirmed or having to self-isolate (played havoc trying to organise a daily rota) so have known someone with it from the outset. Not a good thing and there has been an element of "could I be next" throughout the unit for months now but to a degree it is something we just have to put to the back of our mind and crack on


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 14, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Seems herd immunity isn't the answer as the health minister has confirmed it doesn't exist. So where do we go now? 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316086032908070926

Click to expand...

Hmmm-  then what is the difference between flu and Covid.  As a nation we have flu with us, and have had for many years- and I have always understood it didn't kill many because of herd immunity. Because the overwhelming majority have had it at some time in their life.
Contrast to the proverbial Amazon tribe who have never seen flu. When they get it , it virtually wipes them all out.
so, is that thinking wrong,now?
How can some scientists believe there is herd immunity and some believe there isn't? Surely the evidence is there , one way or another.
As for measles and chicken pox. Are they mild illnesses which hardly ever kill, or would they too devastate our Amazon tribe?  If they would, then to my mind, that proves herd immunity exists.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 14, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hmmm-  then what is the difference between flu and Covid.  As a nation we have flu with us, and have had for many years- and I have always understood it didn't kill many because of herd immunity. Because the overwhelming majority have had it at some time in their life.
Contrast to the proverbial Amazon tribe who have never seen flu. When they get it , it virtually wipes them all out.
so, is that thinking wrong,now?
How can some scientists believe there is herd immunity and some believe there isn't? Surely the evidence is there , one way or another.
As for measles and chicken pox. Are they mild illnesses which hardly ever kill, or would they too devastate our Amazon tribe?  If they would, then to my mind, that proves herd immunity exists.
		
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I think people are immune from many viruses due to mass immunisation but Flu tends to mutate so there's a new strains every year.  Measles is a killer to people's with no protection.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 14, 2020)

6 confirmed cases at work but alas work must go on. 
What do you have to do get some time off!?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hmmm-  then what is the difference between flu and Covid.  As a nation we have flu with us, and have had for many years- and I have always understood it didn't kill many because of herd immunity. Because the overwhelming majority have had it at some time in their life.
Contrast to the proverbial Amazon tribe who have never seen flu. When they get it , it virtually wipes them all out.
so, is that thinking wrong,now?
How can some scientists believe there is herd immunity and some believe there isn't? Surely the evidence is there , one way or another.
As for measles and chicken pox. Are they mild illnesses which hardly ever kill, or would they too devastate our Amazon tribe?  If they would, then to my mind, that proves herd immunity exists.
		
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As Ethan had said, it seems there is such a thing. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-health-ministers-incorrect-herd-immunity-claims

So I'm a bit disappointed to see a health minister at the current time not quite grasping the basic science on health.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hmmm-  then what is the difference between flu and Covid.  As a nation we have flu with us, and have had for many years- and I have always understood it didn't kill many because of herd immunity. Because the overwhelming majority have had it at some time in their life.
Contrast to the proverbial Amazon tribe who have never seen flu. When they get it , it virtually wipes them all out.
so, is that thinking wrong,now?
How can some scientists believe there is herd immunity and some believe there isn't? Surely the evidence is there , one way or another.
As for measles and chicken pox. Are they mild illnesses which hardly ever kill, or would they too devastate our Amazon tribe?  If they would, then to my mind, that proves herd immunity exists.
		
Click to expand...

Herd immunity is essentially a mathematical construct, in which estimates about the infectivity, including the R, lead to an idea about the number of immune people in the population needed to stop an infection propagating. So it isn't really a matter of whether it exists or not, more whether it is applicable to this ceases or that one. That number is 1/1-R, so if R is 3 (as it is at baseline for Covid), then approx 66% of the population needed to be immune. For measles where R is 12-15, over 90% needs to be immune. The basic idea is that the more infectious something is, the fewer vulnerable people it needs to keep going. 

Herd immunity can be achieved, if it is possible to do so, through a mixture of vaccination or natural infection. There are few good examples where the official policy was to allow natural infection, so it is usually achieved by mass vaccination programmes.. It also presumes that infection confers immunity, and although that is likely with Covid, at least for a period of time, it is not certain. Finally, herd immunity does not remove the risk to shielded people, who may still get infected.

Measles is not a mild disease. It affects the brain and spinal cord, hence the well known sensitivity to light, and can cause deafness or a devastating neurological disease called sub-acute sclerosing panencephalitis, which is every bit as bad as the name suggests.


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## Beezerk (Oct 15, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			6 confirmed cases at work but alas work must go on.
What do you have to do get some time off!?
		
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You should have heard the owner of the factory I was in yesterday, he was asking "so you're coming back here after you've had your test aren't you?" 🙈


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			As Ethan had said, it seems there is such a thing.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-health-ministers-incorrect-herd-immunity-claims

So I'm a bit disappointed to see a health minister at the current time not quite grasping the basic science on health.
		
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Certainly someone across the pond seems to believe in it as it appears to have become federal policy...

Not sure I go for it as a strategy for today - but as we must and will eventually get there supported by vaccination - surely a bit like draining a reservoir perhaps - let the water out slowly and in a controlled manner rather than just blow up the dam.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2020)

This morning's announcements require very short notice changes to our plans for this weekend to remain compliant - not ideal but we can do that as we must...very difficult times...


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## DRW (Oct 15, 2020)

Been seeing a lot about pre covid and what the WHO recommended for such outbreaks, interesting read, makes you kind of wonder why we have moved away so massively from the original science/recommendations/Not recommended behind this. Going to be interesting reading history in years to come and lessons learnt. Link of document/chart

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...Y94IgGaHyxNKOln0JWG6K5OGZubFtwWTKH12-Vt7R47cM


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 15, 2020)

Affected me in such that I've booked a flight back home to Sweden to live some sort of normal life for a few weeks.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Affected me in such that I've booked a flight back home to Sweden to live some sort of normal life for a few weeks.
		
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Good Luck


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## road2ruin (Oct 15, 2020)

So that's us into Tier 2........The areas to go into high alert restrictions this weekend are:

Elmbridge in Surrey
Puts pay to seeing the folks over half term. I don't mind being upped a tier if that's what helps however the main concern is actually coming out of them given there are other areas who have been in 'special measures' for quite some time, have had the levels come down yet are still in them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			So that's us into Tier 2........The areas to go into high alert restrictions this weekend are:

Elmbridge in Surrey
Puts pay to seeing the folks over half term. I don't mind being upped a tier if that's what helps however the main concern is actually coming out of them given there are other areas who have been in 'special measures' for quite some time, have had the levels come down yet are still in them.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there didn't seem to be much opportunity earlier today for MPs, mayors etc of towns, cities and areas going from Tier 1 into Tier 2 to question the Health Minister (Helen Whately) on the call that was held. Typically they wanted to know whether the Tier2 restrictions were considered by the minister to be sufficient to constrain spread of the infection, and what would enable a Tier 2 area to move (back) to Tier 1.   I fear neither is known.  

I've heard the view expressed that if going from Tier 1 to Tier 2 is actually only likely to be a stepping stone to Tier 3 - then perhaps it would be as well going straight to a 2-3 week circuit break - because at least an end date would be known for a short CB.


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## Reemul (Oct 15, 2020)

Yep, lets go for a 2 week shut down, then back to tier1 for 2 or 3 weeks then up to tier 2 then tier 3, then maybe a shutdown at Xmas and away we go. R back to 0.5


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## drdel (Oct 15, 2020)

There is no such thing as 'herd immunity'. The infections and thus deaths continue, people are not immune and the since UK's population are not in isolation from other 'herds' so new sources will keep the infection circulating.

Only by reducing each person's susceptibility or exposure to COVID will it slowly disperse: that just leaves a vaccine and/or reducing person to person interaction as the way forward.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2020)

London tier 2 from Saturday

So childcare bubble has been set up with parents house 

Mother in law forms a support bubble with us 

All other visitors cancelled until further notice

Shame but having my sister over tomorrow 

Had my best friend round yest to celebrate her 30th birthday so least they got to see the kids until it starts again


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 15, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Affected me in such that I've booked a flight back home to Sweden to live some sort of normal life for a few weeks.
		
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Do report back what it’s like. 
Planning on going in January.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 15, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Do report back what it’s like.
Planning on going in January.
		
Click to expand...

We may all be booking our next holidays there.


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## Ethan (Oct 15, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is no such thing as 'herd immunity'. The infections and thus deaths continue, people are not immune and the since UK's population are not in isolation from other 'herds' so new sources will keep the infection circulating.

Only by reducing each person's susceptibility or exposure to COVID will it slowly disperse: that just leaves a vaccine and/or reducing person to person interaction as the way forward.
		
Click to expand...

Well, there is, but it isn't what people think it is. It is simply a rate of immunity that suffocates propagation of the infection. You are correct that infections and deaths continue, and this will be especially true for the shielded who re-emerge, thus the 'shield the vulnerable and get herd immunity going along the young' strategy does not work. . 

I agree that vaccine or avoid getting infected are the only safe ways forward.


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## 4LEX (Oct 15, 2020)

The problem is the media whipped the population into such a panic back in the spring, new cases and death rates are old news and won't have the same effect unless it's 2,000 deaths a day. Which as a result will lead to many more ignoring these restrictions.


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## drdel (Oct 15, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, there is, but it isn't what people think it is. It is simply a rate of immunity that suffocates propagation of the infection. You are correct that infections and deaths continue, and this will be especially true for the shielded who re-emerge, thus the 'shield the vulnerable and get herd immunity going along the young' strategy does not work. .

I agree that vaccine or avoid getting infected are the only safe ways forward.
		
Click to expand...

Yup. I think perhaps part of the problem is the media seem to tell the 'story' as if 'herd immunity' is a 'cure'/solution


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## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			As we don't live in the age of walled cities anymore, does anyone have any info on what actually counts as "London" relative to Tier 2 please?
		
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Any London borough


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## huds1475 (Oct 15, 2020)

DRW said:



			Been seeing a lot about pre covid and what the WHO recommended for such outbreaks, interesting read, makes you kind of wonder why we have moved away so massively from the original science/recommendations/Not recommended behind this. Going to be interesting reading history in years to come and lessons learnt. Link of document/chart

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...Y94IgGaHyxNKOln0JWG6K5OGZubFtwWTKH12-Vt7R47cM

View attachment 32942

Click to expand...

The paper is specifically for Influenza. Covid is a different virus isn’t it?

I’d expect NPI recommendations to differ by virus.

Maybe you‘re comparing apples and oranges? Though I’m no expert


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2020)

Just heard badminton clubs are now stopped in tier 2 areas. Which helped both my mental and physical health a lot, but what can you do. So for me I'm effectively back to where I was during lockdown with my only trips out in a car will be to go down Sainsburys.  It could be a long winter....


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 15, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			So that's us into Tier 2........The areas to go into high alert restrictions this weekend are:

Elmbridge in Surrey
Puts pay to seeing the folks over half term. I don't mind being upped a tier if that's what helps however the main concern is actually coming out of them given there are other areas who have been in 'special measures' for quite some time, have had the levels come down yet are still in them.
		
Click to expand...

I can see from some of the behaviour going on in cities why the level would go up, bur I'm struggling to see how Elmbridge has managed to get itself to the same position.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Sorry, genuine question, asking the obvious, no golf?
		
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Only really play in the summer time. Plus I'm not a member anywhere so getting on at weekends is a bit challenging.


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## road2ruin (Oct 15, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I can see from some of the behaviour going on in cities why the level would go up, bur I'm struggling to see how Elmbridge has managed to get itself to the same position.
		
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A question that seems to have been asked by many in the area. Some suggested it’s because we’re in a commuter area however Woking and Guildford are more so yet aren’t under the same restrictions. 

Another theory, although not sure whether this is a Facebook one, is that a lot of students who have had positive tests have done so and been registered under their home addresses even though they are away at
Uni. 

Anyway, does seem a bit odd but not a lot we can do bar live with it and hope we’re not like other places and still under it in 6 months time. 

Personally feel that we are sleepwalking into a national lockdown but won’t be called as such due it it being a regional basis.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 15, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			A question that seems to have been asked by many in the area. Some suggested it’s because we’re in a commuter area however Woking and Guildford are more so yet aren’t under the same restrictions.

Another theory, although not sure whether this is a Facebook one, is that a lot of students who have had positive tests have done so and been registered under their home addresses even though they are away at
Uni.

Anyway, does seem a bit odd but not a lot we can do bar live with it and hope we’re not like other places and still under it in 6 months time.

Personally feel that we are sleepwalking into a national lockdown but won’t be called as such due it it being a regional basis.
		
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Looking at the London map some of the commuter areas are bad, but equally some of the commuter areas have got better.  Not sure I buy the student theory.  As you say, not much you can do but live with it.  It did however provide a few of my work colleagues with a degree of amusement at my expense, not that it will be any consolation to you.


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## IainP (Oct 16, 2020)

IainP said:



			Not an "affect me" thing directly but the stats thread has fallen away.
Globally yesterday there was a new high over 310 thousand cases reported in a day.
Know increased testing is part of the story, but still sobering IMO.
Do wonder what it'll look like in a year's time 😕
		
Click to expand...

Dug this out to recall when it was, pretty much one month ago.
Just shy of 400K globally yesterday. 😕
I don't think the forum reaches that far, but would be interested in views on why South America's cases seem to have dropped significantly - I couldn't find any news analysis on a quick look that speculated. They are in spring now.
Europe is very much back as the "hot bed" of cases again 😕


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## Ethan (Oct 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yup. I think perhaps part of the problem is the media seem to tell the 'story' as if 'herd immunity' is a 'cure'/solution
		
Click to expand...

With something like measles, which requires


DRW said:



			Been seeing a lot about pre covid and what the WHO recommended for such outbreaks, interesting read, makes you kind of wonder why we have moved away so massively from the original science/recommendations/Not recommended behind this. Going to be interesting reading history in years to come and lessons learnt. Link of document/chart

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...Y94IgGaHyxNKOln0JWG6K5OGZubFtwWTKH12-Vt7R47cM

View attachment 32942

Click to expand...

We haven't moved away from the original science. We have applied different measures for a different virus with different properties. Those measures are for influenza. As many many people have been saying, Covid is not influenza. The 'not recommend' list are all of potential value with Covid.


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## DRW (Oct 16, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			The paper is specifically for Influenza. Covid is a different virus isn’t it?

I’d expect NPI recommendations to differ by virus.

Maybe you‘re comparing apples and oranges? Though I’m no expert 

Click to expand...

If you are interested in reading about it, then there is other guidance available on the WHO website from earlier years, which is directed to 'general' respiratory viruses. Similarish comments over the various options when you take in the third party collateral, the virus is just far to much out there to get rid of. 

Don't believe there is any expert on here , certainly not me, I am just a pleb just trying to learn, which is interesting and experts don't fully agree either 

History will be the final judge on this, as there is loads of data from loads of countries taking different actions, and to a pleb like me it sure doesn't make sense in lots of areas. But history will make it clearer.

Happy Reading.


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## DRW (Oct 16, 2020)

IainP said:



			Dug this out to recall when it was, pretty much one month ago.
Just shy of 400K globally yesterday. 😕
I don't think the forum reaches that far, but would be interested in views on why South America's cases seem to have dropped significantly - I couldn't find any news analysis on a quick look that speculated. They are in spring now.
Europe is very much back as the "hot bed" of cases again 😕
		
Click to expand...

Wish I could find the link, but cant find it in my saved areas.

I think I remember reading about how generally respiratory viruses spread 'best/easiest' in a certain zones of temperature and humidity, of which Europe sits very often. Never did follow it and search for more back up information over it, so not sure it is a science fact or not.

Will have a look later to see it I can find the link.


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## Crazyface (Oct 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We may all be booking our next holidays there.
		
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Not at the price they charge for a beer !!!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 16, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Not at the price they charge for a beer !!!!
		
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Ha ha, that is a fair point. I have only had one there, Stockholm, it was about £9. I was hot and tired so it was worth it. I didn't have a second though


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## SaintHacker (Oct 16, 2020)

This is an interesting read 
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...r-jet-very-low-according-to-us-study-12105228


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## GB72 (Oct 16, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			This is an interesting read
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...r-jet-very-low-according-to-us-study-12105228

Click to expand...

If it was the same one i read this morning then I was not impressed. The study assumed only one infected person on the plane and no movement of passengers once they had taken their seat. Basically the most beneficial circumstances if you were preparing a report to encourage people back on flights.


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## Imurg (Oct 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			If it was the same one i read this morning then I was not impressed. The study assumed only one infected person on the plane and no movement of passengers once they had taken their seat. Basically the most beneficial circumstances if you were preparing a report to encourage people back on flights.
		
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Indeed...a best case scenario 
They need to do another one with 4 or 5 infected people and passengers moving about otherwise its worthless.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Indeed...a best case scenario
They need to do another one with 4 or 5 infected people and passengers moving about otherwise its worthless.
		
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Put a stag and hen party on board .
You will get a totally different set of stats


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Put a stag and hen party on board .
You will get a totally different set of stats
		
Click to expand...

COVID or STD


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			COVID or STD 

Click to expand...

If you get one you probably got the other.


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## PNWokingham (Oct 16, 2020)

I started feeling rough last Sunday but had a cough and a few symptoms for a couple of days earlier, although didn't think anything of it at the time. Had test on Monday 11.30 - got results back 9pm Wednesday as positive. Zara's came back negative although her sysmptoms are very similar but with a 39 degree temperature and i was 36.5. We both had very poor taste - vinegar smelt disgusting, like acid!! Zara sent back another self test today. 

I am in isolation till next Wednesday. Not feeling too bad  now and have worked right through - although i have been pretty rough it was easier to work and keep occupied. I know it affects everyone differently and while by no means pleasant, I have had much worse doses of flu, let along man flu! 

My first Peroni at hand right now and it tastes OK!! Can't wait to get back to normal - whatever that is!!


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## Imurg (Oct 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I started feeling rough last Sunday but had a cough and a few symptoms for a couple of days earlier, although didn't think anything of it at the time. Had test on Monday 11.30 - got results back 9pm Wednesday as positive. Zara's came back negative although her sysmptoms are very similar but with a 39 degree temperature and i was 36.5. We both had very poor taste - vinegar smelt disgusting, like acid!! Zara sent back another self test today.

I am in isolation till next Wednesday. Not feeling too bad  now and have worked right through - although i have been pretty rough it was easier to work and keep occupied. I know it affects everyone differently and while by no means pleasant, I have had much worse doses of flu, let along man flu!

My first Peroni at hand right now and it tastes OK!! Can't wait to get back to normal - whatever that is!!
		
Click to expand...

There's the cure.....loads of Peroni.
Job done.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			If it was the same one i read this morning then I was not impressed. The study assumed only one infected person on the plane and no movement of passengers once they had taken their seat. Basically the most beneficial circumstances if you were preparing a report to encourage people back on flights.
		
Click to expand...

Good dose of imodium before boarding recommended.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 16, 2020)

Imurg said:



			There's the cure.....loads of Peroni.
Job done.

Click to expand...

Stella


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## Ethan (Oct 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			COVID or STD 

Click to expand...

The definition of close contact for the two of them is somewhat different and not to be confused.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The definition of close contact for the two of them is somewhat different and not to be confused.
		
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Well you would be good to get one of them from 2mtrs.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 16, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I started feeling rough last Sunday but had a cough and a few symptoms for a couple of days earlier, although didn't think anything of it at the time. Had test on Monday 11.30 - got results back 9pm Wednesday as positive. Zara's came back negative although her sysmptoms are very similar but with a 39 degree temperature and i was 36.5. We both had very poor taste - vinegar smelt disgusting, like acid!! Zara sent back another self test today.

I am in isolation till next Wednesday. Not feeling too bad  now and have worked right through - although i have been pretty rough it was easier to work and keep occupied. I know it affects everyone differently and while by no means pleasant, I have had much worse doses of flu, let along man flu!

My first Peroni at hand right now and it tastes OK!! Can't wait to get back to normal - whatever that is!!
		
Click to expand...

I tested negative on Monday and still feel rough.
Take care.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well you would be good to get one of them from 2mtrs.

Click to expand...

Should be OK if you've got 15 seconds 😉


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## Beezerk (Oct 17, 2020)

Test result has finally come back as negative 🎉


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 17, 2020)

I see John Humphries ( Mastermind) has been spouting again ,clearly coming down on the side of free the restrictions and let things take their natural course.
Part if his argument was that only 1 in 7 of the over seventies who get Covid will die🙄
Last count there are 8,769,122 over seventies in this country. He didn't mention that.
Someone on here will have some statistical evidence as to how many of this number would be likely to contract Covid (if we go back to "ordinary "),
but it still seems it would be a high number.
However, obedience of restrictions and belief in the rationale of them seems to be waning fast.
What if an "about face " were to be the case, together with an early offer of the vaccine, to the elderly and vulnerable?
There are arguments for it worth listening to.
1. Russia and China, apparently, are using it. Before any politically motivated/conspiracy views rail against this, do you think that these nation's scientists etc are going to impose on their populace something that's half baked? Or is it likely to be a balanced risk assessed strategy as a best overall solution?
2. Ethan has earlier said that all medicines/drugs are developed and used on a risk assessment basis, I.e. Their benefits outweigh their risks to justify using them. Which is reasonable and true.
What if it came to the point here, that Oxford and Imperial college vaccines were offered," a bit ahead of normal", as a slightly higher than usual risk timeline,  to curtail the virus in order to return to normality.
The offer being- it will prevent you getting the virus, but the long term side effects carry a slightly higher risk than normal.
Would you take it, if you were 70 or over?

I am, and I would.

Comments?


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 17, 2020)

I am now more and more moving towards that same view point.  A lockdown only delays the virus.  Unless everyone in the world totally self-isolates for 14 days, it will always be there.   So yes we have to wait for a vaccine, yes we have to let some kind of normality takes it course and yes I would take such a vaccine and I am not close to 70 yet albeit closer than a university student.

But no-one in charge of this or most other countries would dare suggest this because of the fear of the comeback from opportunist opponents.


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## Ethan (Oct 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I see John Humphries ( Mastermind) has been spouting again ,clearly coming down on the side of free the restrictions and let things take their natural course.
Part if his argument was that only 1 in 7 of the over seventies who get Covid will die🙄
Last count there are 8,769,122 over seventies in this country. He didn't mention that.
Someone on here will have some statistical evidence as to how many of this number would be likely to contract Covid (if we go back to "ordinary "),
but it still seems it would be a high number.
However, obedience of restrictions and belief in the rationale of them seems to be waning fast.
What if an "about face " were to be the case, together with an early offer of the vaccine, to the elderly and vulnerable?
There are arguments for it worth listening to.
1. Russia and China, apparently, are using it. Before any politically motivated/conspiracy views rail against this, do you think that these nation's scientists etc are going to impose on their populace something that's half baked? Or is it likely to be a balanced risk assessed strategy as a best overall solution?
2. Ethan has earlier said that all medicines/drugs are developed and used on a risk assessment basis, I.e. Their benefits outweigh their risks to justify using them. Which is reasonable and true.
What if it came to the point here, that Oxford and Imperial college vaccines were offered," a bit ahead of normal", as a slightly higher than usual risk timeline,  to curtail the virus in order to return to normality.
The offer being- it will prevent you getting the virus, but the long term side effects carry a slightly higher risk than normal.
Would you take it, if you were 70 or over?

I am, and I would.

Comments?
		
Click to expand...

Personally, I do not need to see phase III data for a vaccine. If the phase II data has shown that it results in a robust antibody response, and separate studies have shown that the sorts of antibodies generated neutralise virus, than I would accept a vaccine approved by the European Medicines Agency on that data. The UK is not going to approve a vaccine before EMA does. The biggest risk with most vaccines is that they don't work very well. Major safety issues are not unknown but are uncommon. The risks of Covid are becoming well known and are not uncommon.

The likely benefit-risk ration varies for people, mostly on age but also co-morbidities, so as someone who started playing golf when woods were actually made of wood, I think it is worth it.

I wouldn't take the Chinese or Russian vaccines until they were shown to have met EMA standards of efficacy, safety and manufacturing quality. I doubt they are there yet.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 17, 2020)

https://www.pfizer.com/news/hot-topics/an_open_letter_from_pfizer_chairman_and_ceo_albert_bourla


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I am now more and more moving towards that same view point.  A lockdown only delays the virus.  Unless everyone in the world totally self-isolates for 14 days, it will always be there.   So yes we have to wait for a vaccine, yes we have to let some kind of normality takes it course and yes I would take such a vaccine and I am not close to 70 yet albeit closer than a university student.

But no-one in charge of this or most other countries would dare suggest this because of the fear of the comeback from opportunist opponents.
		
Click to expand...

There is also the consideration of overwhelming the health service, letting the virus rip would do this very quickly.

I hear a lot of people suggesting we just go back to a normal life but does that mean the vulnerable being locked away, if it does then it's a very selfish attitude in my opinion. Would people hold the same view if it was the young that were vulnerable  I think older people would be prepared to do whatever was needed if it protected the young.


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## Leftitshort (Oct 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think older people would be prepared to do whatever was needed if it protected the young.
		
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First point I don’t disagree with. Any risk to the NHS should be managed, real or perceived.
this bit above, you’re either being ironic or just speaking nonsense. (Mod Edit)


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 18, 2020)

Can we cut out the political comments please guys 👍


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 18, 2020)

I see the police are going to get access to the data from the test and trace app. Somehow I can't see that encouraging many people to use it to make is successful. 

And in unrelated news Serco have told the stock exchange they will exceed their profit targets this year due to coronavirus-related work. Good news for their shareholders in these financially troubled times there. I may buy some myself.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			First point I don’t disagree with. Any risk to the NHS should be managed, real or perceived.
this bit above, you’re either being ironic or just speaking nonsense. (Mod Edit)
		
Click to expand...

In general older people are incredibly supportive of their families, they would not sacrifice the lives of the young for their own lifestyles in my opinion.  If you believe that to be nonsense then I must disagree.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2020)

Can someone just clarify this please.

Friend has had a close colleague in work test positive on Friday. Those in close contact at work told to isolate for 14 days.

Friend has had a test today and says he’s been told if his test is negative he can return to work.

Confused bit is incubation period, ie, is it possible to be tested too early as such?


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## Beezerk (Oct 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Can someone just clarify this please.

Friend has had a close colleague in work test positive on Friday. Those in close contact at work told to isolate for 14 days.

Friend has had a test today and says he’s been told if his test is negative he can return to work.

Confused bit is incubation period, ie, is it possible to be tested too early as such?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I think it is, my daughter tested negative a couple of days after being in close contact with someone who had tested positive. Three days later she got symptoms and subsequently tested positive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Yes I think it is, my daughter tested negative a couple of days after being in close contact with someone who had tested positive. Three days later she got symptoms and subsequently tested positive.
		
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Cheers, really not straightforward when I checked on line.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Yes I think it is, my daughter tested negative a couple of days after being in close contact with someone who had tested positive. Three days later she got symptoms and subsequently tested positive.
		
Click to expand...

Just read up on it again, and if I read it correctly, my friend has to isolate for 14 days even if negative, but anyone he lives with, ie, his wife (who is currently also isolating) can go out if his result is negative as she didn’t come in to contact with initial source.


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## pendodave (Oct 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In general older people are incredibly supportive of their families, they would not sacrifice the lives of the young for their own lifestyles in my opinion.  If you believe that to be nonsense then I must disagree.
		
Click to expand...

I can barely remember a single historical event in the 20th century where millions of young people died to advance the interests of rich and powerful old men.......
.... or maybe I can...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I can barely remember a single historical event in the 20th century where millions of young people died to advance the interests of rich and powerful old men.......
.... or maybe I can...
		
Click to expand...

My point was theoretical not political.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In general older people are incredibly supportive of their families, they would not sacrifice the lives of the young for their own lifestyles in my opinion.  If you believe that to be nonsense then I must disagree.
		
Click to expand...

I would say it’s nonsense. Generally parents and grandparents would want the best for their sons, daughters and grandchildren. 

The economic, societal, financial and  mental issues with this approach don’t seem to be the offering gift and lasting legacy I’d like to leave for the offspring. 

Protecting an age group that won’t see an end to this and won’t see normal again seems pretty nonsensical. 

Maybe we should ask them? I imagine they want to live their last years normally.


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## Billysboots (Oct 18, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Maybe we should ask them? I imagine they want to live their last years normally.
		
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My 83 year old mum is in that category.

She did her best during lockdown. She’s high risk, lives on her own and I’m her only nearby family. She understood most of the guidance, put her own spin on some of it and, whilst she got through it she found it tough. For the first time I think she feels mortal and understands that time is not on her side.

If we went into another national lockdown she has pretty much said she’ll take her chances. She wants to enjoy what life she has left, and I totally get that.

However, I find it difficult to be fully supportive of her, quite simply because her putting herself at risk because she’s not concerned about her own well being has the clear potential to jeopardise the health of everyone she comes into contact with.

In addition, whilst I want to see her live her life, I am under no illusions. Given her age and underlying health issues, if she catches this virus I’m fairly certain she won’t survive it.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 18, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			My 83 year old mum is in that category.

She did her best during lockdown. She’s high risk, lives on her own and I’m her only nearby family. She understood most of the guidance, put her own spin on some of it and, whilst she got through it she found it tough. For the first time I think she feels mortal and understands that time is not on her side.

If we went into another national lockdown she has pretty much said she’ll take her chances. She wants to enjoy what life she has left, and I totally get that.

However, I find it difficult to be fully supportive of her, quite simply because her putting herself at risk because she’s not concerned about her own well being has the clear potential to jeopardise the health of everyone she comes into contact with.

In addition, whilst I want to see her live her life, I am under no illusions. Given her age and underlying health issues, if she catches this virus I’m fairly certain she won’t survive it.
		
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I suppose it depends on the definition of 'taking their chances' is. Not sure I'd be happy with them cruising the OAP club circuit without a mask on. 

But I'd totally understand why an elderly person on their own with not that long to go would want to say, at least see their grandchildren over the next few months.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I would say it’s nonsense. Generally parents and grandparents would want the best for their sons, daughters and grandchildren.

The economic, societal, financial and  mental issues with this approach don’t seem to be the offering gift and lasting legacy I’d like to leave for the offspring.

Protecting an age group that won’t see an end to this and won’t see normal again seems pretty nonsensical.

Maybe we should ask them? I imagine they want to live their last years normally.
		
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We need to look after each other IMO, because people may only have 5, 10, 20 years left is no reason to suggest they are any the less entitled to live them.


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## road2ruin (Oct 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suppose it depends on the definition of 'taking their chances' is. Not sure I'd be happy with them cruising the OAP club circuit without a mask on.

But I'd totally understand why an elderly person on their own with not that long to go would want to say, at least see their grandchildren over the next few months.
		
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My wife’s gran is 95, up until this year she was a very active 95 year old with her social activities plus bowls etc. All of that has been curtailed and she’s pretty much confined to barracks although is still in her own home rather than a care home. 

Today she called and said that she’s made the decision that she’d like to see her granddaughter (6 years old) rather than doing Zoom calls. She doesn’t see anyone face to face anymore as her classes and sports have been cancelled so she’s no risk to anyone other than herself. She knows the risk as our daughter is at school and does various clubs but is adamant she doesn’t want to waste what time she has left staring at a screen. 

My wife is uncertain however her gran was very definite as to her wishes. Looks like we have a visit booked in for next week.


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## Old Skier (Oct 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I see the police are going to get access to the data from the test and trace app. Somehow I can't see that encouraging many people to use it to make is successful.

And in unrelated news Serco have told the stock exchange they will exceed their profit targets this year due to coronavirus-related work. Good news for their shareholders in these financially troubled times there. I may buy some myself.
		
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Everyone goes on how successful countries like South Korea was with track and trace, they could even access your bank accounts and new which shops  you had been in. Pointless having track and trace if those needing to enforce it can’t trace.


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## Ethan (Oct 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Everyone goes on how successful countries like South Korea was with track and trace, they could even access your bank accounts and new which shops  you had been in. Pointless having track and trace if those needing to enforce it can’t trace.
		
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True, but you need a fundamentally functional and efficient T&T system with high levels of coverage before enforcement is useful. No point harassing individuals if swathes of other people are missed by the system. One doesn't make up for the other.


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## Old Skier (Oct 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			True, but you need a fundamentally functional and efficient T&T system with high levels of coverage before enforcement is useful. No point harassing individuals if swathes of other people are missed by the system. One doesn't make up for the other.
		
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Must be a help if those who are on the system do things properly instead of allowing the high percentage that are ignoring the restrictions.


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## Ethan (Oct 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Must be a help if those who are on the system do things properly instead of allowing the high percentage that are ignoring the restrictions.
		
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It is moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. The current system drops the ball right at the outset. Lots of cases are never reached, therefore many contacts are never identified in the first place, and of those who are identified many are never contacted, so all of those are not liable for failing to follow instructions they never got. At this point, the system is a waste of time. 

I think the allegations of lots of people failing to comply are exaggerated to distract from more fundamental structural failings. If one person who is isolating and on day 10 decides to go to the chip shop wearing a mask, it is extremely unlikely any harm will have resulted to anyone, and getting Plod involved is a waste of everybody's time and a distraction. 

They ned to rip Serco Test and Trace up, tell Dido to do one and do what should have been done in March - scale up local boots on the ground contact tracing, along with testing all close contacts of cases.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We need to look after each other IMO, because people may only have 5, 10, 20 years left is no reason to suggest they are any the less entitled to live them.
		
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Yes, not all "old" people are ready to go. I go along with the old Bob Hope gag.

Whoever wants to live to be a hundred,? said the 40 yr old.


Someone who's ninetynine.! Said the old man.


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## Old Skier (Oct 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is moving the deckchairs on the Titanic. The current system drops the ball right at the outset. Lots of cases are never reached, therefore many contacts are never identified in the first place, and of those who are identified many are never contacted, so all of those are not liable for failing to follow instructions they never got. At this point, the system is a waste of time.

I think the allegations of lots of people failing to comply are exaggerated to distract from more fundamental structural failings. If one person who is isolating and on day 10 decides to go to the chip shop wearing a mask, it is extremely unlikely any harm will have resulted to anyone, and getting Plod involved is a waste of everybody's time and a distraction.

They ned to rip Serco Test and Trace up, tell Dido to do one and do what should have been done in March - scale up local boots on the ground contact tracing, along with testing all close contacts of cases.
		
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So the reports that many countries test and trace isn't doing as well as hoped should not even come into the equation,  interesting.

Lets bin all the advice as there are such a large minority not bothered , an interesting way to look at things.


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## Ethan (Oct 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So the reports that many countries test and trace isn't doing as well as hoped should not even come into the equation,  interesting.

Lets bin all the advice as there are such a large minority not bothered , an interesting way to look at things.
		
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Not sure what you are talking about. Test and trace is important, but needs to be done properly and fixing minor issues at the margins doesn't fix the major ones at the core. We now need a functional and effective system and Plod can do nothing to help that.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 18, 2020)

Can I just say I'm liking the sudden conversion to socialism in terms of society coming together for the greater good and a sense of community from some who previously could be argued took a less benevolent approach. Glad to finally have you on board. Its good isn't it, feels nice


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## SaintHacker (Oct 18, 2020)

Finally some positive news, hopefully the light at the end of the tunnel is coming into view

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...le-early-in-2021-sage-scientist-says-12107285


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## Mudball (Oct 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			In general older people are incredibly supportive of their families, they would not sacrifice the lives of the young for their own lifestyles in my opinion.  If you believe that to be nonsense then I must disagree.
		
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True ... but a similar argument was made during the whole Brexit vote... that those won’t be able to enjoy the gains/losses of leaving (because they are old) should not be allowed to vote while we should allow the young ones to vote

I can’t see the age argument. Surely this is about riding the damn virus out till we have a vaccine. We r not in the end-of-the-world or titanic situation (yet)


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## Mudball (Oct 18, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Finally some positive news, hopefully the light at the end of the tunnel is coming into view

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...le-early-in-2021-sage-scientist-says-12107285

Click to expand...

See Trump was right ... we will have the most beautiful vaccine and all this will disappear like magic. 

(Indeed good news)


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## Tashyboy (Oct 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Not sure what you are talking about. Test and trace is important, but needs to be done properly and fixing minor issues at the margins doesn't fix the major ones at the core. We now need a functional and effective system and Plod can do nothing to help that.
		
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Got a message through today on the Covid app saying I had been in contact with someone who has Covid. It was a couple of hours after a PP put on our what’s app group that he had Covid. Played a round with him last Tuesday. No suprise where the contact was then. Anyway that’s not a problem at all, 9 days isolation as per the app says.
But, I spoke to another PP who played a round today and played with me on Tuesday. They were on about it at the course after today’s round and a few lads said “ stuff it we won’t sign on with the app when we get to the course”. What the hell is that all about. I could scream.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I just say I'm liking the sudden conversion to socialism in terms of society coming together for the greater good and a sense of community from some who previously could be argued took a less benevolent approach. Glad to finally have you on board. Its good isn't it, feels nice

Click to expand...

If your sarcasm is aimed at me and I strongly suspect it is then I suggest this is not an issue for silly point scoring. Do you honestly believe because someone has a different preference on social matters they would wish people to die, that's a ridiculous suggestion and one that a winking emoji doesn't excuse.


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## Kellfire (Oct 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If your sarcasm is aimed at me and I strongly suspect it is then I suggest this is not an issue for silly point scoring. Do you honestly believe because someone has a different preference on social matters they would wish people to die, that's a ridiculous suggestion and one that a winking emoji doesn't excuse.
		
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Not wish them to die, no, but be much more accepting of it happening, yes.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Not wish them to die, no, but be much more accepting of it happening, yes.
		
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Please explain how you come to that conclusion.


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## Kellfire (Oct 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain how you come to that conclusion.
		
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Do you deny that at least in the broad scheme that a socialist outlook on society is more likely to prioritise the happiness and health of everyone as a collective when compared to our current capitalist culture?

If so then it’s a fundamental disagreement which we’ll never get past so no point trying.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do you deny that at least in the broad scheme that a socialist outlook on society is more likely to prioritise the happiness and health of everyone as a collective when compared to our current capitalist culture?

If so then it’s a fundamental disagreement which we’ll never get past so no point trying. 

Click to expand...

It's impossible to discuss this without breaking the rule on political posting.  I can only say that your previous suggestion is not true IMO.


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## Ethan (Oct 18, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Got a message through today on the Covid app saying I had been in contact with someone who has Covid. It was a couple of hours after a PP put on our what’s app group that he had Covid. Played a round with him last Tuesday. No suprise where the contact was then. Anyway that’s not a problem at all, 9 days isolation as per the app says.
But, I spoke to another PP who played a round today and played with me on Tuesday. They were on about it at the course after today’s round and a few lads said “ stuff it we won’t sign on with the app when we get to the course”. What the hell is that all about. I could scream.
		
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The issue for me is the validity of the contact ID. If you had been playing golf outdoors (as it is generally played!) and observing social distancing, the chance of infection is minimal and probably should not necessitate isolation. Presumably the other guy was just asked to name who he had played with and not a great deal of thought has gone into whether there was real exposure or not.

Covid is a condition transmitted through close and prolonged contact in poorly ventilated places. Unless he walked up to you and coughed in your face, you are very unlikely to have caught it. If you are happy to self-isolate, fine, but I sympathise with anyone for whom that is a major inconvenience.


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## ExRabbit (Oct 19, 2020)

Having to cancel our holiday next week because we went into Tier 3 this weekend.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Got a message through today on the Covid app saying I had been in contact with someone who has Covid. It was a couple of hours after a PP put on our what’s app group that he had Covid. Played a round with him last Tuesday. No suprise where the contact was then. Anyway that’s not a problem at all, 9 days isolation as per the app says.
But, I spoke to another PP who played a round today and played with me on Tuesday. They were on about it at the course after today’s round and a few lads said “ stuff it we won’t sign on with the app when we get to the course”. What the hell is that all about. I could scream.
		
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The app doesn't know if your outside or inside and it's only Inside for over 15 mins that it should be concerned about 

It gives people the ability to turn off the tracking bit in the app, and I'm not surprised people are turning it off when outside because they would be told to isolate when they shouldn't be really ..

Would be good if it could say where u where when you had the contact so then you could work out if you were outside or inside and know do I need to isolate 

How many players leave their phones in their bag, so bags stay together for example and tells track and trace their standing next to each other when their not at all


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The app doesn't know if your outside or inside and it's only Inside for over 15 mins that it should be concerned about

It gives people the ability to turn off the tracking bit in the app, and I'm not surprised people are turning it off when outside because they would be told to isolate when they shouldn't be really ..

Would be good if it could say where u where when you had the contact so then you could work out if you were outside or inside and know do I need to isolate

How many players leave their phones in their bag, so bags stay together for example and tells track and trace their standing next to each other when their not at all
		
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a friend of mine; in his 40s, has a masters degree, well educated family, earns six digit salary, well travelled, plays golf every week..... (opposite of every stereotype).. just refuses to use the NHS app.   Met him and a few others for a pub meal a few weeks ago.  everyone except him signed in.  never check ins at his club either.    There is nothing you can do for covidiots


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The issue for me is the validity of the contact ID. If you had been playing golf outdoors (as it is generally played!) and observing social distancing, the chance of infection is minimal and probably should not necessitate isolation. Presumably the other guy was just asked to name who he had played with and not a great deal of thought has gone into whether there was real exposure or not.

Covid is a condition transmitted through close and prolonged contact in poorly ventilated places. Unless he walked up to you and coughed in your face, you are very unlikely to have caught it. If you are happy to self-isolate, fine, but I sympathise with anyone for whom that is a major inconvenience.
		
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Had a good natter with Missis T about this. We honestly don’t know if it because he Named us or did the phones which are now sat in the golf bags linked whilst waiting at tees when the bags were side by side. Not sure at all how it works. 
Re the isolation, it is it what it is. Fortunately being retired there’s no work or money issues.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a good natter with Missis T about this. We honestly don’t know if it because he Named us or did the phones which are now sat in the golf bags linked whilst waiting at tees when the bags were side by side. Not sure at all how it works.
Re the isolation, it is it what it is. Fortunately being retired there’s no work or money issues.
		
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When I play golf now I leave my phone in the car, specifically to avoid being caught out on this. I take it and sign in using the app when I have a drink afterwards but to get potentially caught because two phones are communicating between bags would annoy me greatly.

At least you are not missing City matches on your season ticket due to this. Keep sane!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When I play golf now I leave my phone in the car, specifically to avoid being caught out on this. I take it and sign in using the app when I have a drink afterwards but to get potentially caught because two phones are communicating between bags would annoy me greatly.

At least you are not missing City matches on your season ticket due to this. Keep sane!
		
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You could turn off contact tracing before you tee off with a reminder for 4 hours time


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			You could turn off contact tracing before you tee off with a reminder for 4 hours time
		
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I could but it is even easier to just leave it in the car. Fair point though.

I don't check the phone when I am playing. If there is an emergency then I have told my wife to ring the club and someone would come out in a buggy and find me. I was trying to think of the last time I checked my phone whilst playing and I could not think of it. Inevitably it would be to check sports scores , nothing else. As I play early on a Saturday morning it would either be the World Cup rugby last year or cricket at some point. I'm not an obsessive regarding my phone so I am happy to leave it untouched.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When I play golf now I leave my phone in the car, specifically to avoid being caught out on this. I take it and sign in using the app when I have a drink afterwards but to get potentially caught because two phones are communicating between bags would annoy me greatly.

At least you are not missing City matches on your season ticket due to this. Keep sane!
		
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I made the decision re not renewing the season tickets for this season. Last season, going to the games was pergutory. Changing fixtures, late fixtures, VAR. It got to be a chore. I probably missed more matches than I saw. Oddly enough it has come to the point where I am not even bothered if it is on the box. Might change when fans are allowed at games.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 19, 2020)

Interesting;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54598728

So do the vulnerable die from the disease or die hiding from the disease?  A little simplistic I know, but are we currently underestimating the risks of lockdowns and self-isolation?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Not commented on this thread for a bit,  but is there anyone That has struggled through this Covid.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Interesting;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54598728

So do the vulnerable die from the disease or die hiding from the disease?  A little simplistic I know, but are we currently underestimating the risks of lockdowns and self-isolation?
		
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Did these people choose to die out of hospital or was it due to them not having the choice.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Not commented on this thread for a bit,  but is there anyone That has struggled through this Covid.
		
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You talking about the disease or the period of time?


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2020)

When u dont wear a mask and are proud of it....  (then social media happens)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1316400019868704769
or is this only a EasyJet phenomenon 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1317948341544800258


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			You talking about the disease or the period of time?
		
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Any part of it, a pal of mine had Covid and was really poorly, hie wife now has Lupus. Specialist don’t know if there linked. Me ma  and Pa who are in there 80’s. It’s driving them barmy.


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## Kellfire (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Not commented on this thread for a bit,  but is there anyone That has struggled through this Covid.
		
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Yes, it has had a detrimental effect on my mental and physical health but I still think lockdown should’ve been sooner and more strict.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Any part of it, a pal of mine had Covid and was really poorly, hie wife now has Lupus. Specialist don’t know if there linked. Me ma  and Pa who are in there 80’s. It’s driving them barmy.
		
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I hope they are not linked, my wife was diagnosed with Lupus when she 19! She has also been on Hydroxychloroquine for 30 years.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sadly my carpet/flooring fitter's daughter has just tested positive, so he has to isolate for 2 weeks. leaving us with bare floors, hard times ahead . Hopefully they're alright  .


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Not commented on this thread for a bit,  but is there anyone That has struggled through this Covid.
		
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I suspect the better question, no offence, is there anyone who hasn't struggled through this? For me, up and down days. Far more up than down but still the occasional down day. I have to avoid Disney films and slow songs on the radio on those days 😁


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect the better question, no offence, is there anyone who hasn't struggled through this? For me, up and down days. Far more up than down but still the occasional down day. I have to avoid Disney films and slow songs on the radio on those days 😁
		
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😂😂


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Any part of it, a pal of mine had Covid and was really poorly, hie wife now has Lupus. Specialist don’t know if there linked. Me ma  and Pa who are in there 80’s. It’s driving them barmy.
		
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Could be, there have been reports of increased numbers of cases of various forms of autoimmunity during this Covid period, from Type I diabetes in kids up to stuff like lupus. Covid is really an inflammatory/immunological condition.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I hope they are not linked, my wife was diagnosed with Lupus when she 19! She has also been on Hydroxychloroquine for 30 years.
		
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Missis Ts pal was asked by the specialist if she has had any recent stress in her life, her hubby nearly knocking on the pearly gates could come under that category. Apparently said specialist rolled his eyes and said we don’t know the links/association between Lupus and Covid yet. Fortunately when it comes to illnesses, drugs etc.Missis T recognises the big words and tells me in layman’s terms


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Could be, there have been reports of increased numbers of cases of various forms of autoimmunity during this Covid period, from Type I diabetes in kids up to stuff like lupus. Covid is really an inflammatory/immunological condition.
		
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just a quickie Ethan, Ave just mentioned to Missis T re me pal who was in a real mess re Covid, it was his wife who has Lupus. Anyway, we don’t know if she had a mild form of Covid or not, but I asked Missis T why they would not test to see if she has had Lupus and if in actual fact it was Covid ( or stress) that set her Lupus off. She has said she had 8 blood samples taken yesterday so not sure if they will check for it.
would it not be standard practice to test partners of Covid cases 🤔


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect the better question, no offence, is there anyone who hasn't struggled through this? For me, up and down days. Far more up than down but still the occasional down day. I have to avoid Disney films and slow songs on the radio on those days 😁
		
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Am not sure we/ I have struggled, it’s been different and challenging at times, and with the grandkids, flippin busy. Am not to sure the toughest days are behind us yet what with Christmas coming. Me and Missis T have been up to the tits in it with both sets of parents and grandkids. She had a well earned weeks break with her sister 2 weeks ago. Shame she broke her ankle whilst away 😖 what a bloody year 🥴😂


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## Mudball (Oct 19, 2020)

On a conf call today...  hope everyone had a good weekend, btw ‘John’ you did not respond to my email. 

John: Sorry, been tested positive and hence been offline

Tumbleweed ....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis Ts pal was asked by the specialist if she has had any recent stress in her life, her hubby nearly knocking on the pearly gates could come under that category. Apparently said specialist rolled his eyes and said we don’t know the links/association between Lupus and Covid yet. Fortunately when it comes to illnesses, drugs etc.Missis T recognises the big words and tells me in layman’s terms
		
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The Hydroxy is the drug Trump was pushing as a cure at one time, so it would be a cruel joke if Covid sets the Lupus off then one of the Lupus drugs cured Covid.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The Hydroxy is the drug Trump was pushing as a cure at one time, so it would be a cruel joke if Covid sets the Lupus off then one of the Lupus drugs cured Covid. 

Click to expand...

🥴dear god we would not hear the end of it, is that the anti malarial drug as well 😳


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			🥴dear god we would not hear the end of it, is that the anti malarial drug as well 😳
		
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Yes mate, trade name is Plaquenil, wife had a bit of meltdown when Trump started on about it, it’s made in France and there was already a warning about stocks in place.
There are other brands, unfortunately the wife reacted badly to another brand and can only take Plaquenil, something to do with the casing or whatever.🤷‍♂️


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			just a quickie Ethan, Ave just mentioned to Missis T re me pal who was in a real mess re Covid, it was his wife who has Lupus. Anyway, we don’t know if she had a mild form of Covid or not, but I asked Missis T why they would not test to see if she has had Lupus and if in actual fact it was Covid ( or stress) that set her Lupus off. She has said she had 8 blood samples taken yesterday so not sure if they will check for it.
would it not be standard practice to test partners of Covid cases 🤔
		
Click to expand...

It is not standard practice to test partners or contacts of cases, which I think is a huge oversight and I have moaned about it many times here. 

Many of the people who get these auto-immune conditions are Covid-antibody negative, so it may be nothing to do with Covid, or they could have had an immunological response which did not result in antibodies. This is common among younger people and is probably because much of their immune response is driven by T-cells. T-cells are also implicated in the pathology of many immune conditions. so could be cross reactivity of some sort or an effect which occurs as collateral damage during an immune-activated episode.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2020)

I have struggled mentally. Working all the way through has had benefits (not stuck indoors most of every day in lockdown) and good to help those fighting the pandemic as best I could but I think from a mental perspective it is only the last month or so when we'd done the de-briefing on what went well/badly and planned for a second wave and we all had a lull has made me realise how mentally and physically tired I am.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is not standard practice to test partners or contacts of cases, which I think is a huge oversight and I have moaned about it many times here.

Many of the people who get these auto-immune conditions are Covid-antibody negative, so it may be nothing to do with Covid, or they could have had an immunological response which did not result in antibodies. This is common among younger people and is probably because much of their immune response is driven by T-cells. T-cells are also implicated in the pathology of many immune conditions. so could be cross reactivity of some sort or an effect which occurs as collateral damage during an immune-activated episode.
		
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No disrespect in any way shape or form, But I didn’t have a clue What most of that meant. However Ave read it to Missis T and she has done nowt but shake her head in agreement. But more importantly explained it to me in a village idiot fashion.
Suffice to say it explains why some Covid tests could be negative when in actual fact they could of been positive. Me thinks the long term effects of this Covid could be a generation or two thing.


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			No disrespect in any way shape or form, But I didn’t have a clue What most of that meant. However Ave read it to Missis T and she has done nowt but shake her head in agreement. But more importantly explained it to me in a village idiot fashion.
Suffice to say it explains why some Covid tests could be negative when in actual fact they could of been positive. Me thinks the long term effects of this Covid could be a generation or two thing.
		
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I agree - Covid is doing a lot more than to put people into hospital or give them a nasty cough. It is a complex virus with multiple effects, some of which we have no idea about currently. It could cause effects in all major organs systems and accelerate medium or long term failure.


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## robinthehood (Oct 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Got a message through today on the Covid app saying I had been in contact with someone who has Covid. It was a couple of hours after a PP put on our what’s app group that he had Covid. Played a round with him last Tuesday. No suprise where the contact was then. Anyway that’s not a problem at all, 9 days isolation as per the app says.
But, I spoke to another PP who played a round today and played with me on Tuesday. They were on about it at the course after today’s round and a few lads said “ stuff it we won’t sign on with the app when we get to the course”. What the hell is that all about. I could scream.
		
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You can ignore the app if you want.


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## IanM (Oct 20, 2020)

Back in lockdown from Friday...off to play golf now in case it's the last round of the year!

Totally identify with Homer's comments above...I thought working without travel would be much easier.  It might be, but it's harder in other ways


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## GB72 (Oct 20, 2020)

Have to say that the idea of a lockdown now is far more concerning than it was before and my sympathies are with those who have had lockdowns confirmed.

Lockdown was bearable in the height of summer. Could spend time in the garden, going out for a walk for an hour in the sunshine was lovely, even queuing outside supermarkets etc, the staples of lockdown, were bearable during a nice summer. Transfer all that to cold and wet weather, no incentive to go outside, queuing outside shops in the wind and rain plus the added cost for some of having the heating on all day and lockdown just appears far more daunting now.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 20, 2020)

I have to admit it has been tough this year - dealing with a divorce and house sale along with working from home as well as trying to be Captain at my club.  The later has taken a back seat the past two months and my Vice-Captain has pretty much taken over running things the way he wants.  I just cannot be bothered with it but most members are totally understanding.

So I really understand people having mental issues over all of this.  Once I have sold my house and put an offer in on one I want down in Devon, I can move on a little further.   I have so much sympathy for those with large families in small properties or with job issues.


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## Rooter (Oct 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Did these people choose to die out of hospital or was it due to them not having the choice.
		
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My uncle died of pancreatic cancer 2 weeks ago at home, he had refused palliative care rehoming so you could argue he chose home.


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## garyinderry (Oct 20, 2020)

3 cases at work today.   First confirmed we have had.  

2 non confirmed during first wave. 


Local hospital is under pressure. 


Not looking good in Derry on the whole.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			3 cases at work today.   First confirmed we have had. 

2 non confirmed during first wave.


Local hospital is under pressure.


Not looking good in Derry on the whole.
		
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My SiL is a senior doctor at Altnagelvin and she says it is much worse than that. The hospital is at breaking point.


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## garyinderry (Oct 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			My SiL is a senior doctor at Altnagelvin and she says it is much worse than that. The hospital is at breaking point.
		
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I'd well believe it as I know 4 people today alone who have contracted the virus. 


Very few got it first wave so its sweeping through the city like wildfire.


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## Mudball (Oct 20, 2020)

Played golf after a long time. Met 4 folks from work. We meet almost every day/week over video. 
But it was brilliant to see them in person. All having mental issues of wfh and working around families. It has its plus side but there is also a limit to how long we can be away from social structures. 

Indeed man is a social animal


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## GB72 (Oct 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Played golf after a long time. Met 4 folks from work. We meet almost every day/week over video.
But it was brilliant to see them in person. All having mental issues of wfh and working around families. It has its plus side but there is also a limit to how long we can be away from social structures.

Indeed man is a social animal
		
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Agree with that, during lockdown people in my village put a table and chairs on the driveway then they could chat with people walking past on their hour exercise. Really helped having a little social contact. As mentioned before though, a lot of these things are just not attractive options outside of Summer. Going to be tough for those locked down.


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## Mudball (Oct 20, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agree with that, during lockdown people in my village put a table and chairs on the driveway then they could chat with people walking past on their hour exercise. Really helped having a little social contact. As mentioned before though, a lot of these things are just not attractive options outside of Summer. Going to be tough for those locked down.
		
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Spare a thought for the medicos and frontliners. Forced to fight without kit, too many regulations, too much pain, despair and death around them. Workplace for them is tough and equally bad situation at home. My GP and wife both have recovered from Covid. No break since then from work. 

As one our friend says, he is ready for a beach holiday .. just get out of the city and find some sun


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## GB72 (Oct 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Spare a thought for the medicos and frontliners. Forced to fight without kit, too many regulations, too much pain, despair and death around them. Workplace for them is tough and equally bad situation at home. My GP and wife both have recovered from Covid. No break since then from work.

As one our friend says, he is ready for a beach holiday .. just get out of the city and find some sun
		
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Not had a day off work since Xmas last year, as well as my own job been working with other departments writing wills for those with Covid or in high risk jobs (as well as those who have been alerted to the need to be prepared given current circumstances). Not sure why my concern for lockdown being a tougher prospect this time immediately brings about the assumption that I am not in favour of it (actually I think at least Tier 2 nationwide is needed) or that I have no consideration for those in frontline jobs.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 20, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Have to say that the idea of a lockdown now is far more concerning than it was before and my sympathies are with those who have had lockdowns confirmed.

Lockdown was bearable in the height of summer. Could spend time in the garden, going out for a walk for an hour in the sunshine was lovely, even queuing outside supermarkets etc, the staples of lockdown, were bearable during a nice summer. Transfer all that to cold and wet weather, no incentive to go outside, queuing outside shops in the wind and rain plus the added cost for some of having the heating on all day and lockdown just appears far more daunting now.
		
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I think that we will all be in lockdown soon, pretty much like we were in March. Agree that the prospect of it in winter is not great, and to be honest I'm as little impacted as most people really. 

If you throw in the subject you must not speak of that doesn't seem to be going that swimmingly at the moment, I fear we could be in for a troublesome winter that will test the last remaining vestiges of any national unity we have left to the limit.


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## Mudball (Oct 20, 2020)

I had missed this news back in March. Since there was a few posts on letting the old die.... apparently it was also the view of a few powerful people on that side of the Atlantic  

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan-patrick-coronavirus-grandparents


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 20, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I had missed this news back in March. Since there was a few posts on letting the old die.... apparently it was also the view of a few powerful people on that side of the Atlantic

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/03/dan-patrick-coronavirus-grandparents

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I'm probably going to regret saying this and he may be a psychopath, but it depends a bit on how you interpret his remarks. For example he said

_'I just think there are lots of grandparents out there in this country, like me, I have six grandchildren, that what we all care about and what we love more than anything are those children. And I want to live smart and see through this, but I don’t want the whole country to be sacrificed_'

and to be honest my parents have said something similar. Of course they want to survive, they will take all sensible precautions but they also are willing to manage the risk themselves. No one is asking them to sacrifice themselves and make them go out and expose themselves to it unnecessarily. But on the other hand they seem happy for my daughter to be able to go out and meet her friends if it means their bowls evening is stopped for the time being.

I'd be more worried about politicians that misrepresent the risks and downplay the importance of taking sensible precautions, rather than one that understands that but puts a point over about how to potentially manage the risk.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 20, 2020)

Can I put a fiver on someone on here posting a social media video of Mancs all partying in the streets, dancing like Bez and chanting rude things about the government come Thursday night?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think that we will all be in lockdown soon, pretty much like we were in March. Agree that the prospect of it in winter is not great, and to be honest I'm as little impacted as most people really.

If you throw in the subject you must not speak of that doesn't seem to be going that swimmingly at the moment, I fear we could be in for a troublesome winter that will test the last remaining vestiges of any national unity we have left to the limit.
		
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I fear and my personal feelings about and with all that is going on now with coronavirus, and with that which is to come, our country is heading for deep problems and it is unfortunate that I must keep my personal concerns and despairs over the causes of the chaos under wraps. So much for all the promises.  Anyway I can shout at the TV until my wife tells me to shut up.  But just personally - I feel very worried about the future of our younger people and of and for the country. That is just my opinion. Other will have a different view. I am not asking or looking for any debate.


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## garyinderry (Oct 20, 2020)

Work closed for 2 weeks.   

Relieved.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 20, 2020)

In terms of trying to preserve mental health, and it has in some respects been a struggle, Tuesday evening is the most important evening of the week; it's quiz night.  One of our office ladies has taken it upon herself to try & herd the team cats on Tuesdays for a "pub quiz" via Zoom.  Most of us take it in turns to act as quiz mistress or master and devise the questions, but it's as much an opportunity to see the faces that we are missing and take the mickey out of each other.  We've even had one of our senior managers come for one night and become a permanent fixture, and her sister has joined in which has led to an invitation to another competition with other team members.

If Covid has done nothing else it has certainly reminded us what is actually important in life, and it's not a new driver.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 20, 2020)

Well being of the staff has been given a high priority by the trust and that has been a very good thing. I think a lot of people both in and out of the NHS and their families are going to be living with the effects of this disease for years to come


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I put a fiver on someone on here posting a social media video of Mancs all partying in the streets, dancing like Bez and chanting rude things about the government come Thursday night?
		
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Of course you can but why. Would it be OK if they did party?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 20, 2020)

Be nice to know the thoughts of some fellow Mancs on the situation re what’s happening in Manchester.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Be nice to know the thoughts of some fellow Mancs on the situation re what’s happening in Manchester.
		
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Ian Brown seems to have a lot to say on the subject. But like his live singing, a lot of it falls quite flat.


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## bluewolf (Oct 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Be nice to know the thoughts of some fellow Mancs on the situation re what’s happening in Manchester.
		
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Andy Burnham had, and still has my full support. In fact, of all the people I’ve spoken to regarding this, he has almost unanimous support in his fight to protect the lowest paid from the effects of this tier 3 lockdown.

The one thing that doesn’t have my support is some of the terrible national journalism reporting this situation. They’ve continuously misrepresented AB’s position and have attempted to smear him and the other GM Leaders.

I won’t go further as I would risk venturing into a Political discussion, and we all know that this forum as a whole is incapable of adult discussion in this area..........


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Andy Burnham had, and still has my full support. In fact, of all the people I’ve spoken to regarding this, he has almost unanimous support in his fight to protect the lowest paid from the effects of this tier 3 lockdown.

The one thing that doesn’t have my support is some of the terrible national journalism reporting this situation. They’ve continuously misrepresented AB’s position and have attempted to smear him and the other GM Leaders.

I won’t go further as I would risk venturing into a Political discussion, and we all know that this forum as a whole is incapable of adult discussion in this area..........
		
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In all honesty your response endorses what I have thought re AB and his handling of this. The bit about the reporting of this does not suprise me one bit.


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			If Covid has done nothing else it has certainly reminded us what is actually important in life, and it's not a new driver.
		
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Maybe not a new driver ....................... but a set of irons ??


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Ian Brown seems to have a lot to say on the subject. But like his live singing, a lot of it falls quite flat.
		
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Ian Brown is a great singer, I have all The Stone Roses and several solo albums, but as a commentator on Covid he is a complete moron who should be ignored. See also Noel Gallagher.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Maybe not a new driver ....................... but a set of irons ??
		
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😂👍


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## chrisd (Oct 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			, but as a commentator on Covid he is a complete moron who should be ignored. See also Noel Gallagher.
		
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Add almost every "celebrity" especially Lilly Allen and Gary Lineker


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Add almost every "celebrity" especially Lilly Allen and Gary Lineker
		
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Well, I don't know what Lily Allen or Gary Lineker had to say on the subject, but some celebrities are more intelligent than others and appear to apply critical reasoning better. Ian Brown has never been accused of letting his intellect get the better of him.

I like Lineker, who seems like an intelligent man and shows some wit in some of the tweets I have seen, and he doesn't like Piers Morgan, so he has that going for him. But I haven't followed his Covid opinions, although I expect he encourages people to be careful.

As a Lineker golf aside, I won a magazine comp and a place in The Sportsman's Challenge, a sort of celeb-am with sports stars (Botham, Lineker, Dennis Taylor, John Conteh etc) at Stoke Park a few years back. There was a longest drive on one of the holes, nobody in my group got near and as we walked past the wooden marker post with a board with the names on it, noted the name of the then winning drive. A few yards up the fairway, we heard a tee shot crack and a ball came flying up the fairway, bounced about 2 yards short of the marker post, hit it flush on the board and fell back a foot short. It would have comfortably beaten the then winning drive if it hadn't hit the marker.

Later at the presentation, the name of the winner was called out and it was the bloke whose name we had seen. Then we heard a voice from the next table saying "Damn, I was just a foot behind him". It was Gary Lineker. "Shall we tell him?", I asked my playing partner. "I am a Liverpool fan, yes, lets" he said, so we did. Gary was not pleased. Strong language was used.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I won’t go further as I would risk venturing into a Political discussion, and we all know that this forum as a whole is incapable of adult discussion in this area..........
		
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I see that includes everyone 👍


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## huds1475 (Oct 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I see that includes everyone 👍
		
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No it doesn't


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			No it doesn't
		
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100% doesn't


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			100% doesn't
		
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"As a whole" 100% does 🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 21, 2020)

It 100% does
If we spot a post that is verging towards political we will remove it and warn the poster.
If that poster posts more political stuff then it’s infraction time


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## fundy (Oct 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, I don't know what Lily Allen or Gary Lineker had to say on the subject, but some celebrities are more intelligent than others and appear to apply critical reasoning better. Ian Brown has never been accused of letting his intellect get the better of him.

*I like Lineker, who seems like an intelligent man and shows some wit in some of the tweets I have seen*, and he doesn't like Piers Morgan, so he has that going for him. But I haven't followed his Covid opinions,* although I expect he encourages people to be careful.*

As a Lineker golf aside, I won a magazine comp and a place in The Sportsman's Challenge, a sort of celeb-am with sports stars (Botham, Lineker, Dennis Taylor, John Conteh etc) at Stoke Park a few years back. There was a longest drive on one of the holes, nobody in my group got near and as we walked past the wooden marker post with a board with the names on it, noted the name of the then winning drive. A few yards up the fairway, we heard a tee shot crack and a ball came flying up the fairway, bounced about 2 yards short of the marker post, hit it flush on the board and fell back a foot short. It would have comfortably beaten the then winning drive if it hadn't hit the marker.

Later at the presentation, the name of the winner was called out and it was the bloke whose name we had seen. Then we heard a voice from the next table saying "Damn, I was just a foot behind him". It was Gary Lineker. "Shall we tell him?", I asked my playing partner. "I am a Liverpool fan, yes, lets" he said, so we did. Gary was not pleased. Strong language was used.
		
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The same Lineker that tweeted about people being snowflakes if theyre not able to wear a mask in a shop........

then a few days later goes into a shop and doesnt wear a mask......

and then claims its because hes getting old

do me a favour, another mouthpiece who thinks he can constantly preach what other people should be doing but doesnt think it actually applies to him. Also see Lily Allen!!!!


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## robinthehood (Oct 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			The same Lineker that tweeted about people being snowflakes if theyre not able to where a mask in a shop........

then a few days later goes into a shop and doesnt wear a mask......

and then claims its because hes getting old

do me a favour, another mouthpiece who thinks he can constantly preach what other people should be doing but doesnt think it actually applies to him. Also see Lily Allen!!!!
		
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He forgot to put it on, then put it on when he realized. Non story made out to a big deal by some in the media and jumped upon by others.


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## fundy (Oct 21, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			He forgot to put it on, then put it on when he realized. Non story made out to a big deal by some in the media and jumped upon by others.
		
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If hes going to sit so high up in his ivory tower then he needs to be whiter than white, hardly his first time of forgetting to practise what he preaches is it


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## oxymoron (Oct 21, 2020)

looks like we are having an outbreak at work , 5 confirmed so far , strangely management have been told to keep quiet and not inform the rest of the facility ,,,,,,
bit pissed as surely if we tell people we can enhance our protocols and increase peoples awareness and adherence to procedures


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2020)

Wise words from Jason Leitch.

The changes introduced a month ago are working, but it is slow.
Remember whatever your actions are today they will impact on everyone in 4 weeks time.


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			The same Lineker that tweeted about people being snowflakes if theyre not able to wear a mask in a shop........

then a few days later goes into a shop and doesnt wear a mask......

and then claims its because hes getting old

do me a favour, another mouthpiece who thinks he can constantly preach what other people should be doing but doesnt think it actually applies to him. Also see Lily Allen!!!!
		
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Yeah, well I am not his official spokesman and don't follow his every activity, but most of what I see seems reasonable. I am sure he has erred, most of us have. I don't think what you have described constitutes a pattern of behaviour.


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## IanM (Oct 21, 2020)

Poor old Lineker  - has to toe a careful line, or will lose his livelihood.  Never an easy place to be!  

Wales in lockdown, society day at a top course in Surrey.   Do you arrange a work meeting up the road for that day, or not?


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## IanM (Oct 21, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			looks like we are having an outbreak at work , 5 confirmed so far , strangely management have been told to keep quiet and not inform the rest of the facility ,,,,,,
bit pissed as surely if we tell people we can enhance our protocols and increase peoples awareness and adherence to procedures
		
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I'd be on the phone to local paper/radio....


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## huds1475 (Oct 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Be nice to know the thoughts of some fellow Mancs on the situation re what’s happening in Manchester.
		
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Was interesting. I was hoping would open a debate about decentralising power and put a spotlight on a quick circuitbreak.

Instead descended into political posturing, character undermining,  misinformation and twitter nonsense. In short a microcosm of all the rubbish in society, news, politics etc...

Think Burnham was right to do everything he could for people, but its a delicate balancing act. If Tier 3 actually is a viable solution then delaying implementation couldn't have gone on  for too long.

I'm hoping those who are less 'socially conscious' don't use the debate and outcome as an excuse to disobey the new rules.


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## User62651 (Oct 21, 2020)

Seems to be more expert views like this as time goes on. Did they always know this and just drip fed the likely real outcome to a scared public over time to ease people into it?
Depressing read.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...to-be-eradicated-sage-scientist-says-12110135


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems to be more expert views like this as time goes on. Did they always know this and just drip fed the likely real outcome to a scared public over time to ease people into it?
Depressing read.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...to-be-eradicated-sage-scientist-says-12110135

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Is there anything in that article that is surprising. It is fairly obvious that there will be at least another 10K deaths and the virus will probably be around permenently but in lesser amounts.  As he says a vaccination will make a considerable difference but Covid will linger on.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 21, 2020)

Just seen in Twitter the Irish courses are closing 😞


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## IainP (Oct 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems to be more expert views like this as time goes on. Did they always know this and just drip fed the likely real outcome to a scared public over time to ease people into it?
Depressing read.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...to-be-eradicated-sage-scientist-says-12110135

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Perhaps I'm in the minority but didn't read anything that hadn't been my view since March. Agree it isn't a positive piece.


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Seems to be more expert views like this as time goes on. Did they always know this and just drip fed the likely real outcome to a scared public over time to ease people into it?
Depressing read.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...to-be-eradicated-sage-scientist-says-12110135

Click to expand...

Humans have encountered and learned to live with many bacteria and viruses. Coronaviruses have been around for quite some time and this is a new one. This is the sharp end of our introduction to it, but it will get easier. People have died and are unwell, but like with flu, as newer versions or strains emerge, we will have a growing degree of residual immunity and fewer people will get it each season, possibly assisted by a vaccination, maybe even one bundled in with the flu vaccine. Living with it evermore doesn't mean some sort of constant lockdown or continual shielding of the vulnerable. We have also eliminated some viruses. Polio and smallpox used to be huge health problems. Polio is almost gone, smallpox has gone.


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## Slab (Oct 21, 2020)

How does someone (anyone) even get that far into a shop without a mask on? 
You don't need a good memory if you don't get in to begin with


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2020)

BBC 1 news seem to have stopped reporting the English daily CV19 figures, I wonder why?


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## fundy (Oct 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC 1 news seem to have stopped reporting the English daily CV19 figures, I wonder why?
		
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no you dont, you know exactly why you think it is lol, spit it out!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			How does someone (anyone) even get that far into a shop without a mask on?
You don't need a good memory if you don't get in to begin with
		
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I am very careful because of my wife's health but I only just stopped myself entering our local chemist without wearing a mask.
Another time a woman was mortified that she had left her mask in the car and shouted instructions from the door.
An offer to borrow mine was refused with a strange look before she realised I was joking.


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## Slab (Oct 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am very careful because of my wife's health but I only just stopped myself entering our local chemist without wearing a mask.
Another time a woman was mortified that she had left her mask in the car and shouted instructions from the door.
An offer to borrow mine was refused with a strange look before she realised I was joking.

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I kinda meant entry should've been denied at the door
No mask, no shopping, its not difficult


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2020)

The wife and I having to travel 10 miles to get our yearly Flu jabs on different days , because our own doctors surgery aren't doing it this year, because of Covid.
Fortunately we can drive, but some poor old souls that don't drive will need to get 3 busses or pay £20 round trip taxi trip .
GPs seem to be getting off lightly compared to hospital staff.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			The wife and I having to travel 10 miles to get our yearly Flu jabs on different days , because our own doctors surgery aren't doing it this year, because of Covid.
Fortunately we can drive, but some poor old souls that don't drive will need to get 3 busses or pay £20 round trip taxi trip .
GPs seem to be getting off lightly compared to hospital staff.
		
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I had mine in the local pharmacy, do you have one closer.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			The same Lineker that tweeted about people being snowflakes if theyre not able to wear a mask in a shop........

then a few days later goes into a shop and doesnt wear a mask......

and then claims its because hes getting old

do me a favour, another mouthpiece who thinks he can constantly preach what other people should be doing but doesnt think it actually applies to him. Also see Lily Allen!!!!
		
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If we were holding everyone to the same high moral standards then you may have a point.

But it is clear  that old rules no longer apply. Show me anyone in power or who wants to be in power that never has made a mistake or has said one thing and done another as if the rules don't t apply to them.

So to be honest I'd be a bit more excited over people who have a lot more say and influence over society than a fried potato salesman or the daughter of someone who used to be famous in the 90s.


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## Crazyface (Oct 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			The wife and I having to travel 10 miles to get our yearly Flu jabs on different days , because our own doctors surgery aren't doing it this year, because of Covid.
Fortunately we can drive, but some poor old souls that don't drive will need to get 3 busses or pay £20 round trip taxi trip .
GPs seem to be getting off lightly compared to hospital staff.
		
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Why, if pubs (serving food) and restaurants can continue to stay open, why was there a moaning restaurant owner on ITV's Good Morning today? Work is still open. Shops are open. Just what the hell is shut? Level three only blocks you from seeing family at home or in the garden. Some would see this as a blessing. I just do not get it?


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## fundy (Oct 21, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			If we were holding everyone to the same high moral standards then you may have a point.

But it is clear that old rules no longer apply. Show me anyone in power or who wants to be in power that never has made a mistake or has said one thing and done another as if the rules don't t apply to them.

So to be honest I'd be a bit more excited over people who have a lot more say and influence over society than a* fried potato salesman *or the daughter of someone who used to be famous in the 90s.
		
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lol hes also the highest paid employee of the BBC and I expect more people actually watch/listen to him than those you are using to excuse him

I assume you wont be criticising anyone in power anymore as theyre "all at it"


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 21, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why, if pubs (serving food) and restaurants can continue to stay open, why was there a moaning restaurant owner on ITV's Good Morning today? Work is still open. Shops are open. Just what the hell is shut? Level three only blocks you from seeing family at home or in the garden. Some would see this as a blessing. *I just do not get it*?
		
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There's a surprise. 

You can't meet with anyone outside your household /support bubble in restaurants in Tier 3. That may have an impact on restaurants.


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## Mudball (Oct 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			The wife and I having to travel 10 miles to get our yearly Flu jabs on different days , because our own doctors surgery aren't doing it this year, because of Covid.
Fortunately we can drive, but some poor old souls that don't drive will need to get 3 busses or pay £20 round trip taxi trip .
GPs seem to be getting off lightly compared to hospital staff.
		
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I did mine at a local Boots...


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Why, if pubs (serving food) and restaurants can continue to stay open, why was there a moaning restaurant owner on ITV's Good Morning today? Work is still open. Shops are open. Just what the hell is shut? Level three only blocks you from seeing family at home or in the garden. Some would see this as a blessing. I just do not get it?
		
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Because they can’t get enough people in the restaurant to make it viable.
Due to the tier 3 rules.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			lol hes also the highest paid employee of the BBC and I expect more people actually watch/listen to him than those you are using to excuse him

I assume you wont be criticising anyone in power anymore as theyre "all at it"
		
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Personally I think there are more prominent people with a much bigger impact on the UK at this time who could be argued to have got away with doing something that to most people doesn't seem right, then what Gary Lineker did. Or whatever Lilly Allen has done.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I had mine in the local pharmacy, do you have one closer.
		
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Getting mine in Sainsbury’s pharmacy this Saturday.


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## fundy (Oct 21, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Personally I think there are more prominent people with a much bigger impact on the UK at this time who could be argued to have got away with doing something that to most people doesn't seem right, then what Gary Lineker did. Or whatever Lilly Allen has done.
		
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maybe there are, but whilst he continues to exploit his role and preach to the rest of us he can expect that some of us will judge him on what he preaches in the same way he is happy to judge the masses, rather than excuse it because there are others doing worse (go on you can say Boris, we know you want to say Boris)


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## Mudball (Oct 21, 2020)

I am itching to start a thread on the omnishambles around Child hunger. It is a societal problem that has been ducked up by politics. 

But new forum rules means I can’t start such conversation.


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## clubchamp98 (Oct 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am itching to start a thread on the omnishambles around Child hunger. It is a societal problem that has been ducked up by politics.

But new forum rules means I can’t start such conversation.
		
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It’s a disgrace in one of the richest nations on the planet.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I am itching to start a thread on the omnishambles around Child hunger. It is a societal problem that has been ducked up by politics.

But new forum rules means I can’t start such conversation.
		
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Why are you mentioning this in a thread asking how Corona virus has affected you?

You could start a thread on it as long as it addresses the issue without making it political.  Good luck with that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why are you mentioning this in a thread asking how Corona virus has affected you?
		
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Probably because Parliament has held a vote on extending free school meals during the crisis and like some of us he knows familes who’ll be affected, possible even friends of his kids(if he has them)

Does every post get the same scrutiny? I’m not sure some on here know Gary Lineker.🤷‍♂️


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			I kinda meant entry should've been denied at the door
No mask, no shopping, its not difficult
		
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unfortunaetly Slab to some it is, Ave just read a post on FB from a ” pal” who was disgusted he was told he would not be served in a local shop as he had no mask. He forgot. He is now having a rant  coz he has just got home from Tesco and has seen 9 folk without masks. Yet some folk are exempt. What does he not understand about that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Good news! A much needed measure and an issue that I'm sure unites everyone across the political landscape.
		
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I’d hope so! I now our local foodbank is struggling as demand has increased, we’ve ran collections at the Golf Club from members wishing to donate and a few members themselves have donated as individuals as well.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I had mine in the local pharmacy, do you have one closer.
		
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Only if we paid for it. Problem is it depends what district you doctor's surgery is, our surgery is in SLC and we stay half a mile over the boundary in NLC 
Annoyingly the clinic where NLC residents get there jab is only 1 mile away .


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I did mine at a local Boots...
		
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Did you have to pay if so how much ?


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## Old Skier (Oct 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Did you have to pay if so how much ?
		
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If you in the right category it’s free as far as I understand


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Did you have to pay if so how much ?
		
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I didn't have to pay at Boots


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably because Parliament has held a vote on extending free school meals during the crisis and like some of us he knows familes who’ll be affected, possible even friends of his kids(if he has them)

Does every post get the same scrutiny? I’m not sure some on here know Gary Lineker.🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

But they voted for it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But they voted for it.
		
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Today Parliament has voted against extending free school meals until Easter 2021 over school holiday’s.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't have to pay at Boots
		
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Thanks guys , I'll enquire tomorrow


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## pauljames87 (Oct 21, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Did you have to pay if so how much ?
		
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You don't have to pay if you normally get it free 

My wife and I went I paid £12 .. hers was free and even let our Dr know she had it so they won't call her in for it (asthma)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Today Parliament has voted against extending free school meals until Easter 2021 over school holiday’s.
		
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And by definition these children will be those of the poorest of society - and if a parent loses 1/3 of their take home due to Covid tiering work restrictions with UC top-up not going to arrive for 5 weeks after registering - well it’s going to be tough feeding these kids from the reduced family income, an income that was already pretty meagre, over the imminent school holidays.  Some are getting affected and will be affected by the coronavirus a lot more than I. Desperate situation for many now and coming over the coming months.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Today Parliament has voted against extending free school meals until Easter 2021 over school holiday’s.
		
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Yes, you are correct. I was thinking that the vote before the Summer holidays was still in force.


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## Captainron (Oct 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BBC 1 news seem to have stopped reporting the English daily CV19 figures, I wonder why?
		
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It’s still on their website so you can keep up to date there.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And by definition these children will be those of the poorest of society - and if a parent loses 1/3 of their take home due to Covid tiering work restrictions with UC top-up not going to arrive for 5 weeks after registering - well it’s going to be tough feeding these kids from the reduced family income, an income that was already pretty meagre, over the imminent school holidays.  Some are getting affected and will be affected by the coronavirus a lot more than I. Desperate situation for many now and coming over the coming months.
		
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Don't worry, the parents all spend their money on ipads and massive TVs apparently if that will help you sleep at night. You can't move for Range Rovers at the school drop off zone that the parents of free school meal kids are driving at our school.

And if we as a nation decided to spend money on helping to feed hungry children, money that is a minute fraction of what has been spent/wasted recently on various other stuff recently, then where will it all end? A slightly more fairer society?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2020)

Captainron said:



			It’s still on their website so you can keep up to date there.
		
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Why relegate it to the website, do the BBC not think the English public are interested in knowing the daily figures. especially at this crucial time.
The BBC  threatened to remove the Scots  daily Covid briefings and there was uproar.

BTW I know who Gary Linecar is but seldom watch him....Lily Allen no idea what she does. Singer perhaps?


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## Sweep (Oct 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Don't worry, the parents all spend their money on ipads and massive TVs apparently if that will help you sleep at night. You can't move for Range Rovers at the school drop off zone that the parents of free school meal kids are driving at our school.

And if we as a nation decided to spend money on helping to feed hungry children, money that is a minute fraction of what has been spent/wasted recently on various other stuff recently, then where will it all end? A slightly more fairer society?
		
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And there was me thinking political threads had been banned.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why relegate it to the website, do the BBC not think the English public are interested in knowing the daily figures. especially at this crucial time.
The BBC  threatened to remove the Scots  daily Covid briefings and there was uproar.

BTW I know who Gary Linecar is but seldom watch him....Lily Allen no idea what she does. Singer perhaps?
		
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The BBC give the figures every evening on the 10 o'clock news. Not sure which bulletin you are referring to but if you want the numbers then watch that programme.


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



*Don't worry, the parents all spend their money on ipads and massive TVs* apparently if that will help you sleep at night. You can't move for Range Rovers at the school drop off zone that the parents of free school meal kids are driving at our school.

And if we as a nation decided to spend money on helping to feed hungry children, money that is a minute fraction of what has been spent/wasted recently on various other stuff recently, then where will it all end? A slightly more fairer society?
		
Click to expand...

As someone who visits lots of households on a daily basis and has done for 30+ years, I can assure you that there are many many families like this, they have all the latest gear whilst their little ones crawl around in s**t.  I've been to houses where there's booze and fags galore on the kitchen table, but the house is a s**thole and the kids are in rags. It's not the majority no, but I've seen it far too often for it to be just a statistical oddity.
It really burns to see kids that have zero chance in life because of their parents complete inability to be decent human beings and who use the kids as an income stream in the form of benefits.

Edit:It's not a political statement, more a social one.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2020)

Sweep said:



			And there was me thinking political threads had been banned.
		
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As the mods always say, there's always the report button if you are sufficiently upset. Anyway, it was a comment on societal values during a pandemic, feeding hungry children during a pandemic is not a political issue as it has support from all sides. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1319172209403961346


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			As someone who visits lots of households on a daily basis and has done for 30+ years, I can assure you that there are many many families like this, they have all the latest gear whilst their little ones crawl around in s**t.  I've been to houses where there's booze and fags galore on the kitchen table, but the house is a s**thole and the kids are in rags. It's not the majority no, but I've seen it far too often for it to be just a statistical oddity.
It really burns to see kids that have zero chance in life because of their parents complete inability to be decent human beings and who use the kids as an income stream in the form of benefits.

Edit:It's not a political statement, more a social one.
		
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Oops, I seem to have taken the wrong turn. 

How do I get out of The Daily Mail forum and back to Golf Monthly?


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## robinthehood (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Oops, I seem to have taken the wrong turn.

How do I get out of The Daily Mail forum and back to Golf Monthly?
		
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Its a well documented fact that all those receiving benefits have the latest tech and go on a minimum of 2 holidays per year.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2020)

Sweep said:



			And there was me thinking political threads had been banned.
		
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Not political - simply expressing a concern for the poorest in our society and how they will cope through this.  And that concerns me if it doesn’t you.  If you think that such concerns are political then that’s your outlook.  It’s not mine.  And as far as UC being the panacea for all money concerns the poorest might have? yeh right. Try living off UC and see how it feels as an answer.  A clue.  It’s rubbish and very difficult.  And the coronavirus tiering is going to find a lot of our fellow citizens having to look to UC to keep ticking over.   It’s going to very very hard and dispiriting for them.


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Oops, I seem to have taken the wrong turn.

How do I get out of The Daily Mail forum and back to Golf Monthly?
		
Click to expand...

Deny reality all you like if it makes you feel better up there in that ivory tower.
But when you see it on a regular basis you realise that there is something amiss.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why relegate it to the website, do the BBC not think the English public are interested in knowing the daily figures. especially at this crucial time.
The BBC  threatened to remove the Scots  daily Covid briefings and there was uproar.

BTW I know who Gary Linecar is but seldom watch him....Lily Allen no idea what she does. Singer perhaps?
		
Click to expand...

CV19 stats were given in full on BBC News at Ten last night.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			Deny reality all you like if it makes you feel better up there in that ivory tower.
But when you see it on a regular basis you realise that there is something amiss.
		
Click to expand...

Which is maybe why there needs to be a way of ensuring that children get fed during holidays...this is about the hungry child - not the parent.


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is maybe why there needs to be a way of ensuring that children get fed during holidays...this is about the hungry child - not the parent.
		
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I completely agree, but in order to feed the child you have to go through the parent at some stage.


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## Sweep (Oct 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not political - simply expressing a concern for the poorest in our society and how they will cope through this.  And that concerns me if it doesn’t you.  If you think that such concerns are political then that’s your outlook.  It’s not mine.  And as far as UC being the panacea for all money concerns the poorest might have? yeh right. Try living off UC and see how it feels as an answer.  A clue.  It’s rubbish and very difficult.  And the coronavirus tiering is going to find a lot of our fellow citizens having to look to UC to keep ticking over.   It’s going to very very hard and dispiriting for them.
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say it didn’t concern me?
Where did I mention UC?


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Thanks guys , I'll enquire tomorrow 

Click to expand...

Update , Boots in Scotland have suspended giving all flu jabs, due to unprecedented demand and stock availability. HID has to attend her designated clinic at 7 pm, must be in the same the health board area as our doctors surgery


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## Sweep (Oct 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			As the mods always say, there's always the report button if you are sufficiently upset. Anyway, it was a comment on societal values during a pandemic, feeding hungry children during a pandemic is not a political issue as it has support from all sides. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1319172209403961346

Click to expand...

Of course it’s political. They even had a vote on it in the HoC last night.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 22, 2020)

T


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			CV19 stats were given in full on BBC News at Ten last night.
		
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Ten is far too late for DFT, he's put to bed very early .


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			Deny reality all you like if it makes you feel better up there in that ivory tower.
But when you see it on a regular basis you realise that there is something amiss.
		
Click to expand...

I deny your prejudiced and condescending attitude towards genuinely struggling people, of whom there are far too many in this country. 

You didn't tell us how you happen to be in so many houses - burglar, pizza delivery man, bailiff, social worker, health visitor?

If you want to tell me off-forum, you can email me at ethan@ivorytower.com


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## Sweep (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I deny your prejudiced and condescending attitude towards genuinely struggling people, of whom there are far too many in this country.

You didn't tell us how you happen to be in so many houses - burglar, pizza delivery man, bailiff, social worker, health visitor?

If you want to tell me off-forum, you can email me at ethan@ivorytower.com

Click to expand...

I don’t think that is a real email address😂


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Its a well documented fact that all those receiving benefits have the latest tech and go on a minimum of 2 holidays per year.
		
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There are plenty of people receiving state handouts who are doing pretty well. There are several restaurants and bars subsidised by the public, located right next to Big Ben in London. Some of those inside the adjacent buildings earn a pretty good salary and have a few better paying side jobs too, and when they get kicked out of the jobs, often get more directorships and/or a nice ermine cloak.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			Deny reality all you like if it makes you feel better up there in that ivory tower.
But when you see it on a regular basis you realise that there is something amiss.
		
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You also said it was the minority, and there are a minority of scum bags in all levels of society and there are children suffering at all levels as well.


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You also said it was the minority, and there are a minority of scum bags in all levels of society and there are children suffering at all levels as well.
		
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There is a saying 'better to let 10 guilty men walk free than jail one innocent one'. Whilst the numbers are different, the principles is that we are willing to tolerate a few people who rip off the system (although on a fraction of the scale as many rich tax dodgers) if that is necessary to get to the ones who really need help.


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I deny your prejudiced and condescending attitude towards genuinely struggling people, of whom there are far too many in this country.

You didn't tell us how you happen to be in so many houses - burglar, pizza delivery man, bailiff, social worker, health visitor?

If you want to tell me off-forum, you can email me at ethan@ivorytower.com

Click to expand...

Ok, please try and ditch the smug juvenile attitude for a minute. 

What part of what I said did you take objection to and why? Do you really think it's not true and is just something I've read in the Daily Mail and repeated here just for kicks?
Do you think I'm just some disgruntled scrote that enjoys having a go at the poor for no reason?
I can assure you I'm not being condescending, nor prejudiced (if anything, read your post again, pot/kettle), as I actually came from a poor background and have suffered many of the shortcomings as a child that are being talked about here.
I'm genuinely baffled by your attitude, having read some of your previous postings you seem fairly normal so it's a bit odd.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Of course it’s political. They even had a vote on it in the HoC last night.
		
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Literally everything that is happening in society, including how the pandemic is impacting you or I, has a connection to actions taken by the current or past governments in the house of commons.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is a saying 'better to let 10 guilty men walk free than jail one innocent one'. Whilst the numbers are different, the principles is that we are willing to tolerate a few people who rip off the system (although on a fraction of the scale as many rich tax dodgers) if that is necessary to get to the ones who really need help.
		
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The problem with that saying is that it’s normally those in positions abusing the system that make those decisions.


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You also said it was the minority, and there are a minority of scum bags in all levels of society and there are children suffering at all levels as well.
		
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Correct, it is a minority. But it's not as small as some would like to believe.
I do it see it on a regular basis and it upsets and angers me that there's nothing I can do about it. 
I don't give a cr*p about the parents having ipads  and holidays, but please just feed and clothe your kids properly for Gods sake!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Where did I say it didn’t concern me?
Where did I mention UC?
		
Click to expand...

You didn’t - I did...

...so do you support providing children of the poorest with free food during their school holidays.


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			Ok, please try and ditch the smug juvenile attitude for a minute.

What part of what I said did you take objection to and why? Do you really think it's not true and is just something I've read in the Daily Mail and repeated here just for kicks?
*Do you think I'm just some disgruntled scrote that enjoys having a go at the poor for no reason?*
I can assure you I'm not being condescending, nor prejudiced (if anything, read your post again, pot/kettle), as I actually came from a poor background and have suffered many of the shortcomings as a child that are being talked about here.
I'm genuinely baffled by your attitude, having read some of your previous postings you seem fairly normal so it's a bit odd.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps. Let's review:

"As someone who visits lots of households on a daily basis and has done for 30+ years, I can assure you that there are many many families like this, they have all the latest gear whilst their little ones crawl around in s**t. I've been to houses where there's booze and fags galore on the kitchen table, but the house is a s**thole and the kids are in rags. It's not the majority no, but I've seen it far too often for it to be just a statistical oddity.
It really burns to see kids that have zero chance in life because of their parents complete inability to be decent human beings and who use the kids as an income stream in the form of benefits."

So (a) certainly having a go at the poor for indulging in the latest gear whilst neglecting their children. Kids in rags, eh? Crawl around in s**t. Are you sure you weren't watching a Charles Dickens adaptation and thought it was real life? Any of them going up chimneys? 

(b) for no reason - I have no idea how reliable your story is, it may be complete bollox (hence I asked for some idea of why you are in these homes) or what the psychology is behind your reasons for this attack on a broad swathe of the population. That is for you and your therapist to discuss, but I simply don't accept that characterisation of the poor. 

I grew up in a Council estate and know how ordinary families struggle. Some of them get it wrong, some are derailed by external events but most do a damn good job protecting their children from the stress and hard work of the daily grind and trying their damnedest to get a better future. Your statement was callous, mean-spirited and unfair, and I utterly reject it.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			I completely agree, but in order to feed the child you have to go through the parent at some stage.
		
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But is a global pandemic that will hit the poorer in our society more than the luckier amongst us really the right time to try and teach them a lesson? And in some way, possibly unintentionally, come across as blaming parents for kids being on free school meals to the extent that the parents could easily do something about it at the current time?

Have no issue with the fact some parents are feckless. But have a big issue with that being used in any way to justify not helping the kids that need help in the current pandemic. Which is how it can come across.


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## patricks148 (Oct 22, 2020)

can we please steer clear of Politic here please gents.. Thank you


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			Correct, it is a minority. But it's not as small as some would like to believe.
I do it see it on a regular basis and it upsets and angers me that there's nothing I can do about it.
I don't give a cr*p about the parents having ipads  and holidays, but please just feed and clothe your kids properly for Gods sake!
		
Click to expand...

I’d also argue it’s not as large or as widespread as others make out either.
I haven’t got as much experience as you from what you’ve said, but I certainly have too much to see those type are outnumbered by the genuine at the bottom struggling to do their best.


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## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d also argue it’s not as large or as widespread as others make out either.
I haven’t got as much experience as you from what you’ve said, but I certainly have too much to see those type are outnumbered by the genuine at the bottom struggling to do their best.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I do have some (tangential) experience of this sub-sector, and it is a small minority. However it is larger than some people think.

However, I'd just once like to see as much effort applied to complaining about all other sectors of Society that rip off the Tax Payer as is applied to those at the bottom of the ladder. Isn't there some sort of "Tax Payers Alliance" that should be looking into this?


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Perhaps. Let's review:

"As someone who visits lots of households on a daily basis and has done for 30+ years, I can assure you that there are many many families like this, they have all the latest gear whilst their little ones crawl around in s**t. I've been to houses where there's booze and fags galore on the kitchen table, but the house is a s**thole and the kids are in rags. It's not the majority no, but I've seen it far too often for it to be just a statistical oddity.
It really burns to see kids that have zero chance in life because of their parents complete inability to be decent human beings and who use the kids as an income stream in the form of benefits."

So (a) certainly having a go at the poor for indulging in the latest gear whilst neglecting their children. Kids in rags, eh? Crawl around in s**t. Are you sure you weren't watching a Charles Dickens adaptation and thought it was real life? Any of them going up chimneys?

(b) for no reason - I have no idea how reliable your story is, it may be complete bollox (hence I asked for some idea of why you are in these homes) or what the psychology is behind your reasons for this attack on a broad swathe of the population. That is for you and your therapist to discuss, but I simply don't accept that characterisation of the poor.

I grew up in a Council estate and know how ordinary families struggle. Some of them get it wrong, some are derailed by external events but most do a damn good job protecting their children from the stress and hard work of the daily grind and trying their damnedest to get a better future. Your statement was callous, mean-spirited and unfair, and I utterly reject it.
		
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You clearly don't believe these things happen, and just find it easier to attack someone who doesn't comply with your version of reality rather than deal with it.
Fine, you crack on living in your make believe world, where everyone is wonderful and the world would be great if we could all just be nice.

I did try to have an intelligent discussion about it but as you're incapable I'll leave it there.


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			But is a global pandemic that will hit the poorer in our society more than the luckier amongst us really the right time to try and teach them a lesson? And in some way, possibly unintentionally, come across as blaming parents for kids being on free school meals to the extent that the parents could easily do something about it at the current time?

Have no issue with the fact some parents are feckless. But have a big issue with that being used in any way to justify not helping the kids that need help in the current pandemic. Which is how it can come across.
		
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I never said anything about teaching them a lesson, nor did I want to punish anyone. (please show me if I did).
I also agree the kids should be helped.
But my point is how do you go about that when you have "feckless" parents who won't or can't be bothered to engage?
I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but it's difficult to know the best way to go about it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			I never said anything about teaching them a lesson, nor did I want to punish anyone. (please show me if I did).
I also agree the kids should be helped.
But my point is how do you go about that when yo have "feckless" parents who won't or can't be bothered to engage?
I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but it's difficult to know the best way to go about it.
		
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What you don’t do is risk child hunger amongst all the poorest families because of the struggles of a minority of parents. One of the most basic responsibilities of a civilised society is doing whatever is required to keep children fed - especially through the most difficult times...and yes - that may well require suspension of judgemental feelings...the money is available - I have just heard some bloke in a suit tell us of it as it will be spent elsewhere - and that is fine - but it should not divert our gaze from that which is most important.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 22, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately, I do have some (tangential) experience of this sub-sector, and it is a small minority. However it is larger than some people think.

However, I'd just once like to see as much effort applied to complaining about all other sectors of Society that rip off the Tax Payer as is applied to those at the bottom of the ladder. Isn't there some sort of "Tax Payers Alliance" that should be looking into this?
		
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No doubting it’s a problem, but I’d argue it’s the quantifying of the size of the problem that is difficult.

I might go weeks doing casework for the RBL and meet “what I’d consider” deserving cases, I can then go weeks were it seems I’d meet, “again what I’d consider” every other case being a low life (being polite) trying to take advantage of the system, both the RBL’s and Benefit System.

Sadly a lot of the low lifes are not uneducated.


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## KenL (Oct 22, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			can we please steer clear of Politic here please gents.. Thank you
		
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Maybe remind people to be nice to one another too.


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## Sweep (Oct 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You didn’t - I did...

...so do you support providing children of the poorest with free food during their school holidays.
		
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As you know, like you I am a political person and you won’t be surprised to learn I have an opinion on this. However, even though I enjoyed our political debates, as I am following the rules and indeed understand the reasoning behind making the rule, I won’t discuss them on this thread. This is of course unlike others who have politicised a thread because they just can’t help themselves.


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			You clearly don't believe these things happen, and just find it easier to attack someone who doesn't comply with your version of reality rather than deal with it.
Fine, you crack on living in your make believe world, where everyone is wonderful and the world would be great if we could all just be nice.

I did try to have an intelligent discussion about it but as you're incapable I'll leave it there.
		
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Sorry, I missed the intelligent parts for the stereotyping, unsubstantiated generalisations and contempt for the poor. 

I am perfectly capable of dissecting a set of spurious and unfounded arguments. I do it for a living. 

Let's indeed leave it there as you are unwilling to properly explain your rant.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2020)

Lazkir said:



			I never said anything about teaching them a lesson, nor did I want to punish anyone. (please show me if I did).
I also agree the kids should be helped.
But my point is how do you go about that when you have "feckless" parents who won't or can't be bothered to engage?
*I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but it's difficult to know the best way to go about it.*

Click to expand...

One may argue that helping the kids with vouchers would be a good start. The challenge is that the 'ipad and TV' argument is used by those who want to deny the kids these vouchers in the holidays as a reason /excuse /justification. 

Saying something is difficult (which it is) to me is not a reason not to at least do a simple basic thing that will help in difficult times. It is such an easy, and I'm my opinion, humane thing that any civilised society should do. 

People can make a perfectly reasonable point that there are feckless parents out there that we need to address, but in the mean time let's urgently help vulnerable kids in a time of a global pandemic.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 22, 2020)

Guys
Handbags away please


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## SatchFan (Oct 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			One may argue that helping the kids with vouchers would be a good start. The challenge is that the 'ipad and TV' argument is used by those who want to deny the kids these vouchers in the holidays as a reason /excuse /justification.

Saying something is difficult (which it is) to me is not a reason not to at least do a simple basic thing that will help in difficult times. It is such an easy, and I'm my opinion, humane thing that any civilised society should do.

People can make a perfectly reasonable point that there are feckless parents out there that we need to address, but in the mean time let's urgently help vulnerable kids in a time of a global pandemic.
		
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Agree with the voucher idea. It's a bit cumbersome but helps bypass potential issues.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2020)

Sweep said:



			As you know, like you I am a political person and you *won’t be surprised to learn I have an opinion on this*. However, even though I enjoyed our political debates, as I am following the rules and indeed understand the reasoning behind making the rule, I won’t discuss them on this thread. This is of course unlike others who have politicised a thread because they just can’t help themselves.
		
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Surely your can have and state your views on feeding kids or other Covid issues and it not be political? If not then you end up with your views being totally dictated by a political party. And last time I looked at were all free to think and comment our views on things that may well not align with whoever we vote for. 

The fact is, for better or worse, that political decisions will completely impact how Covid is impacting us, or friends, families and society as a whole. If you have to run every post through a 'is this too political' filter then it's a sad state of affairs.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 22, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Surely your can have and state your views on feeding kids or other Covid issues and it not be political? If not then you end up with your views being totally dictated by a political party. And last time I looked at were all free to think and comment our views on things that may well not align with whoever we vote for.

The fact is, for better or worse, that political decisions will completely impact how Covid is impacting us, or friends, families and society as a whole.* If you have to run every post through a 'is this too political' filter then it's a sad state of affairs*.
		
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But necessary to comply with The new forum rules, no point in bleating about it


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## huds1475 (Oct 22, 2020)

If more people looked at the whole of Lazkirs post, rather than picking out specific words to take umbrage with, they'd likely come to realise that he's broadly in agreement.

Appears to me the words he's using might not be the same as others might choose, but the overall sentiment is.

Kids who need support should be given it.
Some have crappy parents.
A solution needs finding.

There are plenty of well fed kids that have crappy parents too.

Be nice to each other


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			If more people looked at the whole of Lazkirs post, rather than picking out specific words to take umbrage with, they'd likely come to realise that he's broadly in agreement.

Appears to me the words he's using might not be the same as others might choose, but the overall sentiment is.

Kids who need support should be given it.
Some have crappy parents.
A solution needs finding.

There are plenty of well fed kids that have crappy parents too.

Be nice to each other
		
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I read it in its entirety, thanks, and he is not in agreement with the way I see disadvantaged families. In your overall sentiment, a few key words, as the Americans might say, do a lot of the heavy lifting.

My sentiment is simpler:

In an era where we can throw millions and billions at private companies who do a terrible job, and we heavily subsidise MPs meals and drinks, we can afford to feed needy children over the holidays. And we can do it in a dignified and gracious manner.

Oh, and here is a recent menu from the House of Commons. Looks nice and such good value for central London. 
	
.


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## DRW (Oct 22, 2020)

Deleted.


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## Mudball (Oct 22, 2020)

You can ignore Farage’s tweet.. the response makes more interesting - how we as a country feel about child poverty is eye opening.  Remember these kids did not choose to be in the place they are ..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1319172209403961346

PS: did not know Farage had a soft side


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## drdel (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I read it in its entirety, thanks, and he is not in agreement with the way I see disadvantaged families. In your overall sentiment, a few key words, as the Americans might say, do a lot of the heavy lifting.

My sentiment is simpler:

In an era where we can throw millions and billions at private companies who do a terrible job, and we heavily subsidise MPs meals and drinks, we can afford to feed needy children over the holidays. And we can do it in a dignified and gracious manner.

Oh, and here is a recent menu from the House of Commons. Looks nice and such good value for central London. 
	View attachment 33026
.
		
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Irrelevant.
Surely you can respect the right of another poster to present their view. The thread is supposed to be about how the virus has impacted you.

Give the politics and 'attacks' a rest


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## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2020)

Mudball said:



			You can ignore Farage’s tweet.. the response makes more interesting - how we as a country feel about child poverty is eye opening.  Remember these kids did not choose to be in the place they are ..


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1319172209403961346

PS: did not know Farage had a soft side
		
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I read some of those responses, along with responses to other posts from people asking for hungry children to be fed. I'm not really sure what happened to the Country I remember. Maybe it never really existed. Maybe there's always been a significant minority of people who are just downright "wrong". Or maybe, the Global events of the last few years have really allowed people to feel absolutely vindicated in having just the vilest of opinions (IMO obviously). Maybe it's time to delete social media...


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

drdel said:



			Irrelevant.
Surely you can respect the right of another poster to present their view. The thread is supposed to be about how the virus has impacted you.

Give the politics and 'attacks' a rest
		
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Irelevant in your opinion.

As you well known, a debate on the Marcus Rashford proposal was taking place. I responded to someone who wrote a scathing post on the poor. He had the right to express that view. Disagreement is not denying his right to do so. Feel free to reserve your opinion on that if you want. The attack was his.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			T

Ten is far too late for DFT, he's put to bed very early .
		
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 How very dare you.

Actually we seldom watch 10pm news on BBC.
We do BBC at 6pm and Sky at 10pm for a bit of balance. [unless there is a better alternative.]
There is a limit to the amount of state propaganda you can handle in one day.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There is a saying 'better to let 10 guilty men walk free than jail one innocent one'. Whilst the numbers are different, the principles is that we are willing to tolerate a few people who rip off the system (although on a fraction of the scale as many rich tax dodgers) if that is necessary to get to the ones who really need help.
		
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The problem is the willingness to tolerate....etc. Can't you , and those thinking like you on this subject, see that this tolerance encourages many to join in the abuse of the system, and so it grows and grows, until whole areas become like it, and those doing the right thing rightly get annoyed at this "tolerance"
Eventually society can collapse both financially and in moral fibre, and extreme divisions grow.

We end up with all on benefits being condemned by some and all with any wealth being condemned by others.

We should condemn strongly the abusers and stop the abuse
by all who rip off the system, including the clever  individuals and Companies who use lawyers to do the same thing .

It isn't enough to " pick a side" and then justify it.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

Funny how some people on here seem to think throwing money at the problem is the answer.  Yes there are children out there that need help, yes there are parents out there that need help put there are also a lot of god awful parents who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near kids and if given vouchers some (SOME) would find a scam which gives them the benefit.

IMO the government did score an own goal last night but if the problems associated with bad parenting and issues around poverty in general cannot be solved by just throwing more money at it.

Having a go at someone who has to deal with the issues, and there are a few of us that do and see the good and the bad and chucking a menu up of the house of commons is a joke, we all know what happens there and its irrelevant.


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## User62651 (Oct 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Funny how some people on here seem to think throwing money at the problem is the answer.  Yes there are children out there that need help, yes there are parents out there that need help put there are also a lot of god awful parents who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near kids and if given vouchers some (SOME) would find a scam which gives them the benefit.

IMO the government did score an own goal last night but if the problems associated with bad parenting and issues around poverty in general cannot be solved by just throwing more money at it.

Having a go at someone who has to deal with the issues, and there are a few of us that do and see the good and the bad and chucking a menu up of the house of commons is a joke, we all know what happens there and its irrelevant.
		
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Not irrelevant, as public servants paid (and clearly subsidised) by taxpayers money they should be setting an example. We all read about the expenses scandal some years ago but this menu along with drinking after 10 just reinforces the stereotype of MPs with  'snouts in troughs' and rules don't apply. They need unfair privileges ended.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Not irrelevant, as public servants paid (and clearly subsidised) by taxpayers money they should be setting an example. We all read about the expenses scandal some years ago but this menu along with drinking after 10 just reinforces the stereotype of MPs with  'snouts in troughs' and rules don't apply. They need unfair privileges ended.
		
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Its irrelevant unless you are actively doing something about it. Can I ask how many complaints you have sent to your MP about the subject.  Like poverty, unless your actively involved you only know what you read.


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I don't really see what's wrong with the prices, it's their work canteen.

In a minute I'm off to get my  3 course dinner for £2.35, thanks everyone 👍
		
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Yes but its just gruel and a chug of rum.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2020)

Let's double or even triple the MP's meal costs, that should free up some funds to tackle poverty 🙄  While we're at it let's stop works canteens, Police, Fire Service, NHS, Civil Service, Armed Services, Pensioner Dinner clubs from any subsidised meals.    Just silly posturing.

Of course children need feeding, no one here is saying otherwise,. It seems that once again people are not facing the reality: Yes there are some feckless parents who take advantage, Yes there are poor parents that put their children before themselves, Yes there are a spectrum of people between these two polar cases and Yes there are members on this site that look to play silly finger pointing games rather than using a modicum of balance and Yes I would support giving meal vouchers over the holidays.

And finally 🤣🤣🤣  to save someone their normal reply.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 22, 2020)

Son and daughter in law are in isolation now as dil is displaying symptoms. They were only married in march two weeks before lockdown and she had to sheild almost straigjt away due to a compromised immune system. Although she is young fit and generally healthy any bugs she does pick up hit her hard. Extremely worried now while we await the test result


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The problem is the willingness to tolerate....etc. Can't you , and those thinking like you on this subject, see that this tolerance encourages many to join in the abuse of the system, and so it grows and grows, until whole areas become like it, and those doing the right thing rightly get annoyed at this "tolerance"
Eventually society can collapse both financially and in moral fibre, and extreme divisions grow.

We end up with all on benefits being condemned by some and all with any wealth being condemned by others.

We should condemn strongly the abusers and stop the abuse
by all who rip off the system, including the clever  individuals and Companies who use lawyers to do the same thing .

It isn't enough to " pick a side" and then justify it.
		
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The expression doesn't mean be unconcerned about the guilty or abusers, just not to hurt the innocent in your zeal to get at the guilty.


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## Mudball (Oct 22, 2020)

I wait for one of the red rags to carry a story about a single mom living in 5 bed council house with 12 kids from 5 dads and did a trip to benidom with her new boyfriend who goes to college with her eldest using the vouchers Sunak sent her. 

That will have everyone up in arms about state sponges. Unfortunately it does no favour to the other 31% of the U.K. kids population that are considered as being under the breadline.... yup 31% of U.K. kids under breadline. I am assuming that’s giving the third world something a run for it’s money 
(https://www.theguardian.com/society...ases-in-england-across-the-north-and-midlands )


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## fundy (Oct 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Son and daughter in law are in isolation now as dil is displaying symptoms. They were only married in march two weeks before lockdown and she had to sheild almost straigjt away due to a compromised immune system. Although she is young fit and generally healthy any bugs she does pick up hit her hard. Extremely worried now while we await the test result
		
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fingers xxxed alls ok Paul


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## Mudball (Oct 22, 2020)

Friends kids at home.. he is a teacher .. and now one of the teacher has tested positive. So some parts of school in early half term but with area going to Tier 2 this week, looks like kids will be home for some time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2020)

Sweep said:



			As you know, like you I am a political person and you won’t be surprised to learn I have an opinion on this. However, even though I enjoyed our political debates, as I am following the rules and indeed understand the reasoning behind making the rule, I won’t discuss them on this thread. This is of course unlike others who have politicised a thread because they just can’t help themselves.
		
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Agreeing or not to providing children of the poorest with free food is not political - it is a matter of social conscience and what a civilised society should consider as core. Not expressing an opinion on the grounds of this being political seems poor and simply evasive.


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## Lazkir (Oct 22, 2020)

Deleted, tbh treplies such as these have drifted too far from the OP's  original intention imo.


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## Sweep (Oct 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agreeing or not to providing children of the poorest with free food is not political - it is a matter of social conscience and what a civilised society should consider as core. Not expressing an opinion on the grounds of this being political seems poor and simply evasive.
		
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I think you are going to have some difficulty with the new rules.
Everyone believes children should be fed. Whether that is the parents responsibility or the governments is political. Whether the benefit system is already providing for this is political. How any benefit from the government is delivered is political. Etc etc.
My stance is not poor or evasive. It’s following the rules. Mods have already indicated more than once this thread has strayed into the political.
Perhaps you should consider following the rules yourself rather than goading others to break them? Just a suggestion.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2020)

Sweep said:



			I think you are going to have some difficulty with the new rules.
Everyone believes children should be fed. Whether that is the parents responsibility or the governments is political. Whether the benefit system is already providing for this is political. How any benefit from the government is delivered is political. Etc etc.
My stance is not poor or evasive. It’s following the rules. Mods have already indicated more than once this thread has strayed into the political.
Perhaps you should consider following the rules yourself rather than goading others to break them? Just a suggestion.
		
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He isn’t goading anyone! Mods have a difficult enough job without people over reacting or exaggerating. 

Most threads on here drift off subject at times before getting back on track whether that be through mod intervention or whatever.

We all understand Political discussion is banned and if you think someone is crossing the line then report it.

Shocking how since the ban came in some posters only contribution to the thread has been to question others motives and has had nothing to do with the thread title, double standards perhaps?


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2020)

When I was at school, my parents used to pay for 5 meal tickets, one per day.
Those who were less well off got their tickets free of charge.
I then exchanged one ticket per day for lunch.
Is this what still happens today?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He isn’t goading anyone! Mods have a difficult enough job without people over reacting or exaggerating.

Most threads on here drift off subject at times before getting back on track whether that be through mod intervention or whatever.

We all understand Political discussion is banned and if you think someone is crossing the line then report it.

Shocking how since the ban came in some posters only contribution to the thread has been to question others motives and has had nothing to do with the thread title, double standards perhaps?
		
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But this particular thread has long since drifted off from its original point as defined by its title. 

As I understand it it was the intention of the OP that there should be somewhere for members to discuss their personal experiences with the virus. There was a separate thread for discussion on the Government's handling of the situation. 

However,  following GM Towers edict on threads of a political nature that second thread was closed. 

The result has been that this thread has drifted ever further from the OP's intention and I admit to having been guilty myself in the past of taking the thread "off topic".

After all how many of us are personally affected by the provision of free meals for underprivileged children. In itself that issue is,  after all,  not specifically related to the coronavirus.

It is, however, a subject well worthy of our attention and how it should be resolved. 

But the honest way for us to do that would be by a separate thread devoted entirely to the subject.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But this particular thread has long since drifted off from its original point as defined by its title.

As I understand it it was the intention of the OP that there should be somewhere for members to discuss their personal experiences with the virus. There was a separate thread for discussion on the Government's handling of the situation.

However,  following GM Towers edict on threads of a political nature that second thread was closed.

The result has been that this thread has drifted ever further from the OP's intention and I admit to having been guilty myself in the past of taking the thread "off topic".

After all how many of us are personally affected by the provision of free meals for underprivileged children. In itself that issue is,  after all,  not specifically related to the coronavirus.

It is, however, a subject well worthy of our attention and how it should be resolved.

But the honest way for us to do that would be by a separate thread devoted entirely to the subject.
		
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It is for some of us though mate, I’ve become more involved with the local foodbank during this crisis, if it wasn’t for the crisis I don’t believe I would of.

Look at the mental health side of it, if someone comes on here and says outright how they are struggling people rally round and rightly so.

Maybe, just maybe, some of what is being posted or took off track is the posters way of coping with life at the moment, so instead of that being considered they are jumped on rather than us being more tolerant, after all due to the ban on politics this thread has evolved in to one stop shop.


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## Sweep (Oct 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He isn’t goading anyone! Mods have a difficult enough job without people over reacting or exaggerating.

Most threads on here drift off subject at times before getting back on track whether that be through mod intervention or whatever.

We all understand Political discussion is banned and if you think someone is crossing the line then report it.

Shocking how since the ban came in some posters only contribution to the thread has been to question others motives and has had nothing to do with the thread title, double standards perhaps?
		
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Despite me saying on at least two occasions that I was declining to comment simply because we have been asked not to enter into political discussion, he has requested my opinion and indeed told me I was being evasive and “poor”. So he is goading me.
I have no need to report it (not that I would anyway), the mods have already asked us not to politicise this thread, so they are clearly aware.
If you think it is shocking that some are pointing out where they believe a thread had crossed the line then all I can say is you are easily shocked.
As I have already said, I would love to debate political stuff. I enjoyed it when it was permitted and I never held a grudge against anyone with a different view. Quite the opposite. However, just as in golf, you can’t change the rules and you can’t choose which rules you obey. And that goes for you, me, Hogie and everyone. So no double standards from me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Despite me saying on at least two occasions that I was declining to comment simply because we have been asked not to enter into political discussion, he has requested my opinion and indeed told me I was being evasive and “poor”. So he is goading me.
I have no need to report it (not that I would anyway), the mods have already asked us not to politicise this thread, so they are clearly aware.
If you think it is shocking that some are pointing out where they believe a thread had crossed the line then all I can say is you are easily shocked.
As I have already said, I would love to debate political stuff. I enjoyed it when it was permitted and I never held a grudge against anyone with a different view. Quite the opposite. However, just as in golf, you can’t change the rules and you can’t choose which rules you obey. And that goes for you, me, Hogie and everyone. So no double standards from me.
		
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You declined to comment by answering him directly, therefore encouraging him, surely the easiest way is not to engage and report him for goading and politicising the thread.

Reporting actually helps the mods, it doesn’t make you some sort of underworld snitch who may need to go in to witness protection.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It is for some of us though mate, I’ve become more involved with the local foodbank during this crisis, if it wasn’t for the crisis I don’t believe I would of.

Look at the mental health side of it, if someone comes on here and says outright how they are struggling people rally round and rightly so.

Maybe, just maybe, some of what is being posted or took off track is the posters way of coping with life at the moment, so instead of that being considered they are jumped on rather than us being more tolerant, after all due to the ban on politics this thread has evolved in to one stop shop.
		
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I realise that some have more personal experience, my own son is a primary school teacher and some of what he can relate is truly heart rending, and certainly agree that there should be  a platform for our thoughts and concerns.

But if the powers that be have decided that "political" discussion is outlawed then perhaps a separate thread should be started for this subject.

Then having established that there is clearly a problem and one that will continue long after the pandemic members can offer their ideas on how we, as a society, can address that problem.


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## Sweep (Oct 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You declined to comment by answering him directly, therefore encouraging him, surely the easiest way is not to engage and report him for goading and politicising the thread.

Reporting actually helps the mods, it doesn’t make you some sort of underworld snitch who may need to go in to witness protection.

Click to expand...

So I was goading him to goad me. 😂😂😂. 

Thanks for the advice on reporting.


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## User62651 (Oct 23, 2020)

Marcus Rashford leading the way and getting an amazing response across England to help very needy kids during an unprecedented crisis.

Also this didn't take long - 
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-mps-entitlement-to-free-work-meals?bucket=
Decent people sick of the double standards.


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## Sweep (Oct 23, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I realise that some have more personal experience, my own son is a primary school teacher and some of what he can relate is truly heart rending, and certainly agree that there should be  a platform for our thoughts and concerns.

But if the powers that be have decided that "political" discussion is outlawed then perhaps a separate thread should be started for this subject.

Then having established that there is clearly a problem and one that will continue long after the pandemic members can offer their ideas on how we, as a society, can address that problem.
		
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Mrs Sweep is a primary school teacher and I can identify with your comment about some situations being truly heart rending.
Much of this though bears no relation to coronavirus and it’s hard to see how such a discussion can be held without becoming political. I hope we can though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2020)

Sweep said:



			So I was goading him to goad me. 😂😂😂.

Thanks for the advice on reporting.
		
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Here’s an issue in yourself you might wish to consider! At no time did I say you were goading him, I said encouraging, ie, entering in to a debate/conversation with him, to which he will respond.

Twist it however you like.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I realise that some have more personal experience, my own son is a primary school teacher and some of what he can relate is truly heart rending, and certainly agree that there should be  a platform for our thoughts and concerns.

But if the powers that be have decided that "political" discussion is outlawed then perhaps a separate thread should be started for this subject.

Then having established that there is clearly a problem and one that will continue long after the pandemic members can offer their ideas on how we, as a society, can address that problem.
		
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I’d agree and I’d like to see it happen, unfortunstely I think there would be zero chance of it lasting on here, too many would play the poster and not the post.


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## Sweep (Oct 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Here’s an issue in yourself you might wish to consider! At no time did I say you were goading him, I said encouraging, ie, entering in to a debate/conversation with him, to which he will respond.

Twist it however you like.
		
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 So I “encouraged” him to “encourage” me. 😂😂😂 Twist the language however you like.
Here is an issue in yourself you may wish to consider. Hogie is big enough to fight his own battles.
Better still, how about we just get back on the topic of how the pandemic has affected you? Which was my point in the first place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2020)

Sweep said:



			So I “encouraged” him to “encourage” me. 😂😂😂 Twist the language however you like.
Here is an issue in yourself you may wish to consider. Hogie is big enough to fight his own battles.
Better still, how about we just get back on the topic of how the pandemic has affected you? Which was my point in the first place.
		
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It’s not about anyone being big enough to fight their own battles, it’s the calling out of the constant form of “attack” by posters on here everytime silh posts, same people respond to him and then the  same people “like” those responses to him, it verges on bullying at times and goes back to my point on mental health.


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## huds1475 (Oct 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Marcus Rashford leading the way and getting an amazing response across England to help very needy kids during an unprecedented crisis.

Also this didn't take long - 
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-mps-entitlement-to-free-work-meals?bucket=
Decent people sick of the double standards.
		
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If anyone gets a minute, look at Rashfords twitter feed. Literally hundreds of businesses and councils offering food to kids. 

Makes very emotional reading.


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## ADB (Oct 23, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			If anyone gets a minute, look at Rashfords twitter feed. Literally hundreds of businesses and councils offering food to kids.

Makes very emotional reading.
		
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Couldn't agree more, heartbreaking and heartwarming in equal measure


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 23, 2020)

I cannot believe today's virus lockdown measures.  Scotland now have FIVE tiers - we only have three.   We need to do a lot better and have at least SEVEN going forwards.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 23, 2020)

Counting down to alleged Covid enforced office closure and redundancies. It's dragging now and motivation at an all time low. Not like me and getting the job done but feels like a chore. Working from home still so make sure I have something to do the minute I finish work and usually head to the gym to burn off some angst!


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## Mudball (Oct 23, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			If anyone gets a minute, look at Rashfords twitter feed. Literally hundreds of businesses and councils offering food to kids.

Makes very emotional reading.
		
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Good to see the community step in where Westminsiter failed...  Hopefully there is a kid being fed this half term, who goes onto lead this country some day..


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## KenL (Oct 23, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I cannot believe today's virus lockdown measures.  Scotland now have FIVE tiers - we only have three.   We need to do a lot better and have at least SEVEN going forwards.
		
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Not much difference between some of them.  Schools stay open throughout but the exams taken by most pupils have been scrapped.


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## Sweep (Oct 23, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not about anyone being big enough to fight their own battles, it’s the calling out of the constant form of “attack” by posters on here everytime silh posts, same people respond to him and then the  same people “like” those responses to him, it verges on bullying at times and goes back to my point on mental health.
		
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Let’s be clear. Telling someone that you are not commenting on a particular issue because you want to stick to the rules is NOT bullying. Not in any context. It’s not verging on bullying. Not even close. Nor is it attacking him. So, whilst you may have an issue with some forumers, do not include me in this accusation. I have never bullied or attacked anyone, on this forum or anywhere else.
You may support the majority of Hogies viewpoints. I am sure you have “liked” many of his posts. But other people don’t subscribe to his point of view. They are as entitled to their view just as much as you, Hogie and the same people who frequently like your posts.
All of which probably neatly sums up why political posts were banned, so I suggest we leave it there.


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## KenL (Oct 23, 2020)

Is this thread getting binned soon?
It is worse than those political ones. 😉


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 23, 2020)

Sweep said:



			Let’s be clear. Telling someone that you are not commenting on a particular issue because you want to stick to the rules is NOT bullying. Not in any context. It’s not verging on bullying. Not even close. Nor is it attacking him. So, whilst you may have an issue with some forumers, do not include me in this accusation. I have never bullied or attacked anyone, on this forum or anywhere else.
You may support the majority of Hogies viewpoints. I am sure you have “liked” many of his posts. But other people don’t subscribe to his point of view. They are as entitled to their view just as much as you, Hogie and the same people who frequently like your posts.
All of which probably neatly sums up why political posts were banned, so I suggest we leave it there.
		
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I suggest I’m entitled to my opinion just as much as you are and as for silh is concerned, I do not respond to his posts and have no time for 99% of what he posts, yes, at times I will “like” the odd post from him, but even a broken clock is correct twice a day, so please don’t come on here and accuse me of fighting his battles, I called it as I saw it, you got in to a direct conversation with him then moaned when you didn’t like how he replied.

You reap what you sow!

Happy to leave it there!


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 23, 2020)

KenL said:



			Is this thread getting binned soon?
It is worse than those political ones. 😉
		
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If it keeps going like it is, then it is a distinct possibility

Can I remind posters that the thread title is "Corona Virus- How has it affected you"

So it is a place to give your personal experiences, good or bad

It is not a thread to discuss the relative rights or wrongs of government policy etc


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## drdel (Oct 23, 2020)

KenL said:



			Is this thread getting binned soon?
It is worse than those political ones. 😉
		
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Its a bit like the COVID guidance. If people would just accept the principles behind the rules (forum and Government) rather than look to push the boundaries the thread would stay on track and the infection rate would ŕeduce.


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Its a bit like the COVID guidance. If people would just accept the principles behind the rules (forum and Government) rather than look to push the boundaries the thread would stay on track and the infection rate would ŕeduce.
		
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That is political. People should follow Govt rules without question, and you assert that the infection rate would therefore reduce. Based on what evidence? And at what cost (economic and otherwise)?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 23, 2020)

Post 10267
Please read it


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## SatchFan (Oct 23, 2020)

My wife and I did some high street Christmas shopping this morning. It was relatively busy but we didn't see anyone without a mask in store, everyone kept a reasonable distance and we even managed a socially distanced coffee in Caffe Nero. Almost enjoyed myself.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2020)

My God wtf is going on in Wales 😲


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## Hobbit (Oct 23, 2020)

Apart from the 'standard' measures imposed here in Spain, there are a number of provincial, regional and local measures that can be implemented depending on the infection rate per 100,000 inhabitants. The regional presidents hold most of the powers, with national impositions only happening if it hits a really bad figure nationally. Even the smaller towns and larger villages have mayors who also hold real powers. Impositions of new, extended measures happen when the infection rate hits 500 per 100,000

NO THIS ISN'T A POLICITCAL POST - just wishing to show the mechanics behind what's happening locally.

The village where I live, after having almost zero from day one, is currently at 1,555 per 100,000 - the exact number of infections is 45. Most of the towns and villages locally are either side of 1,000 per 100,000. Like the UK, the local authorities are trying to keep bars and restaurants open. Both are limited to 50% of capacity, and masks must be worn, even when you're sitting down, if you haven't got a glass or knife and fork in your hand. Road blocks are much in evidence and fines are being issued to everyone who has tested positive and is outside their front door - €1,000. And we are being discouraged from travelling between towns.

We do a supermarket shop every 3 weeks, and for essentials, e.g. bread and milk, once a week + out bowling a couple of times a week. Normally, we'd be out every day for most of the day. Now we're out 3 times a week for a couple of hours at a time. Word on the Spanish news is we're not too far away from control reverting back to Madrid and a full on lockdown.


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## spongebob59 (Oct 23, 2020)

So West Ham.fans can go to Westfield Vue cinema.and watch their team.play whilst the team play in an empty stadium next door .

Worlds gome mad .😵


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## Mudball (Oct 23, 2020)

We closed our office after reopening a few weeks ago ... partly because adjoining councils going into lockdown.
Partly because it is too expensive to keep a building running for about 20-25 who may turn up. It now requires a lot of cleaners, coffee shop, security, HVAC etc.  I feel sorry for those who work in facilities - they can’t work from home.

When will this mare end??


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2020)

Mudball said:



			We closed our office after reopening a few weeks ago ... partly because adjoining councils going into lockdown.
Partly because it is too expensive to keep a building running for about 20-25 who may turn up. It now requires a lot of cleaners, coffee shop, security, HVAC etc.  I feel sorry for those who work in facilities - they can’t work from home.

When will this mare end??
		
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Maybe in time for The Masters. But not the one coming up soon.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is political. People should follow Govt rules without question, and you assert that the infection rate would therefore reduce. Based on what evidence? And at what cost (economic and otherwise)?
		
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Surely if people keep a distance, wear masks and wash hands it would reduce infections without imposing too much damage on business. Or am I missing the point?


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## IainP (Oct 23, 2020)

I have some work links with Belgium.
Today they reported over 16K of cases - to add some context the population is around a 6th of the UK.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-belgium-failed-its-second-corona-test/

Yesterday Europe contributed 218K to a new global high of 479K.

Roll on April....


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## User62651 (Oct 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			I have some work links with Belgium.
Today they reported over 16K of cases - to add some context the population is around a 6th of the UK.

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-belgium-failed-its-second-corona-test/

Yesterday Europe contributed 218K to a new global high of 479K.

*Roll on April*....
		
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What happens in April?


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## IainP (Oct 24, 2020)

Fair question. Nothing specifically it is just where in my head I'm anticipating things (in Europe) to be pretty rubbish until.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2020)

Clocks go back tonight.

Who wants an extra hour of 2020 though 🤔


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## SaintHacker (Oct 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Clocks go back tonight.

Who wants an extra hour of 2020 though 🤔
		
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I finish work at 2130 tonight, and start again at ten to six tomorrow morning. So me!😂


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## KenL (Oct 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I finish work at 2130 tonight, and start again at ten to six tomorrow morning. So me!😂
		
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That's brutal mate. 😬


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2020)

Mmm, how has it affected me?

Honestly, as a long term sufferer of PTSD, and the daughter's recent blindness + 2 other daughters due to give birth very soon and a house move in the next month, the last couple of weeks have been very dark. We've, reluctantly, decided we won't travel till late Dec at the earliest.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, how has it affected me?

Honestly, as a long term sufferer of PTSD, and the daughter's recent blindness + 2 other daughters due to give birth very soon and a house move in the next month, the last couple of weeks have been very dark. We've, reluctantly, decided we won't travel till late Dec at the earliest.
		
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You didn’t mention your feet 🙄

Sounds like a heavy time Brian, stay safe and sane Sir


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Clocks go back tonight.

Who wants an extra hour of 2020 though 🤔
		
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I’ll be asleep in a happy place, wake me up in 2024.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Clocks go back tonight.

Who wants an extra hour of 2020 though 🤔
		
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I'll have it

On my weekend at work 12 hour turn around so extra sleep is always welcome 

I get to sleep in spare room when working so extra long sleep for me whilst the wife has the twins


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'll have it

On my weekend at work 12 hour turn around so extra sleep is always welcome

I get to sleep in spare room when working so extra long sleep for me whilst the wife has the twins
		
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Sent mine to you by Yodel.  Might be ok for 2021 😉


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, how has it affected me?

Honestly, as a long term sufferer of PTSD, and the daughter's recent blindness + 2 other daughters due to give birth very soon and a house move in the next month, the last couple of weeks have been very dark. We've, reluctantly, decided we won't travel till late Dec at the earliest.
		
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Hope things work out for you and your family Hobbs.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 24, 2020)

KenL said:



			That's brutal mate. 😬
		
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Just over legal minimum rest. My own fault for grabbing some extra overtime...


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## Billysboots (Oct 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Just over legal minimum rest. My own fault for grabbing some extra overtime...
		
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After 20 years of (voluntarily) finishing at 10pm and returning at 7am, once every week, I feel your pain. 😳


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, how has it affected me?

Honestly, as a long term sufferer of PTSD, and the daughter's recent blindness + 2 other daughters due to give birth very soon and a house move in the next month, the last couple of weeks have been very dark. We've, reluctantly, decided we won't travel till late Dec at the earliest.
		
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Sorry to read all that. Hope things work out for the best for you and your family.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Just over legal minimum rest. My own fault for grabbing some extra overtime...
		
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Billysboots said:



			After 20 years of (voluntarily) finishing at 10pm and returning at 7am, once every week, I feel your pain. 😳
		
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My first shift pattern had two quick changeovers every 4 weeks, 7am to 3pm, then 11pm to 7am two weeks later, rinse & repeat for 10 years.  You have my sympathy.


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 25, 2020)

Got back to Sweden today, and feels strange that people look at you when wearing a face mask when going into the shops. Hasn’t really affected me as such, but just strange going from one place where it’s mandatory to a place were it’s alien.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 25, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I cannot believe today's virus lockdown measures.  Scotland now have FIVE tiers - we only have three.   We need to do a lot better and have at least SEVEN going forwards.
		
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B*onnie M? or The Goombay  *


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## Fish (Oct 25, 2020)

Had to sit on my own in the clubhouse, single tables spread & set out so conversations with my playing partners was, well, not great, so I've decided to be a car park golfer whilst we’re in Tier 2.

A lot of members don’t reside in Cov and live in surrounding towns, which aren’t in T2 so can sit together, I see and play with my playing partners more than I see family, so why can’t they be classed as being in my bubble!

Getting pished off with it all now, it’s not going anywhere whilst people can travel freely around the world, so we can’t live like this forever, so let’s just crack on and get busy living!!


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## SaintHacker (Oct 25, 2020)

So waiting at the bus stop for my first pick up this morning,  a woman walks up and quickly chain smokes two fags, before jumping on and proudly showing me her ' exempt from wearing a mask due to breathing difficulties ' card. 🙄 
Its not a virus thats going to finish us off, its selfishness and stupidity...


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 25, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			B*onnie M? or The Goombay *

Click to expand...

I've asked for the Lord Rockingham's XI to be involved.


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## chellie (Oct 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Had to sit on my own in the clubhouse, single tables spread & set out so conversations with my playing partners was, well, not great, so I've decided to be a car park golfer whilst we’re in Tier 2.

*A lot of members don’t reside in Cov and live in surrounding towns, which aren’t in T2 so can sit together*, I see and play with my playing partners more than I see family, so why can’t they be classed as being in my bubble!

Getting pished off with it all now, it’s not going anywhere whilst people can travel freely around the world, so we can’t live like this forever, so let’s just crack on and get busy living!!
		
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I thought mixing of households wasn't allowed in Tier 2 so they shouldn't be sitting together. England Golf https://www.englandgolf.org/coronavirus/


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## Mudball (Oct 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, how has it affected me?

Honestly, as a long term sufferer of PTSD, and the daughter's recent blindness + 2 other daughters due to give birth very soon and a house move in the next month, the last couple of weeks have been very dark. We've, reluctantly, decided we won't travel till late Dec at the earliest.
		
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Good times will follow the bad ones... hang in there mate and keep the faith


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Had to sit on my own in the clubhouse, single tables spread & set out so conversations with my playing partners was, well, not great, so I've decided to be a car park golfer whilst we’re in Tier 2.

A lot of members don’t reside in Cov and live in surrounding towns, which aren’t in T2 so can sit together, I see and play with my playing partners more than I see family, so why can’t they be classed as being in my bubble!

Getting pished off with it all now, it’s not going anywhere whilst people can travel freely around the world, so we can’t live like this forever, so let’s just crack on and get busy living!!
		
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If your club is in tier 2 then tier 2 rules are in place for everyone whilst they are there. Someone from Tier 1 can't go into a Tier 2 area and keep to the Tier 1 rules whilst there. The rules from the higher tier always take precedence if two different tiers come together. 

Apologies if I have misunderstood your post but that is how it reads.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2020)

chellie said:



			I thought mixing of households wasn't allowed in Tier 2 so they shouldn't be sitting together. England Golf https://www.englandgolf.org/coronavirus/

Click to expand...

It isn't. I'm in a tier 2 area and mixing of households indoors is not allowed. 1 pub up here was closed by the police recently for not enforcing this, police have been into at least one nearby golf club to check as well.


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## robinthehood (Oct 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If your club is in tier 2 then tier 2 rules are in place for everyone whilst they are there. Someone from Tier 1 can't go into a Tier 2 area and keep to the Tier 1 rules whilst there. The rules from the higher tier always take precedence if two different tiers come together.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your post but that is how it reads.
		
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Yeah same here, you follow the rules of where you are, not bring yours with you... so if club is T2 then the T2 rules apply to all. I live in T1 but work in T2.. we cant go to the pub atfer work for that exact reason.


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## Billysboots (Oct 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It isn't. I'm in a tier 2 area and mixing of households indoors is not allowed. 1 pub up here was closed by the police recently for not enforcing this, police have been into at least one nearby golf club to check as well.
		
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I can see why there may be some confusion, although certainly not in this particular instance. It’s quite clear here - the CLUB is in a Tier 2 area, so the Tier 2 rules apply to what happens at the club, including mixing.

If my understanding is right the only time this would be different would be if someone who lived in a Tier 2 area visited a club in Tier 1. In that scenario, whilst the Tier 2 rules don’t apply to the club, the visitor from Tier 2 would not be allowed to take advantage of the Rule Of Six and mix in the clubhouse because the Tier 2 rules don’t allow it.

I’ve just re-read the EG guidance and that’s how it comes across;

Who is affected?

• Golf clubs/ facilities in affected areas

• _*Golfers living in affected areas, even where their golf club falls outside of the area*_


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## garyinderry (Oct 25, 2020)

A 4th case tune up in work.  I worked with the fella over a week ago. In the same lab. One college worked with him on Tuesday so she is isolating.

I was told only to isolate if my app tells me too. 

Not back till the 4th Nov.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Had to sit on my own in the clubhouse, single tables spread & set out so conversations with my playing partners was, well, not great, so I've decided to be a car park golfer whilst we’re in Tier 2.

A lot of members don’t reside in Cov and live in surrounding towns, which aren’t in T2 so can sit together, I see and play with my playing partners more than I see family, so why can’t they be classed as being in my bubble!

Getting pished off with it all now, it’s not going anywhere whilst people can travel freely around the world, so we can’t live like this forever, *so let’s just crack on and get busy living!!*

Click to expand...

Or more likely dieing if we crack on.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If your club is in tier 2 then tier 2 rules are in place for everyone whilst they are there. Someone from Tier 1 can't go into a Tier 2 area and keep to the Tier 1 rules whilst there. The rules from the higher tier always take precedence if two different tiers come together.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your post but that is how it reads.
		
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Fish's golf club is in a Tier 1 area but I believe he lives within a Tier 2 area.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Fish's golf club is in a Tier 1 area but I believe he lives within a Tier 2 area.
		
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Ah, okay. I did put a proviso in at the end just in case. It read the other way around to me. Thanks for clearing up 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 25, 2020)

Last week of furlough before returning to work on 2 November 
Playing 4 times this week, going to be very hard going back to playing once at the weekend....if that


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2020)

Mrs SILH is really struggling emotionally for our lad (as am I) stuck on UC and really struggling with life both financially but more importantly mentally with the thought of his whole career and career sector having collapsed and having to find a new one - especially as his career was his passion.  And meanwhile dozens of job applications for work going in and getting nowhere as he is but one of many thousands desperate for work.

So we really connect with the reporting today about massive mental health issues for many now, and coming for very many more down the line.  And as the reporting tells us at the same time there is an apparent cutting back on mental health provisioning in the 40 hospitals that are to be built in the coming years.  Desperate times now and to come.

Meanwhile we support as best we can and hope for something that is at least not the worst...

And at work it seems that my account is income strapped due to a significant fall in new client work and can no longer afford me after the end of the month - with me being an expensive UK resource that works from home on non-revenue generating projects - they can get an excellent Polish colleague to do my job from Poland at half the cost...so who knows what next...🤔🙁


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs SILH is really struggling emotionally for our lad (as am I) stuck on UC and really struggling with life both financially but more importantly mentally with the thought of his whole career and career sector having collapsed and having to find a new one - especially as his career was his passion.  And meanwhile dozens of job applications for work going in and getting nowhere as he is but one of many thousands desperate for work.

So we really connect with the reporting today about massive mental health issues for many now, and coming for very many more down the line.  And as the reporting tells us at the same time there is an apparent cutting back on mental health provisioning in the 40 hospitals that are to be built in the coming years.  Desperate times now and to come.

Meanwhile we support as best we can and hope for something that is at least not the worst...

And at work it seems that my account is income strapped due to a significant fall in new client work and can no longer afford me after the end of the month - with me being an expensive UK resource that works from home on non-revenue generating projects - they can get an excellent Polish colleague to do my job from Poland at half the cost...so who knows what next...🤔🙁
		
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My Son in Law worked in the music business and he found himself out of work. He has started a food delivery job for Sainsbury's and loves it.  No good getting maudlin about things, better to face reality brush yourself down and get on with it. A time will come when he will have the opportunity to get back to his preferred work.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs SILH is really struggling emotionally for our lad (as am I) stuck on UC and really struggling with life both financially but more importantly mentally with the thought of his whole career and career sector having collapsed and having to find a new one - especially as his career was his passion.  And meanwhile dozens of job applications for work going in and getting nowhere as he is but one of many thousands desperate for work.

So we really connect with the reporting today about massive mental health issues for many now, and coming for very many more down the line.  And as the reporting tells us at the same time there is an apparent cutting back on mental health provisioning in the 40 hospitals that are to be built in the coming years.  Desperate times now and to come.

Meanwhile we support as best we can and hope for something that is at least not the worst...

And at work it seems that my account is income strapped due to a significant fall in new client work and can no longer afford me after the end of the month - with me being an expensive UK resource that works from home on non-revenue generating projects - they can get an excellent Polish colleague to do my job from Poland at half the cost...so who knows what next...🤔🙁
		
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Remind him he doesn't have to find a new career, he just has to find a new job for the time being. As SR points out, he can return to his ideal job once this has blown over. There must be lots of people doing fill in jobs right now, it doesn't have to be forever.


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2020)

The Spanish govt agrees a national state of alarm, i.e. one below a state of emergency. Curfew at 11pm through to 6am. No movement between autonomous communities, i.e. we can't travel from Andalucia to Murcia or Valencia or any of the other regions that have their own president. Cities, towns and villages can set their own individual local rules, e.g. there's no live music in all but one town within 20 miles. Most sports have been stopped, inc. gyms. Capacity in bar/restaurants has been curtailed. Travel on public transport is now every other seat/row of seats is taped off.

Quoted as lasting till Feb, with 15 day extensions. Basically, the constitution doesn't allow anything more than 15 days without resorting to martial law - no chance of that ever passing here after the Franco years. The get around is what we now see, notification of the intention to extend followed by another debate and a vote - the outcome already having been agreed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Remind him he doesn't have to find a new career, he just has to find a new job for the time being. As SR points out, he can return to his ideal job once this has blown over. There must be lots of people doing fill in jobs right now, it doesn't have to be forever.
		
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Sorry but this exemplifies the total lack of understanding of the mental anguish that many are going through at the moment.  Yes - go get a job - it’s that easy isn’t it.  Well no it isn’t.

Oh and by the way - whilst your at it just dump everything you’ve been doing and working towards for the last 6 years with no restart in sight, and btw - your sector might never recover...so it might well have to be forever - and that is a terrible blow and very difficult to get your head around.  This is not the same as losing your job and getting something to fill in whilst you look for another employer doing similar...but that is how some think it is.

The anguish and despair are real...and i thought we as a society had moved on from telling those suffering from depression and deep fears to ‘get over it and move on’.  Clearly not with some.

And btw - this thread is entitled ‘Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?’ And to that I have posted...


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry but this exemplifies the total lack of understanding of the mental anguish that many are going through at the moment.  Yes - go get a job - it’s that easy isn’t it.  Well no it isn’t.

Oh and by the way - whilst your at it just dump everything you’ve been doing and working towards for the last 6 years with no restart in sight, and btw - your sector might never recover...so it might well have to be forever - and that is a terrible blow and very difficult to get your head around.  This is not the same as losing your job and getting something to fill in whilst you look for another employer doing similar...but that is how some think it is.

The anguish and despair are real...and i thought we as a society had moved on from telling those suffering from depression and deep fears to ‘get over it and move on’.  Clearly not with some.
		
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Being harsh, you have been going on about his predicament for a good few months now. If he still hasn't looked at other avenues until the music industry returns to a degree of normality then to some degree I have little sympathy. There are jobs out there. Many will be menial and not what he'd want to do but the equation is simple. Do the work and get more income or carry on on UC and struggle. 

I get the mental anguish side of things and have seen the effect it has had even on those that have worked through it, especially some of our medical and nursing teams. Not sure anyone on here has said "get over it" but I am sure having a better income stream would ease some of the financial worries. There will be a lot of people from many, many industries that will not be able to go back to the jobs they know and will have to diversify. For those of my age that is a lot harder to do than someone younger like your son


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry but this exemplifies the total lack of understanding of the mental anguish that many are going through at the moment.  Yes - go get a job - it’s that easy isn’t it.  Well no it isn’t.

Oh and by the way - whilst your at it just dump everything you’ve been doing and working towards for the last 6 years with no restart in sight, and btw - your sector might never recover...so it might well have to be forever - and that is a terrible blow and very difficult to get your head around.  This is not the same as losing your job and getting something to fill in whilst you look for another employer doing similar...but that is how some think it is.

The anguish and despair are real...and i thought we as a society had moved on from telling those suffering from depression and deep fears to ‘get over it and move on’.  Clearly not with some.
		
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You haven't read my post clearly enough. It's meant to offer him hope, not dismiss any mental anguish your son may be going through. 

This subject has been covered multiple times, I'm not going to continue with it. I wish you well.


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## Reemul (Oct 25, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Being harsh, you have been going on about his predicament for a good few months now. If he still hasn't looked at other avenues until the music industry returns to a degree of normality then to some degree I have little sympathy. There are jobs out there. Many will be menial and not what he'd want to do but the equation is simple. Do the work and get more income or carry on on UC and struggle.

I get the mental anguish side of things and have seen the effect it has had even on those that have worked through it, especially some of our medical and nursing teams. Not sure anyone on here has said "get over it" but I am sure having a better income stream would ease some of the financial worries. There will be a lot of people from many, many industries that will not be able to go back to the jobs they know and will have to diversify. For those of my age that is a lot harder to do than someone younger like your son
		
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Agree totally, I lost my job and spent 6 months picking up litter from a multi story car pack, if anyone thinks that was something I wanted to do but heck it was money, i've done some crap jobs when losing mine and would do so again


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 25, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Agree totally, I lost my job and spent 6 months picking up litter from a multi story car pack, if anyone thinks that was something I wanted to do but heck it was money, i've done some crap jobs when losing mine and would do so again
		
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Exactly. Sometimes it's about making ends meet. Not just now but going back to when I was a kid and my mum and dad both having to take some poorly paid and menial/dirty jobs to get food on the table, Fortunately it wasn't for too long but they had no issues about doing what was needed. I would have no problem stacking shelves or anything that paid more than I was getting on UC


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry but this exemplifies the total lack of understanding of the mental anguish that many are going through at the moment.  Yes - go get a job - it’s that easy isn’t it.  Well no it isn’t.

Oh and by the way - whilst your at it just dump everything you’ve been doing and working towards for the last 6 years with no restart in sight, and btw - your sector might never recover...so it might well have to be forever - and that is a terrible blow and very difficult to get your head around.  This is not the same as losing your job and getting something to fill in whilst you look for another employer doing similar...but that is how some think it is.

The anguish and despair are real...and i thought we as a society had moved on from telling those suffering from depression and deep fears to ‘get over it and move on’.  Clearly not with some.
		
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My Son in Law got his delivery job after three weeks, he has a wife and a disabled young Son. You either move on or things don't improve, it's not unusual to have to find other work when needs must.    The industry will probably recover in time, people will always love music.

I'm not sure why you keep posting this about your Son,  are you looking for advice or sympathy?  Members have expressed their views on what he should do and that's not going to change. It's not good that any of you are having your mental health affected but to look at the situation from an observer there are no children affected, him and his partner are getting benefits and are both available for work.  It could be a darn site worse.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry but this exemplifies the total lack of understanding of the mental anguish that many are going through at the moment.  Yes - go get a job - it’s that easy isn’t it.  Well no it isn’t.

Oh and by the way - whilst your at it just dump everything you’ve been doing and working towards for the last 6 years with no restart in sight, and btw - your sector might never recover...so it might well have to be forever - and that is a terrible blow and very difficult to get your head around.  This is not the same as losing your job and getting something to fill in whilst you look for another employer doing similar...but that is how some think it is.

The anguish and despair are real...and i thought we as a society had moved on from telling those suffering from depression and deep fears to ‘get over it and move on’.  Clearly not with some.

And btw - this thread is entitled ‘Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?’ And to that I have posted...
		
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Sorry but it really is that simple.  I'm in the same boat as your son. The job i loved doing basically disappeared overnight. I wasnt made unemployed but it was on the cards, so i went out and got another job. Not one i want to be doing, but its keeping a roof over my families head and food on the table, and that is all that is important right now. I hope my industry recovers and i can get back to it but its not looking good at the moment. Going out and finding work,any work, would probably be the best thing for your sons mental health


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## Fish (Oct 25, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Sorry but it really is that simple.  I'm in the same boat as your son. The job i loved doing basically disappeared overnight. I wasnt made unemployed but it was on the cards, so i went out and got another job. Not one i want to be doing, but its keeping a roof over my families head and food on the table, and that is all that is important right now. I hope my industry recovers and i can get back to it but its not looking good at the moment. Going out and finding work,any work, would probably be the best thing for your sons mental health
		
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Unfortunately we live in a complain & claim society, and it’s everyone else’s fault! 

Is this the same son who was late with his tax returns, wasn’t this a new venture and his first returns which if not submitted on time he wouldn’t be able to claim when the first lockdown occurred! 

Member/s on here advised you (SILH), and correct me if I’m wrong,  you had to do everything for him I believe. 

When I was setting up my first business and fitting out my shop, I was unloading ToysRus lorries in their warehouse on nights, you simply get off your arris and do what you need to do, you don’t sulk and moan and blame all & sundry, but, I personally think that as long as you share the same attitude and wet nurse him, he’ll never change, why would he? 

And if you think that’s harsh, tough, don’t post and look for sympathy when there’s many people far worse off than your mollycoddled son!


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## IainP (Oct 25, 2020)

Just over a month ago, there was a lot of debate around the 50K cases a day scenario 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...scientists-hit-warning-50000-covid-cases-day/

Note (sadly) that France report 52K cases today (population 65 million) 😐🤨
Hopefully it remains a figure not reached in the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2020)

Fish said:



			Unfortunately we live in a complain & claim society, and it’s everyone else’s fault!

Is this the same son who was late with his tax returns, wasn’t this a new venture and his first returns which if not submitted on time he wouldn’t be able to claim when the first lockdown occurred!

Member/s on here advised you (SILH), and correct me if I’m wrong,  you had to do everything for him I believe.

When I was setting up my first business and fitting out my shop, I was unloading ToysRus lorries in their warehouse on nights, you simply get off your arris and do what you need to do, you don’t sulk and moan and blame all & sundry, but, I personally think that as long as you share the same attitude and wet nurse him, he’ll never change, why would he?

And if you think that’s harsh, tough, don’t post and look for sympathy when there’s many people far worse off than your mollycoddled son!
		
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I’m not looking for any sympathy - I’m simply saying how coronavirus is affecting ME and my wife.  And when I heard the reporting today about the mental health issues that the coronavirus is having now and is likely to have in the future, with the young and the unemployed - I 100% got it. And I would hope that all here would also get the mental health issues that many are experiencing and that many will suffer from in the future as a result of the pandemic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Sorry but it really is that simple.  I'm in the same boat as your son. The job i loved doing basically disappeared overnight. I wasnt made unemployed but it was on the cards, so i went out and got another job. Not one i want to be doing, but its keeping a roof over my families head and food on the table, and that is all that is important right now. I hope my industry recovers and i can get back to it but its not looking good at the moment. Going out and finding work,any work, would probably be the best thing for your sons mental health
		
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Your experience is your experience. And do you not think my lad is not trying everything he can to get work?  Do you not think that there are many hundreds of thousands out there doing the same - desperately trying to come to terms with their circumstances and see a way ahead.  Do you think the reports about mental health issues many are suffering from are made up? Of course you don‘t. And it is very worrying - and that is MY experience.  It is not your e perience but that is not the title of the thread.


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## ger147 (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Sorry but this exemplifies the total lack of understanding of the mental anguish that many are going through at the moment.*  Yes - go get a job - it’s that easy isn’t it.  Well no it isn’t.

Oh and by the way - whilst your at it just dump everything you’ve been doing and working towards for the last 6 years with no restart in sight, and btw - your sector might never recover...so it might well have to be forever - and that is a terrible blow and very difficult to get your head around.  This is not the same as losing your job and getting something to fill in whilst you look for another employer doing similar...but that is how some think it is.

The anguish and despair are real...and i thought we as a society had moved on from telling those suffering from depression and deep fears to ‘get over it and move on’.  Clearly not with some.

And btw - this thread is entitled ‘Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?’ And to that I have posted...
		
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No it doesn't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You haven't read my post clearly enough. It's meant to offer him hope, not dismiss any mental anguish your son may be going through.

This subject has been covered multiple times, I'm not going to continue with it. I wish you well.
		
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Sorry sir! I’m just a bit sick and disappointed of how judgemental it seems some are about those who are really, really struggling at the moment - I’m afraid you got the brunt of my disappointment.  I appreciate your post was meant to be supportive.  Believe me we are trying all we can to support and encourage.  We know our lads struggles are not as difficult as many - but that is not what the thread is about.  It is about our personal experiences of how the pandemic is affecting us - and that is all I posted about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 25, 2020)

ger147 said:



			No it doesn't.
		
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I had to delete my initial response...

I post about how the pandemic is creating mental health issues in many - and that through personal experience I get it - and all that happens is that I get a load of critical and dismissive posts...great. Actually shameful.


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## ger147 (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had to delete my initial response...

I post about how the pandemic is creating mental health issues in many - and that through personal experience I get it - and all that happens is that I get a load of critical and dismissive posts...great. Actually shameful.
		
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None of that makes your previous response true that I replied to above.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your experience is your experience. And do you not think my lad is not trying everything he can to get work?  Do you not think that there are many hundreds of thousands out there doing the same - desperately trying to come to terms with their circumstances and see a way ahead.  Do you think the reports about mental health issues many are suffering from are made up? Of course you don‘t. And it is very worrying - and that is MY experience.  It is not your e perience but that is not the title of the thread.
		
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Don't tell me what I do and don't think. Sadly I no longer have the bank of mum and dad to fall back on, so its all on me. But there you go , thats life and we get on with it.


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had to delete my initial response...

I post about how the pandemic is creating mental health issues in many - and that through personal experience I get it - and all that happens is that I get a load of critical and dismissive posts...great. Actually shameful.
		
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Could your son not move back in with you until he gets back on his feet, that might take the pressure off.


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## chrisd (Oct 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had to delete my initial response...

I post about how the pandemic is creating mental health issues in many - and that through personal experience I get it - and all that happens is that I get a load of critical and dismissive posts...great. Actually shameful.
		
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It might be just that your own posting style on here has been exactly what you now criticise others for. It's difficult to forget long running posts of DMD's, Brexit,  Boris etc etc where you showed no sympathy for anyone else's views if they didn't fall in line with yours and you were rude to posters on a regular basis. 

You shall reap what you sow springs to mind


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## Kellfire (Oct 26, 2020)

Methinks some people on here are of the attitude of, “Yea and those hungry kids would be fine if they just tried to get food a bit harder!”


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Methinks some people on here are of the attitude of, “Yea and those hungry kids would be fine if they just tried to get food a bit harder!”
		
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In some cases it's true.
Below is an example of someone looking for a job on my local FB page

*Anyone no amy jobs going*

That was it.


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## Kellfire (Oct 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			In some cases it's true.
Below is an example of someone looking for a job on my local FB page

*Anyone no amy jobs going*

That was it.

Click to expand...

Yes, in some cases it is. But then we all know heartless people who will be of the opinion, “My neighbour claims benefits and has a smart phone!!!! IT IS A DISC RACE!!!!”

There’s a middle ground and people rarely adopt that stance.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It might be just that your own posting style on here has been exactly what you now criticise others for. It's difficult to forget long running posts of DMD's, Brexit,  Boris etc etc where you showed no sympathy for anyone else's views if they didn't fall in line with yours and you were rude to posters on a regular basis.

You shall reap what you sow springs to mind
		
Click to expand...

Or it might just be that people who disagreed with SILH's political views and used to have a go at him on those threads are continuing to play the poster rather the post...


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## Slab (Oct 26, 2020)

bobmac said:



			In some cases it's true.
Below is an example of someone looking for a job on my local FB page

*Anyone no amy jobs going*

That was it.

Click to expand...

Probably just someone having bit of laugh with an unamusing post because they know some folks will suspect it just might be genuine and share it around


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## chrisd (Oct 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Or it might just be that people who disagreed with SILH's political views and used to have a go at him on those threads are continuing to play the poster rather the post...
		
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Having been played many a time by him


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## hovis (Oct 26, 2020)

Sorry if this seems insensitive but when people talk about mental problems and "anxiety" because of covid. Especially in children, teens and young adults I just can't find it in myself to be sympathetic.  These people need to build some mental resilience.  This is a flash in the pan compared to what they may face in the future.  How will these people deal with paying off their mortgage to see the wife leave and take 75% of it and see Mr Big driving their car.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

Rather sad when it’s all got a bit personal, someone clearly has strong views and how Covid has affected his family and has kept to the subject , if you are unable to disagree with those without being personal then maybe it’s best to ignore them.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			Sorry if this seems insensitive but when people talk about mental problems and "anxiety" because of covid. Especially in children, teens and young adults I just can't find it in myself to be sympathetic.  These people need to build some mental resilience.  This is a flash in the pan compared to what they may face in the future.  How will these people deal with paying off their mortgage to see the wife leave and take 75% of it and see Mr Big driving their car.
		
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Ever thought of joining the Samaritans?


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## ger147 (Oct 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			Sorry if this seems insensitive but when people talk about mental problems and "anxiety" because of covid. Especially in children, teens and young adults I just can't find it in myself to be sympathetic.  These people need to build some mental resilience.  This is a flash in the pan compared to what they may face in the future.  How will these people deal with paying off their mortgage to see the wife leave and take 75% of it and see Mr Big driving their car.
		
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You should have got a better solicitor...


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## hovis (Oct 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Ever thought of joining the Samaritans?
		
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😂😂. This is actually a standing joke at work


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			Sorry if this seems insensitive but when people talk about mental problems and "anxiety" because of covid. Especially in children, teens and young adults I just can't find it in myself to be sympathetic.  These people need to build some mental resilience.  This is a flash in the pan compared to what they may face in the future.  How will these people deal with paying off their mortgage to see the wife leave and take 75% of it and see Mr Big driving their car.
		
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Can’t beat the old “man up” from the rough and rugged 20th century man - who mainly can’t understand that everyone’s brain works differently


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## hovis (Oct 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can’t beat the old “man up” from the rough and rugged 20th century man - who mainly can’t understand that everyone’s brain works differently
		
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I certainly don't think this attitude of covering your children in cotton wool helps anyone in the future.  There's nothing wrong with preparing your children for the challenges they will face later on in life as long as its proportionate


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## Kellfire (Oct 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			Sorry if this seems insensitive but when people talk about mental problems and "anxiety" because of covid. Especially in children, teens and young adults I just can't find it in myself to be sympathetic.  These people need to build some mental resilience.  This is a flash in the pan compared to what they may face in the future.  How will these people deal with paying off their mortgage to see the wife leave and take 75% of it and see Mr Big driving their car.
		
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And one man destroys the existence of a huge swathe of mental illness in one fell swoop. 

Concentrate on Covid-19 next, please?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			I certainly don't think this attitude of covering your children in cotton wool helps anyone in the future.  There's nothing wrong with preparing your children for the challenges they will face later on in life as long as its proportionate
		
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That’s bit different to what you posted though isn’t it - pretty much dismissive of the affects of Covid on young peoples mental health , as I said it’s just the standard Neanderthal man up you read from people who prob think it’s a sign of weakness to have a mental illness


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## hovis (Oct 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s bit different to what you posted though isn’t it - pretty much dismissive of the affects of Covid on young peoples mental health , as I said it’s just the standard Neanderthal man up you read from people who prob think it’s a sign of weakness to have a mental illness
		
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Not at all. I think mental illness is a big issue.    I just think too many people try and squeeze under this umbrella.   Feeling blue, having a few sleepless nights and having worries about your future is not a mental illness.   
I think some people need help, professional help.  I also think some people need to "man up" dust themselves off and realise life is tough and move forward.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

I just don't understand why he keeps posting about his Son, we've seen it about half a dozen times now.  I see the normal suspects are complaining about what others post but don't offer Hogie any advice.

I gave my opinion on his Sons situation, if he only wants replies that sympathise with his situation then this is never going to be the place to find it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I just don't understand why he keeps posting about his Son, we've seen it about half a dozen times now.  I see the normal suspects are complaining about what others post but don't offer Hogie any advice.

I gave my opinion on his Sons situation, if he only wants replies that sympathise with his situation then this is never going to be the place to find it.
		
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He posts about his Son because he can, the same people reply over and over again to him because they can.

Why can’t those ”usual suspects” stop offering their advice like you have?


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## Kellfire (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I just don't understand why he keeps posting about his Son, we've seen it about half a dozen times now.  I see the normal suspects are complaining about what others post but don't offer Hogie any advice.

I gave my opinion on his Sons situation, if he only wants replies that sympathise with his situation then this is never going to be the place to find it.
		
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Maybe he’s explaining how coronavirus has affected his son’s life and by proxy his, as per the thread title?

Perhaps venting it on here allows him to put things into perspective?

Or perhaps he should just man up, his son should man up, we ALL should man up and just eat bricks, punch windows and be overall much more masculine and between us we can testosterone away this pandemic! HEAR ME ROAR.


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## GB72 (Oct 26, 2020)

OK, I know that I am going to be unpopular about this but it just strikes me that the amount of sympathy and calls for support that you get is very much dependent on the job that you have. During the credit crunch certain elements of the legal profession were cut down to the core, there were mass redundancies in estate agency, mortgage advice, house building etc but the response at the time was more akin to 'serves them right' and there was no support available. Nobody at the time as calling for any help from these industries and professions and none was given. I lost my job at the time and so I worked bar jobs, supermarket jobs etc until I could get a job more suited to what I had trained to do. When I could find a job, it was a 2 hour drive to work every morning and so I was leaving home at 5.30 in the morning and getting back at 9.00 at night sometimes. Nearly cost me everything doing that for 2 years but it was the only option out there. 

Not saying that this as a 'man up' post or anything else like that but at least those suffering hardship at the moment have the support of the general public who wants the arts, hospitality etc to get back on their feet. It really is a bad place when you have lost your job, your industry is in pieces and the public are, at best, ambivalent to what happen and in a number of cases actually happy that your profession is collapsing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			Not at all. I think mental illness is a big issue.    I just think too many people try and squeeze under this umbrella.   Feeling blue, having a few sleepless nights and having worries about your future is not a mental illness.  
I think some people need help, professional help.  I also think some people need to "man up" dust themselves off and realise life is tough and move forward.
		
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So how do you judge who is “squeezing under the umbrella” as you call 

Sleepless nights , feeling down , worrying about future - all potential issues with both anxiety and mental illness and if untreated can get worse 

 No one should ever tell some to “man up” “dust themselves down” and carry on - it’s  that sort of thinking projected making people scared to speak out or seek help and then downward spiral - each person thinks differently , you maybe a bit rough and ready man’s man who can just shrug your shoulders and move on - not everyone thinks that way. Don’t judge everyone on your standards when it comes to mental health - it’s dangerous


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## DRW (Oct 26, 2020)




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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He posts about his Son because he can, the same people reply over and over again to him because they can.

Why can’t those ”usual suspects” stop offering their advice like you have?
		
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My point is they aren't offering Hogan advice, they are rather critisising others advice.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 26, 2020)

Could SilH's son do more to alleviate his financial situation?

Quite possibly.

But would that, at the same time,  help him deal with the mental health issues?

Almost certainly not.

The latter will be far more deep rooted than just worries over paying bills etc; and involve many other aspects of how he views his life.

I have suffered from severe depression and it first hit me when I was in a secure well paid  job, happily married with two healthy children.

What had I got to worry about?

On the face of it nothing, but the mind is a deep place and none of us know when or why it might lead us into some  very difficult and dark places.

Please , if you cannot at least empathise with Hogie's family's issues, just move on and keep the "man up" advice out of it.

As I see it he is not asking for sympathy for his son's financial predicament but merely detailing the effect that it's having upon their mental wellbeing as a family.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 26, 2020)

I 



MetalMickie said:



			Could SilH's son do more to alleviate his financial situation?

Quite possibly.

But would that, at the same time,  help him deal with the mental health issues?

Almost certainly not.

The latter will be far more deep rooted than just worries over paying bills etc; and involve many other aspects of how he views his life.

I have suffered from severe depression and it first hit me when I was in a secure well paid  job, happily married with two healthy children.

What had I got to worry about?

On the face of it nothing, but the mind is a deep place and none of us know when or why it might lead us into some  very difficult and dark places.

Please , if you cannot at least empathise with Hogie's family's issues, just move on and keep the "man up" advice out of it.

As I see it he is not asking for sympathy for his son's financial predicament but merely detailing the effect that it's having upon their mental wellbeing as a family.
		
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I think that’s a fair response, I will say though, I don’t think too many were intentionally unsympathetic to the sons mental anguish. It’s more that for probably a year it’s been documented about the career struggles. Long before covid. So it comes across at times that he was claiming Covid caused all the problems when In truth his sons choices put him in a pickle.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 26, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I
I think that’s a fair response, I will say though, I don’t think too many were intentionally unsympathetic to the sons mental anguish. It’s more that for probably a year it’s been documented about the career struggles. Long before covid. So it comes across at times that he was claiming Covid caused all the problems when In truth his sons choices put him in a pickle.
		
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And does any of that alter the fact that his mental health  and his family's  is affected?

The response of some would suggest that they haven't fully read SilH's post nor understand the thread title.

P.S. Having re-read this I am aware that it might seem I am including you in that criticism.

I am not.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And does any of that alter the fact that his mental health  and his family's  is affected?

The response of some would suggest that they haven't fully read SilH's post nor understand the thread title.
		
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No it doesn't change his sons problem. 

I'm just giving a reason as to why some will be less sympathetic when there must have been half a dozen threads about the problems he faced and the wall he would put up when even sensible advise was given.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			No it doesn't change his sons problem.

I'm just giving a reason as to why some will be less sympathetic when there must have been half a dozen threads about the problems he faced and the wall he would put up when even sensible advise was given.
		
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Some are less sympathetic because of the poster as opposed to the content - the poster has had strong views on some very recent issues (Brexit etc ) and been the polar opposite of opinion of those same opinion ( hence why various threads were mentioned ) - there is a lot of posting against the poster as opposed to the content


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## Papas1982 (Oct 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Some are less sympathetic because of the poster as opposed to the content - the poster has had strong views on some very recent issues (Brexit etc ) and been the polar opposite of opinion of those same opinion ( hence why various threads were mentioned ) - there is a lot of posting against the poster as opposed to the content
		
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I have avoided pretty much all the brexit content. I was simply stating what I've seen on multiple threads about his son. Which is what I consider as various threads. 

There may be others. But I've seen enough on the threads I mention to understand some peoples frustration in their responses.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My point is they aren't offering Hogan advice, they are rather critisising others advice.
		
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My point is, You, me all the others have offered advice in the past, he’s ignored it all, some of us have stopped responding, others continue! 

They have a choice as well.


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## drdel (Oct 26, 2020)

Meanwhile.... a hint for a certain offspring..

The Post Office, is looking for staff!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			My point is, You, me all the others have offered advice in the past, he’s ignored it all, some of us have stopped responding, others continue!

They have a choice as well.
		
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I've given him some advice again, I've tried to consider his situation including mental health issues.  I have to say though that if anyone doesn't like the advice people give on an open forum then it's probably best to seek it through other channels.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've given him some advice again, I've tried to consider his situation including mental health issues.  I have to say though that if anyone doesn't like the advice people give on an open forum then it's probably best to seek it through other channels.
		
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HE’S NOT ALWAYS ASKING FOR ADVICE, SIMPLY VENTING HIS FRUSTRATIONS.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've given him some advice again, I've tried to consider his situation including mental health issues.  I have to say though that if anyone doesn't like the advice people give on an open forum then it's probably best to seek it through other channels.
		
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Have you ever thought that he isn’t asking for your advice and is just venting his frustrations about the whole situation - maybe sometimes advice isn’t welcome


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I just don't understand why he keeps posting about his Son, we've seen it about half a dozen times now.  I see the normal suspects are complaining about what others post but don't offer Hogie any advice.

I gave my opinion on his Sons situation, if he only wants replies that sympathise with his situation then this is never going to be the place to find it.
		
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Jeez....

Prompted by the worries that many mental health professionals and mental health bodies have expressed over the weekend about the impact of the coronavirus on the wider UK society as MANY are really struggling - I posted in the context of this thread about _how coronavirus is affecting *me*_ and my wife - is that not what this thread is about? - and how worried *we are *for our son and for his mental health. And I was very specific about that.   I get the concerns of the professionals.  And the fact that it is not simply the individual with the issues who are affected - their struggles can have significant impact on those close to them.

OK? Is that clear?


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## GB72 (Oct 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jeez....

Prompted by the worries that many mental health professionals and mental health bodies have expressed over the weekend about the impact of the coronavirus on the wider UK society as MANY are really struggling - I posted in the context of this thread about _how coronavirus is affecting *me*_ and my wife - is that not what this thread is about? - and how worried we are for our son and for his mental health. And I was very specific about that.   I get the concerns of the professionals.  And the fact that it is not simply the individual with the issues who are affected - their struggles can have significant impact on those close to them.

OK? Is that clear?
		
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The important question is that are all those involved seeking help. I was brought up in the 70s, man up culture and it took me a long time and a lot of persuasion to seek the help I needed. As everyone seems to have come to terms with the fact that they are struggling with their mental health, is everyone now looking to get the professional help needed to at least ensure that everyone copes a little better.


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## azazel (Oct 26, 2020)

There's a great thread in here where people affected by Alzheimer's and dementia can post their stories, feelings and struggles and use the thread as a place to vent, let off steam, ask for advice or even pour their hearts out. Genuinely one of the best threads I've ever seen on any message board anywhere.

Has anyone stopped to think that there's the possibility that people posting on this thread might also be struggling for whatever reason and, rather than even offering "advice" (if you can call it that), a sympathetic ear or whatever might be much more appreciated than anyone would ever know? Wouldn't it be better for the whole board if everyone put aside whatever differences they have with any other poster and remember everyone's a human being rather than a messageboard username?


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## GB72 (Oct 26, 2020)

azazel said:



			There's a great thread in here where people affected by Alzheimer's and dementia can post their stories, feelings and struggles and use the thread as a place to vent, let off steam, ask for advice or even pour their hearts out. Genuinely one of the best threads I've ever seen on any message board anywhere.

Has anyone stopped to think that there's the possibility that people posting on this thread might also be struggling for whatever reason and, rather than even offering "advice" (if you can call it that), a sympathetic ear or whatever might be much more appreciated than anyone would ever know? Wouldn't it be better for the whole board if everyone put aside whatever differences they have with any other poster and remember everyone's a human being rather than a messageboard username?
		
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I think that some of this is down to how individuals process situations and respond to them. You explain your position to a few people, some may sit and just listen, others will try and take your mind off it, some will try to take you out to cheer you up and others, as in this case, process things practically and their immediate response to a problem is to try and offer advice and find a way out. That advice may not be sought or wanted (and it would actually help if people started a post by saying they are just venting, not looking for advice) but if that is not clear, that is just how some people process and deal with issues. I will be the first to admit that I am not an emotional person and I do not process emotional problems well and so when someone comes to me with one, my instant reaction is to move into a space that I am comfortable in and try and deal with the practicalities of a situation rather than the emotional support that may also be needed.


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## chrisd (Oct 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jeez....

Prompted by the worries that many mental health professionals and mental health bodies have expressed over the weekend about the impact of the coronavirus on the wider UK society as MANY are really struggling - I posted in the context of this thread about _how coronavirus is affecting *me*_ and my wife - is that not what this thread is about? - and how worried *we are *for our son and for his mental health. And I was very specific about that.   I get the concerns of the professionals.  And the fact that it is not simply the individual with the issues who are affected - their struggles can have significant impact on those close to them.

OK? Is that clear?
		
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My son was laid off some 3 weeks ago and my wife and I were deeply worried for reasons almost diametrically opposite to your son's issues, but nevertheless just as worrying for us. The last place that I would have looked for answers, sympathy or help is a golf forum.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			My son was laid off some 3 weeks ago and my wife and I were deeply worried for reasons almost diametrically opposite to your son's issues, but nevertheless just as worrying for us. The last place that I would have looked for answers, sympathy or help is a golf forum.
		
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He isn’t asking for answers or help or sympathy he is just venting at the situation for him and his family.


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2020)

Hogie's son has mental issues. In the main they have been brought on by Covid. Hogie and Mrs Hogie are suffering anxiety etc because of this.

We don't know anything else with any certainty. However, surely we are all capable of a little compassion?

If this was the son of your best mate, what would your response be? It is as simple as that.


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## chrisd (Oct 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He isn’t asking for answers or help or sympathy he is just venting at the situation for him and his family.
		
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Thanks ever so much Phil for your help to understand the matter. 

My correction:

This is the last place I'd look to vent my situation for me and my family, except to use "Random irritations" possibly 👍


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			HE’S NOT ALWAYS ASKING FOR ADVICE, SIMPLY VENTING HIS FRUSTRATIONS.
		
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Stop shouting


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Stop shouting
		
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Start listening and read what’s actually posted rather than what you want to read.


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## GB72 (Oct 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Hogie's son has mental issues. In the main they have been brought on by Covid. Hogie and Mrs Hogie are suffering anxiety etc because of this.

We don't know anything else with any certainty. However, surely we are all capable of a little compassion?

If this was the son of your best mate, what would your response be? It is as simple as that.
		
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My comments would be, I suspect, pretty much the same. I know that I do not deal with and process emotional situations and responses well and so my natural reaction is to defer to what I can comprehend and look towards practical solutions (advice) rather than try and address the matter on an emotional level. That comes from looking at my own shortcomings more than anything else but at least i know how I deal with issues that people bring to me and I guess my mates know whether I am the best person to come to in any given circumstance.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Hogie's son has mental issues. In the main they have been brought on by Covid. Hogie and Mrs Hogie are suffering anxiety etc because of this.

We don't know anything else with any certainty. However, surely we are all capable of a little compassion?

If this was the son of your best mate, what would your response be? It is as simple as that.
		
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I wouldn't be looking for comments on a golf forum.  I appreciate life not rosey for him and millions of people but we're not councillors in mental health issues just people who look at an issue and give what advice we can.  Hogie has been posting about his Sons problems a number of times and it always end up the same way, a mud slinging match where posters have differing views on what he should be doing.  I honestly think he needs to stop doing it and seek some professional help.

In saying this I don't wish him or his family any ill or malice and hope things turn out for the better in time.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Thanks ever so much Phil for your help to understand the matter.

My correction:

This is the last place I'd look to vent my situation for me and my family, except to use "Random irritations" possibly 👍
		
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Then I would suggest that you might be better off ignoring this thread.

As has been said many times this was intended to be somewhere that forum members could express what effect the virus was/is having upon them and, by definition,  those close to them.

It isn't necessarily intended to be  a vehicle for advice, no matter how well intentioned.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Start listening and read what’s actually posted rather than what you want to read.
		
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I read it as written, I don't want to read anything else into it. 

If he's venting frustrations and doesn't want advice then he needs to say so.  I have given him some advice which he can take or leave, that's up to him. Maybe you can take your own advice and read my comments to him then comment on them rather than what you want them to be.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you ever thought that he isn’t asking for your advice and is just venting his frustrations about the whole situation - maybe sometimes advice isn’t welcome
		
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Then make it clear from the outset otherwise others will interpret as they read it.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I read it as written, I don't want to read anything else into it.

*If he's venting frustrations and doesn't want advice then he needs to say so. * I have given him some advice which he can take or leave, that's up to him. Maybe you can take your own advice and read my comments to him then comment on them rather than what you want them to be.
		
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No he doesn't.

Maybe if the title of the thread was "Coronavirus - advice needed", or if he had actually asked for advice, then you would have a point, but it isn't and he didn't.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Then make it clear from the outset otherwise others will interpret as they read it.
		
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It’s clear to most apart the same old few who will constantly battle against him regardless of what he says - responding to the poster as opposed to what he posts - it’s ruined multiple threads on here to the point a subject has now been banned.

The fact others have mentioned “Brexit , DMD’s and Standing position “clearly show it’s the poster 
This post sums up everything very well


azazel said:



			There's a great thread in here where people affected by Alzheimer's and dementia can post their stories, feelings and struggles and use the thread as a place to vent, let off steam, ask for advice or even pour their hearts out. Genuinely one of the best threads I've ever seen on any message board anywhere.

Has anyone stopped to think that there's the possibility that people posting on this thread might also be struggling for whatever reason and, rather than even offering "advice" (if you can call it that), a sympathetic ear or whatever might be much more appreciated than anyone would ever know? Wouldn't it be better for the whole board if everyone put aside whatever differences they have with any other poster and remember everyone's a human being rather than a messageboard username?
		
Click to expand...


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## chrisd (Oct 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Then I would suggest that you might be better off ignoring this thread.

As has been said many times this was intended to be somewhere that forum members could express what effect the virus was/is having upon them and, by definition,  those close to them.

It isn't necessarily intended to be  a vehicle for advice, no matter how well intentioned.
		
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This is a thread that has gone over 10,000 posts -  10,000 posts haven't just been about the affect that Covid has had upon the poster, the posts have understandably been many and varied and opinions have been discussed at length. In fact I offered no advice to SILH and have no desire to do so as past postings suggest that he isn't particularly open to advice.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			This is a thread that has gone over 10,000 posts -  10,000 posts haven't just been about the affect that Covid has had upon the poster, the posts have understandably been many and varied and opinions have been discussed at length. In fact I offered no advice to SILH and have no desire to do so* as past postings suggest that he isn't particularly open to advice.*

Click to expand...

you just couldn't resist having another pop at him, could you?


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## chrisd (Oct 26, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			you just couldn't resist having another pop at him, could you?
		
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No!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			This is a thread that has gone over 10,000 posts -  10,000 posts haven't just been about the affect that Covid has had upon the poster, the posts have understandably been many and varied and opinions have been discussed at length. In fact I offered no advice to SILH and have no desire to do so as past postings suggest that he isn't particularly open to advice.
		
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But has he ever said that he was seeking advice?


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

In line with the thread - I seem to have found out one families struggles in adapting to the present circumstances.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 26, 2020)

I have huge sympathy for those in the arts and the impact of Covid on their chosen profession. It is precarious in the best of times but Covid has increased that. For sure many have always taken jobs as waiters etc to keep the wolves from the door and I admire that resiliance. 

I do believe things will return to normal and hopefully by mid 2021 we'll see that happening. Until then it will be a struggle for those that choose such a career - same as for many at the moment. I'd say "chin up" rather than "man up" - this will pass.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But has he ever said that he was seeking advice?
		
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Did he suggest he wasn't.

If someone suggests they are having mental health problems due to a set of circumstances that are affecting their life then it's quite reasonable for the addressee to make some suggestions on how that person could do things to alleviate the circumstances and lessen the pressures such that it would help improve their mental health.

If the poster only wanted to vent frustrations then to me it would make sense to explain that and clarify they didn't want any help.  Regarding some not empathasing with their situation, I can only say that people have their own ways and filters on how they perceive the World and life, it's naive in the extreme to expect everyone to hold the same or even similar views.

Sometimes empathy is not the best way as it's possible for someone inside the issue to be so consumed by events that they can be blinded to the solution, this is why councillors and advisors are often able to see the solution due to not being affected by the emotional aspects of the issue.

I do understand how SILH and his wife are concerned about their Sons future, as Parents that's what we do and worry ourselves about.  Fortunately his Son and Partner have no children and don't appear to be homeless or without income. I have suggested that the entertainment industry is flat on its face and probably will be for some time but will come back again. In the meantime it's best to look for something else to do as doing nothing will not improve their mental health.

That's how I see it and will leave the matter at that to stop it being a cyclic discussion about who has or hasn't the correct levels of empathy.


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## chrisd (Oct 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But has he ever said that he was seeking advice?
		
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Did I ever say I was giving advice?


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## Ethan (Oct 26, 2020)

This thread has taken an interesting turn recently. Some strongly held views and issues, although not the sort of stuff that has objective data to back it up, lots of personal and individual experiences. I worked in psychiatry many years ago - it has been a while - but my OH still works in it, and it is interesting how people react to these challenging external events like Covid. Some have found major effects on their careers, lifestyles and health, others much less, and different people seem to react often very differently to what on the surface to be appears to be similar events. Of course, the consequences of those events and the way they relate to previous life events are often very different, and indivudla personality traits can be very different too. 

I think it is quite difficult to criticise people for their personal view on how an experience has affected them, even if it has affected you differently, whether that it is to display more resilience or to understand how someone might find it impossible to deal with. It is one thing to take your own advice, another to dispense it to others. 

One thing for sure, the effects of Covid on people, families and the wider society are far from over. The aftermath might be worse than the acute event.


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This thread has taken an interesting turn recently. Some strongly held views and issues, although not the sort of stuff that has objective data to back it up, lots of personal and individual experiences. I worked in psychiatry many years ago - it has been a while - but my OH still works in it, and it is interesting how people react to these challenging external events like Covid. Some have found major effects on their careers, lifestyles and health, others much less, and different people seem to react often very differently to what on the surface to be appears to be similar events. Of course, the consequences of those events and the way they relate to previous life events are often very different, and indivudla personality traits can be very different too.

I think it is quite difficult to criticise people for their personal view on how an experience has affected them, even if it has affected you differently, whether that it is to display more resilience or to understand how someone might find it impossible to deal with. It is one thing to take your own advice, another to dispense it to others.

One thing for sure, the effects of Covid on people, families and the wider society are far from over. The aftermath might be worse than the acute event.
		
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And I think that post would be a great re-start to the thread now that it’s gone through politics and personal tit for tats in the last week.

I won’t hold my breath though.


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## GB72 (Oct 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This thread has taken an interesting turn recently. Some strongly held views and issues, although not the sort of stuff that has objective data to back it up, lots of personal and individual experiences. I worked in psychiatry many years ago - it has been a while - but my OH still works in it, and it is interesting how people react to these challenging external events like Covid. Some have found major effects on their careers, lifestyles and health, others much less, and different people seem to react often very differently to what on the surface to be appears to be similar events. Of course, the consequences of those events and the way they relate to previous life events are often very different, and indivudla personality traits can be very different too.

I think it is quite difficult to criticise people for their personal view on how an experience has affected them, even if it has affected you differently, whether that it is to display more resilience or to understand how someone might find it impossible to deal with. It is one thing to take your own advice, another to dispense it to others.

One thing for sure, the effects of Covid on people, families and the wider society are far from over. The aftermath might be worse than the acute event.
		
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It is strange how this can creep up you. I thought I was coping really well with the whole thing but then a couple of weeks ago I realised that I had slowly but surely been reducing the sort of things I would do, contracting the distances I was willing to travel until I was pretty much just spending time at work, at home and occasionally at one friend's house. Thing is, I never realised I was doing it, finding subtle reasons not to go places or do things then the realisation about my change in behaviour struck home and I trying to slowly expand my boundaries again.


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is strange how this can creep up you. I thought I was coping really well with the whole thing but then a couple of weeks ago I realised that I had slowly but surely been reducing the sort of things I would do, contracting the distances I was willing to travel until I was pretty much just spending time at work, at home and occasionally at one friend's house. Thing is, I never realised I was doing it, finding subtle reasons not to go places or do things then the realisation about my change in behaviour struck home and I trying to slowly expand my boundaries again.
		
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We had a very similar conversation earlier today. Apart from 3 visits to some friends who moved 30 miles away just before lockdown, we've not been out of the valley. Normally, we'd be all over southern Spain, staying away several times a year as well as the usual day trips.

That said, we've got plans for next Sept. Drive to Lisbon, about 8 hours. Stop there for a week then fly on to New York for a week.


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## Ethan (Oct 26, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is strange how this can creep up you. I thought I was coping really well with the whole thing but then a couple of weeks ago I realised that I had slowly but surely been reducing the sort of things I would do, contracting the distances I was willing to travel until I was pretty much just spending time at work, at home and occasionally at one friend's house. Thing is, I never realised I was doing it, finding subtle reasons not to go places or do things then the realisation about my change in behaviour struck home and I trying to slowly expand my boundaries again.
		
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When Covid first appeared, an idea arose that it would kill granny or people with immune deficiencies, make middle aged fat people quite unwell for a while and barely affect younger people. I think we now realise it is much more complicated, with long Covid, downstream complications and I fully expect a bunch of other issues that rear up in later years. Those effects are not just physical, and psychological effects including PTSD and other changes in thinking and perception are emerging now. I foresee rises in suicide rates in Covid survivors a year or more after "recovery". The economic effects will eventually pass for society overall, it always does, but will leave behind people whose businesses and lives have been irreparably ruined. The debate over whether this is worse than the effects of lockdown, some of which are quite similar, will continue for years. This is a multi-dimensional pandemic that will leave nobody unaffected.


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			When Covid first appeared, an idea arose that it would *kill granny or people with immune deficiencies, make middle aged fat people quite unwell for a while and barely affect younger people*. I think we now realise it is much more complicated, with long Covid, downstream complications and I fully expect a bunch of other issues that rear up in later years. Those effects are not just physical, and psychological effects including PTSD and other changes in thinking and perception are emerging now. I foresee rises in suicide rates in Covid survivors a year or more after "recovery". The economic effects will eventually pass for society overall, it always does, but will leave behind people whose businesses and lives have been irreparably ruined. The debate over whether this is worse than the effects of lockdown, some of which are quite similar, will continue for years. This is a multi-dimensional pandemic that will leave nobody unaffected.
		
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The impact on school/college going kids is also going to be tough one.  I see my son and his friends.  They initially struggled, but most of them (mentally) unaffected over summer once sports was allowed. However as winter starts and no longer outdoor activities are on, it will start to bite.  Too much screen time, some already struggling to have a conversation in the real world. Will we lose a (sub) generation of kids?

I did not want to mention about the hunger issue, but could not help notice that Hancock lied on national TV about Bojo talking to Rashford.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The impact on school/college going kids is also going to be tough one.  I see my son and his friends.  They initially struggled, but most of them (mentally) unaffected over summer once sports was allowed. However as winter starts and no longer outdoor activities are on, it will start to bite.  Too much screen time, some already struggling to have a conversation in the real world. Will we lose a (sub) generation of kids?

I did not want to mention about the hunger issue, but could not help notice that Hancock lied on national TV about Bojo talking to Rashford.
		
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My three Grandsons in the USA have been doing online schoolwork since March and seem to be managing ok with it.  I also have a Daughter in the UK doing an OU degree along with a separate diploma course online and managed a Distinction for the years work.

It is hard discipline to study online, I did an OU Degree some years ago when it was video and Caset tapes with text books along with a full time job, it's very hard work.


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## Mudball (Oct 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My three Grandsons in the USA have been doing online schoolwork since March and seem to be managing ok with it.  I also have a Daughter in the UK doing an OU degree along with a separate diploma course online and managed a Distinction for the years work.

It is hard discipline to study online, I did an OU Degree some years ago when it was video and Caset tapes with text books along with a full time job, it's very hard work.
		
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Online is hard on kids... one of the joys of being in school is the social skills we pick up interacting with others - kids, teachers etc.  That seems lost.  One of our friends kid who is now Y7 (so no exams) says all the kids turn off video and play xbox. ...  as i m gluttony for punishment, i too am starting an online course next week.. will be tough 

BTW, online school is hard on kids, but equally hard on parents. I have my son on his zoom trying to imitate the way i talk on my conf calls .. scary.


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## garyinderry (Oct 27, 2020)

Little concerned about how long it takes for the track and trace app to alert a close contact. 

A fella in our lab tested positive on Saturday morning. Filled out what needs to be done for the app. 

A girl working along side him only got the message yesterday morning. 

That's all day Saturday, Sunday and some of Monday morn potentially spreading the virus. 

This is far too long.


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2020)

Not health related, but I think fits the thread brief.
Mortgage deal was coming to an end. What in the past seemed relatively straightforward it just seems so hard now. Long phone queue times, call backs promised but don't happen. So, end up too close to next payment so back on standard rate which opens the door wider for shopping around. But next provider chosen seems the same, online broken, huge queues etc.
If anyone can recommend providers to look at that have decent current operating models, please share.


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## GB72 (Oct 27, 2020)

IainP said:



			Not health related, but I think fits the thread brief.
Mortgage deal was coming to an end. What in the past seemed relatively straightforward it just seems so hard now. Long phone queue times, call backs promised but don't happen. So, end up too close to next payment so back on standard rate which opens the door wider for shopping around. But next provider chosen seems the same, online broken, huge queues etc.
If anyone can recommend providers to look at that have decent current operating models, please share.
		
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Deal with mortgage companies every day and most of them are an hour queue on the phone. The only one I can get hold of easily at the moment are First Direct.


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## road2ruin (Oct 27, 2020)

My sister in law announced that she's separating from her husband as he's started drinking quite heavily and has lost all motivation to do anything so doesn't leave the house. To be honest I really feel for the guy, since I've known him he's talked about being a pilot, I always thought it was one of those things he'd wish he could do but a couple of years ago he made it a reality by re-mortgaging their house so he could do the training. They had to make huge lifestyle changes due to the costs of the training but it was done on the basis of future earnings and him having a career that had been a dream for so many years previously.

His training started, he lived away from home at various locations around the world however progressed well and was always towards the top of the class so all was good and the dream was pretty close. In February he had one final exam to pass and then it was on to getting his hours in and his dream would be realised. Sadly Covid hit and his exam was shelved. That wasn’t really the hardest part, the real kick in the bollocks was being told that even if he had passed (which was expected) the chances of him getting a job were zero. Even at the best of times you have to work your way up and get the flying hours in but suddenly this was impossible to do. There were experienced pilots all over the shot looking for work and a newbie was so far back in the queue that he was advised to give up straight away and look for other work.

He's a pretty positive chap and got himself a job with Sainsbury’s driving a van and he seemed to be coping however behind the scenes he wasn’t and the longer it went on the worst it got for him and now he finds himself in this position. For me personally, I have run my own company for 11 years and I am presently running at 25% of normal work, with budgets already cut for next year this figure is unlikely to improve all that much however I can see it out so I will just tread water for a year or so and see what happens. I realise that even in my pretty rubbish situation there are a load out there worse off.


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2020)

IainP said:



			Not health related, but I think fits the thread brief.
Mortgage deal was coming to an end. What in the past seemed relatively straightforward it just seems so hard now. Long phone queue times, call backs promised but don't happen. So, end up too close to next payment so back on standard rate which opens the door wider for shopping around. But next provider chosen seems the same, online broken, huge queues etc.
If anyone can recommend providers to look at that have decent current operating models, please share.
		
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Mortgage providers are all maxed out with staff shortage/WFH along with a surge in demand due to stamp duty holiday.  A friend who works in backoffice quant analysis at a Big 4 bank says that they are all being drafted in on mortgage duties. 

Do you need to speak to a provider? 

I am with Santander and of all the providers we have had in the past, i do recommend them.  about 3-4 months b4 end of contract they always send out their next offer.  I have yet to see any other player beat that quote - esp since they dont need new valuations and legal if you sign up.   This year, we wanted a change in terms, so i had to call up. fairly stratight forward.  but the lady could not solve it and had to escalate.  So they booked a tele appointment.  Again went thru the motions (but it was well managed).  No hassle.  Now on a 1.29% 2-year deal.   Cant complain


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## DanFST (Oct 27, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			My sister in law announced that she's separating from her husband as he's started drinking quite heavily and has lost all motivation to do anything so doesn't leave the house.
		
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My ex did the same to me when my depression hit a few years ago, broke me. 

Really feel for the guy, I can't explain how hard it was to do anything, even shower!


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			My sister in law announced that she's separating from her husband as he's started drinking quite heavily and has lost all motivation to do anything so doesn't leave the house. To be honest I really feel for the guy, since I've known him he's talked about being a pilot, I always thought it was one of those things he'd wish he could do but a couple of years ago he made it a reality by re-mortgaging their house so he could do the training. They had to make huge lifestyle changes due to the costs of the training but it was done on the basis of future earnings and him having a career that had been a dream for so many years previously.

His training started, he lived away from home at various locations around the world however progressed well and was always towards the top of the class so all was good and the dream was pretty close. In February he had one final exam to pass and then it was on to getting his hours in and his dream would be realised. Sadly Covid hit and his exam was shelved. That wasn’t really the hardest part, the real kick in the bollocks was being told that even if he had passed (which was expected) the chances of him getting a job were zero. Even at the best of times you have to work your way up and get the flying hours in but suddenly this was impossible to do. There were experienced pilots all over the shot looking for work and a newbie was so far back in the queue that he was advised to give up straight away and look for other work.

He's a pretty positive chap and got himself a job with Sainsbury’s driving a van and he seemed to be coping however behind the scenes he wasn’t and the longer it went on the worst it got for him and now he finds himself in this position. For me personally, I have run my own company for 11 years and I am presently running at 25% of normal work, with budgets already cut for next year this figure is unlikely to improve all that much however I can see it out so I will just tread water for a year or so and see what happens. I realise that even in my pretty rubbish situation there are a load out there worse off.
		
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Sorry to hear about the situation.  Agree things are not the best at the moment, and unfortunately some professions getting hit more than others.  The mental side of this is unfortunately taking a massive toll on every one.   Hang in there..


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## DRW (Oct 27, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			My sister in law announced that she's separating from her husband as he's started drinking quite heavily and has lost all motivation to do anything so doesn't leave the house. To be honest I really feel for the guy, since I've known him he's talked about being a pilot, I always thought it was one of those things he'd wish he could do but a couple of years ago he made it a reality by re-mortgaging their house so he could do the training. They had to make huge lifestyle changes due to the costs of the training but it was done on the basis of future earnings and him having a career that had been a dream for so many years previously.

His training started, he lived away from home at various locations around the world however progressed well and was always towards the top of the class so all was good and the dream was pretty close. In February he had one final exam to pass and then it was on to getting his hours in and his dream would be realised. Sadly Covid hit and his exam was shelved. That wasn’t really the hardest part, the real kick in the bollocks was being told that even if he had passed (which was expected) the chances of him getting a job were zero. Even at the best of times you have to work your way up and get the flying hours in but suddenly this was impossible to do. There were experienced pilots all over the shot looking for work and a newbie was so far back in the queue that he was advised to give up straight away and look for other work.

He's a pretty positive chap and got himself a job with Sainsbury’s driving a van and he seemed to be coping however behind the scenes he wasn’t and the longer it went on the worst it got for him and now he finds himself in this position. For me personally, I have run my own company for 11 years and I am presently running at 25% of normal work, with budgets already cut for next year this figure is unlikely to improve all that much however I can see it out so I will just tread water for a year or so and see what happens. I realise that even in my pretty rubbish situation there are a load out there worse off.
		
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One of the many sad stories that are unfolding. As has been proved many times, economic success brings/affects health and wealth.

We know someone who was going down the pilot route, costs eye watering amounts and commitment. His plans have been put on hold similar to the above.

Feel for them and hope things get better.


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## road2ruin (Oct 27, 2020)

DRW said:



			We know someone who was going down the pilot route, costs eye watering amounts and commitment. His plans have been put on hold similar to the above.

Feel for them and hope things get better.
		
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Sadly for my SIL's husband the timing couldn't have been worse, the money has been paid (over £100,000 I'm lead to believe) and the course completed but the timing of the virus has meant that it's been brought to a shuddering halt. 

This guy has always been a hard worker, spent years putting away money whilst doing a job he hated to get to the point that they could use the additional mortgage money for him to go after his dream and, hopefully in time, mean a better future for the family. He's now got the double whammy of (pretty much) looking at a shiny new pilots licence that is useless whilst having the constant financial reminder of what it has cost him. He's tried to be positive and went out in his Sainsbury's van but finally it's got too much for him and he's just about to lose everything on both a personal and financial level. One amongst many I suspect and the fallout of this will go on for years and well past any vaccine sadly.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 27, 2020)

Daughter in laws test took 3 days to come back, inconclusive 🙄


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## DRW (Oct 27, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Sadly for my SIL's husband the timing couldn't have been worse, the money has been paid (over £100,000 I'm lead to believe) and the course completed but the timing of the virus has meant that it's been brought to a shuddering halt.

This guy has always been a hard worker, spent years putting away money whilst doing a job he hated to get to the point that they could use the additional mortgage money for him to go after his dream and, hopefully in time, mean a better future for the family. He's now got the double whammy of (pretty much) looking at a shiny new pilots licence that is useless whilst having the constant financial reminder of what it has cost him. He's tried to be positive and went out in his Sainsbury's van but finally it's got too much for him and he's just about to lose everything on both a personal and financial level. One amongst many I suspect and the fallout of this will go on for years and well past any vaccine sadly.
		
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The economic disaster I am starting to see first hand with my business, bit like you are in your business. A lot of which that is not directly linked to the virus, but policies in shutting big chunks of the economy/people down. Some industries are directly affected and travel would have taken a massive hit from a virus spreading, not that makes his situation any easily to cope with. 

Yeah think I remember the youngish lad we know saying he was around 50kish in and think he had about another year to go. Done loads of flying hours which was costing a lot, training courses etc.

Must be terrible to have your world pulled away from under you and be almost left with what feels like nothing and in debt, that your SIL husband has seen. Its how you can end up in a very long dark tunnel, that you can not see the light at the end, hope he keeps fighting and gets though it.

Tough days.


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2020)

Probably the saddest thread to read today... what is wrong with this country ... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1320772663363686401


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## Tashyboy (Oct 27, 2020)

Really feel for those who have made a commitment to a career and had the plug pulled through no fault of there own. I know when the pits were shutting I sat with me head in me hands thinking how am I gonna pay off me 35K mortgage. How times have change. 
Oddly enough and I have said this before, golf helped quite a few lads get through dark days and I know of two lads who shed tears talking rammel to Tash Whilst on the course. If I had one piece of advice. It would be to talk talk talk. Also some people may find themselves in a position where they may well have to listen.


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## pendodave (Oct 27, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Really feel for those who have made a commitment to a career and had the plug pulled through no fault of there own. I know when the pits were shutting I sat with me head in me hands thinking how am I gonna pay off me 35K mortgage. How times have change.
Oddly enough and I have said this before, golf helped quite a few lads get through dark days and I know of two lads who shed tears talking rammel to Tash Whilst on the course. If I had one piece of advice. It would be to talk talk talk. Also some people may find themselves in a position where they may well have to listen.
		
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Heartfelt words.
Losing control of your life through actions completely out of your control is a terrible thing.


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Really feel for those who have made a commitment to a career and had the plug pulled through no fault of there own. I know when the pits were shutting I sat with me head in me hands thinking how am I gonna pay off me 35K mortgage. How times have change.
Oddly enough and I have said this before, golf helped quite a few lads get through dark days and I know of two lads who shed tears talking rammel to Tash Whilst on the course. If I had one piece of advice. It would be to talk talk talk. Also some people may find themselves in a position where they may well have to listen.
		
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i agree Tashy... not a day has gone by in lockdown, when i dont worry about having a job at some point.  2 weeks ago i (finally) played a round.  It was crap, but it was good to get out of the house and see someone else.  But the talk was still about how we get thru... 

I am also trying to avoid alcohol.  at the start of the lockdown, it was a bit of an 'open bar' in the home office..  Soon it was becoming a problem. so i am swinging the other way.  Drink water or a cup of tea.  I do have a piss-up coming up with mates. but these are far and few between.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 27, 2020)

Mudball said:



			i agree Tashy... not a day has gone by in lockdown, when i dont worry about having a job at some point.  2 weeks ago i (finally) played a round.  It was crap, but it was good to get out of the house and see someone else.  But the talk was still about how we get thru...

I am also trying to avoid alcohol.  at the start of the lockdown, it was a bit of an 'open bar' in the home office..  Soon it was becoming a problem. so i am swinging the other way.  Drink water or a cup of tea.  I do have a piss-up coming up with mates. but these are far and few between.
		
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👍
one of the lads who I had a teary session with. He told me when he got home he felt like the world had been lifted off his shoulders. So much so his Missis told him point blank “ that next time he is at the course he makes himself a five day member“. She said the change in him was remarkable .So much so he is now a 7 day member but he knows Sunday is a day with her end of.
The change in him is fantastic, so much so I was chuffed to bits that next May is his 50th and we are having 3 days in Southport playing Southport and Ainsdale, Birkdale and an other. He is buzzing.
Oddly enough he had hit the Guinness and that was part of his problem.
A Couple of years ago when his head was not right we went up to the northeast and met up with some forum lads. We played Tyneside GC and was due to play “man in blacks“ course the day after. I got a gippy tummy So I could not play. Me main man. Well let’s just say MIB took us out and showed us some fantastic sights and me PP got a taste for the Guinness. I woke up at 6 am with stomach cramps, rushed to the toilet and PP was fast on in the bath. I literally crapped myself. He had the hangover from hell so we had to kick MIBs golf day in the head. He laughs about it now but realises it was not a good time for him especially when having to many.
Hope the light at the end of the tunnel a bit brighter Muddy.


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## Sweep (Oct 27, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is strange how this can creep up you. I thought I was coping really well with the whole thing but then a couple of weeks ago I realised that I had slowly but surely been reducing the sort of things I would do, contracting the distances I was willing to travel until I was pretty much just spending time at work, at home and occasionally at one friend's house. Thing is, I never realised I was doing it, finding subtle reasons not to go places or do things then the realisation about my change in behaviour struck home and I trying to slowly expand my boundaries again.
		
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This post made me think.
Here in Tier 2 and surrounded by Tier 3, there is no visiting anyone outside your household really. (It’s confusing but that’s pretty much the sum of it). So life has been at first very quickly and then slowly reduced to work, golf and home. And I am lucky I can play golf. Going out is a pain due to masks etc and fear of catching it, even having a drink in the clubhouse is one to a table, so not a very sociable activity. Hard to laugh and joke from a distance. So the end result is you don’t bother.
However, in an odd way I think it has made me think differently. In normal times I am always rushing around, hardly time to eat, serving on committees, always an event to attend. In this regard I have looked at it as a break from the norm and I think it has made me realise I need to do a bit less. Little of the rushing around I do is vital after all.
I am not saying I don’t want my normal life back. Right now I would snap your hand off if offered and I did notice when stuff at my club came up around the WHS I was first in the queue to put some stuff together. I have no doubt that as soon as it’s over I will be right back at it. But I do think in an odd way it has given me a chance to reevaluate and whilst I am already warning myself not to back off too far, I am thinking I need to do a bit less.


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## Mudball (Oct 27, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			👍
one of the lads who I had a teary session with. He told me when he got home he felt like the world had been lifted off his shoulders. So much so his Missis told him point blank “ that next time he is at the course he makes himself a five day member“. She said the change in him was remarkable .So much so he is now a 7 day member but he knows Sunday is a day with her end of.
The change in him is fantastic, so much so I was chuffed to bits that next May is his 50th and we are having 3 days in Southport playing Southport and Ainsdale, Birkdale and an other. He is buzzing.
Oddly enough he had hit the Guinness and that was part of his problem.
A Couple of years ago when his head was not right we went up to the northeast and met up with some forum lads. We played Tyneside GC and was due to play “man in blacks“ course the day after. I got a gippy tummy So I could not play. Me main man. Well let’s just say MIB took us out and showed us some fantastic sights and me PP got a taste for the Guinness. I woke up at 6 am with stomach cramps, rushed to the toilet and PP was fast on in the bath. I literally crapped myself. He had the hangover from hell so we had to kick MIBs golf day in the head. He laughs about it now but realises it was not a good time for him especially when having to many.
Hope the light at the end of the tunnel a bit brighter Muddy.
		
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tnx mate.. if i did not have so many debts, responsibilities  or big aspirations for my kid to grow into then i might be a different place.  there was a time when i was playing golf every week - sometimes take a day off to play. I haven't found a better sanctuary than a golf course.  If i do win the lottery tonight (and i have finally bought a ticket), then it will take care of the finances and allow me freedom to play more.  But i think the world is in a different place and money will only go so far.  

This month i went for a dinner with work mates, played a round of golf and now have another pissup coming up.    This is the most i have done since March..


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 27, 2020)

Some political posts have been removed and an infraction issued.

Once again, please note that political posts or discussions are not allowed on the GM Forum


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 27, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Some political posts have been removed and an infraction issued.

Once again, please note that political posts or discussions are not allowed on the GM Forum
		
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If someone posts something and it gets removed/deleted do they then get a message from the Mods? I posted something in the Laughter the Best Medicine thread a couple of nights ago and then it disappeared. I've got no problem with it being removed (if it was) as it was a bit political - even though I posted it because I thought it was funny rather than as a political comment - but I haven't had a message or slap on the wrist for posting it. I'd had a few when I posted it and didn't know if I'd somehow deleted it or if it had been modded, and didn't want to try posting it again if it had been removed for breaking the rules.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 27, 2020)

Fret not, stuff can get removed or edited and the poster is often only contacted if it’s  a major breach.

One of those things where no news is good news, 👍


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## Crazyface (Oct 27, 2020)

So I'm a delivery person for a supermarket. Delivered today to a house on an estate that had allthe houses  looked like I was in Beverly Hills. The one I had to deliver to had load of bluddy steps up to the door. The only one that did!!! Just my luck. As I struggled up the piggin' steps to the top there was a notice stuck to the door to say "We are self isolating. Leave any items at the door. If you need to speak to us ring this number XXXXXXXXX" Great just piggin' great! So I started to unload all the items neatly outside the door, when suddenly the door flew open and an old woman say "Hiya" and started to lean past me and grab the items to take in. I nearly jumped out of my skin!!!!!!!!
Just what part of Self Isolating were they doing? Do they actaully know what it means? We've also had people open the door to us (not me) and say they've got COVID and lean in to get their stuff!!!!!! 
Don't tell me about the NHS people. You wanna be a supermarket delivery driver!!!!!


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## Tashyboy (Oct 27, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			So I'm a delivery person for a supermarket. Delivered today to a house on an estate that had allthe houses  looked like I was in Beverly Hills. The one I had to deliver to had load of bluddy steps up to the door. The only one that did!!! Just my luck. As I struggled up the piggin' steps to the top there was a notice stuck to the door to say "We are self isolating. Leave any items at the door. If you need to speak to us ring this number XXXXXXXXX" Great just piggin' great! So I started to unload all the items neatly outside the door, when suddenly the door flew open and an old woman say "Hiya" and started to lean past me and grab the items to take in. I nearly jumped out of my skin!!!!!!!!
Just what part of Self Isolating were they doing? Do they actaully know what it means? We've also had people open the door to us (not me) and say they've got COVID and lean in to get their stuff!!!!!!
Don't tell me about the NHS people. You wanna be a supermarket delivery driver!!!!!
		
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Came out of isolation at 23.59 last night, 2 weeks of pure purgatory. How anyone can be a career criminal knowing they could do time inside al l never know. You must of looked like Jesus walking down the drive. Highlight of there lockdown.🤔😳😁


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## DanFST (Oct 28, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Came out of isolation at 23.59 last night, 2 weeks of pure purgatory. How anyone can be a career criminal knowing they could do time inside al l never know. You must of looked like Jesus walking down the drive. Highlight of there lockdown.🤔😳😁
		
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Did my isolation when the world was normal before lockdown. I can't use the language i'd want on here. But it sucks...


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## spongebob59 (Oct 28, 2020)

Day 5 of my self isolation, bored.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			Day 5 of my self isolation, bored.
		
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What are you reading?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2020)

These days I'm not hearing quite so much emphasis being put on transmission of the virus through touching surfaces - and whilst I still hear the 'wash hands' mantra, I'm not sure that folks are as focussed on that aspect of preventing transmission as we were at the outset.

Me and my wife are still very careful about what we touch when out; how we touch things when we must - and I'm forever using disinfectant when going into and coming out of shops and when we get home. And I avoid touching my face and facemask when out.  But I sense that we are in general not quite so diligent as we were...and I see a lot of handling of goods and food in the stores...

Also thinking I must take disinfectant with me when out so if I have to manually key my PIN to complete a transaction I can disinfect my hands afterwards. At the moment I am very conscious that I don't...but do take care afterwards not to touch face etc   Of course I should also disinfect my hands BEFORE entering my PIN...if I have not already done so when going into the store or whatever.


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 28, 2020)

Not sure which thread to put this in however it is COVID related.

There are 6 guys at our place 3 in Tier 1 and 3 in Tier 2. They have 2 slots and throw the balls up when they arrive using the excuse of being in a bubble.

Is this allowed and would it be any different if ALL in  Tier 1?


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 28, 2020)

I don’t know what throw the balls up is but they can play together.


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2020)

i have been infracted for political post...  so i m going to isolate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t know what throw the balls up is but they can play together.
		
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To choose playing partners...I’d guess...


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2020)

Seems the message about masks, washing hands and spacing between others is being cranked up. Had an empty office today so had the radio on. Being played in every ad break and coming home tonight and watching TV being shown a lot on TV. It still boils down to any individual following the advice, particularly the hand washing and face masks


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## Tashyboy (Oct 28, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t know what throw the balls up is but they can play together.
		
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four folk turn up for a knockabout. Either put four balls in a hat and pull out 2 balls. Whoever those balls are play against those left in the hat. Or lob four balls in the air. The nearest two balls that are together, whoever they are play together against the other two. 👍
As was the case for Tash on Tuesday when we played. However, one of the four guys has had Covid and came out of isolation at  the weekend. He was the lad who put me in isolation For 2 weeks. Anyway he phoned his pal and said there was a Space for him. Nice lad. However it now transpires he lives in a Tier three area and we live play in a 2. That is a big no no. That’s all irrelevant now coz we are all tier 3 but I was bogged off when I found out.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			These days I'm not hearing quite so much emphasis being put on transmission of the virus through touching surfaces - and whilst I still hear the 'wash hands' mantra, I'm not sure that folks are as focussed on that aspect of preventing transmission as we were at the outset.

Me and my wife are still very careful about what we touch when out; how we touch things when we must - and I'm forever using disinfectant when going into and coming out of shops and when we get home. And I avoid touching my face and facemask when out.  But I sense that we are in general not quite so diligent as we were...and I see a lot of handling of goods and food in the stores...

Also thinking I must take disinfectant with me when out so if I have to manually key my PIN to complete a transaction I can disinfect my hands afterwards. At the moment I am very conscious that I don't...but do take care afterwards not to touch face etc   Of course I should also disinfect my hands BEFORE entering my PIN...if I have not already done so when going into the store or whatever.
		
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When you say disinfectant do you mean hand sanitising gell?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			When you say disinfectant do you mean hand sanitising gell?
		
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Yes - sorry that’s indeed what I meant...careless...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2020)

And worryingly the suggestions of Sir P Vallance back 21st September about numbers of deaths that we could be seeing by mid November if viral transmission continued as it was and doubled daily have not been accurate - he seems to have underestimated how quickly we’d get to 200 deaths a day - so not by middle nov as he suggested was possible but already surpassed - a month early.  And not based upon 50,000 cases a day.

And of that I am worried. And noting that those in the media and through the media who so quickly and loudly slated him back then for exaggeration and fear-mongering on numbers of deaths have not been as forthcoming with their apologies and acceptance that his concerns were absolutely valid. Worrying.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			These days I'm not hearing quite so much emphasis being put on transmission of the virus through touching surfaces - and whilst I still hear the 'wash hands' mantra, I'm not sure that folks are as focussed on that aspect of preventing transmission as we were at the outset.

Me and my wife are still very careful about what we touch when out; how we touch things when we must - and I'm forever using disinfectant when going into and coming out of shops and when we get home. And I avoid touching my face and facemask when out.  But I sense that we are in general not quite so diligent as we were...and I see a lot of handling of goods and food in the stores...

Also thinking I must take disinfectant with me when out so if I have to manually key my PIN to complete a transaction I can disinfect my hands afterwards. At the moment I am very conscious that I don't...but do take care afterwards not to touch face etc   Of course I should also disinfect my hands BEFORE entering my PIN...if I have not already done so when going into the store or whatever.
		
Click to expand...

You clearly believe touching is an important part of transmission (of the virus), as I do, but how does this sit right with going out to have meals or drinks at pubs, clubhouses etc?
You have, I believe, described how you and your wife have done this, and I know many golfers at my club have drinks etc after a round.
I don't for the very reasons you have written about here.
I consider it a risk which isn't necessary. I'd love to do so, and I miss it very much but my wife and I are too old to risk it.
But it seems strange to have all the "don't touch " rules on the course and within the Pro shop yet it's OK to grasp a beer glass / cup etc which as been touched by others almost immediately before🤔

Most people are doing this judging by the numbers I see in pubs etc, so is the "touch"  risk overstated, and it really is about what you breath in?


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## SaintHacker (Oct 28, 2020)

France and Germany going back into full lockdowns


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2020)

Most of the autonomous regions of Spain have closed their borders. Many towns and cities similarly. Curfews in most of the regions, towns and cities. Times of curfews vary but most run from 10pm to 6am, some 11pm to 7am. Rules for bars and restaurants are showing more restrictions.

Fines are increasing, e.g. if you're supposed to quarantine but are caught out and about its now €3000. Businesses that flout the rules are being hammered - min €10k.

Police are out more in the last few days than they have been for a couple of months.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			France and Germany going back into full lockdowns 

Click to expand...

Interesting. Will no doubt add pressure for us to do so as well. I wonder if other previously badly hit areas like Spain and Italy follow suit and how long these lockdowns will last. France have said a month (so presumably gives shops and businesses three weeks to make some money before Christmas) but will they extend?


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And worryingly the suggestions of Sir P Vallance back 21st September about numbers of deaths that we could be seeing by mid November if viral transmission continued as it was and doubled daily have not been accurate - he seems to have underestimated how quickly we’d get to 200 deaths a day - so not by middle nov as he suggested was possible but already surpassed - a month early.  And not based upon 50,000 cases a day.

And of that I am worried. And noting that those in the media and through the media who so quickly and loudly slated him back then for exaggeration and fear-mongering on numbers of deaths have not been as forthcoming with their apologies and acceptance that his concerns were absolutely valid. Worrying.
		
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Agree, and linking back to an earlier post which may have been lost in the rounds
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...is-it-has-it-affected-you.104530/post-2249928


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## Hobbit (Oct 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Interesting. Will no doubt add pressure for us to do so as well. I wonder if other previously badly hit areas like Spain and Italy follow suit and how long these lockdowns will last. France have said a month (so presumably gives shops and businesses three weeks to make some money before Christmas) but will they extend?
		
Click to expand...

The State of Emergency notification that was raised yesterday runs till the 9th MAY. How each of the autonomous regions implement that is up to them. Unfortunately the buyers of our house don't live in our region - they're in Barcelona. Legally they are committed to buy/complete on the 4th Dec but quite when they can visit, who knows.


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The State of Emergency notification that was raised yesterday runs till the 9th MAY. How each of the autonomous regions implement that is up to them. Unfortunately the buyers of our house don't live in our region - they're in Barcelona. Legally they are committed to buy/complete on the 4th Dec but quite when they can visit, who knows.
		
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Till May, well that's telling. 😕


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 28, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t know what throw the balls up is but they can play together.
		
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OK 6 people meet with 2 tee times, 3 each tee slot. They throw 6 balls in the air to decide what the 2 teams are. Similar to a roll up.

From the 6 3 are in a tier 2 area and 3 in. A tier 1 area. Is this allowed that 6 people meet from 2 tee times?


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## chellie (Oct 28, 2020)

https://www.englandgolf.org/coronavirus-faqs/


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2020)

Got a shocker today when my phone with nhs T&T suddenly showed an exposure notification. In the past 48 hrs I had left the house once to go to the bank in the town centre . I hardly spent more than a few mins speaking to a John. Kept my distance and also did not touch anything (other than myself). 

So sprang up from the sofa to see more details. Clicked on the notification and the bleeping thing disappeared. Searched every where in the phone under every single setting but could not find the message !!


So googled the message and it looks like it is a known issue where in the app says exposure notification is working! More details here 

https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01252/en-us

I had a raised heart rate for about an hour. You have been warned


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## Billysboots (Oct 28, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Got a shocker today when my phone with nhs T&T suddenly showed an exposure notification. In the past 48 hrs I had left the house once to go to the bank in the town centre . I hardly spent more than a few mins speaking to a John. Kept my distance and also did not touch anything (other than myself).

So sprang up from the sofa to see more details. Clicked on the notification and the bleeping thing disappeared. Searched every where in the phone under every single setting but could not find the message !!


So googled the message and it looks like it is a known issue where in the app says exposure notification is working! More details here

https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01252/en-us

I had a raised heart rate for about an hour. You have been warned
		
Click to expand...

I’ve had about half a dozen of these “ghost” notifications already. Becoming rather predictable.


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## Mudball (Oct 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve had about half a dozen of these “ghost” notifications already. Becoming rather predictable.
		
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My first time .. Halloween had come early.


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## huds1475 (Oct 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And worryingly the suggestions of Sir P Vallance back 21st September about numbers of deaths that we could be seeing by mid November if viral transmission continued as it was and doubled daily have not been accurate - he seems to have underestimated how quickly we’d get to 200 deaths a day - so not by middle nov as he suggested was possible but already surpassed - a month early.  And not based upon 50,000 cases a day.

And of that I am worried. And noting that those in the media and through the media who so quickly and loudly slated him back then for exaggeration and fear-mongering on numbers of deaths have not been as forthcoming with their apologies and acceptance that his concerns were absolutely valid. Worrying.
		
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So not project fear after all then?

Perhaps people will one day learn to trust expertise based on facts over Internet 'opinion' and attention seeking twitter clickbait.

Maybe there is hope?

Or I've taken the wrong medication 😮


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## huds1475 (Oct 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve had about half a dozen of these “ghost” notifications already. Becoming rather predictable.
		
Click to expand...

Read the app FAQ's chaps 👍


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 28, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			OK 6 people meet with 2 tee times, 3 each tee slot. They throw 6 balls in the air to decide what the 2 teams are. Similar to a roll up.

From the 6 3 are in a tier 2 area and 3 in. A tier 1 area. Is this allowed that 6 people meet from 2 tee times?
		
Click to expand...

Yeah they can they’re outside.


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## bluewolf (Oct 29, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			So not project fear after all then?

Perhaps people will one day learn to trust expertise based on facts over Internet 'opinion' and attention seeking twitter clickbait.

Maybe there is hope?

Or I've taken the wrong medication 😮
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe you’re posting on the wrong thread? 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

IainP said:



			Agree, and linking back to an earlier post which may have been lost in the rounds
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...is-it-has-it-affected-you.104530/post-2249928

Click to expand...

Indeed - just that sort of thing as reported in the DT.  I think a study today reports that their random testing suggests 100k new cases a day in UK at the moment - exceeding Vallance’s 50,000 a day by mid-nov - which would indicate the doubling period has shortened from when Vallance’s simple arithmetic gave 50k a day by mid nov.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/


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## Mudball (Oct 29, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			Read the app FAQ's chaps 👍
		
Click to expand...

Can’t remember the last time I read the faq or T&Cs of an app before installing


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## GB72 (Oct 29, 2020)

A bit of a trite issue give the circumstances everyone is in but has anyone seen any reports on how the new lockdown is going to be applied to French sport. Just wondering if the 6 nations match in Paris will still go ahead at the weekend.


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 29, 2020)

You want true Covid-19 stupidity?   The World Series Game 6 Tuesday night - one of the Los Angeles Dodgers players, Justin Turner, gets a positive test and they immediately pull him out of the game and isolate him in the clubhouse.  The Dodgers win and Turner decides, sod that, and comes out on the field and hugs and embraces his team-mates and has pictures with them and the trophy.  He was hugging a cancer survivor, guys who have pregnant wives and other team employees.   

Just proves when you have money and you are involved in sports, then rules don't apply to you.  Utter moron.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			You want true Covid-19 stupidity?   The World Series Game 6 Tuesday night - one of the Los Angeles Dodgers players, Justin Turner, gets a positive test and they immediately pull him out of the game and isolate him in the clubhouse.  The Dodgers win and Turner decides, sod that, and comes out on the field and hugs and embraces his team-mates and has pictures with them and the trophy.  He was hugging a cancer survivor, guys who have pregnant wives and other team employees.

*Just proves when you have money *and you are involved in sports, *then rules don't apply to you*.  Utter moron.
		
Click to expand...

Similarly - Report in the Sunday Times that some city workers and company bosses _(coming into the UK)_ could be exempt from a quarantine period.  Denied.  We are all in it together or one rule for 'us'...

I find that sort of thing frustrating, confusing and disappointing.  Quarantine either matters for us all or it doesn't.  Not even sure why the quarantine period can be reduced from the two weeks it currently is.  But that's another matter.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Similarly - Report in the Sunday Times that some city workers and company bosses _(coming into the UK)_ could be exempt from a quarantine period.  Denied.  We are all in it together or one rule for 'us'...

I find that sort of thing frustrating, confusing and disappointing.  Quarantine either matters for us all or it doesn't.  Not even sure why the quarantine period can be reduced from the two weeks it currently is.  But that's another matter.
		
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In a similar vein, apparently it has been decreed that "business lunches" are exempt from the Tier 2 and Rule of 6 restrictions. London restaurants are now taking bookings for up to 30 to meet indoors and get hammered over lunch.


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## road2ruin (Oct 29, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			France and Germany going back into full lockdowns 

Click to expand...

Worth noting that whilst the papers are all saying how France and Germany are going into lockdown the Germany version is not a lockdown at all. It is tightening of restrictions however it's probably lower than our Tier 2 so not the 'full lockdown' that is being reported.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 29, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			In a similar vein, apparently it has been decreed that "business lunches" are exempt from the Tier 2 and Rule of 6 restrictions. London restaurants are now taking bookings for up to 30 to meet indoors and get hammered over lunch.
		
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I understand that the Rule of 6 continues to apply.

The reference to the number 30 was in respect of the total capacity of a specific dining room.


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## ger147 (Oct 29, 2020)

My daughter has been feeling a bit ropey since yesterday, cough and a temperature. As she works in Retail she's away to get a test.

Fingers crossed it's just a normal head cold and the C19 test comes back negative.


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## fundy (Oct 29, 2020)

GB72 said:



			A bit of a trite issue give the circumstances everyone is in but has anyone seen any reports on how the new lockdown is going to be applied to French sport. Just wondering if the 6 nations match in Paris will still go ahead at the weekend.
		
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yes theyre still planning on playing


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## Slab (Oct 29, 2020)

In the news today that Taiwan have reached 200 days with no positive cases in the community (we’re behind them having just reached 186 days) 
There’s nothing to gloat about looking at the global numbers & in particular the numbers in the UK, but in hindsight I am thankful for the severe measures put in place in those early weeks 

Not sure it would work a second time round


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## rudebhoy (Oct 29, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I understand that the Rule of 6 continues to apply.

The reference to the number 30 was in respect of the total capacity of a specific dining room.
		
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don't think so - 

'Indoor working lunches of up to 30 people could be exempt from tier two restrictions, as potential loophole has emerged. People living in high risk and very high risk areas, such as London, Greater Manchester, York and Liverpool, are banned from mixing with other households in any indoor setting. The rule applies to pubs and restaurants, as well as homes. Groups of six from different households are still allowed to meet outdoors but gatherings of larger groups is illegal. However, Downing Street and local authorities last night suggested the rules can be bent if the meetings are for ‘work purposes’. Visit our live blog for the latest updates Coronavirus news live According to Government guidance, up to 30 workers from different households can meet in restaurants and pubs as long as they are Covid-secure.'

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/20/lock...ple-can-meet-in-the-pub-13452304/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

Could equally be posted under 'Things that gladden the heart'...

My lad called this morning clutching a straw that's been dangled in front of him this morning.  One of the artists he's worked with in the past is trying to put together a 'Covid-compliant' series of gigs in December - and the tour management company has asked my lad if he wants to be part of trying to sort it and make it happen.  Of course he does - but he is pragmatic and is keeping his expectations low.  In truth - I don't expect it to happen and neither really does he...but it's positive that artists are thinking about how they might put on live music whilst living with the virus... and of course it's positive that the tour management company has come to him...

So it was a nice (for a change) call to get and it made my Mrs smile - a little...

He still needs a job mind...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

ger147 said:



			My daughter has been feeling a bit ropey since yesterday, cough and a temperature. As she works in Retail she's away to get a test.

Fingers crossed it's just a normal head cold and the C19 test comes back negative.
		
Click to expand...

cripes sir!  Here's hoping for the best...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			don't think so -

'Indoor working lunches of up to 30 people could be exempt from tier two restrictions, as potential loophole has emerged. People living in high risk and very high risk areas, such as London, Greater Manchester, York and Liverpool, are banned from mixing with other households in any indoor setting. The rule applies to pubs and restaurants, as well as homes. Groups of six from different households are still allowed to meet outdoors but gatherings of larger groups is illegal. However, Downing Street and local authorities last night suggested the rules can be bent if the meetings are for ‘work purposes’. Visit our live blog for the latest updates Coronavirus news live According to Government guidance, up to 30 workers from different households can meet in restaurants and pubs as long as they are Covid-secure.'

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/20/lock...ple-can-meet-in-the-pub-13452304/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

Click to expand...

I heard discussion on this that suggested any such pseudo business 'lunches' would be frowned upon by the authorities...so would a restaurant/venue risk it?


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## rudebhoy (Oct 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard discussion on this that suggested any such pseudo business 'lunches' would be frowned upon by the authorities...so would a restaurant/venue risk it?
		
Click to expand...

they have been sending out emails highlighting this and touting for business. They will be desperate for the income.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			they have been sending out emails highlighting this and touting for business. They will be desperate for the income.
		
Click to expand...

they might well be - as also will be those who have decided to not try and twist the rules...desperate times for many desperate folks.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 29, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Got a shocker today when my phone with nhs T&T suddenly showed an exposure notification. In the past 48 hrs I had left the house once to go to the bank in the town centre . I hardly spent more than a few mins speaking to a John. Kept my distance and also did not touch anything (other than myself).

So sprang up from the sofa to see more details. Clicked on the notification and the bleeping thing disappeared. Searched every where in the phone under every single setting but could not find the message !!


So googled the message and it looks like it is a known issue where in the app says exposure notification is working! More details here

https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01252/en-us

I had a raised heart rate for about an hour. You have been warned
		
Click to expand...

I've had the app installed from the day it was released. Took the mrs out for lunch today, did the check in thing, and as I opened the app the screen flashes up in red, 3 more days of isolation to go. WTF? Not once have I recieved a notification, text, email etc to say I have been in contact with someone infected, so I potentially have been merrily spreading this around for the last two weeks absolutley none the wiser. Whats more, checking back two weeks to when the alleged contact happened, I wasn't at work that day , I was at home nursing a nuclear hangover!
I realise no system is going to be perfect and there will always be anomalies but this thing is a total cluster...


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## GB72 (Oct 29, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I've had the app installed from the day it was released. Took the mrs out for lunch today, did the check in thing, and as I opened the app the screen flashes up in red, 3 more days of isolation to go. WTF? Not once have I recieved a notification, text, email etc to say I have been in contact with someone infected, so I potentially have been merrily spreading this around for the last two weeks absolutley none the wiser. Whats more, checking back two weeks to when the alleged contact happened, I wasn't at work that day , I was at home nursing a nuclear hangover!
I realise no system is going to be perfect and there will always be anomalies but this thing is a total cluster...
		
Click to expand...

Not sure if it has had an impact but it looks like they changed the algorithms today to make it more sensitive to contact. Not sure if that is picking up on prior contacts.


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## Crazyface (Oct 29, 2020)

fundy said:



			yes theyre still planning on playing
		
Click to expand...

Huh. was there ANY doubt? I'm done with watching all sport now. It's a disgrace that sport is allowed to continue with all this going on.


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## fundy (Oct 29, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Huh. was there ANY doubt? I'm done with watching all sport now. It's a disgrace that sport is allowed to continue with all this going on.
		
Click to expand...


best you dont watch the golf from the US this week, theyre allowing crowds in


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 29, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Huh. was there ANY doubt? I'm done with watching all sport now. It's a disgrace that sport is allowed to continue with all this going on.
		
Click to expand...

Why is it a disgrace? Providing all precautions are put in place then surely sport can continue ?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Huh. was there ANY doubt? I'm done with watching all sport now. It's a disgrace that sport is allowed to continue with all this going on.
		
Click to expand...

Some sport like international football I agree. Completely should be scraped until this is over but league football for example .. great to have it

Provides that tiny bit of normality for people

Helps mental health


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## williamalex1 (Oct 29, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Update , Boots in Scotland have suspended giving all flu jabs, due to unprecedented demand and stock availability. HID has to attend her designated clinic at 7 pm, must be in the same the health board area as our doctors surgery 

Click to expand...

Update - We got our Flu jabs locally today, after a friend told us over 65s can just walk in register and get jabbed, no queue and over and done in 10 minutes.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 29, 2020)

There are always people looking for ways to get round the rules but I actually quite like this one.......


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## robinthehood (Oct 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			There are always people looking for ways to get round the rules but I actually quite like this one.......

View attachment 33189

Click to expand...

I like it. Tbf me and the 3 blokes I work with are having a business meeting next week in a tier 2 restaurant..


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Similarly - Report in the Sunday Times that some city workers and company bosses _(coming into the UK)_ could be exempt from a quarantine period.  Denied.  We are all in it together or one rule for 'us'...

I find that sort of thing frustrating, confusing and disappointing.  Quarantine either matters for us all or it doesn't.  Not even sure why the quarantine period can be reduced from the two weeks it currently is.  But that's another matter.
		
Click to expand...

There’s a “could” in there


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Huh. was there ANY doubt? I'm done with watching all sport now. It's a disgrace that sport is allowed to continue with all this going on.
		
Click to expand...

I presume your now off to play golf


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			There’s a “could” in there
		
Click to expand...

there is...there is also a "denied"

And I am still  not sure what science is behind a potential shortening of the quarantine period from 14days to 10days...unless that is the science behind the direction that the wind is blowing...


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			there is...there is also a "denied"

And I am still  not sure what science is behind a potential shortening of the quarantine period from 14days to 10days...unless that is the science behind the direction that the wind is blowing...

Click to expand...

14-10 days seems to have dropped out of the limelight.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2020)

Flu jabs at work have been suspended due to a lack of vaccine. Looks like if and when it's reintroduced it will be for "critical areas" so I am assuming A&E, ICU, etc although to be confirmed


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## IainP (Oct 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			there is...there is also a "denied"

And I am still  not sure what science is behind a potential shortening of the quarantine period from 14days to 10days...unless that is the science behind the direction that the wind is blowing...

Click to expand...

Rightly or wrongly I think the UK may be following mainland Europe on this 
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-h...antine-as-cases-in-europe-spike-idUSKBN25T21I

https://euobserver.com/tickers/149472


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Could equally be posted under 'Things that gladden the heart'...

My lad called this morning clutching a straw that's been dangled in front of him this morning.  One of the artists he's worked with in the past is trying to put together a 'Covid-compliant' series of gigs in December - and the tour management company has asked my lad if he wants to be part of trying to sort it and make it happen.  Of course he does - but he is pragmatic and is keeping his expectations low.  In truth - I don't expect it to happen and neither really does he...but it's positive that artists are thinking about how they might put on live music whilst living with the virus... and of course it's positive that the tour management company has come to him...

So it was a nice (for a change) call to get and it made my Mrs smile - a little...

He still needs a job mind...
		
Click to expand...

While this seems positive news and I hope the artist and tour management could make it work, I know one artist that was due to to tour earlier in 2020, rescheduled to this time of year and has pulled the gigs again and has no plans to try and reschedule until late in 2022. There was a lot of demand from fans to play these covid restricted venues or even drive in open air venues but certainly in terms of indoor venues, there was no way to make it cost effective as a tour when you take into account the road crew, band, hotels, taxes etc. From what has been said it isn't an isolated case. If and when venues can open again there will then be the issue of every band and artist wanting to back on the world and so a massive demand on venues which means some will inevitably miss out.

I think your son would be wise to keep his expectations extremely low and continue the pursuit of regular employment bringing in a known wage. On the plus side it is good that the tour management have thought of him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			...I think your son would be wise to keep his expectations extremely low and continue the pursuit of regular employment bringing in a known wage. On the plus side it is good that the tour management have thought of him.
		
Click to expand...

Oh agreed 100% - and he gets that also.  As it happens this artist is a singer-songwriter who usually tours with just manager, merch seller and keyboard player.  So if the venue is sorted the tour party numbers are very small - maybe not bother with the merch guy - maybe just do solo.   My lad rolls up to the venues a few hours before the artist to sort stuff out.  Then after the show makes sure all is done and dusted for the tour management company he's working for.

The artist/tour footprint at a venue is actually very small - and probably easily managed.  The audience is another matter.  But that's for the venue to manage.

But tbh I just don't see the tiering restrictions that will be almost be inevitable in December allowing it to happen.  But upside - at least the tour company came straight to him.


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## User62651 (Oct 29, 2020)

Got allocated our new Scottish 1-5 covid rating today, we're in 2 here in Argyll which has exactly the same rules as we've been in the last few weeks so no change for us I dont think.

Had planned on a week in Skye early October (school hols) with inlaws but that got scuppered with the no mixing of households indoors rule that came in about a month ago, as it stands we could now do that next week as Highland is level 1 so two households can now mix indoors again there.

Didn't book anything thankfully.

Christmas will be tricky wrt company unless we get down to level 1. We can get my mum in a bubble extra, cant get the inlaws though.....devastated.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2020)

fundy said:



			best you dont watch the golf from the US this week, theyre allowing crowds in
		
Click to expand...

It's in a much more civilised venue than the US so the crowds will behave themselves.


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## Billysboots (Oct 29, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Huh. was there ANY doubt? I'm done with watching all sport now. It's a disgrace that sport is allowed to continue with all this going on.
		
Click to expand...

A slightly contrary view to many!

I for one was massively relieved when the Premier League and other sports restarted. Quite aside from giving us all some semblance of normality in difficult times, it allowed us hope that this pandemic won’t beat us.

I’m not sure we can underestimate the huge good simply having sport back on TV did for so many people.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			A slightly contrary view to many!

I for one was massively relieved when the Premier League and other sports restarted. Quite aside from giving us all some semblance of normality in difficult times, it allowed us hope that this pandemic won’t beat us.

*I’m not sure we can underestimate the huge good simply having sport back on TV did for so many people.*

Click to expand...

Well one of us can!


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## williamalex1 (Oct 29, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Got allocated our new Scottish 1-5 covid rating today, we're in 2 here in Argyll which has exactly the same rules as we've been in the last few weeks so no change for us I dont think.

Had planned on a week in Skye early October (school hols) with inlaws but that got scuppered with the no mixing of households indoors rule that came in about a month ago, as it stands we could now do that next week as Highland is level 1 so two households can now mix indoors again there.

Didn't book anything thankfully.

Christmas will be tricky wrt company unless we get down to level 1. We can get my mum in a bubble extra, cant get the inlaws though.....devastated.

Click to expand...

We're stuck in tier 3 [ with a bullet ]. We've book our favourite restaurant for my birthday lunch next week. Sadly they're not allowed to sell alcohol, should we be naughty and sneak in a bottle of our favourite red, and  just ask for 2 glasses of cola .
Only joking of course


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## patricks148 (Oct 30, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Got allocated our new Scottish 1-5 covid rating today, we're in 2 here in Argyll which has exactly the same rules as we've been in the last few weeks so no change for us I dont think.

Had planned on a week in Skye early October (school hols) with inlaws but that got scuppered with the no mixing of households indoors rule that came in about a month ago, as it stands we could now do that next week as Highland is level 1 so two households can now mix indoors again there.

Didn't book anything thankfully.

Christmas will be tricky wrt company unless we get down to level 1. We can get my mum in a bubble extra, cant get the inlaws though.....devastated.

Click to expand...

i thnk i saw it said that if you are in a ceratin teir you have to still act as if you are in it not travel to another area and do as they do


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			We're stuck in tier 3 [ with a bullet ]. We've book our favourite restaurant for my birthday lunch next week. Sadly they're not allowed to sell alcohol, should we be naughty and sneak in a bottle of our favourite red, and  just ask for 2 glasses of cola .
Only joking of course 

Click to expand...

We're out tonight for my b'day. What was a table of 12 is now 2 tables of 6. Thankfully, wine can still be had. Bit weird that you use alcohol hand gel to kill the bugs on the outside but can't drink alcohol to kill the bugs on the inside.


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## chrisd (Oct 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We're out tonight for my b'day. What was a table of 12 is now 2 tables of 6. Thankfully, wine can still be had. Bit weird that you use alcohol hand gel to kill the bugs on the outside but can't drink alcohol to kill the bugs on the inside.
		
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Whatever the rules Brian, have a great birthday 👍👍


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Whatever the rules Brian, have a great birthday 👍👍
		
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Just don't light all the candles on the cake... 

Happy birthday Brian.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 30, 2020)

Friends of ours are visiting the area for a couple of days. Ours is a tier 2 area as is theirs. We arranged to meet up for a bite to eat at somewhere with outdoor seating. There were 5 of us in total as they had their young son with them. The place was quiet but only had tables for 4. We asked if we could put 2 tables together, but apparently this is against the rules, so 2 of us sat at one table while the other 3 had to sit about 12 feet away. Seemed a bit silly and petty.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 30, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We're out tonight for my b'day. What was a table of 12 is now 2 tables of 6. Thankfully, wine can still be had. Bit weird that you use alcohol hand gel to kill the bugs on the outside but can't drink alcohol to kill the bugs on the inside.
		
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Happy birthday Brian fellow Scorpio, have a good one. 
Sadly we won't be getting our usual free bottles of wine for our birthdays from the restaurant, as both birthdays are in November while the alcohol ban is in place


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i thnk i saw it said that if you are in a ceratin teir you have to still act as if you are in it not travel to another area and do as they do
		
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if your tier allows you to travel your tier restrictions go with you if you go to a lower tier - but if you go to a higher tier you have to comply with restrictions in that tier not your ‘home’ tier.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

rudebhoy said:



			Friends of ours are visiting the area for a couple of days. Ours is a tier 2 area as is theirs. We arranged to meet up for a bite to eat at somewhere with outdoor seating. There were 5 of us in total as they had their young son with them. The place was quiet but only had tables for 4. We asked if we could put 2 tables together, but apparently this is against the rules, so 2 of us sat at one table while the other 3 had to sit about 12 feet away. Seemed a bit silly and petty.
		
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Would they not let you pull up another chair.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would they not let you pull up another chair.
		
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That is not allowed. You can not sit with people from another household up here.

When I play golf tomorrow there will be 3 in our group. Afterwards we will sit on 3 separate tables, spaced apart. If anyone tried to move a chair they will get barked at. If the club allows people to sit together when they should not they could get closed.


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## Mudball (Oct 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I've had the app installed from the day it was released. Took the mrs out for lunch today, did the check in thing, and as I opened the app the screen flashes up in red, 3 more days of isolation to go. WTF? Not once have I recieved a notification, text, email etc to say I have been in contact with someone infected, so I potentially have been merrily spreading this around for the last two weeks absolutley none the wiser. Whats more, checking back two weeks to when the alleged contact happened, I wasn't at work that day , I was at home nursing a nuclear hangover!
I realise no system is going to be perfect and there will always be anomalies but this thing is a total cluster...
		
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It is indeed a cluster F*.  As my friend in the know says,. dont dare call it the NHS T&T.. the NHS has nothing to do with the App.  All external but giving NHS a bad name


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## Fish (Oct 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Just don't light all the candles on the cake...  .
		
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It’ll take a big puff through a mask to blow them all out, I’m sure Bri fits the bill 😜

Have a good ‘un pal 🍾


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2020)

Soo disappointing hearing folks interviewed deliberately feigning ignorance over some of the rules - never mind the a-hole behaviour by many in Nottingham last night - and others still complaining ‘if I can do this why can’t I do that’...

Is there nobody out there able to explain simply and clearly to us the additive nature of risk across different community scenarios.  That two covid risk scenarios look identical - and may indeed be identical risk-wise, we can’t do everything if the cumulative risk exceeds the level in the community that is deemed manageable. 

The experts have to choose between all the scenarios which ones the community can participate in and which ones the community can’t.  Because it’s all about cumulative risk in the community rather the the specific risk faced by any individual.  But that does not seem to be getting explained - it certainly doesn’t seem to be understood by many,


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

My daughter has tested positive today, her symptoms are loss of taste and smell. 
Thankfully she's ok but now we have to isolate for 14 days. 

Having to cancel/reschedule work is a pain in the ass.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 30, 2020)

Hope everything works out Stu


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Hope everything works out Stu
		
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Cheers pal.

Couldn't happen at a worse time mate. Busiest period of the year and i'm forced to take 2 weeks off without pay. Ball ache


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## chrisd (Oct 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Hope everything works out Stu
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely share this Stu, best wishes to you and your family!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Soo disappointing hearing folks interviewed deliberately feigning ignorance over some of the rules - never mind the a-hole behaviour by many in Nottingham last night - and others still complaining ‘if I can do this why can’t I do that’...

Is there nobody out there able to explain simply and clearly to us the additive nature of risk across different community scenarios.  That two covid risk scenarios look identical - and may indeed be identical risk-wise, we can’t do everything if the cumulative risk exceeds the level in the community that is deemed manageable.

The experts have to choose between all the scenarios which ones the community can participate in and which ones the community can’t.  Because it’s all about cumulative risk in the community rather the the specific risk faced by any individual.  But that does not seem to be getting explained - it certainly doesn’t seem to be understood by many,
		
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There was a Woman on the News complaining that she had her hair done but couldn't understand why she couldn't get her nails done as well, She said it suggesting the rule is stupid, I would hazard a guess that it's due to hairdressers standing behind you and Nail doers sitting face to face. The government. can't really put out all this detail  or people will really get confused but I expect the trade have been told the whys and why nots and could tell the customers.  If you can't work out why then why not just be content that it's to protect your health.


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## Fish (Oct 30, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			My daughter has tested positive today, her symptoms are loss of taste and smell.
Thankfully she's ok but now we have to isolate for 14 days.

Having to cancel/reschedule work is a pain in the ass.
		
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My niece is a teacher and has tested positive, a child at the school where she teaches was positive so widespread tests were carried out, quite a few teachers then were found to be positive, although none of them displayed any symptoms!

It has now transpired that my nieces  son, aged 2 has tested positive, again no symptoms but is being closely monitored. 

It makes you wonder how many positive people are out & about spreading without knowing as they have no symptoms. 

Are you getting tested Stu, but then do you need to as you’re self isolating anyway now, so do you need to know?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Cheers pal.

Couldn't happen at a worse time mate. Busiest period of the year and i'm forced to take 2 weeks off without pay. Ball ache
		
Click to expand...

Where do you think she caught it?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Hope everything works out Stu
		
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chrisd said:



			Absolutely share this Stu, best wishes to you and your family!
		
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What they said Stu, all the best mate.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			My niece is a teacher and has tested positive, a child at the school where she teaches was positive so widespread tests were carried out, quite a few teachers then were found to be positive, although none of them displayed any symptoms!

It has now transpired that my nieces  son, aged 2 has tested positive, again no symptoms but is being closely monitored.

*It makes you wonder how many positive people are out & about spreading without knowing as they have no symptoms.*

Are you getting tested Stu, but then do you need to as you’re self isolating anyway now, so do you need to know?
		
Click to expand...

My money would be on an awful lot, as there is a belief that this has been about since October last year.


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			My niece is a teacher and has tested positive, a child at the school where she teaches was positive so widespread tests were carried out, quite a few teachers then were found to be positive, although none of them displayed any symptoms!

It has now transpired that my nieces  son, aged 2 has tested positive, again no symptoms but is being closely monitored.

It makes you wonder how many positive people are out & about spreading without knowing as they have no symptoms.

*Are you getting tested Stu, but then do you need to as you’re self isolating anyway now, so do you need to know?*

Click to expand...

Im not 100% certain but I've had a test today.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Let's face the truth, this virus spread is not going to reduce unless more young people start acting responsibly and that's not happening.


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			What they said Stu, all the best mate. 

Click to expand...

Cheers Gents


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Where do you think she caught it?
		
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I can't be certain but I'd guess at school.


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## Fish (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Let's face the truth, this virus spread is not going to reduce unless more young people start acting responsibly and that's not happening.
		
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Our biggest figures in the city are in the Warwick University campus area of Cannon Park, speaks volumes.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There was a Woman on the News complaining that she had her hair done but couldn't understand why she couldn't get her nails done as well, She said it suggesting the rule is stupid, I would hazard a guess that *it's due to hairdressers standing behind you and Nail doers sitting face to face. *The government. can't really put out all this detail  or people will really get confused but I expect the trade have been told the whys and why nots and could tell the customers.  If you can't work out why then why not just be content that it's to protect your health.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I appreciate the point you are making, I've been served a few times recently by someone standing behind a screen, so if the woman was happy to sit the other side of a screen facing the nail technician I can see her point.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Let's face the truth, this virus spread is not going to reduce unless more young people start acting responsibly and that's not happening.
		
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Just young people ? 

How about “everyone” acts responsibly as opposed to pointing fingers as a specific demographic


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just young people ?

How about “everyone” acts responsibly as opposed to pointing fingers as a specific demographic
		
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Indeed Phil, everybody needs to act responsibly, but looking at the pictures from Nottingham, I'm not seeing many middle aged or old people...


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Cheers pal.

Couldn't happen at a worse time mate. Busiest period of the year and i'm forced to take 2 weeks off without pay. Ball ache
		
Click to expand...


All the best Stu, as others have said, hope you and the family are OK

Assuming youre self employed then you can claim the first 3 mths of the SEISS extension which should more than cover 2 weeks wages?


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just young people ?

How about “everyone” acts responsibly as opposed to pointing fingers as a specific demographic
		
Click to expand...

Suggest you look at the coverage from Nottingham last night and you'll see its by and large teens and twenty somethings acting totally irresponsibly and in disregard for the rules and the police trying to keep some degree of order and break things up. It's not the 30 somethings or the middle or older generations gathering in large groups regularly. It's university students and youngsters as per last night


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed Phil, everybody needs to act responsibly, but looking at the pictures from Nottingham, I'm not seeing many middle aged or old people...
		
Click to expand...

We had the same a few weeks ago on the eve of Tier 3 lockdown. Heavily populated student areas - Liverpool/Manchester/Nottingham - having increased numbers, its not coincidence is it. 

For as many students acting irresponsibly there's just as many older people and  probably more of the likes as this daft old one https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nsioner-bbc-anti-lockdown-viral-b1221765.html


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed Phil, everybody needs to act responsibly, but looking at the pictures from Nottingham, I'm not seeing many middle aged or old people...
		
Click to expand...

it’s happened every time a tier 3 local and it’s not good to see but there are plenty of people of all ages ignoring any regulations etc


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			All the best Stu, as others have said, hope you and the family are OK

Assuming youre self employed then you can claim the first 3 mths of the SEISS extension which should more than cover 2 weeks wages?
		
Click to expand...

Cheers Steve. She's ok no other symptoms than loss of smell and taste.

I wasn't sure when this was available, it'll certainly help. Is there any date for it?


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Suggest you look at the coverage from Nottingham last night and you'll see its by and large teens and twenty somethings acting totally irresponsibly and in disregard for the rules and the police trying to keep some degree of order and break things up. It's not the 30 somethings or the middle or older generations gathering in large groups regularly. It's university students and youngsters as per last night
		
Click to expand...

So 1 news report is completely representative of the countries population? Not down here its not, go down to the seafront, shops, cafes, pubs etc, theres no discernible difference between age groups, if anything a higher representation of the older groups.

Yes the universities is causing an increase in cases, but they are far from the only group thats for sure


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Cheers Steve. She's ok no other symptoms than loss of smell and taste.

I wasn't sure when this was available, it'll certainly help. Is there any date for it?
		
Click to expand...

14th December it should be available, 2 lots of 3 mths starting 1st Nov/1st Feb, claim upto 40% of prev earning upto £3,750 in each claim


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Indeed Phil, everybody needs to act responsibly, but looking at the pictures from Nottingham, I'm not seeing many middle aged or old people...
		
Click to expand...

You are seeing students because that is the picture the papers and TV want to show you. They could equally hang around somewhere else and take pictures of other age groups failing to behave properly but that isn't the story right now.


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## Billysboots (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			My niece is a teacher and has tested positive, a child at the school where she teaches was positive so widespread tests were carried out, quite a few teachers then were found to be positive, although none of them displayed any symptoms!

It has now transpired that my nieces  son, aged 2 has tested positive, again no symptoms but is being closely monitored.

It makes you wonder how many positive people are out & about spreading without knowing as they have no symptoms.

Are you getting tested Stu, but then do you need to as you’re self isolating anyway now, so do you need to know?
		
Click to expand...

There is one racing certainty in all this. Far, far more people have had this virus than we will ever know.


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## pendodave (Oct 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			So 1 news report is completely representative of the countries population? Not down here its not, go down to the seafront, shops, cafes, pubs etc, theres no discernible difference between age groups, if anything a higher representation of the older groups.

Yes the universities is causing an increase in cases, but they are far from the only group thats for sure
		
Click to expand...

I have a child at university in a northern city.
He caught covid.
Not because he was an idiot, but because he is in a residential block with 100s of other people where 10 people live on each corridor and share toilet, bathroom and kitchen facilities and live in rooms barely bigger than broom cupboards. Most students are in this environment.
Rather like many of the inhabitants of inner city areas of low wage/high population multi-occuoancy housing.
I find it hard to express my utter contempt for the mindless nonsense on this thread. But some people need to take a long hard look at themselves.


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## Fish (Oct 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			So 1 news report is completely representative of the countries population? Not down here its not, go down to the seafront, shops, cafes, pubs etc, theres no discernible difference between age groups, if anything a higher representation of the older groups.

Yes the universities is causing an increase in cases, but they are far from the only group thats for sure
		
Click to expand...

As I’ve stated, our highest in the city is the University area/campus, and I see loads of them in and around the nearby shopping areas blatantly refusing to wear masks! 

They’re an ignorant generation.


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I have a child at university in a northern city.
He caught covid.
Not because he was an idiot, but because he is in a residential block with 100s of other people where 10 people live on each corridor and share toilet, bathroom and kitchen facilities and live in rooms barely bigger than broom cupboards. Most students are in this environment.
Rather like many of the inhabitants of inner city areas of low wage/high population multi-occuoancy housing.
I find it hard to express my utter contempt for the mindless nonsense on this thread. But some people need to take a long hard look at themselves.
		
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Hope your sons OK Dave.

I remember being 5 to a flat in 3 bedrooms, 1 kitchen 1 bathroom, 8 flats to a stairwell, 4 stairwells to a block in halls when I was at Loughborough. And we were in the better of the halls! Feel for the students currently, what should be the times of their lives, learning to be away from home for the first time, making new friends, new experiences etc has been totally changed, then they get to turn on the news and see that its all their fault that Covid wont go away

Of course there will be those who break some rules, pretty sure Id have been one of them if this had happened in 1991 sadly, but to blame all students as you say its more than unfair


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2020)

Another of my pupils in isolation as her sister has tested positive.
Dodging a bullet at the moment, 5 have had to isolate and each time it's over a week since I've seen them.
Not sure how much more ducking and diving I can do..


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			As I’ve stated, our highest in the city is the University area/campus, and I see loads of them in and around the nearby shopping areas blatantly refusing to wear masks!

They’re an ignorant generation.
		
Click to expand...

And yours isnt, do me a favour fish. All generations have plenty that fit into that category. How did you act when you were in your late teens, early twenties?


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Another of my pupils in isolation as her sister has tested positive.
Dodging a bullet at the moment, 5 have had to isolate and each time it's over a week since I've seen them.
Not sure how much more ducking and diving I can do..

Click to expand...


You bought that dual controls, convertible yet


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			You bought that dual controls, convertible yet 

Click to expand...

It might be an idea except you can't take your test in one...not enough visibility due to roll bars and things apparently...


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## Fish (Oct 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			And yours isnt, do me a favour fish. All generations have plenty that fit into that category.* How did you act when you were in your late teens, early twenties?*

Click to expand...

I was on tours with a rifle in my hand!


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			I was on tours with a rifle in my hand!
		
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And never did anything stupid, broke the rules etc? You were obviously better than I was at that age!!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			There is one racing certainty in all this. Far, far more people have had this virus than we will ever know.
		
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At one point 790 students at Northumbria university tested positive in one week. 700 showed no symptoms and were unaware. They only took tests because flatmates had tested positive and the university advised them to take them. 90% unaware 😳. If they were not in halls of residence then they would not have known.  Extrapolate that across other areas etc.

I remember a walled town in Italy that isolated perfectly during this early on, covid had hit it. It was treated as a case study and everyone was tested at one point. 40% were found to have had it and shown no symptoms.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with your point.


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## Stuart_C (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			I was on tours with a Trifle in my hand!
		
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😉


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You are seeing students because that is the picture the papers and TV want to show you. They could equally hang around somewhere else and take pictures of other age groups failing to behave properly but that isn't the story right now.
		
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Maybe so, but if they don't do it they can't be photographed doing it, can they?


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## Fish (Oct 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			And never did anything stupid, broke the rules etc? You were obviously better than I was at that age!!!
		
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I didn’t say that, but what I did do, and I did plenty, wouldn’t have put anyone else’s lives at risk, unless I got a bit jittery with the trigger😉


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## fundy (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			I didn’t say that, but what I did do, and I did plenty, wouldn’t have put anyone else’s lives at risk, unless I got a bit jittery with the trigger😉
		
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think ill take my chance with students in halls and covid then


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just young people ?

How about “everyone” acts responsibly as opposed to pointing fingers as a specific demographic
		
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'More young people' doesn't even mean all of them.

Just take a look at the infection age demographics and you will see the age group mainly catching and spreading the virus and the way it then creeps into older age groups.    Fingers need pointing where responsibility lies and your PC attitude doesn't change anything.


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## huds1475 (Oct 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Can’t remember the last time I read the faq or T&Cs of an app before installing
		
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Me neither.

But given its importance, and the nature of agile development, though the FAQ's were worth reading.

And they were.

Cover a lot of the questions that have been posted in here since release.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There was a Woman on the News complaining that she had her hair done but couldn't understand why she couldn't get her nails done as well, She said it suggesting the rule is stupid, I would hazard a guess that it's due to hairdressers standing behind you and Nail doers sitting face to face. The government. can't really put out all this detail  or people will really get confused but I expect the trade have been told the whys and why nots and could tell the customers.  If you can't work out why then why not just be content that it's to protect your health.
		
Click to expand...

yes - i watched that woman complain about her nails...and that's just what I mean by why X but not Y.  Maybe Ok doing one or the other - but not both.  And yes - why some seem incapable of just accepting rather that questioning what in many cases is often - indeed usually - simply a bit of an inconvenience.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe so, but if they don't do it they can't be photographed doing it, can they?
		
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True, but if plenty of others are also ignoring the guidelines and not being photographed is that really any different? Also take into account there are an estimated 44,500 students in Nottingham. How many are pictured being out and genuinely ignoring the rules? Not just out with their housemates, allowed, but breaking the rules?


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There was a Woman on the News complaining that she had her hair done but couldn't understand why she couldn't get her nails done as well, She said it suggesting the rule is stupid, I would hazard a guess that it's due to hairdressers standing behind you and Nail doers sitting face to face. The government. can't really put out all this detail  or people will really get confused but I expect the trade have been told the whys and why nots and could tell the customers.  If you can't work out why then why not just be content that it's to protect your health.
		
Click to expand...

But they’ll have masks on 🤣 why shouldn’t they be able to get their nails done? 
Wouldn’t surprise me if some went beyond and had Perspex screens with a hole for the hands. Hairdressers don’t just stand behind either. I wish they did, maybe our lass wouldn’t come back with a horrid fringe. 

Completely unfair to nail salon owners and workers in my opinion and not forgetting other affected trades. 
 Nonsensical. where’s the data supporting that decision?


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## anotherdouble (Oct 30, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			My daughter has tested positive today, her symptoms are loss of taste and smell.
Thankfully she's ok but now we have to isolate for 14 days.

Having to cancel/reschedule work is a pain in the ass.
		
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Look after the young one fam and the rest of the crowd, am sure you can take some sweet money off of some unsuspecting soul when you get back out🤣


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## anotherdouble (Oct 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Another of my pupils in isolation as her sister has tested positive.
Dodging a bullet at the moment, 5 have had to isolate and each time it's over a week since I've seen them.
*Not sure how much more ducking and diving I can do.*.

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with your knees, not alot😜


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			True, but if plenty of others are also ignoring the guidelines and not being photographed is that really any different? Also take into account there are an estimated 44,500 students in Nottingham. How many are pictured being out and genuinely ignoring the rules? Not just out with their housemates, allowed, but breaking the rules?
		
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It's not just Students, when I'm out and about I see young people all over the place ignoring social distancing and when I say young I'm talking about ages between around 15 to 30.  The stats speak for themselves.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			But they’ll have masks on 🤣 why shouldn’t they be able to get their nails done?
Wouldn’t surprise me if some went beyond and had Perspex screens with a hole for the hands. Hairdressers don’t just stand behind either. I wish they did, maybe our lass wouldn’t come back with a horrid fringe.

Completely unfair to nail salon owners and workers in my opinion and not forgetting other affected trades.
Nonsensical. where’s the data supporting that decision?
		
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So you think it's been done to be nasty to Nail technicians 🙄


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2020)

Fish said:



			As I’ve stated, our highest in the city is the University area/campus, and I see loads of them in and around the nearby shopping areas blatantly refusing to wear masks!

They’re an ignorant generation.
		
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Ignorant generation ? 

Every generation had their issues - and every generation could be accused of being ignorant when they were in the teens to 20’s


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not just Students, when I'm out and about I see young people all over the place ignoring social distancing and when I say young I'm talking about ages between around 15 to 30.  The stats speak for themselves.
		
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In the first wave it was older people. Were they at fault for that? Students have been shoved together, same as school kids, go back to Pendodave's post, #10,530. No surprise numbers exploded.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			'More young people' doesn't even mean all of them.

Just take a look at the infection age demographics and you will see the age group mainly catching and spreading the virus and the way it then creeps into older age groups.    Fingers need pointing where responsibility lies and your PC attitude doesn't change anything.
		
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Our friends parents live in Manchester , they ignored the Tier 3 rules and last weekend travelled to visit their daughter in MK - both in their 70’s

At the club we have had multiple issues with seniors ignoring mask rules , social distancing

There will be instances all over of older generation ignoring the rules

And it’s no surprise that the spreading of virus will be higher in young people when they are all back in schools , universities whilst all sticking to rules - what about the first wave when it was going through the older generation? Imagine if young people pointing the finger at your generation and blamed you 

It’s no surprise that older people point fingers of blame at the younger generation but its everyone’s responsibility and it’s people from all ages have caused issues.

Fingers don’t need pointing at all because all that does is cause resentment and anger.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			True, but if plenty of others are also ignoring the guidelines and not being photographed is that really any different? Also take into account there are an estimated 44,500 students in Nottingham. How many are pictured being out and genuinely ignoring the rules? Not just out with their housemates, allowed, but breaking the rules?
		
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It's not just Students, when I'm out and about I see young people all over the place ignoring social distancing and when I say young I'm talking about ages between around 15 to 30.
Of course there are people of all ages being irresponsible but it's undeniable the main group are younger people.


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## Ethan (Oct 30, 2020)

I don't think it is helpful to blame certain groups, that just allows others to be more casual about their own behaviour. Kids and students were pushed back as a matter of policy. It isn't young people i see with masks improperly fitted or not on at all when I am out.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Our friends parents live in Manchester , they ignored the Tier 3 rules and last weekend travelled to visit their daughter in MK - both in their 70’s

At the club we have had multiple issues with seniors ignoring mask rules , social distancing

There will be instances all over of older generation ignoring the rules

And it’s no surprise that the spreading of virus will be higher in young people when they are all back in schools , universities whilst all sticking to rules - what about the first wave when it was going through the older generation? Imagine if young people pointing the finger at your generation and blamed you

It’s no surprise that older people point fingers of blame at the younger generation but its everyone’s responsibility and it’s people from all ages have caused issues.

Fingers don’t need pointing at all because all that does is cause resentment and anger.
		
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Things won't change because of the kind of denial being shown in your post. Being protective of the cause may be comfortable but it's dangerous.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I don't think it is helpful to blame certain groups, that just allows others to be more casual about their own behaviour. Kids and students were pushed back as a matter of policy. It isn't young people i see with masks improperly fitted or not on at all when I am out.
		
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What do you think about the data in the heat charts like the one I just posted.
I see many young people without masks and all over each other.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Things won't change because of the kind of denial being shown in your post. Being protective of the cause may be comfortable but it's dangerous.
		
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The only person in denial is yourself and this constant need to point fingers and blame others for everything.

The cause is an illness, it doesn’t pick the age it infects , it’s doesnt decide to target certain demographics. Young people have been told to go back to school , universities , work , social events yet it’s their fault ?!


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## Ethan (Oct 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What do you think about the data in the heat charts like the one I just posted.
		
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The data is the data, the current regional prevalences are clearly highest in young people, but that doesn't mean they are as a sweeping generalisation, the problem. The Govt required schools to restart and colleges to return, and an upsurge of cases was inevitable. The schools in my neck of the woods are working very hard with bubbles and all kinds of changes (no football in the school yard etc) to keepthines under control.

If you want to look where serious problems arise, it is stuff like this: Idiots


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2020)

If Schools and Universities had stayed closed I wonder if the demographic of cases would still be in the same age ranges?

They said on the Local News here tonight that cases in the north east of England are still growing, but much more slowly than before and the region was also starting to see a fall in the number of 18-24 year olds catching the virus.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			If Schools and Universities had stayed closed I wonder if the demographic of cases would still be in the same age ranges?

They said on the Local News here tonight that cases in the north east of England are still growing, but much more slowly than before and the region was also starting to see a fall in the number of 18-24 year olds catching the virus.
		
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We follow the local university figures, we know a good few who are at Newcastle and Northumbria, and the numbers have dropped massively recently. From the highs at the beginning of term, who could see that coming 🙄, the graph is going down quite markedly. I'd love it if figures were released without student and school numbers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 30, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We follow the local university figures, we know a good few who are at Newcastle and Northumbria, and the numbers have dropped massively recently. From the highs at the beginning of term, who could see that coming 🙄, the graph is going down quite markedly. I'd love it if figures were released without student and school numbers.
		
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I wonder if a specific age range took advantage of the “Eat out to help out” scheme?
ONS today - “They believe the initiative, which gave diners up to 50 per cent off meals out, was to blame for as many as 17 per cent of new infection clusters between August and early September - one in every six.”


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 30, 2020)

Guys can we calm down please

Respect other people’s opinions please


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## Lilyhawk (Oct 30, 2020)

Just an update from Sweden. No one is wearing face masks, but they have today decided to cancel all sports for the kids for the next 3 weeks. Not due to new laws in place, but based on recommendations. Oh, and I didn’t hug my dad when I met him yesterday for the first time in a year.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 30, 2020)

Thread locked overnight


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 31, 2020)

Thread reopened
Post nicely please or it will be locked again


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## Fish (Oct 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I wonder if a specific age range took advantage of the “Eat out to help out” scheme?
ONS today - “They believe the initiative, which gave diners up to 50 per cent off meals out, was to blame for as many as 17 per cent of new infection clusters between August and early September - one in every six.”
		
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I don’t think so, golf clubs offered it, Beefeaters, Millar & Carter’s, along with fast food outlets, so the demographic of age groups was widespread. 

I used it a couple of times and the safety measures on table spacing and seating was excellent, along with all precautions with our server, so no, I don’t think so.


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2020)

Arranged a birthday meal in the local curry house for 12 people. Rules changed yesterday morning to max 6 per table. I rang them and agreed to tables of 6 with a gap. Got there last night and the restaurant decided to push the tables together.

Half an hour into the meal the police paid a visit. As it was the first night of the new rules we got a warning but the restaurant got a massive fine.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

Find myself a little torn on the cases. Is the expectation that in time we'll all catch it, if so then the cases will keep rising until reaches population size - or until a vaccine can intervene. I'm still trying to delay catching it for as long as possible though.

Here's the global graph for recorded 



Europe recorded just shy of 300K yesterday which was a typical global figure back in July.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			I don’t think so, golf clubs offered it, Beefeaters, Millar & Carter’s, along with fast food outlets, so the demographic of age groups was widespread.

I used it a couple of times and the safety measures on table spacing and seating was excellent, along with all precautions with our server, so no, I don’t think so.
		
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That’s my point, all age groups took advantage and it led to a spike, so anywhere people congregate a spike can occur, therefore putting thousands upon thousands of young people in Universities caused a spike and then to blame them is daft.

Maybe not encouraging or allowing people to gather would of been a better option.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Arranged a birthday meal in the local curry house for 12 people. Rules changed yesterday morning to max 6 per table. I rang them and agreed to tables of 6 with a gap. Got there last night and the restaurant decided to push the tables together.

Half an hour into the meal the police paid a visit. As it was the first night of the new rules we got a warning but the restaurant got a massive fine.
		
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Bloody hell mate, that would of put a damper on your birthday!

Glad you still got to celebrate though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			But they’ll have masks on 🤣 why shouldn’t they be able to get their nails done?
Wouldn’t surprise me if some went beyond and had Perspex screens with a hole for the hands. Hairdressers don’t just stand behind either. I wish they did, maybe our lass wouldn’t come back with a horrid fringe.

Completely unfair to nail salon owners and workers in my opinion and not forgetting other affected trades.
Nonsensical. where’s the data supporting that decision?
		
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The fact is that all scenarios involving mixing of people have a level of risk and a community can only safely manage a certain level of risk.  That will mean that we can’t do everything and that means some scenarios must be dropped. Choices have to be made.  Some will be difficult. Some will be easily understood. Some will seem illogical and inconsistent. It’s just a additive numbers exercise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2020)

So are we now looking at no golf for a month when there were no plans yesterday morning that would have meant that.  Brilliant. Well that knackers early round of winter comps (both only minor issue tbh). But much more importantly, also as a result me and my mrs now have to go to MiLs in north Derbyshire first thing tomorrow to make sure that she has all she needs for such a period. Mrs drives the 300+ miles up in the morning and I drive back in the afternoon as we can’t stay.  No doubt the supers will be rammed.

Great. And there were no plans. And they wonder why...🙁 Though i am not looking for any debate I wonder why it has come to this...it’s a rhetorical question to which I do not need an answer - just commenting on how I am this very day being affected by this pandemic, how we are reacting to it, and how it is being managed.


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## Ethan (Oct 31, 2020)

We have known for some time that this is a condition spread by close and prolonged contact in poorly ventilated indoor spaces. Mask wearing mitigates the risk to a limited but important extent.

There is really no logic behind the rule of 6 outdoors, or with our specific interest, for prohibiting golf, which is rather over ventilated for my liking at this time of year. Any activities which put more people indoors close together is a risk, and that includes schools, universities, workplaces, public transport, house parties, bars and restaurants etc etc.

The red line appears to be schools and universities which are the barometer for closing everything. It is clear that a new lockdown is coming with the hope of clearing things for Christmas. Unfortunately Christmas will therefore inevitably cause another wave, so lockdown 3 in January, presumably. I hope, but do not expect, some common sense to be included in the next lockdown.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 31, 2020)

I wonder if the universities who insisted on students moving to the campus back in September despite zero prospect of any face to face teaching will let them go home now? Or are they to be cooped up in their rooms with a visit to the supermarket their only escape?


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## ger147 (Oct 31, 2020)

ger147 said:



			My daughter has been feeling a bit ropey since yesterday, cough and a temperature. As she works in Retail she's away to get a test.

Fingers crossed it's just a normal head cold and the C19 test comes back negative.
		
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Daughter's result came back negative, so business as usual continues for now, well the new usual I suppose.


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## SatchFan (Oct 31, 2020)

Well, I bought my Christmas pudding this morning so along with some spare turkey in the freezer and an emergency bag of Aunt Bessie's roasties I reckon we could easily improvise a Christmas dinner. Bring on the lockdown.


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## Fish (Oct 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s my point, all age groups took advantage and it led to a spike, so anywhere people congregate a spike can occur, therefore putting thousands upon thousands of young people in Universities caused a spike and then to blame them is daft.

Maybe not encouraging or allowing people to gather would of been a better option.
		
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I still don’t agree, I think more tests were done and as a result more positives, ie a spike came to the fore, but it was always out there!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			I still don’t agree, I think more tests were done and as a result more positives, ie a spike came to the fore, but it was always out there!
		
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Of course it was always out there, no one can dispute that, it’s how we control the spread that matters and putting groups of people of ANY age in close proximity is not the best solution to stop the spread.


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## Stuart_C (Oct 31, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread reopened
Post nicely please or it will be locked again
		
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How about punishing the culprits, surely its easier than locking threads? 

Anyway, my test came back positive this morning. No symptoms, its a good job I'm lean machine I suppose😉

My lads was negative, we're just waiting on my tarts result now.


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## Stuart_C (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			I still don’t agree, I think more tests were done and as a result more positives, ie a spike came to the fore, but it was always out there!
		
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The spike hasn't came from just more testing.  The spike has come from an increase of  people mixing in schools/uni's/pubs/public transport etc and poor decision making from government.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			How about punishing the culprits, surely its easier than locking threads?

Anyway, my test came back positive this morning. No symptoms, its a good job I'm lean machine I suppose😉

My lads was negative, we're just waiting on my tarts result now.
		
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What happens next Stu? ie, hoping that you get no symptoms, will you isolate for 14 days and then go back to work? Or will you get retested?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2020)

It is so disheartening to hear that we are being told by some who must not be identified that we must listen carefully to the economic forecasts of economists - the economic experts - who are predicting the impact of a four week lockdown...remembering what we have been told in the past about the accuracy of economic forecasts.  No wonder some people have become confused or angry..myself included...

Anyway, expressing my dismay without finger pointing about where the country is today is the best I can do on here.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread reopened
Post nicely please or it will be locked again
		
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Has Covid replaced the politics thread. 🤔


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## fundy (Oct 31, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			How about punishing the culprits, surely its easier than locking threads?

Anyway, my test came back positive this morning. No symptoms, its a good job I'm lean machine I suppose😉

My lads was negative, we're just waiting on my tarts result now.
		
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good news Stu


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## Stuart_C (Oct 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			What happens next Stu? ie, hoping that you get no symptoms, will you isolate for 14 days and then go back to work? Or will you get retested?
		
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Got to isolate for 10 days from either day of test or 1st day of symptoms whichever applies. I can go back to work on the 11th day providing I'm symptom free for 48hrs before.


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Has Covid replaced the politics thread. 🤔
		
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Seems like it. Some people can't accept the guidance and will try to push the boundaries until everyone suffers. (Bit like COVID guidance).


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			We have known for some time that this is a condition spread by close and prolonged contact in poorly ventilated indoor spaces. Mask wearing mitigates the risk to a limited but important extent.

There is really no logic behind the rule of 6 outdoors, or with our specific interest, for prohibiting golf, which is rather over ventilated for my liking at this time of year. Any activities which put more people indoors close together is a risk, and that includes schools, universities, workplaces, public transport, house parties, bars and restaurants etc etc.

The red line appears to be schools and universities which are the barometer for closing everything. It is clear that a new lockdown is coming with the hope of clearing things for Christmas. Unfortunately Christmas will therefore inevitably cause another wave, so lockdown 3 in January, presumably. I hope, but do not expect, some common sense to be included in the next lockdown.
		
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Ethan, as I understand it. The first lockdown in consideration of Protect the NHS,  drs and medical staff were dealing with this unknown virus the best they could. Probably and unfortunately a certain amount of trial and error Involved.
Now the second lockdown is nigh on upon us, what have the specialists, drs etc learned through experience from the first time round that will help them this time round. Is there any drugs that are now more in use Etc etc. 
Cheers me man.


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Got to isolate for 10 days from either day of test or 1st day of symptoms whichever applies. I can go back to work on the 11th day providing I'm symptom free for 48hrs before.
		
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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			How about punishing the culprits, surely its easier than locking threads?

Anyway, my test came back positive this morning. No symptoms, its a good job I'm lean machine I suppose😉

My lads was negative, we're just waiting on my tarts result now.
		
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Now “ Tart” is ok. But Gypsey tart, sweet lord.
Get well soon Stu. 😘


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## Stuart_C (Oct 31, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Now “ Tart” is ok. But Gypsey tart, sweet lord.
Get well soon Stu. 😘
		
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Cheers Tashy, I'm all good here. No symptoms  or anything like that thankfully


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Got to isolate for 10 days from either day of test or 1st day of symptoms whichever applies. I can go back to work on the 11th day providing I'm symptom free for 48hrs before.
	View attachment 33207

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Well wishes stu hope you don't get any further symtoms.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2020)

Come what may be it Teacher, nurse, Copper, class one lorry driver delivering your Xmas turkey ( and my two kids fall into the last 2 categories) And grandparent carers Me and Missis Tash. We all have a part to play whatever our careers.. A part that only 7 months ago was totally unrecognisable To where we are today. 
That said this Covid for me has shown the very best and very worst of society from Captain Tom to three bloody idiots socially distancing whilst stuck in a tumble drier. Google it.
No matter what ones career Choice May be, I would hope that there is a level of health and safety involved for every individual to ensure that all safety protocols are put in place to help protect ones self and therefore others.


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## Ethan (Oct 31, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan, as I understand it. The first lockdown in consideration of Protect the NHS,  drs and medical staff were dealing with this unknown virus the best they could. Probably and unfortunately a certain amount of trial and error Involved.
Now the second lockdown is nigh on upon us, what have the specialists, drs etc learned through experience from the first time round that will help them this time round. Is there any drugs that are now more in use Etc etc.
Cheers me man.
		
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Here is my review of the current state of play.

There has been a lengthy debate already about what the timing and nature of the first lockdown should or could have been, and the question of testing an contact tracing. Most public health doctors and virologists expected a second wave, because you can't suppress it hard enough for long enough to prevent one, but the severity of that second wave was always going to be affected by how well we had done with the first. Not well.

Now, what has changed?

Well, first, I think we know more about the disease. It was known from the outset that this wasn't a conventional pneumonia, at least not in the characteristic decline around day 7, it was an inflammatory condition similar to Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS), so a different approach to oxygenation and dealing with immune reactions are probably more effective. Normally in a pneumonia, you wouldn't damp immune response. That partly explains the lower death rate now. We now know that hydroxychloroquine is useless, remdesivir is of modest effect. Dexamethasone is useful for people who require oxygenation, but has a modest effect.

Second, the first wave cleared out a lot of older people, especially from care homes. The Dept of Health policy to push these people back untested to their care homes was disastrous, but as a result, the vulnerable population has changed to a less unfit one, so that probably also partly explains the lower death rate now.

Third, Covid appears to be changing a bit, to a form which is more transmissible but less severe. That may end up being no real gain, but it may explain why we are seeing more cases but proportionately fewer deaths. What we don't now if the sting in the tail of fewer deaths is more long term complications.

Fourth, long Covid. This refers to the persistence of symptoms in people who initially had mild-moderate disease. This is multi-organ and can include all sorts of stuff from fatigue (common) to psychotic symptoms (reflecting encephalitis), liver, kidney, heart and, in particular, thrombotic effects with micro clots in all sorts of organs with a range of clinical manifestations from minor to serious. I suspect this will be the long term legacy. Covid appears to affect many body systems and have multiple effects. I expect we will see an increase in autoimmune disease, ranging from Type I Diabetes to lupus, and possibly odd cancers and unusual genetic birth defects.

Fifth, vaccines. I am pretty upbeat on vaccines. There are multiple programmes in development, with a range of different mechanisms. None of them that I am aware of (apart from possibly the Russian one) use inactivated Covid. These development programmes have been the subject of feverish public interest with every detail picked over in the popular press. This has fuelled a certain amount of paranoia about the safety standards. Everyone is entitled to form their own view, but mine (based on my career in pharma) is that the regulators are able to balance the urgent need with the safety standards needed and I will therefore take the vaccine as soon as offered. The big challenge is administration. The job of making the vaccine is not a rate limiting step, but it takes a large effort to give to to millions of people. The recent Joint Committee for Vaccination and Immunisation recommendations suggest essentially that it will be given to over 50s, NHS and care home workers and specific highly vulnerable people first and then decisions made on others. Vaccines are likely to prevent disease in some people and reduce severity in others.

Sixth, lockdown. In my opinion (and other opinions are available), we needed a harder and earlier lockdown back in March, and we are now paying the price for that. The need to balance economy and health is, in my opinion, a false dichotomy. The two go hand in hand, and I think Get is slow coming round to this, so I expect a fairly hard lockdown this week in order to preserve some chance of a decent Christmas. But that Christmas will pose a further exposure risk, so I don't think we are done there, and will likely need to lockdown again in the new year. By then, we should be seeing vaccine coming through, so it may be the beginning of the end.

Seventh, herd immunity. This appears to have been the initial plan, and the Swedish plan too. This is highly problematic, for various ethical and practical reasons. Not the least of these is that it doesn't protect the shielded. Sporadic cases will still occur when shielded people encounter asymptomatic carriers, and there will still be quite a few of them, so vaccination is really the only solution for the shielded, and even that is not a guaranteed solution. We will, however, reach a position where the degree of natural infection, mostly in younger people, and the start of vaccination, add together to give an increasing proportion of the population that is able to function much closer to "normal", and eventually we will reach a tipping point where relative normality returns for most people.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The fact is that all scenarios involving mixing of people have a level of risk and a community can only safely manage a certain level of risk.  That will mean that we can’t do everything and that means some scenarios must be dropped. Choices have to be made.  Some will be difficult. Some will be easily understood. Some will seem illogical and inconsistent. It’s just a additive numbers exercise.
		
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I don’t do illogical and inconsistent, and when things are that way I cannot take that seriously especially when jobs and livelihoods are at stake and folk out of work,  despite adhering and adopting guidelines imposed on them previously out of their own pocket.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			I don’t think so, golf clubs offered it, Beefeaters, Millar & Carter’s, along with fast food outlets, so the demographic of age groups was widespread.

I used it a couple of times and the safety measures on table spacing and seating was excellent, along with all precautions with our server, so no, I don’t think so.
		
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There was a post some while ago on here pointing to a science report about "aerosol " effect as opposed to "droplets" effect.
I can't find it , but I did make a note of what it said, and below is a relevant part of it.
-----
_
Viruses in droplets (larger than 100 μm) typically fall to the ground in seconds within 2 m of the source and can be sprayed like tiny cannonballs onto nearby individuals. Because of their limited travel range, physical distancing reduces exposure to these droplets. Viruses in aerosols (smaller than 100 μm) can remain suspended in air for many seconds to hours, like smoke, and be inhaled. They are highly concentrated near an infected person, so they can infect people most easily in close proximity. But aerosols containing infectious virus (2) can also travel more than 2 m and accumulate in poorly ventilated indoor air, leading to superspreading events _
---
The conditions in first lockdown did not allow aerosol spread, but soon as they were relaxed to allow indoor mixing, pubs etc, and now that the weather has pushed all this indoors, then it is apparent to me that aerosol spreading is more prevalent.
What surprises me is that it isn't highlighted and warned against.
Or is it an inconvenient truth not to be emphasised ?


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## Billysboots (Oct 31, 2020)

This being a golf forum first and foremost, what are everyone’s views regarding courses shutting in the event of a second lockdown?

Given what we know now about the virus, I see no reason whatsoever why we cannot go back to what we saw in May. Close clubhouses and allow us to continue playing golf.

All the evidence points towards negligible transmission outdoors, and certainly not on a golf course if common sense is applied.

But common sense seems so out dated in 2020 🙄


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## robinthehood (Oct 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			This being a golf forum first and foremost, what are everyone’s views regarding courses shutting in the event of a second lockdown?

Given what we know now about the virus, I see no reason whatsoever why we cannot go back to what we saw in May. Close clubhouses and allow us to continue playing golf.

All the evidence points towards negligible transmission outdoors, and certainly not on a golf course if common sense is applied.

But common sense seems so out dated in 2020 🙄
		
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Trouble is, people are stupid and I see lots of handshaking etc.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Trouble is, people are stupid and I see lots of handshaking etc.
		
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This. Unfortunately the original exit plan relied on the public showing a tiny bit of common sense and thought for others. Big mistake


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## Billysboots (Oct 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Trouble is, people are stupid and I see lots of handshaking etc.
		
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As I say, common sense is so last year......


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Here is my review of the current state of play.

There has been a lengthy debate already about what the timing and nature of the first lockdown should or could have been, and the question of testing an contact tracing. Most public health doctors and virologists expected a second wave, because you can't suppress it hard enough for long enough to prevent one, but the severity of that second wave was always going to be affected by how well we had done with the first. Not well.

Now, what has changed?

Well, first, I think we know more about the disease. It was known from the outset that this wasn't a conventional pneumonia, at least not in the characteristic decline around day 7, it was an inflammatory condition similar to Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS), so a different approach to oxygenation and dealing with immune reactions are probably more effective. Normally in a pneumonia, you wouldn't damp immune response. That partly explains the lower death rate now. We now know that hydroxychloroquine is useless, remdesivir is of modest effect. Dexamethasone is useful for people who require oxygenation, but has a modest effect.

Second, the first wave cleared out a lot of older people, especially from care homes. The Dept of Health policy to push these people back untested to their care homes was disastrous, but as a result, the vulnerable population has changed to a less unfit one, so that probably also partly explains the lower death rate now.

Third, Covid appears to be changing a bit, to a form which is more transmissible but less severe. That may end up being no real gain, but it may explain why we are seeing more cases but proportionately fewer deaths. What we don't now if the sting in the tail of fewer deaths is more long term complications.

Fourth, long Covid. This refers to the persistence of symptoms in people who initially had mild-moderate disease. This is multi-organ and can include all sorts of stuff from fatigue (common) to psychotic symptoms (reflecting encephalitis), liver, kidney, heart and, in particular, thrombotic effects with micro clots in all sorts of organs with a range of clinical manifestations from minor to serious. I suspect this will be the long term legacy. Covid appears to affect many body systems and have multiple effects. I expect we will see an increase in autoimmune disease, ranging from Type I Diabetes to lupus, and possibly odd cancers and unusual genetic birth defects.

Fifth, vaccines. I am pretty upbeat on vaccines. There are multiple programmes in development, with a range of different mechanisms. None of them that I am aware of (apart from possibly the Russian one) use inactivated Covid. These development programmes have been the subject of feverish public interest with every detail picked over in the popular press. This has fuelled a certain amount of paranoia about the safety standards. Everyone is entitled to form their own view, but mine (based on my career in pharma) is that the regulators are able to balance the urgent need with the safety standards needed and I will therefore take the vaccine as soon as offered. The big challenge is administration. The job of making the vaccine is not a rate limiting step, but it takes a large effort to give to to millions of people. The recent Joint Committee for Vaccination and Immunisation recommendations suggest essentially that it will be given to over 50s, NHS and care home workers and specific highly vulnerable people first and then decisions made on others. Vaccines are likely to prevent disease in some people and reduce severity in others.

Sixth, lockdown. In my opinion (and other opinions are available), we needed a harder and earlier lockdown back in March, and we are now paying the price for that. The need to balance economy and health is, in my opinion, a false dichotomy. The two go hand in hand, and I think Get is slow coming round to this, so I expect a fairly hard lockdown this week in order to preserve some chance of a decent Christmas. But that Christmas will pose a further exposure risk, so I don't think we are done there, and will likely need to lockdown again in the new year. By then, we should be seeing vaccine coming through, so it may be the beginning of the end.

Seventh, herd immunity. This appears to have been the initial plan, and the Swedish plan too. This is highly problematic, for various ethical and practical reasons. Not the least of these is that it doesn't protect the shielded. Sporadic cases will still occur when shielded people encounter asymptomatic carriers, and there will still be quite a few of them, so vaccination is really the only solution for the shielded, and even that is not a guaranteed solution. We will, however, reach a position where the degree of natural infection, mostly in younger people, and the start of vaccination, add together to give an increasing proportion of the population that is able to function much closer to "normal", and eventually we will reach a tipping point where relative normality returns for most people.
		
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cheers me man, 👍 greatly appreciated


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			This being a golf forum first and foremost, what are everyone’s views regarding courses shutting in the event of a second lockdown?

Given what we know now about the virus, I see no reason whatsoever why we cannot go back to what we saw in May. Close clubhouses and allow us to continue playing golf.

All the evidence points towards negligible transmission outdoors, and certainly not on a golf course if common sense is applied.

But *common sense *seems so out dated in 2020 🙄
		
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There’s an old saying “ common sense ain’t that common”☹️

And as Sandra on Facebook would say, coz she has no common sense. ” so I cannot go to me mums but we can both join St Andrews, play golf and talk there”.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			This being a golf forum first and foremost, what are everyone’s views regarding courses shutting in the event of a second lockdown?

Given what we know now about the virus, I see no reason whatsoever why we cannot go back to what we saw in May. Close clubhouses and allow us to continue playing golf.

All the evidence points towards negligible transmission outdoors, and certainly not on a golf course if common sense is applied.

But common sense seems so out dated in 2020 🙄
		
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It will be seen as grossly unfair aswell 

I can't do this and this but it's ok for the posh boys to play golf 

Perception wise


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## Captainron (Oct 31, 2020)

I’m against any form of lockdown that could be put in place. Without a cure/vaccine there is no way to curb the spread of the virus that would take us out of lockdown. It won’t just vanish if we all stay indoors and hide away.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2020)

I will be surprised if it’s a full lockdown - not sure the country can afford it both financially and mentally. 

Can see schools , nurseries , shops staying open bit pubs , restaurants etc closing 

Sports still carrying on etc

The increases in case can clearly in many areas be seen tk start when pubs etc opened up and even more so when the help out to eat out started and then when schools etc opened up 

Cant see any reason why golf , tennis etc should have to stop


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## Papas1982 (Oct 31, 2020)

Imo if they announce a full lockdown the day furlough ends it'll be carnage for theme economy. 

I imagine the tories are terrified to do it as they've had their best poll results in the North recently, but imo local full lockdowns may be the answer. I can see real issues if places that atm are relatively low in infection rates have to lockdown. It'll course issues of they have spikes at people feel they've been left inside pointlessly.


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## GB72 (Oct 31, 2020)

I can see a full lockdown coming with a 1 month extension of furlough. Without that it would be chaos.

If the funds are not there for that, I can see no meeting between households, pubs and restaurants closing.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 31, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I can see a full lockdown coming with a 1 month extension of furlough. Without that it would be chaos.

If the funds are not there for that, I can see no meeting between households, pubs and restaurants closing.
		
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And then when there's another spike and another after that until we have a vaccine? 

The furlough scheme has to end imo. Harsh as it is. I just don't see how it can be funded with no end in sight.


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## GB72 (Oct 31, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			And then when there's another spike and another after that until we have a vaccine?

The furlough scheme has to end imo. Harsh as it is. I just don't see how it can be funded with no end in sight.
		
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Sometimes you just have to deal with the short term. Cannot see a decision that risks mass unemployment going in to Xmas.


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## Billysboots (Oct 31, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			And then when there's another spike and another after that until we have a vaccine?
		
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To be fair, back in March I think most people expected repeated short term lockdowns until this pandemic has passed.

I’m more surprised it’s taken this long before there’s real talk of another one.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 31, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Sometimes you just have to deal with the short term. Cannot see a decision that risks mass unemployment going in to Xmas.
		
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I think it was coming anyway tbh. Companies may hold on til January to get their 1k per person, but then they'll drop staff. 

I think a lot of companies got by with less staff during furlough and may well streamline. 

On a side note. I really don't see the infatuation of having to have it sorted by Xmas. I certainly can't recall too much sympathy being shown during Eid.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			To be fair, back in March I think most people expected repeated short term lockdowns until this pandemic has passed.

I’m more surprised it’s taken this long before there’s real talk of another one.
		
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I agree, I didn't expect a run this long. I thought the week prior to half term and then half term itself would be used. Then again, if a full lockdown means no travel then that would have meant millions more lost by that industry.


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## Griffsters (Oct 31, 2020)

I really struggle to see an ending to all this, COVID isn't going anywhere even with another lockdown.

Tremendous damage is done whichever path the government takes. On a personal level, if I can still get out and play some golf I'll be happy.


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## Ethan (Oct 31, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			cheers me man, 👍 greatly appreciated
		
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Forgot to add:

Immunity. Much coverage in the media about antibodies recently, after data came out showing that antibodies decline with time. This should have been no surprise at all, we have always known this. Your body can't store antibodies for everything you have ever encountered, because that is a lot. What happens is that after a period, the antibodies fall back to low (usually undetectable) levels, but your immune memory is ready to restart production, and can do so very quickly. in addition, T-cells become activated and can also deal with intruders, albeit not with the same specificity as antibodies. Vaccination should provide an effective period of antibodies, showing that your body has responded, but then when they fall off, immune memory will look after things. If Covid mutates, as is likely, then there may be degrees of crossover between immunity which gives you at least a head start in dealing with the new mutant, and may be enough for many people. This is kinda what happens with flu, and even though there is one or more new mutations each season, your immunity has sort of got the measure of it and recognises it. Older people don't do this so well. It is not clear if the same will apply to Covid. I am pretty confident that we can gain initial control with vaccines and although Covid is here to stay, we will deal with it better (immunologically) with time.


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## Fish (Oct 31, 2020)

Whatever the decision, the government is damned if it does and dammed if it doesn’t, and the opposition offers no alternatives other than moaning about the sitting governments decisions, and if anything, they have pushed for stricter sanctions, whilst asking for exit policies without offering one themselves, how can you offer an exit strategy with no clear end in sight?

This is with us now, it’s a part of our lives, without a vaccine it’s here to stay, life as we knew it will never be the same, as you can’t restrict travel or movement of any kind, life has to carry on, the economy demands it, so we adjust as best we can to live with it. 

Shutting everything down then reopening only stutters it, or delays it taking hold again, as we’re seeing in Europe, who had much tougher and quicker lock downs than us!

So easy pointing fingers from the comfort of your chairs, it’s not something that has ever happened before or could be planned for, and scientific information will be being offered daily, or hourly, and then acted upon as best as the government can.


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## Ethan (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			Whatever the decision, the government is damned if it does and dammed if it doesn’t, and the opposition offers no alternatives other than moaning about the sitting governments decisions, and if anything, they have pushed for stricter sanctions, whilst asking for exit policies without offering one themselves, how can you offer an exit strategy with no clear end in sight?

This is with us now, it’s a part of our lives, without a vaccine it’s here to stay, life as we knew it will never be the same, as you can’t restrict travel or movement of any kind, life has to carry on, the economy demands it, so we adjust as best we can to live with it.

Shutting everything down then reopening only stutters it, or delays it taking hold again, as we’re seeing in Europe, who had much tougher and quicker lock downs than us!

So easy pointing fingers from the comfort of your chairs, it’s not something that has ever happened before or could be planned for, and scientific information will be being offered daily, or hourly, and then acted upon as best as the government can.
		
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So the Govt is blameless whatever happens?

The opposition has offered some alternatives, actually, principally scaling up NHS and PHE structures to perform test and trace rather than funding private companies and friends of the party. That would have made a big difference. With the pathetic T&T was have, we have lost control of the virus. 

You can restrict movement, it is being done and can be done a lot more. Making a choice between the health issues and the economy is a false one and they are inextricably linked. If we don't get control of the health issues, we won't get control of the economy either. 

Other European countries are seeing a second wave, but some, like Germany, are better situated to deal with it than we are. 

It is wrong to say this could not be planned for. The uK ran a pandemic planning exercise but is wiunwilling to publish the report because we know they didn't implement the recommendations. Germany did, though. The Govt uses science as cover rather than direction. SAGE recommended a circuit break in Sept. Govt didn't do it, under pressure from backbenchers. That might have reduced the scale or duration of the lockdown that is imminent.


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## chrisd (Oct 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			. Your body can't store antibodies for everything you have ever encountered, because that is a lot.
		
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Given how many grossly overweight people I see these days some have ample room!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

Why are people shocked we are looking at a 2nd lockdown, we were warned about a 2nd spike in the autumn last April, we were warned about coming out of lockdown to quick.

Better a 2nd lockdown and a further 12 months for the economy to recover than losing thousands of more lives that could be saved if we do nothing.


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## drdel (Oct 31, 2020)

À few good posts and now we're back to political bickering.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 31, 2020)

Guys , can we avoid political content , however general


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## road2ruin (Oct 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why are people shocked we are looking at a 2nd lockdown, we were warned about a 2nd spike in the autumn last April, we were warned about coming out of lockdown to quick.

Better a 2nd lockdown and a further 12 months for the economy to recover than losing thousands of more lives that could be saved if we do nothing.
		
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But what about the 3rd lockdown and then a possible 4th in spring? How many businesses will survive that? The chancellor will have to offer more financial support but a lot of us received nothing from him during the first lockdown and will probably get nothing in the next.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			But what about the 3rd lockdown and then a possible 4th in spring? How many businesses will survive that? The chancellor will have to offer more financial support but a lot of us received nothing from him during the first lockdown and will probably get nothing in the next.
		
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I haven’t seen anyone in Government or working with the Government mention or make statements about a 3rd or 4th lockdown as they did about the 2nd lockdown?

They are in positions of responsibility with, hopefully, all the latest information to hand, they have to make these hard calls and if a 3rd or 4th lockdown is muted then again, they must bare responsibility.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I haven’t seen anyone in Government or working with the Government mention or make statements about a 3rd or 4th lockdown as they did about the 2nd lockdown?

They are in positions of responsibility with, hopefully, all the latest information to hand, they have to make these hard calls and if a 3rd or 4th lockdown is muted then again, they must bare responsibility.
		
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Know you were likely meaning UK, but there has been some talk
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/second-fire-break-wales-likely-19162353


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2020)

The UK Government has this evening (31 October) announced a one-month lockdown of England, starting at midnight on Thursday 5 November and running until 2 December.

These new measures will see the closure of pubs, restaurants and non-essential retail.

People can continue to exercise for unlimited periods outdoors, either with people from their own households or on a one-to-one basis with one person from another household.

*England Golf is working with the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Golf to study the detail, and to establish the exact restrictions on golf clubs and their facilities as the information becomes available. *

*We will communicate definitive guidance once received from government.*

Please continue to consult our social media channels and the England Golf website for all updates via our dedicated coronavirus news pages. This includes our FAQs document which will be reviewed and refreshed at the earliest opportunity.

Our best wishes to you and your families. Please stay safe and well.

Jeremy Tomlinson, England Golf CEO


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## Beedee (Oct 31, 2020)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november

Section 4 - golf courses and driving ranges must close.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 31, 2020)

We had no ICU Covid patients as of yesterday so at the moment we are ahead of the curve, for now. Had a whatsapp to attend a 9.00am briefing on Monday to discuss our plans for the next month so assuming we are looking for the longer term picture and expected increases again. We started the last wave really slowly and it seemed to hit in one tsunami and we went from zero to 40 cases in a matter of days. Hopefully we'll have learned the lessons from last time. My biggest immediate fear is the number of staff we have either positive or self-isolating so lets see what Monday brings.

Some tough times ahead for everybody and I simply hope we all stay safe (and our loved ones)


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			But what about the 3rd lockdown and then a possible 4th in spring? How many businesses will survive that? The chancellor will have to offer more financial support but a lot of us received nothing from him during the first lockdown and will probably get nothing in the next.
		
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The Furlough scheme was probably the most generous in the World and was extended to the self employed.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 31, 2020)

Beedee said:



https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november

Section 4 - golf courses and driving ranges must close.
		
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Oh well, that's it for a month. Don't mind as it will help the situation.
Roll on the vaccine.


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## PNWokingham (Oct 31, 2020)

Next year there may be a cure or a help with medication. Maybe it will be good, maybe less so. The damage that this virus has done to the country is now, in my opinion, far outweighing trying to protect us against covid. The build up of deaths from undiagnised cancers and other diseases will only become aparant over the next two or three years. Many of the covid deaths would have happenened anyway. It is all getting far beyond the twilight zone. I think we need a much more counter-policy decision and look to Sweden and have the courage to put resources round the vulnerable and let the rest of society get on with life as near normal. £150-200bn or so cost so far and the legacy this does to the next generation is a price too high to pay.


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 31, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Next year there may be a cure or a help with medication. Maybe it will be good, maybe less so. The damage that this virus has done to the country is now, in my opinion, far outweighing trying to protect us against covid. The build up of deaths from undiagnised cancers and other diseases will only become aparant over the next two or three years. Many of the covid deaths would have happenened anyway. It is all getting far beyond the twilight zone. I think we need a much more counter-policy decision and look to Sweden and have the courage to put resources round the vulnerable and let the rest of society get on with life as near normal. £150-200bn or so cost so far and the legacy this does to the next generation is a price too high to pay.
		
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I think the World as a whole needs to stop trying to do things country by country, company by company and accept that now is the time the World as a whole worked together for the first time to try and beat this virus.
 Trying to be the gold medallists in the race to beat CC19 is just slowing us all up and prolonging the fight.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 31, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Oh well, that's it for a month. Don't mind as it will help the situation.
Roll on the vaccine.
		
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I'm less than convinced there will be a vaccine. There isn't one yet for any other strain of coronavirus.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

I have to be careful here and happy to send the link to anybody interested, but I believe it is in the Sunday Times tomorrow, this week the Chair of UK’s Vaccine Task Force gave 
“official sensitive” government documents to a $200-a-head event for elite US venture capitalists last week

Kate Bingham, showed guests a list of products which the government is set to invest in.

In her talk *she said she expects all over-50s to have vaccine available by Easter*

Now, I am not making a political statement here, but surely this information shouldn’t be getting shared with US Venture Capitalists, surely, We, the British Public, should be informed.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 31, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I’m relieved they’re finally grasping the nettle and doing something although I fear it’s still not enough.

300+ people a day are dying at the moment. I’m appalled at the callousness of people who want to turn a blind eye and let that number increase.
		
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Completely agree with you. There seem to be so many people on social media saying that restrictions/lockdown aren't needed as the fatality rate for the virus is "only" around 1%. That doesn't sound too bad until you realise that there are approx 70 million people in the UK. They seem to be happy with the fact that there would be around 700k deaths from the virus if it was left unchecked.

EDIT - maybe happy isn't the right word in the last sentence but following their logic an acceptance of 700k deaths.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 31, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Completely agree with you. There seem to be so many people on social media saying that restrictions/lockdown aren't needed as the fatality rate for the virus is "only" around 1%. That doesn't sound too bad until you realise that there are approx 70 million people in the UK. They seem to be happy with the fact that there would be around 700k deaths from the virus if it was left unchecked.

EDIT - maybe happy isn't the right word in the last sentence but following their logic an acceptance of 700k deaths.
		
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Sadly they seem to be putting money before life.


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## road2ruin (Nov 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The Furlough scheme was probably the most generous in the World and was extended to the self employed.
		
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I agree it was generous but only if you qualified for it, millions were completely left out and having to fend foe themselves through no fault of their own.


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## howbow88 (Nov 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sadly they seem to be putting money before life.
		
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In the society we live in though, money is life... If you lose your job and so don't have money, you won't have a roof over your head, food on the table, etc.

It does sound callous to talk in those terms I admit, but at what point does saving lives today, cost us many more in the long run? 

I don't have the answers, and I'm not sure anyone has. Rock and a hard place for everyone.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			In the society we live in though, money is life... If you lose your job and so don't have money, you won't have a roof over your head, food on the table, etc.

It does sound callous to talk in those terms I admit, but at what point does saving lives today, cost us many more in the long run?

I don't have the answers, and I'm not sure anyone has. Rock and a hard place for everyone.
		
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Not heard of the abused and out of dated benefit system? Sort of makes your first paragraph pointless.

I do however, agree there is a line and a balance point, but to me that is not with a virus we know very little about, not the diseases/illness’s we deal with on a daily basis, make this one a financial decision, which one next? Depression? Cancer? Heart disease etc


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## howbow88 (Nov 1, 2020)

Why the condescending first line? I'm well aware of the benefit system, which really doesn't help everyone, particularly the many thousand of homeless people in the UK. Do you think all of them live on the streets for fun?

Jeez, what is it with this forum - everything is black and white on any subject


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 1, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Why the condescending first line? I'm well aware of the benefit system, which really doesn't help everyone, particularly the many thousand of homeless people in the UK. Do you think all of them live on the streets for fun?

Jeez, what is it with this forum - everything is black and white on any subject 

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It’s not meant to be condescending and I apologise if you read it that way, but we are talking about life and death and read your post as you being black and white that everybody suffering your first paragraph is left for dead or dies due to what you described.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2020)

Me and my Mrs got a bit worried watching the briefing as it looking like Boris was going to be on SCD...in the end I hope that last night is as close as he gets...the thought of him doing the Charleston or a Cha-cha-cha...🤪🥰 Phew...


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 1, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			I'm less than convinced there will be a vaccine. There isn't one yet for any other strain of coronavirus.
		
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There hasn't been in the past such a dire situation in respect of the other Covids,so there wasn't the "push"
The vaccines are out there and most work to a large extent., it's the safety testing that is time consuming.
(That's why a lot of the vaccines have been mass produced already, so when the green light is given, they will roll out quickly.)
It may well be that the situation will get so serious that the vaccine will be offered before all usual safety issues have been satisfied.
I.e. If it stops Covid but had only 75% safety testing, they might offer it on that basis, leaving it to the individual to make an informed decision.
So, if like me , some in their late seventies get the offer , they may take it as long term side effects are not too important. 😉


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me and my Mrs got a bit worried watching the briefing as it looking like Boris was going to be on SCD...in the end I hope that last night is as close as he gets...the thought of him doing the Charleston or a Cha-cha-cha...🤪🥰 Phew...
		
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Eh!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Next year there may be a cure or a help with medication. Maybe it will be good, maybe less so. The damage that this virus has done to the country is now, in my opinion, far outweighing trying to protect us against covid. The build up of deaths from undiagnised cancers and other diseases will only become aparant over the next two or three years. Many of the covid deaths would have happenened anyway. It is all getting far beyond the twilight zone. I think we need a much more counter-policy decision and look to Sweden and have the courage to put resources round the vulnerable and let the rest of society get on with life as near normal. £150-200bn or so cost so far and the legacy this does to the next generation is a price too high to pay.
		
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Just let it rip.  Do you have any idea how many people would be seriously affected by that, Covid doesn't just kill or affect certain demographics it has serious long term and fatal effects on all age groups. If left to its own the consequences would dire.


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## Mudball (Nov 1, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Next year there may be a cure or a help with medication. Maybe it will be good, maybe less so. The damage that this virus has done to the country is now, in my opinion, far outweighing trying to protect us against covid. The build up of deaths from undiagnised cancers and other diseases will only become aparant over the next two or three years. Many of the covid deaths would have happenened anyway. It is all getting far beyond the twilight zone. I think we need a much more counter-policy decision and look to Sweden and have the courage to put resources round the vulnerable and let the rest of society get on with life as near normal. £150-200bn or so cost so far and the legacy this does to the next generation is a price too high to pay.
		
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i agree with you.. but let us push that logic further... lets shutter all hospitals..  At some point (untreated) Cancer, diabetics and other diseases will cost life, so why bother saving them.  Smoking, drinking and other life style choice diseases was the patient's fault anyways.    Imagine the impact of the economy as we will be able to save a few billions on the NHS every year.  Money that an be spent elsewhere.    Finally the forum has a bright idea..


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## Hobbit (Nov 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me and my Mrs got a bit worried watching the briefing as it looking like Boris was going to be on SCD...in the end I hope that last night is as close as he gets...the thought of him doing the Charleston or a Cha-cha-cha...🤪🥰 Phew...
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Eh!
		
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Its another of his thinly veiled political digs. If he thinks he gets away with it without intelligent people realising, he's a bigger idiot than he might imagine.


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## Hobbit (Nov 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Just let it rip.  Do you have any idea how many people would be seriously affected by that, Covid doesn't just kill or affect certain demographics it has serious long term and fatal effects on all age groups. If left to its own the consequences would dire.
		
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The son of a friend, 21 years old and very fit, got it in the first wave. He didn't know what it was other than it felt like a nasty cold. After a couple of months of struggling with a cough and feeling ropey he went to the docs, who sent him for an x-ray. Long story short, pockets of live infection in his lungs, whatever they are. 5 months on and he's still struggling to get out of the house.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The son of a friend, 21 years old and very fit, got it in the first wave. He didn't know what it was other than it felt like a nasty cold. After a couple of months of struggling with a cough and feeling ropey he went to the docs, who sent him for an x-ray. Long story short, pockets of live infection in his lungs, whatever they are. 5 months on and he's still struggling to get out of the house.
		
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Same with my 40 year old daughter, caught it in March and still gets exhausted after the slightest exertion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Its another of his thinly veiled political digs. If he thinks he gets away with it without intelligent people realising, he's a bigger idiot than he might imagine.
		
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No it’s not - it’s the thought of Boris on SCD...🤪. After all Ed Balls had a decent go previously and Jacqui Smith is making a right hash of it this time round...

You did notice last night that Boris was still speaking when the BeeB had to cut to SCD...close shave 😻


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## Hobbit (Nov 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No it’s not - it’s the thought of Boris on SCD...🤪. After all Ed Balls had a decent go previously and Jacqui Smith is making a right hash of it this time round...

You did notice last night that Boris was still speaking when the BeeB had to cut to SCD...close shave 😻
		
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Maybe you're right but isn't it a coincidence that so many of your (supposed) non-political posts are aimed at the govt's handling of the crisis and the main players involved.... You skirt round it so (too) often for it to be a coincidence.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No it’s not - it’s the thought of Boris on SCD...🤪. After all Ed Balls had a decent go previously and Jacqui Smith is making a right hash of it this time round...

You did notice last night that Boris was still speaking when the BeeB had to cut to SCD...close shave 😻
		
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At least you won't have to worry about Smith anymore. Or do you think it was a political vote?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			At least you won't have to worry about Smith anymore. Or do you think it was a political vote?
		
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no matter your political hue - she was a bit better at being Home Secretary than dancer - though she couldn’t actually be worse...


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## PNWokingham (Nov 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Just let it rip.  Do you have any idea how many people would be seriously affected by that, Covid doesn't just kill or affect certain demographics it has serious long term and fatal effects on all age groups. If left to its own the consequences would dire.
		
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...and a pointless lockdown. Then what. We open up again and it spikes again, repeat..... Lockdowns are futile. Sweden are the only country with the guts to see the reality. 

Put the efforts into shielding and helping those that need it. If this goes on for much longer there is a significant effect on all of us that will dwarf the effects of covid. We do not know anything about long-term effects of covid but we know plenty about the rest of the diseases and ailments that affect all of society including early diagniosis of cancers, heart diseases etc. 

When people can go and get their nails done, hair cut etc etc and they cannot have face-to-face appiontments with doctors something is badly wrong. It is tiume we learned to live with this before we wreck the economy and the amount of covid-caused non-covid deaths far outnumbers covid, if it has not already. Plus the 150bn or 200bn that it has already cost, with the future costs set to dwarf this. I am not belitleing that it is serious but we have no option other than to live with it - there is no guarantee that anything medical related will have a transformational impact in the next few months


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			...and a pointless lockdown. Then what. We open up again and it spikes again, repeat..... Lockdowns are futile. Sweden are the only country with the guts to see the reality.

Put the efforts into shielding and helping those that need it. If this goes on for much longer there is a significant effect on all of us that will dwarf the effects of covid. We do not know anything about long-term effects of covid but we know plenty about the rest of the diseases and ailments that affect all of society including early diagniosis of cancers, heart diseases etc.

When people can go and get their nails done, hair cut etc etc and they cannot have face-to-face appiontments with doctors something is badly wrong. It is tiume we learned to live with this before we wreck the economy and the amount of covid-caused non-covid deaths far outnumbers covid, if it has not already. Plus the 150bn or 200bn that it has already cost, with the future costs set to dwarf this. I am not belitleing that it is serious but we have no option other than to live with it - there is no guarantee that anything medical related will have a transformational impact in the next few months
		
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Sweden is not the beacon I think you believe it is, yes they may be above the UK in certain aspects, but it’s by no means a success.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sweden-coronavirus-response-experiment

“As of October 21, Sweden stood 15th on the grim global ranking list of Covid-19 deaths per capita, and fifth in Europe, below only Belgium, Italy, Spain, and UK.”

Maybe a quick straw poll on here to see if anyone would like to see us follows Sweden’s example of not admitting anyone over 80 with Covid-19  to an ICU?

Yes the damage will be hideous, yes it will take years to recover, but there will be a bigger cost if it overwhelms the NHS and costs even more lives from every type of illness not just Covid.


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## road2ruin (Nov 2, 2020)

As we head into Lockdown 2.0 is appears to be on the back of the 'science' telling us that we need this to ensure that we don't reach a level of cases/depths that have been put forward my SAGE. My issue with SAGE is how they are allowed to put forward these scenarios without also putting out the data that they are based on. I am not talking about us as members of a golf forum pouring over the facts and figures however why are other scientists who are equally qualified as those in SAGE not able to see what the numbers are based upon? Every single SAGE scenario is the worst case +1, the impact these lockdowns will have on the majority of the population is incalculable and yet we are expected to just accept it. 

I have no problem with the lockdown if the reason behind it is justified but what I do have an issue with is 'SAGE think we should do it' and no supporting evidence as to why. I am almost certain that come December 2nd the lockdown will be extended up until Christmas at the very earliest if not into the new year, the science will dictate that the supporting evidence requires it however will they finally publish any of the data, I suspect not. Surely the who point of science has always been that it is evidence based and it's not just the findings that are out in in the public domain but also the workings that are able to be scrutinised by others. It seems SAGE are able to say whatever they want and we have to accept it?


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			...and a pointless lockdown. Then what. We open up again and it spikes again, repeat..... Lockdowns are futile. Sweden are the only country with the guts to see the reality.

Put the efforts into shielding and helping those that need it. If this goes on for much longer there is a significant effect on all of us that will dwarf the effects of covid. We do not know anything about long-term effects of covid but we know plenty about the rest of the diseases and ailments that affect all of society including early diagniosis of cancers, heart diseases etc.

When people can go and get their nails done, hair cut etc etc and they cannot have face-to-face appiontments with doctors something is badly wrong. It is tiume we learned to live with this before we wreck the economy and the amount of covid-caused non-covid deaths far outnumbers covid, if it has not already. Plus the 150bn or 200bn that it has already cost, with the future costs set to dwarf this. I am not belitleing that it is serious but we have no option other than to live with it - there is no guarantee that anything medical related will have a transformational impact in the next few months
		
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In my opinion, you are right on one thing. This will very likely spike up again after lockdown, especially with a compressed period of Christmas shopping, parties and kids coming back from Uni. Lockdown III looks certain in January.

However, Sweden had 5-10x the mortality of its immediate neighbours. Its economy did not do any better than its neighbours. There is no evidence mental health is any better there than its neighbours.

It is an article of faith, resistant to any facts, for the Covid denier that Sweden did better. Even Anders Tegnell, the main driver of this policy has been much more measured recently about the idea compared to when it started. Funny enough, many of the same share another delusion that dare not speak its name in the forum any more.

Lockdowns work by containing the virus until it dies. It isn't rocket science. They don't work if people continually flout them. A well known moron is about to launch another ego stroking organisation to encourage this, so he will likely be responsible for more deaths. 

All this 'live with it' nonsense is rarely accompanied by any concrete idea of what that actually means. If it means letting it run through the population in a herd immunity plan, then that will cost tens or hundreds of thousands of lives. Also, the plan for dealing with shielded people is unclear. When do you release them back into the general population. As far as medical advances, most sensible people are now confident that vaccines will start to emerge. The timing remains uncertain, but could be early new Year. 

People who need face to face appointments with their doctor can get them. Many people think they need them when they don't. People who need their nails done can do them themselves if the price is other people being put on ventilators.


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## road2ruin (Nov 2, 2020)

Ethan, I agree with a lot of what you say and you are better placed than most of us in terms of knowledge etc however this just isn't true is it?



Ethan said:



			Lockdowns work by containing the virus until it dies. It isn't rocket science.
		
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The virus is not going to be killed by a lockdown unless it has buy in by 100% of the world's population. If there was a world wide lockdown for 4 weeks that every single person on the planet adhered to then I would imagine the virus will be killed off. However that's unlikely so any other type of lockdown is just supressing the virus but as soon as you open up and allow travel across regions and then international borders it will just reappear and flourish again.


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## robinthehood (Nov 2, 2020)

I'm already tired of peolple telling me what is and isnt essentail and we're not even in lockdown yet 😂


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Ethan, I agree with a lot of what you say and you are better placed than most of us in terms of knowledge etc however this just isn't true is it?



The virus is not going to be killed by a lockdown unless it has buy in by 100% of the world's population. If there was a world wide lockdown for 4 weeks that every single person on the planet adhered to then I would imagine the virus will be killed off. However that's unlikely so any other type of lockdown is just supressing the virus but as soon as you open up and allow travel across regions and then international borders it will just reappear and flourish again.
		
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It is perfectly true, and we have known about it since Roman times. Covid is not immortal. If you stop it being transmitted, where it regenerates, as it were, it dies out. There is no evidence it lies dormant. The lower you push it, the less it will kick up again afterwards, and over a few cycles, that can have a major effect. 100% buy in would be great, but there is a sliding scale and the better you do it, the easier things become. If you simply say it can't be done art 100%, so whats the point of bothering at all, then you are stuffed and the health and economic effects, which are inextricably linked, just stay bad for longer. 

New Zealand is probably the best example of how to do this. They put in place strict immigration and containment regulations early and have had a total of less than 2000 cases and 25 deaths in a population of 5 million. That is how you get back to normal fast, but acting decisively early. Scotland has a similar population and has had over 65,000 positive tests and almost 5000 deaths.


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

I fear we are or have already passed the point of collateral damage being worse and it isn't really being discussed in all of this.

I agree complete lockdowns work, either we should either eliminate and lock borders or we need to look at the whole picture what we are doing currently is madness.


Just think about some of these statistics, the collateral damage is massive and we need to start acting for the bigger picture :-

March to August ..3.3 million fewer GP referrals to consultants for Outpatient apts. 62,000 are estimated to be for urgent cancer concerns. 7.6% will die

504 children denied radiotherapy

603 children denied heart surgery

12,000 secondary cancer referrals lost

62,000 urgent cancer referrals lost

350,000 suspected cancers missed

107,000 breast surgeries delayed

27 million gp apts lost

Cardillac attendances at A&E a massive dip during last lock down

9% increase in domestic violence reported cases during lockdown. April to June 2020.

107,102 fewer Gynaecology consultation episodes completed during lockdown April to August 2020. Down 46.8%

25,000 less children received psychiatry this year than last.

131,000 clinical Oncology appointments lost to lockdowns so far.

94,000 lost Adult Mental illness appointments since April 2020.

31,441 deaths in England from other causes have disappeared since last year


Non direct deaths, more economic stuff

350,000 young peoples jobs lost 1.5 million jobs lost

Been proved many times low wealth/bad performing economy leads to more deaths and earlier deaths



If you are willing to look about, there is plenty more terrible data like the above, the fall out of this is enormous by taking the half hearted approach, either lock down properly or manage spread far better and direct to younger generations.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I fear we are or have already passed the point of collateral damage being worse and it isn't really being discussed in all of this.

I agree complete lockdowns work, either we should either eliminate and lock borders or we need to look at the whole picture what we are doing currently is madness.


Just think about some of these statistics, the collateral damage is massive and we need to start acting for the bigger picture :-

March to August ..3.3 million fewer GP referrals to consultants for Outpatient apts. 62,000 are estimated to be for urgent cancer concerns. 7.6% will die

504 children denied radiotherapy

603 children denied heart surgery

12,000 secondary cancer referrals lost

62,000 urgent cancer referrals lost

350,000 suspected cancers missed

107,000 breast surgeries delayed

27 million gp apts lost

Cardillac attendances at A&E a massive dip during last lock down

9% increase in domestic violence reported cases during lockdown. April to June 2020.

107,102 fewer Gynaecology consultation episodes completed during lockdown April to August 2020. Down 46.8%

25,000 less children received psychiatry this year than last.

131,000 clinical Oncology appointments lost to lockdowns so far.

94,000 lost Adult Mental illness appointments since April 2020.

31,441 deaths in England from other causes have disappeared since last year


Non direct deaths, more economic stuff

350,000 young peoples jobs lost 1.5 million jobs lost

Been proved many times low wealth/bad performing economy leads to more deaths and earlier deaths



If you are willing to look about, there is plenty more terrible data like the above, the fall out of this is enormous by taking the half hearted approach, either lock down properly or manage spread far better and direct to younger generations.
		
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Good post, and is exactly why the Government has been forced into a 2nd lockdown, because if we go the other way and let Covid-19 run free all those figures will drastically rise as the NHS and economy is pushed to collapse.

Or we cross our fingers, hope it takes none of our loved ones then state the Government got it wrong.

Personally I prefer the way the Government is trying.


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## rudebhoy (Nov 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Good post, and is exactly why the Government has been forced into a 2nd lockdown, because if we go the other way and let Covid-19 run free all those figures will drastically rise as the NHS and economy is pushed to collapse.

Or we cross our fingers, hope it takes none of our loved ones then state the Government got it wrong.

*Personally I prefer the way the Government is trying.*

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I agree we need to do something, and welcome the imminent lockdown. My issue with it is that it does not go far enough. The return of millions of kids to school and university is the root cause of the second wave. There are 3 million students in further education, forcing them to travel to new cities in September was utter madness, driven by financial concerns. The vast majority are not having any face to face lessons, they should be told to go home and stay home until next summer.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			As we head into Lockdown 2.0 is appears to be on the back of the 'science' telling us that we need this to ensure that we don't reach a level of cases/depths that have been put forward my SAGE. My issue with SAGE is how they are allowed to put forward these scenarios without also putting out the data that they are based on. I am not talking about us as members of a golf forum pouring over the facts and figures however why are other scientists who are equally qualified as those in SAGE not able to see what the numbers are based upon? Every single SAGE scenario is the worst case +1, the impact these lockdowns will have on the majority of the population is incalculable and yet we are expected to just accept it.

I have no problem with the lockdown if the reason behind it is justified but what I do have an issue with is 'SAGE think we should do it' *and no supporting evidence as to why. I* am almost certain that come December 2nd the lockdown will be extended up until Christmas at the very earliest if not into the new year, the science will dictate that the supporting evidence requires it however will they finally publish any of the data, I suspect not. Surely the who point of science has always been that it is evidence based and it's not just the findings that are out in in the public domain but also the workings that are able to be scrutinised by others. It seems SAGE are able to say whatever they want and we have to accept it?
		
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Do you not consider the graphs and explanations at the press briefings on TV as evidence enough. 
It is for the general public, the technical stuff is for those qualified to understand it.
To say there is no evidence shown to us is plain wrong.


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## road2ruin (Nov 2, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Do you not consider the graphs and explanations at the press briefings on TV as evidence enough.
It is for the general public, the technical stuff is for those qualified to understand it.
To say there is no evidence shown to us is plain wrong.
		
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The graphs etc are what they want to show us but there is nothing deeper to show where this evidence is from etc and what it is based on. I can draw a really pretty graph and how everyone here how the virus is now no existent within the community however would you not question where I had got that graph from and what is is based upon? As I said, I want the evidence and the reasoning behind it to be made public so those WHO ARE QUALIFIED might look and understand it. As things stand we just have to trust what we are being shown, why the reluctance to provide info on what it is based upon?


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## rudebhoy (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			The graphs etc are what they want to show us but there is nothing deeper to show where this evidence is from etc and what it is based on. I can draw a really pretty graph and how everyone here how the virus is now no existent within the community however would you not question where I had got that graph from and what is is based upon? As I said, I want the evidence and the reasoning behind it to be made public so those WHO ARE QUALIFIED might look and understand it. As things stand we just have to trust what we are being shown, why the reluctance to provide info on what it is based upon?
		
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The numbers drill down to local areas. 

Not sure what more evidence you are looking for - the names and addresses of everyone who has contracted the virus?


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## Mudball (Nov 2, 2020)

Mentally this is going to be more challenging..  So i just signed up for a 15 month distant learning course...  i think i need something to look forward and keep my head engaged during this mad period.  Also a good way to e-meet people outside my company.  hopefully at some point we will all meet each other.  

Also signed up for a diet+exercise program.. hopefully will help shed a few pounds and help keep me away from the sauce.

Roll on lockdown..


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			The graphs etc are what they want to show us but there is nothing deeper to show where this evidence is from etc and what it is based on. I can draw a really pretty graph and how everyone here how the virus is now no existent within the community however would you not question where I had got that graph from and what is is based upon? As I said, I want the evidence and the reasoning behind it to be made public so those WHO ARE QUALIFIED might look and understand it. As things stand we just have to trust what we are being shown, why the reluctance to provide info on what it is based upon?
		
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All the numbers are there if you want to dig them out.  It sounds like you have formed an opinion that is influenced by your personal circumstances and are using spurious arguments to support it, rather than looking at the data and facts then forming an opinion based on them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 2, 2020)

How has it affected me? Well the announcement on Saturday gave my wife a second diy wind and that meant I spent 3 hours yesterday dismantling an old fitted wardrobe in our spare room. One car full to the tip yesterday, second trip after work today.  A further bit of work required to cut two large bits of wood up that are too big to fit in the car or pick up on my own before they potentially close on Thursday. The evenings and weekend will then be spent steaming off wall paper followed by painting walls. Darn this virus


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## Slab (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			The graphs etc are what they want to show us but there is nothing deeper to show where this evidence is from etc and what it is based on. I can draw a really pretty graph and how everyone here how the virus is now no existent within the community however would you not question where I had got that graph from and what is is based upon? *As I said, I want the evidence and the reasoning behind it to be made public so those WHO ARE QUALIFIED might look and understand it. *As things stand we just have to trust what we are being shown, why the reluctance to provide info on what it is based upon?
		
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But those who understand it aren't the 'public' so the data doesn't have to be made public. Does anyone know for certain that the data _hasn't_ been made available/shared with those in the 'trade' ?


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Good post, and is exactly why the Government has been forced into a 2nd lockdown, because if we go the other way and let Covid-19 run free all those figures will drastically rise as the NHS and economy is pushed to collapse.

Or we cross our fingers, hope it takes none of our loved ones then state the Government got it wrong.

Personally I prefer the way the Government is trying.
		
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I suppose I was trying to make was that just repeating what we have already done, is destined to see more add to the same results.

So if we go lockdown and then allow people to meet up indoors again generally afterwards or for Christmas, no surprise the virus spread will pick up(this pick up, started in about June/July btw, if you look at graphs, same for most of Europe as well).

Just some of the collateral damage from the policies and peoples actions to date can be seen from my previous post, and the collateral damage is rapidly getting worse and will exceed the horrible 'let it just rip' option. 

As we don't seem to have the necessary balls as a nation or individually to take proper hard action, then I just wish for an effective and safe vaccine as quick as possible. Hopefully the results will be announced in the next month and we will have some half decent answers on the vaccine situation, but even with vaccines its not likely until say 2022-2023 that things maybe returning more to the old normal.

All very sad, loads of deaths and illness tbh


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			But those who understand it aren't the 'public' so the data doesn't have to be made public. Does anyone know for certain that the data _hasn't_ been made available/shared with those in the 'trade' ?
		
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You need all the public to buy into the policies, to help maximum complying.

Therefore most data should be made public, including the basis of each of the models etc. 

My personal opinion(and I suppose it would be, as I like to ask questions, used to be like it at school, though all studying and even still now) and if the basis of each model etc was made public, then it would certainly make me for one believe certain graphs more or less.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I suppose I was trying to make was that just repeating what we have already done, is destined to see more add to the same results.

So if we go lockdown and then allow people to meet up indoors again generally afterwards or for Christmas, no surprise the virus spread will pick up(this pick up, started in about June/July btw, if you look at graphs, same for most of Europe as well).

Just some of the collateral damage from the policies and peoples actions to date can be seen from my previous post, and the collateral damage is rapidly getting worse and *will exceed the horrible 'let it just rip' option.*

As we don't seem to have the necessary balls as a nation or individually to take proper hard action, then I just wish for an effective and safe vaccine as quick as possible. Hopefully the results will be announced in the next month and we will have some half decent answers on the vaccine situation, but even with vaccines its not likely until say 2022-2023 that things maybe returning more to the old normal.

All very sad, loads of deaths and illness tbh

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I agree with 99% of what you put, I’m not sure how you can state the bit in bold as the “let it rip” scenario is also the worst case scenario.

As for the vaccine, the Government Head of Vaccine’s stated last week to the US Venture Capitalists all over 50’s will have access to a Vaccine by easter. Surely this is a massive statement that should be highlighted.


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## Jimaroid (Nov 2, 2020)

Does anyone know if an antibody test kit is available privately? I don't qualify for the UK at-home antibody testing being done by the various UK governments.


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

Jimaroid said:



			Does anyone know if an antibody test kit is available privately? I don't qualify for the UK at-home antibody testing being done by the various UK governments.
		
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The only ones I could find was goto a private clinic(or like). The quick testing ones do not seem to be available for public purchase, when I looked about a month ago


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			All the numbers are there if you want to dig them out.  It sounds like you have formed an opinion that is influenced by your personal circumstances and are using spurious arguments to support it, rather than looking at the data and facts then forming an opinion based on them.
		
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The graphs also - usefully for me - showed the uncertainty associated with the 'consensus' likely trajectory (as was shown by the solid line and the shaded area of the same colour).  I am thinking that the lower and upper bounds of uncertainty will have been arrived at (at least partly) through different modelling scenarios investigated by the many different groups doing the modelling, where different assumptions were made.  Some assumptions resulted in a more 'optimistic' growth - some a more 'pessimistic' growth.

It was made clear that these graphs were not those of a single modelling group - but were an aggregation of modelling by many different groups. The key point for me was that the lower bound for each 'outcome' modelled was still on an exponential growth trajectory - albeit lagging the 'consensus' - all it was doing was lagging.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			You need all the public to buy into the policies, to help maximum complying.

Therefore most data should be made public, including the basis of each of the models etc.

My personal opinion(and I suppose it would be, as I like to ask questions, used to be like it at school, though all studying and even still now) and if the basis of each model etc was made public, then it would certainly make me for one believe certain graphs more or less.
		
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The vast majority of people either don't need that level of data and would probably not understand it anyhow. We know a Trident missile is capable of delivering nuclear payloads to precise targets or our mobile phones can send a message to someone in New Zealand in seconds but do we need the detailed information to believe it happens.   I guess it's down to whether we believe the scenario we are presented or whether we think there is some form of conspiracy working to somehow destroy the world economy and people's freedoms or not.


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## robinthehood (Nov 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Honest to goodness.  Just heard that the Sunday Times reported yesterday that the NHS App has had a sensitivity setting incorrectly set and that as a result thousands will have not been contacted by Track & Trace... been known for a month apparently. 

I also learnt, and simply point out for those who are not aware and ask for no discussion - that our vaccine task force is headed by a venture capitalist who has no experience in vaccines and is married to a conservative minister...I'm sorry but...oh yes - and that task force head disclosed officially sensitive documents to a

The graphs also - usefully for me - showed the uncertainty associated with the 'consensus' likely trajectory (as was shown by a shaded area).  I am thinking that the lower and upper bounds of uncertainty will have been arrived at (at least partly) through different modelling scenarios investigated by different groups ding the modelling, where different assumptions were made.  The key point for me was that the lower bound for each 'outcome' modelled was still on an exponential growth trajectory - albeit lagging the 'consensus'.
		
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I read that too , the distance sensitivity is to be changed.


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree with 99% of what you put, I’m not sure how you can state the bit in bold as the “let it rip” scenario is also the worst case scenario.

As for the vaccine, the Government Head of Vaccine’s stated last week to the US Venture Capitalists all over 50’s will have access to a Vaccine by easter. Surely this is a massive statement that should be highlighted.
		
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Sorry if I implied I think that is the worst case scenario, I just saw it as the most horrible.

There is quite a bit of different details being leaked about vaccines and so far all promising, in terms of timings etc. Really looking forward to the efficiency questions(severness of disease and/or how many get protected from various age ranges, fingers crossed and many reasons to believe it is going to much more effective than say the flu vaccine, probably unlikely to be the magic 95% vaccine first off, but some in my family would take any vaccine even if only 50% as an extra card/protection)


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Professor from Oxford University just been on BBC news stating that the figures are being over exaggerated in Europe, that’s ok then, all’s goods. Just the sort of message the media should be passing on, no wonder people are ignoring the advise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I read that too , the distance sensitivity is to be changed.
		
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Oops - I didn't mean to post about the App and head of vaccine task force on this thread.


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The vast majority of people either don't need that level of data and would probably not understand it anyhow. We know a Trident missile is capable of delivering nuclear payloads to precise targets or our mobile phones can send a message to someone in New Zealand in seconds but do we need the detailed information to believe it happens.   I guess it's down to whether we believe the scenario we are presented or whether we think there is some form of conspiracy working to somehow destroy the world economy and people's freedoms or not.
		
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You seem to love conspiracy theories or believing people believe in them, but do not mis read my questioning or wanting openness to be that. It is certainly not that. And trying to shut down people with that outlook, does not help. Not sure if you think that?

You may wish to just believe in X, but I like to question and learn. Always have, always will, its in my nature. Off to do some work.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sweden is not the beacon I think you believe it is, yes they may be above the UK in certain aspects, but it’s by no means a success.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sweden-coronavirus-response-experiment

“As of October 21, Sweden stood 15th on the grim global ranking list of Covid-19 deaths per capita, and fifth in Europe, below only Belgium, Italy, Spain, and UK.”

Maybe a quick straw poll on here to see if anyone would like to see us follows Sweden’s example of not admitting anyone over 80 with Covid-19  to an ICU?

Yes the damage will be hideous, yes it will take years to recover, but there will be a bigger cost if it overwhelms the NHS and costs even more lives from every type of illness not just Covid.
		
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I couldn’t afford the beer.


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## Slab (Nov 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			You need all the public to buy into the policies, to help maximum complying.

*Therefore most data should be made public, including the basis of each of the models etc.*

My personal opinion(and I suppose it would be, as I like to ask questions, used to be like it at school, though all studying and even still now) and if the basis of each model etc was made public, then it would certainly make me for one believe certain graphs more or less.
		
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Maybe this is just semantics. road2ruin appeared to be suggesting the data be made available so that a wider pot of experts could give additional opinions that could be made public, I'm saying the the data itself doesn't need to be made public for that to happen

I'd actually go so far as to offer an opinion that the 'public' are the very last people the data should be released to, its way way too dangerous to let Joe & Janet Public loose with data like that


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## pendodave (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Professor from Oxford University just been on BBC news stating that the figures are being over exaggerated in Europe, that’s ok then, all’s goods. Just the sort of message the media should be passing on, no wonder people are ignoring the advise.
		
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I'm curious why you think that suppressing information is to be encouraged. I would suggest that more openness and discussion about the data on which current policies are based would be a good thing. 
This is not so much the thin and of the wedge as the fat end!
There are plenty of examples in many different fields of calamitous decisions being taken or pursued because relevant information was not made available because it suited someone sonewhere...


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## road2ruin (Nov 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe this is just semantics. road2ruin appeared to be suggesting the data be made available so that a wider pot of experts could give additional opinions that could be made public, I'm saying the the data itself doesn't need to be made public for that to happen

I'd actually go so far as to offer an opinion that the 'public' are the very last people the data should be released to, its way way too dangerous to let Joe & Janet Public loose with data like that
		
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What I am sceptical about is the worst case scenarios that SAGE keep putting out seem to be extraordinarily pessimistic, their worse case scenario gets worse and worse. I appreciate things are coming into winter and the cases were always going to rise but I would like others to see the data on what SAGE are basing their decisions on. So what's the new information? Why have the forecasts become so much worse? That sort of thing.


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## road2ruin (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			What I am sceptical about is the worst case scenarios that SAGE keep putting out seem to be extraordinarily pessimistic, their worse case scenario gets worse and worse. I appreciate things are coming into winter and the cases were always going to rise but I would like others to see the data on what SAGE are basing their decisions on. So what's the new information? Why have the forecasts become so much worse? That sort of thing.
		
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This article for example...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-have-no-10s-covid-forecasts-changed-so-much


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Professor from Oxford University just been on BBC news stating that the figures are being over exaggerated in Europe, that’s ok then, all’s goods. Just the sort of message the media should be passing on, no wonder people are ignoring the advise.
		
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And to complicate things further we also hear that 'you know who' is back on the scene and strongly punting 'protect vulnerable and let it rip'.  I fear that that is not going to help levels of compliance...


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

Just sitting, waiting for the well olied machine that is the DVSA, a machine that runs slower than a sundial, to make a decision as to whether I have to go to work or not....
I'd already cancelled today to rest my knee but tomorrow and onwards lessons are on hold until......God knows when.
Its going to be an enormous PITA if tests and lessons get suspended but it is what it is...I just wish they could move a bit quicker.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			What I am sceptical about is the worst case scenarios that SAGE keep putting out seem to be extraordinarily pessimistic, their worse case scenario gets worse and worse. I appreciate things are coming into winter and the cases were always going to rise but I would like others to see the data on what SAGE are basing their decisions on. So what's the new information? Why have the forecasts become so much worse? That sort of thing.
		
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You'll see from the graphs that the lower bound of uncertainty around the consensus 'most likely' is also on what looks to be an exponential growth trajectory.  And the lowest bound is likely to be the 'best case' scenario.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

pendodave said:



			I'm curious why you think that suppressing information is to be encouraged. I would suggest that more openness and discussion about the data on which current policies are based would be a good thing.
This is not so much the thin and of the wedge as the fat end!
There are plenty of examples in many different fields of calamitous decisions being taken or pursued because relevant information was not made available because it suited someone sonewhere...
		
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Is it suppressing information, don’t know if you saw it but it sounded more like a COVID denier. I supposed that those that want to can use whatever bit of “facts” they wish to enable them to follow the selective rules they want to. Many on here think the shut down of golf is wrong so let’s ignore the advice and just go out and play.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And to complicate things further we also hear that 'you know who' is back on the scene and strongly punting 'protect vulnerable and let it rip'.  I fear that that is not going to help levels of compliance...

Click to expand...

Who do you mean, not heard anyone punting for anything. Any chance on a link or do I need fact checker.


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## Slab (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			What I am sceptical about is the worst case scenarios that SAGE keep putting out seem to be extraordinarily pessimistic, their worse case scenario gets worse and worse. I appreciate things are coming into winter and the cases were always going to rise but I would like others to see the data on what SAGE are basing their decisions on. So what's the new information? Why have the forecasts become so much worse? That sort of thing.
		
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I get that but I still think the public are not equipped to read data in order to provide alternate projections. The appointed experts kinda have to go with worst case to a large extent (imagine if they went middle of the road and things were a fair bit worse!)


lets remember your average forummer (who I’d willingly describe as having an average IQ) cant even choose a shirt, hat or ball without seeking multiple opinions on here.
They have dozens of websites of data, including technical data, to direct them in their choice/course of action on which shoe to buy and we end up asking some bloke who typically spends half his day arguing about last night’s football… no for me the public (& I include the media in this) should not be given the data. 

In this respect ‘the public’ = thick as mince


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## robinthehood (Nov 2, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just sitting, waiting for the well olied machine that is the DVSA, a machine that runs slower than a sundial, to make a decision as to whether I have to go to work or not....
I'd already cancelled today to rest my knee but tomorrow and onwards lessons are on hold until......God knows when.
Its going to be an enormous PITA if tests and lessons get suspended but it is what it is...I just wish they could move a bit quicker.
		
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They are slow like L drivers 😉


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			They are slow like L drivers 😉
		
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Believe me..some of the hardest work I do is trying to slow some of these kids down.....
Some are quite capable of making 30mph feel like 90.


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## robinthehood (Nov 2, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Believe me..some of the hardest work I do is trying to slow some of these kids down.....
Some are quite capable of making 30mph feel like 90.
		
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I do feel happier that my son's car has a telematics box keeping on the speed limits in his first year of driving.


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I fear we are or have already passed the point of collateral damage being worse and it isn't really being discussed in all of this.

I agree complete lockdowns work, either we should either eliminate and lock borders or we need to look at the whole picture what we are doing currently is madness.


Just think about some of these statistics, the collateral damage is massive and we need to start acting for the bigger picture :-

March to August ..3.3 million fewer GP referrals to consultants for Outpatient apts. 62,000 are estimated to be for urgent cancer concerns. 7.6% will die

504 children denied radiotherapy

603 children denied heart surgery

12,000 secondary cancer referrals lost

62,000 urgent cancer referrals lost

350,000 suspected cancers missed

107,000 breast surgeries delayed

27 million gp apts lost

Cardillac attendances at A&E a massive dip during last lock down

9% increase in domestic violence reported cases during lockdown. April to June 2020.

107,102 fewer Gynaecology consultation episodes completed during lockdown April to August 2020. Down 46.8%

25,000 less children received psychiatry this year than last.

131,000 clinical Oncology appointments lost to lockdowns so far.

94,000 lost Adult Mental illness appointments since April 2020.

31,441 deaths in England from other causes have disappeared since last year


Non direct deaths, more economic stuff

350,000 young peoples jobs lost 1.5 million jobs lost

Been proved many times low wealth/bad performing economy leads to more deaths and earlier deaths



If you are willing to look about, there is plenty more terrible data like the above, the fall out of this is enormous by taking the half hearted approach, either lock down properly or manage spread far better and direct to younger generations.
		
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What are your sources for those, and what is the clinical meaning of emotive terms like "denied"?


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Professor from Oxford University just been on BBC news stating that the figures are being over exaggerated in Europe, that’s ok then, all’s goods. Just the sort of message the media should be passing on, no wonder people are ignoring the advise.
		
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Heneghan or Gupta?


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe this is just semantics. road2ruin appeared to be suggesting the data be made available so that a wider pot of experts could give additional opinions that could be made public, I'm saying the the data itself doesn't need to be made public for that to happen

I'd actually go so far as to offer an opinion that the 'public' are the very last people the data should be released to, its way way too dangerous to let Joe & Janet Public loose with data like that
		
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Id be happy with that, just some proper independent reviewing and summarising, as you say the real detailed stuff is in the main over the top. 

Here is someone I read, seems to think about things fairly calmly etc and made a post earlier about model predictions that had only be made about 2 week ago:-


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1323214427076857858


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## Slab (Nov 2, 2020)

^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately I have an (unfair and illogical) low opinion of anyone who chooses to communicate important information via twitter. Just can’t take it seriously, might as well release a tiktok video


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Heneghan or Gupta?
		
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Not Gupta, isn’t he Exeter? Missed the name unfortunately.


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately I have an (unfair and illogical) low opinion of anyone who chooses to communicate important information via twitter. Just can’t take it seriously, might as well release a tiktok video    

Click to expand...

What other means could he use, facebook but get your point Still doesn't make the data wrong.

Whats interesting if you read all the posts to date, is how the posts have gone, he is also being slightly naughty about the data he decided to show. Hence why you have to look beyond one persons view and conclude your own (right or wrong that that is, in other peoples opinions).


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## fundy (Nov 2, 2020)

Slab said:



			^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately I have an (unfair and illogical) low opinion of anyone who chooses to communicate important information via twitter. Just can’t take it seriously, might as well release a tiktok video    

Click to expand...

learn to sort the wheat from the chaff, plenty of good information on there


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not Gupta, isn’t he Exeter? Missed the name unfortunately.
		
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Sunetra Gupta is a female zoologist/epidemiologist at Oxford and one of the signatories of the Great Barrington Declaration. She is a prominent herd immunity proponent.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Who do you mean, not heard anyone punting for anything. Any chance on a link or do I need fact checker.
		
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I think you can probably guess who I are talking about (but cannot and will not mention)...but in the context of coronavirus it was one who back in March was 100% *against *the 'herd immunity' approach now being advocated by himself and a close buddy.   In any case.  It'll be in the news later today and in tomorrows papers so no need for me to identify them further.

But as commented about the Oxford Uni professor - the intervention just confuses matters and quite possibly makes the wide adherence to the lockdown that is required all the harder to achieve.  And that is a great pity and it disappoints me greatly.


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## road2ruin (Nov 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But as commented about the Oxford Uni professor - the intervention just confuses matters and quite possibly makes the wide adherence to the lockdown that is required all the harder to achieve.  And that is a great pity and it disappoints me greatly.
		
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Not sure if you are talking about Chris Smith from Cambridge Uni? I don't know why it's a shock what he has said, he's been of that opinion for a lot of the last 6 months or so and has been on BBC throughout the period. I don't see why he should suddenly change his opinion because of the impending lockdown or should be only have those on TV etc who are supportive of it? He is a consultant virologist so I think a valid source of information. Obviously if you didn't mean this guy then I apologise in advance.


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## road2ruin (Nov 2, 2020)

Doesn't look likely that golf courses will remain open....

13:36 *Downing Street resists calls to allow golf courses and tennis courts to remain open during lockdown 2.0*
The PM's official spokesman said guidance sets out that individuals can exercise in a public space with one other person or with own household.

"It's not the intention, however, for tennis courts or for golf courses to remain open," he said.

On why the government is shutting them, he said: "People are able to use public spaces or walk or run in the park.

"The purpose of the tougher regulations, which I expect are going to be difficult for very many people, are to significantly reduce social contact."


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Not sure if you are talking about Chris Smith from Cambridge Uni? I don't know why it's a shock what he has said, he's been of that opinion for a lot of the last 6 months or so and has been on BBC throughout the period. I don't see why he should suddenly change his opinion because of the impending lockdown or should be only have those on TV etc who are supportive of it? He is a consultant virologist so I think a valid source of information. Obviously if you didn't mean this guy then I apologise in advance.
		
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No it's not...unfortunately for the government it's a potentially a more problematic intervention as it could impact wider than simply coronavirus.  And it's not a shock - though indeed it could be considered FATAL (sorry - but that's as close to identifying the two as I can get  )


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

Well, tests and lessons suspended..
Surprised how quickly they made the decision 
I needed a month off anyway...


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## bobmac (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Doesn't look likely that golf courses will remain open....
		
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I think back in April if all golfers were told they could play golf all summer as long as they had November off, most would have jumped at it


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Not sure if you are talking about Chris Smith from Cambridge Uni? I don't know why it's a shock what he has said, he's been of that opinion for a lot of the last 6 months or so and has been on BBC throughout the period. I don't see why he should suddenly change his opinion because of the impending lockdown or should be only have those on TV etc who are supportive of it? He is a consultant virologist so I think a valid source of information. Obviously if you didn't mean this guy then I apologise in advance.
		
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Wasn’t Chris it was a Professor at Oxford, he is very good and sticks to explaining current regulations and reasons for them. Never heard him talk against SAGE


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2020)




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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2020)




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## drdel (Nov 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No it's not...unfortunately for the government it's a potentially a more problematic intervention as it could impact wider than simply coronavirus.  And it's not a shock - though indeed it could be considered FATAL (sorry - but that's as close to identifying the two as I can get  )
		
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Still pushing the political inferences !!!


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## PNWokingham (Nov 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I suppose I was trying to make was that just repeating what we have already done, is destined to see more add to the same results.

So if we go lockdown and then allow people to meet up indoors again generally afterwards or for Christmas, no surprise the virus spread will pick up(this pick up, started in about June/July btw, if you look at graphs, same for most of Europe as well).

Just some of the collateral damage from the policies and peoples actions to date can be seen from my previous post, and the collateral damage is rapidly getting worse and will exceed the horrible 'let it just rip' option.

As we don't seem to have the necessary balls as a nation or individually to take proper hard action, then I just wish for an effective and safe vaccine as quick as possible. Hopefully the results will be announced in the next month and we will have some half decent answers on the vaccine situation, but even with vaccines its not likely until say 2022-2023 that things maybe returning more to the old normal.

All very sad, loads of deaths and illness tbh

Click to expand...

well said on your two posts. I totally agree. Sweden, as we know, made mistakes as well - didn't we all! But my main point is that their policies (which are evolving) are, in my opinion, better than the rest of the countries to something without an end date. The main point from you and myself is that the anciliary affects are much worse than the increased deaths we are saving from a lockdown that will only delay another surge. We cannot support these typre of policies for another year financially and the longer they go on the worse I feel that the collateral-damage excess deaths and devestation will be - and will far exceed anything Covid throws at us.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			well said on your two posts. I totally agree. Sweden, as we know, made mistakes as well - didn't we all! But my main point is that their policies (which are evolving) are, in my opinion, better than the rest of the countries to something without an end date. The main point from you and myself is that the anciliary affects are much worse than the increased deaths we are saving from a lockdown that will only delay another surge. We cannot support these typre of policies for another year financially and the longer they go on the worse I feel that the collateral-damage excess deaths and devestation will be - and will far exceed anything Covid throws at us.
		
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You are not comparing apples with apples with Sweden. It has a very small population and we know that the more people are condensed into an area the more potential for virus spread. Maybe try comparing Sweden with New Zealand who used a severe lockdown policy and you will get a more realistic comparison.

It seems to me that if we took your herd immunity policy we could be looking at  the NHS being totally overwhelmed. It's not possible to completely shield the elderly and vunrable, we can see already how the infection creeps up through the age demographics, how could you stop that happening in households that have multi age occupancy, should the young people be made to live on the streets.

IMO what you suggest is unworkable and promoting a policy of neo genocide.


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## chellie (Nov 2, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I think back in April if all golfers were told they could play golf all summer as long as they had November off, most would have jumped at it
		
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Unless you work full time, can't work from home, have no flexi time.


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## DRW (Nov 2, 2020)

Hopefully people follow the government website, so its not twitter or facebook  and you will be able to see that it would appear that cases on the whole maybe flatlining on the massive % increases (click on the UK button and it gives a 7 day rolling line, which shows it)

(possibly due to the local measures put in place and some were dropping already before put into higher tiers.  Shame we are not going to fully find out if they were fully effective now, so haven't learnt enough for those interventions and how effective they are),  :-

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/cases

Zoe data is fairly similar, indicating dropping in hot areas etc.

Hope it continues and drops start, hopefully there isn't another uptick in cases and all the bad news that brings.

Just need my area to drop back down please!!


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			well said on your two posts. I totally agree. Sweden, as we know, made mistakes as well - didn't we all! But my main point is that their policies (which are evolving) are, in my opinion, better than the rest of the countries to something without an end date. The main point from you and myself is that the anciliary affects are much worse than the increased deaths we are saving from a lockdown that will only delay another surge. We cannot support these typre of policies for another year financially and the longer they go on the worse I feel that the collateral-damage excess deaths and devestation will be - and will far exceed anything Covid throws at us.
		
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Can you highlight tangible outcomes in Sweden in relation to deaths, cases, the economy or other health issues that worked out better in Sweden than Norway and Finland, the two adjacent countries of similar shape, population and, for Norway at least, culture?


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

DRW said:



			I suppose I was trying to make was that just repeating what we have already done, is destined to see more add to the same results.

So if we go lockdown and then allow people to meet up indoors again generally afterwards or for Christmas, no surprise the virus spread will pick up(this pick up, started in about June/July btw, if you look at graphs, same for most of Europe as well).

Just some of the collateral damage from the policies and peoples actions to date can be seen from my previous post, and the collateral damage is rapidly getting worse and will exceed the horrible 'let it just rip' option.

As we don't seem to have the necessary balls as a nation or individually to take proper hard action, then I just wish for an effective and safe vaccine as quick as possible. Hopefully the results will be announced in the next month and we will have some half decent answers on the vaccine situation, but even with vaccines its not likely until say 2022-2023 that things maybe returning more to the old normal.

All very sad, loads of deaths and illness tbh

Click to expand...

So, if you are saying that a weak middling lockdown policy is the worst of all worlds, I can agree with that to some extent. Lockdown works if it is done pretty firmly, but a half-arsed lockdown is only going to prolong the pain. Nobody actually likes lockdown, but it might be better to rip the plaster off, as it were. 

As it stands, we will need a further lockdown in January, in my opinion. 

On the vaccine, I am confident that the collaborations between academia and pharma will deliver more than one vaccine, and whilst not perfect, they will change the course of this crisis. I expect administration to start to high risk groups in Q1-2/2021 but it will take some time to work through the population.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			Still pushing the political inferences !!!
		
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No different to an Oxford professor making statements that are unhelpful to the government getting us to adhere to the lockdown rules.  Just another individual being similarly unhelpful.  Unfortunately an element of the public will listen to, and take their lead from, some individuals more than others.  I can't help it that some have put certain individuals on pedestals...and I could be talking about Dr Chris Whitty or Sir Patrick Vallance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You are not comparing apples with apples with Sweden. It has a very small population and we know that the more people are condensed into an area the more potential for virus spread. Maybe try comparing Sweden with New Zealand who used a severe lockdown policy and you will get a more realistic comparison.

It seems to me that if we took your herd immunity policy we could be looking at  the NHS being totally overwhelmed. It's not possible to completely shield the elderly and vunrable, we can see already how the infection creeps up through the age demographics, how could you stop that happening in households that have multi age occupancy, should the young people be made to live on the streets.

IMO what you suggest is unworkable and promoting a policy of neo genocide.
		
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Or look at Melbourne - population 5m - which has just in the last week or so come out of a total lockdown and isolation that lasted 112days.  And on last looking I believe that there are now zero new cases daily.  

Then add in complete closure of Australia to anyone other than Australians - and those coming in have been accommodated in hotels and very strictly monitored for a 2 week quarantine period - and ban on travelling between states.

So total lockdown can work.


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## fundy (Nov 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			So, if you are saying that a weak middling lockdown policy is the worst of all worlds, I can agree with that to some extent. Lockdown works if it is done pretty firmly, but a half-arsed lockdown is only going to prolong the pain. Nobody actually likes lockdown, but it might be better to rip the plaster off, as it were.

As it stands, *we will need a further lockdown in January, in my opinion*.

On the vaccine, I am confident that the collaborations between academia and pharma will deliver more than one vaccine, and whilst not perfect, they will change the course of this crisis. I expect administration to start to high risk groups in Q1-2/2021 but it will take some time to work through the population.
		
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So you think a 4 week lockdown will only buy us 4-6 weeks before we need another one?


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## fundy (Nov 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or look at Melbourne - population 5m - which has been in total lockdown and isolation for 112days.  And on last looking I believe that there are now zero new cases daily.  So total lockdown can work.
		
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are they gonna lockdown for another 4 mths when someone inevitably brings in the virus again in a few weeks or mths?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			are they gonna lockdown for another 4 mths when someone inevitably brings in the virus again in a few weeks or mths?
		
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Don't know. 

Do we know that Sweden will act as they did 'next time'.  

But clearly if you want to stop infection in it's tracks then you can do it by severely applied lockdown...as Melbourne has proved.  And since (I believe) Australia still has it's borders closed; and it's internal state borders are closed - I am thinking they will be aiming to keep infection managed within the borders of the states using rigorous Test, Track and Trace.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			are they gonna lockdown for another 4 mths when someone inevitably brings in the virus again in a few weeks or mths?
		
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I think the reality is we’ll be in and out of lockdown for some time to come. In truth, I’m surprised this is only the second national lockdown.


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

fundy said:



			So you think a 4 week lockdown will only buy us 4-6 weeks before we need another one?
		
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Pretty much. I can't see how the compressed Christmas shopping time, visits to the pub, kids coming back from Uni etc won't result in another major spike.


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## fundy (Nov 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Pretty much. I can't see how the compressed Christmas shopping time, visits to the pub, kids coming back from Uni etc won't result in another major spike.
		
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Thats super depressing it really is


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2020)

Christmas 🙄
Most people aren't Christian so we are prepared to risk another round of infections, deaths and lockdown for the sake of a turkey blowout and some new socks (ok bit of an exaggeration there)  Hopefully most Uni Students and School kids will have herd immunity by then.


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

Some good news: T-cell immunity

Note that the report said that all people tested who had prior Covid exposure, symptomatic or asymptomatic, showed T-cell responses at 6 months.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2020)

Couldn't get out of the local retail park due to the massive queues of cars waiting to get a drive through McDonnalds backing up onto the main road and blocking off the roundabout 🙈
How can anyone be that desperate for a fatburger and fries.  Ironically they will probably stay open.


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## robinthehood (Nov 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Couldn't get out of the local retail park due to the massive queues of cars waiting to get a drive through McDonnalds backing up onto the main road and blocking off the roundabout 🙈
How can anyone be that desperate for a fatburger and fries.  Ironically they will probably stay open.
		
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They are staying open and for drive through and takeaway, my local one is anyway


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Some good news: T-cell immunity

Note that the report said that all people tested who had prior Covid exposure, symptomatic or asymptomatic, showed T-cell responses at 6 months.
		
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Some positive news amongst the doom and gloom. Thanks for sharing.


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## fenwayrich (Nov 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Pretty much. I can't see how the compressed Christmas shopping time, visits to the pub, kids coming back from Uni etc won't result in another major spike.
		
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That is the depressing aspect. A significant reason for the four week lockdown seems to be ensuring Christmas goes ahead as normal. If it does, and the festivities force a further lockdown early in 2021, the people in charge should be condemned from all sides. This pandemic is either serious, or it's not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Christmas 🙄
Most people aren't Christian so we are prepared to risk another round of infections, deaths and lockdown for the sake of a turkey blowout and some new socks (ok bit of an exaggeration there)  Hopefully most Uni Students and School kids will have herd immunity by then.
		
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And even if you are a practising Christian, Christmas Day is not just about turkey and presents...though it is very much about family and celebrating. Personally speaking it will be a blow if, as seems likely, we who are so inclined are unable to join together in praise. The lockdown might be over by then, but I expect serious restrictions on gatherings to remain.

But so be it.  I will simply be joining with others in on-line zoom celebrations at midnight then on the day - and will join in lustily from home...but difficult times now and to come and what I might well miss and lose about Christmas is not that significant at all compared with what others are losing.


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## huds1475 (Nov 2, 2020)

Funny how Christmas is already being supercharged to drive an emotional narrative, but the NW lockdown at midnight before Eid didn't provoke one.


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## GB72 (Nov 2, 2020)

I would rather they just made a call on Xmas now. At the moment I cannot plan at all. Would rather know now even if it is bad news. 2 of us at home, in-laws with an overnight stay, in-laws there and back same day, 6 people from the village, really not fussed which as there are plus points to all if it but I would rather know now than just have 3 weeks to plan and arrange. I know it will be different and unlikely to be large groups round a table but I would rather be able to plan, make sure relatives are all sorted etc


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## PNWokingham (Nov 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Can you highlight tangible outcomes in Sweden in relation to deaths, cases, the economy or other health issues that worked out better in Sweden than Norway and Finland, the two adjacent countries of similar shape, population and, for Norway at least, culture?
		
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I am not comparing Sweden to its neighbours. I am comparing Sweden's approach to the rest of us. It is obvious Sweden suffered a lot more deaths than its neighbours and they had a bad run on care homes as we did in the early stages. But you are missing my point, that i tried to emphasise - to repeat again - the effects on deaths and everything else in our economy is now outweighing the deaths saved from covid and is going to get exponentially worse. And, you say you can get doctors appoiuntmets face to face. Maybe some can. But two very close family members can refute this totally. This would not be the case, absolutely, if we did not have covid


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## PNWokingham (Nov 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Letting Covid rip through the population is not going to make it easier to get medical treatment for other ailments. Quite the contrary in fact.
		
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i repeat what i have siad. The effects are now biiger than the saving - in lives, jobs, money and any other measure. Locking down is futile and doomed for failure unless we know a cure is coming very soon. Nearly all getting covid are going to cope fine. If we spent a fraction of what we have on protecting the vulnerable we would be in a far better state than we are now, in my opinion


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I am not comparing Sweden to its neighbours. I am comparing Sweden's approach to the rest of us. It is obvious Sweden suffered a lot more deaths than its neighbours and they had a bad run on care homes as we did in the early stages. But you are missing my point, that i tried to emphasise - to repeat again - the effects on deaths and everything else in our economy is now outweighing the deaths saved from covid and is going to get exponentially worse. And, you say you can get doctors appoiuntmets face to face. Maybe some can. But two very close family members can refute this totally. This would not be the case, absolutely, if we did not have covid
		
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I am not missing the point at all, you cited Sweden as an example of things being done better, and I refuted it. People need to get off this false idea that Sweden had a good lockdown. They didn't. They had a disaster. Their situation is, in many ways, not comparable to us but if you think it is, so too are New Zealand or South Korea. They locked down hard and had much better case and death rates than either the UK or Sweden. 

Now you are switching to an unsubstantiated point that the effects on deaths and the economy is worse than Covid, and are getting exponentially worse. Is that taking the piss, using the term used to describe pandemic growth? In any case, it simply isn't true. The economic effects would have been much less had effective and swift control been applied in a timely manner to Covid. That is the lesson of history seen in previous pandemics. Instead we have seen an utter [banned word] show, and failing to control things now will only prolong matters.  

The lunatic plans for herd immunity advocated by the American libertarians funding the Great Barrington Declaration will not work, but will cost tens or hundreds of thousands of lives while failing. It is utterly irresponsible, if not criminal. It will also take a long time to play out, during which the NHS will be overwhelmed, unless there is also a plan for lime pits to push the bodies into instead. Plenty of cancer patients will die while the hospitals are packed full of the victims of herd immunity. 

There is clearly an adverse effect of Covid on other aspects of the NHS, and I know plenty of people working their arses off to reduce it. I know for a fact that you can get face to face doctors appts if one is needed, my wife is one such doctor who offers them, and I know plenty of doctors in frontline specialties across the board who are likewise working hard to keep things going in difficult circumstances. I don't know, nor want to know, anything about your family's situation or whether face to face was really needed, but regardless I don't think you can extrapolate their experience to the whole country's NHS experience. 

This pandemic is having effects on all of us, and in some cases they are very bad effects, but magical thinking ain't going to fix it.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am not missing the point at all, you cited Sweden as an example of things being done better, and I refuted it. People need to get off this false idea that Sweden had a good lockdown. They didn't. They had a disaster. Their situation is, in many ways, not comparable to us but if you think it is, so too are New Zealand or South Korea. They locked down hard and had much better case and death rates than either the UK or Sweden.

Now you are switching to an unsubstantiated point that the effects on deaths and the economy is worse than Covid, and are getting exponentially worse. Is that taking the piss, using the term used to describe pandemic growth? In any case, it simply isn't true. The economic effects would have been much less had effective and swift control been applied in a timely manner to Covid. That is the lesson of history seen in previous pandemics. Instead we have seen an utter [banned word] show, and failing to control things now will only prolong matters. 

The lunatic plans for herd immunity advocated by the American libertarians funding the Great Barrington Declaration will not work, but will cost tens or hundreds of thousands of lives while failing. It is utterly irresponsible, if not criminal. It will also take a long time to play out, during which the NHS will be overwhelmed, unless there is also a plan for lime pits to push the bodies into instead. Plenty of cancer patients will die while the hospitals are packed full of the victims of herd immunity.

There is clearly an adverse effect of Covid on other aspects of the NHS, and I know plenty of people working their arses off to reduce it. I know for a fact that you can get face to face doctors appts if one is needed, my wife is one such doctor who offers them, and I know plenty of doctors in frontline specialties across the board who are likewise working hard to keep things going in difficult circumstances. I don't know, nor want to know, anything about your family's situation or whether face to face was really needed, but regardless I don't think you can extrapolate their experience to the whole country's NHS experience.

This pandemic is having effects on all of us, and in some cases they are very bad effects, but magical thinking ain't going to fix it.
		
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well. Now i know. Pointless saying the same things again. Go have your view and i wil have mine.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i repeat what i have siad. The effects are now biiger than the saving - in lives, jobs, money and any other measure. Locking down is futile and doomed for failure unless we know a cure is coming very soon. Nearly all getting covid are going to cope fine. If we spent a fraction of what we have on protecting the vulnerable we would be in a far better state than we are now, in my opinion
		
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Explain how this throwing money at shielding the vunrable works. Does it mean lock them away and forget about them while the rest have a Covid banjo party.

We are hoping a vaccine will be available within months that will start to lower the death rates and surely that's something we all want to happen.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am not missing the point at all, you cited Sweden as an example of things being done better, and I refuted it. People need to get off this false idea that Sweden had a good lockdown. They didn't. They had a disaster. Their situation is, in many ways, not comparable to us but if you think it is, so too are New Zealand or South Korea. They locked down hard and had much better case and death rates than either the UK or Sweden.

Now you are switching to an unsubstantiated point that the effects on deaths and the economy is worse than Covid, and are getting exponentially worse. Is that taking the piss, using the term used to describe pandemic growth? In any case, it simply isn't true. The economic effects would have been much less had effective and swift control been applied in a timely manner to Covid. That is the lesson of history seen in previous pandemics. Instead we have seen an utter [banned word] show, and failing to control things now will only prolong matters. 

The lunatic plans for herd immunity advocated by the American libertarians funding the Great Barrington Declaration will not work, but will cost tens or hundreds of thousands of lives while failing. It is utterly irresponsible, if not criminal. It will also take a long time to play out, during which the NHS will be overwhelmed, unless there is also a plan for lime pits to push the bodies into instead. Plenty of cancer patients will die while the hospitals are packed full of the victims of herd immunity.

There is clearly an adverse effect of Covid on other aspects of the NHS, and I know plenty of people working their arses off to reduce it. I know for a fact that you can get face to face doctors appts if one is needed, my wife is one such doctor who offers them, and I know plenty of doctors in frontline specialties across the board who are likewise working hard to keep things going in difficult circumstances. I don't know, nor want to know, anything about your family's situation or whether face to face was really needed, but regardless I don't think you can extrapolate their experience to the whole country's NHS experience.

This pandemic is having effects on all of us, and in some cases they are very bad effects, but magical thinking ain't going to fix it.
		
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and i will bite my tongue at your aggressive, judgemental, superior bullying attitude. And will not respond to you again. You have a shocking attitude. Go preach elsewhere.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Explain how this throwing money at shielding the vunrable works. Does it mean lock them away and forget about them while the rest have a Covid banjo party.
		
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/n...orrowing-bill-set-hit-half-TRILLION-year.html

Money does not grow on trees. We need to focus on protecting the small minority who are in real danger from covid and then keeping solvent as a country to help the other 99% who need to work, feed their families etc


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			and i will bite my tongue at your aggressive, judgemental, superior bullying attitude. And will not respond to you again. You have a shocking attitude. Go preach elsewhere.
		
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You didn't really bite your tongue.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/n...orrowing-bill-set-hit-half-TRILLION-year.html

Money does not grow on trees. We need to focus on protecting the small minority who are in real danger from covid and then keeping solvent as a country to help the other 99% who need to work, feed their families etc
		
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What is this small minority, please quantify,  it would probably be in the order of 20 Million people. You still haven't explained how you propose to protect them, if it means locking them up then it's unfair and undoable.  If Covid continues to rip through society the damage will be worse than the cure you propose.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What is this small minority, please quantify it. You still haven't explained how you propose to protect them, if it means locking them up then it's unfair and undoable.  If Covid continues to rip through society the damage will be worse than the cure you propose.
		
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go read what DRW posted or my earlier posts. Can't repeat myself again. £200bn or so so far and growing - that is a lot of firepower to use to add to NHS are care homes, that would be available if we had let the mainstream econonmy carry on


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## ExRabbit (Nov 3, 2020)

Golfwise it has affected me greatly because I've realised that a lot of golfers are very selfish people. By their attitudes both by certain members at my course during the summer and by certain posters on the forums here in the last week or so.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What is this small minority, please quantify,  it would probably be in the order of 20 Million people. You still haven't explained how you propose to protect them, if it means locking them up then it's unfair and undoable.  If Covid continues to rip through society the damage will be worse than the cure you propose.
		
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I agree. And how do you define who are the vulnerable?

Obviously those in care homes are in this category but how do you protect them? Do all care home staff have to live-in at the care home? If not, what about those with families? If they have kids at school they could bring the virus home and pass it on to mum or dad to take back to the care home.

What about vulnerable people that live at home but need a carer? How do you protect that person when the carer is seeing 10 or 12 different people each day?

What about someone with an underlying health condition? Do their kids have to stay off school to protect their vulnerable parent?

"Protecting the vulnerable" is a lovely little catchphrase but is unrealistic and unworkable.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			well. Now i know. Pointless saying the same things again. Go have your view and i wil have mine.
		
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I suspect you still don't know and your answer proves you don't want to know. Proponents of the herd immunity idea just know in their minds it is the right thing to do and care little for facts, any actual plan for how it might work (because it won't). Just like another recent idea, it is an act of faith not evidence. 

Setting aside the mss laughter of older and middle aged people, the practical issue is that if you let the virus go, it will cause so many cases that the NHS is completely seized up for months, and no cancer patients or your relatives will get appointments of any sort. If you want to manage the flow of herd immunity sacrifices, then you need some sort of lockdown to throttle the demand. 

It can't possibly work, and nobody who advocates it has even attempted to suggest a method by which it would.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			and i will bite my tongue at your aggressive, judgemental, superior bullying attitude. And will not respond to you again. You have a shocking attitude. Go preach elsewhere.
		
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Bite more than that. I am not the one who wants to kill tens of thousands or people. How your attitude to human life makes you think you think you are morally superior is a mystery. Typical libertarian attitude to avoid answering and have a tantrum instead, attack the person not the arguments. Your post is all about attacking me. Mine was all about attacking the arguments you made, not you personally. If you can't be mature about it, please don't respond any more. But I will refute your arguments where they are bad ones, and am willing to agree with them when they are good. Not holding my breath, though.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I agree. And how do you define who are the vulnerable?

Obviously those in care homes are in this category but how do you protect them? Do all care home staff have to live-in at the care home? If not, what about those with families? If they have kids at school they could bring the virus home and pass it on to mum or dad to take back to the care home.

What about vulnerable people that live at home but need a carer? How do you protect that person when the carer is seeing 10 or 12 different people each day?

What about someone with an underlying health condition? Do their kids have to stay off school to protect their vulnerable parent?

"Protecting the vulnerable" is a lovely little catchphrase but is unrealistic and unworkable.
		
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The proponents of this approach don't really care, and have no plan. They have basically taken a position of open the economy and screwing the old and weak is a price worth paying. They have no thought for how this would actually play out.


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## Kellfire (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			and i will bite my tongue at your aggressive, judgemental, superior bullying attitude. And will not respond to you again. You have a shocking attitude. Go preach elsewhere.
		
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His response was measured and informative from a position of knowledge and aimed entirely at refuting inaccuracies in your own statements. 

You’re simply offended at the fact someone is questioning you which is something you’ve repeatedly shown form for.


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## road2ruin (Nov 3, 2020)

Yesterday I asked why SAGE weren't being more transparent with the data, I was told that it's all out there however it isn't. I am not talking about ONS data etc, it was more the assumptions etc that gave the basis of their figure of 4,000+ deaths per day. Before I am called out as a 'Covid -denier' or 'Covidiot' I am neither, I have no issues with tighter restrictions as long as they are required and that they are backed up with appropriate data. Anyway, it appears that I am not alone as Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance have been called before the Science and Technology Select Committee this afternoon to explain the figures given on Saturday. 

This is the graph that has caused the particular concern...




SAGE's figures are 1,800 more than any other model, that's a huge (and for the general population, frightening) number and if correct then you cannot argue against the case for lockdown. In context, this number is 4 times higher than the worst day of death during the first wave. However, what they haven't been so forthcoming about is that this model was put together using data that was old, it was before the new Tier system was put in place. It has been acknowledged (ONS data) that in the north west the number of cases we levelling out and the R-rate nationally was starting to come down (albeit slowly). The above model was based on an R rate of 1.3-15 however the day before the announcement the Government's official R rate was 1.1-1.3. Again, why the usage of out of date data for something so important as a national lockdown? Yesterday the government office for science was asked which groups had modelled the varying scenarios, or what parameters had been used to creative the graph used at the weekend but refused. Why refuse if you're using data that clearly supports your argument?

I suspect I was be dismissed however to be clear, I am not against restrictions and I am not advocating herd immunity etc however what I am saying is that if there restrictions are to be put in place then surely there needs to be more transparency and the data/graphs that they're scaring the general public with need to be accurate?


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2020)

IMO the thread has just become an increasingly rude tit for tat game.

Is it possible to allow people to post about their own experiences in a mature and respectful manner??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Yesterday I asked why SAGE weren't being more transparent with the data, I was told that it's all out there however it isn't. I am not talking about ONS data etc, it was more the assumptions etc that gave the basis of their figure of 4,000+ deaths per day. Before I am called out as a 'Covid -denier' or 'Covidiot' I am neither, I have no issues with tighter restrictions as long as they are required and that they are backed up with appropriate data. Anyway, it appears that I am not alone as Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance have been called before the Science and Technology Select Committee this afternoon to explain the figures given on Saturday.

This is the graph that has caused the particular concern...

View attachment 33284


*SAGE's figures are 1,800 more* than any other model, that's a huge (and for the general population, frightening) number and if correct then you cannot argue against the case for lockdown. In context, this number is 4 times higher than the worst day of death during the first wave. However, what they haven't been so forthcoming about is that this model was put together using data that was old, it was before the new Tier system was put in place. It has been acknowledged (ONS data) that in the north west the number of cases we levelling out and the R-rate nationally was starting to come down (albeit slowly). The above model was based on an R rate of 1.3-15 however the day before the announcement the Government's official R rate was 1.1-1.3. Again, why the usage of out of date data for something so important as a national lockdown? Yesterday the government office for science was asked which groups had modelled the varying scenarios, or what parameters had been used to creative the graph used at the weekend but refused. Why refuse if you're using data that clearly supports your argument?

I suspect I was be dismissed however to be clear, I am not against restrictions and I am not advocating herd immunity etc however what I am saying is that if there restrictions are to be put in place then surely there needs to be more transparency and the data/graphs that they're scaring the general public with need to be accurate?
		
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Do you mean PHE's figures?

Anyway - my guess is that one of the Whitty/Vallance Charts we were shown covered the spread of predictions shown in the chart you have posted in the form of a prediction (consensus view) plus uncertainty bounds.  Draw a vertical line down mid-December and I am guessing that the PHE (the highest) will be reflected by the upper uncertainty bound shown on Whitty/Vallance chart - and the Sage Worst Case (the lowest) will be reflected by the lower uncertainty bound - with the 'consensus' shown by Whitty/Vallance somewhere in between.  That's just my first glance quick take from it.  I might have got it totally wrong.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Yesterday I asked why SAGE weren't being more transparent with the data, I was told that it's all out there however it isn't. I am not talking about ONS data etc, it was more the assumptions etc that gave the basis of their figure of 4,000+ deaths per day. Before I am called out as a 'Covid -denier' or 'Covidiot' I am neither, I have no issues with tighter restrictions as long as they are required and that they are backed up with appropriate data. Anyway, it appears that I am not alone as Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance have been called before the Science and Technology Select Committee this afternoon to explain the figures given on Saturday.

This is the graph that has caused the particular concern...

View attachment 33284


SAGE's figures are 1,800 more than any other model, that's a huge (and for the general population, frightening) number and if correct then you cannot argue against the case for lockdown. In context, this number is 4 times higher than the worst day of death during the first wave. However, what they haven't been so forthcoming about is that this model was put together using data that was old, it was before the new Tier system was put in place. It has been acknowledged (ONS data) that in the north west the number of cases we levelling out and the R-rate nationally was starting to come down (albeit slowly). The above model was based on an R rate of 1.3-15 however the day before the announcement the Government's official R rate was 1.1-1.3. Again, why the usage of out of date data for something so important as a national lockdown? Yesterday the government office for science was asked which groups had modelled the varying scenarios, or what parameters had been used to creative the graph used at the weekend but refused. Why refuse if you're using data that clearly supports your argument?

I suspect I was be dismissed however to be clear, I am not against restrictions and I am not advocating herd immunity etc however what I am saying is that if there restrictions are to be put in place then surely there needs to be more transparency and the data/graphs that they're scaring the general public with need to be accurate?
		
Click to expand...


In that graphic, the line marked as the SAGE worst case is closer to the lowest rather than worst.

When looking at these data sets, you need to see the data sources used to populate the model, the assumptions used and also whether they are projections based on certain assumptions or predictions for what will actually happen. The two are not the same. Projections are intended to stimulate action to prevent them happening. 

One of the problems at present is that testing data from Test and Trace is a complete mess, so any projection or prediction based on that is unreliable. The prevalence studies conducted by ONS where community rates are estimated by random sampling should be a better estimate of what is really happening. There is no doubt tat hospital admissions are rising fast and in some places ICU beds are at or near capacity. The average citizen doesn't need to know exactly what the R is because they don't know what that means anyway, they just need to know that if they don't get their act together then when they or a family member inevitably needs an NHS bed for Covid or something else, there won't be one available for them.


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## bobmac (Nov 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			IMO the thread has just become an increasingly rude tit for tat game.

Is it possible to allow people to post about their own experiences in a mature and respectful manner??
		
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## road2ruin (Nov 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			In that graphic, the line marked as the SAGE worst case is closer to the lowest rather than worst.

When looking at these data sets, you need to see the data sources used to populate the model, the assumptions used and also whether they are projections based on certain assumptions or predictions for what will actually happen. The two are not the same. Projections are intended to stimulate action to prevent them happening.

One of the problems at present is that testing data from Test and Trace is a complete mess, so any projection or prediction based on that is unreliable. The prevalence studies conducted by ONS where community rates are estimated by random sampling should be a better estimate of what is really happening. There is no doubt tat hospital admissions are rising fast and in some places ICU beds are at or near capacity. The average citizen doesn't need to know exactly what the R is because they don't know what that means anyway, they just need to know that if they don't get their act together then when they or a family member inevitably needs an NHS bed for Covid or something else, there won't be one available for them.
		
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I agree however what I don't understand is that when we're told about cases rising and things getting out of control today how they can stand up there presenting a graph that (apparently) using the data from the Cambridge statistical unit was three weeks out of date. The more recent data from the same unit is less frightening but was not used. Is that because it doesn't fit the narrative of what they are trying to achieve? If they show that, potentially, cases are plateauing etc then people will not take it seriously so they go with the apocalyptic version as it makes a better graph?


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I agree however what I don't understand is that when we're told about cases rising and things getting out of control today how they can stand up there presenting a graph that (apparently) using the data from the Cambridge statistical unit was three weeks out of date. The more recent data from the same unit is less frightening but was not used. Is that because it doesn't fit the narrative of what they are trying to achieve? If they show that, potentially, cases are plateauing etc then people will not take it seriously so they go with the apocalyptic version as it makes a better graph?
		
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I can't answer that. It is always preferable to use more recent and reliable data, but anyway you do it, predicting what is about to happen has a large measure of uncertainty attached, especially when the factors which influence the short term have already taken place and you are in the dead time waiting for that to translate into cases. 

But does it really matter? If people are told there are going to be 2000, 5000, 10000 more cases, and 100,200, 500 deaths a day, how does their behaviour change across that scale? Is there a point where they say 'well, 100 deaths a day is acceptable so I can still go to the pub, but gee, 2000 a day is bad. I'll stay at home'?

The public does not have a good feel for what these numbers actually mean. They look at a 1% risk and see a 99% chance that it will be alright, not realising that the 1% repeats. The message needs to be simple, that the NHS will be overwhelmed and the economy, their job, the pubs and shops, will not be opened until people get their act together.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Indeed - we are not good on statistics and what they mean.   So in it's simplest (I know all will know this) in a group of 10 friends the stats tell us that half will develop a cancer in their lifetimes.  If five of the friends develop a cancer that doesn't mean that cancer is done with that group of ten - the probability that any one of the other five developing a cancer in their lifetime remains the same - indeed it is possible that all ten will develop a cancer.  I suspect that sort of understanding escapes many of us when looking at the stats for coronavirus.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - we are not good on statistics and what they mean.   So in it's simplest (I know all will know this) in a group of 10 friends the stats tell us that half will develop a cancer in their lifetimes.  If five of the friends develop a cancer that doesn't mean that cancer is done with that group of ten - the probability that any one of the other five developing a cancer in their lifetime remains the same - indeed it is possible that all ten will develop a cancer.  I suspect that sort of understanding escapes many of us when looking at the stats for coronavirus.
		
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I remember some years ago when I was in public health, a story was published saying that the oral contraceptive pill doubled the risk of thromboembolic problems. The data was good and the findings reliable. Many women on the pill freaked out, and this being just before mass social media, meetings were organised where worried women came to talk about it. 

Thing was, although the risk had indeed been shown to be double, it had only doubled from really very unlikely to very unlikely, and driving to a meeting in an agitated state to hear about it probably exposed the woman to greater risk. I heard one women on TV saying she was so worried she smoked a whole packet of cigarettes. That definitely exposed her to more risk. 

People have an unusual relationships with risk, with contradictions between how they respond to familiar vs unfamiliar risks.


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## road2ruin (Nov 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I can't answer that. It is always preferable to use more recent and reliable data, but anyway you do it, predicting what is about to happen has a large measure of uncertainty attached, especially when the factors which influence the short term have already taken place and you are in the dead time waiting for that to translate into cases.

But does it really matter? If people are told there are going to be 2000, 5000, 10000 more cases, and 100,200, 500 deaths a day, how does their behaviour change across that scale? Is there a point where they say 'well, 100 deaths a day is acceptable so I can still go to the pub, but gee, 2000 a day is bad. I'll stay at home'?

The public does not have a good feel for what these numbers actually mean. They look at a 1% risk and see a 99% chance that it will be alright, not realising that the 1% repeats. The message needs to be simple, that the NHS will be overwhelmed and the economy, their job, the pubs and shops, will not be opened until people get their act together.
		
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To an extent I agree however could you not argue that by being a little more positive with the numbers that people might actually buy in to the whole thing more? It appeared that the Tiered system was having an affect and the numbers were coming down so maybe people would have felt that the restrictions were actually having an impact and so worth sticking to as an end would be in sight. By showing data that is potentially out of date and that everything is out of control then people may resign themselves to nothing is working so what is the point in trying etc.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 3, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			His response was measured and informative from a position of knowledge and aimed entirely at refuting inaccuracies in your own statements.

You’re simply offended at the fact someone is questioning you which is something you’ve repeatedly shown form for.
		
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absolute rubbish. I was giving an opinion, My opinion. Anything is hard to back up in relation to covid and the stats are often meaningless. You can rubbish aleged facts with facts but not an opinion!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			absolute rubbish. I was giving an opinion, My opinion. Anything is hard to back up in relation to covid and the stats are often meaningless. You can rubbish aleged facts with facts but not an opinion!
		
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Does that mean we are back to 'belief'...?  Ah well.  So be it.  But it feels that you  are not offering anything substantive on how the NHS would be able to cope were a 'protect the vulnerable and let it rip' strategy adopted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

This might be a daft question - but has exercised my wife as she is a real stickler for the rules.

She and I go for a walk.  When we are out we meet our daughter - also out for a walk.  Now she is one individual from another household so I think she can join us.  OK.  Now my daughter is out for a walk.  She meets me and my wife also out for a walk. We are two individuals from another household and so I think that we can't join her.  Eh?


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This might be a daft question - but has exercised my wife as she is a real stickler for the rules.

She and I go for a walk.  When we are out we meet our daughter - also out for a walk.  Now she is one individual from another household so I think she can join us.  OK.  Now my daughter is out for a walk.  She meets me and my wife also out for a walk. We are two individuals from another household and so I think that we can't join her.  Eh?
		
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1 person can meet 1 other person... its pretty easy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			1 person can meet 1 other person... its pretty easy.
		
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Ah right.  I though it was that individuals in a household could meet up with one individual from another household. 

So when me and my wife are out for a walk we - as a pair - cannot join up with our daughter.  But if my wife goes out for a walk and I wander along behind - then she and my daughter can join up - and I must keep my distance and not mingle...which is OK but obviously a bit daft as anything my daughter passes to my wife she will pass to me  So my daughter might as well pass it to me...


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## robinthehood (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah right.  So when me and my wife are out for a walk we - as a pair - cannot join up with our daughter.  But if my wife goes out for a walk and I wander along behind 0- then she and my daughter can join up - and I must keep my distance and not mingle...which is a bit daft as anything my daughter passes to my wife my wife will pass to me  So my daughter might as well pass it to me...
		
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https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-nat...aying-safe-outside-the-home-social-distancing


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

robinthehood said:



https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-nat...aying-safe-outside-the-home-social-distancing

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Ah - the pertinent rule is that I can exercise with members of my household OR one individual from another household.

But not both.  Sorted.  I'll just walk at least 2m behind my wife - nothing new there then...


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am not missing the point at all, you cited Sweden as an example of things being done better, and I refuted it. People need to get off this false idea that Sweden had a good lockdown. They didn't. They had a disaster. Their situation is, in many ways, not comparable to us but if you think it is, *so too are New Zealand* or South Korea. They locked down hard and had much better case and death rates than either the UK or Sweden.
.../QUOTE]
As a Kiwi, I've followed NZ's reaction to the virus. Its approach has certainly kept the virus out, buit at ajn enormous cost (tourism etc) that has not been fully quantified (yet). That cost has also been 'balanced' by the 'savings' of hospital care (and the bureaucracy involved in planning, setup etc). But the entire population is still 'at risk' shbould an outbreak happen. Until a vaccine is available, the country is still susceptable to an outbreak - with no less dire consequences than elsewhere. Fortunately, Kiwis are (imo) generally much more inclined to trust what their government says - and obey the rules!
		
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## Kellfire (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			absolute rubbish. I was giving an opinion, My opinion. Anything is hard to back up in relation to covid and the stats are often meaningless. You can rubbish aleged facts with facts but not an opinion!
		
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Thing is though it’s not rubbish. It’s a medical professional with expertise in the field. And you seem to be just buying into certain conspiracy theories which are easily debunked.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...Sorted.  I'll just walk at least 2m behind my wife - nothing new there then...
		
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You know your place!


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			absolute rubbish. I was giving an opinion, My opinion. Anything is hard to back up in relation to covid and the stats are often meaningless. You can rubbish aleged facts with facts but not an opinion!
		
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Er..Perhaps you should provide some facts (even alleged ones) that back up your opinion! And, FWIW, I'm not suggesting any opinion is wrong/less based on 'facts'!


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## Slab (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah right.  I though it was that individuals in a household could meet up with one individual from another household.

So when me and my wife are out for a walk we - as a pair - cannot join up with our daughter.  But if my wife goes out for a walk and I wander along behind - then she and my daughter can join up - and I must keep my distance and not mingle...which is OK *but obviously a bit daft as anything my daughter passes to my wife she will pass to me*  So my daughter might as well pass it to me...
		
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Why would your daughter pass the virus to your wife?


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah - the pertinent rule is that I can exercise with members of my household OR one individual from another household.

But not both.  Sorted.  I'll just walk at least 2m behind my wife - nothing new there then...
		
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Can't resist it. Bit uncouth , I know, 

But at least you can fart safely😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			Why would your daughter pass the virus to your wife?
		
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Well if my daughter was a carrier it is possible/likely(?) that she would pass it to my wife as they'd be walking together.  Though I guess as long as they keep 2m apart the risk is low.


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## Imurg (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well if my daughter was a carrier it is possible/likely(?) that she would pass it to my wife as they'd be walking together.  Though I guess as long as they keep 2m apart the risk is low.
		
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Won't they be 2m apart.?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Can't resist it. Bit uncouth , I know,

But at least you can fart safely😉
		
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wind direction sir - wind direction...


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## drdel (Nov 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Er..Perhaps you should provide some facts (even alleged ones) that back up your opinion! And, FWIW, I'm not suggesting any opinion is wrong/less based on 'facts'!
		
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Why if it is his opinion that's fine he does not have to defend it to anyone!!


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## Slab (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well if my daughter was a carrier it is possible/likely(?) that she would pass it to my wife as they'd be walking together.  Though I guess as long as they keep 2m apart the risk is low.
		
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Then the real problem is what did your wife/daughter/both do wrong in order for it to pass from one to the other?
(That would be of greater concern to me in your scenario)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			Then the real problem is what did your wife/daughter/both do wrong in order for it to pass from one to the other?
(That would be of greater concern to me in your scenario)
		
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They get too close when walking.  But that said - to date we have been very diligent in our adherence to the rules in our meetings with our daughter (who lives not 2 miles from us).  Like everyone is experiencing, we do find it sad and difficult that we haven't been able to give her a peck on the cheek or hug in greeting since March as she has been very supportive of us through difficult family times...but we know that we are well down that spectrum compared with the many who cannot do similar with those close who are in care or in hospital.


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## Slab (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They get too close when walking.  But that said - to date we have been very diligent in our adherence to the rules in our meetings with our daughter (who lives not 2 miles from us).  Like everyone is experiencing, we do find it sad and difficult that we haven't been able to give her a peck on the cheek or hug in greeting since March as she has been very supportive of us through difficult family times...but we know that we are well down that spectrum compared with the many who cannot do similar with those close who are in care or in hospital.
		
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You strike me as the kind of guy that would be diligent, so with the practical safeguards before, during and after they met (i.e distancing, masks, sanitizer, washing, showering, change of clothing, not touching face, etc) from _both_ parties, it’s actually gonna be pretty hard for them to pass/receive it

I agree it'll be tough (and pretty frustrating) not to hug it out etc but it is what it is for the time being, better safe than sorry, chin up


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## PNWokingham (Nov 3, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Thing is though it’s not rubbish. It’s a medical professional with expertise in the field. And you seem to be just buying into certain conspiracy theories which are easily debunked.
		
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grow up. I never ventured an opinion on what he said, i just reiterated my view - DRW stated many issues that back it up, as do the media everywhere. What nobody from all sides can do is a very good quantification of anything apart from the £200bn or so it this has cost the country so far (and maybe double that for the full year) and the misery it has caused by covid and the consequences for everyone in the country. There needs to be a balancing act it treating covid, preventing it spreading too fast and shielding vulnerable alobng with limiting dage to the economy so we can maintain resources for treatment and everything else in the economy. I support local restrictions but not national measures. The track and trace is a joke and we could have done many things better and clearly locking down a few weeks earlier in Feb/March would have helped. But we cannot have a national lockdown for a month, come out for a month or so and repeat. We do not know what vacinnes or treatments will appear and when and how successful they will be. But the world cannot go on like this for another 6 months or more without dire human and financial conseqences

The Great Barrington declaration has the support of thousands of experts. I have not read or looked into what they say too much, but as the experts on here trash it i as nonesence, I guess it is!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			grow up. I never ventured an opinion on what he said, i just reiterated my view - DRW stated many issues that back it up, as do the media everywhere. What nobody from all sides can do is a very good quantification of anything apart from the £200bn or so it this has cost the country so far (and maybe double that for the full year) and the misery it has caused by covid and the consequences for everyone in the country. There needs to be a balancing act it treating covid, preventing it spreading too fast and shielding vulnerable alobng with limiting dage to the economy so we can maintain resources for treatment and everything else in the economy. I support local restrictions but not national measures. The track and trace is a joke and we could have done many things better and clearly locking down a few weeks earlier in Feb/March would have helped. But we cannot have a national lockdown for a month, come out for a month or so and repeat. We do not know what vacinnes or treatments will appear and when and how successful they will be. But the world cannot go on like this for another 6 months or more without dire human and financial conseqences

The Great Barrington declaration has the support of thousands of experts. I have not read or looked into what they say too much, but as the experts on here trash it i as nonesence, I guess it is!
		
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You have still not quantified the details of how your preferred plan would work.

Who and how many are the vunrable that we should shield.

How do we shield them, how do we do that safely and what would be the cost.

What would happen to those not shielding who catch Covid.

Could the NHS cope with the potential number of hospitalisations if Covid is allowed to spread unrestrained.

Would other countries ban UK residents from entry if there was no control.

Is it realistic to make comparisons between the UK and especially England with countries that have a fraction of the population density.

I could go on but these are all matters needing answers before considering a herd immunity policy.


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## GB72 (Nov 3, 2020)

Can we just stop this pointless bickering. This was a great thread where people could express their personal feelings about lockdown and how it is impacted them. It was actually a useful release as well as being very informative about how this was impacting people in other countries. As someone who tends to follow the somewhat counterproductive stiff upper lip approach in front of friends and family, it was nice to be able to let the guard down a bit and vent to what are, in many cases, complete strangers. 

And what have people done with that thread, turned it into the political thread mark 2 where it is just a constant back and forth about whether you believe in lockdowns or not, who is hiding what date etc and you know the irony of it (seems to be my word of the day) the political thread was created to keep the petty bickering off this thread which was started to discuss this whole situation on a more personal and sometimes emotional level. 

You may say 'well don't ready it then'  but I persist because there are times where people succeed in turning the thread back to what it was and it is worth reading for their moments. If you want to argue the toss about the rights and wrongs  lockdowns, start a thread about it and see how long it lasts. 

Sorry, rant over.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Can we just stop this pointless bickering. This was a great thread where people could express their personal feelings about lockdown and how it is impacted them. It was actually a useful release as well as being very informative about how this was impacting people in other countries. As someone who tends to follow the somewhat counterproductive stiff upper lip approach in front of friends and family, it was nice to be able to let the guard down a bit and vent to what are, in many cases, complete strangers.

And what have people done with that thread, turned it into the political thread mark 2 where it is just a constant back and forth about whether you believe in lockdowns or not, who is hiding what date etc and you know the irony of it (seems to be my word of the day) the political thread was created to keep the petty bickering off this thread which was started to discuss this whole situation on a more personal and sometimes emotional level.

You may say 'well don't ready it then'  but I persist because there are times where people succeed in turning the thread back to what it was and it is worth reading for their moments. If you want to argue the toss about the rights and wrongs  lockdowns, start a thread about it and see how long it lasts.

Sorry, rant over.
		
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Surely the current discussion is about differing ways a country can manage the Covid pandemic and how a certain policy would affect people. I honestly can't see why such a discussion should be a problem to anyone. I can see that if the debate breaks into name calling or personal insults there would be an issue but that's the same with just about any thread on a forum.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the current discussion is about differing ways a country can manage the Covid pandemic and how a certain policy would affect people. I honestly can't see why such a discussion should be a problem to anyone. I can see that if the debate breaks into name calling or personal insults there would be an issue but that's the same with just about any thread on a forum.
		
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Totally agree, many on here have been affected by the coronavirus on a personal/family level and as much as the thread title asks how is it/has it affected you and we are all entitled to our opinion and to tell “our story” it is not easy to read some of the attitudes and proposals on how to deal with the virus and these opinions on a forum can be respectfully questioned.

Many times a thread will wonder off track and either be re-focussed naturally or the mods will step in.


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## bluewolf (Nov 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the current discussion is about differing ways a country can manage the Covid pandemic and how a certain policy would affect people. I honestly can't see why such a discussion should be a problem to anyone. I can see that if the debate breaks into name calling or personal insults there would be an issue but that's the same with just about any thread on a forum.
		
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It's only a discussion if people are willing to listen/read.

As with most things online, people just want to continually spout their "opinions" whilst ignoring facts and expertise in favour of what Barry from Dagenham has posted on Facebook recently.. It's why I don't frequent these (or any other) boards that much anymore. I prefer to discuss face to face. It keeps the discussion honest...


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## GB72 (Nov 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the current discussion is about differing ways a country can manage the Covid pandemic and how a certain policy would affect people. I honestly can't see why such a discussion should be a problem to anyone. I can see that if the debate breaks into name calling or personal insults there would be an issue but that's the same with just about any thread on a forum.
		
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Actually, no, you are totally wrong and the title of the thread pretty much explains that. Not sure how a thread asking how it affect you and invites comments about personal experience can be interpreted as an invite to discuss how a country should manage a pandemic and that is not what this thread is about. It was set up for personal impacts of the pandemic and lockdown  and a place to express may be even more important over the next few weeks. You want to argue in general terms about lockdowns and policy I would say, firstly, that it is a political debate and so not permitted and, secondly, if you think it should be allowed then start a thread, lockdowns and policy, right or wrong. 

Anyway, had my say and whilst I am always happy discuss matters, I will avoid the irony of taking the thread off track again by arguing about whether the thread has gone off track.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			grow up. I never ventured an opinion on what he said, i just reiterated my view - DRW stated many issues that back it up, as do the media everywhere. What nobody from all sides can do is a very good quantification of anything apart from the £200bn or so it this has cost the country so far (and maybe double that for the full year) and the misery it has caused by covid and the consequences for everyone in the country. There needs to be a balancing act it treating covid, preventing it spreading too fast and shielding vulnerable alobng with limiting dage to the economy so we can maintain resources for treatment and everything else in the economy. I support local restrictions but not national measures. The track and trace is a joke and we could have done many things better and clearly locking down a few weeks earlier in Feb/March would have helped. But we cannot have a national lockdown for a month, come out for a month or so and repeat. We do not know what vacinnes or treatments will appear and when and how successful they will be. But the world cannot go on like this for another 6 months or more without dire human and financial conseqences

The Great Barrington declaration has the support of thousands of experts. I have not read or looked into what they say too much, but as the experts on here trash it i as nonesence, I guess it is!
		
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I agree with some of that. Clearly a balance ends to be struck between containing the virus and the rest of normal life. That debate can be boiled down to whether one thinks these two aspects (Covid and the economy) are in opposition or locked together. I think some of the data cited on other effects is rather suspect and the same projections were not borne out in Sweden over the summer. Also, distant effects are normally discounted. Present day costs and benefits carry more value than distant ones, and there are formulae used by NICE and others to do this. I doubt these were applied to these calculations. 

I agree test and trace is disastrous and barely worth doing in its current form, and that effective measures in Feb/March with greater short term pain would have paid off now. But does that not suggest that the best stragey now, short of time travel back, is to lockdown hard and try to make a job job of it, otherwise a half-arsed version only makes a further episode more likely? They also need to test close contacts, and are missing asymptomatic transmission by not doing so. 

As for Great Barrington, the article was actually written by an American libertarian lobbying group based in Great Barrington. The prominent names attached include Sunetra Gupta, a zoologist/epidemiologist from Oxford who published a controversial and largely discredited paper suggesting a much higher prevalence of immunity than anybody else, and Karol Sikora, an oncologist associated with the private University of Buckingham, which was started by American libertarians. They, and others, make vague statements about protecting the vulnerable whilst letting normal life continue. They have never explained exactly how this can be achieved, but many of us would live to hear. But it also makes a bit of a binary distinction between vulnerable and everybody else, and the population isn't divided that way. Herd immunity, if it is even possible, carries a very large price and most of it will be paid by middle aged people who are still economically active and have dependents. It doesn't make a lot of economic sense. And it will place enormous strain on the NHS, which is currently creaking, and make worse exactly the problem that many have highlighted, the effect of displacing other types of care. It is a magical thinking option. 

Despite the views of several here, I actually don't want to pick keyboard fights with people, but I will strongly debate my points and attempt to offer evidence and coherent arguments for them. I am happy for anybody to ask me to justify anything I say, so long as I can ask the same of them.


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## DRW (Nov 3, 2020)

Decided to take a day off work with the impending lockdown and enjoy the outside and go for a nice relaxing walk.

Have to say, my heart wasn't really in it  and feel I kind of wasted a day off, wish I had gone last week  but grateful for the time off and great weather. Always got to find something to be positive about.

Going to be a long month or so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Actually, no, you are totally wrong and the title of the thread pretty much explains that. Not sure how a thread asking how it affect you and invites comments about personal experience can be interpreted as an invite to discuss how a country should manage a pandemic and that is not what this thread is about. It was set up for personal impacts of the pandemic and lockdown  and a place to express may be even more important over the next few weeks. You want to argue in general terms about lockdowns and policy I would say, firstly, that it is a political debate and so not permitted and, secondly, if you think it should be allowed then start a thread, lockdowns and policy, right or wrong.

Anyway, had my say and whilst I am always happy discuss matters, I will avoid the irony of taking the thread off track again by arguing about whether the thread has gone off track.
		
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Sorry, the thread title and the op do not back up what you say, it was posted 8 months ago prior to the lockdown and before the World woke up and the post owner had no idea how this thread would/should or could evolve.

Feel free to read the first 20 posts and how even in that short period the response to the title wasn’t as focused as you describe it.


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## GB72 (Nov 3, 2020)

And to go back to a personal level, I have to admit that this lockdown has got me far more concerned than the last one did. Actually, with both my wife and I in stable jobs, the financial side is far less of a concern last time but the time of year makes this a far more challenging prospect. Last time I could do work in the garden, sit out on the drive with a glass of wine and chat to villagers walking past on their hour of exercise etc and just the whole prospect was not as daunting with the sun shining. This time, I fear we are pretty much going to be shut indoors for 4 weeks and that is something which is very concerning as to how I will cope. Only had one day off work since last Xmas due to this and had planned a few bits and pieces over the coming weeks as had got the courage up to start on meals out a bit further afield and had even agreed to do an air bnb for a couple of nights. Sadly all cancelled now.


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## GB72 (Nov 3, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry, the thread title and the op do not back up what you say, it was posted 8 months ago prior to the lockdown and before the World woke up and the post owner had no idea how this thread would/should or could evolve.

Feel free to read the first 20 posts and how even in that short period the response to the title wasn’t as focused as you describe it.
		
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Perhaps then consider that was the very reason that the political thread was created after it started taking over and has reverted back on to this one since it was removed. 

Anyway, you want to keep arguing about the benefits or not of lockdown on here then feel free.


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## Kellfire (Nov 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			grow up. I never ventured an opinion on what he said, i just reiterated my view - DRW stated many issues that back it up, as do the media everywhere. What nobody from all sides can do is a very good quantification of anything apart from the £200bn or so it this has cost the country so far (and maybe double that for the full year) and the misery it has caused by covid and the consequences for everyone in the country. There needs to be a balancing act it treating covid, preventing it spreading too fast and shielding vulnerable alobng with limiting dage to the economy so we can maintain resources for treatment and everything else in the economy. I support local restrictions but not national measures. The track and trace is a joke and we could have done many things better and clearly locking down a few weeks earlier in Feb/March would have helped. But we cannot have a national lockdown for a month, come out for a month or so and repeat. We do not know what vacinnes or treatments will appear and when and how successful they will be. But the world cannot go on like this for another 6 months or more without dire human and financial conseqences

The Great Barrington declaration has the support of thousands of experts. I have not read or looked into what they say too much, but as the experts on here trash it i as nonesence, I guess it is!
		
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What were you saying about people replying aggressively?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

It's not easy to comment about how we are impacted as individuals by the coronavirus as the impacts we experience largely come about through government policy.   But when we comment on a policy that is deemed 'political' - when in fact it only becomes 'political' when individuals take stances on it reflecting political positions - when in fact the only position that actually matters when discussing the impact on us is the position taken by the government.

As a result I should, for instance, be able to observe (without political comment or being accused of being political) on the furlough scheme as it might apply to a Scottish Lockdown. I can surely observe that in the HoC yesterday the PM confirmed to the Leader of the Scottish Conservatives that the furlough scheme in place for the English Lockdown will apply equally to any future Scottish lockdown.  But today I hear that there is some 'rowing back' on this.  Why does that matter to me?  Because some of my immediate family and relatives in Scotland could be severely impacted by a Scottish Lockdown...and they will depend upon government support.

And I should be able to express my concern about this and wonder why our government might not extend the 80% furlough scheme to a Scottish Lockdown - and I might wonder about how that would play with a Scottish electorate with Holyrood elections coming up in almost precisely 6 months time.   These are concerns and observations.  I take no political stance.

However i do recognise that the above might _generate _political discourse - discourse that I will not engage in - but it is surely that discourse that would be out of bounds...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Perhaps then consider that was the very reason that the political thread was created after it started taking over and has reverted back on to this one since it was removed.

Anyway, you want to keep arguing about the benefits or not of lockdown on here then feel free.
		
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It’s not arguing, it’s discussing, and as others have said so long as no one over steps the forum rules, what is really wrong with that, maybe some are able to cope with what’s happening by having these discussions about the wider aspects of coronavirus.

Personally, having 3 out of 4 in the household in the high risk category and the 3 of them only venturing out of the house for a combined total of 5 times it has been very helpful to me see all sides of these discussions and how they are counteracted, almost cathartic to read.


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## chrisd (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I take no political stance.
		
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You sure?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			You sure?
		
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If you can see a political stance in my post tell me.  I have simply reported a fact from the HoC yesterday and my understanding of a change since then (which may be unfounded I grant you) - and I have explained how I would be affected if it were true.


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## Slab (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not easy to comment about how we are impacted as individuals by the coronavirus as the impacts we experience largely come about through government policy.   But when we comment on a policy that is deemed 'political' - when in fact it only becomes 'political' when individuals take stances on it reflecting political positions - when in fact the only position that actually matters when discussing the impact on us is the position taken by the government.

As a result I should, for instance, be able to observe (without political comment or being accused of being political) on the furlough scheme as it might apply to a Scottish Lockdown. I can surely observe that in the HoC yesterday the PM confirmed to the Leader of the Scottish Conservatives that the furlough scheme in place for the English Lockdown will apply equally to any future Scottish lockdown.  But today I hear that there is some 'rowing back' on this.  Why does that matter to me?  Because some of my immediate family and relatives in Scotland could be severely impacted by a Scottish Lockdown...and they will depend upon government support.

And I should be able to express my concern about this and wonder why our government might not extend the 80% furlough scheme to a Scottish Lockdown - and I might wonder about how that would play with a Scottish electorate with Holyrood elections coming up in almost precisely 6 months time.   These are concerns and observations.  I take no political stance.

However i do recognise that the above might _generate _political discourse - discourse that I will not engage in - but it is surely that discourse that would be out of bounds...
		
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You can 'observe, express and comment' on all these things.... Just not on this forum,  there's loads of other outlets to use, crack on


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Slab said:



			You can 'observe, express and comment' on all these things.... Just not on this forum,  there's loads of other outlets to use, crack on
		
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The point I have made is that I would be impacted...and that is what the thread is about.  The Lockdown and Furlough payment impact all of us and result from policy made by a group of politicians.  Any comment on the impact is a comment on the result of policy made by politicians.  That does not make my comment political.


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## Slab (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The point I have made is that I would be impacted...and that is what the thread is about.
		
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I'm certain similar suitable threads exist elsewhere on the Internet, as much as you wish it to be, this one isn't it


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not easy to comment about how we are impacted as individuals by the coronavirus as the impacts we experience largely come about through government policy.   But when we comment on a policy that is deemed 'political' - when in fact it only becomes 'political' when individuals take stances on it reflecting political positions - when in fact the only position that actually matters when discussing the impact on us is the position taken by the government.

As a result I should, for instance, be able to observe (without political comment or being accused of being political) on the furlough scheme as it might apply to a Scottish Lockdown. I can surely observe that in the HoC yesterday the PM confirmed to the Leader of the Scottish Conservatives that the furlough scheme in place for the English Lockdown will apply equally to any future Scottish lockdown.  But today I hear that there is some 'rowing back' on this.  Why does that matter to me?  Because some of my immediate family and relatives in Scotland could be severely impacted by a Scottish Lockdown...and they will depend upon government support.

And I should be able to express my concern about this and wonder why our government might not extend the 80% furlough scheme to a Scottish Lockdown - and I might wonder about how that would play with a Scottish electorate with Holyrood elections coming up in almost precisely 6 months time.   These are concerns and observations.  I take no political stance.

However i do recognise that the above might _generate _political discourse - discourse that I will not engage in - but it is surely that discourse that would be out of bounds...
		
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I agree with pretty much all of what you are saying but do feel that if a comment, call it an observation if you want to play with semantics, is made, then irrespective of if you agree or disagree with the politics it is a political comment. By saying you have an opinion of how it hurts/helps you, you are making a political comment about the viability of how the policy works. Yes, absolutely as you say, we can't get away from the politics of it in so much as it impacts on us, and its a shame we can't discuss it but the referee has said we can't go there.

And it may well be that in some people's eyes your comment isn't political but, unfortunately, those comments are often a catalyst for an argument.

You could always do as I have done. I make my political comments on a different forum.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Actually, no, you are totally wrong and the title of the thread pretty much explains that. Not sure how a thread asking how it affect you and invites comments about personal experience can be interpreted as an invite to discuss how a country should manage a pandemic and that is not what this thread is about. It was set up for personal impacts of the pandemic and lockdown  and a place to express may be even more important over the next few weeks. You want to argue in general terms about lockdowns and policy I would say, firstly, that it is a political debate and so not permitted and, secondly, if you think it should be allowed then start a thread, lockdowns and policy, right or wrong.

Anyway, had my say and whilst I am always happy discuss matters, I will avoid the irony of taking the thread off track again by arguing about whether the thread has gone off track.
		
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How about suggesting you don't agree with my comment rather than proclaiming 'No, you are totally wrong' or qualifying by saying 'In your opinion'  Otherwise it comes over as bickering 😉


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## GB72 (Nov 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			How about suggesting you don't agree with my comment rather than proclaiming 'No, you are totally wrong' or qualifying by saying 'In your opinion'  Otherwise it comes over as bickering 😉
		
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Fair point, will take that one, could have been a bit less equivocal on that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I agree with pretty much all of what you are saying but do feel that if a comment, call it an observation if you want to play with semantics, is made, then irrespective of if you agree or disagree with the politics it is a political comment. By saying you have an opinion of how it hurts/helps you, you are making a political comment about the viability of how the policy works. Yes, absolutely as you say, we can't get away from the politics of it in so much as it impacts on us, and its a shame we can't discuss it but the referee has said we can't go there.

And it may well be that in some people's eyes your comment isn't political but, unfortunately, those comments are often a catalyst for an argument.

You could always do as I have done. I make my political comments on a different forum.
		
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Fair point about other forum but I am not interested in participating elsewhere - this is my one and only on-line family - you don't choose your family  And so I'll desist with my line of thinking.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not easy to comment about how we are impacted as individuals by the coronavirus as the impacts we experience largely come about through government policy.   But when we comment on a policy that is deemed 'political' - when in fact it only becomes 'political' when individuals take stances on it reflecting political positions - when in fact the only position that actually matters when discussing the impact on us is the position taken by the government.

As a result I should, for instance, be able to observe (without political comment or being accused of being political) on the furlough scheme as it might apply to a Scottish Lockdown. I can surely observe that in the HoC yesterday the PM confirmed to the Leader of the Scottish Conservatives that the furlough scheme in place for the English Lockdown will apply equally to any future Scottish lockdown.  But today I hear that there is some 'rowing back' on this.  Why does that matter to me?  Because some of my immediate family and relatives in Scotland could be severely impacted by a Scottish Lockdown...and they will depend upon government support.

And I should be able to express my concern about this and wonder why our government might not extend the 80% furlough scheme to a Scottish Lockdown - and I might wonder about how that would play with a Scottish electorate with Holyrood elections coming up in almost precisely 6 months time.   These are concerns and observations.  I take no political stance.

However i do recognise that the above might _generate _political discourse - discourse that I will not engage in - but it is surely that discourse that would be out of bounds...
		
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I'd call two political statements in that post, probably three. 

Please don't cause the thread to be closed, it's unnecessary.


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2020)

Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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Jeez. Layer upon layer of stress and worry there. Best wishes isn't quite enough but it's the best I can do.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Why if it is his opinion that's fine he does not have to defend it to anyone!!
		
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Privately, that would be fine. But if (s)he places it on an 'open' forum, (s)he's 'inviting' comment, or even a challenge! If a poster is not prepared for that, then my opinion is that they shouldn't post their opinion - at least not ! And I have no issue with folk placing different 'weights' to the same facts, thus perhaps forming a different opinion to mine.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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Bloody hell. Enough stress indeed. #1 and #3 should be fine. A C-section is relatively low risk. 

Has daughter #2 seen a neurologist?


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## Hobbit (Nov 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Bloody hell. Enough stress indeed. #1 and #3 should be fine. A C-section is relatively low risk.

Has daughter #2 seen a neurologist?
		
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Still waiting on Neurology. GP on her case - he has been fantastic! She's had MRI scans and an optomap scan - all clear. Opthamology think it might be MS.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Still waiting on Neurology. GP on her case - he has been fantastic! She's had MRI scans and an optomap scan - all clear. Opthamology think it might be MS.
		
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That would certainly be on the list of possible explanations, but there are a range of possibilities, so I hope it is something better rather than worse.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 3, 2020)

I’ve got it at the moment. Wife had a positive test last Friday so we’ve been isolating since then. Being relatively young & in good health I’m not especially bothered but there would be a fear of passing it on to someone who would be more vulnerable. it’s not stopped me working (from home) but it is unpleasant specially in the evening/night times. Fingers crossed it’s gone in a couple of days


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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It must be so stressful for you both not being there.  Hoping for the best outcomes for you all mate.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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I'm not religious but I'll say a wee prayer and keep my fingers crossed for you and your family mate


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## chellie (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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Brian, don't know what to say apart from this - thinking of you all.


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## Billysboots (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Still waiting on Neurology. GP on her case - he has been fantastic! She's had MRI scans and an optomap scan - all clear. Opthamology think it might be MS.
		
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We’ve never met beyond a shared interest on an anonymous forum, but your situation puts a lot of what is argued about here into painful perspective. I wish you all well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Heard this evening that our lad seems to have ’clicked’ with the CBT counsellor we’ve arranged for him. Had a first session and has arranged a second.   There was a big risk that he’d reject it as useless gobbledygook -  but it seems that his rock-bottom is deep and he understands it for what it basically is - and he knows he needs outside support to help him accept his situation and clear the mental blocks he has so that he can start develop the mindset that will enable him to move out of the dire straits he has found himself in due to the coronavirus.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard this evening that our lad seems to have ’clicked’ with the CBT counsellor we’ve arranged for him. Had a first session and has arranged a second.   There was a big risk that he’d reject it as useless gobbledygook -  but it seems that his rock-bottom is deep and he understands it for what it basically is - and he knows he needs outside support to help him accept his situation and clear the mental blocks he has so that he can start develop the mindset that will enable him to move out of the dire straits he has found himself in due to the coronavirus.
		
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First step is the hardest .
Hopefully now he can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Still a way to go though.
All the best to him.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 3, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			We’ve never met beyond a shared interest on an anonymous forum, but your situation puts a lot of what is argued about here into painful perspective. I wish you all well.
		
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Yes our first world problems pale into insignificance.


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## GB72 (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard this evening that our lad seems to have ’clicked’ with the CBT counsellor we’ve arranged for him. Had a first session and has arranged a second.   There was a big risk that he’d reject it as useless gobbledygook -  but it seems that his rock-bottom is deep and he understands it for what it basically is - and he knows he needs outside support to help him accept his situation and clear the mental blocks he has so that he can start develop the mindset that will enable him to move out of the dire straits he has found himself in due to the coronavirus.
		
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Great news. Took me years and much persuasion from my wife to get CBT help but so glad I took that first step


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## SaintHacker (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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I'm beyond angry tonight. Turns out some thoughtless selfish excuse for a parent has sent their child back into my son and daughters school today after the kid was ill over the holiday, and has had a positive result today. We're never going to beat this thing while morons like this are allowed to breed.

Anyway all the best to you and yours Brian, i hope things turn out well


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## chrisd (Nov 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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I know life was never meant to be easy, but flippin eck Brian, it was never meant to be this tough!


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not easy to comment about how we are impacted as individuals by the coronavirus as the impacts we experience largely come about through government policy.   But when we comment on a policy that is deemed 'political' - when in fact it only becomes 'political' when individuals take stances on it reflecting political positions - when in fact the only position that actually matters when discussing the impact on us is the position taken by the government.

As a result I should, for instance, be able to observe (without political comment or being accused of being political) on the furlough scheme as it might apply to a Scottish Lockdown. I can surely observe that in the HoC yesterday the PM confirmed to the Leader of the Scottish Conservatives that the furlough scheme in place for the English Lockdown will apply equally to any future Scottish lockdown.  But today I hear that there is some 'rowing back' on this.  Why does that matter to me?  Because some of my immediate family and relatives in Scotland could be severely impacted by a Scottish Lockdown...and they will depend upon government support.

And I should be able to express my concern about this and wonder why our government might not extend the 80% furlough scheme to a Scottish Lockdown - and I might wonder about how that would play with a Scottish electorate with Holyrood elections coming up in almost precisely 6 months time.   These are concerns and observations.  I take no political stance.

However i do recognise that the above might _generate _political discourse - discourse that I will not engage in - but it is surely that discourse that would be out of bounds...
		
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It is just not on to introduce much comment on government policy, including "expressing concern " about it, I.e disapproval of it, and then claim it is not being political!
It amounts to you giving an opinion of political decisions, mostly critical, and then saying you don't intend to talk about it politically..if others respond in the same vein
Just don't introduce the subject. It's political.


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## IainP (Nov 3, 2020)

Went to the supermarket tonight, they had the queuing barriers set out which I suppose I should have anticipated but still seemed a bit of a shock. It was quiet at this time but plenty of evidence the crazies had been in - lots of empty shelves 🤨
Thankfully as I was buying specifics and not panic hoarding I was able to buy everything I went for.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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Always read your posts with interest Bri  as they usually bring a degree of sanity or calm to a thread. But this one was a shocker. When you're up to your arse in crocodiles, it doesn't seem fair that someone lobs in another crocodile. The distance & separation can't be easy for you or B. Thinking of you and hoping for the best.


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## oxymoron (Nov 4, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2's sudden blindness hasn't really improved and is now compounded with motor control issues with her right leg and right arm + issues of bladder control. Add to that she is now self-isolating because her best buddy, who they met for coffee last week, has been diagnosed with Covid.... oh, and she has Lupus.

Daughter #1 is due to give birth in 2 weeks. Unfortunately a diagnosis of fibroids has meant she is now scheduled for a C-section.

Daughter #3, a primary school teacher, is having her Covid test this evening after one of her pupils tested positive for Covid.... oh, and she's due to give birth just after Christmas.

There's more than enough stress there without Covid travel restrictions, lockdowns and quarantines.
		
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Christ almighty you and your family are really having it rough and i wish you all the very best , i got great solace when my dad passed from the dementia thread so i really hope you can find 
an outlet for your stress as it needs to be vented .I am sure the members on here will be happy for you to blow off at us if it helps in some small way .  Makes all the petty bickering insignificant.

Good luck i  would like to think i speak for some (plenty) on here when i say our thoughts are with you at this difficult time


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2020)

Drats!  Thought I was being really clever yesterday afternoon buying something urgently required from our local Homebase prior to lockdown - to be informed by my wife that it will be staying open - but forgetting that I have some contact lenses to pick up from my optician - and _that _might now be closed


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## AmandaJR (Nov 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Drats!  Thought I was being really clever yesterday afternoon buying something urgently required from our local Homebase prior to lockdown - to be informed by my wife that it will be staying open - but forgetting that I have some contact lenses to pick up from my optician - and _that _might now be closed 

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Opticians staying open this time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Opticians staying open this time.
		
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Excellent - will pop in later...Ty


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## SatchFan (Nov 5, 2020)

B&Q open and my wife has just discovered an old to do list. Curses.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 5, 2020)

Shopped in Lidl today and pleased to see barely a sign of panic buying. Perhaps a bit less stock of toilet rolls but still plenty on the shelves.

In lockdown one we relied on home deliveries yet this time haven't felt the need. If we're anything to go by some of the fear factor has gone (mask wearing does help that) - in turn that may mean it's less effective.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 5, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Shopped in Lidl today and pleased to see barely a sign of panic buying. Perhaps a bit less stock of toilet rolls but still plenty on the shelves.

In lockdown one we relied on home deliveries yet this time haven't felt the need. If we're anything to go by some of the fear factor has gone (mask wearing does help that) - in turn that may mean it's less effective.
		
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We have been ordering via Waitrose home delivery but slots have become non-existent


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2020)

We will do our essential shops at one or other of two smaller supermarkets in centre of town - as we did during the first lockdown - we found that early evening they were pretty much empty...mind you we normally went to them as part of our early evening exercise/walk...we did comment back at the time that whilst it was OK queuing for a short while if we had to - it wouldn't be so great on a dark, cold or wet autumn/winter's evening.  We really didn't think that it would come to pass.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

Being told that cardiac procedures not going ahead in the SW unless you actually keel over is a bummer, doctor suggests that if the GTN spray doesn’t work, dial 999


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## Mudball (Nov 6, 2020)

was hoping to close a deal this month...  just got a note from the buyer that he is being furlonged...  there goes Q4 targets (like the yearly target)


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## AmandaJR (Nov 6, 2020)

So David has had a bit of man flu. No covid symptoms as such. Took a test just in case and both shocked it came back today as positive. I've a scratchy throat and slight dry cough so been for a drive thru test this afternoon. I feel really bad now that I went to Lidl yesterday. Wore a mask and sanitised hands etc but all the same...

So he's trying to self-isolate at home (from me!) whilst we await my test result.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Oh dear, hope he's OK and you somehow avoid it!
		
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I think stable door springs to mind but you never know! I'd seen on the club website that catering was impacted by self isolation requirements and the chef played with us last Saturday - I'm blaming him!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 6, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			So David has had a bit of man flu. No covid symptoms as such. Took a test just in case and both shocked it came back today as positive. I've a scratchy throat and slight dry cough so been for a drive thru test this afternoon. I feel really bad now that I went to Lidl yesterday. Wore a mask and sanitised hands etc but all the same...

So he's trying to self-isolate at home (from me!) whilst we await my test result.
		
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Had cold like symptoms last week. Put it down to just that but was asked to go for a test. Negative. Think it's going to be pain for a lot of our staff who have a genuine sniffle/cold and still get asked to test. I get the need to be careful and better safe than sorry but I am concerned on numbers if too many are put on medical suspension pending results


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## AmandaJR (Nov 6, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had cold like symptoms last week. Put it down to just that but was asked to go for a test. Negative. Think it's going to be pain for a lot of our staff who have a genuine sniffle/cold and still get asked to test. I get the need to be careful and better safe than sorry but I am concerned on numbers if too many are put on medical suspension pending results
		
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There's the conundrum. We were sure it wasn't covid as he had none of the recognised symptoms although having read more now the headache he had is a symptom but not one that gets asked when you book a test.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 6, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			There's the conundrum. We were sure it wasn't covid as he had none of the recognised symptoms although having read more now the headache he had is a symptom but not one that gets asked when you book a test.
		
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It is a problem. Of course we need our doctors and nurses to be fit and safe to deal with patients especially in an ICU environment but as we roll into flu/cold season where is the line? Do we test our staff at the first sniffle or cough (and then medically suspend until a negative result). Going to cause chaos with numbers and increase agency spend, put pressure on the regular staff and cause issues


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## IainP (Nov 6, 2020)

A little look over the Channel.
This morning's news
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...lt-weeks-ahead-as-predicts-lockdown-scenarios
Today they reported over 60K cases, and over 800 deaths for the second time this week 😕


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2020)

IainP said:



			A little look over the Channel.
This morning's news
https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...lt-weeks-ahead-as-predicts-lockdown-scenarios
Today they reported over 60K cases, and over 800 deaths for the second time this week 😕
		
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Highest weekly death count in Spain, in October, 388. This week, 1000.

Our little village had shown on or close to zero cases all through the spring lockdown. Currently at 76. ICU beds are at 50%, with 1 or 2 being added every day. 6pm to 6am lockdown mooted for next week. Essential travel only.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 6, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Highest weekly death count in Spain, in October, 388. This week, 1000.

Our little village had shown on or close to zero cases all through the spring lockdown. Currently at 76. ICU beds are at 50%, with 1 or 2 being added every day. 6pm to 6am lockdown mooted for next week. Essential travel only.
		
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Why do you think Spain has been hit so hard twice? It seems like they have had really harsh clampdown both times yet still the numbers have been and are bad. What's the thinking?


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## Hobbit (Nov 6, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why do you think Spain has been hit so hard twice? It seems like they have had really harsh clampdown both times yet still the numbers have been and are bad. What's the thinking?
		
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Poor management post-lockdown 1. The virus was still out there in those communities that suffered the most in LD1. When summer came and people travelled they took the virus to fresh fodder.

Mojacar, the nearest tourist haunt went from zero to 120 in the less than 2 weeks. More recently, we've had half term. Many northern Spanish have holiday homes down here - we're selling to a family from Barcelona - they come down here and it kicks off again. Locally, it started with 2 Peruvian families who travel around doing farm work. The farm worker shanty towns are rife with it.

Its a close contact/contact virus. The more people that move, the more the virus moves.


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## Fish (Nov 7, 2020)

Delivered into a few pharmacies inside supermarkets yesterday and there were no one-way systems, no security on the doors so stores were full, people crossing in isles, self service areas people were on top of each other, no spacing in queues, people grabbing trolley’s due to shortages that had just been used by others, the list of breaches was never ending! 

The cross contamination within supermarkets must be huge!


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

I'm hearing more and more that a vaccine will be rolled out on, or soon after, the 2nd of December


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## Fish (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm hearing more and more that a vaccine will be rolled out on, or soon after, the 2nd of December
		
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Can’t see it myself 🤔


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Fish said:



			Can’t see it myself 🤔
		
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Doctors have had emails asking them to prepare for that date


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm hearing more and more that a vaccine will be rolled out on, or soon after, the 2nd of December
		
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I doubt that.
Theres a distinct shortage of medical glass to put the vaccines in, and in some cases an 18 month lead time.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I doubt that.
Theres a distinct shortage of medical glass to put the vaccines in, and in some cases an 18 month lead time.
		
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It is a fact that doctors surgeries have been asked to prepare from that date


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2020)

Fish said:



			Delivered into a few pharmacies inside supermarkets yesterday and there were no one-way systems, no security on the doors so stores were full, people crossing in isles, self service areas people were on top of each other, no spacing in queues, people grabbing trolley’s due to shortages that had just been used by others, the list of breaches was never ending! 

The cross contamination within supermarkets must be huge!
		
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The one way systems were dropped when we changed to the 1 metre plus rule.  You're right that a lot don't seem to care about keeping any sort of distance , I patiently wait for someone to move along only for people to dive in behind me. Reaching for stuff over my head


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2020)

Assuming driving lessons and tests resume as planned on 2nd December we now have a few tweaks that have been made to the test. 
"One window on each side of the car WILL be open during the test. Wear suitable clothing"
So if it's blowing a gale and hammering down with rain you have to have windows open. Everybody and everything gets soaked, spectacle wearers will need wipers on their lenses, gloves will need to be wind and rain proof and let's just hope there isn't a lorry going the other way when you're doing 60.
Its not fair on the kids to keep putting tests back but its equally not fair to make them do it in circumstances that you wouldn't meet in real life. The extra clothing required (hats, gloves, coat, more layers) is bad enough but getting showered as well..?
3°C, raining and 20mph wind _ who drives for 40 minutes with windows open in that.? 
Kinda really hoping this vaccine comes soon......


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Assuming driving lessons and tests resume as planned on 2nd December we now have a few tweaks that have been made to the test. 
"One window on each side of the car WILL be open during the test. Wear suitable clothing"
So if it's blowing a gale and hammering down with rain you have to have windows open. Everybody and everything gets soaked, spectacle wearers will need wipers on their lenses, gloves will need to be wind and rain proof and let's just hope there isn't a lorry going the other way when you're doing 60.
Its not fair on the kids to keep putting tests back but its equally not fair to make them do it in circumstances that you wouldn't meet in real life. The extra clothing required (hats, gloves, coat, more layers) is bad enough but getting showered as well..?
3°C, raining and 20mph wind _ who drives for 40 minutes with windows open in that.? 
Kinda really hoping this vaccine comes soon......

Click to expand...

That does sound pretty crazy, maybe just get a fleet of convertibles 😂


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			That does sound pretty crazy, maybe just get a fleet of convertibles 😂
		
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Sadly most convertibles aren't suitable for the test due to compromised rear vision - Apparently


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It is a fact that doctors surgeries have been asked to prepare from that date
		
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It is, but it is rather unlikely there will be vaccine in December, and it appears that this news reached the media before it reached GPs, who need a bit of time to get organised, and not all of whom are happy to hear this job will be dropped on them for derisory payment without very much planning.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is, but it is rather unlikely there will be vaccine in December, and it appears that this news reached the media before it reached GPs, who need a bit of time to get organised, and not all of whom are happy to hear this job will be dropped on them for derisory payment without very much planning.
		
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I believe they are trying to decide whether all surgeries will roll it out or whether to offer it from certain ones in the hub.


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is, but it is rather unlikely there will be vaccine in December, and it appears that this news reached the media before it reached GPs, who need a bit of time to get organised, and not all of whom are happy to hear this job will be dropped on them for derisory payment without very much planning.
		
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Most of my friends who are GPs are dragging in £100k+. Why do they need more when its a marginal cost increase?


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## Beezerk (Nov 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Most of my friends who are GPs are dragging in £100k+. Why do they need more when its a marginal cost increase?
		
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It will be the nurses doing it anyway won't it?


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Most of my friends who are GPs are dragging in £100k+. Why do they need more when its a marginal cost increase?
		
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Where have you been for the last 30 years? The NHS doesn't do marginal cost any more. It prices procedures based on a market rate. Ask Boots if they will administer it for £12, the offered fee. Based on their pricing structure for Covid tests, I doubt it. 

If your GP friends are representative of the country's GPs, they will be desperately planning to retire, leave or emigrate (RLE has become a well recognised acronym in GP land now).


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2020)

Traminator said:



			It doesn't specify front windows.

So properly wrapped up, heaters on, back windows open wouldn't be a massive issue, apart from for the owner of the vehicle ☔.
		
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I have a Cactus
They only have pop out  acknowledgement windows, about 3 inches.
Pound to a penny they'll want both fronts open.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 7, 2020)

As Sweden was put back on the list of countries where people have to self isolate I have 2 weeks of sitting in our one bedroom flat to look forward to when I get back to the UK tomorrow. That’s gonna be enjoyable. 😬


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I have a Cactus
They only have pop out  acknowledgement windows, about 3 inches.
Pound to a penny they'll want both fronts open.
		
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What the heck is an “acknowledgment window” never heard that term before


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Assuming driving lessons and tests resume as planned on 2nd December we now have a few tweaks that have been made to the test.
"One window on each side of the car WILL be open during the test. Wear suitable clothing"
So if it's blowing a gale and hammering down with rain you have to have windows open. Everybody and everything gets soaked, spectacle wearers will need wipers on their lenses, gloves will need to be wind and rain proof and let's just hope there isn't a lorry going the other way when you're doing 60.
Its not fair on the kids to keep putting tests back but its equally not fair to make them do it in circumstances that you wouldn't meet in real life. The extra clothing required (hats, gloves, coat, more layers) is bad enough but getting showered as well..?
3°C, raining and 20mph wind _ who drives for 40 minutes with windows open in that.?
Kinda really hoping this vaccine comes soon......

Click to expand...

Thought you wore masks in the car, surely that negates the need for windows open? 🤷🏻‍♂️

My old gti window switches broke twice because of rain water settling in the button recess. They were £70 a time to replace.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 7, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			It will be the nurses doing it anyway won't it?
		
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Regardless of who gives the vaccine it’ll be the Doctors who’ll agree the terms.


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			What the heck is an “acknowledgment window” never heard that term before
		
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I honestly did not type anything resembling that word......
All I typed was pop out windows.
I think my tablet has C19...


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I honestly did not type anything resembling that word......
All I typed was pop out windows.
I think my tablet has C19...

Click to expand...

Phat Phingers 😂😂


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is, but it is rather unlikely there will be vaccine in December, and it appears that this news reached the media before it reached GPs, who need a bit of time to get organised, and not all of whom are happy to hear this job will be dropped on them for derisory payment without very much planning.
		
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The caveat being that all I know about this is what I am reading here, it does seem very good news on the face of it.
Your answer above does beg a question or two.
The fact that you as a medical man confirm Chris's news surely suggests the vaccine being available is imminent. How far from December do you suggest it is?
As for organised, I would have thought that provision of the vaccine to us would be similar to the way the flu vaccine was done by Drs practices.
The flu vaccine was offered to a certain age group and those vulnerable who medically qualified for it, wouldn't this be the same( in the first instance).?
The flu vaccine was administered pretty well in my neck of the woods, so why not do it the same way. In fact, the flu vaccine would have been a final rehaearsal for the Covid vaccine, you might say?
Why would there be a spat about extra payment to GPs to get this vaccine out? Compared with furloughing etc it would be peanuts, as well as I find it difficult for GPs on 100k to quibble about doing this service.
(How many on here, if they were GPs, would do this for nothing in order to rid the country of this scourge and the stranglehold it has on us in so many ways.
Almost all of us, I suggest)
Come on, this news must be a clear light at the end of a long tunnel.


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The caveat being that all I know about this is what I am reading here, it does seem very good news on the face of it.
Your answer above does beg a question or two.
The fact that you as a medical man confirm Chris's news surely suggests the vaccine being available is imminent. How far from December do you suggest it is?
As for organised, I would have thought that provision of the vaccine to us would be similar to the way the flu vaccine was done by Drs practices.
The flu vaccine was offered to a certain age group and those vulnerable who medically qualified for it, wouldn't this be the same( in the first instance).?
The flu vaccine was administered pretty well in my neck of the woods, so why not do it the same way. In fact, the flu vaccine would have been a final rehaearsal for the Covid vaccine, you might say?
Why would there be a spat about extra payment to GPs to get this vaccine out? Compared with furloughing etc it would be peanuts, as well as I find it difficult for GPs on 100k to quibble about doing this service.
(How many on here, if they were GPs, would do this for nothing in order to rid the country of this scourge and the stranglehold it has on us in so many ways.
Almost all of us, I suggest)
Come on, this news must be a clear light at the end of a long tunnel.
		
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Some of the clinical trials are likely to report very soon, and there are rolling reviews taking place, so a swift approval is possible. This side of Dec 31, the EMA approval still covers the UK, and I think they are good shape to act quickly. Manufacturing appears to be ahead of the game, so the rate limiting step will be distribution and administration. That is not a small task. The Pfizer vaccine, for example, needs -70 degree freezer storage, and may be 2 jabs, so double the work and organisation needed. I think early new year is more realistic, but I expect Govt will be doing everything they can to be able to say that they started administration before year end. It will take months rather than weeks to trickle down the age groups, though. Some employers may also be able to purchase private stocks and administer it through their Occupational Health departments.

I am not a GP, but GPs on doctors net (a popular social media site) are saying this was announced publicly before they were told and it isn't just as simple as flu vacc 2.0. GPs are not all on 100k, and many have been screwed for the last number of years over pensions and premises ownership. They are a bit fed up with diktats from HM Govt. The £12 for administering a new medicine is rather paltry compared to the daily rates thrown at management consultants to screw up test and trace.

"How many on here, if they were management consultants, would do this for nothing in order to rid the country of this scourge and the stranglehold it has on us in so many ways. Almost none of us, I suggest".

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation have issued guidelines for prioritisation, which will start with care home residents, frontline NHS and work down though age groups. The plans currently envisage vaccinating down as far as the 50+ age group.

Vaccines are clearly a highly important part of the Covid response, and I will be as near to the front of the queue as I can get.


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Regardless of who gives the vaccine it’ll be the Doctors who’ll agree the terms.

Click to expand...

That was the old days. The CCGs agree the terms now.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That was the old days. The CCGs agree the terms now.
		
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Not the Staff though.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Some of the clinical trials are likely to report very soon, and there are rolling reviews taking place, so a swift approval is possible. this side of Dec 31, the EMA approval still covers the UK, and I think they are grid shape to act quickly. Manufacturing appears to be ahead of the game, so the rate limiting step will be distribution and administration. That is not a small task. The Pfizer vaccine, for example, needs -70 degree freezer storage, and may be 2 jabs, so double the work and organisation needed. I think early new year is more realistic, but I expect Govt will be doing everything they can to be able to say that they started administration before year end. It will take months rather than weeks to trickle down the age groups, though. Some employers may also be able to purchase private stocks and administer it through their Occupational Health departments. 

I am not a GP, but GPs on doctors net (a popular social media site) are saying this was announced publicly before they were told and it isn't just as simple as flu vacc 2.0. GPs are not all on 100k, and many have been screwed for the last number of years over pensions and premises ownership. They are a bit fed up with diktats from HM Govt. The £12 for administering a new medicine is rather paltry compared to the daily rates thrown at management consultants to screw up test and trace.

"How many on here, if they were management consultants, would do this for nothing in order to rid the country of this scourge and the stranglehold it has on us in so many ways. Almost none of us, I suggest". 

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation have issued guidelines for prioritisation, which will start with care home residents, frontline NHS and work down though age groups. The plans currently envisage vaccinating down as far as the 50+ age group. 

Vaccines are clearly a highly important part of the Covid response, and I will be as near to the front of the queue as I can get.
		
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I pretty much agree with this Ethan - am I ill?😉😉

I was told that the storage was an issue due to the -70 needed and the £12 so at least my source of info was accurate


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I pretty much agree with this Ethan - am I ill?😉😉
		
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I think you should book a test just in case....


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

I



Imurg said:



			I think you should book a test just in case....
		
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It's funny, I bought a club off him at Bearwood Lakes and ever since I've started to agree with him 🤯


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## Imurg (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I

It's funny, I bought a club off him at Bearwood Lakes and ever since I've started to agree with him 🤯
		
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Maybe book 2...


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I

It's funny, I bought a club off him at Bearwood Lakes and ever since I've started to agree with him 🤯
		
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The nanobots I put in the grip are clearly working. You will start complaining about Brexit shortly.


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Where have you been for the last 30 years? The NHS doesn't do marginal cost any more. It prices procedures based on a market rate. Ask Boots if they will administer it for £12, the offered fee. Based on their pricing structure for Covid tests, I doubt it.

If your GP friends are representative of the country's GPs, they will be desperately planning to retire, leave or emigrate (RLE has become a well recognised acronym in GP land now).
		
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I'm sorry but you are off beam. You will be aware of the economics of marginal costing. Adding extra vaccinations will not add capital cost and will add minimal variable costs. 

I made no mention of NHS pricing system which is an entirely different cost accounting animal of which I have some knowledge. You don't need to always insert a 'put down' statement!


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm sorry but you are off beam. You will be aware of the economics of marginal costing. Adding extra vaccinations will not add capital cost and will add minimal variable costs.

I made no mention of NHS pricing system which is an entirely different cost accounting animal of which I have some knowledge. *You don't need to always insert a 'put down' statement!*

Click to expand...

Have you met Mr Kettle?

How much minimal variable costs do you think it will add, and is that staff time currently unused?


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The nanobots I put in the grip are clearly working. You will start complaining about Brexit shortly.
		
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You'd have to have put a whole lot more in to get that result 😁😁


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			You'd have to have put a whole lot more in to get that result 😁😁
		
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They are self replicating.


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## Hobbit (Nov 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm sorry but you are off beam. You will be aware of the economics of marginal costing. Adding extra vaccinations will not add capital cost and will add minimal variable costs.

I made no mention of NHS pricing system which is an entirely different cost accounting animal of which I have some knowledge. You don't need to always insert a 'put down' statement!
		
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Surely the vaccination is the capital cost, i.e. it will (almost) be a fixed price product. 10 vaccines will be £10, maybe less a discount for multiple units but still a multiple of the capital cost per unit.

The variable, controlled, cost is the number of staff on any give session.

You're the expert but product, bar discount, has always been a capital cost.


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Surely the vaccination is the capital cost, i.e. it will (almost) be a fixed price product. 10 vaccines will be £10, maybe less a discount for multiple units but still a multiple of the capital cost per unit.

The variable, controlled, cost is the number of staff on any give session.

You're the expert but product, bar discount, has always been a capital cost.
		
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And it is only variable cost if there is no need for additional staff. Serco don't do much work at marginal cost, though. And their capital costs are eye-watering. That appears to be a payment model the DoH is currently comfortable with.


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## robinthehood (Nov 7, 2020)

Got a call from the school, daughter has been in contact with confirmed case as has to stay off for 10 days.


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## drdel (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			And it is only variable cost if there is no need for additional staff. Serco don't do much work at marginal cost, though. And their capital costs are eye-watering. That appears to be a payment model the DoH is currently comfortable with.
		
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I really didn't mean to derail the thread. I was just addressing you suggestion that a GP would paid a derisory amount.

SERCO is a subcontracting solution and has no connection to cost changes in a GP practice.


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			I really didn't mean to derail the thread. I was just addressing you suggestion that a GP would paid a derisory amount.

SERCO is a subcontracting solution and has no connection to cost changes in a GP practice.
		
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Serco is many things, but rarely a solution to anything (yes, I know what you meant) but nevertheless are a good example of the Govt attitude towards funding stuff. GPs are contractors to the NHS, their fees should not be based on cost changes, and I invited you to elaborate on what you thought those might be, but the £12 offered for vaccination is a derisory sum. Lets see how much other parties in the process receive.


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## Billysboots (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm hearing more and more that a vaccine will be rolled out on, or soon after, the 2nd of December
		
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I know it’s “friend of a friend” stuff, but I’ve seen a text from someone who works in the civil service who has suggested the same. There’s another I’ve seen from someone in the NHS who has said the push to get flu vaccinations done early was, in part, because there needs to be a month between flu and coronavirus vaccinations.

I accept this may be wishful thinking, and I’m perhaps joining the dots to draw the picture I want to see, but I just got a sense when watching Boris last Saturday that he now sees an “out”, that being a vaccine.

I’m happy to look on the bright side. Anything else is just too depressing.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I know it’s “friend of a friend” stuff, but I’ve seen a text from someone who works in the civil service who has suggested the same. There’s another I’ve seen from someone in the NHS who has said the push to get flu vaccinations done early was, in part, because there needs to be a month between flu and coronavirus vaccinations.

I accept this may be wishful thinking, and I’m perhaps joining the dots to draw the picture I want to see, but I just got a sense when watching Boris last Saturday that he now sees an “out”, that being a vaccine.

I’m happy to look on the bright side. Anything else is just too depressing.
		
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I'm with you on that and hope that over 65's are high up the list to receive it


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I know it’s “friend of a friend” stuff, but I’ve seen a text from someone who works in the civil service who has suggested the same. There’s another I’ve seen from someone in the NHS who has said the push to get flu vaccinations done early was, in part, because *there needs to be a month between flu and coronavirus vaccinations.*

I accept this may be wishful thinking, and I’m perhaps joining the dots to draw the picture I want to see, but I just got a sense when watching Boris last Saturday that he now sees an “out”, that being a vaccine.

I’m happy to look on the bright side. Anything else is just too depressing.
		
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That is standard practice, although the type of vaccines in development for Covid vary and will interact with flu vaccine differently.

The rate limiting steps here are the release of data from the trials, the speed of regulatory authorities (probably quick), in our case EMA and MHRA (although they will be more or less synchronous) and then logistical rollout. Don't hold your breath waiting for a call from your GP unless you are getting on a bit because they will start with the most elderly and work down to us young people. NHS and care home staff vaccination will take place through workplace processes.

The two leading vaccine candidates, Pfizer/BioNtech and Oxford/Astra Zeneca were in development as 2 shot vaccinations, a month or so apart, which complicates the process a bit. It remains to be seen if the trial results suggest 2 shots are better than 1 or not.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm with you on that and hope that over 65's are high up the list to receive it
		
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Why are you worried about the over 65's, you'll get yours well before them


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## Billysboots (Nov 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is standard practice, although the type of vaccines in development for Covid vary and will interact with flu vaccine differently.

The rate limiting steps here are the release of data from the trials, the speed of regulatory authorities (probably quick), in our case EMA and MHRA (although they will be more or less synchronous) and then logistical rollout. Don't hold your breath waiting for a call from your GP unless you are getting on a bit bcaaseu they will start with the most elderly and work down to us young people. NHS and care home staff vaccination will take place through workplace processes.

The two leading vaccine candidates, Pfizer/BioNtech and Oxford/Astra Zeneca were in development as 2 shot vaccinations, a month or so apart, which complicates the process a bit. It remains to be seen if the trial results suggest 2 shots are better than 1 or not.
		
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I’m happy to wait my turn, primarily because I’m hoping my brush with Covid in the spring (I had a “strong” antibody response in June) means I still have a degree of T-cell immunity.

That said, I have very mild COPD so am still less than thrilled at the prospect of taking my chances with this virus, so will grasp the opportunity to have the vaccine with both hands the moment I’m offered it.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why are you worried about the over 65's, you'll get yours well before them 

Click to expand...

I'll see you in the queue 😁😁


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'll see you in the queue 😁😁
		
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You can't see that far behind you.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			You can't see that far behind you. 

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You are over 65 aren't you - after all you mentioned Peter Osgood to me and I barely remember him, so you must be very old


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## Ethan (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm with you on that and hope that over 65's are high up the list to receive it
		
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Fo golfe


Billysboots said:



			I’m happy to wait my turn, primarily because I’m hoping my brush with Covid in the spring (I had a “strong” antibody response in June) means *I still have a degree of T-cell immunity*.

That said, I have very mild COPD so am still less than thrilled at the prospect of taking my chances with this virus, so will grasp the opportunity to have the vaccine with both hands the moment I’m offered it.
		
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More than a degree, probably. Recent paper in Nature showed string T-cell immunity in all of a set of Covid-positive people they tested.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I believe they are trying to decide whether all surgeries will roll it out or whether to offer it from certain ones in the hub.
		
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In Scotland the flu jab was handled by NHS nurses in various locations  , not in doctors surgeries as in previous years.


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## chrisd (Nov 7, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			In Scotland the flu jab was handled by NHS nurses in various locations  , not in doctors surgeries as in previous years.
		
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Flu jbs at my surgery down here in the deep south east were done by nurses


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## williamalex1 (Nov 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Flu jbs at my surgery down here in the deep south east were done by nurses
		
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It was completely taken out of the local GPs hands, done directly by the NHS, not in local surgeries.
Just a thought do doctors actually charge a set price for giving every jab  ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 7, 2020)

Vaccine roll- out due to be starting December...apparently...and all being well...source - couple of very senior nursing professionals at major London hospitals.  Front line Covid19 NHS first along with care homes...

Aligns with updates on GPs getting notice to prepare posted by others.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 7, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			It was completely taken out of the local GPs hands, done directly by the NHS, not in local surgeries.
Just a thought do doctors actually charge a set price for giving every jab  ?
		
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Had mine at Boots


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## williamalex1 (Nov 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Vaccine roll- out due to be starting December...apparently...and all being well...source - couple of very senior nursing professionals at major London hospitals.  Front line Covid19 NHS first along with care homes...

Aligns with updates on GPs getting notice to prepare posted by others.
		
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Fingers and toes crossed then


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## williamalex1 (Nov 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Had mine at Boots
		
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Sadly not available in Boots or without boots in Scotland when i needed it.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 8, 2020)

So my test has come back as positive - boo. 

Quick question for @Ethan which may sound daft but...can we stop trying to self isolate from each other now we're both positive?! I guess I can't get it any worse by continuing to be exposed to someone else who has it once I have it?? Does virus load apply? David has developed a high temperature since yesterday and certainly feeling a bit rougher than he had been although not as rough as he felt on Wed/Thur. I've got a very slight cough but that's about it - and want it to stay that way!


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## road2ruin (Nov 8, 2020)

I’ve just read an article that suggests we should not be pinning all of our hopes on a vaccine given what is happening in Denmark at the moment with the mink. I won’t claim to be an expert in this and would welcome the comments from Ethan etc who have the background as to whether this is likely to be an issue longer term. 

Essentially the version of the virus that has been passed back to humans from the mink has muted and specially changes are within the Spike protein. Very early indications (and these are based on a VERY limited sample) are that this particular mink virus is not inhibited to the same degree by antibodies from humans with this version compared to those who have with the non-muted variant. 

The major problem if this is true is that the two most promising vaccines are specially directed against this Spike protein so any changes/mutations are likely to render the vaccines less effective should it get into the wider population. Apparently this version of the virus has been found in mink populations across 6 other countries so it is unlikely that this new strain is going to be contained. Plus, even if it was the chances are this will happen anyway just with a different animal. 

My question for those who are more knowledgeable on the subject, how much of an issue is the above if it turns out to be correct?


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## Ethan (Nov 8, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			So my test has come back as positive - boo.

Quick question for @Ethan which may sound daft but...can we stop trying to self isolate from each other now we're both positive?! I guess I can't get it any worse by continuing to be exposed to someone else who has it once I have it?? Does virus load apply? David has developed a high temperature since yesterday and certainly feeling a bit rougher than he had been although not as rough as he felt on Wed/Thur. I've got a very slight cough but that's about it - and want it to stay that way!
		
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Interesting question, and doesn't come up as often as it should!. I don't think there is a specific recommendation for this, but if you are both positive, I don't think either of you will make the others course any worse, so I think you are OK to mix again.


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## Ethan (Nov 8, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I’ve just read an article that suggests we should not be pinning all of our hopes on a vaccine given what is happening in Denmark at the moment with the mink. I won’t claim to be an expert in this and would welcome the comments from Ethan etc who have the background as to whether this is likely to be an issue longer term.

Essentially the version of the virus that has been passed back to humans from the mink has muted and specially changes are within the Spike protein. Very early indications (and these are based on a VERY limited sample) are that this particular mink virus is not inhibited to the same degree by antibodies from humans with this version compared to those who have with the non-muted variant.

The major problem if this is true is that the two most promising vaccines are specially directed against this Spike protein so any changes/mutations are likely to render the vaccines less effective should it get into the wider population. Apparently this version of the virus has been found in mink populations across 6 other countries so it is unlikely that this new strain is going to be contained. Plus, even if it was the chances are this will happen anyway just with a different animal.

My question for those who are more knowledgeable on the subject, how much of an issue is the above if it turns out to be correct?
		
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I saw this report, and some commentary on it from an Irish virologist. The gist is basically that it is too early to tell, but we shouldn't panic. We don't know that the mink mutation takes well in humans, because even though it has been observed since April, there appear to be few cases in humans, or that it has the same effect in humans. Even if it does, we shouldn't assume this would impact the efficacy of a vaccine.

There is going to be a lot of this sort of thing, some new mutation or a new symptoms that seems to be strongly associated with Covid. So far, none of it has altered the big picture, that avoiding getting it until a vaccine is available, is a good plan. 

As an aside, it is another (as if more were needed) argument against herd immunity. Letting the virus run free only increases the chances of mutations, and the more mutations that evolve, the greater the chance that there is one we have no answer for.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Interesting question, and doesn't come up as often as it should!. I don't think there is a specific recommendation for this, but if you are both positive, I don't think either of you will make the others course any worse, so I think you are OK to mix again.
		
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Thanks. I did Google it but couldn't find anything helpful and one way too technical paper for me!


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## chellie (Nov 8, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			So my test has come back as positive - boo.

Quick question for @Ethan which may sound daft but...can we stop trying to self isolate from each other now we're both positive?! I guess I can't get it any worse by continuing to be exposed to someone else who has it once I have it?? Does virus load apply? David has developed a high temperature since yesterday and certainly feeling a bit rougher than he had been although not as rough as he felt on Wed/Thur. I've got a very slight cough but that's about it - and want it to stay that way!
		
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Hope you both feel better soon Amanda.


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## Mudball (Nov 8, 2020)

Two families we know...  unfortunately both have thier 20 something kids hit by Covid.  One is holed up in London with his girlfriend and 6-7 flatmates - all infected.  Apparently picked up at dinner party.  in case of the other one, he picked it up at work and now being nursed at home.


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## Reemul (Nov 8, 2020)

Wife just had an email from her school, 6 year groups single form entry. Year 3 Teaching Assistance aged 21 has it, spent half term away partying (why post the stuff on Facebook) tested positive. Year 3 is now isolating but the knock on effect is massive.

Tomorrow my wife has a senco meeting for a young boy from year 3 who is going blind and will not live more than another 10 years. Year 3 teacher is involved, looks like it has to be cancelled, 3 weeks in the planning with massive work load and input from all parties. All buggered now.

At the park this morning 3 families all playing together with their kids, no distancing and just popped outside and watched my neighbour's get in to their friends car who has come to pick them up.

Exercise in frustration really, it won't get to where we need it to be and we are going to be living with continual lockdowns every month or so.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 8, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Got a call from the school, daughter has been in contact with confirmed case as has to stay off for 10 days.
		
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My mum got the call Friday that she had last been in contract with a confirmed case on Tuesday so isolate until 18th

Dad's free to leave the house 

Now my mum works 3 days a week. Tuesday thrus Friday 

We saw her briefly weds as she looks after our eldest after nursery on Wednesdays.... 

Haven't seen her since 

We don't have to isolate or anything unless she got symtoms by yesterday or something ...very confusing 

But she worried shes given it to our daughter 

I keep telling her it's such low risk because it's one day you worked with that child and you saw her outside as was nice day they played in their garden etc 

Plus my mum is super clean about everything 

But a worry none the less


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## AmandaJR (Nov 8, 2020)

The whole Track & Trace thing has kicked into gear but so many messages - many of which look exactly the same! Filling out the forms very clunky and no joining of the dots as I just had a call in relation to David's trace form but my positive test not registered against that. David has had the same about my positive test/trace form. Also a link to donate plasma which I was all over until right at the end when I had to put in the date my symptoms finished....ummm this email is about my positive test dated today.

Anyhow. I guess rather too much than too little but it could be a little overwhelming and stop people responding - especially as many will be feeling pretty rubbish.


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## robinthehood (Nov 8, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My mum got the call Friday that she had last been in contract with a confirmed case on Tuesday so isolate until 18th

Dad's free to leave the house 

Now my mum works 3 days a week. Tuesday thrus Friday 

We saw her briefly weds as she looks after our eldest after nursery on Wednesdays.... 

Haven't seen her since 

We don't have to isolate or anything unless she got symtoms by yesterday or something ...very confusing 

But she worried shes given it to our daughter 

I keep telling her it's such low risk because it's one day you worked with that child and you saw her outside as was nice day they played in their garden etc 

Plus my mum is super clean about everything 

But a worry none the less
		
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Yeah same sort of thing here , daughter to stay off till the 19th, no need for us to isolate as yet. Hopefully she didn't catch it. We don't know who the contact was , but we suspect its the teacher as she's been off and the front row of class have all been told to isolate.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 8, 2020)

Reemul said:



			Wife just had an email from her school, 6 year groups single form entry. Year 3 Teaching Assistance aged 21 has it, spent half term away partying (why post the stuff on Facebook) tested positive. Year 3 is now isolating but the knock on effect is massive.

Tomorrow my wife has a senco meeting for a young boy from year 3 who is going blind and will not live more than another 10 years. Year 3 teacher is involved, looks like it has to be cancelled, 3 weeks in the planning with massive work load and input from all parties. All buggered now.

At the park this morning 3 families all playing together with their kids, no distancing and just popped outside and watched my neighbour's get in to their friends car who has come to pick them up.

Exercise in frustration really, it won't get to where we need it to be and we are going to be living with continual lockdowns every month or so.
		
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God, this made me so angry. Country has far too many of these idiots,,
If that "partying" is true, then immediate dismissal.


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## Mudball (Nov 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			God, this made me so angry. Country has far too many of these idiots,,
*If that "partying" is true, then immediate dismissal.*

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Good luck with that in front of an appeal.. There is no contract with the school about not-partying. 
We dont know how many were at the Party..  what if it was a silent disco and everyone tested before hand.  

On the other hand... black mark in my register.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Good luck with that in front of an appeal.. There is no contract with the school about not-partying.
We dont know how many were at the Party..  what if it was a silent disco and everyone tested before hand. 

On the other hand... black mark in my register.
		
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Subject to all the facts, would not partying have been contrary to Covid rules, I.e the law?


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## Imurg (Nov 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Subject to all the facts, would not partying have been contrary to Covid rules, I.e the law?
		
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I get your argument but if everyone who has broken a "Covid" rule ( no matter how big or small) got the sack i suspect there wouldn't be many people left in employment.


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## Hobbit (Nov 8, 2020)

As of Tuesday A.M. Bars and restaurants will close at 6pm. Curfew to run from 10pm to 6am. Further, not allowed to travel beyond the confines of the town in which you live. Length of restriction; 15 days - note, 15 days is the longest it can be imposed because of Spanish law but there's no reason why it can't be sanctioned again at the end of the first 15 days, and repeat, as was the initial lockdown for mid March to mid May.


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## GB72 (Nov 8, 2020)

Quick question. If you test positive, how long are you meant to isolate for as not sure. Assume cannot be until the end of symptoms as can have them for months. Is it a set 14 days or are there criteria you have to meet to end isolation. Not got it but interested to know if the day comes


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## AmandaJR (Nov 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Quick question. If you test positive, how long are you meant to isolate for as not sure. Assume cannot be until the end of symptoms as can have them for months. Is it a set 14 days or are there criteria you have to meet to end isolation. Not got it but interested to know if the day comes
		
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10 days from first day of symptoms. Only thing that would lengthen that is if you still have a high temperature. Other symptoms do take longer to clear up.

I know that from my nice chat with the Track and Trace guy today!


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Good luck with that in front of an appeal.. *There is no contract with the school about not-partying.*
We dont know how many were at the Party..  what if it was a silent disco and everyone tested before hand. 

On the other hand... black mark in my register.
		
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Nothing about gross misconduct?


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## Mudball (Nov 8, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Nothing about gross misconduct?
		
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Genuine question... why?  assume it was not on school premises, or wearing a school uniform or snogging someone school related.   We are making an assumption that the infection happened at the party.  Is there a way to prove it?  
If I was Rudy Gulianni, i would say, she got it from school and so she should be suing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Good luck with that in front of an appeal.. There is no contract with the school about not-partying.
We dont know how many were at the Party..  what if it was a silent disco and everyone tested before hand. 

On the other hand... black mark in my register.
		
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Definitely can't see it being a dismissal offence but on the other hand, I don't think it'll do any promotion prospects any good.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 8, 2020)

People seem tone very lax about this ‘lockdown’ compared to the first.

Did a scientific test today!


Went  out for our walk today along an A Road, around 35 metres. During March April 38/40/ 40 cars passed during the distance walked. Today it was 82. Over 100% increase.

Take responsibility folks.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 8, 2020)

REally hope this news about the vaccine is true, it does seem to be stacking up with the government actions so far. However I can see pubs/restaurants etc staying closed well into the new year. Its obvious that its lengthy exposure in indoor settings that transmits the virus, so to keep schools open something has to give, this could well be the reason the JSS has been extended to March


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## Ethan (Nov 8, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			People seem tone very lax about this ‘lockdown’ compared to the first.

Did a scientific test today!


Went  out for our walk today along an A Road, around 35 metres. During March April 38/40/ 40 cars passed during the distance walked. Today it was 82. Over 100% increase.

Take responsibility folks.
		
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Same day of week, time of day, weather conditions? Need a lot more observations to draw a scientific conclusion. In any case, being in a car carries no risk of spreading Covid. it is what you do if and when you get out of the car that matters.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 8, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I get your argument but if everyone who has broken a "Covid" rule ( no matter how big or small) got the sack i suspect there wouldn't be many people left in employment.
		
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Excuses all the time for people now. Time the pendulum swung the other way.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Same day of week, time of day, weather conditions? Need a lot more observations to draw a scientific conclusion. In any case, being in a car carries no risk of spreading Covid. it is what you do if and when you get out of the car that matters.
		
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E
Sure you saw the !

It was a giveaway comment but for your info. similar  time of day,  no idea re other points you raised but appreciate your reply


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## backwoodsman (Nov 8, 2020)

Not really been out of the house since Wednesday so decided we'd go for our first walk to get some exercise. Went for a walk in Greenwich Park. My goodness there were *so* many people. Ok, I know that risk of transmission outside is pretty low but I know I'd have felt much more comfortable on the golf course with far fewer people. Only saying...


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## williamalex1 (Nov 8, 2020)

Depends who's in the said car, 1 household would be ok if staying within their own health board area, but 4 golfing pals would probably be a different matter .


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## Stuart_C (Nov 8, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Quick question. If you test positive, how long are you meant to isolate for as not sure. Assume cannot be until the end of symptoms as can have them for months. Is it a set 14 days or are there criteria you have to meet to end isolation. Not got it but interested to know if the day comes
		
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10 days from symptoms or positive test date, providing your symptom (temperature)  free for 48hrs. 

I know this as I've had the text today to say my isolation period ends at 23:59 tonight.


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## Ethan (Nov 9, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Depends who's in the said car, 1 household would be ok if staying within their own health board area, but 4 golfing pals would probably be a different matter .
		
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True. I was assuming a compliant carload.


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## road2ruin (Nov 9, 2020)

Some good news on the vaccine front, seems that Pfizer and BioNTech are there or there abouts.....as long as the mink don't put a spanner in the works!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54873105


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 9, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Genuine question... why?  assume it was not on school premises, or wearing a school uniform or snogging someone school related.   We are making an assumption that the infection happened at the party.  Is there a way to prove it?
If I was Rudy Gulianni, i would say, she got it from school and so she should be suing.
		
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Given that she has a duty of care to her charges, and assuming the normal level of stupidity from those who tend to post their antics on Faceache, partying all week in the current climate doesn't exactly sit well with that duty of care in my opinion.  In her position I believe she should be held to a higher standard.  

As it would be a civil rather than criminal case if it went anywhere, and as such the standard of proof is balance of probabilities rather than beyond all reasonable doubt, I'd say there's a good chance a case could be made in the current climate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2020)

Out for a walk yesterday we noted how busy the main road past town was when we crossed around 1:30pm.  A lot of traffic out there on essential business and individuals moving from one part of the country to another...first lockdown the road was basically empty.  

That said at the same time our local park was busy - I guess a lot of families staying local for a walk or to play in play-parks or simply passing time that would have been spent visiting others or in having Sunday lunch out...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2020)

Very hopeful news breaking from Pfizer on their vaccine...

[Edit] Ooops - wrong thread...


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## GB72 (Nov 9, 2020)

Roads were a lot quieter today than on Thursday and Friday. Can see people finishing off last week in the office before working from home this week.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 9, 2020)

Got back from Sweden yesterday and the tube was pretty much empty as I got on just before 9 pm. When I got off at Kings Cross to change lines I didn't see more than max 10 people as I was making my way to the Northern Line. That's not usually the case on a Sunday evening.


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## Mudball (Nov 9, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given that she has a duty of care to her charges, and assuming the normal level of stupidity from those who tend to post their antics on Faceache, partying all week in the current climate doesn't exactly sit well with that duty of care in my opinion.  In her position I believe she should be held to a higher standard. 

As it would be a civil rather than criminal case if it went anywhere, and as such the standard of proof is balance of probabilities rather than beyond all reasonable doubt, I'd say there's a good chance* a case could be made in the current climate*.
		
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I agree to higher standards... but equally, not sure it will stand up...  Some of our political masters (and their masters and dads) have broken the spirit of lockdown a few times. So i would argue it will be difficult to dismiss.  I agree with Homer's point that, the optics are not good and it will affect promotion chances.   BTW, i am assuming the facebook pics would have been taken down by now.


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## Beezerk (Nov 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Roads were a lot quieter today than on Thursday and Friday. Can see people finishing off last week in the office before working from home this week.
		
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Yeah definitely noticed it this morning, even at rush hour is wasn't too bad.


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2020)

Our 3 weekly big shopping trip today, and bearing in mind tomorrow sees the start of the municipality lockdown. Basically, you can't leave the town you live in, which isn't great if you live in a village.

Spanish supermarket - slightly busier than usual. Normal number of tills open. No problem getting anything, no bear shelves.
Iceland - totally rammed. Probably 20-30 cars in the overspill, usually none. A number of empty shelves, and lots of mutterings. Double the number of tills normally open, and queuing like I've never seen in there.

Brits panic buying.


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## Italian outcast (Nov 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Our 3 weekly big shopping trip today, and bearing in mind tomorrow sees the start of the municipality lockdown. Basically, you can't leave the town you live in, which isn't great if you live in a village.

Spanish supermarket - slightly busier than usual. Normal number of tills open. No problem getting anything, no bear shelves.
Iceland - totally rammed. Probably 20-30 cars in the overspill, usually none. A number of empty shelves, and lots of mutterings. Double the number of tills normally open, and queuing like I've never seen in there.

Brits panic buying.
		
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Hope you got your Black Forest Gateauxxxxs


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## Hobbit (Nov 9, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			Hope you got your Black Forest Gateauxxxxs 

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Couldn't pass up on the deal on boxes of Malteasers!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Couldn't pass up on the deal on boxes of Malteasers!
		
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I'd have already eaten them by now


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## Fish (Nov 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Roads were a lot quieter today than on Thursday and Friday. Can see people finishing off last week in the office before working from home this week.
		
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Beezerk said:



			Yeah definitely noticed it this morning, even at rush hour is wasn't too bad.
		
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I didn’t, long delays getting into Birmingham, then very busy on M40 and bumper to bumper getting off at J9 and onto the A34 which was solid until I got past the M4, then it eased, but then busy again through Southampton and even busier in Poole! 

Horrendous rain all the way back, and again traffic was pretty much the same as when I do that journey when not in a lockdown. 

With people furloughed, and not many taking notice of essential travel, there’s more traffic on the roads imo.


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## Beezerk (Nov 10, 2020)

Interesting talking to a colleague this morning, his daughter works in genetics at a Liverpool hospital and she has seen the results of the recent testing in the area. Of the 23,000 tested 0.7% came back as positive, interestingly only about 1/3 of those had showed symptoms. 
The 100,000 figure which seems to be used that makes it 700/100,000, is that not even higher than when Liverpool went into tier 3?


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## GB72 (Nov 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Interesting talking to a colleague this morning, his daughter works in genetics at a Liverpool hospital and she has seen the results of the recent testing in the area. Of the 23,000 tested 0.7% came back as positive, interestingly only about 1/3 of those had showed symptoms.
The 100,000 figure which seems to be used that makes it 700/100,000, is that not even higher than when Liverpool went into tier 3?
		
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I guess that this will always be the issue. As long as people can be asymptomatic we are rarely going to have any idea as to how many people have it or have had it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 10, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Interesting talking to a colleague this morning, his daughter works in genetics at a Liverpool hospital and she has seen the results of the recent testing in the area. Of the 23,000 tested 0.7% came back as positive, interestingly only about 1/3 of those had showed symptoms.
The 100,000 figure which seems to be used that makes it 700/100,000, is that not even higher than when Liverpool went into tier 3?
		
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We are in the same boat, youngest in first year at university. Of all of my daughters friends, either at her university or her school friends scattered around the country, she only knows 2 who tested positive having shown symptons. The pile on the other side who tested positive, had a test because their flatmate did but didn't show symptons far outweighs those. Those figures in Liverpool mirror the Northumbria situation about 2 weeks in.

They are going to test students before the end of term so that any who are positive can isolate before returning home. I reckon most 1st years will have had it by December, whether they realise or not.


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## fundy (Nov 10, 2020)

People who would rather park on verges, pavement, across other peoples drives, double park, block the road in their oversized SUVs rather than pay 70p for a whole days parking in the almost empty car park 50 yards away


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 10, 2020)

fundy said:



			People who would rather park on verges, pavement, across other peoples drives, double park, block the road in their oversized SUVs rather than pay 70p for a whole days parking in the almost empty car park 50 yards away
		
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...that's a 'random irritation' but one that I share...especially when the 'parked in' space is tight and/or awkward and the driver is incompetent and ends up parking such that they are a bleedin' nuisance to other drivers and/or pedestrians.


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## fundy (Nov 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...that's a 'random irritation' but one that I share...especially when the 'parked in' space is tight and/or awkward and the driver is incompetent and ends up parking such that they are a bleedin' nuisance to other drivers and/or pedestrians.
		
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yup wrong thread


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## Whereditgo (Nov 10, 2020)

Partners son was sent home from school today to self isolate for 14 days owing to close contact with a pupil who has tested positive. 

There is now an ongoing debate as to whether or not he will be able to move between his dads and our place as there is a joint parenting arrangement  My view is that if he is self isolating he should stay in one household - but that has been countered with the guidance caveat regarding children of parents who live apart.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 10, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Partners son was sent home from school today to self isolate for 14 days owing to close contact with a pupil who has tested positive.

There is now an ongoing debate as to whether or not he will be able to move between his dads and our place as there is a joint parenting arrangement  My view is that if he is self isolating he should stay in one household - but that has been countered with the guidance caveat regarding children of parents who live apart.
		
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Year 10 pupil at HID's school sent home positive along with a teacher. All of year 10 and 11 (year 11 in contact with teacher) all sent home. Seems a lot of the teachers are angling for working from home now


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## Reemul (Nov 10, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Year 10 pupil at HID's school sent home positive along with a teacher. All of year 10 and 11 (year 11 in contact with teacher) all sent home. Seems a lot of the teachers are angling for working from home now
		
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What's a lot? My wife's school has year 3 in lockdown from this Monday, 7 adults self isolating none of the teachers in her school want to work from home, is that a lot then?


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## drdel (Nov 10, 2020)

Reemul said:



			What's a lot? My wife's school has year 3 in lockdown from this Monday, 7 adults self isolating none of the teachers in her school want to work from home, is that a lot then?
		
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À lot is twice as many as normal.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 10, 2020)

Reemul said:



			What's a lot? My wife's school has year 3 in lockdown from this Monday, 7 adults self isolating none of the teachers in her school want to work from home, is that a lot then?
		
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Small potatoe, my sister's school has been poor with covid 

They closed all but year six last week 

This week entire school lol
.

Awful


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

Cases in the Devon & Cornwall according to the BBC info growing faster than rest of England having been fairly low in COVID 1 yet no mass testing for the area.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 10, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Cases in the Devon & Cornwall according to the BBC info growing faster than rest of England having been fairly low in COVID 1 yet no mass testing for the area.
		
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Lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind. 

I'm not disputing it and don't know the stats behind it but if Devon and Cornwall have gone from 4 cases per 100000 to 12 cases per 100000 then new cases are growing by 200%. If Liverpool has gone from 800 cases per 100000 to 1000 cases per 100000 then cases are only growing by 25%. Therefore Devon and Cornwall are growing faster even though it's still at a very low level.

Need to look at the full picture with all the details.


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind.

I'm not disputing it and don't know the stats behind it but if Devon and Cornwall have gone from 4 cases per 100000 to 12 cases per 100000 then new cases are growing by 200%. If Liverpool has gone from 800 cases per 100000 to 1000 cases per 100000 then cases are only growing by 25%. Therefore Devon and Cornwall are growing faster even though it's still at a very low level.

Need to look at the full picture with all the details.
		
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Wish it was just 12 cases


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## Fade and Die (Nov 10, 2020)

Just snapped this from news at 10. Does it mean that if you are knocked down by a bus on your way home after a positive test you get recorded as a COVID death??


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Just snapped this from news at 10. Does it mean that if you are knocked down by a bus on your way home after a positive test you get recorded as a COVID death??
View attachment 33490

Click to expand...

Seems -yes.


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Just snapped this from news at 10. Does it mean that if you are knocked down by a bus on your way home after a positive test you get recorded as a COVID death??
View attachment 33490

Click to expand...

Wow, were there a lot of people with positive Covid tests hit by buses today?

I am sure you know that (a) the reason for this definition is to allow comparisons over time without biased interpretations creeping in, and (b) the background death rate from other causes is a 28 day period is actually pretty low and effectively can be disregarded. Even if it is a little bit over inclusive, there are also people who die from Covid who don't have a test.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Just snapped this from news at 10. Does it mean that if you are knocked down by a bus on your way home after a positive test you get recorded as a COVID death??
View attachment 33490

Click to expand...

It's said that for months now. Do try and keep up at the back 😁


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## IainP (Nov 10, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Just snapped this from news at 10. Does it mean that if you are knocked down by a bus on your way home after a positive test you get recorded as a COVID death??
		
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I recall a bit of a debate about this back in spring, along the lines of - do you really want a load of clinicians/professionals spending a whole load of time debating each case and coming up with a most probable cause, or have them treating people. Obviously your bus example is an extreme.
It's why reputable news items do caveat that comparing stats between countries can be misleading due to differing methods/rules. I think Germany was an example of doing things quite differently, and Belgium were possibly even more "inclusive" than the UK.
There are plenty of graphs of "deaths compared to typical" which can giveva different way of looking at it.
E.g.
https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/stati...lance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html


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## Fade and Die (Nov 11, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			It's said that for months now. Do try and keep up at the back 😁
		
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Tbh I avoid the news as its just full of unnecessary scaremongering, when I read that I was surprised. Seems to just undermine the figure.


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## Billysboots (Nov 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Small potatoe, my sister's school has been poor with covid

They closed all but year six last week

This week entire school lol
.

Awful
		
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I do wish there was some consistency with the schools.

My daughter is in Year 10 at college. Early on, entire years were being sent home to self isolate in the event of a single positive test in that year.

Now, all years are regarded as a “bubble” and every lesson has a seating plan. If there is a positive test, initially the whole year is sent home, but within 24 hours the college have worked their own track and trace system, and identified those close contacts who need to remain at home. Everyone else is back to college.

It strikes me that, whilst some schools are working hard to keep kids in a face to face learning environment, others are being deliberately obtuse in what seems a clear attempt to get schools and colleges closed.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 11, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I do wish there was some consistency with the schools.

My daughter is in Year 10 at college. Early on, entire years were being sent home to self isolate in the event of a single positive test in that year.

Now, all years are regarded as a “bubble” and every lesson has a seating plan. If there is a positive test, initially the whole year is sent home, but within 24 hours the college have worked their own track and trace system, and identified those close contacts who need to remain at home. Everyone else is back to college.

It strikes me that, whilst some schools are working hard to keep kids in a face to face learning environment, others are being deliberately obtuse in what seems a clear attempt to get schools and colleges closed.
		
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See my mums school is secondary. She's isolating now .. whole bubble off etc 

Shes calling her students and they all isolating doing their work taking it serious


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 11, 2020)

Had a total of 12 positive cases at work. 6 returned, 6 currently off. Sectioned off area on the team whiteboard called “covid corner” which your name is wrote in. On return cakes must be bought in.


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## Fish (Nov 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Wow, were there a lot of people with positive Covid tests hit by buses today?

I am sure you know that (a) the reason for this definition is to allow comparisons over time without biased interpretations creeping in, and (b) the background death rate from other causes is a 28 day period is actually pretty low and effectively can be disregarded. Even if it is a little bit over inclusive, there are also people who die from Covid who don't have a test.
		
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I was told once that if an autopsy was done on all males that had died of natural causes, a very high percentage would all show/display bowel cancer, but they didn’t know they had it and they didn’t die of cancer! 

Are these Covid figures in a similar vain?


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## IainP (Nov 11, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Small potatoe, my sister's school has been poor with covid

They closed all but year six last week

This week entire school lol
.

Awful
		
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Sorry, off topic, but the post jogged my memory, made my smile, and then felt old 🤨
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/64689/never-forget-time-dan-quayle-misspelled-potato


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## Ethan (Nov 11, 2020)

Fish said:



			I was told once that if an autopsy was done on all males that had died of natural causes, a very high percentage would all show/display bowel cancer, but they didn’t know they had it and they didn’t die of cancer!

Are these Covid figures in a similar vain?
		
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No. 

People are confusing the running count of cases, which requires a stable and consistent definition to have any meaning, with the process of death certification. If someone tested positive for Covid 27 days ago and was hit by a block of ice falling from a jumbo jet, the death certificate would not include Covid. Very few people die from another cause within 28 days of a positive test.


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## Fish (Nov 11, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No.

People are confusing the running count of cases, which requires a stable and consistent definition to have any meaning, with the process of death certification. If someone tested positive for Covid 27 days ago and was hit by a block of ice falling from a jumbo jet, the death certificate would not include Covid. Very few people die from another cause within 28 days of a positive test.
		
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Ok, I thought that would be the case, however, how many times on the news do we hear, when somebody known passes, that they had recently been tested as positive with Covid, inferring that they died of it, but obviously hadn’t!


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 11, 2020)

50,000 UK deaths.
I recall all the insults I received from a few flat earth posters on here 6 months ago when I suggested at least 20,000 will die unless the authorities changed direction.
Sad times.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			50,000 UK deaths.
I recall all the insults I received from a few flat earth posters on here 6 months ago when I suggested at least 20,000 will die unless the authorities changed direction.
Sad times.
		
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Remember that for flat earthers there is no horizon and so for them there is nothing to see over...if they can't see it it doesn't exist.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 11, 2020)

Things taken a turn for the worse in work. Now back to a hot zone exclusive to Covid. Other areas now getting to capacity and it seems to be ramping up quickly just like last time when it went from nothing to taking over theatres. The next few days may be "interesting"


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## Ethan (Nov 11, 2020)

Fish said:



			Ok, I thought that would be the case, however, how many times on the news do we hear, when somebody known passes, that they had recently been tested as positive with Covid, inferring that they died of it, but obviously hadn’t!
		
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Not very often. But remember that it is perfectly possible that if someone was in hospital with Covid, got home but had a stroke or heart attack a couple of weeks later, it was still due to Covid as one of the features is this persisting inflammatory syndrome which affects major organs and the circulation. The vast majority of Covid deaths happen in the acute episode, though. These systems are never foolproof, but the odd weird case doesn't really affect the basic validity of it.

Some saw a report by the US CDC which said that 90% of people who died from/with Covid had one or more co-morbidities, and pretty soon Facebook had loads of posts screaming that CDC said that less than 10% actually died of Covid, which was either a deliberate misreading or basic scientific illiteracy. There aren't too many of us who remember persimmon woods who don't have a co-morbidity or two, but most of us will last a good bit longer if Covid allows.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			50,000 UK deaths.
I recall all the insults I received from a few flat earth posters on here 6 months ago when I suggested at least 20,000 will die unless the authorities changed direction.
*Sad times*.
		
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Aye but not *too* sad for you to post some sort of inappropriate smug "I told you so" post eh?...Sad times indeed.


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## Ethan (Nov 11, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Things taken a turn for the worse in work. Now back to a hot zone exclusive to Covid. Other areas now getting to capacity and it seems to be ramping up quickly just like last time when it went from nothing to taking over theatres. The next few days may be "interesting"
		
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Another few weeks to go, I think. It will be very dicey to allow much of a step down on Dec 2nd. I bet they who must not be mentioned are wishing they had jumped sooner, would have given more of a runway.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 11, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			50,000 UK deaths.
I recall all the insults I received from a few flat earth posters on here 6 months ago when I suggested at least 20,000 will die unless the authorities changed direction.
Sad times.
		
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Why would someone post a “I told you so ” because of a death level ? Taking scoring points to new low


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2020)

Fish said:



			I was told once that if an autopsy was done on all males that had died of natural causes, a very high percentage would all show/display bowel cancer, but they didn’t know they had it and they didn’t die of cancer!

Are these Covid figures in a similar vain?
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be taking the view that the death rate for Covid is an exaggeration by the authorities and as such there isn't really a problem.

Why would the authorities want to do this, what advantages does it give them?   Would you suggest it's some kind of plan to take more control of us for some reason, is the real reason to start vaccination to implant microchips into us, is a tinfoil hat the gateway to enlightenment.

Just asking.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2020)

Sitting here in an ill fitting t-shirt, weird sock things and a face mask as part of the research into training dogs to sniff out Covid. Next step is to donate Plasma if they'll take it...might as well make some positives about catching the bloody virus!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Sitting here in an ill fitting t-shirt, weird sock things and a face mask as part of the research into training dogs to sniff out Covid. Next step is to donate Plasma if they'll take it...might as well make some positives about catching the bloody virus!
		
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Think we definitely need pictures of those "weird" socks


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Think we definitely need pictures of those "weird" socks
		
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They're sort of tights for feet!


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			They're sort of tights for feet!
		
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Compression socks?

My daughter used to work weekends at a kennels up here. The lady who ran it had her own labs, 9 at the last count. One had a litter in the summer and two are now being trialled as Covid sniffer dogs at Durham University. If you are going to be sniffed by any dog a black lab is not the worst


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## Ethan (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Sitting here in an ill fitting t-shirt, weird sock things and a face mask as part of the research into training dogs to sniff out Covid. Next step is to donate Plasma if they'll take it...might as well make some positives about catching the bloody virus!
		
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That sounds like fetish wear if ever I heard it.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Compression socks?

My daughter used to work weekends at a kennels up here. The lady who ran it had her own labs, 9 at the last count. One had a litter in the summer and two are now being trialled as Covid sniffer dogs at Durham University. If you are going to be sniffed by any dog a black lab is not the worst 

Click to expand...

No they're like the feet of tights but no legs in them - weird.

The study is a combined effort with Durham, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and Medical Detection Dogs. It would be a very useful tool at airports if they could identify incoming passengers with the virus.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That sounds like fetish wear if ever I heard it.
		
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Ha ha ha - have I been scammed!!


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## Imurg (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Ha ha ha - have I been scammed!!
		
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No..Busted


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Ha ha ha - have I been scammed!!
		
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Possibly not but you've definitely put your foot in it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Possibly not but you've definitely put your foot in it
		
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I see what you just did there 👍😍


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2020)

drdel said:



			Possibly not but you've definitely put your foot in it
		
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I need to be careful not to put my toe through them! Me and tights were never a good match.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Aye but not *too* sad for you to post some sort of inappropriate smug "I told you so" post eh?...Sad times indeed.
		
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Surely the point is not so much DfTs 'I told you so' - but that many disparaged and bad-mouthed those who suggested that it was possible - if not likely...and cast such a suggestion as yet another 'project fear'.  And yet here we are - over 50,000 deaths with little explanation or apology from those who did the disparaging about what they got wrong   Because we in England are in a lockdown as a result...a lockdown that affects us all to one degree or another - and we must learn from what went wrong that has got us here - as you said - sad times indeed.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That sounds like fetish wear if ever I heard it.
		
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thoughts on this Ethan would be appreciated, taken from sky news today.

Quote,
When in January this year Professor Sahin came across a scientific paper on a coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China, it struck him how similar his antibody drugs for cancer were to those needed for potential viral vaccines.


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely the point is not so much DfTs 'I told you so' - but that many disparaged and bad-mouthed those who suggested that it was possible - if not likely...and cast such a suggestion as yet another 'project fear'.  And yet here we are - over 50,000 deaths with little explanation or apology from those who did the disparaging about what they got wrong   Because we in England are in a lockdown as a result...a lockdown that affects us all to one degree or another - and we must learn from what went wrong that has got us here - as you said - sad times indeed.
		
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I think it is absolutely about DFT's "I told you so" its extremely distasteful, and as LP'S earlier posted "takes scoring points to a new low" . Maybe the people who need to apologise are the ones who didnt follow the rules !


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I think it is absolutely about DFT's "I told you so" its extremely distasteful, and as LP'S earlier post "takes scoring points to a new low"  with also . Maybe the people who need to apologise are the ones who didnt follow the rules !
		
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OK - put that aside and the point remains about the disparaging and dismissing that some did - some of it being directed at specific individuals - and so it has come to pass...And if it is all us - Joe Public - who are at fault then let's hear it from those who made such remarks.

As far as 'extremely distasteful' and a 'new low'.  Well some might think so - others might think it's only pointing out the truth of what was said.  That what was said might have had an influence on many of us Joe Public that caused some of us to act and not follow the rules as we might have had the dismissals not been so vocal.  And remember - it wasn't DfT who spoke the warnings back then...


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - put that aside and the point remains about the disparaging and dismissing that some did - some of it being directed at specific individuals - and so it has come to pass...And if it is all us - Joe Public - who are at fault then let's hear it from those who made such remarks.

As far as 'extremely distasteful' and a 'new low'.  Well some might think so - others might think it's only pointing out the truth of what was said.  That what was said might have had an influence on many of us Joe Public that caused some of us to act and not follow the rules as we might have had the dismissals not been so vocal.
		
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Pot and kettle comes to mind


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Pot and kettle comes to mind
		
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Sorry - don't follow.


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - don't follow.
		
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Of course you don't


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## Ethan (Nov 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			thoughts on this Ethan would be appreciated, taken from sky news today.

Quote,
When in January this year Professor Sahin came across a scientific paper on a coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan, China, it struck him how similar his antibody drugs for cancer were to those needed for potential viral vaccines.
		
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His drugs aren't antibody drugs. They are RNA drugs which deliver small pieces of genetic code to perform certain actions. In some cases, these sorts of drug block development of unwanted proteins, but in the case of the Covid vaccine, to promote development of a protein (the Covid antibody) by introducing the genetic code for a key part of the protein spike of the virus which will trigger an immune response. The specific use of this as a "vaccine" is news, but the general principle has already been established. 

A lot of the pathological processes in cancer cells are similar to processes that happen in immunological diseases, so similar drugs are now used across a wide range of conditions. It didn't use to be that way, when oncology drugs were quite distinct from most others, but as understanding of disease processes have improved, more elegant treatments with fewer side effects have come through.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - put that aside and the point remains about the disparaging and dismissing that some did - some of it being directed at specific individuals - and so it has come to pass...And if it is all us - Joe Public - who are at fault then let's hear it from those who made such remarks.

As far as 'extremely distasteful' and a 'new low'.  Well some might think so - others might think it's only pointing out the truth of what was said.  That what was said might have had an influence on many of us Joe Public that caused some of us to act and not follow the rules as we might have had the dismissals not been so vocal.  And remember - it wasn't DfT who spoke the warnings back then...
		
Click to expand...

Did this actually happen or is it a figment of your and DFTs imagination. I can't recall anyone calling him down for forecasting 50K Covid deaths earlier in the year, I recall the Scientists suggesting a possible 500K if we used Herd Immunity.

I am happy to be proven wrong here so how about pulling up some proof of these allegations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Did this actually happen or is it a figment of your and DFTs imagination. I can't recall anyone calling him down for forecasting 50K Covid deaths earlier in the year, I recall the Scientists suggesting a possible 500K if we used Herd Immunity.

I am happy to be proven wrong here so how about pulling up some proof of these allegations.
		
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I haven't looked very hard...

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/ne...an-blasts-governments-scaremongering-18974560

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tty-Vallances-doomsday-prediction-50-000.html


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## Tashyboy (Nov 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			His drugs aren't antibody drugs. They are RNA drugs which deliver small pieces of genetic code to perform certain actions. In some cases, these sorts of drug block development of unwanted proteins, but in the case of the Covid vaccine, to promote development of a protein (the Covid antibody) by introducing the genetic code for a key part of the protein spike of the virus which will trigger an immune response. The specific use of this as a "vaccine" is news, but the general principle has already been established.

A lot of the pathological processes in cancer cells are similar to processes that happen in immunological diseases, so similar drugs are now used across a wide range of conditions. It didn't use to be that way, when oncology drugs were quite distinct from most others, but as understanding of disease processes have improved, more elegant treatments with fewer side effects have come through.
		
Click to expand...

cheers me man, mentioned it to Missis T but she didn’t have a clue.


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## Ethan (Nov 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			cheers me man, mentioned it to Missis T but she didn’t have a clue.
		
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Oh, and I think Sahin and his wife are rock stars. They have created this company from nothing, developed a great technology and apparently they still live modestly - he cycles to work - despite their company now being very valuable.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - put that aside and the point remains about the disparaging and dismissing that some did - some of it being directed at specific individuals - and so it has come to pass...And if it is all us - Joe Public - who are at fault then let's hear it from those who made such remarks.

As far as 'extremely distasteful' and a 'new low'.  Well some might think so - others might think it's only pointing out the truth of what was said.  That what was said might have had an influence on many of us Joe Public that caused some of us to act and not follow the rules as we might have had the dismissals not been so vocal.  And remember - it wasn't DfT who spoke the warnings back then...
		
Click to expand...

When This Covid first struck Tash was laid up in Mexico. Seeing what was going off in this country from afar was eye opening people did not give a hoot. It almost Looked like it was a game. For me, the governments woeful response was only matched by the response of some of the public’s. At that time I was in touch with Italian outcast and close friends in Italy. They were a month in front of us and quite frankly my friends north of Milan were “ Mattoni di merda”. It was not nice. At that time I came under a certain amount of flack. Being on holiday, looking after grandkids etc etc. Quite frankly it bogged me off bigstyle. Since Ave been back people in the UK have become accustomed to the government opening “ air corridors” for travel and holidays. Grandparents looking after key workers kids to keep the country’s emergency services going. Etc etc. Things that we were doing back in March and April are now the norm And acceptable and more understandable.
What I have not said since is “ I told you so”. What would it serve apart from another argument on the forum which now becomes the norm. DFT may well be right, he don’t need or will get any acknowledgement that he is right. But the authorities however you feel about how they have handled this have not been helped by 700 turning up for raves, parties, 3 stuck in a tumble dryer etc etc. 
If everyone had done there bit and I mean everyone, am sure those 20K deaths that DFT spoke about would not of happened. 
like me, DFT and many others sometimes just need to let things go.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 12, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Oh, and I think Sahin and his wife are rock stars. They have created this company from nothing, developed a great technology and apparently they still live modestly - he cycles to work - despite their company now being very valuable.
		
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Reading about him And Missis S they are very clever, however am not sure about him not having a telly, how’s he gonna watch the masters. 😁


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## IainP (Nov 12, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I haven't looked very hard...

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/ne...an-blasts-governments-scaremongering-18974560

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tty-Vallances-doomsday-prediction-50-000.html

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Aren't both of those links about cases?


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2020)

Past couple of days I've been convinced I've also caught a cold as well as Covid. No covid symptoms but bunged up and sinus pain. Suddenly today my taste has gone and it's weird and not in a good way. Appetite has been very poor but suddenly fancied some bread with lashings of butter and marmite. Spread the brown stuff thick as owt and never tasted it. Lips burnt a bit but just nothing...weird. Didn't expect that to start a week after testing positive.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 12, 2020)

Sitting in my house yesterday watching builder over the road throwing some new wood off cuts in the skip.
Went over and rescued it ( skip diving I did ask first ) and have built my daughters school a mud kitchen out of it.
Very satisfying and am on the look for some more to keep me busy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2020)

IainP said:



			Aren't both of those links about cases?
		
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Yes - but both articles also refer to 200 deaths a day.  Anyway - I'm with Tashyboy on this. 

Note - 33470 cases reported today...that's one helluva jump


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Past couple of days I've been convinced I've also caught a cold as well as Covid. No covid symptoms but bunged up and sinus pain. Suddenly today my taste has gone and it's weird and not in a good way. Appetite has been very poor but suddenly fancied some bread with lashings of butter and marmite. Spread the brown stuff thick as owt and never tasted it. Lips burnt a bit but just nothing...weird. Didn't expect that to start a week after testing positive.
		
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You're not having a good time are you. Stay strong. Some on here would tell you not tasting marmite is only a good thing but I'm with you on this. Just about to get some toast and marmite as a little snack watching the golf until HID gets home


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You're not having a good time are you. Stay strong. Some on here would tell you not tasting marmite is only a good thing but I'm with you on this. Just about to get some toast and marmite as a little snack watching the golf until HID gets home
		
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I've been pretty much ok and hate head colds - make you feel so rubbish when a sneeze is always about to happen but never does! Hopefully the taste thing is short-lived and will do some testing for tea and see if anything tastes like something!!


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Hopefully the taste thing is short-lived and will do some testing for tea and see if anything tastes like something!!
		
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With your cooking?


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## Tashyboy (Nov 12, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Past couple of days I've been convinced I've also caught a cold as well as Covid. No covid symptoms but bunged up and sinus pain. Suddenly today my taste has gone and it's weird and not in a good way. Appetite has been very poor but suddenly fancied some bread with lashings of butter and marmite. Spread the brown stuff thick as owt and never tasted it. Lips burnt a bit but just nothing...weird. Didn't expect that to start a week after testing positive.
		
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One of the lads who i know through the legion is an ex para. By eck he can sup Stella. Anyway he has had Covid. He has not had nor does he feel like having a drink for 3 plus weeks. Says it dont feel like him at all.


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## DanFST (Nov 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			One of the lads who i know through the legion is an ex para. By eck he can sup Stella. Anyway he has had Covid. He has not had nor does he feel like having a drink for 3 plus weeks. Says it dont feel like him at all.
		
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I got in in February, I've only just got back to drinking too much beer (not sure if it is due to lockdown 2.0)

That lump in the throat when you drink to much. I had that pretty much all the time.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			50,000 UK deaths.
I recall all the insults I received from a few flat earth posters on here 6 months ago when I suggested at least 20,000 will die unless the authorities changed direction.
Sad times.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I haven't looked very hard...

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/ne...an-blasts-governments-scaremongering-18974560

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tty-Vallances-doomsday-prediction-50-000.html

Click to expand...

DFT Suggested  it was a 'Few flat earth posters on here 6 months ago' what's that got to do with Piers Morgan Et Al?     Get your stories sorted out please 🙄


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## williamalex1 (Nov 12, 2020)

bobmac said:



			With your cooking?  

Click to expand...

Ouch !, brave man


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## chrisd (Nov 12, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			DFT Suggested  it was a 'Few flat earth posters on here 6 months ago' what's that got to do with Piers Morgan Et Al?     Get your stories sorted out please 🙄
		
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I wont hold my breath for that one !


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## Slab (Nov 13, 2020)

Wednesday marked 200 days with no cases in the community, Thursday we have a positive case  
(seems the bloke caught it from his dad who flew in from overseas and the quarantine/tests didn't prevent infection)

The news, while inevitable, still felt like being slapped with wet fish


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2020)

Me and all the kids have colds .. not covid defo just a cold.. but that doubt always creeps in with a cough or a sneeze 

My mum is isolating and got a test wedsnesday...... Very impressed not only negative but 24 hours result? Brilliant .. she still has to follow isolating until Tuesday back to school wednesday (her day off so Thursday it will be) as per the bubble rules 

My sister is isolating in her school bubble.. still waiting for her test.. but she went for home test rather than go there like mum did 


Does make us feel better as we don't see my sister often.. and my mum we saw the day after she had contact with a positive student (she didn't know yet ofc) so it worried my mum


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2020)

Restaurant at Malaga hospital has been turned into a COVID ward. Numbers, nationally, rising at quite a pace, although we’re seeing quite a drop off locally.


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## robinthehood (Nov 13, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I wont hold my breath for that one !
		
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I agree DFT's post was pretty crass, but it onlty takes a second to put a search string in google to see that there are stacks of posts on this site disputing the number of deaths.


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I agree DFT's post was pretty crass, but it onlty takes a second to put a search string in google to see that there are stacks of posts on this site disputing the number of deaths.
		
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I dont disagree but it was an "I told you so" post that I mainly commented on and if everyone was held to account  for opinions they posted on these forums there would have to be a new "Apologies " section on the forum and, last but not least ,Doon and SILH are the ones imo who would/should spend most time apologising !


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## 4LEX (Nov 13, 2020)

I had very minor symptoms over the weekend so went for a test this week and wasn't impressed. The person talking you through it rightly stays well clear but the problem is they can't see if you've done the test properly. I felt I hadn't and explained I'd rather have someone do it for me. That wasn't an option amazingly and there was no mention of another test, just a scan and drop off of the test bag.

I walked out knowing 100% it would be negative and felt like a total waste of time. Sure enough the test was negative but I'm still isolating and symptom free since Monday now. I think asking people with no experience of awkward self testing like that to do it properly is leading to false negatives.

It looks to me in order to hit the new test numbers, shortcuts are being taken which are compromising the accuracy of the data.

I'm also in a bit of a limbo as technically all clear to go out but morally I feel I should wait. Thank god for the football and golf on this weekend


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## AmandaJR (Nov 13, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I had very minor symptoms over the weekend so went for a test this week and wasn't impressed. The person talking you through it rightly stays well clear but the problem is they can't see if you've done the test properly. I felt I hadn't and explained I'd rather have someone do it for me. That wasn't an option amazingly and there was no mention of another test, just a scan and drop off of the test bag.

I walked out knowing 100% it would be negative and felt like a total waste of time. Sure enough the test was negative but I'm still isolating and symptom free since Monday now. I think asking people with no experience of awkward self testing like that to do it properly is leading to false negatives.

It looks to me in order to hit the new test numbers, shortcuts are being taken which are compromising the accuracy of the data.

I'm also in a bit of a limbo as technically all clear to go out but morally I feel I should wait. Thank god for the football and golf on this weekend 

Click to expand...

The place I went they did look through the window to check but mainly to ensure it was put in the right packaging etc.

Put it this way - if you didn't retch and think you might puke...or didn't have a twitchy rabbit-like nose for an hour afterwards...you didn't do it properly!


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The place I went they did look through the window to check but mainly to ensure it was put in the right packaging etc.

Put it this way - if you didn't retch and think you might puke...or didn't have a twitchy rabbit-like nose for an hour afterwards...you didn't do it properly!
		
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This.
One of the soldiers demonstrated it in Liverpool and threw up himself.
So he did it properly.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 13, 2020)

My sister is now displaying symptoms (that's what I've been told, obviously haven't seen her. She can be bit of a worrier but still)

She is clinically vunrable so is abit extra worried

Hopefully nothing


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## 4LEX (Nov 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			The place I went they did look through the window to check but mainly to ensure it was put in the right packaging etc.

Put it this way - if you didn't retch and think you might puke...or didn't have a twitchy rabbit-like nose for an hour afterwards...you didn't do it properly!
		
Click to expand...

I did indeed gag twice with eyes watering but I don't think I scraped properly. The nose was easier as you can't go wrong as long as it goes up far enough. Meh.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 13, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I did indeed gag twice with eyes watering but I don't think I scraped properly. The nose was easier as you can't go wrong as long as it goes up far enough. Meh.
		
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I could be wrong here but if you don't do the test correctly does it not come back as inconclusive? @Ethan will know for sure.


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			There's a whole clique on the forum that take great delight in bullying those two posters in particular. It surprises me they don't bite back more often.
		
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It could possibly be argued that they possibly reap what they sow


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My sister is now displaying symptoms (that's what I've been told, obviously haven't seen her. She can be bit of a worrier but still)

She is clinically vunrable so is abit extra worried

Hopefully nothing
		
Click to expand...

Hope it works out and nothing serious other than her over reacting (natural enough though)


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## Ethan (Nov 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I could be wrong here but if you don't do the test correctly does it not come back as inconclusive? @Ethan will know for sure.
		
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A lot of false negative tests are due to incorrect technique missing the hotbeds of virus.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			A lot of false negative tests are due to incorrect technique missing the hotbeds of virus.
		
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Out of interest - are there many, if any, false positives?


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## Ethan (Nov 13, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Out of interest - are there many, if any, false positives?
		
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False positives are almost all down to lab issues. The false positive rate is not very high, reported as 1-4%. If you are testing a large population in which the true rate of positivity is low, that is still quite a lot of false positives, but it is better than false negatives.  

Technique is more of a problem for false negatives. If someone waves the sob i side a mouth and fails to touch any relevant structure, the test will be negative even if the tonsils are brimming with virus.


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That would be the Trumpian response.
		
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Comedy gold!


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## williamalex1 (Nov 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			False positives are almost all down to lab issues. The false positive rate is not very high, reported as 1-4%. If you are testing a large population in which the true rate of positivity is low, that is still quite a lot of false positives, but it is better than false negatives. 

Technique is more of a problem for false negatives. If someone waves the sob i side a mouth and fails to touch any relevant structure, the test will be negative even if the tonsils are brimming with virus.
		
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Honest question , is there a more reliable type of test, perhaps blood or urine ?


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## Ethan (Nov 13, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Honest question , is there a more reliable type of test, perhaps blood or urine ?
		
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There are blood tests but they aren't fully validated for mass use, as far as I am aware. You might remember there was a lot of discussion in the spring about fingerpick tests. That has all gone rather quiet since. I am not sure if detectable virus is found in urine in all cases, it is seen in people who have some kidney damage due to Covid and there are tests which will detect it of present. The problem arises in people who have Covid but not kidney involvement, who might test negative. .


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2020)

Ethan said:



			False positives are almost all down to lab issues. The false positive rate is not very high, reported as 1-4%. If you are testing a large population in which the true rate of positivity is low, that is still quite a lot of false positives, but it is better than false negatives. 

Technique is more of a problem for false negatives. If someone waves the sob i side a mouth and fails to touch any relevant structure, the test will be negative even if the tonsils are brimming with virus.
		
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My first test was inconclusive back in the first wave. Went back the following day and they seem to swab in a totally different place and much further up the nose. Came back negative (although the consultants think the symptoms pointed towards having it) but strange how different the two tests felt. Issues in training as they seemed to be thrown into testing people very quickly?


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## huds1475 (Nov 13, 2020)

4LEX said:



			I had very minor symptoms over the weekend so went for a test this week and wasn't impressed. The person talking you through it rightly stays well clear but the problem is they can't see if you've done the test properly. I felt I hadn't and explained I'd rather have someone do it for me. That wasn't an option amazingly and there was no mention of another test, just a scan and drop off of the test bag.

I walked out knowing 100% it would be negative and felt like a total waste of time. Sure enough the test was negative but I'm still isolating and symptom free since Monday now. I think asking people with no experience of awkward self testing like that to do it properly is leading to false negatives.

It looks to me in order to hit the new test numbers, shortcuts are being taken which are compromising the accuracy of the data.

I'm also in a bit of a limbo as technically all clear to go out but morally I feel I should wait. Thank god for the football and golf on this weekend 

Click to expand...

If you thought you hadn't done properly, was there anything preventing you re-swabbing with the same swab?

I wouldn't be doing tests for people, putting myself in harms way for a paltry wage, just because they wanted it done for them.

Would think there's a H&S restriction prevents it too.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2020)

huds1475 said:



			If you thought you hadn't done properly, was there anything preventing you re-swabbing with the same swab?

I wouldn't be doing tests for people, putting myself in harms way for a paltry wage, just because they wanted it done for them.

Would think there's a H&S restriction prevents it too.
		
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The ones that were testing at Ascot Racecourse when I went up there were trained medical staff from Frimley


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The ones that were testing at Ascot Racecourse when I went up there were trained medical staff from Frimley
		
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They rushed it when you told them you were running in the 3.30 !


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2020)

chrisd said:



			They rushed it when you told them you were running in the 3.30 !
		
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Fell at the 2nd


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## williamalex1 (Nov 13, 2020)

I must admit that since this pandemic started, I've had quite a few Hypochondria attacks. The mind plays funny tricks at times, but so far so good


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2020)

Kaz said:



			That would be the Trumpian response.
		
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You seem quite naive to their trolling.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Fell at the 2nd
		
Click to expand...

I think other fences were taken into account.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I think other fences were taken into account.
		
Click to expand...

Offences ?


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Fell at the 2nd
		
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Strange ! ,

It was on the flat 😖😖


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem quite naive to their trolling.
		
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Maybe not so much nievity as nationalism ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Strange ! ,

It was on the flat 😖😖
		
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Furlong you fool !!! (hampered on the rail I was and not a sign of a stewards enquiry)


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## GB72 (Nov 14, 2020)

Ah It is a nasal swab, that is where I went wrong, should make the signage clearer😁😁


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## AmandaJR (Nov 14, 2020)

Well I am well and truly fed up with this bloody virus. I'm pretty much on the mend (touch wood) but David is on day 11 and still getting a fever. Yesterday he seemed so much better all day and then started to get chills in the evening and the shivering was just unreal :-( We spoke to the 111 on call doctor on Thursday and yesterday followed a protocol of Ibuprofen, 2 hours later Paracetomol and repeat but a very high temperature again this morning although has settled back down this past few hours. It just doesn't seem to want to let up...

Hoping today is the last day we have to stress about the bloody virus.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Well I am well and truly fed up with this bloody virus. I'm pretty much on the mend (touch wood) but David is on day 11 and still getting a fever. Yesterday he seemed so much better all day and then started to get chills in the evening and the shivering was just unreal :-( We spoke to the 111 on call doctor on Thursday and yesterday followed a protocol of Ibuprofen, 2 hours later Paracetomol and repeat but a very high temperature again this morning although has settled back down this past few hours. It just doesn't seem to want to let up...

Hoping today is the last day we have to stress about the bloody virus.
		
Click to expand...

Hope he gets better soon Amanda, must be very worrying.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hope he gets better soon Amanda, must be very worrying.
		
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Thanks and yes it is. I can be a bit of a worrier at the best of times when it comes to my loved ones health. So the slightest noise in the night has me awake - last night I hit full panic mode only to realise what I could hear was Barley snoring!


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks and yes it is. I can be a bit of a worrier at the best of times when it comes to my loved ones health. So the slightest noise in the night has me awake - last night I hit full panic mode only to realise what I could hear was Barley snoring!
		
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Sorry, but I did snigger when I realised that one of the beloved hounds was the cause of your panic.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

Oh deep joy...

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/golf-clubs-warned-further-lockdown/

The MP will be getting an email shortly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Oh deep joy...

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/golf-clubs-warned-further-lockdown/

The MP will be getting an email shortly.
		
Click to expand...

That’s not a great story for NCG to put out on the web - just get everyone reacting when it’s just the opinion of someone unrelated to any decision

It’s already been seen that R number coming down and local restrictions helped. The country can’t afford to stay in lockdown after 2nd Dec. Unless something dramatic changes I expect us all back to the Tiering system from 3rd Dec


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s not a great story for NCG to put out on the web - just get everyone reacting when it’s just the opinion of someone unrelated to any decision

It’s already been seen that R number coming down and local restrictions helped. The country can’t afford to stay in lockdown after 2nd Dec. Unless something dramatic changes I expect us all back to the Tiering system from 3rd Dec
		
Click to expand...

I was up at my club on Friday doing a food Click & Collect & speaking to the Pro about one of the club teams I captain as there are issues sorting a match out.  It would appear from what he said that it's not just the guy on the NCG site that thinks this lockdown will continue.

Still, as long as Christmas is safe...


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I was up at my club on Friday doing a food Click & Collect & speaking to the Pro about one of the club teams I captain as there are issues sorting a match out.  It would appear from what he said that it's not just the guy on the NCG site that thinks this lockdown will continue.

Still, as long as Christmas is safe...
		
Click to expand...

That would be the different message than what our captain has been told and a few others in areas or councils and local governments with all being told to be planning for return to tier stage

And yes Xmas is important to millions for many reasons from mental health and financial reasons.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 14, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That would be the different message than what our captain has been told and a few others in areas or councils and local governments with all being told to be planning for return to tier stage

And yes Xmas is important to millions for many reasons from mental health and financial reasons.
		
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Having just listened to the BBC News, the lifting of the lockdown is anything but certain.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 14, 2020)

It may be that we will stay in lockdown longer although I feel the PM will do something to ensure where possible the nation can have a Christmas of sorts. After that I maintain (no proof just a gut instinct) that we'll go into lockdown again for January and perhaps February. Given the conditions out there today I'm not missing it. Not sure NCG should be putting this out there until there is any evidence as it feels a little bit like scaremongering but if the current lockdown is extended then I don't see golf clubs getting any dispensation to come out of it


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## IainP (Nov 14, 2020)

Always felt there would be a fair probability of golf in England not returning on the planned date, but think it's too early for making decisions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2020)

The “R” rate is currently lower in the NE than when we went into National Lockdown, prior to that we were in a high tier and Golf Courses and a lot of leisure activities were allowed.

My 2 penny worth, we’ll come out of a National Lockdown and go to varying tier levels around the country, so some courses/activities will open be allowed and some may stay in Lockdown.

I think it will be too much of a Political gamble to extend the National Lockdown after the PM stated it would end on 2nd Dec.

”Note” The last paragraph is in no way to be taken as a political statement from me! No hidden agenda etc etc.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The “R” rate is currently lower in the NE than when we went into National Lockdown, prior to that we were in a high tier and Golf Courses and a lot of leisure activities were allowed.

My 2 penny worth, we’ll come out of a National Lockdown and go to varying tier levels around the country, so some courses/activities will open be allowed and some may stay in Lockdown.

I think it will be too much of a Political gamble to extend the National Lockdown after the PM stated it would end on 2nd Dec.

”Note” The last paragraph is in no way to be taken as a political statement from me! No hidden agenda etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

My club has emailed saying they are unsure if we will come out into tier 1 2 or 3 so have taken booking system down as if it's 1 or 2 it's "normal" if 3 then down to 2 balls so they don't want 4 balls booked just incase


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## Hobbit (Nov 14, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The “R” rate is currently lower in the NE than when we went into National Lockdown, prior to that we were in a high tier and Golf Courses and a lot of leisure activities were allowed.

My 2 penny worth, we’ll come out of a National Lockdown and go to varying tier levels around the country, so some courses/activities will open be allowed and some may stay in Lockdown.

I think it will be too much of a Political gamble to extend the National Lockdown after the PM stated it would end on 2nd Dec.

”Note” The last paragraph is in no way to be taken as a political statement from me! No hidden agenda etc etc.
		
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What is the R rate for the NE Paul? I've not followed it to that level but I am aware James Cook University hospital now has 5 Covid wards. With what will be happening in the community, it doesn't make good reading.

As an aside, I've looked at R rates for the flu pandemics in the last 100 years. Spanish flu had an R rate of 1.80, and most of the R's for each of the nasty outbreaks have looked very similar. What would the mortality rate of Spanish flu have been if the patients had been supported by modern science? And what will subsequent waves look like for Covid as medicine gets a grip with treating it?

How long did Spanish flu last? There's some papers that suggest it started in the autumn of 1917 and went on till the spring of 1920. How many waves will we see from Covid? There's been some papers that suggest it might have 6 waves, diminishing ripples, and run for about 2 years. Will it? Maybe those questions are better put to Italian Outcast and Ethan.

Those that are impatient to get out there and have some fun, just remember the handwashing and masks. Just as you remember, almost subconsciously, to put on a seat belt or take that second glance when you're about to pull out, there's new habits to be learned so that we can all carry on living.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			What is the R rate for the NE Paul? I've not followed it to that level but I am aware James Cook University hospital now has 5 Covid wards. With what will be happening in the community, it doesn't make good reading.

As an aside, I've looked at R rates for the flu pandemics in the last 100 years. Spanish flu had an R rate of 1.80, and most of the R's for each of the nasty outbreaks have looked very similar. What would the mortality rate of Spanish flu have been if the patients had been supported by modern science? And what will subsequent waves look like for Covid as medicine gets a grip with treating it?

How long did Spanish flu last? There's some papers that suggest it started in the autumn of 1917 and went on till the spring of 1920. How many waves will we see from Covid? There's been some papers that suggest it might have 6 waves, diminishing ripples, and run for about 2 years. Will it? Maybe those questions are better put to Italian Outcast and Ethan.

Those that are impatient to get out there and have some fun, just remember the handwashing and masks. Just as you remember, almost subconsciously, to put on a seat belt or take that second glance when you're about to pull out, there's new habits to be learned so that we can all carry on living.
		
Click to expand...

As of yesterday it was 1.0-1.2 for North East & Yorkshire (we’re lumped together) mid Oct it was 1.3-1.4.

I think with the miserable weather recently less people are naturally out and about, it’s still far more than the first lockdown and more than it should or needs to be! But I do feel the numbers up here were/are skewed by both the increase in testing and the return of Schools and Uni’s in mid-Sept. The majority of cases we are hearing about around Seaham are still, on the main, linked to local schools.

I agree this will be with us in varying degrees for a long while yet and I’m not sure if we’ll get back to were we were or we’ll end up with a new “normal” of sorts.

On the Spanish Flu, an interesting read was on how it spread, ie mainly around the world via the Sea routes, so maybe that would of spread quicker or burnt out quicker in a modern setting.🤷‍♂️


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 14, 2020)

@Hobbit one of the issues here is that the NE has been lumped together as one unit. You know very well that Northumberland is a decent distance to Hartlepool,  North Tyneside and Co. Durham aren't linked etc. James Cook might be busy but last I heard the ward for Northumberland had plenty of empty beds, 50% empty. Now, my data may be a little out of date but you get the gist. For a good spell Teeside had better figures than the rest of the region, now not so much.

The R rate in Teeside may be high, up here low, Durham low, overall R rate getting better as it averages out. The region should be separated into it's natural sections, not grouped as it is right now.


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## Hobbit (Nov 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



@Hobbit one of the issues here is that the NE has been lumped together as one unit. You know very well that Northumberland is a decent distance to Hartlepool,  North Tyneside and Co. Durham aren't linked etc. James Cook might be busy but last I heard the ward for Northumberland had plenty of empty beds, 50% empty. Now, my data may be a little out of date but you get the gist. For a good spell Teeside had better figures than the rest of the region, now not so much.

The R rate in Teeside may be high, up here low, Durham low, overall R rate getting better as it averages out. The region should be separated into it's natural sections, not grouped as it is right now.
		
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We're suffering a similar lumping in. Locally, after 3 really tough weeks for numbers, things are dropping off. Unfortunately, Andalucia has some of the worst numbers in Spain. And as a result we're already hearing of an extension through to mid-Dec.

The lockdown itself isn't too bad.... if you live in a decent sized town. We're hearing of people in the village being fined for going to the next town for shopping. There's 3 corner shops in the village + a proper butcher. However, if you want fresh milk you aren't getting it here. UHT or nothing, and its been like that for the 4.5 years we've had our place.

If we lived in the town that we're moving to in 2.5 weeks time we'd have access to everything we want, including bowling.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



@Hobbit one of the issues here is that the NE has been lumped together as one unit. You know very well that Northumberland is a decent distance to Hartlepool,  North Tyneside and Co. Durham aren't linked etc. James Cook might be busy but last I heard the ward for Northumberland had plenty of empty beds, 50% empty. Now, my data may be a little out of date but you get the gist. For a good spell Teeside had better figures than the rest of the region, now not so much.

The R rate in Teeside may be high, up here low, Durham low, overall R rate getting better as it averages out. The region should be separated into it's natural sections, not grouped as it is right now.
		
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We have the weird situation were we are classed as Durham for statistics etc, but an Ambulance picking you up takes you to Sunderland.

It led to a lot of confusion in the summer when Durham Trusts were reporting low figures and Sunderland above average and we were falling between the 2, even as of last night Durham and Darlington Hospital Trust were reporting 9 cases of people with COVID in ICU’s across the trust out of a normal capacity of 19 beds

I can’t fnd the covid figure for Sunderland Trust, but in normal time they have 22  ICU beds available.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 15, 2020)

There may well be reasons that as an observer misses the point but why doesn't a region have a/some hospital(s) set aside to Covid cases that leaves others to deal with only non covid.


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## Backache (Nov 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There may well be reasons that as an observer misses the point but why doesn't a region have a/some hospital(s) set aside to Covid cases that leaves others to deal with only non covid.
		
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Might work if they were close together, but people with covid get other conditions and people with other conditions get covid, the relative proportions with each condton will fluctuate through the epidemic so hospitals will get too full or empty. They do segregate within hospitals in different wards where possible.


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## Hobbit (Nov 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There may well be reasons that as an observer misses the point but why doesn't a region have a/some hospital(s) set aside to Covid cases that leaves others to deal with only non covid.
		
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Interesting question. Once upon a time, there used to be isolation hospitals for TB. My mum was a theatre sister in a TB hospital near Wolsingham, Co. Durham.

But if a hospital has a number of specialties, e.g. oncology, cardiac, dermatology, would you close those depts so that the hospital was Covid only? Another issue might be the number of ICU Covid patients. Across, say, 5 hospitals there might be 70 ICU Covids. Fitting those into a 20 bed unit is difficult, even if cardiac ICU and HDU was used for the really sick. An ICU bed space has more infrastructure than a general ward bed space.


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## Ethan (Nov 15, 2020)

The problem is that people are coming in from various sources for assessment. If they pitch up at the local ED with possible Covid, do you assess them there and then ship them off to the Covid sanatorium, or do you bring all suspect cases for assessment at a staging area adjacent to the Covid sanatorium and then admit those that are likely and boot those who aren't? It means a lot of transport going further than it probably would, and greater downtime for them. 

The Nightingale Hospitals are not suitable for really sick patients, they don't really have proper ICU facilities, they are probably better as step-down convalescent hospitals prior to discharge. Nightingales also put pressure on local hospitals because staff and equipment are redeployed from elsewhere. It is unclear if they really help or hinder the overall effort.


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## chellie (Nov 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Well I am well and truly fed up with this bloody virus. I'm pretty much on the mend (touch wood) but David is on day 11 and still getting a fever. Yesterday he seemed so much better all day and then started to get chills in the evening and the shivering was just unreal :-( We spoke to the 111 on call doctor on Thursday and yesterday followed a protocol of Ibuprofen, 2 hours later Paracetomol and repeat but a very high temperature again this morning although has settled back down this past few hours. It just doesn't seem to want to let up...

Hoping today is the last day we have to stress about the bloody virus.
		
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Hope David is feeling better today and also that you are Amanda.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 15, 2020)

chellie said:



			Hope David is feeling better today and also that you are Amanda.
		
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Thanks. He had a better evening without a rise in temperature and shivers but high temperature again this morning. Flipping thing is taking some fighting off but signs of him getting topside of it I hope. My last day of self isolation today and whilst I wouldn't do much with my freedom it will be nice to have options!

I'm so bored I have watched the whole grand prix so far - it is more exciting in the wet though!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 16, 2020)

Any update on the immunity after having covid? Seen the PM is isolating after coming in to contact with someone else who is positive, is that because he (anyone) can still be a carrier or is it because we don’t yet if he or anyone can get sick again?


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## Slime (Nov 16, 2020)

I can't go to work today until the couriers have collected my Covid test.
Being self-employed, that's not ideal, but I do appreciate the bigger picture.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Any update on the immunity after having covid? Seen the PM is isolating after coming in to contact with someone else who is positive, is that because he (anyone) can still be a carrier or is it because we don’t yet if he or anyone can get sick again?
		
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I presume it is a bit of both. You have 90 days after having caught it where you do not have to isolate again but he is outside of this. I guess this is all too new, not enough info yet, so the system plays it ultra cautious.

(hopefully @Ethan will be along shortly to clarify)


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## Ethan (Nov 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I presume it is a bit of both. You have 90 days after having caught it where you do not have to isolate again but he is outside of this. I guess this is all too new, not enough info yet, so the system plays it ultra cautious.

(hopefully @Ethan will be along shortly to clarify)
		
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It is based on simplicity rather than science. In all likelihood he still has antibodies, but even if doesn't, immune memory and T-cell response should take care of any Covid he encounters. I would presume that as well as not being symptomatic, he is not likely to be a transmitter either.

Back in March there was some discussion about immunity passports, but Govt decided this would lead to a two tier system for social distancing and all the other measures and lead to non-compliance. I think for the same reason they would be very wary of suggesting that Johnson doesn't religiously honour the rules now because everyone else who had, or thought they had, Covid might decide to do what they wanted. 

One other question is why Number 10 doesn't practice social distancing or masking. This was an unnecessary complication.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is based on simplicity rather than science. In all likelihood he still has antibodies, but even if doesn't, immune memory and T-cell response should take care of any Covid he encounters. I would presume that as well as not being symptomatic, he is not likely to be a transmitter either.

Back in March there was some discussion about immunity passports, but Govt decided this would lead to a two tier system for social distancing and all the other measures and lead to non-compliance. I think for the same reason they would be very wary of suggesting that Johnson doesn't religiously honour the rules now because everyone else who had, or thought they had, Covid might decide to do what they wanted.

One other question is why Number 10 doesn't practice social distancing or masking. This was an unnecessary complication.
		
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Five Conservative MPs now tested positive - what the heck's that all about...from the meeting with the PM last Thursday...clustered, minglin' and just not very brilliant.

Putting aside everything else as I must - this example rather highlights for me the impact a 'super-spreader' can have on a group who are either allowed to mingle in a work context and so without masks, or a group who do not adhere rigorously to the rules.


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## Italian outcast (Nov 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is based on simplicity rather than science. In all likelihood he still has antibodies, but even if doesn't, immune memory and T-cell response should take care of any Covid he encounters. I would presume that as well as not being symptomatic, he is not likely to be a transmitter either.

Back in March there was some discussion about immunity passports, but Govt decided this would lead to a two tier system for social distancing and all the other measures and lead to non-compliance. I think for the same reason they would be very wary of suggesting that Johnson doesn't religiously honour the rules now because everyone else who had, or thought they had, Covid might decide to do what they wanted.

One other question is why Number 10 doesn't practice social distancing or masking. This was an unnecessary complication.
		
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I agree Johnson has to do what he is doing at the moment - i'm unsure the protocols fully take into situational circumstances - distancing and masks in and around no10 etc

BUT...At some point they will have to bring in a two-tier system for some aspects
You cannot have continual self-isolation after being 'in contact' i.e., post track and trace as in Johnson - applied to everyone forever although 

At some point those post-covid or post vaccination (who could be considered as having an immunity passport) will have to be exempt from self-isolation aspects - otherwise it will take ages to get out of this cycle - and restrict much of the broader socio-economic benefits that vaccination will bring

However, any post-covid or post vaccination passport should not exempt anyone from more general lockdown protocols - distancing, masks transport etc - these should apply to everyone as appropriate - in part to maintain social/group compliance - and also as its impossible to monitor everyone for their status on a day to day basis

That to me would seem the best working strategy to all of this but i would believe that they will roll that out only after the first phase of vaccination


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## Ethan (Nov 16, 2020)

Italian outcast said:



			I agree Johnson has to do what he is doing at the moment - i'm unsure the protocols fully take into situational circumstances - distancing and masks in and around no10 etc

BUT...At some point they will have to bring in a two-tier system for some aspects
You cannot have continual self-isolation after being 'in contact' i.e., post track and trace as in Johnson - applied to everyone forever although

At some point those post-covid or post vaccination (who could be considered as having an immunity passport) will have to be exempt from self-isolation aspects - otherwise it will take ages to get out of this cycle - and restrict much of the broader socio-economic benefits that vaccination will bring

However, any post-covid or post vaccination passport should not exempt anyone from more general lockdown protocols - distancing, masks transport etc - these should apply to everyone as appropriate - in part to maintain social/group compliance - and also as its impossible to monitor everyone for their status on a day to day basis

That to me would seem the best working strategy to all of this but i would believe that they will roll that out only after the first phase of vaccination
		
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Sure, some sort of tipping point will be reached, mostly in terms of numbers of presumed immune people as well as public understanding of what it means to be immune, and must lead to exemptions from the needlessly damaging aspects of policy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2020)

I found myself yesterday contemplating the argument of an anti-vacc'er - that all who wish to be vaccinated will (in time) be vaccinated and that will 'protect' them from infection from those who do not want to be vaccinated and who subsequently are infected by the virus.  Yes the transition period to when all who want to be vaccinated are vaccinated will be problematic indeed - but that period is perhaps subject to different considerations to when all are vaccinated who want to be vaccinated.

But of course I can then not see past the load imposed on the NHS of all those not vaccinated and becoming ill with Covid-19.  Despite what I might want I feel that we cannot simply say - 'tough' - as that way lies telling smokers, drinkers - and even then perhaps such as reckless swimmers, climbers etc - 'tough.


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## Italian outcast (Nov 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I found myself yesterday contemplating the argument of an anti-vacc'er - that all who wish to be vaccinated will (in time) be vaccinated and that will 'protect' them from infection from those who do not want to be vaccinated and who subsequently are infected by the virus.  Yes the transition period to when all who want to be vaccinated are vaccinated will be problematic indeed - but that period is perhaps subject to different considerations to when all are vaccinated who want to be vaccinated.

But of course I can then not see past the load imposed on the NHS of all those not vaccinated and becoming ill with Covid-19.  Despite what I might want I feel that we cannot simply say - 'tough' - as that way lies telling smokers, drinkers - and even then perhaps such as reckless swimmers, climbers etc - 'tough.
		
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The aim is not to vaccinate everyone - at first the most essential staff (healthcare/carers) and the most vulnerable to effects of infection..then lets see (probably over 50s then stop at that) - personally i reckon it will be essential
Remember with a vaccine policy we do aim to generate herd immunity - through safer vaccination rather than through unrestrained and dangerous natural infection
As for anti-vaxxers - or broader vaccine hesitancy - that has to be accepted - there will be no mandate - it will be an individual choice
In general healthcare and healthcare staff never say tough - that way lies puritanical madness - nearly every disease and early death can have a 'tough' applied to it in some way - so as you say we show compassion and at our worst reserve judgement


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## Ethan (Nov 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I found myself yesterday contemplating the argument of an anti-vacc'er - that all who wish to be vaccinated will (in time) be vaccinated and that will 'protect' them from infection from those who do not want to be vaccinated and who subsequently are infected by the virus.  Yes the transition period to when all who want to be vaccinated are vaccinated will be problematic indeed - but that period is perhaps subject to different considerations to when all are vaccinated who want to be vaccinated.

But of course I can then not see past the load imposed on the NHS of all those not vaccinated and becoming ill with Covid-19.  Despite what I might want I feel that we cannot simply say - 'tough' - as that way lies telling smokers, drinkers - and even then perhaps such as reckless swimmers, climbers etc - 'tough.
		
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The selfish shy vaxxer who wants everybody else to get the vacc so that they protect him too needs to know that it will take some time and that even when the herd immunity threshold is reached, that does not prevent a non-immune person from getting Covid from someone who is carrying it. It only stops a pandemic propagating. There will be cases and deaths, albeit a declining number, for some time after we ht the 66% immunity level needed. 

I think that a lot of people who currently say they won't get it will change their minds as friends and family get it with little adverse effect, and if and when Govt relax some restrictions for eligible people. International travel and a number of types of work may be a problem for non-vaxxed too.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think that a lot of people who currently say they won't get it will change their minds as friends and family get it with little adverse effect, and if and when Govt relax some restrictions for eligible people. International travel and a number of types of work may be a problem for non-vaxxed too.
		
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Vaccine passports or certificates have been muttered about apparently. That may change a few minds.


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## robinthehood (Nov 16, 2020)

Another vaccine announced, with as much as 95% protection


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## robinthehood (Nov 16, 2020)

Hopefully it will help us see an end to the pandemic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54902908


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Vaccine passports or certificates have been muttered about apparently. That may change a few minds.
		
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I cannot see how you can open boarders for travel etc without something along those lines.


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2020)

Where are we now with the Oxford vaccine. May be just from a UK reporting point of view but the inferences were that it was at the front of the pack but appears to have dropped back a bit now or at least gone very quiet.


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## garyinderry (Nov 16, 2020)

No idea how they work out if a vaccine is effective or   How do they work out if they are immune.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I cannot see how you can open boarders for travel etc without something along those lines.
		
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Countries we might wish to travel to may not give us the choice...


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## Tashyboy (Nov 16, 2020)

Me, Ave already made the decision am having it. The vaccine that is.

However do Sub 50yr olds have a dilemma?

The general feeling Is that age wise over 50’s will be offered it but under 50’s not so. Again it has been mentioned why would you give a vaccine to a fit person. However as has been also mentioned we do not know what the long term problems are re Covid in younger people catching Covid. So would you want it or not if your under 50?

What’s the answer, me I don’t know, just glad it don’t affect me.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Me, Ave already made the decision am having it. The vaccine that is.

However do Sub 50yr olds have a dilemma?

The general feeling Is that age wise over 50’s will be offered it but under 50’s not so. Again it has been mentioned why would you give a vaccine to a fit person. However as has been also mentioned we do not know what the long term problems are re Covid in younger people catching Covid. So would you want it or not if your under 50?

What’s the answer, me I don’t know, just glad it don’t affect me.
		
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Just as the regular flu vaccine is offered to the over xx years of age and the at risk groups, the Covid vaccine similarly so...

Also, there's a number of posts appearing on social media about its not had the 'usual' trial periods etc. Current flu vaccines are out within 2 years at the most.

Like you Tashy, I'm the wrong side of 25. I can spend a few years hiding away in the back of my cave or I can have the vaccine and get out there and enjoy whatever time I have left. I'll take the latter. At least I'll be filling my time with good things.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Where are we now with the Oxford vaccine. May be just from a UK reporting point of view but the inferences were that it was at the front of the pack but appears to have dropped back a bit now or at least gone very quiet.
		
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This morning they said they were about 2-3 weeks away from the latest results.


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## chrisd (Nov 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just as the regular flu vaccine is offered to the over xx years of age and the at risk groups, the Covid vaccine similarly so...

Also, there's a number of posts appearing on social media about its not had the 'usual' trial periods etc. Current flu vaccines are out within 2 years at the most.

Like you Tashy, I'm the wrong side of 25. I can spend a few years hiding away in the back of my cave or I can have the vaccine and get out there and enjoy whatever time I have left. I'll take the latter. At least I'll be filling my time with good things.
		
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25??

Did you not mean 75??


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2020)

chrisd said:



			25??

Did you not mean 75??
		
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Lol, long time before 75 Chris... well, less than 15 years but more than 10.


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## Ethan (Nov 16, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Hopefully it will help us see an end to the pandemic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54902908

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After the announcement of the Pfizer results, Moderna was expected to post string numbers as they are somewhat similar in terms of mode of action. I wouldn't place too much on the 90 vs 95% difference, very few people got Covid on either vaccine so the statistical reliability of the precise number is not high. Either way, both were very effective, and interestingly, it has been reported that none of the few people who got Covid on the Moderna vaccine had a bad case. This might suggest that the severity is also reduced, which would be great news, but again, small numbers. 

It will be interesting to see if the AZ vaccine reports similar numbers. There is a feeling around that it might fall a bit short, but still be pretty good.

The UK had not previously reserved any Moderna vaccine, but I expect they will be scrambling to do so now.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			After the announcement of the Pfizer results, Moderna was expected to post string numbers as they are somewhat similar in terms of mode of action. I wouldn't place too much on the 90 vs 95% difference, very few people got Covid on either vaccine so the statistical reliability of the precise number is not high. Either way, both were very effective, and interestingly, it has been reported that none of the few people who got Covid on the Moderna vaccine had a bad case. This might suggest that the severity is also reduced, which would be great news, but again, small numbers.

It will be interesting to see if the AZ vaccine reports similar numbers. There is a feeling around that it might fall a bit short, but still be pretty good.

*The UK had not previously reserved any Moderna vaccine, but I expect they will be scrambling to do so now.*

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I saw earlier that we had pre-ordered 6 different vaccines but not the Moderna one. Are the pre-orders all dependent on the vaccine getting clearance and being authorised for use or do they have to pay regardless? Did we not order the Moderna one because the Pfizer one and the Moderna one were being produced using similar methods so either both would work or both would fail so therefore we were hedging our bets? Without getting too political there seems to be quite a bit of criticism of the government for not ordering the Moderna one. No idea if it is justified criticism or not (and we probably can't discuss it without getting modded) but I imagine if they had ordered the Moderna one and it hadn't worked they would have still received criticism.


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## Ethan (Nov 16, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I saw earlier that we had pre-ordered 6 different vaccines but not the Moderna one. Are the pre-orders all dependent on the vaccine getting clearance and being authorised for use or do they have to pay regardless? Did we not order the Moderna one because the Pfizer one and the Moderna one were being produced using similar methods so either both would work or both would fail so therefore we were hedging our bets? Without getting too political there seems to be quite a bit of criticism of the government for not ordering the Moderna one. No idea if it is justified criticism or not (and we probably can't discuss it without getting modded) but I imagine if they had ordered the Moderna one and it hadn't worked they would have still received criticism.
		
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They are all normally options based on successful approval, so they tend to over-order because not all vaccines will make it through. Even though the Pfizer (really the BioNTech/Pfizer) vaccine and Moderna vaccines were using similar mechanisms, and similar efficacy is no surprise, the specific formulations are not the same, one of them could have had production problems, say a factory with audit issues or one of a raft of technical failures in the chain between factory and administration. It is an eggs in one basket scenario, really.

In my opinion, the Moderna one is the better bet, similar efficacy (90 vs 95% is the same in data sets of these sizes) but storage and therefore distribution is much easier with Moderna. 

It will be interesting to see if the Oxford/AZ vaccine performs as strongly. It was previously suspected it was not quite as efficacious as the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine but it may still be pretty good. That was based on a much more modest expectation for the BioNTech/Pfizer, so if Oxford/AZ isn't also proportionality more effective too, there could be a problem. A great deal of nationalist and reputational capital has been placed in it. If it has the same sort of numbers, that is great news and derricks the vaccination programme further.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2020)

Looks like we've ordered 5 million doses of the Moderna one. Obviously that's not a lot as everyone needs two shots but fingers crossed that with all the different orders being placed we'll have enough to cover all of the high risk groups and essential workers.


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## Hobbit (Nov 16, 2020)

President of Spain has spoken about a full lockdown through to mid-Dec. Decision is based on if things continue to slide over the next week... note, continue.

The current trend isn’t good. The metric is 60% of ICU beds taken up by COVID-19 patients. That’s easily being exceeded at present, and as there is a 2 week lag it will get worse before it starts to flatten.


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## Ethan (Nov 16, 2020)

The politicians in NI are beginning to talk about tightening lockdown restrictions further, after extending the planned lockdown by a week. Looks ominous. I think it will be a very courageous decision (as Sir Humphrey would have put it) to ease lockdown much in England from Dec 2nd unless they are prepared to risk things blowing up over Christmas and New Year.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 16, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There may well be reasons that as an observer misses the point but why doesn't a region have a/some hospital(s) set aside to Covid cases that leaves others to deal with only non covid.
		
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Some places are doing this. Addenbrooks is converting some existing and I think a new built space into covid wards. But it ca take a bit of time to reconfigure depending on the services already in there and what might be needed.


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## ger147 (Nov 16, 2020)

Looks like a big chunk of the west of Scotland is heading towards Tier 4, which is basically a lockdown i.e. all hospitality venues and non-essentail shops closed etc. More grim news as 2020 staggers towards its end.

Official announcement will be tomorrow but we've been prepared to expect the worst.


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## robinthehood (Nov 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The politicians in NI are beginning to talk about tightening lockdown restrictions further, after extending the planned lockdown by a week. Looks ominous. I think it will be a very courageous decision (as Sir Humphrey would have put it) to ease lockdown much in England from Dec 2nd unless they are prepared to risk things blowing up over Christmas and New Year.
		
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Just open golf courses. All good then.


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## Backache (Nov 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Five Conservative MPs now tested positive - what the heck's that all about...from the meeting with the PM last Thursday...clustered, minglin' and just not very brilliant.

Putting aside everything else as I must - this example rather highlights for me the impact a 'super-spreader' can have on a group who are either allowed to mingle in a work context and so without masks, or a group who do not adhere rigorously to the rules.
		
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Think it was only one who has tested positive, the rest are self isolating as contacts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2020)

Just not getting how many friends and family of friends are planning Christmas get togethers - with some already setting out their travel plans around the country and into the country from abroad.  And they seem to be doing the planning and booking flights in full expectation that they will be able to go ahead with their plans.  

With this evening news about not coming out of lockdown on 2nd Dec or coming out and going immediately into a strengthened tiering system I am wondering whether such reports will have the slightest impact on what we’ve heard planned.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2020)

Backache said:



			Think it was only one who has tested positive, the rest are self isolating as contacts.
		
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12 self-isolating I now hear.  What were they up to not keeping their distance...even in a work context they should surely keep their distance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			After the announcement of the Pfizer results, Moderna was expected to post string numbers as they are somewhat similar in terms of mode of action. I wouldn't place too much on the 90 vs 95% difference, very few people got Covid on either vaccine so the statistical reliability of the precise number is not high. Either way, both were very effective, and interestingly, it has been reported that none of the few people who got Covid on the Moderna vaccine had a bad case. This might suggest that the severity is also reduced, which would be great news, but again, small numbers.

It will be interesting to see if the AZ vaccine reports similar numbers. There is a feeling around that it might fall a bit short, but still be pretty good.

The UK had not previously reserved any Moderna vaccine, but I expect they will be scrambling to do so now.
		
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I was wondering about 90 positive infections in a sample of 15,000 compared with 5 in the vaccinated 15,000 - just didn’t seem statistically significant when you surely cant have consistent exposure in similar scenarios across both sets of 15,000. I want to believe it’s significant.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			12 self-isolating I now hear.  What were they up to not keeping their distance...even in a work context they should surely keep their distance.
		
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I don't think the SD distances comes into it *in an indoors situation that hasn't got excellent ventilation.*
I have mentioned in a few posts that I've read more and more that scientists etc are believing that aerosol spreading is the real culprit. People being in the same enclosed space breathing each other's air, it circulates round and round far beyond 1 or 2 metres. Like being in a room full of smokers.
Just this morning on the BBC news app there was a piece about it.
Cited a chap in a restaurant who infected nine others there.etc
That's why we have the present spike, since the opening of pubs and restaurants ,and family gatherings, (the last happening but shouldn't have), -I.e. Indoors.And we didn't have big spike after beach invasions in the summer etc because they were outdoors.
Which means that those you speak of planning get togethers are not going to help matters, to put it politely!


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## GB72 (Nov 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just not getting how many friends and family of friends are planning Christmas get togethers - with some already setting out their travel plans around the country and into the country from abroad.  And they seem to be doing the planning and booking flights in full expectation that they will be able to go ahead with their plans. 

With this evening news about not coming out of lockdown on 2nd Dec or coming out and going immediately into a strengthened tiering system I am wondering whether such reports will have the slightest impact on what we’ve heard planned.
		
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Certainly cannot see more than the return of the rule of 6 (maybe with young kids not counting) cannot see overnight stays being allowed. Got plans for all eventualities from down at my in-laws to a few people from the village, to just my mum as we are her support bubble to just my wife and I. Just wish they would make a decision as don't fancy the idea of last minute food shopping.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 17, 2020)

We will definitely get Christmas. Political suicide not too and will kill any national support for lockdown stone dead. However to what degree we will be restricted remains uncertain but we've already made the decision not to go anywhere near the in-laws (either visiting or having them over) and so it will be HID and I for the whole festive period until after the new year. That's another event I think we will get (if only as a lifeline to the pubs) but again in restricted circumstances and again something I will be avoiding. Basically I'm shutting the door on Christmas eve and coming out in 2021.


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## Ethan (Nov 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was wondering about 90 positive infections in a sample of 15,000 compared with 5 in the vaccinated 15,000 - just didn’t seem statistically significant when you surely cant have consistent exposure in similar scenarios across both sets of 15,000. I want to believe it’s significant.
		
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As far as I can tell, the stat plan for the study assumed a lower effect size, more like 60%, so the study was set up based on 160-odd Covid cases having occurred which would have been enough to show an effect of the expected size, but because the effect size turned out to be higher, the number of cases ended to answer the statistical question occurred sooner at 95 cases. I haven't seen a p-value for that, but I would assume with that magnitude of difference, and to have triggered a public report, it has to be statistically significant.

The question of balance between groups, which is what I assume you mean by consistent exposure, is always a consideration n clinical trials. 15k per group is a pretty big trial, so assuming that randomisation is being done properly (which I do), the groups should be very well balanced for all the important factors. They may also have nested certain criteria in the study design to ensure balance; age, gender, certain co-morbidities etc. 

Based on what I have seen of the Moderna and BioNTech/Pfizer vaccines, these look like robust results. Neither has answered the long term effect yet, but there really isn't a good reason to assume it will fade faster than natural immunity, and some reason to think it may last longer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			As far as I can tell, the stat plan for the study assumed a lower effect size, more like 60%, so the study was set up based on 160-odd Covid cases having occurred which would have been enough to show an effect of the expected size, but because the effect size turned out to be higher, the number of cases ended to answer the statistical question occurred sooner at 95 cases. I haven't seen a p-value for that, but I would assume with that magnitude of difference, and to have triggered a public report, it has to be statistically significant.

The question of balance between groups, which is what I assume you mean by consistent exposure, is always a consideration n clinical trials. 15k per group is a pretty big trial, so assuming that randomisation is being done properly (which I do), the groups should be very well balanced for all the important factors. They may also have nested certain criteria in the study design to ensure balance; age, gender, certain co-morbidities etc.

Based on what I have seen of the Moderna and BioNTech/Pfizer vaccines, these look like robust results. Neither has answered the long term effect yet, but there really isn't a good reason to assume it will fade faster than natural immunity, and some reason to think it may last longer.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that explanation. Reassuring. 👍


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## Backache (Nov 17, 2020)

I think the fact that two  vaccines with similar technology in two different trials appear to have come out with virtually identical results means that we can be pretty confident that the effect is real and the effect size is probably a good estimate.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 17, 2020)

With the incredible speed and hopefully efficiency these vaccines have been produced at makes the conspiracist in me wonder if Covid and a potential vaccine have been around for a lot longer than we know about


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 17, 2020)

I suspect you are partly right, but for the conspiracy bit.
As I understand it,( Ethan will clarify), vaccines for all sorts of diseases etc are being worked on all the time.
And Covid19 is a type of virus that is not new, just the particular "bits of it" that make it so deadly ( in some).
So, attempting to make a vaccine for it doesn't mean you are starting at base 1.
Add to that , that it is a pandemic we're in, with all the associated disruptions as well as the high death count, and you can see why all the stops have been pulled out.


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## Ethan (Nov 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I suspect you are partly right, but for the conspiracy bit.
As I understand it,( Ethan will clarify), vaccines for all sorts of diseases etc are being worked on all the time.
And Covid19 is a type of virus that is not new, just the particular "bits of it" that make it so deadly ( in some).
So, attempting to make a vaccine for it doesn't mean you are starting at base 1.
Add to that , that it is a pandemic we're in, with all the associated disruptions as well as the high death count, and you can see why all the stops have been pulled out.
		
Click to expand...

Vaccines are often developed in piecemeal form, a bit of research, no rush, the paper is published, then a pharma company gets interested, does some more research, conducts the trials step by step with some downtime in between each, then seeks approval, the regulators take up to a year to review, then the company starts making it. The oft quoted 10 years is not representative of modern development, though. 

With Covid, there was a great deal more urgency and the genome was available, so instead of a lot of faffing around looking for how to attenuate or inactivate the live virus, it was possible to quickly make products resemble the genetic code of the protein spike, the funding was made available quickly, and clinical trials were varied out at the same time as manufacturing. The regulatory authorities agreed to review the package in parallel, so most of the saving has been in removing the wasted tome in between steps and doing stuff in parallel rather than series. The leading products contain no Covid, unlike most vaccines which contain some part of the target virus, inactivated or weekend in some way. 

Covid may have been around longer than we thought, but we didn't now at the time. The vaccine was definitely not available and is being developed as fast as possible compatible with safety and efficacy requirements.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I suspect you are partly right, but for the conspiracy bit.
As I understand it,( Ethan will clarify), vaccines for all sorts of diseases etc are being worked on all the time.
And Covid19 is a type of virus that is not new, just the particular "bits of it" that make it so deadly ( in some).
So, attempting to make a vaccine for it doesn't mean you are starting at base 1.
Add to that , that it is a pandemic we're in, with all the associated disruptions as well as the high death count, and you can see why all the stops have been pulled out.
		
Click to expand...

Not to mention all the additional millions of pounds/dollars that are being thrown at finding a vaccine that in normal times wouldn't be available.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 17, 2020)

Finally David seems through this in terms of fever and 48 hours without an upward spike in temperature - thank goodness.

Dogs and me are happy that I'm free to take them on nice long walks again.

It's the simple things...


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Finally David seems through this in terms of fever and 48 hours without an upward spike in temperature - thank goodness.

Dogs and me are happy that I'm free to take them on nice long walks again.

It's the simple things...
		
Click to expand...

That's good news but make sure he takes it easy. From those I know that have had it quite badly it really knocks them for six for a few weeks


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## AmandaJR (Nov 17, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			That's good news but make sure he takes it easy. From those I know that have had it quite badly it really knocks them for six for a few weeks
		
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Agreed and to be honest he's not up to doing much but might try a short walk with the dogs tomorrow. I'm frustratingly ok until I exert myself and I like to exert myself!


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## DRW (Nov 17, 2020)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2798-3

I know I posted up this link before, but well worth a read over vaccine developments etc and the existing technology was there. Some have been planning for pathogen X for years, which is covid 19.


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## road2ruin (Nov 17, 2020)

Listening to BBC Radio 5 this morning the discussion is about the vaccine. The general theme is the contempt towards those who are either refusing or unsure whether they would have the new vaccine, these people should not be allowed NHS care if they refuse as it is a morally correct to have any available vaccine. 

For me there are two camps, there are the real anti-vaxxers who wouldn't take any vaccine regardless of the amount of testing and proof of efficacy and safety. There are then those who are simply unsure and have an element of concern about any vaccine that has been put through at this speed. I would myself in the second camp, I have had every vaccine that I should have done as has my daughter and she will continue to have them however I do have my concerns about this present vaccines especially given that I am in an age group that is incredibly unlikely to develop complications from Covid. I do understand the argument that my having the vaccine I am protecting others so it is not sure for myself however I will need more convincing before I add myself to the line. That said I will be towards the back of the queue anyway so I will probably have enough time to get a fuller understanding. Even on the radio the phrase is used "they have been as diligent as they can be" which doesn't exactly inspire confidence. 

What I am saying is that I don't think people who aren't immediately lining up to have the vaccine should be lumped together as being pariahs within society.


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## Ethan (Nov 17, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Listening to BBC Radio 5 this morning the discussion is about the vaccine. The general theme is the contempt towards those who are either refusing or unsure whether they would have the new vaccine, these people should not be allowed NHS care if they refuse as it is a morally correct to have any available vaccine.

For me there are two camps, there are the real anti-vaxxers who wouldn't take any vaccine regardless of the amount of testing and proof of efficacy and safety. There are then those who are simply unsure and have an element of concern about any vaccine that has been put through at this speed. I would myself in the second camp, I have had every vaccine that I should have done as has my daughter and she will continue to have them however I do have my concerns about this present vaccines especially given that I am in an age group that is incredibly unlikely to develop complications from Covid. I do understand the argument that my having the vaccine I am protecting others so it is not sure for myself however I will need more convincing before I add myself to the line. That said I will be towards the back of the queue anyway so I will probably have enough time to get a fuller understanding. Even on the radio the phrase is used "they have been as diligent as they can be" which doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

What I am saying is that I don't think people who aren't immediately lining up to have the vaccine should be lumped together as being pariahs within society.
		
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As you say, your situation will take care of itself if you are in a low priority age group.

There are two elements in the vaccine debate. One is personal benefit-risk assessment, the second is societal responsibility.

As far as personal benefit-risk goes, that is mostly to do with age and co-morbidities, ethnicity and weight are factors, and your personal attitude to risk. Average people don't understand risk very well, especially new and unfamiliar risks. 

Societal responsibility is more of a contentious issue. If this was about motorcycle helmets, there isn't much societal responsibility. You come off your bike with a head injury, you are in a vegetative state until your organs are harvested for transplant recipients, end of story. But with Covid, you can transmit it to others and you can consume a large amount of healthcare resources. Have you a right to expect other people to accept the risk of catching it from you, or to consume several hundred thousand pounds of ICU costs and maybe displace another patient from a ventilator?

The Covid vaccine will not be mandatory in the UK. There are all sorts of ethical and practical problems with even trying to do so and it would never get through Parliament. But there is a case for requiring proof of vaccination or immunity (unless a very strong reason not to have it) for incoming travellers, certain jobs and arguably school and college. The argument in favour is that it will never be possible to get universal vaccination and as long as there is Covid in the wild, vulnerable people, those with immune disorders, very elderly, cancer sufferers etc, will never be safe.

The anti-vaxxers are in large part tied up in the culture war. Many have predictable views on other major questions of the moment. I don't think much air should be given to full on Bill Gates/5G/nanobot conspiracy theorists. The people who come out with the 'vaccine development takes 10 years, this is being rushed and corners cut' need to have the timelines broken down for them. Some corners are being cut, but not those which ensure safety and reliability.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			With the incredible speed and hopefully efficiency these vaccines have been produced at makes the conspiracist in me wonder if Covid and a potential vaccine have been around for a lot longer than we know about 

Click to expand...

..and so all those who have known about the coronavirus and have been working on a vaccine for years have all kept quiet about it and the risk if the coronavirus got 'out' and into the community.

All those 100s - 1000s over the years - of scientists in multiple pharma companies and research departments all over the world kept quiet about it.  Why would they?  What would be in it for them?  Not a single whistleblower?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2020)

Thinking that those at the head of the queue for the vaccine should perhaps be those in front-line medical, nursing and healthcare - and not necessarily the elderly and vulnerable (as emotive and potentially unpopular as that might be).  Logic is simply that the elderly and vulnerable can be shielded from the virus - but they need looking after.  Sort out those who do the 'looking after' and who care for and treat those of us who are hospitalized by Covid19 and so need the protection a vaccine will afford.  The elderly and vulnerable can be physically shielded and would not be exposed to risk from their vaccinated carers.  Then when the front-line 'carers' are sorted move to the elderly and vulnerable.


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## Ethan (Nov 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thinking that those at the head of the queue for the vaccine should perhaps be those in front-line medical, nursing and healthcare - and not necessarily the elderly and vulnerable (as emotive and potentially unpopular as that might be).  Logic is simply that the elderly and vulnerable can be shielded from the virus - but they need looking after.  Sort out those who do the 'looking after' and who care for and treat those of us who are hospitalized by Covid19 and so need the protection a vaccine will afford.  Then when the front-line 'carers' are sorted move to the elderly and vulnerable.
		
Click to expand...

The criteria are designed partly for simplicity, with only the vulnerable, NHS and care workers selected out and everything else by age, even though there are other factors that influence risk. Arguably overweight or diabetic BAME men should be higher up the list. I assume that in practice it will happen in parallel, with NHS and care workers mostly getting their vaccine at the workplace and the vulnerable getting theirs through GPs, so as long as there is enough vaccine, shouldn't be any real delays in that sector. Administration staff and time is likely to be the main rate-limiting step.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 17, 2020)

Just back from taking younger Colch jnr for his 2nd Covid test. We're almost certain that he doesn't have it as he's got a croupy cough but the school won't let him go back until he's got a negative result.


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## DRW (Nov 17, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Listening to BBC Radio 5 this morning the discussion is about the vaccine. The general theme is the contempt towards those who are either refusing or unsure whether they would have the new vaccine, these people should not be allowed NHS care if they refuse as it is a morally correct to have any available vaccine.

For me there are two camps, there are the real anti-vaxxers who wouldn't take any vaccine regardless of the amount of testing and proof of efficacy and safety. There are then those who are simply unsure and have an element of concern about any vaccine that has been put through at this speed. I would myself in the second camp, I have had every vaccine that I should have done as has my daughter and she will continue to have them however I do have my concerns about this present vaccines especially given that I am in an age group that is incredibly unlikely to develop complications from Covid. I do understand the argument that my having the vaccine I am protecting others so it is not sure for myself however I will need more convincing before I add myself to the line. That said I will be towards the back of the queue anyway so I will probably have enough time to get a fuller understanding. Even on the radio the phrase is used "they have been as diligent as they can be" which doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

What I am saying is that I don't think people who aren't immediately lining up to have the vaccine should be lumped together as being pariahs within society.
		
Click to expand...

I find the currently theme of trying to push people into the 'outliner' category as worrying. An outliner as you touch on is someone who is never going to have a vaccine and the mad people who wish to believe in 5G etc.

We need to engage with and discuss it with people who wish to, and give details, rather than trying to put the fear or almost ordering them into it. I like you believe completely in vaccines and that they are one of the medical wonders over the years, saving millions of people over time.

I am someone who is cautious and risk adverse. To paint a picture I haven't been inside anybody's house for instance since March, not in a clubhouse, even built a studwork plastic 'room within a room' for my mum, so she could come round. Yeah I'm pretty risk adverse, maybe an outliner there.

Personally I would love to see the vaccines being used for say 1-2 years to see if any medium/longer term effects(I fall into cat 10 on the vaccine list btw, so the choice will be made sooner than that for me), hopefully the question of efficiency is now being answered as a massive positive, so the vaccine to me appears a real benefit rather than say a 50% vaccine. Two in the family have had ramifications of medicines (one is used by loads of people use and the other was a trial drug[which was a god send tbh, and very grateful dad got on the trial, as it prolonged his useful life by years]), so am a little wary.

However for my mum, she needs a vaccine now, life is to short for her, she also has underlying conditions etc, she is high risk category, not getting out much and so on, she would take the vaccine now without any other thought and understandably.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The criteria are designed partly for simplicity, with only the vulnerable, NHS and care workers selected out and everything else by age, even though there are other factors that influence risk. Arguably overweight or diabetic BAME men should be higher up the list. I assume that in practice it will happen in parallel, with NHS and care workers mostly getting their vaccine at the workplace and the vulnerable getting theirs through GPs, so as long as there is enough vaccine, shouldn't be any real delays in that sector. Administration staff and time is likely to be the main rate-limiting step.
		
Click to expand...

Yup - you wouldn't think it would be that difficult for a 'vaccination unit' to be set up in every hospital with all front-line staff booked to pop along for their vaccination(s) - and new staff just get included as part of the 'induction/joining' in much the same way as they'd have the photo-ID sorted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2020)

DRW said:



			I find the currently theme of trying to push people into the 'outliner' category as worrying. An outliner as you touch on is someone who is never going to have a vaccine and the mad people who wish to believe in 5G etc.

We need to engage with and discuss it with people who wish to, and give details, rather than trying to put the fear or almost ordering them into it. I like you believe completely in vaccines and that they are one of the medical wonders over the years, saving millions of people over time.

I am someone who is cautious and risk adverse. To paint a picture I haven't been inside anybody's house for instance since March, not in a clubhouse, even built a studwork plastic 'room within a room' for my mum, so she could come round. Yeah I'm pretty risk adverse, maybe an outliner there.

Personally I would love to see the vaccines being used for say 1-2 years to see if any medium/longer term effects(I fall into cat 10 on the vaccine list btw, so the choice will be made sooner than that for me), hopefully the question of efficiency is now being answered as a massive positive, so the vaccine to me appears a real benefit rather than say a 50% vaccine. Two in the family have had ramifications of medicines (one is used by loads of people use and the other was a trial drug[which was a god send tbh, and very grateful dad got on the trial, as it prolonged his useful life by years]), so am a little wary.

However for my mum, she needs a vaccine now, life is to short for her, she also has underlying conditions etc, she is high risk category, not getting out much and so on, she would take the vaccine now without any other thought and understandably.
		
Click to expand...

Unless I have any underlying condition(s) that mean the vaccination would present a significant risk to me then I must play my part in 'validating' the efficacy and safety of the vaccination.  I can't stand aside and let others take any risk there might be on my behalf.


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## DRW (Nov 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unless I have any underlying condition(s) that mean the vaccination would present a significant risk to me then I must play my part in 'validating' the efficacy and safety of the vaccination.  I can't stand aside and let others take any risk there might be on my behalf.
		
Click to expand...

I don't disagree and is all part of the decision process.   

I would imagine I will be down the doctors when my number comes up, with fingers, toes crossed and hair platted.


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## Mudball (Nov 17, 2020)

After Bog rolls, a new interesting reason to raid Aldi >> https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...avirus-within-30-seconds-study-finds-12134289


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## SaintHacker (Nov 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and so all those who have known about the coronavirus and have been working on a vaccine for years have all kept quiet about it and the risk if the coronavirus got 'out' and into the community.

All those 100s - 1000s over the years - of scientists in multiple pharma companies and research departments all over the world kept quiet about it.  Why would they?  What would be in it for them?  Not a single whistleblower?
		
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You're painting me as some kind of tin foil hat wearing flat earther, which I'm not. I'm simoly saying i believe there is a bit more to this whole saga than meets the eye


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## SaintHacker (Nov 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thinking that those at the head of the queue for the vaccine should perhaps be those in front-line medical, nursing and healthcare - and not necessarily the elderly and vulnerable (as emotive and potentially unpopular as that might be).  Logic is simply that the elderly and vulnerable can be shielded from the virus - but they need looking after.  Sort out those who do the 'looking after' and who care for and treat those of us who are hospitalized by Covid19 and so need the protection a vaccine will afford.  The elderly and vulnerable can be physically shielded and would not be exposed to risk from their vaccinated carers.  Then when the front-line 'carers' are sorted move to the elderly and vulnerable.
		
Click to expand...

But why shouls they be sheilded any more? By nature that group generally have the shortest time left on earth anyway even without a virus, if a vaccine is available get them treated so they can enjoy what tie they have left not cooped up indoors scared to go out just in case. The rest of us who aren't going to be affected nearly as badly  if we catch it can wait a bit longer.


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2020)

How following the rules makes a difference.

3 weeks ago we had 76 confirmed cases in the village. A spike from 0 to 76 in 2 weeks. Admittedly, when a mayor over here locks down a town or village it is LOCKED DOWN. Fines are a great deterrence. But, equally, families are very well supported. Social Services, supported by the Guardia Local visit every day.

Today's figure is 1 case, and no still no deaths.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			After Bog rolls, a new interesting reason to raid Aldi >> https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...avirus-within-30-seconds-study-finds-12134289

Click to expand...

All you need to know is when you were infected and use the mouthwash within 30 seconds then, simples.  Mrs BiM uses mouthwash religiously & still got infected.

When the enquiry into this starts leave the politicians to second; the press & the media should be the first to explain themselves for some of the  they've spouted.


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## 4LEX (Nov 17, 2020)

I know the Oxford and AstraZeneca vaccine is expected to cost £2 per dose with profits capped at 20%. But I wonder what percentage will be available privately for all of these vaccines and the cost?

I make no excuses I wouldn't wait for the NHS to get my hands on one.


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## Old Skier (Nov 17, 2020)

We keep getting figures on how many vaccines have been purchased for England, has anything been published on how many our devolved governments have bought/order to support the needs areas of responsibility.


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## DRW (Nov 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We keep getting figures on how many vaccines have been purchased for England, has anything been published on how many our devolved governments have bought/order to support the needs areas of responsibility.
		
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Think its for the whole of the UK, the announcements made, rather than for england :-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ion-of-efficacy-data-for-its-covid-19-vaccine

*Further information on UK vaccines*
We will know whether the vaccine meets robust standards of safety and effectiveness once their safety data has been published, and only then can the medicines regulator can consider whether it can be made it available to the public

We have secured early access to over 350 million vaccines doses through agreements with several separate vaccine developers at various stages of trials, including:


100 million doses of University of Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
40 million doses of BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
60 million doses of Novavax vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
60 million doses of Valneva vaccine – pre-clinical trials
60 million doses of GSK/Sanofi Pasteur vaccine – phase 1 clinical trials
30 million doses of Janssen vaccine – phase 2 clinical trials


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## Billysboots (Nov 17, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			When the enquiry into this starts leave the politicians to second; the press & the media should be the first to explain themselves for some of the  they've spouted.
		
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Absolutely spot on. In the main they have been an utter disgrace.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Finally David seems through this in terms of fever and 48 hours without an upward spike in temperature - thank goodness.

Dogs and me are happy that I'm free to take them on nice long walks again.

It's the simple things...
		
Click to expand...

Chuffed that things are looking up, me and Missis T at the moment have come this far relatively unscathed. We have had a few natters , one of which has been around the thinking that “ some folk may well look at things a bit differently with this  Covid”.
Whats your thoughts Amanda me duck.


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## Mudball (Nov 17, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			All you need to know is when you were infected and use the mouthwash within 30 seconds then, simples.  Mrs BiM uses mouthwash religiously & still got infected.

When the enquiry into this starts leave the politicians to second; the press & the media should be the first to explain themselves for some of the  they've spouted.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with that we need a lot of explanation from press & media.

However, back to the mouthwash study...  it does not say it prevents or stops Covid.  All it says is that it reduces the level of infection in patient's saliva.  This should come as no surprise,.. if you pour alcohol on saliva, it is bound to kill the virus. Its the same as asking you to clean ur hands with a gel.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 17, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Chuffed that things are looking up, me and Missis T at the moment have come this far relatively unscathed. We have had a few natters , one of which has been around the thinking that “ some folk may well look at things a bit differently with this  Covid”.
Whats your thoughts Amanda me duck.
		
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Differently in what way? In terms of whether it's something worth the effort to avoid - 100%. We've always been of that mindset though.


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## ger147 (Nov 17, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Looks like a big chunk of the west of Scotland is heading towards Tier 4, which is basically a lockdown i.e. all hospitality venues and non-essentail shops closed etc. More grim news as 2020 staggers towards its end.

Official announcement will be tomorrow but we've been prepared to expect the worst.
		
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That's a huge chunk of central Scotland now into Tier 4 and Tier 3&4 travel restrictions being upgraded from guidance to legislation.


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## yandabrown (Nov 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			After Bog rolls, a new interesting reason to raid Aldi >> https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...avirus-within-30-seconds-study-finds-12134289

Click to expand...

So we all need to walk around with a mouthwash filled bong strapped to our backs and everything can go back to normal


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## Tashyboy (Nov 17, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Differently in what way? In terms of whether it's something worth the effort to avoid - 100%. We've always been of that mindset though.
		
Click to expand...

👍
Ave spoke to pals who before Covid were happy going out Friday & Saturday nights and having a skinful. Now there not bothered. And certainly not in packed pubs. A Bessie pal who had Covid back in April and his wife who now has Lupus, they have a Beadle. They have spent hours walking him. They did before, but they reckon it’s just a differant feeling, they enjoy it more. As you have said “ the simple things”.


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## Whereditgo (Nov 17, 2020)

At a site meeting late last week the client couldn't attend as he was self isolating owing to his wife having tested positive. Today I discover that the very next day he decided to visit the site to speak with our site lead and the client has now tested positive himself!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I agree with that we need a lot of explanation from press & media.

However, back to the mouthwash study...  it does not say it prevents or stops Covid.  All it says is that it reduces the level of infection in patient's saliva.  This should come as no surprise,.. if you pour alcohol on saliva, it is bound to kill the virus. Its the same as asking you to clean ur hands with a gel.
		
Click to expand...

The Science of the Virus misunderstood or misrepresented - just as The Statistics of the Pandemic.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 17, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			At a site meeting late last week the client couldn't attend as he was self isolating owing to his wife having tested positive. Today I discover that the very next day he decided to visit the site to speak with our site lead and the client has now tested positive himself! 

Click to expand...

similar to a PP who said His wife was not well. He played a round with us then booked a Covid test The day after. Him and his wife were positive. Tash had to isolate for 9 days  🤬


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## Ethan (Nov 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I agree with that we need a lot of explanation from press & media.

However, back to the mouthwash study...  it does not say it prevents or stops Covid.  All it says is that it reduces the level of infection in patient's saliva.  This should come as no surprise,.. if you pour alcohol on saliva, it is bound to kill the virus. Its the same as asking you to clean ur hands with a gel.
		
Click to expand...

It may well kill Covid at the time you gargle but you can't have a mouth full of mouthwash all the time, and Covid can also enter via the eyes. I don't think this is a game changer, apart from for Aldi mouthwash sales.


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## Billysboots (Nov 17, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			similar to a PP who said His wife was not well. He played a round with us then booked a Covid test The day after. Him and his wife were positive. Tash had to isolate for 9 days  🤬
		
Click to expand...

I think he might have ended up wearing my gap wedge.


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## Ethan (Nov 17, 2020)

DRW said:



			Think its for the whole of the UK, the announcements made, rather than for england :-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ion-of-efficacy-data-for-its-covid-19-vaccine

*Further information on UK vaccines*
We will know whether the vaccine meets robust standards of safety and effectiveness once their safety data has been published, and only then can the medicines regulator can consider whether it can be made it available to the public

We have secured early access to over 350 million vaccines doses through agreements with several separate vaccine developers at various stages of trials, including:


100 million doses of University of Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
40 million doses of BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
60 million doses of Novavax vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
60 million doses of Valneva vaccine – pre-clinical trials
60 million doses of GSK/Sanofi Pasteur vaccine – phase 1 clinical trials
30 million doses of Janssen vaccine – phase 2 clinical trials


Click to expand...

Some of these vaccines will take a while to appear. The Oxford/AZ, Moderna and BioNTech are well known now, the Novavax and one of the Sanofi vaccs (they have 2) are broadly similar to those too, Valneva is an inactivated virus vaccine, so a bit old school by comparison. However, I predict that one will not be as effective as Moderna and BioNTech.  

Without wishing to delve into forbidden forum territory, that list makes Matt Hancock's comment that Moderna wasn't ordered earlier because it wasn't going to be available until Spring look, ahem, odd, since at least 3 of those clearly won't be available until some time later.


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## User62651 (Nov 17, 2020)

Relieved to have got through a tiers revision today with no change, 11 local authorities moved into tier 4 though, clearly r number not improving, likely worsening there. Seems the more rural you are the safer you are, logical of course. Grim times but truly thankful to be missing the worst of it...... for now.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 17, 2020)

found this on Sky news which was reported earlier today.  Couple of things about it. Primarily the Italians say they have proof that it was in Europe much earlier than originally thought. But does it mean the Covid originally started in Wuhan. 

Coronavirus was circulating in Italy as early as September 2019, scientists there have claimed.

The World Health Organization says *COVID-19* was unknown before the outbreak was first reported in *Wuhan*, in central China, in December. A few months later, the first official cases were detected in Europe.


However, scientists in *Italy* say they have found evidence the virus was circulating much sooner by checking blood samples of patients taking part in a cancer study.


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## Hobbit (Nov 17, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			found this on Sky news which was reported earlier today.  Couple of things about it. Primarily the Italians say they have proof that it was in Europe much earlier than originally thought. But does it mean the Covid originally started in Wuhan.

Coronavirus was circulating in Italy as early as September 2019, scientists there have claimed.

The World Health Organization says *COVID-19* was unknown before the outbreak was first reported in *Wuhan*, in central China, in December. A few months later, the first official cases were detected in Europe.


However, scientists in *Italy* say they have found evidence the virus was circulating much sooner by checking blood samples of patients taking part in a cancer study.
		
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There was a brief news piece around mid-March that suggested it had started in the USA, but it never seemed to gain much traction with the media. Never saw a follow up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			There was a brief news piece around mid-March that suggested it had started in the USA, but it never seemed to gain much traction with the media. Never saw a follow up.
		
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I read that Bri, all revolved around Trump closing down some of their CDC sites, including one in Hawaii, then we had some of the American Military taking part in an Athletics event in Wuhan and a few being admitted to hospital while there with flu like symptoms!

Proper tin foil hat stuff. Here’s one story:
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/chinese-officials-blame-us-army-for-coronavirus-67267/amp


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## 4LEX (Nov 17, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			found this on Sky news which was reported earlier today.  Couple of things about it. Primarily the Italians say they have proof that it was in Europe much earlier than originally thought. But does it mean the Covid originally started in Wuhan.

Coronavirus was circulating in Italy as early as September 2019, scientists there have claimed.

The World Health Organization says *COVID-19* was unknown before the outbreak was first reported in *Wuhan*, in central China, in December. A few months later, the first official cases were detected in Europe.


However, scientists in *Italy* say they have found evidence the virus was circulating much sooner by checking blood samples of patients taking part in a cancer study.
		
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Question marks over this. If it was in Europe in September 2019, with no social distancing, being very infectious and over the winter/flu season too, why did it take over five months to become prevalent?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 17, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I agree with that we need a lot of explanation from press & media.

However, back to the mouthwash study...  it does not say it prevents or stops Covid.  All it says is that it reduces the level of infection in patient's saliva.  This should come as no surprise,.. if you pour alcohol on saliva, it is bound to kill the virus. Its the same as asking you to clean ur hands with a gel.
		
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What about Whisky?


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## drdel (Nov 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What about Whisky?
		
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I knew I'd find a use for that old silver hip flasķ I got as a present when I took up golf donkey's years ago.


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## Beedee (Nov 17, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What about Whisky?
		
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iirc it has to be 70% proof


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 18, 2020)

Beedee said:



			iirc it has to be 70% proof
		
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Just like my blood alcohol level. 

Keep it that high and virus can't get you. 

You're welcome.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 18, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Question marks over this. If it was in Europe in September 2019, with no social distancing, being very infectious and over the winter/flu season too, why did it take over five months to become prevalent?
		
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when I saw it I thought it asks more questions than it answers. I remember April or May time. The french reckoned they had found Covid in there waste water samples back in November. I thought the same then Re being infectious.


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## Ethan (Nov 18, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What about Whisky?
		
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Should work too. No data on whether keeping your blood level of whisky at a constant high level is protective, though.


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## Imurg (Nov 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Should work too. No data on whether keeping your blood level of whisky at a constant high level is protective, though.
		
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But then if itat that level you probably don't care.?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Just back from taking younger Colch jnr for his 2nd Covid test. We're almost certain that he doesn't have it as he's got a croupy cough but the school won't let him go back until he's got a negative result.
		
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As we expected a negative result. I don't know if they are finally getting the issues around testing sorted or if we've just been lucky both times we've had to get tested. Went online yesterday morning at 9am and booked a test at a drive through testing centre less than 10 miles from home for 10-30. Test results came back at 7-15 this morning.


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## Ethan (Nov 18, 2020)

Imurg said:



			But then if itat that level you probably don't care.?
		
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That is true, and some of the symptoms of Covid would be unnoticeable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 18, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Relieved to have got through a tiers revision today with no change, 11 local authorities moved into tier 4 though, clearly r number not improving, likely worsening there. Seems the more rural you are the safer you are, logical of course. Grim times but truly thankful to be missing the worst of it...... for now.
		
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Surprised to find South Ayrshire has moved into level 4.
My NHS contacts say it has more to do with protecting the two big hospitals in Kilmarnock and Ayr.
Folk in the very rural South of the region towards Stranraer must be a bit pissed off though.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Surprised to find South Ayrshire has moved into level 4.
My NHS contacts say it has more to do with protecting the two big hospitals in Kilmarnock and Ayr.
Folk in the very rural South of the region towards Stranraer must be a bit pissed off though.
		
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unfortunately that is the case re pissed off. Mansfield had nigh on no cases when Nottingham was sky high. In the space of a week we went from stage 1, possibly going up to 2, last minute we went into 3. Then the national lockdown ( and I use that term very loosly).
Ironically our MP Ben Bradley was asking why we are going into stage 3 when 2 would suffice. Within a few days Mansfield’s levels were high so it was the correct thing to do going to 3. Those in the Stranraer region may be bogged off. But it could be a case 
of “ a stitch in time could save nine”.
#staysafedoon


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## GB72 (Nov 18, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Surprised to find South Ayrshire has moved into level 4.
My NHS contacts say it has more to do with protecting the two big hospitals in Kilmarnock and Ayr.
Folk in the very rural South of the region towards Stranraer must be a bit pissed off though.
		
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It is the case for a lot of rural communities. I live in the back end of nowhere, most people work locally and trips to larger towns and cities are rare and so cases are pretty much unheard of but we will be bundled in with the rest of the county when it comes to what tier we are in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is the case for a lot of rural communities. I live in the back end of nowhere, most people work locally and trips to larger towns and cities are rare and so cases are pretty much unheard of but we will be bundled in with the rest of the county when it comes to what tier we are in.
		
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You don't have to be in deepest rural England.  We are not high on the infection per 100k - but as out local hospitals both have 'catchment' areas that are much higher rate, then we must accept that even though our risk is perhaps quite low we cannot contribute to risk of overloading of our hospitals.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 18, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You don't have to be in deepest rural England.  We are not high on the infection per 100k - but as out local hospitals both have 'catchment' areas that are much higher rate, then we must accept that even though our risk is perhaps quite low we cannot contribute to risk of overloading of our hospitals.
		
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This, bottom line no one wants Covid, least of all when hospitals are rammed and drs and consultants have to make decisions on who is going to ICU and who wont be going. Covid don’t know if your from a quiet low risk rural area or a high risk area.


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## garyinderry (Nov 18, 2020)

News today they are thinking of relaxing restrictions for 5 days? 


Sounds like a recipe for disaster.


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## triple_bogey (Nov 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I read that Bri, all revolved around Trump closing down some of their CDC sites, including one in Hawaii, then we had some of the American Military taking part in an Athletics event in Wuhan and a few being admitted to hospital while there with flu like symptoms!

Proper tin foil hat stuff. Here’s one story:
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/chinese-officials-blame-us-army-for-coronavirus-67267/amp

Click to expand...

Following on from you're link: Check the dates.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/respirato...community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865

This care home is very near to Fort Detrick aswell. Which was mysteriously shut down last year.


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## DRW (Nov 18, 2020)

triple_bogey said:



			Following on from you're link: Check the dates.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/respirato...community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865

This care home is very near to Fort Detrick aswell. Which was mysteriously shut down last year.
		
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Heres one for March 19...Spain

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-science-idUSKBN23X2HQ

I can see that small outbreaks could burn themselves out, if the wrong people in the wrong places got it and it wouldn't be pick up until a much bigger outbreak happens.

I know they say the genome(sp?) sequencing doesn't imply that it was in circulation in masses of people before the big outbreak in China.

Fun to read about, how much truth in all of it, pass


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## User62651 (Nov 18, 2020)

Getting slightly irked by this 'Christmas Factor' that seems to be touted as above all else in importance and that somehow not having a normal Christmas is so terrible that covid restrictions must be temporarily lifted for a few days in December. It's once - we had a normal one last year and it looks like next year should be normal too given the vaccine progress. Keeping people alive and covid free is way more important than a religious/secular (delete as appropriate) festival/holiday.
The large social gatherings side of Christmas needs to be dropped this year, tough yes but needed - any singles can join a family group as their bubble extra. Kids can still have a decent Christmas with their immediate family.

If a normal Christmas is/was had by all with people traveling all over the UK and beyond to family, the infections 2 weeks later could be horrific. Not worth it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 18, 2020)

Yes, hopin


maxfli65 said:



			Getting slightly irked by this 'Christmas Factor' that seems to be touted as above all else in importance and that somehow not having a normal Christmas is so terrible that covid restrictions must be temporarily lifted for a few days in December. It's once - we had a normal one last year and it looks like next year should be normal too given the vaccine progress. Keeping people alive and covid free is way more important than a religious/secular (delete as appropriate) festival/holiday.
The large social gatherings side of Christmas needs to be dropped this year, tough yes but needed - any singles can join a family group as their bubble extra. Kids can still have a decent Christmas with their immediate family.

If a normal Christmas is/was had by all with people traveling all over the UK and beyond to family, the infections 2 weeks later could be horrific. Not worth it.
		
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Brilliantly put. 
Would be a very useful exercise if this could be put in front of every decision maker, with orders to read it, every day between now and December.!


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## AmandaJR (Nov 18, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Getting slightly irked by this 'Christmas Factor' that seems to be touted as above all else in importance and that somehow not having a normal Christmas is so terrible that covid restrictions must be temporarily lifted for a few days in December. It's once - we had a normal one last year and it looks like next year should be normal too given the vaccine progress. Keeping people alive and covid free is way more important than a religious/secular (delete as appropriate) festival/holiday.
The large social gatherings side of Christmas needs to be dropped this year, tough yes but needed - any singles can join a family group as their bubble extra. Kids can still have a decent Christmas with their immediate family.

If a normal Christmas is/was had by all with people traveling all over the UK and beyond to family, the infections 2 weeks later could be horrific. Not worth it.
		
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Agreed 100%. It's just one year that will be affected. Get on with it. Embrace the change and use your imagination to make the most of it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Getting slightly irked by this 'Christmas Factor' that seems to be touted as above all else in importance and that somehow not having a normal Christmas is so terrible that covid restrictions must be temporarily lifted for a few days in December. It's once - we had a normal one last year and it looks like next year should be normal too given the vaccine progress. Keeping people alive and covid free is way more important than a religious/secular (delete as appropriate) festival/holiday.
The large social gatherings side of Christmas needs to be dropped this year, tough yes but needed - any singles can join a family group as their bubble extra. Kids can still have a decent Christmas with their immediate family.

If a normal Christmas is/was had by all with people traveling all over the UK and beyond to family, the infections 2 weeks later could be horrific. Not worth it.
		
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Indeed - and as much as Advent and Christmas Day are clearly very important in the Christian calendar (noting that Advent is a real thing for me and not just chocolates behind little doors of calendar  ) most of us so inclined in any congregation are able to celebrate without the need to gather together under the one roof.   Remembering that for Christians, Easter is actually the more important festival - even although most will celebrate Christmas as a wider family celebration.  Would just have to miss out on the family get togethers - and OK - so be it.


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 18, 2020)

We have all decided that we are not getting together for Xmas. We usually see near 30 people indoors at close quarters over a couple of days.

This year, if rules allow, we will be 5 people sat 1m+ apart for a meal and no staying overnight.

We will not be having a normal Xmas as this could easily wipe out a whole generation of friends and family.


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## Reemul (Nov 18, 2020)

Just had a confirmation from my Golf Club that we can start booking rounds for 2 weeks time due to the club likely to re open.

They have said no changes except no non members for the first week only. They have said anyone 2 ball or 3 ball spots will be filled up with non members who wish to play or members if there is no room.

Now generally i have no issue with this, however if they are worried about over crowding how about stopping non members for now, I mean I renewed my year regardless of the issues. Secondly I play only with my son, we live together, I don't want to play with a stranger or strangers because if they do get Covid I will need to self isolate as well apparently as will my son. I wish to stay within my family bubble and I don't think that is unreasonable, I already minimize who I come in to contact with, work from home, don't go out outside of my family circle.

Little bit frustrated, fishing is still going but no day tickets for non members just us members and we can easily keep decent space from others.

Not sure i have a solution as I appreciate the club need the income but certainly not helping me at all.


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## robinthehood (Nov 18, 2020)

Daughter back to school tomoroow after 2 weeks of isloating due to close contact with the infected.


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

Debate on golf in HOC Monday


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 18, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Finally David seems through this in terms of fever and 48 hours without an upward spike in temperature - thank goodness.

Dogs and me are happy that I'm free to take them on nice long walks again.

*It's the simple things...*

Click to expand...

Bit harsh on David...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Debate on golf in HOC Monday
		
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Are you sure that it is to be debated in the House or is it,  as is more usual I believe, one for Westminster Hall?

Either way I don't foresee it having much effect.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 18, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Getting slightly irked by this 'Christmas Factor' that seems to be touted as above all else in importance and that somehow not having a normal Christmas is so terrible that covid restrictions must be temporarily lifted for a few days in December. It's once - we had a normal one last year and it looks like next year should be normal too given the vaccine progress. Keeping people alive and covid free is way more important than a religious/secular (delete as appropriate) festival/holiday.
The large social gatherings side of Christmas needs to be dropped this year, tough yes but needed - any singles can join a family group as their bubble extra. Kids can still have a decent Christmas with their immediate family.

If a normal Christmas is/was had by all with people traveling all over the UK and beyond to family, the infections 2 weeks later could be horrific. Not worth it.
		
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Well said sir.


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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Are you sure that it is to be debated in the House or is it,  as is more usual I believe, one for Westminster Hall?

Either way I don't foresee it having much effect.
		
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## Old Skier (Nov 18, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			News today they are thinking of relaxing restrictions for 5 days?


Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
		
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Media rumour started by the Sun and given headline status by the BBC.


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## Ethan (Nov 18, 2020)

garyinderry said:



			News today they are thinking of relaxing restrictions for 5 days?


Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
		
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Apart for the ethical issues of allowing more cases and some deaths to pay for this relaxation, do they really think they can control this? There could be an explosion of cases at the end of Dec/start of January.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Apart for the ethical issues of allowing more cases and some deaths to pay for this relaxation, do they really think they can control this? There could be an explosion of cases at the end of Dec/start of January.
		
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This ties into what I think could happen. We get a surge in the first week of 2021 and so go into a more stringent lockdown than we have at the moment for January and into February.


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## Ethan (Nov 18, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			This ties into what I think could happen. We get a surge in the first week of 2021 and so go into a more stringent lockdown than we have at the moment for January and into February.
		
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It will happen, with an intense period of people from different households mixing indoors, on top of the tiered relaxation to allow shopping and economic activity. It is possible to estimate the effect on cases of lockdown but I don't think it is possible to know the effect of relaxing it like this. It could be horrendous.


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## ger147 (Nov 18, 2020)

ger147 said:



			That's a huge chunk of central Scotland now into Tier 4 and Tier 3&4 travel restrictions being upgraded from guidance to legislation.
		
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Some good news for us golfers at least, clubhouses and pro shops to close but the courses will remain open in the Tier 4 areas in Scotland over the next 3 weeks, so at least I can still get out of the house for a wee while at the weekend.


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## garyinderry (Nov 18, 2020)

With the deaths around Europe beginning to soar again. 

Having a free for all at Christmas might be unthinkable. 

The decision in all likelihood  could be taken out of the politicians hands by then.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Media rumour started by the Sun and given headline status by the BBC.
		
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..and Sky News.  And probably every other main news outlet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It will happen, with an intense period of people from different households mixing indoors, on top of the tiered relaxation to allow shopping and economic activity. It is possible to estimate the effect on cases of lockdown but I don't think it is possible to know the effect of relaxing it like this. It could be horrendous.
		
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...add in the mayhem on the roads as public transport is avoided and there is a huge movement of people across the country in a very concentrated window to take advantage of relaxations - hardly bears thinking about.

And imagine being a health professional spending Christmas with a potentially horrid situation in hospitals looming.  I think I can guess what for many who work in hospitals would be their best Christmas present...and that would be for us all to behave and interact with other household as we are currently doing over Christmas.  Christmas will never be cancelled but we should accept that it would best be a different kind of Christmas.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2020)

The sort of Christmas Day that looms is nothing new for many of us 'older' denizens of this forum.  My dad worked Christmas Day morning until late 1960s / early 1970s (I think Christmas Day became a UK public holiday in 1971).  We didn't have a car until the mid-1960s and so a family Christmas Day back then started when my dad got home from work early afternoon.  We didn't travel and nobody joined us on the day.  It wouldn't be the end of the world if for one year we 'stepped back in time'.


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## Mudball (Nov 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			I knew I'd find a use for that old silver hip flasķ I got as a present when I took up golf donkey's years ago.
		
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I am assuming it will work provided it is high proof...   but why would you want to spit it out 

Big question>>  Are you a spitter or a swallower??


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The sort of Christmas Day that looms is nothing new for many of us 'older' denizens of this forum.  My dad worked Christmas Day morning until late 1960s / early 1970s (I think Christmas Day became a UK public holiday in 1971).  We didn't have a car until the mid-1960s and so a family Christmas Day back then started when my dad got home from work early afternoon.  We didn't travel and nobody joined us on the day.  It wouldn't be the end of the world if for one year we 'stepped back in time'.
		
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Well I'm significantly older than you and Christmas Day was a Bank Holiday in England long before the early 70's as was Boxing Day.

The latter was not in Scotland as Scots had New Years Day. From 1973, I believe, there was some form of unification. 

However, I do agree that a Zoom Christmas is a price worth paying if weare to finally get on top of this virus.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 19, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well I'm significantly older than you and Christmas Day was a Bank Holiday in England long before the early 70's as was Boxing Day.

The latter was not in Scotland as Scots had New Years Day. From 1973, I believe, there was some form of unification.

However, I do agree that a Zoom Christmas is a price worth paying if weare to finally get on top of this virus.
		
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Missis Ts parents are not in our bubble. We have the grandkids a hell of a lot so it just couldn’t happen anyway. missis Ts sister was hoping we would have in-laws over for Xmas. It’s not happening. Loads of reasons as to why. But bottom line, this year has been challenging. Am I gonna risk catching Covid and spreading it for the sake of someone saying on Xmas day “ these Brussels are lovely”. Its not happening especially when when a vaccine is on the horizon.


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## GB72 (Nov 19, 2020)

Out of interest, how do people who have had it now feel about lockdowns etc. With the chances of you catching or spreading it pretty much zero, is it harder accepting being locked down, especially if you have friends and family who have had it as well. Appreciate you cannot split the rules else every person ignoring lockdown would simply say they had all had it as an excuse but wondered if it was harder to accept once you are in a position whereby the risk you pose is far less than those that have not been infected with it.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 19, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, how do people who have had it now feel about lockdowns etc. With the chances of you catching or spreading it pretty much zero, is it harder accepting being locked down, especially if you have friends and family who have had it as well. Appreciate you cannot split the rules else every person ignoring lockdown would simply say they had all had it as an excuse but wondered if it was harder to accept once you are in a position whereby the risk you pose is far less than those that have not been infected with it.
		
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Truthfully - not even thought about it and feel exactly the same. Mind you we're not 100% fit yet. The only difference is I'm less inclined to immediately wash my hands after a delivery from Amazon!

Otherwise it's lockdown for us same as for everyone else I guess.


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## Billysboots (Nov 19, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, how do people who have had it now feel about lockdowns etc. With the chances of you catching or spreading it pretty much zero, is it harder accepting being locked down, especially if you have friends and family who have had it as well. Appreciate you cannot split the rules else every person ignoring lockdown would simply say they had all had it as an excuse but wondered if it was harder to accept once you are in a position whereby the risk you pose is far less than those that have not been infected with it.
		
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I’ve had a mild case but even months later I still behave as though I haven’t. I’m slightly more relaxed about the risk to me, but have no idea whether I am still able to catch and transmit it to someone else, even if my own immune system can fight it off now without me even knowing it.

I’m not selfish enough to put others at risk when I know nothing about viruses, immune systems and so on.


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## DanFST (Nov 19, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, how do people who have had it now feel about lockdowns etc. With the chances of you catching or spreading it pretty much zero, is it harder accepting being locked down, especially if you have friends and family who have had it as well. Appreciate you cannot split the rules else every person ignoring lockdown would simply say they had all had it as an excuse but wondered if it was harder to accept once you are in a position whereby the risk you pose is far less than those that have not been infected with it.
		
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Had it in February and quarantined for just under a month, then got out for a few days until the original lockdown (which was 103 days). Didn't mind that as it was a proper lockdown everything was empty. This one is bullsh*t, and has frustrated me immensely. What's allowed to remain open is seemingly at random. And a huge chunk of the population are ignoring it.

I've spent over a third of 2020 completely alone. When I'm little - no risk of reinfecting anyone. Obeyed all the rules apart from one hug when I had too many Sherbets. I'm fed up of them. Next one I will be making sure i'm in another country before the clock strikes.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 19, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Had it in February and quarantined for just under a month, then got out for a few days until the original lockdown (which was 103 days). Didn't mind that as it was a proper lockdown everything was empty. *This one is bullsh*t, *and has frustrated me immensely. What's allowed to remain open is seemingly at random. And a huge chunk of the population are ignoring it.

I've spent over a third of 2020 completely alone. When I'm little - no risk of reinfecting anyone. Obeyed all the rules apart from one hug when I had too many Sherbets. I'm fed up of them. Next one I will be making sure i'm in another country before the clock strikes.
		
Click to expand...

Aint that the truth. Taken from sky news.

Supermarkets are the most frequent common exposure setting for those catching COVID-19 in England, new data suggests.

And there in lies the problem. The first lockdown, numbers were restricted in supermarkets, predominantly there was directions of aisles etc etc. Now it’s the same old same old. Supermarkets are normal. People go into supermarkets for a day out. The Friday big shop of the first lockdown where you got a weeks shopping, and I don’t mean panic buying. Well there’s more folk calling in for bits and bobs Now. Frustrating is an understatemen.


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## DanFST (Nov 19, 2020)

I Just drove past Go Outdoors. Ironically it's open as usual despite us not being able to "go outdoors".


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2020)

Ah..Go Outdoors, that essential retail outlet...some lockdown this is.

Halfway through lockdown 2 and the number of cases is still hovering around 20k per day..
Those numbers need to drop or lockdown 3 will be an extension of 2...


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## drdel (Nov 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Aint that the truth. Taken from sky news.

Supermarkets are the most frequent common exposure setting for those catching COVID-19 in England, new data suggests.

And there in lies the problem. The first lockdown, numbers were restricted in supermarkets, predominantly there was directions of aisles etc etc. Now it’s the same old same old. Supermarkets are normal. People go into supermarkets for a day out. The Friday big shop of the first lockdown where you got a weeks shopping, and I don’t mean panic buying. Well there’s more folk calling in for bits and bobs Now. Frustrating is an understatemen.
		
Click to expand...

It might just be that a ĺarge number if other retailers are shut.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 19, 2020)

Local Cash Converters is open here, I guess itclasses as essential so the local thieves can still go and sell their 'takings'


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## pendodave (Nov 19, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Ah..Go Outdoors, that essential retail outlet...some lockdown this is.

Halfway through lockdown 2 and the number of cases is still hovering around 20k per day..
Those numbers need to drop or lockdown 3 will be an extension of 2...
		
Click to expand...

hmmm...
I don't think things are as simple as that.
A cursory glance at the numbers show that cases plateaued around 25th October (so BEFORE lockdown) and has recently gently declined. Deaths have also plateaued and gently declined from 4th November. You might not get that impression from the news outlets (or on here) but it is the case.
The remaining cases?
Why would locking down help?? 
Consider that the most significant areas for cases are high density living - hospitals, student accomodation, care homes, low quality housing in deprived areas (see this Guardian article from yesterday - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-lockdown-says-blackburn-public-health-chief )
These are unlikely to improve by locking down the whole country (indeed, as the article states, unlikely to benefit even from locking down specifically). 
So why do it? It's not as if locking down is without extraordinary costs, socially, economically or educatationally.
Maybe King Canute had the right idea...


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## Tashyboy (Nov 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			It might just be that a ĺarge number if other retailers are shut.
		
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 very possibly, but beginning of Nov we did a few days collecting for RBL poppy appeal. Next door but one neighbour works in local supermarket. We have had a few matters re folk going into the supermarkets. One thing she did mention was the number of supermarket staff with Covid.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 19, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Local Cash Converters is open here, I guess itclasses as essential so the local thieves can still go and sell their 'takings'

Click to expand...

Hampstead last Sunday, amongst the dozens of coffee and patisserie shops with huge queues outside I  saw a bookshop open! Only letting one group in at a time, and they had to sanitise on the way in, but it shows what a nonsense (and non policed) thing this “Lockdown” is!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			hmmm...
I don't think things are as simple as that.
A cursory glance at the numbers show that cases plateaued around 25th October (so BEFORE lockdown) and has recently gently declined. Deaths have also plateaued and gently declined from 4th November. You might not get that impression from the news outlets (or on here) but it is the case.
The remaining cases?
Why would locking down help??
Consider that the most significant areas for cases are high density living - hospitals, student accomodation, care homes, low quality housing in deprived areas (see this Guardian article from yesterday - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-lockdown-says-blackburn-public-health-chief )
These are unlikely to improve by locking down the whole country (indeed, as the article states, unlikely to benefit even from locking down specifically).
So why do it? It's not as if locking down is without extraordinary costs, socially, economically or educatationally.
Maybe King Canute had the right idea...
		
Click to expand...

King Cnut did indeed have the right idea, he showed people that those in power didn't have the ability to demand the natural powers obey their command. He showed that if people wanted change they had to work together to achieve it.

It seems to me your suggestions that we don't need lockdowns and all is well is an outcome you prefer and you look to spurious opinions for support.

Many ethnic communities have a culture where multiple age groups live together, it's not poverty driven.
If people are lax with their contacting then these households will be hit the hardest. 

Follow the rules.


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## IainP (Nov 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			hmmm...
I don't think things are as simple as that.
A cursory glance at the numbers show that cases plateaued around 25th October (so BEFORE lockdown) and has recently gently declined. Deaths have also plateaued and gently declined from 4th November. You might not get that impression from the news outlets (or on here) but it is the case....
		
Click to expand...

Am curious to where those numbers (& hence conclusions are coming from).
Don't seem to tally with
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 19, 2020)

IainP said:



			Am curious to where those numbers (& hence conclusions are coming from).
Don't seem to tally with
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

Click to expand...

ONS figures for overall deaths have been normal since may in comparison to 2018,2019.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			ONS figures for overall deaths have been normal since may in comparison to 2018,2019.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, Are they.  I just cut this from the ONS site:
_
"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales increased from 10,887 in Week 44 (week ending 30 October 2020) to 11,812 in Week 45 (week ending 6 November 2020). The number of deaths was 14.3% above the five-year average (1,481 deaths higher).

In England, the number of deaths increased from 10,166 in Week 44 to 10,962 in Week 45, which was 1,287 deaths (13.3%) higher than the Week 45 five-year average.

In Wales, the number of deaths increased from 712 in Week 44 to 832 in Week 45, which was 207 deaths (33.1%) higher than the Week 45 five-year average"_


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## pendodave (Nov 19, 2020)

IainP said:



			Am curious to where those numbers (& hence conclusions are coming from).
Don't seem to tally with
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

Click to expand...

I'm not great at embedding pics, so apologies if it doesn't work....
Of course, one mans plateau is another's exponentual catastrophe,  so i think we can take as read that we are both interested, but essentially non expert glass half full/empty pontificators. I mean no disrespect - i absolutely include myself in this, but i think we owe it to ourselves to at least try to apply some intelligent consideration to the matter.


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## pendodave (Nov 19, 2020)

Lol. I totally buggered that up!!


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## IainP (Nov 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Lol. I totally buggered that up!!
		
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Ha, was a decent effort.
The deaths numbers on those were up to 14th, whereas the one I posted has recorded over 500 for 17th, 18th, & 19th - so that may explain different interpretations.
I wasn't judging,  just asking...


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## pendodave (Nov 19, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh, Are they.  I just cut this from the ONS site:

_"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales increased from 10,887 in Week 44 (week ending 30 October 2020) to 11,812 in Week 45 (week ending 6 November 2020). The number of deaths was 14.3% above the five-year average (1,481 deaths higher)._

_In England, the number of deaths increased from 10,166 in Week 44 to 10,962 in Week 45, which was 1,287 deaths (13.3%) higher than the Week 45 five-year average._

_In Wales, the number of deaths increased from 712 in Week 44 to 832 in Week 45, which was 207 deaths (33.1%) higher than the Week 45 five-year average"_

Click to expand...

Lol. Just went to post some snarky repost to SR's previous post but it seems to mysteriously vanished!!
Who'd have thunk it.
Lets just say that Mark Twain once made a particularly apposite "bon mot"....


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## pendodave (Nov 19, 2020)

IainP said:



			Ha, was a decent effort.
The deaths numbers those were up to 14th, whereas the one I posted has recorded over 500 for 17th, 18th, & 19th - so that may explain different interpretations.
I wasn't judging,  just asking...
		
Click to expand...

No offence taken. Facts, lamposts.... we've all grabbed em.


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## Ethan (Nov 19, 2020)

I think it is hard to commentate in near real time on these data because they are a bit wobbly, but in my opinion we are plateauing. Even if that is the case, that Dec 2 exit from lockdown looks rather dodgy, and I expect that a number of parts of the country will go into a tier which is barely distinguishable from the current situation. 

NI has just announced another 2 weeks of firmer lockdown. That is what is needed here but we won't get that, so the faffing around with ineffectual semi-lockdowns is set to continue for some time.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Lol. Just went to post some snarky repost to SR's previous post but it seems to mysteriously vanished!!
Who'd have thunk it.
Lets just say that Mark Twain once made a particularly apposite "bon mot"....
		
Click to expand...

Look harder, it's still there. Who'd have thunk it indeed.

Twain said may things, he did give some good advice about wrestling.

While I'm here your last graph has used a weekend to suggest numbers have dropped while that happens every weekend due to reporting difficulties.


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## 4LEX (Nov 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think it is hard to commentate in near real time on these data because they are a bit wobbly, but in my opinion we are plateauing. Even if that is the case, that Dec 2 exit from lockdown looks rather dodgy, and I expect that a number of parts of the country will go into a tier which is barely distinguishable from the current situation.

NI has just announced another 2 weeks of firmer lockdown. That is what is needed here but we won't get that, so the faffing around with ineffectual semi-lockdowns is set to continue for some time.
		
Click to expand...

Instead of a half baked 4-6 week semi lockdown, would a total 3 week lockdown have been more effective?


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## Ethan (Nov 19, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Instead of a half baked 4-6 week semi lockdown, would a total 3 week lockdown have been more effective?
		
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Don't know. You need to observe the data, which is why committing to a finish date at the outset is risky. And there is that up to 2 week lag between doing something stupid and actually getting Covid, and much of that stupid stuff happens the weekend or night before lockdown, so that timeline needs to play out before you really know where you might be going. Better to warn people that if they don't play ball, this will go on and on.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh, Are they.  I just cut this from the ONS site:
_
"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales increased from 10,887 in Week 44 (week ending 30 October 2020) to 11,812 in Week 45 (week ending 6 November 2020). The number of deaths was 14.3% above the five-year average (1,481 deaths higher).

In England, the number of deaths increased from 10,166 in Week 44 to 10,962 in Week 45, which was 1,287 deaths (13.3%) higher than the Week 45 five-year average.

In Wales, the number of deaths increased from 712 in Week 44 to 832 in Week 45, which was 207 deaths (33.1%) higher than the Week 45 five-year average"_

Click to expand...

10k odd deaths is normal per week, hits the higher end of 12k and up to 15k come the colder Months the odd week. 

Time to get worried if it hits the pandemic numbers of 20-25k deaths per week in the two weeks of April though unlikely as care homes should be doing a stellar hygienic job now. 

But if it hovers around 10-12k the next few months you should be pleased.


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## IainP (Nov 20, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			10k odd deaths is normal per week, hits the higher end of 12k and up to 15k come the colder Months the odd week.

Time to get worried if it hits the pandemic numbers of 20-25k deaths per week in the two weeks of April though unlikely as care homes should be doing a stellar hygienic job now.

But if it hovers around 10-12k the next few months you should be pleased.
		
Click to expand...

Agree that the "excess deaths" is a sensible way to view things.

I'd suggest that trajectory is also important, not just the absolute numbers.

As always time is needed for trends to appear, but below is a view of the excess above the 5 year average



As you mention let's hope it doesn't go anywhere near the April & May 2020 numbers


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			10k odd deaths is normal per week, hits the higher end of 12k and up to 15k come the colder Months the odd week.

Time to get worried if it hits the pandemic numbers of 20-25k deaths per week in the two weeks of April though unlikely as care homes should be doing a stellar hygienic job now.

But if it hovers around 10-12k the next few months you should be pleased.
		
Click to expand...

I think tracking excess deaths on a week by week basis may be misleading. It is more helpful to look at a broader period of time and assess the real overall impact. There are displacement effects that have occurred that are not fully understood yet. Older people who died earlier can't die again when the were really due to do so originally. 

The main question is whether there really are more Covid cases and deaths than there were a few weeks ago, and the answer is that there are.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Don't know. You need to observe the data, which is why committing to a finish date at the outset is risky. And there is that up to 2 week lag between doing something stupid and actually getting Covid, and much of that stupid stuff happens the weekend or night before lockdown, so that timeline needs to play out before you really know where you might be going. Better to warn people that if they don't play ball, this will go on and on.
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was odd putting a date on the lockdown esp when we would not know the numbers Re new cases and deaths. What I thought was even odder was not starting the lockdown half term weeks when the kids were off school, esp when we know one of of the highest transmission areas are schools.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2020)

I like the clarity and precision of the political analysis that Rachel Maddow presents - but she has been away for a bit and here‘s why...and it’s not political...her message resonated strongly with me.  You need to listen past the 'hold on something's up' moment to get to her message about the virus and our individual behaviour.


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I thought it was odd putting a date on the lockdown esp when we would not know the numbers Re new cases and deaths. What I thought was even odder was not starting the lockdown half term weeks when the kids were off school, esp when we know one of of the highest transmission areas are schools.
		
Click to expand...

They procrastinated too much, and in doing so left themselves without a window to get it done properly before Christmas. The root of this problem is the idea that it is either health outcomes OR the economy. In reality the two are inextricably bound and the economy will never rebound until the health issue is sorted. In my opinion, all those who opposed lockdown to help the economy actually achieved the opposite. They prolonged and deepened the damage to the economy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Aint that the truth. Taken from sky news.

Supermarkets are the most frequent common exposure setting for those catching COVID-19 in England, new data suggests.

And there in lies the problem. The first lockdown, numbers were restricted in supermarkets, predominantly there was directions of aisles etc etc. Now it’s the same old same old. Supermarkets are normal. People go into supermarkets for a day out. The Friday big shop of the first lockdown where you got a weeks shopping, and I don’t mean panic buying. Well there’s more folk calling in for bits and bobs Now. Frustrating is an understatemen.
		
Click to expand...

One of the local town centre supermarkets that we use has now reintroduced limiting of numbers and so the 'winter queueing' we dreaded is with us.  But it makes for a much more controlled and 'safe' feeling shopping environment - though they are yet to reintroduce the 'one only from a couple/family' rule that was in place first time.  We go in and get out as quickly as we can - just buying the items we have on our list - no browsing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Well I'm significantly older than you and Christmas Day was a Bank Holiday in England long before the early 70's as was Boxing Day.

The latter was not in Scotland as Scots had New Years Day. From 1973, I believe, there was some form of unification.

However, I do agree that a Zoom Christmas is a price worth paying if we are to finally get on top of this virus.
		
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My point being simply that Christmas Day has not always been the great get together hoopla of more recent years (decades perhaps).  For very many it was a relatively quite simple but joyous intimate (closed) family celebration.  And we can make it that this year.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One of the local town centre supermarkets that we use has now reintroduced limiting of numbers and so the 'winter queueing' we dreaded is with us.  But it makes for a much more controlled and 'safe' feeling shopping environment - though they are yet to reintroduce the 'one only from a couple/family' rule that was in place first time.  We go in and get out as quickly as we can - just buying the items we have on our list - no browsing.
		
Click to expand...

One of the supermarkets (possibly Asda) is/was trialling a system where you message them when you arrive in the car park and then wait in your car. They will then message you back to say that you can enter the store. No queuing outside in the cold.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			10k odd deaths is normal per week, hits the higher end of 12k and up to 15k come the colder Months the odd week.

Time to get worried if it hits the pandemic numbers of 20-25k deaths per week in the two weeks of April though unlikely as care homes should be doing a stellar hygienic job now.

But if it hovers around 10-12k the next few months you should be pleased.
		
Click to expand...

Deaths above the five year average has a clear and unambiguous meaning.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 20, 2020)

David managed to walk the dogs with me this morning. Only a short walk but he felt ok and temperature has remained normal for a few days now. Phew...


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## DRW (Nov 20, 2020)

IainP said:



			Am curious to where those numbers (& hence conclusions are coming from).
Don't seem to tally with
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

Click to expand...

I would look at the ONS or Zoe survey which is more both on day of specimen and pick up other cases(rather than report date and tests done on symptoms that Worldmeters do), both ONS/ZOE indicating a top of around the end of October/beginning of Nov(lets hope the trend keeps going down) :-


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## IainP (Nov 20, 2020)

DRW said:



			I would look at the ONS or Zoe survey which is more both on day of specimen and pick up other cases(rather than report date and tests done on symptoms that Worldmeters do), both ONS/ZOE indicating a top of around the end of October/beginning of Nov(lets hope the trend keeps going down) :-

View attachment 33627
View attachment 33628

Click to expand...

Thanks but it was this I was curious about:
"Deaths have also plateaued and gently declined from 4th November"

And see post 11,228.

Agree with - lets hope the cases trend goes down, and the other follows.


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## DRW (Nov 20, 2020)

IainP said:



			Thanks but it was this I was curious about:
"Deaths have also plateaued and gently declined from 4th November"

And see post 11,228.

Agree with - lets hope the cases trend goes down, and the other follows.
		
Click to expand...

Oh sorry thought you may have been referring to cases, as the first bit of the post 11219 that you quoted refers to cases and wasn't sure if you follow the ONS and Zoe stuff, so thought I would mention it just in case you weren't aware of them. No worries.

Deaths will peak some time afterward(certainly not on 4/11) and we probably wont know that for a month at a guess, it is a really lagging figure.  As I think it would be 14-20ish days after cases high in older people, so at a guess it probably has not quite peaked in what is currently being reported per day(and then clearly backdated to the death date, so it will be a while afterwards as some are reported over a week later in the figures, from when I briefly look at the figures going back to the 1st wave). 

Admissions look like they are plateauing now and the total number of people in hospital will start dropping soon.

I don't follow deaths figures/charts, its a bit depressing


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## IainP (Nov 20, 2020)

Aye, it is depressing. These are tough times.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 20, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			David managed to walk the dogs with me this morning. Only a short walk but he felt ok and temperature has remained normal for a few days now. Phew...
		
Click to expand...

That is good news. I bet it wore him out though. Hopefully the fresh air will help


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## Crazyface (Nov 22, 2020)

What's this "lock down" everyone's on about. I've not noticed it. Roads busy as ever. I'm at work. Wifes at work, in fact all staff who have been called back at wifes work after first "lock down" have not been sent home. B+M was utterly rammed yesterday in Leek. Not a space available on their car park and massive queues to get in....at B+M !!!!!!!! Just what do they have in their that makes it so necessary to stand in the rain to queue up to get in?????? 

Lock Down my bum!


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Just what do they have in their that makes it so necessary to stand in the rain to queue up to get in??????
		
Click to expand...

I’m not a B & M customer, but my guess is it’s not what’s in there which draws the customers at the moment, but the fact they are providing an excuse for people to leave their homes.

People are sick and tired of not being able to go anywhere or do anything, so are grabbing any opportunities presented to them to legitimise a trip to the shops. I drove by a Range store yesterday - not only was I surprised to see it even open, but the queue must have been a well struck 4-iron long. The same went for the queues for the drive through KFC and McDonalds on the same complex - both far, far busier than they normally are.

People have had enough. Simple as that. We all have to hope and pray that science saves the day, because we certainly can’t rely on people continuing to follow the rules to get us out of this mess.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



*People have had enough*. Simple as that. We all have to hope and pray that science saves the day, because we certainly can’t rely on people continuing to follow the rules to get us out of this mess.
		
Click to expand...

Either that or the message is so jumbled no-one wants to "do as your told"


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Either that or the message is so jumbled no-one wants to "do as your told"
		
Click to expand...

Oh, come on!

I’m sure I’m not alone here when I say the vast majority of people I know and socialise with are intelligent people. And, of those, the ones who “don’t understand” the rules simply *choose *not to understand them because it suits their cause. They can then either moan about how confusing things are, or simply carry on doing just what they want.

With some limited exceptions the rules have been pretty clear. That is, to people who actually made the effort to understand  them.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			What's this "lock down" everyone's on about. I've not noticed it. Roads busy as ever. I'm at work. Wifes at work, in fact all staff who have been called back at wifes work after first "lock down" have not been sent home. B+M was utterly rammed yesterday in Leek. Not a space available on their car park and massive queues to get in....at B+M !!!!!!!! Just what do they have in their that makes it so necessary to stand in the rain to queue up to get in??????

Lock Down my bum!
		
Click to expand...

but this is the bit that makes me chuckle, I said this a couple of days after the second lockdown started about all the essential orders on the rd. I was assured on here that they were.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			What's this "lock down" everyone's on about. I've not noticed it. Roads busy as ever. I'm at work. Wifes at work, in fact all staff who have been called back at wifes work after first "lock down" have not been sent home. B+M was utterly rammed yesterday in Leek. Not a space available on their car park and massive queues to get in....at B+M !!!!!!!! Just what do they have in their that makes it so necessary to stand in the rain to queue up to get in??????

Lock Down my bum!
		
Click to expand...

Because it’s not a full lockdown 

A lot of work premises are still open 
building sites still open
Schools and nurseries still open 

Surely you were able to understand that 🙄


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## Papas1982 (Nov 22, 2020)

Youngest daughters class just been informed of 2 week school from home due to a case in their class. 

How were gonna do Internet lessons and me work with Internet speeds of 5mb is beyond me!


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Youngest daughters class just been informed of 2 week school from home due to a case in their class.

How were gonna do Internet lessons and me work with Internet speeds of 5mb is beyond me!
		
Click to expand...

Peddle faster.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Oh, come on!

I’m sure I’m not alone here when I say the vast majority of people I know and socialise with are intelligent people. And, of those, the ones who “don’t understand” the rules simply *choose *not to understand them because it suits their cause. They can then either moan about how confusing things are, or simply carry on doing just what they want.

With some limited exceptions the rules have been pretty clear. That is, to people who actually made the effort to understand  them.
		
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Woman breaks law and blames police for her injuries, my thoughts are with the dog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55034697


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## Imurg (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Woman breaks law and blames police for her injuries, my thoughts are with the dog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55034697

Click to expand...

Not as life changing as dying though...


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Woman breaks law and blames police for her injuries, my thoughts are with the dog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55034697

Click to expand...

I hope the dog is up to date with its vaccinations, poor creature.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Woman breaks law and blames police for her injuries, my thoughts are with the dog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55034697

Click to expand...

Be nice to see the IOPC grow a pair and tell her to go away as she is the architect of her own downfall by attending an illegal event. 

Yes, I know it won't happen but we can always live in hope.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Be nice to see the IOPC grow a pair and tell her to go away as she is the architect of her own downfall by attending an illegal event. 

Yes, I know it won't happen but we can always live in hope.
		
Click to expand...

I hope they have issued the “life changing” fine as well.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Woman breaks law and blames police for her injuries, my thoughts are with the dog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55034697

Click to expand...

daughter said her local force call them “land sharks”, when the call comes out the dogs are being released it is advisable to stay in the car. Afterwards the dogs are sat playing with tennis balls as a treat, And having cuddles and tickles. She reckons the transformation from shark to cuddly ball of hair is remarkable. 
Unfortunately she Will go down the claim route.
 My nieces son is trouble, he was restrained by a police dog. It made a mess of his skinny arm and he needed a fair amount of surgery. My mother was unimpressed And had a fair amount to say. She changed her tune when Missis T found on the net where he had been in court for drug Possession and not just for personal use. Now the sands of time have passed he is convinced he is a victim.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2020)

Just announced here in Andalucia. Lockdown to continue till the 10th. Most regions have already done something similar. Slight tweak. Restaurants still have to close at 6pm but are permitted to carry on cooking take-aways till 9:30pm. And toy shops can stay open till 8pm - after all, Christmas is coming.


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## Foxholer (Nov 22, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			daughter said her local force call them “*land sharks*”...
		
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That's a whole different description to my 'Jimmy Buffett-ised' description - from the song 'Fins', possibly his song with most 'audience participation'!
Here's the version from his concert to help the area devestated by BP's Gulf Shore disastrous oil spill!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Woman breaks law and blames police for her injuries, my thoughts are with the dog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55034697

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Sounds a bit like a burglar sueing for damages due to cutting his hand breaking the window to get in.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Woman breaks law and blames police for her injuries, my thoughts are with the dog

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-55034697

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Oh dear. Never mind.

My sympathy meter maxed out when it comes to imbeciles like this some considerable time ago.

Mid April, in fact.


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## Slime (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Don't understand why the police would set dogs on people. Truly barbaric.
		
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Not as dangerous as 700 people potentially sharing *a killer virus* before going out and spreading it amongst the innocent public!
Some of these 700 were also pelting police with missiles including glass bottles.
I have no issue with police dogs being used.


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## banjofred (Nov 22, 2020)

Violent individuals met with violent response....I'm fine with that (as long as it is in THAT order). If I start throwing Molotav cocktails at people I wouldn't think that the response would be "oh....let's just talk to that person tomorrow when they are less angry".


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Don't understand why the police would set dogs on people. Truly barbaric.
		
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You’re more than welcome to come and stand alongside some of my colleagues in a city centre pub fight, when they’re getting the 💩 kicked out of them, the nearest back-up is miles away, and the “opposition” is drunk, drugged up, tooled up and doesn’t give a toss about the lenient sentence that they’re likely to receive in the event they’re ever convicted at Court.

What would you have the police do? Take a battering, which in itself is barbaric, or deploy a non-lethal tactic like a police dog?

Tell you what. You sit in your ivory tower and be all self-righteous, whilst my friends and colleagues get put in hospital, or worse, on your behalf.

Priceless.


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## DanFST (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Don't understand why the police would set dogs on people. Truly barbaric.
		
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"We have many hours of body-worn video footage of the violence, threats and intimidation used towards police officers. There were missiles thrown, bottles, punches, kicks, fireworks fired at officers. All sorts of really significant violence"

Truly barbaric, attacking people doing their job. When you know you are breaking the law.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			You’re more than welcome to come and stand alongside some of my colleagues in a city centre pub fight, when they’re getting the 💩 kicked out of them, the nearest back-up is miles away, and the “opposition” is drunk, drugged up, tooled up and doesn’t give a toss about the lenient sentence that they’re likely to receive in the event they’re ever convicted at Court.

What would you have the police do? Take a battering, which in itself is barbaric, or deploy a non-lethal tactic like a police dog?

Tell you what. You sit in your ivory tower and be all self-righteous, whilst my friends and colleagues get put in hospital, or worse, on your behalf.

Priceless.
		
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I think we need to rethink the law a bit.
Anyone committing a criminal act should have their rights suspended until they stop that criminal act.
Far to many people think they can just do what they want.


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## DanFST (Nov 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think we need to rethink the law a bit.
Anyone committing a criminal act should have their rights suspended until they stop that criminal act.
Far to many people think they can just do what they want.
		
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Worked with moped crime. My favourite is the guy that gets knocked off then raises his arm like the police were in the wrong.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			No idea the answer but it seems fairly indiscriminate to release animals into a crowd knowing they'll maim people.
		
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They don’t release them indiscriminately into crowds. If you don’t actually understand police tactics, best not to try and pass judgement.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			They don’t release them indiscriminately into crowds. If you don’t actually understand police tactics, best not to try and pass judgement.
		
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If the police actions were not in keeping with specified guidelines or unlawful then an investigation is correct.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			If the police actions were not in keeping with specified guidelines or unlawful then an investigation is correct.
		
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I could not agree more.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Oh, come on!

I’m sure I’m not alone here when I say the vast majority of people I know and socialise with are intelligent people. And, of those, the ones who “don’t understand” the rules simply *choose *not to understand them because it suits their cause. They can then either moan about how confusing things are, or simply carry on doing just what they want.

With some limited exceptions the rules have been pretty clear. That is, to people who actually made the effort to understand  them.
		
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It's obvious my rhetorical tone was missed.....
We've had ministers and political advisers doing as they please, and now a lockdown that isn't a lock down for a virus that's obviously going to be kind to us and give us a 5 day amnesty over christmas.
What else do we expect


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Don't understand why the police would set dogs on people. Truly barbaric.
		
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Billysboots said:



			They don’t release them indiscriminately into crowds. If you don’t actually understand police tactics, best not to try and pass judgement.
		
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Never seen a police dog set indiscriminately into a crowd.  Only time I've ever seen dogs released from the lead was to chase a fleeing suspect.  

Given the bond between a handler and their dog, the last thing they would do is set one into a crowd.  

And the animals are trained to act as necessary; if you are chased & stand still, the dog is trained to just circle you and bark.

I'd be extremely keen to know how a dog broke a bone in her foot through those boots; in fact why would you wear boots like that to a party...


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Some people on here are lucky the don’t live on main land Europe where you will get the crap kicked out of you, tear gassed, smacked with a baton and have rubber bullets fired at you. Our police force are pussy cats compared to French/Spanish/German and Italian police not forgetting the good old water cannon.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Which people?
		
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Those that think the police in the UK use unnecessary force, not you obviously as your on your normal wind up to liven up the forum.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Some people on here are lucky the don’t live on main land Europe where you will get the crap kicked out of you, tear gassed, smacked with a baton and have rubber bullets fired at you. Our police force are pussy cats compared to French/Spanish/German and Italian police not forgetting the good old water cannon.
		
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Here in Spain, all you have to do is behave appropriately. Even if you are issued with a fine you just accept the pink slip. You're fully entitled to contest the fine, just not on the street with the issuing officer.

Riots still occur, and there has been lockdown riots, but someone deciding to protest knows exactly what might happen. Once the order to disperse is issued, the next step is the baton. People have a choice.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Hardly. It's possible that people have different views than yourself, you know.
		
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Appreciate that, I presume you accept that if your breaking the law and involved in actions that may injure those carrying out their duty you may get injured yourself.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Appreciate that, I presume you accept that if your breaking the law and involved in actions that may injure those carrying out their duty you may get injured yourself.
		
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It Doesn't give the authorities an excuse the do as they please.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			It Doesn't give the authorities an excuse the do as they please.
		
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Do you have any evidence that the authorities did as they please?


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			It Doesn't give the authorities an excuse the do as they please.
		
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Do as they please? Really?

Have you the first clue the scrutiny the police are under these days? Mobile phone cameras recording your every move, trial by social media (with, I might add, zero right of reply), the never ending bashing from virtually every media outlet, which Joe Public seems to lap up as accurate when most of it is claptrap, not to mention the IOPC chomping at the bit to flex their (anything but independent) muscle.

If you honesty think the police can just do as they please I really must ask which planet you are on, because it quite clearly isn’t Earth?

🙄


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I am supportive but just struggle with the notion of *setting dogs on people*.
		
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And I struggle with the use of terminology like that. Not least because it’s not how it works.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Of course. Where I dissent from the forum consensus is the notion that you lose all human rights the instant the authorities deem you have committed an offence of any sort or that injury to an alleged offender is something to celebrate.
		
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I’m not celebrating this incident. But I most certainly won’t lose any sleep over it, either.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do you have any evidence that the authorities did as they please?
		
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Yes I can easily find multiple instances of the police abusing thier powers.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think we need to rethink the law a bit.
Anyone committing a criminal act should have their rights suspended until they stop that criminal act.
Far to many people think they can just do what they want.
		
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I agree with this. We should bring back the term "outlaw". Once you step outside of the law you are no longer given the protection of those laws. 

If you fall through the roof of a warehouse while trying to break into it, never mind, that's your own fault, and no you can't sue for damages.

If you get shot/stabbed/battered with a golf club while breaking in to someone's house, never mind, that's your own fault, and no you can't sue for damages.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Fair enough, how would you phrase it?
		
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How would I phrase what? You’re suggesting that police dogs are set free to charge into crowds and cause carnage. You’re asking me to provide a phrase for something which doesn’t happen.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Yes I can easily find multiple instances of the police abusing thier powers.
		
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I think the question relates to this incident.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think the question relates to this incident.
		
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I'll wait and see what the investigation finds out.


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## SteveJay (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			How would I phrase what? You’re suggesting that police dogs are set free to charge into crowds and cause carnage. You’re asking me to provide a phrase for something which doesn’t happen.
		
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 Allegedly!


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Allegedly!
		
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I’ve been in this job nearly thirty years. Been to literally hundreds of incidents where police dogs have been deployed. And the only time they are let off the lead is to assist in the pursuit of a fleeing suspect and only then after very unambiguous warnings.

Never have I seen one set free into a crowd. Not once.


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## SteveJay (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve been in this job nearly thirty years. Been to literally hundreds of incidents where police dogs have been deployed. And the only time they are let off the lead is to assist in the pursuit of a fleeing suspect and only then after very unambiguous warnings.

Never have I seen one set free into a crowd. Not once.
		
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Oh OK, i stand corrected then, as you have never seen it happen it must never happen.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Of course. Where I dissent from the forum consensus is the notion that you lose all human rights the instant the authorities deem you have committed an offence of any sort or that injury to an alleged offender is something to celebrate.
		
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The authorities didn’t deem anything, she broke the law, in fact several.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			BiM described what happens. At some point the police officer "tells" the dog to attack an individual. I described that as "setting the dogs on", a phrase you objected to. That seemed valid to me but since you objected to it I'm interested in how you would describe it. I'm not trying to catch you out, just genuinely interested. I'll let it drop if you don't want to answer.
		
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Police dog handlers do not tell their dogs to attack anyone. So there is no phrase to attach to it. Can I be any clearer?


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## SteveJay (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Police dog handlers do not tell their dogs to attack anyone. So there is no phrase to attach to it. Can I be any clearer?
		
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So was it a bobby that bit that woman in Bristol ?  or was the dog just being friendly ....sorry, whether the dog was "set on her" or whatever phrase you do deem appropriate, the dog attacked her, disproving your statement that police dog handlers do not tell their dogs to attack anyone.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 22, 2020)

Having read the BBC report and all the posts here two things immediately spring to mind.

Firstly I can find no reference in  the report to the dog being let loose. Do we know that was the case or was the dog still on its leash and the miscreant may have got too close or even attempted to kick the dog?

After all the foot would not be a natural target for the animal.

Secondly the use of the word attack has been attributed to one poster by another yet I cannot find that reference. 

There does seem to be a lot of assumptions being made and judgements then based on those assumptions.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I think you need a "priceless" back at you for that obfuscation.
		
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You seem intent on dragging this discussion out until I accept your suggestion that police dog handlers deliberately set out to injure people, deploying their dogs as a weapon.

Sorry, but you’re going to be disappointed.


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## SteveJay (Nov 22, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Secondly the use of the word attack has been attributed to one poster by another yet I cannot find that reference.
		
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Jeez, what term would you use to describe the act of a dog biting someone causing such injuries, if not "attack"?


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## jim8flog (Nov 22, 2020)

B....y lockdown
Golf is my major source of exercise for my back
No golf no decent exercise

My back went on me today.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			BiM described what happens. At some point the police officer "tells" the dog to attack an individual. I described that as "setting the dogs on", a phrase you objected to. That seemed valid to me but since you objected to it I'm interested in how you would describe it. I'm not trying to catch you out, just genuinely interested. I'll let it drop if you don't want to answer.
		
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Sorry, where exactly did I say that an officer tells a dog to attack an individual?  I referred to a dog being trained to act as necessary when released to chase a suspect, pointing out that if said suspect stopped then the dog is trained to circle and bark.  I did not say that the officer would instruct a dog to attack an individual.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			So was it a bobby that bit that woman in Bristol ?  or was the dog just being friendly ....sorry, whether the dog was "set on her" or whatever phrase you do deem appropriate, the dog attacked her, disproving your statement that police dog handlers do not tell their dogs to attack anyone.
		
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As you’ve clearly no concept regarding how dogs behave, particularly police dogs, then I’m not going to engage with you any further.

You and I both only know what we’ve read in the press. But do you seriously think police dog handlers issue a verbal command to place their dogs into some sort of “attack mode”? Really?

I’ve seen first hand more than one person bitten by a police dog, including police officers. They don’t distinguish between police officers and anyone else (one of the reasons they’re not set loose into crowds), and not once have I heard the command “kill”, “dinner time Fido”, or anything else used to flick the canine switch to ensure they sink their teeth into the first thing that moves.

If you, or anyone else, think that’s how it works then this discussion has run its course.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think the question relates to this incident.
		
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I'm sure he knows that.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 22, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Jeez, what term would you use to describe the act of a dog biting someone causing such injuries, if not "attack"?
		
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How about "defend" if the woman in question was trying to kick the dog.

I don't know what happened as, unlike some on here, I wasn't there and neither have I seen the video evidence. 

Of course I am making assumptions there but it is the degree of certainty in some people's criticism of the police's actions that leads me to those assumptions.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Jeez, what term would you use to describe the act of a dog biting someone causing such injuries, if not "attack"?
		
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Maybe it was defending itself and/or it’s handler. The same as you would perhaps lash out if you felt threatened or were under attack yourself.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Yes I can easily find multiple instances of the police abusing thier powers.
		
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That's not proving the Police do as they please. Protecting themselves is not abuse of their powers, they didn't open fire on the bunch of scrotes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2020)

So this coronavirus stuff then - cases and deaths dropping in regards the 14 day average , R number dropping - maybe this mini lockdown was worth it 

With the vaccines starting to appear maybe we will beat this sooner than expected


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## SteveJay (Nov 22, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			As you’ve clearly no concept regarding how dogs behave, particularly police dogs, then I’m not going to engage with you any further.

.............................

If you, or anyone else, think that’s how it works then this discussion has run its course.
		
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Suits me fine as (a) I do know about dogs and (b) I don't want to hear more of your holier than thou posting suggesting the police can do no wrong.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So this coronavirus stuff then - cases and deaths dropping in regards the 14 day average , R number dropping - maybe this mini lockdown was worth it

With the vaccines starting to appear maybe we will beat this sooner than expected
		
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I thought I’d joined a thread about police brutality. Thanks for getting us back on track.

Roll on 2021 and scientific salvation.


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## Billysboots (Nov 22, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Suits me fine as (a) I do know about dogs and (b) I don't want to hear more of your holier than thou posting suggesting the police can do no wrong.
		
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Where have I said the police can do no wrong? Nowhere. I’ve been around police officers for a lifetime, and worked amongst them for thirty years. The vast majority are great. Some get it wrong, sometimes badly. Of those who get it wrong some make mistakes and some are dishonest, corrupt, and hide behind their uniforms as a way of bullying people. Nobody knows more than a police officer how wrong the police sometimes get it.

But I will always defend the organisation I work for when it comes in for narrow minded criticism from people who, in the main, do not have the foggiest idea what goes on in the world of policing. You call that being holier than thou? That’s your opinion. But I’m not going to roll over and have my tummy tickled (forgive the canine analogy), just to satisfy the likes of you.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I used that word as a more concise way to sum up what you described. Sorry if it was misplaced. I think we're splitting hairs to be honest but what does the dog do if the suspect it's chasing doesn't stop?
		
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Its a good point you make. Does a dog "attack," or does it restrain? I don't know. Does the level of force the dog exerts correspond to how much a 'suspect' fights it off? Does the level of training a dog receives 'see' the only tactic a dog uses is to grab the arm?

Even humans cross the line, and I'm sure a dog can too. And if a suspect jerks their arm away does the grab(bite) become a tear?

But to take it back to the beginning. A suspect was involved in a criminal act. The suspect was part of a group that attacked the police. Were drink and drugs involved? In an emotionally charged incident bad things happen. They shouldn't but they do. As far as I'm concerned there's almost a knock for knock side to this. Bad things happen. Don't break the law and those things don't happen. Yes, investigate to see if the dog/handler 'lost it,' but other than that its part and parcel of bad things can happen.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So this coronavirus stuff then - cases and deaths dropping in regards the 14 day average , R number dropping - maybe this mini lockdown was worth it

With the vaccines starting to appear maybe we will beat this sooner than expected
		
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Certainly hope so. Now if we could just educate the moronic anti vaccine lot there might be hope for us.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 22, 2020)

“Up to four households could possibly mix for a number of days over Christmas”

So we’ve gone from “don’t kill a granny” to “kill your own granny”. 

Excellent. Top shelf comedy.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			“Up to four households could possibly mix for a number of days over Christmas”

So we’ve gone from “don’t kill a granny” to “kill your own granny”.

Excellent. Top shelf comedy.
		
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It’s a choice (if true) and not an instruction. There may be some who don’t like their granny


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I used that word as a more concise way to sum up what you described. Sorry if it was misplaced. I think we're splitting hairs to be honest but what does the dog do if the suspect it's chasing doesn't stop?
		
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Hobbit has it right in restrain.  The dog is trained to grab the arm so that the suspect cannot continue to run.  If the suspect stops and stands still, the dog is trained to circle & bark to contain the suspect until the officer gets to the scene & takes over.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 22, 2020)

I think tody is the first time I've admitte to myself that I'm starting to struggle. The first lockdown wasn't too bad, the weather was great, I was furloghed the kids were off etc, it was liveable with, but I don't like winter months at the best of times and this year I'm really starting to feel it.  I'm sick of the whoe thing now, sick of living like this, not being able to play the game I love (and hate) despite it being probably the most covid secure thing you do. Sick of having remembering to grab a bloody mask before I go out anywhere, sick of being told I can't go out anyway, sick of being talked to like a piece of dog crap for daring to ask someone to put a mask on on public transport, for them to wave an 'exemption card', which they've downloaded off the web, in my face because wearing a bit of cloth over their face for a few minutes makes them a bit anxious and they can't breathe. No, you can't breath because you're the weight of a horse and you smoke 40 B+H a day you fat selfish slob. But I can't say that as I will lose my job so I just have to smile politely and get on with it, whilst getting more grief from mask wearing passengers for not enforcing the mask rule. I'm sick of my childrens education being harmed as they constantly have to take time off due to another child/teacher testing positive. The job I loved disappeared, literally overnight, and there's no sign of it coming back any time soon. I just want this over now and some kind of normality to return, but when/what will that be? The government that I once had faith in now don't seem to have a bloody clue and we're just going round in cirles.
And all the while people are dying in their hundreds, and I feel incredibly selfish for writing what I have becasue of that.
Sorry for the rant, hoping getting it off my chest a bit helps


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I think tody is the first time I've admitte to myself that I'm starting to struggle. The first lockdown wasn't too bad, the weather was great, I was furloghed the kids were off etc, it was liveable with, but I don't like winter months at the best of times and this year I'm really starting to feel it.  I'm sick of the whoe thing now, sick of living like this, not being able to play the game I love (and hate) despite it being probably the most covid secure thing you do. Sick of having remembering to grab a bloody mask before I go out anywhere, sick of being told I can't go out anyway, sick of being talked to like a piece of dog crap for daring to ask someone to put a mask on on public transport, for them to wave an 'exemption card', which they've downloaded off the web, in my face because wearing a bit of cloth over their face for a few minutes makes them a bit anxious and they can't breathe. No, you can't breath because you're the weight of a horse and you smoke 40 B+H a day you fat selfish slob. But I can't say that as I will lose my job so I just have to smile politely and get on with it, whilst getting more grief from mask wearing passengers for not enforcing the mask rule. I'm sick of my childrens education being harmed as they constantly have to take time off due to another child/teacher testing positive. The job I loved disappeared, literally overnight, and there's no sign of it coming back any time soon. I just want this over now and some kind of normality to return, but when/what will that be? The government that I once had faith in now don't seem to have a bloody clue and we're just going round in cirles.
And all the while people are dying in their hundreds, and I feel incredibly selfish for writing what I have becasue of that.
Sorry for the rant, hoping getting it off my chest a bit helps
		
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Better out than in.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 22, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Suits me fine as (a) I do know about dogs and (b) I don't want to hear more of your holier than thou posting suggesting the police can do no wrong.
		
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so you do't know about dogs but have to bash someone making expert, balanced and insightful comments! Well done - you win snowflake of the month award


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## SocketRocket (Nov 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I think tody is the first time I've admitte to myself that I'm starting to struggle. The first lockdown wasn't too bad, the weather was great, I was furloghed the kids were off etc, it was liveable with, but I don't like winter months at the best of times and this year I'm really starting to feel it.  I'm sick of the whoe thing now, sick of living like this, not being able to play the game I love (and hate) despite it being probably the most covid secure thing you do. Sick of having remembering to grab a bloody mask before I go out anywhere, sick of being told I can't go out anyway, sick of being talked to like a piece of dog crap for daring to ask someone to put a mask on on public transport, for them to wave an 'exemption card', which they've downloaded off the web, in my face because wearing a bit of cloth over their face for a few minutes makes them a bit anxious and they can't breathe. No, you can't breath because you're the weight of a horse and you smoke 40 B+H a day you fat selfish slob. But I can't say that as I will lose my job so I just have to smile politely and get on with it, whilst getting more grief from mask wearing passengers for not enforcing the mask rule. I'm sick of my childrens education being harmed as they constantly have to take time off due to another child/teacher testing positive. The job I loved disappeared, literally overnight, and there's no sign of it coming back any time soon. I just want this over now and some kind of normality to return, but when/what will that be? The government that I once had faith in now don't seem to have a bloody clue and we're just going round in cirles.
And all the while people are dying in their hundreds, and I feel incredibly selfish for writing what I have becasue of that.
Sorry for the rant, hoping getting it off my chest a bit helps
		
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No gain without pain. This lockdown could be a darn site more restrictive at least we can get out for a walk or bike ride.

Getting it under control is very much in our own hands, we have to follow some easy to understand rules to reduce transmission but alas so many of us want to do as they want and return to normality.

We hope the vaccinations will open the way back to normality but alas I hear so many people saying they won't have it or they will wait to see if it creates bad side effects before they have it.  I am ready and waiting for mine so I can get a degree of my former life back.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I think tody is the first time I've admitte to myself that I'm starting to struggle. The first lockdown wasn't too bad, the weather was great, I was furloghed the kids were off etc, it was liveable with, but I don't like winter months at the best of times and this year I'm really starting to feel it.  I'm sick of the whoe thing now, sick of living like this, not being able to play the game I love (and hate) despite it being probably the most covid secure thing you do. Sick of having remembering to grab a bloody mask before I go out anywhere, sick of being told I can't go out anyway, sick of being talked to like a piece of dog crap for daring to ask someone to put a mask on on public transport, for them to wave an 'exemption card', which they've downloaded off the web, in my face because wearing a bit of cloth over their face for a few minutes makes them a bit anxious and they can't breathe. No, you can't breath because you're the weight of a horse and you smoke 40 B+H a day you fat selfish slob. But I can't say that as I will lose my job so I just have to smile politely and get on with it, whilst getting more grief from mask wearing passengers for not enforcing the mask rule. I'm sick of my childrens education being harmed as they constantly have to take time off due to another child/teacher testing positive. The job I loved disappeared, literally overnight, and there's no sign of it coming back any time soon. I just want this over now and some kind of normality to return, but when/what will that be? The government that I once had faith in now don't seem to have a bloody clue and we're just going round in cirles.
And all the while people are dying in their hundreds, and I feel incredibly selfish for writing what I have becasue of that.
Sorry for the rant, hoping getting it off my chest a bit helps
		
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We went for a walk this afternoon because cabin fever was setting in. Like you I'm well and truly fed up with it now. Ideally, we'd be in London now seeing the new grandson and making sure the daughters were ok - all 3 of which have a issue at present. In fact we would have been back in the UK 3 months ago. We don't want to bring anything nasty back to 3 daughters who are vulnerable. When do we come back? After getting the vaccine? Mid-June?

What other people do, mask/no mask, party or whatever is up to them. We have a neighbour who completely ignored the first lockdown, and is doing the same with the current one we're halfway through. They know not to come knocking on my door if they get ill. I told them straight, if our other neighbours get it I have no problem doing whatever they need but if the selfish ones get it, they're on their own as far as I'm concerned.

All we can do is lower our expectations and make the most of what opportunities come our way. Hunker down, be safe and plan for the future. We're planning a big family bash in New York for next October, vaccine permitting.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 22, 2020)

Ok can we park the police dog thing to one side and get the thread back on track


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## Ethan (Nov 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I think tody is the first time I've admitte to myself that I'm starting to struggle. The first lockdown wasn't too bad, the weather was great, I was furloghed the kids were off etc, it was liveable with, but I don't like winter months at the best of times and this year I'm really starting to feel it.  I'm sick of the whoe thing now, sick of living like this, not being able to play the game I love (and hate) despite it being probably the most covid secure thing you do. Sick of having remembering to grab a bloody mask before I go out anywhere, sick of being told I can't go out anyway, sick of being talked to like a piece of dog crap for daring to ask someone to put a mask on on public transport, for them to wave an 'exemption card', which they've downloaded off the web, in my face because wearing a bit of cloth over their face for a few minutes makes them a bit anxious and they can't breathe. No, you can't breath because you're the weight of a horse and you smoke 40 B+H a day you fat selfish slob. But I can't say that as I will lose my job so I just have to smile politely and get on with it, whilst getting more grief from mask wearing passengers for not enforcing the mask rule. I'm sick of my childrens education being harmed as they constantly have to take time off due to another child/teacher testing positive. The job I loved disappeared, literally overnight, and there's no sign of it coming back any time soon. I just want this over now and some kind of normality to return, but when/what will that be? The government that I once had faith in now don't seem to have a bloody clue and we're just going round in cirles.
And all the while people are dying in their hundreds, and I feel incredibly selfish for writing what I have becasue of that.
Sorry for the rant, hoping getting it off my chest a bit helps
		
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I have a real issue with the self-exemptions too. Asthma, COPD and a bunch of other conditions are reasons you really should wear a damn mask, not reasons not to. Kids with autism and people with a proper medically certified psychiatric condition such as trigeminal neuralgia where facial contact can be very painful, maybe, but that is about it.


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## Old Skier (Nov 22, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			We went for a walk this afternoon because cabin fever was setting in. Like you I'm well and truly fed up with it now. Ideally, we'd be in London now seeing the new grandson and making sure the daughters were ok - all 3 of which have a issue at present. In fact we would have been back in the UK 3 months ago. We don't want to bring anything nasty back to 3 daughters who are vulnerable. When do we come back? After getting the vaccine? Mid-June?

What other people do, mask/no mask, party or whatever is up to them. We have a neighbour who completely ignored the first lockdown, and is doing the same with the current one we're halfway through. They know not to come knocking on my door if they get ill. I told them straight, if our other neighbours get it I have no problem doing whatever they need but if the selfish ones get it, they're on their own as far as I'm concerned.

All we can do is lower our expectations and make the most of what opportunities come our way. Hunker down, be safe and plan for the future. We're planning a big family bash in New York for next October, vaccine permitting.
		
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Sounds like a plan, I’m changing my name to Elrond.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 22, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok can we park the police dog thing to one side and get the thread back on track
		
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Should that not be sit; or stay?


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2020)

Oxford/AZ results

Interesting results, showing good efficacy but not as good as Pfizer or Moderna. 90% reduction in the group who got a half dose then a full dose, 62% in the group who got 2 full doses with an overall effect of 70%. This seems counter-intuitive, so needs further explanation. Many of us suspected this might be the case. Still, likely to be available in large quantities and seemed to prevent people from getting severe disease.

I note that the studies were rather small, total less than 12,000 (2700 in the half-full group and 9000 in the 2 x full) compared with 30,000+ in Pfizer/Moderna. This must mean that very small numbers of subjects got Covid in the 90% subset, and the result must therefore have large confidence intervals around it. 

Based on these results, I would probably prefer the Pfizer or Moderna, but this one is OK too.


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## SteveJay (Nov 23, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			so you do't know about dogs but have to bash someone making expert, balanced and insightful comments! Well done - you win snowflake of the month award
		
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Suggest you read before posting....I said I DO KNOW about dogs. Idiot.


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## Kellfire (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think we need to rethink the law a bit.
Anyone committing a criminal act should have their rights suspended until they stop that criminal act.
Far to many people think they can just do what they want.
		
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Forget the dog argument, that’s been exhausted but surely we need to discuss this!

You think people should lose their human rights the moment they break the law? Who decides they’re breaking the law? The police? An impartial observer?

Methinks your suggestion is made in good faith but would purely be the act of a tyrannical nation. It’s the sort of thing you hear about in despicable countries like Saudi Arabia!


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## DRW (Nov 23, 2020)

Oxford University breakthrough on global COVID-19 vaccine | University of Oxford

Whilst disappointing at 70%(or the slightly weird reading 90% result), one of the most important factors is the number of severe cases with vaccine, who cares if the 30% all end up with say like a cold or perhaps worse(just trying to be positive) and it says :-





There were no hospitalised or severe cases in anyone who received the vaccine


Click to expand...




So a great result and great news in the main, quicker to hit our shores . Feeling upbeat


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Forget the dog argument, that’s been exhausted but surely we need to discuss this!

You think people should lose their human rights the moment they break the law? Who decides they’re breaking the law? The police? An impartial observer?

Methinks your suggestion is made in good faith but would purely be the act of a tyrannical nation. It’s the sort of thing you hear about in despicable countries like Saudi Arabia!
		
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I never mentioned HUMAN RIGHTS. You have made that up!
I said suspended while in the act of a crime.
Far to many criminals end up better off than their victims once our soft courts have “ dealt with them”


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I never mentioned HUMAN RIGHTS. You have made that up!
I said suspended while in the act of a crime.
Far to many criminals end up better off than their victims once our soft courts have “ dealt with them”
		
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#

So youre suggesting I can batter and mame shoplifters, even kill I guess.


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## Kellfire (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I never mentioned HUMAN RIGHTS. You have made that up!
I said suspended while in the act of a crime.
Far to many criminals end up better off than their victims once our soft courts have “ dealt with them”
		
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What rights were you talking about if not their human rights? 

And you haven’t answered a crucial question - who decides in the heat of the moment what is a crime? There’s a reason we have a justice system and what you’re suggesting would mean suspending that justice system in favour of vigilantism.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What rights were you talking about if not their human rights? 

And you haven’t answered a crucial question - who decides in the heat of the moment what is a crime? There’s a reason we have a justice system and what you’re suggesting would mean suspending that justice system in favour of vigilantism.
		
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I think you are confusing some little s Croat of a burglar with a refugee or oppressed minority in a tyrannical  country ,
The police decide in this country if you are committing a crime.
They tell you what law they are arresting you under when they read you your rights.

Human rights obviously mean different things to you .
Is it in your “human rights “  to be able to sue a firm because you fell through their roof while trying to break in?
The Human Rights card played again for a minor crime diminishes it.
What about the VICTIMS RIGHTS.


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## Kellfire (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think you are confusing some little s Croat of a burglar with a refugee or oppressed minority in a tyrannical  country ,
The police decide in this country if you are committing a crime.
They tell you what law they are arresting you under when they read you your rights.

Human rights obviously mean different things to you .
Is it in your “human rights “  to be able to sue a firm because you fell through their roof while trying to break in?
The Human Rights card played again for a minor crime diminishes it.
What about the VICTIMS RIGHTS.
		
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Actually no - the police arrest you because you are suspected of committing a crime, guilt is not a given. Your premise falls apart at the first step. 

So are you advocating that the police should be given the power to determine guilt and subvert the court system?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Actually no - the police arrest you because you are suspected of committing a crime, guilt is not a given. Your premise falls apart at the first step.

So are you advocating that the police should be given the power to determine guilt and subvert the court system?
		
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It’s hard to discuss something with you as you just make your own assumptions.
Show me where I said anyone was Guilty.


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Actually no - the police arrest you because you are suspected of committing a crime, guilt is not a given. Your premise falls apart at the first step.

So are you advocating that the police should be given the power to determine guilt and subvert the court system?
		
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That's 5 years in an iso cube perp.


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s hard to discuss something with you as you just make your own assumptions.
Show me where I said anyone was Guilty.
		
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Who successfully sued some one for falling through the roof during a burglary?


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## Beedee (Nov 23, 2020)

I know threads evolve, but this has what to do with Coronavirus?  Don't suppose you could take this one elsewhere so I can ignore it easier?


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## Kellfire (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Show me where I said anyone was Guilty.
		
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Here —> “The police decide in this country if you are committing a crime.”

So I’ll ask again if you can confirm you’re advocating giving the police the power to determine guilt?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Who successfully sued some one for falling through the roof during a burglary?
		
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There have been a few.
Do remember a young boy got a lot of money once for life changing injuries.
Sued the building owners he was burgling.


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## DCB (Nov 23, 2020)

Okay ...back on track please, this is the 
*Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?*
thread.

Lets keep it on track.


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			There have been a few.
Do remember a young boy got a lot of money once for life changing injuries.
Sued the building owners he was burgling.
		
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No i dont.


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## Kellfire (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			There have been a few.
Do remember a young boy got a lot of money once for life changing injuries.
Sued the building owners he was burgling.
		
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If a burglar successfully sued someone for their injuries then it means that a court of law has deemed that a law was broken.

I thought you were all about laws being obeyed so surely it’s right that there is a payout of a court has determined that?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Here —> “The police decide in this country if you are committing a crime.”

So I’ll ask again if you can confirm you’re advocating giving the police the power to determine guilt?
		
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The police arrest you in the act of committing a crime.
They then have to prove that in court.
You still havnt showed me where I said anyone was GUILTY.,!
You asked “in the heat of the moment who decides what is a crime?“ who do you think decides ?
For me it’s the Police.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 23, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Where have I said the police can do no wrong? Nowhere. I’ve been around police officers for a lifetime, and worked amongst them for thirty years. The vast majority are great. Some get it wrong, sometimes badly. Of those who get it wrong some make mistakes and some are dishonest, corrupt, and hide behind their uniforms as a way of bullying people. Nobody knows more than a police officer how wrong the police sometimes get it.

But I will always defend the organisation I work for when it comes in for narrow minded criticism from people who, in the main, do not have the foggiest idea what goes on in the world of policing. You call that being holier than thou? That’s your opinion. But I’m not going to roll over and have my tummy tickled (forgive the canine analogy), just to satisfy the likes of you.
		
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Well said. It always mystifies me the way that the do gooders criticise those that protect them. 
Takes me back to when I was a kid watching cowboy films. The town is terrorised by the baddies. No one will stand up to them. 
Then along comes the good guy who is prepared to deal with them in the only way there is to stop them. 
Next thing you know, he is accused of being violent and a nasty person etc etc.

The "sheep" on here who want to recruit other sheep to protect us from the wolves. 
Don't want those nasty men with their dogs🙄


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If a burglar successfully sued someone for their injuries then it means that a court of law has deemed that a law was broken.

I thought you were all about laws being obeyed so surely it’s right that there is a payout of a court has determined that?
		
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In the act of a CRIME he should have no right to sue anybody if he hurts himself.
The firm were deemed guilty because the building was in a poor state of repair.
But argued he should not be on it.
But as the law stands the criminal has more rights than the victims.


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2020)

Could you guys put a few of these posts on a lead and take them for a walk to another thread, please?

New vaccine data today!


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Could you guys put a few of these posts on a lead and take them for a walk to another thread, please?

New vaccine data today!
		
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Honest question for you and hopefully not coming across as too paranoid. The car park I use for work is being partly converted into a covid testing center. Is there any discernible increased risk from keeping on with parking there (thinking of footfall with potential infection coming in contact with my car, general proximity to a queue of people that think they may have covid etc.


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Honest question for you and hopefully not coming across as too paranoid. The car park I use for work is being partly converted into a covid testing center. Is there any discernible increased risk from keeping on with parking there (thinking of footfall with potential infection coming in contact with my car, general proximity to a queue of people that think they may have covid etc.
		
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No. Few in the queue will have Covid, and it is outdoors, which massively reduces risk, and even then you would have to get close for a period of time to a case.


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No. Few in the queue will have Covid, and it is outdoors, which massively reduces risk, and even then you would have to get close for a period of time to a case.
		
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Thank you. Thought that may be the case but nice to have some reassurance.


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## Beedee (Nov 23, 2020)

Another one for @Ethan.  Once the stage 3 results are published, are the volunteers told whether they had the vaccine or the placebo?  Just curious.


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## Backache (Nov 23, 2020)

Beedee said:



			Another one for @Ethan.  Once the stage 3 results are published, are the volunteers told whether they had the vaccine or the placebo?  Just curious.
		
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They will be told when they are offered a vaccine according to a friend in the trial.


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2020)

Backache said:



			They will be told when they are offered a vaccine according to a friend in the trial.
		
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The protocols are sometimes a little different from study to study, but in general people will be told after the blind is broken, and that happens after the database is locked. That should be independent of the national vaccination programme, so you shouldn't have to wait longer to know if you happen to be in a low priority part of the population. It is also normal practice for people who take part in a trial such as this to be offered the real vaccine, ahead of the usual population rollout, if they are found to have been randomly allocated to placebo. Those who received the vaccine will be followed up for longer term safety and efficacy study.


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## 4LEX (Nov 23, 2020)

Anyone that is struggling like Saint Hacker, just hang in there. Another week of this then golf and Christmas to look forward to. January will be a bad month but isn't it always? The vaccine roll out will be well underway and evenings getting lighter as we head into February. It'll get better with each week. Just think of spring in the air, Easter approaching, all the bank holidays to come and the buzz of appreciating all the small things again. You might even have a good golf year and be moaning about people not taking the pin out


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Just seen on the itv news.
When we come out of lockdown, tier 2 can have longer hours in the pub.
But tier 3 can’t open at all.
This seems illogical to me as longer hours in the pub could mean moving from tier 2 to tier 3.
People can’t need a drink that much surley. But suppose some do!


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Anyone that is struggling like Saint Hacker, just hang in there. Another week of this then golf and Christmas to look forward to. January will be a bad month but isn't it always? The vaccine roll out will be well underway and evenings getting lighter as we head into February. It'll get better with each week. Just think of spring in the air, Easter approaching, all the bank holidays to come and the buzz of appreciating all the small things again. You might even have a good golf year and be moaning about people not taking the pin out 

Click to expand...

Yes our stupid little problems seem very small when you see people really struggling.
It won’t be long let’s hang in there.


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just seen on the itv news.
When we come out of lockdown, tier 2 can have longer hours in the pub.
But tier 3 can’t open at all.
This seems illogical to me as longer hours in the pub could mean moving from tier 2 to tier 3.
People can’t need a drink that much surley. But suppose some do!
		
Click to expand...

The proposal as I see it is that last orders are still at 10.00 but an hour of drinking up time allowed to try and reduce the crowds on the streets with everyone leaving at the same time.


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just seen on the itv news.
When we come out of lockdown, tier 2 can have longer hours in the pub.
But tier 3 can’t open at all.
This seems illogical to me as longer hours in the pub could mean moving from tier 2 to tier 3.
People can’t need a drink that much surley. But suppose some do!
		
Click to expand...

I guess some of it is how you look at your local pub. In my village it is one of the central hubs of the community. People just go there to chat. Many people who are own their own use it as their main place of social contact but a local village pub serves a very different function in life. At present, the landlord is providing free meals to the over 70s in the community to make sure they are doing OK.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			The proposal as I see it is that last orders are still at 10.00 but an hour of drinking up time allowed to try and reduce the crowds on the streets with everyone leaving at the same time.
		
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That just means order enough to last you until 11 pm then all spill on the streets at 11pm not 10pm.
Might make sense for the pubs profits but that’s all imo.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I guess some of it is how you look at your local pub. In my village it is one of the central hubs of the community. People just go there to chat. Many people who are own their own use it as their main place of social contact but a local village pub serves a very different function in life. At present, the landlord is providing free meals to the over 70s in the community to make sure they are doing OK.
		
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That sounds great and good on the landlord.
But it’s very different in a big City.


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			That sounds great and good on the landlord.
But it’s very different in a big City.
		
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It is but I just wanted to put across a point that pubs, certainly in rural communities, play an important role and so the calls by some to get pubs open is sometimes based on their wider reaching significance to a community as opposed to just a need to meet up with mates and get hammered.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			It is but I just wanted to put across a point that pubs, certainly in rural communities, play an important role and so the calls by some to get pubs open is sometimes based on their wider reaching significance to a community as opposed to just a need to meet up with mates and get hammered.
		
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Yes I do get that.
Unfortunately they are treating them like outdoor sport.
All closed no matter the risk factor.


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I do get that.
Unfortunately they are treating them like outdoor sport.
All closed no matter the risk factor.
		
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Sort of agree with it at the moment. The risk at my pub is minimal but the difficulty of differentiating between risks and then the issue of stopping people from the nearby towns coming to safe village pubs if their pub is shut is just too much to enforce at the moment. Sometimes have to accept that a hammer is being used to crack a nut simply because it is far too difficult or long winded to find the nut crackers.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Sort of agree with it at the moment. The risk at my pub is minimal but the difficulty of differentiating between risks and then the issue of stopping people from the nearby towns coming to safe village pubs if their pub is shut is just too much to enforce at the moment. Sometimes have to accept that a hammer is being used to crack a nut simply because it is far too difficult or long winded to find the nut crackers.
		
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Yes that’s hit the nail on the head.
If your pub was open everyone from nearby towns/ city would travel there to have a drink.
You are then putting your residents in danger.
No real answer to this .


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes that’s hit the nail on the head.
If your pub was open everyone from nearby towns/ city would travel there to have a drink.
You are then putting your residents in danger.
No real answer to this .
		
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I know that this business of restrictions has been a real pain for some, far more than for some others, but are not some of us mystified as to why now, just as the vaccine is so near,  is it being encouraged/permitted for people to *meet indoors* ( beyond households/bubbles).
It is this that has spread the virus into the second spike. It will do so again.
Those that know about these things, Sage and our own Ethan here, have been saying this, and yet we are inviting chaos to raise its ugly head just before the vaccine is here.


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## drdel (Nov 23, 2020)

Why  is it that common sense means that faced with a highly contagious virus spread by social interaction we still need the Government to TELL us what to do.

And then complain when they do!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 23, 2020)

drdel said:



			Why  is it that common sense means that faced with a highly contagious virus spread by social interaction we still need the Government to TELL us what to do.

And then complain when they do!
		
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I find the gov need to set a limit ...you get those who obey.. those who will break it slightly (for example one household bubble will be 2 bubbles) and those who ignore it

You hope enough people go for a slight break and it balances out the people who ignore


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 23, 2020)

We have things all planned out up to about Easter now, in a way any lockdowns can’t throw it off track.

The rules look like they will allow the normal Christmas Day we would have had with households mixing but rules out the interactions either side, reducing us from over 6 households and over 30 people down to what the rules allow.

It is a waiting game to see what rules allow and what each households want to and which dont want to mix as I think there will be contrasting views amongst the groups.

I’m hoping we keep mixing minimal and stay with our current split so only two household mix at maximum, that means 5 at our Xmas table and over any period of rules relaxed. Two may mix with another household or more but who knows how the rules work yet!

We are all pretty compromising but i wonder what might happen elsewhere where tensions exist and people may get left the wrong side of a line.


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## Hobbit (Nov 23, 2020)

Way back in early March a very dear friend was told that the various treatments and medicines had stopped working and that the tumours(metastisised) located throughout her body were growing again. The only option left to slow them down again was to have another course of chemo. All it would do was buy some more time. Without it she had 2 weeks to live.

And then along came lockdown. As was feared her chemo date was pushed back indefinitely, initially. Her chemo started in week 3. I have never known anyone be so ill, and in so many different ways. Chemo would be stopped, because she was so ill, and then restarted, then stopped, then restarted. During the next 6 months she also had numerous visits and stays in hospital, blood transfusions, drains etc. All those visits and stays were done alone.

Early Sept she was told her body couldn't take any more chemo and that all they could do was provide palliative care. I spoke to her, via Skype, in early October 5 days before she died. The images will haunt me for a long, long time.

Her ambition when she went through her first round of chemo mid 2019 was to see Christmas. And her ambition this year when she was offered chemo was to see Christmas this year. Did having the chemo pushed back 3 weeks mean she missed Christmas? Who knows, but when I see and hear people ignoring the lockdown rules, and giving all sorts of excuses I could quite literally take a base ball bat to them. If they won't do it for themselves there's plenty of people who need them to do it.


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Way back in early March a very dear friend was told that the various treatments and medicines had stopped working and that the tumours(metastisised) located throughout her body were growing again. The only option left to slow them down again was to have another course of chemo. All it would do was buy some more time. Without it she had 2 weeks to live.

And then along came lockdown. As was feared her chemo date was pushed back indefinitely, initially. Her chemo started in week 3. I have never known anyone be so ill, and in so many different ways. Chemo would be stopped, because she was so ill, and then restarted, then stopped, then restarted. During the next 6 months she also had numerous visits and stays in hospital, blood transfusions, drains etc. All those visits and stays were done alone.

Early Sept she was told her body couldn't take any more chemo and that all they could do was provide palliative care. I spoke to her, via Skype, in early October 5 days before she died. The images will haunt me for a long, long time.

Her ambition when she went through her first round of chemo mid 2019 was to see Christmas. And her ambition this year when she was offered chemo was to see Christmas this year. Did having the chemo pushed back 3 weeks mean she missed Christmas? Who knows, but when I see and hear people ignoring the lockdown rules, and giving all sorts of excuses I could quite literally take a base ball bat to them. If they won't do it for themselves there's plenty of people who need them to do it.
		
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That sounds bad. It is very difficult to do the 'if only ...' thing in a situation like that. I doubt the 3 week delay made much of a difference. It sounds like she gave it a good fight but was always going to lose.

From a personal point of view, when my number is up and the ticket booked, I am not sure I want too many heroic treatments like chemo. I think for some people (not your friend, necessarily), end of life treatments prolong death rather then life. Each to their own, though.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Way back in early March a very dear friend was told that the various treatments and medicines had stopped working and that the tumours(metastisised) located throughout her body were growing again. The only option left to slow them down again was to have another course of chemo. All it would do was buy some more time. Without it she had 2 weeks to live.

And then along came lockdown. As was feared her chemo date was pushed back indefinitely, initially. Her chemo started in week 3. I have never known anyone be so ill, and in so many different ways. Chemo would be stopped, because she was so ill, and then restarted, then stopped, then restarted. During the next 6 months she also had numerous visits and stays in hospital, blood transfusions, drains etc. All those visits and stays were done alone.

Early Sept she was told her body couldn't take any more chemo and that all they could do was provide palliative care. I spoke to her, via Skype, in early October 5 days before she died. The images will haunt me for a long, long time.

Her ambition when she went through her first round of chemo mid 2019 was to see Christmas. And her ambition this year when she was offered chemo was to see Christmas this year. Did having the chemo pushed back 3 weeks mean she missed Christmas? Who knows, but when I see and hear people ignoring the lockdown rules, and giving all sorts of excuses I could quite literally take a base ball bat to them. If they won't do it for themselves there's plenty of people who need them to do it.
		
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Couldn’t of put it better myself Bri. Unfortunately too many selfish people who don’t think it affects them.


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## Kellfire (Nov 23, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Way back in early March a very dear friend was told that the various treatments and medicines had stopped working and that the tumours(metastisised) located throughout her body were growing again. The only option left to slow them down again was to have another course of chemo. All it would do was buy some more time. Without it she had 2 weeks to live.

And then along came lockdown. As was feared her chemo date was pushed back indefinitely, initially. Her chemo started in week 3. I have never known anyone be so ill, and in so many different ways. Chemo would be stopped, because she was so ill, and then restarted, then stopped, then restarted. During the next 6 months she also had numerous visits and stays in hospital, blood transfusions, drains etc. All those visits and stays were done alone.

Early Sept she was told her body couldn't take any more chemo and that all they could do was provide palliative care. I spoke to her, via Skype, in early October 5 days before she died. The images will haunt me for a long, long time.

Her ambition when she went through her first round of chemo mid 2019 was to see Christmas. And her ambition this year when she was offered chemo was to see Christmas this year. Did having the chemo pushed back 3 weeks mean she missed Christmas? Who knows, but when I see and hear people ignoring the lockdown rules, and giving all sorts of excuses I could quite literally take a base ball bat to them. If they won't do it for themselves there's plenty of people who need them to do it.
		
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I’ve been through similar this year with my girlfriend having to isolate and basically see no one because of her chemotherapy, and then other people just seem carefree as “it only affects old, fat people”.

This year has brought the worst out in a lot of people.


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## Billysboots (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			This year has brought the worst out in a lot of people.
		
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I am genuinely looking forward to seeing how we have all changed when this is all over.

I’m generally a glass half full person, and am clinging to the hope that this awful period has made some of us more tolerant, and certainly more able to see life in a decent perspective.

It might be only small, but there will be some good come from all this. There has to be.


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## Kellfire (Nov 23, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I am genuinely looking forward to seeing how we have all changed when this is all over.

I’m generally a glass half full person, and am clinging to the hope that this awful period has made some of us more tolerant, and certainly more able to see life in a decent perspective.

It might be only small, but there will be some good come from all this. There has to be.
		
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There won’t be any good from this year for me, I’m afraid. Without doubt it’s the worst year of my life and nothing could possibly happen to even slightly soften the pain I’m enduring at the moment. But I hope others can find some happiness from the madness around us.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			#

So youre suggesting I can batter and mame shoplifters, even kill I guess.
		
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Am I
Can you show me where I said that please?


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I know that this business of restrictions has been a real pain for some, far more than for some others, but are not some of us mystified as to why now, just as the vaccine is so near,  is it being encouraged/permitted for people to *meet indoors* ( beyond households/bubbles).
It is this that has spread the virus into the second spike. It will do so again.
Those that know about these things, Sage and our own Ethan here, have been saying this, and yet we are inviting chaos to raise its ugly head just before the vaccine is here.
		
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They only listen to the science when it suits them.
Anyone surprised.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 23, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			There won’t be any good from this year for me, I’m afraid. Without doubt it’s the worst year of my life and nothing could possibly happen to even slightly soften the pain I’m enduring at the moment. But I hope others can find some happiness from the madness around us.
		
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Well I hope things improve for you going forward.
Been a mad year your right there.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 23, 2020)

After my post yesterday I just want to publicly thank a few people for the messages of support I recieved. I won't embarrass them by naming but they know who they are, thank you.
Like I said I feel even worse for feeling like this as I know there are many people, both out in the real world and on here, going through far far worse than me, but itis what it is and its something I've got to deal with. Knowing that I am not alone in that is big help in itself.
So with that in mind, if anyone else could do with a chat, or a rant or whatever, the DM button is always available


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

Seriously hoping that my area returns to Tier 1 as it was before the lockdown. Selfish I know but if we are put in to tier 2 it could be March before I get to meet up with any of my friends in the village (in laws won't back down on us going their for Xmas if allowed despite it meaning that they are the only people we will get to see, potentially until March, if the lockdown is set at tier 2). May seem small minded but I have not met up with anyone outside of work for a while now and the thought if keeping that up for another 4 months (including my birthday) is filling me with a bit of dread. Having worked solidly without a day off since last Xmas, I could really do with a 5 day relaxation of rules where I can meet friends and let loose a bit but any break over Xmas will be spend sat at the inlaws.


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Seriously hoping that my area returns to Tier 1 as it was before the lockdown. Selfish I know but if we are put in to tier 2 it could be March before I get to meet up with any of my friends in the village (in laws won't back down on us going their for Xmas if allowed despite it meaning that they are the only people we will get to see, potentially until March, if the lockdown is set at tier 2). May seem small minded but I have not met up with anyone outside of work for a while now and the thought if keeping that up for another 4 months (including my birthday) is filling me with a bit of dread. Having worked solidly without a day off since last Xmas, I could really do with a 5 day relaxation of rules where I can meet friends and let loose a bit but any break over Xmas will be spend sat at the inlaws.
		
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I would brace for Tier 2 being the new normal for most of England, and some places not too far away from you will be in Tier 3.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I would brace for Tier 2 being the new normal for most of England, and some places not too far away from you will be in Tier 3.
		
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Pretty much what I am expecting. With Tier 3 areas on most of the Lincolnshire boarders then it was almost inevitable that we would be moving up the tiers at some stage. Only hope we have is that we are South Kesteven and so not as bad as some areas of Lincolnshire are.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That sounds bad. It is very difficult to do the 'if only ...' thing in a situation like that. I doubt the 3 week delay made much of a difference. It sounds like she gave it a good fight but was always going to lose.

From a personal point of view, when my number is up and the ticket booked, I am not sure I want too many heroic treatments like chemo. I think for some people (not your friend, necessarily), end of life treatments prolong death rather then life. Each to their own, though.
		
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"end of life treatments prolong death rather then life"

And  I had never looked it like that before.  ☹👍


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			"end of life treatments prolong death rather then life"

And  I had never looked it like that before.  ☹👍
		
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A few years ago, there was a survey conducted among doctors about whether they would accept chemo and other treatments if they had terminal cancer, and there was a higher rejection rate than in a parallel survey of the general public.


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## DRW (Nov 24, 2020)

For alot of us, when its announced on Thursday, I think its going to end in tiers


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## DRW (Nov 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			"end of life treatments prolong death rather then life"

And  I had never looked it like that before.  ☹👍
		
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We are all going to die, just a case of when and how.

Really depends on your outlook, bit like half glass/half empty outlook. 

My dad went though hell on his journey battle with cancer, certainly not something I would ever wish to travel the same path, as I value quality over quantity, already given my thoughts to my family if something happens to me.

However, he would have done anything to extend his life, was always his outlook, far play to him and I took off my hat to him, more than once on that journey.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			A few years ago, there was a survey conducted among doctors about whether they would accept chemo and other treatments if they had terminal cancer, and there was a higher rejection rate than in a parallel survey of the general public.
		
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My dad certainly stopped treatment once it was clear that there was nothing to be done. Diagnosed in the December, passed on 1st March. Less than 12 weeks in all.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 24, 2020)

I quoted ethans post as me and Missis T both have elderly parents. His comment may well be used as advice in the coming years, hopefully decades. 
Oddly enough me and Missis T were smiling the other day saying our problems through this Covid seem to be dealing with other peoples and families problems. It’s what I call a happy problem.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			My dad certainly stopped treatment once it was clear that there was nothing to be done. Diagnosed in the December, passed on 1st March. Less than 12 weeks in all.
		
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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			A few years ago, there was a survey conducted among doctors about whether they would accept chemo and other treatments if they had terminal cancer, and there was a higher rejection rate than in a parallel survey of the general public.
		
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I've played golf for many years with a GP. He had strong views on prolonging death and was in favour of assisted death. I agree with him. We wouldn't let a dog suffer but argue that a human should...

The young lady, 47, I spoke of earlier in the thread always said she wouldn't have chemo but changed her mind when there was no other choice.

I'm all for a bottle of pills and a damn good single malt.


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## Babyliss (Nov 24, 2020)

This situation depresses me very much


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've played golf for many years with a GP. He had strong views on prolonging death and was in favour of assisted death. I agree with him. We wouldn't let a dog suffer but argue that a human should...

The young lady, 47, I spoke of earlier in the thread always said she wouldn't have chemo but changed her mind when there was no other choice.

I'm all for a bottle of pills and a damn good single malt.
		
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And if people want chemo or other treatments, they should have them, but be made aware that sometimes the side effects can have the opposite effect. Assisted death is a controversial issue in the medical profession, the BMA has changed its mind a few times. All I know is that when I get an end stage neurodegenerative condition in which life is not worth living, I am happy for it to stop.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			And if people want chemo or other treatments, they should have them, but be made aware that sometimes the side effects can have the opposite effect. Assisted death is a controversial issue in the medical profession, the BMA has changed its mind a few times. All I know is that when I get an end stage neurodegenerative condition in which life is not worth living, I am happy for it to stop.
		
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Just been through this with the mother-in-law, initial diagnosis was breast Cancer back in 2003, went through a mastectomy and hormone treatment and got through the initial 5 years, sadly in 2017 it returned as metastatic breast cancer widespread in her bones and after discussion she said she wouldn’t have chemo, still we got a diagnosis of 3-5yrs.

Sadly she passed away on sunday just short of 4 years since it returned.

Extremely brave lady, but I must say the last 2 weeks were the worst, watching her, knowing she was dying just lying there slowly drifting away, it was beyond cruel! I find it a complete mind blow that we can put a cat or dog out of their misery, but a human we have to stand back and let time take it’s course.

Don’t get me wrong the staff in the Hospice were beyond reproach, but how they can go through that time and time again with patients and their familes tells me how special some of our NHS Staff are, and thank god we have them.


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just been through this with the mother-in-law, initial diagnosis was breast Cancer back in 2003, went through a mastectomy and hormone treatment and got through the initial 5 years, sadly in 2017 it returned as metastatic breast cancer widespread in her bones and after discussion she said she wouldn’t have chemo, still we got a diagnosis of 3-5yrs.

Sadly she passed away on sunday just short of 4 years since it returned.

Extremely brave lady, but I must say the last 2 weeks were the worst, watching her, knowing she was dying just lying there slowly drifting away, it was beyond cruel! I find it a complete mind blow that we can put a cat or dog out of their misery, but a human we have to stand back and let time take it’s course.

Don’t get me wrong the staff in the Hospice were beyond reproach, but how they can go through that time and time again with patients and their familes tells me how special some of our NHS Staff are, and thank god we have them.
		
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Working in a hospice or in palliative care takes a special sort of person. As a medical student, I realised I was not that sort of person. 

I am originally from Ireland (per the avatar) and there is a slightly different attitude to death there. The idea that there are worse things than dying is more embedded in the culture.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

Have to admit that I am really struggling at the moment mentally. The thought of being in Tier 2 for the foreseeable pretty much fills me with dread. Selfish I know as people have it far worse than me but seeing my friends at the weekend is a massive stress reliever and helps me get work out of my system. To think that I will continue to be deprived of that for a continued period is really nagging at me. The last lockdown was easier. Used to sit outside on the drive with a bottle of wine and chat with people as they went past on their daily exercise. Once outdoor meetings were allowed it was great and we would all sit in the garden until the early hours of the morning with a few bottles of wine just chatting away. None of that seems possible or attractive over Winter and so all I am doing is working and hanging round the house. The idea of a break at Xmas was a bit of a shining light but the inlaws have made it clear that, as it is our turn to visit them, they expect us down their over Xmas (their other children have kids so play the 'we have to stay at home with them' card). As such, really not going to be able to make the most of any Xmas relaxation to have a few days of normal life. 

Most of this is pretty much first world problems. I have a job, a wife so not on my own, food on the table and a roof over my head to doing much better than some but the idea of not being able to meet people inside for a period potentially up to March is really playing on me at the moment.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Seriously hoping that my area returns to Tier 1 as it was before the lockdown. Selfish I know but if we are put in to tier 2 it could be March before I get to meet up with any of my friends in the village (in laws won't back down on us going their for Xmas if allowed despite it meaning that they are the only people we will get to see, potentially until March, if the lockdown is set at tier 2). May seem small minded but I have not met up with anyone outside of work for a while now and the thought if keeping that up for another 4 months (including my birthday) is filling me with a bit of dread. Having worked solidly without a day off since last Xmas, I could really do with a 5 day relaxation of rules where I can meet friends and let loose a bit but any break over Xmas will be spend sat at the inlaws.
		
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If I had not had a day off for a year I would put my foot down and tell hid your not going.
Is it worth the hassle ? Only you can answer that.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If I had not had a day off for a year I would put my foot down and tell hid your not going.
Is it worth the hassle ? Only you can answer that.
		
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Not really. She has not seen her mum much this year and so is happy to go and we have both told our families that we have been alternating going to their xmas meals for long enough now (both nearly 50) and so they were getting one more each. Offered to change her family's last one to next year so as it would be more normal but they were not keen on that. 

My best hopes now are travel restrictions or a ban on overnight stays so as I can do Newbury and back in a day. that would at least give me the rest of the xmas period to arrange more local evenings.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not really. She has not seen her mum much this year and so is happy to go and we have both told our families that we have been alternating going to their xmas meals for long enough now (both nearly 50) and so they were getting one more each. Offered to change her family's last one to next year so as it would be more normal but they were not keen on that.

My best hopes now are travel restrictions or a ban on overnight stays so as I can do Newbury and back in a day. that would at least give me the rest of the xmas period to arrange more local evenings.
		
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Well I hope it goes your way.
That’s a long time not to have a day off work.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well I hope it goes your way.
That’s a long time not to have a day off work.
		
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Don't I know it. Was going to have time off then there was lockdown one and so it seemed pointless plus I was gald to be picked as one not on furlough, then we came out of lockdown to a property boom and so worked through that then was planning time off just as lockdown 2 started. Add to that people off on self isolation etc and the last day off I had was the time off last Xmas.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

I guess the one thing that I will say is that I will not complain because one thing is permitted and another is not. Everyone has that one thing that makes this all a little more bearable. Understandably, for many on this forum it is a round of golf but that thing could be a meal with friends, a quiet pint in the local, walking around shops, being able to go to the gym. Everyone has something that they miss more than anything else so my aim is to be happy when something else is permitted as that may be the thing that really brings a smile to someone's face,  rather than rally against it because, in my mind. it is more of a risk than the activity I want to do. Whatever is permitted, there are going to always be many who will do it correctly and safely and idiots who will flaunt the rules and increase the risk (golf included) and it is only ever those flaunting the rules that will appear in the media.


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## IanM (Nov 24, 2020)

Folk have all gone nuts.   Just spent an hour in the car with the radio on for much of it.

TalkSport have run endless programming since resumption of footy "demanding" that fans are let back into stadiums. 

Now it is about to happen, Jim White kept moaning that it wasn't safe or appropriate.  Simon Jordon (of course) has a better way of doing it! 

Meanwhile, Boris has ordered that Old Trafford remain shut, as the fans have suffered enough!    (pick any ground you like!)


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## Backache (Nov 24, 2020)

Bit pf a pain because locally, one of things I'm allowed to do is play golf unfortunately the weather is vile and the course flooded. Worse for others I guess.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 24, 2020)

Vaccine question @Ethan . Sooner or later another coronavirus is bound to emerge from somewhere (probably the same place as thisnone) . Although it will be a different virus to Covid will all the research and knowledge gained from this give us a decent headstart in producing another vaccine or will it be back to square one?


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## fundy (Nov 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Don't I know it. Was going to have time off then there was lockdown one and so it seemed pointless plus I was gald to be picked as one not on furlough, then we came out of lockdown to a property boom and so worked through that then was planning time off just as lockdown 2 started. Add to that people off on self isolation etc and the last day off I had was the time off last Xmas.
		
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Then just to make it worse you get clients phoning up and complaining that everyone bar you in the chain appears to be incompetent 

Sorry to hear youre battling, i think most of us are to some degree or another, as were all being affected to some degree, albeit often in very different ways and dont always appreciate the effect its having on others

If you need an ear to vent you know where i am!!!


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Vaccine question @Ethan . Sooner or later another coronavirus is bound to emerge from somewhere (probably the same place as thisnone) . Although it will be a different virus to Covid will all the research and knowledge gained from this give us a decent headstart in producing another vaccine or will it be back to square one?
		
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On the news yesterday they were saying that everything they have learnt from previous corona viruses has helped with this vaccine.
So I assume the more virus we have the more they will learn about it.
Hopefully they will just be able to tweak it to fit the new strain.
Ethan will let us know for sure.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

fundy said:



			Then just to make it worse you get clients phoning up and complaining that everyone bar you in the chain appears to be incompetent 

Sorry to hear youre battling, i think most of us are to some degree or another, as were all being affected to some degree, albeit often in very different ways and dont always appreciate the effect its having on others

If you need an ear to vent you know where i am!!!
		
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Need to see how Thursday goes, fully expecting to be in Tier 2 but if we end up back in Tier 1 then all is well in the world again.


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## Billysboots (Nov 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Vaccine question @Ethan . Sooner or later another coronavirus is bound to emerge from somewhere (probably the same place as thisnone) . Although it will be a different virus to Covid will all the research and knowledge gained from this give us a decent headstart in producing another vaccine or will it be back to square one?
		
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I’m not Ethan, but I think the answer to that has to be yes, given the Oxford Uni vaccine itself is a result of years of research, fine tuned for COVID-19.

Anyone who thinks this vaccine has been developed from scratch in eight months is rather misunderstanding the process I suspect.


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## fundy (Nov 24, 2020)

Is there any guide as to which tier places are likely to be in? Suspect theres a chance were in a higher tier here as we come under the same umbrella as Bournemouth these days, and cases have been quite high especially at/near the university


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 24, 2020)

fundy said:



			Is there any guide as to which tier places are likely to be in? Suspect theres a chance were in a higher tier here as we come under the same umbrella as Bournemouth these days, and cases have been quite high especially at/near the university
		
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I believe they are going to do it in regions, a bit more blunt, less targetted, this time, and then it depends on numbers and the trend. You can pretty much work it out from there.

I am expecting us to be in tier 3 as we get lumped as a NE region and there are a number of hot spots in the group. The numbers in Northumberland are not great still but we should probably be tier 2 rather than 3.

Anywhere with a university nearby is going to be in trouble so tier 2-3 here you come. The only places in tier 1 will be islands or remote tips of the country. I can't see any regular regions escaping 2 or 3 until mid December at the earliest. Just my reading of it.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I believe they are going to do it in regions, a bit more blunt, less targetted, this time, and then it depends on numbers and the trend. You can pretty much work it out from there.

I am expecting us to be in tier 3 as we get lumped as a NE region and there are a number of hot spots in the group. The numbers in Northumberland are not great still but we should probably be tier 2 rather than 3.

Anywhere with a university nearby is going to be in trouble so tier 2-3 here you come. The only places in tier 1 will be islands or remote tips of the country. I can't see any regular regions escaping 2 or 3 until mid December at the earliest. Just my reading of it.
		
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Pretty much how I read it. We will be grouped in as easy midlands or even just Lincolnshire but either one puts us in with some high level areas in North Lincolnshire and so I suspect that Tier 2 is coming. Where we are in South Kesteven is not too bad but enough Tier 3 regions bordering us to make us a concern. Not sure many places, if any, will escape being in Tier 2 at least.


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## fundy (Nov 24, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Pretty much how I read it. We will be grouped in as easy midlands or even just Lincolnshire but either one puts us in with some high level areas in North Lincolnshire and so I suspect that Tier 2 is coming. Where we are in South Kesteven is not too bad but enough Tier 3 regions bordering us to make us a concern. Not sure many places, if any, will escape being in Tier 2 at least.
		
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assume we'll be in tier 2 at best then, postpone that house hunting trip again lol


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## Billysboots (Nov 24, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I believe they are going to do it in regions, a bit more blunt, less targetted, this time, and then it depends on numbers and the trend. You can pretty much work it out from there.

I am expecting us to be in tier 3 as we get lumped as a NE region and there are a number of hot spots in the group. The numbers in Northumberland are not great still but we should probably be tier 2 rather than 3.

Anywhere with a university nearby is going to be in trouble so tier 2-3 here you come. The only places in tier 1 will be islands or remote tips of the country. I can't see any regular regions escaping 2 or 3 until mid December at the earliest. Just my reading of it.
		
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Totally agree.

If anyone thinks 2 December is going to be  a full lockdown relief then I think they’ll be disappointed. I’m already resigned to being in Tier 3 despite living in a rural area largely untouched by Covid. We were Tier 1 pre lockdown. Unfortunately, the nearby city has two universities and a large population which, from day one, has largely done as it pleased. We’re all about to pay the price.

My expectation is that I won’t be having a pint any time soon, and that when I can it will be with a meal only. And I can’t see that changing before March. These rules, I suspect, will be the last changes now until a vaccine program is almost complete and lockdowns are eased entirely.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Totally agree.

If anyone thinks 2 December is going to be  a full lockdown relief then I think they’ll be disappointed. I’m already resigned to being in Tier 3 despite living in a rural area largely untouched by Covid. We were Tier 1 pre lockdown. Unfortunately, the nearby city has two universities and a large population which, from day one, has largely done as it pleased. We’re all about to pay the price.

My expectation is that I won’t be having a pint any time soon, and that when I can it will be with a meal only. And I can’t see that changing before March. These rules, I suspect, will be the last changes now until a vaccine program is almost complete and lockdowns are eased entirely.
		
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I will be honest and say that is makes little difference to me whether I am Tier 1 or Tier 2, it is the meeting with a small group of people indoors that is the important bit to me. Everything else I can cope with.


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## upsidedown (Nov 24, 2020)

Also rural and expecting that Staffordshire will be Tier 3 so will golf with the good lady for a while


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## jim8flog (Nov 24, 2020)

Last month and Remembrance Day last month gave me a reminder of why we should endure the lockdowns

To give us the life style we endure now as well as a great many who gave their lives there are a great many who gave 6 + years of their life, many of whom  were also locked away in POW camps for several years.

There are probably quite a few survivors and do we not owe them the right to enjoy what is left of the rest of their lives.

A few weeks verses many years - hardly compares.


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Vaccine question @Ethan . Sooner or later another coronavirus is bound to emerge from somewhere (probably the same place as thisnone) . Although it will be a different virus to Covid will all the research and knowledge gained from this give us a decent headstart in producing another vaccine or will it be back to square one?
		
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Coronaviruses (and RNA viruses in general) don't have quite the same enthusiasm for mutation as DNA viruses, but mutation has happened already and will happen again. Some of the mutations may create mutants which are more infectious or more pathogenic, but some will be less of both too. As far as the human response goes, it is expected that people will have a degree of cross reactivity between (whether vaccine or infection-based) which will provide at least some response to the next version. So it is like your immune system won't specifically recognise the new mutation, but will intuitively know it is a wrong 'un and attack it anyway. This is what happens with flu. Most people don't get flu each season even though it is a "new" strain because of their innate immunity and cross reactivity from the catalogue of previous exposures built up over years. 

The other factor is how long vaccine immunity lasts. I think it may well last some years, but as we work through that time period, each time a new mutation is identified, the vaccine can be updated to cover it, so unvaccinated people (depending where the national programme is cut off) get complete coverage, and the booster will probably only be needed by a subset of the previously vaccinated population. We won't be back to square one. 

The Govt are working hard to say that the vaccines are not a magic bullet, mainly because they don't want people to get complacent now with the finish line in sight. But at the levels of efficacy announced, and effectiveness in older people, they really are a massive game changer. We just need to make sure we keep our noses clean until we actually get a good proportion of the population vaccinated.


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## Slime (Nov 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I've played golf for many years with a GP. *He had strong views on prolonging death and was in favour of assisted death. I agree with him.* We wouldn't let a dog suffer but argue that a human should...
I'm all for a bottle of pills and a damn good single malt.
		
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Me too and, as it happens, do the people of New Zealand.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-54728717

I just hope that *we *see the light pretty soon.


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## Backache (Nov 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Coronaviruses (and RNA viruses in general) don't have quite the same enthusiasm for mutation as DNA viruses, but mutation has happened already and will happen again.
		
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RNA viruses have a higher mutation rate than DNA viruses, though coronaviruses have better proof reading than many other RNA viruses including flu so their mutation rate is lower.

There have been numerous mutations so far though few are thought to significantly affect the Spike protein which is the primary target for immune recognition in most of the vaccines


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not Ethan, but I think the answer to that has to be yes, given the Oxford Uni vaccine itself is a result of years of research, fine tuned for COVID-19.

Anyone who thinks this vaccine has been developed from scratch in eight months is rather misunderstanding the process I suspect.
		
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Yes how nice would it be if countries actually cooperated on other matters like this in the future.


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## GB72 (Nov 24, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Also rural and expecting that Staffordshire will be Tier 3 so will golf with the good lady for a while
		
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looking at comments from our local health chief, we could even end up Tier 3. He thinks that we will be treated as Lincolnshire as a whole rather than North Lincs, South Lincs etc. That means that we will be grouped in with places like Boston with some of the highest rates per 100000.


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not Ethan, but I think the answer to that has to be yes, given the Oxford Uni vaccine itself is a result of years of research, fine tuned for COVID-19.

Anyone who thinks this vaccine has been developed from scratch in eight months is rather misunderstanding the process I suspect.
		
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There is a BBC Podcast running at the moment called "How to vaccinate the world", hosted by Tim Harford, who does the stats show More or Less. The most recent episode had an expert virologist who said that in the event of a mutation in the spike protein, it will take about 2 weeks to update the genetic code used in either the mRNA or the Oxford vaccines. 

Podcast link


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2020)

Backache said:



			RNA viruses have a higher mutation rate than DNA viruses, though coronaviruses have better proof reading than many other RNA viruses including flu so their mutation rate is lower.

There have been numerous mutations so far though few are thought to significantly affect the Spike protein which is the primary target for immune recognition in most of the vaccines
		
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Thanks for the clarification.


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## road2ruin (Nov 24, 2020)

So it appears the Christmas 'break' will be over the 23rd - 27th December with up to 3 households being able to meet indoors.


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## Imurg (Nov 24, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			So it appears the Christmas 'break' will be over the 23rd - 27th December with up to 3 households being able to meet indoors.
		
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In my opinion if ever there was an apt phrase its "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In my opinion if ever there was an apt phrase its "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
		
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This^^^
Genuinely hope everyone has the Christmas they want this year, personally it’ll be the quietest of Christmas for us at home and roll on 2021.


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## BiMGuy (Nov 24, 2020)

They might as well just make it a free for all. The sensible people will be just that. The morons will behave however they want regardless of any rules anyway. 

Come mid Jan we'll all be in tier 3 or worse. Just so people aren't grown up enough to accept that much like the rest of the year, Christmas isn't going to be their version of normal this year. 

I liked the idea of a lockdown Christmas. It meant we didn't have the hassle of visiting anyone.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2020)

I understand that if you have relatives or visitors drop in unexpectedly, the police have the power to come round and force them to go home.

Is there a website where you can register for this service, and is it free or do you have to pay?


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## Billysboots (Nov 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I understand that if you have relatives or visitors drop in unexpectedly, the police have the power to come round and force them to go home.

Is there a website where you can register for this service, and is it free or do you have to pay?
		
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In-law avoidance tactic?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I understand that if you have relatives or visitors drop in unexpectedly, the police have the power to come round and force them to go home.

Is there a website where you can register for this service, and is it free or do you have to pay?
		
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Only a £10.00 surcharge if you want a Dog Unit as well.


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## Billysboots (Nov 24, 2020)

We’ll be going to my mum’s - she’s on her own and in our bubble. But that will be the only socialising we do.

My sister in law, on the other hand, is planning a big family get together. She wants to enjoy her Christmas after a tough year at work. As an NHS nurse. Some of it spent on a Covid ward.

When the great man upstairs dished out brains and common sense, my sister in law was clearly an oversight.

😳


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 24, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In my opinion if ever there was an apt phrase its "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
		
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I have no doubt that someone (or more than one) will meet up over Xmas and pass on the virus to a high risk relative who will then die from the disease. And no doubt by the middle/end of January we will then have to suffer that person (or people) being given air time by the media while they blame the government/politicians in general for allowing it to happen.

I've already emailed my extended family and told them to count us out of any bubble arrangements for Xmas. We'll probably meet my parents for a walk on the beach somewhere either before or after Xmas Day but it will just be us and the kids indoors for that whole period.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			In-law avoidance tactic?
		
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Couldn't possibly comment...


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			We’ll be going to my mum’s - she’s on her own and in our bubble. But that will be the only socialising we do.

My sister in law, on the other hand, is planning a big family get together. She wants to enjoy her Christmas after a tough year at work. As an NHS nurse. Some of it spent on a Covid ward.

*When the great man upstairs dished out brains and common sense, my sister in law was clearly an oversight.*

😳
		
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We could be related by marriage...


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Only a £10.00 surcharge if you want a Dog Unit as well.

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Ouch! That takes a bite out of your wallet.

We had arranged for 9 people, inc ourselves, to have Christmas Day lunch together. Unfortunately the regs for here have just been published. Max of 6. As its an arranged gathering, possible €10,000 fine.


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## Billysboots (Nov 24, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			We could be related by marriage... 

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Walter? Is it really you?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Ouch! That takes a bite out of your wallet.

We had arranged for 9 people, inc ourselves, to have Christmas Day lunch together. Unfortunately the regs for here have just been published. Max of 6. As its an arranged gathering, possible €10,000 fine.
		
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Good luck choosing which 3 to bin.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 24, 2020)

Not going to be visiting anyone. The most I will do will be to go to the club and play golf on Boxing Day


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just been through this with the mother-in-law, initial diagnosis was breast Cancer back in 2003, went through a mastectomy and hormone treatment and got through the initial 5 years, sadly in 2017 it returned as metastatic breast cancer widespread in her bones and after discussion she said she wouldn’t have chemo, still we got a diagnosis of 3-5yrs.

Sadly she passed away on sunday just short of 4 years since it returned.

Extremely brave lady, but I must say the last 2 weeks were the worst, watching her, knowing she was dying just lying there slowly drifting away, it was beyond cruel! I find it a complete mind blow that we can put a cat or dog out of their misery, but a human we have to stand back and let time take it’s course.

Don’t get me wrong the staff in the Hospice were beyond reproach, but how they can go through that time and time again with patients and their familes tells me how special some of our NHS Staff are, and thank god we have them.
		
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Sorry to hear that I remember the agony of my Dad's lung cancer.

My Daughter in law has just been diagnosed with stage three breast cancer and some spread to the  nymph lodes, she's only 43 so we are all hoping for the best outcome possible.  What a year.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry to hear that I remember the agony of my Dad's lung cancer.

My Daughter in law has just been diagnosed with stage three breast cancer and some spread to the  nymph lodes, she's only 43 so we are all hoping for the best outcome possible.  What a year.
		
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So sorry to hear that, fingers crossed for your daughter in law and the best possible outcome as you say.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry to hear that I remember the agony of my Dad's lung cancer.

My Daughter in law has just been diagnosed with stage three breast cancer and some spread to the  nymph lodes, she's only 43 so we are all hoping for the best outcome possible.  What a year.
		
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Sorry to hear that. Hopefully her treatment will be a success and she'll come through this.


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## Crazyface (Nov 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			We’ll be going to my mum’s - she’s on her own and in our bubble. But that will be the only socialising we do.

My sister in law, on the other hand, is planning a big family get together. She wants to enjoy her Christmas after a tough year at work. As an NHS nurse. Some of it spent on a Covid ward.

When the great man upstairs dished out brains and common sense, my sister in law was clearly an oversight.

😳
		
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You've got to wonder why she's up for a big gathering even when she's worked on a Covid ward. Not against it myself but why would a NURSE be for it? And why is the North got the highest Covid. Why the hell isn't LOndon riddled with it? I don't believe any of the Gov stats. It's all lies. I've lived in High Wycombe, and a higher closely populated town you couldn't live in. Why is this place not RIGHT UP THERE???????? Lies !!!! And how are people catching it when we've all been told how to avoid it? Hands Face Space? Eh ? Simple init? The supermarket wher eI work is RAMMED Thursday, Friday, Saturday. I'm weaving in and out of tightly spaced isles full of COUPLES !!!!! AND FAMILIES !!!!! shopping together, IDIOTS!!!! and yet.....I've still not had it. Mask on, use sanitizer etc etc.


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## IanM (Nov 24, 2020)

Lost a buddy this week,  51 years old.  Cancer.  Couldn’t go and visit due to lockdowns.  No proper funeral either.  Very sad


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## GB72 (Nov 25, 2020)

Early stories suggest we are pretty much all heading for tiers 2 and 3 with some suggesting that nowhere will be tier 1 to start with. Guess we are pretty much still going to be in lockdown


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2020)

We have decided to bypass our normal Christmas day meal.
We have made far too many sacrifices to risk everything for a day/meal with my loved ones just a few weeks short of a vaccine being in place.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We have decided to bypass our normal Christmas day meal.
We have made far too many sacrifices to risk everything for a day/meal with my loved ones just a few weeks short of a vaccine being in place.
		
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Couldn't agree more. 

After all that has gone before it seems nothing short of ridiculous to, at this stage, increase  risk of another spike at a time of the year when NHS resources are usually stretched. 

Would love nothing more than to see and hug our 6 and 8 year old grandsons as well as our son and his wife but is it really worth the risk?

Our other son and his family lives in Qatar so that decision is made for us. They won't be coming back  this Christmas as he cannot afford the time  needed for quarantine when they ultimately return to Qatar. 

Truly will be a quiet celebration.


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## Beezerk (Nov 25, 2020)

Same with us, we usually make a yearly xmas trip down to Malvern to be with the wives elderly parents for a few days, we are going to ditch it this year and stay home.
Kind of glad really as it's usually a very boring few days for me and I didn't put up much of a fight when she suggested we shouldn't go 😁


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## pauljames87 (Nov 25, 2020)

The announcement was welcomed by my wife who hasn't been work since march due to pregnancy and maternity

We have support bubble and childcare bubble anyways so going to stick to them .. that counts as 1 extra so as support is included . Spare if we decide one more

Way we see it is support and childcare are around the kids a lot anyways. But got to think safely


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## User62651 (Nov 25, 2020)

wondering if the xmas window has been put in place primarily as an economic stimulus and a national move to try and cheer people up, if people think they're having a regular christmas with the extended family they'll go and spend more in the shops, keep some retail going?
Certainly isn't for any physical health reasons, everyone stuck indoors in close proximity, dangerous move.
Mental health wise it could be beneficial for some I suppose.

Think they should have just gone with the regularly assessed tiers over xmas, what heppens if there's a spike ahead of christmas, do they then cancel the 5 day hiatus?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			wondering if the xmas window has been put in place primarily as an economic stimulus and a national move to try and cheer people up, if people think they're having a regular christmas with the extended family they'll go and spend more in the shops, keep some retail going?
Certainly isn't for any physical health reasons, everyone stuck indoors in close proximity, dangerous move.
Mental health wise it could be beneficial for some I suppose.

Think they should have just gone with the regularly assessed tiers over xmas, what heppens if there's a spike ahead of christmas, do they then cancel the 5 day hiatus?
		
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I doubt it

They have done it to help the police as they know a lot of people are going to break it. No man power to enforce


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## Tashyboy (Nov 25, 2020)

Christamas day will be quiet, me, Missis T and lad. May well call over to see daughter and grandkids who are in our bubble but that’s it.
Theres been a frosty discussion re where in laws will be on Xmas day. It will deffo not be ours. Grandkids mum and partner are bobbies, so is dad. Son is a class one driver. Grandkids are both at primary. so there’s a chance of catching Covid in that lot. In laws are not in our bubble. Because of afore mentioned reasons. Yet it’s kind of ok ( from members of her family ) to put them in our bubble for the sake of turkey and sprouts. It just ain’t happening. Ave not spent the last 8 months to chuck it down the drain for a few slack days.
Theres other reasons, but rather than go down the route of having a rant al leave it at that.


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			wondering if the xmas window has been put in place primarily as an economic stimulus and a national move to try and cheer people up, if people think they're having a regular christmas with the extended family they'll go and spend more in the shops, keep some retail going?
Certainly isn't for any physical health reasons, everyone stuck indoors in close proximity, dangerous move.
Mental health wise it could be beneficial for some I suppose.

Think they should have just gone with the regularly assessed tiers over xmas, what heppens if there's a spike ahead of christmas, do they then cancel the 5 day hiatus?
		
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And for a certain public figure to avoid the PR disaster of being The Grinch.


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## GB72 (Nov 25, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			wondering if the xmas window has been put in place primarily as an economic stimulus and a national move to try and cheer people up, if people think they're having a regular christmas with the extended family they'll go and spend more in the shops, keep some retail going?
Certainly isn't for any physical health reasons, everyone stuck indoors in close proximity, dangerous move.
Mental health wise it could be beneficial for some I suppose.

Think they should have just gone with the regularly assessed tiers over xmas, what heppens if there's a spike ahead of christmas, do they then cancel the 5 day hiatus?
		
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I somewhat suspect that the Xmas position was agreed early and announced quickly to soften the blow of most of England being in Tiers where no household can meet for the period up to Xmas.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 25, 2020)

Ironically it is some of the media outlets that seemed to be pushing hardest for the restrictions to be eased so people could "give Granny a hug at Christmas" are now criticising the Government for taking the risk.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 25, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Ironically it is some of the media outlets that seemed to be pushing hardest for the restrictions to be eased so people could "give Granny a hug at Christmas" are now criticising the Government for taking the risk.
		
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Funny that. Good old gutter press, any excuse for a dig...


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## pauljames87 (Nov 25, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I somewhat suspect that the Xmas position was agreed early and announced quickly to soften the blow of most of England being in Tiers where no household can meet for the period up to Xmas.
		
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Id doubt very much any of the country will be on tier 1 come next week


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## GB72 (Nov 25, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Id doubt very much any of the country will be on tier 1 come next week
		
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Agree, I am expecting tier 2 and 3 across the board. At a push, there may be 1 or 2 regions of Tier 1 to show that it is achievable and give a bit of hope to those in higher tiers.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 25, 2020)

Scottish Health guy just said 
'The best protection against covid this Christmas is your front door'
Wise words.

Scottish press pushing the totally stupid level of questioning today.
They bypassed really stupid months ago.


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## IanM (Nov 25, 2020)

Hit the working from home "wall" today but it's probably the "had enough of working" wall in reality.  I've sent in an email asking to drop to 3 days a week from 1st January.  If the extra time off doesn't make me enjoy it more, I will pack it all in at the end of March.

Was 57 last week... that's enough working, Covid or not!!


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## IanM (Nov 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Health guy just said

'The best protection against covid this Christmas is your front door'
Wise words.
		
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What price some drunken numpty seen staggering round George Square next month with a door under his arm??


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2020)

IanM said:



			Hit the working from home "wall" today but it's probably the "had enough of working" wall in reality.  I've sent in an email asking to drop to 3 days a week from 1st January.  If the extra time off doesn't make me enjoy it more, I will pack it all in at the end of March.

Was 57 last week... that's enough working, Covid or not!!
		
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I tried that and found I was expected to do the same amount of work in half the time.


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## IanM (Nov 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I tried that and found I was expected to do the same amount of work in half the time.
		
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Spookily, that was the reply I got.  "Just do longer days" apparently....     No matter, I am a contractor with 30 days notice either way.  I've started teeing up one of the lads to take over... and already building handover notes.   Golf to be played!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 25, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Agree, I am expecting tier 2 and 3 across the board. At a push, there may be 1 or 2 regions of Tier 1 to show that it is achievable and give a bit of hope to those in higher tiers.
		
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Can't see anywhere being tier 1 and so as tier 2 means alcohol only with a substantial meal I can't see the clubhouse being overly busy as I'm not too many will want to stop and eat after a round. Another blow for takings for clubs especially those struggling


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## Old Skier (Nov 25, 2020)

Our pies are substantial- does that count


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 26, 2020)

Some cheery news for you, in less than a month daylight will be getting longer.


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## IanM (Nov 26, 2020)

Our clubhouse was pretty full on Saturday lunchtime, most folk who played stopped to eat... word went round about supporting the Steward and His missus who have had a tough year.... a big percentage of our members are retired or reasonably solvent, so have missed the worst of the financial impact


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Our clubhouse was pretty full on Saturday lunchtime, most folk who played stopped to eat... word went round about supporting the Steward and His missus who have had a tough year.... a big percentage of our members are retired or reasonably solvent, so have missed the worst of the financial impact
		
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That is an impressive post. Your members must have a good bond with the club as well as with the Steward.


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## GB72 (Nov 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Our clubhouse was pretty full on Saturday lunchtime, most folk who played stopped to eat... word went round about supporting the Steward and His missus who have had a tough year.... a big percentage of our members are retired or reasonably solvent, so have missed the worst of the financial impact
		
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This is similar to our village ordering takeaway food from the pub. Most people order at least once a week as we want a pub and really like our landlord and landlady and so we have to support it through these times.


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## IanM (Nov 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is an impressive post. Your members must have a good bond with the club as well as with the Steward.
		
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GB72 said:



			This is similar to our village ordering takeaway food from the pub. Most people order at least once a week as we want a pub and really like our landlord and landlady and so we have to support it through these times.
		
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Use it or lose it.....  same with our village pub!


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## Kellfire (Nov 26, 2020)

Being bottom left is worst case and being top right is best case.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Use it or lose it.....  same with our village pub!
		
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True but equally the members, in @GB72  case the villagers, feel it is worth saving. That is not always the case and has to be earned.


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## DRW (Nov 26, 2020)

Full list of local restriction tiers by area - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Find out the coronavirus restrictions in your local area - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Tier 2 or 3 for almost everyone.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 26, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is similar to our village ordering takeaway food from the pub. Most people order at least once a week as we want a pub and really like our landlord and landlady and so we have to support it through these times.
		
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Our caterer has been doing fruit and veg boxes and meat & fish via his suppliers, and also prepared meals that you can cook or reheat at home.  He's also started doing a chip shop style takeaway on Wednesdays (we usually do a 9 hole comp & fish & chip supper throughout the summer) and he's also put out a Christmas list, so it's a fresh rolled Turkey for us this year.  I believe the members have supported them well, we've certainly done our bit.


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## AdamW (Nov 26, 2020)

In tier 3 are 1 to 1 golf lessons not allowed? I do not think they are but just hanging onto a bit of hope


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## GB72 (Nov 26, 2020)

Really down now. Tier 3 due to places like Boston and Skegness being in the County despite very little instance in the rural parts of the county. Actually feeling really down about this. What small scale Birthday plans have been cancelled are looking at a realistic prospect of not being able to socialise for another 3 months. Can really understand why people break the rules now as the decision seems arbitrary and unfair and I honestly am not sure that I can spend that long over winter in social isolation.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 26, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Really down now. Tier 3 due to places like Boston and Skegness being in the County despite very little instance in the rural parts of the county. Actually feeling really down about this. What small scale Birthday plans have been cancelled are looking at a realistic prospect of not being able to socialise for another 3 months. Can really understand why people break the rules now as the decision seems arbitrary and unfair and I honestly am not sure that I can spend that long over winter in social isolation.
		
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We were in tier 1 when lockdown started. Since then cases have come down and yet we'll come out of lockdown into the revised and stricter tier 2. It sometimes feels as though they're making it up as they go along.


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2020)

I dont know the fact

Well there seems to be some irregularities in the way the AZ/Oxford vaccine's results have been published.. For the sake of humanity, i hope this is sorted out soon

*After admitting mistake, AstraZeneca faces difficult questions*
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...accine-study-results/articleshow/79419695.cms


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2020)

Kellfire said:



View attachment 33726

Being bottom left is worst case and being top right is best case.
		
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The labels (save lives/sacrifice lives) does not necessarily reflect the underlying philosophy. Some of those countries got to where they are through incompetence or unpreparedness rather than design, but the overall message is that economic loss and deaths are roughly correlated. This goes to one of the false dichotomies raised in this pandemic, that it is one or the other. It really isn't. Countries that do not address the health challenge won't win the economic battle either. Also, that data is end Q2/2000. Update it for now and the picture may change.


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I dont know the fact

Well there seems to be some irregularities in the way the AZ/Oxford vaccine's results have been published.. For the sake of humanity, i hope this is sorted out soon

*After admitting mistake, AstraZeneca faces difficult questions*
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...accine-study-results/articleshow/79419695.cms

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I have just come off a videoconference with John Bell, Regius Prof of Medicine at Oxford, and a major player involved with the vaccine programme spoke about this. He said the MHRA know all about it and are unconcerned, and he believes approval will soon follow. There should be a scientific publication in the next week or so which will deal with the scientific questions.


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2020)

Kellfire said:



View attachment 33726

Being bottom left is worst case and being top right is best case.
		
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I was following this graph till the point someone drew the green and red lines.. not sure i understand what the implication is...   A

1) Also are we saying China has 0 Covid deaths a and <10% decline in GDP?   While they have bounced back, i cant see how the death rate is so low...


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I was following this graph till the point someone drew the green and red lines.. not sure i understand what the implication is...   A

1) Also are we saying China has 0 Covid deaths a and <10% decline in GDP?   While they have bounced back, i cant see how the death rate is so low...
		
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China death rates are low partly because there is such a massive population across a large area. Some areas have not been too badly involved but others have got hammered, but then put into an overall one country number, looks low. It is also fair to say that when issues arose, the local authorities there clamp down in a way that would make Brits rather unhappy.


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## aaajjj7589 (Nov 26, 2020)

So you can play Golf in Tier 3 is how I interpret it?


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## GB72 (Nov 26, 2020)

aaajjj7589 said:



			So you can play Golf in Tier 3 is how I interpret it?
		
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This is where I am a bit confused. You can play golf in Tier 3 but can you travel outside of your area to play golf. My mum plays at greetham valley and that is in Tier 2 Rutland. A massive percentage of their members, however, are in Lincolnshire and Leicestershire, which are both Tier 3. By the way I read it, only the Tier 2 resident members can use the club.


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## DRW (Nov 26, 2020)

GB72 said:



			This is where I am a bit confused. You can play golf in Tier 3 but can you travel outside of your area to play golf. My mum plays at greetham valley and that is in Tier 2 Rutland. A massive percentage of their members, however, are in Lincolnshire and Leicestershire, which are both Tier 3. By the way I read it, only the Tier 2 resident members can use the club.
		
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That's how I have read it as well, I'm in tier 2 but the golf club is tier 3. I am not allowed to travel to the golf club and play, as I am not meant to travel to tier 3(per the covid winter plan detail documents) unless its not work, education, medical, youth services, elite sport or caring.

Hopefully I'm wrong tho.


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## fundy (Nov 26, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Really down now. Tier 3 due to places like Boston and Skegness being in the County despite very little instance in the rural parts of the county. Actually feeling really down about this. What small scale Birthday plans have been cancelled are looking at a realistic prospect of not being able to socialise for another 3 months. Can really understand why people break the rules now as the decision seems arbitrary and unfair and I honestly am not sure that I can spend that long over winter in social isolation.
		
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sorry to hear Greg, small crumb of comfort is it is being reviewed each fortnight, so hopefully wont be as long as he 3 mths worst case!


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## 4LEX (Nov 26, 2020)

Good to see much tougher tier levels today.  A large element have proved if you give them too much rope they'll hang themselves and can't be trusted to be sensible in lower tiers. It will hopefully stop the rate of infection climbing like before and give areas incentives to improve rapidly. Unfortunately some places will be placed under tough measures due to bad geographical luck but you can't have local tiers for every single town or village in the country.

Look at Manchester and Liverpool. One did the sensible thing, acted and have done amazingly well and are in tier 2. Manchester with Burnham playing politics, behaving in a irresponsible way are in tier 3 and will likely stay there for a few more weeks, if not longer. His actions will hurt the local businesses he tried to say he was protecting.


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## Imurg (Nov 26, 2020)

Well, one question answered...ill  e able to play golf.
2nd question..can I go back to work.?
Apparently some negotiations are happening


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## fundy (Nov 26, 2020)

Have had a cough and headaches the last few days here  was due to the docs for a routine jab yesterday, phoned in advance to check and was ordered not to go but to have a test instead  dont think/hope its not but now waiting for the test in the post to find out


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## DanFST (Nov 26, 2020)

I was at the Belfry before this lockdown. In tier 1. 

A month of Lockdown later, it's at tier 3!? Poor people.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 26, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I was at the Belfry before this lockdown. In tier 1. 

A month of Lockdown later, it's at tier 3!? Poor people.
		
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Same for me, no logic. Again.  Not that it affects me, just affects businesses and lowly paid people on furlough who will be short on money for the Christmas PR stunt.


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## GB72 (Nov 26, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Good to see much tougher tier levels today.  A large element have proved if you give them too much rope they'll hang themselves and can't be trusted to be sensible in lower tiers. It will hopefully stop the rate of infection climbing like before and give areas incentives to improve rapidly. Unfortunately some places will be placed under tough measures due to bad geographical luck but you can't have local tiers for every single town or village in the country.

Look at Manchester and Liverpool. One did the sensible thing, acted and have done amazingly well and are in tier 2. Manchester with Burnham playing politics, behaving in a irresponsible way are in tier 3 and will likely stay there for a few more weeks, if not longer. His actions will hurt the local businesses he tried to say he was protecting.
		
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True but you can base it on local authorities. South Kesteven has been the 'Liverpool' in your example and have behaved and kept our numbers down but we have been penalised based on the more Urban areas in the North and East of Lincolnshire.


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## DanFST (Nov 26, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Same for me, no logic. Again.  Not that it affects me, just affects businesses and lowly paid people on furlough who will be short on money for the Christmas PR stunt.
		
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West Suffolk is the lowest in the country, Matt Hancock is the MP. Tier 2. 


It seems everyone complained that it was too confusing. Now they are going to complain it's unfair. Proper decision makers would have stuck to their guns, knowing that the decision they made first was right.... (not political, just in general)


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## Billysboots (Nov 26, 2020)

We’re just one of many households in an area which started life in Tier 1, by-passed 2 entirely and have landed in Tier 3 today.

Whilst tough to take, especially living in a rural community, I’m afraid I get it, and the need for tougher restrictions. I’m holding on to my belief that, notwithstanding fortnightly reviews of which Tier we are all in, this system is designed solely to keep a lid on Covid over winter until a vaccine is rolled out.

I’m no defender of politicians, but however they did this they were going to upset huge numbers. And I do believe, if the numbers head in the right direction, many will move from 3 to 2.

The big problem now, however, is that this now appears to be arranged by county rather than districts. I have family in Leicestershire and the city has never been out of some form of lockdown. Much of the south of the county has been largely untouched until recently. My worry for them is that, even in the event their rates fall again, what is going on in the city will keep them in 3 until March. That hardly seems fair.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2020)

My understanding is that in Tier 1 and Tier 2 areas indoor venues will be able to put on live events up to 50% capacity or 1000 whichever is lowest.  Think there may be something to do with alcohol not being served but not sure. 

Well - that's a good flicker in the gloom for us...though not sure how many venues will find live events being viable at 50% capacity and without alcohol sales...the latter being critical...

But hey.  I spot a little light and hope at the end of a very long and dark tunnel.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 26, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The big problem now, however, is that this now appears to be arranged by county rather than districts. I have family in Leicestershire and the city has never been out of some form of lockdown. Much of the south of the county has been largely untouched until recently. My worry for them is that, even in the event their rates fall again, what is going on in the city will keep them in 3 until March. That hardly seems fair.
		
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Tell me about it!

Our area has the lowest rate per 100k in the county, 40% lower than the highest but we are lumped in with the whole county.

From 2 December the only improvement I can see is that I can, at least, go for a game of golf. 

This despite being assured that lockdown would not extend beyond that date.


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## aaajjj7589 (Nov 26, 2020)

Golf is fine to play across all Tiers. I'll be playing as much as I can (I live in Kent) - I just hope my Toptracer Range is open as it's great to get the Data from your session.


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## Billysboots (Nov 26, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Tell me about it!

Our area has the lowest rate per 100k in the county, 40% lower than the highest but we are lumped in with the whole county.

From 2 December the only improvement I can see is that I can, at least, go for a game of golf.
*
This despite being assured that lockdown would not extend beyond that date.*

Click to expand...

All smoke and mirrors. This won’t be lockdown. It will be a tiered approach. That will be the response. 🙄


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2020)

At the risk of getting a political infraction...  
I find the whole thing a bit farce... Boris & his party could not risk a second lockdown, so some smart people came up with at Tier system. Scotland said if you have 3 then i will have 5.  Then Wales/Scots went into second lockdown and it forced the English hand. Now we will come out of lockdown and go into another one (but it is called Tier).   Meanwhile those who are breaking the law are still breaking it.    The reality seems to be that other than the first lockdown, we never really did a proper lockdown.  When we did it, we were very successful.  otherwise it feels like moving deck chairs, blaming others, lying, profiteering etc.. This is not saying any party is good/bad, just an observation

i am mentally exhausted trying to follow what is happening. i have stopped reading/listening to the news, i look at the headlines and thats it.  I only look at the vaccine stories, american election circus,  black friday, stock markets (what a boom)..   sorry for the rant, better out than in..  need to get some optimism going


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## anotherdouble (Nov 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Well, one question answered...ill  e able to play golf.
2nd question..can I go back to work.?
Apparently some negotiations are happening 

Click to expand...

You 2 or 3 buddy


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## Imurg (Nov 26, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			You 2 or 3 buddy
		
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2 but what that means workwise I've no idea....
Probably find out Tuesday
Guess you're 2 as well?


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## anotherdouble (Nov 26, 2020)

Imurg said:



			2 but what that means workwise I've no idea....
Probably find out Tuesday
Guess you're 2 as well?
		
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Yes mate. Usual guff that “we will confirm in due course what the tier system will mean.  Please bear with us” 🤣🤣🤣


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I have just come off a videoconference with John Bell, Regius Prof of Medicine at Oxford, and a major player involved with the vaccine programme spoke about this. He said the MHRA know all about it and are unconcerned, and he believes approval will soon follow. There should be a scientific publication in the next week or so which will deal with the scientific questions.
		
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And Mene Pangalos, head of R&D at Astra Zeneca said the same. If the EMA and MHRA are happy to approve, I am happy to take.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 26, 2020)

fundy said:



			Have had a cough and headaches the last few days here  was due to the docs for a routine jab yesterday, phoned in advance to check and was ordered not to go but to have a test instead  dont think/hope its not but now waiting for the test in the post to find out
		
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Good luck. We were sure David didn't have it and shocked when he tested positive.


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			And Mene Pangalos, head of R&D at Astra Zeneca said the same. If the EMA and MHRA are happy to approve, I am happy to take.
		
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and then you have a different view .. (again no idea how genuine this is ).. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/f...for-vaccines-the-pandemic-is-effectively-over


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## Beedee (Nov 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			and then you have a different view .. (again no idea how genuine this is ).. <URL not shared again>
		
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Given the site starts with a banner stating that their youtube channel has been suspended for spreading “medical misinformation” ...


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## Kellfire (Nov 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			and then you have a different view .. (again no idea how genuine this is ).. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/f...for-vaccines-the-pandemic-is-effectively-over

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This guy Yeadon is a well known Covid conspiracy nut on twitter. Covidiots routinely retweet his nonsense.


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## bobmac (Nov 26, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			This guy Yeadon is a well known Covid conspiracy nut on twitter. Covidiots routinely retweet his nonsense.
		
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Not only is it nonsense, it's giving some people the excuse to party and probably not take the vaccine


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			and then you have a different view .. (again no idea how genuine this is ).. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/f...for-vaccines-the-pandemic-is-effectively-over

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Yeadon provides no evidence for his ideas, which have been widely dismissed by serious professional scientists. It is all supposition and guesswork. If he provides solid evidence, people will listen, but until then, he is an outlier. Gupta floated something similar, and she too was unable to provide any evidence.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My understanding is that in Tier 1 and Tier 2 areas indoor venues will be able to put on live events up to 50% capacity or 1000 whichever is lowest.  *Think there may be something to do with alcohol not being served but not sure*.

Well - that's a good flicker in the gloom for us...though not sure how many venues will find live events being viable at 50% capacity and without alcohol sales...the latter being critical...

But hey.  I spot a little light and hope at the end of a very long and dark tunnel.
		
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The alcohol thing in tiers 1 & 2 is that it must be table service (and in tier 2, only with a meal). So whilst its not actually banned at indoor events, for most venues its not a practical proposition.


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## Mudball (Nov 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Yeadon provides no evidence for his ideas, which have been widely dismissed by serious professional scientists. It is all supposition and guesswork. If he provides solid evidence, people will listen, but until then, he is an outlier. Gupta floated something similar, and she too was unable to provide any evidence.
		
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i have not come across him, since i dont do deniers..  i responded to my friend who sent it to me..  and he came back with this.. 

"I heard a lengthy podcast interview of this guy on the delingpole show a few weeks ago. While the forum itself is usually looney, this guy's arguments had 2 important  queries...he questioned the assumption  of the baseline immune number being  0 and the absence of type 2 error metrics (false +ves) being published as official numbers.  I checked a bit and found it hard to refute either. ( not saying that that makes him right ...only that I couldn't find counters to it even after much searching ). Also his credentials are quite relevant and he speaks very clearly ...not a redneck rant type dude....he certainly  is not a covid denier...so I guess I am still unclear on whether to write him off or not (especially  with 2nd n 3rd waves in the UK )"


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			i have not come across him, since i dont do deniers..  i responded to my friend who sent it to me..  and he came back with this..

"I heard a lengthy podcast interview of this guy on the delingpole show a few weeks ago. While the forum itself is usually looney, this guy's arguments had 2 important  queries...he questioned the assumption  of the baseline immune number being  0 and the absence of type 2 error metrics (false +ves) being published as official numbers.  I checked a bit and found it hard to refute either. ( not saying that that makes him right ...only that I couldn't find counters to it even after much searching ). Also his credentials are quite relevant and he speaks very clearly ...not a redneck rant type dude....he certainly  is not a covid denier...so I guess I am still unclear on whether to write him off or not (especially  with 2nd n 3rd waves in the UK )"
		
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His credentials are not all that relevant. He is not an epidemiologist, a virologist or an immunologist. He has science degrees and a PhD in pharmacology (how drugs work in the body).

It is fine to have theories such as his, but not fine to expect Govt policy to be based on a hunch and some assumptions. If community testing showed that a lot more people had immunity than previously suspected, or were otherwise non-susceptible, great, we are nearer the end of this God-foresaken thing, but there is no such evidence and therefore his self-admitted anger is just undermining efforts to fight this virus and risks making matters worse.


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## Backache (Nov 26, 2020)

Mudball said:



			i have not come across him, since i dont do deniers..  i responded to my friend who sent it to me..  and he came back with this..

"I heard a lengthy podcast interview of this guy on the delingpole show a few weeks ago. While the forum itself is usually looney, this guy's arguments had 2 important  queries...he questioned the assumption  of the baseline immune number being  0 and the absence of type 2 error metrics (false +ves) being published as official numbers.  I checked a bit and found it hard to refute either. ( not saying that that makes him right ...only that I couldn't find counters to it even after much searching ). Also his credentials are quite relevant and he speaks very clearly ...not a redneck rant type dude....he certainly  is not a covid denier...so I guess I am still unclear on whether to write him off or not (especially  with 2nd n 3rd waves in the UK )"
		
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He is one of these people who have a background in Science but is speaking outside his area of expertise. His arguments sound superficially plausible until they are examined .
As far as I can tell he has no background in diagnostics infectious diseases or epidemiology.
As far as the possibility of false positives are concerned the absolute number cannot be known because there is not another gold standard to test by. 
The Pillar one testing has to have a false positive rate of less than 0.04% as these are the labs that did the ONS surveys that had positive rates of 0.04% in the summer. The Pillar 2 may be a little higher, it also slightly depends on what you call a false positive. If the presence of viral RNA that may indicate recent infection but is not currently infectious is considered false the false positive rate may be a little higher but these cases may be important for contact tracing.. A cycle threshold of under 30-35 is considered diagnostic of infectious disease in most labs below  this, it may indicate viral RNA that is not currently infectious but this is not certain.
He has I believe also cast doubt on the use of antibody studies to indicate previous infection. This has been studied quite a lot and most longitudinal studies indicate a high level though not 100% seroconversion (which would hold true for most viruses) and is well understood by epidemiologists studying the spread.
AS far as background immunity not being 0 I take it he means there may be some resistance within the population. There has been research done which indicates there is some resistance to coronaviruses from infection by previous coronaviruses, whenever I have heard any speakers on this subject including Shane Crotty who was one of the first to identify it they believe it is probable that this is part of the heterogeneity of the clinical course rather than reflecting immunity to infection and would not contribute to herd immunity or imply that we are nearly through the epidemic.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2020)

Ethan said:



			China death rates are low partly because there is such a massive population across a large area. Some areas have not been too badly involved but others have got hammered, but then put into an overall one country number, looks low. It is also fair to say that when issues arose, the local authorities there clamp down in a way that would make Brits rather unhappy.
		
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My Nephew is an English Teacher in China. During lockdown he was allowed to go outside for an hour every day at an allocated time.


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 26, 2020)

Just confirmed with the in-laws that we are creating a Christmas Bauble with just them and no third household.


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## Hobbit (Nov 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			My Nephew is an English Teacher in China. During lockdown he was allowed to go outside for an hour every day at an allocated time.
		
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Spain did the same thing towards the end of the first lockdown. There was also a 1km distance from home limit.


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## Old Skier (Nov 26, 2020)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2020)

snap! With MiL and BiL.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			The alcohol thing in tiers 1 & 2 is that it must be table service (and in tier 2, only with a meal). So whilst its not actually banned at indoor events, for most venues its not a practical proposition.
		
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Ah - that'll be it.  Live music events with no booze!? Well I suppose so...no reason why not.  Issue for the venues is that it is their margin on liquid refreshments that makes the events viable.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 26, 2020)

Tough times ahead. Hospital filling up with more Covid, including ICU. We've a lot of "normal" ICU patients but also a big influx of Covid and we're close to implementing escalation procedures


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2020)

We are in Tier two although the infection rates in the area are below 100 per 100K I can see how they've decided to clamp down on regions.

Looking at the Tier two levels I can see the rules clearly with Pubs and Restaurants but can't find any clear rule regarding Coffee shops.

Asking for the Boss.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We are in Tier two although the infection rates in the area are below 100 per 100K I can see how they've decided to clamp down on regions.

Looking at the Tier two levels I can see the rules clearly with Pubs and Restaurants but can't find any clear rule regarding Coffee shops.

Asking for the Boss.
		
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In tier 2 you can't socialise indoors with anyone except those in your household/bubble. The "table service only" in tier 2 only applies to alcohol - so if coffee shops don't serve alcohol, they dont have to be table service only. Likewise the "with substantial meal" requirement again only applies to alcohol. So coffee shops you can presumably just have a coffee & not eat.   Its all there in the government info on the Gov.uk  site


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## SocketRocket (Nov 26, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			In tier 2 you can't socialise indoors with anyone except those in your household/bubble. The "table service only" in tier 2 only applies to alcohol - so if coffee shops don't serve alcohol, they dont have to be table service only. Likewise the "with substantial meal" requirement again only applies to alcohol. So coffee shops you can presumably just have a coffee & not eat.   Its all there in the government info on the Gov.uk  site
		
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I don't think it's that clear. Logically how can eating a meal with a pint indoors be any safer than drinking a pint indoors or drinking a coffee indoors.  I've read all the GOV guidelines but can't se where it clearly explains about cafes or coffee shops.


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## ExRabbit (Nov 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't think it's that clear. Logically how can eating a meal with a pint indoors be any safer than drinking a pint indoors or drinking a coffee indoors.  I've read all the GOV guidelines but can't se where it clearly explains about cafes or coffee shops.
		
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Because if you can drink pints indoors without eating, you might carry on drinking and get drunk, loose your social inhibitions and stop keeping a safe distance etc.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 27, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			Because if you can drink pints indoors without eating, you might carry on drinking and get drunk, loose your social inhibitions and stop keeping a safe distance etc.
		
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And coffee?  How many coffees before I am running down the street in the buff hugging all and sundry?


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## Slab (Nov 27, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			And coffee?  How many coffees before I am running down the street in the buff hugging all and sundry?
		
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What's changed that you now need coffee for that!


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## GreiginFife (Nov 27, 2020)

Slab said:



			What's changed that you now need coffee for that!



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Can withstand the cold better with stimulants 😁

And I think we both know I've never been a hugger 😂


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## DRW (Nov 27, 2020)

Got on the scales last night, trousers getting a bit tight, for the first time in a while. Yeek put on about a stone of blubber. Anyone else put on loads ?

Not enough golf/activity or stuff to keep the body/mind active just work, eating and laying around bored. Got to do something about it.

Just held a press conference with the wife and we are going to be following the science, so locked down the sweet and biscuit cupboard.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't think it's that clear. Logically how can eating a meal with a pint indoors be any safer than drinking a pint indoors or drinking a coffee indoors.  I've read all the GOV guidelines but can't se where it clearly explains about cafes or coffee shops.
		
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Coffee shops and cafes come into it by being outside the definition of selling alcohol. To sell alcohol you have to provide a substantial meal with it.
This is to deter the people who wander down to the pub just for a pint etc and who don't eat there.
You and your fellow householder can go/meet indoors and in a  cafe ,pub or hospitality venue you can drink coffee, tea, etc . If you want alcohol then you have to have a meal with it
You cannot do any of those things or any other form of socialising indoors with anyone  else other than someone who is part of your household.

Considering that the main way this virus is spreading is indoors through the aerosol method, then I personally see it as risky ( being polite) to go to a cafe, pub, etc.,  
It still doesn't seem to have been grasped by most people that SD ( 2 metres etc) is irrelevant indoors without excellent and not usual ventilation. I.e.
All the windows open.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2020)

We are trying to work out if we can visit my MiL before the Christmas 'break' - she is in a Tier 3 area - we are Tier 2.

We think we can, as my wife's brother is effectively my MiLs carer - and I believe we can visit to provide _him _with respite.  Another reason why we would be going is that her brother needs help to do everything they need done in advance of the Christmas 'break'.

And as we are visiting to provide support to my MiL and respite for him - we think we can stay over...(it's a long return journey in a day) but we are not clear on that.

We think...


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## GreiginFife (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are trying to work out if we can visit my MiL before the Christmas 'break' - she is in a Tier 3 area - we are Tier 2.

We think we can, as my wife's brother is effectively my MiLs carer - and I believe we can visit to provide _him _with respite.  Another reason why we would be going is that her brother needs help to do everything they need done in advance of the Christmas 'break'.

And as we are visiting to provide support to my MiL and respite for him - we think we can stay over...(it's a long return journey in a day) but we are not clear on that.

We think...
		
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Why do you insist on making heavy going of what is quite simple? 

If you are in Tier 2, you shouldn't travel to Tier 3 unless for work, medical treatment or caring responsibilities. If you are providing care for your mum in place of your brother (to provide him respite) then you can. If you are not providing care for your mum in place of your brother (to provide him respite), you can't. 

It's not really all that difficult, *unless* of course you _want_ to make it difficult.


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## Billysboots (Nov 27, 2020)

DRW said:



			Got on the scales last night, trousers getting a bit tight, for the first time in a while. Yeek put on about a stone of blubber. Anyone else put on loads ?

Not enough golf/activity or stuff to keep the body/mind active just work, eating and laying around bored. Got to do something about it.

Just held a press conference with the wife and we are going to be following the science, so locked down the sweet and biscuit cupboard.

Click to expand...

Somewhat bizarrely I have done way more exercise since March than I ever have done. I’ve even gone to the lengths of setting up a small gym in the garage.

Even though my work (in normal times) is now office based, with little physical activity, I became really conscious of that level of inactivity when I started to do exactly the same work at home.

I’ve gone from doing cardio or strength work once in the bluest of blue moons to doing at least half an hour every day. The motivation will be tested now it’s colder outside, but I’ve now reached the point where I feel guilty if I have a day off.

So, from an exercise point of view, being stuck at home has actually been quite positive for me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Why do you insist on making heavy going of what is quite simple?

If you are in Tier 2, you shouldn't travel to Tier 3 unless for work, medical treatment or caring responsibilities. If you are providing care for your mum in place of your brother (to provide him respite) then you can. If you are not providing care for your mum in place of your brother (to provide him respite), you can't.

It's not really all that difficult, *unless* of course you _want_ to make it difficult.
		
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Really not trying to make things difficult...see below copied directly from the UK Gov tiers restriction website (my highlights).  My MiL is 90, pretty frail and very reluctant to go out of the house; and my BiL does not drive. They live out of town in a village with no local shops.  Just trying to work out if we can do what we *need *(not want) to do. 

So just looking for what seems to be OK - though not sure on the 'staying over'.  If our thinking looks correct and we are OK to do what we need to do then all I am looking for is a 'your OK'.

*Tier 3: Very High alert*
This is for areas with a very high or very rapidly rising level of infections, where tighter restrictions are in place.

In tier 3:

you must not meet socially indoors or in most outdoor places with anybody you do not live with, or who is not in your support bubble, this includes in any private garden or at most outdoor venues




avoid travelling to other parts of the UK, including for overnight stays other than where necessary, such as for work, education, youth services, to receive medical treatment, *or because of caring responsibilities.* You can travel through other areas as part of a longer journey
*Exemptions from gatherings limits in all tiers*

as part of a single household, or a support bubble
for work or providing voluntary or charitable services, including in other people’s homes
for childcare, education or training – meaning education and training provided as part of a formal curriculum




*to provide care or assistance to someone vulnerable or to provide respite for a carer*
to facilitate moving home


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## GreiginFife (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really not trying to make things difficult...see below copied directly from the UK Gov tiers restriction website (my highlights).  My MiL is 90, pretty frail and very reluctant to go out of the house; and my BiL does not drive. They live out of town in a village with no local shops.  Just trying to work out if we can do what we *need *(not want) to do.

So just looking for what seems to be OK - though not sure on the 'staying over'.  If our thinking looks correct and we are OK to do what we need to do then all I am looking for is a 'your OK'.

*Tier 3: Very High alert*
This is for areas with a very high or very rapidly rising level of infections, where tighter restrictions are in place.

In tier 3:

you must not meet socially indoors or in most outdoor places with anybody you do not live with, or who is not in your support bubble, this includes in any private garden or at most outdoor venues




avoid travelling to other parts of the UK, including for overnight stays other than where necessary, such as for work, education, youth services, to receive medical treatment, *or because of caring responsibilities.* You can travel through other areas as part of a longer journey
*Exemptions from gatherings limits in all tiers*

as part of a single household, or a support bubble
for work or providing voluntary or charitable services, including in other people’s homes
for childcare, education or training – meaning education and training provided as part of a formal curriculum




*to provide care or assistance to someone vulnerable or to provide respite for a carer*
to facilitate moving home


Click to expand...

Yes, I read the exact same website. And, again it's clear unless you don't want it to be. Question; Are you providing care for your mum (as that is the only way *YOU* can provide respite for your brother)? If *YES* then good to go. If *NO*, then not good to go. Simple. 

Unless you meant *you're* OK, then you don't need *my *OK


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are trying to work out if we can visit my MiL before the Christmas 'break' - she is in a Tier 3 area - we are Tier 2.

We think we can, as my wife's brother is effectively my MiLs carer - and I believe we can visit to provide _him _with respite.  Another reason why we would be going is that her brother needs help to do everything they need done in advance of the Christmas 'break'.

And as we are visiting to provide support to my MiL and respite for him - we think we can stay over...(it's a long return journey in a day) but we are not clear on that.

We think...
		
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Well, I don't know what you're contemplating, but seeing this post and 11,511, I get the impression that things might be a bit risky?
Maybe you and/or wife intend to visit an indoor venue and be part of a 1000 audience?   What if you pick something up there.

Then you may visit ,MIL and Bil.

Maybe you aren't intending this. If you are, I hope everyone stays safe.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't think it's that clear. Logically how can eating a meal with a pint indoors be any safer than drinking a pint indoors or drinking a coffee indoors.  I've read all the GOV guidelines but can't se where it clearly explains about cafes or coffee shops.
		
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As S&L says in his post, the guidelines only impose the "table service" and the "substantial meals" restrictions to places that sell alcohol. If a cafe or coffee shop doesn't sell alcohol, then those restriction dont apply.  But if they do sell/serve alcohol, then the restrictions will apply.

Its a bit like the rules of golf - if the rules dont say you can't,  then you can ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, I don't know what you're contemplating, but seeing this post and 11,511, I get the impression that things might be a bit risky?
Maybe you and/or wife intend to visit an indoor venue and be part of a 1000 audience?   What if you pick something up there.

Then you may visit ,MIL and Bil.

Maybe you aren't intending this. If you are, I hope everyone stays safe.
		
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We feel we *need *to visit my MiLs before Christmas break to give my wife's brother a break from his caring duties.  I was simply checking my understanding because it _seemed_ like we could, though not clear if we could stay over at hers.  I was simply asking if my reading as correct.  We are not planning to do anything else.

The venue question was in a quite separate context - but as I suspected I am advised that 80% of a small venue's profit from *takings *from an event come through sale of refreshments - primarily alcohol.  So whilst it seems hopeful for live events being put on in Tier1 and Tier2 areas, and government may talk them up,  if alcohol can't be sold then the events are not going to be financially viable and so are not going to happen.


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## Slab (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We feel we *need *to visit my MiLs before Christmas break to give my wife's brother a break from his caring duties.  I was simply checking my understanding because it _seemed_ like we could, though not clear if we could stay over at hers.  I was simply asking if my reading as correct.  We are not planning to do anything else.

The venue question was in a quite separate context - but as I suspected I am advised that 80% of a small venue's profit from *takings *from an event come through sale of refreshments - primarily alcohol.  So whilst it seems hopeful for live events being put on in Tier1 and Tier2 areas, and government may talk them up,  if alcohol can't be sold then the events are not going to be financially viable and so are not going to happen.
		
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Here's a litmus test for you;

Bearing in mind he's in tier three area, what will your brother in law do while he's 'on a break' ?
If the answer is sit in the same room watching Grandstand or pops to tesco's, while your wife 'visits' her mum and makes her a cup of tea... is that really acting as a carer or providing respite?
If its substantially more involved than that then I think you'll be on solid ground


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2020)

Slab said:



			Here's a litmus test for you;

Bearing in mind he's in tier three area, what will your brother in law do while he's 'on a break' ?
If the answer is sit in the same room watching Grandstand or pops to tesco's, while your wife 'visits' her mum and makes her a cup of tea... is that really acting as a carer or providing respite?
If its substantially more involved than that then I think you'll be on solid ground
		
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Issue is it's difficult for him to go anywhere out of the house.  He doesn't drive and my MiL prefers him to be about - and not out.  She is demanding and very difficult to live with...well - 90 - what you expect...He just needs us to take some load and responsibilities off him for a couple of days - and to do some things that are difficult for him to do.  We aren't going to just be doing 'little' things.

To be honest in some ways my wife would rather have a 'sorry the rules don't allow' get out, as the relationships she has with her mother and brother are not easy - but as the rules look like we can go, then my wife thinks we must.  Whether we really want to or not it is the right thing for us to do


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Issue is it's difficult for him to go anywhere out of the house.  He doesn't drive and my MiL prefers him to be about - and not out.  She is demanding and very difficult to live with...well - 90 - what you expect...He just needs us to take some load and responsibilities off him for a couple of days - and to do some things that are difficult for him to do.  We aren't going to just be doing 'little' things.

To be honest in some ways my wife would rather have a 'sorry the rules don't allow' get out, as the relationships she has with her mother and brother are not easy - but as the rules look like we can go, then my wife thinks we must.  Whether we really want to or not it is the right thing for us to do 

Click to expand...

Bearing in mind how little your MiL and BiL have ventured out, and definitely not to the more higher risk areas of town, you're more likely to take something to them than get anything off them.

The rules are a catch-all but common sense suggests it would be safe as houses. I'd go.


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## Imurg (Nov 27, 2020)

Just seen a tweet from the PGA saying that in T2 and T3 indoor 1:1 coaching is not allowed and only allowed outdoors with caution.
Doesn't bode well for me going back to work 1:1 in a car....


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just seen a tweet from the PGA saying that in T2 and T3 indoor 1:1 coaching is not allowed and only allowed outdoors with caution.
Doesn't bode well for me going back to work 1:1 in a car....

Click to expand...

If you flatten your back swing and take the head rests out you'll be fine.


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## Slab (Nov 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just seen a tweet from the PGA saying that in T2 and T3 indoor 1:1 coaching is not allowed and only allowed outdoors with caution.
Doesn't bode well for me going back to work 1:1 in a car....

Click to expand...

Different kind of 'driver' though


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## SocketRocket (Nov 27, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Coffee shops and cafes come into it by being outside the definition of selling alcohol. To sell alcohol you have to provide a substantial meal with it.
This is to deter the people who wander down to the pub just for a pint etc and who don't eat there.
You and your fellow householder can go/meet indoors and in a  cafe ,pub or hospitality venue you can drink coffee, tea, etc . If you want alcohol then you have to have a meal with it
You cannot do any of those things or any other form of socialising indoors with anyone  else other than someone who is part of your household.

Considering that the main way this virus is spreading is indoors through the aerosol method, then I personally see it as risky ( being polite) to go to a cafe, pub, etc.,  
It still doesn't seem to have been grasped by most people that SD ( 2 metres etc) is irrelevant indoors without excellent and not usual ventilation. I.e.
All the windows open.....
		
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Thanks for the reply.

Regarding the risk and social distancing, we are fully aware of that and will only sit outdoors away from others.


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## GB72 (Nov 27, 2020)

I suppose that is the one plus point of being in Tier 3

"Can I do..........

"No you can't"

End of.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2020)

Been thinking about how few areas are in tier 1 and wondered if this is the pay off for the relaxation at Xmas. It's generally accepted that by allowing households to mix for 5 days at Xmas will see an increase in cases in January. 

Perhaps the government are trying to get the number of cases right down in the next 4 weeks by putting everyone in tiers 2 & 3 so that the spike in January will be lower as it will be from a lower starting point.

Or perhaps I'm giving them too much credit and they are just making it up on the fly.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 27, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



*Why do you insist on making heavy going of what is quite simple?*

If you are in Tier 2, you shouldn't travel to Tier 3 unless for work, medical treatment or caring responsibilities. If you are providing care for your mum in place of your brother (to provide him respite) then you can. If you are not providing care for your mum in place of your brother (to provide him respite), you can't.

It's not really all that difficult, *unless* of course you _want_ to make it difficult.
		
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Because it is yet another thinly veiled political dig & he can't help himself?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 27, 2020)

The rules really are simple:

Tier 1; Pints.
Tier 2; Pints & chips.
Tier 3; No pints.  No chips.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 27, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Because it is yet another thinly veiled political dig & he can't help himself? 

Click to expand...

Every single time I imagine him like this...cracks me up!

<iframe src="https://giphy.com/embed/3oEjHAUOqG3lSS0f1C" width="480" height="360" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="



">via GIPHY</a></p>


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## Slime (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Issue is it's difficult for him to go anywhere out of the house.  He doesn't drive and my MiL prefers him to be about - and not out.  *She is demanding and very difficult to live with...well - 90 - what you expect.*..He just needs us to take some load and responsibilities off him for a couple of days - and to do some things that are difficult for him to do.  We aren't going to just be doing 'little' things.

To be honest in some ways my wife would rather have a 'sorry the rules don't allow' get out, as the relationships she has with her mother and brother are not easy - but as the rules look like we can go, then my wife thinks we must.  Whether we really want to or not it is the right thing for us to do 

Click to expand...

My mum is 91, but she's a joy to be around, not demanding or difficult at all.
They're not all the same.


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## Slime (Nov 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just seen a tweet from the PGA saying that in T2 and T3 indoor 1:1 coaching is not allowed and only allowed outdoors with caution.
Doesn't bode well for me going back to work 1:1 in a car....

Click to expand...

Get a stretched limo and sit in the back with elongated dual controls?


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## Imurg (Nov 27, 2020)

Slime said:



			Get a stretched limo and sit in the back with elongated dual controls?  

Click to expand...

Now that sounds like a plan..
I bet they, eventually,  say that T3 is a no go but T2 can if your windows are wide open.....in mid to low single figure temperatures, rain, sleet and wind...
Retirement is looking quite appealing


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Now that sounds like a plan..
I bet they, eventually,  say that T3 is a no go but T2 can if your windows are wide open.....in mid to low single figure temperatures, rain, sleet and wind...
Retirement is looking quite appealing
		
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Skin is waterproof and roll your sleeves down.


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## Imurg (Nov 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Skin is waterproof and roll your sleeves down.
		
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I refer the Honourable Gentleman to the legal line of my previous statement


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I refer the Honourable Gentleman to the legal line of my previous statement 

Click to expand...

If you're thinking it, do it. If, after a year, you need to go back, do so but I can seriously recommend retirement. We've had to cut back on the stuff we do because we're never in - lockdown permitting.


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## Old Skier (Nov 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I refer the Honourable Gentleman to the legal line of my previous statement 

Click to expand...

Work is overrated


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just seen a tweet from the PGA saying that in T2 and T3 indoor 1:1 coaching is not allowed and only allowed outdoors with caution.
Doesn't bode well for me going back to work 1:1 in a car....

Click to expand...

Daughters b/f is cheesed off as he does a lot of coaching in club's indoor swing studio and has a lot of pre-booked sessions lined up to deliver - he can do some in our covered outdoors range tees - but obviously 'daylight-limited' and has to share the time with other teaching pro.  And he looks at gyms open and doesn't really get it.  Anyway.


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## 4LEX (Nov 27, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Been thinking about how few areas are in tier 1 and wondered if this is the pay off for the relaxation at Xmas. It's generally accepted that by allowing households to mix for 5 days at Xmas will see an increase in cases in January.

Perhaps the government are trying to get the number of cases right down in the next 4 weeks by putting everyone in tiers 2 & 3 so that the spike in January will be lower as it will be from a lower starting point.

Or perhaps I'm giving them too much credit and they are just making it up on the fly.
		
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This is the case. The lower the virus level in the communuty, the lower the spread during those 5 days at Christmas and the less damage in January to the NHS.

Also it's a nod they got the levels wrong before and gave too much credit the country to stick to the guidelines. I'm in Tier 2 now from Tier 1 and I doubt anywhere will get below Tier 2 until March bar remote locations.

Just gotta do the right thing, appreciate what we can do, not moan about what we can't and look forward


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## chellie (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Daughters b/f is cheesed off as he does a lot of coaching in club's indoor swing studio and has a lot of pre-booked sessions lined up to deliver - he can do some in our covered outdoors range tees - but obviously 'daylight-limited' and has to share the time with other teaching pro.  And he looks at gyms open and doesn't really get it.  Anyway.
		
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I would hazard a guess in a gym you are not standing close to the person next to you and it will be a bigger area than a swing studio. I know where I'd rather be and it's the gym.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 27, 2020)

4LEX said:



			This is the case. The lower the virus level in the communuty, the lower the spread during those 5 days at Christmas and the less damage in January to the NHS.

Also it's a nod they got the levels wrong before and gave too much credit the country to stick to the guidelines. I'm in Tier 2 now from Tier 1 and I doubt anywhere will get below Tier 2 until March bar remote locations.

Just gotta do the right thing, appreciate what we can do, not moan about what we can't and look forward 

Click to expand...

And on the plus side, it makes no difference to me what tier we're in. I walk my younger boy to school and pick him up each day. Go to the butcher's and supermarket once a week. And apart from popping to the corner shop to pick up more milk or bread if we run out that's about it. We don't go to the pub and wouldn't be eating out regardless of tier and just don't invite anyone to the house.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2020)

Virtual Christmas Services - but next weekend our choir is getting together in our church sanctuary - masked up and well separated - to record the carols and hymns for each service.  Means I'm going to have to get my very rusty bass-baritone warmed up ... Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Dooooooo


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 27, 2020)

chellie said:



			I would hazard a guess in a gym you are not standing close to the person next to you and it will be a bigger area than a swing studio. I know where I'd rather be and it's the gym.
		
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And likely you are not talking a lot of the time, whereas instructors are talking a lot of the time quite close to pupils. And indoors that is risky. Very.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 27, 2020)

Long day. No room at the ICU inn and every regular bed taken and now struggling with how to keep the Covid cases together in a hot zone without compromising non-covid cases. Been working with the in charges, and bed managers on rotas and trying to move patients around almost Tetris like. Even more fun then trying to match visiting relatives to patients in different beds


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## drdel (Nov 27, 2020)

Just because the 'guidelines' do not prevent certain activities does not mean its wise to do it. 

Winter always increases respiratory issues; add Covd19 to the mix then inviting or visiting anyone indoors, especially with central heating running etc. is hardly prudent. 

Another 3 months is not that long...


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## drdel (Nov 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Long day. No room at the ICU inn and every regular bed taken and now struggling with how to keep the Covid cases together in a hot zone without compromising non-covid cases. Been working with the in charges, and bed managers on rotas and trying to move patients around almost Tetris like. Even more fun then trying to match visiting relatives to patients in different beds
		
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Good luck; you and your colleagues have my respect whereas those constantly whining and looking for ways 'around' the guidelines certainly do not.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Good luck; you and your colleagues have my respect whereas those constantly whining and looking for ways 'around' the guidelines certainly do not.
		
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To be fair, I simply try and take the paperwork and admin away and let the nursing staff from the top down look after the patients and the less experienced nurses. They have the hard work especially in full PPE for the shift. My day was about moving patients (where safe to do so) to try and keep Covid and non-covid separate and have some wriggle room for some more tonight or if they come up "suspected" prior to their swab results coming through. That and sorting the rota so we have enough of each grade. In the end we are an ICU family and we'll work (and play) as such and everyone has everyones back and will pick people up having a tough shift, have a laugh where appropriate and we'll get through it together


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## Del_Boy (Nov 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Issue is it's difficult for him to go anywhere out of the house.  He doesn't drive and my MiL prefers him to be about - and not out.  She is demanding and very difficult to live with...well - 90 - what you expect...He just needs us to take some load and responsibilities off him for a couple of days - and to do some things that are difficult for him to do.  We aren't going to just be doing 'little' things.

To be honest in some ways my wife would rather have a 'sorry the rules don't allow' get out, as the relationships she has with her mother and brother are not easy - but as the rules look like we can go, then my wife thinks we must.  Whether we really want to or not it is the right thing for us t
		
Click to expand...

Does it need both of you to go can’t your wife go on her own


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## 4LEX (Nov 27, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Long day. No room at the ICU inn and every regular bed taken and now struggling with how to keep the Covid cases together in a hot zone without compromising non-covid cases. Been working with the in charges, and bed managers on rotas and trying to move patients around almost Tetris like. Even more fun then trying to match visiting relatives to patients in different beds
		
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Sorry for being nosey but what's your job and what hospital are you based at?


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## 4LEX (Nov 27, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			And on the plus side, it makes no difference to me what tier we're in. I walk my younger boy to school and pick him up each day. Go to the butcher's and supermarket once a week. And apart from popping to the corner shop to pick up more milk or bread if we run out that's about it. We don't go to the pub and wouldn't be eating out regardless of tier and just don't invite anyone to the house.
		
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That's definitely a good little routine you have there and a safe one at that  

I live on my own, low risk due to age and fitness so I'll probably go out for bottomless brunches, catch up with friends over dinner/drinks and maybe some other stuff that could be classed as a grey area. Being back to work and lots of golf will make a big difference too. Luckily I have a tiny family so I'll spend Christmas Day with them but I'll get a test a few days before that and make sure I do it properly this time!


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 27, 2020)

4LEX said:



			Sorry for being nosey but what's your job and what hospital are you based at?
		
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Based at the Royal Berkshire in Reading. My title (clunky NHS as it is) is Critical Care Admin Manager. It was a new role formed (for me) by our matron who wanted someone to come in and take the paperwork off the senor nursing staff (lead nurse, sisters, practice educators etc) so they could nurse, mentor and teach. It was a blank canvass and has morphed into a mish-mash including recruitment (I came from a recruitment role), rotas, managing a team of ward clerks etc. Since then it has become a more reactionary role since Covid and so more work with my directorate manager and lead nurse to make sure the unit operates smoothly 

Probably sounds far more grandiose than it is but the feedback I've had has been very positive (hence the promotion) and clearly rolling it elsewhere shows the model works.


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## 4LEX (Nov 28, 2020)

Fair play mate, a lot of respect for you. I'm just in shock at the NHS managing to implement a structure that is both effective and makes sense


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2020)

Good advice against extended families playing board games.
Monopoly generally involves much shouting in my very competitive family.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Woke up this morning to an alert on my phone saying I’ve been near someone positive and have to isolate for 9 days.

As it’s 9 days I take it that means I had the contact 5 days ago, ie, monday?

However, with my m-in-law passing away last sunday once we were home I never left the house until wednesday and I’m very confused when the contact occurred.

Yes, I will isolate, but can anyone clarify how it works as to when I could of been exposed.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Virtual Christmas Services - but next weekend our choir is getting together in our church sanctuary - masked up and well separated - to record the carols and hymns for each service.  Means I'm going to have to get my very rusty bass-baritone warmed up ... Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Dooooooo  

Click to expand...

Well, unless you have a breeze passing thru your choir venue, the best of luck!
You are indoors, singing, which is akin to shouting in terms of expelled air, and I bet you have little ventilation.
Reasonable to assume your choir is of mixed ages, so , all in all, you are going to be in a virus loving situation.
Not a good idea, IMO


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## Kellfire (Nov 28, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good advice against extended families playing board games.
Monopoly generally involves much shouting in my very competitive family.

Click to expand...

Do you play the much forgotten rule that if someone declines to purchase a property they land on, there should be an auction for everyone else to bid for it? So many people forget this rule and the game drags because of it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Yeah they work on 14 days and deduct how many days ago you were in contact.
Could the notification have actually been sent yesterday, although you only saw it this morning?
		
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Possibly if it arrived between 11pm and midnight, went to bed just after 11 and checked phone when I put it on charge.

Wife was with me sunday in hospice and obviously mon/tues and she’s had no alert.🤷‍♂️


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, unless you have a breeze passing thru your choir venue, the best of luck!
You are indoors, singing, which is akin to shouting in terms of expelled air, and I bet you have little ventilation.
Reasonable to assume your choir is of mixed ages, so , all in all, you are going to be in a virus loving situation.
Not a good idea, IMO
		
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We are going to have doors open so there will be quite a bit of a breeze. Plus being a large and high Victorian sanctuary it’s very large and high space. We’ve been advised to wear warm clothing and will be wearing masks.  Believe me - it would not be happening if we thought there was a significant risk to any of us.  What volume we‘ll be singing at I don’t know.  Previous small choir gatherings when we could have services over the last few months we have sung sotto voce.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do you play the much forgotten rule that if someone declines to purchase a property they land on, there should be an auction for everyone else to bid for it? So many people forget this rule and the game drags because of it.
		
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 Love that rule. But for clarity, everyone can bid on it including the person that landed there and declined to purchase it.


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## Slime (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are going to have doors open so there will be quite a bit of a breeze. Plus being a large and high Victorian sanctuary it’s very large and high space. We’ve been advised to wear warm clothing and will be wearing masks.  *Believe me - it would not be happening if we thought there was a significant risk to any of us. * What volume we‘ll be singing at I don’t know.  Previous small choir gatherings when we could have services over the last few months we have sung sotto voce.
		
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Wow, even a low or moderate risk would have me ducking out.


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## Billysboots (Nov 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do you play the much forgotten rule that if someone declines to purchase a property they land on, there should be an auction for everyone else to bid for it? So many people forget this rule and the game drags because of it.
		
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We do. I’m glad I’m not the only one who still remembers how to get a single game of Monopoly finished in less than 48 hours.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do you play the much forgotten rule that if someone declines to purchase a property they land on, there should be an auction for everyone else to bid for it? So many people forget this rule and the game drags because of it.
		
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Never played that rule - will do so from now on (next Christmas of course)!!


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Woke up this morning to an alert on my phone saying I’ve been near someone positive and have to isolate for 9 days.

As it’s 9 days I take it that means I had the contact 5 days ago, ie, monday?

However, with my m-in-law passing away last sunday once we were home I never left the house until wednesday and I’m very confused when the contact occurred.

Yes, I will isolate, but can anyone clarify how it works as to when I could of been exposed.
		
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If you are sure that the app is wrong, that you weren't out of the house around that time, and nobody came to the house that later tested positive, it is probably an error. There is no legal requirement to follow the app instruction (unlike a call from Serco), so up to you whether you consider this an erroneous notification. I probably would.


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Based at the Royal Berkshire in Reading. My title (clunky NHS as it is) is Critical Care Admin Manager. It was a new role formed (for me) by our matron who wanted someone to come in and take the paperwork off the senor nursing staff (lead nurse, sisters, practice educators etc) so they could nurse, mentor and teach. It was a blank canvass and has morphed into a mish-mash including recruitment (I came from a recruitment role), rotas, managing a team of ward clerks etc. Since then it has become a *more reactionary* role since Covid and so more work with my directorate manager and lead nurse to make sure the unit operates smoothly

Probably sounds far more grandiose than it is but the feedback I've had has been very positive (hence the promotion) and clearly rolling it elsewhere shows the model works.
		
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What has the RBH against progress or liberalism?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If you are sure that the app is wrong, that you weren't out of the house around that time, and nobody came to the house that later tested positive, it is probably an error. There is no legal requirement to follow the app instruction (unlike a call from Serco), so up to you whether you consider this an erroneous notification. I probably would.
		
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Cheers, to be on the safe side I intend to follow the advice, but it’s so frustrating to get so little information, probably a bit more frustrating due to what’s going on in my life at the moment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Slime said:



			Wow, even a low or moderate risk would have me ducking out.
		
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OK - the rules allow us to do this.  In fact the rules don’t require us to use any face coverings but we are.  There may be 15 or so of us spaced 2m apart in all directions (including up 👍) - and individually we will be singing forward and will not be singing at anything like ‘full volume’. I am not in the slightest bit worried and any usual members of the choir who do not wish to participate won’t be.


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

Reports that tier changes are unlikely and we could be in tier 3 until March not exactly cheering me up. Already 5 weeks since I have seen anyone except my wife and my work colleagues and it is driving me up the wall. Not sure how I would take another 16 weeks of this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Reflecting this morning on what is in store for us all over the weeks leading up to the Christmas break - I am feeling very grateful and fortunate that coming out of lockdown we of the golfing community will be able to participate in our sport of choice.  The vast majority of the population will not be as fortunate as we are - how many shops can you go in and how much tv can you watch! I am very grateful that I am are so privileged...and privileged to be a member of a golf club such as mine.


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers, to be on the safe side I intend to follow the advice, but it’s so frustrating to get so little information, probably a bit more frustrating due to what’s going on in my life at the moment.
		
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I find the process rather unsatisfactory. OK, even if your phone did detect proximity to someone who later tests positive, it has no idea whether you were wearing masks, facing one another or facing away, whether it was a bank teller behind glass from you, in a pokey poorly ventilated space or a well ventilated one. More information is needed to really judge the situation.


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## Hobbit (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are going to have doors open so there will be quite a bit of a breeze. Plus being a large and high Victorian sanctuary it’s very large and high space. We’ve been advised to wear warm clothing and will be wearing masks.  Believe me - it would not be happening if we thought there was a significant risk to any of us.  What volume we‘ll be singing at I don’t know.  Previous small choir gatherings when we could have services over the last few months we have sung sotto voce.
		
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And then you're thinking of going up to the MiL's... You've acknowledged there's a risk but, with your expert knowledge, determined its not significant. Its no risk if you don't do it. Why do you continually look to duck around the recommendations?


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I find the process rather unsatisfactory. OK, even if your phone did detect proximity to someone who later tests positive, it has no idea whether you were wearing masks, facing one another or facing away, whether it was a bank teller behind glass from you, in a pokey poorly ventilated space or a well ventilated one. More information is needed to really judge the situation.
		
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Not sure how it works with walls. Ok this may sound silly but in a semi detached house or office, would it ping if someone in the building next door tested positive assuming you spent a decent amount of time in proximity with a brick wall between you


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## AmandaJR (Nov 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And then you're thinking of going up to the MiL's... You've acknowledged there's a risk but, with your expert knowledge, determined its not significant. Its no risk if you don't do it. Why do you continually look to duck around the recommendations?
		
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But the rules allow it. Amazing how some rules are understandable and others just cause such confusion


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			But the rules allow it. Amazing how some rules are understandable and others just cause such confusion 

Click to expand...

Equally, just because rules allow it does it make it a good idea? The govt are passing responsibility over to people to an extent now, certainly over Christmas itself. How people treat that responsibility is up to them. I'm okay with that as long as social media is not then filled with people expressing horror at having caught the virus after taking unnecessary risks.


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## chellie (Nov 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Equally, just because rules allow it does it make it a good idea? The govt are passing responsibility over to people to an extent now, certainly over Christmas itself. How people treat that responsibility is up to them. I'm okay with that as long as social media is not then filled with people expressing horror at having caught the virus after taking unnecessary risks.
		
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You know that's going to happen don't you. The same as did over the summer when people drive for hours to a beach then complained it was busy. I'm going to watch/read even less news than I do now as it infuriates me so much and isn't good for my mental health.read

So many people are just picking and choosing what they want to do and sod everyone else.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I find the process rather unsatisfactory. OK, even if your phone did detect proximity to someone who later tests positive, it has no idea whether you were wearing masks, facing one another or facing away, whether it was a bank teller behind glass from you, in a pokey poorly ventilated space or a well ventilated one. More information is needed to really judge the situation.
		
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That’s exactly it, probably 90% of any other week I would probably forget something I’d done or were I’d been, but last Sunday/Monday I am 100% positive on my movements and who I interacted with and it was 1 person, a Nurse, from the Hospice.

I also have the moral dilemma of wanting to phone the Hospice to ask if any Nurses are positive, but don’t want to cause any anguish for them or the patients or the patients families.


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

chellie said:



			You know that's going to happen don't you. The same as did over the summer when people drive for hours to a beach then complained it was busy. I'm going to watch/read even less news than I do now as it infuriates me so much and isn't good for my mental health.read

So many people are just picking and choosing what they want to do and sod everyone else.
		
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Not exactly picking and choosing but I will put my hands up and say that I will be making the most of Xmas. By then I will have had 2 months of no external social interaction and there is a strong prospect of the same for 3 months after. I will put my hands up now and say that I will be making the most of the chance to enjoy the company if friends for those few days. I do not think my mental health could suffer 5 months of just staying at home under tier 3 regulations. Not what many want to hear but I am at least being honest about my intentions and reasoning


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers, to be on the safe side I intend to follow the advice, but it’s so frustrating to get so little information, probably a bit more frustrating due to what’s going on in my life at the moment.
		
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My son lives with 4 others. His 4 flatmates got pinged a few weeks ago, he didn't. In the current situation in liverpool they are barely going out and when they do that situation of all of the others being near someone else and him not is not feasible. They should either all have been pinged or none. As it happens they all got tested, all negative, but it didn't make sense.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2020)

To those who are planning to make unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors. 
This is how many of them will be spending their Christmas.




 All they want for Christmas is for you to stay at home.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Equally, just because rules allow it does it make it a good idea? The govt are passing responsibility over to people to an extent now, certainly over Christmas itself. How people treat that responsibility is up to them. I'm okay with that as long as social media is not then filled with people expressing horror at having caught the virus after taking unnecessary risks.
		
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Exactly. At the risk of implying that I have little regard for the rules ( which is not the case), We had already determined our behaviour through to hopefully the vaccine in the New Year.  ( should be high on list because of age).
No one comes into my house unless it is vitally necessary. We don't go into anyone else's.
We each meet people  outdoors As per the rules, from a very small group of relatives and friends. My wife walks with a friend and I will play golf with one friend. I have postponed competition golf.
We are lucky, my daughter arranges our shopping online and I pick up click and collect.
I go into very few premises and not unless I have to.
There will be no Xmas break from this . Xmas will be only sending cards which we already have a supply of.
It is regrettable, but there it is.
I have my fingers crossed for the NHS in the next two months.


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## chellie (Nov 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not exactly picking and choosing but I will put my hands up and say that I will be making the most of Xmas. By then I will have had 2 months of no external social interaction and there is a strong prospect of the same for 3 months after. I will put my hands up now and say that I will be making the most of the chance to enjoy the company if friends for those few days. I do not think my mental health could suffer 5 months of just staying at home under tier 3 regulations. Not what many want to hear but I am at least being honest about my intentions and reasoning
		
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Well I'm still meeting others outside in Tier 3. I'll be back to the gym and playing golf when they reopen and will continue to go to the beach for a walk. Can't you do that? We still won't be having any meeting up inside our house though. HID and myself are both still going out to our workplaces. Soon I will be having weekly covid testing.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			To those who are planning to make unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.
This is how many of them will be spending their Christmas.

View attachment 33756


All they want for Christmas is for you to stay at home.
		
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It’s difficult, define unnecessary. We’re not having our big family Christmas, but I’ll be going to the golf club/gym ASAP. They’re not strictly necessary. Some of the posts above indicate the mental strain of locking yourself up


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

chellie said:



			Well I'm still meeting others outside in Tier 3. I'll be back to the gym and playing golf when they reopen and will continue to go to the beach for a walk. Can't you do that? We still won't be having any meeting up inside our house though. HID and myself are both still going out to our workplaces. Soon I will be having weekly covid testing.
		
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Nope, not currently a member of a golf club  and perspex screens mean no socialising at the gym. So nope. Don't really socialise at work, stay on my office most of the day and wife works from home at the moment. Really feeling it at the moment and need human interaction outside of just my wife.


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## chellie (Nov 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Nope, not currently a member of a golf club  and perspex screens mean no socialising at the gym. So nope. Don't really socialise at work, stay on my office most of the day and wife works from home at the moment. Really feeling it at the moment and need human interaction outside of just my wife.
		
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Ah, only perspex at our gym is for the staff to be behind. Don't really socialise at the gym but at least I'm getting out to see different faces. Can you not arrange to go for a walk with someone else?


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

chellie said:



			Ah, only perspex at our gym is for the staff to be behind. Don't really socialise at the gym but at least I'm getting out to see different faces. Can you not arrange to go for a walk with someone else?
		
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Yes but it is what individuals need to relax and relieve stress etc. For me it is meeting with a couple if friends, chatting, couple of bottles of wine etc. Not talking parties etc. Rural living can be very isolating when you take away the community. Even in tier 2 I could set up some heaters in the garden but tier 3 is a nightmare for me. Again, if this was for another month then I think I could handle it better but the fact that the talk is now of being in the same tier until the end of March and we are talking nearly 6 months in relative isolation and I will admit now that I do not think I can follow the rules for that long


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Yes but it is what individuals need to relax and relieve stress etc. For me it is meeting with a couple if friends, chatting, couple of bottles of wine etc. Not talking parties etc. Rural living can be very isolating when you take away the community. Even in tier 2 I could set up some heaters in the garden but tier 3 is a nightmare for me. Again, if this was for another month then I think I could handle it better but the fact that the talk is now of being in the same tier until the end of March and we are talking nearly 6 months in relative isolation and I will admit now that I do not think I can follow the rules for that long
		
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Where is this talk about until the end of March ?

That’s 4 months - they aren’t going to have that level of strict restrictions for 4 months .

They are constantly going to be assessing the situation- I know it’s hard not to do but got to think of the best situations not the worst


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## AmandaJR (Nov 28, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Equally, just because rules allow it does it make it a good idea? The govt are passing responsibility over to people to an extent now, certainly over Christmas itself. How people treat that responsibility is up to them. I'm okay with that as long as social media is not then filled with people expressing horror at having caught the virus after taking unnecessary risks.
		
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I totally agree. People play dumb to make a point but then seem to know every infinite detail of the rules when it comes to things they want to do. As far as I'm concerned the only change to lockdown is I can play golf and go to the gym. Zero mixing inside for me and I've had the blasted thing so should be immune for a while yet.


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where is this talk about until the end of March ?

That’s 4 months - they aren’t going to have that level of strict restrictions for 4 months .
		
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Couple of sources quoted on news sites today (ok usual anonymous ones so slight pinch of salt) that they cannot see tiers changing much and very little chance of reaching tier 1. Guessing the highest pressure on the NHS is in January and February so unlikely to see much/any relaxation until March. No coincidence that this is when furlough was extended to


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## chellie (Nov 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where is this talk about until the end of March ?

That’s 4 months - they aren’t going to have that level of strict restrictions for 4 months .

They are constantly going to be assessing the situation- I know it’s hard not to do but got to think of the best situations not the worst
		
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Feeling from quite a few I know is that it will be to March as well.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Couple of sources quoted on news sites today (ok usual anonymous ones so slight pinch of salt) that they cannot see tiers changing much and very little chance of reaching tier 1. Guessing the highest pressure on the NHS is in January and February so unlikely to see much/any relaxation until March. No coincidence that this is when furlough was extended to
		
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 I am sure that is a not unreasonable assumption. 

I don't think there will be much if any change until the vaccination programme is  well underway and the experts suggest that will  be  Easter.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s difficult, define unnecessary. We’re not having our big family Christmas, but I’ll be going to the golf club/gym ASAP. They’re not strictly necessary. Some of the posts above indicate the mental strain of locking yourself up
		
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It can't be much fun for the doctors and nurses who have to watch people in their care die needlessly every day.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 28, 2020)

bobmac said:



			It can't be much fun for the doctors and nurses who have to watch people in their care die needlessly every day.
		
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Without being unduly flippant (unlike your reply) thats unfortunately an occupational hazard. Lockdowns are about easing admission rates, not preventing deaths. 
It’s not a zero sum equation. Whilst I support some measures, the effects of this action will be with us long after the vaccine has been proven to be effective.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Without being unduly flippant (unlike your reply) thats unfortunately an occupational hazard. Lockdowns are about easing admission rates, not preventing deaths.
It’s not a zero sum equation. Whilst I support some measures, the effects of this action will be with us long after the vaccine has been proven to be effective.
		
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The mental side is a tough balance

First lockdown I worked solid as a key worker . Overtime constantly 

This one I been on leave and paternity .. before lockdown I had leave but could play golf once a week. Just for mental health

I've missed it so much. Im working today .. which is just beautiful to get away from home for a bit. Don't get me wrong I love my kids and my wife dearly but being just at home constantly without a small break has made us snappy at each other and it don't feel great 

Got a round booked this week and I predict even a round a fortnight will just help so much more


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Couple of sources quoted on news sites today (ok usual anonymous ones so slight pinch of salt) that they cannot see tiers changing much and very little chance of reaching tier 1. Guessing the highest pressure on the NHS is in January and February so unlikely to see much/any relaxation until March. No coincidence that this is when furlough was extended to
		
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Tier systems will be in place but if areas numbers come down then there is little justification to stay in the highest tier -if an area stays in tier 3 for 4 months then something isn’t right.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The mental side is a tough balance

First lockdown I worked solid as a key worker . Overtime constantly

This one I been on leave and paternity .. before lockdown I had leave but could play golf once a week. Just for mental health

I've missed it so much. Im working today .. which is just beautiful to get away from home for a bit. Don't get me wrong I love my kids and my wife dearly but being just at home constantly without a small break has made us snappy at each other and it don't feel great

Got a round booked this week and I predict even a round a fortnight will just help so much more
		
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 I’m not an entrenched libertarian. Whilst Bobs post is hyperbole, there is an element of truth in there regards protection of the NHS. The flip side is the unemployment, bankruptcy, mental health issues and general affect of a fear riven society that all of these ‘lockdown/tier measures will cause. The tiers themselves are a nonsense, rural Leicestershire in with urban Leicester, but Windsor is separate from Slough 😱😱😱


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Yes but it is what individuals need to relax and relieve stress etc. For me it is meeting with a couple if friends, chatting, couple of bottles of wine etc. Not talking parties etc. Rural living can be very isolating when you take away the community. Even in tier 2 I could set up some heaters in the garden but tier 3 is a nightmare for me. Again, if this was for another month then I think I could handle it better but the fact that the talk is now of being in the same tier until the end of March and we are talking nearly 6 months in relative isolation and I will admit now that I do not think I can follow the rules for that long
		
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If you want to have a talk then I'm available for a chat.  Just give me a pm if you want 👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m not an entrenched libertarian. Whilst Bobs post is hyperbole, there is an element of truth in there regards protection of the NHS. The flip side is the unemployment, bankruptcy, mental health issues and general affect of a fear riven society that all of these ‘lockdown/tier measures will cause. The tiers themselves are a nonsense, rural Leicestershire in with urban Leicester, but Windsor is separate from Slough 😱😱😱
		
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We have family friends in pembury .. they have been given tier 3 in Kent

Due to cases an hour drive away

It's a bit mental how the areas are so broad

I mean their rates are lower than ours


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 28, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Without being unduly flippant (unlike your reply) thats unfortunately an occupational hazard. Lockdowns are about easing admission rates, not preventing deaths.
It’s not a zero sum equation. Whilst I support some measures, the effects of this action will be with us long after the vaccine has been proven to be effective.
		
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Of course it's about preventing deaths. It's about easing admission rates too.
Because if you're not admitted, you don't die( of Covid).
What you call flippant is a timely reminder that as bad as it is to be in lockdown, it most certainly is worse for many others, and certainly the Drs and nurses as described by Bob.
Don't forget , they are in lockdown too, and when they are off duty they more than you and I, and many others, need the freedoms and ability to wind down and release the tensions that are presently denied us.
So,  no, none is being flippant here.


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want to have a talk then I'm available for a chat.  Just give me a pm if you want 👍
		
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Cheers mate. Not that bad at the moment. Guess as I had to cancel birthday celebrations (6 of us having dinner only) I am just looking at the bad in everything. Will bounce back


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## GB72 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We have family friends in pembury .. they have been given tier 3 in Kent

Due to cases an hour drive away

It's a bit mental how the areas are so broad

I mean their rates are lower than ours
		
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Same here, whole of Lincolnshire locked down due to issues in the north and east. 30 miles from the nearest hotspots but only 10 miles from tier 2 in Rutland


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## Leftitshort (Nov 28, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Of course it's about preventing deaths. It's about easing admission rates too.
Because if you're not admitted, you don't die( of Covid).
What you call flippant is a timely reminder that as bad as it is to be in lockdown, it most certainly is worse for many others, and certainly the Drs and nurses as described by Bob.
Don't forget , they are in lockdown too, and when they are off duty they more than you and I, and many others, need the freedoms and ability to wind down and release the tensions that are presently denied us.
So,  no, none is being flippant here.
		
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That’s precisely my point, it’s nuanced. Stay at home save lives, isn’t nuanced, so to repeat it verbatim is to ignore the other knock on affects.
Without labouring the point, again to remove hyperbole, lockdowns manage the flow of admissions (primary) they can reduce the death rate, because they allow effective, resourced treatment of the most ill.(secondary) 
I recognise their importance and support their use where necessary. I also recognise the other ‘negative’ implications of this action.


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## Billysboots (Nov 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tier systems will be in place but if areas numbers come down then there is little justification to stay in the highest tier -if an area stays in tier 3 for 4 months then something isn’t right.
		
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Totally agree, but I’m really losing faith that there is much enthusiasm to move areas between tiers, certainly downwards. And my mood isn’t helped when MP’s can’t even agree.

My own MP has suggested there is no reason why our own district cannot be treated as a separate entity to the local city, and moved to Tier 2 once the infection rate justifies it. Contrast that to another local MP who maintains the county will be dealt with as one. And that spells trouble for the county because the city has been a Covid hotspot for months.

The consensus seems to be Tier 1 is likely to be an unachievable dream unless you live on an island with only a couple of goats for company. And for counties like ours, whilst the city continues to have a sky high infection rate, the rest of the county will continue to pay the price, and Tier 2 is little more than a pipe dream.

That means that indoor social interaction for many beyond their own households won’t be happening any time soon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And then you're thinking of going up to the MiL's... You've acknowledged there's a risk but, with your expert knowledge, determined its not significant. Its no risk if you don't do it. Why do you continually look to duck around the recommendations?
		
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I’m not looking to duck around and don’t and haven’t.  The rules for gatherings in Tier2 say we can as a church do what’s planned - we 100% would not do it if we were not 100% compliant. In fact we will be more than compliant as we will wear masks and we are not required to do so.  The services themselves will be on-line.

And as far as going to MiLs next weekend? We’re not. We will prob go later in the month.  We would not go if it did not fit 100% with what we are allowed to do.

We are not of those who push the bounds of the rules to see what we can get away with. That’s just not our approach to living and coping with this.


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m not looking to duck and don’t.  The rules for gatherings in Tier2 say we can as a church do what’s planned - we 100% would not do it if we were not 100% compliant. In fact we will be more than compliant as we will wear masks and we are not required to do so.  The services themselves will be on-line.

And as far as going to MiLs next weekend? We’re not. We will prob go later in the month.  We would not go if it did not fit 100% with what we are allowed to do.

We are not of those who push the bounds of the rules to see what we can get away with. That’s just not our approach to living and coping with this.
		
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I thought there was no mixing inside except for your household or bubble...


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 28, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Do you play the much forgotten rule that if someone declines to purchase a property they land on, there should be an auction for everyone else to bid for it? So many people forget this rule and the game drags because of it.
		
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It's been re introduced in the new rules.
We also allow bids/deals/swops for other players cards at any time.
Alliances and partnerships tend to get formed if some looks like like winning.
Probably why we argue so much.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			But the rules allow it. Amazing how some rules are understandable and others just cause such confusion 

Click to expand...

For goodness sake.  I believe that I fully understand all the rules but when asking about going to my MiLs I was actually testing my understanding to see if I had got it 100% right.  Make that comment towards others but don’t make it towards me please.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I thought there was no mixing inside except for your household or bubble...

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From uk gov website

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-restriction-tiers-what-you-need-to-know

All tiers...

places of worship – communal worship can now resume, subject to relevant social contact rules in each tier


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From uk gov website

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-restriction-tiers-what-you-need-to-know

All tiers...

places of worship – communal worship can now resume, subject to relevant social contact rules in each tier


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And what are the relevant social contact rules for your tier? T2 I presume..?
Not arguing ..just asking.


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## Crow (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From uk gov website

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-restriction-tiers-what-you-need-to-know

All tiers...

places of worship – communal worship can now resume, subject to relevant social contact rules in each tier


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Just stop posting your diary up on the forum, it'll give you and everyone else a break.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For goodness sake.  I believe that I fully understand all the rules but when asking about going to my MiLs I was actually testing my understanding to see if I had got it 100% right.  Make that comment towards others but don’t make it towards me please.
		
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Are you going to test your understanding by maybe driving to Barnard Castle?  😂😂

Surely you must be fully aware of the rules by now, you’ve discussed them enough


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## GreiginFife (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			For goodness sake.  I believe that I fully understand all the rules but when asking about going to my MiLs I was actually testing my understanding to see if I had got it 100% right.  Make that comment towards others but don’t make it towards me please.
		
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So, lemme get this right... you fully understand the rules (i.e. 100% understand) then want to check of you are 100% understanding? Come on man, your posts are nothing more than thinly veiled digs at the rules and, more importantly, the rule makers. And its wearing thin with many forumers by the looks of it.

On several topics you twist and turn your point of view to suit a certain context. Its actually a little tragic but also a little amusing as well.


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2020)

The rules set by Govt certainly have inconsistencies in them, for sure, but are meant to define a simple to understand level of safety. They should not be used as a target, though, just like it isn't wise to drink to within 1mg/ml of the drink-driving limit even though it is barely legal.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m not looking to duck around and don’t and haven’t.  The rules for gatherings in Tier2 say we can as a church do what’s planned - we 100% would not do it if we were not 100% compliant. In fact we will be more than compliant as we will wear masks and we are not required to do so.  The services themselves will be on-line.

And as far as going to MiLs next weekend? We’re not. We will prob go later in the month.  We would not go if it did not fit 100% with what we are allowed to do.

*We are not of those who push the bounds of the rules to see what we can get away with.* That’s just not our approach to living and coping with this.
		
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Except when it involves political posts...?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			So, lemme get this right... you fully understand the rules (i.e. 100% understand) then want to check of you are 100% understanding? Come on man, your posts are nothing more than thinly veiled digs at the rules and, more importantly, the rule makers. *And its wearing thin with many forumers by the looks of it.*

On several topics you twist and turn your point of view to suit a certain context. Its actually a little tragic but also a little amusing as well.
		
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Not so much wearing thin as worn through some time ago.


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## User62651 (Nov 28, 2020)

Live and let live folks, just seems that lockdown is kicking in for too many forummers, keen to have a pop at whomever over literally nothing. For a forum to work it needs some opposing views and contentions, even the odd devils advocate.

Chill - Here's a nice photo I took at sunset this afternoon out with the pooch, lovely stuff  -


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## Tashyboy (Nov 28, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Live and let live folks, just seems that lockdown is kicking in for too many forummers, keen to have a pop at whomever over literally nothing. For a forum to work it needs some opposing views and contentions, even the odd devils advocate.

Chill - Here's a nice photo I took at sunset this afternoon out with the pooch, lovely stuff  -

View attachment 33763

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Amen to that brother. Lovely photo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 33757


It appears very simple, meeting up for a group sing song is clearly not allowed in Tier 2.
		
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We will not be socialising and your characterisation as a group sing-song a church choir with individuals all facing the one direction, not mixing and standing 2m from the next member is disingenuous.  Look - I’m not organising this and our minister is a stickler for the rules. If there was any doubt about whether or not we could do this we would not be doing it - believe me.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 28, 2020)

Re these Covid lockdown rules I fully understand what’s what. What I don’t understand or believe is that the scientists who are supposed to be guiding and advising the government are actually coming up with these plans.
I remember when it kicked off in March on here  re us having grandkids. Both parents and parents partners are coppers. We have grandkids a hell of a lot. They have helped to keep us sane. I really do feel for grandparents who have not been able to see there grandkids as much as they would like. Young Layla Tash is playing with her her noisy Rizmo, it’s getting on me nerves.Wouldn’t have it any other way.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			So, lemme get this right... you fully understand the rules (i.e. 100% understand) then want to check of you are 100% understanding? Come on man, your posts are nothing more than thinly veiled digs at the rules and, more importantly, the rule makers. And its wearing thin with many forumers by the looks of it.

On several topics you twist and turn your point of view to suit a certain context. Its actually a little tragic but also a little amusing as well.
		
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I think it's a case of posting things hoping/knowing it'll get a reaction and then seeming surprised when people bite and replay in a way he doesn't like


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Except when it involves political posts...? 

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I don’t post political posts in the current regime - others might choose to interpret words as such - that is there lookout.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Are you going to test your understanding by maybe driving to Barnard Castle?  😂😂

Surely you must be fully aware of the rules by now, you’ve discussed them enough
		
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You know what - I thought we don’t do personal criticism stuff on these boards - I thought that the mods were clamping down on that sort of stuff. Clearly it seems that doesn’t apply across the board.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think it's a case of posting things hoping/knowing it'll get a reaction and then seeming surprised when people bite and replay in a way he doesn't like
		
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please explain.  I am simply trying to make sure I get things right - many on here are asked one question about the rules and that is all that I have done.  The second point was simply a gratitude that my church choir is able to record hymns and carols for our on-line church services.  Both my potential trip to my mil and the choir were two situations where coronavirus has affected me - and I believe that that is what this thread is all about.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We will not be socialising and your characterisation as a group sing-song a church choir with individuals all facing the one direction, not mixing and standing 2m from the next member is disingenuous.  Look - I’m not organising this and our minister is a stickler for the rules. If there was any doubt about whether or not we could do this we would not be doing it - believe me.
		
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Just because the minister is a stickler for the rules it doesn’t mean he is correct in his interpratation, you have the freedom of choice to disagree with him and not attend.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Of course you're socialising, that's 100% exactly what you're doing.
All I'm doing is quoting from the link to the rules you handily posted.
It's extremely obvious.
		
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It 100% is NOT.  It is going to church AS THE RULES PERMIT.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just because the minister is a stickler for the rules it doesn’t mean he is correct in his interpratation, you have the freedom of choice to disagree with him and not attend.
		
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Correct.  As some of the more elderly members of our choir are so choosing.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We will not be socialising and your characterisation as a group sing-song a church choir with individuals all facing the one direction, not mixing and standing 2m from the next member is disingenuous.  Look - I’m not organising this and our minister is a stickler for the rules. If there was any doubt about whether or not we could do this we would not be doing it - believe me.
		
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This would suggest that you shouldn't be doing it......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55087314

Specifically the bit that says....

"Tory MP Andrew Selous - who speaks for the Church of England - said "churches and cathedrals can now approach Advent and Christmas with certainty."
*Indoor singing would be limited to formal performers,* he added, but everyone can take part outdoors."

""The further good news is that w*hile indoor singing is limited to performers only, we can all take part in outdoor and door-to-door singing*, staying two metres apart or away from the threshold, and nativity plays for under-18s are permitted in accordance with the performing arts guidance," he added. "


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			This would suggest that you shouldn't be doing it......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55087314

Specifically the bit that says....

"Tory MP Andrew Selous - who speaks for the Church of England - said "churches and cathedrals can now approach Advent and Christmas with certainty."
*Indoor singing would be limited to formal performers,* he added, but everyone can take part outdoors."

""The further good news is that w*hile indoor singing is limited to performers only, we can all take part in outdoor and door-to-door singing*, staying two metres apart or away from the threshold, and nativity plays for under-18s are permitted in accordance with the performing arts guidance," he added. "
		
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They'll be a loophole or it won't be understood


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			This would suggest that you shouldn't be doing it......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55087314

Specifically the bit that says....

"Tory MP Andrew Selous - who speaks for the Church of England - said "churches and cathedrals can now approach Advent and Christmas with certainty."
*Indoor singing would be limited to formal performers,* he added, but everyone can take part outdoors."

""The further good news is that w*hile indoor singing is limited to performers only, we can all take part in outdoor and door-to-door singing*, staying two metres apart or away from the threshold, and nativity plays for under-18s are permitted in accordance with the performing arts guidance," he added. "
		
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Our choir comprises a formal set of performers. We will not be socialising or mingling in any way. Our access to the sanctuary will be controlled, cleaning our hands as we enter, and we will have an individualised allocated spot/seat marked on the floor where we must stand and sit. We wear face coverings throughout; will not gather together at any time closer than the social distancing rules permit and will leave the building immediately we have finished.  And the doors of the church will be wide open throughout so it’ll be drafty and cold.

We are doing this - not so much for the enjoyment of the choir - that enjoyment is going to be limited by the circumstances -  but so that we can create a ‘soundtrack‘ for the on-line services for folks at home to enjoy and join in with if they wish.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			This would suggest that you shouldn't be doing it......

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55087314

Specifically the bit that says....

"Tory MP Andrew Selous - who speaks for the Church of England - said "churches and cathedrals can now approach Advent and Christmas with certainty."
*Indoor singing would be limited to formal performers,* he added, but everyone can take part outdoors."

""The further good news is that w*hile indoor singing is limited to performers only, we can all take part in outdoor and door-to-door singing*, staying two metres apart or away from the threshold, and nativity plays for under-18s are permitted in accordance with the performing arts guidance," he added. "
		
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I take my point back, your link suggests HE CAN as the choir are recording the hymns, ie only the formal performers.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			See post 11644, I've already quoted the relevant part of the rule for you.

You may go to church to worship, but you may not socialise with people outside of your household indoors.

Going with your wife for some prayer, or chat with the minister re spiritual stuff, is worship.
Arranging to meet a group of other people who you don't live with for an organised sing song is socialising, and is specifically mentioned.
		
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See Colchesters post. Choirs are allowed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			See post 11644, I've already quoted the relevant part of the rule for you.

You may go to church to worship, but you may not socialise with people outside of your household indoors.

Going with your wife for some prayer, or chat with the minister re spiritual stuff, is worship.
Arranging to meet a group of other people who you don't live with for an organised sing song is socialising, and is specifically mentioned.
		
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imight suggest your understanding of worship is narrow.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 28, 2020)

All rather hinges upon the definition of "formal performers".

Similar to debate over golf practice or playing golf and, of course,  as some on here have said we shouldn't be looking for our activities to be seen or treated differently to all others.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			See Colchesters post. Choirs are allowed.
		
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Depends on whether choir members are classed as "formal performers" or not. My take on it would be that a "formal performer" would be a paid singer rather than a group of amateurs getting together in a choir for a sing song. But that's just my opinion on it and how I'm reading the rules. I would also suggest that getting together as part of a choir would class as "socialising with others" which is banned indoors.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depends on whether choir members are classed as "formal performers" or not. My take on it would be that a "formal performer" would be a paid singer rather than a group of amateurs getting together in a choir for a sing song. But that's just my opinion on it and how I'm reading the rules. I would also suggest that getting together as part of a choir would class as "socialising with others" which is banned indoors.
		
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Ok then - that definition of ‘formal’ is of course nonsense as I can’t recall us ever paying anyone to put on any form of performance singing, spoken or acted at church - but ok I’ll join in the fun - let’s just say that we each of us members of the choir get paid in kind by the thanks of others. Or maybe we each get given (paid) 1p as we leave. That makes us all ’formal’ performers?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depends on whether choir members are classed as "formal performers" or not. My take on it would be that a "formal performer" would be a paid singer rather than a group of amateurs getting together in a choir for a sing song. But that's just my opinion on it and how I'm reading the rules. I would also suggest that getting together as part of a choir would class as "socialising with others" which is banned indoors.
		
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😂😂 Sorry mate, let’s just accept they can sing, they are the “choir” for that place of worship, not just a group deciding to get together for a one off.

If he’d suggested a group of strangers getting together I’d agree.

The link you posted is from the HoC announcement yesterday, it’s quite clear on what’s allowed and singing as an organised choir is not socialising.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			😂😂 Sorry mate, let’s just accept they can sing, they are the “choir” for that place of worship, not just a group deciding to get together for a one off.

If he’d suggested a group of strangers getting together I’d agree.

The link you posted is from the HoC announcement yesterday, it’s quite clear on what’s allowed and singing as an organised choir is not socialising.
		
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I disagree. If others are reading it differently then that's up to them. I don't believe that his choir are formal performers. But as I said that's just my reading of the rules. 

I really don't care whether SiLH goes to sing carols or visit his MiL. It won't affect my life one jot. It's entirely up to him whether he does it or not. It's just a bit surprising how clear the rules become when they are to his benefit and how unclear they are when he wants them to be.

And as an aside my link can't be from the HoC announcement yesterday as the article is from "2 days ago".


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2020)

If musicians or singers usually form part of the act of worship that is being broadcast, they may participate but *only if they are essential to the delivery of that act of worship*. The numbers or people involved should be kept as small as possible to minimise risks and participants should follow social distancing guidance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...es-of-worship-during-the-pandemic-from-4-july

Do you really need a choir for an act of worship?  Probably not would be my thoughts, you could use existing recordings if you did.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I disagree. If others are reading it differently then that's up to them. I don't believe that his choir are formal performers. But as I said that's just my reading of the rules.

I really don't care whether SiLH goes to sing carols or visit his MiL. It won't affect my life one jot. It's entirely up to him whether he does it or not. It's just a bit surprising how clear the rules become when they are to his benefit and how unclear they are when he wants them to be.

And as an aside my link can't be from the HoC announcement yesterday as the article is from "2 days ago".
		
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Agree 100% and your second paragraph sums my feelings up. It's something others seem to be picking up as well and almost as if trying to court a response in the same way as all of the political threads


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ok then - that definition of ‘formal’ is of course nonsense as I can’t recall us ever paying anyone to put on any form of performance singing, spoken or acted at church - but ok I’ll join in the fun - let’s just say that we each of us members of the choir get paid in kind by the thanks of others. Or maybe we each get given (paid) 1p as we leave. That makes us all ’formal’ performers?
		
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Strange that you did not apply such flexibility when golf or practice was being discussed. 

Quite the reverse in fact with typically sanctimonious comments saying we should not expect our sport to be treated differently. 

Double standard spring to mind.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm with you and I think it's very obvious.

I don't actually care in real life, but purely for the sake of following the thread:

A formal performer would be someone with talent who could tell jokes, sing or saw a scantily clad young woman in half in front of the congregation.

A group of amateurs just meeting for a sing song is clearly a social gathering.
		
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Sounds like you don’t know much about amateur choirs.  Anyway I’ll repeat - we are not doing this for ourselves...we are doing it to be recorded.  There will be no socialising and no jolly sing-song. Paulj42 understands - why others choose to attack - not me, but a church choir, I will choose to not speculate upon. Out.


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## Imurg (Nov 28, 2020)

If I remember rightly, a choir singing was identified as one of the first superspreaders in America...
Maybe another case of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should "


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 28, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Strange that you did not apply such flexibility when golf or practice was being discussed.

Quite the reverse in fact with typically sanctimonious comments saying we should not expect our sport to be treated differently.

Double standard spring to mind.
		
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lol.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I disagree. If others are reading it differently then that's up to them. I don't believe that his choir are formal performers. But as I said that's just my reading of the rules.

I really don't care whether SiLH goes to sing carols or visit his MiL. It won't affect my life one jot. It's entirely up to him whether he does it or not. It's just a bit surprising how clear the rules become when they are to his benefit and how unclear they are when he wants them to be.

And as an aside my link can't be from the HoC announcement yesterday as the article is from "2 days ago".
		
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Apologies, misread 26th as 28th, anyway your link also states nativity places can take place, how many taking part in those performances will be “Formal Performers”? 😂😂

The Government has said Choirs can perform, the guidelines are clear and if his minister sticks to them then there is no issue.

People trying the “Formal Performer” card are playing the poster and YES 99% of the time he brings that on himself.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The act of getting together to sing for fun is socialising.
		
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Or a Choir who have been together for years is simply practising.😬


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2020)

Ok can we draw a line under this,

Going round in circles and no consensus being reached


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## BiMGuy (Nov 28, 2020)

Absolutely madness that a sizeable group of people can meet inside to have a sing song whatever the excuse. It's not even to worship as such. It's to record it so it can be played at another time. 

Maybe Corona Virus doesn't go to church 🤷


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Absolutely madness that a sizeable group of people can meet inside to have a sing song whatever the excuse. It's not even to worship as such. It's to record it so it can be played at another time.

Maybe Corona Virus doesn't go to church 🤷
		
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They haven’t clarified the number allowed in a choir yet, it maybe only 6 as per the rules.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 28, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Absolutely madness that a sizeable group of people can meet inside to have a sing song whatever the excuse. It's not even to worship as such. It's to record it so it can be played at another time.

*Maybe Corona Virus doesn't go to church* 🤷
		
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I don't think that's correct. I'm pretty sure that it's a Christian virus which would mean it going to church. It definitely didn't recognise Ramadan back in April/May and it didn't recognise Diwali in November. But it seems it's taking 5 days off over Xmas so is recognising a Christian festival.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2020)

Enough now guys please


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## Beezerk (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Woke up this morning to an alert on my phone saying I’ve been near someone positive and have to isolate for 9 days.

As it’s 9 days I take it that means I had the contact 5 days ago, ie, monday?

However, with my m-in-law passing away last sunday once we were home I never left the house until wednesday and I’m very confused when the contact occurred.

Yes, I will isolate, but can anyone clarify how it works as to when I could of been exposed.
		
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Sorry, late to the party on this one.
If you get a test and it's negative can't you disregard the alert?
Rings a bell somehow but I'm not 100% sure of the correct guidance.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Sorry, late to the party on this one.
If you get a test and it's negative can't you disregard the alert?
Rings a bell somehow but I'm not 100% sure of the correct guidance.
		
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I can, but without telling lies, the guidance says I should only go for a test if I develop symptoms.


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## Beezerk (Nov 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I can, but without telling lies, the guidance says I should only go for a test if I develop symptoms.

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I think a lot of people have been telling porkies to get a test lol.
My daughter had to lie to get one and she tested positive 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I think a lot of people have been telling porkies to get a test lol.
My daughter had to lie to get one and she tested positive 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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😂😂 Oh no! Poor girl, I can’t risk it, funeral next week!


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2020)

I don't care what the rules say, I have my own rules and they haven't changed much since March.
If something unnecessary increases my chance of catching the killer virus, I won't do it.
Stay at home, watch Netflix, stay safe and give the doctors and nurses a break.
Either wise we will be in the same boat this time next year.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Either wise we will be in the same boat this time next year.
		
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Sorry Bob, that's just a tad too pessimistic for my liking ...


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Sorry Bob, that's just a tad too pessimistic for my liking ... 

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I really do hope I'm wrong.
It's the anti vaxers that won't take the vaccine that worry me


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## Billysboots (Nov 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Sorry, late to the party on this one.
If you get a test and it's negative can't you disregard the alert?
Rings a bell somehow but I'm not 100% sure of the correct guidance.
		
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No. My understanding is that even if you return a negative test during your self isolation period, that period must still be seen out.

Edit: the below from the Government guidelines;

If you develop symptoms of coronavirus, other members of your household must self-isolate immediately at home for 14 days and you must get a test to check if you have coronavirus or call 119 if you have no internet access. If your test is positive, you must continue to stay at home for at least 10 days and we will get in touch to ask about your contacts since they must self-isolate. *If your test is negative, you must still complete your 14-day self-isolation period because the virus may not be detectable yet – this is crucial to avoid unknowingly spreading the virus.*


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 29, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Enough now guys please
		
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What strange time we live in when the Mods have to step in to break up a stooshie by golfers about who can or cannot sing in a church.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			No. My understanding is that even if you return a negative test during your self isolation period, that period must still be seen out.

Edit: the below from the Government guidelines;

If you develop symptoms of coronavirus, other members of your household must self-isolate immediately at home for 14 days and you must get a test to check if you have coronavirus or call 119 if you have no internet access. If your test is positive, you must continue to stay at home for at least 10 days and we will get in touch to ask about your contacts since they must self-isolate. *If your test is negative, you must still complete your 14-day self-isolation period because the virus may not be detectable yet – this is crucial to avoid unknowingly spreading the virus.*

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Those guidelines are for someone who is self-isolating or develop symptoms, mine is from the app and not even enforceable by law.🤷‍♂️ Very weird!


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## Billysboots (Nov 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Those guidelines are for someone who is self-isolating or develop symptoms, mine is from the app and not even enforceable by law.🤷‍♂️ Very weird!
		
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I see. I agree, any advice from the app is merely that - advice.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 29, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I see. I agree, any advice from the app is merely that - advice.
		
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Still best to follow though if you can imo, removes any doubt or worry.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I don't care what the rules say, I have my own rules and they haven't changed much since March.
If something unnecessary increases my chance of catching the killer virus, I won't do it.
Stay at home, watch Netflix, stay safe and give the doctors and nurses a break.
Either wise we will be in the same boat this time next year.
		
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You see Bob that’s the difference between you me and other folk. You know the rules and think they may be lapse. So I pose stricter rules upon yourself. Like me ,you are adamant that catching Covid is not a good idea.
Others see the rules as guidelines which don’t have to be adhered to If it suits ones agenda.
Am sure we will be in the same boat, just the seas will not be as rough.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 29, 2020)

[QUOTE="bobmac, post: 2268833, member: 1739"*]I really do hope I'm wrong*.
It's the anti vaxers that won't take the vaccine that worry me[/QUOTE]
So do I, so do I.

At least you're in the nice  position that you'll be happy if you're wrong. Whereas those who think it will be over sooner, will be cheesed off if they ard wrong ..


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			You see Bob that’s the difference between you me and other folk. You know the rules and think they may be lapse. So I pose stricter rules upon yourself. Like me ,you are adamant that catching Covid is not a good idea.
Others see the rules as guidelines which don’t have to be adhered to If it suits ones agenda.
Am sure we will be in the same boat, just the seas will not be as rough.
		
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Very strange because I’m sure right at the start of all this you were very flippant about it all to the point you even went on a holiday when others decided to cancel - you didn’t seem to be too bothered about the virus more about sunning yourself on beach 🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 29, 2020)

Guys , we need to stop these little digs at each other .

Let’s be nice 👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			[QUOTE="bobmac, post: 2268833, member: 1739"*]I really do hope I'm wrong*.
It's the anti vaxers that won't take the vaccine that worry me
		
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So do I, so do I.

At least you're in the nice  position that you'll be happy if you're wrong. Whereas those who think it will be over sooner, will be cheesed off if they ard wrong ..[/QUOTE]

They will I believe have to come up with rules in regards the Vaccine- I don’t see how they can make it compulsory but they just provide restrictions on people who don’t have the vaccine - can’t fly , go on public transport, work don’t allow them to attend etc


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## Del_Boy (Nov 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			please explain.  I am simply trying to make sure I get things right - many on here are asked one question about the rules and that is all that I have done.  The second point was simply a gratitude that my church choir is able to record hymns and carols for our on-line church services.  Both my potential trip to my mil and the choir were two situations where coronavirus has affected me - and I believe that that is what this thread is all about.
		
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Re the trip to your MIL I don’t think you have advised if there is a need for both you and your wife to go


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So do I, so do I.

At least you're in the nice  position that you'll be happy if you're wrong. Whereas those who think it will be over sooner, will be cheesed off if they ard wrong ..
		
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They will I believe have to come up with rules in regards the Vaccine- I don’t see how they can make it compulsory but they just provide restrictions on people who don’t have the vaccine - can’t fly , go on public transport, work don’t allow them to attend etc[/QUOTE]

Get what you are saying and I agree. However, the things those who don't vaccinate can/cannot do have to be practical. How people getting on a train or bus can be known to be vaccinated or not is impossible to determine.
OTOH, catch Covid and want treatment, then if not vaccinated, ( by refusing it) , and its on your NHS records, then go and take the paracetamol etc and don't clog up the NHS .


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2020)

Anti-vaxxers are a problem, although there are really not that many of them (I mean full blown believers that vacc causes autism, Bill Gates putting 5G nanobots, etc). There are quite a few people who have read that the vacc development programmes have been rushed. They mostly don't understand how development moved fast (lots of money, stuff happening in parallel rather than series, genomics, Govt support, intense competition). Some of them will be persuadable once a few of their friends have been vacc'd without any problems. 

There are also people who reckon that the benefit-risk for them personally supports waiting a while. In a sense, the Govt policy agrees with them, so if a 30 year old in good health said to me that they weren't sure and preferred to wait, I would tell them that is a rational and reasonable position. 

One wrinkle will be travel and work. It seems likely that places currently requiring a negative PCR test will add certification of vacc as acceptable for entry. In some ways, it is more reliable. So the anti-vaxxers may not be going to Majorca next summer. There is no reason that asthmatics and autistics can't get vacc'd so exemptions certificates should not apply. And NHS workers and lots of other customer-facing jobs will likely require vacc to stay in work.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I don't care what the rules say, I have my own rules and they haven't changed much since March.
If something unnecessary increases my chance of catching the killer virus, I won't do it.
Stay at home, watch Netflix, stay safe and give the doctors and nurses a break.
Either wise we will be in the same boat this time next year.
		
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Sorry Bob but (correct me if I'm wrong) you are in a position where that stance is sustainable? (Retired I think?)

Lot of people still have to go work or take the kids to school...

ATM that's the 2 things I leave house for. Well that and picking up click and collect shopping

I will however go golf from weds as it's outdoors and I need the exercise

No more risky than my other activities as I am far from people and outside where as work I'm in a control room with 9 other people and air con that recirculates air


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2020)

Del_Boy said:



			Re the trip to your MIL I don’t think you have advised if there is a need for both you and your wife to go
		
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There was only a ‘need‘ as we were going to drive up and back in the one day - it’s too far for my wife to drive there and back herself - in any case by mrs has now decided that we are not now going to go up before the Christmas break and will try and sort out an alternative for mil and BiL prior to going up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 29, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			They will I believe have to come up with rules in regards the Vaccine- I don’t see how they can make it compulsory but they just provide restrictions on people who don’t have the vaccine - can’t fly , go on public transport, work don’t allow them to attend etc
		
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Get what you are saying and I agree. However, the things those who don't vaccinate can/cannot do have to be practical. How people getting on a train or bus can be known to be vaccinated or not is impossible to determine.
OTOH, catch Covid and want treatment, then if not vaccinated, ( by refusing it) , and its on your NHS records, then go and take the paracetamol etc and don't clog up the NHS .[/QUOTE]
How about add something to the NHS app that shows green after the vaccine, stays red if you haven't had it? To access public transport, shops, flights etc you have to show the green sign on the app.


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Get what you are saying and I agree. However, the things those who don't vaccinate can/cannot do have to be practical. How people getting on a train or bus can be known to be vaccinated or not is impossible to determine.
OTOH, catch Covid and want treatment, then if not vaccinated, ( by refusing it) , and its on your NHS records, then go and take the paracetamol etc and don't clog up the NHS .
		
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How about add something to the NHS app that shows green after the vaccine, stays red if you haven't had it? To access public transport, shops, flights etc you have to show the green sign on the app.[/QUOTE]

I doubt proof of vacc would be needed to get on a bus, the London tube etc, but it will be required for air-travel. Several airlines have already said they need tests, and they will almost certainly extend that to include vacc'd people, and inevitably the rest will follow. Will also probably be required by immigration abroad. The NHS App could be used as a certificate but not everybody has it or wants it, so a credit card sized piece of paper with a QR code would probably be needed too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2020)

Been having the what do we do about Christmas bubble discussion this morning.  In many ways no three household Christmas bubble would have made things so much easier - because now that we have it we feel a bit of pressure from both children and mil for them to be in our 3 household bubble.  And though there will not be any occasion when all four households would be together inside at any one time - that is irrelevant - - we’d be a four household bubble and that ain’t permitted - a quart don’t fit into a pint pot.  So we have to decide who misses out. Or we all miss out. Which in some ways would have been a bit less painful.

You just know that very many families are just not going to bother sticking with the 3 household limit. Many will simply consider the 3 limit as the number allowed together at any one time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			How about add something to the NHS app that shows green after the vaccine, stays red if you haven't had it? To access public transport, shops, flights etc you have to show the green sign on the app.
		
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I doubt proof of vacc would be needed to get on a bus, the London tube etc, but it will be required for air-travel. Several airlines have already said they need tests, and they will almost certainly extend that to include vacc'd people, and inevitably the rest will follow. Will also probably be required by immigration abroad. The NHS App could be used as a certificate but not everybody has it or wants it, so a credit card sized piece of paper with a QR code would probably be needed too.[/QUOTE]
Air travel will be an obvious one. Public transport is something that may have to think about over time, as will shops, pubs etc. If it means a reduction in social distancing and the ability to mix again all of these businesses will be very keen for this.

How they do it? Probably a mixture of options as you suggest. If it's the difference between staying as you are or getting back to life as normal people will likely accept whatever is necessary.


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## Slab (Nov 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Been having the what do we do about Christmas bubble discussion this morning.  In many ways no three household Christmas bubble would have made things so much easier - because now that we have it we feel a bit of pressure from both children and mil for them to be in our 3 household bubble.  And though there will not be any occasion when all four households would be together inside at any one time - that is irrelevant - - we’d be a four household bubble and that ain’t permitted - a quart don’t fit into a pint pot.  So we have to decide who misses out. Or we all miss out. Which in some ways would have been a bit less painful.

You just know that very many families are just not going to bother sticking with the 3 household limit. Many will simply consider the 3 limit as the number allowed together at any one time.
		
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Nothing will ever be seen as fair by whoever 'misses out' so I can only suggest some kind of raffle ticket or prize draw/tombola to decide


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## anotherdouble (Nov 29, 2020)

Slab said:



			Nothing will ever be seen as fair by whoever 'misses out' so I can only suggest some kind of raffle ticket or prize draw/tombola to decide
		
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Putt out. 3 nearest the pin has turkey and the trimmings and the one furthest away stays at home 👍


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry Bob but (correct me if I'm wrong) you are in a position where that stance is sustainable? (Retired I think?)

Lot of people still have to go work or take the kids to school...

ATM that's the 2 things I leave house for. Well that and picking up click and collect shopping

I will however go golf from weds as it's outdoors and I need the exercise

No more risky than my other activities as I am far from people and outside where as work I'm in a control room with 9 other people and air con that recirculates air
		
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Of course, you are correct. I,m in the same position as Bob, and I have the same outlook, and I don't put myself in harms way much.
It is a luxury, I know, that many others don't have.
And it must be very difficult for a lot of people, especially economically .
But  I note that Bob made the point,which is not to do anything unnecessary which risks catching the virus, and that is something we all can do, and really ought to do, in order to help the NHS, the Drs and nurses, who are at the sharp end of this.
As it happens, I spoke today to an ex colleagues wife , their daughter is a Sister on Covid ward. Her vital job requires her to shower 5 times a day.
Perhaps we should all think a little more about what some people are doing every day to help us. And how it would help them to do it, if we did less of what we wanted to do if it carried unnecessary risk.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2020)

Slab said:



			Nothing will ever be seen as fair by whoever 'misses out' so I can only suggest some kind of raffle ticket or prize draw/tombola to decide
		
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Sorted. Our lad has decided he’ll be the one left out. He’s ok with that and we’ve also decided to not include MiL in our bubble to minimise the risk to her (she doesn’t know that yet) and to enable us to Christmas at home and include our daughter in our bubble (she lives 2miles from us) plus also her b/fs parents as household #3. Where there‘s a will...


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorted. Our lad has decided he’ll be the one left out. He’s ok with that and we’ve also decided to not include MiL in our bubble to minimise the risk to her (she doesn’t know that yet)
		
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We can all sleep well now then!!!!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorted. Our lad has decided he’ll be the one left out. He’s ok with that and we’ve also decided to not include MiL in our bubble to minimise the risk to her (she doesn’t know that yet) and to enable us to Christmas at home and include our daughter in our bubble (she lives 2miles from us) plus also her b/fs parents as household #3. Where there‘s a will...
		
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The one thing that strikes me about Xmas arrangements is that you've got to really trust the other two families that are in your bubble. This isn't having a go at or questioning your bubble at all SiLH but a general comment. It's all well and good being in a bubble with two other families as long as those other two families aren't also meeting with other families outside of that. 

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone in your bubble would do this but there will certainly be some that will.


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## Fish (Nov 29, 2020)

Supposed to be playing Nefyn next Sunday, but this is worrying, I didn't know or realise there was an embargo about traveling into Wales?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/welsh...gr7E1yZMTi4jZXUTSyB0VOLAw8Oy2vsUDz5c6fMTqRy4c


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## Leftitshort (Nov 29, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Of course, you are correct. I,m in the same position as Bob, and I have the same outlook, and I don't put myself in harms way much.
It is a luxury, I know, that many others don't have.
And it must be very difficult for a lot of people, especially economically .
But  I note that Bob made the point,which is not to do anything unnecessary which risks catching the virus, and that is something we all can do, and really ought to do, in order to help the NHS, the Drs and nurses, who are at the sharp end of this.
As it happens, I spoke today to an ex colleagues wife , their daughter is a Sister on Covid ward. Her vital job requires her to shower 5 times a day.
Perhaps we should all think a little more about what some people are doing every day to help us. And how it would help them to do it, if we did less of what we wanted to do if it carried unnecessary risk.
		
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Everything we do carries an risk necessary or otherwise. Rather than clapping for them, or thinking about them, why don’t we fund them properly and pay them a decent wage? Maybe we should have thought about them more during the last 10 years of austerity?


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## Billysboots (Nov 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			The one thing that strikes me about Xmas arrangements is that you've got to really trust the other two families that are in your bubble. This isn't having a go at or questioning your bubble at all SiLH but a general comment. It's all well and good being in a bubble with two other families as long as those other two families aren't also meeting with other families outside of that.

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone in your bubble would do this but there will certainly be some that will.
		
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Absolutely spot on. My 83 year old mum lives on her own and is “bubbled” with us. Time and time and time again these last few months she has shown either a lack of understanding or a disregard for guidance.

I’ve just come off the phone to her and asked what her plans are for tomorrow. A quiet day in store she said. Apart from a friend coming for coffee in the morning and another one popping over in the afternoon. She thinks that’s fine if they socially distance. I’m sick of trying to get the message through to her.

Part of me gets it. She’s 83 and doesn’t want to live her last years in total isolation. But equally I’m in no rush to place my own family in harm’s way by visiting someone who doesn’t follow guidance. Consequently, despite being “bubbled” with her, I am now keeping her at arm’s length.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			Supposed to be playing Nefyn next Sunday, but this is worrying, I didn't know or realise there was an embargo about traveling into Wales?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/welsh...gr7E1yZMTi4jZXUTSyB0VOLAw8Oy2vsUDz5c6fMTqRy4c

Click to expand...

As we are currently in a lockdown in England then surely people can only travel due to essential journeys - hence why people who have memberships at Welsh Clubs shouldnt really be travelling there 

And Wales are prob going into another lockdown of sorts

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ive-wales-lockdown-national-covid-4743085.amp


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Everything we do carries an risk necessary or otherwise. Rather than clapping for them, or thinking about them, why don’t we fund them properly and pay them a decent wage?
		
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I can only speak from a nursing perspective but if you talk to anyone in the NHS involved in direct patient care, it is the one thing that still wrangles and the small rises we've had are still behind inflation and feel paltry. Of course you can make a direct argument for the police and fire service, ambulance service etc as well. I doubt after all this anything will change though


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## Fish (Nov 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As we are currently in a lockdown in England then surely people can only travel due to essential journeys - hence why people who have memberships at Welsh Clubs shouldnt really be travelling there

And Wales are prob going into another lockdown of sorts

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ive-wales-lockdown-national-covid-4743085.amp

Click to expand...

A quote from a message received from my away club, Woodhall Spa immediately after the tiers were announced.

_As previously, there are no restrictions with regard to travelling for outdoor sport from any tier, so all our member categories are welcome, regardless of their home address._

So I can travel to any arranged sporting event, but I wasn't aware that Wales was different, I thought it was a UK legislation!

I wonder how many people that live close to borders are travelling across them into Wales & Scotland to play?


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## upsidedown (Nov 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			A quote from a message received from my away club, Woodhall Spa immediately after the tiers were announced.

_As previously, there are no restrictions with regard to travelling for outdoor sport from any tier, so all our member categories are welcome, regardless of their home address._

So I can travel to any arranged sporting event, but I wasn't aware that Wales was different, I thought it was a UK legislation!

I wonder how many people that live close to borders are travelling across them into Wales & Scotland to play?
		
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https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-wales-stop-110-drivers-19366151


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## Fish (Nov 29, 2020)

upsidedown said:



https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/police-wales-stop-110-drivers-19366151

Click to expand...

I linked to something similar in my first post Ben.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			A quote from a message received from my away club, Woodhall Spa immediately after the tiers were announced.

_As previously, there are no restrictions with regard to travelling for outdoor sport from any tier, so all our member categories are welcome, regardless of their home address._

So I can travel to any arranged sporting event, but I wasn't aware that Wales was different, I thought it was a UK legislation!

I wonder how many people that live close to borders are travelling across them into Wales & Scotland to play?
		
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The initial guidelines going between tiers was stating that travel to a different tier was only for essential reasons but this is for going to Tier 3 

“Avoid travel to or overnight stays in tier 3 areas other than where necessary,” read the guidelines.  

And going from Tier 3

“Avoid travelling to other parts of the UK, including for overnight stays other than where necessary,” reads the advice.


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## upsidedown (Nov 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			I linked to something similar in my first post Ben.
		
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Sorry missed that 😉👍


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Everything we do carries an risk necessary or otherwise. Rather than clapping for them, or thinking about them, why don’t we fund them properly and pay them a decent wage? Maybe we should have thought about them more during the last 10 years of austerity?
		
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I'm not suggesting NHS staff shouldn't be well paid but are they poorly paid?  I believe there was a new pay system brought in for Nurses a few years ago that gave some fair increases.

What do you suggest the overall package for an average Nurse should be?


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## Leftitshort (Nov 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not suggesting NHS staff shouldn't be well paid but are they poorly paid?  I believe there was a new pay system brought in for Nurses a few years ago that gave some fair increases.

What do you suggest the overall package for an average Nurse should be?
		
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Depends if you put a premium on revenue generation or life saving. £24k for being at the sharp end of the pandemic sounds like a bargain if it’s the former


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Depends if you put a premium on revenue generation or life saving. £24k for being at the sharp end of the pandemic sounds like a bargain if it’s the former
		
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I asked what you consider a reasonable wage for the average nurse, not a new starter.


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## Fish (Nov 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The initial guidelines going between tiers was stating that travel to a different tier was only for essential reasons but this is for going to Tier 3

“Avoid travel to or overnight stays in tier 3 areas other than where necessary,” read the guidelines. 

And going from Tier 3

“Avoid travelling to other parts of the UK, including for overnight stays other than where necessary,” reads the advice.
		
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So drop Woodhall Spa a line and tell them their wrong!


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## Leftitshort (Nov 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I asked what you consider a reasonable wage for the average nurse, not a new starter.
		
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 what difference does it make what I consider? Based on qualifications, responsibility etc considerably more than £28k, which google tells me is the average wage. Interrogate that


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 29, 2020)

Nurses are band 5 as as start https://www.nhsemployers.org/pay-pensions-and-reward/agenda-for-change/pay-scales/annual

Long climb to the the top of the scale (and a lot of additional training on the job once you qualify) and that's an awful lot of patients to be looking after, usually 1-2-1 in ICU


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			what difference does it make what I consider? Based on qualifications, responsibility etc considerably more than £28k, which google tells me is the average wage. Interrogate that
		
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If you think they are underpaid then you must have an idea what you believe they should be paid, after all you are the one suggesting it's too low.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nurses are band 5 as as start https://www.nhsemployers.org/pay-pensions-and-reward/agenda-for-change/pay-scales/annual

Long climb to the the top of the scale (and a lot of additional training on the job once you qualify) and that's an awful lot of patients to be looking after, usually 1-2-1 in ICU
		
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What you say is correct Homer. What I'm trying to find out is what should a good wage for an average Nurse be.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If you think they are underpaid then you must have an idea what you believe they should be paid, after all you are the one suggesting it's too low.
		
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Read my post....considerably more than 28k. You going to add anything?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Read my post....considerably more than 28k. You going to add anything?
		
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You're being somewhat obtuse. If you believe something is undervalued you must know what the true value should be. I'm not the one suggesting the average Nurse is underpaid.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			So drop Woodhall Spa a line and tell them their wrong!
		
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Why would I drop them a line ? 

The guidelines are on the government website - if you are still in Coventry you are in Tier 3 these are the guidelines for travel.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-restriction-tiers-what-you-need-to-know

avoid travelling to other parts of the UK, including for overnight stays other than where necessary, such as for work, education, youth services, to receive medical treatment, or because of caring responsibilities. You can travel through other areas as part of a longer journey


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## Leftitshort (Nov 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You're being somewhat obtuse. If you believe something is undervalued you must know what the true value should be. I'm not the one suggesting the average Nurse is underpaid.
		
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 I’ve noticed from your previous postings, your seem to thrive on on-line confrontation, and yet are quick to take offence. It’s a real passive aggressive paradox. You’ve adding nothing.


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## DanFST (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Read my post....considerably more than 28k.
		
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What do you actually think they should be paid?


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## Leftitshort (Nov 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			What do you actually think they should be paid?
		
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Is there an echo??? You really want to know.
Rough calculations are that as a starting wage they are approx 20% behind the average graduate...with significantly more responsibilities. If you do the maths that’s £29k starting salary. Average architect salary is £60k, I’ve never needed an architect, I’ve needed a nurse. So a qualified, experienced nurse £60k. Enough figures for you?
It clearly won’t happen as we can’t afford it, but I would say a fully resourced, funded motivated NHS is more important  than a poorly planned lockdown in times of global pandemic. Then those currently paralysed by fear my have some hope....Just my opinion
anything to add?


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## DanFST (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Is there an echo??? You really want to know.
Rough calculations are that as a starting wage they are approx 20% behind the average graduate...with significantly more responsibilities. If you do the maths that’s £29k starting salary. Average architect salary is £60k, I’ve never needed an architect, I’ve needed a nurse. So a qualified, experienced nurse £60k. Enough figures for you?
It clearly won’t happen as we can’t afford it, but I would say a fully resourced, funded motivated NHS is more important  than a poorly planned lockdown in times of global pandemic. Then those currently paralysed by fear my have some hope....Just my opinion
anything to add?
		
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And you are calling someone else passive aggressive? Christ.

I do think they are underpaid, but almost 700k nurses indicates that people are still willing to work. However i would chuck them up to 33k (average wage) with generous specialised taxing and make sure all stupid costs were eliminated IE: parking and paying for meals when working.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			And you are calling someone else passive aggressive? Christ.

I do think they are underpaid, but almost 700k nurses indicates that people are still willing to work. However i would chuck them up to 33k (average wage) with generous specialised taxing and make sure all stupid costs were eliminated IE: parking and paying for meals when working.
		
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I’m not passive, just aggressive 🤣🤣🤣


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m not passive, just aggressive 🤣🤣🤣
		
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Time to change your name then..


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## Fish (Nov 29, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			You can still go to wales. It says avoid. Not “you must not” or “cannot” go.
		
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But the police are stopping cars and fining people traveling into Wales!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			The one thing that strikes me about Xmas arrangements is that you've got to really trust the other two families that are in your bubble. This isn't having a go at or questioning your bubble at all SiLH but a general comment. It's all well and good being in a bubble with two other families as long as those other two families aren't also meeting with other families outside of that.

Again, I'm not suggesting anyone in your bubble would do this but there will certainly be some that will.
		
Click to expand...

That’s right.  And it is one of our considerations. I can imagine Three households gatherings together for Christmas lunch then on Boxing day one or more of these households meeting up with another household.  And we can’t do that. Its not our situation as my daughters b/fs family will not be meeting with any others over the Christmas break and so they can in effect be one of our three households - and us of theirs.  But this has required disappointing  ‘sacrifice‘ and difficult choices being make.


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## PieMan (Nov 29, 2020)

fundy said:



			enjoy your break Robin
		
Click to expand...

But maybe not to Nefyn....... 😉 😂 😂


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 29, 2020)

Fish said:



			But the police are stopping cars and fining people traveling into Wales!
		
Click to expand...

That’s because currently we are in lockdown, next week we are not. Advised against next week. Not banned. 

Just no pubs! Which might be a good thing! 🤣


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We can all sleep well now then!!!!

Click to expand...

I wasn’t expecting anyone to lose any sleep over it - other than my wife! 🙄


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 30, 2020)

Thread reopened after a bit of a spat last night

How about we stop trying to pick each other to bits 👍


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## Tashyboy (Nov 30, 2020)

[


Fish said:



			But the police are stopping cars and fining people traveling into Wales!
		
Click to expand...

especially those that drive from Essex to wales to drop off essential Christmas presents 🤨


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## Tashyboy (Nov 30, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread reopened after a bit of a spat last night

How about we stop trying to pick each other to bits 👍
		
Click to expand...

A spat on the forum, who would of thought that. About time you started working part time Fragger so you can spend more time policing the “ Grown ups”.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I can only speak from a nursing perspective but if you talk to anyone in the NHS involved in direct patient care, it is the one thing that still wrangles and the small rises we've had are still behind inflation and feel paltry. Of course you can make a direct argument for the police and fire service, ambulance service etc as well. I doubt after all this anything will change though
		
Click to expand...

...thinking about ICU/ITU nursing capacity to cope if things don't go well over the coming couple of months (to early Feb) and beyond - in the months over the summer when the pressure on the hospitals dropped has your trust (or other trusts yo know) been training return-to-work nurses and non-ICU/ITU nurses to look after Covid patients in an ICU/ITU context?  One of the concerns I'm hearing at the moment is that it's OK for the Nightingale hospitals to be ready to be re-activated - but if the additional staff to run them and care for patients isn't there then we will be back to pulling staff from other disciplines and aspects of critical care - and that surely has to be avoided.

So looking specifically at London being in Tier2 from 2nd Dec.  Now that may well be down to the hospital capacity being available across London - as the huge docklands Nightingale Hospital is still there - but if the staff has to be drawn from across London's hospitals as it was, then the fact of the additional capacity becomes less significant in determining tier, almost besides the point...?

In truth I am expecting that such training to have been happening...I certainly hope so.  Getting ahead of things just in case.


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## patricks148 (Nov 30, 2020)

not me as such but a couple of Guys i know who play at Gullane and live in Edinburgh have been told by the club they cannot travel there to play if you are outside the 5 miles. they are in T3 and Gullane T2


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## IanM (Nov 30, 2020)

First Minister's mum celebrating some good news on St Andrews Day!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2020)

DanFST said:



			And you are calling someone else passive aggressive? Christ.

I do think they are underpaid, but almost 700k nurses indicates that people are still willing to work. However i would chuck them up to 33k (average wage) with generous specialised taxing and make sure all stupid costs were eliminated IE: parking and paying for meals when working.
		
Click to expand...

Looking on the GOV website the average is around £34k

I do agree with your point about Parking and Meals.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 30, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



*Everything we do carries an risk necessary or otherwise.* Rather than clapping for them, or thinking about them, why don’t we fund them properly and pay them a decent wage? Maybe we should have thought about them more during the last 10 years of austerity?
		
Click to expand...

The parts not in bold I would agree with ( though how my post is connected to those sentiments,I'm not sure about)
The comment in bold however is obviously a true statement in itself , but as a reply to my post , it seems it is made to rebut my plea for people not to take unnecessary risks re Covid.
Is it?
And if so, what is your case for people to take *unnecessary *risks (with themselves and thus others they may meet  )about contracting Covid?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depends on whether choir members are classed as "formal performers" or not. My take on it would be that a "formal performer" would be a paid singer rather than a group of amateurs getting together in a choir for a sing song. But that's just my opinion on it and how I'm reading the rules. I would also suggest that getting together as part of a choir would class as "socialising with others" which is banned indoors.
		
Click to expand...

I'm man enough to hold my hands up when I get something wrong. Apologies for the Daily Mail link but this clears up the matter (assuming it's correct) and my original take on it was wrong. Looks like SiLH and Paul were correct.

"*Can you sing carols in church?

No, unless you are in a choir.* Government guidance, published on Sunday to cover the Christmas period,* allows indoor singing when England's national lockdown ends on Wednesday, but only by choirs and with no audience participation.*

Indoor singing by professional and amateur choirs can take place according to the particular area's tier, but audiences or congregations are not to join in 'any activity that can create aerosols, including singing, shouting and chanting'."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9000527/Christmas-UK-sing-carols-trains-running.html


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm man enough to hold my hands up when I get something wrong. Apologies for the Daily Mail link but this clears up the matter (assuming it's correct) and my original take on it was wrong. Looks like SiLH and Paul were correct.

"*Can you sing carols in church?*

*No, unless you are in a choir.* Government guidance, published on Sunday to cover the Christmas period,* allows indoor singing when England's national lockdown ends on Wednesday, but only by choirs and with no audience participation.*

Indoor singing by professional and amateur choirs can take place according to the particular area's tier, but audiences or congregations are not to join in 'any activity that can create aerosols, including singing, shouting and chanting'."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9000527/Christmas-UK-sing-carols-trains-running.html

Click to expand...

Just different ways of interpreting what was published etc, 

I’m sure everyone else who doubted us or “liked” the opposing posts will be along soon to give silh and his choir best wishes for the festive season.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 30, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The parts not in bold I would agree with ( though how my post is connected to those sentiments,I'm not sure about)
The comment in bold however is obviously a true statement in itself , but as a reply to my post , it seems it is made to rebut my plea for people not to take unnecessary risks re Covid.
Is it?
And if so, what is your case for people to take *unnecessary *risks (with themselves and thus others they may meet  )about contracting Covid?
		
Click to expand...

Depends on your definition of unnecessary. On Saturday I’m off to the golf club, I’m allowed to, is it necessary? 
It might be


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## Old Skier (Nov 30, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Depends on your definition of unnecessary. On Saturday I’m off to the golf club, I’m allowed to, is it necessary?
It might be
		
Click to expand...

Been on a zoom with the local MP. First question - can the shoot go ahead


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Just different ways of interpreting what was published etc,

I’m sure everyone else who doubted us or “liked” the opposing posts will be along soon to give silh and his choir best wishes for the festive season.

Click to expand...

Yep, absolutely. My best wishes go to SiLH, and his choir, for the festive season and their church services during that time.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 30, 2020)

S


SocketRocket said:



			Looking on the GOV website the average is around £34k

I do agree with your point about Parking and Meals.
		
Click to expand...

Plus shift allowance on that and you might get a fair figure

Free parking, discount meals


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			S


Plus shift allowance on that and you might get a fair figure

Free parking, discount meals
		
Click to expand...

Enhanced pay for unsociable hours – between 30% and 60% above standard rate for night shifts, weekends and bank holidays


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## pauljames87 (Dec 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Enhanced pay for unsociable hours – between 30% and 60% above standard rate for night shifts, weekends and bank holidays
		
Click to expand...

Indeed that should be on top of a basic 34. Then they might just start to be fairly paid.


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## bobmac (Dec 1, 2020)

Oh well, I can only hope that some readers got the point I was trying to make about mental health and boredom before the pedants started bickering.




Leftitshort said:



			Without being unduly flippant (unlike your reply) thats unfortunately *an occupational hazard*.
		
Click to expand...

So Joe blogs is bored at home getting paid to watch telly. He then plays the 'mental health' card to justify going out, catches the virus and ends up dying in an ICU.
No thought given to the mental health of the doctors and nurses who have to clear up the mess and to say it's just part of their job is just pathetic in my opinion.
And for those of you who may have missed my earlier post.....

_''To those who are planning to make *unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc* over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.'' _


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## bluewolf (Dec 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Oh well, I can only hope that some readers got the point I was trying to make about mental health and boredom before the pedants started bickering.




So Joe blogs is bored at home getting paid to watch telly. He then plays the 'mental health' card to justify going out, catches the virus and ends up dying in an ICU.
No thought given to the mental health of the doctors and nurses who have to clear up the mess and to say it's just part of their job is just pathetic in my opinion.
And for those of you who may have missed my earlier post.....

_''To those who are planning to make *unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc* over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.'' _

Click to expand...

So just to confirm...

Unless you have something essential to do, don’t leave the house?

Is that what you’re saying?


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## bobmac (Dec 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			So just to confirm...

Unless you have something essential to do, don’t leave the house?

Is that what you’re saying?
		
Click to expand...

That's my thinking yes.
I know and understand that lots of people have to leave their house for many different reasons but I will keep my contact with other people to the bare minimum until this pandemic starts to ease.


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## bluewolf (Dec 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			That's my thinking yes.
I know and understand that lots of people have to leave their house for many different reasons but I will keep my contact with other people to the bare minimum until this pandemic starts to ease.
		
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And that is absolutely your choice 👍

Unfortunately, if we all make the same choice then there won’t be a country for us to emerge into. 

And trust me. No one wants to protect the Nurses of the NHS more than I do. Who’s going to make my tea and look after the kids if mine goes? 😉


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## BiMGuy (Dec 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Oh well, I can only hope that some readers got the point I was trying to make about mental health and boredom before the pedants started bickering.




So Joe blogs is bored at home getting paid to watch telly. He then plays the 'mental health' card to justify going out, catches the virus and ends up dying in an ICU.
No thought given to the mental health of the doctors and nurses who have to clear up the mess and to say it's just part of their job is just pathetic in my opinion.
And for those of you who may have missed my earlier post.....

_''To those who are planning to make *unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc* over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.'' _

Click to expand...

When does the health and wellbeing of one group of people take priority over another group? And who decides?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 1, 2020)

Just back from collecting my son from school. One of his Year 2 classamates has tested positive so back into isolation for the second time since September and we have well below average infection rates locally.....

Thats me home schooling tomorrow instead of of teeing off at 9-30. As tomorrow is also the last of my rest days this I will need to take Thursday and Friday off work since my wife is a Teacher. No sleep on after 12 nights on Sunday beckons as well, fantastic


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 1, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Just back from collecting my son from school. One of his Year 2 classamates has tested positive so back into isolation for the second time since September and we have well below average infection rates locally.....

*Thats me home schooling tomorrow instead of of teeing off at 9-30*. As tomorrow is also the last of my rest days this I will need to take Thursday and Friday off work since my wife is a Teacher. No sleep on after 12 nights on Sunday beckons as well, fantastic 

Click to expand...

Or he could caddy and you could teach as you walk round . There has to be some collective knowledge in your group that could be passed on, mustn't there?

A few of the schools in my town have reduced the bubble size to avoid the constant closing of whole classes. Classes are broken into smaller groups and only those in that group have to isolate if one goes positive. It has been a very succesful move.


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## GB72 (Dec 1, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Or he could caddy and you could teach as you walk round . There has to be some collective knowledge in your group that could be passed on, mustn't there?

A few of the schools in my town have reduced the bubble size to avoid the constant closing of whole classes. Classes are broken into smaller groups and only those in that group have to isolate if one goes positive. It has been a very succesful move.
		
Click to expand...

The private schools around me are all calling it quits for the term at the end of next week. Finishing a week early on 11th with online teaching for the last week of the term. Seems like a decent idea to me, if families are going to be mixing over Xmas, get the kids out of school 2 weeks before hand so as they can at least semi isolate for a bit and lower the risk of spreading.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Oh well, I can only hope that some readers got the point I was trying to make about mental health and boredom before the pedants started bickering.




So Joe blogs is bored at home getting paid to watch telly. He then plays the 'mental health' card to justify going out, catches the virus and ends up dying in an ICU.
No thought given to the mental health of the doctors and nurses who have to clear up the mess and to say it's just part of their job is just pathetic in my opinion.
And for those of you who may have missed my earlier post.....

_''To those who are planning to make *unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc* over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.'' _

Click to expand...

It’s just not as simple as “stay inside” 

Mental health is a huge thing with the lockdown and even if people are “sitting at home getting paid” - its just not as easy as that 

There are millions on reduced wages , millions worrying about if there is a business to go back too - getting out and about is crucial to a lot of people and even a game of golf can help that

But on the outside furlough sounds lovely in the summer but the longer it’s gone on people are going to get worried and we can’t all shut ourselves inside - the country still needs to move forward and can do with the guidelines set out. The economy needs to keep moving , people need to go to work , people need to visit shops , it’s a circle that keeps it all moving 

Do people lock themselves away during the flu season ? 

People are still going to get Covid even with every measure possible , it’s going to happen , and unfortunately and heartbreaking for some it’s going to cost a very small percentage their lives but you can never also discount the other affects of this pandemic and mental health is a key area that has to be watched.


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			And that is absolutely your choice 👍

Unfortunately, if we all make the same choice then there won’t be a country for us to emerge into.

And trust me. No one wants to protect the Nurses of the NHS more than I do. Who’s going to make my tea and look after the kids if mine goes? 😉
		
Click to expand...

I disagree - IMO the reason these economically damaging lockdowns/tiers etc. have lasted so long and still persist just now is not enough people are choosing to stay at home more of the time and cut right back on non-essential trips outside the house.

No-one can be certain of course and at least there is finally light at the end of the tunnel in the form of vaccines, but I for one will be continuing with minimising the number of times I leave hone just as I have been since the original lockdown in March.


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## DanFST (Dec 1, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I disagree - IMO the reason these economically damaging lockdowns/tiers etc. have lasted so long and still persist just now is not enough people are choosing to stay at home more of the time and cut right back on non-essential trips outside the house.
.
		
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Unless you get 0 cases and shut borders, it's just not feasable. We were too late.


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Unless you get 0 cases and shut borders, it's just not feasable. We were too late.
		
Click to expand...

It's not a case of having zero cases.  If fewer people are moving around less of the time, the fewer cases we would have. If more people stayed at home more of the time, chances are the number of cases would be lower and the restrictions wouldn't need to be so severe to maintain that lower level of cases.

Just my opinion of course, I know many others don't share that view.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 1, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Unless you get 0 cases and shut borders, it's just not feasable. We were too late.
		
Click to expand...

There was no 'too late'. 

Once the virus made the jump to humans, unless it was contained and eradicated within the first few cases. It was game over for stopping it spreading. 

It is impossible in todays world to shut borders and society down enough to stop a virus such as this spreading.


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## DanFST (Dec 1, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			There was no 'too late'.

Once the virus made the jump to humans, unless it was contained and eradicated within the first few cases. It was game over for stopping it spreading.

It is impossible in todays world to shut borders and society down enough to stop a virus such as this spreading.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced, Singapore shut their borders had a legally required and very good tracing system.

The economy is back to normal, apart from having to wear a mask and not being able to leave+enter, life is pretty much back to normal. I think their cases are normally less than 10 a day, and they are catching 99.99% of them.


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## bluewolf (Dec 1, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I disagree - IMO the reason these economically damaging lockdowns/tiers etc. have lasted so long and still persist just now is not enough people are choosing to stay at home more of the time and cut right back on non-essential trips outside the house.

No-one can be certain of course and at least there is finally light at the end of the tunnel in the form of vaccines, but I for one will be continuing with minimising the number of times I leave hone just as I have been since the original lockdown in March.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, define essential...

Shopping can be delivered - Food and Christmas. 
Exercise can be done at home. 
most other things can be done online. 

If we limit our outdoor time to just travelling to and from work (those that have to), then all retail except the biggest online businesses would collapse. The hospitality sector would collapse. Travel  etc would collapse. 

It’s not about reducing the risk to near zero. It’s about minimising it to the point that the structures in place can cope until a vaccine is administered. 

Me personally, I’m booked into the gym tomorrow and Thursday. I’m playing golf on Friday/Saturday/Sunday. When the pubs open I’ll be enjoying a nice socially distanced pint with the dogs next to a roaring fire. All of this will be done whilst observing the safety and hygiene rules in place. I have absolutely no guilt about this.

I support your (and everyone else’s) right to make your own choices. 👍


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, define essential...

Shopping can be delivered - Food and Christmas.
Exercise can be done at home.
most other things can be done online.

If we limit our outdoor time to just travelling to and from work (those that have to), then all retail except the biggest online businesses would collapse. The hospitality sector would collapse. Travel  etc would collapse.

It’s not about reducing the risk to near zero. It’s about minimising it to the point that the structures in place can cope until a vaccine is administered.

Me personally, I’m booked into the gym tomorrow and Thursday. I’m playing golf on Friday/Saturday/Sunday. When the pubs open I’ll be enjoying a nice socially distanced pint with the dogs next to a roaring fire. All of this will be done whilst observing the safety and hygiene rules in place. I have absolutely no guilt about this.

I support your (and everyone else’s) right to make your own choices. 👍
		
Click to expand...

I did say cut back, not completely eliminate. And the retail, travel and hospitality sectors are all already decimated.

And to use your diary above as an example, if it was me I would not go to the gym at all and play golf just the once.


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## bluewolf (Dec 1, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I did say cut back, not completely eliminate. And the retail, travel and hospitality sectors are all already decimated.

And to use your diary above as an example, if it was me I would not go to the gym at all and play golf just the once.
		
Click to expand...

Not go to the gym 🥺🥺🥺
Play golf once 🥺🥺🥺

But but but...... That’s no fun


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not go to the gym 🥺🥺🥺
Play golf once 🥺🥺🥺

But but but...... That’s no fun
		
Click to expand...

Tell me about it, been my life now since March.

As I WFH, the only time I get out of the house is my weekly visit to the golf course.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s just not as simple as “stay inside”

Mental health is a huge thing with the lockdown and even if people are “sitting at home getting paid” - its just not as easy as that

There are millions on reduced wages , millions worrying about if there is a business to go back too - getting out and about is crucial to a lot of people and even a game of golf can help that

But on the outside furlough sounds lovely in the summer but the longer it’s gone on people are going to get worried and we can’t all shut ourselves inside - the country still needs to move forward and can do with the guidelines set out. The economy needs to keep moving , people need to go to work , people need to visit shops , it’s a circle that keeps it all moving

Do people lock themselves away during the flu season ?

People are still going to get Covid even with every measure possible , it’s going to happen , and unfortunately and heartbreaking for some it’s going to cost a very small percentage their lives but you can never also discount the other affects of this pandemic and mental health is a key area that has to be watched.
		
Click to expand...

Are people actually reading what is being written? 
Bob has always said that it is what is unnecessary that is what should be curtailed.
Here


_''To those who are planning to make unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.''_

Then he went on to say that of course some have to do actions that carry risk.
That is what the whole dilemma that the authorities are battling with. 
There are things that have to be done by a lot - most -people that puts them and others at risk of Covid. No one is denying that
Ethan has said that most activities outside carry a negligible risk using some common sense, so if there is no risk then fine. Golf , walking etc
It's the  *unnecessary*  risk that is being taken time and again by people feeding this virus that is under debate here. And I find it hard to understand those here who support such risk taking. 
If doing this impacted only those who took those unnecessary risks, then I'd say, fine - go ahead. I wouldn't lose any sleep over their fate.
But this is a different scenario. 
Who lives a lifestyle where if they catch it, no one else will?
Exactly!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Are people actually reading what is being written?
Bob has always said that it is what is unnecessary that is what should be curtailed.
Here


_''To those who are planning to make unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.''_

*Then he went on to say that of course some have to do actions that carry risk.*
That is what the whole dilemma that the authorities are battling with.
There are things that have to be done by a lot - most -people that puts them and others at risk of Covid. No one is denying that
Ethan has said that most activities outside carry a negligible risk using some common sense, so if there is no risk then fine. Golf , walking etc
It's the  *unnecessary*  risk that is being taken time and again by people feeding this virus that is under debate here. And I find it hard to understand those here who support such risk taking.
If doing this impacted only those who took those unnecessary risks, then I'd say, fine - go ahead. I wouldn't lose any sleep over their fate.
But this is a different scenario.
Who lives a lifestyle where if they catch it, no one else will?
Exactly!
		
Click to expand...

Re the bit in bold, if they do have to do actions that carry risk then they aren’t unnecessary, only you yourself can decide what you deem neccessary.

I’d doubt anybody on here is going to come on post they do X amount of unneccessary journeys because they want to or they can.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 1, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Indeed that should be on top of a basic 34. Then they might just start to be fairly paid.
		
Click to expand...

I believe it is. The £34K is the average scale rate, that doesn't include shift or overtime.


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## Slab (Dec 1, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Re the bit in bold, if they do have to do actions that carry risk then they aren’t unnecessary, only you yourself can decide what you deem neccessary.

*I’d doubt anybody on here is going to come on post they do X amount of unneccessary journeys because they want to or they can.*

Click to expand...

Yeah they've been kinda doing that since March though
Buying everything from board games to DIY supplies meaning needless journeys by others, households going out shopping 5-6 times a week etc
This forum has been all about the non-essentials since day 1


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Are people actually reading what is being written?
Bob has always said that it is what is unnecessary that is what should be curtailed.
Here


_''To those who are planning to make unnecessary journeys/meetings/gatherings etc over the next few weeks, please spare a thought for the nurses and doctors.''_

Then he went on to say that of course some have to do actions that carry risk.
That is what the whole dilemma that the authorities are battling with.
There are things that have to be done by a lot - most -people that puts them and others at risk of Covid. No one is denying that
Ethan has said that most activities outside carry a negligible risk using some common sense, so if there is no risk then fine. Golf , walking etc
It's the  *unnecessary*  risk that is being taken time and again by people feeding this virus that is under debate here. And I find it hard to understand those here who support such risk taking.
If doing this impacted only those who took those unnecessary risks, then I'd say, fine - go ahead. I wouldn't lose any sleep over their fate.
But this is a different scenario.
Who lives a lifestyle where if they catch it, no one else will?
Exactly!
		
Click to expand...

So what is classed as “unnecessary” risk ? Can it be defined ? Or will it be up to each person to decide what they feel they can do without ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 1, 2020)

Slab said:



			Yeah they've been kinda doing that since March though
Buying everything from board games to DIY supplies meaning needless journeys by others, households going out shopping 5-6 times a week etc
This forum has been all about the non-essentials since day 1
		
Click to expand...

Those who have done such things, I’m not sure who you mean, they may of deemed them neccessary for a multitude of reasons.


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## chellie (Dec 1, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I did say cut back, not completely eliminate. And the retail, travel and hospitality sectors are all already decimated.

And to use your diary above as an example, if it was me I would not go to the gym at all and play golf just the once.
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand this. The gym I go to is safer than a supermarket. You have to prebook a slot. These are limited in number. It is cleaned every one and a half hours. They also use a fogging machine on it. Equipment has to be wiped down before and after use. I've only seen one couple not do this and I complained about them. Golf is outside in the fresh air with no close contact of anyone not in my household.


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2020)

chellie said:



			I don't understand this. The gym I go to is safer than a supermarket. You have to prebook a slot. These are limited in number. It is cleaned every one and a half hours. They also use a fogging machine on it. Equipment has to be wiped down before and after use. I've only seen one couple not do this and I complained about them. Golf is outside in the fresh air with no close contact of anyone not in my household.
		
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I never mentioned supermarkets or said gyms weren't safe. My simple point is IMO, not enough people are cutting back enough to avoid the rate of spread being too high to necessitate the various lockdowns/tiers etc. we are being subjected to.

And for the record, I don't go to supermarkets either. I do play golf once a week so I haven't cut out everything non-essential myself so everyone needs to make their own choices but as I said, I feel that too many people are still going out and about too much and so the rates continue to be too high and the restrictions continue to be necessary.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 1, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what is classed as “unnecessary” risk ? Can it be defined ? _*Or will it be up to each person to decide what they feel they can do without ?[/*_QUOTE]

If it was thus, you wouldn't have lockdowns or tiers. 
Are you in favour of "each person to decide....?
Really?
		
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## bobmac (Dec 1, 2020)

The thread title asked how it's affected me, I gave my opinion.
If people want to help their mental health by going to the pub/gym/supermarket/church/hill climbing/holidays/golf etc, carry on, all I've asked is to spare a thought for the doctors and nurses mental health because anyone going out after lockdown is lifted and get a bad case of the killer virus could well end up in ICU just in time for Christmas.


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## bluewolf (Dec 1, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If it was thus, you wouldn't have lockdowns or tiers. 
Are you in favour of "each person to decide....?
Really?
		
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Not really, but I’m also not in favour of a small number of people who have the wherewithal and the mentality making the decision for everyone either. 
My personal preference is for a series of rules/guidelines, based on strong science and an understanding of economic effects, that we can all work within to *minimise *the risks of overburdening the NHS*. *


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 1, 2020)

bobmac said:



			The thread title asked how it's affected me, I gave my opinion.
If people want to help their mental health by going to the pub/gym/supermarket/church/hill climbing/holidays/golf etc, carry on, all I've asked is to spare a thought for the doctors and nurses mental health because anyone going out after lockdown is lifted and get a bad case of the killer virus could well end up in ICU just in time for Christmas.
		
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But do you expect everyone to just sit inside and only go out when absolutely necessary- you appeared in the inital post to dismiss “people sitting there earning money” and going out using mental health as an excuse 


Nurses and Doctors are constantly under stress throughout the year because of many different issues we face , there are many illnesses and issues that increase during the winter. 

People are going to catch it - there is a risk with anything.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2020)

I have to go to work in a Covid related area. Risk
I have to commute back from work
Once I get off the train I am faced with the choice of walking (50 minutes), cab (£8.00 and about 7-10 minutes) but a risk or a bus for twenty minutes potentially very high risk

The option isn't there to work from home so I have to take my chances. Mask on all the time, hands washed when I get to Reading station and then as soon as I get through the front door. It is a calculated risk but what options are there


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2020)

Without taking sides, we are now in the unfortunate position of having to make the best of a bad job. There are no really good options. There probably was a window, a small one, back in Feb/March to change the course of the pandemic in the UK, by imposing immigration controls and enforced quarantine for arriving passengers. We missed that and the virus got in to the country in larger quantities than we hoped. Then the challenge becomes stopping it moving around, i.e. transmitting. We kinda blew that one too.

From that point, we were always going to be on the back foot. Rates dropped in summer with decent adherence to the rules, but there was still too much virus in the background. Michael Give described it on Today as running  bath, with cases filling the bath. I see it more as a wildfire across a large forest. If it gets too big, there are always areas where you fail to suppress it enough and it will reactivate.

Many people saw the second wave coming - it was inevitable really. Then there was a need for rapid and string action, but that didn't happen soon enough, so the problem got pushed closer to Christmas than anyone would have liked.

In the period between now and vaccines become available, there is great danger. That danger is complacency, where people think it is more or less all over, him straight. It really isn't. This Christmas period is likely to cause a rise in cases. It remains to be seen if that is a blip or a massive rise. It could be OK, or it could be very ugly indeed.

My family will be having a quiet Christmas, meeting rellies only on Zoom. If it all works out OK and we get the vacc in time (wife is an NHS doctor, so she is probably covered), then maybe we will do something at Easter. I am confident in the review processes of the EMA and MHRA and will happily accept the first approved vaccine I am offered.

In the meantime, I would advise people to take care. You don't want a nasty bout of Covid over Christmas and the New Year and you definitely don't want Homer trying to find you a hospital bed (Berkshire members only).


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			you definitely don't want Homer trying to find you a hospital bed (Berkshire members only).
		
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Or opening your eyes and seeing me in full PPE by your bedside.


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Or opening your eyes and seeing me in full PPE by your bedside.
		
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Are frightening hallucinations common with Covid?


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## ger147 (Dec 1, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Are frightening hallucinations common with Covid?
		
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I was gonna ask if there is a linear method of Covid?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I was gonna ask if there is a linear method of Covid?
		
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I fear it’s feeling more circular than linear - that we’ve been here before and we’ll be back here again in the new year - and we are feeling very weary of this, very fed up and disappointed - but will just stick with it as best we can as we feel we must ☹️


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Really powerful piece on on CH4 news just now. A succession of people, wide variety, who've lost their jobs as a result of the pandemic just speaking openly and honestly to a camera about what they did and what they're doing now and the effect on them. I was gradually drawn in and captivated by it - realise just how fortunate we've been to both have our work unaffected.
		
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I heard Michael Gove, somebody I rarely agree with, say that the damage to the economy is not due to lockdown, it is due to the virus. I agree with him. The two go hand in hand, fixing the economy requires dealing effectively with the virus. Half hearted measures do not deal effectively with the virus, just lets it go quiet for a bit, but it will bite back later.


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## larmen (Dec 1, 2020)

I got a letter from the NHS today that I should  be shielding until the 2nd of December ;-)
It's dated from the 20th of November,  so it took a while to get here.

So I got out for my flue shot, which is allowed, and I postponed my weekly shopping drip to tomorrow.

I had a brief conversation with the practice pharmacist about Covid vaccine and he said they are unlikely to do it at the GP practice, it's very likely that there will be centres. But he didn't let on to anything else. Either he doesn't know, or he can't say.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2020)

The increased risk due to being over 60 and overweight were I to contract the virus caused me to decide to lose weight (I have known for over 20yrs that I needed to lose some weight but have never bothered and it has just slowly piled on).

Started 5:2 diet on 3rd August and today the scales tell me that there is exactly 2 stone less of me than there was 4 months ago. Just over 15 to just over 13.  Aiming for under 13 by Christmas.  Is that weight loss a silver lining in the gloom and pain of the pandemic...hmm. But it is something, and I feel a bit better for it - and for the first time in many years a 36” waist fits pretty easy and medium t-shirts don‘t make me feel like a trussed up turkey.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The increased risk due to being over 60 and overweight were I to contract the virus caused me to decide to lose weight (I have known for over 20yrs that I needed to lose some weight but have never bothered and the weight has just slowly piled on).

Started 5:2 diet on 3rd August and today the scales tell me that there is exactly 2 stone less of me.  Just over 15 to just over 13.  Aiming for under 13 by Christmas.  Is that weight loss a silver lining in the gloom and pain of the pandemic...hmm. But it is something, and I feel a bit better for it.
		
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That is an excellent result with multiple health benefits for you. Well done. Make sure there is some strength training in there, press ups, planks, weights, whatever.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I agree completely.

I wasn't making any sort of anti-lockdown point. My heart just went out to all these people.
		
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I know, I was just making a general point too and happened to choose yours to attach it to.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is an excellent result with multiple health benefits for you. Well done. Make sure there is some strength training in there, press ups, planks, weights, whatever.
		
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That’s the next thing...for after Christmas.  Up the exercise as all I do at the moment is aim for average over a week of 10,000 steps a day - excluding golf - and my wife drives that, not me.  The weight is one thing but I need to work on my waist as I still have a bit too much of a paunch.


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## Jimaroid (Dec 2, 2020)

Brilliant news on the first MHRA vaccine approval today. Nothing much else to say, it feels like it’s the first time the morning news reports have had anything sensible or positive in them for a very long time. I hope it lifts everyone’s spirits as it deserves to.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That’s the next thing...for after Christmas.  Up the exercise as all I do at the moment is aim for average over a week of 10,000 steps a day - excluding golf - and my wife drives that, not me.  The weight is one thing but I need to work on my waist as I still have a bit too much of a paunch.
		
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Sounds good. I am not a huge fan of the 10k steps thing, no real evidence that the number has any significance, but a lot of people find it quite motivating to have the target.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 2, 2020)

Just watching the government briefing on the vaccine, announced the first phase of vaccination, pick your group


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## Billysboots (Dec 2, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Just watching the government briefing on the vaccine, announced the first phase of vaccination, pick your group

View attachment 33822

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6 for me.

All I personally need now is some sort of timescale, which I know will be largely dependent on the quantity of vaccine available. Clearly, if approval of the Oxford/AZ vaccine follows reasonably swiftly that will have a massive bearing on that.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 2, 2020)

Group 1a.    Single-figure handicappers and former Club Captains


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## DanFST (Dec 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Surprised the Armed Forces, police etc aren't prioritised.
		
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Why would armed forces be prioritised?

Physically fit, working in areas that are inaccessible to the public. Even in the US there's only been 12 military deaths. (that's still horrific). Surely there would be greater effect vaccinating public facing key workers?


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## GB72 (Dec 2, 2020)

May sound stupid (and may actually be) but I would vaccinate children pretty early on. I know that covid does not pose much of a threat to them but they can be the unseen spreaders of the disease as they are in situations with a great deal of contact but have a high chance of being asymptomatic and so nobody realises that they have it. The return to schools and universities could be a factor in the increase in cases now.  Schools used to be pretty adept at dealing with vaccination programs as so  it would seem like a relatively simple task to arrange.


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## DanFST (Dec 2, 2020)

Overall the schedule makes sense to me. Vaccinate those at risk of death, then case numbers aren't that worrying.


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## Slab (Dec 2, 2020)

Queen first surely. Great message of confidence to all her people


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## bluewolf (Dec 2, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Just watching the government briefing on the vaccine, announced the first phase of vaccination, pick your group

View attachment 33822

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Looks like a long wait for me then. Not to worry though. There are many people far more at risk than me 👍


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That’s the next thing...for after Christmas.  Up the exercise as all I do at the moment is aim for average over a week of 10,000 steps a day - excluding golf - and my wife drives that, not me.  The weight is one thing but I need to work on my waist as I still have a bit too much of a paunch.
		
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I have increased muscle building exercises using stretch bands and dumbbells as it's so easy to lose muscle mass as you age. I'm really pleased with the results and feeling a lot stronger.  I don't count steps but do a fair amount of walking, having the Malverns within a par five from my house is great for that.

Keep up the good work Hogie 👍


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## BiMGuy (Dec 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Because the Armed Forces aren't caged up 24 hours a day when they finish work.   They still live with and/or spend time with families, friends and the general public, have to go shopping, spend their leisure time doing what everyone else does.
Surely if there's a group of people who need to be vaccinating it's a group of people protecting the country.
		
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Are we in danger of invasion or going to war anytime in the near future? 

Many other industries, such as construction. Arguably a bigger group,  have also continued to work throughout the pandemic. And are one of the biggest contributors to the economy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Are we in danger of invasion or going to war anytime in the near future?

Many other industries, such as construction. Arguably a bigger group,  have also continued to work throughout the pandemic. And are one of the biggest contributors to the economy.
		
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I don’t agree with all the Armed Forces being near the top of the list, but those manning the Test stations or helping deliver the Vaccine should be a priority along with those civilians doing the same roles.

You’ll have to remind though me just how many of those on the building sites have been taken off their day job to man the test stations.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t agree with all the Armed Forces being near the top of the list, but those manning the Test stations or helping deliver the Vaccine should be a priority along with those civilians doing the same roles.

You’ll have to remind though me just how many of those on the building sites have been taken off their day job to man the test stations.
		
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Probably not that many. What's that got to do with it. Most of the Armed forces haven't either. And their day jobs aren't one of the few industries left positively contributing to the economy in increasingly difficult conditions.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Are we in danger of invasion or going to war anytime in the near future?

Many other industries, such as construction. Arguably a bigger group,  have also continued to work throughout the pandemic. And are one of the biggest contributors to the economy.
		
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If another world war kicks off, I suppose the builders on the scaffolding can wolf whistle and tell them to sod off. That should do it. Anyone else remember who built the nightingale hospitals. When the poo hits the fan you will not be asking builders to hold the poo end of the stick.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Surprised the Armed Forces, police etc aren't prioritised.
		
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We are super hero’s, we roll out sleeves down in the winter and put a vest on if it gets cold indoors.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Why would armed forces be prioritised?

Physically fit, working in areas that are inaccessible to the public. Even in the US there's only been 12 military deaths. (that's still horrific). Surely there would be greater effect vaccinating public facing key workers?
		
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Apart from the 10,000 supporting the NHS, many in front line testing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Probably not that many. What's that got to do with it. Most of the Armed forces haven't either. And their day jobs aren't one of the few industries left positively contributing to the economy in increasingly difficult conditions.
		
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Eh! Thousands of the Armed Forces have been mobilised and helping out since day one, during which time your construction industry was in lockdown!
Pointless building stuff if your population is dying and economy is collapsing!


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## bobmac (Dec 2, 2020)

_''Several million of the Pfizer jabs are expected to be delivered to the UK before Christmas, with the armed forces involved in the logistics of distributing the vaccine.''_

_Pfizer/BioNTech Covid vaccine approved for UK use | Evening Standard _


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We are super hero’s, we roll out sleeves down in the winter and put a vest on if it gets cold indoors.
		
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I thought you closed the hatch and made a brew.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 2, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			If another world war kicks off, I suppose the builders on the scaffolding can wolf whistle and tell them to sod off. That should do it. Anyone else remember who built the nightingale hospitals. When the poo hits the fan you will not be asking builders to hold the poo end of the stick.
		
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I think you're misunderstanding what the construction industry is. The army did a lot of logistical work for the nightingale hospitals. But the construction industry were the brains of the operation and did all the fit out work. I know many people involved. 

It was a collaborative effort.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I thought you closed the hatch and made a brew.

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Those nice cold charge bins are there for better things than tea.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			I think you're misunderstanding what the construction industry is. The army did a lot of logistical work for the nightingale hospitals. But the construction industry were the brains of the operation and did all the fit out work. I know many people involved.

It was a collaborative effort.
		
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No they didn’t do all the fit out work, I also know many involved, they worked along side the Royal Engineer Construction Trades, who by the way carry out this role worldwide when needed and do it with no input from the UK construction industry, however do they manage?🤷‍♂️

*Health Secretary Matt Hancock* said: “In the face of this unprecedented global emergency, we are taking exceptional steps to increase NHS capacity so we can treat more patients, fight the virus and save lives.

“I applaud the NHS, engineers, and the military for their continued work on setting up the new NHS Nightingale Hospital so it is ready to open its doors next week – a remarkable feat in these challenging circumstances.”

Military personnel have been involved in the planning stages and continue to support NHS England by providing infrastructure, logistics and project management advice.

*Defence Secretary Ben Wallace* said: “Our military planners and engineers are working hand in hand with the NHS to support their development of the NHS Nightingale Hospital. The Armed Forces have already been distributing personal protective equipment (PPE) to meet the increased demand and we stand ready to assist further in any capacity needed.

“The NHS and our Armed Forces are both world leaders in their fields, and this ambitious project is just one example of what can be achieved when they come together to help the nation.”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

The fact is, everyone has a role to play in this, whether it be those first in line or those at the back of the queue.

I would just suggest that to ensure we all get the chance to get the vaccine, those involved in the delivery or ongoing fight against the virus, whether Military or not, should be protected and given a higher priority in the roll out programme.


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## chellie (Dec 2, 2020)

Does the thread really need to turn into a who did what argument


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2020)

chellie said:



			Does the thread really need to turn into a who did what argument

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yes, it’s winter 
Not sure why all this hype is going on in the media, it’s building up hopes and misleading for now, most of us will be waiting until around summer if we are lucky to get in the queue for a jab IMO.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			yes, it’s winter 
Not sure why all this hype is going on in the media, it’s building up hopes and misleading for now, most of us will be waiting until around summer if we are lucky to get in the queue for a jab IMO.
		
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Or maybe it’s not arguing just 3 or 4 people holding different point of views and discussing them whilst staying within forum rules.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			No they didn’t do all the fit out work, I also know many involved, they worked along side the Royal Engineer Construction Trades, who by the way carry out this role worldwide when needed and do it with no input from the UK construction industry, however do they manage?🤷‍♂️

*Health Secretary Matt Hancock* said: “In the face of this unprecedented global emergency, we are taking exceptional steps to increase NHS capacity so we can treat more patients, fight the virus and save lives.

“I applaud the NHS, engineers, and the military for their continued work on setting up the new NHS Nightingale Hospital so it is ready to open its doors next week – a remarkable feat in these challenging circumstances.”

Military personnel have been involved in the planning stages and continue to support NHS England by providing infrastructure, logistics and project management advice.

*Defence Secretary Ben Wallace* said: “Our military planners and engineers are working hand in hand with the NHS to support their development of the NHS Nightingale Hospital. The Armed Forces have already been distributing personal protective equipment (PPE) to meet the increased demand and we stand ready to assist further in any capacity needed.

“The NHS and our Armed Forces are both world leaders in their fields, and this ambitious project is just one example of what can be achieved when they come together to help the nation.”
		
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Apologies for using the word all.

Neither group did all the work. As I said it was collaborative.

I think there is a perception that the private sector has been gardening all year and the only people at work are the NHS and other public services.

Apart from 24 hours after the first lockdown. My company has been working all the way through with only a few, mostly office based staff on furlough. We all took a 20% pay cut and have in most cases worked longer hours against rediculous deadlines. The site teams have been working under ever increasing conditions whilst still having to meet deadlines.

🍻


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Apologies for using the word all.

Neither group did all the work. As I said it was collaborative.

I think there is a perception that the private sector has been gardening all year and the only people at work are the NHS and other public services.

Apart from 24 hours after the first lockdown. My company has been working all the way through with only a few, mostly office based staff on furlough. We all took a 20% pay cut and have in most cases worked longer hours against rediculous deadlines. The site teams have been working under ever increasing conditions whilst still having to meet deadlines.

🍻
		
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Totally agree and that’s why I said it should be all those at the forefront whether in Uniform or not, everybody/job is vital and we all have a role to play. 🍻


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Apologies for using the word all.

Neither group did all the work. As I said it was collaborative.

I think there is a perception that the private sector has been gardening all year and the only people at work are the NHS and other public services.

Apart from 24 hours after the first lockdown. My company has been working all the way through with only a few, mostly office based staff on furlough. We all took a 20% pay cut and have in most cases worked longer hours against rediculous deadlines. The site teams have been working under ever increasing conditions whilst still having to meet deadlines.

🍻
		
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aye - what about all those keeping a hospital's networks running and at the same time increasing it's capacity without bringing the whole lot down - the engineers, technical architects and (ahem) the project managers (ahem)... working stupid o'clock to stupid o'clock in the wee small hours of the morning to minimise risk to hospital operations with no O/T or TOIL coming their way...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2020)

Initial vaccination for over 80s and most vulnerable will commence later this month - but it'll just be first of two parts.  Second part for most vulnerable will in period Jan through March/April. Sounds like less vulnerable will not start until April onwards...hmmm.  So quite some time through next year before vaccination of the wider population is being completed.  Not sure that that message will be taken on board by many...because that might mean many months of significant restrictions,  ah well.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Initial vaccination for over 80s and most vulnerable will commence later this month - but it'll just be first of two parts.  Second part for most vulnerable will in period Jan through March/April. Sounds like less vulnerable will not start until April onwards...hmmm.  So quite some time through next year before vaccination of the wider population is being completed.  Not sure that that message will be taken on board by many...because that might mean many months of significant restrictions,  ah well.
		
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Not quite correct, those timelines were based on the 1 vaccine announced today, as the other 6 vaccines come on line these will impact on the roll out and times, the PM is talking about us hopefully being in a good place by Spring, but we are not out the woods yet.

Thought it was/is an excellent press briefing today.

Edit:
Further point stated by Van-Tam that the most vulnerable group that was announced today, makes up 99% of Covid-19 deaths seen so far in the UK, so that grouping was no accident.


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## larmen (Dec 2, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Just watching the government briefing on the vaccine, announced the first phase of vaccination, pick your group

View attachment 33822

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6 for me, I think. Seeing the surgeon in December anyway so I can inquire there.

But wasn’t there talk about primary school kids being a priority as well?


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Not quite correct, those timelines were based on the 1 vaccine announced today, as the other 6 vaccines come on line these will impact on the roll out and times, the PM is talking about us hopefully being in a good place by Spring, but we are not out the woods yet.

Thought it was/is an excellent press briefing today.
		
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The initial supply of Pfizer vacc is modest, not enough to cover the care home/NHS/over 80s. Moderna is not available anytime soon, so a lot depends on the AZ approval and supply.

It is rich claiming this as a Brexit bonus when it was an EU law allowing countries to put local emergency measures in place and the vacc in question was developed by a German company with EU funding support.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

larmen said:



			6 for me, I think. Seeing the surgeon in December anyway so I can inquire there.

But wasn’t there talk about primary school kids being a priority as well?
		
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The vaccine is not approved for children (or pregnant women).


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The initial supply of Pfizer vacc is modest, not enough to cover the care home/NHS/over 80s. Moderna is not available anytime soon, so a lot depends on the AZ approval and supply.

It is rich claiming this as a Brexit bonus when it was an EU law allowing countries to put local emergency measures in place and the vacc in question was developed by a German company with EU funding support.
		
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Totally agree with the 2nd paragraph, thankfully the PM didn’t support that pov in the press briefing.


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## KenL (Dec 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The vaccine is not approved for children (or pregnant women).
		
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I thought nobody under 18 were in the initial plans.
NS was saying recently that all over 18 could be vaccinated by spring in Scotland.  Can't see it myself.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Totally agree with the 2nd paragraph, thankfully the PM didn’t support that pov in the press briefing.
		
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True, that was more Matty Boy. PM was getting slightly Churchillian at one point, though .


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2020)

Sorry if this has been asked but would you have the vaccine if you have had Covid. A guy is saying on telly why not, it would boost your immunity, but Covid Barry who I played with today says he don’t need it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Initial vaccination for over 80s and most vulnerable will commence later this month - but it'll just be first of two parts.  Second part for most vulnerable will in period Jan through March/April. Sounds like less vulnerable will not start until April onwards...hmmm.  So quite some time through next year before vaccination of the wider population is being completed.  Not sure that that message will be taken on board by many...because that might mean many months of significant restrictions,  ah well.
		
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But surely the less vulnerable will be able to wait and if rates are increasing restrictions will be imposed vaccine or not


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## AmandaJR (Dec 2, 2020)

I find it sad how quickly (less than 12 hours) the genuine triumph and fantastic news of an approved vaccine has turned into a negative, pick holes in it feast by the media and others.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

KenL said:



			I thought nobody under 18 were in the initial plans.
NS was saying recently that all over 18 could be vaccinated by spring in Scotland.  Can't see it myself.
		
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Here is an info document for healthcare professionals which has more information (some of which is not v. interesting). MHRA document on Pfizer vacc

The rate limiting steps to getting mass vaccination are, not surprisingly, vaccine supply and giving the shots. I think Scotland can do the latter, they can mobilise enough healthcare professionals and newly trained people to do it. Supply depends on which vaccines are approved and when and what supply is available for short term shipping. Right now, Pfizer can supply a modest amount, more to follow in Jan/Feb, Moderna none till April, AZ will probably need to make the great weight needed for most of the population. I think they have been producing fairly actively, but are also committed to the US, EU and other places. 

Good thing Spring usually comes late in Scotland!


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I find it sad how quickly (less than 12 hours) the genuine triumph and fantastic news of an approved vaccine has turned into a negative, pick holes in it feast by the media and others.
		
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This was an expected event, perhaps occurring a week or two sooner than expected, but considerable issues remain and this thing is very far from over. I don't think anyone has not welcomed the vacc.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not me as such but a couple of Guys i know who play at Gullane and live in Edinburgh have been told by the club they cannot travel there to play if you are outside the 5 miles. they are in T3 and Gullane T2
		
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Season ticket holders outwith SA are well pissed off with the council for stopping them playing on the eight South Ayrshire council golf courses.
Especially the ones who live less than 5 miles from the courses.
Both T4.


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## Billysboots (Dec 2, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Sorry if this has been asked but would you have the vaccine if you have had Covid. A guy is saying on telly why not, it would boost your immunity, but Covid Barry who I played with today says he don’t need it.
		
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I’ve had Covid, according to an antibody test. And I’ll be having the vaccine as soon as it’s offered.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I find it sad how quickly (less than 12 hours) the genuine triumph and fantastic news of an approved vaccine has turned into a negative, pick holes in it feast by the media and others.
		
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You should live in Scotland Amanda.

Scots Government issues £500 one off payment to NHS staff.
30 minutes later it's a massive  'what about meeeeeeee.'
'I'm part time and I won't be getting £500.'
'I'm a bin man and I'm getting sod all'.
'Doctors don't need an extra £500 they are well paid etc etc etc.'


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## Tashyboy (Dec 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I find it sad how quickly (less than 12 hours) the genuine triumph and fantastic news of an approved vaccine has turned into a negative, pick holes in it feast by the media and others.
		
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Facebook Karen is going into meltdown.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			True, that was more Matty Boy. PM was getting slightly Churchillian at one point, though .
		
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..and German Ambassador to UK has stressed how this has been a fantastic pan-European effort - just in case anyone was mistaken...but great news of course that the UK pharma agencies has been able to approve it today 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But surely the less vulnerable will be able to wait and if rates are increasing restrictions will be imposed vaccine or not
		
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We will...and I hope everyone (out there) understands that we remain as vulnerable as ever to infection and able to infect until we have the vaccinations.  Of course the sooner and wider the more vulnerable are vaccinated the risk to that community from the rest of us reduces - but as you say - if we think that as the more vulnerable are vaccinated the rest of us can relax then the virus will have a field day ☹️


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We will...and I hope everyone understands that we remain as vulnerable as ever to infection and able to infect until we have the vaccinations.  Of course the sooner and wider the more vulnerable are vaccinated the risk to that community from the rest of us reduces.
		
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Sorry silh, but there’s no way your not in the 1st tranche! ie, most vulnerable categories.

*1* - Residents in a care home for older adults and their carers
*2* - All those aged 80 and over. Frontline health and social care workers
*3* - All those aged 75 and over
*4* - All those aged 70 and over. Clinically extremely vulnerable individuals
*5* - All those aged 65 and over
*6 *- All individuals aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions which put them at higher risk of serious disease and mortality
*7 *- All those aged 60 and over
*8 *- All those aged 55 and over
*9 *- All those aged 50 and over


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and German Ambassador to UK has stressed how this has been a fantastic pan-European effort - just in case anyone was mistaken...but great news of course that the UK pharma agencies has been able to approve it today 👍
		
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They could have done precisely the same if we had been staying in the European Medicines Agency.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 2, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry silh, but there’s no way your not in the 1st tranche! ie, most vulnerable categories.

*1* - Residents in a care home for older adults and their carers
*2* - All those aged 80 and over. Frontline health and social care workers
*3* - All those aged 75 and over
*4* - All those aged 70 and over. Clinically extremely vulnerable individuals
*5* - All those aged 65 and over
*6 *- All individuals aged 16-64 with underlying health conditions which put them at higher risk of serious disease and mortality
*7 *- All those aged 60 and over
*8 *- All those aged 55 and over
*9 *- All those aged 50 and over
		
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number 7s - come on down!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			number 7s - come on down!
		
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Like Van-Tam sadly stated, those 9 categories have accounted for 99% of Covid-19 deaths in the UK. Hence being the most vulnerable.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 2, 2020)

Anyone know how long after you get the second jab can you go around hugging random people who have also had two shots?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 2, 2020)

A question, probably for @Ethan, but also for anyone else that might know. My stepdad will be in the 2nd group to be vaccinated as he's over 80. My mum will be in group 4 - between 70 and 75. Mrs Colch will be in group 6 with an underlying health condition. Being a young, fit whippersnapper myself I'm not in any of the groups and the two junior Colch's won't get the vaccine. At what point is it safe for my boys to give their grandma a hug? Is it after she's been vaccinated or would we be better waiting until Mrs Colch has been done as well?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			aye - what about all those keeping a hospital's networks running and at the same time increasing it's capacity without bringing the whole lot down - the engineers, technical architects and (ahem) the project managers (ahem)... working stupid o'clock to stupid o'clock in the wee small hours of the morning to minimise risk to hospital operations with no O/T or TOIL coming their way...

Click to expand...

Indeed. Tell someone you work in construction and everyone assumes you are a hairy a£&*&& cowboy builder.


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## GB72 (Dec 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Anyone know how long after you get the second jab can you go around hugging random people who have also had two shots?
		
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Think I read 7 days but not sure


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## PNWokingham (Dec 2, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You should live in Scotland Amanda.

Scots Government issues £500 one off payment to NHS staff.
30 minutes later it's a massive  'what about meeeeeeee.'
'I'm part time and I won't be getting £500.'
'I'm a bin man and I'm getting sod all'.
'Doctors don't need an extra £500 they are well paid etc etc etc.'
		
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thank goodness for the Barnett formula!


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## Billysboots (Dec 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Anyone know how long after you get the second jab can you go around hugging random people who have also had two shots?
		
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There’s a real danger that, in addition to random strangers, I might even start hugging people I actively dislike. You know, just because I can.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			A question, probably for @Ethan, but also for anyone else that might know. My stepdad will be in the 2nd group to be vaccinated as he's over 80. My mum will be in group 4 - between 70 and 75. Mrs Colch will be in group 6 with an underlying health condition. Being a young, fit whippersnapper myself I'm not in any of the groups and the two junior Colch's won't get the vaccine. At what point is it safe for my boys to give their grandma a hug? Is it after she's been vaccinated or would we be better waiting until Mrs Colch has been done as well?
		
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Immunity will start to develop quite quickly, but the safe thing is to wait until about 28 days after the first shot, so if they are treating on schedule, about a week after the second. By then antibody levels will be peaking. Evidence is that older people respond just as well as younger.


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## Ethan (Dec 2, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Sorry if this has been asked but would you have the vaccine if you have had Covid. A guy is saying on telly why not, it would boost your immunity, but Covid Barry who I played with today says he don’t need it.
		
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Yes. The vaccination programme will not be selecting out prior cases. The guy on the telly reflects the general view. You might not _need_ it, but it won't do you any harm and might just turbocharge your immunity.


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## larmen (Dec 2, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Anyone know how long after you get the second jab can you go around hugging random people who have also had two shots?
		
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Will people who had it put it as part of their tinder profile? ;-)


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 2, 2020)

larmen said:



			Will people who had it put it as part of their tinder profile? ;-)
		
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Ha ha, you never know. It opens the door to potential 'intimacies' so it would be a plus point .


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 3, 2020)

Cadbury advent box Dec 4 advice...........give someone a hug at Christmas.
Must be old stock. and an impatient kid.


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## Old Skier (Dec 3, 2020)




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## Old Skier (Dec 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 33826

Click to expand...

Or ask a stranger on the internet.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Or ask a stranger on the internet.
		
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I find the mums of key stage one kids who frequent local Facebook groups are most knowledgeable people when it comes to tackling a global pandemic. 😁


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha, you never know. It opens the door to potential 'intimacies' so it would be a plus point .
		
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Can trump still snog you?


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## larmen (Dec 3, 2020)

Silly bits aside, I have a serious question.

A few weeks ago a handful of people where reported as reinfected, but nothing really came out of it since.
Was that just false data, or isn’t that monitored anymore? Is reinfection a non-issue?


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## Backache (Dec 4, 2020)

larmen said:



			Silly bits aside, I have a serious question.

A few weeks ago a handful of people where reported as reinfected, but nothing really came out of it since.
Was that just false data, or isn’t that monitored anymore? Is reinfection a non-issue?
		
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The cases were genuine and proven but the rate at which it happens is thought to be very low. If reinfection is to become a more common problem it is likely to be a  bit later if immunity wanes significantly.


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## Slab (Dec 4, 2020)

I’m more than a bit confused how uk has managed to rack up way over half a million positive covid tests in a month. That’s an incredible number, if I wanted to go herd immunity I’d be happy with half a million a month catching it! (plus all the untested/asymptomatic) 

There’s still just the two primary ways to get it right?
Touch something with the virus on it then shove your fingers in one of the holes in your face
Come into contact with an airborne droplet that enters through one of the holes in your face

And masks, hand sanitizer, gloves, sunglasses, soap & water, keeping distanced, staying at home etc all create barriers & reduce the chances of the above happening… but more than half a million times in just a month those safeguards have failed, what the hell has happened?


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			what the hell has happened?
		
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Even with the best of practices we can only reduce the risk, it also needs everyone to do their part as it can just take the one person to infect lots who are following the rules. Only once do you need to forget or drop your guard and you can be susceptible to that one persons lack of.

Its also an overall risk, staying home and zero contact? Go food shopping and pick up medication? See people in the park? Every action changes the overall risk profile slightly, it isn’t yes/no as someone with a 1% risk can get it and someone with a 99% risk could not. 

In the end we are all moving about, interacting, touching, breathing etc, it is just less are coming closer to others but with schools and shops open plus workplaces etc then transfer WILL happen.


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## larmen (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			And masks, hand sanitizer, gloves, sunglasses, soap & water, keeping distanced, staying at home etc all create barriers & reduce the chances of the above happening… but more than half a million times in just a month those safeguards have failed, what the hell has happened?
		
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In my OPINION it is complacency. In March we washed our shopping before we put it into the kitchen, but since about end of April that stopped.


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## Slab (Dec 4, 2020)

ScienceBoy said:



			Even with the best of practices we can only reduce the risk, it also needs everyone to do their part as it can just take the one person to infect lots who are following the rules. Only once do you need to forget or drop your guard and you can be susceptible to that one persons lack of.

Its also an overall risk, staying home and zero contact? Go food shopping and pick up medication? See people in the park? Every action changes the overall risk profile slightly, it isn’t yes/no as someone with a 1% risk can get it and someone with a 99% risk could not.

In the end we are all moving about, interacting, touching, breathing etc, it is just less are coming closer to others but with schools and shops open plus workplaces etc then transfer WILL happen.
		
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But there's also been over 6 months for all people to hone/adapt their behaviour to reduce the risk of transfer


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			But there's also been over 6 months for all people to hone/adapt their behaviour to reduce the risk of transfer
		
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I agree, I feel I am personally a lot better at things now that I was when it was new. I have adapted and grown to accept and be accustomed to the new ways. I try to follow the rules as best I can but that won’t stop me getting it completely. I have had two winter colds already this year and I barely go outside or even see people beyond the school gate and once a week at the supermarket. I try to avoid people as best I can on walks etc.

There are people who clamour greatly for the old ways of pre-Covid, plus the much discussed weariness of all the rules and regulations, which lead to little and then larger slips.

We are all different, we are all individuals with a hugely varied range of social and personal situations, the rules have tried to accommodate as many as possible but this has lead to both those who try to push each rule to their extreme and find loopholes OR those who bend or even outright disregard the rules altogether.

People are trying to find that balance, between the old ways and the new, that will bring along some risk of transmission, even if all rules are followed.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 4, 2020)

We both caught it despite being really careful, following guidelines and hands, space, face ad finitum. We've never found out where we caught it but did feel as if we'd been careless somehow. It's not a nice feeling to feel unwell and at the same time weirdly guilty and like a leper.

Some posts above suggest others may well have thought the same about us...


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I’m more than a bit confused how uk has managed to rack up way over half a million positive covid tests in a month. That’s an incredible number, if I wanted to go herd immunity I’d be happy with half a million a month catching it! (plus all the untested/asymptomatic)

There’s still just the two primary ways to get it right?
Touch something with the virus on it then shove your fingers in one of the holes in your face
Come into contact with an airborne droplet that enters through one of the holes in your face

And masks, hand sanitizer, gloves, sunglasses, soap & water, keeping distanced, staying at home etc all create barriers & reduce the chances of the above happening… but more than half a million times in just a month those safeguards have failed, what the hell has happened?
		
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Because as per all the other highly densely populated areas unless you close the whole place down then the virus will be transmitted regardless of how much protection you take 

We had 6 months of pubs , shops , restaurants open - even with the best protection in the world it’s going to get transmitted - just like the flu or a cold 

People have adapted the way they live their life but you will never stop it being transmitted within a heavily populated area unless you shut everyone away. 

We are also testing far more than ever before and maybe more than other countries


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## Robster59 (Dec 4, 2020)

larmen said:



			In my OPINION it is complacency. In March we washed our shopping before we put it into the kitchen, but since about end of April that stopped.
		
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We still do that.


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## Billysboots (Dec 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			We both caught it despite being really careful, following guidelines and hands, space, face ad finitum. We've never found out where we caught it but did feel as if we'd been careless somehow. It's not a nice feeling to feel unwell and at the same time weirdly guilty and like a leper.

Some posts above suggest others may well have thought the same about us...
		
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I was beyond paranoid about catching the virus and was ridiculously careful as a consequence. It didn’t stop me catching it.

All it would seem to need is to be within the same space as someone who coughs or sneezes, and if you let your guard down even slightly you run the risk of being infected.


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## Slab (Dec 4, 2020)

I get that transfer will still happen, I get that infection will still happen and I get that there's no eradication without complete shutdown, that’s not really what I commented on

Its more than half a million positive cases in _just _30 days coming _seven _months _after _everyone was told how you can catch it & how to reduce the odds of catching it… *half a million! * 

Its the sheer number of current infections that's staggering, not the fact that its still out there as a risk


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 4, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			We still do that.
		
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We have never done it, but we have taken other measures. Everyone is free to determine what is appropriate within the rules.

I personally didn’t consider that a significant pathway for us considering our other sources of risk. We have focussed on what is riskiest for us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I get that transfer will still happen, I get that infection will still happen and I get that there's no eradication without complete shutdown, that’s not really what I commented on

Its more than half a million positive cases in _just _30 days coming _seven _months _after _everyone was told how you can catch it & how to reduce the odds of catching it… *half a million! *

Its the sheer number of current infections that's staggering, not the fact that its still out there as a risk
		
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Unfortunately it is the case that as me and my Mrs look around and through my families network of friends and acquaintances, we see breaking of the rules all over the place.

Why is this the case?  It really baffles me.  It can't be lack of understanding of what we are being asked to do - as we are talking about intelligent people, and none of them can cite money-pressures as a mitigation for their behaviour (they are all comfortably off individuals and families).  I can only think that there must be insufficient (perhaps not a total lack of) trust in and respect for those telling us what we must do, and that is used to justify and validate the decisions that they make around their actions - justification of selfishness - I just can't think of any other reason.

If I really don't want to do something, and my mindset is 'self' - I will look for any justification to avoid doing it, and once I have identified that justification and it is set in my thinking then denial of the risk to myself and others of my actions becomes quite easy and it is sustainable.   Perhaps the only thing that can break this mindset for an individual is something going very badly wrong.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I get that transfer will still happen, I get that infection will still happen and I get that there's no eradication without complete shutdown, that’s not really what I commented on

Its more than half a million positive cases in _just _30 days coming _seven _months _after _everyone was told how you can catch it & how to reduce the odds of catching it… *half a million! *

Its the sheer number of current infections that's staggering, not the fact that its still out there as a risk
		
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Because there has been a ramp up in testing , the cold weather has started to increase the virus transmissions . There was prob just as many cases back in March but a lack of testing at the time won’t ever give the true number.


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## Slab (Dec 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately it is the case that as me and my Mrs look around and through my families network of friends and acquaintances, we see breaking of the rules all over the place.

Why is this the case?  It really baffles me.  It can't be lack of understanding of what we are being asked to do - as we are talking about intelligent people, and none of them can cite money-pressures as a mitigation for their behaviour (they are all comfortably off individuals and families).  *I can only think that there must be insufficient (perhaps not a total lack of) trust in and respect for those telling us what we must do, *and that is used to justify and validate the decisions that they make around their actions - justification of selfishness - I just can't think of any other reason.

If I really don't want to do something, I will look for any justification to avoid doing it, and once I have identified that justification and it is set in my thinking then denial of the risk to myself and others of my actions becomes quite easy and it is sustainable.   Perhaps the only thing that can break this mindset for an individual is something going very badly wrong.
		
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I get why you'd think that but I don't believe this is in anyway political, its far more likely to be a social problem


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## BiMGuy (Dec 4, 2020)

From the start of this there has been a great many people who have looked to find loopholes to avoid the rules because they somehow think they shouldn't apply to them. 

Then there is another group who are pretending they don't understand the rules. I know a few who are otherwise intelligent, but don't like the colour of the current government. 

Then there are the genuinely stupid and those that just don't care. Which is probably the biggest group. 

But when you add it them all together, we get a very large group who could be adding to the spread despite everyone else's efforts. Given how contagious covid is. That has a huge impact on numbers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I get why you'd think that but I don't believe this is in anyway political, its far more likely to be a social problem
		
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I'm not suggesting it is political or scientific.  It is individuals looking to justify their actions - actions that they know are selfish and not justifiable - unless  they can find a justification - so yes societal.  I am looking at a very specific sector of society - affluent, white, middle class and educated - one that perhaps should really know better - and yet...

And yes I know that what I am doing tomorrow is in the eyes of some not justifiable - but it is within the rules, and I know with 100% certainty that our precautions will be much more 'severe' than 'lax' in their application.  Else we and I would not be doing it.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 4, 2020)

One of my shift colleagues is apparently going to be having 16 people in their house on Christmas Day, then come into work as we are on 12 hour nights. Covid for me as a Christmas present by the look of things.

Total idiots......In fairness she is not happy about it but her partner is not overly intelligent in matters of how your actions can impact others


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## Slab (Dec 4, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			From the start of this there has been a great many people who have looked to find loopholes to avoid the rules because they somehow think they shouldn't apply to them.

Then there is another group who are pretending they don't understand the rules. I know a few who are otherwise intelligent, but don't like the colour of the current government.

Then there are the genuinely stupid and those that just don't care. Which is probably the biggest group.

But when you add it them all together, we get a very large group who could be adding to the spread despite everyone else's efforts. Given how contagious covid is. That has a huge impact on numbers.
		
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Yeah, We know that unfortunately for all the people taking care not to spread it and all the people taking care not to catch it, some of them will still spread it/catch it.
Excluding the former, how many people does it mean then that just don’t give a crap in order for half a million to catch it in just 30 days!  

It’s a mindboggling number and i think it requires many many millions to be in the latter group


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2020)

Five girls in a house in London all head home to their parents for the Christmas break - having already met up with other London-based households of friends.  When home they get together and meet up indoors with other groups of friends gathered from home town and across the UK...after Christmas the London group will head back to London - the other friends will head back to their family homes, plus to wherever about the UK they now live.  Brilliant.

Or they might not.  

My daughter (lives local) knows that we are not at all happy if that happens, though I think she may exclude herself (not so much through our disapproval as through her own awareness)


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## Tashyboy (Dec 4, 2020)

When this Covid first started taking prominence in the UK Feb/ March, I had been talking to friends in Italy a few weeks previous and they were quite frankly “bricking it”. They were a few weeks in front of us and it was not pretty.
On Sunday I got a message saying one of me Bessie pals in Italy has Covid. Seen today’s message. He is in ICU. He is having a tracheostomy today and will be in a bad way for a minimum few weeks if all goes well. But it don’t look good. 
Just read on Sky news that Yesterday, Italy had its worst death totals so far during this pandemic. This Covid has not gone away by miles and why the hell anyone would want to risk catching it for the sake of a turkey dinner on Christmas Day is beyond me.
At the moment I feel like Ave been kicked in the goolies hearing that news from Italy.
Get well soon Alfredo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2020)

There is another message that we could have had in the lead up to Christmas - though as we have reflected here - it probably wouldn't have made a lot of difference for a lot of folks.


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## chellie (Dec 4, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			We both caught it despite being really careful, following guidelines and hands, space, face ad finitum. We've never found out where we caught it but did feel as if we'd been careless somehow. It's not a nice feeling to feel unwell and at the same time weirdly guilty and like a leper.

Some posts above suggest others may well have thought the same about us...
		
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I think it can be caught through the eyes.

Should we be wearing masks and visors.


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## Reemul (Dec 4, 2020)

Half a million a month sounds a lot, still take 12 years to infect everyone at that current rate which is a long time


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## AmandaJR (Dec 4, 2020)

chellie said:



			I think it can be caught through the eyes.

Should we be wearing masks and visors. 

Click to expand...

I've always averted or closed my eyes around anyone with sniffles. Harks back to when I ran marathons and wanted to avoid getting sick before a race and saw a documentary where the nasty purple spikey germs got in through the eyes.

Perhaps those visors are a better option all round.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 4, 2020)

Watched "Surviving Covid" on Ch4 - makes for some sobering viewing.


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## IainP (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I’m more than a bit confused how uk has managed to rack up way over half a million positive covid tests in a month. That’s an incredible number, if I wanted to go herd immunity I’d be happy with half a million a month catching it! (plus all the untested/asymptomatic) 

There’s still just the two primary ways to get it right?
Touch something with the virus on it then shove your fingers in one of the holes in your face
Come into contact with an airborne droplet that enters through one of the holes in your face

And masks, hand sanitizer, gloves, sunglasses, soap & water, keeping distanced, staying at home etc all create barriers & reduce the chances of the above happening… but more than half a million times in just a month those safeguards have failed, what the hell has happened?
		
Click to expand...

There is a certain % of the population who appear to not be bothering, but also as shown on here plenty who have tried to be very careful but succumbed. It is in part likely to just how widespread it became in the 1st wave.
Keep in mind the UK is in the top 10% of testing per population, and 44th in cases per population.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 4, 2020)

Slab said:



			I’m more than a bit confused how uk has managed to rack up way over half a million positive covid tests in a month. That’s an incredible number, if I wanted to go herd immunity I’d be happy with half a million a month catching it! (plus all the untested/asymptomatic) 

There’s still just the two primary ways to get it right?
Touch something with the virus on it then shove your fingers in one of the holes in your face
Come into contact with an airborne droplet that enters through one of the holes in your face

And masks, hand sanitizer, gloves, sunglasses, soap & water, keeping distanced, staying at home etc all create barriers & reduce the chances of the above happening… but more than half a million times in just a month those safeguards have failed, what the hell has happened?
		
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you have left out the most prevalent method, though it is very close to "airborne droplet".
It is aerosol effect, which is breathing in expelled air of others, some or one of whom is infected.
Droplets method was thought to be the only airborne method, and thus SD of 2 meters came in, because that was the limit of the distance such droplets could carry.
But in aerosol method the SD doesn't come into it INDOORS ( sorry for the shout, my bold option is gone )
Indoors, the air is mulling around for some time, similar to expelled tobacco smoke, so others air gets breathed in , more than once maybe.
Outdoors , of course, no problem.

That is why we had the second spike, pubs etc open, more time spent indoors than out.
That why Xmas relaxation will be not good , to put it mildly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			you have left out the most prevalent method, though it is very close to "airborne droplet".
It is aerosol effect, which is breathing in expelled air of others, some or one of whom is infected.
Droplets method was thought to be the only airborne method, and thus SD of 2 meters came in, because that was the limit of the distance such droplets could carry.
But in aerosol method the SD doesn't come into it INDOORS ( sorry for the shout, my bold option is gone )
Indoors, the air is mulling around for some time, similar to expelled tobacco smoke, so others air gets breathed in , more than once maybe.
Outdoors , of course, no problem.

That is why we had the second spike, pubs etc open, more time spent indoors than out.
T*hat why Xmas relaxation will be not good , to put it mildly*.
		
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Indeed hence the strong and rather emotional message from the Canadian Premier of Manitoba about Christmas in the vid I posted.


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## bluewolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That is why we had the second spike, pubs etc open, more time spent indoors than out.
That why Xmas relaxation will be not good , to put it mildly.
		
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Not trying to dispute this, but have you actual evidence that Pubs are one of the main reasons for recent infection rates. Almost everyone I know that has had COVID is quite adamant that the root cause has been either work or school.


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## GB72 (Dec 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not trying to dispute this, but have you actual evidence that Pubs are one of the main reasons for recent infection rates. Almost everyone I know that has had COVID is quite adamant that the root cause has been either work or school.
		
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I know there is the weather conditions etc but levels stayed low even after pubs first opened. Perhaps more were sitting outdoors then


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 4, 2020)

Lost another staff member today. Not an ICU nurse but someone that a lot of the staff knew. Was only confirmed as positive on Wednesday and declined suddenly last night. Only 35 and a mum of a little 6 year old.


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## NearHull (Dec 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Lost another staff member today. Not an ICU nurse but someone that a lot of the staff knew. Was only confirmed as positive on Wednesday and declined suddenly last night. Only 35 and a mum of a little 6 year old.
		
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I have followed this thread with interest over the past 6 or 7 months and somehow to me it’s become a bit of a theoretical discussion of a subject that has not impacted my family or friends, but your post just pulled me up short and brought some tears to my eyes.  The suddenness, the young age of the lady and the plight of the child really got to me.  It’s such a sad situation, i can’t think of any words that help that family.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 5, 2020)

One thing this pandemic has done has just how stupid and utterly selfish a big percentage of the human race is. Its really quite depressing.


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## Ethan (Dec 5, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not trying to dispute this, but have you actual evidence that Pubs are one of the main reasons for recent infection rates. Almost everyone I know that has had COVID is quite adamant that the root cause has been either work or school.
		
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It is quite difficult to pin down the place of exposure unless this is an obvious case from whom it seems reasonable to assume you got it. When tracers look back at where you have been, they tend to default to the places you have spent most time even though those are not necessarily the places where the exposure was greatest.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 5, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not trying to dispute this, but have you actual evidence that Pubs are one of the main reasons for recent infection rates. Almost everyone I know that has had COVID is quite adamant that the root cause has been either work or school.
		
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No, I don't have evidence, if you mean the sort when politicians and lawyers say, " there is no evidence that.....", because in the absolute terms they are
wanting ,it would be necessary to show that the virus could not have been contracted in any other place.
And that is what they know cannot be done.
But, being reasonable, if you accept that aerosol spread is a prime method of contracting the virus, then pubs ,being venues of ( large) indoor gathering with much relaxed and uninhibited conversation, must be places where the virus will be spread.
To deny that is denying an  inconvenient truth.

And I didn't say only pubs, I did say etc😀


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## Tashyboy (Dec 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, I don't have evidence, if you mean the sort when politicians and lawyers say, " there is no evidence that.....", because in the absolute terms they are
wanting ,it would be necessary to show that the virus could not have been contracted in any other place.
And that is what they know cannot be done.
But, being reasonable, if you accept that aerosol spread is a prime method of contracting the virus, then pubs ,being venues of ( large) indoor gathering with much relaxed and uninhibited conversation, must be places where the virus will be spread.
To deny that is denying an  inconvenient truth.

And I didn't say only pubs, I did say etc😀
		
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It’s not just that pubs help spread, to what extent argue amongst yourselves. But it’s a similar argument to those that say this Covid is not that bad in terms of deaths compared to normal death years. The Covid deaths are what they because of the measures taken. If it was a free for all re no tiers or national lockdown and all the other measures taken. How many deaths would there be then. Its the same with the pubs if they were open. How bad would it be then.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Not trying to dispute this, but have you actual evidence that Pubs are one of the main reasons for recent infection rates. Almost everyone I know that has had COVID is quite adamant that the root cause has been either work or school.
		
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It's perception. There was a theatre owner on the news saying her patrons feel safe in their theatres .. was the most stupid comment I've ever heard. You can't see covid. You don't know if it's in the air or not. If people "feel" safe doesn't mean it is at all

I feel safe at work but could easily get it from work.

People see schools as a mixing pot and just see them as unsafe .. it's a feeling


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## Billysboots (Dec 5, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			One thing this pandemic has done has just how stupid and utterly selfish a big percentage of the human race is. Its really quite depressing.
		
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In many ways I have found that more depressing than the virus itself. I’ve said it many times, we really have seen the best and worst in people these last few months. And the latter makes my heart sink.


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## bluewolf (Dec 5, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, I don't have evidence, if you mean the sort when politicians and lawyers say, " there is no evidence that.....", because in the absolute terms they are
wanting ,it would be necessary to show that the virus could not have been contracted in any other place.
And that is what they know cannot be done.
But, being reasonable, if you accept that aerosol spread is a prime method of contracting the virus, then pubs ,being venues of ( large) indoor gathering with much relaxed and uninhibited conversation, must be places where the virus will be spread.
To deny that is denying an  inconvenient truth.

And I didn't say only pubs, I did say etc😀
		
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As I said, I wasn’t disputing that pubs are a contributor to the spread. I also didn’t once think that you said they were the only place. However, I do think it’s unfortunate that pubs are quite often singled out as main contributors when there’s not really anything other than opinion to back this up. 👍


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## Tashyboy (Dec 5, 2020)

Just seen some photos re the Christmas market in Nottingham. It is shocking. Folk look like cattle crammed together. That’s four weeks wasted. I know people have been idiots but how the authority’s have allowed this is beyond me.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 5, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Just seen some photos re the Christmas market in Nottingham. It is shocking. Folk look like cattle crammed together. That’s four weeks wasted. I know people have been idiots but how the authority’s have allowed this is beyond me.
		
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Photo popped up on FB of friends of mine taking their kids to see Santa.. all done social distancing super imposed that he was nearby 

Then I saw the pic on the sleigh .. all the kids .. that's 4 families kids!! Over 6 for one... Mental


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 5, 2020)

HID went to a large local garden centre. Wanted to get some gift vouchers for the in-laws. Queued for 45 minutes to get in and park (more patience than I'd have had). Inside it was apparently mayhem, especially around the Christmas decorations. No social distancing and a total free for all. People are just lazy and apathetic to covid and the risk now. She got in, got to customer services and got out. Won't be going back until after Covid


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID went to a large local garden centre. Wanted to get some gift vouchers for the in-laws. Queued for 45 minutes to get in and park (more patience than I'd have had). Inside it was apparently mayhem, especially around the Christmas decorations. No social distancing and a total free for all. People are just lazy and apathetic to covid and the risk now. She got in, got to customer services and got out. Won't be going back until after Covid
		
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We had a similar experience at a big one in B*g***t a few weeks ago - with the christmas stuff just inside the entrance, loads of folk stopping and browsing, and everyone else squeezing past each other - and we decided we just weren’t going to go back.  I suspect today that it would have been the same there as what you described for where your other half went.


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## Reemul (Dec 6, 2020)

Yeah I popped to the Range last night for something and the upstairs which was Xmas stuff only was absolutely rammed, i took one look and left. I do feel we need to get out and about and help the economy but in some places it is madness.

I also went in to town at 9am yesterday spent an hour getting what I needed, it was wet, windy and quiet. Anything else I could not get I ordered from Amazon.

We do need to spread out through the day rather than all going in 11am - 3pm and support our local towns.

I am also going out for a meal tonight , it's my sons 14th birthday today. Be interesting to see how it goes as well


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## Fade and Die (Dec 6, 2020)

Was impressed how straightforward it was to get a COVID test for me and my two lads. Fill details in on the gov website, got offered a list of appointments same day. Clicked on one. Turned up on time, 3 tests done and 24 hrs later got the results. (All negative thank dog) all pretty seamless. 👍


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## patricks148 (Dec 6, 2020)

i 'm sure it was a mistake or not but had a text from the doctors on Friday saying as i was in the over 55 group, i could ring up and make an appointment  for my anti Covid vacine next week???

had one last week similar for them for a  flu jab.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2020)

Really impressed at the shops near me. Went to a retail park, sensible queuing, not too many in shops, masks everywhere, exactly as it should be.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 6, 2020)

Well well well, Nottingham has shut down its market due to “ unprecedented footfall”. The city had one of the highest Covid counts in the country a couple of months ago. They get it down then have a Christmas market. Planks.


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Well well well, Nottingham has shut down its market due to “ unprecedented footfall”. The city had one of the highest Covid counts in the country a couple of months ago. They get it down then have a Christmas market. Planks.
		
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It was inevitable but then again you give anyone in tier 3 something different to do and people will flock to it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 6, 2020)

Worn a mask when shopping since March, can put my hand on my heart and state I believe me and my family have done what the Government has asked and more.

Done my exercise, running and golf as per the rules and apart from the odd trip to the doctors, Flu jab etc and then sadly an hour a day to the hospice in the last 2 weeks of the m-in-laws life I tonight will complete the 9 days of isolation as requested by the App.

It really, really has been dificult, no way did I think last saturday that 9 days would be an issue, such a difference of not being able to just go for a run or a walk or whatever, just shows how that little bit of freedom we’ve been allowed can mske a difference.

Got my running kit laid out ready for the morning and I’m off out, rain, hail or shine.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Worn a mask when shopping since March, can put my hand on my heart and state I believe me and my family have done what the Government has asked and more.

Done my exercise, running and golf as per the rules and apart from the odd trip to the doctors, Flu jab etc and then sadly an hour a day to the hospice in the last 2 weeks of the m-in-laws life I tonight will complete the 9 days of isolation as requested by the App.

It really, really has been dificult, no way did I think last saturday that 9 days would be an issue, such a difference of not being able to just go for a run or a walk or whatever, just shows how that little bit of freedom we’ve been allowed can mske a difference.

Got my running kit laid out ready for the morning and I’m off out, rain, hail or shine.
		
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Gotta agree with those 9 days bit. Ave said to Missis T that if we lived in an apartment I would be in a  sanitorium now.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 6, 2020)

HID went into town for the in-laws. Shops not open until 11.00 and by 10.35 when she arrived places like the Range were snaking around the car park and Primark was a massive queue. In fact most shops had a long queue so you can imagine the scrum and lack of distancing once the doors open. Fortunately she only needed to go to a jeweller so missed all the fun and games


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## larmen (Dec 6, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID went to a large local garden centre. Wanted to get some gift vouchers for the in-laws. Queued for 45 minutes to get in and park (more patience than I'd have had). Inside it was apparently mayhem, especially around the Christmas decorations. No social distancing and a total free for all. People are just lazy and apathetic to covid and the risk now. She got in, got to customer services and got out. Won't be going back until after Covid
		
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We went to squires in Sunbury on Saturday and it was a delight. Never have been more relaxed to buy a tree and some decoration as well as some gardening bits on top.

The tree thing was so organised, I hope they do it like that every year from now on. Pick a tree, get a number, pay and they put it in your car at the other exit. No 20 families pushing large trolleys through tiny paths like it usually is.


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## Billysboots (Dec 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i 'm sure it was a mistake or not but had a text from the doctors on Friday saying as i was in the over 55 group, i could ring up and make an appointment  for my anti Covid vacine next week???

had one last week similar for them for a  flu jab.
		
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I’m certainly surprised to hear that.


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## road2ruin (Dec 6, 2020)

Somewhat randomly my parents announced that they were spending Christmas alone this year as they felt that the risk was high. I only say it’s random as they have been pretty relaxed throughout the whole thing and when the initial lockdown ended we stayed at theirs quite a bit in the summer as they’re right on the beach so our daughter loves it there. 

I think the difference is that at that point a vaccine was a possibility, something that might happen next year however now it’s a reality they have decided it’s be a bit silly to take the additional risk. I think a fair few on their estate had already made the decision so there may have been an element of peer pressure as well. 

Initially we were a little put out, not because of us but because our daughter loves seeing her grandparents and we don’t have a huge family so it’d be Christmas Day for just the three of us which wouldn’t be very exciting for her. That said we respected their decision and were preparing how we would make the day as fun as possible without the family aspect. 

As luck would have it two of our friends families have found their parents have done the same and also found themselves persona non grata with their folks. We’ve decided to have a friends Christmas this year, it’s actually something we have discussed in the past but it’d never be feasible as it’d cause WWIII with respective families. So on Christmas Day and Boxing Day there will be 10 of us, 6 adults and 4 children. 3 of the children are in the same school bubble so we’re all sharing a lot of the same germs etc. 

Quite looking forward to it now although will be very different from our usual Christmas however that’ll be the same doe most.


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## Old Skier (Dec 6, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Somewhat randomly my parents announced that they were spending Christmas alone this year as they felt that the risk was high. I only say it’s random as they have been pretty relaxed throughout the whole thing and when the initial lockdown ended we stayed at theirs quite a bit in the summer as they’re right on the beach so our daughter loves it there.

I think the difference is that at that point a vaccine was a possibility, something that might happen next year however now it’s a reality they have decided it’s be a bit silly to take the additional risk. I think a fair few on their estate had already made the decision so there may have been an element of peer pressure as well.

Initially we were a little put out, not because of us but because our daughter loves seeing her grandparents and we don’t have a huge family so it’d be Christmas Day for just the three of us which wouldn’t be very exciting for her. That said we respected their decision and were preparing how we would make the day as fun as possible without the family aspect.

As luck would have it two of our friends families have found their parents have done the same and also found themselves persona non grata with their folks. We’ve decided to have a friends Christmas this year, it’s actually something we have discussed in the past but it’d never be feasible as it’d cause WWIII with respective families. So on Christmas Day and Boxing Day there will be 10 of us, 6 adults and 4 children. 3 of the children are in the same school bubble so we’re all sharing a lot of the same germs etc.

Quite looking forward to it now although will be very different from our usual Christmas however that’ll be the same doe most.
		
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Just had the same “stay away message” from MIL today. That’s one less 5 hour journey and trip around the M25.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 6, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Somewhat randomly my parents announced that they were spending Christmas alone this year as they felt that the risk was high. I only say it’s random as they have been pretty relaxed throughout the whole thing and when the initial lockdown ended we stayed at theirs quite a bit in the summer as they’re right on the beach so our daughter loves it there.

I think the difference is that at that point a vaccine was a possibility, something that might happen next year however now it’s a reality they have decided it’s be a bit silly to take the additional risk. I think a fair few on their estate had already made the decision so there may have been an element of peer pressure as well.

Initially we were a little put out, not because of us but because our daughter loves seeing her grandparents and we don’t have a huge family so it’d be Christmas Day for just the three of us which wouldn’t be very exciting for her. That said we respected their decision and were preparing how we would make the day as fun as possible without the family aspect.

As luck would have it two of our friends families have found their parents have done the same and also found themselves persona non grata with their folks. We’ve decided to have a friends Christmas this year, it’s actually something we have discussed in the past but it’d never be feasible as it’d cause WWIII with respective families. So on Christmas Day and Boxing Day there will be 10 of us, 6 adults and 4 children. 3 of the children are in the same school bubble so we’re all sharing a lot of the same germs etc.

Quite looking forward to it now although will be very different from our usual Christmas however that’ll be the same doe most.
		
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The in-laws have already said they aren't coming to us this year. I don't have parents so it'll be HID and myself. Quite looking forward to it. No time pressures to get dinner served on time for the relatives, lie in, and we can eat and rink what and when we want. Actually looking forward to it. We probably don't spend enough quality time as a couple so this should be a lovely "us" day


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## Ethan (Dec 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i 'm sure it was a mistake or not but had a text from the doctors on Friday saying as i was in the over 55 group, i could ring up and make an appointment  for my anti Covid vacine next week???

had one last week similar for them for a  flu jab.
		
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I think it was a mistake, over 55s won't be called up for a while, but accept the offer anyway!


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## williamalex1 (Dec 6, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Somewhat randomly my parents announced that they were spending Christmas alone this year as they felt that the risk was high. I only say it’s random as they have been pretty relaxed throughout the whole thing and when the initial lockdown ended we stayed at theirs quite a bit in the summer as they’re right on the beach so our daughter loves it there.

I think the difference is that at that point a vaccine was a possibility, something that might happen next year however now it’s a reality they have decided it’s be a bit silly to take the additional risk. I think a fair few on their estate had already made the decision so there may have been an element of peer pressure as well.

Initially we were a little put out, not because of us but because our daughter loves seeing her grandparents and we don’t have a huge family so it’d be Christmas Day for just the three of us which wouldn’t be very exciting for her. That said we respected their decision and were preparing how we would make the day as fun as possible without the family aspect.

As luck would have it two of our friends families have found their parents have done the same and also found themselves persona non grata with their folks. We’ve decided to have a friends Christmas this year, it’s actually something we have discussed in the past but it’d never be feasible as it’d cause WWIII with respective families. So on Christmas Day and Boxing Day there will be 10 of us, 6 adults and 4 children. 3 of the children are in the same school bubble so we’re all sharing a lot of the same germs etc.

Quite looking forward to it now although will be very different from our usual Christmas however that’ll be the same doe most.
		
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We made the same decision, hopefully next year I'll be able to see and cuddle my Daughter, grand daughter, grand sons and all of my great grand children. Without them killing me off


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 6, 2020)

Good to read of some sensible people making logical decisions about Christmas, things being as they are.
Pity that they seem to be in the minority


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## SocketRocket (Dec 7, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Somewhat randomly my parents announced that they were spending Christmas alone this year as they felt that the risk was high. I only say it’s random as they have been pretty relaxed throughout the whole thing and when the initial lockdown ended we stayed at theirs quite a bit in the summer as they’re right on the beach so our daughter loves it there.

I think the difference is that at that point a vaccine was a possibility, something that might happen next year however now it’s a reality they have decided it’s be a bit silly to take the additional risk. I think a fair few on their estate had already made the decision so there may have been an element of peer pressure as well.

Initially we were a little put out, not because of us but because our daughter loves seeing her grandparents and we don’t have a huge family so it’d be Christmas Day for just the three of us which wouldn’t be very exciting for her. That said we respected their decision and were preparing how we would make the day as fun as possible without the family aspect.

As luck would have it two of our friends families have found their parents have done the same and also found themselves persona non grata with their folks. We’ve decided to have a friends Christmas this year, it’s actually something we have discussed in the past but it’d never be feasible as it’d cause WWIII with respective families. So on Christmas Day and Boxing Day there will be 10 of us, 6 adults and 4 children. 3 of the children are in the same school bubble so we’re all sharing a lot of the same germs etc.

Quite looking forward to it now although will be very different from our usual Christmas however that’ll be the same doe most.
		
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10 of you.    Jeez!


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## road2ruin (Dec 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			10 of you.    Jeez!
		
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Yep, why not? All within the rules. The children are all at school today bar the youngest who isn’t at school yet. 

All the adults wfh and we’re not seeing parents or other elderly relatives so not like we’re going to spread it around. Given our kids are all in the same bubble at school we’d be likely to get it anyway through them so spending a couple of days at Christmas together is hardly OTT


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Yep, why not? All within the rules. The children are all at school today bar the youngest who isn’t at school yet.

All the adults wfh and we’re not seeing parents or other elderly relatives so not like we’re going to spread it around. Given our kids are all in the same bubble at school we’d be likely to get it anyway through them so spending a couple of days at Christmas together is hardly OTT
		
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The challenge with the Christmas 5 days ‘three households’ rule is that over the 5 days nobody of the three households can meet indoors with any individual other than those in the three households together on Christmas Day. That’s the challenge that we have had to address - now sorted.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The challenge with the Christmas 5 days ‘three households’ rule is that over the 5 days nobody of the three households can meet indoors with any individual other than those in the three households together on Christmas Day. That’s the challenge that we have had to address - now sorted.
		
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I would have thought the challenge to be addressed is Covid .
The Christmas rules are to my mind a recipe for increased cases ( putting it mildly).
Why do people want to go as far as these Christmas rules will allow them to, when they must know the virus will spread as a result.
Baffles me.


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## GB72 (Dec 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I would have thought the challenge to be addressed is Covid .
The Christmas rules are to my mind a recipe for increased cases ( putting it mildly).
Why do people want to go as far as these Christmas rules will allow them to, when they must know the virus will spread as a result.
Baffles me.
		
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Because some people need it. My wife has not seen her parents for nearly a year now, neither of use have had any social interaction outside of between ourselves and people we work with since the end of October and are facing another couple of months of the same after Xmas. Both of us are struggling a bit with this and so to be allowed some social interaction for even a few days is really important to us at the moment.


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## Imurg (Dec 7, 2020)

I think the, almost, inevitable Xmas spike is a necessary evil for the sake of an awful lot of people's mental health.
It's probably the most social time of the year and a lot of people haven't been able to do any for a long time.
Yes, it's going to cause a spike
But this time I think, as a nation, we have to suck it up and hope people don't go overboard


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I think the, almost, inevitable Xmas spike is a necessary evil for the sake of an awful lot of people's mental health.
It's probably the most social time of the year and a lot of people haven't been able to do any for a long time.
Yes, it's going to cause a spike
But this time I think, as a nation, we have to suck it up and hope people don't go overboard
		
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Well it's OK to say that - but I fear the Nottingham example suggests that people will indeed be going overboard...

On 'the challenge' - the challenge for us all on an ongoing basis is obviously living with Covid.

But the challenge for many over the Christmas 5-days will be how they can have their cake and eat it over that period, and when they realise that within the rules they can't - then many will go into denial over reality and the rules, and throw themselves overboard believing that they are exceptional swimmers and drowning doesn't come to such as them.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 7, 2020)

Is it just me who watches the news and sometimes gets that feeling it's a disaster movie playing out that I've seen before? This morning with talk about the vaccine being given tomorrow and the light at the end of the tunnel gave me that sensation again.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Is it just me who watches the news and sometimes gets that feeling it's a disaster movie playing out that I've seen before? This morning with talk about the vaccine being given tomorrow and the light at the end of the tunnel gave me that sensation again.
		
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Stop watching zombie films


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I think the, almost, inevitable Xmas spike is a necessary evil for the sake of an awful lot of people's mental health.
It's probably the most social time of the year and a lot of people haven't been able to do any for a long time.
*Yes, it's going to cause a spike*
But this time I think, as a nation, we have to suck it up and hope people don't go overboard
		
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That doesn't sound too bad as written. Sounds worse if you say people going to get sick, end up in ICU or die.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That doesn't sound too bad as written. Sounds worse if you say people going to get sick, end up in ICU or die.
		
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And when their families are getting sick or dieing they will blame someone else for allowing it. 

We've got family who are planning on ignoring the rules. They have even got upset with us because we've told them we won't be coming anywhere nere this year. 
They all live in a T3 area which has been in local lockdown for a long time whareas we are T2. Last year one of them came to a family do at Christmas with Flu and spread it to a few of us.

I'm more than happy for it to be just me, HID the two kids and the dog.


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## Italian outcast (Dec 7, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i 'm sure it was a mistake or not but had a text from the doctors on Friday saying as i was in the over 55 group, i could ring up and make an appointment  for my anti Covid vaccine next week???

had one last week similar for them for a  flu jab.
		
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That will be for the 'transponder' vaccine - your selection is probably due to your activities rather than age 
My understanding is Bill Gates et al are seeking to keep closer tabs on some of the more socially disruptive elements of the forum 
You're probably an ideal conduit - they will probably be key-logging your warnings etc


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## DRW (Dec 7, 2020)

Would always be careful of airborne transmission inside that happens quite quickly(well under 15 minutes....) and over a distance, quite an interesting write up here of one such case(plenty more available) :-

:: JKMS :: Journal of Korean Medical Science


to quote but see link above
	





			The 39 environment samples for SARS-CoV-2 were all negative by rRT-PCR. The results of genome sequencing of the three patients were presented as all three cases' genomic types were GH type and identical for each other (data not shown).
		
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## IanM (Dec 7, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Is it just me who watches the news and sometimes gets that feeling it's a disaster movie playing out that I've seen before? This morning with talk about the vaccine being given tomorrow and the light at the end of the tunnel gave me that sensation again.
		
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Stop watching the news.  Get info about restrictions from .govt.uk    They seem to want to present everything as bad.  Can't imagine why?


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## Slab (Dec 7, 2020)

Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken




Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you


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## Imurg (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken

View attachment 33868


Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you
		
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Every one of my kids get zapped by one of those every time they get in the car....
Zap myself at least once a day too...although not for a month.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken

View attachment 33868


Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you
		
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It's an interesting one. My BiL lives in China and when it was rife there you couldn't enter any building, any shop without being zapped by one of these. Even a little corner shop tested you. Here they are barely seen. I've just been to the dentist for a check up this morning and they used one on me. Other than that I'm struggling to think if I have been zapped by one of these elsewhere. For whatever reason, they have not taken off here.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken

View attachment 33868


Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you
		
Click to expand...

Only at the Doctors Surgery.


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## IanM (Dec 7, 2020)

Several times... seen a few pubs and medical places with the hand-held temp checkers


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's an interesting one. My BiL lives in China and when it was rife there you couldn't enter any building, any shop without being zapped by one of these. Even a little corner shop tested you. Here they are barely seen. *I've just been to the dentist for a check up this morning* and they used one on me. Other than that I'm struggling to think if I have been zapped by one of these elsewhere. For whatever reason, they have not taken off here.
		
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You got a check up?  Congratulations; I've been waiting since March for two crowns to be fitted...


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 7, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			You got a check up?  Congratulations; I've been waiting since March for two crowns to be fitted... 

Click to expand...

I'm just a cheapo NHS patient as well. I know people who are on private lists, pay every month, who can't get seen (I know NHS treatment will disappear at some point but I'm holding on)


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken

View attachment 33868


Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you
		
Click to expand...

Some places around my area do temp checks. They can be useful, but not everybody with Covid, especially in the early stages, gets a temp and there are loads of other reasons apart from Covid for a temp, especially at this time of year, so it is at best rather insensitive (in accuracy terms) and non-specific. I think it often serves as ticking the box "doing something". Still, doesn't do any harm and is quick and cheap.

I think enforcing mask-wearing is probably the most useful action shops and public buildings can take.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 7, 2020)

I do hope anyone using one of those thermometers has got a decent properly calibrated one. I've got a cheap amazon one to measure the temperature of my pizza oven and it's about as accurate as I would be with a 2 iron. 
When 1 degree is important, making sure your measuring equipment ir right is critical.


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## Slab (Dec 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's an interesting one. My BiL lives in China and *when it was rife there you couldn't enter any building, any shop without being zapped by one of these. Even a little corner shop tested you. *Here they are barely seen. I've just been to the dentist for a check up this morning and they used one on me. Other than that I'm struggling to think if I have been zapped by one of these elsewhere. For whatever reason, they have not taken off here.
		
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It was the same here, no access to a shop, workplace or public building without a zap (in addition to mask, hand gel etc) If you didn't like it then tough, go home
Maybe it simply doesn't work as a detection method, i dunno but I'd have thought a high temp is something to be looked into

Its lessened now but I still had it taken in a couple of the bigger shops over the weekend & my wife cant enter her work without going through a full size walk-thru version, which prompted me to ask on here since no one really mentions it


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## Slab (Dec 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Some places around my area do temp checks. *They can be useful, but not everybody with Covid, especially in the early stages, gets a temp *and there are loads of other reasons apart from Covid for a temp, especially at this time of year, so it is at best rather insensitive (in accuracy terms) and non-specific. I think it often serves as ticking the box "doing something". Still, doesn't do any harm and is quick and cheap.

*I think enforcing mask-wearing is probably the most useful action shops and public buildings can take*.
		
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I don't think it was used to clear anyone of having it, i.e a normal temp didn't ever equal no covid. It was more to ID those who had a high temp that would indicate that a covid test might be a sensible next step
I can see that right now other ailments might also show a high temp as a symptom but the UK had all summer to use this low cost way to check millions of people every week to see if they have one of the symptoms (after all in the UK folks were/are going out shopping/public places 4,5,6 days a week) 

I also agree with the mask think, despite the lack of cases its still common as muck here with some places more stringent than others (I didn't need it at the golf club yesterday but I did wear one walking to the beach bar)


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			I don't think it was used to clear anyone of having it, i.e a normal temp didn't ever equal no covid. It was more to ID those who had a high temp that would indicate that a covid test might be a sensible next step
I can see that right now other ailments might also show a high temp as a symptom but the UK had all summer to use this low cost way to check millions of people every week to see if they have one of the symptoms (after all in the UK folks were/are going out shopping/public places 4,5,6 days a week)

I also agree with the mask think, despite the lack of cases its still common as muck here with some places more stringent than others (I didn't need it at the golf club yesterday but I did wear one *walking to the beach bar*)
		
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I think you only replied so you could say 'walking to the beach bar', you heartless sod. 

If you walked to a beach bar anywhere around here today, the thermometer would be needed only to determine whether you needed inpatient treatment for hypothermia or not.


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## drdel (Dec 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Another first for me in this year of the pandemic. Turned up for my annual performance review in my pyjamas... 

Click to expand...

Should we assume this is your normal workwear and was your 'performance' up to par?


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## NearHull (Dec 7, 2020)

Mattress tester at Benson Beds?


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## larmen (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken

View attachment 33868


Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you
		
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Legoland, Chessington world of adventures, an da couple of other places which funnily enough were outside entertainment places anyway. We haven't been anywhere indoors.

Funnily enough, it is really the 1st time I can ever remember that none of us (3 at home) had any kind of fever for 10 months now. This taking care of Covid takes care of a lot of other infections as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's an interesting one. My BiL lives in China and when it was rife there you couldn't enter any building, any shop without being zapped by one of these. Even a little corner shop tested you. Here they are barely seen. I've just been to the dentist for a check up this morning and they used one on me. Other than that I'm struggling to think if I have been zapped by one of these elsewhere. For whatever reason, they have not taken off here.
		
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Was zapped going into church on Saturday for our choir recording session.  I too am a bit surprised that 'temperature zapping' is not more widespread even though it is not mandatory for going into any shop, restaurant etc.

BTW - given the 'interest' in my choir recording session expressed here apriori, the recording session was not that easy or comfortable as we strictly adhered to Social Distancing rules and wore masks throughout.  It is not so easy singing more quietly than normal and 'far' apart as that means you can't hear really other voices when singing four part harmony, and masks don't make for comfortable controlled breathing...

Nonetheless it was great that we were able to make the recordings for on-line services to come this month...


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was zapped going into church on Saturday for our choir recording session.  I too am a bit surprised that 'temperature zapping' is not more widespread even though it is not mandatory for going into any shop, restaurant etc
		
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I'm more surprised that so few places seem to have QR codes or paper sheets for people to sign in when they enter. In the least week I've been to Tesco, our local butchers and Morrisons and haven't had to sign in at any of them. I think the only places that I have had to sign in are at the local farmers' market and at my kids football matches.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken

View attachment 33868


Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you
		
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Interestingly I've only had my temperature take at two  places  - a) at the dentist (three times in past two months)  and b) at the driving range at Pedham Place golf centre. The latter was quite a surprise.


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## Imurg (Dec 7, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm more surprised that so few places seem to have QR codes or paper sheets for people to sign in when they enter. In the least week I've been to Tesco, our local butchers and Morrisons and haven't had to sign in at any of them. I think the only places that I have had to sign in are at the local farmers' market and at my kids football matches.
		
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I guess it's down to how long you're likely to be in there and how many other people youre going to come into contact with.
Apparently the average time spent in our tesco is 20 minutes...means some are a lot more but they've all got masks on.
We have to sign in at the club, or did before the Tiers came in - smaller place, longer stay.
I have a QR in the car for anyone that wants to use it ( nobody has) but it means I can sign in after golf to "clear" me from there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2020)

we take the temperature of myself , the wife and daughter every time we go out and the little has hers taken before she goes into Nursery- I also scan the QR code every day , also when going into any establishment


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm more surprised that so few places seem to have QR codes or paper sheets for people to sign in when they enter. In the least week I've been to Tesco, our local butchers and Morrisons and haven't had to sign in at any of them. I think the only places that I have had to sign in are at the local farmers' market and at my kids football matches.
		
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A lot of the pubs in Reading had the QR codes at the front door when we came out of the first lockdown and I've seen them at a few other places here and there. Mainly in food and drink establishments rather than retail outlets


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## Fade and Die (Dec 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Some places around my area do temp checks. They can be useful, but not everybody with Covid, especially in the early stages, gets a temp and there are loads of other reasons apart from Covid for a temp, especially at this time of year, so it is at best rather insensitive (in accuracy terms) and non-specific. *I think it often serves as ticking the box *"doing something". Still, doesn't do any harm and is quick and cheap.

I think enforcing mask-wearing is probably the most useful action shops and public buildings can take.
		
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I think it’s exactly this, all the building sites I visit use one, normally being weilded by the site labourer who asks you questions about your general health and if you have been in contact with anyone with coronavirus. He then writes your name and temperature down and ticks a box! All pretty pointless but it’s now part of the RAMs and a condition of the sites being open.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Maybe I'm just missing it but when someone on here talks about what prevention/avoidance measures are taking place when they go to xyz/abc etc, they never seem to mention having their temp taken

View attachment 33868


Am I just missing the references, is it happening and not mentioned, is it not really a thing in the UK? How many times since 1st lockdown started have you had your temp taken entering a public place?

It seems to be one of the main indicators of covid and even if its not but you still have a high temp, then something is probably wrong with you
		
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My 3 year old gets checked every day at pre school


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55228422

Ethan, there is a table on there showing the difference between the vaccones that are now available. couple sorry now 3 questions if you don’t mind.
1, it shows the Oxford vaccine as having a better results with the lesser dose first time around. Have any of the other vaccines been administered with lesser or more dosage.
2, it mentions that the different vaccines are different types, so what exactly are they trying to “ activate”.
3, could any of these vaccines be  combined for better effectivenes.

Cheers me man.


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## Backache (Dec 8, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55228422

Ethan, there is a table on there showing the difference between the vaccones that are now available. couple sorry now 3 questions if you don’t mind.
1, it shows the Oxford vaccine as having a better results with the lesser dose first time around. Have any of the other vaccines been administered with lesser or more dosage.
2, it mentions that the different vaccines are different types, so what exactly are they trying to “ activate”.
3, could any of these vaccines be  combined for better effectivenes.

Cheers me man.
		
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I will try and answer your questions
1)The other vaccines or at least the Pfizer one had a dose finding study to determine how much to give to get a decent reponse of antibodies, but thereafter everyone got the same dose.

2) They are all trying to activate the same response which is to raise an immune reaction to the virus, The vaccines that have reported so far are all trying to get the response to one particular part of the virus the 'S' or spike protein which is the bit of the outside of the virus that reacts with the receptor to get aentrance to the cell which it infects.
In order to get the immune response to the S protein you have to get the  S protein into the body. The vaccines gaining approval so far do it in different ways tbut they basically get the cells in the body to make the protein. Either by injecting a virus with genes to make the protein into the body (Oxford and Sputnik) or by injeting the genetic material in the form of RNA encapsulated in a lipid for stability and entrance to the cells. (Moderna and Pfizer) But the bodies response they are trying to elicit is the same.

3) There is talk of combining the vaccines but I don't know how serious it is.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2020)

Wondered what all the extra police and security were around the place today

https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...duchess-cambridge-berkshire-hospital-19420984

Excellent boost for the staff in some tricky times (including losing a staff member last week)


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2020)

Backache said:



			I will try and answer your questions
1)The other vaccines or at least the Pfizer one had a dose finding study to determine how much to give to get a decent reponse of antibodies, but thereafter everyone got the same dose.

2) They are all trying to activate the same response which is to raise an immune reaction to the virus, The vaccines that have reported so far are all trying to get the response to one particular part of the virus the 'S' or spike protein which is the bit of the outside of the virus that reacts with the receptor to get aentrance to the cell which it infects.
In order to get the immune response to the S protein you have to get the  S protein into the body. The vaccines gaining approval so far do it in different ways tbut they basically get the cells in the body to make the protein. Either by injecting a virus with genes to make the protein into the body (Oxford and Sputnik) or by injeting the genetic material in the form of RNA encapsulated in a lipid for stability and entrance to the cells. (Moderna and Pfizer) But the bodies response they are trying to elicit is the same.

3) There is talk of combining the vaccines but I don't know how serious it is.
		
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cheers backache me man.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2020)

Backache said:



			I will try and answer your questions
1)The other vaccines or at least the Pfizer one had a dose finding study to determine how much to give to get a decent reponse of antibodies, but thereafter everyone got the same dose.

2) They are all trying to activate the same response which is to raise an immune reaction to the virus, The vaccines that have reported so far are all trying to get the response to one particular part of the virus the 'S' or spike protein which is the bit of the outside of the virus that reacts with the receptor to get aentrance to the cell which it infects.
In order to get the immune response to the S protein you have to get the  S protein into the body. The vaccines gaining approval so far do it in different ways tbut they basically get the cells in the body to make the protein. Either by injecting a virus with genes to make the protein into the body (Oxford and Sputnik) or by injeting the genetic material in the form of RNA encapsulated in a lipid for stability and entrance to the cells. (Moderna and Pfizer) But the bodies response they are trying to elicit is the same.

3) There is talk of combining the vaccines but I don't know how serious it is.
		
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I agree with that. All of them did dose finding, some in earlier studies and some in adaptive studies, larger studies where each phase's results determine the precise shape of the next phase. There are plausible theories behind both a low dose-standard dose regime and mixing two different vaccines as initial and booster, but the latter needs to be tested more formally. 

There are also vaccines in development which are more like the traditional style, where you take the target virus and inactivate or attenuate (weaken) it.


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## GB72 (Dec 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I agree with that. All of them did dose finding, some in earlier studies and some in adaptive studies, larger studies where each phase's results determine the precise shape of the next phase. There are plausible theories behind both a low dose-standard dose regime and mixing two different vaccines as initial and booster, but the latter needs to be tested more formally.

There are also vaccines in development which are more like the traditional style, where you take the target virus and inactivate or attenuate (weaken) it.
		
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What are your current thoughts on the Oxford vaccine. I get the feeling that the press are trying to taint opinions on this one as it is the one that we have backed the strongest and yet my (very much unqualified) opinion is that this is the one that the world as a whole needs to succeed as it is cheap and easier to store and distribute.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			What are your current thoughts on the Oxford vaccine. I get the feeling that the press are trying to taint opinions on this one as it is the one that we have backed the strongest and yet my (very much unqualified) opinion is that this is the one that the world as a whole needs to succeed as it is cheap and easier to store and distribute.
		
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I think it is a very effective vaccine. The results from all 3 vaccines show that the body is pretty good at mounting an immune response to the spike protein if presented properly, and the Oxford/Pfizer/Moderna vaccines all present the protein (or its code, more precisely) in slightly different ways but with little apparent difference. The low-standard dosing regime for Ozford appears to overcome the one potential disadvantage of that one, that it is presented within an inactivated virus which can stimulate its own immune response. And, as you say, the ease of administration is a major advantage and AZ/Oxford offering it at cost makes it much cheaper for health systems, especially less well funded systems, to cope. Unless we are over 80 or a frontline NHS worker, that is the one we will be offered. I am happy to take it.


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## GB72 (Dec 9, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think it is a very effective vaccine. The results from all 3 vaccines show that the body is pretty good at mounting an immune response to the spike protein if presented properly, and the Oxford/Pfizer/Moderna vaccines all present the protein (or its code, more precisely) in slightly different ways but with little apparent difference. The low-standard dosing regime for Ozford appears to overcome the one potential disadvantage of that one, that it is presented within an inactivated virus which can stimulate its own immune response. And, as you say, the ease of administration is a major advantage and AZ/Oxford offering it at cost makes it much cheaper for health systems, especially less well funded systems, to cope. Unless we are over 80 or a frontline NHS worker, that is the one we will be offered. I am happy to take it.
		
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I would have been happy with any of them but then again I volunteered for the trials as well (not selected). Just get the feeling that the press have painted a bit of a target on this vaccine and every story about it tends to be negative. 

Are we testing any of the other ones. I am sure someone at my mum's golf club said that they were going to be in a trial for the Russian vaccine.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I would have been happy with any of them but then again I volunteered for the trials as well (not selected). Just get the feeling that the press have painted a bit of a target on this vaccine and every story about it tends to be negative.

Are we testing any of the other ones. I am sure someone at my mum's golf club said that they were going to be in a trial for the Russian vaccine.
		
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There are other vaccines in clinical trials, including some big companies like Sanofi, Johnson & Johnson etc. Not sure if they are in the UK or not. Haven't heard that Sputnik is landing around here. It is similar to Oxford in that it is an adenovirus with the spike protein gene inside. In fact, they have an interesting twist by using two different adenoviruses for the primary and booster, so that any immune response generated by the first doesn't inhibit the second. It is a very plausible vaccine, but my experience of clinical trials in Russia leads me to apply an abundance of caution. The underlying science is good, though. 

The problem with Oxford is that clinical trials are a bit bumpy, but rarely anything that can't be sorted out. However this sorting is not usuall done in the full glare of global media interest and loads of people pontificating (like me) on social media. If the EMA or MHRA thinks there is no problem, we shouldn't think differently.


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## larmen (Dec 9, 2020)

The people with the adverse reactions to the vaccine,
A) are they still building up resistance to the actual virus?
B) are they in any proper danger?
C) would they likely have reacted to another vaccine? Like a flu jab for example? Or the Oxford vaccine?
just wondering what the implications might be.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2020)

3000 cakes arrived today courtesy of the royal visitors yesterday. Enough for every department (and then some). Simple touch but has been well received. No, I don't think the HRH's and their kids were there with the rolling pin baking away and clearly ordered in but as I say a nice touch seeing as they couldn't visit any wards or areas in person


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2020)

larmen said:



			The people with the adverse reactions to the vaccine,
A) are they still building up resistance to the actual virus?
B) are they in any proper danger?
C) would they likely have reacted to another vaccine? Like a flu jab for example? Or the Oxford vaccine?
just wondering what the implications might be.
		
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The adverse reactions usually don't affect the beneficial response. 6 people died in the Pfizer study, 2 on vaccine and 4 on placebo. Neither of the 2 who died on vaccine were thought to be connected to the vaccine. The SAEs were mostly not related to vaccine, quite a lot happened in the placebo arm too. This is often the case, because SAEs include everything that havens, including people falling over or breaking a leg playing football. There were only 3 SAEs considered related to vaccine; swollen lymph nodes, a heart arrhythmia in someone who had pre-existing heart disease and a shoulder injury, perhaps due to a clumsy injection. 

I have done a few clinical trials. This is very good safety data.


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## larmen (Dec 9, 2020)

Cheers Ethan. In the news they just they just said that both of them have recovered as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2020)

Mrs SILH went into Guildford to do some shopping yesterday.  Came home pretty sad about her trip - about a dozen shops closed on the High Street 'hill' (for those who know the town) and a big Closing Down sign on Debenhams at it's bottom.  And Guildford is a wealthy town in a wealthy area


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2020)

So if you are going to the Canaries, from Saturday when you return you will have to isolate for 2 weeks. Yet London which has figures rising May go into Tier 3  on Wednesday. Am I missing something.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 11, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			So if you are going to the Canaries, from Saturday when you return you will have to isolate for 2 weeks. Yet London which has figures rising May go into Tier 3  on Wednesday. Am I missing something.
		
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Should be in tier 3 already but thats Politics in play....


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Should be in tier 3 already but thats Politics in play....
		
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What, no P word 😁😘


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## PNWokingham (Dec 11, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Should be in tier 3 already but thats Politics in play....
		
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i think they will struggle to push it to t3 economically and, if so, there will be a big row with other t3 areas that are showing lowere infections and on better trends


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## bluewolf (Dec 11, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i think they will struggle to push it to t3 economically and, if so, there will be a big row with other t3 areas that are showing lowere infections and on better trends
		
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I suspect the roll out of mass testing in secondary schools announced yesterday will be used to justify keeping London in tier 2. 
If that is the case then I’d expect serious rebellion from areas that have been in tier 3 for an extended period and have better numbers.


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## road2ruin (Dec 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			If that is the case then I’d expect serious rebellion from areas that have been in tier 3 for an extended period and have better numbers.
		
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I've got friends in Leeds and the surrounding area who are furious that London is being given special protection (or at least that is the way it seems to them) against being put into the higher tier when their own areas have been in tier 3 for a while despite having no particular rises in cases etc. I agree, if London isn't stuck into tier 3 there will be a breakdown in rule following in certain areas.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect the roll out of mass testing in secondary schools announced yesterday will be used to justify keeping London in tier 2.
If that is the case then *I’d expect serious rebellion from areas that have been in tier 3 for an extended period and have better numbers.*

Click to expand...

I'm gathering people now


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## DanFST (Dec 11, 2020)

Absolute madness London not being in T3. 

Rules are being broken there more than anywhere else, People aren't even shy about posting in pubs/bars/restaurants anymore.


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2020)

Doesn't the tier system take into account the amount of hospitals there are in the area?
I believe London has almost 300 hospitals


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Doesn't the tier system take into account the amount of hospitals there are in the area?
I believe London has almost 300 hospitals
		
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Lot of hospitals but also a lot of people. More relevant is the beds per population or acute beds per population. I don't know the numbers but the fact that they have high numbers and are still not tier 3 suggests they are well blessed with both. Lucky them.


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## DanFST (Dec 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Doesn't the tier system take into account the amount of hospitals there are in the area?
I believe London has almost 300 hospitals
		
Click to expand...

Potentially, @Ethan will know for sure. 

However, most of my friends/people my age are still there, and just flatout lying that they live together to be inside. They will be going to their parents for Christmas, January is going to be crazy. 

Just glad golf has been allowed to make it through regardless of tiers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			i think they will struggle to push it to t3 economically and, if so, there will be a big row with other t3 areas that are showing lowere infections and on better trends
		
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Wife was speaking earlier with a Brighton friend who was up in London Wednesday evening meeting up with a friend of hers.  Our Brighton friend said that she was frankly shocked how her friend (in his 50s) plus what appeared to be all age groups out and about socialising were behaving.  With most she saw there appeared little or no concern about adhering to the measures we must adhere to - acting as if all was normal. 

Our Brighton friend has been very strict in her adherence (as she is vulnerable) and dismayed at her friend - never mind everyone else she saw - and is very reticent about going near London until we are through the worst of this.  As a result my wife and her pal have cancelled meeting up this weekend - because of the risk her friend feels she was exposed to and the risk she poses to my wife - and so on.

London - just not good at all.  It's as though they consider themselves immune to picking it up - almost an arrogance that says "I'm not worried about picking it up - if I do it won't harm me - and I'll only pass it on to someone who also is unlikely to develop bad Covid-19 - and they wouldn't dare shut down bars and hospitality in London"


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## DanFST (Dec 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			London - just not good at all.  It's as though they consider themselves immune to picking it up - almost an arrogance that says "I'm not worried about picking it up - if I do it won't harm me - and I'll only pass it on to someone who also is unlikely to develop bad Covid-19 - and they wouldn't dare shut down bars and hospitality in London"
		
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I Seldom agree with you, but that's spot on. Add in the reliance on public transport and it's just a mess!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Doesn't the tier system take into account the amount of hospitals there are in the area?
I believe London has almost 300 hospitals
		
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And unfortunately as that may be the case, when Boris’s 4 day Covid holiday comes into effect, the good people of London village will be spreading there wings around the country where there are not as many hospitals ☹️


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## Ethan (Dec 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Potentially, @Ethan will know for sure.

However, most of my friends/people my age are still there, and just flatout lying that they live together to be inside. They will be going to their parents for Christmas, January is going to be crazy.

Just glad golf has been allowed to make it through regardless of tiers.
		
Click to expand...

The tier system takes local NHS pressures into account. The limiting steps are ICU beds and staffing. The Nightingales are staffed and supplied by other local provision, so staff and equipment is diverted to them if needed, but takes away from other facilities.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 11, 2020)

Genuine question. Why is there the overriding impression from much of the country that its outrageous that London is not already in tier 3? 

Reason for asking is that my area of London still has a lower rate than most of the existing tier 3 areas (or, at least, those I've looked up)..  Ok, the trend is worryingly going in the wrong direction  - and if it continues that way, I  can see why T3 would be beckonning  - but until this past week, it was generally less than 2/3rds of the national average and even now its just on the national average still .  Until this week i thought we were generally doing OK (and what I dont understand is why its now climbing. As far as I can, tell no-one is really doing that much different to the past few months, which were reasonably ok.).


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## Fade and Die (Dec 11, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Potentially, @Ethan will know for sure.

However, most of my friends/people my age are still there, and just flatout lying that they live together to be inside. They will be going to their parents for Christmas, January is going to be crazy.

Just glad golf has been allowed to make it through regardless of tiers.
		
Click to expand...

This article on Sky news shows that London is the only region with hospital admission levels under 25% of the peak.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-will-london-go-into-tier-3-before-christmas-12156235


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Genuine question. Why is there the overriding impression from much of the country that its outrageous that London is not already in tier 3?

Reason for asking is that my area of London still has a lower rate than most of the existing tier 3 areas (or, at least, those I've looked up)..  Ok, the trend is worryingly going in the wrong direction  - and if it continues that way, I  can see why T3 would be beckonning  - but until this past week, it was generally less than 2/3rds of the national average and even now its just on the national average still .  Until this week i thought we were generally doing OK (and what I dont understand is why its now climbing. As far as I can, tell no-one is really doing that much different to the past few months, which were reasonably ok.).
		
Click to expand...

I think the problem is that some parts of a  county are low and some are high so all the county goes into tier 3. Some parts of London are high some are not yet its not in tier 3. So folk are thinking its double standards and the South is favoured.


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Genuine question. Why is there the overriding impression from much of the country that its outrageous that London is not already in tier 3?

Reason for asking is that my area of London still has a lower rate than most of the existing tier 3 areas (or, at least, those I've looked up)..  Ok, the trend is worryingly going in the wrong direction  - and if it continues that way, I  can see why T3 would be beckonning  - but until this past week, it was generally less than 2/3rds of the national average and even now its just on the national average still .  Until this week i thought we were generally doing OK (and what I dont understand is why its now climbing. As far as I can, tell no-one is really doing that much different to the past few months, which were reasonably ok.).
		
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For the avoidance of doubt. I’m not saying that London should be put in tier 3. However, it’s quite clear that tier 2 isn’t working. Numbers are rising. R rate is rising. Tier 2 is supposed to stop the rise.
My argument is that if London is kept in tier 2, then there is no sufficient reason to keep large swathes of the North in tier 3. 👍


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## Tashyboy (Dec 12, 2020)

Watched QT the other night, I don’t know who it was said it,( a woman). But she was  positive on saying the infection rate is slowing down. She was informed that it is still going up. She said ” Yes but it is slowing down whilst going up”. Sweet lord.

That aside Mansfield has the biggest indoor car boot sale tomorrow which the organiser says is “ Covid safe”. Am staying in bed for a month.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Watched QT the other night, I don’t know who it was said it,( a woman). But she was  positive on saying the infection rate is slowing down. She was informed that it is still going up. She said ” Yes but it is slowing down whilst going up”. Sweet lord.

That aside Mansfield has the biggest indoor car boot sale tomorrow which the organiser says is “ Covid safe”. Am staying in bed for a month.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, Einstein was right, eh?


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## Billysboots (Dec 12, 2020)

As a county we’re Tier 3, despite large swathes of the county having infection rates well below the national average, both in general and in the over-60’s. Pressure on the local NHS is not as high as in the spring.

We have a city and two boroughs which have been bucking the trend all year, mainly due to demographics, and their rates are consistently high. But many hoped that parts of the county would be split from the city and moved to Tier 2 next week. Many local MP’s have been very vocal on the subject.

But I hear, through work, that it is almost a racing certainty that the county wide approach will remain. Despite suggestions to the contrary, there is little political appetite to start looking at this borough by borough.

So. Our clubhouse can forget opening before April at the earliest.


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Watched QT the other night, I don’t know who it was said it,( a woman). But she was  positive on saying the infection rate is slowing down. She was informed that it is still going up. She said ” Yes but it is slowing down whilst going up”. Sweet lord.
		
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I didn't see QT, but she was saying that the rate of increase was slowing? That is fair enough comment and signals an important change in the disease compared to the exponential rise if nothing is having an effect.


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## Imurg (Dec 12, 2020)

Has anyone come up with a ballpark time for getting through the vaccine list.?
Is there a time frame?


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## bluewolf (Dec 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Has anyone come up with a ballpark time for getting through the vaccine list.?
Is there a time frame?
		
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I don’t think anyone really can yet as it will all depend on the manufacturing limitations of the companies producing the vaccine.


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I don’t think anyone really can yet as it will all depend on the manufacturing limitations of the companies producing the vaccine.
		
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Yeah, if AZ/Oxford gets an approval soon that will help a lot but the Pfizer supply will run out pretty soon. My missus (NHS) is booked to get it this week.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 13, 2020)

I would like to see the number of people vaccinated each day published alongside the infection and death rates.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I would like to see the number of people vaccinated each day published alongside the infection and death rates.
		
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Would you trust the figures 🤔😉


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 13, 2020)

We are very close to cancelling out current plans to visit relatives at Xmas. Currently waiting to see how things change but there is a good chance we are going to plan B now and hoping we don’t enact plan C.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 13, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Has anyone come up with a ballpark time for getting through the vaccine list.?
Is there a time frame?
		
Click to expand...

Cant remember where I saw it, but did see a suggestion that they'd have vaccinated "Group 1" by the end of the year  and would probably have got through "Group 5" (the 65 and over group) by about the end of March. But depended on the supply of vaccine. I'm in group 7.


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## Ethan (Dec 13, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I would like to see the number of people vaccinated each day published alongside the infection and death rates.
		
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I don't think that sort of data will be available in an accurate and timely manner. it will take a while for vacc numbers to make an impact on cases, though, any short term effects will be due to the social distancing/mask/rule of 6 stuff.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 14, 2020)

London and SE England going into Tier 3 from tomorrow night.


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## Old Skier (Dec 14, 2020)

New variant of Covid popping up in large numbers in the SE


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Deep joy ☹️☹️☹️
		
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Really don't see the big deal at all

Basically all it takes off the cards is going to the cinema .. going to the pub (with your family as it was anyways) mixing In gardens and football fans gone again 

Gyms still open
Haircuts still available
Golf still available
Schools open
Shops still open 

Long as the pubs get their support and employees get support then really day to day it is the same as tier 2


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2020)

Missis T said tonight we’re going for a walk with Layla Tash to see the Xmas lights and to drop a bottle of plonk off for next door neighbour on the next estate. Well bogger me she/ neighbour dropped a card off at 4.30pm so we have had a chin wag. She is a nurse working on a Covid ward. Gotta say it is upsetting listening to her talk. She has lost count how many times she has come home broken hearted seeing the deaths. Knowing you have done all you can. And going back to work 10 hrs later somehow having picked yourself up to go through it all again. 
Then she drops out it is worse now than the first wave, the second wave has shown no signs of slowing, every bed is full and they are talking of a third wave. 
She has had Covid, she says she is ok but her eyes look glazed and Ave seen that look before in people who have had Covid. Me and Missis T were a bit down, that and summat else as well today. But it’s amazing how the innocence of a chirpy 5 yr old can lift your spirits.


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## yandabrown (Dec 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Really don't see the big deal at all

Basically all it takes off the cards is going to the cinema .. going to the pub (with your family as it was anyways) mixing In gardens and football fans gone again

Gyms still open
Haircuts still available
Golf still available
Schools open
Shops still open

Long as the pubs get their support and employees get support then really day to day it is the same as tier 2
		
Click to expand...

So if those parts of the south east that have already been in tier 3 since lockdown still have cases rising, does that mean tier 4 is on the way?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



			How about sitting with your playing partners after golf for a bit of food, drink and socialising? 
And going to the pub to watch footie.
		
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You shouldn't be doing that anyways. As unless you live with your PP you can't mix inside you can only sit down with them if it's your household or support bubble 

And pub to watch football would be same would need to be with household.  Plus are pubs even open? They can't sell booze without a meal in tier 2.


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## DanFST (Dec 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I didn't say inside. We have a balcony/patio with a very well-functioning food and booze "meal deal" service that we can all enjoy in Tier 2 for the post round chit chat, mickey taking. Now we can't do that.

Pubs obviously you can go into in Tier 2 either on your own or with household members and order food and drink whilst watching footie, can't do that anymore either.

So yes, it's a huge difference if those 2 things are your main social life.
		
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You could just watch the football with the household, in your household? Can't socialise inside with anyone else, so no difference. 

You can also bring your own beers and sit outside with 5 others should your club allow it, after golf.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			So if those parts of the south east that have already been in tier 3 since lockdown still have cases rising, does that mean tier 4 is on the way?
		
Click to expand...

No


Traminator said:



			I didn't say inside. We have a balcony/patio with a very well-functioning food and booze "meal deal" service that we can all enjoy in Tier 2 for the post round chit chat, mickey taking. Now we can't do that.

Pubs obviously you can go into in Tier 2 either on your own or with household members and order food and drink whilst watching footie, can't do that anymore either.

So yes, it's a huge difference if those 2 things are your main social life.
		
Click to expand...

The fact that the pre clubhouse round still can take place then it implies a social life of sorts is available

And if your going pub alone or with family that can be done at home 

So minor change


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Massive difference.
I live on my own, so going to a pub watching the footie, even with strangers on other tables, at least there's some noise and atmosphere.
		
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Then you could form a support bubble and go to theirs to watch the football?


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## fundy (Dec 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Then you could form a support bubble and go to theirs to watch the football?
		
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or you could accept the impact on someone who lives alone is far greater than on someone in a family household


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

fundy said:



			or you could accept the impact on someone who lives alone is far greater than on someone in a family household
		
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Merely pointing out solutions to a problem. Could form a bubble with one of his playing partners and then they can meet indoors for some social interaction now that what he is used to Is taken away

It's a year of adapting to situations.


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## DanFST (Dec 14, 2020)

fundy said:



			or you could accept the impact on someone who lives alone is far greater than on someone in a family household
		
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I'm also alone. I and many others did over 2 months without seeing another person.

This isn't ideal, but in the scheme of things isn't a huge issue. Can still get out on the course, slightly different beer session after but still possible.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Really don't see the big deal at all

Basically all it takes off the cards is going to the cinema .. going to the pub (with your family as it was anyways) mixing In gardens and football fans gone again

Gyms still open
Haircuts still available
Golf still available
Schools open
Shops still open

Long as the pubs get their support and employees get support then really day to day it is the same as tier 2
		
Click to expand...

Here speaks someone who has lived in a tier 2 zone for a while. We've been in effective lockdown for quite a few months now. There is a difference. There is no release in tier 3, there definitely is in tier 2.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Here speaks someone who has lived in a tier 2 zone for a while. We've been in effective lockdown for quite a few months now. There is a difference. There is no release in tier 3, there definitely is in tier 2.
		
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Golf isn't a release?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



			No you're not.
I've only been in the area since the beginning of the year, I can't just invite myself round the house of people I've played the odd round of golf with, let alone in the middle of a pandemic.
		
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Shame your not close to Dan, both single households could have formed a bubble and both got a bit of company (not being sarky even if sounds it)

I hope you find some release

Hey least we still have golf.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



			And no you cannot sit outside the clubhouse with your own beer.
Bars, pubs restaurants may offer takeaway only... The key word meaning you take it away, not sit there on site drinking.

Groups of 6 in a support bubble may meet in certain outdoor areas, not on the golf club patio drinking.

View attachment 33957

Click to expand...

Groups of 6 can meet outside in parks etc and doesn't have to be support bubbles 

So your playing partners you can meet in a park for example


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Traminator said:



			And no you cannot sit outside the clubhouse with your own beer.
Bars, pubs restaurants may offer takeaway only... The key word meaning you take it away, not sit there on site drinking.

Groups of 6 in a support bubble may meet in certain outdoor areas, not on the golf club patio drinking.

View attachment 33957

Click to expand...


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## arnieboy (Dec 14, 2020)

Went to a local garden centre today and there were at least three groups of four pensioners sitting together in the coffee shop. Perhaps they all live together......


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2020)

Tier 3 was a huge difference for me. Removed any external social interaction. 6 people meeting in the garden for an hour, a meal in the pub with my wife, all things I really miss. These days it is work and home, nothing else, really hard mentally


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Tier 3 was a huge difference for me. Removed any external social interaction. 6 people meeting in the garden for an hour, a meal in the pub with my wife, all things I really miss. These days it is work and home, nothing else, really hard mentally
		
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Appreciate not the same. However you can meet people for an hour in the local park instead tour garden 

Have a take away delivered instead of the meal out to try and switch off for that night 

Little releases


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## Fade and Die (Dec 14, 2020)

Bah... had to cancel our works breakfast on Thursday. No works do or even a meal with the wives this year but thought the 3 of us could have got in a posh breakfast in London, but no such luck. ☹️


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 14, 2020)

Wait and see where we end up. Sneaking feeling we're heading to tier 3. Not that bothered and have no plans to go out socialising at Christmas and the new year. Finish on Christmas Eve, back first Monday in January and so close the door, spend some time with the wife and chill. Will get some fresh air and golf and thats me. See how the land lies in 2021 and if/when I get my vaccine


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 14, 2020)

Came into work today to full escalation plan in action. Only got 5 Covid (plus a suspected) but the unit is full. Now taken over T&O side rooms and escalated into their firs bay on their main ward. Plans to take it over completely if we get 4 more admissions and can't discharge. This isn't a Covid wave although I fear that apocalypse will come the second or third week of January after the Christmas excesses. Add in the winter pressures with flu etc and I fear 2021 is going to be a tough start


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2020)

Not good! Despite the positivity in some areas!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Golf isn't a release?
		
Click to expand...

Slipped disc at the moment so I'm not playing. It certainly doesn't help. I miss little releases at the weekend,  meeting someone in a house, tea and cake in a cafe after a walk. Yes, there are alternatives but I've doing those for a good while now and the joy has gone.

I'm aware why the area is tier 3, we are sticking to the rules. It's just draining. Tier 2 gives releases, I want to be in it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we should be.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Slipped disc at the moment so I'm not playing. It certainly doesn't help. I miss little releases at the weekend,  meeting someone in a house, tea and cake in a cafe after a walk. Yes, there are alternatives but I've doing those for a good while now and the joy has gone.

I'm aware why the area is tier 3, we are sticking to the rules. It's just draining. Tier 2 gives releases, I want to be in it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we should be.
		
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It certainly is challenging


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

I find this so helpful


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## IanM (Dec 14, 2020)

Tonight's figures for Wales are bad.   Worse growth than England.   Goodness knows how.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2020)

IanM said:



			Tonight's figures for Wales are bad.   Worse growth than England.   Goodness knows how.
		
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Prob because even with restrictions it is an air born virus, its now winter and it was always going to spread


Think it's more surprising that it hasn't spread even worse


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2020)

arnieboy said:



			Went to a local garden centre today and there were at least three groups of four pensioners sitting together in the coffee shop. Perhaps they all live together......
		
Click to expand...

sounds like a car keys in the fruit bowl job to me.😣


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 14, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			sounds like a car keys in the fruit bowl job to me.😣
		
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Teeth in or teeth out


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Teeth in or teeth out
		
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😳 teeth in a fruit bowl, must be a southern thing homer.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2020)

Sweet mother Homer your right.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Prob because even with restrictions it is an air born virus, its now winter and it was always going to spread


Think it's more surprising that it hasn't spread even worse
		
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We keep hearing stories of people not distancing and acting irrisponsibly so I guess some regions are worse than others.  My region is now 46 per 100,000.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 14, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			😳 teeth in a fruit bowl, must be a southern thing homer.
		
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Invalidity Scooter Keys in a fruity bowl  I like the sound of that, where's my Ghia scooter


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## Slab (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 33965

I find this so helpful
		
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Very useful to see this summary

Although I'm completely staggered there is so much freedom of movement/activity & a complete lack of any frequency capping during the pandemic, especially while infection numbers '_seem_' out of control


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

Slab said:



			Very useful to see this summary

Although I'm completely staggered there is so much freedom of movement/activity & a complete lack of any frequency capping during the pandemic, especially while infection numbers '_seem_' out of control
		
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Fully agreed 

When the " extra strong' measures were announced  after lockdown I was very confused 

They are less strict by a mile


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 15, 2020)

Apparently Milton Keynes has a rate of 216 per 100K, yet somehow we escaped tier 3 yesterday. Not been anywhere near the main city centre since before the first lockdown, but if the reports are true, you'd be insane to go in there - the place is apparently rammed with many people failing to do social distancing, refusing to wear masks and ignoring the one way system. I get it's Christmas, and people want to shop but I really don't understand the mentality of people. The sooner we do tier 3 the better, but it's a mad world out there, the shops will stay open and the idiots will still behave like idiots.


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2020)

The North goes into tier 3, people have a moan, shrug their shoulders and get on with it. 
London goes into tier 3, it's the end of the world


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## Tashyboy (Dec 15, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			The North goes into tier 3, people have a moan, shrug their shoulders and get on with it.
London goes into tier 3, it's the end of the world 

Click to expand...

you know when it’s tough up north, you put your “big coat” on.


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Apparently Milton Keynes has a rate of 216 per 100K, yet somehow we escaped tier 3 yesterday. Not been anywhere near the main city centre since before the first lockdown, but if the reports are true, you'd be insane to go in there - the place is apparently rammed with many people failing to do social distancing, refusing to wear masks and ignoring the one way system. I get it's Christmas, and people want to shop but I really don't understand the mentality of people. The sooner we do tier 3 the better, but it's a mad world out there, the shops will stay open and the idiots will still behave like idiots.
		
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Not necessarily escaped Tier 3. The announcement is tomorrow, London was brought forward as the need was more pressing to move it up a tier.


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## Kellfire (Dec 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Not necessarily escaped Tier 3. The announcement is tomorrow, London was brought forward as the need was more pressing to move it up a tier.
		
Click to expand...

Yep Luton and Milton Keynes both expected to be in Tier 3.


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yep Luton and Milton Keynes both expected to be in Tier 3.
		
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Yep, with such a large portion of the country in tier 3 now, unless there are enough areas going the other way to counter that (which I do not think that there is) I can see a press conference at the weekend cancelling or amending the plans for Xmas. I can see it being restricted to 3 days (Xmas eve, Xmas day and Boxing day) or being cancelled all together with people staying in their tiers. Seems to be a ground swell of opinion that the Xmas relaxation should be cancelled now.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			The North goes into tier 3, people have a moan, shrug their shoulders and get on with it.
London goes into tier 3, it's the end of the world 

Click to expand...

That's because if London's economy suffers the whole economy suffers ..

London normally brings in 25% of the whole UK GDP which is taken out and fed to the entire country


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Yep, with such a large portion of the country in tier 3 now, unless there are enough areas going the other way to counter that (which I do not think that there is) I can see a press conference at the weekend cancelling or amending the plans for Xmas. I can see it being restricted to 3 days (Xmas eve, Xmas day and Boxing day) or being cancelled all together with people staying in their tiers. Seems to be a ground swell of opinion that the Xmas relaxation should be cancelled now.
		
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They won't cancel Xmas now, would be a massive vote loser 

They will keep saying only meet if you have to. Just because you can don't mean you should etc so that it's up to the public 

They know people will break it anyways


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's because if London's economy suffers the whole economy suffers ..

London normally brings in 25% of the whole UK GDP which is taken out and fed to the entire country
		
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Crikey,  there must he a hell of a lot of bars and restaurants in London to draw in that type of money 😅


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## fundy (Dec 15, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Yep Luton and Milton Keynes both expected to be in Tier 3.
		
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where do you get that info from?


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## AmandaJR (Dec 15, 2020)

I don't understand why non essential retail isn't closed in Tier 3 and probably Tier 2. I know I know it's the last couple of weeks before Christmas and retailers would flip out BUT it's bound to be a huge source of spread as we all know how manic the town centres get in the lead up to Christmas. With the ability to get everything online I just think it makes sense to close them.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I don't understand why non essential retail isn't closed in Tier 3 and probably Tier 2. I know I know it's the last couple of weeks before Christmas and retailers would flip out BUT it's bound to be a huge source of spread as we all know how manic the town centres get in the lead up to Christmas. With the ability to get everything online I just think it makes sense to close them.
		
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I can't answer that without going into politics


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

]



GB72 said:



			Yep, with such a large portion of the country in tier 3 now, unless there are enough areas going the other way to counter that (which I do not think that there is) I can see a press conference at the weekend cancelling or amending the plans for Xmas. I can see it being restricted to 3 days (Xmas eve, Xmas day and Boxing day) or being cancelled all together with people staying in their tiers. Seems to be a ground swell of opinion that the Xmas relaxation should be cancelled now.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55311717

It's like their predictable


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## Kellfire (Dec 15, 2020)

fundy said:



			where do you get that info from?
		
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Just the vibe coming across on social media.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 15, 2020)

fundy said:



			where do you get that info from?
		
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MK Council have been predicting it for a week or so, especially given the rate rise. We should be in it already, fully expect it tomorrow, the sooner the better.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 15, 2020)

What about this new strain that is being talked about since yesterday.... hope that the vaccine works for this too




			Mr Hancock also revealed on Monday that an initial analysis of a new variant of coronavirus suggested it was "growing faster than the existing variant", which should serve as a "warning to us all" to stay "vigilant".
A further 20,263 cases and a 232 deaths within 28 days of a positive test were recorded in the UK on Monday, according to government figures.
		
Click to expand...


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## AmandaJR (Dec 15, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			What about this new strain that is being talked about since yesterday.... hope that the vaccine works for this too
		
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The scientist on the BBC this morning, who is always brilliant and matter of fact and without agenda (Chris Smith) suggested the new strain has more spikes which get into the cells BUT that the indications are the vaccine will still be effective against it and that it doesn't make infected people any sicker - rather with more spikes it accesses the cells easier.

It's like this virus is a real crafty and nasty blighter trying to defeat us at every turn.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's because if London's economy suffers the whole economy suffers ..

London normally brings in 25% of the whole UK GDP which is taken out and fed to the entire country
		
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Actually it is approximately 20% and as for it then being spread round the country as if it were largesse i suggest you look at the comparative public spending per capita.


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I’m in two minds about Xmas. I think the relaxation of the rules in the current situation is questionable but I’ve seen my mum once this year... 

Click to expand...

Pretty much the same. I know it is a bad idea but my wife has not seen her mum all year and both of us are just desperate to be able to chat with a few different people and have some social interaction. We are more concerned about passing it on rather than catching it but we have both agreed that we would leave it to my in laws to decide if Xmas is to go ahead as they are at a greater risk than my wife and I. They won't cancel as they are selfish like that, want everyone to visit them, always have an excuse not to head up this way (despite the fact that my wife and her brother both live in the east midlands and they have grandkids up here) but will passive aggressively hint that they never get to see anyone and it will certainly not be their fault if one of them picks up covid over xmas.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Actually it is approximately 20% and as for it then being spread round the country as if it were largesse i suggest you look at the comparative public spending per capita.
		
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https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-d...€554b, which,per capita among European cities.

23.6% which is nearer 25 than 20 if we going to split hairs 

If you look at what regions bring in compared to what is spent per head London and south east make enough to cover their expenses


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## Slab (Dec 15, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I don't understand why non essential retail isn't closed in Tier 3 and probably Tier 2. I know I know it's the last couple of weeks before Christmas and retailers would flip out BUT it's bound to be a huge source of spread as we all know how manic the town centres get in the lead up to Christmas. With the ability to get everything online I just think it makes sense to close them.
		
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In one way it kinda doesn't matter what retailers are open, it mostly matters how many people visit a retailer and how many times they visit


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Just the vibe coming across on social media.
		
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What's the vibe for the north east?
I have a feeling we will be stuck in tier 3 despite our case numbers falling rapidly.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Actually it is approximately 20% and as for it then being spread round the country as if it were largesse i suggest you look at the comparative public spending per capita.
		
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Few years old I grant you


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 33971


Few years old I grant you
		
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Highest spend per capita is Northern Ireland followed by Scotland.

But guess where the highest figure is for the rest of the UK, and in some cases by quite a margin, yes it's London!

Education, transport(inc infrastructure) etc.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Highest spend per capita is Northern Ireland followed by Scotland.

But guess where the highest figure is for the rest of the UK, and in some cases by quite a margin, yes it's London!

Education, transport(inc infrastructure) etc.
		
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Yes but if London brings the most money in then it will have the most spent on it no? 

Transport was built by the Victorians and just upgraded 

For example the tube brings enough money in alone to run the buses and fund projects in London

This year even with bail out the tube will bring in enough to run the tube just not the rest it normally funds 

Much like London. London brings in a quarter (almost) of the whole of the UK's GDP. Is it wrong to spend slightly more there? Whilst it still sends billions to other parts of the UK?

Not like London's keeping every penny it.makes


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes but if London brings the most money in then it will have the most spent on it no?

Transport was built by the Victorians and just upgraded

For example the tube brings enough money in alone to run the buses and fund projects in London

This year even with bail out the tube will bring in enough to run the tube just not the rest it normally funds

Much like London. London brings in a quarter (almost) of the whole of the UK's GDP. Is it wrong to spend slightly more there? Whilst it still sends billions to other parts of the UK?

Not like London's keeping every penny it.makes
		
Click to expand...

Obviously it will absorb the most in total but that is no reason why its share should be the greatest  per head of population.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Obviously it will absorb the most in total but that is no reason why its share should be the greatest  per head of population.
		
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It's not really that much more no? And north east getting almost the same


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## backwoodsman (Dec 15, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			The North goes into tier 3, people have a moan, shrug their shoulders and get on with it.
London goes into tier 3, it's the end of the world 

Click to expand...

 I still dont understand this type of perception?  (Ie southerners whinge & northerners don't) 

Most folk that i know down here have long thought we should be in tier three - and are now having a moan, shrugging their shoulders and getting on with it. And thats even though decent chunks of London are still lower than much of the country and certainly way  lower than pretty much the rest of London. But we accept that it's just not possible or practical to divide London into the  constiuent boroughs - ie in the same way that other areas got lumped together because it was not really practical to keep them separate

And yes, it will be tough on the economy - same as it was/is tough on the econony for the rest of the country..

Ps: I may live in London but I ain't from London...


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## DanFST (Dec 15, 2020)

How of London's GDP comes from office work? Or even just The City and Canary Wharf? In CW less than 7% of the workers are there, economically is still functioning normally, people are working from home or left London completely. I've been to the office once since this broke out, 75%-ish of business in CW were shut anyway, there's just no one there.

Londoners are arrogant, Politicians are arrogant. I can see why the North maybe annoyed.


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

I think that the annoyance from my point of view, and I am trying to be practical not political, is that the new move has put parts of Essex and Kent in Tier 3, which is exactly what was not allowed in Lincolnshire. We are told that the tiers had to be on county lines and not on individual authorities but that is exactly the opposite to what has been applied in the South East. Maybe that will change with the announcements tomorrow.


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## bluewolf (Dec 15, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			I still dont understand this type of perception?  (Ie southerners whinge & northerners don't)

Most folk that i know down here have long thought we should be in tier three - and are now having a moan, shrugging their shoulders and getting on with it. And thats even though decent chunks of London are still lower than much of the country and certainly way  lower than pretty much the rest of London. But we accept that it's just not possible or practical to divide London into the  constiuent boroughs - ie in the same way that other areas got lumped together because it was not really practical to keep them separate

And yes, it will be tough on the economy - same as it was/is tough on the econony for the rest of the country..

Ps: I may live in London but I ain't from London...
		
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i think it’s more about the way the National media reacts to it really. It’s not a personal thing. Much like when the weather is bad oop North compared to when it’s bad darn sarf 😉


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

Medical Journals now coming out against the Xmas relaxation. Still not convinced that we will not get a press conference on Sunday night about this.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			What's the vibe for the north east?
I have a feeling we will be stuck in tier 3 despite our case numbers falling rapidly.
		
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I can't see us going to tier 2. South Tyneside are dragging us all down at the moment and stupidly the whole area is lumped together as one ☹. 

Just a few days before the Christmas free for all, I think they will keep the lid on until the last minute.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Medical Journals now coming out against the Xmas relaxation. Still not convinced that we will not get a press conference on Sunday night about this.
		
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They haven't listened to science throughout this pandamic I very much doubt they will now 

If they change now they now a lot of people won't listen anyways 

People like yourself might change their mind as it stands so why the need to make themsleves unpopular?


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I can't see us going to tier 2. South Tyneside are dragging us all down at the moment and stupidly the whole area is lumped together as one ☹.

Just a few days before the Christmas free for all, I think they will keep the lid on until the last minute.
		
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We have the same with Boston and Grimsby. Still, if part of Kent and part of Essex can be put in to Tier 3 that shows a willingness now to consider matters by each local authority rather than on County. 

Still not overly hopeful, actually think that the whole of Kent and Essex should be in Tier 3 rather than relax in other regions.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I can't see us going to tier 2. South Tyneside are dragging us all down at the moment and stupidly the whole area is lumped together as one ☹. 

Just a few days before the Christmas free for all, I think they will keep the lid on until the last minute.
		
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The whole tier system expires on 3rd Feb is it anyways? Doubt much will change until then

Maybe a lockdown Feb 1st


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They haven't listened to science throughout this pandamic I very much doubt they will now

If they change now they now a lot of people won't listen anyways

People like yourself might change their mind as it stands so why the need to make themsleves unpopular?
		
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I guess because there is the potential to be on the end of massive and damaging 'I told you so' come February.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I guess because there is the potential to be on the end of massive and damaging 'I told you so' come February.
		
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They did same with eat out to spread out 

Encouraged the population to help local restaurants etc then blamed the population for going out


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 33972


It's not really that much more no? And north east getting almost the same
		
Click to expand...

Compare London with East Midlands, which is where I live.

A difference of 20%, similarly next door in West Midlands. 

Hardly small differences.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Compare London with East Midlands, which is where I live.

A difference of 20%, similarly next door in West Midlands. 

Hardly small differences.
		
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But then compare with the south east .. which is level with you.. whilst one of the few who brings in enough to cover their expenses. They in turn get less spent on them than areas who bring in minus figures


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			We have the same with Boston and Grimsby. Still, if part of Kent and part of Essex can be put in to Tier 3 that shows a willingness now to consider matters by each local authority rather than on County.

Still not overly hopeful, actually think that the whole of Kent and Essex should be in Tier 3 rather than relax in other regions.
		
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I don't think having tiers from town to town is workable up here, you'll get people jumping on a Metro at South Shields and going to pubs in other towns. Now when you get more rural like Northumberland or Hexham way then it's a bit more doable.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			But then compare with the south east .. which is level with you.. whilst one of the few who brings in enough to cover their expenses. They in turn get less spent on them than areas who bring in minus figures
		
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Which merely proves that  a disproportionate amount per capita is spent in London.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Which merely proves that  a disproportionate amount per capita is spent in London.
		
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Which is why the gov is spending a fortune on HS2 to bridge some of the "north south" divide


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## bluewolf (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Which is why the gov is spending a fortune on HS2 to bridge some of the "north south" divide
		
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Investing in jobs in the North would be a far better way of bridging that gap than by allowing Northerners to get to jobs in the South 20 minutes quicker.... 😉


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Investing in jobs in the North would be a far better way of bridging that gap than by allowing Northerners to get to jobs in the South 20 minutes quicker.... 😉
		
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It's the other way though. It encourages people to build buisness in the north with good connections to London for meetings etc 

Cut travel time meaning meetings can be anywhere 

Even with zoom people seem to want face to face


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Which merely proves that  a disproportionate amount per capita is spent in London.
		
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Transport is always a good one to point out at this stage.

HS2, pah.


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## bluewolf (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's the other way though. It encourages people to build buisness in the north with good connections to London for meetings etc

Cut travel time meaning meetings can be anywhere

Even with zoom people seem to want face to face
		
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I’ll bet you a flat cap, a whippet and a Pie Barm it doesn’t 👍😂


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I’ll bet you a flat cap, a whippet and a Pie Barm it doesn’t 👍😂
		
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By time it's actually finished we will all be dead 🤣


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Transport is always a good one to point out at this stage.

HS2, pah. 
View attachment 33976

Click to expand...

Thing is London's projects are mostly paid for by private investment, not all but in the main..you can't force private investment to invest in other parts the country

Battersea extension funded by private 
Jubilee extension was funded by canary wharf


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Thing is London's projects are mostly paid for by private investment, not all but in the main..you can't force private investment to invest in other parts the country

Battersea extension funded by private
Jubilee extension was funded by canary wharf
		
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If private money was removed do you really think that chart would be much different? Crossrail alone probably deserves it's own section. 

If you keep pumping huge money into projects in the capital then no wonder business, people etc continue to gravitate to there.


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## DanFST (Dec 15, 2020)

The infrastructure is playing catch up. Not sure the investments a pull factor, more reducing push.

I used to travel 2 stops/6 minutes from Bermondsey to the office, I moved next to the office because was so unreliable.


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I don't think having tiers from town to town is workable up here, you'll get people jumping on a Metro at South Shields and going to pubs in other towns. Now when you get more rural like Northumberland or Hexham way then it's a bit more doable.
		
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Agree, that is what we have here, pretty disparate communities with not massive amounts of public transport between them.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If private money was removed do you really think that chart would be much different? Crossrail alone probably deserves it's own section. 

If you keep pumping huge money into projects in the capital then no wonder business, people etc continue to gravitate to there.
		
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Crossfail is just ridiculous.. constant delays 

But will see some real benefits once it


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

Conversations to be had between the devolved nations over Xmas. I can see Wales and Northern Ireland pushing for a change to the plans, maybe even Scotland as well.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

DanFST said:



			The infrastructure is playing catch up. Not sure the investments a pull factor, more reducing push.

I used to travel 2 stops/6 minutes from Bermondsey to the office, I moved next to the office because was so unreliable.
		
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Also years of under investment on the tube is starting to show and needs urgent repair to be fit for standard in some areas .. meaning have to invest


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Crossfail is just ridiculous.. constant delays

But will see some real benefits once it
		
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Who will see benefits? Mmm 😁. 

I don't dispute it will be good for those using it. It's just that others around the country would like their schemes given the green light as well. Who knows,  they may not even spiral out of control if outside the capital 😳


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Who will see benefits? Mmm 😁. 

I don't dispute it will be good for those using it. It's just that others around the country would like their schemes given the green light as well. Who knows,  they may not even spiral out of control if outside the capital 😳
		
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The east and west of country

Other parts do get projects like the stone henge tunnelling etc 

Just if not London people don't focus on it


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## Billysboots (Dec 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I think that the annoyance from my point of view, and I am trying to be practical not political, is that the new move has put parts of Essex and Kent in Tier 3, which is exactly what was not allowed in Lincolnshire. We are told that the tiers had to be on county lines and not on individual authorities but that is exactly the opposite to what has been applied in the South East. Maybe that will change with the announcements tomorrow.
		
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Matt Hancock has pledged (apparently) to consider rural boroughs separately from cities in the same county during this week’s review. I’m in one such area, as is my golf club - Tier 3 despite an infection rate some way below the national average.

I’m approaching this review expecting no reprieve from Tier 3, so any relaxation for us will be a bonus.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They haven't listened to science throughout this pandamic I very much doubt they will now 

If they change now they now a lot of people won't listen anyways 

People like yourself might change their mind as it stands so why the need to make themsleves unpopular?
		
Click to expand...

Frankly, what amazes me is the number of people who will make some sort of socialising, knowing it is dangerous, because the rules allow it.
A lot of people have to take risks because of work, livelihood, care of others etc etc, but I am talking about the sort of interactions that have been mentioned here which are unnecessary  ones.
If it is putting yourselves or others at unnecessary risk, why do it because it's hard. What the hell is harder than being dead!
Why is it impossible to give up this Christmas so that you and yours have future Christmases?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Frankly, what amazes me is the number of people who will make some sort of socialising, knowing it is dangerous, because the rules allow it.
A lot of people have to take risks because of work, livelihood, care of others etc etc, but I am talking about the sort of interactions that have been mentioned here which are necessary ones.
If it is putting yourselves or others at unnecessary risk, why do it because it's hard. What the hell is harder than being dead!
Why is it impossible to give up this Christmas so that you and yours have future Christmases?
		
Click to expand...

I know we will but it is the same groups we see constantly due to support and childcare bubbles so it's the same risk as before


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Frankly, what amazes me is the number of people who will make some sort of socialising, knowing it is dangerous, because the rules allow it.
A lot of people have to take risks because of work, livelihood, care of others etc etc, but I am talking about the sort of interactions that have been mentioned here which are necessary ones.
If it is putting yourselves or others at unnecessary risk, why do it because it's hard. What the hell is harder than being dead!
Why is it impossible to give up this Christmas so that you and yours have future Christmases?
		
Click to expand...

Because some people are so in need of some form of social interaction that it is no Xmas that is important, just the need to spend time in the company of other human beings. I am finding it hard enough with no contact with anyone outside of work and my wife since mid October and so I hate to think how it will have impacted on people who are very much on their own. The ability to chat to people walking by when sat in the garden as was possible in the first lockdown is long gone and I will admit to struggling and so, yes, if permitted I will meet with people at Xmas.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			The east and west of country

Other parts do get projects like the stone henge tunnelling etc

Just if not London people don't focus on it
		
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Surely you mean the  east and west of the greater London area?

Can't see much benefit from CrossRail to the people of Devon or Norfolk.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Surely you mean the  east and west of the greater London area?

Can't see much benefit from CrossRail to the people of Devon or Norfolk.
		
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It's going to go to reading and shenfield (both out of London, however shenfield only just but shenfield has fast train links to Norfolk)

So could get only 2 trains from Norfolk to reading


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## DanFST (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's going to go to reading and shenfield (both out of London, however shenfield only just but shenfield has fast train links to Norfolk)

So could get only 2 trains from Norfolk to reading
		
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Just over 2 hours from Norwich to Heathrow also.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Just over 2 hours from Norwich to Heathrow also.
		
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Don't mention that, doesn't suit the narrative that investment in London only helps London 🙄


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Don't mention that, doesn't suit the narrative that investment in London only helps London 🙄
		
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Do you really believe that there will be  anything like the level of demand from outside London to justify the massive difference in transport infrastructure spend from the taxpayer?

By far its main purpose is to serve commuters in London.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Do you really believe that there will be  anything like the level of demand from outside London to justify the massive difference in transport infrastructure spend from the taxpayer?

By far its main purpose is to serve commuters in London.
		
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So commuters in London.. do they live in London? No they don't

Anyone using mainline services to London don't live in London 

For example today I'll use the example of my shift on

We had me from Havering . Greater London
One from Bedfordshire
One from Peterborough
One from Tonbridge
One from Southampton
One from Huntington
One from Uxbridge 
One from Chelmsford

In many offices you will get people from all over 

So again investment in London benefits many places . They will spend their wages in local shops and services . Spreading the love.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's the other way though. It encourages people to build buisness in the north with good connections to London for meetings etc 

Cut travel time meaning meetings can be anywhere 

Even with zoom people seem to want face to face
		
Click to expand...

Bristol has seen a massive increase in commercial business over the last 50 years due to its good road and rail links and lower overhead costs compared to London.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So commuters in London.. do they live in London? No they don't

Anyone using mainline services to London don't live in London

For example today I'll use the example of my shift on

We had me from Havering . Greater London
One from Bedfordshire
One from Peterborough
One from Tonbridge
One from Southampton
One from Huntington
One from Uxbridge
One from Chelmsford

In many offices you will get people from all over

So again investment in London benefits many places . They will spend their wages in local shops and services . Spreading the love.
		
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The majority of London commuter live within the M25 although I appreciate that there are plenty of longer distance travellers, even did it myself for a while. 

All of which illustrates just what a London centric economy we have to the detriment of other parts of the country.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			The majority of London commuter live within the M25 although I appreciate that there are plenty of longer distance travellers, even did it myself for a while. 

All of which illustrates just what a London centric economy we have to the detriment of other parts of the country.
		
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That is untrue otherwise we wouldn't need commuter services on national rail as everyone would just use the tube

Commuter services from Southend, Norwich, Colchester, Kent , Southampton, reading, Oxford, Cambridge , Bedford all packed coming into London at peak times normally.

A lot of people who live in greater London work locally to them not in the city


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## DanFST (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			The majority of London commuter live within the M25 although I appreciate that there are plenty of longer distance travellers, even did it myself for a while.

All of which illustrates just what a London centric economy we have to the detriment of other parts of the country.
		
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When my mum was Ill I came back almost everyday to Ipswich for about 3 months. A season ticket costs £7,000. I never once got a seat unless I took a 10pm or later train (they operate every 12 minutes or so, and are Intercity Trains) 

Unless you are on 60k+ or young, London is a pretty bad place to live.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That is untrue otherwise we wouldn't need commuter services on national rail as everyone would just use the tube

Commuter services from Southend, Norwich, Colchester, Kent , Southampton, reading, Oxford, Cambridge , Bedford all packed coming into London at peak times normally.

A lot of people who live in greater London work locally to them not in the city
		
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According to the ONS and,  I believe, TfL it is true. 

Of course there are plenty of people travelling from further afield but the average commute distance shows that the majority are from within the M25.


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## Reemul (Dec 15, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Because some people are so in need of some form of social interaction that it is no Xmas that is important, just the need to spend time in the company of other human beings. I am finding it hard enough with no contact with anyone outside of work and my wife since mid October and so I hate to think how it will have impacted on people who are very much on their own. The ability to chat to people walking by when sat in the garden as was possible in the first lockdown is long gone and I will admit to struggling and so, yes, if permitted I will meet with people at Xmas.
		
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I think he is not aiming his point at those that do not get much contact but those that have families and meet up with those outside of work as permitted.

My wife has 4 brothers and sister so 5 of them in total, there are 12 grankids in amongst that. Normally we would be all over each other over the Xmas period, we all live local to each other, half at one house half at the other including their parents.

This year we are all having our own Xmas dinner at home and we will meet up in individual family groups to visit the parents in the Garden, Gazebo and Summer House ready if it chucks it down with Patio Heaters. We are being extra careful even though the rules say we can meet up, for all of us there is no burning need so we won't but if anyone was alone then they would be with one of us. Bu there will still be a massive amount of families like ours that will and are meeting up because they want to regardless of the risk and that is the point i think Swinglowandslow  doesn't understand and I am with him in that.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			According to the ONS and,  I believe, TfL it is true. 

Of course there are plenty of people travelling from further afield but the average commute distance shows that the majority are from within the M25.
		
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What they counts is users who arrive in London the travel

Ie our Bedford lot train to zone 1 .. tube to work

Many get off Waterloo etc


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## IainP (Dec 15, 2020)

Could we take the travel/infrastructure talk to a non coronavirus thread?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 15, 2020)

Had the local news on before, ITV Tyne Tees, and the headline piece was the start of GP Vaccinations in Sunderland, lovely bit of TV, all positive for the local area.

The reporter is then interviewing the GP, whose surgery is being used, and discussing the response etc, he tells her those being vaccinated today will return in 3 weeks for the second dose, all good so far!

The reporter then asks, “Why do they need a 2nd dose?” What the actual F..... what a ridiculous and stupid question! I couldn’t believe it, the poor GP looks at her and says, “Because that’s how the Vaccine is administered”


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Had the local news on before, ITV Tyne Tees, and the headline piece was the start of GP Vaccinations in Sunderland, lovely bit of TV, all positive for the local area.

The reporter is then interviewing the GP, whose surgery is being used, and discussing the response etc, he tells her those being vaccinated today will return in 3 weeks for the second dose, all good so far!

The reporter then asks, “Why do they need a 2nd dose?” What the actual F..... what a ridiculous and stupid question! I couldn’t believe it, the poor GP looks at her and says, “Because that’s how the Vaccine is administered”
		
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My grand parents go for their first dose Friday 

Certainly smiled when I heard


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2020)

Escalation in full swing now. Clinical governance postponed which is a very rare occurrence but every available member of staff booked in for shifts where possible. This is getting towards where we were in May although the majority is non-covid. Feels like its going to be a tough Christmas


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2020)

If they're non Covid what are they Homer?


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## Ethan (Dec 15, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			If they're non Covid what are they Homer?
		
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Normal winter demand, probably, which puts pressure on the NHS every year. Throw in rising Covid cases on top and it could get very ugly. January could be catastrophic.


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## IainP (Dec 16, 2020)

I was hoping that general mask wearing, distancing, cleanliness might have led to a reduction in 'normal' bugs being passed around- probably too early to tell.

Looking like several European countries are tightening things
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55324422


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## AliMc (Dec 16, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You should live in Scotland Amanda.

Scots Government issues £500 one off payment to NHS staff.
30 minutes later it's a massive  'what about meeeeeeee.'
'I'm part time and I won't be getting £500.'
'I'm a bin man and I'm getting sod all'.
'Doctors don't need an extra £500 they are well paid etc etc etc.'
		
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My wife works as a Pharmacist in the local county hospital, she has already said that she will donate her £500 (less Tax, NI) to the care home that my mother passed away in earlier this year.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 16, 2020)

We had a confirmed case at work 

A few have had to isolate in cons

More measures brought in to try and mitigate any further risk 

Brings it home

But it's good in a way because people get complacent. not wishing covid on anyone but it helps get people back on their toes


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## SaintHacker (Dec 16, 2020)

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-one-cough-and-were-all-gone-but-its-worth-the-risk-12163694

I've run out of words...


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## Billysboots (Dec 16, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-one-cough-and-were-all-gone-but-its-worth-the-risk-12163694

I've run out of words...
		
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I’ve not. But none of them can be printed here.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2020)

Thing is, I see all these stories about young people going out for a last drink before Tier 3 and I am not sure I could say that I would have been any different at that age. I am not defending the actions at all but what I am saying is that I was not exactly what I would call a responsible adult in in my twenties and I would be hard pushed to put my hand up and say that I would have behaved any differently to what young people are doing now. Again, let me emphasise that I am not supporting going out and crowding the streets when more stringent measures where announced, rather that I am willing to put my hand up and say that I was just as stupid and insensitive at that age and can honestly say that 20 year old me, if I was living in London, would have probably been an idiot too.


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## Billysboots (Dec 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Thing is, I see all these stories about young people going out for a last drink before Tier 3 and I am not sure I could say that I would have been any different at that age. I am not defending the actions at all but what I am saying is that I was not exactly what I would call a responsible adult in in my twenties and I would be hard pushed to put my hand up and say that I would have behaved any differently to what young people are doing now. Again, let me emphasise that I am not supporting going out and crowding the streets when more stringent measures where announced, rather that I am willing to put my hand up and say that I was just as stupid and insensitive at that age and can honestly say that 20 year old me, if I was living in London, would have probably been an idiot too.
		
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Whilst I was probably the same, I would like to think that, nearly a year into a global pandemic which is showing no signs of slowing, even my irresponsible 20-something year old self would have started to grasp the fact that my behaviour perhaps needed to change.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I was probably the same, I would like to think that, nearly a year into a global pandemic which is showing no signs of slowing, even my irresponsible 20-something year old self would have started to grasp the fact that my behaviour perhaps needed to change.
		
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I would love to think otherwise as well but I also know that a call from a few mates, lets go for a drink, last chance for a while etc, I am ashamed to admit that in my twenties I probably would have gone out. I guess what I was trying to get across is that I am trying not to be judgemental in a number of situations simply because, if I were in the person in question's shoes, would I have acted any differently. It is very easy to criticise the younger generation when looking at it through the eyes of a 40 something as I am now but if you look at things in depth and answer honestly, I suspect that more than a few would be hard pressed to 100% guarantee that they would have acted any differently.


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## bluewolf (Dec 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I would love to think otherwise as well but I also know that a call from a few mates, lets go for a drink, last chance for a while etc, I am ashamed to admit that in my twenties I probably would have gone out. I guess what I was trying to get across is that I am trying not to be judgemental in a number of situations simply because, if I were in the person in question's shoes, would I have acted any differently. It is very easy to criticise the younger generation when looking at it through the eyes of a 40 something as I am now but if you look at things in depth and answer honestly, I suspect that more than a few would be hard pressed to 100% guarantee that they would have acted any differently.
		
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I’d have gone out. Undoubtedly. It’s why I’m refusing to be judgemental about them now.

 I’d like to think I’d have shown the due care and attention that was being called for right up to the point of entering Tier 3. But I’d happily be sat there, with a meal and a few drinks.


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## DanFST (Dec 16, 2020)

Never thought i'd agree with a Scientologist!


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## Beezerk (Dec 16, 2020)

DanFST said:








Never thought i'd agree with a Scientologist!
		
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He has a point but he's still a complete dosser with how he goes off.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 16, 2020)

Great to see the announcement of 137,000 vaccinations already done.  This will really ramp up early in the New Year with all the extra centres for them to be done.  Keep publishing those scores and give up all good news.

One of our seniors dropped out of the team Texas Scramble today because he was called for his injection.   Definitely the best excuse ever for missing such an event.  But we're still going to fine him a pound anyway!


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## Mudball (Dec 16, 2020)

The virus has indeed brought the country to its knees...  It has amplified the gap between the haves and have-nots.  
In case you missed this story >> COVID-19: For the first time in its history UNICEF will help feed children in the UK >>> https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515


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## bluewolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			The virus has indeed brought the country to its knees...  It has amplified the gap between the haves and have-nots. 
In case you missed this story >> COVID-19: For the first time in its history UNICEF will help feed children in the UK >>> https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...unicef-will-help-feed-kids-in-the-uk-12163515

Click to expand...

Interesting story in The Independent today regarding MacKenzie Scott giving away $4Billion over the last 4 months. 
No disrespect to her as it’s an amazing gesture, but it does call into question the ethics and morals of society that people can accumulate this type of wealth whilst people need food banks and children are starving in the richest nation on earth.


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## Slab (Dec 16, 2020)

First time in a few weeks my wife and I had a chat about uk’s covid situation last night (we try not to bring it up too much as it’s just a depressing topic but 500 daily deaths is hard to ignore)
We both agreed that the UK wouldn’t or couldn’t do a proper lockdown to start with but cant understand why there’s so much dam freedom of movement right now while its running rampant 

It must be waring real thin after so many months of being not restricted much (if at all) but not really free either. I do feel for those that have been doing a proper 'self-lockdown' for such a long time

Its a real worry that xmas is going to cost people way more this year than any other year because these 9 months of half measures must be more painful to live through than the 2½ months of harsh measures we had, I can only imagine the need for a ‘release’ or temporary escape that must be running high after so long

But now that vaccines are being made there’s zero chance of the appropriate lockdown steps being taken in the UK to keep folks safe locally or nationally, so more than ever it’s going to be up to everyone to protect themselves until they get the jag next year. If its permitted its your call what you’ll do but it might be best to postpone a xmas get-together for a few months… just this once


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## Mudball (Dec 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Interesting story in The Independent today regarding MacKenzie Scott giving away $4Billion over the last 4 months.
No disrespect to her as it’s an amazing gesture, but it does call into question the ethics and morals of society that people can accumulate this type of wealth whilst people need food banks and children are starving in the richest nation on earth.
		
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Agree... but equally (globally) we are not a communist system... so capitalism will throw such disparities.  As you say, fair game from her, that she is giving it away.  Unfortunately, we do live in a society that a few will fight to keep the food away from the kids.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Agree... but equally (globally) we are not a communist system... so capitalism will throw such disparities.  As you say, fair game from her, that she is giving it away.  Unfortunately, we do live in a society that a few will fight to keep the food away from the kids.
		
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I'm split on this. It is obviously very good to give away so much. At the same time, if Amazon were not so aggressive in avoiding tax around the world then govts would have more money to deal with some of these problems themselves and she would not need to give so much away. She gets to play the good person somewhat unfairly.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			I would love to think otherwise as well but I also know that a call from a few mates, lets go for a drink, last chance for a while etc, I am ashamed to admit that in my twenties I probably would have gone out. I guess what I was trying to get across is that I am trying not to be judgemental in a number of situations simply because, if I were in the person in question's shoes, would I have acted any differently. It is very easy to criticise the younger generation when looking at it through the eyes of a 40 something as I am now but if you look at things in depth and answer honestly, I suspect that more than a few would be hard pressed to 100% guarantee that they would have acted any differently.
		
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Don't agree. As has been said, there comes a point when the situation is clearly one where anyone of an adult age is capable of thinking somewhat further than . " I want to ......" 
we all, even looking that far back, can remember doing foolish things when young, but there is a line , you know.  Covid draws it quite clearly. Not so sure that you see it.


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## IanM (Dec 16, 2020)

Anyone going n TV and saying "I expect the public to be sensible" is onto a loser immediately! 

Looks like golf is closed in Wales after Christmas, but everything Mr Dippford approves of will carry on as usual!  (apologies for minor political inference!)


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't agree. As has been said, there comes a point when the situation is clearly one where anyone of an adult age is capable of thinking somewhat further than . " I want to ......"
we all, even looking that far back, can remember doing foolish things when young, but there is a line , you know.  Covid draws it quite clearly. Not so sure that you see it.
		
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Pretty sure I know exactly where the line is and abide by it. I also can look at matters form a different point of view and know that the younger me was far less responsible and would look a the situation totally differently than I look at it now.


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## bobmac (Dec 16, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Pretty sure I know exactly where the line is and abide by it. I also can look at matters form a different point of view and know that the younger me was far less responsible and would look a the situation totally differently than I look at it now.
		
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You have the advantage over most of us as we can't remember that far back


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2020)

bobmac said:



			You have the advantage over most of us as we can't remember that far back
		
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Its going back a while for me as well now. Nearly 50 now.


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## bluewolf (Dec 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Agree... but equally (globally) we are not a communist system... so capitalism will throw such disparities.  As you say, fair game from her, that she is giving it away.  Unfortunately, we do live in a society that a few will fight to keep the food away from the kids.
		
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Agreed, and I’m in no way suggesting that we should immediately install a Communist system, but there has to be a way of ensuring that local tax systems are not manipulated by global businesses. 
This is especially important now when you consider the wealth shift that is currently happening from smaller local businesses to much larger online delivery based businesses. I know who I’d be targeting to pay for the additional spending incurred during Covid.


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## Billysboots (Dec 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't agree. As has been said, there comes a point when the situation is clearly one where anyone of an adult age is capable of thinking somewhat further than . " I want to ......"
we all, even looking that far back, can remember doing foolish things when young, but there is a line , you know.  Covid draws it quite clearly. Not so sure that you see it.
		
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And that really is my point as well. I can certainly forgive the exuberance of youth, we’ve all been there, after all. But there has to come a point when even the most naive and blinkered 23 year old must start to think, hang on, there’s a really nasty situation here and my behaviour isn’t helping.

I could excuse some of the behaviour we were seeing months ago from those aged in the 20’s and 30’s who continued to hit the bars and party in the streets. But even they must be able to see now that carrying on as though everything in the garden is rosy really is no longer acceptable.


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## road2ruin (Dec 16, 2020)

IainP said:



			I was hoping that general mask wearing, distancing, cleanliness might have led to a reduction in 'normal' bugs being passed around- probably too early to tell.
		
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I can only speak on a local level or at least that of being a father of a 6 year old and I think it has definitely lead to a reduction of the normal stuff. Usually at this point in the year we are on a continuous cycle of snot and used tissues all over the house however, as things stand, she hasn't brought home a single sniffle. Also, a couple of months back a child had a case of Norovirus in the class, usually this would have run rampant in the class however because of the increased hand washing and the fact that that they are not sharing stuff it was only the one child that caught it. 

Obviously this is a pretty small sample however it is accurate!


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## SteveJay (Dec 16, 2020)

Unfortunately there appears to be a growing groundswell amongst people of all ages, that Covid is not as serious as conveyed by politicians and the media (both of whom they have little faith and trust in). 

I have had exchanges on social media with individuals, one of whom was married to someone in the medical profession, who state those dying have almost exclusively got underlying health conditions. This stance is not helped by those who have contracted Covid and have very mild, or no symptoms and, of course, the ridiculous statistic methodology which includes deaths for any cause where the deceased tested positive within 28 days.

I think many , not just the young, are now thinking this is not as serious hence their disregard for the restrictions.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 16, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Unfortunately there appears to be a growing groundswell amongst people of all ages, that Covid is not as serious as conveyed by politicians and the media (both of whom they have little faith and trust in).

I have had exchanges on social media with individuals, one of whom was married to someone in the medical profession, who state those dying have almost exclusively got underlying health conditions. This stance is not helped by those who have contracted Covid and have very mild, or no symptoms and, of course, the ridiculous statistic methodology which includes deaths for any cause where the deceased tested positive within 28 days.

I think many , not just the young, are now thinking this is not as serious hence their disregard for the restrictions.
		
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I think there needs to be more attention paid and publicity about younger people who are seriously ill or die without underlying conditions. Make it a reality that it is a lottery sometimes as to who succumbs and who doesn't. That relies on the media though and doesn't suit their agenda. These stories will be even more important post vaccine roll-out completion so those who refused the vaccination start to see real life stories of those who chose that path and paid the heaviest price.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 16, 2020)

I also think there's an attitude among many that they are so fed up of havig their lives turned upside down by it, with no real end in sight yet, that they are willing to just take their chances with it so they can get on with their lives


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## road2ruin (Dec 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I think there needs to be more attention paid and publicity about younger people who are seriously ill or die without underlying conditions. Make it a reality that it is a lottery sometimes as to who succumbs and who doesn't. That relies on the media though and doesn't suit their agenda. These stories will be even more important post vaccine roll-out completion so those who refused the vaccination start to see real life stories of those who chose that path and paid the heaviest price.
		
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Indeed however the reality is that fit and healthy people die of flu as well yet those stories aren't plastered all over the newspapers. The fact is that for the majority of those in the younger ages the changes of death are absolutely minute and there is more chance of being run over by a bus. The understanding (of all those who aren't fussed) is that it is not their own health that is trying to be protected, it is that of those who do have a lesser chance of fighting it off.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I also think there's an attitude among many that they are so fed up of havig their lives turned upside down by it, with no real end in sight yet, that they are willing to just take their chances with it so they can get on with their lives
		
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I have to agree with this. I think that you are always going to get a degree of lockdown fatigue as every light at the end of the tunnel has been a false hope. People in Tier 3 are, to all intents and purposes, in a lockdown and some places have been in that position for many months now


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## pauljames87 (Dec 16, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Unfortunately there appears to be a growing groundswell amongst people of all ages, that Covid is not as serious as conveyed by politicians and the media (both of whom they have little faith and trust in). 

I have had exchanges on social media with individuals, one of whom was married to someone in the medical profession, who state those dying have almost exclusively got underlying health conditions. This stance is not helped by those who have contracted Covid and have very mild, or no symptoms and, of course, the ridiculous statistic methodology which includes deaths for any cause where the deceased tested positive within 28 days.

I think many , not just the young, are now thinking this is not as serious hence their disregard for the restrictions.
		
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Guy at work (27 ex service fittest of everyone) got covid at the start. He still suffers now 

Another guy at work didn't overly believe why he still feeling it now thought he milking it

He got covid this weekend. He now understands he said


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## DRW (Dec 16, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I think there needs to be more attention paid and publicity about younger people who are seriously ill or die without underlying conditions. Make it a reality that it is a lottery sometimes as to who succumbs and who doesn't. That relies on the media though and doesn't suit their agenda. These stories will be even more important post vaccine roll-out completion so those who refused the vaccination start to see real life stories of those who chose that path and paid the heaviest price.
		
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Deaths are not going to massively help, the numbers are fairly small really(in total 319 if you are go upto the age of 39, including conditions or not ) :-





The post viral problems are probably more important and several studies are out there now, that shows how many it affects. Do have the links saved but not on this computer.


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## DRW (Dec 16, 2020)

Wales closing golf courses after Christmas. 

Will have to try to meet up at RSD with one of the other members I know and play it over Christmas. Normally play there quite a bit during winter months, not this year so far or probably for the rest of winter


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2020)

I may well have taken a less responsible view on Covid when I was a teenager but I was married with children in my twenties and somehow I don't think I would have taken a laissez-faire view of this pandemic.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 16, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I can only speak on a local level or at least that of being a father of a 6 year old and I think it has definitely lead to a reduction of the normal stuff. Usually at this point in the year we are on a continuous cycle of snot and used tissues all over the house however, as things stand, she hasn't brought home a single sniffle. Also, a couple of months back a child had a case of Norovirus in the class, usually this would have run rampant in the class however because of the increased hand washing and the fact that that they are not sharing stuff it was only the one child that caught it.

Obviously this is a pretty small sample however it is accurate! 

Click to expand...

Funnily enough my wife was talking about this today. One of her running friends is a 1st school teacher, infant to everyone else, and she was commenting yesterday how few cases of colds and sniffles she has seen this year. She herself normally spends this term with a cold, bad chest etc but she has been completely clear. Ths constant hand washing, sneeze into your arm etc has definitely had an impact.


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## SteveJay (Dec 16, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			........there is more chance of being run over by a bus..
		
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But remember if that person has tested positive for Covid, say, 3 weeks before, then self isolated and got run over when they ventured out again, it is still deemed a covid death for the stats............ridiculous in my view!!


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## IainP (Dec 16, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Unfortunately there appears to be a growing groundswell amongst people of all ages, that Covid is not as serious as conveyed by politicians and the media (both of whom they have little faith and trust in).

I have had exchanges on social media with individuals, one of whom was married to someone in the medical profession, who state those dying have almost exclusively got underlying health conditions. This stance is not helped by those who have contracted Covid and have very mild, or no symptoms and, of course, *the ridiculous statistic methodology which includes deaths for any cause where the deceased tested positive within 28 days.*

I think many , not just the young, are now thinking this is not as serious hence their disregard for the restrictions.
		
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I found this graph interesting...


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## Ethan (Dec 16, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			But remember if that person has tested positive for Covid, say, 3 weeks before, then self isolated and got run over when they ventured out again, it is still deemed a covid death for the stats............ridiculous in my view!!
		
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Seemingly so, but not really a practical problem. It allows a consistent definition to be applied and this data comparable across time. The trend is more important than the absolute number. 

The chance of death in the next 28 days is very small, even for elderly people. An actuary appeared on More or Less on Radio 4 and said that the risk of death for an 80 year old in the next year was 10%, so only about 1% per month. I am sure there are more deaths of people due to Covid after 28 days, say after being on a ventilator for 6 weeks, or not tested at all, than there are incidental deaths on Covid positives with the 28 days. 

In terms os issues to worry about in Covid, this is around number 93.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 16, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I also think there's an attitude among many that they are so fed up of havig their lives turned upside down by it, with no real end in sight yet, that they are willing to just take their chances with it so they can get on with their lives
		
Click to expand...

But there is an end in sight. The  vaccine

And they are not "just taking 'their' chances, are they?

What is needed is some self discipline. An inconvenient truth.
There is enough risk being taken by those in our community who have to take those risks, in order to work and earn livelihoods , or look after others etc.
It's not unreasonable for the others to give up risky wants until this virus is clobbered. The vaccine is not too far away, after all.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			But there is an end in sight. The  vaccine

And they are not "just taking 'their' chances, are they?

What is needed is some self discipline. An inconvenient truth.
There is enough risk being taken by those in our community who have to take those risks, in order to work and earn livelihoods , or look after others etc.
It's not unreasonable for the others to give up risky wants until this virus is clobbered. The vaccine is not too far away, after all.
		
Click to expand...

You know that, i know that. I'm just describing what i think is going through some peoples minds


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Funnily enough my wife was talking about this today. One of her running friends is a 1st school teacher, infant to everyone else, and she was commenting yesterday how few cases of colds and sniffles she has seen this year. She herself normally spends this term with a cold, bad chest etc but she has been completely clear. Ths constant hand washing, sneeze into your arm etc has definitely had an impact.
		
Click to expand...

We are running in escalation mode and we've five confirmed Covid. That said the rest are usual ICU fare (heart attack, overdose, theatre cases requiring further monitorng etc) but we've seen very few pneumonia cases which we'd expect to start seeing. Nor have we had cases was a result of influenza and there seems to be a reduction across the trust. Maybe that is the hand cleaning etc but are the masks making a big difference too?


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## Backache (Dec 16, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			But remember if that person has tested positive for Covid, say, 3 weeks before, then self isolated and got run over when they ventured out again, it is still deemed a covid death for the stats............ridiculous in my view!!
		
Click to expand...

It is a quick way of counting deaths from Covid to see how the numbers are changing on a day to day basis. There will actually be more deaths missed this way because quite a number of hospital deaths are more than 28 days after the first test. 
However if you are run over by a bus 27 days after your test and you got better your death will be recorded in the 28 days but not on the death certificate which will say something like trauma.
SO you won't be there in the final count.


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## chrisd (Dec 16, 2020)

[QUOTE="road2ruin, post: 2277597, member:  The fact is that for the majority of those in the younger ages the changes of death are absolutely minute and there is more chance of being run over by a bus. .[/QUOTE]

How ironic it would be to be run over by the bus taking people to the hospital 😖😖


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## bluewolf (Dec 16, 2020)

chrisd said:



			How ironic it would be to be run over by the bus taking people to the hospital 😖😖
		
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Must be rough in Kent. We still have ambulances up North. 😉


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## chrisd (Dec 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Must be rough in Kent. We still have ambulances up North. 😉
		
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The numbers in north Kent, Thanet etc you'd need a fleet if buses


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Must be rough in Kent. We still have ambulances up North. 😉
		
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Probably better to be knocked down by an Ambulance 😉


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## pauljames87 (Dec 18, 2020)

Rumours of tier 4 and then lockdown being thrown about. So my prediction for England is tier 4 after Christmas. then the tier system has to end by law beginning of February so suddenly we will go into lockdown end of January.


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2020)

With Wales and N Ireland locking down after Xmas it seems inevitable that England will follow at some point unless infections come right down over the Xmas peri........oh, wait a minute....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2020)

Covid-19 vaccinations in the local area being cancelled and no replacement date given!

Now rumours starting to emerge that vaccinations are being rerouted south.

Really hope the rumours are incorrect and we get the real reason from the Government asap.


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## Kellfire (Dec 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Covid-19 vaccinations in the local area being cancelled and no replacement date given!

Now rumours starting to emerge that vaccinations are being rerouted south.

Really hope the rumours are incorrect and we get the real reason from the Government asap.
		
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Apparently there was issues with some batches of the vaccine in the UK which have had to be withdrawn. Maybe that’s it.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 18, 2020)

Germany seems have been hit hard by the second wave. Over 800 daily deaths. I wonder if it's because they did so well during the first wave that they still have a lot of vulnerable people alive who are now succumbing. Or whether it's an attitude thing with people thinking that it wasn't too bad during the first wave and they've become too relaxed about the rules. Or something else entirely.


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## anotherdouble (Dec 18, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Rumours of tier 4 and then lockdown being thrown about. So my prediction for England is tier 4 after Christmas. then the tier system has to end by law beginning of February so suddenly we will go into lockdown end of January.
		
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They didn’t work the 1st time around so why should they work now. i totally agree with your predictions


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2020)

I've just watched the BBC national/regional news from 6-7pm waiting for something on the vaccine rollout.
Nothing, not even a mention.
I know these days that good news isn't news but surely an update on a worldwide pandemic cure could have got a mention.
Or did I miss something?


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I've just watched the national/regional news from 6-7pm waiting for something on the vaccine rollout.
Nothing, not even a mention.
I know these days that good news isn't news but surely an update on a worldwide pandemic cure could have got a mention.
Or did I miss something?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, but it doesn't stir the mire, does it?
Journalism has really endeared itself to me this year....not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I've just watched the BBC national/regional news from 6-7pm waiting for something on the vaccine rollout.
Nothing, not even a mention.
I know these days that good news isn't news but surely an update on a worldwide pandemic cure could have got a mention.
Or did I miss something?
		
Click to expand...

I don’t know what news you were expecting to see ? They are currently administering the vaccines to the high risk group - do they need to say that everyday ?


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t know what news you were expecting to see ? They are currently administering the vaccines to the high risk group - do they need to say that everyday ?
		
Click to expand...

As I said an update.
Maybe news on these rumours


pauldj42 said:



			Covid-19 vaccinations in the local area being cancelled and no replacement date given!

Now rumours starting to emerge that vaccinations are being rerouted south.

Really hope the rumours are incorrect and we get the real reason from the Government asap.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe an update on  numbers being vaccinated 
Maybe news on an increase on vaccination centres being set up.
Maybe news on celebrities/film stars etc getting vaccinated live on tv to increase confdence in the vaccine
Maybe news on the new vaccines that are in final testing
Maybe news on the rollout delays
etc
etc


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			As I said an update.
Maybe news on these rumours


Maybe an update on  numbers being vaccinated
Maybe news on an increase on vaccination centres being set up.
Maybe news on celebrities/film stars etc getting vaccinated live on tv to increase confdence in the vaccine
Maybe news on the new vaccines that are in final testing
Maybe news on the rollout delays
etc
etc
		
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Should live in the NE Bob, our headline was an update. No mention why some vaccinations cancelled, just a report the local MP has written to the Health Secretary asking for answers.


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## Beezerk (Dec 18, 2020)

Anyone else tried the covid vaccine prediction website?
I'll be getting mine some time in June by the looks of it


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2020)

bobmac said:



			As I said an update.
Maybe news on these rumours


Maybe an update on  numbers being vaccinated
Maybe news on an increase on vaccination centres being set up.
Maybe news on celebrities/film stars etc getting vaccinated live on tv to increase confdence in the vaccine
Maybe news on the new vaccines that are in final testing
Maybe news on the rollout delays
etc
etc
		
Click to expand...

As it’s a local issue for that area then it will be broadcast in that area 

Any other info then just look at websites 

Once the vaccine was in circulation and starting to be administered it’s not going to in the national news everyday unless something dramatic happens


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Anyone else tried the covid vaccine prediction website?
I'll be getting mine some time in June by the looks of it 

Click to expand...

Not much better here although I might just get it in May


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## IainP (Dec 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Germany seems have been hit hard by the second wave. Over 800 daily deaths. I wonder if it's because they did so well during the first wave that they still have a lot of vulnerable people alive who are now succumbing. Or whether it's an attitude thing with people thinking that it wasn't too bad during the first wave and they've become too relaxed about the rules. Or something else entirely.
		
Click to expand...

I'd guess in part the first point.
I think Poland may be similar, perhaps Ukraine to some degree also.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Anyone else tried the covid vaccine prediction website?
I'll be getting mine some time in June by the looks of it 

Click to expand...

Between July and September for me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 18, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			You might be right re sending them down south, we got this letter today encouraging us to get a test even without symptoms. 
	View attachment 34035

Click to expand...

It’s vaccinations not tests that were cancelled.


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## upsidedown (Dec 18, 2020)

Mid may


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Anyone else tried the covid vaccine prediction website?
I'll be getting mine some time in June by the looks of it 

Click to expand...

I was about to type a comment about the penalty of being younger when I decided to go on that site myself. I'm in category 9 and I'm still showing as June 😲.

They need to speed up their jabbing, I was banking on end of March.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s vaccinations not tests that were cancelled.

Click to expand...

Sorry mis-read your post.👍


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s vaccinations not tests that were cancelled.

Click to expand...

Cancelled a few in S Devon (we don’t care because since the NHS Trust in Exter took over N Devon gets nothing), but sorted re jabbing pretty quick.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was about to type a comment about the penalty of being younger when I decided to go on that site myself. I'm in category 9 and I'm still showing as June 😲.

They need to speed up their jabbing, I was banking on end of March.
		
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I assume that when/if the Oxford vaccine gets approved those waiting times will be cut pretty dramatically.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was about to type a comment about the penalty of being younger when I decided to go on that site myself. I'm in category 9 and I'm still showing as June 😲.

They need to speed up their jabbing, I was banking on end of March.
		
Click to expand...

The Oxford one seems to be taking a bit of time to get approval.

We have got a web site set up for volunteers for different rolls if we ever see it. I appear to have been put in the  _*Obersturmbannführer *_for traffic and patient marshalling.


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## Billysboots (Dec 18, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			The Oxford one seems to be taking a bit of time to get approval.
		
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Did I read/hear that they are waiting on the results of the US trial before approval?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 18, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I assume that when/if the Oxford vaccine gets approved those waiting times will be cut pretty dramatically.
		
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That makes sense. Phew


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## bobmac (Dec 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As it’s a local issue for that area then it will be broadcast in that area

Any other info then just look at websites

Once the vaccine was in circulation and starting to be administered it’s not going to in the national news everyday unless something dramatic happens
		
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Might as well just cancel the news then and we can all get our information off the internet because as we all know, everything on the internet is true and fact checked.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)

Had to take a vehicle to Tilbury Docks yesterday, on the train to my next job I was sitting in a fairly empty carriage in a 4 bay.
Bloke comes and sits directly opposite me, no mask, wearing an exempt badge. Literally 4 feet away

I said to him, I can see you’re exempt from wearing a mask, and that’s fine, but shouldn’t you be keeping further away from other people? 

He looked blankly and shrugged his shoulders, so I moved 20 feet up the carriage to an empty 4 bay.

Eeejit


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## Billysboots (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Had to take a vehicle to Tilbury Docks yesterday, on the train to my next job I was sitting in a fairly empty carriage in a 4 bay.
Bloke comes and sits directly opposite me, no mask, wearing an exempt badge. Literally 4 feet away

I said to him, I can see you’re exempt from wearing a mask, and that’s fine, but shouldn’t you be keeping further away from other people?

He looked blankly and shrugged his shoulders, so I moved 20 feet up the carriage to an empty 4 bay.

Eeejit
		
Click to expand...

I can accept exemptions in a limited number of cases, but this sort of behaviour infuriates me because a mask isn’t worn for his safety, it’s worn for yours.

I’d have been absolutely incandescent.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I can accept exemptions in a limited number of cases, but this sort of behaviour infuriates me because a mask isn’t worn for his safety, it’s worn for yours.

I’d have been absolutely incandescent.
		
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Well he was about 20 years younger, 6 inches taller 3 stone heavier and didn’t have a neck, no point arguing with a Neanderthal.  I just removed myself from the area with as little fuss as possible


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well he was about 20 years younger, 6 inches taller 3 stone heavier and didn’t have a neck, no point arguing with a Neanderthal.  I just removed myself from the area with as little fuss as possible
		
Click to expand...

I’ve yet to find an actual reason for people to be exempt, and you don’t even need a doctor to confirm it. You can just print your own exempt badges. There’s even templates to download from the governments website.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 19, 2020)

Some good news. Our regional paper published lists of the areas with the highest and lowest figures. They split my town, a decent sized market town, into 2. My section, the north of the town, has between 0-4 cases right now. That's pretty close to extinguished. 

If others could catch up ..................😁. Good to see numbers down at that level though.


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## NearHull (Dec 19, 2020)

Just tried the Onmi vaccination prediction website.  It defaults to 1,000,000 vaccinations per week.  It predicted a 3 week window for me from late February.  I upped the rate by half a million to see the sensitivity of the model, moved forward to early Feb.


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Had to take a vehicle to Tilbury Docks yesterday, on the train to my next job I was sitting in a fairly empty carriage in a 4 bay.
Bloke comes and sits directly opposite me, no mask, wearing an exempt badge. Literally 4 feet away

I said to him, I can see you’re exempt from wearing a mask, and that’s fine, but shouldn’t you be keeping further away from other people?

He looked blankly and shrugged his shoulders, so I moved 20 feet up the carriage to an empty 4 bay.

Eeejit
		
Click to expand...

It is widely abused. There is a list of condition on gov.uk for which you _may_ be exempt. It seems that many have interpreted that as you _are_ exempt. 

In my opinion, asthma/COPD should not be exemptions, as masks do not interfere with oxygenation and these conditions affect expiration anyway. In fact, such people should be more enthusiastic to wear a mask than others, as they are at increased risk of complications if they get it. Some facial conditions such as trigeminal neuralgia are legit, some autistic teenagers and other people with specific conditions which makes them likely to reach badly to a mask, proper panic disorders or fear of suffocating, but not the average neurotic in the street. It is ridiculous that people can self-exempt themselves. It would be fine if the risk only applied to them, but expecting others to accept risk by indulging their dislike of masks disguised as a dodgy medical condition is unacceptable.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Had to take a vehicle to Tilbury Docks yesterday, on the train to my next job I was sitting in a fairly empty carriage in a 4 bay.
Bloke comes and sits directly opposite me, no mask, wearing an exempt badge. Literally 4 feet away

I said to him, I can see you’re exempt from wearing a mask, and that’s fine, but shouldn’t you be keeping further away from other people?

He looked blankly and shrugged his shoulders, so I moved 20 feet up the carriage to an empty 4 bay.

Eeejit
		
Click to expand...

You should of asked him if he played golf and gave him an infraction. 👍


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well he was about 20 years younger, 6 inches taller 3 stone heavier and didn’t have a neck, *no point arguing with a Neanderthal*.  I just removed myself from the area with as little fuss as possible
		
Click to expand...

you do it every day on here 😂


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

Missis T said many months ago wait til the Covid morphs into a new strain. It was around the time she said wait til it gets into care homes. Anyway with that in mind it seems one or two scientific specialists are more than a little worried re this new strain of virus. So much so it appears the government “ experts” have already had a natter about it over mince pies and mulled wine.
Suffice to say it’s all systems go for family get togethers over Xmas whilst the new Covid plays a game of eeny Meeney miney Mo which one of your parents is gonna go.
Wonder just how bad this new strain actually is🤔


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## Backache (Dec 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is widely abused. There is a list of condition on gov.uk for which you _may_ be exempt. It seems that many have interpreted that as you _are_ exempt.

In my opinion, asthma/COPD should not be exemptions, as masks do not interfere with oxygenation and these conditions affect expiration anyway. In fact, such people should be more enthusiastic to wear a mask than others, as they are at increased risk of complications if they get it. Some facial conditions such as trigeminal neuralgia are legit, some autistic teenagers and other people with specific conditions which makes them likely to reach badly to a mask, proper panic disorders or fear of suffocating, but not the average neurotic in the street. It is ridiculous that people can self-exempt themselves. It would be fine if the risk only applied to them, but expecting others to accept risk by indulging their dislike of masks disguised as a dodgy medical condition is unacceptable.
		
Click to expand...

All probably true, the other side though is the practicality of accurately exempting people other than through self exemption. With medical serivces under huge strain expecting GP's or whoever to add to their workload by assessing people for mask exemption isn't realistic.


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## Billysboots (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well he was about 20 years younger, 6 inches taller 3 stone heavier and didn’t have a neck, no point arguing with a Neanderthal.  I just removed myself from the area with as little fuss as possible
		
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The mere fact he had no neck was reason enough not to argue - smart move!


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## Fade and Die (Dec 19, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			The mere fact he had no neck was reason enough not to argue - smart move!
		
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Also the word “Tilbury”


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## road2ruin (Dec 19, 2020)

Rumours circulating that London/SE could be put into Tier 4 due to this apparent mutated virus. Could be before Christmas which would effectively cancel it. Personally can’t see it happening, the compliance would be low. 

What I can see if that this is preparing us for a full on lockdown in January which will probably take us into the spring. If so there won’t be much of the economy left in the summer. Really feel for anyone in hospitality etc.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

Backache said:



			All probably true, the other side though is the practicality of accurately exempting people other than through self exemption. With medical serivces under huge strain expecting GP's or whoever to add to their workload by assessing people for mask exemption isn't realistic.
		
Click to expand...

Daughters pal, I see her at school when dropping off the sproggs. She never had a mask on and I mentioned it to her. She said “ I am exempt”. I mentioned someone will pull her up coz she is not wearing a lanyard to say she is exempt. She said “ well they will get a round of ( insert own four letter word) for not minding her own business. 😳

Edit to say, headmaster had her in the office the other day coz her 8 yr old son said “ ( insert your own four letter word) you” on a teams video call the other day.


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## GB72 (Dec 19, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Rumours circulating that London/SE could be put into Tier 4 due to this apparent mutated virus. Could be before Christmas which would effectively cancel it. Personally can’t see it happening, the compliance would be low.

What I can see if that this is preparing us for a full on lockdown in January which will probably take us into the spring. If so there won’t be much of the economy left in the summer. Really feel for anyone in hospitality etc.
		
Click to expand...

East of England on the possible list as well. To have the conference today suggests to me something happening immediately. Cannot see them cancelling Xmas for part of the country only. Can see a van if travelling between tiers for Xmas and smaller bubbles followed by a lockdown as soon as it ends on 27th


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

road2ruin said:



*Rumours circulating that London/SE could be put into Tier 4 due to this apparent mutated virus.* Could be before Christmas which would effectively cancel it. Personally can’t see it happening, the compliance would be low.

What I can see if that this is preparing us for a full on lockdown in January which will probably take us into the spring. If so there won’t be much of the economy left in the summer. Really feel for anyone in hospitality etc.
		
Click to expand...

just had a news update from BBC saying that could be the case.


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## anotherdouble (Dec 19, 2020)

press conference at 4pm


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

GB72 said:



			East of England on the possible list as well. To have the conference today suggests to me something happening immediately. Cannot see them cancelling Xmas for part of the country only. Can see a van if travelling between tiers for Xmas and smaller bubbles followed by a lockdown as soon as it ends on 27th
		
Click to expand...

What does me is that the powers that be knew the rates were rising in the south east and London when the country was in Lockdown. Yet when lockdown finished, London went into tier two. 😳 Now it’s going to tier 4 in the space of a week 🤔


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## Backache (Dec 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Daughters pal, I see her at school when dropping off the sproggs. She never had a mask on and I mentioned it to her. She said “ I am exempt”. I mentioned someone will pull her up coz she is not wearing a lanyard to say she is exempt. She said “ well they will get a round of ( insert own four letter word) for not minding her own business. 😳

Edit to say, headmaster had her in the office the other day coz her 8 yr old son said “ ( insert your own four letter word) you” on a teams video call the other day.
		
Click to expand...

Some people really are both selfish and stupid.


----------



## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			What does me is that the powers that be knew the rates were rising in the south east and London when the country was in Lockdown. Yet when lockdown finished, London went into tier two. 😳 Now it’s going to tier 4 in the space of a week 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Do you realise rates aren't the only measure they use for tiers right?


----------



## SaintHacker (Dec 19, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I’ve yet to find an actual reason for people to be exempt, and you don’t even need a doctor to confirm it. You can just print your own exempt badges. There’s even templates to download from the governments website. 

Click to expand...

Its an absolute joke on the buses. They were handing out exemption cards to anyone who asked for one as doctors weren't doing them. I would estimate 95% of the 'exempt' group are teenage girls/young women. The usual excuse is 'anxiety'. Sorry but if you're too anxious to wear a bit of cloth over your face for a few minutes you're too anxious to be out during a pandemic.  The rest are facebook Karen and her mates whose reason for being exempt is she can't fit her Lambert and Butlers in her mouth while she's weraing one, and lastly the younger lads who usually wear one when they get on, but like to show their mates how hard they are by taking it off as soon as they sit down.
I've yet to have an elderly/vulnerable person not wear one.


----------



## Ethan (Dec 19, 2020)

Backache said:



			All probably true, the other side though is the practicality of accurately exempting people other than through self exemption. With medical serivces under huge strain expecting GP's or whoever to add to their workload by assessing people for mask exemption isn't realistic.
		
Click to expand...

True, and I know for a fact that GPs don't want to be doing the exemption notes because quite a few have said so on doctors' social media. But we are allowing people to deduced to pose a public health hazard to others without much checking, which seems odd.


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## Bazzatron (Dec 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Daughters pal, I see her at school when dropping off the sproggs. She never had a mask on and I mentioned it to her. She said “ I am exempt”. I mentioned someone will pull her up coz she is not wearing a lanyard to say she is exempt. She said “ well they will get a round of ( insert own four letter word) for not minding her own business. 😳

Edit to say, headmaster had her in the office the other day coz her 8 yr old son said “ ( insert your own four letter word) you” on a teams video call the other day.
		
Click to expand...

Loads don't bother when I drop my boy at nursery, I'm usually in the minority. Probably why the ward in which I live has the highest rates for the Midlands. 

Don't expect them to manage masks to be fair, half of them can't get out their pyjamas.


----------



## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

Bazzatron said:



			Loads don't bother when I drop my boy at nursery, I'm usually in the minority. Probably why the ward in which I live has the highest rates for the Midlands.

Don't expect them to manage masks to be fair, half of them can't get out their pyjamas.
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2020)

So from Tier 2 to Tier 4 in a matter of 3 days , maybe it’s just me but I have zero confidence in the people in charge and their ability to tackle this.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So from Tier 2 to Tier 4 in a matter of 3 days , maybe it’s just me but I have zero confidence in the people in charge and their ability to tackle this.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, it's you. What would you do then, having seen the graphs. ?


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## SteveW86 (Dec 19, 2020)

They can only act on the info they have. For me they should have kept the national lockdown until Christmas.


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## bluewolf (Dec 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, it's you. What would you do then, having seen the graphs. ?
		
Click to expand...

Put London into tier 3 when the National lockdown ended....


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)

Let’s not get political guys

I just want to know if the courses can remain open


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## Billysboots (Dec 19, 2020)

I’m going to try to avoid politics as best I can, but I’m absolutely delighted that Boris has had the courage to react to the rapidly developing science and do what had to be done.

I’m so much more comfortable now I haven’t got to tell the lovely wife that I’m not spending Boxing Day with her sister’s family and her parents, the latter already spending Christmas Day with another two families in a blatant breach of guidance. There’s now no argument because we all know exactly where we are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, it's you. What would you do then, having seen the graphs. ?
		
Click to expand...

Well put London into Tier 3 when we came out of the last lockdown

Dont even suggest any Xmas relaxing of the rules

Not allowing any sort of social mixing indoors including cinemas , theatres etc , don’t allow any pubs or restaurants to open up

Feel gutted for people’s emotions which will be going up and down at the moment


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## harpo_72 (Dec 19, 2020)

I think Boris has done the right thing. There is a definitive set of rules - makes it less of an emotional issue.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 19, 2020)

The virus is rapidly changing and decisions have to be made based upon those changes. The new strain is relatively new and the impact of it also, therefore, relatively new.

So...things change...


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 19, 2020)

Our Club are thinking of opening the bar/ catering next month.

We are in Tier 2.

Thought we had to have a substantial meal Torah even a drink.

will somebody please clarify as this is what is required in a pub or am I mistaken?


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## Dando (Dec 19, 2020)

“Keep it small, keep it short” mrs d knows all about that 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well put London into Tier 3 when we came out of the last lockdown

Dont even suggest any Xmas relaxing of the rules 

Not allowing any sort of social mixing indoors including cinemas , theatres etc , don’t allow any pubs or restaurants to open up
		
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You were throwing a criticism out about the  measures subject of this broadcast, otherwise you would have been advocating those measures above a lot earlier 😀
As it happens, I agree with those you list above, I have done from weeks back, because it's clear to me that this is spreading from prolonged indoor contact-people breathing the same air-.
My wife and I are not seeing anyone over Xmas. It's cancelled this year.
But I have the luxury of being able to do that.
The government have other considerations and advice, no doubt being that if they didn't allow some leeway, then many would flout the rule and such anarchist behaviour might become too widespread.
Damned if you do, damned......etc.
Let's all pull together, eh😀


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2020)

I haven’t really taken much notice in the news in regards the numbers and gatherings etc but have just seen pictures from the likes of Oxford Circus and the crowds etc in London’s shopping areas and it’s no surprise that this has happened. I’m feeling pretty deflated right now but I’m glad I have a wife and a daughter to spend Xmas with - I’m now worried and thinking of all those who live on their own and were planning to spend Xmas with their parents and now will be on their own - heartbreaking


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Our Club are thinking of opening the bar/ catering next month.

We are in Tier 2.

Thought we had to have a substantial meal Torah even a drink.

will somebody please clarify as this is what is required in a pub or am I mistaken?
		
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To have an alcoholic drink, you are correct. I believe you can have a hot drink, soft drink without eating.

That is how I read the rules.

Have you been out and about locally? Your golf club is no different to a pub, cafe etc in terms of the rules.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			This is about the personalities, not their politics, and I'm no fan of either, but, having watched both the English and Scottish briefings, Nicola Sturgeon is so much better at this than Boris Johnson.
		
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I did find it amusing that hour after Boris announces stronger restrictions and the cancellation of Xmas mixing for many Scotland then announced that their restrictions will be relaxed for Xmas Day - just a coincidence or very well planned 🤔


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## fundy (Dec 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I did find it amusing that hour after Boris announces stronger restrictions and the cancellation of Xmas mixing for many Scotland then announced that their restrictions will be relaxed for Xmas Day - just a coincidence or very well planned 🤔
		
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Announce before Boris when your news is bad, announce after Boris when your news is good, been playing the same game from the start


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			This is about the personalities, not their politics, and I'm no fan of either, but, having watched both the English and Scottish briefings, Nicola Sturgeon is so much better at this than Boris Johnson.
		
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 I find sturgeon respectable


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So from Tier 2 to Tier 4 in a matter of 3 days , maybe it’s just me but I have zero confidence in the people in charge and their ability to tackle this.
		
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If they had listened to the science from day one and been strict a lot of this would be avoided 

It wouldn't be gone but we wouldn't be where we are . 

Finally listening to science but the horse has bolted


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## Slime (Dec 19, 2020)

I'm in the county of Surrey but am fortunate to be staying in Tier 2.
My sisters live just down the road, also in Surrey, but have gone into Tier 4.
I'm awaiting the phone calls right now!


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)

Guys second warning, please keep politics off the menu


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys second warning, please keep politics off the menu
		
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Considering what's just happened and how people are finding it so hard to digest and deal with could we raise with Mike to get this lifted?


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## Ser Shankalot (Dec 19, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Let’s not get political guys

I just want to know if the courses can remain open
		
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According to gov.uk website, under Tier 4 golf courses and outdoor sports remaining open.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home


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## USER1999 (Dec 19, 2020)

Ser Shankalot said:



			According to gov.uk website, under Tier 4 golf courses and outdoor sports remaining open.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home

Click to expand...

But I guess it will be back to 2 balls.


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## Imurg (Dec 19, 2020)

Going to be fun sorting out tomorrow's tee times.....


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## Smiffy (Dec 19, 2020)

Furloughed yet again. Third time this year...😖😖😖
Into tier 4 and that's Christmas well and truly goosed.
No kids this year for the first time ever.


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## FELL75 (Dec 19, 2020)

Slime said:



			I'm in the county of Surrey but am fortunate to be staying in Tier 2.
My sisters live just down the road, also in Surrey, but have gone into Tier 4.
I'm awaiting the phone calls right now!
		
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I'm in Surrey and in tier 4. Thought it was the whole country, bar Waverly? Have I answered my own question?!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 19, 2020)

Club has pulled all tee bookings off the website tomorrow and had an email saying they are waiting to review the impact on golf. I assume that means EGU direction. Can't see it being organised before the morning


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)

,

You know what they say, blink and you will miss it – well that was Tier 3 gone!! As from midnight tonight, Buckinghamshire moves straight into the new tougher Tier 4 Restrictions but at the time I am writing this, on Saturday evening, we have no clear indication or guidance from England Golf or the Government Working Group on Golf Courses.

It is clear that we are asked to “Stay at Home” but we seem to be able to exercise with one other person from outside our Household. We have therefore had to react fast and without any official guidance for tomorrow and Monday until we know a little more detail.

We have therefore made the decision not to cancel any bookings of 3 or 4 Balls for Sunday (20th December) and Monday (21st December) as that would be very disruptive at such short notice. However, you can only exercise with one other person outside your household as mentioned. The outcome is that we move to Nine Holes only with a Two Tee Start which will allow everyone who has booked (and we are pretty full!!) on Sunday & Monday to get Nine Holes of play.

We therefore ask that the Fourballs divide into two Two’s and play Nine Holes only off either Tee at their original Booking Time. If you are a Three Ball please contact the Members behind or in front of your Booking and make up into Two’s. We know this is a disruption and a nuisance but at least gives you a chance to play golf. 

This change applies to Sunday & Monday ONLY at the moment until we get official advice from England Golf & the Government liaison on whether we can proceed with Two Balls or have to close the Course again. Watch this space for any further news.

Thanks for all of your support and help as we try to get through this latest obstacle. Stay well and safe.

from our club a few minutes ago


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## williamalex1 (Dec 19, 2020)

Not to me, I'm  older and only 5'9 . Ooops in reply to Tash's post


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## Beezerk (Dec 19, 2020)

Is anyone up on the current guidelines?
Got a call from my daughter earlier, she's in her Uni digs and was planning on going home to her mother tomorrow.
My daughter had Covid back in October, her mother (my ex missus) is a teacher and has a colleague who tested positive last weekend. My ex tested negative on Monday but has since become ill but not with official Covid symptoms, she's still awaiting the results of another test she had on Friday morning.
If my ex missus tests positive will my daughter have to isolate for 10/14 days if she goes back home, even though she's already had the virus?
I hope that makes a bit of sense.
My gut feeling is she can still contract and pass on the virus despite her already having it but she just doesn't get ill from it.
I've told her to phone the Covid helpline to see what they say and come over to my house tomorrow until her mother finds out her results.


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## fundy (Dec 19, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Is anyone up on the current guidelines?
Got a call from my daughter earlier, she's in her Uni digs and was planning on going home to her mother tomorrow.
My daughter had Covid back in October, her mother (my ex missus) is a teacher and has a colleague who tested positive last weekend. My ex tested negative on Monday but has since become ill but not with official Covid symptoms, she's still awaiting the results of another test she had on Friday morning.
If my ex missus tests positive will my daughter have to isolate for 10/14 days if she goes back home, even though she's already had the virus?
I hope that makes a bit of sense.
My gut feeling is she can still contract and pass on the virus despite her already having it but she just doesn't get ill from it.
I've told her to phone the Covid helpline to see what they say and come over to my house tomorrow until her mother finds out her results.
		
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having had the virus doesnt alter the need to self isolate so yes she would


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## Beezerk (Dec 19, 2020)

fundy said:



			having had the virus doesnt alter the need to self isolate so yes she would
		
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Thanks mate, thought so.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Club has pulled all tee bookings off the website tomorrow and had an email saying they are waiting to review the impact on golf. I assume that means EGU direction. Can't see it being organised before the morning
		
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Ours closed 

However I emailed the GM the gov website and he gonna send out an update soon he said


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 19, 2020)

Just driving into Liverpool 6pm to drop my daughter off.
Was pulled by the police and asked “where I was going and why?”
Had to prove where I lived.
So they are checking already that nobody is coming in from higher tiers.
Albert Dock was full of Mancs last week when they turned the lights on., that full we just went home again .
How are they going to police the whole country?
Can see a total Lockdown Boxing Day onward.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just driving into Liverpool 6pm to drop my daughter off.
Was pulled by the police and asked “where I was going and why?”
Had to prove where I lived.
So they are checking already that nobody is coming in from higher tiers.
Albert Dock was full of Mancs last week when they turned the lights on., that full we just went home again .
How are they going to police the whole country?
Can see a total Lockdown Boxing Day onward.
		
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Thanks for this I best carry my key worker letter tomorrow


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 19, 2020)

Just had email from our club. Golf continues in 2 balls only for 9 holes, regardless of bubbles or households. 

Tomorrow's tee times are split, 2 players front, 2 players back


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 19, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Just had email from our club. Golf continues in 2 balls only for 9 holes, regardless of bubbles or households.

Tomorrow's tee times are split, 2 players front, 2 players back
		
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Nothing from our club so I assume they will do nothing for tomorrow and then get it organised for Monday when some of us are back in work. Deep joy


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nothing from our club so I assume they will do nothing for tomorrow and then get it organised for Monday when some of us are back in work. Deep joy
		
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Ours emailed out saying comp tomorrow cancelled .. all bookings show up and split into two groups one off back one off front .. 9 holes only for everyone 

Seems fair just to get some golf


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

2 balls at our place. They've asked people with multiple rounds up to Xmas to reduce it to one. If enough don't comply by tomorrow evening they will do so. And enforce 9 holes of needed. 

Having 27 I'm hoping that isn't needed.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			2 balls at our place. They've asked people with multiple rounds up to Xmas to reduce it to one. If enough don't comply by tomorrow evening they will do so. And enforce 9 holes of needed.

Having 27 I'm hoping that isn't needed.
		
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Before they announced anything I contacted our 4 ball n said for the 9 hole comp split into 2 bookings incase

Then if 4 just can go back


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

Mansfield went from tier 2 to tier 3 and a national lockdown in the space of a week.  No one said owt apart from the locals. London has more or less done the same and it’s a story. One thing this Covid has taught me. Expect the unexpected.
Thats aside I hope we don’t get to the end of 2021 saying 2020 was not that bad after all. ☹️


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## larmen (Dec 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Thats aside I hope we don’t get to the end of 2021 saying 2020 was not that bad after all. ☹️
		
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One vaccine in use, others fairly close. It has to be better!


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Before they announced anything I contacted our 4 ball n said for the 9 hole comp split into 2 bookings incase

Then if 4 just can go back
		
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I made the mistake of booking a golf break for the 29/30th. £100 down the drain atm as they've told my mate that they're in tier 1. So able to offer golf.....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2020)

From England Golf:
In Tier 4 areas, golf courses can remain open for individuals playing with members of their own household or support bubble, or with one person from another household.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I made the mistake of booking a golf break for the 29/30th. £100 down the drain atm as they've told my mate that they're in tier 1. So able to offer golf.....
		
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Ouch! Yeah we are £140 down ATM on this Santa thing we were going to Tuesday. It's at some farm thing where u go Santa's work shop etc. Didn't tell the kids but was looking forward .. no refunds but book for next year I think (if they are in business)

I guess the club is open so it's available u can't go .. rubbish eh

My boss had same with first lock down had some big holiday with his wife booked for anniversary.. 10k on hotels and flights and Jamaica said we are open so no refund ... But by then everything was closing 

Luckily it closed just before he would have left so saved his cash


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Ouch! Yeah we are £140 down ATM on this Santa thing we were going to Tuesday. It's at some farm thing where u go Santa's work shop etc. Didn't tell the kids but was looking forward .. no refunds but book for next year I think (if they are in business)

I guess the club is open so it's available u can't go .. rubbish eh

My boss had same with first lock down had some big holiday with his wife booked for anniversary.. 10k on hotels and flights and Jamaica said we are open so no refund ... But by then everything was closing

Luckily it closed just before he would have left so saved his cash
		
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The worst thing is my sister works for MOD and when I mentioned I was booking a golf trip she strongly advised me not to.... 

So planning has obviously been in place for a while 🤬


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The worst thing is my sister works for MOD and when I mentioned I was booking a golf trip she strongly advised me not to....

So planning has obviously been in place for a while 🤬
		
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That's bad form as sir Kier said


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## Slime (Dec 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			That's bad form as sir Kier said
		
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It's easy for him to say when he doesn't have the decisions to make.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)




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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Slime said:



			It's easy for him to say when he doesn't have the decisions to make.
		
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The 3 other leaders / rest of Europe been pulling it back for Xmas .. not us we world beating 

So please don't claim we couldn't have avoided this


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## chellie (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The worst thing is my sister works for MOD and when I mentioned I was booking a golf trip she strongly advised me not to....

So planning has obviously been in place for a while 🤬
		
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Well, I don't work for the MOD but wouldn't have been booking a trip either.


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## KenL (Dec 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			This is about the personalities, not their politics, and I'm no fan of either, but, having watched both the English and Scottish briefings, Nicola Sturgeon is so much better at this than Boris Johnson.
		
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What, did Boris not say he felt like crying? 🙄😂


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## 2blue (Dec 19, 2020)

Slime said:



			It's easy for him to say when he doesn't have the decisions to make.
		
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Get on!!!  ........   yer just Wing-it don't yer??


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 19, 2020)

Gents, we be getting a tad political again. 
Now please refrain or the wrath of Fragger will descend like a red mist ...........


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2020)




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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			The worst thing is my sister works for MOD and when I mentioned I was booking a golf trip she strongly advised me not to....

So planning has obviously been in place for a while 🤬
		
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Of course to has. This new strain has been discussed on doctors.net for at least 6 weeks, more transmissible and probably no more pathogenic was the word at the start of November. This was inevitable and has only been made worse by over promising and then having to row back. Underpromising and over achieving is always a better strategy.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

chellie said:



			Well, I don't work for the MOD but wouldn't have been booking a trip either.
		
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We play every year. It's a group tradition. UK breaks in tier 1 are currently allowed. And the club had confirmed the would accept us. 

It's only since tier 4 that they have said you can't leave your tier as opposed to advising not too....


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Of course to has. This new strain has been discussed on doctors.net for at least 6 weeks, more transmissible and probably no more pathogenic was the word at the start of November. This was inevitable and has only been made worse by over promising and then having to row back. Underpromising and over achieving is always a better strategy.
		
Click to expand...

 Been as I've never heard of, let alone looked on that forum I shant comment on how obvious it was. 

That ebong said. The course we had booked can still hold breaks. So they're still OK.... 

When we went into a national lockdown last time, Kent wasn't a risk and yet got treated like the areas that were. This time Kent and London etc has stricter rules yet others don't. I. Can't see the logic  tbh.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Of course to has. This new strain has been discussed on doctors.net for at least 6 weeks, more transmissible and probably no more pathogenic was the word at the start of November. This was inevitable and has only been made worse by over promising and then having to row back. Underpromising and over achieving is always a better strategy.
		
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Expect the worst then you will never be disappointed! It's how I play golf


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Been as I've never heard of, let alone looked on that forum I shant comment on how obvious it was.

That ebong said. The course we had booked can still hold breaks. So they're still OK....

When we went into a national lockdown last time, Kent wasn't a risk and yet got treated like the areas that were. This time Kent and London etc has stricter rules yet others don't. I. Can't see the logic  tbh.
		
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People will still break because I still think these are guidelines not law unlike Wales who made it law


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Been as I've never heard of, let alone looked on that forum I shant comment on how obvious it was.

That ebong said. The course we had booked can still hold breaks. So they're still OK....

When we went into a national lockdown last time, Kent wasn't a risk and yet got treated like the areas that were. This time Kent and London etc has stricter rules yet others don't. I. Can't see the logic  tbh.
		
Click to expand...

That forum is only for GMC registered doctors. There is a lot of discussion and updates from doctors involved in treating Covid, and with expertise in virology, immunology and infectious diseases. 

This new strain will be all over the country soon. Those laughing at London and the SE now may soon not be laughing.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This new strain will be all over the country soon. Those laughing at London and the SE now may soon not be laughing.
		
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I tend to agree re the spread. 

Althiugh I've not seen much laughing....


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2020)

Golf closed in Wales. Bad news.

the folk screaming “don’t risk lives by opening up for Christmas“ are now complaining about the tightening of regulations.  Ho hum.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			People will still break because I still think these are guidelines not law unlike Wales who made it law
		
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Imo Xmas should have been cancelled for all. 

If nobody is allowed to mix then it's a lot easier to police.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 19, 2020)

IanM said:



			Golf closed in Wales. Bad news.

the folk screaming “don’t risk lives by opening up for Christmas“ are now complaining about the tightening of regulations.  Ho hum.
		
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On the plus side. 

You are allowed to congregate to talk to an imaginary entity that is reposmsibile for all the good in the world but has a get out for the bad....


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## IanM (Dec 19, 2020)

Bobby Jones was real...I’ve seen a video!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That forum is only for GMC registered doctors. There is a lot of discussion and updates from doctors involved in treating Covid, and with expertise in virology, immunology and infectious diseases.

This new strain will be all over the country soon. Those laughing at London and the SE now may soon not be laughing.
		
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Why do you say it’ll be all over the Country soon? Hasn’t there been other mutations that haven’t spread as badly?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Imo Xmas should have been cancelled for all.

If nobody is allowed to mix then it's a lot easier to police.
		
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It's how it should have been to start with imo

1 day  (2 at a push.. ) 5 was crazy 

Then travel? Should have capped it at 50 miles or maybe in the same area or something 

Form Xmas bubbles with people you know rather than try to make it normal 

Say your a family of 4 families split into 2 smaller families and have small gatherings 

Or meet with your neighbour or anything 

I knew people who were going from Nottingham to Essex for 5 days .. that's just stupid.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 19, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I tend to agree re the spread.

Althiugh I've not seen much laughing....
		
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I don’t think folk have been laughing at London, apart from the numptys. In fact some folk were narked that it seemed London/ the south was getting favoured tiers. Some parts of London were equivalent to parts of the north yet north in tier 3 London in tier 2.  But who was to blame for that. Londoners or the people making the decisions.
This new strain is not a laughing matter.


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why do you say it’ll be all over the Country soon? Hasn’t there been other mutations that haven’t spread as badly?
		
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It is already around the whole country, albeit more common in the SE. It is the nature of more transmissible strains that they become more dominant. In practice, more transmissible strains increases the number of cases by reducing the time they take to move through the population.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is already around the whole country, albeit more common in the SE. It is the nature of more transmissible strains that they become more dominant. In practice, more transmissible strains increases the number of cases by reducing the time they take to move through the population.
		
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So without upsetting anyone on here, if it’s already around the whole Country, why not put everyone in tier 4 or would that make no difference to this strain?


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 19, 2020)

And no one complains about professional sport being allowed to continue, with all their hugging and kissing each other. Two faced. You'll all sit in your armchairs watching it on TV coz you've already forked out the readies for it, but won't condemn it. Just why is that? 

I'll never trust anyone again. They are all liars and cheats and only in it for themselves.  We have been badly let down.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 19, 2020)

Colonel Bogey said:



			And no one complains about professional sport being allowed to continue, with all their hugging and kissing each other. Two faced. You'll all sit in your armchairs watching it on TV coz you've already forked out the readies for it, but won't condemn it. Just why is that?

I'll never trust anyone again. They are all liars and cheats and only in it for themselves.  We have been badly let down.
		
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Amount of testing they go through to keep it going ...

Plus they can't work from home lol

Keeps the population entertained a bit which right now everyone needs a slight bit of normality


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			So without upsetting anyone on here, if it’s already around the whole Country, why not put everyone in tier 4 or would that make no difference to this strain?
		
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Chris Whitty said it was present in other parts of the country at the news conference, and it would be incredulous if it weren't. Recently, the more stringent rules oop North have kept it under some degree of control, but if those rules don't continue, cases will inevitably rise and they will disproportionately be the new strain. 

I expect that discussion of some of the reasons for not acting elsewhere fall under a category prohibited by the forum rules.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 19, 2020)

Going to get 18 holes in now on Monday as won’t be held up by 4-balls!  Happy days!!!


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## backwoodsman (Dec 19, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I don’t think folk have been laughing at London, apart from the numptys. In fact some folk were narked that *it seemed London/ the south was getting favoured tiers. Some parts of London were equivalent to parts of the north yet north in tier 3 London in tier 2*.  But who was to blame for that. Londoners or the people making the decisions.
This new strain is not a laughing matter.
		
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Not really that true Tashy. For a long time London was doing alright - and was well below the national averages. Only recently have the numbers climbed - and they've climbed damn quickly. My borough has gone from about 95  to about 350 per 100K in about 10 days. The mystery  - to me at least - was why . As far as I can tell no-one round here has been doing anything different than they have for the past few months. Since lockdown 1, most have been acting reasonably sensibly, some acting stupid and ignoring rules. And its still like that - which is no real cause for the rapid change in numbers? The more transmissible new variant seems to suggest a reasonable explanation. Lets just hope that Tier 4 keeps the prevalence of new variant confined to the south east. But I'd not hold my breath.

As to those who despair about the images of places like Oxford Street, one would just say all things are relative. Comparatively, the street is pretty deserted in relation to what its normally like.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 20, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Not really that true Tashy. For a long time London was doing alright - and was well below the national averages. Only recently have the numbers climbed - and they've climbed damn quickly. My borough has gone from about 95  to about 350 per 100K in about 10 days. The mystery  - to me at least - was why . As far as I can tell no-one round here has been doing anything different than they have for the past few months. Since lockdown 1, most have been acting reasonably sensibly, some acting stupid and ignoring rules. And its still like that - which is no real cause for the rapid change in numbers? The more transmissible new variant seems to suggest a reasonable explanation. Lets just hope that Tier 4 keeps the prevalence of new variant confined to the south east. But I'd not hold my breath.

As to those who despair about the images of places like Oxford Street, one would just say all things are relative. Comparatively, the street is pretty deserted in relation to what its normally like.
		
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The biggest spreader is the schools, and until they realise schools should have been shut ages ok nothing will improve.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The biggest spreader is the schools, and until they realise schools should have been shut ages ok nothing will improve.
		
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They will not close schools. For one education is the most important thing..

Two it's kids futures .. they can't afford to have another lost year 

Three childcare. Without kids in school parents can't work etc. Which stalls their economic limp through plans.

They are doing everything to rightly keep schools open 

Secondary schools will be offered weekly testing or daily testing if someone in a year tests postive instead of isolating everyone offered tests 

They will shut down everything bar schools.

Children are the future.


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## KenL (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The biggest spreader is the schools, and until they realise schools should have been shut ages ok nothing will improve.
		
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Has that been proven?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2020)

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-19...train-leaving-london-ahead-of-tier-4-lockdown

Is anyone surprised

That’s what happens when you give the country 8 hours notice instead of the very least a day or so - stupid


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-19...train-leaving-london-ahead-of-tier-4-lockdown

Is anyone surprised
		
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What is it twitter said .. Boris is the first person to evacuate London since 1939


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## backwoodsman (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-19...train-leaving-london-ahead-of-tier-4-lockdown

Is anyone surprised

That’s what happens when you give the country 8 hours notice instead of the very least a day or so - stupid
		
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Nope, not surprised. It was bound to happen. It happens every time a major city gets subject to severe restrictions - especially at short notice. Back in the year,  there were similar images from Paris and from Madrid when they got put under severe restriction. I dare say it happened elsewhere too but (for me) less memorably so.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2020)

Silly question if this strain is more contagious, will it not burn itself out quicker?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bit of good news, Christmas celebrations are reduced, so last night the wife was looking through this mornings Waitrose delivery. Loads of unnecessary stuff in the order, and we were thinking freeze it and live off it for the next 2-3months. However you can cancel it at the door if you don’t touch it. 👍


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-19...train-leaving-london-ahead-of-tier-4-lockdown

Is anyone surprised

That’s what happens when you give the country 8 hours notice instead of the very least a day or so - stupid
		
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Exporting more of the new strain to other parts of the country, after spreading it around a bit more at the station first.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-19...train-leaving-london-ahead-of-tier-4-lockdown

Is anyone surprised

That’s what happens when you give the country 8 hours notice instead of the very least a day or so - stupid
		
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So we have a quart being squeezed into a pint pot. For eight hours.You think it's stupid to give only eight hours notice. What is stupid are the people not willing to help alleviate a critical situation, and who should be staying put, unless essential.
(The example given in the piece , the woman's statement ,was not essential.)
As Ethan says, it doesn't matter to them that they are spreading this virus strain over the rest of the country.
And do you really think that had there been 48 hours notice that there wouldn't have been an Exodus for that 48  hours?
Would more people or less have left than those able to in that eight hours?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 20, 2020)

The lockdown should have been with immediate effect. Of course the idiots were going to pile out of London. Its what they did last time. Its not enough that they are spreading it round down there. Now they are spreading round the country.


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## hovis (Dec 20, 2020)

I'm not usually a conspiracy type person but I'm not sure about the new strain thing. I just think the government needed a smoking gun to stop them losing face when they done a complete u turn on the Xmas plans and the decision not to put London into tier three from the get go. 
Can you imagine how much stick they would have got if this "new strain" didn't exist.   
I'm not saying there isn't variants of the virus by the way.  Just all very convenient


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## Colonel Bogey (Dec 20, 2020)

Is anyone even slightly surprised that the South, the most densely populated part of the country, is now facing the lockdown that they should have been in months ago? The only reason they were not put into proper lockdown, is the fact they have more facilities down there to cope, ie more hospitals and doctors and nurses, so although the virus was rife the NHS down there could cope. BUT NOW IT CAN'T!!!! And now they are rushing to get away from the dirty smell hell hole they live in and spread the virus all over the country!!! And the government are allowing this. Well of course they are, they have all the money down there. Don't want to upset money now do we? And now most of the country are to suffer due to certain people not following guidelines and spreading the virus. Me and my familly have followed the instructions to the letter and now are expected to not see evch other over Xmas due to these selfish morons. Well, to hell with that. We've done our bit to ensure we can meet up at Xmas and the governemtn can go to hell with their rules now. Have you seen to roads and shops in the lead up to xmas? In the words of Ricky tOmlinson, lockdown my ar$e! People walking around with masks, supermarkets rammed every bloomin' day. People at work who shouldn't be. Old people out shopping! Why? why????? Most people have not bothered about the tiers and obeyed rules this time. So for once in my life I'm going to go against advice and do whatever I want to do.

Don't bother to slag me off for this I'm not gonna read any replies. Just needed to vent. 

Have a great Xmas. I damn well will !!!!!! I've bloody earnt it!


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			The lockdown should have been with immediate effect. Of course the idiots were going to pile out of London. Its what they did last time. *Its not enough that they are spreading it round down there. Now they are spreading round the country.*

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Lol... you sound ready to form a Northern militia to send em back home! Checkpoints at the stations and barricade the M6😂

#reetproudboys


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Lol... you sound ready to form a Northern militia to send em back home! Checkpoints at the stations and barricade the M6😂

#reetproudboys
		
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Sounds like a good plan to me.
Invasion of the superspreaders to rural Scotland is something that has to be avoided.
Thankfully borders now closed by Scots Gov.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 20, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Lol... you sound ready to form a Northern militia to send em back home! Checkpoints at the stations and barricade the M6😂

#reetproudboys
		
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🙄 Not sure why that would help me in Rural Cambridgeshire. But whatever gets you excited... 

Anyway, It wouldn't take much of a malitia to keep the soft southern shandy drinkers at bay.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sounds like a good plan to me.
Invasion of the superspreaders to rural Scotland is something that has to be avoided.
Thankfully borders now closed by Scots Gov.
		
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Only briefly lifting the barricades to let the lorry loads of filthy southern cash in eh? (And the women of course 😆)


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## pendodave (Dec 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			I'm not usually a conspiracy type person but I'm not sure about the new strain thing. I just think the government needed a smoking gun to stop them losing face when they done a complete u turn on the Xmas plans and the decision not to put London into tier three from the get go.
Can you imagine how much stick they would have got if this "new strain" didn't exist.  
I'm not saying there isn't variants of the virus by the way.  Just all very convenient
		
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You dont need to be David Icke to think that the numbers are being carefully presented.
Testing in london has been massively increased over the last couple of weeks.
For example, consider Havering, London plague central.
Big increase in testing.
The % positive is pretty constant, but "cases" increase proportionally.
Meanwhile, calls to 911 reporting covid symptoms have been constant since september.
Odd, but the trouble is, the lack of effective journalism (courtesy of ofcom) and the absence of any parliamentary scrutiny means that we are well through the looking glass.


ì


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## BiMGuy (Dec 20, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Only briefly lifting the barricades to let the lorry loads of filthy southern cash in eh? (And the women of course 😆)
		
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A bank transfer would be sufficient. No need for cash.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2020)

pendodave said:



			You dont need to be David Icke to think that the numbers are being carefully presented.
Testing in london has been massively increased over the last couple of weeks.
For example, consider Havering, London plague central.
Big increase in testing.
The % positive is pretty constant, but "cases" increase proportionally.
Meanwhile, calls to 911 reporting covid symptoms have been constant since september.
Odd, but the trouble is, the lack of effective journalism (courtesy of ofcom) and the absence of any parliamentary scrutiny means that we are well through the looking glass.
View attachment 34059
View attachment 34060
ì
		
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I can confirm this, living as I do in Havering (Unclean unclean!!) we have had a letter from the council telling us to just turn up at any of the boroughs walk in testing centres for a test as many times as we want. Also compulsory for my 16 year old who must have a negative test result dated after the 2nd of January otherwise he will not be allowed back in college.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sounds like a good plan to me.
Invasion of the superspreaders to rural Scotland is something that has to be avoided.
Thankfully borders now closed by Scots Gov.
		
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Thought Ayrshire was in tier 3...

Don't t fancy crossing the border from rural Cumbria to higher tiers....😉

Not seen anything in our local press about border closed at Gretna.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bit of a breakout at my wife’s school in the last few days of term. 10 teachers having tests (including my wife) after 1 rushed to hospital with confirmed COVID. My wife who suffers with anxiety has obviously been worried as we have been awaiting test results, not helped by everyone who was tested before her coming back positive. 

Our results have just come through, both negative so feeling much better about the situation.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 20, 2020)

KenL said:



			Has that been proven?
		
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Seeing as we've had 6th form segments of schools closing because of the number of positive tests and cases around here I would say so.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 20, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Only briefly lifting the barricades to let the lorry loads of filthy southern cash in eh? (And the women of course 😆)
		
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We'll take your cash but....


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They will not close schools. For one education is the most important thing..

Two it's kids futures .. they can't afford to have another lost year

Three childcare. Without kids in school parents can't work etc. Which stalls their economic limp through plans.

They are doing everything to rightly keep schools open

Secondary schools will be offered weekly testing or daily testing if someone in a year tests postive instead of isolating everyone offered tests

They will shut down everything bar schools.

Children are the future.
		
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Children may be the future, but unless that bitter pill is swallowed we will continue to drip feed the virus around the country. They could have extended the Xmas holiday back into late November but chose not to.
I get you don't want the schools closed as you have kids, but unless a lockdown is a real lockdown we will continue endlessly chasing the tail of this virus as people follow the rules less and less because as we all know everyone is doing as asked aren't they...


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## backwoodsman (Dec 20, 2020)

Colonel Bogey said:



			Is anyone even slightly surprised that the South, the most densely populated part of the country, is now facing the lockdown that they should have been in months ago? The only reason they were not put into proper lockdown, is the fact they have more facilities down there to cope, ie more hospitals and doctors and nurses, so although the virus was rife the NHS down there could cope. BUT NOW IT CAN'T!!!! And now they are rushing to get away from the dirty smell hell hole they live in and spread the virus all over the country!!! And the government are allowing this. Well of course they are, they have all the money down there. Don't want to upset money now do we? And now most of the country are to suffer due to certain people not following guidelines and spreading the virus. Me and my familly have followed the instructions to the letter and now are expected to not see evch other over Xmas due to these selfish morons. Well, to hell with that. We've done our bit to ensure we can meet up at Xmas and the governemtn can go to hell with their rules now. Have you seen to roads and shops in the lead up to xmas? In the words of Ricky tOmlinson, lockdown my ar$e! People walking around with masks, supermarkets rammed every bloomin' day. People at work who shouldn't be. Old people out shopping! Why? why????? Most people have not bothered about the tiers and obeyed rules this time. So for once in my life I'm going to go against advice and do whatever I want to do.

Don't bother to slag me off for this I'm not gonna read any replies. Just needed to vent.

Have a great Xmas. I damn well will !!!!!! I've bloody earnt it!
		
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I know Colonel Bogey  said he'd not read replies. So be it. But what a load of b'lox.  No we in London  shouldn't have been in lockdown months ago. And no the virus was not rife down here. Not until very recently.   And the whole country has been suffering for a long time because of selfish people not following rules. But that been people everywhere across the whole country, for pretty much the whole time  since it started.  There you go, thats my rant over. And yes i will read replies - but may not bother to answer


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## User62651 (Dec 20, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Thought Ayrshire was in tier 3...

Don't t fancy crossing the border from rural Cumbria to higher tiers....😉

Not seen anything in our local press about border closed at Gretna.
		
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I think when they say closed it's a decent deterrent only particularly for the 2nd home lot looking to escape to as rural a location as possible during lockdown, not enforceable though with 25 or so road crossings on ENG/SCO border, would need checkpoints on each?
There will be flouting of rules galore I'm afraid. You just need an excuse that the visit is for caring for a relative or a work trip.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Children may be the future, but unless that bitter pill is swallowed we will continue to drip feed the virus around the country. They could have extended the Xmas holiday back into late November but chose not to.
I get you don't want the schools closed as you have kids, but unless a lockdown is a real lockdown we will continue endlessly chasing the tail of this virus as people follow the rules less and less because as we all know everyone is doing as asked aren't they...
		
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My kids aren't in school my children are nursery age.

My mother and sister both are teachers keeping schools open

Majority of education support schools open as it's the correct thing to do

People think this is bad for mental health but if we closed schools it would be even worse for children.

Schools must remain open regardless


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## road2ruin (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My kids aren't in school my children are nursery age.

My mother and sister both are teachers keeping schools open

Majority of education support schools open as it's the correct thing to do

People think this is bad for mental health but if we closed schools it would be even worse for children.

Schools must remain open regardless
		
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I witnessed first hand what the initial lockdown did to my 6yr old daughter without having proper schooling and the opportunity to see her friends. Her behaviour deteriorated, her mood swings were epic (even by 6yr old standards) and she wasn’t the same happy little lady she had been beforehand. She went back in June and the change in her was almost instant, she suddenly had a bounce in her step, she loved it and I genuinely think her mental health improved by going back for those 6 weeks. 

Now, bare in mind that that this is a little girl who had full parental support as we were both furloughed. She had all the required tech etc. Thousands of other children were not nearly as lucky and will undoubtedly face a future even less certain that it always was.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I witnessed first hand what the initial lockdown did to my 6yr old daughter without having proper schooling and the opportunity to see her friends. Her behaviour deteriorated, her mood swings were epic (even by 6yr old standards) and she wasn’t the same happy little lady she had been beforehand. She went back in June and the change in her was almost instant, she suddenly had a bounce in her step, she loved it and I genuinely think her mental health improved by going back for those 6 weeks.

Now, bare in mind that that this is a little girl who had full parental support as we were both furloughed. She had all the required tech etc. Thousands of other children were not nearly as lucky and will undoubtedly face a future even less certain that it always was.
		
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Well said. 

Plus also kids with learning needs who need the routine of school to function

Education and schools is so important and they are doing everything they can to mitigate for spreading I applaud them for that


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 20, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Not seen anything in our local press about border closed at Gretna.
		
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Haven't the Scots got that wall they built to celebrate the last time the beat the English at football?


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## hovis (Dec 20, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I witnessed first hand what the initial lockdown did to my 6yr old daughter without having proper schooling and the opportunity to see her friends. Her behaviour deteriorated, her mood swings were epic (even by 6yr old standards) and she wasn’t the same happy little lady she had been beforehand. She went back in June and the change in her was almost instant, she suddenly had a bounce in her step, she loved it and I genuinely think her mental health improved by going back for those 6 weeks.

Now, bare in mind that that this is a little girl who had full parental support as we were both furloughed. She had all the required tech etc. Thousands of other children were not nearly as lucky and will undoubtedly face a future even less certain that it always was.
		
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I can't agree more.  My daughter is also 6 and I experienced exactly what you have said.  I'm not a worrier by nature but I was very concerned by the change in my daughters demeanour.
Since they've been back there hasn't been a single reported case.

Imo most of the people saying close schools don't have children in school.  I have to admit,  I probably would have said the same before I had kids


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 20, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Haven't the Scots got that wall they built to celebrate the last time the beat the English at football?  

Click to expand...

Bit of a botch job, its in a terrible state of disrepair now.....


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Bit of a botch job, its in a terrible state of disrepair now.....

Click to expand...

It's also well below the border. I don't fancy being reclassified as living in Scotland thank you 😳


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 20, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Bit of a botch job, its in a terrible state of disrepair now.....

Click to expand...

Italian workmanship!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's also well below the border. I don't fancy being reclassified as living in Scotland thank you 😳
		
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Only 60 odd miles out on your side, not too far off on my side


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 20, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Italian workmanship!
		
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I don't think the Italians did much of the grafting to be fair...


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## larmen (Dec 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			I cImo most of the people saying close schools don't have children in school.  I have to admit,  I probably would have said the same before I had kids
		
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And most people calling for total shut down are retired and are getting their monthly cheque regardless.


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## Billysboots (Dec 20, 2020)

There are some sweeping generalisations being made on this thread at the moment 🙄


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Seeing as we've had 6th form segments of schools closing because of the number of positive tests and cases around here I would say so.
		
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So pure speculation and no facts to back up.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			I can't agree more.  My daughter is also 6 and I experienced exactly what you have said.  I'm not a worrier by nature but I was very concerned by the change in my daughters demeanour.
Since they've been back there hasn't been a single reported case.

Imo most of the people saying close schools don't have children in school.  I have to admit,  I probably would have said the same before I had kids
		
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My daughter has a step daughter now in 6th form. She (step dau) has had to self isolate 2 times due to fellow pupils contracting  the virus, and now the 6th form has had to close ( 2 weeks ago) due to the numbers testing positive.
My youngest has had countless of her clients cancelling their hair appointments due to their kids having to self isolate due to positive cases in their classes.
I have golfing partners who have also similar tales with their grandkids.
It's not the case of "no kids say shut the school", it's what I (and many) are seeing.
To me it's  more a case of short sharp massive pain or very long drawn out lesser pain.


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## Slime (Dec 20, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			There are some sweeping generalisations being made on this thread at the moment 🙄
		
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That's because a lot are self-elected experts, especially with the benefit of hindsight.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My daughter has a step daughter now in 6th form. She (step dau) has had to self isolate 2 times due to fellow pupils contracting  the virus, and now the 6th form has had to close ( 2 weeks ago) due to the numbers testing positive.
My youngest has had countless of her clients cancelling their hair appointments due to their kids having to self isolate due to positive cases in their classes.
I have golfing partners who have also similar tales with their grandkids.
It's not the case of "no kids say shut the school", it's what I (and many) are seeing.
To me it's  more a case of short sharp massive pain or very long drawn out lesser pain.
		
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Luckily it's not up to you. As it wouldn't be a short pain at all as only short term thinkers see the small picture.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So pure speculation and no facts to back up.
		
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If you want facts from a book, then no.
If you want facts from what has happened to some I now then yes.
However everyone has their own individual view tainted by their own needs.
Personally having been made redundant this year due to the way things have gone and the virus, and now self employed I would happily take the financial pain of nothing coming in if we could have a proper lock down that was enforced and saw the end of this virus.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			I'm not usually a conspiracy type person but I'm not sure about the new strain thing. I just think the government needed a smoking gun to stop them losing face when they done a complete u turn on the Xmas plans and the decision not to put London into tier three from the get go.
Can you imagine how much stick they would have got if this "new strain" didn't exist.  
I'm not saying there isn't variants of the virus by the way.  Just all very convenient
		
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Think it's something to talk about to distract the talk of 31st December


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## hovis (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			My daughter has a step daughter now in 6th form. She (step dau) has had to self isolate 2 times due to fellow pupils contracting  the virus, and now the 6th form has had to close ( 2 weeks ago) due to the numbers testing positive.
My youngest has had countless of her clients cancelling their hair appointments due to their kids having to self isolate due to positive cases in their classes.
I have golfing partners who have also similar tales with their grandkids.
It's not the case of "no kids say shut the school", it's what I (and many) are seeing.
To me it's  more a case of short sharp massive pain or very long drawn out lesser pain.
		
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Short sharp pain?  If they kept kids off school because of the risk of spreading coronavirus then they would still be off from march.  That's not short.  With this going on until spring at least that's 1 year at best for kids to stay at home.    That's not going to happen...... Mainly because I don't have the mental strength and mental resilience to play barbie, lol dolls and judge her gymnastic ability for a year but also the knock on effect of a year to a year and half out of school.  Imagine a kid leaving school at 14.5 years old and getting a Job


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The biggest spreader is the schools, and until they realise schools should have been shut ages ok nothing will improve.
		
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Talking to next door neighbours an hour ago. There’s a kid at a local school who has been going to school for four days. Both parents have had Covid for four days. The school has had to send the whole year home. Suffice to say the school wants to know why the parents sent the kid to school. Like Ave said before, common sense ain’t that common.


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## Beezerk (Dec 20, 2020)

The daughters mother has tested positive, apparently her self isolation doesn't end until 27th December 
I'm picking up my daughter from Uni shortly, she's in bits because she won't be able to see her mother over Christmas.
Ouch!


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 20, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Thought Ayrshire was in tier 3...

Don't t fancy crossing the border from rural Cumbria to higher tiers....😉

Not seen anything in our local press about border closed at Gretna.
		
Click to expand...

Movement between different councils illegal form 26th  Dec.
Scotland has 5 tiers and no area has ever been in the highest one.
All of mainland Scotland going into tier 4 from Boxing day, Tough on the Borders and D&G.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			Short sharp pain?  If they kept kids off school because of the risk of spreading coronavirus then they would still be off from march.  That's not short.  With this going on until spring at least that's 1 year at best for kids to stay at home.    That's not going to happen...... Mainly because I don't have the mental strength and mental resilience to play barbie, lol dolls and judge her gymnastic ability for a year but also the knock on effect of a year to a year and half out of school.  Imagine a kid leaving school at 14.5 years old and getting a Job
		
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I agree it's not a good prospect, but then nothing either side of the coin is. The virus has been allowed to embed itself to well in this country for us to be able to carry out an effective course of action, so now all we can do its have our own opinions and ideas whether others agree with them or not.

Whats even more worrying is those countries that managed to control and almost rid themselves of it are seeing a resurgance of it.
Perhaps the conspiracy theorists had it right


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## KenL (Dec 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Movement between different councils illegal form 26th  Dec.
Scotland has 5 tiers and no area has ever been in the highest one.
All of mainland Scotland going into tier 4 from Boxing day, Tough on the Borders and D&G.
		
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And tier 1 or 2 areas up north.


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## ger147 (Dec 20, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Movement between different councils illegal form 26th  Dec.
*Scotland has 5 tiers and no area has ever been in the highest one*.
All of mainland Scotland going into tier 4 from Boxing day, Tough on the Borders and D&G.
		
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Incorrect, massive chunks of west central Scotland have already been in Tier 4, we have just recently returned to Tier 3.

Tier 4 is the highest tier in Scotland as the numbering runs from 0 to 4.


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## KenL (Dec 20, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Incorrect, massive chunks of west central Scotland have already been in Tier 4, we have just recently returned to Tier 3.

Tier 4 is the highest tier in Scotland as the numbering runs from 0 to 4.
		
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0 to 4 is five tiers.


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## larmen (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I
Whats even more worrying is those countries that managed to control and almost rid themselves of it are seeing a resurgance of it.
		
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The world is too mobile for this to keep contained. Britain is an island and had peak conditions to exclude it, but once you let the 1st boat or plane in ...
I can’t remember who it was, but someone on this forum lives on a warm island that went for full lockdown and they kept it very much out.
And if they never ever want a tourist then they could keep it out.

I think it was always about buying time for a vaccine, we are nearly there now. That’s my hope, at least.


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## ger147 (Dec 20, 2020)

KenL said:



			0 to 4 is five tiers.
		
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Yes I know, I can count.  The statement that was incorrect is that no area has ever been in the highest tier.  Many areas have already been in T4.


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## KenL (Dec 20, 2020)

larmen said:



			The world is too mobile for this to keep contained. Britain is an island and had peak conditions to exclude it, but once you let the 1st boat or plane in ...
I can’t remember who it was, but someone on this forum lives on a warm island that went for full lockdown and they kept it very much out.
And if they never ever want a tourist then they could keep it out.

I think it was always about buying time for a vaccine, we are nearly there now. That’s my hope, at least.
		
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The sky around LHR has been like this all the time.  Even right at the start plenty planes landing every day from China.


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## KenL (Dec 20, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Yes I know, I can count.  The statement that was incorrect is that no area has ever been in the highest tier.  Many areas have already been in T4.
		
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Agreed and I have no idea why they were allowed to go down to tier 3.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

hovis said:



			Short sharp pain?  If they kept kids off school because of the risk of spreading coronavirus then they would still be off from march.  That's not short.  With this going on until spring at least that's 1 year at best for kids to stay at home.    That's not going to happen...... Mainly because I don't have the mental strength and mental resilience to play barbie, lol dolls and judge her gymnastic ability for a year but also the knock on effect of a year to a year and half out of school.  Imagine a kid leaving school at 14.5 years old and getting a Job
		
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Thinking outside the box and would still need a lot of ironing out, but why not increase the school leaving age to 17 for the next 10yrs to give all children the chance to catch up, 6th form 17-19, Uni 19 onwards, Uni may not be a big issue as this would be the same as every one taking a gap year.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Thinking outside the box and would still need a lot of ironing out, but why not increase the school leaving age to 17 for the next 10yrs to give all children the chance to catch up, 6th form 17-19, Uni 19 onwards, Uni may not be a big issue as this would be the same as every one taking a gap year.
		
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So the country Is broke, how are we going to find the teachers for another year at school? We don't have the staff for what we need now


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2020)

Not sure if this has been said so apologies if it has.  But if London is in Tier 4, why are trains running so folk can travel to tier 3 and 2. 🤔


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Not sure if this has been said so apologies if it has.  But if London is in Tier 4, why are trains running so folk can travel to tier 3 and 2. 🤔
		
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Trains will always run. They are there for essienal travel

Half our staff have to use the trains to get to work so they will always run

Trains are part of key services to the country.


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Not sure if this has been said so apologies if it has.  But if London is in Tier 4, why are trains running so folk can travel to tier 3 and 2. 🤔
		
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What about the people travelling back and forth for work


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So the country Is broke, how are we going to find the teachers for another year at school? We don't have the staff for what we need now
		
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Why would you need more Teachers? Children will be repeating this year, ie, every child is put back 1 year.

And, as I tried to say, it’s thinking outside the box to protect our children and their education! Look at what they’ve already missed out on this year.

Please try and remember this is just people “chewing the fat” on a public forum, no one is claiming to have all the answers.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why would you need more Teachers? Children will be repeating this year, ie, every child is put back 1 year.

And, as I tried to say, it’s thinking outside the box to protect our children and their education! Look at what they’ve already missed out on this year.

Please try and remember this is just people “chewing the fat” on a public forum, no one is claiming to have all the answers.

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Well you still have a new intake of kids starting school so you now have 14 year groups instead of 13 to A level 

Unless you delay the new starters by a year, but that will have implications on their development and their parents work plans


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well you still have a new intake of kids starting school so you now have 14 year groups instead of 13 to A level

Unless you delay the new starters by a year, but that will have implications on their development and their parents work plans
		
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Or cost more money because you would need more early childcare which is hard to get as it is

It's a real non starter


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Why would you need more Teachers? Children will be repeating this year, ie, every child is put back 1 year.

And, as I tried to say, it’s thinking outside the box to protect our children and their education! Look at what they’ve already missed out on this year.

Please try and remember this is just people “chewing the fat” on a public forum, no one is claiming to have all the answers.

Click to expand...

As Phil says you would get new intake. You couldn't delay them a year so you would need another years worth of teachers
It's really never that simple.

There is chewing the fat and living in fantasy land


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## AmandaJR (Dec 20, 2020)

I don't have kids but know how important educating every generation is. We must do everything to avoid closing schools. I think universities could be treated differently without as much damage being done but up to 6th Form has to stay open unless there really is no option.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			There is chewing the fat and living in fantasy land
		
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Or we could accept that there are others with different opinions and ideas other than our own. Something sounding mad to one sounds totally sensible to another.
Don't forget Barnes-Wallace was thought mad at the initial outset.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Exporting more of the new strain to other parts of the country, after spreading it around a bit more at the station first.
		
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It was always going to happen though with the timing of the announcement, anyone living on their own was going to get out of London as soon as they could so that they could spend Xmas with someone. 


Swinglowandslow said:



			So we have a quart being squeezed into a pint pot. For eight hours.You think it's stupid to give only eight hours notice. What is stupid are the people not willing to help alleviate a critical situation, and who should be staying put, unless essential.
(The example given in the piece , the woman's statement ,was not essential.)
As Ethan says, it doesn't matter to them that they are spreading this virus strain over the rest of the country.
And do you really think that had there been 48 hours notice that there wouldn't have been an Exodus for that 48  hours?
Would more people or less have left than those able to in that eight hours?
		
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The people were in Tier 3 with the belief that in a couple of days they would be able to create a bubble with family to spend a bit of time over Xmas together - all within the rules at the time. As soon as they announced that’s all been taken away from you in 8 hours what do people expect those to do ? Just stay at home on their own or get out of Tier 4 within those 8 hours so they could get some sort of Xmas with their family. Give people a couple of days so that there wasn’t a mad rush with trains full to the brim. 

it appears to be a case of flying by the seat of their pants with lots of u turns and flip flopping and a lot of people are losing faith quickly


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Or we could accept that there are others with different opinions and ideas other than our own. Something sounding mad to one sounds totally sensible to another.
Don't forget Barnes-Wallace was thought mad at the initial outset.
		
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He does it on every thread, if you’re not agreeing with him you get dismissed.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2020)

I'm not making a statement here, just trying to understand the mechanics of the new virus strain.

How does it spread easier than the previous strain. I assume it is transmitted by airborne particles that are breathed in or picked up off surfaces where they have settled as does the previous, so what makes these new particles more virulent. Do they work faster once ingested.

Really interested to understand it.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			He does it on every thread, if you’re not agreeing with him you get dismissed.
		
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Hello Mr pot... Where's Mr kettle


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 20, 2020)

I hope all the idiots posting on social media that they will be flouting the rules at Christmas get a knock on the door from plod and a hefty fine.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well you still have a new intake of kids starting school so you now have 14 year groups instead of 13 to A level

Unless you delay the new starters by a year, but that will have implications on their development and their parents work plans
		
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So Class sizes may need to be increased or the Government supply more resources, but the current truth of the matter is that many kids are missing and have missed huge chunks of their education, I’m trying to come up with a way to help all Children to have the opportunity to catch up, rather than simply saying “you must keep them open”


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## SteveW86 (Dec 20, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			The daughters mother has tested positive, apparently her self isolation doesn't end until 27th December 
I'm picking up my daughter from Uni shortly, she's in bits because she won't be able to see her mother over Christmas.
Ouch!
		
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Show her your new BBQ , that will cheer her up


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I hope all the idiots posting on social media that they will be flouting the rules at Christmas get a knock on the door from plod and a hefty fine.
		
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Their idiots. If your going to break the rules why on earth would you post it


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Thinking outside the box and would still need a lot of ironing out, but why not increase the school leaving age to 17 for the next 10yrs to give all children the chance to catch up, 6th form 17-19, Uni 19 onwards, Uni may not be a big issue as this would be the same as every one taking a gap year.
		
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I was talking about this earlier in the year, my 15 yo son was awarded 7/8s across the board without sitting an exam, I think he should have gone to 6th form to re-do his last year, sit his GCSE exams then do his A levels.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I was talking about this earlier in the year, my 15 yo son was awarded 7/8s across the board without sitting an exam, I think he should have gone to 6th form to re-do his last year, sit his GCSE exams then do his A levels.
		
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I believe going by my own son the 13-16yr olds may be able to catch up a bit quicker, but for those below this age the damage could be more difficult to recover and I’m yet to hear how this will be achieved, especially as I can see far more closures/isolations taking place over the next few months.
It can’t just be dumped on the Teachers without extra support or resources for them.


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## DanFST (Dec 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			So we have a quart being squeezed into a pint pot. For eight hours.You think it's stupid to give only eight hours notice. *What is stupid are the people not willing to help alleviate a critical situation, and who should be staying put, unless essential.*
(The example given in the piece , the woman's statement ,was not essential.)
As Ethan says, it doesn't matter to them that they are spreading this virus strain over the rest of the country.
?
		
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Why should they be staying put? You think the rest of the UK is going to be able to hide from the new strain? What about the people that left London for the holidays an hour before the announcement, are they Idiots too? 



BiMGuy said:



*Of course the idiots* were going to pile out of London. Its what they did last time. Its not enough that they are spreading it round down there. Now they are spreading round the country.
		
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Why are they idiots? I was one that left the day before lockdown 1. If I had stayed I would be 6 feet under.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I believe going by my own son the 13-16yr olds may be able to catch up a bit quicker, but for those below this age the damage could be more difficult to recover and I’m yet to hear how this will be achieved, especially as I can see far more closures/isolations taking place over the next few months.
It can’t just be dumped on the Teachers without extra support or resources for them.
		
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Whilst it's been handled badly the plan has always been keep schools open, test test test and then once the vaccine is rolled out further restrictions can be lifted.

Blair called for this in November and now it's almost spot on what he was suggesting .. it always seems to be that the government can't admit that they made the mistake and an idea suggested from the other party was a better one.

Schools will stay open throughout and it's getting safer than ever with the new testing system to catch asymptomatic cases .


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I don't have kids but know how important educating every generation is. We must do everything to avoid closing schools. I think universities could be treated differently without as much damage being done but up to 6th Form has to stay open unless there really is no option.
		
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I've got 2 kids at, different, university. When they arrived last term it was a free for all, thousands of people criss crossing the country, no tests. Covid ripped through although thankfully seems to have minimal impact on the students themselves due to their youth. The surrounding residents .......who knows.

By part way through the terms the local councils and universities were much smarter. Frequent testing available, support for students isolating, lectures online if numbers increased, relaxed if not. Before returning students were encouraged to get tested. If positive they were asked not to travel. Going back they are staggering the return and I would expect them to be tested again straight away. They have learnt a lot and I would expect that to continue. 

I can only go off 2 universities but I would expect others to have gone down a similar route. In effect, I would not expect universities to have the same issue come January (I know I'm setting myself up there 😲), and if they do they will handle it quicker and better.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 20, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Why should they be staying put? You think the rest of the UK is going to be able to hide from the new strain? What about the people that left London for the holidays an hour before the announcement, are they Idiots too?



Why are they idiots? I was one that left the day before lockdown 1. If I had stayed I would be 6 feet under.
		
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There is a difference between foresight and panic. In my opinion people who made plans to leave London after the announcement are potentially spreading the virus far and wide and are therefore irresponsible.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst it's been handled badly the plan has always been keep schools open, test test test and then once the vaccine is rolled out further restrictions can be lifted.

Blair called for this in November and now it's almost spot on what he was suggesting .. it always seems to be that the government can't admit that they made the mistake and an idea suggested from the other party was a better one.

Schools will stay open throughout and it's getting safer than ever with the new testing system to catch asymptomatic cases .
		
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I’m not talking about closing schools, I’ve not once suggested closing schools! I’m on about how we make up for the time the kids have missed being there, for what ever reason.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not talking about closing schools, I’ve not once suggested closing schools! I’m on about how we make up for the time the kids have missed being there, for what ever reason.
		
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They have delayed exams by 3 weeks thus far to help kids catch up.

Online working

They should be support to get them back up to standard


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## DanFST (Dec 20, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			There is a difference between foresight and panic. In my opinion people who made plans to leave London after the announcement are potentially spreading the virus far and wide and are therefore irresponsible.
		
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But those that left before the announcement have exactly the same potential to spread the virus far and wide!


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

DanFST said:



			But those that left before the announcement have exactly the same potential to spread the virus far and wide!
		
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How many of those in the pictures saw the announcement 

How many people watched it full stop.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They have delayed exams by 3 weeks thus far to help kids catch up.

Online working

They should be support to get them back up to standard
		
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Kids learn at different speeds, 3 weeks may not be enough for some, not every household has internet, look at the debacle we had last summer, I know a few examples of kids around here who have missed a total of 3 months since March and again the issue will only get worse in the short term imo.
What happens this year to those who fail exams at 16? Unlucky, away you go and sign on.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was always going to happen though with the timing of the announcement, anyone living on their own was going to get out of London as soon as they could so that they could spend Xmas with someone. 


The people were in Tier 3 with the belief that in a couple of days they would be able to create a bubble with family to spend a bit of time over Xmas together - all within the rules at the time. As soon as they announced that’s all been taken away from you in 8 hours what do people expect those to do ? Just stay at home on their own or get out of Tier 4 within those 8 hours so they could get some sort of Xmas with their family. Give people a couple of days so that there wasn’t a mad rush with trains full to the brim. 

it appears to be a case of flying by the seat of their pants with lots of u turns and flip flopping and a lot of people are losing faith quickly
		
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In this present national crisis "getting some sort of Xmas with their family" is not the most important requirement.
Saving lives is- keeping the NHS in hospitals functioning is-

This is not a normal  battle of policies for normal living, it is about battling a virus B that doesn't recognise Xmas, your wishes, my wishes or anyone else's.
We have telephones, visual communication available to family members.
It is not insurmountable, nor cause for overwhelming mental anguish, to use those methods , just for once, whilst reminding yourself that you are trying to keep your loved ones, yourself and others  alive  so that future family meetings in Spring, summer and other Xmases, can happen.

"As our case is new, we must think anew,- then we shall save our Country"
Abraham Lincoln.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Kids learn at different speeds, 3 weeks may not be enough for some, not every household has internet, look at the debacle we had last summer, I know a few examples of kids around here who have missed a total of 3 months since March and again the issue will only get worse in the short term imo.
What happens this year to those who fail exams at 16? Unlucky, away you go and sign on.
		
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Hopefully if those fail their exams this year they are offered support to study at college the following year

Always an option to resit but need more support for this


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m not talking about closing schools, I’ve not once suggested closing schools! I’m on about how we make up for the time the kids have missed being there, for what ever reason.
		
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The teachers unions will hate this but maybe this the year when easter and summer holidays are cut short? If the Oxford vaccine comes out by next week than mass vaccination will kick in and by Easter we may start seeing some normality. Cut Easter to 1 week, summer to 3. Forget the kids sitting exams, treat them separately, and fit any missed work into those extra 4 weeks. 

Each class and school will have missed different amounts of work so each will have to gauge how much they need to catch up on.

Just a theory, no need for heads to be bitten off 😄


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The teachers unions will hate this but maybe this the year when easter and summer holidays are cut short? If the Oxford vaccine comes out by next week than mass vaccination will kick in and by Easter we may start seeing some normality. Cut Easter to 1 week, summer to 3. Forget the kids sitting exams, treat them separately, and fit any missed work into those extra 4 weeks.

Each class and school will have missed different amounts of work so each will have to gauge how much they need to catch up on.

Just a theory, no need for heads to be bitten off 😄
		
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Thank you, someone else who can actually try to look at the problem rather than dismissing it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			In this present national crisis "getting some sort of Xmas with their family" is not the most important requirement.
		
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For many it is very important , especially for mental health and well being . I know a nurse who has worked non stop and hasnt seen her family for 7 months , she was due to have Xmas off and go back home on Wednesday to spend 4 days with her family to help her just switch off - do you expect her to now sit in on her own over Xmas ? And the same with many others in that situation, people that have followed to rules to the letter in the hope of being with family for a couple of days - are you ok to tell them it doesn’t matter. I guess you have family to spend time with over Xmas so have zero concept of what it means to others




			Saving lives is- keeping the NHS in hospitals functioning is-

This is not a normal  battle of policies for normal living, it is about battling a virus B that doesn't recognise Xmas, your wishes, my wishes or anyone else's.
We have telephones, visual communication available to family members.
It is not insurmountable, nor cause for overwhelming mental anguish, to use those methods , just for once, whilst reminding yourself that you are trying to keep your loved ones, yourself and others  alive  so that future family meetings in Spring, summer and other Xmases, can happen.

"As our case is new, we must think anew,- then we shall save our Country"
Abraham Lincoln.
		
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Was that the same when everyone was encouraged to get out and eat out and spend in shops and pub and restaurants, was that in their minds when they started to get people all mixed in together or when they allowed big shops to open up and markets and cinemas. They allow indoor places of worship yet someone can’t go to their family for a day. 

The effect on people’s mental well being could end up being more dramatic 

The minute they said that people could no longer create a bubble people in Tier 4 those people with plans already they were immediately going to act so they could have some sort of normality over a very emotionally straining period.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The teachers unions will hate this but maybe this the year when easter and summer holidays are cut short? If the Oxford vaccine comes out by next week than mass vaccination will kick in and by Easter we may start seeing some normality. Cut Easter to 1 week, summer to 3. Forget the kids sitting exams, treat them separately, and fit any missed work into those extra 4 weeks.

Each class and school will have missed different amounts of work so each will have to gauge how much they need to catch up on.

Just a theory, no need for heads to be bitten off 😄
		
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Only issue is the legality of contracts 

My wife's contract is when schools are closed she is unemployed rather than it being holiday 

Its not a bad idea and most teachers would support it I'm sure but it opens a can of worms


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Only issue is the legality of contracts

My wife's contract is when schools are closed she is unemployed rather than it being holiday

Its not a bad idea and most teachers would support it I'm sure but it opens a can of worms
		
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Private school?

A can of worms indeed but these are extraordinary times and we need a bit of radical thinking. Keeping the same rigid system and expecting to manage is pushing it.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Private school?

A can of worms indeed but these are extraordinary times and we need a bit of radical thinking. Keeping the same rigid system and expecting to manage is pushing it.
		
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Not private no

Most teachers would be up for helping. All they care about is their students 

Also it wouldn't surprise me if schools closed for circuit breakers around the school holidays


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## Backache (Dec 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not making a statement here, just trying to understand the mechanics of the new virus strain.

How does it spread easier than the previous strain. I assume it is transmitted by airborne particles that are breathed in or picked up off surfaces where they have settled as does the previous, so what makes these new particles more virulent. Do they work faster once ingested.

Really interested to understand it.
		
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Virulence refers to the severity of disease. The suggestions so far are not that the virus is more virulent but that it is  more transmissible.
The explanation that I have read for the possible increase in transmission is that there are higher viral loads in the upper airway.
If you are shedding more virus you are providing others with a greater chance of picking it up.


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Their idiots. If your going to break the rules why on earth would you post it
		
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You should see what HID who works on fraud gets from social media.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You should see what HID who works on fraud gets from social media.
		
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One of my best mates wife I had to unfollow her on insta..

Posting pics of their kids birthday saying due to lockdown rules had to be smaller than normal 

5 families in a house 

You broke the rules!


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The teachers unions will hate this but maybe this the year when easter and summer holidays are cut short? If the Oxford vaccine comes out by next week than mass vaccination will kick in and by Easter we may start seeing some normality. Cut Easter to 1 week, summer to 3. Forget the kids sitting exams, treat them separately, and fit any missed work into those extra 4 weeks.

Each class and school will have missed different amounts of work so each will have to gauge how much they need to catch up on.

Just a theory, no need for heads to be bitten off 😄
		
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All talk about the Oxford vaccine seems to have dropped off, perhaps it wasn’t quite ready.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			All talk about the Oxford vaccine seems to have dropped off, perhaps it wasn’t quite ready.
		
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Wasn't there talk of it yesterday being ready by end of December?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			All talk about the Oxford vaccine seems to have dropped off, perhaps it wasn’t quite ready.
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ine-approve-christmas-covid-b1776481.html?amp


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/oxford-vaccine-approve-christmas-covid-b1776481.html?amp

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Hope its right but we were told originally to be ready for it before Christmas and have been prepping the sports centre, I have reception and car parking  must find my old SSM’s stick. Knowing my luck it will be hissing down.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Wasn't there talk of it yesterday being ready by end of December?
		
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Dec 28th is what I heard last on the news. That one is the game changer in terms of mass inoculation.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What about the people travelling back and forth for work
		
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Me point is that you are not allowed to travel from one tier to another, that’s been hammered in the golf thread. And seeing as most of those filmed at the train stations were leaving london yesterday. One would suggest work was not involved and folk were going home to extended families.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Hope its right but we were told originally to be ready for it before Christmas and have been prepping the sports centre, I have reception and car parking  must find my old SSM’s stick. Knowing my luck it will be hissing down.
		
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Me too, A friend who is a Nurse is doing vaccinations at our GP Surgery, she was telling me last night that they are doing no more 1st vaccinations until Jan as they’ve ran out, the only ones they will be doing is the 2nd vaccine for those due.


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2020)




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## larmen (Dec 20, 2020)

How many more doses of Oxford have been ordered compared to Pfizer?
And are they are available earlier?


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## IainP (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was always going to happen though with the timing of the announcement, anyone living on their own was going to get out of London as soon as they could so that they could spend Xmas with someone.


The people were in Tier 3 with the belief that in a couple of days they would be able to create a bubble with family to spend a bit of time over Xmas together - all within the rules at the time. As soon as they announced that’s all been taken away from you in 8 hours what do people expect those to do ? Just stay at home on their own or get out of Tier 4 within those 8 hours so they could get some sort of Xmas with their family. Give people a couple of days so that there wasn’t a mad rush with trains full to the brim.

it appears to be a case of flying by the seat of their pants with lots of u turns and flip flopping and a lot of people are losing faith quickly
		
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Different continent, same issue?
-----
The cases were found in the city's Northern Beaches area, which entered a five-day lockdown on Saturday.
Since then Sydney residents have rushed to leave the city ahead of Christmas.
Thousands have travelled from the city in New South Wales (NSW) to the neighbouring state of Victoria. In response, Victoria will close its borders to residents of Greater Sydney and the NSW Central Coast from midnight. People will then face a 14-day quarantine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55378180


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2020)

larmen said:



			How many more doses of Oxford have been ordered compared to Pfizer?
And are they are available earlier?
		
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I've read 40m of Pfizer and 100m of the oxford one, each person needing 2 doses. I don't know how many oxford ones are ready but hopefully lots.

The big winner for the oxford one is the lack if funky conditions needed to store it. They can set up emergency jab centres in big car parks and rapid fire people through.


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## larmen (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've read 40m of Pfizer and 100m of the oxford one, each person needing 2 doses. I don't know how many oxford ones are ready but hopefully lots.

The big winner for the oxford one is the lack if funky conditions needed to store it. They can set up emergency jab centres in big car parks and rapid fire people through.
		
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Cheers!

I say teach the posties to do it! They get it done in one morning. ;-)
(Don’t use Hermes)


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2020)

There was an interesting report a week or so ago about the company manufacturing the oxford vaccine in India for India. They have basically gambled that it will pass and are manufacturing now. They have 50m ready and will keep going. That is some bottle by the guy in charge.


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was an interesting report a week or so ago about the company manufacturing the oxford vaccine in India for India. They have basically gambled that it will pass and are manufacturing now. They have 50m ready and will keep going. That is some bottle by the guy in charge.
		
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As I believe we have paid up front we have gambled as well


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For many it is very important , especially for mental health and well being . I know a nurse who has worked non stop and hasnt seen her family for 7 months , she was due to have Xmas off and go back home on Wednesday to spend 4 days with her family to help her just switch off - do you expect her to now sit in on her own over Xmas ? And the same with many others in that situation, people that have followed to rules to the letter in the hope of being with family for a couple of days - are you ok to tell them it doesn’t matter. I guess you have family to spend time with over Xmas so have zero concept of what it means to others



Was that the same when everyone was encouraged to get out and eat out and spend in shops and pub and restaurants, was that in their minds when they started to get people all mixed in together or when they allowed big shops to open up and markets and cinemas. They allow indoor places of worship yet someone can’t go to their family for a day. 

The effect on people’s mental well being could end up being more dramatic 

The minute they said that people could no longer create a bubble people in Tier 4 those people with plans already they were immediately going to act so they could have some sort of normality over a very emotionally straining period.
		
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It can be extremely hard for people living on their own who have been waiting to see family in other parts of the country, especially if they have disabilities and have been isolated for some time.

I think it's possible for people on their own to be in a support bubble with others, especially if they are vunrable.  I'm not sure how travel restrictions would affect them on tier four though. Say someone on their own in London was in a bubble with family in Devon, could they not travel or be collected.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 20, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			As I believe we have paid up front we have gambled as well
		
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Don’t think it works that way, think I read earlier in the thread you only pay if it gets approved.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 20, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There was an interesting report a week or so ago about the company manufacturing the oxford vaccine in India for India. They have basically gambled that it will pass and are manufacturing now. They have 50m ready and will keep going. That is some bottle by the guy in charge.
		
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I think pretty much all of the potential vaccines are being produced in large quantities already so that if/when they get approval there are a lot of doses ready to go. I'm pretty sure that I read that on the BBC news website. Maybe @Ethan will have more info on this.


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## Kellfire (Dec 20, 2020)

The support bubble allowances are the only thing stopping me spending Christmas alone and depressed. I will travel a short distance to stay with my brother and his partner on Christmas Day. I am so thankful to have this allowance as I don’t know how I’d cope this year without that allowance after the worst year of my life. 

I feel deeply sorry for everyone affected by the latest announcement and I understand the rush to get out of London and the southeast last night even if I can’t bring myself to openly condone it.


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## User62651 (Dec 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The support bubble allowances are the only thing stopping me spending Christmas alone and depressed. I will travel a short distance to stay with my brother and his partner on Christmas Day. I am so thankful to have this allowance as I don’t know how I’d cope this year without that allowance after the worst year of my life.

I feel deeply sorry for everyone affected by the latest announcement and I understand the rush to get out of London and the southeast last night even if I can’t bring myself to openly condone it.
		
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Good to hear you have somewhere to go.
Getting like a twisted take on 'Planes Trains and Automobiles' for so many working people trying to get to family for Christmas as travel options disappear and criticism increases. Easy to be critical for those less affected too.
Quite a moral dilemma for a lot of good people. It is irresponsible to travel now but it was understandable panic yesterday. Let all the MPs travel back then announce it 11th hr to public is pretty awful imo.

After some recent reprieve with the vaccines seems we have taken 2 steps back. Sad.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 20, 2020)

As we now appear to be approaching lockdown 3, when is it time to admit defeat, that we can't control this? There comes a point when the collateral damage is worse than what the virus itself. The economy is on its knees, people are being denied basic healthcare, mental health is at an all time low. We have to be close to the point we say lets just get on with it.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			It is time to admit defeat but not in the way you suggest, which is lunacy.

We to stop kidding ourselves that controlling the virus and saving the economy is a trade off. The latter cannot be achieved without the former. It's time to take the hint from the increasing list of countries that are banning travel to/from the UK and close the borders and lock down properly. Do what we should have done nine months ago.
		
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Which will likely completely finish the economy,  kill many more thousands from other ailments and push many many more to the brink of suicide. Yes we should have done it properly 9 months ago, now is too late.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 20, 2020)

I didnt say abandon all attempts,  we can all do our bit with the distancing, wearing masks etc. But lockdown 1 didnt work, lockdown 2 didnt work. Lockdown 3 wont work. You could argue the government weren't hard enough early on and i would agree, you only have to look at this forum to see how people try to get around rules. But look at other countries that locked down far harder than we did, its running out of control there again as well. It might be time to admit this one has us beaten until everyone can be vaccinated


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm regularly pretty annoyed by the people constantly and openly breaking the rules, but I mean this most genuinely when I say that really someone in your situation just needs to quietly do what they need to do after what you've been through.

Whatever the official rules are in place, I'd personally give you a pass, so I hope you have as good a time as you can under the circumstances. 🙂
		
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He's cool his brother is his support bubble and you can travel any distance in tier 1-4 to see you support bubble. Stay over. It's fine and above board 

We are in that boat with kids under 1 her parents are our other household


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I didnt say abandon all attempts,  we can all do our bit with the distancing, wearing masks etc. But lockdown 1 didnt work, lockdown 2 didnt work. Lockdown 3 wont work. You could argue the government weren't hard enough early on and i would agree, you only have to look at this forum to see how people try to get around rules. But look at other countries that locked down far harder than we did, its running out of control there again as well. It might be time to admit this one has us beaten until everyone can be vaccinated 

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The lockdowns did seem to work though, infections dropped quite a bit in England during the recent one but jumped again as soon as it was eased.  Putting on the old glasses of retrospect we should have kept it on longer.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2020)

Mother in law quite poorly at the moment so wandered to Sainsbury's for some medication. Number of people I saw nonchalantly wandering in with no masks and call me a cynic but none had the sunflower lanyard and struck me as immune. People are simply sick and and tired of Covid and the only way we have any chance of controlling this is to do what the other parts of the UK are doing and be ruthless and shut England down as a nation. These tiers and who can do what gives people a chance to bend the rules too easily. I still think, and the new quicker transmitting strain may be the perfect excuse, that we could face a total lockdown in January (when people don't usually have much money or go out too much) perhaps into February. 

Yes that will be tough and this forum has highlighted from a relatively small number how prevalent mental health has been affected and you can argue the pros and cons regarding the economy but until the infection rate drops and the new strain is checked, the vaccination programme is ramped up what choice is there?


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For many it is very important , especially for mental health and well being . I know a nurse who has worked non stop and hasnt seen her family for 7 months , she was due to have Xmas off and go back home on Wednesday to spend 4 days with her family to help her just switch off - do you expect her to now sit in on her own over Xmas ? And the same with many others in that situation, people that have followed to rules to the letter in the hope of being with family for a couple of days - are you ok to tell them it doesn’t matter. I guess you have family to spend time with over Xmas so have zero concept of what it means to others



Was that the same when everyone was encouraged to get out and eat out and spend in shops and pub and restaurants, was that in their minds when they started to get people all mixed in together or when they allowed big shops to open up and markets and cinemas. They allow indoor places of worship yet someone can’t go to their family for a day. 

The effect on people’s mental well being could end up being more dramatic 

The minute they said that people could no longer create a bubble people in Tier 4 those people with plans already they were immediately going to act so they could have some sort of normality over a very emotionally straining period.
		
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You are out of order assuming that I have no family that I would  otherwise see, and that I have zero concept etc. And you are wrong.
I also have read that under tier 4 ,households cannot mix but support bubbles are exempt. , It says you cannot now form a Xmas support bubble, so it must be considered that almost anyone now in tier4 could be at very high chance of being unknowingly infected.
If you had been living alone ( originally intending to see someone for Xmas) would you now go to see them risking giving them the virus?
Because that is what you are advocating .


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 20, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are out of order assuming that I have no family that I would  otherwise see, and that I have zero concept etc. And you are wrong.
I also have read that under tier 4 ,households cannot mix but support bubbles are exempt. , It says you cannot now form a Xmas support bubble, so it must be considered that almost anyone now in tier4 could be at very high chance of being unknowingly infected.
If you had been living alone ( originally intending to see someone for Xmas) would you now go to see them risking giving them the virus?
Because that is what you are advocating .
		
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When someone dismisses spending time with family over Xmas as not important then I believe I can make an educated guess 

And I’m certainly advocating the action that if someone is on their own within any tier and believes they will struggle during the holiday period and want to be with their family after a hard , emotionally and mentally tiring period -for them to go be with their parents/family - being alone and struggling mentally during Xmas is as dangerous as any virus and I would expect anyone to understand the need for some to be with family. If that means breaking the tier guidelines then so be it. 

I certainly hope my friends goes and spend Xmas with her family


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When someone dismisses spending time with family over Xmas as not important then I believe I can make an educated guess

And I’m certainly advocating the action that if someone is on their own within any tier and believes they will struggle during the holiday period and want to be with their family after a hard , emotionally and mentally tiring period -for them to go be with their parents/family - being alone and struggling mentally during Xmas is as dangerous as any virus and I would expect anyone to understand the need for some to be with family. If that means breaking the tier guidelines then so be it.

I certainly hope my friends goes and spend Xmas with her family
		
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Breaking the rules. Sorry but if everybody continues to carry on with this mentality when does the madness stop. It is tough. I've seen it first hand with overseas nurses and doctors that haven't been home to see family in nearly a year and won't be going this Christmas. Some of these are in nurses accommodation and so will be on their own at Christmas and so have decided to work over the festive period so those with family can get the time off. They could potentially have broken the rules and travelled or formed inappropriate bubbles but stuck by the rules. I get the issue over mental health but the bottom line is unless we start taking this seriously and abide by the rules then loneliness and lockdown will run and run.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When someone dismisses spending time with family over Xmas as not important then I believe I can make an educated guess

And I’m certainly advocating the action that if someone is on their own within any tier and believes they will struggle during the holiday period and want to be with their family after a hard , emotionally and mentally tiring period -for them to go be with their parents/family - being alone and struggling mentally during Xmas is as dangerous as any virus and I would expect anyone to understand the need for some to be with family. If that means breaking the tier guidelines then so be it.

I certainly hope my friends goes and spend Xmas with her family
		
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But not so sympathetic to those who would have found the same relief from playing golf when that was banned.


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## Kellfire (Dec 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm regularly pretty annoyed by the people constantly and openly breaking the rules, but I mean this most genuinely when I say that really someone in your situation just needs to quietly do what they need to do after what you've been through.

Whatever the official rules are in place, I'd personally give you a pass, so I hope you have as good a time as you can under the circumstances. 🙂
		
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Cheers man. I’m playing it by the rules, because I work for the NHS and I believe in practice what I preach but I still get why people aren’t being strict.


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## Billysboots (Dec 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Cheers man. I’m playing it by the rules, because I work for the NHS and I believe in practice what I preach but I still get why people aren’t being strict.
		
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I wish you’d have a word with my sister in law, an NHS district nurse, who seems oblivious to the rules or the threat posed by the virus. She’s quite happy to receive visitors at home, and was quite willing to have my family and her parents visit on Boxing Day, in full knowledge of the fact her parents were spending Christmas Day with two other families. I told my wife, before the changes yesterday, that if she went on Boxing Day she’d be going on her own.

Yep, my sister in law is quite happy to flout the rules. But she’s also been happy enough to have the vaccine. A classic “sod you lot, I’m alright” approach if ever I saw one.


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Or we could accept that there are others with different opinions and ideas other than our own. Something sounding mad to one sounds totally sensible to another.
Don't forget Barnes-Wallace was thought mad at the initial outset.
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			I think pretty much all of the potential vaccines are being produced in large quantities already so that if/when they get approval there are a lot of doses ready to go. I'm pretty sure that I read that on the BBC news website. Maybe @Ethan will have more info on this.
		
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The big manufacturers all started production "at risk". AZ/Oxford a partnership with the Serum Institute of India, and once approved there, the SII will bring a locally made version to market. The more user-friendly storage requirements for the AZ vaccine make it much more suitable for India than some of the others. There are also arrangements for some other Covid treatments in India. The logistics of mass vaccination there are mind-boggling.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 20, 2020)

Lots of sanctimonious people on here today, but it highlights the issues and problems with the virus, where one person’s moral compass points is quite different to the next person.

We won’t have a total lockdown, it might get tighter, but we’ll never get a full proper one. Sadly, money has a higher value than life.

We will sadly see thousands of more deaths, which ever path is chosen.

I’m just thankful I’m not in the decision making process and damn glad some others on here aren’t either.


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## Kellfire (Dec 20, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I wish you’d have a word with my sister in law, an NHS district nurse, who seems oblivious to the rules or the threat posed by the virus. She’s quite happy to receive visitors at home, and was quite willing to have my family and her parents visit on Boxing Day, in full knowledge of the fact her parents were spending Christmas Day with two other families. I told my wife, before the changes yesterday, that if she went on Boxing Day she’d be going on her own.

Yep, my sister in law is quite happy to flout the rules. But she’s also been happy enough to have the vaccine. A classic “sod you lot, I’m alright” approach if ever I saw one.
		
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I have some faith that NHS workers by and large will be sensible when they break the rules. If that makes sense. Avoid close contact, be more hygienic etc. But I have nothing to back up that faith!


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I didnt say abandon all attempts,  we can all do our bit with the distancing, wearing masks etc. But lockdown 1 didnt work, lockdown 2 didnt work. Lockdown 3 wont work. You could argue the government weren't hard enough early on and i would agree, you only have to look at this forum to see how people try to get around rules. But look at other countries that locked down far harder than we did, its running out of control there again as well. It might be time to admit this one has us beaten until everyone can be vaccinated 

Click to expand...

The lockdowns, such as they were, did work, but they only worked as far as the relatively gentle conditions and the variable acceptance allowed them. If you think things couldn't get a great deal worse very quickly, I think you are mistaken. What was needed was a proper lock down early, and that could have fundamentally changed the course. Half arsed lockdowns only pause the pandemic and inevitably it flares up again.

Looking back at the last 9 months and predicting what the next few will look like, do people seriously not think it would have been better to have had 2 months of severe lockdown, literally house arrest, back in early March, with inbound travellers all marched off to quarantine like in Oz?

There should be enough common ground between those who are concerned for lives and those concerned about the economy to get together and agree that we will stick a knife in this wretched virus once and for all. Lock the [you know what] down until a critical mass of the population is vaccinated, and the risk starts to fall.

There is a nice piece of evidence from the Pfizer data set that shows the case numbers in the treated and control group. The case numbers in the control (untreated group) rises in a straight line with time. The case numbers in the treated group rise exactly the same for the first 10 days or so after the first shot, then the line becomes almost horizontal, meaning very few new cases are added. This basically shows that protection starts to become pretty good 10 days after the first shot. The more people we get to that point, 1st vacc + 10, the safer we become. Every effort should be made to do that, so people like me, who haven't treated a patient in a long while, have volunteered to vaccinate. I am waiting for a response from the NHS HR service to see if they want my help. These back benchers, public figures, businessmen should be clearing obstacles to achieving this like their lives and businesses depended on it. They possibly do.


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## Backache (Dec 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The lockdowns, such as they were, did work, but they only worked as far as the relatively gentle conditions and the variable acceptance allowed them. If you think things couldn't get a great deal worse very quickly, I think you are mistaken. What was needed was a proper lock down early, and that could have fundamentally changed the course. Half arsed lockdowns only pause the pandemic and inevitably it flares up again.

Looking back at the last 9 months and predicting what the next few will look like, do people seriously not think it would have been better to have had 2 months of severe lockdown, literally house arrest, back in early March, with inbound travellers all marched off to quarantine like in Oz?

There should be enough common ground between those who are concerned for lives and those concerned about the economy to get together and agree that we will stick a knife in this wretched virus once and for all. Lock the [you know what] down until a critical mass of the population is vaccinated, and the risk starts to fall.

There is a nice piece of evidence from the Pfizer data set that shows the case numbers in the treated and control group. The case numbers in the control (untreated group) rises in a straight line with time. The case numbers in the treated group rise exactly the same for the first 10 days or so after the first shot, then the line becomes almost horizontal, meaning very few new cases are added. This basically shows that protection starts to become pretty good 10 days after the first shot. The more people we get to that point, 1st vacc + 10, the safer we become. Every effort should be made to do that, so people like me, who haven't treated a patient in a long while, have volunteered to vaccinate. I am waiting for a response from the NHS HR service to see if they want my help. These back benchers, public figures, businessmen should be clearing obstacles to achievin[/g this like their lives and businesses depended on it. They possibly do.
	View attachment 34077

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I've looked at that graph a few times and I'm not sure that the difference is necessarily important till around 20 days bearing in mind that each point represents a case, tha actual cumulative number of cases begins to seperate at about 14 days but might not be significant till around 21 days, the early separation looks impressive because of the extension of the graph rather than much real difference, though with a five day incubation period between infection and symptoms and therefore diagnosis I reckon between 2 and three weeks should see you safer.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2020)

France and Ireland have now banned any lorries from entering there countries due to the new Covid strain. Bottom line they have isolated us. I totally understand. What I don’t understand is why we did not isolate ourselves as an island from the very beginning.


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2020)

Backache said:



			I've looked at that graph a few times and I'm not sure that the difference is necessarily important till around 20 days bearing in mind that each point represents a case, tha actual cumulative number of cases begins to seperate at about 14 days but might not be significant till around 21 days, the early separation looks impressive because of the extension of the graph rather than much real difference, though with a five day incubation period between infection and symptoms and therefore diagnosis I reckon between 2 and three weeks should see you safer.
		
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Sure, it probably doesn't reach statistical significance for a while longer, but when the effect kicks in, it looks like a solid response. If I had been given the vacc, I'd be feeling more relaxed after a couple of weeks.


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## Backache (Dec 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Sure, it probably doesn't reach statistical significance for a while longer, but when the effect kicks in, it looks like a solid response. If I had been given the vacc, I'd be feeling more relaxed after a couple of weeks.
		
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Hope so I'm 10 days post vacc.


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2020)

Backache said:



			Hope so I'm 10 days post vacc.
		
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Lucky you. I doubt I will get it until Spring. My wife (NHS doctor) got her first last week too.


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## Backache (Dec 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Lucky you. I doubt I will get it until Spring. My wife (NHS doctor) got her first last week too.
		
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Fingers crossed that everyone can get it soon.


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## AdamW (Dec 20, 2020)

Backache said:



			Fingers crossed that everyone can get it soon.
		
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There is an estimate calculator here:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk

July - September is mine


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## Backache (Dec 20, 2020)

AdamW said:



			There is an estimate calculator here:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk

July - September is mine 

Click to expand...

Thing is there is a huge unknown variable in the calculation which is the rate of vaccination which is not yet known. It may be a lot quicker or slower than the underlying assumption of that calculator depending on which vaccines are approved and when,


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## GB72 (Dec 20, 2020)

Every cloud has a silver lining, however faint. Now that my wife and I cannot go to her parents for Xmas we are back in the village which means we were able to invite a friend round for Xmas for who would have been on his own this year.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			France and Ireland have now banned any lorries from entering there countries due to the new Covid strain. Bottom line they have isolated us. I totally understand. What I don’t understand is why we did not isolate ourselves as an island from the very beginning.
		
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I'd like to think that is purely Covid related but the realist in me thinks that it is as much, if not more related to current negotiations than to disease prevention.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			France and Ireland have now banned any lorries from entering there countries due to the new Covid strain. Bottom line they have isolated us. I totally understand. What I don’t understand is why we did not isolate ourselves as an island from the very beginning.
		
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By all accounts this strain has been in the UK since September. If Europe thinks it isn't rife over there then they are kidding themselves. They are either keeping quiet or not testing for it. 3 months of unchecked travel? It must have spread already.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			By all accounts this strain has been in the UK since September. If Europe thinks it isn't rife over there then they are kidding themselves. They are either keeping quiet or not testing for it. 3 months of unchecked travel? It must have spread already.
		
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Can't blame them though. If we are going to go on TV and say how quick the new one spreads and how it's been past week etc you can't blame everyone from shutting borders until they can get more information

Ironically what should have happened to start with rather than wishy washy allow planes in all time


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## road2ruin (Dec 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Can't blame them though. If we are going to go on TV and say how quick the new one spreads and how it's been past week etc you can't blame everyone from shutting borders until they can get more information
		
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Agree. Cannot understand how you can announce a new strain that spreads quicker etc etc and then be surprised with other countries reactions. 

It appears to me that this was an ill thought out announcement designed to scare the population into compliance whilst giving an excuse to cancel Christmas that has now backfired spectacularly with these unintended consequences.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Can't blame them though. If we are going to go on TV and say how quick the new one spreads and how it's been past week etc you can't blame everyone from shutting borders until they can get more information

Ironically what should have happened to start with rather than wishy washy allow planes in all time
		
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I agree but  there is no way we are on our own with this. I think road2ruins post above is bang on as well.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'd like to think that is purely Covid related but the realist in me thinks that it is as much, if not more related to current negotiations than to disease prevention.
		
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It is entirely rational and precisely what any responsible Govt would do. Interesting that all these countries are able to act based on their own decisions. It is almost like they have sovereignty and control over their own laws. Oh, the irony.


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## DRW (Dec 21, 2020)

Tony Cox on Twitter: "MK LHL testing data showing increasing prevalence of H69/V70 variant in positive test data - which is detected incidentally by the commonly used 3-gene PCR test. https://t.co/1U0pVR9Bhs" / Twitter

Interesting twist at this moment in time, they need to get testing, to find out for definite what the case is.

Some great posts out their on twitter accounts/websites from people who know a lot, well worth reading them if it interests you.


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## DRW (Dec 21, 2020)

Whoops forgot toad this link :-

Laura Lopez Gonzalez on Twitter: "Patient swabs from those with the new variant seem to preliminarily show more viral load. Higher viral load may translate to a more transmissible virus, speculates Abdool Karim. So each person who has the variant may be able to transmit the virus to more people. #covid19SA https://t.co/6LZ1GmblDK" / Twitter

Be nice to see a full write up on this one. Again nothing 100% at the moment.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2020)

Once the EU borders are fully shut and so lorries etc in and out of the UK are stopped what happens to the food supply chain. Will be back to shelves stripped and panic buying by the new year


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Once the EU borders are fully shut and so lorries etc in and out of the UK are stopped what happens to the food supply chain. Will be back to shelves stripped and panic buying by the new year
		
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They need to work out logistics with the EU 

ATM we are accepting lorries in but they might refuse to come as can't get back so need to get it acceptable for food lorries to go back 

Talks about using hs1 services to run food supplies into England and then empty back to France etc


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

DRW said:



			Whoops forgot toad this link :-

Laura Lopez Gonzalez on Twitter: "Patient swabs from those with the new variant seem to preliminarily show more viral load. Higher viral load may translate to a more transmissible virus, speculates Abdool Karim. So each person who has the variant may be able to transmit the virus to more people. #covid19SA https://t.co/6LZ1GmblDK" / Twitter

Be nice to see a full write up on this one. Again nothing 100% at the moment.
		
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Viral load is one possible explanation for greater transmissibility. There is also some discussion that the new strain attaches more avidly to ACE-2 receptors which are responsible for initial entry to the body. Both effects may occur at the same time. 

Either way, greater transmissibility will obviously cause this strain to dominate. London and the SE today, the rest of the the country soon enough.


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## Slab (Dec 21, 2020)

larmen said:



			The world is too mobile for this to keep contained. Britain is an island and had peak conditions to exclude it, but once you let the 1st boat or plane in ...
I can’t remember who it was, but someone on this forum lives on a warm island that went for full lockdown and they kept it very much out.
And if they never ever want a tourist then they could keep it out.

I think it was always about buying time for a vaccine, we are nearly there now. That’s my hope, at least.
		
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Didn't manage to keep it out here in Mauritius with 500 cases and 10 deaths; but you're right the ability for it to spread was cut off with a strong medical curfew that was put in place very quickly
At the time it was pretty brutal and i remember reading posts on here and other articles most days that _seemed like_ it was being treated in the uk like a long summer holiday at home (not in anyway to belittle the efforts from those that self-imposed a stricter lockdown on themselves, lost jobs or work in key sectors)

it took just 40 days to stop the spread, identify every person infected and get cases down to zero, then another month of continued curfew 'just to be sure there was no more and prepare for our 'release' 
But in those days there was no leaving home without a permit, no food shopping unless it was your designated one per household alphabetised allocated day, no large scale online shopping services to help, no outdoor exercise, no dog walking, no travel to work outside essential services personnel... just stay indoors 24 hours a day & call if you get sick

Mask use is well down on its peak period but still a daily thing even now and certainly a 'self-exemption' from wearing one would not be tolerated here, a mask was required as soon as you left home. 
Just yesterday when I went to the shops the door security guard refused access to one of the family behind me for not wearing a mask... with zero covid cases in the community! No fuss, just told, no entry, go away

But we do desperately need tourists to return, the island is ready, the weather is great, the people are covid free... but as it stands any flights coming in from anywhere will undoubtedly bring it back


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Agree. Cannot understand how you can announce a new strain that spreads quicker etc etc and then be surprised with other countries reactions. 

It appears to me that this was an ill thought out announcement designed to scare the population into compliance whilst giving an excuse to cancel Christmas that has now backfired spectacularly with these unintended consequences.
		
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Do you think it was so much the "announcement" , or more the report to WHO ,which is certainly a moral requirement, maybe even a legal one.?

So WHO informs the rest of the world, officially, and so they are acting as they are.
The absence of the announcements  you are saying were ill thought out would not have changed nor prevented these actions., I think.

And then when these countries acted as they have, Hancock gets hammered for not telling us, the population🤔


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is entirely rational and precisely what any responsible Govt would do. Interesting that all these countries are able to act based on their own decisions. It is almost like they have sovereignty and control over their own laws. Oh, the irony.
		
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Then why not put it in for a month like Bulgaria has, rather than 48 hours; a month's ban could always be lifted or modified later if the information changes; in real terms, what difference will 48 hours make to preventing the spread?  A 48 hour ban at this point smacks of something other than a rational decision based purely on preventing the spread of the disease.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 21, 2020)

On a positive note, one of me Bessie pals in Italy had a video call with his wife yesterday, he had been placed in a coma, tracheostomy etc etc and his wife was told to prepare herself for the worst at one stage. All of a sudden this is one of me best Christmas pressies ever.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Then why not put it in for a month like Bulgaria has, rather than 48 hours; a month's ban could always be lifted or modified later if the information changes; in real terms, what difference will 48 hours make to preventing the spread?  A 48 hour ban at this point smacks of something other than a rational decision based purely on preventing the spread of the disease.
		
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They are considering the data, just like Johnson said NERVTAG and SAGE did, and presumably will announce further measures. I would be surprised if they did not extend them indefinitely. The fact they made it short should be welcomed as being flexible and appropriate, especially with you-know-what looming.


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## Old Skier (Dec 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'd like to think that is purely Covid related but the realist in me thinks that it is as much, if not more related to current negotiations than to disease prevention.
		
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Yep, Holland and Belgium have identified the same strain and —— there borders remain open into France. Very strange.


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## Old Skier (Dec 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is entirely rational and precisely what any responsible Govt would do. Interesting that all these countries are able to act based on their own decisions. It is almost like they have sovereignty and control over their own laws. Oh, the irony.
		
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So why hasn’t France banned movement from Holland and Belgium.


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## Old Skier (Dec 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Once the EU borders are fully shut and so lorries etc in and out of the UK are stopped what happens to the food supply chain. Will be back to shelves stripped and panic buying by the new year
		
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Over 60% of the RoRo comes across via container and are picked up by drivers both sides of the channel and are still being carried across the channel.


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yep, Holland and Belgium have identified the same strain and —— there borders remain open into France. Very strange.
		
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Not strange at all... the above assumptions are correct!   I also didn't hear that on the news this morning. You could be forgiven for thinking it is only the UK that has any restrictions in place. 

Interestingly, (sticking to numbers, not political comment.)

26% of uk food is imported from the EU. (2019) (wish I could find the value)

Can't find % figures for food exports in opposite direction, but UK food and drink exports were worth £5.7bn in the *first quarter* of 2019.    

You may or may not get that impression from the media....


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			So why hasn’t France banned movement from Holland and Belgium.
		
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Because Holland and Belgium don't have this new more transmissible strain in the same quantities, presumably.

Edit: The Netherlands has identified one case.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Xmas? 

Click to expand...

That too.


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## Old Skier (Dec 21, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Because Holland and Belgium don't have this new more transmissible strain in the same quantities, presumably.

Edit: The Netherlands has identified one case.
		
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Good to know you have the inside informatio, the rest of us can only go by reports but no figures, hope this isn’t the BBC scaremongering  

while Denmark, Italy and the Netherlands announced they had already detected it.

Great that Holland are that effective that they can pick out just the one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2020)

MiL and BiL have accepted and are OK that we can't be with them for Christmas...

My son is less happy that we have can't have him visiting us in the next day or two - even very briefly.   In fact he is very upset.  He wasn't going to be with us for Christmas but was hoping to have a day or two home with us (sleeping outdoors in out garden studio) in our three household bubble as his life in Sheffield is miserable and very difficult.   He despises the government and doesn't trust a word they say so why - he says - should he follow their rules.  But we have simply told him that because he is in a Tier4 area - and whether we like the government or not -  that we as a family have a responsibility to ourselves and to others to minimise the risk of transmission between us as individuals and between our respective areas of the country.

This has been a very difficult and upsetting message for my wife to put to him as we know that his life is currently very difficult and that he has suffered mentally quite badly over the last few months - and that a day or two with us would be very good for him - but we are just trying to follow the rules.  Because if we don't follow them to the letter then we lose the right to be critical of anyone else doing their own rule-bending.

That said - and as is said in other contexts - we cannot change the way others choose to think and act - but we can keep our own side of the street clean.

I will not comment myself on what I think of those leading us...I have watched for over a week without commenting on any matter and will continue to maintain that disdainful silence (oops - I might have just commented...)


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## Papas1982 (Dec 21, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			They need to work out logistics with the EU

ATM we are accepting lorries in but they might refuse to come as can't get back so need to get it acceptable for food lorries to go back

Talks about using hs1 services to run food supplies into England and then empty back to France etc
		
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Tbf with the tail backs already in Kent prior to the announcement Due to road closures in Calais, The 48 hour ban on trucks Going back to France isn’t really a problem for any trucks that do import. They’re gonna be waiting a while to get back!


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Good to know you have the inside informatio, the rest of us can only go by reports but no figures, hope this isn’t the BBC scaremongering 

while Denmark, Italy and the Netherlands announced they had already detected it.

Great that Holland are that effective that they can pick out just the one.
		
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It was reported in the media that there was one case in NL. With a new strain of high transmissibility, acting fast is the right thing to do. It is likely that it is around more countries, but they need internal actions to deal with those cases. No point in letting more in to make matters worse. This is precisely what the UK should have done, but failed to do, at the very start of the pandemic.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 21, 2020)

Is your son not in Sheffield? If he is then I didn't think that is Tier 4.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Media article with some details about the new strain


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 21, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Tbf with the tail backs already in Kent prior to the announcement Due to road closures in Calais, The 48 hour ban on trucks Going back to France isn’t really a problem for any trucks that do import. They’re gonna be waiting a while to get back!
		
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Got to feel for the poor HGV drivers stuck in the middle of all of this, must be a horrible situation to be in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Is your son not in Sheffield? If he is then I didn't think that is Tier 4.
		
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You are right - I have assumed that Sheffield was Tier 4 - but even in Tier 3 you still shouldn't travel unless essential - and as much as our lad could really do with time with us we do not consider that as being essential travel.   Further - where we live is Tier2 but we live 2 miles from the boundary of a Tier4 area - so we take the view that we might as well be in Tier 4 in respect of risk.

So with him in Tier 3 area I guess we could stretch our definition of 'essential' - but pushing or just stepping over the boundaries of the rules is just not how we are choosing to play this terrible 'game'.

But I will add...this is very difficult - as we know how much he needs a break from his Sheffield life...and as much as we don't look to push the boundaries of the rules - we are faced with a difficult decision given how upset my wife is over his circumstances and telling him he can't visit us.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Got to feel for the poor HGV drivers stuck in the middle of all of this, must be a horrible situation to be in.
		
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This with knobs on. Drivers from all over simply looking to do their jobs and get home. I hope they are not forgotten in all of this and are being looked after.


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## hovis (Dec 21, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Got to feel for the poor HGV drivers stuck in the middle of all of this, must be a horrible situation to be in.
		
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Sat in a truck on your own with a bed, heated cab, tv and junk food.    No kids, wife or Xmas shopping!!!!! Where do I apply 😁


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## Old Skier (Dec 21, 2020)

@Ethan on vaccination, as across the world a huge number of people are going to be vaccinated wouldn’t it be quicker and easier to have the delivery method an EpiPen or is it likely cost being an issue bearing in mind the cost of professional vaccinators comes out of the equation.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 21, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Got to feel for the poor HGV drivers stuck in the middle of all of this, must be a horrible situation to be in.
		
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I think the news has been a relief for some. The queues in Dover have actually eased as they’ve just driven off and parked up somewhere for 2 days. There were queues 10 miles back through dover and towards Canterbury prior the the news.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2020)

Played yesterday and without realising it I travelled from a Tier 2 area where we live all of 3 miles to my club in a Tier 4 area.  I had no idea that the club was in a Tier 4 area - indeed I didn't realise that Guildford District started 2 miles from my front door in Waverley.  I am thinking that I shouldn't have done that.  I note that the clubhouse was closed and we had returned to 2-balls only - but I'm thinking that I shouldn't have travelled to the club at all.


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## larmen (Dec 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Played yesterday and without realising it I travelled from a Tier 2 area where we live all of 3 miles to my club in a Tier 4 area.  I had no idea that the club was in a Tier 4 area - indeed I didn't realise that Guildford District started 2 miles from my front door in Waverley.
		
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I guess we are all learning a lot more about council boarders than we ever needed or wanted to know.
My club lies in a council I have never heard of before. When London and Slough both were proposed to move into tier 3 last week I found out that between there is a place called Spelthorpe, and they stayed in tier 2. So had a lesson just the night before tier changes. But now everything is tier 4 I have more ranges to pick from again.


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## GB72 (Dec 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Played yesterday and without realising it I travelled from a Tier 2 area where we live all of 3 miles to my club in a Tier 4 area.  I had no idea that the club was in a Tier 4 area - indeed I didn't realise that Guildford District started 2 miles from my front door in Waverley.  I am thinking that I shouldn't have done that.  I note that the clubhouse was closed and we had returned to 2-balls only - but I'm thinking that I shouldn't have travelled to the club at all.
		
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No I think that your club it out of bounds for the time being. Should not be going in or out of tier 4 by my understanding. 

We had a similar issue. My mother in law is on the Hampshire/Berkshire boarder and may be as little as a few hundred yards from being in tier 4. We opted not to go there for that very reason.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			No I think that your club it out of bounds for the time being. Should not be going in or out of tier 4 by my understanding.

We had a similar issue. My mother in law is on the Hampshire/Berkshire boarder and may be as little as a few hundred yards from being in tier 4. We opted not to go there for that very reason.
		
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What I have only in the last 15minutes realised.  I think the club should have advised us very explicitly of that.  Very many members will have travelled to the club yesterday without realising that it was in a Tier 4 area or that they shouldn't be travelling to it.  To be fair the club did say that even although it is right on the border of Waverley - it was in fact in a Tier 4 area - but I didn't twig that that meant that I couldn't play yesterday.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What I have only in the last 15minutes realised.  I think the club should have advised us very explicitly of that.  Very many members will have travelled to the club yesterday without realising that it was in a Tier 4 area or that they shouldn't be travelling to it.  To be fair the club did say that even although it is right on the border of Waverley - it was in fact in a Tier 4 area - but I didn't twig that that meant that I couldn't play yesterday.
		
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We are very lucky that we are nowhere near tier 4 border (smack bang in it) white dot 




But I can imagine there will be many  people caught out by this 

But then those in tier 3 have the option to go elsewhere for the time being 

No ideal but rules are rules


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@Ethan on vaccination, as across the world a huge number of people are going to be vaccinated wouldn’t it be quicker and easier to have the delivery method an EpiPen or is it likely cost being an issue bearing in mind the cost of professional vaccinators comes out of the equation.
		
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A device would help with speed to some degree, although it is quite common for people to deliver stuff into the wrong tissue (fat, sub-cutaneous) and the device would be more expensive and require separate regulatory approval.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 21, 2020)

Old Skier said:



@Ethan on vaccination, as across the world a huge number of people are going to be vaccinated wouldn’t it be quicker and easier to have the delivery method an EpiPen or is it likely cost being an issue bearing in mind the cost of professional vaccinators comes out of the equation.
		
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You seem to be suggesting self-vaccination; given the inability of no small percentage of the population to cope with a mask, would you trust them with an Epi-pen?


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## Old Skier (Dec 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			You seem to be suggesting self-vaccination; given the inability of no small percentage of the population to cope with a mask, would you trust them with an Epi-pen? 

Click to expand...

Wouldn’t surprise me if most of them and the poor soles “unable to wear a mask”  already use them.


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## NearHull (Dec 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Once the EU borders are fully shut and so lorries etc in and out of the UK are stopped what happens to the food supply chain. Will be back to shelves stripped and panic buying by the new year
		
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My daughter was due to do her weekly shop today.  She turned back when she saw the very large queues outside the Supermarket.  Panic has started.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Played yesterday and without realising it I travelled from a Tier 2 area where we live all of 3 miles to my club in a Tier 4 area.  I had no idea that the club was in a Tier 4 area - indeed I didn't realise that Guildford District started 2 miles from my front door in Waverley.  I am thinking that I shouldn't have done that.  I note that the clubhouse was closed and we had returned to 2-balls only - but I'm thinking that I shouldn't have travelled to the club at all.
		
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Shortest route to hospital for me is 9 miles where I drive in and out of the neighbouring LA for about 500 yards
Other [legal] route is 12 miles.
In an emergency I know what route I shall take.

Newmarket must be a nightmare with those rules apply, you continually criss/cross the Suffolk/Cambridge borders on most routes in and out.


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2020)

NearHull said:



			My daughter was due to do her weekly shop today.  She turned back when she saw the very large queues outside the Supermarket.  Panic has started.
		
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Really? Do you not think that might just be because it’s Christmas week and the ongoing need to maintain social distancing inside means there are queues outside?

There was a queue on Saturday morning outside both of my local supermarkets BEFORE the PM’s announcement, quite simply because they were busier on the last Saturday before Christmas.

It’s not panic buying, but quickly will become just that with irresponsible journalism.


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## GB72 (Dec 21, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Really? Do you not think that might just be because it’s Christmas week and the ongoing need to maintain social distancing inside means there are queues outside?

There was a queue on Saturday morning outside both of my local supermarkets BEFORE the PM’s announcement, quite simply because they were busier on the last Saturday before Christmas.

It’s not panic buying, but quickly will become just that with irresponsible journalism.
		
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Have to agree, not necessarily panic buying. Going to be a lot of people who expected to be away for the 5 days over Xmas who now need to stock up as well as the normal shop and a bit extra just because some people are at home for the next 2 weeks. Supermarkets are always busy the week before Xmas so the queues are a good sign that they are keeping the numbers down inside and not cramming them all in like normal.


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2020)

My wife went into Chepstow this morning for final pre Xmas food shop... was pretty quiet, in and back in no time.

Supermarkets are always packed in the week before Christmas... but I wonder how the BBC will report it this evening??


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## larmen (Dec 21, 2020)

With all these people on trains up north I hope London supermarkets will be empty
(of people, not on the shelves)


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## bobmac (Dec 21, 2020)

News on the vaccine rollout including the Oxford vaccine


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 21, 2020)

As if things could not get any worse £ now equal value to Euro.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As if things could not get any worse £ now equal value to Euro.
		
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It is not bad news if you export. Anyway, temporary blip. The markets do love a brief panic. Normal service will be resumed within a day or two.


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## larmen (Dec 21, 2020)

EU has now signed off on the Pfizer vaccine as well. Should give done more confidence to people think that the UK/US licenses were rushed.


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## road2ruin (Dec 21, 2020)

GB72 said:



			Have to agree, not necessarily panic buying. Going to be a lot of people who expected to be away for the 5 days over Xmas who now need to stock up as well as the normal shop and a bit extra just because some people are at home for the next 2 weeks. Supermarkets are always busy the week before Xmas so the queues are a good sign that they are keeping the numbers down inside and not cramming them all in like normal.
		
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I think this is exactly it for the majority. There are a huge number of people (myself included) who were looking forward to a Christmas of being fed and watered. Then, announcement made and I was off into the wilds of Surrey to track down the full Christmas menu which I wouldn’t have been doing otherwise. 

Looking at my trolley (and those around me) it may well have looked like panic buying however the reality was it was going from needing no provisions to the full works.


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## Slab (Dec 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Shortest route to hospital for me is 9 miles where I drive in and out of the neighbouring LA for about 500 yards
Other [legal] route is 12 miles.
In an emergency I know what route I shall take.

Newmarket must be a nightmare with those rules apply, you continually criss/cross the Suffolk/Cambridge borders on most routes in and out.
		
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In the case of a genuine "emergency" are you really prohibited from using the shorter route?


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## larmen (Dec 21, 2020)

Similar to when we went from little shops twice a week to a big weekly shop, and we all did it at the same time back in March.
Back then they released the stats that only 4% was hoarding, but it looked like a lot more than that.


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## fundy (Dec 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			As if things could not get any worse £ now equal value to Euro.
		
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still an exchange rate of 1.1 on my screen, where do you get equal?


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## DanFST (Dec 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			still an exchange rate of 1.1 on my screen, where do you get equal?
		
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He doesn't, but we all already knew that.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			You seem to be suggesting self-vaccination; given the inability of no small percentage of the population to cope with a mask, would you trust them with an Epi-pen? 

Click to expand...

I read it more as speeding up throughput at a vacc centre, with stuff already drawn up, needle on and ready to fire. There are a variety of auto injectors which are used by people who need injections for conditions like MS and who often have dexterity issues. They are designed to be somewhat foolproof. You place the end of the device over the target, press a button and the auto injector fires the needle and administers the medicine.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2020)

larmen said:



			EU has now signed off on the Pfizer vaccine as well. Should give done more confidence to people think that the UK/US licenses were rushed.
		
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Well, the UK one was rushed for [prohibited in the forum] purposes. The EMA had reached more or les the same conclusion at the same time but chose to go through their process slightly more slowly in order not to feed the perception of undue haste. The real differences, if any, in the rate of vaccine rollout between different European countries will be down to infrastructure and how much vaccine they can get. Germany has good systems, some other places less so. The EU have secured quite a bit of vaccine, including BioNTech/Pfizer, Oxford and Moderna and a few of the others that haven't yet made the headlines but should be around by late spring.


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 21, 2020)

larmen said:



			Similar to when we went from little shops twice a week to a big weekly shop, and we all did it at the same time back in March.
Back then they released the stats that only 4% was hoarding, but it looked like a lot more than that.
		
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As a kid we shopped 3 times a week for basics, everything was fresh because only the rich folk had fridges and nobody had freezers.


Glad I stockpiled on the stuff I was advised to, probably come in useful now.
This was bound to happen even before covid,
Anyone fancy some very cheap lobster. Straight off the back of a lorry I'm told


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 21, 2020)

Our vaccine centre has been announced and will start from first week in January- believe 600 plus will be announced. 

Gives some sort of shining light ahead - hard to feel like there is some end in sight but seen the promise that Easter will be normal


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## Old Skier (Dec 21, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Our vaccine centre has been announced and will start from first week in January- believe 600 plus will be announced.

Gives some sort of shining light ahead - hard to feel like there is some end in sight but seen the promise that Easter will be normal
		
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Will rely on the Oxford vaccine, now not due for clearance before 28-29 Dec.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2020)

Went to pick up a prescription for the M-I-L. Wasn't too bad in the supermarket but some aisles including pasta, rice and yep toilet rolls were noticeably short of supplies which I would suggest is a degree of panic buying especially with Sainsburys saying there could be "gaps" within days https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55393076


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## Tashyboy (Dec 21, 2020)

Throughout all of this we still.have a British sense of humour


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## fundy (Dec 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Went to pick up a prescription for the M-I-L. Wasn't too bad in the supermarket but some aisles including pasta, rice and yep toilet rolls were noticeably short of supplies which I would suggest is a degree of panic buying especially with Sainsburys saying there could be "gaps" within days https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55393076

Click to expand...


pasta, rice and toilet rolls, those well known fresh foods lol


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 21, 2020)

fundy said:



			pasta, rice and toilet rolls, those well known fresh foods lol
		
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I know but people see these news items and statements from Sainsbury and simply grab what they can to stockpile. Not sure looking at the waistlines too many know what fresh foods (particularly fruit and veg) are


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I know but people see these news items and statements from Sainsbury and simply grab what they can to stockpile. Not sure looking at the waistlines too many know what fresh foods (particularly fruit and veg) are
		
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The online version of my local paper ran an article today saying there was absolutely no need for panic buying. That’s all well and good, but beneath the headline was a picture of supermarket shelves stripped bare, no doubt taken back in March.

Given a picture speaks a thousand words, this must qualify as one of the most irresponsible pieces of journalism I’ve seen all year, and there’s been some pretty stiff competition.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Shortest route to hospital for me is 9 miles where I drive in and out of the neighbouring LA for about 500 yards
Other [legal] route is 12 miles.
In an emergency I know what route I shall take.

Newmarket must be a nightmare with those rules apply, you continually criss/cross the Suffolk/Cambridge borders on most routes in and out.
		
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 In both England and Scotland  the rules allow you to cross "district" borders.   I think in Scotland its "don't  without a reasonable excuse" -  and going to hospital must surely be a reasonable excuse? In England going out of tier 4 is expressly permitted when going to hospital (and some few other reasons)


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## User62651 (Dec 22, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			In both England and Scotland  the rules allow you to cross "district" borders.   I think in Scotland its "don't  without a reasonable excuse" -  and going to hospital must surely be a reasonable excuse? In England going out of tier 4 is expressly permitted when going to hospital (and some few other reasons)
		
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I thought up here in tiers 3 or 4 you can't go to tiers 2 or 1. However moving between tiers 1 to 2 or 2 to 1 is ok?
I'm in 2 going to 1 today to meet my sister in law for a walk and exchange a big bag of family gifts (outside) since the planned 3 household 5 day xmas meet up window got cancelled the other day. Our lockdown doesn't start until 26th.
Is that wrong?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2020)

My lad has decided that he'll not travel from Sheffield to us in Surrey tomorrow as he was planning to do - despite him really needing to spend some time with us and away from his circumstances in Sheffield.  Instead tomorrow we'll meet up at a half-way house motorway services to have a bite to eat together if we can (sitting outside) and to give him his presents and Christmas lunch (we've bought him and his g/f a prepared full Christmas lunch).  He and we are upset that we can't spend more time together - he has had such a terrible year - but we accept that that is how things must be.

And good to see that my wife's hospital trust looking ahead to possible difficulties to come in the near future - she's getting the first dose vaccination tomorrow - second dose 20th Jan.   Though she's now only on the hospital nursing bank - doing occasional work in a team who are not on the covid front line (though maybe everyone who works in a hospital is on the 'front line'...) it is the case that in extremis members of that team will be pulled onto the front line (as they were in April) - and so they are just making sure my Mrs is vaccinated - just in case.

Rather than wait and see what trajectory infections take after Christmas before activating risk mitigation and contingency plans - the trust are being proactive.

And so a couple of things to be grateful for in these difficult days.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2020)

Whatever has happened in Sweden...does this knock the whole herd immunity approach on the head - were the supporters of the Swedish approach guilty of extolling virtues when what we were seeing was simply a false dawn...with storm clouds always just out of sight over the horizon (apologies for mixed metaphors etc) 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...soars-ever-higher-sweden-wonders-who-to-blame


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 22, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever has happened in Sweden...does this knock the whole herd immunity approach on the head - were the supporters of the Swedish approach guilty of extolling virtues when what we were seeing was simply a false dawn...with storm clouds always just out of sight over the horizon (apologies for mixed metaphors etc)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...soars-ever-higher-sweden-wonders-who-to-blame

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Has the approach worked better in the UK, Italy, Spain, France etc? Swedes managed to live their lives in relative normality, their businesses have kept going. They are having a tough time now but aren't we all?

People, not pointing a finger at you SiLH, seem desperate to deride Sweden as they tried a different approach. Perhaps they were not right but I'm not sure many countries are in a position to judge and maybe judging can only be done in 2-3 years time when we look at this in the whole?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 22, 2020)

Has any approach worked? 

I remember how people were saying how much better the likes of Sweden, Germany and New Zealand were at dealing with Coronavirus than the UK. They too are now struggling just as we are.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 22, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I thought up here in tiers 3 or 4 you can't go to tiers 2 or 1. However moving between tiers 1 to 2 or 2 to 1 is ok?
I'm in 2 going to 1 today to meet my sister in law for a walk and exchange a big bag of family gifts (outside) since the planned 3 household 5 day xmas meet up window got cancelled the other day. Our lockdown doesn't start until 26th.
Is that wrong?
		
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To be fair, for Scotland, I  only looked at tier 4 - which said  "People who live in a Level 3 or 4 local authority area in Scotland are now required to stay in that area unless they have a reasonable excuse to travel, such as work, education, or welfare reasons ..."  I  think there's guidance elsewhere as to what counts as "reasonable excuse" . I can't see that Doon's trip to hospital wouldn't fit that criteria. I think for  zones 2 and below, you're just asked to keep journeys to other zones down to a minimum.


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## bobmac (Dec 22, 2020)

BiMGuy said:



			Has any approach worked?

I remember how people were saying how much better the likes of Sweden, Germany and New Zealand were at dealing with Coronavirus than the UK. They too are now struggling just as we are.
		
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I don't think you can say that New Zealand are struggling the same as the UK.
36 cases in the last 7 days and no deaths in over 3 months


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## Ethan (Dec 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has the approach worked better in the UK, Italy, Spain, France etc? Swedes managed to live their lives in relative normality, their businesses have kept going. They are having a tough time now but aren't we all?

People, not pointing a finger at you SiLH, seem desperate to deride Sweden as they tried a different approach. Perhaps they were not right but I'm not sure many countries are in a position to judge and maybe judging can only be done in 2-3 years time when we look at this in the whole?
		
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Sweden had 5-10x the death rate of Norway or Finland, their economy didn't do any better and there is no evidence that actual mental health (as opposed to vox pop opinions) is any better.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 22, 2020)

bobmac said:



*I don't think you can say that New Zealand are struggling* the same as the UK.
36 cases in the last 7 days and no deaths in over 3 months
		
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Indeed; they would appear to have had the model approach for an island.  Pity we didn't follow it.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 22, 2020)

Mrs Wedge works in a clinic at the local hospital, she received an email yesterday telling her to book an appointment for the vaccine. Being busy in the clinic all day, she didn't get the message until late on, by which time all the appointments were gone, many taken by office staff and desk jockeys, before the front liners dealing with patients. Seems a bit bonkers to me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2020)

I think it’s very hard to compare countries and the actions towards Covid 

I believe we should have done things differently at certain stages and there appears to be a lot that hasn’t gone right and even without hindsight I suspect many would have chosen a different path

But places like New Zealand and indeed Australia whilst being islands are different in many ways - culture , population density and crucially the ability to close themselves off 

Both were able to close all flights into the countries to contain the virus 

Is that something that we could do ? I didn’t tbink so but happy to be told otherwise


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## JamesR (Dec 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has the approach worked better in the UK, Italy, Spain, France etc? Swedes managed to live their lives in relative normality, their businesses have kept going. They are having a tough time now but aren't we all?

People, not pointing a finger at you SiLH, seem desperate to deride Sweden as they tried a different approach. Perhaps they were not right but I'm not sure many countries are in a position to judge and maybe judging can only be done in 2-3 years time when we look at this in the whole?
		
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Even the King of Sweden has come out and said they got it badly wrong


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 22, 2020)

JamesR said:



			Even the King of Sweden has come out and said they got it badly wrong
		
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Pity he didn't challenge it at the time then?  Forgive the unintentional pun but 20 20 hindsight isn't helpful.


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## JamesR (Dec 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think it’s very hard to compare countries and the actions towards Covid

I believe we should have done things differently at certain stages and there appears to be a lot that hasn’t gone right and even without hindsight I suspect many would have chosen a different path

But places like New Zealand and indeed Australia whilst being islands are different in many ways - culture , population density and crucially the ability to close themselves off

Both were able to close all flights into the countries to contain the virus

Is that something that we could do ? I didn’t tbink so but happy to be told otherwise
		
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I read an interesting article about Taiwan.
They have specific Covid lockdown hotels. So when you arrive in the country as a visitor you are tested, you go straight to one of those hotels, you are provided with 3 meals a day, and are contacted daily to make sure you are there and well. 
Then after your lockdown period has ended you are allowed out and are still contacted daily, to ensure you are well.
Thus people can go into the country, but they have a system in place to minimise risk. Which I'm not aware we ever did.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think it’s very hard to compare countries and the actions towards Covid 

I believe we should have done things differently at certain stages and there appears to be a lot that hasn’t gone right and even without hindsight I suspect many would have chosen a different path

But places like New Zealand and indeed Australia whilst being islands are different in many ways - culture , population density and crucially the ability to close themselves off 

Both were able to close all flights into the countries to contain the virus 

Is that something that we could do ? I didn’t tbink so but happy to be told otherwise
		
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Maybe someone will tell you otherwise, but that doesn't change the reality of it. It doesn't make them right and you wrong.
I agree that comparing Oz and particularly  New Zealand with us is apples and oranges.
This Country is a financial/business hub of an international nature. The comings and goings are far far different to NZ.
NZ has location, population and its economy nature on its side.
Even further fortunate, and able to illustrate the  easier ability to deal with the virus, is a place like Mauritius. As one of our number has been able to inform us of how it is dealt with there. ( I would really love to visit there and play golf there. Looks like a golfers paradise😀)
I don't think we were ever able to cut ourselves off as well as we would need to. The rules necessary to do that would be too readily broken in this country
( as we have seen)


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## Robster59 (Dec 22, 2020)

It has now been almost a year since I saw my family.  The last time I was together with my Children was at the Epsom races between Christmas and New Year 2019.  I haven't seen my Mum (who is 97) or my brother or any of my family for a year, nor do I know when I will get to see them again in the flesh.  We haven't been anywhere away from home since that time (apart from me travelling once on business the night Boris announced lockdown) and so all we have is in the house.  
However, we haven't killed each other (yet) and there are lots of other people in a worse situation than us.  We still have our jobs and our house.  Our family has stayed free of the virus (touch wood) and we can only hope next year will be better.


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## GB72 (Dec 22, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			It has now been almost a year since I saw my family.  The last time I was together with my Children was at the Epsom races between Christmas and New Year 2019.  I haven't seen my Mum (who is 97) or my brother or any of my family for a year, nor do I know when I will get to see them again in the flesh.  We haven't been anywhere away from home since that time (apart from me travelling once on business the night Boris announced lockdown) and so all we have is in the house. 
However, we haven't killed each other (yet) and there are lots of other people in a worse situation than us.  We still have our jobs and our house.  Our family has stayed free of the virus (touch wood) and we can only hope next year will be better.
		
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Pretty fair assessment of my position as well, thankful for what I do have as there are thousands far worse off than I am as a result of this.


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 22, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has the approach worked better in the UK, Italy, Spain, France etc? Swedes managed to live their lives in relative normality, their businesses have kept going. They are having a tough time now but aren't we all?

People, not pointing a finger at you SiLH, seem desperate to deride Sweden as they tried a different approach. Perhaps they were not right but I'm not sure many countries are in a position to judge and maybe judging can only be done in 2-3 years time when we look at this in the whole?
		
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As most are aware here already I’m Swedish, so I’ve been following the doings of both the UK and Sweden as one place is where I live, whilst the other is my “home”. 

You have to understand that Sweden is a very peculiar country, which rely on consensus amongst the population, until the day comes when the nationwide consensus thinking takes a 180 degree turn, and “everybody” has had that view/opinion the whole time. 
Anyone in Sweden who even dared to question the Swedish approach in the early days were demonised, probably a lunatic, and most certainly in cahoots with “the Russians”. 

Sweden has not fared any better economically than our closest neighbour, but we have been “better” in terms of amount of dead. 

Even now, the ski resorts are open, the “restrictions” is set to a maximum of 4 people per table in restaurants and recommendation to use face mask on trains and buses has been taken - from the 7th of January! 

The UK politicians certainly hasn’t gone through this without mistakes, and plenty of them, but I’d say it’s been better dealt with than my home country.


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## IanM (Dec 22, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			The UK politicians certainly hasn’t gone through this without mistakes, and plenty of them, but I’d say it’s been better dealt with than my home country.
		
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Although given the coverage on the BBC, this, you'd think the everyone in the UK was dead and the rest of the world has escaped scot free!       (only partially joking!)


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 22, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I read an interesting article about Taiwan.
They have specific Covid lockdown hotels. So when you arrive in the country as a visitor you are tested, you go straight to one of those hotels, you are provided with 3 meals a day, and are contacted daily to make sure you are there and well.
Then after your lockdown period has ended you are allowed out and are still contacted daily, to ensure you are well.
Thus people can go into the country, but they have a system in place to minimise risk. Which I'm not aware we ever did.
		
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Basically the same as Qatar.


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 22, 2020)

IanM said:



			Although given the coverage on the BBC, this, you'd think the everyone in the UK was dead and the rest of the world has escaped scot free!       (only partially joking!)
		
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I'd say we see glimpses of that in this thread as well from time to time. Perhaps the BBC has infiltrated the forum?


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## JamesR (Dec 22, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Basically the same as Qatar.
		
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I don’t know about that.

Just seemed to me that they are very strict early on, and then life gets pretty normal.


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## IanM (Dec 22, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I'd say we see glimpses of that in this thread as well from time to time. Perhaps the BBC has infiltrated the forum? 

Click to expand...

You are turning into a "Little Englander!"  

My cousin in Australia wanted to send us food parcels based on what she heard on the BBC News!  Thought we were 3 days away from eating the dogs!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 22, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I don’t know about that.

Just seemed to me that they are very strict early on, and then life gets pretty normal.
		
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Our son and his family could have flown straight into the UK for Christmas.

But on their return to Qatar they would have to quarantine for two weeks turning a fortnight away from the office into a month and, thus, impractical.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 22, 2020)

IanM said:



			Although given the coverage on the BBC, this, you'd think the everyone in the UK was dead and the rest of the world has escaped scot free!       (only partially joking!)
		
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My impression is that it's not just the BBC who choose to depict the situation in such a way - if indeed they do - so not sure why it is the BBC that is often picked up for comment on it's coverage.  We watch Sky News and Channel 4 news as well as the BBC News, and listen to BBC R4 and LBC news on the radio, and I don't detect that much difference. Indeed we prefer Ch4 News as they seem to be able say it just how they see it without fear of being accused of bias.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 22, 2020)

IanM said:



			Although given the coverage on the BBC, this, you'd think the everyone in the UK was dead and the rest of the world has escaped scot free!       (only partially joking!)
		
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It's only "Scot free" because the English subsidise it      Happy Xmas Doon!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2020)

Tough day. Massive spike in admissions to the trust and have now implemented full escalation process in ICU to cope with the expected increase, on top of the 16 ICU patients and 6 Covid ICU patients we have to date. Lots of work to do tomorrow and feeling like I'm running on empty so glad of the break coming up. Got a horrid feeling there won't be much Christmas cheer around the unit this festive period


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2020)

First hand seeing how quick this new covid spreads is quite eye opening

During first lockdown we had 2-3 cases at work.. people worked entire shifts with them never got it 

This time one postive case has resulted in 3 others so far

My mates daughters got it

And my playing partner has it 

My best mate has it 

Some people say the south east were careless etc but tbh before this I've known 2-3 people first hand have covid 

This month alone I know 6

Stay safe people


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## IainP (Dec 22, 2020)

Continuing the sobering theme. From the figures the worldometer site collates, today the UK became the 11th country to reach the 1000 deaths per million population 🙁
The USA will no doubt join in the next few days.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 22, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			First hand seeing how quick this new covid spreads is quite eye opening

During first lockdown we had 2-3 cases at work.. people worked entire shifts with them never got it

This time one postive case has resulted in 3 others so far

My mates daughters got it

And my playing partner has it

My best mate has it

Some people say the south east were careless etc but tbh before this I've known 2-3 people first hand have covid

This month alone I know 6

Stay safe people
		
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Seems like it gone through my office too. So much so they have fully closed it this week. 1 person at the beginning of last week in part of the building looks like they have spread it to quite a few others.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 22, 2020)

Think its fair to say we will be back in another full, strict lockdown very soon after xmas day


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## AmandaJR (Dec 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Think its fair to say we will be back in another full, strict lockdown very soon after xmas day

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I agree and can't see what other choice we have. This new varient is spreading like wildfire.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 22, 2020)

JamesR said:



			I read an interesting article about Taiwan.
They have specific Covid lockdown hotels. So when you arrive in the country as a visitor you are tested, you go straight to one of those hotels, you are provided with 3 meals a day, and are contacted daily to make sure you are there and well.
Then after your lockdown period has ended you are allowed out and are still contacted daily, to ensure you are well.
Thus people can go into the country, but they have a system in place to minimise risk. Which I'm not aware we ever did.
		
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I believe NZ did something similar. A pal went out with her hubby for some business. First week was in a Covid hotel, she then developed a sore throat ( air con ). So had another week in hotel. When she came out the area she stayed in went into lockdown the day after. It was still in lockdown when she came back. She had one day of freedom 😣


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Think its fair to say we will be back in another full, strict lockdown very soon after xmas day

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That was always happening anyway. That’s the price to pay for Christmas mingling. The rules may of changed but many will still go ahead with the plans they had previously.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 22, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			Think its fair to say we will be back in another full, strict lockdown very soon after xmas day

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The sooner the better.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 22, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I agree and can't see what other choice we have. This new varient is spreading like wildfire.
		
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We've gone from 26 in the whole trust on Friday to 76 today. They are those needing hospital treatment so imagine how many have been infected in that period that are now at home. This is far more prevalent and spreading than the first strain. Can't see any other answer but a strict lockdown. I'd rather not have any tier system but back to a version we had at the start of all this where it was unambiguous about what you could and couldn't do or where you could and couldn't go. KISS (keep it simple stupid) springs to mind especially seeing some of the idiots locally and on the news ignoring social distancing and masks. Leave them no excuse


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## Tashyboy (Dec 22, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			That was always happening anyway. That’s the price to pay for Christmas mingling. The rules may of changed but many will still go ahead with the plans they had previously.
		
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Am not to sure it’s to do with Christmas mingling ( a Royle family term) 😁 Am positive that if Christmas was not this week, we would already be in a national lockdown.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 22, 2020)

Always look on the bright side of life 
EDIT - Seemingly it's actually the summer of 1915 in Gallipoli, my mistake


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## harpo_72 (Dec 22, 2020)

Neighbours daughter flew back from Italy few days ago, was out walking with the family, looks like the isolating is applicable. I came back 2 weeks earlier to do my isolating ... been locked away with no walks .. we are giving all the neighbours a wide berth they also seem to be pushing the boundaries of acceptable


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## Stuart_C (Dec 22, 2020)

Had to nip into town to pick a present up for my lad, I noticed 3 different UBER cars with plates from Manchester and Rochdale, Tier 3 in Tier 2 zones.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 23, 2020)

I really don't see any comparison with oz and NZ. Both have significantly different population densities as well as climates that we all know are less conducive to the spread of the virus. 

Has our government made mistakes. Most definatley, but I personally lay the fault at the publics feet as much as anyone's. 

We're all golfers. We generally agree it's a game with greater morales than say football. Yet I've seen many (myself included), that justify their actions because it's "not agaisnt the rules".


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## DanFST (Dec 23, 2020)

Just went to Tesco to pick up some food for the upcoming stretch (I go after midnight as no one is there). Loads of food on shelves, didn't see anything out of stock apart from Prosecco. 

It's almost like the media are wanting to whip up a panic.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 23, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Just went to Tesco to pick up some food for the upcoming stretch (I go after midnight as no one is there). Loads of food on shelves, didn't see anything out of stock apart from Prosecco.

It's almost like the media are wanting to whip up a panic.
		
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I'll wait until I read it in the Daily Mail - then I know it's true


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## SatchFan (Dec 23, 2020)

Done my final top-up shop at Sainsbury's. Everything in stock. I even picked up a bag of salad. Might sell it on Ebay.


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 23, 2020)

SatchFan said:



			Done my final top-up shop at Sainsbury's. Everything in stock. I even picked up a bag of salad. Might sell it on Ebay.
		
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Sainsbury's around me was the same; full of stock, empty of people. No sign of Xmas rush even! Maybe today is different but that was yesterday. There were more people stacking shelves mid morning than people shopping! 

I must say the trend of fuller trollies, fewer people did seem to continue but not enough to empty shelves.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Had to nip into town to pick a present up for my lad, I noticed 3 different UBER cars with plates from Manchester and Rochdale, Tier 3 in Tier 2 zones.
		
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Movement is allowed for work purposes. It's easy to get paranoid at the moment but we often can't tell whether what people are doing is legitimate or reckless and selfish. Deep breathes, find inner peace  (I may have quoted from Kung Fu Panda there 😆)


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			I really don't see any comparison with oz and NZ. Both have significantly different population densities as well as climates that we all know are less conducive to the spread of the virus.

Has our government made mistakes. Most definatley, but I personally lay the fault at the publics feet as much as anyone's.

We're all golfers. We generally agree it's a game with greater morales than say football. Yet I've seen many (myself included), that justify their actions because it's "not agaisnt the rules".
		
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Population density is much misunderstood. It might be fine in an argument showing how an infection moves more quickly in Tower Hamlets than in Chiswick, but on a country level it is very misleading. The empty spaces that contribute a lot to the denominator have so few people they don't really matter. Canada is one of the biggest countries in the world but 90% of the people live in 10% of the space. The effective population density for areas where is population is much higher. 

NZ won because they did stage 1 of Public Health 101 very well, they kept the virus out by sealing the borders. We could have done the same and the economic price would have been lower than what we are paying anyway. Stage 2 is stopping it moving around, but that is only necessary of you fail on stage 1.


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## bobmac (Dec 23, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Just went to Tesco to pick up some food for the upcoming stretch (I go after midnight as no one is there). Loads of food on shelves, didn't see anything out of stock apart from Prosecco.

It's almost like the media are wanting to whip up a panic.
		
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I was in Tesco at 06.10 this morning and it was very busy compared to normal days at that time.
All items seemed to be in stock though.
I even got some mince pies.....12 for £1.50


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

SatchFan said:



			Done my final top-up shop at Sainsbury's. Everything in stock. I even picked up a bag of salad. Might sell it on Ebay.
		
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only take bids from the UK 😉


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## DRW (Dec 23, 2020)

Some more information available over the new variant, interesting :-

https://www.coronavirus-fraser-group.org/files/files/updated_report_to_nervtag_oxford_20201222.pdf

David Bonsall on Twitter: "An updated version of our report, investigating an association between SARS-COV-2 viral load and mutations associated with the new U.K. variant is linked here. https://t.co/UvNhqdPvkN" / Twitter

If you are into reading this kind of stuff.

Shops have plenty up here, but do have an oversupply around this area, thanks to loads of new supermarkets being built in the last 2-3 years


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

Does Mr Blair know better than the Scientists and are we all going to roll up our sleeves https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55410349


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I tend to agree with your implied cynicism regarding politicians vs scientists, however.... if 1 dose of Pfizer-Biontech gives 91% protection, 2 doses of Oxford gives 60% then it's an interesting suggestion.

*I'm less keen on the "health passport" idea *as that seems like the thin end of particularly unpleasant wedge.
		
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That may just be reality and he is suggesting we are prepared for it. It seems like a logical step so like it or not it may well be coming.

No harm having some thoughts on all of this. Throw up ideas, see which have merit.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That may just be reality and he is suggesting we are prepared for it. It seems like a logical step so like it or not it may well be coming.

No harm having some thoughts on all of this. Throw up ideas, see which have merit.
		
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Agreed but I would prefer ideas thrown up by actual people with the qualifications to do so, all this does is increase speculation by those that see the headlines and like reporters these days, report on rumour and speculation.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Agreed but I would prefer ideas thrown up by actual people with the qualifications to do so, all this does is increase speculation by those that see the headlines and like reporters these days, report on rumour and speculation.
		
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There you go


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Agreed but I would prefer ideas thrown up by actual people with the qualifications to do so, all this does is increase speculation by those that see the headlines and like reporters these days, report on rumour and speculation.
		
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Is what he is saying unreasonable? I'm not sure it is. I think having been PM for 10 or so years qualifies you to an extent. You certainly know how govts work, think, here and worldwide.

I don't think this is political but if so we will have to stop the chat. Hopefully not though as it is more about ideas than politics.


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## DRW (Dec 23, 2020)

A paper was uploaded a while ago over this and can certainly see the argument about doing it :-

Covid-19: Pfizer vaccine efficacy was 52% after first dose and 95% after second dose, paper shows | The BMJ

Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine | NEJM

You only need to look at the separation on the cases recorded graph after 14 days(figure 3 on the link above), to consider this.

Anyone read how many of the supplies of the vaccine are flowing in and if they will continue, considering a number of countries have passed it now.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I agree and can't see what other choice we have. This new varient is spreading like wildfire.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry -this comment is long

I am intrigued as to exactly how this new variant spreads more easily.
I expected quite a dramatic rise in infections ,anyway, as we progressed into winter; colder temperatures which the virus loves, but most importantly the populace spending a lot more time indoors.
Back when pubs, cafes etc were re-opened, I remember the "one metre" distance  which was recommended (or required?).   Strangely, to me, that went against the SD 2 metres asked for at the time, but I imagine they knew that patrons wouldn't keep to two metres so......
At that time it was said that , apart from touch, the virus was passed if you caught droplets from people's breath ( for around 15 mins), and the droplets wouldn't get to you if you were more than two metres away.
Then evidence began to be put forward that you could catch it from the "aerosol" effect, breathing in the air expelled from someone else. Much like passive smoking.
This didn't get too much publicity and I suspect not many people were aware or accepted it.  To some of us it was a no brainier.  Clearly, if you were outdoors,the droplets effect had almost no chance of infecting you. Maybe much the same for the aerosol scenario.
But, indoors, it's a new ball game. SD at two metres and the droplets effect may not be too much of a problem, but the aerosol effect is clearly the virus's best friend., and because the expelled air hangs about without excellent ventilation, most are going to breath in others breath at some time. SD of 2 metres doesn't come into it.

This, to my mind, is what has been driving the increase in the last weeks, but to what extent? Is it just that , accounting for the rapid increase in figures  ( which is why Xmas get togethers is going to be costly), or is it the new variant effect as well?

They've identified a new variant, but haven't detailed (widely) how it transmits more rapidly. Is that based on the fact that most new , rapidly rising,cases are of the new variant?  What do they say to those who claim the rapid case increase  is because of more indoor behaviour, and both original and variant are caught as easily as each other?

Is there data that has been proved showing that the variant passes easier? And how? e.g,
just a whiff of a positive's breath as opposed to longer exposure?. How has this been ascertained?
I'm not doubting that there is some property of the variant that is causing the easier transmission, but we need to know so that we can behave accordingly.
I say this, because for example, on this forum there is the general belief ( true as Ethan has said for the original virus) that playing golf , being outdoors, is safe, because the air disperses the breath very quickly.
But, if the variant requires only a whiff of your playing partner's breath to hit you. 
that safe game of golf may change!
Now, I'm not saying that is the case , but we need to know in what way this virus has been found to be more transmissible.


----------



## BiMGuy (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Does Mr Blair know better than the Scientists and are we all going to roll up our sleeves https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55410349

Click to expand...

He should be in prison not giving ill informed opinions on TV.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Sorry -this comment is long

I am intrigued as to exactly how this new variant spreads more easily.
I expected quite a dramatic rise in infections ,anyway, as we progressed into winter; colder temperatures which the virus loves, but most importantly the populace spending a lot more time indoors.
Back when pubs, cafes etc were re-opened, I remember the "one metre" distance  which was recommended (or required?).   Strangely, to me, that went against the SD 2 metres asked for at the time, but I imagine they knew that patrons wouldn't keep to two metres so......
At that time it was said that , apart from touch, the virus was passed if you caught droplets from people's breath ( for around 15 mins), and the droplets wouldn't get to you if you were more than two metres away.
Then evidence began to be put forward that you could catch it from the "aerosol" effect, breathing in the air expelled from someone else. Much like passive smoking.
This didn't get too much publicity and I suspect not many people were aware or accepted it.  To some of us it was a no brainier.  Clearly, if you were outdoors,the droplets effect had almost no chance of infecting you. Maybe much the same for the aerosol scenario.
But, indoors, it's a new ball game. SD at two metres and the droplets effect may not be too much of a problem, but the aerosol effect is clearly the virus's best friend., and because the expelled air hangs about with excellent ventilation, most are going to breath in others breath at some time. SD of 2 metres doesn't come into it.

This, to my mind, is what has been driving the increase in the last weeks, but to what extent? Is it just that , accounting for the rapid increase in figures  ( which is why Xmas get togethers is going to be costly), or is it the new variant effect as well?

They've identified a new variant, but haven't detailed (widely) how it transmits more rapidly. Is that based on the fact that most new , rapidly rising,cases are of the new variant?  What do they say to those who claim the rapid case increase  is because of more indoor behaviour, and both original and variant are caught as easily as each other?

Is there data that has been proved showing that the variant passes easier? And how? e.g,
just a whiff of a positive's breath as opposed to longer exposure?. How has this been ascertained?
I'm not doubting that there is some property of the variant that is causing the easier transmission, but we need to know so that we can behave accordingly.
I say this, because for example, on this forum there is the general belief ( true as Ethan has said for the original virus) that playing golf , being outdoors, is safe, because the air disperses the breath very quickly.
But, if the variant requires only a whiff of your playing partner's breath to hit you.
that safe game of golf may change!
Now, I'm not saying that is the case , but we need to know in what way this virus has been found to be more transmissible.
		
Click to expand...

A virologist was talking about this on Sunday. He was quite relaxed about it incidentally, not running around screaming, hands in the air. He described the new variant as 'more sticky'. I love that phrase. Apparently it grabs onto you, your cells or whatever and is harder to shake off. Whereas a small dose of the original could be knocked off, beaten up by your system, this new one clings on and stays on you, thus increasing its chances of the infection taking hold. How much or little is needed I don't know but presumably it is less.

All normal according to this bloke, a natural evolution of the virus. He wasn't worried so oddly it made me very calm about it. The vaccine is still the answer, it is rolling out. We just have to keep sensible until more of us have been jabbed. Not different to before really.


----------



## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2020)

So, my sister in law, the supposedly intelligent, responsible NHS frontline nurse, who was happy to have a house full on Boxing Day, including her parents, who are already spending Christmas Day with two other families, has been on the phone to my wife this morning. “You’re still welcome to come round on Boxing Day, if you want”, she says. 

I despair. I genuinely do.


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## bluewolf (Dec 23, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			So, my sister in law, the supposedly intelligent, responsible NHS frontline nurse, who was happy to have a house full on Boxing Day, including her parents, who are already spending Christmas Day with two other families, has been on the phone to my wife this morning. “You’re still welcome to come round on Boxing Day, if you want”, she says.

I despair. I genuinely do.
		
Click to expand...

Right - I'm not saying that what she's doing is in any way right, or sensible. But,

Maybe, just a little maybe, after the year that she's probably had on the front line of the NHS, a Christmas get together is just about the only thing that she has had to look forward to all year and she just can't let go of the thought?

I'm married to a (semi) front line NHS Nurse and she is really struggling with it now. I'm practically picking her up off the floor most days. She hasn't seen any friends or family in months (and to make it worse, the only person she can talk to is ME!). The one thing that kept her going was the thought of spending a small amount of Christmas with her Family. Now that has been taken away (part Covid and part another reason). If this goes on much longer she's going to become ill in my opinion.


----------



## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Does Mr Blair know better than the Scientists and are we all going to roll up our sleeves https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55410349

Click to expand...

The scientists are not determining the policy, the politicians and their appointed officials are, with some scientific advice or cover. 

Blair makes a lot of sense, in that one dose of vaccine confers more than half the effect, and it is likely that those who get Covid despite the vacc will have a milder course, so that helps reduce the pressure on the NHS. Therefore giving double the number one dose gets considerably faster population coverage, and that in turn protects the remainder faster. 

The health passport will become necessary because airlines and foreign immigration officials will require it.


----------



## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Right - I'm not saying that what she's doing is in any way right, or sensible. But,

Maybe, just a little maybe, after the year that she's probably had on the front line of the NHS, a Christmas get together is just about the only thing that she has had to look forward to all year and she just can't let go of the thought?

I'm married to a (semi) front line NHS Nurse and she is really struggling with it now. I'm practically picking her up off the floor most days. She hasn't seen any friends or family in months (and to make it worse, the only person she can talk to is ME!). The one thing that kept her going was the thought of spending a small amount of Christmas with her Family. Now that has been taken away (part Covid and part another reason). If this goes on much longer she's going to become ill in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I absolutely understand what you’re saying, and sympathise with your wife’s situation, but with my sister in law it’s very different. 

I don’t know whether she’s thick skinned, naive, laid back or just plain stupid but she genuinely carries on as though this virus won’t impact on anyone she knows. In her mind, it only happens to others.

In the autumn she invited 20+ people round for her birthday, only to cancel when we all said no. Her daughter’s boyfriend is a regular visitor, staying overnight frequently, despite the restrictions locally. The Boxing Day plans were an absolute joke, given what her parents are planning on Xmas Day, and now this invitation. She either doesn’t get it, or chooses not to see it. Doubly surprising given my mother in law also spent her entire working life in the NHS.

The problem is all this causes arguments in our house, because my wife was initially happy with the original Boxing Day plans, and couldn’t understand why I, with my COPD, was less than impressed.


----------



## clubchamp98 (Dec 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Right - I'm not saying that what she's doing is in any way right, or sensible. But,

Maybe, just a little maybe, after the year that she's probably had on the front line of the NHS, a Christmas get together is just about the only thing that she has had to look forward to all year and she just can't let go of the thought?

I'm married to a (semi) front line NHS Nurse and she is really struggling with it now. I'm practically picking her up off the floor most days. She hasn't seen any friends or family in months (and to make it worse, the only person she can talk to is ME!). The one thing that kept her going was the thought of spending a small amount of Christmas with her Family. Now that has been taken away (part Covid and part another reason). If this goes on much longer she's going to become ill in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

That’s a really tough choice being decided by lots of frontline staff.
I do feel for her and them .
My son is in this dilemma.
It’s not easy .


----------



## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Sorry -this comment is long

I am intrigued as to exactly how this new variant spreads more easily.
I expected quite a dramatic rise in infections ,anyway, as we progressed into winter; colder temperatures which the virus loves, but most importantly the populace spending a lot more time indoors.
Back when pubs, cafes etc were re-opened, I remember the "one metre" distance  which was recommended (or required?).   Strangely, to me, that went against the SD 2 metres asked for at the time, but I imagine they knew that patrons wouldn't keep to two metres so......
At that time it was said that , apart from touch, the virus was passed if you caught droplets from people's breath ( for around 15 mins), and the droplets wouldn't get to you if you were more than two metres away.
Then evidence began to be put forward that you could catch it from the "aerosol" effect, breathing in the air expelled from someone else. Much like passive smoking.
This didn't get too much publicity and I suspect not many people were aware or accepted it.  To some of us it was a no brainier.  Clearly, if you were outdoors,the droplets effect had almost no chance of infecting you. Maybe much the same for the aerosol scenario.
But, indoors, it's a new ball game. SD at two metres and the droplets effect may not be too much of a problem, but the aerosol effect is clearly the virus's best friend., and because the expelled air hangs about with excellent ventilation, most are going to breath in others breath at some time. SD of 2 metres doesn't come into it.

This, to my mind, is what has been driving the increase in the last weeks, but to what extent? Is it just that , accounting for the rapid increase in figures  ( which is why Xmas get togethers is going to be costly), or is it the new variant effect as well?

They've identified a new variant, but haven't detailed (widely) how it transmits more rapidly. Is that based on the fact that most new , rapidly rising,cases are of the new variant?  What do they say to those who claim the rapid case increase  is because of more indoor behaviour, and both original and variant are caught as easily as each other?

Is there data that has been proved showing that the variant passes easier? And how? e.g,
just a whiff of a positive's breath as opposed to longer exposure?. How has this been ascertained?
I'm not doubting that there is some property of the variant that is causing the easier transmission, but we need to know so that we can behave accordingly.
I say this, because for example, on this forum there is the general belief ( true as Ethan has said for the original virus) that playing golf , being outdoors, is safe, because the air disperses the breath very quickly.
But, if the variant requires only a whiff of your playing partner's breath to hit you. 
that safe game of golf may change!
Now, I'm not saying that is the case , but we need to know in what way this virus has been found to be more transmissible.
		
Click to expand...

I was asking the question on how it is more transferable a few days ago.  I'm finding it difficult to understand, the news articles are suggesting it may be up to 70% more transferable but not how that's possible.

I can understand that once injested it may have a higher possibility of creating infection from a smaller viral load, if this is indeed the case.
We previously saw large infection rates in the North of England where southern areas were much lower, this was more to do with social mixing than new strains of the virus.


----------



## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			So, my sister in law, the supposedly intelligent, responsible NHS frontline nurse, who was happy to have a house full on Boxing Day, including her parents, who are already spending Christmas Day with two other families, has been on the phone to my wife this morning. “You’re still welcome to come round on Boxing Day, if you want”, she says.

I despair. I genuinely do.
		
Click to expand...

One of my best mate's sister works as a nurse in a hospital in South Wales, basically in one of the worst hit areas of the UK for the virus. She has spent most of this year sticking posts on FB about everyone needing to pull together and more recently, we can miss this Christmas so we can have another in the future. That is her public persona. Behind the scenes she has been planning a Christmas with herself, husband and their 2 kids plus parents and then my mate inc. his wife and their child. When Boris announced Tier 4, which he was in, he made the decision that they'd be having Christmas alone and his sister has got extremely annoyed about it. She wanted a family Christmas despite the new guidance/laws. You do have to wonder with some people, especially with those who you would expect to be more sensible.


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## stefanovic (Dec 23, 2020)

For the first time ever 2 weeks ago I had my house broken in to. Nothing stolen but it left me with a broken door and an excess insurance bill of £145.
And I'm still finding fragments of glass.
Must be something to do with the virus as other properties nearby also suffered. Crime stats might prove the link.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I was asking the question on how it is more transferable a few days ago.  I'm finding it difficult to understand, the news articles are suggesting it may be up to 70% more transferable but not how that's possible.

I can understand that once injested it may have a higher possibility of creating infection from a smaller viral load, if this is indeed the case.
We previously saw large infection rates in the North of England where southern areas were much lower, this was more to do with social mixing than new strains of the virus.
		
Click to expand...

I think the greater transmissibility is partly due to the viral load and partly because the new variant has a great affinity (i.e. binds more readily) with the ACE2 receptor which is the main route of entry into the body.


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## IanM (Dec 23, 2020)

Just me and the "missus" in the house for Xmas, all plans cancelled, not that we had really made any other than mum-in-law visiting.  She didn't want to travel so cancelled before Drakeford/Boris intervened.  

My mum is back in Barnet Hospital, needed an operation, we are not allowed to see her.  She is refusing to talk to us on her mobile as she thinks were have left her in there without visiting.  A right blooming mess.  

Golf courses in Wales still closed, weather is bloody awful.  Forget all the noise, we are only being asked to restrict contact with folk outside our households...that is annoying, but less annoying that being in hospital on a ventilator.   

Quite frankly Xmas can do one!  Engage log burner and watch the Telly!!  Call me when the sun comes out and golf reopens!


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## DanFST (Dec 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That may just be reality and he is suggesting we are prepared for it. It seems like a logical step so like it or not it may well be coming.

No harm having some thoughts on all of this. Throw up ideas, see which have merit.
		
Click to expand...

I can see how that will play out. 

Old people with a health passport, doing as they please. 

Young people who are little to no risk of dying, having to wait for months till their turn. Why would any young people bother to obey after over a year of it?


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## Mudball (Dec 23, 2020)

No chicken at our large Sainsburys yesterday...  got a couple of British poussin..   Trucker circus at the dock..  all seems like a full dress rehearsal for a no-deal.  if we can get thru this, we can get thru everything..


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the greater transmissibility is partly due to the viral load and partly because the new variant has a great affinity (i.e. binds more readily) with the ACE2 receptor which is the main route of entry into the body.
		
Click to expand...

Go on, call it sticky. Dumb down for us mortals


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I can see how that will play out.

Old people with a health passport, doing as they please.

Young people who are little to no risk of dying, having to wait for months till their turn. Why would any young people bother to obey after over a year of it?
		
Click to expand...

If you can't go on holiday without one, if you can not access certain pubs, restaurants, shops etc without one then people will have no choice but to obey. No health passport, no entry.

The health passport is being talked about across Europe, no doubt further afield. Whether we like it or not may not be relevant. If other countries insist on it before you can board a plane, ferry etc then you either have one or stay at home. Not sure whether it will expand to domestic areas, that may be too extravagant, but who knows? If you had said 9 months ago that we would all be wearing masks I would have laughed at you, in fact I did laugh at my Chinese contact who sent a picture of herself in one. Who's laughing now!

How quickly a scheme is rolled out, who knows? Clearly we need to vaccinate more people more quickly or as you say we will be disenfranchising chunks of the population unfairly.


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			How quickly a scheme is rolled out, who knows? Clearly we need to vaccinate more people more quickly or as you say we will be disenfranchising chunks of the population unfairly.
		
Click to expand...

That would be the big one. I have no particular issues with a health passport but you cannot tell the younger part of the population who are at the bottom of the vaccine list that not only are their short term (maybe longer in some cases) lives ruined but you also cannot travel as you haven't got a passport which you have no chances of getting any time soon.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A virologist was talking about this on Sunday. He was quite relaxed about it incidentally, not running around screaming, hands in the air. He described the new variant as 'more sticky'. I love that phrase. Apparently it grabs onto you, your cells or whatever and is harder to shake off. Whereas a small dose of the original could be knocked off, beaten up by your system, this new one clings on and stays on you, thus increasing its chances of the infection taking hold. How much or little is needed I don't know but presumably it is less.

All normal according to this bloke, a natural evolution of the virus. He wasn't worried so oddly it made me very calm about it. The vaccine is still the answer, it is rolling out. We just have to keep sensible until more of us have been jabbed. Not different to before really.
		
Click to expand...

Chris Smith from Cambridge - excellent information with zero agenda - always listen to him intently.


----------



## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Go on, call it sticky. Dumb down for us mortals 

Click to expand...

it sticks better to your lungs, innit?


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			it sticks better to your lungs, innit?
		
Click to expand...

I was with you until you added innit


----------



## ColchesterFC (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The scientists are not determining the policy, the politicians and their appointed officials are, with some scientific advice or cover.

Blair makes a lot of sense, in that one dose of vaccine confers more than half the effect, and it is likely that those who get Covid despite the vacc will have a milder course, so that helps reduce the pressure on the NHS. Therefore giving double the number one dose gets considerably faster population coverage, and that in turn protects the remainder faster.

The health passport will become necessary because airlines and foreign immigration officials will require it.
		
Click to expand...

Could they go back later in the year and give the second dose after a few months when they have more supplies or does the second dose need to be after 3 weeks to be effective?


----------



## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Right - I'm not saying that what she's doing is in any way right, or sensible. But,

Maybe, just a little maybe, after the year that she's probably had on the front line of the NHS, a Christmas get together is just about the only thing that she has had to look forward to all year and she just can't let go of the thought?

I'm married to a (semi) front line NHS Nurse and she is really struggling with it now. *I'm practically picking her up off the floor *most days. She hasn't seen any friends or family in months (and to make it worse, the only person she can talk to is ME!). The one thing that kept her going was the thought of spending a small amount of Christmas with her Family. Now that has been taken away (part Covid and part another reason). If this goes on much longer she's going to become ill in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I said this last week when next door neighbour came round, she works on a Covid ward and looks absolutely knackered. I feel for them all.
If baby Jesus had not been born 2020 years ago we would all be in lockdown..


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Right - I'm not saying that what she's doing is in any way right, or sensible. But,

Maybe, just a little maybe, after the year that she's probably had on the front line of the NHS, a Christmas get together is just about the only thing that she has had to look forward to all year and she just can't let go of the thought?

I'm married to a (semi) front line NHS Nurse and she is really struggling with it now. I'm practically picking her up off the floor most days. She hasn't seen any friends or family in months (and to make it worse, the only person she can talk to is ME!). The one thing that kept her going was the thought of spending a small amount of Christmas with her Family. Now that has been taken away (part Covid and part another reason). If this goes on much longer she's going to become ill in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I have a friend whose daughter is front line Covid nurse, showering 5 times a day  as required to stay safe apparently , and I feel for her and all front line staff.
But,at the risk of being told I am unsympathetic ( happy Xmas , Phil😀), the overwhelming need is to be professional, logical and not forget that mixing with people in households is going to spread the virus. It is an inconvenient fact and as painful as it is, it is non negotiable, surely?


----------



## Imurg (Dec 23, 2020)

I think I was ok with the first lockdown..the weather was decent and once the golf courses opened up things were much better. There was stuff to do.
Lockdown 2 was a pain
I'd got back into the swing of work and working golf in around lessons and the weather wasn't too bad.
Lockdown 3 and I'm struggling. Not so much in a depression sense, more on focus.
Apart from golf I've got little to focus on..Xmas is going to be small and quiet so nothing to do there.
Weather is crap so things like gardening (which I hate with a passion anyway but at least its something to do) are out...
Every day just feels like a Sunday.
This morning I had no idea what day of the week it was...


----------



## Fade and Die (Dec 23, 2020)

Mudball said:



			No chicken at our large Sainsburys yesterday...  got a couple of British poussin..   Trucker circus at the dock..  all seems like a full dress rehearsal for a no-deal.  *if we can get thru this, we can get thru everything..*

Click to expand...

Exactly right MB, and do you know what?... we will get through it. Brexit, COVID, poussin instead of chicken (🙀) We will overcome it all!😁


----------



## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2020)

This new Tier 4 expansion is akin to death by a thousand cuts, why don't they just do the full national lockdown and be done with it. I know they don't want to seen to invoking a second full lockdown but essentially they are by increasing the restrictions incrementally.


----------



## DanFST (Dec 23, 2020)

Apart from only 2 balls, no real difference to me to be honest. 

I hope they stop schools tho.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The scientists are not determining the policy, the politicians and their appointed officials are, with some scientific advice or cover. 

Blair makes a lot of sense, in that one dose of vaccine confers more than half the effect, and it is likely that those who get Covid despite the vacc will have a milder course, so that helps reduce the pressure on the NHS. Therefore giving double the number one dose gets considerably faster population coverage, and that in turn protects the remainder faster. 

The health passport will become necessary because airlines and foreign immigration officials will require it.
		
Click to expand...

If a chap of your understanding of vaccines sees sense in Blairs suggestion, then it begs the question, why the hell are the powers that be not adopting it.?
I ,too, as a layman, thought it a sensible suggestion, but surely there must be a medically based reason to reject it?
Thinking why it isn't being accepted and changes being made to roll it  out, I thought perhaps that it was rejected because,say, if the first injection wasn't reinforced by a timely second one, then its effectiveness would be  lost and a much later second injection wouldn't recover the protection?  Or something similar?

But now that you have come out and inferred there isn't such a medical reason, I find it baffling why Hancock hasn't changed the roll out method.
It cannot be just plain hidebound, can it?

Boris and Hancock are up against it, now another new variant etc;surely they would grasp this suggestion if there was no downside to it?
Why is the medical profession not shouting for this change in the media?
Are we that stupid as a nation


----------



## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If a chap of your understanding of vaccines sees sense in Blairs suggestion, then it begs the question, why the hell are the powers that be not adopting it.?
I ,too, as a layman, thought it a sensible suggestion, but surely there must be a medically based reason to reject it?
Thinking why it isn't being accepted and changes being made to roll it  out, I thought perhaps that it was rejected because,say, if the first injection wasn't reinforced by a timely second one, then its effectiveness would be  lost and a much later second injection wouldn't recover the protection?  Or something similar?

But now that you have come out and inferred there isn't such a medical reason, I find it baffling why Hancock hasn't changed the roll out method.
It cannot be just plain hidebound, can it?

Boris and Hancock are up against it, now another new variant etc;surely they would grasp this suggestion if there was no downside to it?
Why is the medical profession not shouting for this change in the media?
Are we that stupid as a nation
		
Click to expand...

If the desired strategy is to reduce overall risk in the population, one dose for everyone is a better policy because it is faster and the overall bang for your buck is better. It may not offer the same level of protection to each individual as two doses, but as well as your personal benefit, you also get some additional protection when the population risk falls because everyone else is even partially protected. 

However, it hasn't been formally studied for the Pfizer/Moderna/AZ vaccine (although I think the Johnson and Johnson vaccine may be adopting this approach), but we are in uncharted territory and getting a critical mass protected is needed asafp. 

That graphic from the Pfizer study, posted previously here, makes a good case for it, though.


----------



## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Could they go back later in the year and give the second dose after a few months when they have more supplies or does the second dose need to be after 3 weeks to be effective?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, and they could update that booster with the latest genetic variants, which will have changed a few more time between now and then. It is pretty easy to do that compared to reengineering the flu vaccine, more like a firmware update.


----------



## bluewolf (Dec 23, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			This new Tier 4 expansion is akin to death by a thousand cuts, why don't they just do the full national lockdown and be done with it. I know they don't want to seen to invoking a second full lockdown but essentially they are by increasing the restrictions incrementally.
		
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I'm hearing this quite a lot at the moment. The only thing that's puzzling me is why I didn't hear it when large swathes of the North were put into (almost) full lockdown at the end of Summer and into the Autumn?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I think I was ok with the first lockdown..the weather was decent and once the golf courses opened up things were much better. There was stuff to do.
Lockdown 2 was a pain
I'd got back into the swing of work and working golf in around lessons and the weather wasn't too bad.
*Lockdown 3 and I'm struggling. Not so much in a depression sense, more on focus.*
Apart from golf I've got little to focus on..Xmas is going to be small and quiet so nothing to do there.
Weather is crap so things like gardening (which I hate with a passion anyway but at least its something to do) are out...
Every day just feels like a Sunday.
This morning I had no idea what day of the week it was...
		
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For me, when we were in the first lockdown. Everybody was in the same storm in the same boat. We were all rowing together. We all had the same loss, the same pain. The village idiots were very much in the minority.
The second lockdown was quite frankly a joke.
In between we have had different tiers, the storms and the boats are differant, some are more luxurious than others. Same town and different tiers. The village idiots have been more abundant. It has created division and arguements. This forum being typical of the UKs frustrations.
Until we are all back in the same lockdown similar to the first, Covid will take more lives than it should be doing.

Being a realist, am looking forward to me last round of golf tomorrow for at least a month. If it helps to keep me mum and dad alive and other mums and dads etc etc. It’s a small price to pay.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was with you until you added innit 

Click to expand...

You looking for PA job lol


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I was asking the question on how it is more transferable a few days ago.  I'm finding it difficult to understand, the news articles are suggesting it may be up to 70% more transferable but not how that's possible.

I can understand that once injested it may have a higher possibility of creating infection from a smaller viral load, if this is indeed the case.
We previously saw large infection rates in the North of England where southern areas were much lower, this was more to do with social mixing than new strains of the virus.
		
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Yes, I remembered your post, and it started me thinking on similar lines. 
As far as I can remember,, I don't think you had a satisfactory answer.
( not saying you should have had, because us forummers are not the fount of all knowledge 😀,) but there hasn't been anything like an explanation given on TV etc that I know of, and I would have thought someone on there would have made a point of pressing this question, just so we would know better what to do or not to do


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A virologist was talking about this on Sunday. He was quite relaxed about it incidentally, not running around screaming, hands in the air. He described the new variant as 'more sticky'. I love that phrase. Apparently it grabs onto you, your cells or whatever and is harder to shake off. Whereas a small dose of the original could be knocked off, beaten up by your system, this new one clings on and stays on you, thus increasing its chances of the infection taking hold. How much or little is needed I don't know but presumably it is less.

All normal according to this bloke, a natural evolution of the virus. He wasn't worried so oddly it made me very calm about it. The vaccine is still the answer, it is rolling out. We just have to keep sensible until more of us have been jabbed. Not different to before really.
		
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He is not wrong. Virus enters cells by binding to a receptor. Essentially a part of the virus, in this case the spike protein, is shaped such that it roughly its into another shaped protein on the epithelium (lining of mouth, throat, lungs). Think trying to findthe right size of Phillips head screwdriver for a slightly stuck screw head. This variant has a slightly better fit than previous versions, so it has a better shot at opening it up and entering the cell, where it will start replicating. A virus is basically a mobile gene factory. With evolution, which for viruses is days/weeks/months, some of the viruses which fit just a shade better take over and squeeze out the rest, and then it repeats. 

It isn't just one virus trying this, it is a small army. It appears this variant comes in larger numbers, so makes more attempts, and each attempt is slightly more likely to succeed. Taken together, that is a big rise in transmissibility. 

It was inevitable that Tier 4 would have to broaden, and they aren't done yet.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If the desired strategy is to reduce overall risk in the population, one dose for everyone is a better policy because it is faster and the overall bang for your buck is better. It may not offer the same level of protection to each individual as two doses, but as well as your personal benefit, you also get some additional protection when the population risk falls because everyone else is even partially protected.

However, it hasn't been formally studied for the Pfizer/Moderna/AZ vaccine (although I think the Johnson and Johnson vaccine may be adopting this approach), but we are in uncharted territory and getting a critical mass protected is needed asafp.

That graphic from the Pfizer study, posted previously here, makes a good case for it, though.
		
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Yet it was reported on the news that scientists indicated that further research would be required before this strategy could be adopted which would cause further delay while it went through the necessary procedures and received clearance for use.

Catch 22


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, I remembered your post, and it started me thinking on similar lines.
As far as I can remember,, *I don't think you had a satisfactory answer.*
( not saying you should have had, because us forummers are not the fount of all knowledge 😀,) but there hasn't been anything like an explanation given on TV etc that I know of, and I would have thought someone on there would have made a point of pressing this question, just so we would know better what to do or not to do
		
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I think this has been answered - more viral invaders, each of which is a bit stickier (ahem, Lord Tyrion).


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If the desired strategy is to reduce overall risk in the population, one dose for everyone is a better policy because it is faster and the overall bang for your buck is better. It may not offer the same level of protection to each individual as two doses, but as well as your personal benefit, you also get some additional protection when the population risk falls because everyone else is even partially protected. 

However, it hasn't been formally studied for the Pfizer/Moderna/AZ vaccine (although I think the Johnson and Johnson vaccine may be adopting this approach), but we are in uncharted territory and getting a critical mass protected is needed asafp. 

That graphic from the Pfizer study, posted previously here, makes a good case for it, though.
		
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Yes, I agree . Particularly your first paragraph- so, rhetorically, why isn't it being done. Makes you feel like ringing No. 10. Anyone know the number?😳


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

There’s something about these Covid mutations that is intriguing me but bogging me off at the same time.

Missis T said from day one it will mutate. They have. Nowt genius there if you have worked in the NHS . No differant to the flu every year. It’s differant.

France and the rest of the world ( mainly Europe) imposed restrictions on the UK because it identified a new more infectious strain of the Covid virus. Not supposed to be more deadly, but more infectious. But why? The UK is allegedly one of the world leaders in testing for these viruses. So as I see it in a layman’s term. If your not looking for it you won’t find it. The Uk found it. But was the new strain from here. To put it in a golfing sense, not all golf balls you find are yours. Furthermore, when the UK stopped France from being a safe travel corridor because of high levels of Covid in France. The French response was “ there will be repercussions”. 😳

The reason am having a rant is because the UK has now identified a new strain of the virus which “ originated” in South Africa. Or did it? Again the UK is looking for the strains and found someone else’s “ golf ball”.

Tashyboy cannot help but think that throughout all these troubled times, people are playing politics more than thinking about people’s lives.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yet it was reported on the news that scientists indicated that further research would be required before this strategy could be adopted which would cause further delay while it went through the necessary procedures and received clearance for use.

Catch 22
		
Click to expand...

It is a tricky one for Govt. They have geared up for 2 doses, bought a load of vaccines, and although an attractive idea to get through people twice as fast, the idea of settling for less than optimal coverage per person and the unlicensed nature of one dose would make it, as Sir Humphrey would have said, a very courageous decision. If scientific opinion swung behind it, and there was broad political support, though ... 

I think public opinion would depend a bit where you are in the pecking order. If you have had the first vacc or will soon have it, you are probably more inclined to say you would prefer the second one too, thanks. If you are going to have to wait 4 or 5 months but feel you are at risk, you would be very glad of one. If you are a young whippersnapper who thinks they will live for ever, you probably don't really care either way.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think this has been answered - more viral invaders, each of which is a bit stickier (ahem, Lord Tyrion).
		
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Yes, I saw that. And understand. However, I must say , up until this variant, that I had uppermost in my mind that the prevention was in not getting ANY of the dose of the virus. 
You are saying , are you not, that many of us have had some virus introduced into our system, but not in large enough quantities to register, and we reject it and thus we don't get infected.
Now, with the new variant, these little doses are there, just like before, but they are registering?
So, 4 balls on the open golf course may not be the  same  safe  thing🤔?


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is a tricky one for Govt. They have geared up for 2 doses, bought a load of vaccines, and although an attractive idea to get through people twice as fast, the idea of settling for less than optimal coverage per person and the unlicensed nature of one dose would make it, as Sir Humphrey would have said, a very courageous decision. If scientific opinion swung behind it, and there was broad political support, though ...

I think public opinion would depend a bit where you are in the pecking order. If you have had the first vacc or will soon have it, you are probably more inclined to say you would prefer the second one too, thanks. If you are going to have to wait 4 or 5 months but feel you are at risk, you would be very glad of one. If you are a young whippersnapper who thinks they will live for ever, you probably don't really care either way.
		
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Goes back to the idea of vaccine passports which I can’t see how it is that viable unless all travel is suspended or is the “old I’m all right jack” attitude.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s something about these Covid mutations that is intriguing me but bogging me off at the same time.

Missis T said from day one it will mutate. They have. Nowt genius there if you have worked in the NHS . No differant to the flu every year. It’s differant.

France and the rest of the world ( mainly Europe) imposed restrictions on the UK because it identified a new more infectious strain of the Covid virus. Not supposed to be more deadly, but more infectious. But why? The UK is allegedly one of the world leaders in testing for these viruses. So as I see it in a layman’s term. If your not looking for it you won’t find it. The Uk found it. But was the new strain from here. To put it in a golfing sense, not all golf balls you find are yours. Furthermore, when the UK stopped France from being a safe travel corridor because of high levels of Covid in France. The French response was “ there will be repercussions”. 😳

The reason am having a rant is because the UK has now identified a new strain of the virus which “ originated” in South Africa. Or did it? Again the UK is looking for the strains and found someone else’s “ golf ball”.

Tashyboy cannot help but think that throughout all these troubled times, people are playing politics more than thinking about people’s lives.
		
Click to expand...

It is probably all over Europe, but I think it is hard to blame France from stoping movement until they get some idea what is going on.

The whole thing has been political, in every country, whether it is Tory back benchers, SNP or whatever here, Sinn Fein vs Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in Ireland, Trump and the culture warriors versus the Dems and Fauci in the US etc etc.

If it wasn't so scary, the mutations and viral evolution is fascinating. Like a microcosm of human evolution but in a hugely compressed time period. Random errors in the viral genetics create small differences. Those which offer an evolutionary advantage take over at the expense of those that don't, so the virus refines itself over time, same way that humans are getting taller, stronger, living longer (OK, nutrition nd health are part of it, but they are products of evolution too). One interesting element is that viral replication is impaired if the host population dies off, so viruses tend to become more transmissible but less pathogenic over time. Even now and again a Frankenvirus pops up which breaks this pattern, but then it too tends to evolve in the same direction.


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## IainP (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			He is not wrong. Virus enters cells by binding to a receptor. Essentially a part of the virus, in this case the spike protein, is shaped such that it roughly its into another shaped protein on the epithelium (lining of mouth, throat, lungs). Think trying to findthe right size of Phillips head screwdriver for a slightly stuck screw head. This variant has a slightly better fit than previous versions, so it has a better shot at opening it up and entering the cell, where it will start replicating. A virus is basically a mobile gene factory. With evolution, which for viruses is days/weeks/months, some of the viruses which fit just a shade better take over and squeeze out the rest, and then it repeats. 

It isn't just one virus trying this, it is a small army. It appears this variant comes in larger numbers, so makes more attempts, and each attempt is slightly more likely to succeed. Taken together, that is a big rise in transmissibility. 

It was inevitable that Tier 4 would have to broaden, and they aren't done yet.
		
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I think most have been in agreement on here that the risk profile is different indoors (higher) verses outdoors.
Whilst that distinction will remain might this variant move the outdoor risk sufficiently to make us rethink golf. Tricky one.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, I saw that. And understand. However, I must say , up until this variant, that I had uppermost in my mind that the prevention was in not getting ANY of the dose of the virus.
You are saying , are you not, that many of us have had some virus introduced into our system, but not in large enough quantities to register, and we reject it and thus we don't get infected.
Now, with the new variant, these little doses are there, just like before, but they are registering?
So, 4 balls on the open golf course may not be the  same  safe  thing🤔?
		
Click to expand...

Probably, and your innate immunity, the non-specific protection from barriers, mucus, some blood cells which non-specifically attack stuff that looks vaguely suspicious all offer resistance, and that might be enough. If the dose is too large, that immunity is not enough, and some people, older, immunosuppressed etc have even less of it in the first place.

Outside is safer because of dispersal rescuing viral load, and possibly the effect of direct UV light.

I think that not making a bigger distinction between poorly ventilated indoors and being outdoors was a failing of previous advice.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 23, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			That would be the big one. I have no particular issues with a health passport but you cannot tell the younger part of the population who are at the bottom of the vaccine list that not only are their short term (maybe longer in some cases) lives ruined but you also cannot travel as you haven't got a passport which you have no chances of getting any time soon.
		
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I think the last bit will be decided by where you are going.
If that country says you need one , you get one or go elsewhere.
Domestically can’t be fair until everyone has had the option of a vaccine after that though it’s your own fault if you have refused one.
You are then excluding yourself.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

IainP said:



			I think most have been in agreement on here that the risk profile is different indoors (higher) verses outdoors.
Whilst that distinction will remain might this variant move the outdoor risk sufficiently to make us rethink golf. Tricky one.
		
Click to expand...

In my view, this new variant increases the risk both indoors and out, but arguably increases the risk indoors more in relative terms. Even if the risk increased by the reported 70%, that still leaves the outdoors risk pretty low, but moves the risk in confined space in a highish prevalence area to red alert.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think the last bit will be decided by where you are going.
If that country says you need one , you get one or go elsewhere.
Domestically can’t be fair until everyone has had the option of a vaccine after that though it’s your own fault if you have refused one.
You are then excluding yourself.
		
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There airlines also don't fancy any liability from someone who infects a plane land of people, so they will start to insist too.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s something about these Covid mutations that is intriguing me but bogging me off at the same time.

Missis T said from day one it will mutate. They have. Nowt genius there if you have worked in the NHS . No differant to the flu every year. It’s differant.

France and the rest of the world ( mainly Europe) imposed restrictions on the UK because it identified a new more infectious strain of the Covid virus. Not supposed to be more deadly, but more infectious. But why? The UK is allegedly one of the world leaders in testing for these viruses. So as I see it in a layman’s term. If your not looking for it you won’t find it. The Uk found it. But was the new strain from here. To put it in a golfing sense, not all golf balls you find are yours. Furthermore, when the UK stopped France from being a safe travel corridor because of high levels of Covid in France. The French response was “ there will be repercussions”. 😳

The reason am having a rant is because the UK has now identified a new strain of the virus which “ originated” in South Africa. Or did it? Again the UK is looking for the strains and found someone else’s “ golf ball”.

Tashyboy cannot help but think that throughout all these troubled times, people are playing politics more than thinking about people’s lives.
		
Click to expand...

I agree.
If most people have to self isolate for 10/14 days what is a 48 hour port closure all about.
Plus letting French nationals back first, they are Europeans and should all wait their turn.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			There airlines also don't fancy any liability from someone who infects a plane land of people, so they will start to insist too.
		
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It will be like an ESTA to get into the USA.
If you try and con the US Border control you are in big trouble they take no prisoners.
But while the French have closed their border , we are still letting anyone in who wants to come.
Except South Africans atm but that’s going to have to change to most of Europe judging by the news.

What confuses me is “ you can’t travel out of your tier 4 area , but you can enter the country from almost anywhere in the world” assuming quarantine restrictions.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

Time to play the Macron game


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## IanM (Dec 23, 2020)

Only the French havent closed the border.... just one.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Yes, and they could update that booster with the latest genetic variants, which will have changed a few more time between now and then. It is pretty easy to do that compared to reengineering the flu vaccine, more like a firmware update.
		
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OMG. That's even more of a case for using all the now available vaccine as Blair and you suggest. I do not doubt what you are saying, Ethan. I am quite frustrated that it isn't being implemented, or that being stated that it will be.
I can only hope that your organisation and other medical ones start getting on to the Authorities.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is a tricky one for Govt. They have geared up for 2 doses, bought a load of vaccines, and although an attractive idea to get through people twice as fast, the idea of settling for less than optimal coverage per person and the unlicensed nature of one dose would make it, as Sir Humphrey would have said, a very courageous decision. If scientific opinion swung behind it, and there was broad political support, though ...

I think public opinion would depend a bit where you are in the pecking order. If you have had the first vacc or will soon have it, you are probably more inclined to say you would prefer the second one too, thanks. If you are going to have to wait 4 or 5 months but feel you are at risk, you would be very glad of one. If you are a young whippersnapper who thinks they will live for ever, you probably don't really care either way.
		
Click to expand...

 Belatedly me and Missis Tash watched the Oxford  Covid vaccine programme the other night. It was excellent. Even on there they said more than one vaccine is required. For me it is nit picking asking for one vaccine injection when six months ago the whole world was desperate for any kind of vaccine. Quite frankly Tony Blair has contributed nothing to this Covid “ fight” for 9 months then asks for one single vaccine. Am not saying owt about him coz A, we don’t discuss politics and B he is a plank.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Belatedly me and Missis Tash watched the Oxford  Covid vaccine programme the other night. It was excellent. Even on there they said more than one vaccine is required. For me it is nit picking asking for one vaccine injection when six months ago the whole world was desperate for any kind of vaccine. Quite frankly Tony Blair has contributed nothing to this Covid “ fight” for 9 months then asks for one single vaccine. Am not saying owt about him coz A, we don’t discuss politics and B he is a plank.
		
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Blair is a polarising figure, but the subtext of what he is saying is important. The clock is running, and this new strain effectively means that our opponent the virus has got a speed boost, and even with currently supply promises, it will be June before they get into the over 50 group. Estimates for the cost in lives and admissions in the meantime must have just gone up. One shot is a more reliable population approach.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is probably all over Europe, but I think it is hard to blame France from stoping movement until they get some idea what is going on.

The whole thing has been political, in every country, whether it is Tory back benchers, SNP or whatever here, Sinn Fein vs Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in Ireland, Trump and the culture warriors versus the Dems and Fauci in the US etc etc.

*If it wasn't so scary, the mutations and viral evolution is fascinating. Like a microcosm of human evolution but in a hugely compressed time period. Random errors in the viral genetics create small differences. Those which offer an evolutionary advantage take over at the expense of those that don't, so the virus refines itself over time, same way that humans are getting taller, stronger, living longer (OK, nutrition nd health are part of it, but they are products of evolution too). One interesting element is that viral replication is impaired if the host population dies off, so viruses tend to become more transmissible but less pathogenic over time. Even now and again a Frankenvirus pops up which breaks this pattern, but then it too tends to evolve in the same direction.*

Click to expand...



When this is done and dusted and Covid 19 is history. Someone like Panorama or National Geographic is going to do a programme about this Covid. Similar to the way that all Black death, Spanish flu epidemics etc etc have killed billions over the years has been analysed. It will be a fascinating yet upsetting viewing.
I mentioned at the start of this Covid that it had the potential to be another Spanish flu. SF killed 50 million give or take a million. Yet only 3% of people infected died. Do the maths and how many worldwide were infected ( 1.6 billionish). Another factor was the Spanish flu  Never differentiated between young and old. A lot of young fit people died with the Spanish flu. Wonder if the young Uns of today would of had a different mentality if they were as at risk as the elderly and those with underlying medical problems.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Blair is a polarising figure, but the subtext of what he is saying is important. The clock is running, and this new strain effectively means that our opponent the virus has got a speed boost, and even with currently supply promises, it will be June before they get into the over 50 group. Estimates for the cost in lives and admissions in the meantime must have just gone up. One shot is a more reliable population approach.
		
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Ethan I understand one vaccine is quicker than 2, but from a development point of view, why was 2 vaccines the preferred route, an easier route, the quicker to develop route. 🤔


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## User62651 (Dec 23, 2020)

Saw Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall in Oban earlier. Probably heading for Tiree (has a place there).
Had a feeling that is pretty selfish behaviour, he resides Winchester I believe. Heading from Tier 3 soon to be Tier 4 (lockdown) England to Tier 1 and a remote island in Scotland.
Views?


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Saw Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall in Oban earlier. Probably heading for Tiree (has a place there).
Had a feeling that is pretty selfish behaviour, he resides Winchester I believe. Heading from Tier 3 soon to be Tier 4 (lockdown) England to Tier 1 and a remote island in Scotland.
Views?
		
Click to expand...

I thought the border was shut.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Blair is a polarising figure, but the subtext of what he is saying is important. The clock is running, and this new strain effectively means that our opponent the virus has got a speed boost, and even with currently supply promises, it will be June before they get into the over 50 group. Estimates for the cost in lives and admissions in the meantime must have just gone up. One shot is a more reliable population approach.
		
Click to expand...

I've read a few differing views of what protection a single dose would give. One said around 90% with a second moving to 95%, the other suggested something like 70% moving to 95%.   If it's 90% with the first dose then it's a no brainer to do it.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've read a few differing views of what protection a single dose would give. One said around 90% with a second moving to 95%, the other suggested something like 70% moving to 95%.   If it's 90% with the first dose then it's a no brained to do it.
		
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It depends how you measure it. Some of the data is reported as protection over the first X weeks, others as protection at X weeks. The first one is always going to be lower than the second. I think there is a growing view that a couple of weeks after you get the first jab, you are pretty well protected. To that extent, then giving the second dose to the same person then is less useful to society than giving it so someone else.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Picked up my click and collect today 

All present and correct

Almost like the papers wanted to promote panic and fear


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## IanM (Dec 23, 2020)

We got ours.  No substitutions or gaps.  In and out of car park in about 10 mins max.  Haven't been inside a supermarket in about 2 years


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I've read a few differing views of what protection a single dose would give. One said around 90% with a second moving to 95%, the other suggested something like 70% moving to 95%.   If it's 90% with the first dose then it's a no brainer to do it.
		
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If it’s was a no brainier wouldn’t the manufacturer have recommended this and had the relevant authorities authorise it as a single dose followed by a second dose months down the line.

Now were all vaccine advisors I thought it’s was 50% on one of the offers.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

IanM said:



			We got ours.  No substitutions or gaps.  In and out of car park in about 10 mins max.  Haven't been inside a supermarket in about 2 years
		
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MIL lives just outside of Dover as was supposed to go in today to pick up her order. Town as always when the French play their tricks completely gridlocked and no way in. The truckies have always, on purpose, blocked every road and roundabout as a form of protest and nothing moves, so along with no visit, no Christmas goodies.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			If it’s was a no brainier wouldn’t the manufacturer have recommended this and had the relevant authorities authorise it as a single dose followed by a second dose months down the line.

Now were all vaccine advisors I thought it’s was 50% on one of the offers.
		
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I suggested it would be a no brainer if a single dose gave 90% protection.  I didn't suggest it did but read an article in the BBC News saying this:

His proposal was backed up by Professor David Salisbury, the man in charge of immunisation at the Department of Health until 2013.

He told Today the numbers were "straightforward".

"You give one dose you get 91% [protection] you give two doses and you get 95% - you are only gaining 4% for giving the second dose," he said.

"With current circumstances, I would strongly urge you to use as many first doses as you possibly can for risk groups and only after you have done all of that come back with second doses."


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

IanM said:



			We got ours.  No substitutions or gaps.  In and out of car park in about 10 mins max.  Haven't been inside a supermarket in about 2 years
		
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Had s couple subs but some were better things lol

Could only get one mince pie packs but was because they gave every one a free one!

Haven't been in a super market since covid really


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## Papas1982 (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			MIL lives just outside of Dover as was supposed to go in today to pick up her order. Town as always when the French play their tricks completely gridlocked and no way in. The truckies have always, on purpose, blocked every road and roundabout as a form of protest and nothing moves, so along with no visit, no Christmas goodies.
		
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Not sure where she lives fella. But there are always ways in. I was at tesco in Dover this afternoon after golf and got there with no delays.

I agree the truckies get up to mischief, but having worked in freight for the last decade. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've actually been stuck in the traffic getting to the docs. It always takes the police a few hours to sort it. But by afternoon it's doable.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

Papas1982 said:



			Not sure where she lives fella. But there are always ways in. I was at tesco in Dover this afternoon after golf and got there with no delays.

I agree the truckies get up to mischief, but having worked in freight for the last decade. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've actually been stuck in the traffic getting to the docs. It always takes the police a few hours to sort it. But by afternoon it's doable.
		
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She has to rely on the bus and no buses turned up, at 83 and not a driver she is reliant on the buses unfortunately. Hopefully daughter no two will get across from Wingham at some time.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			She has to rely on the bus and no buses turned up, at 83 and not a driver she is reliant on the buses unfortunately. Hopefully daughter no two will get across from Wingham at some time.
		
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Yeah that’ll make things worse! The back route from wingham is generally clear. It’s how I get around that park of Kent most of the time tbh. 

I’d imagine the ports will be sorted after Xmas. Til brexit  at least 😂😂


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## User62651 (Dec 23, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I thought the border was shut.
		
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So did I, or maybe it's from 26th, think travel for work is an exception now but won't be from 26th, can't keep up.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2020)

Had to dive into Sainsbury's on the way home as HID had forgotten salad cream. lemons (why??) and nuts. Given it was 4.00pm it wasn't too bad and the fruit and veg aisles fully stocked. Still very busy and no concept of social distancing but all done. HID had a classic this morning getting the turkey. Had to wait and so went to pick up a few veggie bits. There was a woman with 8 bags of large carrots in her bag. A man who clearly wanted carrots asked her what she was going to do with all those carrots. After some back chat and the guy asking several times she said she was taking them all home to blanche them and freeze them. Why asked the gentleman. Without any thought of irony and straight faced she said "haven't you heard, there is going to be a food shortage" and went barging off down the aisle. Unbelievable Jeff. You can't legislate for stupidity like that


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## Slime (Dec 23, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



*Had to dive into Sainsbury's on the way home as HID had forgotten salad cream. lemons (why??) and nuts.* Given it was 4.00pm it wasn't too bad and the fruit and veg aisles fully stocked. Still very busy and no concept of social distancing but all done. HID had a classic this morning getting the turkey. Had to wait and so went to pick up a few veggie bits. There was a woman with 8 bags of large carrots in her bag. A man who clearly wanted carrots asked her what she was going to do with all those carrots. After some back chat and the guy asking several times she said she was taking them all home to blanche them and freeze them. Why asked the gentleman. Without any thought of irony and straight faced she said "haven't you heard, there is going to be a food shortage" and went barging off down the aisle. Unbelievable Jeff. You can't legislate for stupidity like that
		
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I thought shopping for purely non-essential items was heavily frowned upon, or did I get that wrong?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			I thought shopping for purely non-essential items was heavily frowned upon, or did I get that wrong?
		
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If it’s for Missis Homer, it’s not essential. It’s life or death..... Homers 🤔😁


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			I thought shopping for purely non-essential items was heavily frowned upon, or did I get that wrong?
		
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Salad cream essential as the Luftwaffe are flying in lettuce and salad leaves, lemon is to go with Bacardi obviously.


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			I thought shopping for purely non-essential items was heavily frowned upon, or did I get that wrong?
		
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They may have been essential given time of year. I went shopping today for goose fat, chestnuts and cloves. Hardly essential however it was what I had left on my list that I hadn’t managed so far. On that note if anyone can send me a small envelope of cloves it’d be appreciated.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			I thought shopping for purely non-essential items was heavily frowned upon, or did I get that wrong?
		
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And herein lies the problem. Is an avocado essential? Probably not for me or you but for some hipster that wants it mashed on toast then it might be. 

And that's before you get me started on the Waitrose "Essential" range of products. 

Essential double cream. 

Essential aubergines. 

Essential gooseberry fool. 

Essential Parmigiano Reggiano <---- because Tarquin absolutely won't eat his pasta bolognaise without grated parmesan.

Essential carbonated natural mineral water  <--- how the **** is bottled water essential. It comes out of the ****ing tap. Yes it might not be carbonated or natural mineral water but it's good enough to drink and survive.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			If it’s for Missis Homer, it’s not essential. It’s life or death..... Homers 🤔😁
		
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You tell her you're not going to pick them up. Braver than me


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2020)

Slime said:



			I thought shopping for purely non-essential items was heavily frowned upon, or did I get that wrong?
		
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Can we not start this rubbish again much like the first lockdown 

If it's for food. It's a fine trip.

Exercise fine

Work fine

Job done


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## Crazyface (Dec 23, 2020)

You might not want to read this but to-date, the people I have spoken to are going to ignore all advice and do what they were going to do anyway, and that was before the latest load of tosh. Why was social distancing and face masks not enforced at the train station in London? They have cause the latest panic yet no one bothers to enforce restrictions on them then we let them roam the country spreading the virus everywhere.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 23, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			You might not want to read this but to-date, the people I have spoken to are going to ignore all advice and do what they were going to do anyway, and that was before the latest load of tosh. Why was social distancing and face masks not enforced at the train station in London? *They have cause the latest panic* yet no one bothers to enforce restrictions on them then we let them roam the country spreading the virus everywhere.
		
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Surely those actions won't show up in the figures for a week/10 days/14 days. Loads of 2nd home owners from London heading up to Norfolk and Suffolk for the Xmas period but they don't account for the increase in cases we've been seeing in these areas for the last couple of weeks.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 23, 2020)

As per PJ87, "essential" has nothing much to do with things  - at least from the shopper's point of view. If the business is permitted to be open, its perfectly fine to shop there - regardless of whether you or I think the item eventually bought is "essential" .


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## backwoodsman (Dec 23, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely those actions won't show up in the figures for a week/10 days/14 days. Loads of 2nd home owners from London heading up to Norfolk and Suffolk for the Xmas period but they don't account for the increase in cases we've been seeing in these areas for the last couple of weeks.
		
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Funny how people can interpret things differently. One view might be that the mass departure was Londoners decamping to 2nd homes for Christmas. Another view might be that it was non-Londoners escaping to their families back home for Christmas?  Who knows what was the right interpretation?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 23, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Funny how people can interpret things differently. One view might be that the mass departure was Londoners decamping to 2nd homes for Christmas. Another view might be that it was non-Londoners escaping to their families back home for Christmas?  Who knows what was the right interpretation?
		
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I'm not suggesting that most of those pictured at the stations were escaping London to head to their 2nd homes in rural England, just that some of them might have been. The majority of those that can afford to have a 2nd home in Norfolk or Suffolk would have been loading up their Range Rovers and driving up the A12 or M11/A11 to get there. The fact remains that 100's/1000's of people have seen that London was about to be placed into Tier 4 and have selfishly decided that they are going to leave for what was at that time a lower tier area. They have decided that they are willing to take the risk of spreading the virus to outlying areas.


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## IanM (Dec 24, 2020)

The packed trains were ordinary Joe's going home.  
The 2nd home owners wouldn't be with the masses on the trains   

Highpothetically, if I've been in my house here and not mixed, getting in my car and going to sit in my holiday home, and not mixing isnt going to spread any germs!

Falls foul of the unnecessary travel though 😒


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## bobmac (Dec 24, 2020)

39,237 new cases yesterday.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			39,237 new cases yesterday.
		
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What I really don’t understand Bob is we now have cases that have surpassed anything during the first lockdown ( yes we are testing) we also have deaths that are as bad as the first lockdown. We now have new Covid strains that are now worse than the original. And there’s no lockdown.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			What I really don’t understand Bob is we now have cases that have surpassed anything during the first lockdown ( yes we are testing) we also have deaths that are as bad as the first lockdown. We now have new Covid strains that are now worse than the original. And there’s no lockdown.
		
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Almost seems like wearing masks, social distancing, washing your hands to they are raw 10 times a day, slathering your hands with sanitizer, circuit breaks, more tiers than a wedding cake and various other lockdowns has absolutely no effect in the spread at all?
And whilst we flush our economy down the toilet it’s street parties in Wuhan and the Chinese economy is booming! 🤔


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## DanFST (Dec 24, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			And whilst we flush our economy down the toilet it’s street parties in Wuhan and the Chinese economy is booming! 🤔
		
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I'm glad we aren't modelling ourself on China. Horrible treatment of it's people.


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## bobmac (Dec 24, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			What I really don’t understand Bob is we now have cases that have surpassed anything during the first lockdown ( yes we are testing) we also have deaths that are as bad as the first lockdown. We now have new Covid strains that are now worse than the original. And there’s no lockdown.
		
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What I don't understand is why they are delaying the go ahead of the Oxford vaccine until next week.


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I suggested it would be a no brainer if a single dose gave 90% protection.  I didn't suggest it did but read an article in the BBC News saying this:

His proposal was backed up by Professor David Salisbury, the man in charge of immunisation at the Department of Health until 2013.

He told Today the numbers were "straightforward".

"You give one dose you get 91% [protection] you give two doses and you get 95% - you are only gaining 4% for giving the second dose," he said.

"With current circumstances, I would strongly urge you to use as many first doses as you possibly can for risk groups and only after you have done all of that come back with second doses."
		
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He is right. Most of the benefit comes from the first one. The incremental benefit of the second is small. In all likelihood, the first one also modulates the severity of any Covid that breaks through. Better to give a large quantum of benefit to someone else, and then once the country is done, look at a booster for everyone on a more relaxed basis.


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What I don't understand is why they are delaying the go ahead of the Oxford vaccine until next week.  

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I think they are still sorting out this low dose-high dose vs high dose-high dose question.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think they are still sorting out this low dose-high dose vs high dose-high dose question.
		
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Is it that way round? If it were high dose-high dose, or high dose-low dose, they could give the high dose( as in your previous post ) and sort out whether to follow later with high or low?

Or is that too simple?


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Is it that way round? If it were high dose-high dose, or high dose-low dose, they could give the high dose( as in your previous post ) and sort out whether to follow later with high or low?

Or is that too simple?
		
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The interim data showed that the low dose-high dose combination was more effective. The vaccine is constructed from the genetic sequence/blueprint for the Covid spike protein inserted into a harmless adenovirus, and some have theorised that when given in low dose it stimulates a lower immune response to the adenovirus, so the patient is able to response better to the subsequent booster. However, the data set for this combo was not huge, as it was a side question (with some serendipitous additional patents) to the main high dose-high dose question. So the MHRA is really mainly reviewing the high dose-high dose version, despite the fact that many now think the low-high combo would be preferable. It would make the scarce resource go a bit further, for a start.

Interestingly, the Russian vaccine makers also identified the same problem that Oxford may have partly intentionally, partly serendipitously also identified, and they approach the immunogenicity of the adenovirus by using different strains for the primary and the booster, thus swerving any immune response triggered by the primary.


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## Billysboots (Dec 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think they are still sorting out this low dose-high dose vs high dose-high dose question.
		
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I’d also read/heard that they were waiting on the data from US trials.


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’d also read/heard that they were waiting on the data from US trials.
		
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The trial data previously announced was interim data, that is data from a pre-planned analysis part way through, so final data was still due and should be in now.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The interim data showed that the low dose-high dose combination was more effective. The vaccine is constructed from the genetic sequence/blueprint for the Covid spike protein inserted into a harmless adenovirus, and some have theorised that when given in low dose it stimulates a lower immune response to the adenovirus, so the patient is able to response better to the subsequent booster. However, the data set for this combo was not huge, as it was a side question (with some serendipitous additional patents) to the main high dose-high dose question. So the MHRA is really mainly reviewing the high dose-high dose version, despite the fact that many now think the low-high combo would be preferable. It would make the scarce resource go a bit further, for a start.

Interestingly, the Russian vaccine makers also identified the same problem that Oxford may have partly intentionally, partly serendipitously also identified, and they approach the immunogenicity of the adenovirus by using different strains for the primary and the booster, thus swerving any immune response triggered by the primary.
		
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Thanks for that explanation. Completely answers my query.
Genuinely, Lord knows what we'd be speculating on if you weren't here to answer these techy thoughts of ours.😀


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## SteveW86 (Dec 27, 2020)

Well COVID has now reached our household.

An outbreak at my wife’s school right at the end of the term led to several teaching testing positive on Wed/thurs/friday, so we both went for a test on Friday. The results came back negative for both. Neither of us were showing symptoms so we thought we had escaped. A couple of other teachers who tested negative had started showing symptoms by Christmas Eve, so had a test again and came out positive. The wife and I were still showing no symptoms, but she is a very anxious person so went for another test on Christmas Day. Yesterday evening, the wife gets a call from one of her colleagues and is informed that one of the staff has passed away due to COVID, I believe she was in her 60’s but not considered vulnerable. In the early hours of this morning, the wife got her results back as positive but still showing no symptoms.


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## Imurg (Dec 27, 2020)

Really feeling the misery for a mate of mine.
He got pinged by T&T in mid December so had to isolate for 10 days.
2 days out of that and his Mrs wakes up with a raging temperature 
She gets tested but doesn't hear anything so they chase.
It seems they've lost the swab somewhere
So it's either back for another test or stay put untill Thursday....she's on the mend so it may not even have been Covid but its wrecked any chance of him playing golf..


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## Tashyboy (Dec 27, 2020)

SteveW86 said:



			Well COVID has now reached our household.

An outbreak at my wife’s school right at the end of the term led to several teaching testing positive on Wed/thurs/friday, so we both went for a test on Friday. The results came back negative for both. Neither of us were showing symptoms so we thought we had escaped. A couple of other teachers who tested negative had started showing symptoms by Christmas Eve, so had a test again and came out positive. The wife and I were still showing no symptoms, but she is a very anxious person so went for another test on Christmas Day. Yesterday evening, the wife gets a call from one of her colleagues and is informed that one of the staff has passed away due to COVID, I believe she was in her 60’s but not considered vulnerable. In the early hours of this morning, the wife got her results back as positive but still showing no symptoms.
		
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Strange how we know the Covids out there, but don’t really feel it’s effects until it hits close to home, someone we love. Then it’s like a hammer blow. Gutted for your wife’s mate. The knock on effect at the school will be massive.

Taking lad for a covid test in 10 mins.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 27, 2020)

Would be nice if just occasionally the ‘Blair haters’ might acknowledge he may have a point; might even be correct and worth listening to.

Meanwhile I can breath a sigh of relief and give thanks that our PM has managed to secure a deal with the EU given the significant economic and social challenges the pandemic is going to present to the country in 2021 and the coming years.  And so for that...well done PM. That agreement was desperately needed.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Would be nice if just occasionally the ‘Blair haters’ might acknowledge he may have a point; might even be correct and worth listening to.

Meanwhile I can breath a sigh of relief and give thanks that our PM has managed to secure a deal with the EU given the significant economic and social challenges the pandemic is going to present to the country in 2021 and the coming years.  And so for that...well done PM. That agreement was desperately needed.
		
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Apparently the current gov have highlighted those 15 million that need a vaccine to remove need for lockdowns as with them vaccinated the NHS wouldn't reach full levels if it hit general population

Oxford vaccine approval Monday with roll out from the 4th they said 2 million a week 

Lockdowns no longer needed by end of Feb 

If they achieve that fair enough sceptical


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## Tashyboy (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently the current gov have highlighted those 15 million that need a vaccine to remove need for lockdowns as with them vaccinated the NHS wouldn't reach full levels if it hit general population

Oxford vaccine approval Monday with roll out from the 4th they said 2 million a week

Lockdowns no longer needed by end of Feb

If they achieve that fair enough sceptical
		
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What I do find odd ( unless Ave not seen it anywhere) is how many per day are being vaccinated. Throughout this Covid we have been wined and dined on a daily basis re facts and figures. There has been countless arguments and discussions re these figures. Most of which have been Grim. I read this morning that almost a million vaccinations have been done and that for me is brilliant. A daily update re numbers vaccinated could be a real “ shot in the arm” 😉 and positive news that folk are desperate for. 
That said, these next 8 weeks are Imperative. The scales are finely balanced re the vaccinations and the new strain of Covid. The vaccinations will not be given any quicker. Whether the village idiots pay any attention to the lockdown rules to stop the spread is anyone’s guess.

#stay safe.


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## Old Skier (Dec 27, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently the current gov have highlighted those 15 million that need a vaccine to remove need for lockdowns as with them vaccinated the NHS wouldn't reach full levels if it hit general population

Oxford vaccine approval Monday with roll out from the 4th they said 2 million a week

Lockdowns no longer needed by end of Feb

If they achieve that fair enough sceptical
		
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We were due to set up today ready for the Oxford jabs tomorrow, another delay and no further dates given. Keep putting this back, wonder what the issues are.


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We were due to set up today ready for the Oxford jabs tomorrow, another delay and no further dates given. Keep putting this back, wonder what the issues are.
		
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Well, it isn't approved yet and it is impossible to predict with certainty what date it will be approved. If it doesn't get the nod in the next week or so, the UK vaccination plan stalls completely because there isn't much Pfizer floating around, and even some concern that there hasn't been enough set aside for second jabs for those who got their first jabs. The Johnson and Johnson vacc (broadly similar to the Oxford) is likely to get approved late Jan-early Feb, and they have the manufacturing scale to make quite a bit, so that will kick in relatively soon and could be vital. 

I am also reading a lot of unhappiness on doctors.net that NHS prioritisation is up the left in some places, with young back-office admin and IT staff getting it before frontline middle aged doctors and nurses.


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## Old Skier (Dec 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, it isn't approved yet and it is impossible to predict with certainty what date it will be approved. If it doesn't get the nod in the next week or so, the UK vaccination plan stalls completely because there isn't much Pfizer floating around, and even some concern that there hasn't been enough set aside for second jabs for those who got their first jabs. The Johnson and Johnson vacc (broadly similar to the Oxford) is likely to get approved late Jan-early Feb, and they have the manufacturing scale to make quite a bit, so that will kick in relatively soon and could be vital.

I am also reading a lot of unhappiness on doctors.net that NHS prioritisation is up the left in some places, with young back-office admin and IT staff getting it before frontline middle aged doctors and nurses.
		
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Been cases in S Devon were people hadn’t turned up so those in charge have just grabbed staff, any staff to maximize the use of the vaccine.


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Been cases in S Devon were people hadn’t turned up so those in charge have just grabbed staff, any staff to maximize the use of the vaccine.
		
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And they are right to do so. Better to give it to someone/anyone than waste it. I know a few people who got calls in the evening telling them if they can get to the vaccination site in the next 10 or 15 mins they can have a shot that otherwise will be going down the drain.


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## larmen (Dec 27, 2020)

Ethan said:



			And they are right to do so. Better to give it to someone/anyone than waste it. I know a few people who got calls in the evening telling them if they can get to the vaccination site in the next 10 or 15 mins they can have a shot that otherwise will be going down the drain.
		
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Will this be different with Oxford which needs a less strict cooling regime?


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## drdel (Dec 27, 2020)

So the reports suggest that the new strains affect kids. Do they mean a higher propensity to be infected or experience a more severe/dangerous illness,  or both.

Reports and claims we should shut schools seem to emphasise teenagers but does it behave the same with under 12s etc.


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## Backache (Dec 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			So the reports suggest that the new strains affect kids. Do they mean a higher propensity to be infected or experience a more severe/dangerous illness,  or both.

Reports and claims we should shut schools seem to emphasise teenagers but does it behave the same with under 12s etc.
		
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I don't think there is any evidence that it is more severe in anybody at any age at the moment. 
The only study that I read didn't really suggest that it had any differential in infectivity at different ages compared with the original Covid (that is to say it was increased in everyone but not more so in a particular group) but said it was possible.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 27, 2020)

My ex wife is scheduled to get the Covid vaccination next week


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## williamalex1 (Dec 27, 2020)

SteveW86 said:



			Well COVID has now reached our household.

An outbreak at my wife’s school right at the end of the term led to several teaching testing positive on Wed/thurs/friday, so we both went for a test on Friday. The results came back negative for both. Neither of us were showing symptoms so we thought we had escaped. A couple of other teachers who tested negative had started showing symptoms by Christmas Eve, so had a test again and came out positive. The wife and I were still showing no symptoms, but she is a very anxious person so went for another test on Christmas Day. Yesterday evening, the wife gets a call from one of her colleagues and is informed that one of the staff has passed away due to COVID, I believe she was in her 60’s but not considered vulnerable. In the early hours of this morning, the wife got her results back as positive but still showing no symptoms.
		
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My ex wife tested positive 3/4 weeks ago but never developed any symptoms  her next test was clear.
 She's 77 and in a care home suffering advanced dementia,  her Covid vaccination is expected next week. Take care Steve


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## SteveW86 (Dec 27, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			My ex wife tested positive 3/4 weeks ago but never developed any symptoms  her next test was clear.
She's 77 and in a care home suffering advanced dementia,  her Covid vaccination is expected next week. Take care Steve 

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How long between the tests was there. It’s a bit of a strange situation, as if she didn’t have the second test to ease her anxiety after her colleague passed away she would be allowed out tomorrow potentially passing it onto other people.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 27, 2020)

SteveW86 said:



			How long between the tests was there. It’s a bit of a strange situation, as if she didn’t have the second test to ease her anxiety after her colleague passed away she would be allowed out tomorrow potentially passing it onto other people.
		
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According to my daughter it was 2 weeks between tests.


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2020)

larmen said:



			Will this be different with Oxford which needs a less strict cooling regime?
		
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Yes, it probably will. The Pfizer vacc comes in vials and 5 doses can be drawn from one vial (in fact up to 7 could, but there is an allowance for wastage) so if that vial is not fully used, whatever is left has to be junked. I don't know what the final AZ product looks like, may be packed in individual doses.


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## larmen (Dec 27, 2020)

I always wondered about the vials, and it seemed like a lot more vaccine than needed for 1 shot. Didn’t even think about them vaccinating more than 1 person from the same vial.
I guess once broken into a vile you need to get your 5 shots done ASAP, and if necessary pulling in back office staff. Once they are done it’s random people of the street? Going to hang out outside the GP for a while ;-)


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## 4LEX (Dec 27, 2020)

I had a negative test, then positive, then negative and a month after paid for a private antibody test only for it to come back negative   Work that out.

I know I had it because I was unwell with symptoms and only after I recovered, did I find out someone I was in very close contact with had it 3 days before I felt ill. I recovered after 4-5 days but a few weeks later I went from running 5-10k a day to being too tired to leave the house and slept 14+ hours a night. That lasted around 10 days but back to 100% minus the Christmas bingefest!

Is there any further update on whether those who have had the vaccine are still capable of spreading it?


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2020)

larmen said:



			I always wondered about the vials, and it seemed like a lot more vaccine than needed for 1 shot. Didn’t even think about them vaccinating more than 1 person from the same vial.
I guess once broken into a vile you need to get your 5 shots done ASAP, and if necessary pulling in back office staff. Once they are done it’s random people of the street? Going to hang out outside the GP for a while ;-)
		
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Well, that isn't a terrible idea. If you lurk around a vaccination centre, there is a decent chance there will be some left over. Probably worth politely registering your interest so they know you are there. Something like "Hi, I realise this is awfully cheeky, but if you have any vaccine left over, I would love to have it rather than see it thrown away. I have no allergies. I'll be [somewhere nearby and convenient]. I understand if it isn't possible. Thanks".


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2020)

So yesterday I took young lad Tash for a Covid test, it’s come back positive, this morning Missis T is being escorted by myself for a test. At the moment I feel fine. Apart from when I think of the golf al be missing. 😣
On a positive, me pal in Italy who is in ICU is getting stronger by the day. Looks like he is gonna pull through..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 28, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			So yesterday I took young lad Tash for a Covid test, it’s come back positive, this morning Missis T is being escorted by myself for a test. At the moment I feel fine. Apart from when I think of the golf al be missing. 😣
On a positive, me pal in Italy who is in ICU is getting stronger by the day. Looks like he is gonna pull through..
		
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Good news on your mate Tash, one observation/question though, if your lad was positive you aren’t allowed out to escort Missis T surely?


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2020)

My lad started to develop mild symptoms on Boxing Day. I went online about 6.30pm, booked a test for 9am yesterday and the result has come back negative, all within 36 hours of booking the appointment.

Pretty impressive effort by all concerned to get the process this efficient.


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## DanFST (Dec 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			My lad started to develop mild symptoms on Boxing Day. I went online about 6.30pm, booked a test for 9am yesterday and the result has come back negative, all within 36 hours of booking the appointment.

Pretty impressive effort by all concerned to get the process this efficient.
		
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Good for your boy. 

I did get annoyed by all the "journalists" complaining about testing numbers, every person I know that has needed one, has got one sharpish with minimal fuss. It's about the only thing thats gone well.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 28, 2020)

SteveW86 said:



			Well COVID has now reached our household.

An outbreak at my wife’s school right at the end of the term led to several teaching testing positive on Wed/thurs/friday, so we both went for a test on Friday. The results came back negative for both. Neither of us were showing symptoms so we thought we had escaped. A couple of other teachers who tested negative had started showing symptoms by Christmas Eve, so had a test again and came out positive. The wife and I were still showing no symptoms, but she is a very anxious person so went for another test on Christmas Day. Yesterday evening, the wife gets a call from one of her colleagues and is informed that one of the staff has passed away due to COVID, I believe she was in her 60’s but not considered vulnerable. In the early hours of this morning, the wife got her results back as positive but still showing no symptoms.
		
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My 4 year old granddaughter tested positive 9 days ago. My son and daughter in law have had minor symptoms, along with my 2 week old grandson. They did tests before Christmas but haven't had any results back yet. All getting by at the moment but grandson needs to start feeding properly.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			........I am also reading a lot of unhappiness on doctors.net that NHS prioritisation is up the left in some places, with young back-office admin and IT staff getting it before frontline middle aged doctors and nurses.
		
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My wife works in the breast cancer clinic at our local hospital. She deals with many patients directly on a daily basis. When she was told to book an appointment for the vaccine last week there were no appointments left, but somehow all the back office staff had been able to book appointments.


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## Ethan (Dec 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Good for your boy.

I did get annoyed by all the "journalists" complaining about testing numbers, every person I know that has needed one, has got one sharpish with minimal fuss. It's about the only thing thats gone well.
		
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There are some legitimate complaints about testing. These include whether it was necessary to hire an eye-waveringly expensive private company to do it and the lack of clarity on how many actual people are being tested - the data presented includes multiple tests on the same people and tests for a variety of purposes. It is also not so long since people were being offered tests hundreds of miles away. It has taken rather a long time to get to a decent level of service, although the data remains opaque.


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## Ethan (Dec 28, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			My wife works in the breast cancer clinic at our local hospital. She deals with many patients directly on a daily basis. When she was told to book an appointment for the vaccine last week there were no appointments left, but somehow all the back office staff had been able to book appointments.
		
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Sadly, that appears to have been a common experience.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Good news on your mate Tash, one observation/question though, if your lad was positive you aren’t allowed out to escort Missis T surely?
		
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I took lad to testing centre yesterday. He lives with us. As a class 1 lorry driver, last week he was in Kent,Essex and Wales..lovely royal flush there.
Anyway he has had 3 days away from.work and seen no one apart from daughter..
Me at the moment I feel fine and at the roll up centre you/ me stays in the car whilst missing T and lad walk into centre so you don't see or  come into contact with anyone.
Quite a good set up i think.


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## Ethan (Dec 28, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I took lad to testing centre yesterday. He lives with us. As a class 1 lorry driver, last week he was in Kent,Essex and Wales..lovely royal flush there.
Anyway he has had 3 days away from.work and seen no one apart from daughter..
Me at the moment I feel fine and at the roll up centre you/ me stays in the car whilst missing T and lad walk into centre so you don't see or  come into contact with anyone.
Quite a good set up i think.
		
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The user experience appears to have improved. What is also needed is that the results are then channeled into the tracing system, the cases called and contacts identified and likewise contacted. It appears there is a large attrition along the steps of the process.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The user experience appears to have improved. What is also needed is that the results are then channeled into the tracing system, the cases called and contacts identified and likewise contacted. It appears there is a large attrition along the steps of the process.
		
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I took lad for a test a few months ago and it seemed a bit like it wasn’t being took serious. The last two days I have been 10/10. Now Missis T has just filled in the form to say who she has been in contact with. 6 people in just short of a week inc me and lad. Now if someone is not taking this lockdown serious lord knows how many people this Covid could be passed onto.
As a side note, Missis T said from day one that she is not having her parents over for Christmas. A , coz there not in our bubble, and B,Lad is a lorry driver and daughter a copper so the risk to them catching Covid and passing it on to us was always there. It did not go down well with a member of her family who had For them Xmas day and they stayed overnight. ( don’t start me off on that one) Missis Ts worst case scenario has come true.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 28, 2020)

We have done the drive through tests at the airport. Drive up, tester sticks the swaps through the window into our mouth/nose then we drive away. No longer than 5 mins both times we have been.

Interestingly our next door neighbour got pinged on track and trace when my wife’s test came back positive, we could only think that the phones were 2 metres apart, albeit though the adjoining wall.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 28, 2020)

SteveW86 said:



			We have done the drive through tests at the airport. Drive up, tester sticks the swaps through the window into our mouth/nose then we drive away. No longer than 5 mins both times we have been.

Interestingly our next door neighbour got pinged on track and trace when my wife’s test came back positive, we could only think that the phones were 2 metres apart, albeit though the adjoining wall.
		
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That exact thing happened to  mate of mine and his wife, next door neighbour tested positive and their phones linked through the wall so they voth got a 14 day isolation. The ironic thing is they don't even like the neighbour😂


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## DanFST (Dec 28, 2020)

Zhang Zhan, Journalist who originally reported on the outbreak in China has been jailed for "provoking trouble" 

Who was it on here that said I was brainwashed by the media because I never wanted to step foot in China ever again?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2020)

DanFST said:



			Zhang Zhan, Journalist who originally reported on the outbreak in China has been jailed for "provoking trouble"

Who was it on here that said I was brainwashed by the media because I never wanted to step foot in China ever again?
		
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Certainly was not me coz am in your gang, China can shove it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 28, 2020)

The clown of a head teacher at the school my G/F works at decided it would be a good idea to have an Xmas lunch the day before end of term. 350 people in one hall, now 5 teachers have tested positive 🙄


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The clown of a head teacher at the school my G/F works at decided it would be a good idea to have an Xmas lunch the day before end of term. 350 people in one hall, now 5 teachers have tested positive 🙄
		
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What?! Has the pandemic passed this imbecile by?

I would go as far as to say that is borderline gross misconduct. Staggering.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The clown of a head teacher at the school my G/F works at decided it would be a good idea to have an Xmas lunch the day before end of term. 350 people in one hall, now 5 teachers have tested positive 🙄
		
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The headmistress of the independent school HID works at held a Christmas dinner for the staff on the 22nd. HID ducked out. We were tier 3 at the time but madness to have everyone together. At least those that were infectious and those that got infected should have isolated (but is there any guarantee) and be clear before school resumes


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 28, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			What?! Has the pandemic passed this imbecile by?

I would go as far as to say that is borderline gross misconduct. Staggering.
		
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Einstein was right.


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## Imurg (Dec 28, 2020)

Apparently there are now more Covid patients in English hospitals than at the peak of the 1st wave in April.


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## ExRabbit (Dec 28, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The clown of a head teacher at the school my G/F works at decided it would be a good idea to have an Xmas lunch the day before end of term. 350 people in one hall, now 5 teachers have tested positive 🙄
		
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Why would you consider going? Peer pressure or just similar stupidity as displayed by the clown at the top?


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## ExRabbit (Dec 29, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Apparently there are now more Covid patients in English hospitals than at the peak of the 1st wave in April.
		
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Not surprising given how people have been behaving the last few months. It is starting to make us sick when the politicians and the experts keep thanking everyone for following the guidelines when we know that so many are not.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 29, 2020)

ExRabbit said:



			Why would you consider going? Peer pressure or just similar stupidity as displayed by the clown at the top?
		
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Clearly stupidity. I'd be worried about sending my kids to that school if there is a mass of teaching staff that devoid of common sense. 
The other answer is there is no insentive for them no to go! If they go an end up having to isolate they get 2 weeks off on full pay.


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

With the flurry of news reports of the "UK/England/London virus" strain being identified in various different countries they all seem to be mentioning individual recently travelled from UK/London.
If only someone had mentioned in the last 9 months that the virus can't move about by itself 😐🤨


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## SteveW86 (Dec 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The clown of a head teacher at the school my G/F works at decided it would be a good idea to have an Xmas lunch the day before end of term. 350 people in one hall, now 5 teachers have tested positive 🙄
		
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I imagine you don’t want to say which school, but the school my wife works at has a similar situation with over 20 staff testing positive since the 18th.


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## SteveJay (Dec 29, 2020)

I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. If that is correct, and I can't confirm that, it does add some perspective.

I am in no way playing down the severity of the pandemic, or advocating that the restrictions are unnecessary, but I was staggered by that number, apparently from  NHS data. Has anyone else seen it?  That might explain why so many seem unwilling to adhere to the guidance as they do not feel they are at (serious) risk.


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## IanM (Dec 29, 2020)

That's the thing about statistics... the survival rate amongst the "otherwise healthy" is massive... and that is used as an excuse to "go around as normal."

That doesn't mean hospitals don't have ambulances queuing round the block.   

We had a guy at out golf club "survived" after a lengthy period on a ventilator.   He said it was indescribable and several months later he isn't back to normal.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. If that is correct, and I can't confirm that, it does add some perspective.

I am in no way playing down the severity of the pandemic, or advocating that the restrictions are unnecessary, but I was staggered by that number, apparently from  NHS data. Has anyone else seen it?  That might explain why so many seem unwilling to adhere to the guidance as they do not feel they are at (serious) risk.
		
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That figure is for those aged Under 60 with no pre-existing health condition England, it was last updated as at 16th Dec on the NHS Website.

I agree it might explain why some selfish people maybe acting the way they are, but then I’d argue that maybe the way the information on Covid has been put across has been misleading or missed the point at times.

Edit: Info here.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. If that is correct, and I can't confirm that, it does add some perspective.

I am in no way playing down the severity of the pandemic, or advocating that the restrictions are unnecessary, but I was staggered by that number, apparently from  NHS data. Has anyone else seen it?  That might explain why so many seem unwilling to adhere to the guidance as they do not feel they are at (serious) risk.
		
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Not belittling your post, but we all know that the wildest things have been written during and  about Covid.
But do you really suppose that all those scenes in hospitals of patients unable to breathe etc, because of Covid, is because they have another health condition?
Reported recently , a group of teachers got Covid. One sadly died. Teaching one week, then very quickly ill.
Had the person got another condition, it's clear it wasn't that that suddenly accelerated and caused the death? It was because Covid entered the body.
That was the cause of death.
The bottom line is, surely, -If Covid had not come along, would you still be living your life as you were this time last year, broadly speaking.?


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## bluewolf (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. If that is correct, and I can't confirm that, it does add some perspective.

I am in no way playing down the severity of the pandemic, or advocating that the restrictions are unnecessary, but I was staggered by that number, apparently from  NHS data. Has anyone else seen it?  That might explain why so many seem unwilling to adhere to the guidance as they do not feel they are at (serious) risk.
		
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I believe that those pre-existing conditions include things like asthma and the one that I have - Bradycardia. It’s not going to kill me. COVID might. The people putting forward these arguments are being hugely dismissive of the deaths of 10’s of thousands of people and are doing it to forward an anti-lockdown agenda. 

There’s a special place in hell reserved for people like that 👍


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## bobmac (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid
		
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SteveJay said:



			I am in no way playing down the severity of the pandemic,
		
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I'm confused


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## Doon frae Troon (Dec 29, 2020)

On a cold frosty day, see how far your breath goes.
Well that is the range of someone with Covid.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. If that is correct, and I can't confirm that, it does add some perspective.

I am in no way playing down the severity of the pandemic, or advocating that the restrictions are unnecessary, but I was staggered by that number, apparently from  NHS data. Has anyone else seen it?  That might explain why so many seem unwilling to adhere to the guidance as they do not feel they are at (serious) risk.
		
Click to expand...

That is false and dangerous nonsense written (not by you, obvs) by someone who is either knowingly lying or utterly clueless about death certification. It is not NHS data, it is data wrongly interpreted from CDC data in the US and circulated by Covid deniers. Please don't circulate this [redacted].

The national figures for Covid deaths are done in a couple of ways. Initial figures are based on those who test positive and die within 28 days. it is true that many of those people have undelying conditions, but they are things like high blood pressure, diabetes, asthma etc, and the probability that they will die of one of those in the next 28 days is vanishingly small, for practical purposes, zero. It might surprise you that the actuarial probability that an average 80 year old will die in the next 28 days is less than 1%. 

Data is gathered this way because even if imperfect, it is consistent and therefore temporal trends can be tracked. If the definition of a related death changed, the data would become useless. In all likelihood, it is actually an underestimate because the number of people misclassified as dying of Covid when they didn't is almost certainly outweighed by the number who actually die from Covid after 28 days, e.g. after a lengthy ICU stay, or were never tested.

On the death certificate, Covid may be mentioned if part of the cause of death. If that death was due to the oft-cited hit by a bus, it won't be mentioned at all. If death is due to an inflammatory complication of Covid, it will, regardless of whether it is within 28 days or not.

If you had previous high blood pressure and then had a heart attack and died, did you die from a heart attack or high blood pressure? On the UK death certificate, heart attack (aka myocardial infarction) would be listed a a primary cause of death, and high blood pressure may be listed as a subsidiary cause, i.e it contributed to the chance of having a myocardial infarction.

And if you died from cancer because your treatment was interrupted because of Covid pressures, what is your cause of death?

It is patently ridiculous for anyone to suggest that there are only a few Covid deaths and the rest is just the usual normal stuff. The queue of ambulances, packed hospitals and broken front line staff will tell anyone who is not a Covid denier otherwise.


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## Imurg (Dec 29, 2020)

IanM said:



			That's the thing about statistics... the survival rate amongst the "otherwise healthy" is massive... and that is used as an excuse to "go around as normal."

That doesn't mean hospitals don't have ambulances queuing round the block.  

We had a guy at out golf club "survived" after a lengthy period on a ventilator.   He said it was indescribable and several months later he isn't back to normal.
		
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This is the point a lot of people are missing.
Hospitals are nearly full
They have large numbers of patients with Covid - some of these people are taking up space in ITUs
If you have a heart attack, stroke, major car crash or something else that requires ITU care....you ain't necessarily going to get it
Because there's a couple of dozen Covid patients already there - there's nowhere for you to go and the Hospital staff then have to start making decisions about who gets care and who doesn't or, to,put it another way, whk lives and who dies.
Lockdowns slow the flow of Covid into the hospital system so they have the ability to cope with the numbers AND those who need it from the list above.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

IanM said:



			That's the thing about statistics... the survival rate amongst the "otherwise healthy" is massive... and that is used as an excuse to "go around as normal."

That doesn't mean hospitals don't have ambulances queuing round the block.  

We had a guy at out golf club "survived" after a lengthy period on a ventilator.   He said it was indescribable and several months later he isn't back to normal.
		
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High rates of PTSD being reported after ICU and hospital stays for Covid.


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## bobmac (Dec 29, 2020)

Back in April, Dr Elisa Granato volunteered to take part in a Covid-19 vaccine trial, the first in Europe..
Reports soon followed that 2 days later, she died from the vaccine and four others were seriously ill. 
Firstly, only two people took part in the trial.

Secondly, Dr Elisa Granato confirmed several months later that the news of her death was premature.

https://theferret.scot/vaccine-trial-oxford-elisa-granato-fact-check/

The moral of the story is do your own research and check the facts the best you can before spreading/sharing misleading information.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is false and dangerous nonsense written (not by you, obvs) by someone who is either knowingly lying or utterly clueless about death certification. It is not NHS data, it is data wrongly interpreted from CDC data in the US and circulated by Covid deniers. Please don't circulate this [redacted].

The national figures for Covid deaths are done in a couple of ways. Initial figures are based on those who test positive and die within 28 days. it is true that many of those people have undelying conditions, but they are things like high blood pressure, diabetes, asthma etc, and the probability that they will die of one of those in the next 28 days is vanishingly small, for practical purposes, zero. It might surprise you that the actuarial probability that an average 80 year old will die in the next 28 days is less than 1%.

Data is gathered this way because even if imperfect, it is consistent and therefore temporal trends can be tracked. If the definition of a related death changed, the data would become useless. In all likelihood, it is actually an underestimate because the number of people misclassified as dying of Covid when they didn't is almost certainly outweighed by the number who actually die from Covid after 28 days, e.g. after a lengthy ICU stay, or were never tested.

On the death certificate, Covid may be mentioned if part of the cause of death. If that death was due to the oft-cited hit by a bus, it won't be mentioned at all. If death is due to an inflammatory complication of Covid, it will, regardless of whether it is within 28 days or not.

If you had previous high blood pressure and then had a heart attack and died, did you die from a heart attack or high blood pressure? On the UK death certificate, heart attack (aka myocardial infarction) would be listed a a primary cause of death, and high blood pressure may be listed as a subsidiary cause, i.e it contributed to the chance of having a myocardial infarction.

And if you died from cancer because your treatment was interrupted because of Covid pressures, what is your cause of death?

It is patently ridiculous for anyone to suggest that there are only a few Covid deaths and the rest is just the usual normal stuff. The queue of ambulances, packed hospitals and broken front line staff will tell anyone who is not a Covid denier otherwise.
		
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Sorry Ethan, but why do the NHS publish this weekly figure then?
This is the NHS England Official site giving this information out.
Yes, the interpratation can be lost or confusing but these are the figures the NHS is providing.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...nced-deaths-24-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx


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## DanFST (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is false and dangerous nonsense written (not by you, obvs) by someone who is either knowingly lying or utterly clueless about death certification. It is not NHS data, it is data wrongly interpreted from CDC data in the US and circulated by Covid deniers. Please don't circulate this [redacted].

The national figures for Covid deaths are done in a couple of ways. Initial figures are based on those who test positive and die within 28 days. it is true that many of those people have undelying conditions, but they are things like high blood pressure, diabetes, asthma etc, and the probability that they will die of one of those in the next 28 days is vanishingly small, for practical purposes, zero. It might surprise you that the actuarial probability that an average 80 year old will die in the next 28 days is less than 1%.

Data is gathered this way because even if imperfect, it is consistent and therefore temporal trends can be tracked. If the definition of a related death changed, the data would become useless. In all likelihood, it is actually an underestimate because the number of people misclassified as dying of Covid when they didn't is almost certainly outweighed by the number who actually die from Covid after 28 days, e.g. after a lengthy ICU stay, or were never tested.

On the death certificate, Covid may be mentioned if part of the cause of death. If that death was due to the oft-cited hit by a bus, it won't be mentioned at all. If death is due to an inflammatory complication of Covid, it will, regardless of whether it is within 28 days or not.

If you had previous high blood pressure and then had a heart attack and died, did you die from a heart attack or high blood pressure? On the UK death certificate, heart attack (aka myocardial infarction) would be listed a a primary cause of death, and high blood pressure may be listed as a subsidiary cause, i.e it contributed to the chance of having a myocardial infarction.

And if you died from cancer because your treatment was interrupted because of Covid pressures, what is your cause of death?

It is patently ridiculous for anyone to suggest that there are only a few Covid deaths and the rest is just the usual normal stuff. The queue of ambulances, packed hospitals and broken front line staff will tell anyone who is not a Covid denier otherwise.
		
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Are the actual death numbers correct? ie <300 under 40's?


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. If that is correct, and I can't confirm that, it does add some perspective.

I am in no way playing down the severity of the pandemic, or advocating that the restrictions are unnecessary, but I was staggered by that number, apparently from  NHS data. Has anyone else seen it?  That might explain why so many seem unwilling to adhere to the guidance as they do not feel they are at (serious) risk.
		
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You've triggered a few replies already.
It may be tricky with all the stats, I still think the 3rd statistic here is a key one.
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...is-it-has-it-affected-you.104530/post-2277672
In early Jan when next released I'm expecting more of the same 🙁


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## DRW (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Ethan, but why do the NHS publish this weekly figure then?
This is the NHS England Official site giving this information out.
Yes, the interpratation can be lost or confusing but these are the figures the NHS is providing.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...nced-deaths-24-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx

Click to expand...

It only includes those that die in hospitals. But at a guess for the younger people(say under 40), probably most would die in hospital if they caught the virus and needed help ?


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Ethan, but why do the NHS publish this weekly figure then?
This is the NHS England Official site giving this information out.
Yes, the interpratation can be lost or confusing but these are the figures the NHS is providing.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...nced-deaths-24-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx

Click to expand...

I agree about the XLS, but the original post was suggesting 388 from circa 70,000. 
The XLS doesn't say that, does it?


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## DRW (Dec 29, 2020)

Been looking for a very long term population growth adjusted excess death chart, just for comparison and of course will show figures that reflect the actions we take with regards to the virus, but was a little bit taken back (not checked the figures/data for the make up of it) :-




Far to depressing to look at deaths tbh and doesn't tell the full story of course. But excess deaths will measure deaths from the virus, lockdown and collateral damage from the policies we are pursuing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

IainP said:



			I agree about the XLS, but the original post was suggesting 388 from circa 70,000.
The XLS doesn't say that, does it?
		
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The XLS is NHS England only, Steve did say he was unsure whether it was out of 70,000 or just England.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry Ethan, but why do the NHS publish this weekly figure then?
This is the NHS England Official site giving this information out.
Yes, the interpratation can be lost or confusing but these are the figures the NHS is providing.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...nced-deaths-24-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx

Click to expand...

My response was mainly to the suggestion that only a small fraction of reported deaths were actually due to Covid, and that the rest were due to other underlying illnesses and Covid was an innocent bystander. That arose from a faulty interpretation of US CDC data bt has been carried over the pond to here too. 

The weekly death rates are to track the general course. Even if the definition was slightly off, it is consistent and objective and can be used to observe the trend.


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			The XLS is NHS England only, Steve did say he was unsure whether it was out of 70,000 or just England.
		
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Yes I know the XLS is NHS England, not that was what was asked.
Do you agree with the 388 figure?

Or might that be circa 80% inaccurate?


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## Mudball (Dec 29, 2020)

Was speaking to a GP friend (he and family have recovered) about stories from the frontline  ... he says that the situation was fairly grim. Some bits that I paraphrase... final year post grad students being drafted in to help as there is a shortage/burnout of frontline staff. Talks about potential shortage of oxygen supplies as it is being consumed quickly. Storage challenges with the current vaccine and hence all looking to AZ/Oxford to be rolled out. Expecting another wave mid Jan as the impact of Christmas and school reopening will start showing up. Pretty much write off 21 Q1 if not till summer 21.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

IainP said:



			Yes I know the XLS is NHS England, not that was what was asked.
Do you agree with the 388 figure?

Or might that be circa 80% inaccurate?
		
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Sorry you’ve genuinely lost me, all the deaths are a tragedy and I am as far removed from being a covid denier that there is. I never used the 70,000 figure and explained it was Steve.

Why would anyone disagree with that figure? Surely it’s accurate if NHS England are publishing it.

The only issue I have with the figure is the idiots using it to somehow undermine what we are up against as I have heard some say that they disagree with being locked up as the chances of ”them” dying from catching Covid is a lot less than other risks they face everyday.

What they seem to forget though that the battle is not with them, it’s with all of us.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry you’ve genuinely lost me, all the deaths are a tragedy and I am as far removed from being a covid denier that there is. I never used the 70,000 figure and explained it was Steve.

Why would anyone disagree with that figure? Surely it’s accurate if NHS England are publishing it.

The only issue I have with the figure is the idiots using it to somehow undermine what we are up against as I have heard some say that they disagree with being locked up as the chances of ”them” dying from catching Covid is a lot less than other risks they face everyday.

What they seem to forget though that the battle is not with them, it’s with all of us.
		
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It is clear there is a very significant correlation between age and risk of death, so the figures are not hard to believe. Most of the dead are older, but the death rate is not to be take lightly in middle age - I am in that group and I certainly don't. The young, though, although very unlikely to die, seem to be more likely to get long Covid, and some of those who survive have had unpleasant hospital stays and stormy courses, and possibly are storing up organ damage which will revisit them in the medium term. I predict an increase in cases of kidney and liver failure and a variety of other unpleasant health outcomes.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 29, 2020)

Unless I've missed it, no-one has made mention of the 4 year prison sentence handed out to the Chinese reporter who went to Wuhan back in Jan/Feb to report on what was going on there. 
One of my brothers is teaching in China, and he says it's now like there was no virus or  anything like it. There definately is no reporting of anything about it anyway. Having said that, he says his flight back over to there back in August was like nothing we do. Temperature checks at the airport, mask mandatory on the whole journey, air crew in NBC type suits, no food or drink, landing in Beijing all staff in NBC suits, physical escort to the hotel room he was to be staying in for 2 weeks at his expense with guards outside each door. It's probably fair to say they were taking it a lot more serious than we have done.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is clear there is a very significant correlation between age and risk of death, so the figures are not hard to believe. Most of the dead are older, but the death rate is not to be take lightly in middle age - I am in that group and I certainly don't. The young, though, although very unlikely to die, seem to be more likely to get long Covid, and some of those who survive have had unpleasant hospital stays and stormy courses, and possibly are storing up organ damage which will revisit them in the medium term. I predict an increase in cases of kidney and liver failure and a variety of other unpleasant health outcomes.
		
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Totally understand that, I’m only a couple of years away from 60.

But sadly we need the debate/discussions to involve all elements of society so the truth can get out there and the rubbish destroyed and dismissed.


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## Reemul (Dec 29, 2020)

I think another issue is what some people think an underlying health issue is. They don't seem to realise how many millions have High Blood Pressure, Asthma, Obesity, roughly around 15 million of them. You can't isolate 15 million people no matter how hard you try.

Then add in the negative effect it has on the NHS and you get even more people dying of cancer, heart attacks and strokes because they cannot get treated quickly enough.

Then we can add on the people who are not well, that cannot get treatment and that make their lives miserable, like having cataracts removed or hip and knee replacements so they can't go fishing, play golf or even for a drive to the shops.

It really makes my blood boil when you see these people disregarding the above just because they cannot go drinking or partying.

Very sad times and for those of us that are not affected by any of the above we should be thankful.


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## DRW (Dec 29, 2020)

Eran Segal on Twitter: "Israel vaccination update: ~500,000 vaccinated (&gt;5% of pop) ~25% of all 60+ years old vaccinated We estimate that in a week we will see a lower percent of 60+ years old out of the critically ill, going from ~70% now to ~20% by mid-January Hope this forecast will come true https://t.co/6lJKD1uEu5" / Twitter

Israel, cracking on. already done 25% of 60 years old plus. Wow.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 29, 2020)

DRW said:



Eran Segal on Twitter: "Israel vaccination update: ~500,000 vaccinated (&gt;5% of pop) ~25% of all 60+ years old vaccinated We estimate that in a week we will see a lower percent of 60+ years old out of the critically ill, going from ~70% now to ~20% by mid-January Hope this forecast will come true https://t.co/6lJKD1uEu5" / Twitter

Israel, cracking on. already done 25% of 60 years old plus. Wow.
		
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Good effort on their part. But they are, of course, dealing with a rather smaller population than most western european countries


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## bobmac (Dec 29, 2020)

DRW said:



Eran Segal on Twitter: "Israel vaccination update: ~500,000 vaccinated (&gt;5% of pop) ~25% of all 60+ years old vaccinated We estimate that in a week we will see a lower percent of 60+ years old out of the critically ill, going from ~70% now to ~20% by mid-January Hope this forecast will come true https://t.co/6lJKD1uEu5" / Twitter

Israel, cracking on. already done 25% of 60 years old plus. Wow.
		
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I wonder how many people in the UK have had the vaccine?
Latest figure I could find was 616,933 up to Dec 20th
Does anyone know any more updates?


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## triple_bogey (Dec 29, 2020)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Unless I've missed it, no-one has made mention of the 4 year prison sentence handed out to the Chinese reporter who went to Wuhan back in Jan/Feb to report on what was going on there.
One of my brothers is teaching in China, and he says it's now like there was no virus or  anything like it. There definately is no reporting of anything about it anyway. Having said that, he says his flight back over to there back in August was like nothing we do. Temperature checks at the airport, mask mandatory on the whole journey, air crew in NBC type suits, no food or drink, landing in Beijing all staff in NBC suits, physical escort to the hotel room he was to be staying in for 2 weeks at his expense with guards outside each door. It's probably fair to say they were taking it a lot more serious than we have done.
		
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I've read snippets. It seems she was just a normal citizen making vids and acting as a serious journalist. There's a video floating about, with the lady causing trouble at a testing station. Trying to break down the lockdown barriers and trying to free people in quarantine.

I've spoken to former colleagues and they echo the exact same as what you're brother is describing. Even when they only find 1 case, the whole area goes into mass testing.

You only need to watch a few Youtubers like British father/son combo the ''Barretts'' or ''Living in China''(Sheffield lad) to see that normal life has resumed there. And stop listening to others that never have stepped foot in the country and believe anything the MSM writes.

I see this new UK mutated strain of Covid is starting to appear worldwide now. ''facepalm''.


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## SteveJay (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			My response was mainly to the suggestion that only a small fraction of reported deaths were actually due to Covid, and that the rest were due to other underlying illnesses and Covid was an innocent bystander.
		
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That isn't what I said or suggested. 

I didn't say Covid was "an innocent bystander," I said most deaths must be where Covid had compounded a pre-existing condition, in the same way as your earlier analogy of someone with high blood pressure who suffers from a heart attack. It seems that this data indicates that hardly any deaths occur in otherwise healthy younger individuals with no existing medical condition. All I was pointing out was that is a message I had not seen previously.

Will reiterate I am not one of the conspiracy theorists or rule breakers. I adhere to the rules and have taken part in a Covid vaccine trial and, if I had the placebo rather than the vaccine, I will be taking up the vaccine at the earliest opportunity.


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## bluewolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Over 53000 positive cases reported today.



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Are they reporting where these cases are being diagnosed?


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## fundy (Dec 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Are they reporting where these cases are being diagnosed?
		
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the regional data runs a few days behind the "headline" numbers


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			The clown of a head teacher at the school my G/F works at decided it would be a good idea to have an Xmas lunch the day before end of term. 350 people in one hall, now 5 teachers have tested positive 🙄
		
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Update on this, one of the teachers has now been admitted to hospital with breathing difficulties


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## DRW (Dec 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Are they reporting where these cases are being diagnosed?
		
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You can change the region on this, by clicking on 'Shropshire', a drop down menu will appear if you like this specimen date) or goto the whole of UK reports  :-

Cases | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk)

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/   (all data is given via this link)

Or if you want on reported data(you change look at your area) :-

How many coronavirus cases are there in Shropshire? (getthedata.com)

Or a seven day rolling figure/map is given here :-

Interactive Map | Coronavirus in the UK (data.gov.uk)

Hope that helps.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			That isn't what I said or suggested.

I didn't say Covid was "an innocent bystander," I said most deaths must be where Covid had compounded a pre-existing condition, in the same way as your earlier analogy of someone with high blood pressure who suffers from a heart attack. It seems that this data indicates that hardly any deaths occur in otherwise healthy younger individuals with no existing medical condition. All I was pointing out was that is a message I had not seen previously.

Will reiterate I am not one of the conspiracy theorists or rule breakers. I adhere to the rules and have taken part in a Covid vaccine trial and, if I had the placebo rather than the vaccine, I will be taking up the vaccine at the earliest opportunity.
		
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That isn't what you said, unless you were assuming we all took older age to be a pre-existing condition (which it isn't on death certificates). . 

The first couple of line of your post were : _I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. _

That assertion is still utterly false and arises from Covid deniers in the US who deliberately misinterpreted data on death certificate, and it is not what you just claimed you said. No meaningful proportion of these people died of the underlying condition, and very few of the underlying condition compounded by Covid. The great majority died of Covid, which in some cases they got or were made worse by, an underlying condition. Many of these deaths occurred in people whose underling condition was controlled and posed little risk of imminent harm.  

The likelihood that anyone died from another condition, pre-existing or not, can be inferred from the normal background death rate. In any 28 day period, that is extremely low for even older people, and only exceeds 1% for people over 80 years old. 

This sort of sh!t is very harmful and leads people to ignore hygiene measures. You really shouldn't spread it around.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That isn't what you said, unless you were assuming we all took older age to be a pre-existing condition (which it isn't on death certificates). .

The first couple of line of your post were : _I read elsewhere, that only 388 people have died in the UK (or maybe England) from Covid, i.e. they had no underlying health conditions. All other (c. 70,000) deaths were due to other pre- existing medical conditions, compounded by Covid, or where they died from the condition but had tested positive for Covid. _

That assertion is still utterly false and arises from Covid deniers in the US who deliberately misinterpreted data on death certificate, and it is not what you just claimed you said. No meaningful proportion of these people died of the underlying condition, and very few of the underlying condition compounded by Covid. The great majority died of Covid, which in some cases they got or were made worse by, an underlying condition. Many of these deaths occurred in people whose underling condition was controlled and posed little risk of imminent harm. 

The likelihood that anyone died from another condition, pre-existing or not, can be inferred from the normal background death rate. In any 28 day period, that is extremely low for even older people, and only exceeds 1% for people over 80 years old.

This sort of sh!t is very harmful and leads people to ignore hygiene measures. You really shouldn't spread it around.
		
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I think you’re being a bit harsh, I clarified it to him were the figures he had heard had come from. It’s nothing to do with the US, it’s people in this Country reading the figures on the NHS England website, which is linked from the .Gov page.

Are you saying the NHS England figures for the deaths of those from Covid-19 aged 59 and under with no pre-existing health condition is incorrect?


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## road2ruin (Dec 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Update on this, one of the teachers has now been admitted to hospital with breathing difficulties 

Click to expand...

Obviously sad news and I hope for the best however whilst the headteacher was an idiot doesn’t this also boil down to personal responsibility? 

The teacher who attended could have turned around and gone back home but made the decision to crack on and have a good time.


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## SteveJay (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This sort of sh!t is very harmful and leads people to ignore hygiene measures. You really shouldn't spread it around.
		
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Err....i resent that comment. It isn't my data, as shown in earlier posts, it's published by the NHS. Anyway, who are you to tell anyone not to repeat such data?


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Sorry you’ve genuinely lost me, all the deaths are a tragedy and I am as far removed from being a covid denier that there is. I never used the 70,000 figure and explained it was Steve.

Why would anyone disagree with that figure? Surely it’s accurate if NHS England are publishing it.

The only issue I have with the figure is the idiots using it to somehow undermine what we are up against as I have heard some say that they disagree with being locked up as the chances of ”them” dying from catching Covid is a lot less than other risks they face everyday.

What they seem to forget though that the battle is not with them, it’s with all of us.
		
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Even then, as you've lost me!
Maybe your posts weren't being interpreted as you expected and/or I'm not interpreting them right.
Personally I feel the England NHS stats are worthy of debate.
My advice to Steve would have been to raise the debate, but miss out the "guessed at" numbers, as that just distracts (as has done).
To your question, I would disagree with that number.
To me:
1979 from 47,749
I very different to:
338 from 70,000

Happy to be corrected if I have the numbers incorrect.


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I wonder how many people in the UK have had the vaccine?
Latest figure I could find was 616,933 up to Dec 20th
Does anyone know any more updates?
		
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This one not giving a bigger number than the one you mentioned - but still good news
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-55478675


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

IainP said:



			Even then, as you've lost me!
Maybe your posts weren't being interpreted as you expected and/or I'm not interpreting them right.
Personally I feel the England NHS stats are worthy of debate.
My advice to Steve would have been to raise the debate, but miss out the "guessed at" numbers, as that just distracts (as has done).
To your question, I would disagree with that number.
To me:
1979 from 47,479
I very different to:
338 from 70,000

Happy to be corrected if I have the numbers incorrect.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...nced-deaths-24-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx

Going on the figures in tab 3 in the link above there are a total of 388 deaths from 3 age groups, 59 and below, with no pre-existing condition.

A total of 1591, aged 60 and over, with no pre-existing condition.

A total of 1979 deaths with no pre-existing condition.

The total No of deaths from Covid19 is 47749.

These are deaths that have occurred in hospital in England and the person was positive for Covid19.

So your numbers are correct, but sadly, when the deniers (not Steve) are only using the figure of 388 (59 and under), they do not mention it’s England only, or they in hospital or any of the other information. They then use the figure of 70,000 which I believe is what some in the media use as the “true” death toll.

I’ve also seen it used as a % figure against the population of the UK.

It is one stat which is used, imo, incorrectly to cause alarm and despondency amongst younger people.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

Any of the "young" people that are being blasé about how serious this is should be forced to read the stories of the two Newcastle players that are still suffering after having it. These are two of the fittest people in the country and they are still suffering considerably. Yes they survived but there is no immediate prospect of them returning to football.

"Newcastle will not name those individuals afflicted on grounds of medical confidentiality but Bruce has seen his squad experience a wide range of symptoms and degree of illness. “We’ve had the full set,” he said. “We’ve had vomiting, sores, mouth ulcers, no smell, no taste. The fatigue element is a big problem. For the vast majority who had it, fatigue is the one thing the virus leaves. They go for a walk for half an hour and then want to go back to bed. It’s as brutal as that. It’s been a really difficult couple of weeks. It’s extremely difficult to manage.” "

"The unnamed duo are expected to be sidelined for weeks as they recover from falling seriously ill, and having witnessed the effects of Covid at first hand, Bruce is imploring everyone to take the disease seriously as the Government prepares to relax restrictions for a five-day period over Christmas.
“If you ever underestimated this thing, then don’t,” said the Newcastle boss. “You’re talking about elite professionals here, and the way it got hold of everybody was quite scary stuff. For everybody out there, stay safe. I know it’s Christmas, but with what we’ve just witnessed, then you’ve got to be careful.
“The players are fit, healthy and young, and for the vast majority, it washes over them. But unfortunately, for two of the players in particular, it has not washed over them. I think it would be wrong for me to go into too much detail, but they’re not going to be ready for at least a couple of weeks."

If supremely fit, young footballers can be suffering so badly several weeks after catching it then they need to realise how much worse it could be for the average Joe/Joanna in the street.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 29, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Obviously sad news and I hope for the best however whilst the headteacher was an idiot doesn’t this also boil down to personal responsibility? 

The teacher who attended could have turned around and gone back home but made the decision to crack on and have a good time.
		
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Unfortunately it doesn't really work like that. This was a school lunch meal and the staff were required to be there to supervise the pupils. Many (including my G/F) spoke out against it but at the end of the day they are paid to do a job.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Any of the "young" people that are being blasé about how serious this is should be forced to read the stories of the two Newcastle players that are still suffering after having it. These are two of the fittest people in the country and they are still suffering considerably. Yes they survived but there is no immediate prospect of them returning to football.

"Newcastle will not name those individuals afflicted on grounds of medical confidentiality but Bruce has seen his squad experience a wide range of symptoms and degree of illness. “We’ve had the full set,” he said. “We’ve had vomiting, sores, mouth ulcers, no smell, no taste. The fatigue element is a big problem. For the vast majority who had it, fatigue is the one thing the virus leaves. They go for a walk for half an hour and then want to go back to bed. It’s as brutal as that. It’s been a really difficult couple of weeks. It’s extremely difficult to manage.” "

"The unnamed duo are expected to be sidelined for weeks as they recover from falling seriously ill, and having witnessed the effects of Covid at first hand, Bruce is imploring everyone to take the disease seriously as the Government prepares to relax restrictions for a five-day period over Christmas.
“If you ever underestimated this thing, then don’t,” said the Newcastle boss. “You’re talking about elite professionals here, and the way it got hold of everybody was quite scary stuff. For everybody out there, stay safe. I know it’s Christmas, but with what we’ve just witnessed, then you’ve got to be careful.
“The players are fit, healthy and young, and for the vast majority, it washes over them. But unfortunately, for two of the players in particular, it has not washed over them. I think it would be wrong for me to go into too much detail, but they’re not going to be ready for at least a couple of weeks."

If supremely fit, young footballers can be suffering so badly several weeks after catching it then they need to realise how much worse it could be for the average Joe/Joanna in the street.
		
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One of Bruce’s best excuses for being a terrible manager of a terrible football team (again!!).....


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## road2ruin (Dec 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Unfortunately it doesn't really work like that. This was a school lunch meal and the staff were required to be there to supervise the pupils. Many (including my G/F) spoke out against it but at the end of the day they are paid to do a job.
		
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Ah, fair enough, thought it was a teachers jolly rather than a school thing. Ridiculous decision by the Head to allow it and, should the worst happen to any member of staff then I would expect them to face the consequences.


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## Dando (Dec 29, 2020)

Waiting on my daughters test result. She was sent home from work (care home) with a cough and tight chest.
She’s quarantining in her room and Mrs d has used about a million gallons of dettol spray around the house


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## DRW (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			snip

It is one stat which is used, imo,* incorrectly to cause alarm and despondency amongst younger people*.
		
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Don't disagree with what you say in your post.

I had a conversation with my daughter(20s) recently when she become aware of these figures, effectively what you say and welcomed the discussion, openness is key. Luckily I knew already about this, as such was pre armed with knowledge.

We discussed about the whole of point of restrictions, is to try to save as many people as possible, reduce damage to people who will survive and all the small bits we can do, hopefully will help with this. 

Discussed more, as its not a simple ask and certainly very foggy. And isn't helped when the people at most risk (ie. old) [or others], are doing stuff you would not suggest is wise......As we know age is the biggest killer with this virus.

There has been some low points for me, not going to my sons birthday, as that would make 7 of us, even if outside. Not having Christmas dinner as a whole family was the same, we had done that for over 28 years. Still not sure the government should have the power to say that but I will run with it for now. Sadly still don't see this ending before 2022 or 2023 really, nothing has changed my mind this is in for the medium/long term.....


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...nced-deaths-24-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx

Going on the figures in tab 3 in the link above there are a total of 388 deaths from 3 age groups, 59 and below, with no pre-existing condition.

A total of 1591, aged 60 and over, with no pre-existing condition.

A total of 1979 deaths with no pre-existing condition.

The total No of deaths from Covid19 is 47749.

These are deaths that have occurred in hospital in England and the person was positive for Covid19.

So your numbers are correct, but sadly, when the deniers (not Steve) are only using the figure of 388 (59 and under), they do not mention it’s England only, or they in hospital or any of the other information. They then use the figure of 70,000 which I believe is what some in the media use as the “true” death toll.

I’ve also seen it used as a % figure against the population of the UK.

It is one stat which is used, imo, incorrectly to cause alarm and despondency amongst younger people.
		
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Thanks for explaining.
Have not come across these "deniers" propaganda items myself yet. That context is useful.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

SammmeBee said:



			One of Bruce’s best excuses for being a terrible manager of a terrible football team (again!!).....
		
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What a wonderfully sympathetic comment about two professional sportsmen suffering the long term effects of a virus that is preventing them from doing their job. The vast majority of people on this forum are decent human beings. Comments like that make me think that you are in the minority.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Err....i resent that comment. It isn't my data, as shown in earlier posts, it's published by the NHS. Anyway, who are you to tell anyone not to repeat such data?
		
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You related the data in a grossly inaccurate and misleading way. I quoted the most egregious example to you.


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## SteveJay (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You related the data in a grossly inaccurate and misleading way. I quoted the most egregious example to you.
		
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OK, we will agree to disagree. Still not going to be told what I can post or not post on a forum by you.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...nced-deaths-24-December-2020-weekly-file.xlsx

Going on the figures in tab 3 in the link above there are a total of 388 deaths from 3 age groups, 59 and below, with no pre-existing condition.

A total of 1591, aged 60 and over, with no pre-existing condition.

A total of 1979 deaths with no pre-existing condition.

The total No of deaths from Covid19 is 47749.

These are deaths that have occurred in hospital in England and the person was positive for Covid19.

So your numbers are correct, but sadly, when the deniers (not Steve) are only using the figure of 388 (59 and under), they do not mention it’s England only, or they in hospital or any of the other information. They then use the figure of 70,000 which I believe is what some in the media use as the “true” death toll.

I’ve also seen it used as a % figure against the population of the UK.

It is one stat which is used, imo, incorrectly to cause alarm and despondency amongst younger people.
		
Click to expand...

The biggest issue with the data is whether any pre-existing condition influenced the likelihood of getting Covid (eg immunosuppressive) or influenced the likelihood of death once they had it (e.g. cardiac or respiratory disease). Many of the things listed as pre-existing illnesses had neither effect but lots of older people do have some pre-existing disorder of some sort, everything from a recovered stroke to osteo-arthritis. It is very misleading to characterise Covid in such people as a condition of the frail and sick, and there has been an attempt in some quarters to say “Well, most of these people were likely to die soon anyway”. Saying the 300-odd died of Covid alone and the rest really died of their pre-existing condition, maybe helped on the way by Covid, is simply false and falsely encourages relatively healthy people to take less care.


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Over 53000 positive cases reported today.



Click to expand...

A lot of us were expecting a tough January and this trend is reinforcing that view.
Could do with the trend reversing soon 🤞


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

IainP said:



			Thanks for explaining.
Have not come across these "deniers" propaganda items myself yet. That context is useful.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately (it’s not actually that bad) I run the social media accounts for the Golf Club so I get to see a lot of retweets, posts etc on things like FBook, Twitter and to a far lesser degree, Instagram. I have thought of linking some of these articles just to let people on here see some of the ignorance out there! Some of it from professional people as well.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			What a wonderfully sympathetic comment about two professional sportsmen suffering the long term effects of a virus that is preventing them from doing their job. The vast majority of people on this forum are decent human beings. Comments like that make me think that you are in the minority.
		
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Furlough runs until March so they should be okay I suspect.......


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The biggest issue with the data is whether any pre-existing condition influenced the likelihood of getting Covid (eg immunosuppressive) or influenced the likelihood of death once they had it (e.g. cardiac or respiratory disease). Many of the things listed as pre-existing illnesses had neither effect but lots of older people do have some pre-existing disorder of some sort, everything from a recovered stroke to osteo-arthritis. It is very misleading to characterise Covid in such people as a condition of the frail and sick, and there has been an attempt in some quarters to say “Well, most of these people were likely to die soon anyway”. Saying the 300-odd died of Covid alone and the rest really died of their pre-existing condition, maybe helped on the way by Covid, is simply false and falsely encourages relatively healthy people to take less care.
		
Click to expand...

Which is why I think it is irresponsible for NHS England to publish this information publicly, yes have it available, but have available for those who need and understand it.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Which is why I think it is irresponsible for NHS England to publish this information publicly, yes have it available, but have available for those who need and understand it.
		
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Indeed, and I see from the likes that irony is not dead yet.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Any of the "young" people that are being blasé about how serious this is should be forced to read the stories of the two Newcastle players that are still suffering after having it. These are two of the fittest people in the country and they are still suffering considerably. Yes they survived but there is no immediate prospect of them returning to football.

"Newcastle will not name those individuals afflicted on grounds of medical confidentiality but Bruce has seen his squad experience a wide range of symptoms and degree of illness. “We’ve had the full set,” he said. “We’ve had vomiting, sores, mouth ulcers, no smell, no taste. The fatigue element is a big problem. For the vast majority who had it, fatigue is the one thing the virus leaves. They go for a walk for half an hour and then want to go back to bed. It’s as brutal as that. It’s been a really difficult couple of weeks. It’s extremely difficult to manage.” "

"The unnamed duo are expected to be sidelined for weeks as they recover from falling seriously ill, and having witnessed the effects of Covid at first hand, Bruce is imploring everyone to take the disease seriously as the Government prepares to relax restrictions for a five-day period over Christmas.
“If you ever underestimated this thing, then don’t,” said the Newcastle boss. “You’re talking about elite professionals here, and the way it got hold of everybody was quite scary stuff. For everybody out there, stay safe. I know it’s Christmas, but with what we’ve just witnessed, then you’ve got to be careful.
“The players are fit, healthy and young, and for the vast majority, it washes over them. But unfortunately, for two of the players in particular, it has not washed over them. I think it would be wrong for me to go into too much detail, but they’re not going to be ready for at least a couple of weeks."

If supremely fit, young footballers can be suffering so badly several weeks after catching it then they need to realise how much worse it could be for the average Joe/Joanna in the street.
		
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It is awful what’s happening to these footballers and others, however, shock treatment never works on every one, if it did we‘d have less young people start smoking or drinking etc.

The sad fact is a lot of us at that age thought we were invicible or had an attitude of “it’ll never happen to us”


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## fundy (Dec 29, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Are they reporting where these cases are being diagnosed?
		
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England's regional COVID-19 positives reported today (Dec 29): London: 14875 South East: 8886 East of England: 7222 North West: 4194 West Midlands: 3993 East Midlands: 2569 South West: 2190 Yorkshire and The Humber: 1886 North East: 1230


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2020)

IainP said:



			A lot of us were expecting a tough January and this trend is reinforcing that view.
Could do with the trend reversing soon 🤞
		
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Have to see what the affect Tier 4 has had - if it follows the other trends we should see a drop - but that would only happen if people have abided by the restrictions


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have to see what the affect Tier 4 has had - if it follows the other trends we should see a drop - but that would only happen if people have abided by the restrictions
		
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Plenty of people from tier 4 out and about in the tier 2 Lake District the last couple of days, even needing Mountain Rescue to drag them down off the fells....


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## Imurg (Dec 29, 2020)

And we know that many haven't...
Its been 10 days since T4 and all I've seen is numbers going up.
If its working then we should see some decreases soon.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 29, 2020)

Whilst we have abided by Tier 4 restrictions it doesn't feel as if we 100% should when our area is so low compared to those in Tier 3. We're lumped into Cambridgeshire but as Huntingdonshire are pretty low. Golf course and gym are in Northamptonshire which has been quite high in spots for the whole year yet bizarrely only went to tier 3 in the last review. So we can't visit either due to the risk of transmission and yet we'd be more at risk there than in our local area.

Simplest thing to aid compliance is to get rid of discrepencies and have us all in the same tier...aka lockdown!


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## DanFST (Dec 29, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Plenty of people from tier 4 out and about in the tier 2 Lake District the last couple of days, even needing Mountain Rescue to drag them down off the fells....
		
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Did you check their bank statements?


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## Imurg (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			You're forgetting that all bets were off over Xmas. It's going higher before it comes down.
		
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Technically not in T4 but I know for certain that rules were broken..


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			You're forgetting that all bets were off over Xmas. It's going higher before it comes down.
		
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I'm expecting a brief drop in the number of cases due to the Tier 4 restrictions coming in before another rise due to the Xmas relaxation.


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## bobmac (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			You're forgetting that all bets were off over Xmas. It's going higher before it comes down.
		
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I feel Tier 5 will be introduced in the next week or 2


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## anotherdouble (Dec 29, 2020)

Dando said:



			Waiting on my daughters test result. She was sent home from work (care home) with a cough and tight chest.
She’s quarantining in her room and Mrs d has used about a million gallons of dettol spray around the house
		
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Hope everything turns out ok buddy


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## anotherdouble (Dec 29, 2020)

bobmac said:



			I feel Tier 5 will be introduced in the next week or 2
		
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Maybe tomorrow rather than a week or two


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## Dando (Dec 29, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			Hope everything turns out ok buddy
		
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Thanks mate


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 29, 2020)

Got a message from work. Full escalation and even the main unit is a hot zone now so I am assuming we went from the 9 or so on Christmas Eve to many, many more. Three hot zones and the cold zone for non-covid patients no in part of theatres. Think it is going to be madness when I go back on the 4th. If we are getting overrun I can't see why we don't go for a full lockdown. It is clearly running wild and hospitals like mine are buckling already


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Got a message from work. Full escalation and even the main unit is a hot zone now so I am assuming we went from the 9 or so on Christmas Eve to many, many more. Three hot zones and the cold zone for non-covid patients no in part of theatres. Think it is going to be madness when I go back on the 4th. If we are getting overrun I *can't see why we don't go for a full lockdown.* It is clearly running wild and hospitals like mine are buckling already
		
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Homer , myself I have been educated in protecting the NHS. It clearly is not being protected. Over the last twos month I feel those that are running this show have lost the plot. A full lockdown til the end of January is a minimum for me.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Homer , myself I have been educated in protecting the NHS. *It clearly is not being protected. Over the last twos month I feel those that are running this show have lost the plot.* A full lockdown til the end of January is a minimum for me.
		
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Without defending the government or getting political, is it those running the show or those that aren't following the rules that have lost the plot? In my view the problem is that we are getting advice and guidelines rather than rules/laws. We're in Tier 4 and have had a post on my local Facebook community group asking about whether an outside attraction (seal spotting) 50 miles away is open for visitors despite the rules stating to stay local, and there being at least half a dozen other outside nature attractions within a 15 mile radius.

Common sense isn't as common as it should be and by its very definition a fraction under 50% of the population are of below average intelligence. When you add in those that don't give a damn about the guidance you can easily understand why we're still seeing an increase in cases.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2020)

Definitely both, the problem for me, the government have given an inch and folk are taking more than a mile. Like Ave said before,during the first lockdown we were all in it together. Don’t seem like we are now.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Without defending the government or getting political, is it those running the show or those that aren't following the rules that have lost the plot? In my view the problem is that we are getting advice and guidelines rather than rules/laws. We're in Tier 4 and have had a post on my local Facebook community group asking about whether an outside attraction (seal spotting) 50 miles away is open for visitors despite the rules stating to stay local, and there being at least half a dozen other outside nature attractions within a 15 mile radius.

Common sense isn't as common as it should be and by its very definition a fraction under 50% of the population are of below average intelligence. When you add in those that don't give a damn about the guidance you can easily understand why we're still seeing an increase in cases.
		
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Rules/laws/guidelines whatever you wish to call them have been reasonable straight forward to follow. Unless you are one of the people who want to look for every loophole possible to do something you know you probably shouldn't. 
Or you are just an idiot. 

I've said from the very start that you can't legislate against idiots and that people need to take personal responsibility for how they deal with this pandemic. Unfortunately the number of people not willing to do so or sit in the former camp is significant.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Got a message from work. Full escalation and even the main unit is a hot zone now so I am assuming we went from the 9 or so on Christmas Eve to many, many more. Three hot zones and the cold zone for non-covid patients no in part of theatres. Think it is going to be madness when I go back on the 4th. If we are getting overrun I can't see why we don't go for a full lockdown. It is clearly running wild and hospitals like mine are buckling already
		
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Why did we build the Nightingales and not use them? Why are they not sending all the COVID patients to them and sparing the hospitals from the pressure of these extra patients?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Why did we build the Nightingales and not use them? *Why are they not sending all the COVID patients to them and sparing the hospitals from the pressure of these extra patients?*

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Staff. That's the simple answer. We could easily send all Covid patients to the Nightingale hospitals for treatment but if we sent enough staff in to those hospitals to run them we would leave regular hospitals desperately short of staff to deal with everything else. As to why did we build them without the staff to run them, the answer to that would almost certainly break the forum "No Politics" rule.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Why did we build the Nightingales and not use them? Why are they not sending all the COVID patients to them and sparing the hospitals from the pressure of these extra patients?
		
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Nightingale has closed and there wouldn’t be enough staff to man it anyway

Overall you look at the graphs for the cases and in most areas they are levelling out or reducing slightly apart from London and SE/east England - those areas went to Tier 4 10 days ago so that should start to  reduce over the next week - just like when areas in the North went into Tier 3 

I know it’s hard not to react to the numbers but I can see tomorrow the rest of the country going into tier 4 but I can’t see a full lockdown which is pretty much the next level - they have to put trust into the tier system as well as the vaccine - the impact of a full lockdown could be as damaging as the virus itself


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaz said:



			You need staff
		
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Then get them, through the private/agency sector backed by some from the Hospital. But stop sending the COVID patients to the hospitals, protect them and the other patients. Otherwise what was the point of building the Nightingales?


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nightingale has closed and there wouldn’t be enough staff to man it anyway

Overall you look at the graphs for the cases and in most areas they are levelling out or reducing slightly apart from London and SE/east England - those areas went to Tier 4 10 days ago so that should start to  reduce over the next week - just like when areas in the North went into Tier 3

I know it’s hard not to react to the numbers but I can see tomorrow the rest of the country going into tier 4 but I can’t see a full lockdown which is pretty much the next level - they have to put trust into the tier system as well as the vaccine - the impact of a full lockdown could be as damaging as the virus itself
		
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Not closed, on standby apparently....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55469188


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Then get them, through the private/agency sector backed by some from the Hospital. But stop sending the COVID patients to the hospitals, protect them and the other patients. *Otherwise what was the point of building the Nightingales?*

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Publicity and propoganda, you can’t get them from private/agency etc when there isn’t enough trained staff out there.


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## hovis (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Not closed, on standby apparently....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55469188

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My wife does the accounts for all the nightingales facilities management .  Very much open


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Then get them, through the private/agency sector backed by some from the Hospital. But stop sending the COVID patients to the hospitals, protect them and the other patients. Otherwise what was the point of building the Nightingales?
		
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I think the idea was originally for the Nightingales to be a step down, for convalescent patients who had come through the worst but were not yet ready to go home. They are not equipped to be ICUs.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the idea was originally for the Nightingales to be a step down, for convalescent patients who had come through the worst but were not yet ready to go home. They are not equipped to be ICUs.
		
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Thanks, that answers one of my questions as to why we didn't send all Covid patients to the Nightingale's to leave regular hospitals open to deal with the normal issues. Staffing issues aside.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			Then get them, through the private/agency sector backed by some from the Hospital. But stop sending the COVID patients to the hospitals, protect them and the other patients. Otherwise what was the point of building the Nightingales?
		
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Get them from where ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

This was in today’s Telegraph, not sure if it’s true or just media lies.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the idea was originally for the Nightingales to be a step down, for convalescent patients who had come through the worst but were not yet ready to go home. They are not equipped to be ICUs.
		
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How much to equip each Nightingale with an icu, Say 30 beds? 10-15Mil? We have spent so much we might as well go the extra mile and provide the sort of hospitals we need to stop filling the other hospitals with COVID patients. I understand staffing is a problem especially ICU nurses but we have to recruit more from all over the world. I know we do that already (my wife has been in ICU on 3 separate occasions over the last 3 months) but we have to step it up.


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## IainP (Dec 29, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nightingale has closed and there wouldn’t be enough staff to man it anyway

Overall you look at the graphs for the cases and in most areas they are levelling out or reducing slightly apart from London and SE/east England - those areas went to Tier 4 10 days ago so that should start to  reduce over the next week - just like when areas in the North went into Tier 3

I know it’s hard not to react to the numbers but I can see tomorrow the rest of the country going into tier 4 but I can’t see a full lockdown which is pretty much the next level - they have to put trust into the tier system as well as the vaccine - the impact of a full lockdown could be as damaging as the virus itself
		
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Also hoping the effect starts to come through. Think you were referring to England only, but a record was also set north of the border.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55474222


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## Billysboots (Dec 29, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Unfortunately it doesn't really work like that. This was a school lunch meal and the staff were required to be there to supervise the pupils. Many (including my G/F) spoke out against it but at the end of the day they are paid to do a job.
		
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I sincerely hope that this head teacher is held to account. I am absolutely dumbfounded that anyone in such a position of responsibility and trust can be so staggeringly stupid as to put so many people at risk.

Of all the acts of crass stupidity I have read about in the last ten months, this is by some distance the worst.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			How much to equip each Nightingale with an icu, Say 30 beds? 10-15Mil? We have spent so much we might as well go the extra mile and provide the sort of hospitals we need to stop filling the other hospitals with COVID patients. *I understand staffing is a problem especially ICU nurses but we have to recruit more from all over the world. I know we do that already (my wife has been in ICU on 3 separate occasions over the last 3 months) but we have to step it up.*

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We're getting dangerously close to a political/Brexit discussion here with regards to using overseas staff. We need foreign nurses and doctors for the NHS to function. Even as someone that didn't support Brexit I'm concerned with the situation where we are taking trained medical staff from other countries. We need to be paying suitable compensation to those countries for the education and training that those staff are receiving.


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## Backache (Dec 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think the idea was originally for the Nightingales to be a step down, for convalescent patients who had come through the worst but were not yet ready to go home. They are not equipped to be ICUs.
		
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They have the stuff to do ITU there but they don't have the staff.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			We're getting dangerously close to a political/Brexit discussion here with regards to using overseas staff. We need foreign nurses and doctors for the NHS to function. Even as someone that didn't support Brexit I'm concerned with the situation where we are taking trained medical staff from other countries. We need to be paying suitable compensation to those countries for the education and training that those staff are receiving.
		
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I don’t disagree with anything you have posted but the facts are that we can attract the staff and we should.


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## Backache (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I don’t disagree with anything you have posted but the facts are that we can attract the staff and we should.
		
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The whole world wants ITU staff just now, recruitment from elsewhere is not an option whether anyone considers it politically desireable or otherwise..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I don’t disagree with anything you have posted but the facts are that we can attract the staff and we should.
		
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You have to remember that as off Thursday we’ve made it more difficult in the short term to attract staff from the EU.
Those already in employment have their professional qualifications accepted.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			I don’t disagree with anything you have posted but the facts are that we can attract the staff and we should.
		
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Absolutely we should. As long as we are prepared to pay suitable recompense to the countries we are attracting them from. Which would include the costs of training for those staff.


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## Marcg868 (Dec 29, 2020)

Well after 10 months of dealing with my first Covid patient I finally got it on the 25th. I do my lateral flow test every Monday and Friday and my LF came back positive Christmas Day morning, went to the staff testing pod for a pcr test on Boxing Day and go the telephone call to say it’s positive. 
Symptoms haven’t been too bad slight temperature of 38.5-39.1, a very small cough, joint pain is a killer though and feeling really breathless walking upstairs. 
Luckily my sense of taste and smell are intact.
Glad to say I’m the last one on nights to get it 👍.
Other half is also isolating as she is a manager of a care home. She had her first vaccine last Wednesday.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 29, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You have to remember that as off Thursday we’ve made it more difficult in the short term to attract staff from the EU.
Those already in employment have their professional qualifications accepted.
		
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That’s true but surprisingly EU nationals  only account for 5.5% of NHS staff.


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## larmen (Dec 29, 2020)

Some German minister, and the president elect of the US, both talk about a wartime law compelling industry to pull together and produce a lot more vaccine.

Maybe one massive global push could take us to the ‘finish line’?
There must be dozens of companies who could produce the stuff under license? Glaxo, Bayer, ...

And I know people on a golf forum don’t want to hear it, but maybe Pfizer could prioritise the vaccine over Viagra for a while ;-)


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## larmen (Dec 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Yes, it probably will. The Pfizer vacc comes in vials and 5 doses can be drawn from one vial (in fact up to 7 could, but there is an allowance for wastage) so if that vial is not fully used, whatever is left has to be junked. I don't know what the final AZ product looks like, may be packed in individual doses.
		
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This German article says the UK has allowed for up to 6 injections being pulled out of a vile https://m.bild.de/politik/inland/po...0000-impf-dosen-mehr-74672218.bildMobile.html

They ‘demand’ the Germans (probably mean EU) to do the same, stretching the availability by 20%

(Bild is the German version of the sun and therefore they ‘demand’ or ‘mean’ a lot)


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

Just got a ping from the guardian on my phone 

Oxford vaccine approved by the UK 

Excellent news


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## backwoodsman (Dec 30, 2020)

larmen said:



			Some German minister, and the president elect of the US, both talk about a wartime law compelling industry to pull together and produce a lot more vaccine.

Maybe one massive global push could take us to the ‘finish line’?
There must be dozens of companies who could produce the stuff under license? Glaxo, Bayer, ...

And I know people on a golf forum don’t want to hear it, but *maybe Pfizer could prioritise the vaccine over Viagra for a while ;-)*

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Perhaps they already are? Do you know they aren't ??


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## hovis (Dec 30, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Err....i resent that comment. It isn't my data, as shown in earlier posts, it's published by the NHS. Anyway, who are you to tell anyone not to repeat such data?
		
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Perhaps he should send a strongly worded email to these too 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metr...ions-died-of-covid-in-hospitals-13815524/amp/


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## bobmac (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Just got a ping from the guardian on my phone

*Oxford vaccine approved by the UK*

Excellent news
		
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World changing.
A cheap safe vaccine that can be kept in a fridge so can reach even the poorest countries worldwide.
Vaccinations to increase in the UK up to 1 million per week giving the NHS a moral boost, knowing there's light in their tunnel.
Well done to the scientists who made this happen so quickly.
Brilliant


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

larmen said:



			Some German minister, and the president elect of the US, both talk about a wartime law compelling industry to pull together and produce a lot more vaccine.

Maybe one massive global push could take us to the ‘finish line’?
There must be dozens of companies who could produce the stuff under license? Glaxo, Bayer, ...

And I know people on a golf forum don’t want to hear it, but maybe Pfizer could prioritise the vaccine over Viagra for a while ;-)
		
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Viagra (the Pfizer riser) has been generic for some time. Pfizer has moved well past it long ago. 

I thunk there is an unprecedented manufacturing effort ongoing right now. Not sure that Govt pressure would help matters.


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## DRW (Dec 30, 2020)

Also looks like a big push for one dose vaccine to start with :-

Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccine authorised by UK medicines regulator - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

Has anyone seen the oxford graph, that shows infections in both groups over time(ie, after first dose applied). Off to find the data, will be intersting to see if the graph looks like pzifer one


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

DRW said:



			Also looks like a big push for one dose vaccine to start with :-

Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccine authorised by UK medicines regulator - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Has anyone seen the oxford graph, that shows infections in both groups over time(ie, after first dose applied). Off to find the data, will be intersting to see if the graph looks like pzifer one
		
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It sounds like the approval will be for the full dose-full dose regimen, but with up to 12 weeks gap, to allow as many as possible to get their first vaccine asap. This is, in my opinion, an interesting approach and not unreasonable. The low dose-full dose regimen which appears to have higher efficacy was not considered to have enough data for approval, but there isn't data on the efficacy of a 12 week gap either. Logic suggests it is reasonable, but so too does logic suggest the low-high regimen is more effective and arguably preferable. Personally, I would prefer the Pfizer, but will accept the Oxford.


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## anotherdouble (Dec 30, 2020)

Listening to Matt Hancock on radio this morning announcing Oxford vaccine go ahead. He was then questioned about nightingales and their decommissioning. He said he was surprised to read this as it was not true. He went on to say that they are in a state of readiness and in his words, but as of yet they are not needed.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			Listening to Matt Hancock on radio this morning announcing Oxford vaccine go ahead. He was then questioned about nightingales and their decommissioning. He said he was surprised to read this as it was not true. He went on to say that they are in a state of readiness and in his words, *but as of yet they are not needed.*

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Those living in Essex may well disagree ☹️


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 30, 2020)

Fade and Die said:



			How much to equip each Nightingale with an icu, Say 30 beds? 10-15Mil? We have spent so much we might as well go the extra mile and provide the sort of hospitals we need to stop filling the other hospitals with COVID patients. I understand staffing is a problem especially ICU nurses but we have to recruit more from all over the world. I know we do that already (my wife has been in ICU on 3 separate occasions over the last 3 months) but we have to step it up.
		
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If we recruit from other countries who is going to look after the patients in those countries? What makes us more deserving than them?


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## anotherdouble (Dec 30, 2020)

I know Tash. I saw on telly last night upwards of 20 ambulance parked waiting to off load for hours. That then takes the crews off the road.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			World changing.
A cheap safe vaccine that can be kept in a fridge so can reach even the poorest countries worldwide.
Vaccinations to increase in the UK up to 1 million per week giving the NHS a moral boost, knowing there's light in their tunnel.
Well done to the scientists who made this happen so quickly.
Brilliant
		
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I've heard they are going with the one vaccine as many people as possible plan for now

Excellent news again 

Keep it rolling guys


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## bobmac (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I've heard they are going with the one vaccine as many people as possible plan for now

Excellent news again

Keep it rolling guys
		
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Ok ok, that's enough good news for one day.
The doom merchants will be imploding as we speak.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Ok ok, that's enough good news for one day.
The doom merchants will be imploding as we speak.


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Lol to be fair maybe people just need some light at end of tunnel to cheer them up


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## DRW (Dec 30, 2020)

Certainly looks like separation but, not so easy to see, as graphs not from day 1 and 2nd dose timings vary and not a 1,2,3 people etc scale. Pzifer one was much easier to see.

However ague able the most important is trying to get rid of the worst cases, and from this table of hospitalisations would appear good , could be due to chance due to low numbers/short time frame but you would hope not L-

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showFullTableHTML?isHtml=true&tableId=tbl5&pii=S0140-6736(20)32661-1

Wonder how quick they are aiming for, I assume probably within 3ish months edit for 1sr dose to all in 'danger' groups ? Going to be a massive task, best of luck to all involved.

Sure I remember reading that some of the trial people had longer time gaps between 1st and 2nd shot, will have to re-read the lancet write up as must have been in there. Just reread some of it and it is mentioned, second dose timings a little bit all over time), cant wait to see the final data to be released, as should be interesting read. Well worth reading the link below if it interests you and certainly been great for me to read them and understand the processes more.

Safety and efficacy of the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine (AZD1222) against SARS-CoV-2: an interim analysis of four randomised controlled trials in Brazil, South Africa, and the UK - The Lancet


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## bobmac (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Lol to be fair maybe people just need some light at end of tunnel to cheer them up
		
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Nah, people like Smiffy will always be miserable


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I've heard they are going with the one vaccine as many people as possible plan for now

Excellent news again

Keep it rolling guys
		
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It is a rational policy, but they desperately need to immediately apply it to the Pfizer vacc programme currently taking place. It is a waste of resource to give 2 vaccs to the little old ladies who rarely leave their care homes and who are very well protected by one shot. 

It is worth pointing out that there is no evidence about how a 12 week interval affects response to the Oxford vacc, even if clever people can infer that it won't do any harm, but the lack of adequate evidence was enough to knock the low-high regimen on the head, and inference about how it might plausibly help was not considered adequate. Some inconsistencies here which should be more full explained.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 30, 2020)

Need some help understanding the math. A local news outlet reported this morning on 7 Areas of MK that have more than 1000 cases per 100k people. The area I live in is reported as having approx 1040 per 100k, with 98 cases reported. The area in question is circa 20k residents. If we have 98 confirmed cases for 20k people, how does that become 1040 for 100k? 

If we multiply 20k x 5 to get 100k, why are  we multiplying 98 x 10+ 

My brain is hurting trying to understand this


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Need some help understanding the math. A local news outlet reported this morning on 7 Areas of MK that have more than 1000 cases per 100k people. The area I live in is reported as having approx 1040 per 100k, with 98 cases reported. The area in question is circa 20k residents. If we have 98 confirmed cases for 20k people, how does that become 1040 for 100k?

If we multiply 20k x 5 to get 100k, why are  we multiplying 98 x 10+

My brain is hurting trying to understand this
		
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The maths doesn't add up, 98 cases in 20k is 490 per 100k. They must be talking about a wider area. 

The BBC website reports a rate of 775 per 100k for the week 19-25 Dec, some 2095 cases, up 306 from the previous week.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The maths doesn't add up, 98 cases in 20k is 490 per 100k. They must be talking about a wider area.

The BBC website reports a rate of 775 per 100k for the week 19-25 Dec, some 2095 cases, up 306 from the previous week.
		
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Thanks Ethan, this is the report I read, and it says

The *Tattenhoe and Emerson Valley* area, which includes Tattenhoe Park, has a case rate of 1,042.4 cases per 100,000 people with 98 recorded cases.

https://www.mkfm.com/news/local-new...hw3tvyh9wEqtdVAAEfophq3h6ybBdEWhrFsuEtwlsWXO4

I then checked the population for both areas 

http://emerson-valley.localstats.co...gland/south-east/milton-keynes/emerson-valley

17896

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....es-areas-where-population-booming-3032338?amp

12161

I appreciate that there may be a few differences in the actual numbers of people across the two areas, but if there are only 98 cases recorded, then I don't see how we can even be near 1k per 100k


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Thanks Ethan, this is the report I read, and it says

The *Tattenhoe and Emerson Valley* area, which includes Tattenhoe Park, has a case rate of 1,042.4 cases per 100,000 people with 98 recorded cases.

https://www.mkfm.com/news/local-new...hw3tvyh9wEqtdVAAEfophq3h6ybBdEWhrFsuEtwlsWXO4

I then checked the population for both areas

http://emerson-valley.localstats.co...gland/south-east/milton-keynes/emerson-valley

17896

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/lifestyle/family/these-are-milton-keynes-areas-where-population-booming-3032338?amp

12161

I appreciate that there may be a few differences in the actual numbers of people across the two areas, but if there are only 98 cases recorded, then I don't see how we can even be near 1k per 100k
		
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98 people causing a rate of 1042/100k could only occur in a population is 9404 or thereabouts.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 30, 2020)

I notice they just said the vaccine is only approved for over 18s, is this normal for a new vaccine, ir just an effect of how quickly its been pushed through?


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I notice they just said the vaccine is only approved for over 18s, is this normal for a new vaccine, ir just an effect of how quickly its been pushed through?
		
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If that's mental age, then there could be a few people here waiting a while


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2020)

Watching the press briefing from MHRA and Sky News reporter doing typical British Jornalism proud. 

Appear totally negative with limited knowledge of a subject facing in to what are clearly experts in their field. 

What a polished knob end.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 30, 2020)

GreiginFife said:



			Watching the press briefing from MHRA and Sky News reporter doing typical British Jornalism proud.

Appear totally negative with limited knowledge of a subject facing in to what are clearly experts in their field.

What a polished knob end.
		
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Nicely shut down by the scientists though, and made to look like the idiot that he is


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## AmandaJR (Dec 30, 2020)

SaintHacker said:



			I notice they just said the vaccine is only approved for over 18s, is this normal for a new vaccine, ir just an effect of how quickly its been pushed through?
		
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I think it wasn't tested in the trials in that age group due to their minimal risk of getting very poorly with it.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

I was impressed when our nurse at the drs was telling us that NHS staff (not sure if our trust or national) were paid to have the vaccine before it was approved to basically be another trail .. too birds with one stone 

Now she's giving out the vaccine on her days off for free

Amazing work


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2020)

bobmac said:



			World changing.
A cheap safe vaccine that can be kept in a fridge so can reach even the poorest countries worldwide.
Vaccinations to increase in the UK up to 1 million per week giving the NHS a moral boost, knowing there's light in their tunnel.
Well done to the scientists who made this happen so quickly.
Brilliant
		
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Good to have the ability to inject 100million a week but like the Nightingales, if there aren’t enough needle stickers or it isn’t in the right place that seems highly unlikely.


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			Listening to Matt Hancock on radio this morning announcing Oxford vaccine go ahead. He was then questioned about nightingales and their decommissioning. He said he was surprised to read this as it was not true. He went on to say that they are in a state of readiness and in his words, but as of yet they are not needed.
		
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Exeter nightingale hospital has been in use for non COVID patients for around a month.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Good to have the ability to inject 100million a week but like the Nightingales, if there aren’t enough needle stickers or it isn’t in the right place that seems highly unlikely.
		
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I started the volunteer process to be a needle sticker and quit when the very long application form asked for about 4 references (I think). As I've just been made redundant after 30 years and start a new job in Jan it just felt more faff than I wanted. If you want volunteers try not to put too many barriers in their place.


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## bobmac (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Good to have the ability to inject* 100million a week *but like the Nightingales, if there aren’t enough needle stickers or it isn’t in the right place *that seems highly unlikely*.
		
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I agree


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 30, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I started the volunteer process to be a needle sticker and quit when the very long application form asked for about 4 references (I think). As I've just been made redundant after 30 years and start a new job in Jan it just felt more faff than I wanted. If you want volunteers try not to put too many barriers in their place.
		
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Sorry to disagree but if some well meaning amateur was to be sticking a needle into my arm I would be happier if I knew that person had been both trained and character checked.


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## anotherdouble (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Exeter nightingale hospital has been in use for non COVID patients for around a month.
		
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Thanks for the news👍


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry to disagree but if some well meaning amateur was to be sticking a needle into my arm I would be happier if I knew that person had been both trained and character checked.
		
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Would you want a reference from anyone who could attest to her needle sticking abilities? "To whom it may concern, I have witnessed AmandaJR use a hypodermic needle on many occasions and she handles it like a professional needle sticker".


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 30, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			I know Tash. I saw on telly last night upwards of 20 ambulance parked waiting to off load for hours. That then takes the crews off the road.
		
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My dad spent hours in an ambulance then waiting in a corridor with the paramedics after a fall.
That was four years ago so it’s nothing new.
So we have not learned any lessons and this has just shown up shortcomings that have been there for years.
It’s not a good time to be ill..


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Would you want a reference from anyone who could attest to her needle sticking abilities? "To whom it may concern, I have witnessed AmandaJR use a hypodermic needle on many occasions and she handles it like a professional needle sticker".
		
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I would certainly want to know that person had been trained and background checked.

I was a volunteer hospital driver and had to provide three referees as well as being CRB checked.

Or would you be happy for the job to be done by any volunteer?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I would certainly want to know that person had been trained and background checked.

I was a volunteer hospital driver and had to provide three referees as well as being CRB checked.

Or would you be happy for the job to be done by any volunteer?
		
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Genuine question, What’s the worry?
Because of lockdown my wife had to change medication and basically went from a daily tablet to thin her blood (monitored weekly at hospital) to a daily injection administered at home by me.

No training, no choice, prescription turned up, crack on.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My dad spent hours in an ambulance then waiting in a corridor with the paramedics after a fall.
That was four years ago so it’s nothing new.
So we have not learned any lessons and this has just shown up shortcomings that have been there for years.
It’s not a good time to be ill..
		
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And yet my wife was referred to our local A&E yesterday and was dealt with almost immediately and no sign of any ambulances waiting outside or anywhere else. 

We were anticipating a lengthy wait but, in fact, were able to take advantage of the free parking. 

I do not for one moment deny that this was almost certainly a one off but it was our experience.


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I would certainly want to know that person had been trained and background checked.

I was a volunteer hospital driver and had to provide three referees as well as being CRB checked.

Or would you be happy for the job to be done by any volunteer?
		
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This is a very specific focussed job under direct supervision. The main part is being able to stick the needle in without damaging the punter. I don't think the whole gamut of SOP training, which is mostly there to discharge the employer's liability ("They were trained, your honour") rather than actually educate the employee, should be necessary. The training requirements should also be focussed and pared down for a short term badly paid, essentially volunteer role. References are highly unreliable and are being abandoned by many employers as next to useless. The background checks are a racket for the companies that conduct them.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 30, 2020)

Just for clarity. I had to agree to travel to and time for training plus a DBS check. Happy to do both but just got bogged down by the paperwork and didn't pursue.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Genuine question, What’s the worry?
Because of lockdown my wife had to change medication and basically went from a daily tablet to thin her blood (monitored weekly at hospital) to a daily injection administered at home by me.

No training, no choice, prescription turned up, crack on.
		
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At least your wife has the benefit of knowing you. 😉


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Would you want a reference from anyone who could attest to her needle sticking abilities? "To whom it may concern, I have witnessed AmandaJR use a hypodermic needle on many occasions and she handles it like a professional needle sticker".
		
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Do you think a form of self administered vaccine would be in the pipeline.
Possibly for the second dose if the first dose has no side effects.
My wife has a self administered sort of “epipen “ for RA.
Or is it necessary to be monitored afterwards.
Storage is a problem I know ,


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This is a very specific focussed job under direct supervision. The main part is being able to stick the needle in without damaging the punter. I don't think the whole gamut of SOP training, which is mostly there to discharge the employer's liability ("They were trained, your honour") rather than actually educate the employee, should be necessary. The training requirements should also be focussed and pared down for a short term badly paid, essentially volunteer role. References are highly unreliable and are being abandoned by many employers as next to useless. The background checks are a racket for the companies that conduct them.
		
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I accept that the supervision would be reassuring.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And yet my wife was referred to our local A&E yesterday and was dealt with almost immediately and no sign of any ambulances waiting outside or anywhere else.

We were anticipating a lengthy wait but, in fact, were able to take advantage of the free parking.

I do not for one moment deny that this was almost certainly a one off but it was our experience.
		
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Interesting as my son works in a major hospital.
He said the place “ is like a ghost town”
Maybe people who really don’t need A&E are staying away, no visitors either.
COVID is keeping the hypochondriacs at bay?


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I accept that the supervision would be reassuring.
		
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As I understand it there are vaccinators, who do the sticking, above them healthcare professionals who check consent, look for allergic reactions, assist with drawing up syringes, and above them clinical supervisors who help organise the sessions, manage patients with concerns, keep an eye on vaccine supply and inventory, that sort of thing. The basic vaccinator role is a fast throughput production line role, paid at £10.09 to 11.19 an hour, which is a little bit more than an entry level McDonalds job.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			And yet my wife was referred to our local A&E yesterday and was dealt with almost immediately and no sign of any ambulances waiting outside or anywhere else.

We were anticipating a lengthy wait but, in fact, were able to take advantage of the free parking.

I do not for one moment deny that this was almost certainly a one off but it was our experience.
		
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I had exactly the same when I had a disagreement with my carving knife last weekend. Turned up at A+E, checked in with the lady on the desk and sat down in an almost empty waiting room. By the time I signed in to the free WiFi the doctor called me through to be seen. From entering the car park to leaving again was less than half an hour.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			As I understand it there are vaccinators, who do the sticking, above them healthcare professionals who check consent, look for allergic reactions, assist with drawing up syringes, and above them clinical supervisors who help organise the sessions, manage patients with concerns, keep an eye on vaccine supply and inventory, that sort of thing. The basic vaccinator role is a fast throughput production line role, paid at £10.09 to 11.19 an hour, which is a little bit more than an entry level McDonalds job.
		
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I didn't think it was paid as I was going through St Johns and it's with them. I'd be more than happy to do anything to speed up the process, in my own time and at my own cost transport-wise. Maybe I was wrong to get to page 8 or whatever it was and see the reference requests and dip out but it was just seeming like so much hassle just to help out. 

Mind you my ex employer might well have mentioned the time I ran amok in the office with a syringe just to get my fix...


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## woofers (Dec 30, 2020)

*Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?*
Well, when my father passed away earlier this month we knew that the funeral would have restricted numbers. It was unlikely that a wake could be held and I was OK with that. A golf club said they could do something and that numbers would be limited to 15 as per government Tier 4 rules. They then said they could accommodate 20. I was NOT OK with that, I wondered what other rules this establishment might be breaking? I didn’t go.

10 days before Christmas my elderly mother (88) fell and fractured her hip. She has some other serious health conditions. She needed, and had an operation. 2 ladies on her ward tested positive for Covid. She was discharged from hospital on Boxing Day, early in my opinion, as the hospital required the beds for the increasing number of Covid cases. The NHS and support team have been fantastic at making sure that her home was suitable and arranging a carer twice a day.

On Christmas Eve I spent a few hours changing our IG setup to accommodate 2 ball bookings and 9 hole courses, and rebooking those players with reservations from the 18 hole / 4 ball set up.
On Dec 27 I was contacted to ask why people couldn’t book golf online, despite the fact that on Christmas Eve we had put out a message that bookings wouldn‘t open until the 28th.

All of this is taking place in Tier 4.
The health service is overwhelmed, there are record numbers of cases being reported daily. 
There is a new strain of the virus, and we are into a time of year when external conditions are not going to get better to help alleviate the problem.
I am at a loss to understand how this virus is spreading so fast if people follow the guidelines, but may be it’s all those who believe the rules dont apply to them, or those that push the boundaries because they can, perhaps some are asymptomatic.
I supported the relaxation of the first lockdown to allow golf to resume, but we are in a different scenario now. 
There should be another lockdown.


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## road2ruin (Dec 30, 2020)

For those with school age children this is the rumoured opening times....

Primary School (T1-3): 4/5th Jan
Key Exam Years: 11th Jan
Secondary School (T1-3): 18th Jan
Tier 4: 18/25th Jan (unclear which yet)

For me personally I have a primary school age child in a Tier 4 area so this is a nightmare. I’m self employed so cannot take time off to home school whilst my wife works for a small company who are very busy and she cannot take time off. Does this mean out daughter (6yrs) spends 2/3 weeks trying to teach herself?! Was really hoping they would see sense and keep Primary schools open.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			For those with school age children this is the rumoured opening times....

Primary School (T1-3): 4/5th Jan
Key Exam Years: 11th Jan
Secondary School (T1-3): 18th Jan
Tier 4: 18/25th Jan (unclear which yet)

For me personally I have a primary school age child in a Tier 4 area so this is a nightmare. I’m self employed so cannot take time off to home school whilst my wife works for a small company who are very busy and she cannot take time off. Does this mean out daughter (6yrs) spends 2/3 weeks trying to teach herself?! Was really hoping they would see sense and keep Primary schools open.
		
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Is this true? My wife school txt them back to work Monday their tier 4


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## road2ruin (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Is this true? My wife school txt them back to work Monday their tier 4
		
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Came from a friend whose wife is a head. So far her info has been pretty reliable about children. I don’t think we have to wait for long with the announcement to be made today just after Hancock puts the entire country into Tier 4


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Came from a friend whose wife is a head. So far her info has been pretty reliable about children. I don’t think we have to wait for long with the announcement to be made today just after Hancock puts the entire country into Tier 4
		
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It's weird as this txt was this morning from her head who had just been told by department of education that primary schools back as normal all tiers 

But could have changed


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## road2ruin (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			It's weird as this txt was this morning from her head who had just been told by department of education that primary schools back as normal all tiers

But could have changed
		
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I’d be more than happy if she was wrong with this particular bit of info. I had assumed almost secondary schools would delay by a couple of weeks but primary would be kept in as children simply cannot learn remotely at that age.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I’d be more than happy if she was wrong with this particular bit of info. I had assumed almost secondary schools would delay by a couple of weeks but primary would be kept in as children simply cannot learn remotely at that age.
		
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See our daughter isn't old enough yet but if primary closed I'd assume pre schools would have to aswell 

I think she would be fine off an extra couple weeks 

However as a key worker I do wonder if they would take her .. no idea interesting to find out


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I didn't think it was paid as I was going through St Johns and it's with them. I'd be more than happy to do anything to speed up the process, in my own time and at my own cost transport-wise. Maybe I was wrong to get to page 8 or whatever it was and see the reference requests and dip out but it was just seeming like so much hassle just to help out.

Mind you my ex employer might well have mentioned the time I ran amok in the office with a syringe just to get my fix...
		
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The jobs through NHS Professionals are paid (but not very well).


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 30, 2020)

I've been hearing rumours that teachers are to be classed as essential workers and moved up the queue for the vaccine.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 30, 2020)

We have just gone from tier 2 into tier 4.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I had exactly the same when I had a disagreement with my carving knife last weekend. Turned up at A+E, checked in with the lady on the desk and sat down in an almost empty waiting room. By the time I signed in to the free WiFi the doctor called me through to be seen. From entering the car park to leaving again was less than half an hour.
		
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How many three putts 😉


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## SteveW86 (Dec 30, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've been hearing rumours that teachers are to be classed as essential workers and moved up the queue for the vaccine.
		
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If they want to keep schools open then they should do this.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2020)

A little guidance re ones golf


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've been hearing rumours that teachers are to be classed as essential workers and moved up the queue for the vaccine.
		
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Becoming a race to the top.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 30, 2020)

saving_par said:



			We have just gone from tier 2 into tier 4.
		
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Hopefully fewer idiots up the mountains anyway. 

For those before who came from tier 4 areas were the police waiting for them at the bottom?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've been hearing rumours that teachers are to be classed as essential workers and moved up the queue for the vaccine.
		
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Teachers have always been essienal workers , key workers are

The NHS nurse my wife spoke with said they pushing for all key workers over 50 to get the vaccine asap


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			I’d be more than happy if she was wrong with this particular bit of info. I had assumed almost secondary schools would delay by a couple of weeks but primary would be kept in as children simply cannot learn remotely at that age.
		
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Looks like both of us are correct lol 

Some tier 4 areas 

Now we wait the decision what areas


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

drive4show said:



			I've been hearing rumours that teachers are to be classed as essential workers and moved up the queue for the vaccine.
		
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List of essential workers and those prioritised for testing in England:

all NHS and social care staff, including:
doctors, nurses, midwives, paramedics, social workers, care workers, and other frontline health and social care staff, including community pharmacists and their staff, students on clinical placements, volunteers and unpaid carers
the support and specialist staff required to maintain the UK’s health and social care sector
those working as part of the health and social care supply chain, including producers and distributors of medicines, and medical and personal protective equipment
NHS Blood and Transplant frontline staff (blood donation staff, specialist nurses for organ donation, staff running therapeutic apheresis services in NHS hospitals)
those providing ancillary support to NHS workers (such as hotel accommodation for NHS staff)
personal care assistants
essential public services staff, including:
prisons, probation, courts and tribunals staff, judiciary
religious staff
charities and workers delivering critical frontline services
those responsible for the management of the deceased
journalists and broadcasters covering coronavirus or providing public service broadcasting
public health and environmental staff, such as specialist community public health nursing
public safety and national security staff, including:
police and support staff
Ministry of Defence civilians, contractors and armed forces personnel (those critical to the delivery of critical defence and national security outputs and critical to the response to the coronavirus pandemic and EU transition), including defence medical staff
fire and rescue service employees (including support staff),
National Crime Agency staff, those maintaining border security, prison and probation staff and other national security roles, including those overseas
British Transport Police and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency
transport workers, including:
those who keep the air, water, road and rail passenger and freight transport modes operating during the coronavirus response
those working on transport systems through which supply chains pass
those constructing critical transport and border infrastructure through which supply chains pass
education and childcare workers, including:
support and teaching staff
social workers
specialist education professionals
critical personnel in the production and distribution of food, drink and essential goods, including:
those involved in food production, processing, distribution, sale and delivery
those critical to the provision of other essential goods, such as medical supply chain and distribution workers, and testing (such as PHE labs), and veterinary medicine
workers critical to the continuity of essential movement of goods
local and national government staff critical to the effective delivery of the coronavirus response, the delivery of and response to EU transition, or delivering essential public services, such as the payment of benefits and the certification or checking of goods for import and export (including animal products, animals, plants and food), including in government agencies and arms length bodies
public and environmental health staff, including in government agencies and arm’s length bodies
funeral industry workers
frontline local authority staff and volunteers, including
those working with vulnerable children and adults, victims of domestic abuse, and the homeless and rough sleepers (and hotel staff supporting these groups)
voluntary sector organisations providing substance misuse treatment
utilities, communication and financial services staff, including:
staff needed for essential financial services provision (including but not limited to workers in banks, building societies and financial market infrastructure)
the oil, gas, electricity and water sectors (including sewerage)
information technology and data infrastructure sector and primary industry supplies to continue during the coronavirus response
essential staff working in the civil nuclear, chemicals, telecommunications (including but not limited to network operations, field engineering, call centre staff, IT and data infrastructure, 999 and 111 essential services), postal services and delivery, payments providers and waste disposal sectors


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 30, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			For those with school age children this is the rumoured opening times....

Primary School (T1-3): 4/5th Jan
Key Exam Years: 11th Jan
Secondary School (T1-3): 18th Jan
Tier 4: 18/25th Jan (unclear which yet)

For me personally I have a primary school age child in a Tier 4 area so this is a nightmare. I’m self employed so cannot take time off to home school whilst my wife works for a small company who are very busy and she cannot take time off. Does this mean out daughter (6yrs) spends 2/3 weeks trying to teach herself?! Was really hoping they would see sense and keep Primary schools open.
		
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My daughter is a primary teacher and the things that the kids do.
Licking each other, licking the floor ( I know).
Some Teachers want schools closed while All teachers are vaccinated who want to be.
This will keep schools open long term when they do open.
Atm teachers and school staff are very much in the middle but should be top of the vaccine list just after frontline nhs staff.


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## road2ruin (Dec 30, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter is a primary teacher and the things that the kids do.
Licking each other, licking the floor ( I know).
		
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Oddly my experience is completely different. Due to the hand washing and the hand sanitiser usage my daughters year has never been healthier!! She’s 6 (Yr 2) and usually covered in snot from October through March as they pass colds to one another however this year she hasn’t had a single one!


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## Fade and Die (Dec 30, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I had exactly the same when I had a disagreement with my carving knife last weekend. Turned up at A+E, checked in with the lady on the desk and sat down in an almost empty waiting room. By the time I signed in to the free WiFi the doctor called me through to be seen. From entering the car park to leaving again was less than half an hour.
		
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Add another one to this, we was up the Royal Free yesterday, place was extremely quiet, even A&E was pretty deserted. Although my local hospital “Queens” in Romford had ambulances queuing up outside apparently treating COVID patients.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			Oddly my experience is completely different. Due to the hand washing and the hand sanitiser usage my daughters year has never been healthier!! She’s 6 (Yr 2) and usually covered in snot from October through March as they pass colds to one another however this year she hasn’t had a single one!
		
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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 34228

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Funny my wife's borough was putting out their open this morning 

What a rubbish head


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2020)

What’s all this need for a vaccine, China appear to have eradicated COVID without a jab and N Korea got away with it completely.


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## anotherdouble (Dec 30, 2020)

As I heard nothing to the Contrary I take it we are still on a 2 week review for tiers. I know they mentioned 18th Jan but that seem to be purely the date for the next ONS data release.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What’s all this need for a vaccine, China appear to have eradicated COVID without a jab and N Korea got away with it completely.

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Their general population listen to the gov

Or else


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## Imurg (Dec 30, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			As I heard nothing to the Contrary I take it we are still on a 2 week review for tiers. I know they mentioned 18th Jan but that seem to be purely the date for the next ONS data release.
		
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Thats what I'm assuming. 
Practically written off January already..


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## anotherdouble (Dec 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Thats what I'm assuming.
Practically written off January already..
		
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+1 to that😩


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## road2ruin (Dec 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 34228

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We’ve had a lucky escape, we’re in Surrey although on the Greater London border so we’ll be going back on 4th January all being well. I would be worried if I were in one of the above areas as I just cannot see the infection levels reducing enough in the near future to allow the schools to open.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 30, 2020)

road2ruin said:



			We’ve had a lucky escape, we’re in Surrey although on the Greater London border so we’ll be going back on 4th January all being well. I would be worried if I were in one of the above areas as I just cannot see the infection levels reducing enough in the near future to allow the schools to open.
		
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The framework my sister sent says childcare and early years should open

Who knows


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 30, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			What’s all this need for a vaccine, China appear to have eradicated COVID without a jab and N Korea got away with it completely.

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Like others on here I have a relative over in China. Life is back to normal, he saw the new Wonder Woman film at the cinema last week after eating at a restaurant 😠............except they can't really go anywhere. Not between regions, not out of the country. Well they can but then they have to isolate in a way that would not be tolerated here. The moment they open up they will be goosed, as will other countries in a similar situation.

Unless...........they also get vaccinated, which at this point there is no chat about. I've told my relative already that it will be added into the water 😳. He laughed nervously at this comment 😆

N.Korea


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## Imurg (Dec 30, 2020)

Rona ain't stupid..it wouldn't dare go to N Korea


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 30, 2020)

Staffing levels struggling now we've escalated. Went in for a couple of hours first thing and staff are knackered, down and working on empty. We are at risk of being overrun and we've escalated into another area (14 extra beds) so we're at 36 hot beds (covid) and 12 for non covid. One hot and one cold bed free as at 9.00am. Things are bleaker than March


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 30, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Staffing levels struggling now we've escalated. Went in for a couple of hours first thing and staff are knackered, down and working on empty. We are at risk of being overrun and we've escalated into another area (14 extra beds) so we're at 36 hot beds (covid) and 12 for non covid. One hot and one cold bed free as at 9.00am. Things are bleaker than March
		
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MK General currently has over 200 patients with COVID as of today.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			MK General currently has over 200 patients with COVID as of today.
		
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I'm not surprised. I wasn't in long enough to see the totals from the bed meeting and couldn't be asked to go through all my emails (a job that can wait until I am officially back on Monday). Rota for the weekend not looking good and already offering enhanced rates to try and get staff to come in. Agencies struggling as people don't want to work New Years Eve (although no-one can go anywhere or do anything so not understanding that one) and I think it'll be seat of the pants stuff for most of January


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## fundy (Dec 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			MK General currently has over 200 patients with COVID as of today.
		
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how many beds does the hospital have in total? memory serves me right its a big old hospital


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 30, 2020)

fundy said:



			how many beds does the hospital have in total? memory serves me right its a big old hospital
		
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Circa 500, approx 40% full of COVID infections.


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## fundy (Dec 30, 2020)

need_my_wedge said:



			Circa 500, approx 40% full of COVID infections.
		
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thanks for that, surprised it wasnt more than that tbh, must just be the 1/2 mile corridor you had to go down to get to xray 😢


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## williamalex1 (Dec 30, 2020)

Feeling sad that some of my family can't get together this year and celebrate like we use to  . Worse still, the way it's worked out my daughter will be isolated on her own at Hogmanay


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## AdamW (Dec 31, 2020)

Absolutely ridiculous second dosage of vaccine been delayed up to twelve weeks from first : 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cond-stage-nhs-vaccinations-delayed-across-uk

How is that even ethical going against the vaccines developers / scientists guidelines on how it should be taken?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Absolutely ridiculous second dosage of vaccine been delayed up to twelve weeks from first : 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cond-stage-nhs-vaccinations-delayed-across-uk

How is that even ethical going against the vaccines developers / scientists guidelines on how it should be taken?
		
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They said this morning they are basically doing what Blair said to do 2 weeks ago

Give as many people the first jab as possible as it gives a layer of protection and would enable restrictions to end sooner


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Absolutely ridiculous second dosage of vaccine been delayed up to twelve weeks from first :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cond-stage-nhs-vaccinations-delayed-across-uk

How is that even ethical going against the vaccines developers / scientists guidelines on how it should be taken?
		
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From what I read you get most of your immunity from the initial jab with the second just topping up. Surely it therefore makes sense to get the first lot out to as many as possible rather than having a smaller number who are fully immune.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 31, 2020)

Really sad but annoying story this one.

Friend of my daughters - hasn't taken a blind bit of notice of most restrictions.   Gets together at Christmas with his family - around 15 of them so puts them in the same category of stupidity.    He then falls ill on Boxing Day and gets a positive test.   One of his grand-parents falls ill a couple of days later and died yesterday from Covid.    His first post on social media - blames the Government and the NHS for not doing more for him.

What honestly can you do?


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## ScienceBoy (Dec 31, 2020)

looking at the numbers I am surprised Cambridgeshire Primary school children are going back.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Absolutely ridiculous second dosage of vaccine been delayed up to twelve weeks from first :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cond-stage-nhs-vaccinations-delayed-across-uk

How is that even ethical going against the vaccines developers / scientists guidelines on how it should be taken?
		
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The vaccine developers will advise on effectivity of different dosage regimes in respect of an individual developing COVID-19 and reducing their transmission; the epidemiologists will advise on strategies for taking advantage of the different regimes with the objective of controlling and reducing the spread of infection between individuals within a community.


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Absolutely ridiculous second dosage of vaccine been delayed up to twelve weeks from first :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cond-stage-nhs-vaccinations-delayed-across-uk

How is that even ethical going against the vaccines developers / scientists guidelines on how it should be taken?
		
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Yeah, sounds absolutetely ludicrous this.

"Explaining the rationale for the change, the *chief medical officers* *said in a statement*, quoted by Stevens in his letter: “*Prioritising the first doses* of vaccine for *as many people as possible* on the priority list will *protect the greatest number of at-risk* people overall in the shortest possible time and *will have the greatest impact on reducing mortality*, severe disease and hospitalisations and in* protecting the NHS and equivalent health services*."

Bonkers.


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## Billysboots (Dec 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Really sad but annoying story this one.

Friend of my daughters - hasn't taken a blind bit of notice of most restrictions.   Gets together at Christmas with his family - around 15 of them so puts them in the same category of stupidity.    He then falls ill on Boxing Day and gets a positive test.   One of his grand-parents falls ill a couple of days later and died yesterday from Covid.    His first post on social media - blames the Government and the NHS for not doing more for him.

What honestly can you do?
		
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You can’t do anything. Far too many people have viewed this pandemic, since the start, as everyone else’s problem.

Unfortunately the internet is full of tragedies like this one and it matters not how many such stories there are - they make not a blind bit of difference to people like this who, even now, think this virus can’t get them.


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## AdamW (Dec 31, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah, sounds absolutetely ludicrous this.

"Explaining the rationale for the change, the *chief medical officers* *said in a statement*, quoted by Stevens in his letter: “*Prioritising the first doses* of vaccine for *as many people as possible* on the priority list will *protect the greatest number of at-risk* people overall in the shortest possible time and *will have the greatest impact on reducing mortality*, severe disease and hospitalisations and in* protecting the NHS and equivalent health services*."

Bonkers.
		
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Pfizer are not happy about it.

It is unethical plain and simple the people who have already had the first shot did not agree to having the second against the manufactures advice.

So yes it is bonkers.

"This schedule was not what was trialled, as Pfizer/BioNTech immediately pointed out. Their phase 3 final trial showed people began to be protected from 12 days after one vaccination – but nearly all were given two shots within three weeks. “There are no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days,” the company said."


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## Lump (Dec 31, 2020)

A family friend has just died, his death has been put down to COVID.
He was diagnosed with COVID early on( first lockdown) but it was actually un-diagnosed cancer that was making him ill. Turns out he had stage 4 cancer. Less than 2 months from finding out to when he passed.
This is why I don’t believe the death numbers are a true reflection of what’s happening.
We are now at the point where un-diagnosed illnesses are taking life’s due to no treatment and being ticked up to COVID as they may have had a positive test within  28 days.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Really sad but annoying story this one.

Friend of my daughters - hasn't taken a blind bit of notice of most restrictions.   Gets together at Christmas with his family - around 15 of them so puts them in the same category of stupidity.    He then falls ill on Boxing Day and gets a positive test.   One of his grand-parents falls ill a couple of days later and died yesterday from Covid.    His first post on social media - blames the Government and the NHS for not doing more for him.

What honestly can you do?
		
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What should be done and what the law permits you to do are two very different things. 

I suppose the limit would be calling him out in the same social media.

The level of stupidity is mind blowing.


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## Dando (Dec 31, 2020)

Lump said:



			A family friend has just died, his death has been put down to COVID.
He was diagnosed with COVID early on( first lockdown) but it was actually un-diagnosed cancer that was making him ill. Turns out he had stage 4 cancer. Less than 2 months from finding out to when he passed.
This is why I don’t believe the death numbers are a true reflection of what’s happening.
We are now at the point where un-diagnosed illnesses are taking life’s due to no treatment and being ticked up to COVID as they may have had a positive test within  28 days.
		
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totally agree with you. how can we believe the death numbers when anyone dying within 28 days of a positive result has Covid as the cause of death.


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Pfizer are not happy about it.

It is unethical plain and simple the people who have already had the first shot did not agree to having the second against the manufactures advice.

So yes it is bonkers.

"This schedule was not what was trialled, as Pfizer/BioNTech immediately pointed out. Their phase 3 final trial showed people began to be protected from 12 days after one vaccination – but nearly all were given two shots within three weeks. “There are no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days,” the company said."
		
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Now, I'm no doctor, but if the chief medical officers and other scientists around the world argues for this solution I'm happy to go with it. Of course Pfizer is going to say what they say. They haven't tested it in this way, so therefore they can't say it's gonna work as well as the trial. They're covering all angles, as they should.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2020)

Dando said:



			totally agree with you. how can we believe the death numbers when anyone dying within 28 days of a positive result has Covid as the cause of death.
		
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Ethan amongst others have explained this numerous times.  A stake has to be put in the ground somewhere and numbers are measured from that stake.  The stake may not be in the ‘right’ or ‘best’ place - but as it is difficult to precisely define that position it is best we just have one - and as long as we do not move the stake then we can see how numbers are changing relative to that stake. And as much as anything else when looking at how measures are impacting numbers it is relative changes as well as absolute numbers that are important.

After all is not the par of a hole just that - a stake in the ground based upon some criteria against which we measure our own performance in relative terms.  Our golfing stake in the ground for a hole is not what Rory would score on average were he to play it 20 times; nor is it what a beginner would score on average - in both scenarios our own relative performance would be quite different - but we could measure our change...and that of our fellows.


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## DRW (Dec 31, 2020)

AdamW said:



			Absolutely ridiculous second dosage of vaccine been delayed up to twelve weeks from first :

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cond-stage-nhs-vaccinations-delayed-across-uk

How is that even ethical going against the vaccines developers / scientists guidelines on how it should be taken?
		
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I would perhaps look at it another way, with an example.

There is an ultra scare resource, lets call it food and you have 2 loaves of bread.

One person needs 2 loaves of bread to survive normally 12 weeks.

However You have 2 people to keep alive for 12 weeks.

Do you give both loaves to one person, or perhaps give one loaf of bread to each of those 2 people and hopefully keep both alive for longer, until the next loaves becomes available. It may mean both will become hungry/slighter iller than if they had two loaves but....

I know what I would do and what is really ethical to do.

In support of that, I did uploaded a link to a scientific paper done about a month ago iirc, that supports that theory with the Pzifer vaccines and that one dose is a good thing to do and provides alot of protection. As well as the Oxford vaccine 2nd dose was given at various timing during the trials, again I uploaded their own Lancet paper that confirms that yesterday to this website.

Hope that helps.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			What should be done and what the law permits you to do are two very different things. 

I suppose the limit would be calling him out in the same social media.

The level of stupidity is mind blowing.
		
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Junior Shark has told me she has several times gone to put something and then thought better and deleted it.   He used a phrase "my granddad fought in the war and this is the way he was treated" - apparently his grandad would have been two in 1945.     She is expecting a post later "we should get together to celebrate his life because it's what he would have wanted".   No what he would have wanted would be to still be alive.


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## woofers (Dec 31, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			What should be done and what the law permits you to do are two very different things. 

Click to expand...

Like Staying at Home, or going out to play golf ?


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## woofers (Dec 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			No what he would have wanted would be to still be alive.
		
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I was sent the following “If we isolate now, when we can meet again no one will be missing”


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## Billysboots (Dec 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Junior Shark has told me she has several times gone to put something and then thought better and deleted it.   He used a phrase "my granddad fought in the war and this is the way he was treated" - apparently his grandad would have been two in 1945.     She is expecting a post later "we should get together to celebrate his life because it's what he would have wanted".   No what he would have wanted would be to still be alive.
		
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That attitude absolutely boils my urine.

His grandad hasn’t been let down by the NHS or government. He’s been let down by his own family.

This fella is either a thick skinned imbecile or is suffering a massive guilt trip, knowing he has contributed towards this awful outcome, but seeking to blame others in order to purge that guilt.

As I don’t know him it is impossible for me to say which.


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## Backache (Dec 31, 2020)

Dando said:



			totally agree with you. how can we believe the death numbers when anyone dying within 28 days of a positive result has Covid as the cause of death.
		
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Everyone who dies within 28 days of their first covid test does not automatically have Covid as a cause of death.
The cause of death is what is put down on a death certificate and is what the doctor caring for someone thinks they died from.
If a doctor does not think they died of covid they will not have covid entered on the death certificate and as far as the ONS are concerned they did not die of covid and will not be counted in the final numbers.
Where they will be counted is in the quick reckoning used to produce daily updates because it is a quick way of getting an idea of what the mortality is on an ongoing basis.


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			That attitude absolutely boils my urine.

His grandad hasn’t been let down by the NHS or government. He’s been let down by his own family.

This fella is either a thick skinned imbecile or is suffering a massive guilt trip, knowing he has contributed towards this awful outcome, but seeking to blame others in order to purge that guilt.

As I don’t know him it is impossible for me to say which.
		
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She's just unfriended him - she is as annoyed (insert actual phrase here) as we all seem to be.


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 31, 2020)

Here's an update from a parallel universe, also known as Sweden.

Sweden's strategy is still mostly down to "recommendations".

Don't meet other people from outside your household, but if you do, please do it outside, but if that doesn't work you can meet up indoors...

Don't go to shops, bigger shopping centres or travel anywhere if not needed. The Swedish prime minister has even held press conferences in the last month actually having a go at the Swedish people for not following the recommendations.

Now, of course that only goes for the regular people of Sweden.

19th December - The chief executive of the "Community protection and preparedness", Dan Eliasson, a part of Swedens authorities, travels to Mallorca for a christmas holiday.

20th December - The Swedish prime minister, Stefan Lofven, goes to one of Stockholms biggest and most crowded shopping centres, no mask (as that isn't even recommended), to buy a watch.

26th December - Swedens minsiter of Justice and Migration, Morgan Johansson, goes bargain hunting in a shopping mall in Lund.

Christmas - Swedens finance minister, Magdalena Andersson, goes for a ski holiday in northern Sweden.

Astonishing.


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Here's an update from a parallel universe, also known as Sweden.

Sweden's strategy is still mostly down to "recommendations".

Don't meet other people from outside your household, but if you do, please do it outside, but if that doesn't work you can meet up indoors...

Don't go to shops, bigger shopping centres or travel anywhere if not needed. The Swedish prime minister has even held press conferences in the last month actually having a go at the Swedish people for not following the recommendations.

Now, of course that only goes for the regular people of Sweden.

19th December - The chief executive of the "Community protection and preparedness", Dan Eliasson, a part of Swedens authorities, travels to Mallorca for a christmas holiday.

20th December - The Swedish prime minister, Stefan Lofven, goes to one of Stockholms biggest and most crowded shopping centres, no mask (as that isn't even recommended), to buy a watch.

26th December - Swedens minsiter of Justice and Migration, Morgan Johansson, goes bargain hunting in a shopping mall in Lund.

Christmas - Swedens finance minister, Magdalena Andersson, goes for a ski holiday in northern Sweden.

Astonishing.
		
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Nice to see that it's not just our politicians then......


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Nice to see that it's not just our politicians then......
		
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Isn't it just? And these are the absolute top top people were talking of. It drives me absolutely insane. It also makes me despise these hypocrites which if put into words would black ball me from here.


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## chrisd (Dec 31, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Nice to see that it's not just our politicians then......
		
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Are you allowed to use the word "Politicians"


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Are you allowed to use the word "Politicians"
		
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Didn't want to give Him the opportunity of giving me another infraction


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Really sad but annoying story this one.

Friend of my daughters - hasn't taken a blind bit of notice of most restrictions.   Gets together at Christmas with his family - around 15 of them so puts them in the same category of stupidity.    He then falls ill on Boxing Day and gets a positive test.   One of his grand-parents falls ill a couple of days later and died yesterday from Covid.    His first post on social media - blames the Government and the NHS for not doing more for him.

What honestly can you do?
		
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I mentioned to Missis T when we were going into the second lockdown to “ save Christmas”. I wonder who will be the first to blame a n other when someone dies from the Covid Due to having Xmas together. It was always going to happen.
our Xmas Consisted of seeing the grandkids who we look after and that’s it. We said point blank we are not being stupid. Lo and behold the Tash household is now riddled with Covid. I spent last night ringing me brother to do me mum and dads shopping. Ave told them they have to isolate again. Hopefully this vaccine is within the next month for them.
PS, re your post, the family of the grand parent who has passed away. They got there wish, they spent there last Christmas together. Over the years they have to live with the guilt of there stupidity.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Really sad but annoying story this one.

Friend of my daughters - hasn't taken a blind bit of notice of most restrictions.   Gets together at Christmas with his family - around 15 of them so puts them in the same category of stupidity.    He then falls ill on Boxing Day and gets a positive test.   One of his grand-parents falls ill a couple of days later and died yesterday from Covid.    His first post on social media - blames the Government and the NHS for not doing more for him.

What honestly can you do?
		
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I am sure that even the most self-unaware cretin must know they may have had a hand in that death, and is deflecting.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55479018

nail on head.


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2020)

In years to come, today's children and young people will judge their parents behaviour during 2020/21 but will sadly forget their own.


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## IainP (Dec 31, 2020)

Lump said:



			A family friend has just died, his death has been put down to COVID.
He was diagnosed with COVID early on( first lockdown) but it was actually un-diagnosed cancer that was making him ill. Turns out he had stage 4 cancer. Less than 2 months from finding out to when he passed.
This is why I don’t believe the death numbers are a true reflection of what’s happening.
We are now at the point where un-diagnosed illnesses are taking life’s due to no treatment and being ticked up to COVID as they may have had a positive test within  28 days.
		
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Sad news.
Are you worried the figures reported are too high because of this?
I think most believe these exceptions are more than balanced out by other factors.
E.g.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2020)

Lump said:



			A family friend has just died, his death has been put down to COVID.
He was diagnosed with COVID early on( first lockdown) but it was actually un-diagnosed cancer that was making him ill. Turns out he had stage 4 cancer. Less than 2 months from finding out to when he passed.
This is why I don’t believe the death numbers are a true reflection of what’s happening.
We are now at the point where un-diagnosed illnesses are taking life’s due to no treatment and being ticked up to COVID as they may have had a positive test within  28 days.
		
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That is a rare occurrence, as are the other 'had a positive test then got hit by a bus' type examples cited on social media as an attempt to riddle the figures. People die of unsuspected cancer all the time, just not very many of them. People also die with cancer but where it isn't the cause of death. This is quite common for prostate cancer, for example. 

Anyway, in the general population, the background risk of death in the next 28 days, the Covid definition period, is very very small, even for elderly people, for example, less than 1% at age 80, and massively smaller at younger ages, so you can safely assume that the number of people said to die of Covid but who died of something they would have died of anyway if Covid had never happened, is very few indeed. 

The official Covid number is of most value as a trend over time. We want to know if a similar number, a greater number or fewer people are dying with time. The systematic errors in that estimate due to other causes or test problems are more or less constant, so the underlying trend is still valid. Note also that there are people not included in that number but who died of Covid. That includes people who are ill in ICU or hospital for more than 28 days, and those who died without having a test. I am pretty certain there are more missed than wrongly included. 

The death certificate for your friend, could, depending how things panned out either Primary cause of death cancer, with contributing factor of Covid, or the other way round.


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## SteveJay (Dec 31, 2020)

Dando said:



			totally agree with you. how can we believe the death numbers when anyone dying within 28 days of a positive result has Covid as the cause of death.
		
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Careful you will face the wrath of some on here coming up with valid questions like that!!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Dec 31, 2020)

All this discussion over how the figures are calculated seems rather irrelevant. 

Whether it's  60,000 or 70,000 there surely is no question that the pandemic is taking a great toll and an obsession with some perverse league table is unlikely to help much in overcoming the virus. 

Anyway just how many people do  we think have been knocked down by these mythical buses?


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			Careful you will face the wrath of some on here coming up with valid questions like that!!
		
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You will face some facts and some decades of experience dealing with and understanding epidemiological data, you mean.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			That is a rare occurrence, as are the other 'had a positive test then got hit by a bus' type examples cited on social media as an attempt to riddle the figures. People die of unsuspected cancer all the time, just not very many of them. People also die with cancer but where it isn't the cause of death. This is quite common for prostate cancer, for example.

Anyway, in the general population, the background risk of death in the next 28 days, the Covid definition period, is very very small, even for elderly people, for example, less than 1% at age 80, and massively smaller at younger ages, so you can safely assume that the number of people said to die of Covid but who died of something they would have died of anyway if Covid had never happened, is very few indeed.

The official Covid number is of most value as a trend over time. We want to know if a similar number, a greater number or fewer people are dying with time. The systematic errors in that estimate due to other causes or test problems are more or less constant, so the underlying trend is still valid. Note also that there are people not included in that number but who died of Covid. That includes people who are ill in ICU or hospital for more than 28 days, and those who died without having a test. I am pretty certain there are more missed than wrongly included.

The death certificate for your friend, could, depending how things panned out either Primary cause of death cancer, with contributing factor of Covid, or the other way round.
		
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Ethan, Can you clarify that Covid-19 has to be put on the death certificate, regardless off cause of death, if the person has tested positive in previous 28 days as it is one of the 5 “notifiable diseases” or something like that? Sorry to be vague, I’m sure there was an article I read somewhere saying certain illness’s MUST be recorded regardless of whether they were the cause of death.


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## larmen (Dec 31, 2020)

Lump said:



			A family friend has just died, his death has been put down to COVID.
He was diagnosed with COVID early on( first lockdown) but it was actually un-diagnosed cancer that was making him ill. Turns out he had stage 4 cancer. Less than 2 months from finding out to when he passed.
This is why I don’t believe the death numbers are a true reflection of what’s happening.
We are now at the point where un-diagnosed illnesses are taking life’s due to no treatment and being ticked up to COVID as they may have had a positive test within  28 days.
		
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It’s about a consistent way of counting. You can’t get 100% right in terms of died of COVID vs died and also had COVID, but by having something consistent you can trend.

And having something not diagnosed before because COVID didn’t make it possible, it might just be a COVID death due to that. A lot of people pointed out that routine tests were falling behind since March and deaths would be following that.


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## Backache (Dec 31, 2020)

If someone has a positive covid test and is well and two weeks later has a road traffic accident and dies  They would not have Covid entred on their death certificate. It would be recorded in the regular updates of people who have died of covid  at the time of registration. It would not be recorded in the regular ONS of deaths where covid is mentioned on the death certificate.

If someone contracts covid and tests positive and then spends a month in ITU and dies they will have Covid recorded on their death certificate but will not be reported in the 28 day regular updates but will be reported in the ONS figures.

If someone is seriously ill with terminal cancer and contracts covid before dieing it would usually be recorded as a death with cancer as the primary diagnosis but Covid as a contributing factor and depending on the timing may be recorded in both figures. However the ONS also distinguish between cases where COvid is the primary cause of death and those where it is a contributory but not primary cause of death. 
The last time I saw figures I think it was around 80-90% where Covid was the primary cause of death,


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 31, 2020)

Backache said:



			If someone has a positive covid test and is well and two weeks later has a road traffic accident and dies  *They would not have Covid entred on their death certificate.* It would be recorded in the regular updates of people who have died of covid  at the time of registration. It would not be recorded in the regular ONS of deaths where covid is mentioned on the death certificate.

If someone contracts covid and tests positive and then spends a month in ITU and dies they will have Covid recorded on their death certificate but will not be reported in the 28 day regular updates but will be reported in the ONS figures.

If someone is seriously ill with terminal cancer and contracts covid before dieing it would usually be recorded as a death with cancer as the primary diagnosis but Covid as a contributing factor and depending on the timing may be recorded in both figures. However the ONS also distinguish between cases where COvid is the primary cause of death and those where it is a contributory but not primary cause of death.
The last time I saw figures I think it was around 80-90% where Covid was the primary cause of death,
		
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This is the bit I am confused on, I totally agree and understand the cause of death is not Covid, but I am sure it has to be recorded somewhere (I thought death certificate, so apologise for lack of knowledge) so the body is handled correctly, ie, in line with infectious disease control etc.
So my question is, If not the death certificate, where is it shown?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2020)

Had a phone call off the NHS track and trace team. They were after Missis T but she was still tucked up in bed so I answered the questions.
He said “ I know it sounds a silly question but will you isolate for the duration “. “ of course we will” I said. He then said” you would be surprised how many don't”.😳


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## Slime (Dec 31, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Really sad but annoying story this one.

Friend of my daughters - hasn't taken a blind bit of notice of most restrictions.   Gets together at Christmas with his family - around 15 of them so puts them in the same category of stupidity.    He then falls ill on Boxing Day and gets a positive test.   One of his grand-parents falls ill a couple of days later and died yesterday from Covid.    His first post on social media - blames the Government and the NHS for not doing more for him.

What honestly can you do?
		
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Shoot him?
Or maybe explain how he was instrumental in the death of his grand-parent ................................ then shoot him!


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## Pathetic Shark (Dec 31, 2020)

Slime said:



			Shoot him?
Or maybe explain how he was instrumental in the death of his grand-parent ................................ then shoot him!
		
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But it would count towards the Covid death total as he has tested positive in the past 28 days.  Even though the murder weapon was still smoking.


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## IainP (Dec 31, 2020)

Couple of different news items from Belgium :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...reak-hits-belgian-care-home-after-santa-visit

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-wh...deeming-chocolate-and-beer-essential-12174363


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## Backache (Dec 31, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			This is the bit I am confused on, I totally agree and understand the cause of death is not Covid, but I am sure it has to be recorded somewhere (I thought death certificate, so apologise for lack of knowledge) so the body is handled correctly, ie, in line with infectious disease control etc.
So my question is, If not the death certificate, where is it shown?
		
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Often staff don't have access to the death certificate anyway. There should be a form accompanying the body saying it is a potential source of infection.


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2020)




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## Old Skier (Dec 31, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a phone call off the NHS track and trace team. They were after Missis T but she was still tucked up in bed so I answered the questions.
He said “ I know it sounds a silly question but will you isolate for the duration “. “ of course we will” I said. He then said” you would be surprised how many don't”.😳
		
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My brother has been getting around 3 calls a day from track and trace since he got tested positive.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2020)

Got to say that seeing the Corona cases that are being reported at the moment, couple with this new strain. Ave an horrible feeling the poo is gonna hit the fan within a week when the Xmas infection rates take effect. Hope am wrong.


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## anotherdouble (Dec 31, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Got to say that seeing the Corona cases that are being reported at the moment, couple with this new strain. Ave an horrible feeling the poo is gonna hit the fan within a week when the Xmas infection rates take effect. Hope am wrong.
		
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Don’t think you will be. Another 55k today


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2020)

anotherdouble said:



			Don’t think you will be. Another 55k today
		
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I think they could well get higher, with higher cases going to hospital ☹️


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## Old Skier (Dec 31, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			I think they could well get higher, with higher cases going to hospital ☹️
		
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Patients coming from the SE to Plymouth Derriford Hispital.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Patients coming from the SE to Plymouth Derriford Hispital.
		
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☹️


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## Billysboots (Dec 31, 2020)

I do view with scepticism the online vaccination calculator, referred to by some here a week or so ago. But having looked a fortnight ago and again today, some basic maths is already starting to cause me some concern.

Based on my details, when I last looked the calculator suggested a vaccination date for me some time between February and the end of March. Inputting exactly the same information now, it is saying some time between late June and mid-September. And that’s based on one million jabs a week (currently nowhere near), with me being in the priority  group of recipients, as I have an underlying condition.

Early days, but if remotely accurate it would suggest some rapid acceleration of the roll out is needed if the priority categories, never mind everyone else, are going to be vaccinated by next winter.


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## Billysboots (Dec 31, 2020)

Kaz said:



			When I looked a week or so ago it was projecting June for me. Now looking like 2022. It's not encouraging and, as you say, the actual vaccination rate isn't even at the million/week they are basing their estimates on. 

Click to expand...

Having just input some creative details ( I’ve morphed into a 95 year old care home resident who shielded because of an underlying condition), it is still saying April.

Having looked closer at it, the calculator is now indicating when people will have received BOTH doses of a two shot vaccine, so incorporates at least a 12 week delay given the current approach.

I think it’s time to sack off the calculator, sit back and simply wait to get the call. Worrying about it won’t change anything.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			Having just input some creative details ( I’ve morphed into a 95 year old care home resident who shielded because of an underlying condition), it is still saying April.

Having looked closer at it, the calculator is now indicating when people will have received BOTH doses of a two shot vaccine, so incorporates at least a 12 week delay given the current approach.

I think it’s time to sack off the calculator, sit back and simply wait to get the call. Worrying about it won’t change anything.
		
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The vaccine is not really aimed at us healthy ones though - it’s more about getting those vunerable ones and health care workers etc protected in the first instance to help us start to get back to a bit more normality 

I don’t think people under 50 will start to get it until late in the year


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 31, 2020)

No room in ICU. We have every bed taken. Nowhere else to escalate to now. Not sure what the plan is other than trying to move the less seriously ill patients in the hospital to other trusts but Monday is looking like a day from hell before I get in


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## Billysboots (Dec 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The vaccine is not really aimed at us healthy ones though - it’s more about getting those vunerable ones and health care workers etc protected in the first instance to help us start to get back to a bit more normality 

I don’t think people under 50 will start to get it until late in the year
		
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Totally agree, but I’m in the 16-64 with an underlying condition bracket, so reasonably high up the list.

The Oxford roll out will doubtless help, but this really does need to be all hands on deck to speed the process up.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 31, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The vaccine is not really aimed at us healthy ones though - it’s more about getting those vunerable ones and health care workers etc protected in the first instance to help us start to get back to a bit more normality 

I don’t think people under 50 will start to get it until late in the year
		
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Too right. They said recently if they vaccinate as many as they can over 50 and underlying conditions the NHs can deal with the rest if they get it


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2020)

Trying to calm Mrs SILH down at the moment as she’s not long off the phone with a friend who has her youngest at a local private school and as he has a kid in their class whose parents are GPs her friend reckons the GPs will sort it so that the teachers at the private school get prioritised for getting vaccinated.  My Mrs blew her top when her friend suggested that she was being naive to think it wouldn’t happen as money always speaks and will speak in getting the vaccine to those who have the money.  My Mrs is still steaming...


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## Old Skier (Dec 31, 2020)

Kaz said:



			When I looked a week or so ago it was projecting June for me. Now looking like 2022. It's not encouraging and, as you say, the actual vaccination rate isn't even at the million/week they are basing their estimates on. 

Click to expand...

We only managed to do just under 1000 in 3 days., poor really.


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## Billysboots (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trying to calm Mrs SILH down at the moment as she’s not long off the phone with a friend who has her youngest at a local private school and as he has a kid in their class whose parents are GPS her friend reckons the GPs will sort it so that the teachers at the private school get prioritised for getting vaccinated.  My Mrs blew her top when her friend suggested that she was being naive to think it wouldn’t happen as money always speaks and will speak in getting the vaccine to those who have the money.  My Mrs is still steaming...
		
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I think any GP who prioritises anyone on anything other than medical grounds will find themselves deep in the smelly stuff with the GMC.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think any GP who prioritises anyone on anything other than medical grounds will find themselves deep in the smelly stuff with the GMC.
		
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It depends if the private sector can source the vaccine from the manufacturer.
“It dosnt take anything from the NHS.”
That’s the standard drivel when people want to use money to jump the que.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think any GP who prioritises anyone on anything other than medical grounds will find themselves deep in the smelly stuff with the GMC.
		
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Which is what my Mrs said...but no - her friend is convinced that the GP parents will ensure the teachers at that school will get their vaccinations in advance of any wider state school teacher vaccination programme.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			It depends if the private sector can source the vaccine from the manufacturer.
“It dosnt take anything from the NHS.”
That’s the standard drivel when people want to use money to jump the que.
		
Click to expand...

Is a GP practice in the NHS or private sector...?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is a GP practice in the NHS or private sector...?
		
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Some  GPs have private patients as well.
The sourcing of the vaccine would be the problem imo.


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## Old Skier (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what my Mrs said...but no - her friend is convinced that the GP parents will ensure the teachers at that school will get their vaccinations in advance of any wider state school teacher vaccination programme.
		
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Nothing being released into the private sector according to the manufacturer's.  I'm sure some crooked people out there will try it on.


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## IainP (Dec 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Exeter nightingale hospital has been in use for non COVID patients for around a month.
		
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@anotherdouble 
Looks like 3 others are in use, plus London being readied 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55503536


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing being released into the private sector according to the manufacturer's.  I'm sure some crooked people out there will try it on.
		
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Not sure I would buy a vaccine off Del Boy


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## anotherdouble (Dec 31, 2020)

IainP said:



@anotherdouble
Looks like 3 others are in use, plus London being readied
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55503536[/QUOTE
makes total sense especially after the numbers for the last 2 days👍
		
Click to expand...


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## SaintHacker (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trying to calm Mrs SILH down at the moment as she’s not long off the phone with a friend who has her youngest at a local private school and as he has a kid in their class whose parents are GPs her friend reckons the GPs will sort it so that the teachers at the private school get prioritised for getting vaccinated.  My Mrs blew her top when her friend suggested that she was being naive to think it wouldn’t happen as money always speaks and will speak in getting the vaccine to those who have the money.  My Mrs is still steaming...
		
Click to expand...

Ha a message from our MD yesterday that they are talking to the Department of Transport about getting us drivers prioritised to get it asap. Not sure how I feel about that, yes I would gladly take it if offered but do I really need it over others? My wife for instance works in pre school. 1st lockdown they stayed open to look after key workers children of all ages, I would put her and her colleagues above my need.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 31, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I think any GP who prioritises anyone on anything other than medical grounds will find themselves deep in the smelly stuff with the GMC.
		
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Exactly. Think about it. Are two GPs going to risk their careers, th ir reputation in the community, possible criminal proceedings for diverting NHS resources( if it involves that ).
It isn't as if this is a secret, and wouldn't come out. If true, it would be bound to.
Sounds like some have speculated on what they think the GPs  could do, and  it's grown from there , facebook style.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. Think about it. Are two GPs going to risk their careers, th ir reputation in the community, possible criminal proceedings for diverting NHS resources( if it involves that ).
It isn't as if this is a secret, and wouldn't come out. If true, it would be bound to.
Sounds like some have speculated on what they think the GPs  could do, and  it's grown from there , facebook style.
		
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This would happen if a “health passport” were to come to light. 
People getting who don’t really need it before those who do need it. 
Heck if it meant me going back to normal quicker with an adverse affect on somebody I didn’t know id slip some notes to get it before X Y or Z or got it. 

Money talks, its the system we created. Have more more money, have more advantage. And we love the system.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trying to calm Mrs SILH down at the moment as she’s not long off the phone with a friend who has her youngest at a local private school and as he has a kid in their class whose parents are GPs her friend reckons the GPs will sort it so that the teachers at the private school get prioritised for getting vaccinated.  My Mrs blew her top when her friend suggested that she was being naive to think it wouldn’t happen as money always speaks and will speak in getting the vaccine to those who have the money.  My Mrs is still steaming...
		
Click to expand...

Sorry SILH, but that very much smacks of being one of those "the-son-of-a-friend-of-someone-I-know" stories that have plagued us all the way through this pandemic. By now we all, including Mrs SILH, ought to be able to spot them for what they are .


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## Ethan (Jan 1, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Ethan, Can you clarify that Covid-19 has to be put on the death certificate, regardless off cause of death, if the person has tested positive in previous 28 days as it is one of the 5 “notifiable diseases” or something like that? Sorry to be vague, I’m sure there was an article I read somewhere saying certain illness’s MUST be recorded regardless of whether they were the cause of death.
		
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Anyone who dies with a positive test in the previous 28 days will be listed in that 70k figure. The death certificate lists only the relevant causes. If someone got hit by a bus, then Covid would not be mentioned as a contributory cause. In people who die with terminal cancer (or another serious illness) it can be hard to separate which one was the greater contributor to death and triggered the final event, so it could go either way on the DC, but both should be mentioned.  

The number of people who have Covid but die from something entirely unconnected is so small as to be safely ignored from a data integrity point of view. The great majority die, as you say, from Covid, and in a smallish percentage it is a mix with something else.


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## Ethan (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Trying to calm Mrs SILH down at the moment as she’s not long off the phone with a friend who has her youngest at a local private school and as he has a kid in their class whose parents are GPs her friend reckons the GPs will sort it so that the teachers at the private school get prioritised for getting vaccinated.  My Mrs blew her top when her friend suggested that she was being naive to think it wouldn’t happen as money always speaks and will speak in getting the vaccine to those who have the money.  My Mrs is still steaming...
		
Click to expand...

That won't happen. GPs have to vaccinate according to priority, and they would be risking their medical licenses and contracts with the local PCN if they did that. Unless teachers are reprioritised by Govt, and that is possible, they have to take their place alongside ordinary citizens. The vacc is not available for private prescription, so the only money that could change hands would be in acts of bribery, so if they did that, they could be prosecuted as well.


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## Ethan (Jan 1, 2021)

Letter from the CMOs to healthcare professionals on the new scheduling. I have not always agree with policy on Covid, but I agree with this

CMO letter


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## AmandaJR (Jan 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Letter from the CMOs to healthcare professionals on the new scheduling. I have not always agree with policy on Covid, but I agree with this

CMO letter

Click to expand...

Why the reluctance (BBC may have said outcry!) about the decision?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 1, 2021)

I saw this earlier today. A BBC report apparently, quoting a front line AE doctor, a Professor, speaking about why the sharp rise in cases.
Seems to me an interesting view he is raising in the first paragraph.
It is not the full interview. He goes on to talk about the ages of most patients.

"He told Radio 5's Rachel Burden it was wrong to blame the surge in cases and deaths on the new variant of coronavirus, which was only "slightly" more transmissible and caused the same symptoms.
"It is making me actually very angry now that people are laying the blame on the virus, and it is not the virus, it is people, people are not washing their hands, they are not wearing their masks," he said."


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## Billysboots (Jan 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Letter from the CMOs to healthcare professionals on the new scheduling. I have not always agree with policy on Covid, but I agree with this

CMO letter

Click to expand...

I absolutely understand and agree with this. It makes perfect sense from a public health perspective.

Nevertheless, I look forward to the conversation I will have today with my 83 year old mother, who has moaned like you would not believe every time one of her friends has received the vaccine ahead of her, when she now hears that others will now be getting their first dose before she gets her second, having had the jab yesterday.

I have said many times here that the pandemic has brought out the worst in people, and I’m afraid I include my own mother in that. I have seen a degree of selfishness in her I never knew was there, even extending to begrudging my sister in law, a nurse, getting the vaccine ahead of her. She has harassed her GP repeatedly about her place in the queue, and even moaned to officials at County Hall, asking when she will be vaccinated, all whilst telling her 95 year old housebound neighbour to remain patient.

I’ve seen a side of her which, frankly, I do not like very much.


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## Ethan (Jan 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I absolutely understand and agree with this. It makes perfect sense from a public health perspective.

Nevertheless, I look forward to the conversation I will have today with my 83 year old mother, who has moaned like you would not believe every time one of her friends has received the vaccine ahead of her, when she now hears that others will now be getting their first dose before she gets her second, having had the jab yesterday.

I have said many times here that the pandemic has brought out the worst in people, and I’m afraid I include my own mother in that. I have seen a degree of selfishness in her I never knew was there, even extending to begrudging my sister in law, a nurse, getting the vaccine ahead of her. She has harassed her GP repeatedly about her place in the queue, and even moaned to officials at County Hall, asking when she will be vaccinated, all whilst telling her 95 year old housebound neighbour to remain patient.

I’ve seen a side of her which, frankly, I do not like very much.
		
Click to expand...

I can understand her enthusiasm to get the second one, and I know that GPs are spitting feathers at having been left with hundreds of appointments to reschedule. It is not at all likely that things will be any easier in 12 weeks time either. I think you can reassure your mother that one of the reasons this is possible is because the vaccine has been more effective than expected. Pfizer designed their study based on about a 60% response rate after 2 doses. Instead it has turned out to be over 90% after 1 dose. She will already received more protection than anyone could reasonably have hoped for.


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## Ethan (Jan 1, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Why the reluctance (BBC may have said outcry!) about the decision?
		
Click to expand...

People are anxious and scared and see the second vacc as getting past it. 



Swinglowandslow said:



			I saw this earlier today. A BBC report apparently, quoting a front line AE doctor, a Professor, speaking about why the sharp rise in cases.
Seems to me an interesting view he is raising in the first paragraph.
It is not the full interview. He goes on to talk about the ages of most patients.

"He told Radio 5's Rachel Burden it was wrong to blame the surge in cases and deaths on the new variant of coronavirus, which was only "slightly" more transmissible and caused the same symptoms.
"It is making me actually very angry now that people are laying the blame on the virus, and it is not the virus, it is people, people are not washing their hands, they are not wearing their masks," he said."
		
Click to expand...

Hugh Montgomery, physician at UCL, I think. He is right, but a small increase in transmissibility can cause a large rise in cases because of the exponential effect. He is right that it wouldn't be nearly as big a problem if everyone practised rigorous hygiene in hand washing, masks and social distancing, but that is probably rather hopeful.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 1, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Sorry SILH, but that very much smacks of being one of those "the-son-of-a-friend-of-someone-I-know" stories that have plagued us all the way through this pandemic. By now we all, including Mrs SILH, ought to be able to spot them for what they are .
		
Click to expand...

Oh we are sure that it is - just speculation by someone who thinks that their money can buy anything - in this case indirectly through the private school.  What has most infuriated my wife is that her friend - who did 20yrs as a nhs nurse - thinks that it would be appropriate and OK we’re it to happen - and that my wife would also think it ok and be impressed.  But as her friend said - why not - it’s the way of the world - networks and money. As you might imagine her friend isn’t a socialist 😊


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## DanFST (Jan 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I absolutely understand and agree with this. It makes perfect sense from a public health perspective.

Nevertheless, I look forward to the conversation I will have today with my 83 year old mother, who has moaned like you would not believe every time one of her friends has received the vaccine ahead of her, when she now hears that others will now be getting their first dose before she gets her second, having had the jab yesterday.

I have said many times here that the pandemic has brought out the worst in people, and I’m afraid I include my own mother in that. I have seen a degree of selfishness in her I never knew was there, even extending to begrudging my sister in law, a nurse, getting the vaccine ahead of her. She has harassed her GP repeatedly about her place in the queue, and even moaned to officials at County Hall, asking when she will be vaccinated, all whilst telling her 95 year old housebound neighbour to remain patient.

I’ve seen a side of her which, frankly, I do not like very much.
		
Click to expand...

I think she might just be scared, It's natural.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 1, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Why the reluctance (BBC may have said outcry!) about the decision?
		
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Maybe consider new year resolution to give up a little on your obsession with the BBC. We know how much you love it,  but maybe a period watching Sky or ITN News as well as the BBC will help for a bit of balance...but I think you’ll find that they report things in pretty much the same way. 😍


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			People are anxious and scared and see the second vacc as getting past it. 



Hugh Montgomery, physician at UCL, I think. He is right, but a small increase in transmissibility can cause a large rise in cases because of the exponential effect. He is right that it wouldn't be nearly as big a problem if everyone practised rigorous hygiene in hand washing, masks and social distancing, but that is probably rather hopeful.
		
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Yes, it was he. What it boils down to is people behaviour more than the virus getting too much naughtier. 
What I think is not highlighted enough, and is the major cause of this large increase, is the fact that the spreading is indoors. It is the breathing of each other's expelled breath. The timeline supports that: ( the increase in summer , outdoor , months was negligible, even reduced the spread) the winter, which combined with the allowing of indoor "meet ups", pubs, cafes etc  caused a very large opportunity for the aerosol effect to occur.
And instead of being more vigilant, we have become less so!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh we are sure that it is - just speculation by someone who thinks that their money can buy anything - in this case indirectly through the private school.  What has most infuriated my wife is that her friend - who did 20yrs as a nhs nurse - thinks that it would be appropriate and OK we’re it to happen - and that my wife would also think it ok and be impressed.  But as her friend said - why not - it’s the way of the world - networks and money. As you might imagine her friend isn’t a socialist 😊
		
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Sadly money and its networks do make things happen, I believe when Eton reopened after summer, every child and staff member was tested before being allowed back or to start.

I don’t blame them and hats off to them, but the simple fact is, they could only do this because they had the funds.

Its what should of happened at every school/university etc in the Country.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe consider new year resolution to give up a little on your obsession with the BBC. We know how much you love it,  but maybe a period watching Sky or ITN News as well as the BBC will help for a bit of balance...but I think you’ll find that they report things in pretty much the same way. 😍
		
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Thanks for the suggestion. BBC best of a bad lot - doesn't make their sensationalist journalism any more defensible though.


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## DanFST (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe consider new year resolution to give up a little on your obsession with the BBC. We know how much you love it,  but maybe a period watching Sky or ITN News as well as the BBC will help for a bit of balance...but I think you’ll find that they report things in pretty much the same way. 😍
		
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I watched the BBC referendum results the other day, all 10 hours. The bias and some of the stuff that was said, was quite frankly embarrassing.

Not what should be broadcast by a national network.


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## Ethan (Jan 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, it was he. What it boils down to is people behaviour more than the virus getting too much naughtier.
What I think is not highlighted enough, and is the major cause of this large increase, is the fact that the spreading is indoors. It is the breathing of each other's expelled breath. The timeline supports that: ( the increase in summer , outdoor , months was negligible, even reduced the spread) the winter, which combined with the allowing of indoor "meet ups", pubs, cafes etc  caused a very large opportunity for the aerosol effect to occur.
And instead of being more vigilant, we have become less so!
		
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It is definitely driven by indoor activity in close proximity, poor ventilation and too much contact time. The problem is tat saying the virus is slightly more transmissible means nothing to the average punter. Saying the risk has greatly increased does.


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## chellie (Jan 1, 2021)

Another one who thinks he can do what he wants. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55503789


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is definitely driven by indoor activity in close proximity, poor ventilation and too much contact time. The problem is tat saying the virus is slightly more transmissible means nothing to the average punter. Saying the risk has greatly increased does.
		
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I agree. But I  would have liked to see the reasons you mention in your first sentence pushed out more by the authorities. Because that's what people need not to do.


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, it was he. What it boils down to is people behaviour more than the virus getting too much naughtier.

And instead of being more vigilant, we have become less so!
		
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Doesn’t a lot of it also boil down to fatigue amongst large sections of the general population. If we go back to March and the initial lockdown was announced it was suggested that this would be enough to get rid of the virus and people like Chris Whitty mentioned that fatigue would definitely be an issue and they would have to factor that into decisions as to lockdowns etc.

Fast forward 11 months and we’re still in lockdown (of sorts) for a virus that for the fast majority has little or no affect. I am not condoning these actions however I haven’t heard fatigue being mentioned now, instead it’s is people like Hugh Montgomery suggesting that these people have ‘blood on their hands’ etc.


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			.....Hugh Montgomery suggesting that these people have ‘blood on their hands’ etc.
		
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I would also add, and this might be an unpopular opinion, that I found Hugh’s interview bordering on hysterical. I’m not trying to underplay the pandemic however it was clearly another attempt to try and scare the population back into line as other things aren’t working.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I would also add, and this might be an unpopular opinion, that I found Hugh’s interview bordering on hysterical. I’m not trying to underplay the pandemic however it was clearly another attempt to try and scare the population back into line as other things aren’t working.
		
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Good policy then.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Good policy then.
		
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Have people become a little dulled to such threats though? If the message is constant doom then people become numb to it, it becomes white noise.


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Good policy then.
		
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Hasn’t particularly worked so far though has it despite having been tried numerous times. 

By claiming that one person is going to infect hundreds of thousands of others and that entire families (inc children) are being wiped out is just OTT and probably doesn’t help as most will know that’s simply not true. Try using someone more level headed with sensible facts/figures and people are more likely to listen imo.


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Have people become a little dulled to such threats though? If the message is constant doom then people become numb to it, it becomes white noise.
		
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Exactly this imo.


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## bluewolf (Jan 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Good policy then.
		
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I’m really not sure it is. The British have form for refusing to do what they’re told is best for them when it’s done in an overblown manner 😉


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## Ethan (Jan 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I would also add, and this might be an unpopular opinion, that I found Hugh’s interview bordering on hysterical. I’m not trying to underplay the pandemic however it was clearly another attempt to try and scare the population back into line as other things aren’t working.
		
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Well, he is right with his assessment, but I think he needs to offer advice to people in a way they will accept and follow. Blaming people may be justified but it is probably tactically unwise and it may reinforce good habits in those who already have them but not change bad habits in that lot.


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## IainP (Jan 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Doesn’t a lot of it also boil down to fatigue amongst large sections of the general population. If we go back to March and *the initial lockdown was announced it was suggested that this would be enough to get rid of the virus* and people like Chris Whitty mentioned that fatigue would definitely be an issue and they would have to factor that into decisions as to lockdowns etc.

Fast forward 11 months and we’re still in lockdown (of sorts) for a virus that for the fast majority has little or no affect. I am not condoning these actions however I haven’t heard fatigue being mentioned now, instead it’s is people like Hugh Montgomery suggesting that these people have ‘blood on their hands’ etc.
		
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Did anyone really say the bit in bold? I don't recall it, and if they did I would have disregarded it as nonsense.


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, he is right with his assessment, but I think he needs to offer advice to people in a way they will accept and follow. Blaming people may be justified but it is probably tactically unwise and it may reinforce good habits in those who already have them but not change bad habits in that lot.
		
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I agree with this. If you want to take it to the n’th degree he also has blood on his own hands. I think it’s 20-30% of cases are actually acquired within hospitals so if you’re going to start throwing blame around and suggesting it’s other people’s fault then by his own logic he has to also take responsibility as they’re occurring within the NHS itself. Now this is completely OTT and I’m not suggesting front line workers are at fault but it’s an unhelpful comment just as his is....again, in my opinion.


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

IainP said:



			Did anyone really say the bit in bold? I don't recall it, and if they did I would have disregarded it as nonsense.
		
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To be fair I think I was paraphrasing one of Boris’s comments early on as it’s become clear that he’s incapable of giving bad news. He’s already promising us that we’ll be celebrating come Easter Sunday which probably puts the kiss of death on everything until the end of the summer based on previous form.


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## Billysboots (Jan 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Have people become a little dulled to such threats though? If the message is constant doom then people become numb to it, it becomes white noise.
		
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Absolutely spot on.

Back in the spring, after my daily walk I would sit on the patio with a cold beer and cringe when the deaths increased by nearly 1000 a day. Now, I’m afraid I barely raise an eyebrow.

After months of bad news I’ve simply come to expect it.


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## Billysboots (Jan 1, 2021)

IainP said:



			Did anyone really say the bit in bold? I don't recall it, and if they did I would have disregarded it as nonsense.
		
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Boris said back in March it would take 12 weeks, I believe, to largely eradicate the virus.


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 1, 2021)

After discussions with the in-laws we have decided not to continue with our childcare bubble, it has become too much of a risk

This was a hard decision but the right one. Currently my wife and I are struggling, we are currently both burning out on alternating weekends but still feel it’s right to end the bubble now, the risk with schools starting again is too high.

I wonder if others are doing the same, it’s a hard decision so I don’t blame any if they keep the bubble, every family is different and risks are different. My in laws are effectively sheilding again so ending our bubble just makes it complete.

Stay safe, make the right decisions for you, your immediate and your extended families, in doing so we can all get them back into our lives that much quicker!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Boris said back in March it would take 12 weeks, I believe, to largely eradicate the virus.
		
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Wasn't there also a phrase at the time along the lines of 'the virus can't travel'? If we don't move then the virus can't go anywhere. The intimation was that it would simply run out of steam.


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## Billysboots (Jan 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Wasn't there also a phrase at the time along the lines of 'the virus can't travel'? If we don't move then the virus can't go anywhere. The intimation was that it would simply run out of steam.
		
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Yep. There’s been a lot of guesswork going on, some educated much of it less so. I’ve been more than a little guilty of it myself to be fair.

I think, in retrospect, it’s largely been wishful thinking!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Absolutely spot on.

Back in the spring, after my daily walk I would sit on the patio with a cold beer and cringe when the deaths increased by nearly 1000 a day. Now, I’m afraid I barely raise an eyebrow.

After months of bad news I’ve simply come to expect it.
		
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Number fatigue...1000 is just a number - but it is 1000 real flesh and blood people...1000 more grieving families.  Every day.  Get 1,000 people to stand in a single line 2m apart and look at it - it's a long line and you won't see one end of it from the other.

And 72,500 deaths in total.  72,500 is also just a number - but it is equivalent to a town such as Walsall being completely wiped out - every man, woman and child.  Get to 80,000 and that's Paisley or Bury or West Bromwich.  Yes I know that accumulation of small numbers can given a false impression of the impact of the small numbers over time - but collectively...


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## IainP (Jan 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Wasn't there also a phrase at the time along the lines of 'the virus can't travel'? If we don't move then the virus can't go anywhere. The intimation was that it would simply run out of steam.
		
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Define travel though.
Virus has been travelling into the UK and as per the recent reports the UK has been exporting it out to many a country. The world is a big place.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Absolutely spot on.

Back in the spring, after my daily walk I would sit on the patio with a cold beer and cringe when the deaths increased by nearly 1000 a day. Now, I’m afraid I barely raise an eyebrow.

After months of bad news I’ve simply come to expect it.
		
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I totally agree. I was talking to some of our staff today and even they admitted they have become lax in terms of wearing a mask and gloves whereas even after lockdown 1.0 they were on it all of the time and washing and sanitising their hands more often. People have become lazy and I think certain areas of the population have become immune to the enormous threat and have the "it won't happen to me" mentality.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 1, 2021)

ScienceBoy said:



*After discussions with the in-laws we have decided not to continue with our childcare bubble, it has become too much of a risk*

This was a hard decision but the right one. Currently my wife and I are struggling, we are currently both burning out on alternating weekends but still feel it’s right to end the bubble now, the risk with schools starting again is too high.

I wonder if others are doing the same, it’s a hard decision so I don’t blame any if they keep the bubble, every family is different and risks are different. My in laws are effectively sheilding again so ending our bubble just makes it complete.

Stay safe, make the right decisions for you, your immediate and your extended families, in doing so we can all get them back into our lives that much quicker!
		
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personally if you can manage to do it without a bubble then do it. Me, Missis T and my lad have Covid. We Have not been anywhere since Christmas Day. The grandkids pressies are still under the tree and will be there til the 7th Jan at the earliest.
We are ok and have got off really really light. If we had been idiots and seen me ma and pa, seen the in-law. Spent all day over Christmas dinner with daughter. This Covid could of gone rampant through the ones we love the most. And there would of been casualty’s. Fortunately it has stopped at our front door.
It is a time to make tough decisions, Your last sentence firmly hits the nail on the head.👍


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## Billysboots (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Number fatigue...1000 is just a number - but it is 1000 real flesh and blood people...1000 more grieving families.  Every day.  Get 1,000 people to stand in a single line 2m apart and look at it - it's a long line and you won't see one end of it from the other.

And 72,500 deaths in total.  72,500 is also just a number - but it is equivalent to a town such as Walsall being completely wiped out - every man, woman and child.  Get to 80,000 and that's Paisley or Bury or West Bromwich.  Yes I know that accumulation of small numbers can given a false impression of the impact of the small numbers over time - but collectively...

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I absolutely, totally agree. But month after month of bad news and little else takes its toll on the human mind - it has to. It’s one of the reasons I have had such a massive issue with much of the press and media coverage of the pandemic.

I’ve dealt with serious trauma for much of the last twenty years through my specialism at work, including far too much family liaison work, and understand how people deal with trauma in different ways. Some of that is being replicated in the way I have tried to process the daily dose of shocking news myself.

I actually think there will be a significant number of people, who have not had the virus, not known anybody directly impacted by it, and yet they will still suffer varying degrees of mental health issues simply because of the daily exposure to appalling and frightening news. Not everyone has the capacity to deal with it on the sort of scale we’ve seen these last ten months.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I absolutely, totally agree. But month after month of bad news and little else takes its toll on the human mind - it has to. It’s one of the reasons I have had such a massive issue with much of the press and media coverage of the pandemic.

I’ve dealt with serious trauma for much of the last twenty years through my specialism at work, including far too much family liaison work, and understand how people deal with trauma in different ways. Some of that is being replicated in the way I have tried to process the daily dose of shocking news myself.

I actually think there will be a significant number of people, who have not had the virus, not known anybody directly impacted by it, and yet they will still suffer varying degrees of mental health issues simply because of the daily exposure to appalling and frightening news. Not everyone has the capacity to deal with it on the sort of scale we’ve seen these last ten months.
		
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Good post.
Ave said this before, when we were all in the first lockdown we all suffered together. Since we have come out of the lockdown. The whole of the UK has been in different tiers. For me it has sent out mixed messages. The leaders that be have slightly left open doors and they have been roundly kicked off the hinges. EG, Remember when Blackpool was open for business but Lancashire was locked down. Blackpool was rammed and Covid cases soared. The pubs shut at 10pm, so folk go straight to the off licence for some more and the streets are rammed. The lack of strong leadership has worn people down. I have spent more than half a dozen times speaking to me parents telling them that they have to go back into isolation, yet they point the finger at what others are doing but shouldn’t be.
Birmingham police had over 100 phone calls last night re illegal party’s. Anyone of those catching Covid would have a different outcome to if me parents caught it.
That aside, the fatalities and people catching Covid are on a par with the first wave. This wave don’t show any signs of slowing down yet the restrictions are not on a par with the first lockdown. it’s doing my head in.


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 1, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			personally if you can manage to do it without a bubble then do it.
		
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It is doable, we only used it once when both the wife and I were working. Our poor boy has only seen his grandparents on two occasions since the latest lockdown started, the childcare bubble day and Xmas day. It is hurtung him and them the most, the wife and I can cope with it but it’s not fun nor is it healthy. Better the mental and physical exhaustion making us ill, which it is, we can get over those much more easily than our in laws would with the virus. That isn’t making light of mental illness however, its a nasty thing and will require treatment when the virus has receded somewhat.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 1, 2021)

It is dismaying to see an almost give up attitude in some posts here.
Saying that "we've heard it all before and keeping on telling us will have us doing the opposite or ignoring ...etc
So, you advise what?
Say nothing?  Say less?  People will then start acting responsibly will they?
I know, let's start blaming the authorities, even down to blaming the hospital staff( Jesus!)It's their fault it's spreading - anyone but us public.
A professor who is a Dr in A&E is accused of being hysterical, because he and his staff are working their arses off trying to save lives, and in desperation is spelling out the awful consequences- yet all that some here can do , instead of backing  his message, is make excuse after excuse for the bloody idiots out there who will not behave.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is dismaying to see an almost give up attitude in some posts here.
Saying that "we've heard it all before and keeping on telling us will have us doing the opposite or ignoring ...etc
So, you advise what?
Say nothing?  Say less?  People will then start acting responsibly will they?
I know, let's start blaming the authorities, even down to blaming the hospital staff( Jesus!)It's their fault it's spreading - anyone but us public.
A professor who is a Dr in A&E is accused of being hysterical, because he and his staff are working their arses off trying to save lives, and in desperation is spelling out the awful consequences- yet all that some here can do , instead of backing  his message, is make excuse after excuse for the bloody idiots out there who will not behave.
		
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To try and re enforce my comments about mixed message from the leaders. The recent decision of now closing schools in London
 ( U turn ) is a classic example. It’s in tier 4 and schools stay shut for X period of time. Yet other tier 4 areas the schools are open. London is struggling with numbers so schools close. Do we have to wait til the whole country is struggling, and then close schools.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 1, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			To try and re enforce my comments about mixed message from the leaders. The recent decision of now closing schools in London
( U turn ) is a classic example. It’s in tier 4 and schools stay shut for X period of time. Yet other tier 4 areas the schools are open. London is struggling with numbers so schools close. Do we have to wait til the whole country is struggling, and then close schools.
		
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Absolutely! Why is a kid in Primary School in Newcastle any different to a Primary School kid in London?

It’s the mixed messages that are starting to get to people!

Why not lockdown the Schools and the Country until half term and use the military that are going to be used for testing in Schools moved on to a 24hr a day vaccination programme to the most vulnerable. Hit it hard and quickly so we can start moving forward rather than this “on the bus, off the bus”


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			A professor who is a Dr in A&E is accused of being hysterical, because he and his staff are working their arses off trying to save lives, and in desperation is spelling out the awful consequences- yet all that some here can do , instead of backing  his message, is make excuse after excuse for the bloody idiots out there who will not behave.
		
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I am not making excuses for the idiots however the Dr in question is going completely the other way with his scaremongering IMO. I stopped listening to him as soon as he claimed that one person could infect a hundred thousand and that entire families had been wiped out by COVID. That is not to say that we can let the virus run unchecked and I am certain that families have had tragedies however for me he’s not better than the COVID deniers but just on the other end of the scale.


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## road2ruin (Jan 1, 2021)

Pre 2020, a family rings up the head to say that they are taking their child out of primary school before the summer holiday’s to get a cheaper break (or whatever) and are told in no uncertain terms that even a week from a child’s education will ensure long term damage to their GCSE’s and chances of success later down the line.

2020 onwards, shut primary schools, a bit of time out of school won’t harm them, they’ll all catch up. This is after 3 months off for some children during lockdown 1 and potentially even more with the inevitable on the horizon. 

So which is it? So far there doesn’t seem to be any coherent strategy to ensure that children (I’m looking particularly at the Primary school age as that is where my daughter is) aren’t left behind. There is no particular catching up and nothing to ensure that when they do take exams in a few years they are not penalised for what is happening to them now. Children at that age simply cannot learn at home and I am convinced some will be irreparably damaged due to this. The teacher’s unions seem intent on closing all schools but I haven’t heard a single sensible thing said by them as to how they will guarantee that all children will catch up to the expected level.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is dismaying to see an almost give up attitude in some posts here.
Saying that "we've heard it all before and keeping on telling us will have us doing the opposite or ignoring ...etc
So, you advise what?
Say nothing?  Say less?  People will then start acting responsibly will they?
I know, let's start blaming the authorities, even down to blaming the hospital staff( Jesus!)It's their fault it's spreading - anyone but us public.
A professor who is a Dr in A&E is accused of being hysterical, because he and his staff are working their arses off trying to save lives, and in desperation is spelling out the awful consequences- yet all that some here can do , instead of backing  his message, is make excuse after excuse for the bloody idiots out there who will not behave.
		
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This exactly.

If the Press and Government didn't give us the numbers people would be all over them for hiding them from us.

I'm saddened by some of the comments I read here, Old people should be shut away so that the rest can get on with life, what kind of talk is that. How long should they be locked away while others allow the virus to rip away through society, should they forceably be locked up like criminals if they don't want to be.

If anyone is numbed by a thousand people dieing in a day and let it zip over their heads then maybe they should stop and consider what it really means and how many others are mentally affected by that bereavement. My very best friend died a week ago and I'm numbed by the thought of him not being around anymore, I can imagine how bad this must be for.his wife and children, just multiply that a thousand times and then again the next day.

People need to understand how bad the situation is and the stress front line medical staff have to suffer. The people that need to be locked away are the ones who hold a compete disregard for spreading this virus.

I posted this on another thread but it's worth another look.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-55506681


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Pre 2020, a family rings up the head to say that they are taking their child out of primary school before the summer holiday’s to get a cheaper break (or whatever) and are told in no uncertain terms that even a week from a child’s education will ensure long term damage to their GCSE’s and chances of success later down the line.

2020 onwards, shut primary schools, a bit of time out of school won’t harm them, they’ll all catch up. This is after 3 months off for some children during lockdown 1 and potentially even more with the inevitable on the horizon.

So which is it? So far there doesn’t seem to be any coherent strategy to ensure that children (I’m looking particularly at the Primary school age as that is where my daughter is) aren’t left behind. There is no particular catching up and nothing to ensure that when they do take exams in a few years they are not penalised for what is happening to them now. Children at that age simply cannot learn at home and I am convinced some will be irreparably damaged due to this. The teacher’s unions seem intent on closing all schools but I haven’t heard a single sensible thing said by them as to how they will guarantee that all children will catch up to the expected level.
		
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Surely until we are through this we won’t know how much time is needed to be caught up on.

The Union doesn’t have the power or authority to come up with the plan.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 1, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely! Why is a kid in Primary School in Newcastle any different to a Primary School kid in London?

It’s the mixed messages that are starting to get to people!

Why not lockdown the Schools and the Country until half term and use the military that are going to be used for testing in Schools moved on to a 24hr a day vaccination programme to the most vulnerable. Hit it hard and quickly so we can start moving forward rather than this “on the bus, off the bus”
		
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I totally understand the rational behind tiers and what you can and cannot do depending on which tier you are in. However a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link. And time and time again people have proven to be the weakest link in that chain. 
The time has come for a full lockdown and the Covid nut needs smashing with a sledgehammer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 1, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I totally understand the rational behind tiers and what you can and cannot do depending on which tier you are in. However a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link. And time and time again people have proven to be the weakest link in that chain.
The time has come for a full lockdown and the Covid nut needs smashing with a sledgehammer.
		
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But both London and Newcastle are Tier 4, with different rules. Some Parents are thinking their kid/kids are being put at risk compared to others.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 1, 2021)

IainP said:



			Define travel though.
Virus has been travelling into the UK and as per the recent reports the UK has been exporting it out to many a country. The world is a big place.
		
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The point was that the virus can not travel on it's own. For it to spread people have to move around with it, thus infecting others. If we all stay at home for two weeks it stops. 

This is obviously over simplistic but I remember that being the talk at the beginning. All those months ago....................


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## IainP (Jan 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The point was that the virus can not travel on it's own. For it to spread people have to move around with it, thus infecting others. If we all stay at home for two weeks it stops.

This is obviously over simplistic but I remember that being the talk at the beginning. All those months ago....................
		
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Yes, I agree with that.
The point being debated though was "would take 12 weeks, I believe, to largely eradicate the virus."
What I was trying to highlight was even if that was done (successfully) on a little island, it wouldn't eradicate it from the planet and could/would return.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 1, 2021)

IainP said:



			Yes, I agree with that.
The point being debated though was "would take 12 weeks, I believe, to largely eradicate the virus."
*What I was trying to highlight was even if that was done (successfully) on a little island, it wouldn't eradicate it from the planet and could/would return*.
		
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Whilst that is true, look at the praise that the New Zealand PM is getting for how she's handled it. They've been massively successful in supressing the virus but as soon as they open up their borders again it will return. Yes, we could have locked down hard for 4 weeks in March/April and pretty much eradicated it in the UK, but we would still need to have the borders closed now (no flights, boats or trains in or out of the country) to keep it out. I'm not sure we could have survived if we were still in that sort of total lockdown.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 1, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Whilst that is true, look at the praise that the New Zealand PM is getting for how she's handled it. They've been massively successful in supressing the virus but as soon as they open up their borders again it will return. Yes, we could have locked down hard for 4 weeks in March/April and pretty much eradicated it in the UK, but we would still need to have the borders closed now (no flights, boats or trains in or out of the country) to keep it out. I'm not sure we could have survived if we were still in that sort of total lockdown.
		
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But hasn't NZ got strict isolation protocols for those arriving in their country? We on the other hand let every Tom, Dick and Harry swan off doing as they please


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## SaintHacker (Jan 2, 2021)

Interesting that according to sky news this morning the vaccine companies arw saying there is no problem with supply and should be sending out 2 million doses a week buy the middle of january, despite what the CMO said yesterday. A case of the government trying to not raise peoples hopes too much?


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## bobmac (Jan 2, 2021)

Just been to Tesco*
It was almost empty, as was the rest of town I drove through.
Bliss

*Other supermarkets are available.


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Do we have to wait til the whole country is struggling, and then close schools.
		
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No, primary schools should be closed for the first two weeks of term, now isn’t a time to bring back mixing.

I think we should leave terms like “U-Turns” out of this discussion as they are subjective and too political. It’s not a bad thing to be changing the rules as the situation changes in my opinion, I will leave it at that for this forum.


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## SatchFan (Jan 2, 2021)

Why not just give kids an extra two weeks holiday now and lop off two weeks of the summer holiday?


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## road2ruin (Jan 2, 2021)

ScienceBoy said:



			No, primary schools should be closed for the first two weeks of term, now isn’t a time to bring back mixing.
		
Click to expand...

My issue with this is that I honestly can’t see anything changing in two weeks so if the decision is made to close primary schools for that period then that might well be it for more like two months. This would be a disaster for those missing such a long period off coupled with the 3 months that they missed last year.


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## Ethan (Jan 2, 2021)

IainP said:



			Did anyone really say the bit in bold? I don't recall it, and if they did I would have disregarded it as nonsense.
		
Click to expand...

The point of salvation started as Esater, then early summer, then late su


SaintHacker said:



			Interesting that according to sky news this morning the vaccine companies arw saying there is no problem with supply and should be sending out 2 million doses a week buy the middle of january, despite what the CMO said yesterday. A case of the government trying to not raise peoples hopes too much?
		
Click to expand...

Assuming all goes well, they can make the stuff, but getting it to the right places and having adequate numbers of staff to call patients at the right rate and administer it adds further risk. It would be a miracle if eligible people on the current guidelines got done by Easter. With the numbers of cases of this new strain, that is going to feel like a long time.


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## upsidedown (Jan 2, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			But hasn't NZ got strict isolation protocols for those arriving in their country? We on the other hand let every Tom, Dick and Harry swan off doing as they please
		
Click to expand...

https://www.miq.govt.nz/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2021)

Me and Mrs SILH went to a local spot we often go for walks...it was rammed, cars jammed together and groups and individuals doing there best to keep separate...but just insanely busy - we didn’t stop and headed back home - and on the way every car park used by walkers was jammed.  I’ve no idea how well those out walking fared keeping their distance from each other - but we couldn’t imagine any walk being a lot of fun.  On the contrary - it would appear to be very stressful...

We ended up having a walk in and around our little town.  It was almost deserted and we had a lovely walk - with the few folks we encountered quite easily making way and waiting to pass.  What an irony.


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My issue with this is that I honestly can’t see anything changing in two weeks
		
Click to expand...

Then at least close them for two weeks in the south east areas, I think this should include where I live.

Two weeks of closed schools isn’t great, every day missed has an impact. With some home learning the gap can be partial bridged but nothing beats going to actual school:

I do agree 2 weeks won’t change much but it will certainly help if all guidance is followed to reduce mixing. These things never work in isolation, they need to be part of wider measures to prevent spread.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 2, 2021)

Funny how life puts things into to perspective sometimes. Ive had a pretty low few weeks, couldn't be bothered with xmas at all, just want to pull the covers over my head and not wake up until april really. However watched a NHS emergency service documentary last night. A woman on it had 3 teenage children, all had been diagnosed with an ultra rare genetic condition,  so rare that only 6 people in the country had it. The oldest had already passed, the middle one didnt have long left,and the youngest was beginning to show symptoms but was still quite well enough to watch her older brother slowly die knowing she was next. All the mother could do was care for her children as best she could as they faded and died. Wife and i were both sat there with tears running down out cheeks thinking how lucky we actually are. What the hell right do i have to feel sorry for myself?


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## Ethan (Jan 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My issue with this is that I honestly can’t see anything changing in two weeks so if the decision is made to close primary schools for that period then that might well be it for more like two months. This would be a disaster for those missing such a long period off coupled with the 3 months that they missed last year.
		
Click to expand...

At this stage, lockdowns are to buy time. The chance to end this through a NZ style lockdown is long passed. We heard recently that if the advice offered by SAGE in September, to lockdown a week earlier, had been followed, it would have saved 20k lives. With the rates around at the moment, a week is still probably worth at least that. It is basically a race between vaccination arrangements and cases. Holding back the cases for a week or two could make a big difference IF we use it well to move vaccination forward. It won't stop the pandemic, but it might give us a leg up.


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## IanM (Jan 2, 2021)

Been off work since 23rd Dec.   Haven't left the village at all except for 2 visits to Tecso for a "click & collect!"  Only left house for walking the dogs.  No visitors to our house,  no golf due to Welsh Lockdown.

The Press Coverage is really annoying me as I've said before. Everything reported as wrong or negative,  even news of vaccine focuses mainly on logistical challenges. 

Much of the reportage provides folk with an excuse to ignore controls.


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## road2ruin (Jan 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			At this stage, lockdowns are to buy time. The chance to end this through a NZ style lockdown is long passed. We heard recently that if the advice offered by SAGE in September, to lockdown a week earlier, had been followed, it would have saved 20k lives. With the rates around at the moment, a week is still probably worth at least that. It is basically a race between vaccination arrangements and cases. Holding back the cases for a week or two could make a big difference IF we use it well to move vaccination forward. It won't stop the pandemic, but it might give us a leg up.
		
Click to expand...

If they said “We’re going to close schools for 1/2 weeks but at the end of that period we guarantee that they will open again” then I would be supportive if they think it’d help. However, based on previous experience, once closed there will always be reasons why they shouldn’t open again and so 1/2 weeks becomes a month which in turn becomes 6/8 weeks. 

Despite the cheeriness of the vaccine we know that it’s likely to take longer to roll out than has been suggested and closing schools (especially primary) for a longer period will have life long implications for children.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 2, 2021)

IanM said:



			Been off work since 23rd Dec.   Haven't left the village at all except for 2 visits to Tecso for a "click & collect!"  Only left house for walking the dogs.  No visitors to our house,  no golf due to Welsh Lockdown.

The Press Coverage is really annoying me as I've said before. Everything reported as wrong or negative,  even news of vaccine focuses mainly on logistical challenges.

Much of the reportage provides folk with an excuse to ignore controls.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, very annoying, frustrating that thousands ignored the rules to party/gather on New Years Eve for example. But miliions more obeyed the rules.

Focus on the positives to keep people engaged and upbeat.


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If they said “We’re going to close schools for 1/2 weeks but at the end of that period we guarantee that they will open again” then I would be supportive if they think it’d help. However, based on previous experience, once closed there will always be reasons why they shouldn’t open again and so 1/2 weeks becomes a month which in turn becomes 6/8 weeks.

Despite the cheeriness of the vaccine we know that it’s likely to take longer to roll out than has been suggested and closing schools (especially primary) for a longer period will have life long implications for children.
		
Click to expand...

How can anyone guarantee anything at the moment?
If they said " we guarantee schools will be open in 2 weeks" and things keep getting worse...what do they do?
Open them because they said they would?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



*If they said “We’re going to close schools for 1/2 weeks but at the end of that period we guarantee that they will open again” then I would be supportive if they think it’d help.* However, based on previous experience, once closed there will always be reasons why they shouldn’t open again and so 1/2 weeks becomes a month which in turn becomes 6/8 weeks.

Despite the cheeriness of the vaccine we know that it’s likely to take longer to roll out than has been suggested and closing schools (especially primary) for a longer period will have life long implications for children.
		
Click to expand...

How can they possibly *guarantee* reopening schools when that depends on the rate of virus spread, which in turn depends on the behaviour of our 60+ million population, no small number of which seem to think that none of this applies to them?

When the public guarantee that they will all play by the rules, those who are in charge might be able to guarantee when schools can reopen.


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## road2ruin (Jan 2, 2021)

I’m fully aware that they cannot (and won’t) guarantee anything however those calling for a two week break and have the schools reopen after that are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that’ll actually happen. Once schools close for remote learning that’ll be it until the Spring imo which would have a devastating impact on most primary school children, especially those in the younger years.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 2, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Funny how life puts things into to perspective sometimes. Ive had a pretty low few weeks, couldn't be bothered with xmas at all, just want to pull the covers over my head and not wake up until april really. However watched a NHS emergency service documentary last night. A woman on it had 3 teenage children, all had been diagnosed with an ultra rare genetic condition,  so rare that only 6 people in the country had it. The oldest had already passed, the middle one didnt have long left,and the youngest was beginning to show symptoms but was still quite well enough to watch her older brother slowly die knowing she was next. All the mother could do was care for her children as best she could as they faded and died. Wife and i were both sat there with tears running down out cheeks thinking how lucky we actually are. What the hell right do i have to feel sorry for myself?
		
Click to expand...

I really hope that everyone in this forum reads this , and takes time to absorb what is really being portrayed here. Then, think of this poor family, when we start to moan about how our golf, pubbing with mates, shopping trips, only speaking to relatives without touching them, is affecting our "mental health", even though we know that these impositions are to save lives.

This story is one of the most horrendous accounts I've read.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m fully aware that they cannot (and won’t) guarantee anything however those calling for a two week break and have the schools reopen after that are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that’ll actually happen. Once schools close for remote learning that’ll be it until the Spring imo which would have a devastating impact on most primary school children, especially those in the younger years.
		
Click to expand...

It’s more guesswork though! What would be the better option?

Schools closed until Spring and they return to a safer World and a Country in recovery.

or

Keep them in school, more risk of or illness, World, Country staying in turmoil for longer, maybe Summer/Winter.

The younger kids can recover best of all if the process’s are put in place and resourced, ie, increase the school day by 1hr, reduce School Holidays by half etc, these measures could be put in place for 3-5 years. Older kids given guarantees of retakes or repeating school years if requested.

I fully get we worry about our Children and it doesn’t stop when they leave school, but neither does education.

I firmly believe it’s more important to save lives at the moment than worrying about how a child will turn out as an adult in 10-15 years because they missed 3 or 6 months of school work.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me and Mrs SILH went to a local spot we often go for walks...it was rammed, cars jammed together and groups and individuals doing there best to keep separate...but just insanely busy - we didn’t stop and headed back home - and on the way every car park used by walkers was jammed.  I’ve no idea how well those out walking fared keeping their distance from each other - but we couldn’t imagine any walk being a lot of fun.  On the contrary - it would appear to be very stressful...

We ended up having a walk in and around our little town.  It was almost deserted and we had a lovely walk - with the few folks we encountered quite easily making way and waiting to pass.  What an irony.
		
Click to expand...

They are rammed because people want to walk there which I presume is why you went there. I find it hard to understand why people need to drive anywhere if all they are after is a walk.


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## Ethan (Jan 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If they said “We’re going to close schools for 1/2 weeks but at the end of that period we guarantee that they will open again” then I would be supportive if they think it’d help. However, based on previous experience, once closed there will always be reasons why they shouldn’t open again and so 1/2 weeks becomes a month which in turn becomes 6/8 weeks.

Despite the cheeriness of the vaccine we know that it’s likely to take longer to roll out than has been suggested and closing schools (especially primary) for a longer period will have life long implications for children.
		
Click to expand...

That is all fair enough, but if we have learnt one thing from the past almost a year, it is that half arsed plans don't stick. If  a lockdown is needed to break the cycle, it has to be a real one. There is a price to pay, but arguably a smaller one than letting this go on for months and months. In 6 months time, even if everyone over 50 or with other health problems is vaccinated, this is still far from over.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Some places are more pleasant for walking than others. Or just variety rather than trudging round their local streets.
		
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Agree but responsible people need to realise that some sacrifices are needed and to just make the best with what you have. We have had a number of car accidents up on Dartmoor because people wanted to go “out for a walk” which have put extra pressure on the emergency services.


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## Beezerk (Jan 2, 2021)

I've been using the Covid 19 app for a month or so, you check in every day with how you are feeling and it tracks the numbers in your local area.
The number of cases in Gateshead were quite low last week, maybe a couple of hundred, this week we are well over a thousand,  up 800 in a week 😯
We've been in tier 3 and 4 for a good while now so I'm staggered at how large and fast the rise has been despite us being locked down.


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## Kellfire (Jan 2, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Funny how life puts things into to perspective sometimes. Ive had a pretty low few weeks, couldn't be bothered with xmas at all, just want to pull the covers over my head and not wake up until april really. However watched a NHS emergency service documentary last night. A woman on it had 3 teenage children, all had been diagnosed with an ultra rare genetic condition,  so rare that only 6 people in the country had it. The oldest had already passed, the middle one didnt have long left,and the youngest was beginning to show symptoms but was still quite well enough to watch her older brother slowly die knowing she was next. All the mother could do was care for her children as best she could as they faded and died. Wife and i were both sat there with tears running down out cheeks thinking how lucky we actually are. What the hell right do i have to feel sorry for myself?
		
Click to expand...

Because your problems are your problems and we should never try to belittle our own issues because others have it objectively worse. 

I know what you’re saying but it can be an incredibly dangerous and dark hole to go down if you start convincing yourself that you have no right to feel how you do. 

If you can, talk to people about how you feel and share your experiences. I bet you’ll find so many friends and family feel the same and hopefully you’ll find little ways to feel better quickly. 

Try to keep your chin up, but if you find you can’t, don’t be afraid to let others help you keep your chin up.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I've been using the Covid 19 app for a month or so, you check in every day with how you are feeling and it tracks the numbers in your local area.
The number of cases in Gateshead were quite low last week, maybe a couple of hundred, this week we are well over a thousand,  up 800 in a week 😯
We've been in tier 3 and 4 for a good while now so I'm staggered at how large and fast the rise has been despite us being locked down.
		
Click to expand...

More testing maybe?!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s more guesswork though! What would be the better option?

Schools closed until Spring and they return to a safer World and a Country in recovery.

or

Keep them in school, more risk of or illness, World, Country staying in turmoil for longer, maybe Summer/Winter.

The younger kids can recover best of all if the process’s are put in place and resourced, ie, increase the school day by 1hr, reduce School Holidays by half etc, these measures could be put in place for 3-5 years. Older kids given guarantees of retakes or repeating school years if requested.

I fully get we worry about our Children and it doesn’t stop when they leave school, but neither does education.

I firmly believe it’s more important to save lives at the moment than worrying about how a child will turn out as an adult in 10-15 years because they missed 3 or 6 months of school work.
		
Click to expand...

My Grandsons in the USA have been home since April learning on line. They are 13, 10 and 7 years of age and seem to be managing well with their learning.  Fortunately their Mum doesn't work and is there with them, I guess the main issue with it is where parents cannot be home or have to work from home.

I don't see a big issue with schools being closed for a month or two, the summer holidays could be cut short and as mentioned the school day could be extended if necessary.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 2, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			How can they possibly *guarantee* reopening schools when that depends on the rate of virus spread, which in turn depends on the behaviour of our 60+ million population, no small number of which seem to think that none of this applies to them?

When the public guarantee that they will all play by the rules, those who are in charge might be able to guarantee when schools can reopen.
		
Click to expand...

and to add to what you say, the government nigh on guaranteed a four/ five day Christmas free for all after the second lockdown.How Could they? how could they know what the rates would be on the 16th Dec when we came out. As it happened they were worse. Partly due to a rammel lockdown and partly due to a new strain.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I've been using the Covid 19 app for a month or so, you check in every day with how you are feeling and it tracks the numbers in your local area.
The number of cases in Gateshead were quite low last week, maybe a couple of hundred, this week we are well over a thousand,  up 800 in a week 😯
We've been in tier 3 and 4 for a good while now so I'm staggered at how large and fast the rise has been despite us being locked down.
		
Click to expand...

I think it’s down to two things, 
1, a Christmas with families mixing.
2, the new strain being more infectious.

Which has unfortunately helped to make the perfect storm.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			They are rammed because people want to walk there which I presume is why you went there. I find it hard to understand why people need to drive anywhere if all they are after is a walk.
		
Click to expand...

like I mentioned a few days back. Me sons ex pal drives from Nottinghamshire to the lake district for a walk.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			My Grandsons in the USA have been home since April learning on line. They are 13, 10 and 7 years of age and seem to be managing well with their learning.  Fortunately their Mum doesn't work and is there with them, I guess the main issue with it is where parents cannot be home or have to work from home.

I don't see a big issue with schools being closed for a month or two, the summer holidays could be cut short and as mentioned the school day could be extended if necessary.
		
Click to expand...

Where there’s a will, there’s a way.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 2, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because your problems are your problems and we should never try to belittle our own issues because others have it objectively worse.

I know what you’re saying but it can be an incredibly dangerous and dark hole to go down if you start convincing yourself that you have no right to feel how you do.

If you can, talk to people about how you feel and share your experiences. I bet you’ll find so many friends and family feel the same and hopefully you’ll find little ways to feel better quickly.

Try to keep your chin up, but if you find you can’t, don’t be afraid to let others help you keep your chin up.
		
Click to expand...

Probably the most sensible post on this forum for a good while.


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## Foxholer (Jan 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			...The chance to end this through a NZ style lockdown is long passed....
		
Click to expand...

This was never a possibility for the UK! While there was a 'lockdown' in NZ, it would be better described as 'Lockout' - something totally unfeasible for UK!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is all fair enough, but if we have learnt one thing from the past almost a year, it is that half arsed plans don't stick. If  a lockdown is needed to break the cycle, it has to be a real one. There is a price to pay, but arguably a smaller one than letting this go on for months and months. In 6 months time, even if everyone over 50 or with other health problems is vaccinated, this is still far from over.
		
Click to expand...

Ref your last sentence, Ethan. Come on, being in that position ,if we could now be there,  would be a godsend . And it would be a helluva lot more over than what problems would be left to deal with.
There would be mainly young left who can naturally throw it off , in the main, without hospital etc.
There would still be work to be done, but life would be getting towards normal, surely?


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## SaintHacker (Jan 2, 2021)

It would be interesting to know what the percentage figure is of the vaccinated population where the virus begins to die out naturally as there's not enough people left for it to spread so easily, 50%, 60%?


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## Kellfire (Jan 2, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			It would be interesting to know what the percentage figure is of the vaccinated population where the virus begins to die out naturally as there's not enough people left for it to spread so easily, 50%, 60%?
		
Click to expand...

60 - 70% is the working model.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 2, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because your problems are your problems and we should never try to belittle our own issues because others have it objectively worse.

I know what you’re saying but it can be an incredibly dangerous and dark hole to go down if you start convincing yourself that you have no right to feel how you do.

If you can, talk to people about how you feel and share your experiences. I bet you’ll find so many friends and family feel the same and hopefully you’ll find little ways to feel better quickly.

Try to keep your chin up, but if you find you can’t, don’t be afraid to let others help you keep your chin up.
		
Click to expand...

I was trying to compose something along the same lines, but you've saved me the bother and done it far more eloquently, thank you.

And don't forget that it applies to you as well.


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## Beezerk (Jan 2, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			More testing maybe?!
		
Click to expand...

I don't buy that "more testing" excuse, testing numbers have been high for a long long time as far as I'm aware.


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## Slime (Jan 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I've been using the Covid 19 app for a month or so, you check in every day with how you are feeling and it tracks the numbers in your local area.
The number of cases in Gateshead were quite low last week, maybe a couple of hundred, this week we are well over a thousand,  up 800 in a week 😯
We've been in tier 3 and 4 for a good while now so *I'm staggered at how large and fast the rise has been despite us being locked down.*

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, only the good ones are locked down.


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## Ethan (Jan 2, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			60 - 70% is the working model.
		
Click to expand...

It is a mathematical concept. If the R is 3, then each person passes to others. If they only are able to pass to 1 other, the infection does not grow, therefore for R=3, you need 2 out of every 3 people immune. With measles, R is 12-15, so you need 11/12, say, immune, over 90%. 

The formula is 1-1/R.

It doesn’t mean the risk to individuals is gone, just the risk of epidemics.


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2021)

Another 57k today...
I know we're doing a lot of testing but to put the numbers into perspective we've put on 100k more cases in the last week than Japan have had from the start...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 2, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Another 57k today...
I know we're doing a lot of testing but to put the numbers into perspective we've put on 100k more cases in the last week than Japan have had from the start...
		
Click to expand...

It goes back to @Beezerk post on the previous page. Just how?


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## Billysboots (Jan 2, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It goes back to @Beezerk post on the previous page. Just how?
		
Click to expand...

If I was a gambling man, it’s a toss up between the impact of the new variant and the fact that this country has totally lost control of the virus. Probably a combination of the two in reality.


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## User62651 (Jan 2, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			This was never a possibility for the UK! While there was a 'lockdown' in NZ, it would be better described as 'Lockout' - something totally unfeasible for UK!
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps but look at Japan and S Korea, both large populations and large economies, busy airport hubs, but a compliant population that are more used to dealing with epidemics and mask wearing. Numbers are incredibly low. Lockdown is not even permitted in Japan.
The covid deniers here are everywhere including influential social media 'personalities', louder than ever . Cant really mention govt except to say groundless optimism is not a strategy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 2, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Perhaps but look at Japan and S Korea, both large populations and large economies, busy airport hubs, but a compliant population that are more used to dealing with epidemics and mask wearing. Numbers are incredibly low. Lockdown is not even permitted in Japan.
The covid deniers here are everywhere including influential social media 'personalities', louder than ever . Cant really mention govt except to say groundless optimism is not a strategy.
		
Click to expand...

In the aftermath of all this we really need to send a team of people across to those two countries to see how they handled this. They are well used to handling SARS scares and that has obviously stood them in good stead.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 2, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Perhaps but look at Japan and *S Korea*, both large populations and large economies, busy airport hubs, but a compliant population that are more used to dealing with epidemics and mask wearing. Numbers are incredibly low. Lockdown is not even permitted in Japan.
The covid deniers here are everywhere including influential social media 'personalities', louder than ever . Cant really mention govt except to say groundless optimism is not a strategy.
		
Click to expand...

And a very different approach to people arriving from abroad....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345210393715564544


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Perhaps but look at Japan and S Korea, both large populations and large economies, busy airport hubs, but a compliant population that are more used to dealing with epidemics and mask wearing. Numbers are incredibly low. Lockdown is not even permitted in Japan.
The covid deniers here are everywhere including influential social media 'personalities', louder than ever . Cant really mention govt except to say groundless optimism is not a strategy.
		
Click to expand...

The amount of data that test track and trace that was accepted and available to S Korea would never have been stood for by the British public. Many can’t be bothered to stick or comply with simple rules. Different cultures which most probably counts for some of it.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Perhaps but look at Japan and S Korea, both large populations and large economies, busy airport hubs, but a compliant population that are more used to dealing with epidemics and mask wearing. Numbers are incredibly low. Lockdown is not even permitted in Japan.
The covid deniers here are everywhere including influential social media 'personalities', louder than ever . Cant really mention govt except to say groundless optimism is not a strategy.
		
Click to expand...

I read an article that said although Japan has fared well in the pandemic it's not clear why as they have not been particularly good at handling measures.  My experience of Japanese people is they are more likely to abide by rules than we are, German people are also more like this.


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## DanFST (Jan 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The amount of data that test track and trace that was accepted and available to S Korea would never have been stood for by the British public. Many can’t be bothered to stick or comply with simple rules. Different cultures which most probably counts for some of it.
		
Click to expand...

The amount of data google/facebook/apple have on everyone here is astounding. 

I think it's more the culture.


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## Old Skier (Jan 2, 2021)

DanFST said:



			The amount of data google/facebook/apple have on everyone here is astounding.

I think it's more the culture.
		
Click to expand...

True but they also had the power to interrogate bank accounts and their app also acted as a gps tracker so if they failed to say exactly where they had been they could be fined.


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## Billysboots (Jan 2, 2021)

I can’t vouch for the legitimacy of these figures, which I have just seen on the Sky News app. But it really highlights that age would seem to be by far and away the biggest risk factor.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 2, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			In the aftermath of all this we really need to send a team of people across to those two countries to see how they handled this. They are well used to handling SARS scares and that has obviously stood them in good stead.
		
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The answer is simple. They are paranoid about it. Go to an airport when things return to normal and watch any Japanese travellers, they're easy to spot they wear masks, all the time. I remember driving a coach to Heathrow pre-lockdown and having a little chuckle at a Japanese girl who pretty much put on a full hazmat outfit before she got on the coach. I wonder who's laughing now?


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## Foxholer (Jan 2, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Perhaps but look at Japan and S Korea, both large populations and large economies, busy airport hubs, but a *compliant population that are more used to dealing with epidemics and mask wearing*. Numbers are incredibly low. Lockdown is not even permitted in Japan.
The covid deniers here are everywhere including influential social media 'personalities', louder than ever . Cant really mention govt except to say groundless optimism is not a strategy.
		
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Completely different strategies! And the highlighted bit is likely the key! Just consider the number of (supposedly sensible) golfers blatantly breaking instructions! 
BTW. My post was purely about the difference between NZ's and UK's situation - not whether either (or Japan's or South Korea's) was 'better'!


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## User62651 (Jan 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I read an article that said although Japan has fared well in the pandemic it's not clear why as they have not been particularly good at handling measures.  My experience of Japanese people is they are more likely to abide by rules than we are, German people are also more like this.
		
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Do you think they are also healthier into older age than us ? Obesity diet etc seems better. No facts on that, just an inkling.


Foxholer said:



			Completely different strategies! And the highlighted bit is likely the key! Just consider the number of (supposedly sensible) golfers blatantly breaking instructions!
BTW. *My post was purely about the difference between NZ's and UK's situation - not whether either (or Japan's or South Korea's) was 'better'*!
		
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I know but still relevant to general discussion as to why some areas do much better than others I think. UK has done awfully with worse to come shortly but little and close Isle of Man has done really really well. That's down to strong leadership as well as an advantageous small island thing.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 2, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Do you think they are also healthier into older age than us ? Obesity diet etc seems better. No facts on that, just an inkling.
		
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Older Japanese people tend to be slim and eat a healther diet. Not so sure about young people, they seem to enjoy a more western lifestyle and you see quite a lot of them obese.  When I used to visit some years ago it was quite normal to see people wearing masks, not sure if it was for protection against germs or the traffic polution which was quite bad, their cities are very big and congested.


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## Ethan (Jan 2, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Do you think they are also healthier into older age than us ? Obesity diet etc seems better. No facts on that, just an inkling.
		
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Parts of Japan are known for their longevity. Seems to be a combination of genetics, healthy active lifestyle in later life, good diet and strong social circles.


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## Foxholer (Jan 3, 2021)

drdel said:



			Really - give it a rest
		
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## road2ruin (Jan 3, 2021)

Another example yesterday of the MSM putting out scare stories which simply isn’t helpful. The BBC gave air time to a nursing matron (Laura Duffel) at Kings College London. She immediately caused panic by claiming that ‘her hospital has ‘a whole ward’ full of children with acute Covid and that her colleagues in other Trusts are in the same position.’ This was rapidly called out by numerous paediatricians across London as being completely untrue. They stopped short of calling her a liar. 

My question is how the BBC can allow someone on to say something like this without doing a bit of fact checking first. They wouldn’t allow an out and out Covid denier on yet they do allow this. Parents are already anxious about sending their children back to school and social media went into overdrive on the back of this with people claiming you could effectively be sending your child to their deaths by doing so.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Parts of Japan are known for their longevity. Seems to be a combination of genetics, healthy active lifestyle in later life, good diet and strong social circles.
		
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My MiL had a 2 week exchange with a Japanese family a good few years ago, part of a church thing. Diet is much healthier but they have a real aversion to milk and other calcium rich foods. Apparently they have a big problem with bone strength and related issues in later years. Nearly ideal but could do with a little tweak.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2021)

I fear that I heard a bit too much ‘we have to wait and see’ from the PM this morning. That’s not getting ahead of the curve...it’s playing catch up...

For instance he tells us that there is most likely going to be tougher restrictions for many if not all of us, and that school closures will increase, and that most of us accept that likelihood - so why not just apply the restrictions and closures now?

Anyway - all I can continue to do is keep my own side of the street clean as best I can


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## Ethan (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My MiL had a 2 week exchange with a Japanese family a good few years ago, part of a church thing. Diet is much healthier but they have a real aversion to milk and other calcium rich foods. Apparently they have a big problem with bone strength and related issues in later years. Nearly ideal but could do with a little tweak.
		
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High levels of lactose intolerance in Japan, so milk is not really part of their cultural diet.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2021)

[


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I fear that I heard a bit too much ‘we have to wait and see’ from the PM this morning. That’s not getting ahead of the curve...it’s playing catch up...

For instance he tells us that there is most likely going to be tougher restrictions and school closures and that most of us accept that likelihood - so why not just apply them now?
		
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I was going to respond and say coz Bojo is a plank and has lost the plot but realised it’s political so am saying nowt. 😷


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			High levels of lactose intolerance in Japan, so milk is not really part of their cultural diet.
		
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yup Ave had that in years gone by. It’s not nice suffering with Urticaria and walking around looking like a fat nutty professor


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			High levels of lactose intolerance in Japan, so milk is not really part of their cultural diet.
		
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Any reason for that, the intolerance? I get that one leads to another but it seems an odd one.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Another example yesterday of the MSM putting out scare stories which simply isn’t helpful. The BBC gave air time to a nursing matron (Laura Duffel) at Kings College London. She immediately caused panic by claiming that ‘her hospital has ‘a whole ward’ full of children with acute Covid and that her colleagues in other Trusts are in the same position.’ This was rapidly called out by numerous paediatricians across London as being completely untrue. They stopped short of calling her a liar.

My question is how the BBC can allow someone on to say something like this without doing a bit of fact checking first. They wouldn’t allow an out and out Covid denier on yet they do allow this. Parents are already anxious about sending their children back to school and social media went into overdrive on the back of this with people claiming you could effectively be sending your child to their deaths by doing so.
		
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Yes I don’t understand how the MSM get away with these stories. Always looking to inflame a situation, never offering any good news, drives me mad...Maybe I should go and do something less boring instead!


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## Ethan (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Any reason for that, the intolerance? I get that one leads to another but it seems an odd one.
		
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Lack of enzymes in the gut, mostly evolutionary with genetic influences. More people in the world are lactose intolerant than tolerant. Humans evolved to consume milk only until weaning, and lost tolerance afterwards. Persisting lactose tolerance only evolved relatively recently in human evolution, and varies around the world, influenced by genetics and food culture. Europeans tend to be pretty tolerant, Asians much less so, so local food culture reflects that. You can get milk and dairy products in Japan, but it will have reduced lactose or lactose substitutes.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2021)

Yet when I went around the world last year. The orientals were buying chocolate in vast quantities to take back. It was unbelievable how much they would buy.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 3, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			[


I was going to respond and say coz Bojo is a plank and has lost the plot but realised it’s political so am saying nowt. 😷
		
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Your getting nearly as crafty as SLH at not making political comments.!


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Your getting nearly as crafty as SLH at not making political comments.!
		
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Yep, with no right of reply.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Yep, with no right of reply.
		
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I’ll note that what I posted was not political - it was a comment on coronavirus strategy and how it might impact us...that the strategy came out of the mouth of ‘you know who‘ is not of my doing 😻


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’ll note that what I posted was not political - it was a comment on coronavirus strategy and how it might impact us...that the strategy came out of the mouth of ‘you know who‘ is not of my doing 😻
		
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Strategy’s are made on the information given by many (experts) with different opinions and then having to make a decision. If circumstances change the willingness to change the strategy seems to be by some not the correct thing to do. These people are usually people who don’t have to make the decision in the first place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Strategy’s are made on the information given by many (experts) with different opinions and then having to make a decision. If circumstances change the willingness to change the strategy seems to be by some not the correct thing to do. These people are usually people who don’t have to make the decision in the first place.
		
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And many times the information is in the public domain and seemingly ignored for whatever reason until they are either embarrassed or forced to revisit said information.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			And many times the information is in the public domain and seemingly ignored for whatever reason until they are either embarrassed or forced to revisit said information.
		
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All arguments from the “experts” have been in the public domain regarding lockdown, no lockdown, open schools, close schools, even the SAGE experts don’t agree with each other.

You make a choice and if it doesn’t work you can either change your direction or carry blindly on. Im not sure what some people want, to change or not to change.

Perhaps we and the critics should be grateful that we don’t have to make the choice.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			All arguments from the “experts” have been in the public domain regarding lockdown, no lockdown, open schools, close schools, even the SAGE experts don’t agree with each other.

You make a choice and if it doesn’t work you can either change your direction or carry blindly on. Im not sure what some people want, to change or not to change.

Perhaps we and the critics should be grateful that we don’t have to make the choice.
		
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Why should we be grateful? If they don’t want the responsibility they can walk away or resign!

Are you honestly suggesting no mistakes or U-turns have been made? Some have happened in less than 24hrs before there has been time for the direction to even start.

The Schools policy is a joke for Tier 4 areas, either we are in this for the same threats or we are not.


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## Billysboots (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			All arguments from the “experts” have been in the public domain regarding lockdown, no lockdown, open schools, close schools, even the SAGE experts don’t agree with each other.

You make a choice and if it doesn’t work you can either change your direction or carry blindly on. Im not sure what some people want, to change or not to change.

*Perhaps we and the critics should be grateful that we don’t have to make the choice.*

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Bang on. In a totally non-political way, I am more than happy to say that politicians of all persuasions, but most certainly those in power, have my utmost sympathy at present. They are absolutely damned if they do, and damned if they don’t. I would not want to make the decisions they are having to make for all the tea in China (irony intended).

They are earning their money and then some at the moment.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Why should we be grateful? If they don’t want the responsibility they can walk away or resign!

Are you honestly suggesting no mistakes or U-turns have been made? Some have happened in less than 24hrs before there has been time for the direction to even start.

The Schools policy is a joke for Tier 4 areas, either we are in this for the same threats or we are not.
		
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Point me at a post where I have said no mistakes or u turns have been made.

Are you qualified to suggest that the schools policy in tier 4 areas was a joke. 75% of teachers that were interviewed on air by the BBC yesterday said it was vital for children to be at school and that they personally felt safer in school than out in shops. I don’t have any school children but I can only assume that they have the ability to make a decent judgement along with expert after expert who suggest that it is more dangerous for children’s mental health and learning and future development to be at school.

Are they right, I don’t know, your opinion is that they are wrong, nothing wrong with that but it doesn’t make you right.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Point me at a post where I have said no mistakes or u turns have been made.

Are you qualified to suggest that the schools policy in tier 4 areas was a joke. 75% of teachers that were interviewed on air by the BBC yesterday said it was vital for children to be at school and that they personally felt safer in school than out in shops. I don’t have any school children but I can only assume that they have the ability to make a decent judgement along with expert after expert who suggest that it is more dangerous for children’s mental health and learning and future development to be at school.

Are they right, I don’t know, your opinion is that they are wrong, nothing wrong with that but it doesn’t make you right.
		
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It’s only my opinion, just like every other poster on here, never suggested I was right.

You initially suggested anyone not in the positions of those decisions makers should not criticise them as they are not in those positions, well I’d suggest going by some of the changes that have only happened when those outside that chain have made the noises.

I have no doubt the best place for a childs learning and future development is in a school, so let’s park that discussion and debate their health and the health of the families and the local communities, but I am yet to see anyone explain how children in one tier 4 area are any safer than a child in different tier 4 area.

Surely if we are going make these decisions it should show parity across the tiers.

If Children and who they interact with is treated differently within the same tier, what else may people think is ok to behave differently?


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s only my opinion, just like every other poster on here, never suggested I was right.

You initially suggested anyone not in the positions of those decisions makers should not criticise them as they are not in those positions, well I’d suggest going by some of the changes that have only happened when those outside that chain have made the noises.

I have no doubt the best place for a childs learning and future development is in a school, so let’s park that discussion and debate their health and the health of the families and the local communities, but I am yet to see anyone explain how children in one tier 4 area are any safer than a child in different tier 4 area.

Surely if we are going make these decisions it should show parity across the tiers.

If Children and who they interact with is treated differently within the same tier, what else may people think is ok to behave differently?
		
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Im only suggesting that us “ordinary people” form our bases of opinion on what we feel is right and it’s done without us having the full facts or taking into consideration the overall needs of the country particularly in the scope of other medical issues and the economy.

My opinion is we should lock down completely for at least another month. Very easy for me to say, I don’t rely on work for an income and HID can work from home. I also realise that that isn’t necessarily good for everybody.

As to the behavior of other people, gave up on that half way through lockdown 1.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im only suggesting that us “ordinary people” form our bases of opinion on what we feel is right and it’s done without us having the full facts or taking into consideration the overall needs of the country particularly in the scope of other medical issues and the economy.

My opinion is we should lock down completely for at least another month. Very easy for me to say, I don’t rely on work for an income and HID can work from home. I also realise that that isn’t necessarily good for everybody.

As to the behavior of other people, gave up on that half way through lockdown 1.
		
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I agree on the complete lockdown, all we seem to be doing is kicking the can down the road on some issues, been a lot of  “chat” with parents of our Juniors today and some are confused/angry etc with the opening/closing policy of schools tomorrow, some have come on and said the advice from the headteachers themselves as to whether some of the schools will be open tomorrow has changed during the day, this can’t be right.


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## User62651 (Jan 3, 2021)

Given the 50000 new cases per day, the lag time from infection thru symptoms to hospitalisation, which can take 3 weeks, it seems so obvious where England is heading yet govt dither on it for at least the 3rd time. It's bizarre frankly. 😕


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply observed that ‘wait and see’ is not consistent with being ‘ahead of the curve’. 

Johnson was clear this morning that more stringent restrictions are very likely to be brought in and more schools closed and that the public will accept these changes.  Well if that is the case then why not just do this now rather than wait and see.  Because the experience to date of ‘waiting to see’ suggests that by the time you ‘see’ it is often too late...
		
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Don’t they have to be voted for in Parliament if more stringent measures  are required.


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## chrisd (Jan 3, 2021)

Strikes me that it's not the kids in school is the real problem,  it's the fact that many teachers are over 50 and vulnerable. Why were they not amongst the first to receive vaccinations?


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 3, 2021)

We don't have decisive action taken by those in charge, we don't have decisive action taken against those caught flouting the rules so what do we expect?
I do everything I can to limit my risk to me and my familiy but I'm sick and tired of the leadership lethargy and those who the rules don't apply to. 
Fine all the rule breakers heavy and make them do 2 weeks in the covid frontline before an enforced 2 week isolation at a detention centre or something.
This isn't something that we can mess about with. We have shown as a country we are willing to let our leaders meander along and we are prepared to let people off punishment for rule breaking.
When will they learn this thing kills and can cause long term damage to you, everyone you pass it to and to the NHS funding requirement.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Given the 50000 new cases per day, the lag time from infection thru symptoms to hospitalisation, which can take 3 weeks, it seems so obvious where England is heading yet govt dither on it for at least the 3rd time. It's bizarre frankly. 😕
		
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Judging by the BBC news same could be said about the Scottish Leader so I’m not sure why you are only looking south.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Strikes me that it's not the kids in school is the real problem,  it's the fact that many teachers are over 50 and vulnerable. Why were they not amongst the first to receive vaccinations?
		
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Race to the top, everyone coming up with a reason for why they should be first. Perhaps we should bump the armed forces to the front as they keep being tasked with jobs nobody else wants to do.


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## Billysboots (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Race to the top, everyone coming up with a reason for why they should be first. Perhaps we should bump the armed forces to the front as they keep being tasked with jobs nobody else wants to do.
		
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And, dare I say it, the police. They are expected, day after day, to get up close and personal with the sort of people who are most likely to flout the rules.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			And, dare I say it, the police. They are expected, day after day, to get up close and personal with the sort of people who are most likely to flout the rules.
		
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Like I said, race to the top. Doubt if any self respecting squaddie, Bobby or professional would wish to jump the queue.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 3, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			And, dare I say it, the police. They are expected, day after day, to get up close and personal with the sort of people who are most likely to flout the rules.
		
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And most likely to be nasty about it. And the officers won't have PPE either.
What a situation to have to deal with.
And any suggestion about getting tough, and there'll be snowflakes everywhere. A right blizzard😀


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## User62651 (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Judging by the BBC news same could be said about the Scottish Leader so I’m not sure why you are only looking south.
		
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Bit defensive, we went into lockdown on 26th Dec as did NI, acted a bit quicker. England avoiding your tier4  in many areas until its too late, no?


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## Billysboots (Jan 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Like I said, race to the top. Doubt if any self respecting squaddie, Bobby or professional would wish to jump the queue.
		
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Absolutely not - just making a point! We could all make a case for moving up the queue, but the facts largely speak for themselves. Those aged 75+ are the biggest risk group by some distance.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 3, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit defensive, we went into lockdown on 26th Dec as did NI, acted a bit quicker. England avoiding your tier4  in many areas until its too late, no?
		
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Over 80% of the population of England fall within Tier 4 so not that many areas.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

So today we have reports of Cheshire Police rescueing people from cars trapped in snow, all but one of the cars had travelled from outside the area!

Why not put a ban on using the car for leisure to 5 miles regardless of tier level.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My MiL had a 2 week exchange with a Japanese family a good few years ago, part of a church thing. Diet is much healthier but they have a real aversion to milk and other calcium rich foods. Apparently they have a big problem with bone strength and related issues in later years. Nearly ideal but could do with a little tweak.
		
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They aren't very good at processing alcohol through their bodies. They would be red faced and staggering after a few halves of beer.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			They aren't very good at processing alcohol through their bodies. They would be red faced and staggering after a few halves of beer.
		
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To be fair, that's me now as well 😆


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 3, 2021)

Struggling for numbers for the rota tomorrow. Got a meeting at 7.30 to find out the next level of escalation or actions to be taken. First day back and for the first time in a long time I am dreading going in, not only because of the expected demands and workload (that be doesn't faze me) but also from a personal safety point of view. I'm very nervous of this new strain and the rate of infection and the chances of getting covid. More so giving it to HID with her health conditions


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So today we have reports of Cheshire Police rescueing people from cars trapped in snow, all but one of the cars had travelled from outside the area!

Why not put a ban on using the car for leisure to 5 miles regardless of tier level.
		
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Cheshire is in tier 4 so no one has an excuse for travelling into it, not that any excuses hold water on this subject anyway. 

I tend to agree on your last point although I'd prefer 10 miles (there may be self interest in this extension suggestion 🏌️‍♂️⛳)


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Bit defensive, we went into lockdown on 26th Dec as did NI, acted a bit quicker. England avoiding your tier4  in many areas until its too late, no?
		
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Nothing to do with 26th, this is happening today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55521541

Nothing to do with being defensive more to acknowledge the fact that ALL four of the countries leaders are having to change strategy on the move along with most other European leaders.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Cheshire is in tier 4 so no one has an excuse for travelling into it, not that any excuses hold water on this subject anyway.

I tend to agree on your last point although I'd prefer 10 miles (there may be self interest in this extension suggestion 🏌️‍♂️⛳)
		
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Whatever the distance someone will want a couple of more mile.


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## Reemul (Jan 3, 2021)

Got an email from my sons school this evening saying that years 6 ,2 and reception are now in from tomorrow but due to lack of teachers other years are shut. My son is year 6 so he will be in but what a mess.

My wife is a teacher in a primary school with a current ongoing recovery issue from cavatating pneumonia meaning she has holes in her lung and the required procedures are delayed due to covid. Her school open from tomorrow as normal, she will have a class of 30 and a teaching assistant and they are not allowed PPE to teach.

On facebook she is looking at pictures of other teachers, teaching assistants and parents all breaking the rules, multi groups in doors, groups of 10+ outside etc etc and those same people will either be in shcool or sending their kids in to school tomorrow and expecting teachers to due their job regardless of their breaches.

On top of that we have some teachers pretty much striking, there was a union meeting at 11am today across the country and many of those teachers were given not safe to work letters which have been sent to schools saying they will not be in, hence half my sons school now being closed.

It's like watching a train wreck happen at the moment.


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## road2ruin (Jan 3, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I am dreading going in, not only because of the expected demands and workload (that be doesn't faze me) but also from a personal safety point of view. I'm very nervous of this new strain and the rate of infection and the chances of getting covid. More so giving it to HID with her health conditions
		
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It seems like all the teachers are presently sending in Section 44 letters to their heads to ensure they don’t have to go into school anymore due to safety grounds. Genuine question, what is to stop you (or anyone else) sending in one yourself if you do feel this way? I’m not sure whether the letter is industry specific however the template is as follows...

Dear [name of head],

Re: Health & Safety

I am writing to you following the increase in transmission and infection rates currently recorded across England.
You are, I am sure, aware that you have legal duties to protect the health, safety and welfare of your staff and pupils. Those duties arise under the following legislation: -

Sections 2 and 3 of the Health & Safety Act 1974
Regulations 3 and 8 of the Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999
Regulation 4 of the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992
Regulation 4 of the Workplace (Health, Safety & Welfare) Regulations 1992
Regulation 7 of the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002
The most recent advice from SAGE is that schools should not open in January[1] other than for children of key workers and vulnerable children. This is because the scientific advice is that it is not safe for schools to open. There are new variants of Covid-19 that are highly infectious and infection rates have increased significantly since schools closed.
I appreciate that measures have been in place since September to allow the school to open but according to SAGE those measures may no longer be sufficient. They state in their most recent report: -
_The introduction of Tier 4 measures in England combined with the school holidays will be informative of the strength of measures required to control the new variant but analysis of this will not be possible until mid-January._
Based on the above I do not believe that it is safe for me to return to teaching or supporting full classes at [name of school].

If I do attend [name of school] I believe that this will present a *serious* and *imminent* danger to my health and safety.
I am therefore writing to inform you that I am exercising my contractual right not to attend an unsafe place of work. I believe that not attending work in the current circumstances is an appropriate step for me to take for the following reasons:

The *dangers* that are preventing me from attending work are the risk of contracting coronavirus and or spreading coronavirus to others.

The *person(s)* I am seeking to protect are myself, my family, our pupils, their families, my colleagues, their families and members of the public.

I believe that this danger is *serious* because coronavirus infection is potentially fatal and has already resulted in more than 73,512 deaths in the UK with a significant up surge in recent weeks.

​[1] https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/948606/s0991-sage-meeting-74-covid-19.pdf


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Whatever the distance someone will want a couple of more mile. 

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it’s shocking that people think like that, 12.8 miles to my club 🤔😳😉


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It seems like all the teachers are presently sending in Section 44 letters to their heads to ensure they don’t have to go into school anymore due to safety grounds. Genuine question, what is to stop you (or anyone else) sending in one yourself if you do feel this way? I’m not sure whether the letter is industry specific however the template is as follows...

Dear [name of head],

Re: Health & Safety

I am writing to you following the increase in transmission and infection rates currently recorded across England.
You are, I am sure, aware that you have legal duties to protect the health, safety and welfare of your staff and pupils. Those duties arise under the following legislation: -

Sections 2 and 3 of the Health & Safety Act 1974
Regulations 3 and 8 of the Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999
Regulation 4 of the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992
Regulation 4 of the Workplace (Health, Safety & Welfare) Regulations 1992
Regulation 7 of the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002
The most recent advice from SAGE is that schools should not open in January[1] other than for children of key workers and vulnerable children. This is because the scientific advice is that it is not safe for schools to open. There are new variants of Covid-19 that are highly infectious and infection rates have increased significantly since schools closed.
I appreciate that measures have been in place since September to allow the school to open but according to SAGE those measures may no longer be sufficient. They state in their most recent report: -
_The introduction of Tier 4 measures in England combined with the school holidays will be informative of the strength of measures required to control the new variant but analysis of this will not be possible until mid-January._
Based on the above I do not believe that it is safe for me to return to teaching or supporting full classes at [name of school].

If I do attend [name of school] I believe that this will present a *serious* and *imminent* danger to my health and safety.
I am therefore writing to inform you that I am exercising my contractual right not to attend an unsafe place of work. I believe that not attending work in the current circumstances is an appropriate step for me to take for the following reasons:

The *dangers* that are preventing me from attending work are the risk of contracting coronavirus and or spreading coronavirus to others.

The *person(s)* I am seeking to protect are myself, my family, our pupils, their families, my colleagues, their families and members of the public.

I believe that this danger is *serious* because coronavirus infection is potentially fatal and has already resulted in more than 73,512 deaths in the UK with a significant up surge in recent weeks.

​[1] https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/948606/s0991-sage-meeting-74-covid-19.pdf

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Are you suggesting health workers send this to their employers.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It seems like all the teachers are presently sending in Section 44 letters to their heads to ensure they don’t have to go into school anymore due to safety grounds. Genuine question, what is to stop you (or anyone else) sending in one yourself if you do feel this way? I’m not sure whether the letter is industry specific however the template is as follows...

Dear [name of head],

Re: Health & Safety

I am writing to you following the increase in transmission and infection rates currently recorded across England.
You are, I am sure, aware that you have legal duties to protect the health, safety and welfare of your staff and pupils. Those duties arise under the following legislation: -

Sections 2 and 3 of the Health & Safety Act 1974
Regulations 3 and 8 of the Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999
Regulation 4 of the Personal Protective Equipment at Work Regulations 1992
Regulation 4 of the Workplace (Health, Safety & Welfare) Regulations 1992
Regulation 7 of the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002
The most recent advice from SAGE is that schools should not open in January[1] other than for children of key workers and vulnerable children. This is because the scientific advice is that it is not safe for schools to open. There are new variants of Covid-19 that are highly infectious and infection rates have increased significantly since schools closed.
I appreciate that measures have been in place since September to allow the school to open but according to SAGE those measures may no longer be sufficient. They state in their most recent report: -
_The introduction of Tier 4 measures in England combined with the school holidays will be informative of the strength of measures required to control the new variant but analysis of this will not be possible until mid-January._
Based on the above I do not believe that it is safe for me to return to teaching or supporting full classes at [name of school].

If I do attend [name of school] I believe that this will present a *serious* and *imminent* danger to my health and safety.
I am therefore writing to inform you that I am exercising my contractual right not to attend an unsafe place of work. I believe that not attending work in the current circumstances is an appropriate step for me to take for the following reasons:

The *dangers* that are preventing me from attending work are the risk of contracting coronavirus and or spreading coronavirus to others.

The *person(s)* I am seeking to protect are myself, my family, our pupils, their families, my colleagues, their families and members of the public.

I believe that this danger is *serious* because coronavirus infection is potentially fatal and has already resulted in more than 73,512 deaths in the UK with a significant up surge in recent weeks.


[1] https://assets.publishing.service.g...ile/948606/s0991-sage-meeting-74-covid-19.pdf

Click to expand...

That letter I totally get.What I don’t get is the government has known for some time that this vaccine is coming.
The table that shows who is getting it and in what order for me is a bit wrong.
Throughout this pandemic, the government has juggled balls trying to balance the economy with managing the pandemic. Yes the elderly are the most vulnerable. But what about those that are now working in supermarkets, teachers, and a few others. That letter what the teachers can send in. There’s nothing stopping a few others doing the same.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That letter I totally get.What I don’t get is the government has known for some time that this vaccine is coming.
The table that shows who is getting it and in what order for me is a bit wrong.
Throughout this pandemic, the government has juggled balls trying to balance the economy with managing the pandemic. Yes the elderly are the most vulnerable. But what about those that are now working in supermarkets, teachers, and a few others. That letter what the teachers can send in. There’s nothing stopping a few others doing the same.
		
Click to expand...

Surely if we are to trust the priority for vaccinations then millions of doses would be wasted on those under 50 who are working in those professions, ie, they are not at the greatest risk. Meaning hundreds of others could die while Billy and Jessie, both aged 30, and teachers/Armed Forces/Police/Supermarket Checkout Staff etc get it when not really needed just yet.


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## road2ruin (Jan 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you suggesting health workers send this to their employers.
		
Click to expand...

No, but surely if some key workers are able to then surely it’d be open to anyone to?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely if we are to trust the priority for vaccinations then millions of doses would be wasted on those under 50 who are working in those professions, ie, they are not at the greatest risk. Meaning hundreds of others could die while Billy and Jessie, both aged 30, and teachers/Armed Forces/Police/Supermarket Checkout Staff etc get it when not really needed just yet.
		
Click to expand...

Not all staff at schools and supermarkets are aged 30, some are elderly and vulnerable, unfortunately schools and supermarkets are the biggest places it can be transmitted.
me I would let the Aldi staff give the vaccine. They would do the country in a weekend 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Not all staff at schools and supermarkets are aged 30, some are elderly and vulnerable, unfortunately schools and supermarkets are the biggest places it can be transmitted.
me I would let the Aldi staff give the vaccine. They would do the country in a weekend 👍
		
Click to expand...

But the elderley and vulnerable are already a priority.

Rupert Murdoch has had his first jab, the Australian born, US Citizen who lives in Henley, meanwhile the papers are full of 90+ yr old UK Veterans who haven’t even been contacted yet.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 3, 2021)

There are simply too many political posts on this thread, please stop or the thread will be closed


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## Dando (Jan 3, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			There are simply too many political posts on this thread, please stop or the thread will be closed
		
Click to expand...

well said!

I blame brexit!


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## fundy (Jan 3, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			There are simply too many political posts on this thread, please stop or the thread will be closed
		
Click to expand...


any chance of dealing with the posters repeatedly breaking the rule rather than closing the thread please?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 3, 2021)

Dando said:



			well said!

I blame brexit!
		
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Where’s my ban hammer gone ? 🙄


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## fundy (Jan 3, 2021)

Dando said:



			well said!

I blame brexit!
		
Click to expand...


exhibit A


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 3, 2021)

fundy said:



			any chance of dealing with the posters repeatedly breaking the rule rather than closing the thread please?
		
Click to expand...

A number of warnings have been issued


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## BiMGuy (Jan 3, 2021)

I hope the teachers sending letters to school saying they will not be attending are not being paid if they are not delivering a full day of lessons online. 

It's disgraceful that schools aren't already prepared to do online learning. Some near us are not opening so they can prepare to deliver lessons online. I excpect my sons schools will send a message out at some point tomorrow saying they aren't opening on Tuesday. What on earth have they been doing for 9 months?


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## Dando (Jan 3, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Where’s my ban hammer gone ? 🙄
		
Click to expand...

It was an EU hammer so no longer valid but your new one will be blue


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 3, 2021)

Dando said:



			It was an EU hammer so no longer valid but your new one will be blue
		
Click to expand...

And made in Poland.


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## Billysboots (Jan 3, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I hope the teachers sending letters to school saying they will not be attending are not being paid if they are not delivering a full day of lessons online.

It's disgraceful that schools aren't already prepared to do online learning. Some near us are not opening so they can prepare to deliver lessons online. I excpect my sons schools will send a message out at some point tomorrow saying they aren't opening on Tuesday. What on earth have they been doing for 9 months?
		
Click to expand...

We’ve been very lucky. My daughter’s college have been setting work online as and when required without any noticeable delay whilst they prepare to go virtual. In this day and age it should not be an issue for any secondary school to deliver online lessons.

I understand it a little more at primary level, where I suspect more 1:1 interaction is needed. But I certainly agree all schools have had ample time to get their acts together.


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## Mudball (Jan 3, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I hope the teachers sending letters to school saying they will not be attending are not being paid if they are not delivering a full day of lessons online.

It's disgraceful that schools aren't already prepared to do online learning. Some near us are not opening so they can prepare to deliver lessons online. I excpect my sons schools will send a message out at some point tomorrow saying they aren't opening on Tuesday. What on earth have they been doing for 9 months?
		
Click to expand...

Today folks have taken to Twatter to say why should their school open if Eton/ Harrow is shut.. interesting thought


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## BiMGuy (Jan 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Today folks have taken to Twatter to say why should their school open if Eton/ Harrow is shut.. interesting thought
		
Click to expand...

Not interested in the politics of envy. Many other private schools are open.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			No, but surely if some key workers are able to then surely it’d be open to anyone to?
		
Click to expand...

Anyone can refuse to go to work, well not exactly everyone but most of us. That's fine but you can't expect to be paid if you stay away.


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## road2ruin (Jan 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Today folks have taken to Twatter to say why should their school open if Eton/ Harrow is shut.. interesting thought
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t that exactly the same thing that happened in June when schools reopened for some years? A certain element of the population got their knickers in a twist about their children being guinea pigs whilst the rich kept their children at home......and absolutely nothing happened.


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## road2ruin (Jan 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Anyone can refuse to go to work, well not exactly everyone but most of us. That's fine but you can't expect to be paid if you stay away.
		
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That’s what the unions are telling teachers to do, on full pay.


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## User62651 (Jan 3, 2021)

Unconfirmed but Scotsman paper reporting Sturgeon will tomorrow extend shutting schools to end January. 
It is very difficult right now - as parents we want them in school but also not spreading virus to us/others. Impacts financially, mentally and all the rest. Enjoying a great spell of cold sunny weather just now so getting out but the January mucky weather never far away which is doubly depressing when cooped up. 😕


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## pauljames87 (Jan 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			That’s what the unions are telling teachers to do, on full pay.
		
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That's because it's part of section 44 of the employment rights act 

https://section44.co.uk/


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's because it's part of section 44 of the employment rights act

https://section44.co.uk/

Click to expand...

I guess the question comes down to the risk assessment and whether the workplace is deemed acceptably safe still.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I guess the question comes down to the risk assessment and whether the workplace is deemed acceptably safe still.
		
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Yes you have to know your actually in the right .. and can prove it

Not just throw it about


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## 4LEX (Jan 3, 2021)

Can someone explain this to me....

In November cases were lower without the mutation and it was a one month lockdown despite NHS capacity being OK.

In January theres an extra 15-20,000 cases a day with the certain Christmas fall out yet to hit, the NHS already being overwhelmed and no lockdown?

Boris tells us he's following the science yet SAGE advised against schools reopening.

I saw him this morning on Andrew Marr and he's an embarrassment to himself, his party and this country. Schools are totally safe today yet there will be stricter measures needed in the days ahead? It makes no sense at all.

He talks about mental health of kids yet ignores that's largely down to the parents. If the parents are anxious, scared and worried it'll impact the kids.

The country doesn't expect perfection in this type of crisis, we expect strong and decisive leadership that doesn't make U-Turns on a weekly basis. We expect someone to learn from their mistakes, not to make them twice or thrice. He's made so many mistakes it's frightening and the ones he's making now will be the ones that'll cost the most lives. Weak leadership equals lack of confidence, respect and compliance. He's entirely to blame.

I know Boris personally through family/work connections years ago and he's a nice guy and highly intelligent. But in an absurd way. He could recite anything in Latin backwards but has no intelligence you'd class as useful. He's never had a proper job and he's a fraud. I hope in the years to come when the real truth emerges he finds himself in the dock for his woeful handling of this crisis.

Germany has a larger population and 30% less cases and even less deaths. Questions need to be asked why


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## Fade and Die (Jan 3, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Can someone explain this to me....

In November cases were lower without the mutation and it was a one month lockdown despite NHS capacity being OK.

In January theres an extra 15-20,000 cases a day with the certain Christmas fall out yet to hit, the NHS already being overwhelmed and no lockdown?

Boris tells us he's following the science yet SAGE advised against schools reopening.

I saw him this morning on Andrew Marr and he's an embarrassment to himself, his party and this country. Schools are totally safe today yet there will be stricter measures needed in the days ahead? It makes no sense at all.

He talks about mental health of kids yet ignores that's largely down to the parents. If the parents are anxious, scared and worried it'll impact the kids.

The country doesn't expect perfection in this type of crisis, we expect strong and decisive leadership that doesn't make U-Turns on a weekly basis. We expect someone to learn from their mistakes, not to make them twice or thrice. He's made so many mistakes it's frightening and the ones he's making now will be the ones that'll cost the most lives. Weak leadership equals lack of confidence, respect and compliance. He's entirely to blame.

I know Boris personally through family/work connections years ago and he's a nice guy and highly intelligent. But in an absurd way. He could recite anything in Latin backwards but has no intelligence you'd class as useful. He's never had a proper job and he's a fraud. I hope in the years to come when the real truth emerges he finds himself in the dock for his woeful handling of this crisis.

Germany has a larger population and 30% less cases and even less deaths. Questions need to be asked why 

Click to expand...

This post will probably get removed but it is 100% correct....And I’m a member of the Conservative party.


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## 4LEX (Jan 3, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			This post will probably get removed but it is 100% correct....And I’m a member of the Conservative party.
		
Click to expand...

I am too. But right and wrong comes over politcal parties


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Can someone explain this to me....

In November cases were lower without the mutation and it was a one month lockdown despite NHS capacity being OK.

In January theres an extra 15-20,000 cases a day with the certain Christmas fall out yet to hit, the NHS already being overwhelmed and no lockdown?

Boris tells us he's following the science yet SAGE advised against schools reopening.

I saw him this morning on Andrew Marr and he's an embarrassment to himself, his party and this country. Schools are totally safe today yet there will be stricter measures needed in the days ahead? It makes no sense at all.

He talks about mental health of kids yet ignores that's largely down to the parents. If the parents are anxious, scared and worried it'll impact the kids.

The country doesn't expect perfection in this type of crisis, we expect strong and decisive leadership that doesn't make U-Turns on a weekly basis. We expect someone to learn from their mistakes, not to make them twice or thrice. He's made so many mistakes it's frightening and the ones he's making now will be the ones that'll cost the most lives. Weak leadership equals lack of confidence, respect and compliance. He's entirely to blame.

I know Boris personally through family/work connections years ago and he's a nice guy and highly intelligent. But in an absurd way. He could recite anything in Latin backwards but has no intelligence you'd class as useful. He's never had a proper job and he's a fraud. I hope in the years to come when the real truth emerges he finds himself in the dock for his woeful handling of this crisis.

Germany has a larger population and 30% less cases and even less deaths. Questions need to be asked why 

Click to expand...

In my opinion, applying restrictions is "off-brand" for his pseudo-libertarian mindset. He prefers giving away stuff, making grand(iose) announcements and waffling about ancient Greeks and Churchill. He has used scientific advice when its suited him, and counselled different advice knowing what it would be, for example a couple of known skeptic scientists about Christmas lockdown.

But cases and deaths are real and can't be waffled away with grand words, so inevitably he is dragged, too late, to action.

Schools are a key issue. He knows that if people see schools open, they perceive life to be on the side of the equation marked 'relatively normal'. If schools are shut, it is on the 'under attack' side. He really doesn't like the latter, and knows if schools have to close, public sentiment will turn bad in the places he wants them on board. Many of us will be somewhat relived, though.

I have never met him, but am not sure that Johnson is all that intelligent. Highly educated, certainly. I have met plenty of his type, and such people can maintain a plausible appearance of intelligence with lots of techniques to cope with debate and discussion, but if you tunnel deeper, it crumbles.

Germany had better basic infrastructure and Merkel is clear, decisive and bold in her actions. The people tend to better listen to advice and instruction given in those terms.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

4LEX said:



			I am too. But right and wrong comes over politcal parties 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, due to the rules it can’t be responded to.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 4, 2021)

I'm left feeling very let down and disappointed with our NHS today after the roll out of the Oxford/Astra Zenica vaccine. 

Just a few weeks ago we had the massive fan fare of the Pfizer vaccine and William Shakespeare getting one of the first doses.

Was it too much to ask for Oxford/AZ to rise to the challenge. I was hoping for a Winston Churchill, a William Wordsworth or a John Constable. But no such luck. Today we got bleeding Brian Pinker. Very, very disappointing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In my opinion, applying restrictions is "off-brand" for his pseudo-libertarian mindset. He prefers giving away stuff, making grand(iose) announcements and waffling about ancient Greeks and Churchill. He has used scientific advice when its suited him, and counselled different advice knowing what it would be, for example a couple of known skeptic scientists abut Christmas lockdown. 

But cases and deaths are real and can't be waffled away with brand words, so inevitably he is dragged, too late, to action. 

Schols are a key issue. He knows that if people see schools open, they perceive life to be on the side of the equation marked 'relatively normal'. If schools are shut, it is on the 'under attack' side. He really doesn't like the latter, and knows if schools have to close, public sentiment will turn bad in the places he wants them on board. Many of us will be somewhat relived, though. 

I have never met him, but am not sure that Johnson is all that intelligent. Highly educated, certainly. I have met plenty of his type, and such people can maintain a plausible appearance of intelligence with lots of techniques to cope with debate and discussion, but if you tunnel deeper, it crumbles. 

Germany had better basic infrastructure and Merkel is clear, decisive and bold in her actions. The people tend to better listen to advice and instruction given in those terms.
		
Click to expand...

Well, taking the chance to expand from your expertise, even though it is against the rules. 
Your post here is an out and out attack on Boris.  Nothing  less.
When you post on things medical, pandemic in particular, then it is clear 
you are an expert , but throughout you are clearly itching to disparage this government , I suspect because they are  Tory and you are not.
I think you display some arrogance when you go on to decide who is intelligent and who is not. It isn't enough for you to just disagree with his policies and decisions.
I wonder what you ( any of us ?) would be like in the "hot seat".
Theodore Roosevelt said it right.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, taking the chance to expand from your expertise, even though it is against the rules.
Your post here is an out and out attack on Boris.  Nothing  less.
When you post on things medical, pandemic in particular, then it is clear
you are an expert , but throughout you are clearly itching to disparage this government , I suspect because they are  Tory and you are not.
I think you display some arrogance when you go on to decide who is intelligent and who is not. It isn't enough for you to just disagree with his policies and decisions.
I wonder what you ( any of us ?) would be like in the "hot seat".
Theodore Roosevelt said it right.
		
Click to expand...

Whatever. Intelligence produces intelligent decisions. We haven't seen much of those. Some of the decisions have been patently stupid and reckless, others more a matter of opinion. You are fine with someone saying he is intelligent, but not with someone saying he is not. That is hypocrisy. I am not a Tory but there are plenty of decent Tories. The PM is not one of them.

As for the snarky 'Could you do better' traditional excuse of those who defend the indefensible, the execution of policy is done by civil servants and Govt bodies,. Policy needs to be developed by Ministers and proposals are brought to them to execute. The basic principles of the public health response (and I was a public health doctor) are simple enough, the execution is of course more cimplex, but these basic principles, testing, gathering as much data as possible, scale up from the ground using local resources already in place, were all ignored. The opposite was done in some cases. Tracing was stopped, testing was handed to an expensive and incompetent private company. Locking down airports and enforcing quarantine. Accept the offer to join EU procurement. All that stuff would have made a massive difference. 

I did not want Johnson to screw this up, because it is my friends and family who pay the price, but he did.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Whatever. Intelligence produces intelligent decisions. We haven't seen much of those. Some of the decisions have been patently stupid and reckless, others more a matter of opinion. You are fine with someone saying he is intelligent, but not with someone saying he is not. That is hypocrisy. I am not a Tory but there are plenty of decent Tories. The PM is not one of them.
		
Click to expand...

Blatant politics. Ģermany has a different basis of recording.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			Blatant politics. Ģermany has a different basis of recording.
		
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Which makes no difference. They have indisputably had a much much better pandemic than the UK.


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm left feeling very let down and disappointed with our NHS today after the roll out of the Oxford/Astra Zenica vaccine.

Just a few weeks ago we had the massive fan fare of the Pfizer vaccine and William Shakespeare getting one of the first doses.

Was it too much to ask for Oxford/AZ to rise to the challenge. I was hoping for a Winston Churchill, a William Wordsworth or a John Constable. But no such luck.* Today we got bleeding Brian Pinker.* Very, very disappointing.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe its a pseudonym, remember Marion Morrison or David Jones?


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, taking the chance to expand from your expertise, even though it is against the rules.
Your post here is an out and out attack on Boris.  Nothing  less.
When you post on things medical, pandemic in particular, then it is clear
you are an expert , but throughout you are clearly itching to disparage this government , I suspect because they are  Tory and you are not.
I think you display some arrogance when you go on to decide who is intelligent and who is not. It isn't enough for you to just disagree with his policies and decisions.
I wonder what you ( any of us ?) would be like in the "hot seat".
Theodore Roosevelt said it right.
		
Click to expand...

I note you didn't have a go at the post which kicked this temporary diversion off. Typical.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

I am afraid I was not filled with a great deal of confidence this morning when listening to the Health Secretary being interviewed on Today.

In fact what I heard worried me that the roll-out of the Oxford/AZ vaccine might not go as 'hoped' for - and that the PM's setting our expectations yesterday of things being (well on the way to being) sorted by Easter are perhaps less than well-founded...

Meanwhile I am wondering what has happened to the recruitment over the last four months of all the additional teachers and teaching assistants and building and acquisition of temporary accommodation that would now be able to provide 'physical' teaching in a safe way - and to provide close support to on-line remote teaching.  Maybe it's there - but there are clearly very significant concerns.

Likewise I am not hearing that there has been significant recruitment of nurses over the last four months to support opening of the Nightingale hospitals if they are needed in the coming weeks and months - and we hear that resourcing issues may well restrict the degree to which the Nightingale's can be reopened.

We have known for many months that there was a risk that was has happened would happened - in fact we have known about the risk of a very significant second wave since the outset, yet it appears we are unprepared and scrabbling to get on top of things.  We appear to have put all out eggs in the vaccine basket - and hence why I am worried about what I have heard these last two days.

_*Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you? *_ It is currently making me very worried that we are going to be living in a very restricted world well into the summer...if not for longer.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am afraid I was not filled with a great deal of confidence this morning when listening to the Health Secretary being interviewed on Today.

In fact what I heard worried me that the roll-out of the Oxford/AZ vaccine might not go as 'hoped' for - and that the PM's setting our expectations yesterday of things being (well on the way to being) sorted by Easter are perhaps less than well-founded...

Meanwhile I am wondering what has happened to the recruitment over the last four months of all the additional teachers and teaching assistants and building and acquisition of temporary accommodation that would now be able to provide 'physical' teaching in a safe way - and to provide close support to on-line remote teaching.  Maybe it's there - but there are clearly very significant concerns.

Likewise I am not hearing that there has been significant recruitment of nurses over the last four months to support opening of the Nightingale hospitals if they are needed in the coming weeks and months - and we hear that resourcing issues may well restrict the degree to which the Nightingale's can be reopened.

We have known for many months that there was a risk that was has happened would happened - in fact we have known about the risk of a very significant second wave since the outset, yet it appears we are unprepared and scrabbling to get on top of things.  We appear to have put all out eggs in the vaccine basket - and hence why I am worried about what I have heard these last two days.
		
Click to expand...

Did he explain how the administration of first vaccs will be affected when, in 12 weeks, the floods of second shot people also need appointments?

The vaccine basket is a critical one, but the process of picking up volunteers to assist (like me and many retired doctors) has been appallingly slow and unresponsive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Did he explain how the administration of first vaccs will be affected when, in 12 weeks, the floods of second shot people also need appointments?

The vaccine basket is a critical one, but the process of picking up volunteers to assist (like me and many retired doctors) has been appallingly slow and unresponsive.
		
Click to expand...

No he didn't.  He couldn't give any indication of their vaccination plan numbers - other than note what AZ are stating as their target supply figure.  Yet he must surely know what is required to hit the Easter target the PM talked of yesterday.  He did say that there was the resource in place to vaccinate in accordance with AZ *current *delivery (I think he was talking of this week but I am not sure on that)

My wife is registered on the NHS Professionals website (she registered for Track and Trace but was not required).  She is a semi-retired Nurse Specialist and very capable of administering a vaccination.  Has she been contacted?  Well I think that you'll know the answer to that.  She will look to see who she contacts to ask if she is needed,


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife is registered on the NHS Professionals website (she registered for Track and Trace but was not required).  She is a semi-retired Nurse Specialist and very capable of administering a vaccination.  Has she been contacted?  Well I think that you'll know the answer to that.  She will look to see who she contacts to ask if she is needed,
		
Click to expand...

Yes, many people are having to use informal contacts to get anywhere.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, many people are having to use informal contacts to get anywhere.
		
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She could have been contacted weeks if not months ago to see if she'd be available to do vaccinations...then onboarded and provided with all the pre-requisite training - so that today she'd be sitting ready and waiting for the call and being assigned to a vaccination centre.  Didn't happen.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2021)

Is it ok for us all to start posting politics or is it reserved for those of a particular following.

I am a bit miffed with some here making outright political posts, I would like to respond to them but I know I would be warned if I did, or the thread would be closed. So I don't.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it ok for us all to start posting politics or is it reserved for those of a particular following.

I am a bit miffed with some here making outright political posts, I would like to respond to them but I know I would be warned if I did, or the thread would be closed. So I don't.
		
Click to expand...

Are you miffed only with some (like me) making political posts, or all, including those who express a political view more in line with your own?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it ok for us all to start posting politics or is it reserved for those of a particular following.

I am a bit miffed with some here making outright political posts, I would like to respond to them but I know I would be warned if I did or the thread would be closed. So I don't.
		
Click to expand...

What I have posted is explicitly on how decisions that are being made or not made are affecting me.

I am not commenting *whatsoever *on the politics of the individuals making the decisions.  I am reflecting on what our Prime Minister and Health Secretary are telling me what I must do and what the future months hold for me.

If I should not have the concerns that I do then please help me understand why.


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## DRW (Jan 4, 2021)

Covid finds a way to infect, that a lockdown cant stop 

Probable Evidence of Fecal Aerosol Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in a High-Rise Building | Annals of Internal Medicine (acpjournals.org)


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## Beezerk (Jan 4, 2021)

I'm expecting another thread lockdown soon 🙈


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 4, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I'm expecting another thread lockdown soon 🙈
		
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Maybe instead of a full lockdown we could have a more targeted approach. Maybe a tier system whereby those with a higher propensity to make political posts are hit with tougher measures than those in lower tiers.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 4, 2021)

DRW said:



			Covid finds a way to infect, that a lockdown cant stop 

Probable Evidence of Fecal Aerosol Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in a High-Rise Building | Annals of Internal Medicine (acpjournals.org)

Click to expand...

Well thats a really sh*t bit of news


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2021)

This thread invites you to comment on how the Corona virus has affected you, that's it.
Criticising politicians on how they have handled the situation is political and therefor not allowed.
In my opinion.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jan 4, 2021)

Those that want to reply to the politics, should and deal with the consequences or leave it to the mods. The schoolyard finger pointing is equally if not more annoying.


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2021)

or more accurately public compliance....

But the thread wasnt meant to go in this direction!


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2021)

. it is time to dust off _"the man in the arena" _speech.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you miffed only with some (like me) making political posts, or all, including those who express a political view more in line with your own?
		
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No


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2021)

Kaz said:



			There are many reasons compliance is poor and the onus is on the governments to put measures in place to improve matters. They clearly haven’t done enough.
		
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No. The onus should be on individuals to comply with the rules as set out. Many people aren't and look where we are.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2021)

Having started this thread as an arena to discuss the personal impact felt by individuals it clearly being diverted by the usual characters and infected by  chest pumping  political inferences.

Any chance we can grow up and get back on track?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

I hope that I am succeeding in my attempt to be diligent in not making any comment on any *political *considerations that might be associated with the decisions that are being made - in fact I am not really that bothered about any such considerations - they are for another time.  I am simply commenting on the impact on me, and those close to me, of the decisions themselves.  *That *is what this thread is about.

I am also not making any comments on the competence of the politicians making the decisions - though if I am allowed I will say that I 100% recognise that the pandemic was never going to be an easy thing for the government to navigate our way through, and that there were always going to be some very difficult decisions to be made.  Some decisions would be seen to have been correct whilst others less so - with many only being able to be judged with the benefit of 'retrospectacles'.

Today I am only really bothered that we (public and politicians) *learn *from past decisions and outcomes to help make the best decisions for issues that need addressing today and looking ahead.   And to learn we have to debate, analyse and discuss.   And we do so in the context of our experience and that of the experience of those we know and care for.  We have to have that debate because any measures implemented need the support of the public and we need to understand what and why.

Bottom line for me is that for as long as significant uncertainty remains I will be holding off triggering the date I will hang up my working boots.  And for me that is *very *significant.


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I hope that I am succeeding in my attempt to be diligent in not making any comment on any *political *considerations that might be associated with the decisions that are being made - in fact I am not really that bothered about any such considerations - they are for another time.  I am simply commenting on the impact on me, and those close to me, of the decisions themselves.  *That *is what this thread is about.

I am also not making any comments on the competence of the politicians making the decisions - though if I am allowed I will say that I 100% recognise that the pandemic was never going to be an easy thing for the government to navigate our way through, and that there were always going to be some very difficult decisions to be made.  Some decisions would be seen to have been correct whilst others less so - with many only being able to be judged with the benefit of 'retrospectacles'.

Today I am only really bothered that we (public and politicians) *learn *from past decisions and outcomes to help make the best decisions for issues that need addressing today and looking ahead.   And to learn we have to debate, analyse and discuss.   And we do so in the context of our experience and that of the experience of those we know and care for.  We have to have that debate because any measures implemented need the support of the public and we need to understand what and why.

Bottom line for me is that for as long as significant uncertainty remains I will be holding off triggering the date I will hang up my working boots.  And for me that is *very *significant.
		
Click to expand...

If you read the first post I think you have twisted the aim.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Which makes no difference. They have indisputably had a much much better pandemic than the UK.
		
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What is a better pandemic, its the same pandemic.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Did he explain how the administration of first vaccs will be affected when, in 12 weeks, the floods of second shot people also need appointments?

The vaccine basket is a critical one, but the process of picking up volunteers to assist (like me and many retired doctors) has been appallingly slow and unresponsive.
		
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Which is under the control of the NHS as you well know and has nothing to do with the government. NHS administration has always been the weak link in the chain and not just during the current crises.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

Kaz said:



			There are many reasons compliance is poor and the onus is on the governments to put measures in place to improve matters. They clearly haven’t done enough.
		
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The PM has said this morning that there is "no question" the government will announce stricter measures to prevent the spread of coronavirus "in due course".

If that is the case, then surely to God the stricter measures should be announced and put into force now, not "in due course"? What are we waiting for?


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What I have posted is explicitly on how decisions that are being made or not made are affecting me.

I am not commenting *whatsoever *on the politics of the individuals making the decisions.  I am reflecting on what our Prime Minister and Health Secretary are telling me what I must do and what the future months hold for me.

If I should not have the concerns that I do then please help me understand why.
		
Click to expand...

Your not, your blaming the failings in the NHS on the government. The NHS is full of overpaid under achievers in the management and administrative positions but you keep pointing the finger at the government because once again nobody’s taking any notice of a member of your family.


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## Bdill93 (Jan 4, 2021)

Another day of rubbish at work following uncertainty in the country!

My school falls on a tier 3 and tier 4 boundary, logistically a nightmare for us at the moment.

Senior leaders in school trying to make plans without knowing the governments plans, staff not returning due to union advice, parents panicking. 

What a fun first day back! I miss the summer!


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## drdel (Jan 4, 2021)

NB. Germany's population density just over half that of England.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Another day of rubbish at work following uncertainty in the country!

My school falls on a tier 3 and tier 4 boundary, logistically a nightmare for us at the moment.

Senior leaders in school trying to make plans without knowing the governments plans, staff not returning due to union advice, parents panicking.

What a fun first day back! I miss the summer!
		
Click to expand...

If those responsible have carried out the correct risk assessment the unions are encouraging their members to break their employment contract and those staff should be treated accordingly.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 4, 2021)

How do you determine a school is safe though?

If a teacher catches COVID at school and does, can you really say it is safe?


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



			This thread invites you to comment on how the Corona virus has affected you, that's it.
*Criticising politicians on how they have handled the situation is political and therefor not allowed.*
In my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Disagreeing with (or praising) government policies is political. Highlighting a lack of competence is not political (with the exception of those who have a loaded agenda).

The Chancellor has had a lot of praise from people who have levelled criticism at the Education Secretary. Are they being "political"?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			The PM has said this morning that there is "no question" the government will announce stricter measures to prevent the spread of coronavirus "in due course".

If that is the case, then surely to God the stricter measures should be announced and put into force now, not "in due course"? *What are we waiting for?[*/QUOTE]
This for me is the 60k dollar question. What is the tipping point re going into lockdown. How many deaths, how many infections. What exactly is Tashyboy missing. Surely we have leaders that are supposed to be here to protect us and it just ain’t happening. 
Theres one thing that is puzzling me at the moment. Surely the scientists that are advising the government cannot agree with the measures that are being enforced at the moment. Or do they?
		
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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			How do you determine a school is safe though?

If a teacher catches COVID at school and does, can you really say it is safe?
		
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There could be an issue with the burden of proof as to where the Covid was caught. The school needs to ensure that all guidelines and safe practice policies are being followed. Employers can do no more.


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## Captainron (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Your not, your blaming the failings in the NHS on the government. The NHS is full of overpaid under achievers in the management and administrative positions but you keep pointing the finger at the government because once again nobody’s taking any notice of a member of your family.
		
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@HomerJSimpson won’t take this sort of slur on his working capabilities lying down.....


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you miffed only with some (like me) making political posts, or all, including those who express a political view more in line with your own?
		
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Since the last warning where have been the politica posts countering yours and SILH?. You are both having a whale of a time at the moment. 
The only countering has been to say you shouldn't be making political posts.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



@HomerJSimpson won’t take this sort of slur on his working capabilities lying down.....
		
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I’ll take myself off and enjoy a good spanking.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If those responsible have carried out the correct risk assessment the unions are encouraging their members to break their employment contract and those staff should be treated accordingly.
		
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Yeah, let's start sacking the teachers, what a great idea. who cares if they have a legitimate concern about their health?

If we persist with sending kids back to school while there are 2 new virulent strains going round, I dread to think what the infection and death figures are going to look like in a month's time.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			How do you determine a school is safe though?

If a teacher catches COVID at school and does, can you really say it is safe?
		
Click to expand...

That is what risk assesments are about though. You put procedures into place and if they are deemed reasonable and effective then you crack on. If they are clearly unsafe then there is an issue and you close until things are changed. It's the same with any workplace

My wife runs with a friend who is a teacher in a 1st school up here, aged 4-9. Between Sept and end of term they had 1 positive case. I think you could comfortably say that school was safe to work in, their procedures are effective. We have to be careful not to shut down every school when many are managing very well, have adapted as needed.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Yeah, let's start sacking the teachers, what a great idea. who cares if they have a legitimate concern about their health?

If we persist with sending kids back to school while there are 2 new virulent strains going round, I dread to think what the infection and death figures are going to look like in a month's time.
		
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Wonder what your attitude would be if all the nurses, doctors, paramedics, police, armed forces and others providing essential services pulled the same stunt.

Things aren’t pleasant for some groups of workers, the simple choice is give in or crack on.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Yeah, let's start sacking the teachers, what a great idea. who cares if they have a legitimate concern about their health?

If we persist with sending kids back to school while there are 2 new virulent strains going round, I dread to think what the infection and death figures are going to look like in a month's time.
		
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And the moans about how children's education and mental health is being affected by staying home.  No win in that game.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jan 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			NB. Germany's population density just over half that of England.
		
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That stat has been debunked a number of times already in this and other threads


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## SatchFan (Jan 4, 2021)

Be interested to see the supermarket staff play the health and safety card. Fried toilet roll, anyone?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2021)

What you are missing at the moment Tashboy is the part where people have responsibility for their own actions, and I mean everyone not just politicians.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is what risk assesments are about though. You put procedures into place and if they are deemed reasonable and effective then you crack on. If they are clearly unsafe then there is an issue and you close until things are changed. It's the same with any workplace

My wife runs with a friend who is a teacher in a 1st school up here, aged 4-9. Between Sept and end of term they had 1 positive case. I think you could comfortably say that school was safe to work in, their procedures are effective. We have to be careful not to shut down every school when many are managing very well, have adapted as needed.
		
Click to expand...

Ask the risk changes, the risk assessment needs to change to ensure everyone’s safety.

At my wife’s school, they had an outbreak at the end of term and unfortunately one of the teachers passed away. Over 50% of the teachers have tested positive along with a number of students. It would appear that something happened to make the environment no longer safe. Up until that point they had not even had a scare.

Their view is that they are only open for key workers/vulnerable children until they are happy with the risk assessment.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			What is a better pandemic, its the same pandemic.
		
Click to expand...

You know what I mean.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Wonder what your attitude would be if all the nurses, doctors, paramedics, police, armed forces and others providing essential services pulled the same stunt.

*Things aren’t pleasant for some groups of workers, the simple choice is give in or crack on.*

Click to expand...

Strange how yesterday we couldn’t make the same comment towards politicians.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



*Ask the risk changes, the risk assessment needs to change to ensure everyone’s safety.*

At my wife’s school, they had an outbreak at the end of term and unfortunately one of the teachers passed away. Over 50% of the teachers have tested positive along with a number of students. It would appear that something happened to make the environment no longer safe. Up until that point they had not even had a scare.

Their view is that they are only open for key workers/vulnerable children until they are happy with the risk assessment.
		
Click to expand...

I completely agree and that will be down to the head, deputy etc to monitor. Someone may get a pad of paper and a pen out once a year to do a formal risk assesment but in reality managers should be doing them constantly in their heads. In the current circumstances that is especially so. 

What does your wife believe changed at her school? What altered?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I note you didn't have a go at the post which kicked this temporary diversion off. Typical.
		
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Unfortunately there isn't a "dislike" button, otherwise the post you refer to would have got such an endorsement. However, I sort of replied to it , by replying to yours (which showed your reply was to that post).
I could have replied separately but in the interests of brevity I replied to yours.😉


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What you are missing at the moment Tashboy is the part where people have responsibility for their own actions, and I mean everyone not just politicians.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you on this. No, really.

Individual responsibility is important, but it is tied up with the messaging. Clear, calm and logical regulations get followed better than ones which seem to be reluctantly applied and delayed, or which are vague or contradictory in places. And the words need to be followed up by deeds. Jacinta Arden (NZ) forced her Health Minister to resign when he breached the rules.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Unfortunately there isn't a "dislike" button, otherwise the post you refer to would have got such an endorsement. However, I sort of replied to it , by replying to yours (which showed your reply was to that post).
I could have replied separately but in the interests of brevity I replied to yours.😉
		
Click to expand...

OK, fair enough.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			Having started this thread as an arena to discuss the personal impact felt by individuals it clearly being diverted by the usual characters and infected by  chest pumping  political inferences.

Any chance we can grow up and get back on track?
		
Click to expand...

And yet most of your recent posts have not met your op.

The issue is not whether a person is being political with a comment or criticising an individual in a position of authority, the issue is the fact 99% of posters have their political bias and read those posts from the point of view they believe the political affiliation the poster holds.

Nobody ever moans when a minister or politician is being praised.

If you want proof of what I’m saying, just take a look at the ”likes” and try and work out the political beliefs of those posting the said ”like”.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

Just seen "the Old BAILEY Live "  on the TV news.  There seems to be no thought whatsoever about trying to prevent spread of Covid.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			And yet most of your recent posts have not met your op.

The issue is not whether a person is being political with a comment or criticising an individual in a position of authority, the issue is the fact 99% of posters have their political bias and read those posts from the point of view they believe the political affiliation the poster holds.

Nobody ever moans when a minister or politician is being praised.

If you want proof of what I’m saying, just take a look at the ”likes” and try and work out the political beliefs of those posting the said ”like”.
		
Click to expand...

Bravo 👏👏👏


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Which is under the control of the NHS as you well know and has nothing to do with the government. NHS administration has always been the weak link in the chain and not just during the current crises.
		
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That first statement is somewhere between naive and laughable. It isn't the NHS promising how many vaccines will be ordered, given, when and to whom.


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## Kellfire (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			And yet most of your recent posts have not met your op.

The issue is not whether a person is being political with a comment or criticising an individual in a position of authority, the issue is the fact 99% of posters have their political bias and read those posts from the point of view they believe the political affiliation the poster holds.

Nobody ever moans when a minister or politician is being praised.

If you want proof of what I’m saying, just take a look at the ”likes” and try and work out the political beliefs of those posting the said ”like”.
		
Click to expand...

People (by and large) will struggle to admit the people they voted for are making huge mistakes. Those who voted differently won’t feel the same. That’s just basic human behaviour - we tend to double down rather than admit mistakes.


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Just seen "the Old BAILEY Live "  on the TV news.  There seems to be no thought whatsoever about trying to prevent spread of Covid.
		
Click to expand...

It is certainly a point made a number of times in the profession. We are a profession that it much derided and insulted but we have got on with keeping the justice system running, produced wills for those who, quite rightly, feel that now is the time to ensure that their affairs are in order, kept on with family and child protection cases which have, understandably, increased during lockdown etc with many taking little or no time off to ensure that their client needs are met.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What you are missing at the moment Tashboy is the part where people have responsibility for their own actions, and I mean everyone not just politicians.
		
Click to expand...

I totally get that, but the figures at the moment are the fall out of having a lovely Christmas dinner together. Which has passed the virus onto others onto others etc etc. How long do we persist with a mixed message lockdown. As in some schools are closed in tier 4 other tier fours not. 🤔


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I agree with you on this. No, really.

Individual responsibility is important, but it is tied up with the messaging. Clear, calm and logical regulations get followed better than ones which seem to be reluctantly applied and delayed, or which are vague or contradictory in places. And the words need to be followed up by deeds. Jacinta Arden (NZ) forced her Health Minister to resign when he breached the rules.
		
Click to expand...

Nail hit firmly on head


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			NB. Germany's population density just over half that of England.
		
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funkycoldmedina said:



			That stat has been debunked a number of times already in this and other threads
		
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Can you please explain? Seem about right to me? 55% (240/433 = 55.4)

Germany is 240 people per square kilometer see here

England (Not UK) is 433 people per square kilometer see here


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It is certainly a point made a number of times in the profession. We are a profession that it much derided and insulted but we have got on with keeping the justice system running, produced wills for those who, quite rightly, feel that now is the time to ensure that their affairs are in order, kept on with family and child protection cases which have, understandably, increased during lockdown etc with many taking little or no time off to ensure that their client needs are met.
		
Click to expand...

My son is doing jury duty in Newcastle tomorrow. It will be interesting to hear how they manage it all. The courts in Newcastle are pretty new but even so they are not designed for this, where is to be fair?


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My son is doing jury duty in Newcastle tomorrow. It will be interesting to hear how they manage it all. The courts in Newcastle are pretty new but even so they are not designed for this, where is to be fair?
		
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Been a while since I have done court work but cannot recall many jury boxes that would have the room to socially distance or the ability to install perspex dividers.


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## SatchFan (Jan 4, 2021)

I'm still adhering to the Govt's three syllable advice of Hands, Space, Face. Working for me so far.....


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That first statement is somewhere between naive and laughable. It isn't the NHS promising how many vaccines will be ordered, given, when and to whom.
		
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And I thought you were in the know. Remind me who the body are that recommended on the priorities for vaccination as to numbers of vaccines, they have been ordered and payed for, I presume the production is the responsibility of the company, can’t remember seeing a production line in the HOC.

PS feel free to get personal, it shows were your true prejudices lie, like your posts, mine are based on an opinion.


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## Junior (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I agree with you on this. No, really.

Individual responsibility is important, but it is tied up with the messaging. Clear, calm and *logical regulations* get followed better than ones which seem to be reluctantly applied and delayed, or which are vague or contradictory in places. And the words need to be followed up by deeds. Jacinta Arden (NZ) forced her Health Minister to resign when he breached the rules.
		
Click to expand...

And this is the issue.  Whats logical to you and I (wear a mask, don't go out if you don't have too, rule of 6 etc) isn't to someone else.  

Im not having a go at you btw, Just those who are largely selfish, self entitled and have failed to adhere to any rules that have been put in place. 

These type of people will never adhere to the rules whether clear and concise or not.  I didn't vote for this govt but I'm not sure what they can do about those who don't adhere to the rules.  Fines don't seem to be a deterrent.   Certainly don't have the resources to lock them up.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Can you please explain? Seem about right to me? 55% (240/433 = 55.4)

Germany is 240 people per square kilometer see here

England (Not UK) is 433 people per square kilometer see here

Click to expand...

Don’t let facts get in the way of a debunked argument


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 4, 2021)

My gf's colleague flew to Mexico for a holiday yesterday. Hasn't really affected me as such, more than that I'm even more convinced that you'd need proper authoritarian laws invoked to fight this. Not saying that would be right, but people are going to be people, which is stupid.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			And I thought you were in the know. Remind me who the body are that recommended on the priorities for vaccination as to numbers of vaccines, they have been ordered and payed for, I presume the production is the responsibility of the company, can’t remember seeing a production line in the HOC.

PS feel free to get personal, it shows were your true prejudices lie, like your posts, mine are based on an opinion.
		
Click to expand...

The Govt determined how many and which to order. If you think bodies like the JCVI are independent, you need to waken up. Anticipating production problems and having contingencies is a basic first day role for a junior project manager.

And if you didn't notice, you are getting personal too.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2021)

Junior said:



			And this is the issue.  Whats logical to you and I (wear a mask, don't go out if you don't have too, rule of 6 etc) isn't to someone else. 

Im not having a go at you btw, Just those who are largely selfish, self entitled and have failed to adhere to any rules that have been put in place.

These type of people will never adhere to the rules whether clear and concise or not.  I didn't vote for this govt but I'm not sure what they can do about those who don't adhere to the rules.  Fines don't seem to be a deterrent.   Certainly don't have the resources to lock them up.
		
Click to expand...

I think the Government (who I didn’t vote for either) have got more right than wrong, done some great things.
But the biggest issue was not clamping down and being tough enough initially.

Look at the fines that were overturned, the politicians/government employees (regardless of affiliation) that broke/bent the rules etc and up to date were there are differences within the Tiers.

If we know on here you’ll always get idiots, them maybe this was time to make an example of them.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			And I thought you were in the know. Remind me who the body are that recommended on the priorities for vaccination as to numbers of vaccines, they have been ordered and payed for, I presume the production is the responsibility of the company, can’t remember seeing a production line in the HOC.

PS feel free to get personal, i*t shows were your true prejudices lie, like your posts, mine are based on an opinion.*

Click to expand...


interesting to see in your world, you have opinions, but those who disagree with you have prejudices


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## road2ruin (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			But the biggest issue was not clamping down and being tough enough initially.

Look at the fines that were overturned, the politicians/government employees (regardless of affiliation) that broke/bent the rules etc and up to date were there are differences within the Tiers.

If we know on here you’ll always get idiots, them maybe this was time to make an example of them.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this, at the outset there were plenty of those who should have known better who breached all the laws/guidelines and there were excuses given (which appeared to be accepted) and no further action taken. This immediately gave those who felt they needed one an excuse to flout the rules themselves. Yes, you can trot out the whole "if they jumped off a cliff would you" however the point is that these are the people behind the rules. They should have had a strong example made of them at the outset and whilst that might not have deterred the most ardent rule breaker it would probably have made others think twice. Even recently you have the Scottish MP travelling on the train whilst knowingly having tested positive and she is still in a job. What sort of message does this send out? Make an example early on, keep it consistent for all rule breakers so you don't get this dual standards type scenario and I think it would have been easier to keep an element of control.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

Scotland going into full lockdown from tomorrow.
First Ministers said if we stayed in existing tiers the NHS would be overwhelmed in 3/4 weeks.

Looks like they are scared of a fairly obvious Christmas mixing boost.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The Govt determined how many and which to order. If you think bodies like the JCVI are independent, you need to waken up. Anticipating production problems and having contingencies is a basic first day role for a junior project manager.

And if you didn't notice, you are getting personal too.
		
Click to expand...

I’ll leave that here for you to amend and delete any reference to independent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Committee_on_Vaccination_and_Immunisation


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## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

Interesting to hear what it will entail. Hopefully golf still makes the cut. 

I do just hope they have super strict enforcement.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			interesting to see in your world, you have opinions, but those who disagree with you have prejudices 

Click to expand...

He’s prejudice are personal nothing to do with opinions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2021)

So Scotland going into lockdown - when will England and Wales join - surely it’s time now for a couple of weeks to have the same circuit breaker we had in December


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			He’s prejudice are personal nothing to do with opinions.
		
Click to expand...

you've lost me now ...


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So Scotland going into lockdown - when will England and Wales join - surely it’s time now for a couple of weeks to have the same circuit breaker we had in December
		
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Perfer it to be much stricter with no unnecessary travel after 1900 hrs to make it easier to identify those breaking the old party rules.


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## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So Scotland going into lockdown - when will England and Wales join - surely it’s time now for a couple of weeks to have the same circuit breaker we had in December
		
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Wales' Circuit breaker didn't work. Enforcement needs to change, It's madness just repeating the same thing and expecting different results, especially with this new strain.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			you've lost me now ...
		
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Don’t worry about it, I get like that sometimes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

Scots Schools closed until 1st Feb.
Guessed that one as extended learning pods already set up.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

Kaz said:



			New lockdown in Scotland from tonight.

Hard to hear but totally necessary
		
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It will be interesting to see what "legally enforceable" actually means.

Lots of non-essential places currently open for takeaway or click and collect, from coffee shops to American Golf. Surely she needs to start making sure these are shut.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Wales' Circuit breaker didn't work. Enforcement needs to change, It's madness just repeating the same thing and expecting different results, especially with this new strain.
		
Click to expand...

Then it would have to be the same as what we had in March - full lockdown , one hour outdoor exercise only , only essential show open - everything else shut down


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## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Then it would have to be the same as what we had in March - full lockdown , *one hour outdoor exercise only* , only essential show open - everything else shut down
		
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Don't start this again! 

I do agree, I'd take 8 weeks of this for a more relaxed spring and summer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Perfer it to be much stricter with no unnecessary travel after 1900 hrs to make it easier to identify those breaking the old party rules.
		
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I’d push for a curfew as well, 2000hrs to 0600hr Sun-Thurs and a total lockdown at weekends. Allow 1hr per day for exercise/looking after pets etc, for a 3-4 week period.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2021)

If lockdown is just more tier 4 then we are largely there already aren't we? Many areas have been in this since early October, NE England certainly has, others from before then, Leicester, Oldham etc. Has not the central belt of Scotland not also been in effective lockdown for some time?

It sounds dramatic but it is largely more of the same unless they add extra bits on.

I'm taking my daughter back to university on Friday. What would normally be a nice easy journey, stop for a bite to eat when there, will now just be a straight drive, drop off, come back. She will be glad to go back though. Back to being able to mix with friends again, 9 people in her corridor bubble. The university have arranged for tests upon their return, much better set up than back in September when students arrivbed first time around.


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## Beezerk (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If lockdown is just more tier 4 then we are largely there already aren't we? Many areas have been in this since early October, NE England certainly has, others from before then, Leicester, Oldham etc. Has not the central belt of Scotland not also been in effective lockdown for some time?

It sounds dramatic but it is largely more of the same unless they add extra bits on.
		
Click to expand...

I've just spoken to our Scottish engineer,  he basically said it's just the same as it is now (if you're in tier 4) just maybe a more hardline message. He still has to go to work and travel around Scotland as normal as we cannot do our jobs from home.
Does sort of make you wonder what the whole point of this new "lockdown" is.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d push for a curfew as well, 2000hrs to 0600hr Sun-Thurs and a total lockdown at weekends. Allow 1hr per day for exercise/looking after pets etc, for a 3-4 week period.
		
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The only problem is that there will be the normal excuses especially for us in Devon & Cornwall as strangely the last figures show we are going down in infection numbers for now.


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## road2ruin (Jan 4, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Bit early to know if golf will be allowed but certainly down to two balls now.
		
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As much as it pains me to say I think that all sports will have to close if they're going to call this a 'proper' lockdown. You can't have everyone having more restrictions whilst people who happen to play golf/tennis are still allowed to enjoy their hobby. I appreciate the argument of it being the perfect sport of social distancing, with my own golf I barely see my playing partners once we've left the tee box however I'd imagine it's just easier to blanket ban everything.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If lockdown is just more tier 4 then we are largely there already aren't we? Many areas have been in this since early October, NE England certainly has, others from before then, Leicester, Oldham etc. Has not the central belt of Scotland not also been in effective lockdown for some time?

It sounds dramatic but it is largely more of the same unless they add extra bits on.
		
Click to expand...

With Tier 4 the only thing that appears to have changed is pubs and restaurants shutting but still allow takeaways , can only meet one other outside but it appears many are ignoring that - only have to see the amount of people going for visits to areas , golf clubs now have people hanging around car park drinking beer from a boot , and professional sport still going on 

So they can have the whole country in Tier 4 but it potentially isn’t working - so the next step is full lockdown


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2021)

Anyone else noticed that this thread has reached page 666...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I'm still adhering to the Govt's three syllable advice of Hands, Space, Face. Working for me so far.....
		
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Though I suggest that those such as yourself (and I am one of those) have to remain careful and vigilant - and we must not become in any way complacent.

Because though I might not have become unwell in any way due to Covid-19 - do I _know _that I have not contracted the virus?  Unless tested then no I don't.  Without knowing it I might well have contracted the virus - and indeed may well have passed it on to another even though I have lived diligently within the constraints set down on how I should act; where I can go, and who I can be in the same enclosed space (e.g. supermarket) with.  

That I may so far have been fortunate in avoiding the virus there are many acting and behaving just as I who have not.  And they are not at fault.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			With Tier 4 the only thing that appears to have changed is pubs and restaurants shutting but still allow takeaways , can only meet one other outside but it appears many are ignoring that - only have to see the amount of people going for visits to areas , golf clubs now have people hanging around car park drinking beer from a boot , and professional sport still going on

So they can have the whole country in Tier 4 but it potentially isn’t working - so the next step is full lockdown
		
Click to expand...

I'm trying to remember what are the differences between tier 4 and the lockdown from March? It doesn't feel much different as far as I can tell, other than golf courses are open, if they are not shut from being waterlogged of course.


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## SatchFan (Jan 4, 2021)

I'm already starting to look forward to more Joe Wicks exercise videos and Jamie Oliver's 50 things you can do with a tin of chick peas.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 4, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Anyone else noticed that this thread has reached page 666...

Click to expand...

Beat me to it you old devil lol


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2021)

I am not sure how far tier 4 actually is from a full lockdown. Takeaways were allowed, even in March, all retail etc shut bar essentials again, same as in March. Only meeting one other person outside, same as before. The only additional restrictions that I can see when comparing Tier 4 to a full lockdown is:

1. Click and Collect. But then again, stores were offering temporary delivery services to really not that different.
2. The limit to an hour of outdoor exercise. 
3.Closed golf courses and other socially distanced outdoor sport. 
3. Schools and universities being open (OK That is a big one). 

Really not that big a difference to me than where i am in Tier 4 now.


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## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I am not sure how far tier 4 actually is from a full lockdown. Takeaways were allowed, even in March, all retail etc shut bar essentials again, same as in March. Only meeting one other person outside, same as before. The only additional restrictions that I can see when comparing Tier 4 to a full lockdown is:

1. Click and Collect. But then again, stores were offering temporary delivery services to really not that different.
*2. The limit to an hour of outdoor exercise.*
3.Closed golf courses and other socially distanced outdoor sport.
3. Schools and universities being open (OK That is a big one).

Really not that big a difference to me than where i am in Tier 4 now.
		
Click to expand...

Again, Didn't exist. Study Here

Did golf clubs open up near the end of LD v1? I remember there was a stretch where you could play with your household/alone. But can't remember when it was? All I remember is that I was in shorts!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm trying to remember what are the differences between tier 4 and the lockdown from March? It doesn't feel much different as far as I can tell, other than golf courses are open, if they are not shut from being waterlogged of course.
		
Click to expand...

Schools and Nurseries were shut

All shops were shut bar essential ( many other shops are still open )

All sport was stopped , all golf courses closed

Only allowed outside for exercise short period of time or going to a shop for food



DanFST said:



			Again, Didn't exist. Study Here

Did golf clubs open up near the end of LD v1? I remember there was a stretch where you could play with your household/alone. But can't remember when it was? All I remember is that I was in shorts!
		
Click to expand...

The initial message was an hour 

And golf courses opened back up 2/3 week in May


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2021)

If the golf course is open and Tesco is open then another lockdown will have no more effect on me as those are the only 2 places I've been for the last 2 weeks.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			With Tier 4 the only thing that appears to have changed is pubs and restaurants shutting but still allow takeaways , can only meet one other outside but it appears many are ignoring that - only have to see the amount of people going for visits to areas , golf clubs now have people hanging around car park drinking beer from a boot , and professional sport still going on

So they can have the whole country in Tier 4 but it potentially isn’t working - so the next step is full lockdown
		
Click to expand...

...and the apolitical question is - who decides...?  I suppose that it could be SAGE and such as Prof. Stephen Powis - but I doubt it...

For some whatever decision is made will be right - but for others it will be wrong.  So who do we thank or criticise for making a decision that could/would affect each and every one of us in how we live our daily life?  It's difficult decision...I'd close. 3week lockdown.


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Again, Didn't exist. Study Here

Did golf clubs open up near the end of LD v1? I remember there was a stretch where you could play with your household/alone. But can't remember when it was? All I remember is that I was in shorts!
		
Click to expand...

I am sure that the 1 hour of exercise outdoors existed in lockdown 1 (maybe that was all I could be bothered to walk for). I know golf clubs shut for quite a bit at the beginning of lockdown as I had to listen to my mum chelping on about it on the phone every day.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Again, Didn't exist. Study Here

Did golf clubs open up near the end of LD v1? I remember there was a stretch where you could play with your household/alone. But can't remember when it was? All I remember is that I was in shorts!
		
Click to expand...

I think it came from a TV interview where one of the Tory's was asked and he went erm about an hour 

It was never put in writing 

Hancock said it was fine to drive for exercise on TV but then people got canned for it


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			With Tier 4 the only thing that appears to have changed is pubs and restaurants shutting but still allow takeaways , can only meet one other outside but it appears many are ignoring that - only have to see the amount of people going for visits to areas , golf clubs now have people hanging around car park drinking beer from a boot , and professional sport still going on

So they can have the whole country in Tier 4 but it potentially isn’t working - so the next step is full lockdown
		
Click to expand...

I am sure that takeaways were allowed under lockdown 1 and that pubs were encouraged to offer this service as a way of maintaining some revenue. My local did this.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Boris to chat to the country 2000 hrs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Seems like my MP (J Hunt) is for closing schools and stopping all household mixing - and the PM is doing a Broadcast to the Nation this evening at 8pm


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

Jeremy Hunt

@Jeremy_Hunt
·
2h

Time to act: thread on why we need to close schools, borders, and ban all household mixing RIGHT AWAY.

We therefore cannot afford to wait: all schools should be closed, international travel stopped, household mixing limited and the tier system reviewed so that the highest tier really does bring down infection levels (as with the first lockdown).


https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt

Have to say, I totally agree with him.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and the apolitical question is - who decides...?  I suppose that it could be SAGE and such as Prof. Stephen Powis - but I doubt it...

For some whatever decision is made will be right - but for others it will be wrong.  So who do we thank or criticise for making a decision that could/would affect each and every one of us in how we live our daily life?  It's difficult decision...I'd close. 3week lockdown.
		
Click to expand...

As with everything else - the government decides and we the population abide by those decisions- there is no need to “thank” or “criticise” - just follow the guidelines


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## SatchFan (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I suggest that those such as yourself (and I am one of those) have to remain careful and vigilant - and we must not become in any way complacent.

Because though I might not have become unwell in any way due to Covid-19 - do I _know _that I have not contracted the virus?  Unless tested then no I don't.  Without knowing it I might well have contracted the virus - and indeed may well have passed it on to another even though I have lived diligently within the constraints set down on how I should act; where I can go, and who I can be in the same enclosed space (e.g. supermarket) with. 

That I may so far have been fortunate in avoiding the virus there are many acting and behaving just as I who have not.  And they are not at fault.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with what you say, SILH. My wife and I have adhered strictly to the guidelines from the outset and this new variant has made us even more cautious. We are luckier than many in that we have a comfortable lifestyle but don't want to take any chances catching Covid both for our own health but also not to be an unnecessary burden on the NHS. Good luck in your attempts to keep clear.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I’ll leave that here for you to amend and delete any reference to independent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Committee_on_Vaccination_and_Immunisation

Click to expand...

I know they are said to be independent,  I am saying they really aren't independent of Government. You would have to be rather gullible to think they are. And they don't do the vaccine purchasing recommendations either. Go back to wikipedia and see if you can find out who does.

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea (aka North Korea) isn't democratic either.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The only problem is that there will be the normal excuses especially for us in Devon & Cornwall as strangely the last figures show we are going down in infection numbers for now.
		
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Genuinely don’t think numbers in different areas matter anymore, we need to look at it as one tier, we’ve tried different rules for different places and it hasn’t worked.

Everyone treated the same, less to be confused/make excuses.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Have just seen the guidance. Golf will still be permitted...
		
Click to expand...

New guidance?  What PM is going to announce this evening?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Genuinely don’t think numbers in different areas matter anymore, we need to look at it as one tier, we’ve tried different rules for different places and it hasn’t worked.

Everyone treated the same, less to be confused/make excuses.
		
Click to expand...

I'm hoping for a proper lockdown

Roads were packed at 06:30 on way home from work 

Didn't realise we had that Many essienal workers


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			New guidance?  What PM is going to announce this evening?
		
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shhhhhh. Don't ruin it


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2021)

Wonder if a new national lockdown in a similar form to March would include shutting down professional sport again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Just checked our rolling 7-day rate to 29/12 - where we are - Waverley District is 514/100k - just 4miles up the road Rushmoor District is 981...worrying...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Kaz said:



			In Scotland
		
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Ah the FM...


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Anyone else noticed that this thread has reached page 666...

Click to expand...

Ah, but is that the correct number.
The Number of the Beast is now thought to be 616, not 666, whatever Iron Maiden may say on the matter.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I totally get that, but the figures at the moment are the fall out of having a lovely Christmas dinner together. Which has passed the virus onto others onto others etc etc. How long do we persist with a mixed message lockdown. As in some schools are closed in tier 4 other tier fours not. 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Christmas get togethers were not compulsory, if anyone decided to have a Beano with a number of people outside their household then it's their own fault if they contracted Covid.   The original five day allowance was reckless in my opinion and a mistake by the Government (See how I did that Ethan 🙂) but again it wasn't compulsory, we never met up with others and anyone in their right mind should have thought very hard about it.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Now now, stop digging your making yourself look silly with your childish reply’s.
		
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You beat me to it, old chap. Turn on the spellchecker on your computer, by the way.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Christmas get togethers were not compulsory, if anyone decided to have a Beano with a number of people outside their household then it's their own fault if they contracted Covid.   The original five day allowance was reckless in my opinion and a mistake by the Government (See how I did that Ethan 🙂) but again it wasn't compulsory, we never met up with others and anyone in their right mind should have thought very hard about it.
		
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Fair point, the Christmas guidelines were not a target for people to brush up close to.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You beat me to it, old chap. Turn on the spellchecker on your computer, by the way.
		
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Not a hard race to win.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

Boris Johnson is reportedly set to put England into a full lockdown with schools closed for in person learning. He is due to make an announcement to the nation at 8pm this evening. ITV political editor Robert Peston tweeted: ‘PM will be directly addressing the nation. It won’t be a press conference. Tier 4 restrictions will be imposed everywhere. Schools closed. No more team games in parks. But outdoor exercise will still be allowed.’ The threat level from the virus is also set to be raised to the highest level of 5, the BBC reported. It means that there is a ‘material risk of healthcare services being overwhelmed’.


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2021/01/04/engl...TmygqqqmPIIZqOApFwv0zH2Eyj-3stuHI?ito=cbshare


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Christmas get togethers were not compulsory, if anyone decided to have a Beano with a number of people outside their household then it's their own fault if they contracted Covid.   The original five day allowance was reckless in my opinion and a mistake by the Government (See how I did that Ethan 🙂) but again it wasn't compulsory, we never met up with others and anyone in their right mind should have thought very hard about it.
		
Click to expand...

Your speaking to the converted, but as you mentioned the five day free for all that ended up being a 1 day ish free for all. Now has the undesired knock on effect. More so for those that had a quiet Christmas. 
looking forward to the ramblings of 8pm.

 Back on topic re how it has affected you. Today Ave 2 firsts.
1 ASDA home delivery for the first time.
2, Today is the first time Ave lost me taste. Had a bag of prawn cocktail and couldn’t taste a thing. Very weird indeed.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not a hard race to win.
		
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The race to look silly? Indeed not. You set a high standard, but you got there first with the toys thrown well out of the pram, please accept my warm congratulations.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Wonder if a new national lockdown in a similar form to March would include shutting down professional sport again.
		
Click to expand...

Not in Scotland


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I totally get that, but the figures at the moment are the fall out of having a lovely Christmas dinner together. Which has passed the virus onto others onto others etc etc. How long do we persist with a mixed message lockdown. As in some schools are closed in tier 4 other tier fours not. 🤔
		
Click to expand...

As you say it, I totally get that. Clarity is , or should be, the better option.
But, regarding the Xmas get together ( something folks could and should have cancelled for one year, surely?), could it be that the Gov thought that them issuing an outright ban would incite a total rebellion and more would have gone ahead than what happened?  An appeal for responsible action may have been considered to get a better response.
The advice round the Cabinet table from such as Police Commissioner may have been that a ban would be impossible to enforce and serious disorder etc may have  resulted if the Police were to try to enforce it.
(Your daughter can tell you that whilst the police can turn a blind eye to something they see ( discretion), it becomes a different ball game when someone reports a breach of the law and insists the police do something about it.)
Imagine the Police having to break up /disrupt a family's Xmas lunch. .

These decisions are not easy....not easy at all.


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## woofers (Jan 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Wonder if a new national lockdown in a similar form to March would include shutting down professional sport again.
		
Click to expand...

It would send a strong message that this is a serious situation we are in.
All but essential needs should be shutdown.
I have no interest in football, but seeing the newspaper headlines / reports, it seems that the Premier League runs in its own world where rules and guidelines are broken, followed by an apology.
Shutting down the countries most popular sport might just get some to realise that Covid is no joke.
Same as a few hundred people travelling to golf courses, to play 9 or 18 holes in wet, cold conditions hardly qualifies as essential.


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## CliveW (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			New guidance?  What PM is going to announce this evening?
		
Click to expand...

Scottish Golf guidance...

As we turn the corner on an extremely difficult 2020, starting 2021 with additional restrictions and further uncertainty is not how anyone wanted to begin the new year.

Following today’s announcement from the First Minister and with an understanding that our affiliated clubs will need to make some adjustments to their business operations, we wanted to provide all clubs with the information we have available to us at present.

As has been the case throughout the pandemic, we have worked alongside both sportscotland and The Scottish Government to demonstrate that golf is a sport that can be played outdoors with physical distancing and increased safety measures in place. We are pleased that this continues to be recognised and from 00.01 on Tuesday 5th January: 

Golf courses can remain open for play with a maximum of two players from up to two households 
Golfers must stay close to home, travel only for essential purposes and in line with the new legislation 
We are continuing to seek further clarification on a number of the wider aspects for sport from our partners at sportscotland and Scottish Government and as soon as we have sufficient detail with which to work, our more detailed guidance will be updated. We currently envisage being in a position to provide a more in-depth update for all affiliated clubs within the next 24 hours.

Scottish Golf asks that all golf clubs and golfers adhere to the new guidance with the same spirit and integrity that has been shown throughout the last year to ensure we can all continue to benefit from playing golf through this new period of restrictions.

You can stay up to date on all the latest information on our dedicated COVID-19 page *here.*

Kind Regards,
Karin Sharp, Chief Operating Officer, Scottish Golf


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I'm still adhering to the Govt's three syllable advice of Hands, Space, Face. Working for me so far.....
		
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I should add stay out of indoors situations except your own, where possible.
Indoors,  SD isn't much help. This is why we are where we are now.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The race to look silly? Indeed not. You set a high standard, but you got there first with the toys thrown well out of the pram, please accept my warm congratulations.
		
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And there was me thinking it was you throwing the insults but as you have history for it every time you are proven wrong hardly surprising.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2021)

Unfortunately I think a lockdown won't have the effect that it did in March.  Alot of people have just had enough.  Even the die hard "rule obeying" people I know have made questionable decisions recently.

I think enforcement is also a problem.  I attended a large fire a few days ago.  Two police officers where on the barrier tape stopping people coming through.  As I looked over I obseved a copper talking and laughing with a crowd of maybe 30 people all stood shoulder to shoulder trying to see what was going on.


----------



## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

Children, enough.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

woofers said:



			It would send a strong message that this is a serious situation we are in.
All but essential needs should be shutdown.
I have no interest in football, but seeing the newspaper headlines / reports, it seems that the Premier League runs in its own world where rules and guidelines are broken, followed by an apology.
Shutting down the countries most popular sport might just get some to realise that Covid is no joke.
Same as a few hundred people travelling to golf courses, to play 9 or 18 holes in wet, cold conditions hardly qualifies as essential.
		
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Much as I'm enjoying playing , a golf lockdown wouldnt be a bad idea


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## AliMc (Jan 4, 2021)

Scottish golf courses being allowed to remain open under new restrictions from tomorrow, play only in 1 or 2 balls, 'local' travel only, 10 miles for me, probably about 8 if I go across the fields in my awd xc60 !


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Much as I'm enjoying playing , a golf lockdown wouldnt be a bad idea
		
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Why. What would it achieve


----------



## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

hovis said:



			Why. What would it achieve
		
Click to expand...

Sends a message to not go out unless it's vital

Much as I loving it not sure it's vital


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Scottish golf courses being allowed to remain open under new restrictions from tomorrow, play only in 1 or 2 balls, 'local' travel only, 10 miles for me, probably about 8 if I go across the fields in my awd xc60 !
		
Click to expand...

i think it says within  your local council area... ??


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## woofers (Jan 4, 2021)

hovis said:



			Why. What would it achieve
		
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Well, it would mean that all those people travelling to take up “rammed” tee times are no longer travelling. They may be staying at home. And if they stay at home, it’s pretty much guaranteed that they aren’t culpable in spreading the virus.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			And there was me thinking it was you throwing the insults but as you have history for it every time you are proven wrong hardly surprising.
		
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Yawn. You haven't proven me wrong, but go on, have another go. I might reply, or I might not.


----------



## hovis (Jan 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sends a message to not go out unless it's vital

Much as I loving it not sure it's vital
		
Click to expand...

Sends a message to who? Golfers playing golf isn't an issue.  The average riff raff isn't going to stay at home because Stan and John can't play golf.  The problem is the people that are outright breaking the rules.  Well, my opinion that is.    
Working a long side the police I have been left jaw dropped by the stories they're coming back with


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

hovis said:



			Sends a message to who? Golfers playing golf isn't an issue.  The average riff raff isn't going to stay at home because Stan and John can't play golf.  The problem is the people that are outright breaking the rules.  Well, my opinion that is.    
Working a long side the police I have been left jaw dropped by the stories they're coming back with
		
Click to expand...

.you would be surprised

People I speak with can't believe I'm allowed to play


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yawn. You haven't proven me wrong, but go on, have another go. I might reply, or I might not.
		
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No point you ignore facts as your to busy with your own self importance. Time to call your little spat endex


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			New guidance?  What PM is going to announce this evening?
		
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Yes, I thought that?


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## woofers (Jan 4, 2021)

I know accidents can happen at any time, but if people stayed at home there is a lesser risk of these happening and taking up NHS resources surely?
I can give 2 examples - one of my golfing pals, slipped on the golf course walking down a slope off a green, serious knee damage, required an operation.
A great grandmother was taken by her granddaughter to see her grandchild. Whilst there, she fell and was hospitalised. In Tier 4, all those involved weren’t following the rules and believed “it wouldn’t happen to them”.


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## AliMc (Jan 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			i think it says within  your local council area... ??
		
Click to expand...

Even better then as both home and course are in East Lothian


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan/ Old Skier, time to stop now please.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2021)

woofers said:



			I know accidents can happen at any time, but if people stayed at home there is a lesser risk of these happening and taking up NHS resources surely?
I can give 2 examples - one of my golfing pals, slipped on the golf course walking down a slope off a green, serious knee damage, required an operation.
A great grandmother was taken by her granddaughter to see her grandchild. Whilst there, she fell and was hospitalised. In Tier 4, all those involved weren’t following the rules and believed “it wouldn’t happen to them”.
		
Click to expand...

In that case you shouldn't stand on a chair to change a light bulb, hold onto the banister when walking down the stairs...... You get the gist.


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## chellie (Jan 4, 2021)

Coastal area in Tier 4 here. Lots of moans (me included) about the large amount of people travelling here for the day.

I however did not travel miles inland to go and play in the snow this weekend unlike lots of people from here. They fail to see they are doing what they are moaning about others doing


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Even better then as both home and course are in East Lothian
		
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me too Highland council covers almost 10,000 Sq miles


----------



## chellie (Jan 4, 2021)

woofers said:



			I know accidents can happen at any time, but if people stayed at home there is a lesser risk of these happening and taking up NHS resources surely?
I can give 2 examples - one of my golfing pals, *slipped on the golf course walking down a slope off a green*, serious knee damage, required an operation.
A great grandmother was taken by her granddaughter to see her grandchild. Whilst there, she fell and was hospitalised. *In Tier 4*, *all those involved weren’t following the rules *and believed “it wouldn’t happen to them”.
		
Click to expand...

We can still golf in Tier 4 though


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## woofers (Jan 4, 2021)

hovis said:



			In that case you shouldn't stand on a chair to change a light bulb, hold onto the banister when walking down the stairs...... You get the gist.
		
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Changing the light bulb might be essential.....😄
Especially if it stops you tripping over in the dark.


----------



## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			Coastal area in Tier 4 here. Lots of moans (me included) about the large amount of people travelling here for the day.

I however did not travel miles inland to go and play in the snow this weekend unlike lots of people from here. They fail to see they are doing what they are moaning about others doing

Click to expand...

we had a couple of coach loads of Chinese tourists visiting Loch Ness according to the local paper last week!!!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			We can still golf in Tier 4 though

Click to expand...

I suspect that at 8pm, tiers will be kicked into touch.😉


----------



## CliveW (Jan 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			i think it says within  your local council area... ??
		
Click to expand...

According to Scottish Gov website, travel for exercise is still within your Local Authority area or up to 5 miles beyond.


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## chellie (Jan 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			we had a couple of coach loads of Chinese tourists visiting Loch Ness according to the local paper last week!!!
		
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OMG


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## woofers (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			We can still golf in Tier 4 though

Click to expand...

That right, but just because you can, doesn’t mean you should / have to.


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## chellie (Jan 4, 2021)

woofers said:



			That right, but just because you can, doesn’t mean you should / have to.
		
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You said they weren't following the rules though. There is no rule saying you can't play golf.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			If you want proof of what I’m saying, just take a look at the* ”likes”* and try and work out the political beliefs of those posting the said ”like”.
		
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Not really a 'toe in the water' in deciding political allegiances. Many 'Likes' are more a 'Et tu Brute' by a poster who has previously disagreed with someone 🙂


----------



## hovis (Jan 4, 2021)

woofers said:



			Changing the light bulb might be essential.....😄
Especially if it stops you tripping over in the dark.
		
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You actually have a good point there 😂


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			OMG

Click to expand...

don't get me started on the dozen or so camper vans in the local swimming pool car park

the few always spoil it for the rest


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## woofers (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			You said they weren't following the rules though. There is no rule saying you can't play golf.
		
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OK, sorry, didn’t write that very clearly, it was the grandmother / daughter / child that I meant to refer to.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

Moving house is another example 

Over road is up for rent now I think or maybe for sale again 

Anyways all day people in and out. No gap between visits


----------



## SteveJay (Jan 4, 2021)

Whilst most on here seem to have the common sense to set their own restrictions, lower or well within the permitted guidelines,I do think the guidelines/restrictions/rules etc need to be absolutely clear and unambiguous and set at the appropriate level.

I see no benefit in the farcical situation, as was the case at Christmas, in setting out guidelines, permitting (limited) household mixing, but then stressing that people should ideally not mix. Don't rely on people to exercise such discretion. The general public, or at least a significant element, will read the guidance and say OK, that's permitted, we can do that. Quite a few on here have said that they will stop playing golf in the forthcoming "lockdown", but we all know that many golfers will see that it is permitted and carry on as the guidelines allow it (assuming they do).


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2021)

CliveW said:



			According to Scottish Gov website, travel for exercise is still within your Local Authority area or up to 5 miles beyond.
		
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Everone else is doing it, stop discrimination now I say


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2021)

I agree... we've tried "be sensible."   Clearly that is too much for some.  If you look at the peak spots in Wales, they are all where you'd guess they'd be!    (Very social folk's areas who enjoy night out!)

Golf is a funny one.  It is outdoors, can be done in very small groups where keeping your distance is easy.  On the other hand, "no golf" takes cars off the road and removes the chance of anything. (however small)

AND, it is January, the weather is crap anyway, (down here) so lets be good citizens and have the month off!  Give the courses a rest so that they will be better, more quickly, come the Spring!   
Ps - Dear Mr Drakeford, the Royal Porthcawl Winter Open is 23rd Feb and we don't want to miss that "pretty please!"


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Bit early to know if golf will be allowed but certainly down to two balls now.
		
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I don't know about you Karen but my Daughter loved those 2.5 hour rounds in a two ball earlier this year.
She said to me that she now knew what I was talking about when I was describing my 1950's to 1970's golf


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			me too Highland council covers almost 10,000 Sq miles

Click to expand...

Yea but they only have 10 golf courses.


----------



## Tiger man (Jan 4, 2021)

IanM said:



			I agree... we've tried "be sensible."   Clearly that is too much for some.  If you look at the peak spots in Wales, they are all where you'd guess they'd be!    (Very social folk's areas who enjoy night out!)

Golf is a funny one.  It is outdoors, can be done in very small groups where keeping your distance is easy.  On the other hand, "no golf" takes cars off the road and removes the chance of anything. (however small)

AND, it is January, the weather is crap anyway, (down here) so lets be good citizens and have the month off!  Give the courses a rest so that they will be better, more quickly, come the Spring!  
Ps - Dear Mr Drakeford, the Royal Porthcawl Winter Open is 23rd Feb and we don't want to miss that "pretty please!" 

Click to expand...

Totally agree now is the perfect time to have a month or 2 off from golf, help the course and save lives. It's out of control and full lockdown seems the only answer.


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## road2ruin (Jan 4, 2021)

IanM said:



			AND, it is January, the weather is crap anyway, (down here) so lets be good citizens and have the month off!  Give the courses a rest so that they will be better, more quickly, come the Spring!
		
Click to expand...

Agree, the hardest think about lockdown 1.0 in some ways was the weather, it was amazing but we couldn't golf. That said the best thing about lockdown 1.0 was the weather so at least I was able to get out and walk with the dog rather than being sat inside watching it pour down. That's the problem I am finding now, it's the cabin fever side of things which is only likely to get worse with the tightening of restrictions.


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree, the hardest think about lockdown 1.0 in some ways was the weather, it was amazing but we couldn't golf. That said the best thing about lockdown 1.0 was the weather so at least I was able to get out and walk with the dog rather than being sat inside watching it pour down. That's the problem I am finding now, it's the cabin fever side of things which is only likely to get worse with the tightening of restrictions.
		
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I can certainly identify with that... if I wasn't walking the dogs, I would be going out very much at the mo!


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## Billysboots (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My son is doing jury duty in Newcastle tomorrow. It will be interesting to hear how they manage it all. The courts in Newcastle are pretty new but even so they are not designed for this, where is to be fair?
		
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Our local Courts have been extremely well run. I would hope the guidance they adhere to is national - I suppose the only issue will be how that guidance has been interpreted and implemented. I’m sure all will be fine.


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## Pants (Jan 4, 2021)

Be it England, Norway, The US or Outer Mongolia...
Be it 1664, 1918, 2020 or 2021...
One thing is clear...
People never change.


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## road2ruin (Jan 4, 2021)

IanM said:



			I can certainly identify with that... if I wasn't walking the dogs, I would be going out very much at the mo!
		
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I’m quite lucky in that we moved in November and I’m now able to walk out the door and have miles of green areas without getting in the car. The dog won’t know what’s hit him.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You beat me to it, old chap. Turn on the spellchecker on your computer, by the way.
		
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## road2ruin (Jan 4, 2021)

I know this is political however given I highlighted her earlier with regards rule breaking....

*COVID-19: MP Margaret Ferrier arrested and charged over 'reckless conduct' after alleged coronavirus rule breach*


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## Captainron (Jan 4, 2021)

I think the vaccines should be given to the NHS staff and teachers first.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I think the vaccines should be given to the NHS staff and teachers first.
		
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Round here the NHS staff were paid to take them as part of the human trails to get it signed off and them done all at once


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## spongebob59 (Jan 4, 2021)

My missus works for Pfizer and they're quite miffed that the plan is to extend the Times between doses as they have no data to support that 🤔


----------



## upsidedown (Jan 4, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I think the vaccines should be given to the NHS staff and teachers first.
		
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The good lady is a vaccinator and can confirm NHS staff is all she is doing


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

Supermarket staff are at more risk than Teachers.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree, the hardest think about lockdown 1.0 in some ways was the weather, it was amazing but we couldn't golf. That said the best thing about lockdown 1.0 was the weather so at least I was able to get out and walk with the dog rather than being sat inside watching it pour down. That's the problem I am finding now, it's the cabin fever side of things which is only likely to get worse with the tightening of restrictions.
		
Click to expand...

Me when Ave done me lockdown, ( Thursday at midnight) Friday am avin a walk. I don’t care where to, am avin a social distance leg stretch. Then Friday night we have the sproggs. That’s if I don’t have a temperature. They can then open there Christmas pressies 2 weeks late 😁
gutted I cleaned me clubs a couple of days before I got Corona.They are the cleanest they have been in months and Ave not looked them since the 24th.


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 4, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



View attachment 34300

Click to expand...

Just wonder whether anybody has ever said that about Tashy’s posts? Alternatively at times we could ask somebody to decipher mi  duck!


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Just wonder whether anybody has ever said that about Tashy’s posts? Alternatively at times we could ask somebody to decipher mi  duck!
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂
A term of affection mi duck.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			The good lady is a vaccinator and can confirm NHS staff is all she is doing
		
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does she do jobs on the side, Ave a box of Dunlop 65s I could tempt her with 🤔😉


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## chellie (Jan 4, 2021)

For tonight


----------



## 3offTheTee (Jan 4, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			😂😂😂
A term of affection mi duck.
		
Click to expand...

I know. I worked in The Potteries a few years’ ago. Great win for your lads yesterday. Chelsea were rammel! Hope you are keeping well.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			My missus works for Pfizer and they're quite miffed that the plan is to extend the Times between doses as they have no data to support that 🤔
		
Click to expand...

There is no data to support it, but I think it will be just fine. Pfizer was never ever going to say anything else other than their data only supported the dosing schedule used in the clinical trials. 

However, that 3 week interval was chosen based on earlier assumptions about the need for a booster to increase a modest initial response but those assumptions have been comfortably exceeded. If you get infected in the wild, you don't get a booster 3 weeks later but you develop an immune response for at least some months. In the AZ approval, the MHRA noted that there is some evidence to suggest that a longer interval provided better immunity, and after a couple of weeks the process that is taking place is the same regardless of the type of vaccine, so it seems reasonable to assume at least that there is no harm to an extended interval.

The other thing is that we are not vaccinating for individual benefit, we are vaccinating for population benefit, and giving more people vaccines maximises the population benefit. I don't agree with the Govt on much, but I agree with this.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jan 4, 2021)

No Covid beds again. Grim first day back but on the plus side I've got the Pfizer vaccination on Wednesday at 9.40


----------



## Crow (Jan 4, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Me when Ave done me lockdown, ( Thursday at midnight) Friday am avin a walk. I don’t care where to, am avin a social distance leg stretch. Then Friday night we have the sproggs. That’s if I don’t have a temperature. They can then open there Christmas pressies 2 weeks late 😁
gutted I cleaned me clubs a couple of days before I got Corona.They are the cleanest they have been in months and Ave not looked them since the 24th.
		
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Purely out of interest (I'm nothing to do with the grammar police), how do you decide when  to use "ave" and when to use "have"?


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			I know. I worked in The Potteries a few years’ ago. Great win for your lads yesterday. Chelsea were rammel! Hope you are keeping well.
		
Click to expand...

trying to behave, but flippin eck having this Covid is odd. Nigh on no energy. Every day is Groundhog Day. This virus is so flippin strange. How can It kill people yet others have no symptoms. Loss of taste 😳 Ave just had a snowball tunnocks.It might as well of been polystyrene. 
aches on joints for no reason. High light of me day, Doing the fire.
Re City, Ave lost all interest in Football. Going to games and having VAR just killed the enjoyment. Re yesterday’s game, On any other day I would of been screaming at the box when 3-0. I just could not be bothered. I would sooner have an Eccles cake. Well if I could taste it. Flippin eck, Ave not even looked at holidays yet. This is odd times we live in.
stay safe 3OTT.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Moving house is another example

Over road is up for rent now I think or maybe for sale again

Anyways all day people in and out. No gap between visits
		
Click to expand...

Then the estate agent isn't following the guidelines. My parents are moving from where they live (around an hour away) to a bungalow just around the corner from me. While we were still in Tier 3 I had to go and check some things out in the property that they are buying as it was easier than them driving down and back. I had to arrange a time that would allow at least half an hour after the previous owner's son had left the property to allow all doors and windows to be left open and for them to wipe down everything. I then had to visit wearing a mask and gloves, with the obvious distancing from the estate agent while in the bungalow. The rules are pretty stringent for estate agents so it seems that your local one isn't sticking to them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			For tonight
		
Click to expand...

Pencil is ready in most parts of Scotland.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 4, 2021)

Crow said:



			Purely out of interest (I'm nothing to do with the grammar police), how do you decide when  to use "ave" and when to use "have"?
		
Click to expand...

Up ere we Dunna use the ‘H’ ah youth.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

Crow said:



			Purely out of interest (I'm nothing to do with the grammar police), how do you decide when  to use "ave" and when to use "have"?
		
Click to expand...

ave no idea. Joking aside. Nottinghamshire is an odd place for language. When we moved here in 1970 I was 7. Dozens of pit villages had a massive influx of miners from Derbyshire, geordies, Mackems, scousers, York’s,  Scots, welsh, Kent, lancs, Cumbria. Not forgetting  large communities of Polish from the Second World War ( bloody good workers). You needed an interpreter when playing. The language was a strange combination of me duck, och aye the noo, haway man, thees thaas and thous. Then there was the queens English from Kent. 
back then the only thing posh about a boy from Rochdale was using an indoor toilet . Happy days me man.


----------



## Reemul (Jan 4, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Supermarket staff are at more risk than Teachers.
		
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I love people that put this rubbish up, still it's not like there isn't a form book though. 

My wife is a teacher in Year 2, she has 30 pupils she spends all day with, no PPE allowed, they pick their noses, lick stuff, kiss each other and spontaneously do all sorts of weird shit, all without masks of any sort. These same pupils parents put plenty of pictures on facebook showing them all ignoring the rules. This new variant is shown to be more virulent apparently via kids. Now in a supermarket you hardly spend any time with anyone, queues at tills are minimal and 99% have masks on, if there was an issue with Supermarkets spreading it it really would have yet the rise once schools came back has been massive.

Add to this my son is in year 6 at another school and his bubble is with 60 kids and they do the same stuff and he comes home to mix with the wife and I, the amount of washing, cleaning and anti bac that goes on is immense, add in my wife is high risk due to Cavities in her lungs due to pneumonia and she is still going to work. Her school shut twice due to Covid and my son's had multiple cases, we keep our fingers crossed but you never know.

You need to go sit in the corner facing the wall wearing your hat...it's pointed and doesn't say Witch on it.


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## chrisd (Jan 4, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			ave no idea. Joking aside. Nottinghamshire is an odd place for language. When we moved here in 1970 I was 7. Dozens of pit villages had a massive influx of miners from Derbyshire, geordies, Mackems, scousers, York’s,  Scots, welsh, Kent, lancs, Cumbria. Not forgetting  large communities of Polish from the Second World War ( bloody good workers). You needed an interpreter when playing. The language was a strange combination of me duck, och aye the noo, haway man, thees thaas and thous. Then there was the queens English from Kent.
back then the only thing posh about a boy from Rochdale was using an indoor toilet . Happy days me man.
		
Click to expand...

When I moved out of Croydon to Kent and met MrsD she often used the words "mutton eye" which I finally realised was country bumpkin for "mustn't I" hardly the Queens English 🤣🤣


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

Do you have to be so rude.

Not my words, they came from someone who should know.


----------



## Kellfire (Jan 4, 2021)

“End of February half term”

Yikes.


----------



## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

Golf Shut!


----------



## rudebhoy (Jan 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Golf Shut!
		
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You sure?


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jan 4, 2021)

Sky News just said professional sport must stop.


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## road2ruin (Jan 4, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			“End of February half time”

Yikes.
		
Click to expand...

That would be amazing if true. My money is early March at the earliest.


----------



## need_my_wedge (Jan 4, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			You sure?
		
Click to expand...

Yep, announced on SKY news


----------



## Beedee (Jan 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Golf Shut!
		
Click to expand...

Yip, golf courses specifically listed in gov.uk document.  Must close.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2021)

So courses closed until mid feb then


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## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			You sure?
		
Click to expand...

"Outdoor sports venues, including tennis courts, golf courses and swimming pools, must close." From government docs.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d push for a curfew as well, 2000hrs to 0600hr Sun-Thurs and a total lockdown at weekends. Allow 1hr per day for exercise/looking after pets etc, for a 3-4 week period.
		
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defining the time about how long one can exercise is where it goes into the stupid. That is sanity time and they should not put limits - just that you need to observe distancing etc.


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## Beezerk (Jan 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Sky News just said professional sport must stop.
		
Click to expand...

How about hackers, are they exempt?


----------



## chellie (Jan 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			defining the time about how long one can exercise is where it goes into the stupid. That is sanity time and they should not put limits - just that you need to observe distancing etc.
		
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There were people cycling hundreds of miles though in a day for their exercise.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 4, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How about hackers, are they exempt?
		
Click to expand...

Sky News just given a correction. Professional sport allowed to continue.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Sky News just said professional sport must stop.
		
Click to expand...

They've just announced that they were incorrect, more news to follow.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			defining the time about how long one can exercise is where it goes into the stupid. That is sanity time and they should not put limits - just that you need to observe distancing etc.
		
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chellie said:



			There were people cycling hundreds of miles though in a day for their exercise.
		
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As above, unless someone is already training to a high standard, how much time is actually needed.

There needs to be a limit to stop the idiots just walking around all day spreading the virus.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			defining the time about how long one can exercise is where it goes into the stupid. That is sanity time and they should not put limits - just that you need to observe distancing etc.
		
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It makes no sense. As you say, it is really about the interactions with others. If you are careful with those, should be able to exercise indefinitely. I have absolutely no intention to do so, though.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 4, 2021)

Beedee said:



*Yip, golf courses specifically listed in gov.uk document.  Must close.*

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Unless you are in Scotland where they are allowed to remain open according to the announcement earlier.



CliveW said:



			Scottish Golf guidance...

As has been the case throughout the pandemic, we have worked alongside both sportscotland and The Scottish Government to demonstrate that golf is a sport that can be played outdoors with physical distancing and increased safety measures in place. We are pleased that this continues to be recognised and from 00.01 on Tuesday 5th January:

*Golf courses can remain open for play with a maximum of two players from up to two households*
Golfers must stay close to home, travel only for essential purposes and in line with the new legislation


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Perhaps someone could explain to me why there is such a difference in contracting or transmitting coronavirus on golf courses depending on which side of Hadrian's Wall you are, because I'm missing it.


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## fundy (Jan 4, 2021)

So im supposed to exercise once a day, not play sport even outdoors, stay at home whenever possible. Yet for some reason im allowed to actually move home. 

Confused how moving home isnt affected when almost everything else seems to be

To exchange contracts or not to exchange, that is the question lol


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2021)

fundy said:



			So im supposed to exercise once a day, not play sport even outdoors, stay at home whenever possible. Yet for some reason im allowed to actually move home.

Confused how moving home isnt affected when almost everything else seems to be

To exchange contracts or not to exchange, that is the question lol
		
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Wait until the guidance comes out from the SRA and other professional bodies over the next few days.


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## fundy (Jan 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Wait until the guidance comes out from the SRA and other professional bodies over the next few days.
		
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Yeah will do mate, just surprised to what is said in the gov.uk document. Will call you later in the week


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			we had a couple of coach loads of Chinese tourists visiting Loch Ness according to the local paper last week!!!
		
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I would genuinely be amazed if that was correct. Re-entry into China is very strict, isolation rigidly enforced upon return. Few Chinese are leaving their own provinces right now, never mind the country. I could well be wrong but I would not be surprised if this was a story started by rumour and wholly inaccurate.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			There were people cycling hundreds of miles though in a day for their exercise.
		
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good for them - keeping fit and sane - saves the NHS!


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			As above, unless someone is already training to a high standard, how much time is actually needed.

There needs to be a limit to stop the idiots just walking around all day spreading the virus.
		
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totally disagree. You want people to follow rules don't make them stupid. I have a few walks that can take an hour 10, 1h30, 2hrs etc - are they going to waste time trying to enforce something on people doing similar. Behave. Rules need to be simple as well as logical. Next we will be tagged when we lave the house and tazered if not back in an hour


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			totally disagree. You want people to follow rules don't make them stupid. I have a few walks that can take an hour 10, 1h30, 2hrs etc - are they going to waste time trying to enforce something on people doing similar. Behave. Rules need to be simple as well as logical. Next we will be tagged when we lave the house and tazered if not back in an hour
		
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If that is your normal routine then good, but let’s be honest, thousands suddenly turned into professionals. As for policing it, they shouldn’t have to, people should be able to follow the rules, apart from those who think they don’t apply to them.

As for saving the NHS, are you sure there were no injuries suffered by people suddenly taking sport to excess?

Even last week we had people telling us they had tourists in the Lake District from all over the Country.


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## Slime (Jan 4, 2021)

I've already had an email from my golf club announcing it's closure.

*Lockdown announcement Monday 4th January*

Good evening

Following tonight's announcement with regards new lockdown restrictions for England as of this evening (Monday 4th January 2021) the Golf Club and course is now closed.

Kind regards


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## Tiger man (Jan 4, 2021)

About time, how can anyone take these clowns seriously when we were told it's safe for schools to open, then they are shut after one day!


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## Billysboots (Jan 4, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How about hackers, are they exempt?
		
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You beat me to it!


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## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

I hope for strict enforcement.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			If that is your normal routine then good, but let’s be honest, thousands suddenly turned into professionals. As for policing it, they shouldn’t have to, people should be able to follow the rules, apart from those who think they don’t apply to them.

As for saving the NHS, are you sure there were no injuries suffered by people suddenly taking sport to excess?

Even last week we had people telling us they had tourists in the Lake District from all over the Country.
		
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i am refering to going out for a walk (or cycle/run), usually on my own. Looks like common sense and no stupid limit has been imposed as i for one would have ignored it and carried on walking. They have said about keeping local and have no problem with that, although i coukld if naughty sneak over the Bracknell border line if i get carried away!

Plenty stupid people out there - we need to keep stupid rules out of any guidelines


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Then the estate agent isn't following the guidelines. My parents are moving from where they live (around an hour away) to a bungalow just around the corner from me. While we were still in Tier 3 I had to go and check some things out in the property that they are buying as it was easier than them driving down and back. I had to arrange a time that would allow at least half an hour after the previous owner's son had left the property to allow all doors and windows to be left open and for them to wipe down everything. I then had to visit wearing a mask and gloves, with the obvious distancing from the estate agent while in the bungalow. The rules are pretty stringent for estate agents so it seems that your local one isn't sticking to them.
		
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Yeah 100% not sticking to

Next door did purple bricks and he managed his own visits .. back to back might aswell high 5 on the drive


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## chellie (Jan 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			good for them - keeping fit and sane - saves the NHS!
		
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Sorry, disagree with that. No need to cycle hundreds of miles when there is a lockdown on.


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## User62651 (Jan 4, 2021)

Tiger man said:



			About time, how can anyone take these clowns seriously when we were told it's safe for schools to open, then they are shut after one day!
		
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Worrying and strange u-turn after PM appeared on Marr *yesterday* to announce schools were safe.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			good for them - keeping fit and sane - saves the NHS!
		
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All fine till you fall off and need the air ambulance to scrape you up. Then a number of operations to put you back together again. Like happened to a mate of mine during the first lockdown.


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## Tiger man (Jan 4, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Worrying and strange u-turn after PM appeared on Marr *yesterday* to announce schools were safe. 

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Absolutely shocking from his advisers, they have continually over promised and been made to look stupid. You would think they would learn.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Worrying and strange u-turn after PM appeared on Marr *yesterday* to announce schools were safe. 

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Probably had no choice due to the number of teachers not likely to show up.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2021)

It's not great timing for us as its the wife's busiest time of the year work wise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Worrying and strange u-turn after PM appeared on Marr *yesterday* to announce schools were safe. 

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...and head of a teaching union earlier today tells us that they presented a 6-pt plan for managing schooling reopening safely back in June and got no reply from government.  The plan covered recruiting additional teaching and TA staff and building and arranging additional accommodation as well as getting all the necessary tech to everyone.

Why did he mention that plan? Because he was asked by the interviewer what he’d now do to help get schools open - whenever that might be - he grimaced and answered that he’d work with government to implement the 6-pt plan - as they should have been doing from June - and as they still will if asked.

I think I hear the PM say that he was hoping that that would be after spring half term? So they have until 22nd Feb to get the schooling sorted for safe physical return. That’s probably time enough?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 4, 2021)

China have started vaccinating people. Interestingly they are vaccinating working age people first of all. Keeping the economy going is seemingly the priority.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2021)

Anyway heard this evening just an hour ago that my wife’s favourite aunt - her mum’s 90yr old twin sister - has COVID-19 and has refused to be moved from her care home to hospital. She’s in a grim little room, alone and on oxygen. Mrs and mil both very upset.  Of course they can’t visit, so know they might never see her again...

Feels like it’s closing in on us all...😞


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

chrisd said:



			When I moved out of Croydon to Kent and met MrsD she often used the words "mutton eye" which I finally realised was country bumpkin for "mustn't I" hardly the Queens English 🤣🤣
		
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Met a lovely guy called Alan Tift. He was from Kent. He was the biggest scrounger of snuff and Owt warm from a flask. He could tell stories for England. I remember asking him one day “was he a man of Kent or a Kentish man”. He said “I always knew you were educated Tash”. Really.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Sky News just said professional sport must stop.
		
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Think Liverpool fc took that literally from 8pm.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			Sorry, disagree with that. No need to cycle hundreds of miles when there is a lockdown on.
		
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agree no need. But, without knowing any details, cycling should have zero impact on covid, so if people want to, why not!


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## PNWokingham (Jan 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			All fine till you fall off and need the air ambulance to scrape you up. Then a number of operations to put you back together again. Like happened to a mate of mine during the first lockdown.
		
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i should think a good deal more issues happen from everyday mudane things - i have seen several issue in supermarkets - but still think no logic imposing timing on execrise etc


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## DanFST (Jan 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i should think a good deal more issues happen from everyday mudane things - i have seen several issue in supermarkets - but still think no logic imposing timing on exercise etc
		
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It's the same as you can't catch Covid if you are eating. Covid can't strike if you exercise for no longer than 59 minutes. 

Lets use some common sense, if someone wants to go for a walk for a day, let them.


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## Dannyc (Jan 4, 2021)

Places of worship to remain open??


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## chrisd (Jan 4, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			Places of worship to remain open??
		
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I often pray for a putt to go in, does that make golf courses places of worship?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway heard this evening just an hour ago that my wife’s favourite aunt - her mum’s 90yr old twin sister - has COVID-19 and has refused to be moved from her care home to hospital. She’s in a grim little room, alone and on oxygen. Mrs and mil both very upset.  Of course they can’t visit, so know they might never see her again...

Feels like it’s closing in on us all...😞
		
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My MIL had her jab in her IOW care home on Saturday, tonight they inform us that they have a case on her floor.


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## Dannyc (Jan 4, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I often pray for a putt to go in, does that make golf courses places of worship?
		
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😂 
If it’s true and golf is shut that’s just ridiculous


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			Places of worship to remain open??
		
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As Faithless said. God is DJ. So let's have the nightclubs open.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and head of a teaching union earlier today tells us that they presented a 6-pt plan for managing schooling reopening safely back in June and got no reply from government.  The plan covered recruiting additional teaching and TA staff and building and arranging additional accommodation as well as getting all the necessary tech to everyone.

Why did he mention that plan? Because he was asked by the interviewer what he’d now do to help get schools open - whenever that might be - he grimaced and answered that he’d work with government to implement the 6-pt plan - as they should have been doing from June - and as they still will if asked.

I think I hear the PM say that he was hoping that that would be after spring half term? So they have until 22nd Feb to get the schooling sorted for safe physical return. That’s probably time enough?
		
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I didn't hear anything about when schools would return etc. Everything was dependent on the way the figures and the virus plays out. Hoping a situation will come about is a million miles from saying it will, or intending to make it the case. 
He said things like. ...If the vaccinations work out like we hope, ..... if the virus doesn't spread as we hope it won't etc. OWTTE
Surely by now we have learned that this is a very fluid situation, and that the final parameter is how well people respond to calls to make the virus stop spreading .
Even now , on here, there are some indicating that golf should be exempt, because they want to play golf, and consider it is completely safe.Their wants are driving their logic. Travelling to golf isn't essential, and playing ( unless on your own) does pose a risk if you are with others. It may have been negligible before ,but it seems that one inattentive moment where you might breath someone else's expelled air might just be enough for this new strain to infect? No one is sure that that is the case, but no one is sure it isn't the case either.
What is certain is , if you aren't with the other person, it won't happen.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 4, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would genuinely be amazed if that was correct. Re-entry into China is very strict, isolation rigidly enforced upon return. Few Chinese are leaving their own provinces right now, never mind the country. I could well be wrong but I would not be surprised if this was a story started by rumour and wholly inaccurate.
		
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It will be absolute bs, rehashed from a 'i heard fro someone who knows someone who knows...'
I'm a member of a few coach driving groups on facebook. Any tour work is known about and talked about. THere are no tours going on, in fact operators have been told in no uncertain terms (from the traffic comissioner)  the penalties they will face if they convey a tour, even with UK citizens on board.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 4, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I know this is political however given I highlighted her earlier with regards rule breaking....

*COVID-19: MP Margaret Ferrier arrested and charged over 'reckless conduct' after alleged coronavirus rule breach*

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This is going to be interesting to follow. Especially with the recent history of the Scottish prosecution service.

Charged by Scots police after English Police said she had not broken any laws.
Not Charged with Covid laws but by an obscure reckless law that can carry a life sentence.
Basically she has not done anything different to Prince Charles and Scottish Tory Secretary Alisdair Jack. ( other than to admit she was wrong and made a mistake.]
Marquis of Bute and 5 other passengers charged with lockdown laws when travelling from London to Bute.

Not defending her actions in any way but surely the law must be seen to be fair for all.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 4, 2021)

Crow said:



			Purely out of interest (I'm nothing to do with the grammar police), how do you decide when  to use "ave" and when to use "have"?
		
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Tashy's "Ave" is pretty much a corruption of "I have" or "I've" rather than a diminution of just "have". It's more a spoken dialect thing - Tashy is about the only person ave seen using it in text. (At school, they used to try to make us write proper)!  If I was going to write it down in dialect,  I'd more likely do it as "Ah've" or even more like""A've" - but I'm not saying Tashy's wrong.

Nb. I was born & raised within spitting distance of Tashy - but escaped.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I didn't hear anything about when schools would return etc. Everything was dependent on the way the figures and the virus plays out. Hoping a situation will come about is a million miles from saying it will, or intending to make it the case.
He said things like. ...If the vaccinations work out like we hope, ..... if the virus doesn't spread as we hope it won't etc. OWTTE
Surely by now we have learned that this is a very fluid situation, and that the final parameter is how well people respond to calls to make the virus stop spreading .
Even now , on here, there are some indicating that golf should be exempt, because they want to play golf, and consider it is completely safe.Their wants are driving their logic. Travelling to golf isn't essential, and playing ( unless on your own) does pose a risk if you are with others. It may have been negligible before ,but it seems that one inattentive moment where you might breath someone else's expelled air might just be enough for this new strain to infect? No one is sure that that is the case, but no one is sure it isn't the case either.
What is certain is , if you aren't with the other person, it won't happen.
		
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Pretty sure after half term is the target and unions seem to have clarification from the Schools Minister that this years exams in their normal form will be cancelled.  Think we are hearing more on that tomorrow from Williamson.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			It's the same as you can't catch Covid if you are eating. Covid can't strike if you exercise for no longer than 59 minutes.

Lets use some common sense, if someone wants to go for a walk for a day, let them.
		
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perhaps walks over an hour should only be permitted if you have a "substantial picknick"!


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pretty sure after half term is the target and unions seem to have clarification from the Schools Minister that this years exams in their normal form will be cancelled.  Think we are hearing more on that tomorrow from Williamson.
		
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Yes, after February half term was mentioned as being the aim. I feel that’s optimistic and we’re assuming it’ll be more like March so we don’t get hopes up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Places of worship to remain open



Dannyc said:



			😂
If it’s true and golf is shut that’s just ridiculous
		
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posted elsewhere...and not commenting on the rights or wrongs of it though in the form permitted churchgoing is not a bundle of laughs or in any way a form of recreation that most of us would recognise. My expectation was that they’d be closed.

The truth of it is that due to the demographic of regular church-goers many (if not most) churches have not been open for congregational worship as they recognise that many of their congregation will be elderly and vulnerable.

Where a church _is_ open - doors are opened to create a through draught; the congregation is strictly socially distanced; is face-masked; do not mingle or socialise before or after a service; and do not sing. I wouldn’t worry too much about church congregations being a vector for transmission of the virus 👍


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## hovis (Jan 5, 2021)

😂


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## SteveW86 (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Places of worship to remain open



posted elsewhere...and not commenting on the rights or wrongs of it though in the form permitted churchgoing is not a bundle of laughs or in any way a form of recreation that most of us would recognise. My expectation was that they’d be closed.

The truth of it is that due to the demographic of regular church-goers many (if not most) churches have not been open for congregational worship as they recognise that many of their congregation will be elderly and vulnerable.

Where a church _is_ open - doors are opened to create a through draught; the congregation is strictly socially distanced; is face-masked; do not mingle or socialise before or after a service; and do not sing. I wouldn’t worry too much about church congregations being a vector for transmission of the virus 👍
		
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For everyone to buy into this lockdown, everyone should be treated the same and unfortunately this should mean churches close too.

I in no way mean to brush off the importance of religion to those who believe in it, but is it not possible to pray at home?

And although you have said you aren’t commenting on the rights or wrong of them staying open, you then go on to try and justify why they are staying open.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Places of worship to remain open



posted elsewhere...and not commenting on the rights or wrongs of it though in the form permitted churchgoing is not a bundle of laughs or in any way a form of recreation that most of us would recognise. My expectation was that they’d be closed.

The truth of it is that due to the demographic of regular church-goers many (if not most) churches have not been open for congregational worship as they recognise that many of their congregation will be elderly and vulnerable.

Where a church _is_ open - doors are opened to create a through draught; the congregation is strictly socially distanced; is face-masked; do not mingle or socialise before or after a service; and do not sing. I wouldn’t worry too much about church congregations being a vector for transmission of the virus 👍
		
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Placating a certain part of the electorate important to the ruling party. I can't see how time spent God-bothering is safer than playing golf.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			My MIL had her jab in her IOW care home on Saturday, tonight they inform us that they have a case on her floor.
		
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She needs to be careful, the vaccine effect won't have kicked in yet.


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## Beezerk (Jan 5, 2021)

Roads just as busy this morning as they were yesterday, and the week before that, and the week before that...
Lockdown, what lockdown 😅


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			For everyone to buy into this lockdown, everyone should be treated the same and unfortunately this should mean churches close too
		
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I’m against lockdowns however we’re now in one and if it has to be that way then at least do it properly. No golf, no churches, no takeaway coffee from Costa. Yes there are discussions about the mental/health benefits of the various activities and probs my most are valid however it must be a level playing field for all. If we’re all suffering through this then we all have to give these things up.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 5, 2021)

It's madness that churches and garden centres will remain open. They will be full of the people we are locked down to try and protect 🤷


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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2021)

popped into the big tesco on my way home from golf yesterday and most of the shelves were empty,  only went in for some milk, no Semi Skimmed at all only full fat.


that was only a couple of hours after the lock down announecment, i do hope it wasn't panic buying again


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## Slab (Jan 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It's madness that churches and garden centres will remain open. *They will be full of the people we are locked down to try and protect* 🤷
		
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Yup but they are also totally devoid of younglings (so there's much less chance of encountering a covid carrier)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It's madness that churches and garden centres will remain open. They will be full of the people we are locked down to try and protect 🤷
		
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They aren’t going to be “full” though are they - the people we are trying to protect will be shielding , and the numbers going into both area just like shops etc will be controlled 

There always has to be a line to draw and people always say this and that should be open or closed. But at the end of the day it comes down to the actions of us

If we want this to be the last lockdown we have then we just suck it up and battle through 6 weeks of no golf or pubs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Plus the *big guy will keep you safe, eh*?

Madness
		
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A commonly held but somewhat mistaken generalisation  For some denominations such as mine it doesn't work in such a way...

And specifically please don't consider whatever you might hear from Evangelicals in the US as being in any way representative of the beliefs of most having a Christian belief in the UK 

That's why my church is closed.  Being open is considered to be too risky.


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## DanFST (Jan 5, 2021)

Look at us going on about Churches and Garden Centres (tho why anyone would want to be in the Garden in January is beyond me!)

I imagine that's what joe public would say about golf, hence why it's shut.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 5, 2021)

Lets start by calling an apple an apple. We talk about lockdown this, lockdown that. But it's not a lockdown if there are any "except for..." *ANY*, even one "Except for". And we have many. 

We are living under severe restrictions but we are not "locked down". That in itself could be seen as a positive. 

As you may note, the very word "Lockdown" has caused a random irritation for me (wrong thread I know).


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## BiMGuy (Jan 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They aren’t going to be “full” though are they - the people we are trying to protect will be shielding , and the numbers going into both area just like shops etc will be controlled

There always has to be a line to draw and people always say this and that should be open or closed. But at the end of the day it comes down to the actions of us

If we want this to be the last lockdown we have then we just suck it up and battle through 6 weeks of no golf or pubs.
		
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Churches might not be full. But the garden centres probably will be if the last lockdown was anything to go by. 

I'm not fussed about the pubs being shut. I vary rarely went to one anyway. I'd like golf to remain open, but I can see why it's not and accept it.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 5, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Lets start by calling an apple an apple. We talk about lockdown this, lockdown that. But it's not a lockdown if there are any "except for..." *ANY*, even one "Except for". And we have many.

We are living under severe restrictions but we are not "locked down". That in itself could be seen as a positive.

As you may note, the very word "Lockdown" has caused a random irritation for me (wrong thread I know).
		
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Tier 4 with school holiday and no sports. That’s all


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2021)

I've got a filling that broke apart and a sharp edge keeps digging into my cheek.
I phoned the dentist as was told only pain/emergencies were being seen.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They aren’t going to be “full” though are they - the people we are trying to protect will be shielding , and the numbers going into both area just like shops etc will be controlled

There always has to be a line to draw and people always say this and that should be open or closed. But at the end of the day it comes down to the actions of us

If we want this to be the last lockdown we have then we just suck it up and battle through 6 weeks of no golf or pubs.
		
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I can only assume that you went nowhere near any garden centres during the previous lockdown.

Certainly the two that I pass on the way to the local supermarket were extremely busy and I know that one of them would find it pretty near impossible to maintain Social Distancing.

Just why are they classified as essential?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Interesting thoughts last night (after the PM briefing) given by Channel 4's resident behavioural psychologist from St Andrews Uni.  One of the things that he sees essential to be different this time is that it is incumbent upon media (MSM, Social or whatever) to focus much less on where there are breaches of restrictions and much more on how widely restrictions are being adhered to.  

His guidance was that those less inclined or reluctant to adhere to the rules are more likely to not bother with them if they think that many others are not bothering - especially where they are seen to be 'getting away with it'.    Where 'not bothering' can be seen to be the very clear exception from the norm, many so susceptible may decide to stick with it.  He was very keen that we see in the media a lot less about occasional and isolated breaches - and a lot more about wider compliance.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I can only assume that you went nowhere near any garden centres during the previous lockdown.

Certainly the two that I pass on the way to the local supermarket were extremely busy and I know that one of them would find it pretty near impossible to maintain Social Distancing.

Just why are they classified as essential?
		
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No idea why they are classed as essential and garden centres were closed during the first lockdown and open during the break in November- but I don’t see that many people going through a garden centre in Jan , Feb - certainly not the vunerable and you would hope measures will be in place just like with supermarkets 

But they have decided to keep them open just like Nurseries open whilst schools closed

We could spend days and days asking why is this open whilst this is closed - will always be hard to find the balance


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## SaintHacker (Jan 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've got a filling that broke apart and a sharp edge keeps digging into my cheek.
I phoned the dentist as was told only pain/emergencies were being seen.  

Click to expand...

Surley digging into your cheek is causing pain? I had the same thing last time round my dentist saw me straight away.


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## GB72 (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting thoughts last night (after the PM briefing) given by Channel 4's resident behavioural psychologist from St Andrews Uni.  One of the things that he sees essential to be different this time is that it is incumbent upon media (MSM, Social or whatever) to focus much less on where there are breaches of restrictions and much more on how widely restrictions are being adhered to. 

His guidance was that those less inclined or reluctant to adhere to the rules are more likely to not bother with them if they think that many others are not bothering - especially where they are seen to be 'getting away with it'.    Where 'not bothering' can be seen to be the very clear exception from the norm, many so susceptible may decide to stick with it.  He was very keen that we see in the media a lot less about occasional and isolated breaches - and a lot more about wider compliance.
		
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I think that is a valid point. Widespread reporting on breaches almost gives the person contemplating the breach the excuse that they are looking for (if they are doing it, why shouldn't I do it) whereas an emphasis on compliance shows that the potential breach is wrong and against what most are doing and so encourages people to stick to the rules.


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## ger147 (Jan 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've got a filling that broke apart and a sharp edge keeps digging into my cheek.
I phoned the dentist as was told only pain/emergencies were being seen.  

Click to expand...

I had to get private treatment at my dentist to have a broken filling repaired, not sure if that's an option for you.


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## ger147 (Jan 5, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I can only assume that you went nowhere near any garden centres during the previous lockdown.

Certainly the two that I pass on the way to the local supermarket were extremely busy and I know that one of them would find it pretty near impossible to maintain Social Distancing.

*Just why are they classified as essential?*

Click to expand...

There has to be somewhere to go on the way home from church...


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I think that is a valid point. Widespread reporting on breaches almost gives the person contemplating the breach the excuse that they are looking for (if they are doing it, why shouldn't I do it) whereas an emphasis on compliance shows that the potential breach is wrong and against what most are doing and so encourages people to stick to the rules.
		
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It is a strong valid point.
But don't hold your breath expecting journalism to help the situation by declining to report the breaches they find. 😉


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## AmandaJR (Jan 5, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			perhaps walks over an hour should only be permitted if you have a "substantial picknick"!
		
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Is that one or two Scotch Eggs??


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## anotherdouble (Jan 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've got a filling that broke apart and a sharp edge keeps digging into my cheek.
I phoned the dentist as was told only pain/emergencies were being seen.  

Click to expand...

Well with that response. u must be in pain👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No idea why they are classed as essential and garden centres were closed during the first lockdown and open during the break in November- but I don’t see that many people going through a garden centre in Jan , Feb - certainly not the vunerable and you would hope measures will be in place just like with supermarkets

But they have decided to keep them open just like Nurseries open whilst schools closed

We could spend days and days asking why is this open whilst this is closed - will always be hard to find the balance
		
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As before I'm thinking that the analysis has considered risk associated with individual scenarios and the economic/social/health benefit of keeping each open.  And then simply play a bit of a numbers game aggregating risk associated with scenarios to the level deemed acceptable whilst maximising the economic/social/health benefit they provide.  As a result we end up with apparent inconsistencies - inevitable when risk and benefit sums are done in this way.  A and B are essentially identical - in the bigger picture we can have A or B but we can't have both.  One is dropped.  Apparent inconsistency.


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## GB72 (Jan 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is a strong valid point.
But don't hold your breath expecting journalism to help the situation by declining to report the breaches they find. 😉
		
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Agreed, I guess stories about people doing the right thing do not sell papers or get clicks.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 5, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Well with that response. u must be in pain👍
		
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Bob try a temporary filling, from a pharmacy.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting thoughts last night (after the PM briefing) given by Channel 4's resident behavioural psychologist from St Andrews Uni.  One of the things that he sees essential to be different this time is that *it is incumbent upon media (MSM, Social or whatever) to focus much less on where there are breaches of restrictions and much more on how widely restrictions are being adhered to*. 

His guidance was that those less inclined or reluctant to adhere to the rules are more likely to not bother with them if they think that many others are not bothering - especially where they are seen to be 'getting away with it'.    Where 'not bothering' can be seen to be the very clear exception from the norm, many so susceptible may decide to stick with it.  He was very keen that we see in the media a lot less about occasional and isolated breaches - and a lot more about wider compliance.
		
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there is absolutely no chance of that happening.

the press know that "footballer X / pop star Y breaks the rules" sells papers, unfortunately a good number of those who buy the paper then use that as a justification for them also breaking the rules.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2021)

ger147 said:



			There has to be somewhere to go on the way home from church...
		
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Very true, Ayrshire supermarkets are usually rammed with fussy well dressed customers just after midday on Sundays.


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## Slab (Jan 5, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Lets start by calling an apple an apple. We talk about lockdown this, lockdown that. But it's not a lockdown if there are any "except for..." *ANY*, even one "Except for". And we have many.

We are living under severe restrictions but we are not "locked down". That in itself could be seen as a positive.

As you may note, the very word "Lockdown" has caused a random irritation for me (wrong thread I know).
		
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There does seem to be far too many ‘exceptions’ for people to cling to or areas they can push boundaries on. I read that in England there are now only 5 acceptable reasons to leave the house. And I don’t think there is enough focus/prominence being given to these in the online media I’m reading

The message should be loud and clear, if its not one of these 5 things then you _must _stay at home. No ifs or buts. And implement a 24 hour curfew around these 5 things with roadblocks and foot patrols in shopping/public areas to do stop checks


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## woofers (Jan 5, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			For everyone to buy into this lockdown, *everyone should be treated the same* and unfortunately this should mean churches close too.
		
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road2ruin said:



			I’m against lockdowns however we’re now in one and if it has to be that way then at least do it properly. No golf, no churches, no takeaway coffee from Costa. Yes there are discussions about the mental/health benefits of the various activities and probs my most are valid however it must be a *level playing field for all*. If we’re all suffering through this then we all have to give these things up.
		
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And for Elite sport to shut down as well.....thinking specifically of Premier League football


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2021)

woofers said:



			And for Elite sport to shut down as well.....thinking specifically of Premier League football
		
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Watching elite sport gives people a release from the monotony of lockdown. You are also viewing this as a hobby for them, it is not, it is their job. They are just doing their job, the same as many others.

I hope they keep on playing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is a strong valid point.
But don't hold your breath expecting journalism to help the situation by declining to report the breaches they find. 😉
		
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True - the media loves breach stories - but if the coverage stresses a high a level of compliance - better then  just negative stuff.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 5, 2021)

woofers said:



			And for Elite sport to shut down as well.....thinking specifically of Premier League football
		
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What about pro golf?


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2021)

I hope the press and everyone uses as much force as possible, to hold the vaccination program to account. As they need to go faster than warp speed now.

At the end of each day we should have used everything, having stuff on shelves should not be when demand outstrips supply, just like when toilet rolls are in demand.  


Israel continues to march on, going to be interesting the results in the next couple of weeks/month(ie. hospital admissions numbers etc).

They have done 55% of 60+ year olds, amazing 

Eran Segal on Twitter: "Israel: 1.2 million vaccinated (14% of pop) Daily rate: 150K (1.7% of pop) ~55% of all 60+ years old vaccinated But vaccines may run out in a week First signs of the vaccine working may be a few days away, with a drop in percent of 60+ years old out of the critically ill https://t.co/OWkMnPKgyf" / Twitter

Get those drive though centres opened up and get the jabs flowing properly.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 5, 2021)

what we need to see is people getting stopped and fined if they don't have a good reason for being out.


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			what we need to see is people getting stopped and fined if they don't have a good reason for being out.
		
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How did that go in places like Spain, don't believe their figures are great ?

If you believe in lockdowns then what we need is people being arrested or wondering if they disappear afterwards and a complete proper lockdown of everything, if you want to control a virus. Virus are viruses and they are going to do what they do, infect things.

Most of the people I know who have caught the virus (probably over 30plus people), have caught it via work or care/hospitals...…….that is why only complete lockdowns work, you need to lock down basically everything.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Watching elite sport gives people a release from the monotony of lockdown. You are also viewing this as a hobby for them, it is not, it is their job. They are just doing their job, the same as many others.

I hope they keep on playing.
		
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I agree, it's a profession for them and for a lot of people it is a release so should be kept going. What I don't like is that there does seem to be double standards in terms of some teams getting games called off due to a virus outbreak and others being told they have to play. I am not going to pretend I know all the in's and out's of it however if your team has someone who has been infected with the virus then surely that points to a breach in your bubble which means you should be either forfeiting points or being made to play with a weakened side. Players should get a 3 game suspension for a breach and then a points deduction for the side if someone does it more than once. Maybe that would focus them a little more.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2021)

DRW said:



			I hope the press and everyone uses as much force as possible, to hold the vaccination program to account. As they need to go faster than warp speed now.

At the end of each day we should have used everything, having stuff on shelves should not be when demand outstrips supply, just like when toilet rolls are in demand.  


Israel continues to march on, going to be interesting the results in the next couple of weeks/month(ie. hospital admissions numbers etc).

They have done 55% of 60+ year olds, amazing 

Eran Segal on Twitter: "Israel: 1.2 million vaccinated (14% of pop) Daily rate: 150K (1.7% of pop) ~55% of all 60+ years old vaccinated But vaccines may run out in a week First signs of the vaccine working may be a few days away, with a drop in percent of 60+ years old out of the critically ill https://t.co/OWkMnPKgyf" / Twitter

Get those drive though centres opened up and get the jabs flowing properly.

Click to expand...

Isnt Israel’s level of vaccines given the same as us ? They have done just over a million and so have we maybe a bit more - but their overall population significantly lower to percentage stats will obviously look a lot better


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

DRW said:



			I hope the press and everyone uses as much force as possible, to hold the vaccination program to account. As they need to go faster than warp speed now.
		
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Unfortunately there already seem to be a number of stories coming out that the planned timings of the vaccination program are ambitious at best. I think it was mid-Feb given as being the point at which the first 4 groups of the most vulnerable would be done however a doctor speaking on the radio this morning said we were already well behind the rate and issues with supply/availability meant that it was almost certain to slip.


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## GB72 (Jan 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I agree, it's a profession for them and for a lot of people it is a release so should be kept going. What I don't like is that there does seem to be double standards in terms of some teams getting games called off due to a virus outbreak and others being told they have to play. I am not going to pretend I know all the in's and out's of it however if your team has someone who has been infected with the virus then surely that points to a breach in your bubble which means you should be either forfeiting points or being made to play with a weakened side. Players should get a 3 game suspension for a breach and then a points deduction for the side if someone does it more than once. Maybe that would focus them a little more.
		
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That is what is happening in rugby, there is a loss awarded to the side that cancels the match, a 0-0 score on the record so as to not overly influence points difference, 4 points to the winning side, 2 to the losing side.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Unfortunately there already seem to be a number of stories coming out that the planned timings of the vaccination program are ambitious at best. I think it was mid-Feb given as being the point at which the first 4 groups of the most vulnerable would be done however a doctor speaking on the radio this morning said we were already well behind the rate and issues with supply/availability meant that it was almost certain to slip.
		
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I thought it telling that in her statement to the Scottish Parliament the Scottish FM I think only mentioned one target date - that being a date in May for getting all over 50s; home residents; health and care workers; and vulnerable vaccinated.  She may have mentioned earlier dates and I missed them.  She was hopeful that she'd be able to bring that date forward if vaccinations went well - but the May target was based upon what she has been assured is definitely achievable - and wasn't going to give any 'with a fair wind' hopeful date for 'earlier'.


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Isnt Israel’s level of vaccines given the same as us ? They have done just over a million and so have we maybe a bit more - but their overall population significantly lower to percentage stats will obviously look a lot better
		
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Feeble excuse (if you are using it as an excuse). We are much bigger than them and should be able to ramp up quickly (yeah a bigger country would normally lag a smaller country)

I wasn't looking to scoring points by saying Israel are better than us, that's not my style, maybe my post came across as wrong. 

What I was saying was look at Israel and lets try to get to the same levels as them, as soon as possible and get the vaccine program properly flowing and using all the jabs available faster than we are currently.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2021)

DRW said:



			Feeble excuse (if you are using it as an excuse). We are much bigger than them and should be able to ramp up quickly (yeah a bigger country would normally lag a smaller country)

I wasn't looking to scoring points by saying Israel are better than us, that's not my style, maybe my post came across as wrong.

What I was saying was look at Israel and lets try to get to the same levels as them, as soon as possible and get the vaccine program properly flowing and using all the jabs available faster than we are currently.
		
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Wasn’t looking for any excuse - it’s about not delving too much into the numbers and we can’t compare ourselves to different countries - there are many different factors at play 

The initial vaccines were determined by how many doses were supplied to each country - it wasn’t a great amount of the Pfizer mainly because of the storage issues 

But now we have the Oxford one the hope is for the rollout to be ramped up because of the level of doses and storage facilities are much more in our favour now. 

Overall the UK will end up with over 120 million doses of the vaccine so we are all going to get it


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## woofers (Jan 5, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			What about pro golf?
		
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Yep, if we’re all in together and need set examples, shut it down......but I’m not aware of any elite pro golf being staged in the UK at the moment ?


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Unfortunately there already seem to be a number of stories coming out that the planned timings of the vaccination program are ambitious at best. I think it was mid-Feb given as being the point at which the first 4 groups of the most vulnerable would be done however a doctor speaking on the radio this morning said we were already well behind the rate and issues with supply/availability meant that it was almost certain to slip.
		
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I hate excuses , what we need to do is hold all involved to account, to ensure performance matches supply, so no excess stocks are held.

We could easily do drive though centres, if you have 10,000 jabs in Birmingham , just get it out there that people over 80 report to X and the first 10,000 gets their first jab. Jab, record on computer, park up for half an hour, job done, next.(whilst also doing the people who can not get out, which will be slower progress)

Lockdowns do not come free, damage is being done. We need to get the jabs in peoples arms as quickly as possible.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2021)

DRW said:



			Feeble excuse (if you are using it as an excuse). We are much bigger than them and should be able to ramp up quickly (yeah a bigger country would normally lag a smaller country)

I wasn't looking to scoring points by saying Israel are better than us, that's not my style, maybe my post came across as wrong.

What I was saying was look at Israel and lets try to get to the same levels as them, as soon as possible and get the vaccine program properly flowing and using all the jabs available faster than we are currently.
		
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I saaw a piece on Israel over the weekend. They will rattle through their program for a few reasons:

They paid 3 times the going rate to get vaccines in asap
Apparently they are used to doing mass immunisations (not sure why but that is what they said) This means the set up is a well oiled machine.
By law everyone has to be registered with a doctor. This makes it easy to contact people to arrange for jabs
The population is well concentrated in small areas (it is also 8.6m approx so far fewer to vaccinate)

Subtle differences but important. Hey, it could be worse, have you seen the numbers for France


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I saaw a piece on Israel over the weekend. They will rattle through their program for a few reasons:

They paid 3 times the going rate to get vaccines in asap
Apparently they are used to doing mass immunisations (not sure why but that is what they said) This means the set up is a well oiled machine.
By law everyone has to be registered with a doctor. This makes it easy to contact people to arrange for jabs
The population is well concentrated in small areas (it is also 8.6m approx so far fewer to vaccinate)

Subtle differences but important. Hey, it could be worse, have you seen the numbers for France 

Click to expand...

Don't dispute any of that and must have read a similar piece over israel, but we can do much much better. I just wish to see the UK to push forward and not hold any supplies, holding stocks are a delay in this urgent fight.

France, read they are much more anti-vaccines than us,  last I saw they were around 300-400, how is that so low 

Shame as its kind of what a waste of early vaccine supplies, when people are dying, losing they jobs, losing their businesses, dying from cancer, not going to A&E for heart attacks and so on.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 5, 2021)

DRW said:



			How did that go in places like Spain, don't believe their figures are great ?

If you believe in lockdowns then what we need is people being arrested or wondering if they disappear afterwards and a complete proper lockdown of everything, if you want to control a virus. Virus are viruses and they are going to do what they do, infect things.

Most of the people I know who have caught the virus (probably over 30plus people), have caught it via work or care/hospitals...…….that is why only complete lockdowns work, you need to lock down basically everything.
		
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Spain's overall figures are roughly comparable to ours, where the fines helped was to slow down and smooth the number of cases just when their hospitals were getting overrun.

The point I was trying to make was there is a significant percentage who will flout the rules if they know there is no punishment. And that percentage is going to be higher this year compared to last spring as the fear factor has diminished (rightly or wrongly) particularly among the young.


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## IainP (Jan 5, 2021)

DRW said:



			How did that go in places like Spain, don't believe their figures are great ?

If you believe in lockdowns then what we need is people being arrested or wondering if they disappear afterwards and a complete proper lockdown of everything, if you want to control a virus. Virus are viruses and they are going to do what they do, infect things.

Most of the people I know who have caught the virus (probably over 30plus people), have caught it via work or care/hospitals...…….that is why only complete lockdowns work, you need to lock down basically everything.
		
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Acknowledging we are just chucking thoughts around and how stats can be used in different ways, it was noticeable to me that in the last couple of days the UK went above Spain the the table no-one wants to be top of (deaths per population). Had been below ever since it existed and for a long time a decent way behind, until winter. So you could conclude they've done well the last couple of months.

On a related note, has anyone heard from @Hobbit recently? 😐


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## williamalex1 (Jan 5, 2021)

IainP said:



			Acknowledging we are just chucking thoughts around and how stats can be used in different ways, it was noticeable to me that in the last couple of days the UK went above Spain the the table no-one wants to be top of (deaths per population). Had been below ever since it existed and for a long time a decent way behind, until winter. So you could conclude they've done well the last couple of months.

On a related note, has anyone heard from @Hobbit recently? 😐
		
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Moving house, probably no internet yet


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## Imurg (Jan 5, 2021)

IainP said:



			Acknowledging we are just chucking thoughts around and how stats can be used in different ways, it was noticeable to me that in the last couple of days the UK went above Spain the the table no-one wants to be top of (deaths per population). Had been below ever since it existed and for a long time a decent way behind, until winter. So you could conclude they've done well the last couple of months.

On a related note, has anyone heard from @Hobbit recently? 😐
		
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I don't know for certain (Brian would I suspect) but Spain don't seem to be reporting everything.
15k cases and 148 deaths on 31st/12
Next report is 9k cases and 61 deaths yesterday....so nothing happened 1st, 2nd and 3rd?
Numbers seem to be reported differently in many countries and I'm not convinced comparing ours to anyone elses proves much.


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## Imurg (Jan 5, 2021)

Brian was last on at 7.45 this morning..👍


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## IainP (Jan 5, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I don't know for certain (Brian would I suspect) but Spain don't seem to be reporting everything.
15k cases and 148 deaths on 31st/12
Next report is 9k cases and 61 deaths yesterday....so nothing happened 1st, 2nd and 3rd?
Numbers seem to be reported differently in many countries and I'm not convinced comparing ours to anyone elses proves much.
		
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Partly agree, but Spain have been following this reporting pattern for a long time. They may still chuck in a big "catch up" number but it didn't arrive yesterday.


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2021)

IainP said:



			Acknowledging we are just chucking thoughts around and how stats can be used in different ways, it was noticeable to me that in the last couple of days the UK went above Spain the the table no-one wants to be top of (deaths per population). Had been below ever since it existed and for a long time a decent way behind, until winter. So you could conclude they've done well the last couple of months.

On a related note, has anyone heard from @Hobbit recently? 😐
		
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I think comparing deaths or cases is always slightly misleading, due to different testing and recording requirements between countries and different points we are in the pandemic(are we ahead due to B.1.1.7?).

In respect of deaths, maybe at this early stage excess deaths is probably the most comparable, giving reporting definitions 





I know the above doesn't go right upto date, but the +24% for Spain and +18% for UK, is maybe more comparable.

The previous post I made that you quoted (and moved onto deaths ), was trying to say, that just issuing fines and a semi lockdown is not going to stop the virus spread. China sold lockdowns to the world ((WHO never recommended it going back for example), China got the lockdown nearer right, many other countries have played at lockdowns and the results across the board are all fairly poor, once the virus has spread. I would not lockdown like Spain or UK has, I would lockdown like China did (if you can in a country like the UK).


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Well with that response. u must be in pain👍
		
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It's more of a discomfort than pain unless the sharp edge digs into my cheek



williamalex1 said:



			Bob try a temporary filling, from a pharmacy.
		
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I had no idea such a thing existed.
Research to be done, thanks William


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## garyinderry (Jan 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It's more of a discomfort than pain unless the sharp edge digs into my cheek



I had no idea such a thing existed.
Research to be done, thanks William
		
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Its useless bob.  Well it was for me.  


Pester the dentist and they can pop in a temporary filling which can last years.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 5, 2021)

DRW said:



			Don't dispute any of that and must have read a similar piece over israel, but we can do much much better. I just wish to see the UK to push forward and not hold any supplies, holding stocks are a delay in this urgent fight.

France, read they are much more anti-vaccines than us,  last I saw they were around 300-400, how is that so low 

Shame as its kind of what a waste of early vaccine supplies, when people are dying, losing they jobs, losing their businesses, dying from cancer, not going to A&E for heart attacks and so on.
		
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I cannot fault your sense of urgency, but you must be aware that logistical problems will come with this vast enterprise. It is vital that records are made of who is vaccinated. I'm not advocating giving Mr Bureaucracy a field day, but things have to be orderly. Just telling people over 80(70, or whatever) to turn up at a car park and queue ain't going to work.
 Not without parking attendants with shotguns 😁
As I see it , each surgery will make its priority list from its patients, and offer appointment times for patients to attend venues similar to large halls, etc.
In one end, go to one of several "jabbing points", and out the other.
They did that at my surgery with the flu jab, and it was successful. 
AND they were catering for all over 65. This time the categories will be tighter, so it should be a bit easier.
There will have been a fair bit of planning gone into this, after all, there has been quite a lot of notice.
We can only rely on the NHS managers getting it right.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 5, 2021)

Not reading any previous posts so someone might have already said this.

One thing I noticed this morning whilst picking up my glasses was how quiet it was in the high street.
How can these businesses unless on line continue to operate,it’s pretty heartbreaking to see.
Some people must be in such financial strife and their stress levels must be sky high.

Also recently when out with my son who was running it was heaving with people,the car park was rammed.
It’s never rammed even in the summer.
I know we have been told to stay at home unless exercising and we all need fresh air,but it seems more and more are getting out for hours at a time.
This vaccine has to work without fail


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2021)

woofers said:



			And for Elite sport to shut down as well.....thinking specifically of Premier League football
		
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The manager of Sheffield United strongly supports this idea.


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## GB72 (Jan 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The manager of Sheffield United strongly supports this idea.
		
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Not sure that Sheffield United have started the season yet let alone wanting a shut down.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The manager of Sheffield United strongly supports this idea.
		
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Imagine that - the team that’s struggling tbe most wanting a stop , I’m surprised West Brom manager hasn’t followed the same path - oh he already has

Let’s be honest the managers/teams will only look after their own interests in the same way OGS said there is no reason to stop


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It's more of a discomfort than pain unless the sharp edge digs into my cheek



I had no idea such a thing existed.
Research to be done, thanks William
		
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Where’s the old Swan Vesta matches when you need them. Became a vital bit of kit when your in the middle of nowhere


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

So tomorrow is the first day of school and we've just had our link to the Google Classroom which they are using. This has caused a fair amount of anger within the WhatsApp group as essentially the teacher uploads a load of work the day before and it is up to the children to work through them the next day. The issue is that we're talking 6/7yr olds who can't actually do that alone and so it will require an adult being with them pretty much all day. There is one Zoom period which is first thing, basically registration then it's a case of going for it and uploading the work done. The feeling is that this is no better than the teaching we had during the first lockdown however at least then there was the excuse that it was completely out of the blue and no school could have been prepared. All I have seen are teachers saying how hard it all is and that whilst they were not going into school to teach they would be working just as hard but at home however in this instance it is uploading the work plan, doing a registration followed by not a lot!!

A number of the parents have called the school to ask what is going on, why are there no live lessons over Zoom etc only to be told that they can't do that as it's not fair on those that don't have the technology. That is a very fair point if they had taken the time to ask the parents what technology their student would have access to however they haven't, they have just based it on the worst case. I should add, this is an infant school with only a single year intake so we're talking about 26 students in a year!! This means that to ensure they don't disadvantage those who have no/limited access to technology (they haven't checked on those) they are disadvantaging those who have single parents/full time working parents instead. 

Just to add, I know that this isn't going to be the case in every school and will not be every teacher however I do suspect that this lockdown will show the difference in teacher quality/attitudes with those who are genuinely keen and have the capacity to teach versus those that will play the system and re-hash the work from last lockdown.


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## larmen (Jan 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine that - the team that’s struggling tbe most wanting a stop , I’m surprised West Brom manager hasn’t followed the same path - oh he already has

Let’s be honest the managers/teams will only look after their own interests in the same way OGS said there is no reason to stop
		
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Last year in Germany my team ws rock bottom at shut down. I was hoping they don't restart but we did, and we actually managed to get the points we needed to stay up, against all odds. The manager was saying all the time we want to complete teh season, and it turns out he was right, by 1 goal in a game we didn't even play ;-)


Just been to the dentist with the little one and that got me thinking. You have medical trained personal which SHOULD see all adult residents within 6 months tops anyway. There seem to be scope for a vaccination chain right there?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So tomorrow is the first day of school and we've just had our link to the Google Classroom which they are using. This has caused a fair amount of anger within the WhatsApp group as essentially the teacher uploads a load of work the day before and it is up to the children to work through them the next day. The issue is that we're talking 6/7yr olds who can't actually do that alone and so it will require an adult being with them pretty much all day. There is one Zoom period which is first thing, basically registration then it's a case of going for it and uploading the work done. The feeling is that this is no better than the teaching we had during the first lockdown however at least then there was the excuse that it was completely out of the blue and no school could have been prepared. All I have seen are teachers saying how hard it all is and that whilst they were not going into school to teach they would be working just as hard but at home however in this instance it is uploading the work plan, doing a registration followed by not a lot!!

A number of the parents have called the school to ask what is going on, why are there no live lessons over Zoom etc only to be told that they can't do that as it's not fair on those that don't have the technology. That is a very fair point if they had taken the time to ask the parents what technology their student would have access to however they haven't, they have just based it on the worst case. I should add, this is an infant school with only a single year intake so we're talking about 26 students in a year!! This means that to ensure they don't disadvantage those who have no/limited access to technology (they haven't checked on those) they are disadvantaging those who have single parents/full time working parents instead.

Just to add, I know that this isn't going to be the case in every school and will not be every teacher however I do suspect that this lockdown will show the difference in teacher quality/attitudes with those who are genuinely keen and have the capacity to teach versus those that will play the system and re-hash the work from last lockdown.
		
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Surely some of the teachers(no idea how many) will also be in school teaching those kids from key worker families.
Therefore there may not be enough teachers to cover classes and home schooling.

No idea if this is in every school, but is certainly the case in a couple of schools I know of up here in the NE.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely some of the teachers(no idea how many) will also be in school teaching those kids from key worker families.
Therefore there may not be enough teachers to cover classes and home schooling.

No idea if this is in every school, but is certainly the case in a couple of schools I know of up here in the NE.
		
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Not in our school, it only has 3 years (85 children) and assuming the same level of key worker children that was 7 during lockdown 1.0 so was managed by support staff. We were hoping/expecting that this time round, whilst it definitely couldn't be the same as a normal school day there would have been more (remote) F2F contact. One of the other schools locally is doing 4 hours on Zoom per day which is very much what I think all schools should be doing assuming they don't have staffing issues. Again, it just turns into a bit of a lottery over the next 8-10 weeks or so.


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2021)

If your interested about mutant viruses, an interesting twitter account and worth saving to read their work. The most recent results over the south Africa and other mutations, some good and not so good news :-

Bloom Lab on Twitter: "We mapped how all mutations to #SARSCoV2 receptor-binding domain (RBD) affect recognition by convalescent polyclonal human sera (https://t.co/fCJvAnXhs8). Among implications: E484K (South African lineage) worrying for immune escape; RBD mutations in UK lineage less so (1/n)." / Twitter

their stuff ont he common cold coron virus is a good read.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It's more of a discomfort than pain unless the sharp edge digs into my cheek



I had no idea such a thing existed.
Research to be done, thanks William
		
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Worth a try for under a tenner, some good and bad reviews, try Boots if they come in your size  
Wow !! An amazing coincident, my daughter just called saying a filling has came out and wants me to get her a temporary tooth repair kit  asap


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## BiMGuy (Jan 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely some of the teachers(no idea how many) will also be in school teaching those kids from key worker families.
Therefore there may not be enough teachers to cover classes and home schooling.

No idea if this is in every school, but is certainly the case in a couple of schools I know of up here in the NE.
		
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But this is not happening in most cases. The key worker kids ar getting the same work as all the other kids.

My son's school appears to be run by militant leftie types who are saying they need time to sort out online learning as they have not been told what to do. They have had 9 months to prepare for this.
Yet these people are supposed to be educating our youngsters.

So he has spent the day redoing the homework he was set over Christmas. Which appears not many other kids did. This is after spending months going over the work he did at home during the original lockdown, because many of the other kids didn't and were too far behind to move one.
They are an absolute joke. Not much makes me apoplectic, but this lot have.

My daughters school on the other hand. Started a full day of online classes at 8:45 this morning with a teacher new to the school. And have been working away perfectly well all day.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2021)

IainP said:



			On a related note, has anyone heard from @Hobbit recently? 😐
		
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Still alive.

With a number of family health issues and moving house I found my self getting too angry with people. Those I growled at excessively on here, I apologise. You weren't alone as some 'real' people around me got growled at too. As a result I've put myself on the naughty step. I pop in most days, but only as a reader.

How has Covid affected me/my family in the last month or so? Daughter #3, a 31 year old primary school teacher, caught Covid early Dec. It manifested itself as a very nasty cold. Her boyfriend caught it from her and has been very ill. No long Covid symptoms for either of them. However, she was 6.5 months pregnant when she caught Covid, now 7.5 months, and the baby hasn't grown since the beginning of Dec.

Daughter #2; her sight has marginally improved, although as far as the hospital are concerned there is no improvement. She now also tires easily and struggles to walk. Obviously still a worry, especially as she has other long term health issues that Covid would have a field day with.

Daughter #1 gave birth mid-Nov. Just before Christmas the g'son was rushed into hospital, and he was operated on just after Christmas - now back home. Obviously going into hospital with Covid around was concerning. And the worry was at 9 on the Richter scale.

And we can't fly in to be with them..... stressful? Hell, yes!!

Spain since October; Numbers started to rise late Oct/early Nov, leading to regional, then municipality(town) lockdown through till a week before Christmas. That lockdown absolutely worked across most of Spain. Locally, numbers were virtually back to zero by the 17th Dec when lockdown was lifted. This last week has seen numbers steadily climbing again and we will see at least a regional lockdown from the 10th. We're expecting that by then that it will be municipality lockdowns - some towns in Murcia have already gone to that.

The new (British) variant arrived in Malaga and Granada just before Christmas. 7 cases, all of which were Brits who'd flown in to their primary residence in Spain, and all had posted a negative PCR test.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			But this is not happening in most cases. The key worker kids ar getting the same work as all the other kids.

My son's school appears to be run by militant leftie types who are saying they need time to sort out online learning as they have not been told what to do. They have had 9 months to prepare for this.
Yet these people are supposed to be educating our youngsters.

So he has spent the day redoing the homework he was set over Christmas. Which appears not many other kids did. This is after spending months going over the work he did at home during the original lockdown, because many of the other kids didn't and were too far behind to move one.
They are an absolute joke. Not much makes me apoplectic, but this lot have.

My daughters school on the other hand. Started a full day of online classes at 8:45 this morning with a teacher new to the school. And have been working away perfectly well all day.
		
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Is it not happening in most cases as you state though? I can only speak about the local schools in my area I have contacts/dealings with and the biggest gripe seems to be the lack of support from some parents for the kids school work and the odd teacher within schools, certainly not heard or seen any total school get slated as per your son’s school.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Still alive.

With a number of family health issues and moving house I found my self getting too angry with people. Those I growled at excessively on here, I apologise. You weren't alone as some 'real' people around me got growled at too. As a result I've put myself on the naughty step. I pop in most days, but only as a reader.

How has Covid affected me/my family in the last month or so? Daughter #3, a 31 year old primary school teacher, caught Covid early Dec. It manifested itself as a very nasty cold. Her boyfriend caught it from her and has been very ill. No long Covid symptoms for either of them. However, she was 6.5 months pregnant when she caught Covid, now 7.5 months, and the baby hasn't grown since the beginning of Dec.

Daughter #2; her sight has marginally improved, although as far as the hospital are concerned there is no improvement. She now also tires easily and struggles to walk. Obviously still a worry, especially as she has other long term health issues that Covid would have a field day with.

Daughter #1 gave birth mid-Nov. Just before Christmas the g'son was rushed into hospital, and he was operated on just after Christmas - now back home. Obviously going into hospital with Covid around was concerning. And the worry was at 9 on the Richter scale.

And we can't fly in to be with them..... stressful? Hell, yes!!

Spain since October; Numbers started to rise late Oct/early Nov, leading to regional, then municipality(town) lockdown through till a week before Christmas. That lockdown absolutely worked across most of Spain. Locally, numbers were virtually back to zero by the 17th Dec when lockdown was lifted. This last week has seen numbers steadily climbing again and we will see at least a regional lockdown from the 10th. We're expecting that by then that it will be municipality lockdowns - some towns in Murcia have already gone to that.

The new (British) variant arrived in Malaga and Granada just before Christmas. 7 cases, all of which were Brits who'd flown in to their primary residence in Spain, and all had posted a negative PCR test.
		
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Fingers crossed for the family mate, you did better than me, I only lasted 7 days.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			But this is not happening in most cases. The key worker kids ar getting the same work as all the other kids.

My son's school appears to be run by militant leftie types who are saying they need time to sort out online learning as they have not been told what to do. They have had 9 months to prepare for this.
Yet these people are supposed to be educating our youngsters.

So he has spent the day redoing the homework he was set over Christmas. Which appears not many other kids did. This is after spending months going over the work he did at home during the original lockdown, because many of the other kids didn't and were too far behind to move one.
They are an absolute joke. Not much makes me apoplectic, but this lot have.

My daughters school on the other hand. Started a full day of online classes at 8:45 this morning with a teacher new to the school. And have been working away perfectly well all day.
		
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It really depends on how it was handled before Xmas 

My wife's school sent every member of staff home with their work laptops before Xmas just incase they didn't come back

They were told back to work as normal yesterday in the end I think they went in to prepare for mass testing and now a rota is being sorted for people in school for key workers and those doing online learning 

My mum's school similar story 

However if you were in say tier 2 or 3 before Xmas maybe the schools didnt have the plans in place 

It takes a little while to set up for online learning and get the plan in place for key workers just depends when the plans have been actioned


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 5, 2021)

One in 50 people in England have Covid right now.
That is scary especially now leading into the Mixed Christmas time scale


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			who are saying they need time to sort out online learning as they have not been told what to do. 

They have had 9 months to prepare for this.
		
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my experience is not quite as bad as yours however I completely agree with this. Was the decision to close schools left too late? Yes, should have been made weeks before when it was pretty clear the direction this was going. 

However any school blaming the government for the short notice is purely trying to gloss over their own short comings. Schools might have been closed at a moments notice at any point since September so surely should have had (or been working on) a robust remote learning system. This fiasco not only shows those in power in a bad light but also the schools scrabbling round claiming that they weren’t given enough time to prepare.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Almost 61,000 positive cases recorded yesterday - a (grim) record.  But then what was the 80,000 figure the PM talked of in the 8pm briefing yesterday for 29th December? 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-tested-positive-Coronavirus-29-December.html

Apologies if this has already been covered, but just seeking clarification


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## fundy (Jan 5, 2021)

The numbers reported each day cover a variety of testing dates as many tests results are delayed

The 80k is people who took the actual test on the 29th


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## IainP (Jan 5, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			One in 50 people in England have Covid right now.
That is scary especially now leading into the Mixed Christmas time scale
		
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Agree.
Mind you one in 71 people feels pretty scary also - can you guess where?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2021)

Wife has been on a zoom call. Apparently they appear to have nearly 150 kids who parents are suddenly key workers coming in tomorrow. In the first lockdown they maxed out at 45. Simply parents passing responsibility (imo). 

Only 2 Covid beds left in ICU again and deaths in the last few days up, even on the first wave. Staff knackered, morale low and it already feels a long slog.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Wife has been on a zoom call. Apparently they appear to have nearly 150 kids who parents are suddenly key workers coming in tomorrow. In the first lockdown they maxed out at 45. Simply parents passing responsibility (imo). 

Only 2 Covid beds left in ICU again and deaths in the last few days up, even on the first wave. Staff knackered, morale low and it already feels a long slog.
		
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I dunno homer I know companies are being awful about their essienal status 

My friends company won't let their staff work from home even though they can

They claim their key workers as they supply gas and water companies with components

Now yes this may be true .. but that member of staff can work from home so should 

Tfl has again sent all staff home that aren't operations if they can work from home they must .
Just depends on your company


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Wife has been on a zoom call. Apparently they appear to have nearly 150 kids who parents are suddenly key workers coming in tomorrow. In the first lockdown they maxed out at 45. Simply parents passing responsibility (imo).
		
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Friend’s wife works for a well know cheese producer. She’s an accountant but due to the industry can officially be put into the key worker category. They’ve resisted using it however due to the lack of remote learning the school is doing they are now considering it.


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## larmen (Jan 5, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Wife has been on a zoom call. Apparently they appear to have nearly 150 kids who parents are suddenly key workers coming in tomorrow. In the first lockdown they maxed out at 45. Simply parents passing responsibility (imo).
		
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Shouldn’t it be BOTH parents being key workers?

For example, if you have a couple where one is key worker and the other is not, then he/she should be looking after the kid.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2021)

larmen said:



			Shouldn’t it be BOTH parents being key workers?

For example, if you have a couple where one is key worker and the other is not, then he/she should be looking after the kid.
		
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No this isn't the case

One key worker 

I can see the logic in what you have said but officially it's 1


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2021)

larmen said:



			Shouldn’t it be BOTH parents being key workers?

For example, if you have a couple where one is key worker and the other is not, then he/she should be looking after the kid.
		
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I would assume so, The consensus is the school is open for key workers so lets farm the kid there. Sounds harsh but there you have it. The head teacher has already said she expects that number to rise. On the plus side all the staff were tested today and no positive cases.


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## larmen (Jan 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			No this isn't the case

One key worker

I can see the logic in what you have said but officially it's 1
		
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Then I think this might be the difference between lockdown 1 and now which explains a lot of the extra numbers? Adding a few where companies classifying themselves like they want to fall into key categories?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2021)

larmen said:



			Then I think this might be the difference between lockdown 1 and now which explains a lot of the extra numbers? Adding a few where companies classifying themselves like they want to fall into key categories?
		
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Maybe, but also could be those before who struggled to home school whilst working from home have decided this time to take the option up to help them work

Or maybe they were furlough last time but not this time 

Many reasons I guess 

Our daughter has been pre school as it's open because my wife can't handle all 3 at once if I'm at work, she feels terrible but then someone pointed out if she didn't have the twins she would be at work so daughter would be in pre school .


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## Tashyboy (Jan 5, 2021)

larmen said:



			Shouldn’t it be BOTH parents being key workers?

For example, if you have a couple where one is key worker and the other is not, then he/she should be looking after the kid.
		
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As has been mentioned on this forum where folk have been lax through this pandemic, I mentioned to daughter yesterday that all the “essential worker parents” will be turning up at school today. They did. One parent who runs the barbers shop in the village turned up with there little un. What do you say. He is a Barber. 
Now don’t get me wrong, the school has been fantastic with its home schooling in previous lockdowns. But some parents are taking the proverbial.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55552962

Well done 👍


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## Reemul (Jan 5, 2021)

My wife's school has 7 school years - reception to year 6. (210 Pupils) She will be in twice a week to support key worker children (they have 40 in school) They need 3 teachers in to cover that. On top of that she has to deliver online learning, 2 zoom lessons a day, she is Senco (Special Educational needs)1 day a week and schools direct leader, training new teachers who are in the cluster.

There is a difference between the best and worst but there always is. I will say she works way too hard and from today will be working even harder, like now at 7.20pm still working away. It's like 5 days a week until 10pm most nights and lots of work across the weekend. You now need live lessons, online lessons, key worker lessons, cover and support for those that are struggling or need additional support.

I really get that it is difficult for people to understand how hard most of them work but it is really frustrating to see all the negativity against them and accusations of lazy, skiving morons. Teaching has one of the highest turn overs of staff in the country and do you know why, because these bright eyed new staff join thinking it's 9-3 Monday to Friday with 13 weeks a year holiday when in fact it's 7.30am to 10pm 5 days a week plus 4 or more hours at the weekend and working during holidays, oh yeah lets start at £20k a yer as well. Most new teachers quit within 2 years. My wife is a schools direct leader and she says the reality behind the role and what people think is so far apart it's embarrassing.

What is interesting is the amount of parents when expected to teach their kids for more than 10 minutes even when on Furlough cannot do it but still accuse teachers of being useless, long holidays, waste of space, skivers etc. I do believe more and more people are starting to appreciate what it takes to be a teacher and a good one at that but there are lots of people out there with no idea.

Today my wife got some abuse on school chat because by 9.20am there was not a full suite of work on their for the kids, she had official confirmation at 8.45pm last night from the school of next steps and was in school all day today trying to cover as well as get a weeks worth of lesson up online having already done that for in person lessons which just do not work in an online situation. I mean my wife will have to put up with Me working from Home, both my boys working from home and her working from home. It's in no way easy for anyone.

While the current situation has shown the good in people it has also really highlighted a lot more people than I would have realised who are total arseholes with zero comprehension of what other people do or have to do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

fundy said:



			The numbers reported each day cover a variety of testing dates as many tests results are delayed

The 80k is people who took the actual test on the 29th
		
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Ah right.  When he said it I thought that that was the number of positives as that’s what’s usually given - not sure why the number tested would be significant enough to be the lead stat in respect of the decision to L/D.  Anyway.  Not quibbling.


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## Reemul (Jan 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			my experience is not quite as bad as yours however I completely agree with this. Was the decision to close schools left too late? Yes, should have been made weeks before when it was pretty clear the direction this was going.

However any school blaming the government for the short notice is purely trying to gloss over their own short comings. Schools might have been closed at a moments notice at any point since September so surely should have had (or been working on) a robust remote learning system. This fiasco not only shows those in power in a bad light but also the schools scrabbling round claiming that they weren’t given enough time to prepare.
		
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See it's post like these that get my goat, you think, you assume, you guess, as I mention above she is already working 70 or 80 hours a week just trying to manage the work load on top of missing teachers due to isolation, covering classes and you think they should be prepared, ready and have work there just in case we shut down again when the government say all is well.

Being a school teacher is a bit like being a football manager, everyone is an expert but has never actually done the job themself...


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2021)

Reemul said:



			See it's post like these that get my goat, you think, you assume, you guess, as I mention above she is already working 70 or 80 hours a week just trying to manage the work load on top of missing teachers due to isolation, covering classes and you think they should be prepared, ready and have work there just in case we shut down again when the government say all is well.

Being a school teacher is a bit like being a football manager, everyone is an expert but has never actually done the job themself...
		
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The most under appreciated job in Britain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Wife has been on a zoom call. Apparently they appear to have nearly 150 kids who parents are suddenly key workers coming in tomorrow. In the first lockdown they maxed out at 45. Simply parents passing responsibility (imo).

Only 2 Covid beds left in ICU again and deaths in the last few days up, even on the first wave. Staff knackered, morale low and it already feels a long slog.
		
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Couple we know with 9 yr old at school.  She is deemed a key worker providing foot care services to care homes and getting involved in vaccinations; he’s a tradesman.  They’ll claim their lad has to go to school as hubby can’t stay home for childcare.  Truth is that as they are both self-employed either could take time away from work to do childcare. But they won’t and the school will be expected to do that.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The most under appreciated job in Britain.
		
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Definitely true when you look in the list of key workers for the vaccine.!


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## fundy (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah right.  When he said it I thought that that was the number of positives as that’s what’s usually given - not sure why the number tested would be significant enough to be the lead stat in respect of the decision to L/D.  Anyway.  Not quibbling.
		
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In both cases its people who tested positive, the difference is one is day tests reported, the other is the day the tests were taken


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

Reemul said:



			See it's post like these that get my goat, you think, you assume, you guess, as I mention above she is already working 70 or 80 hours a week just trying to manage the work load on top of missing teachers due to isolation, covering classes and you think they should be prepared, ready and have work there just in case we shut down again when the government say all is well.

Being a school teacher is a bit like being a football manager, everyone is an expert but has never actually done the job themself...
		
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One thing I’ve been wondering about the schools.  Has the government provided additional funding to your wife’s school over the last four months say, to enable the school to recruit additional teachers, TAs and support assistants? As a mitigation for what has happened? Has the school had additional funding to increase accommodation - so to have built such a portacabins in the playground or for booking alternative accommodation such as halls or hotel conference rooms somthat classes could be split.  Was anything of that sort done over the last few months?

I hope you get that I am supportive and you get where I’m coming from.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Couple we know with 9 yr old at school.  She is deemed a key worker providing foot care services to care homes and getting involved in vaccinations; he’s a tradesman.  They’ll claim their lad has to go to school as hubby can’t stay home for childcare.  Truth is that as they are both self-employed either could take time away from work to do childcare. But they won’t and the school will be expected to do that.
		
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Can you really sit in judgement of this couple? Can they really take time away being self employed? What if the first Lockdown has left them penniless or caused issues in their relationship?

Unless they are breaking any rules, and going by their professions they aren’t then it’s not an issue.

Nice display of Christian Spirit! This forum is getting worse for curtain twitchers!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Definitely true when you look in the list of key workers for the vaccine.!
		
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My mum has been a teacher all my life and I've seen how hard she works during the "holidays" etc 

Going into school for revision classes for her students 

Lesson planning 

Lots of other stuff 

Even now she works 3 days a week semi retired and she working flat out as always


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

fundy said:



			In both cases its people who tested positive, the difference is one is day tests reported, the other is the day the tests were taken
		
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So the 80,000 figure (bit too round to be accurate) was an estimate of total positives recorded on the 29th as a result of tests carried out over previous days?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Is that one or two Scotch Eggs??
		
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only one if under 60 minutes - but any longer and that needs 2!


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## fundy (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So the 80,000 figure (bit too round to be accurate) was an estimate of total positives recorded on the 29th as a result of tests carried out over previous days?
		
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no the 80,000 was people who took a test on the 29th and tested positive, but that were reported anyday from the 29th until yesterday


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My mum has been a teacher all my life and I've seen how hard she works during the "holidays" etc

Going into school for revision classes for her students

Lesson planning

Lots of other stuff

Even now she works 3 days a week semi retired and she working flat out as always
		
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Has always been this way.
Dedicated staff are taken for granted far to often.
Some of the comments from parents on my daughters wats app group are really very poor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Can you really sit in judgement of this couple? Can they really take time away being self employed? What if the first Lockdown has left them penniless or caused issues in their relationship?

Unless they are breaking any rules, and going by their professions they aren’t then it’s not an issue.

Nice display of Christian Spirit! This forum is getting worse for curtain twitchers!
		
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Yes they could. Without any difficulty. Well most certainly she could. They are far from penniless and got multiple grants first time round.  Just simply pointing out that I fear many parents will expect schools to do more than they should have to do.   If we are all going to pull together we might all have to make some quite significant sacrifices.  Am I being too judgemental - certainly yes - but we know them too well...🙄


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## DanFST (Jan 5, 2021)

Z List, travels to barbados, then breaks quarantine whilst infected trying to get home.

It's ok tho, It was just a "mix up". There are some people that deserve to be sent to Cramond Island and left.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes they could. Without any difficulty. Well most certainly she could. They are far from penniless and got multiple grants first time round.  Just simply pointing out that I fear many parents will expect schools to do more than they should have to do.   If we are all going to pull together we might all have to make some quite significant sacrifices.  Am I being too judgemental - certainly yes - but we know them too well...🙄
		
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Are they breaking any laws? The schools were yesterday expecting to teach every kid, They might have also made arrangements to work over the next few weeks. Sitting in judgement is poor.

Their kid is their responsibility not yours and just like it was wrong for people to question you a parent, it’s wrong for you to question them.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

Reemul said:



			See it's post like these that get my goat, you think, you assume, you guess, as I mention above she is already working 70 or 80 hours a week just trying to manage the work load on top of missing teachers due to isolation, covering classes and you think they should be prepared, ready and have work there just in case we shut down again when the government say all is well.

Being a school teacher is a bit like being a football manager, everyone is an expert but has never actually done the job themself...
		
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I know the school, it’s tiny, 90 pupils in total across 3 years. That means it’s very easy to see who is in and who isn’t. They’ve done very well on the number of Covid cases and none of the staff are isolating and so none are covering other classes. I could understand your comment based on some other, larger schools that have a large numbers of isolations but this simply isn’t the case with this particular school. 

There should have been a plan for remote learning, there doesn’t seem to have been. The good news is that due to the number of parents complaining they are going to review their teaching practice for next week so hopefully things will improve.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Are they breaking any laws? The schools were yesterday expecting to teach every kid, They might have also made arrangements to work over the next few weeks. Sitting in judgement is poor.

Their kid is their responsibility not yours and just like it was wrong for people to question you a parent, it’s wrong for you to question them.
		
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I’m not going to,go,into,it further other than comment that they could easily look after their own child thereby making it easier for the school to look after children who absolutely need to be at school.  Nothing more than that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m not going to,go,into,it further other than comment that they could easily look after their own child thereby making it easier for the school to look after children who absolutely need to be at school.  Nothing more than that.
		
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And this is a couple you know! God help them.


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## Reemul (Jan 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			One thing I’ve been wondering about the schools.  Has the government provided additional funding to your wife’s school over the last four months say, to enable the school to recruit additional teachers, TAs and support assistants? As a mitigation for what has happened? Has the school had additional funding to increase accommodation - so to have built such a portacabins in the playground or for booking alternative accommodation such as halls or hotel conference rooms somthat classes could be split.  Was anything of that sort done over the last few months?

I hope you get that I am supportive and you get where I’m coming from.
		
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Nope no additional funding. I think the thing most people don't get is that it is difficult enough to run a school in normal times, what with the lack of investment that things just get harder and harder for everyone involved. It's not like a head can think , I know lets set up a marquee on the sports field, just not allowed, all has to go through the local education authority. Additionally where do we magic up these extra teachers if we split everything in half, like the Nightingales the resources are just not there any more.

We already don't have enough teachers and now we have society needing schools to not just be there for education but as a childcare service, kids dropped off at 7.45am and collected at 6pm every day so parents can work to afford everything they owe on, most families cannot cope with a loss of income in any way and this is leading to more support needed from others so they can work longer hours.

The reality is for some school is not as much about education but childcare too and the current situation has shown this warts and all.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

Reemul said:



			We already don't have enough teachers and now we have society needing schools to not just be there for education but as a childcare service, kids dropped off at 7.45am and collected at 6pm every day so parents can work to afford everything they owe on, most families cannot cope with a loss of income in any way and this is leading to more support needed from others so they can work longer hours.

The reality is for some school is not as much about education but childcare too and the current situation has shown this warts and all.
		
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The breakfast clubs and after school care are charged for and generally not run by teachers. These are additional services so if parents choose to use them that is not taking adding time to any particular teachers time unless they choose to do so.


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## DanFST (Jan 5, 2021)

Following on from the football thread, and numerous celebrities getting caught out today and facing no ramifications.

I don't know why I thought enforcement would be different this time around. But this whole thing is pointless and got me down so much.

I know it's not right, but I'm so close to jetting off to Dubai for a month. No one gives a s***


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Following on from the football thread, and numerous celebrities getting caught out today and facing no ramifications.

I don't know why I thought enforcement would be different this time around. But this whole thing is pointless and got me down so much.

I know it's not right, but I'm so close to jetting off to Dubai for a month. No one gives a s***
		
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Thing is it’s not just the celebs and the rule breaking for me. It’s the fact that Hancock is concerned about the SA variant (for example) yet we still have many travelling from that region who are not tested when they arrive, do not have to isolate yet we’re told that it’s more transmissible and possibly the vaccine will not be effective to it. 

In an interview I was listening to today, we would be bringing in strictest rules however surely that’s too late. It’s now here so what’s the point in restricting people, that particular horse has bolted. I have friends who have dual Australian citizenship, they decided about 6 weeks ago that they’d rather spend the winter in Oz. They arrived, spent 14 days in a Sydney hotel being run by the Government. They said it was like something out of the Handsmaid Tale, couples in one hotel, singles in a other. It cost them £2,500 each for the privilege. That’s how you do it.


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## Reemul (Jan 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The breakfast clubs and after school care are charged for and generally not run by teachers. These are additional services so if parents choose to use them that is not taking adding time to any particular teachers time unless they choose to do so.
		
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They don't employ additional staff to run them, the current staff get paid extra to work it if they wish (you cannot get staff prepared to work 15.30 - 17.30 for low wages and be qualified and cleared to look after kids that easily), which is fine until things like covid but the management team, heads of year, heads of key stage  are also there to monitor and ensure there are no issues. But it is no longer a choice it is an expectation that all schools offer this and the amount of work it generates for the school is massive. This choose to thing is so out of touch, for you it may be but the expectation and in all fairness need to is massive now, parents both need to work full time to afford all the goodies they require and they expect schools to do that for them.

Schools have become childminders not educators and my wife's school is a small school, single form entry is the lowest numbers and definitely easier to manage than the larger schools like my sons school is two form entry so double the numbers. Today i spoke to a colleague who is working from home as is his wife (Part time 3 days a week as a fund raiser), they have 2 kids, one 18 months and the other 5 and in reception year. The 18 month is in nursery but the other spent as much time as possible in nursery last lockdowns, but now he is at school and he was saying they were arguing over how they could get him on the key worker list as it was a pain having him home. We aren't key workers he just wants someone else to deal with his problem so he doesn't half to and in his eyes that's the school. Times this by 1000's and you see the issue. Always different looking from the outside in.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 6, 2021)

Fully agree that people don’t understand the teaching profession until they have either worked in or or lived with someone who does.

My wife was up until 11:30 last night planning both online and in class lessons, up again at 6:30 this morning. On top of us sharing childcare for our 15 month old daughter whilst I am working from home. Add to this she is recovering from catching COVID in school at the end of last term.

We are fortunate that we have grandparents who do our childcare, next week our daughter will start going back to them, but we are doing an extra week of isolation to minimise the risk of passing it to them.


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## DanFST (Jan 6, 2021)

Friend called me at 3am absolutely hammered having a breakdown. 

Works as a Physio for the NHS and loves his job. He signed up to help people recover after operations and get them back to normality. He got thrown into help the covid ward since the start of this. He said this latest round of constantly setting up, then pulling Intubators from dead people has broken him. Not sure he can do it anymore. He was in a very bad way and I'm pretty worried. 

So when you see someone on Twitter say hospitals are empty staff are having a jolly. Think of most that have been moved around and are almost at breaking point.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Friend called me at 3am absolutely hammered having a breakdown.

Works as a Physio for the NHS and loves his job. He signed up to help people recover after operations and get them back to normality. He got thrown into help the covid ward since the start of this. He said this latest round of constantly setting up, then pulling Intubators from dead people has broken him. Not sure he can do it anymore. He was in a very bad way and I'm pretty worried.

So when you see someone on Twitter say hospitals are empty staff are having a jolly. Think of most that have been moved around and are almost at breaking point.
		
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Physio has turned out to be a very big deal as the positioning of patients in ICU beds to allow effective clearing of gunk from the lungs is pretty critical.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2021)

This goes some way to painting an accurate picture of how tough it is at the moment https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-a-doctor-shares-images-of-a-london-coronavirus-ward-12180269

For those that think staff have been on a jolly after the first lockdown need to wise up. Most departments have been at full tilt trying to catch up with missed appointments, often with staff missing through isolating or taking much needed annual leave. There was a huge drain on staff in terms of physical effort and mental fatigue during the first lockdown and most haven't recovered before we saw a second wave and then this new surge. They are empty but expected in every day. It isn't just front line nurses looking after Covid patients but all nursing staff are having extra demands put upon them. There has certainly been no downtime I've seen in this trust

Our physios have seen their workload ramped up in assisting with proning in particular which can take a large number of staff (all in PPE) to turn a patient correctly

It annoys me when people buy into media hype or make wild assumptions based on limited experience or knowledge


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## DanFST (Jan 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Physio has turned out to be a very big deal as the positioning of patients in ICU beds to allow effective clearing of gunk from the lungs is pretty critical.
		
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He's a respiratory physio. Retrospectively, a shocking choice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Nope no additional funding. I think the thing most people don't get is that it is difficult enough to run a school in normal times, what with the lack of investment that things just get harder and harder for everyone involved. It's not like a head can think , I know lets set up a marquee on the sports field, just not allowed, all has to go through the local education authority. Additionally where do we magic up these extra teachers if we split everything in half, like the Nightingales the resources are just not there any more.

We already don't have enough teachers and now we have society needing schools to not just be there for education but as a childcare service, kids dropped off at 7.45am and collected at 6pm every day so parents can work to afford everything they owe on, most families cannot cope with a loss of income in any way and this is leading to more support needed from others so they can work longer hours.

The reality is for some school is not as much about education but childcare too and the current situation has shown this warts and all.
		
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I rather guessed as much.  Sounds like there wasn't a lot of support for the school's governance/head from those in 'higher authority' who could have enabled/funded the school's ideas of what more might be needed were to we to get to where we are today.  

But as you say - pretty much the same for for the Nightingales - though at least they did get built - most likely because the government (and NHS) needed them to be built I suppose. 

And as far as having a top level strategy defined and agreed well in advance for student assessment in the event that exams could not go ahead as planned this year...hmmm.  That we have yet not heard anything definitive on it does rather speak volumes I am afraid - though thankfully I think that we'll hear today.

Anyway - more positively - my wife's aunt seemingly doing OK at the moment as she copes with covid in the care home (prayers)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Friend called me at 3am absolutely hammered having a breakdown.

Works as a Physio for the NHS and loves his job. He signed up to help people recover after operations and get them back to normality. He got thrown into help the covid ward since the start of this. He said this latest round of constantly setting up, then pulling Intubators from dead people has broken him. Not sure he can do it anymore. He was in a very bad way and I'm pretty worried.

So when you see someone on Twitter say hospitals are empty staff are having a jolly. Think of most that have been moved around and are almost at breaking point.
		
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I get the impression that many of the 'deniers' simply look at a hospital and superficially all seems calm...there is no apparent chaos and staff getting overwhelmed - it's as if they expect to see frantic activity as you might see following a major incident/accident when many are injured or killed.  But because the hospital is just getting on with treating the ill as calmly as possible - there is little or no superficial chaos apparent - and so for these folk there is no problem at the hospitals and it's all an invention.  Happened last night on Ch4 news with reporter Victoria Macdonald - a passer-bye called to her that it was all fabricated - the hospital she was reporting from (Milton Keynes) was 'empty'.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			He's a respiratory physio. Retrospectively, a shocking choice.
		
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Yes, but a really important one. Physios do a great job, but usually not directly saving lives. Now, though, they are.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			He's a respiratory physio. Retrospectively, a shocking choice.
		
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unfortunately he cannot save everyone, and rather than focus on those that he and others in the NHS could not save. He needs to look at the ones that are sat at home with there loved ones because of him and others. He needs to look at those that can walk with there children, the ones who will get to see there kids grow up and get married. The ones at are thankful and alive because of his skills. Slowly slowly the light at the end of the tunnel is becoming brighter. Above all, he needs to talk to someone. Unfortunately we don’t choose the time and place when people like him want to open up.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get the impression that many of the 'deniers' simply look at a hospital and superficially all seems calm...there is no apparent chaos and staff getting overwhelmed - it's as if they expect to see frantic activity as you might see following a major incident/accident when many are injured or killed.  But because the hospital is just getting on with treating the ill as calmly as possible - there is little or no superficial chaos apparent - and so for these folk there is no problem at the hospitals and it's all an invention.  Happened last night on Ch4 news with reporter Victoria Macdonald - a passer-bye called to her that it was all fabricated - the hospital she was reporting from (Milton Keynes) was 'empty'.
		
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Milton Keynes currently has approx 220 inpatients with Covid, there was a 10 % rise in one day earlier this week. There were 15 covid deaths reported in the hospital yesterday (combined deaths since 1st Jan), according to our daily news update.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Milton Keynes currently has approx 220 inpatients with Covid, there was a 10 % rise in one day earlier this week. There were 15 covid deaths reported in the hospital yesterday (combined deaths since 1st Jan), according to our daily news update.
		
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Aligns with what the reporter found - 10 out of 14 (ITU/ICU?) wards full of Covid patients.  Yet a passer-bye called out that the hospital was empty...yeh...


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aligns with what the reporter found - 10 out of 14 (ITU/ICU?) wards full of Covid patients.  Yet a passer-bye called out that the hospital was empty...yeh...

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Should've taken the passerby in for a tour of the Covid ward. Obviously wouldn't have needed any PPE as the wards would all have been empty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Should've taken the passerby in for a tour of the Covid ward. Obviously wouldn't have needed any PPE as the wards would all have been empty.
		
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What I said to my Mrs - they should have dragged/invited the passer-bye to don some PPE and have a look inside...

Meanwhile 1:50 of us have the virus...that's just a number - a ratio - and it seems not too bad - it seems OK - until I thought about what that actually meant in respect of transmission.  And as I was walking back from town yesterday evening with my one bag of essential shopping - I thought of my wife's aunt ill with covid - had the thought that _I _actually _could _catch this, and I could get _very _ill - and I really didn't like those thoughts one little bit.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What I said to my Mrs - they should have dragged/invited the passer-bye to don some PPE and have a look inside...
		
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That must be your Christian nature making you more compassionate than me. They wouldn't have been offered PPE by me. 👍


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2021)

Just had my first Pfizer jab so I am now immortal. Thats how it works right?


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Aligns with what the reporter found - 10 out of 14 (ITU/ICU?) wards full of Covid patients.  Yet a passer-bye called out that the hospital was empty...yeh...

Click to expand...

 I hadn't seen the news clip, just watched it as mrs wedge sent it to me earlier - she's a nurse in MK General. It's all a bit worrying really.



ColchesterFC said:



			Should've taken the passerby in for a tour of the Covid ward. Obviously wouldn't have needed any PPE as the wards would all have been empty.
		
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That was exactly my thought, take him in without his mask and get him to go into the ward and hold hands with one or more of the Covid patients. Bet he wouldn't do it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes they could. Without any difficulty. Well most certainly she could. They are far from penniless and got multiple grants first time round.  Just simply pointing out that I fear many parents will expect schools to do more than they should have to do.   If we are all going to pull together we might all have to make some quite significant sacrifices.  Am I being too judgemental - certainly yes - but we know them too well...🙄
		
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If he is a tradesman he might be halfway through a job for a disabled person putting a new shower / kitchen in.
If he stopped work now to mind the kids, that person would not have a bathroom / kitchen/ heating???
So not everything is black and white.
Some people play the system that’s true you are correct.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Just had my first Pfizer jab so I am now immortal. Thats how it works right?
		
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Mrs Wedge getting hers this PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			That must be your Christian nature making you more compassionate than me. They wouldn't have been offered PPE by me. 👍
		
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LOL - 'unfortunately'  my Christian nature means that I have to pray for that passer-bye - pray that he 'sees the light' on the virus before it sees to him...and through him infects those close to him


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			If he is a tradesman he might be halfway through a job for a disabled person putting a new shower / kitchen in.
If he stopped work now to mind the kids, that person would not have a bathroom / kitchen/ heating???
So not everything is black and white.
Some people play the system that’s true you are correct.
		
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All if this could be very true

My point was simply in support of the post where all of a sudden there were 140 children of key workers at school...when previously there were many fewer. 

I suspect that the explanation for the majority of parents is simply that they need government support if they are going to take time off work to provide home care and schooling for their children.  And maybe that includes out friends.


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## USER1999 (Jan 6, 2021)

Why not take some 'social influencers' into Covid wards. PPE up, obviously, and let them report what they see on Instagram, etc.
Too much reporting is done in the conventional news, which is read, and believed (or not), by a fairly small group. Not sure all these covid deniers really look at the BBC, or read the papers.
Bung in some Z list influences, show them the true picture, let them post some video, show some pictures, and actually do something useful for once.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All if this could be very true

My point was simply in support of the post where all of a sudden there were 140 children of key workers at school...when previously there were many fewer.

I suspect that the explanation for the majority of parents is simply that they need government support if they are going to take time off work to provide home care and schooling for their children.  And maybe that includes out friends.
		
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Yes I know where you were coming from, my daughters a teacher.
I see it as if the lad needs to work he needs to work.
We all need to pull together and not stress over other people.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 6, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Why not take some 'social influencers' into Covid wards. PPE up, obviously, and let them report what they see on Instagram, etc.
Too much reporting is done in the conventional news, which is read, and believed (or not), by a fairly small group. Not sure all these covid deniers really look at the BBC, or read the papers.
Bung in some Z list influences, show them the true picture, let them post some video, show some pictures, and actually do something useful for once.
		
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That’s a very good idea.
Maybe put one in the government PR spin machine to see what it’s really like.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Just had my first Pfizer jab so I am now immortal. Thats how it works right?
		
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You will get a super power of sorts, you just don't know which one. If was open to request too many people would ask to single putt from 6ft so they are having to keep it random. Annoyingly that could mean a non golfer gets this power and never realises. Luck of the draw.

Immortal, , some people just don't know anything............


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## Leftitshort (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What I said to my Mrs - they should have dragged/invited the passer-bye to don some PPE and have a look inside...

Meanwhile 1:50 of us have the virus...that's just a number - a ratio - and it seems not too bad - it seems OK - until I thought about what that actually meant in respect of transmission.  And as I was walking back from town yesterday evening with my one bag of essential shopping - I thought of my wife's aunt ill with covid - had the thought that _I _actually _could _catch this, and I could get _very _ill - and I really didn't like those thoughts one little bit.
		
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Or you could get it and have really mild symptoms like I did. I’m not dismissing this at all, a work colleague is really poorly currently, but if you do get this it’s not a death sentence in the majority of cases.  I think it’s important to keep some perspective.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2021)

IainP said:



*On a related note, has anyone heard from @Hobbit recently?* 😐
		
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Yes, he's OK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Why not take some 'social influencers' into Covid wards. PPE up, obviously, and let them report what they see on Instagram, etc.
Too much reporting is done in the conventional news, which is read, and believed (or not), by a fairly small group. Not sure all these covid deniers really look at the BBC, or read the papers.
Bung in some Z list influences, show them the true picture, let them post some video, show some pictures, and actually do something useful for once.
		
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The problem that the BBC have is that they have to give equal weight to the views of 'non-believers' as they have to give to that of 'believers'.  So we get the facts and explanations of scientists/epidemiologists/experts being 'balanced' by the thoughts of non-believers who base their views on something they'd read on the grannies Facebook feed - or that they'd concluded by not seeing chaos outside such as MK General (reflecting back to post #13,604)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Or you could get it and have really mild symptoms like I did. I’m not dismissing this at all, a work colleague is really poorly currently, but if you do get this it’s not a death sentence in the majority of cases.  I think it’s important to keep some perspective.
		
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Indeed - but my knowledge of that did not stop the thoughts popping into my head - as the illness suddenly was much closer to home with my wife's aunt.  Yes I can put the thoughts aside - but when the rolling rate for our council ward is 750 and 2miles in almost any direction it is well over 1000... I cannot ignore my thoughts.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 6, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Or you could get it and have really mild symptoms like I did. I’m not dismissing this at all, a work colleague is really poorly currently, but if you do get this it’s not a death sentence in the majority of cases.  I think it’s important to keep some perspective.
		
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Isn't that a bit like a reporter in WW1 taking a photo of an Army Storeman stacking blankets a mile behind the front line to portray what life is like for the Tommies,


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## spongebob59 (Jan 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Just had my first Pfizer jab so I am now immortal. Thats how it works right?
		
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You'll then into Trump 😂


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## chrisd (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The problem that the BBC have is that they have to give equal weight to the views of 'non-believers' as they have to give to that of 'believers'.  So we get the facts and explanations of scientists/epidemiologists/experts being 'balanced' by the thoughts of non-believers who base their views on something they'd read on the grannies Facebook feed - or that they'd concluded by not seeing chaos outside such as MK General (reflecting back to post #13,604)
		
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I dont see the BBC extolling the views of the flat earth society, no, they are not required to EVENLY balance arguments where one side is clearly  a VERY minor view, despite how biased the BBC has become .


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			unfortunately he cannot save everyone, and rather than focus on those that he and others in the NHS could not save. He needs to look at the ones that are sat at home with there loved ones because of him and others. He needs to look at those that can walk with there children, the ones who will get to see there kids grow up and get married. The ones at are thankful because of his skills. Slowly slowly the light at the end of the tunnel is becoming brighter. Above all, he needs to talk to someone. Unfortunately we don’t choose the time and place when people like him want to open up.
		
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There is a special mentality and attitude needed to work in an area where the patients often do badly. I remember as a late stage medical student being interested in paediatrics and oncology, but when it came to working with kids who were dying, I realised I just didn't have that mentality. 

I have nothing but admiration and respect for those who do, and who can find little or big successes amongst the bad stuff. Tell your mate he is doing a vital (literally) job and in years to come when people ask 'What did you do during the first Covid pandemic?', he can tell them he was on the front line saving lives.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Just had my first Pfizer jab so I am now immortal. Thats how it works right?
		
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Well, your 5G signal should be better ....


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 6, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Or you could get it and have really mild symptoms like I did. I’m not dismissing this at all, a work colleague is really poorly currently, but if you do get this it’s not a death sentence in the majority of cases.  I think it’s important to keep some perspective.
		
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Have the scientists explained why this is the case?
Is it still the amount of virus you inhale are exposed to or just luck.?


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## rudebhoy (Jan 6, 2021)

See Rees-Mogg broke the rules by travelling 15 miles on Sunday from his T4 home to a church in T3.

Before anyone asks, there are plenty Catholic churches in T4 close to his home, it seems he prefers the one in T3. Hardly essential travel.

And before anyone plays the "political" card, this is not a political point, it's nothing to do with Tory policy, it's all to do with those who lead us failing to lead by example which is the least we should expect.


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## chellie (Jan 6, 2021)

Apologies if this has already been posted. Only works for postcodes in England  https://digital.nhs.uk/dashboards/coronavirus-in-your-area


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Or you could get it and have really mild symptoms like I did. I’m not dismissing this at all, a work colleague is really poorly currently, but if you do get this it’s not a death sentence in the majority of cases.  I think it’s important to keep some perspective.
		
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No, it isn't a death sentence. But look at it like this. If you were told that at your age and state of health, you had a 1 in 1000 chance of getting and dying from Covid, you would probably say that you can live with those odds. 

If you got on a plane and the pilot announced that unfortunately the safety systems were down, so in the unlikely event of engine failure or a bad bird strike, the place would crash to a fiery death. He said the odds of that were about 1 in 1000. How many people would get off the plane?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Should've taken the passerby in for a tour of the Covid ward. Obviously wouldn't have needed any PPE as the wards would all have been empty.
		
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Too right. And without PPE. And without any subsequent treatment.
Too soft with these idiots.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			See Rees-Mogg broke the rules by travelling 15 miles on Sunday from his T4 home to a church in T3.

Before anyone asks, there are plenty Catholic churches in T4 close to his home, it seems he prefers the one in T3. Hardly essential travel.

And before anyone plays the "political" card, this is not a political point, it's nothing to do with Tory policy, it's all to do with those who lead us failing to lead by example which is the least we should expect.
		
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He needs a "special" sort of Church that does the old Tridentine Mass in Latin.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

chellie said:



			Apologies if this has already been posted. Only works for postcodes in England  https://digital.nhs.uk/dashboards/coronavirus-in-your-area

Click to expand...

I use this site

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/


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## backwoodsman (Jan 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Just had my first Pfizer jab so I am now immortal. Thats how it works right?
		
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And you're safe from ever being lost again, as Bill Gates will always be able to find you ..


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## rudebhoy (Jan 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			He needs a "special" sort of Church that does the old Tridentine Mass in Latin.
		
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you should have put the quotation marks around "needs" as well.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			you should have put the quotation marks around "needs" as well.
		
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Are you saying JRM is "special needs"?


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## rudebhoy (Jan 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you saying JRM is "special needs"?
		
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he is a very strange chap, but I wouldn't classify him as that.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No, it isn't a death sentence. But look at it like this. If you were told that at your age and state of health, you had a 1 in 1000 chance of getting and dying from Covid, you would probably say that you can live with those odds.

If you got on a plane and the pilot announced that unfortunately the safety systems were down, so in the unlikely event of engine failure or a bad bird strike, the place would crash to a fiery death. He said the odds of that were about 1 in 1000. How many people would get off the plane?
		
Click to expand...

I’m not belittling it at all. You could be unlucky and get some complications or you could have underlying health conditions and it become very serious very quickly. However, people getting it, albeit mildly and then recovering isn’t news. The fella I was replying to was mulling over the seriousness of the disease. Statistically, underlying health dependent, it’s a long way from a death sentence. 
I won’t compare it to the flu as I believe this to be disingenuous but it’s also not the bubonic plague.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't that a bit like a reporter in WW1 taking a photo of an Army Storeman stacking blankets a mile behind the front line to portray what life is like for the Tommies,
		
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Not really, to carry on with the war analogies.  it’s a bit like being part of a light skirmish, getting off without a wound, but recognising that the battle of the Somme was serious. The way it’s reported & the way it’s spoken about on here you would be forgiven in thinking that it’s a death sentence....it’s not.


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## Dando (Jan 6, 2021)

our test results came back negative but Mrs D has had the symptoms since Sunday/Monday. As we did the test on Saturday they recommended another test so we had a trip to the O2.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No, it isn't a death sentence. But look at it like this. If you were told that at your age and state of health, you had a 1 in 1000 chance of getting and dying from Covid, you would probably say that you can live with those odds. 

If you got on a plane and the pilot announced that unfortunately the safety systems were down, so in the unlikely event of engine failure or a bad bird strike, the place would crash to a fiery death. He said the odds of that were about 1 in 1000. How many people would get off the plane?
		
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I heard a good one other day Ethan..

If someone gave you a bag of 1000 jelly beans and said 1 of them would kill you.. you would avoid the jelly beans!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			you should have put the quotation marks around "needs" as well.
		
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That would be an insult to those who are special needs lol


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LOL - 'unfortunately'  my Christian nature means that I have to pray for that passer-bye - pray that he 'sees the light' on the virus before it sees to him...and through him infects those close to him
		
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The unfortunate result about that (non) action is that it does nothing to stop his behaviour. And, although not specified , it is certain that with such an attitude his behaviour will in no way be such as to stop the virus spread. 
He will go on behaving in such a way as will spread the virus, won't he?


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## GreiginFife (Jan 6, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			he is a very strange chap, but I wouldn't classify him as that.
		
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JRM is the kind of guy that would unplug your life support to charge his phone.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I dont see the BBC extolling the views of the flat earth society, no, they are not required to EVENLY balance arguments where one side is clearly  a VERY minor view, despite how biased the BBC has become .
		
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Good one! Common sense.


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## USER1999 (Jan 6, 2021)

My point re social media was that it doesn't matter what the BBC says, balanced or not, because it only reaches people who already use it, and a lot of hip youngsters view it as stale and old, and not relevant to them.

Social influences on the other hand, have followers in the millions.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I heard a good one other day Ethan..

If someone gave you a bag of 1000 jelly beans and said 1 of them would kill you.. you would avoid the jelly beans!
		
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Exactly. But the main thing is, if you don't HAVE to eat any of  the jelly beans.

Sometimes you *have* to take the risk with something - fair enough, 1000-1 is comfortable, a little less so if you *want to *do the something . If you're not *fussed *about it, you don't do it, do you?

That's why with this Covid thing, I don't take *unnecessary risks.*


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Not really, to carry on with the war analogies.  it’s a bit like being part of a light skirmish, getting off without a wound, but recognising that the battle of the Somme was serious. The way it’s reported & the way it’s spoken about on here you would be forgiven in thinking that it’s a death sentence....it’s not.
		
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Depends, to a very large extent, on how old you are. I suspect you are not old😀


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2021)

Not sure if this should go in the random irritation thread 

But the start of the clap for the NHS is bringing back clap for hero's 

Like it was patronising enough the first time round 

Some idiot will let of fireworks aswell


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## chrisd (Jan 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Depends, to a very large extent, on how old you are. I suspect you are not old😀
		
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Absolutely! 

I dont want to mix with people who are mixing with others when 1 in 50 have Covid and theres a much greater chance of someone I contact with, having it. In the summer I could have gone to a football game with 50,0000 spectators and stood little risk of catching the virus.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Not sure if this should go in the random irritation thread

But the start of the clap for the NHS is bringing back clap for hero's

Like it was patronising enough the first time round

Some idiot will let of fireworks aswell
		
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Judging by what I've seen the last couple of days there will be no one home to clap on their doorsteps!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

This isn't real? 1041 deaths and 62k+ notifications in last 24hrs? - that's real


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The unfortunate result about that (non) action is that it does nothing to stop his behaviour. And, although not specified , it is certain that with such an attitude his behaviour will in no way be such as to stop the virus spread.
He will go on behaving in such a way as will spread the virus, won't he?
		
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I didn't say that a wee prayer for him from me is the *only *action I might take


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Judging by what I've seen the last couple of days there will be no one home to clap on their doorsteps!
		
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It's just stupid .. key workers find it patronising

Home schoolers will be too busy trying to do the rest round the house whilst kids are in bed to notice everyone clapping for them.. apart from when the idiot at number 5 let's off fireworks and wakes the kids up

And those who buisness might fail because of this will find it great how the claps are now paying for their bills

Please just no.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I heard a good one other day Ethan..

If someone gave you a bag of 1000 jelly beans and said 1 of them would kill you.. you would avoid the jelly beans!
		
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The public perception of risk has always been weird. Familiar risks are  blithely ignored, but smaller risks associated with something new or unusual are over-reacted to.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I dont see the BBC extolling the views of the flat earth society, no, they are not required to EVENLY balance arguments where one side is clearly  a VERY minor view, despite how biased the BBC has become .
		
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The old false equivalence problem. Balance need not always be 50/50.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Not really, to carry on with the war analogies.  it’s a bit like being part of a light skirmish, getting off without a wound, but recognising that the battle of the Somme was serious. The way it’s reported & the way it’s spoken about on here you would be forgiven in thinking that it’s a death sentence....it’s not.
		
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As a little aside given talk of war...

I'm reading _Parade's End at the moment -_ written contemporaneous with the end of WW1 and the few years soon after.  Suggests that the Tommies in the trenches were pretty pragmatic about being blown to bits by shelling when they heard the _strafe _start as softening up before a German advance - or getting mown down when themselves advancing.  They could see and hear the danger but there was nowhere to go, nothing they could do.  The danger was too widespread.

What it seems was feared when in the open in the trenches was when things were quiet and unthreatening - because the Tommy knew that at any moment a sniper could have him in his sights and was in the process of pulling the trigger.  And though he knew he could just disappear down a communication trench to relative safety - that way was court martial and the firing squad.  And so it was the great fear was that instant death was possible at any moment from the silent killer...when perhaps risk was at it lowest.

I guess the former is where we just get on with things out there as best we can - and accept the risk; the latter is perhaps when we are indoors, sheltering and apparently safe.

Interestingly as well reference is made to the deadly pandemic tearing through the German trenches...worse than the UK lines - and the hesitancy over taking German prisoners given the risk of them bringing the infection to the Tommies.


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## Imurg (Jan 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's just stupid .. key workers find it patronising

Home schoolers will be too busy trying to do the rest round the house whilst kids are in bed to notice everyone clapping for them.. apart from when the idiot at number 5 let's off fireworks and wakes the kids up

And those who buisness might fail because of this will find it great how the claps are now paying for their bills

Please just no.
		
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Please No...I can hear the guy down the road practicing that bloody saxophone already...


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m not belittling it at all. You could be unlucky and get some complications or you could have underlying health conditions and it become very serious very quickly. However, people getting it, albeit mildly and then recovering isn’t news. The fella I was replying to was mulling over the seriousness of the disease. Statistically, underlying health dependent, it’s a long way from a death sentence.
I won’t compare it to the flu as I believe this to be disingenuous but it’s also not the bubonic plague.
		
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No, it isn't the bubonic plague, although most people who get that are easily treated these days. 

The emphasis on death with Covid unbalances an assessment of the harm, though. Many people get a mildly unpleasant viral illness which doesn't need medical attention, let along hospital, but a significant number get this long Covid syndrome, which has a number of potentially long lasting complications. I think we are going to see a bunch of longer term effects from the whole body inflammatory effects in some people, everything from infertility to cognitive effects to liver and kidney problems. There have been reports of high incidence of childhood onset of Type 1 Diabetes in areas with outbreaks, presumably from either immune activation or direct pancreatic damage. it is a nasty disease, much worse than seasonal flu.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Depends, to a very large extent, on how old you are. I suspect you are not old😀
		
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Yep I get that. I’m not exactly young but it’s all relative. Young compared to the average demographic at the golf club. I’m not flat earther, but there is a balance to be struck between living in absolute fear and realising that statistically you’ll probably be ok. In the balance it’s better to stay safe, wear masks, social distance and probably lockdown, I get that. But there should be a counter narrative to the death, doom and end of the world scenarios. That’s just not healthy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's just stupid .. key workers find it patronising

Home schoolers will be too busy trying to do the rest round the house whilst kids are in bed to notice everyone clapping for them.. apart from when the idiot at number 5 let's off fireworks and wakes the kids up

And those who buisness might fail because of this will find it great how the claps are now paying for their bills

Please just no.
		
Click to expand...

It was nice and appreciated at first - and indeed for a quite a while as the initial battle was fought against an unknown enemy.  But this has now gone on too long with much of the blame being placed in the lap of the public - so for the public to applaud now - well many health and care workers might well not be quite so appreciative.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was nice and appreciated at first - and indeed for a quite a while as the initial battle was fought against an unknown enemy.  But this has now gone on too long with much of the blame being placed in the lap of the public - so for the public to applaud now - well many health and care workers might well not be quite so appreciative.
		
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In march it was nice 

It was well intentioned

However it got political 

Then the creater said it had run it course I can't believe she thinks it's a good idea to bring it back!!!!!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Please No...I can hear the guy down the road practicing that bloody saxophone already...

Click to expand...

A great sadness in our road is the elderly Irish gentleman (an ex-Army Bandsman) who, sitting on his doorstep, gave the street a short clarinet and fiddle 'concert' for the heath workers a few sunny evenings through last spring/summer during lockdown.  The lovely chap died on the 23rd December after just a two week illness.  A small group of us from the road  - fully socially distanced and masked up - stood in the street outside his home and sang Danny Boy and a few carols on Christmas Eve for his wife and visiting two daughters.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you saying JRM is "special needs"?
		
Click to expand...

Ask his Nanny.


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## road2ruin (Jan 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			In march it was nice

It was well intentioned

However it got political

Then the creater said it had run it course I can't believe she thinks it's a good idea to bring it back!!!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

It wasn’t that it just got political it was the feeling that you should be doing it because the rest of your road is. We moved to a new home 6 weeks ago and my wife is already saying we’ll have to get involved if the road does otherwise we’ll be black marked before we’ve even met everyone!! 

In terms of the creator I can only assume she wanted a second 15 minutes of fame.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 6, 2021)

I'm neither standing outside freezing my bits off, NE in January 😱, nor letting the heat out of the house. 

It ran its course, let it be.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2021)

Very powerful piece from University College in London on BBC news. Echoes very much what I've been seeing and fear a lot of our nurses are going to burn out soon. It isn't just those of course and doctors are struggling, both those on rotation, for whom it's a baptism of fire and the senior doctors and consultants. We are lucky and our matron and management are being very proactive and the trust board are ensuring ICU is a priority. We are at the point of further escalation into theatres tomorrow.


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## 4LEX (Jan 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Very powerful piece from University College in London on BBC news. Echoes very much what I've been seeing and fear a lot of our nurses are going to burn out soon. It isn't just those of course and doctors are struggling, both those on rotation, for whom it's a baptism of fire and the senior doctors and consultants. We are lucky and our matron and management are being very proactive and the trust board are ensuring ICU is a priority. We are at the point of further escalation into theatres tomorrow.
		
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It's heartbreaking mate. It was so predictable and nothing was done to help them. If anything, the opposite. These people have been taken for granted, performed miracles and are now back in the firing line.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2021)

4LEX said:



			It's heartbreaking mate. It was so predictable and nothing was done to help them. If anything, the opposite. These people have been taken for granted, performed miracles and are now back in the firing line.
		
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I agree. When you see nurses in tears at 7.15 in the morning after a tough night shift it does nothing to fire your own motivation for the day. All you can do is listen, empathise and remind them we are an ICU family and will share any highs and lows collectively. Some of these poor young nurses have only been on the unit since November and had a matter of weeks to get up to speed with how it all works before this hit. You can see them drowning. Senior nurses are doing what they can, when they can and as much support as we can offer is there but even the senior staff are clinical and working flat out. No idea what the answer is or when this will end. All we can do is stand together


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## 4LEX (Jan 6, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree. When you see nurses in tears at 7.15 in the morning after a tough night shift it does nothing to fire your own motivation for the day. All you can do is listen, empathise and remind them we are an ICU family and will share any highs and lows collectively. Some of these poor young nurses have only been on the unit since November and had a matter of weeks to get up to speed with how it all works before this hit. You can see them drowning. Senior nurses are doing what they can, when they can and as much support as we can offer is there but even the senior staff are clinical and working flat out. No idea what the answer is or when this will end. All we can do is stand together
		
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The ICU at Royal Berks has saved the life of a family member twice and I'll be forever grateful. So much respect to everyone in the hospital, especially ICU. When this eases I'll shout you a game


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 7, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Abject failure


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346916272991313922

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Or "World beating" depending on the spin you want to put on it. 😀


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## IainP (Jan 7, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Abject failure


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346916272991313922

Click to expand...

Does it explain what they mean by it and the data?
Worldometer has a cases per million population which puts UK 27th worst (not good, but not worst)


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## SatchFan (Jan 7, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Abject failure


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346916272991313922

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Maybe we just have the most ignorant and belligerent population in the world.


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## Imurg (Jan 7, 2021)

In previous lockdowns my pupils have been able to drive their own car, getting private practice, with a member of their household sitting in as part of an essential trip li,e going to the shops. Keeps their hand in and was important if they had a test coming up soon after lockdown ended. 
Well that's been stopped now.
DVSA have taken the private practice part off the guidance so if the kids do go out with Mum or Dad they could get pulled over by the Rozzers 
Got tests late Feb/early Mar and they're not going to be ready if we're out by then.
A rearranged test will put them to June or July


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			Maybe we just have the most ignorant and belligerent population in the world.
		
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We are not stupid and are capable of understanding the nub of the most complex of matters.  That many do not seem incapable of applying that understanding...


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## SatchFan (Jan 7, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are not stupid and are capable of understanding the nub of the most complex of matters.  That many do not seem incapable of applying that understanding...
		
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Must admit I should have left off the ignorant bit as only an extreme hermit would be unaware of what's going on. Unfortunately, there are still so many making selfish choices simply because it doesn't suit them.


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## DRW (Jan 7, 2021)

People really need to stop clicking on the such articles and headings...…and then not take them with a large pinch of salt

My comments :-

1) There is always some country that is currently infected the most. Goodness knows which country actually tops that chart at this moment in time or even todate....
2) When using case data it isn't comparable as testing regimes around the world are vastly different 

Why do people moan about the media and then feed it....


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## SaintHacker (Jan 7, 2021)

Of course they wont report that on the first day of vaccinations we did 130k. France managed 516. Not k, just 516. But the media can't report positivity...


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## Ethan (Jan 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Of course they wont report that on the first day of vaccinations we did 130k. France managed 516. Not k, just 516. But the media can't report positivity...

Click to expand...

Are you saying the media didn't report the first day of vaccs? What media are you looking at? It was all over the media, Sky almost set up a special channel Sky Vaccinations.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2021)

Tomorrow I am a free man.  Anyway, daughter came out of isolation with her partner Monday, Tuesday was his birthday.The day we went into lockdown. Last night was his first shift back being a copper. 3 hours into his shift he is scrapping on the floor with a bladdered guy who is assaulting his wife. In the car heading Back to the nick he says” well a least you will have 10 days off work now”. “Eh what you on about “. His wife has Covid, he is waiting for his results. The call handler forgot to ask if anyone has Covid at the address. He is now off work for another 10 days and is bloody livid.

That aside, tonight’s question time line up looks interesting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm thinking that the one major positive for us personally coming out of the 'clap for the NHS...' was that we actually got to know our neighbours in the street - when to that point we had lost touch as there had been so many changes over the years.  That created a strong community spirit in our road that has been hugely beneficial to keeping us all going since March and through the dark months (literally and figuratively).


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Of course they wont report that on the first day of vaccinations we did 130k. France managed 516. Not k, just 516. But the media can't report positivity...

Click to expand...

The BBC did report this about France.
Something about they have to ask every person 5 days ahead of vaccination if they want it or not.
What a stupid system.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm thinking that the one major positive for us personally coming out of the 'clap for the NHS...' was that we actually got to know our neighbours in the street - when to that point we had lost touch as there had been so many changes over the years.  That created a strong community spirit in our road that has been hugely beneficial to keeping us all going since March and through the dark months (literally and figuratively).
		
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I agree.
If you want to do it great if you don’t then don’t that’s also fine.
Don’t do it just because the neighbours are.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 7, 2021)

The CEO of the NHS on the covid conference just spot on. Well said to the deniers 

Can only hope he get through to some


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## chrisd (Jan 7, 2021)

As a 68 year old I am a little concerned that the over 60 and 65 year olds seem not to be mentioned in the daily briefings for the roll out of the vaccine, everything seems to stop at 70 when age is the driving factor


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## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The CEO of the NHS on the covid conference just spot on. Well said to the deniers

Can only hope he get through to some
		
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He did seem a tad angry, trouble is, this idiots won’t be watching news programs, they will be watching the Disney channel.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 7, 2021)

So we are initiating the next trust wide escalation. Around 250 covid patients and nearly 90 ventilated with 26 in ICU. Forecast is for the peak to hit in another 3-4 weeks so the worse is yet to come. Not sure how some of the nursing and medical staff will cope.


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2021)

chrisd said:



			As a 68 year old I am a little concerned that the over 60 and 65 year olds seem not to be mentioned in the daily briefings for the roll out of the vaccine, everything seems to stop at 70 when age is the driving factor
		
Click to expand...

Welcome to group 6

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...hy-you-have-to-wait-for-your-covid-19-vaccine


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## chrisd (Jan 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Welcome to group 6

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...hy-you-have-to-wait-for-your-covid-19-vaccine

Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff, just hope that the vaccine arrives quicker than predicted and that you stay well too


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Jan 7, 2021)

chrisd said:



			As a 68 year old I am a little concerned that the over 60 and 65 year olds seem not to be mentioned in the daily briefings for the roll out of the vaccine, everything seems to stop at 70 when age is the driving factor
		
Click to expand...

I think he just doesn't want to be too specific about dates so far ahead.
If supplies of vaccine don't stall, I think the news each day will get better.
Whatever folks think about politicians abilities, I'm made optimistic by the Army's involvement. As the brigadier said, difficult logistics is their specialty.😀
Once the ball gets rolling , going from one group to the next could well be seamless


----------



## chrisd (Jan 7, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I think he just doesn't want to be too specific about dates so far ahead.
If supplies of vaccine don't stall, I think the news each day will get better.
Whatever folks think about politicians abilities, I'm made optimistic by the Army's involvement. As the brigadier said, difficult logistics is their specialty.😀
Once the ball gets rolling , going from one group to the next could well be seamless
		
Click to expand...

I do agree but my golfing partners are doctors and they are telling me how the vaccine is NOT available and the even 80 year olds haven't had a sniff of a vaccination yet


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Thanks Jeff, just hope that the vaccine arrives quicker than predicted and that you stay well too
		
Click to expand...

Hope so as well, France in April with our normal round at Ashford on the way.

Must admit though, if I was only allowed to choose between the jab and an angioplasty you can have my jab.


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I do agree but my golfing partners are doctors and they are telling me how the vaccine is NOT available and the even 80 year olds haven't had a sniff of a vaccination yet
		
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MIL down in River hasn’t heard anything yet, she’s 85.


----------



## chrisd (Jan 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Hope so as well, France in April with our normal round at Ashford on the way.

Must admit though, if I was only allowed to choose between the jab and an angioplasty you can have my jab.
		
Click to expand...

Dont worry, if I'm behind you in the queue you might feel a sharp object wacking you on the head from behind 😁😁


----------



## rudebhoy (Jan 7, 2021)

Just on the local news, people have been refusing the Pfizer vaccine as they want "an English vaccine" instead.

Honestly, what is up with some people?


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I think he just doesn't want to be too specific about dates so far ahead.
If supplies of vaccine don't stall, I think the news each day will get better.
Whatever folks think about politicians abilities, I'm made optimistic by the Army's involvement. As the brigadier said, difficult logistics is their specialty.😀
Once the ball gets rolling , going from one group to the next could well be seamless
		
Click to expand...

Tony Blair said at the beginning of the week that when he was PM, despite thinking he was the most powerful person in the UK, if he asked for something to be done it frequently wasn't. If he asked the military to do it it was done the next day. He was keen on involving the military as much as possible for their organisational skills.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Just on the local news, people have been refusing the Pfizer vaccine as they want "an English vaccine" instead.

Honestly, what is up with some people?
		
Click to expand...

They read too much on Facebook.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Tony Blair said at the beginning of the week that when he was PM, despite thinking he was the most powerful person in the UK, if he asked for something to be done it frequently wasn't. If he asked the military to do it it was done the next day. He was keen on involving the military as much as possible for their organisational skills.
		
Click to expand...

They do not like it up em 😉


----------



## BiMGuy (Jan 7, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Just on the local news, people have been refusing the Pfizer vaccine as they want "an English vaccine" instead.

Honestly, what is up with some people?
		
Click to expand...

If that is true they shouldn't get any vaccine or medical treatment from the NHS ever again.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jan 7, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Just on the local news, people have been refusing the Pfizer vaccine as they want "an English vaccine" instead.

Honestly, what is up with some people?
		
Click to expand...

I'd prefer the Oxford vaccine for a few reasons none are fact it's English

Cost £3 each not £10 or £20
Easy to store
Results for 1 dose without the second more documented 

I won't turn down any, jab it in

But I'd prefer Oxford


----------



## pauljames87 (Jan 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			They read too much on Facebook.
		
Click to expand...

The age group involved won't be massive Facebook users


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## BiMGuy (Jan 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The age group involved won't be massive Facebook users
		
Click to expand...

Nope. More like the Daily Mail


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## pauljames87 (Jan 7, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Nope. More like the Daily Mail
		
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The second worst paper in Britain


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The second worst paper in Britain
		
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Is there a good one now?


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So we are initiating the next trust wide escalation. Around 250 covid patients and nearly 90 ventilated with 26 in ICU. Forecast is for the peak to hit in another 3-4 weeks so the worse is yet to come. Not sure how some of the nursing and medical staff will cope.
		
Click to expand...

Thoughts are with you over the next couple of months Homer. Easy for me to say but pace yourself. You are still in a very long marathon. I mentioned a month ago I saw next door neighbour who is an ICU nurse who has had Covid. She looked knackered Bless her and the rest.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is there a good one now?
		
Click to expand...

Andrex 👍


----------



## Beedee (Jan 7, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Just on the local news, people have been refusing the Pfizer vaccine as they want "an English vaccine" instead.

Honestly, what is up with some people?
		
Click to expand...

Make it easy for them.  You take what you're offered or 10 gets added to your priority group number.  Any group 1-5 don't want their's - I'll happily take it.


----------



## chrisd (Jan 7, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			MIL down in River hasn’t heard anything yet, she’s 85.
		
Click to expand...

There us no vaccine in Folkestone or Dover yet.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 7, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Just on the local news, people have been refusing the Pfizer vaccine as they want "an English vaccine" instead.

Honestly, what is up with some people?
		
Click to expand...

"No problem, call back after we have done everybody else. Try this time next year". By then it'll be knock off Sputnik. "Oh, and you know the Astra part of Astra-Zeneca refers to the Swedish part of the company"


----------



## Ethan (Jan 7, 2021)

chrisd said:



			As a 68 year old I am a little concerned that the over 60 and 65 year olds seem not to be mentioned in the daily briefings for the roll out of the vaccine, everything seems to stop at 70 when age is the driving factor
		
Click to expand...

The rollout will continue after the 70+, so the faster they get jabbed, the faster you get jabbed too.


----------



## road2ruin (Jan 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			"No problem, call back after we have done everybody else. Try this time next year". By then it'll be knock off Sputnik. "Oh, and you know the Astra part of Astra-Zeneca refers to the Swedish part of the company"
		
Click to expand...

Agree. You are more than welcome to turn down your spot in the Pfizer queue however you join the back of the Astra one and you’ll be done when your number is called.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd prefer the Oxford vaccine for a few reasons none are fact it's English

Cost £3 each not £10 or £20
Easy to store
Results for 1 dose without the second more documented

I won't turn down any, jab it in

But I'd prefer Oxford
		
Click to expand...

I'd prefer Pfizer. (or Moderna, easier to store), same mechanism of action as each other. Better first shot effect, no risk of immune reactions against the adenovirus. Not that either of us will have a choice. The storage isn't your problem. If you are offered it, it has been stored just fine.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jan 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I'd prefer Pfizer. (or Moderna, easier to store), same mechanism of action as each other. Better first shot effect, no risk of immune reactions against the adenovirus. Not that either of us will have a choice. The storage isn't your problem. If you are offered it, it has been stored just fine.
		
Click to expand...

Had the Pfizer yesterday. Boy my arm has been sore today but small price to pay


----------



## pauljames87 (Jan 7, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had the Pfizer yesterday. Boy my arm has been sore today but small price to pay
		
Click to expand...

Good job golf is suspended

Glad you had yours

Keep up the fantastic work homer


----------



## chrisd (Jan 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The rollout will continue after the 70+, so the faster they get jabbed, the faster you get jabbed too.
		
Click to expand...

And after the clinically vulnerable.......... I have no problem waiting my turn 👍


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347200811303055364


----------



## Stuart_C (Jan 7, 2021)

My tart works in the radiology department scanning COVID patients, she’s getting her vaccination in work tomorrow thankfully.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jan 7, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			My tart works in the radiology department scanning COVID patients, she’s getting her vaccination in work tomorrow thankfully.
		
Click to expand...

Good news for your family

Let's keep the good news rolling 

On the worried slightly side the kids pre school closed. Parent tested positive kid went in today (looks like they went to the local walk in centre on way to pick up) so now the wife is worried ofc 

The child will be tested and then pre school will open Monday if negative if not it's 10 days for them all to be off


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			My tart works in the radiology department scanning COVID patients, she’s getting her vaccination in work tomorrow thankfully.
		
Click to expand...

My tart 😳🤔 is she from Manchester 😁

hmmm Manchester tart.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Jan 7, 2021)

The Mrs got her vaccination today.
She’s had a few scares whilst working around COVID patients so that’s good news.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Jan 7, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			My tart 😳🤔 is she from Manchester 😁

hmmm Manchester tart.
		
Click to expand...

“My tart” does sound like something a 12 year old chav would say when trying to give it the big en in front his mates.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 7, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			My tart 😳🤔 is she from Manchester 😁

hmmm Manchester tart.
		
Click to expand...

Definitely not Tashy, it’s a term of endearment only used to enhance my online persona, obviously 🙄😉


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## Tashyboy (Jan 7, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			Definitely not Tashy, it’s a term of endearment only used to enhance my online persona, obviously 🙄😉
		
Click to expand...

Aaaaahhh Tart and “me duck” terms of endearment 👍😘


----------



## AliMc (Jan 7, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			My tart works in the radiology department scanning COVID patients, she’s getting her vaccination in work tomorrow thankfully.
		
Click to expand...

My wife works in the pharmacy in the hospital where we live, she had hers today along with two others from the pharmacy


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## Stuart_C (Jan 7, 2021)

AliMc said:



			My wife works in the pharmacy in the hospital where we live, she had hers today along with two others from the pharmacy
		
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Good stuff, its great knowing ALL staff at all our hospitals are being vaccinated aswell as having access to testing etc.

She has a few issues now after we both had Covid back in October, I had very mild symptoms but she had a real severe bout of it.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Jan 7, 2021)

One of our office staff is off on maternity leave, her youngest (about 6 months) has been poorly & has tested positive for covid today.  Not good.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had the Pfizer yesterday. Boy my arm has been sore today but small price to pay
		
Click to expand...

Plenty of reports that the short term reaction to the second one is a bit stronger, presumably because you have already activated your immune system so the spike protein is recognised more aggressively second time round.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			"No problem, call back after we have done everybody else. Try this time next year". By then it'll be knock off Sputnik. "Oh, and you know the Astra part of Astra-Zeneca refers to the Swedish part of the company"
		
Click to expand...

Not only that but is all the Astra Zeneca vaccine being produced in the UK?

I thought that I heard that at least some is being manufactured overseas.


----------



## Whereditgo (Jan 8, 2021)

Mum gets her first jab tomorrow and my partner who works in oncology gets hers a week on Monday


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jan 8, 2021)

I'm getting a bit fed up with different union reps claiming their members should be moved up the queue to get the vaccine because "of their importance to society".


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Of course they wont report that on the first day of vaccinations we did 130k. France managed 516. Not k, just 516. But the media can't report positivity...

Click to expand...

Bad news always sells much faster than good news. The UK press are always in a race to the bottom with that one.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Just on the local news, people have been refusing the Pfizer vaccine as they want "an English vaccine" instead.

Honestly, what is up with some people?
		
Click to expand...

Certain folk I know call them the Swedish, Cambridge [Mass], Moscow and German/Turkish vaccines for a bit of fun. 
What on earth has happened to the NE English folk. they used to be quite sensible.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'm getting a bit fed up with different union reps".
		
Click to expand...

This was all that was needed!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Aaaaahhh Tart and “me duck” terms of endearment 👍😘
		
Click to expand...

Hen still used in some sections of Scotland.

Always have a laugh at my Mrs being asked at the butchers shortly after moving to Scotland.......would yee like a poke [bag] hen.


----------



## chrisd (Jan 8, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Not only that but is all the Astra Zeneca vaccine being produced in the UK?

I thought that I heard that at least some is being manufactured overseas.
		
Click to expand...

My friend tells me that millions of doses are being made in India and that they plan to ship some to the UK.


----------



## USER1999 (Jan 8, 2021)

My elderly Aunt in Bristol has had both the first and second dose. She lives on her own, but is quite frail. At least her daughter will be able to visit now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2021)

chrisd said:



			My friend tells me that millions of doses are being made in India and that they plan to ship some to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

There is an interesting story to this. An Indian multi business owner took a gamble and started to product this vaccine well before approval. He has been stockpiling for quite some time. Had it been rejected it would have all had to be binned but he realised the importance of it and also the scale required to vaccinate everyone in India. He moved all production over to this product and ploughed on. There was a news piece on the BBC about him, it may be knocking around somewhere still. Thankfully a risk that has paid off.


----------



## bobmac (Jan 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is an interesting story to this. An Indian multi business owner took a gamble and started to product this vaccine well before approval. He has been stockpiling for quite some time. Had it been rejected it would have all had to be binned but he realised the importance of it and also the scale required to vaccinate everyone in India. He moved all production over to this product and ploughed on. There was a news piece on the BBC about him, it may be knocking around somewhere still. Thankfully a risk that has paid off.
		
Click to expand...

If it's the same place I've read about, it's also the world's largest vaccine manufacturer


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If it's the same place I've read about, it's also the world's largest vaccine manufacturer
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure you are right. It was a few weeks ago so my memory of the detail is a little hazy. The owner came across very well, it was a hell of a set up.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Not only that but is all the Astra Zeneca vaccine being produced in the UK?

I thought that I heard that at least some is being manufactured overseas.
		
Click to expand...

I think early batches are made in Germany or Holland but production will ramp up in the UK shortly.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

chrisd said:



			My friend tells me that millions of doses are being made in India and that they plan to ship some to the UK.
		
Click to expand...

The Serum Institute of India is making their own version, through a collaboration with AZ, but I don't think that will be imported here unless we are in diffs.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think early batches are made in Germany or Holland but production will ramp up in the UK shortly.
		
Click to expand...

Presumably the idiot declining the Pfizer will also not be willing to accept any AZ that's  manufactured in either of those countries 🙄


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'm getting a bit fed up with different union reps claiming their members should be moved up the queue to get the vaccine because "of their importance to society".
		
Click to expand...

Are we not being told continuously that the education of our children is the most important thing that a society can provide and ensure?  And we are told that that is why decisions on schooling and school closure have been, and continue to be, left to the very last minute.  Well that's what I think I've been hearing - though of course I might simply not be fully understanding a Yorkshire accent. You get my drift as I try to avoid being political as I would be if I personalised my observation.

And so - if education is society's most important responsibility then what the teaching union leaders are saying is indeed 100% consistent.


----------



## AmandaJR (Jan 8, 2021)

Just had notification that our local surgeries have formed a hub and hope to start vaccinating in 2-3 weeks. Can't help but wonder why it's taken them so long.


----------



## arnieboy (Jan 8, 2021)

There is a vaccination centre in our local shopping centre that has been jabbing since before Christmas.  Currently operating three days a week dependent on vaccine availability. A steady stream of patients today.


----------



## Jamesbrown (Jan 8, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I'm getting a bit fed up with different union reps claiming their members should be moved up the queue to get the vaccine because "of their importance to society".
		
Click to expand...

Can’t be that important if the I’m assuming you mean teachers if the kids are at home. We could replace teachers with artificial intelligence and just a minder in the class room. 
Sold themselves out of a job there really.


----------



## NearHull (Jan 8, 2021)

The stated Vac policy is now one jab until 12 weeks are up and then receive the second ( I think).  Why are some people receiving a second jab - is it Admin lagging behind policy or renegade practitioners?


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2021)

NearHull said:



			The stated Vac policy is now one jab until 12 weeks are up and then receive the second ( I think).  Why are some people receiving a second jab - is it Admin lagging behind policy or renegade practitioners?
		
Click to expand...

I think those who already had appts for the second jab, before the policy was changed, are been given it as arranged. For those where the appt had not been given for the 2nd, it will be 12 weeks.

That is my understanding but happy to be corrected


----------



## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Presumably the idiot declining the Pfizer will also not be willing to accept any AZ that's  manufactured in either of those countries 🙄
		
Click to expand...

Probably, and I don't think anyone at the vacc centres or GP should waste valuable time trying to persuade them.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think those who already had appts for the second jab, before the policy was changed, are been given it as arranged. For those where the appt had not been given for the 2nd, it will be 12 weeks.

That is my understanding but happy to be corrected
		
Click to expand...

It varies. Some NHS places are giving at 3 weeks, others 12 weeks, and some in between. Likewise GPs, some have decided to honour original 2nd vacc appointments, others to delay.


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2021)

Reading posts on here it seems the vaccination order of March seems to have gone out the window already. Race to the top in full flow.
Gloucester NHS trust claiming they will have completed the 50’s and over by the end of February according to BBC Breakfast this morning.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Reading posts on here it seems the vaccination order of March seems to have gone out the window already. Race to the top in full flow.
Gloucester NHS trust claiming they will have completed the 50’s and over by the end of February according to BBC Breakfast this morning.
		
Click to expand...

Good on them. A bit of good old competition might help, spur management on. Daft but possibly true.

I'm now very envious of those living in that part of the country.


----------



## chrisd (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are we not being told continuously that the education of our children is the most important thing that a society can provide and ensure?  And we are told that that is why decisions on schooling and school closure have been, and continue to be, left to the very last minute.  Well that's what I think I've been hearing - though of course I might simply not be fully understanding a Yorkshire accent. You get my drift as I try to avoid being political as I would be if I personalised my observation.

And so - if education is society's most important responsibility then what the teaching union leaders are saying is indeed 100% consistent.
		
Click to expand...

I'd have thought that saving the lives of the MOST vulnerable is the highest priority of all at the current moment!


----------



## anotherdouble (Jan 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Reading posts on here it seems the vaccination order of March seems to have gone out the window already. Race to the top in full flow.
Gloucester NHS trust claiming they will have completed the 50’s and over by the end of February according to BBC Breakfast this morning.
		
Click to expand...

I have said to the wife that lockdown will stay until this level has been jabbed


----------



## ScienceBoy (Jan 8, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Looks like we must consider distance when choosing where to exercise.

I will scrap my plans to drive to a local woodland this weekend, even cycling there seems out.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are we not being told continuously that the education of our children is the most important thing that a society can provide and ensure?  And we are told that that is why decisions on schooling and school closure have been, and continue to be, left to the very last minute.  Well that's what I think I've been hearing - though of course I might simply not be fully understanding a Yorkshire accent. You get my drift as I try to avoid being political as I would be if I personalised my observation.

And so - if education is society's most important responsibility then what the teaching union leaders are saying is indeed 100% consistent.
		
Click to expand...

You know very well that your first sentence is , strictly speaking, incorrect. Survival of the nation etc is the first requirement .What is said and agreed is that children's education is a vital part of society and is very important, but like all "priorities ", they may and should change depending on the (fluid) situation a Country finds itself in.
I believe it has been a battle from the start to try to keep education going as much as is possible, and , yes, there have been various opinions both inside and outside government as to what extent.
Now, however, the virus is overwhelming the NHS because of the extremely large numbers of very sick Covid patients. Almost all of these patients are the elderly and vulnerable. The priority is to reduce that, or at the very least, prevent those numbers increasing.
The best ( maybe only realistic ) chance of that is to vaccinate the parts of the population from whom those very sick patients are coming.
So, though it would be desirable for teachers to be vaccinated quickly, it seems the priorities as now stated are correct for the present dire situation.
The teachers unions should recognise this, but like all too many factions , it seems these factions still think their function is to promote their interests at all times regardless of the overall situation.
Any responsible government does not have that luxury.


----------



## Imurg (Jan 8, 2021)

Moderna has been approved for use in the UK


----------



## bobmac (Jan 8, 2021)

I keep hearing you can't close all the schools because the kids will fall behind.
Who are the kids going to fall behind?


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Good on them. A bit of good old competition might help, spur management on. Daft but possibly true.

I'm now very envious of those living in that part of the country.
		
Click to expand...

They are either able to secure more doses or better organised. If it’s the doses then we are in a post code lottery. I know our major vaccination centre wasn’t even open Wednesday.


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 8, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Moderna has been approved for use in the UK
		
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Not available till the spring according to the news.


----------



## IainP (Jan 8, 2021)

ScienceBoy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Looks like we must consider distance when choosing where to exercise.

I will scrap my plans to drive to a local woodland this weekend, even cycling there seems out.
		
Click to expand...

Our local reservoir closed on the 3rd citing too many people not distancing and creating incidents


----------



## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I keep hearing you can't close all the schools because the kids will fall behind.
Who are the kids going to fall behind?
		
Click to expand...

Kids that have either had an education, or those still getting one. 
Not particularly difficult to comprehend.


----------



## rudebhoy (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I keep hearing you can't close all the schools because the kids will fall behind.
Who are the kids going to fall behind?
		
Click to expand...

exactly. it's much more to do with providing free childcare for key workers so they can keep working. Which is fine, but just come out and say that's what you are doing.


----------



## rudebhoy (Jan 8, 2021)

ScienceBoy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

*Looks like we must consider distance when choosing where to exercise.*

I will scrap my plans to drive to a local woodland this weekend, even cycling there seems out.
		
Click to expand...

what if you are testing your eyesight?


----------



## pauljames87 (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I keep hearing you can't close all the schools because the kids will fall behind.
Who are the kids going to fall behind?
		
Click to expand...

Fall behind kids who parents can provide very good home education 

If young kids they will litterally regress and have poor social skills


----------



## NearHull (Jan 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It varies. Some NHS places are giving at 3 weeks, others 12 weeks, and some in between. Likewise GPs, some have decided to honour original 2nd vacc appointments, others to delay.
		
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Not the cohesive deployment of a National policy that I would have expected.


----------



## Dando (Jan 8, 2021)

Mrs D's second test came back negative but she feels awful - cough, aching, cant get warm and a tight chest so she spoke to her doctor who diagnosed..... Covid!

so another 10 days of isolation coming up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I keep hearing you can't close all the schools because the kids will fall behind.
Who are the kids going to fall behind?
		
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The issue is that years are not being frozen. Kids are still progressing up each year but will have missed chunks of the curriculum out. For some it is the building blocks, for others it is more advanced. This years A level students for example will go through knowing less than any other previous years students. That puts them at a disadvantage against those who have gone before them, extrapolate that out across other age groups. 

If everyone had to repeat the year again it is an argument you could make, perhaps, but as it is certain kids will definitely fall behind others either in their age group or behind older ones.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Fall behind kids who parents can provide very good home education

If young kids they will litterally regress and have poor social skills
		
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I agree education is important and vital, but how do the kids who have suffered natural disasters or experienced war cope?

Children in the Balkans went as long as 4 years in some instances and some went on to run succesful lives, become Doctors, Teachers etc.

Even in a normal healthy society you’ll get kids who will get a lower standard of education compared to their peers, be that either through social standing or postcode or money.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree education is important and vital, but how do the kids who have suffered natural disasters or experienced war cope?

Children in the Balkans went as long as 4 years in some instances and some went on to run succesful lives, become Doctors, Teachers etc.

Even in a normal healthy society you’ll get kids who will get a lower standard of education compared to their peers, be that either through social standing or postcode or money.
		
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The key word in there is "some". 

I suspect that the vast majority would struggle. 

We are not at war though, and have the means and technology to deliver a quality education to our children. Which in my opinion should be the number 1 priority.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I agree education is important and vital, but how do the kids who have suffered natural disasters or experienced war cope?

Children in the Balkans went as long as 4 years in some instances and some went on to run succesful lives, become Doctors, Teachers etc.

Even in a normal healthy society you’ll get kids who will get a lower standard of education compared to their peers, be that either through social standing or postcode or money.
		
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Perhaps the fall back of our welfare system gives too many the belief they will be carried rather than those from other countries not having that fall back as we do and know they have to work harder to get anywhere.


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 8, 2021)

IainP said:



			Our local reservoir closed on the 3rd citing too many people not distancing and creating incidents
		
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Seems sensible, I think the rules are about right as 5 miles drive seems like a lot.

I can do the same exercise from my front door as I can at the local woods.


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## bobmac (Jan 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The issue is that years are not being frozen. Kids are still progressing up each year but will have missed chunks of the curriculum out.
		
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I know that but if ALL schools are closed then ALL kids will mss out the same chunk.




Lord Tyrion said:



			This years A level students for example will go through knowing less than any other previous years students. That puts them at a disadvantage against those who have gone before them, extrapolate that out across other age groups.
		
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I thought A levels were cancelled this year?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'd have thought that saving the lives of the MOST vulnerable is the highest priority of all at the current moment!
		
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I might well agree - but I can't comment on what a Yorkshireman of some standing and his boss tell us in respect of the critical importance of keeping schools open and how that is framing their strategy.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The key word in there is "some".

I suspect that the vast majority would struggle.

We are not at war though, and have the means and technology to deliver a quality education to our children. Which in my opinion should be the number 1 priority.
		
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Obviously we haven’t though have we? Stories on here like your own, BBC starting a programme to get people to hand in old devices to give them to those in need.
Schools on ITV arranging for “packs” to be handed out for those with no internet, large families that can’t give the kids equal time etc.

We are not in a physical bombs and bullets war, but it’s certainly a war on a worldwide common enemy.

In an ideal world we’d have the means and technology, sadly we don’t live in that ideal world, this attack has caught us unprepared and all ages are suffering, some more than most.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps the fall back of our welfare system gives too many the belief they will be carried rather than those from other countries not having that fall back as we do and know they have to work harder to get anywhere.
		
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Unfortunately that is tied to politics and can’t answer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

Mayor of London just declared major incident due to 1:30 Londoners being infected and 8000 calls a day to ambulance service when average is 4000.  Not good...


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Obviously we haven’t though have we? Stories on here like your own, BBC starting a programme to get people to hand in old devices to give them to those in need.
Schools on ITV arranging for “packs” to be handed out for those with no internet, large families that can’t give the kids equal time etc.

We are not in a physical bombs and bullets war, but it’s certainly a war on a worldwide common enemy.

In an ideal world we’d have the means and technology, sadly we don’t live in that ideal world, this attack has caught us unprepared and all ages are suffering, some more than most.
		
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We do have the means and the technology. My daughters school has proved it. 

We were unprepared 12 months ago. But we've now had sufficient time to sort this out. Some schools and teachers simply don't want to.


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## DanFST (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mayor of London just declared major incident due to 1:30 Londoners being infected and 8000 calls a day to ambulance service when average is 4000.  Not good...

Click to expand...


Can't post my views on Khan else i'll get a ticking off by the mods.

However he started the pandemic telling Londoners the tube was completely safe and focused on people calling it the "Chinese virus". It was never going to go well....


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We do have the means and the technology. My daughters school has proved it.

We were unprepared 12 months ago. But we've now had sufficient time to sort this out. Some schools and teachers simply don't want to.
		
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Simply not true, not everybody has internet for a start.

Were is the funding?

You’ll always get good and bad examples.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I know that but if ALL schools are closed then ALL kids will mss out the same chunk.




I thought A levels were cancelled this year?
		
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All schools aren’t closed and can’t close


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I might well agree - but I can't comment on what a Yorkshireman of some standing and his boss tell us in respect of the critical importance of keeping schools open and how that is framing their strategy.
		
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Call me callous if you want. But I'd much rather continue the education of millions of children. Especially the most vulnerable, over extending the lives of the elderly who may only have a few months to live anyway. Shield the vulnerable, vaccinate front line NHS, and teaching staff and let's get back on with life.


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## DanFST (Jan 8, 2021)

Why are there no tv stations for each year group, broadcasting lessons every day?



BiMGuy said:



			Call me callous if you want. But I'd much rather continue the education of millions of children. Especially the most vulnerable, over extending the lives of the elderly who may only have a few months to live anyway. Shield the vulnerable, vaccinate front line NHS, and teaching staff and let's get back on with life.
		
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At what point is it worth it tho? I spent the majority of my school days smoking ciggies and chasing girls. The only thing the later years taught me that I use in my career was how to interact with people. I haven't used algebra, science, geography or history since.


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## GB72 (Jan 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The issue is that years are not being frozen. Kids are still progressing up each year but will have missed chunks of the curriculum out. For some it is the building blocks, for others it is more advanced. This years A level students for example will go through knowing less than any other previous years students. That puts them at a disadvantage against those who have gone before them, extrapolate that out across other age groups.

If everyone had to repeat the year again it is an argument you could make, perhaps, but as it is certain kids will definitely fall behind others either in their age group or behind older ones.
		
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Actually with A level students, this could have been turned into a positive. The next stage of their education for many will be at university and there is a big culture change from being in school all day and being force fed lessons to having to change and become self motivated, self teach and research and also take lessons in a number of different formats rather than being classroom based. The current period could be used to encourage a smoother conversion to different learning styles especially without exams at the end.


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## bobmac (Jan 8, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All schools aren’t closed and can’t close
		
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I know.


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## bobmac (Jan 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Call me callous if you want. But I'd much rather continue the education of millions of children. Especially the most vulnerable, over *extending the lives of the elderly* who may only have a few months to live anyway. Shield the vulnerable, vaccinate front line NHS, and teaching staff and let's get back on with life.
		
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What age would you consider not worth saving?


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Simply not true, not everybody has internet for a start.

Were is the funding?

You’ll always get good and bad examples.
		
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Which is why those without should be in school or provided with equipment. It will be far cheaper in the long run. But many schools are basing policies on their feelings that it is unfair on the few who haven't got the Internet or a laptop at the expense of the greater number who have.
Or they haven't been told explicitly what to do by Boris.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I know that but if ALL schools are closed then ALL kids will mss out the same chunk.




I thought A levels were cancelled this year?
		
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Schools don't teach in the same order. They may do the same curriculum but they do it in different orders, different paces. Not everyone is at the same point when you stop.

What about those kids who's parents don't want them to stop and so home teach effectively? I would in their shoes. Is it fair for them to get ahead, or others be behind, through no fault of the kids.

A level and GCSE exams are cancelled, not the actual lessons. They will be judged by their teachers, not by exam results.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 8, 2021)

Why are there no tv stations for each year group, broadcasting lessons every day?

thought I heard that bbc were doing something for 3 hours a day.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Can't post my views on Khan else i'll get a ticking off by the mods.

However he started the pandemic telling Londoners the tube was completely safe and focused on people calling it the "Chinese virus". It was never going to go well....
		
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The man has the blood of a lot of transport workers, and other key staff, on his hands


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## GB72 (Jan 8, 2021)

OK, I am confused now. The R number is announced as being between 1 and 1.4. I know that is not good but, bearing in mind everything else, I expected it to be much higher and with figures worse than in April, I expected it to be up near 3 where it was estimated to be at that time.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Call me callous if you want. But I'd much rather continue the education of millions of children. Especially the most vulnerable, over extending the lives of the elderly who may only have a few months to live anyway. Shield the vulnerable, vaccinate front line NHS, and teaching staff and let's get back on with life.
		
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And should those vulnerable people be shielded (imprisoned) until they conveniently die of some other cause?

After all the virus will remain in the community indefinitely even after NHS workers and teachers have all been vaccinated.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Why are there no tv stations for each year group, broadcasting lessons every day?



At what point is it worth it tho? I spent the majority of my school days smoking ciggies and chasing girls. The only thing the later years taught me that I use in my career was how to interact with people. I haven't used algebra, science, geography or history since.
		
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I did pretty much the same at school. I was better at smoking than chasing girls though.

I left at 16 without a meaningful qualification to my name. But that didn't matter as I had the family business to walk into. Only I didn't, as it went bust 6 weeks after I left school.

It took me a long time and a lot of hard work to get back to where I needed to be and have done alright for myself since. I wouldn't however recommend my path to my kids as it was a much harder path than the majority of my friends. 

Which is why I think education is the number 1 priority. Especially for the most vulnerable kids.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			And should those vulnerable people be shielded (imprisoned) until they conveniently die of some other cause?

After all the virus will remain in the community indefinitely even after NHS workers and teachers have all been vaccinated.
		
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I didn't say that. Just there should be other priorities.


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## Imurg (Jan 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			OK, I am confused now. The R number is announced as being between 1 and 1.4. I know that is not good but, bearing in mind everything else, I expected it to be much higher and with figures worse than in April, I expected it to be up near 3 where it was estimated to be at that time.
		
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I'm with you.
With the number of cases over 50k a day for a couple of weeks I'd have been expecting 2 or even 3....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I haven't used *algebra, science, geography or history since.*

Click to expand...

I bet you use aspects of one or more of these subjects - if not them all - each and every day.  And if perchance you never studied any of them through schooling then you'd have had to do some learning of the basics of each to cope with everyday life.   I have £10 - apples cost 25p each; oranges 30p.  What combination of apples and oranges can I buy so that I can give each member of my football club a piece of fruit after training when I know that the apple/oranges preference is likely to be 1:2 .  Algebra


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I didn't say that. Just there should be other priorities.
		
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So not doing something to prevent or reduce premature deaths is preferable to slowing children's education for a few months.

The concern expressed by many parents would appear to have more to do with the inconvenience of having their childminding arrangements suspended.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I'm with you.
With the number of cases over 50k a day for a couple of weeks I'd have been expecting 2 or even 3....
		
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remember the transmission rate R will be logarithmic in nature as it produces an exponential growth - it is not a linear growth.


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## GB72 (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I bet you use aspects of one or more of these subjects - if not them all - each and every day.  And if perchance you never studied any of them through schooling then you'd have had to do some learning of the basics of each to cope with everyday life.   I have £10 - apples cost 25p each; oranges 30p.  What combination of apples and oranges can I buy so that I can give each member of my football club a piece of fruit after training when I know that the apple/oranges preference is likely to be 1:2 .  Algebra 

Click to expand...

I buy a bag of apples, a bag of oranges and cut them in bigger or smaller segments depending on demand and supply available. I have never bothered to calculate in the way you suggest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I buy a bag of apples, a bag of oranges and cut them in bigger or smaller segments depending on demand and supply available. I have never bothered to calculate in the way you suggest.
		
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But you might have to   Besides - when you pull oranges apart you'll not be letting the first few grab all the segments from the plate at the expense of all of those behind.  You might apply a limit on the number each individual can have at first and for that you'll do a little calc in your head.


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## GB72 (Jan 8, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			So not doing something to prevent or reduce premature deaths is preferable to slowing children's education for a few months.

The concern expressed by many parents would appear to have more to do with the inconvenience of having their childminding arrangements suspended.
		
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This, to me, is a very salient point. Some, not all, are just being particularly vocal because homeschooling is inconvenient to the parent rather than being of significant detriment to the child.


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## GB72 (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But you might have to 

Click to expand...

48 years into my life and I have not had to yet. In fact would tend to buy too much and share out any leftover rather than go for a precise calculation.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This, to me, is a very salient point. Some, not all, are just being particularly vocal because homeschooling is inconvenient to the parent rather than being of significant detriment to the child.
		
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I can only base this upon what some parents are saying to my son, a teacher.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 8, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			So not doing something to prevent or reduce premature deaths is preferable to slowing children's education for a few months.

The concern expressed by many parents would appear to have more to do with the inconvenience of having their childminding arrangements suspended.
		
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Nice sweeping generalisations there. 
It's not much of an inconvenience having the kids at home. In fact it's less hassle than trying to get them up and out of the door to school. 

It might be for others. Then I would say those kids are better off in school.


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## Imurg (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I bet you use aspects of one or more of these subjects - if not them all - each and every day.  And if perchance you never studied any of them through schooling then you'd have had to do some learning of the basics of each to cope with everyday life.   I have £10 - apples cost 25p each; oranges 30p.  What combination of apples and oranges can I buy so that I can give each member of my football club a piece of fruit after training when I know that the apple/oranges preference is likely to be 1:2 .  Algebra 

Click to expand...

Sorry, but without knowing how many are going to be at training I can make an accurate calculation so I'll go with Greg's method..


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Not the cohesive deployment of a National policy that I would have expected.
		
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Well, in the old days we had central command and control top-down system. Now we have a market where people have choices and some powers have been developed locally, so you get differences and local variations.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I know that but if ALL schools are closed then ALL kids will mss out the same chunk.




I thought A levels were cancelled this year?
		
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Doesn't matter of their cancelled that's just a headline 

They still have to go to uni on those results and if they don't get taught what they need they will struggle at uni


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## Imurg (Jan 8, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Yes but had you stuck in during your statistics classes you would have been able to construct a model to accurately predict how many would show up for training on a rainy Wednesday evening when Fulham v West Ham is on the telly.
		
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1 apple and 1 orange should do it then...


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## GB72 (Jan 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Doesn't matter of their cancelled that's just a headline

They still have to go to uni on those results and if they don't get taught what they need they will struggle at uni
		
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This may have changed since my uni days but this was not much of an issue. As A levels were done over a number of examining boards etc with some even being new to the subject, the first part of the course was more of an A level refresher for the parts that would be relevant going forward rather than it being a case of dropping people in at the deed end.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Are we not being told continuously that the education of our children is the most important thing that a society can provide and ensure?  And we are told that that is why decisions on schooling and school closure have been, and continue to be, left to the very last minute.  Well that's what I think I've been hearing - though of course I might simply not be fully understanding a Yorkshire accent. You get my drift as I try to avoid being political as I would be if I personalised my observation.

And so - if education is society's most important responsibility then what the teaching union leaders are saying is indeed 100% consistent.
		
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I find most of your posts have a political twist.  Maybe it’s me not understanding your Surrey accent 😂


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## SatchFan (Jan 8, 2021)

One apple plus one orange plus one cherry = small fruit salad.


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## sunshine (Jan 8, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Of course they wont report that on the first day of vaccinations we did 130k. France managed 516. Not k, just 516. But the media can't report positivity...

Click to expand...

How do you know that 130k vaccinations were done? Are you responsible for counting them, or did you read it in the media?


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## chrisd (Jan 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I buy a bag of apples, a bag of oranges and cut them in bigger or smaller segments depending on demand and supply available. I have never bothered to calculate in the way you suggest.
		
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I'd buy grapes instead and divide them , one for you, one for you ............. and eat any remaining myself 😋


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Yes but had you stuck in during your statistics classes you would have been able to construct a model to accurately predict how many would show up for training on a rainy Wednesday evening when Fulham v West Ham is on the telly.
		
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Correct.  And in your model you'd assign a level of uncertainty/certainty around your statistical estimate of the most likely number attending; and as you will probably assume a normal distribution for the numbers likely to attend you get oranges to meet the needs of the 95% probability level.  Quite sophisticated statistical estimation really - all being done in our head.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 8, 2021)

Now escalated into theatres as we continue to see numbers rising. Good job I don't have to play golf tomorrow as I'm in work


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2021)

Awful daily figures posted today, I’m getting desperate to see these figures starting to drop!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

Del_Boy said:



			I find most of your posts have a political twist.  Maybe it’s me not understanding your Surrey accent 😂
		
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Unfortunately almost everything about the coronavirus pandemic and how we are experiencing and coping with it can be deemed to have a political slant/bent/twist - but that is only because it is politicians who are (ultimately) in charge of it all.

Of late I have not noticed any comments in respect of differences of opinions as held by politicians of *different *parties - now that would certainly be political debate - though there is clearly plenty of discussion about different approaches to dealing with the greatest medical/social/economic issue the country has had to deal with in a very long time - and _that _discussion is not political.

But back to your 'criticism' of my post.  Does barely disguised criticism of what leaders of teaching unions think have a political slant?  Well I suggest that f my response to the post was deemed to have a political twist then so I suggest was the initial comment, and indeed your comment on mine.

And yes - you'd be very confused by my Surrey accent


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Call me callous if you want. But I'd much rather continue the education of millions of children. Especially the most vulnerable, over extending the lives of the elderly who may only have a few months to live anyway. Shield the vulnerable, vaccinate front line NHS, and teaching staff and let's get back on with life.
		
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You're Callous!
It's not extending people's lives who MAY have a few months to live, someone in their sixties or seventies may have twenty years to live and they should be as entitled to live them as you are.  Your comments are disgusting and you should be ashamed of your casual disregard of life.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Call me callous if you want. But I'd much rather continue the education of millions of children. Especially the most vulnerable, over extending the lives of the elderly who may only have a few months to live anyway. Shield the vulnerable, vaccinate front line NHS, and teaching staff and let's get back on with life

Ok, Callous. You are either not thinking this through too much, or you aren't understanding the information given on air and in this forum, about what happens when the NHS is overwhelmed.
*It is not only the Covid old sods who die, it is many others , young , middle aged, who have non Covid conditions which cannot then be treated effectively.*
Now, maybe you are also in favour of those also to die and get out of the way of achieving your utopia of fully healthy young Adonises to enjoy the Nation's assets😉
And with such a programme underway, you can get back on with your life as you seem confident that Covid for you will just be a cough or two of a nuisance.
Aren't you the lucky one?
		
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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I bet you use aspects of one or more of these subjects - if not them all - each and every day.  And if perchance you never studied any of them through schooling then you'd have had to do some learning of the basics of each to cope with everyday life.   I have £10 - apples cost 25p each; oranges 30p.  What combination of apples and oranges can I buy so that I can give each member of my football club a piece of fruit after training when I know that the apple/oranges preference is likely to be 1:2 .  Algebra 

Click to expand...


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I bet you use aspects of one or more of these subjects - if not them all - each and every day.  And if perchance you never studied any of them through schooling then you'd have had to do some learning of the basics of each to cope with everyday life.   I have £10 - apples cost 25p each; oranges 30p.  What combination of apples and oranges can I buy so that I can give each member of my football club a piece of fruit after training when I know that the apple/oranges preference is likely to be 1:2 .  Algebra 

Click to expand...

Is that what your Boss used with his five loaves and two fishes?😉😀


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## Mudball (Jan 8, 2021)

Mrs got the Pfizer vac yesterday..  (cuz she is frontline rather than 80s)..  process worked well, no reaction so far.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Awful daily figures posted today, I’m getting desperate to see these figures starting to drop!
		
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Today’s deaths number is one third of that for the USA. The USA has a population of 331m...

looking where we live the infections number is 998 and it’s over a 1000 almost everywhere around us - and 1750 just 2miles up the road.  very worrying...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Is that what your Boss used with his five loaves and two fishes?😉😀
		
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Nah - that was non-linear partial differentiation...🥰


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## SocketRocket (Jan 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nah - that was non-linear partial differentiation...🥰
		
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What has dx/dy=f(x) got to do with the price of fish 🙂


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not available till the spring according to the news.
		
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Ordered late. Some other places getting deliveries from next week. Should be as effective as Pfizer. Same tech in a slightly different vehicle.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 8, 2021)

118 covid cases at work this week 

Message is carry on as normal....


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## fundy (Jan 8, 2021)

saving_par said:



			118 covid cases at work this week 

Message is carry on as normal....
		
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who do you work for?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 8, 2021)

fundy said:



			who do you work for?
		
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I work at a very large Nuclear plant next to Seascale Golf Club.......


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 8, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Yes but had you stuck in during your statistics classes you would have been able to construct a model to accurately predict how many would show up for training on a rainy Wednesday evening when *Fulham v West Ham *is on the telly.
		
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Don't need a statistics class to tell you no one is going to watch that through choice


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## larmen (Jan 8, 2021)

There is some news in Germany that in 2 retirement homes a few new cases have been popping up between people that have been vaccinated in December.
We are talking about 20+ cases https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/landkreis-kronach-corona-impfung-infektion-1.5167002

Questions are raised about timings, but all had negative tests at the time of the vaccination


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What has dx/dy=f(x) got to do with the price of fish 🙂
		
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it scales well...that's the difference


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

larmen said:



			There is some news in Germany that in 2 retirement homes a few new cases have been popping up between people that have been vaccinated in December.
We are talking about 20+ cases https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/landkreis-kronach-corona-impfung-infektion-1.5167002

Questions are raised about timings, but all had negative tests at the time of the vaccination
		
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Takes about 2 weeks to kick in, so cases will still occur at the background rate till then.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 8, 2021)

larmen said:



			There is some news in Germany that in 2 retirement homes a few new cases have been popping up between people that have been vaccinated in December.
We are talking about 20+ cases https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/landkreis-kronach-corona-impfung-infektion-1.5167002

Questions are raised about timings, but all had negative tests at the time of the vaccination
		
Click to expand...


But the vaccine doesn't stop you catching it . I thought it stopped you needing hospitalisation


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## larmen (Jan 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Takes about 2 weeks to kick in, so cases will still occur at the background rate till then.
		
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Cheers. Maybe these people got too lax too soon, thought they were save and let it spread through then.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But the vaccine doesn't stop you catching it . I thought it stopped you needing hospitalisation
		
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I understand, if you are protected( I.e it's had time to take effect , like Ethan says above)!then,  like the flu vaccine, the virus enters the body but the body's antibodies reject it and you hardly know it's happened?


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But the vaccine doesn't stop you catching it . I thought it stopped you needing hospitalisation
		
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It stops most from getting symptomatic Covid, and seems to reduce severity in those who get it (after it kicks in). The question of transmissibility is unanswered and difficult to answer, but it would seem likely that if it reduces propagation of the virus in people, it must have an effect on the amount of virus available to pass on.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2021)

Just been told my daughter Lydia has tested positive...............


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## Stuart_C (Jan 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Just been told my daughter Lydia has tested positive...............


Click to expand...

Fingers crossed she’s ok and only has mild symptoms Smiffy.

Naturally, it’s a worry when one of your loved ones has it.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2021)

60 Cases in Alness a tiny village in Rosshshire and 180 in Inverness yesterday. complacency and the ignoring of rules by some, we hadn't had a case since April in the Highlands


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			Fingers crossed she’s ok and only has mild symptoms Smiffy.

Naturally, it’s a worry when one of your loved ones has it.
		
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Cheers Stuart. She seems "okay" and doesn't seem too worried about it. She's an NHS worker (Ambulance crew).
I've asked her to keep me posted. As you say, fingers crossed.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 9, 2021)

Really high here in numbers , small village and seems to have got to 112 people. Taking the average to 1100/100000 , wife’s result came back negative this morning and she has been fine since having no taste. We are staying completely in till it passes over, even if the golf course opens , I will not go out until we are a lot lower in the area.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Cheers Stuart. *She seems "okay" and doesn't seem too worried about it. *She's an NHS worker (Ambulance crew).
I've asked her to keep me posted. As you say, fingers crossed.
		
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Thats good news.

Unfortunately, it was only a matter of time I suppose with the job she does. Has she been offered the Vaccination yet?


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			Has she been offered the Vaccination yet?
		
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She had it last week!!!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			She had it last week!!!
		
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So it appears that since the vaccination, and during the 10-14  days it takes for it to take effect, she has been infected?
I think that this aspect of vaccination has to be really hard publicised so that people take extra care.
In your daughters case though, that was almost impossible due to her job.
We really should appreciate these front line workers. Apart from the physical, tiring, aspect of the job, the stress must be hard.
Hope she is soon well.


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## Ethan (Jan 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			So it appears that since the vaccination, and during the 10-14  days it takes for it to take effect, she has been infected?
I think that this aspect of vaccination has to be really hard publicised so that people take extra care.
In your daughters case though, that was almost impossible due to her job.
We really should appreciate these front line workers. Apart from the physical, tiring, aspect of the job, the stress must be hard.
Hope she is soon well.
		
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Smiffy said:



			She had it last week!!!
		
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She will get a hybrid natural/vaccine immunity then. It would be interesting to see if she has a mild case as the combined forces of her natural immune response and the vaccine reinforcements get to work together.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			She will get a hybrid natural/vaccine immunity then. It would be interesting to see if she has a mild case as the combined forces of her natural immune response and the vaccine reinforcements get to work together.
		
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When she said "don't worry Dad, I'll be okay" I commented that thousands of others had most probably said that.
She came back with "yeah, but how many of those could deadlift 130kg?"

I suppose she's got a point

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## richart (Jan 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Just been told my daughter Lydia has tested positive...............


Click to expand...

Just read this Rob. Really sorry to hear, and hope she makes a full recovery. Thinking of you all.


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2021)

richart said:



			Just read this Rob. Really sorry to hear, and hope she makes a full recovery. Thinking of you all.
		
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Thanks Rich
xxx


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## AmandaJR (Jan 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Just been told my daughter Lydia has tested positive...............


Click to expand...

Hopefully she'll make a fast recovery with only mild symptoms.


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## Golfmmad (Jan 9, 2021)

Hi Rob, sorry to hear about your daughter. I'm sure her youth, fitness and Strength, along with the vaccine will see her through.
Stay safe mate! 👍


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			Hi Rob, sorry to hear about your daughter. I'm sure her youth, fitness and Strength, along with the vaccine will see her through.
Stay safe mate! 👍
		
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Cheers mate
Much appreciated
👍👍👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Just been told my daughter Lydia has tested positive...............


Click to expand...

Not good news - fingers crossed all ok


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2021)

Starting to get a bit of cabin-fever now... 3 weeks without leaving Shirenewton.  I guess it is called being sensible! 

It has just got really serious though. Next door is so bored he is cleaning his car... never ever seen him do that.  He knocked on to borrow the a sponge!


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## Smiffy (Jan 9, 2021)

It's doing my swede in being stuck indoors. I'd love to go back to work........ or for it to be June or July. At least I could do something in the garden 🥺🥺🥺


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 9, 2021)

In the news today, there are Drs getting angry( rightfully) at people not observing this lockdown properly: some berks protesting at Clapham about lack of freedom. 
Talk of police clamping down harder on those stretching the rules.

And all the time  many are dying needlessly, and health workers at breaking point.
The selfishness of this country is becoming more apparent .
I don't think it helps for people who, however boring it is, to complain about having to stay in. It's a small price to pay in order to help those who, in every sense and circumstance, as seen on the News, are battling this virus at a much higher cost than being bored.
Keep telling yourselves that you are helping to save lives, most likely your own and your loved ones.
We are at a critical place.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			In the news today, there are Drs getting angry( rightfully) at people not observing this lockdown properly: some berks protesting at Clapham about lack of freedom.
Talk of police clamping down harder on those stretching the rules.

And all the time  many are dying needlessly, and health workers at breaking point.
The selfishness of this country is becoming more apparent .
I don't think it helps for people who, however boring it is, to complain about having to stay in. It's a small price to pay in order to help those who, in every sense and circumstance, as seen on the News, are battling this virus at a much higher cost than being bored.
Keep telling yourselves that you are helping to save lives, most likely your own and your loved ones.
We are at a critical place.
		
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Really! People are selfish because they are staying in and moaning, personally, good on them, please, please, please keep moaning while staying indoors.

Concentrate on those saying nothing and going out or the boss’s who believe they have to stay open and making people work or the lax rules that don’t have enough to infrastructure to support them.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 9, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Really! People are selfish because they are staying in and moaning, personally, good on them, please, please, please keep moaning while staying indoors.

Concentrate on those saying nothing and going out or the boss’s who believe they have to stay open and making people work or the lax rules that don’t have enough to infrastructure to support them.
		
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Your last paragraph I agree with. But don't you see that the more it is OK to moan about being bored, the more it gives the morons justification to break that boredom and go out when they shouldn't and help the virus.
Of course, it's not the intention of those that moan fir there to be that consequence, but it does fuel that justification. 
And I didn't say the moaners were the ones being selfish. If you read the post properly, the selfishness is about those I describe in my first paragraph.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Your last paragraph I agree with. But don't you see that the more it is OK to moan about being bored, the more it gives the morons justification to break that boredom and go out when they shouldn't and help the virus.
Of course, it's not the intention of those that moan fir there to be that consequence, but it does fuel that justification.
And I didn't say the moaners were the ones being selfish. If you read the post properly, the selfishness is about those I describe in my first paragraph.
		
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Maybe I miss understood, but you posted about people moaning just after a few on here had said how bored they were.

I fully understand what they are saying and have no issue with it as I don’t believe they were/are considering going out for no reason and moaning is probably no more than some venting.


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## Imurg (Jan 9, 2021)

This Pfizer vaccine must be pretty good...Mrs has just had her first shot and is more chirpy and happy than been in months...


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## Old Skier (Jan 9, 2021)

Wonder how long before the offer is taken up

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55593210


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 9, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe I miss understood, but you posted about people moaning just after a few on here had said how bored they were.

I fully understand what they are saying and have no issue with it as I don’t believe they were/are considering going out for no reason and moaning is probably no more than some venting.
		
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Ah, I can see that it looks that way. No, I'm in no way suggesting that people here are indicating that they are thinking of going out etc. 
But some out there are doing just that, almost like they should be able to get on with life
It's just that it seems everywhere now you look, the news etc, somebody is having a say about being restricted, the police being heavy handed etc;and yesterday I saw a TV report from a hospital where the staff were on the edge, despairing at the increasing numbers and the incessant deaths.
It just got to me that staying in ( unless essential to go out) is not any hardship in comparison with what some are dealing with.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			It's doing my swede in being stuck indoors. I'd love to go back to work........ or for it to be June or July. At least I could do something in the garden 🥺🥺🥺
		
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Hang in there, it's tough but it's all we can do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 9, 2021)

Our local vaccine centre opens next week - small lights at the end of the tunnel


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2021)

Me and Mrs out for a short walk around 1pm and couldn’t believe volume of traffic - it was a normal Saturday.  Loads of cars going into local Homebase, Halfords, petsRUs and council ‘tip’ - all fully open it seemed.  What’s essential about _any_ of that lot.  And where was all the traffic not going to these stores all going?  1st lockdown the roads were deserted.  Just not getting it at all.

And this in a part of the country where the rate per thousand is over 1000 - and nearby it’s 1750 - and rising almost everywhere for miles around - I fear that we are doomed if nothing is changed and so i expect a PM statement on tightening things tomorrow evening or late afternoon.


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## Old Skier (Jan 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me and Mrs out for a short walk around 1pm and couldn’t believe volume of traffic - it was a normal Saturday.  Loads of cars going into local Homebase, Halfords, petsRUs and council ‘tip’ - all fully open it seemed.  What’s essential about _any_ of that lot.  And where was all the traffic not going to these stores all going?  1st lockdown the roads were deserted.  Just not getting it at all.

And this in a part of the country where the rate per thousand is over 1000 - and nearby it’s 1750 - and rising almost everywhere for miles around - I fear that we are doomed if nothing is changed and so i expect a PM statement on tightening things tomorrow evening or late afternoon.
		
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Interesting route, don’t you have a Currys, Aldi and Top Tiles.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me and Mrs out for a short walk around 1pm and couldn’t believe volume of traffic - it was a normal Saturday.  Loads of cars going into local Homebase, Halfords, petsRUs and council ‘tip’ - all fully open it seemed.  What’s essential about _any_ of that lot.  And where was all the traffic not going to these stores all going?  1st lockdown the roads were deserted.  Just not getting it at all.

And this in a part of the country where the rate per thousand is over 1000 - and nearby it’s 1750 - and rising almost everywhere for miles around - I fear that we are doomed if nothing is changed and so i expect a PM statement on tightening things tomorrow evening or late afternoon.
		
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Id say pet shops are very essienal. You need animals to still be cared for and fed surely


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 9, 2021)

Well what a mess. Worked this morning to help with the escalation to theatres and now looking to take over more space. Numbers rising alarmingly. So many people out in Reading, normal number of cars on the road and so little social distancing. I'm getting to the point of hoping some of these people get the virus and let them reflect then if garden centres etc was worth it. Staff on today are at rock bottom and having to deal with more patients every shift


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## Reemul (Jan 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Id say pet shops are very essienal. You need animals to still be cared for and fed surely
		
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You mean you can't buy pet food for a month or 2 rather than weekly.

Again it's like an excuse but we have pets, next it will be but we have Covid...


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## chellie (Jan 9, 2021)

Reemul said:



			You mean you can't buy pet food for a month or 2 rather than weekly.

Again it's like an excuse but we have pets, next it will be but we have Covid...
		
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Some people will be living week to week though and can't afford to bulk buy.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me and Mrs out for a short walk around 1pm and couldn’t believe volume of traffic - it was a normal Saturday.  Loads of cars going into local Homebase, Halfords, petsRUs and council ‘tip’ - all fully open it seemed.  What’s essential about _any_ of that lot.  And where was all the traffic not going to these stores all going?  1st lockdown the roads were deserted.  Just not getting it at all.

And this in a part of the country where the rate per thousand is over 1000 - and nearby it’s 1750 - and rising almost everywhere for miles around - I fear that we are doomed if nothing is changed and so i expect a PM statement on tightening things tomorrow evening or late afternoon.
		
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I think we have to accept that this is just another pointless exercise, supermarkets in Hornchurch were very busy today, Sainsbury’s only having 1 till in 4 working (for our safety apparently🙄) meant long queues down the aisles making social distancing a tad difficult. The High Street was busy, don’t think I saw a single shop closed. 

Read this article.... apparently this Professor argues the NHS could vaccinate the entire population in 5 days if they dropped all their Bullshit bureaucracy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -professor


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## IanM (Jan 9, 2021)

That’s lots of jabs per hour!

bet the five days doesn’t include manufacturing,transportation, site set up, etc etc etc.


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## fundy (Jan 9, 2021)

geez the Gruniad print some rubbish these days


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## pauljames87 (Jan 10, 2021)

Reemul said:



			You mean you can't buy pet food for a month or 2 rather than weekly.

Again it's like an excuse but we have pets, next it will be but we have Covid...
		
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I count myself as very lucky. I can afford to buy my pets food 3 months at a time online storing in garage 

I haven't been to a super market since march I have been clicking and collecting once a week making sure my freezer is full of meat and cooked meals incase I have to isolate 

A lot of people cant do this. They shouldn't be judged for not being able to.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 10, 2021)

Reemul said:



			You mean you can't buy pet food for a month or 2 rather than weekly.

Again it's like an excuse but we have pets, next it will be but we have Covid...
		
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You mean you can’t buy human food for a month? How many times do you go to the shop? Have you got a freezer? hope you aren’t buying fresh food and only freezer meals because fresh not essential is it really? 
In fact shut the shops and forage in the woods if your that bothered.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			geez the Gruniad print some rubbish these days
		
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The "five days" quote is lifted from The Times, but for the professor to claim that the NHS "is not really motivated" to vaccinate everyone is insulting and laughable.


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## Crazyface (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me and Mrs out for a short walk around 1pm and couldn’t believe volume of traffic - it was a normal Saturday.  Loads of cars going into local Homebase, Halfords, petsRUs and council ‘tip’ - all fully open it seemed.  What’s essential about _any_ of that lot.  And where was all the traffic not going to these stores all going?  1st lockdown the roads were deserted.  Just not getting it at all.

And this in a part of the country where the rate per thousand is over 1000 - and nearby it’s 1750 - and rising almost everywhere for miles around - I fear that we are doomed if nothing is changed and so i expect a PM statement on tightening things tomorrow evening or late afternoon.
		
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Well I was going to post something on the same lines. It's utterly ridiculous the amount of people who were out in their cars yesterday. It was just like a normal Saturday. It's about time something is set up to keep  a check on people driving about.


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## Reemul (Jan 10, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			You mean you can’t buy human food for a month? How many times do you go to the shop? Have you got a freezer? hope you aren’t buying fresh food and only freezer meals because fresh not essential is it really?
In fact shut the shops and forage in the woods if your that bothered.
		
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Once a week, delivered to the home..been doing that since home deliveries started years ago, have a freezer too. It's not hard unless you don't really want to do it and surely you can buy pet food from your supermarket at the same time. The idea being to limit the number of shops you need to go to surely. Oh i know, poochie needs his super deluxe organic special seaweed biscuits in this pandemic so i need to travel 20 minutes to get it.

People just want to carry on as normal and any excuse to do it will do, common sense for many is as it was.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			geez the Gruniad print some rubbish these days
		
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Did you take 5 minutes to read it? It was not an opinion piece by some sensationalist journo...it was the view of Sir John Bell, regius chair of medicine at the University of Oxford and Dr Richard Vautrey, GP committee chair of the British Medical Association.
Now I don’t know if they have some agenda against the NHS but to dismiss their views as “Rubbish” seems a bit ridiculous.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 10, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Once a week, delivered to the home..been doing that since home deliveries started years ago, have a freezer too. It's not hard unless you don't really want to do it and surely you can buy pet food from your supermarket at the same time. The idea being to limit the number of shops you need to go to surely. Oh i know, poochie needs his super deluxe organic special seaweed biscuits in this pandemic so i need to travel 20 minutes to get it.

People just want to carry on as normal and any excuse to do it will do, common sense for many is as it was.
		
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It's not hard? Easy if you have the cash and the space

Lots of people don't. 

But long as your alright .. just sit there and pass judgement


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Id say pet shops are very essienal. You need animals to still be cared for and fed surely
		
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Yes they do. supermarkets have pet food and make appointment with a vet at the pet store if the pet store has a vet and you need it. Only folks going to the pet store will be those with a pet needing attention and an appointment.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes they do. supermarkets have pet food and make appointment with a vet at the pet store if the pet store has a vet and you need it. Only folks going to the pet store will be those with a pet needing attention and an appointment.
		
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Church this morning?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I think we have to accept that this is just another pointless exercise, supermarkets in Hornchurch were very busy today, Sainsbury’s only having 1 till in 4 working (for our safety apparently🙄) meant long queues down the aisles making social distancing a tad difficult. The High Street was busy, don’t think I saw a single shop closed.

Read this article.... apparently this Professor argues the NHS could vaccinate the entire population in 5 days if they dropped all their Bullshit bureaucracy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... -professor

Click to expand...

Bring back strict management of numbers allowed into a supermarket at any time.  I have to queue outside. Well so be it or I come back later.  That queue can be managed by the supermarket and shopping will be much safer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Church this morning?
		
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My church is shut. Has been for weeks. We don’t think it is a COVID-safe environment for our congregation - despite what the government guidelines might say.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My church is shut. Has been for weeks. We don’t think it is a COVID-safe environment for our congregation.
		
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Probably the correct response. My parents is still open. There in lies the problem with all of this. It comes down to a personal interpretation of what is essential. Maybe the interpretation should be taken away?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes they do. supermarkets have pet food and make appointment with a vet at the pet store if the pet store has a vet and you need it. Only folks going to the pet store will be those with a pet needing attention and an appointment.
		
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Do you know the people going in are not in this category or just passing judgement?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2021)

Is info being released by Track and Trace at the moment identifying where people are catching the virus? 50-60k per day are massive numbers and I'm intrigued as to how.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is info being released by Track and Trace at the moment identifying where people are catching the virus? 50-60k per day are massive numbers and I'm intrigued as to how.
		
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I've been saying this for sometime. Surely by now there should be data available that shows where most virus transmissions take place, a  plan could then be made to target these demographics with whatever needs to be done to reduce the causes.

I get the impression that there is some reason this information is not being made available, could it be due to some form of political correctness, not wanting to upset certain demographics or being seen to target them.  I do hope that's not the case but if it is we have our priorities all wrong.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 10, 2021)

From Germany. Where they do have a track & trace system


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 10, 2021)

Our lass grandad 88 was in hospital with his heart just after Christmas. Not been out the house all year, missus has only seen him through the window. He lives next door but one to his son so he’s been a well looked after with shopping. More or less imprisoned by the family. 

I told our lass the last place he should be is in a hospital, he’ll either get covid or MRSA. 

took a turn for the worse two days ago and likely today will be his last day. He caught covid at the hospital.

Missus is angry because his last year has been spent locked up for nothing. grandma 86 wife of 68 years won’t be there for his last breath and will likely die of mourning this year if experience is anything to go by.  

I’ve just dropped the lass off at her sisters. 
Lockdown or not it’s time for them to be together as a family now. 

Personally I’d like to see her grandma free from her shackles, she won’t see the back of this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Do you know the people going in are not in this category or just passing judgement?
		
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I simply observed that the pet supermarket was open and that there was nothing stopping me going in. Specialist pet food not held by supermarkets? Click and collect or request at the store entrance so as not then needing to go into store.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Probably the correct response. My parents is still open. There in lies the problem with all of this. It comes down to a personal interpretation of what is essential. Maybe the interpretation should be taken away?
		
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It should be.  And that is despite me knowing how important being in the actual ‘company’ of others is to some - especially for the elderly who live alone. And being in the company of others does not equate to socialising in any way. For some of our elderly congregants it’s seeing others you know...to see that they are well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I've been saying this for sometime. Surely by now there should be data available that shows where most virus transmissions take place, a  plan could then be made to target these demographics with whatever needs to be done to reduce the causes.

I get the impression that there is some reason this information is not being made available, could it be due to some form of political correctness, not wanting to upset certain demographics or being seen to target them.  I do hope that's not the case but if it is we have our priorities all wrong.
		
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I heard reported on Friday that track and trace is contacting over 90% of those they have to.  No idea where the figures came from.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 10, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Our lass grandad 88 was in hospital with his heart just after Christmas. Not been out the house all year, missus has only seen him through the window. He lives next door but one to his son so he’s been a well looked after with shopping. More or less imprisoned by the family.

I told our lass the last place he should be is in a hospital, he’ll either get covid or MRSA.

took a turn for the worse two days ago and likely today will be his last day. He caught covid at the hospital.

Missus is angry because his last year has been spent locked up for nothing. grandma 86 wife of 68 years won’t be there for his last breath and will likely die of mourning this year if experience is anything to go by. 

I’ve just dropped the lass off at her sisters.
Lockdown or not it’s time for them to be together as a family now.

Personally I’d like to see her grandma free from her shackles, she won’t see the back of this.
		
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That’s sad and really unlucky.
It is what a lot of older people are thinking.
Do I go out or just stay at home.
Not a great choice anyway for them.
My condolences to the family.


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## Reemul (Jan 10, 2021)

My wife has just had a phone call from her school, pupil in her class felt unwell on Monday evening, had a test Thursday, tested positive Saturday and let the school head know about 30 minutes ago. My wife has to isolate for 10 days from the child feeling unwell so until Thursday, so missed a whole week of isolation luckily she has been nowhere outside of school last Tuesday and Wednesday so if she is asymptomatic she could pass it on to key worker children and so on.

Not great to be honest but the wife feels fine.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes they do. supermarkets have pet food and make appointment with a vet at the pet store if the pet store has a vet and you need it. Only folks going to the pet store will be those with a pet needing attention and an appointment.
		
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quite judgemental. Having pet shops open will ease pressure on supermarkets, leading to more social distancing. Maybe have a reflection when you are socially distancing in church next time


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## backwoodsman (Jan 10, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			From Germany. Where they do have a track & trace system
		
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On the face of it, the graph seems to show a bigger proportion of people are now catching it at home. 

We need to go out more  ..


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## PNWokingham (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply observed that the pet supermarket was open and that there was nothing stopping me going in. Specialist pet food not held by supermarkets? Click and collect or request at the store entrance so as not then needing to go into store.
		
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what should stop you going in is if you do not need to as per the guuidance!


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## backwoodsman (Jan 10, 2021)

Apropos of nothing other than curiosity ...

My mum, age 81,  in Nottinghamshire, notified about her vaccination before Christmas, and had it a week ago.
Sister in law, age 86, in West Sussex, has heard nothing at all yet. And doesnt know anyone (ie among those she calls "the old people") who's either had it, or has got an appointment yet.

Just wondering why the seemingly big difference?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			On the face of it, the graph seems to show a bigger proportion of people are now catching it at home.

We need to go out more  ..
		
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not sure what teh stats are but my view, based on nothing other than what i have seen from my kids' school, is that schools are the biggest cause of infection that is spread back in homes. I doubt there is any real evidence of it being spread outside and believe being in the fresh air should be encouraged with no limits apart from the social distancing rule. Not even sure that there is huge danger in supermarkets where everyone is masked up


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## SocketRocket (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard reported on Friday that track and trace is contacting over 90% of those they have to.  No idea where the figures came from.
		
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If that's true then they should know where most infections are happening.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My church is shut. Has been for weeks. We don’t think it is a COVID-safe environment for our congregation - despite what the government guidelines might say.
		
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Scottish Churches all closed.

I liked what the guy said on Politics Scotland this morning.
100 people at a house party is headline news.
Thousands of people staying at home and following the guidelines is not.

Very quiet in our village today.
They must all be absorbed in watching Crawley Athletic playing Leeds City on t'telly [or not].


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## pendodave (Jan 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Apropos of nothing other than curiosity ...

My mum, age 81,  in Nottinghamshire, notified about her vaccination before Christmas, and had it a week ago.
Sister in law, age 86, in West Sussex, has heard nothing at all yet. And doesnt know anyone (ie among those she calls "the old people") who's either had it, or has got an appointment yet.

Just wondering why the seemingly big difference?
		
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My dad (82) lives in east sussex.
Has heard nothing, nor have most of his cronies.
Apparently (i cannot verify this), he is attached to one of two gp surgeries in his town, the other one is doing jabs but his is not. Because there isn't space. 
Obviously having to jab 100s of old people has come as a bit if a surprise to them, as there haven't been any early indications that this might be required...


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## Imurg (Jan 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Apropos of nothing other than curiosity ...

My mum, age 81,  in Nottinghamshire, notified about her vaccination before Christmas, and had it a week ago.
Sister in law, age 86, in West Sussex, has heard nothing at all yet. And doesnt know anyone (ie among those she calls "the old people") who's either had it, or has got an appointment yet.

Just wondering why the seemingly big difference?
		
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Likewise...the In-laws on the Wirral have had both shots..
There must be some kind of delay in the proceedings


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## SaintHacker (Jan 10, 2021)

Could just be down to local population. Sussex is a very popular retirement destination


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## anotherdouble (Jan 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Apropos of nothing other than curiosity ...

My mum, age 81,  in Nottinghamshire, notified about her vaccination before Christmas, and had it a week ago.
Sister in law, age 86, in West Sussex, has heard nothing at all yet. And doesnt know anyone (ie among those she calls "the old people") who's either had it, or has got an appointment yet.

Just wondering why the seemingly big difference?
		
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Sussex has been slow getting it out there. My local surgery has done 79. Don’t know why. I expect that’s all it has been given so far🤷‍♂️


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Sussex has been slow getting it out there. My local surgery has done 79. Don’t know why. I expect that’s all it has been given so far🤷‍♂️
		
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Lots of comments on local (Dorset) pages here (as one of the highest over 80s local population) including from the GP surgeries. 1 surgery is doing all the jabs for 4 or 5 of the surgeries (with staff from each of the surgeries) in the local area as they have extra space that makes SD easier. They have lists from each surgery they are working through but seem to be doing a few days of them then waiting for more supplies before they can do anymore. They certainly have the capacity to go faster but dont have the supply of the vaccination to match it. There doesnt seem to be much in terms of priority within the over 80 age group which is causing plenty to moan that it should be in age order


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2021)

Picture from Crosby of people waiting for the Spurs bus to arrive.
I wonder who’ll they blame if the rate of infection keeps rising in their area!
And why aren’t the Police moving them on?


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## Old Skier (Jan 10, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Picture from Crosby of people waiting for the Spurs bus to arrive.
I wonder who’ll they blame if the rate of infection keeps rising in their area!
And why aren’t the Police moving them on?
View attachment 34410

Click to expand...

Absolutely stupid actions being taken. Serious questions to be asked with the authorities allowing this to continue.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Absolutely stupid actions being taken. Serious questions to be asked with the authorities allowing this to continue.
		
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Covid rate of 745 per 100,000 last week, top 10 in the Country for week on week increases.

They’ll be wondering why the lockdown continues.


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## chellie (Jan 10, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Picture from Crosby of people waiting for the Spurs bus to arrive.
I wonder who’ll they blame if the rate of infection keeps rising in their area!
And why aren’t the Police moving them on?
View attachment 34410

Click to expand...

Just why would you be so stupid as to go and stand there


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 10, 2021)

chellie said:



			Just why would you be so stupid as to go and stand there

Click to expand...

Exactly. There is only one place for the blame. Those standing there.
It's easy to say why aren't the police "moving them on." 
They may have tried to, as they began to congregate, and then they get that "Canute" feeling....!
Because when they say No, what do you do then? 
Start arresting them?
Mounted police involvement?  Water cannon?
This isn't a riot situation where the participants are harming innocent bystanders. All of those there are harming each other. A subtle difference.
But, yes, I agree, they are all likely to be harming the NHS and the community later, but it is a helluva call to make to start using what amounts to violence on them.
Because that's what it would come down to.
When it all comes to it, everyone of us has to be more sensible and logical than we are being. We now have a Country thinking with our hormones instead of our brains.


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## chellie (Jan 10, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. There is only one place for the blame. Those standing there.
It's easy to say why aren't the police "moving them on."
They may have tried to, as they began to congregate, and then they get that "Canute" feeling....!
Because when they say No, what do you do then?
Start arresting them?
Mounted police involvement?  Water cannon?
This isn't a riot situation where the participants are harming innocent bystanders. All of those there are harming each other. A subtle difference.
But, yes, I agree, they are all likely to be harming the NHS and the community later, but it is a helluva call to make to start using what amounts to violence on them.
Because that's what it would come down to.
When it all comes to it, everyone of us has to be more sensible and logical than we are being. We now have a Country thinking with our hormones instead of our brains.
		
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Thick and pig


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 10, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. There is only one place for the blame. Those standing there.
It's easy to say why aren't the police "moving them on."
They may have tried to, as they began to congregate, and then they get that "Canute" feeling....!
Because when they say No, what do you do then?
Start arresting them?
Mounted police involvement?  Water cannon?
This isn't a riot situation where the participants are harming innocent bystanders. All of those there are harming each other. A subtle difference.
But, yes, I agree, they are all likely to be harming the NHS and the community later, but it is a helluva call to make to start using what amounts to violence on them.
Because that's what it would come down to.
When it all comes to it, everyone of us has to be more sensible and logical than we are being. We now have a Country thinking with our hormones instead of our brains.
		
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Or the Police moved people the first few on and the rest didn’t stop.

We can’t have it both ways, we need the people to behave and the authorities the willpower/resources etc to carry out the Government policies.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Picture from Crosby of people waiting for the Spurs bus to arrive.
I wonder who’ll they blame if the rate of infection keeps rising in their area!
And why aren’t the Police moving them on?
View attachment 34410

Click to expand...


Makes my blood boil. Two people died during my 6 hours shift today despite the efforts of doctors who are working longer hours than their shifts, nurses who have given up days off to come in and make up the numbers and all the unsung heroes like HCAs, cleaners, technicians and my ward clerk who was brilliant during two very hard days.


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## Hobbit (Jan 10, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Makes my blood boil. Two people died during my 6 hours shift today despite the efforts of doctors who are working longer hours than their shifts, nurses who have given up days off to come in and make up the numbers and all the unsung heroes like HCAs, cleaners, technicians and my ward clerk who was brilliant during two very hard days.
		
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A very good friend is a semi-retired ICU sister, currently working in Epsom and St Hellier. She's just finished 14 days of 12 hour shifts. So much for being semi-retired. She is beyond angry at the selfish ones.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			A very good friend is a semi-retired ICU sister, currently working in Epsom and St Hellier. She's just finished 14 days of 12 hour shifts. So much for being semi-retired. She is beyond angry at the selfish ones.
		
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Know St Helier very well (born there, spent more than one occasion in their A&E and they looked after my mum and dad). We have doctors on two weeks straight for similar hours and nurses that are taking as short a break between a run of shifts and then volunteering to go back on the roster to add support and numbers.


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## Reemul (Jan 10, 2021)

A bit more context on the woman arrested at Bournemouth Beach / Pier area. Seems a planned protest that was broken up and filming stage managed.

Echo Arrest


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## Slime (Jan 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Apropos of nothing other than curiosity ...

My mum, age 81,  in Nottinghamshire, notified about her vaccination before Christmas, and had it a week ago.
Sister in law, age 86, in West Sussex, has heard nothing at all yet. And doesnt know anyone (ie among those she calls "the old people") who's either had it, or has got an appointment yet.

Just wondering why the seemingly big difference?
		
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My mum is 91yrs old and lives on her own in Guildford, she's not heard a thing about her vaccination yet.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 10, 2021)

I know more people who’ve had a vaccine than have had COVID......


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			I know more people who’ve had a vaccine than have had COVID......
		
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In which case you are/have been very lucky


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## pauljames87 (Jan 10, 2021)

I hope we learn from this and when a pandamic plan is there don't ramp it down.. keep that ppe, etc in place at all times


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

Genuine question, is it true that Boris's father has already had his 2 Covid virus injections, or is it just a rumour ?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Genuine question, is it true that Boris's father has already had his 2 Covid virus injections, or is it just a rumour ?
		
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I know he said he was waiting for his second but believe so


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Genuine question, is it true that Boris's father has already had his 2 Covid virus injections, or is it just a rumour ?
		
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well hes in his 80s, why shouldnt he have? makes a good newspaper headline and all that


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I know he said he was waiting for his second but believe so
		
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I thought it was supposed to be front line staff and people in care homes first


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## Fade and Die (Jan 10, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			I know more people who’ve had a vaccine than have had COVID......
		
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I know the same amount of people who have had Covid as have had the vaccine...None, and as I live in Hot spot Havering that’s a surprise. My 77 year old father is the same, he has a large circle of similarly aged friends and they don’t know anyone that’s had the virus or vaccine. He also spends a lot of time over the cemetery  but considering all these extra deaths there doesn’t seem to be any extra funerals of temporary morgue set up like in March. All very strange.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Apropos of nothing other than curiosity ...

My mum, age 81,  in Nottinghamshire, notified about her vaccination before Christmas, and had it a week ago.
Sister in law, age 86, in West Sussex, has heard nothing at all yet. And doesnt know anyone (ie among those she calls "the old people") who's either had it, or has got an appointment yet.

Just wondering why the seemingly big difference?
		
Click to expand...

Its very odd how the vaccine role out is happening. Me dad is 84,lives in Notts and has Luekemia yet has heard nothing. Yet me mother in her 80’s is reading that folk have had there second And the lack of any info is stressing her out.

That aside I have heard of a Couple of folk I know who have had the first vaccine ( paramedic and nurse) and both have developed Covid within a week. I cannot for one minute belive they have not adhered to the rules, am more inclined to believe its due to the new strain being more infectious.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I thought it was supposed to be front line staff and people in care homes first 

Click to expand...

My grandparents are over 80 and have both had both jabs now 
Group 2

Stanley is over 80 so he on same list as NHS frontline workers now
Much as i want it be angry it's the list as promised


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Its very odd how the vaccine role out is happening. Me dad is 84,lives in Notts and has Luekemia yet has heard nothing. Yet me mother in her 80’s is reading that folk have had there second And the lack of any info is stressing her out.

That aside I have heard of a Couple of folk I know who have had the first vaccine ( paramedic and nurse) and both have developed Covid within a week. I cannot for one minute belive they have not adhered to the rules, am more inclined to believe its due to the new strain being more infectious.
		
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Do you expect them to do it in exact age order across the whole country? Different surgeries have taken longer to get ready to give the vaccinations so some are slightly ahead of others and its going to take a while to do all of the over 80s

As for those developing it after the jab, some are to be expected surely, it doesnt protect you until after a few weeks and the flu jab always used to give the odd case a mild dose of flu


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			well hes in his 80s, why shouldnt he have? makes a good newspaper headline and all that[/QUOTE
		
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Just doesn't seem right to me , people in care homes are at greater risk, sounds like preferential treatment.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			Do you expect them to do it in exact age order across the whole country? Different surgeries have taken longer to get ready to give the vaccinations so some are slightly ahead of others and its going to take a while to do all of the over 80s

As for those developing it after the jab, some are to be expected surely, it doesnt protect you until after a few weeks and the flu jab always used to give the odd case a mild dose of flu
		
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Should be easy to track down people in care homes


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Just doesn't seem right to me , people in care homes are at greater risk, sounds like preferential treatment.
		
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If he was the only over 80 non care home resident vaccinated Id agree with you, but the truth is he is one of hundreds of thousands

Vaccinations have been distributed country wide to pharmacies and vaccination centres who are vaccinating group 2, the over 80s not in a care home


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Should be easy to track down people in care homes 

Click to expand...

So you want them to wait to distribute the vaccine to GPs, vaccination centres etc until every single care home resident has had theirs?


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			So you want them to wait to distribute the vaccine to GPs, vaccination centres etc until every single care home resident has had theirs?
		
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Yes and front line staff.


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Yes and front line staff.
		
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sigh


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			sigh
		
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Seemingly care homes have the largest covid death figures , sigh


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Seemingly care homes have the largest covid death figures , sigh
		
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You that stupid? really? So you want them to slow down the vaccination program to ensure everyone gets it in the perfectly correct order? Really? Theyre doing care home and the over 80s as the first wave together. They are trying to get as many vulnerable people vaccinated as soon as possible.

Any problem with the Queen and Philip having had theirs as last time I checked Buck Palace wasnt a care home? Or just because it was old man Johnson?


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

fundy said:



			You that stupid? really? So you want them to slow down the vaccination program to ensure everyone gets it in the perfectly correct order? Really? Theyre doing care home and the over 80s as the first wave together. They are trying to get as many vulnerable people vaccinated as soon as possible.

Any problem with the Queen and Philip having had theirs as last time I checked Buck Palace wasnt a care home? Or just because it was old man Johnson?
		
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 I'm entitled to my opinion so there's no need for stupid childish insults. I've no problem with those and such as those getting the vaccination, as long as they wait their turn and don't jump the queue , most vulnerable should be first. 
 Some seem to have already had their 2 jabs, so much for the 3 months wait between jabs.


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## hovis (Jan 10, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			I know more people who’ve had a vaccine than have had COVID......
		
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My place of work has
28 firefighters
78 police
3 admin staff
8 cleaners.
As yet not a single reported covid case


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## fundy (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm entitled to my opinion so there's no need for stupid childish insults. I've no problem with those and such as those getting the vaccination, as long as they wait their turn and don't jump the queue , most vulnerable should be first.
Some seem to have already had their 2 jabs, so much for the 3 months wait between jabs.
		
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Its not just the one person you mention though, thousands up and down the country have had 2 jabs already. thats not their fault, theyve not jumped the queue, theyve just turned up when their surgery notified them to do so. Our GPs are giving everyone who had had the first jab before the "1 jab and 12 week wait" announcement their 2nd jab and have heard similar elsewhere, my FIL in London had his 2nd jab earlier this week

The one I find strange is that when they vaccinate one person in a household they dont vaccinate the rest at the same time, especially in couples where one is over 80 and the other isnt. Surely would be easier to vaccinate the couple together at the same time. There again we all have opinions how they should be doing it and are probably grateful were not the ones trying to organise it and appease everyone at the same time


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 10, 2021)

No one is jumping any queues

The priority group and front line workers are being done right now

PCN are setting up vaccine centres and at the same time some people are being given the vaccine in - care homes , hospitals and GP surgery’s whilst they set up the centres

No one is jumping queue because of who they are

Some PCN have just got up and running a bit quicker than others


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## Ethan (Jan 10, 2021)

The rollout has been very patchy, partly because that is the nature of the sort of localised system that long standing NHS policy dictates. 

The criteria are not very clinically oriented, they are intended more for bureaucratic simplicity, because men have a worse risk of death than women 5 years older, BAME a similar disadvantage than white people, and if a sensible clinically orientated rollout was taking place, it would use adjusted Covid age, which is basically biological age adjusted for gender, ethnicity and certain risk factors. This can be done pretty easily with some programming. It becomes less critical as you get down the age groups. 

But in the meantime, nobody should be held back in one place because others of the same age are waiting in another. Vaccinate anyone rather than vaccinate nobody. If there are spares left over at the end of the clinic that will go to waste, vaccinate people walking by the surgery or in the shop next door. This is a numbers game, and everybody vaccinated is one person closer to getting onto safe ground. And in the NHS, it seems that there are some anomalies too, with some places doing backroom staff before frontline staff. That is bad. 

Meantime, I am still waiting to hear if they want me to help out. Not in a major hurry, it seems.


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## hovis (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm entitled to my opinion so there's no need for stupid childish insults. I've no problem with those and such as those getting the vaccination, as long as they wait their turn and don't jump the queue , most vulnerable should be first.
Some seem to have already had their 2 jabs, so much for the 3 months wait between jabs.
		
Click to expand...

My friend is 34 and had a jab.  He was in hospital and was offered one because they was going to throw it away due to no shows.  Did he jump the queue?


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The rollout has been very patchy, partly because that is the nature of the sort of localised system that long standing NHS policy dictates.

The criteria are not very clinically oriented, they are intended more for bureaucratic simplicity, because men have a worse risk of death than women 5 years older, BAME a similar disadvantage than white people, and if a sensible clinically orientated rollout was taking place, it would use adjusted Covid age, which is basically biological age adjusted for gender, ethnicity and certain risk factors. This can be done pretty easily with some programming. It becomes less critical as you get down the age groups.

But in the meantime, nobody should be held back in one place because others of the same age are waiting in another. Vaccinate anyone rather than vaccinate nobody. If there are spares left over at the end of the clinic that will go to waste, vaccinate people walking by the surgery or in the shop next door. This is a numbers game, and everybody vaccinated is one person closer to getting onto safe ground. And in the NHS, it seems that there are some anomalies too, with some places doing backroom staff before frontline staff. That is bad.

Meantime, I am still waiting to hear if they want me to help out. Not in a major hurry, it seems.
		
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I take it that all inoculations will recorded and dated on a national data base ?


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## upsidedown (Jan 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I take it that all inoculations will recorded and dated on a national data base ?
		
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On the Nivs, National immunisation vaccination system


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## williamalex1 (Jan 10, 2021)

hovis said:



			My friend is 34 and had a jab.  He was in hospital and was offered one because they was going to throw it away due to no shows.  Did he jump the queue?
		
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As far as I know ?? we don't have that option here in Scotland yet. No he didn't jump the queue, he was in right place at the right time, like a care home .


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## Ethan (Jan 10, 2021)

hovis said:



			My friend is 34 and had a jab.  He was in hospital and was offered one because they was going to throw it away due to no shows.  Did he jump the queue?
		
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No, he didn't, he saved a valuable resource from being wasted. I know a guy whose wife was administering vaccs. They were due to finish at 6pm. At 10 to 6, she called him and said they had some spare vaccs, tried everybody on their reserve list, not enough takers, and the rest was going to be chucked out in 10. If he got his ass up there in 9, he would get one. He did, and was just right to do so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			quite judgemental. Having pet shops open will ease pressure on supermarkets, leading to more social distancing. Maybe have a reflection when you are socially distancing in church next time
		
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Whatever the point of the dig or what it is supposed to achieve I don’t know, but you‘ll be fully aware that not one of us, whether having a faith or not, needs to be in a church nor socially distancing to engage in moments of reflection.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatever the point of the dig or what it is supposed to achieve I don’t know, but you‘ll be fully aware that not one of us, whether having a faith or not, needs to be in a church nor socially distancing to engage in moments of reflection.
		
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as none of us need to be in a supermarket to buy dog food


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Reports that we may increase lockdown restrictions 

Nurseries closed
Only allowed out once a week
No exercise with other households
No support bubbles 

If your only allowed out once a week how you going to exercise with other households? Lol unless that's your one trip out 

This would kill my wife's mental state off for sure so would worry about the countries mental health with the bottom 3. Top one well 🤷 is what it is 

I don't question it though. It's been a week. How long before we see the numbers from closing schools? Thought we were seeing new year's eve numbers atm


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## rudebhoy (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Reports that we may increase lockdown restrictions

Nurseries closed
Only allowed out once a week
No exercise with other households
No support bubbles

If your only allowed out once a week how you going to exercise with other households? Lol unless that's your one trip out

This would kill my wife's mental state off for sure so would worry about the countries mental health with the bottom 3. Top one well 🤷 is what it is

I don't question it though. It's been a week. How long before we see the numbers from closing schools? Thought we were seeing new year's eve numbers atm
		
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Not sure how my dog will cope with one walk a week!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Not sure how my dog will cope with one walk a week!
		
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Think a lot of it is rumour and won't happen

Also if there is one thing this pandemic has proven it's that the British public are uncontrollable. 

So much call for Oz style lockdowns that work etc and whilst I agree the Great British public (not all of them) would revolt. Your not taking away my rights 

Just like that lady who wouldn't close her shop and claimed the magnacarta said she could open 

Would be impossible to police for our already over run police force


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## Beezerk (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Reports that we may increase lockdown restrictions

Nurseries closed
Only allowed out once a week
No exercise with other households
No support bubbles
		
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And yet I and millions more still have to go out to work Mon-Fri, bonkers.


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## Crazyface (Jan 11, 2021)

hovis said:



			My friend is 34 and had a jab.  He was in hospital and was offered one because they was going to throw it away due to no shows.  Did he jump the queue?
		
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Thank you for this post. I was saying just as much over Sunday lunch. My youngest son has been shielding for all the time and is waiting for his vaccine. I said that when he's done he should ask to be contacted when there is a no show, then rock up and get his second and most important dose.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			And yet I and millions more still have to go out to work Mon-Fri, bonkers.
		
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Would be very short sighted if all of it closed then good luck getting the NHS through the winter with half the staff stuck at home with childcare issues 

Nurseries would need massive support from gov to just open for key workers kids 

Also everyone's a key worker now days


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			Do you expect them to do it in exact age order across the whole country? Different surgeries have taken longer to get ready to give the vaccinations so some are slightly ahead of others and its going to take a while to do all of the over 80s

As for those developing it after the jab, some are to be expected surely, it doesnt protect you until after a few weeks and the flu jab always used to give the odd case a mild dose of flu
		
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I don’t expect anything, my jabs are about 8th on the list So it don’t affect me. Ave come off the phone to someone who has isolated since March and unlike some Who just want to hit a golf ball, they cannot go out anywhere Until they have had the vaccine.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Wise words from Mr witty 

Looks like the science wants nurseries open for staff to get in


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 11, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			And yet I and millions more still have to go out to work Mon-Fri, bonkers.
		
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Of course it's not bonkers. 
What is essential has to be done.  Work etc. ( that was acknowledged when the guidelines/rules said work from home  *if possible)*
So what is not essential has to be temporarily stopped .Because *all *contacts are potential spreading events.
Stopping as many contacts as possible is what is needed.
Ref the tightening rules suggested - there will be necessary exceptions,
Dogs toilet etc.  of course there will. 
But you know that this lockdown so far has not seen enough people staying put, as in the first one. Many on here have seen this and commented on it.
The figures are horrendous and more needs to be done.


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## Slab (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 34421


Wise words from Mr witty

Looks like the science wants nurseries open for staff to get in
		
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Unfortunately even sections of this forum don't believe/agree/care about the 4th & 5th & if that's representative of the UK as a whole then the outlook is still grim


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## SammmeBee (Jan 11, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			And yet I and millions more still have to go out to work Mon-Fri, bonkers.
		
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Do you all really?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Of course it's not bonkers.
What is essential has to be done.  Work etc. ( that was acknowledged when the guidelines/rules said work from home  *if possible)*
So what is not essential has to be temporarily stopped .Because *all *contacts are potential spreading events.
Stopping as many contacts as possible is what is needed.
Ref the tightening rules suggested - there will be necessary exceptions,
Dogs toilet etc.  of course there will.
But you know that this lockdown so far has not seen enough people staying put, as in the first one. Many on here have seen this and commented on it.
The figures are horrendous and more needs to be done.
		
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Employers need addressing a lot more

So many open when they don't need to be and so many claiming key worker status when their not / refusing to let staff work from home


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			as none of us need to be in a supermarket to buy dog food
		
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which is a view like mine - but i am not clear where my church going comes into it...or indeed the point of mentioning at all. If I choose to be judgmental as others on here then I will be judgemental on others, and I will reflect on my thoughts as I see fit in precisely the same way as all of us can reflect on our thoughts and comments.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which is a view like mine - but i am not clear where my church going comes into it...or indeed the point of mentioning at all. If I choose to be judgmental as others on here then I will be judgemental on others, and I will reflect on my thoughts as I see fit in precisely the same way as all of us can reflect on our thoughts and comments.
		
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Churches have the luxury of deciding themselves if they can open
Their congregation will accept it and still support them
If law let's pet stores open and they decide not to the gov will provide no help to them

The guidelines are the problem in the main not the people

Yes in some cases the people are just stupid and useless but not all


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## Ethan (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which is a view like mine - but i am not clear where my church going comes into it...or indeed the point of mentioning at all. If I choose to be judgmental as others on here then I will be judgemental on others, and I will reflect on my thoughts as I see fit in precisely the same way as all of us can reflect on our thoughts and comments.
		
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The virus doesn't know if it is in a church or a supermarket. People sitting relatively static for an hour indoors is a recipe for transmission. It was reported yesterday on the BBC that mass worship adds 0.1 to the R-value. That means more cases transmitting unnecessarily to others. I am sure your God will forgive you if you worship him from home.


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## Imurg (Jan 11, 2021)

This lockdown is, largely, a slightly firmer Tier 4. Apart from the schools being shy there's little real difference 
Many businesses are open when, if this was even bordering on a proper lockdown, they shouldn't be.
Far too many people are "playing" at lockdown.
Parts of the NHS are on the verge of being overrun with Covid patients 
Somewhere, quite soon, a Doctor is going to have to play God - they'll have to decide who lives and who dies
And that scenario scares the crap out of me.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			This lockdown is, largely, a slightly firmer Tier 4. Apart from the schools being shy there's little real difference
Many businesses are open when, if this was even bordering on a proper lockdown, they shouldn't be.
Far too many people are "playing" at lockdown.
Parts of the NHS are on the verge of being overrun with Covid patients
Somewhere, quite soon, a Doctor is going to have to play God - they'll have to decide who lives and who dies
And that scenario scares the crap out of me.
		
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To be fair lockdown 2.0 had schools open .. so this is a stricker lockdown than 2.0

It's more strict than 1.5 which was when golf re opened but many restrictions stayed in place

Not as strict as 1.0 though but that was when even construction shut down

It's not far off though


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## DanFST (Jan 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Somewhere, quite soon, a Doctor is going to have to play God - they'll have to decide who lives and who dies
And that scenario scares the crap out of me.
		
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I don't want to scare you, but that's already happening.


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## Imurg (Jan 11, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I don't want to scare you, but that's already happening.
		
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Then it pains me even more


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Then it pains me even more

Click to expand...

A good pal of mine in Italy, his wife was told “ there’s a couple of things we can try but if that don’t work, sorry but we have done our best and someone else will need the bed”. She was convinced he was going to die. Fortunately at the moment he is pulling through. Looks like long days of physio Ahead.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 11, 2021)

Just spoke to my mate, his wife is a nurse on mat leave presently. She volunteered to go back early to help with vaccinations and got told thanks but no thanks. 

NHS Scotland seem to think they have this under their control. Deluded fools, the lot of them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

Good words from Proff Whitty this morning

The numbers we are seeing now are the ones from over Xmas - we all expected the numbers to be high so it shouldn’t be a surprise - even more so with the ramp up in testing

Lockdown started 6 days ago - that will have an affect on the numbers just as the vaccine centres starting this week will also help matters , it was always going to be a hard Jan for us because of the weather helping the virus be passed round along with this new strain going around quicker but it’s not stronger.

And doctors have been playing god for decades - that’s not a new thing.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Good words from Proff Whitty this morning

The numbers we are seeing now are the ones from over Xmas - we all expected the numbers to be high so it shouldn’t be a surprise - even more so with the ramp up in testing

Lockdown started 6 days ago - that will have an affect on the numbers just as the vaccine centres starting this week will also help matters , it was always going to be a hard Jan for us because of the weather helping the virus be passed round along with this new strain going around quicker but it’s not stronger.

And doctors have been playing god for decades - that’s not a new thing.
		
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I thought as much. We aren't even seeing the numbers for last week yet so increasing any measures well any drastically would be a bit soon. Have to give it time to see if the measures are working 

If this Is Xmas then new year's is next week's numbers and end of Jan we will see the school numbers


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## bobmac (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And doctors have been playing god for decades - that’s not a new thing.
		
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I'm not sure I get your meaning, can you clarify please?


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## Beezerk (Jan 11, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Do you all really?
		
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Do I really what, have to go to work?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

If I closed my business right now then I would not have a feasible business to come back to. My customers, mostly European, would have to find alternatives to keep them going. So we stay open. We have not shut at any stage but we have distancing measures in place. Only 4 staff but none of us have, as far as we know, contracted the virus. Follow the advice, follow good practice and it is possible to keep going. If we, and others, do not then who is left to pay taxes, now and going forwards?

Pet food. I'm struggling to believe this is a discussion point but I will be going to Pets at Home tonight to buy dog food. She has been on the same brand for 10 years and my wife would not have her changing now, upset stomachs etc. My local branch is 100 times more secure than the supermarkets. They still have a one way system in place, far fewer people in the shop, I don't have to walk 100 meters to get the item I want.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If I closed my business right now then I would not have a feasible business to come back to. My customers, mostly European, would have to find alternatives to keep them going. So we stay open. We have not shut at any stage but we have distancing measures in place. Only 4 staff but none of us have, as far as we know, contracted the virus. Follow the advice, follow good practice and it is possible to keep going. If we, and others, do not then who is left to pay taxes, now and going forwards?

Pet food. I'm struggling to believe this is a discussion point but I will be going to Pets at Home tonight to buy dog food. She has been on the same brand for 10 years and my wife would not have her changing now, upset stomachs etc. My local branch is 100 times more secure than the supermarkets. They still have a one way system in place, far fewer people in the shop, I don't have to walk 100 meters to get the item I want.
		
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Careful mate, next we’ll have someone asking if pets are essential. Just imagine how trips outside would of been saved if we’ve had all pets put down at the beginning of the pandemic.


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## road2ruin (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Reports that we may increase lockdown restrictions

Nurseries closed
Only allowed out once a week
No exercise with other households
No support bubbles

If your only allowed out once a week how you going to exercise with other households? Lol unless that's your one trip out

This would kill my wife's mental state off for sure so would worry about the countries mental health with the bottom 3. Top one well 🤷 is what it is

I don't question it though. It's been a week. How long before we see the numbers from closing schools? Thought we were seeing new year's eve numbers atm
		
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It seems as though we are experiencing what has become the 'norm', the government start leaking details of any new restrictions around 36/48 hours before it is officially announced, assume this is to give the general public the chance to get any anger/frustration etc out of their system. The only thing I would add to the above list is apparently masks are to be required in all outdoor spaces. 

Must admit I cannot see the 'allowed out once a week' working, even those who have been following the guidelines will struggle to follow that especially those living in flats etc with younger children/pets. The tighter restrictions have to be realistic and I don't think that one is.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Careful mate, next we’ll be asking if pets are essential. Just imagine how trips outside would of been saved if we had all pets put down at the beginning of the pandemic.

Click to expand...

I think an outbreak of hysteria is happening right now, whipped up by the media. People need to take a few deep breaths, take a step back and compose themselves. I'm well aware of the numbers etc but people are losing the plot.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It seems as though we are experiencing what has become the 'norm', the government start leaking details of any new restrictions around 36/48 hours before it is officially announced, assume this is to give the general public the chance to get any anger/frustration etc out of their system. The only thing I would add to the above list is apparently masks are to be required in all outdoor spaces. 

Must admit I cannot see the 'allowed out once a week' working, even those who have been following the guidelines will struggle to follow that especially those living in flats etc with younger children/pets. The tighter restrictions have to be realistic and I don't think that one is.
		
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Closing nurseries on the list above is about the only one that makes any sense 

However unlike schools if they close they will need funding to stay afloat until people need them again otherwise we just walking into a further crisis down the line


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think an outbreak of hysteria is happening right now, whipped up by the media. People need to take a few deep breaths, take a step back and compose themselves. I'm well aware of the numbers etc but people are losing the plot.
		
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Or ban the media lol

One point was people going to shops daily to buy a paper 

Ditch the papers 

Job done lol


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Or ban the media lol

One point was people going to shops daily to buy a paper

Ditch the papers

Job done lol
		
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Two birds with one stone


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The virus doesn't know if it is in a church or a supermarket. People sitting relatively static for an hour indoors is a recipe for transmission. It was reported yesterday on the BBC that mass worship adds 0.1 to the R-value. That means more cases transmitting unnecessarily to others. I am sure your God will forgive you if you worship him from home.
		
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Indeed - as I noted - my church has been closed throughout other than for a few Sundays in October when things seemed OK and we were allowed.  Whilst collective worship is clearly very important to any congregation - we recognise that it is not _essential _- and hence though we _could _be open we have decided to remain closed to minimise the risk to our congregation (especially given the preponderance of more elderly we have) and also the wider community.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Closing nurseries on the list above is about the only one that makes any sense

However unlike schools if they close they will need funding to stay afloat until people need them again otherwise we just walking into a further crisis down the line
		
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Why are people reacting to “rumours” and “reports” 

The Chief Medical has stated what’s happening , why would they suddenly add more restrictions when the ones they applied 6 days ago havent even taken affect 

Prof Whitty has already said why they kept nurseries open amongst other things 

Why are people suddenly started to get all hysterical , nothing has changed over the past week. Once again the media are getting people wound up 

Why are they not focusing on all those vaccine centres that start this week


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Churches have the luxury of deciding themselves if they can open
Their congregation will accept it and still support them
If law let's pet stores open and they decide not to the gov will provide no help to them

The guidelines are the problem in the main not the people

Yes in some cases the people are just stupid and useless but not all
		
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Maybe.  However as Chris Whitty repeatedly emphasised this morning.  We should be staying at home unless we _have _to go out for _essential _needs or a short period of exercise.  We should *not* be looking at the rules as defining what we _can_ do - for us then to be able to decide what we would like to leave home to do within these limits. 

At the moment it appears to me that many ask themselves - what _can_ I do, rather than what do I _absolutely need _to do.  As Whitty said - as far as is at all possible what I absolutely _need _to do at the moment is to stay at home.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are people reacting to “rumours” and “reports” 

The Chief Medical has stated what’s happening , why would they suddenly add more restrictions when the ones they applied 6 days ago havent even taken affect 

Prof Whitty has already said why they kept nurseries open amongst other things 

Why are people suddenly started to get all hysterical , nothing has changed over the past week. Once again the media are getting people wound up 

Why are they not focusing on all those vaccine centres that start this week
		
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Simple newspaper reports from the Tory graph, daily hate and other papers 

Media should only report facts not rumour


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe.  However as Chris Whitty repeatedly emphasised this morning.  We should be staying at home unless we _have _to go out for _essential _needs or a short period of exercise.  We should *not* be looking at the rules as defining what we _can_ do - for us then to be able to decide what we would like to leave home to do within these limits. 

At the moment it appears to me that many ask themselves - what _can_ I do, rather than what do I _absolutely need _to do.  As Whitty said - as far as is at all possible what I absolutely _need _to do at the moment is to stay at home.
		
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Can you actually blame people? You might be ok in your world right now but your a different stage of life from many of those affected 

Some are stuck working from home throughout and getting no break from the 4 walls of their house 

The lucky ones have a study or spare room to turn into a home office. These suit home working but some are flat sharing or just living alone and working on the kitchen table without a break from anything

Much like a prison .. which I'm sure some people are feeling like ATM 

I consider myself lucky I'm working as normal as I can't work from home. Never thought going to work would be a luxury

Isn't it judge not lest ye be judged?


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## Ethan (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are people reacting to “rumours” and “reports”

The Chief Medical has stated what’s happening , why would they suddenly add more restrictions when the ones they applied 6 days ago havent even taken affect

Prof Whitty has already said why they kept nurseries open amongst other things

Why are people suddenly started to get all hysterical , nothing has changed over the past week. Once again the media are getting people wound up

Why are they not focusing on all those vaccine centres that start this week
		
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There has been a habit of the Govt trailing future changes to the rules in the media, partly to judge the reaction. This has been disruptive and harmful in the past too.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Simple newspaper reports from the Tory graph, daily hate and other papers

Media should only report facts not rumour
		
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Last time I believed in the news was when they were with Huey Lewis.


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## road2ruin (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why are people reacting to “rumours” and “reports”

The Chief Medical has stated what’s happening , why would they suddenly add more restrictions when the ones they applied 6 days ago havent even taken affect

Prof Whitty has already said why they kept nurseries open amongst other things

Why are people suddenly started to get all hysterical , nothing has changed over the past week. Once again the media are getting people wound up

Why are they not focusing on all those vaccine centres that start this week
		
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Because it’s been a pattern across the last few big announcements. Newspapers start reporting it and then a day or so a formal announcement is made.


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## Bdill93 (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe.  However as Chris Whitty repeatedly emphasised this morning.  We should be staying at home unless we _have _to go out for _essential _needs or a short period of exercise.  We should *not* be looking at the rules as defining what we _can_ do - for us then to be able to decide what we would like to leave home to do within these limits.

At the moment it appears to me that many ask themselves - what _can_ I do, rather than what do I _absolutely need _to do.  As Whitty said - as far as is at all possible what I absolutely _need _to do at the moment is to stay at home.
		
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Far too many businesses still open. Roads are still mega busy too. The message from the government is just being ignored by a nation tired of lockdowns. Especially when its so open to abuse.

We have a new doughnut shop in worcester, only opened its doors in December. On saturday they'd sold out of doughnuts by mid-day, queue was about 200 meters in length at all times from 9-12. No need for it, but they cant work from home so its open!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Because it’s been a pattern across the last few big announcements. Newspapers start reporting it and then a day or so a formal announcement is made.
		
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But this time I haven’t actually seen anything in the media saying the restrictions will be strengthened? 

I had a look on social media and beyond one post on here with suggestions I can’t see anything else ?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Reports that we may increase lockdown restrictions

Nurseries closed
Only allowed out once a week
No exercise with other households
No support bubbles

If your only allowed out once a week how you going to exercise with other households? Lol unless that's your one trip out

This would kill my wife's mental state off for sure so would worry about the countries mental health with the bottom 3. Top one well 🤷 is what it is

I don't question it though. It's been a week. How long before we see the numbers from closing schools? Thought we were seeing new year's eve numbers atm
		
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i read this last night in the Daily Whale and made depressing reading. I will ignore anything to do with limiting my freedom to go and walk round streets, lanes, trails and parks in a very isolated, covid-safe manor. We need more enforcement of covidiots not more sensless rules that have nothing to do with supressing the disease (if people behave sensibly). Time for a lot more focus on covid marshalls and police preseence ensuring better behaviour


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## PNWokingham (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			which is a view like mine - but i am not clear where my church going comes into it...or indeed the point of mentioning at all. If I choose to be judgmental as others on here then I will be judgemental on others, and I will reflect on my thoughts as I see fit in precisely the same way as all of us can reflect on our thoughts and comments.
		
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I think the clear majority view here is, given the rest of the lockdown restrictions, that allowing places of worship tio remain open is wrong and unnecessary. I accept that your church is closed but the comment was about your point against petshops, which i disagree with and explained why - and highlighting it against the religious angle that is allowed


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## banjofred (Jan 11, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Far too many businesses still open. Roads are still mega busy too. The message from the government is just being ignored by a nation tired of lockdowns. Especially when its so open to abuse.

We have a new doughnut shop in worcester, only opened its doors in December. On saturday they'd sold out of doughnuts by mid-day, queue was about 200 meters in length at all times from 9-12. No need for it, but they cant work from home so its open!
		
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You said doughnut.....


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2021)

My wife’s school has shut half the classes because half the adult staff have gone down with the virus.
Prof Whitty always claims the children are not affected but the staff are.
If we want schools to stay open they need to vaccinate all adults who work in schools or they will start closing classes as the staff start self isolating.
The phone calls she is taking deciding who gets a place is just non stop.
Everyone thinks they are a key worker now.


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## road2ruin (Jan 11, 2021)

My issue with the increased rules is that, in most cases, it will negatively affect those who are already following the rules i.e. less freedom when they are probably already limiting themselves. Those who never followed or who now feel that it's gone on too long so will not follow will continue to do so. 

I agree with the comments about the number of shops that have opened but clearly are not necessary. The coffee shops around us are full, very little in the way of management in terms of numbers, a snack and a coffee is clearly not essential along with a lot of the other shops.


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## Ethan (Jan 11, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I don't want to scare you, but that's already happening.
		
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Happens all the time. When ICUs are full, it has to happen quickly, and will rightly favour people who have a better chance of getting off their ventilators intact.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			My wife’s school has shut half the classes because half the adult staff have gone down with the virus.
Prof Whitty always claims the children are not affected but the staff are.
If we want schools to stay open they need to vaccinate all adults who work in schools or they will start closing classes as the staff start self isolating.
*The phone calls she is taking deciding who gets a place is just non stop.
Everyone thinks they are a key worker now.*

Click to expand...

Same thing happening at my wife's school. Loads of parents claiming they are key workers so they can get free childcare. The school put a policy in place last week that anyone claiming to be a key worker needs to have proof of where they work, and that they are designated as key workers. Surprise surprise, a good proportion of them didn't provide any proof and their kids are now at home.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 11, 2021)

I live at the coast. Back in lockdown 1, the beach and sea front were rammed with folk who had driven there for a nice walk. Eventually they closed the car parks and publicised the closures to stop the day trippers.

Lesson learned you would think, but no, car parks are currently open and the place was rammed over the weekend.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 11, 2021)

The Daily Mail running a total scare story on their site today about how far new lockdown measures could go.   It's not far short of suggesting martial law.  Appalling "journalism" but what would you expect from them?
Then they add a ton of provocative comments to promote click bait.


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## Beezerk (Jan 11, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			I live at the coast. Back in lockdown 1, the beach and sea front were rammed with folk who had driven there for a nice walk. Eventually they closed the car parks and publicised the closures to stop the day trippers.

Lesson learned you would think, but no, car parks are currently open and the place was rammed over the weekend.
		
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You should have seen my village this weekend, the entrance to Chopwell Woods car park was inaccessible due to the icy conditions, that meant all the "exercisers" just dumped their cars all around the village, it looked like a scene from a disaster movie 🤨


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## road2ruin (Jan 11, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Same thing happening at my wife's school. Loads of parents claiming they are key workers so they can get free childcare. The school put a policy in place last week that anyone claiming to be a key worker needs to have proof of where they work, and that they are designated as key workers. Surprise surprise, a good proportion of them didn't provide any proof and their kids are now at home.
		
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I think that will depend on the company. I have a couple of friends who are now classed as key workers, one is a senior accountant for a well known Dairy firm, she was given a letter from the company to confirm her status and the school had no choice but to accept it (as they had space) given it was within the Government's new guidance on who qualifies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I think the clear majority view here is, given the rest of the lockdown restrictions, that allowing places of worship tio remain open is wrong and unnecessary. I accept that your church is closed but the comment was about your point against petshops, which i disagree with and explained why - and highlighting it against the religious angle that is allowed
		
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With respect - you directed your 'reflect' comment personally to me as an individual churchgoer - and not at the governments decisions in respect of places of worship.  

My comment in respect of the Pet Supermarket was simply that it was one of three stores - the other two being Homebase and Halfords - in the same location - indeed sharing the same car park.  I could have walked straight through the door of the Pet store without having any essential need to do so - and is that not actually the issue in respect of stores that remain open.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With respect - you directed your 'reflect' comment personally to me as an individual churchgoer - and not at the governments decisions in respect of places of worship.  

My comment in respect of the Pet Supermarket was simply that it was one of three stores - the other two being Homebase and Halfords - in the same location - indeed sharing the same car park.  I could have walked straight through the door of the Pet store without having any essential need to do so - and is that not actually the issue in respect of stores that remain open.
		
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How do you know their not in support bubbles or live together?

Home base is DIY that's open 

Halfords is car essienals and bikes which they want us to use more to avoid public transport 

Stop looking for outrage.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 11, 2021)

Starting on the over 80's in my local GP today.
Next group is the 65 to 80's which has cheered my wife up no end.

Numbers seem to be dropping in South Ayrshire although D&G have the worst figures in Scotland and were in group 2 a couple of weeks ago.
Having been looking north to Glasgow for the duration, never thought our biggest threat would be from the south.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think an outbreak of hysteria is happening right now, whipped up by the media. People need to take a few deep breaths, take a step back and compose themselves. I'm well aware of the numbers etc but people are losing the plot.
		
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Totally agree, although this forum don’t do a bad job on the hysteria front. I sometimes think taking the political threads away. Folk are venting there personal frustrations in other topics such as this.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			I live at the coast. Back in lockdown 1, the beach and sea front were rammed with folk who had driven there for a nice walk. Eventually they closed the car parks and publicised the closures to stop the day trippers.

Lesson learned you would think, but no, car parks are currently open and the place was rammed over the weekend.
		
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It's a tough one with the current guidelines. We love that walk, park near to the leisure centre, walk along the wide promenade, go into Whitley and loop back. All outdoors, good for the head to get out, easy to space. We haven't done it since mid December and would not do it under the current circumstances. However, I understand why people do and based on the info we keep being given, transmission there is likely to be close to zero. 

Close those car parks, they are massive along there and you stop it dead. It is within their power if they want to


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Same thing happening at my wife's school. Loads of parents claiming they are key workers so they can get free childcare. The school put a policy in place last week that anyone claiming to be a key worker needs to have proof of where they work, and that they are designated as key workers. Surprise surprise, a good proportion of them didn't provide any proof and their kids are now at home.
		
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Two ways to go imo.
Vaccinate all adults involved with schools.
That way schools can operate as normal .( kids not affected according to the prof) and people can go to work if nessesary.

Just take key workers kids but the staff still need vaccinating.
If an accountant is a key worker so is a bin man / bus driver.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Two ways to go imo.
Vaccinate all adults involved with schools.
That way schools can operate as normal .( kids not affected according to the prof) and people can go to work if nessesary.

Just take key workers kids but the staff still need vaccinating.
If an accountant is a key worker so is a bin man / bus driver.
		
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Both your latter examples are key workers tho? So don't understand that comment


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## GB72 (Jan 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Two ways to go imo.
Vaccinate all adults involved with schools.
That way schools can operate as normal .( kids not affected according to the prof) and people can go to work if nessesary.

Just take key workers kids but the staff still need vaccinating.
If an accountant is a key worker so is a bin man / bus driver.
		
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Therein lies the problem though, the kids stand as much chance of bringing it home and spreading it through parents to their work etc. Keeping the schools shut is about more than keeping the teachers safe and they should be shut for as long as needed.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

So the MIL is very right into the stats etc and working within the NHS - whilst right now things appear to be very bad they expect things to start to level out a bit more which will be a combination of the Tier 4 move and the end of the Xmas numbers etc 

The Zoe App is as well starting to show a touch of a levelling out ableit weekend figures don’t help 

But also they suspect that right now whilst the numbers are high there are less than what we would have seen last March if we were doing the same country wide testing

whilst it’s very hard to act positive throughout this whilst people are suffering and losing family members we do need to keep heads up and not be dragged down by the media and spend all day number crunching

The virus is awful - a lot of people catch it but a very small percentage die from it . 
If they didn’t Flu tests would the numbers be the same ? I suspect so - it doesn’t help right now that we have both flu affecting people and Covid affecting people which is the reason for the NHS being flooded 

People will need to get outside , go for walks , shop , work , travel - we all need to make our own personal judgments within the rules

There is just the three of us at home - my daughter goes to nursery because we are both working , I’m a key worker and my wife hasn’t been put on furlough, if our daughter catches it then it’s just me and the wife at risk - we can deal with that with our age and health bracket , we will also go out for our daily walks - we need them to keep ourselves going . But the FIL is shielding so the BIL etc are not going out to many places beyond a shop because they don’t want to put the FIL at risk. It’s all about personal responsibility within the rules - we will get through this , it’s not easy but we still need to keep our heads up and ignore the media trying to drag the country down and not get dragged into the negative about it all 

And for people who are struggling or on their own - there are people out there you can talk too , go for a walk with - don’t lock yourself away


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe.  However as Chris Whitty repeatedly emphasised this morning.  We should be staying at home unless we _have _to go out for _essential _needs or a short period of exercise.  We should *not* be looking at the rules as defining what we _can_ do - for us then to be able to decide what we would like to leave home to do within these limits.

At the moment it appears to me that many ask themselves - what _can_ I do, rather than what do I _absolutely need _to do.  As Whitty said - as far as is at all possible what I absolutely _need _to do at the moment is to stay at home.
		
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Exactly this. The guidelines aren't the problem at all. The last paragraph above says it all. If you are perusing the guidelines for loopholes then you are doing as in the first sentence of that paragraph. 
People doing that,  are what is causing  the existing guidelines being speculated about.


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## Bdill93 (Jan 11, 2021)

Schools arent shut. Limited capacity sure. But my school of 480 children still has 124 in school on a daily basis at present. In the March 2020 lockdown we had 46. 

Key workers are now not only NHS and Emergency services, supermarkets and delivery drivers - but also "Steve" who walks the canal waters for Birmingham Council ensuring no issues..... Just one example of ours.

Not the parents fault - the companies fault.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 11, 2021)

I really don't understand the thinking behind keepig nurseries open. My wife works in one and to be honest I'm terrified for her. Kids that age don't know how to distance, if they're feeling a bit down they just want a cuddle. Its all very well Whitty saying it doesn't affect that age group but what about the bloody staff? THey can still spread it round. Last time they stayed open for children who had key worker parents/guardians only, this time its a free for all. She's had mums phoning up saying can I bring little johnny back in as he's doing my head in at home! Its crazy.
Without going too poilitical I've supported the government through this whole thing up until now, this time I think they've lost the plot...


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I really don't understand the thinking behind keepig nurseries open. My wife works in one and to be honest I'm terrified for her. Kids that age don't know how to distance, if they're feeling a bit down they just want a cuddle. Its all very well Whitty saying it doesn't affect that age group but what about the bloody staff? THey can still spread it round. Last time they stayed open for children who had key worker parents/guardians only, this time its a free for all. She's had mums phoning up saying can I bring little johnny back in as he's doing my head in at home! Its crazy.
Without going too poilitical I've supported the government through this whole thing up until now, this time I think they've lost the plot...
		
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Money , it's simple as that 

If the nurseries were key workers only they would need much financial support..

Money is driving a lot of decisions


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I really don't understand the thinking behind keepig nurseries open. My wife works in one and to be honest I'm terrified for her. Kids that age don't know how to distance, if they're feeling a bit down they just want a cuddle. Its all very well Whitty saying it doesn't affect that age group but what about the bloody staff? THey can still spread it round. Last time they stayed open for children who had key worker parents/guardians only, this time its a free for all. She's had mums phoning up saying can I bring little johnny back in as he's doing my head in at home! Its crazy.
Without going too poilitical I've supported the government through this whole thing up until now, this time I think they've lost the plot...
		
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This 👍
Theres aspects of keeping the schools open I don’t understand. not don’t agree with, that’s different.
I totally understand that education is important and the “ need to keep schools open”. But at what cost to staff, and parents.
Boris had “every confidence” in keeping the schools open on Sunday. But they closed on Monday with the exception of Key workers. How’s that right. Now we have Chris Whitty a week later rightly saying “ stay at home”. It is a simple message, but that don’t seem to be the clear message from the powers that be.

Bottom line for Tash stay safe.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			This 👍
Theres aspects of keeping the schools open I don’t understand. not don’t agree with, that’s different.
I totally understand that education is important and the “ need to keep schools open”. But at what cost to staff, and parents.
Boris had “every confidence” in keeping the schools open on Sunday. But they closed on Monday with the exception of Key workers. How’s that right. Now we have Chris Whitty a week later rightly saying “ stay at home”. It is a simple message, but that don’t seem to be the clear message from the powers that be.

Bottom line for Tash stay safe.
		
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But if you listen to mr whitty he says nurserys should be open 

So stay at home

Unless you don't have to


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But if you listen to mr whitty he says nurserys should be open

So stay at home

Unless you don't have to
		
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having had two grandkids for the last three days and back again tonight. The five yr old learned a few years back that her index finger fits perfectly up to the second knuckle in her nose. I would hate to think where the “ stuck” contents of her nose End up when she was at the nursery. 😣


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

I wonder on how many who “insist” on taking or say they “need“ to take daily exercise were taking it this time last year?

Great for the health of the Nation if we are getting fitter, but I’m not sure we are.

Obviously this excludes the majority of Dog owners.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I really don't understand the thinking behind keepig nurseries open. My wife works in one and to be honest I'm terrified for her. Kids that age don't know how to distance, if they're feeling a bit down they just want a cuddle. Its all very well Whitty saying it doesn't affect that age group but what about the bloody staff? THey can still spread it round. Last time they stayed open for children who had key worker parents/guardians only, this time its a free for all. She's had mums phoning up saying can I bring little johnny back in as he's doing my head in at home! Its crazy.
Without going too poilitical I've supported the government through this whole thing up until now, this time I think they've lost the plot...
		
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Because there a lot of families still working , front line workers , key workers etc 

Many parents are still both working and when it comes it nursery age kids who need a lot of attention it’s very hard and prob for many impossible to work and look after a 1-4 year old child - and these kids aren’t at that home schooling age yet 

That’s why they have kept nurseries open - it’s helping keeping people working who are having to still work. 

Throughout this whole pandemic our nursery have had one potential case where a member of staff had to self isolate due to contact unrelated to the nursery 

If it wasn’t a safe setting then they would be closed - if people are worried about working in one they then can go on furlough etc 

It’s very hard to remove the personal experience and worries from it all


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there a lot of families still working , front line workers , key workers etc 

Many parents are still both working and when it comes it nursery age kids who need a lot of attention it’s very hard and prob for many impossible to work and look after a 1-4 year old child - and these kids aren’t at that home schooling age yet 

That’s why they have kept nurseries open - it’s helping keeping people working who are having to still work. 

Throughout this whole pandemic our nursery have had one potential case where a member of staff had to self isolate due to contact unrelated to the nursery 

If it wasn’t a safe setting then they would be closed - if people are worried about working in one they then can go on furlough etc 

It’s very hard to remove the personal experience and worries from it all
		
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With you here Phil

Eldest nursey has had since September just one parent test postive (last week) who's kid is negative so school hasn't shut

30 kids max 20 a session I think 

Today is 7

Wife has been sending her in so far as it's good for her development but also with the twins being under 5 months it's hard to entertain her and look after them when I'm working 

Fully support whatever she decides


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## SaintHacker (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there a lot of families still working , front line workers , key workers etc

Many parents are still both working and when it comes it nursery age kids who need a lot of attention it’s very hard and prob for many impossible to work and look after a 1-4 year old child - and these kids aren’t at that home schooling age yet

That’s why they have kept nurseries open - it’s helping keeping people working who are having to still work.

Throughout this whole pandemic our nursery have had one potential case where a member of staff had to self isolate due to contact unrelated to the nursery

If it wasn’t a safe setting then they would be closed - if people are worried about working in one they then can go on furlough etc

It’s very hard to remove the personal experience and worries from it all
		
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They all managed OK back in the spring, why is this ti,e round any different? And no they can't furlough their workers, because they have so may children in they need a full staff coverage to legally remain open.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I wonder on how many who “insist” on taking or say they “need“ to take daily exercise were taking it this time last year?

Great for the health of the Nation if we are getting fitter, but I’m not sure we are.

Obviously this excludes the majority of Dog owners.
		
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Based on my entirely unscientific survey of walking the dog regularly, in lockdown 1 in spring the numbers out walking that never went out before was off the scale. Families were out in full, not just mum and dad. This time around it is back to us dog walkers and the occasional older couple who I see taking a regular walk. The fair weather walkers have largely disappeared. The weather has a lot to do with this of course but equally the novelty has long since worn off.

I think, like you, if the nation has maintained last April / May levels of outdoor walking, running, cycling then we would be better for it.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because there a lot of families still working , front line workers , key workers etc

Many parents are still both working and when it comes it nursery age kids who need a lot of attention it’s very hard and prob for many impossible to work and look after a 1-4 year old child - and these kids aren’t at that home schooling age yet

That’s why they have kept nurseries open - it’s helping keeping people working who are having to still work.

Throughout this whole pandemic our nursery have had one potential case where a member of staff had to self isolate due to contact unrelated to the nursery

If it wasn’t a safe setting then they would be closed - if people are worried about working in one they then can go on furlough etc

It’s very hard to remove the personal experience and worries from it all
		
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working whilst home schooling! It’s impossible to do, especially from a final salary pension ivory tower.
How are my kids going to suffer, and those at exam age in future years because of this gap in their education?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			They all managed OK back in the spring, why is this ti,e round any different? And no they can't furlough their workers, because they have so may children in they need a full staff coverage to legally remain open.
		
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Because more work places are open so less parents at home


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Because more work places are open so less parents at home
		
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More work places open, because they realise if they shut the doors this time, they won’t open again. it’s not a case of furlough covering wages, what about lost income


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			More work places open, because they realise if they shut the doors this time, they won’t open again. it’s not a case of furlough covering wages, what about lost income
		
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Also a lot more industries have classes themselves key workers


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			They all managed OK back in the spring, why is this ti,e round any different? And no they can't furlough their workers, because they have so may children in they need a full staff coverage to legally remain open.
		
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Back in spring how many more people were on furlough? Most of the country was put on furlough - it was only the key workers still in. 

Both my wife and I had to take a lot of holiday to look the daughter as we were both still working . The nursery could have stayed open for key workers only but it wasn’t financially viable - we still paid a percentage of our fees to help them out. 

This time many more people are still continuing to work and more kids into nursery helps them stay financially viable.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm agreeing with LP I need to take a break and look in the mirror something's off today 🤣


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Also a lot more industries have classes themselves key workers
		
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I’m lucky I can work from home, our production sites can’t. If they’re closed I have no med/long term work.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			working whilst home schooling! It’s impossible to do, especially from a final salary pension ivory tower.
How are my kids going to suffer, and those at exam age in future years because of this gap in their education?
		
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We are all in this together though, people are suffering at every age, every day.

The sooner we beat this thing the sooner we can rectify some of the issues.

The sooner we beat it, the sooner we can look at the kids.

The sooner we beat it, the more time the kids will have in their lives and more people to share it with.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m lucky I can work from home, our production sites can’t. If they’re closed I have no med/long term work.
		
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My mates company her warehouse and delivery team have been classes key workers 

Yet they won't let sales and admin work from home ...

Even tho they can 

Companies like this need addressing


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My mates company her warehouse and delivery team have been classes key workers

Yet they won't let sales and admin work from home ...

Even tho they can

Companies like this need addressing
		
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Agreed, more can work from home, infrastructure dependent


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			working whilst home schooling! It’s impossible to do, *especially from a final salary pension ivory tower.*
How are my kids going to suffer, and those at exam age in future years because of this gap in their education?
		
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What ? I’m not sure what’s that about ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			How do you know their not in support bubbles or live together?

Home base is DIY that's open

Halfords is car essienals and bikes which they want us to use more to avoid public transport

*Stop looking for outrage.*

Click to expand...

Bottom line on *this*.  Are we or are we not concerned about the number of people going to stores and therefore risking infection by, or of, others?

Whether an individual considers their visit to a store 'essential' is a separate question.  At present there are many stores currently open that were not previously open - or which were open they had very significant access control in place.   If we could not visit these stores as normal Lockdown #1 and we coped, then I wonder on what grounds do visits to them now become essential.

On Halfords.  Yes previously our local Halfords was open - but you had to queue outside. You had to know pretty much exactly what you wanted as an assistant would take your order at the door (with you remaining outside) and go get it for you. You could not just roll-up and go in as I can do today if I so choose.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			We are all in this together though, people are suffering at every age, every day.

The sooner we beat this thing the sooner we can rectify some of the issues.

The sooner we beat it, the sooner we can look at the kids.

The sooner we beat it, the more time the kids will have in their lives and more people to share it with.
		
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Agreed. There’s no alternative currently......but I see a lot on here from the older demographic asking for schools to be shut, nursery’s to be closed, work to be stopped. Is there really an awareness of what this could cause? Not only mortgaging ourselves economically but also educationally. I still believe there is mileage in an extension of shielding but that ship may have sailed


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What ? I’m not sure what’s that about ?
		
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Not aimed at you. Most calling for complete shut down have no financial exposure


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Not aimed at you. Most calling for complete shut down have no financial exposure
		
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I’m not sure most also have an appreciation of what this is doing to my heating bill!!!! I send my kids to school so I can turn it off during the day !!!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I think schools and nurseries should be closed except for kids of "real" (for lack of a better word) key workers.

For everyone else, furlough should be there for people to take if needed to look after and/or home school their kids even if they'd otherwise be able to WFH and not be eligible. Preferably allow it to be split between parents so they can work part-time and furlough the rest so they can share the responsibility.

There's not a good solution to cover all the angles, unfortunately.
		
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Unions have said this should happen but has been ignored 

It is an option


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Based on my entirely unscientific survey of walking the dog regularly, in lockdown 1 in spring the numbers out walking that never went out before was off the scale. Families were out in full, not just mum and dad. This time around it is back to us dog walkers and the occasional older couple who I see taking a regular walk. The fair weather walkers have largely disappeared. The weather has a lot to do with this of course but equally the novelty has long since worn off.

I think, like you, if the nation has maintained last April / May levels of outdoor walking, running, cycling then we would be better for it.
		
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We have a large influx of new years resolution joggers it seems, gone from 0-1 per dog walk pre xmas to 4 or 5 minimum this last few days. Lets see how long they last


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## road2ruin (Jan 11, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I think schools and nurseries should be closed except for kids of "real" (for lack of a better word) key workers.

For everyone else, furlough should be there for people to take if needed to look after and/or home school their kids even if they'd otherwise be able to WFH and not be eligible. Preferably allow it to be split between parents so they can work part-time and furlough the rest so they can share the responsibility.

There's not a good solution to cover all the angles, unfortunately.
		
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Agree, floodgates for 'key workers' has been opened and I don't really blame anyone for taking advantage, I'd be lying if I wouldn't be tempted if there was a way of either of us being classed as such.

Fortunately for us my wife's company have agreed to furlough her for an initial period of 4 weeks so she can take over the home schooling. Even if they then recall her at the end of that period it will have taken a huge amount of pressure off us and we'll just cobble something together for the remaining period.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2021)

Kaz said:



			I think schools and nurseries should be closed except for kids of "real" (for lack of a better word) key workers.

For everyone else, furlough should be there for people to take if needed to look after and/or home school their kids even if they'd otherwise be able to WFH and not be eligible. Preferably allow it to be split between parents so they can work part-time and furlough the rest so they can share the responsibility.

There's not a good solution to cover all the angles, unfortunately.
		
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The problem is nursery’s aren’t financially viable to be open just for a small amount , that was part of the issue back in March when they could have stayed open - they need a specific amount to ensure they can keep open - if they can’t then the children of those front line and key workers will be at home - it’s a vicious circle 

I also think we need to take a step back as well and see the reaction from the restrictions that were only put in place 6 days ago - I think a lot are reacting to the recent numbers


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## GB72 (Jan 11, 2021)

I also think that part of the issue with places being open is that, at the beginning of the first lockdown, companies did not have a plan nor the facilities in place for social distancing and so many opted not to open even though they could. Skip on a number of months and they are all set up to run within the regulations and so are now open. Certainly I think that a few places opted not to open in the first lockdown due to this (and also because we had no idea how long this would run for) and have opened this time because they are set up to operate in these conditions.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

With such an interlinked supply chain now it is very hard to define key workers. It sounds obvious, it can be tricky. 

The partner of a woman at work works in a cardbaord box factory in the warehouse. Some of the boxes go to food production factories so he is classed as a key worker. Anyone could do his job, it is unskilled, but he gets lumped in as key.  It's a bit like the game, 6 degrees of separation from Kevin Bacon. If people really pushed it most could claim key worker status if they wanted to.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			We have a large influx of new years resolution joggers it seems, gone from 0-1 per dog walk pre xmas to 4 or 5 minimum this last few days. Lets see how long they last 

Click to expand...

Well, this year they can't join a gym can they? . 

edit. oops, just seen the post from Kaz.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm one who do insist on getting my daily exercise outdoors, despite not exercising that much at this time last year. I will not sit inside a 1 bedroom flat for 8-10 weeks straight besides going to the shop which is a 30 sec walk from the flat. I do not drive anywhere to exercise, I do not speak to anyone and I do not get close to anyone when I go for my daily walk or run. If anyone thinks that selfish, well so be it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Think this is a annual event in non-pandemic times. Although gyms might be mourning the loss of new membership fees from people who'll only go a couple of times..... 

Click to expand...

Yes and No tbh Karen, we’ve had the extras from the Gyms closed, but definitely more runners and dog walkers than the normal New Years resolution crowd.

This lot may last until the lockdown ends.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I'm one who do insist on getting my daily exercise outdoors, despite not exercising that much at this time last year. I will not sit inside a 1 bedroom flat for 8-10 weeks straight besides going to the shop which is a 30 sec walk from the flat. I do not drive anywhere to exercise, I do not speak to anyone and I do not get close to anyone when I go for my daily walk or run. If anyone thinks that selfish, well so be it.
		
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I would guess that part of your normal daily exercise was going to work (we shouldn’t under estimate that part at all) 

I’m more talking about those who now talk about it as if they are training for the Olympics.

It’s recognised the importance for mental health alone, but we also know that once the lockdown is over, the most daily exercise they’ll do is to the local pub and back and some of the poor dogs will get no further than the back yard 4-5 times a week.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes and No tbh Karen, we’ve had the extras from the Gyms closed, but definitely more runners and dog walkers than the normal New Years resolution crowd.

This lot may last until the lockdown ends.

Click to expand...

I wonder if part of that is because group running is currently not allowed? Whether club runners or fun runners, people who may have run on one night in one location are suddenly split up and spread out. It looks as though more are out and about.

People who are now working from home, not commuting and chatting to co-workers, may also need a walk / run to clear their heads. I could certainly understand that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

Mrs got sent a video put together by an ICT teacher that makes quite plainly clear the frustrations and angers of many teachers over the current situation.  I can't post it as it contains too many criticisms of Gavler (as he calls him so you get the tone) and Gavler's boss.  But of many things that made me 'smile' albeit wryly, was that this teacher thinks that for many parents the definition of a 'Key Worker' is 'Someone who has a Job'.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I wonder if part of that is because group running is currently not allowed? Whether club runners or fun runners, people who may have run on one night in one location are suddenly split up and spread out. It looks as though more are out and about.

People who are now working from home, not commuting and chatting to co-workers, may also need a walk / run to clear their heads. I could certainly understand that.
		
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Could also those travelling to the coast to run, place is busier than summer at times.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Could also those travelling to the coast to run, place is busier than summer at times.

Click to expand...

There is logic in that. The coast is not muddy, whether going along the promenade, beach etc. In the summer you could walk through fields, paths, woodland etc. Now those areas are mudbaths and not a lot of fun.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is logic in that. The coast is not muddy, whether going along the promenade, beach etc. In the summer you could walk through fields, paths, woodland etc. Now those areas are mudbaths and not a lot of fun.
		
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One of the routes we take walking to the beach goes onto a footpath at the back of Whitley Bay GC. Last time we went that way, it was a proper mudbath. That was early Dec. Saw some pictures the greenkeepers had posted on FB at the w/e - it's no longer a mudbath, it's now a proper river!

If we want a decent walk with the dog, the beach is the only option at the moment. The exception was Saturday morning when, thanks to it being -6 overnight, it was possible to get round the fields first thing as everything was frozen solid.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 11, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The Daily Mail running a total scare story on their site today about how far new lockdown measures could go.   It's not far short of suggesting martial law.  Appalling "journalism" but what would you expect from them?
Then they add a ton of provocative comments to promote click bait.[/QUOT

Martial law was the only thing that made sense to me at the beginning. 
Still is. 
I don’t believe you have to be a politician or chief medical officer to that work that out unless somebody can explain otherwise? 
sure it’d of been quicker and cheaper.
		
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## IanM (Jan 11, 2021)

Just seen a clip on the TV news of the Police smashing down the doors of a pub, where folk were inside "drinking as usual."


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## PNWokingham (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With respect - you directed your 'reflect' comment personally to me as an individual churchgoer - and not at the governments decisions in respect of places of worship. 

My comment in respect of the Pet Supermarket was simply that it was one of three stores - the other two being Homebase and Halfords - in the same location - indeed sharing the same car park.  I could have walked straight through the door of the Pet store without having any essential need to do so - and is that not actually the issue in respect of stores that remain open.
		
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for sake of repeating myself again - what is to stop you going into Halfords or Fredo Fancies is the law!! it says you go if you need to - and this also allows you to grab a takeaway coffee, which we do regularly in very safely organised segreagated local coffee shops. 

What is your problem with three shops remaining open in one small location? I cannot see any way that is bad. How would you define which one should stay open and which two should close? What would this concentration in goods' availability do to social distancing? Would this increase or decrease concentrations of people buying their essentials? 

The personal element was there in my response as it was directed at *you *and what *you said *and the church element because, personally, as mentioned, i think the law is wrong here and you are an avid church goer who is always sharp on criticising things that are allowed and i wanted to add some context


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## Jimaroid (Jan 11, 2021)

Not posted on this topic for a while but today was the first day of "online learning" in 2021 day for my daughter as part of latest Scottish stay-at-home.

My wife works in the NHS, I've been working from home since it all started but this morning was a new low of emotions for me. I really feel for the teachers, it's a complete shambles. 

Don't know what else to say, I'm just depressed and almost came to tears helping my daughter attempt to speak to her teacher via Teams this morning.

Would love to find the best of this situation but not seeing one.


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## road2ruin (Jan 11, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Not posted on this topic for a while but today was the first day of "online learning" in 2021 day for my daughter as part of latest Scottish stay-at-home.

My wife works in the NHS, I've been working from home since it all started but this morning was a new low of emotions for me. I really feel for the teachers, it's a complete shambles. 

Don't know what else to say, I'm just depressed and almost came to tears helping my daughter attempt to speak to her teacher via Teams this morning.

Would love to find the best of this situation but not seeing one.
		
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I have found the the easiest way to cope is to decide exactly what your expectations are of your daughters learning for that day and then immediately reduce it by half. I'm not sure how old yours is however mine is 6 and she has days when she appears to be a child genius and then days where you wonder how she copes with even the most basic of tasks. Today we did were doing number bonds up to 25. It was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had for a while and really showed by I don't have the attributes to be a teacher. She just sat there at stared blankly even though I know she can do it, there seemed to be a complete unwillingness to try. 

In Lockdown 1.0 this would have resulted in a huge argument on both sides however this time I just call it quits and we move onto something else, in this case I read her a story. It just diffuses the situation and you accept that today we will not be scaling the educational highs!!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Talk in the queue at nursey of them shutting, the mum's really don't want them too, what else are we going to do with them whilst we work from home

Only 5 kids this afternoon 

One mum did say she's upped her kid to all week now their spaces. That was a bit naughty but hey within the rules so no judgement


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Not posted on this topic for a while but today was the first day of "online learning" in 2021 day for my daughter as part of latest Scottish stay-at-home.

My wife works in the NHS, I've been working from home since it all started but this morning was a new low of emotions for me. I really feel for the teachers, it's a complete shambles. 

Don't know what else to say, I'm just depressed and almost came to tears helping my daughter attempt to speak to her teacher via Teams this morning.

Would love to find the best of this situation but not seeing one.
		
Click to expand...

during the first lockdown, me and mainly missis T did massive amounts of home school work with the kids. But were both retired and we both had the time.  They could of gone to school seeing as mums a Bobby but we had them.
This time round me and Missis T have had  Covid and are knackered. We just cannot help to home school the kids. Part of the problem for me is some parents have no interest what so ever in doing any school work with the kids and others want to do all of the school work and it just is not possible For some. At the moment you are juggling balls. Them balls being NHS work, working from home and home schooling. Your working from home and NHS are the main balls. Don’t drop them. Home schooling is not a target. Me I would speak to the school, explain the situation that you are doing as much as you can. They will understand. Home schooling is not a competition.👍


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Estate agents just been mentioned to look at closing tbh I fully agree 

Sorry if you are one

But they are litterally open to keep the economy that's propped up by artificial house prices going ... It's not essienal to move


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			for sake of repeating myself again - what is to stop you going into Halfords or Fredo Fancies is the law!! it says you go if you need to - and this also allows you to grab a takeaway coffee, which we do regularly in very safely organised segreagated local coffee shops.

*What is your problem with three shops remaining open in one small location? I cannot see any way that is bad. How would you define which one should stay open and which two should close? What would this concentration in goods' availability do to social distancing? Would this increase or decrease concentrations of people buying their essentials?*

The personal element was there in my response as it was directed at *you *and what *you said *and the church element because, personally, as mentioned, i think the law is wrong here and you are an avid church goer who is always sharp on criticising things that are allowed and i wanted to add some context
		
Click to expand...

My point is whether or not they *need *to be fully open as they are if it is critical as Whitty tells us that we MUST reduce the opportunities and contexts that result in individuals from many different households coming into contact with the risk of infection; that it critical that we MUST reduce and absolutely minimise the times we leave our homes - and therefore we should remove as fa as possible the attraction to leave our homes.

If I have to stand in a Q outside a store in the cold and rain - I might thing twice about whether or not I actually need what I am after buying from the store.  I might instead not bother - or I might find an alternative way of buying what I need that does not need me to leave my home.

I too think the law is wrong in respect of churches and others places of worship being open - and that is despite me knowing how very important it is for many.   Some might think churches being open is 'essential'.  On balance I do not.


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Estate agents just been mentioned to look at closing tbh I fully agree

Sorry if you are one

But they are litterally open to keep the economy that's propped up by artificial house prices going ... It's not essienal to move
		
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For 90% of moves this is probably true, but there are some people who have no choice but to move and this has to be facilitated to some degree. What should change imho is the governments guidance but highly unlikely unless Rishi extends the stamp duty holiday (they shouldve agreed to extend it by however long this 3rd lockdown is imho)


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			For 90% of moves this is probably true, but there are some people who have no choice but to move and this has to be facilitated to some degree. What should change imho is the governments guidance but highly unlikely unless Rishi extends the stamp duty holiday (they shouldve agreed to extend it by however long this 3rd lockdown is imho)
		
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My neighbour however has taken the Micheal out of the whole situation 

Moving because and I quote "been here 11 years. Bored now fancy a change"

Purple bricks used.. and then did visits one after the other litterally could tag team them

Guidelines completely ignored


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My neighbour however has taken the Micheal out of the whole situation

Moving because and I quote "been here 11 years. Bored now fancy a change"

Purple bricks used.. and then did visits one after the other litterally could tag team them

Guidelines completely ignored
		
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And like everything, there is always a small percentage of idiots.

Were stuck waiting and not knowing whether we are or arent going to be moving (having agreed our sale on Sept 1st!)


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## Jimaroid (Jan 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I have found the the easiest way to cope is to decide exactly what your expectations are of your daughters learning for that day and then immediately reduce it by half. I'm not sure how old yours is however mine is 6 and she has days when she appears to be a child genius and then days where you wonder how she copes with even the most basic of tasks. Today we did were doing number bonds up to 25. It was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had for a while and really showed by I don't have the attributes to be a teacher. She just sat there at stared blankly even though I know she can do it, there seemed to be a complete unwillingness to try.

In Lockdown 1.0 this would have resulted in a huge argument on both sides however this time I just call it quits and we move onto something else, in this case I read her a story. It just diffuses the situation and you accept that today we will not be scaling the educational highs!!
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, mine's 8 and I recognise that frustration well. I just hate myself for the times where I'm saying "I'm busy" because I'm trying to context switch between my work stress and her school stress. Thanks for the thoughts, it's just tough, we're OK. I'm frustrated, the online learning could be so much better if they had the skills and resources available, but as it is, I just want to walk down the road and put a brick through the window of the little "£$%"£$ that won't mute his mic. 

P.S. If anyone reads about that happening in a newspaper soon, it wasn't me.


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is whether or not they *need *to be fully open as they are if it is critical as Whitty tells us that we MUST reduce the opportunities and contexts that result in individuals from many different households coming into contact with the risk of infection; that it critical that we MUST reduce and absolutely minimise the times we leave our homes - and therefore we should remove as fa as possible the attraction to leave our homes.

If I have to stand in a Q outside a store in the cold and rain - I might thing twice about whether or not I actually need what I am after buying from the store.  I might instead not bother - or I might find an alternative way of buying what I need that does not need me to leave my home.

I too think the law is wrong in respect of churches and others places of worship being open - and that is despite me knowing how very important it is for many.   Some might think churches being open is 'essential'.  On balance I do not.
		
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Suggest you listen to the good Professor on BBC Breakfast who suggest you look at your own compliance and not worry about those who makeup their own interpretation of the rules.


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## Imurg (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Estate agents just been mentioned to look at closing tbh I fully agree

Sorry if you are one

But they are litterally open to keep the economy that's propped up by artificial house prices going ... It's not essienal to move
		
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But it is essential to complete house purchases that have already begun so Fragger can empty my garage of various white goods, lawnmower and fishing equipment. 
Some time this year


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## AmandaJR (Jan 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Suggest you listen to the good Professor on BBC Breakfast who suggest you look at your own compliance and not worry about those who makeup their own interpretation of the rules.
		
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His answers were top rate and that one in particular!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Suggest you listen to the good Professor on BBC Breakfast who suggest you look at your own compliance and not worry about those who makeup their own interpretation of the rules.
		
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Such a good point


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## Crazyface (Jan 11, 2021)

Just a couple of things....

1. I've been shouting at the TV for months now at why London and the South hasn't had high infections. The most densely populated part of the country is escaping the virus. Then lo and behold.....Surrey now emerges as the most infected part of the country and London is in a mess and riddled with the virus. What a bluddy surprise! 
I'm not often wrong and I'm right again.

2. Then, the other day at work at Morrisons, the Home Delivery team were called together by the store manager who then informed us that the hours we had been given were now slashed back to contract hours. This was because Morrison "do this every year" in an attempt to improve the last quarters figures so that the shareholders get a nice dividend. So cheers Morrisons for kicking your staff in the teeth for all their hard work and putting yourselves in danger during the lockdown.

Please, if possible, could you not shop at Morrisons during the last quarter. 

Thanks


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## Crazyface (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Such a good point
		
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No it's not! It's why people are ignoring what has been asked of them. If one person can do what they want, so can we all. And that's what's happening.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			But it is essential to complete house purchases that have already begun so Fragger can empty my garage of various white goods, lawnmower and fishing equipment.
Some time this year

Click to expand...

Ah ! so you're really not your brothers keeper


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Just a couple of things....

1. I've been shouting at the TV for months now at why London and the South hasn't had high infections. The most densely populated part of the country is escaping the virus. Then lo and behold.....Surrey now emerges as the most infected part of the country and London is in a mess and riddled with the virus. What a bluddy surprise!
I'm not often wrong and I'm right again.

2. Then, the other day at work at Morrisons, the Home Delivery team were called together by the store manager who then informed us that the hours we had been given were now slashed back to contract hours. This was because Morrison "do this every year" in an attempt to improve the last quarters figures so that the shareholders get a nice dividend. So cheers Morrisons for kicking your staff in the teeth for all their hard work and putting yourselves in danger during the lockdown.

Please, if possible, could you not shop at Morrisons during the last quarter.

Thanks
		
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Do they know you’ve got unsupervised access??


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Both your latter examples are key workers tho? So don't understand that comment
		
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Basically everyone’s job can be classed as key if you look long enough for a reason.
How’s an accountant a key worker?


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## SaintHacker (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Talk in the queue at nursey of them shutting, the mum's really don't want them too, what else are we going to do with them whilst we work from home

Only 5 kids this afternoon

One mum did say she's upped her kid to all week now their spaces. That was a bit naughty but hey within the rules so no judgement
		
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29 in at my wifes setting. Absolutely not all key workers, some she knows for a fact are stay at home mums who just want their little bundles of potential virus out the way for a few hours. Utterly irresponsible.


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Basically everyone’s job can be classed as key if you look long enough for a reason.
How’s an accountant a key worker?
		
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If an accountant is needed to ensure a critical business is able to stay open (paying staff, suppliers etc) then I can see why the job could be considered as such, hard to see how it cant be done almost 100% remotely these days though


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## DRW (Jan 11, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Just a couple of things....

1. I've been shouting at the TV for months now at why London and the South hasn't had high infections. The most densely populated part of the country is escaping the virus. Then lo and behold.....Surrey now emerges as the most infected part of the country and London is in a mess and riddled with the virus. What a bluddy surprise!
*I'm not often wrong* and I'm right again.

2. Then, the other day at work at Morrisons, the Home Delivery team were called together by the store manager who then informed us that the hours we had been given were now slashed back to contract hours. This was because Morrison "do this every year" in an attempt to improve the last quarters figures so that the shareholders get a nice dividend. So cheers Morrisons for kicking your staff in the teeth for all their hard work and putting yourselves in danger during the lockdown.

Please, if possible, could you not shop at Morrisons during the last quarter.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

The only time I remember you being wrong is the hotel booking for sunningdale or thinking about it, the second time was that car parks are important for a golf course


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Basically everyone’s job can be classed as key if you look long enough for a reason.
How’s an accountant a key worker?
		
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I don't know, even our payroll are working from.home and that is key because without money I'm not going in


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2021)

Sir David King really ought to do some research before he starts on his normal line of criticism. He’s just said that the military clinical staff should be involved in helping in vaccinating the population.

One - they are
Two - the majority these days are reservists who already work in the NHS

To busy running everyone down.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			29 in at my wifes setting. Absolutely not all key workers, some she knows for a fact are stay at home mums who just want their little bundles of potential virus out the way for a few hours. Utterly irresponsible.
		
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People can see the change in their kids at the same time tho. Stunts their development and they become nightmares stuck in doors

Can understand why people send them in

Maybe should if not key workers reduce to say I dunno one day a week just to keep their development I don't know


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Suggest you listen to the good Professor on BBC Breakfast who suggest you look at your own compliance and not worry about those who makeup their own interpretation of the rules.
		
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I am quite capable of keeping my own side of the street clean and believe we act as fully compliant as we can without looking to see what we can do within the rules - rather we stay at home and only leave for a short walk for exercise and on that walk we will pick up a few essentials of we need them replenished at a local store.  But whilst I can do my bit I am dependent upon others also doing their part and the government doing it's part in setting the rules and the laws to guide and manage us.

And of _course _I worry about all those who make up their own interpretation of the rules - stretching, pushing and breaking the boundaries of these rules - because through the actions of us all is the virus spread minimised in my community and the country - and my life is constrained as it is and will continue to be constrained until we get this under control.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Agreed. There’s no alternative currently......but I see a lot on here from the older demographic asking for schools to be shut, nursery’s to be closed, work to be stopped. Is there really an awareness of what this could cause? Not only mortgaging ourselves economically but also educationally. I still believe there is mileage in an extension of shielding but that ship may have sailed
		
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The latest is that we need a month or so for the vulnerable 65 and above to be  vaccinated and then the NHS pressure will ease very much indeed.
 So, no schooling for a month is a reasonable price to pay.
If kids can have the holidays they do normally, then they can recover from another month off. 
Normal times, such time off is indefensible.
State we are in now, unprecedented, the time off is vital.
That ,together with everyone obeying the rules may give us a chance.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			during the first lockdown, me and mainly missis T did massive amounts of home school work with the kids. But were both retired and we both had the time.  They could of gone to school seeing as mums a Bobby but we had them.
This time round me and Missis T have had  Covid and are knackered. We just cannot help to home school the kids. Part of the problem for me is some parents have no interest what so ever in doing any school work with the kids and others want to do all of the school work and it just is not possible For some. At the moment you are juggling balls. Them balls being NHS work, working from home and home schooling. Your working from home and NHS are the main balls. Don’t drop them. Home schooling is not a target. Me I would speak to the school, explain the situation that you are doing as much as you can. They will understand. Home schooling is not a competition.👍
		
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This is why I can’t understand why teachers are so low in the list for the vaccine.
If we  want schools open the adults in the school need protecting, or the school partially shuts .
It’s basics imo to put school staff not just teachers right behind front line staff.


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am quite capable of keeping my own side of the street clean and believe we act as fully compliant as we can without looking to see what we can do within the rules - rather we stay at home and only leave for a short walk for exercise and on that walk we will pick up a few essentials of we need them replenished at a local store.  But whilst I can do my bit I am dependent upon others also doing their part and the government doing it's part in setting the rules and the laws to guide and manage us.
		
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You are less dependent on others actions if you follow the proper actions. You seem to be more focused on what others are doing. If you are that concerned report them.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			If an accountant is needed to ensure a critical business is able to stay open (paying staff, suppliers etc) then I can see why the job could be considered as such, hard to see how it cant be done almost 100% remotely these days though
		
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Yes but that reasoning could make any job key if you look long enough.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			You are less dependent on others actions if you follow the proper actions. You seem to be more focused on what others are doing. If you are that concerned report them.
		
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Others who are complying with the Government rules/guidelines, but that annoys him.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is why I can’t understand why teachers are so low in the list for the vaccine.
If we  want schools open the adults in the school need protecting, or the school partially shuts .
It’s basics imo to put school staff not just teachers right behind front line staff.
		
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I've heard a few rumours that key workers will be done within the initial 9


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is why I can’t understand why teachers are so low in the list for the vaccine.
If we  want schools open the adults in the school need protecting, or the school partially shuts .
It’s basics imo to put school staff not just teachers right behind front line staff.
		
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Im not sure why you feel teachers are low down in the priority. The experts, not the politicians have continued to say that they are no more likely to die from the virus than any other person within their age group unless we have a load of 80 year old teachers.

People have already pointed out on here the problem of “priority workers children “ who is going to make the decision on priority jobs for vaccination. They have already said that they will review the priorities when they get past the 4th level,and I suspect teachers, police, armed forces and others will be boosted up the list.

The fact that 80% of deaths are in the over 80’s needs to be taken int consideration.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure why you feel teachers are low down in the priority. The experts, not the politicians have continued to say that they are no more likely to die from the virus than any other person within their age group unless we have a load of 80 year old teachers.

People have already pointed out on here the problem of “priority workers children “ who is going to make the decision on priority jobs for vaccination. They have already said that they will review the priorities when they get past the 4th level,and I suspect teachers, police, armed forces and others will be boosted up the list.

The fact that 80% of deaths are in the over 80’s needs to be taken int consideration.
		
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Also people seen fixated on the vaccine and how it's a saviour.. yet at the same time they want to get back to normal 

Once they do the initial 9 lot they will reduce restrictions ... However covid will be able to rip through the general population but those most likely to end up in hospital will be protected by the vaccine 

So a healthy 30 year old teacher will have just as much chance of getting covid after restrictions are lifted 

Plus kids won't be given the vaccine so those who worry about your kids erm they will still have the same risk once everyone is done just it will be about less 

I hope people just keep up good hygiene after all this


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I also think that part of the issue with places being open is that, at the beginning of the first lockdown, companies did not have a plan nor the facilities in place for social distancing and so many opted not to open even though they could. Skip on a number of months and they are all set up to run within the regulations and so are now open. Certainly I think that a few places opted not to open in the first lockdown due to this (and also because we had no idea how long this would run for) and have opened this time because they are set up to operate in these conditions.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with relying on social distancing is that, mostly, *indoors, *it is irrelevant.
If the air in the room is being breathed time and again by all, then it doesn't matter too much how far away you are.
Aerosol effect is what is driving this virus, especially the new variant, and this is not being recognised enough. Offices are not the place to be, even if the desks etc are 2 metres apart. 
The first lockdown scenario is our best chance, in this respect


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 11, 2021)

Just need my learned colleagues on here to provide some clarification please.

1. I go away abroad for 4 weeks and when I return I need to self isolate for 10 days unless I have a further test and if negative it is reduced to 5 days. When Celtic return from abroad , apart from being elite sportsmen why do they not need to self isolate?

2. Why are footballers allowed to ”hug’ in groups up to say 8 when a goal is score and when they are substituted invariably shake hands?


Suppose both could be related to the number of cases footballers are more than proportional to the number involved compared with the rest of the country


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Just need my learned colleagues on here to provide some clarification please.

1. I go away abroad for 4 weeks and when I return I need to self isolate for 10 days unless I have a further test and if negative it is reduced to 5 days. When Celtic return from abroad , apart from being elite sportsmen why do they not need to self isolate?

2. Why are footballers allowed to ”hug’ in groups up to say 8 when a goal is score and when they are substituted invariably shake hands?


Suppose both could be related to the number of cases footballers are more than proportional to the number involved compared with the rest of the country
		
Click to expand...

I presume it’s because they are under a regular testing regime and they have “strict” protocols in place . It’s all very strange but follow the money.

I am however grateful as it means I keep control of the remote.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Just need my learned colleagues on here to provide some clarification please.

1. I go away abroad for 4 weeks and when I return I need to self isolate for 10 days unless I have a further test and if negative it is reduced to 5 days. When Celtic return from abroad , apart from being elite sportsmen why do they not need to self isolate?

2. Why are footballers allowed to ”hug’ in groups up to say 8 when a goal is score and when they are substituted invariably shake hands?


Suppose both could be related to the number of cases footballers are more than proportional to the number involved compared with the rest of the country
		
Click to expand...

Regular testing for both 

However hugging originally was out but it has been ignored


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The latest is that we need a month or so for the vulnerable 65 and above to be  vaccinated and then the NHS pressure will ease very much indeed.
So, no schooling for a month is a reasonable price to pay.
If kids can have the holidays they do normally, then they can recover from another month off.
Normal times, such time off is indefensible.
State we are in now, unprecedented, the time off is vital.
That ,together with everyone obeying the rules may give us a chance.
		
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It’s not 1 month though is it. 2 months last year & it will be 2 months now. 
That and the fact that the quality of online lessons is not as good as face to face. 
I’m lucky as my kids aren’t taking any exams in the next couple of years. It’s not a small price to pay, it’s maybe unavoidable but should be recognised.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

Ave just managed to book.me mum and dad in for a vaccine this weds and 24th March. They are over 80. Basically you have to register. If it works bearing in mind am not the most technically gifted excellent. Mods if it should not be there for whatever reason..apologies.
Ps. This is the link for nottinghamshire. Dont know about rest of country

https://www.swiftqueue.co.uk/nottin...bBui8sbGGqkvLQp7wAE6yCUr1rp0B6GsiM3XuN3YARg4U


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s not 1 month though is it. 2 months last year & it will be 2 months now. 
That and the fact that the quality of online lessons is not as good as face to face. 
I’m lucky as my kids aren’t taking any exams in the next couple of years. It’s not a small price to pay, it’s maybe unavoidable but should be recognised.
		
Click to expand...

I don't like how some say oh well this kid in a war torn country missed 4 years of school and didn't do them harm

That's one person who prob worked hard and caught up

How to catch up millions of kids? With already overwhelmed teachers


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Ave just managed to book.me mum and dad in for a vaccine this weds and 24th March. They are over 80. Basically you have to register. If it works bearing in mind am not the most technically gifted excellent. Mods if it should not be there for whatever reason..apologies.
Ps. This is the link for nottinghamshire. Dont know about rest of country

https://www.swiftqueue.co.uk/nottin...bBui8sbGGqkvLQp7wAE6yCUr1rp0B6GsiM3XuN3YARg4U

Click to expand...

I thought you only book in if you have received a letter.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I don't like how some say oh well this kid in a war torn country missed 4 years of school and didn't do them harm

That's one person who prob worked hard and caught up

How to catch up millions of kids? With already overwhelmed teachers
		
Click to expand...

Kids will catch up, those that get parental input. Millions won’t though! Also imagine when you were 10, being told you can’t see your mates for  months at a time. It’s tough for them.
People bang on about the selfishness of those that don’t adhere to lockdown, there’s also an inherent selfishness in the expectation that kids & young adults will sacrifice their futures willingly. IMO of course
I’d expect this to be countered by the saving lives line, I get that, but I wouldn’t if I was 16!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Kids will catch up, those that get parental input. Millions won’t though! Also imagine when you were 10, being told you can’t see your mates for  months at a time. It’s tough for them. 
People bang on about the selfishness of those that don’t adhere to lockdown, there’s also an inherent selfishness in the expectation that kids & young adults will sacrifice their futures willingly. IMO of course
		
Click to expand...

I know if it was me I'd of caught up, mum is a teacher and I went a good school

But imagine single parent families who work all day..


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## GB72 (Jan 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The problem with relying on social distancing is that, mostly, *indoors, *it is irrelevant.
If the air in the room is being breathed time and again by all, then it doesn't matter too much how far away you are.
Aerosol effect is what is driving this virus, especially the new variant, and this is not being recognised enough. Offices are not the place to be, even if the desks etc are 2 metres apart.
The first lockdown scenario is our best chance, in this respect
		
Click to expand...

It can be different. Our office is not open plan and so everyone is in their own room. Masks worn everywhere outside of your own office, no going into other offices, contact through the internal phone system only. We had one case if covid in October that did not transmit to anyone else


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The problem with relying on social distancing is that, mostly, *indoors, *it is irrelevant.
If the air in the room is being breathed time and again by all, then it doesn't matter too much how far away you are.
Aerosol effect is what is driving this virus, especially the new variant, and this is not being recognised enough. Offices are not the place to be, even if the desks etc are 2 metres apart. 
The first lockdown scenario is our best chance, in this respect
		
Click to expand...

We have no windows to open

Air con is recycled air only fresh every 3 hours

We had a case 13 had to isolate 4 got it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I don't like how some say oh well this kid in a war torn country missed 4 years of school and didn't do them harm

That's one person who prob worked hard and caught up

How to catch up millions of kids? With already overwhelmed teachers
		
Click to expand...




Leftitshort said:



			Kids will catch up, those that get parental input. Millions won’t though! Also imagine when you were 10, being told you can’t see your mates for  months at a time. It’s tough for them.
People bang on about the selfishness of those that don’t adhere to lockdown, there’s also an inherent selfishness in the expectation that kids & young adults will sacrifice their futures willingly. IMO of course
I’d expect this to be countered by the saving lives line, I get that, but I wouldn’t if I was 16!
		
Click to expand...

I made the comment about the kids in Balkans and thankfully it wasn’t just one kid.

We don’t want one kid to suffer and last week it was pick on Teachers week on here.

The sad reality is, in normal circumstances, kids will have time to recover, many old will not and guess what else, regardless of pandemics, wars or whatever, kids never get a choice about their future and that won’t change, it’s the reason we need those people in positions of authority and power need to ensure that the resources and opportunities are in place to allow all children to get the best chance for their and our future.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I made the comment about the kids in Balkans and thankfully it wasn’t just one kid.

We don’t want one kid to suffer and last week it was pick on Teachers week on here.

The sad reality is, in normal circumstances, kids will have time to recover, many old will not and guess what else, regardless of pandemics, wars or whatever, kids never get a choice about their future and that won’t change, it’s the reason we need those people in positions of authority and power need to ensure that the resources and opportunities are in place to allow all children to get the best chance for their and our future.
		
Click to expand...

I will just like this... If I go in any further detail it will become political


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I made the comment about the kids in Balkans and thankfully it wasn’t just one kid.

We don’t want one kid to suffer and last week it was pick on Teachers week on here.

The sad reality is, in normal circumstances, kids will have time to recover, many old will not and guess what else, regardless of pandemics, wars or whatever, kids never get a choice about their future and that won’t change, it’s the reason we need those people in positions of authority and power need to ensure that the resources and opportunities are in place to allow all children to get the best chance for their and our future.
		
Click to expand...

It’s a complex equation, but I would guarantee to pay for this the budgets to be slashed will be; education, social care & the health service. Hope I’m wrong


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I will just like this... If I go in any further detail it will become political
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, difficult to be diplomatic at times.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s a complex equation, but I would guarantee to pay for this the budgets to be slashed will be; education, social care & the health service. Hope I’m wrong
		
Click to expand...

Those 3 plus a few others should be ring fenced


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## Reemul (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My neighbour however has taken the Micheal out of the whole situation

Moving because and I quote "been here 11 years. Bored now fancy a change"

Purple bricks used.. and then did visits one after the other litterally could tag team them

Guidelines completely ignored
		
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Absolute rubbish. Our house has been for sale for 16 months, our offer in since July 2020. We are looking at exchanging this week and completing in 2 weeks.

We have not seen our new house as a family, we could only visit it twice and only in 2's. All houses we looked at we could not touch anything, could not open anything and have been masked and using anti bac an din 2's only.. We cannot go again to measure up. The restrictions are very rigorous and have been since last March. The same for everyone in our chain.

To sell our house we had to leave the property every time it was viewed, when we had the survey done we had to leave for half a day even though we are working from home, so go sit in the car. Compared to before lock down there has been a massive change and compared to most things zero chance of spreading Covid you see no one and touch nothing.

But you have obviously bought 3 or 4 houses in the last year and have witnessed all this first hand yes.. total nonsense and sums up everything we read in the press and on these forums, Bob said this, Bill said that, I read this I read that. Some people seem daft enough to believe anything rather than actually thinking about and understanding that 1 example of negative behaviour is not reflective of the whole otherwise surely everyone is an moron because i read a few of them everyday when quite rightly I know this is not true.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Those 3 plus a few others should be ring fenced
		
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It’s doesn’t leave much else to cut. Defence, overseas aid, Scotland?? Maybe the latter ?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Absolute rubbish. Our house has been for sale for 16 months, our offer in since July 2020. We are looking at exchanging this week and completing in 2 weeks.

We have not seen our new house as a family, we could only visit it twice and only in 2's. All houses we looked at we could not touch anything, could not open anything and have been masked and using anti bac an din 2's only.. We cannot go again to measure up. The restrictions are very rigorous and have been since last March. The same for everyone in our chain.

To sell our house we had to leave the property every time it was viewed, when we had the survey done we had to leave for half a day even though we are working from home, so go sit in the car. Compared to before lock down there has been a massive change and compared to most things zero chance of spreading Covid you see no one and touch nothing.

But you have obviously bought 3 or 4 houses in the last year and have witnessed all this first hand yes.. total nonsense and sums up everything we read in the press and on these forums, Bob said this, Bill said that, I read this I read that. Some people seem daft enough to believe anything rather than actually thinking about and understanding that 1 example of negative behaviour is not reflective of the whole otherwise surely everyone is an moron because i read a few of them everyday when quite rightly I know this is not true.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but read my post again and actually take it in

My neighbour had visit after visit. No gap in them

He did via purple bricks and managed the appointments himself 

I've seen it over the road aswell with estate agents letting out the house 

Visit one after the other 

Yours may be following the rules but that one wasn't 

And my neighbour did himself and that takes that layer out

They had 5 visits within a 2 hour period.

Oh and wasn't in twos 

Full families, kids aswell. All in and out 

Want Cctv? Ring picked up every visit as the motion set it off when they parked on the shared drive


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## anotherdouble (Jan 11, 2021)

Have they stopped releasing ‘the numbers’ today.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s a complex equation, but I would guarantee to pay for this the budgets to be slashed will be; education, social care & the health service. Hope I’m wrong
		
Click to expand...

I'd be amazed if any dept doesn't have its budget cut. There is going to be a big drop in tax coming in, big bills to pay. I'm not sure any dept will be safe.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I thought you only book in if you have received a letter.
		
Click to expand...

No this has been knocking around for a week now, the site was up but the li k took down as folk were booking under 80,s  that has now been rectified.
If you type kings mill over 80,s clinic on the net it takes you straight to the site.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure why you feel teachers are low down in the priority. The experts, not the politicians have continued to say that they are no more likely to die from the virus than any other person within their age group unless we have a load of 80 year old teachers.

People have already pointed out on here the problem of “priority workers children “ who is going to make the decision on priority jobs for vaccination. They have already said that they will review the priorities when they get past the 4th level,and I suspect teachers, police, armed forces and others will be boosted up the list.

The fact that 80% of deaths are in the over 80’s needs to be taken int consideration.
		
Click to expand...

The list posted on here teachers were quite low.
If not they would not need boosting up the list.
But if we want kids in school we need to vaccinate school staff not just teachers.
This lets people who need to go to work.
My wife and daughter work in schools and by what they tell me schools will not be able to operate if any more staff get the virus or have to self isolate.


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## IainP (Jan 11, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Have they stopped releasing ‘the numbers’ today.
		
Click to expand...


*46,169 new cases* and *529 new deaths* in *the United Kingdom* [source]


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## anotherdouble (Jan 11, 2021)

IainP said:




*46,169 new cases* and *529 new deaths* in *the United Kingdom* [source]


Click to expand...

Thanks


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 11, 2021)

IainP said:




*46,169 new cases* and *529 new deaths* in *the United Kingdom* [source]


Click to expand...

Isn't it scary to think 'that's a good drop in numbers'?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 11, 2021)

A little positive note to spread some cheer. A local Reading woman has set up a crowdfunding page amongst her friends, business associates, tennis club members etc with the sole aim of having a pot of money so we can order pizza (and potentially other take aways in time) for the ICU staff with two deliveries a week (one lunchtime - probably Tuesdays and one in the evening - probably Friday for the night staff). Up to around £6,000 so far so waistlines will be growing. Great gesture we're hoping to share with ED and other departments as this rolls out fully


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Isn't it scary to think 'that's a good drop in numbers'?
		
Click to expand...

Normally a drop at weekends when reporting doesn't always filter through


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I don't like how some say oh well this kid in a war torn country missed 4 years of school and didn't do them harm

That's one person who prob worked hard and caught up

How to catch up millions of kids? With already overwhelmed teachers
		
Click to expand...

Why can't they cancel the Summer School Holidays and the kids catch up then, hopefully things will be a bit better later.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 11, 2021)

Sister in law (front line care worker) has jist had a vaccine appointment through. Hopefully teachers will be soon then 🤞


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Have they stopped releasing ‘the numbers’ today.
		
Click to expand...

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It can be different. Our office is not open plan and so everyone is in their own room. Masks worn everywhere outside of your own office, no going into other offices, contact through the internal phone system only. We had one case if covid in October that did not transmit to anyone else
		
Click to expand...

That is good management, which tends to bear out what I was saying.
But I doubt if most are as mindful as your place.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Sister in law (front line care worker) has jist had a vaccine appointment through. Hopefully teachers will be soon then 🤞
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe Teachers are in a priority list


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			No this has been knocking around for a week now, the site was up but the li k took down as folk were booking under 80,s  that has now been rectified.
If you type kings mill over 80,s clinic on the net it takes you straight to the site.
		
Click to expand...

How did you become aware?  You see, this is important. Both O S and myself, and a lot of others are understanding that the first move will come from NHS contacting each individual when it's your turn.
It seems that if you live in the "catchment area" of one of these Super big vaccine stations, then you can book online, as you did.
So I suppose there is local publicity for the catchment area inviting that.
But , if there is, I haven't seen anything about it in the news etc.
Anyone know the SP on this?


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Why can't they cancel the Summer School Holidays and the kids catch up then, hopefully things will be a bit better later.
		
Click to expand...


Seems too much common sense and good for the kids education for that malarkey!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Why can't they cancel the Summer School Holidays and the kids catch up then, hopefully things will be a bit better later.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing is ever that simple

Half of teachers contracts say their not employed during these times

Would be good tho, give them 2 weeks off then work the rest

Would need to have the cash to pay the teachers though I mean they have worked throughout covid and will need a rest. Maybe offer them cash to come in


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Nothing is ever that simple

Half of teachers contracts say their not employed during these times

Would be good tho, give them 2 weeks off then work the rest

Would need to have the cash to pay the teachers though I mean they have worked throughout covid and will need a rest. Maybe offer them cash to come in
		
Click to expand...

Much of it would be a balancing transaction. Some Teachers would have been paid when Schools were closed and they never went in.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Much of it would be a balancing transaction. Some Teachers would have been paid when Schools were closed and they never went in.
		
Click to expand...

What working from home delivering online lessons? Yeah the slackers


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How did you become aware?  You see, this is important. Both O S and myself, and a lot of others are understanding that the first move will come from NHS contacting each individual when it's your turn.
It seems that if you live in the "catchment area" of one of these Super big vaccine stations, then you can book online, as you did.
So I suppose there is local publicity for the catchment area inviting that.
But , if there is, I haven't seen anything about it in the news etc.
Anyone know the SP on this?
		
Click to expand...

If you remember a couple of days ago i mentioned it was odd how some folk were getting it and others were not. I had been sent a link ( by my brother) but it had since been taken down. Yesterday we had a British legion meeting via messenger. Someone mentioned our branch president had been given the Vaccine. My ears pricked up again. All morning I have been on the phone and spoke to our branch chairman re legion business and he mentioned who had pointed our president in the direction of getting the vaccine. I contacted said lady who mentioned the same company who I was sent a link from last week. I thought hang on. Clicked on the link and it just mentioned re register and book in for vaccines. So I did and there are quite a few appointments available.

I have to say it is a very good system, but there’s a big fat however. I found out through a friend of a friend etc. Nothing official has come through. It all came about through secondary hearsay. Although the system is good. I suspect it is not for 99% of over 80,s re it being internet based. Furthermore it has been on local news that some have already been abusing the system by booking under 80,s in for the vaccine. It also said “ please do not share the website link “ which I already have, but I don’t know why they don’t want it sharing.
One of the reasons I thought it odd how some where getting the vaccine and others not was because like you I thought everyone was being informed via the NHS by letter. Something which was confirmed when my mother called her GP this morning and asked what the procedure was. As far as I am aware this system has not been advertised locally and the vaccine centre is at the local hospital. 
hope it helps


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Maybe they should look at banning the sale of fireworks during covid 

Every other day some idiots letting them off


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What working from home delivering online lessons? Yeah the slackers
		
Click to expand...

You said that, not me.  Try reading and digesting what I posted before making sarcastic comments.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 11, 2021)

Mods can you explain to a thicko like me why this thread has not been shut down for political comments.  Each day more and more political comments are being posted and you appear to be doing sod all about it


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You said that, not me.  Try reading and digesting what I posted before making sarcastic comments.
		
Click to expand...

When you come up with something worth reading I will dw ..


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 11, 2021)

Billy


Del_Boy said:



			Mods can you explain to a thicko like me why this thread has not been shut down for political comments.  Each day more and more political comments are being posted and you appear to be doing sod all about it
		
Click to expand...

There is a report function
Feel free to use it
We have lives and cannot monitor every thread or post

Numerous warnings have been issued and maybe the time has come to start dishing out points and possibly holidays for repeat offenders


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Billy


There is a report function
Feel free to use it
We have lives and cannot monitor every thread or post

Numerous warnings have been issued and maybe the time has come to start dishing out points and possibly holidays for repeat offenders
		
Click to expand...


that time was at least 4 weeks ago for a lot of us


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## Del_Boy (Jan 11, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Billy


There is a report function
Feel free to use it
We have lives and cannot monitor every thread or post

Numerous warnings have been issued and maybe the time has come to start dishing out points and possibly holidays for repeat offenders
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the Mods should issue a daily briefing advising how many infractions have been issued each day.


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

Brother in law tested positive today, rest of the family now being tested. His wife visited her mum and dad the day before his symptoms so a little concerned about the FIL and MIL. FIL has had the vaccine at least. Fingers crossed for the next few days for them


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## Del_Boy (Jan 11, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Billy


There is a report function
Feel free to use it
We have lives and cannot monitor every thread or post

Numerous warnings have been issued and maybe the time has come to start dishing out points and possibly holidays for repeat offenders
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the time has come to either open up officially political posts or shut threads down as soon as there is a hint of a political post.  At the moment there is to much of a grey area


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

Del_Boy said:



			Maybe the time has come to either open up officially political posts or shut threads down as soon as there is a hint of a political post.  At the moment there is to much of a grey area
		
Click to expand...

The former being a much better idea considering its hard at the Best of times to not talk about politics

Then you have one of the biggest political events in history taken place couple weeks ago and a global pandemic

Can't say a word about the politics..

It's a poor policy


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

Del_Boy said:



			Maybe the time has come to either open up officially political posts or shut threads down as soon as there is a hint of a political post.  At the moment there is to much of a grey area
		
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Cant agree with this at all, everyone shouldnt be punished because some cant follow rules that have been told to them umpteen times. There are multiple repeat offenders time after time and they should be dealt with rather than what should be a decent informative thread being closed


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The former being a much better idea considering its hard at the Best of times to not talk about politics

Then you have one of the biggest political events in history taken place couple weeks ago and a global pandemic

Can't say a word about the politics..

It's a poor policy
		
Click to expand...


it might be but the policy is GM and Mikes, not the mods. Its their bat and ball so to speak...

plenty of places to discuss politics on the net if you want to


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## Del_Boy (Jan 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			it might be but the policy is GM and Mikes, not the mods. Its their bat and ball so to speak...

plenty of places to discuss politics on the net if you want to
		
Click to expand...

Hence my asking what is being done about it, not much appears to have changed since old Mike’s locked down political posts thread.  If anything it is now getting worse


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			When you come up with something worth reading I will dw ..
		
Click to expand...

😀


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## pauljames87 (Jan 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			it might be but the policy is GM and Mikes, not the mods. Its their bat and ball so to speak...

plenty of places to discuss politics on the net if you want to
		
Click to expand...

No harm in asking for a change ..

Let's see what Mike has to say about it


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			No harm in asking for a change ..

Let's see what Mike has to say about it
		
Click to expand...


Mikes said it enough times, the policy isnt changing


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## SocketRocket (Jan 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The former being a much better idea considering its hard at the Best of times to not talk about politics

Then you have one of the biggest political events in history taken place couple weeks ago and a global pandemic

Can't say a word about the politics..

It's a poor policy
		
Click to expand...

Shame.  Guess we'll get by though.


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## Del_Boy (Jan 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			Mikes said it enough times, the policy isnt changing
		
Click to expand...

In which case sort out the repeat offenders


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## fundy (Jan 11, 2021)

Del_Boy said:



			In which case sort out the repeat offenders
		
Click to expand...


think thats where i started


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Why can't they cancel the Summer School Holidays and the kids catch up then, hopefully things will be a bit better later.
		
Click to expand...

Be careful...someone will pull you up for commenting on others and not simply focussing on your own actions (btw I agree with you 👍)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 11, 2021)

Del_Boy said:



			Maybe the time has come to either open up officially political posts or shut threads down as soon as there is a hint of a political post.  At the moment there is to much of a grey area
		
Click to expand...

Maybe it’s time you added to the thread instead of whining about politics and making comments to silh, you contribute nothing, yet want it locked!


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## williamalex1 (Jan 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Why can't they cancel the Summer School Holidays and the kids catch up then, hopefully things will be a bit better later.
		
Click to expand...

I suggested that yonks ago, that 2/3 weeks could be deducted from the 7 weeks school summer holidays and was shot down in flames.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 12, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Mum's neighbour had her son visit at Xmas. She then visited her other son at New Year. Now they've all got covid.
		
Click to expand...

So, there is a God, and/or justice after all? 
(Provided, of course, that your mum is not one of those included in the "all got covid" grouping ...)


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## Del_Boy (Jan 12, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe it’s time you added to the thread instead of whining about politics and making comments to silh, you contribute nothing, yet want it locked!

Click to expand...

actually I don’t want it locked I was after clarity on political posts


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## Leftitshort (Jan 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I suggested that yonks ago, that 2/3 weeks could be deducted from the 7 weeks school summer holidays and was shot down in flames. 

Click to expand...

I’d go for that. It was mentioned last summer, even if it was part time. I think the teaching unions torpedoed it!


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## Beezerk (Jan 12, 2021)

Del_Boy said:



			actually I don’t want it locked I was after clarity on political posts
		
Click to expand...

Politics get mentioned, people start arguing within a coupe of posts, then people start arguing about whether the posts were in fact political, then people start arguing when the mods don't do enough to clamp down on these arguments about the political arguments.
Is that enough clarity for you?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Politics get mentioned, people start arguing within a coupe of posts, then people start arguing about whether the posts were in fact political, then people start arguing when the mods don't do enough to clamp down on these arguments about the political arguments.
Is that enough clarity for you? 

Click to expand...

He’s tried closing the Trump/PGA Thread down in the Lounge as well.

I for one can’t wait to read his contribution to the forum once all the politics has been removed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

No demand for 24x7 vaccination we are told. I say ‘bunkum’ to that.  Give me the opportunity to book, or invite me for, a 3am slot and I’ll have it thank you.


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## road2ruin (Jan 12, 2021)

Over the last 12 months all you read in the MSM, Social Media and even on this very forum is rule breaking, 'Covidiots' etc etc. I thought this was an interesting article from the BMJ that maybe we should be focusing on the fact that the vast majority of the population are actually adhering to the rules. With the media etc being so focussed on those who are breaking the rules (a minority) all they are doing is giving those who are wavering an excuse to become rule breakers themsevles. 

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...s-has-been-misrepresented-and-why-it-matters/


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No demand for 24x7 vaccination we are told. I say ‘bunkum’ to that.  Give me the opportunity to book, or invite me for, a 3am slot and I’ll have it thank you.
		
Click to expand...

Too damn right. Mind you, there is a very large staff requirement as asoon as you go 24 hrs working.  If that was the problem, then it should be stated.
To say there is no demand is ridiculous.
In fact, it's a good subject for a poll here.😀
(I don't know how to set that up!)


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## bobmac (Jan 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Over the last 12 months all you read in the MSM, Social Media and even on this very forum is rule breaking, 'Covidiots' etc etc. I thought this was an interesting article from the BMJ that maybe we should be focusing on the fact that the vast majority of the population are actually adhering to the rules. With the media etc being so focussed on those who are breaking the rules (a minority) all they are doing is giving those who are wavering an excuse to become rule breakers themsevles.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...s-has-been-misrepresented-and-why-it-matters/

Click to expand...

One very good reason not to watch it.


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## GB72 (Jan 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Over the last 12 months all you read in the MSM, Social Media and even on this very forum is rule breaking, 'Covidiots' etc etc. I thought this was an interesting article from the BMJ that maybe we should be focusing on the fact that the vast majority of the population are actually adhering to the rules. With the media etc being so focussed on those who are breaking the rules (a minority) all they are doing is giving those who are wavering an excuse to become rule breakers themsevles.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...s-has-been-misrepresented-and-why-it-matters/

Click to expand...

On a similar subject, you just have to look at the headlines this morning about retail sales being the worst on record. Not really surprising seeing as much of the retail sector has been shut for nearly a year.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Over the last 12 months all you read in the MSM, Social Media and even on this very forum is rule breaking, 'Covidiots' etc etc. I thought this was an interesting article from the BMJ that maybe we should be focusing on the fact that the vast majority of the population are actually adhering to the rules. With the media etc being so focussed on those who are breaking the rules (a minority) all they are doing is giving those who are wavering an excuse to become rule breakers themsevles.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/0...s-has-been-misrepresented-and-why-it-matters/

Click to expand...

And your point is what- That  breaking the rules shouldn't be concentrated on so that the offenders can be urged, cajoled, forced to toe the line?
Just let it happen as acceptable? It is what it is?
Of course it's a minority. But not an acceptable one.
Pick any football match where there has been ( very) bad crowd behaviour .
Any statistical analysis will tell you that the majority were behaving.
However, we all know how bad the overall experience would be.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Politics get mentioned, people start arguing within a coupe of posts, then people start arguing about whether the posts were in fact political, then people start arguing when the mods don't do enough to clamp down on these arguments about the political arguments.
Is that enough clarity for you? 

Click to expand...

Whether golf majors should be held on Trump courses is legit material for a golf forum. GM posted this question on social media to invite comments, and it has got some rather robust responses on both sides of the debate.


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## GB72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			And your point is what- That  breaking the rules shouldn't be concentrated on so that the offenders can be urged, cajoled, forced to toe the line?
Just let it happen as acceptable? It is what it is?
Of course it's a minority. But not an acceptable one.
Pick any football match where there has been ( very) bad crowd behaviour .
Any statistical analysis will tell you that the majority were behaving.
However, we all know how bad the overall experience would be.
		
Click to expand...

I think the point is that a clear media focus on rule breaking has given a potentially inaccurate impression that, in fact, the majority are breaking the rules and such an impression does little to help overall compliance. An approach where more emphasis is placed n the good things that people are doing may give rise to an atmosphere where compliance is more rigorous whilst also not giving people who are wavering the excuse to break the rules because everyone else is. A press that attempts to be uniting rather than divisive in current times could be a benefit.


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## GB72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Whether golf majors should be held on Trump courses is legit material for a golf forum. GM posted this question on social media to invite comments, and it has got some rather robust responses on both sides of the debate.
		
Click to expand...

There would seem to be plenty of scope there to debate on whether golf, or sport in general, should be taking a stance in political matters without actually feeling the need to debate the merits or not of any particular political stance.


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## road2ruin (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			And your point is what- That  breaking the rules shouldn't be concentrated on so that the offenders can be urged, cajoled, forced to toe the line?
Just let it happen as acceptable? It is what it is?
Of course it's a minority. But not an acceptable one.
Pick any football match where there has been ( very) bad crowd behaviour .
Any statistical analysis will tell you that the majority were behaving.
However, we all know how bad the overall experience would be.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't say that the minority was acceptable, my point is that maybe if there was a little positivity during what is a very difficult time for people maybe it would be appreciated. The way everything is reported at the moment you'd think that it was actually the majority who were breaking rules therefore what is the point of following them. The reality is that it's a small minority, read the article, 90% of adherence. Given that 'fatigue' was mentioned as early as March last year I think that the general population are, largely, doing a pretty good job given we're almost 12 months on and in the same situation.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			There would seem to be plenty of scope there to debate on whether golf, or sport in general, should be taking a stance in political matters without actually feeling the need to debate the merits or not of any particular political stance.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed. Let's assume the Trump brand is currently toxic. Should that influence the PGA of America or The R&A when choosing venues?

It is really a variation of the Justin Thomas ban/fine debate.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I think the point is that a clear media focus on rule breaking has given a potentially inaccurate impression that, in fact, the majority are breaking the rules and such an impression does little to help overall compliance. An approach where more emphasis is placed n the good things that people are doing may give rise to an atmosphere where compliance is more rigorous whilst also not giving people who are wavering the excuse to break the rules because everyone else is. A press that attempts to be uniting rather than divisive in current times could be a benefit.
		
Click to expand...

What would be even more helpful would be a press that didn’t give airtime to airheads who drive to beauty spots for a peppermint tea and a batter and then moan like drains about the heavy handed attitude of the police.

The climb down on the FPN’s has given every man and his dog licence to drive wherever they want for a walk.


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## IainP (Jan 12, 2021)

I had the radio on yesterday and the story was at a vaccination location. There were a number of elderly happily receiving the vaccine and discussing that it was the 1st time they had left their home in 10 months. The journalist was proper shocked/surprised  - just couldn't put their head around it.


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## GB72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			What would be even more helpful would be a press that didn’t give airtime to airheads who drive to beauty spots for a peppermint tea and a batter and then moan like drains about the heavy handed attitude of the police.

The climb down on the FPN’s has given every man and his dog licence to drive wherever they want for a walk.
		
Click to expand...

Even worse is the constant switching of standpoints. One week it will be that enforcement is not being taken seriously and the next it is that the police are being heavy handed and over zealous. It really is one thing that annoys me is the constant need to be contrary in every situation. If you are calling for tougher enforcement and that happens, say that it is good that this has occurred, hell even take some credit for it but do not then switch to the opposite stance.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			And your point is what- That  breaking the rules shouldn't be concentrated on so that the offenders can be urged, cajoled, forced to toe the line?
Just let it happen as acceptable? It is what it is?
Of course it's a minority. But not an acceptable one.
Pick any football match where there has been ( very) bad crowd behaviour .
Any statistical analysis will tell you that the majority were behaving.
However, we all know how bad the overall experience would be.
		
Click to expand...

It is a behavioural and psychological point. If all people hear is bad news and people breaking rules then previously rule following people start to waiver. Why follow rules if everyone else is not? If you emphasise the bulk who follow the rules then those same rule followers will continue to do so.

An analogy I would give is around litter. If you go somewhere with lots of litter then people often join in, don't use the bins, don't take their rubbish home. If you go somewhere with little litter then people tend not to drop and take it away with them. It is a subtle thing but it happens


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Even worse is the constant switching of standpoints. One week it will be that enforcement is not being taken seriously and the next it is that the police are being heavy handed and over zealous. It really is one thing that annoys me is the constant need to be contrary in every situation. If you are calling for tougher enforcement and that happens, say that it is good that this has occurred, hell even take some credit for it but do not then switch to the opposite stance.
		
Click to expand...

This drives me nuts as well. Media pushing and pushing and pushing in article after article about people flouting the rules, getting "experts" to call for tougher measures, in interviews pushing politicians on when or if new restrictions will come in place, or why they haven't already, and then when they do come in, sob story after sob story about people who've been heavy handed by the police etc etc.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			What would be even more helpful would be a press that didn’t give airtime to airheads who drive to beauty spots for a peppermint tea and a batter and then moan like drains about the heavy handed attitude of the police.

The climb down on the FPN’s has given every man and his dog licence to drive wherever they want for a walk.
		
Click to expand...

It was a ridiculous and heavy-handed move by Plod to fine them for that. Having a coffee makes it a picnic? That is a load of Pro V1s. This nonsense about driving is a red herring. Driving makes no difference to risk, you are probably never safer than alone in a car. It is what you do when you get to where you are driving that matters, and walking outdoors in the hills is safer than visiting Tesco.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No demand for 24x7 vaccination we are told. I say ‘bunkum’ to that.  Give me the opportunity to book, or invite me for, a 3am slot and I’ll have it thank you.
		
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be as busy as during daytime, but I am pretty sure they could find enough customers to keep a few sites going.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I think the point is that a clear media focus on rule breaking has given a potentially inaccurate impression that, in fact, the majority are breaking the rules and such an impression does little to help overall compliance. An approach where more emphasis is placed n the good things that people are doing may give rise to an atmosphere where compliance is more rigorous whilst also not giving people who are wavering the excuse to break the rules because everyone else is. A press that attempts to be uniting rather than divisive in current times could be a benefit.
		
Click to expand...

I accept your point. However, it is a fine line between ignoring and confronting bad behaviour in the hope that it will reduce or cease.
Your last sentence  is one hundred per cent correct. One of the best sentences on this forum.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It was a ridiculous and heavy-handed move by Plod to fine them for that. Having a coffee makes it a picnic? That is a load of Pro V1s. This nonsense about driving is a red herring. Driving makes no difference to risk, you are probably never safer than alone in a car. It is what you do when you get to where you are driving that matters, and walking outdoors in the hills is safer than visiting Tesco.
		
Click to expand...

Neither of us are fully aware of the circumstances, but given that this was my former field of expertise, I’ve got a couple of bob that says the young ladies version of events is further from the truth than Plod’s.


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## DanFST (Jan 12, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Neither of us are fully aware of the circumstances, but given that this was my former field of expertise, I’ve got a couple of bob that says the young ladies version of events is further from the truth than Plod’s.
		
Click to expand...

Police should never be put in a situation where they can be Judge, Jury and Executioner. 

I remember getting a Section 59 Order. Completely unfair and incorrect use of the thing, quite frankly an abuse of power. I may not have been particularly polite to the coppers, but that shouldn't matter.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 12, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Neither of us are fully aware of the circumstances, but given that this was my former field of expertise, I’ve got a couple of bob that says the young ladies version of events is further from the truth than Plod’s.
		
Click to expand...

And given some others experience of the police?

Why did the police apologise?

Not something that they usually find easy to do. After all they could have just withdrawn the fixed penalty notices and left it at that.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 12, 2021)

Why not concentrate on those breaking the guidance? You only need 1 person not following the rules and being positive to infect any amount of people they come into contact with.

Masks, why do we allow “ medical exemptions” for people to not wear one. I refer back to my previous comment, and seeing as the virus is a respiratory illness anyone with issues breathing in a mask shouldn’t be out.....surely.?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

From the gov site today re exercise

*Meeting other people*
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are part of your household or support bubble. You cannot leave home for recreational or leisure purposes (such as for a picnic or a social meeting).

*Exercising*
You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

You can exercise in a public outdoor place:


by yourself
with the people you live with
with your support bubble (if you are legally permitted to form one)
in a childcare bubble where providing childcare
or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household
This includes but is not limited to running, cycling, walking, and swimming. Personal training can continue one-on-one unless everyone is within the same household or support bubble.

Public outdoor places include:


parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
the grounds of a heritage site


playgrounds
Now thats today, was it the same last week. For me that’s not the issue, what we do and don’t do today has a knock on effect for the next month or so. Those women knew that meeting up could have a knock on effect. Today’s ” rules” you should not travel to an exercise area.you should not meet up with someone else. That’s quite clear. What’s not clear is some forces are saying we are getting tough and some are saying it’s a bit OTT..
So why the mixed messages again.

On the radio this morning there loving the thought the police had to back down and apologise to these two women who were exercising yet the next story they are moaning coz Boris has gone for a bike ride which according to today’s gov rules is ok. Media still Not sending out mixed messages is it. And yet throughout all this there are those who are still hell bent on breaking the rules.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			From the gov site today re exercise

*Meeting other people*
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are part of your household or support bubble. You cannot leave home for recreational or leisure purposes (such as for a picnic or a social meeting).

*Exercising*
You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

You can exercise in a public outdoor place:


by yourself
with the people you live with
with your support bubble (if you are legally permitted to form one)
in a childcare bubble where providing childcare
or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household
This includes but is not limited to running, cycling, walking, and swimming. Personal training can continue one-on-one unless everyone is within the same household or support bubble.

Public outdoor places include:


parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
the grounds of a heritage site


playgrounds
Now thats today, was it the same last week. For me that’s not the issue, what we do and don’t do today has a knock on effect for the next month or so. Those women knew that meeting up could have a knock on effect. Today’s ” rules” you should not travel to an exercise area.you should not meet up with someone else. That’s quite clear. What’s not clear is some forces are saying we are getting tough and some are saying it’s a bit OTT..
So why the mixed messages again.

On the radio this morning there loving the thought the police had to back down and apologise to these two women who were exercising yet the next story they are moaning coz Boris has gone for a bike ride which according to today’s gov rules is ok. Media still Not sending out mixed messages is it. And yet throughout all this there are those who are still hell bent on breaking the rules.
		
Click to expand...

Define “Local Area”


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Define “Local Area”
		
Click to expand...

Cressida Dick says you leave your front door ( either walk or ride a bike) and return to your front door. That will do for me. Any exercise that means getting in your car is not local.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 12, 2021)

Boris's cycle ride was in a park 7 miles from Downing Street and he had to be transported there Foremark Reservoir is 5 miles from where the two ladies live.

Define local!

And you can exercise with no more than one person from another household.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Cressida Dick says you leave your front door ( either walk or ride a bike) and return to your front door. That will do for me. Any exercise that means getting in your car is not local.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't realise that the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police was now making the law and defining the regulations.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			From the gov site today re exercise

*Meeting other people*
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are part of your household or support bubble. You cannot leave home for recreational or leisure purposes (such as for a picnic or a social meeting).

*Exercising*
You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

You can exercise in a public outdoor place:


by yourself
with the people you live with
with your support bubble (if you are legally permitted to form one)
in a childcare bubble where providing childcare
*or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household*
This includes but is not limited to running, cycling, walking, and swimming. Personal training can continue one-on-one unless everyone is within the same household or support bubble.

Public outdoor places include:


parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
the grounds of a heritage site


playgrounds
Now thats today, was it the same last week. For me that’s not the issue, what we do and don’t do today has a knock on effect for the next month or so. Those women knew that meeting up could have a knock on effect. Today’s ” rules” you should not travel to an exercise area.you should not meet up with someone else. That’s quite clear. What’s not clear is some forces are saying we are getting tough and some are saying it’s a bit OTT..
So why the mixed messages again.

On the radio this morning there loving the thought the police had to back down and apologise to these two women who were exercising yet the next story they are moaning coz Boris has gone for a bike ride which according to today’s gov rules is ok. Media still Not sending out mixed messages is it. And yet throughout all this there are those who are still hell bent on breaking the rules.
		
Click to expand...

You can meet up with someone else from outside your household

It was also in a public space that was open and they travelled seperate

You can also drive to an area for your exercise


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 12, 2021)

In a rural area it is not unusual to have to drive for a walk. It sounds daft but there can be fewer pavements and it is not as safe to walk on the roads in winter light. I'm not advocating driving 10 miles + for a walk but up to 5 miles seems reasonable enough. 

Did Wales not have a 5 mile restriction? I'd have no problem if they brought that in.


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## GB72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why not concentrate on those breaking the guidance? You only need 1 person not following the rules and being positive to infect any amount of people they come into contact with.

Masks, why do we allow “ medical exemptions” for people to not wear one. I refer back to my previous comment, and seeing as the virus is a respiratory illness anyone with issues breathing in a mask shouldn’t be out.....surely.?
		
Click to expand...

I think the point is that it may be counter productive. Agree about the one person but if that situation is then reported in the press in such a way to suggest that everyone is breaking the rules, a dozen more people may then breach the rule because they are fed up and the fact that they feel in the minority by complying means that they feel that it is OK in their mind. Alternatively, there a lots of stories about people being compliant and those dozen people may feel more guilty about the idea of breaching the rules and stay home. 

Another example is his current one about the police being heavy handed on the 2 people walking. The press focus on this has pointed the narrative towards what you can get away with and perhaps lessened the perceived threat of a fine and so may have done damage to overall compliance by focusing on one incident that the policy may or may not have got wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2021)

Rules should be clear and unambiguous. It's not fair on the Police or Public if they need to make a personal decision on what 'Local' means. It should either be within your local postcode or say five miles then everyone knows right from wrong.  The Picnic issue was just plain daft.


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## oxymoron (Jan 12, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Neither of us are fully aware of the circumstances, but given that this was my former field of expertise, I’ve got a couple of bob that says the young ladies version of events is further from the truth than Plod’s.
		
Click to expand...

Not Poilce bashing as i believe they are in an impossible position, however your statement does nothing to help suggesting , without proof they were lying or exaggerating in which case causes further angst towards officers doing an impossible job implementing these "guidelines" ,i am not aware that they are actual laws but happy to be proven wrong.
If it is as stated by the Police , why not release bodycam evidence ? If indeed they were equipped with them ? Surely a word with them would have sufficed instead of using a sledgehammer to crack , in this case , a small nut ?
And if indeed the officer classes a coffee\tea as a picnic ,, well we all need to step back and consider what we are doing and if indeed it is in the guidelines .
As i said i am not anti Police but sometimes you wonder what goes through some officers heads and this gives other officers a bit of a bad rep .

I await the bashing ,,,


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

oxymoron said:



			Not Poilce bashing as i believe they are in an impossible position, however your statement does nothing to help suggesting , without proof they were lying or exaggerating in which case causes further angst towards officers doing an impossible job implementing these "guidelines" ,i am not aware that they are actual laws but happy to be proven wrong.
If it is as stated by the Police , why not release bodycam evidence ? If indeed they were equipped with them ? Surely a word with them would have sufficed instead of using a sledgehammer to crack , in this case , a small nut ?
And if indeed the officer classes a coffee\tea as a picnic ,, well we all need to step back and consider what we are doing and if indeed it is in the guidelines .
As i said i am not anti Police but sometimes you wonder what goes through some officers heads and this gives other officers a bit of a bad rep .

I await the bashing ,,,
		
Click to expand...

Also the fine has been rescinded 

Implies was incorrectly applied


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## GB72 (Jan 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Rules should be clear and unambiguous. It's not fair on the Police or Public if they need to make a personal decision on what 'Local' means. It should either be within your local postcode or say five miles then everyone knows right from wrong.  The Picnic issue was just plain daft.
		
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Thing is you cannot win, you say 5 miles and the stories will be out about people living 6 miles from their nearest walk etc. It just needs common sense. If everything is as has been stated in the recent case then 5 miles and a walk with coffee would seem reasonable and the police a bit OTT but then again a point was clearly being made on a national level that enforcement was to be taken far more seriously this time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It wouldn't be as busy as during daytime, but I am pretty sure they could find enough customers to keep a few sites going.
		
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So why are those in charge telling us there is no demand!  I guess the likely answer strays straight into the political arena.  But I want to have my vaccination asap and so I want to know who is deciding that there is no demand and I want to know the basis upon which that decision and statement has been made.


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## DanFST (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So why are those in charge telling us there is no demand.  I guess the likely answer strays straight into the political arena.  But I want to have my vaccination asap and so I want to know who is deciding that there is no demand and I want to know the basis upon which that decision and statement has been made.
		
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I think you know the answer. 


Otherwise you have to say there is not enough supply, which is quite obvious and acceptable. However, imagine how that will sound and be reported!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Cressida Dick says you leave your front door ( either walk or ride a bike) and return to your front door. That will do for me. Any exercise that means getting in your car is not local.
		
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But the guidelines you published says you can travel in local area, I disagree with your definition, so we are both right and both wrong! It’s not straightforward or simple.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So why are those in charge telling us there is no demand!  I guess the likely answer strays straight into the political arena.  But I want to have my vaccination asap and so I want to know who is deciding that there is no demand and I want to know the basis upon which that decision and statement has been made.
		
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It is a more complicated issue than it seems. First you need vaccine. Many places don't have enough. Second, you need staff. If you pout people on nights, they are not available during the days, so it is a zero sum game. Third, you need demand. I think we have the third, but not the first and second. If supplies come through in large quantities, and the process of training people does away with a lot of the unnecessary stuff, then I think much broader hours will follow. I contacted NHS Professionals and a vaccinator recruitment company in early Dec, provided my GMC Number and credentials and I haven't yet had more than a generic reply.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why not concentrate on those breaking the guidance? You only need 1 person not following the rules and being positive to infect any amount of people they come into contact with.

Masks, why do we allow “ medical exemptions” for people to not wear one. I refer back to my previous comment, and seeing as the virus is a respiratory illness anyone with issues breathing in a mask shouldn’t be out.....surely.?
		
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I am not alone in thinking that the issue is not simply that relatively small number of individuals breaking the rules/guidelines/laws - but those many more taking advantage of what we are _allowed_  to do rather than adhering what the CMO exhorts us to do - and that is to stay at home and only go out for short period of exercise or when absolutely essential shopping _requires _you to go to a store.


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## SatchFan (Jan 12, 2021)

Looking at the newspaper pictures of the PM on his seven mile bike ride I was fascinated that he seemed to have changed his clothes three times on the journey.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Cressida Dick says you leave your front door ( either walk or ride a bike) and return to your front door. That will do for me. Any exercise that means getting in your car is not local.
		
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That is a rather stupid statement from Dick. Not everybody wants to walk, it may not be suitable to ride a bike and the journey makes no flipping difference. Plod needs to concentrate on the stuff that is important and not persecuting people who take care to go to somewhere quiet and suitable.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So why are those in charge telling us there is no demand!  I guess the likely answer strays straight into the political arena.  But I want to have my vaccination asap and so I want to know who is deciding that there is no demand and I want to know the basis upon which that decision and statement has been made.
		
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Last night it wasn't the demand issue it was the most efficient way apparently


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is a more complicated issue than it seems. First you need vaccine. Many places don't have enough. Second, you need staff. If you pout people on nights, they are not available during the days, so it is a zero sum game. Third, you need demand. I think we have the third, but not the first and second. If supplies come through in large quantities, and the process of training people does away with a lot of the unnecessary stuff, then I think much broader hours will follow. I contacted NHS Professionals and a vaccinator recruitment company in early Dec, provided my GMC Number and credentials and I haven't yet had more than a generic reply.
		
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Yes I appreciate that the logistics might be difficult at present and the volumes of the vaccine required might not yet be flowing.  But I myself am not considering this as being essential immediately - but something that can be planned for; recruited and trained for; with all logistics put in place - then initiated and ramped up once we have the Phase 1 vaccinations done - if constraints on the logistics demand that we wait to ensure that we get _that_ done asap.

The statement was not that we couldn't do it due to the logistics and the need to focus on Phase 1 vaccinations - rather that there was no demand.  Poppycock.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Last night it wasn't the demand issue it was the most efficient way apparently
		
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Apologies if I misheard.  My understanding came from what I was being informed of by Nick Ferrari on LBC this morning.  I'm thinking that - yes - open all hours might not be most efficient approach when resource and vaccine are limited as they both currently are.  But we can recruit and plan for when vaccine volumes hit the volumes government is expecting and take advantage of any public willingness to get vaccinated whenever.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes I appreciate that the logistics might be difficult at present and the volumes of the vaccine required might not yet be flowing.  But I myself am not considering this as being essential immediately - but something that can be planned for; recruited and trained for; with all logistics put in place - then initiated and ramped up once we have the Phase 1 vaccinations done - if constraints on the logistics demand that we wait to ensure that we get _that_ done asap.

The statement was not that we couldn't do it due to the logistics and the need to focus on Phase 1 vaccinations - rather that there was no demand.  Poppycock.
		
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I wasn't criticising the comment on demand, I agree there is demand. The logistics are to get a lorryload of vaccine and use, under supervision, people who have been trained to give IM injections. That's it. IM injection is not a very technically demanding task. Diversity and radicalisation training are not needed. Train them onsite in an hour, practice giving injections of placebo into an orange and off you go.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Why not concentrate on those breaking the guidance? You only need 1 person not following the rules and being positive to infect any amount of people they come into contact with.

Masks, why do we allow “ medical exemptions” for people to not wear one. I refer back to my previous comment, and seeing as the virus is a respiratory illness anyone with issues breathing in a mask shouldn’t be out.....surely.?
		
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Depends what that one person is doing. If they are walking outside 1.9m from a friend while drinking coffee, they should be politely reminded to socially distance slightly better but no more.

If they are holding a house party with others, they should be arrested. 

On the medical exemptions, it is, in my opinion, ridiculous that people can self-certify. Masks do not interfere with breathing in or out, many asthmatic theatre buses and surgeons demonstrate this daily, so the valid reasons for exemptions are things like trigeminal neuralgia, a painful condition of the face triggered by contact, and some psychiatric and behavioural conditions, but not general everyday self-diagnosed phobias. People who do not wear a mask, whether valid or not, are at greater risk of both getting but also transmitting, so if genuinely unable to wear one, should not be able to freely move around places where masks are required. Why should I have to accept the risk of someone she's imagined pseudophobia?


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## drdel (Jan 12, 2021)

It's not the logistics. You need enough stuff to put in the 'trucks'.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Neither of us are fully aware of the circumstances, but given that this was my former field of expertise, I’ve got a couple of bob that says the young ladies version of events is further from the truth than Plod’s.
		
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Well, then the police have committed two mistakes if indeed the fines really were justified, wrongly retracting the fines and then failing to clarify what are justifiable reasons there are for issuing them, thus encouraging others to take the proverbial too. That is exactly what causes a lack of public trust in the rules. But, as presented in the media, I think most reasonable people consider them to have been a major overstretch. Sand Derbyshire Plod appears to have previous in this area.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It was a ridiculous and heavy-handed move by Plod to fine them for that. Having a coffee makes it a picnic? That is a load of Pro V1s. This nonsense about driving is a red herring. Driving makes no difference to risk, you are probably never safer than alone in a car. It is what you do when you get to where you are driving that matters, and walking outdoors in the hills is safer than visiting Tesco.
		
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Yes, if it stopped at that. What you have described is correct, but it isn't as safe as being at home meeting no one other than your household.
People driving to a beauty spot, walking area, etc are safe. As you say, it's what happens when you get there. Inevitably when there are enough , there will be some interaction, conversation, etc and SD will go by the board.
It won't with you because you are careful and respect the limits. 
But a lot of people will be driven more by what they want from that meeting up, conversation etc than what is correct SD.
An example of outside non SD was the crowd who watched the Spurs team coach arriving for their recent Cup match. 
Because the authorities know that enough people will breach the SD, then they ask and demand restrictions. You find that not necesssary, but though it isn't for you, it is for enough people who would otherwise spread the virus.
I've seen it on the golf course. 4 balls who get too close , too often, in the enjoyment of the game . Talking too close for too long. And this new variant I suspect can breach outdoors non SD that the original didn't.?
You may know if that is not the case. May I ask,, genuine question,  is it?😀


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## oxymoron (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not alone in thinking that the issue is not simply that relatively small number of individuals breaking the rules/guidelines/laws - but those many more taking advantage of what we are _allowed_  to do rather than adhering what the CMO exhorts us to do - and that is to stay at home and only go out for short period of exercise or when absolutely essential shopping _requires _you to go to a store.
		
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Whilst i broadly agree with you , you must see that if you are doing something you are "allowed" to do you are not taking advantage , you are merely doing what you can do without breaking any perceived law. Many folk are mentally on the edge without worrying if an over zealous plod is going to charge over the hill like Atilla the hun and  slap you with a fine .
Doing something that is allowed is not a crime, it may not be ethical , but it is not a crime by any stretch of the imagination so why we are standing for the criminalization 
of someone going walking in a safe, socially distant manner beggars belief .

Perhaps criminalizing is a bit strong , maybe demonizing is better ?


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, if it stopped at that. What you have described is correct, but it isn't as safe as being at home meeting no one other than your household.
People driving to a beauty spot, walking area, etc are safe. As you say, it's what happens when you get there. Inevitably when there are enough , there will be some interaction, conversation, etc and SD will go by the board.
It won't with you because you are careful and respect the limits.
But a lot of people will be driven more by what they want from that meeting up, conversation etc than what is correct SD.
An example of outside non SD was the crowd who watched the Spurs team coach arriving for their recent Cup match.
Because the authorities know that enough people will breach the SD, then they ask and demand restrictions. You find that not necesssary, but though it isn't for you, it is for enough people who would otherwise spread the virus.
I've seen it on the golf course. 4 balls who get too close , too often, in the enjoyment of the game . Talking too close for too long. And this new variant I suspect can breach outdoors non SD that the original didn't.?
You may know if that is not the case. May I ask,, genuine question,  is it?😀
		
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The new variant is more transmissible, certainly, but transmissibility is based on 2 elements, one the virus reaching you and second, the virus attaching, as it were. The social distancing rules are intended to prevent the first of those. The second is a lot to do with your host immunity and resistance, and an element of dumb luck. 

There is no evidence the new variant can leap further through the air. Outside remains pretty safe, though, and I would imagine a windswept hilltop is safer again. Proximity and duration are also important. It seemed from the reports, though, that if these two were walking near their homes, the cops would not have been interested. The variable which caused the trouble was the 5 mile drive to wherever it was. I can't see that 5 mile journey caused any risk. If it did, sending cops in multiple cars to lean on them was also a major risk.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is a rather stupid statement from Dick. Not everybody wants to walk, it may not be suitable to ride a bike and the journey makes no flipping difference. Plod needs to concentrate on the stuff that is important and not persecuting people who take care to go to somewhere quiet and suitable.
		
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My problem with it is police commissioners are being asked there views. They are not all singing from the same song sheet. Why is that. Because there is not clear clarity, or is there. People are driving anywhere between five miles and hundreds of miles for there local exercise.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			My problem with it is police commissioners are being asked there views. They are not all singing from the same song sheet. Why is that. Because there is not clear clarity, or is there. People are driving anywhere between five miles and hundreds of miles for there local exercise.
		
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During the 2020 version, the National Police Chiefs Council issued some sensible advice to local forces which helped get things both proportionate and consistent.

Interestingly, the current guidelines say "Stay local means stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.". Therefore the same Met Commissioner now considers the Olympic Park to be in the same part of London as Number 10 Downing Street. That is exactly the sort of comment that undermines public trust and adherence to the rules, so perhaps she should stay quiet.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			During the 2020 version, the Police Chiefs committee issued some sensible advice to local forces which helped get things both proportionate and consistent.
		
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On the east midlands news the Notts police commissioner was asked his views on the fine issued. He said he thought it was a bit strong and they would not of issued them. The problem with such as Derbyshire. north, south east and west, It is rammed with cites and towns within half an hours drive of the Pennines and it gets rammed with Locals and they/police just don’t want them there.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			But the guidelines you published says you can travel in local area, I disagree with your definition, so we are both right and both wrong! It’s not straightforward or simple.
		
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And your last sentence is my point👍 It does say you cannot travel outside your local area. What exactly is local area.

What I will say is that for me there is a massive massive difference between people who deliberately break the rules and people
 ( like the two women ) that are unsure of what constitutes local exercise.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			On the east midlands news the Notts police commissioner was asked his views on the fine issued. He said he thought it was a bit strong and they would not of issued them. The problem with such as Derbyshire. north, south east and west, It is rammed with cites and towns within half an hours drive of the Pennines and it gets rammed with Locals and they/police just don’t want them there.
		
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The police are there to fairly and legally enforce the law, it is unfortunate for them if there is something that is legal but which they don't like or want. The Pennines are quite a big space and are outdoors, so provided entry and exit is managed, should not be a risk. Traffic jams don't spread Covid.


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## DRW (Jan 12, 2021)

I really cant believe we are going again on outside stuff. 10 months into a pandemic and we are still discussing it. 

So many studies out there, science based, evidence based, via track/trace, reports from other countries, personal experience, outside is very low risk with any element of social distancing and unless you wish to stay indoors forever(which by all means you can), but outside exercise is as great thing for your body and mind.

It has kind of become a control thing, rather than the more important control the transmission of the virus thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Depends what that one person is doing. If they are walking outside 1.9m from a friend while drinking coffee, they should be politely reminded to socially distance slightly better but no more.

If they are holding a house party with others, they should be arrested.

On the medical exemptions, it is, in my opinion, ridiculous that people can self-certify. Masks do not interfere with breathing in or out, many asthmatic theatre buses and surgeons demonstrate this daily, so the valid reasons for exemptions are things like trigeminal neuralgia, a painful condition of the face triggered by contact, and some psychiatric and behavioural conditions, but not general everyday self-diagnosed phobias. People who do not wear a mask, whether valid or not, are at greater risk of both getting but also transmitting, so if genuinely unable to wear one, should not be able to freely move around places where masks are required. Why should I have to accept the risk of someone she's imagined pseudophobia?
		
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Interesting - I was thinking that for most who claim exemption from wearing a mask there is nothing stopping them having a go wearing it when going into a store - and if it becomes problematic for the wearer then they can remove it.

Heard one fella on radio give reasons he doesn't have to wear one. And as far as I could hear they were OK (though my comment on wearing one until it was problematic applies).  He was then asked why he doesn't wear a visor (I know they are not equivalent but that is what he was asked).  His response?  He wears glasses and they steam up.  Well OK...however. 

I'm not convinced that we are all doing everything we can to minimise the spread of the virus; we are not all looking terribly hard for ways around problems the constraints, guidance and law imposes on us.  Many seem to prefer to take advantage of what we are _allowed _to do, rather then aim to comply with what we _exhorted _to do - stay at home as much as we can.  For a few months more.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			On the east midlands news the Notts police commissioner was asked his views on the fine issued. He said he thought it was a bit strong and they would not of issued them. The problem with such as Derbyshire. north, south east and west, It is rammed with cites and towns within half an hours drive of the Pennines and it gets rammed with Locals and they/police just don’t want them there.
		
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Just to be clear,  I think you mean the Peak District rather than the Pennines and Foremark Reservoir and Calke Abbey another site that witnessed heavy handed policing, are nowhere near the Peak District.


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## bobmac (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He was then asked why he doesn't wear a visor (I know they are not equivalent but that is what he was asked).  His response? * He wears glasses and they steam up*.  Well OK...however.
		
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Rubbish
I've worn a visor and glasses in a supermarket and nothing steamed up whatsoever.


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## garyinderry (Jan 12, 2021)

The amount of couples that are exempt is staggering.


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## Beezerk (Jan 12, 2021)

Re the driving to exercise, I understand it's necessary for some but it's more than that for others. The majority ive seen are using this as an excuse to have a day out with friends or other families. The amount of large groups I've seen in the local area is staggering, boils my pash it does.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Re the driving to exercise, I understand it's necessary for some but it's more than that for others. The majority ive seen are using this as an excuse to have a day out with friends or other families. The amount of large groups I've seen in the local area is staggering, boils my pash it does.
		
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There’s some lovely stories on the sky news as we speak. One guy who lives in Chesterfield ( Pennines next door) was pulled over by police in his car at Lincoln. he was travelling to all 92 football league clubs 😳.


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting - I was thinking that for most who claim exemption from wearing a mask there is nothing stopping them having a go wearing it when going into a store - and if it becomes problematic for the wearer then they can remove it.

Heard one fella on radio give reasons he doesn't have to wear one. And as far as I could hear they were OK (though my comment on wearing one until it was problematic applies).  He was then asked why he doesn't wear a visor (I know they are not equivalent but that is what he was asked).  His response?  He wears glasses and they steam up.  Well OK...however.

I'm not convinced that we are all doing everything we can to minimise the spread of the virus; we are not all looking terribly hard for ways around problems the constraints, guidance and law imposes on us.  Many seem to prefer to take advantage of what we are _allowed _to do, rather then aim to comply with what we _exhorted _to do - stay at home as much as we can.  For a few months more.
		
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We take a reasonably simple approach. Work from home unless my wife needs to go into office (less than once a week and needs a good reason, key worker). Ocado if we can get slots, one visit a week to the supermarket if not. One take-away dinner or delivery a week, mostly for the kids, my wife goes out for a run a couple of days a week early in a quiet area where she usually sees very few people, and the kids either play football in the garden (although rather bogging at the moment) or take a local walk around the block. That is it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Rules should be clear and unambiguous. It's not fair on the Police or Public if they need to make a personal decision on what 'Local' means. It should either be within your local postcode or say five miles then everyone knows right from wrong.  The Picnic issue was just plain daft.
		
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I agree that it should be clear. The leadership of the police should be demanding of the authorities that it is clear, (but demand is a word forgotten unless they are speaking to a lower rank.)
However, in these times people should forget this attitude of how far can I use this law, and think of what is best to beat this virus.
To say , e.g. "Well that is human nature isn't it?" as an implied justification is not good enough.
We believe we have become intelligent and civilised. Let's demand that we behave as such.


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## GB72 (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			We take a reasonably simple approach. Work from home unless my wife needs to go into office (less than once a week and needs a good reason, key worker). Ocado if we can get slots, one visit a week to the supermarket if not. One take-away dinner or delivery a week, mostly for the kids, my wife goes out for a run a couple of days a week early in a quiet area where she usually sees very few people, and the kids either play football in the garden (although rather bogging at the moment) or take a local walk around the block. That is it.
		
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Pretty similar here. Yes I go to work every day but I do not have the security necessary at home to store confidential files that I need or fireproof cabinets for deeds and wills so I go in. That said, I am in my own office on my own all day and everyone wears a mask and social distances in communal areas. Wife works at home except for the odd time she needs to go out of site (utilities construction). I go shopping once a week and top that up with a hello fresh order every fortnight for variety. I go nowhere during the week but do go for a long walk on both days at the weekend just to maintain some sanity. Had a takeaway last weekend for the first time in ages.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Police should never be put in a situation where they can be Judge, Jury and Executioner.

I remember getting a Section 59 Order. Completely unfair and incorrect use of the thing, quite frankly an abuse of power. I may not have been particularly polite to the coppers, but that shouldn't matter.
		
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Don't know what you mean by that because it isn't true. 
Issuing a FP isn't being all three. Arresting someone isn't being all three. 
There was a time when most offences were dealt with by reporting someone for summons, or by arrest. Convenience and volume has necessitated FP etc.
In any event, the recipient of the police action can argue it in a Court.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

DRW said:



			I really cant believe we are going again on outside stuff. 10 months into a pandemic and we are still discussing it. 

So many studies out there, science based, evidence based, via track/trace, reports from other countries, personal experience, outside is very low risk with any element of social distancing and unless you wish to stay indoors forever(which by all means you can), but outside exercise is as great thing for your body and mind.

It has kind of become a control thing, rather than the more important control the transmission of the virus thing.
		
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So true, I just took the youngest on a mile walk because she having a rough day and needs a nap

Saw 3 people

Essienal? Who cares


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't know what you mean by that because it isn't true.
Issuing a FP isn't being all three. Arresting someone isn't being all three.
There was a time when most offences were dealt with by reporting someone for summons, or by arrest. Convenience and volume has necessitated FP etc.
In any event, the recipient of the police action can argue it in a Court.
		
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The rule or law should be clear and easy to understand, not subjective.

It's not for Police or their Chiefs to interpret, that's a Police state.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wasn't criticising the comment on demand, I agree there is demand. The logistics are to get a lorryload of vaccine and use, under supervision, people who have been trained to give IM injections. That's it. IM injection is not a very technically demanding task. Diversity and radicalisation training are not needed. Train them onsite in an hour, practice giving injections of placebo into an orange and off you go.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, but Hogie does seem to think sometimes that there are cupboards and cupboards full of people, equipment, money, time and resources to train up loads of people for all sorts of possible requirements. I've heard of Money trees, but Hogie sees a forest😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Rubbish
I've worn a visor and glasses in a supermarket and nothing steamed up whatsoever.
		
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Quite...but that was the reason the bloke gave,  and so my conclusion that some are not 100% totally committed to what we need to do.

What do I do if I am wearing glasses when going into a store?  I take them off so they don't steam up.  My eyesight isn't brilliant but it is good enough for me to find what I need to buy.  And if I can't find it I ask an assistant.  When I leave I put my glasses back on.


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## larmen (Jan 12, 2021)

Having recently got a flue jab, the actual jabbing of it took the least amount of time. The admin around it, confirming who you are, and what else happened on the computer took longer. Three might be scope of using different qualified people there?


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## larmen (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite...but that was the reason the bloke gave,  and so my conclusion that some are not 100% totally committed to what we need to do.

What do I do if I am wearing glasses when going into a store?  I take them off so they don't steam up.  My eyesight isn't brilliant but it is good enough for me to find what I need to buy.  And if I can't find it I ask an assistant.  When I leave I put my glasses back on.
		
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My glasses stay in the car, buying the same stuff anyway ;-)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Re the driving to exercise, I understand it's necessary for some but it's more than that for others. The majority ive seen are using this as an excuse to have a day out with friends or other families. The amount of large groups I've seen in the local area is staggering, boils my pash it does.
		
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We get them from Durham and beyond, Faceache/Instagram is full of posts from people travelling for their daily exercise.

Durham is only 11 miles via most direct route, but that still isn’t local imo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree, but Hogie does seem to think sometimes that there are cupboards and cupboards full of people, equipment, money, time and resources to train up loads of people for all sorts of possible requirements. I've heard of Money trees, but Hogie sees a forest😉
		
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Not really.  I see a very urgent objective; I see a solution to deliver that objective sooner rather than later, and with an earliest start date for it pretty well defined (Phase 1 completion); I see customer demand for that solution.  All that is required is a plan to put in place the resource and logistics to deliver that solution.  

Yes - we could have done with a plan to put in place more resource to deliver test and trace more effectively; or put more teachers or TAs in place for children return to school; or more retired (or ex-) NHS nurses onboarded to free up ITI/ICU nurses for the Nightingales for when the 2nd wave hits.  And they all would cost money. It is a significant cost/benefit analysis - however the Magic Money tree has indeed been very giving on Rishi Sunak's shaking of it.


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## DanFST (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't know what you mean by that because it isn't true.
Issuing a FP isn't being all three. Arresting someone isn't being all three.
There was a time when most offences were dealt with by reporting someone for summons, or by arrest. Convenience and volume has necessitated FP etc.
In any event, the recipient of the police action can argue it in a Court.
		
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I don't know what these covid penalties are. However I received a Section 59 for ludicrous reasons that were completely untrue. And even though I had a dash cam and telemetry of my driving, there was no way to appeal. 

That was a semi permanent mark on my car that made me get pulled over stupid amounts following, and if I received another one my car would have been seized.


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## Beezerk (Jan 12, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			We get them from Durham and beyond, Faceache/Instagram is full of posts from people travelling for their daily exercise.

Durham is only 11 miles via most direct route, but that still isn’t local imo.
		
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It's more the blatant meeting up with other people that grinds me, groups of 6 adults and 8 kids all side by side just isn't cricket. The best bit is when they make a huge point of stepping to the side when I go past on my bike like they're trying to socially distance from me 🙈🤣


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 12, 2021)

A couple in Canada have been fined for breaking Covid curfew rules after the woman was caught "walking" her husband on a leash, according to local media.  The woman reportedly told police that she was just out "walking her dog" near their home in the city of Sherbrooke, in Quebec.

On Saturday the province imposed a nightly curfew between 20:00 and 05:00.   Walking a dog close to home is one of the only acceptable reasons to be outside between those times.  The pair were spotted by police at around 9pm on Saturday night, just a short while after the new rules came into effect.

They reportedly told police that they were following the rule for pets. Isabelle Gendron, of the Sherbrooke Police Department, told the local newspaper La Tribune the couple "did not co-operate with the police at all".
They were each fined CA$1,546 ($1,212; £893).


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			It's more the blatant meeting up with other people that grinds me, groups of 6 adults and 8 kids all side by side just isn't cricket. The best bit is when they make a huge point of stepping to the side when I go past on my bike like they're trying to socially distance from me 🙈🤣
		
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Does sound like their taking the Mick but so many loopholes or reasons

For example you can meet that one other person but kids under 5 don't count so my wife can go for a walk with the kids and another mum 

Then support bubbles so we are a family of 5 with a support bubble of 2

So we can go out as a 7 for a walk 

We don't ATM just an example


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			The amount of couples that are exempt is staggering.
		
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The amount of couples that think they need to go shopping together is unbelievable


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			Having recently got a flue jab, the actual jabbing of it took the least amount of time. The admin around it, confirming who you are, and what else happened on the computer took longer. Three might be scope of using different qualified people there?
		
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They are and you can volunteer for these different roles


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The amount of couples that think they need to go shopping together is unbelievable
		
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see also #14,069


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			see also #14,069 

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Touché but I don’t continually whine about it 

Edited to add: my whine was about people going against gov advice where as yours appear to be about people operating within gov advise as was pointed out by a few posters.


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## IanM (Jan 12, 2021)

Seems the over 50s in Wales (that's me!) will get vaccinated before the end March.   Not sure if that is a concrete plan or an aspiration.  Local TV news was bemoaning Wales has started slower than England in rolling this out.  Hope this means normality for the Forum Meet at Woking, or at least by next Xmas!  

Colleague in the Midlands' wife works in a Care Home, all staff and residents were vaccinated yesterday. They are delighted!


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2021)

IanM said:



			Seems the over 50s in Wales (that's me!) will get vaccinated before the end March.   Not sure if that is a concrete plan or an aspiration.  Local TV news was bemoaning Wales has started slower than England in rolling this out.  Hope this means normality for the Forum Meet at Woking, or at least by next Xmas! 

Colleague in the Midlands' wife works in a Care Home, all staff and residents were vaccinated yesterday. They are delighted!
		
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Is obviously turning more into a post code lottery unfortunately. Glouster are saying they will be starting in 50+ end off Feb. In N Devon our supplies are governed by Exeter Health Trust and we have yet to really get going on care homes and our large vaccination centre has been shut more than it’s been open.


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## Backache (Jan 12, 2021)

There do seem to be a lot more cars around than in lockdown Mk 1.
Basically I go to work, shop occasionally and go for walks. Don't know what everyone is doing.
Hopefully will be playing golf soon as we can but the course has been frozen.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

Backache said:



			There do seem to be a lot more cars around than in lockdown Mk 1.
Basically I go to work, shop occasionally and go for walks. Don't know what everyone is doing.
Hopefully will be playing golf soon as we can but the course has been frozen.
		
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More work places open
Travel to support bubbles 
Travel to pre schools 
Travel to pick up click and collect shopping 

Your right about more cars but many more reasons to be out in them

I miss the peace on the roads


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## Jimaroid (Jan 12, 2021)

Homeschooling went better today. I still feel like I'm working 3 jobs from home but it's progress.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The new variant is more transmissible, certainly, but transmissibility is based on 2 elements, one the virus reaching you and second, the virus attaching, as it were. The social distancing rules are intended to prevent the first of those. The second is a lot to do with your host immunity and resistance, and an element of dumb luck.

There is no evidence the new variant can leap further through the air. Outside remains pretty safe, though, and I would imagine a windswept hilltop is safer again. Proximity and duration are also important. It seemed from the reports, though, that if these two were walking near their homes, the cops would not have been interested. The variable which caused the trouble was the 5 mile drive to wherever it was. I can't see that 5 mile journey caused any risk. If it did, sending cops in multiple cars to lean on them was also a major risk.
		
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Thanks for the explanation. Not saying you are incorrect, but wasn't SD of 2 metres to do with how far "droplets" could travel ( still air). I am wondering if "aerosol" effect hasn't been considered as fully as maybe it should.
On a frosty  morning, breath is "seen" and I wonder if breathing each other's air( as opposed to droplets) isn't a vehicle for the new variant?
I know I prefer to err on the side of caution and treat it as if it was.

I agree that in this instance in Derbyshire the question was the five miles.
The authorities were wrong in talking of "you should exercise locally, and that is in your village,part of town etc etc..". Too vague for everyone.
Not really fair on public nor Police.
However, if it was properly delineated, say 2 miles, then a) everyone would know where they stood, and b) beauty spots would not get inundated with numbers, which, as I've suggested, could help the spread .

Edit. Somehow frosty became Friday😳


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Touché but I don’t continually whine about it 

Edited to add: my whine was about people going against gov advice where as yours appear to be about people operating within gov advise as was pointed out by a few posters.
		
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ah - we get into the realms of operating within and outside of gov advice.

Anyway - the Home Sec. is currently being very clear. The basic rule is to stay at home and that we should not be looking to act within the limits - she is also clear that we the public fully understand the 'stay at home' message and that if we have to we should only go out locally.

I'll add that in truth I'm not sure that there is anything *against *gov advice in respect of couples shopping together.  

But therein lies the problem.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			During the 2020 version, the National Police Chiefs Council issued some sensible advice to local forces which helped get things both proportionate and consistent.

Interestingly, the current guidelines say "Stay local means stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.". Therefore the same Met Commissioner now considers the Olympic Park to be in the same part of London as Number 10 Downing Street. That is exactly the sort of comment that undermines public trust and adherence to the rules, so perhaps she should stay quiet.
		
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When she saw the rules or guidelines which you quote above, she should have been on that phone to Downing Street saying that it wasn't good enough saying that. The police needed properly defined laws that both they and the public understand.
People think that laws are complicated in the way they are written. They are not really. I was taught many years ago that well  written laws are written not so much to be understood, but so that they cannot be misunderstood!
I.e get rid of the "wriggle room"😉


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## JustOne (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree that in this instance in Derbyshire the question was the five miles.
The authorities were wrong in talking of "you should exercise locally, and that is in your village,part of town etc etc..". Too vague for everyone.
Not really fair on public nor Police.
However, if it was properly delineated, say 2 miles, then a) everyone would know where they stood, and b) beauty spots would not get inundated with numbers, which, as I've suggested, could help the spread .
		
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I read something (and agree) from the Welsh police that said "exercise should start and finish from your front door"...... how hard could that be to understand?

I think ANYONE using a car should be fined, anyone more than 2 mile walk from their home should be fined. It's exercise *NOT* a day out.


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## Old Skier (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			ah - we get into the realms of operating within and outside of gov advice.

Anyway - the Home Sec. is currently being very clear. The basic rule is to stay at home and that we should not be looking to act within the limits - she is also clear that we the public fully understand the 'stay at home' message and that if we have to we should only go out locally.

I'll add that in truth I'm not sure that there is anything *against *gov advice in respect of couples shopping together. 

But therein lies the problem.
		
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There is advice on shopping and some stores are at last getting back to ensuring it happens so do I take it you have broken this rule.


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## road2ruin (Jan 12, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Homeschooling went better today. I still feel like I'm working 3 jobs from home but it's progress.
		
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Good news. We did PE in the garden today as it was dry. It was an extended session from 11am through until close.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Good news. We did PE in the garden today as it was dry. It was an extended session from 11am through until close.
		
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I locked the kids in the garden and said it was a fire drill


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## Jimaroid (Jan 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Good news. We did PE in the garden today as it was dry. It was an extended session from 11am through until close.
		
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Sounds great! We managed a little lunchtime walk to see the nearby ducks and she did PE with Joe Wicks whilst I was back at my desk on Zoom calls. Not complaining (much) but do feel like I'm missing out on moments for quality time with her.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The rule or law should be clear and easy to understand, not subjective.

It's not for Police or their Chiefs to interpret, that's a Police state.
		
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I wasn't commenting on Police interpretation. Like you say,it shouldn't and mainly doesn't exist.
Lately we have had Police chiefs trying to justify not enforcing certain laws fully. That action or lack of is never straightforward.
But as for the latest "restrictions, I blame the police chiefs for not having the strength to tell Downing Street that the laws have to be watertight. It's no good issuing advice,  and then expecting enforcement of that
That's what you are talking about, I believe. Police chiefs advising how their officers are to enforce or not enforce "laws" that turn out not to be laws.
As you have asked( think it was you) - What is local?
That is a term not to be used in a law. Suitable for a weather forecast maybe😀
However, it has always been the case that the police can have discretion whether to enforce a law . As I've said, the police are not being a judge and jury- all the action taken is able to be contested in Court.
What is not desirable is asking a police officer to do something that he cannot back up. By that I mean , e.g. that if a police officer " asks" someone to refrain, and they ignore him- so we get to "Look,  I've advised you that that is against the law, stop doing it or else"- he has to be able to do the ".or else".
He just can't turn , walk away as if having been told to .....off
So, he acts - and then finds he doesn't have the power of law that he thought he had. The "law" he was enforcing turns out to be guidance or advice!!

What is needed is the Police chiefs to peruse these "laws" and then demand that they be made into proper laws that are clear and enforceable.
Perhaps they have , but I doubt it.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wasn't commenting on Police interpretation. Like you say,it shouldn't and mainly doesn't exist.
Lately we have had Police chiefs trying to justify not enforcing certain laws fully. That action or lack of is never straightforward.
But as for the latest "restrictions, I blame the police chiefs for not having the strength to tell Downing Street that the laws have to be watertight. It's no good issuing advice,  and then expecting enforcement of that
That's what you are talking about, I believe. Police chiefs advising how their officers are to enforce or not enforce "laws" that turn out not to be laws.
As you have asked( think it was you) - What is local?
That is a term not to be used in a law. Suitable for a weather forecast maybe😀
However, it has always been the case that the police can have discretion whether to enforce a law . As I've said, the police are not being a judge and jury- all the action taken is able to be contested in Court.
What is not desirable is asking a police officer to do something that he cannot back up. By that I mean , e.g. that if a police officer " asks" someone to refrain, and they ignore him- so we get to "Look,  I've advised you that that is against the law, stop doing it or else"- he has to be able to do the ".or else".
He just can't turn , walk away as if having been told to .....off
So, he acts - and then finds he doesn't have the power of law that he thought he had. The "law" he was enforcing turns out to be guidance or advice!!

What is needed is the Police chiefs to peruse these "laws" and then demand that they be made into proper laws that are clear and enforceable.
Perhaps they have , but I doubt it.
		
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Perhaps what you mean is we expect the police to jail everyone who breaks those rules, except when it's us and we then claim police state/brutaility.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

This year is defo taking its toll now

I saw a friend put up pic of his kids 4th bday on FB , I was like wow she must be year above my daughter thought they were same year 

Then I remembered it's 2021 not 2020


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I don't know what these covid penalties are. However I received a Section 59 for ludicrous reasons that were completely untrue. And even though I had a dash cam and telemetry of my driving, there was no way to appeal.

That was a semi permanent mark on my car that made me get pulled over stupid amounts following, and if I received another one my car would have been seized.
		
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I have looked up section 59, ( I was unaware of it). I see your reason for annoyance as I cannot see where you are allowed to demand an examination of the allegations in Court. I believe you should be allowed to.
However, this Act would have been passed in law by Parliament, so it is not the police who decided this to be law.
Have you considered contacting your MP about it?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 12, 2021)

No bashing, but having dealt with it first hand for 30 years, my view will be formed, or clouded if you prefer, by my experience. 



oxymoron said:



			Not Poilce bashing as i believe they are in an impossible position, however your statement does nothing to help suggesting , without proof they were lying or exaggerating
		
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And are you, without proof, not accepting every word of their account from a newspaper with a known agenda?  I'd suggest I've done no more than you there, just fallen the other side of the fence.



oxymoron said:



			in which case causes further angst towards officers doing an impossible job implementing these "guidelines" ,i am not aware that they are actual laws but happy to be proven wrong.
		
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There has been an awful lot of legislation passed, in very short order, in circumstances where the police will have great trouble keeping fully abreast of it.  However if FPN's were issued I find it difficult to believe that there is not a statute offence; how it is worded, & how dependent on the guidance & its interpretation the offence is, I have no idea.



oxymoron said:



			If it is as stated by the Police , why not release bodycam evidence ? If indeed they were equipped with them ?
		
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Because it would potentially prejudice any trial, if indeed it was worn?  At the time they still had the option of contesting the FPN in court.  And how would the public take to a trial being conducted by media?  I'd suggest that they'd be even worse off than they currently are. 



oxymoron said:



			Surely a word with them would have sufficed instead of using a sledgehammer to crack , in this case , a small nut ?
		
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This is a preferred tactic in a society that is policed by consent, however it is dependant on a couple of things; the ability of the recipient of "the word" to listen to said word, and the ability to understand that it is usually not a negotiable offer, but very much take it or leave it.  Quite a lot of the weekend's evening customers were people who had been given "a word", but were either deaf, stupid or some combination of the two.  The offence used to be affectionately known amongst law enforcement practitioners as "talking when they should have been listening".  Maybe the ladies were offered a word but declined it?



oxymoron said:



			And if indeed the officer classes a coffee\tea as a picnic ,, well we all need to step back and consider what we are doing and if indeed it is in the guidelines .
		
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I'm sure the officer doesn't consider it a picnic.  I wouldn't be surprised if a throwaway comment was made, probably during a word that was being had but not listened to, which has now been turned against them.  It wouldn't be the first time as I can attest. 



oxymoron said:



			As i said i am not anti Police but sometimes you wonder what goes through some officers heads and this gives other officers a bit of a bad rep .

I await the bashing ,,,
		
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I'm not averse to criticism if it is justified; I didn't always get it right, nor did all of my colleagues, but we did get an awful lot more right than wrong, and a hell of a lot more right than the Daily Mail will ever give us credit for.  And this one just doesn't ring true to me.  Happy to agree to disagree.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2021)

So the summary today was a bit mixed 

Number of cases dropping 

Number of deaths increased 

Vaccine centres opening up 

Still on track to be at the level they want in terms of vaccine numbers 

45000 fixed penalty notices given

Front line workers to have the vaccine after  the vunerable


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 12, 2021)

S


Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps what you mean is we expect the police to jail everyone who breaks those rules, except when it's us and we then claim police state/brutaility.
		
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Sorry, Bunker, I'm not sure I understand what your comment is meant to say in relation to what I wrote.😀
I can only reiterate that about the subject of what we can and can't do re Covid ( and what is expected of the police in respect of it), the government should make laws and not guidance. And Police Chiefs should demand that.


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## larmen (Jan 12, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Homeschooling went better today. I still feel like I'm working 3 jobs from home but it's progress.
		
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What age are you ‘teaching’?

I ‘teach’ reception, and we are having daily phonics and math session to complete (as much as we can).
Offstead rates me appalling ;-(


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			What age are you ‘teaching’?

I ‘teach’ reception, and we are having daily phonics and math session to complete (as much as we can).
Offstead rates me appalling ;-(
		
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you have my utmost sympathies and admiration teaching reception. For anyone that don’t know it’s like trying to teach 30 forummers inc me.☹️


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

Sky news story just Come out. Don’t know how to share the link.

Quote
“Pressure on the NHS will not start to reduce until March, ministers have been warned - amid fears that new infections could be running at more than 250,000 a day.”
“Downing Street has been told by government scientists that the rollout of the vaccines is unlikely to cause the mortality rate to decline until later in February”.

And yet later in the story Boris is under pressure from back benchers to come out of the lockdown on march 8th.How do they know what the death and infection rates will be on March 8th🤬


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Sky news story just Come out. Don’t know how to share the link.

Quote
“Pressure on the NHS will not start to reduce until March, ministers have been warned - amid fears that new infections could be running at more than 250,000 a day.”
“Downing Street has been told by government scientists that the rollout of the vaccines is unlikely to cause the mortality rate to decline until later in February”.

And yet later in the story Boris is under pressure from back benchers to come out of the lockdown on march 8th.How do they know what the death and infection rates will be on March 8th🤬
		
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I think you mean this one https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...re-on-nhs-may-not-reduce-until-march-12186135

To be honest that matches what we've been planning for and our current prediction given current numbers and trend is we will not have scaled back into a normal 21 bed unit until Easter


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## Ethan (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Sky news story just Come out. Don’t know how to share the link.

Quote
“Pressure on the NHS will not start to reduce until March, ministers have been warned - amid fears that new infections could be running at more than 250,000 a day.”
“Downing Street has been told by government scientists that the rollout of the vaccines is unlikely to cause the mortality rate to decline until later in February”.

And yet later in the story Boris is under pressure from back benchers to come out of the lockdown on march 8th.How do they know what the death and infection rates will be on March 8th🤬
		
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It will be a miracle if pressure on the NHS eases by then. Once the Covid numbers drop, a large pent up demand for lots of other healthcare will burst forward.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			you have my utmost sympathies and admiration teaching reception. For anyone that don’t know it’s like trying to teach 30 forummers inc me.☹️
		
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Like herding cats


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It will be a miracle if pressure on the NHS eases by then. Once the Covid numbers drop, a large pent up demand for lots of other healthcare will burst forward.
		
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I agree but from a totally selfish perspective it will give my colleagues some needed downtime and respite. Places like outpatients, theatres etc will be swamped and I am sure we'll end up sending staff to support those areas (we're a family after all). For now though, get to March and hopefully for ICU a semblance of normality


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think you mean this one https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...re-on-nhs-may-not-reduce-until-march-12186135

To be honest that matches what we've been planning for and our current prediction given current numbers and trend is we will not have scaled back into a normal 21 bed unit until Easter
		
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Homer/ Ethan, being an average Joe it’s hard sometimes to try and understand what’s actually happening, what’s happening from a media angle, yes a political angle and people that have an agenda angle. 1/4 million cases is truly shocking and this country is in the midst of a massive shockwave. 
Stay safe forumears.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 12, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think you mean this one https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...re-on-nhs-may-not-reduce-until-march-12186135

To be honest that matches what we've been planning for and our current prediction given current numbers and trend is we will not have scaled back into a normal 21 bed unit until Easter
		
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I think they were talking about (last week) lockdown until half term and then back to tiers until Easter 

I'd take lockdown until Easter, yeah no golf but meh much as I enjoy it long as we get this final push done ...plenty of time afters


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## SteveJay (Jan 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway - the Home Sec. is currently being very clear. The basic rule is to stay at home and that we should not be looking to act within the limits
		
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Is she being very clear though? This is what I am struggling with. 

The basic "rule" is to stay at home, but it isn't actually a rule in the true sense, as the "rules" permit exercise, essential shopping etc. etc etc. I think the expectation that the public will see the boundaries but make a conscious decision to set and adhere to their own, more stringent limits, is proving to be failing.

I think the time has come to make the rules just that, the limits. Incidents throughout the pandemic have shown people can't exercise the desired (by Govt.)  discretion and need clear unambiguous "rules" beyond which they face penalties. Just my opinion!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Sky news story just Come out. Don’t know how to share the link.

Quote
“Pressure on the NHS will not start to reduce until March, ministers have been warned - amid fears that new infections could be running at more than 250,000 a day.”
“Downing Street has been told by government scientists that the rollout of the vaccines is unlikely to cause the mortality rate to decline until later in February”.

And yet later in the story Boris is under pressure from back benchers to come out of the lockdown on march 8th.How do they know what the death and infection rates will be on March 8th🤬
		
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I always thought NEWS was what’s happened and they tell you about it in the bulletin.
Now they just make up some figures and report it as news 
May and Could are used a lot these days.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			What age are you ‘teaching’?

I ‘teach’ reception, and we are having daily phonics and math session to complete (as much as we can).
Offstead rates me appalling ;-(
		
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I’m not a teacher, I’m meaning I’m now the IT support guy and class room assistant for my 8 y/o daughter while she’s remotely schooled as well as having the stress of my own job. We have no family network or childcare to rely upon so I’ve been working from home and looking after her at the same time throughout. It’s hard but as I’ve said previously, not as hard as it is for others. I have utmost respect for teachers trying to work through this without enough resources, it was all avoidable but here we are.

Better days ahead.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is advice on shopping and some stores are at last getting back to ensuring it happens so do I take it you have broken this rule.
		
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we are happy to comply with the one from a household only constraint when it applies but I am not aware that it is in force for shopping at the moment.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 12, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I’m not a teacher, I’m meaning I’m now the IT support guy and class room assistant for my 8 y/o daughter while she’s remotely schooled as well as having the stress of my own job. We have no family network or childcare to rely upon so I’ve been working from home and looking after her at the same time throughout. It’s hard but as I’ve said previously, not as hard as it is for others. I have utmost respect for teachers trying to work through this without enough resources, it was all avoidable but here we are.

Better days ahead.
		
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Just think how your daughter feels.
Being schooled , while having to do your job must be very difficult


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 12, 2021)

Daily positive cases are down and the trend of those daily cases is flatten out at worst - then the affect of the lockdown will have an affect on the numbers with the expectation that they will continue to drop 

The numbers in South East have dropped and also London showing that the move into Tier 4 was also starting to take affect 

Maybe i being too positive about things and it’s hard with all the media only ever posting the negative side of everything. 

I can see us going from lockdown until Tiers after half term in the same way we did after November lockdown 

A lockdown Easter just will have too much negative affect on many areas - I don’t see the government wanting that in any way


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## Fade and Die (Jan 12, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree but from a totally selfish perspective it will give my colleagues some needed downtime and respite. Places like outpatients, theatres etc will be swamped and I am sure we'll end up *sending staff to support those areas (we're a family after all).* For now though, get to March and hopefully for ICU a semblance of normality
		
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This is something I don’t understand, I know that Respiratory and ICU is snowed under but large parts of the Hospital is closed, Clinics are being cancelled, A&E  is also very quiet so why are these departments not sending staff to the busy areas? 
Family friend is an Agency ICU nurse, working in a hospital East of London, she said that so many of the NHS staff are self isolating and not turning up for shifts. Sometimes up to 70% of the shift are Agency. She is supposed to look after 1 bed. Last week one night she had to look after 5. Are you experiencing similar?....think the Hospital is offering £10 an hour extra just to entice bodies in!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 12, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			This is something I don’t understand, I know that Respiratory and ICU is snowed under but large parts of the Hospital is closed, Clinics are being cancelled, A&E  is also very quiet so why are these departments not sending staff to the busy areas?
Family friend is an Agency ICU nurse, working in a hospital East of London, she said that so many of the NHS staff are self isolating and not turning up for shifts. Sometimes up to 70% of the shift are Agency. She is supposed to look after 1 bed. Last week one night she had to look after 5. Are you experiencing similar?....think the Hospital is offering £10 an hour extra just to entice bodies in!
		
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Our local minor injuries unit in the community hospital has closed as the staff have been sent to the regional Hospital.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 12, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			This is something I don’t understand, I know that Respiratory and ICU is snowed under but large parts of the Hospital is closed, Clinics are being cancelled, A&E  is also very quiet so why are these departments not sending staff to the busy areas?
Family friend is an Agency ICU nurse, working in a hospital East of London, she said that so many of the NHS staff are self isolating and not turning up for shifts. Sometimes up to 70% of the shift are Agency. She is supposed to look after 1 bed. Last week one night she had to look after 5. Are you experiencing similar?....think the Hospital is offering £10 an hour extra just to entice bodies in!
		
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A&E definitely not quiet and we're still having breaches. Not all Covid and all the usual other stuff (OD's cardiac, respiratory - asthma etc, broken limbs) and not helped with with large numbers of staff self-isolating. We're trying as much as possible to keep business as usual so outpatients etc going ahead as much as possible as well as as many other wards not being used for Covid being used for their usual treatments. 

We are offering NHSP (additional shifts) to our staff at additional rate to compensate for the inconvenience, especially as we have been wafer thin at times. We've been around £10ph extra as well but the amount we can pay is to a degree dictated by the trusts agreement with NHS Professionals. Where and when demand in other areas has slackened those staff are being redeployed but sometimes you can't put nurses into some areas due to the lack of training on specialised equipment. With the rostering it's about seeing what you have as a starting point, which in itself can change at the last minute, then seeing what reserves you have from offering extra shifts to your own staff and who you can pull in from other departments. From there you are looking at other areas like ODP's and Theatre Practitioners (some theatres are on hold - we've taken over a recovery theatre which has a knock on effect) and as a final resort agency staff.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 12, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A&E definitely not quiet and we're still having breaches. Not all Covid and all the usual other stuff (OD's cardiac, respiratory - asthma etc, broken limbs) and not helped with with large numbers of staff self-isolating. We're trying as much as possible to keep business as usual so outpatients etc going ahead as much as possible as well as as many other wards not being used for Covid being used for their usual treatments.

We are offering NHSP (additional shifts) to our staff at additional rate to compensate for the inconvenience, especially as we have been wafer thin at times. We've been around £10ph extra as well but the amount we can pay is to a degree dictated by the trusts agreement with NHS Professionals. Where and when demand in other areas has slackened those staff are being redeployed but sometimes you can't put nurses into some areas due to the lack of training on specialised equipment. With the rostering it's about seeing what you have as a starting point, which in itself can change at the last minute, then seeing what reserves you have from offering extra shifts to your own staff and who you can pull in from other departments. From there you are looking at other areas like ODP's and Theatre Practitioners (some theatres are on hold - we've taken over a recovery theatre which has a knock on effect) and as a final resort agency staff.
		
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Hopefully because you are (rightfully) getting the vaccinations, within a week or two you won’t have the problem with large numbers of staff self isolating? 
Keep your chin up Homer...It’s dark now but there is a tiny light at the end of the tunnel.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite...but that was the reason the bloke gave,  and so my conclusion that some are not 100% totally committed to what we need to do.

What do I do if I am wearing glasses when going into a store?  I take them off so they don't steam up.  My eyesight isn't brilliant but it is good enough for me to find what I need to buy.  And if I can't find it I ask an assistant.  When I leave I put my glasses back on.
		
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that may work for you but some people cannot see much at all without glasses so a pretty crass comment


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2021)

Our local GP's health centre have now vaccinated all of the over 80's and vulnerable patients in their surgery.
They think they will be starting on the 65 to 80 group early February.
Numbers starting to look a bit better in our area, nearly 3 weeks after Christmas so fingers crossed it stays that way.


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## SatchFan (Jan 13, 2021)

Just come back from my weekly shop at Sainsbury's. Everybody masked up and keeping their distance. Only an observation, and I know there are still some idiots out there, but it does seem that this latest mutation has made people think a bit more about what they are doing.


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## Whereditgo (Jan 13, 2021)

Lost a cousin to Covid yesterday, mid 60's and no real health problems before this, he hung on for a week on a respirator but finally succumbed yesterday evening 

To give an idea of the pressure the NHS is currently under from staff shortages; at the hospital my partner works at 11 out of 17 ward staff on one ward alone tested positive for Covid this week, that was on a general ward too.

On a more positive note, the local trust carried out a trial this week of a new treatment, inhalation of a protein called interferon beta, which appears to reduce the odds of developing severe disease by 80% and it will now be trialled nationwide.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			Just come back from my weekly shop at Sainsbury's. Everybody masked up and keeping their distance. Only an observation, and I know there are still some idiots out there, but it does seem that this latest mutation has made people think a bit more about what they are doing.
		
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Idiots don't wake up this early!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 13, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our local GP's health centre have now vaccinated all of the over 80's and vulnerable patients in their surgery.
They think they will be starting on the 65 to 80 group early February.
Numbers starting to look a bit better in our area, nearly 3 weeks after Christmas so fingers crossed it stays that way.
		
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Why the delay to starting on the next group? Is it a supply issue?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why the delay to starting on the next group? Is it a supply issue?
		
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I believe they are doing all the health/social/care workers next.
Interested to hear from my neighbour that the nurse told her she is getting her second vaccination in two weeks time.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Lost a cousin to Covid yesterday, mid 60's and no real health problems before this, he hung on for a week on a respirator but finally succumbed yesterday evening 

To give an idea of the pressure the NHS is currently under from staff shortages; at the hospital my partner works at 11 out of 17 ward staff on one ward alone tested positive for Covid this week, that was on a general ward too.

On a more positive note, the local trust carried out a trial this week of a new treatment, inhalation of a protein called interferon beta, which appears to reduce the odds of developing severe disease by 80% and it will now be trialled nationwide.
		
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Interferon beta is an established, almost outdated, treatment for MS, delivered as an injection to patients. I worked on it in the early noughties. It plays a key role in the immune system and is a highly plausible treatment especially when delivered by inhalation for this condition. I hope the trials work out. It should be well tolerated with few problems.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why the delay to starting on the next group? *Is it a supply issue?*

Click to expand...

Yes, probably. It appears they allocate a consignment matched to the group being treated. Supply is the rate limiting step right now. Shortly that might change to staffing.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 13, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I believe they are doing all the health/social/care workers next.
Interested to hear from my neighbour that the nurse told her she is getting her second vaccination in two weeks time.
		
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Ok that makes sense. I got the (wrong) impression from your post that they were taking a break. I'd forgotten about the other high priority groups. 👍


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## SatchFan (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Idiots don't wake up this early!
		
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Ha ha. Hadn't thought of that.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Idiots don't wake up this early!
		
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I really really don't get people who question the masks, the virus being real etc 

Why would any government want their economy to tank ? 

I suppose they all like having to borrow lots of money and be slated constantly just to make everyone suffer?

Wake up people


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2021)

Those nurses and front line care workers that have had Covid. Yes it would be nice to have them back at work. But if they are owt like Mr and Missis T were knackered most of the time so lord knows what it’s like having to go back to work.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I really really don't get people who question the masks, the virus being real etc

Why would any government want their economy to tank ?

I suppose they all like having to borrow lots of money and be slated constantly just to make everyone suffer?

Wake up people
		
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I think the bigger problem is people who see fighting the health consequences as being opposed to fighting the economy. I think it should becoming obvious even to them that the two must go hand in hand.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think the bigger problem is people who see fighting the health consequences as being opposed to fighting the economy. I think it should becoming obvious even to them that the two must go hand in hand.
		
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The irony of which that those who took a harsh approach have seen less deaths and their economies bounce back quicker 

There is no harm admiting you got it wrong and change tactic 

However that point happened in may time 

Problem we have in this country that's proven during this is the great British people don't like being told what to do


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## GB72 (Jan 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The irony of which that those who took a harsh approach have seen less deaths and their economies bounce back quicker

There is no harm admiting you got it wrong and change tactic

However that point happened in may time

Problem we have in this country that's proven during this is the great British people don't like being told what to do
		
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Report today on the BBC website is that compliance with this lockdown is actually at about the same levels of May, some increase in bending the rules mainly in relation to meeting outdoors but the actual picture is mainly one of compliance.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



*The irony of which that those who took a harsh approach have seen less deaths and their economies bounce back quicker*

There is no harm admiting you got it wrong and change tactic

However that point happened in may time

Problem we have in this country that's proven during this is the great British people don't like being told what to do
		
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And that was the lesson of Spanish flu and subsequent epidemics, and well known to economists and public health people, but some people just don't listen.

Some people don't like being told what to do, but they won't like a ET tube being put down their trachea or a nasty inflammatory long Covid either.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Report today on the BBC website is that compliance with this lockdown is actually at about the same levels of May, some increase in bending the rules mainly in relation to meeting outdoors but the actual picture is mainly one of compliance.
		
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However the point is the level of compliance isn't so much the issue it's the level of restrictions

Australia for example were following our model

They switched models and now they have posted 927 deaths throughout covid I believe it was 

How many is ours now? That's just our daily recently which is depressing


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## oxymoron (Jan 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No bashing, but having dealt with it first hand for 30 years, my view will be formed, or clouded if you prefer, by my experience.



And are you, without proof, not accepting every word of their account from a newspaper with a known agenda?  I'd suggest I've done no more than you there, just fallen the other side of the fence._ Where did i say i believed the women ?I just said it looks like you believe the officer with out proof _.

There has been an awful lot of legislation passed, in very short order, in circumstances where the police will have great trouble keeping fully abreast of it.  However if FPN's were issued I find it difficult to believe that there is not a statute offence; how it is worded, & how dependent on the guidance & its interpretation the offence is, I have no idea._ You would not rescind a fine if it was issued correctly and lawfully unless you are pandering to the public view of the event.Again i am happy to be proven wrong ._



Because it would potentially prejudice any trial, if indeed it was worn?  At the time they still had the option of contesting the FPN in court.  And how would the public take to a trial being conducted by media?  I'd suggest that they'd be even worse off than they currently are_.I do not see how it could predjudice anything ,surely if the events happened they happened so there is a record that can be shown to be true if bodycams were worn and switched on ._



This is a preferred tactic in a society that is policed by consent, however it is dependant on a couple of things; the ability of the recipient of "the word" to listen to said word, and the ability to *understand that it is usually not a negotiable offer*, but very much take it or leave it.  Quite a lot of the weekend's evening customers were people who had been given "a word", but were either deaf, stupid or some combination of the two.  The offence used to be affectionately known amongst law enforcement practitioners as "talking when they should have been listening".  Maybe the ladies were offered a word but declined it?_ So the advice\word becomes a command ? I do not understand how guidelines can become strict commands _



I'm sure the officer doesn't consider it a picnic.  I wouldn't be surprised if a throwaway comment was made, probably during a word that was being had but not listened to, which has now been turned against them.  It wouldn't be the first time as I can attest_.I am sure a member of the public has uttered a "throw away comment " that an officer has then turned back on them , it is a two way street , if he did not mean the comment, he was in an emotive situation and everything was going to be picked up on the widespread use of smartphones means everything is going to be recorded and used  ._



I'm not averse to criticism if it is justified; I didn't always get it right, nor did all of my colleagues, but we did get an awful lot more right than wrong, and a hell of a lot more right than the Daily Mail will ever give us credit for.  And this one just doesn't ring true to me.  Happy to agree to disagree. 

Click to expand...

_ I may appear to be criticising and i suppose it comes across as that but i just dont like to be told one side of things, it is unfair the police in this occasion were hung out to dry, but someone must have given those officers instruction and those people need to be sure what they are doing is proper and correct and answer for their actions . 
I am sure 99.999% of officers do not want to be in this position they will want to be doing the job they signed up for and if the public had any sense they would be able to do so ._


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## Crazyface (Jan 13, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Our local GP's health centre have now vaccinated all of the over 80's and vulnerable patients in their surgery.
They think they will be starting on the 65 to 80 group early February.
Numbers starting to look a bit better in our area, nearly 3 weeks after Christmas so fingers crossed it stays that way.
		
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Why the delay? Not having a go, but just noticed a gap and wondered why the doctors weren't just cracking on.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Why the delay? Not having a go, but just noticed a gap and wondered why the doctors weren't just cracking on.
		
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Read and you shall learn


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## GB72 (Jan 13, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Why the delay? Not having a go, but just noticed a gap and wondered why the doctors weren't just cracking on.
		
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This is only a guess, but I would have thought that they have to vaccinate everyone in the higher groups nationally before they move on to the next level


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Report today on the BBC website is that *compliance with this lockdown is actually at about the same levels of Ma*y, some increase in bending the rules mainly in relation to meeting outdoors but the actual picture is mainly one of compliance.
		
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That’s the bit that surprises me. We now know this strain is more infectious than Mack in May, but the compliance is still the same.


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## GB72 (Jan 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That’s the bit that surprises me. We now know this strain is more infectious than Mack in May, but the compliance is still the same.
		
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Interestingly a report that the new strain may not be as infectious as first thought (could be as low as 30% as opposed to 70%). Still not great but looking at any positives. 

Not sure on the point you are making. People were generally praised for the levels of compliance back in May and I think that this is a welcome survey that actually tries to counteract the media presented image of mass numbers of people totally ignoring the lockdown.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However the point is the level of compliance isn't so much the issue it's the level of restrictions

Australia for example were following our model

They switched models and now they have posted 927 deaths throughout covid I believe it was

How many is ours now? That's just our daily recently which is depressing
		
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I don’t think you can compare countries when looking at how each has dealt with the virus

Each county has different make ups - land size , population density , working patterns etc etc 

So many different variables hence why I don’t believe there is a one size fits all


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think you can compare countries when looking at how each has dealt with the virus

Each county has different make ups - land size , population density , working patterns etc etc 

So many different variables hence why I don’t believe there is a one size fits all
		
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Whilst I agree in parts .. the irony is one hard lockdown would have cost the economy less overall than these little and often ones we are at now and our numbers wouldn't be so out of control 

Not closing international arrivals straight away was a massive error


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I agree in parts .. the irony is one hard lockdown would have cost the economy less overall than these little and often ones we are at now and our numbers wouldn't be so out of control

Not closing international arrivals straight away was a massive error
		
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It’s impossible to tell what the affect of one hard lockdown would have been - and it’s also impossible to tell if we wouldn’t have had another lockdown 

Essentially the first lockdown worked for what they wanted to do 

The levels of cases were dramatically decreased 

It was only late summer when the encouragement to “eat out” and then pubs and the change in weather meant the virus was going to spread again - the virus will never disappear - It was all a waiting game until the vaccine 

This will prob be the last lockdown we have - there will be some tiers for a while and life will start being normal from mid summer for us all


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## GB72 (Jan 13, 2021)

In future I would also be interested to see how the seasonal element impacted on the control of Covid. Not looking to get into the debate about actions taken but simply at the fact that Australia and New Zealand were just hitting Winter when Covid struck and so had their first lockdowns at a time when people were at the greatest risk. Once they were over, they were in the Summer months when most people seem to agree that transmission is at a far lower level. Europe, on the other hand, had to either look at an immediate lockdown for basically a year or be aware that any any good work in the Summer was going to impacted by the arrival of Winter and conditions in which Covid could thrive.


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## drdel (Jan 13, 2021)

It might be worth noting that this is a worldwide situation. The UK, as a global hub would find it very difficult to isolate itself internationally. As before the UK immunisations programme reaches a critical mass there will still be the risk of 'importing' the bug.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This is only a guess, but I would have thought that they have to vaccinate everyone in the higher groups nationally before they move on to the next level
		
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This   Confirmed on breakfast today.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That’s the bit that surprises me. We now know this strain is more infectious than Mack in May, but the compliance is still the same.
		
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To comply people have to follow some fairly simple rules. Those rules are quite capable of controlling the virus but if they don't wish to comply then we get what we are currently experiencing.


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## hovis (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			This   Confirmed on breakfast today.
		
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Yes but they also said they wouldnt sit around waiting for the dregs to come through and they'd move on to the next group as soon as there is space


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## hovis (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			To comply people have to follow some fairly simple rules. Those rules are quite capable of controlling the virus but if they don't wish to comply then we get what we are currently experiencing.
		
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Back in March a brick layer couldn't transmit it to his family because they where locked down.  Neither could mcdonald's staff and many more shops and services that are open today that wasn't in March.  You only have to look at the roads to see how different it is to March. 
Even if the guidelines at work are followed it is still easier to catch than it is at home


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## Beezerk (Jan 13, 2021)

I've had two customers now tell me that Scotland is going for a 2 week shutdown of construction and manufacturing. Both received phone calls from Scottish suppliers warning them they may have issue getting goods to them in the coming weeks.
Hmmmmm.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

China is pissed of with BoJo stating it "may" have come from China.

Beijing's foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said  "Groundless conjecture or hype-up of the issue will only disrupt normal international co-operation on origin-tracing," *REALLY! *China only allowed the WHO in on monday. Over a year after the initial outbreak and they don't have the level of access they want. I think that might be far more disruptive....


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## Fade and Die (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			China is pissed of with BoJo stating it "may" have come from China.

Beijing's foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said  "Groundless conjecture or hype-up of the issue will only disrupt normal international co-operation on origin-tracing," *REALLY! *China only allowed the WHO in on monday. Over a year after the initial outbreak and they don't have the level of access they want. I think that might be far more disruptive....
		
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Yep only Trump had the stones to call it what it was. Everyone else tip-toeing around for fear of offending the Chinese for some reason.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yep only Trump had the stones to call it what it was. Everyone else tip-toeing around for fear of offending the Chinese for some reason.
		
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Is it OK to call the new strain the British Variant, then? Arguably the poor response in the UK allowed it to evolve here.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Is it OK to call the new strain the British Variant, then? Arguably the poor response in the UK allowed it to evolve here.
		
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Of course it is, along with the South African.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Is it OK to call the new strain the British Variant, then? Arguably the poor response in the UK allowed it to evolve here.
		
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Thought they traced it to South Africa?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 13, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Why the delay? Not having a go, but just noticed a gap and wondered why the doctors weren't just cracking on.
		
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They have just said that over 80% of the over 80's have had the jab in Scotland.
So perhaps our surgery just started/finished well, they are a very organised practice.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Thought they traced it to South Africa?
		
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I thought they were blaming Kent?
Is it anyone’s fault a virus mutates.?


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Thought they traced it to South Africa?
		
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That is a different one. My point is that the blame game is unhelpful right now. Trump is more interested in fighting battles than getting stuff done.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought they were blaming Kent?
Is it anyone’s fault a virus mutates.?
		
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It can be due to poor suppression of the virus, so called virus escape, where applying a degree of suppression removes only the weaker variants and lets the stronger and more pathogenic strains evolve faster. The same argument has been made by some people about the delay between first and second vaccine, arguing that incomplete immunity is hazardous.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought they were blaming Kent?
Is it anyone’s fault a virus mutates.?
		
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There are a few mutants in Kent so it might be possible?😆


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## GreiginFife (Jan 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yep only Trump had the stones to call it what it was. Everyone else tip-toeing around for fear of offending the Chinese for some reason.
		
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Not really sure where to start with this one, initially by hoping you aren't serious. 

The orange faced buffoon didn't call it that because that's really what it's called, it already has a name. He called it that for two very clear reasons;

A) He is a racist chump and the context in which he uses that phrase is appalling. He, and the rest of the world have strong suspicion that it originated in China, but have we seen conclusive proof? If you think being a racist chump is "having stones" then you need to think about that long and hard. 

B) He needed to deflect from his utterly abysmal record of dealing with the virus, so he created the "boogeyman" that is the 'China Virus' so his equally racist chump supporting rednecks would stop thinking (for want of a better phrase) about how absolutely shite his administrations response had been and start looking elsewhere to apportion blame. A tactic that was more than moderately successful, which is probably the saddest part of the whole thing. 

No one is "tip-toing" around, many have stated they believe that China had a large part to play in it. But you will note, not many (because they are adults) went around giving it a playground name.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is a different one. My point is that the blame game is unhelpful right now. Trump is more interested in fighting battles than getting stuff done.
		
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I’m no fan of the Trump but I don’t see why we should worry about upsetting China? The way they mishandled the outbreak in the beginning was criminal.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			He, and the rest of the world have strong suspicion that it originated in China, but have we seen conclusive proof?.
		
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The Who still haven't entered China to gather Conclusive proof. They haven't been allowed.

We do know they that the case numbers there are fabricated.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			The Who still haven't entered China to gather Conclusive proof. They haven't been allowed.
		
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Precisely my point. Once the evidence is clear, have at it. 

The one thing I know is that we won't get fooled again...


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## Fade and Die (Jan 13, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Not really sure where to start with this one, initially by hoping you aren't serious.

The orange faced buffoon didn't call it that because that's really what it's called, it already has a name. He called it that for two very clear reasons;

A) He is a racist chump and the context in which he uses that phrase is appalling. He, and the rest of the world have strong suspicion that it originated in China, but have we seen conclusive proof? If you think being a racist chump is "having stones" then you need to think about that long and hard.

B) He needed to deflect from his utterly abysmal record of dealing with the virus, so he created the "boogeyman" that is the 'China Virus' so his equally racist chump supporting rednecks would stop thinking (for want of a better phrase) about how absolutely shite his administrations response had been and start looking elsewhere to apportion blame. A tactic that was more than moderately successful, which is probably the saddest part of the whole thing.

No one is "tip-toing" around, many have stated they believe that China had a large part to play in it. But you will note, not many (because they are adults) went around giving it a playground name.
		
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 That’s a big political post, Let’s not ruin this thread with Trump, who I am certainly no fan of... My point was in response to Danfst post #14319


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## GreiginFife (Jan 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			That’s a big political post, Let’s not ruin this thread with Trump, who I am certainly no fan of... My point was in response to Danfst post #14319
		
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And you think Trump calling it the China Virus was in no way political...?

Time to shoogle that heid.

Edit: My post was not political, but factual. 

The main highlight, which I see you expertly deflected, is in thinking that being a racist cracker is in someway akin to "having stones".


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			To comply people have to follow some fairly simple rules. Those rules are quite capable of controlling the virus but if they don't wish to comply then we get what we are currently experiencing.
		
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Read a quote earlier that went along the lines of

” if people move they die, if people don’t move the virus dies”

Thought it summed it up quite well.


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## GB72 (Jan 13, 2021)

Interesting that Indonesia has bucked the trend and is vaccinating people of working age first. The argument is that they are likely to be out and about and spread the illness and so it protects more people by vaccinating them first. I guess the validity of that argument is wholly based on whether the vaccine simply stops you getting ill when you get covid or stops your spreading it as well. Will be interesting to see how that pans out.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 13, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			And you think Trump calling it the China Virus was in no way political...?

Time to shoogle that heid.

Edit: My post was not political, but factual.

*The main highlight, which I see you expertly deflected, is in thinking that being a racist cracker is in someway akin to "having stones"*.
		
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I think your looking for something that is not there, surprised you haven’t asked if I have an “agenda” 😴


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## GreiginFife (Jan 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I think your looking for something that is not there, surprised you haven’t asked if I have an “agenda” 😴
		
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No, no agenda seeking. Just sad to see someone think like that, with or without an agenda.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Is it OK to call the new strain the British Variant, then? Arguably the poor response in the UK allowed it to evolve here.
		
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and the Spanish flu which killed 50 million originated in Trumpland. 😳☹️
That aside, obviously the Origin of the Spanish flu are well documented. But how or why is it so important as to where the Viruses actually start. 🤔


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## GB72 (Jan 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			and the Spanish flu which killed 50 million originated in Trumpland. 😳☹️
That aside, obviously the Origin of the Spanish flu are well documented. But how or why is it so important as to where the Viruses actually start. 🤔
		
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It really is not but it makes a handy deflection for stricter regulations or worsening figures if a country can make another one seem responsible for it. We are hardly popular globally at the moment and so to be able to tie our name to an increased lockdown or worsening infections puts us in the spotlight rather than who is actually making the decisions.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Interesting that Indonesia has bucked the trend and is vaccinating people of working age first. The argument is that they are likely to be out and about and spread the illness and so it protects more people by vaccinating them first. I guess the validity of that argument is wholly based on whether the vaccine simply stops you getting ill when you get covid or stops your spreading it as well. Will be interesting to see how that pans out.
		
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China are doing the same although their argument is more economics based. The working age people keep the economy and the country going and so they are prioritised. 

The Indonesian reasoning is an interesting one. There is logic to it although I don't think I could make that call. It doesn't make it wrong though. As you say it will be interesting to look back on and see which works best.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It really is not but it makes a handy deflection for stricter regulations or worsening figures if a country can make another one seem responsible for it. We are hardly popular globally at the moment and so to be able to tie our name to an increased lockdown or worsening infections puts us in the spotlight rather than who is actually making the decisions.
		
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I don't really care for the excuses etc.

However I get peeved when a country who has done nothing but hamper origin tracing and cooperated with no one, accuses us of doing it.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I don't really care for the excuses etc.

However I get peeved when a country who has done nothing but hamper origin tracing and cooperated with no one, accuses us of doing it.
		
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Origin tracing doesn't really help us now. That should be done but doesn't change the response to the pandemic now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			that may work for you but some people cannot see much at all without glasses so a pretty crass comment
		
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A crass comment - really?   I mentioned it as an example of where some do not appear to try 100% to work within the requirements of wearing a mask or visor. My point was that an excuse for not wearing a *visor *when in a store was that glasses steam up.  Well how do those who wear glasses cope?  They either take them off (as I do); continually wipe them clear; or apply something like some detergent to stop them misting up.

I was very clear about how _I _can manage without my glasses - and noted that if I cannot find something then I simply ask an assistant.  In fact I'll often just keep them on and wipe off misting.  As anyone can do.

Methinks you protest too much at my post.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			To comply people have to follow some fairly simple rules. Those rules are quite capable of controlling the virus but if they don't wish to comply then we get what we are currently experiencing.
		
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Apparently 4 in 5 do not understand the rules.

Well..

Do I understand 100% what the rules _permit _me to do in all circumstances ... NO
Do I understand 100% what the rules _require _me to do ... YES


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Is it OK to call the new strain the British Variant, then? Arguably the poor response in the UK allowed it to evolve here.
		
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Not according to someone I have heard commenting on Angela Merkel calling it that (but I can't say who commented as that would be political even although that same someone is of some influence and has views on managing the virus that would significantly impact us all - jeez)


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Interesting that Indonesia has bucked the trend and is vaccinating people of working age first. The argument is that they are likely to be out and about and spread the illness and so it protects more people by vaccinating them first. I guess the validity of that argument is wholly based on whether the vaccine simply stops you getting ill when you get covid or stops your spreading it as well. Will be interesting to see how that pans out.
		
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Starting with the highest risk group in the economically active population is sensible, and has been suggested in the UK too. The truth is that the priority has been determined to stop care home residents clogging up hospitals. That is a valid concern, but may not really be where the greatest risk of population harm lies.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 13, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Need some help understanding the math. A local news outlet reported this morning on 7 Areas of MK that have more than 1000 cases per 100k people. The area I live in is reported as having approx 1040 per 100k, with 98 cases reported. The area in question is circa 20k residents. If we have 98 confirmed cases for 20k people, how does that become 1040 for 100k?

If we multiply 20k x 5 to get 100k, why are  we multiplying 98 x 10+

My brain is hurting trying to understand this
		
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According to the same source, our area rate has now dropped by 40.2% over the last 7 days, to 533 per 100K, recording 52 cases in the last 7 days. Even though I still don't understand their maths, that's a bit of good news at least.


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			According to the same source, our area rate has now dropped by 40.2% over the last 7 days, to 533 per 100K, recording 52 cases in the last 7 days. Even though I still don't understand their maths, that's a bit of good news at least.
		
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where is this from and what time period does it cover? you may find its almost a week behind and youre actually in a better situation still


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			where is this from and what time period does it cover? you may find its almost a week behind and youre actually in a better situation still
		
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Useful source https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Updated daily and you can drill down to post code areas.


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## triple_bogey (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			The Who still haven't entered China to gather Conclusive proof. They haven't been allowed.

We do know they that the case numbers there are fabricated.
		
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Could be the fact that the WHO experts are to arrive on the 14th January.  Whilst the US has banned any investigations into the origins of Covid. 

As GreiginFife rightfully points out, we have yet to see CONCLUSIVE PROOF! But you and some other members have already made up you're minds. There's scientific reports that the virus was already present in places like Italy, Spain and the US weeks and months before the outbreak in Wuhan. 
I don't know if its pure ignorance to these facts or just plain old sinophobia? Doesn't the phrase ''innocent until proven guilty'' mean anything?



Fade and Die said:



			I’m no fan of the Trump but I don’t see why we should worry about upsetting China? *The way they mishandled the outbreak in the beginning was criminal*.
		
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Can we also be accused of doing the same thing also going by you're logic, considering our government knew about the mutated virus since September and didn't mention it to the world til Dec. And still allow flights out to other countries during that time.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			where is this from and what time period does it cover? you may find its almost a week behind and youre actually in a better situation still
		
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One of the local news outlets, figures based on last seven days apparently. Yesterday's rate was down significantly to 143 new cases for the whole town.


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## fundy (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Useful source https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Updated daily and you can drill down to post code areas.
		
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It is thanks, but the data is also 5 days ago not current (hence why I was asking to make sure ntw was aware of the potential time lag)


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

fundy said:



			It is thanks, but the data is also 5 days ago not current (hence why I was asking to make sure ntw was aware of the potential time lag)
		
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Im not sure that any of the information apart from the vaccine data is more up to date.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

triple_bogey said:



			Could be the fact that the WHO experts are to arrive on the 14th January.  Whilst the US has banned any investigations into the origins of Covid. 

As GreiginFife rightfully points out, we have yet to see CONCLUSIVE PROOF! But you and some other members have already made up you're minds. There's scientific reports that the virus was already present in places like Italy, Spain and the US weeks and months before the outbreak in Wuhan.
I don't know if its pure ignorance to these facts or just plain old sinophobia? Doesn't the phrase ''innocent until proven guilty'' mean anything?


Can we also be accused of doing the same thing also going by you're logic, considering our government knew about the mutated virus since September and didn't mention it to the world til Dec. And still allow flights out to other countries during that time.
		
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I could care less what the US are doing, I mentioned the UK and China in my post.

No one has been allowed in to investigate the strongly suspected origin for over a year. 

- There is proof that China silenced researchers and journalists when covid was in the wild. 
- There is proof that China chooses its case numbers seemingly at random. 

If I was the Chinese foreign minister, I’d probably be working on international relations behind closed doors, rather than having a pop at another countries leader for saying the virus “may” have originated there. 

You can call it sinophobia or whatever you like, I have nothing against the Chinese people. The Chinese government however are disgusting in my opinion. I’m glad I don’t have to ever go back.


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## road2ruin (Jan 13, 2021)

BBC reporting that a further 1,564 people have died in the UK within 28 days of a positive Covid test which is the biggest figure reported in a single day since the pandemic began. Obviously a startling figure and every death is a tragedy however why can't the BBC include the additional information that this number includes deaths going back to May 2020?

For me this is the difference between reporting the numbers in a sensible manner and another example of scaremongering. I am not suggesting that the numbers are suddenly going to drop by 1,000 if we take this data off but I feel it is important that it should be referenced.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			This   Confirmed on breakfast today.
		
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I cannot believe that , say, a rural area with fewer over 80s is going to hang around waiting for some other area at other end of Country to finish it's over 80s.
My GP area has just started the vaccination ( wife's sister , late 80s, got an appointment).  I know from the flu vaccination that the logistic set up, venue etc, is the same. I don't see that that is going to be put on hold to wait for another area to finish its over 80s.
If th y have the supplies they will crack on, surely?


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I cannot believe that , say, a rural area with fewer over 80s is going to hang around waiting for some other area at other end of Country to finish it's over 80s.
My GP area has just started the vaccination ( wife's sister , late 80s, got an appointment).  I know from the flu vaccination that the logistic set up, venue etc, is the same. I don't see that that is going to be put on hold to wait for another area to finish its over 80s.
If th y have the supplies they will crack on, surely?
		
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The supply is defined by the requirements which is one reason that community pharmacies arnt involved yet. NHS leaders have had their hands slapped for not providing data on usage by priority and told to get their house in order by the end of the week.
Very interesting listening to the select committee this afternoon, much more informative than normal chamber proceedings.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

I used to play football with a gentleman who is now the CEO of one of the health care trusts in London 

He isn't proud of the A&E wait times but he hoping it's a sign of numbers dropping, down from 24 hours for a bed to 12 hours


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I cannot believe that , say, a rural area with fewer over 80s is going to hang around waiting for some other area at other end of Country to finish it's over 80s.
My GP area has just started the vaccination ( wife's sister , late 80s, got an appointment).  I know from the flu vaccination that the logistic set up, venue etc, is the same. I don't see that that is going to be put on hold to wait for another area to finish its over 80s.
If th y have the supplies they will crack on, surely?
		
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I don't think that is the intention. Some places have a lot more older people than others, or have more dispersed populations. They should be pushing the pace in every local area.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			BBC reporting that a further 1,564 people have died in the UK within 28 days of a positive Covid test which is the biggest figure reported in a single day since the pandemic began. Obviously a startling figure and every death is a tragedy however why can't the BBC include the additional information that this number includes deaths going back to May 2020?

For me this is the difference between reporting the numbers in a sensible manner and another example of scaremongering. I am not suggesting that the numbers are suddenly going to drop by 1,000 if we take this data off but I feel it is important that it should be referenced.
		
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Because the perceived threat needs to remain high and personal threat needs to be maintained to stop people being complacent. So no positivity!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2021)

So the numbers of positive cases continued to level out , they believe the restrictions are now starting to take affect. I think it’s better to look at the more positive side


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the numbers of positive cases continued to level out , they believe the restrictions are now starting to take affect. I think it’s better to look at the more positive side
		
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Think the postive news about Asda getting the vaccine out was another bit to cling onto

More good news


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Apparently 4 in 5 do not understand the rules.

Well..

Do I understand 100% what the rules _permit _me to do in all circumstances ... NO
Do I understand 100% what the rules _require _me to do ... YES
		
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How do you know 4 out of 5 don't understand the rules , why is that apparent?

There are three important rules to control the virus: Hands, Face and Space, all other rules are derivatives from these.  If you don't understand what you need to do to prevent catching or spreading the virus then you need a poke in the ribs with a pointy stick.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How do you know 4 out of 5 don't understand the rules , why is that apparent?

There are three important rules to control the virus: Hands, Face and Space, all other rules are derivatives from these.  If you don't understand what you need to do to prevent catching or spreading the virus then you need a poke in the ribs with a pointy stick.
		
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Love to see the source for this


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## IainP (Jan 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Report today on the BBC website is that compliance with this lockdown is actually at about the same levels of May, some increase in bending the rules mainly in relation to meeting outdoors but the actual picture is mainly one of compliance.
		
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Sounds good, I couldn't quickly locate the article but am conscious that golf restarted in England on the 13th of May (so I equate with coming out of "lockdown"). Perhaps comparing with May may a bit vague.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 13, 2021)

Had a rd trip today. Doctors, mums on way home to see if there ok after vaccination. Aldi for a basket of essentials. Whilst in Aldi, one of the workers is filling shopping bags for the new click and collect or delivery, whatever. Anyway I heard her say “ can you please pull your mask over your nose”.I looked up and she was talking to the guy stood a Couple of yards from me. “He said yes, er pull yours up as well”. I looked at her and she had it so it was covering her nostrils slightly, but I wouldn’t of moaned. He turned to me and said” that’s bollox innit, she’s moaning at me but look at her”.  I just said “ look you know the rules if you don’t like it don’t shop here”. At that point his Missis came round the corner and said “ wassup” he told her and she said “ stop being a tit and do as your told”. At that point he went into a sulk.
Point is there are still folk out there that for whatever reason just don’t get it. On the day we have the highest deaths. Unbelievable Jeff.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Starting with the highest risk group in the economically active population is sensible, and has been suggested in the UK too. The truth is that the priority has been determined to stop care home residents clogging up hospitals. That is a valid concern, but may not really be where the greatest risk of population harm lies.
		
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Or perhaps your last sentence could read ....where the greatest risk of,population *infection *lies.
You haven mentioned the factor that if the old get infected they likely die.
If the working age population get it , they generally don't.
We know that is true, in that AFAIK, there have been a number of us forummers, who have had it and recovered. And there are a number of us who know of old folk who are very sick or die, and know of a number of working age who have had it and recovered.
It is valid to vaccinate those first who may overwhelm the hospitals, as you say, but I think the latter part of that last sentence is not true.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How do you know 4 out of 5 don't understand the rules , why is that apparent?

There are three important rules to control the virus: Hands, Face and Space, all other rules are derivatives from these.  If you don't understand what you need to do to prevent catching or spreading the virus then you need a poke in the ribs with a pointy stick.
		
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On the 4 out of 5 - I only have that from what I heard this morning on Nick Ferrari LBC (I'll see if I can find a link or other source)

I am not disagreeing with you.  As far as the rules are concerned.  Hands/Face/Space absolutely tells us of the simple behaviours we should adopt to minimise our risk of picking up and transmitting the virus.

But H/F/S is not a guideline/law of the sort defining what is *allowed*, that 4 out of 5 claim they don't understand.

I know what I am *required *to do.  As you say - it isn't complex or difficult to understand.

1) Stay at home other than when a need to leave home is unavoidable as there is no viable alternative to going out
2) If I must go out for whatever *unavoidable *reason -I only do so for as short a time as possible - limited to short exercise or essential shop - and Hands/Face/Space

And that's it.

Do I 100% understand what I am _*allowed *_to do - no I do not.  But I know where to look to find out if needs must.


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## Old Skier (Jan 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the 4 out of 5 - I only have that from what I heard this morning on Nick Ferrari LBC (I'll see if I can find a link or other source)

I am not disagreeing with you.  As far as the rules are concerned.  Hands/Face/Space absolutely tells us of the simple behaviours we should adopt to minimise our risk of picking up and transmitting the virus.

But H/F/S is not a guideline/law of the sort defining what is *allowed*, that 4 out of 5 claim they don't understand.

I know what I am *required *to do.  As you say - it isn't complex or difficult to understand.

1) Stay at home other than when a need to leave home is unavoidable as there is no viable alternative to going out
2) If I must go out for whatever *unavoidable *reason -I only do so for as short a time as possible - limited to short exercise or essential shop - and Hands/Face/Space

And that's it.

Do I 100% understand what I am _*allowed *_to do - no I am not.  But I know where to look to find out if needs must.
		
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Laid out very clearly on the Gov.UK web site which can be accessed via your inter web connection and the NHS COVID track & trace app.


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Or perhaps your last sentence could read ....where the greatest risk of,population *infection *lies.
You haven mentioned the factor that if the old get infected they likely die.
If the working age population get it , they generally don't.
We know that is true, in that AFAIK, there have been a number of us forummers, who have had it and recovered. And there are a number of us who know of old folk who are very sick or die, and know of a number of working age who have had it and recovered.
It is valid to vaccinate those first who may overwhelm the hospitals, as you say, but I think the latter part of that last sentence is not true.
		
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No, I said what I meant. It is not only the harm to the individual, but also the risk of spread and the harm to others. Many of the older care home residents are relatively static and it is more possible to protect them by testing staff and restricting visitors. They likely don't die, they have a greater risk of death, for sure, but they tend not to transmit much either. Younger people working in the NHS or schools may not suffer the same risk of death, but they can be responsible for major outbreaks.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No, I said what I meant. It is not only the harm to the individual, but also the risk of spread and the harm to others. Many of the older care home residents are relatively static and it is more possible to protect them by testing staff and restricting visitors. They likely don't die, they have a greater risk of death, for sure, but they tend not to transmit much either. Younger people working in the NHS or schools may not suffer the same risk of death, but they can be responsible for major outbreaks.
		
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It would be interesting to run the numbers and someone perform some predictions on the effect of immunisation of younger people, you'd need virologists, epidemiologists, behavioural psychologists, and analysts to look at historical movement patterns.  

In my area (Tower Hamlets) just over 5% of the population is 65+, compare that to somewhere on the coast and the numbers would be very different. If you added Gva of those age groups in that area, you could have some really interesting results.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			It would be interesting to run the numbers and someone perform some predictions on the effect of immunisation of younger people, you'd need virologists, epidemiologists, behavioural psychologists, and analysts to look at historical movement patterns.

In my area (Tower Hamlets) just over 5% of the population is 65+, compare that to somewhere on the coast and the numbers would be very different. If you added Gva of those age groups in that area, you could have some really interesting results.
		
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But it's not only care homes, there are a great deal of over sixties who are in great danger of dying if they contract the virus, should they be forced to isolate themselves from the rest of society for an unspecified period of time so that the younger populace can get vaccinated and get back to the pub.

If this is the way our society wish to control Covid then I would be absolutely ashamed of what we had become. To even consider such a policy makes me feel physically sick.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the numbers of positive cases continued to level out , they believe the restrictions are now starting to take affect. I think it’s better to look at the more positive side
		
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Not in my trust. One bed left including all the escalated areas we moved into. Six new admissions from 6.30 until midday into ICU today


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's not only care homes, there are a great deal of over sixties who are in great danger of dieing if they contract the virus, should they be forced to isolate themselves from the rest of society for an unspecified period of time so that the younger populace can get vaccinated and get back to the pub.

If this is the way our society wish to control Covid then I would be absolutely ashamed of what we had become. To even consider such a policy makes me feel physically sick.
		
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The whole populace has been isolating from society for months and are currently for an unspecified period of time.....


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			It would be interesting to run the numbers and someone perform some predictions on the effect of immunisation of younger people, you'd need virologists, epidemiologists, behavioural psychologists, and analysts to look at historical movement patterns. 

In my area (Tower Hamlets) just over 5% of the population is 65+, compare that to somewhere on the coast and the numbers would be very different. If you added Gva of those age groups in that area, you could have some really interesting results.
		
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The NHS, through NICE, routinely reviews new medicines using Quality Adjusted Life Years. In brief, this combines the effect on quality of life with the years of live saved by treatment. So, as an aside, the NHS is institutionally ageist, because treatments offered to older people save fewer years than those offered to younger people, and hence are less good value in the older people. Anyway, applying the same equation to Covid, an argument could emerge that the value of vaccines ra optimised when used in people at the older ages of working life, and who still have dependents, because the effect of illness or death costs a lot more years of life, affects family members and the economy. There was a report in the media about an old dear with advanced dementia getting her vaccine. Now, I may be demented one day, possibly have started already, but the quality of life benefits in vaccinating people with dementia are next to zilch. Sounds harsh, but that is how rationing in the NHS already works. 

I haven't run the numbers, but offer this just to challenge the rather one dimensional idea that people at the highest risk of death is the best way to prioritise. As a separate aside, if that formula was really true, men would get vacc'd before women 5 years younger, and BAME would get vacc'd a similar period before white prople. And BAME men would get vacc'd 10 years younger than white women. So discrimination by age is OK, but not by gender or ethnicity.


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## GB72 (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's not only care homes, there are a great deal of over sixties who are in great danger of dieing if they contract the virus, should they be forced to isolate themselves from the rest of society for an unspecified period of time so that the younger populace can get vaccinated and get back to the pub.

If this is the way our society wish to control Covid then I would be absolutely ashamed of what we had become. To even consider such a policy makes me feel physically sick.
		
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I look at it slightly differently but it is wholly dependent on a vaccine stopping you spreading it as well as catching it (which seems to be at the root of the Indonesian approach). It may be possible to protect those at risk by vaccinating those that may spread the infection to them rather than vaccinating the individual. As I said though, it would be fully dependent on the vaccine stopping you passing in covid as well as stopping you getting I'll with it.


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The NHS, through NICE, routinely reviews new medicines using Quality Adjusted Life Years. In brief, this combines the effect on quality of life with the years of live saved by treatment. So, as an aside, the NHS is institutionally ageist, because treatments offered to older people save fewer years than those offered to younger people, and hence are less good value in the older people. Anyway, applying the same equation to Covid, an argument could emerge that the value of vaccines ra optimised when used in people at the older ages of working life, and who still have dependents, because the effect of illness or death costs a lot more years of life, affects family members and the economy. There was a report in the media about an old dear with advanced dementia getting her vaccine. Now, I may be demented one day, possibly have started already, but the quality of life benefits in vaccinating people with dementia are next to zilch. Sounds harsh, but that is how rationing in the NHS already works.

I haven't run the numbers, but offer this just to challenge the rather one dimensional idea that people at the highest risk of death is the best way to prioritise. As a separate aside, if that formula was really true, men would get vacc'd before women 5 years younger, and BAME would get vacc'd a similar period before white prople. And BAME men would get vacc'd 10 years younger than white women. So discrimination by age is OK, but not by gender or ethnicity.
		
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It would be really interesting to see. I know what you mean about sounding harsh, but it's just another way to investigate data and work out the best approach for the population as a whole. It would be interesting to see what percentage of those in group 1+2 (minus healthcare workers) are still around to receive the vaccine next year, (should it be needed).


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			The whole populace has been isolating from society for months and are currently for an unspecified period of time.....
		
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The whole populace is society.  What's important in a civilised society is allowing every person the chance of living the best life possible for them. Stopping the NHS being overwhelmed is just one of the ways of doing that.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's not only care homes, there are a great deal of over sixties who are in great danger of dying if they contract the virus, should they be forced to isolate themselves from the rest of society for an unspecified period of time so that the younger populace can get vaccinated and get back to the pub.

If this is the way our society wish to control Covid then I would be absolutely ashamed of what we had become. To even consider such a policy makes me feel physically sick.
		
Click to expand...

On the news ( if I heard it right ) Cressida Dick said “ her and her managers had been offered the vaccine but she would prefer the guys and gals on the beat to get it first”
Who made that decision???


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			It would be really interesting to see. I know what you mean about sounding harsh, but it's just another way to investigate data and work out the best approach for the population as a whole. It would be interesting to see what percentage of those in group 1+2 (minus healthcare workers) are still around to receive the vaccine next year, (should it be needed).
		
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Should they not have the same opportunity of living out every hour of their lives, are their hours less worthy due to their age.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			On the news ( if I heard it right ) Cressida Dick said “ her and her managers had been offered the vaccine but she would prefer the guys and gals on the beat to get it first”
Who made that decision???
		
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I believe the police etc currently are being offered vaccines left over on the day or when people don’t turn up or refuse them etc

That does include all the managers etc


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## drdel (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The NHS, through NICE, routinely reviews new medicines using Quality Adjusted Life Years. In brief, this combines the effect on quality of life with the years of live saved by treatment. So, as an aside, the NHS is institutionally ageist, because treatments offered to older people save fewer years than those offered to younger people, and hence are less good value in the older people. Anyway, applying the same equation to Covid, an argument could emerge that the value of vaccines ra optimised when used in people at the older ages of working life, and who still have dependents, because the effect of illness or death costs a lot more years of life, affects family members and the economy. There was a report in the media about an old dear with advanced dementia getting her vaccine. Now, I may be demented one day, possibly have started already, but the quality of life benefits in vaccinating people with dementia are next to zilch. Sounds harsh, but that is how rationing in the NHS already works.

I haven't run the numbers, but offer this just to challenge the rather one dimensional idea that people at the highest risk of death is the best way to prioritise. As a separate aside, if that formula was really true, men would get vacc'd before women 5 years younger, and BAME would get vacc'd a similar period before white prople. And BAME men would get vacc'd 10 years younger than white women. So discrimination by age is OK, but not by gender or ethnicity.
		
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The classical economics dilemma, morality v money: logic v emotion


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## DanFST (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Should they not have the same opportunity of living out every hour of their lives, are their hours less worthy due to their age.
		
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Yes. however callous it sounds their hours are less valuable than a young person. 

Hypothetically: If there is a a 30 year old and an 80 year old involved in a car crash both needing identical life saving surgery. Priority will 99% of the time be given to the 30 year old.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the police etc currently are being offered vaccines left over on the day or when people don’t turn up or refuse them etc

That does include all the managers etc
		
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Right I only just caught what she said.
That would make sense.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the 4 out of 5 - I only have that from what I heard this morning on Nick Ferrari LBC (I'll see if I can find a link or other source)

I am not disagreeing with you.  As far as the rules are concerned.  Hands/Face/Space absolutely tells us of the simple behaviours we should adopt to minimise our risk of picking up and transmitting the virus.

But H/F/S is not a guideline/law of the sort defining what is *allowed*, that 4 out of 5 claim they don't understand.

I know what I am *required *to do.  As you say - it isn't complex or difficult to understand.

1) Stay at home other than when a need to leave home is unavoidable as there is no viable alternative to going out
2) If I must go out for whatever *unavoidable *reason -I only do so for as short a time as possible - limited to short exercise or essential shop - and Hands/Face/Space

And that's it.

Do I 100% understand what I am _*allowed *_to do - no I do not.  But I know where to look to find out if needs must.
		
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You really need to turn off talk radio


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## pauljames87 (Jan 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Right I only just caught what she said.
That would make sense.
		
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The daily racist is moaning that homeless people in Oldham think it was are getting the vaccine before the over 70s

Such an outrage that the poorest should get help above their readers 

Plus it will be left overs no doubt!!


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## triple_bogey (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I could care less what the US are doing, I mentioned the UK and China in my post.

No one has been allowed in to investigate the strongly suspected origin for over a year.

- There is proof that China silenced researchers and journalists when covid was in the wild.
- There is proof that China chooses its case numbers seemingly at random.

If I was the Chinese foreign minister, I’d probably be working on international relations behind closed doors, rather than having a pop at another countries leader for saying the virus “may” have originated there.

You can call it sinophobia or whatever you like, I have nothing against the Chinese people. The Chinese government however are disgusting in my opinion. I’m glad I don’t have to ever go back.
		
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[twitter]



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242436522487492610[/twitter] 




 What happened? Deflection on how both the US/UK massively screwed up maybe?


You obviously didn't realise but news of the new Covid_19 actually made the news on their national TV coverage (CCTV-13) on the 31st Dec. A few hours after Dr Wenliang discussed it on his WeChat group (Dec 30th). If it was a massive coverup, they didn't really do a great job.
Now any intelligence agencies around the world, worth their salt WOULD/SHOULD had picked this up and put a strategy in place. Isn't that what governments are suppose to do, protect its citizens?

If your going to investigate the origins, all countries need to co-operate. As much as you couldn't care less, that's how it works. Not finger pointing to one country.

Where did you visit/work in China? You must had done something really bad for the government to step in and mistreat you. Otherwise it would be the local governing bodies that would had dealt with you. And if that single group of people did do something so drastic for you to despise the country, then higher up officials would step in and arrest them.

The two members here I remember that have family over in China, why have they not left and come back to the UK? If it really is as bad as the media makes out, makes no sense at all in staying.  AKAIK, you can still leave the country but cannot get back in.


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## AliMc (Jan 13, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			They have just said that over 80% of the over 80's have had the jab in Scotland.
So perhaps our surgery just started/finished well, they are a very organised practice.
		
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Sorry don't think that's right is it, they hope to have all over 80's done by 1st week of February, I thought they said only 2% had been done so far but maybe i misheard


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Yes. however callous it sounds their hours are less valuable than a young person.

Hypothetically: If there is a a 30 year old and an 80 year old involved in a car crash both needing identical life saving surgery. Priority will 99% of the time be given to the 30 year old.
		
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But that's a different scenario and only an issue if there are inadequate resources available, this would be the case in an overwhelmed NHS.

We are talking of incarcerating a section of society who are not I'll and in many cases against their will to protect less vunrable younger people. As there is no evidence that vaccinated people cannot pass on the virus the only reason would be to make life easier for the young.  How about we don't bother with the homeless or disabled.

IMO totally inhumane and horribly divisive.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The NHS, through NICE, routinely reviews new medicines using Quality Adjusted Life Years. In brief, this combines the effect on quality of life with the years of live saved by treatment. So, as an aside, the NHS is institutionally ageist, because treatments offered to older people save fewer years than those offered to younger people, and hence are less good value in the older people. Anyway, applying the same equation to Covid, an argument could emerge that the value of vaccines ra optimised when used in people at the older ages of working life, and who still have dependents, because the effect of illness or death costs a lot more years of life, affects family members and the economy. There was a report in the media about an old dear with advanced dementia getting her vaccine. Now, I may be demented one day, possibly have started already, but the quality of life benefits in vaccinating people with dementia are next to zilch. Sounds harsh, but that is how rationing in the NHS already works.

I haven't run the numbers, but offer this just to challenge the rather one dimensional idea that people at the highest risk of death is the best way to prioritise. As a separate aside, if that formula was really true, men would get vacc'd before women 5 years younger, and BAME would get vacc'd a similar period before white prople. And BAME men would get vacc'd 10 years younger than white women. So discrimination by age is OK, but not by gender or ethnicity.
		
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Hmmm, I suppose that's a very good reason why the Queen  and Prince Phillip don't rely on  the NHS?😉


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## triple_bogey (Jan 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I have friends in China 🇨🇳 currently posting on Facebook (when they can, VPN?) about how great things are there now.
		
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Why are they lying for?  To get social points I bet?


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Should they not have the same opportunity of living out every hour of their lives, are their hours less worthy due to their age.
		
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When NICE reviews a new drug, say a cancer medicine, they look at the eligible population, and calculate how many years of life will be saved based on actuarial life tables (basically life expectancy at given ages) and what the quality of life improvement will be. If the cancer is a type that affects elderly people, the the amount of life saved is less than for a drug of equal effectiveness that treats a cancer that younger people get. it is dressed up a bit but basically it discriminates by age as a matter of policy. 

The same policy has been applied to a huge range of medicines over the past 20 years, but strangely not to Covid vaccines, although it is clearly something which is being rationed. 

I am not saying that is right, there are a whole range of problems with it, but that is the way it is. 

Informally, most people intuitively agree with this, believing it is better to save a young life "with a whole life ahead of them" than an older life, although they would bristle at it as a matter of policy, if they knew it was.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			When NICE reviews a new drug, say a cancer medicine, they look at the eligible population, and calculate how many years of life will be saved based on actuarial life tables (basically life expectancy at given ages) and what the quality of life improvement will be. If the cancer is a type that affects elderly people, the the amount of life saved is less than for a drug of equal effectiveness that treats a cancer that younger people get. it is dressed up a bit but basically it discriminates by age as a matter of policy.

The same policy has been applied to a huge range of medicines over the past 20 years, but strangely not to Covid vaccines, although it is clearly something which is being rationed.

I am not saying that is right, there are a whole range of problems with it, but that is the way it is.

Informally, most people intuitively agree with this, believing it is better to save a young life "with a whole life ahead of them" than an older life, although they would bristle at it as a matter of policy, if they knew it was.
		
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I get that but not a policy of incarcerating any section of society to make life easier for another.  I did explain earlier so sorry for repeating, there is a big difference between having to ration healthcare for the unwell and writing off healthy people's lives as if they don't matter.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 13, 2021)

Isn’t that what is currently happening? Incarceration of all of society for the benefit of a few? I’m an advocate of vaccination as it currently is. Not necessarily from a medical standpoint but from a confidence point of view. I see & hear people taking pretty extreme measures to keep virus free. Many seem as though they’ll never venture out again with out the vaccine. This condemns the rest of us to live the same way


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I get that but not a policy of incarcerating any section of society to make life easier for another.  I did explain earlier so sorry for repeating, there is a big difference between having to ration healthcare for the unwell and writing off healthy people's lives as if they don't matter.
		
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Incarceration of society? I think a lot of kids would think they have been incarcerated too. Anyway, the point is that starting in a very one-dimensional way with the oldest may not be the most expeditious and effective way to end this as soon as possible. Some of the people in care homes who have received vaccines will not be any less sincarerated when this is all over.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Incarceration of society? I think a lot of kids would think they have been incarcerated too. Anyway, the point is that starting in a very one-dimensional way with the oldest may not be the most expeditious and effective way to end this as soon as possible. Some of the people in care homes who have received vaccines will not be any less sincarerated when this is all over.
		
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No, but they'll be alive. One of them a very good friend of mine, who, whenever I see the latest photo, has a smile on his face. In his working life he did a lot of good for society, least they can do is treat him as having an equal right to live. 
I'm surprised that you don't accept that, and furthermore that you don't place high value on a policy which may save the NHS from too many seriously ill patients to the point where it collapses.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, but they'll be alive. One of them a very good friend of mine, who, whenever I see the latest photo, has a smile on his face. In his working life he did a lot of good for society, least they can do is treat him as having an equal right to live.
I'm surprised that you don't accept that, and furthermore that you don't place high value on a policy which may save the NHS from too many seriously ill patients to the point where it collapses.
		
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 he does & it would from reading his post. It may be a quicker of achieving the same goal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I get that but not a policy of incarcerating any section of society to make life easier for another.  I did explain earlier so sorry for repeating, there is a big difference between having to ration healthcare for the unwell and writing off healthy people's lives as if they don't matter.
		
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What about the incarceration of 40 million for the benefit of the minority? 

The majority of the UK are in the low risk group but they are all currently being put under restrictions to help the minority


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## Ethan (Jan 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, but they'll be alive. One of them a very good friend of mine, who, whenever I see the latest photo, has a smile on his face. In his working life he did a lot of good for society, least they can do is treat him as having an equal right to live.
I'm surprised that you don't accept that, and furthermore that you don't place high value on a policy which may save the NHS from too many seriously ill patients to the point where it collapses.
		
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I think you have a rather simplistic view of the different and sometimes competing priorities in play. Everybody has a friend affected in one way of another by this. A much higher proportion of hospital admissions are now younger than was the case in early 2020. The NHS will collapse a lot faster if NHS staff denied vaccinations go off sick in droves or due to the pressures.


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## DanFST (Jan 14, 2021)

triple_bogey said:



			*Irrelevant drivel*

Where did you visit/work in China? You must had done something really bad for the government to step in and mistreat you. Otherwise it would be the local governing bodies that would had dealt with you. And if that single group of people did do something so drastic for you to despise the country, then higher up officials would step in and arrest them.

The two members here I remember that have family over in China, why have they not left and come back to the UK? If it really is as bad as the media makes out, makes no sense at all in staying.  AKAIK, you can still leave the country but cannot get back in.
		
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I would Visit Shanghai mainly, loved going to Sharks basketball games. Also Beijing and Guangzhou from time to time. Of course the government didn't mistreat me, I'm wealthy and white. Americans and Europeans have a better quality of life out there, way more jobs available, especially for middle management positions. Pay is much more as westerners generally don't want to live there. However unless they are Chinese, you won't find many people at the top of their field settling there.

I don't want to divert the thread more so. But here's the list of problems that form my opinion.

- I like democracy, don't like abolishing term laws so Xi Jinping is in power for life.
- I like free speech, don't like censorship of peoples views.
- I don't like censorship of information. 
- I don't like incredibly powerful state surveillance.
- I don't like fabrication of Covid death figures. 
- I don't like the huge disparity of wealth.
- I don't like a justice system being government run.
- I don't like internment and "re-education" of minorities.
- I don't like the mafioso like way in which business is run, especially towards foreign business.
- I don't like that almost everyone I met with investing large sums, had links to the CCP.

If you think those things are ok, power to you! Not for me tho.


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## Smiffy (Jan 14, 2021)

Update on daughter is that she hasn't really been badly affected by it. Felt a bit groggy the first couple of days, but feeling much better now.
More good news is that my wife, being a dental nurse, has been able to book her vaccination for next week....


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## bobmac (Jan 14, 2021)

Good news mate, pass on my best wishes please


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## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think you have a rather simplistic view of the different and sometimes competing priorities in play. Everybody has a friend affected in one way of another by this. A much higher proportion of hospital admissions are now younger than was the case in early 2020. The NHS will collapse a lot faster if NHS staff denied vaccinations go off sick in droves or due to the pressures.
		
Click to expand...

What’s the thought process on more young uns being admitted to hospital this time round 🤔 Can anyone out there finger on it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What’s the thought process on more young uns being admitted to hospital this time round 🤔 Can anyone out there finger on it.
		
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Hazarding a guess( being simplistic 🙄),  could it be that it is this age group which partied more etc over Xmas and became involved more in the relaxed rules ove r that period. The increase percentage is in those ages requiring ICU, but if the young ones were out and about more, Xmas style, it would be expected, I suggest. Much more of them being infected.


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What’s the thought process on more young uns being admitted to hospital this time round 🤔 Can anyone out there finger on it.
		
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Combination of things, lots of older patients already infected/dead, greater flouting of regulations by younger, more social mixing in younger age group leads to disproportionate case growth. The virus isn't more pathogenic, just more transmissible.


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## drdel (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Combination of things, lots of older patients already infected/dead, greater flouting of regulations by younger, more social mixing in younger age group leads to disproportionate case growth. The virus isn't more pathogenic, just more transmissible.
		
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Plus wider testing regime.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Laid out very clearly on the Gov.UK web site which can be accessed via your inter web connection and the NHS COVID track & trace app.
		
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Jeez - _I _know that - but 4 out of 5 are reported as claiming they don't (and therefore can give that excuse/reason for their confusion and not adhering fully?).

As I said. If _I_ am asked_ 'do I know *all *that I am *allowed *to do?'_  My answer without looking it up on the gov website is NO.

If I need to know what's allowed I know where to look.  I have no excuse for breaches - mistaken or not.

If I am asked _'do I know what I am *required *to do'_ my answer is an unequivocal YES.   

What I am *required *to do is actually very simple - and in the first instance we should all stick to focussing on what we are _*required *_to do - not what we are _*allowed *_to do.

I am 100% with both you and @SR on this.

Hope that's clear


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			Plus wider testing regime.
		
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Well, testing doesn't lead to admissions, it will lead to greater numbers in the cases reported. Symptoms lead to admissions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You really need to turn off talk radio
		
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..and listen to the BBC instead?...I do both.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

triple_bogey said:



			[twitter]



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1242436522487492610[/twitter] 




 What happened? Deflection on how both the US/UK massively screwed up maybe?


You obviously didn't realise but news of the new Covid_19 actually made the news on their national TV coverage (CCTV-13) on the 31st Dec. A few hours after Dr Wenliang discussed it on his WeChat group (Dec 30th). If it was a massive coverup, they didn't really do a great job.
Now any intelligence agencies around the world, worth their salt WOULD/SHOULD had picked this up and put a strategy in place. Isn't that what governments are suppose to do, protect its citizens?

If your going to investigate the origins, all countries need to co-operate. As much as you couldn't care less, that's how it works. Not finger pointing to one country.

Where did you visit/work in China? You must had done something really bad for the government to step in and mistreat you. Otherwise it would be the local governing bodies that would had dealt with you. And if that single group of people did do something so drastic for you to despise the country, then higher up officials would step in and arrest them.

The two members here I remember that have family over in China, why have they not left and come back to the UK? If it really is as bad as the media makes out, makes no sense at all in staying.  AKAIK, you can still leave the country but cannot get back in.
		
Click to expand...

We can recall the news on China from January 2020 - this from 9th January.  It's quite 'painful' to look back - just over one year ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-51047576


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## SaintHacker (Jan 14, 2021)

So the new Brazilizn variant 'might' be resistant to the vaccines. Worst news ever or not entirely unexpected?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So the new Brazilizn variant 'might' be resistant to the vaccines. Worst news ever or not entirely unexpected?
		
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one thing I was reading was a vaccine that was tested in Brazil (. Hi see led) only had 50.4% success is that due to it being the
“ Brazil “ strain.
Wonder what the other vaccines % ie Oxford etc etc  would be.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What about the incarceration of 40 million for the benefit of the minority?

The majority of the UK are in the low risk group but they are all currently being put under restrictions to help the minority
		
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No, that's not correct.
At the moment lockdown applies to all of us, just imagine the reaction if someone suggested the disabled and unemployed be put at the back of the queue as they are not going to make an impact on the economy.
The majority are being put under restrictions to stop the virus spreading such that the NHS would become overwhelmed and to reduce deaths, vaccination doesn't stop the virus being transmitted but it does stop deaths


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So the new Brazilizn variant 'might' be resistant to the vaccines. Worst news ever or not entirely unexpected?
		
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Might be, maybe, could be. It's another scare phrase by the media. It is going to mutate, we have to accept this. Sit back, let the scientists do their stuff. (there is nothing we can do about it anyway)


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## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So the new Brazilizn variant 'might' be resistant to the vaccines. Worst news ever or not entirely unexpected?
		
Click to expand...

Quote from Sky news.
At Christmas, Brazil was among a number of countries to suspend all flights from or via the UK due to the emergence of a new COVID variant in Britain.

If that is the case why has the UK not yet banned flights from Brazil. Am not saying it in a tit for tat sense But why haven’t they


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Quote from Sky news.
At Christmas, Brazil was among a number of countries to suspend all flights from or via the UK due to the emergence of a new COVID variant in Britain.

If that is the case why has the UK not yet banned flights from Brazil. Am not saying it in a tit for tat sense But why haven’t they
		
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When asked this question yesterday the Health Secretary answered that there was no current need to as the number of individuals arriving in the UK from Brazil is currently very low.  That is what I am sure that I heard him say. I make no comment.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No, that's not correct.
At the moment lockdown applies to all of us, just imagine the reaction if someone suggested the disabled and unemployed be put at the back of the queue as they are not going to make an impact on the economy.
The majority are being put under restrictions to stop the virus spreading such that the NHS would become overwhelmed and to reduce deaths, vaccination doesn't stop the virus being transmitted but it does stop deaths
		
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I know that 

The point was currently yes we are all under restrictions but we are “all” under restrictions to protect the vunerable amongst us - where as some have the belief that the vunerable should be placed under extreme restrictions to allow everyone else to move on in life and to keep the country going 

It is a very simplistic view of course and whilst I can see the theory it’s not something I agree with


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## DanFST (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Vaccination doesn't stop the virus being transmitted but it does stop deaths
		
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That's interesting, what research have you done? Because I think the answer scientists are saying at the moment is "we just don't know". Oxford and Pfizer both think their jabs will reduce transmission, especially in asymptomatic cases. But haven't done the research.


Or are you talking twaddle?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			That's interesting, what research have you done? Because I think the answer scientists are saying at the moment is "we just don't know". Oxford and Pfizer both think their jabs will reduce transmission, especially in asymptomatic cases. But haven't done the research.


Or are you talking twaddle?
		
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Do you have to be so rude just because someone has a different viewpoint.

When the experts say it won't allow transmission I will accept it doesn't, until then I will take the view it will.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have to be so rude just because someone has a different viewpoint.

When the experts say it won't allow transmission I will accept it doesn't, until then I will take the view it will.
		
Click to expand...

I've been asking myself this same question.  But coincidentally I got a letter this morning from NHS offering me flu vaccination. 

That made me think that if the flu vaccination didn't both prevent influenza and eliminate or very significantly reduce transmission of the virus from someone infected but vaccinated - then flu would be pandemic across the community as many of us (self included) have never been vaccinated against flu and there would be lots of folks out there vaccinated but still transmitting. And it isn't pandemic...or at least it isn't a lot more prevalent than it is.

Of course I get that the Covid-19 coronavirus isn't the flu virus but is the underlying science of the vaccination in respect of impact on onward transmission pretty much the same?  I'm sure this will have been asked and answered somewhere on here but if I may ask again as the answer will be know and simple.


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

The answer to whether vaccination reduces transmission is not known. It is quite hard to study properly because you can't enrol everybody's family and friends into studies. I think the current viewpoint is that since vaccination reduces the propagation of the virus, it would seem odd if that did not result in a lower risk of onward transmission. Whether that lower risk is a zero or non-zero risk of transmission is the question.


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Combination of things, lots of older patients already infected/dead, greater flouting of regulations by younger, more social mixing in younger age group leads to disproportionate case growth. The virus isn't more pathogenic, just more transmissible.
		
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And possibly more younger people working this time around.


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know that

The point was currently yes we are all under restrictions but we are “all” under restrictions to protect the vunerable amongst us - where as some have the belief that the vunerable should be placed under extreme restrictions to allow everyone else to move on in life and to keep the country going

It is a very simplistic view of course and whilst I can see the theory it’s not something I agree with
		
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I thought it was to protect the NHS


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I've been asking myself this same question.  But coincidentally I got a letter this morning from NHS offering me flu vaccination.

That made me think that if the flu vaccination didn't both prevent influenza and eliminate or very significantly reduce transmission of the virus from someone infected but vaccinated - then flu would be pandemic across the community as many of us (self included) have never been vaccinated against flu and there would be lots of folks out there vaccinated but still transmitting. And it isn't pandemic...or at least it isn't a lot more prevalent than it is.

Of course I get that the Covid-19 coronavirus isn't the flu virus but is the underlying science of the vaccination in respect of impact on onward transmission pretty much the same?  I'm sure this will have been asked and answered somewhere on here but if I may ask again as the answer will be know and simple.
		
Click to expand...

As I understand it, the flu virus is not epidemic because there is herd immunity, I.e. enough people have the antibodies so that when the flu virus tries to infect them...
 It doesn't. It doesn't get a grip, so to speak.
That is the hope for Covid when enough are vaccinated. The virus dies when it keeps getting rejected and cannot flourish.That is why we are exhorted to all have the vaccine. Indeed, why we are asked to not have contact with each other, SD and all that.
So, in that sense, being vaccinated helps stop transmission . However, vaccinated people can still touch infected objects, then other objects, or shake your hand etc, and pass it on by touch.
But if they are not an infected person, them breathing over you isn't going to spread it.
Ethan may give a verdict on that😀


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 14, 2021)

I think the message since this pandemic has started has been missed or confused as times gone on.

We locked down because everyone was at risk, all of society needed protecting, as the virus took hold it became apparent some were more vulnerable than others and those least vulnerable became a bit complacent imo.

It was at this time the message/marketing needed to change, it needed to focus on the responsibility the strongest in society had towards the weakest.

Yes, fewer Children, Teenagers, those in the 20’s/30’s/40’s have died, but does anyone want to risk their child/wife/husband/parent etc being one of the few that is sacrificed to partly unlock the Country so the strongest can get on with their life.

To recover as a Nation, we must stick together and fight as a Nation.

What’s the old cliche? “A chain is only as strong as its weakest link”


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## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I think the message since this pandemic has started has been missed or confused as times gone on.

We locked down because everyone was at risk, all of society needed protecting, as the virus took hold it became apparent some were more vulnerable than others and those least vulnerable became a bit complacent imo.

*It was at this time the message/marketing needed to change, it needed to focus on the responsibility the strongest in society had towards the weakest.*

Yes, fewer Children, Teenagers, those in the 20’s/30’s/40’s have died, but does anyone want to risk their child/wife/husband/parent etc being one of the few that is sacrificed to partly unlock the Country so the strongest can get on with their life.

To recover as a Nation, we must stick together and fight as a Nation.

What’s the old cliche? “A chain is only as strong as its weakest link”
		
Click to expand...

Deffo this, and for me the message did change for the worse. Can you remember when Boris was ridiculed when he was sending out mixed messages. That for me was a mixed message turning point of which am not sure we have ever recovered. That and people driving 200 miles to test there eyesight.


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## SteveJay (Jan 14, 2021)

Regarding the age profile of hospitalisations currently, Sir Patrick Valance on Peston last night said there is no evidence that younger people are being hospitalised more than older people now. He said the demographics were the same, its just that, as total hospitalisations have increased, there are more younger people are being admitted , but the percentage is not much different to what it has been throughout the pandemic. 

I assume ongoing vaccinations will potentially change that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The answer to whether vaccination reduces transmission is not known. It is quite hard to study properly because you can't enrol everybody's family and friends into studies. I think the current viewpoint is that since vaccination reduces the propagation of the virus, it would seem odd if that did not result in a lower risk of onward transmission. Whether that lower risk is a zero or non-zero risk of transmission is the question.
		
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I guess a conclusion from this I can draw is that we are all very likely to be carrying '_a_' flu virus - basically all the time.  That we don't see mass illness is that many are vaccinated from developing illness, and most of those not vaccinated have built up an immunity against '_it_'.

However I am thinking (and as SLaS suggests) then that illness with influenza numbers can escalate in those years when the strain in the country is significantly different and the immunity of such as I (not vaccinated) isn't so good - and so I could become ill?


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I guess a conclusion from this I can draw is that we are all very likely to be carrying '_a_' flu virus - basically all the time.  That we don't see mass illness is that many are vaccinated from developing illness, and most of those not vaccinated have built up an immunity against '_it_'.

However I am thinking (and as SLaS suggests) then that illness with influenza numbers can escalate in those years when the strain in the country is significantly different and the immunity of such as I (not vaccinated) isn't so good - and so I could become ill?
		
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We are all quite likely to be exposed to flu, but either through innate resistance due to youth, or a cumulative body of immunity acquired over years, most of us have enough weapons to fend it off. In years when a new more pathogenic variant emerges, that can change, though. Flu tends to be well resisted by the young, so whilst they can still be vectors, they tend not to get it.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 14, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Regarding the age profile of hospitalisations currently, Sir Patrick Valance on Peston last night said there is no evidence that younger people are being hospitalised more than older people now. He said the demographics were the same, its just that, as total hospitalisations have increased, there are more younger people are being admitted , but the percentage is not much different to what it has been throughout the pandemic.

I assume ongoing vaccinations will potentially change that.
		
Click to expand...

But it's a great headline to use for media to keep the clicks coming in. 

BREKAING NEWS: MORE YOUNG PEOPLE THAN EVER IN HOSPITAL DUE TO COVID. 

They're not wrong, but they're misleading.


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## drdel (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, testing doesn't lead to admissions, it will lead to greater numbers in the cases reported. Symptoms lead to admissions.
		
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Unless the propensity reduces the more people detected and shown positive the more will be found needing treatment.


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Regarding the age profile of hospitalisations currently, Sir Patrick Valance on Peston last night said there is no evidence that younger people are being hospitalised more than older people now. He said the demographics were the same, its just that, as total hospitalisations have increased, there are more younger people are being admitted , but the percentage is not much different to what it has been throughout the pandemic.

I assume ongoing vaccinations will potentially change that.
		
Click to expand...

I just took a look at admission data. Young people are not being admitted more than older people, that was never suggested, but there seems to have been a small but significant shift in the numbers.

The most recent data set is for 6 Jan 2021. On that date, 472 patients aged 18-64 were admitted, out of a total number of 1179. One can reasonably assume the vast majority of the remainder are 65 or more. 18-64 are therefore 40% of admissions. So maybe that is an outlier. Let's try the first 5 days of January. 1822/4431, 41.1%

I then chose a couple of random dates back at the first peak 1-5 April 2020 and 1-5 May 20.

1-5 April: 711/2173 = 32.7%

1-5 May 1st, 443/1301 = 34.0%

There has been a clinical suspicion that a greater proportion of patients are now in the non-elderly group. I think that is an accurate observation.

2 days ago, Simon Stevens, head of the NHS pointed out that a quarter of patients were under 55. Was he remarking on that because it had not changed over the year?. I doubt it. It would be a little surprising if the age-mix had not changed, given the carnage caused in that older population so far.


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			Unless the propensity reduces the more people detected and shown positive the more will be found needing treatment.
		
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People get admitted to hospital with symptoms and clinical need, not positive tests.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 14, 2021)

My wife's friend is a copper 

Her mum just got police to her house reports of her mixing with kids from our area ..

I'e the coppers kids .. but it's a child under 1 so a support bubble is formed 

What's worse is the details given to police are so precise that it's a neighbour or friend and that road is close everyone knows Ur name


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## DRW (Jan 14, 2021)

NHS data is here in spreadsheet form(I know I posted this link before) :-

Statistics » COVID-19 Hospital Activity (england.nhs.uk)

Some slightly different data here to do with hospitalisations, worth looking at if you like to look at data and risk factors in your decision making  :-

https://www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Attachments/Download/326bbfc2-d851-eb11-912d-00505601089b

 We males have a harder life than the female of the species from the chart below

I know of three people who have hit the ICU, one still not out of hospital yet.  Be careful people, given this forum tends to have people from the higher risk of the spectrum being critically ill(old).



Also being overweight isn't good


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

Age is the largest factor, but not the only one. One way of dealing with other factors is to calculate a Covid Age. This effectively adds or subtracts age according to certain factors to give you an age that best reflects your risk. 

Being male, BAME, obese, diabetic, have chronic kidney disease etc all adds years. 

Have a go if you dare.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Age is the largest factor, but not the only one. One way of dealing with other factors is to calculate a Covid Age. This effectively adds or subtracts age according to certain factors to give you an age that best reflects your risk.

Being male, BAME, obese, diabetic, have chronic kidney disease etc all adds years.

Have a go if you dare.

Click to expand...

It's easy to see how a person's general health, fitness and age will affect their chance of recovering from certain serious illnesses. We have been informed that people from BAME backgrounds have a higher chance of Covid related death than a similar Caucasion person, however I've not seen anyone give a Medical explanation to why this should be.  Surely someone in the Medical/Scientific world would have found a valid reason by now so that some form of medical help could be looked into.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I get that but not a policy of incarcerating any section of society to make life easier for another.  I did explain earlier so sorry for repeating, there is a big difference between having to ration healthcare for the unwell and writing off healthy people's lives as if they don't matter.
		
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It’s a policy that may come fruition if the vaccine doesn’t prevent transmission.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			It’s a policy that may come fruition if the vaccine doesn’t prevent transmission. 
	View attachment 34482

Click to expand...

But that's different. That's looking at a scenario where the vaccines don't reduce infections, it's not what we were previously discussing. The point under discussion was who should be prioritised for vaccination at the present time.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			It’s a policy that may come fruition if the vaccine doesn’t prevent transmission. 
	View attachment 34482

Click to expand...

But what she appears to be  suggesting is that those in the priority groups will be vaccinated whilst the less vulnerable will just have to take their chance with the virus.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			But that's different. That's looking at a scenario where the vaccines don't reduce infections, it's not what we were previously discussing. The point under discussion was who should be prioritised for vaccination at the present time.
		
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Maybe I should of looked back wouldn’t of thought that would be up for a discussion as it should be obvious who should be vaccinated first.


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## USER1999 (Jan 14, 2021)

Went in to work today for a few hours, as I had some stuff to do that I can't do from home. Traffic was OK ish going in, but flipping heck it was gridlock coming home. So much for lock down.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife's friend is a copper

Her mum just got police to her house reports of her mixing with kids from our area ..

I'e the coppers kids .. but it's a child under 1 so a support bubble is formed

What's worse is the details given to police are so precise that it's a neighbour or friend and that road is close everyone knows Ur name
		
Click to expand...

When the country went into the first lockdown, the last night of freedom my daughter was down Nottingham with her boyfriend. Both coppers. Apparently all the pubs had a sale on to get rid of stock.Nigh on everyone was bladdered I was informed. Anyway daughter put a few photos of her on Facebook.
The following Monday she was called into the office, someone had reported them both for being out on the lash. Her (ex Hubby).
It was pointed out that the night they were out 3/4 of the country was out because they were allowed to be out.


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## DanFST (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have to be so rude just because someone has a different viewpoint.

When the experts say it won't allow transmission I will accept it doesn't, until then I will take the view it will.
		
Click to expand...

Where have I been rude? I just realise there are different ways to look at it. Indonesia and China have done differently in there vaccination program. Is it right, who knows yet? But to say it makes you sick and that young people are being selfish is just bang out of order.

I was infected with covid in March. I have been locked up at home alone for the best part of a year. If current thinking like yours continues, I won't have a normal life until herd immunity is achieved through vaccines going by those most likely to die to youngest. What's that 2 years of my life most likely, for something that won't kill me? Not to mention I'll be repaying this in taxes for 50+ years

I live in an area with under 5% over 65's. In my day to day I come across a handful. Thankfully my sector isn't too damaged by working from home. But there is 100's of shops and eateries in CW, 99% of which are shut. Thousands unemployed, most likely on dodgy contracts, struggling. That's fine, if there is no other alternative. But for you to kick off when there might be even the suggestion of a better alternative and a change of thinking. And then to say it's young people being selfish (as you have done most of lockdown - old people don't break the rules apparently) Screams of irony.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 14, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55661062

heartbreaking


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## DanFST (Jan 14, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			But what she appears to be  suggesting is that those in the priority groups will be vaccinated whilst the less vulnerable will just have to take their chance with the virus.
		
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The big political issue with this is young people ask.

If we are taking the chance now, why have we been forced to be locked down for a year?


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's easy to see how a person's general health, fitness and age will affect their chance of recovering from certain serious illnesses. We have been informed that people from BAME backgrounds have a higher chance of Covid related death than a similar Caucasion person, however I've not seen anyone give a Medical explanation to why this should be.  Surely someone in the Medical/Scientific world would have found a valid reason by now so that some form of medical help could be looked into.
		
Click to expand...

I think the prevailing opinion is that it is probably linked to Vitamin D deficiency which is more common in BAME people, because melanin in skin impairs Vitamin D synthesis. Vitamin D is important in immune and inflammatory responses. (I have been taking a Vitamin D supplement for that reason during Covid). That is made worse by higher levels of diabetes and cardiovascular risk which are partly linked to genetics and BAME people also experience greater of social deprivation. So multifactorial causes.


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## DRW (Jan 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			The big political issue with this is young people ask.

If we are taking the chance now, why have we been forced to be locked down for a year?
		
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Been waiting for this question to be asked and hit the mainstream. As been looking at it from my childrens point of view since the beginning.

Sure that's  one of the reasons why they are talking about offering vaccines to anyone by autumn, to try to stem that, but still completely understandable line of questioning.

Lets not forgot people are dying from other causes as covid has been put as No 1...collateral damage.


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## DRW (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Age is the largest factor, but not the only one. One way of dealing with other factors is to calculate a Covid Age. This effectively adds or subtracts age according to certain factors to give you an age that best reflects your risk.

Being male, BAME, obese, diabetic, have chronic kidney disease etc all adds years.

Have a go if you dare.

Click to expand...

Not seen that before, cheers. 

For me same as my age, but not true for other loved ones.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			But it's a great headline to use for media to keep the clicks coming in.

BREKAING NEWS: MORE YOUNG PEOPLE THAN EVER IN HOSPITAL DUE TO COVID.

They're not wrong, but they're misleading.
		
Click to expand...

Because the statement is true, I might see it more as being disingenuous rather than misleading, though I'm thinking the point should still be made - that the young get hospitalised with Covid-19 as well. Also noting that the number hospitalised is surely independent of the total number of us being tested.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Age is the largest factor, but not the only one. One way of dealing with other factors is to calculate a Covid Age. This effectively adds or subtracts age according to certain factors to give you an age that best reflects your risk.

Being male, BAME, obese, diabetic, have chronic kidney disease etc all adds years.

Have a go if you dare.

Click to expand...

Weight as a risk factor is one reason why, since start of August, I've got my BMI down from 30 to 25.7.  I'm still in the overweight BMI band - but 30 had me verging into the Obese 
And my waist measurement has come down so that's also good...Keeping going until I am in the Healthy band - 12st 10lbs my current target weight, 6ibs to go.

Every risk mitigation I can do I'll look to have a go at.  I suppose being a Scot in Surrey makes me ethnic minority of a sort   But, joking apart, as I don't drink or smoke that mitigates one of the main life risk factors associated with being of the Scottish ethnic minority...


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Weight as a risk factor is one reason why, since start of August, I've got my BMI down from 30 to 25.7.  I'm still in the overweight BMI band - but 30 had me verging into the Obese 
And my waist measurement has come down so that's also good...Keeping going until I am in the Healthy band - 12st 10lbs my current target weight, 6ibs to go.

Every risk mitigation I can do I'll look to have a go at.  I suppose being a Scot in Surrey makes me ethnic minority of a sort   But, joking apart, as I don't drink that mitigates one of the main life risk factors associated with being of the Scottish ethnic minority...

Click to expand...

Well done on the weight loss. That is a fair chunk. I take some Vitamin D, cheap as chips on the internet. If you are somewhere the sun doesn't shine much, might be worth considering.


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## larmen (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Age is the largest factor, but not the only one. One way of dealing with other factors is to calculate a Covid Age. This effectively adds or subtracts age according to certain factors to give you an age that best reflects your risk.

Being male, BAME, obese, diabetic, have chronic kidney disease etc all adds years.

Have a go if you dare.

Click to expand...

I am getting 14 added years, but I could find my specific conditions in that list and worked of generic heart disease. Is there a similar calculator that lets me retire early? ;-)


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the statement is true, I might see it more as being disingenuous rather than misleading, though I'm thinking the point should still be made - that the young get hospitalised with Covid-19 as well. Also noting that the number hospitalised is surely independent of the total number of us being tested.
		
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I agree with you. If english had been my native language, disingenuous might've been my word of choice as well.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Where have I been rude? I just realise there are different ways to look at it. Indonesia and China have done differently in there vaccination program. Is it right, who knows yet? But to say it makes you sick and that young people are being selfish is just bang out of order.

I was infected with covid in March. I have been locked up at home alone for the best part of a year. If current thinking like yours continues, I won't have a normal life until herd immunity is achieved through vaccines going by those most likely to die to youngest. What's that 2 years of my life most likely, for something that won't kill me? Not to mention I'll be repaying this in taxes for 50+ years

I live in an area with under 5% over 65's. In my day to day I come across a handful. Thankfully my sector isn't too damaged by working from home. But there is 100's of shops and eateries in CW, 99% of which are shut. Thousands unemployed, most likely on dodgy contracts, struggling. That's fine, if there is no other alternative. But for you to kick off when there might be even the suggestion of a better alternative and a change of thinking. And then to say it's young people being selfish (as you have done most of lockdown - old people don't break the rules apparently) Screams of irony.
		
Click to expand...

Do you bother to read my posts.

Suggesting someone who has a different opinion is talking twaddle is rude.

I didn't say young people are being selfish or they make me sick. I said the thought of certain sectors of the populace being locked away so others can have a more comfortable time makes me feel physically sick. Can you see the difference?

I sympathise with your personal situation but most of us have been adversely affected by the virus,I went to the funeral of the best friend I ever had last week but we're in it together, that's always been the case in a civilised society.

Regarding a better alternative, I don't believe it is a better alternative and I've explained why I have come to that conclusion. Again you say I'm blaming young people, I'm not and I can't understand why you see that, I think you have a misapprehension that I'm pointing a finger but it seems to me that's what you are doing.  I have children and grandchildren who I care very much about so please don't use this agest arguement, it just creates nothing but division.


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## Old Skier (Jan 14, 2021)

Data delayed today on the Gov website, looks like a big number coming up.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think the prevailing opinion is that it is probably linked to Vitamin D deficiency which is more common in BAME people, because melanin in skin impairs Vitamin D synthesis. Vitamin D is important in immune and inflammatory responses. (I have been taking a Vitamin D supplement for that reason during Covid). That is made worse by higher levels of diabetes and cardiovascular risk which are partly linked to genetics and BAME people also experience greater of social deprivation. So multifactorial causes.
		
Click to expand...

Do you know if there's a programme to encourage BAME people to increase vitamin D


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you know if there's a programme to encourage BAME people to increase vitamin D
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a national programme but it is pretty common knowledge amongst doctors, so I expect there is plenty of advice given to that effect.


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## DanFST (Jan 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you bother to read my posts.

Suggesting someone who has a different opinion is talking twaddle is rude.

I didn't say young people are being selfish or they make me sick. I said the thought of certain sectors of the populace being locked away so others can have a more comfortable time makes me feel physically sick. Can you see the difference?

I sympathise with your personal situation but most of us have been adversely affected by the virus,I went to the funeral of the best friend I ever had last week but we're in it together, that's always been the case in a civilised society.

Regarding a better alternative, I don't believe it is a better alternative and I've explained why I have come to that conclusion. Again you say I'm blaming young people, I'm not and I can't understand why you see that, I think you have a misapprehension that I'm pointing a finger but it seems to me that's what you are doing.  I have children and grandchildren who I care very much about so please don't use this agest arguement, it just creates nothing but division.
		
Click to expand...


"Vaccination doesn't stop the virus being transmitted but it does stop deaths" - that's not an opinion, that's you presenting a statement as fact - twaddle. Unless you know more than researchers. Pfizer and Oxford seem to thing theirs will severely reduce transmission, especially in asymptomatic cases, but haven't done the research to validate that theory.

So let's take your statement as fact for a second. The government have hinted that if you are in fact correct, us young people will just have to take our chance in a couple months. So why have young people had to throw away a year+ of our lives, losing careers, ruining the economy further and facing a mental health crisis? (economically if we'd managed to contain it, it would have been the ideal situation. But we didn't and we won't) How is that us all being in it together?

And lets say that the virus does stop transmission 100%. Surely you must be able to see there is a rational to getting the economic movers back into work first? I don't know if it would be the right decision, I don't know the data. But it's not worth dismissing instantly.

Also: Incredibly sorry about your friend. I didn't get to go to the funeral of mine and it tore me up in lockdown 1. But reading it, even if you did get to go, it's just as awful with the rules. It's a terrible situation.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			"Vaccination doesn't stop the virus being transmitted but it does stop deaths" - that's not an opinion, that's you presenting a statement as fact - twaddle. Unless you know more than researchers. Pfizer and Oxford seem to thing theirs will severely reduce transmission, especially in asymptomatic cases, but haven't done the research to validate that theory.

So let's take your statement as fact for a second. The government have hinted that if you are in fact correct, us young people will just have to take our chance in a couple months. So why have young people had to throw away a year+ of our lives, losing careers, ruining the economy further and facing a mental health crisis? (economically if we'd managed to contain it, it would have been the ideal situation. But we didn't and we won't) How is that us all being in it together?

And lets say that the virus does stop transmission 100%. Surely you must be able to see there is a rational to getting the economic movers back into work first? I don't know if it would be the right decision, I don't know the data. But it's not worth dismissing instantly.

Also: Incredibly sorry about your friend. I didn't get to go to the funeral of mine and it tore me up in lockdown 1. But reading it, even if you did get to go, it's just as awful with the rules. It's a terrible situation.
		
Click to expand...

By using 'Twaddle' instead of saying you don't agree does nothing for your argument, it just makes you seem rude which I'm sure you're not.

Until there is proof that the vaccination stops the transmission of the virus I will assume it doesn't, surely that's the only safe policy.

The current policy of what groups receive the vaccination first have been designed to reduce deaths and protect the NHS from being overwhelmed. Do you really disagree with that process?

Thank you for your comments on my Friend.  The loss people are experiencing is horrible and anything we can do to reduce it at all just must be worthwhile.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well done on the weight loss. That is a fair chunk. I take some Vitamin D, cheap as chips on the internet. If you are somewhere the sun doesn't shine much, might be worth considering.
		
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Well...it should shine in Sunny Surrey - however.


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## upsidedown (Jan 14, 2021)

On a positive note, seeing two of our senior lady members getting their jab today on the local news


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## triple_bogey (Jan 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I would Visit Shanghai mainly, loved going to Sharks basketball games. Also Beijing and Guangzhou from time to time. Of course the government didn't mistreat me, I'm wealthy and white. Americans and Europeans have a better quality of life out there, way more jobs available, especially for middle management positions. Pay is much more as westerners generally don't want to live there. However unless they are Chinese, you won't find many people at the top of their field settling there.

I don't want to divert the thread more so. But here's the list of problems that form my opinion.

- I like democracy, don't like abolishing term laws so Xi Jinping is in power for life.
- I like free speech, don't like censorship of peoples views.
- I don't like censorship of information.
- I don't like incredibly powerful state surveillance.
- I don't like fabrication of Covid death figures.
- I don't like the huge disparity of wealth.
- I don't like a justice system being government run.
- I don't like internment and "re-education" of minorities.
- I don't like the mafioso like way in which business is run, especially towards foreign business.
- I don't like that almost everyone I met with investing large sums, had links to the CCP.

If you think those things are ok, power to you! Not for me tho.
		
Click to expand...




DanFST said:



			I don't really care for the excuses etc.

However I get peeved when a country who has done nothing but *hamper origin tracing and cooperated with no one*, accuses us of doing it.
		
Click to expand...

But the irrelevant drivel disproves what you stated. China has been co-operating though. Like I mentioned before, WHO experts arrive(d) TODAY! Unless mis-information is allowed here. 

For a moment, regarding most of you're points, I actually believed you were describing the US for a second there...
You believe the harvesting of organs yet don't believe their Covid death toll. No countries numbers are 100% accurate 

Ooops!



You have just basically admitted you were treated like a king whilst you're stay there. Where was this authoritarian dystopian society you described where the people have no human rights? 
You will be treated exactly the same as the locals regardless of skin color. You break the law, white privilege will not save you. 

I hope you have deleted you're Facebook and Twitter. Didn't they just censor/ban the most powerful man on the planet? 

But its OK when we do it.
https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/facial-recognition/live-facial-recognition/


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## SteveJay (Jan 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			"So why have young people had to throw away a year+ of our lives, losing careers, ruining the economy further and facing a mental health crisis?
		
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With all due respect it isn't just young people that have had to endure that is it? We have all had to "throw a year + of our lives away". For some they have fewer years left so I don't think the young had a monopoly on theses hardships, if indeed that was what you were implying.


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## DanFST (Jan 14, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			With all due respect it isn't just young people that have had to endure that is it? We have all had to "throw a year + of our lives away". For some they have fewer years left so I don't think the young had a monopoly on theses hardships, if indeed that was what you were implying.
		
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Oh not at all, This situation has been terrible for all. But as a young-ish person. I can say I'd much rather be living on my pension right now. As opposed to being made redundant, uncertainty of furlough or starting a career and entering this environment.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 14, 2021)

So the amount of positive cases stays on the same flattened level but in South and South East those Tier 4 restrictions that were put in place have seen a drop in those areas


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Age is the largest factor, but not the only one. One way of dealing with other factors is to calculate a Covid Age. This effectively adds or subtracts age according to certain factors to give you an age that best reflects your risk.

Being male, BAME, obese, diabetic, have chronic kidney disease etc all adds years.

Have a go if you dare.

Click to expand...

To add a very small degree of context from the shop floor, we have a female (19 and Asian descent with no other co-morbidities) and several early 20 white males again no co-morbidities and all are not doing well at all. In the first wave it certainly seemed to hit BAME and the obese hardest but this time, possibly because of the new variant it does seem to have hit a far wider and younger demographic. It can't all be down to the "I'll be alright" attitude a lot of the younger generation seemed to show when restrictions were lifted and in the run-up to Christmas. 

I've already seen the link above and not good reading for myself or my wife (who is still working in a school now up to 153 "key worker" kids!) so all we can do is go to work, take precautions (masks, regular washing and sanitising hands) and keeping away from people where possible, limit supermarket trips and stay home. It is a bit of an eye opener


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			To add a very small degree of context from the shop floor, we have a female (19 and Asian descent with no other co-morbidities) and several early 20 white males again no co-morbidities and all are not doing well at all. In the first wave it certainly seemed to hit BAME and the obese hardest but this time, possibly because of the new variant it does seem to have hit a far wider and younger demographic. It can't all be down to the "I'll be alright" attitude a lot of the younger generation seemed to show when restrictions were lifted and in the run-up to Christmas.

I've already seen the link above and not good reading for myself or my wife (who is still working in a school now up to 153 "key worker" kids!) so all we can do is go to work, take precautions (masks, regular washing and sanitising hands) and keeping away from people where possible, limit supermarket trips and stay home. It is a bit of an eye opener
		
Click to expand...

The new variants have the same viral genome inside but the spike protein appears to have greater affinity for the ACE2 receptor, hence transmits more readily because more people exposed get it stuck in them, so to speak. There have been quite young people affected from the start, but thankfully not very many.

Keep you nose (and hands) clean. You've had the first shot, haven't you?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The new variants have the same virus inside but the spike protein appears to have greater affinity for the ACE2 receptor, hence transmits more daily because more people exposed get it stuck in them, so to speak. There have been quite young people affected from the start, but thankfully not very many.

Keep you nose (and hands) clean. You've had the first shot, haven't you?
		
Click to expand...

Yep. Stabbed last Wednesday (arm sore until Friday) so all good. Doing lateral flow testing as well. Fortunately the admin staff have been pulled back to a remote office although a necessity to still go in and out of the hot zones. Go in, do what's needed asap, back out and wash hands and sanitise asap, certainly before touching food or drink. As manager of the team I feel it's my duty to take the largest responsibility of going "hot" especially as the ladies all have some degree of co-morbidity but even I am scaling it back as far as possible


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## GB72 (Jan 15, 2021)

From the looks of the Supreme Court Ruling the insurance companies are going to have to pay out on the business interruption policies which they claimed did not cover interruption of business. Insurance industry is going to take a big hit but that could keep hundreds of small businesses going for a bit longer.


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## Beezerk (Jan 15, 2021)

One of my colleagues tested positive yesterday,  he was convinced it was just a cold, got a test and boom. Says he woke up this morning covered in sweat and shivering, luckily he's young and fit so should shake it off quite easily. 
He'd been working on an install in the same Wellingborough factory for around 3 weeks so I guess it opened it up for him to be more at risk.


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2021)

It becomes real when folk you know get it... been fairly light in this rural corner of Monmouthshire. However, a couple of NHS folk live in the village and work at Royal Gwent and the new hospital at Cwmbran.  They've said it is like a battle zone in both and they are getting really angry about the internet-experts spouting their stuff.

Welsh FM spoke today.  In summary, "No changes still the stats improve. Will try for changes at next review which is 29th January."     - I can live with that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			It becomes real when folk you know get it... been fairly light in this rural corner of Monmouthshire. However, a couple of NHS folk live in the village and work at Royal Gwent and the new hospital at Cwmbran.  They've said it is like a battle zone in both and they are getting really angry about the internet-experts spouting their stuff.

Welsh FM spoke today.  In summary, "No changes *still *the stats improve. Will try for changes at next review which is 29th January."     - I can live with that.
		
Click to expand...

Just checking not picking - assume a minor spello here - did you mean 'until'?


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## IanM (Jan 15, 2021)

oooops...FAT fingers!  Funny how that impacts the meaning!    Indeed, I meant 'till they improve!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 15, 2021)

IanM said:



			It becomes real when folk you know get it... been fairly light in this rural corner of Monmouthshire. However, a couple of NHS folk live in the village and work at Royal Gwent and the new hospital at Cwmbran.  They've said it is like a battle zone in both and they are getting really angry about the internet-experts spouting their stuff.

Welsh FM spoke today.  In summary, "No changes still the stats improve. Will try for changes at next review which is 29th January."     - I can live with that.
		
Click to expand...

Seen my next door neighbours today.
Havnt seen them since Xmas eve.
Both had COVID she looks shocking him so so.
Said “ woke up with a headache Xmas day and been in bed for 14 days”
Both in their 70 s both their son an daughter had it at the same time.
So long recovery by the look of them today.
Just glad they came through it.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 15, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Oh not at all, This situation has been terrible for all. But as a young-ish person. I can say I'd much rather be living on my pension right now. As opposed to being made redundant, uncertainty of furlough or starting a career and entering this environment.
		
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the problem is Dan that a lot of people that are living on there pension are now in the category of “ were living on there pension”. The vast majority of those that have died being the elderly. 
Re the Elderly, they have been through many years of what you mention re being made redundant, uncertain of starting careers etc. A lot of people of all ages are struggling and losing out. How folks recover from this. Ask me this time next year.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 15, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Seen my next door neighbours today.
Havnt seen them since Xmas eve.
Both had COVID she looks shocking him so so.
Said “ woke up with a headache Xmas day and been in bed for 14 days”
Both in their 70 s both their son an daughter had it at the same time.
So long recovery by the look of them today.
Just glad they came through it.
		
Click to expand...

some of the symptoms I had during Covid was just unreal. Ave never had a temp like that before yet I was shaking like a dog pooing. Headaches, Ave had millions but these were like nowt Ave had before. Sometimes it felt my head was on a spring, me balance was unreal. But me eyes, I constantly look like am bladdered, glassy eyes. Most people Ave seen with Covid have the same glassy eyed look. Taste, I had a beer yesterday, first one since Christmas Day. I might as well of drunk water. Lost count the amount of times Ave just fell asleep on the settee.
One day at a time.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			the problem is Dan that a lot of people that are living on there pension are now in the category of “ were living on there pension”. The vast majority of those that have died being the elderly.
Re the Elderly, they have been through many years of what you mention re being made redundant, uncertain of starting careers etc. A lot of people of all ages are struggling and losing out. How folks recover from this. Ask me this time next year.
		
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Too right, elderly deaths are basically infinity higher than those in under 40, and they are still dying en masse. It's tragic. And indicates that the current system isn't working. 

With that, let's change the wording of my point, for their own safety, the elderly could be further segregated from society. They could be given all they need to live life as comfortably as possible without ever coming into contact with a potential virus carrier. (EG: monopoly on home delivery slots, free sterile transportation to medical appointments. Internet and equipment for zoom calls.) 99% won't be working. Can't see family members, too right! I don't know how anyone can sleep if they've come into close contact with an elderly relative. Just sit in the front garden, and open a window if you have to do it. I just can't comprehend how someone who isn't working and is at high risk is catching the virus right now. 

And yes, elderly people have gone through bad times. But i'm not sure there has ever been an event where almost 20% of the country have been on furlough. Many millions more have been forced to benefits because their contracts don't allow furlough payments. What do you do if you are a graduate from 2020? You have spent almost a year on benefits, if you don't have parents you are homeless unless you've been lucky enough to find council housing. 

If those most at risk were segregated like above, and young people are in-fact going to have to "chance it" without a vaccine. Why wouldn't you open up everything now, what are we waiting for? Get the majority of the population back to work, stop damaging kids futures. 

Obviously that won't be popular on here with the demographic. But if it wasn't such an emotive subject, logically it's an interesting line of investigation.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Too right, elderly deaths are basically infinity higher than those in under 40, and they are still dying en masse. It's tragic. And indicates that the current system isn't working. 

With that, let's change the wording of my point, for their own safety, the elderly could be further segregated from society. They could be given all they need to live life as comfortably as possible without ever coming into contact with a potential virus carrier. (EG: monopoly on home delivery slots, free sterile transportation to medical appointments. Internet and equipment for zoom calls.) 99% won't be working. Can't see family members, too right! I don't know how anyone can sleep if they've come into close contact with an elderly relative. Just sit in the front garden, and open a window if you have to do it. I just can't comprehend how someone who isn't working and is at high risk is catching the virus right now. 

And yes, elderly people have gone through bad times. But i'm not sure there has ever been an event where almost 20% of the country have been on furlough. Many millions more have been forced to benefits because their contracts don't allow furlough payments. What do you do if you are a graduate from 2020? You have spent almost a year on benefits, if you don't have parents you are homeless unless you've been lucky enough to find council housing. 

If those most at risk were segregated like above, and young people are in-fact going to have to "chance it" without a vaccine. Why wouldn't you open up everything now, what are we waiting for? Get the majority of the population back to work, stop damaging kids futures. 

Obviously that won't be popular on here with the demographic. But if it wasn't such an emotive subject, logically it's an interesting line of investigation.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but many elderly people would hate that completely.

The majority find the internet and modern ways scary. Don't trust online banking..don't trust video calling. Normally need help from grandkids to fix stuff like that. They would be prime for fraud as lack of understanding means they will be prayed on.

Also older people their lifes are their family. Zoom won't replace it where as for younger generation it would be ok for now. They miss the social interaction more.

Ofc there will be those who this would suit. The except that proves the rule.

My grandparents both have had 2 dozes of the vaccine now so In 3 weeks at least they will be safe. My grandad has half a lung due to cancer , yet they were going out after 3 months as they both in their 80s and see it as they might not see people again if they shut away. They would rather die sooner than have a life like prison (to them)

I've avoided them like the plague as i don't want to kill them

We are approaching the end of a long journey. No point rushing it now


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## bobmac (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			With that, let's change the wording of my point, for their own safety, the elderly could be further segregated from society.
		
Click to expand...

What age would you consider 'elderly'?


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What age would you consider 'elderly'?
		
Click to expand...

My definition wouldn't matter. Whatever the age is that starts the dramatic rise in hospital admissions and deaths proportionate to that percentage of the population.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What age would you consider 'elderly'?
		
Click to expand...

Presumably it would be where the curve for death from covid really jumps sharply.

I appreciate @DanFST comments may be uncomfortable for some but it is healthy to discuss other options. Someone pointed out Indonesia are taking this approach, as are China. We are committed to our approach now so no chance to change but perhaps under review, after this is all over, we may decide that their approach would be more effective.


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## bobmac (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			My definition wouldn't matter. Whatever the age is that starts the dramatic rise in hospital admissions and deaths proportionate to that percentage of the population.
		
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Just for the sake of discussion, you must have some idea. Over 50? 60? 70? 80?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

It won’t work for the simple fact you can’t guarantee protecting the elderley or those at risk.

We still don’t know enough about how it spreads, otherwise we’d control it, so unless you have the sterile facilities to move those elderley and at risk in to, to guarantee their safety, waste of time.

You couldn’t “force” people in to isolation, it’s a complete fantasy argument from those a bit bored of covid.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Just for the sake of discussion, you must have some idea. Over 50? 60? 70? 80?
		
Click to expand...

Whatever the data suggests. As stated before.




pauldj42 said:



			You couldn’t “force” people in to isolation, it’s a complete fantasy argument from those a bit bored of covid.
		
Click to expand...

Why? I've been forced into isolation? For something that didn't kill me last time. And I won't be going to hospital if it strikes me again.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Whatever the data suggests. As stated before.




Why? I've been forced into isolation? For something that didn't kill me last time. And I won't be going to hospital if it strikes me again.
		
Click to expand...

Because some of ”these” elderley and at risk people are the rich/powerful people in this Country and they will never ever go in to quarantine with the scroats. 

MP’s, The Queen? Won’t happen, complete non-starter.

Your method needed implementing on day 1 with the correct resources to even have a chance, nobody is going to change tack after 10 months.


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## SteveJay (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Whatever the data suggests. As stated before.
Why? I've been forced into isolation? For something that didn't kill me last time. And I won't be going to hospital if it strikes me again.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know it won't kill you? There have been a few reports on here from people like Homer, of healthy young people dying. Yes, instances are low but there are younger people being hospitalised. I think your recent posts come across as sod the elderly, just let them vegetate in isolation or die, so I can get on with my life as I have longer to live. Very selfish and arrogant viewpoint in my opinion. And I am still of working age.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

What of the effect upon the economy?

Isolating the over 65's would deny it of the benefit of a  section of the community with one of the highest levels of available and disposable income.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			What of the effect upon the economy?

Isolating the over 65's would deny it of the benefit of a  section of the community with one of the highest levels of available and disposable income.
		
Click to expand...

I think they sell Werthers on Amazon now 😉

In all seriousness, I can see Dan’s point. At the moment, everyone is isolating. Would it be a better option to open up the economy, but spend half the current outlay on ensuring those most at risk could isolate safely and securely? Would reduce the pressure on the NHS and allow the currently failing economy to start recovery. 
I haven’t thought about this in any real depth, but on the surface I can see some benefits. 
And yes, I’m of working age. And also yes, if I was retired and over the age at which COVID becomes a real issue then I think I would accept an enforced lockdown if it improved the future prospects of my kids.


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## Reemul (Jan 16, 2021)

The reality is you cannot successfully isolate 10 million people while allowing the rest to go about their business as usual. It cannot be done, there is too much cross pollination.

A lot of people really fail to see and understand the bigger picture, they just look at from their own narrow perspective and assume widening it will work.

I spoke to someone the other day who said it's joke and we need to open up and we were talking about her parents who are elderly and I explained on the school run a large amount of kid pick ups were from the grand parents (she doesn't have kids) and she said well that will need to stop and I said it can't as the single parent is working and she is like well that's their fault, change jobs and I'm like what! one my friends is a nurse, her husband left her and grand parents collect otherwise she cannot work and we really need nurses.

No view of the bigger picture or issues at all.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

Reemul said:



			The reality is you cannot successfully isolate 10 million people while allowing the rest to go about their business as usual. It cannot be done, there is too much cross pollination.

A lot of people really fail to see and understand the bigger picture, they just look at from their own narrow perspective and assume widening it will work.

I spoke to someone the other day who said it's joke and we need to open up and we were talking about her parents who are elderly and I explained on the school run a large amount of kid pick ups were from the grand parents (she doesn't have kids) and she said well that will need to stop and I said it can't as the single parent is working and she is like well that's their fault, change jobs and I'm like what! one my friends is a nurse, her husband left her and grand parents collect otherwise she cannot work and we really need nurses.

No view of the bigger picture or issues at all.
		
Click to expand...

Or, the bigger picture is that these issues might be cheaper to sort than the costs of the full lockdown. I don’t know. Do you?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			How do you know it won't kill you? There have been a few reports on here from people like Homer, of healthy young people dying. Yes, instances are low but there are younger people being hospitalised. I think your recent posts come across as sod the elderly, just let them vegetate in isolation or die, so I can get on with my life as I have longer to live. Very selfish and arrogant viewpoint in my opinion. And I am still of working age.
		
Click to expand...

Guy at work is 28 , he got covid back in march

He is ex army, fittest person around. Used to run marathons for fun

Fast forward to now..he gets out of breath walking up the hill from station , he isn't built anymore he is skin and bones. Gets tired a lot isn't allowed to work nights as they tire him out

Welcome long covid, like you say can happen to anyone


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Or, the bigger picture is that these issues might be cheaper to sort than the costs of the full lockdown. I don’t know. Do you?
		
Click to expand...

These issues would be put on the person and not the nation we all know that


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 16, 2021)

Police checking on the A77 yesterday evening, good to see as it seemed very busy.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			These issues would be put on the person and not the nation we all know that
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I am certainly no fan of this government, or it’s handling of the pandemic ( best stop now else I’ll get a warning 😉). My point was more a theoretical one and in my theory, our philanthropic leaders would shoulder the majority of the costs 😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Or, the bigger picture is that these issues might be cheaper to sort than the costs of the full lockdown. I don’t know. Do you?
		
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Totally agree if this was Lockdown 1 and Day 1 with the benefit of hindsight.

Majority of our feelings and opinions though have been shaped by the last 10 months.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I think they sell Werthers on Amazon now 😉

In all seriousness, I can see Dan’s point. At the moment, everyone is isolating. Would it be a better option to open up the economy, but spend half the current outlay on ensuring those most at risk could isolate safely and securely? Would reduce the pressure on the NHS and allow the currently failing economy to start recovery.
I haven’t thought about this in any real depth, but on the surface I can see some benefits.
And yes, I’m of working age. And also yes, if I was retired and over the age at which COVID becomes a real issue then I think I would accept an enforced lockdown if it improved the future prospects of my kids.
		
Click to expand...

So the young go back  to work 🤔 

We have a heavy reliance upon the service sectors such as hospitality, catering, retail etc;

Who is there, Mon to Fri, 9.00 'til  6.00, for these sectors to serve?

So fewer (young) employees needed and so those that lose their jobs see no benefit and soon aren't contributing to the economy themselves. 

And so on and so on.

The actions of us all are intertwined at so many levels that this type of isolation is totally impractical.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Too right, elderly deaths are basically infinity higher than those in under 40, and they are still dying en masse. It's tragic. And indicates that the current system isn't working.

With that, let's change the wording of my point, for their own safety, the elderly could be further segregated from society. They could be given all they need to live life as comfortably as possible without ever coming into contact with a potential virus carrier. (EG: monopoly on home delivery slots, free sterile transportation to medical appointments. Internet and equipment for zoom calls.) 99% won't be working. Can't see family members, too right! I don't know how anyone can sleep if they've come into close contact with an elderly relative. Just sit in the front garden, and open a window if you have to do it. I just can't comprehend how someone who isn't working and is at high risk is catching the virus right now.

And yes, elderly people have gone through bad times. But i'm not sure there has ever been an event where almost 20% of the country have been on furlough. Many millions more have been forced to benefits because their contracts don't allow furlough payments. What do you do if you are a graduate from 2020? You have spent almost a year on benefits, if you don't have parents you are homeless unless you've been lucky enough to find council housing.

If those most at risk were segregated like above, and young people are in-fact going to have to "chance it" without a vaccine. Why wouldn't you open up everything now, what are we waiting for? Get the majority of the population back to work, stop damaging kids futures.

Obviously that won't be popular on here with the demographic. But if it wasn't such an emotive subject, logically it's an interesting line of investigation.
		
Click to expand...


just what i said a while back but got shot down. I totally agree with this approach. Sweden for the under 60s with a massive approach to defend and care for those that would be asked to isolate. Surely must be better focusing our efforts on isolating, protecting and helping the minority than shutting down the whole economy. Would we still have had a lot of elderly deaths? No doubt. Higher or lower than we have had? Who knows. But if done well you would hope an imorovement and a massive saving of money that will cripple us for the next 50 years - some of which (tens of billions) of which could be put into the whole NHS/ Care Home, Supply chain. logistics chain etc that will help if we ever go through this again


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			How do you know it won't kill you? There have been a few reports on here from people like Homer, of healthy young people dying. Yes, instances are low but there are younger people being hospitalised. I think your recent posts come across as sod the elderly, just let them vegetate in isolation or die, so I can get on with my life as I have longer to live. Very selfish and arrogant viewpoint in my opinion. And I am still of working age.
		
Click to expand...

It didn't kill me last time! I'd be surprised if it was worse the second time around.



MetalMickie said:



			What of the effect upon the economy?

Isolating the over 65's would deny it of the benefit of a  section of the community with one of the highest levels of available and disposable income.
		
Click to expand...

The economy is now fubar. I'm unsure how isolating those with more disposable income, as opposed to everyone as of right now is going to make it worse? Do you think the tax from that disposable income covers all the furlough payments and benefits?




pauldj42 said:



			Because some of ”these” elderley and at risk people are the rich/powerful people in this Country and they will never ever go in to quarantine with the scroats.

MP’s, The Queen? Won’t happen, complete non-starter.

Your method needed implementing on day 1 with the correct resources to even have a chance, nobody is going to change tack after 10 months.
		
Click to expand...

If anyhting, it's the opposite. We didn't contain this thing, a full lockdown was far too late. Now a year on might be the time to change tact.



pauljames87 said:



			Guy at work is 28 , he got covid back in march

He is ex army, fittest person around. Used to run marathons for fun

Fast forward to now..he gets out of breath walking up the hill from station , he isn't built anymore he is skin and bones. Gets tired a lot isn't allowed to work nights as they tire him out

Welcome long covid, like you say can happen to anyone
		
Click to expand...

That sucks, but if we are to go out without a vaccine as is most likely to happen, the same thing would have happened to him.




MetalMickie said:



			So the young go back  to work 🤔

We have a heavy reliance upon the service sectors such as hospitality, catering, retail etc;

Who is there, Mon to Fri, 9.00 'til  6.00, for these sectors to serve?

So fewer (young) employees needed and so those that lose their jobs see no benefit and soon aren't contributing to the economy themselves.

And so on and so on.

The actions of us all are intertwined at so many levels that this type of isolation is totally impractical.
		
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I'm not sure many elderly people are propping up London's retail and hospitality industry midweek. As stated previously, I seldom see an *at risk* person in canary wharf, but thousands of hospitality and retail staff have lost their jobs there, as there is no demand because offices are shut. I'd hazard a guess the working population spend more after office hours than the non working population throughout the rest of the day.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			It didn't kill me last time! I'd be surprised if it was worse the second time around.



The economy is now fubar. I'm unsure how isolating everyone, as opposed to just the section with more disposable income is going to make it worse? Do you think the tax from that disposable income covers all the furlough payments and benefits?




If anyhting, it's the opposite. We didn't contain this thing, a full lockdown was far too late. Now a year on might be the time to change tact.



That sucks, but if we are to go out without a vaccine as is most likely to happen, the same thing would have happened to him.





I'm not sure many elderly people are propping up London's retail and hospitality industry midweek. As stated previously, I seldom see an *at risk* person in canary wharf, but thousands of hospitality and retail staff have lost their jobs there, as there is no demand because offices are shut. I'd hazard a guess the working population spend more after office hours than the non working population throughout the rest of the day.
		
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And there in a nutshell you have summed up this issue. 

You are viewing it solely from a London centric, financial services viewpoint. 

Since 2008 not the most reliable view.😉


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			So the young go back  to work 🤔

We have a heavy reliance upon the service sectors such as hospitality, catering, retail etc;

Who is there, Mon to Fri, 9.00 'til  6.00, for these sectors to serve?

So fewer (young) employees needed and so those that lose their jobs see no benefit and soon aren't contributing to the economy themselves.

And so on and so on.

The actions of us all are intertwined at so many levels that this type of isolation is totally impractical.
		
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p,lenty of people - our coffee shops, market food stalls etc are solidly busy - when we are allowed out and they are open. People working from home like to get out and meet up in the day to get away from the screens


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

For the avoidance of doubt. I’m not saying that the shielding of the vulnerable, whilst the “young” go free is the right option. But I do think it’s now become a debate with having.

I agree with Paul that the first lockdown was far too late, and far too lenient. Subsequent decisions have been suspiciously poor and have made very little actual difference. However, we are where we are now. 

As the vaccine is rolled out, there will come a point at which a decision must be made. Open up, whilst protecting the most vulnerable. Or keep everything shut and incur further debts.
As someone of working age (46), with school/college age kids, and a vulnerable parent, I think I know what I’d prefer.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			p,lenty of people - our coffee shops, market food stalls etc are solidly busy - when we are allowed out and they are open. People working from home like to get out and meet up in the day to get away from the screens
		
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Maybe they won't  be working from home in view of the stats questioning the efficiency of that practice.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			And there in a nutshell you have summed up this issue.

You are viewing it solely from a London centric, financial services viewpoint.

Since 2008 not the most reliable view.😉
		
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But as London financial services contributed 66 Billion to the economy, and 29 billion in tax. It's one that you dismiss as invalid, because you don't like bankers. Also it's projected to reach more than 950% of GDP in the next 30 years.....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

Mrs Thatcher clearly left a greater legacy than  I thought. 

"There is no such thing as society!"

Clearly not, just our own self interests.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			For the avoidance of doubt. I’m not saying that the shielding of the vulnerable, whilst the “young” go free is the right option. But I do think it’s now become a debate with having.

I agree with Paul that the first lockdown was far too late, and far too lenient. Subsequent decisions have been suspiciously poor and have made very little actual difference. However, we are where we are now.

As the vaccine is rolled out, there will come a point at which a decision must be made. Open up, whilst protecting the most vulnerable. Or keep everything shut and incur further debts.
As someone of working age (46), with school/college age kids, and a vulnerable parent, I think I know what I’d prefer.
		
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Surely the whole “plan” is/has been to open up at a certain point? That point is now on the horizon, looking to change tact at this point would be irresponsible looking at the money already spent.

As for we’ll be paying it back for the next 30/50/70 years, so what? The Country will be continually in debt and those at the bottom will suffer the most, people talk about the economic impact as if we’d all be affected equally, almost as if they really do care about someone else rather than themselves.

Better a debt ridden Country that forces us to get our priorities right and looks after all rather than the reliance on those decision makers who see no further than pounds, shillings & pence.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Mrs Thatcher clearly left a greater legacy than  I thought.

"There is no such thing as society!"

Clearly not, just our own self interests.
		
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I take great offence at being compared to the milk snatcher 😂

I politely disagree with the point of your post. The debate is about what’s best for Society as a whole. Not what’s best for a section of it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			But as London financial services contributed 66 Billion to the economy, and 29 billion in tax. It's one that you dismiss as invalid, because you don't like bankers. Also it's projected to reach more than 950% of GDP in the next 30 years.....
		
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Unlike yourself I dismiss no section of society or the economy. 

I prefer to take a broader view that includes us all.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely the whole “plan” is/has been to open up at a certain point? That point is now on the horizon, looking to change tact at this point would be irresponsible looking at the money already spent.

As for we’ll be paying it back for the next 30/50/70 years, so what? The Country will be continually in debt and those at the bottom will suffer the most, people talk about the economic impact as if we’d all be affected equally, almost as if they really do care about someone else rather than themselves.

Better a debt ridden Country that forces us to get our priorities right and looks after all rather than the reliance on those decision makers who see no further than pounds, shillings & pence.
		
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I fully agree that the burden of debt will disproportionately fall on those at the bottom of the ladder. ‘Twas ever thus. But that’s a different fight (that I’m right by your side in the trenches on).

The debate I’m interested in is the one that decides at which point the restrictions start to be lifted. Do we wait for 70-80% of the population to be vaccinated? Is it 20-30% plus shielding the vulnerable?
I’m genuinely interested in hearing people’s views 👍


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Unlike yourself I dismiss no section of society or the economy.

I prefer to take a broader view that includes us all.
		
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Exactly my point, nor do I. And there is reason to believe the current method isn't working best for society as a whole.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Unlike yourself I dismiss no section of society or the economy.

I prefer to take a broader view that includes us all.
		
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DanFST said:



			Exactly my point, nor do I. And there is reason to believe the current method isn't working best for society as a whole.
		
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I believe both care, it seems the disagreement is Lives v Money.


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## chrisd (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Exactly my point, nor do I. And there is reason to believe the current method isn't working best for society as a whole.
		
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I think it's more a case of society not working best for the current method !


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I believe both care, it seems the disagreement is Lives v Money.
		
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I really don’t think it’s possible to separate them any more.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I think it's more a case of society not working best for the current method !
		
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I think that's key aswell. Do you think the models that were used when we went down this path anticipated the level of rule breaking? Or the numbers of those most at risk, not social distancing etc.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I take great offence at being compared to the milk snatcher 😂

I politely disagree with the point of your post. The debate is about what’s best for Society as a whole. Not what’s best for a section of it.
		
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But I am afraid that you did state that your preference might be based upon being of working age with children at school/college.

I am 71 with two sons in their thirties and grandchildren of school age so I think I take a pretty broad view of this. 

Anyway aside from the economic issues I tend to agree with the SAGE and Government that protection of the NHS is paramount and this can best be achieved by the speedy roll out of the vaccine programme to the more vulnerable.

Segregation will not prevent the spread of the virus within that group as even locked down there would remain too many opportunities for transmission.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Maybe they won't  be working from home in view of the stats questioning the efficiency of that practice.
		
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same argument either way - busy before virus, busy during. Working from home, working in office...They will miss the silver dollar for sure but will be viable businesses, employing people and generating tax


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			same argument either way - busy before virus, busy during. Working from home, working in office...They will miss the silver dollar for sure but will be viable businesses, employing people and generating tax
		
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Many will not be viable.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			But I am afraid that you did state that your preference might be based upon being of working age with children at school/college.
		
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You missed out the vulnerable parent bit 👍


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I fully agree that the burden of debt will disproportionately fall on those at the bottom of the ladder. ‘Twas ever thus. But that’s a different fight (that I’m right by your side in the trenches on).

The debate I’m interested in is the one that decides at which point the restrictions start to be lifted. Do we wait for 70-80% of the population to be vaccinated? Is it 20-30% plus shielding the vulnerable?
I’m genuinely interested in hearing people’s views 👍
		
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I think we have to start opening up when we hit 25% - hopefully end Feb


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Many will not be viable.
		
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maybe but you don't know that. Some not being viable is a lot better than none at the moment


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I think we have to start opening up when we hit 25% - hopefully end Feb
		
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Hopefully Tier system after the Feb half term 🤞


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Anyway aside from the economic issues I tend to agree with the SAGE and Government that protection of the NHS is paramount and this can best be achieved by the speedy roll out of the vaccine programme to the more vulnerable.

Segregation will not prevent the spread of the virus within that group as even locked down there would remain too many opportunities for transmission.
		
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I think you've hit on 2 key points there:


As it stands, segregation would not prevent that group catching it. However if you prioritised support and aid to those most at risk, it could be possible.

And protecting the NHS:  BBC was reporting this morning that hospital admission for under 50's have gone up to almost 20% of the total admissions. Scary stuff!

Actually 80% of a much larger section of society are not taking hospital beds. I haven't run the numbers, but I would assume cases in the under 50's are dramatically higher than the over 50's. So it's even more misleading. So to protect the NHS, those most at risk, taking the majority of beds need to have stronger restrictions, because it currently isn't working.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			maybe but you don't know that. Some not being viable is a lot better than none at the moment
		
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Certainly the numbers are unlikely to have any significant benefit to the economy.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Certainly the numbers are unlikely to have any significant benefit to the economy.
		
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?? So we would have seen the econmy contract 12% this year if we had left the economy open for the 75% to continue operating and put massive resources areound shileding and looking after the vulnerable?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

How about fully opening up sectors of the economy such as  manufacturing,  construction and finance; retail  on a limited basis.

Schools to be reopened. 

But no opening of leisure and hospitality as larger social gatherings appear to disproportionately account for the spread.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			?? So we would have seen the econmy contract 12% this year if we had left the economy open for the 75% to continue operating and put massive resources areound shileding and looking after the vulnerable?
		
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The 75% would not have accepted the economy being fully open.

Just look at the fuss that was made when schools first reopened.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

People seem to bemusing the term 'elderly' and 'care home residents' as synonyms. They really aren't. The clinical and societal cases for vaccinating the average fit active 72 year old man and Doris in the nursing home who thinks Harold Wilson is Prime Minister are really very different. Risk to the person is one consideration certainly, but framed in terms of quality of life, and taking into account transmission risk as well. Doris is never going on a ventilator even if acutely ill.  

I always reckoned the best clinical and societal to start was with the oldest tranche in the workforce, focussing on men, BAME and those with risk factors, and working upwards and downwards thereafter.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			The 75% would not have accepted the economy being fully open.

Just look at the fuss that was made when schools first reopened.
		
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how do you know. I think they would. Sharp and quick at the start, which we all know was not done and a disaster. I don't know many people who are non vulnerable that would have an issue with it. I also think the 75% should have had strong covid-prevenataion guidance but that the ecomomy could have been functioninhg much more normally - sure some changes like big crowds, events etc to contain things but a lot more like it was after the first lockdown


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

Our method has been flawed for months 

Poorly managed 

We are shutting down air travel from Monday with isolation for people.. sorry but that should have been day 1

I've said it before Australia were using our model but it didn't work so changed to another model..they have under 1000 deaths .. that's our daily.

Yes we can talk about second wave , mutations.. but with proper controls from day one we could have kept on top of it 

Eat out to help out or eat out to spread was badly thought out to give the economy a shot but we paid for it again 

Even now our measures aren't strong enough. In Australia if you arrive to the control you have to stay in a government run hotel for 2 weeks at a cost to you. No get out early for a test. Do your 2 weeks then you can't infect anyone 

We have been obessed with money. Football is a prime example. By all means domestic football is fine the way it was run by why are we letting European, international football happen? Money. stay in your safe bubble every week but hey all the English , Spanish etc meet up in your squads .. spread it around then take home to your team's 

It's the obession with money and getting back to "normal" rather than changing things to adapt for a while that's cost us

That and poor planning. Whitty did a speach in 2018 was it about pandemics and what we have to do to prepare and have these plans in place . Completely ignored 

We are told repeatedly we are following the science .. no we have ignored the science for months and now might listen as it's come to the rescue


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			?? So we would have seen the econmy contract 12% this year if we had left the economy open for the 75% to continue operating and put massive resources areound shileding and looking after the vulnerable?
		
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Paul, the right approach, as recommended to Govt at the start, was to see the health issue and the economic ones as going hand in hand. Hit the virus hard at the start and it would have made a big positive difference to both. Now we are still in a spiral created by web and delayed action, and it is not going to properly stop for another few quarters.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Paul, the right approach, as recommended to Govt at the start, was to see the health issue and the economic ones as going hand in hand. Hit the virus hard at the start and it would have made a big positive difference to both. Now we are still in a spiral created by web and delayed action, and it is not going to properly stop for another few quarters.
		
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i don't disagree - wrong from the start and wrong choices at the wrong times throughout but, i as i said before, i still believe that a halfway house of sweden liberal model and strong focus on the 25% from March would have been infinitely better than the shiiite show we have had, which has been the worst on both measures


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Anyway heard this evening just an hour ago that my wife’s favourite aunt - her mum’s 90yr old twin sister - has COVID-19 and has refused to be moved from her care home to hospital. She’s in a grim little room, alone and on oxygen. Mrs and mil both very upset.  Of course they can’t visit, so know they might never see her again...

Feels like it’s closing in on us all...😞
		
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...and so this morning, all of just over a week later, we hear that my wife’s favourite aunt - her mums twin sister - died last night of COVID-19.  She was in her 91st year but generally fit and well.  But the virus got into the home she has been in for some years. 

And an irony I suppose is that my MIL is getting the vaccination this morning.  We will let her have it before she’s told of her sister‘s passing.  She will be devastated.  Only recently saying to us that she was worried she’d never see her sister again - as she hadn’t seen her since March...

Ah dear. Fortunately this morning my wife is working on the breast cancer telephone helpline she works on - enabling her to be distracted from her own upset by helping women calling in with their breast cancer worries...and that is her passion...

But later today will be difficult.😔


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## drdel (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I think you've hit on 2 key points there:


As it stands, segregation would not prevent that group catching it. However if you prioritised support and aid to those most at risk, it could be possible.

And protecting the NHS:  BBC was reporting this morning that hospital admission for under 50's have gone up to almost 20% of the total admissions. Scary stuff!

Actually 80% of a much larger section of society are not taking hospital beds. I haven't run the numbers, but I would assume cases in the under 50's are dramatically higher than the over 50's. So it's even more misleading. So to protect the NHS, those most at risk, taking the majority of beds need to have stronger restrictions, because it currently isn't working.
		
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Superfiçially an interesting thought that many academics in the 70s and 80s explored. Your assertion is somewhat devoid of robust knowledge of the velocity of money and basic economics in and across the UK's demographics and society.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i don't disagree - wrong from the start and wrong choices at the wrong times throughout but, i as i said before, i still believe that a halfway house of sweden liberal model and strong focus on the 25% from March would have been infinitely better than the shiiite show we have had, which has been the worst on both measures
		
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I have to really careful here as we’re comfortably straying into the realms of politics, so I’ll say this once and if it needs removing then I’ll accept it. 

What this Government has done is to manage the pandemic along Populist Campaign lines......

See you all in a week 😉


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## AmandaJR (Jan 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so this morning, all of just over a week later, we hear that my wife’s favourite aunt - her mums twin sister - died last night of COVID-19.  She was in her 91st year but generally fit and well.  But the virus got into the home she has been in for some years.

And an irony I suppose is that my MIL is getting the vaccination this morning.  We will let her have it before she’s told of her sister‘s passing.  She will be devastated.  Only recently saying to us that she was worried she’d never see her sister again - as she hadn’t seen her since March...

Ah dear. Fortunately this morning my wife is working on the breast cancer telephone helpline she works on - enabling her to be distracted from her own upset by helping women calling in with their breast cancer worries...and that is her passion...

But later today will be difficult.😔
		
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Sounds a tough time - thoughts with you and your wife


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I fully agree that the burden of debt will disproportionately fall on those at the bottom of the ladder. ‘Twas ever thus. But that’s a different fight (that I’m right by your side in the trenches on).

The debate I’m interested in is the one that decides at which point the restrictions start to be lifted. Do we wait for 70-80% of the population to be vaccinated? Is it 20-30% plus shielding the vulnerable?
I’m genuinely interested in hearing people’s views 👍
		
Click to expand...

If the vaccination plan goes ahead as planned, by around mid to end of March, the groups that account for over 90% of the deaths have been vaccinated fully or partially. 

I appreciate there are risks for us others as well, but I’d be fuming if the lockdown kept going past that.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Or, the bigger picture is that these issues might be cheaper to sort than the costs of the full lockdown. I don’t know. Do you?
		
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How about we also lock away disabled, unemployed, BAME, homeless and anyone who is not economically productive.

Just because someone is over sixty doesn't mean they don't work or are Worther sucking, doddering techno retards.   Many work well into their seventies and employ people.

Let's not look at punishing sections of society purely because they are dying and it would create an easier time for others.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Let's not look at punishing sections of society purely because they are dying and it would create an easier time for others.
		
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We shouldn't look at increasing protection for sections of society purely because they are dying?


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How about we also lock away disabled, unemployed, BAME, homeless and anyone who is not economically productive.

Just because someone is over sixty doesn't mean they don't work or are Worther sucking, doddering techno retards.   Many work well into their seventies and employ people.

Let's not look at punishing sections of society purely because they are dying and it would create an easier time for others.
		
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Strange response, but Ok. I’m not sure I ever said anything of the sort really. I specifically referred to those vulnerable and over the age at which COVID becomes a significantly bigger problem. 
And I clearly stated that I would like a discussion of the issue as I hadn’t really considered it overly up to now. 

Why the passive aggressive response to my post?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How about we also lock away disabled, unemployed, BAME, homeless and anyone who is not economically productive.

Just because someone is over sixty doesn't mean they don't work or are Worther sucking, doddering techno retards.   Many work well into their seventies and employ people.
*
Let's not look at punishing sections of society purely because they are dying and it would create an easier time for others.*

Click to expand...



And yet we’ve “punished” what percentage of the population who’ve contributed les than 5% of death....

imo a cut of point has to come soon whereby we allow people to choose what they want. We can’t wait for the entire country to be vaccinated before allowing those less at risk to live.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i don't disagree - wrong from the start and wrong choices at the wrong times throughout but, i as i said before, i still believe that a halfway house of sweden liberal model and strong focus on the 25% from March would have been infinitely better than the shiiite show we have had, which has been the worst on both measures
		
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The Sweden model has been unravelling, though. Much much worse death rates but no better economic performance than its immediate neighbours.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			And yet we’ve “punished” what percentage of the population who’ve contributed les than 5% of death....

imo a cut of point has to come soon whereby we allow people to choose what they want. We can’t wait for the entire country to be vaccinated before allowing those less at risk to live.
		
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Not sure of the exact age where hospitalisations increase rapidly. But if we went off 65+.  There's 12 million over 65's out of a population 66.5 million. And people are still dying in record numbers after a year.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

Going by this, under 44 should be the first groups allowed “freedom”.
From there up you can see covid plays a part.....


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

There is another interesting question looming. What accommodations should be made for vaccine refusers? As society reopens, there will be an expectation that people are vaccinated, in some jobs (NHS, Pimlico Plumbers), to travel by air and possibly for admission into some entertainment venues. Assuming there are very few who have a genuine medical reason not to get any form of vaccination, how should we deal with the rest? They will still get Covid circulating amongst themselves, need ICU admission etc, although in relatively small numbers. 

My default position is that they have made a choice and need to live with the consequences, not travel, not go to whatever entertainment venues require vaccination, not work in the NHS or Pimlico Plumbers, etc. Perhaps they should pay some extra tax for the healthcare costs that may result?


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Going by this, under 44 should be the first groups allowed “freedom”.
From there up you can see covid plays a part.....

View attachment 34508

Click to expand...


Let me say it again.

IT. IS. NOT. JUST. ABOUT. DEATHS.


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is another interesting question looming. What accommodations should be made for vaccine refusers? As society reopens, there will be an expectation that people are vaccinated, in some jobs (NHS, Pimlico Plumbers), to travel by air and possibly for admission into some entertainment venues. Assuming there are very few who have a genuine medical reason not to get any form of vaccination, how should we deal with the rest? They will still get Covid circulating amongst themselves, need ICU admission etc, although in relatively small numbers.

My default position is that they have made a choice and need to live with the consequences, not travel, not go to whatever entertainment venues require vaccination, not work in the NHS or Pimlico Plumbers, etc. Perhaps they should pay some extra tax for the healthcare costs that may result?
		
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I agree that they should obviously be restricted in what they can do. I’m really REALLY uncomfortable with the idea of an NHS tax though. Where does that end? Smoke? - tax. Drink? - tax.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is another interesting question looming. What accommodations should be made for vaccine refusers? As society reopens, there will be an expectation that people are vaccinated, in some jobs (NHS, Pimlico Plumbers), to travel by air and possibly for admission into some entertainment venues. Assuming there are very few who have a genuine medical reason not to get any form of vaccination, how should we deal with the rest? They will still get Covid circulating amongst themselves, need ICU admission etc, although in relatively small numbers.

My default position is that they have made a choice and need to live with the consequences, not travel, not go to whatever entertainment venues require vaccination, not work in the NHS or Pimlico Plumbers, etc. Perhaps they should pay some extra tax for the healthcare costs that may result?
		
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Also what is the NHS going to do to make sure BAME communities take the vaccine? I saw a recent poll stated only 28% in such communities would take the vaccine, despite being at much higher risk.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Let me say it again.

IT. IS. NOT. JUST. ABOUT. DEATHS.
		
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So find me that stat that shows percentage of people with long covid and their age ranges.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I agree that they should obviously be restricted in what they can do. I’m really REALLY uncomfortable with the idea of an NHS tax though. Where does that end? Smoke? - tax. Drink? - tax.
		
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I would say smokers and drinkers are already taxed sufficiently. 

I think smokers contribute more in tax than they take out due to smoke related illness.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Also what is the NHS going to do to make sure BAME communities take the vaccine? I saw a recent poll stated only 28% in such communities would take the vaccine, despite being at much higher risk.
		
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Ostracise anyone who refuses it.

My old dear was dubious about taking it, shes had her letter.
 I had the kids FaceTime her, told her to get used to it as she’d not see em in person. Soon did the trick.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We shouldn't look at increasing protection for sections of society purely because they are dying?
		
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By locking them away.?


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			By locking them away.?
		
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Where are they now?


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			By locking them away.?
		
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So "locking away" everyone hasn't worked. We didn't implement the processes to stop the spread, we lost control.

Older people are still dying at a tragic rate, and everyone is "locked away". Hospitals are at breaking point with those high risk sections of society. People with minimal risk of hospitalisation from covid are dying due to missing other treatments, suicide etc. 

 A change of tact surely should be investigated. We can't contain the spread, we are in a perpetual cycle of lockdowns and then moderate normality.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			So find me that stat that shows percentage of people with long covid and their age ranges.
		
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https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/long-covid
10% of the under 50s who have severe covid May go on to suffer long covid.
so like I say. Open the world up to that age range and allow them the choice.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I agree that they should obviously be restricted in what they can do. I’m really REALLY uncomfortable with the idea of an NHS tax though. Where does that end? Smoke? - tax. Drink? - tax.
		
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I think both drinkers and smokers are already highly taxed

I’m very much in agreement that anyone turning down the vaccine should be restricted in regards travel and crowded venues etc


SocketRocket said:



			By locking them away.?
		
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They are already locked away - but all of us are


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I agree that they should obviously be restricted in what they can do. I’m really REALLY uncomfortable with the idea of an NHS tax though. Where does that end? Smoke? - tax. Drink? - tax.
		
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It isn't going to happen, and was meant provocatively rather than realistically, but the point is that some people are knowingly putting avoidable risk to others and avoidable costs to the NHS, not to mention displacing non-Covid access, by their decisions, and they should be accountable for the broader societal effects as well as accepting personal risk.

I think smoking and drinking are a bit different. I hate smoking as much as anyone, but at one time it was seen as acceptable and normal, even advertised with health benefits. Alcohol has a J-shaped association with health risk, with possible health benefits at low doses, but harm at higher doses. There is no health benefit to the individual or society from vaccination refusal.


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We shouldn't look at increasing protection for sections of society purely because they are dying?
		
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You post up a decent argument for opening up, and then you go and post up a one liner which is just rank!

How about we also go to the other end of the spectrum and do away with lollypop ladies and just let small children cross the road without any 'protection?' That's basically your logic.

For me, recommend isolation for the old. If they decide not, their choice. In the at risk age group, vaccinate those that are active - as Ethan said, Doris who sits in an armchair in the corner of the residents lounge in a care home isn't really at risk especially if the staff and those visiting take adequate precautions, inc being vaccinated.

Then vaccinate from the at risk group down through the diminishing risk groups. Include early vaccination for those that work across the risk groups.

Create a 'vaccine passport.' Those that refuse the vaccine, their choice, can't get travel insurance nor gain access to concerts for football matches. And for those that shout "civil liberties," don't forget there's already laws based on age for drinking alcohol.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			You post up a decent argument for opening up, and then you go and post up a one liner which is just rank!

How about we also go to the other end of the spectrum and do away with lollypop ladies and just let small children cross the road without any 'protection?' That's basically your logic.

For me, recommend isolation for the old. If they decide not, their choice. In the at risk age group, vaccinate those that are active - as Ethan said, Doris who sits in an armchair in the corner of the residents lounge in a care home isn't really at risk especially if the staff and those visiting take adequate precautions, inc being vaccinated.

Then vaccinate from the at risk group down through the diminishing risk groups. Include early vaccination for those that work across the risk groups.

Create a 'vaccine passport.' Those that refuse the vaccine, their choice, can't get travel insurance nor gain access to concerts for football matches. And for those that shout "civil liberties," don't forget there's already laws based on age for drinking alcohol.
		
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...and there are plenty of jobs, roles and activities from which I am excluded if I refuse to accept that I must have certain investigations, clearances and certifications carried out on me - and in some circumstances carried out on my immediate family also.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			You post up a decent argument for opening up, and then you go and post up a one liner which is just rank!
		
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It's not my logic, it was a direct response to Sockets post before. I just changed "punishment" to "protection", as it astounded me.



SocketRocket said:



			Let's not look at punishing sections of society purely because they are dying
		
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I agree with everything you said.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The Sweden model has been unravelling, though. Much much worse death rates but no better economic performance than its immediate neighbours.
		
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I said Sweden plus not as it is


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I said Sweden plus not as it is
		
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Sure, but to paraphrase the old apocryphal Irish expression, if I was going there, I wouldn't start from here. The assumptions underlying Sweden were shown to be wrong. Better to start from the other end, as a hard tight lockdown a la NZ will clearly work if adequate restriction of movement is applied, then work back to see where that is unnecessary.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is another interesting question looming. What accommodations should be made for vaccine refusers? As society reopens, there will be an expectation that people are vaccinated, in some jobs (NHS, Pimlico Plumbers), to travel by air and possibly for admission into some entertainment venues. Assuming there are very few who have a genuine medical reason not to get any form of vaccination, how should we deal with the rest? They will still get Covid circulating amongst themselves, need ICU admission etc, although in relatively small numbers.

My default position is that they have made a choice and need to live with the consequences, not travel, not go to whatever entertainment venues require vaccination, not work in the NHS or Pimlico Plumbers, etc. Perhaps they should pay some extra tax for the healthcare costs that may result?
		
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How would we enforce that at say a rock concert.
We would all need a Central Database number that you would need to quote to buy tickets.
But we would just use someone else’s name.
I agree it needs to be done ,but the logistics would be a nightmare.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			How would we enforce that at say a rock concert.
We would all need a Central Database number that you would need to quote to buy tickets.
But we would just use someone else’s name.
I agree it needs to be done ,but the logistics would be a nightmare.
		
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You would need some sort of vaccination passport, ideally on a phone. QR code which confirms identity, matched to name on ticket, with vaccination status.

As an aside, if any of you have the NHS App (not the track and trace one, the general app), you can link it to your GP surgery and your medication history, including vaccinations will be visible. I imagine it would not be too difficult to use software to convert that information into a more friendly digital certificate.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			How would we enforce that at say a rock concert.
We would all need a Central Database number that you would need to quote to buy tickets.
But we would just use someone else’s name.
I agree it needs to be done ,but the logistics would be a nightmare.
		
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They were talking about an app being developed for this purpose. A number of European countries are keen on this as well. In the instance you give, to gain entrance to the concert you would need your ticket and the passport app showing that you have been vaccinated. The ticket would have your name on it, as would the app.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You would need some sort of vaccination passport, ideally on a phone. QR code which confirms identity, matched to name on ticket, with vaccination status.
		
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Ideal for the future, q1 2022. Problem comes is what do you do before then?


If that was to come in by the summer lets say. Young people haven't been overloading hospitals, they've been subject to the same rules as those at high risk. And then to add more, they are at the bottom of the list to have a normal life once again.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They were talking about an app being developed for this purpose. A number of European countries are keen on this as well. In the instance you give, to gain entrance to the concert you would need your ticket and the passport app showing that you have been vaccinated. The ticket would have your name on it, as would the app.
		
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That would also knock touts on the head.

Let’s get it made!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Correct me if I'm wrong (probably). But I thought the vaccine(s) are less than 100% effective, i.e. it doesn't work for everyone. The success of a vaccination programme is therefore a function of the effectiveness of the vaccine and the proportion of the population who have been vaccinated. Protection comes from less people being susceptible so less virus circulating so less chance of those for whom the vaccine didn't work catching it. i.e. "Herd Immunity" (via vaccination, not the discredited Swedish model)

In which case, nobody's getting out of lockdown when the elderly have been vaccinated - more like when a suitable percentage of the entire population have had it?
		
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From what I've read once the 17 million vunerable have been vaccinated then restrictions can be reduced as those 17 million were those most likely to need the NHS and most likely to die.

Once they are done they can handle the strain from the others getting covid because it's less likely those would need hospitalisation and would most likely recover


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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2021)

Hypothetically speaking The UKs population is 66.6 million. 3.3 million ish have had there first vaccines. 3.3 million have had Covid. There’s about 60 million that have had neither. Every day that gap of 60 million decreases. At what stage can open get back to normality re amount of folk that have vaccines and the amount of folk that will of had Covid. 🤔
That aside our local councillor put a post up on Facebook earlier today. Nottingham evening post rang him and said our community  has the second highest rates in the country. I was in Aldi doing the big shop yesterday. It is not hard to see why. ☹️
Stay safe folks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Correct me if I'm wrong (probably). But I thought the vaccine(s) are less than 100% effective, i.e. it doesn't work for everyone. The success of a vaccination programme is therefore a function of the effectiveness of the vaccine and the proportion of the population who have been vaccinated. Protection comes from less people being susceptible so less virus circulating so less chance of those for whom the vaccine didn't work catching it. i.e. "Herd Immunity" (via vaccination, not the discredited Swedish model)

In which case, nobody's getting out of lockdown when the elderly have been vaccinated - more like when a suitable percentage of the entire population have had it?
		
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Whats suitable percentage ? 

With them not starting on under 60’s until the summer when would you expect lockdown to end ?

They are expected the most vunerable to be done in 4 weeks - that’s when Imo lockdown restrictions will ease 

The numbers are already on the way down - current restrictions are working 

If they start to creep into March that’s two months of lockdown and many businesses especially hospitality will be gone - the affects on the country from the lockdown could potentially be worse than the virus itself


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

Bothers me people using the words “punished” and ”freedom” when discussing the Lockdown, nobody is being “punished” we are being asked to change our behaviour for the benefit of us all for a short period of time.

If this is the worst ”punishment” you have to face in your life, well done, it really isn’t a hardship in the big scheme of things and by changing our behaviour for a short time, think of all the lives we are saving.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Bothers me people using the words “punished” and ”freedom” when discussing the Lockdown, nobody is being “punished” we are being asked to change our behaviour for the benefit of us all for a short period of time.

If this is the worst ”punishment” you have to face in your life, well done, it really isn’t a hardship in the big scheme of things and by changing our behaviour for a short time, think of all the lives we are saving.
		
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 Of course all of that above is true fella. For pretty much all of us on here we could look around the world and find those less fortunate Or who had faced worse.

I wouldn’t down play how big a deal it is though. This level of restriction is unheard of for most of us. It would have been unimaginable 20 months ago.

I think punished is maybe the wrong word. I certainly feel that millions are facing restrictions they didn’t need to. 

Lockdown 65m people because maybe 5m are at risk. Why not lock those 5m down until,we had the vaccine?

At close to 40 I am happy to have followed the rules (mainly), I can be honest and say the 20yr old me wouldn’t have done so.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You would need some sort of vaccination passport, ideally on a phone. QR code which confirms identity, matched to name on ticket, with vaccination status.

As an aside, if any of you have the NHS App (not the track and trace one, the general app), you can link it to your GP surgery and your medication history, including vaccinations will be visible. I imagine it would not be too difficult to use software to convert that information into a more friendly digital certificate.
		
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What about a concert where the demographic is mainly older people ( went to see Michael Ball ) think at 63 I was one of the younger ones.
If you havnt got a phone.
The great British Public are notorious for bypassing things like this.
Ever borrowed someone’s ID to get into a club / pub.?
Not being awkward genuinely think it will be difficult,


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## SocketRocket (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So "locking away" everyone hasn't worked. We didn't implement the processes to stop the spread, we lost control.

Older people are still dying at a tragic rate, and everyone is "locked away". Hospitals are at breaking point with those high risk sections of society. People with minimal risk of hospitalisation from covid are dying due to missing other treatments, suicide etc.

A change of tact surely should be investigated. We can't contain the spread, we are in a perpetual cycle of lockdowns and then moderate normality.
		
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IMO the problem is people still socialising, old people dying are just a symptom of these people's carelessness.   We are currently seeing the penalty of Christmas socialising.

Suggesting older people should be isolated just won't work, look at the continuing deaths in care homes, how much more isolated can these people be.  Also how do you police such a policy, 'Hey Grandad get back home' I can just see the social divisions that would create.

I'm not exactly a card carrying Socialist but I see us as being in this together and we should have used a much tighter lockdown program for everyone much earlier.  The economy is damaged and that can't be undone so the current policy of vaccinating the most vunrable first is now the only way we can get death rates down and stop the health service crashing.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They were talking about an app being developed for this purpose. A number of European countries are keen on this as well. In the instance you give, to gain entrance to the concert you would need your ticket and the passport app showing that you have been vaccinated. The ticket would have your name on it, as would the app.
		
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So if I want four tickets for the family I am going to need a lot of info.
I have run out of time a few times on ticket websites they are a nightmare .

Identity cards that have your health status among other things.
But that’s another debate.!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Of course all of that above is true fella. For pretty much all of us on here we could look around the world and find those less fortunate Or who had faced worse.

I wouldn’t down play how big a deal it is though. This level of restriction is unheard of for most of us. It would have been unimaginable 20 months ago.

I think punished is maybe the wrong word. I certainly feel that millions are facing restrictions they didn’t need to.

Lockdown 65m people because maybe 5m are at risk. Why not lock those 5m down until,we had the vaccine?

At close to 40 I am happy to have followed the rules (mainly), I can be honest and say the 20yr old me wouldn’t have done so.
		
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Show me were I’ve played it down? It’s huge, I’m not for one minute thinking it’s easy, but it’s not a punishment.

A lot of opinions we are seeing expressed is based on hindsight, and I’m sure every single one of us would change things if we were to face something similar.

But imo, the 5m at risk are almost becoming resented and “blamed” for what everyone is going through.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			So if I want four tickets for the family I am going to need a lot of info.
I have run out of time a few times on ticket websites they are a nightmare .

Identity cards that have your health status among other things.
But that’s another debate.!
		
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If you want to book a flight now you need full name, dob, passport number. All fiddly but we accept it. If you want concert tickets then maybe you will just need to be prepared with info before you start the process. In this instance I can see each person's name having to be on each ticket, some do it already to help stop touts, and then the app having to be shown at point of entry to the venue, not at point of booking.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



*Show me were I’ve played it down? It’s huge, I’m not for one minute thinking it’s easy, but it’s not a punishment.*

A lot of opinions we are seeing expressed is based on hindsight, and I’m sure every single one of us would change things if we were to face something similar.

But imo, the 5m at risk are almost becoming resented and “blamed” for what everyone is going through.
		
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It was a figure of speqch fella. Not an accusation. 

I certainly dont blame the 5m at all, but I do fear they will be resented. Especially if some sort of pass is given to people post vaccine. And there are 60m less at risk who then wait longest for the pass....


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## bluewolf (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It isn't going to happen, and was meant provocatively rather than realistically, but the point is that some people are knowingly putting avoidable risk to others and avoidable costs to the NHS, not to mention displacing non-Covid access, by their decisions, and they should be accountable for the broader societal effects as well as accepting personal risk.

I think smoking and drinking are a bit different. I hate smoking as much as anyone, but at one time it was seen as acceptable and normal, even advertised with health benefits. Alcohol has a J-shaped association with health risk, with possible health benefits at low doses, but harm at higher doses. There is no health benefit to the individual or society from vaccination refusal.
		
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I agree completely, but something like an additional tax for anti-vaxers could be the thin end of a very disturbing wedge 👍


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about a concert where the demographic is mainly older people ( went to see Michael Ball ) think at 63 I was one of the younger ones.
If you havnt got a phone.
The great British Public are notorious for bypassing things like this.
*Ever borrowed someone’s ID to get into a club / pub.?*
Not being awkward genuinely think it will be difficult,
		
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😂😂😂

Really. That's your realistic barrier to this working?


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## chrisd (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Lockdown 65m people because maybe 5m are at risk. Why not lock those 5m down until,we had the vaccine?
		
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Given that a huge number of us are required  to look after your children, pick them up from school etc etc then just locking us down wouldn't work 🤔🤔


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Given that a huge number of us are required  to look after your children, pick them up from school etc etc then just locking us down wouldn't work 🤔🤔
		
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Required? Why would someone at risk be interacting with children? 

Many who don't have the benefit of grandparents survive.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Given that a huge number of us are required  to look after your children, pick them up from school etc etc then just locking us down wouldn't work 🤔🤔
		
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People can’t have it both ways mate.

If we are to genuinely believe certain demographics are most at risk, we shouldn’t be asking them to assist.

My in laws have only helped when the kids have been off school, and then only after 2 weeks had passed.


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## chrisd (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			People can’t have it both ways mate.

If we are to genuinely believe certain demographics are most at risk, we shouldn’t be asking them to assist.

My in laws have only helped when the kids have been off school, and then only after 2 weeks had passed.
		
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I'm not referring specifically to anyone here but grand parents are more and more doing child care these days and how do people work, other than at home, if their childcare is not available?


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## Reemul (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Required? Why would someone at risk be interacting with children?

Many who don't have the benefit of grandparents survive.
		
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You have no idea how many families rely on grandparents, it's massive, from school collections to looking after the grand kids so parents can work and so on.

You put up some reasonable points and then continually ruining it by showing your true colours with the statement above which actually shows you have no idea how Grandparents and support works for millions of people which again shows your thoughts are based around your perception and not the bigger picture regardless of what you put out on here at times.

There are 15.5 million people over 60  and nearly 9 million over 70. As said even if we tried it we cannot isolate 15 million people successfully.

Some of you really are ignorant, there is a massive amount of elderly who support their family and have no choice in the matter, single parents who have to work, couple who are both in low paid work that cannot afford to pay for child care and so on. I know you might not be affected by that but there is a very large amount of people who have no choice. Around 40% of pic ups at my sons school are grand parents. It's even more at my wifes school.

We have unfortunately become a society where both parents need to work and so many are poorly paid that the only way they can manage is with the help of grand parents, it's not like a choice it's a must have to and however unpalatable that is it is true and does not disappear just because you want it to.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Required? Why would someone at risk be interacting with children? 

Many who don't have the benefit of grandparents survive.
		
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So many people can't survive without grandparents. 

My colleague his wife gave up work to be childcare 

My parents and wife's parents do our childcare 

Without them we wouldn't cope all our extra cash would be going to childcare which could lead to issues if down the line we need money and have no savings because it's being spent on childcare.

Some people aren't so lucky to have the option 

Also it's getting childcare if you suddently remove all the grandparents help then many more need childcare which simply isn't there.


Let's back this up with some figures 

My wife works 3 days a week 

So £60 a day childcare per child 

3 kids but one going into school so that wouldn't be full rate say after school and breakfast clubs 

£360 a week for the twins 
£30 a week for the eldest 

£1560 a month


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## bobmac (Jan 16, 2021)

Reemul said:



			There are 15.5 million people over 60  and nearly 9 million over 70. As said even if we tried it *we cannot isolate 15 million people successfully.*

Click to expand...

However, we can vaccinate the over 70s by next month.




Then everyone can have their restrictions eased, NHS pressure reduced and businesses getting back to work.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I'm not referring specifically to anyone here but grand parents are more and more doing child care these days and how do people work, other than at home, if their childcare is not available?
		
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Once the vaccine is up and running, back to normal.

until then. Look for support from work on the best ways to get by. That may involve a financial hit for some, but the alternative could be losing that childcare option for good.....


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Reemul said:



			You have no idea how many families rely on grandparents, it's massive, from school collections to looking after the grand kids so parents can work and so on.

You put up some reasonable points and then continually ruining it by *showing your true colours* with the statement above which actually shows you have no idea how Grandparents and support works for millions of people.
		
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What is that supposed to mean?

We are in the middle of a pandemic. Those at high risk should not be mixing with children. Unfortunately if high risk people do mix with children, a lot of people will die. Just as many have after taking the risk and mixing with family at Christmas.

I don't have parents left, or any family support network. Are you saying It's impossible for me to raise children, or that I will just have to make some uncomfortable sacrifices throughout the early years?

Edit: You've taken me saying those at high risk. To equate to all grandparents. That's obviously not the case.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			What is that supposed to mean?

We are in the middle of a pandemic. Those at high risk should not be mixing with children. Unfortunately if high risk people do mix with children, a lot of people will die. Just as many have after taking the risk and mixing with family at Christmas. 

I don't have parents left, or any family support network. Are you saying It's impossible for me to raise children, or that I will just have to make some uncomfortable sacrifices throughout the early years?
		
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Do you have kids? Not digging out just a question


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## chrisd (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Once the vaccine is up and running, back to normal.

until then. Look for support from work on the best ways to get by. That may involve a financial hit for some, but the alternative could be losing that childcare option for good.....
		
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Not everyone vaccinated will gain immunity so that might be an issue. If two working parents cant make alternative arrangements then undoubtedly pressure comes back to grand parents. It's very difficult to say "no" when you get the " no one we know has it" etc etc but we have ceased child minding  since the latest lock down as the Covid numbers have rocketed and I dont want to catch it just as we're likely to get the jab! Add to that that we really really want to see our son, daughter in law and grand children.


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## Slime (Jan 16, 2021)

The govt. shouldn't have done that.
The govt. should have done this.
I'm just so happy I don't have to make the decisions.



Hindsight ......................................... ain't it just AWESOME!


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Not everyone vaccinated will gain immunity so that might be an issue. If two working parents cant make alternative arrangements then undoubtedly pressure comes back to grand parents. It's very difficult to say "no" when you get the " no one we know has it" etc etc but we have ceased child minding  since the latest lock down as the Covid numbers have rocketed and I dont want to catch it just as we're likely to get the jab! Add to that that we really really want to see our son, daughter in law and grand children.
		
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Oh I totally understand the struggle for all involved mate. It's everyone's choice what they're willing to do to help. I get its hard to say no. Maybe the question shouldn't be asked.... But that's for each to decide. 

My in laws live 6 doors away. And they still feel isolated from us. 
They watched the girsl open Xmas presents through our front window.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about a concert where the demographic is mainly older people ( went to see Michael Ball ) think at 63 I was one of the younger ones.
If you havnt got a phone.
The great British Public are notorious for bypassing things like this.
Ever borrowed someone’s ID to get into a club / pub.?
Not being awkward genuinely think it will be difficult,
		
Click to expand...

What's the alternative? Relying on the good graces of the public - When did that ever work?. Concerts full of older people could be a massacre if there are any infected people coughing.

Just last week, I heard of a vaccination clinic where a person came in, was asked if they had any symptoms of Covid or had been tested, said no, then while sitting in the waiting room was recognised by one of the GPs as having had a positive test 2 days before. Admitted this but said they wanted the vacc anyway, but everyone else in the waiting room now exposed, clinic closed and everyone sent home to self isolate including staff who did not have PPE. Deep clean needed on waiting room. Dozens of people inconvenienced and put at risk by one thoughtless idiot.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Of course all of that above is true fella. For pretty much all of us on here we could look around the world and find those less fortunate Or who had faced worse.

I wouldn’t down play how big a deal it is though. This level of restriction is unheard of for most of us. It would have been unimaginable 20 months ago.

I think punished is maybe the wrong word. I certainly feel that millions are facing restrictions they didn’t need to.

Lockdown 65m people because maybe 5m are at risk. Why not lock those 5m down until,we had the vaccine?

At close to 40 I am happy to have followed the rules (mainly), I can be honest and say the 20yr old me wouldn’t have done so.
		
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What makes you think only 5m are at risk?


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			😂😂😂

Really. That's your realistic barrier to this working?
		
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No I’m just asking the question.
It’s not as if everyone has been sticking to the lockdown rules is it?
But if you don’t have a smart phone ( lots don’t ) what then?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			However, we can vaccinate the over 70s by next month.

View attachment 34510


Then everyone can have their restrictions eased, NHS pressure reduced and businesses getting back to work.
		
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We won’t be under the same restrictions until those groups are done - that will take until at least June/July 

After the first bunch are done then it will be a tier system


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 16, 2021)

Reemul said:



			You have no idea how many families rely on grandparents, it's massive, from school collections to looking after the grand kids so parents can work and so on.

You put up some reasonable points and then continually ruining it by showing your true colours with the statement above which actually shows you have no idea how Grandparents and support works for millions of people which again shows your thoughts are based around your perception and not the bigger picture regardless of what you put out on here at times.

There are 15.5 million people over 60  and nearly 9 million over 70. As said even if we tried it we cannot isolate 15 million people successfully.

Some of you really are ignorant, there is a massive amount of elderly who support their family and have no choice in the matter, single parents who have to work, couple who are both in low paid work that cannot afford to pay for child care and so on. I know you might not be affected by that but there is a very large amount of people who have no choice. Around 40% of pic ups at my sons school are grand parents. It's even more at my wifes school.

We have unfortunately become a society where both parents need to work and so many are poorly paid that the only way they can manage is with the help of grand parents, it's not like a choice it's a must have to and however unpalatable that is it is true and does not disappear just because you want it to.
		
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I believe the discussion isn’t generic in regards all grandparents or elderly people but really only the ones who are vunerable , who have had to shield or over the 80

The demographic group of people who shouldn’t be mixing with children and should be isolating 

My daughter hasn’t seen one set of grandparents for 12 months , the other set for 3 months now.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			What makes you think only 5m are at risk?
		
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I'm going by the top few groups they're hoping to have covered with the first batch of vaccinations. 

Obviously we all face a diminishing a out of risk.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			What's the alternative? Relying on the good graces of the public - When did that ever work?. Concerts full of older people could be a massacre if there are any infected people coughing.

Just last week, I heard of a vaccination clinic where a person came in, was asked if they had any symptoms of Covid or had been tested, said no, then while sitting in the waiting room was recognised by one of the GPs as having had a positive test 2 days before. Admitted this but said they wanted the  anyway, but everyone else in the waiting room now exposed, clinic closed and everyone sent home to self isolate including staff who did not have PPE. Deep clean needed on waiting room. Dozens of people inconvenienced and put at risk by one thoughtless idiot.
		
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That’s shocking but dosnt surprise me.
People are very selfish or just stupid or both.
There going to need a system that can’t be cheated .
No idea what that is , but the general public are experts at bypassing things like QR codes etc.
Identity smart cards might but might not.
Time will tell.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			No I’m just asking the question.
It’s not as if everyone has been sticking to the lockdown rules is it?
But if you don’t have a smart phone ( lots don’t ) what then?
		
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Then you get one. 

That's really not a difficult thing to do. Yes for some they may be a little tricky. But it's something that's easy enough to apapt to.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			Then you get one.

That's really not a difficult thing to do. Yes for some they may be a little tricky. But it's something that's easy enough to apapt to.
		
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Tricky?..
Think that’s an understatement!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 16, 2021)

Slime said:



			The govt. shouldn't have done that.
The govt. should have done this.
I'm just so happy I don't have to make the decisions.



Hindsight ......................................... ain't it just AWESOME!
		
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However even with hindsight the approach isn't changed much?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

Reemul said:



			You have no idea how many families rely on grandparents, it's massive, from school collections to looking after the grand kids so parents can work and so on.

You put up some reasonable points and then continually ruining it by showing your true colours with the statement above which actually shows you have no idea how Grandparents and support works for millions of people which again shows your thoughts are based around your perception and not the bigger picture regardless of what you put out on here at times.

There are 15.5 million people over 60  and nearly 9 million over 70. As said even if we tried it we cannot isolate 15 million people successfully.

Some of you really are ignorant, there is a massive amount of elderly who support their family and have no choice in the matter, single parents who have to work, couple who are both in low paid work that cannot afford to pay for child care and so on. I know you might not be affected by that but there is a very large amount of people who have no choice. Around 40% of pic ups at my sons school are grand parents. It's even more at my wifes school.

We have unfortunately become a society where both parents need to work and so many are poorly paid that the only way they can manage is with the help of grand parents, it's not like a choice it's a must have to and however unpalatable that is it is true and does not disappear just because you want it to.
		
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Even with all of that. We could still move to a system whereby we maintain the lockdown rules for everyone who is in consistent contact with someone in a high risk group. 

That of course that would depend on society policing themselves. And I'm sure for everyone that would behave, there would be the parents who rely on grandparents still willing to pop over for coffee with a friend.


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Tricky?..
Think that’s an understatement!
		
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I'm sorry but if you are coherent enough to go to concert whereby you have probably bought tickets online, tapped your card to pay. You can use a smart phone. 

You can get basic ones. If a child of barely a year old can learn how to use one then so can the most stubborn of older people.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			I'm going by the top few groups they're hoping to have covered with the first batch of vaccinations.

Obviously we all face a diminishing a out of risk.
		
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That may be most of the risk of death group, but it is not all, nor is it the risk of serious chronic disease or complications group. And even if you recover completely, I am not sure a stay in the ICU with a tube down your trachea will be a fond memory.

Vaccination is also not just to protect individuals, it is to protect those to whom you might transmit. Schools now routinely offer HPV vaccine to boys. This offers them no personal protection, but offers protection against cervical cancer to women they later, ahem, mate with.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 16, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			I'm sorry but if you are coherent enough to go to concert whereby you have probably bought tickets online, tapped your card to pay. You can use a smart phone.

You can get basic ones. If a child of barely a year old can learn how to use one then so can the most stubborn of older people.
		
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I bought my dad a ticket for a show years ago .
But if he had needed a smartphone to get in I would not have bothered.
He still hid his money under the carpets as he didn’t trust banks.
Not all older people are tech savvy.
He had dementia,I was taking him to a concert to see if it revived any memories.
That’s why I asked the question what if you don’t/ can’t use a smartphone.??
I am not saying it won’t work for the vast majority it will.
But there are exceptions. What do they do?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I bought my dad a ticket for a show years ago .
But if he had needed a smartphone to get in I would not have bothered.
He still hid his money under the carpets as he didn’t trust banks.
Not all older people are tech savvy.
He had dementia,I was taking him to a concert to see if it revived any memories.
That’s why I asked the question what if you don’t/ can’t use a smartphone.??
I am not saying it won’t work for the vast majority it will.
But there are exceptions. What do they do?
		
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I don't really see your point. 

If someone needs someone with them to help them, then they'd be able to operate the phone. 

If people simply don't trust the tech/vaccine then I revert to my prviosu standpoint. 

Ostarcise them until the make a choice.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I bought my dad a ticket for a show years ago .
But if he had needed a smartphone to get in I would not have bothered.
He still hid his money under the carpets as he didn’t trust banks.
Not all older people are tech savvy.
He had dementia,I was taking him to a concert to see if it revived any memories.
That’s why I asked the question what if you don’t/ can’t use a smartphone.??
I am not saying it won’t work for the vast majority it will.
But there are exceptions. What do they do?
		
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These days, mostly because of ticket touts and reseller sites, you need a ticket with your name on it. If vacc certs came in (and Govt has said it has no intention), then presumably you could print one off with a QR code and bring it along too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			How would we enforce that at say a rock concert.
We would all need a Central Database number that you would need to quote to buy tickets.
But we would just use someone else’s name.
I agree it needs to be done ,but the logistics would be a nightmare.
		
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I’ll note my experience when buying alcohol in Oz— where even as an obvious tourist some states demand proof of your identity and they check a database to see if you have any convictions that exclude you from buying alcohol.  No identity - they can’t check you on the database so no purchase.


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## Stuart_C (Jan 16, 2021)

A lad we played football with died of COVID yesterday aged 42, leaving a wife and kids. Heartbreaking.


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## drdel (Jan 16, 2021)

Anybody else think we are getting way off topic


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

Stuart_C said:



			A lad we played football with died of COVID yesterday aged 42, leaving a wife and kids. Heartbreaking.
		
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Sorry to hear that mate, condolences to his family and friends.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jan 16, 2021)

I said to my wife after the 1st lockdown that the big issue they would have when kids went back to school was inter generational mixing (Same at xmas). To prevent grandparents having to look after grandkids government should have rolled out extra provision for after school care so every child that needed it had a place. There are plenty of unused council facilities during the pandemic that could have been used, it would have needed funding and logistics but could have nipped a lot of spread into vulnerable groups in the bud.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I bought my dad a ticket for a show years ago .
But if he had needed a smartphone to get in I would not have bothered.
He still hid his money under the carpets as he didn’t trust banks.
Not all older people are tech savvy.
He had dementia,I was taking him to a concert to see if it revived any memories.
That’s why I asked the question what if you don’t/ can’t use a smartphone.??
I am not saying it won’t work for the vast majority it will.
But there are exceptions. What do they do?
		
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I've been mulling this one over, lockdown in January what else to do? I fully get your point, my mum is in the category of no computer, no smartphone, won't use contactless. With her it is a choice out of stubbornness, a badge of honour. If she had to use tech to do something she really wanted to do she could, she can just get away with it right now. A lot of people are in this group, the old golfers who absolutely couldn't book via brs or couldn't enter scores via a computer. When push comes to shove, ie you learn or you don't play, then miraculously they can manage. 

The category that really matter here are not the stubborn, sorry mum, but those genuinely not capable. The question is do we hold back opening up various venues, events etc simply because that group can not manage the tech? For me, no. That group are relatively small in reality and should not hold everyone else, or those venues or events back. Instead of waiting for the perfect system that works for everyone we start with a system, app, that works for 95%. Once that is up and running we then look at the work around for the remaining 5%. We don't exclude that group but neither can we hold back for ever.

My figures,  95%-5%, are just guesstimates in my head incidentally.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			Anybody else think we are getting way off topic
		
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The post above yours would suggest no, it’s affected Stu, one or 2 still have there agendas.but still it’s one of the most depressing topics on GM


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 16, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The post above yours would suggest no, it’s affected Stu, one or 2 still have there agendas.but still it’s one of the most depressing topics on GM
		
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Everything discussed today could massively effect all of us.


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## Piece (Jan 16, 2021)

My 87 yr old Dad had his vaccine today. It was the Oxford one I believe. Very well organise, credit to everyone involved.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Also what is the NHS going to do to make sure BAME communities take the vaccine? I saw a recent poll stated only 28% in such communities would take the vaccine, despite being at much higher risk.
		
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What should they do " to make sure they take it." 
Nothing for them to do. These refusers must live by their decision.
In fact, I would decline them access to where they might spread  Covid.
And why should NHS staff etc risk themselves treating these refusers.
Note , I am saying refusers. I'm not talking about those who can't take the vaccine, or missed it etc. I'm talking about out and out refusers.
No sympathy whatsoever.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What should they do " to make sure they take it."
Nothing for them to do. These refusers must live by their decision.
In fact, I would decline them access to where they might spread  Covid.
And why should NHS staff etc risk themselves treating these refusers.
Note , I am saying refusers. I'm not talking about those who can't take the vaccine, or missed it etc. I'm talking about out and out refusers.
No sympathy whatsoever.
		
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Saw a news article that a lot of muslims were under the impression the vaccine contained meat in its make-up and so weren't going to take it. The mosques and imams were supposedly using Friday prayer to get the message over that these vaccines are safe to take. Whether it has any effect remains to be seen


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So "locking away" everyone hasn't worked. We didn't implement the processes to stop the spread, we lost control.

Older people are still dying at a tragic rate, and everyone is "locked away". Hospitals are at breaking point with those high risk sections of society. People with minimal risk of hospitalisation from covid are dying due to missing other treatments, suicide etc.

A change of tact surely should be investigated. We can't contain the spread, we are in a perpetual cycle of lockdowns and then moderate normality.
		
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No, not everyone is locked away. Far from it. Idiots who are selfish and do what they want before any thought of doing what they should are the ones spreading this virus.
Not the old, who *are *in the main," locked away". 
Younger people who think the virus won't impact them.
And the irony is, it is impacting them . More of the younger section of society are going into I CU . That's because there are more of them being infected.
There is not , for some ne w reason, more younger ones in ICU, it's because there are many many more infections.
Today, I had a text from my Drs surgery exhorting me to stay home stay safe message. It started by saying. " Up to a third of people who get Covid have no symptoms and don't know they are spreading it."!!!
It's a stone cold certainty that most of those are younger people.
And , of course, it follows they would not have been tested and would not be part of the figures.
So, God knows how many positives there are out there.
Now, people are seeing the horrific figures and starting the usual blame game.
Now we are starting to blame the different age groups, and the way they are being or should be treated.
Alongside that it is blame the authorities game too.
We've become expert at the latter  in this Countryover the years, more so since the compensation culture started .
So why not do it for Covid.?
Truth is, if we had all done what we've been asked to do, things would have been far better.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 16, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Saw a news article that a lot of muslims were under the impression the vaccine contained meat in its make-up and so weren't going to take it. The mosques and imams were supposedly using Friday prayer to get the message over that these vaccines are safe to take. Whether it has any effect remains to be seen
		
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Yep they think it contains Pork....
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-55666407

I was horrified when I went past a mosque near Poplar High St on Friday at about 1pm, there must have been 200 people all squeezing through some double doors to get out, maybe half were wearing masks? Those that were outside were just standing around, shaking hands and chatting...absolutely crazy! I know religion is responsible for a lot of deaths but not this way!


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## drdel (Jan 16, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The post above yours would suggest no, it’s affected Stu, one or 2 still have there agendas.but still it’s one of the most depressing topics on GM
		
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Except for the many post above those that took several excursions into the 'right to life' or care based on age or economic productivity.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, not everyone is locked away. Far from it. Idiots who are selfish and do what they want before any thought of doing what they should are the ones spreading this virus.
Not the old, who *are *in the main," locked away".
*Younger people who think the virus won't impact them.*
And the irony is, it is impacting them . *More of the younger section of society are going into I CU . That's because there are more of them being infected.*
There is not , for some ne w reason, more younger ones in ICU, it's because there are many many more infections.
Today, I had a text from my Drs surgery exhorting me to stay home stay safe message. It started by saying. " Up to a third of people who get Covid have no symptoms and don't know they are spreading it."!!!
*It's a stone cold certainty that most of those are younger people*.
And , of course, it follows they would not have been tested and would not be part of the figures.
So, God knows how many positives there are out there.
Now, people are seeing the horrific figures and *starting the usual blame game.*
Now we are starting to blame the different age groups, and the way they are being or should be treated.
Alongside that it is blame the authorities game too.
We've become expert at the latter  in this Countryover the years, more so since the compensation culture started .
So why not do it for Covid.?
Truth is, if we had all done what we've been asked to do, things would have been far better.
		
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I just had to bold some of your post. I can't work out if you are blaming young people for the rise in hospitalisations, whilst complaining about people blaming others. Forgive me if I'm miles of the mark.

The average age of a covid patient has indeed gone down, from 60.2 to 58.8. It's hardly a dramatic drop, 1.4 years.

Edit: I'm not sure doing as we were told would have been enough. I'll get a holiday if I go more into it. But we were let down by those that decide, too late on almost everything. (Apart from vaccination, that seems to be going very well!)




drdel said:



			Except for the many post above those that took several excursions into the 'right to life' or care based on age or economic productivity.
		
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Thats me! In almost every other medical situation, assessment is made on quality of life/impact on society. In this situation hospitals are packed full of mainly more experienced people with covid. Younger people are having appointments cancelled because hospitals can't cope. I know it's an emotive subject, but it's not unreasonable to think something has to change.


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## road2ruin (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm not sure doing as we were told would have been enough. I'll get a holiday if I go more into it. But we were let down by those that decide, too late on almost everything.
		
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Correct IMO. Despite the attempts of the MSM to whip everyone up into a frenzy the general population has been adhering to the guidelines. There are always going to be a minority who either will not or cannot follow the rules however they aren’t nearly as large in number as the media (and possibly government) would like you to believe. 

The prevalence of the disease is almost solely down to the inaction and delayed action of those in charge. As mentioned early in the thread “hindsight is a wonderful thing” however the same mistakes keep being made and you cannot lay that at the feet of Bryan who wore a mask underneath his nose whilst getting a Bargain Bucket at KFC. 

Obviously the more transmissible variant hasn’t helped however not having the powers the be farting about would probably have been a start.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Correct IMO. Despite the attempts of the MSM to whip everyone up into a frenzy the general population has been adhering to the guidelines. There are always going to be a minority who either will not or cannot follow the rules however they aren’t nearly as large in number as the media (and possibly government) would like you to believe.

The prevalence of the disease is almost solely down to the inaction and delayed action of those in charge. As mentioned early in the thread “hindsight is a wonderful thing” however the same mistakes keep being made and you cannot lay that at the feet of Bryan who wore a mask underneath his nose whilst getting a Bargain Bucket at KFC.

Obviously the more transmissible variant hasn’t helped however not having the powers the be farting about would probably have been a start.
		
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Yes, perish the thought that the Great British public should be expected to assume any responsibility.

The minority that find it impossible to comply can't in any way be to blame for transmission surely!


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## road2ruin (Jan 16, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Yes, perish the thought that the Great British public should be expected to assume any responsibility.

The minority that find it impossible to comply can't in any way be to blame for transmission surely!
		
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Of course there is responsibility by the population and, in the main they have done was has been required. The minority have spread it of course but it is a welcome distraction for those who could and should have done something about it and had the power to do so.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Of course there is responsibility by the population and, in the main they have done was has been required. The minority have spread it of course but it is a welcome distraction for those who could and should have done something about it and had the power to do so.
		
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But if more stringent rules had been introduced (as I think should have been the case) would not the recalcitrant rump have been greater.

And, to make it clear, I have never thought that any age group has had a monopoly on "difficulty" in complying.


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## Hobbit (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Thats me! In almost every other medical situation, assessment is made on quality of life/impact on society. In this situation hospitals are packed full of mainly more experienced people with covid. Younger people are having appointments cancelled because hospitals can't cope. I know it's an emotive subject, but it's not unreasonable to think something has to change.
		
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And older people are too. Why do you want to withhold care from older people?

It is an emotive subject, and there is a finite limit to the resources available but there’s a fine line to be walked about who gets care.

Its a discussion that needs to be had but where do you set an age limit on who should be cared for? The answer should be there shouldn’t be a limit, just a different strategy.

Alternatively, let’s have a discussion on Nazi Eugenics. Blunt but we’re not a million miles away from that.


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## DanFST (Jan 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			And older people are too. Why do you want to withhold care from older people?

It is an emotive subject, and there is a finite limit to the resources available but there’s a fine line to be walked about who gets care.
		
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I don't want to withhold care from older people. 

I want older people to get more protection, so they aren't ending up in hospital. They need to pick up grandkids from school, no. Employers should be forced to work with parents, or subsidies given to allow one parent to stop working till the pandemic is over. They should have priority over delivery slots for food and essentials. If they need social care, a fully vaccinated and sterile social worker should check up on them. They need to get to hospital appointments, a sterile transfer should be given to them to save them getting a taxi. Those younger people who want to see those at risk should have a legal responsibility to follow the exact same tighter restrictions.

I haven't said anything of an age limit, but the current one size fits all approach isn't doing its job. Those who are "high risk" are in hospital in record numbers, a year after the initial outbreak. It's not good enough.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I just had to bold some of your post. I can't work out if you are blaming young people for the rise in hospitalisations, whilst complaining about people blaming others. Forgive me if I'm miles of the mark.

The average age of a covid patient has indeed gone down, from 60.2 to _*58.8*_. It's hardly a dramatic drop, 1.4 years.

Edit: I'm not sure doing as we were told would have been enough. I'll get a holiday if I go more into it. But we were let down by those that decide, too late on almost everything. (Apart from vaccination, that seems to be going very well!)




Thats me! In almost every other medical situation, assessment is made on quality of life/impact on society. In this situation hospitals are packed full of mainly more experienced people with covid. Younger people are having appointments cancelled because hospitals can't cope. I know it's an emotive subject, but it's not unreasonable to think something has to change.
		
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am 57 and 10/12ths or 58 in March that’s getting a little close for my comfort 😣


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## hovis (Jan 16, 2021)

A colleague died today of covid.  He was 44 with no health issues at all.  He was contacted via track and trace xmas eve and was administered to hospital a week ago.  He posted on Facebook yesterday that he's feeling better and would be out soon 😳.     Certainly made it hit home


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I don't want to withhold care from older people.

I want older people to get more protection, so they aren't ending up in hospital. They need to pick up grandkids from school, no. Employers should be forced to work with parents, or subsidies given to allow one parent to stop working till the pandemic is over. They should have priority over delivery slots for food and essentials. *If they need social care, a fully vaccinated and sterile social worker should check up on them.* They need to get to hospital appointments, a sterile transfer should be given to them to save them getting a taxi. Those younger people who want to see those at risk should have a legal responsibility to follow the exact same tighter restrictions.

I haven't said anything of an age limit, but the current one size fits all approach isn't doing its job. Those who are "high risk" are in hospital in record numbers, a year after the initial outbreak. It's not good enough.
		
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The problem with the bit in bold (as I understand it) is that they don't yet know if the vaccination prevents a person from getting the virus and passing it on to others. Possibly @Ethan will be able to confirm or correct this. If it is correct then there are too many interactions between the younger generation and the older generation to be able to isolate the vulnerable. 

As an example, Mrs Colch's mum is disabled an has a carer in twice a day to help with getting her up, washed and dressed and then the reverse in the evening. A few days ago we found out that the regular carer had tested positive for Covid. Mrs Colch's mum and dad are now both unwell and waiting for the results of their Covid tests. The carer has her son and daughter in law living with her and they contracted the virus and passed it to her. How can you possibly isolate or protect the elderly and vulnerable in that situation? They need the carer to go in each day. To protect Mrs Colch's parents the carer would have to also isolate, as would her son and daughter in law and also their children if they have any. It's just not possible to protect the elderly and vulnerable and let those less at risk go about their lives as normal. The links and interactions are just too numerous for it to work.


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## NearHull (Jan 16, 2021)

hovis said:



			A colleague died today of covid.  He was 44 with no health issues at all.  He was contacted via track and trace xmas eve and was administered to hospital a week ago.  He posted on Facebook yesterday that he's feeling better and would be out soon 😳.     Certainly made it hit home
		
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That is frightening.  It brings reality to some ‘sterile’ figures.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			The problem with the bit in bold (as I understand it) is that *they don't yet know if the vaccination prevents a person from getting the virus and passing it on to others. Possibly @Ethan will be able to confirm or correct this.* If it is correct then there are too many interactions between the younger generation and the older generation to be able to isolate the vulnerable.

As an example, Mrs Colch's mum is disabled an has a carer in twice a day to help with getting her up, washed and dressed and then the reverse in the evening. A few days ago we found out that the regular carer had tested positive for Covid. Mrs Colch's mum and dad are now both unwell and waiting for the results of their Covid tests. The carer has her son and daughter in law living with her and they contracted the virus and passed it to her. How can you possibly isolate or protect the elderly and vulnerable in that situation? They need the carer to go in each day. To protect Mrs Colch's parents the carer would have to also isolate, as would her son and daughter in law and also their children if they have any. It's just not possible to protect the elderly and vulnerable and let those less at risk go about their lives as normal. The links and interactions are just too numerous for it to work.
		
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Yes, or possibly no. We don't know yet, and it is quite hard to study, although most scientists believe that vacc must at least reduces transmission since it reduces or eliminates viral propagation and consequently the risk of spread by exhalation. You can still transfer it by touch and on inanimate objects, though. Govt is maintaining a line that vacc'd people must still observe the regulations, which is fair enough for now, since the social disorder of some people following and others not would be anarchy.


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## drdel (Jan 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I just had to bold some of your post. I can't work out if you are blaming young people for the rise in hospitalisations, whilst complaining about people blaming others. Forgive me if I'm miles of the mark.

The average age of a covid patient has indeed gone down, from 60.2 to 58.8. It's hardly a dramatic drop, 1.4 years.

Edit: I'm not sure doing as we were told would have been enough. I'll get a holiday if I go more into it. But we were let down by those that decide, too late on almost everything. (Apart from vaccination, that seems to be going very well!)




Thats me! In almost every other medical situation, assessment is made on quality of life/impact on society. In this situation hospitals are packed full of mainly more experienced people with covid. Younger people are having appointments cancelled because hospitals can't cope. I know it's an emotive subject, but it's not unreasonable to think something has to change.
		
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Well I for one am glad I live in the UK as I look at other countries with a similar population and population density i reckon we are doing OK.

No doubt those with the clarity of hindsight from watching the rear view mirrors can preach: there has been mistakes and more errors will be made -big deal we're human.

Thankfully the medics are true to their oath and the sanctity of ĺife.


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## Ethan (Jan 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			Well I for one am glad I live in the UK as I look at other countries with a similar population and population density i reckon we are doing OK.

No doubt those with the clarity of hindsight from watching the rear view mirrors can preach: there has been mistakes and more errors will be made -big deal we're human.

Thankfully the medics are true to their oath and the sanctity of ĺife.
		
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Which are the countries in comparison to whom we are doing OK?

Population density is over-rated as a factor. Even countries with an overall low pop density still have predominately urban populations. Sweden has a low pop density, but 85% still live in urban centres. The huge empty spaces don't matter. No risk where there are no people.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've been mulling this one over, lockdown in January what else to do? I fully get your point, my mum is in the category of no computer, no smartphone, won't use contactless. With her it is a choice out of stubbornness, a badge of honour. If she had to use tech to do something she really wanted to do she could, she can just get away with it right now. A lot of people are in this group, the old golfers who absolutely couldn't book via brs or couldn't enter scores via a computer. When push comes to shove, ie you learn or you don't play, then miraculously they can manage.

The category that really matter here are not the stubborn, sorry mum, but those genuinely not capable. The question is do we hold back opening up various venues, events etc simply because that group can not manage the tech? For me, no. That group are relatively small in reality and should not hold everyone else, or those venues or events back. Instead of waiting for the perfect system that works for everyone we start with a system, app, that works for 95%. Once that is up and running we then look at the work around for the remaining 5%. We don't exclude that group but neither can we hold back for ever.

My figures,  95%-5%, are just guesstimates in my head incidentally.
		
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This is mostly what I faced my dad just could not do this.
Obviously thing have to change but lots of people are going to be left behind.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 17, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			I don't really see your point.

If someone needs someone with them to help them, then they'd be able to operate the phone.

If people simply don't trust the tech/vaccine then I revert to my prviosu standpoint.

Ostarcise them until the make a choice.
		
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After the track and trace fiasco not sure about ostracising part of the public the tech is good but not foolproof.
We really don’t know the vaccine works yet. As the virus mutates we may need boosters every new strain.
I mainly agree anyone who refuses just for the sake of it yes .
But there will be people who can’t have it for lots of reasons medical, allergies etc.
what happens to them ? All ages not just old people.


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## bluewolf (Jan 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			And older people are too. Why do you want to withhold care from older people?

It is an emotive subject, and there is a finite limit to the resources available but there’s a fine line to be walked about who gets care.

Its a discussion that needs to be had but where do you set an age limit on who should be cared for? The answer should be there shouldn’t be a limit, just a different strategy.

Alternatively, let’s have a discussion on Nazi Eugenics. Blunt but we’re not a million miles away from that.
		
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I’d be more than happy to offer an immediate apology if you can point out where I stated that older (more at risk) people should have care withheld. That is not the system that I’m considering at all 👍


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## road2ruin (Jan 17, 2021)

Sat here in my tin foil hat worried that Bill Gates might be watching however thought I’d ask the question anyway. 

Throughout the pandemic there was always mention of the virus mutating and that there were likely to be 10’s of 1,000’s different variants. Largely this story didn’t make front page news and the general takeaway was that it’s a standard thing in the world of virus and it is unusual for a virus to become suddenly deadly etc. 

We’ve had no scary variants for 8 months, then scary ones from UK, South Africa and Brazil in the space of 4 weeks. This coincides with the vaccine roll out and the general fatigue amongst the population to follow the rules. 

“We need people to take the vaccine, we need people to follow guidance so let’s really start pushing the new variant angle to ensure compliance.”

Should we expect further ‘scary’ variants on a semi regular basis to keep people focussed?


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## DanFST (Jan 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Should we expect further ‘scary’ variants on a semi regular basis to keep people focussed?
		
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I'm inclined to agree, the Beeb the other day did 10 minutes on how patients are getting younger. avg age of hospitalisation has dropped from 60.4 to 58.8 since the start of the pandemic, so negligible. Followed with a few minutes of interview with a 19 year old in hospital saying "it can happen to anyone, it's horrible". 

The 19 year old was obese, sitting on a chair writing as normal, as he didn't need to be in bed. Wearing an oxygen mask that barely fit.


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## road2ruin (Jan 17, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm inclined to agree, the Beeb the other day did 10 minutes on how patients are getting younger. avg age of hospitalisation has dropped from 60.4 to 58.8 since the start of the pandemic, so negligible. Followed with a few minutes of interview with a 19 year old in hospital saying "it can happen to anyone, it's horrible".

The 19 year old was obese, sitting on a chair writing as normal, as he didn't need to be in bed. Wearing an oxygen mask that barely fit.
		
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I personally believe that a lot of the variants have been in the country for a fair while and probably were known about but it didn’t suit the narrative of that particular time to make it public.

If we go back to March last year lots of young people were dying, you couldn’t look at a newspaper without a seeing a fit and healthy 6yr old, 15yr old, 24yr old etc eto succumbing to the virus despite having no known health conditions. This did the trick and the first lockdown was welcomed and adhered to. As we got into the summer and restrictions where relaxed suddenly less young people were dying (or at least in public) as they wanted people out and spending money so scaring them didn’t suit the plan. Now we need to scare people again plus the added vaccine take up we have the scary variants and younger people dying again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Unlike yourself I dismiss no section of society or the economy.

I prefer to take a broader view that includes us all.
		
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You mean leveling up.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sat here in my tin foil hat worried that Bill Gates might be watching however thought I’d ask the question anyway.

Throughout the pandemic there was always mention of the virus mutating and that there were likely to be 10’s of 1,000’s different variants. Largely this story didn’t make front page news and the general takeaway was that it’s a standard thing in the world of virus and it is unusual for a virus to become suddenly deadly etc.

We’ve had no scary variants for 8 months, then scary ones from UK, South Africa and Brazil in the space of 4 weeks. This coincides with the vaccine roll out and the general fatigue amongst the population to follow the rules.

“We need people to take the vaccine, we need people to follow guidance so let’s really start pushing the new variant angle to ensure compliance.”

*Should we expect further ‘scary’ variants on a semi regular basis to keep people focussed?*

Click to expand...

I think you are right, it’s intended to stop people getting complacent... Dr on the radio last week when talking about all the variants and if the vaccine would work on them said “imagine I put on a purple wig, I would look a bit different but you would still recognise me” 
Silly I know but it reassured me.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sat here in my tin foil hat worried that Bill Gates might be watching however thought I’d ask the question anyway.

Throughout the pandemic there was always mention of the virus mutating and that there were likely to be 10’s of 1,000’s different variants. Largely this story didn’t make front page news and the general takeaway was that it’s a standard thing in the world of virus and it is unusual for a virus to become suddenly deadly etc.

We’ve had no scary variants for 8 months, then scary ones from UK, South Africa and Brazil in the space of 4 weeks. This coincides with the vaccine roll out and the general fatigue amongst the population to follow the rules.

“We need people to take the vaccine, we need people to follow guidance so let’s really start pushing the new variant angle to ensure compliance.”

Should we expect further ‘scary’ variants on a semi regular basis to keep people focussed?
		
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You don’t have a tinfoil hat https://assets.publishing.service.g...ce-to-social-distancing-measures-22032020.pdf


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## Ethan (Jan 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sat here in my tin foil hat worried that Bill Gates might be watching however thought I’d ask the question anyway.

Throughout the pandemic there was always mention of the virus mutating and that there were likely to be 10’s of 1,000’s different variants. Largely this story didn’t make front page news and the general takeaway was that it’s a standard thing in the world of virus and it is unusual for a virus to become suddenly deadly etc.

We’ve had no scary variants for 8 months, then scary ones from UK, South Africa and Brazil in the space of 4 weeks. This coincides with the vaccine roll out and the general fatigue amongst the population to follow the rules.

“We need people to take the vaccine, we need people to follow guidance so let’s really start pushing the new variant angle to ensure compliance.”

Should we expect further ‘scary’ variants on a semi regular basis to keep people focussed?
		
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Reports in the scientific literature suggest there are approximately 17,000 variants around. Most of the differences are unimportant but every now and then one developed by random chance that has an evolutionary advantage, so it grows in number. There will undoubtedly be more. 

The new variant was not magiced up by Govt to justify change in policy, but it was conveniently used even to justify belated action even though it had been known about for some time. The line that Govt heard about it on Thursday and acted on Friday is untrue. I heard it discussed 2 months previously on a medical site. It may not have been fully sequenced then, but that is not needed for action, and the call to have a circuit break, which went ignored, was based on concern about this variant.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 17, 2021)

Personally I don’t see the new scarier contagious strain of Covid as a way of making me comply Even more. Nothing has changed from day one. Covid kills end of story. 
What does make me focus is listening to drs, nurses, those within the NHS that are on the front line and have no political or other agenda. other than save lives. Those that after this Covid has finished will have many sleepless nights seeing multiple deaths on a daily basis. 
Re quoting obese 19 yr olds in hospital. Maybe A few “ young uns” need to look in the mirror because if obesity is a killer, in a country that is rammed with obesity, it’s more than just young uns.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 17, 2021)

At least that's a plan to work to, be nice if we could get out in march to the tiers 

If then the tiers could phase out by the summer then would be even better


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 34530


At least that's a plan to work to, be nice if we could get out in march to the tiers

If then the tiers could phase out by the summer then would be even better
		
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I think that was always what they planned when they said they would look at school after Feb Half term

Schools will open back up on 22nd Feb , 7 days later the Tier system will start with most in Tier 2 with the high numbers in a Tier 3 - the same as after November and things will be reduce from there with Tiers gone by May - that’s if the numbers go the way it’s starting to and the vaccine program keeps going 

By June we will be back to sort of normal with the odd restriction in IMO


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## Ethan (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think that was always what they planned when they said they would look at school after Feb Half term

Schools will open back up on 22nd Feb , 7 days later the Tier system will start with most in Tier 2 with the high numbers in a Tier 3 - the same as after November and things will be reduce from there with Tiers gone by May - that’s if the numbers go the way it’s starting to and the vaccine program keeps going

By June we will be back to sort of normal with the odd restriction in IMO
		
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Maybe. There are a few dips in the vaccine supply plan, shoulda bought some Moderna sooner, but maybe Johnson and Johnson will save the day, so we'll see how the vaccination rolls out.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think that was always what they planned when they said they would look at school after Feb Half term

Schools will open back up on 22nd Feb , 7 days later the Tier system will start with most in Tier 2 with the high numbers in a Tier 3 - the same as after November and things will be reduce from there with Tiers gone by May - that’s if the numbers go the way it’s starting to and the vaccine program keeps going 

By June we will be back to sort of normal with the odd restriction in IMO
		
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Anything is better than lockdown, and its nice to see light at the end 

Yeah we write off 18 months of normal life but hey other generations have had worse


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 17, 2021)

Got a phone call at 1-30 this morning from Mrs Colch's dad to say that the ambulance was there and both her parents were being taken in to hospital. Have spoken to the hospital this morning and both are now on oxygen having tested positive for Covid. Now just a waiting game to see what happens as neither of them are in the best of health anyway.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Got a phone call at 1-30 this morning from Mrs Colch's dad to say that the ambulance was there and both her parents were being taken in to hospital. Have spoken to the hospital this morning and both are now on oxygen having tested positive for Covid. Now just a waiting game to see what happens as neither of them are in the best of health anyway.
		
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thoughts with you and Missis C


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## bluewolf (Jan 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Got a phone call at 1-30 this morning from Mrs Colch's dad to say that the ambulance was there and both her parents were being taken in to hospital. Have spoken to the hospital this morning and both are now on oxygen having tested positive for Covid. Now just a waiting game to see what happens as neither of them are in the best of health anyway.
		
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Very sorry to read this. Hope they both get better soon 👍


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 17, 2021)

The 30-stone plus woman sitting in a wheelchair outside Tesco's smoking, having a go at someone for not wearing their mask properly.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Got a phone call at 1-30 this morning from Mrs Colch's dad to say that the ambulance was there and both her parents were being taken in to hospital. Have spoken to the hospital this morning and both are now on oxygen having tested positive for Covid. Now just a waiting game to see what happens as neither of them are in the best of health anyway.
		
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All the best mate🤞


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Got a phone call at 1-30 this morning from Mrs Colch's dad to say that the ambulance was there and both her parents were being taken in to hospital. Have spoken to the hospital this morning and both are now on oxygen having tested positive for Covid. Now just a waiting game to see what happens as neither of them are in the best of health anyway.
		
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Fingers crossed for the best outcome mate.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

Went for a walk, the other day, along the river a few hundred yards from my house.
BIG mistake.
It seemed to be a cross between a narrow athletics track and a single lane velodrome.
Walkers seemed to be virtually invisible!
90% of the runners/cyclists just expected walkers to stand aside, assuming there was enough room to do so safely.
It got me thinking about safety, in all it's guises, to keep the NHS workload as low as possible during Covid.
Cyclist should always have to wear a safety hat, always, and should always wear a mask when cycling off road, i.e. where walkers are likely to be.
Runners should also have to wear a mask when running along busy paths or pavements.
Recreational horse riding should not be allowed.
Thoughts?

Best wishes and hopes to Mrs Colch's family.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 17, 2021)

Why masks for Runners and Cyclists? I thought initially (don’t know if it’s changed) the advice was to avoid closer than 1-2 metres for 15 minutes or more?

Surely there’s more risk walking downwind from someone for that period than running or cycling?


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Went for a walk, the other day, along the river a few hundred yards from my house.
BIG mistake.
It seemed to be a cross between a narrow athletics track and a single lane velodrome.
Walkers seemed to be virtually invisible!
90% of the runners/cyclists just expected walkers to stand aside, assuming there was enough room to do so safely.
It got me thinking about safety, in all it's guises, to keep the NHS workload as low as possible during Covid.
Cyclist should always have to wear a safety hat, always, and should always wear a mask when cycling off road, i.e. where walkers are likely to be.
Runners should also have to wear a mask when running along busy paths or pavements.
Recreational horse riding should not be allowed.
Thoughts?

Best wishes and hopes to Mrs Colch's family.
		
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No they shouldn’t wear masks when cycling. they should just walk and ideally on pavements. Nearly mowed down several cyclists and a set of walkers on the way from work seemingly in the middle of the road. Seems to be a popular place for these new exercising zombies.

Enough ranting. WHO does not recommend masks for exercise.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 17, 2021)

Why should recreational horse riding be banned?


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



*Why masks for Runners and Cyclists?* I thought initially (don’t know if it’s changed) the advice was to avoid closer than 1-2 metres for 15 minutes or more?

Surely there’s more risk walking downwind from someone for that period than running or cycling?
		
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Because where I was walking, trying to keep it local, they brush past along a narrow tow path whilst breathing extremely heavily.
Surely that increases the risk of firing a nasty virus a whole lot farther.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Why should recreational horse riding be banned?
		
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I'm only suggesting banning during this current Covid crisis.
Statistically it is 20 times more dangerous than motor cycling.
Surely, whilst the NHS is flat out dealing with Covid, stopping this dangerous activity would be a good thing.
You'd be staggered at how many A&E patients began the day on a horse.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Because where I was walking, trying to keep it local, they brush past along a narrow tow path whilst breathing extremely heavily.
Surely that increases the risk of firing a nasty virus a whole lot farther.
		
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Sounds like more the attitude of the cyclists that is the problem rather than the need for a mask


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Sounds like more the attitude of the cyclists that is the problem rather than the need for a mask
		
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Maybe, but that ain't gonna change.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Maybe, but that ain't gonna change.
		
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Neither is them wearing a mask if their attitude is that they can just push past people on a path.


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## Ethan (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Went for a walk, the other day, along the river a few hundred yards from my house.
BIG mistake.
It seemed to be a cross between a narrow athletics track and a single lane velodrome.
Walkers seemed to be virtually invisible!
90% of the runners/cyclists just expected walkers to stand aside, assuming there was enough room to do so safely.
It got me thinking about safety, in all it's guises, to keep the NHS workload as low as possible during Covid.
Cyclist should always have to wear a safety hat, always, and should always wear a mask when cycling off road, i.e. where walkers are likely to be.
Runners should also have to wear a mask when running along busy paths or pavements.
Recreational horse riding should not be allowed.
Thoughts?

Best wishes and hopes to Mrs Colch's family.
		
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I think what you are describing is more rudeness than infection hazard. Outside, the risk of transmission is low, particularly with fleeting contact. Some of the talk about mandating masks outside is really intended to reinforce good make culture inside where it really matters.


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## fundy (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Went for a walk, the other day, along the river a few hundred yards from my house.
BIG mistake.
It seemed to be a cross between a narrow athletics track and a single lane velodrome.
Walkers seemed to be virtually invisible!
90% of the runners/cyclists just expected walkers to stand aside, assuming there was enough room to do so safely.
It got me thinking about safety, in all it's guises, to keep the NHS workload as low as possible during Covid.
Cyclist should always have to wear a safety hat, always, and should always wear a mask when cycling off road, i.e. where walkers are likely to be.
Runners should also have to wear a mask when running along busy paths or pavements.
Recreational horse riding should not be allowed.
*Thoughts?*

Best wishes and hopes to Mrs Colch's family.
		
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Think you should walk somewhere else rather than trying to create rules for all cyclists, runners and horse riders based on your assessment of one narrow riverside path


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## AmandaJR (Jan 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Got a phone call at 1-30 this morning from Mrs Colch's dad to say that the ambulance was there and both her parents were being taken in to hospital. Have spoken to the hospital this morning and both are now on oxygen having tested positive for Covid. Now just a waiting game to see what happens as neither of them are in the best of health anyway.
		
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Oh so sorry to hear that - hopefully they'll come through this.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Went for a walk, the other day, along the river a few hundred yards from my house.
BIG mistake.
It seemed to be a cross between a narrow athletics track and a single lane velodrome.
Walkers seemed to be virtually invisible!
90% of the runners/cyclists just expected walkers to stand aside, assuming there was enough room to do so safely.
It got me thinking about safety, in all it's guises, to keep the NHS workload as low as possible during Covid.
Cyclist should always have to wear a safety hat, always, and should always wear a mask when cycling off road, i.e. where walkers are likely to be.
Runners should also have to wear a mask when running along busy paths or pavements.
Recreational horse riding should not be allowed.
Thoughts?

Best wishes and hopes to Mrs Colch's family.
		
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one of teh biggest annoyances of the past year is the amount of people buzzing past on pavements on bikes and electric scooters. I have lost track of the amount of times that if have nearly be knocked over and caught off guard but they are an absolute mennace. But no issue with wearing masks - i don't think they are needed at all outside if reasonable social distancing is observed


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			I'm only suggesting banning during this current Covid crisis.
Statistically it is 20 times more dangerous than motor cycling.
Surely, whilst the NHS is flat out dealing with Covid, stopping this dangerous activity would be a good thing.
You'd be staggered at how many A&E patients began the day on a horse.
		
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I think you may find that the only comparison of relative dangers (casualty and injury rates) is of different sports e.g. horse racing v motor cycle racing. 

That is completely different from recreational horse riding.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			I'm only suggesting banning during this current Covid crisis.
Statistically it is 20 times more dangerous than motor cycling.
Surely, whilst the NHS is flat out dealing with Covid, stopping this dangerous activity would be a good thing.
You'd be staggered at how many A&E patients began the day on a horse.
		
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You are perhaps overlooking the fact that the horse needs exercise ?  Which you do by riding them.  On the other hand, a narrow towpath, is not really the place to do it, especially if it is busy with other different users.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I’d be more than happy to offer an immediate apology if you can point out where I stated that older (more at risk) people should have care withheld. That is not the system that I’m considering at all 👍
		
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Sorry but did I quote your post? Are you really that sensitive that you feel that someone else's responses are aimed at you? Seriously, lets get away from this sort of stupidity.

C'mon Danny this goes way beyond political preferences. There's really only three responses. Mask, space etc. Do we really need to turn this into what who should respon.... you know what, this forum needs to grow some BALLS. Forget which party has the right answer, covid couldn't give a monkeys!!! Wash your hands!!! Its that simple.

Honestly I see idiots, ex-electricians etc tell me what we should do. The reality is quite simple. If you're an expert in electricity or whatever, listen to those who are experts in what matters!!!!!!!!!!!!  If you're not an an expert on virology or epidimilogy shut up.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

fundy said:



			Think you should walk somewhere else rather than trying to create rules for all cyclists, runners and horse riders based on your assessment of one narrow riverside path
		
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Just trying to stay local, that's what we're asked to do.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Personally I don’t see the new scarier contagious strain of Covid as a way of making me comply Even more. Nothing has changed from day one. Covid kills end of story.
What does make me focus is listening to drs, nurses, those within the NHS that are on the front line and have no political or other agenda. other than save lives. Those that after this Covid has finished will have many sleepless nights seeing multiple deaths on a daily basis.
Re quoting obese 19 yr olds in hospital. Maybe A few “ young uns” need to look in the mirror because if obesity is a killer, in a country that is rammed with obesity, it’s more than just young uns.
		
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Jeez, sober up and focus on posting something sensible ----- p off. Seriously Tashy. your crap isn't helping!!


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Personally I don’t see the new scarier contagious strain of Covid as a way of making me comply Even more. Nothing has changed from day one. Covid kills end of story.
What does make me focus is listening to drs, nurses, those within the NHS that are on the front line and have no political or other agenda. other than save lives. Those that after this Covid has finished will have many sleepless nights seeing multiple deaths on a daily basis.
Re quoting obese 19 yr olds in hospital. Maybe A few “ young uns” need to look in the mirror because if obesity is a killer, in a country that is rammed with obesity, it’s more than just young uns.
		
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Jeez, sober up and focus on posting something sensible -----or p off. Seriously Tashy, your crap isn't helping!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Personally I don’t see the new scarier contagious strain of Covid as a way of making me comply Even more. Nothing has changed from day one. Covid kills end of story.
What does make me focus is listening to drs, nurses, those within the NHS that are on the front line and have no political or other agenda. other than save lives. Those that after this Covid has finished will have many sleepless nights seeing multiple deaths on a daily basis.
Re quoting obese 19 yr olds in hospital. Maybe A few “ young uns” need to look in the mirror because if obesity is a killer, in a country that is rammed with obesity, it’s more than just young uns.
		
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Your holier than thou attitude is shocking when you consider your attitude at the start of the pandemic and your actions jetting off on your holiday when it was clear something was happening


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## Old Skier (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			I'm only suggesting banning during this current Covid crisis.
Statistically it is 20 times more dangerous than motor cycling.
Surely, whilst the NHS is flat out dealing with Covid, stopping this dangerous activity would be a good thing.
You'd be staggered at how many A&E patients began the day on a horse.
		
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No—- send HID out everyday to fetch the droppings from the back land for the garden


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## bluewolf (Jan 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but did I quote your post? Are you really that sensitive that you feel that someone else's responses are aimed at you? Seriously, lets get away from this sort of stupidity.

C'mon Danny this goes way beyond political preferences. There's really only three responses. Mask, space etc. Do we really need to turn this into what who should respon.... you know what, this forum needs to grow some BALLS. Forget which party has the right answer, covid couldn't give a sh!t!!!! Wash your hands!!! Its that simple.

Honestly I see idiots, ex-electricians etc tell me what we should do. The reality is quite simple. If you're an expert in electricity or whatever, listen to those who are experts in what matters!!!!!!!!!!!!  If you're not an an expert on virology or epidimilogy shut the 'uck up.
		
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No, you didn’t. But the discussion had 2 distinct sides, and I was tentatively on one of them. And in all honesty, there was definitely some misrepresentation of the options being discussed. I don’t recall anyone suggesting that care should be withheld from anyone else. I was considering one option, which was to shield the most vulnerable groups, whilst opening up Society to those at lower risk. 
I thought it was a discussion worth having on here. If people don’t want to discuss that, then don’t 👍
With regards to listening to experts. I fully agree. Absolutely. Remove politics completely.


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## Old Skier (Jan 17, 2021)

fundy said:



			Think you should walk somewhere else rather than trying to create rules for all cyclists, runners and horse riders based on your assessment of one narrow riverside path
		
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Theres as many problems with walkers as there is with cyclists, my biggest moan is that so many cyclists these days don’t seem to have a bell and thing that slowing down is an insult to their masculinity. There’s room for everyone but a bit of politness would go amiss.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 17, 2021)

Sober up or p*** off. Cheers Hobbit. Sat here feeling knackered the after effects of Covid and am replying to some folk that think Certain aspects of Covid is a scare story. Replying to what some have quoted without telling them to p off. 

try focusing on writing something sensible without telling them to p off.

Have a nice day.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			No, you didn’t. But the discussion had 2 distinct sides, and I was tentatively on one of them. And in all honesty, there was definitely some misrepresentation of the options being discussed. I don’t recall anyone suggesting that care should be withheld from anyone else. I was considering one option, which was to shield the most vulnerable groups, whilst opening up Society to those at lower risk.
I thought it was a discussion worth having on here. If people don’t want to discuss that, then don’t 👍
With regards to listening to experts. I fully agree. Absolutely. Remove politics completely.
		
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I think Danfst isn’t a million miles away from the right answer but is being very clumsy, nor are you, I just feel we all need to get the language right.

 Maybe this is an in the pub discussion.


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## bluewolf (Jan 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I think Danfst isn’t a million miles away from the right answer but is being very clumsy, nor are you, I just feel we all need to get the language right.

Maybe this is an in the pub discussion.
		
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Over several glasses of red mate 👍
And then several more.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 17, 2021)

Guys
Let’s just take a few to calm down 
It’s an emotive subject that affects everyone and it’s a Sunday and I’m sure some have had a snifter already (I have)

Let’s take 5 and come back with the anger abated, this is a place to vent and to shout and to cry

The Rev Fragger has spoken 👍


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## bluewolf (Jan 17, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys
Let’s just take a few to calm down
It’s an emotive subject that affects everyone and it’s a Sunday and I’m sure some have had a snifter already (I have)

Let’s take 5 and come back with the anger abated, this is a place to vent and to shout and to cry

The Rev Fragger has spoken 👍
		
Click to expand...

I’m offended by your response Phil. I’ve not had a drink since 2020 and it’s now all I can think of 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Went for a walk, the other day, along the river a few hundred yards from my house.
BIG mistake.
It seemed to be a cross between a narrow athletics track and a single lane velodrome.
Walkers seemed to be virtually invisible!
90% of the runners/cyclists just expected walkers to stand aside, assuming there was enough room to do so safely.
It got me thinking about safety, in all it's guises, to keep the NHS workload as low as possible during Covid.
Cyclist should always have to wear a safety hat, always, and should always wear a mask when cycling off road, i.e. where walkers are likely to be.
Runners should also have to wear a mask when running along busy paths or pavements.
Recreational horse riding should not be allowed.
Thoughts?

Best wishes and hopes to Mrs Colch's family.
		
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That appears to be a rude attitude from runners and cyclists that you prob would have seen before Covid anyway 

A runner and a cyclist will always expect someone to move aside mainly because of the pace they are going at and it’s easier for someone walking to change direction or move aside 

Not sure why runners and cyclists should wear masks and what’s wrong with someone riding a horse ? 

I think sometimes people just want everyone to be locked up inside 24/7


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

Where are we in southern Spain at present? Locally we’re in lockdown. The village is in a good place but everywhere is toast., hence we can’t travel.

 So where am I with this? A daughter who is going blind, and has an MS diagnosis. A daughter who’s new born son has just had an emergency operation. A daughter who has just had COVID and who’s 7 months baby has stopped growing.

You know what. The snowflakes amongst you need to ........ to grow up. You really haven’t got a clue What real pressure is.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A runner and a cyclist will always expect someone to move aside mainly because of the pace they are going at and it’s easier for someone walking to change direction or move aside
		
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The irony being here that they expect vehicles to stop instantaniously the moment they breath on the kerb stone to cross the road, whether at a crossing or not.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 17, 2021)

Post from new forest police on fb today, car parks rammed, people questioned as to why they were there, some had travelled from as far as Guildford. You honestly couldnt make it up


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## fundy (Jan 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Post from new forest police on fb today, car parks rammed, people questioned as to why they were there, some had travelled from as far as Guildford. You honestly couldnt make it up 

Click to expand...

Come down from Birmingham to the beach at Mudeford to day on all accounts


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 17, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Over several glasses of red mate 👍
And then several more.
		
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Count me in 😁


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## fundy (Jan 17, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			The irony being here that they expect vehicles to stop instantaniously the moment they breath on the kerb stone to cross the road, whether at a crossing or not.
		
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maybe where you are, try that round here and youre more likely to be run down by the invincible people in their big metal boxes who think they own the place than them to stop


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## SaintHacker (Jan 17, 2021)

fundy said:



			Come down from Birmingham to the beach at Mudeford to day on all accounts
		
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Its mental. If only we knew someone looking for work that could build a big wall...


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



*That appears to be a rude attitude from runners and cyclists that you prob would have seen before Covid anyway*

A runner and a cyclist will always expect someone to move aside mainly because of the pace they are going at and it’s easier for someone walking to change direction or move aside

Not sure why runners and cyclists should wear masks and *what’s wrong with someone riding a horse *?

I think sometimes people just want everyone to be locked up inside 24/7
		
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That's true enough, it's just that there are far more of them right now.
It's bloody dangerous and hospitals are flat out at the moment dealing with Covid.
I'm not after banning it permanently, just whilst all this Covid is taking up all our NHS' resources and time.
People are able to forego golf, football and many other sources of enjoyment that are far less hazardous than riding a horse. Surely they can stop for a few weeks. It would be for the greater good.


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

drive4show said:



			Count me in 😁
		
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Seriously, get over here guys! The wine is in the fridge. You’d love the food, and a good bottle of wine is only 1. 35 euros.....


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## SteveW86 (Jan 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Post from new forest police on fb today, car parks rammed, people questioned as to why they were there, some had travelled from as far as Guildford. You honestly couldnt make it up 

Click to expand...

But the sun was out and it was a nice day....that makes it ok right? 🤔🤔


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			That's true enough, it's just that there are far more of them right now.
It's bloody dangerous and hospitals are flat out at the moment dealing with Covid.
I'm not after banning it permanently, just whilst all this Covid is taking up all our NHS' resources and time.
People are able to forego golf, football and many other sources of enjoyment that are far less hazardous than riding a horse. Surely they can stop for a few weeks. It would be for the greater good.

Click to expand...

Ban people running and cycling ?! 

If we ban everything that can be dangerous you might as well just sit in an empty room and pray


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

So what did we do today? we spoke to one our very favourite restaurants and asked if they could do a special ’day’.

 A full Sunday lunch with all the trimmings for 6 people. No one else in there...


Perfect!!

And several bottles of wine in the beer garden....tomorrow sees full lockdown...... that’s the life we have... enjoy


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## SteveW86 (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ban people running and cycling ?!

If we ban everything that can be dangerous you might as well just sit in an empty room and pray
		
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I think he meant ban horse riding.

I think a lot of people who are running at the minute aren’t normally runners. I’ve never been into running, but have found myself running 3 times a week and walking in the other days just to get some fresh air and movement in my legs. I imagine there are a lot of people doing the same.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			That's true enough, it's just that there are far more of them right now.
It's bloody dangerous and hospitals are flat out at the moment dealing with Covid.
I'm not after banning it permanently, just whilst all this Covid is taking up all our NHS' resources and time.
People are able to forego golf, football and many other sources of enjoyment that are far less hazardous than riding a horse. Surely they can stop for a few weeks. It would be for the greater good.

Click to expand...

You still have not shown where the great danger is in recreational horse riding. 

In the absence of an answer I will have to  assume that you have nothing to support your claim.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ban people running and cycling ?!

If we ban everything that can be dangerous you might as well just sit in an empty room and pray
		
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No. Ban people riding. 
Sorry, but I thought I made that clear.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			No. Ban people riding.
Sorry, but I thought I made that clear.
		
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Again,why?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Seriously, get over here guys! The wine is in the fridge. You’d love the food, and a good bottle of wine is only 1. 35 euros.....
		
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Now that I'm retired I will seriously consider it. Had an invite from richart to his place over there too. Once the world gets back to normal......... 👍


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			You still have not shown where the great danger is in recreational horse riding.

In the absence of an answer I will have to  assume that you have nothing to support your claim.
		
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I've recently learned that it's twenty times more dangerous than motor cycling!
That was directly from a paramedic.
You haven't read my earlier post, post #14560.


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## NearHull (Jan 17, 2021)

In the Telegraph tonight.
Almost a third of recovered Covid patients return to hospital in five months and one in eight die
Research has found a devastating long-term toll on survivors, with people developing heart problems, diabetes and chronic conditions

I thought this article was worth highlighting.  I find it very worrying. (Apologies for the large font, I can’t seem to reduce it ).


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Again,why?
		
Click to expand...

Why do you think?
Maybe it's because people fall off horses?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Why do you think?
Maybe it's because people fall off horses?
		
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You really haven't got a clue what you're talking about, have you.

Anecdotal from one paramedic.

Far more pedestrians get knocked down walking down country lanes. Perhaps we should ban that.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Where are we in southern Spain at present? Locally we’re in lockdown. The village is in a good place but everywhere is toast., hence we can’t travel.

So where am I with this? A daughter who is going blind, and has an MS diagnosis. A daughter who’s new born son has just had an emergency operation. A daughter who has just had COVID and who’s 7 months baby has stopped growing.

You know what. The snowflakes amongst you need to ........ to grow up. You really haven’t got a clue What real pressure is.
		
Click to expand...

I hope 2021 brings you and your family some relief: all the best


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

Maybe I’m missing something obvious but doesn’t the virus only transmit by a n other person being in close proximity? So if we remove the close proximity thing what are we left with?

With 2 million dead and rising shouldn’t this be a decider?

There’s masks and there’s lockdown. If we ignore those what we actually looking at achieving?

you guys are intelligent to know the answer


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## PieMan (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ban people running and cycling ?!

If we ban everything that can be dangerous you might as well just sit in an empty room and pray
		
Click to expand...

👍

I run and I cycle. I run either very early in the morning; or later in the evening when not many people are around. If I know I'm going to pass someone I run onto the road and make sure I'm nowhere near them. 

When I cycle I'm on my road bike, so as the name suggests, I'm cycling on the road! As such nowhere near walkers on the pavement. 

You cannot ban running and cycling where they could be people's only form of exercise.

However you do get runners and cyclists using paths, pavements and tracks used predominately by walkers and they are not considerate to the walkers. This is wrong in my opinion and as such perhaps those responsible for these, such as landowners, local authorities etc, could possibly put signs up saying that walkers have priority use.

It's a difficult one to resolve.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			I've recently learned that it's twenty times more dangerous than motor cycling!
That was directly from a paramedic.
You haven't read my earlier post, post #14560.
		
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Do you have any figures to back this up?


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## Hobbit (Jan 17, 2021)

NearHull said:



			In the Telegraph tonight.
Almost a third of recovered Covid patients return to hospital in five months and one in eight die
Research has found a devastating long-term toll on survivors, with people developing heart problems, diabetes and chronic conditions

I thought this article was worth highlighting.  I find it very worrying. (Apologies for the large font, I can’t seem to reduce it ).
		
Click to expand...

our friend’s youngest is 21. Had it in April. Seriously ill with it again. He was mega ill in April, ending up with cavatating pnuemona... let’s hope it doesn’t amount to anything ....


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## NearHull (Jan 17, 2021)

As the Telegraph article is behind a pay wall. Here is the essence of the article.

Almost a third of recovered Covid patients will end up back in hospital within five months and one in eight will die, alarming new figures have shown.

Research by Leicester University and the Office for National Statistics (ONS) found there is a devastating long-term toll on survivors of severe coronavirus, with many people developing heart problems, diabetes and chronic liver and kidney conditions. 

Out of 47,780 people who were discharged from hospital in the first wave, 29.4 per cent were readmitted to hospital within 140 days, and 12.3 per cent of the total died.

The current cut-off point for recording Covid deaths is 28 days after a positive test, so it may mean thousands more people should be included in the coronavirus death statistics.


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## drdel (Jan 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe I’m missing something obvious but doesn’t the virus only transmit by a n other person being in close proximity? So if we remove the close proximity thing what are we left with?

With 2 million dead and rising shouldn’t this be a decider?

There’s masks and there’s lockdown. If we ignore those what we actually looking at achieving?

you guys are intelligent to know the answer
		
Click to expand...

You would have thought that in a civilised country like the UK the meaning of 'highly infectious ' would not need explanation and that care òver personal hygiene and reduced socialising would be understood.

Unfortunately we insist on denying expert opinion and react when politicians introduce common sense and reinforce the dangers.

Even this thread has shown that, rather than stick to the theme, it quickly just degenerats into ill founded slanging. Perhaps we aren't so intelligent or civilised.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 17, 2021)

NearHull said:



			As the Telegraph article is behind a pay wall. Here is the essence of the article.

Almost a third of recovered Covid patients will end up back in hospital within five months and one in eight will die, alarming new figures have shown.

Research by Leicester University and the Office for National Statistics (ONS) found there is a devastating long-term toll on survivors of severe coronavirus, with many people developing heart problems, diabetes and chronic liver and kidney conditions.

Out of 47,780 people who were discharged from hospital in the first wave, 29.4 per cent were readmitted to hospital within 140 days, and 12.3 per cent of the total died.

The current cut-off point for recording Covid deaths is 28 days after a positive test, so it may mean thousands more people should be included in the coronavirus death statistics.

Click to expand...

Not looked but know we've had patients back from wards after we discharged them from ICU. Not sure how many if any have got as far as home and then back into ICU which is a good thing. Whether they've come back is a different story. One thing that is becoming more of an issue are the effects of long covid https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/long-term-effects-of-coronavirus-long-covid/

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00031-X/fulltext


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## NearHull (Jan 17, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not looked but know we've had patients back from wards after we discharged them from ICU. Not sure how many if any have got as far as home and then back into ICU which is a good thing. Whether they've come back is a different story. One thing that is becoming more of an issue are the effects of long covid https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/long-term-effects-of-coronavirus-long-covid/

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00031-X/fulltext

Click to expand...

i think my attitude up til recently has been ‘ you catch it, get poorly or not, recover or worse and then you‘re finished’.   Obviously, I was wrong, the long term effects are just dawning on the nation.  I fear for those who do catch the virus for their long term future, I don’t think they are going to ever feel safe.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			You really haven't got a clue what you're talking about, have you.

Anecdotal from one paramedic.

Far more pedestrians get knocked down walking down country lanes. Perhaps we should ban that.
		
Click to expand...


*Factual*, from a paramedic.
And yes, I do have a clue.


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## Ethan (Jan 17, 2021)

NearHull said:



			i think my attitude up til recently has been ‘ you catch it, get poorly or not, recover or worse and then you‘re finished’.   Obviously, I was wrong, the long term effects are just dawning on the nation.  I fear for those who do catch the virus for their long term future, I don’t think they are going to ever feel safe.
		
Click to expand...

As well as the (a) get it, not too bad, full recovery, (b) get it, rapid decline, die, (c) get it, hospital stay, long and unpleasant recovery, (d) get it, not too bad but doesn't go away, chronic symptoms (aka long Covid), there is another group yet to be revealed, (e) get it, seems not too bad, appears to have full recovery but X months down the line, liver/renal/heart/lung failure due to subclinical damage done by inflammatory effects.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



*Factual*, from a paramedic.
And yes, I do have a clue.
		
Click to expand...

People fall down stairs.

Perhaps it should be compulsory to live in a bungalow. 

Your paramedic friend makes a spurious claim about 20:1 but has nothing to support that.

You choose to believe him, I prefer to rely upon facts.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2021)

If anyone is struggling with Home schooling have a quick read of this


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## Old Skier (Jan 17, 2021)

2019 87 horses and 4 people end off

https://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/2019/march/dead-slow-2019

I think there may have been more motorcycle accidents and deaths but I’ll let @Slime disprove it.


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## Old Skier (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If anyone is struggling with Home schooling have a quick read of this

View attachment 34542

Click to expand...

Is it possible they have the date wrong.


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## NearHull (Jan 17, 2021)

Ethan said:



			As well as the (a) get it, not too bad, full recovery, (b) get it, rapid decline, die, (c) get it, hospital stay, long and unpleasant recovery, (d) get it, not too bad but doesn't go away, chronic symptoms (aka long Covid), there is another group yet to be revealed, (e) get it, seems not too bad, appears to have full recovery but X months down the line, liver/renal/heart/lung failure due to subclinical damage done by inflammatory effects.
		
Click to expand...

Group e is going to be either ignored by those who appear to get better ( whether by personal desire to ignore or by not fully appreciating the facts) or they are going to live in fear of reoccurrence/related ailments.  And it’s going to be a big group.  I am probably now at my lowest point by thinking about this.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Is it possible they have the date wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but why ?


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## Paperboy (Jan 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but why ?
		
Click to expand...

They’ve got the year wrong is all, apart from that I think it’s a good way to help parents who are potentially struggling.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			People fall down stairs.

Perhaps it should be compulsory to live in a bungalow.

Your paramedic friend makes a spurious claim about 20:1 but has nothing to support that.

You choose to believe him, I prefer to rely upon facts.
		
Click to expand...


Obviously a paramedic of 20+ years' experience has insufficient experience to base anything on.
If that's your best I'll leave it at that.
It's not worth falling out with anyone over differences of opinion, I certainly don't want to.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			2019 87 horses and 4 people end off

https://www.bhs.org.uk/our-charity/press-centre/news/2019/march/dead-slow-2019

I think there may have been more motorcycle accidents and deaths but I’ll let @Slime disprove it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm talking about accidents, not just deaths.
20 times more dangerous per participation, sorry if I didn't make that clear ......................... thought it would be obvious.
Recreational motorcycling, I believe, is also ruled out during this lockdown, horse riding isn't.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 17, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			You still have not shown where the great danger is in recreational horse riding.

In the absence of an answer I will have to  assume that you have nothing to support your claim.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2007/03_march/23/riding.shtml

"And Inside Out reveals a report by a leading spinal consultant which concluded that* riding a horse is 20 times more dangerous than riding a motorbike*.  While you can expect to have a serious motorbike accident once in every 7,000 hours, a serious riding accident happens once in every 350 hours."

https://www.esi-education.com/rural-weekly-horses-dangerous-riding-motorbikes-andrew-mclean/

RIDING horses is risky business.

According to new research, *you are 20 times more likely to be injured doing an equestrian-based activity than you are riding a motorbike.*


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2007/03_march/23/riding.shtml

"And Inside Out reveals a report by a leading spinal consultant which concluded that* riding a horse is 20 times more dangerous than riding a motorbike*.  While you can expect to have a serious motorbike accident once in every 7,000 hours, a serious riding accident happens once in every 350 hours."

https://www.esi-education.com/rural-weekly-horses-dangerous-riding-motorbikes-andrew-mclean/

RIDING horses is risky business.

According to new research, *you are 20 times more likely to be injured doing an equestrian-based activity than you are riding a motorbike.*

Click to expand...

Thanks mate, I knew it was there somewhere, just couldn't find it.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 17, 2021)

Slime said:



			Thanks mate, I knew it was there somewhere, just couldn't find it. 

Click to expand...

I just googled "Is horse riding more dangerous than motorcycling?"  First link is the top answer, albeit somewhat old, second link was further down but more recent.


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)




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## MegaSteve (Jan 17, 2021)

I've always been led to believe that the vast majority of visits to A+E are as a result of an accident within the home... Perhaps we ought consider banning staying at home...


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## Slime (Jan 17, 2021)

Oh.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 18, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I've always been led to believe that the vast majority of visits to A+E are as a result of an accident within the home... Perhaps we ought consider banning staying at home...
		
Click to expand...

[/https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/dec/12/home-accident-risk-nhs-doctor

Also read that most motor accidents occur close to home so perhaps we must drive further away!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2007/03_march/23/riding.shtml

"And Inside Out reveals a report by a leading spinal consultant which concluded that* riding a horse is 20 times more dangerous than riding a motorbike*.  While you can expect to have a serious motorbike accident once in every 7,000 hours, a serious riding accident happens once in every 350 hours."

https://www.esi-education.com/rural-weekly-horses-dangerous-riding-motorbikes-andrew-mclean/

RIDING horses is risky business.

According to new research, *you are 20 times more likely to be injured doing an equestrian-based activity than you are riding a motorbike.*

Click to expand...

That claim was made 14 years ago and the stats were considered doubtful as they are based upon assumptions of how much time is spent partaking in the different activities. 

If fatalities are compared the results are completely different. 

And I speak as one who has ridden bikes on the road,  moto-cross, enduro and done track days.


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## bobmac (Jan 18, 2021)

Can't you guys just agree to disagree?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 18, 2021)

I think the point being made is that with the NHS being under so much pressure, it is probably wise not to engage in out of the ordinary activities that could end us up in hospital, if it goes wrong.

Ie I’m not going to take up skiing , but if I was a regular horse rider, I’d see no reason to stop. Just maybe not do anything risky

Likewise biking 👍


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## Imurg (Jan 18, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I think the point being made is that with the NHS being under so much pressure, it is probably wise not to engage in out of the ordinary activities that could end us up in hospital, if it goes wrong.

Ie I’m not going to take up skiing , but if I was a regular horse rider, I’d see no reason to stop. Just maybe not do anything risky

Likewise biking 👍
		
Click to expand...

Never ended up in hospital after playing golf....
Jus sayin...


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Group e is going to be either ignored by those who appear to get better ( whether by personal desire to ignore or by not fully appreciating the facts) or they are going to live in fear of reoccurrence/related ailments.  And it’s going to be a big group.  I am probably now at my lowest point by thinking about this.
		
Click to expand...

The reason I mention this other group is that Covid is fundamentally an inflammatory disease rather than an infective one. That may seem too be splitting hairs but what I mean is that it sets off processes in organ systems which may come to nothing or may set in train long term issues. We know that the seeds of liver or renal failure are often sewn a long time in advance, Hep B infection of the liver can cause liver failure years later. There have been observations already made about increases in new onset Type I Diabetes in kids, probably caused by an inflammatory effect on the pancreas, and I suspect we will see a range of other stuff ranging from infertility through similar effects on both males and females, neurological disorders of varying sorts and blood disorders.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2021)

PieMan said:



			👍

I run and I cycle. I run either very early in the morning; or later in the evening when not many people are around. If I know I'm going to pass someone I run onto the road and make sure I'm nowhere near them.

When I cycle I'm on my road bike, so as the name suggests, I'm cycling on the road! As such nowhere near walkers on the pavement.

*You cannot ban running and cycling where they could be people's only form of exercise.*

However you do get runners and cyclists using paths, pavements and tracks used predominately by walkers and they are not considerate to the walkers. This is wrong in my opinion and as such perhaps those responsible for these, such as landowners, local authorities etc, could possibly put signs up saying that walkers have priority use.

It's a difficult one to resolve.
		
Click to expand...

I do not run I do not cycle.  What do I do for my exercise? I walk. Just saying 😇

btw - runners don’t need to stop running, they just need to know that they too can sometimes stop and wait for others to pass - as walkers do. And cyclists don’t need to stop cycling.  But if they can’t take a wide berth they can at least slow down to walking pace when passing walkers 😘


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not run I do not cycle.  What do I do for my exercise? I walk. Just saying 😇

btw - runners don’t need to stop running, they just need to know that they too can sometimes stop and wait for others to pass - as walkers do. And cyclists don’t need to stop cycling.  But if they can’t take a wide berth they can at least slow down to walking pace when passing walkers 😘
		
Click to expand...

Or walkers can recognise that when sharing a designated path they can move to one side or realise they don’t have to walk side by side at all times.
Everybody needs to acknowledge everybody else and behave appropriately.

Apart from the few Dog Owners who cannot operate their extendable lead, they can do what they want.


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## DRW (Jan 18, 2021)

Someone said above about ICU is it mainly younger people, the reason for this is that old people(say 70 plus) are sadly to frail to survive and therefore don't make it to ICU. 

Some interesting analysis, comparing per age group, link and a easy to see chart(not quite sure where the breakdown data is from, will go to look to find if available) :-

Christina Pagel on Twitter: "THREAD: on the connection between age, infection, hospitalisation, death and vaccination... TLDR: it matters! so read 7 tweets  Each bar in the charts shows the proportion of people in each of the coloured age categories. 1/7" / Twitter


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or walkers can recognise that when sharing a designated path they can move to one side or realise they don’t have to walk side by side at all times.
Everybody needs to acknowledge everybody else and behave appropriately.

Apart from the few Dog Owners who cannot operate their extendable lead, they can do what they want.

Click to expand...

I do not disagree one iota - yes - me and my Mrs always go single file when passing others - many walkers do not and that does irk us a little. Often we can tell in advance of passing if they are going to go single file and if our guess is not we will stand aside.   However my observation remains.  My experience of taking a walk with my wife pretty much every day for the last 10months (that being our pandemic exercise) is simply that walkers do the vast majority of the standing aside/waiting/retracing of steps, and that runners and cyclists will rarely 'drop pace' and any acknowledgement given is often cursory rather than appreciative.  Just saying.


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## Old Skier (Jan 18, 2021)

Although I admire the persistence of some to provide stats on this thread it is a bit like watching the BBC (other companies are available) and it’s all bad news which is a bit depressing.


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## DanFST (Jan 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Although I admire the persistence of some to provide stats on this thread it is a bit like watching the BBC (other companies are available) and it’s all bad news which is a bit depressing.
		
Click to expand...

Good news, We are now vaccinating faster than infections. 

Hopefully a light at the end of the tunnel. You have to hand it to the government in this one instance, we are currently doing very well. 

May annoy some, but in this instance, Brexit helped us.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Although I admire the persistence of some to provide stats on this thread it is a bit like watching the BBC (other companies are available) and it’s all bad news which is a bit depressing.
		
Click to expand...

News explained. 😩


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350527440058253312


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Although I admire the persistence of some to provide stats on this thread it is a bit like watching the BBC (other companies are available) and it’s all bad news which is a bit depressing.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of positive stuff on the BBC (and elsewhere) about the vaccines.

Besides.

I have worries about how things are going and how they will go - especially given how things have gone so far - and I *need* journalists and reporters to highlight where they find problems so that these problems can be put to those in charge and I can read and hear the responses.  I do not need a bunch of sycophants in the media chucking down lollipops and long-hops.  Those journalists who ask questions in briefings are in a privileged position that we are not - the opportunity to ask directly those responsible for framing our short-medium length future the difficult questions, the questions that those in charge might find difficult and awkward.  And to press them repeatedly on these questions whilst the concerns remain.  It's tough at the top and having to shoulder responsibilities.

However I agree that the media does have to also reflect and report where there is good and positivity.  It is not all doom and gloom and care should be taken to ensure that it is not made to seem so.


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

DRW said:



			Someone said above about ICU is it mainly younger people, the reason for this is that old people(say 70 plus) are sadly to frail to survive and therefore don't make it to ICU. 

Some interesting analysis, comparing per age group, link and a easy to see chart(not quite sure where the breakdown data is from, will go to look to find if available) :-

Christina Pagel on Twitter: "THREAD: on the connection between age, infection, hospitalisation, death and vaccination... TLDR: it matters! so read 7 tweets  Each bar in the charts shows the proportion of people in each of the coloured age categories. 1/7" / Twitter


View attachment 34547

Click to expand...


You can consider it as layers, General population > Covid cases > Cases needing hospital > Hospital cases needing ICU > deaths. Not all deaths come in ICU, of course. We know that severity of disease increases with age, so death also increases exponentially with age. ICU admission is filtered by the assessment of whether it will be possible to get someone off a ventilator. No point in "saving" them using a vent only to effectively kill them the same way. 

I have already told my family that if I ever get to the stage for whatever reason where I am no longer able to function at a level that I would be willing to tolerate, just make me comfortable and say goodbye. No heroic measures. 

That graphic focuses on mortality. It is worth noting that if you look at cases and hospital admissions, and remove deaths to leave survivors, you further inflate the younger groups, and thus the burden of long Covid starts to become a younger patient problem.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Good news, We are now vaccinating faster than infections.

Hopefully a light at the end of the tunnel. You have to hand it to the government in this one instance, we are currently doing very well.

May annoy some, but in this instance, Brexit helped us.
		
Click to expand...

You think this government is doing well based on our response to Covid including the vaccination program?

Wow. That’s all I can say to that.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			News explained. 😩


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350527440058253312

Click to expand...

While it’s certainly true that news will often focus on negative events, it’s also completely bogus to suggest the mainstream media are or have been fear-mongering over Covid. If anything they’ve been too kind in their condemnation of our handling of it and of the general population’s attitudes. They’re scared to chase away their audience by telling the truth.


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## DanFST (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You think this government is doing well based on our response to Covid including the vaccination program?

Wow. That’s all I can say to that.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, are you unable to read?

"You have to hand it to the government *in this one instance*, we are currently doing very well."


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## Beezerk (Jan 18, 2021)

Haterz will continue to hate 😒


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350856711175856129
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-vaccinate-nation-against-new-covid-strains/

There are lot more positive areas to concentrate on in regards the current situation 

The vaccine program is going on and now we are above the infection rate 

The R number in the UK is dropping , 

The number of cases is dropping 

There is light at the end of the tunnel and we will be back to normal soon enough 

Lockdown will ease in 4/5 weeks , Tier systems will go by June - life will move on 

Pubs , Restaurants, hospitality, shops , golf clubs will blossom 

The country in the past has faced worse times and got through 

There will always be stats that can be produced to scare people - time to move past them


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## DanFST (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Wow. That’s all I can say to that.
		
Click to expand...

Here's a graph to make it easier for you.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Sorry, are you unable to read?

"You have to hand it to the government *in this one instance*, we are currently doing very well."
		
Click to expand...

But we aren’t. We’re not vaccinating properly. The government have spread the doses farther apart than guidance says they should purely so they can claim more people are immune. Once again they’ve picked politicking over the greater good.


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Here's a graph to make it easier for you. 

View attachment 34548

Click to expand...


i have been very critical of Govt over many aspects of Covid, but I agree they are doing well so far on vaccination. They got a jump with earlier approval, and it remains to be seen if that advantage is maintained, and I support the stragey of giving one shot to as many as possible. This is a population vaccination strategy and the bang for your buck is higher that way. 

There are a couple of challenges coming. Vaccine supply is the current rate limiter for this programme (staffing may be a later rate limiter) and there are some possible dips in supply coming just as the plans are to scale up. Not booking Moderna soon enough was a mistake, we won't get any until April whereas the EU is getting their now, so we may be dependent on the Johnson and Johnson one shot vaccine coming through in order to fill the gap. One shot also makes the logistics a lot easier. It is due to report phase III results soon. The other great hope, the GSK/Sanofi vaccine, looks to have stepped on a banana skin.


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## Old Skier (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			But we aren’t. We’re not vaccinating properly. The government have spread the doses farther apart than guidance says they should purely so they can claim more people are immune. Once again they’ve picked politicking over the greater good.
		
Click to expand...

Under the advise of the experts, people have the choice to believe or disbelieve the experts or if they have given that advise.

None on here will be able to prove or disprove it.

One of the problems I have at the moment is with the apparent news that some areas are now moving on to the 70+ group with the vaccine, I am a NHS responder and also used for telephone chats and the big issue is responding to those over 80 who have yet to receive an invitation for a jab and trying to come up with a reason as to why that vaccines that can be redistributed don’t appear to have been.


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Under the advise of the experts, people have the choice to believe or disbelieve the experts or if they have given that advise.

None on here will be able to prove or disprove it.

One of the problems I have at the moment is with the apparent news that some areas are now moving on to the 70+ group with the vaccine, I am a NHS responder and also used for telephone chats and the big issue is responding to those over 80 who have yet to receive an invitation for a jab and trying to come up with a reason as to why that vaccines that can be redistributed don’t appear to have been.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there is any suggestion that the over 80s are fully sorted, but like at the airport, they call forward the next group while some of the previous one are still in the queue. It moves faster overall that way.


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## User62651 (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Good news, We are now vaccinating faster than infections.

Hopefully a light at the end of the tunnel. You have to hand it to the government in this one instance, we are currently doing very well.

*May annoy some*, but in this instance, Brexit helped us.
		
Click to expand...


Not annoying but getting it done right is key. 
Bothered about the mad rush and rollout for Pfizer 2 jab tretament with makers originally saying it should 3 weeks between doses for max effectiveness, govt let people think they were on a 3 week repeat schedule but now saying 12 weeks for 2nd jab which in all likelihood could mean longer, major stress for lots of people who've had jab 1. What are Pfizer and medics saying about that delay? - is it 3 weeks or is it 12 weeks? - what are the consequences of the delay? - maybe no one really knows because it's brand new but the pharma co. experts did the testing and wanted 3 weeks. That seems to have been conveniently brushed aside by govt. 
Should they not keep the doses back in order to repeat dose those who've had one jab already to the recommended 3 week repeat dose?
Better less people fully inoculated than more people ineffectively inoculated just to improve stats and feebly spin it as some kind of win of brexit.


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## Pants (Jan 18, 2021)

I'd like to express my appreciation of the expert knowledge, clarity of thought, balance, and the time taken to provide explanations that even laymen like myself can understand, that @Ethan has brought to this thread.


Thank you @Ethan.


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

Pants said:



			I'd like to express my appreciation of the expert knowledge, clarity of thought, balance, and the time taken to provide explanations that even laymen like myself can understand, that @Ethan has brought to this thread.


Thank you @Ethan.  

Click to expand...

Aw, gee, you'll make me blush.


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## Pants (Jan 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Aw, gee, you'll make me blush.
		
Click to expand...



It's true though.  There have been so many one sided posts here that your balanced comments have been most welcome.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Aw, gee, you'll make me blush.
		
Click to expand...

Best check your temp


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## DanFST (Jan 18, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Better less people fully inoculated than more people ineffectively inoculated just to improve stats and feebly spin it as some kind of win of brexit.

Click to expand...

Is it tho? What research have you done that dismisses those done by our scientists? 


The "win" for brexit, is that we have been able to procure way more doses than EU countries as we don't have to deal with the "common strategy". Note that we could've approved the use of a vaccine independently of the EU if we were still in, but procurement would have been an issue.


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## bobmac (Jan 18, 2021)

Ethan, have you seen any reports from Dr. John Campbell?
He seems to be well informed


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 18, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Better less people fully inoculated than more people ineffectively inoculated just to improve stats and feebly spin it as some kind of win of brexit.

Click to expand...

What a load of nonsense. What medical qualifications do you have to say that it's better to have fewer people with both jabs rather than more people with one jab? We've got Ethan on here with medical training supporting the current process. Why do you think he's wrong?

And where is the spin? The numbers being published each day show the total number of vaccinations carried out and the total number that have received both the first and second injections. Seems as though you are so blinded by your dislike of the current government that you are unable to give them any credit when they do finally seem to be getting one part of their pandemic response correct.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not disagree one iota - yes - me and my Mrs always go single file when passing others - many walkers do not and that does irk us a little. Often we can tell in advance of passing if they are going to go single file and if our guess is not we will stand aside.   However my observation remains.  My experience of taking a walk with my wife pretty much every day for the last 10months (that being our pandemic exercise) is simply that walkers do the vast majority of the standing aside/waiting/retracing of steps, and that runners and cyclists will rarely 'drop pace' and any acknowledgement given is often cursory rather than appreciative.  Just saying.
		
Click to expand...

I can assure you as a walker, runner & cyclist, all have ignorant people, most runners and cyclists though are far more aware of their surroundings as some walkers are in a world of their own and can not walk in a straight line.
No one group is beyond reproach.


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## User62651 (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



*Is it tho? What research have you done that dismisses those done by our scientists?*

The "win" for brexit, is that we have been able to procure way more doses than EU countries as we don't have to deal with the "common strategy". Note that we could've approved the use of a vaccine independently of the EU if we were still in, but procurement would have been an issue.
		
Click to expand...

We dont know and that's the point. If a pharmaceutical manufacturer recommends after intense research/trials doses at 3 weeks apart, surely that's not just an arbitrary timeframe? Govt told us 3 weeks apart as well when rollout started...until they found the supply chain can't keep up....then extend timeframe to suit. Hardly inspires confidence.

Cant do politics alas so the B word shouldn't have come up.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			What a load of nonsense. What medical qualifications do you have to say that it's better to have fewer people with both jabs rather than more people with one jab? We've got Ethan on here with medical training supporting the current process. Why do you think he's wrong?

And where is the spin? The numbers being published each day show the total number of vaccinations carried out and the total number that have received both the first and second injections. Seems as though you are so blinded by your dislike of the current government that you are unable to give them any credit when they do finally seem to be getting one part of their pandemic response correct.
		
Click to expand...

I have friends who work in health who have been given their first dose on the agreement the second dose would be within three weeks. Two of them were told later that day that it would now be twelve weeks. They are considering legal action becauae of the paperwork they signed to get their first dose and the contract has been broken without evidence to support it.

If this decision ends up causing reduced immunity, it is surely the last straw for this administration.


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## DanFST (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I have friends who work in health who have been given their first dose on the agreement the second dose would be within three weeks. Two of them were told later that day that it would now be twelve weeks. They are considering legal action becauae of the paperwork they signed to get their first dose and the contract has been broken without evidence to support it.

If this decision ends up causing reduced immunity, it is surely the last straw for this administration.
		
Click to expand...

I thought we were all in this together?

Paperwork aside, they are angry because the second dose they were supposed to have, will be going to someone else, which will most likely keep them out of hospital and could save their life? Can't use the word I'd like to describe them here, but what lovely people!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I have friends who work in health who have been given their first dose on the agreement the second dose would be within three weeks. Two of them were told later that day that it would now be twelve weeks. *They are considering legal action becauae of the paperwork they signed to get their first dose and the contract has been broken without evidence to support it.*

If this decision ends up causing reduced immunity, it is surely the last straw for this administration.
		
Click to expand...

That also sums up the state of the selfish nation we have become 

The medical profession have decided to space out the vaccines to allow more of the country to gain a level of immunity 

Maybe instead of looking to sue they should be thankful they are in a position to gain the first vaccine to give themselves some level of immunity whilst others haven’t yet


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## Beezerk (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I have friends who work in health who have been given their first dose on the agreement the second dose would be within three weeks. Two of them were told later that day that it would now be twelve weeks. They are considering legal action becauae of the paperwork they signed to get their first dose and the contract has been broken without evidence to support it.

If this decision ends up causing reduced immunity, it is surely the last straw for this administration.
		
Click to expand...

Just to clear this up.
Some people have been lucky enough to have received their first  vaccine, and are now taking legal action for their 2nd?
Jesus christ, sorry but what a bunch of winkers.


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Ethan, have you seen any reports from Dr. John Campbell?
He seems to be well informed







Click to expand...

I have. I don't follow his stuff. It seems pretty reasonable and uncontroversial and fine to explain some scientific concepts to a lay audience but I don't think he is a real expert. There is another Dr John Campbell in Glasgow or Edinburgh who is an academic immunologist and I think some people have conflated their credentials.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I have friends who work in health who have been given their first dose on the agreement the second dose would be within three weeks. Two of them were told later that day that it would now be twelve weeks. They are considering legal action becauae of the paperwork they signed to get their first dose and the contract has been broken without evidence to support it.

If this decision ends up causing reduced immunity, it is surely the last straw for this administration.
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying they would have declined the 1st vaccine if they knew they would have to wait 12 weeks to get the 2nd?  That really does not come across well in their favour.


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## upsidedown (Jan 18, 2021)

And to counter that my wife who is a vaccinator gets half a dozen a day ask her if they can have their picture taken as they receive their dose , out of the 60-80  she does in  a 12 hour shift


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I have friends who work in health who have been given their first dose on the agreement the second dose would be within three weeks. Two of them were told later that day that it would now be twelve weeks. *They are considering legal action becauae of the paperwork they signed to get their first dose and the contract has been broken without evidence to support it.*

If this decision ends up causing reduced immunity, it is surely the last straw for this administration.
		
Click to expand...

I think they need to get better legal advice, i.e. to save their money. IANAL, but consent is not a binding contract for the provision of services. Also, they would have to show harm, (as opposed to upset) which they will not be able to do. It may even be that the delayed schedule has better longer term protection. There is some evidence from the AZ data set to suggest this. 

My wife is an NHS doctor who got one shot and had the second one postponed, even though her employer expects her to see first line patients including, if necessary, those with Covid. She isn't suing anybody.

Your friends should consider themselves fortunate to have received a dose of a highly effective vaccine which has conferred almost complete protection, and understand that if they are anxious to see society get back to normal, prioritising first vaccinations is a reasonable policy.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Are you saying they would have declined the 1st vaccine if they knew they would have to wait 12 weeks to get the 2nd?  That really does not come across well in their favour.
		
Click to expand...

They’re saying they were promised a scientifically backed vaccination program to allow them to return to work safely but after they had agreed to it, they had the goalposts moved  illegally (as per the paperwork they had to complete to receive their vaccinations) in a manner that is highly suggestive that they were duped into accepting it when it was known the three week window was a false promise. 

The point here is they believe they were lied to and they believe it may we worth taking legal action to find out if that was the case - were they told three weeks when those overseeing knew it would be twelve. 

They do believe they are at lesser risk of contracting Covid now, even with just one dose, but that’s not their ultimate grievance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2021)

Interesting listening to Sumption, Deborah James and others on _The Big Questions_ on the BBC yesterday morning.  My Mrs is a great fan of Deborah James as a advocate for all with a cancer (and other serious conditions) - and she's not a great fan of the views of Sumption.  Separate from the elderly and those with serious lower immunity - I'm wondering whether Sumption considers all of the BAME community to be part of the 'more vulnerable' and so who should be shielding to allow 'the rest of us' to get on with life.


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## Beezerk (Jan 18, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			And to counter that my wife who is a vaccinator gets half a dozen a day ask her if they can have their picture taken as they receive their dose , out of the 60-80  she does in  a 12 hour shift
		
Click to expand...

There was something on the news this morning about some people turning out in their Sunday best, women in full makeup just to get their jabs. They're having to usher them out as they just want to hang around and chat.
Quite charming imo.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think they need to get better legal advice, i.e. to save their money. IANAL, but consent is not a binding contract for the provision of services. Also, they would have to show harm, (as opposed to upset) which they will not be able to do. It may even be that the delayed schedule has better longer term protection. There is some evidence from the AZ data set to suggest this.

My wife is an NHS doctor who got one shot and had the second one postponed, even though her employer expects her to see first line patients including, if necessary, those with Covid. She isn't suing anybody.

Your friends should consider themselves fortunate to have received a dose of a highly effective vaccine which has conferred almost complete protection, and understand that if they are anxious to see society get back to normal, prioritising first vaccinations is a reasonable policy.
		
Click to expand...

See post above. It’s about the deception and at what point do we challenge a constantly deceptive administration.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			They’re saying they were promised a scientifically backed vaccination program to allow them to return to work safely but after they had agreed to it, they had the goalposts moved  illegally (as per the paperwork they had to complete to receive their vaccinations) in a manner that is highly suggestive that they were duped into accepting it when it was known the three week window was a false promise.

The point here is they believe they were lied to and they believe it may we worth taking legal action to find out if that was the case - were they told three weeks when those overseeing knew it would be twelve.

They do believe they are at lesser risk of contracting Covid now, even with just one dose, but that’s not their ultimate grievance.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously - lied to...?  They need to get a life as like the rest of us they risk losing it.  Would they have accepted the vaccination if they had known they might not get the second dose for 12weeks - no - of course they wouldn't have...yeh - right...

You can't deceive about what is to come if you don't know the future truth but only know what is true today.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seriously - lied to...?  They need to get a life as like the rest of us they risk losing it.  Would they have accepted the vaccination if they had known they might not get the second dose for 12weeks - no - of course they wouldn't have...yeh - right...

You can't deceive if you don't know the future truth but only know what is true today.
		
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Look at the time line involved. The very same afternoon they were told.


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## DanFST (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Look at the time line involved. The very same afternoon they were told.
		
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They are both selfish See ya next tuesdays. 

At least almost all of us can see that apart from you. No need to add anymore really.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Good news, We are now vaccinating faster than infections.

Hopefully a light at the end of the tunnel. You have to hand it to the government in this one instance, we are currently doing very well.

May annoy some, but in this instance, Brexit helped us.
		
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Said exactly the same to the mrs yesterday. Its easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight and see where they coukd have done (a lot) better but theyve done exceptionally well getting the vaccine rolled out so far, beating many expert predictions.


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## bobmac (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			They are considering legal action becauae of the paperwork they signed to get their first dose and the contract has been broken without evidence to support it.
		
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Do you agree with them?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			They’re saying they were promised a scientifically backed vaccination program to allow them to return to work safely but after they had agreed to it, they had the goalposts moved  illegally (as per the paperwork they had to complete to receive their vaccinations) in a manner that is highly suggestive that they were duped into accepting it when it was known the three week window was a false promise.

The point here is they believe they were lied to and they believe it may we worth taking legal action to find out if that was the case - were they told three weeks when those overseeing knew it would be twelve.

They do believe they are at lesser risk of contracting Covid now, even with just one dose, but that’s not their ultimate grievance.
		
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They need to have a very strong look at themselves if they believe this a good course of action, or give their heads a wobble as Tuggles would say. The sympathy within the country for this attitude would be heavily in the negative column. 

The move from 3 weeks to 12 weeks was a fluid one, a suggestion that carried merit and picked up momentum. It is sad that they see something terrible in that.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			They are both selfish See ya next tuesdays.

At least almost all of us can see that apart from you. No need to add anymore really.
		
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DanFST said:



			They are both selfish See ya next tuesdays.

At least almost all of us can see that apart from you. No need to add anymore really.
		
Click to expand...

Selfish for wanting to safely return to their jobs helping other people. Good one.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Do you agree with them?
		
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I agree that they should be asking questions about the timeline involved. Not sure I’d be considering the legal route at this stage.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They need to have a very strong look at themselves if they believe this a good course of action, or give their heads a wobble as Tuggles would say. The sympathy within the country for this attitude would be heavily in the negative column.

The move from 3 weeks to 12 weeks was a fluid one, a suggestion that carried merit and picked up momentum. It is sad that they see something terrible in that.
		
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I haven’t spoken to either since the day after it happened so perhaps their anger has subsided. I don’t know. But I certainly don’t blame them for they initial anger at least.


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## Beezerk (Jan 18, 2021)

Can you remove the vaccine from someone who's already had it? 🤨


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			They’re saying they were promised a scientifically backed vaccination program to allow them to return to work safely but after they had agreed to it, they had the goalposts moved  illegally (as per the paperwork they had to complete to receive their vaccinations) in a manner that is highly suggestive that they were duped into accepting it when it was known the three week window was a false promise.

The point here is they believe they were lied to and they believe it may we worth taking legal action to find out if that was the case - were they told three weeks when those overseeing knew it would be twelve.

They do believe they are at lesser risk of contracting Covid now, even with just one dose, but that’s not their ultimate grievance.
		
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Kellfire said:



			See post above. It’s about the deception and at what point do we challenge a constantly deceptive administration.
		
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Legal cases are about specific and testable issues. If they wish to challenge a deceptive administration (and I do not disagree with the characterisation), then fine, but this is not the winning issue. Even if they were able to show that they had been lied to, had consent interfered with, or whatever, unless they have suffered demonstrable harm, the only legal remedy will be that they can have their shot asap, and if that happens the knock on effects will interfere with many others getting their first shot and will cost lives as a result. Do they want that to happen? 

It is perfectly likely that the plan to delay, or even to go to one shot, were hatched a long time ago. A range of contingencies should have been so planned. What if several vaccine programmes failed (like the GSK/Sanofi) or threw up unexpected safety issues. What if manufacturing problems occurred (these are biologics and liable to batch failure). Frankly, I would be reassured to know the Govt had anticipated possible issues and had plans in place. I don't think any court will hold the having such plans means that people were duped. 

The Govt will argue that their plan is scientifically backed, and can wheel out a bunch of scientists to back it. There was never a guarantee of safe returning to work, just the hope of a reduction of the risk of severe outcomes. 

A legal challenge to this is unhelpful, possible harmful and screams entitlement, in my view.


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Good news, We are now vaccinating faster than infections.

Hopefully a light at the end of the tunnel. You have to hand it to the government in this one instance, we are currently doing very well.

*May annoy some, but in this instance, Brexit helped us*.
		
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No, it didn't. 

EMA regulations allow any member state to put in place local emergency measures. The UK could have done so while remaining a full member of the EU and EMA. The EMA decided that it would not rush approval of the vaccines because of public concern about the hasty approval. It did, however, continue logistics in member states. The UK chose to do its own thing and make some political points. The head of the MHRA had to correct this.

Brexit hindered the UK joining the EU procurement system even though they were invited. If they had done so they would have some Moderna vaccine arriving right now.


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			We dont know and that's the point. If a pharmaceutical manufacturer recommends after intense research/trials doses at 3 weeks apart, surely that's not just an arbitrary timeframe? Govt told us 3 weeks apart as well when rollout started...until they found the supply chain can't keep up....then extend timeframe to suit. Hardly inspires confidence.

Cant do politics alas so the B word shouldn't have come up.
		
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The Pfizer statement was exactly as you would expect. No way they are going to say anything other than it should be done in line with the clinical trial.

However, that clinical trial was designed based on assumptions about effect size and durability later shown to be pessimistic. The choice of 3 weeks is partly arbitrary, pragmatic is perhaps a better word, in that the longer you extend the interval, the longer the clinical trial must last, but also that it was chosen to hit in the middle of the IgG antibody response, when your immune system is obviously geared up. But we already know that the time course of antibodies is over a number of months, probably more like 6 months (although even that is not the end of immunity), and conventional immunology would suggest that a booster any time in that interval would do just fine, if one is even needed.

Personally, I am pretty comfortable with the strategy. I am not surprised that individuals want their second shot, but this is a population strategy.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Can't you guys just agree to disagree?
		
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I could agree to agree potentially bobmac, if the party doing most of the shouting could back their claims up in the same way they've asked others to.


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## chrisd (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I haven’t spoken to either since the day after it happened so perhaps their anger has subsided. I don’t know. But I certainly don’t blame them for they initial anger at least.
		
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I would blame them , they are without doubt the biggest of. (choose an adjective).

How many lives might be saved from the millions who will get their first dose because of the change of plan, I'm no expert but doubt many will die as a result of the change.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 18, 2021)

Had one today that just frustrated Me 

My good friend from work we litterally started at 16 on the same day

Work together pretty often. We picked rostered positions that mean we work together more often.

Anyways today he asks for a lift to work.. really found it hard to say no (I did refuse in end) but I feel a right idiot. We work together for hours on end (12 hours Saturday for example) yes we social distance and wear masks when not at desks but their are no windows and the air con is recycled air so if one of us got it chances are we all would.

But I didn't feel right breaking the guidance 

On the flip side that would have been one less car on the road, one less chance of an accident etc 

Also got to work all afternoon with him winding me up for refusing lol


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## pokerjoke (Jan 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Had one today that just frustrated Me

My good friend from work we litterally started at 16 on the same day

Work together pretty often. We picked rostered positions that mean we work together more often.

Anyways today he asks for a lift to work.. really found it hard to say no (I did refuse in end) but I feel a right idiot. We work together for hours on end (12 hours Saturday for example) yes we social distance and wear masks when not at desks but their are no windows and the air con is recycled air so if one of us got it chances are we all would.

But I didn't feel right breaking the guidance

On the flip side that would have been one less car on the road, one less chance of an accident etc

Also got to work all afternoon with him winding me up for refusing lol
		
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I would just say I’d rather you alive as a friend than the risk of one of us dying.
Tough time need tough decisions,imo you made the right one.
Least he’s taking the mick so sounds like he’s took it well.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 18, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			I would just say I’d rather you alive as a friend than the risk of one of us dying.
Tough time need tough decisions,imo you made the right one.
Least he’s taking the mick so sounds like he’s took it well.
		
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He respects my decision , others will give each other lifts as they believe working together in the air con room etc 

But I haven't given him a lift in since mid may I think when the guidance on car sharing came out


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I would blame them , they are without doubt the biggest of. (choose an adjective).

How many lives might be saved from the millions who will get their first dose because of the change of plan, I'm no expert but doubt many will die as a result of the change.
		
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At the time there was advice from the manufacturers not to follow the twelve week rule. For all we knew/know, it could render the vaccination less effective.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			At the time there was advice from the manufacturers not to follow the twelve week rule. For all we knew/know, it could render the vaccination less effective.
		
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Stop digging that hole, it's making you look silly.


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## chrisd (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			At the time there was advice from the manufacturers not to follow the twelve week rule. For all we knew/know, it could render the vaccination less effective.
		
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Read post 14,697


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## Ethan (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			At the time there was advice from the manufacturers not to follow the twelve week rule. For all we knew/know, it could render the vaccination less effective.
		
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There wasn't. They offered no advice, because that is not their role. They reiterated that the only evidence was as obtained by the schedule used in the clinical trials. They made no comment on the possible efficacy or lack thereof of different schedules.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Can you remove the vaccine from someone who's already had it? 🤨
		
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I would give them their second injection using a needle the size of a baseball bat, inserted anally.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			But we aren’t. We’re not vaccinating properly. The government have spread the doses farther apart than guidance says they should purely so they can claim more people are immune. Once again they’ve picked politicking over the greater good.
		
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I've had enough of this hatred. You are beyond the pale.
It has been explained by those who know the science , on here it's Ethan, that the first dose gives a high degree of immunity( after X days). Not full, but high enough to protect.
The country is in crisis and it's important to get as many people protected as fast as possible.
If you can't see that 200 single doses protects 200 people , whereas the same 200 doses, two each person, protects 100, then you are being highly , nastily , political. I say that because I do not believe that you are as thick as otherwise someone might think.
Why not try being fair minded for once.


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## Old Skier (Jan 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I've had enough of this hatred. You are beyond the pale.
It has been explained by those who know the science , on here it's Ethan, that the first dose gives a high degree of immunity( after X days). Not full, but high enough to protect.
The country is in crisis and it's important to get as many people protected as fast as possible.
If you can't see that 200 single doses protects 200 people , whereas the same 200 doses, two each person, protects 100, then you are being highly , nastily , political. I say that because I do not believe that you are as thick as otherwise someone might think.
Why not try being fair minded for once.
		
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I suspect he will be there like a shot no matter how many doses he’s offered.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I've had enough of this hatred. You are beyond the pale.
It has been explained by those who know the science , on here it's Ethan, that the first dose gives a high degree of immunity( after X days). Not full, but high enough to protect.
The country is in crisis and it's important to get as many people protected as fast as possible.
If you can't see that 200 single doses protects 200 people , whereas the same 200 doses, two each person, protects 100, then you are being highly , nastily , political. I say that because I do not believe that you are as thick as otherwise someone might think.
Why not try being fair minded for once.
		
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Had to click the "show ignored content" to see what you replied to. 

Now I remember why I put him on ignore the first time around.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 18, 2021)

Unfortunately and sadly, I fear that many of the complaints we hear in respect of the vaccinations and lockdown are what we get when so many have, over the years, developed ever greater feelings of individual self-importance and entitlement.


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## bobmac (Jan 18, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Had to click the "show ignored content" to see what you replied to.

Now I remember why I put him on ignore the first time around.
		
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You too?


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## Old Skier (Jan 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You too?  

Click to expand...

He’s just what we (in the mil) call a “Whaaah” poster, likes to see a reaction.


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## chrisd (Jan 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You too?  

Click to expand...

Not me, I like to read a balance of posting and i can usually be pretty certain that his postings are the bottom of the baseline and appear to be so just to wind us all up 🤫


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2021)

Scots NHS not happy with interference from London regarding Scottish Covid vaccination planning.
Deemed a national security risk somehow.


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## Old Skier (Jan 18, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots NHS not happy with interference from London regarding Scottish Covid vaccination planning.
Deemed a national security risk somehow.

Click to expand...

I could tell you but I’d have to kill you but there is a reason the vaccines are being escorted by big burly chaps and chappeses.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Not me, I like to read a balance of posting and i can usually be pretty certain that his postings are the bottom of the baseline and appear to be so just to wind us all up 🤫
		
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Balanced and getting a variety of different views and opinions, absolutely. But this would be the equivalent of incorporate what's coming out of your backside as one of your five a day.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2021)

To continue a positive theme 

Over 4 million doses now administered 

The daily numbers continue on the downward curve over the 7 day period - quite a big drop as well 

Super vaccine hubs opening up all over the country


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## SaintHacker (Jan 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To continue a positive theme

Over 4 million doses now administered

The daily numbers continue on the downward curve over the 7 day period - quite a big drop as well

Super vaccine hubs opening up all over the country
		
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Whilst the French will apparently not hit 1m until the end of the month.


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## User62651 (Jan 18, 2021)

Positives of vaccination need to be tempered with the current infection and death rates so people don't get complacent. Still a long way to go and much hurt. Latest data not good for UK. Stay safe.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 18, 2021)

Hard to be positive when you look at the ICU system and see every bed bar 1 in the Covid areas taken. No relaxation over the weekend and staff continuing to give up days off to help cover shifts


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## DanFST (Jan 18, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Hard to be positive when you look at the ICU system and see every bed bar 1 in the Covid areas taken. No relaxation over the weekend and staff continuing to give up days off to help cover shifts
		
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Just think, this is still the follow up from those that made poor decisions over the festive period. Providing everything goes as it should, things should never be this bad again. 

You guys got this.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I've had enough of this hatred. You are beyond the pale.
It has been explained by those who know the science , on here it's Ethan, that the first dose gives a high degree of immunity( after X days). Not full, but high enough to protect.
The country is in crisis and it's important to get as many people protected as fast as possible.
If you can't see that 200 single doses protects 200 people , whereas the same 200 doses, two each person, protects 100, then you are being highly , nastily , political. I say that because I do not believe that you are as thick as otherwise someone might think.
Why not try being fair minded for once.
		
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You’ve decided that your guess work over immunity is better than mine. Because even for the scientists, there are a lot of crossed fingers. Also read the things where I give my opinion rather that just relaying what my friends previously said. 

The crux of their argument was that the time frame suggests they were knowingly lied to. They accept they’re PROBABLY benefitting from the first jab. 

Nothing I’ve said suggests I’m stupid unless you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said in relation to my friends’ gripe.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Just think, this is still the follow up from those that made poor decisions over the festive period. Providing everything goes as it should, things should never be this bad again.

You guys got this.
		
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I get that and we all knew Christmas was going to present massive challenges because of the behaviour of the minority. However with the latest mapping our board and our lead consultant we aren't going to see any drop until third week of February and even then it'll be a slow drop off. Not sure how much some, especially the new members of staff and some of the younger ones have left to give


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## pauljames87 (Jan 18, 2021)

Just found out a colleague's wife died from covid last week

How sad. Gutted for him.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 18, 2021)

Powerful piece on BBC news tonight from Royal London. Very much what we're seeing


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Not me, I like to read a balance of posting and i can usually be pretty certain that his postings are the bottom of the baseline and appear to be so just to wind us all up 🤫
		
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Go back and read what I said and see the bits where I said I wouldn’t go down the legal route.

I would also take the jab knowing there’d be a twelve week wait.

I would be annoyed if I was assured that my second jab was going to be in three weeks and then almost the moment I’ve had the first one, they email me to tell me it’s actually in twelve weeks. I’d feel lied to.

Why is no one seeing their annoyance was being lied to over something involving medical consent? Both of these people have to follow very strict rules when they consent their own patients so I’m not surprised it annoyed them. Perhaps their own experience in consenting patients made it feel a sacrosanct process to them and that’s why they were so angry at it being messed with.

Also, this happened a couple of weeks ago now. I haven’t spoken about it since. Out of interest I checked out their Facebook pages earlier and I saw one had commented as a follow up to say he feels more comfortable about it now because more information was provided to him regarding availability of the vaccine and the planned programs after the event. The other hasn’t commented.

But it’s nice to see that those who’d accuse me of trying to illicit an angry response have completely ignored the rational side of what I’ve posted, assumed what my personal position is in the situation (mostly inaccurately) and then backslapped each other in their amazing power of deduction. Tiresome but hey, internet folk are gonna internet.

Maybe we can move on now that I’ve clarified everything and the rest comes down to personal opinion. You can think my friends are selfish but ultimately both have been sitting at home furloughed and just wanted to get back to helping patients which they haven’t been able to do. They aren’t selfish people, they were angered by a very specific part of the situation and are still happy to be safer than they were, both to themselves, their families and their patients.


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## chrisd (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Go back and read what I said and see the bits where I said I wouldn’t go down the legal route.

I would also take the jab knowing there’d be a twelve week wait.

I would be annoyed if I was assured that my second jab was going to be in three weeks and then almost the moment I’ve had the first one, they email me to tell me it’s actually in twelve weeks. I’d feel lied to.

Why is no one seeing their annoyance was being lied to over something involving medical consent? Both of these people have to follow very strict rules when they consent their own patients so I’m not surprised it annoyed them. Perhaps their own experience in consenting patients made it feel a sacrosanct process to them and that’s why they were so angry at it being messed with.

Also, this happened a couple of weeks ago now. I haven’t spoken about it since. Out of interest I checked out their Facebook pages earlier and I saw one had commented as a follow up to say he feels more comfortable about it now because more information was provided to him regarding availability of the vaccine and the planned programs after the event. The other hasn’t commented.

But it’s nice to see that those who’d accuse me of trying to illicit an angry response have completely ignored the rational side of what I’ve posted, assumed what my personal position is in the situation (mostly inaccurately) and then backslapped each other in their amazing power of deduction. Tiresome but hey, internet folk are gonna internet.

Maybe we can move on now that I’ve clarified everything and the rest comes down to personal opinion. You can think my friends are selfish but ultimately both have been sitting at home furloughed and just wanted to get back to helping patients which they haven’t been able to do. They aren’t selfish people, they were angered by a very specific part of the situation and are still happy to be safer than they were, both to themselves, their families and their patients.
		
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Sorry Kellfire but your explanation does nothing in my opinion change my view.

The reason for the changes in administering the jab was clearly for the greater good and I see absolutely no justification for your friends anger. There was no lies, things just changed, they are lucky to get the jab. They were furloughed so they were not working, and there was no certainty that receiving the jab would see a return to work for them as far as I can see. 

Although I have not read everything posted on this issue I sincerely cannot believe anyone would complain and consider legal action for a change that clearly benefits a majority, I further doubt they would be successful in an action anyway.

No one is "back slapping" but you will detect a lack of agreement with your views on this, a position I, and others are entitled to hold.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Go back and read what I said and see the bits where I said I wouldn’t go down the legal route.

I would also take the jab knowing there’d be a twelve week wait.

I would be annoyed if I was assured that my second jab was going to be in three weeks and then almost the moment I’ve had the first one, they email me to tell me it’s actually in twelve weeks. I’d feel lied to.

Why is no one seeing their annoyance was being lied to over something involving medical consent? Both of these people have to follow very strict rules when they consent their own patients so I’m not surprised it annoyed them. Perhaps their own experience in consenting patients made it feel a sacrosanct process to them and that’s why they were so angry at it being messed with.
.
		
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Because it comes across as a massive first world problem/selfish waahmbulance type attitude. And if they're medical professionals, as your post alludes to then its all the worse.
Maybe they could take a leaf out of my 80 year old Aunts book. She had her first jab in December and was all booked for her second. This was then cancelled at short notice. Instead of get angry and entitled about it her attitude was if it means someone else avoids this horrible disease then she's happy to wait.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Positives of vaccination need to be tempered with the current infection and death rates so people don't get complacent. Still a long way to go and much hurt. Latest data not good for UK. Stay safe.
View attachment 34551

Click to expand...

You're Trolling arnt you? That's two cold water posts that you've made today.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Because it comes across as a massive first world problem/selfish waahmbulance type attitude. And if they're medical professionals, as your post alludes to then its all the worse.
Maybe they could take a leaf out of my 80 year old Aunts book. She had her first jab in December and was all booked for her second. This was then cancelled at short notice. Instead of get angry and entitled about it her attitude was if it means someone else avoids this horrible disease then she's happy to wait.
		
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As I keep saying - their main anger stemmed from being lied to, not necessarily the medical reasoning behind it although at the time it was very much seen as a political decision by sizeable amount of people.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			As I keep saying - their main anger stemmed from being lied to, not necessarily the medical reasoning behind it although at the time it was very much seen as a political decision by sizeable amount of people.
		
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But they weren't lied to, after their first jab the policy changed. When they had their initial schedule it was for a quick second follow up but in between the policy changed.  That's not telling lies.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 18, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You’ve decided that your guess work over immunity is better than mine. Because even for the scientists, there are a lot of crossed fingers. Also read the things where I give my opinion rather that just relaying what my friends previously said.

The crux of their argument was that the time frame suggests they were knowingly lied to. They accept they’re PROBABLY benefitting from the first jab.

Nothing I’ve said suggests I’m stupid unless you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said in relation to my friends’ gripe.
		
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As it happens, I had not read your earlier posts about your friends and their proposed legal challenges etc.
I read only the post of yours that I replied to. Why don't you read it, and then you'll see that it is what I said it is. A hate filled political comment .
And I didn't say you were stupid. You are not . But you are readily nasty at the authorities.  I suspect just because they are that. - the ones at present in charge.
You suggested the vaccine policy was not done to save more lives , but for political reasons. Read your last sentence.


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## Kellfire (Jan 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			But they weren't lied to, after their first jab the policy changed. When they had their initial schedule it was for a quick second follow up but in between the policy changed.  That's not telling lies.
		
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The policy didn’t change between the morning they got their first jab and that afternoon when they were told. They were told on the morning that their position as medical professionals would see them get it at the three week marker because of their status as very high risk. They had their first jab after the second jabs had started to be delayed.


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## User62651 (Jan 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You're Trolling arnt you? That's two cold water posts that you've made today.
		
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No, that new data is in the news today, it does make bewildering reading and it is absolutely relevant to how covid is affecting so many of us mentally and impacting in so many other restrictive ways. It is a long road still and worth bearing in mind. Confidence in what you are being officially told is key. You can't easily post in this thread without people reading politics into it because politicians are calling or not calling the shots. 
Vaccine program rollout is being positive PR'd to counter a lot of negative PR, that's just how it is.


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## Beezerk (Jan 18, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Had to click the "show ignored content" to see what you replied to.

Now I remember why I put him on ignore the first time around.
		
Click to expand...

He's gone through a lot recently so I'm prepared to cut him some slack.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			He's gone through a lot recently so I'm prepared to cut him some slack.
		
Click to expand...

Then why does he make these contentious posts that are obviously designed to provoke argument.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			No, that new data is in the news today, it does make bewildering reading and it is absolutely relevant to how covid is affecting so many of us mentally and impacting in so many other restrictive ways. It is a long road still and worth bearing in mind. Confidence in what you are being officially told is key. You can't easily post in this thread without people reading politics into it because politicians are calling or not calling the shots.
Vaccine program rollout is being positive PR'd to counter a lot of negative PR, that's just how it is.
		
Click to expand...

No, it's being positive PR'd because it's some good news in these times of so much bad news.  Why should it to be a counter.

I can only take a guess your real agenda is purely political and you are using these posts to circumnavigate the rules.


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## Old Skier (Jan 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Because it comes across as a massive first world problem/selfish waahmbulance type attitude. And if they're medical professionals, as your post alludes to then its all the worse.
Maybe they could take a leaf out of my 80 year old Aunts book. She had her first jab in December and was all booked for her second. This was then cancelled at short notice. Instead of get angry and entitled about it her attitude was if it means someone else avoids this horrible disease then she's happy to wait.
		
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IF they are medical professionals I’m suprised they are furloughed.


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## drdel (Jan 18, 2021)

I'm wondering if there is a vaccine for good manners?

This thread is reaching new lows ìn debating!


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## Old Skier (Jan 18, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			No, that new data is in the news today, it does make bewildering reading and it is absolutely relevant to how covid is affecting so many of us mentally and impacting in so many other restrictive ways. It is a long road still and worth bearing in mind. Confidence in what you are being officially told is key. You can't easily post in this thread without people reading politics into it because politicians are calling or not calling the shots.
Vaccine program rollout is being positive PR'd to counter a lot of negative PR, that's just how it is.
		
Click to expand...

All though  the UK’s figures need some explanation at a later date to see what and why it happened and not wanting to dwell on it, as we have no idea on what criteria countries used for the figures the graph cannot be looked at as an accurate assessment on how poorly a nation may have done.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You're Trolling arnt you? That's two cold water posts that you've made today.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Then why does he make these contentious posts that are obviously designed to provoke argument.
		
Click to expand...

Irony??


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## Leftitshort (Jan 18, 2021)

drdel said:



			I'm wondering if there is a vaccine for good manners?

This thread is reaching new lows ìn debating!
		
Click to expand...

Normal forum pile on


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## SaintHacker (Jan 18, 2021)

And how life comes along to put things back into perspective. Last year our niece spent some time in a mental health specialist unit while she recovered from an operation, the cause of which had affected her brain function. While there she made friebds with a girl the same age (14) who was going through her own issues and being helped with her demons. We've just found out the girl took her own life yesterday. 15.
Have a good night lads.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 18, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Irony??
		
Click to expand...

Touche


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## Leftitshort (Jan 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Touche
		
Click to expand...

It’s hard to stay positive. We all do it. Daffodils   will be up soon 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 18, 2021)

Going to give this thread a break
Will re open it in the morning


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 19, 2021)

Reopened
No political posts
No bickering

Simples 👍

Members who ignore the above or who push the boundaries will get infractions which could lead to a ban .


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## bobmac (Jan 19, 2021)

Can we criticise punctuation and spelling?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Can we criticise punctuation and spelling?  

Click to expand...

Don’t be a.......


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## Imurg (Jan 19, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Don’t be a.......
View attachment 34560

Click to expand...

OrinocoHen..?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			OrinocoHen..?
		
Click to expand...

No fool, Womble chicken of course 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Then why does he make these contentious posts that are obviously designed to provoke argument.
		
Click to expand...

I might consider it useful to understand that there are some - like his two friends - who take the view they have taken.  It’s not the poster that’s the real problem - and to a large extent not simply the two friends.  But if the two friends are on the front line they actually do have a gripe and a concern...even though they would still most probably have had the vaccination when they did.  We should not forget that the exposure the two have to the virus might be potentially very high and they could be risking their lives daily.  See the BBC News last night from inside the London Hospital.

On reflection.  Whilst not condoning threat to take legal action I can understand anger and concern that some might have. Just saying 😇


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## bobmac (Jan 19, 2021)

The vaccine has no side affects whatsoever


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## Kellfire (Jan 19, 2021)

A tragic story about a friend of a friend was relayed to me last night.

Family of four - two parents with two daughters. Parents in their late 60s, one daughter is 42 and the other is 37. My friend is friends with one of the daughters.

Both parents smoked and have COPD. The mother got Covid and died not long before Christmas after a short battle with the disease.

Both father and eldest daughter were admitted with Covid just before Christmas. The daughter finally died yesterday morning. The father died last night. The eldest daughter has a teenage daughter herself and her dad long ago fled the scene. 

This has left the youngest daughter on her own after having a full extended family just over two months ago.

Yes, all three who died had preexisting medical conditions which made Covid so much more dangerous to them but does anyone think that’s any comfort to those left behind? I’m sick of conspiracy theorists trumpeting this line of “99.7% survival rate” and “it’s just the flu” while the bodies continue to pile up for those who would otherwise be alive. I’m not ready to write people off because they’re not as physically fit as others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2021)

Reading the post from Kellfire got me thinking 

Right now we have a virus that is affecting the respiratory system and the ones most are risk as those people with breathing problems 

So I wonder if it has seen more people stop smoking ? 

My mate owns a couple of shops and we were speaking about it and he says the same people with the same issues still come in for their daily pack of fags 

Trying not to be preachy because I used to smoke until I found out I had asthma but I still find it staggering the amount of people that you still see smoking - yep it’s a vice and addictive which I fully understand but this should be the perfect time to stop . 

And then vaping ? I don’t know enough about the dangers or how safe it is but smoke still going into the lungs in a fashion so again whilst the risk isn’t as high surely there is some there ? 

During the height of the drought a couple years back we actually introduced a smoking ban on the course - it was great to see no fag butts etc.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			.....

During the height of the drought a couple years back we actually introduced a smoking ban on the course - it was great to see no fag butts etc.
		
Click to expand...

Funny you should say that, just before lockdown, had noticed a lot more cigarette butts around the course


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reading the post from Kellfire got me thinking

Right now we have a virus that is affecting the respiratory system and the ones most are risk as those people with breathing problems

So I wonder if it has seen more people stop smoking ?

My mate owns a couple of shops and we were speaking about it and he says the same people with the same issues still come in for their daily pack of fags

Trying not to be preachy because I used to smoke until I found out I had asthma but I still find it staggering the amount of people that you still see smoking - yep it’s a vice and addictive which I fully understand but this should be the perfect time to stop .

And then vaping ? I don’t know enough about the dangers or how safe it is but smoke still going into the lungs in a fashion so again whilst the risk isn’t as high surely there is some there ?

During the height of the drought a couple years back we actually introduced a smoking ban on the course - it was great to see no fag butts etc.
		
Click to expand...

Smoking is clearly a risk factor, not only for respiratory complications, but also vascular and multi-organ. It isn't quite correct to consider Covid as a virus which principally affects the respiratory system. It has systemic effects - broad effects on the whole person - that are inflammatory in nature. This can cause damage to organs and the vasculature. The people who die in the first couple of days tend to die from respiratory complications, but the characteristic course where someone appears to get better but then declines around day 7 is due to a large immune reaction by the body causing wide pared inflammatory effects. This can cause all sorts of bad things. Because the heart and lungs are the organs which are the main engine of the body, multi-organ failure tends to kill you by heart or respiratory failure, or both, but sometimes that is really caused by other organ failure putting pressure on the heart and lungs. 

People who smoke tend to have a heightened state of inflammation at the best of times and are therefore more susceptible to this sort of damage. If they are a Type 2 Diabetic as well, that is a very bad combination.

Unless your hobby is catching knives with your teeth, stopping smoking is still probably the most effective health improvement anyone can make.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			And how life comes along to put things back into perspective. Last year our niece spent some time in a mental health specialist unit while she recovered from an operation, the cause of which had affected her brain function. While there she made friebds with a girl the same age (14) who was going through her own issues and being helped with her demons. We've just found out the girl took her own life yesterday. 15.
Have a good night lads.
		
Click to expand...

Thoughts with your daughter hope she is well.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Reading the post from Kellfire got me thinking

Right now we have a virus that is affecting the respiratory system and the ones most are risk as those people with breathing problems

So I wonder if it has seen more people stop smoking ?
		
Click to expand...

You'd think so, but, I don't know how many recollect, but there were several reports, tv, press, putting forward the view that smokers were *less *affected by Covid?
I think it was a view of David Hockney, the artist.
Here is copy from the Observer paper.
*David Hockney Says Smokers Have Developed an ‘Immune System’ Against Coronavirus*
I don't think he was alone in his view, and I never did see any final verdict..
( if there could be one?).
My view is , that he is wrong, but.........


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Can we criticise punctuation and spelling?  

Click to expand...

certunly 😁


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Reopened
No political posts
No bickering

Simples 👍

Members who ignore the above or who push the boundaries will get infractions which could lead to a ban .
		
Click to expand...

You know I don’t get this forum at times. We all have cabin fever. We are all struggling in some capacity or other. Some a lot more so than others. This forum is a release for some. We mention on some topics how people have to talk. Then launch personal attacks on people when they do. I mentioned the other week that this topic has become the new “ political” thread where it appears it is open season to lay into one another whilst using this topic as a reason to do that. If you did not like someone at Work or anywhere else you would not talk to them you would ignore them. May I suggest doing the same, put them on ignore.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You'd think so, but, I don't know how many recollect, but there were several reports, tv, press, putting forward the view that smokers were *less *affected by Covid?
I think it was a view of David Hockney, the artist.
Here is copy from the Observer paper.
*David Hockney Says Smokers Have Developed an ‘Immune System’ Against Coronavirus*
I don't think he was alone in his view, and I never did see any final verdict..
( if there could be one?).
My view is , that he is wrong, but.........
		
Click to expand...

Had to pop into Tesco to return a phone the other day for me ma. I am In the same queue as e cigs, fags, lottery etc. In front of me was a woman who bought  her 100 cigs, a woman who bought her “ usual” 40, a girl who bought her e cig stuff. The one thing they all had in common. They were not wearing masks.. They had lanyards to say as such. I thought it very odd.

I also find it odd that people that are exempt from wearing masks because of underlying health problems (inc damage caused by smoking) are more vulnerable. Yet are in the supermarkets which are on of the largest spreaders of Covid.
Fortunately I don’t smoke.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			You know I don’t get this forum at times. We all have cabin fever. We are all struggling in some capacity or other. Some a lot more so than others. This forum is a release for some. We mention on some topics how people have to talk. Then launch personal attacks on people when they do. I mentioned the other week that this topic has become the new “ political” thread where it appears it is open season to lay into one another whilst using this topic as a reason to do that. If you did not like someone at Work or anywhere else you would not talk to them you would ignore them. May I suggest doing the same, put them on ignore.
		
Click to expand...

Tash, using your example of the workplace, would you say nothing if the person you are ignoring is telling lies or spreading information that is simply rubbish? Or if 3 people who ignore you are sat together slagging you off about something you said and then twisting it, knowing full well you can hear what is being said, would you sit there and accept it?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 19, 2021)

[QUOTE="Ethan, post: 2295141, The people who die in the first couple of days tend to die from respiratory complications, but the characteristic course where someone appears to get better but then declines around day 7 is due to a large immune reaction by the body causing wide pared inflammatory effects.

Unless your hobby is catching knives with your teeth, stopping smoking is still probably the most effective health improvement anyone can make.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this explanation. May I ask about a query that arises to my laymans mind.When you say a large immune reaction, does that mean you could have a too efficient immune system?  Sounds simplistic and daft, but if someone takes supplements to improve their immune response, I.e vitamin D,
does this possibly cause a problem?
Hope I've put this in a half sensible way😀

BTW - that last sentence of yours---😁😁😁


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You'd think so, but, I don't know how many recollect, but there were several reports, tv, press, putting forward the view that smokers were *less *affected by Covid?
I think it was a view of David Hockney, the artist.
Here is copy from the Observer paper.
*David Hockney Says Smokers Have Developed an ‘Immune System’ Against Coronavirus*
I don't think he was alone in his view, and I never did see any final verdict..
( if there could be one?).
My view is , that he is wrong, but.........
		
Click to expand...

The well known pulmonologist David Hockney. Well, medical science might have to reconsider its position ....

There was some evidence early on that smokers appeared to be less likely to get Covid, but worse affected if they did. I think some of that was confounded, in other words, there were other explanatory factors that led to a spurious association. The general view now is that smoking is an additional risk factor for a bad outcome if you get Covid.


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Thanks for this explanation. May I ask about a query that arises to my laymans mind.When you say a large immune reaction, does that mean you could have a too efficient immune system?  Sounds simplistic and daft, but if someone takes supplements to improve their immune response, I.e vitamin D,
does this possibly cause a problem?
Hope I've put this in a half sensible way😀

BTW - that last sentence of yours---😁😁😁
		
Click to expand...

Yes, essentially it is an over enthusiastic immune response known as cytokine release. It is basically a disorderly release of substances (cytokines) intended to attack intruders which instead damages the host. It happens more in men, which may be the reason women do better with Covid. Some of the drugs recently discussed in the media as good treatments for Covid, for example tocilizumab currently used as a treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, reduce the cytokine release.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			. If they are a Type 2 Diabetic as well, that is a very bad combination.
		
Click to expand...

Very briefly can you explain the T2 Diabetes risk to a layman?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 19, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			A tragic story about a friend of a friend was relayed to me last night.

Family of four - two parents with two daughters. Parents in their late 60s, one daughter is 42 and the other is 37. My friend is friends with one of the daughters.

Both parents smoked and have COPD. The mother got Covid and died not long before Christmas after a short battle with the disease.

Both father and eldest daughter were admitted with Covid just before Christmas. The daughter finally died yesterday morning. The father died last night. The eldest daughter has a teenage daughter herself and her dad long ago fled the scene.

This has left the youngest daughter on her own after having a full extended family just over two months ago.

Yes, all three who died had preexisting medical conditions which made Covid so much more dangerous to them but does anyone think that’s any comfort to those left behind? I’m sick of conspiracy theorists trumpeting this line of “99.7% survival rate” and “it’s just the flu” while the bodies continue to pile up for those who would otherwise be alive. *I’m not ready to write people off because they’re not as physically fit as others.*

Click to expand...

You'll be agreeing vey strongly with Deborah James (a very vocal and cogent advocate of the rights of the very many - young and old - who have significantly compromised immunity due to a serious health/medical condition) in her strong rejection of the views of such as Lord Sumption (a high profile neo-liberal and libertarian).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			...but *the characteristic course where someone appears to get better but then declines around day 7 *is due to a large immune reaction by the body causing wide pared inflammatory effects. This can cause all sorts of bad things. Because the heart and lungs are the organs which are the main engine of the body, multi-organ failure tends to kill you by heart or respiratory failure, or both, but sometimes that is really caused by other organ failure putting pressure on the heart and lungs.
		
Click to expand...

This is precisely the course of what happened to my wife's 90+yr old aunt.  No specific underlying conditions and 'sheltered' from the virus in a care home; diagnosed with Covid-19; after just over a week or so seemed to be getting better; no more than a couple of days later she passed.   Though we do not know the actual cause of her death, I am assuming that it will be along the lines of the immune reaction described.


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## Kellfire (Jan 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You'll be agreeing vey strongly with Deborah James (a very vocal and cogent advocate of the rights of the very many - young and old - who have significantly compromised immunity due to a serious health/medical condition) in her strong rejection of the views of such as Lord Sumption (a high profile -neo-liberal and libertarian).
		
Click to expand...

Yep.


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You'll be agreeing vey strongly with Deborah James (a very vocal and cogent advocate of the rights of the very many - young and old - who have significantly compromised immunity due to a serious health/medical condition) in her strong rejection of the views of such as Lord Sumption (a high profile -neo-liberal and libertarian).
		
Click to expand...

Sumption is in a lobbying group along with some of the Great Barrington crew - Sikora and Gupta. He basically remains a herd immunity advocate.


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Very briefly can you explain the T2 Diabetes risk to a layman?
		
Click to expand...

T2DM is an inflammatory state, so the person with T2DM is more primed to develop severe systemic inflammatory reactions when triggered by Covid.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Tash, using your example of the workplace, would you say nothing if the person you are ignoring is telling lies or spreading information that is simply rubbish? Or if 3 people who ignore you are sat together slagging you off about something you said and then twisting it, knowing full well you can hear what is being said, would you sit there and accept it?
		
Click to expand...

Paul I know exactly what you mean, but at work/ pit you tended to find that people quickly worked out who the “ tittle tattlers” were and they found themselves in ever decreasing circles when it came to having friends, or people that would listen to them. It’s a fair analogy but during this pandemic as I have mentioned it’s been tough for all of us and I just don’t need the negativity. Also some of the comments I have read on here, well let’s just say I would not want four hours on a golf course with them. But in the same sense there have been quite a few posters on here who I could let them watch my rammel golf for four hours and chew the cud righting the worlds wrongs. Eg me and you have not seen eye to eye on topics but it has been a healthy exchange of views. And hopefully one day a beer after a round May endorse that.
That said I have a few forummers on ignore and it has not affected my enjoyment time on here. If anyone don’t enjoy my ramblings, please ignore me.

That aside, stay safe me man.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, essentially it is an over enthusiastic immune response known as cytokine release. It is basically a disorderly release of substances (cytokines) intended to attack intruders which instead damages the host. It happens more in men, which may be the reason women do better with Covid. Some of the drugs recently discussed in the media as good treatments for Covid, for example tocilizumab currently used as a treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, reduce the cytokine release.
		
Click to expand...

😣 lovely, Missis T has just started on Vit D supplements due to ? Bone density. She broke her ankle late last year and assessments showed  Vit D would help. Saving grace she’s she’s a lady.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Paul I know exactly what you mean, but at work/ pit you tended to find that people quickly worked out who the “ tittle tattlers” were and they found themselves in ever decreasing circles when it came to having friends, or people that would listen to them. It’s a fair analogy but during this pandemic as I have mentioned it’s been tough for all of us and I just don’t need the negativity. Also some of the comments I have read on here, well let’s just say I would not want four hours on a golf course with them. But in the same sense there have been quite a few posters on here who I could let them watch my rammel golf for four hours and chew the cud righting the worlds wrongs. Eg me and you have not seen eye to eye on topics but it has been a healthy exchange of views. And hopefully one day a beer after a round May endorse that.
That said I have a few forummers on ignore and it has not affected my enjoyment time on here. If anyone don’t enjoy my ramblings, please ignore me.

That aside, stay safe me man.
		
Click to expand...

I very rarely use the ignore function as it can ruin or make no sense of some threads, people purposely unblocking someone to mock them and have others join in is incredibly childish and only takes any thread one way.

You can still choose to not respond to people you would rather have on ignore.

This thread has been cathartic, even if it has wondered at times, and yesterday there was more abuse on the Justin Thomas thread than this one, but this one gets locked.

Like you say, people can disagree and still debate.

Stay safe mate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 19, 2021)

Remarkable:
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/covi...er-243-days-of-coronavirus-treatment-12192248


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I very rarely use the ignore function as it can ruin or make no sense of some threads, people purposely unblocking someone to mock them and have others join in is incredibly childish and only takes any thread one way.

You can still choose to not respond to people you would rather have on ignore.

This thread has been cathartic, even if it has wondered at times, and yesterday there was more abuse on the Justin Thomas thread than this one, but this one gets locked.

Like you say, people can disagree and still debate.

Stay safe mate.
		
Click to expand...

👍
As I mentioned not 15 mins ago, it’s tough times, Missis T just had a phone call re her dad who has dementia had hold of MIL last night. So that’s a little bit more to deal with At the moment ☹️. That and am painting the flippin kitchen. Tash don’t need stress on here.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2021)

Further positive news

- New daily cases down to 39k, from a peak of nearly 70k.

- 703k total symptomatic infections, down from a peak of 806k this time last week.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351502664870330370
Also some findings about the vaccine 
https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/H1jaK7mkd


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			😣 lovely, Missis T has just started on Vit D supplements due to ? Bone density. She broke her ankle late last year and assessments showed  Vit D would help. Saving grace she’s she’s a lady.
		
Click to expand...

Isnt calcium a good supplement for bone density?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Isnt calcium a good supplement for bone density?
		
Click to expand...

yeah that’s why she has started taking it,  she has broke her ankle a few times and a scan showed there not as strong as they should be. But apparently it’s also a boost for your immunity like sunshine.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Further positive news

- New daily cases down to 39k, from a peak of nearly 70k.

- 703k total symptomatic infections, down from a peak of 806k this time last week.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351502664870330370
Also some findings about the vaccine
https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/H1jaK7mkd

Click to expand...

That's interesting, it doesn't say what the results are after a single jab though, it would be interesting to see the difference.

It makes you think what the future would be like for us if there was no effective vaccine.


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			😣 lovely, Missis T has just started on Vit D supplements due to ? Bone density. She broke her ankle late last year and assessments showed  Vit D would help. Saving grace she’s she’s a lady.
		
Click to expand...

I take a Vit D supplement myself.


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's interesting, it doesn't say what the results are after a single jab though, it would be interesting to see the difference.

It makes you think what the future would be like for us if there was no effective vaccine.
		
Click to expand...

Too early to see the effect of the vaccine, I think, but this fall in cases is the result of the new lockdown (or whatever you want to call it). It works. 

Without a vaccine, we would eventually reach a steady state again where most people had been exposed and the virus couldn't effectively propogate through the community (yes, our old friend herd immunity). A lot of the older ones wouldn't survive that ordeal and quite a few young and old would carry the scars. but it wouldn't be an extinction-level event, and some of the immunity gained by survivors would help with next generation Covid.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 19, 2021)

One of my managers lives in Ireland 

He due to fly home tomorrow

He had covid couple weeks ago, recovered now , been stuck over here since Xmas now

Just got a postive test due to having one to fly so another 10 days isolation starts and no trip home for him


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## Kellfire (Jan 19, 2021)

Got my first jab booked for this Sunday.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Got my first jab booked for this Sunday.
		
Click to expand...

If you don’t mind me asking what group are you in, Are you clinically vulnerable? My wife had a Liver transplant 3 months ago but the transplant team reckon she won’t get hers till the summer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			If you don’t mind me asking what group are you in, Are you clinically vulnerable? My wife had a Liver transplant 3 months ago but the transplant team reckon she won’t get hers till the summer.
		
Click to expand...

My wife is clinically vulnerable and her GP contacted her to say she should be done by end of Feb-Mid March.
The list is on the .Gov website of illness’s listed as vulnerable.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2021)

So the positive cases continue to fall 

Jan 08 the number of positive cases was at 70k

Today’s number at 33k

The lockdown is working - we are punching back against this 

Just need to vaccine to take affect to help bring the daily deaths down


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the positive cases continue to fall

Jan 08 the number of positive cases was at 70k

Today’s number at 33k

The lockdown is working - we are punching back against this

Just need to vaccine to take affect to help bring the daily deaths down
		
Click to expand...

Daily deaths should start to come down as the Christmas and New Year wave of infections washes through - and hopefully the vaccine will sustain the fall.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the positive cases continue to fall

Jan 08 the number of positive cases was at 70k

Today’s number at 33k

The lockdown is working - we are punching back against this

Just need to vaccine to take affect to help bring the daily deaths down
		
Click to expand...

Not here. Cases continue to come into the hospital at an alarming rate. Since 1/11 we've had approx 237 ICU cases (on a normal 19 bed unit - 21 at a push) with 17 deaths. That is just in ICU so the most sick. 

I also suggest looking at the BBC report from the Royal London. That is the daily reality being faced. I'm afraid on the frontline lockdown isn't working


----------



## Kellfire (Jan 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			If you don’t mind me asking what group are you in, Are you clinically vulnerable? My wife had a Liver transplant 3 months ago but the transplant team reckon she won’t get hers till the summer.
		
Click to expand...

 I work for the NHS.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 19, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I work for the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

How you doing. You still on the shop floor. Is it as grim at your trust as it seems at mine at present


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## Ethan (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the positive cases continue to fall

Jan 08 the number of positive cases was at 70k

Today’s number at 33k

The lockdown is working - we are punching back against this

Just need to vaccine to take affect to help bring the daily deaths down
		
Click to expand...

Lockdown works. The virus needs to move to survive. If people don't move, it doesn't move. Not rocket science. The numbers are going in the right direction, and deaths should follow, but there is still plenty of Covid around and any slippage will see this good progress turning around. I think it will take a while for vacc to have an effect. The people currently getting vacc'd are not those driving infection rates.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Lockdown works. The virus needs to move to survive. If people don't move, it doesn't move. Not rocket science. The numbers are going in the right direction, and deaths should follow, but there is still plenty of Covid around and any slippage will see this good progress turning around. I think it will take a while for vacc to have an effect. The people currently getting vacc'd are not those driving infection rates.
		
Click to expand...

It must a very hard balance act to understand when to start to ease things 

Was listening to some on the radio who says at the current rate we will have the positive cases below 10k by the end of Jan and then half again by middle of Feb and then half term will hit and then they deaths will also be down - plus all the at risk groups and over 70’s will have the vaccine

It’s fingers crossed 🤞 that it goes that way which will allow A tier system to be brought back in 

That imo allows them the flexibility instead


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not here. Cases continue to come into the hospital at an alarming rate. Since 1/11 we've had approx 237 ICU cases (on a normal 19 bed unit - 21 at a push) with 17 deaths. That is just in ICU so the most sick.

*I also suggest looking at the BBC report from the Royal London. *That is the daily reality being faced. I'm afraid on the frontline lockdown isn't working
		
Click to expand...

I mentioned the other day about listening to the drs  and nurses re what they have to deal with to hammer the message home. The last two days seeing the BBC at Royal London was truly heartbreaking. Some of them poor sods are going to be scared for life.

Staysafe Homer me man.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 19, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I work for the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

Oh right...I thought you would of had it sooner tbh.


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## Beezerk (Jan 19, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Got my first jab booked for this Sunday.
		
Click to expand...

When is the second jab booked in for? 😯😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351522001035407363
really good thread about the vaccine effective against all variants of the virus 👍


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## larmen (Jan 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That imo allows them the flexibility instead
		
Click to expand...

I think flexibility would work when people would go from lockdown to ‘normal’. But nearly all across the world people have shown that they go to ‘over the top’, throwing the gains of the lockdown down the drain.


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## Imurg (Jan 19, 2021)

On a slight downer...its rapidly approaching the day when I will have lost 200 working days since the first lockdown last year...
Fortunately I've been getting the Govt grants but the bigger concern for me is the massive backlog of tests for the kids.
If we don't get going again until March the system will be about 6/7 months behind and some of the kids will have been waiting for over a year to take their driving test.
It'll take years to get back to normal.


----------



## bobmac (Jan 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			On a slight downer...
It'll take years to get back to normal.
		
Click to expand...

On a slight upper, you're going to be busy.
Every cloud.........


----------



## anotherdouble (Jan 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			On a slight downer...its rapidly approaching the day when I will have lost 200 working days since the first lockdown last year...
Fortunately I've been getting the Govt grants but the bigger concern for me is the massive backlog of tests for the kids.
If we don't get going again until March the system will be about 6/7 months behind and some of the kids will have been waiting for over a year to take their driving test.
It'll take years to get back to normal.
		
Click to expand...

And you still haven’t got to scratch 🤣


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## JamesR (Jan 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			On a slight upper, you're going to be busy.
Every cloud.........

Click to expand...

...and the roads may be a bit safer for a little longer


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## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			On a slight downer...its rapidly approaching the day when I will have lost 200 working days since the first lockdown last year...
Fortunately I've been getting the Govt grants but the bigger concern for me is the massive backlog of tests for the kids.
If we don't get going again until March the system will be about 6/7 months behind and some of the kids will have been waiting for over a year to take their driving test.
It'll take years to get back to normal.
		
Click to expand...

It will be eye opening when” normality” returns. I saw a stat earlier on re how many crown court cases Have been cancelled. I should imagine Chuck in magistrates courts, backlog in the NHS. I think normality is a few years away.


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## Imurg (Jan 19, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			And you still haven’t got to scratch 🤣
		
Click to expand...

Coz i can't bloody well play
And I don't want to be busy...I've been trying to go part time for a year.....


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## IainP (Jan 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Coz i can't bloody well play
And I don't want to be busy..*.I've been trying to go part time for a year.....*

Click to expand...

You've exceeded expectations 😐🤨😉😁


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## Imurg (Jan 19, 2021)

IainP said:



			You've exceeded expectations 😐🤨😉😁
		
Click to expand...

Not according to the number of people on my books...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 19, 2021)

One for Ethan - https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...l-raises-questions-about-uk-strategy-12192751


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## Kellfire (Jan 19, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			When is the second jab booked in for? 😯😉
		
Click to expand...


Eleven weeks later.


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## DanFST (Jan 19, 2021)

Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here. 

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear this. Not a great deal I can say to help but keep posting and vent if necessary. Far too young for a life to end.


----------



## Kellfire (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

Awful. Sorry to hear that.


----------



## chellie (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

Awful


----------



## pokerjoke (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

That’s very sad mate,way too young


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes words just don’t seem appropriate, thoughts with you at this time Dan

A good pal of mine, worked with him at Harworth pit for 10 years. His partners funeral tomorrow through Covid. Am not going for obvious reasons. Sent him best wishes and all that.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

That’s really sad.
What a waste of a young life.
Mental health is going to be a big problem in the future.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s really sad.
What a waste of a young life.
*Mental health is going to be a big problem in the future.*

Click to expand...

It's a big problem NOW!


----------



## GaryK (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't been active on the forum for a long time, but been keeping up with some of the threads - this one in particular.
Seeing the original post about your mate and the sad, sad update - all I can say is I'm so sorry for your experience.
I'm absolutely certain that had you been able to, you would have done all in your power to help your mate.
Please don't get down on yourself by thinking that you could have done something.

The original post - even without what has now happened, just hammers it home what so many people are going through.
Especially the fantastic NHS heroes who are working their backsides off, being on the frontline putting themselves at risk, AND the relentless horrors that they are seeing on a daily basis.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 19, 2021)

Another grim report from Royal London hospital on BBC 10 O’Clock news.  Needs to be shown and needs to be seen by all.


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## larmen (Jan 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			On a slight downer...its rapidly approaching the day when I will have lost 200 working days since the first lockdown last year...
Fortunately I've been getting the Govt grants but the bigger concern for me is the massive backlog of tests for the kids.
If we don't get going again until March the system will be about 6/7 months behind and some of the kids will have been waiting for over a year to take their driving test.
It'll take years to get back to normal.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that, I thought I have seen driving schools around here, masked up and gloved up. Or is it just tests which are not taken?


I am actually thinking about getting a CBT, do they work at the moment?
I am looking for jobs slightly out of London, not fancying the commute in. A lot of money which is enough for a scooter and petrol with a much shorter commute time wise.


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## GaryK (Jan 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			On a slight downer...its rapidly approaching the day when I will have lost 200 working days since the first lockdown last year...
Fortunately I've been getting the Govt grants but the bigger concern for me is the massive backlog of tests for the kids.
If we don't get going again until March the system will be about 6/7 months behind and some of the kids will have been waiting for over a year to take their driving test.
It'll take years to get back to normal.
		
Click to expand...

My son had his practical originally booked for mid-Nov which obviously got cancelled.
Was then at the back of the queue for late March 2021, but managed to get a cancellation for end of December 2020 - cancelled.
Now it's back to end of April (if he's lucky!).

Really feel for him (and the thousands like him) - ok, not a big problem compared to the bigger picture, but this along with being messed around with regarding school & exams (was due to sit his BTECs) the other week which were supposedly still going ahead after Boris' announcement. Fortunately they too got cancelled, but only the day before he was due to sit them.
No wonder the younger generation are struggling with mental health!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

Awful news.  Sorry .


----------



## Stuart_C (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

Terrible news Dan, thoughts are with you.

Try to stay positive and strong during these tough times, if you need a chat just shout.

My pm’s are always open 👍🏻


----------



## hovis (Jan 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			It's a big problem NOW!
		
Click to expand...

We probably get around 5 calls a year to assist the police or ambulance with a suicide.  We've had 3 this year already


----------



## Jimaroid (Jan 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

Awful news. Look after yourself, don’t despair. I know these words mean little right now but if you need it there are plenty of people here to talk to.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			One for Ethan - https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...l-raises-questions-about-uk-strategy-12192751

Click to expand...

Short version: They looked too soon. Needed to leave it another week. 

Longer version: 
This study was a case control study, which provides less persuasive data than a randomised controlled trial. You need to be certain that the controls are selected in a way that resembles the elements that matter. You may not even know what all of those factors are. In an RCT of adequate size, that is not a concern, because the unknown factors should be distributed evenly. 

Second, I think they looked too soon. The text of the report says: "Then we looked to see what is the daily positivity rate... And we saw that there was no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated until day 14 post-vaccination. But on day 14 post-vaccination, a drop of 33% in positivity was witnessed in the vaccinated group and not in the unvaccinated... this is really good news."

This suggests their primary analysis was on day 14. That is just after the lines separate. A week later it would have been much more convincing. Then after the booster, it jumps to 95%. Highly unlikely if 33% was the first shot ceiling. You can see the lines separate much more with time. 

Third, sounds like they were looking at tests alone rather than tests and cases. Doing so captures a larger number, including those who were incubating when they got the shot, and asymptomatic, as well as false positives with old virus. This will dilute any perceived treatment effect. By the time of the second shot, that virus has cleared off and you get a clean treatment effect. In contrast, Pfizer required a PCR test AND characteristic symptoms.


----------



## PNWokingham (Jan 20, 2021)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...arliest-date-gradual-easing-restrictions.html

i hope this is wrong. Very depressing


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## pauljames87 (Jan 20, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...arliest-date-gradual-easing-restrictions.html

i hope this is wrong. Very depressing
		
Click to expand...

It's the daily racist. It's 90% wrong


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## Slab (Jan 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's the daily racist. It's 90% wrong
		
Click to expand...

But on the plus side they regularly have photos of ladies sunbathing with headlines like 'Gosport is hotter than the Gobi Desert!' with the temperature written inside a cartoon smiling sun


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## Imurg (Jan 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			Sorry to hear that, I thought I have seen driving schools around here, masked up and gloved up. Or is it just tests which are not taken?


I am actually thinking about getting a CBT, do they work at the moment?
I am looking for jobs slightly out of London, not fancying the commute in. A lot of money which is enough for a scooter and petrol with a much shorter commute time wise.
		
Click to expand...

There shouldn't be anything going on at all since this lockdown came in. Up to the lessons and tests were happening in T3 and below but not T4.
But since 5th Jan the only learners allowed on the road are those driving with someone from their household and only on an essential journey. No going to  Tesco then taking the hour long route home when you're 5 minutes down the road, although I'm sure this happens.
Any instructor giving lessons now runs the risk of prosecution and potential removal of their licence to teach.
Motorbikes are off too as are Theory tests...the whole system has ground to a halt.


----------



## SaintHacker (Jan 20, 2021)

Vaccination halted at Newbury racecourse today so horse racing can go ahead. Really? God forbid ladbrokes lose any money even during a global pandemic...


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Vaccination halted at Newbury racecourse today so horse racing can go ahead. Really? God forbid ladbrokes lose any money even during a global pandemic...

Click to expand...

Christ, is that true?. How the  hell did the vaccination people choose the venue on that basis?


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## Imurg (Jan 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Christ, is that true?. How the  hell did the vaccination people choose the venue on that basis?
		
Click to expand...

Rooter would know...maybe there isn't another suitable site in the area that can deal with the numbers.
Would have been better if the racing was called off for a day.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...arliest-date-gradual-easing-restrictions.html

i hope this is wrong. Very depressing
		
Click to expand...

Well, it should be a warning to people that unless they get their act together, this will not end anytime soon. It says in the piece that there will not be a relaxation other than schools. If they are serious about breaking this crisis, they need to keep schools off too. Schools send a signal that normality is returning, and the current plan for lateral flow testing daily is fraught with problems. We have seen the effects of failing to really get control before. Lets not repeat the mistake. 

Perhaps the could sell a longer set of restrictions on the 'suffer a bit now, maybe have a summer holiday later' basis.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Christ, is that true?. How the  hell did the vaccination people choose the venue on that basis?
		
Click to expand...

Talk about getting our priorities right.
What a joke, while people are dying.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2021)

Horse Racing is one of the elite sports that are being allowed to carry on - and it’s not just at the benefit for bookings, there is a lot of people behind that rely on these meets to go ahead , it’s huge financially for a lot of people. 

It was always planned and believe NHS were aware before Newbury offered to host it as a vaccine hub. Also believe that other provisions have been made so that vaccine program still happens and a plan is being put into place to ensure that both can happen . Everything is happening very quickly for a lot of people.

We do need to stop reacting to headlines and also understand that there is lot of consequences when things stopped.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2021)

Weather a bit mixed this week, but certainly appears as if there are a few less cars on the road and the car park at our main shopping centre is quieter.

This is only based on my local area and my impressions since Christmas as I exercise roughly around the same time everyday.

Others areas may differ.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

The racing issue is an interesting one, given the role of Cheltenham in getting the pandemic off to a racing start, and the closeness of some Govt figures to the racing community. From a vaccination point of view, it probably causes little harm, because supply of vaccine is the rate limiting step right now, so, to borrow a racing term, the vaccinators are having to pace themselves anyway. From an optics point of view, it looks a bit bad, though. I assume it is a behind closed doors, social distancing, made for TV and betting event.


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## Beezerk (Jan 20, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Weather a bit mixed this week, but certainly appears as if there are a few less cars on the road and the car park at our main shopping centre is quieter.

This is only based on my local area and my impressions since Christmas as I exercise roughly around the same time everyday.

Others areas may differ.

Click to expand...

Not sure where you drove mate but the A1 between Metro Centre and Newton Aycliffe was rammed again this morning,  just like it has been since the end of the last lockdown. Strangley though the traffic further south around Leeds and Manchester is definitely quieter.


----------



## 2blue (Jan 20, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure where you drove mate but the A1 between Metro Centre and Newton Aycliffe was rammed again this morning,  just like it has been since the end of the last lockdown. Strangley though the traffic further south around Leeds and Manchester is definitely quieter.
		
Click to expand...

The local roads in Leeds are still pretty busy from what I can see but, as you suggest, the motorways in the area have lighter traffic.
A hell of a lot of folk walking in the local parks. With & without dogs etc.


----------



## rudebhoy (Jan 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Horse Racing is one of the elite sports that are being allowed to carry on - and it’s not just at the benefit for bookings, there is a lot of people behind that rely on these meets to go ahead , it’s huge financially for a lot of people.

It was always planned and believe NHS were aware before Newbury offered to host it as a vaccine hub. Also believe that other provisions have been made so that vaccine program still happens and a plan is being put into place to ensure that both can happen . Everything is happening very quickly for a lot of people.

We do need to stop reacting to headlines and also understand that there is lot of consequences when things stopped.
		
Click to expand...


Surely the fixture could have been switched to a different venue though?


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Christ, is that true?. How the  hell did the vaccination people choose the venue on that basis?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it's true but apparently this was agreed in advance prior to the racecourse allowing the venue to be used.


----------



## rudebhoy (Jan 20, 2021)

Really worrying study just came out from Israel.

They have looked at 200,000 recipients of the Pfizer vaccine (over 60s), and are reporting that after 2 weeks the vaccine only gave 33% more protection than those who hadn't had the jab. The decision here to delay giving the second jab was based on an assumption the figure would be much higher.

Israel is sticking with the manufacturer's recommended 3 week gap. I really hope we reverse policy as do the same, even if it means I will have to wait a lot longer for the first jab.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...l-raises-questions-about-uk-strategy-12192751


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## road2ruin (Jan 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Really worrying study just came out from Israel.

They have looked at 200,000 recipients of the Pfizer vaccine (over 60s), and are reporting that after 2 weeks the vaccine only gave 33% more protection than those who hadn't had the jab. The decision here to delay giving the second jab was based on an assumption the figure would be much higher.

Israel is sticking with the manufacturer's recommended 3 week gap. I really hope we reverse policy as do the same, even if it means I will have to wait a lot longer for the first jab.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...l-raises-questions-about-uk-strategy-12192751

Click to expand...

See post 14,820


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure where you drove mate but the A1 between Metro Centre and Newton Aycliffe was rammed again this morning,  just like it has been since the end of the last lockdown. Strangley though the traffic further south around Leeds and Manchester is definitely quieter.
		
Click to expand...

Only around Seaham mate, normally around rush hour/school starting etc and this week seems less cars moving about.🤷‍♂️


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

Round our area (Wokingham), you can get quite snarly traffic in the morning commute. My wife went in yesterday and noted that it was really quiet, like a weekend morning.


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## GB72 (Jan 20, 2021)

Seems to really vary round where I work. Definitely quieter during the day (main road outside my office window). Certainly quieter on the drive home but it is busy 2 or 3 mornings a week.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Short version: They looked too soon. Needed to leave it another week.

Longer version:
This study was a case control study, which provides less persuasive data than a randomised controlled trial. You need to be certain that the controls are selected in a way that resembles the elements that matter. You may not even know what all of those factors are. In an RCT of adequate size, that is not a concern, because the unknown factors should be distributed evenly.

Second, I think they looked too soon. The text of the report says: "Then we looked to see what is the daily positivity rate... And we saw that there was no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated until day 14 post-vaccination. But on day 14 post-vaccination, a drop of 33% in positivity was witnessed in the vaccinated group and not in the unvaccinated... this is really good news."

This suggests their primary analysis was on day 14. That is just after the lines separate. A week later it would have been much more convincing. Then after the booster, it jumps to 95%. Highly unlikely if 33% was the first shot ceiling. You can see the lines separate much more with time.

Third, sounds like they were looking at tests alone rather than tests and cases. Doing so captures a larger number, including those who were incubating when they got the shot, and asymptomatic, as well as false positives with old virus. This will dilute any perceived treatment effect. By the time of the second shot, that virus has cleared off and you get a clean treatment effect. In contrast, Pfizer required a PCR test AND characteristic symptoms.
		
Click to expand...

hopefully you are right, but this does seem to have raised worries.

will be interesting to see if they provide an update after 3 weeks.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Physio mate topped himself this morning. I saw it coming. Posted it on here.

Lockdown meant I couldn't do s**t. 28 year old gone.
		
Click to expand...

It makes you look at yourself and wonder if you could have done something to help, it's absolutely horrible.  I lost a family member to suiside and understand how you must be feeling.   Take care.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			hopefully you are right, but this does seem to have raised worries.

will be interesting to see if they provide an update after 3 weeks.
		
Click to expand...

Interestingly, that 33% number came from one of the two health insurers in Israel. The other one, which is also doing vaccination and taking part n the same review have reported a higher number for the effects. Times of Israel

This illustrates that these real world studies are messy and less well controlled than proper randomised studies. Studies of these size (hundred of thousands) have enormous statistical power to produce tight results and should not produce different results unless the people involved are different or there are other structural biases. Until we see peer reviewed detailed data, I am sticking with the numbers for the Pfizer randomised trials used for approval.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Jan 20, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Rooter would know...maybe there isn't another suitable site in the area that can deal with the numbers.
Would have been better if the racing was called off for a day.
		
Click to expand...

Agree. Once the venue was chosen as a vaccination centre , the authorities should have made sure it was available continually until the over 65s and vulnerables were done.


----------



## road2ruin (Jan 20, 2021)

From the racecourses point of view, the racing is their income and it was made aware to the NHS that (at this point) they would not be operating the vaccine hub on the same day, this was accepted so it's not a sudden surprise. Apparently they're looking at ways of having the racing and the vaccinations working on the same day going forward.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			From the racecourses point of view, the racing is their income and it was made aware to the NHS that (at this point) they would not be operating the vaccine hub on the same day, this was accepted so it's not a sudden surprise. Apparently they're looking at ways of having the racing and the vaccinations working on the same day going forward.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think they have thought that through. Its going to be a bit tricky to stab the jockeys as they are thundering by.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Interestingly, that 33% number came from one of the two health insurers in Israel. The other one, which is also doing vaccination and taking part n the same review have reported a higher number for the effects. Times of Israel

This illustrates that these real world studies are messy and less well controlled than proper randomised studies. Studies of these size (hundred of thousands) have enormous statistical power to produce tight results and should not produce different results unless the people involved are different or there are other structural biases. Until we see peer reviewed detailed data, I am sticking with the numbers for the Pfizer randomised trials used for approval.
		
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Yes, as this is your field, no doubt you are right.
I only read the report briefly, but I noticed something that made me wonder ( in my laymans limitations). There was something said that xx number of the vaccinated who were found to be positive were not showing symptoms, but the virus was present, as opposed to those with symptoms.
I understand this vaccination does not act as a "force field" , keeping the vaccine away from you, but more it acts that the virus may be with you but your body doesn't become ill with it. .i.e. the antibodies successfully fight it off.?
If that's right, then this report seems iffy to me.
Then again, I know three quarters of bugger all on the subject really😁


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## bobmac (Jan 20, 2021)

I planned on losing 2 stone during the lockdown, only 3 stone to go.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, as this is your field, no doubt you are right.
I only read the report briefly, but I noticed something that made me wonder ( in my laymans limitations). There was something said that xx number of the vaccinated who were found to be positive were not showing symptoms, but the virus was present, as opposed to those with symptoms.
I understand this vaccination does not act as a "force field" , keeping the vaccine away from you, but more it acts that the virus may be with you but your body doesn't become ill with it. .i.e. the antibodies successfully fight it off.?
If that's right, then this report seems iffy to me.
Then again, I know three quarters of bugger all on the subject really😁
		
Click to expand...

The vaccine provides an immunological response to the virus. Rather than let it start to take over all your cells, the vacc should stop it in its tracks and not let it spread to the point you get symptoms. You could still test positive, though, as the likely entry point is the nasopharynx and that is where testing samples. Most of the people who tested positive or got Covid in this study did so in the very early days around vaccination when we all know it wouldn't be effective. In some cases, the PCR may be picking up dead virus that the vaccine has stimulated your immune system to deal with. And even if you are vaccinated and your immune system is primed and ready to act, if you touch a door knob that someone has coughed on and then another object that someone else later touches, you may still pick up and pass on the virus even though it doesn't affect you. 

It also sounds that the Israeli study used a simple test rather than use a test plus symptoms like in the Pfizer study, but the main problem is they tested a bit too soon.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The vaccine provides an immunological response to the virus. Rather than let it start to take over all your cells, the vacc should stop it in its tracks and not let it spread to the point you get symptoms. You could still test positive, though, as the likely entry point is the nasopharynx and that is where testing samples. Most of the people who tested positive or got Covid in this study did so in the very early days around vaccination when we all know it wouldn't be effective. In some cases, the PCR may be picking up dead virus that the vaccine has stimulated your immune system to deal with. And even if you are vaccinated and your immune system is primed and ready to act, if you touch a door knob that someone has coughed on and then another object that someone else later touches, you may still pick up and pass on the virus even though it doesn't affect you.

It also sounds that the Israeli study used a simple test rather than use a test plus symptoms like in the Pfizer study, but the main problem is they tested a bit too soon.
		
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Got it - Thanks.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 20, 2021)

The below just a snippet why I find it harder and harder to care, or trust what media says. 

From the BBC daily live reporting: 
"The Covid-19 vaccine developed by Pfizer and BioNTech *appears to protect against a coronavirus variant which is rapidly spreading across the UK*.

*The variant has mutations which it is feared may reduce the effectiveness of vaccines.*

*But a study, which has not yet been peer reviewed, has suggested this is not the case."*

So it starts with concluding that there's a new variant of the virus that the vaccines, as far as we know it, will work on. But they have to chuck in scare curve ball, before again giving evidence which, although not peer reviewed, suggests that the new variant isn't to be more worried about. 

Where this fear of the vaccine not being as effective comes from I do not know. I'm gonna hazard a guess it's from the journalist and the editor to keep the clicks coming.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			The below just a snippet why I find it harder and harder to care, or trust what media says.

From the BBC daily live reporting:
"The Covid-19 vaccine developed by Pfizer and BioNTech *appears to protect against a coronavirus variant which is rapidly spreading across the UK*.

*The variant has mutations which it is feared may reduce the effectiveness of vaccines.*

*But a study, which has not yet been peer reviewed, has suggested this is not the case."*

So it starts with concluding that there's a new variant of the virus that the vaccines, as far as we know it, will work on. But they have to chuck in scare curve ball, before again giving evidence which, although not peer reviewed, suggests that the new variant isn't to be more worried about. 

Where this fear of the vaccine not being as effective comes from I do not know. I'm gonna hazard a guess it's from the journalist and the editor to keep the clicks coming. 

Click to expand...

...or you could say that what the BBC reported is both sides/opinion of the debate/argument - alternatives for 'balance'.

A millstone that the BBC has to carry around - and that finds it having to give 'airtime' to assertions and beliefs to balance facts from expert community.  Of course we know where that has come from and to where it has led us, but upon which I cannot expand further.  I don't see it as a problem specific to the BBC - and I do not blame the BBC.  Suffice to say that the extremes of it has corrupted public debate and understanding of the management of the coronavirus pandemic.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			The below just a snippet why I find it harder and harder to care, or trust what media says.

From the BBC daily live reporting:
"The Covid-19 vaccine developed by Pfizer and BioNTech *appears to protect against a coronavirus variant which is rapidly spreading across the UK*.

*The variant has mutations which it is feared may reduce the effectiveness of vaccines.*

*But a study, which has not yet been peer reviewed, has suggested this is not the case."*

So it starts with concluding that there's a new variant of the virus that the vaccines, as far as we know it, will work on. But they have to chuck in scare curve ball, before again giving evidence which, although not peer reviewed, suggests that the new variant isn't to be more worried about. 

Where this fear of the vaccine not being as effective comes from I do not know. I'm gonna hazard a guess it's from the journalist and the editor to keep the clicks coming. 

Click to expand...


I do feel a bit for some of the science writers who are looking to convey information that has a lot of complexities to a general audience. And the way science often works is to get it wrong, then a bit less wring and eventually sort of correct, but it can be a seemingly contradictory course. 

It has been believed in scientific circles for a while that the new forms of vaccine, mRNA and vectors with the spike protein genomes would provide better broad coverage than some old style vaccines which were somewhat strain specific. It is still likely that in time new strains will evolve which require modified vaccines, so I suspect that we will see vaccine boosters more like firmware updates with updates and refined genomes rather than simply to extend the effectiveness.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...or you could say that what the BBC reported is both sides/opinion of the debate/argument - alternatives for 'balance'.

A millstone that the BBC has to carry around - and that finds it having to give 'airtime' to assertions and beliefs to balance facts from expert community.  Of course we know where that has come from and to where it has led us, but upon which I cannot expand further.  Suffice to say it has corrupted public debate and understanding of the management of the coronavirus pandemic.
		
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If there had been some sort of reference to as where this fear comes from then all good. Now, no. 

In regards to your bigger point in your post, I'm not gonna get into it with you as I know where it leads. Let's just say that you and I are not in the same corner on this.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I do feel a bit for some of the science writers who are looking to convey information that has a lot of complexities to a general audience. And the way science often works is to get it wrong, then a bit less wring and eventually sort of correct, but it can be a seemingly contradictory course.

It has been believed in scientific circles for a while that the new forms of vaccine, mRNA and vectors with the spike protein genomes would provide better broad coverage than some old style vaccines which were somewhat strain specific. It is still likely that in time new strains will evolve which require modified vaccines, so I suspect that we will see vaccine boosters more like firmware updates with updates and refined genomes rather than simply to extend the effectiveness.
		
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That is perfectly fine! I know that the science change with new emerging data etc, but in this particular instance I mean that perhaps it could be written in another way or at least have some sort of reference to as to where the fear comes from. 

But of course hard to get things perfect in a world where speed is of the essence to get the live updates out.


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## GB72 (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I do feel a bit for some of the science writers who are looking to convey information that has a lot of complexities to a general audience. And the way science often works is to get it wrong, then a bit less wring and eventually sort of correct, but it can be a seemingly contradictory course.

It has been believed in scientific circles for a while that the new forms of vaccine, mRNA and vectors with the spike protein genomes would provide better broad coverage than some old style vaccines which were somewhat strain specific. It is still likely that in time new strains will evolve which require modified vaccines, so I suspect that we will see vaccine boosters more like firmware updates with updates and refined genomes rather than simply to extend the effectiveness.
		
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I have to say that your postings on the vaccine have been a massive help. I know that you speak your mind and so I feel inherently more confident when you post positively on something like this (especially when there are negative press reports going around). So, anyway, thanks for that, it does help me keep a more positive disposition.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			That is perfectly fine! I know that the science change with new emerging data etc, but in this particular instance I mean that perhaps it could be written in another way or at least have some sort of reference to as to where the fear comes from.

But of course hard to get things perfect in a world where speed is of the essence to get the live updates out.
		
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Well, I don't think the bits you have highlighted are that bad, you can find much worse coverage pretty easily. 

The key word in the whole story is 'appears', the vaccine _appears_ to protect ..... 

Lets break it down. 

There are concerns about mutations and new variants, that is true, although there have been tens of thousands of variants identified so far, the vast majority of which are very similar to each other. The virus undergoes evolution, which is mostly random errors in the genetic code creating slightly different versions because the virus goes through generations incredibly fast. The mutations that reduce the virus's ability to spread or attach die out, and the ones which improve its viral fitness then take over. 

There have been fears voiced that the vaccine may not work with these. That is true, although probably not reflecting the real experts in virology and vaccinology. 

The study appears to suggest these fears re not justified. That is also true, as is the qualifier that it has not been peer-reviewed, meaning it hasn't been pressure tested for its design, conduct and conclusions. Sometimes preliminary studies are altered by the comments made by peer reviewers. 

So I don't think this was a terrible news story. They are always a bit clickbaity these days but the content was OK if not exactly compelling.


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## azazel (Jan 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...or you could say that what the BBC reported is both sides/opinion of the debate/argument - alternatives for 'balance'.

A millstone that the BBC has to carry around - and that finds it having to give 'airtime' to assertions and beliefs to balance facts from expert community.  Of course we know where that has come from and to where it has led us, but upon which I cannot expand further.  I don't see it as a problem specific to the BBC - and I do not blame the BBC.  Suffice to say that the extremes of it has corrupted public debate and understanding of the management of the coronavirus pandemic.
		
Click to expand...

If I say it's raining and you say it isn't, it's not the BBC's or any other journalist's job to tell the public what we say, it's their job to go outside and check.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...or you could say that what the BBC reported is both sides/opinion of the debate/argument - alternatives for 'balance'.

A millstone that the BBC has to carry around - and that finds it having to give 'airtime' to assertions and beliefs to balance facts from expert community.  Of course we know where that has come from and to where it has led us, but upon which I cannot expand further.  I don't see it as a problem specific to the BBC - and I do not blame the BBC.  Suffice to say that the extremes of it has corrupted public debate and understanding of the management of the coronavirus pandemic.
		
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Maybe the news should just be that!
Report the facts as they have happened that’s news as I understand it.
So no need to put the other side.

By all means put both sides in as many programmes as they like and discuss to their heart’s content.
But keep all speculation off the news!


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## larmen (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I don't think they have thought that through. Its going to be a bit tricky to stab the jockeys as they are thundering by.
		
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There is an American dentist that might be able to help. And a soon to be ex-presidents son.
(Or did they just shot stationary animals?)


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## bobmac (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Short version: They looked too soon. Needed to leave it another week.

Longer version:
This study was a case control study, which provides less persuasive data than a randomised controlled trial. You need to be certain that the controls are selected in a way that resembles the elements that matter. You may not even know what all of those factors are. In an RCT of adequate size, that is not a concern, because the unknown factors should be distributed evenly.

Second, I think they looked too soon. The text of the report says: "Then we looked to see what is the daily positivity rate... And we saw that there was no difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated until day 14 post-vaccination. But on day 14 post-vaccination, a drop of 33% in positivity was witnessed in the vaccinated group and not in the unvaccinated... this is really good news."

This suggests their primary analysis was on day 14. That is just after the lines separate. A week later it would have been much more convincing. Then after the booster, it jumps to 95%. Highly unlikely if 33% was the first shot ceiling. You can see the lines separate much more with time.

Third, sounds like they were looking at tests alone rather than tests and cases. Doing so captures a larger number, including those who were incubating when they got the shot, and asymptomatic, as well as false positives with old virus. This will dilute any perceived treatment effect. By the time of the second shot, that virus has cleared off and you get a clean treatment effect. In contrast, Pfizer required a PCR test AND characteristic symptoms.
		
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When you joind the forum over 11 years ago, I wonder if you ever thought the forum would be so interested in what you did for a living.  
Keep up the good work


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2021)

azazel said:



			If I say it's raining and you say it isn't, it's not the BBC's or any other journalist's job to tell the public what we say, it's their job to go outside and check.
		
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That is indeed what you'd hope of them...and I believe what they try and do.  However we know the power of what some individuals would prefer to believe even when faced with the facts.

I fear that not putting the 'other side' - regardless of what the other side actually is or is based upon - just leads to claims of BBC bias or scaremongering.  And that just seems to be were we have got to - most unfortunately.  However if other outlets I watch, listen and read (see @Ethan  ) report very similar or the same as the BBC then I am OK that what the BBC is saying is not deliberate or even unconscious bias.

Anyway...enough of that - and back to watching NBC News


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			When you joind the forum over 11 years ago, I wonder if you ever thought the forum would be so interested in what you did for a living.  
Keep up the good work
		
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Thanks, Bob. I wish the circumstances that led to all this discussion had never occurred and instead we were all exercised about whether Justin Thomas was being treated fairly or if well-fed golfers should wear white belts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Thanks, Bob. I wish the circumstances that led to all this discussion had never occurred and instead we were all exercised about whether Justin Thomas was being treated fairly or if well-fed golfers should wear white belts.
		
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Since we are at it I'll pass my thanks also - your explanation of what can happen in respect of cytokines after about 7 days really helped my wife understand what happened to her aunt - and explain to her mum.  She knew about the effect cytokines can have but hadn't put 2 and 2 together for her aunt as she seemed to be recovering.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 20, 2021)

Over 1800 deaths reported yesterday


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Over 1800 deaths reported yesterday 

Click to expand...

Expected, though, with the lag between cases and deaths. Would expect art to come down from here very soon.


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## chellie (Jan 20, 2021)

Todays update from our local hospital 

Dr. Gardner said in today’s announcement, ‘We have got more Covid-positive patients this week than we had last week. The numbers are steadily rising. Some 130 patients are on general wards at the Vic, 20 are at the Clifton, while 19 are in intensive care beds at the Vic. The intensive care unit has doubled in size and now has 32 beds when they are usually 16.


Seriously ill patients are now being transferred to other hospitals. ‘Those transfers are used in order to make sure we have got capacity at every site across the county. Some seriously ill patients have been moved to hospitals in Preston or Blackburn, and vice versa, while some routine operations have also been axed as medics battle the coronavirus.’


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## hovis (Jan 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Over 1800 deaths reported yesterday 

Click to expand...

But at least we got to have a merry Xmas ey!!!! 🤨


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 20, 2021)

chellie said:



			Todays update from our local hospital 

Dr. Gardner said in today’s announcement, ‘We have got more Covid-positive patients this week than we had last week. The numbers are steadily rising. Some 130 patients are on general wards at the Vic, 20 are at the Clifton, while 19 are in intensive care beds at the Vic. The intensive care unit has doubled in size and now has 32 beds when they are usually 16.


Seriously ill patients are now being transferred to other hospitals. ‘Those transfers are used in order to make sure we have got capacity at every site across the county. Some seriously ill patients have been moved to hospitals in Preston or Blackburn, and vice versa, while some routine operations have also been axed as medics battle the coronavirus.’
		
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Mirrors what I am seeing. We were forced to get rid of several ICU Covid patients to Oxford and plans to move several tonight as far as Milton Keynes as we have no ICU beds at all either in the hot covid zones or our cold (non-covid) zone. We have no capacity to move anywhere else and be functional/safe.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 20, 2021)

hovis said:



			But at least we got to have a merry Xmas ey!!!! 🤨
		
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I was reading a thing the other day where the “ experts” are not to sure that the one day free for all on Christmas Day has had any effect on the recent numbers 😳
That aside, if this is protecting the NHS then am playing off scratch.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 20, 2021)

Open question for the folks working in the NHS and Italian outcast.

Ave been keeping in touch with friends in Italy. Alfredo ended up in intensive care for 6 weeks. He has now been moved to a non Covid hospital for his Physio. Bottom line, They have Hospitals that deal with Covid only. Other hospitals are dealing with non Covid injuries and illnesses. Would it of made a difference in the UK doing that or is our system not set up for that.


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## GB72 (Jan 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Open question for the folks working in the NHS and Italian outcast.

Ave been keeping in touch with friends in Italy. Alfredo ended up in intensive care for 6 weeks. He has now been moved to a non Covid hospital for his Physio. Bottom line, They have Hospitals that deal with Covid only. Other hospitals are dealing with non Covid injuries and illnesses. Would it of made a difference in the UK doing that or is our system not set up for that.
		
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I think we have some non covid hospitals in the UK. I am sure that my local hospital in Grantham was designated non covid


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Open question for the folks working in the NHS and Italian outcast.

Ave been keeping in touch with friends in Italy. Alfredo ended up in intensive care for 6 weeks. He has now been moved to a non Covid hospital for his Physio. Bottom line, They have Hospitals that deal with Covid only. Other hospitals are dealing with non Covid injuries and illnesses. Would it of made a difference in the UK doing that or is our system not set up for that.
		
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My MiL had a cancer related op last Friday in a designated covid free hospital. Whether that is happening across the country I don't know but it is up here.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My MiL had a cancer related op last Friday in a designated covid free hospital. Whether that is happening across the country I don't know but it is up here.
		
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👍 excellent news indeed.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 20, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I think we have some non covid hospitals in the UK. I am sure that my local hospital in Grantham was designated non covid
		
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Reason I ask, Alfredo was in ICU, then was transferred to a breathing/ pulmonary ward. He was then after a week being transferred to a physio ward but had to have a Covid test. I asked why he never had one when being transferred to the pulmonary ward. Alfredo’s wife mentioned the pulmonary ward is in the Covid hospital. The physio one is not and they don’t want Covid in there.


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## upsidedown (Jan 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Open question for the folks working in the NHS and Italian outcast.

Ave been keeping in touch with friends in Italy. Alfredo ended up in intensive care for 6 weeks. He has now been moved to a non Covid hospital for his Physio. Bottom line, They have Hospitals that deal with Covid only. Other hospitals are dealing with non Covid injuries and illnesses. Would it of made a difference in the UK doing that or is our system not set up for that.
		
Click to expand...

Yip had an op in Oct in Covid free hospital in Shrewsbury 😉👍


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## ExRabbit (Jan 21, 2021)

Just re-re-booked a short holiday in York from this Easter to October. It was meant to be for my 60th last October - re-booked to Easter - and we haven't had a proper break since 2018.

No chance it would happen, so made the change now when it didn't cost too much.

Hopefully we can book something else this Summer, even if we have to get our tent out again! 

Not a big deal in the scale of things, but posting by the thread title.


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## chrisd (Jan 21, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Reason I ask, Alfredo was in ICU, then was transferred to a breathing/ pulmonary ward. He was then after a week being transferred to a physio ward but had to have a Covid test. I asked why he never had one when being transferred to the pulmonary ward. Alfredo’s wife mentioned the pulmonary ward is in the Covid hospital. The physio one is not and they don’t want Covid in there.
		
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We have 3 hospitals in a hub in East Kent and I have an appointment at the one in Canterbury on Friday where I might have surgery/treatment while I'm there for an emergency appointment, and i believe they keep the Covid patients at the other two hospitals.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 21, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Mirrors what I am seeing. We were forced to get rid of several ICU Covid patients to Oxford and plans to move several tonight as far as Milton Keynes as we have no ICU beds at all either in the hot covid zones or our cold (non-covid) zone. We have no capacity to move anywhere else and be functional/safe.
		
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Are the Nightingale hospitals still sitting empty because of a lack of staff?


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## backwoodsman (Jan 21, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			The below just a snippet why I find it harder and harder to care, or trust what media says.

From the BBC daily live reporting:
"The Covid-19 vaccine developed by Pfizer and BioNTech *appears to protect against a coronavirus variant which is rapidly spreading across the UK*.

*The variant has mutations which it is feared may reduce the effectiveness of vaccines.*

*But a study, which has not yet been peer reviewed, has suggested this is not the case."*

So it starts with concluding that there's a new variant of the virus that the vaccines, as far as we know it, will work on. But they have to chuck in scare curve ball, before again giving evidence which, although not peer reviewed, suggests that the new variant isn't to be more worried about. 

Where this fear of the vaccine not being as effective comes from I do not know. I'm gonna hazard a guess it's from the journalist and the editor to keep the clicks coming. 

Click to expand...

The trouble with what's  presented in the media is that it depends on what "you" hear just as much as what "they" say. Your three lines could easily be  reduced to 

There are new variants of the virus
Sone people think the vaccine wont be effective
They are wrong

Obviously the sensible media can't deal in absolutes unless there are actual absolutes to report. But the piece needs the "negative" middle sentence. If it just said "There are new variants. But the vaccine still works",  everyone would be saying "Why are you telling us the vaccine still works? Why shouldn't it work? Is there a risk it won't?  What are you not telling us?" . Most of the time the media is on a hiding to nothing.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 21, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			The trouble with what's  presented in the media is that it depends on what "you" hear just as much as what "they" say. Your three lines could easily be  reduced to

There are new variants of the virus
Sone people think the vaccine wont be effective
They are wrong

Obviously the sensible media can't deal in absolutes unless there are actual absolutes to report. But the piece needs the "negative" middle sentence. If it just said "There are new variants. But the vaccine still works",  everyone would be saying "Why are you telling us the vaccine still works? Why shouldn't it work? Is there a risk it won't?  What are you not telling us?" . Most of the time the media is on a hiding to nothing.
		
Click to expand...

Very true. The one just in my example is probably not the best example, I'll give you that. Even so, when I read it at the time, it stood out. I guess for me, it's a thing that has been built up gradually over the last few years, so not only in relations to this matter. Personally fed up with it, but yeah, it's a bigger question, and one that probably not best to get started on here.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 21, 2021)

chrisd said:



			We have 3 hospitals in a hub in East Kent and I have an appointment at the one in Canterbury on Friday where I might have surgery/treatment while I'm there for an emergency appointment, and i believe they keep the Covid patients at the other two hospitals.
		
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our local main hospital is both, apart from the massive rise in Covid admissions and deaths. It seems to be doing well In terms of performanc. Missis T keeps in touch with her ex colleagues and it’s a grim picture though


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 21, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Very true. The one just in my example is probably not the best example, I'll give you that. Even so, when I read it at the time, it stood out. I guess for me,* it's a thing that has been built up gradually over the last few years, so not only in relations to this matter. Personally fed up with it, but yeah, it's a bigger question, and one that probably not best to get started on here*. 

Click to expand...

Absolutely


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## pauljames87 (Jan 21, 2021)

All go in our house today 

Father in law symtoms gone for test 

Mother in law gone for test aswell 

If she's postived (their in our support bubble due to child under 1) we have to isolate for 10 days as we saw her within 48 hours of a postive test etc 

However if FIL tests positive and Mil negative we don't 

With me so far? Lol 

Then 11:30 get a call from daughters pre school .. postive case yesterday so she needs to isolate for 10 days 

ATM eldest is isolating 

We aren't 

Could all change in next few days 

Confusing times


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2021)

Yesterday, over 363,000 people were reported to have received the first dose of the vaccine in the UK. 

This is the highest daily figure since Covid vaccinations began.


Currently they are doing 200 a minute and it’s expected to ramp up 

Still on course for the middle of Feb for the groups 1-4 to be completed 

Cases is many areas dropping


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 21, 2021)

Tough day again. Still full and still having to juggle staff and patients and still forced to send the less sick to other trusts now as capacity reached.


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## Ethan (Jan 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yesterday, over 363,000 people were reported to have received the first dose of the vaccine in the UK.

This is the highest daily figure since Covid vaccinations began.


Currently they are doing 200 a minute and it’s expected to ramp up

Still on course for the middle of Feb for the groups 1-4 to be completed

Cases is many areas dropping
		
Click to expand...

It does seem to be going at a good pace. I am a bit worried about dips in supply though. That is the rate limiting step and for the more youthful oldies, we need things to keep moving. Still haven't heard back if they want me to help yet. I guess they think not, or perhaps not yet.


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## road2ruin (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It does seem to be going at a good pace. I am a bit worried about dips in supply though.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this, at present the vaccination roll out seems to be going exactly to plan however the big unknown is the supply and when we have the inevitable slow down in supply how long that actually lasts for and so what impact that has on the schedule.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree with this, at present the vaccination roll out seems to be going exactly to plan however the big unknown is the supply and when we have the inevitable slow down in supply how long that actually lasts for and so what impact that has on the schedule.
		
Click to expand...

Right now, we are dependent on Pfizer to start, then AZ. Moderna doesn't come through until April. If Johnson & Johnson get approval for their one shot regimen, expected in the US in Feb, that could fill a hole and on a one and done basis, clear a few people off the books.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 22, 2021)

just heard that police had to raid a wedding party at a school in North London with 400 people attending!!


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## Beezerk (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just heard that police had to raid a wedding party at a school in North London with 400 people attending!!
		
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Jesus Christ, what were they thinking?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Tough day again. Still full and still having to juggle staff and patients and still forced to send the less sick to other trusts now as capacity reached.
		
Click to expand...

Very worrying situation...my wife spoke yesterday evening with the Team lead who she does bank work for.  Sounds like hospital is at breaking point.  Full of Covid patients - with so many nurses sick or isolating, nurse managers now scouring all non-critical nursing/clinical teams for nurses they can pull onto wards...and wife's old team is one such team.  The nurses in that team haven't done any critical care or ward work for many years - and quite frankly are frightened.  They should not be getting pulled onto covid wards - they just don't have the training. 

That it appears the hospital didn't, or wasn't able to, recruit new staff following the first wave, or train existing non-ward staff up for some of the basics they'd need to do if required on wards for a second wave, rather beggars belief.  No doubt the finger will be pointed at the hospital management.

My wife is very worried for her old team lead and her friends on that team.


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just heard that police had to raid a wedding party at a school in North London with 400 people attending!!
		
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Give em all a £10k fine


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just heard that police had to raid a wedding party at a school in North London with 400 people attending!!
		
Click to expand...

I, Mr Superspreader, take you, Ms Superspreader, to be my lawfully wedded patient in a double bedded room, to cough and to suffocate, for better or for worse oxygen saturation, for long Covid or for other inflammatory complications, in ICU and in the Nightingale Hospital, until death do us part, which might be quite soon.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 22, 2021)

And, I imagine, there "will be no evidence" that the Police  officer who died  contracted the virus during the course of his duties trying to sort out  Covid rule breakers!
Front line officers and ambulance crew, paramedics etc , who are likely to come into contact with these people through work should get the vaccine double quick.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 22, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Give em all a £10k fine
		
Click to expand...

 i think the organiser got that - not sure if the rest were hit with the new 800s etc


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## PNWokingham (Jan 22, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55764673


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## Beezerk (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i think the organiser got that - not sure if the rest were hit with the new 800s etc
		
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A lot of them fled when the police arrived so will have avoided the fine.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i think the organiser got that - not sure if the rest were hit with the new 800s etc
		
Click to expand...

like a lot of things being implemented it starts next week. Never from now or tomorrow always in days or weeks time


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			A lot of them fled when the police arrived so will have avoided the fine.
		
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5 fined as well as the organisers Looks like a rather low return. Do the cops not have body cameras around that part of London?. At least, they should identify attendees and require them to self-isolate for 10 days under penalty of a proper fine.


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## 2blue (Jan 22, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Tough day again. Still full and still having to juggle staff and patients and still forced to send the less sick to other trusts now as capacity reached.
		
Click to expand...




SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very worrying situation...my wife spoke yesterday evening with the Team lead who she does bank work for.  Sounds like hospital is at breaking point.  Full of Covid patients - with so many nurses sick or isolating, nurse managers now scouring all non-critical nursing/clinical teams for nurses they can pull onto wards...and wife's old team is one such team.  The nurses in that team haven't done any critical care or ward work for many years - and quite frankly are frightened.  They should not be getting pulled onto covid wards - they just don't have the training.

That it appears the hospital didn't, or wasn't able to, recruit new staff following the first wave, or train existing non-ward staff up for some of the basics they'd need to do if required on wards for a second wave, rather beggars belief.  No doubt the finger will be pointed at the hospital management.

My wife is very worried for her old team lead and her friends on that team.
		
Click to expand...

My daughter reports very similar at Bradford.......  oh, dear I fear for the Snowdrops on here losing more petals.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 22, 2021)

Sports and media "personalities" getting caught breaking Covid protocols and issuing press releases saying how sorry they are.
What they really meant was "Damn we got caught.  These rules don't apply to us do they?   We'll have to be more careful next time."

Just to show it's not a UK thing, four of the top hockey players from the Washington Capitals got caught ignoring the rules earlier this week.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55764673

Click to expand...

Absolutely disgusting, I don’t think the School statement of not knowing the School Hall had been hired for a wedding holds much water either! Why are they hiring it out in these times anyway without multiple checks.


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2021)

Rather than the police going in to deal with them, they should have just padlocked the doors and kept them there for the 14 day quarantine period.


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## JamesR (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i think the organiser got that - not sure if the rest were hit with the new 800s etc
		
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think how much money could go into the NHS's pot if everyone breaking the rules got punitive fines, rather than a mere £800


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## patricks148 (Jan 22, 2021)

wife sister lives in Welwyn Garden City and told her about a funeral with 500 attending no SD or masks, police just stood by in the last week

https://www.whtimes.co.uk/news/welwyn-garden-city-funeral-herts-police-6921284


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## 2blue (Jan 22, 2021)

JamesR said:



			think how much money could go into the NHS's pot if everyone breaking the rules got punitive fines, rather than a mere £800
		
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Naaah.... not from the similar ideas I've read about before.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 22, 2021)

Very positive news on the UK’s R Number, let’s hope it start of the end, no matter how far off that end is.


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## JackDuncan (Jan 22, 2021)

I lost my job during the quarantine, so I feel desperate. The good news is that I'm still healthy.


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## bobmac (Jan 22, 2021)

JackDuncan said:



			I lost my job during the quarantine, so I feel desperate. The good news is that I'm still healthy.
		
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And now you've got time to work on your short game. 
Good luck with finding another job soon


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55768033

👏 lockdown is helping beat this virus - R number below 1 is good news and it’s only to keep going further down over the next month. Shining lights


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 22, 2021)

2blue said:



			My daughter reports very similar at Bradford.......  oh, dear I fear for the Snowdrops on here losing more petals. 

Click to expand...

Having the day from hell as is the unit. Arguably the worse of the whole pandemic. Been here since 6.00am and just got a break so thought I'd see what's been happening and have some downtime. We are full in ICU and sadly waiting on two beds to become available the worse way possible. Definitely doesn't feel like any ray of light shining on us. At least some of the comments on here have brought a smile to my face.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Having the day from hell as is the unit. Arguably the worse of the whole pandemic. Been here since 6.00am and just got a break so thought I'd see what's been happening and have some downtime. We are full in ICU and sadly waiting on two beds to become available the worse way possible. Definitely doesn't feel like any ray of light shining on us. At least some of the comments on here have brought a smile to my face.
		
Click to expand...

Keep the chin up, cases numbers falling, even in Reading, so hossy and ICU admissions would be about a week behind that, and deaths a bit further behind that.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Keep the chin up, cases numbers falling, even in Reading, so hossy and ICU admissions would be about a week behind that, and deaths a bit further behind that.
		
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Can I quote you!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352645440139890696
10% of Adults have now had the vaccine 👏


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2021)

2blue said:



			My daughter reports very similar at Bradford.......  oh, dear I fear for the Snowdrops on here losing more petals. 

Click to expand...

Worryingly also in respect of a hospital's ability to move patients to other hospitals in the area/region my wife's hospital is in the same part of the country as @Homers - not the same county but only 35 miles apart.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2021)

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

Vaccine Dashboard to keep up to date with the current status


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## SatchFan (Jan 22, 2021)

Really nice weather for my exercise ration today. All roads were very quiet, the local shopping centre was a ghost town and I didn't see a single Jewish wedding.


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## road2ruin (Jan 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely disgusting, I don’t think the School statement of not knowing the School Hall had been hired for a wedding holds much water either! Why are they hiring it out in these times anyway without multiple checks.
		
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_The mayor of Hackney, Philip Glanville, said he was "deeply disappointed" that the wedding party had taken place, despite "the number of lives that have already been lost in the Charedi community and across the borough".

He added: *"Unfortunately, similar events have taken place even at this venue before *and we need to be really clear how unacceptable it is._

The school should have been fined £10,000 as well IMO especially as they have previous. This would also act as a warning to those who are happy to hire out without asking questions or at least making checks.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			5 fined as well as the organisers Looks like a rather low return. Do the cops not have body cameras around that part of London?. At least, they should identify attendees and require them to self-isolate for 10 days under penalty of a proper fine.
		
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Yes, something more than what was done, you feel.
What about surrounding them with army etc and telling them that they are staying put and isolating for a fortnight. The organisers could set up food arrangements. No doubt they have telephones.
If only it could have been done


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 22, 2021)

Use water canon with dye in it. The police can either round them up later or everyone around will know just how stupid they are for days to come.

I know it wouldn't happen but it's a nice thought 😁


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, something more than what was done, you feel.
What about surrounding them with army etc and telling them that they are staying put and isolating for a fortnight. The organisers could set up food arrangements. No doubt they have telephones.
If only it could have been done
		
Click to expand...

There are many examples where one couple caused outbreaks affecting dozens. 400 people could cause an outbreak that would change the national picture. It is utterly reckless and self-unaware and whoever did it damn well knew it was way past illegal. The school should be ashamed of itself, and know well that this was an illegal gathering which would put their community at risk. A GP from this area commented on this case on doctors social media and said that this was not an isolated example around that area, although it may have been the biggest.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are many examples where one couple caused outbreaks affecting dozens. 400 people could cause an outbreak that would change the national picture. It is utterly reckless and self-unaware and whoever did it damn well knew it was way past illegal. The school should be ashamed of itself, and know well that this was an illegal gathering which would put their community at risk. A GP from this area commented on this case on doctors social media and said that this was not an isolated example around that area, although it may have been the biggest.
		
Click to expand...

Did the gp explain why people were ignoring the rules? Not just the 400 idiots but the other cases they suggest?

I can't get my head around it. 

On an upbeat note my wife has just checked the numbers locally and apparently we have just 4 infections right now in my town. The numbers have been low for a while but this is the best yet.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2021)

Chief Medical Officer says a Corner has been turned 👏 next couple of weeks are really going to be crucial and key to Tier systems being introduced sooner rather than later


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## Kellfire (Jan 22, 2021)

The variant that has been making a lot of the news this past few weeks may be linked to higher mortality, as per today’s news. Just need to make sure we don’t let things slip now and let it sneak back up again.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 22, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The variant that has been making a lot of the news this past few weeks may be linked to higher mortality, as per today’s news. Just need to make sure we don’t let things slip now and let it sneak back up again.
		
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It will sneak up again when things get opened up again albeit hopefully slowly.
The vaccine is key ,even when everyone has had both which is probably 6 months away it can still be passed.
I think someone has mentioned before we will have to live with it and adapt accordingly.


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## bobmac (Jan 22, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The variant that has been making a lot of the news this past few weeks may be linked to higher mortality, as per today’s news. Just need to make sure we don’t let things slip now and let it sneak back up again.
		
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Was this the quote?.....
"It is a realistic possibility that the new UK variant increases the risk of death, but there is considerable remaining uncertainty''.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did the gp explain why people were ignoring the rules? Not just the 400 idiots but the other cases they suggest?

I can't get my head around it.

On an upbeat note my wife has just checked the numbers locally and apparently we have just 4 infections right now in my town. The numbers have been low for a while but this is the best yet.
		
Click to expand...

I think it is cultural factors, shared by the attendees at the event in the news.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did the gp explain why people were ignoring the rules? Not just the 400 idiots but the other cases they suggest?

I can't get my head around it.

On an upbeat note my wife has just checked the numbers locally and apparently we have just 4 infections right now in my town. The numbers have been low for a while but this is the best yet.
		
Click to expand...

Quote:

"These celebrations are happening all over Stamford Hill and NW London unfortunately. The police engage in a bit of finger wagging and people budget the fines into the cost of their wedding/ barmitzvah etc. It is bloody shocking behaviour and noone will do anything - not sure why. On a Saturday I can no longer walk around the corner to sit in my lonely mum’s garden (with her inside- we are a bubble but feel unsafe to meet properly) because of the crowds of people in the streets on the way to worship (believe me, for worship also read socialise) Not a mask in sight. 

Last time I tried I nearly got knocked down as I was forced to walk in the road. I saw at least 2 small premises rammed with worshippers and a few outdoor closed gazebos full of flowers ready for a party. None of this is hidden. All in plain sight. It is maddening. There was a letter recently to the community from some high up police person saying we might caution wrongdoers the first time. But each celebration member will only be making one party so this was hot air. Oh and many don’t have TV, internet and only read newspapers produced by their own community so it is hard to get through to them. There is the ‘will of God’ attitude to catching Covid and /or dying. No thought for the world around them or the people who may need to treat them. Oh and many are anti vax."


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Quote:

"These celebrations are happening all over Stamford Hill and NW London unfortunately. The police engage in a bit of finger wagging and people budget the fines into the cost of their wedding/ barmitzvah etc. It is bloody shocking behaviour and noone will do anything - not sure why. On a Saturday I can no longer walk around the corner to sit in my lonely mum’s garden (with her inside- we are a bubble but feel unsafe to meet properly) because of the crowds of people in the streets on the way to worship (believe me, for worship also read socialise) Not a mask in sight.

Last time I tried I nearly got knocked down as I was forced to walk in the road. I saw at least 2 small premises rammed with worshippers and a few outdoor closed gazebos full of flowers ready for a party. None of this is hidden. All in plain sight. It is maddening. There was a letter recently to the community from some high up police person saying we might caution wrongdoers the first time. But each celebration member will only be making one party so this was hot air. Oh and many don’t have TV, internet and only read newspapers produced by their own community so it is hard to get through to them. There is the ‘will of God’ attitude to catching Covid and /or dying. No thought for the world around them or the people who may need to treat them. Oh and many are anti vax."
		
Click to expand...

Is there a head scratching or head exploding emoji? 

The police need to patrol this area en masse for the next few weeks and get heavy with people. If fines won't stop them then start arresting and take people away. It's mind boggling.


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## Kellfire (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Quote:

"These celebrations are happening all over Stamford Hill and NW London unfortunately. The police engage in a bit of finger wagging and people budget the fines into the cost of their wedding/ barmitzvah etc. It is bloody shocking behaviour and noone will do anything - not sure why. On a Saturday I can no longer walk around the corner to sit in my lonely mum’s garden (with her inside- we are a bubble but feel unsafe to meet properly) because of the crowds of people in the streets on the way to worship (believe me, for worship also read socialise) Not a mask in sight.

Last time I tried I nearly got knocked down as I was forced to walk in the road. I saw at least 2 small premises rammed with worshippers and a few outdoor closed gazebos full of flowers ready for a party. None of this is hidden. All in plain sight. It is maddening. There was a letter recently to the community from some high up police person saying we might caution wrongdoers the first time. But each celebration member will only be making one party so this was hot air. Oh and many don’t have TV, internet and only read newspapers produced by their own community so it is hard to get through to them. There is the ‘will of God’ attitude to catching Covid and /or dying. No thought for the world around them or the people who may need to treat them. Oh and many are anti vax."
		
Click to expand...

The will of god argument is brilliant. So god didn’t allow doctors and scientists to do their thing - must be the devil’s professions.


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## chellie (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Quote:

"These celebrations are happening all over Stamford Hill and NW London unfortunately. The police engage in a bit of finger wagging and people budget the fines into the cost of their wedding/ barmitzvah etc. It is bloody shocking behaviour and noone will do anything - not sure why. On a Saturday I can no longer walk around the corner to sit in my lonely mum’s garden (with her inside- we are a bubble but feel unsafe to meet properly) because of the crowds of people in the streets on the way to worship (believe me, for worship also read socialise) Not a mask in sight. 

Last time I tried I nearly got knocked down as I was forced to walk in the road. I saw at least 2 small premises rammed with worshippers and a few outdoor closed gazebos full of flowers ready for a party. None of this is hidden. All in plain sight. It is maddening. There was a letter recently to the community from some high up police person saying we might caution wrongdoers the first time. But each celebration member will only be making one party so this was hot air. Oh and many don’t have TV, internet and only read newspapers produced by their own community so it is hard to get through to them. There is the ‘will of God’ attitude to catching Covid and /or dying. No thought for the world around them or the people who may need to treat them. Oh and many are anti vax."
		
Click to expand...

Sadly it's the same in certain areas of Lancashire.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 22, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			It will sneak up again when things get opened up again albeit hopefully slowly.
The vaccine is key ,even when everyone has had both which is probably 6 months away it can still be passed.
I think someone has mentioned before we will have to live with it and adapt accordingly.
		
Click to expand...

Ethan not long ago described the route to what amounts to herd immunity, such as we have with flu. If enough have the vaccine then we will make conditions such that the vaccine will survive, but hardly. It will try to increase but find it harder and harder, and so become as prevalent as the flu.
So, I don't think we will have to adapt too much at all . 
Just so long as we all play our part to get there.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 22, 2021)

If today was anything to go by then we are in a micro bubble. Full, and now moved to yet another theatre and so capacity now 44. We had beds for 48 last time and only got to 42. The trust as a whole has seen Covid numbers increase significantly in the last 24 hours and deaths are up. We are still working on a synopsis much as Ethan laid out earlier and the trust model doesn't see this plateauing for at least a month. My next fear will be rushing back to tier systems and the public not learning any lessons and so by April we'll have gone backwards again until everyone can get the full dosage of the vaccine. It has to change soon. I really can't do too many more shifts like today.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Ethan not long ago described the route to what amounts to herd immunity, such as we have with flu. If enough have the vaccine then we will make conditions such that the vaccine will survive, but hardly. It will try to increase but find it harder and harder, and so become as prevalent as the flu.
So, I don't think we will have to adapt too much at all .
Just so long as we all play our part to get there.
		
Click to expand...

That’s the end game - for it to be like flu , it will still take lives mainly the vunerable, people will still catch it and suffer for a couple of days etc but we will grow immunity to it with the help of the vaccine ensuing as many as the vunerable get protected.

It’s hard to look forward but the biggest hurdle to get over will be the mental impact and also the financial impact of the virus - that could end up being a harder hit


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352698567304105986


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 22, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The will of god argument is brilliant. So god didn’t allow doctors and scientists to do their thing - must be the devil’s professions.
		
Click to expand...

Well if it is found that many worshippers and places of worship are not adhering to the rules then the government knows exactly what it can do - and that isn't waiting to see how the trend of infection goes - they shut down all places of worship immediately - with no advance lead time given as none is necessary.  Dead easy.  In a pandemic, he who waits acts too late.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 22, 2021)

Forgive the naive question, but how does your immunity work if you have had COVID? I’m assuming it’s not like having the vaccine, but your body has fought it off once so is there some level of protection?

My wife had a positive test I’ve Christmas and we were in the house together all of the time after that so I am assuming that I caught it too. I wouldn’t say I had any symptoms worse than a slight headache


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## Fade and Die (Jan 22, 2021)

chellie said:



			Sadly it's the same in certain areas of Lancashire.
		
Click to expand...

Same in Whitechapel this afternoon, Mosque sensibly closed, Cultural Centre rammed

Edit: For the Mod who edited my post, it’s a very popular hadith....
https://www.carleton.edu/chaplain/news/trust-in-god-and-tie-your-camel/


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



_The mayor of Hackney, Philip Glanville, said he was "deeply disappointed" that the wedding party had taken place, despite "the number of lives that have already been lost in the Charedi community and across the borough"._

_He added: *"Unfortunately, similar events have taken place even at this venue before *and we need to be really clear how unacceptable it is._

The school should have been fined £10,000 as well IMO especially as they have previous. This would also act as a warning to those who are happy to hire out without asking questions or at least making checks.
		
Click to expand...

If there is evidence of similar events then those in charge of the venue need to have their control of it removed, by whatever means necessary, and a message needs to be sent.


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## Slime (Jan 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just heard that police had to raid a wedding party at a school in North London with 400 people attending!!
		
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JamesR said:



			Give em all a £10k fine
		
Click to expand...

Not enough.
I'd have every single one of them sterilised ......................................... to stop the future spread of STUPID.


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## Slime (Jan 22, 2021)

Oh, I'd also have every one of them named and shamed.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 22, 2021)

Slime said:



			Oh, I'd also have every one of them named and shamed.
		
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But the sad thing is they clearly have no shame


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## pauljames87 (Jan 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			All go in our house today 

Father in law symtoms gone for test 

Mother in law gone for test aswell 

If she's postived (their in our support bubble due to child under 1) we have to isolate for 10 days as we saw her within 48 hours of a postive test etc 

However if FIL tests positive and Mil negative we don't 

With me so far? Lol 

Then 11:30 get a call from daughters pre school .. postive case yesterday so she needs to isolate for 10 days 

ATM eldest is isolating 

We aren't 

Could all change in next few days 

Confusing times
		
Click to expand...

Best of the situation we could ask for so far

The in law's are negative so no need to isolate but also their ok which is main thing 

Daughter is isolating for next week , rest of house can come and go unless she gets sick so fingers crossed

Seems fine tho

Time will tell


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 22, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Forgive the naive question, but how does your immunity work if you have had COVID? I’m assuming it’s not like having the vaccine, but your body has fought it off once so is there some level of protection?

My wife had a positive test I’ve Christmas and we were in the house together all of the time after that so I am assuming that I caught it too. I wouldn’t say I had any symptoms worse than a slight headache
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully, Ethan will explain fully. I know what you mean, in that my little dog is sick and I've been speaking to vet a lot recently. He was away for a while( thought a few days off) and turns out when he came back that he had been isolating. His wife had Covid, and he had had no symptoms whatever.
He couldn't see how he could not have had it, in house with children too,etc.
So he was going to have a antibody test . Spoke days later, the test was negative.
As the Yanks say, "Go Figure".
If I had to bet, knowing next to nowt about it, I would plump for-
1. He had it with no symptoms and he had the antibody test too early for them to show. Or
2. Somehow he escaped infection when he "should" have got infected.

If you have had Covid then you will have antibodies for some while after.
The vaccine will bolster that, giving more / longer protection. This is what I understood Prof Whitby said today
Just my opinion. 
Ethan will clarify 😀


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 22, 2021)

This morning we got the phone call we'd been hoping we wouldn't get. Mrs Colch's dad phoned to say that he couldn't breathe and needed help. Immediately got on to 999 and had paramedics with him within 9 minutes who got him on oxygen and took him back in to hospital. Now back to keeping our fingers crossed that he'll make it though this.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			This morning we got the phone call we'd been hoping we wouldn't get. Mrs Colch's dad phoned to say that he couldn't breathe and needed help. Immediately got on to 999 and had paramedics with him within 9 minutes who got him on oxygen and took him back in to hospital. Now back to keeping our fingers crossed that he'll make it though this.
		
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Thoughts with you all me man.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hopefully, Ethan will explain fully. I know what you mean, in that my little dog is sick and I've been speaking to vet a lot recently. He was away for a while( thought a few days off) and turns out when he came back that he had been isolating. His wife had Covid, and he had had no symptoms whatever.
He couldn't see how he could not have had it, in house with children too,etc.
So he was going to have a antibody test . Spoke days later, the test was negative.
As the Yanks say, "Go Figure".
If I had to bet, knowing next to nowt about it, I would plump for-
1. He had it with no symptoms and he had the antibody test too early for them to show. Or
2. Somehow he escaped infection when he "should" have got infected.

If you have had Covid then you will have antibodies for some while after.
The vaccine will bolster that, giving more / longer protection. This is what I understood Prof Whitby said today
Just my opinion.
Ethan will clarify 😀
		
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If you get Covid, you will develop normally a similar antibody response to that generated by vaccine. The immune response can vary, with some asymptomatic people having a relatively weak response, and others who receive a higher viral load having a stronger response. Vaccines generate a fairly strong response in most people. Some people, especially younger people can repel the virus without even needing to generate antibodies, it barely gets a chance to settle. They skip straight to using kicking it out with T-cells and registering it with their immune memory, and therefore you can be antibody negative but still immune, and that is the same immune memory we see after about 6 months with vaccine too, the antibodies will fall away but that doesn't mean loss of immunity, it simply means you have let the antibodies stand down from patrol but can call them up again if needed. 

Your mate might have repelled the virus that way, but he may simply have never caught it. Some people are just not easy for viruses to stick to, and the receptor sites in his lungs may just be lucky that way. So he was definitely exposed, but may have dodged it anyway. I wouldn't bother with an antibody test if I were him. Just wait for his turn for the vaccine and have it either way.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If you get Covid, you will develop normally a similar antibody response to that generated by vaccine. The immune response can vary, with some asymptomatic people having a relatively weak response, and others who receive a higher viral load having a stronger response. Vaccines generate a fairly strong response in most people. Some people, especially younger people can repel the virus without even needing to generate antibodies, it barely gets a chance to settle. They skip straight to using kicking it out with T-cells and registering it with their immune memory, and therefore you can be antibody negative but still immune, and that is the same immune memory we see after about 6 months with vaccine too, the antibodies will fall away but that doesn't mean loss of immunity, it simply means you have let the antibodies stand down from patrol but can call them up again if needed.

Your mate might have repelled the virus that way, but he may simply have never caught it. Some people are just not easy for viruses to stick to, and the receptor sites in his lungs may just be lucky that way. So he was definitely exposed, but may have dodged it anyway. I wouldn't bother with an antibody test if I were him. Just wait for his turn for the vaccine and have it either way.
		
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Ethan

Just having a natter with Missis T. We have both had Covid. She was poorly in February, being a nurse she wrote down the signs and symptoms in her phone. When she had Covid in Dec/ Jan she wrote them down again. Nigh on identical.
Anyway as you mentioned your antibodies stand down once the Covid is gone.However if one was to be infected with a strain from South Africa or Brazil would your body remember this new Covid strain or would it identify it as a new strain and have to create new antibodies. In essence is the body prepared or would it have to start all over again.
Cheers me man.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 23, 2021)

A friend's 30 year old son, fit and healthy before catching the virus, died today of Covid.
 He'd been in hospital for 2 months and seemed to be slowly recovering, but suddenly relapsed.
Seemingly during all his time in hospital he never once tested negative.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are many examples where one couple caused outbreaks affecting dozens. 400 people could cause an outbreak that would change the national picture. It is utterly reckless and self-unaware and whoever did it damn well knew it was way past illegal. The school should be ashamed of itself, and know well that this was an illegal gathering which would put their community at risk. A GP from this area commented on this case on doctors social media and said that this was not an isolated example around that area, although it may have been the biggest.
		
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As you say this utterly selfish behavior could affect thousands of people, what I don’t understand is why the government/ police are allowing this to carry on.


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The will of god argument is brilliant. So god didn’t allow doctors and scientists to do their thing - must be the devil’s professions.
		
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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 23, 2021)

Back in at 6.00 today. Three admissions and two deaths overnight and several end of life discussions booked today so this isn't abating. The rota for today a total mess and scrambling round for staff. Going to be another toughie, so forgive me if for the moment I don't share any of this "green shoots" positivity


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			As you say this utterly selfish behavior could affect thousands of people, what I don’t understand is *why the government/ police are allowing this to carry on*.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55764673

What on earth do you mean by that; how have the government & police allowed this to carry on?  The police have become aware of it, raided it & shut it down; what more can they do?  Fine the school I would hope, but beyond that, what?


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 23, 2021)

He obviously thinks they have access to the kind of system Tom Cruise used in Minority Report where they can find about such events in advance of them actually happening.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55764673

What on earth do you mean by that; how have the government & police allowed this to carry on?  The police have become aware of it, raided it & shut it down; what more can they do?  Fine the school I would hope, but beyond that, what?
		
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Apparently there are more gatherings like this in the area the government say this shouldn’t be happening and people could be fined for breaking the lockdown. 

Why are they not putting more pressure on the police to fine more people? Reports are quoting 150 people attended this event and the organizers may be fined £10.000 , but why were so few people fined for attending this gathering?

Reports say some people ran away when the police came but if the police were attending they could have blocked all exits and dealt with everyone more harshly and sent out a message that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.


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## chellie (Jan 23, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			A friend's 30 year old son, fit and healthy before catching the virus, died today of Covid.
He'd been in hospital for 2 months and seemed to be slowly recovering, but suddenly relapsed.
Seemingly during all his time in hospital he never once tested negative.
		
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Awful


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## hovis (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			As you say this utterly selfish behavior could affect thousands of people, what I don’t understand is why the government/ police are allowing this to carry on.
		
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The police are doing something about it.  Its just that there's millions of us and only thousands of them.  In our town we have 2 dedicated covid teams.  They go from job to job all day.

What's crazy is they have no powers of entry for covid.  So basically if you've got 6 people in your house and the police come knocking if they don't answer the door the police can't get in


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## SaintHacker (Jan 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



View attachment 34649

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Unreal, but maybe not unexpected. Perhaps they'll get to meet Him sooner than they expect...


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Apparently there are more gatherings like this in the area the government say this shouldn’t be happening and people could be fined for breaking the lockdown.

Why are they not putting more pressure on the police to fine more people? Reports are quoting 150 people attended this event and the organizers may be fined £10.000 , but why were so few people fined for attending this gathering?

Reports say some people ran away when the police came but if the police were attending they could have blocked all exits and dealt with everyone more harshly and sent out a message that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
		
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How do you know pressure is not being put upon police to fine people; how many exits are there at that school; how many police would be required; how many were on duty & available when this happened?  Absolutely no idea of the logistics & circumstances but we'll give the old Bill a slagging for doing their job & breaking up the party.  Absolutely priceless.

No invective against the people that organised it or the school that accepted the booking, just the Government & the Police.  Give your head a shake.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 23, 2021)

hovis said:



			The police are doing something about it.  Its just that there's millions of us and only thousands of them.  In our town we have 2 dedicated covid teams.  They go from job to job all day.

What's crazy is they have no powers of entry for covid.  So basically if you've got 6 people in your house and the police come knocking if they don't answer the door the police can't get in
		
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If we don’t have enough police officers to attend such mass gatherings there’s something seriously wrong, if 10 officers attended they should have been able to take names and addresses so they could have been fined. 

This pandemic is to serious to let these mass gatherings continue.


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## Rlburnside (Jan 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			How do you know pressure is not being put upon police to fine people; how many exits are there at that school; how many police would be required; how many were on duty & available when this happened?  Absolutely no idea of the logistics & circumstances but we'll give the old Bill a slagging for doing their job & breaking up the party.  Absolutely priceless.

No invective against the people that organised it or the school that accepted the booking, just the Government & the Police.  Give your head a shake.
		
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It was never my intention to slag the police off just asking the question. 

I think the organizers are being dealt with that’s why I didn’t mention them. 

What’s the answer then just let these gatherings continue.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Apparently there are more gatherings like this in the area the government say this shouldn’t be happening and people could be fined for breaking the lockdown.

Why are they not putting more pressure on the police to fine more people? Reports are quoting 150 people attended this event and the organizers may be fined £10.000 , but why were so few people fined for attending this gathering?

Reports say some people ran away when the police came but if the police were attending they could have blocked all exits and dealt with everyone more harshly and sent out a message that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
		
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Please think this through. There are not dozens  of Police in cupboards waiting to be deployed to such reports. This was a school premises, the layout would not be familiar to the officers, but would be to the offenders.
Unless you had a large number of officers able to be covertly deployed to all exits then offenders could flee.
This is what they did.
Now as for future such regular "community" events, then things get difficult these days. What you suggest as a policy to stop this, goes beyond the function of the police. New laws are needed to stop it. Fines are "costed" in to the event,  it has been suggested.
It is often said that policing in this country is "policing by consent" , but , it seems to me that we are now seeing people being aware that if enough of them decide to do what they want together, then the law will have to put up with it.
Policing today is a nightmare. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.[/QUOTE]


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## User62651 (Jan 23, 2021)

Going to raise this again but the 2nd dose delay issue is not going away. We are the only country in the world going on a 12 week 2nd does strategy when it should be 3 and no more than 6 at worst.
My mum had this jab last week, 93 yo. She has been told 12 weeks for repeat. Unsettled by this.
Do we do this half baked or do we do it right.......by waiting longer for enough supply?    At the moment - half baked it seems on the basis that some defence is better than no defence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			As you say this utterly selfish behavior could affect thousands of people, what I don’t understand is why the government/ police are allowing this to carry on.
		
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Rlburnside said:



			It was never my intention to slag the police off just asking the question.

I think the organizers are being dealt with that’s why I didn’t mention them.

What’s the answer then *just let these gatherings continue*.
		
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And there is is again; the sly inference that the government & police are complicit in this.  They have not allowed, they have not let; the organisers have ignored.  Government has made clear what is & isn't allowed, but this particular community has decided that a wedding is more important and have ignored the guidance, and organised it in contravention of the guidance.

How do we solve it?  Simple; absolutely hammer everyone involved in it if the evidence supports it.  The school for accepting the booking; the organisers; if there was a professional caterer then cane them; if the ceremony took place at the premises then fine the Rabbi.  If the school has got previous for this then take it out of the control of the owners; confiscate it or bulldoze it, I don't care which, but send a message that this is not acceptable.  Send the message. And wait for the complaints about police heavy handedness to roll it. 

The source of the issue is the pure selfishness or sense of entitlement of those who ignore the rules, be it a posh school or an illegal rave, and I'm not sure that any government or police force has a cure for selfishness.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 23, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			sense of entitlement
		
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Three words that basically sum up so many of the problems in the modern world 🤦‍♂️


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Going to raise this again but the 2nd dose delay issue is not going away. We are the only country in the world going on a 12 week 2nd does strategy when it should be 3 and no more than 6 at worst.
My mum had this jab last week, 93 yo. She has been told 12 weeks for repeat. Unsettled by this.
Do we do this half baked or do we do it right.......by waiting longer for enough supply?    At the moment - half baked it seems on the basis that some defence is better than no defence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084

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There have been so many varying opinions on it all without actually waiting to see if giving the first vaccine provides enough immunity for little steps to move forward. 

There have been plenty of people who have had their second dose already but then there are millions sat waiting just for their first and a majority of them will be waiting for 6 months - and that majority are the ones out working away right now trying to keep things moving. 

The more people getting a level of immunity to better for us all to move forward. There are bigger dangers ahead if we continue to be locked away for extended periods


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



*If we don’t have enough police officers* to attend such mass gatherings there’s something seriously wrong, if 10 officers attended they should have been able to take names and addresses so they could have been fined.

This pandemic is to serious to let these mass gatherings continue.
		
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The establishment is about !30,000 which I believe is for England & Wales.  

Out of that establishment you need to take the specialist squads, more administrative based functions, senior management, training departments, CID, complaints, etc.

Then you need to account for abstractions for stuff like court appearances, training, sickness and annual leave.

That will take a very large percentage of the establishment away from the front line.

Then using the old early, lates, nights, off rota, only one quarter of those are on duty art any one time.

So how many police officers do you think are instantly available to front line duties at any time?


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## Kellfire (Jan 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There have been so many varying opinions on it all without actually waiting to see if giving the first vaccine provides enough immunity for little steps to move forward.

There have been plenty of people who have had their second dose already but then there are millions sat waiting just for their first and a majority of them will be waiting for 6 months - and that majority are the ones out working away right now trying to keep things moving.

The more people getting a level of immunity to better for us all to move forward. There are bigger dangers ahead if we continue to be locked away for extended periods
		
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Covid: Gap between Pfizer vaccine doses should be halved, say doctors https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084

Not everyone agrees with you. 

We simply don’t know if the twelve week gap will be worth it in the long run. Fingers crossed it is!


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## USER1999 (Jan 23, 2021)

Not a fan of faith schools. To me, all schools should be secular, so bulldozing gets my vote.


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## Captainron (Jan 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Unreal, but maybe not unexpected. Perhaps they'll get to meet Him sooner than they expect...
		
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He’s not there to meet though is he. 
Made up bunch of balls!


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



*Do we do this half baked or do we do it right*.......by waiting longer for enough supply?    At the moment - half baked it seems on the basis that some defence is better than no defence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084

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Bearing in mind it was only 6 and a half weeks ago since the first person was vaccinated, what data are you using to make that decision?
I read the Pfizer vaccine is 90% effective after one dose and the Oxford 70% 


Although you can still catch covid after one dose, the patient is much less likely to become seriously ill.
That is why the advice is still to be vigilant after being vaccinated.


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## Captainron (Jan 23, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Back in at 6.00 today. Three admissions and two deaths overnight and several end of life discussions booked today so this isn't abating. The rota for today a total mess and scrambling round for staff. Going to be another toughie, so forgive me if for the moment I don't share any of this "green shoots" positivity
		
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What were the backgrounds of the 2 deceased? 
Age, underlying health issues etc


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			A friend's 30 year old son, fit and healthy before catching the virus, died today of Covid.
He'd been in hospital for 2 months and seemed to be slowly recovering, but suddenly relapsed.
Seemingly during all his time in hospital he never once tested negative.
		
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Thoughts


hovis said:



			The police are doing something about it.  Its just that there's millions of us and only thousands of them.  In our town we have 2 dedicated covid teams.  They go from job to job all day.

What's crazy is they have no powers of entry for covid.  So basically if you've got 6 people in your house and the police come knocking if they don't answer the door the police can't get in
		
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Spoke to the daughter about this, she’s a Bobby. I mentioned about the Gov saying the police will enforce the new £800 fines and 15 plus gatherings. She said “ really”. The sad thing is she said “ there ain’t enough police to do it” it is that widespread.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 23, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Not a fan of faith schools. To me, all schools should be secular, so bulldozing gets my vote.
		
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But if they are secular how can the naughty child be told to stand in the corner 🤷‍♂️


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## Kellfire (Jan 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Bearing in mind it was only 6 and a half weeks ago since the first person was vaccinated, what data are you using to make that decision?
I read the Pfizer vaccine is 90% effective after one dose and the Oxford 70%
View attachment 34656

Although you can still catch covid after one dose, the patient is much less likely to become seriously ill.
That is why the advice is still to be vigilant after being vaccinated.
		
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Because they don’t know if the immunity will drop off beyond three weeks, Pfizer recommend the second within the three weeks where possible. WHO have said four weeks, with six in exceptional circumstances.


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## harpo_72 (Jan 23, 2021)

Tried to get the apartment keys returned to Sweden via UPS who are quite reliable, but they have gone AWOL not sure if it’s corona or paperwork issues that are imaginary and must not be mentioned because they don’t exist or deemed political....


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because they don’t know if the immunity will drop off beyond three weeks, Pfizer recommend the second within the three weeks where possible. WHO have said four weeks, with six in exceptional circumstances.
		
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Not quite the same but most things are voided if you delibaretly use a product against the manufacturer’s instructions.
If it turns out the 12 week wait is to long the government will get some stick.
People could die .
They are just guessing and hoping .
These drug companies do the research and their testing should be adhered to imo.
I can see why the government are doing the one vaccine strategy but hope they are right.


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## Captainron (Jan 23, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Tried to get the apartment keys returned to Sweden via UPS who are quite reliable, but they have gone AWOL not sure if it’s corona or paperwork issues that are imaginary and must not be mentioned because they don’t exist or deemed political....
		
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Nope. UPS have suck a backlog of work since the UK left the EU. DB Schenker and DPD have suspended operations and this has put more pressure on UPS. 

Only around 10% of shipments in and out of the country actually have the correct paperwork first time. 

It’s a proper mess


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because they don’t know if the immunity will drop off beyond three weeks, Pfizer recommend the second within the three weeks where possible. WHO have said four weeks, with six in exceptional circumstances.
		
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Because of the urgency of getting the vaccine approved, they used 3 weeks between doses during their tests, that's why they have recommended 3 weeks. If they had used 12 weeks during their testing, nobody would get vaccinated until March.
No one knows for sure what affect delaying the second dose will have because we're only 6 weeks into it. But if the first dose prevents serious illness, I'm happy to see everyone at risk getting one dose to start with.


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## Kellfire (Jan 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Because of the urgency of getting the vaccine approved, they used 3 weeks between doses during their tests, that's why they have recommended 3 weeks. If they had used 12 weeks during their testing, nobody would have been vaccinated until March.
No one knows for sure what affect delaying the second dose will have because we're only 6 weeks into it. But if the first dose prevents serious illness, I'm happy to see everyone at risk getting one dose to start with.
		
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And that’s fine but we don’t know if this will end up causing the two dose combination to have too low an immune response to effectively fight the virus in the long term. 

It’s guess work either way but we have better evidence for a shorter term target and this is backed by both the manufacturers and the WHO. 

We have to hope the government’s gamble is right.


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			And that’s fine but we don’t know if this will end up causing the two dose combination to have too low an immune response to effectively fight the virus in the long term.

It’s guess work either way but we have better evidence for a shorter term target and this is backed by both the manufacturers and the WHO.

We have to hope the government’s gamble is right.
		
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I read that the second dose extends the effectiveness of the first dose.
Of course I could be wrong.
Have you found any numbers of people dying from Covid after the first jab? I'm still looking


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## Kellfire (Jan 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I read that the second dose extends the effectiveness of the first dose.
Of course I could be wrong.
Have you found any numbers of people dying from Covid after the first jab? I'm still looking
		
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Yea we know the second dose should extend the effectiveness but we haven’t tested that at twelve weeks which is why it’s an odd gamble to be using that target. 

And no, I haven’t looked for such figures.


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2021)

Start watching at 8:40 secs


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## hovis (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			If we don’t have enough police officers to attend such mass gatherings there’s something seriously wrong, if 10 officers attended they should have been able to take names and addresses so they could have been fined. 

This pandemic is to serious to let these mass gatherings continue.
		
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Yes, there is something seriously wrong.  We don't have enough police.  I don't seem to remember many people banging the table over the years of constant cuts to the emergency services.  To the public its just something that's in the background and doesn't effect them.  Now, fast forward a few years and the public expect the police to deploy from hidden cupboards and quash all the covid scumbags!!!!!  Last bank holiday my area had two police officers for the whole town.     This is not the fault of the police.  Believe me, they hate it just as much as you


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## harpo_72 (Jan 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Nope. UPS have suck a backlog of work since the UK left the EU. DB Schenker and DPD have suspended operations and this has put more pressure on UPS.

Only around 10% of shipments in and out of the country actually have the correct paperwork first time.

It’s a proper mess
		
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I suspected as much, but I don’t think we are allowed to say that as it’s related to a political stance 🙄. Let’s brush it under the carpet and say we have import export goblins


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			It was never my intention to slag the police off just asking the question.

I think the organizers are being dealt with that’s why I didn’t mention them.

What’s the answer then just let these gatherings continue.
		
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Indeed , what is the answer. ?

One solution would be martial law. Forget fines, if you break the rules, you'll go to jail- temporary places of detention. - Till the message gets through.
These people who selfishly do what they want have no interest in whether the infection rates are going up or down as a result of lockdown.
They behave on the basis of , "What lockdown?" 
Worse still are those who know of the lockdown but their culture and traditions and beliefs are more important than any law obedience or societal responsibility to the lockdown, if it interferes with those.
so, tell us, are you in favour of martial law? Because , frankly, I cannot see anything a lot short of that stopping determined offenders.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



View attachment 34649

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Fortunately we don’t all have a faith of the sort that makes us recklessly and thoughtlessly stupid


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Going to raise this again but the 2nd dose delay issue is not going away. We are the only country in the world going on a 12 week 2nd does strategy when it should be 3 and no more than 6 at worst.
My mum had this jab last week, 93 yo. She has been told 12 weeks for repeat. Unsettled by this.
Do we do this half baked or do we do it right.......by waiting longer for enough supply?    At the moment - half baked it seems on the basis that some defence is better than no defence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084

Click to expand...

It is unfortunate, but I assume she probably got the Pfizer jab. So did my wife, an NHS Consultant who sees patients and can be called on to attend the Covid ward, and whose second dose was likewise postponed. Your mother will be fine. One dose gives more protection than they ever anticipated two would, and even those who got Covid despite vaccination had a mild course. 

This is a population strategy, and the more people that get decent protection, the more we are all protected. It is not a good use of a scarce resource to offer a small incremental benefit to someone who is already pretty well protected when you can offer a much larger protection to someone who is completely unprotected. 

The science behind immunity suggests that a longer interval may be better, if indeed a booster is even needed. There is certainly no science to suggest that the antibody response wears off in anything less than about 6 months, and even then the T-cell response will kick in. Nor is there any evidence that older people lose response any more quickly than younger.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Indeed , what is the answer. ?

One solution would be martial law. Forget fines, if you break the rules, you'll go to jail- temporary places of detention. - Till the message gets through.
These people who selfishly do what they want have no interest in whether the infection rates are going up or down as a result of lockdown.
They behave on the basis of , "What lockdown?"
Worse still are those who know of the lockdown but their culture and traditions and beliefs are more important than any law obedience or societal responsibility to the lockdown, if it interferes with those.
so, tell us, are you in favour of martial law? Because , frankly, I cannot see anything a lot short of that stopping determined offenders.
		
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Martial law....wow. You’ve really drunk the kool aid !!😱😱😱


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Going to raise this again but the 2nd dose delay issue is not going away. We are the only country in the world going on a 12 week 2nd does strategy when it should be 3 and no more than 6 at worst.
My mum had this jab last week, 93 yo. She has been told 12 weeks for repeat. Unsettled by this.
Do we do this half baked or do we do it right.......by waiting longer for enough supply?    At the moment - half baked it seems on the basis that some defence is better than no defence.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55777084

Click to expand...

If you were in charge and you could declare 20% vaccinated or 40% vaccinated by certain date, and you could put a reasonable argument for the approach that gives you 40%, even though that might contradict the reasoning for the  approach that gives 20% - what would you do...?

Meanwhile - he who waits may act too late...and whilst ‘wait and see‘ may be appropriate when I do not have much idea of the likely outcome, when I DO know the likely outcome but hope for a different one...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I suspected as much, but I don’t think we are allowed to say that as it’s related to a political stance 🙄. Let’s brush it under the carpet and say we have import export goblins
		
Click to expand...

...and let’s not mention loss of Community police officers and overall shortage of officers across the country...as that drifts into the political arena also - but as we are seeing a lack of police numbers and the ability of the police to enforce the pandemic rules is impacting us _all_ now...


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## harpo_72 (Jan 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and let’s not mention loss of Community police officers and overall shortage of officers across the country...as that drifts into the political arena also - but as we are seeing a lack of police numbers and the ability of the police to enforce the pandemic rules is impacting us _all_ now...
		
Click to expand...

Yes I kind of feel it’s a thing of our own creation. UK tax is extremely low, compared to most of Europe. So yes we don’t have the social resources to actually support any of our services. But will this teach us anything? No sadly I think that is just who we are.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 23, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I suspected as much, but I don’t think we are allowed to say that as it’s related to a political stance 🙄. Let’s brush it under the carpet and say we have import export goblins
		
Click to expand...

Have they lost it or is it just delayed? It should give an indication on the tracking. If lost then ask them to raise a missing parcel case. If delayed then just put your feet up and accept it with everyone else 😁.

It could be worse, I'm sending pallets and parcels right now and the pallet situation is much worse. One haulier told me that French customs were checking every invoice against every pallet against every declaration. All when physically in front of them. The system can't deal with that level of checks. There is definitely a level of payback happening here.


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## drdel (Jan 23, 2021)

Lets get real.

So if I continue to follow the rules of isolation my risks are very low. If I get an injection my survival rate is even more enhanced. If I have to wait up 6 weeks for a booster jab to increase immunity from about 3 months to a much longer period: how in the real world does the extra 3 week, potential delay, really make a difference when lockdown ìs not likely to be fundamentally changed for several months?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2021)

drdel said:



			Lets get real.

So if I continue to follow the rules of isolation my risks are very low. If I get an injection my survival rate is even more enhanced. If I have to wait up 6 weeks for a booster jab to increase immunity from about 3 months to a much longer period: how in the real world does the extra 3 week, potential delay, really make a difference when lockdown ìs not likely to be fundamentally changed for several months?
		
Click to expand...

I believe the whole idea of the delay is to allow more people to get the first dose of vaccine to increase the spread of immunity across more of the population- especially the groups 1-4 , getting the first dose to those groups by mid feb would then allow the government to think about a Tier system to allow some level of restrictions to be eased.


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2021)

drdel said:



			Lets get real.

So if I continue to follow the rules of isolation my risks are very low. If I get an injection my survival rate is even more enhanced. If I have to wait up 6 weeks for a booster jab to increase immunity from about 3 months to a much longer period: how in the real world does the extra 3 week, potential delay, really make a difference when lockdown ìs not likely to be fundamentally changed for several months?
		
Click to expand...

After the first dose of the pfizer vaccine, the risk of you catching the virus is vastly reduced especially if you keep following the safety guidlines. If however you are unlucky and catch it, your symptoms will be greatly reduced which means less people in hospitals.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 23, 2021)

I keep hearing about sections of the population being unwilling to take the vaccine, hopefully not too many. If people want to take that risk then I'm largely ambivalent about it, their problem not mine, but the question I would ask is could that impact on the rest of us, even if we have had the vaccine? This may have been asked before, apologies if so.

Will it damage the herd immunity concept that will be built or will it be classic Darwinism at work?


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## harpo_72 (Jan 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Have they lost it or is it just delayed? It should give an indication on the tracking. If lost then ask them to raise a missing parcel case. If delayed then just put your feet up and accept it with everyone else 😁.

It could be worse, I'm sending pallets and parcels right now and the pallet situation is much worse. One haulier told me that French customs were checking every invoice against every pallet against every declaration. All when physically in front of them. The system can't deal with that level of checks. There is definitely a level of payback happening here.
		
Click to expand...

I am hoping it’s just delayed in the mess but the tracking number has stopped working.
As for payback, more like vigorous application of the regulations. This was always going to be the case, and when raised was always dismissed with it will be a computer system... the point is anyone wants to do a job properly you have to get hands on, believing pieces of paper and what they say is open to smuggling. 
I mean we trusted everyone coming in and we have all these illegal immigrants, just think if we checked properly we wouldn’t have this issue


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## anotherdouble (Jan 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the whole idea of the delay is to allow more people to get the first dose of vaccine to increase the spread of immunity across more of the population- especially the groups 1-4 , getting the first dose to those groups by mid feb would then allow the government to think about a Tier system to allow some level of restrictions to be eased.
		
Click to expand...

Tier systems haven’t worked before as each time it’s led to a lockdown. I don’t think this time (as end in sight) the scientists will allow an early release. The country is broke, schools would have already lost half the term, exams already cancelled, I can see scientists and then boris et al holding out until Easter. Could they deem the mental health of a ‘few’ as collateral damage to save the masses.


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## Kellfire (Jan 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I keep hearing about sections of the population being unwilling to take the vaccine, hopefully not too many. If people want to take that risk then I'm largely ambivalent about it, their problem not mine, but the question I would ask is could that impact on the rest of us, even if we have had the vaccine? This may have been asked before, apologies if so.

Will it damage the herd immunity concept that will be built or will it be classic Darwinism at work?
		
Click to expand...

It’s estimated that we need between 60 - 70% from studies I’ve seen to achieve herd immunity. I have faith that there is nowhere near 30 - 40% of the population who either can’t get it for medical reasons or are anti-vaxxers.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 23, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Martial law....wow. You’ve really drunk the kool aid !!😱😱😱
		
Click to expand...

If you really read what I've written, I have *not *advocated martial law.
I have asked the question ( of Riburnside, and others if you like).
Riburnside asked what was the answer to these determined offenders.
I gave an extreme example because he was knocking the Policing as if they should have done better.
I said that Martial law would be an answer, and it would. Whether it was desirable or not is another question .
And I think it is the case that there doesn't seem to be the resources and ability to stop these determined offenders unless something draconian is considered.
You saw the words "martial law"  and it seems you consider I think there should be such a situation.  I don't.
I think there should be much firmer action, involving arrest, detention, massive fines for all involved, with access to their funds if they refuse to pay, etc.
As you aren't on the kook aid, what is your answer😀


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## SaintHacker (Jan 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			It’s estimated that we need between 60 - 70% from studies I’ve seen to achieve herd immunity. I have faith that there is nowhere near 30 - 40% of the population who either can’t get it for medical reasons or are anti-vaxxers.
		
Click to expand...

Chris Whitty actual words on that were when weve vacc'd 50% of the population weve won, the virus won't be able to spread after that. No idea myself but I'm not a professor


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 23, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I am hoping it’s just delayed in the mess but the tracking number has stopped working.
As for payback, more like vigorous application of the regulations. This was always going to be the case, and when raised was always dismissed with it will be a computer system... the point is anyone wants to do a job properly you have to get hands on, believing pieces of paper and what they say is open to smuggling.
I mean we trusted everyone coming in and we have all these illegal immigrants, just think if we checked properly we wouldn’t have this issue
		
Click to expand...

The intention was that the trust would be between the carrier and customs to an extent where only random checks would be required. They may stop a one man band driver or firms they have suspicions about but they would largely go on trust with the multi nationals or big boys. Currently it's the equivalent of every passenger on a flight having their bag opened and checked upon arrival. That's unsustainable.


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## drdel (Jan 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			It’s estimated that we need between 60 - 70% from studies I’ve seen to achieve herd immunity. I have faith that there is nowhere near 30 - 40% of the population who either can’t get it for medical reasons or are anti-vaxxers.
		
Click to expand...

And we'd need the rest of the world to get similar levels of immunity before allowing unrestricted ìnternational travel. The rate of vaccination in other countries is not great so it will be many months.

I fear relying on herd immunity might not be a wise strategy.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I keep hearing about sections of the population being unwilling to take the vaccine, hopefully not too many. If people want to take that risk then I'm largely ambivalent about it, their problem not mine, but the question I would ask is could that impact on the rest of us, even if we have had the vaccine? This may have been asked before, apologies if so.

Will it damage the herd immunity concept that will be built or will it be classic Darwinism at work?
		
Click to expand...

I think the answer, unfortunately, is that it will impact on the control of the virus. If too few are vaccinated, the virus may still flourish.
Would like to be wrong.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If you really read what I've written, I have *not *advocated martial law.
I have asked the question ( of Riburnside, and others if you like).
Riburnside asked what was the answer to these determined offenders.
I gave an extreme example because he was knocking the Policing as if they should have done better.
I said that Martial law would be an answer, and it would. Whether it was desirable or not is another question .
And I think it is the case that there doesn't seem to be the resources and ability to stop these determined offenders unless something draconian is considered.
You saw the words "martial law"  and it seems you consider I think there should be such a situation.  I don't.
I think there should be much firmer action, involving arrest, detention, massive fines for all involved, with access to their funds if they refuse to pay, etc.
As you aren't on the kook aid, what is your answer😀
		
Click to expand...

I have no answers, above my paygrade 😉 these are a new (ish) set of circumstance. To think you’d get 100% adherence to a lockdown in a western democracy with no history of any totalitarian control is a little unrealistic unfortunately. The reports of these events are also disproportionate, they are isolated from what I’ve seen. Compliance seems to be good. 
Generally I’m also becoming skeptical of this type of news. It’s being used to reinforce the social control & looks to be more effective than any direct enforcement. 
Look at the news we had yesterday. R rate is down .....good, but the new strain kills you better.....Covid 2 die harder!!! (Except that it seems today it doesn’t) , it’s a poor sequel, so the die hard comparisons don’t work. 🤣🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352943022137372672
Interesting thread about a NASID that is helping people recover from Covid

also it appears that yesterday 500,000 were given the vaccine , excellent news

also Scientists playing down the “more dangerous “ variant 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55779171


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## Rlburnside (Jan 23, 2021)

[QUOTE
I think there should be much firmer action, involving arrest, detention, massive fines for all involved, with access to their funds if they refuse to pay, etc.

This paragraph is what I ment. 
Let me repeat it was not my intention to criticize the police just the policy of not fining more people. I was only asking a valid question. 

The police have a hard enough job as it is but even if there was only 2 officers attending could they not have fined more people?


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## Imurg (Jan 23, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			[QUOTE
I think there should be much firmer action, involving arrest, detention, massive fines for all involved, with access to their funds if they refuse to pay, etc.

This paragraph is what I ment.
Let me repeat it was not my intention to criticize the police just the policy of not fining more people. I was only asking a valid question.

The police have a hard enough job as it is but even if there was only 2 officers attending could they not have fined more people?
		
Click to expand...

They've got to catch them..as soon as they've got one it means the rest can run..


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			It’s estimated that we need between 60 - 70% from studies I’ve seen to achieve herd immunity. I have faith that there is nowhere near 30 - 40% of the population who either can’t get it for medical reasons or are anti-vaxxers.
		
Click to expand...

Currently there are no plans to vaccinate children, so you can take out the U-16 population entirely. 

Herd immunity is a mathematical construction, and it basically goes like this: given the transmissibility of the virus, what proportion needs to be immune so that each case will spread it to no more than 1 other. So, if R = 3, then you need to vaccinate 2 out every 3, if R = 10, you need to vaccinate 9 out of 10. 

It is worth noting that reaching this threshold isn't the end of the story, it is the point at which the pandemic cannot grow, but cases can and will still occur. 

The Ro (determined at the start of the pandemic) for Covid has been generally defined as 3, so around 66% would need to be immune for herd immunity. If you have a vaccine with 66% effectiveness, arguably you need everybody vaccinated. 

The new strains (SA and Manaus) are said to be more transmissible, meaning R is higher. If it is 30% higher, lets say 4, then the herd immunity threshold goes up to 75%.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Not sure where you drove mate but the A1 between Metro Centre and Newton Aycliffe was rammed again this morning,  just like it has been since the end of the last lockdown. Strangley though the traffic further south around Leeds and Manchester is definitely quieter.
		
Click to expand...

I take it all back, due to other commitments (baking) I didn’t get out until after lunch today, I’ve never seen the Seafront as busy apart from Carnival Weekend.
Beautiful day, light winds, very cold, but absolutely rammed, path is 20”ft wide in places, but add in walkers, runners, cyclists, prams and dog leads and it was chaotic, witnessed people bumping in to each other while trying to avoid others.

I only got a few hundred yards along the front and decided it was too much and returned home and went inland.

I just hope this attitude of families spending time together exercising outdoors continues once we are through this.


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## memememe (Jan 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Currently there are no plans to vaccinate children, so you can take out the U-16 population entirely.

Herd immunity is a mathematical construction, and it basically goes like this: given the transmissibility of the virus, what proportion needs to be immune so that each case will spread it to no more than 1 other. So, if R = 3, then you need to vaccinate 2 out every 3, if R = 10, you need to vaccinate 9 out of 10.

It is worth noting that reaching this threshold isn't the end of the story, it is the point at which the pandemic cannot grow, but cases can and will still occur.

The Ro (determined at the start of the pandemic) for Covid has been generally defined as 3, so around 66% would need to be immune for herd immunity. If you have a vaccine with 66% effectiveness, arguably you need everybody vaccinated.

The new strains (SA and Manaus) are said to be more transmissible, meaning R is higher. If it is 30% higher, lets say 4, then the herd immunity threshold goes up to 75%.
		
Click to expand...

Ethan,

Firstly, many thanks for your continuing incredibly informative posts.

A question I have concerning numbers of those choosing to not get vaccinated for whatever reason.  If vaccination rates are high enough to drive the R rate down as you outline here, is there still a bit of mathematics at play that says due to continuing transmission amongst the non-vaccinated, and virus replication, then the probability of a mutation developing that is (even) more transmissable, or, even worse, resistant to the current vaccines.

Is there any science that gives us any indication on where we need to get to to make the chances of this happening similar to say influenza?


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## USER1999 (Jan 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I keep hearing about sections of the population being unwilling to take the vaccine, hopefully not too many. If people want to take that risk then I'm largely ambivalent about it, their problem not mine, ......etc
		
Click to expand...

But it is your problem. These people will continue to clog up hospitals, which prevents hospitals from using their facilities for other issues. They drive up the R number, and keep the rest of us in lock down. They may also give it to the people who teach, nurse, deliver stuff, serve you in shops etc.
Unfortunately the selfish lot do have a direct impact on the rest of us.


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## Crazyface (Jan 23, 2021)

I'm developing a meh attitude to statistics. Not non belief just, OMG its just an overflow of information.


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2021)

memememe said:



			Ethan,

Firstly, many thanks for your continuing incredibly informative posts.

A question I have concerning numbers of those choosing to not get vaccinated for whatever reason.  If vaccination rates are high enough to drive the R rate down as you outline here, is there still a bit of mathematics at play that says due to continuing transmission amongst the non-vaccinated, and virus replication, then the probability of a mutation developing that is (even) more transmissable, or, even worse, resistant to the current vaccines.

Is there any science that gives us any indication on where we need to get to to make the chances of this happening similar to say influenza?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think so. You hear stuff on TV that the virus will mutate, almost as if it is trying thinks to outwit us. It really isn't. Mutations occur because it replicates so fast mistakes happen in the gene sequence, but they are essentially random effects. Most of them make no difference, some reduce the virus's ability to attach to receptors in hosts and thus replicate, so those tend to die out, others increase the virus's ability to attach, and are therefore more transmissible, so they tend to dominate because they are faster in the race between the strains. Mutations that kill the host fast also tend to die out because they can't transmit very well. Mutations which evade the immune system are certainly possible, arguably the SA/Manaus strains do some of this, but they have been tested mostly against plasma from recovered patients, and that immunity might be quite narrow. The vaccines may still work against these new mutations. 

So there will be dozens, possibly hundreds of mutations coming, and we will have to see what properties they have. The new vaccines can be upgraded very quickly to deal with new strains, so the boosters we will probably get may become more like firmware updates on out phones.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The intention was that the trust would be between the carrier and customs to an extent where only random checks would be required. They may stop a one man band driver or firms they have suspicions about but they would largely go on trust with the multi nationals or big boys. Currently it's the equivalent of every passenger on a flight having their bag opened and checked upon arrival. That's unsustainable.
		
Click to expand...

Yes think they are showboating a bit atm .
It should settle down in time.
How long that is is anyone’s guess.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cyz0z8w0ydwt

and yet still its party time for some ☹️
The owner had previously been fine £1,000


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## 2blue (Jan 23, 2021)

Getting first jab tomorrow....   will begin to feel a bit safer but won't be changing routines for some time yet. 🙄🙄


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 23, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-55778052

Daily cases continue to fall - seven day average very much dropping . They expect the death rate to start dropping soon. Still on track to vaccinate the groups 1-4 by mid Feb


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2021)

478,248 people were vaccinated in the UK *YESTERDAY*, an increase on the previous record (Jan 21st) daily total of 409,855


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## road2ruin (Jan 23, 2021)

So yesterday’s announcement about the new ‘killer’ variant has caused some surprise amongst members of SAGE that it was even announced. 

Apparently the number who die with the new strain has gone from 10 in 10,000 to 13 in 10,000. This is a small rise based on very limited data. Be aware of it by all means and carefully monitor it over the course of a week or two but don’t start announcing it to the general public until you have enough data to make a strong conclusion. Surely this is Stats 101?!


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2021)

Throughout all of this Covid, whilst recovering in hospital I am told that contact with the outside world. Contact with the ones you love via telephone, WhatsApp etc is important. Well in Italy it is. Me pal Alfredo has been sent a video whilst recovering in hospital from his family in Abruzzo. It is of a pig they have killed and they have promised to make him some salami. Ave posted a photo of the pig.
Hope it helps Alfredo. 😁

(Mod note. picture of 1/2 a slaughtered pig removed on grounds of “WTF”. Wondering if Tash has lost it?)


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



*(Mod note. picture of 1/2 a slaughtered pig removed on grounds of “WTF”.* Wondering if Tash has lost it?)
		
Click to expand...

Is a picture of a whole slaughtered pig considered acceptable? 

And presumably a picture a live pig or of a packet of salami wouldn't get modded. So the line is somewhere between the live animal and the end product.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Throughout all of this Covid, whilst recovering in hospital I am told that contact with the outside world. Contact with the ones you love via telephone, WhatsApp etc is important. Well in Italy it is. Me pal Alfredo has been sent a video whilst recovering in hospital from his family in Abruzzo. It is of a pig they have killed and they have promised to make him some salami. Ave posted a photo of the pig.
Hope it helps Alfredo. 😁

(Mod note. picture of 1/2 a slaughtered pig removed on grounds of “WTF”. Wondering if Tash has lost it?)
		
Click to expand...

good job I didn’t think post the video. Apologies if it’s upset anyone. 👍

PS, don’t go in the butchers 😉


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 23, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is a picture of a whole slaughtered pig considered acceptable?

And presumably a picture a live pig or of a packet of salami wouldn't get modded. So the line is somewhere between the live animal and the end product.
		
Click to expand...

‘Twas just a bit gross and would have had the Forum animal rights section up in arms, so just saving myself work 

I’m sure Tashy will PM a copy to anyone who requests it 👍


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## SaintHacker (Jan 23, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m sure Tashy will PM a copy to anyone who requests it 👍
		
Click to expand...

Personally I'd prefer a slice or two...


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 23, 2021)

Stories in the media about the percentage of the population turning down the vaccine or saying they will not have it.   Great - means I get nearer the front of the queue quicker.  Just don't come running for help when you catch it and get seriously ill.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Personally I'd prefer a slice or two...
		
Click to expand...

Ah that's why Fragger deleted the picture -  him and slices eh?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 23, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Ah that's why Fragger deleted the picture -  him and slices eh?  

Click to expand...

Chortle
I have a list 😂


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## Paperboy (Jan 23, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Chortle
I have a list 😂
		
Click to expand...

What of when you hit it straight


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## Kellfire (Jan 23, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Chortle
I have a list 😂
		
Click to expand...

If it isn’t a slice, maybe it’s some pulled pork?


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			What of when you hit it straight 

Click to expand...

He said a list, not a one off event.


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## Old Skier (Jan 23, 2021)

Dear old Elkid Brooks was jabbed today at our centre, only in her mid 70’s and causing a bit of a row as we are behind the curve with the over 80’s and care homes.

Interesting times.

I find the Pfizer delayed jab situation rather strange. We only have around the 42 million (can’t remember the exact figure) of them on order anyway with no guarantee of further supplies and as the vaccines cannot be mix and matched I still don’t see to much logic in delaying giving those that have had the Pfizer the second dose as they are the only ones that can have them so they are going to reach the half way number fairly soon anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Chortle
I have a list 😂
		
Click to expand...

He’s got a little list - he is the Lord High Executioner 👍


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## Old Skier (Jan 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He’s got a little list - he is the Lord High Executioner 👍
		
Click to expand...

Im not sure it’s little.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im not sure it’s little. 

Click to expand...

It’s certainly expanding 👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He’s got a little list - he is the Lord High Executioner 👍
		
Click to expand...

like the Gilbert & Sullivan reference, 
We have a family operetta “Ruddigore” 😎


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So yesterday’s announcement about the new ‘killer’ variant has caused some surprise amongst members of SAGE that it was even announced.

Apparently the number who die with the new strain has gone from 10 in 10,000 to 13 in 10,000. This is a small rise based on very limited data. Be aware of it by all means and carefully monitor it over the course of a week or two but don’t start announcing it to the general public until you have enough data to make a strong conclusion. Surely this is Stats 101?!
		
Click to expand...

I think it was 10 in 1000 vs 13 in 1000. Same relative risk increase.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s certainly expanding 👍
		
Click to expand...

Can I be on it...what do you mean - I already am...shoorly not...😘


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Dear old Elkid Brooks was jabbed today at our centre, only in her mid 70’s and causing a bit of a row as we are behind the curve with the over 80’s and care homes.

Interesting times.

I find the Pfizer delayed jab situation rather strange. We only have around the 42 million (can’t remember the exact figure) of them on order anyway with no guarantee of further supplies and as the vaccines cannot be mix and matched I still don’t see to much logic in delaying giving those that have had the Pfizer the second dose as they are the only ones that can have them so they are going to reach the half way number fairly soon anyway.
		
Click to expand...

The biggest UK order is for AZ/Oxford. There are also orders for Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson (due to report trial results soon), Valneva and Novavax and a small order for Moderna (first batch due in April). Finally there is an order for GSK/Sanofi but it has disappointed in trials and may be a turkey. There is enough stuff ordered, but the supply dates might become a problem. I think we might have a dip coming very soon, so scaling up will stall.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			‘Twas just a bit gross and would have had the Forum animal rights section up in arms, so just saving myself work

I’m sure Tashy will PM a copy to anyone who requests it 👍
		
Click to expand...

At the end of the day in Italy it is helping someone. The picture and video was sent to me by Alfredo’s wife. She was laughing about how a slaughtered Pig is gonna inspire him to “ get well soon “ above seeing his wife and dog.
The video I thought was typically cultural Italy at its best. Something I have been fortunate to see.
If it helps to balance things out I will post a picture of a lettuce.

Stay safe everyone.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Dear old Elkid Brooks was jabbed today at our centre, *only in her mid 70’s and causing a bit of a row as we are behind the curve with the over 80’s and care homes.*

Interesting times.

I find the Pfizer delayed jab situation rather strange. We only have around the 42 million (can’t remember the exact figure) of them on order anyway with no guarantee of further supplies and as the vaccines cannot be mix and matched I still don’t see to much logic in delaying giving those that have had the Pfizer the second dose as they are the only ones that can have them so they are going to reach the half way number fairly soon anyway.
		
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yours is not the only area, I was watching the online booking service for in laws to book them in.It changed to under 75’s and we booked them in straight away. It has since transpired that we are miles behind for vaccinating over 80,s so they have now stopped any bookings for over 75’s For the time being.


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## upsidedown (Jan 23, 2021)

NO worries Tashy you can send it to me please. Coming from a farming background I appreciate what has to happen for our food to appear on our plates. In NZ we reared our own pigs, sheep and beefies which we duly enjoyed, some of the best meat weve ever eaten 😉😊


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			NO worries Tashy you can send it to me please. Coming from a farming background I appreciate what has to happen for our food to appear on our plates. In NZ we reared our own pigs, sheep and beefies which we duly enjoyed, some of the best meat weve ever eaten 😉😊
		
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Alfredos wife thought he was gonna die. The recovery has been amazing. Anyway I have spent hours on the phone with his wife. She is one of the funniest women I have ever met. She has talked in great detail about Alfredo as a child, how he was brought up by nuns and the church. His childhood would make a film. He is very much an outdoor person. He would be in his element hunting Boar. He is 70 going on 25. When he does a BBQ, it’s meat basted in rosemary branches. a sausage or burger is a deffo no no.
The video I thought was old school, 99.9% of people in the UK could not relate to. But for me it was similar to when I spent a week in Badalucca at the “dried fish” festival. At midnight I was just going to bed and me and Missis T were told by him we had to go and watch the wine being made. We walked through what looked like medieval alleys to go to an old guys garage and watched him mixing his own wine in a 6ft high barrel. Watching him squeeze his own wine in a press and am thinking “ they don’t do this in Mansfield. It is very much a different world To ours.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 24, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s certainly expanding 👍
		
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I would imagine I'm closer to the top of that list than I am the vaccination one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The biggest UK order is for AZ/Oxford. There are also orders for Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson (due to report trial results soon), Valneva and Novavax and a small order for Moderna (first batch due in April). Finally there is an order for GSK/Sanofi but it has disappointed in trials and may be a turkey. There is enough stuff ordered, but the supply dates might become a problem. I think we might have a dip coming very soon, so scaling up will stall.
		
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...and what happens when the ‘first receivers‘ 12 weeks is up and they start flowing in to get their 2nd...like we find in golf with a two tee start - as soon as those starting on the 10th complete the 18th the numbers starting on the 1st drops to accommodate those coming round because there is only so much capacity I.e. one 1st tee.  Will we have the capacity of both vaccine and resources to cope with ‘parallel vaccinating’...for both 1st and 2nd vaccinations.  

If we build capacity in advance of the 12weeks pt as I am sure we are then we will get increased 1st vaccination for a while - which will be great - but then that 1st vaccination rate will drop significantly as the 2nd vaccinations are given.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and what happens when the ‘first receivers‘ 12 weeks is up and they start flowing in to get their 2nd...like we find in golf with a two tee start - as soon as those starting on the 10th complete the 18th the numbers starting on the 1st drops to accommodate those coming round because there is only so much capacity I.e. one 1st tee.  Will we have the capacity of both vaccine and resources to cope with ‘parallel vaccinating’...for both 1st and 2nd vaccinations. 

If we build capacity in advance of the 12weeks pt as I am sure we are then we will get increased 1st vaccination for a while - which will be great - but then that 1st vaccination rate will drop significantly as the 2nd vaccinations are given.
		
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Is it feasible to have more trained people and then have separate first and second dose centres?

If the supply rate slows down then this might be the deciding factor though


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## bobmac (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we build capacity in advance of the 12weeks pt as I am sure we are then we will get increased 1st vaccination for a while - which will be great - but then that *1st vaccination rate will drop significantly* as the 2nd vaccinations are given.
		
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Why?


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## road2ruin (Jan 24, 2021)

So strong rumours coming out this morning that schools will remain shut until after Easter holidays at the earliest and the science lot pushing for May. 

From a personal point of view this would be a disaster for our daughter having missed almost half of Year 1 and now a similar amount of Year 2. Couple with her being an August baby there is no way she’ll be ready for the step up to Primary School in August. If this announcement is made we’ve already made the decision to investigate whether we can keep her in Year 2 for another year to try and catch up. 

There is no way we can keep the home schooling going until Easter so this term will be a write off.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Why?
		
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A combination of supply, the main issue, and people to administer it.

There was a doctor in my area on the local news at the end of last week advising that they were not going to receive any doses this week. They've completed the over 80's, were looking to start on the 70's group but they will have to wait now. Doses were being redirected to other areas who are not as advanced. If supply was not an issue then they would stil be receiving deliveries and could plough ahead. Multiply that problem when you are looking to jab two groups at once.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Why?
		
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Simply capacity.  If we build capacity and 1st vaccinate to that capacity, then as soon as 2nd vaccine tranche starts coming in the volume of 1st vaccinations must drop.


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## bobmac (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Simply capacity.  If we build capacity and 1st vaccinate to that capacity, then as soon as 2nd vaccine tranche starts coming in the volume of 1st vaccinations must drop.
		
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The second vaccine will not be due until 11-12 weeks after the first.
Vaccinations did not begin until 8th December which means they will expect their second dose 11-12 weeks after that so the end of February.
How many people will that involve and how many 1st dose vaccinations will be given out daily by then?
We're currently vaccinating just under half a million people per day so 3 1/2 million people per week.
How many people were vaccinated in the first week and will need their second dose?

I would suggest not a significant number compared to how many vaccinations we will be getting in 5 weeks time (staff and supply allowing)
Besides, if you've thought about a potential problem arising, you can bet your house that the experts in this field have thought of it too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The second vaccine will not be due until 11-12 weeks after the first.
Vaccinations did not begin until 8th December which means they will expect their second dose 11-12 weeks after that so the end of February.
How many people will that involve and how many 1st dose vaccinations will be given out daily by then?
We're currently vaccinating just under half a million people per day so 3 1/2 million people per week.
How many people were vaccinated in the first week and will need their second dose?

I would suggest not a significant number compared to how many vaccinations we will be getting in 5 weeks time (staff and supply allowing)
Besides, if you've thought about a potential problem arising, you can bet your house that the experts in this field have thought of it too.
		
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I have no doubt it has been thought through fully by Johnson and Hancock guided by their advisors...though...hmmm

I just can’t see how we can avoid a drop in 1st vaccination throughput if we are vaccinating to capacity the day before the first 2nd dozers turn up.  The answer I guess is that we don’t 1st vaccinate to capacity.


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## chrisd (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have no doubt it has been thought through fully by Johnson and Hancock guided by their advisors...though...hmmm

I just can’t see how we can avoid a drop in 1st vaccination throughput if we are vaccinating to capacity the day before the first 2nd dozers turn up.  The answer I guess is that we don’t 1st vaccinate to capacity.
		
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Maybe the drop in 1st vaccination through put will be eliminated by more vaccination sites opening. For me the key is how much vaccine arrives to be able to get it into people's arms


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So strong rumours coming out this morning that schools will remain shut until after Easter holidays at the earliest and the science lot pushing for May.

From a personal point of view this would be a disaster for our daughter having missed almost half of Year 1 and now a similar amount of Year 2. Couple with her being an August baby there is no way she’ll be ready for the step up to Primary School in August. If this announcement is made we’ve already made the decision to investigate whether we can keep her in Year 2 for another year to try and catch up.

There is no way we can keep the home schooling going until Easter so this term will be a write off.
		
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I said this a couple of days ago. Tier systems have always led to a lockdown, so they don’t work. Economy is broken so another 6-8 weeks won’t matter. Scientists now will want to hold out with lockdown I would think until 55/60 and above vaccinate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Maybe the drop in 1st vaccination through put will be eliminated by more vaccination sites opening. For me the key is how much vaccine arrives to be able to get it into people's arms
		
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Yup - key to leveraging capacity...


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## bobmac (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just can’t see how we can avoid a drop in 1st vaccination throughput if we are vaccinating to capacity the day before the first 2nd dozers turn up.  The answer I guess is that we don’t 1st vaccinate to capacity.
		
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Of course there will be a drop, anyone can see that, but from what to what and what would you describe as ''significant''?


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## AdamW (Jan 24, 2021)

The level of stupid here is off the charts:


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## Tashyboy (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Simply capacity.  If we build capacity and 1st vaccinate to that capacity, then as soon as 2nd vaccine tranche starts coming in the volume of 1st vaccinations must drop.
		
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That was always going to be an issue re 2nd vaccinations after 12 weeks. And am sure that was a considered Factor when a decision was made to extend the 2nd dose to 12 weeks. as It stands millions of our most vulnerable will be vaccinated within the 1st 12 weeks. Would that of been the case had we gone 3 weeks, 3 weeks, 3 weeks, 3 weeks. 
Interestingly a guy from Israel was interviewed by Andrew Marr this morning. He was asked re the way Israel is sticking to the 3 weeks advice. He mentioned it was not a straight forward decision and a lot of discussion was had before going ahead with the 3 weeks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 24, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			I said this a couple of days ago. Tier systems have always led to a lockdown, so they don’t work. Economy is broken so another 6-8 weeks won’t matter. Scientists now will want to hold out with lockdown I would think until 55/60 and above vaccinate.
		
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I will be amazed if they wait until then - truely amazed - that won’t be until May and there is no way they would justify a lockdown until May if cases have reduced and the vunerable will have gained an immunity 

The impact of that on many people especially the working population and school kids potentially will be worse than what the virus will affect them -there will be millions affected. We still need to look to the future and that means getting people working , businesses up and kids to school 

We do need to protect the vunerable as that is the group that are being hit hard - when it’s around 350 of people under 65 who have died because of the virus ( without known conditions ) then it’s hard to justify keeping them locked up when the country does need to move on . 

It’s very hard at the moment and there are a lot of people struggling and a third lockdown of over 10 weeks will be a harder hit for millions than the virus. 

Tier systems worked for many areas - when Liverpool etc went into Tier 3 it worked but it’s hard and at times you do think if the first lockdown was harder then we may not be needing this lockdown. 

I can see a very big reaction if they say lockdown stays until after Easter and schools closed.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

AdamW said:



			The level of stupid here is off the charts:







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Please tell me that he didn't film that himself and publish it to the internet himself?  What a complete and utter moron.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 24, 2021)

AdamW said:



			The level of stupid here is off the charts:







Click to expand...

Surely there has to be a crime committed here that is outside the fines being handed out? 

Reckless endangerment springs to mind.


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## Imurg (Jan 24, 2021)

AdamW said:



			The level of stupid here is off the charts:







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My initial reaction is...fine.
He wants to go home, let him go home.
He'll almost certainly die but that's his choice.
NHS will still get the blame though..
At 75% Sats I'd be surprised if he makes the car park...


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Please tell me that he didn't film that himself and publish it to the internet himself?  What a complete and utter moron.
		
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I think he did. However with the risk of getting some backlash I will say that frightened relatives will go to all lengths to appease their  feelings. They obviously thought that what they were doing was right and can any blame them. They were obviously in the camp that this thing does not exist and therefore invincible. Throw in some sunlight for vit d and a few bags of oranges for vitamin c and all will be well in the world. I personally think they were a danger. Most probably got the bus or train home and risked hundreds catching it


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			I think he did. However with the risk of getting some backlash I will say that frightened relatives will go to all lengths to appease their  feelings. They obviously thought that what they were doing was right and can any blame them. They were obviously in the camp that this thing does not exist and therefore invincible. Throw in some sunlight for vit d and a few bags of oranges for vitamin c and all will be well in the world. I personally think they were a danger. Most probably got the bus or train home and risked hundreds catching it
		
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I'll blame them because they are clearly ill-informed, have no idea what is going on and will have put a number of people and the running of the ward at risk because of their pig-headed ignorance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'll blame them because they are clearly ill-informed, have no idea what is going on and will have put a number of people and the running of the ward at risk because of their pig-headed ignorance.
		
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Remember - there are no stupid or ignorant people in this country...they simply believe different things to you and I.


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## IainP (Jan 24, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			I said this a couple of days ago. Tier systems have *always* led to a lockdown, so they don’t work. Economy is broken so another 6-8 weeks won’t matter. Scientists now will want to hold out with lockdown I would think until 55/60 and above vaccinate.
		
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Not necessarily disagreeing with the conclusion but not following the working out. How many lockdowns are needed to determine "always"?
When we came out of lockdown 1 (May 2020) I for one was surprised just how well things went for several months. Just check the various stats. With the vaccination progress there's definitely an argument for coming out - just the timing


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## Ethan (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and what happens when the ‘first receivers‘ 12 weeks is up and they start flowing in to get their 2nd...like we find in golf with a two tee start - as soon as those starting on the 10th complete the 18th the numbers starting on the 1st drops to accommodate those coming round because there is only so much capacity I.e. one 1st tee.  Will we have the capacity of both vaccine and resources to cope with ‘parallel vaccinating’...for both 1st and 2nd vaccinations.

If we build capacity in advance of the 12weeks pt as I am sure we are then we will get increased 1st vaccination for a while - which will be great - but then that 1st vaccination rate will drop significantly as the 2nd vaccinations are given.
		
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Excellent question. When this delay was first announced, many in the medical profession said, "Hang on, so all these people will be arriving back just as we hit peak vaccination pace. How's that going to work?". There are many questions. One is whether vaccine has been set aside for the 12 week second vacc patients, and how how first and second vacc patients are going to be prioritised. It has the potential to cause some issues. Rumours that a large private contract has been placed suggests that our friends at Serco, or similar, are going to wheeled in at eye-watering cost (and for different reasons, eye-watering performance) to do a lot of the vaccinating.

If you asked the Army logistics people to advise, they would probably have placed a lot of emphasis in clearing 2nd vaccs for key NHS and care home personnel and only delaying the civilians.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 24, 2021)

Hopefully we’ll see some easing of the lockdown by early March or sooner.

We were warned last summer that this Winter could be bad and with the slight chink of light appearing at the end of the tunnel, Spring and the warmer weather will also help in the fight.


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## Ethan (Jan 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



*Hopefully we’ll see some easing of the lockdown by early March or sooner.*

We were warned last summer that this Winter could be bad and with the slight chink of light appearing at the end of the tunnel, Spring and the warmer weather will also help in the fight.
		
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I think that is rather unlikely. I don't expect my kids to go back to school before Easter, and schools are the barometer for a lot of other stuff.


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## Imurg (Jan 24, 2021)

IainP said:



			Not necessarily disagreeing with the conclusion but not following the working out. How many lockdowns are needed to determine "always"?
When we came out of lockdown 1 (May 2020) I for one was surprised just how well things went for several months. Just check the various stats. With the vaccination progress there's definitely an argument for coming out - just the timing
		
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What, I think,  they have to avoid is another lockdown.
The timing of easing restrictions has to be right so that we keep on top of the virus and not let it take hold again.
I think they'll come down on the side of caution, risk another few weeks of lockdown to get more vaccinated and drive new cases to rock bottom.
Come out too early and it could be dangerous.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember - there are no stupid or ignorant people in this country...they simply believe different things to you and I.
		
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If you truly believe that they are not stupid & ignorant then you are as bad as they are.


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## Imurg (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			i cannot comment on my personal concerns without reference to those who are putting in place the framework for my life and my confidence in their ability to do the right thing at the right time.  If we do not have confidence in those leading us then we are in a bad place.

I just do not know else I can do express my worries because for as long as we are all, and business remains, as restricted as it currently is my life will be very significantly impacted - through how it impacts very seriously some of those closest to me as well as how it impacts myself directly.
		
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If youre u able to comment without veering into the political arena......don't comment..
Thats been my procedure since the political ban.
Seems to have worked..


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			i cannot comment on my personal concerns without reference to those who are putting in place the framework for my life and my confidence in their ability to do the right thing at the right time.  If we do not have confidence in those leading us then we are in a bad place.

I just do not know else I can do express my worries because for as long as we are all, and business remains, as restricted as it currently is my life will be very significantly impacted - through how it impacts very seriously some of those closest to me as well as how it impacts myself directly.
		
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99% of others on here manage.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think that is rather unlikely. I don't expect my kids to go back to school before Easter, and schools are the barometer for a lot of other stuff.
		
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Ethan man! You’re like a cloud on a sunny day. Just trying to keep my glass half full.


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## Imurg (Jan 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Ethan man! You’re like a cloud on a sunny day. Just trying to keep my glass half full.

Click to expand...

I'd take the dregs in the bottom of the glass at the moment


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## Reemul (Jan 24, 2021)

I think we may get some year groups in before Easter but not all of them, same as last time. Easter being early this year is not helping, if Easter was at the end of the month they may have been more pressure but it but Good Friday being the 02/04 means kids are missing the first 2 weeks of April anyways.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Ethan man! You’re like a cloud on a sunny day. Just trying to keep my glass half full.

Click to expand...




Imurg said:



			I'd take the dregs in the bottom of the glass at the moment
		
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Having a glass would be a start...


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## Ethan (Jan 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Ethan man! You’re like a cloud on a sunny day. Just trying to keep my glass half full.

Click to expand...

I am a 'plan for the worst, hope for the best' kinda guy. That always works out better than the opposite. If you set expectations and then improve them, people are happy. If you reach the same position the other way round, they aren't.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

IainP said:



			Not necessarily disagreeing with the conclusion but not following the working out. How many lockdowns are needed to determine "always"?
When we came out of lockdown 1 (May 2020) I for one was surprised just how well things went for several months. Just check the various stats. With the vaccination progress there's definitely an argument for coming out *- just the timing*

Click to expand...

And that’s the bit I think the scientists will want to delay and leave everything to happen until Easter. With regards my comment regarding lockdown, it was meant that there was a lockdown following a release to tier system irrespective of how long we were in the tier system for.


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

AdamW said:



			The level of stupid here is off the charts:







Click to expand...

I was wondering what the hell was going on here and what the main speaker’s end goal really was but then at around 8 minutes he confirmed my worst suspicion; he’s a conspiracy theory nut job and doesn’t believe the virus is real. Sigh.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 24, 2021)

Despite repeated warnings one poster continues to post political comments. A 7 day ban has been handed out as a result.

Please remember the rules
Hands Face Space & no politics 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am a 'plan for the worst, hope for the best' kinda guy. That always works out better than the opposite. If you set expectations and then improve them, people are happy. If you reach the same position the other way round, they aren't.
		
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Always the optimist me, with the review due mid Feb, saying March was my ‘plan for the worst’


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

AdamW said:



			The level of stupid here is off the charts:







Click to expand...

Sorry to labour this video and repeat comment but having watched it all through, I just wanted to comment that I genuinely cried at around 15 minutes out of pure sadness and frustration for the doctor. He’s only one person on the front line who has to face this idiotic questioning and people belittling the effort they’re going to in order to help people and save lives. To have someone stand there and basically tell you that what you’re doing isn’t real must feel like such a huge slap in the face and be utterly demoralising. I’m genuinely so sad and angered by these sorts of attitudes.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Despite repeated warnings one poster continues to post political comments. A 7 day ban has been handed out as a result.

Please remember the rules
Hands Face Space & no politics 👍
		
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Is that a typo Fragger; should it not read 7 months?


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Sorry to labour this video and repeat comment but having watched it all through, I just wanted to comment that I genuinely cried at around 15 minutes out of pure sadness and frustration for the doctor. He’s only one person on the front line who has to face this idiotic questioning and people belittling the effort they’re going to in order to help people and save lives. To have someone stand there and basically tell you that what you’re doing isn’t real must feel like such a huge slap in the face and be utterly demoralising. I’m genuinely so sad and angered by these sorts of attitudes.
		
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You weren't the only one thinking that.  I really cannot comprehend what he didn't understand about the fact that the patient would die if he removed him.


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			You weren't the only one thinking that.  I really cannot comprehend what he didn't understand about the fact that the patient would die if he removed him.
		
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BECAUSE YOU CAN’T DEFINE COVID 19 AND IT WAS DECLASSIFIED AS A DANGEROUS DISEASE IN MARCH 2020!!!!!

...he says, quoting tropes he saw on a David Icke video on YouTube whilst ignoring actual medical science.

I’m amazed he didn’t try to invoke Article 61 of Magna Carta for the full conspiracy bingo.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I appreciate that financially it doesn't affect me, and I know I'm fortunate, but my feeling is that for the long term benefit of all of us, a slightly longer lockdown this time to finally get things under control would be much better than coming out too soon and then flip-flopping in and out of various levels of restrictions in the future.
		
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The problem as i see it is there is no end in sight, they wont give us any real idea as to when we can look forward to so people are basically sayi g sod this,I've had enough, and are ignoring the restrictions, thus draggung it out longer for the rest of us. I think it would be better maybe if they said we are having the mother of all lockdowns, even stricter than last spring, but put an end date on it. 4 weeks, 6 maybe. That way peolpe would be more inclined to abide by the rules


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## upsidedown (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Sorry to labour this video and repeat comment but having watched it all through, I just wanted to comment that I genuinely cried at around 15 minutes out of pure sadness and frustration for the doctor. He’s only one person on the front line who has to face this idiotic questioning and people belittling the effort they’re going to in order to help people and save lives. To have someone stand there and basically tell you that what you’re doing isn’t real must feel like such a huge slap in the face and be utterly demoralising. I’m genuinely so sad and angered by these sorts of attitudes.
		
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I fear its not an isolated incident. When my wife worked on SCBU it was always the parents that caused issues with pushing boundaries and abusing staff. Yes I know its frustrating you're not being updated as to the patients condition and progress but the action of nursing will alway come first to ensure everything is done for the patient


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I appreciate that financially it doesn't affect me, and I know I'm fortunate, but my feeling is that for the long term benefit of all of us, a slightly longer lockdown this time to finally get things under control would be much better than coming out too soon and then flip-flopping in and out of various levels of restrictions in the future.
		
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That the key issue - finding the balance for what’s right for us all , some are ok with lockdown and it doesn’t affect the financially or mentally where as some are on the edge in regards both ( with some already other the edge ) . I can see this being the last lockdown we have with the vaccine being around. Tier system is going to be key


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			BECAUSE YOU CAN’T DEFINE COVID 19 AND *IT WAS DECLASSIFIED AS A DANGEROUS DISEASE IN MARCH 2020!!!!!*

...he says, quoting tropes he saw on a David Icke video on YouTube whilst ignoring actual medical science.

I’m amazed he didn’t try to invoke Article 61 of Magna Carta for the full conspiracy bingo.
		
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He's almost got a point;

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#history

Unfortunately he might have read the headline but clearly doesn't understand the full content.

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-hcid/


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			I fear its not an isolated incident. When my wife worked on SCBU it was always the parents that caused issues with pushing boundaries and abusing staff. Yes I know its frustrating you're not being updated as to the patients condition and progress but the action of nursing will alway come first to ensure everything is done for the patient
		
Click to expand...

Oh absolutely. I can get why people become selfish, for lack of a better word, when it’s their own family who are sick or dying and I would expect medical professionals to take that into account when dealing with the family and friends of a patient. The medical professionals and even the security staff showed remarkable restraint in this video. The one young doctor who does most of the talking is visibly shaken by what he’s being confronted with in my opinion yet still remains in control. An excellent young man.


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			He's almost got a point;

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#history

Unfortunately he might have read the headline but clearly doesn't understand the full content.

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-hcid/

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Oh yea, it’s one I’ve seen mentioned a lot. I’m a glutton for punishment when it comes to reading and watching conspiracy theory stuff! It’s just standard form for them to pick one tiny piece of the jigsaw and think they’ve solved it. It’s a basic example of a common human trait - we do all want to think we’ve cracked the case. Sadly it usually just demonstrates the Dunning-Kruger effect; the less intelligent a person is the less likely they are to doubt their own views and challenge them critically.


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## chrisd (Jan 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			You weren't the only one thinking that.  I really cannot comprehend what he didn't understand about the fact that the patient would die if he removed him.
		
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I didnt get that the health of the patient was important to the idiot, it was all about him. Security should have dragged him out on film or not!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			The problem as i see it is there is no end in sight, they wont give us any real idea as to when we can look forward to so people are basically sayi g sod this,I've had enough, and are ignoring the restrictions, thus draggung it out longer for the rest of us. I think it would be better maybe if they said we are having the mother of all lockdowns, even stricter than last spring, but put an end date on it. 4 weeks, 6 maybe. That way peolpe would be more inclined to abide by the rules
		
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They won't know what the absolute situation will be as it relies on the general public conforming to rules and we have seen time and again how these get disregarded.  I guess we get the type of lockdown we deserve.


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## Ethan (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			BECAUSE YOU CAN’T DEFINE COVID 19 AND IT WAS DECLASSIFIED AS A DANGEROUS DISEASE IN MARCH 2020!!!!!

...he says, quoting tropes he saw on a David Icke video on YouTube whilst ignoring actual medical science.

I’m amazed he didn’t try to invoke Article 61 of Magna Carta for the full conspiracy bingo.
		
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In March or April Covid was removed from the list of High Consequence Infectious Diseases by a committee said to be independent of Govt. At the time, many suspected this was to give better legal liability against challenges to the quality of PPE. 

This was based on longstanding criteria for a HCID which Covid did not all fulfil. But that is not the same as saying it is or is not a dangerous disease. 

HCID

Perhaps the most useful conclusion is that this definition is not really fit for purpose.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I didnt get that the health of the patient was important to the idiot, it was all about him. Security should have dragged him out on film or not!
		
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I thought no visitors or relatives were allowed ?
So he should not have been there in the first place!
So stupid.


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## chrisd (Jan 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought no visitors or relatives were allowed ?
So he should not have been there in the first place!
So stupid.
		
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Absolutely, I was in hospital on Friday and Mrs d sat in the car for nearly 3 hours


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Absolutely, I was in hospital on Friday and Mrs d sat in the car for nearly 3 hours
		
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Hope you're ok now.


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## chrisd (Jan 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Hope you're ok now.
		
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Thanks SR - After an injection in the eyeball 😉


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			If you truly believe that they are not stupid & ignorant then you are as bad as they are.
		
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He doesn't, but it's another chance for him to get a subtle (or not so subtle) dig in about some Brexiters being stupid without having to come right out with it.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Thanks SR - After an injection in the eyeball 😉
		
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Bit extreme for an everlasting youth drug. I would think about getting your money back though😁


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## chrisd (Jan 24, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Bit extreme for an everlasting youth drug. I would think about getting your money back though😁
		
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 I can see what you mean !


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## Slime (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember - there are no stupid or ignorant people in this country...they simply believe different things to you and I.
		
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Probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

Slime said:



			Probably one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read.
		
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I think and hope he was being sarcastic!


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			He doesn't, but it's another chance for him to get a subtle (or not so subtle) dig in about some Brexiters being stupid without having to come right out with it.
		
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Well it's cost him a holiday this time.


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## Slime (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think and hope he was being sarcastic!
		
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I wouldn't bet on it.


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## Old Skier (Jan 24, 2021)

I think I might know 500 guys who would love to provide some “Aid to the Civil
power”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55787044


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought no visitors or relatives were allowed ?
So he should not have been there in the first place!
So stupid.
		
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I was under that impression too but it seems two people were allowed on the ward at any one time. (Dying)
I was also surprised that those visiting didn’t need to isolate considering it’s a hub of infection and the reason for visiting was that the person caught it from hospital.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Thanks SR - After an injection in the eyeball 😉
		
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Oooooooooh that sounds awful.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 24, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353373463331786753
👏

Also if Israel are to be the front runner to look at - serious cases of Covid have dropped significantly 

Also does anyone else think this is beyond stupid 



not being able to buy children’s books because a Tescos has taped the area off ?!


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 24, 2021)

Bunch of jobsworths.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353373463331786753
👏

Also if Israel are to be the front runner to look at - serious cases of Covid have dropped significantly

Also does anyone else think this is beyond stupid

View attachment 34682

not being able to buy children’s books because a Tescos has taped the area off ?!
		
Click to expand...

The issue with the books is about fairness to independent booksellers who have been forced to close during lockdown. Is it fair that Tesco can keep selling because they also sell food? It seems daft but not if it's your business that is shut and suffering right now.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 24, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I was under that impression too but it seems two people were allowed on the ward at any one time. (Dying)
I was also surprised that those visiting didn’t need to isolate considering it’s a hub of infection and the reason for visiting was that the person caught it from hospital.
		
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I think that requires the patient to be beyond further medical assistance in the opinion of the doctors in charge and requires the hospital staff to invite you in. 

I don’t think it covers people dying because their idiot friends think removing them from medical care including oxygen and replacing that care with vitamins is a better treatment.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 24, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The issue with the books is about fairness to independent booksellers who have been forced to close during lockdown. Is it fair that Tesco can keep selling because they also sell food? It seems daft but not if it's your business that is shut and suffering right now.
		
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Yet you can order books online 🤷‍♂️ - have they stopped Amazon from selling everything an independent shop can sell ? 

These are kids books with many used for home schooling and education purposes 

Where do you stop ? Is there a list of what people are allowed to buy now - is that the level we are going to .


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## chrisd (Jan 24, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Oooooooooh that sounds awful.
		
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Well, the way I look at it ........ 😉


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 24, 2021)

Just seen on BBC news about 20/25 cops in riot gear breaking up a rave.
Yet only £15000 of fines.
If the reason more people were not fined at the weddings going on in the school was police numbers 
Why is it so low in this instance with so many officers there.
Must have cost more than that to set this up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yet you can order books online 🤷‍♂️ - have they stopped Amazon from selling everything an independent shop can sell ?

These are kids books with many used for home schooling and education purposes

Where do you stop ? Is there a list of what people are allowed to buy now - is that the level we are going to .
		
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Independent booksellers can sell online as well and tough though it is against the likes of Amazon they have at least got a chance. They have no chance against a shop that is actually open though. If you think it is stupid then feel free to have that conversation with a small shop owner who has been forced to close whilst supermarkets can stay open and sell exactly the same products that forced the shop to close.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember - there are no stupid or ignorant people in this country...they simply believe different things to you and I.
		
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Simply my arse. Whether they are ignorant , stupid or whatever- the question is- are they dangerous?   If they are , deal with them to eliminate that danger.
On your thinking, anything goes because it is merely a different opinion.
Now, if you believe that truly , you are no help at all, ( being euphemistic ), but I do wonder if you were not being facetious?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 24, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The issue with the books is about fairness to independent booksellers who have been forced to close during lockdown. Is it fair that Tesco can keep selling because they also sell food? It seems daft but not if it's your business that is shut and suffering right now.
		
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Mate, the picture is a non-story, if you look at the blue sign in the picture it’s in Welsh, this is from the Lockdown in November when the Welsh Government banned all supermarkets from selling non-essential items.

They revisited the policy ahead of the latest lockdown and books are not on the list, however, things like toys, clothes etc are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 24, 2021)

Positive cases continue to drop down , the number of deaths has also dropped - the positive cases will continue to drop but will still have a high death number at the moment. 

It’s very hard to be positive about lockdown easing when Media etc and people make the choices comment on little snippets about everything extending.

Right now there are people “rebelling” against the lockdown ( mainly people before the age of 55) - if the lockdown gets extended then I can see that only getting worse. Even more so if the weather starts to improve and more businesses fall away


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Sorry to labour this video and repeat comment but having watched it all through, I just wanted to comment that I genuinely cried at around 15 minutes out of pure sadness and frustration for the doctor. He’s only one person on the front line who has to face this idiotic questioning and people belittling the effort they’re going to in order to help people and save lives. To have someone stand there and basically tell you that what you’re doing isn’t real must feel like such a huge slap in the face and be utterly demoralising. I’m genuinely so sad and angered by these sorts of attitudes.
		
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I havent watched this video, it's been removed apparently, but having gathered from the posts roughly what was going on, maybe it's a good job I didn't because I am fed up with being so angry as I get with these idiots.
I understand your reason for posting this - for you as a NHS worker to see that, knowing more than most here what those Drs and nurses are going through, must be awful. 
But, don't reproach yourself for your anger. If it's justified it's virtuous.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Mate, the picture is a non-story, if you look at the blue sign in the picture it’s in Welsh, this is from the Lockdown in November when the Welsh Government banned all supermarkets from selling non-essential items.

They revisited the policy ahead of the latest lockdown and books are not on the list, however, things like toys, clothes etc are.
		
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Ah, I remember this. 👍


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

Well I’ve had my first jab and no ill effects but I really want to buy a new Xbox and upgrade Windows.


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## Old Skier (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Well I’ve had my first jab and no ill effects but I really want to buy a new Xbox and upgrade Windows.
		
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UPVC or hard wood frames?


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## USER1999 (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Well I’ve had my first jab and no ill effects but I really want to buy a new Xbox and upgrade Windows.
		
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Do you not feel you are being traced all the time? Apparently the nanobots don't work under tin foil.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 24, 2021)

He might even hit a fairway again when he gets back on the course.


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## 2blue (Jan 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Well I’ve had my first jab and no ill effects but I really want to buy a new Xbox and upgrade Windows.
		
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Just got mine tonight at Elland Road, due to being Foster Carers. No ill effects but a bit worrying to have just run out of Whisky.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 24, 2021)

2blue said:



			Just got mine tonight at Elland Road, due to being Foster Carers. No ill effects but a bit worrying to have just run out of Whisky. 

Click to expand...

Good news mate.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 24, 2021)

My wife 64 works in a school and is shielding no vaccine yet.
So school short of staff!
My mate 50 got his vaccine Thursday because he works in an opticians . He glazes the frames so nowhere near the public.
Could someone please explain this to me.


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## Kellfire (Jan 24, 2021)

2blue said:



			Just got mine tonight at Elland Road, due to being Foster Carers. No ill effects but a bit worrying to have just run out of Whisky. 

Click to expand...

I went to Jimmy’s so I got Pfizer. Hope that AZ works out for ya. ☺️


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## Crazyface (Jan 25, 2021)

After much discussion over many Thursday and Sunday lunches my wife and I finally persuaded my mum, who is 82 and VERY anti doctors, and refuses to go to one, to have the jab, which she has now has, thank God. Just one problem, she's gonna blame us if she has any reaction. You'll be glad to know all is well.....so far. ☺️


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 25, 2021)

One newspaper screaming for the schools to re-open and four pages later, howling at a lack of lockdowns.   Truly unbelievable.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 25, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353714343242833920
👍👍👏👏


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## Piece (Jan 25, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Do you not feel you are being traced all the time? Apparently the nanobots don't work under tin foil.
		
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If you hide in the microwave, they can’t find you there.


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## bobmac (Jan 25, 2021)

Good news.
32 new vaccination venues.
Not so good if you don't like flying


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 25, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353736519006224384
Numbers dropping


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## Old Skier (Jan 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353736519006224384
Numbers dropping
		
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Unfortunatly always do on Monday, hopefully the rise tomorrow isn’t to great


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunatly always do on Monday, hopefully the rise tomorrow isn’t to great
		
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Yep - this time last Monday was just under 35k cases so the drop is significant

Vaccines numbers are great 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353743931981312003


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 25, 2021)

Teachers are apparently not at a higher risk of death from Covid than average;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55795608

Please don't shoot the messenger...


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## larmen (Jan 25, 2021)

AstraZeneca vaccine is rejected for 'old people' in the EU?

I assume it is because it hasn't been tested? More for the young ones to go around.


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## Old Skier (Jan 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			AstraZeneca vaccine is rejected for 'old people' in the EU?

I assume it is because it hasn't been tested? More for the young ones to go around.
		
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Interesting statement by Commissioner Kyriakides on AstraZenica today. You’ll have to google it just in case it is deemed political.


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## bobmac (Jan 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			AstraZeneca vaccine is rejected for 'old people' in the EU?

I assume it is because it hasn't been tested? More for the young ones to go around.
		
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Have you fact checked that?


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## Old Skier (Jan 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Have you fact checked that?
		
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Not yet received any approval by the EMA, due by the end of the week.


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## Ethan (Jan 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			AstraZeneca vaccine is rejected for 'old people' in the EU?

I assume it is because it hasn't been tested? More for the young ones to go around.
		
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Approx 1000 of the 4800 patients in the UK study and 420/4800 in the Brazil study over 56 years, and only half of them received the actual vaccine, so not a very convincing data set. The AZ data is quite frustrating. They have what os probably a pretty good vaccine, but some of the execution of the study has been clumsy, and what looks like several quite separate studies have been combined into one rather unwieldy data set. It looks a lot like studies designed by academics rather than pharma, which usually doesn't allow these elements to crop in. 

The MHRA approach to it has been a bit odd. There is at least as much data to support a low dose-standard dose regimen as there is to support a delayed interval. The EMA and FDA have been very much less persuaded overall. I think if the EMA have decided to withhold it from older patients, that is fairly rational, and may also reflect their concern that the efficacy is a bit lighter than Pfizer/Moderna.


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## Old Skier (Jan 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Approx 1000 of the 4800 patients in the UK study and 420/4800 in the Brazil study over 56 years, and only half of them received the actual vaccine, so not a very convincing data set. The AZ data is quite frustrating. They have what os probably a pretty good vaccine, but some of the execution of the study has been clumsy, and what looks like several quite separate studies have been combined into one rather unwieldy data set. It looks a lot like studies designed by academics rather than pharma, which usually doesn't allow these elements to crop in.

The MHRA approach to it has been a bit odd. There is at least as much data to support a low dose-standard dose regimen as there is to support a delayed interval. The EMA and FDA have been very much less persuaded overall. I think if the EMA have decided to withhold it from older patients, that is fairly rational, and may also reflect their concern that the efficacy is a bit lighter than Pfizer/Moderna.
		
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Still very keen to get their allocation of the vaccine though.


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## Ethan (Jan 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Still very keen to get their allocation of the vaccine though.
		
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Sure, why wouldn't they? They have bought and paid for a load of it, and now are trying to determine the best use. If they have concluded that it should be given to younger patients at lower risk of complications and death, that would be a very rational decision.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Approx 1000 of the 4800 patients in the UK study and 420/4800 in the Brazil study over 56 years, and only half of them received the actual vaccine, so not a very convincing data set. The AZ data is quite frustrating. They have what os probably a pretty good vaccine, but some of the execution of the study has been clumsy, and what looks like several quite separate studies have been combined into one rather unwieldy data set. It looks a lot like studies designed by academics rather than pharma, which usually doesn't allow these elements to crop in.

The MHRA approach to it has been a bit odd. *There is at least as much data to support a low dose-standard dose regimen as there is to support a delayed interval.* The EMA and FDA have been very much less persuaded overall. I think if the EMA have decided to withhold it from older patients, that is fairly rational, and may also reflect their concern that the efficacy is a bit lighter than Pfizer/Moderna.
		
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This is the bit that I don't get. My understanding is that there is some evidence (from a ?mistake? during the trials) that giving half a dose followed 3 weeks later by a full dose has been shown to produce better results but there isn't enough data to positively confirm this. However they've decided to go with a 12 week interval between full doses even though there is no evidence to support this. Why or how do they ignore the first with some evidence but accept the second with no evidence?

Is there an explanation to this Ethan?


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## bobmac (Jan 25, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why or how do they ignore the first with some evidence but accept the second *with no evidence*?
		
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How do you know there is no evidence


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How do you know there is no evidence
		
Click to expand...

Because as I understand it no trials have been done with giving the two jabs 12 weeks apart. The trials were done with a 3 week interval and a mistake led to the suggestion that the half dose/full dose regime gave better results. I've seen nothing that suggests that there were any trials with a 12 week interval. And in the absence of data showing that the 12 week interval works then there is no evidence.

I'm not saying that I disagree with the current plan but I'm confused as to why it was accepted but the half dose/full dose was rejected due to lack of evidence. As I saw it put on social media, if I'm driving my car at night I would rather every other car had one headlight rather than half of them having two and half of them having none. Giving as many people as possible the protection of the first injection seems a sensible route to take. My question was simply how could they do that without evidence that a 12 week gap would be ok but reject the other option even though there is some data to support it. Maybe it's as simple as giving the full dose in the first injection gives more protection than giving half a dose first but I just don't know.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 25, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is the bit that I don't get. My understanding is that there is some evidence (from a ?mistake? during the trials) that giving half a dose followed 3 weeks later by a full dose has been shown to produce better results but there isn't enough data to positively confirm this. However they've decided to go with a 12 week interval between full doses even though there is no evidence to support this. Why or how do they ignore the first with some evidence but accept the second with no evidence?

Is there an explanation to this Ethan?
		
Click to expand...

It appears that the vaccine was produced, tested for potency and released. Later tests after it had been dispensed to patients revealed that the original analysis was wrong and over-rated the potency, which was actually closer to half the potency. This occurred in a group intended to receive only one dose, but when that dose was realised to be a low dose, they decided that wouldn't do so amended the protocol to add in a second standard dose. So the study was re-engineered as a study of low dose first shot, standard dose second shot. As it happens, there was a theory going around anyway that this sort of dosing regimen may be a good idea, because the body mounts an immune response to the vector used to transport the vaccine, and the thinking was that a lower dose would stimulate a smaller immune reaction against the vector, so that when the booster was given, it wasn't partially blocked by the immune response the first one induced. For similar reasons, the Russian Sputnik uses two different vectors which don't cross-react. so this inadvertent low dose-standard dose arm in the study showed a very strong response, 90% reduction, compared to the 60% reception for the standard dose-standard dose arms. this low dose arm was in a decent number of patients, and the statistical question was whether it was likely that this was a random chance finding and the true answer was that the standard dose arm was better. I think that was highly unlikely, and there really was no scientific bar to proving the low dose- standard dose arm.

Turns out that a low dose-standard dose regimen might now be a good thing as we are a bit short of vaccine, and supplies would go further on the low dose regimen.

One other effect of this dosing error/chance happening was that the study protocol amendment extended the interval before a second dose could be given, so data on a dosing interval of up to 12 weeks is available. This is not in a massive number of patients, though, and although the shorter interval shows a better effect than the longer interval, it isn't by much and certainly less than the difference between the low dose and standard dose regimens.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that a pragmatic fix was needed and the longer interval served that intention well enough for them to take a punt and make the scientific interpretation fit the practical need. It also seems that the FDA and EMA have been less persuaded by the messy data set presented to them and have spent longer trying to disentangle it, and might come to different conclusions.


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## BTatHome (Jan 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Teachers are apparently not at a higher risk of death from Covid than average;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55795608

Please don't shoot the messenger...
		
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Good news that less die ... unfortunately they still contract the virus and still close classes/schools because of it.

I'm assuming some group is using this to strengthen the fact they don't consider education important enough to be vaccinated earlier ... which is a shame considering the way the virus has run through my school in recent times.


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## bobmac (Jan 25, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Because as I understand it no trials have been done with giving the two jabs 12 weeks apart.
		
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I totally agree as we've only had the vaccine for 7 weeks.
But there is research that shows those who have delayed their second dose have in in fact shown an increase in the affect of the vaccine.
Start watching at 8:46 and note 10:00 onwards






As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence to show that there is a drop of efficacy after 3 weeks after the first dose. However, I could be wrong.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I totally agree as we've only had the vaccine for 7 weeks.
But there is research that shows those who have delayed their second dose have in in fact shown an increase in the affect of the vaccine.
Start watching at 8:46 and note 10:00 onwards






As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence to show that is a drop of efficacy after 3 weeks after the first dose. However, I could be wrong.
		
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Cheers Bob, good to see that there might be benefits to the current strategy. Fingers crossed.


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## Ethan (Jan 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I totally agree as we've only had the vaccine for 7 weeks.
But there is research that shows those who have delayed their second dose have in in fact shown an increase in the affect of the vaccine.
Start watching at 8:46 and note 10:00 onwards






As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence to show that is a drop of efficacy after 3 weeks after the first dose. However, I could be wrong.
		
Click to expand...

There is no evidence, nor any plausible theory, that efficacy will drop after 3 weeks, or 3 months either. Natural infection is a one dose event. The different vaccines don't have differing ways of conferring immunity. They start slightly differently but all converge after 48 hours. 

There is some evidence that a delayed second dose of AZ gives a better response, but not a massively better one.


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## bobmac (Jan 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is some evidence that a delayed second dose of AZ gives a better response, but not a massively better one.
		
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So extending the gap between the first and second doses beyond 3 weeks could be beneficial as far as the current data suggests?


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## drdel (Jan 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So extending the gap between the first and second doses beyond 3 weeks could be beneficial as far as the current data suggests?
		
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Yup. AZ Yes! Pfizer less increase in efficacy detected.


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## Ethan (Jan 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			Yup. AZ Yes! Pfizer less increase in efficacy detected.
		
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I would say AZ yes, a bit increased.
Pfizer generates a more powerful response so less headroom for additional improvement through longer intervals but no reason to think the immunity generated follows a different pattern.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

A couple of things that have affected my family in the last month which consequences of Covid rather than actually catching it ourselves.

Firstly, our daughter is in Year 2 although her birthday is in the last couple of days of August so she is the youngest in the year, this has meant that whilst she loves school she has always been playing catch up in an educational front. She missed out on her final term and a half in Year 1 and is now out of school again whilst we endure the present school closures. These closures have had a huge impact on her learning and with her meant to start Junior School in September we have made the decision for her to drop back down to Year 1 when the schools open (whenever that might be) and then she'll repeat Year 2 in September. This isn't something that I would ever have considered previously however we are in the slightly unusual position in that we moved house late last year so she was meant to start her new school in January. This didn't happen so she's not made any friends and has only seen her class briefly in Zoom calls. This has meant that we don't have the worries about her being separated from friends and dealing with being put down a year whilst all of her friends move onwards. It was a good opportunity for us to allow her to catch up and make up most of the time that has been lost over the last 12 months. 

At the other end of the spectrum we have my grandfather who is 101 years old. Up until June of last year he was one of the 'youngest' 101 year olds that you'll ever meet, he lived in his own home, no real assistance bar my mum checking up on him every day. He was very much a creature of habit, went to get his paper, had a Guinness etc. Due to age he was told to shield and so this disrupted his daily routine, he didn't like this and much to my mum's annoyance he continued a normal life as he didn't want to spend his final months cooped up. After a couple of falls the decision was made that he'd now be better off in a care home and he was moved there in October. It's a nice place, well run so no complaints however it wasn't his home and it threw out his routine. Unfortunately over the last couple of months, due to hospital visits and a Covid outbreak in his home he has spent 6 weeks almost entirely in his room. It's not a large room and he's obviously not allowed to have visitors so he's had almost no movement and as a result he cannot walk and is now wheelchair bound. His mental health has dropped off a cliff and he is now back in the war, we've stopped having phone calls as he doesn't know who we are any more and only sporadically recognises my mum. It's really sad to watch his decline having been to fit and health both mentally and physically for 100 odd years!!


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 26, 2021)

The school thing is becoming a media target.  Without wanting to get political, every parent wants the schools to re-open and probably so does the Government.  Will then open after half-term etc etc.    So if they announce it will happen, people make plans and then the virus situation changes.  They have to postpone that decision and then everyone screams about u-turns and affecting children's futures.  What the hell do you do?


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 26, 2021)

I really hope that what is happening in Netherlands now won't spread to the UK. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55799919


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I really hope that what is happening in Netherlands now won't spread to the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55799919

Click to expand...

It has potential to go that way if the lockdown extends for a significant period - it’s a scary thought but can certainly see some protests in lockdown continues into March without some level of easing


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I really hope that what is happening in Netherlands now won't spread to the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55799919

Click to expand...

If it's announced that schools are not to open until after Easter then you're going to have roving groups of home schooling parents front and centre in any uprising!


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## Dannyc (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			A couple of things that have affected my family in the last month which consequences of Covid rather than actually catching it ourselves.

Firstly, our daughter is in Year 2 although her birthday is in the last couple of days of August so she is the youngest in the year, this has meant that whilst she loves school she has always been playing catch up in an educational front. She missed out on her final term and a half in Year 1 and is now out of school again whilst we endure the present school closures. These closures have had a huge impact on her learning and with her meant to start Junior School in September we have made the decision for her to drop back down to Year 1 when the schools open (whenever that might be) and then she'll repeat Year 2 in September. This isn't something that I would ever have considered previously however we are in the slightly unusual position in that we moved house late last year so she was meant to start her new school in January. This didn't happen so she's not made any friends and has only seen her class briefly in Zoom calls. This has meant that we don't have the worries about her being separated from friends and dealing with being put down a year whilst all of her friends move onwards. It was a good opportunity for us to allow her to catch up and make up most of the time that has been lost over the last 12 months.

At the other end of the spectrum we have my grandfather who is 101 years old. Up until June of last year he was one of the 'youngest' 101 year olds that you'll ever meet, he lived in his own home, no real assistance bar my mum checking up on him every day. He was very much a creature of habit, went to get his paper, had a Guinness etc. Due to age he was told to shield and so this disrupted his daily routine, he didn't like this and much to my mum's annoyance he continued a normal life as he didn't want to spend his final months cooped up. After a couple of falls the decision was made that he'd now be better off in a care home and he was moved there in October. It's a nice place, well run so no complaints however it wasn't his home and it threw out his routine. Unfortunately over the last couple of months, due to hospital visits and a Covid outbreak in his home he has spent 6 weeks almost entirely in his room. It's not a large room and he's obviously not allowed to have visitors so he's had almost no movement and as a result he cannot walk and is now wheelchair bound. His mental health has dropped off a cliff and he is now back in the war, we've stopped having phone calls as he doesn't know who we are any more and only sporadically recognises my mum. It's really sad to watch his decline having been to fit and health both mentally and physically for 100 odd years!!
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately there are many very sad cases like this 
I wish him all the best


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It has potential to go that way if the lockdown extends for a significant period - it’s a scary thought but can certainly see some protests in lockdown continues into March without some level of easing
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can see that happening too. Although, I don't think it'll be actual "protests", but people seeing it as an opportunity to cause mayhem for the fun of it as they're idiots. 



road2ruin said:



			If it's announced that schools are not to open until after Easter then you're going to have roving groups of home schooling parents front and centre in any uprising! 

Click to expand...


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah, I can see that happening too. Although, I don't think it'll be actual "protests", but people seeing it as an opportunity to cause mayhem for the fun of it as they're idiots.





Click to expand...

I can certainly see demonstrations coming if this goes on too long. You look at some places and they have been under some form of restriction since the first lockdown. Even where I am, we have been in Tier 3 or 4 since the end of October/beginning of November and so we are just coming up to 3 months effectively in lockdown. If you take it to the end of March, there are places that have effectively been locked down for over 6 months.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 26, 2021)

It'll be interesting to find out how many of those 400 wedding guests actually catch the virus, if any.

20 years ago we attended a posh wedding in a giant marque with 100 guests,  99 of us caught the Flu, the bride's mother for some strange reason was the only exception .
The marque was heated by large gas fan heaters, I think this possibly made the situation worse.
This was the first and only time the wife and I had any kind of Flu, we thought we were dying . Fingers crossed .


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## Old Skier (Jan 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I really hope that what is happening in Netherlands now won't spread to the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55799919

Click to expand...

No chance we aren't allowed to use tear gas and we sold our only water cannon


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## anotherdouble (Jan 26, 2021)

Ethan out of idle chit chat with the wife. What would happen if a person had Pfizer jab and then due to no supply, illness or whatever had gone 15-16 etc weeks without the 2nd. Would they then have to start again from scratch. This is purely out of idle interest


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## larmen (Jan 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah, I can see that happening too. Although, I don't think it'll be actual "protests", but people seeing it as an opportunity to cause mayhem for the fun of it as they're idiots
		
Click to expand...

2011 all over again?
I remember the burning furniture store, the idiots ‘getting out taxes back’ looting, but I actually had to google what the reason was.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 26, 2021)

larmen said:



			2011 all over again?
I remember the burning furniture store, the idiots ‘getting out taxes back’ looting, but I actually had to google what the reason was.
		
Click to expand...

Really hope not, but nothing surprises me anymore to be honest.


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## Ethan (Jan 26, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Ethan out of idle chit chat with the wife. What would happen if a person had Pfizer jab and then due to no supply, illness or whatever had gone 15-16 etc weeks without the 2nd. Would they then have to start again from scratch. This is purely out of idle interest
		
Click to expand...

Probably would be fine. One shot of Pfizer triggers a very good immune response, perhaps as much as you ever need. You will develop antibodies but after a time, maybe 6 months or so, they will disappear. But you will also have immune memory, so if Covid paid you another visit, you would be able to quickly generate new antibodies. The body can't support having loads of antibody swirling around your circulation for everything you have ever encountered, so after a while, it sort of stands down the special forces and calls up reserves if needed.

The next vaccine due is from Johnson and Johnson, possibly reporting their headline results in the next few weeks. Their first trial is with a one shot vaccine (although they also have a 2 shot trial going a bit behind), so if that one has good results, it really raises the question of whether we need a booster at all. If I had received one Pfizer jab, I could be persuaded that was enough. I would need a stronger sell for the same if I had one AZ jab, though.

Option 2 is to have a second shot of whatever is available. There is a decent rationale for this too, but few have been tested. There is a trial ongoing with one shot of AZ and one shot of Russian Sputnik, which use similar but not identical methods.


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## Kellfire (Jan 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Probably would be fine. One shot of Pfizer triggers a very good immune response, perhaps as much as you ever need. You will develop antibodies but after a time, maybe 6 months or so, they will disappear. But you will also have immune memory, so if Covid paid you another visit, you would be able to quickly generate new antibodies. The body can't support having loads of antibody swirling around your circulation for everything you have ever encountered, so after a while, it sort of stands down the special forces and calls up reserves if needed.

The next vaccine due is from Johnson and Johnson, possibly reporting their headline results in the next few weeks. Their first trial is with a one shot vaccine (although they also have a 2 shot trial going a bit behind), so if that one has good results, it really raises the question of whether we need a booster at all. If I had received one Pfizer jab, I could be persuaded that was enough. I would need a stronger sell for the same if I had one AZ jab, though.

Option 2 is to have a second shot of whatever is available. There is a decent rationale for this too, but few have been tested. There is a trial ongoing with one shot of AZ and one shot of Russian Sputnik, which use similar but not identical methods.
		
Click to expand...

What you’ve outlined here is the main reason I decided on having the Pfizer over the AZ jab; if something does happen to slow or cancel my second jab, I’m probably in a better place.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Probably would be fine. One shot of Pfizer triggers a very good immune response, perhaps as much as you ever need. You will develop antibodies but after a time, maybe 6 months or so, they will disappear. But you will also have immune memory, so if Covid paid you another visit, you would be able to quickly generate new antibodies. The body can't support having loads of antibody swirling around your circulation for everything you have ever encountered, so after a while, it sort of stands down the special forces and calls up reserves if needed.

The next vaccine due is from Johnson and Johnson, possibly reporting their headline results in the next few weeks. Their first trial is with a one shot vaccine (although they also have a 2 shot trial going a bit behind), so if that one has good results, it really raises the question of whether we need a booster at all. If I had received one Pfizer jab, I could be persuaded that was enough. I would need a stronger sell for the same if I had one AZ jab, though.

Option 2 is to have a second shot of whatever is available. There is a decent rationale for this too, but few have been tested. There is a trial ongoing with one shot of AZ and one shot of Russian Sputnik, which use similar but not identical methods.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for in-depth response.


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## Ethan (Jan 26, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			What you’ve outlined here is the main reason I decided on having the Pfizer over the AZ jab; if something does happen to slow or cancel my second jab, I’m probably in a better place.
		
Click to expand...

Given a choice (and I don't expect to be), it is a no-brainer, and I would do precisely the same.


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## Kellfire (Jan 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Given a choice (and I don't expect to be), it is a no-brainer, and I would do precisely the same.
		
Click to expand...

I was lucky to be given the option and is it happened the Pfizer was also more convenient.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I can certainly see demonstrations coming if this goes on too long. You look at some places and they have been under some form of restriction since the first lockdown. Even where I am, we have been in Tier 3 or 4 since the end of October/beginning of November and so we are just coming up to 3 months effectively in lockdown. If you take it to the end of March, there are places that have effectively been locked down for over 6 months.
		
Click to expand...

If they had taken more care to restrict transmission then maybe they wouldn't be in lockdown. Nobody to blame but ourselves.


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If they had taken more care to restrict transmission then maybe they wouldn't be in lockdown. Nobody to blame but ourselves.
		
Click to expand...

Not at all. Some areas were put in higher tiers because of activity elsewhere the in the county. Next to no instance of covid in our village (think one or 2 cases) everyone well behaved, been effectively in lockdown for 3 months. I am certainly not going to blame myself.


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## chellie (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not at all. Some areas were put in higher tiers because of activity elsewhere the in the county. Next to no instance of covid in our village (think one or 2 cases) everyone well behaved, been effectively in lockdown for 3 months. I am certainly not going to blame myself.
		
Click to expand...

Same here with mine and HID's behaviour.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not at all. Some areas were put in higher tiers because of activity elsewhere the in the county. Next to no instance of covid in our village (think one or 2 cases) everyone well behaved, been effectively in lockdown for 3 months. I am certainly not going to blame myself.
		
Click to expand...

It's not possible to have tier or lockdown measures on a village basis, my region has been very low throughout but we are rounded up with neighbouring ones that aren't. Of course everyone isn't responsible but enough are when out of lockdown to create the infection and death rates we have been witnessing.


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not possible to have tier or lockdown measures on a village basis, my region has been very low throughout but we are rounded up with neighbouring ones that aren't. Of course everyone isn't responsible but enough are when out of lockdown to create the infection and death rates we have been witnessing.
		
Click to expand...

Fully accept that, just the wording of the original post that we are all to blame, we are not. Some people are to blame, many are not and others suffer as a result and so said others have a right to feel disgruntled about being locked down (which was the point of the original post). Me, I have pretty much reached the end of my tether.  I have followed the rules pretty much to the letter, I have not interacted with another human being who is not my wife or my boss as work for 3 months and I am struggling like hell at weekends, no energy, no motivation, no pressure valve to release the stress from the working week and I have done this solidly for 3 months and, to be honest, had limited contact before that. I am actually reaching the stage where i understand why people travel to walk, why people say sod it and have friends round etc because I am losing the plot a bit to be honest (basically work is keeping me sane).


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## IanM (Jan 26, 2021)

Just had email from club asking for volunteers to be course marshals to keep the the crowds off the greens etc..   We've had all sorts of mongy behaviour since lockdown.   Super.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not possible to have tier or lockdown measures on a village basis, my region has been very low throughout but we are rounded up with neighbouring ones that aren't. Of course everyone isn't responsible but enough are when out of lockdown to create the infection and death rates we have been witnessing.
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe we were never going to beat it with the measures taken? ie, Deliveries via road, rail etc moving up and down the Country, International travel corridors open.

Obviously, imo, idiots misbehaving take some responsibility, but without a national lockdown and stop everything (which wasn’t feasible) the virus was still going to spread.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or maybe we were never going to beat it with the measures taken? ie, Deliveries via road, rail etc moving up and down the Country, International travel corridors open.

Obviously, imo, idiots misbehaving take some responsibility, but without a national lockdown and stop everything (which wasn’t feasible) the virus was still going to spread.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that we can't stop every single form of movement but in my opinion we would not be in lockdown now if more people had been responsible with their actions.

Also when I say 'We' I'm talking collectively and not individually.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree that we can't stop every single form of movement but in my opinion we would not be in lockdown now if more people had been responsible with their actions.

Also when I say 'We' I'm talking collectively and not individually.
		
Click to expand...

But, maybe we would be, maybe putting us in the same type of Lockdown in Oct/Nov may of saved thousands of lives, but with shops, business’s and every other thing pushing the envelope we’d of still needed this lockdown.

Last April we were warned the Autumn and Winter ahead were possibly going to be rough.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully accept that, just the wording of the original post that we are all to blame, we are not. Some people are to blame, many are not and others suffer as a result and so said others have a right to feel disgruntled about being locked down (which was the point of the original post). Me, I have pretty much reached the end of my tether.  I have followed the rules pretty much to the letter, I have not interacted with another human being who is not my wife or my boss as work for 3 months and I am struggling like hell at weekends, no energy, no motivation, no pressure valve to release the stress from the working week and I have done this solidly for 3 months and, to be honest, had limited contact before that. I am actually reaching the stage where i understand why people travel to walk, why people say sod it and have friends round etc because I am losing the plot a bit to be honest (basically work is keeping me sane).
		
Click to expand...

But that was my point, if as a society we don't all make a real effort to stop infection rates then we end up as we are now. I assure you I am as bored with all of this as anyone and don't even have a job now to keep me distracted.

For clarification, when I say 'We' I don't mean you or any individual, I'm referring to society as a whole.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			But, maybe we would be, maybe putting us in the same type of Lockdown in Oct/Nov may of saved thousands of lives, but with shops, business’s and every other thing pushing the envelope we’d of still needed this lockdown.

Last April we were warned the Autumn and Winter ahead were possibly going to be rough.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced shops are a major contributor to infection rates.  I believe most of it happens through socialising,  in the home and from schools.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully accept that, just the wording of the original post that we are all to blame, we are not. Some people are to blame, many are not and others suffer as a result and so said others have a right to feel disgruntled about being locked down (which was the point of the original post). Me, I have pretty much reached the end of my tether.  I have followed the rules pretty much to the letter, I have not interacted with another human being who is not my wife or my boss as work for 3 months and I am struggling like hell at weekends, no energy, no motivation, no pressure valve to release the stress from the working week and I have done this solidly for 3 months and, to be honest, had limited contact before that. I am actually reaching the stage where i understand why people travel to walk, why people say sod it and have friends round etc because I am losing the plot a bit to be honest (basically work is keeping me sane).
		
Click to expand...

If it is any consolation you are not alone.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully accept that, just the wording of the original post that we are all to blame, we are not. Some people are to blame, many are not and others suffer as a result and so said others have a right to feel disgruntled about being locked down (which was the point of the original post). Me, I have pretty much reached the end of my tether.  I have followed the rules pretty much to the letter, I have not interacted with another human being who is not my wife or my boss as work for 3 months and I am struggling like hell at weekends, no energy, no motivation, no pressure valve to release the stress from the working week and I have done this solidly for 3 months and, to be honest, had limited contact before that. I am actually reaching the stage where i understand why people travel to walk, why people say sod it and have friends round etc because I am losing the plot a bit to be honest (basically work is keeping me sane).
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you are alone in those feelings and I think we are rapidly reaching the tipping point where even those who have followed the guidelines and 'done their bit' are close to breaking point. Back in March Sage were talking about the need to be careful with restrictions due to fatigue amongst the population and now, almost a year one, we are no better off. I think something will have to give in the coming weeks or month.


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think you are alone in those feelings and I think we are rapidly reaching the tipping point where even those who have followed the guidelines and 'done their bit' are close to breaking point. Back in March Sage were talking about the need to be careful with restrictions due to fatigue amongst the population and now, almost a year one, we are no better off. I think something will have to give in the coming weeks or month.
		
Click to expand...

Very much agree, and I consider myself lucky in that we had a short time in Tier 2. There are areas of the country that have been in Tier 3 or higher restrictions pretty much since last March. Really not surprised that some are deviating from the rules.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 26, 2021)

We just got our vaccination appointment letter, it's 12th February 10am in a local sports centre .


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think you are alone in those feelings and I think we are rapidly reaching the tipping point where even those who have followed the guidelines and 'done their bit' are close to breaking point. Back in March Sage were talking about the need to be careful with restrictions due to fatigue amongst the population and now, almost a year one, we are no better off. I think something will have to give in the coming weeks or month.
		
Click to expand...

What can give though?
IMO we just have to hold on now however difficult, the vaccination program is moving fast the most vunrable should have received a first jab in around three weeks. It would be reckless for people to start giving up now.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What can give though?
IMO we just have to hold on now however difficult, the vaccination program is moving fast the most vunrable should have received a first jab in around three weeks. It would be reckless for people to start giving up now.
		
Click to expand...

I personally think the tipping point will be when we have got to the point where the most vulnerable have all received their jabs. It's at that point where the Government will have to open things up otherwise people will just start doing it on their own. For those of us who are unlikely to see a vaccination until Autumn anyway we might as well get out there and doing things as it's not like we can hide away until that happens. If I happen to catch it in the meantime then so be it but the point of lockdown etc was protecting the NHS and the vulnerable. As soon as those two things are done then they should get on with it. I know SAGE are going to be keen to push things as late as they can however I don't know if the public will stand for that once those who were in danger have what they need.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 26, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We just got our vaccination appointment letter, it's 12th February 10am in a local sports centre .
		
Click to expand...

Good news, still awaiting mine.
My Mrs is 70 today and desperately hoping that she just squeezes in to the over 70 category.
Anyone know what the drop off date is ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354109102545362953
👏👏👍👍


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I personally think the tipping point will be when we have got to the point where the most vulnerable have all received their jabs. It's at that point where the Government will have to open things up otherwise people will just start doing it on their own. For those of us who are unlikely to see a vaccination until Autumn anyway we might as well get out there and doing things as it's not like we can hide away until that happens. If I happen to catch it in the meantime then so be it but the point of lockdown etc was protecting the NHS and the vulnerable. As soon as those two things are done then they should get on with it. I know SAGE are going to be keen to push things as late as they can however I don't know if the public will stand for that once those who were in danger have what they need.
		
Click to expand...

Things just won't return to normal at the end of February. It's going to be a return to tiers again.
If people decide they won't accept the ongoing regulations then it will be a test of State verses the Protesters. I hope it's not going to get to that as there will not be any good outcomes there.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think you are alone in those feelings and I think we are rapidly reaching the tipping point where even those who have followed the guidelines and 'done their bit' are close to breaking point. Back in March Sage were talking about the need to be careful with restrictions due to fatigue amongst the population and now, almost a year one, we are no better off. I think something will have to give in the coming weeks or month.
		
Click to expand...

Come on , fellas. Stop this talk about being so pissed with this that you are thinking of breaking the rules and guidance and joining in the behaviour of the idiots that are spreading it. 
Are you going to throw it all away?  Are you going to crap on all the efforts of those Drs and nurses working themselves to near breaking point - and you think *we *are at breaking point? 
Because you are so angry at the muppets, and frustrated that this bastard virus is messing up our lives?  Sure it is the case, but we are still not in hospital fight in to stay alive are we?  We are nowhere near as badly off as a lot of people.
We are nearly there. The vaccinations are going apace. The figures are going the right way now.
It's not going to help telling each other we are thinking of throwing it all away.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354109102545362953
👏👏👍👍
		
Click to expand...

Still 35,000 in hospital so nothing will change until that figure drops very very significantly. So no matter how much daily cases drop we still weeks behind hospital cases catch up.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Things just won't return to normal at the end of February. It's going to be a return to tiers again.
If people decide they won't accept the ongoing regulations then it will be a test of State verses the Protesters. I hope it's not going to get to that as there will not be any good outcomes there.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not suggesting or expecting normality however I am expecting relaxations to be made and for it not to be done at a snails pace because SAGE demand it. If the 14m or so most vulnerable have been vaccinated and the NHS are not in danger of being overwhelmed then there are no excuses. As I said though, I am also not suggesting that over night we are suddenly unleashed.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on , fellas. Stop this talk about being so pissed with this that you are thinking of breaking the rules and guidance and joining in the behaviour of the idiots that are spreading it.
Are you going to throw it all away?  Are you going to crap on all the efforts of those Drs and nurses working themselves to near breaking point - and you think *we *are at breaking point?
Because you are so angry at the muppets, and frustrated that this bastard virus is messing up our lives?  Sure it is the case, but we are still not in hospital fight in to stay alive are we?  We are nowhere near as badly off as a lot of people.
We are nearly there. The vaccinations are going apace. The figures are going the right way now.
It's not going to help telling each other we are thinking of throwing it all away.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think anyone was suggestion that we were going to start breaking the rules. It was more of a general comment of reaching a point where it was getting harder and harder. We’ve got this far so I’m happy to keep going for the time period that is left however once we’ve reached the point of protecting the vulnerable I would expect a significant amount of relaxations.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 26, 2021)

My poor eldest in isolation still because of contact with a postive test 

Got permission from 111 to break it to take her hospital .. well the wife has

Broke her arm running in the kitchen

Sod going for a drive arguement the home is deadly


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m not suggesting or expecting normality however I am expecting relaxations to be made and for it not to be done at a snails pace because SAGE demand it. If the 14m or so most vulnerable have been vaccinated and the NHS are not in danger of being overwhelmed then there are no excuses. As I said though, I am also not suggesting that over night we are suddenly unleashed.
		
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The Tier system is a relaxation from the Lockdown.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The Tier system is a relaxation from the Lockdown.
		
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Indeed but if we're put back into Tier 3 or 4 so no mixing of other households that's hardly much of a relaxation. Even Tier 2 means you cannot meet members of other households inside and given we're in winter it's hardly an enticing thought to go and stand in someone's garden.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Still 35,000 in hospital so nothing will change until that figure drops very very significantly. So no matter how much daily cases drop we still weeks behind hospital cases catch up.
		
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Or course mate - it’s just showing that the lockdown is working , it’s bringing those cases down and over the next couple of weeks the numbers in hospitals and deaths will follow on from that. 

The worry for me now is the issue with the vaccine and the EU with them potentially blocking exporting it


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Indeed but if we're put back into Tier 3 or 4 so no mixing of other households that's hardly much of a relaxation. Even Tier 2 means you cannot meet members of other households inside and given we're in winter it's hardly an enticing thought to go and stand in someone's garden.
		
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A Tier system will be used to target local infection rates and NHS pressures.  It is a relaxation in regards to shops, sports, travel.  

Do you suggest meeting other households inside be a priority. 

We just need to keep ahead of the curve so that we don't blow it.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My poor eldest in isolation still because of contact with a postive test

Got permission from 111 to break it to take her hospital .. well the wife has

Broke her arm running in the kitchen

Sod going for a drive arguement the home is deadly
		
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Ouch. Poor thing - hope she isn't too sore.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A Tier system will be used to target local infection rates and NHS pressures.  It is a relaxation in regards to shops, sports, travel. 

Do you suggest meeting other households inside be a priority.

We just need to keep ahead of the curve so that we don't blow it.
		
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For me, personally, I don’t really care about shops, sports and travel. I work for myself so don’t have any contact with work colleagues which means I value being able to see friends etc otherwise I could easily get to the point where I don’t see anyone. So for me, yes, meeting other households inside is something of a priorty for me in my own situation. I appreciate that it won’t be the same for everyone, this is just for me.


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## BrianM (Jan 26, 2021)

Another couple of job applications done to try and get into the renewables sector in a Marine capacity, not holding out much hope but trying to stay positive 😀
Cant believe it’s almost 10 months since I’ve been at sea 😳
Big positive has been the time with the kids, they might disagree though 😂😂😂


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## GB72 (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A Tier system will be used to target local infection rates and NHS pressures.  It is a relaxation in regards to shops, sports, travel. 

Do you suggest meeting other households inside be a priority.

We just need to keep ahead of the curve so that we don't blow it.
		
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To me, meeting another household is a priority. I don't want mass gatherings or parties, just to be able to sit with another couple and have a meal and a glass of wine and chat, that is what my mental health needs.


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## BrianM (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For me, personally, I don’t really care about shops, sports and travel. I work for myself so don’t have any contact with work colleagues which means I value being able to see friends etc otherwise I could easily get to the point where I don’t see anyone. So for me, yes, meeting other households inside is something of a priorty for me in my own situation. I appreciate that it won’t be the same for everyone, this is just for me.
		
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Exactly, everyone has their own unique situation but it is just so difficult at the moment for everyone.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A *Tier system will be used to target local infection rates and NHS pressures.*  It is a relaxation in regards to shops, sports, travel.

Do you suggest meeting other households inside be a priority.

*We just need to keep ahead of the curve so that we don't blow it*.
		
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We have been taught to protect the NHS, am positive that going from August when we had 3 deaths one day to the shocking death rates of the last month, I have no confidence in the powers that be, being able to keep pressure off the NHS in the future when it has failed so miserably in the past and present.

When have we ever been ahead of the curve since the start of this Covid ☹️


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			We have been taught to protect the NHS, am positive that going from August when we had 3 deaths one day to the shocking death rates of the last month, I have no confidence in the powers that be, being able to keep pressure off the NHS in the future when it has failed so miserably in the past and present.

When have we ever been ahead of the curve since the start of this Covid ☹️
		
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You don't seem to understand how bad it could be.  There was always going to be a second spike in the winter and you can't start blaming the government for people not following rules to protect us.

If we had been put into a really strict lockdown in September I expect you would have been unhappy about that as well.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			To me, meeting another household is a priority. I don't want mass gatherings or parties, just to be able to sit with another couple and have a meal and a glass of wine and chat, that is what my mental health needs.
		
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Pubs, bars and restaurants play (or st least played) a pretty large roll in my life meeting friends regularly. I already accept that I’m not going to be able to go back to that ‘normal’ and understand why. The next best therefore is to be able to meet them indoors. As GB says, it’s not a mass event, 6 or so having a takeaway with drinks and a chance to speak to someone who isn’t my wife or 6 year old (as much as I love them). 

It will come down to our own personal levels of risk in terms of us catching it but given we’re not getting the vaccine any time soon it something I’m prepared to risk. In theory we’re not spreading to those more vulnerable as they will have been protected by the vaccine themselves.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For me, personally, I don’t really care about shops, sports and travel. I work for myself so don’t have any contact with work colleagues which means I value being able to see friends etc otherwise I could easily get to the point where I don’t see anyone. So for me, yes, meeting other households inside is something of a priorty for me in my own situation. I appreciate that it won’t be the same for everyone, this is just for me.
		
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GB72 said:



			To me, meeting another household is a priority. I don't want mass gatherings or parties, just to be able to sit with another couple and have a meal and a glass of wine and chat, that is what my mental health needs.
		
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What do you think the reprocussions will be if people are allowed to start meeting up Indoors before infection rates and hospital admissions fall to low levels, we are paying the cost now of that happening over Christmas and by those not giving a toss.

I can understand how your personal circumstances are getting to you just like they are for most of us but as I keep saying, it's not worth blowing it now.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Pubs, bars and restaurants play (or st least played) a pretty large roll in my life meeting friends regularly. I already accept that I’m not going to be able to go back to that ‘normal’ and understand why. The next best therefore is to be able to meet them indoors. As GB says, it’s not a mass event, 6 or so having a takeaway with drinks and a chance to speak to someone who isn’t my wife or 6 year old (as much as I love them). 

It will come down to our own personal levels of risk in terms of us catching it but given we’re not getting the vaccine any time soon it something I’m prepared to risk. In theory we’re not spreading to those more vulnerable as they will have been protected by the vaccine themselves.
		
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The vaccine isn't going to protect society to a degree we can go back to pre 2020 ways of living for some time. I would chance a guess things will be somewhat better come the Summer but we will still probably be living under a tier system. Hopefully many areas will be in tier one and two by then.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2021)

Another 12 hour shift, another increase in patients coming to ICU and more people dying. I'm absolutely done in and I'm not even working clinically. You can see the pain and hurt in the eyes of the nurses and doctors and some of our younger and inexperienced nurse are really struggling mentally, physically and capability wise as there is no time for mentoring or tuition


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another 12 hour shift, another increase in patients coming to ICU and more people dying. I'm absolutely done in and I'm not even working clinically. You can see the pain and hurt in the eyes of the nurses and doctors and some of our younger and inexperienced nurse are really struggling mentally, physically and capability wise as there is no time for mentoring or tuition
		
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I feel their pain Homer. These people need all our support and gratitude, you just can't pay them enough.  Take care.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What do you think the reprocussions will be if people are allowed to start meeting up Indoors before infection rates and hospital admissions fall to low levels, we are paying the cost now of that happening over Christmas and by those not giving a toss.

I can understand how your personal circumstances are getting to you just like they are for most of us but as I keep saying, it's not worth blowing it now.
		
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I’m not disagreeing with you and also not suggesting it should happen in the coming days or even weeks. My hope is that mid February the vaccine timetable will have been stuck to them add a 3 or so weeks until the vaccine protection has kicked in. During this time infection rates will have dropped and hopefully hospital admissions with it. So basically my hope is towards the end of March.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I feel their pain Homer. These people need all our support and gratitude, you just can't pay them enough.  Take care.
		
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For the majority though, yes the money could be better but it is a calling to them and ingrained to give the maximum support and care they can. The biggest problem is how quickly people can simply deteriorate even intubated and there is nothing to be done. Yes its the same with a lot of ICU patients and sadly for different reasons many do not make it out alive or if they go to the ward, there is usually no return to the normal baseline even if they get home at all. The Covid cases though has made everyone feel far more helpless and it is that, the PPE and even the lack of families being allowed to be there that make it seem so personal but so isolating in the bed spaces and its that which is taking the toll


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 26, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Another couple of job applications done to try and get into the renewables sector in a Marine capacity, not holding out much hope but trying to stay positive 😀
Cant believe it’s almost 10 months since I’ve been at sea 😳
Big positive has been the time with the kids, they might disagree though 😂😂😂
		
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Who have you applied to? The work in my field seems to be drying up and the jobs that are out there are paying less than I was earning 5 to 6 years ago. I've been home since the middle of October with no work confirmed at the minute. Did get a call today for a couple of months of possible work out in Taiwan in April but nothing sooner than that at the minute.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't seem to understand how bad it could be.  There was always going to be a second spike in the winter and you can't start blaming the government for people not following rules to protect us.

If we had been put into a really strict lockdown in September I expect you would have been unhappy about that as well.
		
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It’s difficult to explain without getting “ political” , but a second tier was always inevitable the way the Covid was being managed. How bad it was going to be was down to what we could and could not do. What I will whole heartedly agree on you with is the way that some people have blatantly broken the rules.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 26, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Another 12 hour shift, another increase in patients coming to ICU and more people dying. I'm absolutely done in and I'm not even working clinically. You can see the pain and hurt in the eyes of the nurses and doctors and some of our younger and inexperienced nurse are really struggling mentally, physically and capability wise as there is no time for mentoring or tuition
		
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BBC news reported from Kings mill hospital today, our local hospital. In the last week there has been 55 Covid deaths in Mansfield and Ashfield. Covid rates are through the roof. I mentioned the other week my thoughts are with the poor sods who are in the trenches dealing with this every day. Thoughts Homer and stay safe me man.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			To me, meeting another household is a priority. I don't want mass gatherings or parties, just to be able to sit with another couple and have a meal and a glass of wine and chat, that is what my mental health needs.
		
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I’m hoping that when we move into Tiers they bring the rule of 6 back in outdoors for the Tiers 1-3 and then something for indoors within your own setting - I don’t expect pubs etc until May maybe Mid April. 

There are so many families that just need to see each other even if it’s just to give a mother or grandchild or sister a cuddle and a cup of tea or cousins to play together - there are struggles for everyone and I know I have said it before but the mental fallout could end up being as dangerous as the virus


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 26, 2021)

Interesting interview with Pascal Soriot, the CEO of AstraZenica supporting the 12 week interval we're using for the vaccinations. Lots of other interesting stuff in there as well if anyone wants a read. 

"*Given the fact that a lot of countries have high hopes on the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine but now there are supply problems, does it makes sense for EU countries to give a second thought to one-dose strategy that the UK is using?*
“I think the UK one-dose strategy is absolutely the right way to go, at least for our vaccine. I cannot comment about the Pfizer vaccine, whose studies are for a three-week interval. In our case, the trial we're talking about was conducted by Oxford University. We AZ are conducting the US trial, which we think is going to be ready very soon. Oxford University conducted the so-called Oxford trial in UK and Brazil, and we have data for patients who received the vaccine in one-month interval, 2 or 3 months interval. First of all, we believe that the efficacy of one dose is sufficient: 100 percent protection against severe disease and hospitalisation, and 71-73 percent of efficacy overall. The second dose is needed for long term protection. But you get a better efficiency if you get the 2nd dose later than earlier. We are going to do a study in the US and globally to use two-month dose interval to confirm that this is indeed the case, there are many reasons to believe it is the case with our vaccine. We have a different technology. First of all, when you look at level of antibody production, this is higher if you give the second dose three months or two months later, than one month later."

https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2...azeneca_coronavirus_covid_vaccines-284349628/


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## SocketRocket (Jan 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			It’s difficult to explain without getting “ political” , but a second tier was always inevitable the way the Covid was being managed. How bad it was going to be was down to what we could and could not do. What I will whole heartedly agree on you with is the way that some people have blatantly broken the rules.
		
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A second spike was always on the cards, winter and a relaxation of lockdown was always going to make that happen, it happens every winter with the Flu.

You are suggesting the problem was with the way Covid was being managed but how would you manage it?


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## Robster59 (Jan 26, 2021)

I'm now measuring my fuel consumption in weeks per gallon rather than miles per gallon.


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## Ethan (Jan 26, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Interesting interview with Pascal Soriot, the CEO of AstraZenica supporting the 12 week interval we're using for the vaccinations. Lots of other interesting stuff in there as well if anyone wants a read.

"*Given the fact that a lot of countries have high hopes on the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine but now there are supply problems, does it makes sense for EU countries to give a second thought to one-dose strategy that the UK is using?*
“I think the UK one-dose strategy is absolutely the right way to go, at least for our vaccine. I cannot comment about the Pfizer vaccine, whose studies are for a three-week interval. In our case, the trial we're talking about was conducted by Oxford University. We AZ are conducting the US trial, which we think is going to be ready very soon. Oxford University conducted the so-called Oxford trial in UK and Brazil, and we have data for patients who received the vaccine in one-month interval, 2 or 3 months interval. First of all, we believe that the efficacy of one dose is sufficient: 100 percent protection against severe disease and hospitalisation, and 71-73 percent of efficacy overall. The second dose is needed for long term protection. But you get a better efficiency if you get the 2nd dose later than earlier. We are going to do a study in the US and globally to use two-month dose interval to confirm that this is indeed the case, there are many reasons to believe it is the case with our vaccine. We have a different technology. First of all, when you look at level of antibody production, this is higher if you give the second dose three months or two months later, than one month later."

https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2...azeneca_coronavirus_covid_vaccines-284349628/

Click to expand...

Soriot is a good salesman. He is making points to several audiences there. One of them is, subtly, an admission that the UK and Brazil trials reported so far were a bit of a dog's dinner but they weren't done by AZ. Few people who have read the paper will disagree. They looked a lot like academic trials. The US trial, done by AZ will be done properly. That is likely also true. 

The assertion that 100% of severe disease and hospitalisations will be stopped by one dose is a big claim. Claiming 100% for anything is usually unwise. I hope he is right. He is wise not to comment on Pfizer's data, but he knows, as most of us do, that the time course of immunity is not different between the different vaccines and the same rules apply to all of them.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 26, 2021)

I’m reading people’s experiences and really starting to feel guilty.
Since returning from 7 months on furlough I have been spending 2 days a week in the office and 3 days a week driving, delivering vehicles nationwide.
Just today I took a car I had overnight back to it’s base in Coventry, picked up another and delivered to Chelmsford, train to Stratford International, Jubilee line to Waterloo, train to Brentford, car from Brentford to Wycombe , train back home to Aylesbury.

I’m getting out and about, ok we take appropriate COVID precautions, but I interact with different people each day. I’m using taxis, trains busses and the tube regularly, but I’m happy to do this as I have confidence in our procedures. I don’t feel that I am playing Russian Roulette with the virus.

My mental health is good, financially good
Ok can’t play golf and can’t go out for a meal, but we are doing really well considering we are in the middle of a global pandemic.

Not sure if my work is essential or not, but our clients keep giving us work, so.....

But I know that little Bro just a couple of miles away is slowly going mad looking at the same 4 walls each day

I’m lucky, extremely lucky to be in this position, but also very conscious that there are many many people really struggling.


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## spongebob59 (Jan 26, 2021)

Two of our friends, a married couple, got a track and trace notification and have both tested positive.
They've been really careful and the only time the went out was to pick up a few items that were missing from their supermarket deliver, so must have picked it up there.

Scary.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't seem to understand how bad it could be.  There was always going to be a second spike in the winter and you can't start blaming the government for people not following rules to protect us.

If we had been put into a really strict lockdown in September I expect you would have been unhappy about that as well.
		
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There was no chance of a September lockdown after we’d been encouraged to go out and eat out in July/August.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A second spike was always on the cards, winter and a relaxation of lockdown was always going to make that happen, it happens every winter with the Flu.

You are suggesting the problem was with the way Covid was being managed but how would you manage it?
		
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I certainly would of had a second lockdown sooner, and I certainly would not of said to the country you have a four day pass, reduced to one day. Bearing in mind it Was already known the Uk variant was knocking about, was more infectious and more deadly. No one is going to even scratch the surface in convincing me that the response to Covid in this country has been well managed. I can think of 100,000 reasons why?


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## Ethan (Jan 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			There was no chance of a September lockdown after we’d been encouraged to go out and eat out in July/August. 

Click to expand...

Yep, eat out to help out was a disastrous policy which has only hurt hospitality venues even more in the long run, and added many cases to the total count.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			There was no chance of a September lockdown after we’d been encouraged to go out and eat out in July/August. 

Click to expand...

October half term would not of been a bad shout as was discussed by some at the time


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## Paperboy (Jan 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yep, eat out to help out was a disastrous policy which has only hurt hospitality venues even more in the long run, and added many cases to the total count.
		
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I disagree a little with this, when I went to the pub for some food felt a lot safer then when I was in a supermarket. Supermarket very little social distancing still at ones I've been too.
Pub set up in defined areas. Table services, one use menus etc


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## chrisd (Jan 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You are suggesting the problem was with the way Covid was being managed but how would you manage it?
		
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Personally I'd manage by the scientific method of "hindsight"  - it's been done before by the media, opposition  politicians and all the clever people 🤔


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			October half term would not of been a bad shout as was discussed by some at the time
		
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That rise in figures had coincided with Uni’s opening up.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Pubs, bars and restaurants play (or st least played) a pretty large roll in my life meeting friends regularly. I already accept that I’m not going to be able to go back to that ‘normal’ and understand why. The next best therefore is to be able to meet them indoors. As GB says, it’s not a mass event, 6 or so having a takeaway with drinks and a chance to speak to someone who isn’t my wife or 6 year old (as much as I love them).

It will come down to our own personal levels of risk in terms of us catching it but given we’re not getting the vaccine any time soon it something I’m prepared to risk. In theory we’re not spreading to those more vulnerable as they will have been protected by the vaccine themselves.
		
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"6 or so having a takeaway" etc? indoors.?  Where the hell do you think it would go from there, if one of you is positive, just on *one *occasion  ? 
( Cos you wouldn't do it only once, would you?)
You, and those that want to behave like that in the near future are going to spread this Covid as bad if not worse than now. 
For Gawds sake, have none of those images from hospitals and deaths meant anything to you? 
Because you want a chat round a meal?.   Jeez!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			"6 or so having a takeaway" etc? indoors.?  Where the hell do you think it would go from there, if one of you is positive, just on *one *occasion  ?
( Cos you wouldn't do it only once, would you?)
You, and those that want to behave like that in the near future are going to spread this Covid as bad if not worse than now.
For Gawds sake, have none of those images from hospitals and deaths meant anything to you?
Because you want a chat round a meal?.   Jeez!
		
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Maybe just take a step back and understand that there are millions in the UK who will catch Covid and be fine , just like many other viruses , at some stage in the future we have to move on , we can’t be locked away for ever - life needs to return for many people who are suffering right now from being locked away - there are millions making the sacrifice but at some stage that will stop and people will mix , the virus will be around for years just like the flu but it will be managed. 

Do you stop seeing people when people die from the flu or indeed any other illnesses?


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## pendodave (Jan 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you stop seeing people when people die from the flu or indeed any other illnesses?
		
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Indeed.
People have been dying of contagious diseases for thousands of years and will carry on doing so after we're all gone. Where did they catch them all from? Fludiviots?
I can't believe we've been allowed out of the house all these years. Irresponsible,  heartless barstuards. Let it never happen again...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2021)

https://www.tes.com/news/primaries-safe-open-soon-say-health-experts?amp&__twitter_impression=true


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1354196420111327233


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			"6 or so having a takeaway" etc? indoors.?  Where the hell do you think it would go from there, if one of you is positive, just on *one *occasion  ?
( Cos you wouldn't do it only once, would you?)
You, and those that want to behave like that in the near future are going to spread this Covid as bad if not worse than now.
For Gawds sake, have none of those images from hospitals and deaths meant anything to you?
Because you want a chat round a meal?.   Jeez!
		
Click to expand...

So what do you expect, until i get the vaccine towards the end of the year that I should not see people? Get a grip. The whole point was to protect the vulnerable and the NHS. Once the vaccinations are done then that is it. I have not said we need to open up in the next week. I have said months but once they are protected I don’t see why we can’t unless you want us hiding inside for the rest of the year?


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## fundy (Jan 26, 2021)

pendodave said:



			Indeed.
People have been dying of contagious diseases for thousands of years and will carry on doing so after we're all gone. Where did they catch them all from? Fludiviots?
I can't believe we've been allowed out of the house all these years. Irresponsible,  heartless barstuards. Let it never happen again...
		
Click to expand...


Fluvidiots 

I think we need a new word of the day thread haha


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe just take a step back and understand that there are millions in the UK who will catch Covid and be fine , just like many other viruses , at some stage in the future we have to move on , we can’t be locked away for ever - life needs to return for many people who are suffering right now from being locked away - there are millions making the sacrifice but at some stage that will stop and people will mix , the virus will be around for years just like the flu but it will be managed.

Do you stop seeing people when people die from the flu or indeed any other illnesses?
		
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Millions who will catch it and be fine?  Sure they will, and there will therefore be millions who will likely pass it on to those that won't be fine.
They'll be buggered up for life or dead. 
As is happening now, if you hadn't noticed.


I'm talking about the situation *as it is now.* The hospitals are overwhelmed
( as per the news and Homers reports) .
I'm not talking about when the R rate is low and most  aged and vulnerable  are vaccinated. Of course it will be around like the flu, and because of vaccination and very low rates, life will be like it is re flu instances.
But people are talking about now, or very soon. That they are suffering mentally to a point that risking hospitalisation and death on others is acceptable because they want to sit and chat with others and risk a spread of it now. 
There are some on here who have and are suffering a lot more than worrying about physically seeing friends for a chat or meal. I feel for them a darn sight more than missing friends. 
It's not as though they aren't in touch , technology now gives that opportunity.
Course it's not the same, but it's better than nothing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So what do you expect, until i get the vaccine towards the end of the year that I should not see people? Get a grip. The whole point was to protect the vulnerable and the NHS. Once the vaccinations are done then that is it. I have not said we need to open up in the next week. I have said months but once they are protected I don’t see why we can’t unless you want us hiding inside for the rest of the year?
		
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You've moved the goalposts. You were supporting those writing about how they are considering now going against the guidance they have been keeping to, because , in so many words,they are coming to the end of their tether at not being able to meet other than their household socially.

Once the vaccinations are done that is it, you say. OF course, that is the whole purpose of the vaccinations. When they are done , for the aged and vulnerable, we will start to get back to normal, and rightly.
But you weren't talking about that scenario earlier


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2021)

pendodave said:



			Indeed.
People have been dying of contagious diseases for thousands of years and will carry on doing so after we're all gone. Where did they catch them all from? Fludiviots?
I can't believe we've been allowed out of the house all these years. Irresponsible,  heartless barstuards. Let it never happen again...
		
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No problem then?


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## road2ruin (Jan 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You've moved the goalposts. You were supporting those writing about how they are considering now going against the guidance they have been keeping to, because , in so many words,they are coming to the end of their tether at not being able to meet other than their household socially.

Once the vaccinations are done that is it, you say. OF course, that is the whole purpose of the vaccinations. When they are done , for the aged and vulnerable, we will start to get back to normal, and rightly.
But you weren't talking about that scenario earlier
		
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I’m sorry but where I have said that I want to get people round now? In my posts I have explained the frustrations I have and how my present situation is however that I also understand we are not suddenly going to be allowed people round in the near future. 

Broadly speaking I have followed all the guidelines since this whole thing kicked off and I will continue to do so. My point was that once the vaccinations are completed for those that the government have deemed most vulnerable I would expect suitable relaxations. IF at that point they aren’t what I would consider enough then yes, that is the point at which I would probably start doing my own thing. Again, I’m being realistic as I don’t expect bars, pubs etc to be open so I’m mainly talking about meeting others.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			I disagree a little with this, when I went to the pub for some food felt a lot safer then when I was in a supermarket. Supermarket very little social distancing still at ones I've been too.
Pub set up in defined areas. Table services, one use menus etc
		
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That was part of the problem. Feeling safe was not necessarily being safe. You are more static in a restaurant for longer than in a supermarket and in the latter people may come closer, but it is usually brief. EOTHO also had an effect that further tightening of restrictions as schools were going back became more politically difficult, so the can was kicked down the line at large human cost.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe just take a step back and understand that there are millions in the UK who will catch Covid and be fine , just like many other viruses , at some stage in the future we have to move on , we can’t be locked away for ever - life needs to return for many people who are suffering right now from being locked away - there are millions making the sacrifice but at some stage that will stop and people will mix , the virus will be around for years just like the flu but it will be managed.

Do you stop seeing people when people die from the flu or indeed any other illnesses?
		
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If you take a further step back, you will see that it is something of a lottery to know if you will be fine or not. Plenty of long Covid and measurable organ damage in young survivors, and few time bombs planted for the future. It is far too early to say that the vast majority came to no harm. 

Covid is not like many of the viruses we have seen, and a comparison with the flu in 2021 is not a reasonable one, most of us have built a cumulative immunity to it over years of exposure and immune system training, and now it doesn't really affect the younger people with strong immune systems. Covid does, and can turn that strong immune system against you. Comparion to the flu in 1919 is the relevant comparison. It is very easy to say glibly that we need to get back to normal and will have to live with it. If we don't deal with it effectively, we won't get back to normal. People who are fed up not going to the pub or miss going to the football need to suck it up, contribute to the strategy to get rid of this thing rather than moan about it and undermine it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If you take a further step back, you will see that it is something of a lottery to know if you will be fine or not. Plenty of long Covid and measurable organ damage in young survivors, and few time bombs planted for the future. It is far too early to say that the vast majority came to no harm.

Covid is not like many of the viruses we have seen, and a comparison with the flu in 2021 is not a reasonable one, most of us have built a cumulative immunity to it over years of exposure and immune system training, and now it doesn't really affect the younger people with strong immune systems. Covid does, and can turn that strong immune system against you. Comparion to the flu in 1919 is the relevant comparison. It is very easy to say glibly that we need to get back to normal and will have to live with it. If we don't deal with it effectively, we won't get back to normal. People who are fed up not going to the pub or miss going to the football need to suck it up, contribute to the strategy to get rid of this thing rather than moan about it and undermine it.
		
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It’s not about people who are fed up about not going to the pub or the football and I’m not sure why you went to that demographic 

There are millions who aren’t seeing family even for a five second cuddle from a mother , a daughter , a grandmother - it’s having those connections with loved ones of all ages , and for a lot of people that’s what keeps them going through life. 

Currently in work we have had more people gone sick from a mental aspect than from Covid - some peoples only interaction with others is in the work place and we have people struggling badly 

I’m worried about what the suicide rates were last year and the increase again this year - I think it’s the biggest cause of death for men under 50 ? 

No one is asking for everything to just be opened up for a big party ASAP , I don’t think anyone is excepting the pubs and clubs etc to open their doors in a couple of weeks 

But for many others they will be desperate for some level of relaxation in a couple of weeks after the 15th Feb just so they can feel some part of their life is back again. There needs to be a balance - 

It’s embarrassing that as a country we appear to be doing many things behind others - 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55820178

I sit there and watch sport in Australia and New Zealand - full crowds , festivals happening , they beat it early by going strict and closing things down fully. What did they do that was so right and yet we appear to be so wrong ?

Was it the “Eat out to help out “ - universities just opening up en mass ? 

What’s has gone so wrong in the UK that we are 12 months down the line appearing to still be at square 1


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## fenwayrich (Jan 27, 2021)

I am in the group of 'clinically extremely vulnerable' due to a drug that I inject for my arthritic condition, causing my immune system to be potentially weakened. It's called Adalimumab. I am waiting for the call to be vaccinated ahead of most people my age (64).

I read yesterday that a trial is taking place to determine whether the  same medicine could be an effective treatment for Covid. I've sometimes thought about stopping my injections, but I haven't had Covid, or even a cold since last March, so I'm carrying on. You never know, the drug might be more useful than the vaccine.


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## Old Skier (Jan 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			Fluvidiots 

I think we need a new word of the day thread haha
		
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Death by flu in our area has been much lower than normal in our area, hopefully people might learn from that.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Ouch. Poor thing - hope she isn't too sore.
		
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Thanks , she is a lot better today ... More herself, already adapting to only having the one arm to use for stuff


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If you take a further step back, you will see that it is something of a lottery to know if you will be fine or not. Plenty of long Covid and measurable organ damage in young survivors, and few time bombs planted for the future. It is far too early to say that the vast majority came to no harm.

Covid is not like many of the viruses we have seen, and a comparison with the flu in 2021 is not a reasonable one, most of us have built a cumulative immunity to it over years of exposure and immune system training, and now it doesn't really affect the younger people with strong immune systems. Covid does, and can turn that strong immune system against you. Comparion to the flu in 1919 is the relevant comparison. It is very easy to say glibly that we need to get back to normal and will have to live with it. If we don't deal with it effectively, we won't get back to normal. People who are fed up not going to the pub or miss going to the football need to suck it up, contribute to the strategy to get rid of this thing rather than moan about it and undermine it.
		
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Both Phil and Road2Ruin have talked about that we have to get going, if not exactly as normal, at some point. If that's not debatable even when the groups who accounts for 90-95% of all deaths from this have been vaccinated, then when is it? 

When 50% of the whole population has been vaccinated? 75%? 100%?


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## Jimaroid (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What’s has gone so wrong in the UK that we are 12 months down the line appearing to still be at square 1
		
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We're not allowed to talk about it.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 27, 2021)

I hate to say it but I think looking backwards to figure out what went wrong is waste of time at this point, all it's doing is creating more noise and anger. The only thing we should concentrate on is the plan between now and normality. I think a great reset is required, to look at the current state of play and only concentrate on the end game from now on. It might mean a bit more pain in the short term but I think some clarity of a brighter future would help rebuild us all.

I also think there is a tidalwave of mental health issues building, I get some pretty awful insights into that through my wife's role in the NHS.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I am in the group of 'clinically extremely vulnerable' due to a drug that I inject for my arthritic condition, causing my immune system to be potentially weakened. It's called Adalimumab. I am waiting for the call to be vaccinated ahead of most people my age (64).

I read yesterday that a trial is taking place to determine whether the  same medicine could be an effective treatment for Covid. I've sometimes thought about stopping my injections, but I haven't had Covid, or even a cold since last March, so I'm carrying on. You never know, the drug might be more useful than the vaccine.
		
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*Don't stop your injections unless your doctor advises you to do so*.

Adalimumab is a powerful biologic medicine in a category known as anti-TNFs, used to treat a range of conditions from RA to Crohn's Disease. Short version is that it may help prevent the inflammatory storm that occurs in some people who get Covid, typically after around 7 days of illness, often when they appear to be getting better, then crash. Some other drugs, such as tocilizumab, also used for similar conditions have recently also been put into trials for the same reason.

If you are flagged for vaccination, being on your medicine creates no problem to taking it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not about people who are fed up about not going to the pub or the football and I’m not sure why you went to that demographic


1
		
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That statement is wrong. See posts 15183, 15215, which started this off.
Those posts and the ones which supported the thoughts expressed were what started this off.
And it is exactly this want of meeting people face to face in indoor situations which is driving this virus. It's the aerosol effect that is spreading it.
You came in inferring that millions will get the virus and have no ill effects, a statement that has an element of truth( ignoring long Covid) , but like all such bald statements there is a valid truth not being acknowledged.
Millions with Covid will pass it to other millions who would not have had it, of whom some would die or be affected for life.
But that's OK, because you want families to cuddle etc.
In the war, children were sent to safety from the blitz, parents didn't know to where for a long time. No phone communication, only , eventually, letters.

Families should be able to be together, yes, and this is what it is about- creating conditions for that to happen *safely,* as soon as the virus and the control of it will let us safely do that.  
Sure, mistakes have been made but the authorities are trying their best. 
None of the harsh measures brought in is what is *wanted*, it is what is *necessary. *
Demanding personal wants is not helping.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Both Phil and Road2Ruin have talked about that we have to get going, if not exactly as normal, *at some poin*t. If that's not debatable even when the groups who accounts for 90-95% of all deaths from this have been vaccinated, then when is it?

When 50% of the whole population has been vaccinated? 75%? 100%?
		
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We all agree "on some point." Course we do. But this started because some wanted this point to be imminent, almost now. They supported that imminent timepoint.
It certainly isn't within a month. But not too far off. Just a bit more patience.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 27, 2021)

Daughter in law, who has been sheilding pretty much from the start due to a compromised immune system, has just found out she won't be vaccinated due to her immune system problems. Unhappy is a massive understatement


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## road2ruin (Jan 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Millions with Covid will pass it to other millions who would not have had it, of whom some would die or be affected for life.
But that's OK, because you want families to cuddle etc.

Demanding personal wants is not helping.
		
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You seem to be paraphrasing and taking comments out of their context to suit your own personal point of view. 

The point that is being made is that the lockdown is to protect the vulnerable and the NHS. That point is (hopefully) being rapidly reached with the vaccine and according to the Governments schedule that will be completed in mid-February. We know we cannot just open up at that point because the vaccine doesn't make you instantaneously immune so we probably have to add 4 weeks or so on top of that to ensure that it's been given the chance to do it's job. Once that point has passed I see no reason for the lockdown to continue and whilst we aren't going back to the old normal you also cannot keep those who aren't at the highest risk kept inside etc. I have also not read anywhere that either myself or similarly opinioned posters have said that we want everything opened now which you seem to be implying. 

As I mentioned earlier, I am going to be towards the back of the queue for the vaccine so I guess I will become more 'at risk' but then that will be down to my own personal risk levels however I am not going to spend the next 9 months not seeing friends indoors just in case I happen to catch the virus. If I did get it and was to get serious ill or even die (speaking as someone who is relatively fit with no known underlying health conditions) then that would be unfortunate but then it would have likely got me at some point anyway and I am prepared to take my chances.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

At the very start of this pandemic, when we were watching the disaster unfolding in Italy, in particular, prominent public health voices and international organisations such as WHO stated very clearly that we needed to decisively deal with this or it would run and run. We didn't and it has. 

It is a disgrace that a year later we have 100k+ plus dead and multiples of that number with complications and chronic disease. The economy is a basket case and I think it is finally dawning on the powers that be that the health vs economy tension is a false one. The two things go hand and hand. They were told this multiple times. 

At the start, it was perfectly possible for the UK to do what it is now contemplating, to essentially close the country. Had they done so, and then only slowly released restrictions, we would have had far fewer cases, and then the task of controlling those cases in the country would be much easier, the pressures on the NHS would be much less and the economy would be in a better state to recover. 

The big question now is whether closing the door after the horse has bolted, done a few laps of the field, had a rest, started up again and taken a large dump in the garden, can possibly work. Is there any point in trying to keep it out when it is already running riot inside? We don't know, except that it will be a lot less effective now. 

On mental health, there is a distinction between people being pissed off and grumpy, we all are, and actually proper psychopathology. My wife is a Consultant Psychiatrist and as I write, is interviewing a patient on Zoom in another room of the house. There is a large body of work which says, in short, that during tough times, war, famine, that sort of thing, mental health issues are less because people are focussed on getting through and a lot of the first world problem stuff gets put into context. The upticks in these issues occurs after the external problems settle. Whether that is because they were welded up and then released, or really only generated afterward is unknown. 

At the start of the pandemic, my wife noted that a lot of her personality disordered patients, typically very hard to treat and the cause of many problems for the mental health teams, were rather quiet. These people tend to wax and wane with rises and dips in the pandemic. In terms of what she would call hard pathology, there is still a bunch of people with schizophrenia and other mental health disorders who need treated and managed, but no signs that these numbers are increasing. There have been reports of increased numbers of suicides at points during the pandemic, although the interpretation of that is disputed, but there does not appear to be any evidence of widespread mental health problems (of the sort that need medical intervention) in the wider community. There are loads of people on social media complaining about there mental health, but that sometimes seems to be a sort of ennui or unsettledness, and in my opinion is likely not a lasting mental health issue.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			We all agree "on some point." Course we do. But this started because some wanted this point to be imminent, almost now. They supported that imminent timepoint.
It certainly isn't within a month. But not too far off. Just a bit more patience.
		
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No, you've read his post like the devil reads the bible. 



road2ruin said:



			I’m not disagreeing with you and also *not suggesting it should happen in the coming days or even weeks*. My hope is that mid February the vaccine timetable will have been stuck to them add a 3 or so weeks until the vaccine protection has kicked in. During this time infection rates will have dropped and hopefully hospital admissions with it. So basically *my hope is towards the end of March*.
		
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road2ruin said:



			I’m *not suggesting or expecting normality* however *I am expecting relaxations* to be made and for it not to be done at a snails pace because SAGE demand it. *If the 14m or so most vulnerable have been vaccinated and the NHS are not in danger of being overwhelmed then there are no excuses*. As I said though, *I am also not suggesting that over night we are suddenly unleashed*.
		
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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Both Phil and Road2Ruin have talked about that we have to get going, if not exactly as normal, at some point. If that's not debatable even when the groups who accounts for 90-95% of all deaths from this have been vaccinated, then when is it?

When 50% of the whole population has been vaccinated? 75%? 100%?
		
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Depends what you mean by 'get going'. And for the umpteenth, but probably not last, time, IT. ISN'T. ONLY. ABOUT. DEATHS.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			No, you've read his post like the devil reads the bible.
		
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 No , you've read my post wrongly. In the bit of mine you've quoted, you should have noted that I said *some.*
And I have numbered the post that started this aspect of the debate. RtR supported that post and talked in his about "a month"
As the posts went on he talks more in general terms describing a time in the future , further forward, more akin to what I support. Of course, restrictions should be lifted as vaccinations take effect and numbers fall greatly. That will happen, but not in a month .


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2021)

Arbitrary dates like the middle of February or when over 70s have been vaccinated for people to start socialising again is not sensible.  The time for this to happen is when infections and deaths fall to acceptable levels.

It is true that many people are suffering mental health issues and there will be associated suisides but that can't be a reason to ease up on Covid.  Most of us are missing contact with friends and family but realise it's something we just have to accept and put up with however difficult untill the time is right.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No , you've read my post wrongly. In the bit of mine you've quoted, you should have noted that I said *some.*
And I have numbered the post that started this aspect of the debate. RtR supported that post and talked in his about "a month"
As the posts went on he talks more in general terms describing a time in the future , further forward, more akin to what I support. Of course, restrictions should be lifted as vaccinations take effect and numbers fall greatly. That will happen, but not in a month .
		
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I believe that some level of relaxation will happen from February Half term - schools mainly primary schools will open up from the first week in March amongst other businesses and potentially outdoor sports like golf and tennis clubs. 

The indoor stuff - gyms , pubs etc. won’t be until after Easter 

And we will be in some level of Tier system from the end of Feb/beginning of March. 

All depending on if the vaccine levels continue as they are , the number of cases continue as they are and the hospital admissions reduce as they expect. 

Whether or not that’s the right thing to do I’m not sure but that’s what I see happening - there will be some level of reducing the lockdown after half term.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Daughter in law, who has been sheilding pretty much from the start due to a compromised immune system, has just found out she won't be vaccinated due to her immune system problems. Unhappy is a massive understatement 

Click to expand...

Really? Who decided that, her GP? She needs the vax more than most, and it does not pose a risk to those with impaired immune systems. The only contraindications to the Pfizer are allergy to specific components of the vaccine. It is noted in the Information for Healthcare Professionals that:

_Immunocompromised persons, including individuals receiving immunosuppressant therapy, may have a diminished immune response to the vaccine. No data are available about concomitant use of immunosuppressants._

That is not stated as a reason not to give, though.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Depends what you mean by 'get going'. And for the umpteenth, but probably not last, time, IT. ISN'T. ONLY. ABOUT. DEATHS.
		
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You keep banging on about that, so let me reply - I. KNOW. THAT. IT'S. NOT. ALL. ABOUT. THE. DEATHS. 

Deaths and hospital admissions seem to correlate somewhat in regards to the age groups as already stated, accounts for 95% of all deaths. So, when the vaccination of these groups have been completed, an extra 3-4 weeks to let the vaccine work it's magic, hospital admissions should see a decrease, and we could look at relaxation. Would you agree? 

If not, at what point would you suggest that any relaxations are done?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			You keep banging on about that, so let me reply - I. KNOW. THAT. IT'S. NOT. ALL. ABOUT. THE. DEATHS. 

Deaths and hospital admissions seem to correlate somewhat in regards to the age groups as already stated, accounts for 95% of all deaths. So, when the vaccination of these groups have been completed, an extra 3-4 weeks to let the vaccine work it's magic, hospital admissions should see a decrease, and we could look at relaxation. Would you agree? 

If not, at what point would you suggest that any relaxations are done? 

View attachment 34717

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Should and Could are not definites, death and infection rates are.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			You keep banging on about that, so let me reply - I. KNOW. THAT. IT'S. NOT. ALL. ABOUT. THE. DEATHS.

Deaths and hospital admissions seem to correlate somewhat in regards to the age groups as already stated, accounts for 95% of all deaths. So, when the vaccination of these groups have been completed, an extra 3-4 weeks to let the vaccine work it's magic, hospital admissions should see a decrease, and we could look at relaxation. Would you agree?

If not, at what point would you suggest that any relaxations are done?

View attachment 34717

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You will have to forgive me. Your previous statement mentioned only deaths, and an obsession with death rates only is a thing amongst those who are desperate to remove lockdown measures asap.

I would certainly agree that vaccination of the higher risk groups will cut both hospital admissions and deaths. I would guess that we will start to see an effect soon, although it is difficult to assign what proportion of that will be due to vax and what to lockdown restrictions. It seems clear that the Govt sees the point at which they can declare that all the over 70s plus CEVs are vacc'd (plus at least 2 weeks) as a key milestone, followed by over 50s and other less serious at risks. These milestones are risky, though as any statement which sounds too positive runs the risk of lots of people abandoning social distancing and all the rest.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			At the start of the pandemic, my wife noted that a lot of her personality disordered patients, typically very hard to treat and the cause of many problems for the mental health teams, were rather quiet. These people tend to wax and wane with rises and dips in the pandemic. In terms of what she would call hard pathology, there is still a bunch of people with schizophrenia and other mental health disorders who need treated and managed, but no signs that these numbers are increasing. There have been reports of increased numbers of suicides at points during the pandemic, although the interpretation of that is disputed, but there does not appear to be any evidence of widespread mental health problems (of the sort that need medical intervention) in the wider community. There are loads of people on social media complaining about there mental health, but that sometimes seems to be a sort of ennui or unsettledness, and in my opinion is likely not a lasting mental health issue.
		
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My wife's in CAMHS and seeing the softer mental health issues, especially amongst younger and deprived families are increasing in number and severity. Obivously I don't know or see the data so can't confirm or say why, but may be able to speculate that the catchment area includes some very deprived areas that appear to be getting hit harder due to socio-economic aspects of lockdown.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			My wife's in CAMHS and seeing the softer mental health issues, especially amongst younger and deprived families are increasing in number and severity. Obivously I don't know or see the data so can't confirm or say why, but may be able to speculate that the catchment area includes some very deprived areas that appear to be getting hit harder due to socio-economic aspects of lockdown.
		
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Possibly, and CAMHS is an aspect which sees a range of issues reflected around families, sometimes parental issues expressed through the kids. I have no doubt there is an increase in softer stuff, but my point was that some of that stuff does not translate into actual "hard" psychopathology, admissions, suicides and so on. Almost every family is seeing more tension, frustration and stress, but much of that will evaporate as lockdown restrictions are lifted and will cause few lasting problems. I agree that more deprived households have less resource to assist with it all.


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## bobmac (Jan 27, 2021)

It seems to me that once the people who are most at risk have been vaccinated, (plus 2 weeks), then everyone including those who are less at risk can expect a relaxation in the restrictions.
I appears the argument is when that will happen.
As no-one has a time machine, we're all guessing but my 'better safe than sorry' guesstimate would be April, as long as the numbers keep reducing.

It's going to be a good summer if we can all hold on for a bit longer.
If you can't stay in, stay safe everyone


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Should and Could are not definites, death and infection rates are.
		
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If you cannot read my post and understand that those would be requisites for a relaxation even for me. Well, there's nothing I can do about that. I think you actually do understand that, but you just want to keep going for the sake of it.



Ethan said:



			You wil have to forgive me. Your previous statement mentioned only deaths, and an obsession with death rates only is a thing amongst those who are desperate to remove lockdown measures asap.

I would certainly agree that vaccination of the higher risk groups will cut both hospital admissions and deaths. I would guess that we will start to see an effect soon, although it is difficult to assign what proportion of that will be due to vax and what to lockdown restrictions. It seems clear that the Govt sees the point at which they can declare that all the over 70s plus CEVs are vacc'd (plus at least 2 weeks) as a key milestone, followed by over 50s and other less serious at risks. These milestones are risky, though as any statement which sounds too positive runs the risk of lots of people abandoning social distancing and all the rest.
		
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I could've been clearer, but to me I've always seen them as highly intertwined. My bad.


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## hovis (Jan 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			As no-one has a time machine, we're all guessing but my 'better safe than sorry' guesstimate would be April, as long as the numbers keep reducing.

 everyone
		
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I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is no way on God's earth the government are going to keep us locked up until April.  Even though the government have specifically said they don't know when lockdown will end the majority of people hitched their star to mid late February.    Purely a guess but I'm going with some schools back after the break and lockdown ends a week later releasing us into teirs


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## bobmac (Jan 27, 2021)

hovis said:



			Purely a guess but I'm going with some schools back after the break and lockdown ends a week later releasing us into teirs
		
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Let's hope so for everyone's benefit.


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## Jimaroid (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Possibly, and CAMHS is an aspect which sees a range of issues reflected around families, sometimes parental issues expressed through the kids. I have no doubt there is an increase in softer stuff, but my point was that some of that stuff does not translate into actual "hard" psychopathology, admissions, suicides and so on. Almost every family is seeing more tension, frustration and stress, but much of that will evaporate as lockdown restrictions are lifted and will cause few lasting problems.
		
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No disagreement on the mental health aspect here. I do have a different view on whether they will evaporate as lockdown restrictions are lifted, I think it's just going to be differently bad due to the economic and political aftermath of the last year. I hope I'm wrong. I do believe we can lessen the future impact with some type of grand plan to rebuild in unity instead of looking backwards for blame but perhaps I'm just too optimistic on that one.


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## User62651 (Jan 27, 2021)

Echoing some other thougths here but wrt easing out of lockdown we messed up, now we have to pay - that means waiting months and months longer than other places to unlock until the whole vaccination program has completed imo. If we dont and open up again it's just thousands more unnescessary and avoidable deaths, which is borderline criminal to permit. Yes that creates no end of other problems but staying alive is more important, no matter peoples age. That's the price we have to pay (whilst waiting for vaccinations) for a combo of bad strategic decisions and a proportionately selfish exceptionalist populace. 
Radio saying just now PM is going to outline another path out of lockdown this week, haven't we been here several times before? 
Just wait for all the vaccinations, not sooner or it'll backfire....again.
Reducing restrictions to benefit economy argument is flawed, other countries showed early stringent control of virus works best for economic outcomes.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			No disagreement on the mental health aspect here. I do have a different view on whether they will evaporate as lockdown restrictions are lifted, I think it's just going to be differently bad due to the economic and political aftermath of the last year. I hope I'm wrong. I do believe we can lessen the future impact with some type of grand plan to rebuild in unity instead of looking backwards for blame but perhaps I'm just too optimistic on that one.
		
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Well, there is, and will be, some genuine pathology in the population. But I get a bit pissed off at people complaining that because little Tarquin can't go to his karate lessons, it is damaging his mental health. No, it really isn't. There was some over entitled social media bimbo in the media today defending her decision to go to Dubai just before lockdown, for her mental health. She needs a kick up the arse, not demanding pandering attention from other people who will now be thinking "But what about my mental health, babes?" and getting reinforcement from others who also think they are missing out.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, there is, and will be, some genuine pathology in the population. But I get a bit pissed off at people complaining that because little Tarquin can't go to his karate lessons, it is damaging his mental health. No, it really isn't. There was some over entitled social media bimbo in the media today defending her decision to go to Dubai just before lockdown, for her mental health. She needs a kick up the arse, not demanding pandering attention from other people who will now be thinking "But what about my mental health, babes?" and getting reinforcement from others who also think they are missing out.
		
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Absolutely spot on, it’s almost like “mental health” is the latest fashion/buzz word for people to use as an excuse and imo, it lessens the impact for those in genuine need of help and who are struggling.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

hovis said:



			I'm going to stick my neck out and say there is no way on God's earth the government are going to keep us locked up until April.  Even though the government have specifically said they don't know when lockdown will end the majority of people hitched their star to mid late February.    Purely a guess but I'm going with some schools back after the break and lockdown ends a week later releasing us into teirs
		
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I think that is optimistic/ambitious, and schools will not open right after half term. Perhaps in some areas, but should be pinned to clear and notable drops in cases and deaths. 

The last thing anybody needs is yet another false dawn leading to further and longer restrictions down the line.


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, there is, and will be, some genuine pathology in the population. But I get a bit pissed off at people complaining that because little Tarquin can't go to his karate lessons, it is damaging his mental health. No, it really isn't. There was some over entitled social media bimbo in the media today defending her decision to go to Dubai just before lockdown, for her mental health. She needs a kick up the arse, not demanding pandering attention from other people who will now be thinking "But what about my mental health, babes?" and getting reinforcement from others who also think they are missing out.
		
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No disagreement with what you say and I will admit that I have no idea as to what I am going through at the moment (child of the 70s so part of the don't talk about it' keep it all in until you have a breakdown generation) and I am probably guilty of brandishing the mental health card too easily due to a lack of real understanding. What I do know is that I am tired, unmotivated, quiet, maybe slightly withdrawn and sometimes randomly sad to a point of nearly being in tears. That is just not me. Don't get me wrong (and not to panic anyone on here) I am not suicidal and I would probably limit the impact at the moment to me be sometimes unpleasant to be around (couple of hours locked away with my xbox helps that) and me just generally not liking who I am at the moment. 

I am a sensible, educated bloke. Lockdown has not hit me financially too much and I am honestly surprised at the impact that the lack of social interaction is having on me. What would help me, an hour at the weekend, sat in the garden (in a big warm coat) having a coffee and a chat with one other person, socially distanced. Basically something on the same risk level as a round of golf which, apparently, should be allowed.


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## Beezerk (Jan 27, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Absolutely spot on, it’s almost like “mental health” is the latest fashion/buzz word for people to use as an excuse and imo, it lessens the impact for those in genuine need of help and who are struggling.
		
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Bang on, there will be people genuinely struggling, of course there is, but the amount of people now throwing about the mental health line makes my pash boil.
I've had to stop listening to Radio 5 on a morning, it seems to attract a whole new generation of weak willed people, what ever happened to being resilient?


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			No disagreement with what you say and I will admit that I have no idea as to what I am going through at the moment (child of the 70s so part of the don't talk about it' keep it all in until you have a breakdown generation) and I am probably guilty of brandishing the mental health card too easily due to a lack of real understanding. *What I do know is that I am tired, unmotivated, quiet, maybe slightly withdrawn and sometimes randomly sad to a point of nearly being in tears. That is just not me. *Don't get me wrong (and not to panic anyone on here) I am not suicidal and I would probably limit the impact at the moment to me be sometimes unpleasant to be around (couple of hours locked away with my xbox helps that) and me just generally not liking who I am at the moment.

I am a sensible, educated bloke. Lockdown has not hit me financially too much and I am honestly surprised at the impact that the lack of social interaction is having on me. What would help me, an hour at the weekend, sat in the garden (in a big warm coat) having a coffee and a chat with one other person, socially distanced. Basically something on the same risk level as a round of golf which, apparently, should be allowed.
		
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Sure, I agree and sometimes feel the same. Other people have their own responses. But for many people these are acute stressors and when the situation changes not even necessarily getting back as far as full "normality", they will go away, at varying speeds.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Echoing some other thougths here but wrt easing out of lockdown we messed up, now we have to pay - *that means waiting months and months longer than other places to unlock until the whole vaccination program has completed imo. *If we dont and open up again it's just thousands more unnescessary and avoidable deaths, which is borderline criminal to permit. Yes that creates no end of other problems but staying alive is more important, no matter peoples age. That's the price we have to pay (whilst waiting for vaccinations) for a combo of bad strategic decisions and a proportionately selfish exceptionalist populace.
Radio saying just now PM is going to outline another path out of lockdown this week, haven't we been here several times before? 
Just wait for all the vaccinations, not sooner or it'll backfire....again.
Reducing restrictions to benefit economy argument is flawed, other countries showed early stringent control of virus works best for economic outcomes.
		
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The whole vaccination program won’t be completed until October ? 

Do you really see a 9 month lockdown - the results of that would be far damaging than any virus


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Sure, I agree and sometimes feel the same. Other people have their own responses. But for many people these are acute stressors and when the situation changes not even necessarily getting back as far as full "normality", they will go away, at varying speeds.
		
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I think there is a generational hurdle that needs clearing here. I am in full agreement with your comments earlier on this topic but there are generations that are having to face up to issues regarding mental health, me included, and we have no idea what to do or what is going on. We never talked about things, when these generations were growing up you generally ignored things or hid inside a bottle (saw too much of both of those when I was younger). For some to feel that their concerns are being dismissed, as I have felt on here at times (not anyone in particular) brings a trigger reaction to go back to the old 'man up' ways that you are used to. Many are not waving the mental health card so much as using the term, and this sums me up I guess, because they have absolutely no idea what to call what they are feeling and have no idea what is wrong.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, there is, and will be, some genuine pathology in the population. But I get a bit pissed off at people complaining that because little Tarquin can't go to his karate lessons, it is damaging his mental health. No, it really isn't. There was some over entitled social media bimbo in the media today defending her decision to go to Dubai just before lockdown, for her mental health. She needs a kick up the arse, not demanding pandering attention from other people who will now be thinking "But what about my mental health, babes?" and getting reinforcement from others who also think they are missing out.
		
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Fully agree in regards what you are saying about the demands from certain areas of society - nothing more annoying than these so called “influencers” ( whatever the hell that is ) flying to the Middle East and then crying about missing their family etc 

That doesn’t help the people that are really struggling - my wife for example is very close to her mum and sister and last year she really struggled with it , she tried to work hard and locked herself into her work and it was very hard just to get her out of the house for a walk- it came to a head and she let it all out which helped and this time she is coping better- but she had myself and our daughter as support - there are many out there that won’t have that support and right now suffering in silence coping with what’s going on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Bang on, there will be people genuinely struggling, of course there is, but the amount of people now throwing about the mental health line makes my pash boil.
I've had to stop listening to Radio 5 on a morning, it seems to attract a whole new generation of weak willed people,* what ever happened to being resilient?*

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That’s just a step up from the old “Man up”

Maybe some people are now being brave enough to open up about their struggles - ones person irrelevance could be the next persons real struggle and we should be careful when judging peoples resilience- we are all different


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## Beezerk (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s just a step up from the old “Man up”

Maybe some people are now being brave enough to open up about their struggles - ones person irrelevance could be the next persons real struggle and we should be careful when judging peoples resilience- we are all different
		
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Oh please spare me your faux outrage, you know what I mean.
When a woman phones a national radio station and says she's worried about her sons mental health as he's playing his xbox all day, that isn't being brave and opening up, it's as Paul says, jumping on the new fashionable catch phrase.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s just a step up from the old “Man up”

Maybe some people are now being brave enough to open up about their struggles - ones person irrelevance could be the next persons real struggle and we should be careful when judging peoples resilience- we are all different
		
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This is a tricky area. There is a spectrum ranging from people who are unaffected by the lockdown limitations to people who are isolated and desperate. Nobody, including me, is saying that the latter are not having a very tough time and suffering, but the aspect that annoys me and I am pointing to is the people in the middle who should be able to rely on their own resources, but who are being led to believe by others that it is just not normal to quietly cope with the boredom and frustration, and either 'Something Must Be Done' or they must tell the world about their feelings. That sort of thing is transmissible and causes others to do the same and all of that noise just gums up the provision of services to those who actually need them.


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## stefanovic (Jan 27, 2021)

Being in two at-risk groups I had the Pfizer jab a couple of weeks ago and was told my second one would be in 21 days. This seems far less likely now. 
First dose is supposed to give 52% protection rising to 95% with second dose.
Only side effect so far was a sore arm overnight, but second might lead to chills and pains, so will keep Paracetamol on hand.  

Would like to predict what happens next with Covid-19 but as someone once said, prediction is very difficult especially when it comes to the future.


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is a tricky area. There is a spectrum ranging from people who are unaffected by the lockdown limitations to people who are isolated and desperate. Nobody, including me, is saying that the latter are not having a very tough time and suffering, but the aspect that annoys me and I am pointing to is the people in the middle who should be able to rely on their own resources, but who are being led to believe by others that it is just not normal to quietly cope with the boredom and frustration, and either 'Something Must Be Done' or they must tell the world about their feelings. That sort of thing is transmissible and causes others to do the same and all of that noise just gums up the provision of services to those who actually need them.
		
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I agree with pretty much everything in that. What would help me is the language to be able to express how I am feeling (and to understand myself how I am feeling) without pressing the panic button. Another wonderful trait built into men in the 70s was there are pretty much 2 states in life, fine or at deaths door. That worked for pretty much everything, physical health, mental health, the full range. I think what many of us need is an understanding that what we are feeling is normal. How have I done that in the past, chatted to mates over a beer, found out that they and others have been through the same etc. I think for the older generations, they need to be encouraged to speak up as to not do so would see them revert to type whereas those who are simply waving the card to receive benefit or attention need to be shut down rather than encouraged (as the media, social and normal, is doing at the moment).

Believe it or not, just typing out what I have this morning has proved somewhat cathartic.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is a tricky area. There is a spectrum ranging from people who are unaffected by the lockdown limitations to people who are isolated and desperate. Nobody, including me, is saying that the latter are not having a very tough time and suffering, but the aspect that annoys me and I am pointing to is the people in the middle who should be able to rely on their own resources, but who are being led to believe by others that it is just not normal to quietly cope with the boredom and frustration, and either 'Something Must Be Done' or they must tell the world about their feelings. That sort of thing is transmissible and causes others to do the same and all of that noise just gums up the provision of services to those who actually need them.
		
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I agree - and the key phrase is your first 5 words - it is very tricky area and that’s why 99% is best not to judge and allow the professionals like your wife and Jim’s to make those expirence judgements of people.

How people cope with the world is ever changing - many of us are indeed 60/70’s children where if we did have issues with suffered with them in silence and tried to ignore them - society in that respect is hugely changing and the stigma is slowly evaporating that used to be assign to mental health - there will always be the very small minority who leap onto it but it is a very small minority ( even if that’s the loud one and the one that gets highlighted by media ). It’s a minefield and my own issues over the past 40 years opened my eyes a lot hence I was able to recognise the signs with my loved ones

What does give me encouragement is the way that Greg is speaking and opening up and the reaction people get on here - it’s very refreshing and in some way I hope it helps people like Greg


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## User62651 (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The whole vaccination program won’t be completed until October ?

Do you really see a 9 month lockdown - the results of that would be far damaging than any virus
		
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What's more damaging than being dead? 
Lockdown easing doesn't work here because track and trace doesn't work here. You have to have the tools in place and compliance - we have neither. People ignore it because to too many me is more important than we in our society.
Better locking down for 9 months than another cycle like we've just gone through. 
The British public cannot be trusted to use common sense, that's for sure.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I agree - and the key phrase is your first 5 words - it is very tricky area and that’s why 99% is best not to judge and allow the professionals like your wife and Jim’s to make those expirence judgements of people.

How people cope with the world is ever changing - many of us are indeed 60/70’s children where if we did have issues with suffered with them in silence and tried to ignore them - society in that respect is hugely changing and the stigma is slowly evaporating that used to be assign to mental health - there will always be the very small minority who leap onto it but it is a very small minority ( even if that’s the loud one and the one that gets highlighted by media ). It’s a minefield and my own issues over the past 40 years opened my eyes a lot hence I was able to recognise the signs with my loved ones

What does give me encouragement is the way that Greg is speaking and opening up and the reaction people get on here - it’s very refreshing and in some way I hope it helps people like Greg
		
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I think the greater one's expertise, the further along the line of 'is it normal for lockdown?' you can reliably comment. I have done some psychiatry myself, and seen some of these general pictures, they aren't unique to Covid, but part of the human condition. There has always been a group of people who are essentially well but obsessed with external events and the need to seek help. These people used to be called 'neurotic'. I think there are others who are attention seekers, traditionally for ego reasons, now a small but annoying subset because it supports there social media brand. That social media influencer who headed off to Dubai from which she posts Instagram pictures does not have mental health issues beyond some annoying personality traits. I grew up in NI and during the late 70s and early 80s, it was normal to spend long periods very near one's own home and in relative isolation. That was in the days of 3 TV channels, no local cinema, no theme parks and sod all else to do for any people. It may be no coincidence that the school of 'Catch yerself on' psychiatry was strong there. 

Once all this settles back to some form of normality we will see what we are left with. My suspicion is that most people will be fine.


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## road2ruin (Jan 27, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Better locking down for 9 months than another cycle like we've just gone through.
		
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Not with standing that a 9 month lockdown simply wouldn't be possible there wouldn't be anything left of the country when we were out of lockdown. Remember there are millions out there who have had no Government support at all during this despite Rishi telling everyone that 'no one will be left behind' then there's the lower paid who cannot afford not to work so they'd still be out. 

In a fantasy world where there was a 9 month hard lockdown it would only be feasible on a financial front if all bills were frozen for that period and everyone was paid a 'wage' to ensure they could provide food for themselves.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 27, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			What's more damaging than being dead?
Lockdown easing doesn't work here because track and trace doesn't work here. You have to have the tools in place and compliance - we have neither. People ignore it because to too many me is more important than we in our society.
Better locking down for 9 months than another cycle like we've just gone through.
The British public cannot be trusted to use common sense, that's for sure.
		
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Locking down for 9 months, when you've vaccinated the absolute vast majority of people who die (and are being hospitalised...) from this disease in the first 2-3 months? 

Now that isn't much of common sense, that's for sure.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Not with standing that a 9 month lockdown simply wouldn't be possible there wouldn't be anything left of the country when we were out of lockdown. Remember there are millions out there who have had no Government support at all during this despite Rishi telling everyone that 'no one will be left behind' then there's the lower paid who cannot afford not to work so they'd still be out. 

In a fantasy world where there was a 9 month hard lockdown it would only be feasible on a financial front if all bills were frozen for that period and everyone was paid a 'wage' to ensure they could provide food for themselves.
		
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There's no guarantee in this life that all will be honky-dorey, go back a few generations and most people were hard up when we had to pay the price for the war.  One way or another we have to recover from this virus and face the consequences of it.  Looks like we may have to go through something similar again.


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## road2ruin (Jan 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			There's no guarantee in this life that all will be honky-dorey, go back a few generations and most people were hard up when we had to pay the price for the war.  One way or another we have to recover from this virus and face the consequences of it.  Looks like we may have to go through something similar again.
		
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I think the difference was the collective pull in the same direction and most were in the same boat. In this some have had a pretty easy ride on a financial front whilst others have watched their businesses, savings etc all disappear. We've got around 5% of the working population who are in this situation through no fault of their own yet 'no one has been left behind'. You then have people questioning why some aren't sticking to lockdown or no isolating. In a lot of cases they cannot afford to.


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## fundy (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe that some level of relaxation will happen from February Half term - *schools mainly primary schools will open up from the first week in March* amongst other businesses and potentially outdoor sports like golf and tennis clubs.

The indoor stuff - gyms , pubs etc. won’t be until after Easter

And we will be in some level of Tier system from the end of Feb/beginning of March.

All depending on if the vaccine levels continue as they are , the number of cases continue as they are and the hospital admissions reduce as they expect.

Whether or not that’s the right thing to do I’m not sure but that’s what I see happening - there will be some level of reducing the lockdown after half term.
		
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Sounds like theyre aiming to open up schools on March the 8th if safe to do so


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

No announcement on lockdown plans until 22nd February so at least March before any change.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think the difference was the collective pull in the same direction and most were in the same boat. In this some have had a pretty easy ride on a financial front whilst others have watched their businesses, savings etc all disappear. We've got around 5% of the working population who are in this situation through no fault of their own yet 'no one has been left behind'. You then have people questioning why some aren't sticking to lockdown or no isolating. In a lot of cases they cannot afford to.
		
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Regarding social equality it's never been any different, there have always been social/economic divides.  The big difference these days is the belief of an entitlement to a nice standard of living. That bubble is about to burst and the reality of a bust economy will emerge.  Muck happens and we just as well do whatever is needed to get us properly out of this mess rather than give in to the unrealistic short term demands to get us back to the pub or dinner party.

As I have said previously, the deciding factor on when we can get back to opening up schools, shops, bars etc should be when it's safe to do so and not when its convenient.


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## road2ruin (Jan 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The big difference these days is the belief of an entitlement to a nice standard of living.
		
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I think you have every right to feel aggrieved when you have worked for years to build up a business of your own to give yourself a nice standard of living only to see it taken away from you through no fault of your own. To add insult you get nothing in the way of support whilst you watch people sit at home on almost full income for a year or take advantage of cash grants.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2021)

I don’t believe for one minute we should ignore mental health and the damage it does to the individual and those around them, but because someone is bored or believes their civil rights are being denied they decide to self disgnose, sorry, spare me!

No one is having it easy at the moment, thousands upon thousands are struggling with real demons, those somewhere in the between should share their feelings and nobody should deny them that right, just don’t expect everyone to agree or understand.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			Sounds like theyre aiming to open up schools on March the 8th if safe to do so
		
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I think that’s what a lot expected - he said that schools etc would get prior notice of what happens next 

So on 22nd that gives two weeks for schools and businesses to get themselves ready

Potentially golf clubs as well - and within some sort of Tier system no doubt.


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think that’s what a lot expected - he said that schools etc would get prior notice of what happens next

So on 22nd that gives two weeks for schools and businesses to get themselves ready

Potentially golf clubs as well - and within some sort of Tier system no doubt.
		
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Sadly I think that you may be jumping the gun. I suspect that schools are all that will open on 8th March.


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## Imurg (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Sadly I think that you may be jumping the gun. I suspect that schools are all that will open on 8th March.
		
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Since the beginning of this lockdown they've said it will be a very slow easing...we've got a chance but don't hold your breath.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Sadly I think that you may be jumping the gun. I suspect that schools are all that will open on 8th March.
		
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I can’t see how they can open schools up but yet keep outdoor sports like Tennis clubs etc closed - or indeed any other businesses that have shown to be able to work within Covid guidelines.

Schools , Universities and Pubs etc are areas that they have always seen as the biggest issues.


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can’t see how they can open schools up but yet keep outdoor sports like Tennis clubs etc closed - or indeed any other businesses that have shown to be able to work within Covid guidelines.

Schools , Universities and Pubs etc are areas that they have always seen as the biggest issues.
		
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Because schools are seen as the priority to the detriment of all else. Not saying it was the sole cause but numbers shot up last time when schools and universities went back. I suspect schools will be opened in isolation to start with to see the impact for a few weeks, maybe further relaxation at the end of March.


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I can’t see how they can open schools up but yet keep outdoor sports like Tennis clubs etc closed - or indeed any other businesses that have shown to be able to work within Covid guidelines.

Schools , Universities and Pubs etc are areas that they have always seen as the biggest issues.
		
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Perhaps, perhaps not, but that's what he said in the commons today. Schools to open first, and then further social restrictions to follow after. 

I'm gonna guess Saturday 1st April. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-...11794e54a69202e80ddea3&pinned_post_type=share


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## NearHull (Jan 27, 2021)

I understand that a considerable number of deaths occur in some people who appear to be getting better and then take a sudden and rapid decline.  Is it known when this occurs?  I believe the unfortunate patients who suffer this decline are in Intensive Care.  I’m trying to get my head around the issue where someone appears to be recovering or perhaps holding their own and then suffers this tragic occurrence in so much as when do the professionals make the judgement that the recovery is ‘real’ and the irrecoverable relapse will not happen.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Because schools are seen as the priority to the detriment of all else. Not saying it was the sole cause but numbers shot up last time when schools and universities went back. I suspect schools will be opened in isolation to start with to see the impact for a few weeks, maybe further relaxation at the end of March.
		
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I really can’t see it lasting until end of March if the vaccine program carries on and the numbers have reduced which is key  - end of March/April for the likes of hospitality areas then yes but I can see. Tier system from when they open schools again - it might be Tier 3 and 4 for many .

But the numbers will be the key


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Perhaps, perhaps not, but that's what he said in the commons today. Schools to open first, and then further social restrictions to follow after.

I'm gonna guess Saturday 1st April.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-55823064?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6011794e54a69202e80ddea3&Watch: Not possible to open schools straight after half-term&2021-01-27T14:32:52.718Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:2a62e838-617c-4e93-9fba-08e6ec2f2af0&pinned_post_asset_id=6011794e54a69202e80ddea3&pinned_post_type=share

Click to expand...

He also corrected himself by saying Schools opening up 8th March and after other areas and then changed to “then or after” - which to me points to some levels of easing at the same time 🤷‍♂️


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## upsidedown (Jan 27, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I understand that a considerable number of deaths occur in some people who appear to be getting better and then take a sudden and rapid decline.  Is it known when this occurs?  I believe the unfortunate patients who suffer this decline are in Intensive Care.  I’m trying to get my head around the issue where someone appears to be recovering or perhaps holding their own and then suffers this tragic occurrence in so much as when do the professionals make the judgement that the recovery is ‘real’ and the irrecoverable relapse will not happen.
		
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Not just ICU, heard of a very upsetting case where the wife was phoned to come and collect her husband who had been hospitalised that he was well enough to go home and could she come and collect him but unfortunately by the time she got there he had had a relapse and died .


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He also corrected himself by saying Schools opening up 8th March and after other areas and then changed to “then or after” - which to me points to some levels of easing at the same time 🤷‍♂️
		
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You're getting my hopes up. Don't dissapoint me...


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I understand that a considerable number of deaths occur in some people who appear to be getting better and then take a sudden and rapid decline.  Is it known when this occurs?  I believe the unfortunate patients who suffer this decline are in Intensive Care.  I’m trying to get my head around the issue where someone appears to be recovering or perhaps holding their own and then suffers this tragic occurrence in so much as when do the professionals make the judgement that the recovery is ‘real’ and the irrecoverable relapse will not happen.
		
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Day 7 or so, when the cytokine storm (a massive immune reaction) occurs. This is the point when this moves from being a lung condition to a systemic inflammatory reaction affecting heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, vasculature. There is some evidence just published that people who are likely to go this route have higher levels of certain substances in their bodies early in disease, so that offers an opportunity to line up some treatments like tocilizumab in time.


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I really can’t see it lasting until end of March if the vaccine program carries on and the numbers have reduced which is key  - end of March/April for the likes of hospitality areas then yes but I can see. Tier system from when they open schools again - it might be Tier 3 and 4 for many .

But the numbers will be the key
		
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Totally selfish but from my point of view, Tier 3 or 4 makes next to no difference to full lockdown.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 27, 2021)

Schools MIGHT open up from 8th March and judging from some people it will be a very phased opening and not every school from 9am if indeed it will be that date


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I think that’s what a lot expected - he said that schools etc would get prior notice of what happens next

So on 22nd that gives two weeks for schools and businesses to get themselves ready

Potentially golf clubs as well - and within some sort of Tier system no doubt.
		
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March 8th looks a lot like the date by which they expect to have all 70+ done, plus 2 or 3 weeks.

By then, I suspect the backbenchers will be going berserk demanding opening up, and there could be an irresistible momentum behind more opening up, in time for Easter.

It is going to be really difficult to impose and have acceptance for more tightening after this, because of vaccination, improving weather, fatigue and general stroppiness, so they had better get it right. If the vaccination programme stalls due to supply problems, or there is a new strain which changes the dynamics again, it could all go bad quickly.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think the difference was the collective pull in the same direction and most were in the same boat. In this some have had a pretty easy ride on a financial front whilst others have watched their businesses, savings etc all disappear. We've got around 5% of the working population who are in this situation through no fault of their own yet 'no one has been left behind'. You then have people questioning why some aren't sticking to lockdown or no isolating. In a lot of cases they cannot afford to.
		
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Now the goalposts have shifted slightly. No problem, because we aren't talking "want no lockdown cos of mental issues" . We are now talking about financial effects of lockdown.
Yes, some have had it very hard, business wise, financially etc; but , as I understand it, in this lockdown the government have said work from home if you can, if not , go to work.
Though , of course, some businesses have had to close. Hospitality being in the forefront.
I am not au fait with what financial help is or is not available from Chancellor,
for working people financially affected,
but I do not doubt some people have come off very badly through no fault of their own
Now, they do have reason to worry, and, yes, the sooner this is over for them , particularly, the better.  So, if we all keep to the guidelines to knock down the deaths, hospital patients, etc, the sooner the easements will happen, surely?
We can't keep going partly out then back into lockdown, again and again.
Making these decisions,government wise, is not easy. Pressures from all different directions.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Totally selfish but from my point of view, Tier 3 or 4 makes next to no difference to full lockdown.
		
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We have been in tier 3 since October and the difference between that and a post Christmas lockdown is minimal in reality. I'm not sure, other than schools being shut, that I could tell you the difference without googling it. In reality it's lockdown or tiers 1 and 2. Anything else is window dressing or spin.

I know it's necessary but it doesn't mean we can't grumble about how rubbish it is right now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			We have been in tier 3 since October and the difference between that and a post Christmas lockdown is minimal in reality. I'm not sure, other than schools being shut, that I could tell you the difference without googling it. In reality it's lockdown or tiers 1 and 2. Anything else is window dressing or spin.

I know it's necessary but it doesn't mean we can't grumble about how rubbish it is right now.
		
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Tier 3 allowed you to meet more than one other outside , Amatuer sports still going on , golf clubs , tennis clubs etc still open and other work places still open 

Basically the only thing you couldn’t do was go to a pub and a restaurant or get your hair cut


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Tier 3 allowed you to meet more than one other outside , Amatuer sports still going on , golf clubs , tennis clubs etc still open and other work places still open 

Basically the only thing you couldn’t do was go to a pub and a restaurant or get your hair cut
		
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Minimal in reality. I could meet people outside, up to 6, but it's winter so sitting in the garden was off. Yes to golf. Shops were open but the pleasure was sucked out of that by number restrictions inside, one way systems etc. 

The social aspect of meeting people in a pleasant environment was largely off the table. Not in your house, not in their house, not in a cafe, not in a bar, not in a restaurant. 

The reality of tier 3 and full lockdown, certainly in winter, is too close to make a big difference.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Minimal in reality. I could meet people outside, up to 6, but it's winter so sitting in the garden was off. Yes to golf. Shops were open but the pleasure was sucked out of that by number restrictions inside, one way systems etc.

The social aspect of meeting people in a pleasant environment was largely off the table. The reality of tier 3 and full lockdown, certainly in winter, is too close to make a big difference.
		
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All depends

It was good for all those people playing Amatuer sport - and very good for the thousands of golf courses to still be open to allow the hundreds of thousands to still play a round of golf

when they do ease restrictions then it’s not going to allow everyone to do what they want - each step will allow something more and it’s about grabbing those opportunities- being able to mix with more than 1 other will be good for a lot of people  but it’s going to be outside first until at least April


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 27, 2021)

[QUOTE=", or there is a new strain which changes the dynamics again, it could all go bad quickly.[/QUOTE]

Oh they’ll definitely be a new more virulent magical strain just around the end of feb so we can be battery hens even longer! The dangling carrot will be wizzed away quicker than you can say lockdown.


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## Mudball (Jan 27, 2021)

Speaking to someone  in the trade, he mentioned, they are unlikely to reopen in a very long time.  No appetite to open if the local lockdown is changed to lower grade - costs too much to train staff, get food and drinks - end up throwing evrything away when the local area goes up..   So be prepared for no pubs till mid summer


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

In a bit of an angry mood today. Was listening to talk sport and the list of summer sporting events. How long before we see calls for Olympic athletes, footballers in the euros, lions rugby players etc to get vaccinated early to allow these events to take place.


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## fundy (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			In a bit of an angry mood today. Was listening to talk sport and the list of summer sporting events. How long before we see calls for Olympic athletes, footballers in the euros, lions rugby players etc to get vaccinated early to allow these events to take place.
		
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Cricket Australia already gone down that path ahead of their tour to SA...........


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## fundy (Jan 27, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Speaking to someone  in the trade, he mentioned, they are unlikely to reopen in a very long time.  No appetite to open if the local lockdown is changed to lower grade - costs too much to train staff, get food and drinks - end up throwing evrything away when the local area goes up..   So be prepared for no pubs till mid summer
		
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that may be the case for some but certainly wont be for all, plenty will open up the day they can


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## Crazyface (Jan 27, 2021)

Can we comment on the news story regarding AZ and the EU or is that classed as political.


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			Cricket Australia already gone down that path ahead of their tour to SA...........
		
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That went down well😁😁. Can see the IOC getting in to this for the Olympics shortly followed by FIFA for the euros.


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## fundy (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			That went down well😁😁. Can see the IOC getting in to this for the Olympics shortly followed by FIFA for the euros.
		
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Pretty sure theyll cancel the Olympics again, less sure about the Euros....


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			Pretty sure theyll cancel the Olympics again, less sure about the Euros....
		
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What and those renowned benefactors the IOC hand back those billions in TV money and possibly compensate Tokyo for their losses


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## fundy (Jan 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			What and those renowned benefactors the IOC hand back those billions in TV money and possibly compensate Tokyo for their losses
		
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nah theyll just push it back another year


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## upsidedown (Jan 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			nah theyll just push it back another year
		
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Reported just now on th e news they are definetly going ahead this year


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## fundy (Jan 27, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Reported just now on th e news they are definetly going ahead this year
		
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Im amazed tbh, feels like a disaster waiting to happen, lets hope im wrong


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			Im amazed tbh, feels like a disaster waiting to happen, lets hope im wrong
		
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I suppose with the Olympics village set up you could, in theory create a massive bubble but then you have the media etc to deal with and no fans


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			Im amazed tbh, feels like a disaster waiting to happen, lets hope im wrong
		
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Seems like a pretty good way to get any new strains/mutations of the virus to spread around the world in the shortest possible time. People from every country on earth mixing for a few weeks in Tokyo and then going home doesn't seem like a great idea.


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## fundy (Jan 27, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Seems like a pretty good way to get any new strains/mutations of the virus to spread around the world in the shortest possible time. People from every country on earth mixing for a few weeks in Tokyo and then going home doesn't seem like a great idea.
		
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surprised we havent offered to step in as hosts


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## williamalex1 (Jan 27, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I understand that a considerable number of deaths occur in some people who appear to be getting better and then take a sudden and rapid decline.  Is it known when this occurs?  I believe the unfortunate patients who suffer this decline are in Intensive Care.  I’m trying to get my head around the issue where someone appears to be recovering or perhaps holding their own and then suffers this tragic occurrence in so much as when do the professionals make the judgement that the recovery is ‘real’ and the irrecoverable relapse will not happen.
		
Click to expand...

A friend's son died last week in hospital just as he seemed to be recovering well from Covid.
Seemingly he suffered a sudden blood clot,
 I don't know where the blood clot was/formed


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2021)

Who’s first?


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 27, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Who’s first?
View attachment 34723

Click to expand...

I'm guessing that they won't have drive through testing centres for those. "Now if sir wouldn't mind just dropping his trousers and sticking his backside out of the window".


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 27, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm guessing that they won't have drive through testing centres for those. "Now if sir wouldn't mind just dropping his trousers and sticking his backside out of the window".
		
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There are probably one or two on here who would consider that a standard Friday night out


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm guessing that they won't have drive through testing centres for those. "Now if sir wouldn't mind just dropping his trousers and sticking his backside out of the window".
		
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30 years of playing rugby means I became quite proficient at the out the window Mooney


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 27, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm guessing that they won't have drive through testing centres for those. "Now if sir wouldn't mind just dropping his trousers and sticking his backside out of the window".
		
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Having thought about this, I suppose the tests could be self-administered. But that does mean, depending on the size of the swab, that there is the prospect of some who will be keen to do a much more thorough test than others.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			A friend's son died last week in hospital just as he seemed to be recovering well from Covid.
Seemingly he suffered a sudden blood clot,
I don't know where the blood clot was/formed 

Click to expand...

One of the effects of the cytokine storm is hypercoagulability, excessive clotting, as well as blood vessel wall damage, which can lead to thrombosis. Sorry to hear about your friend's loss.

People often say that not many younger people die of Covid, and that is true. But when even a few younger people suddenly go, it really hits home.

And as I have warned before, we are storing up some bad sh!t for the future with a lot of Covid damage that has yet to play out. For example: Sky News report

Don't get Covid if you can avoid it.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 27, 2021)

A left field thought, stop the testing and use all of the testing centres for drive through vaccine centres.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 27, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			A left field thought, stop the testing and use all of the testing centres for drive through vaccine centres.
		
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Doesn't work the same. ( not like the flu jab) .Have to be out of car for some while for vaccination.
But I see why you thought that way.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Who’s first?
View attachment 34723

Click to expand...

For all the good that will be you might as well shove it up your arse


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Doesn't work the same. ( not like the flu jab) .Have to be out of car for some while for vaccination.
But I see why you thought that way.
		
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Not in the US, where you stay in the car, and offer a shoulder.


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			One of the effects of the cytokine storm is hypercoagulability, excessive clotting, as well as blood vessel wall damage, which can lead to thrombosis.
		
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I had multiple PE about 6 years back, I think I should ask my GP in which risk bracket I sit as apparently I am more likely to develop clotting again.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not in the US, where you stay in the car, and offer a shoulder.
		
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Good job it's not given in the glutes😳

Don't see much wrong with that, actually- but here they want you to sit for 15 mins after the jab in case of a reaction?  Can guess why!
I chose to wait outside rather than sit amongst a dozen others indoors, even with a door open!


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## DRW (Jan 28, 2021)

A week on and assuming the graphs are correct, starting to look very promising with a noticeable drop in over 60s in Israel and not just stat noise:-

מואיז הקטן ® on Twitter: "@GazitDoron @RonnyLinder @diklaaharon @ShaniAshkenazi @HebrewU @rannirpaz1 @kereneubach @Nadav_Eyal ונקנח בשני גרפים הכי מעודדים שיש! שימו לב לצניחה החופשית בכמות המאומתים בגילאי 60+ (אולי רמז להדבקה פחותה בעקבות החיסונים או לפחות פחות סימפטומים שגורם לפחות בדיקות ומאומתים...). בנוסף מגמת הקשים החדשים בגילאי 60+ שיורד למול 0-59. תיהיו אופטימיים... בקיץ כולנו ביוון! https://t.co/Hi8q5SWUPj" / Twitter


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## rudebhoy (Jan 28, 2021)

DRW said:



			A week on and assuming the graphs are correct, starting to look very promising with a noticeable drop in over 60s in Israel and not just stat noise:-

מואיז הקטן ® on Twitter: "@GazitDoron @RonnyLinder @diklaaharon @ShaniAshkenazi @HebrewU @rannirpaz1 @kereneubach @Nadav_Eyal ונקנח בשני גרפים הכי מעודדים שיש! שימו לב לצניחה החופשית בכמות המאומתים בגילאי 60+ (אולי רמז להדבקה פחותה בעקבות החיסונים או לפחות פחות סימפטומים שגורם לפחות בדיקות ומאומתים...). בנוסף מגמת הקשים החדשים בגילאי 60+ שיורד למול 0-59. תיהיו אופטימיים... בקיץ כולנו ביוון! https://t.co/Hi8q5SWUPj" / Twitter

View attachment 34725

View attachment 34726

Click to expand...

how much of the drop on the 2nd graph is due to vaccination? we are seeing a similar drop here in new cases, but I don't think the vaccine is the significant factor. this looks to me like they are a week or two behind us on the curve?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 28, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			how much of the drop on the 2nd graph is due to vaccination? we are seeing a similar drop here in new cases, but I don't think the vaccine is the significant factor. this looks to me like they are a week or two behind us on the curve?
		
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We've gone into lockdown, have they?


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## DRW (Jan 28, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			how much of the drop on the 2nd graph is due to vaccination? we are seeing a similar drop here in new cases, but I don't think the vaccine is the significant factor. this looks to me like they are a week or two behind us on the curve?
		
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Load up the equivalent two graphs from the UK(ie. age 0-59 and 60+ for cases and new severe cases), confirming what you say ?

SR Israel is in lockdown of a sort...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not in the US, where you stay in the car, and offer a shoulder.
		
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Well you can't expect an American to actually get out of his car!😏


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2021)

I was celebrating last week that the daily covid vaccinations had reached almost half a million. Since then they've dropped dramatically. What's going on?


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## Imurg (Jan 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I was celebrating last week that the daily covid vaccinations had reached almost half a million. Since then they've dropped dramatically. What's going on?
		
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Supply issues?


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## upsidedown (Jan 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I was celebrating last week that the daily covid vaccinations had reached almost half a million. Since then they've dropped dramatically. What's going on?
		
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Imurg said:



			Supply issues?
		
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Could be, the clinic where my wife vaccinates is closing down until March 7th when they will start doing 2nd doses


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2021)

Stats always fluctuate- since yesterday they did another half a mil and currently it’s at 7.5 mil vaccines administered, It always seems to ramp up to the weekend and then drop down again - maybe it’s staffing issues but they still seem to be on track - unless you read the red tops who react after each day 

In regards other stats 

The amount in hospital has dropped down now 

On the 27th January, there were 30,846 patients in England, down 1,491 from the day before and down 3,490 from the peak on the 18th January.

The 7 day average of cases has greatly dropped and the level of deaths has plateaued


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## bobmac (Jan 28, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stats always fluctuate- since yesterday they did another half a mil and currently it’s at 7.5 mil vaccines administered, It always seems to ramp up to the weekend and then drop down again -
		
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Thats not I'm seeing.
23rd Last saturday 491,970
Yesterday 282,812

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations


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## SaintHacker (Jan 28, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Stats always fluctuate- since yesterday they did another half a mil and currently it’s at 7.5 mil vaccines administered, It always seems to ramp up to the weekend and then drop down again - maybe it’s staffing issues but they still seem to be on track - unless you read the red tops who react after each day

In regards other stats

The amount in hospital has dropped down now

On the 27th January, there were 30,846 patients in England, down 1,491 from the day before and down 3,490 from the peak on the 18th January.

The 7 day average of cases has greatly dropped and the level of deaths has plateaued
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully we're at/over the peak of this wave now. What we could really do with now is a good early spring so people can get out and meet friends/family outside like we had last year. It will do huge things for peoples moods, that coupled with the vaccines could make things look a lot brighter for the future


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## Mudball (Jan 28, 2021)

any reason why they cant convert Nightingales and GP surgeries to support roll out ...   24/7 is another option.  Get the young ones vaccinated when they stumble out of night clubs or raves..


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2021)

Mudball said:



			any reason why they cant convert Nightingales and GP surgeries to support roll out ...   24/7 is another option.  Get the young ones vaccinated when they stumble out of night clubs or raves..
		
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I don't think the issue is the ability to jab, it's supply of vaccine. Listening to gp's and others up here they are geared up to jab in droves but the supply can't keep up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 28, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't think the issue is the ability to jab, it's supply of vaccine. Listening to gp's and others up here they are geared up to jab in droves but the supply can't keep up.
		
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The Nightingale in Sunderland is now a vaccine centre.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The Nightingale in Sunderland is now a vaccine centre.

Click to expand...

So I heard. A local councillor was bemoaning the fact that existing centres were short of vaccines so was not entirely convinced of the purpose of opening the nightingale.

They could make sense if we can get lorry loads of vaccines, it depends on their locations


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## SaintHacker (Jan 28, 2021)

I think the ExCel is being changed so half of it is hospital and the other half is going to be a vacc centre


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## User62651 (Jan 28, 2021)

Should I be relieved the old dear (90s) got the Pfizer jab and not the Astra Zeneca one? 
Is Germany just being cautious waiting for more data or have they written the AZ one off for ages 65+?
Don't need news headlines like this at the mo. Confidence in vaccines is already a little shaky. 🤔


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## USER1999 (Jan 28, 2021)

More to the point, will those who have had the Pfizer first dose actually get the second shot? The EU look to be thinking of blocking export from Pfizer.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2021)

maxfli65 said:



			Should I be relieved the old dear (90s) got the Pfizer jab and not the Astra Zeneca one?
Is Germany just being cautious waiting for more data or have they written the AZ one off for ages 65+?
Don't need news headlines like this at the mo. Confidence in vaccines is already a little shaky. 🤔
		
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I thought the EU had an authorizing body, are Germany going it alone, mind you AZ still not authorized by the EU yet.


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			More to the point, will those who have had the Pfizer first dose actually get the second shot? The EU look to be thinking of blocking export from Pfizer.
		
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I think that was the German Health Minister beating his gums. I’m not sure anyone ones to get into a tit for tat vaccine war.


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2021)

Biontech will start producing in Germany from the middle of February onwards. Should give a boost to the delivery chain, shouldn’t it?


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## IainP (Jan 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Thats not I'm seeing.
23rd Last saturday 491,970
Yesterday 282,812

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

Click to expand...

Data guy from FT was on the radio earlier, he was suggesting this up & down is expected as chunks of supply arrive. Suggested focusing on 7 day averages (bit like the other stats) and wasn't worried about not hitting target yet.
Was refreshing to have a pragmatic person on the media without hyperbole.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Thats not I'm seeing.
23rd Last saturday 491,970
Yesterday 282,812

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

Click to expand...

As I said the daily stats will fluctuate because of staff and supplies , the supplies arrive in areas en bulk , they smash through the vaccines quickly and then need to wait 2-4 days for their next load 

The 7 day average is key - it needs to be about 350k a day to hit the mid Feb target 

Obviously the likes of the Daily Mail cherry pick the single day figures and continue to peddle the negative narrative


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## upsidedown (Jan 28, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said the daily stats will fluctuate because of staff and supplies , the supplies arrive in areas en bulk , they smash through the vaccines quickly and then need to wait 2-4 days for their next load

QUOTE]
Can only speak for where SM vaccinates and that certainly wasn't the case up until next weekend. All jabs are by appointments and they always ensured they used every dose with appointments set up a week in advance. No more appointments now as they are closing until Mar 7th when they start the 2nd doses
		
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## Ethan (Jan 28, 2021)

The AZ data set is a bit of a mess. It was really several studies all done with varying elements in them and they don't fit together very well. The confused dosing and intervals were part of it. Another was that few older patients were enrolled, and they were enrolled late. In the group aged 65 or more, there were only two cases of Covid, one in vaccine and one in placebo. These trials were designed and set up by Oxford, not AZ, and look very much like academic trials rather than industry trials. 

In the data set there is no sniff, let alone evidence of the effectiveness on Covid reduction in older people. This is an issue because in the period before these vaccines came through, there was concern that older people might respond differently. The Pfizer vacc has a different delivery vehicle which may result in different effects in some groups, so translating their data across was not really reasonable. 

The EMA will do the overall approval, but the Koch Institute (the German MHRA) is an influential and highly reputable country regulator. The way EU approval works is that EMA approves but each country then needs to ratify, so it remains to be seen whether EMA will give a broad approval and let countries then modify for local preferences or not. 

The longer term plan is that there is a US trial ongoing, and run by AZ, so it will be conducted well and cover the bases. If that brings in some decent data, the approval can be extended to cover older patients. 

It is also worth noting that the FDA in the US have not yet approved either, nor Canada or Australia. They are all taking a long hard look at the data, which as I said above is rather messy. The MHRA is currently the outlier amongst leading regulators in having approved it. 

The German comments are really nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the approach of the Ged,an authority. At present, I am dealing with comments on an entirely different application by an EU company and they are doing precisely the same. It is just who they are. But if it turned out that there was an adverse effect on this vaccine, lets say for example it accelerated dementia in older people with early dementia, there would be a public outcry and demand to know what this wasn't throughly evaluated before release. Damned if they do ....


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## funkycoldmedina (Jan 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			But if it turned out that there was an adverse effect on this vaccine, lets say for example it accelerated dementia in older people with early dementia, there would be a public outcry and demand to know what this wasn't throughly evaluated before release. Damned if they do ....
		
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My dad deteriorated rapidly and died a few days after having his AZ 1st jab in his home a few weeks ago. He had well established vascular dementia and when you get to that stage of life it could well have been another stroke , an infection or something else. The only way to know if the vaccines is causing adverse events is if they are recording events like my dad's.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 28, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			My dad deteriorated rapidly and died a few days after having his AZ 1st jab in his home a few weeks ago. He had well established vascular dementia and when you get to that stage of life it could well have been another stroke , an infection or something else. The only way to know if the vaccines is causing adverse events is if they are recording events like my dad's.
		
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Sorry for your loss.


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## road2ruin (Jan 28, 2021)

A bit more good news with another vaccine coming online. Novavax is 89.3% effective against the nee strains. 

If approved we have 60m doses on order.


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2021)

Is that 60m of that vaccine, or a total over all vaccines combined?
And is 60 enough, or is that 60m for 30m people?


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## Old Skier (Jan 28, 2021)

larmen said:



			Is that 60m of that vaccine, or a total over all vaccines combined?
And is 60 enough, or is that 60m for 30m people?
		
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60 of that vaccine.


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## Ethan (Jan 28, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			My dad deteriorated rapidly and died a few days after having his AZ 1st jab in his home a few weeks ago. He had well established vascular dementia and when you get to that stage of life it could well have been another stroke , an infection or something else. The only way to know if the vaccines is causing adverse events is if they are recording events like my dad's.
		
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Sorry to hear that. That was just a random example of a reason why some degree of caution is wise when approving medicines, not any specific suspicion or known side effect, by the way.


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## Ethan (Jan 28, 2021)

larmen said:



			Is that 60m of that vaccine, or a total over all vaccines combined?
And is 60 enough, or is that 60m for 30m people?
		
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There are orders placed for 360m shots, although 60m of that is for GSK/Sanofi which appears to have run into problems. The orders appear excessive but are staged across the year and allow for development or manufacturing problems.


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## Slime (Jan 29, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			My dad deteriorated rapidly and died a few days after having his AZ 1st jab in his home a few weeks ago. He had well established vascular dementia and when you get to that stage of life it could well have been another stroke , an infection or something else. The only way to know if the vaccines is causing adverse events is if they are recording events like my dad's.
		
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I'm sorry to hear that, funky, truly sorry.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 29, 2021)

Got my jab notification today. I tried to find a vaccination hub in my area but there aren't any yet so have to wait to be notified from my GP.


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## GB72 (Jan 29, 2021)

A question for Ethan if he can help. How effective does a vaccine need to be classed as a viable option. I look at the 66% figures for the one shot and that seems low compared to the other options but, then again, that may be the norm and the others are just very high. Would be interested to hear what percentage is seen as acceptable. My mum got the Pfizer jab yesterday and was happy that was what was on offer.


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## Ethan (Jan 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			A question for Ethan if he can help. How effective does a vaccine need to be classed as a viable option. I look at the 66% figures for the one shot and that seems low compared to the other options but, then again, that may be the norm and the others are just very high. Would be interested to hear what percentage is seen as acceptable. My mum got the Pfizer jab yesterday and was happy that was what was on offer.
		
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The FDA said that in order to be approvable, a vaccine would have to reduce cases by at least 50%, so they pretty much all do that, including recently announced results from Novavax and J&J.

People focus on that headline number for the prevention of symptomatic Covid, and that is important. But the studies so far have shown that after a couple of weeks, when the vaccine effect kicks in, they also have a strong effect in reducing severity in those who still get it, in some cases eliminating hospitalisation or Covid-related death. It seems highly improbable that they do not reduce transmission as well. Even Chris Whitty more or less admitted that the other day.

At the outset of these development programmes, if companies had promised a 2/3 reduction in clinical cases, but more or less elimination of serious/severe Covid, we would have grabbed that with both hands, and all available vaccines do or exceed that.

Personally, if given a choice, and I won't be, I would opt for Pfizer too. It seems to get to a high initial effect faster and I think the vaccine tech is cool. But if offered the AZ, I will take it.


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## GB72 (Jan 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The FDA said that in order to be approvable, a vaccine would have to reduce cases by at least 50%, so they pretty much all do that, including recently announced results from Novavax and J&J.

People focus on that headline number for the prevention of symptomatic Covid, and that is important. But the studies so far have shown that after a couple of weeks, when the vaccine effect kicks in, they also have a strong effect in reducing severity in those who still get it, in some cases eliminating hospitalisation or Covid-related death. It seems highly improbable that they do not reduce transmission as well. Even Chris Whitty more or less admitted that the other day.

At the outset of these development programmes, if companies had promised a 2/3 reduction in clinical cases, but more or less elimination of serious/severe Covid, we would have grabbed that with both hands, and all available vaccines do or exceed that.

Personally, if given a choice, and I won't be, I would opt for Pfizer too. It seems to get to a high initial effect faster and I think the vaccine tech is cool. But if offered the AZ, I will take it.
		
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Thanks, that really helps. As I mentioned, and based on much of what you have said on here, I was not worried which jab my mum got but felt the Pfizer one was the best option at this stage. 

Helps to have a bit of information to help translate the media stories. When you put it as you have, a 2/3 reduction in clinical cases, it sounds such much more reassuring than the 66% effective headlines. Guess it is all semantics


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## Slime (Jan 29, 2021)

Silly question for Ethan, but what do you do for a living?
Obviously in the medical profession, but what?
Just curious because, for some reason going back a long time, I thought you were in the golf profession, heavily involved in golf club shaft technology! Not sure what gave me that idea, but hey!


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## Imurg (Jan 29, 2021)

Slime said:



			Silly question for Ethan, but what do you do for a living?
Obviously in the medical profession, but what?
Just curious because, for some reason going back a long time, I thought you were in the golf profession, heavily involved in golf club shaft technology! Not sure what gave me that idea, but hey!
		
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Well, he was known as Shaft for a while..Damn right.


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## Ethan (Jan 29, 2021)

Slime said:



			Silly question for Ethan, but what do you do for a living?
Obviously in the medical profession, but what?
Just curious because, for some reason going back a long time, I thought you were in the golf profession, heavily involved in golf club shaft technology! Not sure what gave me that idea, but hey!
		
Click to expand...

I was a public health doctor, so know a bit about epidemiology, epidemics and vaccines, that sort of stuff, now in pharmaceutical clinical development (designing and running clinical trials).


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## SteveW86 (Jan 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I was a public health doctor, so know a bit about epidemiology, epidemics and vaccines, that sort of stuff, now in pharmaceutical clinical development (designing and running clinical trials).
		
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Don’t forget to add GM Forum medical advisor to your CV

I think we all appreciate the expertise and sense you bring to this subject


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## Ethan (Jan 29, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Don’t forget to add GM Forum medical advisor to your CV

I think we all appreciate the expertise and sense you bring to this subject
		
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I try not to give any medical advice, because I can't know the medical history of anyone here, I prefer to stick to commentary and interpretation of stories in the media.


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## GB72 (Jan 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I try not to give any medical advice, because I can't know the medical history of anyone here, I prefer to stick to commentary and interpretation of stories in the media.
		
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GM chief medical correspondent then😁


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## srixon 1 (Jan 29, 2021)

I was supposed to be getting my gallstones oiked out on Tuesday. Operation has been cancelled because the hospital is swamped with covid patients.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 30, 2021)

srixon 1 said:



			I was supposed to be getting my gallstones oiked out on Tuesday. Operation has been cancelled because the hospital is swamped with covid patients.
		
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If you are in as much pain as I used to be, I really feel for you. Had my gallbladder removed some years ago.


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## srixon 1 (Jan 30, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			If you are in as much pain as I used to be, I really feel for you. Had my gallbladder removed some years ago.
		
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the last time they gave me grief the pain lasted for three days.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 30, 2021)

srixon 1 said:



			the last time they gave me grief the pain lasted for three days.
		
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Sorry to hear. I used to have to end up on all fours and not move for sometimes 30 mins. At times I thought I was having a heart attack. I initially went to gp with chest pains. He sent me straight to a+e and I then didn’t see daylight for 7 days. Did not pass go or collect £200. Once they ruled out heart and hernias they then diagnosed gallbladder. 
unfortunatly consultant said possible wait time 12 months. I could not last that long. On discharge I enquired about private. He said ring my secretary on Monday. Was under the knife within 2 weeks.


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## AliMc (Jan 30, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Sorry to hear. I used to have to end up on all fours and not move for sometimes 30 mins. At times I thought I was having a heart attack. I initially went to gp with chest pains. He sent me straight to a+e and I then didn’t see daylight for 7 days. Did not pass go or collect £200. Once they ruled out heart and hernias they then diagnosed gallbladder.
unfortunatly consultant said possible wait time 12 months. I could not last that long. On discharge I enquired about private. He said ring my secretary on Monday. Was under the knife within 2 weeks.
		
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Similar with me, absolutely horrific chest pains, given 2 doses of morphine just get me into the ambulance, had my gallbladder out the next day, all went well and 2 weeks later I was on the putting green looking forward to playing again, very next day chest pains again, rushed back into hospital with pancreatitis, recovering from that when I got C-diff in my bowel, hospital phoned my wife at 10:30 one night and told her i probably wouldn't survive the night, but I did, it was 13 years ago and now I'm fully fit and healthy, doesn't half change your outlook on things though, my kids were only 3 and 1 at the time.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 30, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Similar with me, absolutely horrific chest pains, given 2 doses of morphine just get me into the ambulance, had my gallbladder out the next day, all went well and 2 weeks later I was on the putting green looking forward to playing again, very next day chest pains again, rushed back into hospital with pancreatitis, recovering from that when I got C-diff in my bowel, hospital phoned my wife at 10:30 one night and told her i probably wouldn't survive the night, but I did, it was 13 years ago and now I'm fully fit and healthy, doesn't half change your outlook on things though, my kids were only 3 and 1 at the time.
		
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Glad to hear you fit and well. Horrible time for you and the family 👍


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## Captainron (Jan 30, 2021)

Still don’t actual know anyone personally who has been badly affected by it. Loads have been tested positive but all went through with zero issues


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## hovis (Jan 30, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Still don’t actual know anyone personally who has been badly affected by it. Loads have been tested positive but all went through with zero issues
		
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I said this a few months ago.  Since then two people at work have died age 31 and 46 (no underlying conditions) and my neighbours either side have both lost their husbands.   We've also had lots of watches get sent home for 10 days due to isolated outbreaks.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355551070869721088


Vaccine program going well - nearly 9 million have had the vaccine 

The seven day average on cases still reducing 

The level of deaths has plateaued and maybe on the way down 

Number of hospital admissions for Covid also started to reduce


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## Paperboy (Jan 30, 2021)

Also almost half a million have had their second jabs.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 30, 2021)

Althougj the article itself is a bit doom and gloomy the vaccine graph is well worth a look, we are smashing it.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...ic-isnt-over-until-its-over-globally-12203057


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## larmen (Jan 30, 2021)

Got my text message today with an invite for booking an appointment.
Non available right now but I keep checking and book one hopefully very soon.


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## Crazyface (Jan 30, 2021)

Does anyone know which category we are up to jab wise?


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## Old Skier (Jan 30, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Does anyone know which category we are up to jab wise?
		
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First 4


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 30, 2021)

Over 70's  here but because there are so many of us it has so far restricted to 72 to 75.

Guess who is 71³/⁴?


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## anotherdouble (Jan 30, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Over 70's  here but because there are so many of us it has so far restricted to 72 to 75.

Guess who is 71³/⁴?
		
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A very old Adrian Mole👍


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## Old Skier (Jan 30, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Over 70's  here but because there are so many of us it has so far restricted to 72 to 75.

Guess who is 71³/⁴?
		
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Still struggling in N Devon getting the 80’s done. It seems it’s easier to get to the moon than here.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 30, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			A very old Adrian Mole👍
		
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Well I do live pretty near to Leicester (Adrian's home town).


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## MegaSteve (Jan 30, 2021)

I believe I fall into tier 6 [turning 68 in July]...
I am having my doubts, with all the politicking, that I'll get a jab ahead of my birthday...


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## User62651 (Jan 30, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Still don’t actual know anyone personally who has been badly affected by it. Loads have been tested positive but all went through with zero issues
		
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I have a near neighbour I don't know who was in an induced coma for 3 weeks but pulled through. Only people I know who had it bad are both GPs in mid 50s, one hospitalised ill, other one quite ill but at home. Both on the mend. Guess they get exposed to high viral loads.


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## Reemul (Jan 30, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Still don’t actual know anyone personally who has been badly affected by it. Loads have been tested positive but all went through with zero issues
		
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I don't actually understand what that means really, i mean there are loads of things that happen to other people that I have never known anyone have does that make them any less serious or sad or depressing, probably not to those involved just thank your lucky stars it hasn't happened to anyone you know or are close to because when it does it is dreadful.


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## Captainron (Jan 30, 2021)

Reemul said:



			I don't actually understand what that means really, i mean there are loads of things that happen to other people that I have never known anyone have does that make them any less serious or sad or depressing, probably not to those involved just thank your lucky stars it hasn't happened to anyone you know or are close to because when it does it is dreadful.
		
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Just answering the question, how has it affected you (me) and so far it hasn’t really.  Anything else?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 30, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Do you know how old he actually is now?
		
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Not as old as me!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jan 30, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Lol, he'd be 54 in April.
Random fact of the day 🧐😅
		
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Mere child then.😉


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## Slime (Jan 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I was a public health doctor, so know a bit about epidemiology, epidemics and vaccines, that sort of stuff, now in pharmaceutical clinical development (designing and running clinical trials).
		
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Thanks Ethan.


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## GB72 (Jan 30, 2021)

Reemul said:



			I don't actually understand what that means really, i mean there are loads of things that happen to other people that I have never known anyone have does that make them any less serious or sad or depressing, probably not to those involved just thank your lucky stars it hasn't happened to anyone you know or are close to because when it does it is dreadful.
		
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I guess it is just a direct thing. I live in a rural community and work in a market town and so the direct impact is limited. Does not make the position any less heartbreaking or impact on how I behave but I know 3 people that have actually had covid and they are all fine. On a direct impact level covid has not really impacted so far as people who have had it are concerned but it makes it no less worrying or concerning overall.


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## larmen (Jan 30, 2021)

larmen said:



			Got my text message today with an invite for booking an appointment.
Non available right now but I keep checking and book one hopefully very soon.
		
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Logged in again to check the medical centre options and the one a couple of miles away from here had a spot tomorrow evening.

I think I am category 4. I was guessing if I might be nothing or slip into cat 6, maybe my doc will tell me more next month when I see him.

The 2nd one got a mention with a 12 week note to it, who knows what happens. Just happy to be on the list for a 1st shot.


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## HeftyHacker (Jan 30, 2021)

I had covid back in September and got through it relatively unscathed with the exception of my smell and taste. Lost both until about December time and I'm only really understanding now just how skewed my sense of both are.

Been struggling with a lot of meats tasting a bit grim and a lot of things that are oven cooked now have the same kind of taste to it, a tasteI can't really explain but its kind of like everything tastes like it's been in a paper bag for a while.. Weirdly I was on a bike ride today and noticed that fumes from cars smelt the same. Maybe its almost a default setting for my nose and taste for things it doesn't recognise.

I'm pretty gutted, I don't enjoy Indian food as much as I used to (and I loved it) and I used to adore a fried egg butty in the morning but now they make me gip.


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## Imurg (Jan 31, 2021)

Traminator said:



			My colleague had it sometime towards the end of the year and was talking a couple of weeks ago about his taste.
Normally he's a self-confessed complete wuss with spicy food, eats kormas, nothing hotter etc.   When he had Covid he eventually got to trying raw, hot 🔥 chillies and tasted absolutely nothing.
		
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I guess he wouldn't want his taste to kick back in halfway through.....


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## USER1999 (Jan 31, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I guess he wouldn't want his taste to kick back in halfway through.....

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Do they still have the same effect on the way out?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355897364079407109
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55877514

both my parents have now had the vaccine 

We have also had the message that the daughter must isolate for 10 days as someone on her nursery class has tested positive


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## Old Skier (Jan 31, 2021)

Some sad news on Capt Tom, now in hospital with COVID


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## AmandaJR (Jan 31, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Some sad news on Capt Tom, now in hospital with COVID
		
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Just read that. Very sad. Let's hope he astounds us again and gets well soon.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 31, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Some sad news on Capt Tom, now in hospital with COVID
		
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 Sad news indeed.  I just hope that some of his £30 million finds its way back to his care.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Some sad news on Capt Tom, now in hospital with COVID
		
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Oh No. I guess he will have had his jab by now, let's hope it helps him through.


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## Kellfire (Jan 31, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh No. I guess he will have had his jab by now, let's hope it helps him through.
		
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He hasn’t had it yet because he’s been treated for pneumonia for the last couple of weeks.


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## road2ruin (Jan 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			At the other end of the spectrum we have my grandfather who is 101 years old. Up until June of last year he was one of the 'youngest' 101 year olds that you'll ever meet, he lived in his own home, no real assistance bar my mum checking up on him every day. He was very much a creature of habit, went to get his paper, had a Guinness etc. Due to age he was told to shield and so this disrupted his daily routine, he didn't like this and much to my mum's annoyance he continued a normal life as he didn't want to spend his final months cooped up. After a couple of falls the decision was made that he'd now be better off in a care home and he was moved there in October. It's a nice place, well run so no complaints however it wasn't his home and it threw out his routine. Unfortunately over the last couple of months, due to hospital visits and a Covid outbreak in his home he has spent 6 weeks almost entirely in his room. It's not a large room and he's obviously not allowed to have visitors so he's had almost no movement and as a result he cannot walk and is now wheelchair bound. His mental health has dropped off a cliff and he is now back in the war, we've stopped having phone calls as he doesn't know who we are any more and only sporadically recognises my mum. It's really sad to watch his decline having been to fit and health both mentally and physically for 100 odd years!!
		
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An update on this, the care home have announced an extension to their lockdown until February 28th. That’ll mean that he’ll have been in a room measuring 3x3m for 12 weeks in total I think, essentially solitary confinement. Video calls are now pointless as he doesn’t know where he is and who he is speaking to. It’s amazing and saddening to see how quickly someone can deteriorate from being completely compos mentis to nothing. It’s especially hard on my mum who has been his daily contact for the last 10 years or so. As brutal as this will sound, at this point it would be kinder for both him and her if he were to just give up however he seems intent on seeing this through.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			He hasn’t had it yet because he’s been treated for pneumonia for the last couple of weeks.
		
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🙁


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			An update on this, the care home have announced an extension to their lockdown until February 28th. That’ll mean that he’ll have been in a room measuring 3x3m for 12 weeks in total I think, essentially solitary confinement. Video calls are now pointless as he doesn’t know where he is and who he is speaking to. It’s amazing and saddening to see how quickly someone can deteriorate from being completely compos mentis to nothing. It’s especially hard on my mum who has been his daily contact for the last 10 years or so. As brutal as this will sound, at this point it would be kinder for both him and her if he were to just give up however he seems intent on seeing this through.
		
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Sorry to hear that, it's so sad.


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## chellie (Jan 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			An update on this, the care home have announced an extension to their lockdown until February 28th. That’ll mean that he’ll have been in a room measuring 3x3m for 12 weeks in total I think, essentially solitary confinement. Video calls are now pointless as he doesn’t know where he is and who he is speaking to. It’s amazing and saddening to see how quickly someone can deteriorate from being completely compos mentis to nothing. It’s especially hard on my mum who has been his daily contact for the last 10 years or so. As brutal as this will sound, at this point it would be kinder for both him and her if he were to just give up however he seems intent on seeing this through.
		
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That's awful


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## bobmac (Feb 1, 2021)

Does anyone know why the vaccines are transported in such small bottles... 5ml.
Is it just because of it's shelf life once 'opened'?


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## Old Skier (Feb 1, 2021)

chellie said:



			That's awful

Click to expand...

Look pretty standard, the amount of production and engineering required to upscale could take some time ?


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			An update on this, the care home have announced an extension to their lockdown until February 28th. That’ll mean that he’ll have been in a room measuring 3x3m for 12 weeks in total I think, essentially solitary confinement. Video calls are now pointless as he doesn’t know where he is and who he is speaking to. It’s amazing and saddening to see how quickly someone can deteriorate from being completely compos mentis to nothing. It’s especially hard on my mum who has been his daily contact for the last 10 years or so. As brutal as this will sound, at this point it would be kinder for both him and her if he were to just give up however he seems intent on seeing this through.
		
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As one who had to watch my mother in law decline in a similar manner, I can only offer you my sympathy.


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## karenburton1305 (Feb 1, 2021)

Anyone else at the point now where they're just completely done and bored? I feel like as we move into a new month without the post-Christmas vibes it's just another reminder of how much time we're all losing. Feel so sorry for my kids.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 1, 2021)

karenburton1305 said:



			Anyone else at the point now where they're just completely done and bored? I feel like as we move into a new month without the post-Christmas vibes it's just another reminder of how much time we're all losing. Feel so sorry for my kids.
		
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No, prefer to look at it that we are not out of the woods yet, but we do have some light at the end of the tunnel.

Plus, how much time we are gaining in life, better bored than dead.


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## karenburton1305 (Feb 1, 2021)

Obviosulty i


pauldj42 said:



			No, prefer to look at it that we are not out of the woods yet, but we do have some light at the end of the tunnel.

Plus, how much time we are gaining in life, better bored than dead.
		
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I feel for the younger generation though - with families and jobs the routine isn't much different. For younger people it's the time they should be having fun and being spontaneous. And when so many younger people live alone, it  must be really lonely. I know some of my friends' children are getting really frustrated with all the things they're missing out on that they can't hav back.


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## Piece (Feb 1, 2021)

karenburton1305 said:



			Anyone else at the point now where they're just completely done and bored? I feel like as we move into a new month without the post-Christmas vibes it's just another reminder of how much time we're all losing. Feel so sorry for my kids.
		
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I hear what you are saying, but the sentiment must be about doing your bit to protect the NHS and others. We must do this to enable brighter days ahead. I have kids too and do I feel sorry for them? No, not all, as they understand what they need to do for themselves and for others.

The alternative is to be reckless again and prolong lockdowns way longer.


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## Ethan (Feb 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Does anyone know why the vaccines are transported in such small bottles... 5ml.
Is it just because of it's shelf life once 'opened'?
		
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Partly that, it is also more flexible with smaller bottles and usually less risk of separation of components. Ideally they would be shipped in single use syringes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 1, 2021)

So today

Lowest number of daily cases since rbe middle of December - 18k

Number of daily deaths 400

Hospital admissions dropping

Vaccines given continue to rise

We are beating this and on the way down - 5/6 more weeks of hard work needed


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356281695721414662


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## SatchFan (Feb 1, 2021)

karenburton1305 said:



			Anyone else at the point now where they're just completely done and bored? I feel like as we move into a new month without the post-Christmas vibes it's just another reminder of how much time we're all losing. Feel so sorry for my kids.
		
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My wife and I have a lot of interests so we've quite enjoyed lockdown and only miss a couple of the simple things like going out for a coffee. Our next door neighbours have two kids aged 11 and 8 who are both happy with the current arrangements. For them they said the trick was to keep the kids to a tight daily routine and that seems to have worked pretty well.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 1, 2021)

karenburton1305 said:



			Anyone else at the point now where they're just completely done and bored? I feel like as we move into a new month without the post-Christmas vibes it's just another reminder of how much time we're all losing. Feel so sorry for my kids.
		
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Yep, this lockdown have been the hardest one to deal with personally. My attention span and focus on my work is practically down to zero and in general I don’t get much more than 4 hours of consecutive sleep. I don’t know if it’s connected really, but wouldn’t be very surprised. Feel understimulated but try to combat that with exercising as much as I can. 

Hopefully not for that much longer.


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## Whereditgo (Feb 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Partly that, it is also more flexible with smaller bottles and usually less risk of separation of components. Ideally they would be shipped in single use syringes.
		
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My understanding, and this is the understanding of a non medical guy being told by his Senior Pharmacy Tech Mrs, is that each dose has to be drawn from the bottle through a fresh piercing, to reduce risk of contamination foreign matter being pushed into the vial, the larger the container the more doses, the more times the seal has to be pierced.


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## road2ruin (Feb 1, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			As one who had to watch my mother in law decline in a similar manner, I can only offer you my sympathy.
		
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Thank you BiM. It's really my mum I feel for, she is having to watch this first hand. It's just awful to watch someone who has managed 100yrs 6 months or so of quality living to then spend the last 6 months of their life on their own and retreating into their own little world. Physically he cannot move now as his routine of morning & afternoon wanders have stopped. I think many would have stopped fighting and just given in which to be honest may have been easier (in a selfish way) on the family but he's not like that and his pre-existing physical fitness is getting him through. My mum is convinced he is holding out for one last visit as he doesn't want to die alone without having seen anyone for months. She's in talks with the care home as to whether there is anything that can be done to facilitate this especially as they're locking down until the end of February which will be awful for him.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 1, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yep, this lockdown have been the hardest one to deal with personally. My attention span and focus on my work is practically down to zero and in general I don’t get much more than 4 hours of consecutive sleep. I don’t know if it’s connected really, but wouldn’t be very surprised. Feel understimulated but try to combat that with exercising as much as I can.

Hopefully not for that much longer.
		
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Sounds very similar mate, you are not alone.  Beyond a walk round increasingly familiar streets, there is nothing to go out for.  I'm becoming increasingly insular, little interest in much at all.  I know I'm considerably better off than some in that I still have a job & little money concerns, but day to day motivation is becoming harder to find.


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## Old Skier (Feb 1, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sounds very similar mate, you are not alone.  Beyond a walk round increasingly familiar streets, there is nothing to go out for.  I'm becoming increasingly insular, little interest in much at all.  I know I'm considerably better off than some in that I still have a job & little money concerns, but day to day motivation is becoming harder to find.
		
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Here to help. 

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf


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## Old Skier (Feb 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Here to help. 

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf

Click to expand...

Fto be read in conjunction with

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Rules-of-Handicapping-17-12-20.pdf


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 1, 2021)

karenburton1305 said:



			Obviosulty i


I feel for the younger generation though - with families and jobs the routine isn't much different. For younger people it's the time they should be having fun and being spontaneous. And when so many younger people live alone, it  must be really lonely. I know some of my friends' children are getting really frustrated with all the things they're missing out on that they can't hav back.
		
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Maybe it’ll help them appreciatte who and what they have now and not take it for granted.

It’s not just the young either, have a read of post #15440 and how that family is being affected.

People of all ages are struggling and I don’t believe it’s been easy for anyone, but we must do this to give everyone, and especially the young, a brighter future.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Thank you BiM. It's really my mum I feel for, she is having to watch this first hand. It's just awful to watch someone who has managed 100yrs 6 months or so of quality living to then spend the last 6 months of their life on their own and retreating into their own little world. Physically he cannot move now as his routine of morning & afternoon wanders have stopped. I think many would have stopped fighting and just given in which to be honest may have been easier (in a selfish way) on the family but he's not like that and his pre-existing physical fitness is getting him through. My mum is convinced he is holding out for one last visit as he doesn't want to die alone without having seen anyone for months. She's in talks with the care home as to whether there is anything that can be done to facilitate this especially as they're locking down until the end of February which will be awful for him.
		
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Words genuinely fail me, I hope he gets that visit and your family, especially your mum, find some peace.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 1, 2021)

Apparently there has been door-to-door testing in areas near Woking in Surrey for this South African variant.  The part of Woking they were in - covid would be the least of my worries of what you could catch round there.  If you wanted to film a post-apocalyptic film with resident zombies, that would be your spot.


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			An update on this, the care home have announced an extension to their lockdown until February 28th. That’ll mean that he’ll have been in a room measuring 3x3m for 12 weeks in total I think, essentially solitary confinement. Video calls are now pointless as he doesn’t know where he is and who he is speaking to. It’s amazing and saddening to see how quickly someone can deteriorate from being completely compos mentis to nothing. It’s especially hard on my mum who has been his daily contact for the last 10 years or so. As brutal as this will sound, at this point it would be kinder for both him and her if he were to just give up however he seems intent on seeing this through.
		
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 I really have a lot of sympathy for you r2r as this is what I have just been through with my Dad. I saw my dad the week before lockdown 1 and though it has always been difficult seeing him struggle with dementia you could genuinely see him lift when he had visitors (his wife visited him everyday and always had him out of bed etc). Unfortunately the stroke that put him in there also made him blind so video calls were not really of any benefit to him although we all tried. He was left in his bed almost 24/7 (don't get me started on the level care these homes provide) and the deterioration was marked when his wife eventually got see him in October. Patients in those homes need constant stimulation and being cut off from the outside world must be bewildering for them. It feels a horrible thing to say but I had hoped that something would finish my dad to put him out of the misery and it did. having to deal with the grief now is better than seeing a proud man be humbled like that (my dad hadn't been to hospital once in 77 years until he decided to see the doc because he thought 4 days of circuit training and the gym may too much at his age!!).
I really feel for you, your mum and the rest of your family and I'm sure you'll have lots of fantastic memories to fall back on when you need to.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I really have a lot of sympathy for you r2r as this is what I have just been through with my Dad. I saw my dad the week before lockdown 1 and though it has always been difficult seeing him struggle with dementia you could genuinely see him lift when he had visitors (his wife visited him everyday and always had him out of bed etc). Unfortunately the stroke that put him in there also made him blind so video calls were not really of any benefit to him although we all tried. He was left in his bed almost 24/7 (don't get me started on the level care these homes provide) and the deterioration was marked when his wife eventually got see him in October. Patients in those homes need constant stimulation and being cut off from the outside world must be bewildering for them. It feels a horrible thing to say but I had hoped that something would finish my dad to put him out of the misery and it did. having to deal with the grief now is better than seeing a proud man be humbled like that (my dad hadn't been to hospital once in 77 years until he decided to see the doc because he thought 4 days of circuit training and the gym may too much at his age!!).
I really feel for you, your mum and the rest of your family and I'm sure you'll have lots of fantastic memories to fall back on when you need to.
		
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Really feel for you and can relate to a lot you have said. Sometimes words are no comfort. Thoughts with you me man.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 2, 2021)

I'm getting slightly worried at how much noise they are making over this south african variant, just praying they havent found its resistant to the vaccine


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## MegaSteve (Feb 2, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm getting slightly worried ar hiw much noise they are making over this south african variant, just praying they havent found its resistant to the vaccine
		
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^This...

And, that it has been deemed necessary to do door to door testing...


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I really have a lot of sympathy for you r2r as this is what I have just been through with my Dad. I saw my dad the week before lockdown 1 and though it has always been difficult seeing him struggle with dementia you could genuinely see him lift when he had visitors (his wife visited him everyday and always had him out of bed etc). Unfortunately the stroke that put him in there also made him blind so video calls were not really of any benefit to him although we all tried. He was left in his bed almost 24/7 (don't get me started on the level care these homes provide) and the deterioration was marked when his wife eventually got see him in October. Patients in those homes need constant stimulation and being cut off from the outside world must be bewildering for them. It feels a horrible thing to say but I had hoped that something would finish my dad to put him out of the misery and it did. having to deal with the grief now is better than seeing a proud man be humbled like that (my dad hadn't been to hospital once in 77 years until he decided to see the doc because he thought 4 days of circuit training and the gym may too much at his age!!).
I really feel for you, your mum and the rest of your family and I'm sure you'll have lots of fantastic memories to fall back on when you need to.
		
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Sorry to hear about your Dad, very similar situation. As harsh as it sounds the family are hoping, as you did, that he might go to sleep one evening and that'd be it rather than the present battle.


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm getting slightly worried at how much noise they are making over this south african variant, just praying they havent found its resistant to the vaccine
		
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Hypothetic question, or at least I hope it is, what do you think the reaction would be amongst the population if the SA variant (or an as yet unknown one) was found to be resistant to the vaccine? I'm thinking about the reaction to a reset in terms of timelines of lockdowns etc if it were the worst case and we had to get a working vaccine. I know we wouldn't necessarily be back at square one as I assume we could use the present vaccine and adapt it however would also assume we'd need to go through the testing phase again etc. We are already at a point where fatigue is setting in and if the Government announced that the present restrictions might now be in place for another 4,5 or 6 months whilst the vaccine was redeveloped would people actually be able to buy in?

Again, everything I've read so far suggests that the present vaccine is effective so hopefully we don't have to worry too much at the moment.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Hypothetic question, or at least I hope it is, what do you think the reaction would be amongst the population if the SA variant (or an as yet unknown one) was found to be resistant to the vaccine? I'm thinking about the reaction to a reset in terms of timelines of lockdowns etc if it were the worst case and we had to get a working vaccine. I know we wouldn't necessarily be back at square one as I assume we could use the present vaccine and adapt it however would also assume we'd need to go through the testing phase again etc. We are already at a point where fatigue is setting in and if the Government announced that the *present restrictions might now be in place for another 4,5 or 6 months whilst the vaccine was redeveloped would people actually be able to buy in?*

Again, everything I've read so far suggests that the present vaccine is effective so hopefully we don't have to worry too much at the moment.
		
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Let's just hope that your question stays hypothetic. There's no way a majority of the population would even consider staying at home until August. It just simply isn't, no matter what is right or wrong.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sorry to hear about your Dad, very similar situation. As harsh as it sounds the family are hoping, as you did, that he might go to sleep one evening and that'd be it rather than the present battle.
		
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When I initially said there's so much I could relate to, it was exactly this. FIL had once said he dont want to live how he is living now. He just wants to go to sleep and not wake up. Unfortunately he is not getting  his way. Yesterday can only be best described as an emotional boxing match.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 2, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			^This...

And, that it has been deemed necessary to do door to door testing...
		
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My frustration is that we are in lockdown, the country was open to travel, and now its here. And thats putting it nicely. 🤥


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## SaintHacker (Feb 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Hypothetic question, or at least I hope it is, what do you think the reaction would be amongst the population if the SA variant (or an as yet unknown one) was found to be resistant to the vaccine? I'm thinking about the reaction to a reset in terms of timelines of lockdowns etc if it were the worst case and we had to get a working vaccine. I know we wouldn't necessarily be back at square one as I assume we could use the present vaccine and adapt it however would also assume we'd need to go through the testing phase again etc. We are already at a point where fatigue is setting in and if the Government announced that the present restrictions might now be in place for another 4,5 or 6 months whilst the vaccine was redeveloped would people actually be able to buy in?

Again, everything I've read so far suggests that the present vaccine is effective so hopefully we don't have to worry too much at the moment.
		
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Personally,  and i hope im wrong, but i think there would be a mass ignorance of any restrictions. People would basically say enough is enough were getting on with it whether the powers that be like it or not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2021)

They have already stated that the vaccine works against all variants - some may not be a “potent” , it’s the same with the Kent variant. 

The good thing this time is they are acting quickly with the local intense testing to control it 

Also the PMs word yesterday were very relevant in regards restrictions 

He was stating that the virus appears to be at national levels now ( ie no area is spiking more than others ) so when restrictions are eased it looks like it will be at national level as opposed to regional - that is potentially good news unless they look at london which does have a slightly high level of infection. 

But the good news is that the seven day averages is now at a level that was seen in November 



and that trend is reflected globally as well 👍
If the trend stays the same in 3 weeks we will be at levels not seen since August/September 

Also in regards the vaccine there is now hope that every adult will be offered one by May


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## DRW (Feb 2, 2021)

Some details on vaccines and variants here(hopefully direct link works?) :-

Eric Topol (@EricTopol) / Twitter

If you have 15 minutes a day and fancy a read, I would recommend reading these three peoples twitter accounts, some great stuff posted and knowledge about the viruses and vaccines(some political/USA stuff which I ignore) but the knowledge and depth of knowledge they give freely to twitter, I am grateful for :-

Prof Francois Balloux (@BallouxFrancois) / Twitter
Eric Topol (@EricTopol) / Twitter
Florian Krammer (@florian_krammer) / Twitter


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## User62651 (Feb 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Hypothetic question, or at least I hope it is, what do you think the reaction would be amongst the population if the SA variant (or an as yet unknown one) was found to be resistant to the vaccine? I'm thinking about the reaction to a reset in terms of timelines of lockdowns etc if it were the worst case and we had to get a working vaccine. I know we wouldn't necessarily be back at square one as I assume we could use the present vaccine and adapt it however would also assume we'd need to go through the testing phase again etc. We are already at a point where fatigue is setting in and if the Government announced that the present restrictions might now be in place for another 4,5 or 6 months whilst the vaccine was redeveloped would people actually be able to buy in?

Again, everything I've read so far suggests that the present vaccine is effective so hopefully we don't have to worry too much at the moment.
		
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I think 75% would do what they're aksed and comply, 15% would generally comply with minor lapses and 10% would ignore completely and try to circumvent. In other words where we are now. We're getting conditioned to restrictions now, after a year how many are still optimistic it's going to play out as we hope or are led to believe? Constant moving goalposts.
The recently introduced airport/quarantine restrictions on international arrivals are only for red zone countries I believe, should be all countries.
For UK Authorities to be actively hunting carriers of the SA variant rather than just talking about doing it, is of concern.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2021)

karenburton1305 said:



			Anyone else at the point now where they're just completely done and bored? I feel like as we move into a new month without the post-Christmas vibes it's just another reminder of how much time we're all losing. Feel so sorry for my kids.
		
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We often hear that we should embrace the wartime 'Blitz Spirit' through this time.  But as that was more to do with trying to keep positive and firm in our resolve as we 'Keep on Carrying On', I think a rather better thing to embrace is the pragmatism of Tommy Atkins in the WW1 trenches.

Tommy was bored, wet, miserable and fearful of what might happen - of dying - and generally just cheesed off with crouching about in the mud of the trenches - penned in on both sides by trench walls only feet apart and unable to see any further ahead than a handful of short yards to the next bend in the trench.

But Tommy knew that if he just said 'aw sod it - I am completely fed up with this - I am bored of this life - of what I am ordered to do' and if he stuck his head above the parapet - then he knew that it was quite possible that he would take a bullet through the head.

And so with miserable pragmatism he focussed on doing what he knew he had to do - what he was being told to do - to see the day through - and when things were tough he focussed on just seeing the next hour through.  And his hope was that he knew that eventually it would end - and all being well he'd be there are the end - able to climb out of the trench - stand on a hill and look far into the distance for as long as he wished - to watch the sun rise and set on the day.  As we all can - if we keep our head down.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			My frustration is that we are in lockdown, the country was open to travel, and now its here. And thats putting it nicely. 🤥
		
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Exactly were an island and could have prevented this if we wanted to!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2021)

Pal of my daughter has been in South Africa with her b/friend (both 25yrs old) since well before Christmas - her dad lives in Cape Town - they are British.  She is planning to return to UK in coming week or so - and tells my daughter that she intends to isolate (with her b/f) in their flat in London - a flat they share with another three friends.  Hmmm...knowing daughter's friend as I do, I suspect that their definition of 'isolating' will be flexible - and will include going out to buy essentials...


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pal of my daughter has been in South Africa with her b/friend (both 25yrs old) since well before Christmas - her dad lives in Cape Town - they are British.  She is planning to return to UK in coming week or so - and tells my daughter that she intends to isolate (with her b/f) in their flat in London - a flat they share with another three friends.  Hmmm...knowing daughter's friend as I do, I suspect that their definition of 'isolating' will be flexible - and will include going out to buy essentials...

Click to expand...

If there is the remotest chance the SA variant is immune to the vaccine.
Nobody who has been in SA should be allowed into the country.
That should have happened as soon as it was identified.
For the reasons you said.


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## drdel (Feb 2, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Exactly were an island and could have prevented this if we wanted to!
		
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 Unrealistic for the UK as an international hub to close borders completely. Virus was already here in beginning of 2020 before any thought's of lockdown etc. were mooted.

Its a pandemic.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pal of my daughter has been in South Africa with her b/friend (both 25yrs old) since well before Christmas - her dad lives in Cape Town - they are British.  She is planning to return to UK in coming week or so - and tells my daughter that she intends to isolate (with her b/f) in their flat in London - a flat they share with another three friends.  Hmmm...knowing daughter's friend as I do, I suspect that their definition of 'isolating' will be flexible - and will include going out to buy essentials...

Click to expand...

Think they migjt have a shock then, isnt SA on the hotel quarantine list?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 2, 2021)

drdel said:



			Unrealistic for the UK as an international hub to close borders completely. Virus was already here in beginning of 2020 before any thought's of lockdown etc. were mooted.

Its a pandemic.
		
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It’s not unrealistic!
That’s the problem imo it hasn’t been treated as a global pandemic .
Let everyone come here or pass through.
That’s why our death rate is so high.
It could have been stopped ,but the will wasn’t there.
It’s one of the biggest mistakes we have made.


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## drdel (Feb 2, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s not unrealistic!
That’s the problem imo it hasn’t been treated as a global pandemic .
Let everyone come here or pass through.
That’s why our death rate is so high.
It could have been stopped ,but the will wasn’t there.
It’s one of the biggest mistakes we have made.
		
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You are mixing timings and employing hindsight clarity.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Hypothetic question, or at least I hope it is, what do you think the reaction would be amongst the population if the SA variant (or an as yet unknown one) was found to be resistant to the vaccine? I'm thinking about the reaction to a reset in terms of timelines of lockdowns etc if it were the worst case and we had to get a working vaccine. I know we wouldn't necessarily be back at square one as I assume we could use the present vaccine and adapt it however would also assume we'd need to go through the testing phase again etc. We are already at a point where fatigue is setting in and if the Government announced that the present restrictions might now be in place for another 4,5 or 6 months whilst the vaccine was redeveloped would people actually be able to buy in?

Again, everything I've read so far suggests that the present vaccine is effective so hopefully we don't have to worry too much at the moment.
		
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It is possible that the SA variant is partly resistant to the vaccine. But it is probably still effective in preventing Covid in some, probably most people, and it is also possible/likely that there is an effect on severity on some or all of the rest. So maybe the effect is more that some people don't escape entirely but get away with a milder disease. If so, that is still a result and we bang on with vaccinating as many people as we can as fast as we can.

The longer term plan depends on whether we can amend the genetic code placed inside the vaccine so that a more effective response is offered and roll that out as second vaccs or boosters. This is likely to be the way this goes, like firmware updates which build on existing features and add some more stuff. Technically, updating the code is easy and fast, so this should work, but you have to figure out what you want to mount an immune response against and deal with any evolutionary tricks the virus is using. 

Over time, as with the flu, we will probably build up a cumulative immune response to Covid, so that although your immune system hasn't seen every strain, it begins to get its eye in for a wrong 'un when it sees one. That is part of the reason that most of us don't get flu every season even if we haven't had the vacc.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 2, 2021)

drdel said:



			You are mixing timings and employing hindsight clarity.
		
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I was talking about the SA variant .
We have had plenty of time to sort it out.
No hindsight at all.


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## User62651 (Feb 2, 2021)

drdel said:



*Unrealistic for the UK as an international hub to close borders completely*. Virus was already here in beginning of 2020 before any thought's of lockdown etc. were mooted.

Its a pandemic.
		
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Stop excusing 1000's of needless deaths.
Didn't need to close completely - just enact quarantining and have a working NHS (not £22 billion to private sector) test and trace system. Did neither. Was clear back in Feb/Mar 2020 govt intentions now trying to redact/gaslight through complicit media and some good success with vaccines rollout.
Japan, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand all islands and have very low numbers of deaths due to acting early and setting controls we ignored. Loads of other countries that are not islands did/doing way better than UK too.
If we are to learn from this we need to accept where we went badly wrong where others got it right.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

drdel said:



			Unrealistic for the UK as an international hub to close borders completely. Virus was already here in beginning of 2020 before any thought's of lockdown etc. were mooted.

Its a pandemic.
		
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I think it is unlikely to be very effective now. The virus is endemic in the UK and the real problem is virus circulating around the UK rather than coming in.

It was possible back last Feb/early March, though, to pull up the drawbridge, and although it would have been painful, it would very likely have significantly reduced the magnitude of the problems that followed. And it seems likely the UK re-exported some virus elsewhere and fed the whole bonfire, so it might have reduced problems elsewhere too, some of which recirculated back to us.

I think I said some time ago that public health 101 for pandemics is 1. Stop it getting in, 2. Stop it moving around. Unfortunately these operate in sequence, and if you get 1 right, 2 is much easier, as NZ has shown. However, if you miss 1 when it matters, too late to do it later with much effect. Horses, stable doors.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

Just to expand briefly on this issue of virus evolution. The virus is not a sentient organism, it is basically a bot with a genetic factory. It replicates fast, and errors occur in that creating slight variations in the virus. This is all random, but the variants that do better, i.e. have an evolutionary advantage, for example bind to receptors in hosts better, survive better and in contrast those that have a variant which reduces their ability to bind or replicate die out. Therefore the virus tends to get "better" as the variants which improve its ability to spread are preferentially selected. On the other hand, it needs to spread, so variants that kill people fast stop spread and tend to die out. 

The emergence of new variants is dependent therefore on at the amount of virus is around, since it is a random process and the more replication that is taking place, the more likely new variants will emerge. Stopping the virus everywhere is important to stop new variants, so it isn't just in those postcodes that Matt Hancock listed that we need to be careful. The next variant will arise someplace else. Nowhere is to "blame" for new variants except insofar as they had too much virus circulating and they were thereof allowing the virus to roll the evolution dice too many times.


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Think they migjt have a shock then, isnt SA on the hotel quarantine list?
		
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The hotel quarantine doesn't start until the 15th February, I can only assume that the powers that be have got an agreement with the virus to keep things calm with no infections until that point.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The hotel quarantine doesn't start until the 15th February, I can only assume that the powers that be have got an agreement with the virus to keep things calm with no infections until that point.
		
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Yes everything is far to slow ,that’s why we’re playing catch up all the time.
Nobody should come in from SA until these hotels are ready.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 2, 2021)

drdel said:



			Unrealistic for the UK as an international hub to close borders completely. Virus was already here in beginning of 2020 before any thought's of lockdown etc. were mooted.

Its a pandemic.
		
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I don’t think they need to be closed entirely, there has to be certain exemptions re transport of medicines etc. What did me the other day was a women who had arrived from Brazil via stuggart. She was asked her thoughts about doing isolation. She said “ I would sooner not, it would be an inconvenience“. I don’t even know where to start for a rant. It has worked elsewhere, so why not here. If Sage have advised the Uk to do it,Why have we not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The hotel quarantine doesn't start until the 15th February, I can only assume that the powers that be have got an agreement with the virus to keep things calm with no infections until that point.
		
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I am pretty certain that they'll be home by the 15th Feb...and quite possibly bringing more virus and/or variants with them...They don't _need _to come back to the UK - my daughter tells me that they could continue do their job from Cape Town - as they have been doing through January.  They just want to come home - as they've been away for quite a while now.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 2, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes everything is far to slow ,that’s why we’re playing catch up all the time.
Nobody should come in from SA until these hotels are ready.
		
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In hindsight we are putting people in hotels for isolation in 2 weeks time 🤔😣 way To slow again.


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## Old Skier (Feb 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am pretty certain that they'll be home by the 15th Feb...and quite possibly bringing more virus and/or variants with them...They don't _need _to come back to the UK - my daughter tells me that they could continue do their job from Cape Town - as they have been doing through January.  They just want to come home - as they've been away for quite a while now.
		
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Hopefully your daughter will do the right thing if they do “isolate” with others and go out and about.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I don’t think they need to be closed entirely, there has to be certain exemptions re transport of medicines etc. What did me the other day was a women who had arrived from Brazil via stuggart. She was asked her thoughts about doing isolation. She said “ I would sooner not, it would be an inconvenience“. I don’t even know where to start for a rant. It has worked elsewhere, so why not here. If Sage have advised the Uk to do it,Why have we not.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they should have started in last March and maybe people around then shouldn’t have continued to get off to far away destinations for some hot sun 


In other news 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356581395536244738


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## AmandaJR (Feb 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Just to expand briefly on this issue of virus evolution. The virus is not a sentient organism, it is basically a bot with a genetic factory. It replicates fast, and errors occur in that creating slight variations in the virus. *This is all random*, but the variants that do better, i.e. have an evolutionary advantage, for example bind to receptors in hosts better, survive better and in contrast those that have a variant which reduces their ability to bind or replicate die out. Therefore the virus tends to get "better" as the variants which improve its ability to spread are preferentially selected. On the other hand, it needs to spread, so variants that kill people fast stop spread and tend to die out.

The emergence of new variants is dependent therefore on at the amount of virus is around, since it is a random process and the more replication that is taking place, the more likely new variants will emerge. Stopping the virus everywhere is important to stop new variants, so it isn't just in those postcodes that Matt Hancock listed that we need to be careful. The next variant will arise someplace else. Nowhere is to "blame" for new variants except insofar as they had too much virus circulating and they were thereof allowing the virus to roll the evolution dice too many times.
		
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I like that and much prefer to think that it's randomly getting better at trying to kill us rather than it's some sort of malevolent force thwarting us at every turn!


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe they should have started in last March and maybe people around then shouldn’t have continued to get off to far away destinations for some hot sun


In other news


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356581395536244738

Click to expand...

We knew this, but unfortunately other numbers were kicked around that sounded like they were describing the same thing, but weren't. There is a massive difference between the efficacy over the first 3 weeks (around 52%) and the efficacy at 3 weeks (around 90%).



AmandaJR said:



			I like that and much prefer to think that it's randomly getting better at trying to kill us rather than it's some sort of malevolent force thwarting us at every turn!
		
Click to expand...

Some of the media coverage would have you think it was plotting fiendish ways to better attack. It isn't, it is basically all replication errors most of which make no practical difference, but some conferring natural advantages or disadvantages.

There is some interesting data around that looks at coronaviruses in general, and notes that there is a trade off between transmissibility and lethality. From highest to lowest lethality, MERS is the worst with 30-40% death rate, but quite hard to transmit from person to person, SARS is next, 10-20% death rate, easier to transmit than MERS but modest ability to spread, Covid 1-2% death rate and fairly easy to spread, then the 4 common cold coronaviruses, very low death rate and very high transmissibility. There is a view that the number of viable mutations for Covid is limited because it cannot mutate the part that binds to the human ACE2 receptor too much or it will lose the ability to bind at all.


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## GB72 (Feb 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			We knew this, but unfortunately other numbers were kicked around that sounded like they were describing the same thing, but weren't. There is a massive difference between the efficacy over the first 3 weeks (around 52%) and the efficacy at 3 weeks (around 90%).



Some of the media coverage would have you think it was plotting fiendish ways to better attack. It isn't, it is basically all replication errors most of which make no practical difference, but some conferring natural advantages or disadvantages.

There is some interesting data around that looks at coronaviruses in general, and notes that there is a trade off between transmissibility and lethality. From highest to lowest lethality, MERS is the worst with 30-40% death rate, but quite hard to transmit from person to person, SARS is next, 10-20% death rate, easier to transmit than MERS but modest ability to spread, Covid 1-2% death rate and fairly easy to spread, then the 4 common cold coronaviruses, very low death rate and very high transmissibility. There is a view that the number of viable mutations for Covid is limited because it cannot mutate the part that binds to the human ACE2 receptor too much or it will lose the ability to bind at all.
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest, is there the possibility that there are and have been less transmissible strains of the covid or ones with lesser symptoms that have come about and died out during the pandemic or have simply passed through undetected.


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## theoneandonly (Feb 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I don’t think they need to be closed entirely, *there has to be certain exemptions* re transport of medicines etc. What did me the other day was a women who had arrived from Brazil via stuggart. She was asked her thoughts about doing isolation. She said “ I would sooner not, it would be an inconvenience“. I don’t even know where to start for a rant. It has worked elsewhere, so why not here. If Sage have advised the Uk to do it,Why have we not.
		
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Yes, we could exempt Mexico eh?


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, is there the possibility that there are and have been less transmissible strains of the covid or ones with lesser symptoms that have come about and died out during the pandemic or have simply passed through undetected.
		
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Definitely. Some of the mutations render the coronavirus less transmissible or even less viable, and the strains change. That is the nature of these things. There will be dozens, hundreds, thousands of new variations and some of the old one that disappeared will come back, like someone winning the lottery twice.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I don’t think they need to be closed entirely, there has to be certain exemptions re transport of medicines etc. What did me the other day was a women who had arrived from Brazil via stuggart. She was asked her thoughts about doing isolation. She said “ I would sooner not, it would be an inconvenience“. I don’t even know where to start for a rant. It has worked elsewhere, so why not here. If Sage have advised the Uk to do it,Why have we not.
		
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Yes that’s the problem imo.
Freight is needed.
But random people flying into the country are “ asked to quarantine “
Very few do it .
Where does essential travel come into it.
We are to lax.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I don’t think they need to be closed entirely, there has to be certain exemptions re transport of medicines etc. What did me the other day was a women who had arrived from Brazil via stuggart. She was asked her thoughts about doing isolation. She said “ I would sooner not, it would be an inconvenience“. I don’t even know where to start for a rant. It has worked elsewhere, so why not here. If Sage have advised the Uk to do it,Why have we not.
		
Click to expand...

If she arrived from Brazil, whether through Stuttgart or not, since Jan 16th, then she arrived illegally and should be reported to the police. Brazil is a 'red list' country. 

If she had spent at least 10 days in Stuttgart or another non-red list country before coming here, she still needs to self-isolate for 10 days, unless she is doing one of the list of exempt jobs, in which case she needed to take a test before she arrived. 

It is people like her who keep this cursed pandemic going, and she should not be allowed to do so. If she has broken the rules, dob in her. I would.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 2, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes that’s the problem imo.
Freight is needed.
But random people flying into the country are “ asked to quarantine “
Very few do it .
Where does essential travel come into it.
We are to lax.
		
Click to expand...

Been DIYing for Missis T and as you do you have moments of thought. Ave not followed most of this Covid thread but Ave read most of Ethans posts. Most of them are based on fact and they may not be what folk want to hear or read but it is what it is. We on here are probably more informed re the Covid through Ethans posts. Than many other forums or social platforms. They are as good as Sharons and Darrens on Facebook ( joke). But yet we still have doubters re locking down country either now or months ago, national lockdowns, who is Priority for vaccines etc etc. 
Re locking down the country some think it wouldn’t or couldn’t do anything. What I do think is that if we have not even tried it how do we know.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If she arrived from Brazil, whether through Stuttgart or not, since Jan 16th, then she arrived illegally and should be reported to the police. Brazil is a 'red list' country.

If she had spent at least 10 days in Stuttgart or another non-red list country before coming here, she still needs to self-isolate for 10 days, unless she is doing one of the list of exempt jobs, in which case she needed to take a test before she arrived.

It is people like her who keep this cursed pandemic going, and she should not be allowed to do so. If she has broken the rules, dob in her. I would.
		
Click to expand...

The news story on the BBC set me off on a rant, the very next story was about the oxygen shortage in Brazil in fighting this Covid.


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2021)

The last week has been good. Better than good. Can’t quite put my finger on why but it just feels better.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 2, 2021)

Captainron said:



			The last week has been good. Better than good. Can’t quite put my finger on why but it just feels better.
		
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I'm sure the honeymoon feeling of that new job will wear off soon.


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2021)

Captainron said:



			The last week has been good. Better than good. Can’t quite put my finger on why but it just feels better.
		
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Daylight hours increasing by 4 mins per day


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Hopefully your daughter will do the right thing if they do “isolate” with others and go out and about.
		
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Well they are in London and she lives 35miles away.  She won't see what they are up to and is very diligent in her sticking to the rules - keeping her own side of the street clean.  

I do wish they'd be required to isolate in government organised accommodation for the two weeks.  I am afraid her friend most probably just can't be trusted to do what is required of her off her own back.  I hope I am wrong and that her friends demand compliance by her and her b/f.


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## hovis (Feb 2, 2021)

Sir Tom has sadly passed.  What a shame


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2021)

Captainron said:



			The last week has been good. Better than good. Can’t quite put my finger on why but it just feels better.
		
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It certainly feels like we have turned the tide and the positive news keeps coming each day - those lights at the end of the tunnel are now very bright 

the one awful news is the passing of Capt Tom 😢


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2021)

Oh dear.  Sir Tom...


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## Imurg (Feb 2, 2021)

hovis said:



			Sir Tom has sadly passed.  What a shame
		
Click to expand...

I only know of him but this pains me as much as losing family


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## Old Skier (Feb 2, 2021)

hovis said:



			Sir Tom has sadly passed.  What a shame
		
Click to expand...

Sad day, an inspiration to many FN sir.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

Looked ominous when they announced he was in hospital only a couple of weeks after he went in.


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2021)

He did have a good holiday in Barbados over Christmas with the family before he died.

He had a great knock. 100 is crazy old


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## Captainron (Feb 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Daylight hours increasing by 4 mins per day
		
Click to expand...

Can’t we just knock the clocks forward by an hour now?


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Can’t we just knock the clocks forward by an hour now?
		
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Stonehenge need more notice to move the stones


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356632557325062146
also daily cases continue to drop - 16k today - this time last week it was 25k


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 2, 2021)

hovis said:



			Sir Tom has sadly passed.  What a shame
		
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Yes a shame .
But a very good innings and he did achieve a lot.
He should be remembered with pride.


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## Ethan (Feb 2, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356632557325062146
also daily cases continue to drop - 16k today - this time last week it was 25k
		
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I am a bit suspicious of any 100% claim for a medical intervention, but it is certainly true that the reduction in hospitalisations/severe Covid is a wrongly somewhat overlooked benefit.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2021)

hovis said:



			Sir Tom has sadly passed.  What a shame
		
Click to expand...

He was a national beacon of what's good in people and a focal point of cheer in these sad times. Rip Sir Tom.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 2, 2021)

RIP Sir Tom


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2021)

Getting my jab on Friday 👍


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Getting my jab on Friday 👍
		
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There’s some old knackers on here


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There’s some old knackers on here 

Click to expand...

Aye.  When did you get yours 😉


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Aye.  When did you get yours 😉
		
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As we are still struggling to get supplies for our over 80’s I think us 60’s will be lucky if we see a needle before May/June if teachers unions get their way. It will be when it will be but I think the post code lottery is not a great idea.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As we are still struggling to get supplies for our over 80’s I think us 60’s will be lucky if we see a needle before May/June if teachers unions get their way. It will be when it will be but I think the post code lottery is not a great idea.
		
Click to expand...

I note that that could perhaps equally have read '...if teachers get their way'.  

I'm also over 60 and I will happily put up with whatever short delay in my getting vaccinated is introduced by vaccinating all teachers before me.  After all - with the way the vaccination programme is going that delay is only likely to be a matter of days rather than weeks.


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## chellie (Feb 3, 2021)

Given how many children a lot of teachers come in contact with daily when they are back in the workplace they should be allowed to be vaccinated. My daughter can be in contact with 200 in a week and obviously isn't the only one. She spent each day in college wondering if she was going to catch covid as her school class bubbles had infections and had to isolate. Yellow barrier tape stuck on the floor which a student couldn't cross apparently works well to protect from her catching covid


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I note that that could perhaps equally have read '...if teachers get their way'.
		
Click to expand...

I have only heard unions bleat about it, I only know a handful of teachers and lecturers and the appear to be quite happy to take their turn so I'm quite happy to stick with what I say.

I am happy to wait my turn and have never said any different but it is annoying when the stewarding team I am a member of turn up for a days work only to be told on arrival that the vaccine promised never arrived. Contacting disappointed 80+ is not a great task.


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2021)

So the AZ vaccine seems to provide good efficacy and inhibits transmission. 

Is there any reason to think that the Pfizer jab will not do the same?


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As we are still struggling to get supplies for our over 80’s I think us 60’s will be lucky if we see a needle before May/June if teachers unions get their way. It will be when it will be but I think the post code lottery is not a great idea.
		
Click to expand...

My daughters school has closed today because so many of the staff have the virus.
Not just teachers but all the adult staff!!
If we want kids in school so parents can go to work ,we need to vaccinate the staff


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2021)

drdel said:



			So the AZ vaccine seems to provide good efficacy and inhibits transmission.

Is there any reason to think that the Pfizer jab will not do the same?
		
Click to expand...

None at all, may do it even better, and hardly anybody in the clinical community ever thought otherwise. There was just no direct evidence to show it, and HMG were a big anxious about anybody considering themselves "safe" and stopping social distancing, much like the immune certificates mooted last year.

The vaccine majorly reduces replication of the virus, it must reduce the risk of transmission.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As we are still struggling to get supplies for our over 80’s I think us 60’s will be lucky if we see a needle before May/June if teachers unions get their way. It will be when it will be but I think the post code lottery is not a great idea.
		
Click to expand...

Not such an 'old skier' then, just a whippersnapper.  Anyhow all that Brasso and Blanco you Pongo's took in through your pores will probably make most viruses keep away 😀


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Not such an 'old skier' then, just a whippersnapper.  Anyhow all that Brasso and Blanco you Pongo's took in through your pores will probably make most viruses keep away 😀
		
Click to expand...

Surely the amount of alcohol you wafu’s consumed would make your bodies immune to all.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 3, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughters school has closed today because so many of the staff have the virus.
Not just teachers but all the adult staff!!
If we want kids in school so parents can go to work ,we need to vaccinate the staff
		
Click to expand...

Daughter has just told Missis T that grandson had told the teacher he has had a Covid test and is waiting for results. The head teacher rang daughter and asked if that was the case. He was assured that was not the case at all, much to the relief of the school. He is 8 bless him.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 3, 2021)

Just an update from my home country. Several cases being reported now of care home bosses, people in managerial roles within council social- and health services and board members at one of the biggest hospitals who've circumvented the vaccination que and vaccinated themselves + their families.


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## Old Skier (Feb 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Not such an 'old skier' then, just a whippersnapper.  Anyhow all that Brasso and Blanco you Pongo's took in through your pores will probably make most viruses keep away 😀
		
Click to expand...

Luckly bull and poo weren’t in our vocabulary mind you the grease, oil and fuel in our veins is most probably just as effective.


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## larmen (Feb 3, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughters school has closed today because so many of the staff have the virus.
Not just teachers but all the adult staff!!
If we want kids in school so parents can go to work ,we need to vaccinate the staff
		
Click to expand...

When I got my jab last Sunday there was a group of bus drivers there from the droid just down the road. It seems like key worker groups are being invited? If yes, rightfully so in my opinion.


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2021)

larmen said:



			When I got my jab last Sunday there was a group of bus drivers there from the droid just down the road. It seems like key worker groups are being invited? If yes, rightfully so in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Not in the prioritisation categories in England. Still by age, and extremely vulnerable people.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 3, 2021)

"The virus's efforts to evade the vaccine"...just stated by the BBC health correspondent. I shouted at the TV and quoted @Ethan


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## Mudball (Feb 3, 2021)

Meanwhile... the case of the virus starting to disappear in India..   As they say in India, most Chinese made things are cheap and dont last much in India... the virus is proving to be just that...

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...ias-plummeting-covid-19-cases?t=1612374701738 

Makes you wonder


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## SaintHacker (Feb 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not in the prioritisation categories in England. Still by age, and extremely vulnerable people.
		
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Bus drivers on the Isle of Wight have been offered a jab, and the company is working at getting the mainland drivers done asap. Also my wife (early years practitioner) has been told she will get it in the next two weeks due to the local authority being given a stock of vaccines to use where they see fit and her workplace being one of the chosen ones.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357020969806819330

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357025162349182977

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357025177780027392
Added the slides - over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population done , at this rate we will be done June - edited due to poor English 😁

National Tiers to start

Someone posted a “potential” example of the road map that will be announced on 22nd Feb if the current trend continues

22nd Feb - confirm schools to be open and relaxing of outdoor exercise and meetings

8th March - Schools Open - country into Tier 3 restrictions

5th April - Country into Tier 2

1st May - Tiers removed but still social distancing measures , masks etc

1st June - no restrictions


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## SaintHacker (Feb 3, 2021)

That would be amazing, and no reason why not, after all it virtually disappeared last summer without a vaccine. Guess the issue will be with people coming in from abroad so can see the quarantine hotel thing being in place for a while


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## AmandaJR (Feb 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357020969806819330
National Tiers to start

Someone posted a “potential” example of the road map that will be announced on 22nd Feb if the current trend continues

22nd Feb - confirm schools to be open and relaxing of outdoor exercise and meetings

8th March - Schools Open - country into Tier 3 restrictions

5th April - Country into Tier 2

1st May - Tiers removed but still social distancing measures , masks etc

1st June - no restrictions
		
Click to expand...

Oh I hope so. That's a timeline which would be fine with me...just to meet a pal outside for a walk would be lovely (ie the "essential" and "local" elements relaxed). If golf opened all the merrier.


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## chellie (Feb 3, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Oh I hope so. That's a timeline which would be fine with me...just to meet a pal outside for a walk would be lovely (ie the "essential" and "local" elements relaxed). If golf opened all the merrier.
		
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You can do that now though for your exercise.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 3, 2021)

chellie said:



			You can do that now though for your exercise.
		
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It's the stay local bit that's an issue. I did meet a friend yesterday as we live relatively near each other but my best walking pal is about a 15 minute drive to be half-way for us both.


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## hovis (Feb 3, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Just an update from my home country. Several cases being reported now of care home bosses, people in managerial roles within council social- and health services and board members at one of the biggest hospitals who've circumvented the vaccination que and vaccinated themselves + their families.
		
Click to expand...

My boss's wife is a nurse.  She was told by management to get a list of friends and family that could get to the hospital within 20 minutes.  This is purely to stop vacines being tipped down the drain because of no shows.  Most of the management at her hospital have naturally been vaccinated as a result.  

Don't be so fast to jump to conclusions


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## anotherdouble (Feb 3, 2021)

Where is Phil and the numbers for today


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## road2ruin (Feb 3, 2021)

hovis said:



			My boss's wife is a nurse.  She was told by management to get a list of friends and family that could get to the hospital within 20 minutes.  This is purely to stop vacines being tipped down the drain because of no shows.  Most of the management at her hospital have naturally been vaccinated as a result.

Don't be so fast to jump to conclusions
		
Click to expand...

Similar story near a family member who lives almost right next door to a hospital. Local residents are on a list and in the evening are called to see if they’d like to be vaccinated and if so can they can across within 15 minutes or so. Always late on to ensure no one more deserving gets missed but prevents wastage.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely the amount of alcohol you wafu’s consumed would make your bodies immune to all.

Click to expand...

Wafu I may be (better than a Crab 🙂) but I also have a group 'H' driving licence having passed my tank driving course at Ludgershaw.  Now there's a paradox 🤔


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Bus drivers on the Isle of Wight have been offered a jab, and the company is working at getting the mainland drivers done asap. Also my wife (early years practitioner) has been told she will get it in the next two weeks due to the local authority being given a stock of vaccines to use where they see fit and her workplace being one of the chosen ones.
		
Click to expand...

Good for them, but the Govt official prioritisation rules don't cover that. The idea of Councils being given vax to do as they see fit worries me.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 3, 2021)

larmen said:



			When I got my jab last Sunday there was a group of bus drivers there from the droid just down the road. It seems like key worker groups are being invited?* If yes, rightfully so in my opinion.*

Click to expand...

I agree...

If we want society back to 'normal' sooner rather than later we need to start prioritising those in the groups that ensure society functions well...

Perhaps, if Gavin grew a pair and spoke up for his 'troops' in the manner Cressida Dick did for her folk there'd be no need for 'bleating'...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Good for them, but the Govt official prioritisation rules don't cover that. The idea of Councils being given vax to do as they see fit worries me.
		
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Yes, I have heard of so many cases where people have been jabbed when not in cat 1 to 4


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## SteveW86 (Feb 3, 2021)

That timeline would be incredible really.

In my totally non professional opinion I do think that we need to be careful with international travel. It would be great if all domestic issues across the globe were sorted and then we can be a bit more confident that we have really beaten this.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Good for them, but the Govt official prioritisation rules don't cover that. The idea of Councils being given vax to do as they see fit worries me.
		
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I do know the company has been in discussions with the Department of Transport so its not a circumvention. Probably something to do with the Island population being so small that they got bumped up a bit.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Where is Phil and the numbers for today
		
Click to expand...

In my post earlier 🤷‍♂️


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## Slime (Feb 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Added the slides - *over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population we will be done June at this rate*

Click to expand...

Unless I'm missing something, surely 10 million is pretty close to 1/6th of the population already.

Oh Phil, keep the good news rolling, we all need it and appreciate it.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 3, 2021)

hovis said:



			My boss's wife is a nurse.  She was told by management to get a list of friends and family that could get to the hospital within 20 minutes.  This is purely to stop vacines being tipped down the drain because of no shows.  Most of the management at her hospital have naturally been vaccinated as a result. 

Don't be so fast to jump to conclusions
		
Click to expand...

The protocol has been to call in frontline staff first to get any spare vaccine. These people have ignored those protocols and called their families instead of offering it to the staff.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 3, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Daughter has just told Missis T that grandson had told the teacher he has had a Covid test and is waiting for results. The head teacher rang daughter and asked if that was the case. He was assured that was not the case at all, much to the relief of the school. He is 8 bless him.
		
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Trying to get out of PE has taken on a new level.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 3, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Just an update from my home country. Several cases being reported now of care home bosses, people in managerial roles within council social- and health services and board members at one of the biggest hospitals who've circumvented the vaccination que and vaccinated themselves + their families.
		
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No surprise there.
Someone will always find a way.


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## larmen (Feb 3, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I agree...

If we want society back to 'normal' sooner rather than later we need to start prioritising those in the groups that ensure society functions well...

Perhaps, if Gavin grew a pair and spoke up for his 'troops' in the manner Cressida Dick did for her folk there'd be no need for 'bleating'...
		
Click to expand...

My opinion is based on frequency of different contacts, especially if the vaccine stops the spread as well. Bus drivers, supermarket checkout, ... ,
 they could be infected on Monday and by Friday they have been in contact with another thousand people.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Similar story near a family member who lives almost right next door to a hospital. Local residents are on a list and in the evening are called to see if they’d like to be vaccinated and if so can they can across within 15 minutes or so. Always late on to ensure no one more deserving gets missed but prevents wastage.
		
Click to expand...

As said in my other reply. It works the same way in Sweden.

The issue is that they have turned the protocol upside down to benefit themselves and their families.

Actual protocol if there are spare doses:

1. Working staff that have yet to be vaccinated.
2. Call in staff that are not working.
3. Others.

These people have switched number 3 to 1.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:
Added the slides - *over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population we will be done June at this rate*




Slime said:



			Unless I'm missing something, surely 10 million is pretty close to 1/6th of the population already.

Oh Phil, keep the good news rolling, we all need it and appreciate it. 

Click to expand...


Put a comma between "population" and "we"

"*over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population, we will be done June at this rate*"


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 3, 2021)

One of our local vaccination centres has been set up in a local park, with a gazebo in place to provide the volunteers doing the paperwork with some protection.  It has been nicked overnight.

Is there no depths to which scum will not stoop?


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 3, 2021)

You've got all your life to see your bloody mates! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-merseyside-55926242


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## Beezerk (Feb 3, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			You've got all your life to see your bloody mates! 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-merseyside-55926242

Click to expand...

Dossers!


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 3, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Dossers!
		
Click to expand...

I recognise the lack of sympathy at the end of the video!


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I do know the company has been in discussions with the Department of Transport so its not a circumvention. Probably something to do with the Island population being so small that they got bumped up a bit.
		
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It probably makes sense. but the IOW isn't Man or Jersey, it is part of English rules, and bus drivers there are no different from bus drivers anywhere. Personally, I favour an Israeli style approach where they vaccinate anybody willing to take it, with a lot less fuss and ceremony than here. But we have a situation where some frontline NHS staff are still waiting.


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## Mudball (Feb 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It probably makes sense. but the IOW isn't Man or Jersey, it is part of English rules, and bus drivers there are no different from bus drivers anywhere. Personally, I favour an Israeli style approach where they vaccinate anybody willing to take it, with a lot less fuss and ceremony than here. But we have a situation where some frontline NHS staff are still waiting.
		
Click to expand...

Its happening everwhere.. there seems to be some left over at the end of the day, so people are being called up..   my wife's clinic got a call to see if any of the clinicans or staff is around to come and wait.  They went over and most of them got their first jab.  But again they are frontline so its worth it.   My GP/Council had not called her till then.


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Its happening everwhere.. there seems to be some left over at the end of the day, so people are being called up..   my wife's clinic got a call to see if any of the clinicans or staff is around to come and wait.  They went over and most of them got their first jab.  But again they are frontline so its worth it.   My GP/Council had not called her till then.
		
Click to expand...

There are plenty of places that have threatened staff who vaccinate anyone not in the priority groups with referral to their regulatory body. It is a shame to waste any vaccine, and I would rather they grabbed people off the street than throw it away. Clinicians and frontline staff should not have to wait around for leftovers.


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## larmen (Feb 3, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



Liverpoolphil said:
Added the slides - *over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population we will be done June at this rate*





Put a comma between "population" and "we"

"*over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population, we will be done June at this rate*"
		
Click to expand...

But if they only do the over 16s, should we be done earlier?


Are there any trials going on minors, pregnant women, and other currently not vaccinated groups?


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## chellie (Feb 3, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			It's the stay local bit that's an issue. I did meet a friend yesterday as we live relatively near each other but my best walking pal is about a 15 minute drive to be half-way for us both.
		
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I don't think a 15 minute drive is an issue Amanda. I have to drive that for work.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 3, 2021)

What is the point of the WHO visit to Wuhan 🤔🥴 #coverup.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 3, 2021)

chellie said:



			I don't think a 15 minute drive is an issue Amanda. I have to drive that for work.
		
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It was in Derbyshire.


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## chellie (Feb 4, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			It was in Derbyshire.
		
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But then the fines were given out incorrectly.


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2021)

larmen said:



			But if they only do the over 16s, should we be done earlier?


Are there any trials going on minors, pregnant women, and other currently not vaccinated groups?
		
Click to expand...

There are some trials on pregnant women who can already be treated if the benefit-risk is considered to favour it. Likewise children can be treated if at special risk if not vacc'd. The problem with trialling on pregnant women is that it is impossible to prove a negative, that there is no risk. It is fairly easy to show that there does not appear to be a risk, but that is slightly different. It is very unlikely that the vaccine has different effects in a 15 year old than a 18 year old.

Other high risk groups, such as immunocomprimosed and HIV+ people have been included in studies. There should be no risk from the mRNAs for them, and little risk from others using viral vectors. There is a possibility tat the vaccination might not "take" in some of them, so testing afterwards to see if there has been an antibody response may be wise. 

As far as I am aware the only groups who absolutely cannot have the vaccine are those with allergies to the specific ingredients. Allergies to penicillin (many of which really aren't anyway) or food colouring or whatever are no longer a contraindication.


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## Colin L (Feb 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



Liverpoolphil said:
Added the slides - *over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population we will be done June at this rate*





Put a comma between "population" and "we"

"*over 10million now have had the vaccine - 1/6th of the population, we will be done June at this rate*"
		
Click to expand...

Oops.  Your "correction" is incorrect.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			I don't think a 15 minute drive is an issue Amanda. I have to drive that for work.
		
Click to expand...

I have to drive that to get to a shop


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## Old Skier (Feb 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Wafu I may be (better than a Crab 🙂) but I also have a group 'H' driving licence having passed my tank driving course at Ludgershaw.  Now there's a paradox 🤔
		
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You have a track driving license - tanks are for the gods of the universe


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

Am i right in thinking that, unless there is a change in supply that allows a massive increase, we are soon going to hit a big slow down in the numbers vaccinated. Delaying the second jab is all well and good but soon the first of those are going to start hitting the 12 week period and so the focus will be on second injections rather than new people having the first one. With millions needing the second jab, we could see a big gap before those in the less at risk categories see jab one. Not being pessimistic, just seems inevitable


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Dossers!
		
Click to expand...

Think you might also have posted 'Yossers'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I have to drive that to get to a shop
		
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whether required for work or shopping is a bit besides the point is it not - as @A herself says that she doesn't have to drive that distance/time for exercise...and many of us are not driving any distance for exercise if it is available on our doorstep - as that is what the guidance/rules advise in respect of exercise.

As we each can flex and push the boundaries of the rules we know where that can take us - and that is simply to where we are today.


----------



## upsidedown (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Am i right in thinking that, unless there is a change in supply that allows a massive increase, we are soon going to hit a big slow down in the numbers vaccinated. Delaying the second jab is all well and good but soon the first of those are going to start hitting the 12 week period and so the focus will be on second injections rather than new people having the first one. With millions needing the second jab, we could see a big gap before those in the less at risk categories see jab one. Not being pessimistic, just seems inevitable
		
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same in the wee small hours and worked out I'd get my jab in April as the 12 weekers would be coming in soon. Did an online calculator this morning and I'm 22 million in the queue which has taken into account the 12 weekers and due for the jab in 9 weeks , so I think that ties in within what were being told re timescales


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## larmen (Feb 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Other high risk groups, such as immunocomprimosed and HIV+ people have been included in studies.
		
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I have a friend with autoimmune problems and she is getting her shot on Friday. I know she asked her doctors and they told her that it doesn’t matter if it is AZ or Pfizer, take it.


Another friend got his 1st shot of Jansen on Tuesday, he seems to be part of a trial. He says it’s definitely not the placebo based on the reactions he experienced over the day and the 1st night. But then, there is a placebo effect.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 4, 2021)

chellie said:



			I don't think a 15 minute drive is an issue Amanda. I have to drive that for work.
		
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It's more that I can justify it as essential I guess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Am i right in thinking that, unless there is a change in supply that allows a massive increase, we are soon going to hit a big slow down in the numbers vaccinated. Delaying the second jab is all well and good but soon the first of those are going to start hitting the 12 week period and so the focus will be on second injections rather than new people having the first one. With millions needing the second jab, we could see a big gap before those in the less at risk categories see jab one. Not being pessimistic, just seems inevitable
		
Click to expand...

See discussion on this after #15,047


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2021)

larmen said:



			I have a friend with autoimmune problems and she is getting her shot on Friday. I know she asked her doctors and they told her that it doesn’t matter if it is AZ or Pfizer, take it.


Another friend got his 1st shot of Jansen on Tuesday, he seems to be part of a trial. He says it’s definitely not the placebo based on the reactions he experienced over the day and the 1st night. But then, there is a placebo effect.
		
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Older vaccines are a possible problem for immunocompromised patients because they can react to even weakened virus in a way that normal healthy people wouldn't. No such problem with these modern vaccines. The adenovirus vector for the AZ vaccine has been rendered harmless, even though it was pretty harmless to begin with and the mRNAs have nothing that will cause a problem. 

The Janssen two shot trial is still going, so presumably your friend is in that. Results from one shot were very good, so two shots should be interesting. I don't know what the placebo is, if it is just salty water, then your friend might be right, but some trials use a different vaccine because of this possibility. The reason is that the assessment of symptoms could be coloured by conscious or unconscious knowledge about whether the person had received active or control. The subject and the assessor should both be blinded to the treatment allocation.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			You have a track driving license - tanks are for the gods of the universe 

Click to expand...

As I said I took my group 'H' driving test in a tank at the Ludgershall Army tank site in Wiltshire.  I'm starting to feel all god like now 😀


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## larmen (Feb 4, 2021)

A premiership footballer has been fined £200 for getting a haircut, that will hurt him.

The German parliament has written to the DfB a few weeks ago about footballers haircuts for just the reason of example. And in a latest match I have watched they said that all haircuts of the Hertha BSC team have been done by the captain of the team, same bubble.
Much better message and example.


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

larmen said:



			A premiership footballer has been fined £200 for getting a haircut, that will hurt him.

The German parliament has written to the DfB a few weeks ago about footballers haircuts for just the reason of example. And in a latest match I have watched they said that all haircuts of the Hertha BSC team have been done by the captain of the team, same bubble.
Much better message and example.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly for those with almost endless riches, a fine is never going to be a deterrent. There should be sanctions for the clubs involved.


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## Mudball (Feb 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are plenty of places that have threatened staff who vaccinate anyone not in the priority groups with referral to their regulatory body. It is a shame to waste any vaccine, and I would rather they grabbed people off the street than throw it away. *Clinicians and frontline staff should not have to wait around for leftovers*.
		
Click to expand...

Agree.. In the case of my good lady, her clinic is in a different county than where we live.  So here turn hasnt come up within the Surrey cycle.  However, when the Hamsps had some spares, they called her clinic to sweep up.  Since then have spoken to my GP, he says, she will get her next jab via the local at the designated time.


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## Crow (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Sadly for those with almost endless riches, a fine is never going to be a deterrent. There should be sanctions for the clubs involved.
		
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A better penalty would be forcing the offending player to have their hair cut for a year by Aunty Edna at number 54.


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2021)

Funny the talk of haircuts. I watched the Rangers game last night and thought they all had fresh looking haircuts - unlike me.😀


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

KenL said:



			Funny the talk of haircuts. I watched the Rangers game last night and thought they all had fresh looking haircuts - unlike me.😀
		
Click to expand...

It is strange when you think that a large part of the country wee in lockdown in November and in Tier 4 after that and then in lockdown again and so a large number of footballers (and other people, including other sportsmen and women), would not have been able to have a trip to the barbers or hairdressers for over 3 months now. On that basis, anyone with neat, trimmed hair either has someone in their house with the right skills or has been breaching that rule.


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## larmen (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			On that basis, anyone with neat, trimmed hair either has someone in their house with the right skills or has been breaching that rule.
		
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I am having a number 2 all around after blending a 2 into a 3 didn’t work out.


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## larmen (Feb 4, 2021)

Our neighbours hasn’t cut his hair or trimmed his beard for nearly a year now. He plans a big charity thing to the 1 year anniversary of the 1st lockdown. I think he works for quite a big tech company and there will be value in there.
But that would be quite impractical for profess football players to do so.


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Am i right in thinking that, unless there is a change in supply that allows a massive increase, we are soon going to hit a big slow down in the numbers vaccinated. Delaying the second jab is all well and good but soon the first of those are going to start hitting the 12 week period and so the focus will be on second injections rather than new people having the first one. With millions needing the second jab, we could see a big gap before those in the less at risk categories see jab one. Not being pessimistic, just seems inevitable
		
Click to expand...

I've done some checking into the numbers and it appears that in the *first 3 weeks* after the first vaccination was given, 8-29th Dec, about 543,000 got their first jab.
Last weekend, almost 600,000 got their jab *in one day.*

There will obviously be a reduction in first jabs when the second dosers come along but the numbers will be tiny, compared to how many jabs will be given in 4 weeks time.


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## Slime (Feb 4, 2021)

larmen said:



*I am having a number 2 *all around after blending a 2 into a 3 didn’t work out.
		
Click to expand...

I read the first bit and wondered what the hell was coming next .................... and then it made sense!


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Sadly for those with almost endless riches, a fine is never going to be a deterrent. *There should be sanctions for the clubs involved.*

Click to expand...

Sorry, why; did the club instruct the player to get it cut?  I've got no problem with the Premier League (or any league come to that, but the Premier League seems to have a higher percentage of halfwits) issuing an edict that any player caught doing this will be suspended for 5 games or whatever, and the club being entitled to withhold wages for the period the player is suspended, but actually sanctioning the club for something that they cannot directly control short of actually locking them up is a bit off for me.


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry, why; did the club instruct the player to get it cut?  I've got no problem with the Premier League (or any league come to that, but the Premier League seems to have a higher percentage of halfwits) issuing an edict that any player caught doing this will be suspended for 5 games or whatever, and the club being entitled to withhold wages for the period the player is suspended, but actually sanctioning the club for something that they cannot directly control short of actually locking them up is a bit off for me.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, yes agree to some extent that the suspension of the player and fines from the league or club over and above those that can be imposed by the police was my thought to start with but clubs are in a privileged position and a failure to control players, of persistent or wide spread, should be punished at a club level.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 4, 2021)

In the case in question I suspect the club are banging their heads against a wall in frustration. Not only was the player stupid enough to break the law, he took a picture of it happening and posted it up on social media. All this after being given clear guideline, etc. What can you do against that level of stupid? 

Thankfully, my wife has been cutting my hair for the last 10 years or so so no 70's style long hair for me . Planning ahead


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2021)

There have been a number of first hand reports of people in the UK with cancer showing improvement after Covid vaccine. This is thought to be due to the immune system being activated and cleaning up various intruders it spots. These include an older woman who had a number of skin cancers for some months. GP examined her yesterday, lesions gone. Checked record, got vaccine about 3 weeks ago. A younger patient with lymphoma, similar effect, lymphoma significantly reduced. The immune system is powerful when it gets going. 

One of the evolving techniques for cancer treatment is a technology called CAR-T. This basically involves taking a sample of the tumour, identifying a target on it and then programming your T-cells to go get it. Can be very successful and curative in some. 

Cancer Research UK


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2021)

Hospital admissions dropping , bed occupancy dropping and also the amount of ventilators dropping 

A lot of appreciated hard work from the docs and nurses 👏 plus everyone sticking to lockdown restrictions are helping beat this 👍


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There have been a number of first hand reports of people in the UK with cancer showing improvement after Covid vaccine. This is thought to be due to the immune system being activated and cleaning up various intruders it spots. These include an older woman who had a number of skin cancers for some months. GP examined her yesterday, lesions gone. Checked record, got vaccine about 3 weeks ago. A younger patient with lymphoma, similar effect, lymphoma significantly reduced. The immune system is powerful when it gets going.

One of the evolving techniques for cancer treatment is a technology called CAR-T. This basically involves taking a sample of the tumour, identifying a target on it and then programming your T-cells to go get it. Can be very successful and curative in some.

Cancer Research UK

Click to expand...

This is a far bigger picture I guess but has the approach to the covid vaccine been any different to how cancer research has gone on over the years. From an outsiders point of view, it has appeared to be a more globally cohesive effort with a singular focus whereas cancer treatment and research always appears, to me at least, to be a more disparate one. Is there anything that medical science can learn from the process towards obtaining a covid vaccine in a miraculously short time that could be taken up in other areas or (and this is not meaning to belittle the efforts at all) strike it lucky in finding a vaccine so quickly. 

Either way, hoping Nobel prizes are on the way for those at the forefront of covid vaccine development


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This is a far bigger picture I guess but has the approach to the covid vaccine been any different to how cancer research has gone on over the years. From an outsiders point of view, it has appeared to be a more globally cohesive effort with a singular focus whereas cancer treatment and research always appears, to me at least, to be a more disparate one. Is there anything that medical science can learn from the process towards obtaining a covid vaccine in a miraculously short time that could be taken up in other areas or (and this is not meaning to belittle the efforts at all) strike it lucky in finding a vaccine so quickly.

Either way, hoping Nobel prizes are on the way for those at the forefront of covid vaccine development
		
Click to expand...

Immune effects have been a focus of cancer research for a while. There are other technologies in use or development.

The vaccine programme has illustrated the value of technologies like mRNA. mRNA therapies are a very specific and focussed type of gene therapy, where a genome is used, in this case to programme the body to produce an immune response, but other mRNAs are used to replace missing enzymes in people with genetic diseases. The viral vector method (like Oxford/AZ or Janssen) is also now validated and will no doubt be used for other diseases. One of the objections to the vaccines is 'It tales 5 years to produce a vaccine!'. Well, it doesn't have to, but a lot of time was spent on stuff that can be bypassed when you have the genome and a way of producing segments of code. And once you have a working vaccine, you can update the genetic code as new variants emerge. So this natural disaster has stimulated some ground-breaking solutions which will be useful for other stuff too.


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Immune effects have been a focus of cancer research for a while. There are other technologies in use or development.

The vaccine programme has illustrated the value of technologies like mRNA. mRNA therapies are a very specific and focussed type of gene therapy, where a genome is used, in this case to programme the body to produce an immune response, but other mRNAs are used to replace missing enzymes in people with genetic diseases. The viral vector method (like Oxford/AZ or Janssen) is also now validated and will no doubt be used for other diseases. One of the objections to the vaccines is 'It tales 5 years to produce a vaccine!'. Well, it doesn't have to, but a lot of time was spent on stuff that can be bypassed when you have the genome and a way of producing segments of code. And once you have a working vaccine, you can update the genetic code as new variants emerge. So this natural disaster has stimulated some ground-breaking solutions which will be useful for other stuff too.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, one of the few positives out of this whole thing that it could lead to some breakthroughs on other illness that has impacted on so many.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357364870124027905
Also


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357353012319166465

There was also a report that some footballers were given the vaccine at Chesterfield. It looks like they were given it because the vaccines would have been thrown away


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## Old Skier (Feb 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There was also a report that some footballers were given the vaccine at Chesterfield. It looks like they were given it because the vaccines would have been thrown away
		
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Could cause a bit of controversy. I wonder if their ground is being used as a centre.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Could cause a bit of controversy. I wonder if their ground is being used as a centre.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55936490
👍


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## SaintHacker (Feb 4, 2021)

I see absolutely no problem with this. If its going to get thrown, give it to someone, anyone, just get it into someones arm to save wasting it.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 4, 2021)

Just a thought - and I have no idea whether its valid or not -  but given that elite footballers and club staff are regularly tested for Covid, and are legally able to operate  - could it be that clubs (are able to) have a tested hairdresser on the books? Cant see that it would be good PR but I guess it might be an explanation??


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## larmen (Feb 4, 2021)

I guess if I would run a vaccination facility and have left overs I would check where I can quickly get enough people not to waste it. Where I got the jab on a Sunday evening there is a bus depot next to it, that would be my call. My GP practice where they vaccinate is directly opposite a nursery, I would call them because the school next door will be shut by the time the decision about left overs are made. I guess in Chesterfield the nearest bulk but organised assembly is the stadium.
The last thing I would want to do is calling people one by one, killing the vaccine by going slowly through a list. Call someone, ask to send 6 people, done. Possibly even prearrange that there might be a possibility.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Sorry, why; did the club instruct the player to get it cut?  I've got no problem with the Premier League (or any league come to that, but the Premier League seems to have a higher percentage of halfwits) issuing an edict that any player caught doing this will be suspended for 5 games or whatever, and the club being entitled to withhold wages for the period the player is suspended, but actually sanctioning the club for something that they cannot directly control short of actually locking them up is a bit off for me.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, completely agree. 
I've seen this attitude come in over the years.
It's all part of society " punishing " those they feel they can locate or who have the funds.
It seems to me that it's a case of "Make out *they *have a responsibility, so we can be seen to be doing something"
Yobs at a football match create havoc , and the Club is "fined" for not controlling them🤔.
Anyone here think the Club wants, incites or encourages such behaviour?
It's akin to a cinema owner being " fined" for failing to control his patrons, if some of them are yobs who run riot in there? Would that be right?


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## chrisd (Feb 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There have been a number of first hand reports of people in the UK with cancer showing improvement after Covid vaccine. This is thought to be due to the immune system being activated and cleaning up various intruders it spots. These include an older woman who had a number of skin cancers for some months. GP examined her yesterday, lesions gone. Checked record, got vaccine about 3 weeks ago. A younger patient with lymphoma, similar effect, lymphoma significantly reduced. The immune system is powerful when it gets going.

One of the evolving techniques for cancer treatment is a technology called CAR-T. This basically involves taking a sample of the tumour, identifying a target on it and then programming your T-cells to go get it. Can be very successful and curative in some.

Cancer Research UK

Click to expand...

Any particular cancers Ethan?


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Any particular cancers Ethan?
		
Click to expand...

CAR-Ts have focussed on blood cancers so far (lymphomas, leukaemias and myeloma), partly because they are more accessible compared to solid tumours but also because the antigens used to light up the blood caners tend to be expressed more exclusively on malignant cells and not on normal tissues, so a lot of the work on solid tumours immunotherapy is in identifying antigens, or ways to select antigens on the right cells, to target.


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, completely agree.
I've seen this attitude come in over the years.
It's all part of society " punishing " those they feel they can locate or who have the funds.
It seems to me that it's a case of "Make out *they *have a responsibility, so we can be seen to be doing something"
Yobs at a football match create havoc , and the Club is "fined" for not controlling them🤔.
Anyone here think the Club wants, incites or encourages such behaviour?
It's akin to a cinema owner being " fined" for failing to control his patrons, if some of them are yobs who run riot in there? Would that be right?
		
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Disagree on that to a certain extent. Agree what you say about yobs etc but players are employees and companies have a responsibility for them. An example would be that a company can put in place a health and safety policy but be liable if they do not make sure employees follow it


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, completely agree.
I've seen this attitude come in over the years.
It's all part of society " punishing " those they feel they can locate or who have the funds.
It seems to me that it's a case of "Make out *they *have a responsibility, so we can be seen to be doing something"
Yobs at a football match create havoc , and the Club is "fined" for not controlling them🤔.
Anyone here think the Club wants, incites or encourages such behaviour?
It's akin to a cinema owner being " fined" for failing to control his patrons, if some of them are yobs who run riot in there? Would that be right?
		
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Or a bit like MP's suggesting sanctions against the Russian owner of a London football club because they don't like Putin's actions.


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## USER1999 (Feb 4, 2021)

Went to my local Asda today. Masked up, gloves on, for a few essentials, that fit in one bag, self checkout etc.
There is a vaccine zone in the shop, prior appointments through the NHS, but a sensible place to do it, given that most GPs in Watford have very limited parking.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 4, 2021)

larmen said:



			I guess if I would run a vaccination facility and have left overs I would check where I can quickly get enough people not to waste it. Where I got the jab on a Sunday evening there is a bus depot next to it, that would be my call. My GP practice where they vaccinate is directly opposite a nursery, I would call them because the school next door will be shut by the time the decision about left overs are made. I guess in Chesterfield the nearest bulk but organised assembly is the stadium.
The last thing I would want to do is calling people one by one, killing the vaccine by going slowly through a list. Call someone, ask to send 6 people, done. Possibly even prearrange that there might be a possibility.
		
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Sweet lord, common sense. 👍 Unfortunately Sharon and Darren on face book have yet to have the common sense vaccination coz it’s got a chip in it. 😉
well said laramen me man.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55935875

Why the wait ? I actually thought it was already starting but still just under 2 weeks away ? Cant understand the delay

I see Wales have followed Scotland by announcing schools will reopen after half time .


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Disagree on that to a certain extent. Agree what you say about yobs etc but players are employees and companies have a responsibility for them. An example would be that a company can put in place a health and safety policy but be liable if they do not make sure employees follow it
		
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No they are not responsible for their behaviour outside the remit and terms and functions of their employment.
My employer was not responsible for my behaviour away from work.
If I had gone thieving or beating up people in pubs, or any other criminal activity when I wasn't working, then it wouldn't be right for society or my employers governing body to sanction/ fine or punish in any way my employer because of those actions of mine.


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## KenL (Feb 4, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55935875

Why the wait ? I actually thought it was already starting but still just under 2 weeks away ? Cant understand the delay

I see Wales have followed Scotland by announcing schools will reopen after half time .
		
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A very limited re-opening in Scotland fromm 22 Feb. Pre-school and early primary. 5 - 8% of senior secondary in at any one time but only for the completion of practical work going towards qualifications. No actual teaching.
No word on full return, that could easily stretch out to the Easter break.


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## GB72 (Feb 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No they are not responsible for their behaviour outside the remit and terms and functions of their employment.
My employer was not responsible for my behaviour away from work.
If I had gone thieving or beating up people in pubs, or any other criminal activity when I wasn't working, then it wouldn't be right for society or my employers governing body to sanction/ fine or punish in any way my employer because of those actions of mine.
		
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That I can see and appreciate and in most cases I agree that player sanctions are the way forward (though there has been little sign of that). Continued and multiple breaches however show a potential level of mismanagement of the situation that should require at least investigation into the club's covid prevention attitudes and policies.


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## Paperboy (Feb 5, 2021)

My friend who is a teacher (Secondary), say's he can't see school's going back til after Easter. With some teachers stating they would want the Vaccine before going back to school.


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## ExRabbit (Feb 5, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			My friend who is a teacher (Secondary), say's he can't see school's going back til after Easter. With some teachers stating they would want the Vaccine before going back to school.
		
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My wife is a teacher and she is in the vaccination group below me, but even as a 60-year guy myself, I hope she gets her jab before I do as I am very worried about the risk she is exposed to when she goes in.

Before this shutdown, at one point they had to send a lot of the children and staff home because many of the cleaning staff had become ill and so couldn't keep up with the protocols.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2021)

Well blow me down......International air travel is named as the biggest spreading source of Covid 19 within the UK.
That is a real shockeroony.


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## Ethan (Feb 5, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well blow me down......International air travel is named as the biggest spreading source of Covid 19 within the UK.
That is a real shockeroony.

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No worries, the virus has presumably agreed to a ceasefire until Feb 15th so the Govt can get organised on their airport quarantines.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 5, 2021)

Can anyone on here see how quarantine will work'
Looks like you can drive a 100 strong waggon train far less a horse and cart through the rules.

Mind you it will probably give a big boost to the ferry companies plying the Belfast to Stranraer route.


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## drdel (Feb 5, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well blow me down......International air travel is named as the biggest spreading source of Covid 19 within the UK.
That is a real shockeroony.

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It has recently become the biggest because other transmission routes have largely been contained.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No worries, the virus has presumably agreed to a ceasefire until Feb 15th so the Govt can get organised on their airport quarantines.
		
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Quarantine to start 15th Feb to give hotels time to prepare...well that's what I heard.  I may have misheard.

Disclaimer - I make no personal comment or observation on what I have heard on that matter.


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## hovis (Feb 5, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well blow me down......International air travel is named as the biggest spreading source of Covid 19 within the UK.
That is a real shockeroony.

Click to expand...

No way.  You'll be telling me Xmas gatherings where a bad idea next 😉


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2021)

Had a Pfizer jab this morning at local health centre. It was very well organised and getting through a lot of people.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 5, 2021)

Brilliant reduction in regional infection rates, this map had large areas of dark shaded regions a few weeks ago.


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## arnieboy (Feb 5, 2021)

I will be interested to see what is put on my father in law's death certificate as he had severe dementia and was admitted to hospital with a urinary infection and sepsis. He caught Covid in the last few days of his life but would have died anyway from his other conditions. Perhaps they list all three?


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## Rooter (Feb 5, 2021)

Woohoo! I am booked in for my test, Wednesday next week! and the follow-up jab is also booked already for 5th May.


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## Rooter (Feb 5, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			I will be interested to see what is put on my father in law's death certificate as he had severe dementia and was admitted to hospital with a urinary infection and sepsis. He caught Covid in the last few days of his life but would have died anyway from his other conditions. Perhaps they list all three?
		
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Sorry for the family loss, My understanding is he will be added to the daily COVID figures due to that. What's on his cert, I don't know.


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## GB72 (Feb 5, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Sorry for the family loss, My understanding is he will be added to the daily COVID figures due to that. What's on his cert, I don't know.
		
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Agreed, the figures are for those who sadly passed with Covid as opposed to from Covid.


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## Ethan (Feb 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quarantine to start 15th Feb to give hotels time to prepare...well that's what I heard.  I may have misheard.

Disclaimer - I make no personal comment or observation on what I have heard on that matter.
		
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It is over a year too late, in my opinion. Those skiers coming back from Italy last winter gave the virus a racing start in the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is over a year too late, in my opinion. Those skiers coming back from Italy last winter gave the virus a racing start in the UK.
		
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Yup. I look back to the chat I had with my brother when he was on a skiing holiday in north Italy last February (I mentioned this when I opened a thread on Feb 26 about coping with isolation...makes interesting ready today).  I think at the time there was an outbreak among brits in an Italian resort and I contacted him to check he was ok and what his hotel or air carrier were asking of him...nothing...no checks...and nothing on his return to uk.


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup. I look back to the chat I had with my brother when he was on a skiing holiday in north Italy last February.  I think at the time there was an outbreak among brits in an Italian resort and I contacted him to check he was ok and what his hotel or air carrier were asking of him...nothing...no checks...and nothing on his return to uk.
		
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Funny that, no checks in and out of mainland Europe during that time either.


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## Pants (Feb 5, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			I will be interested to see what is put on my father in law's death certificate as he had severe dementia and was admitted to hospital with a urinary infection and sepsis. He caught Covid in the last few days of his life but would have died anyway from his other conditions. Perhaps they list all three?
		
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Virtually the same as my aunt and my mate's wife.  Both advanced dementia.  Both had stopped eating and drinking.  Both taken to hospital where they caught Covid.  Both "Covid related deaths"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Funny that, no checks in and out of mainland Europe during that time either.
		
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I mentioned it in a thread I opened on Feb 26 reflecting the forward thinking and planning I had to do when looking at risk, risk mitigation and contingency measures in the context of business continuity planning for a major government service my company provided.  I had had the ‘pleasure’ of putting BCP in place to cover the risk of a bird flue pandemic when such was real.  I had to work out what it might mean and what measures would be required to maintain business continuity in the event of some or all of the operations team being ill.


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I mentioned it in a thread I opened on Feb 26 reflecting the forward thinking and planning I had to do when looking at risk, risk mitigation and contingency measures in the context of business continuity planning for a major government service my company provided.  I had had the ‘pleasure’ of putting BCP in place to cover the risk of a bird flue pandemic when such was real.  I had to work out what it might mean and what measures would be required to maintain business continuity in the event of some or all of the operations team being ill.
		
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So are you pointing a finger at all countries in Europe for not acting soon enough.


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## DanFST (Feb 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Funny that, no checks in and out of mainland Europe during that time either.
		
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There's been nothing stopping someone landing at Heathrow and getting on the tube. Still isn't as far as I'm aware?

Italy has had mandatory PCR tests before departure and on arrival since June.


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			There's been nothing stopping someone landing at Heathrow and getting on the tube. Still isn't as far as I'm aware?

Italy has had mandatory PCR tests before departure and on arrival since June.
		
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The post was about last February.  at present traveling into UK you need a negative PCR test a completed passenger location form and self isolate for 10 days. I have no idea on the quarantines like in Italy.

Edited to add you self isolate for 14 days in Italy and self certify that your journey was necessary.


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## DanFST (Feb 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			completed passenger location form and self isolate for 10 days
		
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Still nothing stopping you jumping on the tube tho.


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## larmen (Feb 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Still nothing stopping you jumping on the tube tho.
		
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For a lot of people public transport is the only way to get to and from the airport.

We travelled once last year, we took a car to Heathrow but still had to take a shuttle bus there. And on the other end we got collected by family which was a 2 hour drive. I will not hopefully be travelling by plane until we can safely use public transport on both sides again.


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## Old Skier (Feb 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Still nothing stopping you jumping on the tube tho.
		
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No as there isn’t traveling to many other countries were travel is permitted. Seems the UK is fairly typical of many other countries in the world.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 5, 2021)

The numbers continue to show the good work of the vaccine teams 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357717737720709120
Hospital admissions dropping as well 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357738074441146369
And the number of new cases has dropped significantly over the past 7 days 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357722363698290688


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 5, 2021)

Some of the garbage being printed in the papers is starting to get annoying, along with those who perpetuate it.

Apparently there is an article in one of the tabloids that there have been 140 deaths in people who have recently had the jab, and it is being circulated by our resident conspiracy theorist Trump lover at the club.  Simple maths will tell you that out of a population of about 66 million, 110,000 have sadly died, out of nearly 11 million who have had the jab, 140 have died so there is no doubt which is the bigger issue.  Add a bit of logic to that and say that this currently getting the jab are generally much nearer end of life anyway, so they are much more likely to die than the general population who have not had the jab.  And apparently there is no direct evidence to link the jab as a cause of death.  Yet the paper printed it & it gets perpetuated.

I've said it before, but when this is over & the enquiry takes place, the press deserve as close scrutiny as any other body, if not closer.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 5, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Some of the garbage being printed in the papers is starting to get annoying, along with those who perpetuate it.

Apparently there is an article in one of the tabloids that there have been 140 deaths in people who have recently had the jab, and it is being circulated by our president conspiracy theorist Trump lover at the club.  Simple maths will tell you that out of a population of about 66 million, 110,000 have sadly died, out of nearly 11 million who have had the jab, 140 have died so there is no doubt which is the bigger issue.  Add a bit of logic to that and say that this currently getting the jab are generally much nearer end of life anyway, so they are much more likely to die than the general population who have not had the jab.  And apparently there is no direct evidence to link the jab as a cause of death.  Yet the paper printed it & it gets perpetuated.

I've said it before, but when this is over & the enquiry takes place, the press deserve as close scrutiny as any other body, if not closer.
		
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Old people have died? Nah, not having that...


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## SaintHacker (Feb 5, 2021)

larmen said:



			For a lot of people public transport is the only way to get to and from the airport.

We travelled once last year, we took a car to Heathrow but still had to take a shuttle bus there. And on the other end we got collected by family which was a 2 hour drive. I will not hopefully be travelling by plane until we can safely use public transport on both sides again.
		
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I'm hoping this could be a good opportunity to get the coach industry back on its feet, an industry which has been absolutely shafted during the pandemic. You get off the plane, and on a coach to a hotel. No passing go no collecting £200


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## DanFST (Feb 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm hoping this could be a good opportunity to get the coach industry back on its feet, an industry which has been absolutely shafted during the pandemic. You get off the plane, and on a coach to a hotel. No passing go no collecting £200
		
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Far to much common sense.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 6, 2021)

Re Public transport.
When the IOW had it's surge with the second phase they traced many cases back to bus stops on the popular circular route.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2021)

Seems to me there is a definite 'postcode lottery' with 'jabbing'... Two of my brothers in law have had theirs... One and three years my junior with no underlying health issues living in the home counties... Yet, their sister one year my senior, currently furloughed from her job as a bus driver as she has to shield due to recent/ongoing dealings with cancer has had no contact whatsoever... She resides in the west country...


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## Old Skier (Feb 6, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Seems to me there is a definite 'postcode lottery' with 'jabbing'... Two of my brothers in law have had theirs... One and three years my junior with no underlying health issues living in the home counties... Yet, their sister one year my senior, currently furloughed from her job as a bus driver as she has to shield due to recent/ongoing dealings with cancer has had no contact whatsoever... She resides in the west country...
		
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The problem in the West Country (Devon/Cornwall) is according to the NHS is the high over 80's population along with lack of vaccine. 
Definitely a post code lottery as Dorset are already on 60+.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The problem in the West Country (Devon/Cornwall) is according to the NHS is the high over 80's population along with lack of vaccine.
Definitely a post code lottery as Dorset are already on 60+.
		
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London is behind [in numbers jabbed], apparently, because of relatively low population of elderly having all moved to South Coast/Spain on retirement... All of my 80+ aged friends/neighbours have been jabbed but none [yet] in the 70+ group...


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## D-S (Feb 6, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The problem in the West Country (Devon/Cornwall) is according to the NHS is the high over 80's population along with lack of vaccine.
Definitely a post code lottery as Dorset are already on 60+.
		
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## D-S (Feb 6, 2021)

South West doesn’t look bad to me.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

Today’s news reports pubs could be open in April but no serving of alcohol.😳

And students could go back to University next month 😳


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Today’s news reports pubs could be open in April but no serving of alcohol.😳

And students could go back to University next month 😳
		
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Students are already back at university. A lot of the learning is online, not all, but plenty have been back since early to mid January. 

The difference this time is a/ half of them have already had it so are not catching it again  b/ universities are offering tests as they arrive back. Anyone testing positive then isolates. Much better organised this time rather than the free for all back in September. So far no spikes, no explosion of infections.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Students are already back at university. A lot of the learning is online, not all, but plenty have been back since early to mid January.

The difference this time is a/ half of them have already had it so are not catching it again  b/ universities are offering tests as they arrive back. Anyone testing positive then isolates. Much better organised this time rather than the free for all back in September. So far no spikes, no explosion of infections.
		
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It was inevitable that students were going to go back in to UnI at some point. My main griefs are that students are still having parties and not learned. But mainly, Why are we still giving dates to what May (or may not) happen especially 2 months away. Has history of this Covid not taught us anything. A week or two I get, but how can we really predict what May happen in April re this virus.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Today’s news reports pubs could be open in April but no serving of alcohol.😳

And students could go back to University next month 😳
		
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Tashyboy said:



			It was inevitable that students were going to go back in to UnI at some point. My main griefs are that students are still having parties and not learned. But mainly, Why are we still giving dates to what May (or may not) happen especially 2 months away. Has history of this Covid not taught us anything. A week or two I get, but how can we really predict what May happen in April re this virus.
		
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Seems like it's damn them if they do damn them if they don't.

Where do you get your news Tashy, seems a bit iffy.


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## Bunkermagnet (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			My main griefs are that students are still having parties and not learned.
		
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Sorry Tashy, some students have had parties etc but the majority of illegal gatherings I have heard of in my part of the country are not students, but people who should know better and who cannot be arrsed to obey the guidance and rules, whether they are rich or poor. Too many think the rules still dont apply to them because of ANY reason they want to think up.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Seems like it's damn them if they do damn them if they don't.

Where do you get your news Tashy, seems a bit iffy.
		
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It’s on the front pages of the guardian and telegraph, I couldn’t bring myself to quote the “ summer holidays are on the cards” seeing as some country’s are struggling so much they are flying in medical staff from Germany to help in Portugal. 
Not sure how some rags can quote summer holidays when some country’s are really struggling esp with the vaccine roll out numbers. If we can get away/abroad before July it will be a minor miracle. This country due to how the vaccine roll,out is going may well be a safer bet.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Sorry Tashy, some students have had parties etc but the majority of illegal gatherings I have heard of in my part of the country are not students, but people who should know better and who cannot be arrsed to obey the guidance and rules, whether they are rich or poor. Too many think the rules still dont apply to them because of ANY reason they want to think up.
		
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Amen to that, 👍 maybe one of the problems living in the Nottingham area is it is locally reported more often than it should be. Just had a quick Google and loads of student parties ( Nottingham) have been attended to by the police And some big fines handed out. Is it representative of the whole of the UK,hope not. But as you say, unfortunately it is not just students.


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Today’s news reports pubs could be open in April but no serving of alcohol.
		
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And the point of that would be?


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			And the point of that would be?
		
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Re what guy 👍


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			It was inevitable that students were going to go back in to UnI at some point. My main griefs are that students are still having parties and not learned. But mainly, Why are we still giving dates to what May (or may not) happen especially 2 months away. Has history of this Covid not taught us anything. A week or two I get, but how can we really predict what May happen in April re this virus.
		
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Can't speak for elsewhere but I feel much of the 'issues', here in London Village, are led by the thousands taking to the tube [on a daily basis] clad in hi-vis on their way to sites with no future [office/retail]... Yet, despite that, the focus seems to be with the relatively low numbers, in the hundreds, of covidiots partying...


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 6, 2021)

Israel giving us some evidence of how the vaccine is helping 




These are also the cases locally around the UK 




All the numbers are giving us positive news in regards combating the virus 

When you add that by the 15th Feb they will have vaccinated the groups they wanted too ( plus a few more ) then the road map from the 22nd should be a lot more positive in terms of easing of restrictions ahead for us all 

Will be interesting to see if they stick to national tiers as opposed to locally 

I also wonder if they will react earlier in regards some primary schools etc ( the same as Wales and Scotland )!


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			And the point of that would be?
		
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Re what guy 👍


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't speak for elsewhere but I feel much of the 'issues', here in London Village, are led by the thousands taking to the tube [on a daily basis] clad in hi-vis on their way to sites with no future [office/retail]... Yet, despite that, the focus seems to be with the relatively low numbers, in the hundreds, of covidiots partying...
		
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Steve coming from a sleepy hamlet in the midlands, how bad is it in London village. I was surprised how slow the rollout is. We keep hearing about how London in general is favoured but the roll out seems slow. Why’s that.
Gotta go having me toenails painted 😁


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Re what guy 👍
		
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Sorry. I didn't understand your response the first time and still don't.
"Re what guy "?


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 6, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Sorry. I didn't understand your response the first time and still don't.
"Re what guy "?
		
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Don’t worry we occasionally need an interpreter for Tash 😂👍


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2021)

The vast majority of students are very sensible and work hard to qualify in their chosen subjects.

A few loons you hear about do not represent the thousands acting responsibly.


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## Old Skier (Feb 6, 2021)




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## road2ruin (Feb 6, 2021)

The doom merchants at SAGE are at it again, I guess they're concerned that they are not going to be relevant soon so they are already getting the stories ready. 

"Studies, released yesterday by Sage, suggests there will be 750 deaths a day in England by November, with 20,000 people in hospital fighting the virus."

"While both the Pfizer and Oxford vaccines cut transmission by 60 per cent, the research said it might be insufficient to fight the morr agressive Covid mutations." 

"Professor Neil Ferguson’s team at Imperial College London have said the R-rate is likely to climb to four, with an additional 130,800 fatalities between now and June next year."

It's nice for them, pay cheques regardless of any pandemic and possibly more likely to get a rise with this sort of thing. Do they honestly think that the public are going to take further lockdowns. We have vaccines, hopefully they continue to work however if they don't then we all just have to learn to get on with it as best we can.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Sorry. I didn't understand your response the first time and still don't.
"Re what guy "?
		
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GuyInLyon said:



			Sorry. I didn't understand your response the first time and still don't.
"Re what guy "?
		
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Sorry GuyInLyon, you commented “what would be the point of that”. Do you mean what would be the point of opening the pubs without serving alcohol.
“Re what guy” I wasn’t sure what you meant by your post.

That aside how is France coping at the moment. I was supposed to be travelling to Normandy in April which was put back from last Sept. April’s trip has been cancelled and pushed back to September.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Don’t worry we occasionally need an interpreter for Tash 😂👍
		
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😳😁


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Steve coming from a sleepy hamlet in the midlands, how bad is it in London village. I was surprised how slow the rollout is. We keep hearing about how London in general is favoured but the roll out seems slow. Why’s that.
Gotta go having me toenails painted 😁
		
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My part of the 'village' is probably as quiet as your hamlet... Local hospital has been over-run with cases as is the case with many of the adjacent hospitals also... Not sure why the roll-out of the jab is lagging behind and I am not convinced the excuse of relative low numbers of elderly cuts it... As I noted earlier... Family in their 60's have had jabs living where there's been relatively low cases yet I have family living on the other side of the village, where there has been high levels of cases, well into their 70's who've yet to have contact regarding being jabbed... Hopefully any anomalies will level out sooner rather than later...  Certainly no favouritism for Londoners from 'management' ...


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 6, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			And the point of that would be?
		
Click to expand...

Just to make some money!
People were working from the pubs earlier in the year.
Renting a table with internet access,food and soft drinks.
Get them out the house.
Making some work for staff.


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## Ethan (Feb 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The doom merchants at SAGE are at it again, I guess they're concerned that they are not going to be relevant soon so they are already getting the stories ready.

"Studies, released yesterday by Sage, suggests there will be 750 deaths a day in England by November, with 20,000 people in hospital fighting the virus."

"While both the Pfizer and Oxford vaccines cut transmission by 60 per cent, the research said it might be insufficient to fight the morr agressive Covid mutations."

"Professor Neil Ferguson’s team at Imperial College London have said the R-rate is likely to climb to four, with an additional 130,800 fatalities between now and June next year."

It's nice for them, pay cheques regardless of any pandemic and possibly more likely to get a rise with this sort of thing. Do they honestly think that the public are going to take further lockdowns. We have vaccines, hopefully they continue to work however if they don't then we all just have to learn to get on with it as best we can.
		
Click to expand...

SAGE are supposed to be, as you put it, 'doom merchants' and issue warnings that encourage change. As Chris Whitty put it in a speech a year ago, the best position is for stuff to be done and then people to say 'Told you so, it was an over-reaction' when in fact the measures just succeeded by a whisker.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Feb 6, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Don’t worry we occasionally need an interpreter for Tash 😂👍
		
Click to expand...

Am I allowed to fix that for you & swap occasionally for frequently? 

(Yes I know I'm not, but I had to ask )


----------



## chellie (Feb 6, 2021)

https://www.nhs.uk/book-a-coronavirus-vaccination/do-you-have-an-nhs-number Anyone waiting for a letter to book check this link.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			SAGE are supposed to be, as you put it, 'doom merchants' and issue warnings that encourage change. As Chris Whitty put it in a speech a year ago, the best position is for stuff to be done and then people to say 'Told you so, it was an over-reaction' when in fact the measures just succeeded by a whisker.
		
Click to expand...

I saw the clip the other day where My Whitty was being filmed and called a liar Re the pandemic. The person calling Whitty a liar was 15 yrs old. My lad was telling me he heard the lads mother on the radio saying “her son was a bad boy and he has had his PS4 taken off him, but she don’t think it’s that serious to ground him” . It was pointed out to her that we are in lockdown and we should all be grounded anyway.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Feb 6, 2021)

chellie said:



https://www.nhs.uk/book-a-coronavirus-vaccination/do-you-have-an-nhs-number Anyone waiting for a letter to book check this link.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/online-services/find-nhs-number/

Use this one if you want to find your number; the one quoted above kicked me out because I hadn't had a letter.  Text or email response is pretty much instantaneous.


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## chellie (Feb 6, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/online-services/find-nhs-number/

If you want to find your number; the one quoted above kicked me out because I hadn't had a letter.
		
Click to expand...

If you are not eligible to book yet it won't let you book. Corrected link below.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/ You can use it without the letter and it is being encouraged.


----------



## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Can't speak for elsewhere but I feel much of the 'issues', here in London Village, are led by the t*housands taking to the tube [on a daily basis] clad in hi-vis on their way to sites* with no future [office/retail]... Yet, despite that, the focus seems to be with the relatively low numbers, in the hundreds, of covidiots partying...
		
Click to expand...

Thank dog someone’s still paying Tax, contributing to the system eh?


----------



## SteveJay (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Steve coming from a sleepy hamlet in the midlands, how bad is it in London village. I was surprised how slow the rollout is. We keep hearing about how London in general is favoured but the roll out seems slow. Why’s that.
Gotta go having me toenails painted 😁
		
Click to expand...

Maybe London is slower due to the diverse population. I read that take up of the vaccine amongst the BAME community is something like 15% which shocked me. If correct then as London has a significant BAME population it maybe partly explains it.


----------



## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

When I talked about local news earlier Ave come across this. Bearing in Mind 29 people have died in the last four days in Mansfield and Ashfield.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-55963093


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 6, 2021)

Anyone in authority has to give the worst case scenario as whenever the public inquiry comes, they don't want to be hit with the "why didn't you warn us" hammer.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

I don’t know if it is a national booking base but these are up and running in the Notts area. I have used them to book appointments for both of our parents. Once registered I checked every day and as soon as bookings became available for my parents in booked them in. 9 days later there NHS letter came to book. Similar with in laws. We booked them in and five days later there letter came. Ironically they were over 70,s and it kicked off a bit as they had not got anywhere near finishing the over 80’s so they cancelled over 70,s to finish off most of over 80,s but honoured the bookings that had already been made. It seems that as soon as appointments are available. They are on here first.

Check it out.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Thank god someone’s still paying Tax, contributing to the system eh?
		
Click to expand...


He'd be the last person I'd thank for anything... Whilst 'the system' requires maintaining soaring infection rates needed to be addressed rather than ignored...


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Anyone in authority has to give the worst case scenario as whenever *the public inquiry comes,* they don't want to be hit with the "why didn't you warn us" hammer.
		
Click to expand...

Dear lord the forum will be in meltdown over that one, fraggers gonna be on overtime editing posts and giving out infractions over political posts. 😣😁


----------



## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



*He'd* be the last person I'd thank for anything... Whilst 'the system' requires maintaining soaring infection rates needed to addressed rather than ignored...
		
Click to expand...

Good point. I’ve edited.😁


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## 4LEX (Feb 6, 2021)

Great results from Israel about the over 60's vs the under 60's who have been vaccinated and haven't. Clear data that shows a huge drop off in case numbers, hospitalisations and deaths.

Science is winning.

Meanwhile Piers Corbyn would rather have you ignore any restrictions and refuse vacciniations


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 6, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358031919900942336
Numbers are getting better 👏 a lot of people need to be thanked


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## Crazyface (Feb 6, 2021)

The roads were busier today.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 6, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Great results from Israel about the over 60's vs the under 60's who have been vaccinated and haven't. Clear data that shows a huge drop off in case numbers, hospitalisations and deaths.

Science is winning.

*Meanwhile Piers Corbyn would rather have you ignore any restrictions and refuse vacciniations *

Click to expand...

Probably been taking advice from Desmond Swayne...


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358031919900942336
Numbers are getting better 👏 *a lot of people need to be thanked*

Click to expand...

I know the medical side has pulled out all the stops and I will always be grateful of them but My wife got her vaccine in the week and I was so impressed with the efforts of all the Volunteers, it was raining and they were busy but the volunteers were brilliant, manning the car park, getting chairs for the more infirm in the queue and just doing everything!


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## Old Skier (Feb 6, 2021)

chellie said:



			If you are not eligible to book yet it won't let you book. Corrected link below.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/ You can use it without the letter and it is being encouraged.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, all 70+ in Exeter area been encouraging to go on line and book in to their local centre as long as they have their NHS No.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			😳😁
		
Click to expand...

It's a must Tash


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			It's a must Tash 

Click to expand...

😁 bad man


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Do you mean what would be the point of opening the pubs without serving alcohol.
		
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Yes. I've spent many hours in many pubs over the years, and the idea of spending hours in a pub that didn't serve alcohol just confuses me, and leaves me troubled...


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## Tashyboy (Feb 6, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Yes. I've spent many hours in many pubs over the years, and the idea of spending hours in a pub that didn't serve alcohol just confuses me, and leaves me troubled...
		
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I found it somewhat puzzling that pubs may open without serving alcohol also. I would also question whether every pub would also stick to that rule should they open. Everyone wants the pubs to open as per normal. Not sure folk would rush back for fish and chips with a lemonade.


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## road2ruin (Feb 6, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I found it somewhat puzzling that pubs may open without serving alcohol also. I would also question whether every pub would also stick to that rule should they open. Everyone wants the pubs to open as per normal. Not sure folk would rush back for fish and chips with a lemonade.
		
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Like going to a brothel for a cuddle.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Like going to a brothel for a cuddle.
		
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Not sure I know many people missing the pub not the drink, the ability to meet up with friends and just chew the fat 

So can see where the idea came from as social distancing would be easier to stick to when sober 

However it has proved a poor idea 

Plus the pubs would make nothing really as you don't down soft drinks like you do booze


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## road2ruin (Feb 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Not sure I know many people missing the pub not the drink, the ability to meet up with friends and just chew the fat

So can see where the idea came from as social distancing would be easier to stick to when sober

However it has proved a poor idea

Plus the pubs would make nothing really as you don't down soft drinks like you do booze
		
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My experience of pubs opening in the summer was that the felt safer than most supermarkets and other shops. Everything was table service and you could only get up for the toilet. The only thing that ever made me feel unsafe in the sense of the virus was the ridiculous 10pm curfew that simply resulted in the entire pub being turfed out onto the street at exactly the same time. Stick to the usual closing times and there is a gradual decline in drinkers throughout the evening. Obviously there are going to be the pubs that don’t stick to the rules however I’m fairly sure these were few and far between. 

Personally I won’t be going to the pub to pay the same price for a pint of Coke, I can’t see many pubs opening and those who do, will they get enough business through the door to make it worthwhile? I don’t actually think this will happen, it’s frankly one of the stupidest ideas I’ve heard but who knows.


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## Crow (Feb 6, 2021)

I understood that the pubs make more margin on soft drinks and food than they do on alcoholic beverages anyway.


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## larmen (Feb 7, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358031919900942336
Numbers are getting better 👏 a lot of people need to be thanked
		
Click to expand...

That was an awful December, even with Xmas cancelled at the last second.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 7, 2021)

Crow said:



			I understood that the pubs make more margin on soft drinks and food than they do on alcoholic beverages anyway.
		
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The volume sold tho 

Make £1 on a lemonade but sell 100 a day or 50p on a pint but sell 1000 a day


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## Crow (Feb 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The volume sold tho

Make £1 on a lemonade but sell 100 a day or 50p on a pint but sell 1000 a day
		
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If they can't sell pints they'll be selling lemonade, or other soft drink of your choice.


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## hovis (Feb 7, 2021)

Crow said:



			I understood that the pubs make more margin on soft drinks and food than they do on alcoholic beverages anyway.
		
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They do by a considerable amount.  But soft drinks account for a very small percentage of their sales.  I'd rather make 40% on a 1000 pints of beer than 80% on a 100 glasses of Pepsi


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## bobmac (Feb 7, 2021)

hovis said:



			They do by a considerable amount.  But soft drinks account for a very small percentage of their sales.  I'd rather make 40% on a 1000 pints of beer than 80% on a 100 glasses of Pepsi
		
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Unfortunately, it seems to me the only choice will be 80% on 100 glasses of soft drinks or not opening.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 7, 2021)

Lastminute.com not coming out of this well?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55948436


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 7, 2021)

Traminator said:



			But people won't bother going.
		
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Won't they?  I get your point that people mainly go for booze, but for a change of scenery, a meal out & potentially a bit of social interaction with someone other than the wife I'd be quite happy to go.

I'd probably rather go then than when pubs first open properly, as the amount of people who will trying to make up for lost time will likely not make it an overly pleasurable experience.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 7, 2021)

“IF” it’s true and I suspect it’s not but there will be many establishments that will open up for food , there are lots of “bistro” pubs now that offer meals - looking at my local area there are more “pubs” that people go to for a meal as opposed to a drink 

So if they say pubs can open but only serve soft drinks then there will be a lot that open

But I can’t see them saying that a pub can open but no alcohol and even more so when you see what they suggest is the reason “ people don’t follow social distancing when drinking alcohol” 

When pubs are allowed to open a lot of the social distancing rules will be relaxed


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## pauljames87 (Feb 7, 2021)

Problem with them letting pubs open just soft drinks is those who don't see it is viable to open does it then mean they don't get any more help? Washing hands of the help?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2021)

How many points of lemonade can someone drink.


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## hovis (Feb 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How many points of lemonade can someone drink.
		
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I don't know. How many "points" do you get for drinking one pint? 🤣


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How many pints of lemonade can someone drink.
		
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As someone who often drives on nights out 3 is about my limit. It's the bubbles 😳


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## MegaSteve (Feb 7, 2021)

Believe many in hospitality are fearing their 'industry' could go the same as High St retail if they don't get folk back into their premises sooner rather than later... Was already struggling pre-covid...


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 7, 2021)

Numbers keep on showing how well everything is going

Over12 million now having the vaccine

Daily cases at 15k - lowest for over 8 weeks I believe ( just after lockdown 2 )

Daily deaths also lowest for 7 weeks


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358452786124517377


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## Fade and Die (Feb 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Problem with them letting pubs open just soft drinks is those who don't see it is viable to open does it then mean they don't get any more help? Washing hands of the help?
		
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Pubs opening just for soft drinks?...everyone will just have a half bottle of vodka in their bag. Seen plenty of young ladies doing this on a Friday night anyway, so if there is no booze being sold can see this escalating!


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## Imurg (Feb 7, 2021)

The first of my Lockdown3 tests has been cancelled and rescheduled to late August - 18 weeks away.
Beginning to get a handle on the numbers...
They're cancelling a week before the date and moving them on to the end of the queue.
In essence, they run a 18 week book at the moment so all the tests that get cancelled between now and the restart of tests will get moved on 18 weeks as well.
What it doesn't seem to take into account is the multitude of kids who would normally book tests between Jan and freedom and that number is going to be 35000+ if we start back early March and I think that's a long shot. 3500 a week on average.
And when booking for thos kids does open there will be 35k plus an extra 3.5k every week trying to get tests.
They are trying to train more examiners but that takes time in the car as well as the classroom so that can't happen yet.
Even with all hands on deck, extra tests each day - not always feasible depending on traffic - you could fill test slots to the end of the year and beyond.
A thoroughly depressing conclusion- someone starting driving when lockdown finishes won't be ab,e to take a test for a year...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 7, 2021)

hovis said:



			I don't know. How many "points" do you get for drinking one pint? 🤣
		
Click to expand...

It was my smellchucker


----------



## backwoodsman (Feb 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How many points of lemonade can someone drink.
		
Click to expand...

Depends whether you're in Ireland or not ...


----------



## Reemul (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My experience of pubs opening in the summer was that the felt safer than most supermarkets and other shops. Everything was table service and you could only get up for the toilet. The only thing that ever made me feel unsafe in the sense of the virus was the ridiculous 10pm curfew that simply resulted in the entire pub being turfed out onto the street at exactly the same time. Stick to the usual closing times and there is a gradual decline in drinkers throughout the evening. Obviously there are going to be the pubs that don’t stick to the rules however I’m fairly sure these were few and far between.

Personally I won’t be going to the pub to pay the same price for a pint of Coke, I can’t see many pubs opening and those who do, will they get enough business through the door to make it worthwhile? I don’t actually think this will happen, it’s frankly one of the stupidest ideas I’ve heard but who knows.
		
Click to expand...

Really that is stupid, no one goes to a Supermarket for 4 hours and sits near to other people for 4 hours while drinking. You go to the shops or supermarket and spend minimal time near other people, get your stuff and get out. Anywhere indoors where you spend a significant amount of time near the same people is much riskier.

I totally get the idea of going to a pub to meet up with friends and people really miss it but justifying it with it feels safe than x,y or z is rubbish and works against what is needed. lets look at what is more risky and work out how we can make it work not pretend it is something it is not.


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## road2ruin (Feb 7, 2021)

Reemul said:



			Really that is stupid, no one goes to a Supermarket for 4 hours and sits near to other people for 4 hours while drinking. You go to the shops or supermarket and spend minimal time near other people, get your stuff and get out. Anywhere indoors where you spend a significant amount of time near the same people is much riskier.

I totally get the idea of going to a pub to meet up with friends and people really miss it but justifying it with it feels safe than x,y or z is rubbish and works against what is needed. lets look at what is more risky and work out how we can make it work not pretend it is something it is not.
		
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Public Health England would probably disagree, from November the figures below suggest that the rates of transmission in a supermarket were far higher than a bar/pub. 

*Proportion of all common locations reported in PHE data:*

Supermarket - 18.3%
Secondary school - 12.7%
Primary school - 10.1%
Hospital - 3.6%
Care home - 2.8%
College - 2.4%
Warehouse - 2.2%
Nursery preschool - 1.8%
Pub or bar - 1.6%
Hospitality - 1.5%
University - 1.4%
Manufacture engineering - 1.4%
Household fewer than five - 1.2%
General practice - 1.1%
Gym - 1.1%
Restaurant or cafe - 1.0%


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## pauljames87 (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Public Health England would probably disagree, from November the figures below suggest that the rates of transmission in a supermarket were far higher than a bar/pub. 

*Proportion of all common locations reported in PHE data:*

Supermarket - 18.3%
Secondary school - 12.7%
Primary school - 10.1%
Hospital - 3.6%
Care home - 2.8%
College - 2.4%
Warehouse - 2.2%
Nursery preschool - 1.8%
Pub or bar - 1.6%
Hospitality - 1.5%
University - 1.4%
Manufacture engineering - 1.4%
Household fewer than five - 1.2%
General practice - 1.1%
Gym - 1.1%
Restaurant or cafe - 1.0%


Click to expand...

Not really... The volume of people involved ... Ofc supermarket going to be too.. almost everyone goes to them


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Public Health England would probably disagree, from November the figures below suggest that the rates of transmission in a supermarket were far higher than a bar/pub.

*Proportion of all common locations reported in PHE data:*

Supermarket - 18.3%
Secondary school - 12.7%
Primary school - 10.1%
Hospital - 3.6%
Care home - 2.8%
College - 2.4%
Warehouse - 2.2%
Nursery preschool - 1.8%
Pub or bar - 1.6%
Hospitality - 1.5%
University - 1.4%
Manufacture engineering - 1.4%
Household fewer than five - 1.2%
General practice - 1.1%
Gym - 1.1%
Restaurant or cafe - 1.0%


Click to expand...

Locations of what?
That is a statistic which is probably nothing to do with your argument.
It is now widely believed that this virus is spread more by aerosol than any other method.
Breathing in each other's air.
and that happens when you are indoors in the same company for some time where the same air is circulating and not refreshed sufficiently.
Now, that is the definition of a pub, cafe, cinema, etc.
No wishful thinking on your part , or anyone else's,is going to change that level of risk.


----------



## Blue in Munich (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Public Health England would probably disagree, from November the figures below suggest that the rates of transmission in a supermarket were far higher than a bar/pub.

*Proportion of all common locations reported in PHE data:*

Supermarket - 18.3%
Secondary school - 12.7%
Primary school - 10.1%
Hospital - 3.6%
Care home - 2.8%
College - 2.4%
Warehouse - 2.2%
Nursery preschool - 1.8%
Pub or bar - 1.6%
Hospitality - 1.5%
University - 1.4%
Manufacture engineering - 1.4%
Household fewer than five - 1.2%
General practice - 1.1%
Gym - 1.1%
Restaurant or cafe - 1.0%


Click to expand...

I'm not sure how you can compare those locations using that statistic as whilst supermarkets have been open continuously, schools and pubs haven't.

Common locations reported does not necessarily equate to transmission, and the type of interaction in schools & the supermarket will be completely different.  

Add the primary & secondary schools together and that's 22.8%.  Factor in the amount of households that will have children in both primary & secondary education and it seems fairly obvious where the biggest transmission risk lies.


----------



## road2ruin (Feb 7, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Common locations reported does not necessarily equate to transmission, and the type of interaction in schools & the supermarket will be completely different. 

Add the primary & secondary schools together and that's 22.8%.  Factor in the amount of households that will have children in both primary & secondary education and it seems fairly obvious where the biggest transmission risk lies.
		
Click to expand...

The figures were given as the most commonly mentioned places in the run up to a positive COVID test. Obviously doesn’t prove where the transmission actually took place but what it does show is that the amount of transmission occurring in bars/pubs in comparison to the others is tiny.


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## road2ruin (Feb 7, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm not sure how you can compare those locations using that statistic as whilst supermarkets have been open continuously, schools and pubs haven't
		
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Just to add, these figures were from mid November last year when both pubs, schools etc were all open.


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## Imurg (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The figures were given as the most commonly mentioned places in the run up to a positive COVID test. Obviously doesn’t prove where the transmission actually took place but what it does show is that the amount of transmission occurring in bars/pubs in comparison to the others is tiny.
		
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If it doesn't prove where transmission occurred then the numbers can't be used to suggest where transmission occurred....


----------



## Ethan (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Public Health England would probably disagree, from November the figures below suggest that the rates of transmission in a supermarket were far higher than a bar/pub.

*Proportion of all common locations reported in PHE data:*

Supermarket - 18.3%
Secondary school - 12.7%
Primary school - 10.1%
Hospital - 3.6%
Care home - 2.8%
College - 2.4%
Warehouse - 2.2%
Nursery preschool - 1.8%
Pub or bar - 1.6%
Hospitality - 1.5%
University - 1.4%
Manufacture engineering - 1.4%
Household fewer than five - 1.2%
General practice - 1.1%
Gym - 1.1%
Restaurant or cafe - 1.0%


Click to expand...

That data is based on locations reported. It does not mean those are the places responsible, and unless PHE is doing very sophisticated genome analysis and linking cases, they really have no idea. Remember also that the pubs are currently closed except for takeaway food, and they were also subject to tier based restrictions, especially in places where case rates were high most of the time that data covers, so exposure was very low. It stands to reason that a prolonged period indoors in one place poses a higher risk than fleeting contact elsewhere.


----------



## road2ruin (Feb 7, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If it doesn't prove where transmission occurred then the numbers can't be used to suggest where transmission occurred....
		
Click to expand...

I agree but if these locations are being used in tracking and tracing cases you only have to look how far down the list pubs/bars are to see that they were barely a factor in transmission.


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## road2ruin (Feb 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Remember also that the pubs are currently closed except for takeaway food, and they were also subject to tier based restrictions, especially in places where case rates were high most of the time that data covers, so exposure was very low
		
Click to expand...

See post 15,737.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Just to add, these figures were from mid November last year when both pubs, schools etc were all open.
		
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https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...navirus-in-england-latest-data-shows-12136418

Actually obtained between 9th to 15th of November; I took your "from November" to be from November to current date.

According to statistics, 21.3% of the population is under 18.  If we accept that the vast majority of those attending school are under 18, 22.8% of common reported locations (schools) are accessible to 21.3% of the population, whilst 18.2% of commonly reported locations (supermarkets) are open to 100% of the population, and 1.6% of commonly reported locations (pubs) should only be accessible to 78.7% of the population.

I'm still seeing schools as a bigger issue.


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## GB72 (Feb 7, 2021)

Whether I go to the pub or not with no beer available would depend on the other restrictions on social contact at the time. If I can have a couple of people round for a meal then I would not be bothered. Would get a takeaway from the pub and eat at home with friends and a bottle of wine. If restrictions in meeting others are more limited, outdoors only for example, then I would go to the pub for the social interaction


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## fundy (Feb 7, 2021)

Has this no alcohol in pubs actually been substantiated or has it just snowballed from a guess in the torygraph?


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## road2ruin (Feb 7, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...navirus-in-england-latest-data-shows-12136418

Actually obtained between 9th to 15th of November; I took your "from November" to be from November to current date.

According to statistics, 21.3% of the population is under 18.  If we accept that the vast majority of those attending school are under 18, 22.8% of common reported locations (schools) are accessible to 21.3% of the population, whilst 18.2% of commonly reported locations (supermarkets) are open to 100% of the population, and 1.6% of commonly reported locations (pubs) should only be accessible to 78.7% of the population.

I'm still seeing schools as a bigger issue.
		
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I don’t disagree with any of that and would agree that transmission from schools was the biggest issue. The point of these figures was in response to the poster who said that pubs were a far bigger issue then supermarkets in terms of transmission.


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## larmen (Feb 7, 2021)

Also, supermarkets are essential to most of us, pubs and hospitality are nice to go there but can exist withou5.


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## GB72 (Feb 7, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...navirus-in-england-latest-data-shows-12136418

Actually obtained between 9th to 15th of November; I took your "from November" to be from November to current date.

According to statistics, 21.3% of the population is under 18.  If we accept that the vast majority of those attending school are under 18, 22.8% of common reported locations (schools) are accessible to 21.3% of the population, whilst 18.2% of commonly reported locations (supermarkets) are open to 100% of the population, and 1.6% of commonly reported locations (pubs) should only be accessible to 78.7% of the population.

I'm st
		
Click to expand...

Have schools not always been an issue regarding the spread of illnesses. Wherever I have worked, a number of colds, flu, stomach bugs etc that have spread through the office have started with someone whose kid picked it up at school. Not sure anything can be done about but seems to be a hurdle that we will have to face again


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## Old Skier (Feb 7, 2021)

fundy said:



			Has this no alcohol in pubs actually been substantiated or has it just snowballed from a guess in the torygraph?
		
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Not sure if it was Torygraph or Tashograph.


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## ExRabbit (Feb 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Just to add, these figures were from mid November last year when both pubs, schools etc were all open.
		
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We were in lockdown 2 from November 5th to December 2nd, so the pubs were closed except for takeaways.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Depends whether you're in Ireland or not ...
		
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Or Birmingham


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## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2021)

My grandsons are pushing for today to be declared as a 'snow day' to excuse them from schooling... 
Their mums ain't 'aving it though and there's some long chins to be seen  ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2021)

My Mrs has headed to her aunt V’s funeral today.  Will be very difficult for my wife supporting her mum as her mum didn’t see her twin sister once after March last year, and the home closed its doors to visitors - and that was so hard as they saw each other most days for their 90 yrs as they have always lived close.  Yet V still caught the virus and died of COVID-19.  I don’t really know how my MiL will manage today...

In my wife’s eyes her mum and aunt are both ‘heroes‘ of our time - less celebrated than some but in her eyes ’heroic’ nonetheless. My wife is very sad at her aunt‘s passing, and very sorrowful - indeed she is very angry - that her aunt V’s long and selfless life ended in this way, alone in solitary confinment in her room in the home, with no family with her for comfort and support.

The measure of the humanity of a society is how it treats it‘s vulnerable.  I’m afraid my wife thinks we failed her aunt.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 8, 2021)

Blue letters arrived today.
Jab on Wednesday for both of us.
Very pleased for Lady Doon as she is three years younger than me and we thought there might be a delay as she has only just turned 70


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## GreiginFife (Feb 8, 2021)

I must admit to being a little confused by all the mixed messaging that's flying around just now. 
My understanding (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here) was that lock downs and staying at home were for two primary outcomes. 1) to prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed (Protect the NHS) and 2) to stop people dying (Save lives). 
And the _means _to achieve these was to prevent the spread (Stay at Home). 

Now we have a group of vaccines that are proving, for the most part, to help us to work our way back to some normality. And that is good, positive news and should be treated as such. 

But, my confusion comes from the (admittedly media driven) the vaccine doesn't deal will with this variant, or that strain... And whilst I appreciate this in NOT positive news (yet the study sized do seem small, e.g, 2000 people in SA out of a population how big?) there are admissions that the vaccines STILL provide protection against severe illness, hospitalisation and death. 

Now, IF, and only IF, our primary levers in this were reduce pressure on the NHS (Protect the NHS) and prevent people dying (Save Lives) then WHY is the news that the vaccine actually still does achieve these things being treated so negatively? 

Yes, I get that the virus will still spread, but surely the reason for the lockdown was only to prevent the spread so as to stop 1 and 2 happening. 

yours
ConfusedinFife


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 8, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I must admit to being a little confused by all the mixed messaging that's flying around just now.
My understanding (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here) was that lock downs and staying at home were for two primary outcomes. 1) to prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed (Protect the NHS) and 2) to stop people dying (Save lives).
And the _means _to achieve these was to prevent the spread (Stay at Home).

Now we have a group of vaccines that are proving, for the most part, to help us to work our way back to some normality. And that is good, positive news and should be treated as such.

But, my confusion comes from the (admittedly media driven) the vaccine doesn't deal will with this variant, or that strain... And whilst I appreciate this in NOT positive news (yet the study sized do seem small, e.g, 2000 people in SA out of a population how big?) there are admissions that the vaccines STILL provide protection against severe illness, hospitalisation and death.

Now, IF, and only IF, our primary levers in this were reduce pressure on the NHS (Protect the NHS) and prevent people dying (Save Lives) then WHY is the news that the vaccine actually still does achieve these things being treated so negatively?

Yes, I get that the virus will still spread, but surely the reason for the lockdown was only to prevent the spread so as to stop 1 and 2 happening.

yours
ConfusedinFife
		
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1/ The media like to scare people. It gives them a headline, they are irresponsible
2/ The govt wants people to stick to distancing, staying home, washing hands etc for some time yet. At least until the first 9 groups have been jabbed, probably longer. A little scare every now and then keeps people on their toes to do this, asking nicely does not work for a lot of people sadly. The alternative is a drift in behaviour.

My views are pretty cynical on this but I don't think I am too far out of snyc


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## GB72 (Feb 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			1/ The media like to scare people. It gives them a headline, they are irresponsible
2/ The govt wants people to stick to distancing, staying home, washing hands etc for some time yet. At least until the first 9 groups have been jabbed, probably longer. A little scare every now and then keeps people on their toes to do this, asking nicely does not work for a lot of people sadly. The alternative is a drift in behaviour.

My views are pretty cynical on this but I don't think I am too far out of snyc
		
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It is one of the few times when I think that a bit of scare tactics is viable (though it should never be in such a way as to make people doubt if they want to be vaccinated). With a number of positive occurrences at the moment (Vaccine, infections down etc) it would be easy to become complacent and so a little nudge to keep people following the rules does no harm at the moment.


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## banjofred (Feb 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			1/ The media like to scare people. It gives them a headline, they are irresponsible
2/ The govt wants people to stick to distancing, staying home, washing hands etc for some time yet. At least until the first 9 groups have been jabbed, probably longer. A little scare every now and then keeps people on their toes to do this, asking nicely does not work for a lot of people sadly. The alternative is a drift in behaviour.

My views are pretty cynical on this but I don't think I am too far out of snyc
		
Click to expand...

I don't think they are cynical at all. I got slated a month or two ago by stating I thought closer to 50% of people were *breaking the rules in some way or another.*....at this point I'd say it's at least that much, maybe even 75%. I'm likely breaking the rules a hair this weekend....my wife's oldest sons wife died of cancer last Easter (36) and has twin daughters (8), they had stupidly put a house they bought in Huddersfield in her name...no will of course, even though they knew this was coming. It has finally gone through probate and he is desperate to sell it finally. We are going this weekend to help him clean the house/garden since the renters had trashed it. Not really with the rules.....but the guy needs some help.

It does look like the jabs are going well enough that I might get mine earlier than thought. I'm 63 and healthy (physically. Mentally, it's arguable).


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## GreiginFife (Feb 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			1/ The media like to scare people. It gives them a headline, they are irresponsible
2/ The govt wants people to stick to distancing, staying home, washing hands etc for some time yet. At least until the first 9 groups have been jabbed, probably longer. A little scare every now and then keeps people on their toes to do this, asking nicely does not work for a lot of people sadly. The alternative is a drift in behaviour.

My views are pretty cynical on this but I don't think I am too far out of snyc
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry I meant to make that post sound a lot more facetious than I clearly managed!


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 8, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Yeah, sorry I meant to make that post sound a lot more facetious than I clearly managed!
		
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Ha ha. I'm slow on the uptake today. Too cold in our factory


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



*Your post may be many things but caring isn’t one of them.*  I’m sure you and your wife did all you could under the circumstances. Condolences to your family
		
Click to expand...

My post reflects a terrible sadness in my wife's family - a sadness that has been experienced by 10s of thousands of families around the country and the globe - it is nothing more than that no matter that you think it may be many things...as for _'but caring isn't one of them' _- well...


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## Old Skier (Feb 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My posts reflects a terrible sadness in my wife's family - a sadness that has been experienced by 10s of thousands of families around the country and the globe - it is nothing more than that no matter that you think it may be many things...as for _'but caring isn't one of them' _- well...
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps it read the wrong way, it was meant as you appeared to be a caring person. Apologies if it read differently


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## williamalex1 (Feb 8, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I must admit to being a little confused by all the mixed messaging that's flying around just now.
My understanding (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here) was that lock downs and staying at home were for two primary outcomes. 1) to prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed (Protect the NHS) and 2) to stop people dying (Save lives).
And the _means _to achieve these was to prevent the spread (Stay at Home).

Now we have a group of vaccines that are proving, for the most part, to help us to work our way back to some normality. And that is good, positive news and should be treated as such.

But, my confusion comes from the (admittedly media driven) the vaccine doesn't deal will with this variant, or that strain... And whilst I appreciate this in NOT positive news (yet the study sized do seem small, e.g, 2000 people in SA out of a population how big?) there are admissions that the vaccines STILL provide protection against severe illness, hospitalisation and death.

Now, IF, and only IF, our primary levers in this were reduce pressure on the NHS (Protect the NHS) and prevent people dying (Save Lives) then WHY is the news that the vaccine actually still does achieve these things being treated so negatively?

Yes, I get that the virus will still spread, but surely the reason for the lockdown was only to prevent the spread so as to stop 1 and 2 happening.

yours
ConfusedinFife
		
Click to expand...

Confused here too, I may be a bit mixed up, but the time line doesn't seem right, when was the Oxford vaccine actually approved, when did they get their supply, when were the vaccines given, did they wait the 3 weeks . All seems rather rushed to me.


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## Ethan (Feb 8, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I must admit to being a little confused by all the mixed messaging that's flying around just now.
My understanding (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here) was that lock downs and staying at home were for two primary outcomes. 1) to prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed (Protect the NHS) and 2) to stop people dying (Save lives).
And the _means _to achieve these was to prevent the spread (Stay at Home).

Now we have a group of vaccines that are proving, for the most part, to help us to work our way back to some normality. And that is good, positive news and should be treated as such.

But, my confusion comes from the (admittedly media driven) the vaccine doesn't deal will with this variant, or that strain... And whilst I appreciate this in NOT positive news (yet the study sized do seem small, e.g, 2000 people in SA out of a population how big?) there are admissions that the vaccines STILL provide protection against severe illness, hospitalisation and death.

Now, IF, and only IF, our primary levers in this were reduce pressure on the NHS (Protect the NHS) and prevent people dying (Save Lives) then WHY is the news that the vaccine actually still does achieve these things being treated so negatively?

Yes, I get that the virus will still spread, but surely the reason for the lockdown was only to prevent the spread so as to stop 1 and 2 happening.

yours
ConfusedinFife
		
Click to expand...

If we had a society full of self-aware and socially responsible people, the messaging could have been more nuanced.

The basic objectives were as you describe. The measures put in place were, arguably, to allow a limited but controllable spread, later modified to trying to stop spread entirely.

Vaccination will start to have an effect when a decent proportion is vaccinated, but that presents a danger where the vaccinated go back to normal and expose those who are not yet vaccinated to either harm by spread, or piss them off by having a good time they can't have.

Part of the concern is that further mutation is inevitable and SAv2.0 might be worse again. Part of it is also that long Covid often arises from mild to moderate disease, so some of those who 'get away' with not a severe illness will likely still have downstream problems. And some of those who get mild Covid will spread to unvaccinated who can still die or get severe illness.


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## GB72 (Feb 8, 2021)

There does seem to be some important wording in the text of the articles about the impact of the vaccine on the SA variant. The concern appears to be on the impact on mild and moderate cases. Yes, the ideal would be to have a vaccine that stopped them as well but surely at present the priority is to do something about the serious cases that cause hospitalisation and death. If it has an impact there then I would see that as more than worthwhile.


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## larmen (Feb 8, 2021)

Apparently Pfizer/BionTech is working against the GB and SA variant of the virus.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2021)

Three of our neighbours are nurses on the 'front line'... 
Witnessing the impact covid is having on both them and their families...
If ramping up scare tactics helps them out in any way go for it...


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## larmen (Feb 8, 2021)

Our local community centre seems to have become a covid testing centre from today. Didn’t see anyone but a bouncer out there, I always thought these testing centres are quite busy?


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## Ethan (Feb 8, 2021)

larmen said:



			Our local community centre seems to have become a covid testing centre from today. Didn’t see anyone but a bouncer out there, I always thought these testing centres are quite busy?
		
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Maybe still setting up equipment and systems, and haven't got vaccine yet.


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## larmen (Feb 8, 2021)

It vaccination, just testing. I think.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 8, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I don't think they are cynical at all. I got slated a month or two ago by stating I thought closer to 50% of people were *breaking the rules in some way or another.*....at this point I'd say it's at least that much, maybe even 75%. I'm likely breaking the rules a hair this weekend....my wife's oldest sons wife died of cancer last Easter (36) and has twin daughters (8), they had stupidly put a house they bought in Huddersfield in her name...no will of course, even though they knew this was coming. It has finally gone through probate and he is desperate to sell it finally. We are going this weekend to help him clean the house/garden since the renters had trashed it. Not really with the rules.....but the guy needs some help.

It does look like the jabs are going well enough that I might get mine earlier than thought. I'm 63 and healthy (physically. Mentally, it's arguable).
		
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Your not the first to get ripped to bits on here for suggesting breaking the rules is the norm. For me there are instances when folk have broken the rules but certain situations arise when that has unfortunately has to happen. Contrary to popular belief there are some people out there that are not stupid, and should not be put in the same category as those who attend  a 1 year olds birthday party or any other kind of party. 
That said. lockdown to protect the NHS? Has that happened. Not by a long shout and quite frankly I think it is scandalous. I know who I blame. And political comments are not allowed so I will leave that there. We are in a lock down yet B and Q , Dunelm Mills etc etc are open to the thousands that go, yet it is wrong to go to your relatives house to clean it up. How’s that right.
As Jim Royal would say “My Rrrrs”.
Re the Vaccines, even to an idiot surely they know one vaccine will not protect you against a virus that has ever changing strains, so why the negativity, it is beyond me.
Good luck with the house clean up this weekend. Give missis BF a cuddle this weekend it’s gonna be a tough un.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 8, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358808820294778881
Lowest figures on a Monday since 30th November 👏👏


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358826266250653696


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



*Your not the first to get ripped to bits on here for suggesting breaking the rules is the norm.* For me there are instances when folk have broken the rules but certain situations arise when that has unfortunately has to happen. Contrary to popular belief there are some people out there that are not stupid, and should not be put in the same category as those who attend  a 1 year olds birthday party or any other kind of party.
That said. lockdown to protect the NHS? Has that happened. Not by a long shout and quite frankly I think it is scandalous. I know who I blame. And political comments are not allowed so I will leave that there. We are in a lock down yet B and Q , Dunelm Mills etc etc are open to the thousands that go, yet it is wrong to go to your relatives house to clean it up. How’s that right.
As Jim Royal would say “My Rrrrs”.
Re the Vaccines, even to an idiot surely they know one vaccine will not protect you against a virus that has ever changing strains, so why the negativity, it is beyond me.
Good luck with the house clean up this weekend. Give missis BF a cuddle this weekend it’s gonna be a tough un.
		
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Come on Tash! Talk about over react, nobody has been “ripped to bits” but coming on and plucking figures out of the air with no more than “a feeling” to back them figures up is asking to be questioned.

We all see things differently and no doubt some places/age groups etc are worse than others, but if you are going to quote figures back them up with facts.

The same can also be said about breaking rules, I and others agreed we’d do the same as you when you broke the rules, it still didn’t make you or I correct, taking ownership is different than saying it’s ok “cos others do”


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## Tashyboy (Feb 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Come on Tash! Talk about over react, nobody has been “ripped to bits” but coming on and plucking figures out of the air with no more than “a feeling” to back them figures up is asking to be questioned.

We all see things differently and no doubt some places/age groups etc are worse than others, but if you are going to quote figures back them up with facts.

The same can also be said about breaking rules, I and others agreed we’d do the same as you when you broke the rules, it still didn’t make you or I correct, taking ownership is different than saying it’s ok “cos others do”
		
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Ave not quoted any figures or facts, although BF did. And my post was aimed more at BF having to “ break rules”, not me going to have a Covid test. My parents have broken rules and I have pulled them up on it more than once. Now they have had a vaccine, according to them there indestructible. There not.
It seems to me that BF has taken ownership of what he has done and so did I, and only speaking for me, I didn’t do it coz others do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 8, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Ave not quoted any figures or facts, although BF did. And my post was aimed more at BF having to “ break rules”, not me going to have a Covid test. My parents have broken rules and I have pulled them up on it more than once. Now they have had a vaccine, according to them there indestructible. There not.
It seems to me that BF has taken ownership of what he has done and so did I, and only speaking for me, I didn’t do it coz others do.
		
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But nobody has been “ripped to bits” regardless of how they did or intend to break the rules.


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## larmen (Feb 8, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358808820294778881
Lowest figures on a Monday since 30th November 👏👏


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358826266250653696

Click to expand...

Do they mean reach? Like 91% of over 80s have been vaccinated?
My understanding of take-up would be that 91% of the people that have been offered the vaccine have taken it, with no measure of how many did get the offer and how many didn’t.


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## DanFST (Feb 8, 2021)

If I see another 70+ person complaining we are still locked up now they are vaccinated, I will lose my rag.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			If I see another 70+ person complaining we are still locked up now they are vaccinated, I will lose my rag.
		
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Being vaccinated doesn't give you the 'right to roam'...


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## DanFST (Feb 8, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Being vaccinated doesn't give you the 'right to roam'...
		
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Nor the right to moan!


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## banjofred (Feb 8, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			But nobody has been “ripped to bits” regardless of how they did or intend to break the rules.
		
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You are just arguing....for the sake of arguing. Give it a rest....eh?


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## Ethan (Feb 8, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I don't think they are cynical at all. I got slated a month or two ago by stating I thought closer to 50% of people were *breaking the rules in some way or another.*....at this point I'd say it's at least that much, maybe even 75%. I'm likely breaking the rules a hair this weekend....my wife's oldest sons wife died of cancer last Easter (36) and has twin daughters (8), they had stupidly put a house they bought in Huddersfield in her name...no will of course, even though they knew this was coming. It has finally gone through probate and he is desperate to sell it finally. We are going this weekend to help him clean the house/garden since the renters had trashed it. Not really with the rules.....but the guy needs some help.

It does look like the jabs are going well enough that I might get mine earlier than thought. I'm 63 and healthy (physically. Mentally, it's arguable).
		
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Breaking the rules is on a spectrum. Going out for a short walk twice in one day is against the rules, but if you don't encounter anybody, doesn't pose a risk. Having a wedding party with several hundred people at a school in N. London is a bit worse and poses a clear risk of a major outbreak.

You are breaking the rules by a little more than a hair, in my opinion. And, not to put too fine a point on it, you aren't a spring chicken any more. If you had the vax 3 weeks ago, then still breaking the rules, but risk to you markedly reduced. Are you happy handling stuff, light switches, door handles and who knows what else that the tenants have all handled? I wouldn't be happy in the same position.


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## SteveW86 (Feb 8, 2021)

During the first lockdown it was pretty normal to cross the street when out for a walk if you came across someone in the opposite direction. I still see an element of that at the moment when our and about, but is this needed? Are people in here still doing it?

Passing someone a metre away outside is pretty minimal risk?

I appreciate the fact the reducing the risk as much as possible is the best thing to do, so crossing the road still good practise to keep doing.


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## fundy (Feb 8, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			During the first lockdown it was pretty normal to cross the street when out for a walk if you came across someone in the opposite direction. I still see an element of that at the moment when our and about, but is this needed? Are people in here still doing it?

Passing someone a metre away outside is pretty minimal risk?

I appreciate the fact the reducing the risk as much as possible is the best thing to do, so crossing the road still good practise to keep doing.
		
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away from the seafront, almost everyone seems to do it as a matter of course, with a polite hello and thank you

down at the seafront almost no one seems to bother trying

we do it, but mainly to avoid other dogs with Poppy!!!


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## Paperboy (Feb 8, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			During the first lockdown it was pretty normal to cross the street when out for a walk if you came across someone in the opposite direction. I still see an element of that at the moment when our and about, but is this needed? Are people in here still doing it?

Passing someone a metre away outside is pretty minimal risk?

I appreciate the fact the reducing the risk as much as possible is the best thing to do, so crossing the road still good practise to keep doing.
		
Click to expand...

Yep if I'm out and about I do this, or if not possible pull the snood up until past them. I've done it for this long might as well keep to the good habits!


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## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Nor the right to moan!
		
Click to expand...


As I understand it 'oldies' are getting jabbed to enable the speeding up of a return to 'normality' for us all...
Quite happy to put up with over 70s moaning if only to cover for my own moaning on not yet getting summonsed myself ...


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## road2ruin (Feb 8, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			During the first lockdown it was pretty normal to cross the street when out for a walk if you came across someone in the opposite direction. I still see an element of that at the moment when our and about, but is this needed? Are people in here still doing it?

Passing someone a metre away outside is pretty minimal risk?

I appreciate the fact the reducing the risk as much as possible is the best thing to do, so crossing the road still good practise to keep doing.
		
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If someone wants to cross the road to avoid me then that’s fine however there’s more risk in crossing the road than there is passing someone for a split second on a pavement so, no, I don’t cross.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2021)

fundy said:



			away from the seafront, almost everyone seems to do it as a matter of course, with a polite hello and thank you

down at the seafront almost no one seems to bother trying

we do it, but mainly to avoid other dogs with Poppy!!!
		
Click to expand...


During lockdown #1 traffic was fairly light and stepping into the road, to give room to others, was a reasonably safe proposition... During current lockdown road traffic is at 'normal' levels and motorists aren't exactly known for cutting slack to others... Reducing space/opportunities to make room for other walkers... IMHO of course...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Nor the right to moan!
		
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But you've not been jabbed yet 😉


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## Imurg (Feb 8, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			During the first lockdown it was pretty normal to cross the street when out for a walk if you came across someone in the opposite direction. I still see an element of that at the moment when our and about, but is this needed? Are people in here still doing it?

Passing someone a metre away outside is pretty minimal risk?

I appreciate the fact the reducing the risk as much as possible is the best thing to do, so crossing the road still good practise to keep doing.
		
Click to expand...

Seems to be the normal around here but, as has been said, the risk of transmission in the second or two that you're less than 2 metres apart if you walk on the same side has to be so ridiculously low that I doubt its worth mentioning.
I don't know for certain and am quite prepared to be put right but I don't see a necessity to cross or even step into the road.


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## DanFST (Feb 8, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			As I understand it 'oldies' are getting jabbed to enable the speeding up of a return to 'normality' for us all...
Quite happy to put up with over 70s moaning if only to cover for my own moaning on not yet getting summonsed myself ...
		
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That's the goal! However if there's massive numbers of over 70 vaccinated orgies springing up. Young people will not be pleased. 

Only mention it as 2 Doris' were ranting on local radio that they shouldn't have to stay in because they just got vaccinated. (wrong on so many levels)


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 8, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			During the first lockdown it was pretty normal to cross the street when out for a walk if you came across someone in the opposite direction. I still see an element of that at the moment when our and about, but is this needed? *Are people in here still doing it?*

Passing someone a metre away outside is pretty minimal risk?

I appreciate the fact the reducing the risk as much as possible is the best thing to do, so crossing the road still good practise to keep doing.
		
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Still pretty much the norm round this way, with the majority of folk thanking one another for the courtesy and the majority of runners and cyclists not thinking that courtesy applies to them.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 8, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Still pretty much the norm round this way, with the majority of folk thanking one another for the courtesy and the majority of runners and cyclists not thinking that courtesy applies to them.
		
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If we are naming and shaming then in our experience dog walkers come bottom of the class for acknowledging/accommodating others... Especially the professional ones...


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 8, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			If we are naming and shaming then in our experience dog walkers come bottom of the class for acknowledging/accommodating others... Especially the professional ones...
		
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Not particularly naming & shaming, just pointing out who tends to do what round this way, as per the OP's question.


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## fundy (Feb 8, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			If we are naming and shaming then in our experience dog walkers come bottom of the class for acknowledging/accommodating others... Especially the professional ones...
		
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glad im an amateur


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## SocketRocket (Feb 8, 2021)

DanFST said:



			That's the goal! *However if there's massive numbers of over 70 vaccinated orgies springing up. Young people will not be pleased.*

Only mention it as 2 Doris' were ranting on local radio that they shouldn't have to stay in because they just got vaccinated. (wrong on so many levels)
		
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Is there a blue pill vaccination as well.


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## DRW (Feb 8, 2021)

Israel data is getting better. certainly helps lifting my spirits and even though we have a mix of vaccines, hope we follow the trend they have set:-

Yuval Harpaz on Twitter: "A report from Sourasky medical center shows that most of the #COVID19 hospitalizations are unvaccinated. Here are the materials, translated to English. In parentheses- floor(N). Thanks @LittleMoiz https://t.co/NLwMAa8BOP" / Twitter 



מואיז הקטן ® on Twitter: "@erlichya @IritBerman כמה שאני אוהב את הגרפים הללו...(-: . https://t.co/VZrQmyjQYd" / Twitter 





Bring on the light


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## williamalex1 (Feb 8, 2021)

I haven't shaved for 4 days now, the first time in 53 years, my beard isn't ginger anymore


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## larmen (Feb 8, 2021)

Austria 'opened up' again and the pictures look 'crowded'.
Of course, the media isn't going to show the masses behaving, but the 'few' that are trying to go shopping looking like a version of Oxford street.

One thing they do is demanding a negative covid test for some services like hair dresser, pedicure, ... .


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 8, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Seems to be the normal around here but, as has been said, the risk of transmission in the second or two that you're less than 2 metres apart if you walk on the same side has to be so ridiculously low that I doubt its worth mentioning.
I don't know for certain and am quite prepared to be put right but I don't see a necessity to cross or even step into the road.
		
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As you wish. Personally, I avoid the possibility of breathing in someone's expelled air. 
I appreciate it is very low risk that that will happen in a normal "passing" ,
but last time I looked, no risk is better than a very very small risk😀


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## Ethan (Feb 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As you wish. Personally, I avoid the possibility of breathing in someone's expelled air.
I appreciate it is very low risk that that will happen in a normal "passing" ,
but last time I looked, no risk is better than a very very small risk😀
		
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There is no such thing as 'no risk', there is only exchanging one sort of risk for another. Some people are more comfortable with, or unaware of, certain risks in preference to certain other risks.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 9, 2021)

fundy said:



			glad im an amateur 

Click to expand...

These days I am just a wannabee cyclist/jogger but it still 'grinds my gears' that folk in those groups remain as forum open season targets...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			During the first lockdown it was pretty normal to cross the street when out for a walk if you came across someone in the opposite direction. I still see an element of that at the moment when our and about, but is this needed? Are people in here still doing it?

Passing someone a metre away outside is pretty minimal risk?

I appreciate the fact the reducing the risk as much as possible is the best thing to do, so crossing the road still good practise to keep doing.
		
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Yes...we still often cross the road if pedestrian walking our way or busy the side we are on - and if pavement is narrow and no where to stop and stand back and wait - if it is safe we will walk out onto the road to pass.

In our town this still seems to be the general practice that most still adhere to. Unfortunately for those feeling picked out I still do get a bit irked that those who are less likely to ‘do their bit’ are those out running. It seems they are unable to stop and step aside or wait.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I haven't shaved for 4 days now, the first time in 53 years, my beard isn't ginger anymore 

Click to expand...

You must have been an odd-looking toddler Billy 🥰


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is no such thing as 'no risk', there is only exchanging one sort of risk for another. Some people are more comfortable with, or unaware of, certain risks in preference to certain other risks.
		
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Well, that is one of those statements that is true, but at the same time will not be true when talking about a specific.
Sorry, but there is such a thing as no risk. It's a matter of agreeing what it is the risk of.
Imurg and I were talking  about the risk of catching the virus - when passing in the street. You yourself have promoted the view that outdoors the risk is infin...infant...very very small😀
So, if you put yourself 4 or 5 metres from each other .......all right there may be a theoretical millions to one risk even then.
But to return to your general statement..There is no such........
There is.
If  I don't travel by getting on a plane, there is no risk that I will die by being *in *a plane that crashes.
(It's a different question as to whether I should accept the low risk involved if I do travel by plane.)
And to example the situation your are rightly scathing  about - the London wedding party at a school- If you didn't attend it, then it's true to say there is no risk of catching Covid from it .
But, of course, everyday life raises a risk of something happening that you don't intend for it to happen, which is what I think you said.


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## Ethan (Feb 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, that is one of those statements that is true, but at the same time will not be true when talking about a specific.
Sorry, but there is such a thing as no risk. It's a matter of agreeing what it is the risk of.
Imurg and I were talking  about the risk of catching the virus - when passing in the street. You yourself have promoted the view that outdoors the risk is infin...infant...very very small😀
So, if you put yourself 4 or 5 metres from each other .......all right there may be a theoretical millions to one risk even then.
But to return to your general statement..There is no such........
There is.
If  I don't travel by getting on a plane, there is no risk that I will die by being *in *a plane that crashes.
(It's a different question as to whether I should accept the low risk involved if I do travel by plane.)
And to example the situation your are rightly scathing  about - the London wedding party at a school- If you didn't attend it, then it's true to say there is no risk of catching Covid from it .
But, of course, everyday life raises a risk of something happening that you don't intend for it to happen, which is what I think you said.
		
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I think you know what I mean. If you sit at home watching Netflix rather than leaving your home, you exchange the risk of contacting a case or getting knocked down by a bus for the risks associated with more sedentary activity and no contact with other humans. Life is not risk-free. People are very bad at trading off different risks, and Covid vaccination is an excellent example. People claim to be concerned about the safety of the vaccination whilst ignoring the ICUs full of people with the alternative.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

In a public context I may well be able to manage 100% the risk to me from my *own *perspective, but I can do little to manage the risk that the actions and behaviours of others present to me.  I can keep out of their way as best I can - but I can't stop someone following me or coughing close to me if that is what they choose to do.


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## GB72 (Feb 9, 2021)

Amazing how your view of a situation changes when you get some detail about the situation behind the headlines. 

Headline yesterday is that Rutland has the highest level of covid infection in the UK from being one of the lowest. This was an obvious cause for concern as all of my family live in Rutland. Anyway, as it transpires, there is is a significant outbreak in Stocken Prison which, coupled with the low population of the county, has bumped the figures up to nearly 500 per 100,000. My thoughts are with all those at risk in the prison but it just goes to show that a bit of digging can make the headlines figures appear very different.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You must have been an odd-looking toddler Billy 🥰
		
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LOL, 53 years ago I was 21 and playing in a 60s band, we all decided to grow Manfred Man type beards  . Sadly it wasn't a good look for most of us , my beard grew in ginger reddish but my hair was dark brown, the lead guitarist with jet black hair was the only one that look the part. the drummer looked like the skinny guy from Scoobydoo.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 9, 2021)

This is not a dig aimed at anyone on here but this pandemic has shown who are selfless and who are selfish of the people I know.

I know people who follow past the letter of the guidelines

People who bend them

People who smash them

And people who just do what's right but if allowed a bit they take it as a restbite 

As much as moan about the gov for their handling their screwed either way with some people's attuide


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## larmen (Feb 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This is not a dig aimed at anyone on here but this pandemic has shown who are selfless and who are selfish of the people I know.

I know people who follow past the letter of the guidelines

People who bend them

People who smash them

And people who just do what's right but if allowed a bit they take it as a restbite

As much as moan about the gov for their handling their screwed either way with some people's attuide
		
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I feel that as a society in lockdown we do well, but the more is released the more they bend and break.

Like driving 10% above the speed limit:
22 in a 20, 33 in a 30, 44 in a 40, ... 77 on a dual carriage way but 100 on the motorway


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## GB72 (Feb 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This is not a dig aimed at anyone on here but this pandemic has shown who are selfless and who are selfish of the people I know.

I know people who follow past the letter of the guidelines

People who bend them

People who smash them

And people who just do what's right but if allowed a bit they take it as a restbite

As much as moan about the gov for their handling their screwed either way with some people's attuide
		
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I think we all know people in most groups. Luckily I do not know many who have no regard for the rules. Most people I know grumble but comply, though there are a few that bend them. I would class myself as someone who does what is right and makes the most of any relaxation as restbite. I know that there are all sorts of arguments about the damage that Xmas day did and I am sympathetic to all of them but having not had any outside social interaction for 2 months before and none for 2 months after, that one day did loads to bolster my own mental health.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

larmen said:



			I feel that as a society in lockdown we do well, but the more is released the more they bend and break.

Like driving 10% above the speed limit:
22 in a 20, 33 in a 30, 44 in a 40, ... 77 on a dual carriage way but 100 on the motorway
		
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They give us an inch or two and some of us take a mile...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2021)

Did the Kent Covid variation turn out to be 70% more transferable or 10% or something else.  I've tried to find out but I can only see vague statements.  I'm really not a conspiracy theorist but surely the specialists will have worked out what it is by now.


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## Ethan (Feb 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Did the Kent Covid variation turn out to be 70% more transferable or 10% or something else.  I've tried to find out but I can only see vague statements.  I'm really not a conspiracy theorist but surely the specialists will have worked out what it is by now.
		
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Thought to be more transmissible but not more pathogenic, so risk of faster rise in cases with it. Dominant strain in some parts of the UK and soon will be everywhere else too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359141306140917764
With the rate of new infections , hospital admissions dropping plus 13 mill having the vaccine do we think there will be a change to the easing timeline roadmap ?


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## larmen (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			With the rate of new infections , hospital admissions dropping plus 13 mill having the vaccine do we think there will be a change to the easing timeline roadmap ?
		
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Hope so, even if it is only the schools. Pure selfish reasons on my side.
As a compromise I am happy for older vaccinated people to go and play outdoor sports like bools ;-)


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## GB72 (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359141306140917764
With the rate of new infections , hospital admissions dropping plus 13 mill having the vaccine do we think there will be a change to the easing timeline roadmap ?
		
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Nope, the schools were told that they would have 2 weeks to prepare and with the review being on 15th, I cannot see much benefit in rushing a decision that was due to be announced on 22nd. As for anything else, I think that we will get a 2 week period at least to see what difference the return to schools makes before any serious relaxations are made. After all, it could be argued that the return of people to education was a significant factor in the second wave but that could not be proven due to their already having been relaxation in other areas. This gives the ideal opportunity to see the impact of schools etc on infection rates when they are opened against of backdrop of everything else being locked down.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Nope, the schools were told that they would have 2 weeks to prepare and with the review being on 15th, I cannot see much benefit in rushing a decision that was due to be announced on 22nd. As for anything else, *I think that we will get a 2 week period at least to see what difference the return to schools makes before any serious relaxations are made. *After all, it could be argued that the return of people to education was a significant factor in the second wave but that could not be proven due to their already having been relaxation in other areas. This gives the ideal opportunity to see the impact of schools etc on infection rates when they are opened against of backdrop of everything else being locked down.
		
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I guess it depends on what the serious relaxations are - that’s over 6 weeks away and can certainly see a lot of the outdoor activities being allowed again at the same time as schools open 

It’s going to be hard to keep people locked away and businesses closed when the numbers keep dropping


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## Kellfire (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess it depends on what the serious relaxations are - that’s over 6 weeks away and can certainly see a lot of the outdoor activities being allowed again at the same time as schools open

It’s going to be hard to keep people locked away and businesses closed when the numbers keep dropping
		
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They’re dropping partly because we’re locked away. Stopping that once numbers show a good drop is counter productive if done as a knee jerk attempt to improve popularity which is what has been done before during this pandemic.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			They’re dropping partly because we’re locked away. Stopping that once numbers show a good drop is counter productive if done as a knee jerk attempt to improve popularity which is what has been done before during this pandemic.
		
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Nothing will be knee jerk  and certainly not about popularity , there has been a point where things have to move on - we cannot continue too much longer to be locked down. Both financially and mentally the population needs to move forward. 

In a weeks time all those vunerable will have had the vaccine ( well offered ) the NHS will have been protected - both the main reasons we went into the lockdown. It’s going to be very hard for them to justify continuing the current level of lockdown beyond the beginning of March


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

Not seeing friends as frequently as we'd have liked and would have done in normal times.

And so to earlier today I hear from my wife that the partner of one of our closest friends - one of my wife's 'besties' who is also mum of one of my daughter's best friends - collapsed and died in town yesterday.  61...

He did have a health issue - perhaps needing surgery at some time - but not one that his consultant thought worth worrying about at the moment - something that he could manage.  We don't know if this was in any way connected, but this is one hell of a shock for us.  We saw them when out for a walk only a couple of weeks back...we were in town and all had a laugh about not recognising each other 'behind the masks'.

Nothing to do with the virus as such - but how the pandemic has completely thrown aspects of our lives into levels of disarray...and what that can mean.  And I look to myself...and reflect that we just don't know what is round the corner of life.


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## azazel (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Nothing will be knee jerk  and certainly not about popularity
		
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That's a very, very bold statement.


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## GB72 (Feb 9, 2021)

For once I am on the side of being locked down here, which is not usual for me. it is my opinion, and I would not even call it an informed one, that schools and universities were a major contributor to the second wave. Yes there are weather factors etc but before the schools went back, we were going to shops, going to the pub, meeting friends indoors with no real impact on numbers. I am not saying this by way of complaint etc but I think this is an ideal opportunity to assess if that was the case by looking at the return of schools in isolation and, if so, look how to deal with it. 

I will also profess to having a biased opinion on this as, aside from seeing my friends and getting my hair cut, I can cope without everything else and those are probably the last 2 things that will be allowed.


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## Kellfire (Feb 9, 2021)

azazel said:



			That's a very, very bold statement.
		
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And probably totally false going on past decisions. Lovely family Christmas, anyone?


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## chrisd (Feb 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They give us an inch or two and some of us take a mile...
		
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But at least we can do the mile quicker 😁


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## Imurg (Feb 9, 2021)

The thing that will slow down the lifting of restrictions is that this time they HAVE to get it right.
We all know that we can't afford another lockdown both mentally and financially. 
Its going to be slow and it should be slow.


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## GB72 (Feb 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The thing that will slow down the lifting of restrictions is that this time they HAVE to get it right.
We all know that we can't afford another lockdown both mentally and financially.
Its going to be slow and it should be slow.
		
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I very much agree with this. With the vaccination program in full swing, I suspect that most of the country see this as the last ever lockdown (and I am not sure what other option there is if vaccination does not work). As such, this is the one where relaxation of restrictions has to be right as, quite rightly I think, people will not take another lockdown after this.


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## bobmac (Feb 9, 2021)

The way I see it....When the last lockdown restrictions were eased, nobody had the vaccine. In a month from now, the majority of the over 60's will have had the vaccine, including medical staff, so less numbers in hospital and more healthy staff to care for them.
Win win


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I very much agree with this. With the vaccination program in full swing, I suspect that most of the country see this as the last ever lockdown (and I am not sure what other option there is if vaccination does not work). As such, this is the one where relaxation of restrictions has to be right as, quite rightly I think, people will not take another lockdown after this.
		
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It’s going to be a very fine balance - currently we are locked down to protect the vunerable and also to ensure the NHS doesn’t get overcrowded because of the venerable catching the virus and having to be hospitalised. 

If measures are in place to ease both those  restrictions will need to be eased and probably in the same way they did in May or imo a bit more relaxed except for pubs and restaurants which will be later - it’s a very fine balance.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I very much agree with this. With the vaccination program in full swing, I suspect that most of the country see this as the last ever lockdown (*and I am not sure what other option there is if vaccination does not work*). As such, this is the one where relaxation of restrictions has to be right as, quite rightly I think, people will not take another lockdown after this.
		
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Fingers crossed that we don't have to think about that, cause there will come a time, like it or not, where a majority of people will flat our ignore any further lockdown, no matter what the consequences in terms of hospitalization and deaths will be.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I very much agree with this. With the vaccination program in full swing, I suspect that most of the country see this as the last ever lockdown (and I am not sure what other option there is if vaccination does not work). As such, this is the one where relaxation of restrictions has to be right as, quite rightly I think, people will not take another lockdown after this.
		
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I am inclined to agree...except...if _people_ _will not take another lockdown_ then what would they take - what would be deemed acceptable. 

Because if despite vaccination we find virus transmission racing away again, and pressure on the NHS building inexorably towards overload, what do the people expect to happen...all very well us going in a huff and Brenda exclaiming _'not another lockdown...' _but unfortunately the virus does not to mass public pistofficity listen.

All the frustrations, words and wishful thinking in the world will not make things better and right - by our actions and behaviours will we be judged...and that's it.


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## road2ruin (Feb 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am inclined to agree...except...if _people_ _will not take another lockdown_ then what would they take - what would be deemed acceptable.

Because if despite vaccination we find virus transmission racing away again, and pressure on the NHS building inexorably towards overload, what do the people expect to happen...all very well us going in a huff and Brenda exclaiming _'not another lockdown...' _but unfortunately the virus does not to mass public pistofficity listen.

All the frustrations, words and wishful thinking in the world will not make things better and right - by our actions and behaviours will we be judged...and that's it.
		
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The issue would be that we have a vaccine so if that doesn't work then what do we do? We cannot stay in perpetual lockdown cycles so IF (and it's an unlikely if with any luck) the vaccines didn't work I just cannot see a lot of people complying. I think this would be different to people 'going off in a huff', this would be our main weapon against the weapon has failed and we cannot socially or economically go into lockdown again especially for a virus that doesn't (fortunately) affect the majority of people in a severe way.


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## drdel (Feb 9, 2021)

The virus ìs world-wide and will mutate. Some of the many variations will be insignificant!  Some may prove troublesome and cause leadtime delays before effective vaccine modifications come on stream. 

Viruses do not listen to statements like "...the public won't take more ĺockdowns..." : we will be governed by the slowest nations before 'normal' means what it did.


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## bobmac (Feb 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The issue would be that we have a vaccine so *if that doesn't work then what do we do?*

Click to expand...

The vaccines do work


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			The virus ìs world-wide and will mutate. Some of the many variations will be insignificant!  Some may prove troublesome and cause leadtime delays before effective vaccine modifications come on stream.

Viruses do not listen to statements like "...the public won't take more ĺockdowns..." : we will be governed by the slowest nations before 'normal' means what it did.
		
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I'd find it extremely unlikely to think that you'd find a single person who would think that. It's just plainly a statement, there will come a point in time where people won't accept not seeing friends and families as they wish. Opening of bars, restaurants events etc are things that are more easily enforced to keep closed, but I'd like to see (not really) what a lockdown would look like if it kept on through to May/June. I don't envisage a very high compliant rate.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 9, 2021)

Bit of relief for us, daughter in laws consultantbhas decided she can have the jab and is booked in to have it tomorrow. I'm guessing it could make her pretty rough for a couple of days but thats got to be better than the alternative


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## road2ruin (Feb 9, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The vaccines do work
		
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I said ‘if’.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I said ‘if’.
		
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If my aunty had a willy she'd be my uncle.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 9, 2021)

I hate lockdown but would rather an extra few weeks than undo all the hard work and "sacrifices" so far.

I've finished my first 1000 piece jigsaw and have started the guitar again - little things that break the day up or I'd go nuts.


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## D-S (Feb 9, 2021)

Patients in hospital now 26k from peak on 18/1 at 39k - dropping now at a rate of 1k per day. The 'overwhelmed NHS' risk is receding fast.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I hate lockdown but would rather an extra few weeks than undo all the hard work and "sacrifices" so far.

I've finished my first 1000 piece jigsaw and have started the guitar again - little things that break the day up or I'd go nuts.
		
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How are your fingertips with the guitar strings.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How are your fingertips with the guitar strings.
		
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Well I did get some "nice" callouses but they've all gone! As it turns out though it's not too bad and I can play as long as I want to without too much discomfort. Not that I play for long!!

I was going through an online lessons course and practicing chord changes a lot so maybe got a bit stuck/bored. At the moment I'm just learning an easy song a week and trying to nail it. So currently it's Bob Marley's Three Little Birds and today managed to play along (and "sing") to the original which I was quite chuffed with


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think you know what I mean. If you sit at home watching Netflix rather than leaving your home, you exchange the risk of contacting a case or getting knocked down by a bus for the risks associated with more sedentary activity and no contact with other humans. Life is not risk-free. People are very bad at trading off different risks, and Covid vaccination is an excellent example. People claim to be concerned about the safety of the vaccination whilst ignoring the ICUs full of people with the alternative.
		
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Agree. But you did post in reply to my "no risk" statement , when I think you knew what I meant. 😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess it depends on what the serious relaxations are - that’s over 6 weeks away and can certainly see a lot of the outdoor activities being allowed again at the same time as schools open

It’s going to be hard to keep people locked away and businesses closed when the numbers keep dropping
		
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Yes, but they are only dropping because of the restrictions( with a little help from vaccinations,?)
If they are relaxed too soon, we may be seeing the figures start to go the  other way.
I think this time, the change will be more measured.
But, yes the vaccinations are a big difference,.

As an aside, we have the figures for those vaccinated. I had  a letter from a friend today - late seventies- had been in hospital over Xmas, apparently.
Found to have got Covid but had no symptoms! Now home and Ok.
Prompted a thought. How many have had Covid and recovered, and who. I presume have antibodies, and are now not at significant risk .
Add these figures to the vaccinated, and it must now be getting quite a good figure of those who are comparatively safe.?


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## SaintHacker (Feb 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Prompted a thought. How many have had Covid and recovered, and who. I presume have antibodies, and are now not at significant risk .
Add these figures to the vaccinated, and it must now be getting quite a good figure of those who are comparatively safe.?
		
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This is something I've wondered about. Shame they couldn't mass test people for antibodies then use that data as well to prioritise vaccines by not giving it straight to someone that basically doesn't need it yet


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## larmen (Feb 9, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			At the moment I'm just learning an easy song a week and trying to nail it. So currently it's Bob Marley's Three Little Birds and today managed to play along (and "sing") to the original which I was quite chuffed with 

Click to expand...

This sounds like you are using Justin Guitar videos as a tutor? I learned that one early on as well, sometime before I gave up ;-)
I think there was a discussion here as well about learning guitar. That's why I started in the 1st place.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 9, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I'd find it extremely unlikely to think that you'd find a single person who would think that. It's just plainly a statement, there will come a point in time where people won't accept not seeing friends and families as they wish. Opening of bars, restaurants events etc are things that are more easily enforced to keep closed, but I'd like to see (not really) what a lockdown would look like if it kept on through to May/June. I don't envisage a very high compliant rate.
		
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With the greatest respect sod opening the bars and restaurants etc people just want some face to face company 

Back at start of all this when the first "roadmap" was published the following was looked into bubbles ... Like new Zealand .. none of this you can have one if you have a kid or live alone just every house could form a bubble 

I really believe if each house was allowed say 1 bubble . Every house no matter who then people would cope better just for some human contact


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## larmen (Feb 9, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This is something I've wondered about. Shame they couldn't mass test people for antibodies then use that data as well to prioritise vaccines by not giving it straight to someone that basically doesn't need it yet
		
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Isn't the antibody effect 'short lasting' while the vaccine effect last a lot longer?


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## AmandaJR (Feb 9, 2021)

larmen said:



			This sounds like you are using *Justin Guitar* videos as a tutor? I learned that one early on as well, sometime before I gave up ;-)
I think there was a discussion here as well about learning guitar. That's why I started in the 1st place.
		
Click to expand...

It is indeed and I was also in the previous chat which may have been hundreds of pages ago on this thread.

I found a nice tutorial with a sing along and worked with that for a couple of days before trying the original. I'm finding that singing along is really helping my ability to keep time/count somehow which is something I'm pretty poor at.

https://www.laurenbateman.com/three-little-birds-chord-chart

I've already planned "Leaving on a Jet Plane" for next week 

I also use https://www.andyguitar.co.uk/


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## D-S (Feb 9, 2021)

After Lockdown 1, a proper one unlike the brief November half hearted one, the numbers continued to go down from the mid April peak until September despite the ‘eat out August‘ thing, the throngs on the beaches, lots of protest marches etc. and a continuing easing of restrictions - they only started increasing early October coinciding with school and university return and wetter colder weather. So just a gentle progressive easing doesn’t mean a boom in infections deaths and hospital admissions - then factor in vaccinations and as above more people with anti bodies and I think we can see some sort of normality returning by early summer.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			With the greatest respect sod opening the bars and restaurants etc people just want some face to face company

Back at start of all this when the first "roadmap" was published the following was looked into bubbles ... Like new Zealand .. none of this you can have one if you have a kid or live alone just every house could form a bubble

I really believe if each house was allowed say 1 bubble . Every house no matter who then people would cope better just for some human contact
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what my point really. You can keep bars, restaurants etc shut, but people will not adhere to lockdown when it comes to seeing friends and family, whether that be in parks or meeting up at home for bbq's etc etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The issue would be that we have a vaccine so if that doesn't work then what do we do? We cannot stay in perpetual lockdown cycles so IF (and it's an unlikely if with any luck) the vaccines didn't work *I just cannot see a lot of people complying.* I think this would be different to people 'going off in a huff', this would be our main weapon against the weapon has failed and we cannot socially or economically go into lockdown again especially for a virus that doesn't (fortunately) affect the majority of people in a severe way.
		
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And so what would all those folks then expect to happen...?  I can guess what I think they expect to happen...they expect the vaccines to sufficiently reduce the likelihood of serious Covid-19 illness developing in an individual that hospitalisation for the vast majority catching the virus is not required - and the NHS ticks along - coping. 

And yes that is fine and is hopefully just what is going to happen.  But simply to state that - notwithstanding the success of the vaccines - if for whatever reason 'the' virus starts causing significant issues then tough - the public won't accept any more lockdowns.  Thing is - if you say it enough times a lot of folks will believe it and think it a reasonable view for them to take also. 

But as Admiral Yamamoto said after being told that Japan would rule the Pacific for 18months after the planned attack on Pearl Harbour - _Then what...?  _


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not seeing friends as frequently as we'd have liked and would have done in normal times.

And so to earlier today I hear from my wife that the partner of one of our closest friends - one of my wife's 'besties' who is also mum of one of my daughter's best friends - collapsed and died in town yesterday.  61...

He did have a health issue - perhaps needing surgery at some time - but not one that his consultant thought worth worrying about at the moment - something that he could manage.  We don't know if this was in any way connected, but this is one hell of a shock for us.  We saw them when out for a walk only a couple of weeks back...we were in town and all had a laugh about not recognising each other 'behind the masks'.

Nothing to do with the virus as such - but how the pandemic has completely thrown aspects of our lives into levels of disarray...and what that can mean.  And I look to myself...and reflect that we just don't know what is round the corner of life.
		
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Yes, life is so unpredictable. Times like these when the saying
" live every day as if it's your last", makes a strong case for itself.
Sorry for your loss, H.


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## road2ruin (Feb 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And yes that is fine and is hopefully just what is going to happen.  But simply to state that - notwithstanding the success of the vaccines - if for whatever reason 'the' virus starts causing significant issues then tough - the public won't accept any more lockdowns.  Thing is - if you say it enough times a lot of folks will believe it and think it a reasonable view for them to take also.
		
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But 'IF', again this is purely hypothetical, the vaccines were not successful again the virus then to a degree then would have to be an element of 'tough'. They cannot keep doing lockdowns as it just kicks the can down the road and unless they're going to support everyone equally (financially) then you will not get buy in to the lockdown. Whilst it sounds brutal the figures go to show that this virus isn't deadly to the vast majority so you cannot keep everyone lockdown (or expect them to accept being locked down) so at some point you have to make the decision as to whether you let people just get on with it. 

Again, this is only if the vaccine side of things went pear shaped, I am more than happy to keep going for another couple of months if it means we finally get out of lockdown for good obviously with the understanding that even after that couple of months there are still going to be restrictions however there would be more freedom.


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 9, 2021)

larmen said:



			Isn't the antibody effect 'short lasting' while the vaccine effect last a lot longer?
		
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The vaccine creates the antibodies like the virus and in both scenarios the antibodies disappear with time as they do with any virus. Memory cells are triggered through either the vaccine or virus and this provides the ling term immunity.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 9, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah, that's what my point really. You can keep bars, restaurants etc shut, but people will not adhere to lockdown when it comes to seeing friends and family, whether that be in parks or meeting up at home for bbq's etc etc.
		
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Ah fair enough I just jumped in because it gets my goat 

For example we have 2 bubbles because of the kids 

1 support bubble (in law's)

1 childcare bubble (my parents) for childcare when I'm working mostly or if eldest just needs a run around nanny's big garden keep her entertained as we can't do as much for her now twins are here 

Anyways my sister has zero bubbles .. just her and her husband 

Can only meet the parents (one at a time) for a walk now and again 

My lockdown is much less mentally draining


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## SatchFan (Feb 9, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			It is indeed and I was also in the previous chat which may have been hundreds of pages ago on this thread.

I found a nice tutorial with a sing along and worked with that for a couple of days before trying the original. I'm finding that singing along is really helping my ability to keep time/count somehow which is something I'm pretty poor at.

https://www.laurenbateman.com/three-little-birds-chord-chart

I've already planned "Leaving on a Jet Plane" for next week 

I also use https://www.andyguitar.co.uk/

Click to expand...

Hi, Amanda. Not wishing to overload you but guitarbackingtrack.com is a good site. Thousands of tracks available, many of them originals with the guitars and sometimes the vocals removed. You can listen online or you can download the tracks, maximum of three per day. Also includes Three Little Birds.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 9, 2021)

I genuinely believe we are over the worst, but by no means out of it, I think the lockdown will be eased, enough for some, not enough for others and this will be how it goes with reviews for months and months.

Spring, Summer will be easier and we’ll have to be on our guard for a few years yet, but hopefully people will continue to maintain the higher standard of personnel hygenie and with the advances in medicine we’ll eventually back to the “new normal” whatever that looks like.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 9, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I genuinely believe we are over the worst, but by no means out of it, I think the lockdown will be eased, enough for some, not enough for others and this will be how it goes with reviews for months and months.

Spring, Summer will be easier and we’ll have to be on our guard for a few years yet, but hopefully people will continue to maintain the higher standard of personnel hygenie and with the advances in medicine we’ll eventually back to the “new normal” whatever that looks like.
		
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Everyone tier 1 for the summer months then tier 2 for autumn and 3 for winter 

If people could stick to it might actually work


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## AmandaJR (Feb 9, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			Hi, Amanda. Not wishing to overload you but guitarbackingtrack.com is a good site. Thousands of tracks available, many of them originals with the guitars and sometimes the vocals removed. You can listen online or you can download the tracks, maximum of three per day. Also includes Three Little Birds. 

Click to expand...

Ooh thanks. Just checked out 3 Little Birds and sounds really good and will also help me try and get that reggae beat which I think is just strumming the up...think!

I just played it through without backing and sang it and got it pretty good - the dogs seemed to like it!


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## road2ruin (Feb 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Everyone tier 1 for the summer months then tier 2 for autumn and 3 for winter

If people could stick to it might actually work
		
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So basically the end of the hospitality and travel industries if they’re forced to close for 3/4 months of the year, how is that going to work? By all means have certain restrictions in place but going back into Tier 3 next winter will mean something has gone horribly wrong.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So basically the end of the hospitality and travel industries if they’re forced to close for 3/4 months of the year, how is that going to work? By all means have certain restrictions in place but going back into Tier 3 next winter will mean something has gone horribly wrong.
		
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Only for this year but tbh if anything really thinks travel is a good idea this year is living in a bubble .. whilst we might have great vaccine plans other places don't yet

We need to limit international travel but people can't accept it


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## road2ruin (Feb 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Only for this year but tbh if anything really thinks travel is a good idea this year is living in a bubble .. whilst we might have great vaccine plans other places don't yet

We need to limit international travel but people can't accept it
		
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I agree re travel, that’s going to be effected far longer as we have no control over the vaccination process in other countries. The hospitality side of things though, there will be a large number of businesses hanging on by the skin of their teeth and won’t survive another period of enforced closure.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 9, 2021)

larmen said:



			Isn't the antibody effect 'short lasting' while the vaccine effect last a lot longer?
		
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Mrs BiM is due a shoulder replacement, as part of which she had blood tests last July.  When the hospital phoned re the results, the nurse asked if she was better now.  Mrs BiM says I haven't been ill.  The nurse replied that her blood test was full of Covid antibodies.  The only thing that Mrs BiM can remember having was a bit of gastric trouble in March; not recognised then as a symptom, but I believe it is now.  If that was it, the antibodies were still well in force 4 months later.  And if that is correct then it should dispel some of the concerns about spreading the second jab to 12 weeks.


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## Ethan (Feb 9, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			The vaccine creates the antibodies like the virus and in both scenarios the antibodies disappear with time as they do with any virus. Memory cells are triggered through either the vaccine or virus and this provides the ling term immunity.
		
Click to expand...

The vaccine probably produces a more reliably decent response for many people. The viral load may have an effect on immune response, and the vaccine is a consistently strong load.


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## drdel (Feb 9, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Ooh thanks. Just checked out 3 Little Birds and sounds really good and will also help me try and get that reggae beat which I think is just strumming the up...think!

I just played it through without backing and sang it and got it pretty good - the dogs seemed to like it!
		
Click to expand...

When is your YouTube video due?


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## AmandaJR (Feb 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			When is your YouTube video due?
		
Click to expand...

May be some time!


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## drdel (Feb 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I agree re travel, that’s going to be effected far longer as we have no control over the vaccination process in other countries. The hospitality side of things though, there will be a large number of businesses hanging on by the skin of their teeth and won’t survive another period of enforced closure.
		
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Yup. We may/can control it in the UK but we cannot control the rest of the world?  We will be ìn a reactive position for sometime.

However the UK is helping support by investing in international vaccine development and distribution.


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The vaccine probably produces a more reliably decent response for many people. The viral load may have an effect on immune response, and the vaccine is a consistently strong load.
		
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Out of interest is this a normal virus v vaccine circumstance or specific to Covid19 observed through studies? I'm guessing the former but would be interested to know.


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## Ethan (Feb 9, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Out of interest is this a normal virus v vaccine circumstance or specific to Covid19 observed through studies? I'm guessing the former but would be interested to know.
		
Click to expand...

Viral load is definitely an issue for some viruses. This is thought by some to be one of the reasons healthcare workers often get severe Covid, because they contract it from close contact with the sickest people shedding the most virus. Vaccines tend to give the equivalent of a healthy dose of virus, although the current generation limit exposure to the genetic code for the spike protein, but a fair dose of that too so recipients should mount a robust immune response.


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## SteveJay (Feb 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, life is so unpredictable. Times like these when the saying
" live every day as if it's your last", makes a strong case for itself.
		
Click to expand...

But in a lockdown when you can't even go outside except in specific circumstances, living like it is your last day is nigh on impossible for almost everyone. Thats why mental health issues and depression are rife. Let hope we can soon start being able to enjoy the odd day "like it could be your last".


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 9, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			But in a lockdown when you can't even go outside except in specific circumstances, living like it is your last day is nigh on impossible for almost everyone. Thats why mental health issues and depression are rife. Let hope we can soon start being able to enjoy the odd day "like it could be your last".

Click to expand...

Yes, I appreciate what you are saying. I was aware, but I also was thinking of "normal" times also.😀


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2021)

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little/lot concerned re the spread of the variants... And, potential further/future mutations... On a more positive note... Sister in law got jabbed yesterday and of our more immediate family she was of the most concern due to her ongoing 'dealings' with cancer...


I have been using current lockdown to make a dent in my long term project of digitising our old negatives/transparencies... Been bringing back some happy memories and some tinged with a degree of sadness... Also, after many false starts, I finally managed a binge watch the first season of GoT... Not sure i will be rushing into S2 but hopefully having completed one season it will help with my popular culture knowledge when we can get back to some pub quizzing...


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## Leftitshort (Feb 10, 2021)

Stick with GOT. It gets really good then tails off.......but they’ve got you by then 😉


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## MegaSteve (Feb 10, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Stick with GOT. It gets really good then tails off.......but they’ve got you by then 😉
		
Click to expand...


The question is should I stick with GoT or have another go at getting past Ep2 of The Sopranos ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			The question is should I stick with GoT or have another go at getting past Ep2 of The Sopranos ...
		
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Stick with GoT - the last couple or three series went a bit wonky in parts though there were still plenty of epic bits - but Series 1-5 especially were brilliant.


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## larmen (Feb 10, 2021)

Germany has (or is) extending lockdown to the 14th of March, initially planned to the 1st.

However, schools are opening earlier due to pressure of the states.
And there is some talk about hair dressers opening.

That is the model I could live with very well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

Once more the Ping Fitting Day I was booked onto was cancelled...will I ever get new clubs...just as well that all I could do with new clubs at the moment is polish and admire them.


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## larmen (Feb 10, 2021)

BioN-Tech started to produce their vaccine in Germany as well. They produce for licensing purposes and for storage for that when this laboratory is licensed they can dump 8m doses onto the market.
Even if that is for Germany that should free up the Pfizer produced vaccine for the others.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 10, 2021)

We had our first shots yesterday. Very efficient and totally painless,  in fact I genuinely did not realise that the injection was complete. 

However, I did get side effects. Woke at around 2.00 am shivering and shaking, teeth literally chattering. Joint pain and generally feeling crap.

But now those effects are rapidly wearing off and I am getting back to normal (or what passes for normal in my case).


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## larmen (Feb 10, 2021)

A few hours of side effects are worth the protection you get!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2021)

larmen said:



			A few hours of side effects are worth the protection you get!
		
Click to expand...

I only had a punch in the arm type pain for a day.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2021)

Infections starting to tumble.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 10, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little/lot concerned re the spread of the variants... And, potential further/future mutations... On a more positive note... Sister in law got jabbed yesterday and of our more immediate family she was of the most concern due to her ongoing 'dealings' with cancer...


I have been using current lockdown to make a dent in my long term project of digitising our old negatives/transparencies... Been bringing back some happy memories and some tinged with a degree of sadness... Also, after many false starts, I finally managed a binge watch the first season of GoT... Not sure i will be rushing into S2 but hopefully having completed one season it will help with my popular culture knowledge when we can get back to some pub quizzing...
		
Click to expand...

😂 we did GOT during the second lock down b4 Xmas. We did stick with it. What bogged me off was I knew some of the endings due to watching gogglebox 🤬


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## Tashyboy (Feb 10, 2021)

For 4 or 5 days, the RBL branch managed to do a collection in the local supermarket, then lockdown came in. When me and Missis T we’re doing our stint. Missis T was talking to one of the staff who we have known 20 odd years. He husband is an alcoholic and was getting worse due to the Covid restriction. Her life was, well let’s say not pleasant. Ave just seen her an hour ago and I asked
 “ how’s things”. She mentioned her husband had died 5 weeks after we had talked. Oddly enough, she looked well, she looked like she had a massive weight off her shoulders. She mentioned he had collapsed, went into hospital, came home Covid Free and was called the day after to say guy in next bed is positive. Suffice to say he caught it and eventually passed away. We couldn’t really talk as she was working. I mentioned it to Missis T and she said her life was hell for her and the kids. 
Covid is crap for everyone, but sometimes there’s just horrible reminders that some folk are more up to the neck in the brown stuff than others ☹️
Staysafe everyone.


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 10, 2021)

Didn't know whether to create a new thread or drop it in here, report saying 5 people fined for playing golf and breaking covid rules in Liverpool. ANother example of the idiots that just look out for themselves

https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-new...zaMvF80qDJvOgWnzvdWddOqIB9PoTbYlhdw6Ud772iyLY


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 10, 2021)

No, absolutely not. If you've been given the chance and you turn it down, it's on you. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56007070

"A scientist has warned Covid-19 could be "with us for decades from now on".

Prof Paul Hunter, professor of medicine at the University of East Anglia, told BBC Radio 4's World At One: "Complete eradication is an unachievable goal in my view and in the view of many epidemiologists, and in the view of the World Health Organization.

"This virus is going to be with us for decades from now on. The issue is protecting the people who are most vulnerable initially."

He said it was a problem that *not everybody who was vulnerable was having the vaccine and questioned what can be done to protect those who have declined a jab* or not had it despite being at risk.

"*Do we as a society need to still keep some sort of restrictions in place to help protect them*?" he asked.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			No, absolutely not. If you've been given the chance and you turn it down, it's on you.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56007070

"A scientist has warned Covid-19 could be "with us for decades from now on".

Prof Paul Hunter, professor of medicine at the University of East Anglia, told BBC Radio 4's World At One: "Complete eradication is an unachievable goal in my view and in the view of many epidemiologists, and in the view of the World Health Organization.

"This virus is going to be with us for decades from now on. The issue is protecting the people who are most vulnerable initially."

He said it was a problem that *not everybody who was vulnerable was having the vaccine and questioned what can be done to protect those who have declined a jab* or not had it despite being at risk.

"*Do we as a society need to still keep some sort of restrictions in place to help protect them*?" he asked.
		
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Absolutely not, the many have suffered for the benefit of the few long enough already. If some of those are stupid enough not to protect themselves i would say leave them to it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359533774749466629

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359504380853157889


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Absolutely not, the many have suffered for the benefit of the few long enough already. If some of those are stupid enough not to protect themselves i would say leave them to it.
		
Click to expand...

Playing the Devil's Advocate - I have never had the Flu jag - if I fall seriously ill with influenza am I left to my own devices?

Smokers know the risk of smoking.  Are they left to their own devices?

It's a separate question from the risk to others presented by those not taking up the offer of being vaccinated.  Though clearly the risk presented to those vaccinated is low.


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## bobmac (Feb 10, 2021)

I think by next year all the wrinklies will trot off to their GP once a year and get their flu jab and every 3-5 years, get their Covid jab.
After all, we've been living with the flu since the 1940s


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Playing the Devil's Advocate - I have never had the Flu jag - if I fall seriously ill with influenza am I left to my own devices?
		
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I don't think anyone is saying do not give them the health care needed. Only saying that the rest of society isn't to make any further changes to their way of living because you have chosen not to taken the vaccine.


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## road2ruin (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Playing the Devil's Advocate - I have never had the Flu jag - if I fall seriously ill with influenza am I left to my own devices?
		
Click to expand...

Not at all however the rest of society should not have any restrictions just because you have decided not to have the Covid jab. You would be given NHS help and would hopefully be okay however should the worst happen that would be down to your initial decision.


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## road2ruin (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Smokers know the risk of smoking.  Are they left to their own devices?
		
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As above, no one is suggesting that those who refuse the Covid jab aren't given health support however you don't see restrictions placed on non-smokers due to smokers etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I don't think anyone is saying do not give them the health care needed. Only saying that the rest of society isn't to make any further changes to their way of living because you have chosen not to taken the vaccine.
		
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OK - but I am not so sure that's 100% the case...

I noted a spokesman this morning being very clear that there are no plans for a vaccine passport...at least not for an internal UK purposes.  Now I am inclined towards a 'vaccine passport' of some form being required for some circumstances - especially over the early months if not early years of us living with the virus, and clearly any such passport would exclude those not taking the vaccination.  So the spokesman has already decided that the needs and freedom of choice of those not vaccinated will be taken into account.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			As above, no one is suggesting that those who refuse the Covid jab aren't given health support however you don't see restrictions placed on non-smokers due to smokers etc.
		
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I misunderstood the intent of the statement _'If some of those are stupid enough not to protect themselves i would say leave them to it'_


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - but I am not so sure that's 100% the case...

I noted a spokesman this morning being very clear that there are no plans for a vaccine passport...at least not for an internal UK purposes.  Now I am inclined towards a 'vaccine passport' of some form being required for some circumstances - and clearly any such passport would exclude those not taking the vaccination.  So the spokesman has already decided that the needs and freedom of choice of those not vaccinated will be taken into account.
		
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Those of us who have or will take the vaccine will not have to do anything extra bar getting that alleged "passport". You've turned the question upside down. Yes, for those that choose to not take the vaccine are free to do so, but that may have some consequences for them, not for us who will take it.

I read that wrong, but I still do not get your point.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - but I am not so sure that's 100% the case...

I noted a spokesman this morning being very clear that there are no plans for a vaccine passport...at least not for an internal UK purposes.  Now I am inclined towards a 'vaccine passport' of some form being required for some circumstances - especially over the early months if not early years of us living with the virus, and clearly any such passport would exclude those not taking the vaccination.  So the spokesman has already decided that the needs and freedom of choice of those not vaccinated will be taken into account.
		
Click to expand...

A question please... Where/when did you hear this spokesman?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			A question please... Where/when did you hear this spokesman?
		
Click to expand...

On the _Today_ programme this morning.  I cannot say who the individual was a spokesman for.  It was the same spokesman who told us that we should not be booking any holidays overseas (or indeed at home) at the moment and, indeed, that most people weren't currently having any such thoughts.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - but I am not so sure that's 100% the case...

I noted a spokesman this morning being very clear that there are no plans for a vaccine passport...at least not for an internal UK purposes.  Now I am inclined towards a 'vaccine passport' of some form being required for some circumstances - especially over the early months if not early years of us living with the virus, and clearly any such passport would exclude those not taking the vaccination.  So the spokesman has already decided that the needs and freedom of choice of those not vaccinated will be taken into account.
		
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A woman at work is unsure about taking the vaccine 🙄 but loves her holidays. She mentioned that no one can force her to have one, correct, but I pointed out that if half of Europe insists she has one before she can visit will she feel the same? No vaccine no foreign holiday.

To an extent it doesn't matter if we don't want a vaccine passport if every other country does.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



Those of us who have or will take the vaccine will not have to do anything extra bar getting that alleged "passport". You've turned the question upside down. Yes, for those that choose to not take the vaccine are free to do so, but that may have some consequences for them, not for us who will take it.

I read that wrong, but I still do not get your point.
		
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No need for a vaccine passport internal to UK accommodates the freedom of choice of those choosing to not take the vaccine as one would limit their freedoms.  And that might delay opening of some public venues or events.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No need for a vaccine passport internal to UK accommodates the freedom of choice of those choosing to not take the vaccine as one would limit their freedoms.
		
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And in what way would that mean any restrictions to us who have taken the vaccine? This was the initial question:

"*Do we as a society need to still keep some sort of restrictions in place to help protect them?"*

What you're raising is certainly interesting, but isn't really to do with the above.

To put restrictions on those who've chosen to not take the vaccine, absolutely if you ask me, but it's a separate question.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Playing the Devil's Advocate - I have never had the Flu jag - if I fall seriously ill with influenza am I left to my own devices?

Smokers know the risk of smoking.  Are they left to their own devices?

It's a separate question from the risk to others presented by those not taking up the offer of being vaccinated.  Though clearly the risk presented to those vaccinated is low.
		
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Probably could have been worded better. What I meant was, if you catch flu ( and I sincereley hope you dont) I doesn't affect me as we don't lockdown becasue of it. Covid has affected me massiveley. I'm not bitter about it because if its saved a few peoples lives then its worth it. By leaving them on their own I don't mean they shoudn't have any healthcare or anything like that, just that there should be no further restrictions that can damage the majority when they are refusing something that can finally bring this godforsaken episode to an end.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the _Today_ programme this morning.  I cannot say who the individual was a spokesman for.
		
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In which case, same bloke I heard. Who wasnt really a spokesman for anyone other than the company he works for. And who is developing an IT system/solution that could be used to prove you've had the jab. He was adamant it wasn't "a passport" but was more of a "certificate". (But to me that's only semantics).   Main point was that although his company is developing a system, it was up to others (government presumably?) as to whether such a system needed to be implemented or not.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A woman at work is unsure about taking the vaccine 🙄 but loves her holidays. She mentioned that no one can force her to have one, correct, but I pointed out that if half of Europe insists she has one before she can visit will she feel the same? No vaccine no foreign holiday.

To an extent it doesn't matter if we don't want a vaccine passport if every other country does.
		
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And equally it could be used as a way around a two grand ten day hotel stay whenshe returns!


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2021)

Not sure how i feel about this

All the support staff at my wife's school have been put down to have the vaccine as they are one to one with the kids every day and it's a disabled school so it gets very close at times 

Anyways 3 members of staff haven't been put down including my wife because their on maternity leave 

Not sure if that feels right? Surely it's 3 people just name them they get vaccine so they will be safe upon their return .. some might come back soon!


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## Imurg (Feb 10, 2021)

I thought Grant Shaps said something about not having a Vaccine Passport this morning.
You get a chit to say you've had it, much like any other jab ( yellow fever  etc) not a passport as such.
Some countries are bound to want one from those coming in.
Australia would be one that wouldn't surprise me by wanting one.
Quaintarse have already said as much.


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2021)

Greece has agreed a vaccine passport travel deal with Israel. The EU mooted a vaccine passport last year, and many EU member states are pushing for it, initially suggested to go live from Jan 2022. The EU also asked member states to collate names of those who refuse the jab.

As has been said, it may come to 'no jab, no travel.'


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## Slime (Feb 10, 2021)

According to the BBC we shouldn't book holidays abroad or at home because ''Summer has been put on hold''.
Who makes this hysterical crap up?


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## Tashyboy (Feb 10, 2021)

Re having a vaccine passport, why not. Esp if you want to travel. I have heard that the passports could be easily faked. If we don’t know what they look like how can we fake them. Does it actually have to be a piece of paper. If it’s travel, put it on a data base. Those that don’t want the vaccine, I am ok with that, that’s there choice, reap what you sow. But if you falsify a vaccine passport to say you have had it when you have not, throw the book and the library at them.


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## Beedee (Feb 10, 2021)

From what I've seen all the talk about vaccine passports has been about Brits going abroad.  I can't recall seeing any discussion about visitors coming to the UK.

So should the UK insist on proof of vaccine before we allow inbound tourism?


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Playing the Devil's Advocate - I have never had the Flu jag - if I fall seriously ill with influenza am I left to my own devices?

Smokers know the risk of smoking.  Are they left to their own devices?

It's a separate question from the risk to others presented by those not taking up the offer of being vaccinated.  Though clearly the risk presented to those vaccinated is low.
		
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There is a point there ......somewhere. But it is apples and oranges.
Flu has been here long time and we have herd immunity. Covid is a whole different ball game. 
Everyone knows the worst case scenario. An NHS almost overwhelmed , with the likely result being to the detriment of all with any serious condition.
If the anti vaxxers want to ignore their societal responsibilities then let them take the consequences if they get ill.
Time to get hard. Too long have abusers of their bodies burdened the hell out of the public service ( NHS) despite being almost begged to look after themselves and each other.
And don't anyone tell me it's a matter of them being educated. If they are blind and deaf, maybe, but otherwise they are aware of the many pleas etc to look after themselves and others.


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## Ethan (Feb 10, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			No, absolutely not. If you've been given the chance and you turn it down, it's on you.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56007070

"A scientist has warned Covid-19 could be "with us for decades from now on".

Prof Paul Hunter, professor of medicine at the University of East Anglia, told BBC Radio 4's World At One: "Complete eradication is an unachievable goal in my view and in the view of many epidemiologists, and in the view of the World Health Organization.

"This virus is going to be with us for decades from now on. The issue is protecting the people who are most vulnerable initially."

He said it was a problem that *not everybody who was vulnerable was having the vaccine and questioned what can be done to protect those who have declined a jab* or not had it despite being at risk.

"*Do we as a society need to still keep some sort of restrictions in place to help protect them*?" he asked.
		
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Paul Hunter is big in mathematical modelling, rather than ground level public health, but nobody serious expects that we can eradicate Covid at this stage. There was a point when we possibly could have done so, but that ship has sailed. 

The issue of protecting the most vulnerable is only part of the approach, though. They are not the people responsible for most transmission, so protecting the people who are in important roles which carry a high risk of transmission need protecting, because that protects everybody else. 

At the start of this, I suggested that I would have started with the oldest people in frontline jobs, and work up and down age ranges from there. Those people are at high risk both of personal bad outcomes but also of spread, so treating them might reduce overall cases faster than treating older people and will allow them to remain economically active. They probably also have kids at school or college, so are exposed to risk and transmission cycles there. So NHS frontline staff, police, ambulance crews, care workers, teachers etc in their 50s and 60s would be first in my plan. It is unfortunate that multiple reports suggest that many of the first vaccines went to young backroom NHS staff instead. 

Over time, we will build up some cumulative immunity, and like flu, in due course most people will not get symptomatic illness most years. 

People who decline vaccination should, in my view, be told that is fine, we will call you back after we have finished the rest of the population in late 2021. I would find it objectionable to be kicked down the queue because Mr Hesitant came along, taking an appointment, has a chat about it, decides not, then changes his mind a week later. One time offer, missed your chance, mate. Time spent persuading people is time the could be used for multiple actual vaccinations of the willing. Take it or leave it.


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## Ethan (Feb 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Not sure how i feel about this

All the support staff at my wife's school have been put down to have the vaccine as they are one to one with the kids every day and it's a disabled school so it gets very close at times

Anyways 3 members of staff haven't been put down including my wife because their on maternity leave

Not sure if that feels right? Surely it's 3 people just name them they get vaccine so they will be safe upon their return .. some might come back soon!
		
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Pregnancy is a precaution, in other words the prescribing advice states that a personal assessment should be made about how important it is to vaccinate versus possible risks for each individual. There is no evidence that there is any specific risk, but the truth is we don't know. Breast feeding is likely to be safer, but again, not 100% proven.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Pregnancy is a precaution, in other words the prescribing advice states that a personal assessment should be made about how important it is to vaccinate versus possible risks for each individual. There is no evidence that there is any specific risk, but the truth is we don't know. Breast feeding is likely to be safer, but again, not 100% proven.
		
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None of them are pregnant, they are all maternity leave after pregnancy

Our daughters are 6 months old this month

Maybe they could request it?


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## Tashyboy (Feb 10, 2021)

Beedee said:



			From what I've seen all the talk about vaccine passports has been about Brits going abroad.  I can't recall seeing any discussion about visitors coming to the UK.

So should the UK insist on proof of vaccine before we allow inbound tourism?
		
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probably will in 2023


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## Ethan (Feb 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			None of them are pregnant, they are all maternity leave after pregnancy

Our daughters are 6 months old this month

Maybe they could request it?
		
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If she is at home, they will probably want to wait until after breast feeding unless she has some other risk factors that make vaccination important sooner rather than later.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			In which case, same bloke I heard. Who wasnt really a spokesman for anyone other than the company he works for. And who is developing an IT system/solution that could be used to prove you've had the jab. He was adamant it wasn't "a passport" but was more of a "certificate". (But to me that's only semantics).   Main point was that although his company is developing a system, it was up to others (government presumably?) as to whether such a system needed to be implemented or not.
		
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It’s wasn’t he. I cannot say who he is spokesman for.  Indeed I suspect were I to give a clue that too would find me in hot water 🤫


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 10, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Re having a vaccine passport, why not. Esp if you want to travel. I have heard that the passports could be easily faked. If we don’t know what they look like how can we fake them. Does it actually have to be a piece of paper. If it’s travel, put it on a data base. Those that don’t want the vaccine, I am ok with that, that’s there choice, reap what you sow. But if you falsify a vaccine passport to say you have had it when you have not, throw the book and the library at them.
		
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As soon as somebody has one, we know what it looks like & it becomes forgeable.  A database is hackable.  As long as there is more money in the criminal side of it than the State is prepared to pay it will never be secure.  Sorry, but that is a sad fact of life.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2021)

Slime said:



			According to the BBC we shouldn't book holidays abroad or at home because ''Summer has been put on hold''.
Who makes this hysterical crap up?
		
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See spokesman for 🤫 on the _Today_ programme this morning...🙄


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## drdel (Feb 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Pregnancy is a precaution, in other words the prescribing advice states that a personal assessment should be made about how important it is to vaccinate versus possible risks for each individual. There is no evidence that there is any specific risk, but the truth is we don't know. Breast feeding is likely to be safer, but again, not 100% proven.
		
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C'mon Ethan it now must be called "chest feeding'- not that I know of any males who could stand in!


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## backwoodsman (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s wasn’t he. I cannot say who he is spokesman for.  Indeed I suspect were I to give a clue that too would find me in hot water 🤫
		
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Ok. That bit must have been on before my radio came on.

On a different general note, I dont understand why there seems to be such antipathy against a "vaccine passport" or whatever it might be called.  After all, plenty  of countries around the world already require proof of vaccination for various diseases  efore they let you in. Dont see that this is all that different. (But ok, an intra-national thing might be more diversive).


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## Ethan (Feb 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the _Today_ programme this morning.  I cannot say who the individual was a spokesman for.  It was the same spokesman who told us that we should not be booking any holidays overseas (or indeed at home) at the moment and, indeed, that most people weren't currently having any such thoughts.
		
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Grant Shapps?


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## Rlburnside (Feb 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Grant Shapps?
		
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Talk about mixed messages Grant Shapps saying don’t book summer holiday home or abroad and Matt Hancock saying he’s going to Cornwall 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## williamalex1 (Feb 10, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Well I did get some "nice" callouses but they've all gone! As it turns out though it's not too bad and I can play as long as I want to without too much discomfort. Not that I play for long!!

I was going through an online lessons course and practicing chord changes a lot so maybe got a bit stuck/bored. At the moment I'm just learning an easy song a week and trying to nail it. So currently it's Bob Marley's Three Little Birds and today managed to play along (and "sing") to the original which I was quite chuffed with 

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Don't worry, bout a thing


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Greece has agreed a vaccine passport travel deal with Israel. The EU mooted a vaccine passport last year, and many EU member states are pushing for it, initially suggested to go live from Jan 2022. The EU also asked member states to collate names of those who refuse the jab.

As has been said, it may come to 'no jab, no travel.'
		
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In a part of Europe that allows free movement with no border controls how will they stop it.


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## larmen (Feb 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			In a part of Europe that allows free movement with no border controls how will they stop it.
		
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Shengen has been suspended for a while now.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

I wonder how the under 50’s will react when all us old farts can get a vaccine passport and go on holiday and they are barred. On the other hand, if we have all had jabs in the country will we be allowed to a country who are still way behind in their vaccination program.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

larmen said:



			Shengen has been suspended for a while now.
		
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Does that mean that border controls have been placed on all road border crossing.


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2021)

As being vaccinated prevents the spread of the disease, choosing not to be vaccinated therefore aids or increases the spread of the disease. Though those who choose not to be vaccinated should be allowed healthcare they should in my opinion be prevented from spreading the disease. 
In some way this is the same as smoking, we give smokers the healthcare but we do restrict their activity as there is deemed to be a danger from second hand smoke. The refuseniks will by definition be spreaders so perhaps they should have to wear medical grade masks and not be allowed to be indoors in public places in close proximity to others.


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## larmen (Feb 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Does that mean that border controls have been placed on all road border crossing.
		
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No idea, I just read headlines back last year saying about borders to Austria are closed and similar. I haven't crossed a schengen boarder for over 20 years now.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

D-S said:



			As being vaccinated prevents the spread of the disease, choosing not to be vaccinated therefore aids or increases the spread of the disease. Though those who choose not to be vaccinated should be allowed healthcare they should in my opinion be prevented from spreading the disease.
In some way this is the same as smoking, we give smokers the healthcare but we do restrict their activity as there is deemed to be a danger from second hand smoke. The refuseniks will by definition be spreaders so perhaps they should have to wear medical grade masks and not be allowed to be indoors in public places in close proximity to others.
		
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Or we could put armbands on them with some kind of unclean badge on it. Perhaps a bit more time, understanding and explanation might be a better approach.


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## Ethan (Feb 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Greece has agreed a vaccine passport travel deal with Israel. The EU mooted a vaccine passport last year, and many EU member states are pushing for it, initially suggested to go live from Jan 2022. The EU also asked member states to collate names of those who refuse the jab.

As has been said, it may come to 'no jab, no travel.'
		
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They will need to figure out what to do with kids. None of the vaccines are approved for kids in the UK or Europe, so cannot really be any expectation for them to have passports. Very few adults can't have the vaccine, really only those who are allergic to the specific ingredients of the vaccines or are pregnant/breastfeeding.


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Or we could put armbands on them with some kind of unclean badge on it. Perhaps a bit more time, understanding and explanation might be a better approach.
		
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I’m not suggesting that we shouldn’t try to explain and educate, the authorities are already trying hard do so, but to knowingly aid the spread of a deadly disease and being able to act with impunity seems in contrast to what the rest of the population have been doing in the past 11 months. As we are currently all spreaders our liberties have been, correctly, curtailed for the greater good I see no reason why those who continue to deliberately spread a deadly disease should be allowed to do so providing they have been given the education.


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## larmen (Feb 10, 2021)

I think morally you can't have the saga people going on holidays while young people want to be vaccinated but still waiting for their turn.
Plus the people that can't yet like kids, pregnant women and possibly people with some health condition.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

larmen said:



			I think morally you can't have the saga people going on holidays while young people want to be vaccinated but still waiting for their turn.
Plus the people that can't yet like kids, pregnant women and possibly people with some health condition.
		
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It’s a conundrum, do you stop all travel until everyone catches up or do you, for the sake of the tourist industry, open it up to those who had the jab. Not a decision I’d like to make.

As an aside, in N Devon are one of the lowest areas for COVID in the UK. The tourist industry here are begging for the return of tourists where as there are some locals dead against it. Should the travel ban include the whole of UK as well.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

D-S said:



			I’m not suggesting that we shouldn’t try to explain and educate, the authorities are already trying hard do so, but to knowingly aid the spread of a deadly disease and being able to act with impunity seems in contrast to what the rest of the population have been doing in the past 11 months. As we are currently all spreaders our liberties have been, correctly, curtailed for the greater good I see no reason why those who continue to deliberately spread a deadly disease should be allowed to do so providing they have been given the education.
		
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The problems highlighted by the media seems to mostly include elderly members of ethnic minority groups and some immigrants, it will be interesting to see if the younger age group in these areas have similar misgivings.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It’s a conundrum, do you stop all travel until everyone catches up or do you, for the sake of the tourist industry, open it up to those who had the jab. Not a decision I’d like to make.

As an aside, in N Devon are one of the lowest areas for COVID in the UK. The tourist industry here are begging for the return of tourists where as there are some locals dead against it. Should the travel ban include the whole of UK as well.
		
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It’s the same as lockdown for millions is purely to protect the vunerable- there is no way they would allow the people with vaccine to be able to have a holiday whilst others havent purely because they haven’t been offered the vaccine - that happens and the reaction wouldn’t be pretty


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## pauljames87 (Feb 10, 2021)

D-S said:



			As being vaccinated prevents the spread of the disease, choosing not to be vaccinated therefore aids or increases the spread of the disease. Though those who choose not to be vaccinated should be allowed healthcare they should in my opinion be prevented from spreading the disease. 
In some way this is the same as smoking, we give smokers the healthcare but we do restrict their activity as there is deemed to be a danger from second hand smoke. The refuseniks will by definition be spreaders so perhaps they should have to wear medical grade masks and not be allowed to be indoors in public places in close proximity to others.
		
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You can still spread it when vaccinated tho? You just don't get as ill as you could get without it

Basically an NHS saving vaccine


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2021)

At the current rate I believe all over 18s will have been offered the vaccine by end June, early July - we could then offer passports in time for summer holidays.
It isn’t even the middle of Feb yet but all the over 65s in our roll up WhatsApp group will have had the jab by the end of this week.


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You can still spread it when vaccinated tho? You just don't get as ill as you could get without it

Basically an NHS saving vaccine
		
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It’s my understanding that from initial results in Israel that the vaccinated also reduce the spread, however I don’t have the article I rad to hand.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

D-S said:



			At the current rate I believe all over 18s will have been offered the vaccine by end June, early July - we could then offer passports in time for summer holidays.
It isn’t even the middle of Feb yet but all the over 65s in our roll up WhatsApp group will have had the jab by the end of this week.
		
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We might get through our 70+ by the mid Feb so we could be nearly a month behind your area.


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## Ethan (Feb 10, 2021)

D-S said:



			At the current rate I believe all over 18s will have been offered the vaccine by end June, early July - we could then offer passports in time for summer holidays.
It isn’t even the middle of Feb yet but all the over 65s in our roll up WhatsApp group will have had the jab by the end of this week.
		
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One jab, maybe, not 2. There are a lot more people in some of the middle age groups, and JCVI have not made it clear if they even intend to recommend vaccs for all adults yet.


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## Robster59 (Feb 10, 2021)

I find myself shouting at the TV more and more at people who make decisions based on what they read on social media.


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## Old Skier (Feb 10, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I find myself shouting at the TV more and more at people who make decisions based on what they read on social media. 

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Why, it happens on here all the time


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2021)

At current rate 15.7m will receive first dose by 15/2 that’s 30% of the population over 18. At current rate of 434k per day it’ll take 85 days for first dose into the remaining 70% Supply increases from April, additional Pfizer and Moderna, should up this rate as second doses start to be administered, this acceleration will be key to timing of total vaccinatio.


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## larmen (Feb 10, 2021)

The rate might come down a bit once a lot of people go for seconds?


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## Robster59 (Feb 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Why, it happens on here all the time 

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I genuinely think I'm turning into Victor Meldrew. I'm growing less patient and tolerant with the stupid, ignorant, I'll informed and inconsiderate people who seem to becoming more prevalent these days.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 10, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I genuinely think I'm turning into Victor Meldrew. I'm growing less patient and tolerant with the stupid, ignorant, I'll informed and inconsiderate people who seem to becoming more prevalent these days.
		
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I don't believe it


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 10, 2021)

D-S said:



			At current rate 15.7m will receive first dose by 15/2 that’s 30% of the population over 18. At current rate of 434k per day it’ll take 85 days for first dose into the remaining 70% *Supply increases from April,* additional Pfizer and Moderna, should up this rate as second doses start to be administered, this acceleration will be key to timing of total vaccinatio.
		
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Do we have sufficient staff to match the increase?  I hope so, but I'm not sure that an increase on nearly half a million jabs a day is achievable.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I'm not sure we can up it.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 11, 2021)

I think "guests" on the BBC are turning - loving Matt Hancock saying headline writers are the only ones finding holiday advice difficult to understand and that most are smarter than that


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2021)

Slime said:



			According to the BBC we shouldn't book holidays abroad or at home because ''Summer has been put on hold''.
Who makes this hysterical crap up?
		
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I try and take a more positive view... Any other year our screens/media would be full of 'hysterical' (non)travellers whingeing about 'our' airports and train lines inability to cope with a few mm's of snow ....


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I think "guests" on the BBC are turning - loving Matt Hancock saying headline writers are the only ones finding holiday advice difficult to understand and that most are smarter than that 

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Charlie doesnt understand the difference between "booking a holiday months ago" and "going on holiday", I did the same " months ago" for July as there is a particular place I want to go and the holiday firm offered a good protected deal. Doesnt mean I'll go.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 11, 2021)

My gf has just been told in an email from the board of directors at her work (a fairly big and well known clothing brand) that the scheduled opening of the stores in the UK is planned for late May. If that is simply the company itself who's planning for that or if that is based on an inside tip from government I do not know.

One of the guys at our club who's high up in one of the biggest accounting firms in the world have always had the exact info on lockdown measures before it's been public, so assuming that this sort of info is going out to companies, whether that is leaked or official "classified" info, who knows?


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Do we have sufficient staff to match the increase?  I hope so, but I'm not sure that an increase on nearly half a million jabs a day is achievable.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I'm not sure we can up it.
		
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Staff won't be a rate-limiting step for a while. Loads of volunteers have come forward, some retired and non-clinical doctors, retired nurses, paramedics and non-healthcare people trained up too vaccinate (which is not very difficult).


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## pauljames87 (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Charlie doesnt understand the difference between "booking a holiday months ago" and "going on holiday", I did the same " months ago" for July as there is a particular place I want to go and the holiday firm offered a good protected deal. Doesnt mean I'll go.
		
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We have had centre parcs booked since last year when it was pushed back because of the pandemic..

Just like you doesn't mean we will go.. if no good we will move to next year


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## MegaSteve (Feb 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I think "guests" on the BBC are turning - loving Matt Hancock saying headline writers are the only ones finding holiday advice difficult to understand and that most are smarter than that 

Click to expand...


Not sure how the Beeb can be held responsible or be in any way connected with headlines, in the printed media, as a result of Grant Shapp's message from yesterday...


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## road2ruin (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It’s a conundrum, do you stop all travel until everyone catches up or do you, for the sake of the tourist industry, open it up to those who had the jab. Not a decision I’d like to make.
		
Click to expand...

I can imagine that the younger people would, rightly, be up in arms if the older generations were suddenly able to go on holiday whilst they were told that they'd ben confined to the UK for any holiday. As an age group that has been disproportionately affected by the restrictions placed upon them for a virus that carries very little risk but to protect those that are at risk, to then be told that they would face even more restrictions, they'd be furious. 

For me, it should be a level playing field, leisure travel allowed once all have been vaccinated. If you choose not to have the vaccine you cannot travel.


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## road2ruin (Feb 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			We have had centre parcs booked since last year when it was pushed back because of the pandemic..

Just like you doesn't mean we will go.. if no good we will move to next year
		
Click to expand...

We are booking Cornwall today, we've been meaning to for a while however finances haven't allowed. It's not until mid August so fairly confident we'll be going, if not then we'll reschedule but I need something to look forward to!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Grant Shapps?
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't possibly say; couldn't possibly comment.  Others have and will.


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## GB72 (Feb 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I can imagine that the younger people would, rightly, be up in arms if the older generations were suddenly able to go on holiday whilst they were told that they'd ben confined to the UK for any holiday. As an age group that has been disproportionately affected by the restrictions placed upon them for a virus that carries very little risk but to protect those that are at risk, to then be told that they would face even more restrictions, they'd be furious.

For me, it should be a level playing field, leisure travel allowed once all have been vaccinated. If you choose not to have the vaccine you cannot travel.
		
Click to expand...

This I agree with if for no other reason than social harmony. People are currently willing to wait patiently for their jab. Just imagine how the toilet roll, pasta hoarders and panic buyers would react if someone announced that having the vaccine meant increased levels of freedom or 2 weeks on the Costa Del Sol whilst everyone else stayed in full lockdown. I can actually see riots outside vaccine centers.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Or we could put armbands on them with some kind of unclean badge on it. Perhaps a bit more time, understanding and explanation might be a better approach.
		
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C,mon, how much time understanding? and explanation is needed🙄
That is procrastination.
Their refusals, because of the resulting increased instances of spread of the disease, are
akin to refusing to follow the lockdown rules. The result is the same. Unnecessary spread of a deadly disease.
So why don't you condemn it , as I believe you would condemn refusal to obey lockdown rules.?
How long did it take you to understand what is involved.
The anti vaxxers know the score. They are making conscious decisions.


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## road2ruin (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This I agree with if for no other reason than social harmony. People are currently willing to wait patiently for their jab. Just imagine how the toilet roll, pasta hoarders and panic buyers would react if someone announced that having the vaccine meant increased levels of freedom or 2 weeks on the Costa Del Sol whilst everyone else stayed in full lockdown. I can actually see riots outside vaccine centers.
		
Click to expand...

I think it would also lead down a slightly dangerous route of 'Vaccine for Cash'. A black market for jabs to get your vaccine passport to enable you to travel.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Staff won't be a rate-limiting step for a while. Loads of volunteers have come forward, some retired and non-clinical doctors, retired nurses, paramedics and non-healthcare people trained up too vaccinate (which is not very difficult).
		
Click to expand...

The vaccination part may not be difficult - but the 'governance' and 'due diligence' training that has to be taken and 'passed' before an individual can give a vaccination is quite burdensome...and might put some off.  Hopefully not to the detriment of delivering first jag to plan as second jag recipients come in - but we shouldn't assume that the process to be followed for onboarding someone to given vaccinations is quick and easy; it's a bit of a pain.


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## bobmac (Feb 11, 2021)

You can't say some can go abroad and some cant, either we all go or nobody goes.
However, what you can say is those returning to the UK who haven't had the vaccine and have been offered it will have to quarantine in a secure hotel for 2 weeks at their own expense. That might get the antivaxers attention.
Another idea might be if someone refuses the vaccine then later changes their mind, they will have to pay for it...say £250 each dose.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Charlie doesnt understand the difference between "booking a holiday months ago" and "going on holiday", I did the same " months ago" for July as there is a particular place I want to go and the holiday firm offered a good protected deal. Doesnt mean I'll go.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Hancock doesn’t understand why Grant Shapps only stated yesterday it was “too soon to book a domestic holiday”

But hey, easier to deflect on to headline writers than question a colleague.


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## oxymoron (Feb 11, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I genuinely think I'm turning into Victor Meldrew. I'm growing less patient and tolerant with the stupid, ignorant, I'll informed and inconsiderate people who seem to becoming more prevalent these days.
		
Click to expand...

This is me as well , found myself getting really wound up in the supermarket yesterday for the smallest of thing not usual for me at all used to be a calm,quite laid back
but find myself getting annoyed at the drop of a hat lately with all the nuptys roaming around without a thought for others


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You can't say some can go abroad and some cant, either we all go or nobody goes.
		
Click to expand...

What if Spain says that people can travel there only if they've had the vaccine? Would you expect our government to ban everyone from going on holiday to Spain until everyone has had the vaccination?


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## bobmac (Feb 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			What if Spain says that people can travel there only if they've had the vaccine? Would you expect our government to ban everyone from going on holiday to Spain until everyone has had the vaccination?
		
Click to expand...

No. 
If Spain has strict entry rules, that's up to them.
No vaccination, no entry.


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## GB72 (Feb 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			What if Spain says that people can travel there only if they've had the vaccine? Would you expect our government to ban everyone from going on holiday to Spain until everyone has had the vaccination?
		
Click to expand...

Honestly, yes. One of the purposes of lockdown, which has kept us at home on and off for a year, has been to protect the more at risk people who have, quite rightly, been the first to get the vaccine. If the response was then 'I'm alright Jack, I had my vaccine so I am off to the Costas, thanks for protecting me now I am off to have some fun whilst you are stuck indoors' I would be seriously hacked off. In my mind, if vaccination is a requirement then nobody travels abroad on holiday until everyone has been offered the jab. 

You suddenly give extra freedoms to those who lockdown was meant to protect and compliance with lockdown will end.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 11, 2021)

Slime said:



			According to the BBC we shouldn't book holidays abroad or at home because ''Summer has been put on hold''.
Who makes this hysterical crap up?
		
Click to expand...

Think it might be just reacting to current tabloid journalism fashion ... they are under a lot of pressure currently with their peers calling them “woke” which seems to have now become an insult. 
ITN’s Tom Bradbury is quite amusing with a little smirk after such comments etc ..
But let’s be honest here, why would you go anywhere that hasn’t got the virus under control? Also why should you be let back in without doing 2 weeks isolation? There is still a risk so sure go on holiday but don’t risk everyone else and accept the penalties of doing so. 
I am content to stay at home but if some person gets the golf courses shut down because they wanted a holiday in a virus epicentre then I cannot imagine I would have much sympathy.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Staff won't be a rate-limiting step for a while. Loads of volunteers have come forward, some retired and non-clinical doctors, retired nurses, paramedics and non-healthcare people trained up too vaccinate (which is not very difficult).
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update, glad to be wrong.


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## patricks148 (Feb 11, 2021)

Guys starting to get political... lets steer clear please


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## Bdill93 (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Honestly, yes. One of the purposes of lockdown, which has kept us at home on and off for a year, has been to protect the more at risk people who have, quite rightly, been the first to get the vaccine. If the response was then 'I'm alright Jack, I had my vaccine so I am off to the Costas, thanks for protecting me now I am off to have some fun whilst you are stuck indoors' I would be seriously hacked off. In my mind, if vaccination is a requirement then nobody travels abroad on holiday until everyone has been offered the jab.

You suddenly give extra freedoms to those who lockdown was meant to protect and compliance with lockdown will end.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree with you! Im 27, I wont be vaccinated for months and months. Ive worked every day since lockdown 1 (in a school). In my opinion, I deserve *the option *for a holiday whenever everyone else does!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Honestly, yes. One of the purposes of lockdown, which has kept us at home on and off for a year, has been to protect the more at risk people who have, quite rightly, been the first to get the vaccine. If the response was then 'I'm alright Jack, I had my vaccine so I am off to the Costas, thanks for protecting me now I am off to have some fun whilst you are stuck indoors' I would be seriously hacked off. In my mind, if vaccination is a requirement then nobody travels abroad on holiday until everyone has been offered the jab.

You suddenly give extra freedoms to those who lockdown was meant to protect and compliance with lockdown will end.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with that. However, there are a number of younger people who have been saying we should isolate the old and vunrable and let the rest get on with life, why would they not accept the same when the boot is on the other foot.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 11, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Totally agree with you! Im 27, I wont be vaccinated for months and months. Ive worked every day since lockdown 1 (in a school). In my opinion, I deserve *the option *for a holiday whenever everyone else does!
		
Click to expand...

Every day......inc weekends ?
Problem is there are many many other essential workers from refuse collectors to tax collectors who will feel equally entitled.


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Honestly, yes. One of the purposes of lockdown, which has kept us at home on and off for a year, has been to protect the more at risk people who have, quite rightly, been the first to get the vaccine. If the response was then 'I'm alright Jack, I had my vaccine so I am off to the Costas, thanks for protecting me now I am off to have some fun whilst you are stuck indoors' I would be seriously hacked off. In my mind, if vaccination is a requirement then nobody travels abroad on holiday until everyone has been offered the jab.

You suddenly give extra freedoms to those who lockdown was meant to protect and compliance with lockdown will end.
		
Click to expand...

Just to point out what may be seen to be pedantic, but the most at risk are not necessarily the oldest. Risk is a combination of personal susceptibility and exposure. Older people have an increased susceptibility, for sure, but not necessarily the greatest exposure. A middle aged ambulance driver has lower personal susceptibility but might higher exposure. And we also know than men have a higher susepcptibility than women, approx 5 years of risk, and BAME more than white, of a similar magnitude. A proper risk-based approach would put men and BAME into one risk category higher, and male BAME two. Equally, clinically extremely vulnerable is not a homogeneous category either, with a fair range of risk across those in that category. The JCVI prioritisation was really about administrative simplicity with a veneer of risk-based.


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## GB72 (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Just to point out what may be seen to be pedantic, but the most at risk are not necessarily the oldest. Risk is a combination of personal susceptibility and exposure. Older people have an increased susceptibility, for sure, but not necessarily the greatest exposure. A middle aged ambulance driver has lower personal susceptibility but might higher exposure. And we also know than men have a higher susepcptibility than women, approx 5 years of risk, and BAME more than white, of a similar magnitude. A proper risk-based approach would put men and BAME into one risk category higher, and male BAME two. Equally, clinically extremely vulnerable is not a homogeneous category either, with a fair range of risk across those in that category. The JCVI prioritisation was really about administrative simplicity with a veneer of risk-based.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with that and I am actually supportive of the idea of those with greatest exposure being higher up the vaccine list. I think the basic though is that you are just asking for trouble if you grant additional freedoms to those who have been vaccinated months before many will get the chance.


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## Bdill93 (Feb 11, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Every day......inc weekends ?
Problem is there are many many other essential workers from refuse collectors to tax collectors who will feel equally entitled.
		
Click to expand...

Im not trying to be enititled. Im saying that you cant let the vaccinated travel and leave the unvaccinated stranded in the UK.

I check work related systems daily, I'm senior management, so yes, even weekends. Maybe not 9-5 but the point stands.

You cant lock down those of us who have done all we can to keep the country running longer than those who have been vaccinated due to their age. Its simply unfair.

All im asking for is - dont open the borders for the few, it must be for the many.


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## GB72 (Feb 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree with that. However, there are a number of younger people who have been saying we should isolate the old and vunrable and let the rest get on with life, why would they not accept the same when the boot is on the other foot.
		
Click to expand...

Because that did not happen. If the older members of the population had been isolated then there is a strong case to grant further freedoms on vaccination. As it happened, we all went through lockdown and so we all continue with the restrictions until everyone has been offered the jab.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			Im not trying to be enititled. Im saying that you cant let the vaccinated travel and leave the unvaccinated stranded in the UK.

I check work related systems daily, I'm senior management, so yes, even weekends. Maybe not 9-5 but the point stands.

You cant lock down those of us who have done all we can to keep the country running longer than those who have been vaccinated due to their age. Its simply unfair.

All im asking for is - dont open the borders for the few, it must be for the many.
		
Click to expand...

I agree in principle with what you say, but if Spain/Portugal/A.N. Other Country states you must be vaccinated to visit, then I can’t imagine our Government having any say in the matter.


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Agree with that and I am actually supportive of the idea of those with greatest exposure being higher up the vaccine list. I think the basic though is that you are just asking for trouble if you grant additional freedoms to those who have been vaccinated months before many will get the chance.
		
Click to expand...

Well, it is going to happen. The US has started to pave the path: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/10/health/covid-vaccinated-quarantine-cdc-guidance/index.html


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree with that. However, there are a number of younger people who have been saying we should isolate the old and vunrable and let the rest get on with life, why would they not accept the same when the boot is on the other foot.
		
Click to expand...

Because that’s not happened - the vunerable wouldn’t accept that if it happened just as others wouldn’t accept it relaxations happened for those with the vaccines


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## GB72 (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, it is going to happen. The US has started to pave the path: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/10/health/covid-vaccinated-quarantine-cdc-guidance/index.html

Click to expand...

That is interesting. Do we know enough about how the vaccine impacts on individuals spreading covid to make such a call and allow those that have been vaccinated an exemption from self isolating if in contact with someone who has it.


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## drdel (Feb 11, 2021)

The vaccination programme is primarily about managing ÑHS capacity to treat those at risk of serious illness.


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			That is interesting. Do we know enough about how the vaccine impacts on individuals spreading covid to make such a call and allow those that have been vaccinated an exemption from self isolating if in contact with someone who has it.
		
Click to expand...

The scientific community has long believed that vaccination will reduce transmission, although the official line has been that there is no direct evidence that it does. It stops virus replicating, it will be difficult to imagine a scenario where the recipient was protected but still just as transmissible as if they never had the vacc.

The bigger problem is the societal one. Govt (not just in the UK) has been very concerned to avoid created a privileged subpopulation because the rest of us may react badly to people going to the pub, football and holiday. But there comes a tipping point where that will have to happen in some way, and the vaccination cards mentioned by some Govt person the other day are one step, and the CDC step another. Note that the CDC regs only cover people for 3 months after the second vacc, which may be a stepping stone and is very conservative in terms of likely response, and it currently only covers US approved vaccs, so no AZ (yet).


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			The vaccination programme is primarily about managing ÑHS capacity to treat those at risk of serious illness.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that is why they are dong it, but unfortunately that is a rather one-dimensional objective, the highest transmitters fill hospitals with multiple people.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Because that did not happen. If the older members of the population had been isolated then there is a strong case to grant further freedoms on vaccination. As it happened, we all went through lockdown and so we all continue with the restrictions until everyone has been offered the jab.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			Because that’s not happened - the vunerable wouldn’t accept that if it happened just as others wouldn’t accept it relaxations happened for those with the vaccines
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't a serious proposition, rather a tongue in cheek comment for those who were suggesting it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 11, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I genuinely think I'm turning into Victor Meldrew. I'm growing less patient and tolerant with the stupid, ignorant, I'll informed and inconsiderate people who seem to becoming more prevalent these days.
		
Click to expand...

That's because they are.........more prevalent 😀


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## harpo_72 (Feb 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree with that. However, there are a number of younger people who have been saying we should isolate the old and vunrable and let the rest get on with life, why would they not accept the same when the boot is on the other foot.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe because they are a little short sighted or self orientated ... I think we have enough evidence to say no one is immune and Sweden have actually confirmed that herd immunity doesn’t happen ... we all need to isolate and take the opportunity of spreading out of the equation.
I travelled back before Christmas due to work, and isolated properly for 2 weeks had a COVID test post Christmas.. all was fine, it was a little inconvenient but I would rather that minor inconvenience than lying in a bed struggling to breath and the possibility of losing my life or passing it to someone who could lose their life. 
The more selfish phaffing we have the longer we all will have this in our lives... so I am totally up for isolating everyone irresp of jab or not on re-entry to the U.K. and there should be no people who don’t have to do it because they wear Lycra or have fat wallets and treat cocaine like digestive ..


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## harpo_72 (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I agree that is why they are dong it, but unfortunately that is a rather one-dimensional objective, the highest transmitters fill hospitals with multiple people.
		
Click to expand...

The big question that needs to be answered, probably very frequently, is does the vaccine stop you transmitting the virus ? If the answer is no, then the jab for travel is pointless discussion ... I personally don’t want you seeking new opportunities to catch some new variant.

Sorry for the selfish attitude, but can we just get this done and dusted and stop thinking it won’t happen to me ?


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			The big question that needs to be answered, probably very frequently, is does the vaccine stop you transmitting the virus ? If the answer is no, then the jab for travel is pointless discussion ... I personally don’t want you seeking new opportunities to catch some new variant.

Sorry for the selfish attitude, but can we just get this done and dusted and stop thinking it won’t happen to me ?
		
Click to expand...

Who exactly thinks it won't happen to them? Not me.

The vaccine almost certainly does reduce transmission. Whether it eliminates it is not known. It is quite hard to study the specific transmission patters, because you need to be able to demonstrate that someone got it from another particular person.

New variants are going to emerge often while there is still endemic virus. There is always going to be a degree of catchup by vaccine makers.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Who exactly thinks it won't happen to them? Not me.

The vaccine almost certainly does reduce transmission. Whether it eliminates it is not known. It is quite hard to study the specific transmission patters, because you need to be able to demonstrate that someone got it from another particular person.

New variants are going to emerge often while there is still endemic virus. There is always going to be a degree of catchup by vaccine makers.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry was general statement of people think it won’t be me ..


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			C,mon, how much time understanding? and explanation is needed🙄
That is procrastination.
Their refusals, because of the resulting increased instances of spread of the disease, are
akin to refusing to follow the lockdown rules. The result is the same. Unnecessary spread of a deadly disease.
So why don't you condemn it , as I believe you would condemn refusal to obey lockdown rules.?
How long did it take you to understand what is involved.
The anti vaxxers know the score. They are making conscious decisions.
		
Click to expand...

As at the moment it is concern amongst a very elderly ethnic group who may or may not have a good understanding of the English language I for one don’t put them in the anti vaxxer group if, when it comes to younger members of the ethnic groups acting the same way when it’s their turn I would reconsider my views on the matter.

Whilst we live in a country where freedom of choice is a way of life it’s not for you, or me, to condemn anyone until we have the full facts on why this might be happening.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The vaccination part may not be difficult - but the 'governance' and 'due diligence' training that has to be taken and 'passed' before an individual can give a vaccination is quite burdensome...and might put some off.  Hopefully not to the detriment of delivering first jag to plan as second jag recipients come in - but we shouldn't assume that the process to be followed for onboarding someone to given vaccinations is quick and easy; it's a bit of a pain.
		
Click to expand...

Hundreds of those who volunteered at the beginning of lock down one have already been trained up for vaccinating people and are now doing it and many of us are doing the stewarding. The governance and due diligence had already been carried out back last year.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe Hancock doesn’t understand why Grant Shapps only stated yesterday it was “too soon to book a domestic holiday”

But hey, easier to deflect on to headline writers than question a colleague.
		
Click to expand...

No deflection, Hancock booked it months ago not yesterday its just that some idiots want to use it as a headline.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Agree with that and I am actually supportive of the idea of those with greatest exposure being higher up the vaccine list. I think the basic though is that you are just asking for trouble if you grant additional freedoms to those who have been vaccinated months before many will get the chance.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with your last sentence.
But I think the vaccination "order" was based on who was most dying and seriously ill than on who is likely to more easily catch it, and thus spread it more rapidly., the latter, for example, being Ethan's ambulance driver.

Very difficult choices to be made: imagine care homes being well down the list.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			The vaccination programme is primarily about managing ÑHS capacity to treat those at risk of serious illness.
		
Click to expand...

Well, the *order *of vaccination is, yes. But the overall aim is to get the population as a whole resistant to the disease.
That is why enough vaccine for the whole country has been ordered, and why all will be offered it.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			No deflection, Hancock booked it months ago not yesterday its just that some idiots want to use it as a headline.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not the headline though is it, it’s the mixed messages that are coming out in the space of a few hours.

I’m not sure the “idiots” are the ones writing the headlines or the ones giving them the opportunity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Hundreds of those who volunteered at the beginning of lock down one have already been trained up for vaccinating people and are now doing it and many of us are doing the stewarding. The governance and due diligence had already been carried out back last year.
		
Click to expand...

Not saying it hasn't.  Just pointing out that signing up to give vaccinations and being trained and cleared to give them isn't quite as simple as it might seem.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As at the moment it is concern amongst a very elderly ethnic group who may or may not have a good understanding of the English language I for one don’t put them in the anti vaxxer group if, when it comes to younger members of the ethnic groups acting the same way when it’s their turn I would reconsider my views on the matter.

Whilst we live in a country where freedom of choice is a way of life it’s not for you, or me, to condemn anyone until we have the full facts on why this might be happening.
		
Click to expand...

Surely a way to educate them is to make it clear in whatever language they understand what the alternative is if they refuse the vaccination.

It also seems to be not only elderly in the ethnic group not taking up their vaccination offers, there are quite low numbers in care home staff.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/12/near...ff-may-refuse-to-take-covid-vaccine-13743538/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/01/half-of-care-home-staff-at-uks-largest-provider


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not the headline though is it, it’s the mixed messages that are coming out in the space of a few hours.

I’m not sure the “idiots” are the ones writing the headlines or the ones giving them the opportunity.

Click to expand...

If it was a case of one minister saying “Don’t book a summer holiday” and another minister saying “I booked my holiday today” then I can see where the mixed messages are coming from but as it isn’t the idiots are those that try to make a non point.


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not saying it hasn't.  Just pointing out that signing up to give vaccinations and being trained and cleared to give them isn't quite as simple as it might seem.
		
Click to expand...

It should be a lot simpler than it is, though. Lots of unnecessary training needed for what is essentially a simple technical task performed under supervision.


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## larmen (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It should be a lot simpler than it is, though. Lots of unnecessary training needed for what is essentially a simple technical task performed under supervision.
		
Click to expand...

Can’t we get a robot to do it? ;-)


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Just to point out what may be seen to be pedantic, but the most at risk are not necessarily the oldest. Risk is a combination of personal susceptibility and exposure. Older people have an increased susceptibility, for sure, but not necessarily the greatest exposure. A middle aged ambulance driver has lower personal susceptibility but might higher exposure. And we also know than men have a higher susepcptibility than women, approx 5 years of risk, and BAME more than white, of a similar magnitude. A proper risk-based approach would put men and BAME into one risk category higher, and male BAME two. Equally, clinically extremely vulnerable is not a homogeneous category either, with a fair range of risk across those in that category. The JCVI prioritisation was really about administrative simplicity with a veneer of risk-based.
		
Click to expand...

Here in Spain the schedule for who should be vaccinated is; currently, residents in Care Homes and those that work in them. Then those in the community over 70 years of age and healthcare workers, Police, Fire brigades and teachers - think this group is about to start. Then the over 55's to start in late April.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If it was a case of one minister saying “Don’t book a summer holiday” and another minister saying “I booked my holiday today” then I can see where the mixed messages are coming from but as it isn’t the idiots are those that try to make a non point.
		
Click to expand...

The situation has changed and evolves constantly, the latest info is, it’s maybe too soon or don’t book a domestic holiday.
Not, “ooh look how clever I am, I booked mine months ago” 

Not a very joined up picture, but then it never will be when people keep blaming the media.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

Asked a question and answered, I’m not blaming the media, they are paid to make a story out of nothing, it’s the only way they can justify 24 hr news.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			“ooh look how clever I am, I booked mine months ago."
		
Click to expand...

But that was not what Hancock said. 

His point was that he had booked it some time ago and hoped that it would still be possible. 

Not exactly as presented by the media.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Asked a question and answered, I’m not blaming the media, they are paid to make a story out of nothing, it’s the only way they can justify 24 hr news.
		
Click to expand...

Is it really a nothing story when questions are asked on Government Briefing las night, TV & Radio today, and also makes the front pages of Sky/BBC/ITV news pages.

Questions being asked by Tourism Bodies, Politicians on all sides of the Political spectrum, all seeking clarity.

Seems to be only a non story by those not realising the impact it has on the livelihoods of normal people.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			But that was not what Hancock said.

His point was that he had booked it some time ago and hoped that it would still be possible.

Not exactly as presented by the media.
		
Click to expand...

There is a mixed message out there, how does his answer do anything for what the PM and Shapps said? Him booking a holiday is irrelevant to the current advice.

Surely he’d of been better off saying the situation has/is changing and people should listen to current advice, not deflect on to the headline writers, they haven’t caused the confusion.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Honestly, yes. One of the purposes of lockdown, which has kept us at home on and off for a year, has been to protect the more at risk people who have, quite rightly, been the first to get the vaccine. If the response was then 'I'm alright Jack, I had my vaccine so I am off to the Costas, thanks for protecting me now I am off to have some fun whilst you are stuck indoors' I would be seriously hacked off. In my mind, if vaccination is a requirement then nobody travels abroad on holiday until everyone has been offered the jab.

You suddenly give extra freedoms to those who lockdown was meant to protect and compliance with lockdown will end.
		
Click to expand...

Alternatively you could view it that those who have been vaccinated are probably nearer end of life so are taking a last chance to have a holiday, but more importantly the cash flow they generate might just keep businesses afloat.  If we wait until everyone has had a jab before creating a mad rush for holidays, how many places will have gone bust & how many people will be disappointed because the demand for holidays far outstrips supply?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			There is a mixed message out there, how does his answer do anything for what the PM and Shapps said? Him booking a holiday is irrelevant to the current advice.

Surely he’d of been better off saying the situation has/is changing and people should listen to current advice, not deflect on to the headline writers, they haven’t caused the confusion.
		
Click to expand...

Hancock did not say that his actions reflect the current situation and guidelines.

Like some on this very forum he booked a holiday for the forthcoming summer at a time when the guidelines were different.

He hopes that the situation may have improved sufficiently for him to be able to fulfil that booking. 

I don't think that is too hard for people to understand.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Hancock did not say that his actions reflect the current situation and guidelines.

I don't think that is too hard for people to understand.
		
Click to expand...

You think


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Hancock did not say that his actions reflect the current situation and guidelines.

Like some on this very forum he booked a holiday for the forthcoming summer at a time when the guidelines were different.

He hopes that the situation may have improved sufficiently for him to be able to fulfil that booking.

I don't think that is too hard for people to understand.
		
Click to expand...

So should people go ahead and book a holiday now in the same hope?


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So should people go ahead and book a holiday now in the same hope?
		
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It seems they already have as bookings down here are up 80%. Surly it’s a risk assessment exercise, if you want to take the risk and the booking has the right cancellation policy it’s up to you.

Ive got HID cleaning my clubs but doesn’t mean I’m going to be allowed to use them.


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## Robster59 (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It seems they already have as bookings down here are up 80%. Surly it’s a risk assessment exercise, if you want to take the risk and the booking has the right cancellation policy it’s up to you.

*Ive got HID cleaning my clubs* but doesn’t mean I’m going to be allowed to use them.
		
Click to expand...

Where do you find these women and does she have a sister?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It seems they already have as bookings down here are up 80%. Surly it’s a risk assessment exercise, if you want to take the risk and the booking has the right cancellation policy it’s up to you.

Ive got HID cleaning my clubs but doesn’t mean I’m going to be allowed to use them.
		
Click to expand...

I’m sure we should be following Government advice, isn’t that the mantra rolled out on here time and time again?

Those that have booked previous to this advice, good on them, not an issue.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Hancock did not say that his actions reflect the current situation and guidelines.

Like some on this very forum he booked a holiday for the forthcoming summer at a time when the guidelines were different.

He hopes that the situation may have improved sufficiently for him to be able to fulfil that booking.

I don't think that is too hard for people to understand.
		
Click to expand...

I recently booked up a little holiday in Dorset for August, returnable deposit if cancelled up to a week before.  It wasn't easy to find an available date that time of year so plenty of people optimistic.


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

Just had a call asking me to pop down for my jab, unfortunately the weekend started early this week.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Those that have booked previous to this advice, good on them, not an issue.
		
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Is that not exactly what Hancock said that he had done?


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## road2ruin (Feb 11, 2021)

Got our booking done today for an August week in Cornwall sorted today, took the view that waiting would only lead to disappointment in terms of what is available and/or an increase in the cost. 

Cancellation policy is a refund or a change of date so it’s a no brainier not to do it now imo.


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## Imurg (Feb 11, 2021)

What i get from the advice is "don't book something at the moment as we don't know if you'll be able to go or not. And if you can't go, don't say we didn't tell you"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Is that not exactly what Hancock said that he had done?
		
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You’re missing the point! It’s people blaming the media for mixed messages, Hancock could of said the situation has changed and as of (insert date) the advice is as stated by (insert whoever)

I’ve never once said Hancock booking a holiday was wrong.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What i get from the advice is "don't book something at the moment as we don't know if you'll be able to go or not. And if you can't go, don't say we didn't tell you"
		
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Imurg for MP


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## road2ruin (Feb 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What i get from the advice is "don't book something at the moment as we don't know if you'll be able to go or not. And if you can't go, don't say we didn't tell you"
		
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I think this should be the clear advice that they give, let people make up their own mind but be aware that they only have themselves to blame if things go pear shaped. The trouble is they’ve not said this explicitly.


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## Imurg (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Imurg for MP

Click to expand...

Up Yours


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 11, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359910342386724865

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1359918032496324609


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What i get from the advice is "don't book something at the moment as we don't know if you'll be able to go or not. And if you can't go, don't say we didn't tell you"
		
Click to expand...




road2ruin said:



			I think this should be the clear advice that they give, let people make up their own mind but be aware that they only have themselves to blame if things go pear shaped. The trouble is they’ve not said this explicitly.
		
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Isn't that exactly what's been said? Matt Hancock clearly said "it's too early to know whether summer holidays can go ahead". Grant Schapps said, "people shouldn't be booking holidays right now - not domestically or internationally". I can't see any mixed messaging there, other than from those that are looking to find one for political reasons.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Isn't that exactly what's been said? Matt Hancock clearly said "it's too early to know whether summer holidays can go ahead". Grant Schapps said, "people shouldn't be booking holidays right now - not domestically or internationally".* I can't see any mixed messaging there, other than from those that are looking to find one for political reasons.*

Click to expand...

You mean like this bloke? “Expressing frustration at recent announcements regarding travel, the vice-chair of the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers Sir Charles Walker accused both Matt Hancock and Grant Shapps of unacceptable behaviour.”

Maybe we could have a debate without people only seeing a political angle!


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## pauljames87 (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So should people go ahead and book a holiday now in the same hope?
		
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I'd rather listen to professor van tamme 

The more elaborate your summer plans the more likely they are to have to change 

Keep it simple


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You mean like this bloke? “Expressing frustration at recent announcements regarding travel, the vice-chair of the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers Sir Charles Walker accused both Matt Hancock and Grant Shapps of unacceptable behaviour.”

Maybe we could have a debate without people only seeing a political angle!
		
Click to expand...

So you don't think that Charles Walker has his own political reasons for making those comments?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			So you don't think that Charles Walker has his own political reasons for making those comments?
		
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Oh come on! You’re bringing politics in to this, my point has always been the deflection of issues on to the media away from those in authority (regardless of political party/alliances etc) 

People in those positions, imo, should at least be singing from the same song sheet, regardless of who they work for.


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## drdel (Feb 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Up Yours

Click to expand...

You just past the Brussels entrance attitude exam!


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2021)

Covid deniers catch Covid; any sympathy? 

A couple at the bowls club, perhaps more acquaintances than friends - he's a bit odd anyway. He is a rabid Covid denier. Pumps it out on FB, I occasionally unblock him but soon block him again, and he isn't quiet at the club either. His wife, sort of, follows him for a quiet life but also spouts it on occasion too. They live in a small village a few miles away and have a group of friends at the same end of the spectrum, some louder than others. The house parties never stopped, nor the continental greeting/hugging when they meet up. Covid got into that group just before Christmas, and out of 20 or so of them, 13 have/had it.

Sympathy? Yes I don't want any one to suffer. But anger too. He got over it about a week ago but his wife is very ill - yesterday he refused her request for an ambulance. She messaged friends who rang for one. Today, as he's feeling better, he turned up at the bowls club for a social visit with those of us who do voluntary work around the club.

The town hall, mayor's office, has been made aware of his visit. The mayor controls the Guardia Local. How it progresses from there, who knows but over here it could be a €10,000 fine and 28 days in prison.


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## drdel (Feb 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Covid deniers catch Covid; any sympathy?

A couple at the bowls club, perhaps more acquaintances than friends - he's a bit odd anyway. He is a rabid Covid denier. Pumps it out on FB, I occasionally unblock him but soon block him again, and he isn't quiet at the club either. His wife, sort of, follows him for a quiet life but also spouts it on occasion too. They live in a small village a few miles away and have a group of friends at the same end of the spectrum, some louder than others. The house parties never stopped, nor the continental greeting/hugging when they meet up. Covid got into that group just before Christmas, and out of 20 or so of them, 13 have/had it.

Sympathy? Yes I don't want any one to suffer. But anger too. He got over it about a week ago but his wife is very ill - yesterday he refused her request for an ambulance. She messaged friends who rang for one. Today, as he's feeling better, he turned up at the bowls club for a social visit with those of us who do voluntary work around the club.

The town hall, mayor's office, has been made aware of his visit. The mayor controls the Guardia Local. How it progresses from there, who knows but over here it could be a €10,000 fine and 28 days in prison.
		
Click to expand...

Idiots. Let's hope they raid his wallet.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Covid deniers catch Covid; any sympathy?

A couple at the bowls club, perhaps more acquaintances than friends - he's a bit odd anyway. He is a rabid Covid denier. Pumps it out on FB, I occasionally unblock him but soon block him again, and he isn't quiet at the club either. His wife, sort of, follows him for a quiet life but also spouts it on occasion too. They live in a small village a few miles away and have a group of friends at the same end of the spectrum, some louder than others. The house parties never stopped, nor the continental greeting/hugging when they meet up. Covid got into that group just before Christmas, and out of 20 or so of them, 13 have/had it.

Sympathy? Yes I don't want any one to suffer. But anger too. He got over it about a week ago but his wife is very ill - yesterday he refused her request for an ambulance. She messaged friends who rang for one. Today, as he's feeling better, he turned up at the bowls club for a social visit with those of us who do voluntary work around the club.

The town hall, mayor's office, has been made aware of his visit. The mayor controls the Guardia Local. How it progresses from there, who knows but over here it could be a €10,000 fine and 28 days in prison.
		
Click to expand...

Frightening there are people like that in this world, shocking he refused his wife’s request.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Covid deniers catch Covid; any sympathy?

A couple at the bowls club, perhaps more acquaintances than friends - he's a bit odd anyway. He is a rabid Covid denier. Pumps it out on FB, I occasionally unblock him but soon block him again, and he isn't quiet at the club either. His wife, sort of, follows him for a quiet life but also spouts it on occasion too. They live in a small village a few miles away and have a group of friends at the same end of the spectrum, some louder than others. The house parties never stopped, nor the continental greeting/hugging when they meet up. Covid got into that group just before Christmas, and out of 20 or so of them, 13 have/had it.

Sympathy? Yes I don't want any one to suffer. But anger too. He got over it about a week ago but his wife is very ill - yesterday he refused her request for an ambulance. She messaged friends who rang for one. Today, as he's feeling better, he turned up at the bowls club for a social visit with those of us who do voluntary work around the club.

The town hall, mayor's office, has been made aware of his visit. The mayor controls the Guardia Local. How it progresses from there, who knows but over here it could be a €10,000 fine and 28 days in prison.
		
Click to expand...

You're a better man than I am Brian, I have no sympathy for him or any of the circle.  I don't wish them ill, but they have brought this upon themselves from what you've described, and he will bring it upon others by his behaviour today.  I have sympathy for the victims of Covid but not the perpetrators of Covid.


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## larmen (Feb 11, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It seems they already have as bookings down here are up 80%. Surly it’s a risk assessment exercise, if you want to take the risk and the booking has the right cancellation policy it’s up to you.
		
Click to expand...

I renewed my annual travel insurance in November or December. I have preexisting conditions that actually makes it quite a chunk of money, which feels a bit of a waste now. But I previously got burned when I let an insurance expire and planning to get the next one on the next travel.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m sure we should be following Government advice, isn’t that the mantra rolled out on here time and time again?

Those that have booked previous to this advice, good on them, not an issue.
		
Click to expand...

Booking a holiday isn't against the law. Going on one (currently) is.


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## larmen (Feb 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Covid deniers catch Covid; any sympathy?

...

He got over it about a week ago but his wife is very ill .... Today, as he's feeling better, he turned up at the bowls club for a social visit... it could be a €10,000 fine and 28 days in prison.
		
Click to expand...

That seems fair to me. His wife still has it and he should be isolating. Now in a prison cell.


What I find weird is that households catch it at different times. Friends of us down the road, she had it before Christmas, he has it now (well, last week, no idea what status he is at this point).
He was so perplexed not to have had it when we bumped into him a week after new year, couldn't understand it.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			You're a better man than I am Brian, I have no sympathy for him or any of the circle.  I don't wish them ill, but they have brought this upon themselves from what you've described, and he will bring it upon others by his behaviour today.  I have sympathy for the victims of Covid but not the perpetrators of Covid.
		
Click to expand...

Luke 23:34. Forgive them for they don't know what they are doing. Sometimes, you've just got to accept that you can't educate some people.

Equally, I think your last sentence resonates well with me.


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## Slime (Feb 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			You just past the *Brussels* entrance attitude exam!
		
Click to expand...


Ooh, did someone mention sprouts?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You’re missing the point! It’s people blaming the media for mixed messages, Hancock could of said the situation has changed and as of (insert date) the advice is as stated by (insert whoever)

I’ve never once said Hancock booking a holiday was wrong.
		
Click to expand...

In his round of daytime TV shows Hancock did say on several occasions that the situation was constantly evolving but, as usual, the smart arsed presenters did not respond to that as it did not suit their predetermined narrative. 

So often their follow up questions are based upon an answer that the interviewee has not given. 

I think this may be due to the fact that the presenters are precisely that and not journalists. The result is that the interview has to be scripted for them with assumptions made on the answers.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Luke 23:34. Forgive them for they don't know what they are doing. Sometimes, you've just got to accept that you can't educate some people.

Equally, I think your last sentence resonates well with me.
		
Click to expand...

You're more forgiving than me, I cannot believe that they don't know what they are doing, or at least the risk they are running.  I'm afraid I've cleared up too many messes over the years that were caused by selfish behaviour.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 11, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			In his round of daytime TV shows Hancock did say on several occasions that the situation was constantly evolving but, as usual, the smart arsed presenters did not respond to that as it did not suit their predetermined narrative.

So often their follow up questions are based upon an answer that the interviewee has not given.

I think this may be due to the fact that the presenters are precisely that and not journalists. The result is that the interview has to be scripted for them with assumptions made on the answers.
		
Click to expand...

You could be right or they know they never get a straight answer to the questioned asked and have to repeat it.

Plus, what amazes me with all these people, why don’t they just give an honest answer sometimes by saying they don’t know and will find out and get back to them.

I find neither the press/media or politicians (of any persuasion) can be fully trusted these days.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You could be right or they know they never get a straight answer to the questioned asked and have to repeat it.

Plus, what amazes me with all these people, why don’t they just give an honest answer sometimes by saying they don’t know and will find out and get back to them.

I find neither the press/media or politicians (of any persuasion) can be fully trusted these days.
		
Click to expand...

They will never admit to not knowing the answer as, in their eyes,  it would be a sign of weakness. 

Our big problem is that both politics and the media have become totally subservient to the cult of personalty and celebrity.

There are a few exceptions but not enough.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m sure we should be following Government advice, isn’t that the mantra rolled out on here time and time again?

Those that have booked previous to this advice, good on them, not an issue.
		
Click to expand...

There’s a very good write up on the governments handling of this pandemic since before the first lockdown on the sky news app. Very thorough and informative. I would advise anyone to spend five mins reading it. 👍


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## Old Skier (Feb 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Keep it simple
		
Click to expand...

Like the brilliant short golf break holiday organised by @Papas1982 and @richart


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## IainP (Feb 11, 2021)

Just had a text from the GP practice and did an online vaccination consent. Seemed straightforward, even though I'm not due for a couple of months. The good lady had her vaccination two days ago and has had the more severe side effects, although was partly expected.


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## Robster59 (Feb 11, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Up Yours

Click to expand...

With that response, Imurg for President!


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			With that response, Imurg for President!
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe even a ...... mod!


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## Imurg (Feb 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Or maybe even a ...... mod!
		
Click to expand...

Now you've taken it too far...


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## SaintHacker (Feb 11, 2021)

Daughter in law got jabbed tuesday. Apparently she woke up Wednesday feeling 'like a train had hit her', but feeling quite a bit brighter today. Its a massive relief as i dread to think what would have happened had she caught full blown covid. And in other positive news Mrs SH had her first jab tonight,  second one booked for early April.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

Going to be Interesting come the 22nd.

Feeling I get from a lot of young people is as soon as their family are fully vaccinated, they will ignore any further lockdown. 

Not sure how I'll react, fingers crossed for a decent roadmap.


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Going to be Interesting come the 22nd.

Feeling I get from a lot of young people is as soon as their family are fully vaccinated, they will ignore any further lockdown.

Not sure how I'll react, fingers crossed for a decent roadmap.
		
Click to expand...


News reporting this morning that lockdown possibly staying in place until all adults have been vaccinated........


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			News reporting this morning that lockdown possibly staying in place until all adults have been vaccinated........

Click to expand...

That maybe getting twisted/misunderstood, it’s one senior scientist suggesting restrictions, not lockdown, should stay in place until every adult is vaccinated.

I’d ignore these one off soundbytes.


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## Imurg (Feb 12, 2021)

I would be surprised if all restrictions were lifted before all adults have been jabbed.
Most, yes but not all.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			News reporting this morning that lockdown possibly staying in place until all adults have been vaccinated........

Click to expand...

Highlights miss reporting at it's best by some.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Highlights miss reporting at it's best by some.
		
Click to expand...

Or the reader/listener has misunderstood/got confused and not bothered to check what has actually been printed/stated and fired from the hip.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Going to be Interesting come the 22nd.

Feeling I get from a lot of young people is as soon as their family are fully vaccinated, they will ignore any further lockdown.

Not sure how I'll react, fingers crossed for a decent roadmap.
		
Click to expand...

With most young people potentially having to wait until August/September etc for the jab when they have it most of the restrictions will be lifted 



need_my_wedge said:



			News reporting this morning that lockdown possibly staying in place until all adults have been vaccinated........

Click to expand...

It’s one person from Public England Health saying that some restrictions will be in place until all adults will be vaccinated- I suspect if there are it will be the very smallest of restrictions

I don’t what is going on at the moment but lockdown is working , the vaccine is working and we are moving forwards 

But there appears to be only the desire to concentrate on the negative and doom and gloom from the Media and it’s not doing people any good 

The anger and peoples mental health will start to get worse if they don’t start being more positive in the media, 

The roadmap they announce is going to be key , it will have to concentrate on the positives and get us moving againb


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## Slime (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



*The anger and peoples' mental health will start to get worse if they don’t start being more positive in the media.*

Click to expand...

I totally agree, but I don't think the media actually give a toss!
In fact, it'll give them plenty of headlines to write and twist to fit into their particular agendas.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or the reader/listener has misunderstood/got confused and not bothered to check what has actually been printed/stated and fired from the hip.

Click to expand...

Or the reporter in later items miss represents what was actually said.


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## harpo_72 (Feb 12, 2021)

Slime said:



			I totally agree, but I don't think the media actually give a toss!
In fact, it'll give them plenty of headlines to write and twist to fit into their particular agendas.
		
Click to expand...

They make money by fabrication and weaving webs of deceit... I have started to turn stuff off , walk away , stop eating anything that doesn’t meet my pleasure scale or is winding me up .... I think it is good for my health


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Or the reporter in later items miss represents what was actually said.
		
Click to expand...

Definitely, there’s no way you can let joe public make their own mind up!


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			They make money by fabrication and weaving webs of deceit... *I have started to turn stuff off* , walk away , stop eating anything that doesn’t meet my pleasure scale or is winding me up .... I think it is good for my health 

Click to expand...

Exactly.
You're not forced to listen to or watch the news, just turn it off.
If anything important happens, you'll soon find out.


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 12, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or the reader/listener has misunderstood/got confused and not bothered to check what has actually been printed/stated and fired from the hip.

Click to expand...

That is true this morning, was just posting what I heard, didn't look it up. Ironically, had a discussion with Mrs wedge just yesterday on not believing everything you read or hear..... my bad. Been a very long week at work and not thinking straight early doors. 😳


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2021)

An IT system for a crucial element of our fight to contain the virus crashes as soon as it goes live...and it‘s not as if we haven’t known for quite some time that such a system would very likely be required.  I have sympathy for the supplier as I suspect that they were not given much time to develop and load test.  I have been close to building large IT systems for the government so have a good idea how this stuff happens - and it’s usually down to delays in giving the supplier the go ahead to start building against a fixed delivery date as the requirements seem pretty understood.

Painful for the supplier and the pressure to fix it and increase capacity - if that’s the problem - will be huge...especially as quarantine starts Monday...a busy working weekend for many. Hopefully something simple. Sounds like it might be.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			That is true this morning, was just posting what I heard, didn't look it up. Ironically, had a discussion with Mrs wedge just yesterday on not believing everything you read or hear..... my bad. Been a very long week at work and not thinking straight early doors. 😳
		
Click to expand...

We all do it mate,


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## harpo_72 (Feb 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Exactly.
You're not forced to listen to or watch the news, just turn it off.
If anything important happens, you'll soon find out.
		
Click to expand...

Does upset the missus though 🤣 So now I just play call of duty mobile and get rid of my old man grumpiness on AI bots


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2021)

Weird one golf friends 

Just been invited for My vaccine by my Dr by txt (same contact details he always uses and the booking site took no personal details etc so not a scam)

No idea why I'm getting it

I'm 33 and yes a key worker but wife hasn't been offered 

Unless work have told all our GPs of our key work status and they have been given permission


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Exactly.
You're not forced to listen to or watch the news, just turn it off.
If anything important happens, you'll soon find out.
		
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I think a few on here like going to certain news sources so they can become indignant. If they triggered me as much as they do a few on here I would just avoid them.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Going to be Interesting come the 22nd.

Feeling I get from a lot of young people is as soon as their family are fully vaccinated, they will ignore any further lockdown.

Not sure how I'll react, fingers crossed for a decent roadmap.
		
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If Pubs, restaurants, cafes, gigs etc etc are closed what will they be doing other than having a party around their mates. If they do this they're just going to get reported, busted, fined or create complete anarchy on the streets.  Whatever they did it would not be as simple as saying 'up yours'


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## D-S (Feb 12, 2021)

Vaccine roll out seems quicker than calculated in some areas, around here South Glo’s/Bristol/N Somerset all over 65s in our roll up group have had jab 1 and now I know of 4 people aged 63, 63, 62 and 60 all going in next week - none of those jabbed so far have underlying health issues.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

Slime said:



			I totally agree, but I don't think the media actually give a toss!
In fact, it'll give them plenty of headlines to write and twist to fit into their particular agendas.
		
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It's 'The Bad News'


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 12, 2021)

D-S said:



			Vaccine roll out seems quicker than calculated in some areas, around here South Glo’s/Bristol/N Somerset all over 65s in our roll up group have had jab 1 and now I know of 4 people aged 63, 63, 62 and 60 all going in next week - none of those jabbed so far have underlying health issues.
		
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It seems to be dependent on organisation within an area and then doses available. Northumberland was storming ahead but then doses were diverted to other regions for a spell who were lagging behind. That obviously slowed us down. They are doing the over 70's here now but not beneath that age so far. The area you mention has been well orgnanised and have been ahead of the vaccine game from the beginning from memory. Good on them.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 12, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I believe I fall into tier 6 [turning 68 in July]...
I am having my doubts, with all the politicking, that I'll get a jab ahead of my birthday...
		
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More than happy that my doubts have proven to be unfounded...


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## Fade and Die (Feb 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Exactly.
You're not forced to listen to or watch the news, just turn it off.
If anything important happens, you'll soon find out.
		
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Wish someone would tell my dad this 😕...He watches every bit religiously and is very doubtful about the prospect of survival of the Human race!


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## larmen (Feb 12, 2021)

I think you have to watch a certain amount of news, or are we really expected to keep refreshing the gov.uk page to see changes in regulations regarding lock down? How would you even know there is a pandemic if you don't watch news, and you can't trust facebook?


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## SatchFan (Feb 12, 2021)

I reckon the nearest I'm going to get to an exotic holiday this year is staring at the pineapples and mangoes at Costa del Sainsbury's.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If Pubs, restaurants, cafes, gigs etc etc are closed what will they be doing other than having a party around their mates. If they do this they're just going to get reported, busted, fined or create complete anarchy on the streets.  Whatever they did it would not be as simple as saying 'up yours'
		
Click to expand...


If you aren't an idiot posting it on social media. You can have gatherings, meet up up with all your friends and family.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I reckon the nearest I'm going to get to an exotic holiday this year is staring at the pineapples and mangoes at Costa del Sainsbury's.
		
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Do not put pineapple on your holiday pizza, that will spoil the illusion and remind you your still in the UK.


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## bobmac (Feb 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			I think you have to watch a certain amount of news, or are we really expected to keep refreshing the gov.uk page to see changes in regulations regarding lock down? *How would you even know there is a pandemic if you don't watch news,* and you can't trust facebook?
		
Click to expand...

What's the title of this thread?


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## larmen (Feb 12, 2021)

I didn’t think about the question as us in here but as society in general.


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## GB72 (Feb 12, 2021)

OK, now I am confused. My wife has just had the text advising her that she will soon be contacted to have her jab. She is 47, has mild asthma and mild blood pressure issues but nothing serious. She works in utilities construction so could be something to do with that I guess. Not complaining, glad she is getting vaccinated soon but no idea why she is so far up the list.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			If you aren't an idiot posting it on social media. You can have gatherings, meet up up with all your friends and family.
		
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And you don't believe neighbours would report it. Honestly!


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## Ethan (Feb 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			OK, now I am confused. My wife has just had the text advising her that she will soon be contacted to have her jab. She is 47, has mild asthma and mild blood pressure issues but nothing serious. She works in utilities construction so could be something to do with that I guess. Not complaining, glad she is getting vaccinated soon but no idea why she is so far up the list.
		
Click to expand...

The computer systems used to ID people are rather stupid, so she sounds like a lowish risk person who has (just) clicked two boxes and been jumped up a bit. As a 47 year old female, she has the same base risk as a 42 year old man, and mild asthma and BP should have minimal effect on her risk score. Some people with mild asthma who take a regular steroid inhaler seem to have been dragged into a category of 'steroid dependent' even though they really aren't. Should have nothing to do with her job as far as I know, but if she has a valid invite, it would be churlish not to accept it.


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## GB72 (Feb 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The computer systems used to ID people are rather stupid, so she sounds like a lowish risk person who has (just) clicked two boxes and been jumped up a bit. As a 47 year old female, she has the same base risk as a 42 year old man, and mild asthma and BP should have minimal effect on her risk score. Some people with mild asthma who take a regular steroid inhaler seem to have been dragged into a category of 'steroid dependent' even though they really aren't. Should have nothing to do with her job as far as I know, but if she has a valid invite, it would be churlish not to accept it.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, she will be there as soon as possible. Means she can do the weekly supermarket run once her vaccine kicks in rather than me taking the extra risk 

Thanks for the explanation, really  helpful.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			And you don't believe neighbours would report it. Honestly!
		
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Idiots are already doing it/have been doing it for some time *and* posting it on social media. No ramifications for anyone I know to have broken the rules and posted about it. There must be a huge amount more that are doing it without posting anywhere. 

Not everyone is surrounded by curtain twitchers.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The computer systems used to ID people are rather stupid, so she sounds like a lowish risk person who has (just) clicked two boxes and been jumped up a bit. As a 47 year old female, she has the same base risk as a 42 year old man, and mild asthma and BP should have minimal effect on her risk score. Some people with mild asthma who take a regular steroid inhaler seem to have been dragged into a category of 'steroid dependent' even though they really aren't. Should have nothing to do with her job as far as I know, but if she has a valid invite, it would be churlish not to accept it.
		
Click to expand...

That's what we think happened to me, I suffer from mild bipolar but looks like it's ticked the ",severe mental illness" box

Won't turn down the chance


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Idiots are already doing it/have been doing it for some time *and* posting it on social media. No ramifications for anyone I know to have broken the rules and posted about it. There must be a huge amount more that are doing it without posting anywhere.

Not everyone is surrounded by curtain twitchers.
		
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Really! Curtain Twitchers is one way you can describe it, people carrying out civic responsibilities is another.  I would have no problem with reporting it.


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## SteveJay (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Really! Curtain Twitchers is one way you can describe it, people carrying out civic responsibilities is another.  I would have no problem with reporting it.
		
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What exactly are these "civic responsibilities"? Cant say I have signed up for any such thing !!!


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			What exactly are these "civic responsibilities"? Cant say I have signed up for any such thing !!!
		
Click to expand...

Its a nosey persons thing


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			What exactly are these "civic responsibilities"? Cant say I have signed up for any such thing !!!
		
Click to expand...

They're responsibilities you don't need to sign up to.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Its a nosey persons thing
		
Click to expand...

Oh,I see. That nosey thing about maintaining law and order.  OK.

Don't know about you but if I see someone seriously  breaking the Covid laws then I have no problem with reporting it. You however appear to have different values.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh,I see. That nosey thing about maintaining law and order.  OK.

Don't know about you but if I see someone seriously  breaking the Covid laws then I have no problem with reporting it.
		
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Problem is, what do you determine as "seriously breaking", have you hand on heart obeyed all guidelines to the letter? 

I have no problem people reporting. But you'd have to be in an idiot to get caught. There are infinite loopholes if laws are as they were. The vast majority of people acted in good faith previously, but if we are in lockdown/heavy regs after this time, many young will definitely push the boundries.

 I think I probably will join them, I've obeyed to the letter as yet. But after a year I think I've had enough.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Problem is, what do you determine as "seriously breaking", have you hand on heart obeyed all guidelines to the letter?

I have no problem people reporting. But you'd have to be in an idiot to get caught. There are infinite loopholes if laws are as they were. The vast majority of people acted in good faith previously, but if we are in lockdown/heavy regs after this time, many young will definitely push the boundries.

I think I probably will join them, I've obeyed to the letter as yet. But after a year I think I've had enough.
		
Click to expand...

To answer your question IMO it's things like getting together at a mates house for a booze up, large family get togethers, Raves, any big gatherings. I think you know that though.

We've all had enough after a year but can see the carnage and pressure on the health services.  I like any reasonable person will wait until we are told it's OK to get back to socialising.


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## larmen (Feb 12, 2021)

There probably is a difference between neighbours that are just talking only 1.50 apart from each other or the rule of 6 being bent because there is an extra baby in a buggy to 30 people having a piss up, ... .

I will ask my East German relatives how to behave properly.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh,I see. That nosey thing about maintaining law and order.  OK.

Don't know about you but if I see someone seriously  breaking the Covid laws then I have no problem with reporting it. You however appear to have different values.
		
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Depends on how much of the situation you know before you stick your size 10s in and annoy people you might need help from one day 

Wife's friend is a police officer, her mum got reported for having them round. Could have got her in trouble. First of all they are a support bubble due to child under 1

But her mum was so hurt as the details the police knew meant it was someone she knew reported her .. all the road know each other..just causes tension


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			There probably is a difference between neighbours that are just talking only 1.50 apart from each other or the rule of 6 being bent because there is an extra baby in a buggy to 30 people having a piss up, ... .

I will ask my East German relatives how to behave properly.
		
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We had 7 all time (was in support bubble) but 2 under 3 month olds in a buggy hardly smashing it


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Depends on how much of the situation you know before you stick your size 10s in and annoy people you might need help from one day

Wife's friend is a police officer, her mum got reported for having them round. Could have got her in trouble. First of all they are a support bubble due to child under 1

But her mum was so hurt as the details the police knew meant it was someone she knew reported her .. all the road know each other..just causes tension
		
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Try reading what I've posted. I've clarified what I consider a serious breach of the rules.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Try reading what I've posted. I've clarified what I consider a serious breach of the rules.
		
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If you are at home following the rules you won't notice much rule breaking. 

Nobody is going to be obviously breaking it ..


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2021)

So the R number is now the lowest it’s been since July


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360276133225373698
Imagine how better things will be in month

There is no doubt that restrictions will be eased from the beginning of March IMO 

They will not be able to continue with a strict lockdown


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			If you are at home following the rules you won't notice much rule breaking.

Nobody is going to be obviously breaking it ..
		
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Really!  It's not hard to notice a large party next door or over the road is it.  To organise a large gathering like a rave you need to advertise it and we have seen them being closed down.   
You appear to be trying to defend the undefendable.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			If you are at home following the rules you won't notice much rule breaking.

Nobody is going to be obviously breaking it ..
		
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised. I've seen countless people posting it on social media. They were met with an unfriend or follow, don't be that thick.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the R number is now the lowest it’s been since July


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360276133225373698
Imagine how better things will be in month
		
Click to expand...

@Ethan will know more and be able to explain it like I'm 5. Why are we still locked down if that's that's the case? Especially with the majority of those most at risk vaccinated? 

Borders aren't shutting, so there is no chance to neutralise it.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



@Ethan will know more and be able to explain it like I'm 5. Why are we still locked down if that's that's the case? Especially with the majority of those most at risk vaccinated?

Borders aren't shutting, so there is no chance to neutralise it.
		
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Surely the time to consider easing restrictions is when hospitals are not filled with Covid patients, death rates have fallen to normal levels, infection rates have fallen to rates that show the virus is under control and it's safe to see that opening things up isn't going to create another surge and lockdown.  Yes, vaccinations will help but surely it's far too early for us to relax measures.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the R number is now the lowest it’s been since July


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360276133225373698
Imagine how better things will be in month

There is no doubt that restrictions will be eased from the beginning of March IMO 

They will not be able to continue with a strict lockdown
		
Click to expand...

They will have a hard time justifying it to their party as a lot of back benchers hate lockdown (rightly or wrongly)


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## Ethan (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



@Ethan will know more and be able to explain it like I'm 5. *Why are we still locked down if that's that's the case? Especially with the majority of those most at risk vaccinated?*

Borders aren't shutting, so there is no chance to neutralise it.
		
Click to expand...

Because R is not really a very informative number. If there was 1 case in the country and he gave it to 4 others, the R would be 4, but for the time being unless you lived near that guy, you are safe enough. If there are 50,000 cases and the R is 1.05, we have a bigger problem.

The majority of those at the highest risk are vaccinated, but there is still plenty of risk to go around, and anyway the highest risk are not those who spread it the most, so it'll be a while yet. I think we need to get through all 9 top groups before we can really start to relax.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			To clarify, you are defending serious breaking of Covid rules. Unbelievable!

Regarding your childish insult, I expect nothing less from you.
		
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Let's bring it back on track. The hypocrisy slightly irks me, i'm sure every rational person isn't advocating raves and orgies. But I'm not sure one can complain about people "seriously" breaking the rules, but allow minor breaks. 

To my original point. people of all ages are breaking the rules, even if you define it as minor. We have most of the section of society that were taking up hospital beds vaccinated. 

Do we trust the vaccine or not? What is the way out of this? I've followed the rules completely and been alone since just before Christmas. I've lost a friend because of lockdown. The mental health crisis is going to be massive.


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## road2ruin (Feb 12, 2021)

With regards the lifting there will always be a balance between the health vs the social/economic impact. Read this today which was written by a virologist back in March who wanted to remain anonymous. Obviously it’s a generalisation and might have to be taken with a pinch of salt given it is anonymous however having listen to some of the stories coming from those pushing for extended restrictions it does sound true....

“My concern is that they will give medical scientists control. You have to understand that medical scientists are well meaning but they have no concept of real life. They don’t socialise, they are obsessed with germs, they think the world lives a grossly unhealthy lifestyle, they don’t think people should be in large groups ever. If a kid at their kid’s school has a cold, they keep their own kid off school for two weeks. So, if you let medical scientists have control, they will shut this country down for two years. It’s just in their nature. They won’t understand the problems that go with that thus they will carry on regardless.”


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Because R is not really a very informative number. If there was 1 case in the country and he gave it to 4 others, the R would be 4, but for the time being unless you lived near that guy, you are safe enough. If there are 50,000 cases and the R is 1.05, we have a bigger problem.

The majority of those at the highest risk are vaccinated, but there is still plenty of risk to go around, and anyway the highest risk are not those who spread it the most, so it'll be a while yet. I think we need to get through all 9 top groups before we can really start to relax.
		
Click to expand...

What ultimately is the goal? From a medical perspective. I bought into protecting the NHS. Hopefully going forward the groups taking reprasetatively the most hospital space are protected. 


The goal can't be to eliminate spread right? Borders are open, I can get back from Brazil, still. This will happen again.


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## Slime (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Problem is, what do you determine as "seriously breaking", have you hand on heart obeyed all guidelines to the letter?

I have no problem people reporting. But you'd have to be in an idiot to get caught. There are infinite loopholes if laws are as they were. The vast majority of people acted in good faith previously, but if we are in lockdown/heavy regs after this time, *many young will definitely push the boundries.

I think I probably will join them, I've obeyed to the letter as yet. But after a year I think I've had enough.*

Click to expand...

Then you will be part of the reason why we are having lockdowns.


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## Slime (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Let's bring it back on track. The hypocrisy slightly irks me, i'm sure every rational person isn't advocating raves and orgies. But I'm not sure one can complain about people "seriously" breaking the rules, but allow minor breaks.

To my original point. people of all ages are breaking the rules, even if you define it as minor. We have most of the section of society that were taking up hospital beds vaccinated.

Do we trust the vaccine or not? What is the way out of this? I've followed the rules completely and been alone since just before Christmas. *I've lost a friend because of lockdown.* The mental health crisis is going to be massive.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear that you've lost a friend, truly I am, but lockdowns are done to prevent thousands of others losing their friends.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

Slime said:



			Then you will be part of the reason why we are having lockdowns.
		
Click to expand...


We've had a year of lockdowns and I've followed the guidelines meticulously. Might as well not be alone for another year and try and enjoy myself.


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## Slime (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We've had a year of lockdowns and I've followed the guidelines meticulously. Might as well not be alone for another year and try and enjoy myself.
		
Click to expand...

Then crack on along with all the other selfish fools.
I hope you don't catch it ................................ because you'll probably spread it and we may go in to another lockdown.
Well, those that adhere to them may.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We've had a year of lockdowns and I've followed the guidelines meticulously. Might as well not be alone for another year and try and enjoy myself.
		
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You won’t be alone for long, just over one more week and we’ll have some idea of the route out, it’s not easy for anyone, but we/you can do it, I’m convinced we’ll start to see the rules easing and a return to normality from March, it won’t be quick, it’ll be slow, but it’ll be worth it.

Keep going mate.


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## larmen (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So the R number is now the lowest it’s been since July


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360276133225373698
Imagine how better things will be in month

There is no doubt that restrictions will be eased from the beginning of March IMO

They will not be able to continue with a strict lockdown
		
Click to expand...

I am not getting the right hand graph. In my experience the X-axis can only be travelled in one direction but this looks like it is coming back on itself? I understand in context that this is a good thing, but what does the graph tell us exactly?


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			I am not getting the right hand graph. In my experience the X-axis can only be travelled in one direction but this looks like it is coming back on itself? I understand in context that this is a good thing, but what does the graph tell us exactly?
		
Click to expand...

I thought it was just me


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			I am not getting the right hand graph. In my experience the X-axis can only be travelled in one direction but this looks like it is coming back on itself? I understand in context that this is a good thing, but what does the graph tell us exactly?
		
Click to expand...

It’s not a timeline graph 

It’s showing the level of new admissions and the level of numbers in a bed 

So at the peak it was around 4,000 a day and over 30,000 in a bed


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## SteveJay (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the time to consider easing restrictions is when hospitals are not filled with Covid patients, death rates have fallen to normal levels, infection rates have fallen to rates that show the virus is under control and it's safe to see that opening things up isn't going to create another surge and lockdown.  Yes, vaccinations will help but surely it's far too early for us to relax measures.
		
Click to expand...

Jeez, hope you are happy with a lockdown until Autumn then. No way are they not going to relax things come March. The question is only how much of a relaxation there is. I agree with others that unrest is likely if nothing is lifted, apart from schools reopening. People have had enough and need some positive news to show how we are going to move out of this.


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## larmen (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not a timeline graph

It’s showing the level of new admissions and the level of numbers in a bed

So at the peak it was around 4,000 a day and over 30,000 in a bed
		
Click to expand...

A scatter plot? The way the data looks it looks very 'timeliny'  ;-)


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 12, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not a timeline graph

It’s showing the level of new admissions and the level of numbers in a bed

So at the peak it was around 4,000 a day and over 30,000 in a bed
		
Click to expand...

That's one crowded bed!🤔


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## D-S (Feb 12, 2021)

Out of interest when golf reopened last year on 13/5 patients in hospital were just over 11k (they then continued  to drop for the next 5 months), this time round they peaked at 39k 18/1 and since then have dropped to 24k on 10/2. We won’t be too far away at current rates from 11k again on 22/2 Feb when the next announcement is scheduled to be made. So if golf isn’t opened in early March I would be extremely surprised.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the time to consider easing restrictions is when hospitals are not filled with Covid patients, death rates have fallen to normal levels, infection rates have fallen to rates that show the virus is under control and it's safe to see that opening things up isn't going to create another surge and lockdown.  Yes, vaccinations will help but surely it's far too early for us to relax measures.
		
Click to expand...

The country and millions can’t wait until then as that above will talk all year and into autumn, by that time the affect on the population will be imo even harsher than the virus 

They have to relax restrictions in March - people have done what they asked to help protect the NHS and get groups 1-4 vaccinated- that was the aim they stated, if they go beyond 2 months lockdown then the country will react


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## MegaSteve (Feb 12, 2021)

For me, anyway, a bit of a concern as to what is occurring in Melbourne... Believe they've managed the virus very well in Oz... So was quite surprised when they appeared to have relaxed the rules to allow spectators at the AO... Seems to have bitten them on the bum somewhat...


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## D-S (Feb 12, 2021)

I am accepting of the lockdown here and the restrictions as you can see the effects on the NHS as well as the horrific number of deaths and illnesses - all this correctly scares me to want to follow the rules. However if I was in a city like Perth, where there was one infection (no deaths, no one in hospital just one positive test) and they immediately locked down everyone for 5 days with no warning, the sheer hassle of having to have all your plans turned upside down would be galling to say the least.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 12, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Jeez, hope you are happy with a lockdown until Autumn then. No way are they not going to relax things come March. The question is only how much of a relaxation there is. I agree with others that unrest is likely if nothing is lifted, apart from schools reopening. People have had enough and need some positive news to show how we are going to move out of this.
		
Click to expand...

We are all fed up of this...I can be as fed up of this as anyone, but I know that if I stop swimming when I am out of my depth I will drown - and so I keep swimming until my feet can touch the bottom.  Only then can I safely stop swimming.   But I agree on one thing - I need someone to direct me to where I might find shallow water or tell me roughly how long it'll take for the tide to go out.  But I know I must just keep going for as long as it takes.  When I get very fed up I just tell myself to do life one day at a time - and I refuse to let myself think 'I've had enough' as that would just be me feeling sorry for myself.


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## ForeRight (Feb 12, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			For me, anyway, a bit of a concern as to what is occurring in Melbourne... Believe they've managed the virus very well in Oz... So was quite surprised when they appeared to have relaxed the rules to allow spectators at the AO... Seems to have bitten them on the bum somewhat...
		
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It has bitten them on the bum, but you've got to respect the immediate action they've taken. No procrastinating. No spectators, lockdown with immediate effect.  The only other thing they might have done was cancel the tournament.


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## Ethan (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			What ultimately is the goal? From a medical perspective. I bought into protecting the NHS. Hopefully going forward the groups taking reprasetatively the most hospital space are protected.


The goal can't be to eliminate spread right? Borders are open, I can get back from Brazil, still. This will happen again.
		
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What does protecting the NHS mean? You can protect it pretty well by vaccinating people likely to transmit Covid. Even though younger people might not die, they can gum up the NHS with admissions. The people at highest risk of personal harm are not necessarily those who place the greatest pressures on the NHS. 

The basic principles of public health pandemic response are 1. Keep it out 2. Keep it from spreading. If 1 is done well, as Oz and NZ are doing, then 2 becomes less of a problem. In my opinion, the borders should have been tightened considerably a year ago, and I suspect we would be in a better place now. 

Brazil is a red list country. You can't get back legally without quarantine.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			For me, anyway, a bit of a concern as to what is occurring in Melbourne... Believe they've managed the virus very well in Oz... So was quite surprised when they appeared to have relaxed the rules to allow spectators at the AO... Seems to have bitten them on the bum somewhat...
		
Click to expand...

It’s all about money, I’m amazed how much “elite “ sport goes on and what they are allowed to get up to. It’s no wonder that some in the country act like they do.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are all fed up of this...I can be as fed up of this as anyone, but I know that if I stop swimming when I am out of my depth I will drown - and so I keep swimming until my feet can touch the bottom.  Only then can I safely stop swimming.   But I agree on one thing - I need someone to direct me to where I might find shallow water or tell me roughly how long it'll take for the tide to go out.  But I know I must just keep going for as long as it takes.  When I get very fed up I just tell myself to do life one day at a time - and I refuse to let myself think 'I've had enough' as that would just be me feeling sorry for myself.
		
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https://www.tidetimes.org.uk/


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## GB72 (Feb 12, 2021)

Like I thought, I am now far more motivated. I am seeing big improvements, that little bit that I am doing is working and so I feel less down about lockdown and feel committed to keep going. A month ago I would have broken restrictions in a heartbeat as I just did not see it working and the bad news was getting to me. Now I see some light I am happy to dig in for a bit longer to keep the better news coming.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2021)

SteveJay said:



			Jeez, hope you are happy with a lockdown until Autumn then. No way are they not going to relax things come March. The question is only how much of a relaxation there is. I agree with others that unrest is likely if nothing is lifted, apart from schools reopening. People have had enough and need some positive news to show how we are going to move out of this.
		
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I'm not happy with any lockdowns, I'd rather be up the pub or playing golf.   My point is that it's completely stupid to ease things too quickly, the time to get back to a more normal life is to get the situation under control. We've tried tiers and lockdown light but it hasn't worked. The vaccinations will help but the current levels of one jab for the over 70s isn't enough, we need more time to get deaths and infections under control otherwise we will be back where we are now.

Regarding the civil disobedience, I don't buy into that one, just look at how Spain and many other countries have controlled it. We've had it easy here.


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## DanFST (Feb 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



*The people at highest risk of personal harm are not necessarily those who place the greatest pressures on the NHS.*

The basic principles of public health pandemic response are 1. Keep it out 2. Keep it from spreading. If 1 is done well, as Oz and NZ are doing, then 2 becomes less of a problem. In my opinion, the borders should have been tightened considerably a year ago, and I suspect we would be in a better place now.

Brazil is a red list country. You can't get back legally without quarantine.
		
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*Not Necessarily, but in this instance hospitals are overwhelming full of those at highest personal risk right? Especially in proportional representation?*

Totally agree with the above, however the enforcement isn't there. So what's the point? It borders on political so can't entertain that much more. But I know for a fact I could get back from any red list country within 48 hours, without quarantine via another country. This maybe hear say, but aren't we using PCR test exactly how they were designed not to be used?

(EDIT: don't PCR's detect less that 50% of positive cases in Asymptomatic carriers. If 1-3 is Asymptomatic, they miss just over 16% of positive cases)


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 12, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We've had a year of lockdowns and I've followed the guidelines meticulously. Might as well not be alone for another year and try and enjoy myself.
		
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Precisely this, YOU have one life. Live it


SteveJay said:



			Jeez, hope you are happy with a lockdown until Autumn then. No way are they not going to relax things come March. The question is only how much of a relaxation there is. I agree with others that unrest is likely if nothing is lifted, apart from schools reopening. People have had enough and need some positive news to show how we are going to move out of this.
		
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Autumn? I like your optimism! 

Unrest is unlikely we’ve already rolled over, tolerated it for a year and submitted and set precedent for more lockdowns.  And they’ve made protesting against it illegal. 
 This won’t be the last lockdown. Any roadmap out will likely change as it has done already. They will let you go to the pub or visit the hills in summer then straight back in your cell.


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## Old Skier (Feb 12, 2021)

Crickey, not that long ago we had a generation who were prepared to do as they were told for over 4 years. We now have some of the present generation that haven’t got the discipline to last for a year.

Are we becoming a society of “Jacks”.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 12, 2021)

Theres no reason we can't be pretty much restriction free by the summer IF people are sensible (ok, thats probably asking a bit much).
Last year the virus almost died out during the summer months, so whilst we know hot weather doesn't kill it off its obvious it doesnt transmit as well as in the colder weather. So assuming we don't get a mutation that is pre coated in factor 50 there's no reason to think the same won't happen this year, plus we have a vaccine this year, millions more with 'natural' immumity from having had it and recovered,  and a wealth more knowledge of how to treat it. 
I can see a return to the tier system from March, but nationally rather than regional, then with monthly updates to see if its safe to lower to the next tier.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 12, 2021)

Just seen this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56048444

could it be another game changer, not sure that Ave read anything like this re being tested but be interested to hear Ethans thoughts. Unless it’s already been discussed previously


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just seen this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56048444

could it be another game changer, not sure that Ave read anything like this re being tested but be interested to hear Ethans thoughts. Unless it’s already been discussed previously
		
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The cynic in me would suggest that approach will help out no end with them speeding up their vaccination programme and getting the figures to look better in light of not having the supplies of vaccine that they ordered and wanted. But, I thought the same about the 12 week gap between jabs in the UK strategy, and it turns out that our approach is now being supported by the WHO so who knows.


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## D-S (Feb 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Theres no reason we can't be pretty much restriction free by the summer IF people are sensible (ok, thats probably asking a bit much).
Last year the virus almost died out during the summer months, so whilst we know hot weather doesn't kill it off its obvious it doesnt transmit as well as in the colder weather. So assuming we don't get a mutation that is pre coated in factor 50 there's no reason to think the same won't happen this year, plus we have a vaccine this year, millions more with 'natural' immumity from having had it and recovered,  and a wealth more knowledge of how to treat it.
I can see a return to the tier system from March, but nationally rather than regional, then with monthly updates to see if its safe to lower to the next tier.
		
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Couldn’t agree more with this. We have over 25% of the adult population (all the most vulnerable ones) with one dose already by now. This will be over 30% by the end of Feb - I realise they will need a second jab but the first jab already confers a significant immunity. The pipe line of vaccination supply is due to significantly ramp up from April onwards to allow for concurrent second jabs and first ones. We have more and more vaccination sites coming on stream to cope. We should be able to get jabs (first in most and second in all the 50+] into most of the adult population by end June. So why all the doom and gloom? This lockdown is fully 2 ½ months earlier than last year when, if you can remember, we had some sort of normality (bars & hotels open, rule of 6, holidays in the UK etc.) all the while with infections still coming down despite 0 vaccinations by early summer. It seems that the perpetual doom mongering of the cynical press, for whom the only news is bad news, has permeated a lot of people’s consciousness.


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## larmen (Feb 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just seen this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56048444

could it be another game changer, not sure that Ave read anything like this re being tested but be interested to hear Ethans thoughts. Unless it’s already been discussed previously
		
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They could do an antibody test just before giving the vax, and after 3 (or 12) weeks you either get an invite for vax 2 or the notice that you had it already and are protected. This would however make the vaccination process a lot less efficient, but it might cut down on needed vaccines a couple of weeks (or 12) down the line. Then just to be sure vax them anyway once the strain has been lifted from the system.

Just guessing around here ;-)


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## Tashyboy (Feb 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			They could do an antibody test just before giving the vax, and after 3 (or 12) weeks you either get an invite for vax 2 or the notice that you had it already and are protected. This would however make the vaccination process a lot less efficient, but it might cut down on needed vaccines a couple of weeks (or 12) down the line. Then just to be sure vax them anyway once the strain has been lifted from the system.

Just guessing around here ;-)
		
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Once I had got over Covid, I was asked if I would like to donate antibody rich Plasma. I jumped at the chance. Anyway they sent out a test kit which did show I had anti bodies. So I kinda get the thought process behind the 1 vaccine jab process. But having not read about just having one jab anywhere, I wondered if Any scientific studies had been done.


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## fundy (Feb 12, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			For me, anyway, a bit of a concern as to what is occurring in Melbourne... Believe they've managed the virus very well in Oz... *So was quite surprised when they appeared to have relaxed the rules to allow spectators at the AO*... Seems to have bitten them on the bum somewhat...
		
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They had spectators at the test on boxing day and have had at most of the big bash games, Aussie Open tennis was just an extension of what had been happening


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 12, 2021)

Interesting read, find out what the numbers are where you live.


Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey, UK - Office for National Statistics


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 12, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			For me, anyway, a bit of a concern as to what is occurring in Melbourne... Believe they've managed the virus very well in Oz... So was quite surprised when they appeared to have relaxed the rules to allow spectators at the AO... Seems to have bitten them on the bum somewhat...
		
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I thought that the cases in Melbourne were linked to a quarantine hotel. One of the security guards had got it somehow and that was how it had been spread.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-hotels-and-get-fresh-air-and-cctv-in-experts


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## Old Skier (Feb 13, 2021)

Over 65’s can now book jabs on web site https://www.nhs.uk/book-a-coronavirus-vaccination/do-you-have-an-nhs-number


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2021)

larmen said:



			They could do an antibody test just before giving the vax, and after 3 (or 12) weeks you either get an invite for vax 2 or the notice that you had it already and are protected. This would however make the vaccination process a lot less efficient, but it might cut down on needed vaccines a couple of weeks (or 12) down the line. Then just to be sure vax them anyway once the strain has been lifted from the system.

Just guessing around here ;-)
		
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There is a certain logic there, in that the wild viral infection acts as a primary immunisation and then a vaccination boosts that up to the desired level. If you demonstrate an antibody response in the person that is broadly in line with what you expect from vaccination, then they shouldn't really be very different. One issue may be the specificity of the immunity, which may be narrow from wild infection, but the booster should take care of that, although no studies are available to show that an infection-vaccination combo is equivalent to 2 vaccinations.


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## larmen (Feb 13, 2021)

AZ/Oxford being trialled on minors as young as 6. Could be the next game changer going forward.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Over 65’s can now book jabs on web site https://www.nhs.uk/book-a-coronavirus-vaccination/do-you-have-an-nhs-number

Click to expand...

Thanks have forwarded to my aunt


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360621511762206734


The Numbers keep showing how well we are doing 

By the time March comes around the numbers potentially will be at August Levels plus the vaccine added 

Lots of talk from ipaper that the road map includes 

Removing the tiers but going to three stages 

Opening up schools , outdoor activities and the rule of six 

Then two weeks later - 

Opening up non essential businesses , hairdressers etc , gyms and indoor activities 

Then just before Easter 

Pubs and Restaurants plus other hospitality events with spacing and restrictions 

All depending on the impact of the previous stage on the numbers 

If numbers keep improving as they are and if they do hit those august levels then I can’t see how they keep restrictions strict


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360621511762206734
View attachment 35005

The Numbers keep showing how well we are doing

By the time March comes around the numbers potentially will be at August Levels plus the vaccine added

Lots of talk from ipaper that the road map includes

Removing the tiers but going to three stages

Opening up schools , outdoor activities and the rule of six

Then two weeks later -

Opening up non essential businesses , hairdressers etc , gyms and indoor activities

Then just before Easter

Pubs and Restaurants plus other hospitality events with spacing and restrictions

All depending on the impact of the previous stage on the numbers

If numbers keep improving as they are and if they do hit those august levels then I can’t see how they keep restrictions strict
		
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Doing well only means doing better than doing terrible. We have seen this story before, easing off, bounce back of cases. The cases might not affect the older people as much but there are still plenty of victims available. The old policy of lock down too slow, open up too quick has been a bad idea. Still well above April cases. 

I think the key timeline point is getting all 9 groups done. The 50s and 60s still contribute quite a bit of hospital activity and if the SA or Bristol strains are gaining, the pathogenicity will be higher.


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## arnieboy (Feb 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Thanks have forwarded to my aunt
		
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Had mine earlier in the week (67) and my wife (62) is booked in for tomorrow.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Doing well only means doing better than doing terrible. We have seen this story before, easing off, bounce back of cases. The cases might not affect the older people as much but there are still plenty of victims available. The old policy of lock down too slow, open up too quick has been a bad idea. Still well above April cases.

I think the key timeline point is getting all 9 groups done. The 50s and 60s still contribute quite a bit of hospital activity and if the SA or Bristol strains are gaining, the pathogenicity will be higher.
		
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Only above April cases because the level of testing in April was significantly lower -there were clearly a significant amount of people with Covid but wouldn’t have had a test.

When we came out of lockdown in May there were no issues , no spike and things moved to a new normal in The summer 

Why can’t we do the same now with the added boost of the vaccine ?

And we can’t as a country wait for all 9 groups to have the vaccine - that would destroy a lot more lives than the virus currently is


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## SatchFan (Feb 13, 2021)

Rather than wasting time on her typing reams on what may or may not happen I think I'll just wait for Boris on the 22nd.


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only above April cases because the level of testing in April was significantly lower -there were clearly a significant amount of people with Covid but wouldn’t have had a test.

When we came out of lockdown in May there were no issues , no spike and things moved to a new normal in The summer

Why can’t we do the same now with the added boost of the vaccine ?

And we can’t as a country wait for all 9 groups to have the vaccine - that would destroy a lot more lives than the virus currently is
		
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It isn't really true to say that there were no issues in May. There was endemic virus in the community and it bubbled around until it got its opening, with some people going on holiday, Eat Out and schools and unis returning. It was never properly suppressed. The new normal was a stalemate. Lots more lives will be ruined, or ended, if we make the same mistake again. 

On tests, most of the tests now done are Lateral Flow, not done 'for cause'. The number of people getting PCR tests because of symptoms is unknown and the DH will not say, if they even know. 

According to the ONS, Covid deaths now are similar to the April peak, and since treatments are more effective now and the case fatality rate is lower, one must presume that reflects more cases rather than more testing.


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## D-S (Feb 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Doing well only means doing better than doing terrible. We have seen this story before, easing off, bounce back of cases. The cases might not affect the older people as much but there are still plenty of victims available. The old policy of lock down too slow, open up too quick has been a bad idea. Still well above April cases.

I think the key timeline point is getting all 9 groups done. The 50s and 60s still contribute quite a bit of hospital activity and if the SA or Bristol strains are gaining, the pathogenicity will be higher.
		
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All over 50s and vulnerable groups represent about 30 million in UK, 14.5 million have had their first jab, half a million have had both already by mid Feb. At current rates we should have nearly all over 50s with one jab nearly by early Easter, 6 weeks away (when Liverpoolphil's timeline suggests Pubs and restaurants will open with restrictions) - one jab already confers a decent immunity and a significant proportion of the most vulnerable will have had their second jab. This timeline seems to be about sensible as the most at risk groups will have some protection and their will be still social distancing, mask use and reduced capacities etc. etc. We will also be getting the increased volumes of vaccines coming through by then as well.
Bodes well for a better late Spring and summer than some doom mongers have been muttering about.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It isn't really true to say that there were no issues in May. There was endemic virus in the community and it bubbled around until it got its opening, with some people going on holiday, Eat Out and schools and unis returning. It was never properly suppressed. The new normal was a stalemate. Lots more lives will be ruined, or ended, if we make the same mistake again.

On tests, most of the tests now done are Lateral Flow, not done 'for cause'. The number of people getting PCR tests because of symptoms is unknown and the DH will not say, if they even know.

According to the ONS, Covid deaths now are similar to the April peak, and since treatments are more effective now and the case fatality rate is lower, one must presume that reflects more cases rather than more testing.
		
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There has to come a time where the financial and mental well being of the nation will need to be considered

The scientist view will always be looking at the cautious to keep restrictions as long as possible to try and suppress the virus but the majority right now need to get back out and restart the country , our children need to get back into schools , businesses need to get up and working again , families need to meet each other 

By the 8th March we would have been 8 weeks in lockdown , we all did it to allow the NHS to be protected , to allow the vaccine to get to the main vunerable groups - we have done what the government have asked of us. Any changing of that and the reaction won’t be good 

In 3 weeks time unless something drastic happens we are going to look likely to be in a position to re open the country


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 13, 2021)

Have not used notes and coin this year; in fact cannot remember the last time other than to slip a coin into a Supermarket trolley.

what do you use coins/ notes for now?


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## Imurg (Feb 13, 2021)

I haven't used cash since the start of the November lockdown  - and I used to use nothing but cash.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 13, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Have not used notes and coin this year; in fact cannot remember the last time other than to slip a coin into a Supermarket trolley.

what do you use coins/ notes for now?
		
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I use cash wherever possible as need change for the coffee machine at work as our Costa’s shut at 1500.


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			All over 50s and vulnerable groups represent about 30 million in UK, 14.5 million have had their first jab, half a million have had both already by mid Feb. At current rates we should have nearly all over 50s with one jab nearly by early Easter, 6 weeks away (when Liverpoolphil's timeline suggests Pubs and restaurants will open with restrictions) - one jab already confers a decent immunity and a significant proportion of the most vulnerable will have had their second jab. This timeline seems to be about sensible as the most at risk groups will have some protection and their will be still social distancing, mask use and reduced capacities etc. etc. We will also be getting the increased volumes of vaccines coming through by then as well.
Bodes well for a better late Spring and summer than some doom mongers have been muttering about.
		
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That isn't the timeline proposed, though. I agree, and stated above, that the key point in the timeline for me was when the top 9 groups were done. You need to allow 3 weeks for the effect to kick in too. I doubt we will have reached that point by Easter, but will be delighted if we do. Pressures on supply will be an issue and if the SA variant, or other variants currently bubbling under, gains a strong foothold, the effects will be diluted. My basic policy would be: DON'T FUDGE THIS UP NOW!


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There has to come a time where the financial and mental well being of the nation will need to be considered

The scientist view will always be looking at the cautious to keep restrictions as long as possible to try and suppress the virus but the majority right now need to get back out and restart the country , our children need to get back into schools , businesses need to get up and working again , families need to meet each other

By the 8th March we would have been 8 weeks in lockdown , we all did it to allow the NHS to be protected , to allow the vaccine to get to the main vunerable groups - we have done what the government have asked of us. Any changing of that and the reaction won’t be good

In 3 weeks time unless something drastic happens we are going to look likely to be in a position to re open the country
		
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If that happens, don't complain if further restrictions are needed later.


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## larmen (Feb 13, 2021)

I use cash only at the hairdresser. It used to be £12, now it is £10.
I have a supermarket pound in the car. That’s it.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Have not used notes and coin this year; in fact cannot remember the last time other than to slip a coin into a Supermarket trolley.

what do you use coins/ notes for now?
		
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The Chinese takeaways near me only take cash, cough HMRC, cough. That is the only cash I spend. I don't actually carry any, I have to specifically go to a cash machine on takeaway night. 

Other than that I keep a few coins in the car for car parking although even that has not been a feature for a good while. I'll be happy when we go entirely cashless.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If that happens, don't complain if further restrictions are needed later.
		
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There will be still a level of restrictions until the end of year - no one has suggested that everything just re opens with nothing in place 

There will be masks , restrictions on numbers gathering inside , travel restrictions etc 

We aren’t going to go back to normal 

But many areas activities will restart safely 

It’s needs to happen - I know the scientists will want us locked down until later in the year but it’s just not practical


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## Imurg (Feb 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The Chinese takeaways near me only take cash, cough HMRC, cough. That is the only cash I spend. I don't actually carry any, I have to specifically go to a cash machine on takeaway night.

Other than that I keep a few coins in the car for car parking although even that has not been a feature for a good while. I'll be happy when we go entirely cashless.
		
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My industry has always been cash rich
In the past it wasn't unusual for me to have over £1k in my pocket if 3 or 4 of the kids had prepaid for a batch of lessons.
Managed to switch most of them over to Bank transfers  but I still have a few that only want to pay with notes.
It builds up!
Sometime soon I'm going to wander into the bank to pay the credit card bill with a bunch of 20s....


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			My industry has always been cash rich
In the past it wasn't unusual for me to have over £1k in my pocket if 3 or 4 of the kids had prepaid for a batch of lessons.
Managed to switch most of them over to Bank transfers  but I still have a few that only want to pay with notes.
It builds up!
Sometime soon I'm going to wander into the bank to pay the credit card bill with a bunch of 20s....
		
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You will probably get an invitation for a chat 😁. Money laundering must be tougher in a pandemic. 

On a serious note that is quite a security risk. Have instructors been targeted in the past?


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## larmen (Feb 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Sometime soon I'm going to wander into the bank to pay the credit card bill with a bunch of 20s....
		
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if you disinfect them due to covid, is that money laundering?


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There will be still a level of restrictions until the end of year - no one has suggested that everything just re opens with nothing in place

There will be masks , restrictions on numbers gathering inside , travel restrictions etc

We aren’t going to go back to normal

But many areas activities will restart safely

It’s needs to happen - I know the scientists will want us locked down until later in the year but it’s just not practical
		
Click to expand...

If the scientists had been listened to properly before, they wouldn't have to keep on saying this stuff. As to what is practical, you must know more than them about what twists there might be in the plot in the near future.


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## Imurg (Feb 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You will probably get an invitation for a chat 😁. Money laundering must be tougher in a pandemic.

On a serious note that is quite a security risk. Have instructors been targeted in the past?
		
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Not to my knowledge as we're always in the car so have a decent getaway plan.
It's also a risky robbery attempt as sometimes  I can go a week or more without getting any cash at all...
Can't remember what it's like to get properly paid...hasn't happened since the end of October...


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Not to my knowledge as we're always in the car *so have a decent getaway plan*.
It's also a risky robbery attempt as sometimes  I can go a week or more without getting any cash at all...
Can't remember what it's like to get properly paid...hasn't happened since the end of October...

Click to expand...

If not a decent getaway driver...


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## Imurg (Feb 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			If not a decent getaway driver... 

Click to expand...

You'd be surprised...slowing some of these kids down is the hardest part..


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			All over 50s and vulnerable groups represent about 30 million in UK, 14.5 million have had their first jab, half a million have had both already by mid Feb. At current rates we should have nearly all over 50s with one jab nearly by early Easter, 6 weeks away (when Liverpoolphil's timeline suggests Pubs and restaurants will open with restrictions) - one jab already confers a decent immunity and a significant proportion of the most vulnerable will have had their second jab. This timeline seems to be about sensible as the most at risk groups will have some protection and their will be still social distancing, mask use and reduced capacities etc. etc. We will also be getting the increased volumes of vaccines coming through by then as well.
*Bodes well for a better late Spring and summer than some doom mongers have been muttering about*.
		
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Is a Doom Monger someone who suggests it will only be safe to remove restrictions when infections and death rates fall to low sustainable levels?


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There will be still a level of restrictions until the end of year - no one has suggested that everything just re opens with nothing in place

There will be masks , restrictions on numbers gathering inside , travel restrictions etc

We aren’t going to go back to normal

But many areas activities will restart safely

It’s needs to happen - I know the scientists will want us locked down until later in the year but it’s just not practical
		
Click to expand...

I don’t agree with restrictions after the vulnerable have been vaccinated one bleeding iota - but that sounds the best compromise for everyone.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If the scientists had been listened to properly before, they wouldn't have to keep on saying this stuff. As to what is practical, you must know more than them about what twists there might be in the plot in the near future.
		
Click to expand...

Which scientists? There have been scientists that say we should be in lock down until the end of the year - what does that say about their understanding of the world beyond science and numbers ?- you have scientists that say we should leave lockdown now 

There is no doubt that it’s a hard choice - the balance between the science , the mental health , the economy must be hard 

Millions have put their lives on hold , children’s future education on hold , businesses have gone Forever , jobs lost and it was at the request to protect our vunerable 

We have done that and it’s gettin better so it will soon be time to allow life to move on - it needs to move on for the sake of millions


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## D-S (Feb 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is a Doom Monger someone who suggests it will only be safe to remove restrictions when infections and death rates fall to low sustainable levels?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, a doom mongerer is someone who says there will be probably be no UK holidays this summer as if they know the infections and death rates will somehow change from this year’s and last year’s trend. Also they are the folks that say that visiting Europe might only be a possibility from summer 2020. They are also those who say that proper lockdown (not merely restrictions such as social distancing, mask wearing etc.) will need to last until the Autumn. They are also those who exactly do not look at this years trends of infections and death rates and hospitalisations compared with last year. Most importantly they are those who seem to forget that we locked down two and a half months earlier this year than last and also seem to think that vaccinating 6% of the adult population per week will not make one iota of difference.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			Nope, a doom mongerer is someone who says there will be probably be no UK holidays this summer as if they know the infections and death rates will somehow change from this year’s and last year’s trend. Also they are the folks that say that visiting Europe might only be a possibility from summer 2020. They are also those who say that proper lockdown (not merely restrictions such as social distancing, mask wearing etc.) will need to last until the Autumn. They are also those who exactly do not look at this years trends of infections and death rates and hospitalisations compared with last year. Most importantly they are those who seem to forget that we locked down two and a half months earlier this year than last and also seem to think that vaccinating 6% of the adult population per week will not make one iota of difference.
		
Click to expand...

On a side note, it would be interesting to see if there’s a correlation between being a hardcore lockdown advocate with having no mortgage left to pay and having the pension sorted.


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Which scientists? There have been scientists that say we should be in lock down until the end of the year - what does that say about their understanding of the world beyond science and numbers ?- you have scientists that say we should leave lockdown now

There is no doubt that it’s a hard choice - the balance between the science , the mental health , the economy must be hard

Millions have put their lives on hold , children’s future education on hold , businesses have gone Forever , jobs lost and it was at the request to protect our vunerable

We have done that and it’s gettin better so it will soon be time to allow life to move on - it needs to move on for the sake of millions
		
Click to expand...

There are a range of views, and a range of relevant expertise informing those views, but the general view last year was that a fairly strong early intervention would reduce problems later. We didn't get that strong intervention, though. 

Now, there is a lot of concern about the SA variant and other variants which could really change the nature of this problem, and that could include those already vaccinated. Therefore there is concern about repeating previous mistakes and re-opening too son. I have not heard a view that we should remain as is until the end of the year, but that there will be gradually easing restrictions, and if all goes well, a graduation return to the new normal. But if we screw this up, then we will have another summer and winter of chaos, and I don't think you want that. The virus doesn't give a toss about the economy, it does its thing as far as it is allowed to. 

Listing a series of bad things doesn't change the basic problem that the sooner we get proper control on this, the sooner we get out of all this stuff. If we don't, the list of businesses gone and people gone will just get longer. 

There is no balance to be struck between the science and the economy. The two go hand in hand. If you don't get the public health problems sorted, the economy won't recover. Those trading one off against the other are just making both worse.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You'd be surprised...slowing some of these kids down is the hardest part..

Click to expand...

You should know better than most that being fast and being decent aren't necessarily the same thing.


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## Imurg (Feb 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			You should know better than most that being fast and being decent aren't necessarily the same thing. 

Click to expand...

True
But if they're driving me away from a guy in a black and white hooped shirt, black mask and gloves I want them to be fast!


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			True
But if they're driving me away from a guy in a black and white hooped shirt, black mask and gloves I want them to be fast!
		
Click to expand...

Just mind the roundabouts.


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## Slime (Feb 13, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Have not used notes and coin this year; in fact cannot remember the last time other than to slip a coin into a Supermarket trolley.

*what do you use coins/ notes for now?*

Click to expand...

Just about everything I buy offline.


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## DanFST (Feb 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I have not heard a view that we should remain as is until the end of the year, but that there will be gradually easing restrictions, and if all goes well, a graduation return to the new normal..
		
Click to expand...

Dr Susan Hopkins (on SAGE) wants restrictions in place until "*at least *everyone in the UK has been vaccinated". The at least scares me. 

KCL did a study and non communicable diseases are much less survivable than pre pandemic. Just due to diagnosis delays Cancer survivability is down almost 9%. Suicides are most likely up, and then there's the mental health damage that for some will be irreparable.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			On a side note, it would be interesting to see if there’s a correlation between being a hardcore lockdown advocate with having no mortgage left to pay and having the pension sorted.
		
Click to expand...

The virus isn't interested in mortgages or pensions, it attacks us all.   If we go back to normal before we get a control of this virus we will be back playing seesaw with lockdowns for years.  Most older people have children and grandchildren who they want the best outcomes for, this divisive talk helps no one, it's a lot more serious than that.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Dr Susan Hopkins (on SAGE) wants restrictions in place until "*at least *everyone in the UK has been vaccinated". The at least scares me.

KCL did a study and non communicable diseases are much less survivable than pre pandemic. Just due to diagnosis delays Cancer survivability is down almost 9%. Suicides are most likely up, and then there's the mental health damage that for some will be irreparable.
		
Click to expand...

Mental health issues are a problem, I know what it does to people first hand, I have a member of my own family that has it and I'm fully aware of how it affects people.  What do you suggest we do about it, do we let the new  variants rip through us so that we see a thousand or more people dying a day. This current Covid pandemic isn't something we can just ignore and think life will get back to normal, it's a world wide problem that needs world wide solutions. If you think mental health issues are the biggest issue we have to deal with then let's take away the controls and see how bad things can get.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 14, 2021)

Something that's starting to p me off is people (mainly seem to be in the hospitality industry) claiming their "covid safe environment"

Covid is invisible it's impossible to be fully "covid safe"


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## road2ruin (Feb 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Dr Susan Hopkins (on SAGE) wants restrictions in place until "*at least *everyone in the UK has been vaccinated". The at least scares me
		
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on what those restrictions are however there is likely to be a point where the Government have to stop listening to the science in it’s entirety for social and economic reasons. I put a post up earlier about the scientists, from their point of view they will want us locked down for years as they want to be 100% safe. 

Given the were unlikely to ever see zero Covid a decision will be made on how many deaths per year is acceptable and we will have to live alongside it like we do flu etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2021)

To demand that *all* COVID restrictions are lifted by the end of April seems to me to rather miss the point about a highly infectious virus operating within a population not fully vaccinated against it’s worst outcomes - particularly as we do not understand all of the non-fatal outcomes and do not know if further significant mutation will present itself in the UK and what level of infection or transmission will be present at that point in time.

I too desperately wish for all restrictions to be gone but i will not demand that (of the government) - and that sort of demand coming from anyone worries me.  But if that is what happens then I suppose we see where we are in six months time. But if it comes to pass I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed and that doesn’t seem to be a particularly science-based approach to something this serious.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Given the were unlikely to ever see zero Covid a decision will be made on how many deaths per year is acceptable and we will have to live alongside it like we do flu etc.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting point
Normal seasonal flu regularly kills thousands a year despite the flu jab being available, mostly the old and infirm and the country doesn’t seem to bat an eyelid at this, 
it would be interesting to see how many flu deaths have had the flu jab. 

I seem to recall a figure of almost 20000 flu deaths a few years ago


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## Ethan (Feb 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Dr Susan Hopkins (on SAGE) wants restrictions in place until "*at least *everyone in the UK has been vaccinated". The at least scares me.

KCL did a study and non communicable diseases are much less survivable than pre pandemic. Just due to diagnosis delays Cancer survivability is down almost 9%. Suicides are most likely up, and then there's the mental health damage that for some will be irreparable.
		
Click to expand...

She said "some" restrictions will have to be in place until all adults are vaccinated. If you don't think that is what is going to happen, I suggest you adjust your expectations. There will be "some" restrictions in place for a lot longer than that. 

But if you want to deal with those delays in cancer care and suicides, you need to do so by removing that which is interrupting their care, which is Covid. All paths of logic lead to the clear conclusion that unless and until we properly solve Covid, none of these things will recover, and no amount of vague waffling about 'living with Covid' will change that, unless you mean 'Sod the oldies, they have had a good run, let the virus take them, its worth it.'.


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## D-S (Feb 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			To demand that *all* COVID restrictions are lifted by the end of April seems to me to rather miss the point about a highly infectious virus operating within a population not fully vaccinated against it’s worst outcomes - particularly as we do not understand all of the non-fatal outcomes and do not know if further significant mutation will present itself in the UK and what level of infection or transmission will be present at that point in time.

I too desperately wish for all restrictions to be gone but i will not demand that of the government - and that sort of demand coming from anyone worries me.  But if that is what happens then I suppose we see where we are in six months time. But if it comes to pass I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed and that doesn’t seem to be a particularly science-based approach to something this serious.
		
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Seems a dumb demand given that we have always been told that this will be a gradual easing based on the numbers which seems to have been accepted by many. Even if we returned to January 2020 total absence of restrictions I am sure many would not feel comfortable in crowded bars, transport and sporting events. I certainly would.


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## banjofred (Feb 14, 2021)

Covid is sticking around...."dealing with it" now will make things better, but it will still be here. There will be some restrictions for the foreseeable future. At *some point*, the Govt has got to increase their income/debt issue. Right now it's like an out of control credit card abuser.....spending a lot more than it's taking in. At what point does the Govt *have* to open things up....regardless of health? If I use my credit card too much and get into serious debt, at some point they will cut me off.


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## hovis (Feb 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Something that's starting to p me off is people (mainly seem to be in the hospitality industry) claiming their "covid safe environment"

Covid is invisible it's impossible to be fully "covid safe"
		
Click to expand...

I had this argument with my friend who is a gym owner.  He hand on heart thinks he's gym would be safe.   I'm itching to get back to the gym but by their very nature have to be one of the worst places to visit.   In  between lockdowns I watched a bloke doing a bench press. The sun just happened to be shining though the window over him at the perfect angle.  This demonstrated how much mist and spray was flying out of his mouth (a substantial distance too). That was the last time I went


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*To demand that all COVID restrictions are lifted by the end of April *seems to me to rather miss the point about a highly infectious virus operating within a population not fully vaccinated against it’s worst outcomes - particularly as we do not understand all of the non-fatal outcomes and do not know if further significant mutation will present itself in the UK and what level of infection or transmission will be present at that point in time.

I too desperately wish for all restrictions to be gone but i will not demand that (of the government) - and that sort of demand coming from anyone worries me.  But if that is what happens then I suppose we see where we are in six months time. But if it comes to pass I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed and that doesn’t seem to be a particularly science-based approach to something this serious.
		
Click to expand...

Who is demanding that ?

I haven’t seen , heard or read anyone demand that “all” Covid restrictions to be lifted by April? 

The Covid Restrictions in some areas will last through to the end of year even if it’s 2 m gaps , masks , shields , restrictions on indoor gatherings 

But to be clear no one is demanding all restrictions are removed


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Something that's starting to p me off is people (mainly seem to be in the hospitality industry) claiming their "covid safe environment"

Covid is invisible it's impossible to be fully "covid safe"
		
Click to expand...

It's become a marketing phrase unfortunately and if places don't use it then people will believe something is wrong. If one place said that they were as safe as they could be in the circumstances (the honest  answer) and another said they were covid safe (marketing spiel) which would people go to? 

I think it is something we will hear more and more of.


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## yandabrown (Feb 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who is demanding that ?

I haven’t seen , heard or read anyone demand that “all” Covid restrictions to be lifted by April?

The Covid Restrictions in some areas will last through to the end of year even if it’s 2 m gaps , masks , shields , restrictions on indoor gatherings

But to be clear no one is demanding all restrictions are removed
		
Click to expand...

Uhh, yes there is: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56058744


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			Uhh, yes there is: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56058744

Click to expand...

👍

That was discussed on the radio this morning and the belief was it still included the use of masks , gapping and some level of social distancing 🤷‍♂️


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## upsidedown (Feb 14, 2021)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...k-race-to-trace-three-local-cases-in-auckland

Even with all their good work it just shows how easy it is for the virus to flare up/transmit again, all though suspect this may be from airline travel. 
Shows to me how important it is for everyone to be vaccinated and still keep social distancing and masks wearing until we are truly on top of it.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 14, 2021)

Happy valentine's Day people


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 14, 2021)

Had my jab yesterday, very relived.
But this morning everything is aching.Especially my back ??
Astra Zeneca.
Very impressed with St Helens vac centre in the rugby ground ,it was so well managed.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 14, 2021)

hovis said:



			I had this argument with my friend who is a gym owner.  He hand on heart thinks he's gym would be safe.   I'm itching to get back to the gym but by their very nature have to be one of the worst places to visit.   In  between lockdowns I watched a bloke doing a bench press. The sun just happened to be shining though the window over him at the perfect angle.  This demonstrated how much mist and spray was flying out of his mouth (a substantial distance too). That was the last time I went
		
Click to expand...

That is a brilliant example of aerosol spread. And it happens ,of course, in normal everyday breathing. ( the exertion projects it further, obviously, but everyone is using potential aerosol spread).
No problem outdoors much, but indoors...... This expelled breath recirculates and is readily breathed in by ( eventually) everyone in that room.

S/D wouldn't come into it in those circumstances.

I'm convinced that it is such aerosol spread that is/has caused this latest winter spike.


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## Backache (Feb 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is a certain logic there, in that the wild viral infection acts as a primary immunisation and then a vaccination boosts that up to the desired level. If you demonstrate an antibody response in the person that is broadly in line with what you expect from vaccination, then they shouldn't really be very different. One issue may be the specificity of the immunity, which may be narrow from wild infection, but the booster should take care of that, although no studies are available to show that an infection-vaccination combo is equivalent to 2 vaccinations.
		
Click to expand...

As far as clinical studys to demonstrate equivalence that is true but lab studies at least in pre print form from very reputable groups have demonstrated equivalent or superior antibody titres in infection/vaccination combination compared with two vaccines with the mRNA vaccines. The French seem to allowing this according to news reports.
One such study is here:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.29.21250653v1.full.pdf


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That is a brilliant example of aerosol spread. And it happens ,of course, in normal everyday breathing. ( the exertion projects it further, obviously, but everyone is using potential aerosol spread).
No problem outdoors much, but indoors...... This expelled breath recirculates and is readily breathed in by ( eventually) everyone in that room.

S/D wouldn't come into it in those circumstances.

I'm convinced that it is such aerosol spread that is/has caused this latest winter spike.
		
Click to expand...

I think that’s why flying is out for me this year at least.
No matter how safe they say it is .
I always seem to catch something on a flight.


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Crickey, not that long ago we had a generation who were prepared to do as they were told for over 4 years. We now have some of the present generation that haven’t got the discipline to last for a year.

Are we becoming a society of “Jacks”.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think any of our generations have come out of this particularly well


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## Ethan (Feb 14, 2021)

Backache said:



			As far as clinical studys to demonstrate equivalence that is true but lab studies at least in pre print form from very reputable groups have demonstrated equivalent or superior antibody titres in infection/vaccination combination compared with two vaccines with the mRNA vaccines. The French seem to allowing this according to news reports.
One such study is here:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.29.21250653v1.full.pdf

Click to expand...

That study asked a slightly different question, though, by comparing people who were seropositive with those who were seronegative. That is not quite the same as comparing people with a prior history of proven Covid with previously unaffected. It is not surprising that the seropositives mounted a stronger and faster response to vaccination, whether first or second. That study also only measured antibodies, and the immune response is more complex than that. 

Either way, the French approach sounds very reasonable.


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## larmen (Feb 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That is a brilliant example of aerosol spread. And it happens ,of course, in normal everyday breathing. ( the exertion projects it further, obviously, but everyone is using potential aerosol spread).
No problem outdoors much, but indoors...... This expelled breath recirculates and is readily breathed in by ( eventually) everyone in that room.

S/D wouldn't come into it in those circumstances.

I'm convinced that it is such aerosol spread that is/has caused this latest winter spike.
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t that what face masks are supposed to limit to a minimum?


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## chrisd (Feb 14, 2021)

A friend of mine who is vulnerable says that if you go somewhere that there are runners then it's a bit like someone smoking near you or walking past  - if you can smell the cigarette smoke that could be roughly the same as Covid in the air from their puffing and panting


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## Fade and Die (Feb 14, 2021)

Obviously some people will come out of COVID better than others....

Covid-19 has cost global workers $3.7 trillion:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/25/covid-19-workers-lost-earnings-ilo-job-losses

Meanwhile the billionaires out there have gained an extra $3.9 trillion:
https://www.businessinsider.com/bil...andemic-coronavirus-vaccines-2021-1?r=US&IR=T

That’s enough extra to pay for a worldwide Cover-19 vaccination programme...Will the rich involved consider giving a bit back? If Amazon founder Geoff Bezos behaviour is anything to go by it looks like the answer is an emphatic NO. He’s more concerned with stepping out of the limelight before questions are asked about how he, allegedly, cut back on delivery workers income:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/amazon-jeff-bezos-resignation-ftc-b1797000.html?xtor=ES-208-

Jarvis Cocker hit the nail square on with this: (CAUTION EXTREMELY SWEARY)



Spoiler



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCvYUaQXnE8


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			Isn’t that what face masks are supposed to limit to a minimum?
		
Click to expand...

No. they limit the effects of droplets, which SD combats.
But your breath is not limited by a mask. What you exhale from your lungs , whether through a mask or not, is the same amount going into the room, yes?
IOW the mask does not push your breath back into you 😀


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## hovis (Feb 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			Isn’t that what face masks are supposed to limit to a minimum?
		
Click to expand...

You don't wear a mask In the gym


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## larmen (Feb 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No. they limit the effects of droplets, which SD combats.
But your breath is not limited by a mask. What you exhale from your lungs , whether through a mask or not, is the same amount going into the room, yes?
IOW the mask does not push your breath back into you 😀
		
Click to expand...

But, don’t you just breath in your own co2 and die after awhile? I read that on Facebook ;-)

Ok, I was thinking droplets rather than fully airborne.


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## road2ruin (Feb 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			But, don’t you just breath in your own co2 and die after awhile? I read that on Facebook ;-)

Ok, I was thinking droplets rather than fully airborne.
		
Click to expand...

Wearing a mask isn’t advised whilst doing exercise as it does reduce breathing capacity.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Wearing a mask isn’t advised whilst doing exercise as it does reduce breathing capacity.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t think it reduces breathing capacity as it’s full of gaps. 
It just gets moist and damp and you end up wearing a bacteria ridden rag rubbing all over your face. 
You could wear a buff/snood with a panty liner that you could change out which was recommended...


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## road2ruin (Feb 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t think it reduces breathing capacity as it’s full of gaps.
It just gets moist and damp and you end up wearing a bacteria ridden rag rubbing all over your face.
You could wear a buff/snood with a panty liner that you could change out which was recommended...
		
Click to expand...

I got the info from the WHO website. Someone on a FB site was suggesting that all joggers and cyclists etc should be forced to wear masks to prevent the ‘huge’ cloud of Covid that will follow them. It was pointed out that the WHO actually advise against mask wearing for exercise as it reduces breathing capacity.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			Uhh, yes there is: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56058744

Click to expand...

Thankyou - well there you go.  I am unable to post such as that as I would be given an infraction and have my access suspended.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			👍

That was discussed on the radio this morning and the belief was it still included the use of masks , gapping and some level of social distancing 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

You might hope that that would be the case - but the reporting of the words and my understanding of the demands does rather suggest a lifting of ALL covid restrictions and therefore gives substance and solid backing to the idea that a 'back to normal' is actually more than just a possibility - and so the expectation is set amongst those who have 'had enough'.

But that may just be the reporting and my reading of it.  Anyway.  There is time and there will be a time to come when we can reflect fully.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou - well there you go.  I am unable to post such as that as I would be given an infraction and have my access suspended.
		
Click to expand...

Come on now Hogie, you know darned well that your politicising goes well beyond posting a news link.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t think it reduces breathing capacity as it’s full of gaps.
It just gets moist and damp and you end up wearing a bacteria ridden rag rubbing all over your face.
You could wear a buff/snood with a panty liner that you could change out which was recommended...
		
Click to expand...

I saw a similar argument and a professor of public health who I think wrote an article for a  running mag explained she does and recommends putting a panty liner over her face when passing people .  It was at that point I thought  these “experts” are off their head. 

I’ll take a look at the WHO guidance but that’s subject to change if they get rubbed the right way.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360983573596143619

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360984977207398408


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## D-S (Feb 14, 2021)

Good to see patients in hospital dropping by around 1000 per day too.


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## Ethan (Feb 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I saw a similar argument and a professor of public health who I think wrote an article for a  running mag explained she does and recommends putting a panty liner over her face when passing people .  It was at that point I thought  these “experts” are off their head.

I’ll take a look at the WHO guidance but that’s subject to change if they get rubbed the right way.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not crazy. It is similar to the disposable paper filter used in cloth masks. Personally, I’d do the paper filter but I don’t have any of the others handy.


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## Crow (Feb 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou - well there you go.  I am unable to post such as that as I would be given an infraction and have my access suspended.
		
Click to expand...

I can hear the ice cracking.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on now Hogie, you know darned well that your politicising goes well beyond posting a news link.
		
Click to expand...

Actually I don’t if the news link has political content and in many circumstances it is not what I post but what others choose to read between the lines.  See for instance responses of some to my simply quoting the words of a certain Mr Shapps a few days ago when he stated the government position on holidays this year.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It’s not crazy. It is similar to the disposable paper filter used in cloth masks. Personally, I’d do the paper filter but I don’t have any of the others handy.
		
Click to expand...

I’d prefer holding my breath and blowing my cheeks up like a puffer fish to accentuate to passers by. Would look and feel more sane than a Tena Lady. 
The Professor could of recommended the paper filter you mentioned though instead of a sanitary towel.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 14, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1360995827108491272


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## pauljames87 (Feb 15, 2021)

Day 1 post first jab

Feel ok just like I been for a 5 mile bike ride when it's been years.. know what I mean? Proper ache 

That's it

Disappointed that my 5G service hasn't improved.. I will be contacting Mr gates


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## bobmac (Feb 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Day 1 post first jab

Feel ok just like I been for a 5 mile bike ride when it's been years.. know what I mean? Proper ache

That's it

Disappointed that my 5G service hasn't improved.. I will be contacting Mr gates
		
Click to expand...

Don't bother, he'll contact you, he knows where you are


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’d prefer holding my breath and blowing my cheeks up like a puffer fish to accentuate to passers by. Would look and feel more sane than a Tena Lady.
The Professor could of recommended the paper filter you mentioned though instead of a sanitary towel.
		
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Well, it isn't a great look to those who recognise what the item is, although many won't. Perhaps the Professor is more concerned about the harmful effects of Covid, and she might not be wrong in that assessment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2021)

For those who have had the vaccine, what proof of id was needed when you attended for your appt?
Getting conflicting advice between Local GP doing it and Centralised location.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 15, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			For those who have had the vaccine, what proof of id was needed when you attended for your appt?
Getting conflicting advice between Local GP doing it and Centralised location.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing for me

I booked via a txt system 

That was it

Took my driving licence incase 

Showed up took my name, dob and Drs surgery that was it


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## arnieboy (Feb 15, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			For those who have had the vaccine, what proof of id was needed when you attended for your appt?
Getting conflicting advice between Local GP doing it and Centralised location.
		
Click to expand...

None, just had to confirm name and date of birth at the registration desk.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Nothing for me

I booked via a txt system

That was it

Took my driving licence incase

Showed up took my name, dob and Drs surgery that was it
		
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arnieboy said:



			None, just had to confirm name and date of birth at the registration desk.
		
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Cheers guys.👍🏻


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 15, 2021)

My mother-in-law told me that getting the vaccine was a real shot in the arm.


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## larmen (Feb 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Nothing for me

I booked via a txt system

That was it

Took my driving licence incase

Showed up took my name, dob and Drs surgery that was it
		
Click to expand...

That’s overkill. ;-)
They took my name, I pointed at it on the list as they didn’t immediately find it. Done!

I guess, it differs. I took my text message and passport just in case.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			For those who have had the vaccine, what proof of id was needed when you attended for your appt?
Getting conflicting advice between Local GP doing it and Centralised location.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing.
Had a QR code on my phone .


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Day 1 post first jab

Feel ok just like I been for a 5 mile bike ride when it's been years.. know what I mean? Proper ache

That's it

Disappointed that my 5G service hasn't improved.. I will be contacting Mr gates
		
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I was like that after mine .
But day two now and I am fine no probs.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 15, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I was like that after mine .
But day two now and I am fine no probs.
		
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Headache for me now..

Hopefully that's last of it


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Headache for me now..

Hopefully that's last of it
		
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Apparently those symptoms show your immune system is working properly.
It’s a massive relief to me and I do feel more positive going forward.
Let’s just hope it’s all over soon.


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## Kellfire (Feb 15, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			For those who have had the vaccine, what proof of id was needed when you attended for your appt?
Getting conflicting advice between Local GP doing it and Centralised location.
		
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All I needed my staff ID because I had it through my work.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2021)

On a positive note we got jabbed this morning... Probably travelled the furthest away from home this year to facilitate... Nearly all the volunteers and oppos were from the BAME community...

Sadly tarnished by news of another family member 'lost' to covid... 52 years of age... No [to the best of our knowledge] underlying health issues...


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			On a positive note we got jabbed this morning... Probably travelled the furthest away from home this year to facilitate... Nearly all the volunteers and oppos were from the BAME community...

Sadly tarnished by news of another family member 'lost' to covid... 52 years of age... No [to the best of our knowledge] underlying health issues...
		
Click to expand...

Good for you, on your way to getting past this curse.

Sorry to hear about your family member. The effects of Covid are often mistakenly considered by many to be isolated to older people.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Good for you, on your way to getting past this curse.

Sorry to hear about your family member. The effects of Covid are often mistakenly considered by many to be isolated to older people.
		
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Would that be a problem if we open everything up.
The hospitals will still be full but just with younger people.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 15, 2021)

David had his invite to get his vaccine today. I think the local surgeries have been pretty slow getting going so the nearest is Biggleswade - he's booked in for Friday


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## GB72 (Feb 15, 2021)

Not sure but I am guessing my wife may not now be called in early for her jab. looking at the news today, it looks like there has been a bit of an update on what is classed as serious enough asthma to warrant an early jab and simply having a steroid inhaler is now not enough. To be fair I was in 2 minds about it anyway. I was over the moon that my wife would get the jab and be protected but knowing that none of her conditions are serious and so she may be one who slipped through a crack to move up the list did not sit totally well with me.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			For those who have had the vaccine, what proof of id was needed when you attended for your appt?
Getting conflicting advice between Local GP doing it and Centralised location.
		
Click to expand...

Just asked my name and ticked it on a list.


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Would that be a problem if we open everything up.
The hospitals will still be full but just with younger people.
		
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Really? I will assume that your response is intended as satire.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2021)

My Wife and I had the Pfizer jab and had no side effects other than a slightly painful arm for a day, people I know who had the Oxford one all seem to have suffered some side effects. I did read that the second Pfizer tends to give more side effects though.


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## road2ruin (Feb 15, 2021)

My folks (mid 70's) and my grandfather (101) have now all had the Pfizer job, no odd effects which is a positive.


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## DRW (Feb 15, 2021)

You can access the report data for vaccines here, if you like reading that kind of stuff :-

COVID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf (publishing.service.gov.uk)

COVID-19_mRNA_Pfizer_BioNTech_vaccine_analysis_print.pdf (publishing.service.gov.uk)

Mum was knocked out for one/two days with the oxford vaccine but swiftly recovered and after a week all fine and dandy. Couple of people in family had Pfizer, nothing really.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2021)

Anyway let’s get back on track 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361345282852737024
numbers below the 10k now 👏👏👏👏


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2021)

Missed having the Municipality Lockdown lifted by one case. We have tiered lockdowns here xxx per 100,000. 0-500, everything is open. 500-1000, town boundaries are closed but all businesses, bars restaurants etc are open. Above 1000, only essential businesses and essential shops are open. Above 2000, you are only allowed out to go to the shop. There's also an 8pm curfew, which allows you to pick up take aways.

Trend is very much going the right way. Currently 102 cases, equating to 1005 per 100,000.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Really? I will assume that your response is intended as satire.
		
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No it isn’t.
As we protect the older people surley any more hospitalised as we open pubs ,shops etc will be from a younger age group I would imagine.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2021)

The reports of very low BAME uptake for the jab in Care and Medical services is rather concerning. I guess it would create all kinds of protests if a no jab no job rule was used but it does make you think what kind of personal justification they use, it surely can't be they don't have information available.


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			No it isn’t.
As we protect the older people surley any more hospitalised as we open pubs ,shops etc will be from a younger age group I would imagine.
		
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OK, well I am not OK with a situation where large numbers of middle aged people, with jobs and dependent families, are allowed to get ill to the extent of hospitalisation, with the PTSD and long Covid that goes with it, so Wetherspoons can open.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			My Wife and I had the Pfizer jab and had no side effects other than a slightly painful arm for a day, people I know who had the Oxford one all seem to have suffered some side effects. I did read that the second Pfizer tends to give more side effects though.
		
Click to expand...

Same here, and again a mate had the Oxford and got a reaction.
I read somewhere that the oxford accident uses a very mild form of the virus: the Pfizer one doesn't. mRNA or something like that.
No doubt Ethan will enlighten us 😀


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The reports of very low BAME uptake for the jab in Care and Medical services is rather concerning. I guess it would create all kinds of protests if a no jab no job rule was used but it does make you think what kind of personal justification they use, it surely can't be they don't have information available.
		
Click to expand...

I think no jab no job will certainly happen in some job roles. How can you continue in a care home with all the traumas that sector went through, is going through, and not be vaccinated? Surely residents, will ask, those who choose the homes will ask and so on. Once people start moving out, homes lose fees the owners will have no choice. The job is untenable imo.

The same could well apply in any healthcare role, yes NHS, and potentially a whole host of jobs. 

Do you think protests would garner much public support? I can't see it.


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Missed having the Municipality Lockdown lifted by one case. We have tiered lockdowns here xxx per 100,000. 0-500, everything is open. 500-1000, town boundaries are closed but all businesses, bars restaurants etc are open. Above 1000, only essential businesses and essential shops are open. Above 2000, you are only allowed out to go to the shop. There's also an 8pm curfew, which allows you to pick up take aways.

Trend is very much going the right way. Currently 102 cases, equating to 1005 per 100,000.
		
Click to expand...

The above, posted earlier, is the positives. We're in a village of 3,000+, of which there's an expat community of around 300. The majority of the expat community is retired, some of them in their late 80's and early 90's. And some of them are very frail. Some of them haven't been outside their front gate since mid-March last year, and in many cases they haven't had hardly a visitor in that time too - some life.

This last lockdown has been very different in so much as everyone knows someone who's had Covid - previously, it was almost remote/distant. Sadly, in the last few weeks many of us know several people who've succumbed to it too. Characters across the community are no longer with us, e.g. Beer Belly Bob, Taxi Juan, Pedro the Pirate and so many more. Even the mayor, early 40's, has been seriously ill with it. 4 recoveries within our bowling club, 2 of which are in their 90's.

Anyway, I digress a little. I mention the above impact, and names, as a reminder that its real people, inc. friends, we are losing or who are having a very restricted time in their twilight years. Many of us have children, albeit grown up, in the UK we haven't seen for a very long time.


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## Rooter (Feb 15, 2021)

Thinking of how it is affecting others, anyone heard from Homer? I know he has not logged in for a fortnight. He was struggling with the front line stress of it all. I know he can be marmite for some, but he is a good chap and don't like to think of anyone who is struggling. I know a few chaps here know him, so pass him our best. I hope he managed to get some time off work and the support he needs.

My PM box is always open if anyone wants to chat. Most of what I say is rubbish, but hey! Better than not talking! 

x


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Same here, and again a mate had the Oxford and got a reaction.
I read somewhere that the oxford accident uses a very mild form of the virus: the Pfizer one doesn't. mRNA or something like that.
No doubt Ethan will enlighten us 😀
		
Click to expand...

The Oxford and Janssen use a version of a common virus which is harmless to humans as a vector (vehicle) for the genetic code, which then generates the spike protein which in turn generates the immune reaction that protects you. The Pfizer vaccine takes a more direct route and presents the specific instructions about how the immune system should respond. 

None of the currently available vaccines contain any Covid virus, so you can't catch Covid from any of them. Some vaccines in development (for example on e of the Chinese ones) are an older style attenuated (weakened) Covid virus type. 

The reactions you got are immune reactions in the sense that your body is revving up its immune system. Some people who had Covid infections have noted stronger reactions to their first vaccine, and others have noted stronger reactions to the second vacc (same thing really).


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think no jab no job will certainly happen in some job roles. How can you continue in a care home with all the traumas that sector went through, is going through, and not be vaccinated? Surely residents, will ask, those who choose the homes will ask and so on. Once people start moving out, homes lose fees the owners will have no choice. The job is untenable imo.

The same could well apply in any healthcare role, yes NHS, and potentially a whole host of jobs.

Do you think protests would garner much public support? I can't see it.
		
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I agree with you, but unfortunately, I can see the protests😬


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 15, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree with you, but unfortunately, I can see the protests😬
		
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Do you think any protests would work? The weight of public opinion is we desperately want out of this and the vaccine offers the route. Anyone blocking that path is likely to get short shrift. The vaccine refusers are very much a minority and I don't expect much sympathy from the mass of the public. (This view excepts anyone who is unable to take it for medical reasons)


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## DanFST (Feb 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do you think any protests would work? The weight of public opinion is we desperately want out of this and the vaccine offers the route. Anyone blocking that path is likely to get short shrift. The vaccine refusers are very much a minority and I don't expect much sympathy from the mass of the public. (This view excepts anyone who is unable to take it for medical reasons)
		
Click to expand...


We've already started looking at ways to implement no vaccine no entry to the office, legally. It's a grey area.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 15, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We've already started looking at ways to implement no vaccine no entry to the office, legally. It's a grey area.
		
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I heard someone say a while ago that it is not an issue in a healthcare environment and that some immunisations are already required as part of a job.

In non health environments I'm sure it gets trickier but based on the upheaval and impact of the last 12 months on business I would think the case is pretty strong.


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I heard someone say a while ago that it is not an issue in a healthcare environment and that some immunisations are already required as part of a job.

In non health environments I'm sure it gets trickier but based on the upheaval and impact of the last 12 months on business I would think the case is pretty strong.
		
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A vaccine passport, or it being mandatory is very much to the fore here in Spain. The way the authorities are looking at this is by saying that not having it endangers public health, which is an offence over here. But then you get the human rights crowd saying you can’t force it on us.

Businesses are saying they have a duty of care to their employees, and that includes limiting the risk of COVID by insisting the staff are vaccinated.

We’re also looking at the legality of this for membership to the bowls club.


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## Imurg (Feb 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Thinking of how it is affecting others, anyone heard from Homer? I know he has not logged in for a fortnight. He was struggling with the front line stress of it all. I know he can be marmite for some, but he is a good chap and don't like to think of anyone who is struggling. I know a few chaps here know him, so pass him our best. I hope he managed to get some time off work and the support he needs.

My PM box is always open if anyone wants to chat. Most of what I say is rubbish, but hey! Better than not talking!

x
		
Click to expand...

Although he's not been kn here he has been on other SMs so he's still around.


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## Slime (Feb 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Thinking of how it is affecting others, *anyone heard from Homer?* I know he has not logged in for a fortnight. He was struggling with the front line stress of it all. I know he can be marmite for some, but he is a good chap and don't like to think of anyone who is struggling. I know a few chaps here know him, so pass him our best. I hope he managed to get some time off work and the support he needs.

My PM box is always open if anyone wants to chat. Most of what I say is rubbish, but hey! Better than not talking!

x
		
Click to expand...

Funny you mention that, I messaged him last night ................................ no reply yet.
I just wanted to hear that he's okay.


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## drdel (Feb 15, 2021)

Partner and I had the AZ jab as have neighbours and friends. No side effects among any òf us, that's about 10 people I know.


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			A vaccine passport, or it being mandatory is very much to the fore here in Spain. The way the authorities are looking at this is by saying that not having it endangers public health, which is an offence over here. But then you get the human rights crowd saying you can’t force it on us.

Businesses are saying they have a duty of care to their employees, and that includes limiting the risk of COVID by insisting the staff are vaccinated.

We’re also looking at the legality of this for membership to the bowls club.
		
Click to expand...

There will be a vaccination passport (perhaps called something else). The Govt is trying not to start to encourage people who are vacc'd to behave differently, but when the over 50s are all vacc'd, it will appear.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 15, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We've already started looking at ways to implement no vaccine no entry to the office, legally. It's a grey area.
		
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Why when the Vaccine is said to only prevent serious illness? Not prevent infection.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Thinking of how it is affecting others, anyone heard from Homer? I know he has not logged in for a fortnight. He was struggling with the front line stress of it all. I know he can be marmite for some, but he is a good chap and don't like to think of anyone who is struggling. I know a few chaps here know him, so pass him our best. I hope he managed to get some time off work and the support he needs.

My PM box is always open if anyone wants to chat. Most of what I say is rubbish, but hey! Better than not talking!

x
		
Click to expand...

He’s been active on twitter and updating his woes through his blog, keeping people up to date on how he’s coping etc.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 15, 2021)

We got issued with a card indicating we'd been jabbed... Won't be at all surprised if that doesn't morph into something more at a later time as more get jabbed...

Difficult to find any positives, at this present time, but our local hospital has moved from 170 covid patients [at peak] to 110...

Desperately in need of some alcohol but having had my jab earlier will give it a miss...  Post #16,235


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

If any of you use the NHS app (not the track and trace one, the regular one), and your practice uploads to it, the vaccination should appear there. I can't imagine it would be too hard to programme it to produce a QR code for scanning at Malaga Airport, Nando's or the Madejski Stadium.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Why when the Vaccine is said to only prevent serious illness? Not prevent infection.
		
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Does it not reduce the potential for infection?

Look at it another way as well.  An employee doesn't have the vaccine and is in a role that requires contact with others. If they catch covid can they sue their employer? Can they only perform duties that are solitary?


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## DanFST (Feb 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There will be a vaccination passport (perhaps called something else). The Govt is trying not to start to encourage people who are vacc'd to behave differently, but when the over 50s are all vacc'd, it will appear.
		
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You would assume those under 50 are exempt tho? 

It makes a tricky situation. I'd wait until every adult had a chance at a jab before mentioning it just to stop any problems.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Does it not reduce the potential for infection?

Look at it another way as well.  An employee doesn't have the vaccine and is in a role that requires contact with others. If they catch covid can they sue their employer? Can they only perform duties that are solitary?
		
Click to expand...

I don’t know if it does or not - I’m not an immunologist! I can only quote what I read and and whats read can sometimes not be true and and my cognitive bias only lets me read what I want to read. 
But I have read more information is coming the infection side. 
Doesn’t make sense to me that if it did prevent infection then you still have to wear masks and can’t see anyone. 

https://www.healthline.com/health-n...covid-19-after-getting-a-vaccine-what-to-know


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## SaintHacker (Feb 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If any of you use the NHS app (not the track and trace one, the regular one), and your practice uploads to it, the vaccination should appear there. I can't imagine it would be too hard to programme it to produce a QR code for scanning at Malaga Airport, Nando's or the Madejski Stadium.
		
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You'd need more than a covid vaccine to enter the Madjeski safely...😉


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

DanFST said:



			You would assume those under 50 are exempt tho?

It makes a tricky situation. I'd wait until every adult had a chance at a jab before mentioning it just to stop any problems.
		
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No, I wouldn't assume that. The UK is going to be forced to adopt vaccination passports whether they like it or not, first for foreign travel and then private facilities can choose to demand the same from customers. Once vaccination reaches a tipping point, it will happen. It won't wait until everybody has had a jab or that is this summer's travel market buggered again.


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			You'd need more than a covid vaccine to enter the Madjeski safely...😉
		
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Safe enough for any respectful away fans to visit. So trouble for Millwall, obviously.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 15, 2021)

The wife and I had our Oxford jabs on Friday morning.
I've been fine, the wife was fine too but then fell quite ill Saturday night/ Sunday, but she's fine now .


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## Leftitshort (Feb 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There will be a vaccination passport (perhaps called something else). The Govt is trying not to start to encourage people who are vacc'd to behave differently, but when the over 50s are all vacc'd, it will appear.
		
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Doesn’t sound terribly fair. We lockdown to protect the vulnerable, they get a jab, we’re left in a state of limbo whilst those that have been jabbed live it up. Can’t see that going so well


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Doesn’t sound terribly fair. We lockdown to protect the vulnerable, they get a jab, we’re left in a state of limbo whilst those that have been jabbed live it up. Can’t see that going so well
		
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Can't wait for a good old knees up at the tea dance.


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## IainP (Feb 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The Oxford and Janssen use a version of a common virus which is harmless to humans as a vector (vehicle) for the genetic code, which then generates the spike protein which in turn generates the immune reaction that protects you. The Pfizer vaccine takes a more direct route and presents the specific instructions about how the immune system should respond.

None of the currently available vaccines contain any Covid virus, so you can't catch Covid from any of them. Some vaccines in development (for example on e of the Chinese ones) are an older style attenuated (weakened) Covid virus type.

The reactions you got are immune reactions in the sense that your body is revving up its immune system. Some people who had Covid infections have noted stronger reactions to their first vaccine, and others have noted stronger reactions to the second vacc (same thing really).
		
Click to expand...

I recall some early reports of possible positive side effects for cancer sufferers and similar - were they attributed to just one of the vaccines would you know?


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## Leftitshort (Feb 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Can't wait for a good old knees up at the tea dance.
		
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Hope you choke on a stale scone!! 🤣🤣👍


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## Leftitshort (Feb 15, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Sounds great.

Signed: 52 Yr old holidaymaker 😎
		
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Bring me back a t shirt.... my parents went to Benidorm etc etc!!


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## Leftitshort (Feb 15, 2021)

It’s all blitz spirit & dame Vera lynne until the war analogies become inconvenient. You fellas want to hang on to VJ Day. (You’ve got me doing it now) 🤣🤣🤣


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## larmen (Feb 15, 2021)

I should get my 2nd shot at the end of April latest, assuming 12 weeks interval. As mid 40s I am going to be the youngest guy on Mallorca ;-)
I will have to leave the family behind.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 15, 2021)

Another post that could've gone in the "Random Irritations" thread. Just been checking out some holidays for 4 nights in August this year. A couple of years ago we went away during the same period to two different places that cost us £420 and £510 for the 4 nights. They've both got availability for exactly the same weeks this year but the prices are now £790 and £1190 respectively. I would've expected the prices to have risen in the last couple of years but it seems as though some places are trying to recoup all of their losses from last year in one hit. Sod that for a game of soldiers. There's no chance I'll be paying those prices.


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## DanFST (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No, I wouldn't assume that. The UK is going to be forced to adopt vaccination passports whether they like it or not, first for foreign travel and then private facilities can choose to demand the same from customers. Once vaccination reaches a tipping point, it will happen. It won't wait until everybody has had a jab or that is this summer's travel market buggered again.
		
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We don't have numbers of fatalities by ages here. But if we use the US' numbers from 10th of February,

*3567* deaths in ages 0-35.
*443,107 *total deaths.

All under 35's in the USA make 0.8% of the deaths, Women under 35 are at even less risk of fatality. The top 4 risk groups are still more likely to die than an under 35 *after* *vaccination* from what I'm seeing, unless I'm reading the very early data wrong. It would be political suicide.

I'm told as a young person we're all in this together, Is that only when suits? I know you are right and it's coming, other countries have it in the works. But I'd have thought the government would try and calm the *majority* of the population who are still much lower risk and make the whole thing a bit fairer. Not to mention if it was to get bad and another strain ruined our progress up to now, you can forget about those that got left behind following any restrictions.


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## chrisd (Feb 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Another post that could've gone in the "Random Irritations" thread. Just been checking out some holidays for 4 nights in August this year. A couple of years ago we went away during the same period to two different places that cost us £420 and £510 for the 4 nights. They've both got availability for exactly the same weeks this year but the prices are now £790 and £1190 respectively. I would've expected the prices to have risen in the last couple of years but it seems as though some places are trying to recoup all of their losses from last year in one hit. Sod that for a game of soldiers. There's no chance I'll be paying those prices.
		
Click to expand...

Looks like they are cutting their own throats


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We don't have numbers of fatalities by ages here. But if we use the US' numbers from 10th of February,

*3567* deaths in ages 0-35.
*443,107 *total deaths.

All under 35's in the USA make 0.8% of the deaths, Women under 35 are at even less risk of fatality. The top 4 risk groups are still more likely to die than an under 35 *after* *vaccination* from what I'm seeing, unless I'm reading the very early data wrong. It would be political suicide.

I'm told as a young person we're all in this together, Is that only when suits? I know you are right and it's coming, other countries have it in the works. But I'd have thought the government would try and calm the *majority* of the population who are still much lower risk and make the whole thing a bit fairer. Not to mention if it was to get bad and another strain ruined our progress up to now, you can forget about those that got left behind following any restrictions.
		
Click to expand...

It is not just about deaths. Long Covid and downstream complications of disease may prove to be an even bigger problem than the acute issues, and hospital and ICU stays are very traumatic for patients and families. It is not really acceptable policy to allow the under 50s (not just the under 35s) to have Covid run through their population. It will encourage more mutations and the chance of a strain that defeats the vaccination and we are back to worse than square one again. Setting this up as the young suffering to protect the old is a mistaken view to take.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Looks like they are cutting their own throats
		
Click to expand...

could well be a case or waiting for last minute deals. 👍


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

IainP said:



			I recall some early reports of possible positive side effects for cancer sufferers and similar - were they attributed to just one of the vaccines would you know?
		
Click to expand...

They have been observed as a beneficial side effect of the immune activation that goes with either type of vaccination. Immunology treatments for cancer were a big area of research and development before Covid, and BCG (the TB vaccination) had been shown to have a good effect on certain cancers.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Another post that could've gone in the "Random Irritations" thread. Just been checking out some holidays for 4 nights in August this year. A couple of years ago we went away during the same period to two different places that cost us £420 and £510 for the 4 nights. They've both got availability for exactly the same weeks this year but the prices are now £790 and £1190 respectively. I would've expected the prices to have risen in the last couple of years but it seems as though some places are trying to recoup all of their losses from last year in one hit. Sod that for a game of soldiers. There's no chance I'll be paying those prices.
		
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Let's hope it is like the Millenium in Cornwall. Sadly I think people are so desperate to get away that they will just bite the bullet.


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Doesn’t sound terribly fair. We lockdown to protect the vulnerable, they get a jab, we’re left in a state of limbo whilst those that have been jabbed live it up. Can’t see that going so well
		
Click to expand...

We lockdown to protect everybody. Just because you are young, doesn't mean you want some of the nasty effects of Covid. It isn't over when the symptoms stop. Covid has a few time bombs available.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			could well be a case or waiting for last minute deals. 👍
		
Click to expand...

Not sure that there will be any. Demand for holidays could well be massive and the greater the restriction on where you can go, the bigger the demand and the higher the cost. I have already given up on the idea of getting away in 2021 and am focusing on booking somewhere for my 20th wedding anniversary and 50th in 2022.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Looks like they are cutting their own throats
		
Click to expand...

Possibly not. I suspect they have taken the view that, when restrictions are taken off   there will be enough people  "desperate " to get away for a break, that the prices will be paid.
And having read on here how some are "craving for release " , they may well succeed.
I'm not saying that it isn't understandable, wanting to be back to normal.
I'm sure we all do.
But I'd bet those prices will not go down, and enough will pay them.
I won't be one , though😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Doesn’t sound terribly fair. We lockdown to protect the vulnerable, they get a jab, we’re left in a state of limbo whilst those that have been jabbed live it up. Can’t see that going so well
		
Click to expand...

Not quite the situation. We lockdown to protect the vulnerable, yes. But we also lockdown to protect all, including you.
Because if the hospitals are broken by Covid then they are broken for everyone and all normal hospital functions.
Vaccinations are moving at a pace, and it won't be long until most adults are done.
Patience. !Not patients 😀


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We don't have numbers of fatalities by ages here. But if we use the US' numbers from 10th of February,

*3567* deaths in ages 0-35.
*443,107 *total deaths.

All under 35's in the USA make 0.8% of the deaths, Women under 35 are at even less risk of fatality. The top 4 risk groups are still more likely to die than an under 35 *after* *vaccination* from what I'm seeing, unless I'm reading the very early data wrong. It would be political suicide.

I'm told as a young person we're all in this together, Is that only when suits? I know you are right and it's coming, other countries have it in the works. But I'd have thought the government would try and calm the *majority* of the population who are still much lower risk and make the whole thing a bit fairer. Not to mention if it was to get bad and another strain ruined our progress up to now, you can forget about those that got left behind following any restrictions.
		
Click to expand...

COVID-19 deaths by age and deaths from COVID-19 only - Office for National Statistics (ons.gov.uk)


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## D-S (Feb 16, 2021)

I can’t imagine any UK leisure businesses only allowing vaccine passports holders entry in the short term, it would be a PR nightmare as they would be seen to be discriminating against the young. Imagine the headlines when a father and mother can go out to the cinema/theatre/restaurant but their children can’t. However I can imagine that might be the case once all over 18’s have at least been offered the first dose.
On the other hand if other countries require such a passport as a condition of entry it will be difficul to deny UK citizens the necessary paperwork. The pressure from the Mediterranean countries not to lose another season will be huge, they can see the billions of Euros sitting in UK pockets and they will move heaven and earth to,get their share, especially as the slower vaccine roll out in the other countries’ holidaymakers that pump money into their economies every summer will make this year a tough one anyway.


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			We don't have numbers of fatalities by ages here. But if we use the US' numbers from 10th of February,

*3567* deaths in ages 0-35.
*443,107 *total deaths.

All under 35's in the USA make 0.8% of the deaths, Women under 35 are at even less risk of fatality. The top 4 risk groups are still more likely to die than an under 35 *after* *vaccination* from what I'm seeing, unless I'm reading the very early data wrong. It would be political suicide.

I'm told as a young person we're all in this together, Is that only when suits? I know you are right and it's coming, other countries have it in the works. But I'd have thought the government would try and calm the *majority* of the population who are still much lower risk and make the whole thing a bit fairer. Not to mention if it was to get bad and another strain ruined our progress up to now, you can forget about those that got left behind following any restrictions.
		
Click to expand...

You might have 50-60 years of holidays to come your way. Someone who is 65 will have a whole lot less. Begrudging them a few decent holidays whilst they're still fit enough seems awfully...  petulant?


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## rudebhoy (Feb 16, 2021)

A couple of examples of a total lack of logic yesterday.

1. Scotland have said all international arrivals need to be quarantined in a hotel on arrival. This seems like a good policy to me. Family arrive from the US, get sent to a hotel, only to be told later that it was a mistake as they had caught a connecting flight in Ireland which is in something called the Common Travel Area and not subject to these restrictions. So now, rather being in "managed isolation", they can go home and self-quarantine. Can see connecting flights from dublin now becoming very popular.

2. At Heathrow, arrivals from "red zone" queueing up side by side with those not from the red zone. Massive risk of cross-contamination. Surely it would have been simple to have one queue for red zone and one queue for everyone else?


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## DanFST (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is not just about deaths. Long Covid and downstream complications of disease may prove to be an even bigger problem than the acute issues, and hospital and ICU stays are very traumatic for patients and families.
		
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Long Covid is a slight concern, agreed. Using me as an example. I've already had it, felt crap for months. Back to normal now. How can getting it again effect me long term?

In regards to hospitalisation stays. EDIT: Incorrect data used. Is their more detailed data on admissions by age? the gov.uk boundry of 18-64 isn't helpful at all. As we know the rate goes up considerably after 45. 

Must add, stayed at Whipps Cross ICU for a bit, everyone was absolutely fantastic and treated me amazingly. Not the norm in the slightest, but it doesn't have to be traumatic!


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

My view of a Vaccine Passport for internal access to pubs/bars etc should only be used once *everyone *has been given the opportunity to have a vaccine, it would be incredibly unfair to discriminate against the young and you risk causing yet another division in society. Remember, there are no guarantees that there won't be another lockdown further down the line, would you seriously expect those who are less affected by the virus to agree to be locked up again having seen all the oldies parading around in pubs whilst they are told they cannot have access. Obviously the same cannot apply for any international travel as other countries will have their own rules with regards access and I would expect us to do the same.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

I'd like to see us return to the tiers but slightly different.. tier level the same accross the board .. just let different things open 

So say next month we go to tier 3 as a nation 

Try and move to tier 2 by may

Tier 1 by the summer 

By then everyone vaccinated and return to "normal"

Not ideal but got to be better than nothing


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## backwoodsman (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



* It is not just about deaths*. Long Covid and downstream complications of disease may prove to be an even bigger problem than the acute issues, and hospital and ICU stays are very traumatic for patients and families. It is not really acceptable policy to allow the under 50s (not just the under 35s) to have Covid run through their population. It will encourage more mutations and the chance of a strain that defeats the vaccination and we are back to worse than square one again. Setting this up as the young suffering to protect the old is a mistaken view to take.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure how many times you've had to say this (and can't be bothered to go back through the thread & count). But, with a bit of luck, just a few more repetitions and your message might finally get through to where it's needed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2021)

We're not great at the moment - my Mrs is very down about our lad as he is heading back into a dark place in his head at not being able to get any sort of work.  He is desperate for something to fill in until the performing arts sector restarts but he just sees that prospect disappearing off into the distance.  And so my Mrs has been taking herself off to bed early evening - just feeling so very down.

Our lad was hopeful that things were looking up as three weeks ago he had an interview for a Currys PC World 'on-line customer support' role, but there were thousands of applicants for the jobs (no surprise) and despite being well qualified for the role he heard late last week that he hadn't been successful.  And living off UC without building up any debt is really very tough - especially when power has been gobbling up money through the cold spell - and work prospects looking ahead are 'not bright'.

He is by nature very positive about life - the glass can be full even when it is only half full.  It's rarely half empty or as empty as it is now.  And if such as he is really struggling then I can imagine serious mental health and financial struggles for many in the mid20s-mid30s age group who have lost their jobs or seen their career grind to a halt - for some see it collapse.

Anyway - he is very much more fortunate than many as he has us to help him out - as much as he hates coming to us for support as for him that just smacks of failure.


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## larmen (Feb 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			You might have 50-60 years of holidays to come your way. Someone who is 65 will have a whole lot less. Begrudging them a few decent holidays whilst they're still fit enough seems awfully...  petulant?
		
Click to expand...

Someone that had 45 years of holidaying can go for more, and someone who only had 10 doesn’t get a chance to catch up?

It’s a 2 way street, isn’t it?


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd like to see us return to the tiers but slightly different.. tier level the same accross the board .. just let different things open

So say next month we go to tier 3 as a nation

Try and move to tier 2 by may

Tier 1 by the summer

By then everyone vaccinated and return to "normal"

Not ideal but got to be better than nothing
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that'd go down well, for most they just want a bit of socialisation with people and so telling them that they're in Tier 3 until May really doesn't change their lives much from being in lockdown now.


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## larmen (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd like to see us return to the tiers but slightly different.. tier level the same accross the board .. just let different things open

So say next month we go to tier 3 as a nation
		
Click to expand...

I think you are right and it needs a nation approach. Someone ‘over there’ might not follow restrictions as much if someome ‘elsewhere’ already has more freedoms. National lockdown brought the numbers down, regional restrictions let them go up.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 16, 2021)

Wife and Son just had first vaccine (pfizer) Huge shout out to the Dr’s, Nurse and volunteers at the Med Centre, very efficient, Thank you all.👍🏻


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 16, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			A couple of examples of a total lack of logic yesterday.

2. At Heathrow, arrivals from "red zone" queueing up side by side with those not from the red zone. Massive risk of cross-contamination. Surely it would have been simple to have one queue for red zone and one queue for everyone else?
		
Click to expand...

And the fact that people are flying in from Brazil via Madrid. A couple interviewed yesterday said that they flew from Brazil to Madrid and sat next to people in the airport, queued up with them etc and then flew in to Heathrow. At Heathrow they were separated and taken to the hotel. Again a massive risk of cross contamination.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

larmen said:



			I think you are right and it needs a nation approach. Someone ‘over there’ might not follow restrictions as much if someome ‘elsewhere’ already has more freedoms. National lockdown brought the numbers down, regional restrictions let them go up.
		
Click to expand...

I have to agree with that. I think we should come out of this lockdown as a nation. I know that under the tiering system, there was always a question at the back of my mind about why I could not do something and yet people less than 10 miles down the road in Rutland could. That made compliance feel harder. There were also no end of instances of people going from neighbouring South Kesteven and Leicestershire into Rutland to use pubs and restaurants.


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Long Covid is a slight concern, agreed. Using me as an example. I've already had it, felt crap for months. Back to normal now. How can getting it again effect me long term?

In regards to hospitalisation stays. 103 under 44's admitted to hospital due to covid, nationwide is the highest weekly toll this year. Thanks to @Hobbit 's dataset I didn't know existed! Not entirely sure, but proportionally that's nothing compared to other causes I'd imagine? So not sure that's a reasonable concern.

Must add, stayed at Whipps Cross ICU for a bit, everyone was absolutely fantastic and treated me amazingly. Not the norm in the slightest, but it doesn't have to be traumatic!
		
Click to expand...

You keep choosing different age cut-offs for your pieces of data. That always suggests selection of data to suit the argument. 

Covid is a systemic inflammatory condition. It can cause subclinical effects in major organs from the brain to the kidneys and some of these effects do not cause immediate problems. I expect that in a year or two we will start to see an increase in cases of liver fibrosis, renal impairment and heart failure amongst younger than usual people. There are reports of increased numbers of children with Type I Diabetes due to pancreatic damage. One case series in the US looked at college athletes affected in an outbreak and myocardial (heart) abnomrlaiites were found in almost of those examined. There is a lot of bad stuff being stored up and we need to avoid people getting this nasty disease unnecessarily.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure that'd go down well, for most they just want a bit of socialisation with people and so telling them that they're in Tier 3 until May really doesn't change their lives much from being in lockdown now.
		
Click to expand...

It does tho

The rule of six outside returns

Golf returns 

Gyms and pools open

Giving people exercise and up to 6 outside gives return of bit of socialising

Tier 2 in may when weather turns gets booze with a proper meal in a pub 

Then tier 1 gets rule of 6 inside but with being summer less chance of people being inside 

Gives the gov chance to get everyone jabbed


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## DanFST (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You keep choosing different age cut-offs for your pieces of data. That always suggests selection of data to suit the argument.

Covid is a systemic inflammatory condition. It can cause subclinical effects in major organs from the brain to the kidneys and some of these effects do not cause immediate problems. I expect that in a year or two we will start to see an increase in cases of liver fibrosis, renal impairment and heart failure amongst younger than usual people. There are reports of increased numbers of children with Type I Diabetes due to pancreatic damage. One case series in the US looked at college athletes affected in an outbreak and myocardial (heart) abnomrlaiites were found in almost of those examined. There is a lot of bad stuff being stored up and we need to avoid people getting this nasty disease unnecessarily.
		
Click to expand...

I edited the above post. No agenda with the data boundaries. It's just nothing is standardised! I do think the Gov website using 18-64 is disingenuous however. 

So i'm already screwed then! Uplifting morning.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			We lockdown to protect everybody. Just because you are young, doesn't mean you want some of the nasty effects of Covid. It isn't over when the symptoms stop. Covid has a few time bombs available.
		
Click to expand...

Any info on the threat of long COVID, in younger patients? I hear it spoken about, there is some anecdotal info but nothing specific. Speaking as someone whose had it. albeit a mild version, luckily I didn’t get the South African super version. 
I don’t mean to belittle long COVID but is there enough proof it exists in enough cases to justify general measures?


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			You might have 50-60 years of holidays to come your way. Someone who is 65 will have a whole lot less. Begrudging them a few decent holidays whilst they're still fit enough seems awfully...  petulant?
		
Click to expand...

 the narrative does change very quickly !


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			You might have 50-60 years of holidays to come your way. Someone who is 65 will have a whole lot less. Begrudging them a few decent holidays whilst they're still fit enough seems awfully...  petulant?
		
Click to expand...

Tbh I don't begrudge them a holiday because of their age. I am strongly against anyone taking a holiday this year abroad

Id like to see unessential international travel banned even after lockdown until more of the world is vaccinated 

Rather than just start moving people round again which is how the whole thing started.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			You might have 50-60 years of holidays to come your way. Someone who is 65 will have a whole lot less. Begrudging them a few decent holidays whilst they're still fit enough seems awfully...  petulant?
		
Click to expand...

Someone who is 65yrs will have had a shed load of holidays so could they not just stay home for a year until we can all go away. It can work both ways.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure that'd go down well, for most they just want a bit of socialisation with people and so telling them that they're in Tier 3 until May really doesn't change their lives much from being in lockdown now.
		
Click to expand...

I have to agree with that. Having been in tier 3 and above since the end of October, it does make very little difference for most people. Even with better weather, the restriction on meeting outside having to be in public rather than in the garden limits what people can do and golf and gyms really do not impact on a massive number of people (OK I will be happy to have the gym back). Until people can meet others on their own property (outside to start with) we are still in lockdown.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Tbh I don't begrudge them a holiday because of their age. I am strongly against anyone taking a holiday this year abroad

Id like to see unessential international travel banned even after lockdown until more of the world is vaccinated

Rather than just start moving people round again which is how the whole thing started.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I don't think there should really be an argument about who should/shouldn't be allowed to travel. Given the situation and the threat of a mutation which could put us back to square one, I see international travel as being only a necessity for the rest of this year.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Tbh I don't begrudge them a holiday because of their age. I am strongly against anyone taking a holiday this year abroad

Id like to see unessential international travel banned even after lockdown until more of the world is vaccinated

Rather than just start moving people round again which is how the whole thing started.
		
Click to expand...

Again, another view I agree with. As many have stated on here, the idea is to protect everyone. Furthermore, the dangers of long covid have been quite rightly mentioned a great deal on here. As such, until it is clear about the full impact of vaccination on transmission (and that is without considering new strains) it is for the older generation to help protect the younger generation by not travelling.


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## bobmac (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Any info on the threat of long COVID, in younger patients? I hear it spoken about, there is some anecdotal info but nothing specific. Speaking as someone whose had it. albeit a mild version, luckily I didn’t get the South African super version.
I don’t mean to belittle long COVID but is there enough proof it exists in enough cases to justify general measures?
		
Click to expand...

You can either believe that long Covid doesn't affect young people until there's proof to show it does,
Or
You can believe that long Covid does affect young people untill there's proof to show it doesn't.
I know which way I'd go


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Again, another view I agree with. As many have stated on here, the idea is to protect everyone. Furthermore, the dangers of long covid have been quite rightly mentioned a great deal on here. As such, until it is clear about the full impact of vaccination on transmission (and that is without considering new strains) it is for the older generation to help protect the younger generation by not travelling.
		
Click to expand...

It's amazing different people's attuide to it. Someone I know is due the jab because he a carer. He said once he done to hell with the mask and restrictions 

I'm opposite end. I had my jab at the weekend. Once I'm fully vaccinated I will still be social distancing and wearing my mask

If anything it's a great excuse to be anti social 😜


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You can either believe that long Covid doesn't affect young people until there's proof to show it does,
Or
You can believe that long Covid does affect young people untill there's proof to show it doesn't.
I know which way I'd go
		
Click to expand...

You could say that about anything though. Didn’t think you believed in faith. I’m not denying it’s existence, just it’s prevalence.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Any info on the threat of long COVID, in younger patients? I hear it spoken about, there is some anecdotal info but nothing specific. Speaking as someone whose had it. albeit a mild version, luckily I didn’t get the South African super version. 
I don’t mean to belittle long COVID but is there enough proof it exists in enough cases to justify general measures?
		
Click to expand...

The only person I know with long covid is 27 and ex military. Was fit as a fiddle 

Not so much now


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Any info on the threat of long COVID, in younger patients? I hear it spoken about, there is some anecdotal info but nothing specific. Speaking as someone whose had it. albeit a mild version, luckily I didn’t get the South African super version.
I don’t mean to belittle long COVID but is there enough proof it exists in enough cases to justify general measures?
		
Click to expand...

It definitely exists, and many of the people that have it have objective evidence of damage caused. Long Covid occurs in younger people as well as older. Post-viral phenomena are well recognised, with some vague but troubling features. Fatigue and mood and cognitive changes are common, but damage to kidneys, liver, heart and vasculature also occur with Covid. It is certainly reason enough for younger people to be vaccinated, in my opinion.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2021)

Whilst the affects of long Covid will be looked into as we go through the months I don’t believe it is that data they are looking at in regards the relaxation of restrictions- listening to the report this morning it’s based mainly on 

Vaccine data
Deaths 
Cases
Hospital admissions 

Currently those four main areas are all moving in the right direction for restrictions to be relaxed 

But social distancing measures will Imo be in place for the foreseeable future and maybe into next year 

As for Holidays

People will need to get away and relax - but I don’t believe it should be foreign holidays - UK only for us all until next year 

People don’t need to go abroad for a holiday to relax 

There is nothing annoying right now than someone complaining that they are having to quarantine for 10 days when they come back from Dubai etc - tough you shouldn’t have taken the risk to go for a jolly in the sun during a world wide pandemic


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You can either believe that long Covid doesn't affect young people until there's proof to show it does,
Or
You can believe that long Covid does affect young people untill there's proof to show it doesn't.
I know which way I'd go
		
Click to expand...

Playing Devil's Advocate, we only hear about the worst cases of long Covid, it is still going to be a tiny minority of those who have caught Covid (knowingly or not) and have no ill affects.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's amazing different people's attuide to it. Someone I know is due the jab because he a carer. He said once he done to hell with the mask and restrictions

I'm opposite end. I had my jab at the weekend. Once I'm fully vaccinated I will still be social distancing and wearing my mask

If anything it's a great excuse to be anti social 😜
		
Click to expand...

It is an odd one. I have friends who have been vaccinated who now thing the rules don't apply, I have friends who still follow the rules but find it more frustrating as they see themselves as safe now and I have friends who are still very much in favour of us all coming out of this together. All I know is that I am not going to see a jab for a while, I am overweight so it could hit me hard if I did get it and so I am going to be playing Hide and Seek with Covid for a while yet.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The only person I know with long covid is 27 and ex military. Was fit as a fiddle

Not so much now
		
Click to expand...

Yep. Again not denying its existence. I’m sure in some cases it’s really unpleasant. It’s a dangerous precedent to lockdown on a maybe!! You’d be better off banning smoking & drinking if long term health was a governmental consideration


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It definitely exists, and many of the people that have it have objective evidence of damage caused. Long Covid occurs in younger people as well as older. Post-viral phenomena are well recognised, with some vague but troubling features. Fatigue and mood and cognitive changes are common, but damage to kidneys, liver, heart and vasculature also occur with Covid. It is certainly reason enough for younger people to be vaccinated, in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

My mood has definitely changed, I’m a proper grumpy bugger now. Long COVID or middle age?


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I edited the above post. No agenda with the data boundaries. It's just nothing is standardised! I do think the Gov website using 18-64 is disingenuous however.

So i'm already screwed then! Uplifting morning. 

Click to expand...

No, you aren't screwed. But I think that the public needs a more nuanced view of the harm of the virus. It started off as killing old crumblies in nursing homes, but as time has gone on, we have seen more effects in younger people and some of those who have appeared to recover. A prudent approach would be to treat this thing as being very harmful and focus on getting as many people as possible through unharmed. 

It is likely that there will be waves of Covid over the next few years, but as well as immunity to vaccinated strains, we will gradually acquire a broader immunity to new versions, and reach an equilibrium a bit like flu where most people are not really affected any more, and only really the older age groups and those with certain predispositions are vulnerable. Those people will need annual vaccinations and most younger people probably won't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And the fact that people are flying in from Brazil via Madrid. A couple interviewed yesterday said that they flew from Brazil to Madrid and sat next to people in the airport, queued up with them etc and then flew in to Heathrow. At Heathrow they were separated and taken to the hotel. Again a massive risk of cross contamination.
		
Click to expand...

Chuck into the mix the totally expected situation when there is the difference between Scotland and England in the quarantining policy - with flight yesterday from Istanbul to Edinburgh.  50-60 on the flight - until they discovered that they'd have to go into hotel quarantine when they got to Scotland - and the flight left with half doz. on board.  I guess it doesn't take a genius to work out that most reckoned that they'd rather just dump the Edinburgh flight; get one into an airport in England - then train/bus or hire a car to drive from England to Edinburgh.


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			My mood has definitely changed, I’m a proper grumpy bugger now. Long COVID or middle age?
		
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Hard to say. There is a lot around to be grumpy about right now. Check again in summer when the weather is nicer and some of the Covid strain has eased.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			It is an odd one. I have friends who have been vaccinated who now thing the rules don't apply, I have friends who still follow the rules but find it more frustrating as they see themselves as safe now and I have friends who are still very much in favour of us all coming out of this together. All I know is that I am not going to see a jab for a while, I am overweight so it could hit me hard if I did get it and so I am going to be playing Hide and Seek with Covid for a while yet.
		
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My nan has had both jabs (both her and grandad) soon as they were done they said we can see you now

I'm like no nan 

My dad is due for jab Thursday 

I joked on the family whatapp that me and him can go down the harvester whilst mum and my sister can wait at home .. (they not been called) he said "go out? Not a chance" lol not even joking 

It will take me a while to even want to get back to " normal"


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Any info on the threat of long COVID, in younger patients? I hear it spoken about, there is some anecdotal info but nothing specific. Speaking as someone whose had it. albeit a mild version, luckily I didn’t get the South African super version.
I don’t mean to belittle long COVID but is there enough proof it exists in enough cases to justify general measures?
		
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No doubt you have now seen post 16309.  That seems clear to me. 
A lawyer might say it isn't 'proof', but then again, I bet he wouldn't want a dose just to prove his assertion 😀


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Chuck into the mix the totally expected situation when there is the difference between Scotland and England in the quarantining policy - with flight yesterday from Istanbul to Edinburgh.  50-60 on the flight - until they discovered that they'd have to go into hotel quarantine when they got to Scotland - and the flight left with half doz. on board.  I guess it doesn't take a genius to work out that most reckoned that they'd rather just dump the Edinburgh flight; get one into an airport in England - then train/bus or hire a car to drive from England to Edinburgh.
		
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Plus as previously mentioned the connecting flight via somewhere in the common travel area meaning they can avoid hotel quarantine.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No doubt you have now seen post 16309.  That seems clear to me.
A lawyer might say it isn't 'proof', but then again, I bet he wouldn't want a dose just to prove his assertion 😀
		
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No you wouldn’t wish the serious side effects/symptoms on anyone. It’s probably a discussion for another day but I genuinely worry how we move on. We, as a society, have become paralysed by the fear not the reality. How do we get over this now we are so risk adverse?


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2021)

larmen said:



			Someone that had 45 years of holidaying can go for more, and someone who only had 10 doesn’t get a chance to catch up?

It’s a 2 way street, isn’t it?
		
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road2ruin said:



			Someone who is 65yrs will have had a shed load of holidays so could they not just stay home for a year until we can all go away. It can work both ways.
		
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Leftitshort said:



			the narrative does change very quickly !
		
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 ????

For a bit of clarity, my point is I don't care who goes on holiday. I don't care whether they're 20 or 40 or 70. I don't care when they go. And I don't care where they go. I genuinely don't care. All I care about is its done safely.

As for the "its not fair" brigade, do yourself a favour and grow up. The image you portray is of a petulant teenager stamping your foot.




pauljames87 said:



			Tbh I don't begrudge them a holiday because of their age. I am strongly against anyone taking a holiday this year abroad

Id like to see unessential international travel banned even after lockdown until more of the world is vaccinated

Rather than just start moving people round again which is how the whole thing started.
		
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Perfect answer.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 16, 2021)

Sometimes we only see what we have and not what we don’t have.

I spoke to a pal in Italy yesterday. She is nearly 70. I asked when she is due to have her vaccine. She started laughing and said
 “ that’s a shit joke”. She went onto say that it’s pissed a fair few folk off where she lives ( north of Milan) to see how well the vaccine roll out is doing in the UK and not so well in Italy/ the EU.
Seems to me were not doing a bad job compared to others. I think a little more patience is required on our behalf before we can make decisions about “ laying up” or going for the green.
She also sent me a txt, her neighbour popped round this morning to tell her that she was talking to a nurse who looked after Alfredo, her husband. She remembered Alfredo well, so well that she and the rest of the staff were astonished that he had recovered from Covid. They said it was a miracle.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			????

For a bit of clarity, my point is I don't care who goes on holiday. I don't care whether they're 20 or 40 or 70. I don't care when they go. And I don't care where they go. I genuinely don't care. All I care about is its done safely.

As for the "its not fair" brigade, do yourself a favour and grow up. The image you portray is of a petulant teenager stamping your foot.




Perfect answer.
		
Click to expand...

🤣🤣🤣🤣so if we object to lockdown we’re selfish. If we point out hypocrisy we’re children. Carry on👍👍👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			🤣🤣🤣🤣so if we object to lockdown we’re selfish. If we point out hypocrisy we’re children. Carry on👍👍👍
		
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You are not dealing with facts though, it’s all what ifs, none of us know what the future travel/holiday/tier system will be.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			You are not dealing with facts though, it’s all what ifs, none of us know what the future travel/holiday/tier system will be.
		
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No I’m not dealing with facts. If this thread was about facts it would be about 2 pages long🤣🤣🤣🤣. Just exploring the depth of some entitlement


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Someone who is 65yrs will have had a shed load of holidays so could they not just stay home for a year until we can all go away. It can work both ways.
		
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And them oldies going away now might provide enough income to keep the hotels & resorts going until the younger people can go.  It can work both ways.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			No I’m not dealing with facts. If this thread was about facts it would be about 2 pages long🤣🤣🤣🤣. Just exploring the depth of some entitlement
		
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People discussing who can or cannot go on holiday or return to normality sooner than others is pure speculation.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			No you wouldn’t wish the serious side effects/symptoms on anyone. It’s probably a discussion for another day but I genuinely worry how we move on. We, as a society, have become paralysed by the fear not the reality. How do we get over this now we are so risk adverse?
		
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Until every single person in the UK has been vaccinated we should stay put. 

Once that is done, a discussion is needed if its time for everyone to wear helmets when leaving the home. 

👍


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

We must be getting closer to some positive news, some potential relaxing of restrictions as it is now being reported that there is a new scary, mutation!! We now have a Nigerian variant!! Apparently another than is (potentially) more resilient to the vaccines.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Until every single person in the UK has been vaccinated we should stay put.

Once that is done, a discussion is needed if its time for everyone to wear helmets when leaving the home.

👍
		
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 gonna go for a full sumo suit. You can’t be too careful.


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## DanFST (Feb 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			As for the "its not fair" brigade, do yourself a favour and grow up. The image you portray is of a petulant teenager stamping your foot.
		
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The hypocrisy. If an age discriminatory approach is taken now on what you can/can't do. Compliance if the brown hits the fan will be almost non existent in those not at high risk.

The facts are:

- Under 40's would be HIGHLY unlikely to die from covid. *709* under 40's have died with deaths involving covid since the the start of 2020. Bare in mind 1700+ die in road traffic accidents in the UK a year.
- Under 40's are HIGHLY unlikely to be hospitalised, causing strain on the NHS. But young people have died and had there lives impacted due to hospitals being unable to function due to those more at risk straining the system.
- Under 45's have been financially and psychologically damaged disproportionality. Study here.
- Someone in the high risk groups is still *FAR* more likely to be hospitalised or die related to covid *after being vaccinated *compared to an under 40.
- We are last in line to receive the vaccine.

Yes there is the effects of Long term covid as Ethan says, but it's unknown at the moment. And it applies to all, even those vaccinated. I don't think anyone should be going anywhere until everyone is vaccinated and we have a better idea how it works.



Lilyhawk said:



			Until every single person in the UK has been vaccinated we should stay put.
		
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Hopefully you meant until everyone is offered one. Otherwise there will be that one guy filibusting and refusing! The rest of the UK with passports in hand


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			People discussing who can or cannot go on holiday or return to normality sooner than others is pure speculation.

Click to expand...

Agreed. As is 90% of this forum. If you wanted facts, it would be @Ethan in an echo chamber


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			As for the "its not fair" brigade, do yourself a favour and grow up. The image you portray is of a petulant teenager stamping your foot.
		
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The hypocrisy!! All we've heard over the last 12 months is how the young have to protect the old and the vulnerable and now those with a sniff of a vaccine want the freedoms that could be afforded with it! I assume you'll remember that should be have to go back into lockdown where the young refuse based on the actions of the older generation?! There has to be a level playing field otherwise how can you expect people to follow any further guidance. Also, if you do start to allow those with vaccine passports more freedom all you are doing is encouraging a black market to spring up.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The hypocrisy!! All we've heard over the last 12 months is how the young have to protect the old and the vulnerable and now those with a sniff of a vaccine want the freedoms that could be afforded with it! I assume you'll remember that should be have to go back into lockdown where the young refuse based on the actions of the older generation?! There has to be a level playing field otherwise how can you expect people to follow any further guidance. Also, if you do start to allow those with vaccine passports more freedom all you are doing is encouraging a black market to spring up.
		
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My concern would be actual civil unrest. We saw all of the food and toilet roll hoarders in lockdown one. can you imagine how people with that selfish mentality would react if you suddenly said that those who had been vaccinated were allowed additional freedoms. You would have mobs outside the vaccination stations and call after call to GP surgeries from these people demanding a jab so as they can have their 2 weeks abroad. People are currently being very patient and respecting the order in which people are being vaccinated, that could quickly go out the window.


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## ger147 (Feb 16, 2021)

The whole issue of vaccine passports/certificates, whether they will be required and whether foreign travel will be allowed off the back of it etc. is something largely beyond the control of the UK government.  What Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. decide to implement re. whether they allow foreign visitors or not, from which countries, if evidence of a vaccine is required etc. is a matter for those countries to decide for themselves.  If they decide to only allow UK visitors who can provide evidence of a Covid-19 vaccine, I'm not sure what a protest march to Trafalgar Square would achieve.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

People are assuming we can't unlock fully until the whole population has been vaccd but that isn't true. Chris Whitty himself said once we get to rougly 50% of the adult population we've won (assuming no nasty resistant variants pop up), so once we hit that figure there's no reason for having restriction differences in vaccinated/ non vaccinated people


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2021)

ger147 said:



			The whole issue of vaccine passports/certificates, whether they will be required and whether foreign travel will be allowed off the back of it etc. is something largely beyond the control of the UK government.  What Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. decide to implement re. whether they allow foreign visitors or not, from which countries, if evidence of a vaccine is required etc. is a matter for those countries to decide for themselves.  If they decide to only allow UK visitors who can provide evidence of a Covid-19 vaccine, I'm not sure what a protest march to Trafalgar Square would achieve.
		
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For me there is a difference between an international vaccine passport and a national one. An international one is almost certain to be needed as other countries will demand it, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The ill feeling will be if suddenly bars/pubs etc are opened up to those with one whilst those who cannot get one are told they cannot enter. That is where the problems will start.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

ger147 said:



			The whole issue of vaccine passports/certificates, whether they will be required and whether foreign travel will be allowed off the back of it etc. is something largely beyond the control of the UK government.  What Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. decide to implement re. whether they allow foreign visitors or not, from which countries, if evidence of a vaccine is required etc. is a matter for those countries to decide for themselves.  If they decide to only allow UK visitors who can provide evidence of a Covid-19 vaccine, I'm not sure what a protest march to Trafalgar Square would achieve.
		
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The element of control that we have is whether non essential foreign travel is permitted. If you allow foreign travel then you have potentially created the 2 tier system between those vaccinated and those not. Do you allow foreign travel with the potentially increased risk and the uproar it will cause for those not having been vaccinated but potentially save much of the travel and airline industry or to you keep the country locked down internally, avoid the uproar and promote spending at UK businesses. Not an easy call but I would go for the latter.


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## ger147 (Feb 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For me there is a difference between an international vaccine passport and a national one. An international one is almost certain to be needed as other countries will demand it, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. The ill feeling will be if suddenly bars/pubs etc are opened up to those with one whilst those who cannot get one are told they cannot enter. That is where the problems will start.
		
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A passport to get into Wetherspoons?  There are a million reasons for me not to go near a Wetherspoons, not having a Covid-19 vaccine isn't in the top 100...


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## ger147 (Feb 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			The element of control that we have is whether non essential foreign travel is permitted. If you allow foreign travel then you have potentially created the 2 tier system between those vaccinated and those not. Do you allow foreign travel with the potentially increased risk and the uproar it will cause for those not having been vaccinated but potentially save much of the travel and airline industry or to you keep the country locked down internally, avoid the uproar and promote spending at UK businesses. Not an easy call but I would go for the latter.
		
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There isn't a cat in hell's chance of the UK border being locked down until the whole UK population is vaccinated, IMO of course.  Other opinions are available...


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 16, 2021)

Does it not make sense to allow the oldies to go on holiday once they're vaccinated which would then leave holidays later in the year for the younger age groups once they've been done? Otherwise there will be an announcement that foreign holidays will be allowed from XX date and everyone will be trying to book the same few weeks and prices will rocket.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does it not make sense to allow the oldies to go on holiday once they're vaccinated which would then leave holidays later in the year for the younger age groups once they've been done? Otherwise there will be an announcement that foreign holidays will be allowed from XX date and everyone will be trying to book the same few weeks and prices will rocket.
		
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As previously mentioned, I don’t think it matters what the UK says, regardless of vaccine or not, it’ll be down to the receiving Country imo.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			As previously mentioned, I don’t think it matters what the UK says, regardless of vaccine or not, it’ll be down to the receiving Country imo.
		
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I appreciate that but some are suggesting that our borders remain closed until everyone has been vaccinated and has an equal right to go on holiday.


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## ger147 (Feb 16, 2021)

Latest update in Scotland is limited school return to go ahead starting on Monday 22nd Feb as planned.

No other restrictions being lifted for now and holidays got a mention, the advice being not to book any foreign or UK holidays for Easter as highly likely they will not be allowed by then.


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 16, 2021)

This could easily have gone into random irritations but it is heartbreaking.

2 guys one from Liverpool the other from Leicester came to Kirkstone pass in The Lake District last week to camp overnight. They got into difficulties and Patterdale Mountain Rescue were called out. An experienced rescuer fell 500 feet whilst carrying out his rescue. The 2 guys were fined £200 each.

The rescuer has damaged his spinal cord and is unlikely to ever walk again. A fund has been set up to support him.

Words fail me


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 16, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			This could easily have gone into random irritations but it is heartbreaking.

2 guys one from Liverpool the other from Leicester came to Kirkstone pass in The Lake District last week to camp overnight. They got into difficulties and Patterdale Mountain Rescue were called out. An experienced rescuer fell 500 feet whilst carrying out his rescue. The 2 guys were fined £200 each.

The rescuer has damaged his spinal cord and is unlikely to ever walk again. A fund has been set up to support him.

Words fail me
		
Click to expand...

In these cases they should foot the cost of the rescue.
And like most things in life now ( even golf) .
Any pass time where you may have to be rescued you should be insured.
Especially going up mountains.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I appreciate that but some are suggesting that our borders remain closed until everyone has been vaccinated and has an equal right to go on holiday.
		
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That’s impractical though, how would someone know if an individual is going on holiday or travelling for work if they’ve booked a flight or they drive a car on a ferry etc, way, way too many loopholes for that to be possible, we’ve already got more holes than a sieve.


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## Italian outcast (Feb 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Does it not make sense to allow the oldies to go on holiday once they're vaccinated which would then leave holidays later in the year for the younger age groups once they've been done? Otherwise there will be an announcement that foreign holidays will be allowed from XX date and everyone will be trying to book the same few weeks and prices will rocket.
		
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A good idea - can also make up for any shortfall in inane daily metrics...

72% of people aged 65-74 years have been on their holidays (exceeding the initial target )
...Of these, most (53%) went to Benidorm while the Algarve (23%) and Tenerife (8%) also exceeded expected numbers of UK personal ambassadors


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## rudebhoy (Feb 16, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			This could easily have gone into random irritations but it is heartbreaking.

2 guys one from Liverpool the other from Leicester came to Kirkstone pass in The Lake District last week to camp overnight. They got into difficulties and Patterdale Mountain Rescue were called out. An experienced rescuer fell 500 feet whilst carrying out his rescue. The 2 guys were fined £200 each.

The rescuer has damaged his spinal cord and is unlikely to ever walk again. A fund has been set up to support him.

Words fail me
		
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They should have got 6 months in jail,  not a £200 fine.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

"But as a payoff for the schools going back, she warned today that foreign holidays are probably ruled out this year. "

Well said Nicola

I hope we follow Monday


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			"But as a payoff for the schools going back, she warned today that foreign holidays are probably ruled out this year. "

Well said Nicola

I hope we follow Monday
		
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I do wish our esteemed leaders would grow up, pit their differences aside and agree to agree about uk wide restrictions.
To say holidays are out this year is a ridiculous statement given the vaccine roll out etc. If englend say its ok to go abroad (and as has been pointed out it will be more down to the receiving country) then whats to stop any Scots who have been jabbed travelling down to Newcastle and flying from there?

Mod note: this post is about holiday restrictions,  not politics. Oops, sorry, mentioned the p word by accident...


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I do wish our esteemed leaders would grow up, pit their differences aside and agree to agree about uk wide restrictions.
To say holidays are out this year is a ridiculous statement given the vaccine roll out etc. If englend say its ok to go abroad (and as has been pointed out it will be more down to the receiving country) then whats to stop any Scots who have been jabbed travelling down to Newcastle and flying from there?

Mod note: this post is about holiday restrictions,  not politics. Oops, sorry, mentioned the p word by accident...
		
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UK vaccinated not the world

Foreign holidays need banning in 2021


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

My kids are desperate to go away on holiday, we didn't go away anywhere last summer and I think this summer looks dodgy too. The Govt is clearly being a bit more cautious now, but at some point, maybe when the the 50y+ are all vacc'd they will probably say something more emollient to partly satisfy the holiday operators, and there will be a crush and massive price rise for the limited availability. But by that time, I expect most of the typical destinations will have vacc certification procedures in place for inbound.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361707673943736323
The lowest level of new cases on a Tuesday since September 

Level of deaths down 24% from last Tuesday


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			UK vaccinated not the world

Foreign holidays need banning in 2021
		
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That’s impossible though, simply stating you can’t go on a foreign holiday won’t stop people going.

Here’s the list as of yesterday from around the World of were is open and you can to to now.

https://www.wanderlust.co.uk/conten...ESAAA.YAAAAAAAAAAA.1.QjY0v9UMqYSBhGAhdjRltA==


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			My kids are desperate to go away on holiday, we didn't go away anywhere last summer and I think this summer looks dodgy too. The Govt is clearly being a bit more cautious now, but at some point, maybe when the the 50y+ are all vacc'd they will probably say something more emollient to partly satisfy the holiday operators, and there will be a crush and massive price rise for the limited availability. But by that time, I expect most of the typical destinations will have vacc certification procedures in place for inbound.
		
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I think that this is where there is going to be the problem. Countries may, quite rightly, want vaccine certification but I suspect that a significant majority of people with families are not going to fall into the over 50 category and so family holidays may well be off the cards this year. Then there is the question of children. They may not get a serious illness with covid but I am sure that they can spread it and they will not be getting vaccinated for quite a while, if at all. Does that mean kids cannot travel. This could open up a while new can of worms.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			UK vaccinated not the world

Foreign holidays need banning in 2021
		
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Which leads to even more companies going under and the associated job losses, completely unnecessarily


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			That’s impossible though, simply stating you can’t go on a foreign holiday won’t stop people going.

Here’s the list as of yesterday from around the World of were is open and you can to to now.

https://www.wanderlust.co.uk/conten...ESAAA.YAAAAAAAAAAA.1.QjY0v9UMqYSBhGAhdjRltA==

Click to expand...

Only thing I'll add say the Uk is fully done 

Kids won't be? Our little snot bags could start a 3rd wave


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Which leads to even more companies going under and the associated job losses, completely unnecessarily
		
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Im sure they would rather more customers to sell to next year 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Only thing I'll add say the Uk is fully done

Kids won't be? Our little snot bags could start a 3rd wave
		
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And without sounding “jack” that’s still down to other Countries to decide who comes in.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Im sure they would rather more customers to sell to next year 👍
		
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Doesnt matter how many customers they have if they're already out of business...


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361707673943736323
The lowest level of new cases on a Tuesday since September

Level of deaths down 24% from last Tuesday
		
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You make it sound so wonderful.....


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Doesnt matter how many customers they have if they're already out of business...
		
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But what does it say about us as a nation that we can go through a year of mess .. made worse by international travel and big gatherings .. when people have lost jobs and have less money 

Yet the first thing we want to do is spend money to go on holiday and gather down the pub in confined numbers 

Isn't insanity trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results?


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## hovis (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Only thing I'll add say the Uk is fully done

Kids won't be? Our little snot bags could start a 3rd wave
		
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Who are the kids going to spread it to if we're all vacinated?


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I think that this is where there is going to be the problem. Countries may, quite rightly, want vaccine certification but I suspect that a significant majority of people with families are not going to fall into the over 50 category and so family holidays may well be off the cards this year. Then there is the question of children. They may not get a serious illness with covid but I am sure that they can spread it and they will not be getting vaccinated for quite a while, if at all. Does that mean kids cannot travel. This could open up a while new can of worms.
		
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None of the vaccines are currently approved for use in children, although trials are ongoing. It appears that with regard to transmissibility, teenagers behave like young adults but younger children are less of a transmission risk. None of the kids in Spain or Portugal will be vacc'd either. I could se a scenario where kids are exempted, but I don't see how young adults can be likewise exempted.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

hovis said:



			Who are the kids going to spread it to if we're all vacinated?
		
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The UK may have been done but everywhere we travel won't be fully done

So we can take out some locals whilst we soak up the sun


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But what does it say about us as a nation that we can go through a year of mess .. made worse by international travel and big gatherings .. when people have lost jobs and have less money

Yet the first thing we want to do is spend money to go on holiday and gather down the pub in confined numbers

Isn't insanity trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
		
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I think that is a little harsh. It is a natural human behaviour to want to return to normality and the annual holiday is a highlight for many. I wouldn't be critical of people who want to go on holiday when allowed to do so, but I would be very critical of those who go even when advised not to (but not prevented).


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## hovis (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The UK may have been done but everywhere we travel won't be fully done

So we can take out some locals whilst we soak up the sun
		
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So you're going to sit at home and refrain from going abroad until you hear that Pedro and his family have had the vacine?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2021)

saving_par said:



			You make it sound so wonderful.....
		
Click to expand...

Do i ?

Or is just showing that things are improving and trying to be more positive in the face of the constant negativity that gets published on a daily basis.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think that is a little harsh. It is a natural human behaviour to want to return to normality and the annual holiday is a highlight for many. I wouldn't be critical of people who want to go on holiday when allowed to do so, but I would be very critical of those who go even when advised not to (but not prevented).
		
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I just think the whole world needs a shake up

Maybe it's the bill gates mind control chip working it's way through me but climate change is the next biggest issue with got after covid and all we care about is jetting off 

Plus surely the UK itself could use with a boost so holiday internally for a year


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## azazel (Feb 16, 2021)

hovis said:



			So you're going to sit at home and refrain from going abroad until you hear that Pedro and his family have had the vacine?
		
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If you've any consideration for others - whether their name is Pedro, Pierre or just plan Peter - then that's exactly what you should do.


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## hovis (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I just think the whole world needs a shake up

Maybe it's the bill gates mind control chip working it's way through me but climate change is the next biggest issue with got after covid and all we care about is jetting off

Plus surely the UK itself could use with a boost so holiday internally for a year
		
Click to expand...

Prices have gone up by 300% according to a previous post.  Also, there's 66 million of us.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The UK may have been done but everywhere we travel won't be fully done

So we can take out some locals whilst we soak up the sun
		
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And if its proven, as looks likely, that the vacc prevents transmission as well as contraction?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			And if its proven, as looks likely, that the vacc prevents transmission as well as contraction?
		
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It's also proven so far isn't it that the vaccine isn't as effective against the new strains? So what then


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

hovis said:



			Prices have gone up by 300% according to a previous post.  Also, there's 66 million of us.
		
Click to expand...

How many of those 66 go away anyways?


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## hovis (Feb 16, 2021)

azazel said:



			If you've any consideration for others - whether their name is Pedro, Pierre or just plan Peter - then that's exactly what you should do.
		
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It isn't up to me to consider Pedro the waiter when contemplating my holiday.  I leave that responsibility upto the countries politicians and scientists.  If they allow it then thats fine by me.   At some point you have to take your arm bands off and jump in because covid is never going away.   If you're going to wait until a foreign government anounce they have vacinated 100% of their residents then you are never going abroad.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			None of the vaccines are currently approved for use in children, although trials are ongoing. It appears that with regard to transmissibility, teenagers behave like young adults but younger children are less of a transmission risk. None of the kids in Spain or Portugal will be vacc'd either. I could se a scenario where kids are exempted, but I don't see how young adults can be likewise exempted.
		
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That is interesting. Will be interesting to see how this pans out as, for example, my brother is under 50 with a 16 year old son. Neither of them will see a vaccine for a while and so will they be confined to the UK or to countries that do not impose a vaccine requirement. Guessing some countries may follow the current 'standard' which appears to be clear test at least 72 hours before departure and a clear test to return (certainly in my location of choice, Antigua, they are doing return tests on the resorts).


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's also proven so far isn't it that the vaccine isn't as effective against the new strains? So what then
		
Click to expand...

Then we have to decide when enough is enough. Face it, covid isnt going away, probably ever. So we get to a point where we do what we can to mitigate risk but be able to live a fairly normal life, or stay locked up indefinitely, destroying any economy and eventually all starving to death long before covid does it


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			And if its proven, as looks likely, that the vacc prevents transmission as well as contraction?
		
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People do seem to forget or pretend that the vaccine has not proven to prevent transmission yet. Only proven to prevent serious illness like a paracetamol for a headache. So the idea of a passport or whether you can go round your mates for a game of scrabble or twister or on holiday seems pre mature.


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## hovis (Feb 16, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			People do seem to forget or pretend that the vaccine has not proven to prevent transmission yet. Only proven to prevent serious illness like a paracetamol for a headache. So the idea of a passport or whether you can go round your mates for a game of scrabble or twister or on holiday seems pre mature.
		
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The experts will be along shortly but I definitely heard on the news that it reduces transmission by around 65%.  Something like that anyway


----------



## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			That is interesting. Will be interesting to see how this pans out as, for example, my brother is under 50 with a 16 year old son. Neither of them will see a vaccine for a while and so will they be confined to the UK or to countries that do not impose a vaccine requirement. Guessing some countries may follow the current 'standard' which appears to be clear test at least 72 hours before departure and a clear test to return (certainly in my location of choice, Antigua, they are doing return tests on the resorts).
		
Click to expand...

That is the problem with a prioritisation plan which is focussed fairly narrowly. These things follow a tipping point, where the public 'mood' shifts. Right now, I think people are in the 'waiting for a vaccination' phase, but when the clock changes and the days warm up (although it is not bad at the moment), people will start to get restless, and once enough people are vaccinated, the pressure on Govt will be irresistible.

Ironically, UK tourists, more of whom have been vacc'd, might be more attractive than other countries which are lagging behind.


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## SatchFan (Feb 16, 2021)

I must be easy to please. All this talk of foreign holidays and yet I'd be happy if Boris announces on the 22nd that I can go to Caffe Nero for a latte and an almond croissant.


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I must be easy to please. All this talk of foreign holidays and yet I'd be happy if Boris announces on the 22nd that I can go to Caffe Nero for a latte and an almond croissant.
		
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He probably will but soon enough, you will want more. One almond croissant will not do. You will progress to harder stuff, and then you will want that patisserie to be in Paris or Vienna and there is no easy way back.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 16, 2021)

hovis said:



			The experts will be along shortly but I definitely heard on the news that it reduces transmission by around 65%.  Something like that anyway
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully, then we can get you old codgers on a plane and bogged off!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2021)

Can we not be like NZ and Australia and close the borders of for visitors in and out ?

People can still have a holiday in the UK ?


----------



## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

Here is a new Covid risk calculator, the one used to add more people to the shielding /early vacc list. QCovid


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## arnieboy (Feb 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can we not be like NZ and Australia and close the borders of for visitors in and out ?

People can still have a holiday in the UK ?
		
Click to expand...

That's all I want, two weeks in August holed up with my family in a remote Devon cottage.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 16, 2021)

ger147 said:



			The whole issue of vaccine passports/certificates, whether they will be required and whether foreign travel will be allowed off the back of it etc. is something largely beyond the control of the UK government.  What Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. decide to implement re. whether they allow foreign visitors or not, from which countries, if evidence of a vaccine is required etc. is a matter for those countries to decide for themselves.  If they decide to only allow UK visitors who can provide evidence of a Covid-19 vaccine, I'm not sure what a protest march to Trafalgar Square would achieve.
		
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Nothing. Nor should it. Their country, their decision.


----------



## Robster59 (Feb 16, 2021)

In my job I deal with cryogenic storage and so we get involved with the pharma companies, shippers for the vaccines, etc. 
I'm on a webinar on this at the moment and one thing that came out of this that is frightening is the manufacturer of spurious "clone" vaccines in China which are now being sold at £150 per shot!  
And organised crime gangs are looking at ways to hijack shipments of Covid vaccines and distribute them on the black market.
Words fail me at how low people will go.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Here is a new Covid risk calculator, the one used to add more people to the shielding /early vacc list. QCovid

Click to expand...

74 - guess that must be mostly my age as my BMI is OK (fractionally overweight) and I have no health issues.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I do wish our esteemed leaders would grow up, pit their differences aside and agree to agree about uk wide restrictions.
To say holidays are out this year is a ridiculous statement given the vaccine roll out etc. If englend say its ok to go abroad (and as has been pointed out it will be more down to the receiving country) then whats to stop any Scots who have been jabbed travelling down to Newcastle and flying from there?

Mod note: this post is about holiday restrictions,  not politics. Oops, sorry, mentioned the p word by accident...
		
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It is probably about concern re mutations arising in other countries. Until we know more about our vaccine's ability to deal with them.


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## larmen (Feb 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is probably about concern re mutations arising in other countries. Until we know more about our vaccine's ability to deal with them.
		
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Maybe the passport will have to include which vaccine you had. AZ, sorry, no safari for you. Pfizer, stay out of Asia. ...


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It is probably about concern re mutations arising in other countries. Until we know more about our vaccine's ability to deal with them.
		
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I'm sure it is, but while there's no border controls between UK countries its a pretty futile excercise. I think we all know thr real reason for it, we're just not allowed to talk about it


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Hope you choke on a stale scone!! 🤣🤣👍
		
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Probably a blue pill 👍👍


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			In my job I deal with cryogenic storage and so we get involved with the pharma companies, shippers for the vaccines, etc.
I'm on a webinar on this at the moment and one thing that came out of this that is frightening is the manufacturer of spurious "clone" vaccines in China which are now being sold at £150 per shot! 
And organised crime gangs are looking at ways to hijack shipments of Covid vaccines and distribute them on the black market.
Words fail me at how low people will go.
		
Click to expand...

Part of me thinks that the army are not just involved in vaccine transport and distribution for logistics purposes


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 16, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361764790679519237
Every adult could receive both jabs by August maybe earlier


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## SaintHacker (Feb 16, 2021)

That will be an amazing effort all round if it happens 👏


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361764790679519237
Every adult could receive both jabs by August maybe earlier
		
Click to expand...

If they are as quick as Sunday it's achievable, in and out in 20 mins


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 16, 2021)

Just brilliant that the NHS and public health are able to smash every target that the government sets for them.  But goodness, we really do need to help the NHS staff recover after we are over the worst of this by doing our absolute best to keep ourselves well and by not using the system unless we absolutely have to...and when we use it we treasure it and respect everyone who deals with us and treats us.

And so as part of that I 100% support a cautious approach to ’opening up’ and relaxing restrictions on us - despite the difficulties the restrictions cause and the impact they are having on my family.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2021)

Traminator said:



			End up with a stiff neck 😅
		
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I've stopped peeing on my slippers and rolling out of bed 🙂


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## larmen (Feb 16, 2021)

Will there ever be a possibility for oral vaccination? Imagine if they could post 70 million pills in a week, or we collect one from the pharmacy; and we would be fine with it.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 16, 2021)

larmen said:



			Will there ever be a possibility for oral vaccination? Imagine if they could post 70 million pills in a week, or we collect one from the pharmacy; and we would be fine with it.
		
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https://pharmaphorum.com/news/oral-covid-19-vaccine-beckons-as-immunitybio-licenses-iosbio-tech/


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## Old Skier (Feb 16, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			That's all I want, two weeks in August holed up with my family in a remote Devon cottage.
		
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We don't want you unless you have had your jab


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## Billysboots (Feb 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			We don't want you unless you have had your jab 

Click to expand...

I’ve had mine, so heading down in July.


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## Old Skier (Feb 16, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve had mine, so heading down in July.
		
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If you have your clubs and want to come to Libbaton give me a shout after 14th


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## williamalex1 (Feb 16, 2021)

Ethan, do you think the Oxford vaccination makes women grumpier ?. 
 I suspect it has with my wife, I can't think of any other cause


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If you have your clubs and want to come to Libbaton give me a shout after 14th
		
Click to expand...

Don't you like the first 14 holes 😀


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Ethan, do you think the Oxford vaccination makes women grumpier ?. 
 I suspect it has with my wife, I can't think of any other cause 

Click to expand...

Forgetting her Birthday does it.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Forgetting her Birthday does it.
		
Click to expand...

 Nope , I re-sent her last years card again,  making her a year younger . but still no joy


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Ethan, do you think the Oxford vaccination makes women grumpier ?.
I suspect it has with my wife, I can't think of any other cause 

Click to expand...

I don't think that was reported in The Lancet, but maybe you should write to the editor with that new data.


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## DRW (Feb 17, 2021)

Just when you thought it was safe to go out into the waters :-

Exclusive: Two variants have merged into heavily mutated coronavirus | New Scientist 

Time will tell.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 17, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Forgetting her Birthday does it.
		
Click to expand...

Telling that I can retire in two weeks has certainly done it for my Mrs  Though she has had her first vaccination..so maybe Billy's onto something.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Telling that I can retire in two weeks has certainly done it for my Mrs  Though she has had her first vaccination..so maybe Billy's onto something.
		
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My wife said it was because I ruined her Birthday.  She didn't tell me it was her Birthday!


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## drdel (Feb 17, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Ethan, do you think the Oxford vaccination makes women grumpier ?.
I suspect it has with my wife, I can't think of any other cause 

Click to expand...

It obvious! Her antibodies see you as a variant...


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361947274310483969


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## GB72 (Feb 17, 2021)

Interesting quote from Professor Mark Woolhouse of Edinburgh University about being able to holiday in the UK and the inevitable outcry when beaches get busy, as they did last year:

Over the summer we were treated to pictures of crowded beaches, and there was an outcry about this. ‘There were no outbreaks linked to crowded beaches – there has never been a Covid-19 outbreak linked to a beach ever anywhere in the world, to the best of my knowledge.

The point being made that UK holidays are fine but the risk is foreign travel that should still be blocked.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362070817547427844

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362076522937524236


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## Billysboots (Feb 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If you have your clubs and want to come to Libbaton give me a shout after 14th
		
Click to expand...

If I can convince the good lady that she’s spent more than enough time with me these last twelve months, I may well take you up on that 👍


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## Old Skier (Feb 17, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			If I can convince the good lady that she’s spent more than enough time with me these last twelve months, I may well take you up on that 👍
		
Click to expand...

No bother


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## IainP (Feb 17, 2021)

I've been following the various graphs trending in the right direction recently and taking the positives from those, whilst also being mindful that the most serious numbers are of course so sad & still feel (to me) too high. Which made me think what are the "acceptable numbers" that may be being scrutinised to trigger the relaxations.
The constant bombardment of numbers do seem to be affecting some of the population, and we've chatted on here before about just how many deaths sadly occur in a "normal" year. I was looking for excess numbers and came across this. The 2nd column is 2018 when we had the bad flu season


Guess it shows just how variable things are, and how tricky it is to relate to the daily & weekly numbers constantly shared.
Without thinking about it too much, am maybe leaning towards 1400 a week tagged to covid19, so average of 200 per day.
Obviously with admissions and cases also feeding in. Could be way off though.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2021)

drdel said:



			It obvious! Her antibodies see you as a variant...
		
Click to expand...

Or Deviant...


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 18, 2021)

IainP said:



			I've been following the various graphs trending in the right direction recently and taking the positives from those, whilst also being mindful that the most serious numbers are of course so sad & still feel (to me) too high. Which made me think what are the "acceptable numbers" that may be being scrutinised to trigger the relaxations.
The constant bombardment of numbers do seem to be affecting some of the population, and we've chatted on here before about just how many deaths sadly occur in a "normal" year. I was looking for excess numbers and came across this. The 2nd column is 2018 when we had the bad flu season
View attachment 35087

Guess it shows just how variable things are, and how tricky it is to relate to the daily & weekly numbers constantly shared.
Without thinking about it too much, am maybe leaning towards 1400 a week tagged to covid19, so average of 200 per day.
Obviously with admissions and cases also feeding in. Could be way off though.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry don't understand the figures. Could you explain please.


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## IainP (Feb 18, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry don't understand the figures. Could you explain please.
		
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Sorry,  I should have added the link 
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/

I think it starts with a 5 year average looking back, and tracks excess (+ or -) against that


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56098313

*There has been a "strong decline" in levels of coronavirus infections in England since January, say scientists tracking the epidemic.*
Imperial College London's React study found infections have dropped by two-thirds across England since lockdown began, with an 80% fall in London.
But virus levels are still high, with one in 200 testing positive between 4 and 13 February. 
This is similar to levels seen in late September 2020.
Although these are interim findings, based on more than 85,000 swab tests from randomly selected people, they suggest social distancing and restrictions are having an impact.
Prof Paul Elliott, director of the programme at Imperial, said the drop in infection rates was "really encouraging". 
It comes as Prime Minister Boris Johnson prepares to receive new data on the effect of vaccines on the spread of coronavirus, ahead of Monday's publication of a roadmap for easing the lockdown in England.
Speaking on Wednesday he said it was "absolutely right" to take a "data not dates" approach to leaving lockdown, and stressed England would ease measures "cautiously".
A further 12,718 coronavirus cases were reported across the UK on Wednesday - down 24% on the seven-day average - alongside another 738 deaths within 28 days of a positive test.

Check case numbers in your area
How will we know if the vaccine is working? 
Explained: How test and trace works
According to the Imperial College London team, during early-to-mid-February 0.51% of people in the study tested positive in England, down from 1.57% in early January. In London, positive tests fell from 2.83% to 0.54% over six weeks.
The study's author Prof Steven Riley described the fall in cases in London as "dramatic" and said there had been "a strong downward trend since January - better than many hoped for", which is equivalent to a halving of infections every 15 days.
The researchers estimated the R number - the average number of people one infected person will pass the virus on to - was around 0.72.
But more than 20,000 Covid-19 patients are still in hospital in the UK, and although new daily cases and hospital admissions are falling, they are still relatively high.
Prof Elliott told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "Nobody wants to be in lockdown any longer than they have to be but a note of warning - the prevalence rates are still very high. They are as high as they were in September when they were on the increase and the numbers of people in hospital currently are at a level that they were in the first wave so we really have to be cautious."
While the virus is declining in all nine English regions, and substantially in the capital, South East and West Midlands, it is falling less steeply in the North West, North East and Yorkshire and the Humber.
This could be linked to tougher lockdown rules being introduced earlier in London and south-east England after a pre-Christmas surge in cases related to the more transmissible virus variant first discovered in Kent.
The report found falls in infections across all age groups, with 18 to 24-year-olds and five to 12-year-olds currently having the highest virus levels - although still below 1%.
It estimates the over-65s have the lowest levels of virus at 0.3%.










More young children have been attending school during this lockdown than during the last one, which may have helped keep virus levels slightly higher in these age groups.
But the researchers stressed opening schools to all children was a high priority and there would have to be a "trade-off".
Dr Mary Bousted, joint general secretary of the National Education Union, said in a tweet that the results of the React study made "the strongest case for a phased reopening of schools". 
A "big bang" reopening with the current high rates of infection and hospitalisation would "jeopardise full and sustained school reopening", she added.


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 18, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			This could easily have gone into random irritations but it is heartbreaking.

2 guys one from Liverpool the other from Leicester came to Kirkstone pass in The Lake District last week to camp overnight. They got into difficulties and Patterdale Mountain Rescue were called out. An experienced rescuer fell 500 feet whilst carrying out his rescue. The 2 guys were fined £200 each.

The rescuer has damaged his spinal cord and is unlikely to ever walk again. A fund has been set up to support him.

Words fail me
		
Click to expand...

Great news see attached although we must not forget what happened initially and he will be paralysed because of what happened initially during lockdown.

*£680,000 raised for Patterdale Mountain Rescue member injured in callout*


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Great news see attached although we must not forget what happened initially and he will be paralysed because of what happened initially during lockdown.

*£680,000 raised for Patterdale Mountain Rescue member injured in callout*

Click to expand...

It’s absolutely fantastic, but as you say, something that should of never been needed and those responsible should be locked up imo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

Given we are in lockdown I am struggling a bit to understand why we still have such a significant numbers of new infections each day,  yes falling dramatically from where it was as the lockdown has it's impact - but if we consider that a 'full' and 'fully enforced' lockdown should very quickly drive the number of new infections to a low number - why still the number we have daily.

Given that we are in lockdown the prospect of relaxing things does give me cause for concern.  Maybe we have to accept that when relaxation comes,  numbers of new infections will shoot up again but the vaccination programme will reduce the number requiring hospitalisation.

Of course those who will suffer the effects of 'long-covid' as a result of picking up the virus and contracting the disease will not show up as a short term concern in the context of hospitalisation - but will become apparent over the coming years.

But the current daily numbers...why?  What are the infection contexts for the new cases?  I'm sure someone is doing the analysis.


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## Imurg (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given we are in lockdown I am struggling a bit to understand why we still have such a significant numbers of new infections each day,  yes falling dramatically from where it was as the lockdown has it's impact - but if we consider that a 'full' and 'fully enforced' lockdown should very quickly drive the number of new infections to a low number - why still the number we have daily.

Given that we are in lockdown the prospect of relaxing things does give me cause for concern.  Maybe we have to accept that when relaxation comes,  numbers of new infections will shoot up again but the vaccination programme will reduce the number requiring hospitalisation.

Of course those who will suffer the effects of 'long-covid' as a result of picking up the virus and contracting the disease will not show up as a short term concern in the context of hospitalisation - but will become apparent over the coming years.

But the current daily numbers...why?  What are the infection contexts for the new cases?  I'm sure someone is doing the analysis.
		
Click to expand...

The newer variants are much easier to catch, therefore more people will be infected so there will be more positive tests.
There's also, possibly, been more tests.
One thing that Mr Orange was right about..reduce testing, reduce case numbers...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given we are in lockdown I am struggling a bit to understand why we still have such a significant numbers of new infections each day,  yes falling dramatically from where it was as the lockdown has it's impact - but if we consider that a 'full' and 'fully enforced' lockdown should very quickly drive the number of new infections to a low number - why still the number we have daily.

Given that we are in lockdown the prospect of relaxing things does give me cause for concern.  Maybe we have to accept that when relaxation comes,  numbers of new infections will shoot up again but the vaccination programme will reduce the number requiring hospitalisation.

Of course those who will suffer the effects of 'long-covid' as a result of picking up the virus and contracting the disease will not show up as a short term concern in the context of hospitalisation - but will become apparent over the coming years.

But the current daily numbers...why?  What are the infection contexts for the new cases?  I'm sure someone is doing the analysis.
		
Click to expand...

It's people not behaving themselves. We keep hearing about people saying they've had enough of lockdown and I still see groups of people not distancing.  There have been recent parties broken up by the police with hundreds of people attending, how many are getting away with it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given we are in lockdown I am struggling a bit to understand why we still have such a significant numbers of new infections each day,  yes falling dramatically from where it was as the lockdown has it's impact - but if we consider that a 'full' and 'fully enforced' lockdown should very quickly drive the number of new infections to a low number - why still the number we have daily.

Given that we are in lockdown the prospect of relaxing things does give me cause for concern.  Maybe we have to accept that when relaxation comes,  numbers of new infections will shoot up again but the vaccination programme will reduce the number requiring hospitalisation.

Of course those who will suffer the effects of 'long-covid' as a result of picking up the virus and contracting the disease will not show up as a short term concern in the context of hospitalisation - but will become apparent over the coming years.

But the current daily numbers...why?  What are the infection contexts for the new cases?  I'm sure someone is doing the analysis.
		
Click to expand...

Because we aren’t in a full lockdown 

Many people are still going to work on a daily basis , people are still flying in , public transport still going strong , some schools still open 

People are still interacting with each other 

The numbers would have been the same during the previous lockdown if we did the same level of testing


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because we aren’t in a full lockdown

Many people are still going to work on a daily basis , people are still flying in , public transport still going strong , some schools still open

People are still interacting with each other

The numbers would have been the same during the previous lockdown if we did the same level of testing
		
Click to expand...

Ok - so my conclusion is that if we had had the same level of testing in the previous lockdown then the daily number of new infections would have been about the same.  OK - I get that.   But today with the level of testing we have, we clearly have a much better handle on the level of new infections daily - and if it is about the same as it was last time round (we just didn't know the true number back then) then we risk have repeated what happened last time we opened up (too soon or too quickly).   problem that everyone has is that we don't know whether the 1000 a day last time is equivalent to 10,000 a day this time.

@SR has answered my 'Why?' question with the answer I fear is correct.  I was rather hoping that there would be a systematic 'it's because of people meeting are up as permitted in a XXX context and in that context it's hard to not pass on the virus no matter how hard everyone tries' .  If such could be identified then the risk associated with perpetuating the 10,000+ new infections a day could be mitigated.  But if it's just reckless, careless or selfish behaviour of individuals...hmmm


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ok - so my conclusion is that if we had had the same level of testing in the previous lockdown then the daily number of new infections would have been about the same.  OK - I get that.   But today with the level of testing we have, we clearly have a much better handle on the level of new infections daily - and if it is about the same as it was last time round (we just didn't know the true number back then) then we risk have repeated what happened last time we opened up (too soon or too quickly).   problem that everyone has is that we don't know whether the 1000 a day last time is equivalent to 10,000 a day this time.

@SR has answered my 'Why?' question with the answer I fear is correct.  I was rather hoping that there would be a systematic 'it's because of people meeting are up as permitted in a XXX context and in that context it's hard to not pass on the virus no matter how hard everyone tries' .  If such could be identified then the risk associated with perpetuating the 10,000+ new infections a day could be mitigated.  But if it's just reckless, careless or selfish behaviour of individuals...hmmm
		
Click to expand...

No it’s not. Rule breaking will be the exception not the norm. LP has it right, people are still having to work, that will almost certainly be the cause of the majority of current infections. Not all of us can work from home, can’t/won’t it makes no difference.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2021)

I’m not sure why all of your conclusions, wry smilings & hmmmmm (ings) have the finger of blame attached. We’ve got 3 pandemics; the disease, the fear, and the pointy finger blamey one!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ok - so my conclusion is that if we had had the same level of testing in the previous lockdown then the daily number of new infections would have been about the same.  OK - I get that.   But today with the level of testing we have, we clearly have a much better handle on the level of new infections daily - and if it is about the same as it was last time round (we just didn't know the true number back then) then we risk have repeated what happened last time we opened up (too soon or too quickly).   problem that everyone has is that we don't know whether the 1000 a day last time is equivalent to 10,000 a day this time.

@SR has answered my 'Why?' question with the answer I fear is correct.  I was rather hoping that there would be a systematic 'it's because of people meeting are up as permitted in a XXX context and in that context it's hard to not pass on the virus no matter how hard everyone tries' .  If such could be identified then the risk associated with perpetuating the 10,000+ new infections a day could be mitigated.  But if it's just reckless, careless or selfish behaviour of individuals...hmmm
		
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that during the first lockdown the cases if there was wide testing would be at the same level peak as we have seen this time around - the death rate is approximately the same. The numbers we see now are not down to people breaking rules - some areas that were closed during first lockdown are still open this time. It’s a virus - people will catch it no matter what is put in place 

There is a huge difference between the easing of lockdown this time - the vaccines.

There appears to be this thinking that when we eased out of lockdown in May it was rushed and caused issues ? Why when cases and deaths kept dropping. The issues restarted when the weather got worse and made it easier for viruses to spread - just like common cold and flu etc.

The vaccine is the big hitter right now , people will still catch Covid , it’s not just going to disappear- but the vaccine will protect people from the dangerous element of the virus


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## SaintHacker (Feb 18, 2021)

On a slightly selfish but also positive note, sky reporting that the greek tourism minister is talking to the UK about getting tourism opened up again for the summer 🤞🤞


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no doubt that during the first lockdown the cases if there was wide testing would be at the same level peak as we have seen this time around - the death rate is approximately the same.

There is a huge difference between the easing of lockdown this time - the vaccines.

There appears to be this thinking that when we eased out of lockdown in May it was rushed and caused issues ? Why when cases and deaths kept dropping. The issues restarted when the weather got worse and made it easier for viruses to spread - just like common cold and flu etc.

The vaccine is the big hitter right now , people will still catch Covid , it’s not just going to disappear- but the vaccine will protect people from the dangerous element of the virus
		
Click to expand...

Very much this. At the end of the last lockdown, I am note sure we did open up too soon. By the end of the summer, cases were low and pretty much everything was open. 2 things then came along, Winter weather and the re-opening of education. That is why I believe that schools will open in isolation on 8th March so as it can clearly be seen as to how much of a factor they are in the spread of covid. No rise in cases, crack on with opening other things. 

Too easy to point fingers at the high profile, and I suspect relatively few in number, large scale breaches which some outlets want to publicise as the norm. If there are any breaches to 'blame' for an increased spread, I suspect it is the ones that we do not see or hear about, families having a meal because, you know, they are all careful and it will be fine, nice normal, middle aged couples meeting for a few drinks at a weekend etc. The little breaches that never make the press. I suspect that they are far more widespread.


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ok - so my conclusion is that if we had had the same level of testing in the previous lockdown then the daily number of new infections would have been about the same.  OK - I get that.   But today with the level of testing we have, we clearly have a much better handle on the level of new infections daily - and if it is about the same as it was last time round (we just didn't know the true number back then) then we risk have repeated what happened last time we opened up (too soon or too quickly).   problem that everyone has is that we don't know whether the 1000 a day last time is equivalent to 10,000 a day this time.
		
Click to expand...

My opinion is that we missed the boat on testing. Community testing was halted in March 2020. That was a ghastly mistake. Test and Trace has been an unmitigated disaster, because it has failed to reach too many cases. There were weeks when ONS reported 3 or 4 times as many cases as those referred to T&T, and then the follow up was changed from identifying and contacting contacts to asking cases to notify contacts and assuming that this was 100% reliable. It is a pitiful service. The emphasis has always seemed to be to present data with a very big number, X million tests, but most of those were not for people suspected or at high risk of having Covid, and failing to test close contacts of proven cases was a huge mistake. So saying we now do 7 million tests compared to 2 million 6 months ago is not very informative, since many of that 7 million are Lateral Flow Tests, antibody tests or others that don't really inform the management of the pandemic. BBC More or Less has a number of podcast episodes on this.

I now regard the tests as largely irrelevant and if I had symptoms probably wouldn't bother.


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Very much this. At the end of the last lockdown, I am note sure we did open up too soon. By the end of the summer, cases were low and pretty much everything was open. 2 things then came along, Winter weather and the re-opening of education. That is why I believe that schools will open in isolation on 8th March so as it can clearly be seen as to how much of a factor they are in the spread of covid. No rise in cases, crack on with opening other things.

Too easy to point fingers at the high profile, and I suspect relatively few in number, large scale breaches which some outlets want to publicise as the norm. If there are any breaches to 'blame' for an increased spread, I suspect it is the ones that we do not see or hear about, families having a meal because, you know, they are all careful and it will be fine, nice normal, middle aged couples meeting for a few drinks at a weekend etc. The little breaches that never make the press. I suspect that they are far more widespread.
		
Click to expand...

Here is a paper from Nature, probably the most highly regarded scientific journal, about the effectiveness of Govt (not the UK, general view) interventions on Covid. It is a bit data heavy, so look for the first graphic and look at the importance from top to bottom. Nature article


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Here is a paper from Nature, probably the most highly regarded scientific journal, about the effectiveness of Govt (not the UK, general view) interventions on Covid. It is a bit data heavy, so look for the first graphic and look at the importance from top to bottom. Nature article

Click to expand...

Yeah, interpretation of that sort of date is well outside of my wheelhouse. Am I reading that right that cancelling small gatherings and closing education had the most significant impact on reduction of the spread of covid or have I got this the wrong way round.


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## ForeRight (Feb 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			On a slightly selfish but also positive note, sky reporting that the greek tourism minister is talking to the UK about getting tourism opened up again for the summer 🤞🤞
		
Click to expand...

I can't believe that many greeks want to come to the UK for a summer holiday


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Yeah, interpretation of that sort of date is well outside of my wheelhouse. Am I reading that right that cancelling small gatherings and closing education had the most significant impact on reduction of the spread of covid or have I got this the wrong way round.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on. Most important at the top, least important at the bottom.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m not sure why all of your conclusions, wry smilings & hmmmmm (ings) have the finger of blame attached. We’ve got 3 pandemics; the disease, the fear, and the pointy finger blamey one!!!
		
Click to expand...

Methinks you read too much between the lines where there is only white space.  If I now find myself pointing the finger at anyone, it is those identified by @SR.  I'd rather that specific contexts have been identified so we can tighten up on these.  But seems not. Though the _Nature_ chart is very interesting in that regards.

Remember my question was simple - If we are in lockdown why still 10,000+ new infections daily?  No doubt some will look to find my agenda in that asking - unfortunately for them I have to report that there is none.


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## road2ruin (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Methinks you read too much between the lines where there is only white space.  If I now find myself pointing the finger at anyone, it is those identified by @SR.  I'd rather that specific contexts have been identified so we can tighten up on these.  But seems not.

Remember my question was simple - If we are in lockdown why still 10,000+ new infections daily?  No doubt some will look to find my agenda in that asking - unfortunately for them I have to report that there is none.
		
Click to expand...

As already mentioned, the answer is likely to be that it is because we are simply not in lockdown. Schools are full of children that are the offspring of 'apparent' keyworkers. A larger number of employers are demanding that staff go to their places of work rather than WFH. More shops are open as 'essential' that were not open in Lockdown 1.0. These accompanied with the more transmissible variants probably account for the vast majority of the new infections. 

Reading the media you'd think the vast majority of the population are out gallivanting around and breaking rules however in reality it's a noisy minority however the truth doesn't make nearly so much an interesting story or clickbait online.


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Spot on. Most important at the top, least important at the bottom.

View attachment 35111

Click to expand...


OK that chart is fascinating, especially the fact that small gathering cancellation has a bigger impact than cancelling large gatherings.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Methinks you read too much between the lines where there is only white space.  If I now find myself pointing the finger at anyone, it is those identified by @SR.  I'd rather that specific contexts have been identified so we can tighten up on these.  But seems not. Though the _Nature_ chart is very interesting in that regards.

Remember my question was simple - If we are in lockdown why still 10,000+ new infections daily?  No doubt some will look to find my agenda in that asking - unfortunately for them I have to report that there is none.
		
Click to expand...

You seemed to favour SR’s supposition, a drum that’s been banged from the beginning, rather than the reality of LP’s. People are still working, inside everywhere. This is where transmission occurs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

So as the 10,000+ daily infections appears to be down in the main to the virus being highly infectious - no matter how hard we might try.  An so might we consider this level as that which we might consider as the underlying baseline for when we re-open.  Because we are only going to be doing more that we currently are.  

I am thinking that the hope is that come 8th March and schools re-opening, the daily numbers will be closer to 5,000...maybe even 1,000 and that that becomes our baseline level of infection in the community? And on that basis if - say - 5% of infections result in hospitalisation that means say 50-125 new hospitalisations a day (I plucked 5% out of the air) - and the NHS can cope with that.  Of course long-covid skips short term hospitalisation so we have to be cautious about becoming too comfortable with a baseline daily infection rate and baseline hospitalisation level.  But as for any illness there will be such a baseline.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			You seemed to favour SR’s supposition, a drum that’s been banged from the beginning, rather than the reality of LP’s. People are still working, inside everywhere. This is where transmission occurs.
		
Click to expand...

I don't _favour _it at all.  I am pretty agnostic on it.  I'd rather it wasn't 'just how it is', I'd rather there was something specific identifiable, but if we can't then 'that's just how it is' will be how it is.  I simply asked the question why in lockdown we have 10,000+ today.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2021)

Do you even read what you write?

_*‘@SR has answered my 'Why?' question with the answer I fear is correct*_’


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Do you even read what you write?

_*‘@SR has answered my 'Why?' question with the answer I fear is correct*_’
		
Click to expand...

I don't want it to be correct...it is not what I want - that is why I wrote 'I fear' - but only 'fear' as in my view it is easier to control and contain something if you can put a box around it and apply specific and targetted control measures.


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2021)

I am in a positive frame of mind as so I am looking at it from another point of view. We have people working, more places open and more kids at school (no figures for that, just quoting what has been said above) and still the numbers are going down at a pretty dramatic rate now. Maybe loosening the restrictions a bit will not be the worst option. 

As per Ethan's very helpful chart above, however, we still have the biggest hurdle to clear, kids going back to school. It helped push up the numbers last time and could do it again and so we all wait at home and see what happens (not saying kids going back to school is not the right thing, I think it is very important but the selfish bit in the back of my head, I have no kids and at nearly 50 am pretty unlikely to, keeps pointing out to me that the things I want to do are being held up so as other people's children can go to school. It is a horrible thought and one I do not like but in the interests of being open I will not deny that it does fight its way out some times).


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2021)

Reports that Northern Ireland staying in Lockdown until 1st April is not good. Does not raise much in the way of hope for anything in England until late March.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2021)

This rings true for me 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1361783506012172292


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because we aren’t in a full lockdown

Many people are still going to work on a daily basis , people are still flying in , public transport still going strong , some schools still open

People are still interacting with each other

*The numbers would have been the same during the previous lockdown if we did the same level of testing*

Click to expand...


Exactly. IIRC, the first advice was if getting symptoms go home and take paracetamol and stay there. I'm not sure testing was pushed. It wasn't as easily feasible then anyway.
And , yes, this lockdown isn't as tight as the first.
Also, how many youngsters bothered to get tested. Don't think *all* of them did. And with vaccination being about for some time now, the ratio of old to young infected must have changed.
The ratio of tested positive to "going into hospital" would be different I should think.


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## DRW (Feb 18, 2021)

Keeping with the positively, the data from Israel is amazing :-

נדב איל Nadav Eyal on Twitter: "פרסום ראשון: מחקר של בכירי משרד הבריאות ובכירים בפייזר (אני יודע, תיכף אגיע לזה): החיסון יעיל בכ-90% נגד הדבקה, כ-93% נגד אשפוזים ונגד תמותה. עושה שימוש במידע מותמם ולא אישי של המתחסנים בישראל, וב"מתחסנים" הכוונה היא לשבוע אחרי מנה שנייה. מתייחס לאמצע ינואר עד פבר'. @ynetalerts https://t.co/R1RpdAlCFJ" / Twitter

Just in case you cant get your computer to translate it says :-




			First publication: A study of senior Health Ministry officials and Pfizer officials (I know, I will soon get to this): The vaccine is about 90% effective against infection, about 93% against hospitalizations and against mortality. Using unindented and personal information of the vaccinated in Israel, and "vaccinated" means one week after a second dose. Refers to mid-January to Feb
		
Click to expand...

Real world results for Pfizer, mainly old people data, amazing results in this age range, far greater than I was hoping for, just a few months ago. Hopefully the case/death figures will keep dropping and dropping.

Plenty of light coming for next autumn/winter and hope summer arrives early here and oxford vaccine real life results in older people come in just as good in due course.

Lockdown sucks, some of the rules are rubbish, but feeling positive, forward we march, bring on the summer!


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## D-S (Feb 18, 2021)

Heard from a friend today who was  taliking with a respite home re a family member that despite all their efforts and never having a case before they recently (a couple of weeks ago) has a Covid - 19 outbreak in the home. However all residents had already been vaccinated and no one had a serious illness and no hospitalisations and all had recovered. So some really positive news.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 18, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			You seemed to favour SR’s supposition, a drum that’s been banged from the beginning, rather than the reality of LP’s. People are still working, inside everywhere. This is where transmission occurs.
		
Click to expand...

No, the reality is the graph.If I've understood it correctly- Small gatherings that shouldn't have happened.
They would have been breaches of guidance/rules. 
So, SR is right. People misbehaving.


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## GB72 (Feb 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			Heard from a friend today who was  taliking with a respite home re a family member that despite all their efforts and never having a case before they recently (a couple of weeks ago) has a Covid - 19 outbreak in the home. However all residents had already been vaccinated and no one had a serious illness and no hospitalisations and all had recovered. So some really positive news.
		
Click to expand...

That is the sort of story I like to hear. Shows the dangers are still there but with a positive outcome due to the vaccine.


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## SatchFan (Feb 18, 2021)

I do a lot of casual observation looking out of the window while at my desktop at home and I can see a definite improvement in people's behaviour in Lockdown 3 compared to Lockdown 1. Sneaky house visits seem to be a thing of the past and with the sun out this afternoon there are a lot of people out having a walk but they are all keeping their distance. That said there are still a number of illicit parties being reported in the local news.


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2021)

DRW said:



			Keeping with the positively, the data from Israel is amazing :-

נדב איל Nadav Eyal on Twitter: "פרסום ראשון: מחקר של בכירי משרד הבריאות ובכירים בפייזר (אני יודע, תיכף אגיע לזה): החיסון יעיל בכ-90% נגד הדבקה, כ-93% נגד אשפוזים ונגד תמותה. עושה שימוש במידע מותמם ולא אישי של המתחסנים בישראל, וב"מתחסנים" הכוונה היא לשבוע אחרי מנה שנייה. מתייחס לאמצע ינואר עד פבר'. @ynetalerts https://t.co/R1RpdAlCFJ" / Twitter

Just in case you cant get your computer to translate it says :-



Real world results for Pfizer, mainly old people data, amazing results in this age range, far greater than I was hoping for, just a few months ago. Hopefully the case/death figures will keep dropping and dropping.

Plenty of light coming for next autumn/winter and hope summer arrives early here and oxford vaccine real life results in older people come in just as good in due course.

Lockdown sucks, some of the rules are rubbish, but feeling positive, forward we march, bring on the summer!
		
Click to expand...

Israel got priority access to vaccine in exchange for data on the outcomes. It is perfectly normal and proper for pharma company scientists and physicians to be included on clinical papers of this sort. 

I am not surprised the real world effects are as good as the clinical trial effects because the trial populations were pretty representative and broad and effects were very consistent across age, gender, ethnicity etc and thus likely to generalise to the population. A lot of the reception of effect in real world comes with medicines which people start to take less reliably with time, forgetting pills or whatever. That obviously doesn't happen with the vaccine.


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## banjofred (Feb 18, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I do a lot of casual observation looking out of the window while at my desktop at home and I can see a definite improvement in people's behaviour in Lockdown 3 compared to Lockdown 1. Sneaky house visits seem to be a thing of the past and with the sun out this afternoon there are a lot of people out having a walk but they are all keeping their distance. That said there are still a number of illicit parties being reported in the local news.
		
Click to expand...

Opposite of what I'm seeing..... People are fed up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362432451902124036

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362433217920454656

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362433532359016452


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## road2ruin (Feb 18, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I do a lot of casual observation looking out of the window while at my desktop at home and I can see a definite improvement in people's behaviour in Lockdown 3 compared to Lockdown 1. Sneaky house visits seem to be a thing of the past and with the sun out this afternoon there are a lot of people out having a walk but they are all keeping their distance. That said there are still a number of illicit parties being reported in the local news.
		
Click to expand...

I think that weather probably plays a large part. During lockdown 1 we didn't ever go into anyone else's house however I was happy enough to visit to sit in the garden and have a beer or three. I wouldn't consider that now mainly because it's baltic outside so not nearly as pleasant!!


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, the reality is the graph.If I've understood it correctly- Small gatherings that shouldn't have happened.
They would have been breaches of guidance/rules.
So, SR is right. People misbehaving.
		
Click to expand...

It’s from Nov 20. Has no bearing on current infection rate causes. SR & SILH are pontificating on infections now. They wouldn’t have been breeches in Nov.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 18, 2021)

Work have introduced weekly tests for high risk groups who work closely. 
Done my first test today. Hopefully a covid holiday comes my way. Every man and his dog has had one some form of isolation period either kids were positive or partners. One has even had three periods off.


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## D-S (Feb 18, 2021)




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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 18, 2021)

D-S said:



View attachment 35127

Click to expand...

Who is suggesting that there is a blocking of transmission of the virus by the vaccinated?
It would be good if it were correct, but why would someone who picks up the virus, but isn't ill because they are vaccinated, not be able to pass it on?
I understood that this is what was not known- what data and from whom has said otherwise?
If it is not a fact, then it is a dangerous thing to say, because believing that you cannot pass on a virus because you have been vaccinated can lead to increased infections.


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## D-S (Feb 18, 2021)

This is a clip from a tweet by COVID Fact Check UK. The Telegraph seem to be running the story.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362520450748801027


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			As already mentioned, the answer is likely to be that it is because we are simply not in lockdown. Schools are full of children that are the offspring of 'apparent' keyworkers. A larger number of employers are demanding that staff go to their places of work rather than WFH. More shops are open as 'essential' that were not open in Lockdown 1.0. These accompanied with the more transmissible variants probably account for the vast majority of the new infections. 

Reading the media you'd think the vast majority of the population are out gallivanting around and breaking rules however in reality it's a noisy minority however the truth doesn't make nearly so much an interesting story or clickbait online.
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't take a vast majority to create the numbers of infections we are currently seeing, a noisy minority are quite capable.  You only have to go back a short time to see daily infection rates of 60k, we have the same varients going around so it's only the restriction of people meeting up that reduces infection rates. There isn't an increase of people having to turn up at work either.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Or Deviant...
		
Click to expand...

Oi


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



*It doesn't take a vast majority to create the numbers of infections we are currently seeing, a noisy minority are quite capable. * You only have to go back a short time to see daily infection rates of 60k, we have the same varients going around so it's only the restriction of people meeting up that reduces infection rates. There isn't an increase of people having to turn up at work either.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly that's correct. In a country of 70 million people even if only 1% are not following the rules that's an extra 700000 people that aren't doing what's needed to suppress the virus. On top of the essential workers in the NHS, schools, supermarkets and delivery drivers etc it's easy to see how we are still at 10 -20k infections per day.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			You seemed to favour SR’s supposition, a drum that’s been banged from the beginning, rather than the reality of LP’s. People are still working, inside everywhere. This is where transmission occurs.
		
Click to expand...

Has there been a sudden increase of people forced to stop working from home. If you suggest this then show some evidence rather than just disagreeing.  Also, you say that transmission occurs where people are still working inside, everywhere. Really! Maybe you can also show some evidence for this supposition, or is it just your gut reaction, I think it probably is.  If you look at the diagram posted by Ethan it shows a continuem of where infections have occured and schools and social meetings score high on the list, working safely is way down it.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2021)

D-S said:



View attachment 35127

Click to expand...

If you make posts like this then please show the source.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			This is a clip from a tweet by COVID Fact Check UK. The Telegraph seem to be running the story.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362520450748801027

Click to expand...

Brilliant news, does make me feel more comfortable having had it.. not only shouldn't I did from covid but their is less chance of infecting my family . Considering I have been at work full time since the pandamic and we have had a few outbreaks (which I been lucky to avoid getting) does make me feel slightly Safer


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## Leftitshort (Feb 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Has there been a sudden increase of people forced to stop working from home. If you suggest this then show some evidence rather than just disagreeing.  Also, you say that transmission occurs where people are still working inside, everywhere. Really! Maybe you can also show some evidence for this supposition, or is it just your gut reaction, I think it probably is.  If you look at the diagram posted by Ethan it shows a continuem of where infections have occured and schools and social meetings score high on the list, working safely is way down it.
		
Click to expand...

It’s dated Nov 20. It’s more relevant to lockdown 1. If you’re talking about now; many more work places are open requiring people to travel & mix in the workplace. They don’t chose this. The definition of ‘essential’ has been expanded so no furlough, no working from home. I speak from direct experience! This is far more prevalent than people meeting socially imo.


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## rudebhoy (Feb 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s dated Nov 20. It’s more relevant to lockdown 1. If you’re talking about now; many more work places are open requiring people to travel & mix in the workplace. They don’t chose this. The definition of ‘essential’ has been expanded so no furlough, no working from home. I speak from direct experience! This is far more prevalent than people meeting socially imo.
		
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Part of my afternoon dog walk takes me past the main road heading into our town which is purely commuter belt. I tend to pass that bit around 5pm. I have noticed a big increase in traffic this week compared to a month ago. It's not the nose to tail crawl you normally see outside lockdown, but there are far more cars than there has been, and the vast majority will be people heading home from work.

This is purely a personal observation, but there does appear to be a steady drift back to the workplace.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 19, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Part of my afternoon dog walk takes me past the main road heading into our town which is purely commuter belt. I tend to pass that bit around 5pm. I have noticed a big increase in traffic this week compared to a month ago. It's not the nose to tail crawl you normally see outside lockdown, but there are far more cars than there has been, and the vast majority will be people heading home from work.

This is purely a personal observation, but there does appear to be a steady drift back to the workplace.
		
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Example being, one of our sites, it was closed for 2 months in lockdown 1. Open ever since. Normally approx 60 people work there. Some are furloughed, but approx 40 in at the moment. In jan at one stage they had 9 confirmed infections & 16 isolating. These people have no option to WFH.


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## D-S (Feb 19, 2021)

Weren’t construction sites closed for a period in Lockdown 1? Also dentists were closed or certainly emergency only and we have the, vital for February, garden centres open this time too.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			Weren’t construction sites closed for a period in Lockdown 1? Also dentists were closed or certainly emergency only and we have the, vital for February, garden centres open this time too.
		
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Yes until they deemed builders essienal / safe 

Dentists take the Mick . Round here you can get private stuff done but not NHS ATM
So the dentist's paid by the NHS just take their money and don't do anything but the private ones work and charge you over the top


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## SaintHacker (Feb 19, 2021)

At the risk of straying into the p word arena tto far, a government minister has come out this morning and said they can't guarantee this will be the last lockdown. Personally i think he's having a laugh, i feel if they try and impose yet another one people will say enough is enough and rebel against it completely


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## Imurg (Feb 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			At the risk of straying into the p word arena tto far, a government minister has come out this morning and said they can't guarantee this will be the last lockdown. Personally i think he's having a laugh, i feel if they try and impose yet another one people will say enough is enough and rebel against it completely
		
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Of course he can't guarantee there won't be another lockdown. Nobody wants one and nobody can afford one but one is needed, say we get another spike last the last 3 months are we just going to sit back and let it run?
Of course not
And, of course, there's a very good likelihood that we won't get a spike with the vaccine rolling out well.
But its like asking someone to guarantee there'll be no snow in July....unlikely but can you guarantee it?
Never say Never
Never take anything off the table.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Example being, one of our sites, it was closed for 2 months in lockdown 1. Open ever since. Normally approx 60 people work there. Some are furloughed, but approx 40 in at the moment. In jan at one stage they had 9 confirmed infections & 16 isolating. These people have no option to WFH.
		
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Yes, there are more people back at the workplace than the first lockdown.
Despite precautions, which soon become irksome and not adhered to by some, (human nature), because they are indoors there will be more aerosol spread of the virus than first lockdown.
But quoting one source of infection, as above, in an attempted defence of other actions also spreading the virus ( unlawful gatherings), is not logical nor helpful.
All actions involving close person to person contact increase the risk.
What worries me now is this "news" that you cannot transmit the virus if you have been vaccinated.
Already one of us has apparently accepted it as fact. If it is fact, great,
But I want it pronounced as such by the likes of Sage at the TV news conference by the likes of Prof VanTam and Hancock etc. 
The last I heard from Professor Van Tam was that it was not known.


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## bobmac (Feb 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Dentists take the Mick . Round here you can get private stuff done but not NHS ATM
		
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It may be regional but my local NHS dentist is open as usual


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## SaintHacker (Feb 19, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Of course he can't guarantee there won't be another lockdown. Nobody wants one and nobody can afford one but one is needed, say we get another spike last the last 3 months are we just going to sit back and let it run?
Of course not
And, of course, there's a very good likelihood that we won't get a spike with the vaccine rolling out well.
But its like asking someone to guarantee there'll be no snow in July....unlikely but can you guarantee it?
Never say Never
Never take anything off the table.
		
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I realise that but with a population already fatigued by what seem to be never ending restrictions, who have been told to make an extra effort this time to make this the last one, it might not have been the cleverest thing to come out with. If it was to happen, and i pray it doesn't, I can see public compliance being very very low


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## GB72 (Feb 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I realise that but with a population already fatigued by what seem to be never ending restrictions, who have been told to make an extra effort this time to make this the last one, it might not have been the cleverest thing to come out with. If it was to happen, and i pray it doesn't, I can see public compliance being very very low
		
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Thing is, you are damned if you and damned if you don't. You make the safe answer and say you cannot guarantee it (quite correctly) you are lowering national moral, you say it is the last one and you get hammered because there is no way you can guarantee such a thing. It was a question asked to produce a headline knowing full well the only sensible answer.


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## Ethan (Feb 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Thing is, you are damned if you and damned if you don't. You make the safe answer and say you cannot guarantee it (quite correctly) you are lowering national moral, you say it is the last one and you get hammered because there is no way you can guarantee such a thing. It was a question asked to produce a headline knowing full well the only sensible answer.
		
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Even though it was set up as a gotcha, there were smarter answers available.


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## GB72 (Feb 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Even though it was set up as a gotcha, there were smarter answers available.
		
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Probably right but the question would keep popping up in various formats until the press had their 'this may not be the last lockdown' headline.


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## Ethan (Feb 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Probably right but the question would keep popping up in various formats until the press had their 'this may not be the last lockdown' headline.
		
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The correct and only answer is to say that if the public complies properly with advice, we have an excellent chance of this being the last lockdown, but if people break the rules and the spirit of the rules, controls will last longer and further lockdowns may be necessary. The outcome does not depend on Govt policy, it depends on public actions.


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## GB72 (Feb 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The correct and only answer is to say that if the public complies properly with advice, we have an excellent chance of this being the last lockdown, but if people break the rules and the spirit of the rules, controls will last longer and further lockdowns may be necessary. The outcome does not depend on Govt policy, it depends on public actions.
		
Click to expand...

That is an excellent answer. Problem is that it would still result in a massive headline of 'government cannot guarantee that this is the last lockdown'


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## Ethan (Feb 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			That is an excellent answer. Problem is that it would still result in a massive headline of 'government cannot guarantee that this is the last lockdown'
		
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The best approach is for Govt to tell people that Govt will offer a roadmap, but they must follow it if it is to be a success. Enforcement is not enough to make it work, a very high level of public acceptance is critical.

I think it is a mistake to attach relaxation to specific dates, though. Better to say that certain levels of cases, deaths, hospitalisations, whatever, will trigger relaxations.


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## drdel (Feb 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The correct and only answer is to say that if the public complies properly with advice, we have an excellent chance of this being the last lockdown, but if people break the rules and the spirit of the rules, controls will last longer and further lockdowns may be necessary. The outcome does not depend on Govt policy, it depends on public actions.
		
Click to expand...

Might be the better answer but its far too many words for a headline or newscaster. They would just select the words they wanted.


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## Ethan (Feb 19, 2021)

drdel said:



			Might be the better answer but its far too many words for a headline or newscaster. They would just select the words they wanted.
		
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I am sure the Number 10 spin doctors could come up with a pithy tagline.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I realise that but with a population already fatigued by what seem to be never ending restrictions, who have been told to make an extra effort this time to make this the last one, it might not have been the cleverest thing to come out with. If it was to happen, and i pray it doesn't, I can see public compliance being very very low
		
Click to expand...

If there is a need for another then there will be one, people may not like it but they will put up with it.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			That is an excellent answer. Problem is that it would still result in a massive headline of 'government cannot guarantee that this is the last lockdown'
		
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And they would be correct.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 19, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362757832467230720

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362760860935090177


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## Hobbit (Feb 19, 2021)

Just a query @Ethan  on the South African variant that's causing concern; cases and deaths in the UK to date, probably very few SA variant, are 59k per 1 million cases and 1750 deaths per 1 million. The SA variant, in SA, is showing a lot lower at 25k cases/1m and 815 deaths/1m. Why the huge emphasis on the SA variant?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 19, 2021)

Called the GP and updated the wife weight since the twins 

She now can get a jab 

Apparently not the first to call about it


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## Slime (Feb 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			At the risk of straying into the p word arena tto far, a government minister has come out this morning and said they can't guarantee this will be the last lockdown. Personally i think he's having a laugh, i feel *if they try and impose yet another one people will say enough is enough and rebel against it completely*

Click to expand...

I won't and don't know anyone who would.


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## Ethan (Feb 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Just a query @Ethan  on the South African variant that's causing concern; cases and deaths in the UK to date, probably very few SA variant, are 59k per 1 million cases and 1750 deaths per 1 million. The SA variant, in SA, is showing a lot lower at 25k cases/1m and 815 deaths/1m. Why the huge emphasis on the SA variant?
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure the numbers necessarily tell the whole story, but the concern over the SA variant is the greater transmissibility, possible resistance to vaccination and risk of reinfection. Greater transmissibility effectively speeds up the race between outbreak and vaccination, but if vaccination is less effective then it will lead to growing cases again, including those now thought to be safe. And the more cases that are around, the greater risk of further variants emerging because they occur more or less randomly and the more virus there is, the more opportunities for random change to occur.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 19, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362797018020777987


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## DanFST (Feb 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			And the more cases that are around, the greater risk of further variants emerging because they occur more or less randomly and the more virus there is, the more opportunities for random change to occur.
		
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Isn't this whole "we must stay locked down to stop variants" slightly pointless? 

Open borders and Billions with no access to Vaccines. Tho admirable, our little rock has very little significance to how this plays out.


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## hovis (Feb 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1362797018020777987

Click to expand...

I've noticed that we seemed to have hit a plateau with around 12,000 infections a day


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## Ethan (Feb 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Isn't this whole "we must stay locked down to stop variants" slightly pointless?

Open borders and Billions with no access to Vaccines. Tho admirable, our little rock has very little significance to how this plays out.
		
Click to expand...

No, it isn't pointless. The prevalence of the condition and the circumstances influencing its spread vary around the world, but the more we can reduce that spread and consequently the number of cases, the fewer variants there will be.

What do you propose, surrender and welcome our new viral overlords? You might find that the complacency of the younger age groups who think it won't affect them changes when a new variant emerges that does affect them. Maybe not to kill them, although there would inevitably be some of that, but to give them a nasty debilitating illness that lasts for 6 months or so, as well as a few time bombs placed in vital organs which will go off later in life.

There is enough vaccine made or makable to get control, and many borders aren't that open right now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 19, 2021)

hovis said:



			I've noticed that we seemed to have hit a plateau with around 12,000 infections a day
		
Click to expand...

Yes this week the level of cases dropping has slowed down - still a drop from last week , also a slight drop in the deaths as well 

The Zoe app guy believes we have now hit the levels we had when we left the first lockdown and he expects those infections to drop significantly over the next month as the weather gets better and vaccine helps reduce infections


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 19, 2021)

Drop in Scottish covid figures is beginning to look very positive, 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-56045459


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## Captainron (Feb 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Just a query @Ethan  on the South African variant that's causing concern; cases and deaths in the UK to date, probably very few SA variant, are 59k per 1 million cases and 1750 deaths per 1 million. The SA variant, in SA, is showing a lot lower at 25k cases/1m and 815 deaths/1m. Why the huge emphasis on the SA variant?
		
Click to expand...

You can’t escape South Africans!


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 19, 2021)

We need some better names for these variants.     Dave Smith's Variant.    The Amanda Holden one.     The February variant brought to you by Pepsi Max.   I am sure the collective minds here can think of a few more.


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## banjofred (Feb 19, 2021)

Spanish Inquisition? Nobody can escape that one.....


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## pauljames87 (Feb 19, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			We need some better names for these variants.     Dave Smith's Variant.    The Amanda Holden one.     The February variant brought to you by Pepsi Max.   I am sure the collective minds here can think of a few more.
		
Click to expand...

I think we should make the variants after celebs who break the rules

The Rita ora variant for example

Then it might hit home how their actions cost life's


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think we should make the variants after celebs who break the rules

The Rita ora variant for example

Then it might hit home how *their actions cost life's*

Click to expand...


That’s a heck of a leap there 

Whilst it’s not good people breaking lockdown rules - suggest that action costs life’s is a poor leap 


anyway 

7 day average Covid data for the UK is as follows:

Cases: Down 20.3% ↓

Patients admitted to hospital: Down 24.3% ↓

Deaths: Down 27.7% ↓


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## Tashyboy (Feb 19, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			We need some better names for these variants.     Dave Smith's Variant.    The Amanda Holden one.     The February variant brought to you by Pepsi Max.   I am sure the collective minds here can think of a few more.
		
Click to expand...

The Chinese takeaway 👍


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## pauljames87 (Feb 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s a heck of a leap there

Whilst it’s not good people breaking lockdown rules - suggest that action costs life’s is a poor leap


anyway

7 day average Covid data for the UK is as follows:

Cases: Down 20.3% ↓

Patients admitted to hospital: Down 24.3% ↓

Deaths: Down 27.7% ↓
		
Click to expand...

It's not a leap at all, any break of the rules adds to the spread that's why they are rules, pushes R up which spreads covid and kills more 

I'e why they said meet up for Xmas kill your nan in new year

Fines don't work for celebs they just pay them 

So the Kyle walker wave and the ora variant will do nicely 

You can put all the postive numbers up but end of day even with things going down people are still dying.


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## larmen (Feb 19, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The Chinese takeaway 👍
		
Click to expand...

44 with fried rice?


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## larmen (Feb 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s a heck of a leap there
7 day average Covid data for the UK is as follows:

Cases: Down 20.3% ↓

Patients admitted to hospital: Down 24.3% ↓

Deaths: Down 27.7% ↓
		
Click to expand...

Whohooo, 5 more weeks and we are done! ;-)
I know that is not how the math works.

Serious question, do we know which value we are trending towards? Is there a floor value which is 'acceptable'? And have we got the math that under current trends would tell us when we are there?


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## anotherdouble (Feb 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			Whohooo, 5 more weeks and we are done! ;-)
I know that is not how the math works.

Serious question, do we know which value we are trending towards? Is there a floor value which is 'acceptable'? And have we got the math that under current trends would tell us when we are there?
		
Click to expand...

Some reports say cases each day must be below 1K before the locks are undone. Some scientists are saying that cases per day are halving every 15 days. If current daily cases are around 12,000, then my maths calculate the locks are sealed for approx 45 days. Low and behold that takes us to around April 1, which miraculously ties in with Northern Irelands announcement the other day.


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## larmen (Feb 19, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Some reports say cases each day must be below 1K before the locks are undone. Some scientists are saying that cases per day are halving every 15 days. If current daily cases are around 12,000, then my maths calculate the locks are sealed for approx 45 days. Low and behold that takes us to around April 1, which miraculously ties in with Northern Irelands announcement the other day.
		
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Cheers. 1k a day seems a low target. I think if we are on 12 now that makes it roughly 8 more weeks (down to 6, 3, 1.5, 0.8) and little bit into April. I hope they don't open up for Easter then, Christmas didn't go to well.

Saying that, Scotland and N. Ireland did open schools which I am hoping for as well, but it might have an effect on the half-life number in teh calculations.



Traminator said:



			MATH*S* 😡😅
		
Click to expand...

Well, I learned Mathematik when I went to school, and now teaching the 4 year old just 'numbers' in home schooling. Will progress to maths eventually.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 19, 2021)

anotherdouble said:



			Some reports say cases each day must be below 1K before the locks are undone. Some scientists are saying that cases per day are halving every 15 days. If current daily cases are around 12,000, then my maths calculate the locks are sealed for approx 45 days. Low and behold that takes us to around April 1, which miraculously ties in with Northern Irelands announcement the other day.
		
Click to expand...

If we have to wait until it’s under 1k then that’s maybe not going to be until roughly late May - last year before wide testing it didn’t get below 1k until middle of June and then only for a couple of weeks at most

They mention that they will use the data instead of dates but with the furlough scheme due to finish end of March that’s got to be some date they will use.

The most promising news which could help that number come down is the affect the vaccine appears to be having on infections - if it does help infections as well as expected then the 1k could be reached by the end of March. Maybe that’s why people are talking about spectators at football etc


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## SaintHacker (Feb 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They mention that they will use the data instead of dates but with the furlough scheme due to finish end of March that’s got to be some date they will use.
c
		
Click to expand...

With the talk of the easing being irreversible and some of the other rumours doing the rounds I wonder if we are approaching the point that we have to open up or just run oit of money? Furlough has been in for nearly a year now and has cost the country billions, while tax revenue has been destroyed due to the millions being furloughed. Sooner or later the magic money tree is going to run out...


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## SaintHacker (Feb 19, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I was just messing around, apologies if you're not British. 🙂
Math is the horrible Yank version of maths.
		
Click to expand...

He's American 😉


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## Pants (Feb 19, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Spanish Inquisition? Nobody can escape that one.....
		
Click to expand...

Nobody expects that ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			Cheers. 1k a day seems a low target. I think if we are on 12 now that makes it roughly 8 more weeks (down to 6, 3, 1.5, 0.8) and little bit into April. I hope they don't open up for Easter then, Christmas didn't go to well.

Saying that, Scotland and N. Ireland did open schools which I am hoping for as well, but it might have an effect on the half-life number in teh calculations.


Well, I learned Mathematik when I went to school, and _now teaching the 4 year old just 'numbers' _in home schooling. Will progress to maths eventually.
		
Click to expand...

...that’s arithmetic (note - never arithmetics 😊)....back in the day when we still used Napier’s rods, for mathematics we got trig and calculus lobbed in...arithmetic’s the easy day-2-day stuff 😘


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2021)

If infections are at 1,500 per day but none of those go into hospital due to age, health, vaccine etc then the number of infections stops being relevant doesn't it?


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## IainP (Feb 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			Whohooo, 5 more weeks and we are done! ;-)
I know that is not how the math works.

Serious question, do we know which value we are trending towards? Is there a floor value which is 'acceptable'? And have we got the math that under current trends would tell us when we are there?
		
Click to expand...

I'd been mulling over similar here https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/coronavirus-how-is-it-has-it-affected-you.104530/post-2310600

Didn't have an answer though!


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## IainP (Feb 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If infections are at 1,500 per day but none of those go into hospital due to age, health, vaccine etc then the number of infections stops being relevant doesn't it?
		
Click to expand...

Seems a fairly sensible way of looking at things. Only thought is during the two bad phases we went through I had a feeling a lot of bad things happened outside of hospital also  - but we may be past that


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## IainP (Feb 20, 2021)

hovis said:



			I've noticed that we seemed to have hit a plateau with around 12,000 infections a day
		
Click to expand...

I was similarly noticing our European counterparts like France, Italy,  Spain, Germany seem to have similarly plateaued,  some maybe creeping up. So maybe that's how it will be for a while


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## D-S (Feb 20, 2021)

ONS survey reports a 31% decline in infections from previous week and 7 day average of cases was 20% lower this week than last week, so I’m not sure where the ‘plateau’ comments come from.


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

IainP said:



			I was similarly noticing our European counterparts like France, Italy,  Spain, Germany seem to have similarly plateaued,  some maybe creeping up. So maybe that's how it will be for a while
		
Click to expand...

I think it’s important to look at the daily average, rather than daily figures in isolation. Whilst the last few days seem to have seen a plateau, the weekly trend is still very definitely down.

With vaccines appearing to me making an impact I feel more positive now than I have in a long time.


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## hovis (Feb 20, 2021)

D-S said:



			ONS survey reports a 31% decline in infections from previous week and 7 day average of cases was 20% lower this week than last week, so I’m not sure where the ‘plateau’ comments come from.
		
Click to expand...

That was purely from observations in regards to the daily infection rates.  Each day was seeing a significant drops when infections where high but durring the last week to 10 days the weekday numbers doesn't seem to want to drop past the 12,000 ish mark.  I'm not saying they're not coming down I'm saying the rate in which they have gone down seems to be tailing off


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2021)

Observation my lad made yesterday on relaxing and reopening...his sector (performing arts) has been wrecked by the pandemic and a lot of lives and careers have - at best - crashed to a halt - for many wrecked. And as desperate as he is (and he is feeling very desperate) he wants relaxing and reopening to be slow and careful.

His conversations with friends and colleagues in the sector tell him that once reopened they absolutely must have some stability and level of certainty...the sector and those working in it just cannot face or cope with any prospect of further closures, shutdowns or lockdowns - much has to be planned, arranged, booked many months if not more than a year in advance...and so as depressed and desperate as he is...slow and careful.

And if he could (but as he can’t I’ll do it for him) he would plead with all those feeling fed up and keen to reopen very quickly, please please just be patient and do what is asked of us; please don’t go pushing the boundaries or breaking the rules, because many people’s careers and lives depend upon us - a society as a whole and as one - getting this right.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 20, 2021)

The sheer pettiness of some people.   A wonderful announcement that care home residents would be allowed to have one visitor each.   So someone else has to immediately announce she will allow two.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The sheer pettiness of some people.   A wonderful announcement that care home residents would be allowed to have one visitor each.   So someone else has to immediately announce she will allow two.
		
Click to expand...

I was reading SILH post and totally agreed on a steady opening of lockdown ( and I use that term very loosely). I was going to reply saying as much as I agree I have a feeling it would be more like a stampede once the door is slightly opened. PS, your post. Confirms what I think may well happen. People extracting the urine.


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

I’m not a fan on the Daily Mail, far from it. But a friend sent me the link below and, if this sort of behaviour is replicated elsewhere, which it doubtless is, then it’s a national outrage.


https://mol.im/a/9279767


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## Ethan (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not a fan on the Daily Mail, far from it. But a friend sent me the link below and, if this sort of behaviour is replicated elsewhere, which it doubtless is, then it’s a national outrage.


https://mol.im/a/9279767

Click to expand...

The writer (and the Dad) did not appear to really believe in Covid. He died 2 weeks after the last negative test. He could have 50 negative tests before that and it would still be irrelevant. The writer does not mention whether there was Covid circulating or whether his terminal symptoms were typical or not. She also appears too think she knows better how to complete a Medical Certificate of Cause of Death better then the doctor. She is wrong. It is perfectly proper to put down something that is reasonably suspected even if not proven. This is the significant question. If there was Covid circulating and the Dad had a high temp and other Covid typical symptoms, on top of his COPD, then it is quite reasonable. Because there was no positive test, the death will not be counted in the official death within 28 day count.

A national outrage? Really. Don't be silly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The sheer pettiness of some people.   A wonderful announcement that care home residents would be allowed to have one visitor each.   So someone else has to immediately announce she will allow two.
		
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I heard one caller to a radio programme moan that if an elderly relative has a son and a daughter then only one of them would be able to visit.  Yes - we get the dilemma over who should be able to visit...but come on...patience...I’m sure the parent will be delighted so see their son or daughter.


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The writer (and the Dad) did not appear to really believe in Covid. He died 2 weeks after the last negative test. He could have 50 negative tests before that and it would still be irrelevant. The writer does not mention whether there was Covid circulating or whether his terminal symptoms were typical or not. She also appears too think she knows better how to complete a Medical Certificate of Cause of Death better then the doctor. She is wrong. It is perfectly proper to put down something that is reasonably suspected even if not proven. This is the significant question. If there was Covid circulating and the Dad had a high temp and other Covid typical symptoms, on top of his COPD, then it is quite reasonable. Because there was no positive test, the death will not be counted in the official death within 28 day count.

A national outrage? Really. Don't be silly.
		
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So the GP who saw this man on the day he died saying that the only symptom the 99 year old COPD sufferer was exhibiting was that he was a little chesty doesn’t ring any alarm bells with you?

As someone who has spent a lifetime drawing the professional distinction between reasonable suspicion and assumption, if the author’s account is remotely accurate then I have a huge issue with the doctor recording this as a Covid death based on an assumption. That assumption itself seems to be that, because others in the establishment had Covid, then it must follow this 99 year old COPD sufferer who was a little chesty must have died from it.

The figures we are quoted daily on the news always come with the caveat “died within 28 days of a positive Covid test”, and yet here we have a clear example of someone who doubtless features in the death toll who has never returned a positive test. His death was registered as a Covid death based on nothing more than an assumption. Whilst this may well be acceptable within medical circles, we are told that we have now seen nearly 120,000 deaths in the U.K. where the deceased had tested positive for the disease within 28 days of their death.

Quite clearly we are not being told the truth. You might not think that’s an outrage, but I most certainly do.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I heard one caller to a radio programme moan that if an elderly relative has a son and a daughter then only one of them would be able to visit.  Yes - we get the dilemma over who should be able to visit...but come on...patience...I’m sure the parent will be delighted so see their son or daughter.
		
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It's pathetic isn't it. The alternative could potentially be both go, every relative goes and the elderly relative catches covid and dies. Adults behaving like spoilt children is annoying me hugely during this, they need to grow up.


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's pathetic isn't it. The alternative could potentially be both go, every relative goes and the elderly relative catches covid and dies. Adults behaving like spoilt children is annoying me hugely during this, they need to grow up.
		
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A lot of homes now have the lateral flow test facility in place which takes approx 30 mins. With the amount of time care home residents have been without outside contact getting the max number of safe visitors has to be a priority for this sector.


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## Ethan (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			So the GP who saw this man on the day he died saying that the only symptom the 99 year old COPD sufferer was exhibiting was that he was a little chesty doesn’t ring any alarm bells with you?

As someone who has spent a lifetime drawing the professional distinction between reasonable suspicion and assumption, if the author’s account is remotely accurate then I have a huge issue with the doctor recording this as a Covid death based on an assumption. That assumption itself seems to be that, because others in the establishment had Covid, then it must follow this 99 year old COPD sufferer who was a little chesty must have died from it.

The figures we are quoted daily on the news always come with the caveat “died within 28 days of a positive Covid test”, and yet here we have a clear example of someone who doubtless features in the death toll who has never returned a positive test. His death was registered as a Covid death based on nothing more than an assumption. Whilst this may well be acceptable within medical circles, we are told that we have now seen nearly 120,000 deaths in the U.K. where the deceased had tested positive for the disease within 28 days of their death.

Quite clearly we are not being told the truth. You might not think that’s an outrage, but I most certainly do.
		
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"If the author's account is remotely accurate" is the critical phrase here. If you were considering the distinction between reasonable suspicion and assumption (although they do not sit on the same spectrum, really), then you would consider the writer's track record of accurate, reasonable and balanced writing. Having done so in this case, you might then safely disregard much of what she says.

She says he was a bit chesty. That is a very broad terms which covers a range of different and changeable features. Her doctor may have elicited more detail and appropriate features. She also doesn't mention whether Covid was widespread in the facility. 

This person did not have a positive Covid test, so will not be included in the count of people who died within 28 days of a positive test, because they key dependent element is missing, the positive test. I do hope you apply other logical rules better in your lifetime of drawing the distinction between suspicion and assumption, perhaps ensuring that you understand the charge or suspected crime before charging in. However, it is not unreasonable to assume that someone with age and chest vulnerabilities in a place with a transmissible disease circulating may have caught it.

Please feel free to amend your outrage accordingly.


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			"If the author's account is remotely accurate" is the critical phrase here. If you were considering the distinction between reasonable suspicion and assumption (although they do not sit on the same spectrum, really), then you would consider the writer's track record of accurate, reasonable and balanced writing. Having done so in this case, you might then safely disregard much of what she says.

She says he was a bit chesty. That is a very broad terms which covers a range of different and changeable features. Her doctor may have elicited more detail and appropriate features. She also doesn't mention whether Covid was widespread in the facility.

This person did not have a positive Covid test, so will not be included in the count of people who died within 28 days of a positive test, because they key dependent element is missing, the positive test. I do hope you apply other logical rules better in your lifetime of drawing the distinction between suspicion and assumption, perhaps ensuring that you understand the charge or suspected crime before charging in. However, it is not unreasonable to assume that someone with age and chest vulnerabilities in a place with a transmissible disease circulating may have caught it.

Please feel free to amend your outrage accordingly.
		
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You talk an enormous amount of sense on this subject, Ethan. What a crying shame that you are patently incapable of doing so without patronising anyone who utters a word you disagree with.

I’m 54 years of age. Kindly don’t talk down to me as though I’m a toddler.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 20, 2021)

Why am I not surprised?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-56138699


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2021)

A good pal of mine in the RBL had a stroke a month or so ago. He is now out of hospital. Before he was discharged he had a negative Covid test. The day after he got home he got a phone call to say the guy in the bed at the side of him tested positive. Two days later he was positive. His wife who had worse symptoms of Covid tested negative. A good pal of mine was on Oxygen March/April 2020. He has 3 tests all negative. He asked the dr was it Pnumonia. Dr said “ I don’t care what tithe Covid tests say” you have had Covid.
What am trying to say is that we are still living and learning from this savage Virus. Sometimes we get it wrong and we learn from it, sometimes we get it right. But it’s not a national outrage for me, far from it.


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## Ethan (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			You talk an enormous amount of sense on this subject, Ethan. What a crying shame that you are patently incapable of doing so without patronising anyone who utters a word you disagree with.

I’m 54 years of age. Kindly don’t talk down to me as though I’m a toddler.
		
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Well, good for you, but if you want to have an adult conversation, apply some cortical thinking and don't throw your toys out afterwards.

You went off on a rant of "outrage" about the data on people who die after a positive test whilst also ranting about this man who tested negative, without seemingly spotting the obvious flaw in your argument. And it was in a piece in the Daily Outrage and written by a Covid skeptic. I think you should apply your years of life experience to connecting the two assertions. You also, in passing, tell off the GP for failing to properly evaluate the likely cause of death, saying his stated cause was an "assumption" without knowing what that was based on, or indeed what is acceptable on a death certificate.

I didn't talk down to you like a toddler, some of my words had too many syllables for that, but you jumped to judgement like a toddler offered a biscuit before his dinner, so I think you may subconsciously recognise it in yourself.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 20, 2021)

David had his vaccine yesterday and a sleepless night as he felt feverish and generally rubbish. I wonder if, having had the virus in November, he's reacted as if it was his 2nd jab which seems to invoke more reaction? Anyhow, I keep telling him it's a good thing as his immune system is clearly working fast and hard!


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## Kellfire (Feb 20, 2021)




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## Ethan (Feb 20, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			David had his vaccine yesterday and a sleepless night as he felt feverish and generally rubbish. I wonder if, having had the virus in November, he's reacted as if it was his 2nd jab which seems to invoke more reaction? Anyhow, I keep telling him it's a good thing as his immune system is clearly working fast and hard!
		
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Yes, that is well noted. The 2nd vacc seems to induce a stronger response, not surprising as your immune system is already hyped up and ready for action, so the same thing may well happen with the natural infection then vacc. France have decided to only offer one vacc to people with proven prior Covid infection. There probably isn't much to be gained from a booster vacc although it is quite complicated to set the system up to identify those people.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, that is well noted. The 2nd vacc seems to induce a stronger response, not surprising as your immune system is already hyped up and ready for action, so the same thing may well happen with the natural infection then vacc. France have decided to only offer one vacc to people with proven prior Covid infection. There probably isn't much to be gained from a booster vacc although it is quite complicated to set the system up to identify those people.
		
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Thanks Ethan. I'll have the spare room prepared for when he has his second dose!


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			So the GP who saw this man on the day he died saying that the only symptom the 99 year old COPD sufferer was exhibiting was that he was a little chesty doesn’t ring any alarm bells with you?

As someone who has spent a lifetime drawing the professional distinction between reasonable suspicion and assumption, if the author’s account is remotely accurate then I have a huge issue with the doctor recording this as a Covid death based on an assumption. That assumption itself seems to be that, because others in the establishment had Covid, then it must follow this 99 year old COPD sufferer who was a little chesty must have died from it.

The figures we are quoted daily on the news always come with the caveat “died within 28 days of a positive Covid test”, and yet here we have a clear example of someone who doubtless features in the death toll who has never returned a positive test. His death was registered as a Covid death based on nothing more than an assumption. Whilst this may well be acceptable within medical circles, we are told that we have now seen nearly 120,000 deaths in the U.K. where the deceased had tested positive for the disease within 28 days of their death.

Quite clearly we are not being told the truth. You might not think that’s an outrage, but I most certainly do.
		
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Billy, hang on, there is another way of looking at this. As I see it....

The writer has made one exaggeration  at least. As I understand it,where she says that two Drs were needed for a death certificate, but now because of Covid only one is.
Two Drs were only needed if it were a cremation. One was sufficient for a burial. That has been the case for years, hasn't it?
The writer reports that Covid was present on her dads floor among staff and patients, and within days he gets chesty. He dies and , agreed no proof, but the GP surely has reasonable suspicion that Covid caused his deterioration.

She agrees that his death is not included in the statistics of " death within 28 days of being tested positive "
Is this not the criterion for the death figures as given in the daily update we see on tv? 
And therefore his death will not be part of those figures.

Now, as to why we have the way the death figures are compiled and reported.
I imagine that when deciding this, the authorities knew that if the figures were only those "known and proved" to have died from Covid, as opposed to another cause, then their political and Press opponents would be accusing them of playing down the figures to hide their"incompetence"
E.g. Mrs Bloggs had Covid, which probably killed her, but you say she had a heart attack. She probably wouldn't have had a heart attack( if indeed she did ) if she hadn't had Covid.etc etc.

So I imagine that any whiff of Covid being involved had to mean an inclusion in the figures of some kind, 

In this case, do you really think that there was no way that Covid played a part in his death? No reasonable suspicion at all.?

This government has taken quite a lot of flack for having such high figures of Covid deaths compared with other Countries. Not something any government would want , IMO.
But I think they are erring on the principle of  ." Justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done "


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## Ethan (Feb 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Billy, hang on, there is another way of looking at this. As I see it....

The writer has made one exaggeration  at least. As I understand it,where she says that two Drs were needed for a death certificate, but now because of Covid only one is.
Two Drs were only needed if it were a cremation. One was sufficient for a burial. That has been the case for years, hasn't it?
The writer reports that Covid was present on her dads floor among staff and patients, and within days he gets chesty. He dies and , agreed no proof, but the GP surely has reasonable suspicion that Covid caused his deterioration.

She agrees that his death is not included in the statistics of " death within 28 days of being tested positive "
Is this not the criterion for the death figures as given in the daily update we see on tv?
And therefore his death will not be part of those figures.

Now, as to why we have the way the death figures are compiled and reported.
I imagine that when deciding this, the authorities knew that if the figures were only those "known and proved" to have died from Covid, as opposed to another cause, then their political and Press opponents would be accusing them of playing down the figures to hide their"incompetence"
E.g. Mrs Bloggs had Covid, which probably killed her, but you say she had a heart attack. She probably wouldn't have had a heart attack( if indeed she did ) if she hadn't had Covid.etc etc.

So I imagine that any whiff of Covid being involved had to mean an inclusion in the figures of some kind,

In this case, do you really think that there was no way that Covid played a part in his death? No reasonable suspicion at all.?

This government has taken quite a lot of flack for having such high figures of Covid deaths compared with other Countries. Not something any government would want , IMO.
But I think they are erring on the principle of  ." Justice must not only be done, but be seen to be done "
		
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You are correct. One doctor certifies death. The second doctor signing the crem form is not actually certifying death as such, and does not have to have ever seen the body. 

The death certificate has several layers of causation and in the example you give, could say 1.a. Covid-19, 1.b. Coronary artery disease, 1.c. Diabetes Mellitus, for example.


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## hovis (Feb 20, 2021)

Kellfire said:



View attachment 35135

Click to expand...

😂 😂 😂


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, good for you, but if you want to have an adult conversation, apply some cortical thinking and don't throw your toys out afterwards.

You went off on a rant of "outrage" about the data on people who die after a positive test whilst also ranting about this man who tested negative, without seemingly spotting the obvious flaw in your argument. And it was in a piece in the Daily Outrage and written by a Covid skeptic. I think you should apply your years of life experience to connecting the two assertions. You also, in passing, tell off the GP for failing to properly evaluate the likely cause of death, saying his stated cause was an "assumption" without knowing what that was based on, or indeed what is acceptable on a death certificate.

I didn't talk down to you like a toddler, some of my words had too many syllables for that, but you jumped to judgement like a toddler offered a biscuit before his dinner, so I think you may subconsciously recognise it in yourself.
		
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A rant? Really? I made an observation. An observation that the over recording of Covid deaths, if it is happening, is outrageous. I’m perfectly entitled to make that observation without you responding as though I am a three year old imbecile.

And here’s another observation I am perfectly entitled to make. You are clearly a very intelligent individual, who has been a source of sound, well evidenced information throughout this pandemic. Information which many here, myself included, have clearly found reassuring. But the way you debate issues, especially with those who offer a view you disagree with, is little short of insulting.

You’ll doubtless sit there having a good chuckle at this response, congratulating yourself on reeling in yet another online victim. Well, tiny things please tiny minds. Grow up, discuss issues adult to adult rather than parent to child, and I’m sure a lot more here would have far more respect for you, rather than dismissing you as an opinionated, blustering loudmouth.


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## Ethan (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			A rant? Really? I made an observation. An observation that the over recording of Covid deaths, if it is happening, is outrageous. I’m perfectly entitled to make that observation without you responding as though I am a three year old imbecile.

And here’s another observation I am perfectly entitled to make. You are clearly a very intelligent individual, who has been a source of sound, well evidenced information throughout this pandemic. Information which many here, myself included, have clearly found reassuring. But the way you debate issues, especially with those who offer a view you disagree with, is little short of insulting.

You’ll doubtless sit there having a good chuckle at this response, congratulating yourself on reeling in yet another online victim. Well, tiny things please tiny minds. Grow up, discuss issues adult to adult rather than parent to child, and I’m sure a lot more here would have far more respect for you, rather than dismissing you as an opinionated, blustering loudmouth.
		
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You keep referring to yourself with insulting terms I never used. Seems like you are doing all the insulting yourself. 

You did not just make an observation. You cited a crappy opinion piece to support the idea that people are being wrongly classified as having Covid, and that doctors appear to apply little thought to certification. You are wrong on both of those, and the article, as biased and uninformed as it is, supports neither assertion. Firstly, I take exception to my colleagues in the medical profession being criticised by people who do not understand the issues, and secondly the subtext is part of a Covid denier message, which is objectionable in its own right. 

I am really sorry that you are unable to critically evaluate a story written in an unreliable piece of Andrex like The Daily Wail. Don't turn the anger of realising your mistakes on me. Learn something from it.  

I could give exactly no tosses whatsoever what you think of me. You don't know me, and from the available evidence, don't know much.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not a fan on the Daily Mail, far from it. But a friend sent me the link below and, if this sort of behaviour is replicated elsewhere, which it doubtless is, then it’s a national outrage.


https://mol.im/a/9279767

Click to expand...

If the suggestion is that doctors/politicians are falsely inflating the number of deaths to scare people, would you rather they hide the number of covid deaths to make it seem less serious?


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If the suggestion is that doctors/politicians are falsely inflating the number of deaths to scare people, would you rather they hide the number of covid deaths to make it seem less serious?
		
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I just want them reported accurately. Not too much to ask.


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## D-S (Feb 20, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363137718981689348


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## pauljames87 (Feb 20, 2021)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363137718981689348

Click to expand...

Be interested to compare Scotland to England numbers considering Scotland allowed the sport and we didn't


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## IainP (Feb 20, 2021)

Guess it was only a matter of time..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-56138699


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363159532898287619

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363159604817977346


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## Backache (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not a fan on the Daily Mail, far from it. But a friend sent me the link below and, if this sort of behaviour is replicated elsewhere, which it doubtless is, then it’s a national outrage.


https://mol.im/a/9279767

Click to expand...

To summarise from the report 
Elderly man in a care home facility gets an acute respiratory infection and dies at a time when covid was known to be active in that home, a test was refused(not unreasonable if he felt it uncomfortable) At a time when there are from surveillance studies very few other repiratory viruses prevalent in the community GP surmises that the most likely cause of death was covid.
He's probably right but without a post mortem we can't be certain and there will inevitably be a few misdiagnoses in both directions ,not sure that it's a national outrage.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I just want them reported accurately. Not too much to ask.
		
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Yes, that would be highly desirable. But I don't think it is as easy as people might think.
To be 100 per cent accurate as to whether Covid was the cause , as opposed to contributory cause, or present but not the cause, would need, I opine, an autopsy.
Clearly impractical in all deaths where Covid is "in the vicinity ", so to speak.
Germany did it different from us, and might be subject to accusations  I have earlier referred to ( don't know if that happened).
But whichever way is chosen, there seem to be critics of it.
And, having read the article, I still think our way of recording is reasonable.
In your profession, if asked to make an opinion on the cause of death, you would surely have considered it highly likely that Covid was at least contributory, if not the main cause.
You didn't have those three stripes for no reason😀


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

Backache said:



			To summarise from the report
Elderly man in a care home facility gets an acute respiratory infection and dies at a time when covid was known to be active in that home, a test was refused(not unreasonable if he felt it uncomfortable) At a time when there are from surveillance studies very few other repiratory viruses prevalent in the community GP surmises that the most likely cause of death was covid.
He's probably right but without a post mortem we can't be certain and there will inevitably be a few misdiagnoses in both directions ,not sure that it's a national outrage.
		
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Where does it say he developed an acute respiratory infection? He had long standing COPD and was described as a little chesty.

If there was any suggestion that he had *developed *an acute respiratory infection then I would not have made the observation I did, because quite clearly it would seem more reasonable in those circumstances to suspect Covid. 

My point here is two fold. First, on the face of it and as described by the author of the article the assumption seems to be a leap of faith.

But more importantly, and this point seems to be getting lost in the debate, he did not die within 28 days of a positive Covid test. If his death is included in the statistics, which of course it will have been, then why for months have we been told daily that the number of deaths refers to those who have died within 28 days of a positive test? Quite clearly that is not the case at all and consequently the figures should be viewed with some suspicion.


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## Backache (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Where does it say he developed an acute respiratory infection? He had long standing COPD and was described as a little chesty.

If there was any suggestion that he had *developed *an acute respiratory infection then I would not have made the observation I did, because quite clearly it would seem more reasonable in those circumstances to suspect Covid.

My point here is two fold. First, on the face of it and as described by the author of the article the assumption seems to be a leap of faith.

But more importantly, and this point seems to be getting lost in the debate, he did not die within 28 days of a positive Covid test. If his death is included in the statistics, which of course it will have been, then why for months have we been told daily that the number of deaths refers to those who have died within 28 days of a positive test? Quite clearly that is not the case at all and consequently the figures should be viewed with some suspicion.
		
Click to expand...

He was given antibiotics because he was chesty which implies that he had an infection in his chest or respiratory infection.

Deaths from covid are reported in two ways one is to give a quick update on which way the deaths are heading and are the ones regularly announced each day and are deaths within 28 days of a first positive test. He will not have been included in this tally.
The second is those updated by the ONS on a weekly basis from death certificates which will rule out a few of the rare cases in the first instance such as the old trope of someone getting run over by a bus after a test. However it will include others who take more than 28 days to die after their first test not uncommon in ITU and those where the diagnosis was made clinically.
No count is ever going to be 100% accurate but there is no reason to believe that UK numbers are inaccurate.


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## Billysboots (Feb 20, 2021)

Backache said:



			He was given antibiotics because he was chesty which implies that he had an infection in his chest or respiratory infection.

Deaths from covid are reported in two ways one is to give a quick update on which way the deaths are heading and are the ones regularly announced each day and are deaths within 28 days of a first positive test. He will not have been included in this tally.
The second is those updated by the ONS on a weekly basis from death certificates which will rule out a few of the rare cases in the first instance such as the old trope of someone getting run over by a bus after a test. However it will include others who take more than 28 days to die after their first test not uncommon in ITU and those where the diagnosis was made clinically.
No count is ever going to be 100% accurate but there is no reason to believe that UK numbers are inaccurate.
		
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My misunderstanding then. Thanks for clearing it up. And for doing so without referring to me as silly, or trying to patronise me in any way.

😇


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## Leftitshort (Feb 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If the suggestion is that doctors/politicians are falsely inflating the number of deaths?
		
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There is a school of though that supports that


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## Leftitshort (Feb 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I just want them reported accurately. Not too much to ask.
		
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The reporting has been a bone of contention from the beginning. Starting with different reporting processes between different countries, how can you compare? Including with & of definitions.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 20, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			There is a school of though that supports that
		
Click to expand...

Surely in that case you look at the excess deaths figure for the year. There were 85000 excess deaths recorded last year - and that's only up to November. By the time deaths from December to now are taken in to account I don't see how people can say the numbers are being falsely inflated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55631693


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## Leftitshort (Feb 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Surely in that case you look at the excess deaths figure for the year. There were 85000 excess deaths recorded last year - and that's only up to November. By the time deaths from December to now are taken in to account I don't see how people can say the numbers are being falsely inflated.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55631693

Click to expand...

I’m not saying I buy into it, just saying there’s a school of thought. There have been excess deaths, but has the cause been accurately recorded? Also it will be interesting (if that’s the correct term😱) to look at the death rate in retrospect over the next 5 years.


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## IainP (Feb 20, 2021)

This is maybe a little interesting  - might speculate that deaths from things like flu, road collisions, late night gatherings etc. may be lower than normal. Note the 3rd bar from December to February


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## D-S (Feb 20, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			I’m not saying I buy into it, just saying there’s a school of thought. There have been excess deaths, but has the cause been accurately recorded? Also it will be interesting (if that’s the correct term😱) to look at the death rate in retrospect over the next 5 years.
		
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Excess deaths for the past 3 years, see link below, certainly show that the last 12 months have been exceptional to 
say the least.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/


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## Leftitshort (Feb 20, 2021)

D-S said:



			Excess deaths for the past 3 years, see link below, certainly show that the last 12 months have been exceptional to
say the least.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/

Click to expand...

Probably too early.....but I was thinking about the next 5 years. Do the next 5 track below average? Something for our kids to discuss.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 20, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Probably too early.....but I was thinking about the next 5 years. Do the next 5 track below average? Something for our kids to discuss.
		
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Depending on what happens with Covid and the vaccine I would expect deaths over the next few years to be below average. Purely based on the fact that many of those who would have died in the following years will have died in the last 12 months. We've had approx 85000 excess deaths this year and most of those will have been in the over 75's. This means that there will be fewer old people dying in the coming years.


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## Ethan (Feb 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depending on what happens with Covid and the vaccine I would expect deaths over the next few years to be below average. Purely based on the fact that many of those who would have died in the following years will have died in the last 12 months. We've had approx 85000 excess deaths this year and most of those will have been in the over 75's. This means that there will be fewer old people dying in the coming years.
		
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Yeah, Covid has thinned out the population of people most likely to leave us in the next few years. Could be offset somewhat by an increased number of deaths from people with medium term complications of Covid causing organs failures of one sort or another. Lots of evidence of people with medium level Covid having inflammatory effects in heart, kidneys etc. I am also worried about effects in bone marrow and other systems which could cause other nasty changes.


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## yandabrown (Feb 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Observation my lad made yesterday on relaxing and reopening...his sector (performing arts) has been wrecked by the pandemic and a lot of lives and careers have - at best - crashed to a halt - for many wrecked. And as desperate as he is (and he is feeling very desperate) he wants relaxing and reopening to be slow and careful.

His conversations with friends and colleagues in the sector tell him that once reopened they absolutely must have some stability and level of certainty...the sector and those working in it just cannot face or cope with any prospect of further closures, shutdowns or lockdowns - much has to be planned, arranged, booked many months if not more than a year in advance...and so as depressed and desperate as he is...slow and careful.

And if he could (but as he can’t I’ll do it for him) he would plead with all those feeling fed up and keen to reopen very quickly, please please just be patient and do what is asked of us; please don’t go pushing the boundaries or breaking the rules, because many people’s careers and lives depend upon us - a society as a whole and as one - getting this right.
		
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Has your lad seen this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...to-help-as-jobless-roadies-turn-to-food-banks


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			Has your lad seen this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...to-help-as-jobless-roadies-turn-to-food-banks

Click to expand...

Many thanks for that...he’s not a roadie as such, but works with the stagehands as well as the artists themselves - and is in the identical situation in respect of the context of his work and how the work comes his way - so the article describes exactly where he is - and like those talked about in the article - his applications for grants failed and he doesn’t qualify for any of the other government schemes the Treasury Spokesman mentioned or they make no sense for him.  So one of the many in his sector who have fallen through the gaps.  I haven’t though heard him mention the stagehand fund the artists have set up.  I’ll pass the article to him.  Many thanks again.

He‘s heard that one of the tours he was going to do last year - Lloyd Cole- has been rescheduled for 2022 - simply with so much uncertainty and concern about things getting shut down again this year many artists and bands are going to do this...just forget about 2021 also...why my lad is desperate that we relax things slowly and carefully.


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## larmen (Feb 21, 2021)

Traminator said:



https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...d-of-july-under-pms-accelerated-plan-12224309

Click to expand...

They were off with their targets for testing, but in the vaccines they did a better job with predictions so this might be feasible.

How long would the studies with the under 17s last, could they be vaccinated directly after?


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## road2ruin (Feb 21, 2021)

Some really positive news from Israel about the Pfizer vaccine....


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			Has your lad seen this? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...to-help-as-jobless-roadies-turn-to-food-banks

Click to expand...

Mark Knopfler did something as well.

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/win-mark-knopfler-guitar


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Some really positive news from Israel about the Pfizer vaccine....
		
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I wonder how it works amongst the unvaccinated educated population, as opposed to the unvaccinated naive population? 

Seriously, does no one proof road these fact sheets or press releases any more?


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wonder how it works amongst the unvaccinated educated population, as opposed to the unvaccinated naive population? 

Seriously, does no one proof road these fact sheets or press releases any more? 

Click to expand...

Which bit should have been proof read? Seems ok to me?


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Which bit should have been proof read? Seems ok to me?
		
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Well there's a bit of a clue in the quoted post.  Do you really think that it should be referencing the unvaccinated *naive* population or the unvaccinated *native* population.  

I'm not aware that the naivety of the recipient should have any effect on the efficacy of the vaccine but if it does please explain it to me.


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Well there's a bit of a clue in the quoted post.  Do you really think that it should be referencing the unvaccinated *naive* population or the unvaccinated *native* population. 

I'm not aware that the naivety of the recipient should have any effect on the efficacy of the vaccine but if it does please explain it to me.
		
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As far as I'm aware naive is a science term for not having had the vaccine/drug before


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			As far as I'm aware naive is a science term for not having had the vaccine/drug before
		
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Or the infection.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 21, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			As far as I'm aware naive is a science term for not having had the vaccine/drug before
		
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Vaccine-naive is, & if vaccine-naive population was in the release there would be no doubt; if it said unvaccinated population there would be no doubt; unvaccinated naive reads more as a double negative than a clear explanation.


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## funkycoldmedina (Feb 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Vaccine-naive is, & if vaccine-naive population was in the release there would be no doubt; if it said unvaccinated population there would be no doubt; unvaccinated naive reads more as a double negative than a clear explanation.
		
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As Ethan pointed out naive in this situation would mean hasn't been infected put alongside unvaccinated.


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## IainP (Feb 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Some really positive news from Israel about the Pfizer vaccine....
		
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And maybe a clue to the  "roadmap" here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56143126


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2021)

Seemingly there are 14m unused computers/laptops in British homes.
There is also 1m kids in poverty without access to a computer/laptop for home schooling/homework.
Please donate any excess computer/laptops to your local school or foodbank.


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seemingly there are 14m unused computers/laptops in British homes.
There is also 1m kids in poverty without access to a computer/laptop for home schooling/homework.
Please donate any excess computer/laptops to your local school or foodbank.
		
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A number of old computers will not run MS Teams which  is at the core of many online Schools operations.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2021)

drdel said:



			A number of old computers will not run MS Teams which  is at the core of many online Schools operations.
		
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My one did and was received with much joy.


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## Slime (Feb 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I wonder how it works amongst the unvaccinated educated population, as opposed to the unvaccinated naive population? 

Seriously, *does no one proof road these fact sheets *or press releases any more? 

Click to expand...

Ooops.


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2021)

Slime said:



			Ooops. 

Click to expand...

I assumed that was for comedic effect


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## banjofred (Feb 21, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seemingly there are 14m unused computers/laptops in British homes.
There is also 1m kids in poverty without access to a computer/laptop for home schooling/homework.
Please donate any excess computer/laptops to your local school or foodbank.
		
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What is the process? I would want an obvious guarantee that my laptop would be wiped completely (absolutely....no doubt about it....preferably right in front of me) of information. I wouldn't want to just hand it over to the school and hoped they did things right.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 21, 2021)

banjofred said:



			What is the process? I would want an obvious guarantee that my laptop would be wiped completely (absolutely....no doubt about it....preferably right in front of me) of information. I wouldn't want to just hand it over to the school and hoped they did things right.
		
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That's the issue for us as we have a few but not sure how 100% to ensure it's wiped.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 21, 2021)

@PhilTheFragger is probably the one to ask


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			That's the issue for us as we have a few but not sure how 100% to ensure it's wiped.
		
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banjofred said:



			What is the process? I would want an obvious guarantee that my laptop would be wiped completely (absolutely....no doubt about it....preferably right in front of me) of information. I wouldn't want to just hand it over to the school and hoped they did things right.
		
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Lady Doon does ours.
I don't think it is too difficult a process.
Something to do with factory settings I think but don't trust anything I say about teccy stuff.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363519611912781827


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 21, 2021)

Never mind schools and socialising. When’s the car wash’s opening up? That’s top of the list when chairman says so.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363522744458096643


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Lady Doon does ours.
I don't think it is too difficult a process.
Something to do with factory settings I think but don't trust anything I say about teccy stuff.
		
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Youll need to do far more than that to insure personal data is removed. If you do it through a reputable collection point they do the necessary.


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2021)

This could have gone in the irritation thread but it works here a bit better.
I am incredibly irritated that I'm starting to get stressed about what BigB is going to say tomorrow. 
I held it together through the first 2 lockdowns - did quite well really but this one has been more of a struggle 
For one reason and another I managed 7 working days between lockdowns 2 and 3, mainly the Mrs operation and Xmas so I've been off work, effectively since October.
The dodgy knee, that has mostly cleared up, has prevented me from doing much and to say these weeks have been like Groundhog day is a massive understatement 
Half the time I've no idea what day of the week it is because I don't need to know..I need to hear something..for me.
If we get nothing from BigB I may succumb to having to go and buy a large amount of beer.
I will also motion the next AGM to remove him as an Honorary Member....


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2021)

Easy to say I know but one of the things I learnt very early in life is never worry about things that you have no control over.


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Easy to say I know but one of the things I learnt very early in life is never worry about things that you have no control over.
		
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Something I try and live by.....
Works most of the time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			This could have gone in the irritation thread but it works here a bit better.
I am incredibly irritated that I'm starting to get stressed about what BigB is going to say tomorrow.
I held it together through the first 2 lockdowns - did quite well really but this one has been more of a struggle
For one reason and another I managed 7 working days between lockdowns 2 and 3, mainly the Mrs operation and Xmas so I've been off work, effectively since October.
The dodgy knee, that has mostly cleared up, has prevented me from doing much and to say these weeks have been like Groundhog day is a massive understatement
Half the time I've no idea what day of the week it is because I don't need to know..I need to hear something..for me.
If we get nothing from BigB I may succumb to having to go and buy a large amount of beer.
I will also motion the next AGM to remove him as an Honorary Member....
		
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An under the sea roundabout off the Isle of Man seems to be this weeks big idea.
Beam me up Scotty.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2021)

banjofred said:



			What is the process? I would want an obvious guarantee that my laptop would be wiped completely (absolutely....no doubt about it....preferably right in front of me) of information. I wouldn't want to just hand it over to the school and hoped they did things right.
		
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SaintHacker said:



@PhilTheFragger is probably the one to ask
		
Click to expand...

The only completely foolproof way is to replace the hard drive with a brand new one and to keep or destroy (cut in half) the hard drive with your data on it.

There are many programs available that will “wipe” your hard drive , they basically scramble the data , replacing the binary with random 0 &1 ‘s , they will do multiple passes and will be good enough for most

However a professional or crook may be able to reverse the process and of course the police have access to very sophisticated software that finds stuff

So it boils down to what is on your computer, and how incriminating it is 
👍


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## Imurg (Feb 21, 2021)

Oh......


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The only completely foolproof way is to replace the hard drive with a brand new one and to keep or destroy (cut in half) the hard drive with your data on it.

There are many programs available that will “wipe” your hard drive , they basically scramble the data , replacing the binary with random 0 &1 ‘s , they will do multiple passes and will be good enough for most

However a professional or crook may be able to reverse the process and of course the police have access to very sophisticated software that finds stuff

So it boils down to what is on your computer, and how incriminating it is
👍
		
Click to expand...

I think if you are concerned that GCHQ or the CIA will be interested in the contents of your hard disk, probably best not to donate.


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think if you are concerned that GCHQ or the CIA will be interested in the contents of your hard disk, probably best not to donate.
		
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If you’re that concerned, they know about you already!🤣🤣😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363551368842207240
🤞


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2021)

Me and Missis T went for our social distance walk today.  Bumped into next door neighbour just as we got home. It took her all of 30 seconds to have a rant. Her brother went for his Corona virus vaccination today. He is in his 50’s. Her kids call him “ uncle chunky”. It was his idea. Apparently he is very overweight. Anyway he got a phone call to book in for a vaccine as his BMI is very high. Hence he is a risk. She is livid. Ave never met him but her words “ he is a bone idle useless so and so”. I pointed out should he get Covid, strain on the NHS etc. She said it’s so unfair. 
Me and Missis T had a lovely de stress walk til we more or less got home. 😣


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## harpo_72 (Feb 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The only completely foolproof way is to replace the hard drive with a brand new one and to keep or destroy (cut in half) the hard drive with your data on it.

There are many programs available that will “wipe” your hard drive , they basically scramble the data , replacing the binary with random 0 &1 ‘s , they will do multiple passes and will be good enough for most

However a professional or crook may be able to reverse the process and of course the police have access to very sophisticated software that finds stuff

So it boils down to what is on your computer, and how incriminating it is
👍
		
Click to expand...

So in a way the inability to actually delete data properly is an infringement of human rights and who ever developed the hardware that doesn’t allow you to do this could be taken to court as all the others are just parasites playing on the hardware weaknesses... I know they have caught a few people off the back this capability but in the end no one is free no one has any secrets


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			So in a way the inability to actually delete data properly is an infringement of human rights and who ever developed the hardware that doesn’t allow you to do this could be taken to court as all the others are just parasites playing on the hardware weaknesses... I know they have caught a few people off the back this capability but in the end no one is free no one has any secrets
		
Click to expand...


Good luck with the court case 👍

Meanwhile back in the real world......


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 21, 2021)

Back in the late 90s we had someone leave and handed their PC in.  Apparently what was on it was described as "legendary, illegal, disturbing and at times, all three together".
We never could convince the Tech Leader to give us a showing.


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## banjofred (Feb 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The only completely foolproof way is to replace the hard drive with a brand new one and to keep or destroy (cut in half) the hard drive with your data on it.

There are many programs available that will “wipe” your hard drive , they basically scramble the data , replacing the binary with random 0 &1 ‘s , they will do multiple passes and will be good enough for most

However a professional or crook may be able to reverse the process and of course the police have access to very sophisticated software that finds stuff

So it boils down to what is on your computer, and how incriminating it is
👍
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, nothing tooooooo horrible on the computer. Only thing would be possible banking info that makes me paranoid. In the past I've just taken a hammer to the hard drive.....I guess it doesn't prevent the secret service from getting my info.......but I can live with that.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Sorry, nothing tooooooo horrible on the computer. Only thing would be possible banking info that makes me paranoid. In the past I've just taken a hammer to the hard drive.....I guess it doesn't prevent the secret service from getting my info.......but I can live with that.
		
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In that case download DBAN onto a bootable usb stick and off you go 👍


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## SaintHacker (Feb 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363551368842207240
🤞
		
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If thats accurate i just pray the foreign holidays bit incudes cruises


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Back in the late 90s we had someone leave and handed their PC in.  Apparently what was on it was described as "legendary, illegal, disturbing and at times, all three together".
We never could convince the Tech Leader to give us a showing.
		
Click to expand...


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 21, 2021)

Back on track guys 

Per lease 👍


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## pauljames87 (Feb 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363551368842207240
🤞
		
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That would be incredible if any bit true


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## harpo_72 (Feb 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Good luck with the court case 👍

Meanwhile back in the real world......
		
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GDPR cannot really be met can it ? Information never disappears unless you smash hard drives, who is going to bin assets like that??


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			GDPR cannot really be met can it ? Information never disappears unless you smash hard drives, who is going to bin assets like that??
		
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Hard drives shredded, enough reputable company’s do it so GDPR not an issue


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 21, 2021)

Anyway - back to Covid


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363480366397485056


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Anyway - back to Covid


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363480366397485056

Click to expand...

Hospital admissions and deaths select the older population in whom more vaccs have been given, so not a surprise the effect is seen more prominently there.


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## rudebhoy (Feb 22, 2021)

*Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.*
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
It is the first sign of the real world impact of the Covid vaccination programme in the UK.
Figures for England are expected to be released later.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56153600

that is great news.


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



*Covid vaccines have had a significant impact on the risk of serious illness in Scotland, an analysis shows.*
The work led by Public Health Scotland found by the fourth week after the first dose hospitalisations were reduced by 85% and 94% for the Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs respectively.
It is the first sign of the real world impact of the Covid vaccination programme in the UK.
Figures for England are expected to be released later.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56153600

that is great news.
		
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Consistent with the Israeli data.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2021)

Superb news from Scotland, concentrating on the care homes and over 80's as first vaccinations seems to have paid off big time.
Hope this will be the same for the other UK regions, fingers crossed for them


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 22, 2021)

A study at Nagasaki University in Japan has been looking into the effect that 5-ALA (5-Aminolevulinic acid) has on covid. It's apparently a very common, very safe amino acid, they have been researching since October and found that it is very effective in suppressing covid infection, and is worth investigating further as an anti-viral candidate for covid.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006291X2100156X
http://www.nagasaki-u.ac.jp/ja/about/info/science/science225.html


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## drdel (Feb 22, 2021)

I see many Germans are refusing to turn up for their AZ jab and are waiting for the Pfizer - shows the dangers of misinformation.


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## DanFST (Feb 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			I see many Germans are refusing to turn up for their AZ jab and are waiting for the Pfizer - shows the dangers of misinformation.
		
Click to expand...

The same In Italy. 

Under 50's in key professions can now get the AZ vaccine as those older are refusing.


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			I see many Germans are refusing to turn up for their AZ jab and are waiting for the Pfizer - shows the dangers of misinformation.
		
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Well, to be fair, given a choice, and I won't be given one, I would opt for one of the mRNAs too, but will take what I am offered and chances are it will be AZ.

The data is decent for AZ, but stronger for the mRNAs. The mistake people are making is to fail to realise that the best lifeboat to choose is invariably the first one available. That is understandable if you think a slightly better one is coming along soon after.

The magnitude of the error does correlate roughly with population risk, so if the case numbers drop, the mistake is a smaller, but still non-zero, one, because the risk associated with making a bad decision is smaller.

We should also note that people in the UK have declined Pfizer in favour of AZ because it is "British". That is even stupider.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 22, 2021)

Younger kids are back to school today.......


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## D-S (Feb 22, 2021)

[We should also note that people in the UK have declined Pfizer in favour of AZ because it is "British". That is even stupider.[/QUOTE]

People who think like that are by definition even stupider!


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## larmen (Feb 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			I see many Germans are refusing to turn up for their AZ jab and are waiting for the Pfizer - shows the dangers of misinformation.
		
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I read a headline in German somewhere saying that the politicians made more damage that the anti vaccers in Germany.
The German minister of health had a public event planned where he was supposed to get AZ but that had to be cancelled for security reasons


I got lucky, I booked my appointment on a Pfizer day here. I was sure it would be AZ as when I was able to book on the Saturday it was AZ they were giving, but when I turned up on Sunday everybody talked about a 15 minute wait and they switched to Pfizer. Luck if the draw, get what you can.


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2021)

larmen said:



			I read a headline in German somewhere saying that the politicians made more damage that the anti vaccers in Germany.
The German minister of health had a public event planned where he was supposed to get AZ but that had to be cancelled for security reasons


I got lucky, I booked my appointment on a Pfizer day here. I was sure it would be AZ as when I was able to book on the Saturday it was AZ they were giving, but when I turned up on Sunday everybody talked about a 15 minute wait and they switched to Pfizer. Luck if the draw, get what you can.
		
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It is pretty random. I asked about this on the GP forum on a doctors' social media site and most respondents said their deliveries varied by day and they didn't necessarily know what they were getting, or how much, until very soon before. Some clinics also have both at the same time, and more than one husband and wife have attended the same clinic and discovered that one of them got Pfizer, the other AZ.  Just luck of the draw.


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## larmen (Feb 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is pretty random. I asked about this on the GP forum on a doctors' social media site and most respondents said their deliveries varied by day and they didn't necessarily know what they were getting, or how much, until very soon before. Some clinics also have both at the same time, and more than one husband and wife have attended the same clinic and discovered that one of them got Pfizer, the other AZ.  Just luck of the draw.
		
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Does that make the 2nd shot more difficult?
I imagine that I have to book on a Pfizer day, they should know in advance.


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## DanFST (Feb 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The mistake people are making is to fail to realise that the best lifeboat to choose is invariably the first one available. That is understandable if you think a slightly better one is coming along soon after.
		
Click to expand...

Much more eloquent than the condom analogy I've been using.


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## larmen (Feb 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Much more eloquent than the condom analogy I've been using.
		
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Well, we need to hear that to decide ;-)


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2021)

larmen said:



			Does that make the 2nd shot more difficult?
I imagine that I have to book on a Pfizer day, they should know in advance.
		
Click to expand...

No, just take the booking you are offered. They will sort out delivering the appropriate second dose. 

There is some movement towards a mix and match approach, but we are not there yet. I wouldn't have any particular problem receiving a different vaccine for the second one. It is possible you could get the advantages of both.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Much more eloquent than the condom analogy I've been using.
		
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If it's not broken then use it?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2021)

...I'm seeing things...because - jings, crivvens...it looks like Oor Wullie has inveigled his way into the House of Commons...must keep my eyes open to see if Fat Bob, Wee Eck and Soapy Soutar have snuck in as well (kiddin' honest - I'm keeping right side of the pence)


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1363882503728168965


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## Slime (Feb 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I'm seeing things...because - jings, crivvens...it looks like Oor Wullie has inveigled his way into the House of Commons...must keep my eyes open to see if Fat Bob, Wee Eck and Soapy Soutar have snuck in as well (kiddin' honest - I'm keeping right side of the pence)
		
Click to expand...


................ and, in English, that is?


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## banjofred (Feb 22, 2021)

Slime said:



			................ and, in English, that is?
		
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I think he's speaking in Tongues......


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## Slime (Feb 22, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I think he's speaking in Tongues......
		
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Yeah.
Very weird, he's gone all .......................... Tashy?


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## banjofred (Feb 22, 2021)

Slime said:



			Yeah.
Very weird, he's gone all .......................... Tashy?
		
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I wonder how many golfers are going to go off the edge.....never to be seen again but on the news/headlines?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2021)




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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2021)

Slime said:



			Yeah.
Very weird, he's gone all .......................... Tashy?
		
Click to expand...

Nah, I can understand Tashy....


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## pokerjoke (Feb 22, 2021)

So apparently moving in 5 week steps opening up different sectors.
All depending on the R rate and numbers infected as a result of opening up.
If numbers go up again I suppose we could easily find Boris back tracks and doesn’t open up as planned.
Still up in the air as far as I’m concerned.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 22, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			So apparently moving in 5 week steps opening up different sectors.
All depending on the R rate and numbers infected as a result of opening up.
If numbers go up again I suppose we could easily find Boris back tracks and doesn’t open up as planned.
Still up in the air as far as I’m concerned.
		
Click to expand...

I’d be concerned with the disease ridden children going back to school this early but if it has seasonal waves then perhaps infections won’t rise. I’ll hold off booking a week off 12th April for now.


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 35212

Click to expand...

Trying to work out where Driving Instructors fit into all this..
Might have to wait until the day before I'm allowed back for the DVSA to tell me.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Trying to work out where Driving Instructors fit into all this..
Might have to wait until the day before I'm allowed back for the DVSA to tell me.....
		
Click to expand...

I would guess at Step 2 mate 🤷‍♂️


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I think he's speaking in Tongues......
		
Click to expand...

Aye - a puckle o' Scots...

Anyway...fingers well and truly crossed that the scope of Step 4 can be implemented on or very soon after June 21.  In support of that date the word today from north of the border about infections and deaths is very encouraging.


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## Imurg (Feb 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I would guess at Step 2 mate 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I wondered that but they want to minimise travel and no indoor mixing..?
Its irrelevant...I'll have forgotten what to do by then..


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## SaintHacker (Feb 22, 2021)

Selfish post time, but Silverstone looking possible this year 🤞🤞🤞


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 22, 2021)

We may not be satisfied with todays announcement, but it’s a plan and hopefully we will play our part in making it work.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Selfish post time, but Silverstone looking possible this year 🤞🤞🤞
		
Click to expand...

And equally selfishly it looks like Bryan Adams & The Eagles might be going ahead.


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## chrisd (Feb 22, 2021)

No sane person would trust me with a pair of scissors but Mrs D has had to for her occasional hair trim. Now it is somewhat difficult that MrsD is a fully qualified hairdresser, albeit that she hasn't cut anyone's hair bar mine in the last 30+ years, but I wouldn't trust me .........


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## larmen (Feb 22, 2021)

chrisd said:



			No sane person would trust me with a pair of scissors but Mrs D has had to for her occasional hair trim. Now it is somewhat difficult that MrsD is a fully qualified hairdresser, albeit that she hasn't cut anyone's hair bar mine in the last 30+ years, but I wouldn't trust me .........
		
Click to expand...

Just google for flowbee. You are welcome ;-)


----------



## chrisd (Feb 22, 2021)

larmen said:



			Just google for flowbee. You are welcome ;-)
		
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No need  - she treats me like a 1st year apprentice and 😁


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## AmandaJR (Feb 22, 2021)

Hairdresser just booked me in for 14th April - fingers crossed!! Golf for a couple of weeks looking tricky...


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## DanFST (Feb 22, 2021)

Graphs on display tonight are so disingenuous. Constantly changing the age groups between each slide.


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## chrisd (Feb 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Graphs on display tonight are so disingenuous. Constantly changing the age groups between each slide.
		
Click to expand...

 Can you point out the specific disingenuousness of each slide for us please and the effect caused?


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## banjofred (Feb 22, 2021)

Not very golf-like....but I really need to stop eating so much.....just sitting around playing PC games....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Can you point out the specific disingenuousness of each slide for us please and the effect caused?
		
Click to expand...

I thought they were quite clear and designed to illustrate specific points that were then clearly explained. The one that perhaps couldn’t be taken at face value as presented was that which showed the % of under 65s who develop Covid-19 that go into hospital as that figure was surprisingly high and not that far short of the figure for over 65s.  But the point is that the chart showed %s and not actual numbers.

If my understanding of it is correct then it’s not saying similar numbers of under and over 65s get hospitalised - as that is not the case - very many more of the latter.  Well I think that that is what it showed - to demonstrate that we can’t be complacent about letting loads of under 65s contract the virus as that would risk potentially large numbers getting ill and the analysis suggests almost half would be requiring hospitalisation. And therein lies risk to the NHS coping.


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## Hobbit (Feb 22, 2021)

Bars and restaurants opened at the weekend, and bowls opens tomorrow. Only 4 people per table, and the same for bowls. Numbers weren't good enough to allow movement beyond the town boundaries but that number was hit today and, fingers crossed, will be included in the weekly review on Thursday. Most towns south of us are showing similar numbers but everything north looks to be a few weeks behind. As of next week we should be able to travel down to Almeria and across to Malaga if we want to.


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## Billysboots (Feb 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Bars and restaurants opened at the weekend, and bowls opens tomorrow. Only 4 people per table, and the same for bowls. Numbers weren't good enough to allow movement beyond the town boundaries but that number was hit today and, fingers crossed, will be included in the weekly review on Thursday. Most towns south of us are showing similar numbers but everything north looks to be a few weeks behind. As of next week we should be able to travel down to Almeria and across to Malaga if we want to.
		
Click to expand...

We have flights to Malaga moved from June last year to late June this year. Still not expecting to use them if truth be known, but that certainly sounds a little more encouraging.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 22, 2021)

Really don't give a flying fig leaf for a holiday...
I need something a whole lot more basic than that...
BIG hugs with my grandsons...
Roll on March 29...


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## backwoodsman (Feb 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought they were quite clear and designed to illustrate specific points that were then clearly explained. The one that perhaps couldn’t be taken at face value as presented was that which showed the % of under 65s who develop Covid-19 that go into hospital as that figure was surprisingly high and not that far short of the figure for over 65s.  But the point is that the chart showed %s and not actual numbers.

If my understanding of it is correct then it’s not saying similar numbers of under and over 65s get hospitalised - as that is not the case - very many more of the latter.  Well I think that that is what it showed - to demonstrate that we can’t be complacent about letting loads of under 65s contract the virus as that would risk potentially large numbers getting ill and the analysis suggests almost half would be requiring hospitalisation. And therein lies risk to the NHS coping.
		
Click to expand...

I think you were understanding incorrectly. The bar chart was showing that of the people who got hospitalised, 58% were over 65,  and 42% were under. Thats not the same as saying that 42% of the under 65s who contract the disease go to hospital.  It was to show that a fairly high proportion of current admissions come from groups that are not yet being vaccinated - hence we still need to be cautious. The only issue I had with it was that it only showed data for a weeks' worth of admissions.


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## Pants (Feb 23, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Hairdresser just booked me in for 14th April - fingers crossed!! Golf for a couple of weeks looking tricky...

View attachment 35220

Click to expand...

Nice eyebrows


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 23, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I think you were understanding incorrectly. The bar chart was showing that of the people who got hospitalised, 58% were over 65,  and 42% were under. Thats not the same as saying that 42% of the under 65s who contract the disease go to hospital.  It was to show that a fairly high proportion of current admissions come from groups that are not yet being vaccinated - hence we still need to be cautious. The only issue I had with it was that it only showed data for a weeks' worth of admissions.
		
Click to expand...

Well your explanation is what I thought at first, but I then thought I must have missed part of the explanation as the % of under 65s was surprisingly high cf the over 65s. And my understanding was that the majority of hospitalisations were the elderly and I hadn’t considered such as 60-65 elderly and particularly vulnerable...but apparently they are.  With your clarification it to me becomes an even more important chart.

Maybe it’s just that a large number of over 65s who have died were in care homes and never got to hospital...that would go to explain the split.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well your explanation is what I thought at first, but I then thought I must have missed part of the explanation as the % of under 65s was surprisingly high cf the over 65s. And my understanding was that the majority of hospitalisations were the elderly and I hadn’t considered such as 60-65 elderly and particularly vulnerable...but apparently they are.  With your clarification it to me becomes an even more important chart.

Maybe it’s just that a large number of over 65s who have died were in care homes and never got to hospital...that would go to explain the split.
		
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What probably distorts our perception a bit, is that is doesnt take account of the respective proportions of the the population. Eg , there are a lot more more under 65 than there are over 65 (let's say 2:1 - don't know if that's correct but it will do for now). So, 58% of hospital admissions come from a group of say 15 million, the other 42% come from a group of say 30 million.  (Am using simple numbers just for illustration)

I guess the point is that we know there are a hell of a lot of hospital admissions, and 42% of them is also a hell of a lot of people - from a group as yet unprotected.


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## Smiffy (Feb 23, 2021)

Daughter Lydia delivered a lockdown baby this morning. Very proud...


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## Paperboy (Feb 23, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Daughter Lydia delivered a lockdown baby this morning. Very proud...
	View attachment 35235

Click to expand...

Good too hear mate, she's looking well after you where worried after she caught COVID!


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## Smiffy (Feb 23, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			Good too hear mate, she's looking well after you where worried after she caught COVID!
		
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Yep. She's back and fighting 
Love her to bits and can't wait to give her a big hug


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## chrisd (Feb 23, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Yep. She's back and fighting
Love her to bits and can't wait to give her a big hug
		
Click to expand...

Gorgeous Rob! Nothing better than a grand child 😍😍


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## DanFST (Feb 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Can you point out the specific disingenuousness of each slide for us please and the effect caused?
		
Click to expand...






Slide 1: Even the title, we have a sample of 66,655. Cool!
- But when was the sample taken? When It's broken down into vaccination groups, seems a big omission when the vaccinations are done in order. And it makes a huge difference on hospitalisation.

28 days after admission, cool!
- Why was this chosen? How many days on average is each group in hospital before being released or death?

It's broken down in 3 sections of age group. Cool!
- Well it's not really, it's by vaccine groups. So group 4 and 6 don't fit with age. The asterix in the youngest group section. Relates to the top two groups.
- Youngest group covers 50 years. Middle group cover 20 years, Oldest cover Unknown amount of years.
- These are obviously absolute numbers, but how do they compare their representative amount of the population?


Slide 2: Title self explanatory. clear date sample. This is percentages, when absolutes have been used previously it could throw people off.

Only 2 age groups this time. Why? The median age is 40 in the UK, why has 65 been used?
- we saw the difference in absolute numbers, between the young and middle group in the last despite the middle group covering 30 less years!
- no mention or splitting of those in severe or high risk groups. What percentage of them is in each?


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I'm seeing things...because - jings, crivvens...it looks like Oor Wullie has inveigled his way into the House of Commons...must keep my eyes open to see if Fat Bob, Wee Eck and Soapy Soutar have snuck in as well (kiddin' honest - I'm keeping right side of the pence)
		
Click to expand...

Must admit I thought the same, but Oor Willie isnae goin bald.
Lord Snooty is an easy spot.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 23, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			What probably distorts our perception a bit, is that is doesnt take account of the respective proportions of the the population. Eg , there are a lot more more under 65 than there are over 65 (let's say 2:1 - don't know if that's correct but it will do for now). So, 58% of hospital admissions come from a group of say 15 million, the other 42% come from a group of say 30 million.  (Am using simple numbers just for illustration)

I guess the point is that we know there are a hell of a lot of hospital admissions, and *42% of them is also a hell of a lot of people - from a group as yet unprotected.*

Click to expand...

I think that this is the very important message to us as we go through the steps of opening up.  That large number of people as yet unprotected could generate a large number of hospitalisations if the opening up goes wrong - with associated impact on the NHS.  And that will be why in the later briefing Johnson did a bit of clarifying of his description of the approach as being 'irreversible' to the *objective *of not having to reverse anything.  And I am glad that he did that - as that's the truth of it.

It is therefore for me a pity that such as the Sun; Telegraph and DM are having a go at him and the approach he has outlined as being too slow and cautious - that he has been listening too much to the 'gloomsters' and 'doomsters' of the science community.  I for one am very glad that he has moved to that position.  Because goodness me - we owe it to everyone in the NHS that we do everything to minimise risk of further increases in hospitalisations as things are opened-up, that by our actions and behaviours we take the pressure off the NHS and allow NHS workers to take holidays and other time off to recover.

I do worry though that we are gambling the house on people's behaviour - and the downside is new mutations if it goes wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 23, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Must admit I thought the same, but Oor Willie isnae goin bald.
Lord Snooty is an easy spot.

Click to expand...

Lord Snooty or Bash Street School teacher


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that this is the very important message to us as we go through the steps of opening up.  That large number of people as yet unprotected could generate a large number of hospitalisations if the opening up goes wrong - with associated impact on the NHS.  And that will be why in the later briefing Johnson did a bit of clarifying of his description of the approach as being 'irreversible' to the *objective *of not having to reverse anything.  And I am glad that he did that - as that's the truth of it.

It is therefore for me a pity that such as the Sun; Telegraph and DM are having a go at him and the approach he has outlined as being too slow and cautious - that he has been listening too much to the 'gloomsters' and 'doomsters' of the science community.  I for one am very glad that he has moved to that position.  Because goodness me - we owe it to everyone in the NHS that we do everything to minimise risk of further increases in hospitalisations as things are opened-up, that by our actions and behaviours we take the pressure off the NHS and allow NHS workers to take holidays and other time off to recover.

I do worry though that we are gambling the house on people's behaviour - and the downside is new mutations if it goes wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, quite so. But what annoyed me in this journalistic  analysis and predictions game that they indulge in, is the number of times that they said that the PM _*promised* that_ we would not reverse.
I didn't hear him say that, only that he wanted not to have to reverse.
Which is, of course, why  we have the five weeks gap.
Let's hope that most will have seen what happens if we go gung-ho on the easement dates, and that common sense prevails, and that all goes a according to plan


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## DanFST (Feb 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, quite so. But what annoyed me in this journalistic  analysis and predictions game that they indulge in, is the number of times that they said that the PM _*promised* that_ we would not reverse.
I didn't hear him say that, only that he wanted not to have to reverse.
Which is, of course, why  we have the five weeks gap.
Let's hope that most will have seen what happens if we go gung-ho on the easement dates, and that common sense prevails, and that all goes a according to plan
		
Click to expand...

*BREAKING: Lockdown easing could be slower than planned*

That's from Sky News this morning, following their interview with Hancock. It's not breaking, it was clearly explained last night. "Journalism" really isn't worth the paper it's printed on. 

I don't like that blanket bans are applied, I don't like that this "data driven" approach isn't in fact that. I don't like the way the data is presented (Thanks PWC!). But overall I like the roadmap.


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## chrisd (Feb 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			That's confused me 🤔
		
Click to expand...


See post#16689


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## backwoodsman (Feb 23, 2021)

DanFST said:



View attachment 35237


Slide 2: Title self explanatory. clear date sample. This is percentages, when absolutes have been used previously it could throw people off.

Only 2 age groups this time. Why? The median age is 40 in the UK, *why has 65 been used?*
- we saw the difference in absolute numbers, between the young and middle group in the last despite the middle group covering 30 less years!
- no mention or splitting of those in severe or high risk groups. What percentage of them is in each?
		
Click to expand...

It makes sense for 65 to be used because that is the current "divide"  between those being vaccinated and those not. It simply shows that  nearly half the people currently going into hospital,  are coming from the "not getting vaccinated any time soon" category. A simple way of showing that we're not out the woods yet and still need to be cautious. (And yes, I  know there are some "younger but vulnerable" being done, but that doesnt really alter the point).


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## Smiffy (Feb 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			See post#16689
		
Click to expand...

Who's the grandchild??!


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## Imurg (Feb 23, 2021)

He's skipped his meds again...Where's his carer?


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## backwoodsman (Feb 23, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Daughter Lydia delivered a lockdown baby this morning. Very proud...
	View attachment 35235

Click to expand...

She work for Amazon then?


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## chrisd (Feb 23, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Who's the grandchild??!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, misread post


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2021)

Vaccination booked for tomorrow.


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## DanFST (Feb 23, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			It makes sense for 65 to be used because that is the current "divide"  between those being vaccinated and those not. It simply shows that  nearly half the people currently going into hospital,  are coming from the "not getting vaccinated any time soon" category. A simple way of showing that we're not out the woods yet and still need to be cautious. *(And yes, I  know there are some "younger but vulnerable" being done, but that doesnt really alter the point)*.
		
Click to expand...

- The current group of underlying health conditions and unpaid carers is only just smaller (circa 700k/ 2 days of vaccination) than everyone 70 and over in the country, not sure that's negligible.  

- When you add in that those 60-65 make up a huge percentage of the groups admissions, and seem to be getting vaccinated. 

Obviously we know why they've presented the data in this way. If they used the median or age groups from the previous slide, compliance would be an issue.


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## Smiffy (Feb 23, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Sorry, misread post
		
Click to expand...

Bloody right you did...Grandad???????
😡😡😡😡😡😉


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## backwoodsman (Feb 23, 2021)

DanFST said:



			- *The current group of underlying health conditions and unpaid carers is only just smaller (circa 700k/ 2 days of vaccination) than everyone 70 and over in the country, not sure that's negligible. *

- When you add in that those 60-65 make up a huge percentage of the groups admissions, and seem to be getting vaccinated.

Obviously we know why they've presented the data in this way. If they used the median or age groups from the previous slide, compliance would be an issue.
		
Click to expand...

I'd  be interested to see the numbers you working from. In my mind ithat doesnt add up,  so happy to see the numbers which show otherwise.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 23, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I'd  be interested to see the numbers you working from. In my mind ithat doesnt add up,  so happy to see the numbers which show otherwise.
		
Click to expand...

Google gives a figure of almost 8.8 million people in the UK over the age of 70. By my reading he's suggesting that there are 8.1 million unpaid carers or people with underlying health conditions.


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## DanFST (Feb 23, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Google gives a figure of almost 8.8 million people in the UK over the age of 70. By my reading he's suggesting that there are 8.1 million unpaid carers or people with underlying health conditions.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly this, There's 7.3m in the above group + 1.2 Severely at risk Under 70 = 8.5m

You'd have to take an amount off the severe at risk group to account for the 65-70 year olds, so I just ball parked it. 

Dataset was from NHSEI.


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## Hobbit (Feb 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Vaccination booked for tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Almost wish we were still in the UK. HID has a very rare form of colitis and I have angina, high BP(even with meds) and am recovering from bowel cancer, and we might get the jab in Sept...................

Seriously, apart from the fragmentated lockdowns and lack of acceptance of the rules in the UK I really wish I was in the UK right now... apart from the cwappy weather of course.


----------



## Pants (Feb 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Yes, his daughter delivered a baby.
I thought his daughter is in uniform and delivered someone's baby 🤱 🤷‍♂️

Ah well, congrats to whoever the mum is 😅
		
Click to expand...

That's one heck of a size newborn baby.  Would make your eyes water ...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Almost wish we were still in the UK. HID has a very rare form of colitis and I have angina, high BP(even with meds) and am recovering from bowel cancer, and we might get the jab in Sept...................

Seriously, apart from the fragmentated lockdowns and lack of acceptance of the rules in the UK I really wish I was in the UK right... apart from the cwappy weather of course.
		
Click to expand...

Really can’t knock the vaccination programme, Jonny and Donna got done last week as part of the vulnerable group and I’ve moved up one group as the registered carer.

So Seaham currently on the 60-64 age group + carers.


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## DanFST (Feb 23, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Almost wish we were still in the UK. HID has a very rare form of colitis and I have angina, high BP(even with meds) and am recovering from bowel cancer, and we might get the jab in Sept...................

Seriously, apart from the fragmentated lockdowns and lack of acceptance of the rules in the UK I really wish I was in the UK right... apart from the cwappy weather of course.
		
Click to expand...


It's not all perfect, I have Chron's. I was told to stop taking my immunosuppressants until I get a vaccine.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2021)

Second jab booked 7th may


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## larmen (Feb 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Second jab booked 7th may
		
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How many weeks after the 1st? And which vaccine?


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## Billysboots (Feb 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Second jab booked 7th may
		
Click to expand...

Is that within 12 weeks of your first, just out of curiosity?

I ask only because you’re the first person I have read/heard of getting an appointment for your second jab. What’s your experience of the process been?


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## Kellfire (Feb 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Is that within 12 weeks of your first, just out of curiosity?

I ask only because you’re the first person I have read/heard of getting an appointment for your second jab. What’s your experience of the process been?
		
Click to expand...

I was given my second appointment the day I booked my first, 11 weeks apart. I get my second on 11th April.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2021)

larmen said:



			How many weeks after the 1st? And which vaccine?
		
Click to expand...

11 weeks and AZ


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Is that within 12 weeks of your first, just out of curiosity?

I ask only because you’re the first person I have read/heard of getting an appointment for your second jab. What’s your experience of the process been?
		
Click to expand...

I just filled in my details on NHS website and because I've had my first it let me book my second

Offered various locations but wouldn't let me book until week starting 2nd may which is 11 weeks post jab


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## Billysboots (Feb 23, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I was given my second appointment the day I booked my first, 11 weeks apart. I get my second on 11th April.
		
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I had seen the plan was to do them at clinics 11 weeks after the first. I’m interested to know because my first was earlier this month but was not done via my GP. It was arranged via a clinic offering them to key workers to avoid binning a delivery of Pfizer vaccines.

They did say the second jab would now be facilitated by them as well, so just curious to see what other people’s experience has been.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I had seen the plan was to do them at clinics 11 weeks after the first. I’m interested to know because my first was earlier this month but was not done via my GP. It was arranged via a clinic offering them to key workers to avoid binning a delivery of Pfizer vaccines.

They did say the second jab would now be facilitated by them as well, so just curious to see what other people’s experience has been.
		
Click to expand...

They told me I'd get a txt to book the second one

However I tried the website for my wife as she waiting the update to get hers done so put mine in and noticed I could book and I'm off work that week so Friday do It before my day weekend lol


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## Billysboots (Feb 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They told me I'd get a txt to book the second one

However I tried the website for my wife as she waiting the update to get hers done so put mine in and noticed I could book and I'm off work that week so Friday do It before my day weekend lol
		
Click to expand...

I have to say I have been mightily impressed by the vaccine roll out so far. And accounts like yours only reinforce my growing sense that I might get to spend Christmas with the mother-in-law after all. 🙄


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I have to say I have been mightily impressed by the vaccine roll out so far. And accounts like yours only reinforce my growing sense that I might get to spend Christmas with the mother-in-law after all. 🙄
		
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Lol 🤣 you poor fellow 

Yeah the vaccine rollout is incredible 

If I get my second vaccine on the 7th may then by June I should be fully protected to the full power of what the vaccine offers

Follow social distancing still and masks .. should be much much lower risk


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## road2ruin (Feb 23, 2021)

Suddenly the full opening on 21st June makes perfect sense! Party!!


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## larmen (Feb 23, 2021)

I had a sneaky look at the NHS page now and am not eligible to book there. Pressed the link on my text again and it says my GO will contact me for my 2nd shot 11 weeks after the 1st. That’s late April then, but at least I know now.


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## drdel (Feb 23, 2021)

I booked myself and HiD first and second doses at the  same place and time. In and out in 15min: excellent!


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## larmen (Feb 23, 2021)

larmen said:



			I had a sneaky look at the NHS page now and am not eligible to book there. Pressed the link on my text again and it says my GO will contact me for my 2nd shot 11 weeks after the 1st. That’s late April then, but at least I know now.
		
Click to expand...

Just sent that and I got a text message from the Imperial College NHS Trust to book my 1st shot (if I didn't have it yet).
Sorry Dr. Renal, but Dr. Cardio already took care of me ;-)
Let someone else have this 1st shot please.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 23, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364244388134666242


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## chellie (Feb 23, 2021)

One DD has been able to book her first and second vaccination.

I've had my first in January but am unable to book my second. Just says to contact hospital or GP. I had the Pfizer.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Is that within 12 weeks of your first, just out of curiosity?

I ask only because you’re the first person I have read/heard of getting an appointment for your second jab. What’s your experience of the process been?
		
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I got mine at St Helens rugby ground .
It was like a military exercise spot on. So well organised.
Got appointment on 1st of May for my second jab on the day.
Had a headache and few aches and pains but gone in a day.
Fantastic feeling of relief.
Can’t praise it enough.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 23, 2021)

chellie said:



			One DD has been able to book her first and second vaccination.

I've had my first in January but am unable to book my second. Just says to contact hospital or GP. I had the Pfizer.
		
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My uneducated guess is Pfizer is harder to book as it's harder to store 

AZ can be done at local boots etc so I'm guessing that's why I was offered about 7 pharmacy locations


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## DanFST (Feb 23, 2021)

larmen said:



			Well, we need to hear that to decide ;-)
		
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You meet a lovely lady and take her home. However she won't let you perform any deeds without protection. You run to the shop and they only have the thickest supersafe rubbers left, no fancy thin ones. You're not exactly going to say oh well and not buy any at all are you?  

That's an equivalent to the vaccines.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 23, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Exactly this, There's 7.3m in the above group + 1.2 Severely at risk Under 70 = 8.5m

You'd have to take an amount off the severe at risk group to account for the 65-70 year olds, so I just ball parked it.

Dataset was from NHSEI.
		
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Ok, I'll let you have that point as regards numbers.

But i think my original point is still valid. On your numbers, the over 70s,  plus the 'young vulnerable, 'plus carers  come to about 16million. That still leaves 50 million or so (generally) unvaccinated people. Knock off, say 15 million children, and there's still an awful lot of adults who are capable of taking up a lot of bedspace. And the quoted percentages show that they do in fact take up their fair share.


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## Old Skier (Feb 23, 2021)

Just in case it wasn’t clear


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## Tashyboy (Feb 23, 2021)

If anyone could clarify re Covid vaccinations. Both mine and Missis Ts parents have had there first vaccines. All Four of them were given appointment times and dates for there second vaccination. Is that not the norm 🤔


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 23, 2021)

Glad I got holidays booked while they was cheap and future uncertain. Bookings surged and prices have risen. 
Looking to get away for my birthday October but may have to wait for a late deal for that one. 
May, sept and November in though last year. Two rearranged from cancelled ones last year.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			If anyone could clarify re Covid vaccinations. Both mine and Missis Ts parents have had there first vaccines. All Four of them were given appointment times and dates for there second vaccination. Is that not the norm 🤔
		
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It varies mate, norm in some places, not in others, my missus and lad had first jab after local GP contact, they’ve been told to wait for GP contact for 2nd jab and not book by NHS Link

If you booked 1st via NHS link, you can book 2nd.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 23, 2021)

DanFST said:



			You meet a lovely lady and take her home. However she won't let you perform any deeds without protection. You run to the shop and they only have the thickest supersafe rubbers left, no fancy thin ones. You're not exactly going to say oh well and not buy any at all are you? 

That's an equivalent to the vaccines.
		
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That reminds me of the time I went to buy some and the woman asked me what size I needed, I said 'Large Please!'. I came out with a box of 500.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			If anyone could clarify re Covid vaccinations. Both mine and Missis Ts parents have had there first vaccines. All Four of them were given appointment times and dates for there second vaccination. Is that not the norm 🤔
		
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It seems there are different methods. My wife and I each got a letter to book online. When it's done like that , you get a date for the first jab, and at the same time, a date for the second jab.
If you go ahead and receive the first jab, then you will know the second jab date.
However, in our case, before the first jab date, the local surgery rang with an almost immediate appointment.  This was taken. 
At that appointment, upon receiving the jab,( Pfizer vaccine), we were told that we would be contacted at a later time to offer a date for the second jab.
(Upon being given the first jab, the online appointments are automatically cancelled)
No contact has yet been made re the second jab.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 23, 2021)

When will vaccinations likely be available privately @Ethan ?


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## Ethan (Feb 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			When will vaccinations likely be available privately @Ethan ?
		
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Not anytime soon. The vaccines are not approved apart from for temporary supply to the NHS, so a doctor can't write a prescription for one and companies can't supply them other than to the NHS. You'll get it sooner from the NHS.


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## road2ruin (Feb 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Glad I got holidays booked while they was cheap and future uncertain. Bookings surged and prices have risen.
Looking to get away for my birthday October but may have to wait for a late deal for that one.
May, sept and November in though last year. Two rearranged from cancelled ones last year.
		
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Couldn’t understand people saying it was a risk when I booked a couple of weeks ago. It was a no brainer to get them in the diary as prices were only ever going to go one way. If the worst had happened (or still does) then you cancel or it gets cancelled for you.


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## IainP (Feb 23, 2021)

We've chatted in the past on the flaws/risks of comparing stats across countries. The Beeb currently reporting this from Africa:

*Infection in Nigerian state 'may top Africa's official total'*
A Covid-19 antibodies survey in Nigeria suggests four million people in Lagos state alone have had the virus - more than has been officially recorded for the whole of Africa.


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## GB72 (Feb 24, 2021)

Still not sure how but my wife is booked in for her first jab next Sunday. After the initial invite they changed the guidelines on asthma and, as here is very mild, we assumed she would be back down the queue with the rest of the under 50s. Still, not going to turn it down and over the moon that she will soon have some protection.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 24, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Still not sure how but my wife is booked in for her first jab next Sunday. After the initial invite they changed the guidelines on asthma and, as here is very mild, we assumed she would be back down the queue with the rest of the under 50s. Still, not going to turn it down and over the moon that she will soon have some protection.
		
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I guess there are some medical conditions where the gradation between what is considered severe and what is considered moderate or mild is rather difficult to pinpoint - and in some circumstances (eg a pandemic perhaps  ) I guess it's not worth wasting  time making sure absolutely everyone is in the exact right place in a queue. One of those "that's close enough;  it'll do" situations. Count it as a wee lucky break & get her down the centre as soon as ...


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I guess there are some medical conditions where the gradation between what is considered severe and what is considered moderate or mild is rather difficult to pinpoint - and in some circumstances (eg a pandemic perhaps  ) I guess it's not worth wasting  time making sure absolutely everyone is in the exact right place in a queue. One of those "that's close enough;  it'll do" situations. Count it as a wee lucky break & get her down the centre as soon as ... 

Click to expand...

Exactly. At this stage, just vaccinate who you can, and that is quicker for all than moving people around and rebooking. The prioritisation  criteria are rather clunky in places, and if you are offered one, take it, better use of everybody's time than generously trying to let someone else go first.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 24, 2021)

Don't know if this has been asked elsewhere but ...

Mrs B keeps her eye on the daily vaccination numbers (she ain't got a lot else to do at the mo) and yesterday exclaimed, " blimey, that's not many!"  The number was 155K (or thereabouts). So I looked up the  numbers. And it seems that since the end of January there been a slight but gradual fall in the numbers being done each day (using the rolling average that is). Yesterday was the third lowest daily total, and the day before was the lowest. Only day 1 on the chart sits between the two. The peak number was 30th Jan at about 540K and its being tailling off since.  The question is:   Is the programme being  deliberately eased, or have we hit a buffer of aome kind?


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Don't know if this has been asked elsewhere but ...

Mrs B keeps her eye on the daily vaccination numbers (she ain't got a lot else to do at the mo) and yesterday exclaimed, " blimey, that's not many!"  The number was 155K (or thereabouts). So I looked up the  numbers. And it seems that since the end of January there been a slight but gradual fall in the numbers being done each day (using the rolling average that is). Yesterday was the third lowest daily total, and the day before was the lowest. Only day 1 on the chart sits between the two. The peak number was 30th Jan at about 540K and its being tailling off since.  The question is:   Is the programme being  deliberately eased, or have we hit a buffer of aome kind?
		
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It may be supply. It shouldn't be staff, tins of doctors and nurses signed up to help, including yours truly, but not yet called up. 

Supply was known to have some dips in the delivery schedule. Because of the way it is distributed that will be seen as a slowing down or speeding up over days rather than a sudden crash in numbers. I wouldn't worry too much about it. The percentage already done is pretty high and plenty of momentum in the system.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 24, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Don't know if this has been asked elsewhere but ...

Mrs B keeps her eye on the daily vaccination numbers (she ain't got a lot else to do at the mo) and yesterday exclaimed, " blimey, that's not many!"  The number was 155K (or thereabouts). So I looked up the  numbers. And it seems that since the end of January there been a slight but gradual fall in the numbers being done each day (using the rolling average that is). Yesterday was the third lowest daily total, and the day before was the lowest. Only day 1 on the chart sits between the two. The peak number was 30th Jan at about 540K and its being tailling off since.  The question is:   Is the programme being  deliberately eased, or have we hit a buffer of aome kind?
		
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Could it be we're now getting into the 'working age' groups, so more people will be booking them around weekends, days off etc?


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## backwoodsman (Feb 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It may be supply. It shouldn't be staff, tins of doctors and nurses signed up to help, including yours truly, but not yet called up.

Supply was known to have some dips in the delivery schedule. Because of the way it is distributed that will be seen as a slowing down or speeding up over days rather than a sudden crash in numbers. I wouldn't worry too much about it. The percentage already done is pretty high and plenty of momentum in the system.
		
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Wasnt actually worried as such, but simply saw that there seemed to be a noticeable trend. Just hoping to see an upturn in the rolling average which will help show that its just a long wobbly line (as it should be) rather than a single peak hill (which is what it looks like now )


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Wasnt actually worried as such, but simply saw that there seemed to be a noticeable trend. Just hoping to see an upturn in the rolling average which will help show that its just a long wobbly line (as it should be) rather than a single peak hill (which is what it looks like now )
		
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The starting effort was massive, and was probably going to be hard to sustain. When you go to a care home and vax a few dozen people in one go, it racks the numbers up fast. The vax centres where you are waiting for people to turn up can be more variable. I have heard reports of GPs seeing quite a few people not attending.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2021)

Sounds like it’s not required of schools to have all students back in on 8th March...they can phase return over a week.  I’m guessing that most schools will take that route given teachers are going to have to supervise all students as they do their own testing...and that’s going to take time.  Though it seems that schools would have two weeks to have all students take three tests - I guess that 2 weeks may be to accommodate students returning at _end _of w/c 8th March - possibly some will be returning on 15th March.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The starting effort was massive, and was probably going to be hard to sustain. When you go to a care home and vax a few dozen people in one go, it racks the numbers up fast. The vax centres where you are waiting for people to turn up can be more variable. I have heard reports of GPs seeing quite a few people not attending.
		
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Absolutely. The effort was amazing. Goes to show what you can do if you put the task in the hands of the  right people. As opposed to the wrong people as we may have seen elsewhere during this pandemic.


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## larmen (Feb 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I have heard reports of GPs seeing quite a few people not attending.
		
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Not attending or not booking appointments?


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

larmen said:



			Not attending or not booking appointments?
		
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Both, but the DNA (Did Not Attend) are the bigger pain because then you are scrambling for reserves and some of the local NHS Organisations are taking a stupidly inflexible policy on using spare vaccine.


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## larmen (Feb 24, 2021)

But why book and not attend? I don’t get that.


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## bobmac (Feb 24, 2021)

larmen said:



			But why book and not attend? I don’t get that.
		
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Cold feet, conspiracy theories, lying media, second thoughts, etc


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2021)

My parents are friends with a hospital CEO , he was saying 3 weeks ago his hospital only had 1 non covid ward now they only have 1 covid ward 

Their data says the vaccine has exceeded expectations with hospitals


He says he has worked with Chris whitty , lovely man who doesn't blow his own trumpet but after every briefing goes and does the night shift at the university hospital


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2021)

Just tried my mum's details on NHS website 

Her jab is now booked for next week with second one in may


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## Hobbit (Feb 24, 2021)

Galicia province in Northern Spain is currently debating making having the vaccine mandatory. Refusal to incur a €60,000 fine


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## Kellfire (Feb 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Galicia province in Northern Spain is currently debating making having the vaccine mandatory. Refusal to incur a €60,000 fine
		
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It should be mandatory but they’ll need some legal team to force that through!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 24, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Don't know if this has been asked elsewhere but ...

Mrs B keeps her eye on the daily vaccination numbers (she ain't got a lot else to do at the mo) and yesterday exclaimed, " blimey, that's not many!"  The number was 155K (or thereabouts). So I looked up the  numbers. And it seems that since the end of January there been a slight but gradual fall in the numbers being done each day (using the rolling average that is). Yesterday was the third lowest daily total, and the day before was the lowest. Only day 1 on the chart sits between the two. The peak number was 30th Jan at about 540K and its being tailling off since.  The question is:   Is the programme being  deliberately eased, or have we hit a buffer of aome kind?
		
Click to expand...

Van Tam on Sky News this morning stated there had been supply fluctuations hence the reason the numbers were down.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My parents are friends with a hospital CEO , he was saying 3 weeks ago his hospital only had 1 non covid ward now they only have 1 covid ward

Their data says the vaccine has exceeded expectations with hospitals


*He says he has worked with Chris whitty , lovely man who doesn't blow his own trumpet but after every briefing goes and does the night shift at the university hospital*

Click to expand...

Yes, I suspected he was " a good 'un "

That is good news re the hospitals thoughts on the vaccine. Now , it seems, there is real hope for this year😁


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## SocketRocket (Feb 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			It should be mandatory but they’ll need some legal team to force that through!
		
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I can imagine the reaction when they drag a handcuffed person into a booth and hold them down while they are vaccinated.

You can't reasonably force someone to have a vaccination but you can limit their access to services if they don't.


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## Kellfire (Feb 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I can imagine the reaction when they drag a handcuffed person into a booth and hold them down while they are vaccinated.

You can't reasonably force someone to have a vaccination but you can limit their access to services if they don't.
		
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Yea that’s what I meant by mandatory; not physically forcing it on them but the restriction of things like access to public transport, flights and venues can refuse entry.


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## Hobbit (Feb 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			It should be mandatory but they’ll need some legal team to force that through!
		
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The debate here swings between Human rights/force and endangering human life, which is already on the books here. Does not having the jab endanger human life? No, providing they're a hermit. Maybe the law will centre around going somewhere without the jab, e.g. a concert. That way they're not forced to have, just not allowed somewhere if they haven't.

Anyway, that's for others to decide.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 24, 2021)

Very efficient process at the centre today and it was the Pfizer jab I was given.👍🏻


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Very efficient process at the centre today and it was the Pfizer jab I was given.👍🏻
		
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Keep your nose clean for a couple of weeks and you will be in good shape. Did they mention the appalling scrotal swelling side effect that occurs about 24 hours after the first jab?


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## larmen (Feb 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Keep your nose clean for a couple of weeks and you will be in good shape. Did they mention the appalling scrotal swelling side effect that occurs about 24 hours after the first jab?
		
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I didn’t get that. But what about the floppy Willie? At least Pfizer sells a product that solves that ;-)


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

larmen said:



			I didn’t get that. But what about the floppy Willie? At least Pfizer sells a product that solves that ;-)
		
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Used to be known as the Pfizer riser.


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## D-S (Feb 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The debate here swings between Human rights/force and endangering human life, which is already on the books here. Does not having the jab endanger human life? No, providing they're a hermit. Maybe the law will centre around going somewhere without the jab, e.g. a concert. That way they're not forced to have, just not allowed somewhere if they haven't.

Anyway, that's for others to decide.
		
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The fact that the vaccine now appears to reduce transmission seems to be on the side of reduced access for non vaccinated (once everyone has had the opportunity). I liken it to smoking, we ban it in certain areas as the spread of second hand smoke is known to be dangerous; having people in close contact with others who we believe are more likely to spread a disiease, would appear not to be a good thing. This is the very reason we are locked down and socially distance and wear masks. This is in addition to the greater good benefit of reducing incidence and transmission of the virus which might lead to more mutation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Keep your nose clean for a couple of weeks and you will be in good shape. Did they mention the appalling scrotal swelling side effect that occurs about 24 hours after the first jab?
		
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Yes mate, that and one bicep goes like Hellboy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Yea that’s what I meant by mandatory; not physically forcing it on them but the restriction of things like access to public transport, flights and venues can refuse entry.
		
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If I choose to get drunk the landlord can legally refuse my entry into his establishment - as I could be a nuisance and/or pose a danger to his customers.

If I want to go into the pub I determine to not get drunk; if I get drunk then I accept that I may in most likelihood not get in.  It's my choice to play to the landlord's rules; on his part he must not breach equality legislation and I don't see the right to not be vaccinated being written into law as an 'equality right'.


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## larmen (Feb 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			on his part he must not breach equality legislation and I don't see the right to not be vaccinated being written into law as an 'equality right'.
		
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Are there religions that don’t vaccinate? I think Mormons don’t do doctors, do they? But that isn’t really a UK problem.


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## Kellfire (Feb 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I choose to get drunk the landlord can legally refuse my entry into his establishment - as I could be a nuisance and/or pose a danger to his customers.

If I want to go into the pub I determine to not get drunk; if I get drunk then I accept that I may in most likelihood not get in.  It's my choice to play to the landlord's rules; on his part he must not breach equality legislation and I don't see the right to not be vaccinated being written into law as an 'equality right'.
		
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The law literally allows a landlord to refuse us entry for being drunk. They don’t enforce it because it would hurt their profits.


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I choose to get drunk the landlord can legally refuse my entry into his establishment - as I could be a nuisance and/or pose a danger to his customers.

If I want to go into the pub I determine to not get drunk; if I get drunk then I accept that I may in most likelihood not get in.  It's my choice to play to the landlord's rules; on his part he must not breach equality legislation and I don't see the right to not be vaccinated being written into law as an 'equality right'.
		
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Being vaccinated will not be a protected category (age, gender, religion etc) in discrimination law. Most major religions have stated that taking the vax is fine so a religious defence is likely to be rejected on a public health hazard basis.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2021)

Johnson and Johnson single shot vaccine has been approved in America. Studies show that it gives 66% protection. Not sure I'd be too chuffed being offered that one when the Pfizer and AZ vaccines seem to offer much better protection.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Johnson and Johnson single shot vaccine has been approved in America. Studies show that it gives 66% protection. Not sure I'd be too chuffed being offered that one when the Pfizer and AZ vaccines seem to offer much better protection.
		
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For the less risk people in society or as a yearly booster I'd say it's a great option

Isn't the flu vaccine like 40%?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			For the less risk people in society or as a yearly booster I'd say it's a great option

Isn't the flu vaccine like 40%?
		
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I've no idea. But if I knew there was a flu vaccine that was 95% effective and a different one that was 66% effective I know which one is rather have given the choice.


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## DanFST (Feb 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Johnson and Johnson single shot vaccine has been approved in America. Studies show that it gives 66% protection. Not sure I'd be too chuffed being offered that one when the Pfizer and AZ vaccines seem to offer much better protection.
		
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It it means there are huge amount of more people vaccinated, it somewhat irrelevant.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea. But if I knew there was a flu vaccine that was 95% effective and a different one that was 66% effective I know which one is rather have given the choice.
		
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Lucky that choice doesn't come into the equation

If it's 66% effective at least that's more of the population less likely to be effected full stop


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## DanFST (Feb 24, 2021)

Exactly as above. 

More vaccines - less hosts.
Vaccines appear to reduce transmission also, so a smaller pool of potential hosts, and less chance of one transmitting to another.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Exactly as above.

More vaccines - less hosts.
Vaccines appear to reduce transmission also, so a smaller pool of potential hosts, and less chance of one transmitting to another.
		
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As I posted a bit before I think if they were offered to the under 40s with no underlying I don't think would be a bad idea .. massive amount of people need doing and if can be done quicker only a good thing


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364607781953798146

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364608480800342020


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Johnson and Johnson single shot vaccine has been approved in America. Studies show that it gives 66% protection. Not sure I'd be too chuffed being offered that one when the Pfizer and AZ vaccines seem to offer much better protection.
		
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I'd take it. That is 66% reduction at day 14, so the full effect is almost certainly not yet reached, and it is also likely that the great majority of the other 34% get a significant reduction in severity if they get Covid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364607781953798146

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1364608480800342020

Click to expand...

Certainly going in the right direction - but given most of us should be living pretty restricted lives with minimal contact with others - the day-to-day reduction feels painfully slow.  And even assuming an increased rate of reduction in new infections, I'm thinking we'll be at about 5,000 a day by March 8th.  Hope it's much lower of course but that still seems quite a high number.  At least it's going down.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I'd take it. That is 66% reduction at day 14, so the full effect is almost certainly not yet reached, and it is also likely that the great majority of the other 34% get a significant reduction in severity if they get Covid.
		
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Don't get me wrong, if the Johnson and Johnson gets approved here and that's the one in the needle when I finally go for my jab then it will be going in my arm. I won't be turning it down. But, much like you with your preference for the Pfizer over the AZ, I'd rather have one of those two than the J+J one.


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Don't get me wrong, if the Johnson and Johnson gets approved here and that's the one in the needle when I finally go for my jab then it will be going in my arm. I won't be turning it down. But, much like you with your preference for the Pfizer over the AZ, I'd rather have one of those two than the J+J one.
		
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I think the 66% number underplays the J&J. It was taken a bit too early, and I suspect it would be 80%+ after another week.


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## Crazyface (Feb 24, 2021)

My mum lost her partner yesterday. They never lived together but went everywhere together. He's been in hospital since Boxing Day. Had diabetes and wasn't managing it well. He had loads of falls so was taken in to hospital to find out what was the problem. They found he had a chest infection, then it was one thing after another. Very sad we never got to say goodbye. Mums trying to hold it together but she's been hit very hard. I've spent three hours with her to chat about him today. It was very difficult as her voice kept breaking every time she tried to speak about him. I'll be raising a glass to him tonight, he'd like that.

The world has lost a very very nice man.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 24, 2021)

I mentioned the other week how someone in Italy had mentioned how envious they were of the UKs vaccine rollout. Seems Germany thinks the same.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...-admits-envy-for-uks-vaccine-rollout-12227957


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Bars and restaurants opened at the weekend, and bowls opens tomorrow. Only 4 people per table, and the same for bowls. Numbers weren't good enough to allow movement beyond the town boundaries but that number was hit today and, fingers crossed, will be included in the weekly review on Thursday. Most towns south of us are showing similar numbers but everything north looks to be a few weeks behind. As of next week we should be able to travel down to Almeria and across to Malaga if we want to.
		
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Where in Spain are you based? I've got a colleague that I've done a lot of work with who lived on a boat in the marina at Almeria for many years. He's recently sold it and bought himself a house in a place called Las Vertientes, just off the A92-N.


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## Hobbit (Feb 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Where in Spain are you based? I've got a colleague that I've done a lot of work with who lived on a boat in the marina at Almeria for many years. He's recently sold it and bought himself a house in a place called Las Vertientes, just off the A92-N.
		
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We're in Turre, 40 miles south east of Las Vertientes. About the same distance to Almeria.

The boyfriend of one of the women at the bowls club had a boat down there that he sold last year. He's now living with her somewhere up that way. Not sure their place is that far north, maybe Albox way.


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I mentioned the other week how someone in Italy had mentioned how envious they were of the UKs vaccine rollout. Seems Germany thinks the same.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...-admits-envy-for-uks-vaccine-rollout-12227957

Click to expand...

No issues with sun beds then


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## larmen (Feb 24, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I mentioned the other week how someone in Italy had mentioned how envious they were of the UKs vaccine rollout. Seems Germany thinks the same.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...-admits-envy-for-uks-vaccine-rollout-12227957

Click to expand...

If you want to have some more German news, the Bild is talking about 100 million doses of AZ on the grey market and about 1.2 million doses of AZ sitting unused in fridges because people want Pfizer.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We're in Turre, 40 miles south east of Las Vertientes. About the same distance to Almeria.

The boyfriend of one of the women at the bowls club had a boat down there that he sold last year. He's now living with her somewhere up that way. Not sure their place is that far north, maybe Albox way.
		
Click to expand...

Don't think his girlfriend plays bowls. Never met her but I know she's Russian, and possibly called Irina. Funnily enough I was just having a look at properties in Spain around the Albox area. Don't think that I'll be able to convince Mrs Colch to move but being able to pick up a 5 bed renovation project for 27.5k is certainly an attractive proposition.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/102960467?currencyCode=GBP#/


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## Hobbit (Feb 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Don't think his girlfriend plays bowls. Never met her but I know she's Russian, and possibly called Irina. Funnily enough I was just having a look at properties in Spain around the Albox area. Don't think that I'll be able to convince Mrs Colch to move but being able to pick up a 5 bed renovation project for 27.5k is certainly an attractive proposition.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/102960467?currencyCode=GBP#/

Click to expand...

This guy's girlfriend sounds Russian, she's from Liverpool. 

Property is cheap, especially renovation projects. The one you've posted up isn't the cheapest. Buying direct from a Spanish agent is cheaper. Add 10% for stamp duties and fees. And if using local builders, don't use expats. They charge Brit prices.

Residencia, now the UK is no longer in the EU, is expensive. Basically, a minimum income of €27k a year - it was €9k.

Albox is a nice area but cold outside of the summer season. We can be in shorts and t-shirt down here now but its jeans, sweater and a jacket up there.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2021)

Apparently the NHS booking site for covid has updated to over 60s but hasn't published yet

I know people who have booked in that age group 

Book anyone who can


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## upsidedown (Feb 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently the NHS booking site for covid has updated to over 60s but hasn't published yet

I know people who have booked in that age group 

Book anyone who can
		
Click to expand...

Booked in couple of days ago for Monday 😉


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			This guy's girlfriend sounds Russian, she's from Liverpool.

Property is cheap, especially renovation projects. The one you've posted up isn't the cheapest. Buying direct from a Spanish agent is cheaper. Add 10% for stamp duties and fees. And if using local builders, don't use expats. They charge Brit prices.

Residencia, now the UK is no longer in the EU, is expensive. Basically, a minimum income of €27k a year - it was €9k.

Albox is a nice area but cold outside of the summer season. We can be in shorts and t-shirt down here now but its jeans, sweater and a jacket up there.
		
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It's nothing more than a pipe dream at the minute. Will take a lot of convincing for Mrs Colch and the two jnr Colch's to even consider it. If I get anywhere with it I might have to pick your brains on the best areas to look and foreign language schools for the boys etc but I don't think I've got a chance of making it happen.


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## backwoodsman (Feb 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently the NHS booking site for covid has updated to over 60s but hasn't published yet

I know people who have booked in that age group

Book anyone who can
		
Click to expand...

Well, well,  well.  Just seen this, so thought I'd give it a go.  And am booked in for tomorrow. 
Even better is that Mrs B will never again be able to criticise about me looking at the golf forum 

Edit: Ps; worth noting that when I looked at the NHS booking page, it was still saying  it was available for "over 64" - so if you're 60-63 keep going like I  did.


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## ExRabbit (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Apparently the NHS booking site for covid has updated to over 60s but hasn't published yet

I know people who have booked in that age group

Book anyone who can
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that - I'm 60 and my wife is 59, so I tried her too and it was a no-no.

I could get a jab tomorrow, but not at a local centre, so I might wait a day or two.


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## bobmac (Feb 25, 2021)

I just tried it (61)... getting jabbed tomorrow


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I just tried it (61)... getting jabbed tomorrow 

Click to expand...

My aunt posted it on fb from her local councillor

Then carol vodermon has posted same on twitter

Hopefully gets the uptake ticking over


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2021)

Had a quick look last night and was able to get to the point that I could choose a vaccination centre so I guess that means I will be able to book an appointment so will have a look and book later.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Had a quick look last night and was able to get to the point that I could choose a vaccination centre so I guess that means I will be able to book an appointment so will have a look and book later.
		
Click to expand...

Grab your diary because you will be able to book both jabs 

I booked my mum's first jab for next week then second jab for may 

Me and dad were called by our drs . So I just used this service to book mine and his second date for a day I know I'm off work


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## bobmac (Feb 25, 2021)

Even though the NHS website says its for over 64s, there were plenty of  times available, so better to have someone getting the vaccine than no-one.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Had a quick look last night and was able to get to the point that I could choose a vaccination centre so I guess that means I will be able to book an appointment so will have a look and book later.
		
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SILH, what area are you in, In Notts you have been able to do that for over a month. Meant a bit of travelling if you wanted to get in earlier which kinda went against the stay local rule.


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

People should not feel shy about trying the website and if it gives you an appointment, great, attend it. The name of the game now is pushing people through fast. The more that are vaccinated, the less chance there is for Covid to circulate, fewer new cases, fewer mutations and new strains.


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## NearHull (Feb 25, 2021)

The website requires your NHS  number before inputting your birthdate.  if you are registered vulnerable against your NHS No, would it allow a booking, irrespective of age, or as I suspect is the main filter that allows a booking the birthdate?
(my wife and I both booked through the website by trying every day until it allowed us through to book)


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## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2021)

Almost certainly for all the wrong reasons... But, have a feeling that I've very much had a 2nd class jab with AZ... Yep, I am certainly in a better place for having the jab but keep getting these little 'doubts' creep into my head...


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

Just looked at the NHS website for booking (sure looks like the correct site). It distinctly states at the beginning that it is only for 65 and older. Are people just ignoring the rules and doing what they want? I hope these aren't the same people that have been reminding people to follow the rules on Covid for the last year..............


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

NearHull said:



			The website requires your NHS  number before inputting your birthdate.  if you are registered vulnerable against your NHS No, would it allow a booking, irrespective of age, or as I suspect is the main filter that allows a booking the birthdate?
(my wife and I both booked through the website by trying every day until it allowed us through to book)
		
Click to expand...

Incorrect there you don't need your NHS number 

You can enter it

Or use your dob , name and postcode 

Either way it works


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Just looked at the NHS website for booking (sure looks like the correct site). It distinctly states at the beginning that it is only for 65 and older. Are people just ignoring the rules and doing what they want? I hope these aren't the same people that have been reminding people to follow the rules on Covid for the last year..............
		
Click to expand...

If the site let's you book you are allowed to. As Ethan says 

If your not allowed it won't let you

My wife is suppose to be upgraded to be allowed but hasn't been yet so can't book but my mum can even tho she is 61.. but she couldn't last week

Keep trying your details is not wrong or breaking any rules. They want everyone done and will only offer you appointment if in your area you can have it

Simple


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			People should not feel shy about trying the website and if it gives you an appointment, great, attend it. The name of the game now is pushing people through fast. The more that are vaccinated, the less chance there is for Covid to circulate, fewer new cases, fewer mutations and new strains.
		
Click to expand...

Plus if the site let's you then it's fine. My mum couldn't last week but could yesterday 

My wife still can't as drs hasn't updated her yet

She told her friends they all booked


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

So......ignore the rules if it will let you.....do what you think is best for yourself? Got it....


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			So......ignore the rules if it will let you.....do what you think is best for yourself? Got it....
		
Click to expand...

Hmm considering my wife is pre existing conditions and it says clearly there that it's for them im not ignoring the rules

There was a post yesterday that the NHS site was incorrectly saying over 64s (last week said over 65s) also there is no over 64 cat anyways they said it should say over 60s

Funny how all the over 60s can book now isn't it? Almost like it was right

Feel free to wait but the NHS want people to book themsleves they don't want to send letters they want people to be proactive and keep trying the site until their allowed to book

If the site let's you book = your allowed the jab 

If the site says "you are unable to use this service" after putting in your name, dob, and postcode then guess what. Your not allowed the jab 

Really is simple


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			So......ignore the rules if it will let you.....do what you think is best for yourself? Got it....
		
Click to expand...

Who is saying that? The rollout is taking place at different pace in different places, and you will only be let book if you match the criteria that apply in your area at the time (assuming you have not been misreported as being 6.2 cm tall). If the system lets you book an appointment, then you are eligible and not queue jumping and you should book and attend. Faffing around calling the surgery, postponing, booking again is not helpful and only wastes time that could be used vaccinating.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Who is saying that? The rollout is taking place at different pace in different places, and you will only be let book if you match the criteria that apply in your area at the time (assuming you have not been misreported as being 6.2 cm tall). If the system lets you book an appointment, then you are eligible and not queue jumping and you should book and attend. Faffing around calling the surgery, postponing, booking again is not helpful and only wastes time that could be used vaccinating.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you Ethan couldn't say better myself.

My mum is very excited to get her jab especially as she returns to the classroom the week after. She feels a lot safer 

But hey some people won't listen regardless they will wait for a letter that will delay the process ..


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## bobmac (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Thank you Ethan couldn't say better myself.

My mum is very excited to get her jab especially as she returns to the classroom the week after. She feels a lot safer

But hey some people won't listen regardless they will wait for a letter that *will delay the process* ..
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, or you'll have vaccination teams sitting around doing nothing.
The sooner everyone gets the vaccine the better.


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## DanFST (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			So......ignore the rules if it will let you.....do what you think is best for yourself? Got it....
		
Click to expand...

Backend and front end are different things in web development.

The actual system will be up to date, and only allow you to book if you are allowed. The age you see on the main web page will be updated manually by a person.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Had a quick look last night and was able to get to the point that I could choose a vaccination centre so I guess that means I will be able to book an appointment so will have a look and book later.
		
Click to expand...

I have just tried to book an appointment and I get a message...

_You were unable to go to/missed your 1st appointment to get the coronavirus vaccination.  _

_This means you need to book both of your appointments again._

_Click continue to book both of your appointments again._

Last night I got to the point of being offered vaccination centres close to me.  Not this time - and I am confused as I have not yet booked an appointment (and so clearly also can't have missed it).  But OK - so I tried clicking Continue to book my appointments again and simply looped to the same message.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			So......ignore the rules if it will let you.....do what you think is best for yourself? Got it....
		
Click to expand...

Ignore what rules ?

If the website allows someone to book then  it means that no rule is being broken - my brother who is 40 and his wife who is 36 have both had the vaccine because my parents were working at the centre and they had vaccines left over that had to be used - there isn’t a set of “rules” to follow with the vaccine program


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Exactly, or you'll have vaccination teams sitting around doing nothing.
The sooner everyone gets the vaccine the better.
		
Click to expand...

Plus myself and my dad were contacted directly by the NHS service to book. We did so and were told they would contact again for second jab 

I tried my details just to see and it offered me second jab 11 weeks after My first so me and dad booked it in for the same day


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have just tried to book an appointment and I get a message...

_You were unable to go to/missed your 1st appointment to get the coronavirus vaccination.  _

_This means you need to book both of your appointments again._

_Click continue to book both of your appointments again._

I am confused as I have not yet booked an appointment (and so clearly also can't have missed it).  But OK - so I tried clicking Continue to book my appointments again and simply looped to the same message.



Click to expand...

Dw mate I did same as you with second I left the process 

Basically if you filled it in just click book again and it will let you

You didn't complete your booking that's why


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ignore what rules ?

If the website allows someone to book then  it means that no rule is being broken - my brother who is 40 and his wife who is 36 have both had the vaccine because my parents were working at the centre and they had vaccines left over that had to be used - there isn’t a set of “rules” to follow with the vaccine program
		
Click to expand...

Another smart decision. Need to maximize role out efficiency not just wait behind set numbers that could delay everything 

That's two less people to worry about when it comes to everyone


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Backend and front end are different things in web development.

The actual system will be up to date, and only allow you to book if you are allowed. The age you see on the main web page will be updated manually by a person.
		
Click to expand...

Also if this was an error the amount of over 60s that have booked as it's been online, twitter and fb aswell it would have been removed by now and updated so you can't book


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ignore what rules ?

If the website allows someone to book then  it means that no rule is being broken - my brother who is 40 and his wife who is 36 have both had the vaccine because my parents were working at the centre and they had vaccines left over that had to be used - there isn’t a set of “rules” to follow with the vaccine program
		
Click to expand...

This....off the front page of the NHS site. Distinctly states who is supposed to use the site. 

*Who can use this service*
You can only use this service if any of the following apply:


you are aged 64 or over
you have previously received a letter saying you are at high risk from coronavirus (clinically extremely vulnerable)
you are an eligible frontline health worker
you are an eligible frontline social care worker
you are eligible for Carer's Allowance – find out more about Carer's Allowance on GOV.UK


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			This....off the front page of the NHS site. Distinctly states who is supposed to use the site.

*Who can use this service*
You can only use this service if any of the following apply:


you are aged 64 or over
you have previously received a letter saying you are at high risk from coronavirus (clinically extremely vulnerable)
you are an eligible frontline health worker
you are an eligible frontline social care worker
you are eligible for Carer's Allowance – find out more about Carer's Allowance on GOV.UK


Click to expand...

Right.

You have Liverpoolphil and myself agreeing on a subject for first time in forum history

You have Ethan who works for the NHS I believe agreeing

You have Dan who explained how websites work front end and back end

And the fact websites don't just let anyone book if your 59 it won't work 

Yet their everyone else is incorrect because you think your right?

Take a look at yourself


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			This....off the front page of the NHS site. Distinctly states who is supposed to use the site.

*Who can use this service*
You can only use this service if any of the following apply:


you are aged 64 or over
you have previously received a letter saying you are at high risk from coronavirus (clinically extremely vulnerable)
you are an eligible frontline health worker
you are an eligible frontline social care worker
you are eligible for Carer's Allowance – find out more about Carer's Allowance on GOV.UK


Click to expand...

It’s not hardened fast rules , one of the guys who works for me was told to use the site and he is below 64 - it’s a generic front page because not all the local areas are at the same level - some are now doing under 60’s with Asthma , and the website will allow you to book if your NHS number has been flagged by the GP or postcode is in an area doing under 64’s now

At the end of the day people are getting the vaccine - that’s all that matters , the vunerable have had and now they are going to finish the population- I don’t care if I get it tomorrow or I’m the very last person to get it , they are doing an amazing job and the public have got right behind them 

No one is breaking rules or queue jumping in the UK


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Right.

You have Liverpoolphil and myself agreeing on a subject for first time in forum history

You have Ethan who works for the NHS I believe agreeing

You have Dan who explained how websites work front end and back end

And the fact websites don't just let anyone book if your 59 it won't work

Yet their everyone else is incorrect because you think your right?

Take a look at yourself
		
Click to expand...

I hate to look at myself....getting old. 

I am following the rules put out by the NHS, why are you so upset?


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## bobmac (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I hate to look at myself....getting old.

I am following the rules put out by the NHS, why are you so upset?
		
Click to expand...

And the rules are if you are 60 or over, you can get vaccinated.
The website is simply out of date


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And the rules are if you are 60 or over, you can get vaccinated.
The website is simply out of date
		
Click to expand...

When did that happen? Haven't heard on the news or anything....if that's true, then I'll give it a try. Thanks for some useful info.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I hate to look at myself....getting old.

I am following the rules put out by the NHS, why are you so upset?
		
Click to expand...

Your not following the rules your being a pedant. If your over 60 try your details and it lets you book take your jab and don't be a complete idiot 

Why delay your jab just because the front of the website is out of date .. the NHS has more to deal with than updating the website 

If the system let's you book then your entitled


My mother in law is 56 and she can't book she tried so it does work 

I work with someone his wife is high up in the vaccine roll out. He asked her and she says over 60s should be able to book online and if site accepts your details then you are entitled

Feel free to wait and delay the recover from covid


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			When did that happen? Haven't heard on the news or anything....if that's true, then I'll give it a try. Thanks for some useful info.
		
Click to expand...

So Ethan's information wasn't useful then was it? Considering he told you the same and he works for the NHS!


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So Ethan's information wasn't useful then was it? Considering he told you the same and he works for the NHS!
		
Click to expand...

That I know of, Ethan isn't the NHS spokesperson. He gives some great advice though. My step-daughter works for the NHS as well....and......??

I know I argue too much.....I wonder if you do?


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			So......ignore the rules if it will let you.....do what you think is best for yourself? Got it....
		
Click to expand...

I’m amazed how many people have had it and I think, isn’t there somebody more vulnerable than you that should have it first?
 Don’t get me wrong if this was some vaccine for a rampant haemorrhagic fever I’d trample on anyone, so good for you all! 

People would shun me for my selfishness and views on segregating society and certain groups but suddenly we’re all not so different! 

There’s a seat in hell right next to me, welcome to the dark side!


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			That I know of, Ethan isn't the NHS spokesperson. He gives some great advice though. My step-daughter works for the NHS as well....and......??

I know I argue too much.....I wonder if you do?
		
Click to expand...

Have you asked her advise before mouthing off?

Least I checked my sources (IE somebody who is directly involved with the vaccine roll out)

Least my "arguing" is getting more people vaccinated like Bob, swings like etc meaning it's done quicker

What you arguing for? Just to sit there self righteous and be like nope I will wait until I get a letter by the post.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’m amazed how many people have had it and I think, isn’t there somebody more vulnerable than you that should have it first?
Don’t get me wrong if this was some vaccine for a rampant haemorrhagic fever I’d trample on anyone, so good for you all!

People would shun me for my selfishness and views on segregating society and certain groups but suddenly we’re all not so different!

There’s a seat in hell right next to me, welcome to the dark side!
		
Click to expand...

I'm 33. I didn't even know My condition meant I got a jab early 

But 2 weeks ago I got the txt.

Asked Mt mate who's wife is involved in roll out

He said just take it.


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Have you asked her advise before mouthing off?

Least I checked my sources (IE somebody who is directly involved with the vaccine roll out)

Least my "arguing" is getting more people vaccinated like Bob, swings like etc meaning it's done quicker

What you arguing for? Just to sit there self righteous and be like nope I will wait until I get a letter by the post.
		
Click to expand...

 Just keep arguing......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2021)

Booked in for Tuesday of next week - and I am not (yet) 64 or over.


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Booked in for Tuesday of next week - and I am not (yet) 64 or over.
		
Click to expand...

I'm giving it a try at the moment....waiting for my wife to come in. Sure be nice if they would announce it on the news at least if it's ok.


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Right.

You have Liverpoolphil and myself agreeing on a subject for first time in forum history

You have Ethan who works for the NHS I believe agreeing

You have Dan who explained how websites work front end and back end

And the fact websites don't just let anyone book if your 59 it won't work

Yet their everyone else is incorrect because you think your right?

Take a look at yourself
		
Click to expand...

I used to work for the NHS but now work in pharmaceutical R&D.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I'm giving it a try at the moment....waiting for my wife to come in. Sure be nice if they would announce it on the news at least if it's ok.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2021/02/over-60s-can-book-their-covid-vaccination-online-now/

Ease your mind tiny bit


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I used to work for the NHS but now work in pharmaceutical R&D.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies wasn't sure 

However my point stands 

A wise head

Myself and Phil who always disagree

Must be something in it


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## jim8flog (Feb 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Is that within 12 weeks of your first, just out of curiosity?

I ask only because you’re the first person I have read/heard of getting an appointment for your second jab. What’s your experience of the process been?
		
Click to expand...

 Where I live you are invited to book the second jab at the same time as booking the first with date being offered appropriate to the date of the first jab. My first jab at a vaccination centre was arrived, walked in to the tent a few questions, a joke or two with the nurse quick jab and out, all less than 5 minutes then a 15 minute advised sit in the car before driving home.

My daughter, who works close to the centre, said there have been queues outside some days but others have said they are very quick moving.


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## Bdill93 (Feb 25, 2021)

My best mate - 27 years old - had asthma as a kid but not suffered since about 15/16 years old - offered vaccine by his GP and took it.

Hes perfectly fit and healthy, but if offered, whos going to say no? Apprently his GP is just "ahead" with their vaccine programme


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Apologies wasn't sure

However my point stands

A wise head

Myself and Phil who always disagree

Must be something in it
		
Click to expand...

Still can't let it go......


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Still can't let it go......
		
Click to expand...

In your area you must be slightly behind than others

For example some are so far ahead the over 50s have been offered 

My area allows the over 60s as does a lot of the country 

It won't be long. Keep trying every few days and it will work


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## jim8flog (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My aunt posted it on fb from her local councillor

Then carol vodermon has posted same on twitter

Hopefully gets the uptake ticking over
		
Click to expand...

 She certainly gets my ticker going


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			She certainly gets my ticker going
		
Click to expand...

Looks remarkable for her age


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			That I know of, Ethan isn't the NHS spokesperson. He gives some great advice though. My step-daughter works for the NHS as well....and......??

I know I argue too much.....I wonder if you do?
		
Click to expand...

You are right, I am not an NHS spokesperson.

I see it pretty simply. If you get a legit invite for vax, take it. If you go on the site and your local service is accepting people like you, you will be able to make an appointment. If they are not accepting people like you, you won't. There will be no queue jumping.

The age limit from gov.uk you quoted is what you might call the national limit, but locally, some areas are moving faster and have opened up to younger groups. If your local service is accepting younger patients, you are helping the national effort by adding to the cohort of vaccinated people and reducing the number still to be done. You really aren't doing anybody a favour by hanging back.


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are right, I am not an NHS spokesperson.

I see it pretty simply. If you get a legit invite for vax, take it. If you go on the site and your local service is accepting people like you, you will be able to make an appointment. If they are not accepting people like you, you won't. There will be no queue jumping.

The age limit from gov.uk you quoted is what you might call the national limit, but locally, some areas are moving faster and have opened up to younger groups. If your local service is accepting younger patients, you are helping the national effort by adding to the cohort of vaccinated people and reducing the number still to be done. You really aren't doing anybody a favour by hanging back.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Ethan. I booked both myself and wife a little while ago because of the discussion here (March 12 was the first). I just don't understand why there hasn't been an announcement that people like myself (63, wife 60) are able to book a jab. Feel a little bad sliding into an appointment like this without "permission".....


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Thanks Ethan. I booked both myself and wife a little while ago because of the discussion here (March 12 was the first). I just don't understand why there hasn't been an announcement that people like myself (63, wife 60) are able to book a jab. Feel a little bad sliding into an appointment like this without "permission".....
		
Click to expand...

Can't believe you didn't wait your turn


Hypocrite 🤣

Good for you 

Hope your jab goes well


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## Crazyface (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Booked in for Tuesday of next week - and I am not (yet) 64 or over.
		
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Wow, they're up to 58 y/o round here.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Wow, they're up to 58 y/o round here.
		
Click to expand...

Good work 👍


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## Crazyface (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Looks remarkable for her age
		
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Plastic Surgery me thinks, well...wife scoffs, actually.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 25, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			She certainly gets my ticker going
		
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The latest round of cosmetic surgery has left her looking like a 🐿


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2021)

We're spitting tacks at the moment having just heard from our daughter of multiple friends of hers - friends that we ourselves know - who are using the latitude that the current rules provide to quite deliberately act in ways that overstep the mark into behaviour that risks cross-infection and spread.  And they use the rules to justify their behaviour - well...they say - we're only just a little bit breaking the rules - just a bit over - and after all...nobody will really notice - all done surreptitiously.

Their behaviour is reckless, selfish and disrespectful to those who have died; those who have lost loved ones; those who have watched loved ones suffer alone, and those who's lives have been wrecked or are on hold - for whom an end to this is not simply needed as respite from boredom or the frustration that gives rise to 'i've had enough of this...'

Many people are looking to the future with desperation and fear - and such as my daughter's friends are only exacerbating things.  And the thing is - they know better - but simply think that - well - it'll be alright.  I myself fear that it just won't.  Given an inch - many seem to be taking a mile.  And so I fear for the way the re-opening of schools is expected to happen...and the expected behaviours that will be essential to make that safe and low risk in respect of transmission of the virus.

Unfortunately my wife took her anger and frustration out on our daughter - it's not her fault... after all  - her b/f is one of those whose life is on hold and who depends upon things opening back up for his work to resume.


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## Slime (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We're spitting tacks at the moment having just heard from our daughter of multiple friends of hers - friends that we ourselves know - who are using the latitude that the current rules provide to quite deliberately act in ways that overstep the mark into behaviour that risks cross-infection and spread.  And they use the rules to justify their behaviour - well...they say - we're only just a little bit breaking the rules - just a bit over - and after all...nobody will really notice - all done surreptitiously.

Their behaviour is reckless, selfish and disrespectful to those who have died; those who have lost loved ones; those who have watched loved ones suffer alone, and those who's lives have been wrecked or are on hold - for whom an end to this is not simply needed as respite from boredom or the frustration that gives rise to 'i've had enough of this...'

Many people are looking to the future with desperation and fear - and such as my daughter's friends are only exacerbating things.  And the thing is - they know better - but simply think that - well - it'll be alright.  I myself fear that it just won't.  Given an inch - many seem to be taking a mile.  And so I fear for the way the re-opening of schools is expected to happen...and the expected behaviours that will be essential to make that safe and low risk in respect of transmission of the virus.
		
Click to expand...

Report them?


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## SaintHacker (Feb 25, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			My best mate - 27 years old - had asthma as a kid but not suffered since about 15/16 years old - offered vaccine by his GP and took it.

Hes perfectly fit and healthy, but if offered, whos going to say no? Apprently his GP is just "ahead" with their vaccine programme
		
Click to expand...

A couple of mates who are in their late 40s got the text out of the blue, bothbwent and had it without question although neither could really understand why they were eligible. I think where I live we are well ahead of the curve.

If it lets you book it then get on and do it, you're not queue jumping. Different areas are clearly at different stages of the roll out. And the sooner you crusties all get done the sooner us whippersnappers will get ours!😉😂


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Thanks Ethan. I booked both myself and wife a little while ago because of the discussion here (March 12 was the first). I just don't understand why there hasn't been an announcement that people like myself (63, wife 60) are able to book a jab. Feel a little bad sliding into an appointment like this without "permission".....
		
Click to expand...

Because not everywhere is ready for that group. The populations differ and some places have been faster off the mark. Others will probably catch up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2021)

Slime said:



			Report them?
		
Click to expand...

yes...I know...they are all close friends of us and our daughter...it is really difficult but we really should...and that is why we are so angry.  it's the thinking that says - 'Only my friends will know and they won't clipe on me'

But it is I fear an attitude that is prevalent across the country across all demographics and communities.  I'm being given an inch - well - no one will really notice if I take a mile - just this once...or twice.  It's systemic on being given latitude for our behaviours.


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## Bdill93 (Feb 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			A couple of mates who are in their late 40s got the text out of the blue, bothbwent and had it without question although neither could really understand why they were eligible. I think where I live we are well ahead of the curve.

If it lets you book it then get on and do it, you're not queue jumping. Different areas are clearly at different stages of the roll out. And the sooner you crusties all get done the sooner us whippersnappers will get ours!😉😂
		
Click to expand...

When you say "you crusties".... you know im in my 20's right


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## SaintHacker (Feb 25, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			When you say "you crusties".... you know im in my 20's right 

Click to expand...

Was more of a general post rather than being aimed at you 😂😂


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Because not everywhere is ready for that group. The populations differ and some places have been faster off the mark. Others will probably catch up.
		
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Thanks....it makes sense when you explained why.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			A couple of mates who are in their late 40s got the text out of the blue, bothbwent and had it without question although neither could really understand why they were eligible. I think where I live we are well ahead of the curve.

If it lets you book it then get on and do it, you're not queue jumping. Different areas are clearly at different stages of the roll out. And the sooner you crusties all get done the sooner us whippersnappers will get ours!😉😂
		
Click to expand...

Same happened to the lad next door to me, he, as far as he is aware, is healthy, can’t remember the last time he went the docs, he’s 47, contacted by GP, only thing he can think off is that he had a deep vein thrombosis 12 years ago, but even that may be stretching it.🤷‍♂️


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## ger147 (Feb 25, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Same happened to the lad next door to me, he, as far as he is aware, is healthy, can’t remember the last time he went the docs, he’s 47, contacted by GP, only thing he can think off is that he had a deep vein thrombosis 12 years ago, but even that may be stretching it.🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

I'm waiting for my GP to phone me back. I took an allergic reaction to some tulips back in 1987, worth a try...


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## SaintHacker (Feb 25, 2021)

I've had some stinking hangovers the last few months, surley thats got to count for something?🤔


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## Paperboy (Feb 25, 2021)

Good news for my close family, Dad had his a few weeks ago no reaction. SIL with underlying conditions gets hers first week of March, then my Mom gets hers 2 days later.

So all three should've both their injections before I get mind. Couldn't be happier.


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Thanks....it makes sense when you explained why.
		
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No problem. So you might imagine that Eastbourne, for example, with a very large retired community, might take longer to get through them than somewhere with a much younger demographic, but ince Eastbourne gets through the retired, will speed up a lot going down through the youngsters.


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## larmen (Feb 25, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			only thing he can think off is that he had a deep vein thrombosis 12 years ago, but even that may be stretching it.🤷‍♂️
		
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The way Ethan explained the immune reaction and why people seem to recover before suddenly passing away involved blood clods. At least in my memory.
And if you once had them it’s more likely to get them again. So a risk group.


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## Hobbit (Feb 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			A couple of mates who are in their late 40s got the text out of the blue, bothbwent and had it without question although neither could really understand why they were eligible. I think where I live we are well ahead of the curve.

If it lets you book it then get on and do it, you're not queue jumping. Different areas are clearly at different stages of the roll out. And the sooner you crusties all get done the sooner us whippersnappers will get ours!😉😂
		
Click to expand...

Whippersnapper?!? 

You've obviously had a hard life


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## SaintHacker (Feb 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Whippersnapper?!? 

Click to expand...

Compared to you I'm just a baby


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## backwoodsman (Feb 25, 2021)

Just been jabbed!   In less than 24hrs from finding out I was now eligible.

All thanks to Pauljames87 for giving us the heads-up yesterday.


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## chrisd (Feb 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I've had some stinking hangovers the last few months, surley thats got to count for something?🤔
		
Click to expand...

Football related I'd guess 😖


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			So......ignore the rules if it will let you.....do what you think is best for yourself? Got it....
		
Click to expand...

The age requirement has changed and the web site was updated to allow 60+. Nobodys ignoring rules, we are actively informing 60+ to get on and book in our area to fill booking slots.

We would rather not stand around doing nothing when vaccines are available.


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## Hobbit (Feb 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Compared to you I'm just a baby 

Click to expand...

How is the incontinence going for you...?


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have just tried to book an appointment and I get a message...

_You were unable to go to/missed your 1st appointment to get the coronavirus vaccination.  _

_This means you need to book both of your appointments again._

_Click continue to book both of your appointments again._

Last night I got to the point of being offered vaccination centres close to me.  Not this time - and I am confused as I have not yet booked an appointment (and so clearly also can't have missed it).  But OK - so I tried clicking Continue to book my appointments again and simply looped to the same message.



Click to expand...

Had that with HID just changed appointment dates and all ok. It's down to quick fingers unfortunately.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Just been jabbed!   In less than 24hrs from finding out I was now eligible.

All thanks to Pauljames87 for giving us the heads-up yesterday. 

Click to expand...

Glad to be of assistance 😊


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Almost certainly for all the wrong reasons... But, have a feeling that I've very much had a 2nd class jab with AZ... Yep, I am certainly in a better place for having the jab but keep getting these little 'doubts' creep into my head...
		
Click to expand...

I have previously stated that I would prefer the Pfizer jab (I will find out tomorrow which one I get), but I will happily accept the AZ one. Neither is a second class jab. One may be a BMW, the other a Toyota, but both go pretty well. 

Both AZ and Pfizer, as well as other vaccines approved or reported so far like Moderna, Novavax and Janssen, provide strong protection against a combination of prevention of getting Covid and not getting a severe case. The latter is often overlooked in the headline figure. 

Keep your nose clean for a couple of weeks after your first jab and you can be reasonably confident you are in good shape.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I have previously stated that I would prefer the Pfizer jab (I will find out tomorrow which one I get), but I will happily accept the AZ one. Neither is a second class jab. One may be a BMW, the other a Toyota, but both go pretty well.

Both AZ and Pfizer, as well as other vaccines approved or reported so far like Moderna, Novavax and Janssen, provide strong protection against a combination of prevention of getting Covid and not getting a severe case. The latter is often overlooked in the headline figure.

Keep your nose clean for a couple of weeks after your first jab and you can be reasonably confident you are in good shape.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I'd want a BMW of a jab, you'd end up having to pay for to many extras


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## IainP (Feb 25, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Almost certainly for all the wrong reasons... But, have a feeling that I've very much had a 2nd class jab with AZ... Yep, I am certainly in a better place for having the jab but keep getting these little 'doubts' creep into my head...
		
Click to expand...

Know Ethan's already replied. Think this was posted before but may also help ease the 'doubts'.
Whilst they stress this was not a comparison the stats do seem encouraging 
https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n523


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## DanFST (Feb 25, 2021)

Really is a shame the AZ Vaccine has an image problem in the EU.


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Really is a shame the AZ Vaccine has an image problem in the EU.
		
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More for everyone else


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2021)

No idea what I'll be getting next Tuesday - but am I bovvered...?


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## DanFST (Feb 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			More for everyone else
		
Click to expand...

I think the only outcome is that some might go to waste. Not good.


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The age requirement has changed and the web site was updated to allow 60+. Nobodys ignoring rules, we are actively informing 60+ to get on and book in our area to fill booking slots.

We would rather not stand around doing nothing when vaccines are available.
		
Click to expand...

I'm already on it....just because of what I've read on this site. Because of that my wife and I are booked in for jabs on 12 March.....no way I would have known if I only watched the news. Which comes around to my original comments and how people don't know that they can do it.....without breaking the rules. I assumed I couldn't, but checked anyway because of this thread. You shouldn't have to depend on* word of mouth* to find things out.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I think the only outcome is that some might go to waste. Not good.
		
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It will go to 3rd world nations and rightly so


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I'm already on it....just because of what I've read on this site. Because of that my wife and I are booked in for jabs on 12 March.....no way I would have known if I only watched the news. Which comes around to my original comments and how people don't know that they can do it.....without breaking the rules. I assumed I couldn't, but checked anyway because of this thread. You shouldn't have to depend on* word of mouth* to find things out.
		
Click to expand...

One of the most powerful tools the NHS can use in this is word of mouth

Not just for booking 

But for people sharing their experience with the vaccine which might encourage a nervous friend to go forward for theirs 

I do agree it needs better advertising but the other day they called for all over 70s I don't remember all over 65s being called by the news , think they want people to check the site


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I'm already on it....just because of what I've read on this site. Because of that my wife and I are booked in for jabs on 12 March.....no way I would have known if I only watched the news. Which comes around to my original comments and how people don't know that they can do it.....*without breaking the rules.* I assumed I couldn't, but checked anyway because of this thread. You shouldn't have to depend on* word of mouth* to find things out.
		
Click to expand...

What rules do you believe have been broken ?

You cannot book a vaccine unless you are eligible for one in the area you live - it’s been explained to you a number of times now 

No one has “broken any rules”

You have been passed information on here which has helped you get a vaccine and it’s good thing yet you point fingers at the people who have helped 🤦‍♂️


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## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I have previously stated that I would prefer the Pfizer jab (I will find out tomorrow which one I get), but I will happily accept the AZ one. Neither is a second class jab. One may be a BMW, the other a Toyota, but both go pretty well.

Both AZ and Pfizer, as well as other vaccines approved or reported so far like Moderna, Novavax and Janssen, provide strong protection against a combination of prevention of getting Covid and not getting a severe case. The latter is often overlooked in the headline figure.

Keep your nose clean for a couple of weeks after your first jab and you can be reasonably confident you are in good shape.
		
Click to expand...


As I indicated my feelings/doubts are likely unfounded and that I am very certainly in a whole lot better place than many many others... But, there is a but ...

And, I have every intention of keeping my "nose clean" for a good while... Thanks for your positive [understanding] response... Much appreciated ...


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## banjofred (Feb 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What rules do you believe have been broken ?

You cannot book a vaccine unless you are eligible for one in the area you live - it’s been explained to you a number of times now

No one has “broken any rules”

You have been passed information on here which has helped you get a vaccine and it’s good thing yet you point fingers at the people who have helped 🤦‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Give it a rest LP.....look.....*squirrels!!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	



*Just read what I friggin wrote and think......


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 25, 2021)

Don't want to steal Phil's daily thunder here, but the one thing from the daily numbers that stood out in my eyes was the cases vs tests.

Amount of tests the last 7 days have increased with 11% while total positives results have decreased almost 16%.

That is fantastic numbers, or is it me who don't understand basic statistics?


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Don't want to steal Phil's daily thunder here, but the one thing from the daily numbers that stood out in my eyes was the cases vs tests.

Amount of tests the last 7 days have increased with 11% while total positives results have decreased almost 16%.

That is fantastic numbers, or is it me who don't understand basic statistics?

View attachment 35281

Click to expand...


It certainly suggests a lower positivity rate, which we would expect right now, but the denominator of tests is such a mess with quite different subsets, it is a bit hard to know for sure what is going on.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 25, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Really is a shame the AZ Vaccine has an image problem in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Is it an "image problem" or is it political shenanigans?
Or, is there some science driving the reticence?

All the NHS folk I know have been Pfizer'd... Coincidence or good reason?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 25, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Is it an "image problem" or is it political shenanigans?
Or, is there some science driving the reticence?

All the NHS folk I know have been Pfizer'd... Coincidence or good reason?
		
Click to expand...

It was ready first and they needed jabbing quick

AZ only approved new year


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## Old Skier (Feb 25, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Is it an "image problem" or is it political shenanigans?
Or, is there some science driving the reticence?

All the NHS folk I know have been Pfizer'd... Coincidence or good reason?
		
Click to expand...

Most were done in NHS sites which had the low temp facilities required.


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## upsidedown (Feb 25, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Is it an "image problem" or is it political shenanigans?
Or, is there some science driving the reticence?

All the NHS folk I know have been Pfizer'd... Coincidence or good reason?
		
Click to expand...

In my wife's case who is NHS and a vaccinator the hospitals have the facilities to store the Pfiizer but hubs don't so go with the Az?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 25, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			In my wife's case who is NHS and a vaccinator the hospitals have the facilities to store the Pfiizer but hubs don't so go with the Az?
		
Click to expand...

Some GP surgeries also have the facilities for Pfizer.


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## road2ruin (Feb 25, 2021)

Good news that the UK Covid alert level has been dropped from 5 to 4 so things continue to go in the right direction....

Level five (red), the highest level, is when there is a "material risk of healthcare services being overwhelmed" within 21 days, and extremely strict social distancing is enforced.

*Level four indicates a high or rising level of transmission, with social distancing still enforced.*


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## Ethan (Feb 25, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Is it an "image problem" or is it political shenanigans?
Or, is there some science driving the reticence?

All the NHS folk I know have been Pfizer'd... Coincidence or good reason?
		
Click to expand...

Pfizer was the first one available and most of the early vax were Pfizer. Hospitals also had better storage. But care homes got it too. Now some NHS hospitals are using AZ too.

The headline data is stellar for Pfizer, almost unbelievable, but is still very good for AZ. The AZ clinical programmes were more clunky and quirky and had more variability between them than Pfizer, which had clean, slick programmes and no quirks. AZ had very few older subjects in for long enough, so the hard data for older people (over 55) is virtually non-existent. Now, if you are happy to extrapolate earlier antibody data, that suggests older people will respond just as well to it, but regulators tend to require hard data, as they should. The decision to withhold AZ from older patients is therefore rational, but arguably a bit strict. AZ will have known that their trial programme did not investigate older people very well, so the controversy should not have been a surprise to them.

When the clinical programmes were being designed, we didn't know if any of these vax would even work, and it was hoped they might have an effectiveness of 60%. FDA said they would require 50%+ to approve. All the vax, including Sputnik but with the exception of the Chinese Sinovac product, comfortably exceed that benchmark, with several in the 90%+ range, which is almost unprecedented, so there really isn't a bad option.


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## chellie (Feb 25, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I'm already on it....just because of what I've read on this site. Because of that my wife and I are booked in for jabs on 12 March.....no way I would have known if I only watched the news. Which comes around to my original comments and how people don't know that they can do it.....without breaking the rules. I assumed I couldn't, but checked anyway because of this thread. You shouldn't have to depend on* word of mouth* to find things out.
		
Click to expand...

The news have been publicising the booking link though.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It will go to 3rd world nations and rightly so
		
Click to expand...

Swindon?


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## larmen (Feb 25, 2021)

The US changed the temperature requirements for the transport of Pfizer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What rules do you believe have been broken ?

You cannot book a vaccine unless you are eligible for one in the area you live - it’s been explained to you a number of times now

No one has “broken any rules”

You have been passed information on here which has helped you get a vaccine and it’s good thing yet you point fingers at the people who have helped 🤦‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, when making my booking I was required to enter my d.o.b so it would be easy to reject my request based upon age if that was required to prevent any age-related rule breaking. There may indeed be such a check, but it certainly allowed a late-1958 baby to book.


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## larmen (Feb 26, 2021)

They seem to be racing through now.
Based on my social media feed a friend (46) in East London has been done yesterday and couple of people I know around 50 in the West End area of London.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2021)

larmen said:



			They seem to be racing through now.
Based on my social media feed a friend (46) in East London has been done yesterday and couple of people I know around 50 in the West End area of London.
		
Click to expand...

I know someone 42 in West London getting a jab today.


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## Wabinez (Feb 26, 2021)

Getting my jab tomorrow....am 33.
no idea how I qualify, but NHS say I do so 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Getting my jab tomorrow....am 33.
no idea how I qualify, but NHS say I do so 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

If you get a legit invite, offer a legit acceptance and turn up. Don't ask too many questions. Nobody else's business how you got an invite.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

This could come under random irritation but I'll stick with covid thread as it's related

My daughter went back to nursery Monday. Yesterday she had a runny nose. Today they asked us to get her tested 

Now she has no symtoms but respect their ask. Runny nose in kids apparently a sign as they get it mild .. they said go local walk in at the library it's fine so we did

Well I did with her. My heart's broken. Try explaining to a 3 year old why I need to shove something in her nose. Crying the whole time 

3 kits wasted as she grabbed the end 

I had to pin her down in end which was horrible.

Will have results by 10

Just not nice


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## SaintHacker (Feb 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This could come under random irritation but I'll stick with covid thread as it's related

My daughter went back to nursery Monday. Yesterday she had a runny nose. Today they asked us to get her tested

Now she has no symtoms but respect their ask. Runny nose in kids apparently a sign as they get it mild .. they said go local walk in at the library it's fine so we did

Well I did with her. My heart's broken. Try explaining to a 3 year old why I need to shove something in her nose. Crying the whole time

3 kits wasted as she grabbed the end

I had to pin her down in end which was horrible.

Will have results by 10

Just not nice
		
Click to expand...

Not nice and I feel for you and your daughter, but being married to someone who works in a pre school I can see both sides of this. They've had to stay open the whole way through lockdown, and this time not just for children of key workers as they were during lockdown 1. Some of the parents have been so selfish/stupid you wouldn't believe...


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not nice and I feel for you and your daughter, but being married to someone who works in a pre school I can see both sides of this. They've had to stay open the whole way through lockdown, and this time not just for children of key workers as they were during lockdown 1. Some of the parents have been so selfish/stupid you wouldn't believe...
		
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Fully respect the schools decision just the actual test that was heart breaking


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## SaintHacker (Feb 26, 2021)

Its a shame they don't use these spit tests for young children


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Its a shame they don't use these spit tests for young children
		
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Least the test came back negative


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## SaintHacker (Feb 26, 2021)

Glad to hear it 👍


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## drdel (Feb 26, 2021)

There's several comments about Long Covid. I was wondering if a person with ĹC can be infectious?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

drdel said:



			There's several comments about Long Covid. I was wondering if a person with ĹC can be infectious?
		
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I believe no

If you get covid you will test positive for up to 90 days

But long covid is more fatigue etc trouble to breath 

More taking longer to recover from what it does rather than covid itself


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## jim8flog (Feb 26, 2021)

larmen said:



			The US changed the temperature requirements for the transport of Pfizer.
		
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Was that during the recent blizzards


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## jim8flog (Feb 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This could come under random irritation but I'll stick with covid thread as it's related

My daughter went back to nursery Monday. Yesterday she had a runny nose. Today they asked us to get her tested

Now she has no symtoms but respect their ask. Runny nose in kids apparently a sign as they get it mild .. they said go local walk in at the library it's fine so we did

Well I did with her. My heart's broken. Try explaining to a 3 year old why I need to shove something in her nose. Crying the whole time

3 kits wasted as she grabbed the end

I had to pin her down in end which was horrible.

Will have results by 10

Just not nice
		
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 I do not mean this to sound jokey but that sounds like the only way I could change my sons nappies when he was a about a year old.

You have my sympathies and understanding.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 26, 2021)

Question for @Ethan if he knows the answer to this one........

I work offshore so am never sure when I'll be at home and when I'll be away working. When it comes around to my turn on the list I'll go and get my first jab. There's no guarantee that I'll be at home 11/12 weeks later to go and get my second jab. If I'm away working when I'm due for my second jab do I just book it in once I know when I'll be home or would I have to start again


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I do not mean this to sound jokey but that sounds like the only way I could change my sons nappies when he was a about a year old.

You have my sympathies and understanding.
		
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 I'm lucky the girls don't mind a nappy change lol


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2021)

drdel said:



			There's several comments about Long Covid. I was wondering if a person with ĹC can be infectious?
		
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Very interesting Horizon on Coronavirus last night on BBC2 - and of course LC was discussed at some length.


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Question for @Ethan if he knows the answer to this one........

I work offshore so am never sure when I'll be at home and when I'll be away working. When it comes around to my turn on the list I'll go and get my first jab. There's no guarantee that I'll be at home 11/12 weeks later to go and get my second jab. If I'm away working when I'm due for my second jab do I just book it in once I know when I'll be home or would I have to start again
		
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I don't know. I would be inclined to take an appointment and if, closer to the time you can't make it, then try to change it. The prices interval between jabs isn't that critical. You will be decently covered from the first one for longer than 12 weeks.


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Very interesting Horizon on Coronavirus last night on BBC2 - and of course LC was discussed at some length.
		
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Long Covid does not result from a persisting infection you can't shake off, it is due to knock on effects of the original infection. The patient should not be infectious any longer than someone who doesn't get long Covid.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I don't know. I would be inclined to take an appointment and if, closer to the time you can't make it, then try to change it. The prices interval between jabs isn't that critical. You will be decently covered from the first one for longer than 12 weeks.
		
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Thanks Ethan. Once it's my turn I'll get the first jab done and see how it pans out for the second one.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56208674


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## GB72 (Feb 26, 2021)

Under 50s next on the list for jabs. At 48, my time is getting close. Cannot wait.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Under 50s next on the list for jabs. At 48, my time is getting close. Cannot wait.
		
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Well not quite, they on the over 60s right now

So then you got over 55

Over 50

Then the over 40s

They want all over 50 done by April 

However they been so quick so the over 40s could be soon


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Well not quite, they on the over 60s right now

So then you got over 55

Over 50

Then the over 40s

They want all over 50 done by April

However they been so quick so the over 40s could be soon
		
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Some places are moving faster and are inviting and jabbing the under 60s. Official Govt declarations tend to wait until most places are ready.


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## bobmac (Feb 26, 2021)

DONE


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## GB72 (Feb 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Well not quite, they on the over 60s right now

So then you got over 55

Over 50

Then the over 40s

They want all over 50 done by April

However they been so quick so the over 40s could be soon
		
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True but we only had a list of categories down to the over 50s until this morning. Could have gone a few routes after that including focusing on certain careers (not sure that there would have been many votes to vaccinate the lawyers first if that were the case), so nice to know that they are sticking with the age route.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Well not quite, they on the over 60s right now

So then you got over 55

Over 50

Then the over 40s

They want all over 50 done by April

However they been so quick so the over 40s could be soon
		
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Bear in mind that these groups have way more people in them so getting through each level may take a little more time. We are getting there though, that is the important thing.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bear in mind that these groups have way more people in them so getting through each level may take a little more time. We are getting there though, that is the important thing.
		
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You would think that's the case but seems not


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## drdel (Feb 26, 2021)

Hancock is briefing at 17:00


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 26, 2021)

@pauljames87 I'm amazed at that. You would have thought that older groups would naturally have fewer people in them but that thought doesn't take into account birth rates. The 60-64 group is really low. What happened late 1950's early 60's? Cold war frighten people?

Darn those under 65 at risk groups, pretty much 3 sections in one. We would be flying otherwise


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



@pauljames87 I'm amazed at that. You would have thought that older groups would naturally have fewer people in them but that thought doesn't take into account birth rates. The 60-64 group is really low. What happened late 1950's early 60's? Cold war frighten people?

Darn those under 65 at risk groups, pretty much 3 sections in one. We would be flying otherwise 

Click to expand...

Tbh I was shocked when I read this that's why it stood out to me and I remembered!!

But yes it's shocking however I think it's more how many have underlying conditions like diabetes


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## need_my_wedge (Feb 26, 2021)

over 55 is inching closer...


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			True but we only had a list of categories down to the over 50s until this morning. Could have gone a few routes after that including focusing on certain careers (not sure that there would have been many votes to vaccinate the lawyers first if that were the case), so nice to know that they are sticking with the age route.
		
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There is a decent argument for prioritising certain occupations, but most of the value of that would have been a month or two ago. Now we are on the verge of going into the under 50s, it is probably more effective just to continue rather than getting into the logistical complexities of identifying all teachers, and all the arguments that follow - classroom assistants, school office, canteen staff, caretakers ....?


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## banjofred (Feb 26, 2021)

I booked for the jab yesterday thanks to this site....but we still had to wait until 12 March. I'll take it anyway. That's about as soon as I was hoping anyway.....

I'd go outside for my second walk (hitting the treadmill instead)....but jeez....people walking all over the place. If nothing else, this last year has forced a whole lot of people to get outside for their exercise. There are places I avoid in the afternoons just because so many people are out. I've been pretty impressed with how many are out there in crap weather as well. I've been doing it all my life so I'm used to it, but I'm thrilled in a way that more have gotten out of the house.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is a decent argument for prioritising certain occupations, but most of the value of that would have been a month or two ago. Now we are on the verge of going into the under 50s, it is probably more effective just to continue rather than getting into the logistical complexities of identifying all teachers, and all the arguments that follow - classroom assistants, school office, canteen staff, caretakers ....?
		
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My wife's school had to put forward her team to be done because of working close with disabled kids 

But that prob comes under front line social care


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## larmen (Feb 26, 2021)

While I would prefer that they vaccinate some groups earlier I think that is past useful at some point, and doing it by age is just the easiest way to do it. You are getting a good amount of teachers, bus drivers, check out personal, ... in those age groups as well, and there is no fight about group A being more important than group B, ... .
Saying that, do the hair dressers. They are seeing ALL of us in a few weeks time ;-)


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife's school had to put forward her team to be done because of working close with disabled kids

But that prob comes under front line social care
		
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Possibly, but an illustration that there are lots of variations and well intentioned rules are often hard to implement. If vaccination was moving slower, I think they might have prioritised more, but now it may actually slow things down to put detailed operational criteria in place, and you run a greater risk of getting the numbers wrong and wasting time. The background risk in the population has fallen a fair bit and any teachers etc over 50 will be picked up by the current process in the next few weeks.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 26, 2021)

banjofred said:



			I booked for the jab yesterday thanks to this site....but we still had to wait until 12 March. I'll take it anyway. That's about as soon as I was hoping anyway.....

I'd go outside for my second walk (hitting the treadmill instead)....but jeez....people walking all over the place. If nothing else, this last year has forced a whole lot of people to get outside for their exercise. There are places I avoid in the afternoons just because so many people are out. I've been pretty impressed with how many are out there in crap weather as well. I've been doing it all my life so I'm used to it, *but I'm thrilled in a way that more have gotten out of the house*.
		
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I felt the same last lockdown. Families out walking the footpaths around the village. I hoped it would stick but it didn't. Hopefully this time...


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Possibly, but an illustration that there are lots of variations and well intentioned rules are often hard to implement. If vaccination was moving slower, I think they might have prioritised more, but now it may actually slow things down to put detailed operational criteria in place, and you run a greater risk of getting the numbers wrong and wasting time. The background risk in the population has fallen a fair bit and any teachers etc over 50 will be picked up by the current process in the next few weeks.
		
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Hard as it is with my family (my sister is asthmatic, 31 and a school worker) she is scared but being her big brother who says like he sees it she doesn't like when I tell her I agree with the way it's being done lol


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## AmandaJR (Feb 26, 2021)

Coronavirus has certainly made me look for new hobbies - doubt any will stick once lockdown eases and golf/gyms open but my latest - first paint by numbers for 40+ years! Could/should have put more coats on and got a bit "freelance" as it looked too blocky but certainly whiled away many hours!


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## GB72 (Feb 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Coronavirus has certainly made me look for new hobbies - doubt any will stick once lockdown eases and golf/gyms open but my latest - first paint by numbers for 40+ years! Could/should have put more coats on and got a bit "freelance" as it looked too blocky but certainly whiled away many hours!

View attachment 35301

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My wife did a couple of paint by numbers. Did a star wars stormtrooper one that now proudly hangs on the wall of my mancave.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365267169861369856


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

Just back from my Covid vacc. Very positive experience at Swallowfield near Reading/Wokingham, from the guys doing the car park to the receptionists, vaccinators, in and out quickly, smoothy and reassuringly. Understated efficiency throughout. On arrival, saw a notice posted at the door saying 'Today the Pfizer vaccine will be offered', like a Daily Specials board for a pub. 

No adverse effects so far, although when I arrived back, I reached for my work Windows computer rather than my Mac first. Mmm.


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## Slime (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Just back from my Covid vacc. Very positive experience at Swallowfield near Reading/Wokingham, from the guys doing the car park to the receptionists, vaccinators, in and out quickly, smoothy and reassuringly. Understated efficiency throughout. On arrival, saw a notice posted at the door saying 'Today the Pfizer vaccine will be offered', like a Daily Specials board for a pub.

No adverse effects so far, although* when I arrived back, I reached for my work Windows computer rather than my Mac first. *Mmm.
		
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In my eyes, that's a very positive side effect!


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## D-S (Feb 26, 2021)

Another good set of numbers today, cases, deaths, patients in hospital all well down and vaccines well up!!


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 26, 2021)

Lol. Van-Tam was prepared today for the question from the BBC, and very eloquently is ripping Hugh a new one with his answer.


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## Old Skier (Feb 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Lol. Van Tam was prepared today for the question from the BBC, and very eloquently is ripping Hugh a new one with his answer.
		
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He was primed and ready. Great answer with strong evidence.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			He was primed and ready. Great answer with strong evidence.
		
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Very much so. I don't think he would've gone into so much detail unless he was utterly tired of this question from smug journalists trying to be smart.


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## Beedee (Feb 26, 2021)

Just back from getting Pfizered at Cheltenham fire station.  Whole thing was a well oiled machine.

I wonder if my DNA changes now, do I get to choose the superpower I'll develop?  Quite fancy turning into Wolverine.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 26, 2021)

I've just been pfizered too, forgot to ask if I can have a beer tonight 🤔.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365331801909186564


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## Kellfire (Feb 26, 2021)

Beedee said:



			Just back from getting Pfizered at Cheltenham fire station.  Whole thing was a well oiled machine.

I wonder if my DNA changes now, do I get to choose the superpower I'll develop?  Quite fancy turning into Wolverine.
		
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You want weird bony claws to stick out of your hands? Painful every time.


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## Beedee (Feb 26, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You want weird bony claws to stick out of your hands? Painful every time.
		
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His superpower is healing himself.  The claws were what was done to him.

The bit I'm after is unlimited booze and cigars with no ill effects.  And looking like Hugh Jackman.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Very much so. I don't think he would've gone into so much detail unless he was utterly tired of this question from smug journalists trying to be smart.
		
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Of all the scientists I like him the best. I get the feeling he doesn't suffer fools gladly at all, and would probably be quite useful if things turned a bit 'tasty'


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Lol. Van-Tam was prepared today for the question from the BBC, and very eloquently is ripping Hugh a new one with his answer.
		
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What was the question?

Edit: Just saw it on BBC news site. It isn't a terrible question, and I have heard a lot worse. The answer I would give, and may have said something like this above is that given the pace of progress currently, it would just slow things down to do this now. I haven't agreed with the JCVI's policy on some other aspects, which I think have favoured simplicity over nuanced prioritisation, but from where we are now,  just vaccinate as many as we can as fast as we can. Too much structure just slows that down.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			What was the question?
		
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It was regarding teachers and why they didn’t get the jab if they prioritised education etc etc. Van-Tam had his numbers lined up comparing death rates with cab drivers, hospitality staff etc etc so by the end of it, how I interpreted it anyway, it was in no way unclear that he was sick and tired of the question as the goal was to save lifes.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Possibly, but an illustration that there are lots of variations and well intentioned rules are often hard to implement. If vaccination was moving slower, I think they might have prioritised more, but now it may actually slow things down to put detailed operational criteria in place, and you run a greater risk of getting the numbers wrong and wasting time. The background risk in the population has fallen a fair bit and any teachers etc over 50 will be picked up by the current process in the next few weeks.
		
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I just heard on tv the argument for prioritised groups and I was leaning towards the need for it. However, having read the points here raised, I can see that we are doing it right at the moment.
By the time things have been rearranged etc, we would slow down a very fast and efficient enterprise which is succeeding beyond expectations.
BBC reports down to the 40s in some ares now.😳


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## Kellfire (Feb 26, 2021)

Beedee said:



			His superpower is healing himself.  The claws were what was done to him.

The bit I'm after is unlimited booze and cigars with no ill effects.  And looking like Hugh Jackman.
		
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 No he always had bone claws as part of his powers. They only became metallic after he had adamantium fused to his skeleton; a procedure he only survived because of his healing ability.


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			It was regarding teachers and why they didn’t get the jab if they prioritised education etc etc. Van-Tam had his numbers lined up comparing death rates with cab drivers, hospitality staff etc etc so by the end of it, how I interpreted it anyway, it was in no way unclear that he was sick and tired of the question as the goal was to save lifes.
		
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Well, I like Van Tam, but he must expect journos to use Q&A sessions to ask questions, and this is not an unreasonable one, even if it may have missed its moment. A proper answer to the question of occupational risk is very complicated and needs to take account of quite a few bits of data.


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## Slime (Feb 26, 2021)

1st jab tomorrow, 2nd jab booked in.
Not as local as I'd hoped, but hey, it could save my life and others too.
What's not to want?


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I've just been pfizered too, forgot to ask if I can have a beer tonight 🤔.
		
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Sure you can have a beer. Or two. Just keep to current social distancing rules for the time being.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, I like Van Tam, but he must expect journos to use Q&A sessions to ask questions, and this is not an unreasonable one, even if it may have missed its moment. A proper answer to the question of occupational risk is very complicated and needs to take account of quite a few bits of data.
		
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Yeah, I mean it was just my interpretation of his answer really. It just seemed like he had a few to many exact numbers in his answer for it not to be prepared, and that he wanted to put him in his place. 

I may well have read too much into it!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, I like Van Tam, but he must expect journos to use Q&A sessions to ask questions, and this is not an unreasonable one, even if it may have missed its moment. A proper answer to the question of occupational risk is very complicated and needs to take account of quite a few bits of data.
		
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They were definitely well prepared for it, especially seeing as it was the first time it’s been asked since it was announced officially today, so a fair question for me.

Van Tam was, imo, slightly disingenious in that he only showed the infection rates comparing male teacher death against other professions over a 10 month period, schools were closed to the majority of pupils for 3 months during this period and we saw the damage done when they fully reopened.

The ONS statistics that came out last Monday showed Primary School teachers at a higher risk than nurses, in fact they were 4th out of 25 professions.


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			They were definitely well prepared for it, especially seeing as it was the first time it’s been asked since it was announced officially today, so a fair question for me.

Van Tam was, imo, slightly disingenious in that he only showed the infection rates comparing male teacher death against other professions over a 10 month period, schools were closed to the majority of pupils for 3 months during this period and we saw the damage done when they fully reopened.

The ONS statistics that came out last Monday showed Primary School teachers at a higher risk than nurses, in fact they were 4th out of 25 professions.
		
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That is what I mean, you have to compare demographics, exposure and various outcomes. Preventing teacher death might not be the only objective of teacher vacc. They could be an important source of transmission. It s a bit like the planes are safer than cars debate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 26, 2021)

I haven't checked the numbers for our postcode for quite some time - in fact since we went into lockdown.  Just looked.  4 +ves in 7 days to 21/02 and rolling rate of 47/100k - as I had hoped but didn't know - a massive drop.


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## BTatHome (Feb 26, 2021)

Comparing transmission to hospitality workers is a little strange, as they haven't been told to continue working throughout each lockdown, nor have the been prioritized to be back to full occupation (effective the same as pre Covid).

Whilst I see it being easiest to continue with the age prioritized ratings, surely for the amount of staff in schools it wouldn't actually be that difficult to get them done very quickly

Anyway, it appears they have made their decisions and will stand by them

Btw. I'm pretty sure they get the questions in advance of the briefing, so hardly surprising that they can seem to know everything (you can't really believe that Boris, Hancock and Williamson can think on their feet?)


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Just back from my Covid vacc. Very positive experience at Swallowfield near Reading/Wokingham, from the guys doing the car park to the receptionists, vaccinators, in and out quickly, smoothy and reassuringly. Understated efficiency throughout. On arrival, saw a notice posted at the door saying 'Today the Pfizer vaccine will be offered', like a Daily Specials board for a pub.

No adverse effects so far, although when I arrived back, I reached for my work Windows computer rather than my Mac first. Mmm.
		
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Gonads swelling yet 🙂


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Gonads swelling yet 🙂
		
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No more than usual.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No more than usual.
		
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Not good then.


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## bobmac (Feb 27, 2021)

After having the jab yesterday I was expecting some side affects this morning.
I checked in the mirror, one nose, two ears, two eyes, one mouth, everything normal, so nothing to report.


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## Imurg (Feb 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			After having the jab yesterday I was expecting some side affects this morning.
I checked in the mirror, one nose, two ears, two eyes, one mouth, everything normal, so nothing to report.  

Click to expand...

You sure..?


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			After having the jab yesterday I was expecting some side affects this morning.
I checked in the mirror, one nose, two ears, two eyes, one mouth, everything normal, so nothing to report.  

Click to expand...

Glad went well


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## Ethan (Feb 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			After having the jab yesterday I was expecting some side affects this morning.
I checked in the mirror, one nose, two ears, two eyes, one mouth, everything normal, so nothing to report.  

Click to expand...

Likewise, no side effects at all.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Likewise, no side effects at all.
		
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Well, perhaps because you got the 'first class' option ...


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## Ethan (Feb 27, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, perhaps because you got the 'first class' option ...
		
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Perhaps, but only as a result of random chance.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Perhaps, but only as a result of random chance.
		
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I think the chance has been pre selected so half the population are defo safe 🤔🤣

The others will be bill gates puppets


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Likewise, no side effects at all.
		
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Partner and I  had the AZ not any reactions at all.


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## MegaSteve (Feb 27, 2021)

drdel said:



			Partner and I  had the AZ not any reactions at all.
		
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We also got AZ'd no real side effects noted for myself... 
But, herself had a reaction requiring a conversation with our GP...
He offered a couple of suggestions as to why and asked to be kept informed of any further/worsening of symptoms...
After a further 48hrs the 'reaction' had dissipated...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2021)

Hearing and seeing a lot of folks organising a load of stuff on the back of 29tth March, 12th April, 17th May and 21st June dates.  I hope all understand that the dates are very provisional and conditional, and that if one moves then those following have to move the same amount to maintain the 5 weeks separation that much has been made of.  

And I hope that those who would have to move the dates have the cojones to do so in the face of what would inevitably be huge resistance from within and without.

Meanwhile I become aware that behaviours of some groups and individuals in the context of the brilliant vax role out are starting to push and overstep the boundaries.  And as is being reported from some parts of the country infection rates can rise from their current reducing levels.  Concerns...


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hearing and seeing a lot of folks organising a load of stuff on the back of 29tth March, 12th April, 17th May and 21st June dates.  I hope all understand that the dates are very provisional and conditional, and that if one moves then those following have to move the same amount to maintain the 5 weeks separation that much has been made of.  

And I hope that those who would have to move the dates have the cojones to do so in the face of what would inevitably be huge resistance from within and without.

Meanwhile I become aware that behaviours of some groups and individuals in the context of the brilliant vax role out are starting to push and overstep the boundaries.  And as is being reported from some parts of the country infection rates can rise from their current reducing levels.  Concerns...
		
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My only added is the 29th isn't conditional 

8th march is stage 1 as is 29th march 

That's going ahead 

With 5 weeks between stages 

If anything happens on 8th it will be 12th April pushed back not 29th as that's stage 1b


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			It was regarding teachers and why they didn’t get the jab if they prioritised education etc etc. Van-Tam had his numbers lined up comparing death rates with cab drivers, hospitality staff etc etc so by the end of it, how I interpreted it anyway, it was in no way unclear that he was sick and tired of the question as the goal was to save lifes.
		
Click to expand...

My reading of VT is that he will happily take any and every opportunity to hammer home the message...and all of the messages can bear regular repeating.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My only added is the 29th isn't conditional

8th march is stage 1 as is 29th march

That's going ahead

With 5 weeks between stages

If anything happens on 8th it will be 12th April pushed back not 29th as that's stage 1b
		
Click to expand...

Ok - ty for the clarification as I hadn’t fully grasped that.  But when I hear of sold out Reading and Leeds festivals and matches at Wembley never mind all the appointments and holidays being booked.  It’s going to be tough moving the dates.  Praying that it doesn’t come to that...it’s up to each and every one of us to know we are doing the right thing and to know when what we plan to do is not.  And change our plan.


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ok - ty for the clarification as I hadn’t fully grasped that.  But when I hear of sold out Reading and Leeds festivals and matches at Wembley never mind all the appointments and holidays being booked.  It’s going to be tough moved the dates.  Praying that it doesn’t come to that...it’s up to each and every one of us to know we are doing the right thing and to know when what we plan to do is not.  And change our plan.
		
Click to expand...

Fully agree with the other points , but I think the festival's are gambling like airlines etc to keep themsleves in buisness

Sell tickets now and have to offer refund down line if cancelled 

Get some cash flow


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Fully agree with the other points , but I think the festival's are gambling like airlines etc to keep themsleves in buisness

Sell tickets now and have to offer refund down line if cancelled

Get some cash flow
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.  But tbh my lad looks somewhat pessimistically at summer prospects thinks autumn better bet - of course he’d love them to go ahead as its his sector and he did a late night DJ session at Leeds 2yrs ago. And there will be very many businesses local to Leeds and Reading and UK-wide setting their plans and cash flow forecasts on the assumption that they will go ahead with the tens of thousands of folk that will be attending them.  Would be quite a blow if they were cancelled and had to be moved. Here’s hoping though.


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## IanM (Feb 27, 2021)

Lockdown boredom sufficiently serious now for me to have spent the morning cleaning my wife's car


----------



## Billysboots (Feb 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lockdown boredom sufficiently serious now for me to have spent the morning cleaning my wife's car

Click to expand...

I’ve been avoiding cleaning my wife’s car for months (as has she), for fear of what I might catch. I had to ask her the other day what colour it was.


----------



## backwoodsman (Feb 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lockdown boredom sufficiently serious now for me to have spent the morning cleaning my wife's car

Click to expand...

Ditto, its so bad that I just cleaned my own car. Had it 3.5 years and its the first time I've done it.(And possibly only the second time I've done any car in the past 10 years). At least I can be fairly sure that lockdown will have ended before I do it again.


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## banjofred (Feb 27, 2021)

I always try to buy cars that don't show dirt very well. No white or black cars. Nothing like a good boring grey......


----------



## SatchFan (Feb 27, 2021)

Well, I've responded to Her Majesty. Booked yesterday, jabbed today. Now, where's my knighthood?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 27, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365693938003247109

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365694521699430401


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## bobmac (Feb 27, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			Well, I've responded to Her Majesty. Booked yesterday, jabbed today. Now, where's my knighthood?
		
Click to expand...

No knighthood, just a sticker.
Did you get a sticker?
I hope you got a sticker.
I got a sticker.
Got to love stickers


----------



## banjofred (Feb 27, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			Well, I've responded to Her Majesty. Booked yesterday, jabbed today. Now, where's my knighthood?
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes I think that's all you need....


----------



## D-S (Feb 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365693938003247109

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365694521699430401

Click to expand...

Cracking set of numbers and good to see any issues with possible ‘plateauing’ of cases seem to have been false. Bodes well for the road map being on track especially as vacc numbers seem to be moving in the right direction again with well over half a million doses administered yesterday .


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Feb 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No knighthood, just a sticker.
Did you get a sticker?
I hope you got a sticker.
I got a sticker.
Got to love stickers  

Click to expand...

I was hoping for a lolly ☹. Not sure I'm as keen to go now I only get a sticker.


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## chellie (Feb 27, 2021)

I didn't get a sticker when I had mine done weeks ago


----------



## larmen (Feb 27, 2021)

Beautiful day out there. Went for a walk through bushy park, but making it clear to the little one we don’t stop at the playground. Going past it, it was rammed full with people. We had a 2 hour tantrum walk back why we wouldn’t go when all the others can play.

R is going to go up next week the weather isn’t helping us.


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## D-S (Feb 27, 2021)

[R is going to go up next week the weather isn’t helping us.[/QUOTE]

So the R number is going to increase due to the transmission outside?


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## road2ruin (Feb 27, 2021)

larmen said:



			R is going to go up next week the weather isn’t helping us.
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t that exactly what people were claiming last year with VE Day, BLM Marches and Beaches etc? There was never an uptick there and we were looking at far more people. Can’t see there be any difference in the R number next week. It’ll go up a bit after March 8th with the schools but that’s it.


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## SatchFan (Feb 27, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No knighthood, just a sticker.
Did you get a sticker?
I hope you got a sticker.
I got a sticker.
Got to love stickers  

Click to expand...

Currently wearing it with pride, Bob.


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## SatchFan (Feb 27, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Sometimes I think that's all you need....
		
Click to expand...

To get a flight upgrade


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## backwoodsman (Feb 27, 2021)

I got a sticker. *And*, I was told I was brave. 
You lot presumably cried.


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## Ethan (Feb 27, 2021)

You should also get a card with the brand of vaccine and lot number, and if you register for the NHS app (not the track and trace one, the regular one), you will be able to see your vax on your health record.


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## Wabinez (Feb 27, 2021)

I saw the stickers on the desk when I had my jab today. I didn’t get a sticker though 

Still, I’ll take the protection offered after 3 weeks 😂


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## D-S (Feb 27, 2021)

larmen said:



			Beautiful day out there. Went for a walk through bushy park, but making it clear to the little one we don’t stop at the playground. Going past it, it was rammed full with people. We had a 2 hour tantrum walk back why we wouldn’t go when all the others can play.

R is going to go up next week the weather isn’t helping us.
		
Click to expand...

Relevant tweet from a GP just now:-

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365706370796896258


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			Relevant tweet from a GP just now:-

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365706370796896258

Click to expand...

Yeah saw someone complaining on FB about families out enjoying the sun

Erm why are you out then? And their in their families they live together 

Ffs people


----------



## fenwayrich (Feb 27, 2021)

I saw a family of about 16 young men having a game of football on the park today. And another family of lads sitting down drinking out of cans and shouting at each other.

I assume they were families......


----------



## Crazyface (Feb 27, 2021)

I hope this will pan out well. The roads have been very busy today and the Nature reserves and parks FAR TOO BUSY where I've been driving (working).


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## D-S (Feb 27, 2021)

I hope all those complaining about busy playgrounds and parks outside won’t dream of taking the foolhardy risk of playing golf in 4 weeks time (they must be amazed that there are any of our Caledonian cousins left on this forum due to their reckless behaviour on the links in the past months).


----------



## Imurg (Feb 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			I hope all those complaining about busy playgrounds and parks outside won’t dream of taking the foolhardy risk of playing golf in 4 weeks time (they must be amazed that there are any of our Caledonian cousins left on this forum due to their reckless behaviour on the links in the past months).
		
Click to expand...

There's being outside enjoying the weather and there's being outside breaking the rules no matter how small the increased risk of infection.
Lockdown rules still apply
Stay at home unless you're exercising  - sitting in a group drinking beer isn't exercising or staying at home
No mixing with more than 1 person outside...the game of football doesn't quite reach that one does it
I know its only minor and some will say it doesn't matter but it does to those of us who are following the rules in the hope that we can kick this virus into touch as soon as possible.
Hopefully, come the end of March,  the first step towards that will be achieved and we will be allowed to play golf - and not breaking rules because we think they don't apply to us.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You should also get a card with the brand of vaccine and lot number, and if you register for the NHS app (not the track and trace one, the regular one), you will be able to see your vax on your health record.
		
Click to expand...

@Ethan were to, I cant find it.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2021)

Old Skier said:



@Ethan were to, I cant find it.
		
Click to expand...

I did all the stuff but my medical records haven't been made available by my gp


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## D-S (Feb 27, 2021)

Some humble pie on the menu in France and Germany


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365776579851354114


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2021)

Not defending the actions of those you see out. But people don't seem to realise that they most likely haven't been sticking to the rules throughout lockdown, just people haven't noticed because it's been behind closed doors. So shouldn't have bad affect on numbers or anything like that. Least it's in the outside now

Still not good and people should stick to the rules until they change


----------



## D-S (Feb 27, 2021)

More humble pie.....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365794135983214592


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## Ethan (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			More humble pie.....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365794135983214592

Click to expand...

Govt scientists said no such thing. They reported the observations of the roll out. There are differences between the people who got Pfizer and those who got AZ. Pfizer was generally given to older people and NHS workers, AZ to younger people. AZ did not start as soon as Pfizer, so the time exposure is different. A head to head comparison is not yet possible.

We have seen that worldwide the clinical trial data for Pfizer has been shown in early vaccination studies, for example in Israel. It beggars belief that it works less well in the UK. Equally, the clinical trial data for AZ is good, but not as good. The message here should be that vaccination is making a huge impact, but comparisons between the two in some sort of flag waving contest is premature.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2021)

larmen said:



			Beautiful day out there. Went for a walk through bushy park, but making it clear to the little one we don’t stop at the playground. Going past it, it was rammed full with people. We had a 2 hour tantrum walk back why we wouldn’t go when all the others can play.

R is going to go up next week the weather isn’t helping us.
		
Click to expand...

Likewise - our local adventure playground was rammed.  Adults looked to be making effort to maintain SD though there were some groups - children were being children having a great time


----------



## D-S (Feb 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Govt scientists said no such thing. They reported the observations of the roll out. There are differences between the people who got Pfizer and those who got AZ. Pfizer was generally given to older people and NHS workers, AZ to younger people. AZ did not start as soon as Pfizer, so the time exposure is different. A head to head comparison is not yet possible.

We have seen that worldwide the clinical trial data for Pfizer has been shown in early vaccination studies, for example in Israel. It beggars belief that it works less well in the UK. Equally, the clinical trial data for AZ is good, but not as good. The message here should be that vaccination is making a huge impact, but comparisons between the two in some sort of flag waving contest is premature.
		
Click to expand...

i agree we shouldn’t be flag waving and comparisons between two effective solutions to a global catastrophe are premat but the attitude shown by some in Europe has slowed the vaccine roll out (perhaps founded by nationalistic jealousy) and, as we all know, delaying the immunistation programme is harmful for everyone.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			i agree we shouldn’t be flag waving and comparisons between two effective solutions to a global catastrophe are premat but the attitude shown by some in Europe has slowed the vaccine roll out (perhaps founded by nationalistic jealousy) and, as we all know, delaying the immunistation programme is harmful for everyone.
		
Click to expand...

I have heard this nationalistic argument made a lot. It goes two ways, you know. The UK approved AZ despite some questionable data. As someone who has dealt with EMA and FDA, I was not in the slightest bit surprised they were more reticent. The simple fact is that the regulators approve based on clinical data, not indirect biomarker data (such as antibodies). AZ simply doesn't have that clinical data for people over 55. We also know that vaccine responses can be weaker in older people, so that clinical data is needed. It may come with some data from a US study. Note that the early AZ studies were really designed and set up by Oxford and are a bit of a mess. The new US study is run by AZ and will be much better. 

The EMA ended up giving AZ a broad approval, but a number of countries chose to allocate AZ to younger patients only. That is actually quite a rational decision. I don't believe for a moment it is some sort of nationalistic slur on the UK. Note also that some people in the UK declined the Pfizer vaccine, wanting the British one (really British-Swedish) one instead. 

Funny enough, the US hasn't approved it at all for anyone for much the same reasons as EMA hesitancy, but I don't hear people getting on their case.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			More humble pie.....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365794135983214592

Click to expand...

Via @dailymail = rubbish


----------



## BTatHome (Feb 28, 2021)

Won't help these nationalistic views when every time the AZ vaccine is mentioned by Boris he calls it the UK vaccine.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I have heard this nationalistic argument made a lot. It goes two ways, you know. The UK approved AZ despite some questionable data. As someone who has dealt with EMA and FDA, I was not in the slightest bit surprised they were more reticent. The simple fact is that the regulators approve based on clinical data, not indirect biomarker data (such as antibodies). AZ simply doesn't have that clinical data for people over 55. We also know that vaccine responses can be weaker in older people, so that clinical data is needed. It may come with some data from a US study. Note that the early AZ studies were really designed and set up by Oxford and are a bit of a mess. The new US study is run by AZ and will be much better. 

The EMA ended up giving AZ a broad approval, but a number of countries chose to allocate AZ to younger patients only. That is actually quite a rational decision. I don't believe for a moment it is some sort of nationalistic slur on the UK. Note also that some people in the UK declined the Pfizer vaccine, wanting the British one (really British-Swedish) one instead. 

Funny enough, the US hasn't approved it at all for anyone for much the same reasons as EMA hesitancy, but I don't hear people getting on their case.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't "beat" them in a world war 🙄


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## drdel (Feb 28, 2021)

The key goal of this thread was supposed to be how it is affecting you.

IMO we mostly seem to be bickering about statistics/policy? I'm just very pleased we are making huge progress with access to at least two very effective vaccines. 

Perhaps a "Covid data" thread should be started by those interested.


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## GB72 (Feb 28, 2021)

drdel said:



			The key goal of this thread was supposed to be how it is affecting you.

IMO we mostly seem to be bickering about statistics/policy? I'm just very pleased we are making huge progress with access to at least two very effective vaccines.

Perhaps a "Covid data" thread should be started by those interested.
		
Click to expand...

I can agree with that. As for me, I feel much better at the moment. In 4 short weeks I will have been jabbed or be close to it and can meet my friends in the garden again. All reasons to be positive.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Via @dailymail = rubbish
		
Click to expand...

Pathetic!


----------



## larmen (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			More humble pie.....

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365794135983214592

Click to expand...

Is this after the 2nd jab is supposed to be given a week ago? Maybe someone should tell Boris to rtfm.


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Pathetic!
		
Click to expand...

What the daily mail? I agree


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What the daily mail? I agree
		
Click to expand...

No , your childish attempts to be "edgy".

Try reading the report and forget the relevance of which newspaper has reported it.

After all the sacred BBC also covered this.


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			No , your childish attempts to be "edgy".

Try reading the report and forget the relevance of which newspaper has reported it.

After all the sacred BBC also covered this.
		
Click to expand...

'edgy' or correctly pointing out the daily mail is a waste of good toilet paper?


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Covid jabs "officially" going to over 60s from tomorrow 

Announced today


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			No , your childish attempts to be "edgy".

Try reading the report and forget the relevance of which newspaper has reported it.

After all the sacred BBC also covered this.
		
Click to expand...

Not a newspaper reader but it’s strange that so many people claim not to read or knock what has been reported to be the largest selling paper in the UK.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not a newspaper reader but it’s strange that so many people claim not to read or knock what has been reported to be the largest selling paper in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

The daily racist (with a history of supporting the Nazi party) is a national disgrace of a paper

Always has been.


Also it's 4th

Metro (owned by the daily hail)
The guardian
The times 
Then daily rubbish


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Feb 28, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I can agree with that. As for me, I feel much better at the moment. In 4 short weeks I will have been jabbed or be close to it and can meet my friends in the garden again. All reasons to be positive.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure you know, but you are not affected by the vaccine for about 3 weeks after receiving it.
So meeting your friends might be 4 weeks plus 3 weeks?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			'edgy' or correctly pointing out the daily mail is a waste of good toilet paper?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it must be, as nothing is true.

After all I read in it that West Ham had won a game but that can't be  right because it was in the Daily Mail.

Just read the report and focus on the facts!


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Yes it must be, as nothing is true.

After all I read in it that West Ham had won a game but that can't be  right because it was interesting Daily Mail.

Just read the report and focus on the facts!
		
Click to expand...

But the "facts" weren't correct as Ethan said?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2021)

For those hoping to holiday in Spain. Several of the autonomous regions, e.g. Valencia, intend to open their borders to holiday makers on the 17th May. This will almost certainly be replicated through all of the regions as policing it would be extremely difficult, barring a massive spike.

Malaga is expecting to open its municipal borders(town limits) this week to travel throughout Andalucia. Most of Andalucia has already opened its municipal borders last week as numbers have dropped below 500/100,000.

Bare in mind, if you are coming to Spain that you follow the masks rules/table occupancy rules, whatever they may be at that time. I watched two police officers having a field day last year with holiday makers coming out of one of the hotels along the Playa. Everyone that came out of the hotel without a mask got a €60 fine - its €100 now.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But the "facts" weren't correct as Ethan said?
		
Click to expand...

And Ethan may be misinterpreting, I don't know but the report wasn't prepared or commissioned by the Daily Mail. 

It was an independent report from an academic institution. 

And whilst we are on facts the Press Gazette, on 23 February, confirmed that the Mail continues to have the highest circulation in this country.


----------



## Slime (Feb 28, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			It's made me very aware that not everyone follows rules laid down by government.
It's made me very annoyed that some people have benefited from government hand outs whilst, yet again, others will get sod all.
It's making me very angry that,* whilst I've followed the rules, barring one thing,* others haven't and that may, by Christ it better hadn't, affect me being able to start to play the game I enjoy.
*It's made me very aware that BJ and all the elite running the country haven't got a clue what they are doing,* and this saddens me.
		
Click to expand...

Have a word with yourself ........................................ or change your name to Captain Hindsight.


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			And Ethan may be misinterpreting, I don't know but the report wasn't prepared or commissioned by the Daily Mail. 

It was an independent report from an academic institution. 

And whilst we are on facts the Press Gazette, on 23 February, confirmed that the Mail continues to have the highest circulation in this country.
		
Click to expand...

Would that not be generational because older people buy papers and they prefer the mail? Because you would be hard to find many people under 40 who buy papers.

So you need to take online side of things into account

Like online subscription


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Would that not be generational because older people buy papers and they prefer the mail? Because you would be hard to find many people under 40 who buy papers.

So you need to take online side of things into account

Like online subscription
		
Click to expand...

Judging by the figures I don't think many people, regardless of age, buy print editions. 

I am 71 and have not bought a daily newspaper for 11 years.

The Press Gazette figures include online circulation and still the Mail is way in front.


----------



## Ethan (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But the "facts" weren't correct as Ethan said?
		
Click to expand...

The facts were correct in bald terms, but misinterpreted, deliberately or not according to preference, because they were relating to significantly different populations.


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The facts were correct in bald terms, but misinterpreted, deliberately or not according to preference, because they were relating to significantly different populations.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds exactly the mail's MO


----------



## GB72 (Feb 28, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I'm sure you know, but you are not affected by the vaccine for about 3 weeks after receiving it.
So meeting your friends might be 4 weeks plus 3 weeks?
		
Click to expand...

No I will meet my friends if/when we are allowed on 29th March


----------



## backwoodsman (Feb 28, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I'm sure you know, but you are not affected by the vaccine for about 3 weeks after receiving it.
So meeting your friends might be 4 weeks plus 3 weeks?
		
Click to expand...

But, in 4 weeks it's 29 March so he can meet friends anyway (provided things go as planned).

Oops - beaten to it.


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Judging by the figures I don't think many people, regardless of age, buy print editions. 

I am 71 and have not bought a daily newspaper for 11 years.

The Press Gazette figures include online circulation and still the Mail is way in front.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/most-popular-newspapers-uk-abc-monthly-circulation-figures/

Print editions..if you read below the table it explains how it isn't the highest due to the sun. Times and telegraph keeping their figures private


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/most-popular-newspapers-uk-abc-monthly-circulation-figures/

Print editions..if you read below the table it explains how it isn't the highest due to the sun. Times and telegraph keeping their figures private
		
Click to expand...

Of those only The Sun has ever got close to challenging the DM.

Generally accepted now that The Sun has passed its heyday.


----------



## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The daily racist (with a history of supporting the Nazi party) is a national disgrace of a paper

Always has been.


Also it's 4th

Metro (owned by the daily hail)
The guardian
The times
Then daily rubbish
		
Click to expand...

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley


----------



## backwoodsman (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/most-popular-newspapers-uk-abc-monthly-circulation-figures/

Print editions..if you read below the table it explains how it isn't the highest due to the sun. Times and* telegraph keeping their figures private  *

Click to expand...

Not surprising they want to keep the numbers under their hat - they've been haemorrhaging readers for ages.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/dec/06/dailymail-oswald-mosley

Click to expand...





Enough reasons not to read it's bile.


----------



## Kellfire (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 35348


Enough reasons not to read it's bile.
		
Click to expand...

There’s a strong correlation between being a Daily Mail reader and being a horrible person in my experience. It’s a disgusting echo chamber for hate and division.


----------



## bobmac (Feb 28, 2021)

And absolutely nothing to do with Covid-19


----------



## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			There’s a strong correlation between being a Daily Mail reader and being a horrible person in my experience. It’s a disgusting echo chamber for hate and division.
		
Click to expand...

My grandad reads the mail.. I have to avoid certain subjects with him. He litterally is pumped full of rubbish they serve up


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And absolutely nothing to do with Covid-19
		
Click to expand...

Well if you read the mail your more likely to suffer affects of covid 19 as the average mail reader is in the over 60s group?


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## Kellfire (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My grandad reads the mail.. I have to avoid certain subjects with him. He litterally is pumped full of rubbish they serve up
		
Click to expand...

We’ve all got those people in our family I reckon. My mum held some very questionable opinions that many would just say they’re “of her time” but I’d always challenge her to reassess her views. She rarely changed but sometimes she did.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2021)

So many people seem to read and quote from a paper they are quick to condemn, strange world.


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## Kellfire (Feb 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			So many people seem to read and quote from a paper they are quick to condemn, strange world.
		
Click to expand...

Shielding yourself from opposing views isn’t the way to go about educating and challenging those views. Nothing wrong with taking a look at what other sides are saying.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Funny, you must read it to know it’s bile.
		
Click to expand...

I love playing a game of how the mail can turn a story into something bile 

Take a headline from a news source . Compare to how the mail report it

Few months ago BBC reported how drs would get a payrise but nurses wouldn't as they were already on a 3 year deal 

The daily bile led with disgrace that our nurses won't get a rise

Always go to the extreme to drum up hatred 


Also you don't need to read it. It's call twitter you can get all the headlines from the papers


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Shielding yourself from opposing views isn’t the way to go about educating and challenging those views. Nothing wrong with taking a look at what other sides are saying.
		
Click to expand...

Like when voting you should read both sides of arguments before deciding .. be it an election or a vote for club captain or whatever .. you need to read everything


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Shielding yourself from opposing views isn’t the way to go about educating and challenging those views. Nothing wrong with taking a look at what other sides are saying.
		
Click to expand...

Great answer, but in the end it’s just opinions, yours or some journalists. Doesn’t mean either of you are right.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Like when voting you should read both sides of arguments before deciding .. be it an election or a vote for club captain or whatever .. you need to read everything
		
Click to expand...

But do you read it all or just the headline. It’s like social media, some take the word of a complete stranger as fact.


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## Kellfire (Feb 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Great answer, but in the end it’s just opinions, yours or some journalists. Doesn’t mean either of you are right.
		
Click to expand...

Nope, not “right” per se, but I know out of myself and the editorial team of the Daily Mail who has more palatable morals and a sense of decency.


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 28, 2021)

Back on track please

Covid thread this is


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## D-S (Feb 28, 2021)

I posted the original tweet that seems to cause all the furore (I wish I hadn’t now, apologies). However I did in fact only past a tweet from Covid Fact Check UK (a reputable, I believe, source often quoted in this thread). The tweet was their comment on a tweet from another account ‘politics for all’.
I follow COVID Fact Check UK and for the record do not and would not follow or post something direct from the DM.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Covid thread this is
		
Click to expand...

Just stop that right this minute. You're a Sith not a Jedi


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## Imurg (Feb 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Just stop that right this minute. You're a Sith not a Jedi
		
Click to expand...

You spelt that wrong....


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You spelt that wrong....
		
Click to expand...

Wot  Deji?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 28, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366057080130535430
Numbers dropping at a big rate currently


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## Imurg (Feb 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Wot  Deji?  

Click to expand...

You Ejid...


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## SaintHacker (Feb 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			You spelt that wrong....
		
Click to expand...

I know what I meant, this avoids any wrist slaps


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## Imurg (Feb 28, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366057080130535430
Numbers dropping at a big rate currently
		
Click to expand...

It's good they give last Sunday's numbers as well..gives a bit more perspective..


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## GuyInLyon (Feb 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			So many people seem to read and quote from a paper they are quick to condemn, strange world.
		
Click to expand...

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
- Sun Tsu


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Back on track please

Covid thread this is
		
Click to expand...

That being the case Phil can we take down the shots of Daily Mail front pages with at least one Daily Express one in there?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			[R is going to go up next week the weather isn’t helping us.
		
Click to expand...

So the R number is going to increase due to the transmission outside?[/QUOTE]


road2ruin said:



			Isn’t that exactly what people were claiming last year with VE Day, BLM Marches and Beaches etc? There was never an uptick there and we were looking at far more people. Can’t see there be any difference in the R number next week. It’ll go up a bit after March 8th with the schools but that’s it.
		
Click to expand...




D-S said:



			Relevant tweet from a GP just now:-

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365706370796896258

Click to expand...

No wonder people get confused, today we have a SAGE expert saying large crowds outside in the warmer weather is a worry.🤷‍♂️

Prof Semple said it was "entirely possible" that "inadvertent activities" could drive up cases of coronavirus.

"It just takes a few families.... and we can kick off outbreaks," he said.

"We're so close but we could blow it by breaking the rules now," he added.

"Certainly people can go out and exercise" in the good weather, he said, "but it's this clustering - it's the meeting up in large parties on the beach or parks for picnics, that's where the rules are being broken".


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## SaintHacker (Feb 28, 2021)

After the winter we have just been through I feel we are at the stage that the benefits of getting outside, enjoying a bit of sun and having a bit of human contact, at a distance obviously, whilst it might not be exactly within the rules, far outweigh the minimal risk of transmitting it to anybody


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## Ethan (Feb 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			No wonder people get confused, today we have a SAGE expert saying large crowds outside in the warmer weather is a worry.🤷‍♂️

Prof Semple said it was "entirely possible" that "inadvertent activities" could drive up cases of coronavirus.

"It just takes a few families.... and we can kick off outbreaks," he said.

"We're so close but we could blow it by breaking the rules now," he added.

"Certainly people can go out and exercise" in the good weather, he said, "but it's this clustering - it's the meeting up in large parties on the beach or parks for picnics, that's where the rules are being broken".
		
Click to expand...

We have a SAGE expert and the Mail on Sunday's GP saying different things. Not seeing the difficulty in identifying which is the more expert opinion.


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			We have a SAGE expert and the Mail on Sunday's GP saying different things. Not seeing the difficulty in identifying which is the more expert opinion.
		
Click to expand...

But playing Devil’s Advocate where was the ‘driving up of cases’ last summer when we had thousands all mixing outdoors and there was no discernible change in the cases? I’m not defending those who are blatantly ignoring rules however I can’t see cases increasing with the outdoor examples I’ve seen this weekend unless people are also doing a load of indoor mixing.


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## Imurg (Feb 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But playing Devil’s Advocate where was the ‘driving up of cases’ last summer when we had thousands all mixing outdoors and there was no discernible change in the cases? I’m not defending those who are blatantly ignoring rules however I can’t see cases increasing with the outdoor examples I’ve seen this weekend unless people are also doing a load of indoor mixing.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe last summer we didn't have a more virulent strain doing the rounds......


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## road2ruin (Feb 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Maybe last summer we didn't have a more virulent strain doing the rounds......
		
Click to expand...

Quite possibly however what we lacked in virulent strains we made up for in the sheer numbers mixing together.


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2021)

Maybe the air inside is 'loaded' with the virus due to poor air exchange. Outdoors, any potential viral load is potentially massively diluted.


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## Old Skier (Feb 28, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
- Sun Tsu
		
Click to expand...

Should this be in the Myths thread.


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## D-S (Feb 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Maybe last summer we didn't have a more virulent strain doing the rounds......
		
Click to expand...

If we have a more virulent strain going around why are we opening golf straight to 4 balls which surely must increase chances of transmission if this new strain is more transmissible outside rather than 2 balls as per last year when cases continued to drop until late September.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			If we have a more virulent strain going around why are we opening golf straight to 4 balls which surely must increase chances of transmission if this new strain is more transmissible outside rather than 2 balls as per last year when cases continued to drop until late September.
		
Click to expand...

Because the rule of 6 has returned outdoors so just try stopping golf or tennis or anything else


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## Imurg (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			If we have a more virulent strain going around why are we opening golf straight to 4 balls which surely must increase chances of transmission if this new strain is more transmissible outside rather than 2 balls as per last year when cases continued to drop until late September.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting we don't have more virulent strains around?
Brazil veriant now as well as SAfrican.?
I was suggesting a possible/plausible reason why larger groupings outside might not be a good idea.
Small groups should pose less risk hence 4 balls being acceptable


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			If we have a more virulent strain going around why are we opening golf straight to 4 balls which surely must increase chances of transmission if this new strain is more transmissible outside rather than 2 balls as per last year *when cases continued to drop until late September.*

Click to expand...

I’m not sure they did?
17th August 2020 (About 3 weeks before schools reopened) the 7 day average daily cases in the UK was 1079.

Around 3 weeks after the schools reopened(early Sep) the 7 day average moved to 5770.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Are you suggesting we don't have more virulent strains around?
Brazil veriant now as well as SAfrican.?
I was suggesting a possible/plausible reason why larger groupings outside might not be a good idea.
Small groups should pose less risk hence 4 balls being acceptable
		
Click to expand...

Unless you kiss your playing partner your not going to get covid playing golf 

It's outside 

Nearest you get to someone is teeing off which a club that's 45 inches is being swung at 90 plus mph .. you are going to want to social distance


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## Ethan (Feb 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But playing Devil’s Advocate where was the ‘driving up of cases’ last summer when we had thousands all mixing outdoors and there was no discernible change in the cases? I’m not defending those who are blatantly ignoring rules however I can’t see cases increasing with the outdoor examples I’ve seen this weekend unless people are also doing a load of indoor mixing.
		
Click to expand...

I have previously said here that outdoors (and golf) are rather low risk, provided they are done responsibly, but this is a critical time and encouraging people to enjoy the outdoors without warning them to do so cautiously and safely is a potential problem when added to the inevitable relaxation that is occurring with vaccinated people and the additional risk of schools returning. It could all add up to a fightback by Covid.


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## hovis (Feb 28, 2021)

[/QUOTE]



Traminator said:



			Once we've been jabbed and everything is back open, are we still going to have compulsory self-isolation if we come into contact with a Covid case?
		
Click to expand...

Good question


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe the air inside is 'loaded' with the virus due to poor air exchange. Outdoors, any potential viral load is potentially massively diluted.
		
Click to expand...

There's no maybe about it. But there being such a difference doesn't mean you cannot transmit outdoors. If others air  is breathed in, it can transmit.
If droplets can pass from one to t'other ( less than 2 metres) , it can transmit.
Especially if it is a more easily transmissible strain.
Those conditions can be created outdoors under some circumstances.

If at this time ( still cold though sunny ) we stick to the rules, we have a very good chance of finally cracking it.
Patience, not patients.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 1, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Once we've been jabbed and everything is back open, are we still going to have compulsory self-isolation if we come into contact with a Covid case?
		
Click to expand...

That's one thing I want to know. I'd go a step further what if you show symtoms.. should you self isolate

Let's be honest covid will one day become like s common cold. People aren't going to isolate for it for 10 days long term ..

You don't with a cold you either battle on if not bad with some tablets or go off for few days then go back in when feel better 

How long before covid becomes just another illness


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Once we've been jabbed and everything is back open, are we still going to have compulsory self-isolation if we come into contact with a Covid case?
		
Click to expand...

Possibly. The number of Covid cases that occur will depends on how many people are not vaccinated, how effective the vaccines are and what new strains emerge. At this stage, there are no plans to vaccinate children, so that is a fair number of people, and a small minority of vaccinated can still get Covid, usually not too severe. If a new strain comes along that is less well controlled by vaccination, that number will rise.

It probably depends what the science shows, if we have enough data to tell. If vaccinated people are considered to have very low or no risk of transmission, then self-isolation of vaccinated people who ar contacts should not be needed.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 1, 2021)

Lots of talk about this "Brazilian" variant of the virus now being in the UK. Many people are getting very worried about it but from my understanding it is only affecting a little strip down south. 😀


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lots of talk about this "Brazilian" variant of the virus now being in the UK. Many people are getting very worried about it but from my understanding it is only affecting a little strip down south. 😀
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, but the country will be very badly exposed if we go full Brazilian. No hiding place.


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## road2ruin (Mar 1, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Lots of talk about this "Brazilian" variant of the virus now being in the UK. Many people are getting very worried about it but from my understanding it is only affecting a little strip down south. 😀
		
Click to expand...

Apparently it's a little unfair on the Brazilian's being tarred with this brush, it should be known as the Japanese variant as that is where it was first spotted. The reason it's being called the Brazilian variant is because of the (in)famous outbreak in Manaus!

Anyway, it was pretty obvious that there was going to be another scary variant being flagged as it gives the get out for restrictions being tightened. Given that we've allowed people in without them actually completing the required forms it's not going to be the first or the last international variant.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 1, 2021)

Just a reminder to everyone who wanted to wait just incase they were jumping queue 

Over 60s now fine

Please book if applies 🙏


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## drdel (Mar 1, 2021)

Its quite simple and there is no need for conjecture.

Login to the vaccination website and with your NHS number try and book a date.

If it accepts your NHS number fine if not wait and try again in a few days.


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## patricks148 (Mar 1, 2021)

one thing i have noticed from my personal exp, is women are the worste for not SD. I see it on a daily basis, walking two or eve 3 abreast and not moving to let people past SD wise, also meeting up out side, this moring coming back from dropping the car off at the garage, i saw groups of mostly momen meeting in s group of 5 and 6 alonmg the Ness and though the islands


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## pauljames87 (Mar 1, 2021)

drdel said:



			Its quite simple and there is no need for conjecture.

Login to the vaccination website and with your NHS number try and book a date.

If it accepts your NHS number fine if not wait and try again in a few days.
		
Click to expand...

Just last week a few didn't want to book because it said over 64 but was taking over 60s

Anyways now all over 60s can no matter what


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## upsidedown (Mar 1, 2021)

Booked in 6 days ago, at what turned out to be a  new vaccine hub, starting today . Arrived 15 mins before appointment, waited 5 mins in car and rolled up. No queue, few questions and done 5 mins ahead of schedule with the Az, 👍😁


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## AmandaJR (Mar 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently it's a little unfair on the Brazilian's being tarred with this brush, it should be known as the Japanese variant as that is where it was first spotted. The reason it's being called the Brazilian variant is because of the (in)famous outbreak in Manaus!

Anyway, it was pretty obvious that there was going to be another scary variant being flagged as it gives the get out for restrictions being tightened. *Given that we've allowed people in without them actually completing the required forms it's not going to be the first or the last international variant.*

Click to expand...

I think it was a postal test with an incomplete form so may not even have travelled abroad?


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## road2ruin (Mar 1, 2021)

The post earlier about whether we would still need to isolate with a positive Covid test got me thinking about how things would look on June 21st. Obviously this does assume that all of the steps of the roadmap having been ticked off with no untoward events with the final one being on Monday 21st June. This is the date where we are all unleashed back into society with no restrictions on social contact or anything else. Does anyone else feel that this is going to cause issues with those members of society who have been scared whit less by the MSM over the 18 month period? They are going to be faced with people getting close in supermarkets, potentially no masks and I think it's still going to cause arguments as people's behaviours will have changed, some of them permanently. I think it'll be interesting to see how local communities cope with the new found freedom come the summer.


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## GB72 (Mar 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The post earlier about whether we would still need to isolate with a positive Covid test got me thinking about how things would look on June 21st. Obviously this does assume that all of the steps of the roadmap having been ticked off with no untoward events with the final one being on Monday 21st June. This is the date where we are all unleashed back into society with no restrictions on social contact or anything else. Does anyone else feel that this is going to cause issues with those members of society who have been scared whit less by the MSM over the 18 month period? They are going to be faced with people getting close in supermarkets, potentially no masks and I think it's still going to cause arguments as people's behaviours will have changed, some of them permanently. I think it'll be interesting to see how local communities cope with the new found freedom come the summer.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, already had this conversation with my my wife. Plan is to ease ourselves into things gently. Plan to take advantage of being able to have a beer outside at the pub, then a meal in a small group, to simply reacclimatise myself to being around people in a social environment. Again, I am going to try and push myself to go to shops etc when open after 12th April to just get used to doing that again so as it will not seem as big a step on 21st June. I can see this being an issue for me and I have not particularly let covid get to me. That said, by April it will be over 6 months since I have been to a shop other than one supermarket


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## bobmac (Mar 1, 2021)

By June, I think all over 18s will have been offered the vaccine so there shouldn't be too much problem


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 1, 2021)

With regard to international travel it is utterly ridiculous listening to the Scottish hacks doing a complete 360 degrees from the critical questions they were asking on Friday.
They really are shameless, nae wonder no one in Scotland buys newspapers anymore.


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## hovis (Mar 1, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			With regard to international travel it is utterly ridiculous listening to the Scottish hacks doing a complete 360 degrees from the critical questions they were asking on Friday.
They really are shameless, nae wonder no one in Scotland buys newspapers anymore.
		
Click to expand...

What happened?


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## backwoodsman (Mar 1, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Just last week a few didn't want to book because it said over 64 but was taking over 60s

Anyways now all over 60s can no matter what
		
Click to expand...

I know that SW London is now doing 55 and over. My brother (58) got the nod last week  - so used the NHS site to book a slot, and was jabbed on Friday.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 1, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I know that SW London is now doing 55 and over. My brotger (58) got the nod last week  - so used the NHS site to book a slot, and was jabbed on Friday.
		
Click to expand...

Fantastic news 

From a selfish point of view soon as their done thats me, my dad, my mum, my father and mother in law all done 

Thats our support and childcare bubbles covered 

Wife should have had the call by now . Maybe the drs still not caught up


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2021)

drdel said:



			Its quite simple and there is no need for conjecture.

Login to the vaccination website and with your NHS number try and book a date.

If it accepts your NHS number fine if not wait and try again in a few days.
		
Click to expand...

^ This.


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## GB72 (Mar 1, 2021)

drdel said:



			Its quite simple and there is no need for conjecture.

Login to the vaccination website and with your NHS number try and book a date.

If it accepts your NHS number fine if not wait and try again in a few days.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, had a cheeky check on there today and was politely declined but going to keep trying just in case I miss the announcement that they have reached my age group. Wife getting vaccinated on Sunday and I am possibly a bit over the top excited that she is getting jabbed and in a few weeks the worst of my worries about her catching it will be over.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 1, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Agree, had a cheeky check on there today and was politely declined but going to keep trying just in case I miss the announcement that they have reached my age group. Wife getting vaccinated on Sunday and I am possibly a bit over the top excited that she is getting jabbed and in a few weeks the worst of my worries about her catching it will be over.
		
Click to expand...

Definitely worth it to keep trying.

I found out from this forum - last Wednesday - that over 60 was being done, despite the NHS website still saying 64 & over.  Today I got a letter asking me to book the jab and the letter was dated over a week ago. The point being, the site may well let you book well in advance of you getting your "official invite"


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## GB72 (Mar 1, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Definitely worth it to keep trying.

I found out from this forum - last Wednesday - that over 60 was being done, despite the NHS website still saying 64 & over.  Today I got a letter asking me to book the jab and the letter was dated over a week ago. The point being, the site may well let you book well in advance of you getting your "official invite"
		
Click to expand...

Agree, not sure why you would not as it takes 30 seconds and do not even need your NHS number.


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Definitely worth it to keep trying.

I found out from this forum - last Wednesday - that over 60 was being done, despite the NHS website still saying 64 & over.  Today I got a letter asking me to book the jab and the letter was dated over a week ago. The point being, the site may well let you book well in advance of you getting your "official invite"
		
Click to expand...

The website will only update when the great majority of places are ready to move to the next stage, but your locality may well be ahead of that schedule, in some cases by more than one age category. People should absolutely check the website and try to book. No harm done if the computer says no.


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## road2ruin (Mar 1, 2021)

For anyone worried that they’ll book a vaccine before their time and take someone else’s space!


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## banjofred (Mar 1, 2021)

[QUOTE="pauljames87, post: 2317330, member: 21784"*Just last week a few didn't want to book because it said over 64 but was taking over 60s*

Anyways now all over 60s can no matter what[/QUOTE]
banjofred.....guilty. 

Actually got a note in the mail today telling me to go ahead and try to book (I'm booked for the 12th). The whole country seems to be at different speeds....which is ok....I guess.

Hey....I've got my permanent visa now (jeez, was that a hassle and ££££).....so I don't have to worry about getting kicked out for breaking the rules......well....minor ones.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 1, 2021)

hovis said:



			What happened?
		
Click to expand...

Three Covid positive Brazil tourists returned to NE Scotland via Paris then London.
The Friday before the hacks were screaming to open up the travel routes.


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## GB72 (Mar 1, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Three Covid positive Brazil tourists returned to NE Scotland via Paris then London.
The Friday before the hacks were screaming to open up the travel routes.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly now we simply have a press that, in the majority simply want to be contrary and court controversy. The rules are to tighten the boarders, the press state how that will kill off the travel industry, the rules are to have a lighter touch on the boarders then the headlines are how we are all going to die from some horrific mutant strain of covid. Same with everything else, you close pubs then you are killing off the hospitality industry, you open pubs then you are killing off the whole population. 

Journalism is there to investigate and question yes but not to arbitrarily print the opposite view to that being taken by those in charge. Pick a side, stand your ground, argue your case and support the decision if your view is accepted.


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## GB72 (Mar 1, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Three Covid positive Brazil tourists returned to NE Scotland via Paris then London.
The Friday before the hacks were screaming to open up the travel routes.
		
Click to expand...

BBC this morning 'people are getting through customs to easily hence the new variants of covid'

BBC this afternoon 'Heathrow is an inhumane hellhole as they are taking too long to carry out stringent checks on passengers'


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## pauljames87 (Mar 1, 2021)

banjofred said:



			[QUOTE="pauljames87, post: 2317330, member: 21784"*Just last week a few didn't want to book because it said over 64 but was taking over 60s*

Anyways now all over 60s can no matter what
		
Click to expand...

banjofred.....guilty. 

Actually got a note in the mail today telling me to go ahead and try to book (I'm booked for the 12th). The whole country seems to be at different speeds....which is ok....I guess.

Hey....I've got my permanent visa now (jeez, was that a hassle and ££££).....so I don't have to worry about getting kicked out for breaking the rules......well....minor ones.[/QUOTE]

A few of my mother's friends were guilty 

Her good friend had a go at her for booking even tho she is an IT teacher so she should know how a website works! 

And another booked his then cancelled as he thought he shouldn't have booked it

I believe they have now booked again


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2021)

GB72 said:



			BBC this morning 'people are getting through customs to easily hence the new variants of covid'

BBC this afternoon 'Heathrow is an inhumane hellhole as they are taking too long to carry out stringent checks on passengers'
		
Click to expand...

Both are possible if there is poor staffing and inconsistent application of the rules.


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## GB72 (Mar 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Both are possible if there is poor staffing and inconsistent application of the rules.
		
Click to expand...

A fair point. No the best example, just the most recent. I respect journalists who hold people to account but it has to be based on a solid platform. Any opinion or level of believability is simply weakened if the argument one week is in favour of going down a certain route and when that is adopted, the argument changes to the contrary. It is such a pity as I strongly believe that quality journalism is a massive benefit to any country, I just seem hard pressed to find such journalism any more. Sadly, sensationalism has taken over.


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## bobmac (Mar 1, 2021)

GB72 said:



			A fair point. No the best example, just the most recent. I respect journalists who hold people to account but it has to be based on a solid platform. Any opinion or level of believability is simply weakened if the argument one week is in favour of going down a certain route and when that is adopted, the argument changes to the contrary. It is such a pity as I strongly believe that quality journalism is a massive benefit to any country, I just seem hard pressed to find such journalism any more. Sadly, sensationalism has taken over.
		
Click to expand...

It's not brilliant but it could be worse.
Try watching Tucker Carlson on Fox news and you'll soon cheer up


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 1, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366418965812170758

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366419605921689610


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## chellie (Mar 1, 2021)

Could the UK Covid 19 Stats and the Covid Fact Check uk tweets not go in their own thread?


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2021)

Warning: Facts and data. Those of a fact-averse disposition please pass by. 

The preprint of the vaccine data referred to in the press conference is available here: Not yet peer reviewed

Matt Hancock suggested that there was some evidence AZ was more effective than Pfizer. The paper does not make the same claim, because the populations treated were not the same and therefore the data is not directly comparable. However, I think people can be reassured that both vaccines are highly effective, and you should take the first one offered.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 1, 2021)

Good news I can book a jab.
Bad news no vaccine for 2 weeks locally.


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			Good news I can book a jab.
Bad news no vaccine for 2 weeks locally.
		
Click to expand...

If you are able to access the website, there is probably a letter in the post to you with a more local offer. Or you could consider somewhere a bit further away for a website booking.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If you are able to access the website, there is probably a letter in the post to you with a more local offer. Or you could consider somewhere a bit further away for a website booking.
		
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To be fair if I could book further away but then I’d need to go back there for the second one.  Given I am following the the guidelines I will wait until my area gets restocked.


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## D-S (Mar 1, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			To be fair if I could book further away but then I’d need to go back there for the second one.  Given I am following the the guidelines I will wait until my area gets restocked.
		
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You don’t have to get the 2nd jab in the same place as the first, I am being done at two different local locations. I know of someone who is having their first one in Bristol and has booked the second one in Essex.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Warning: Facts and data. Those of a fact-averse disposition please pass by.

The preprint of the vaccine data referred to in the press conference is available here: Not yet peer reviewed

Matt Hancock suggested that there was some evidence AZ was more effective than Pfizer. The paper does not make the same claim, because the populations treated were not the same and therefore the data is not directly comparable. However, I think people can be reassured that both vaccines are highly effective, and you should take the first one offered.
		
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Don't come on here with your years of medical training, knowledge and facts and spout off to the rest of us. Are you seriously trying to suggest that my 40 minutes of watching YouTube videos and extensive research from reading what Barbara (who is a Bettaware rep, she also does Body Shop on the side) on Facebook has got to say, while wearing my tinfoil hat doesn't outrank you in terms of knowing what's going on with this virus? You medical types are all so arrogant.


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## Imurg (Mar 1, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Don't come on here with your years of medical training, knowledge and facts and spout off to the rest of us. Are you seriously trying to suggest that my 40 minutes of watching YouTube videos and extensive research from reading what Barbara (who is a Bettaware rep, she also does Body Shop on the side) on Facebook has got to say, while wearing my tinfoil hat doesn't outrank you in terms of knowing what's going on with this virus? You medical types are all so arrogant. 

Click to expand...

 Calm down Karen....do you need to see a manager?


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## SaintHacker (Mar 1, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			Good news I can book a jab.
Bad news no vaccine for 2 weeks locally.
		
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Whereabouts in Hampshire are you if you dont mind me asking? Southampton/ new forest area seem to be blitzing it with no sign of slowing down


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## HampshireHog (Mar 1, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Whereabouts in Hampshire are you if you dont mind me asking? Southampton/ new forest area seem to be blitzing it with no sign of slowing down
		
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Hart, it might be we’re just a small area.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 1, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			To be fair if I could book further away but then I’d need to go back there for the second one.  Given I am following the the guidelines I will wait until my area gets restocked.
		
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You can book in two locations

One for 1st another for second


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## larmen (Mar 1, 2021)

They are trialling an interesting app in Germany.
For every vaccine that is predicted to be wasted at the end of the day they are contacting 3 people locally, 1st one replying gets it. Random but by priority group. Nobody replies, they roll it over to the next lot after 30 minutes. The goal is than no unit goes wasted.
By the time they roll this out the UK will be to far through to make it useful here, but it’s a great principle and it looks to get over the ‘football teams’ issue we had in Cheltenham(?) last week.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2021)

Theve just opened a large vaccination facility just down the road from me at the Three Counties Showground. Should be able to get through quite a lot of additional people there.


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## banjofred (Mar 2, 2021)

Well.....shiver me timbers.....after finding out on this site that I could go online and book a jab (12 March), we just got texts from the surgery with a link to book jabs. We almost didn't look, but we checked and can now get them at the Showground in 2 days. We cancelled the other ones after taking the ones in 2 days.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Well.....shiver me timbers.....after finding out on this site that I could go online and book a jab (12 March), we just got texts from the surgery with a link to book jabs. We almost didn't look, but we checked and can now get them at the Showground in 2 days. We cancelled the other ones after taking the ones in 2 days. 

Click to expand...


Good to see it's caught up

I've booked my second for may 8th if they offer me closer to home same day I'll consider but then me and dad are booked in together to car share


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366782869591457795

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366783199549001731
cases continue to fall

Levels at what they were around late September


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## pauljames87 (Mar 2, 2021)

Isle of Man in a 21 day circuit breaker after a spike In cases 

Proper told you so moment that 

Lifting like they did all at once ..


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## williamalex1 (Mar 2, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I've had some stinking hangovers the last few months, surley thats got to count for something?🤔
		
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Don't sober up, that should stop the hangovers


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Isle of Man in a 21 day circuit breaker after a spike In cases

Proper told you so moment that

Lifting like they did all at once ..
		
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Still going to be out of lockdown before the mainland. 

This outbreak seems to have come from infected ferry crew members.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 3, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Still going to be out of lockdown before the mainland.

This outbreak seems to have come from infected ferry crew members.
		
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Same thing that caused the Stranraer spike a month ago.


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## Hobbit (Mar 3, 2021)

All hell breaking out on social media in Andalucia, and has been picked up by the British Consulate who are making formal approaches for clarification. The Junta de Andalucia Health Minister has said that all foreign nationals not registered on the Spanish health system will have to go to their home country for their vaccination. We fall within that group. If you're retired but not old enough for a state pension you can't register on the Spanish health system but must, by law, hold private health insurance to qualify for Residencia.

Great! So we can approach our private healthcare provider... but private healthcare providers are not allowed to sell the jab. The only access to the vaccine is via the Spanish Health system, which we're not registered on.

All we need is for this to be confirmed, and for vaccine passports to be introduced. Then we can't get the jab here but also can't travel. Can't say I'm overly anxious about it as I expect the Junta to see sense, eventually - hopefully just something lost in the initial translation.


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## Ethan (Mar 3, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			All hell breaking out on social media in Andalucia, and has been picked up by the British Consulate who are making formal approaches for clarification. The Junta de Andalucia Health Minister has said that all foreign nationals not registered on the Spanish health system will have to go to their home country for their vaccination. We fall within that group. If you're retired but not old enough for a state pension you can't register on the Spanish health system but must, by law, hold private health insurance to qualify for Residencia.

Great! So we can approach our private healthcare provider... but private healthcare providers are not allowed to sell the jab. The only access to the vaccine is via the Spanish Health system, which we're not registered on.

All we need is for this to be confirmed, and for vaccine passports to be introduced. Then we can't get the jab here but also can't travel. Can't say I'm overly anxious about it as I expect the Junta to see sense, eventually - hopefully just something lost in the initial translation.
		
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It is a very short sighted idea. They want people to travel to the UK, Germany, Russia, probably, and then come back? That is public health madness. The virus doesn't differentiate between citizens, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants. It is true that private healthcare providers can't access the vaccine, the same is true in the UK. 

This is probably posturing, and they will wise up.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 3, 2021)

Mum jabbed this morning 

That's me, my father, my father in law, and now my mother done (1st jab) second jabs booked for may time for all of us 

Wife still waiting for Dr to update his system 

Mother in law (56) will be the next category


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## Slab (Mar 3, 2021)

@Ethan 
If stored correctly have you any idea of the shelf life for the big two vaccines? (i.e is there a 'use by' date after production etc)


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## Ethan (Mar 3, 2021)

Slab said:



@Ethan
If stored correctly have you any idea of the shelf life for the big two vaccines? (i.e is there a 'use by' date after production etc)
		
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The current approved shelf life is currently relatively short, 6 months, because that is as long as they have been able to test, but if stored in the correct conditions, the vaccine should last much longer and with time and further testing, will get its shelf life extended. Once taken out of the freezer, warmed up and reconstituted, the doses need to be used within 6 hours, hence this problem of spare/wasted doses.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 3, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367148464489005058

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367148811152416774
also the numbers of people in Beds in hospital due to Covid is now before 10k

That’s the lowest since October and 72% down on the numbers in Jan 

It’s not over but it’s clear that lockdown and vaccine has delivered some big blows to the virus


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## IainP (Mar 3, 2021)

As the UK stats remain trending positively 👍, some stories from around the world.

In the USA, Texas and some other states are dropping "covid measures", which include masks no longer needed. Am not judging, as per this forum there are a lot of views on timing & detail, and US is doing pretty well with vaccination  - but it will be interesting to follow.

Closer to home, Austria & Denmark are looking at linking up with Israel to obtain vaccines more quickly.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

First jab booked for Mrs BiM and I at Epsom next Wednesday , but unable to find a slot for the second at the time of booking unless we go to Streatham .

Will try & book nearer the time it's due and see what the options are..


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			First jab booked for Mrs BiM and I at Epsom next Wednesday , but unable to find a slot for the second at the time of booking unless we go to Streatham .

Will try & book nearer the time it's due and see what the options are..
		
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Hold the happiness, the system appears to demand that you book your second jab at the time you book the first; if you don't the system cancels the booking.  So it appears that you need to book both jabs at the same time & then go back in and try to alter the second if it doesn't suit.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hold the happiness, the system appears to demand that you book your second jab at the time you book the first; if you don't the system cancels the booking.  So it appears that you need to book both jabs at the same time & then go back in and try to alter the second if it doesn't suit.
		
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Not just us then... That are having issues booking jab two...


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

Finally sorted, a week tomorrow for the first one.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Not just us then... That are having issues booking jab two...
		
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No, definitely not.  I can understand that they want to punt people through Epsom as quick as possible for the first, but some of the second jab options weren't great in terms of travel and parking, and as we are both now eligible we were trying to find dates that suited both of us to use one car whilst trying to avoid potential work issues.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No, definitely not.  I can understand that they want to punt people through Epsom as quick as possible for the first, but some of the second jab options weren't great in terms of travel and parking, and as we are both now eligible we were trying to find dates that suited both of us to use one car whilst trying to avoid potential work issues.
		
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We were trying to get booked into the centre we can walk to with no luck... So we tried to get booked where we went last time... Could get one of us in but not both on the same day let alone at same time...


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## D-S (Mar 4, 2021)

With Texas and a couple of other southern states relaxing advice on wearing masks and social distancing , will we be able to learn how such a seemingly ’Neanderthal’ (in the words of Joe Biden) move will pan out in a semi vaccinated environment or will their ‘experiment’ not give us any sort view of potential risk of a too early release?
Seems unbelievably foolhardy to me but questions will arise in due course on when, if things go well, we will/should relax such rules - Autumn or perhaps even never?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hold the happiness, the system appears to demand that you book your second jab at the time you book the first; if you don't the system cancels the booking.  So it appears that you need to book both jabs at the same time & then go back in and try to alter the second if it doesn't suit.
		
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Book both then cancel second after you have first


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			We were trying to get booked into the centre we can walk to with no luck... So we tried to get booked where we went last time... Could get one of us in but not both on the same day let alone at same time...
		
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None of ours were viable walking distances; 2.5 miles as the crow flies was the nearest that came up.  The one that is actually nearest & that we could have walked or taken public transport was never offered to us, which confused me.   We've ended up with one at Epsom & one in the middle of Kingston, which will be fun parking at.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 4, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			We were trying to get booked into the centre we can walk to with no luck... So we tried to get booked where we went last time... Could get one of us in but not both on the same day let alone at same time...
		
Click to expand...

The walk in ones seem to be for people who get a txt invite link (I got this)

The website opens all kinds of centres all over the country including chemists etc


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			None of ours were viable walking distances; 2.5 miles as the crow flies was the nearest that came up.  The one that is actually nearest & that we could have walked or taken public transport was never offered to us, which confused me.   We've ended up with one at Epsom & one in the middle of Kingston, which will be fun parking at.
		
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If we have to travel fine... But as I no longer drive and really prefer not to use public transport, at this time, it makes sense [to us] to get booked in at the same centre at same/similiar time...


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The walk in ones seem to be for people who get a txt invite link (I got this)

The website opens all kinds of centres all over the country including chemists etc
		
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Think you've mis-read my post... It's a centre we can walk to... 2x Par 5's tops! Wouldn't know if it is a 'walk in' facility...


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## oxymoron (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Hold the happiness, the system appears to demand that you book your second jab at the time you book the first; if you don't the system cancels the booking.  So it appears that you need to book both jabs at the same time & then go back in and try to alter the second if it doesn't suit.
		
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Yes this happened to the better half , really pissed her off especially saying she had missed or not turned up for her jab when she still had a week before it was due


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 4, 2021)

D-S said:



			With Texas and a couple of other southern states relaxing advice on wearing masks and social distancing , will we be able to learn how such a seemingly ’Neanderthal’ (in the words of Joe Biden) move will pan out in a semi vaccinated environment or will their ‘experiment’ not give us any sort view of potential risk of a too early release?
Seems unbelievably foolhardy to me but questions will arise in due course on when, if things go well, we will/should relax such rules - Autumn or perhaps even never?
		
Click to expand...

Just have a look at my home country Sweden. There it is* recommended* to wear a mask on public transport between 7-9am and 4-6pm on weekdays. On the other hand, barely anyone have been vaccinated anyway, so the Swedish experiment of going against the rest of the world continues. Unbelievable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2021)

D-S said:



			With Texas and a couple of other southern states relaxing advice on wearing masks and social distancing , will we be able to learn how such a seemingly ’Neanderthal’ (in the words of Joe Biden) move will pan out in a semi vaccinated environment or will their ‘experiment’ not give us any sort view of potential risk of a too early release?
Seems unbelievably foolhardy to me but questions will arise in due course on when, if things go well, we will/should relax such rules - Autumn or perhaps even never?
		
Click to expand...

...bearing in mind that currently just over 12% of Texas residents have been vaccinated...and as some commentators have observed - nightclubs can be fully opened up - and just in time for the academic Spring Break from 19th March.  Watch with interest.


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## GB72 (Mar 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...bearing in mind that currently just over 12% of Texas residents have been vaccinated...and as some commentators have observed - nightclubs can be fully opened up - and just in time for the academic Spring Break from 19th March.  Watch with interest.
		
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Lot of countries and states need to be careful about spring break. Tens of thousands of students looking for a party, not at all a recipe for disaster.


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## Ethan (Mar 4, 2021)

Couple of graphics simply showing how the vaccines work and differ.


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## hovis (Mar 4, 2021)

Come on Phil. Where's my figures man!!!!


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## DanFST (Mar 4, 2021)

It's Phil's job.


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## hovis (Mar 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			It's Phil's job.


View attachment 35402

Click to expand...

That's just nasty 😕


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			None of ours were viable walking distances; 2.5 miles as the crow flies was the nearest that came up.  The one that is actually nearest & that we could have walked or taken public transport was never offered to us, which confused me.   We've ended up with one at Epsom & one in the middle of Kingston, which will be fun parking at.
		
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Unfortunately not all centers  are on the central booking site . Our only big vaccination centre in N Devon for some reason refuses to go on the main site and has to be booked via a link sent by the GP. Causing major confusion in the area.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately not all centers  are on the central booking site . Our only big vaccination centre in N Devon for some reason refuses to go on the main site and has to be booked via a link sent by the GP. Causing major confusion in the area.
		
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Thanks for the explanation mate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately not all centers  are on the central booking site . Our only big vaccination centre in N Devon for some reason refuses to go on the main site and has to be booked via a link sent by the GP. Causing major confusion in the area.
		
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Hmmm - I am waiting for the vaccination centre 5mins walk from my front door to show availability on the central booking system - but I have never once yet seen ANY availibility...I wonder if it's just for GP appointments.


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## Old Skier (Mar 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm - I am waiting for the vaccination centre 5mins walk from my front door to show availability on the central booking system - but I have never once yet seen ANY availibility...I wonder if it's just for GP appointments.
		
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More than likely. Once again it highlights inefficiency in NHS and GP admin. You get a letter informing you to book an appointment, appointment not in a convenient location so wait for GP to contact you by another letter or text. Crazy and expensive.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 4, 2021)

In Scotland, we have to wait until we're sent an appointment letter, for both 1st and 2nd jabs.


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## Beedee (Mar 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			More than likely. Once again it highlights inefficiency in NHS and GP admin. You get a letter informing you to book an appointment, appointment not in a convenient location so wait for GP to contact you by another letter or text. Crazy and expensive.
		
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Is it a perfect system with minimal wastage and duplicated effort, no.  But in a national emergency we're still immunizing absolute shed loads of people every day.  

Alternatively, compare to the non-NHS/GP admin systems that we've had set up in the last year.  In comparison, the NHS/GP system is a perfectly jewelled swiss watch in terms of efficiency.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately not all centers  are on the central booking site . Our only big vaccination centre in N Devon for some reason refuses to go on the main site and has to be booked via a link sent by the GP. Causing major confusion in the area.
		
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I think is part of why we were having a problem of getting booked together... After speaking to our D-in-L this afternoon, who works at a medical centre, she advised waiting until we get an invite from our surgery... They, because they issued the invite, can turn a booking into a double [family] one... Most probably won't be at our most local centre but it will only mean the one trip as our first jabbing was...


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## MegaSteve (Mar 4, 2021)

Took time to watch the David Harewood documentary on iPlayer... Found it both informative as well as thought provoking...


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## banjofred (Mar 5, 2021)

Got the jab yesterday afternoon, feeling a bit funky today.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

Pretty [well, very] astonished at the announcement from Cyprus...
Be interesting how that gets managed... Here and there...


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Pretty [well, very] astonished at the announcement from Cyprus...
Be interesting how that gets managed... Here and there...
		
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Not sure that it can end well. Needing both jabs means that anyone under 50 will not be in a position to travel there until after the Summer holidays. Can people not see that anything that opens up a two tier system for those vaccinated and those not is going to cause massive issues.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Pretty [well, very] astonished at the announcement from Cyprus...
Be interesting how that gets managed... Here and there...
		
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I think they’ve been very clever, someone had to be first and which age group has, possibly, got the most disposable income and received both jabs by that date.

As for people being unhappy with a 2 tier system, don’t go to Cyprus in the future.

Obviously our current rules say no until the 14th May, but I just think Cyprus is looking after themselves.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 5, 2021)

Before anyone dives in and books, bear in mind you might have to isolate still when you return. It all depends what case numbers are like in Cyprus at the time.

Saying that, if I was retired and had 2 jabs I'd be down at Hays Travel now


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I think they’ve been very clever, someone had to be first and which age group has, possibly, got the most disposable income and received both jabs by that date.

As for people being unhappy with a 2 tier system, don’t go to Cyprus in the future.

Obviously our current rules say no until the 14th May, but I just think Cyprus is looking after themselves.
		
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Not got a problem with Cyprus. What I do have issues with is that the older generation were all about 'we are in this together' when young people with a low risk of issues were locking down to protect them. Now it is 'I'm all right Jack, i am off on my Summer holidays whilst all you people who gave up a year of their lives to protect me are stuck at home'. As I have said before, people are waiting patiently for their jab, can you really see all those selfish individuals who were hoarding food and toilet rolls during lockdown 1 being so calm and understanding if it is announced that they cannot go on holiday this year until they have had both jabs.


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## Ethan (Mar 5, 2021)

It was never going to happen as a fully packaged and agreed cross-national agreement, all rolled out at a time when many people could avail of it. Cyprus may help to pull other countries along to do the same. For me, the big wild card is children. Previously u-12s did not need tested, but the vax cannot be given to u-16 or 18 (depending on the vax), so there is going to be a teenager gap.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Before anyone dives in and books, bear in mind you might have to isolate still when you return. It all depends what case numbers are like in Cyprus at the time.

Saying that, if I was retired and had 2 jabs I'd be down at Hays Travel now 

Click to expand...


Well, I am possibly going to be in a position to take up their offer mid-May... But really can't be asked with the likely hassle on return... We've booked a week in Whitby instead... Studied all the feedbacks and have [hopefully] picked a property that is more than up to scratch for cleanliness etc... We'll be doing all our own cooking aside from, maybe, a fish 'n chip takeaway... Making sure we are 'socially aware' will be with us for sometime yet... Believe that is a key way, on top of vaxxing, to ensure we arrive out of this 'mess' safely...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 5, 2021)

Not sure I'm too happy about this twice weekly testing at schools. Is it really any good for their health having a swab shoved up their nose that often? I'm actually quite concerned for my two, I obviously want them back in school asap but at what cost to their health going forward? If they want this kind of testing regime they really should be proritising spit tests for school children.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not sure I'm too happy about this twice weekly testing at schools. Is it really any good for their health having a swab shoved up their nose that often? I'm actually quite concerned for my two, I obviously want them back in school asap but at what cost to their health going forward? If they want this kind of testing regime they really should be proritising spit tests for school children.
		
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No harm will come as a result of a swab to your throat and up your nose for 5-10 seconds. Child or Adult.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 5, 2021)

And so it goes on.  My MiL’s twin sister‘s funeral just a few weeks back and a best friend of her’s died back November, this morning we have just heard that her brother died this morning - so my MiL has lost her twin sister and brother in a matter of 6 weeks or so and so she’s not in a good place this morning...and I am thinking that at the moment my wife isn’t allowed to travel to her mums and stay over a night or two to comfort and support.  We really do need to all work together to get out of this terrible place that we as a country are in if for no other reason than our inherent humanity to each other - especially those closest to us - demands it.


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## Ethan (Mar 5, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			No harm will come as a result of a swab to your throat and up your nose for 5-10 seconds. Child or Adult.
		
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My 13 year old did his a couple of hours ago. No big deal, he said.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 5, 2021)

Bdill93 said:



			No harm will come as a result of a swab to your throat and up your nose for 5-10 seconds. Child or Adult.
		
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Once or twice then no probably not, but twice a week indefinitely? I'm not so sure


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## SaintHacker (Mar 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			My 13 year old did his a couple of hours ago. No big deal, he said.
		
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Was this one of the home tests Ethan or done at school?


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## Ethan (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Was this one of the home tests Ethan or done at school?
		
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At the school, in prep for going back next week.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			At the school, in prep for going back next week.
		
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I work in a school and do the tests twice weekly - theyre literally no bother


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Once or twice then no probably not, but twice a week indefinitely? I'm not so sure
		
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Not sure it is indefinitely. You have until the end of this term and maybe up to the summer holidays then all staff should have had at least jab 1 and so suspect it will stop after that, if it goes on that long. Much I guess is geared to getting the kids back in school whilst minimising the impact on the improved figures from lockdown.


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## Ethan (Mar 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			More than likely. Once again it highlights inefficiency in NHS and GP admin. You get a letter informing you to book an appointment, appointment not in a convenient location so wait for GP to contact you by another letter or text. Crazy and expensive.
		
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I would look at as a safety net system. The key is to get as many people done as fast as possible. Offering two levels of appointment minimises people missed by one or other method and allows people to choose, crudely, faster access if they are able to travel a bit, or more convenient access but it might take a bit longer. The economic cost of running both notification systems is pretty small compared to the value of pushing lots of people through. The two systems link up behind the scenes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not got a problem with Cyprus. What I do have issues with is that the older generation were all about 'we are in this together' when young people with a low risk of issues were locking down to protect them. Now it is 'I'm all right Jack, i am off on my Summer holidays whilst all you people who gave up a year of their lives to protect me are stuck at home'. As I have said before, people are waiting patiently for their jab, can you really see all those selfish individuals who were hoarding food and toilet rolls during lockdown 1 being so calm and understanding if it is announced that they cannot go on holiday this year until they have had both jabs.
		
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But again though, Cyprus have made a rule only based on 2 jabs, it’s not only the old who have had 2 jabs, by May there’ll be a lot of younger people who have had it, what about the Doctors or Nurses or NHS Admin Staff of all ages, are you telling them to sit on their hands or are they ok to travel?

I


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## SaintHacker (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not sure it is indefinitely. You have until the end of this term and maybe up to the summer holidays then all staff should have had at least jab 1 and so suspect it will stop after that, if it goes on that long. Much I guess is geared to getting the kids back in school whilst minimising the impact on the improved figures from lockdown.
		
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Fingers crossed, bit incan see it going on until a vaccine is approved for use in children. Hope I'm wrong. Our kids are having it done at school at first but apparently we're getting home kits sent out in due course


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## AmandaJR (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not sure I'm too happy about this twice weekly testing at schools. Is it really any good for their health having a swab shoved up their nose that often? I'm actually quite concerned for my two, I obviously want them back in school asap but at what cost to their health going forward? If they want this kind of testing regime they really should be proritising spit tests for school children.
		
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Not sure a swab is any worse than a finger and most kids have those up their noses more than twice a week.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

Believe my D-in-L is concerned that the senior school, one of our grandsons attends, has a large proportion of pupils that travel there from areas of high infection...


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			But again though, Cyprus have made a rule only based on 2 jabs, it’s not only the old who have had 2 jabs, by May there’ll be a lot of younger people who have had it, what about the Doctors or Nurses or NHS Admin Staff of all ages, are you telling them to sit on their hands or are they ok to travel?

I
		
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They wait as well. We all lock down to protect those most at risk, those most at risk stay locked down until everyone can enjoy the same privileges.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so it goes on.  My MiL’s twin sister‘s funeral just a few weeks back and a best friend of her’s died back November, this morning we have just heard that her brother died this morning - so my MiL has lost her twin sister and brother in a matter of 6 weeks or so and so she’s not in a good place this morning...and I am thinking that at the moment my wife isn’t allowed to travel to her mums and stay over a night or two to comfort and support.  We really do need to all work together to get out of this terrible place that we as a country are in if for no other reason than our inherent humanity to each other - especially those closest to us - demands it.
		
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SILH, why is your wife not allowed to go over to look after MIL. For me there is a massive difference between going to a lockdown party and looking after your MIL. Currently Missis T is at her parents house. She isolated for over a week. We both had a Covid test which was negative, and Missis T has been at there house since Monday til possibly this Monday. Why? MiL had a mastectomy on weds and FIL has dementia so he cannot be on his own. I would have a word with Missis SILH, Both of you have a Covid test and get Missis SILH over to her mothers.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Not sure a swab is any worse than a finger and most kids have those up their noses more than twice a week.
		
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Fingers dont go right up to the back of the nose though


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Fingers dont go right up to the back of the nose though
		
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Can I ask what harm you think this may do?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			They wait as well. We all lock down to protect those most at risk, those most at risk stay locked down until everyone can enjoy the same privileges.
		
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I actually agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, I just don’t believe for one minute that is what will happen.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			But again though, Cyprus have made a rule only based on 2 jabs, it’s not only the old who have had 2 jabs, by May there’ll be a lot of younger people who have had it, what about the Doctors or Nurses or NHS Admin Staff of all ages, are you telling them to sit on their hands or are they ok to travel?

I
		
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The thing is as well Paul, that is The decision of Cyprus. If they are comfortable with that fine. But and this is a massive but. If the UK governments travel advice is contrary to what Cyprus say, or any other country then no one is leaving the country. 
Which leads me onto vaccine passports. There are a few folk that are adamant that they do not want one. That’s there decision. However if Cyprus or any country will not let a visitor from the UK enter its country with proof of vaccination. Said visitor will not even get on the plane. They might not like it but if folk want to travel.The decision will be made for them.
Re older folk not travelling, or anyone that’s classed as vulnerable etc that have had both vaccines and “ should not travel”. I don’t get it. Again countries like Cyprus, there main income is travel. They like most countries economies have been devastated. Are we to seriously expect folk to stay at home when countries including the UK allow them to travel when they have had there Jabs. That said Tashyboy is staying at home for the foreseeable future.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 5, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The thing is as well Paul, that is The decision of Cyprus. If they are comfortable with that fine. But and this is a massive but. If the UK governments travel advice is contrary to what Cyprus say, or any other country then no one is leaving the country.
Which leads me onto vaccine passports. There are a few folk that are adamant that they do not want one. That’s there decision. However if Cyprus or any country will not let a visitor from the UK enter its country with proof of vaccination. Said visitor will not even get on the plane. They might not like it but if folk want to travel.The decision will be made for them.
Re older folk not travelling, or anyone that’s classed as vulnerable etc that have had both vaccines and “ should not travel”. I don’t get it. Again countries like Cyprus, there main income is travel. They like most countries economies have been devastated. Are we to seriously expect folk to stay at home when countries including the UK allow them to travel when they have had there Jabs. That said Tashyboy is staying at home for the foreseeable future.
		
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Like you say Tash, if the Government only advise were people should or should not travel to, some will ignore it.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 5, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Can I ask what harm you think this may do?
		
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I dont know, bit having a cotton bud constantly shoved up there as far as it will go can't do it any good


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## AmandaJR (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Fingers dont go right up to the back of the nose though
		
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I don't think it needs to go so far as to be a problem or indeed painful...half an inch...
*
Put the swab gently into one nostril, you may feel a slight resistance (insert about 1.5cm or about half an inch). Roll the swab 10 times slowly along the inside of the nostril. Remove the swab and repeat 10 times in the other nostril.*


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I actually agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, I just don’t believe for one minute that is what will happen.
		
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Nor do I and I do fear for what may happen in relation to people politely waiting for a vaccination when it becomes clear that people will not be able to go on their summer holiday this year whilst the older couple next door are off on the next flight meanwhile something like 90% of UK holiday places are booked for this year already and prices are skyrocketing.


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## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Nor do I and I do fear for what may happen in relation to people politely waiting for a vaccination when it becomes clear that people will not be able to go on their summer holiday this year whilst the older couple next door are off on the next flight meanwhile something like 90% of UK holiday places are booked for this year already and prices are skyrocketing.
		
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Said it before, If it doesn't happen and we have another strain that forces us back to where we are now. You can forget compliance in the young.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I dont know, bit having a cotton bud constantly shoved up there as far as it will go can't do it any good
		
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Twicea week is hardly constantly and it doesn't need to be as far as it can go.


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2021)

Saw a couple of friends we hadn't seen since just after New Year, courtesy of the local lockdowns. They'd gone to a bar for lunch on NY Eve with a group of friends. We were invited but declined, thinking it would be too busy. 13 went, spread across 3 tables. 9 of them ended up with Covid, traced back to the restaurant. 1 of them died 2 days ago.


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Said it before, If it doesn't happen and we have another strain that forces us back to where we are now. You can forget compliance in the young.
		
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Another point I agree with. If certain groups start heading off abroad in May whilst others are in lockdown, you simply hand them an argument on a plate for not complying if any further restrictions are required down the line. I really have stuck pretty rigorously to the rules but if those who have been vaccinated start taking holidays whilst I am under restrictions, my willingness to keep doing the right thing will be seriously diminished. Furthermore, there remains the risk of bringing home a variant, especially if the country they are visiting is not that far along with vaccination.


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## D-S (Mar 5, 2021)

I’m not sure I understand all this ‘if they get to do something that I’m not allowed to do then I have carte blanche to break the rules’ attitude. From about September last year onwards some parts of the country were allowed to go to the pub or restaurant etc. whilst other neighbouring areas were not allowed. This was irritating but comprehensible- a sort of postcode lottery that had quite an effect on quality of life. We couldn’t visit parents as they were in Tier 4, if they lived in a slightly different area it would have been fine. This whole time there has been ‘unfairness’, this may just be the last part.
Personally I would not want any vaccine passports issued before everyone has had the opportunity to have one, but someone older than me going to Cyprus in June should’t be an excuse to break guidelines that might end up harming someone.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 5, 2021)

Mrs just been called. Jab 16th march

Mum got done yest

Only her mum left and that's our support and childcare bubbles done so safer all round especially with mum back in school next week


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 5, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, why is your wife not allowed to go over to look after MIL. For me there is a massive difference between going to a lockdown party and looking after your MIL. Currently Missis T is at her parents house. She isolated for over a week. We both had a Covid test which was negative, and Missis T has been at there house since Monday til possibly this Monday. Why? MiL had a mastectomy on weds and FIL has dementia so he cannot be on his own. I would have a word with Missis SILH, Both of you have a Covid test and get Missis SILH over to her mothers.
		
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Her brother is currently staying at home with his mum while he looks for work having lost his job in Malta at the outset of the pandemic - unfortunately he’s pretty useless on the comfort and empathy front.  It would be great if my Mrs could go up to her mums but on what grounds can she do that whilst staying within the law and the rules - because despite the behaviour of friends pushing and overstepping the rules she does not want their behaviour to give her an excuse to do likewise.


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			I’m not sure I understand all this ‘if they get to do something that I’m not allowed to do then I have carte blanche to break the rules’ attitude. From about September last year onwards some parts of the country were allowed to go to the pub or restaurant etc. whilst other neighbouring areas were not allowed. This was irritating but comprehensible- a sort of postcode lottery that had quite an effect on quality of life. We couldn’t visit parents as they were in Tier 4, if they lived in a slightly different area it would have been fine. This whole time there has been ‘unfairness’, this may just be the last part.
Personally I would not want any vaccine passports issued before everyone has had the opportunity to have one, but someone older than me going to Cyprus in June should’t be an excuse to break guidelines that might end up harming someone.
		
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it is not a carte blanche, just a mental attitude. Tiers or not, the general rallying call through this is that we are all in this together to protect those most at risk and the NHS. To then change that view to, we have been vaccinated so we are all right, you enjoy your lock down whilst we are sunning it in Cyprus is not ideal, especially if you then have to ask for similar commitment from the whole country in the future. Add to that the fact that travel brings about the risk of bringing in new variants before some people have had the chance to receive any protection and you have an issue. 

As i have mentioned before, there is a general point of civil order as well. People are happy to wait for their vaccine now. if it become clear that getting a jab in the next few weeks would allow families to head abroad in the summer, do you not think that this may impact on people being willing to wait patiently.


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## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			I’m not sure I understand all this ‘if they get to do something that I’m not allowed to do then I have carte blanche to break the rules’ attitude. From about September last year onwards some parts of the country were allowed to go to the pub or restaurant etc. whilst other neighbouring areas were not allowed. This was irritating but comprehensible- a sort of postcode lottery that had quite an effect on quality of life. We couldn’t visit parents as they were in Tier 4, if they lived in a slightly different area it would have been fine. This whole time there has been ‘unfairness’, this may just be the last part.
Personally I would not want any vaccine passports issued before everyone has had the opportunity to have one, but someone older than me going to Cyprus in June should’t be an excuse to break guidelines that might end up harming someone.
		
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A reasonable point. 

My rationale (so not right or wrong) I understood the postcode lottery, contain where you can for the benefit of the majority.

I've less chance of taking a hospital bed than a double jabbed senior.  After a year, I'm fatigued. I can call meetings anywhere in the world to get out of the country. I haven't. If seniors were allowed free reign to go where they please, whilst the majority that lost so much to protect them isn't allowed. It undermines the whole message to protect those most at risk.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Nor do I and I do fear for what may happen in relation to people politely waiting for a vaccination when it becomes clear that people will not be able to go on their summer holiday this year whilst the older couple next door are off on the next flight meanwhile something like 90% of UK holiday places are booked for this year already and prices are skyrocketing.
		
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Are the prices "skyrocketing"... The cost for my week in May is compatible with similar holidays I took in 2019... My lad has booked the same holidays he had cancelled last year during school hols [so peak]... The camping week was an additional tenner and a week away at a holiday camp was twenty-five...


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Are the prices "skyrocketing"... The cost for my week in May is compatible with similar holidays I took in 2019... My lad has booked the same holidays he had cancelled last year during school hols [so peak]... The camping week was an additional tenner and a week away at a holiday camp was twenty-five...
		
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Only going by local reports. May be wrong, not booked anywhere personally as waiting until later in the year when I can hopefully get away somewhere exotic.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Only going by local reports. May be wrong, not booked anywhere personally as waiting until later in the year when I can hopefully get away somewhere exotic.
		
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Going abroad could well be much dearer... I can see the cost of air travel potentially rising above what we've become used to...


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Are the prices "skyrocketing"... The cost for my week in May is compatible with similar holidays I took in 2019... My lad has booked the same holidays he had cancelled last year during school hols [so peak]... The camping week was an additional tenner and a week away at a holiday camp was twenty-five...
		
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Coincidentally, just seen this on the BBC Website

With holidays in England being given the go-ahead from as soon as 12 April, many Britons are planning staycations this year. However, a surge in interest means prices appear to be going up, research suggests.
Under Boris Johnson's road map for easing lockdown restrictions, people could potentially be permitted to stay in self-contained accommodation such as holiday lets next month.
According to analysis by consumer group Which?, prices could be an average of 35% higher this summer compared with last year.
Prices are said to be up in 10 of the UK's most visited beach destinations, including St Ives, Whitby, Llandudno and Brighton.


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Going abroad could well be much dearer... I can see the cost of air travel potentially rising above what we've become used to...
		
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I think much will depend on whether some countries reliant on tourism are going to look to subsidise some of the cost to bring back confidence.


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## D-S (Mar 5, 2021)

I’m waiting patiently for all the family to have the jab, if a few seniors go to Cyprus or not really has no bearing on my life at all - you could argue that better to get them away sooner rather than later to prevent a mad rush, high prices and full hotels and flights etc. We‘re all in this together but I want to go abroad only when it is safe and sensible for everyone going with me to do so - waiting a few weeks is neither here nor there and certainly won’t make me think that I would be happy to break guidelines and laws in future. 
I also know of a couple of friends daughters in their late 20’s and early 30’s who have had debilitating problems with long COVID and so the thought of people endangering their own health by not following guidance because some elderly folks have gone to Cyprus just seems bizarre.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Coincidentally, just seen this on the BBC Website

With holidays in England being given the go-ahead from as soon as 12 April, many Britons are planning staycations this year. However, a surge in interest means prices appear to be going up, research suggests.
Under Boris Johnson's road map for easing lockdown restrictions, people could potentially be permitted to stay in self-contained accommodation such as holiday lets next month.
According to analysis by consumer group Which?, prices could be an average of 35% higher this summer compared with last year.
Prices are said to be up in 10 of the UK's most visited beach destinations, including St Ives, Whitby, Llandudno and Brighton.
		
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I've just checked the accommodation I had last year for the same week this year it's about 10% up plus a booking fee which we didn't incur last year as it was a last minute deal... And, if the prices for what I've booked for Whitby, in May, had been a third up we wouldn't be going... As with everything shopping around is key...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 5, 2021)

First jag tomorrow.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			A reasonable point.

My rationale (so not right or wrong) I understood the postcode lottery, contain where you can for the benefit of the majority.

I've less chance of taking a hospital bed than a double jabbed senior.  After a year, I'm fatigued. I can call meetings anywhere in the world to get out of the country. I haven't. If seniors were allowed free reign to go where they please, whilst the majority that lost so much to protect them isn't allowed. It undermines the whole message to protect those most at risk.
		
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Why are you so age divisive, I'm sure that if the boot was on the other foot most older people would be prepared to toe the line for younger people.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			First jag tomorrow.
		
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As long as it's not two jags 🙂


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not got a problem with Cyprus. What I do have issues with is that the older generation were all about 'we are in this together' when young people with a low risk of issues were locking down to protect them. Now it is 'I'm all right Jack, i am off on my Summer holidays whilst all you people who gave up a year of their lives to protect me are stuck at home'. As I have said before, people are waiting patiently for their jab, can you really see all those selfish individuals who were hoarding food and toilet rolls during lockdown 1 being so calm and understanding if it is announced that they cannot go on holiday this year until they have had both jabs.
		
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Are they all really saying that, really!
I know a lot of older people ,being older myself, and I don't know anyone with that type of attitude.  Where exactly do you get this information from.  Most older people I know would do anything they could for their children and grandchildren and don't have this 'Sod you mate, I'm in the lifeboat' attitude.


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Are they all really saying that, really!
I know a lot of older people ,being older myself, and I don't know anyone with that type of attitude.  Where exactly do you get this information from.  Most older people I know would do anything they could for their children and grandchildren and don't have this 'Sod you mate, I'm in the lifeboat' attitude.
		
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Again, too literal. That is how you could easily interpret people going off on holiday whilst others remained under a degree of national lock down restriction and lacking the benefit of having even had their first jab. Yes, my wording is intended as a typographical caricature in the same way I allude to toilet roll hoarders storming vaccination points so as they can get 2 weeks on the costas. Little bit of hyperbole to make a point, if we are all in this together, we all come out of this together and that includes going abroad on holiday.


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## Crazyface (Mar 5, 2021)

So, my mum came round for dinner yesterday as she usually does and she told us of a conversation she had had that afternoon with a friend of hers. The lady in question said that she'd had her first jab and now was ok to do and go wherever she wanted as it had said so on the TV!!!!!!!! My mum argued against her (due to us instilling what was right and wrong in to her regarding the jab etc) but the lady was having none of it. Where there's one, there's another one. 

God knows where this lady has heard this rubbish ( I think she's misunderstood what was said) but it might explain why the old are out and about EVERYWHERE. The supermarket was rammed this afternoon!!!

I'm sick to death of all this.


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## Old Skier (Mar 5, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			So, my mum came round for dinner yesterday as she usually does and she told us of a conversation she had had that afternoon with a friend of hers. The lady in question said that she'd had her first jab and now was ok to do and go wherever she wanted as it had said so on the TV!!!!!!!! My mum argued against her (due to us instilling what was right and wrong in to her regarding the jab etc) but the lady was having none of it. Where there's one, there's another one.

God knows where this lady has heard this rubbish ( I think she's misunderstood what was said) but it might explain why the old are out and about EVERYWHERE. The supermarket was rammed this afternoon!!!

I'm sick to death of all this.
		
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Supermarkets are rammed with people who dont seems to be able to shop on their own. Why does it take two people to push a trolley. 

Declaration of Interest (or disinterest)- I have no interest in shopping of any kind.


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## jim8flog (Mar 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not sure I'm too happy about this twice weekly testing at schools. Is it really any good for their health having a swab shoved up their nose that often? I'm actually quite concerned for my two, I obviously want them back in school asap but at what cost to their health going forward? If they want this kind of testing regime they really should be proritising spit tests for school children.
		
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Given what most children shove up their noses most of the  time a swap is quite small.

Edited just seen all the similar comments.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Again, too literal. That is how you could easily interpret people going off on holiday whilst others remained under a degree of national lock down restriction and lacking the benefit of having even had their first jab. Yes, my wording is intended as a typographical caricature in the same way I allude to toilet roll hoarders storming vaccination points so as they can get 2 weeks on the costas. Little bit of hyperbole to make a point, if we are all in this together, we all come out of this together and that includes going abroad on holiday.
		
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No one is storming the vaccination points to go on holiday, are they? They are going by invitation.

Regarding holidays. Who can go to the Costas will be in the hands of the Costas.  Do you suggest that if someone not vaccinated is denied then someone vaccinated should deny.  The lockdown for all wasn't really to protect only the elderly, lots of people of working age have been struck down or harmed by Covid.  

Would I be upset if someone was able to get a holiday abroad before me due to earlier vaccination, No, not at all.


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## GB72 (Mar 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No one is storming the vaccination points to go on holiday, are they? They are going by invitation.

Regarding holidays. Who can go to the Costas will be in the hands of the Costas.  Do you suggest that if someone not vaccinated is denied then someone vaccinated should deny.  The lockdown for all wasn't really to protect only the elderly, lots of people of working age have been struck down or harmed by Covid. 

Would I be upset if someone was able to get a holiday abroad before me due to earlier vaccination, No, not at all.
		
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Again, hyperbole used to make a point. The country has its fair share of selfish people who would, I suspect, not take too kindly to having to wait several months to go on holiday when others can go sooner. 

Personally, yes I think that non essential international travel should be in hold until it is an option for all just to keep a degree of unity rather than any personal outrage that someone can go and I cannot (I go in November and outside of the main holiday periods so really no impact on me at all)


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 5, 2021)

Personally I would say to let the vaccinated go off on their holidays as soon as possible. Free up space later in the year for those who haven't been jabbed yet rather than everyone wanting to go at the same time and watching the prices go through the roof. The alternative is for the government to ban all foreign holidays and then pour millions of pounds more of our money into propping up the holiday industry until everyone has had both their jabs. I'd rather they open up and not spend those millions.


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## Billysboots (Mar 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Again, hyperbole used to make a point. The country has its fair share of selfish people who would, I suspect, not take too kindly to having to wait several months to go on holiday when others can go sooner.

*Personally, yes I think that non essential international travel should be in hold until it is an option for all just to keep a degree of unity* rather than any personal outrage that someone can go and I cannot (I go in November and outside of the main holiday periods so really no impact on me at all)
		
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My only issue with that is a travel industry which is on its knees. We can’t afford to bar foreign travel until everyone is able to go simply because it’s the equitable thing to do.


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## Hobbit (Mar 5, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My only issue with that is a travel industry which is on its knees. We can’t afford to bar foreign travel until everyone is able to go simply because it’s the equitable thing to do.
		
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Not so long ago some people were saying open up the pubs, lets us out. Now they're saying no one should go on holiday till we've all had the jab. Selfish?

The unemployed figures for Spain were issued today. Over 4,000,000 million unemployed - the population is 46m. An awful lots of Spain is agriculture and tourism. 18 million Brits visited in 2019.

Providing the risk is balanced, the country desperately needs the visitors. If it doesn't get the visitors there'll not be much left to visit. There's bars and restaurants closing here, some have been around for years...


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## 4LEX (Mar 5, 2021)

Vaccine passport for bars, clubs, festivals and travel should be in place once every adult has been offered it. For the simple reason it'll be much safer, stop the spread and obviously be brilliant seeing the anti vaxxers living in misery for a few years, with no one to blame but themselves.

Personally feel the over 65's should be allowed to travel ASAP as no one younger can really understand the fear they've been living in for the past year. I'm not bothered about travelling myself, I just want to appreciate the small things like visiting family in a care home with no video calls, meeting mates for a BBQ, random night outs and getting back to normal in this country. This country has so many beautiful spots, give me normality and holidays in St Ives, the Lakes, Peaks, Scotland, Devon and the Cotswolds over some cheap sun in Spain or Greece


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 5, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My only issue with that is *a travel industry which is on its knees*. We can’t afford to bar foreign travel until everyone is able to go simply because it’s the equitable thing to do.
		
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Hobbit said:



			Not so long ago some people were saying open up the pubs, lets us out. Now they're saying no one should go on holiday till we've all had the jab. Selfish?

The unemployed figures for Spain were issued today. Over 4,000,000 million unemployed - the population is 46m. An awful lots of Spain is agriculture and tourism. 18 million Brits visited in 2019.

Providing the risk is balanced, *the country desperately needs the visitors*. If it doesn't get the visitors there'll not be much left to visit. There's bars and restaurants closing here, some have been around for years...
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.  As long as those travelling are doing so in accordance with their own Government's guidelines where is the problem?

Lock down all those who currently could go, there won't be a travel industry left when everyone can go.  Or if there is, demand & prices go through the roof when everyone can go & the youngsters still lose out.  Let the older ones go now, keep the industry going & the younger ones can go later; where's the problem?

As for locking the older generation down now because "we were all in it together" earlier, I seem to remember plenty of examples of raves and similar where the younger generation decided that "we are all in it together" didn't apply to them, so I don't see why it should be forced on those who now legitimately can travel.


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## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			As for locking the older generation down now because "we were all in it together" earlier, I seem to remember plenty of examples of raves and similar where the younger generation decided that "we are all in it together" didn't apply to them, so I don't see why it should be forced on those who now legitimately can travel.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of examples of people from every demographic breaking the rules. 

I'm unsure if you can still transmit the infection after the jabs. But if you can, I have less risk of taking up a hospital bed than a double vacced senior. Why should they get priority?


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Lots of examples of people from every demographic breaking the rules.

I'm unsure if you can still transmit the infection after the jabs. But if you can, I have less risk of taking up a hospital bed than a double vacced senior. *Why should they get priority?*

Click to expand...

Why shouldn't they? They have been vaccinated first because they represent a greater risk to the NHS; they have benefitted from risk management.  And because they will meet the rules in Cyprus and you won't they get priority to holiday abroad; they have benefitted from foreign government policy.  They have done nothing wrong or underhand. 

It's life; sometimes it works in your favour, sometimes it doesn't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 5, 2021)

My wife is very distressed this evening reflecting on how unfair it is on her mum that she can’t be with her mum tonight when her mum needs her - her mum having lost her brother today after losing her sister seven weeks ago.  And what makes her more upset is how we are still in this mess - that so many for their own selfish reasons and mostly pretty me-me reasons look to bend and break the rules - indeed how it seems that everywhere we look there are individuals breaking the rules for reasons they justify but they are still rule breaking and basically being selfish and disrespectful of those sticking to the rules despite how distressing doing so means.

Meanwhile my wife and I and her mum stick to the rules - and it so upsetting for us all because so many seem to think they are ok to do what they want - for their own selfish reasons. Not good.  So do we just say ‘sod it’, as so many seem to be doing whatever they want then we’re just going to act as them - break the rules if that is what‘s required. Because when your level of respect for those who are setting the rules is not great the feeling to tell them them where to go with their rules as so many seem to be doing is great.  I’m sorry that that is verging on political,I hope it is still the right side, and I do hope it doesn’t cause issues, but my wife’s distress and anger is very deep this evening and it is very difficult to do what someone asks when in doing so the pain is great and you do not respect - in fact have no respect whatsoever - for the people telling you what to do...🙁

I am lost on what to say to my wife this evening...

[edit] I will redact any content of the above that is deemed too near the P - I hope that’s not required as it is all part of what what is so badly impacting my wife and what is causing her anger and upset.

.


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## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why shouldn't they? They have been vaccinated first because they represent a greater risk to the NHS; they have benefitted from risk management.  And because they will meet the rules in Cyprus and you won't they get priority to holiday abroad; they have benefitted from foreign government policy.  They have done nothing wrong or underhand.

It's life; sometimes it works in your favour, sometimes it doesn't.
		
Click to expand...

They still possess a greater risk to the NHS than I do, an unvaccinated 29 year old.


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## 4LEX (Mar 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Lots of examples of people from every demographic breaking the rules.

I'm unsure if you can still transmit the infection after the jabs. But if you can, I have less risk of taking up a hospital bed than a double vacced senior. Why should they get priority?
		
Click to expand...

The data shows a 65-70% reduction in transmission.

This isn't about hospital beds now, it's about reducing infection to fend off mutations.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			They still possess a greater risk to the NHS than I do, an unvaccinated 29 year old.
		
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How do you work that out?


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## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife is very distressed this evening reflecting on how unfair it is on her mum that she can’t be with her mum tonight when her mum needs her - her mum having lost her brother today after losing her sister seven weeks ago.  And what makes her more upset is how we are still in this mess - that so many for their own selfish reasons and mostly pretty me-me reasons look to bend and break the rules - indeed how it seems that everywhere we look there are individuals breaking the rules for reasons they justify but they are still rule breaking and basically being selfish and disrespectful of those sticking to the rules despite how distressing doing so means.

Meanwhile my wife and I and her mum stick to the rules - and it so upsetting for us all because so many seem to think they are ok to do what they want - for their own selfish reasons. Not good.  So do we just say ‘sod it’, as so many seem to be doing whatever they want then we’re just going to act as them - break the rules if that is what‘s required. Because when your level of respect for those who are setting the rules is not great the feeling to tell them them where to go with their rules as so many seem to be doing is great.  I’m sorry that that is verging on political, and I do hope it doesn’t cause issues, but my wife’s distress and anger is very deep this evening and it is very difficult to do what someone asks when in doing so the pain is great and you do not respect - in fact have no respect whatsoever - for the people telling you what to do...🙁

I am lost on what to say to my wife this evening...

.
		
Click to expand...


Is there space for your wife to stay? 

If you and your wife isolate now - since you last went out. Then you can visit and isolate again for 10 days there. Not within rules, but almost no chance of infecting her, or anyone else.

The rules don't account for things like this, You should weigh up your options and do what you feel is right.


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## DanFST (Mar 5, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			How do you work that out?
		
Click to expand...

Almost a years worth of data.


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## road2ruin (Mar 5, 2021)

Spoke to my mum this evening, my grandad has been put on end of life care and it would appear that it’s now just a matter of days. He’s 101yrs old, he’s had a fantastic run however its devastating to think that the last 4/5 months of his life have been spent in a room measuring 3x3m’s and it has caused a man with all his faculties, both mentally and physically, at the beginning to have finished with him being bed ridden and not knowing who or where he is. 

The silver lining is that my mum has been tested twice (she’s had the first jab) and had a negative result so has been able to go into the home to hold his hand. Whilst he’s been almost entirely asleep it means a lot to her that he’s able to have had some physical contact with her dad before the inevitable happens.


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## ExRabbit (Mar 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife is very distressed this evening reflecting on how unfair it is on her mum that she can’t be with her mum tonight when her mum needs her - her mum having lost her brother today after losing her sister seven weeks ago.  And what makes her more upset is how we are still in this mess - that so many for their own selfish reasons and mostly pretty me-me reasons look to bend and break the rules - indeed how it seems that everywhere we look there are individuals breaking the rules for reasons they justify but they are still rule breaking and basically being selfish and disrespectful of those sticking to the rules despite how distressing doing so means.

Meanwhile my wife and I and her mum stick to the rules - and it so upsetting for us all because so many seem to think they are ok to do what they want - for their own selfish reasons. Not good.  So do we just say ‘sod it’, as so many seem to be doing whatever they want then we’re just going to act as them - break the rules if that is what‘s required. Because when your level of respect for those who are setting the rules is not great the feeling to tell them them where to go with their rules as so many seem to be doing is great.  I’m sorry that that is verging on political,I hope it is still the right side, and I do hope it doesn’t cause issues, but my wife’s distress and anger is very deep this evening and it is very difficult to do what someone asks when in doing so the pain is great and you do not respect - in fact have no respect whatsoever - for the people telling you what to do...🙁

I am lost on what to say to my wife this evening...

.
		
Click to expand...

Surely you can use this exception. I am hoping it will be a way my wife can visit her parents.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

*Where and when you can meet in larger groups*

There are still circumstances in which you are allowed to meet others from outside your household, childcare or support bubble in larger groups, but this should not be for socialising and only for permitted purposes. A full list of these circumstances will be included in the regulations, and includes:

...

to provide care or assistance to someone vulnerable, or to provide respite for a carer


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2021)

It's not the relatively small number of folk breaking the the rules that's causing the problems...
It's the literally thousands going about their daily business as allowed within the rules...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 6, 2021)

Guys and girls 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/

Over 56s now in England taking bookings 

Get booking


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## larmen (Mar 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Guys and girls

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/

Over 56s now in England taking bookings

Get booking
		
Click to expand...

Was it about a week for the over 60s then? Could we do the 45s in March?


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 6, 2021)

I’m 59 and getting my first jab today 💉🙏🙏🙏😎


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## bobmac (Mar 6, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m 59 and getting my first jab today 💉🙏🙏🙏😎
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant 
Did you book it through the NHS website?


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## Imurg (Mar 6, 2021)

Just booked both of mine - next Friday and end of May..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Is there space for your wife to stay?

If you and your wife isolate now - since you last went out. Then you can visit and isolate again for 10 days there. Not within rules, but almost no chance of infecting her, or anyone else.

The rules don't account for things like this, You should weigh up your options and do what you feel is right.
		
Click to expand...

There is space; she had the first jag back in December, and she basically isolates other than an occasional shop or walk with our daughter, myself or a friend. My MiL was vaccinated more than two weeks ago, and she has hardly been out the door other than into her garden since last March.

But notwithstanding any of that, her travelling to visit and then staying a day or two with her mum and brother are simply against the rules. And the thing is that the rules actually _do_ account for such as this as it is not identified as an exceptional circumstance.  She knows what she wants to do, but knows that under the rules she knows it is not right - as so many have had to do over the last year to abide by the rules. And as said, her anger is in large part caused by seeing others do what they might well think is right for their needs, even although what they do breaks the rules.

Thankyou for your thoughts - appreciated.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			Surely you can use this exception. I am hoping it will be a way my wife can visit her parents.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

*Where and when you can meet in larger groups*

There are still circumstances in which you are allowed to meet others from outside your household, childcare or support bubble in larger groups, but this should not be for socialising and only for permitted purposes. A full list of these circumstances will be included in the regulations, and includes:

...

to provide care or assistance to someone vulnerable, or to provide respite for a carer
		
Click to expand...

thankyou for pointing me to this and I’ll see how it goes. But as mentioned, she absolutely does not want to try and read something into a rule or exception that is not there - just to justify to herself a course of action or behaviour that she in her heart knows is not allowed. She sees so much of this going on and she feels that all of that behaviour is just going to make things go on longer than they need - plus it’s disrespectful to those who have sacrificed so much over the last year by adhering strictly to the rules. Let’s see.

[edit] having now read the rules on ‘care or assistance’ (again) and bearing in mind my wife’s 64yr old brother is currently living at home with their mum, the best I can think of is if we consider that _he_ needs respite relief from caring for their mum (he is not really caring for her - more providing support services for her...but maybe..) - and on that basis my wife can go and stay over for a few days.  But it’s tenuous and not _really_ true but I suppose I can try and convince her that it _is _true and therefore a perfectly valid and legal course of action.  Because in her head it has to be.

the truth is that if she thought that everyone was thinking and acting within the rules as we are trying to do then she’d ‘stiff upper lip’ it...notwithstanding how unfair and upsetting things are and have been, perhaps especially, for the most elderly (my MiL is 90 and the youngest of the three siblings) since last March.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 6, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Just booked both of mine - next Friday and end of May..

Click to expand...

Excellent 

Turns out I woke the mother in law when I texted her to say she could book 

But that's everyone in our bubble first jabbed by march


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Brilliant
Did you book it through the NHS website?
		
Click to expand...

Got a text from the doctors surgery , clicked on the link and bingo, very straightforward 💉👍


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## D-S (Mar 6, 2021)

I’m 59 and had first jab on Thursday, 2nd one booked for end May - I was able to book last Sunday. My wife is also    59 but 8 months younger, we tried every day this week to see if she could but it said she wasn’t eligible yet, yesterday it did allow her to book so she’s getting hers next Tuesday. From that I assume they are gradually opening bookings by birth month.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2021)

D-S said:



			I’m 59 and had first jab on Thursday, 2nd one booked for end May - I was able to book last Sunday. My wife is also    59 but 8 months younger, we tried every day this week to see if she could but it said she wasn’t eligible yet, yesterday it did allow her to book so she’s getting hers next Tuesday. From that I assume they are gradually opening bookings by birth month.
		
Click to expand...

I was able to book mine this week when I reached 59, my wife is almost 21 months younger than me but was able to book at the same time.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Guys and girls

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/

Over 56s now in England taking bookings

Get booking
		
Click to expand...

Thanks - all booked for 16th March and 1st June!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Almost a years worth of data.
		
Click to expand...

None of us know how much risk we represent to the NHS; we might like to think we have an idea, based on the data, but we don't know.


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## Ethan (Mar 6, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Almost a years worth of data.
		
Click to expand...

You have no idea whether you are a risk to the NHS or not. You, personally, may have a low risk of ending up in hospital from Covid, but you could be the Typhoid Mary of Covid and have put dozens or hundreds of others in hospital or the ground.


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## Ethan (Mar 6, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m 59 and getting my first jab today 💉🙏🙏🙏😎
		
Click to expand...

Off the shelf or custom-fitted?


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## Imurg (Mar 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Off the shelf or custom-fitted?
		
Click to expand...

He'd still slice it....


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## SaintHacker (Mar 6, 2021)

Anyone over 56 can now book up down here, only 10 years to go...


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## IanM (Mar 6, 2021)

Wales is miles behind.  Over 50s getting appointments in England,  think we're still on the 70s over here.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 6, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m 59 and getting my first jab today 💉🙏🙏🙏😎
		
Click to expand...

As a moderator Phil, this can't be the first jab you've received.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2021)

IanM said:



			Wales is miles behind.  Over 50s getting appointments in England,  think we're still on the 70s over here.
		
Click to expand...


My friend, aged 68, got jabbed Tuesday... Rural Carmarthenshire...


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## Old Skier (Mar 6, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m 59 and getting my first jab today 💉🙏🙏🙏😎
		
Click to expand...

Hard paper round


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 6, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Got a text from the doctors surgery , clicked on the link and bingo, very straightforward 💉👍
		
Click to expand...


So you waited for your number to come up ……      I know.  Collecting my coat now.


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## IanM (Mar 6, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			My friend, aged 68, got jabbed Tuesday... Rural Carmarthenshire...
		
Click to expand...

Any special circumstances?  68 still a long way from the 50 Yr olds


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## MegaSteve (Mar 6, 2021)

IanM said:



			Any special circumstances?  68 still a long way from the 50 Yr olds
		
Click to expand...


Other than being a sheep botherer no...
But he did comment, in general, Wales was well behind the curve...
His brother in law aged 78 was jabbed less than a month back...


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Guys and girls

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/

Over 56s now in England taking bookings

Get booking
		
Click to expand...

Am 56. Booked for 22nd and 2nd jab in June. 1.67 miles to jab centre.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife is very distressed this evening reflecting on how unfair it is on her mum that she can’t be with her mum tonight when her mum needs her - her mum having lost her brother today after losing her sister seven weeks ago.  And what makes her more upset is how we are still in this mess - that so many for their own selfish reasons and mostly pretty me-me reasons look to bend and break the rules - indeed how it seems that everywhere we look there are individuals breaking the rules for reasons they justify but they are still rule breaking and basically being selfish and disrespectful of those sticking to the rules despite how distressing doing so means.

Meanwhile my wife and I and her mum stick to the rules - and it so upsetting for us all because so many seem to think they are ok to do what they want - for their own selfish reasons. Not good.  So do we just say ‘sod it’, as so many seem to be doing whatever they want then we’re just going to act as them - break the rules if that is what‘s required. Because when your level of respect for those who are setting the rules is not great the feeling to tell them them where to go with their rules as so many seem to be doing is great.  I’m sorry that that is verging on political,I hope it is still the right side, and I do hope it doesn’t cause issues, but my wife’s distress and anger is very deep this evening and it is very difficult to do what someone asks when in doing so the pain is great and you do not respect - in fact have no respect whatsoever - for the people telling you what to do...🙁

I am lost on what to say to my wife this evening...

[edit] I will redact any content of the above that is deemed too near the P - I hope that’s not required as it is all part of what what is so badly impacting my wife and what is causing her anger and upset.

.
		
Click to expand...

You are clearly under some pressure, and I sympathise with your family situation, but you cannot complain about people breaking the rules and then turn on to the people making the rules, as you have done. 
Your previous posts have indicated a strong support for the rules .. on the basis that they help stop the spread of the virus. I haven't seen a strong criticism of them from you , though your dislike of this government is infamous.
But it seems to me in your frustration you are lashing out.

Others have suggested that the rule does allow your wife to "care etc for her mum and give respite to her carer  ( BiL) as he may not be best able to do the best for your wife's mum. They both seem to me to need some help.
IMHO, she would not be breaking that rule earlier outlined to you, and examined by you. It is a difficult situation which I hope your family can resolve


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## D-S (Mar 6, 2021)

Wales aren’t doing too badly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55855220


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## Tashyboy (Mar 6, 2021)

Got a message off Missis T this morning re BIL has had a letter saying the NHS are giving jabs to under 60’s. So Missis T does no more than look online and books me and herself In. Got back from having a second coronavirus test and there’s a lettter for Tash To do the same.  Ave got to say I was not expecting a letter this side of April so am chuffed to bits with how quick they are getting through them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are clearly under some pressure, and I sympathise with your family situation, but you cannot complain about people breaking the rules and then turn on to the people making the rules, as you have done.
Your previous posts have indicated a strong support for the rules .. on the basis that they help stop the spread of the virus. I haven't seen a strong criticism of them from you , though your dislike of this government is infamous.
But it seems to me in your frustration you are lashing out.

Others have suggested that the rule does allow your wife to "care etc for her mum and give respite to her carer  ( BiL) as he may not be best able to do the best for your wife's mum. They both seem to me to need some help.
IMHO, she would not be breaking that rule earlier outlined to you, and examined by you. It is a difficult situation which I hope your family can resolve
		
Click to expand...

We are not turning on the people making the rules. All I am saying is that it is always easier to adhere to difficult rules that others are breaking with impunity if you respect those requiring you to adhere to them.

As it turns out my MiL has told my wife that she is ok at the moment and so not to come up at the moment, so that’s sorted, and I am not long back from having a needle stuck in my arm.  And I didn’t faint 😊


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2021)

Got a friend who lives near Andover and was able to log on and book their vaccination today, they were offered appts at IoW, Ipswich or Accrington

They’ll try again tomorrow! So much for staying local.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are not turning on the people making the rules. All I am saying is that it is always easier to adhere to difficult rules that others are breaking with impunity if you respect those requiring you to adhere to them.

As it turns out my MiL has told my wife that she is ok at the moment and so not to come up at the moment, so that’s sorted, and I am not long back from having a needle stuck in my arm.  And I didn’t faint 😊
		
Click to expand...

That's a rather unfair attitude.  Why not take up a bit of casual burglary in that case.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 6, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Got a friend who lives near Andover and was able to log on and book their vaccination today, they were offered appts at IoW, Ipswich or Accrington

They’ll try again tomorrow! So much for staying local.
		
Click to expand...

I had a similar issue but when not taking them up was offered one at my local GP.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I had a similar issue but when not taking them up was offered one at my local GP.
		
Click to expand...

They are going to try daily for closer or as you say see if their GP offers an alternative.


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## Old Skier (Mar 6, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			They are going to try daily for closer or as you say see if their GP offers an alternative.
		
Click to expand...

I would have gone for a trip to the IOW.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather unfair attitude.  Why not take up a bit of casual burglary in that case.
		
Click to expand...

We won’t break the rules despite everything...fortunately with mil at the moment we don’t need to. She gets that in truth we are not supposed to travel to be with and stay over.


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## bobmac (Mar 7, 2021)

Think of it as a gap year you spend at home, but in a few months you have to go back to work.


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## rudebhoy (Mar 7, 2021)

Glasgow today. Police escorting a few thousand football fans en route to a party in George Square.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1368621883797671938


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## rudebhoy (Mar 7, 2021)

And here's the party


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## D-S (Mar 7, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1368674091608203268


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## D-S (Mar 7, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1368678617987883013


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## patricks148 (Mar 8, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			And here's the party 
	View attachment 35474

Click to expand...

yep pretty poor TBH


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## Hobbit (Mar 8, 2021)

4 neighbours have died in the last 6 weeks. 15 friends and neighbours have had in the last 8-10 weeks. 

The area did really well in the first wave/lockdown a year ago. There were numbers we read in the news, but everything seemed remote, i.e. northern Spain, Italy and the rest of the world. Some even felt, maybe didn't grasp, that there was a bit of media hype in it.

When and where there's a hot spot it really does seem to get a grip. For example, the group of friends who went out on New Years Eve to a 'gig.' All of them got it, one of which died a few days back.


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## Robster59 (Mar 8, 2021)

I have just got the letter for my first Covid jab (62 and living in Scotland).  My missus had hers at the weekend (58 with health issues).  I drove her down and when she came out she said that it was very quiet and the person giving the jab told her a lot of people weren't turning up for their appointments.  I just don't understand it.  These are people in the higher risk category who still choose not to be vaccinated.  Part of me is saying that if they get ill and die as a result, they've only got themselves to blame.  But it's the fact they could pass it on to others indicates the selfishness of them.  Yes, I know you can still be a carrier with the vaccine, but it is less likely and anything you can do to stop the spread, I believe you have a moral duty to do.


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## patricks148 (Mar 8, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I have just got the letter for my first Covid jab (62 and living in Scotland).  My missus had hers at the weekend (58 with health issues).  I drove her down and when she came out she said that it was very quiet and the person giving the jab told her a lot of people weren't turning up for their appointments.  I just don't understand it.  These are people in the higher risk category who still choose not to be vaccinated.  Part of me is saying that if they get ill and die as a result, they've only got themselves to blame.  But it's the fact they could pass it on to others indicates the selfishness of them.  Yes, I know you can still be a carrier with the vaccine, but it is less likely and anything you can do to stop the spread, I believe you have a moral duty to do.
		
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Did you get a text invt you for an appointment?


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## rudebhoy (Mar 8, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I have just got the letter for my first Covid jab (62 and living in Scotland).  My missus had hers at the weekend (58 with health issues).  I drove her down and when she came out she said that it was very quiet and the person giving the jab told her a lot of people weren't turning up for their appointments.  I just don't understand it.  These are people in the higher risk category who still choose not to be vaccinated.  Part of me is saying that if they get ill and die as a result, they've only got themselves to blame.  But it's the fact they could pass it on to others indicates the selfishness of them.  Yes, I know you can still be a carrier with the vaccine, but it is less likely and anything you can do to stop the spread, I believe you have a moral duty to do.
		
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I thought you had to proactively make an appointment once you got the letter? That's what I had to do.

The notion of people making appointments for themselves then not turning up in large numbers doesn't make any sense to me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 8, 2021)

Vaccine booked for next Monday 😁


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## GB72 (Mar 8, 2021)

Just crossing my fingers for the next 2-3 weeks. If we can clear the hurdle of opening the schools without a dramatic increase in the numbers then I think we can all look forward to increased freedoms in accordance with the road map (especially a hair cut, I so need a hair cut), but if the numbers start climbing at a worrying level then I can see all of the steps being put back a bit.


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## Imurg (Mar 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Just crossing my fingers for the next 2-3 weeks. If we can clear the hurdle of opening the schools without a dramatic increase in the numbers then I think we can all look forward to increased freedoms in accordance with the road map (especially a hair cut, I so need a hair cut), but if the numbers start climbing at a worrying level then I can see all of the steps being put back a bit.
		
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They obviously have numbers in mind that would either confirm the relaxations or  trigger a delay..it would be interesting to know them..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			I thought you had to proactively make an appointment once you got the letter? That's what I had to do.

The notion of people making appointments for themselves then not turning up in large numbers doesn't make any sense to me.
		
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Just people.  I don't get it either as it is easy enough to cancel an appointment - even at the last minute - and if you did there's a good chance someone else will grab it.  When I had my first on Saturday I was given it 10 minutes early, so guessing there had been maybe one or two of 'no-shows'.  But that just meant I could be done early.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 8, 2021)

Maybe the group in front let you play through?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Maybe the group in front let you play through?  

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Didn't see any nervous folks or fainters sitting aside for me


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## road2ruin (Mar 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Just crossing my fingers for the next 2-3 weeks. If we can clear the hurdle of opening the schools without a dramatic increase in the numbers then I think we can all look forward to increased freedoms in accordance with the road map (especially a hair cut, I so need a hair cut), but if the numbers start climbing at a worrying level then I can see all of the steps being put back a bit.
		
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I think schools is the big one, they're obviously expecting the R number to increase however we don't know to what level will be acceptable. Assuming the easing of restrictions is confirmed for April 12th then I think/hope the remainder of the restrictions will be eased as per the timetable.


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## GB72 (Mar 8, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think schools is the big one, they're obviously expecting the R number to increase however we don't know to what level will be acceptable. Assuming the easing of restrictions is confirmed for April 12th then I think/hope the remainder of the restrictions will be eased as per the timetable.
		
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Not ideal but I guess that we may be able to take an increase in the infection rate if that does not then translate to hospitalisations and, sadly, deaths. With the kids getting tested it is bound to pick up more cases but if those are minor or asymptomatic (ignoring long covid here for ease and because it does not appear to be factored in to any other equation) then that may still leave the path open for some relaxations (I have a BBQ planned for good Friday with friends that I have not seen since mid October and so I hope so. Sadly I am the only one in the group not yet vaccinated for extra protection).


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## road2ruin (Mar 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not ideal but I guess that we may be able to take an increase in the infection rate if that does not then translate to hospitalisations and, sadly, deaths. With the kids getting tested it is bound to pick up more cases but if those are minor or asymptomatic (ignoring long covid here for ease and because it does not appear to be factored in to any other equation) then that may still leave the path open for some relaxations (*I have a BBQ planned for good Friday with friends that I have not seen since mid October and so I hope so*. Sadly I am the only one in the group not yet vaccinated for extra protection).
		
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From what I gather the relaxations on 29th March are part of step 1 so unless anything goes horrendously wrong will definitely happen so your BBQ is safe (bar the weather). It is the relaxations in mid April (Step 2) that will be put back if the numbers go above what is acceptable.


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## GB72 (Mar 8, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			From what I gather the relaxations on 29th March are part of step 1 so unless anything goes horrendously wrong will definitely happen so your BBQ is safe (bar the weather). It is the relaxations in mid April (Step 2) that will be put back if the numbers go above what is acceptable.
		
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They can keep everything else shut on 12th April, just open Barber Shops.


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## Red scorpion (Mar 8, 2021)

Envelope just arrived 27/3 for me


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## jim8flog (Mar 8, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			I thought you had to proactively make an appointment once you got the letter? That's what I had to do.

.
		
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 They were stressing this in a recent briefing.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not ideal but I guess that we may be able to take an increase in the infection rate if that does not then translate to hospitalisations and, sadly, deaths. With the kids getting tested it is bound to pick up more cases but if those are minor or asymptomatic (ignoring long covid here for ease and because it does not appear to be factored in to any other equation) then that may still leave the path open for some relaxations (I have a *BBQ planned for good Friday with* friends that I have not seen since mid October and so I hope so. Sadly I am the only one in the group not yet vaccinated for extra protection).
		
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Good Friday is still in Step one  - so is "can meet outside as two households, or can meet outside as up to 6 people from any household" . Hope that's not going to be a bother to your BBQ.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 8, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Good Friday is still in Step one  - so is "can meet outside as two households, or can meet outside as up to 6 people from any household" . Hope that's not going to be a bother to your BBQ.
		
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Can't wait for this tbh, we are a family of 5. The twins are so small but before we would have to break the rule of 6 for everyone to see my sister and her husband for a walk 

What I did was walk ahead with the twins so they had eldest then swapped with my wife 

Now can have them both as 2 houses

Plus private gardens is a winner we can go my mum's garden to meet her .. it's massive


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## road2ruin (Mar 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Can't wait for this tbh, we are a family of 5. The twins are so small but before we would have to break the rule of 6 for everyone to see my sister and her husband for a walk

What I did was walk ahead with the twins so they had eldest then swapped with my wife

Now can have them both as 2 houses

Plus private gardens is a winner we can go my mum's garden to meet her .. it's massive
		
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Same here, already got friends booked in across the Easter weekend for some alfresco dining!! Also got the folks coming down as they haven't visited our new house yet, whilst they can't see the inside at least they will be able to see the garden plus they haven't seen our daughter since September so they're looking forward to that.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 8, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Same here, already got friends booked in across the Easter weekend for some alfresco dining!! Also got the folks coming down as they haven't visited our new house yet, whilst they can't see the inside at least they will be able to see the garden plus they haven't seen our daughter since September so they're looking forward to that.
		
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Last summer I bought a gazebos for the garden visits .. best get that back out


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## GB72 (Mar 8, 2021)

The private garden is the big thing for me. From last summer my friends and I are all geared up for outside entertaining in most weathers so I am now massively hyped for some real social interaction


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## Tashyboy (Mar 8, 2021)

As we seem to be coming out of this Covid slowly, in the last 10 days there’s four lads I know who have passed away. The latest I found out an hour ago. This bloody virus still has a sting in its tail.
 stay safe everyone and RIP John aka two dogs.


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## yandabrown (Mar 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Guys and girls

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/

Over 56s now in England taking bookings

Get booking
		
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It says 55 now


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## Robster59 (Mar 8, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Did you get a text invt you for an appointment?
		
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No, it came through the post.  It's odd as my Missus went to Giffnock for hers but mine is for Barrhead which is twice as far away.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 8, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			It says 55 now 

Click to expand...

1 step closer


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## Robster59 (Mar 8, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			I thought you had to proactively make an appointment once you got the letter? That's what I had to do.

The notion of people making appointments for themselves then not turning up in large numbers doesn't make any sense to me.
		
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No, I was given a time and a place.  Although I changed it for one 2 days earlier as I couldn't make the original one.


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## SatchFan (Mar 8, 2021)

My wife has been looking forward to going out. As she's 55 I've just booked her in for her first jab. Hope she appreciates the thought.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 8, 2021)

Taking my wife to get her 2nd jag tomorrow 👍 Means that when she is able to visit her mum she will feel much safer for her mum.


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## ExRabbit (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Taking my wife to get her 2nd jag tomorrow 👍 Means that when she is able to visit her mum she will feel much safer for her mum.
		
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You both will have two Jags? Prescott will be jealous!


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## Smiffy (Mar 9, 2021)

Had my first jab at Eastbourne on Sunday. Must say, the organisation was brilliant. Everybody was so helpful and welcoming.
Felt like crap yesterday, slight temperature rise and felt a bit achey, spent most of the day sleeping and felt better by the evening. 
Feel okay now.


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## patricks148 (Mar 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			No, it came through the post.  It's odd as my Missus went to Giffnock for hers but mine is for Barrhead which is twice as far away.
		
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i had a text beck in Dec inviting me, but was sent out in error. no idea when they will get round to the over 55 here, i think they are still doing the over 60's


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## MegaSteve (Mar 9, 2021)

Oldest and youngest grandsons returned to school yesterday... Both sounded happy with a return to 'normality'... Due to the staggered resumption middle grandson doesn't start back 'til Thursday [subject to testing of course]... Big year for the oldest... 'Exams' in summer... Hopefully lockdown hasn't been too damaging... And, yes I do know it's not exams per se...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Had my first jab at Eastbourne on Sunday. Must say, the organisation was brilliant. Everybody was so helpful and welcoming.
Felt like crap yesterday, slight temperature rise and felt a bit achey, spent most of the day sleeping and felt better by the evening.
Feel okay now.
		
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Sure that wasnt more to do with the 3 bottles od rioja the night before?😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			You both will have two Jags? Prescott will be jealous!
		
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nah - I'm one jag until end may


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 9, 2021)

Just booked mine for the 21st.  First thing I did when I moved to Devon was register with a local health centre.    No way I was missing out.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2021)

On our WhatsApp group re the lads in our golf circle. One of the lads has posted his apologies in not playing or renewing his membership for the next year. He was approached a Couple of months ago to help set up the country’s first mega lab in leamington Spa. It will initially do Covid testing and then do cancer and other testings.


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## arnieboy (Mar 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Had my first jab at Eastbourne on Sunday. Must say, the organisation was brilliant. Everybody was so helpful and welcoming.
Felt like crap yesterday, slight temperature rise and felt a bit achey, spent most of the day sleeping and felt better by the evening.
Feel okay now.
		
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Was that at the Sovereign Centre?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			No, it came through the post.  It's odd as my Missus went to Giffnock for hers but mine is for Barrhead which is twice as far away.
		
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Some might cruelly suggest that Barrhead is in another universe from Giffnock


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## Robster59 (Mar 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some might cruelly suggest that Barrhead is in another universe from Giffnock 

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I'm just worried they use the right needle!


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 9, 2021)

For those yet to be done, I have heard that taking paracetamol for 48 hours (24 either side of the jab) does a good job of stopping the "feeling like crap" issue.  Don't know the why's & wherefores, if anyone with better medical knowledge can confirm or deny?


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## Smiffy (Mar 9, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			Was that at the Sovereign Centre?
		
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No, the Congress theatre.


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## Smiffy (Mar 9, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			For those yet to be done, I have heard that taking paracetamol for 48 hours (24 either side of the jab) does a good job of stopping the "feeling like crap" issue.  Don't know the why's & wherefores, if anyone with better medical knowledge can confirm or deny?
		
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A couple of ibuprofen and a lengthy kip sorted me out
🥴🥴🥴


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Have mine booked for the 23rd March. Got the text this morning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I'm just worried they use the right needle! 

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aye - you never quite know what's going off in Bawrheid.  It's not Giffnock but it's OK...


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			For those yet to be done, I have heard that taking paracetamol for 48 hours (24 either side of the jab) does a good job of stopping the "feeling like crap" issue.  Don't know the why's & wherefores, if anyone with better medical knowledge can confirm or deny?
		
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@Blue in Munich - that’s exactly what I have been told so will get them 👍


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## Rlburnside (Mar 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



@Blue in Munich - that’s exactly what I have been told so will get them 👍
		
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Popping pills is not the best answer 😂as the side affects are minimal


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## road2ruin (Mar 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Spoke to my mum this evening, my grandad has been put on end of life care and it would appear that it’s now just a matter of days. He’s 101yrs old, he’s had a fantastic run however its devastating to think that the last 4/5 months of his life have been spent in a room measuring 3x3m’s and it has caused a man with all his faculties, both mentally and physically, at the beginning to have finished with him being bed ridden and not knowing who or where he is.

The silver lining is that my mum has been tested twice (she’s had the first jab) and had a negative result so has been able to go into the home to hold his hand. Whilst he’s been almost entirely asleep it means a lot to her that he’s able to have had some physical contact with her dad before the inevitable happens.
		
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So the inevitable happened last night, at just before 11:30pm he passed away. This is not a post for condolences, it's purely to finish the story given I had put various posts up about it. In the end it happened in the best way possible given what has happened over the last 3 months or so, mum was able to be there at the end and had spent the last few days with him, actually being able to be with him rather than just near him. For her it has made a huge difference and whilst it doesn't make losing her dad any easier it would have been a whole lot worse had it happened through a Perspex screen which I know a lot of others have had (and worse). I'm not sure how aware he was of her presence but you'd like to think that somewhere there was part of him who would have been felt that she was there. 

He died aged 101yrs (and 6 months), would have been one of the final people alive (I think) who flew Spitfires in WWII. He ran a pub, loved cricket and was still drinking Guinness and playing Pétanque into his 90's in the local pub league. In the end it's a relief for the family, particularly mum and he's now at peace. He didn't die of Covid but he was definitely a victim of it.


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## DanFST (Mar 9, 2021)

Hell of an innings. 

Will have a glass this evening.


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## road2ruin (Mar 9, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Hell of an innings.

Will have a glass this evening.
		
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100%. He was the youngest 99 year old I've ever seen, the last couple of years caught up with him however I think you're allowed that! If I'm even half as mobile and social at that age I'll be pleased!!


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## arnieboy (Mar 9, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			No, the Congress theatre.
		
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Both very efficient.


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## NearHull (Mar 9, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Popping pills is not the best answer 😂as the side affects are minimal
		
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My wife and I both took paracetamol on the day before and the day after receiving our vaccinations on the advise of a neighbour paramedic.  Neither of us experienced any issues.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2021)

NearHull said:



			My wife and I both took paracetamol on the day before and the day after receiving our vaccinations on the advise of a neighbour paramedic.  Neither of us experienced any issues.
		
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First thing morning after, I was a little more tired than normal; had a little sweat; a bit of a headache and a during the day a brief doze of the skitters...(too much information) - all recognised symptoms for the vaccination doing it's doing.  Took two lots of paracetamol and it was all cleared in by late afternoon.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So the inevitable happened last night, at just before 11:30pm he passed away. This is not a post for condolences, it's purely to finish the story given I had put various posts up about it. In the end it happened in the best way possible given what has happened over the last 3 months or so, mum was able to be there at the end and had spent the last few days with him, actually being able to be with him rather than just near him. For her it has made a huge difference and whilst it doesn't make losing her dad any easier it would have been a whole lot worse had it happened through a Perspex screen which I know a lot of others have had (and worse). I'm not sure how aware he was of her presence but you'd like to think that somewhere there was part of him who would have been felt that she was there.

He died aged 101yrs (and 6 months), would have been one of the final people alive (I think) who flew Spitfires in WWII. He ran a pub, loved cricket and was still drinking Guinness and playing Pétanque into his 90's in the local pub league. In the end it's a relief for the family, particularly mum and he's now at peace. He didn't die of Covid but he was definitely a victim of it.
		
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Sorry for your loss. Thats a great knock though, well batted Sir 👏👏


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## Rlburnside (Mar 9, 2021)

NearHull said:



			My wife and I both took paracetamol on the day before and the day after receiving our vaccinations on the advise of a neighbour paramedic.  Neither of us experienced any issues.
		
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Wife and I both had jabs both of us were a touch more tired than normal but it wasn’t enough to pop a pill 👍

I suppose you will never know if the pills helped as you might have not felt any affects anyway, hedge your bets if you don’t mind taking tablets 👍


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## banjofred (Mar 9, 2021)

Had the jab (AZ) about 4:15 in the afternoon last Thursday. Woke up about 5am feeling a bit funny. Felt pretty off until about 11am that next morning. Nothing nasty....but if a Paracetamol will make things a better, I'll pop them like candy next time. As the ol' saying goes, *it's not likely to make it worse*.


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## Rlburnside (Mar 9, 2021)

banjofred said:



			Had the jab (AZ) about 4:15 in the afternoon last Thursday. Woke up about 5am feeling a bit funny. Felt pretty off until about 11am that next morning. Nothing nasty....but if a Paracetamol will make things a better, I'll pop them like candy next time. As the ol' saying goes, *it's not likely to make it worse*.
		
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It’s like any tablet you take the more you take the less effective they are over the long run,antibiotics are a prime example. 

For me the symptoms  from the COVID jab were minimal and not bad enough to take a pill , I try to take them when I really feel I need them that way I think they are more effective.


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			It’s like any tablet you take the more you take the less effective they are over the long run,antibiotics are a prime example.

For me the symptoms  from the COVID jab were minimal and not bad enough to take a pill , I try to take them when I really feel I need them that way I think they are more effective.
		
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Some people do react more to vaccinations though, so for some, it may help offset some nastiness, for others, there are no ill effects at all.

I guess it also depends which jab you get. The Pfizer one seems to have less issues.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So the inevitable happened last night, at just before 11:30pm he passed away. This is not a post for condolences, it's purely to finish the story given I had put various posts up about it. In the end it happened in the best way possible given what has happened over the last 3 months or so, mum was able to be there at the end and had spent the last few days with him, actually being able to be with him rather than just near him. For her it has made a huge difference and whilst it doesn't make losing her dad any easier it would have been a whole lot worse had it happened through a Perspex screen which I know a lot of others have had (and worse). I'm not sure how aware he was of her presence but you'd like to think that somewhere there was part of him who would have been felt that she was there.

He died aged 101yrs (and 6 months), would have been one of the final people alive (I think) who flew Spitfires in WWII. He ran a pub, loved cricket and was still drinking Guinness and playing Pétanque into his 90's in the local pub league. In the end it's a relief for the family, particularly mum and he's now at peace. He didn't die of Covid but he was definitely a victim of it.
		
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Respect to your Grandad and condolences to your family x


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So the inevitable happened last night, at just before 11:30pm he passed away. This is not a post for condolences, it's purely to finish the story given I had put various posts up about it. In the end it happened in the best way possible given what has happened over the last 3 months or so, mum was able to be there at the end and had spent the last few days with him, actually being able to be with him rather than just near him. For her it has made a huge difference and whilst it doesn't make losing her dad any easier it would have been a whole lot worse had it happened through a Perspex screen which I know a lot of others have had (and worse). I'm not sure how aware he was of her presence but you'd like to think that somewhere there was part of him who would have been felt that she was there.

He died aged 101yrs (and 6 months), would have been one of the final people alive (I think) who flew Spitfires in WWII. He ran a pub, loved cricket and was still drinking Guinness and playing Pétanque into his 90's in the local pub league. In the end it's a relief for the family, particularly mum and he's now at peace. He didn't die of Covid but he was definitely a victim of it.
		
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A great achievement for a cricket fan to get to hold his bat up to the pavilion. Condolences to all and time to remember a life well lived.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So the inevitable happened last night, at just before 11:30pm he passed away. This is not a post for condolences, it's purely to finish the story given I had put various posts up about it. In the end it happened in the best way possible given what has happened over the last 3 months or so, mum was able to be there at the end and had spent the last few days with him, actually being able to be with him rather than just near him. For her it has made a huge difference and whilst it doesn't make losing her dad any easier it would have been a whole lot worse had it happened through a Perspex screen which I know a lot of others have had (and worse). I'm not sure how aware he was of her presence but you'd like to think that somewhere there was part of him who would have been felt that she was there.

He died aged 101yrs (and 6 months), would have been one of the final people alive (I think) who flew Spitfires in WWII. He ran a pub, loved cricket and was still drinking Guinness and playing Pétanque into his 90's in the local pub league. In the end it's a relief for the family, particularly mum and he's now at peace. He didn't die of Covid but he was definitely a victim of it.
		
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What a wonderful life he must have led and worthy of raising a glass to celebrate the life he led 🥃


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 9, 2021)

Not impressed with online booking for the jab. I can get one in a couple of weeks at a local centre but the nearest it comes up with for second jab is Lancaster which it tells me is 50 miles away. It is actually 84 miles away so I will wait for a letter and get them both done locally.


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## D-S (Mar 9, 2021)

I guess it depends how close you are to population centres. We are about 10 miles outside Bristol and we had about 15 different options for 1st and 2nd jabs, I had mine done in Boots at the local large Mall and my wife had hers done at Ashton Gate where though enormous was super efficient - both our 2nd jabs booked there.


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## Imurg (Mar 9, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Not impressed with online booking for the jab. I can get one in a couple of weeks at a local centre but the nearest it comes up with for second jab is Lancaster which it tells me is 50 miles away. It is actually 84 miles away so I will wait for a letter and get them both done locally.
		
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I booked mine through the website on Saturday morning
Got the letter today so you may get yours by the weekend..


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So the inevitable happened last night, at just before 11:30pm he passed away. This is not a post for condolences, it's purely to finish the story given I had put various posts up about it. In the end it happened in the best way possible given what has happened over the last 3 months or so, mum was able to be there at the end and had spent the last few days with him, actually being able to be with him rather than just near him. For her it has made a huge difference and whilst it doesn't make losing her dad any easier it would have been a whole lot worse had it happened through a Perspex screen which I know a lot of others have had (and worse). I'm not sure how aware he was of her presence but you'd like to think that somewhere there was part of him who would have been felt that she was there.

He died aged 101yrs (and 6 months), would have been one of the final people alive (I think) who flew Spitfires in WWII. He ran a pub, loved cricket and was still drinking Guinness and playing Pétanque into his 90's in the local pub league. In the end it's a relief for the family, particularly mum and he's now at peace. He didn't die of Covid but he was definitely a victim of it.
		
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Fantastic flying spitfires your right not many left.
Try and remember the first 100 yrs the last one wasn’t a good one.
Condolences to your family.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 9, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I booked mine through the website on Saturday morning
Got the letter today so you may get yours by the weekend..
		
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Lets hope so


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## backwoodsman (Mar 9, 2021)

Reading people's tales, can't help but think I was lucky with the jab. Found out I was eligible on a Wednesday, was able to book a slot for the next day, and only place offered was 10 minutes walk away. I'm sure it's a bummer for those who are not finding it so straightforward.


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## Old Skier (Mar 9, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just booked mine for the 21st.  First thing I did when I moved to Devon was register with a local health centre.    No way I was missing out.
		
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Where are you playing


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2021)

Well after many months of no lockdown (but borders still mostly closed with mandated quarantine) there's been a cluster of 10 cases over the last couple of days stemming from an undisclosed source resulting in a total shutdown starting this morning, for the rest of March

No exercise, no pet walking, no shopping until your alphabetized day comes round, no public transport which doesn't really matter because there's no going out to work; in fact no leaving home unless you need medical assistance (or 10grand fine) Everything is closed down tight
(this week would've seen one of the years biggest religious festivals taking place so I guess that's also played a part in the rapid course of action) 

Lets hope we deal with this as quickly as the measures suggest...


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## Hobbit (Mar 10, 2021)

Junta de Andalusia have done an about turn on only those on the Spanish health system will get the jab. The other regions, by example, and the national health council pressured the Junta at Monday’s meeting to change the policy.

Result for all foreign nationals, like us, who didn’t qualify because we are below pensionable age.


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## Smiffy (Mar 10, 2021)

I initially got a letter inviting me for the jab about a fortnight ago. I looked online to book but it was only offering Eastbourne as my nearest centre. I knew jabs were also being done more local than that, which I would have preferred, the letter stated that I could wait to hear from my GP who would offer a local appointment. I didn't hear anything so decided to go to Eastbourne in the end anyway. My main concern was parking, but there was plenty as I had it done on a Sunday.


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## Ethan (Mar 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Junta de Andalusia have done an about turn on only those on the Spanish health system will get the jab. The other regions, by example, and the national health council pressured the Junta at Monday’s meeting to change the policy.

Result for all foreign nationals, like us, who didn’t qualify because we are below pensionable age.
		
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They had no choice. Endemic virus is a risk whether it comes from a national or an alien.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 10, 2021)

Slab said:



			Well after many months of no lockdown (but borders still mostly closed with mandated quarantine) there's been a cluster of 10 cases over the last couple of days stemming from an undisclosed source resulting in a total shutdown starting this morning, for the rest of March

No exercise, no pet walking, no shopping until your alphabetized day comes round, no public transport which doesn't really matter because there's no going out to work; in fact no leaving home unless you need medical assistance (or 10grand fine) Everything is closed down tight
(this week would've seen one of the years biggest religious festivals taking place so I guess that's also played a part in the rapid course of action) 

Lets hope we deal with this as quickly as the measures suggest...
		
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Hopefully the cluster is not too local too you?  Rather a bummer for the island though!  I would say "stay safe" but that seems rather unnecessary given that you're not allowed outside your front door. "Stay sane" seems better.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Junta de Andalusia have done an about turn on only those on the Spanish health system will get the jab. The other regions, by example, and the national health council pressured the Junta at Monday’s meeting to change the policy.

Result for all foreign nationals, like us, who didn’t qualify because we are below pensionable age.
		
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Good result - and the only sensible outcome. After all, just because you're not Spanish doesnt put you  any less at risk, or indeed, make you any less of a risk. Original decision was barmy.


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## banjofred (Mar 10, 2021)

Slab said:



			Well after many months of no lockdown (but borders still mostly closed with mandated quarantine) there's been a cluster of 10 cases over the last couple of days stemming from an undisclosed source resulting in a total shutdown starting this morning, for the rest of March

No exercise, no pet walking, no shopping until your alphabetized day comes round, no public transport which doesn't really matter because there's no going out to work; in fact no leaving home unless you need medical assistance (or 10grand fine) Everything is closed down tight
(this week would've seen one of the years biggest religious festivals taking place so I guess that's also played a part in the rapid course of action) 

Lets hope we deal with this as quickly as the measures suggest...
		
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Doesn't this mean somebody will have to remove the "hit" request.....? I'd hate to have a person "taken out" for no good reason....


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## SaintHacker (Mar 10, 2021)

Its obvious this thing isnt ever going away no matter what we do. We've done what we've been asked for over a year now. My wife hasn't huhged her parents, they havent hugged their grandchildren. I have hardly seen my eldest son and he's back off to the falklands soon so that's another six months until he can finally buy me a pint. My jobs gone, my future plans are all up in the air. But im healthy and so is my family so that's one thing to be grateful for. The elderly and vulnerable arw now protected so lets just admit we're never going to fully get rid of this and get on with our lives. When do we reach the point that the collateral damage from all this constant locking/unlocking outweighs the damage done by the virus itself? In my opinion we're already there...


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## GB72 (Mar 10, 2021)

My frustration is somewhat irrational, will be seen as over the top by some and unfair by others but cannot help how my mind works. We are told that opening everything up is to wait until we see the impact of the kids going back to school. Well, the kids are back at school and that appears to be the end of their covid restrictions. They are out in large groups at lunchtime, they are out in groups after school there is no evidence of any form of social distancing and rule compliance. Must have been 40 plus kids at the skate park last night when I walked past at 6.00. I am sorry but they should be treated exactly the same as people who are going to work. You go to work/school, you follow the rules there, you follow the rules at lunchtime and you go home straight after. Just not happening around my area and we are dependent on kids not causing such a spike that the next steps in our lockdown easing are delayed.


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## DanFST (Mar 10, 2021)

GB72 said:



			My frustration is somewhat irrational, will be seen as over the top by some and unfair by others but cannot help how my mind works. We are told that opening everything up is to wait until we see the impact of the kids going back to school. Well, the kids are back at school and that appears to be the end of their covid restrictions. They are out in large groups at lunchtime, they are out in groups after school there is no evidence of any form of social distancing and rule compliance. Must have been 40 plus kids at the skate park last night when I walked past at 6.00. I am sorry but they should be treated exactly the same as people who are going to work. You go to work/school, you follow the rules there, you follow the rules at lunchtime and you go home straight after. Just not happening around my area and we are dependent on kids not causing such a spike that the next steps in our lockdown easing are delayed.
		
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I must say I agree. 

Not sure it's irrational, but perhaps selfish. Reasonable adults are much less likely to spread in a retail/entertainment venue environment than in a school. If it spreads rapidly again, which it looks like it will, everything delayed. 

Haven't the peaks and troughs followed exactly when schools were back?


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## GB72 (Mar 10, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I must say I agree.

Not sure it's irrational, but perhaps selfish. Reasonable adults are much less likely to spread in a retail/entertainment venue environment than in a school. If it spreads rapidly again, which it looks like it will, everything delayed.

Haven't the peaks and troughs followed exactly when schools were back?
		
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I think that there are other factors certainly but we were doing OK numbers wise last year with pretty much everything open until the schools went back. I am being selfish, I admit. I don't have kids, not going to have kids and so there is a degree of frustration that they hold an degree of my freedom in their hands and there is simply no compliance going on outside of the school and certainly, in my area anyway, kids are not going home after school straight away. I just feel that if 30-40 adults met up in a venue there would be police and fines (as there have been) but 30-40 teenagers meeting every night at the local skate park seems to be perfectly acceptable.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2021)

Interesting to hear in Scotland 19% of 40 to 60 year olds have already had the vaccine due to other medical conditions or being health/key workers.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 10, 2021)

Patience please, fellas. Whilst it is true that Covid won't be eradicated, the programme for us to come out of this spike ,and control it ,has been set out.
The kids have gone back to school, and in that environment the mixing amongst them will have occurred there, as much as it will when they play together outside school.
That way of life for the kids is normal and , if we are to live with this Covid, then it has to be accommodated. ( As will other normslities when they resume)
The return to school has been chosen as the first of these normalities, and it will be monitored over 5 weeks to see if the result allows there to be an acceptable risk in continuing the easement of restrictions.
And then there will be the next stages of easements and assessments.
I'm not sure from what you've written that you understand that strategy.
Maybe you do, but nevertheless think it is wrong. 
I think the strategy is based on the reasonable assumption that vaccinations will keep infections and ,more importantly , serious health issues and deaths, well controlled ,and that the situation will improve in that respect ( as a result of more vaccinations etc) and go along hand in hand with more easements towards eventual normality.
But it isn't right to just "open the gates fully and hope all is ok".
It's this latter idea I fear you are favouring in your posts, born of impatience.
It is difficult but there is an end in sight, I believe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting to hear in Scotland 19% of 40 to 60 year olds have already had the vaccine due to other medical conditions or being health/key workers.
		
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Which is grim...but we know why...

Salad?  If I have to - but lettuce only - and can I have the sugar to sprinkle over it please...

That was a good few decades ago now...but I suspect I was not unusual.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 10, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Patience please, fellas. Whilst it is true that Covid won't be eradicated, the programme for us to come out of this spike ,and control it ,has been set out.
The kids have gone back to school, and in that environment the mixing amongst them will have occurred there, as much as it will when they play together outside school.
That way of life for the kids is normal and , if we are to live with this Covid, then it has to be accommodated. ( As will other normslities when they resume)
The return to school has been chosen as the first of these normalities, and it will be monitored over 5 weeks to see if the result allows there to be an acceptable risk in continuing the easement of restrictions.
And then there will be the next stages of easements and assessments.
I'm not sure from what you've written that you understand that strategy.
Maybe you do, but nevertheless think it is wrong.
I think the strategy is based on the reasonable assumption that vaccinations will keep infections and ,more importantly , serious health issues and deaths, well controlled ,and that the situation will improve in that respect ( as a result of more vaccinations etc) and go along hand in hand with more easements towards eventual normality.
But it isn't right to just "open the gates fully and hope all is ok".
It's this latter idea I fear you are favouring in your posts, born of impatience.
It is difficult but there is an end in sight, I believe.
		
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Possibly born out of frustration but I've just about got to the point that I've had enough. Had enough of seeing people every day blatantly flouting restrictions despite most people doing whats asked of them,  of not being able to do the job i love, of my childrens education being ruined, of them now having to go through multiple tests that are uncomfortable and distressing for them, i could go on and on but i wont, only to hear more scientists and expert doom mongers tell us that it will spike again no matter how carefully we come out of it. I honestly believe these people want us locked away 24 hours a day for as long as it takes and sod the economy or peoples mental/physical health.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is grim...but we know why...

Salad?  If I have to - but lettuce only - and can I have the sugar to sprinkle over it please...

That was a good few decades ago now...but I suspect I was not unusual.
		
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Why is it grim ? 


Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting to hear in Scotland 19% of 40 to 60 year olds have already had the vaccine due to other medical conditions or being health/key workers.
		
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Which is prob the same all over the world 🤷‍♂️


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 10, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Possibly born out of frustration but I've just about got to the point that I've had enough. Had enough of seeing people every day blatantly flouting restrictions despite most people doing whats asked of them,  of not being able to do the job i love, of my childrens education being ruined, of them now having to go through multiple tests that are uncomfortable and distressing for them, i could go on and on but i wont, only to hear more scientists and expert doom mongers tell us that it will spike again no matter how carefully we come out of it. I honestly believe these people want us locked away 24 hours a day for as long as it takes and sod the economy or peoples mental/physical health.
		
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It's the nature of scientists to warn, be cautious, to look on the dark side. That is why, ultimately, they will not be the ones to bring us out of this. They would always find another reason to hold back. They are hugely important but their advice should only be part of the equation.

I've stopped listening to the briefings, don't read a paper in physical form or online and currently only check the headlines on the news to make sure I'm not missing anything important. The rest are fillers that are going to add stress so I leave them alone. Try to block out the white noise, it really does help.

Just remember, under 3 weeks until we can whack a ball again, rule of 6 comes back. 12th April, hospitality opens again. These are in touching distance, nearly there.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 10, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's the nature of scientists to warn, be cautious, to look on the dark side. That is why, ultimately, they will not be the ones to bring us out of this. They would always find another reason to hold back. They are hugely important but their advice should only be part of the equation.

I've stopped listening to the briefings, don't read a paper in physical form or online and currently only check the headlines on the news to make sure I'm not missing anything important. The rest are fillers that are going to add stress so I leave them alone. Try to block out the white noise, it really does help.

Just remember, under 3 weeks until we can whack a ball again, rule of 6 comes back. 12th April, hospitality opens again. These are in touching distance, nearly there.
		
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It sounds like from all the words out of gov that this phase 1 is what it is.. it's only phase 2 and later will be delayed by numbers 

So no matter what we should in theory be hitting balls and have the kids at school 

Happy days


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is it grim ?


Which is prob the same all over the world 🤷‍♂️
		
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Because Scottish health remains 'not good' - as it has been for decades...the diet is traditionally poor; the drinking and substance abuse is dreadful; average male life expectancy in some parts of Glasgow is 70 (in the Calton and Bridgton districts it is under 68) - the Scottish average for males is 77...that's grim.

https://www.gcph.co.uk/population_health_trends/scottish_excess_mortality


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## pendodave (Mar 10, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've stopped listening to the briefings, don't read a paper in physical form or online and currently only check the headlines on the news to make sure I'm not missing anything important. The rest are fillers that are going to add stress so I leave them alone. Try to block out the white noise, it really does help.
		
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This is very sound advice. Stops worrying/getting wound up about that which cannot be controlled.
I would add 'participation in this thread' to the list.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because Scottish health remains 'not good' - as it has been for decades...the diet is traditionally poor; the drinking and substance abuse is dreadful; average male life expectancy in some parts of Glasgow is 70 - the Scottish average for males is 77...that's grim.
		
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How do you know it’s down to health issues as opposed to thousands of other medical issues - it also included health and key workers within that group


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know it’s down to health issues as opposed to thousands of other medical issues - it also included health and key workers within that group
		
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OK - it could be medical issues other than health issues...right.  And yes - health and other care workers included.  OK.  No issue and concern then.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2021)

Pro rata Scotland has a high number of health/social care staff because of it's rural setting.
A social worker/ambulance crew/probation officer in the Highlands or the Borders will cover many more miles seeing fewer clients than a social worker in the more populated parts of the UK. 
We also have a high diabetic group.
Probably the reasons for what is perceived to be a high number. I don't know what other regions of the UK are.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 10, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How do you know it’s down to health issues as opposed to thousands of other medical issues - it also included health and key workers within that group
		
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A genuine question.
What other Medical issues would not be associated to health?


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## bobmac (Mar 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A genuine question.
What other Medical issues would not be associated to health?
		
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I thought that as well but half a second later I thought whatever.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 11, 2021)

Schoolteacher neighbour tests positive third day back...
Not a happy chappie...


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## backwoodsman (Mar 11, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Schoolteacher neighbour tests positive third day back...
Not a happy chappie...
		
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What's to say he didnt pick it up 4/5/6 days ago? Either way can understand he's not happy though.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 11, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			What's to say he didnt pick it up 4/5/6 days ago? Either way can understand he's not happy though.
		
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Strong possibility... As he continued working through 'lockdown', at school, for essential workers kids...


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A genuine question.
What other Medical issues would not be associated to health?
		
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Are we being literal here 🙄

The “health issues” being mentioned that are grim were the likes of obesity , alcoholism etc - hence why diet was mentioned by SILH

As opposed to “medical conditions” not derived from the likes of drinking too much or smoking too much etc


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## Ethan (Mar 11, 2021)

The European Medicines Agency approved the one shot Johnson and Johnson vaccine today. This is a viral vector type vaccine somewhat similar to the Astra Zeneca one. The headline result was 66% reduction, although the number was higher in the US and lower in SA. There was also a strong effect on disease severity. 

There is also a 2 shot study ongoing, and it is widely expected that may have a higher level of efficacy. 

EMA


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## GB72 (Mar 11, 2021)

Out if interest, and this may be one for Ethan, are other countries actually looking for new variants of Covid. It just strikes me as odd (not in a conspiracy theory way but in a scientific way), that covid has spread globally, been subjected to no end of conditions and yet the only mutations of significance have come out of Brazil, South Africa and Kent.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Junta de Andalusia have done an about turn on only those on the Spanish health system will get the jab. The other regions, by example, and the national health council pressured the Junta at Monday’s meeting to change the policy.

Result for all foreign nationals, like us, who didn’t qualify because we are below pensionable age.
		
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Chance your arm Brian, I'm sure you'd pass for pension age , take care in the mean time


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2021)

Another question for Ethan, the one shot J and J is showing a headline result of 66%. Yet some of the 2 shots Currently being given in the UK are higher than that after the first dose. What happens if folk, for what ever reason miss the second re vaccine protection from Covid.


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## Ethan (Mar 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Another question for Ethan, the one shot J and J is showing a headline result of 66%. Yet some of the 2 shots Currently being given in the UK are higher than that after the first dose. What happens if folk, for what ever reason miss the second re vaccine protection from Covid.
		
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There are differences between the trials, different definitions of Covid (although not major differences) and the populations studied (more significant). The J&J studies included SA and that dragged their headline number down a bit. I think the J&J vaccine is broadly in the same performance window as AZ, not surprising as they have the same mechanism of action. The mRNAs (Pfizer/Modwerna) certainly appear o have a stronger effect on one dose only. If you took an endpoint of 'Stops Covid or severe Covid', there would be less differences between all the vaccines. 

The immunity provided by vaccination and natural infection follows roughly similar patterns, an antibody response which lasts 6 months or so, and then some degree of T-cell immunity which lasts longer. We don't really know how long the T-cell response lasts, could be months or years, but that may the element that is most different between infection and vaccination, or between different vaccines. It is generally believed that vaccination offers stronger immunity and may offer broader immunity. Your T-cells may recognise variants as being Covid virus in disguise, and with repeat exposure, through vaccines over several years or exposure to virus, the immune system gets a better picture of what Covid looks like. That is why most of us don't get the flu every year. Our immunity now knows what flu looks like and only a really powerful strain will overcome that.

One vacc is better than none, and you probably get most of the effect. With Pfizer, the second one probably mostly extends the duration of effect, with AZ it also boosts the effect from stopping most Covid and reducing the severity of the rest to stopping almost all of them. Natural infection plus one shot probably does much the same.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are differences between the trials, different definitions of Covid (although not major differences) and the populations studied (more significant). The J&J studies included SA and that dragged their headline number down a bit. I think the J&J vaccine is broadly in the same performance window as AZ, not surprising as they have the same mechanism of action. The mRNAs (Pfizer/Modwerna) certainly appear o have a stronger effect on one dose only. If you took an endpoint of 'Stops Covid or severe Covid', there would be less differences between all the vaccines.

The immunity provided by vaccination and natural infection follows roughly similar patterns, an antibody response which lasts 6 months or so, and then some degree of T-cell immunity which lasts longer. We don't really know how long the T-cell response lasts, could be months or years, but that may the element that is most different between infection and vaccination, or between different vaccines. It is generally believed that vaccination offers stronger immunity and may offer broader immunity. *Your T-cells may recognise variants as being Covid virus in disguise, and with repeat exposure, through vaccines over several years or exposure to virus, the immune system gets a better picture of what Covid looks like. That is why most of us don't get the flu every year. Our immunity now knows what flu looks like and only a really powerful strain will overcome that.*

One vacc is better than none, and you probably get most of the effect. With Pfizer, the second one probably mostly extends the duration of effect, with AZ it also boosts the effect from stopping most Covid and reducing the severity of the rest to stopping almost all of them. Natural infection plus one shot probably does much the same.
		
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This is the kind of layman’s terms that I would suspect most folk would understand. I am of the ilk that this years vaccine is not just a one off. For a few years one shot vaccines may well be the norm. That said, the anti vaxers that don’t want a vaccine jab, may well just be delaying the inevitable and getting the virus one day. However that turns out for them, only time will tell.

Cheers Ethan me man.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 11, 2021)

Still can't book an appointment where the 2nd jab is any closer than 84 miles away....


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## Ethan (Mar 11, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			This is the kind of layman’s terms that I would suspect most folk would understand. I am of the ilk that this years vaccine is not just a one off. For a few years one shot vaccines may well be the norm. That said, the anti vaxers that don’t want a vaccine jab, may well just be delaying the inevitable and getting the virus one day. However that turns out for them, only time will tell.

Cheers Ethan me man.
		
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I think there is a lot of interest in packaging flu and Covid together in a one shot respiratory illness vaccine and making that an annual event, probably for over 50s but maybe broader than that. The new vaccine techniques using genetics can be updated a lot faster than the old style weakened virus forms.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think there is a lot of interest in packaging flu and Covid together in a one shot respiratory illness vaccine and making that an annual event, probably for over 50s but maybe broader than that. The new vaccine techniques using genetics can be updated a lot faster than the old style weakened virus forms.
		
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combining flu and a Covid vaccines, that I didn’t know 😳. Yet it makes so much sense. 👍 cheers me man


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## chellie (Mar 11, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Still can't book an appointment where the 2nd jab is any closer than 84 miles away....

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You can alter your second vaccination centre though after you've had your first.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 11, 2021)

Cancelled my 2nd today hoping for a closer place as didnt fancy the 30mile drive each way but closest still 13mikes away...will just check every so often as was advised when booked it at the vac centre.


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## Beezerk (Mar 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cancelled my 2nd today hoping for a closer place as didnt fancy the 30mile drive each way but closest still 13mikes away...will just check every so often as was advised when booked it at the vac centre.
		
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You didn't fancy a 30 mile drive each way for something that could potentially save your life?
Wow is all I can say 😳


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cancelled my 2nd today hoping for a closer place as didnt fancy the 30mile drive each way but closest still 13mikes away...will just check every so often as was advised when booked it at the vac centre.
		
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What’s the problem? Unless you are very lucky you are going to have to travel to the vaccine centre. 
It doesn’t really make any difference if it is 2, 4, or 13 miles, it’s classed as essential travel, so it’s ok to do.

The important thing is that you get the jab in good time, a bit of inconvenience is a small price to pay


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## USER1999 (Mar 11, 2021)

When I booked both of mine, they are in the town hall, a 15 minute walk, or a couple of minutes by car. I guess I was lucky. Others seem to have not been.


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## Ethan (Mar 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cancelled my 2nd today hoping for a closer place as didnt fancy the 30mile drive each way but closest still 13mikes away...will just check every so often as was advised when booked it at the vac centre.
		
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Unless you have a busy diary or limited transport options, I would take the earliest available.


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## Paperboy (Mar 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Unless you have a busy diary or limited transport options, I would take the earliest available.
		
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But that wouldn't give him anything too complain about.


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## Billysboots (Mar 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cancelled my 2nd today hoping for a closer place as didnt fancy the 30mile drive each way but closest still 13mikes away...will just check every so often as was advised when booked it at the vac centre.
		
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You’ve cancelled a jab to save yourself a 60 mile round trip in the knowledge that you still need to make a journey totalling nearly 30 miles?

Sorry, I simply don’t see any logic in that decision whatsoever.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Unless you have a busy diary or limited transport options, I would take the earliest available.
		
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As the closest earliest time wasn't until June my thinking is that I can get an earlier time closer to me...The website requires me to cancel a booking before I can look for another.  I’d rather I didn’t have to do that for the reasons folks have given to my cancelling.

just checked and got one over a week earlier than my original booking and a lot closer 👍


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As the closest earliest time wasn't until June my thinking is that I can get an earlier time closer to me...The website requires me to cancel a booking before I can look for another.  I’d rather I didn’t have to do that for the reasons folks have given to my cancelling.

just checked and got one over a week earlier than my original booking and a lot closer 👍
		
Click to expand...

The booking system will not let you book a jab closer than 11 weeks together which is why your being offered June

Take the booking, in June you could be behind the 18-30 getting 1st jabs . It's going to get more busy


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## GB72 (Mar 12, 2021)

To be honest, they could tell me that I had to drive to Lands End to get a jab and I would be straight the car and on my way.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2021)

Throughout this vaccine drive my sister has been worried about hers 

She is 30 and asthmatic.. also has anotber illness can never remember what (bad brother)

Anyways she works in a school and really been hoping to be done as she so worried 

She's getting done today the local hospital had 5 vaccines spare and her head offered her first


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cancelled my 2nd today hoping for a closer place as didnt fancy the 30mile drive each way but closest still 13mikes away...will just check every so often as was advised when booked it at the vac centre.
		
Click to expand...

You wouldn’t survive in some of the rural communities, many in Devon and Cornwall are having a two hour round trip for their jabs. Looks like people are expecting door to door service.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 12, 2021)

Lowest infection rate since September

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-infection-rate-in-england-at-lowest-level-since-september-12243680


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2021)

The needle of destiny has been administered 
At home watching the golf and feeling good


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## Old Skier (Mar 12, 2021)

Have family back home in Wales over 60 and don’t have any idea when they will get a jab yet but do know when they can have a haircut.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 12, 2021)

Imurg said:



			The needle of destiny has been administered
At home watching the golf and feeling good

Click to expand...

Don’t tell me you did the “little prick/ nice smile” gag 😂😂


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Don’t tell me you did the “little prick/ nice smile” gag 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

No, she recognised the name and said she'd already heard it....


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## road2ruin (Mar 12, 2021)

GB72 said:



			To be honest, they could tell me that I had to drive to Lands End to get a jab and I would be straight the car and on my way.
		
Click to expand...

A 60 mile drive sounds like a dream. Couple of hours away from the family on my own and in sole charge of the car radio. As much as I love them the thought of a little day trip without them is appealing.....


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## GB72 (Mar 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			A 60 mile drive sounds like a dream. Couple of hours away from the family on my own and in sole charge of the car radio. As much as I love them the thought of a little day trip without them is appealing.....
		
Click to expand...

My drive to work and back is more than 60 miles. I like it, helps me get into the right frame of mind for work and to get work out of my system afterwards.


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## oxymoron (Mar 12, 2021)

Makes me smile this , wont drive 60 miles for a potentially life saving jab , however to knock a little ball around a field in to a little hole , no
trouble there mate


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 12, 2021)

On the wall at the Epsom vaccination centre; 
	


Made me smile while I waited.


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## Reemul (Mar 12, 2021)

Just turned 50 and had my invite today, jab Thursday, good timing, really looking forward to golf, fishing and some nicer weather


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## Smiffy (Mar 12, 2021)

Got to be honest, I am getting increasingly depressed during this period of furlough. Wife still working, so just me at home all day with three cats for company. No motivation whatsoever....


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## PNWokingham (Mar 12, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Got to be honest, I am getting increasingly depressed during this period of furlough. Wife still working, so just me at home all day with three cats for company. No motivation whatsoever....
		
Click to expand...

 a game of golf with me to look forward to!!


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Got to be honest, I am getting increasingly depressed during this period of furlough. Wife still working, so just me at home all day with three cats for company. No motivation whatsoever....
		
Click to expand...

Same here Rob....by the time e I go back on the 12th April ( assuming we do) I'll have lost 253 working days since this time last year...forgotten what it's like to get up and go to work.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 12, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Same here Rob....by the time e I go back on the 12th April ( assuming we do) I'll have lost 253 working days since this time last year...forgotten what it's like to get up and go to work.
		
Click to expand...

If you want to get up at 4am tomorrow morning and cover my shift for me you are more than welcome. Then again you have have to get up about 11pm tonight to make it on time..


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## Imurg (Mar 12, 2021)

saving_par said:



			If you want to get up at 4am tomorrow morning and cover my shift for me you are more than welcome. Then again you have have to get up about 11pm tonight to make it on time..

Click to expand...

So so tempting....not!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 12, 2021)

Imurg said:



			So so tempting....not!

Click to expand...

Enjoy your lie in...


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## Smiffy (Mar 12, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Same here Rob....by the time e I go back on the 12th April ( assuming we do) I'll have lost 253 working days since this time last year...forgotten what it's like to get up and go to work.
		
Click to expand...

I was furloughed last year, went back in July and was then furloughed again. Went back in November and was then furloughed again in December. Financially I'm okay, and the wife is still working full-time, so her salary has remained intact, so not as bad as a lot of others. But I need to be working.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 12, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			I was furloughed last year, went back in July and was then furloughed again. Went back in November and was then furloughed again in December. Financially I'm okay, and the wife is still working full-time, so her salary has remained intact, so not as bad as a lot of others. *But I need to be working.[/QUOTE*]

Hope you have a change of heart by time of 65. Need to be prepared😀
		
Click to expand...


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## Smiffy (Mar 12, 2021)

Errrr......     I am 65
🥴🥴🥴🥴


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## Paperboy (Mar 12, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Got to be honest, I am getting increasingly depressed during this period of furlough. Wife still working, so just me at home all day with three cats for company. No motivation whatsoever....
		
Click to expand...

Can't you indulge in a spot of fishing?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 12, 2021)

Just been surfing the net. Came across a good read ( Washington post ) re the vaccines.  Bottom line, which one would you choose. The Oxford ( British ) one, astra Zeneca. Or the ( German) Pfizer one, There words, not mine. It was odd how some folk perceived the German one which was developed by a Turkish guy as the posh one. Whilst reading this I thought how odd it was that 6 months ago we were desperate for any. Yet here we are that in some instances there’s now a choice. Yet in some countries they are still waiting for any.
Comes on a day when I read that China is being accused of donating vaccines to countries in favour for trade. Seems to me the world is really getting back to normal.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just been surfing the net. Came across a good read ( Washington post ) re the vaccines.  Bottom line, which one would you choose. The Oxford ( British ) one, astra Zeneca. Or the ( German) Pfizer one, There words, not mine. It was odd how some folk perceived the German one which was developed by a Turkish guy as the posh one. Whilst reading this I thought how odd it was that 6 months ago we were desperate for any. Yet here we are that in some instances there’s now a choice. Yet in some countries they are still waiting for any.
Comes on a day when I read that China is being accused of donating vaccines to countries in favour for trade. Seems to me the world is really getting back to normal.
		
Click to expand...

Same as people who use the phrase "avoid like the plaque"

Then covid comes and think ah be alright


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## Slime (Mar 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Same as people who use the phrase *"avoid like the plaque"*

Then covid comes and think ah be alright
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that what dentists say?


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## IanM (Mar 12, 2021)

I am sure this has impacted me more than I've thought.  Been very sressy recently. 

But... playing golf on Monday.  Might go fishing on Sunday and today my sister was able to visit my mum inside the Care Home!! Hasnt see her since August...and that was through a window! 😁


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 12, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Errrr......     I am 65
🥴🥴🥴🥴
		
Click to expand...

Whoops!😳😁


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## harpo_72 (Mar 13, 2021)

Need a new boiler, plumber replacing next weekend. Big issue is trying to find a place to stay for the weekend. Just went on Airbnb and found somewhere close by and checking if it’s all okay !


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just been surfing the net. Came across a good read ( Washington post ) re the vaccines.  Bottom line, which one would you choose. The Oxford ( British ) one, astra Zeneca. Or the ( German) Pfizer one, There words, not mine. It was odd how some folk perceived the German one which was developed by a Turkish guy as the posh one. Whilst reading this I thought how odd it was that 6 months ago we were desperate for any. Yet here we are that in some instances there’s now a choice. Yet in some countries they are still waiting for any.
Comes on a day when I read that China is being accused of donating vaccines to countries in favour for trade. Seems to me the world is really getting back to normal.
		
Click to expand...

People in the UK have been rejecting Pfizer for the "British" one. Vaccine nationalism is definitely a real thing. The UK has not helped this by some of the language used while the vax were coming out. Procurement policy has very clearly prioritised UK manufacturing over companies with the best track record of vaccine development and production. The displacement of Merck from an Oxford deal to put a (mostly) UK company(AZ) in instead was a mistake in my view. AZ has no track record in vaccine production and their production has fallen over quite a few times now. Likewise Novavax and Valneva got big contracts because they have UK production, even though the Valneva one is still a long way from completion. Pfizer and J&J should have had larger orders. mRNAs are also easier to manufacture then viral vectors, so more de-risking could have occurred if the Pfizer order was larger. The acquisition costs of the different vaccines are irrelevant compared to the cost of slippage.


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## chellie (Mar 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Need a new boiler, plumber replacing next weekend. Big issue is trying to find a place to stay for the weekend. Just went on Airbnb and found somewhere close by and checking if it’s all okay !
		
Click to expand...

Why do you have to move out?


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## harpo_72 (Mar 13, 2021)

chellie said:



			Why do you have to move out?
		
Click to expand...

No water and The door will be open all day .. better to give the clear space.
Thankfully Airbnb okay


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			People in the UK have been rejecting Pfizer for the "British" one. Vaccine nationalism is definitely a real thing. The UK has not helped this by some of the language used while the vax were coming out. Procurement policy has very clearly prioritised UK manufacturing over companies with the best track record of vaccine development and production. The displacement of Merck from an Oxford deal to put a (mostly) UK company(AZ) in instead was a mistake in my view. AZ has no track record in vaccine production and their production has fallen over quite a few times now. Likewise Novavax and Valneva got big contracts because they have UK production, even though the Valneva one is still a long way from completion. Pfizer and J&J should have had larger orders. mRNAs are also easier to manufacture then viral vectors, so more de-risking could have occurred if the Pfizer order was larger. The acquisition costs of the different vaccines are irrelevant compared to the cost of slippage.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that for some they"must have the British" vaccine attitude is somewhat small minded.
However, in respect of the Government ordering Vaccines manufactured in U.K., I would agree with that.
Maybe putting all your eggs into one ( overseas) basket isn't the wisest thing re these vaccines, and maybe they had an inkling of the possibility of production elsewhere being prevented from being imported😉
Which nearly happened, ; and which we know, was threatened to happen.

You know of course which ,from a purely scientific/medical point of view, is the best vaccine(s) to have, but there would be other considerations also.

That said, I happen to have had the pFizer one, about which I am highly satisfied, having read your insights on it.😀


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree that for some they"must have the British" vaccine attitude is somewhat small minded.
However, in respect of the Government ordering Vaccines manufactured in U.K., I would agree with that.
Maybe putting all your eggs into one ( overseas) basket isn't the wisest thing re these vaccines, and maybe they had an inkling of the possibility of production elsewhere being prevented from being imported😉
Which nearly happened, ; and which we know, was threatened to happen.

You know of course which ,from a purely scientific/medical point of view, is the best vaccine(s) to have, but there would be other considerations also.

That said, I happen to have had the pFizer one, about which I am highly satisfied, having read your insights on it.😀
		
Click to expand...

I am involved in ordering medicines, so have some familiarity with the manufacturing side too. The point is precisely not to put all your eggs in one basket, so the sensible strategy is to place most of your orders across the companies with the best track record of developing and manufacturing, the most reliable mechanism of vaccine, and to mix around a minority of the order book amongst others, interesting proposals and local companies. That is not what the UK did. They refused to allow Oxford to do a deal with Merck, one of the world's biggest vaccine manufacturers with factories all over the world, and insisted on Astra Zeneca instead, a company with no track record or manufacturing expertise in vaccines. AZ have, unsurprisingly, made a number of mistakes, ranging from the design of the studies to mistakes in manufacturing resulting in several serious short-notice delays. I maintain Merck would have done (possibly a lot) better. 

The obvious vax to build a strategy on was Pfizer, even setting aside any efficacy differences. One of the biggest companies and very effective at getting stuff done. mRNA is also easier to make than viral vectors. The acquisition cost is almost irrelevant compared to the cost of delay or supply shortages. 

Some of the other orders were wild cards. Novavax looks like a good one, but Valneva remains an unknown quantity and neither may arrive before every adult is done anyway. But the UK ordered more of each of those than Pfizer. That is a pretty risky strategy.


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## bobmac (Mar 13, 2021)

''I would pick whichever was most readily available to me'' 
Dr Fauci   13/3/21


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am involved in ordering medicines, so have some familiarity with the manufacturing side too. The point is precisely not to put all your eggs in one basket, so the sensible strategy is to place most of your orders across the companies with the best track record of developing and manufacturing, the most reliable mechanism of vaccine, and to mix around a minority of the order book amongst others, interesting proposals and local companies. That is not what the UK did. They refused to allow Oxford to do a deal with Merck, one of the world's biggest vaccine manufacturers with factories all over the world, and insisted on Astra Zeneca instead, a company with no track record or manufacturing expertise in vaccines. AZ have, unsurprisingly, made a number of mistakes, ranging from the design of the studies to mistakes in manufacturing resulting in several serious short-notice delays. I maintain Merck would have done (possibly a lot) better.

The obvious vax to build a strategy on was Pfizer, even setting aside any efficacy differences. One of the biggest companies and very effective at getting stuff done. mRNA is also easier to make than viral vectors. The acquisition cost is almost irrelevant compared to the cost of delay or supply shortages.

Some of the other orders were wild cards. Novavax looks like a good one, but Valneva remains an unknown quantity and neither may arrive before every adult is done anyway. But the UK ordered more of each of those than Pfizer. That is a pretty risky strategy.
		
Click to expand...

So are you suggesting that the UK's vaccination strategy has been  a failure?


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am involved in ordering medicines, so have some familiarity with the manufacturing side too. The point is precisely not to put all your eggs in one basket, so the sensible strategy is to place most of your orders across the companies with the best track record of developing and manufacturing, the most reliable mechanism of vaccine, and to mix around a minority of the order book amongst others, interesting proposals and local companies. That is not what the UK did. They refused to allow Oxford to do a deal with Merck, one of the world's biggest vaccine manufacturers with factories all over the world, and insisted on Astra Zeneca instead, a company with no track record or manufacturing expertise in vaccines. AZ have, unsurprisingly, made a number of mistakes, ranging from the design of the studies to mistakes in manufacturing resulting in several serious short-notice delays. I maintain Merck would have done (possibly a lot) better.

The obvious vax to build a strategy on was Pfizer, even setting aside any efficacy differences. One of the biggest companies and very effective at getting stuff done. mRNA is also easier to make than viral vectors. The acquisition cost is almost irrelevant compared to the cost of delay or supply shortages.

Some of the other orders were wild cards. Novavax looks like a good one, but Valneva remains an unknown quantity and neither may arrive before every adult is done anyway. But the UK ordered more of each of those than Pfizer. That is a pretty risky strategy.
		
Click to expand...

When investing it in innovation can be better to be a big fish in a smaller pond.

By investing in a joint University / corporate approach the UK was able to negotiate the 'at cost ' deal and robustly protect UK role.

A UK deal with Merck would have had less influence for Oxford Uni. and the UK contract would have had to fit with the company's T&Cs and IPR ownership.


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## chellie (Mar 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			No water and The door will be open all day .. better to give the clear space.
Thankfully Airbnb okay
		
Click to expand...

Oh. We've never moved out when having one done.


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

drdel said:



			When investing it in innovation can be better to be a big fish in a smaller pond.

By investing in a joint University / corporate approach the UK was able to negotiate the 'at cost ' deal and robustly protect UK role.

A UK deal with Merck would have had less influence for Oxford Uni. and the UK contract would have had to fit with the company's T&Cs and IPR ownership.
		
Click to expand...

This wasn't an exercise in innovation, this was an exercise in reliably and safely securing product. Choosing a company with basically no experience in the space isn't innovation. The Merck contract may not have agreed exclusive supply to the UK, but they would have been much more likely to be able to reliably provide product. AZ have not, their supply capabilities have fallen back repeatedlyand it remains to be seen if they can supply the ongoing demand. In June, the AZ CEO said they would be able to supply 200m doses by September 2020. That was hopelessly optimistic and they missed dit by a mile. 

The 'at cost' deal is of little consequence. The EU got a good deal on Pfizer and a Merck/Oxford deal would have been cheaper than Pfizer and cheaper again to the UK because of the Oxford link. Any extra cost is a drop in the ocean of the monies spent/wasted on the pandemic response. I am not sure that less influence for Oxford would have been bad, given their contribution to the clunky design of the trial programme. Could have done with some more regulatory and production expertise.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This wasn't an exercise in innovation, this was an exercise in reliably and safely securing product. Choosing a company with basically no experience in the space isn't innovation. The Merck contract may not have agreed exclusive supply to the UK, but they would have been much more likely to be able to reliably provide product. AZ have not, their supply capabilities have fallen back repeatedlyand it remains to be seen if they can supply the ongoing demand. In June, the AZ CEO said they would be able to supply 200m doses by September 2020. That was hopelessly optimistic and they missed dit by a mile.

The 'at cost' deal is of little consequence. The EU got a good deal on Pfizer and a Merck/Oxford deal would have been cheaper than Pfizer and cheaper again to the UK because of the Oxford link. Any extra cost is a drop in the ocean of the monies spent/wasted on the pandemic response. I am not sure that less influence for Oxford would have been bad, given their contribution to the clunky design of the trial programme. Could have done with some more regulatory and production expertise.
		
Click to expand...

So the EU got it right and the UK are wrong. 
 🤔


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## harpo_72 (Mar 13, 2021)

chellie said:



			Oh. We've never moved out when having one done.
		
Click to expand...

If I was working in an office I think I would have stayed. But it’s over the weekend so it was a case of get out the way let them crack on


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## Imurg (Mar 13, 2021)

Well, the jab must be working coz I'm starting to feel like death warmed up...
Sounds like a couple of paracetamol and an earlier night than normal.....


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			So the EU got it right and the UK are wrong.
🤔
		
Click to expand...

It remains to be seen if the UK got it right, because the ongoing supply for the remaining first vax and the load of second vax is not secured, but even if it all works out, in my opinion the UK strategy placed an unnecessary over-dependence on the Oxford/AZ vaccine, which was risky. I find it difficult to imagine that a Merck/Oxford deal, or a greater emphasis on Pfizer would not have provided smoother supplies to both the UK and the EU. The EU has been massively let down by AZ whose delivery failures to them have been disastrous. 

A national vaccination strategy to prevent tens of thousands of deaths is not a situation where it is OK to take unnecessary risks and then say 'Its OK, it worked out after all'. 

But rather than troll, let us know your analysis of the situation.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It remains to be seen if the UK got it right, because the ongoing supply for the remaining first vax and the load of second vax is not secured, but even if it all works out, in my opinion the UK strategy placed an unnecessary over-dependence on the Oxford/AZ vaccine, which was risky. I find it difficult to imagine that a Merck/Oxford deal, or a greater emphasis on Pfizer would not have provided smoother supplies to both the UK and the EU. The EU has been massively let down by AZ whose delivery failures to them have been disastrous.

A national vaccination strategy to prevent tens of thousands of deaths is not a situation where it is OK to take unnecessary risks and then say 'Its OK, it worked out after all'.

But rather than troll, let us know your analysis of the situation.
		
Click to expand...

Firstly I would ask you to answer my question. 

Are you saying that the EU strategy is  proving more successful?

I appreciate that you are opposed to the UK Government and its overall handling of the pandemic and  many would agree but it seems pretty  clear that so far the vaccination programme in this country is proving more successful than our former partners in the EU.

And someone questioning your view on an issue  does not constitute trolling.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It remains to be seen if the UK got it right, because the ongoing supply for the remaining first vax and the load of second vax is not secured
		
Click to expand...

I thought I'd read, possibly on the BBC News website, that they were stockpiling enough vaccines to make sure that they had enough to give the second jabs on time to everyone that has had their first jab. The quote was along the lines of they could have gone faster with giving people the first jab but wanted to make sure they had enough held back for second jabs.


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I thought I'd read, possibly on the BBC News website, that they were stockpiling enough vaccines to make sure that they had enough to give the second jabs on time to everyone that has had their first jab. The quote was along the lines of they could have gone faster with giving people the first jab but wanted to make sure they had enough held back for second jabs.
		
Click to expand...

That is the plan but as I understand it, the stockpiling depends on ongoing supply.


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Firstly I would ask you to answer my question.

Are you saying that the EU strategy is  proving more successful?

I appreciate that you are opposed to the UK Government and its overall handling of the pandemic and  many would agree but it seems pretty  clear that so far the vaccination programme in this country is proving more successful than our former partners in the EU.

And someone questioning your view on an issue  does not constitute trolling.
		
Click to expand...

Your question misses the point. It isn't a matter of UK or EU policy being better or worse. Each one can be examined in its own right. The EU policy was OK, but the execution was bad, and they got screwed by AZ. The contracts for EU and UK were recently published and in fact the EU one was signed one day before the UK. The problem with EU rollout is partly due to that supply problem, and also to do with slower gear up in member states. 

But none of that is relevant to the UK position, except to reinforce the point that relying on AZ was an unwise strategy. 

Trying to create a spurious false dichotomy (a form of whatabouttery), or using a straw man argument is indeed trolling.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 13, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1370693838503837699
Scary that this was 12 months ago


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Your question misses the point. It isn't a matter of UK or EU policy being better or worse. Each one can be examined in its own right. The EU policy was OK, but the execution was bad, and they got screwed by AZ. The contracts for EU and UK were recently published and in fact the EU one was signed one day before the UK. The problem with EU rollout is partly due to that supply problem, and also to do with slower gear up in member states.

But none of that is relevant to the UK position, except to reinforce the point that relying on AZ was an unwise strategy.

Trying to create a spurious false dichotomy (a form of whatabouttery), or using a straw man argument is indeed trolling.
		
Click to expand...

No .

I am just trying to work out why you can never say anything positive about this country's handling of the crisis. 

There have been plenty of opportunities for us to rightly criticise the Government over this but I don't think the vaccination  programme is one of those occasions. 

If anything it is yourself that is guilty of using spurious arguments,  perhaps based upon your views on another subject which we may no longer discuss.


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Your question misses the point. It isn't a matter of UK or EU policy being better or worse. Each one can be examined in its own right. The EU policy was OK, but the execution was bad, and they got screwed by AZ. The contracts for EU and UK were recently published and in fact the EU one was signed one day before the UK. The problem with EU rollout is partly due to that supply problem, and also to do with slower gear up in member states.

But none of that is relevant to the UK position, except to reinforce the point that relying on AZ was an unwise strategy.

Trying to create a spurious false dichotomy (a form of whatabouttery), or using a straw man argument is indeed trolling.
		
Click to expand...

C'mon it is just your view, not gospel please respect those who disagree and may know a bit about complex multi-national supply chains.

The UK has a declared strategy of avoiding supply chain vulnerability and agile manufacturing. The AZ supply chain debugged and operational because of the prompt UK investment and contracting. 

Our vaccination programme is something to be proud of and has/is saving lives.


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

drdel said:



			C'mon it is just your view, not gospel please respect those who disagree and may know a bit about complex multi-national supply chains.

The UK has a declared strategy of avoiding supply chain vulnerability and agile manufacturing. The AZ supply chain debugged and operational because of the prompt UK investment and contracting.

Our vaccination programme is something to be proud of and has/is saving lives.
		
Click to expand...

You may have experience in complex multi-national supply chains, but if you read above you will see that is not the issue. The issue is identifying the vaccine development programmes most likely to succeed and the companies most likely to deliver them. Have you a lot of experience of those too?

The people who do that in big pharma companies use reliable and experienced manufacturers. That is how you avoid supply chain vulnerability.

The vaccination programme is excellent, but that is due to the efforts of the NHS.


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			No .

I am just trying to work out why you can never say anything positive about this country's handling of the crisis.

There have been plenty of opportunities for us to rightly criticise the Government over this but I don't think the vaccination  programme is one of those occasions.

If anything it is yourself that is guilty of using spurious arguments,  perhaps based upon your views on another subject which we may no longer discuss.
		
Click to expand...

You were the one who raised the EU, pal. Nothing to do with what I was saying. I was referring to the procurement process, which I (and a lot of people in industry) think was unbalanced and too strongly influenced by political considerations. When the AZ deal was announced, I know a few key people in industry who wondered aloud why AZ was chosen, because they aren't even a vaccine company. 

I think the NHS effort to manage Covid patients and administer vaccines has been fantastic. 

Which points did I make that were spurious, and why? Or have you just moved to general vague criticisms now?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You were the one who raised the EU, pal. Nothing to do with what I was saying. I was referring to the procurement process, which I (and a lot of people in industry) think was unbalanced and too strongly influenced by political considerations. When the AZ deal was announced, I know a few key people in industry who wondered aloud why AZ was chosen, because they aren't even a vaccine company.

I think the NHS effort to manage Covid patients and administer vaccines has been fantastic.

Which points did I make that were spurious, and why? Or have you just moved to general vague criticisms now?
		
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The first reference in this conversation to the EU came in post #7452 from yourself, pal!


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2021)

Me and Missis T have had our Oxford vaccines tonight, I was very impressed with the set up.  Missis T knew one of the nurses. She did her training with her back in 1980. Anyway the nurse said quite a few folk have turned down the Oxford vaccine wanting the Pfizer one.
I spoke to a good pal in Italy earlier today. She is 70, I mentioned we are having our vaccines today. She said she has registered with her local chemist that she wants the vaccine but the chemist does not have a clue when they will some vaccines in. She was not impressed at all.


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## Ethan (Mar 13, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			The first reference in this conversation to the EU came i post #7452 from yourself, pal!
		
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You need to get a grip. 10,000 posts ago. That is some sort of obsessive disorder.

The recent conversation about UK procurement policy had nothing to do with the EU. You drew an unnecessary snide comparison intended to provoke a response.

But if you want to do this, cool. Lets do it.

The score for this pandemic is not measured in vaccinations. It is measured in bodies, and the UK is still well behind European countries of a similar size. The UK had the advantage of seeing this play out in other countries, particularly Italy and Spain, and therefore should have done much better by being able to respond faster. It didn't, it did worse. The way the pandemic was handled was horrible. The herd immunity debate is just one example of this. Test and trace has been abysmal and lockdowns have been delayed and weak. The lack of proper immigration controls at the time when they really mattered allowed far too much virus into the country. 

The vaccine procurement policy was not driven by public health principles, but by venture capital deal-making. It was unbalanced and took too many risks.

The efforts of NHS staff to deliver vaccines have nothing to do with the JCVI, but have to do with the efforts of local NHS bodies and volunteers. But they have been affected by supply problems, and the story isn't over.

If you have any arguments of substance to make, go ahead.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You need to get a grip. 10,000 posts ago. That is some sort of obsessive disorder.

The recent conversation about UK procurement policy had nothing to do with the EU. You drew an unnecessary snide comparison intended to provoke a response.

But if you want to do this, cool. Lets do it.

The score for this pandemic is not measured in vaccinations. It is measured in bodies, and the UK is still well behind European countries of a similar size. The UK had the advantage of seeing this play out in other countries, particularly Italy and Spain, and therefore should have done much better by being able to respond faster. It didn't, it did worse. The way the pandemic was handled was horrible. The herd immunity debate is just one example of this. Test and trace has been abysmal and lockdowns have been delayed and weak. The lack of proper immigration controls at the time when they really mattered allowed far too much virus into the country.

The vaccine procurement policy was not driven by public health principles, but by venture capital deal-making. It was unbalanced and took too many risks.

The efforts of NHS staff to deliver vaccines have nothing to do with the JCVI, but have to do with the efforts of local NHS bodies and volunteers. But they have been affected by supply problems, and the story isn't over.

If you have any arguments of substance to make, go ahead.
		
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Typo should have read #17452 as you well know. 

And as for snide remarks I  would have to take lessons from the most arrogant member  of the forum,  whoever that may be, pal.

As for the Government's handling of the pandemic I would never argue that considerable mistakes were made with regard to  border control  and the initial thoughts on herd immunity. 

However,  unlike yourself I believe that  if they are to be held responsible for the failures then they should  also be given credit for successes.


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## richart (Mar 13, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Well, the jab must be working coz I'm starting to feel like death warmed up...
Sounds like a couple of paracetamol and an earlier night than normal.....

Click to expand...

Had my jab last Saturday, and this is the first day I haven’t felt rubbish. 

My daughter had hers yesterday, but Mrs H is still waiting for doctors to confirm because of an allergy she can safely have a jab. She was told she could not have AZ jab when she turned up for that one, but Pfizer would be ok. Turns up for Pfizer one and change of mind and she can’t have that one now. Worrying.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			Typo should have read #17452 as you well know.

And as for snide remarks I  would have to take lessons from the most arrogant member  of the forum,  whoever that may be, pal.

As for the Government's handling of the pandemic I would never argue that considerable mistakes were made with regard to  border control  and the initial thoughts on herd immunity.

However,  unlike yourself I believe that  if they are to be held responsible for the failures then they should  also be given credit for successes.
		
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personally I think the government have had just two successes.

1, vaccines. Of which they did not develop,

2, furlough, of which the tax payer will pay for.

Anything else is political. So am out.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			personally I think the government have had just two successes.

1, vaccines. Of which they did not develop,

2, furlough, of which the tax payer will pay for.

Anything else is political. So am out.
		
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I never claimed that there was a long list of successes!😒


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It remains to be seen if the UK got it right, because the ongoing supply for the remaining first vax and the load of second vax is not secured, but even if it all works out, in my opinion the UK strategy placed an unnecessary over-dependence on the Oxford/AZ vaccine, which was risky. I find it difficult to imagine that a Merck/Oxford deal, or a greater emphasis on Pfizer would not have provided smoother supplies to both the UK and the EU. The EU has been massively let down by AZ whose delivery failures to them have been disastrous.

A national vaccination strategy to prevent tens of thousands of deaths is not a situation where it is OK to take unnecessary risks and then say 'Its OK, it worked out after all'.

But rather than troll, let us know your analysis of the situation.
		
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Blimey, Ethan - you give us many an insight into the technicalities and medical knowledge on Covid etc, which we appreciate, but you really need to allow others to express  a view contrary to your own without almost always adding a belittling sentence as an admonition for daring to disagree.
No way is Metalmickie being a troll.


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## srixon 1 (Mar 13, 2021)

I live in Dorset, my parents, both have their 80th birthday this year, live in Yorkshire. I usually visit a few times a year but have not been up to see them since December 2019. Covid sucks.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 13, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I never claimed that there was a long list of successes!😒
		
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👍  I never said you did.


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## drdel (Mar 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You may have experience in complex multi-national supply chains, but if you read above you will see that is not the issue. The issue is identifying the vaccine development programmes most likely to succeed and the companies most likely to deliver them. Have you a lot of experience of those too?

The people who do that in big pharma companies use reliable and experienced manufacturers. That is how you avoid supply chain vulnerability.

The vaccination programme is excellent, but that is due to the efforts of the NHS.
		
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I'm sorry to dare to challenge and rock your v.high horse- ìt will not happen again

We might get back to the less political (NB. lower case 'p') thread title?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			personally I think the government have had just two successes.

1, vaccines. Of which they did not develop,

2, furlough, of which the tax payer will pay for.

Anything else is political. So am out.
		
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Do you expect MPs to be developing vaccines, honestly!

Who do expect to pay for welfare benefits, tax is the only revinue available.


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## Ethan (Mar 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			I'm sorry to dare to challenge and rock your v.high horse- ìt will not happen again

We might get back to the less political (NB. lower case 'p') thread title?
		
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That is a wimp out. If you think what you were saying is correct, say so and tell me why. Instead you swan in, make it personal by telling me that what I am saying is just opinion, suggest you know more about complex supply chains, yet when I respond that this is not about supply chains, and suggest that backing reliable producers( who have already established supply chains) is wise, you fail to respond and instead dodge the issue. Is it political to discuss whether this is about supply chains and which companies have them and which ned to establish them? Don't be silly.


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## Ethan (Mar 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Blimey, Ethan - you give us many an insight into the technicalities and medical knowledge on Covid etc, which we appreciate, but you really need to allow others to express  a view contrary to your own without almost always adding a belittling sentence as an admonition for daring to disagree.
No way is Metalmickie being a troll.
		
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Raising a false and irrelevant, but knowingly divisive, issue while not adding anything to the discussion is trolling.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

@Ethan 
Please read Swinglowandslow’s post again
And please take in the comments

Knowing when to stop is an art worth learning 👍


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## Ethan (Mar 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Ethan
Please read Swinglowandslow’s post again
And please take in the comments

Knowing when to stop is an art worth learning 👍
		
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I did read it. I don't like the move where people move from making points to throwing in personal comments or straw men. If anyone disagrees with something I am saying, they should offer coherent arguments and they might persuade me to change my mind.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

And you need to accept that maybe they just have a different opinion to yours


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## Billysboots (Mar 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If anyone disagrees with something I am saying, they should offer coherent arguments and they might persuade me to change my mind.
		
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It’s not about people trying to persuade you to change your mind. It’s about contributors having contrasting opinions to yours. Why can’t you just accept that?

I was told not to “be silly” by you a week or so ago, and you’ve said exactly the same to someone else in the last 24 hours.

Not an insult likely to cause sleepless nights, I’ll grant you, but totally and utterly unnecessary, and moreover that sort of comment detracts from all the good points you make.


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## fenwayrich (Mar 14, 2021)

I'm with Ethan. Just because your horse appears to be leading the race doesn't necessarily mean that you were wise to back it, or that your investment was based on ethical principles. Ethan supports his opinions with evidence. No surprise that he responds when people question him without providing anything substantial to support their argument.

Just my opinion.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Me and Missis T have had our Oxford vaccines tonight, I was very impressed with the set up.  Missis T knew one of the nurses. She did her training with her back in 1980.* Anyway the nurse said quite a few folk have turned down the Oxford vaccine wanting the Pfizer one.*
I spoke to a good pal in Italy earlier today. She is 70, I mentioned we are having our vaccines today. She said she has registered with her local chemist that she wants the vaccine but the chemist does not have a clue when they will some vaccines in. She was not impressed at all.
		
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Perfectly understandable as there are several 'expert' opinions, to be found, suggesting it's the 'second class' option...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 14, 2021)

My first Mothers Day without a mother, quite sad.
G'Kids visiting in the garden later, life moves on and things will soon get better.


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## Beezerk (Mar 14, 2021)

Missus has her jabs booked in for next week, she's 4 years younger than me as well 😮


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Missus has her jabs booked in for next week, she's 4 years younger than me as well 😮
		
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That's what she told you....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Mar 14, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I'm with Ethan. Just because your horse appears to be leading the race doesn't necessarily mean that you were wise to back it, or that your investment was based on ethical principles. Ethan supports his opinions with evidence. No surprise that he responds when people question him without providing anything substantial to support their argument.

Just my opinion.
		
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I did not feel it necessary to  provide anything substantial in my initial post #17449 as I merely asked a question as to did he think the UK's vaccine strategy had failed. 

Sadly I received no direct answer.


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## Ethan (Mar 14, 2021)

MetalMickie said:



			I did not feel it necessary to  provide anything substantial in my initial post #17449 as I merely asked a question as to did he think the UK's vaccine strategy had failed.

Sadly I received no direct answer.
		
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You did receive a direct answer.

Let me repeat, for clarity.

The rollout of the vaccination by the NHS has been fantastic. I have been a first hand recipient of it and was impressed. Getting huge numbers done so fast has made a clear difference and is to be be applauded. I have also been a supporter of PHE/NHS test and trace rather than Serco. I am a massive NHS supporter. 

The strategy of ordering based heavily on UK production is a risky strategy and better balance could have been reached between reliable and dependable producers and parochial interests. AZ has already proven itself not to be such a producer. Further, the mRNAs are more reliable to make and can be more flexibly scaled, so are a safer bet. We should have ordered more of those. 

So it is a simplistic question to ask if the strategy has failed - for a start, it isn't over yet - but in my opinion there were too many levers built in which could, or could have, made failure more likely. Making a bad decision and getting lucky and getting away with it is not good leadership. 

Clear enough? Please feel free to challenge any elements of that.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 14, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Perfectly understandable as there are several 'expert' opinions, to be found, suggesting it's the 'second class' option...
		
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👍 Dropped off MIL pressies, Missis T mentioned to her Sis we have had first jab. A fair bit of the conversation was around the vaccine causing “ blood clots”. I had to point out there had also been cases reported where the vaccine had also helped in some cancer cases. It seems folk are more interested the negative side of the vaccine rather than it saves lives.


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## IainP (Mar 14, 2021)

Received 1st jab earlier, over at the Oxford footy stadium (Oxford AZ of course!).
Big operation, guess maybe 40+ people working in all. Booked on the site yesterday morning and there seemed loads of spare capacity, could have chosen loads of other hours & times - but did seem pretty busy when there so hard to judge what the max is.
As was discussed here, as long as no one deserving is missing out, then I feel we should do our bit to keep the throughput up by taking slots and increase the % population vaccinated.


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## drdel (Mar 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You did receive a direct answer.

Let me repeat, for clarity.

The rollout of the vaccination by the NHS has been fantastic. I have been a first hand recipient of it and was impressed. Getting huge numbers done so fast has made a clear difference and is to be be applauded. I have also been a supporter of PHE/NHS test and trace rather than Serco. I am a massive NHS supporter.

The strategy of ordering based heavily on UK production is a risky strategy and better balance could have been reached between reliable and dependable producers and parochial interests. AZ has already proven itself not to be such a producer. Further, the mRNAs are more reliable to make and can be more flexibly scaled, so are a safer bet. We should have ordered more of those.

So it is a simplistic question to ask if the strategy has failed - for a start, it isn't over yet - but in my opinion there were too many levers built in which could, or could have, made failure more likely. Making a bad decision and getting lucky and getting away with it is not good leadership.

Clear enough? Please feel free to challenge any elements of that.
		
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Useful hint to owners of dog with bone "Drop it"!


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## chellie (Mar 14, 2021)

HID gets his first vaccination this afternoon.


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## Ethan (Mar 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			Useful hint to owners of dog with bone "Drop it"!
		
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You try it first. If you make a direct point aimed at me, you will get a response. You may like it. You may not. But either way you will probably deflect and not address the point.


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## Ethan (Mar 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			👍 Dropped off MIL pressies, Missis T mentioned to her Sis we have had first jab. A fair bit of the conversation was around the vaccine causing “ blood clots”. I had to point out there had also been cases reported where the vaccine had also helped in some cancer cases. It seems folk are more interested the negative side of the vaccine rather than it saves lives.
		
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It almost certainly has no relationship to blood clots. Covid can cause blood clots, though. It is reasonable to suspend using a medicine briefly while looking into reports like this. It happens fairly often, just usually not on the front page of the papers.


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## 4LEX (Mar 14, 2021)

Had mine a few weeks ago due to being at the doctors for an unrelated issue, coincided with the end of a vaccination session. Was offered it and took it. Early 30's and had a really sore arm for a week, chills and tiredness. Worth it


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## Tashyboy (Mar 14, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Had mine a few weeks ago due to being at the doctors for an unrelated issue, coincided with the end of a vaccination session. Was offered it and took it. Early 30's and had a really sore arm for a week, chills and tiredness. Worth it 

Click to expand...

Me and Missis T had it last night as did daughter. She’s a copper at work and the call went out that there’s vaccines left over so if there’s any bobbies anywhere near. Call in. So am as right as rain, Missis T has done nowt but sleep all day and has the chills, daughter is shattered.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 14, 2021)

Mrs BiM and I got jabbed on Friday, Oxford AZ; Mrs BiM sees to have suffered a bit of a gastric reaction, which we believe is what she suffered from when she caught Covid.  I have nothing to report other than a sore arm at the injection site.

Nurse doing the jab said they have had a few suggesting they would have preferred the Pfizer, but no actual refusals.  Whoever gave the analogy regarding the first lifeboat, it made her smile & may be used again.

The whole process took a little longer than suggested but was smooth & well organised.  Well done the NHS and the volunteers.


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## Imurg (Mar 14, 2021)

My episode of feeling crap seems to have passed after a decent night's sleep 
Sore arm still but otherwise tickety  boo


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 14, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM and I got jabbed on Friday, Oxford AZ; Mrs BiM sees to have suffered a bit of a gastric reaction, which we believe is what she suffered from when she caught Covid.*  I have nothing to report other than a sore arm at the injection site.*

Nurse doing the jab said they have had a few suggesting they would have preferred the Pfizer, but no actual refusals.  Whoever gave the analogy regarding the first lifeboat, it made her smile & may be used again.

The whole process took a little longer than suggested but was smooth & well organised.  Well done the NHS and the volunteers. 

Click to expand...

What a sore arm at the church hall ???

I’ll get my coat .........again 😎


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## 4LEX (Mar 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Me and Missis T had it last night as did daughter. She’s a copper at work and the call went out that there’s vaccines left over so if there’s any bobbies anywhere near. Call in. So am as right as rain, Missis T has done nowt but sleep all day and has the chills, daughter is shattered.
		
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Ah that's great to hear you've all had it. Police should be higher up the list IMO. Hope you've been looking after them both or was it a takeway?! I had the chills for 24 hours but they went quite fast.


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## 4LEX (Mar 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			What a sore arm at the church hall ???

I’ll get my coat .........again 😎
		
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## D-S (Mar 14, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371186406576504832


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## larmen (Mar 14, 2021)

Even if it would give PE, that’s roughly 1 in a million based on the numbers.
People seem to be taken paracetamol with the vaccine, try Aspirin then.

And based on the covid recovery descriptions, some people seemed to have developed PE during recovery of covid as well.


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## hovis (Mar 14, 2021)

I'm no conspiracy theorists but as soon as astrazeneca said they was making the vacine at non profit I said to my colleagues "they'll find a way to discredit astrazeneca" so people buy their drugs.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 14, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Ah that's great to hear you've all had it. Police should be higher up the list IMO. Hope you've been looking after them both or was it a takeway?! I had the chills for 24 hours but they went quite fast.
		
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Prepped a lovely Sunday dinner for Missis T, I was cooking it as soon we we got back from parents. Got to me mums and she was making pork dripping fat ( honest to god) the smell was sickening. After 10 mins, with me mending the toilet seat in that time, Missis T said “ we have to go” she did not feel well. We got home and she fell asleep from 1-5 pm. She has had a salad butty with today’s dinner tomorrow.😁👍


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## 4LEX (Mar 14, 2021)

If you take a 1 million people over 60 who have taken the vaccine, and 1 million who haven't. Due to the age and numbers they'll be natural incidents of clots, heart attacks and other issues on both sides. The difference is one is newsworthy, the other isn't.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2021)

I truly don't believe Germany is playing mind [political] games in calling a halt to using the AZ jab... 
Fairly certain it'll be data driven... They need an out from Covid just the same as the rest of us do...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 15, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I truly don't believe Germany is playing mind [political] games in calling a halt to using the AZ jab...
Fairly certain it'll be data driven... They need an out from Covid just the same as the rest of us do...
		
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My attitude is if they dont want it, fine, more for us


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371186406576504832

Click to expand...

Like I said above, the likelihood is that there is indeed no relationship here, but in my opinion, when reports come in to a respected regulator, they should be taken seriously and evaluated, because serious safety issues sometimes start with a few reports. 

There is also a difference looking at the broad data and saying that the rate of this event is no higher than the unvaccinated population, and dealing with an event which has unusual features and trying to figure out what is going on. 

It is a bit like saying that pilot error rarely causes plane crashes, but if a plane does crash, the possibility it was pilot error is a real one. The two statements are perfectly compatible. 

Even if a safety link between vaccine and the event is found (and I repeat I think that is unlikely,. and if it occurs it is very rare), they doesn't mean the benefit-risk of the vaccine is materially changed.


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			I truly don't believe Germany is playing mind [political] games in calling a halt to using the AZ jab...
Fairly certain it'll be data driven... They need an out from Covid just the same as the rest of us do...
		
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I am sure they are not. The German regulator is known to be a bit pernickety. I have just finished dealing with a set of queries from them on a clinical trial in a totally different condition, and involving an EU company's EU-made product. Exactly the same approach. They are thorough, cautious and precise.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 15, 2021)




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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 35615

Click to expand...

Pahahahahahahahaha


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## spongebob59 (Mar 15, 2021)

Reports that EU is in talks to place an order of Russia Sputnik vaccine, amid AstraZeneca 'safety fears'. Even though European Medical Agency has expressed concerns about lack of data for Sputnik, and Brussels is on the record suggesting Russian jab is a propaganda tool. Just wow.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 35615

Click to expand...

Plank. (No, not you Phil... )


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## AmandaJR (Mar 15, 2021)

My jab is tomorrow. Wondering if the lastest scares on AZ will result in some no-shows. More for us I say and if they come back for more in the future we should tell them we're giving it away to countries that can't afford it. They won't like it up em!


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## hovis (Mar 15, 2021)

I sure hope that come summer the EU look across at us all out and about having fun whilst they're in their 3rd lockdown


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 15, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			My jab is tomorrow. Wondering if the lastest scares on AZ will result in some no-shows. More for us I say and if they come back for more in the future we should tell them we're giving it away to countries that can't afford it. They won't like it up em!
		
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I had my vaccine today - was the AZ 

They said a few asked questions but no one turned it down so far


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 15, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			My jab is tomorrow. Wondering if the lastest scares on AZ will result in some no-shows. More for us I say and if they come back for more in the future we should tell them we're giving it away to countries that can't afford it. They won't like it up em!
		
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Do you think they're postponing vaccinations with AZ because they're making some kind of gesture because it's British?


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

hovis said:



			I sure hope that come summer the EU look across at us all out and about having fun whilst they're in their 3rd lockdown
		
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Would rather look across to the EU and see that we are all on the way to cracking this.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 15, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you think they're postponing vaccinations with AZ because they're making some kind of gesture because it's British?
		
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It wouldn't surprise me. Or at least to deflect from their poor vaccine roll out.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you think they're postponing vaccinations with AZ because they're making some kind of gesture because it's British?
		
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Dangerous game listening to the reaction in Italy. The every day folk just want a vaccine


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## MegaSteve (Mar 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Would rather look across to the EU and see that we are all on the way to cracking this.
		
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Yep, it shouldn't be a case of them and us...


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 15, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			It wouldn't surprise me. Or at least to deflect from their poor vaccine roll out.
		
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They have genuine clinical concerns and with other options available are putting it on hold until they've got answers.


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## IainP (Mar 15, 2021)

As Ethan mentioned, no problem with being cautious and assessing.
This is being reported (admittedly by AZ)

The data supplied by AstraZeneca shows there have been 37 reports of blood clots among the 17m people across Europe who have been given the vaccine.

I couldn't locate the AZ by country stats, but on the basis the UK has vaccinated the most I think we can assume the same applies for AZ. I also couldn't locate the breakdown of clots per country.

Strange times.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			My jab is tomorrow. Wondering if the lastest scares on AZ will result in some no-shows. More for us I say and if they come back for more in the future we should tell them we're giving it away to countries that can't afford it. They won't like it up em!
		
Click to expand...

The numbers I have seen are 40 cases of blood clots in 17,000,000 jabs which if correct is 0.00024% of those jabbed.  I'm not seeing that as a problem, but I'm not medically trained.  

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you think they're postponing vaccinations with AZ because they're making some kind of gesture because it's British?
		
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No, they aren't. AZ is half-Swedish, actually, the Astra part. It beggars belief that the Scandos and the Dutch, both pretty anglophile, or the Germans, quite anglophile and incredibly rational, would do so.  

I did a longer post above saying that this is both normal practice for regulators and what we should expect. The opposite question is why is the UK seemingly so relaxed about it. Most serious drug safety problems begin with a trickle of cases, before it is discovered that a whole lot more were not reported until people looked back at some cases they assumed were just normal for older people.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 15, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The numbers I have seen are 40 cases of blood clots in 17,000,000 jabs which if correct is 0.00024% of those jabbed.  I'm not seeing that as a problem, but I'm not medically trained. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542

Click to expand...

Me either but the little bits I have read suggest it's no more than normal in that number of the general population (especially the age groups vaccinated so far). It's not made me have any concerns whatsoever.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Me either but the little bits I have read suggest it's no more than normal in that number of the general population (especially the age groups vaccinated so far). It's not made me have any concerns whatsoever.
		
Click to expand...

No point me worrying about it; it's already in there and there's no chance of finding the 5ml in something this size & removing it!


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No, they aren't. AZ is half-Swedish, actually, the Astra part. It beggars belief that the Scandos and the Dutch, both pretty anglophile, or the Germans, quite anglophile and incredibly rational, would do so. 

I did a longer post above saying that this is both normal practice for regulators and what we should expect. The opposite question is why is the UK seemingly so relaxed about it. Most serious drug safety problems begin with a trickle of cases, before it is discovered that a whole lot more were not reported until people looked back at some cases they assumed were just normal for older people.
		
Click to expand...

Precisely. I find it staggering that it's been suggested it's a concerted effort by European countries to rubbish the good 'ol British vaccine and the stick right up em when it's found to be safe. They're just doing what any medicine's regulatory body should do.
Jingoism is alive and well though I expected better from the originator.


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The numbers I have seen are 40 cases of blood clots in 17,000,000 jabs which if correct is 0.00024% of those jabbed.  I'm not seeing that as a problem, but I'm not medically trained. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542

Click to expand...

That is 40 cases reported to AZ, but reporting rates are often low. Most doctors rarely fill in a yellow card (the reporting system) for something they are not expecting, which unfortunately is the opposite of what you want. You want the unusual stuff reported. 

One issue is that if a medicine causes blood clots, it may cause a range of other sort of damage, small clots in kidney, heart vessels, brain not immediately recognised as being a clotting problem, so if you see people with a blue foot because of a clot in a leg artery, that is clear enough, but renal failures, heart attacks and strokes might not be identified as caused by clots as such. Vascular effects are taken very seriously by most authorities.


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2021)

Do we know how soon these clots show?


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Do we know how soon these clots show?
		
Click to expand...

The chances are that they are unrelated to the vax, the debate really is more about whether it is reasonable to pause and assess the events, which I think is basic regulatory oversight, rather than whether it is a true signal. The majority of these adverse event investigations end up negative, but you don't know at the start which one will or won't. 

It is plausible, because the vax induces an immune response and part of that is inflammatory and could cause inflammation in vessels. The AZ uses a viral vector which can itself induce an additional immune response and an inflammatory response. However, a problem is very unlikely, you are more likely to crash your car on the way to the vax centre, and the harm caused by Covid is considerably greater. But the regulators are right to take it seriously. 

I expect that they will give an all-clear by the end of the week or soon after.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 15, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371535408522215424


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## Slime (Mar 15, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The numbers I have seen are* 40 cases of blood clots in 17,000,000 jabs* which if correct is 0.00024% of those jabbed.  I'm not seeing that as a problem, but I'm not medically trained. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542

Click to expand...


And if none of those 17,000,000 had been jabbed how many may have got blood clots, (possibly 40), how many may have died of Covid, (possibly more than 40), and how many people may they have passed the virus on to, (possibly tens of thousands)?


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371535408522215424

Click to expand...

The well known epidemiologist Iain Dale. I wonder what point he is making?. 

One obvious answer could be that the age-mix of people who have received Pfizer is older than those who received AZ, so the expected background rates of clots, an age-related phenomenon, is also different, and in comparison the true risk level with Pfizer is actually lower.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

One for the young pups

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56407251


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

Slime said:



			And if none of those 17,000,000 had been jabbed how many may have got blood clots, (possibly 40), how many may have died of Covid, (possibly more than 40), and how many people may they have passed the virus on to, (possibly tens of thousands)?
		
Click to expand...

Possibly 40, a lot more and who knows, respectively. But the process for sorting out adverse events starts with "Is this event related to taking the medicine?". The bit you are getting at comes later and is the "OK, there is a tiny extra risk. Is it still worth it?". Not that I am saying I think there IS a tiny extra risk, but even if there were, it wouldn't change the benefit-risk. Therefore, I expect a swift conclusion to this which results in reinstatement and business as usual.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The well known epidemiologist Iain Dale. I wonder what point he is making?. 

One obvious answer could be that the age-mix of people who have received Pfizer is older than those who received AZ, so the expected background rates of clots, an age-related phenomenon, is also different, and in comparison the true risk level with Pfizer is actually lower.
		
Click to expand...

I think he was asking why the AZ vaccine is being singled out on this issue by the EU.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 15, 2021)

Portugal and Mauritius removed from red travel ban list. Whats the chances of slab sorting out a forum meet in Mauritius 😁


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 15, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I think he was asking why the AZ vaccine is being singled out on this issue by the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Would he have cared if it wasn't a British vaccine and the EU?


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I think he was asking why the AZ vaccine is being singled out on this issue by the EU.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, obviously. It is a load of rubbish. it isn't even the EU that is doing this - if you recall they are in dispute with AZ over the repeated delivery shortfalls. 

The EMA, whose policy was largely shaped by the MHRA when the UK was in the EMA, is a rational regulator, and approved the vaccine without restriction. Recent actions have been by country level regulators, the Scandos and Dutch being the most anglophile in Europe, so hardly making any self-injurious political points. And the actions were exactly what you would expect a regulator to do.


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## larmen (Mar 15, 2021)

If the EU is halting AZ and therefore not using it, are they at least releasing the shipment to Australia which they stopped?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Possibly 40, a lot more and who knows, respectively. But the process for sorting out adverse events starts with "Is this event related to taking the medicine?". The bit you are getting at comes later and is the "OK, there is a tiny extra risk. Is it still worth it?". Not that I am saying I think there IS a tiny extra risk, but even if there were, it wouldn't change the benefit-risk. Therefore, I expect a swift conclusion to this which results in reinstatement and business as usual.
		
Click to expand...

I guess that if a check was carried out on the numbers vaccinated there would be various health conditions happening, some mild, some serious and some fatal. The question is what would be a normal expectation among these numbers (and as you suggest, their age groups). Surely this could be a variatable stop start operation.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

So who’s right in the European issue, those that are trained and who’s purpose is to authorize the use of medication and vaccine or individual governments. If it’s governments why bother having these organizations.

The harm this could do to confidence of individuals could be significant.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, obviously. It is a load of rubbish. it isn't even the EU that is doing this - if you recall they are in dispute with AZ over the repeated delivery shortfalls.

The EMA, whose policy was largely shaped by the MHRA when the UK was in the EMA, is a rational regulator, and approved the vaccine without restriction. Recent actions have been by country level regulators, the Scandos and Dutch being the most anglophile in Europe, so hardly making any self-injurious political points. *And the actions were exactly what you would expect a regulator to do.*

Click to expand...

Any idea why they haven't also paused the Pfizer jabs? From the comparisons given online it seems as though the numbers are pretty much the same for both AZ and Pfizer in terms of blood clots. Is there a reason to pause AZ and not Pfizer?

EDIT - by comparisons given online I mean in news stories such as on the BBC News website rather than from random Twitter posts.


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Any idea why they haven't also paused the Pfizer jabs? From the comparisons given online it seems as though the numbers are pretty much the same for both AZ and Pfizer in terms of blood clots. Is there a reason to pause AZ and not Pfizer?

EDIT - by comparisons given online I mean in news stories such as on the BBC News website rather than from random Twitter posts.
		
Click to expand...

The regulator will look at any signal of an adverse event, and they are acting surveilling all the vaccine data they get. I don't know if they are concerned about Pfizer or not, but I am pretty sure they are not acting in a partisan manner. As I said before, the demographics, and therefore expected risk for people treated with either vaccine may be, and most likely is, different.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2021)

Interesting explanation.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Interesting explanation.






Click to expand...

 From Rowan and Martin's laugh In, Where Goldie Hawn started out, check out the videos a very funny series. Especially the Very Interesting sketches.


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## larmen (Mar 16, 2021)

Over 50s might be fine (1st shot) by the end of this month. That ‘finishes’ the priority groups.

Is it ‘free for all’ after that, or are they going to continue to go down in 5s? Did Boris or anyone else say something to anything after the top 9?


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## Slab (Mar 16, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Portugal and* Mauritius removed from red travel ban list.* Whats the chances of slab sorting out a forum meet in Mauritius 😁
		
Click to expand...

Well that's just mental
So we had no cases or lockdown for 9 months and were still put on the initial red list 
Last week we have a mini outbreak (now at 135 cases) following a quarantine breech, we're back under lockdown, the airport is shut and we're off the UK red list!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2021)

Slab said:



			Well that's just mental
So we had no cases or lockdown for 9 months and were still put on the initial red list 
Last week we have a mini outbreak (now at 135 cases) following a quarantine breech, we're back under lockdown, the airport is shut and we're off the UK red list!  

Click to expand...

Also Portugal has massive links to Brazil , thought they were black balled


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## patricks148 (Mar 16, 2021)

One of my reg Playing partners is a GP and the first thing he said yesterday on the tee was what a load of rubbish it was some countrys stopping using the AZ vac due tp blood clots. And that the target group getting the vac were more liable to get blood clots anyway and that that number of vacs agaist BC was prob lower than the ave who would get them anyway.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			So who’s right in the European issue, those that are trained and who’s purpose is to authorize the use of medication and vaccine or individual governments. If it’s governments why bother having these organizations.

The harm this could do to confidence of individuals could be significant.
		
Click to expand...


This whole sorry episode is a perfect example of my dislike for having so many layers of bureaucracy interfering with our everyday lives... Too many cooks and all that...


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## backwoodsman (Mar 16, 2021)

Slab said:



			Well that's just mental
So we had no cases or lockdown for 9 months and were still put on the initial red list 
Last week we have a mini outbreak (now at 135 cases) following a quarantine breech, we're back under lockdown, the airport is shut and we're off the UK red list!  

Click to expand...

I suppose you could look at it as there's no point in us having you on the "banned list' if we cant go there anyway ?


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 16, 2021)

As a former scientist who is used to pouring over reams of data the issue is that this whole process is being played out in real time to the public. One potential reason for these countries putting the AZ vaccine on hold could be that although normal numbers of thrombotic events have been registered they may have all fallen within a very specific cohort which would be classed unusual. 
This will probably end up being a statistical anomaly but as happens in all drug trials and early stage release the scrutiny is rigorous and very proactive.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			So who’s right in the European issue, those that are trained and who’s purpose is to authorize the use of medication and vaccine or individual governments. If it’s governments why bother having these organizations.

The harm this could do to confidence of individuals could be significant.
		
Click to expand...

I guess there some merit in being (possibly over) cautious early, rather than being late and finding yourself in the mire. (Now, if only someone had thought of that 12 months ago?)


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 16, 2021)

Slab said:



			Well that's just mental
So we had no cases or lockdown for 9 months and were still put on the initial red list 
Last week we have a mini outbreak (now at 135 cases) following a quarantine breech, we're back under lockdown, the airport is shut and we're off the UK red list!  

Click to expand...

Yes, doesn't "compute" does it? 

Don't suppose you mean Madeira and not Mauritius,  Tash?
Given the "colonial" link history?


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2021)




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## Slab (Mar 16, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I suppose you could look at it as there's no point in us having you on the "banned list' if we cant go there anyway ? 

Click to expand...

I doubt we're witnessing that level of logic being applied to the decision


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## Slab (Mar 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, doesn't "compute" does it?

Don't suppose you mean Madeira and not Mauritius,  Tash?
Given the "colonial" link history?
		
Click to expand...

definitely Mauritius 
it was weird we were on the initial uk list (since there was no covid here and a mandatory quarantine for the trickle of inbound travelers) 
Despite being 2000 miles away I suspect someone realised we're part of continental africa and the word africa also appears in South Africa and didn't they read somewhere about a covid strain in South Africa.... 2 + 2 make 7     best to stick em on the list


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## Tashyboy (Mar 16, 2021)

Slab said:



			Well that's just mental
So we had no cases or lockdown for 9 months and were still put on the initial red list 
Last week we have a mini outbreak (now at 135 cases) following a quarantine breech, we're back under lockdown, the airport is shut and we're off the UK red list!  

Click to expand...

Looks like the forum meet is off ☹️ Stay safe slab


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## Slab (Mar 16, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Looks like the forum meet is off ☹️ Stay safe slab
		
Click to expand...

Waiting for my turn to get the jab, but.... the lawyers are even ahead of me in the Q


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 16, 2021)

Slab said:



			Waiting for my turn to get the jab, but.... the lawyers are even ahead of me in the Q 

Click to expand...

Wow, what are you then, a politician?


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## D-S (Mar 16, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371574236473561092


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2021)

Mrs jabbed this morning AZ


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2021)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371574236473561092

Click to expand...

Let me help unbaffle them, Ros.

Sky News earlier.

_Pause on Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccinations are due to the rare nature of the side effects - not the number - says head of France's vaccine programme _

_Alain Fischer has said the moves from several countries to temporarily halt use of the vaccine was due to "somewhat atypical thrombosis anomalies". _

_"It is reasonable, when the alerts are clearly significant – more by their atypical nature than by their number, which remains very low in relation to the number of people vaccinated – for national health authorities to be cautious," the French vaccine head told local radio. _

_He continued that some people given the vaccine had symptoms not usually seen in "'classic' pulmonary embolisms" that are often "only associated with serious illnesses". _

_Denmark, which has also suspended the jab's use, said it had seen "highly unusual" symptoms in a 60-year-old recipient who died from a blood clot. _

_Meanwhile, Norway spoke of "unusual symptoms" in three people under 50 being treated in hospital, as two health workers - both aged under 50 and thought to be fit and healthy - died of brain haemorrhages. _

_The country's national medicines agency said it could "neither confirm nor exclude that it has something to do with the vaccine". _

_Scientists have pointed out that COVID-19 infection is known to cause blood clotting, while there is no evidence so far of a causal link from the vaccine. _


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## AmandaJR (Mar 16, 2021)

Had my vaccine yoday - AZ as expected. All fine although long queue and about an hour after my appointment time before I got stuck. Not much else to do with my time though!


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## spongebob59 (Mar 16, 2021)

BREAKING: The European Union’s medicines regulator has said there is “no indication” that AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine is the cause of reported blood clots.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

My Mrs is having to keep close to the news as the breast cancer helpline she works on is getting lots of calls from women with questions and concerns over the vaccines - and so on news of last couple of days on the AZ vaccine and blot clots in context of tumours; chemo and maintenance drugs...

Of course the charity has experts assessing and advising the helpline nursing team - but my Mrs has to understand the concerns being expressed and how she should answer related questions.  And she asks me what I think of what she has to say - asks me how it sounds...what I might think if I asked the question...and got the answer she is to give...quite stressful actually.


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## spongebob59 (Mar 16, 2021)

🚨BREAKING: France is considering suing AstraZeneca over a lack of vaccine deliveries, despite the country suspending the use of the jab

Via @spectator https://t.co/wrXdd1C1D8


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 16, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			🚨BREAKING: France is considering suing AstraZeneca over a lack of vaccine deliveries, despite the country suspending the use of the jab
		
Click to expand...

That sounds like an episode of Parks & Rec


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			🚨BREAKING: France is considering suing AstraZeneca over a lack of vaccine deliveries, despite the country suspending the use of the jab

Via @spectator https://t.co/wrXdd1C1D8

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that legally they could sue them anyway. As far as I understand it the EU negotiated with AZ over vaccine supplies and signed the contract for XX million doses which would then be shared out between EU countries. France, as an individual country, doesn't have a contract with AZ so I'm not sure that they can sue them.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure that legally they could sue them anyway. As far as I understand it the EU negotiated with AZ over vaccine supplies and signed the contract for XX million doses which would then be shared out between EU countries. France, as an individual country, doesn't have a contract with AZ so I'm not sure that they can sue them.
		
Click to expand...


But the 'story' fits perfectly with the diarrhea the spectator spews...


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			BREAKING: The European Union’s medicines regulator has said there is “no indication” that AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine is the cause of reported blood clots.
		
Click to expand...

But won’t give a final decision until Thursday. Hopefully none will go past the shelf life while indecision meets indecision.


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs is having to keep close to the news as the breast cancer helpline she works on is getting lots of calls from women with questions and concerns over the vaccines - and so on news of last couple of days on the AZ vaccine and blot clots in context of tumours; chemo and maintenance drugs...

Of course the charity has experts assessing and advising the helpline nursing team - but my Mrs has to understand the concerns being expressed and how she should answer related questions.  And she asks me what I think of what she has to say - asks me how it sounds...what I might think if I asked the question...and got the answer she is to give...quite stressful actually.

Click to expand...

I would suggest she says that the issue is one of proportion. The risk of these clots in the normal population is very low. it is not known if the vaccine increases that risk, but if it does, it only raises it to a number which is still very low. The risks of Covid, on the other hand can be very high if you are older or have other health issues. There is really no comparison between the two risks, so anyone offered the vaccine should accept it, particularly those at higher risk. The parallel is air safet. People get very concerned about air safety, but plane crashes are very very rare. There is more risk driving to the airport. Even so, massive effort goes into ensuring air safety and every crash receives huge attention and investigation. Planes are very safe, and so are these vaccines. Accept the first one you are offered.


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			But won’t give a final decision until Thursday. Hopefully none will go past the shelf life while indecision meets indecision.
		
Click to expand...

It won't. Shelf life, if stored properly, is long, and getting longer as increasing time alongs longer testing.


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## D-S (Mar 16, 2021)

I feel for the people making these decisions, weighing up ‘pausing’ vaccination of several million people across 11 countries for 1-2 weeks (I think Ireland have stopped using AZ until 29/3) versus the potential side effects. Across 11 countries that might be a lot of deaths in due course. There is an inherent gamble either way.


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## GB72 (Mar 16, 2021)

I may be wrong but I would have thought that situations like this go on all the time with medication, albeit not in the face of a global pandemic and not on the front pages of the national newspapers who seem determined to make this a 'brexit' thing. Still happy to take whatever vaccine I am offered when my turn eventually comes. 

Any idea when the other vaccines are starting to be distributed as I guess that may help up the pace even more.


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## D-S (Mar 16, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371832521852395523


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## MegaSteve (Mar 16, 2021)

Our local hospital currently has 43 covid patients... Well down from a peak of 170+...


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## larmen (Mar 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Any idea when the other vaccines are starting to be distributed as I guess that may help up the pace even more.
		
Click to expand...

No idea about other vaccines but I read yesterday that the UK wants to ramp up to 4 million doses a week from now on.
Of course, some of that would be 2nd doses going forward, but the speed of 1st doses shoul be maintained as they double up the doses per week numbers.
Also, moderne is now testing on children in the US.

It all seems to go in the right direction.


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## D-S (Mar 16, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Our local hospital currently has 43 covid patients... Well down from a peak of 170+...
		
Click to expand...

Covid hospitalisations peaked at 39,248 on 18/1 down to 8,029 on 11/3.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 16, 2021)

Starting to come out of lockdown quite quickly now in Scotland.
Covid in Scotland: Travel restrictions end on 26 April - BBC News


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## bobmac (Mar 16, 2021)

This is the site I check on most days

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The chances are that they are unrelated to the vax, the debate really is more about whether it is reasonable to pause and assess the events, which I think is basic regulatory oversight, rather than whether it is a true signal. The majority of these adverse event investigations end up negative, but you don't know at the start which one will or won't.

It is plausible, because the vax induces an immune response and part of that is inflammatory and could cause inflammation in vessels. The AZ uses a viral vector which can itself induce an additional immune response and an inflammatory response. However, a problem is very unlikely, you are more likely to crash your car on the way to the vax centre, and the harm caused by Covid is considerably greater. But the regulators are right to take it seriously.

*I expect that they will give an all-clear by the end of the week or soon after.*

Click to expand...



Ethan. How can they find out so quickly that the vaccine does or does not give 
People blood clots?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I would suggest she says that the issue is one of proportion. The risk of these clots in the normal population is very low. it is not known if the vaccine increases that risk, but if it does, it only raises it to a number which is still very low. The risks of Covid, on the other hand can be very high if you are older or have other health issues. There is really no comparison between the two risks, so anyone offered the vaccine should accept it, particularly those at higher risk. The parallel is air safet. People get very concerned about air safety, but plane crashes are very very rare. There is more risk driving to the airport. Even so, massive effort goes into ensuring air safety and every crash receives huge attention and investigation. Planes are very safe, and so are these vaccines. Accept the first one you are offered.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks @Ethan

So we sat down for lunch an hour ago - and this morning's difficult call was in respect the reported reduced immune response after being given the Pfizer jab in cancer patients with tumours .  She knows the study was small and the age group was elderly and that everything in respect of the vaccines and side-effects etc is under study and review.  But the caller wanted to know exactly the size of the study; details of the characteristics and age ranges of the participants; the nature of the tumours; relationship with chemo drugs; the impact of the gap between 1st and 2nd Pfizer jab etc.   Really detailed stuff.

And to top it all the caller's concern was in respect of prostate cancer.  My wife's a breast cancer nurse specialist not an oncologist...she finds it deeply frustrating the expectation of callers that a breast cancer charity helpline should have all this sort of information to hand; and to be able to explain it all in detail etc. and for prostate cancer...but she can cope with that - the big problem for her is that she worries that that the caller will log a complaint that my wife was unable to answer her questions...and that is stressful...


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks @Ethan

So we sat down for lunch an hour ago - and this morning's difficult call was in respect the reported reduced immune response after being given the Pfizer jab in cancer patients with tumours .  She knows the study was small and the age group was elderly and that everything in respect of the vaccines and side-effects etc is under study and review.  But the caller wanted to know exactly the size of the study; details of the characteristics and age ranges of the participants; the nature of the tumours; relationship with chemo drugs; the impact of the gap between 1st and 2nd Pfizer jab etc.   Really detailed stuff.

And to top it all the caller's concern was in respect of prostate cancer.  My wife's a breast cancer nurse specialist not an oncologist...she finds it deeply frustrating the expectation of callers that a breast cancer charity helpline should have all this sort of information to hand; and to be able to explain it all in detail etc. and for prostate cancer...but she can cope with that - the big problem for her is that she worries that that the caller will log a complaint that my wife was unable to answer her questions...and that is stressful...
		
Click to expand...

If the caller logs a complaint that your wife couldn't answer, surely the recipient/investigator of the complaint will know that it in no way pertains to any fault on your wife's part, and that the caller  is making an irrelevant ( to the charity) complaint.
The reasons you list as to why this is , will be,( should be ), explained to the caller and there's an end to it.
Your wife , and yourself , are worrying unnecessarily.
That said, I can see why a cancer sufferer worried as to whether their jab is protecting them, may call a cancer helpline. That's all they may see, cancer helpline, not realising that the words prostate and breast make all the difference😊

As an aside, I saw the Dr who did  this research about the limited effectiveness of the jab in cancer sufferers with lowered immunities- presumably because of the treatments they are on-.
She was very cogent and clear and it was obvious that the authorities should urgently act to have the research ratified or otherwise, and if she was right, then the second dose for those patients should be given ASAP- like , yesterday!
Seems like the first dose gave only 39 per cent protection, but that went up to 90 per cent after the second dose.


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks @Ethan

So we sat down for lunch an hour ago - and this morning's difficult call was in respect the reported reduced immune response after being given the Pfizer jab in cancer patients with tumours .  She knows the study was small and the age group was elderly and that everything in respect of the vaccines and side-effects etc is under study and review.  But the caller wanted to know exactly the size of the study; details of the characteristics and age ranges of the participants; the nature of the tumours; relationship with chemo drugs; the impact of the gap between 1st and 2nd Pfizer jab etc.   Really detailed stuff.

And to top it all the caller's concern was in respect of prostate cancer.  My wife's a breast cancer nurse specialist not an oncologist...she finds it deeply frustrating the expectation of callers that a breast cancer charity helpline should have all this sort of information to hand; and to be able to explain it all in detail etc. and for prostate cancer...but she can cope with that - the big problem for her is that she worries that that the caller will log a complaint that my wife was unable to answer her questions...and that is stressful...
		
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Cancer patients are a wide ranging group and some of the effects vary between the different types, and where people are in their journey. It isn't surprising that some cancer patients have a reduced response to vaccination, particularly right after chemo, say. Their immune system needs to be responsive to make the vaccine effective and if it is not responding fully it will affect the protection from the vaccine. But there will still be some response. In HIV patients, who also have a reduced immune response, fewer of them didn't get Covid but many still got the effect of a much milder course. 

Much of the stuff the caller is asking is not full tested, and is really questions for her (or her relative's) oncologist.


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Ethan. How can they find out so quickly that the vaccine does or does not give
People blood clots?
		
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They will look at it from both ends. One is looking at the broad population to see whether there is a noticeable spike in clot-related reports overall. There does not appear to be a major effect, although the Pfizer and AZ vaccines may have been given to different populations with different background risks. 

The other side is looking at the individual cases and seeing if there is anything unusual about them, characteristic features of drug-related effects (there are some cardinal features), whether the patient type is typical for this event and so on. If something weird has been observed, and some reports suggest the cases had unusual clinical features, then that points to something new being involved. 

The background concern is not whether an odd person here or there among millions gets a weird side effect - it happens, but whether these cases are the start of a flood of cases. I had this in a clinical trial of several thousand patients where a couple of patients receiving quite a powerful medicine developed a nasty drug related side effect. These two patients were among the longest serving in the study, so our concern was that there was a time-dependent effect and loads more patients might get the same in time. So we stopped a £100 million clinical programme and cancelled the approval application. It probably cost the company billions overall in revenue as well as the share price crashing when it was announced.


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## Old Skier (Mar 16, 2021)

Italians not happy:

In Italy, the director general of the medicines authority called the decision to suspend the vaccine "political".
Nicola Magrini told Italian daily newspaper la Repubblica that the vaccine was safe and that the benefit to risk ratio of the jab was "widely positive".

He may have a point if the decision isn’t being made by the medical profession.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If the caller logs a complaint that your wife couldn't answer, surely the recipient/investigator of the complaint will know that it in no way pertains to any fault on your wife's part, and that the caller  is making an irrelevant ( to the charity) complaint.
The reasons you list as to why this is , will be,( should be ), explained to the caller and there's an end to it.
Your wife , and yourself , are worrying unnecessarily.
That said, I can see why a cancer sufferer worried as to whether their jab is protecting them, may call a cancer helpline. That's all they may see, cancer helpline, not realising that the words prostate and breast make all the difference😊

As an aside, I saw the Dr who did  this research about the limited effectiveness of the jab in cancer sufferers with lowered immunities- presumably because of the treatments they are on-.
She was very cogent and clear and it was obvious that the authorities should urgently act to have the research ratified or otherwise, and if she was right, then the second dose for those patients should be given ASAP- like , yesterday!
Seems like the first dose gave only 39 per cent protection, but that went up to 90 per cent after the second dose.
		
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What you say is all very true - and is exactly what I say to my wife - but that doesn't stop her worrying that she might say something 'wrong' or that irritates the caller.  That the caller called in respect of a prostate cancer does not mean that her query cannot be addressed or worse - that it should be 'turned away' - in fact the helpline tries as best they can to help.  There is no such thing as an OK complaint as they are all looked in to even although most complaints are ill-founded or unreasonable.  But they are all logged.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Cancer patients are a wide ranging group and some of the effects vary between the different types, and where people are in their journey. It isn't surprising that some cancer patients have a reduced response to vaccination, particularly right after chemo, say. Their immune system needs to be responsive to make the vaccine effective and if it is not responding fully it will affect the protection from the vaccine. But there will still be some response. In HIV patients, who also have a reduced immune response, fewer of them didn't get Covid but many still got the effect of a much milder course.

Much of the stuff the caller is asking is not full tested, and is really questions for her (or her relative's) oncologist.
		
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Exactly - and that is the message that must be put across without the nurse on the helpline seeming to the caller to be being dismissive or unhelpful - and some callers are very insistent and demanding...


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## larmen (Mar 16, 2021)

I wouldn’t be surprised if some lawyer in the US is already preparing a class action suit


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## bobmac (Mar 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What you say is all very true - and is exactly what I say to my wife - *but that doesn't stop her worrying* that she might say something 'wrong' or that irritates the caller.  That the caller called in respect of a prostate cancer does not mean that her query cannot be addressed or worse - that it should be 'turned away' - in fact the helpline tries as best they can to help.  There is no such thing as an OK complaint as they are all looked in to even although most complaints are ill-founded or unreasonable.  But they are all logged.
		
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So she is worried and you worry about her being worried.

I know she wants to help but at what cost to her own health and yours?


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## williamalex1 (Mar 16, 2021)

A question for Ethan, are people already taking blood thinning meds like aspirin or warfarin less likely to have a blood clot ?.
I've been taking 75mg aspirin daily for 30 years.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So she is worried and you worry about her being worried.

I know she wants to help but at what cost to her own health and yours?
		
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She loves her job.  Giving something back to a charity that supports her colleagues and friends in the NHS breast cancer teams across the UK.  She knows the huge load that the health charities carry in supporting the NHS.

Just sometimes it can be a bit stressy trying to satisfy the expectations of callers - and also quite often having to try and defuse unreasonable demands of the NHS - though also often recognising holes in what support and advice women have been given - providing pointers to how they can access what should be available to them.   I just support as I must.

At the moment call volumes are high and more than 50% of callers have questions upon Covid-19 vaccination...  And we know why.  It's a complex and developing picture that is difficult to put across with the certainty that many cancer patients require.


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## drdel (Mar 16, 2021)

I understand the overall dataset suggests the 'blood clot' rate in the Pfizer cohort is very slightly higher.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			I understand the overall dataset suggests the 'blood clot' rate in the Pfizer cohort is very slightly higher.
		
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As I'm sure you know, as you have experience looking at data sets, there can be many different reasons as to why 2 data sets with seemingly similar numbers can be interpreted in a different way.


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			A question for Ethan, are people already taking blood thinning meds like aspirin or warfarin less likely to have a blood clot ?.
I've been taking 75mg aspirin daily for 30 years.
		
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I don't think it has been formally tested in Covid, but in other conditions where clotting is a problem, for example coronary heart disease, it certainly may help. 

There is some data that it may also help in other ways, by reaching inflammation and even having a minor effect on the immune system. As you have probably heard, Covid is basically a 2 phase illness, a respiratory viral illness followed by an inflammatory multi-organ condition. It is usually the second part that does you in, but the aspirin may help with that so I would stick with it. I wouldn't start aspirin unless there was another reason to do so, though. I take a Vitamin D fairly regularly through Covid. Evidence not that strong, but not much risk of harm.


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## Ethan (Mar 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			I understand the overall dataset suggests the 'blood clot' rate in the Pfizer cohort is very slightly higher.
		
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There are blood clots and blood clots. The ones that got the Scando regulators attention did so because they had unusual features and were atypical. Similar cases have not yet occurred with Pfizer. The issue is not the number but the nature, and whether that points to a wide effect on blood vessels which could have result in a range of types of undesirable effects, and a lot of the events are fairly common in the vaccinated age groups and might not be noticed immediately.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I don't think it has been formally tested in Covid, but in other conditions where clotting is a problem, for example coronary heart disease, it certainly may help.

There is some data that it may also help in other ways, by reaching inflammation and even having a minor effect on the immune system. As you have probably heard, Covid is basically a 2 phase illness, a respiratory viral illness followed by an inflammatory multi-organ condition. It is usually the second part that does you in, but the aspirin may help with that so I would stick with it. I wouldn't start aspirin unless there was another reason to do so, though. I take a Vitamin D fairly regularly through Covid. Evidence not that strong, but not much risk of harm.
		
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Thanks Ethan , I also take Vitamin D . 
Sadly neither are doing anything for my sore back


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## D-S (Mar 16, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371868865391685647


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

Philippines variant arrives in U.K? - yes I know it is most likely just another variant and we will having to be dealing with new variants for as long as, but it just doesn’t fill me with joy as I wonder how it came to pass.  No matter. It’s in.


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## DanFST (Mar 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But it just doesn’t fill me with joy as I wonder how it came to pass.  No matter. It’s in.
		
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Because borders are open. I know I sound like a broken record. I could go to Mauritius tomorrow.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2021)

Officially over 50s on NHS website


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2021)

Well suffice to say my immune system kicked into gear after my vaccine yesterday - had a terrible night with chills, sweats, headache and nausea and feel rough as rough this morning!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Officially over 50s on NHS website
		
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Until you go to book at which point I was told I was ineligible, as was my wife. Hopefully just a glitch.


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## Imurg (Mar 17, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Well suffice to say my immune system kicked into gear after my vaccine yesterday - had a terrible night with chills, sweats, headache and nausea and feel rough as rough this morning!
		
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Good
Bad
But good


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## Beezerk (Mar 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Until you go to book at which point I was told I was ineligible, as was my wife. Hopefully just a glitch.
		
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Same for me.
Doh 🤦


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Until you go to book at which point I was told I was ineligible, as was my wife. Hopefully just a glitch.
		
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Will catch up soon I'm sure


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I also tried to book and couldn't.

I gave them a ring, the lady said it will just take a little time for all the over 50s data to catch up, should be able to book within 24 hours 🤞

They didn't have this trouble with all the over 80s waiting to pounce online as soon as it went live... 🤔 😉
		
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Considering they were ahead with the over 60s it's a shame they advised it when not ready


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## USER1999 (Mar 17, 2021)

I just waited until I got a text message from the NHS. Two days later I got the letter as well. Just waiting for the carrier pigeon to arrive now.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I just waited until I got a text message from the NHS. Two days later I got the letter as well. Just waiting for the carrier pigeon to arrive now.
		
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Its probably been shot down en route, they're generally quicker than royal mail these days...


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## USER1999 (Mar 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Its probably been shot down en route, they're generally quicker than royal mail these days...
		
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Too true. Someone posted me a part I had bought last Tuesday, Royal Mail. Has it arrived yet? No chance.


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## GB72 (Mar 17, 2021)

Out of interest, has anyone seen any more recent figures on the impact of vaccination in Israel as they are so far ahead of everyone else with it. Used to be in the news every couple of days but people seem to have stopped reporting on it now.


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## GB72 (Mar 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Considering they were ahead with the over 60s it's a shame they advised it when not ready
		
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Reading a few quotes, looks like it may have been a more rapid decision based on the fact that the vaccine supply was looking particularly high for the next 2 weeks and so they wanted to get as many of the people in the top 9 groups booking in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 17, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Well suffice to say my immune system kicked into gear after my vaccine yesterday - had a terrible night with chills, sweats, headache and nausea and feel rough as rough this morning!
		
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I’m amazed - I have had no issue at all , not even a sore arm , trying to not to think that there isn’t something wrong when you hear of lots of people getting side affects 😬


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## SaintHacker (Mar 17, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has anyone seen any more recent figures on the impact of vaccination in Israel as they are so far ahead of everyone else with it. Used to be in the news every couple of days but people seem to have stopped reporting on it now.
		
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There's no one there to do any reporting as they've all buggered off on holiday!😂


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## Imurg (Mar 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m amazed - I have had no issue at all , not even a sore arm , trying to not to think that there isn’t something wrong when you hear of lots of people getting side affects 😬
		
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Maybe you got a duff batch..


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m amazed - I have had no issue at all , not even a sore arm , trying to not to think that there isn’t something wrong when you hear of lots of people getting side affects 😬
		
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I've seldom felt more ill to be honest. Oh my word I was so cold and then so hot and thought I'd keel over en route to the bathroom! Mind you I think there is more reaction when you've already had it.


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## USER1999 (Mar 17, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've seldom felt more ill to be honest. Oh my word I was so cold and then so hot and thought I'd keel over en route to the bathroom! Mind you I think there is more reaction when you've already had it.
		
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I have mine next Tuesday. Something to look forwards to I guess. I never have the flu vaccine because I react badly to it, so we shall see what happens.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 17, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Well suffice to say my immune system kicked into gear after my vaccine yesterday - had a terrible night with chills, sweats, headache and nausea and feel rough as rough this morning!
		
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My wife was the same , got the jab on the Friday , she was fine until late Saturday night  she felt unwell. She stayed in bed all day and night Sunday, fortunately it only lasted for around 24 hours. I didn't have any side effects.
I was so relieved  when she got out of bed, the dishes were piling up


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## bobmac (Mar 17, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			My wife was the same , got the jab on the Friday , she was fine until late Saturday night  she felt unwell. She stayed in bed all day and night Sunday, fortunately it only lasted for around 24 hours.
I was so relieved  when she got out of bed, the dishes were piling up 

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You must have been really hungry


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## williamalex1 (Mar 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You must have been really hungry
		
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Lucky I had the chippy on speed dial , thanks for your concern Bob


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## AmandaJR (Mar 17, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			I have mine next Tuesday. Something to look forwards to I guess. I never have the flu vaccine because I react badly to it, so we shall see what happens.
		
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I tried the take paracetamol the day before but didn't seem to help! The good thing is it only lasted about 12 hours and now I just feel like I haven't slept - oh that's because I haven't!


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Purely based on how the actual virus can either have no effects at all or sadly kill people, and mostly in between, I feel it's logical that people are experiencing different reactions to the vaccine.
2 of my colleagues had it a couple of weeks ago, 1 felt fine and the other felt awful.
		
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Individual responses and thresholds for symptoms are incredibly variable. It is a bit like an iceberg. You can have a lot of stuff happening under the water but symptoms only occur above the water.

This same thing occurs in cancer where different people experience considerable amounts of disease very differently, and I have seen patients with MS who have the same symptoms but very different levels of disease on MRI. 

With the vaccine, if you experience a reaction, it probably confirms that your immune system has been triggered but it doesn't mean that you will have a stronger immunity than someone who didn't have that reaction.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 17, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Individual responses and thresholds for symptoms are incredibly variable. It is a bit like an iceberg. You can have a lot of stuff happening under the water but symptoms only occur above the water.

This same thing occurs in cancer where different people experience considerable amounts of disease very differently, and I have seen patients with MS who have the same symptoms but very different levels of disease on MRI.

With the vaccine, if you experience a reaction, it probably confirms that your immune system has been triggered but it doesn't mean that you will have a stronger immunity than someone who didn't have that reaction.
		
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Is the recipient's weight a factor ?, My wife is only 9 stone and had a mild reaction, I'm 15 stone  and had no reaction


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## MarkT (Mar 17, 2021)

In case people don't know the over 50s can now book their jab - got mine next Monday at the Home of Football (Elland Road)


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## Beezerk (Mar 17, 2021)

MarkT said:



			In case people don't know the over 50s can now book their jab - got mine next Monday at the Home of Football (Elland Road)
		
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Website still keeps saying I'm not eligible 🤨


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Is the recipient's weight a factor ?, My wife is only 9 stone and had a mild reaction, I'm 15 stone  and had no reaction
		
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Yeah, she's a small iceberg, you could sink the Titanic.

(Weight isn't really a factor)


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## ger147 (Mar 17, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Is the recipient's weight a factor ?, My wife is only 9 stone and had a mild reaction, I'm 15 stone  and had no reaction
		
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15 stone??? Have you lost a leg???


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## williamalex1 (Mar 17, 2021)

ger147 said:



			15 stone??? Have you lost a leg??? 

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Ethan said:



			Yeah, she's a small iceberg, you could sink the Titanic.

(Weight isn't really a factor)
		
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She has been a little frigid recently , Haven't lost a leg yet, fingers crossed we don't lose one on Thursday


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## PNWokingham (Mar 17, 2021)

Over 50s now allowed - booked in for next Tuesday and follow up in June


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## SaintHacker (Mar 17, 2021)

Not long to go then for the over 45s 🤞. Cant say im looking forward to it though, last vaxcines i had were diphtheria tetanus and polio given in one a few years ago before a trip abroad. Absolutely knocked me for six for a couple of days so I'm expecting the same from this. Still, better than the alternative i guess...


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 17, 2021)

MarkT said:



			In case people don't know the over 50s can now book their jab - got mine next Monday at the Home of Football (Elland Road)
		
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If any of the United strikers are performing the jabs, they'll either find the wrong person or stick the needle up your backside


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## DRW (Mar 17, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has anyone seen any more recent figures on the impact of vaccination in Israel as they are so far ahead of everyone else with it. Used to be in the news every couple of days but people seem to have stopped reporting on it now.
		
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A few links(click on the link, for full details) on updates, well worth a read to give some positive outlook (looking great and long may it continue):-

Dvir Aran on Twitter: "The Israeli ministry of health provided today daily numbers of severe cases stratified by age and vaccination status. There are now ~13 severe cases per 100K for 60+ non-vaccinated individuals compared to 0.4 in the vaccinated group! (2.9 vs 0.1 in 40-60yo) https://t.co/U5YTXb83os" / Twitter

Eran Segal on Twitter: "Israel: nearly fully open economy and R continues to drop The number of critically hospitalized patients is also declining https://t.co/RBGTUg88yJ" / Twitter

Signals of hope: gauging the impact of a rapid national vaccination campaign | Nature Reviews Immunology

There was another that shown only 60ish hospitalisations out of 1000 odd in one region, where people had got two doses of the vaccine, but cant remembers the 'hospital' in Israel that loaded up the data(i think)

Clearly all based on Pfizer jabs.


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2021)

Some UK vaccine news: shortage of vaccine


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Some UK vaccine news: shortage of vaccine

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Waiting to hear what the SoS says about it when asked.  Hopefully not significant.


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2021)

EU Commission once again threatening to stop all exports of vaccine out of the EU and suggest the UK should be sending vaccines to the EU. Any spare AZ anyone.


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## IainP (Mar 17, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Some UK vaccine news: shortage of vaccine

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Amazing how quickly things change
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56407251

I think I recall discussion about peaks & troughs with supply


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2021)

IainP said:



			Amazing how quickly things change
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56407251

I think I recall discussion about peaks & troughs with supply
		
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The NHS has written to vaccination centres about it. NHS letter Unfortunately this is real.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 17, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Some UK vaccine news: shortage of vaccine

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Curious that this is being reported as NHS England shortage in some places though, is it UK wide or not, or just bad journalism?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Curious that this is being reported as NHS England shortage in some places though, is it UK wide or not, or just bad journalism?
		
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Yes and no. The over 50s from what I read will still be done by mid April and second dosed on time 

The rest delayed a bit but they got ages until end of July I think they got plenty Time


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Curious that this is being reported as NHS England shortage in some places though, is it UK wide or not, or just bad journalism?
		
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It will be UK-wide. Devolved responsibilities and all that.


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## Beezerk (Mar 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Woo hoo... 👍
NHS site has allowed me to book, 1st jab Friday 30 mins away, 2nd just down the road.
		
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It's taking the pash for me.
Finally saying I am now eligible but every time I try and select a time it says it isn't available.
My laptop is about to go through the window


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## Old Skier (Mar 17, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			It's taking the pash for me.
Finally saying I am now eligible but every time I try and select a time it says it isn't available.
My laptop is about to go through the window 

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Try later in the evening which is when some areas upload more appointments. It is annoying as it’s quickest fingers and you could get right through to the end and someone else was quicker.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 17, 2021)

I read somewhere on twitter that worst case we have so much AZ to do the entire population

My question would be why not reserve the phizer for second doses and then everyone else gets AZ

Least gets it done


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I read somewhere on twitter that worst case we have so much AZ to do the entire population

My question would be why not reserve the phizer for second doses and then everyone else gets AZ

Least gets it done
		
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I'm not sure all that AZ is available yet, but that will basically be the plan. Moderna is approved here, but supplies will not be huge, and Janssen has been approved in the US and EMA but not here yet and it is one shot only, so that helps.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 18, 2021)

Pfizer and AS are both denying there is any supply issues according to sky news. All a bit strange 🤔


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2021)

Can anyone tell me what deity I need to sacrifice to, the incantation to chant in order to get a vaccine via a hub? It currently feels like one of the Labours of Hercules


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Can anyone tell me what deity I need to sacrifice to, the incantation to chant in order to get a vaccine via a hub? It currently feels like one of the Labours of Hercules 

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Are you over 50? It should be ready for you to book by now really


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Are you over 50? It should be ready for you to book by now really
		
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Yup. It teases you, allows you to get so far, then bam, no appointments. I've even beeen given times on mutliple occasions but when you press the Next button, no appointment available. It is head bangingly annoying.


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## AliMc (Mar 18, 2021)

AZ jab at 9:00 this morning, at hospital where my wife works, walked with her, had jab and walked back, 25 minutes in total


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yup. It teases you, allows you to get so far, then bam, no appointments. I've even beeen given times on mutliple occasions but when you press the Next button, no appointment available. It is head bangingly annoying.
		
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Yep, I'm getting desperate now and even trying my luck with Darlington and Middleborough 😂


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## GB72 (Mar 18, 2021)

Nobody's fault and not a complaint or anything but cannot help but feel a bit down that I was looking like being a couple of weeks away from getting vaccinated and now it looks like May. Looks like when we meet up for the first time once groups are allowed to meet in gardens, I will be the only one of my friends who will not have had at least jab one.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Nobody's fault and not a complaint or anything but cannot help but feel a bit down that I was looking like being a couple of weeks away from getting vaccinated and now it looks like May. Looks like when we meet up for the first time once groups are allowed to meet in gardens, I will be the only one of my friends who will not have had at least jab one.
		
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It was always going to happen at some point, were at ybe stage where those who had there first jabs at the start now need there second. 
Look at it from another way though, we've done 50% of the adult population so the virus is now struggling to find people who aren't immune, and look how far we are advanced comparwd to the rest if Europe. I think a massive pat on the back is due to everyone involved,  from the top of government to the person who sweeps out the vacc centre at the end of the day 👏👏


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Nobody's fault and not a complaint or anything but cannot help but feel a bit down that I was looking like being a couple of weeks away from getting vaccinated and now it looks like May. Looks like when we meet up for the first time once groups are allowed to meet in gardens, I will be the only one of my friends who will not have had at least jab one.
		
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Look at it from another way, if everyone else is done you will be protected still from them having it done


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Yep, I'm getting desperate now and even trying my luck with Darlington and Middleborough 😂
		
Click to expand...



I got teased with an actual time in Ashington this morning, 10 minutes away. Quickly taken away of course


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## GB72 (Mar 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			It was always going to happen at some point, were at ybe stage where those who had there first jabs at the start now need there second.
Look at it from another way though, we've done 50% of the adult population so the virus is now struggling to find people who aren't immune, and look how far we are advanced comparwd to the rest if Europe. I think a massive pat on the back is due to everyone involved,  from the top of government to the person who sweeps out the vacc centre at the end of the day 👏👏
		
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Oh totally agree with everything you say, just one of those irrational feelings based on the hope that I would be booking in soon and then having that bumped back a month. I know nothing more could be done, doesn't stop it getting me a bit down this morning.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 18, 2021)

Im the same really, 46 so should be in the next group.  Ive been focusing more on the july target if im honest, although happy tonget it earlier!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Im the same really, 46 so should be in the next group.  Ive been focusing more on the july target if im honest, although happy tonget it earlier!
		
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That's why I'm looking at it overall (yes I've had mine I know) but providing the whole country is first jabbed by end of July then what's the issue


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## GB72 (Mar 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's why I'm looking at it overall (yes I've had mine I know) but providing the whole country is first jabbed by end of July then what's the issue
		
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The issue is that some people, me included, are particularly nervous about contracting it, mentally I had seen the finishing line and it has been moved further away and so I feel down about it. I am in a group that, whilst not medically defined as at risk, I am 48 and overweight and so am unlikely to breeze through it if I get it. I have explained that it is not necessarily rational nor a matter of blame or complaint and just a post about how I feel about it. Very easy to say what's the issue once you have already been vaccinated and be totally blasé  but for those who are still worried and stressed about it, moving things a month down the line can impact on how people feel mentally and you can be down about these things without looking for fault.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			The issue is that some people, me included, are particularly nervous about contracting it, mentally I had seen the finishing line and it has been moved further away and so I feel down about it. I am in a group that, whilst not medically defined as at risk, I am 48 and overweight and so am unlikely to breeze through it if I get it. I have explained that it is not necessarily rational nor a matter of blame or complaint and just a post about how I feel about it. Very easy to say what's the issue once you have already been vaccinated and be totally blasé  but for those who are still worried and stressed about it, moving things a month down the line can impact on how people feel mentally and you can be down about these things without looking for fault.
		
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But like I said if your meeting up with people who have had the jab you are less likely to get it as they are less likely to get it and less likely to pass it on

So it's not being blasé at all. Statistics say the risks are going down so in your group of 6 outside your risk level has dropped dramatically

They say if you live with someone who's jabbed you are 30% less likely to get covid so meeting outside with 6 jabbed people what's the odds compared to living?

Also I don't see the issue because the gov promised it by end of July so as long as it's by then they have kept to promised 


It's only because they raced ahead


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 18, 2021)

Booked a week and a half ago for next Monday - first available appointment. Hopefully just going to squeeze first jab in. Can't believe the number of friends that are in younger age brackets, that booked after me, and are suddenly leapfrogging me and have already been jabbed, or being jabbed before my date. One booked for next Thursday, walked in to the local pharmacy last night and got offered an appointment today, lucky git.


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## drdel (Mar 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But like I said if your meeting up with people who have had the jab you are less likely to get it as they are less likely to get it and less likely to pass it on

So it's not being blasé at all. Statistics say the risks are going down so in your group of 6 outside your risk level has dropped dramatically

They say if you live with someone who's jabbed you are 30% less likely to get covid so meeting outside with 6 jabbed people what's the odds compared to living?

Also I don't see the issue because the gov promised it by end of July so as long as it's by then they have kept to promised


It's only because they raced ahead
		
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You can still catch it even though the probability is getting less.Vaccine reduces risk of getting seriously ill and of onward transmission by about 30%


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## GB72 (Mar 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But like I said if your meeting up with people who have had the jab you are less likely to get it as they are less likely to get it and less likely to pass it on

So it's not being blasé at all. Statistics say the risks are going down so in your group of 6 outside your risk level has dropped dramatically

They say if you live with someone who's jabbed you are 30% less likely to get covid so meeting outside with 6 jabbed people what's the odds compared to living?

Also I don't see the issue because the gov promised it by end of July so as long as it's by then they have kept to promised


It's only because they raced ahead
		
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Must be so nice to be able to assess and deal with any situation totally based on facts and statistics with no unexplainable doubts, niggles and stresses in your head, to not get hyped up about something and be disappointed when that event moves further away.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But like I said if your meeting up with people who have had the jab you are less likely to get it as they are less likely to get it and less likely to pass it on

So it's not being blasé at all. Statistics say the risks are going down so in your group of 6 outside your risk level has dropped dramatically

They say if you live with someone who's jabbed you are 30% less likely to get covid so meeting outside with 6 jabbed people what's the odds compared to living?

Also I don't see the issue because the gov promised it by end of July so as long as it's by then they have kept to promised


It's only because they raced ahead
		
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Just because it isnt a stress for you doesnt mean it isnt for everyone else. Leave it and move on maybe?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Must be so nice to be able to assess and deal with any situation totally based on facts and statistics with no unexplainable doubts, niggles and stresses in your head, to not get hyped up about something and be disappointed when that event moves further away.
		
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Sorry I apologise, it must be stressful in your situation

My comment is more aimed about as long as everyone done by August it's on time 

@drdel thought it was 67%


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Just because it isnt a stress for you doesnt mean it isnt for everyone else. Leave it and move on maybe?
		
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See my comment above


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## PNWokingham (Mar 18, 2021)

i am wandering into town shortly as a have a date with a big prick!!


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## GB72 (Mar 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry I apologise, it must be stressful in your situation

My comment is more aimed about as long as everyone done by August it's on time

@drdel thought it was 67%
		
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No problem, just having a bad day. Agree with what you say and that is why I pointed out that I was not complaining or blaming, everyone on the vaccination front is doing well and there would always be slow points


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## pauljames87 (Mar 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			No problem, just having a bad day. Agree with what you say and that is why I pointed out that I was not complaining or blaming, everyone on the vaccination front is doing well and there would always be slow points
		
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Have to admit I am very surprised the jab has been so quick I didn't expect the under 50s to even be talked about until may

Phase 1 was or is 32 million people 

Phase 2 is said to be 21 million people 

Now we started phase 1 in December until April so 4 months get 32 million done

I wonder if starting may they will smash 21 million by August as most the second jabs will be done in the first bit 

Let's hope this issue is small and just helps restock the supply a bit


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## D-S (Mar 18, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372504243983286274


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i am wandering into town shortly as a have a date with a big prick!! 

Click to expand...

Lucky you, I've about given up trying. I even woke up at 5.30 this morning to get on it quick...no availability anywhere...9am availability but usual story, find a time then it goes before you can confirm. Just had two hours trying on my laptop, zero luck. I don't understand why they are drip feeding appointment times on the website rather than showing everything. There's also a glitch where it flashes up some arrows to move the availability date but they disappear after a split second so it can't be used 🤦


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Lucky you, I've about given up trying. I even woke up at 5.30 this morning to get on it quick...no availability anywhere...9am availability but usual story, find a time then it goes before you can confirm. Just had two hours trying on my laptop, zero luck. I don't understand why they are drip feeding appointment times on the website rather than showing everything. There's also a glitch where it flashes up some arrows to move the availability date but they disappear after a split second so it can't be used 🤦
		
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I spoke to my cousin about this. He was a programmer and his niche towards the end of his time as a contractor was to test systems. He poured scorn on this one, 'I would have failed it on day one'. When you get offered a time no one else should be able to see it. You should get 2 mins to book it. The 'no appt' message should come up at the beginning of the process, not when you have gone through every stage. Traminator suggested he went through this for a day and then it calmed down. Hopefully that will happen for us soon as well.


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I spoke to my cousin about this. He was a programmer and his niche towards the end of his time as a contractor was to test systems. He poured scorn on this one, 'I would have failed it on day one'. When you get offered a time no one else should be able to see it. You should get 2 mins to book it. The 'no appt' message should come up at the beginning of the process, not when you have gone through every stage. Traminator suggested he went through this for a day and then it calmed down. Hopefully that will happen for us soon as well.
		
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Yes I agree, it really is a shocking bit of programming.
I've found if you're on the list of centres and refresh the page if often puts new options in there, not that it helps as you still can't book


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2021)

Unbelievable, the same happened when I moaned about my mtb shoes not arriving from Holland and they turned up 2 hours later lol.
Somehow managed to book for 1pm next Friday at the Life Centre in Newcastle


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Hi,

Just to clarify,  I didn't have any of these exact issues, my issue was that it was saying I wasn't eligible to book.

Once that changed, I had a choice of about 6 venues, with varying times available, and I had no problem at all booking my preferred venues and times.
		
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Sorry, 2 + 2 = 5


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Lucky you, I've about given up trying. I even woke up at 5.30 this morning to get on it quick...no availability anywhere...9am availability but usual story, find a time then it goes before you can confirm. Just had two hours trying on my laptop, zero luck. I don't understand why they are drip feeding appointment times on the website rather than showing everything. There's also a glitch where it flashes up some arrows to move the availability date but they disappear after a split second so it can't be used 🤦
		
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Problem is that not all sites are on the National DB, if your having issues I would give your surgery a bell for advise. Many GPS and chemists are on a separate system only available through the GP.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2021)

EMA have cleared the AZ. Wonder if it will make any difference. I suspect amongst a few the damage has been done.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 18, 2021)

very impressed with the vaccination. Text and booking very quick and efficient - only got it yetsreday, booked and had it within 24 hours. I got a coffee in middle of town, walked 2 minutes to the Vacc centre. Entered, 30 seconds to confirm who i am - pointed down stairs - pointed to desk 6. Hello doctor. 30 seconds for details and take off coat. Still standing - "little scratch coming". Done. walk out. I left friends at Town hall at 12.52 with a hot coffee - and was back with them and a still hot coffee at 1pm (the time the jab was booked for)!


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## SaintHacker (Mar 18, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			very impressed with the vaccination. Text and booking very quick and efficient - only got it yetsreday, booked and had it within 24 hours. I got a coffee in middle of town, walked 2 minutes to the Vacc centre. Entered, 30 seconds to confirm who i am - pointed down stairs - pointed to desk 6. Hello doctor. 30 seconds for details and take off coat. Still standing - "little scratch coming". Done. walk out. I left friends at Town hall at 12.52 with a hot coffee - and was back with them and a still hot coffee at 1pm (the time the jab was booked for)!
		
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So when did you meet the big prick then, and who was it? 😉😂


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## BTatHome (Mar 18, 2021)

Try phoning ... they sorted my daughter's booking within 2 mins and she had a booking for 3 days later straight away


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## davidy233 (Mar 18, 2021)

Got my first dose of the vaccine tonight - had about 20 minutes of queuing but whole experience was well organised and jag was painless - I suppose we'll find out tomorrow if I'll have any side effects - hopefully not.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			The issue is that some people, me included, are particularly nervous about contracting it, mentally I had seen the finishing line and it has been moved further away and so I feel down about it. I am in a group that, whilst not medically defined as at risk, I am 48 and overweight and so am unlikely to breeze through it if I get it. I have explained that it is not necessarily rational nor a matter of blame or complaint and just a post about how I feel about it. Very easy to say what's the issue once you have already been vaccinated and be totally blasé  but for those who are still worried and stressed about it, moving things a month down the line can impact on how people feel mentally and you can be down about these things without looking for fault.
		
Click to expand...

I hope you won't hold it against me, but people like me could be part of the problem. I got jabbed 20th Jan so I am due the second jab soon. Govt and NHS did well in getting many of us vaccinated so soon, but I'm due a second before many can get their first. Jan and Feb went way ahead of target numbers, but that rate could not continue once we hit this overlap period. Trying to remember my maths studies from a very long time ago about how to produce a model of this scenario. Certainly no fault of govt or NHS in my view.


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## GB72 (Mar 18, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I hope you won't hold it against me, but people like me could be part of the problem. I got jabbed 20th Jan so I am due the second jab soon. Govt and NHS did well in getting many of us vaccinated so soon, but I'm due a second before many can get their first. Jan and Feb went way ahead of target numbers, but that rate could not continue once we hit this overlap period. Trying to remember my maths studies from a very long time ago about how to produce a model of this scenario. Certainly no fault of govt or NHS in my view.
		
Click to expand...

Nope not holding it against anyone.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I spoke to my cousin about this. He was a programmer and his niche towards the end of his time as a contractor was to test systems. He poured scorn on this one, 'I would have failed it on day one'. When you get offered a time no one else should be able to see it. You should get 2 mins to book it. The 'no appt' message should come up at the beginning of the process, not when you have gone through every stage. Traminator suggested he went through this for a day and then it calmed down. Hopefully that will happen for us soon as well.
		
Click to expand...

Yet to meet one programmer that liked another programmers work


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Yet to meet one programmer that liked another programmers work 

Click to expand...

Electricians are exactly the same. Fair point 😁


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## Ethan (Mar 18, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			very impressed with the vaccination. Text and booking very quick and efficient - only got it yetsreday, booked and had it within 24 hours. I got a coffee in middle of town, walked 2 minutes to the Vacc centre. Entered, 30 seconds to confirm who i am - pointed down stairs - pointed to desk 6. Hello doctor. 30 seconds for details and take off coat. Still standing - "little scratch coming". Done. walk out. I left friends at Town hall at 12.52 with a hot coffee - and was back with them and a still hot coffee at 1pm (the time the jab was booked for)!
		
Click to expand...

No 15 mins observation post-vac?. That'll be Astra Zeneca, then?


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## Beedee (Mar 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Yet to meet one programmer that liked another programmers work 

Click to expand...

"Who wrote this "?   said every programmer.

Always bad when you remember it was you who wrote it!!


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## Beezerk (Mar 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No 15 mins observation post-vac?. That'll be Astra Zeneca, then?
		
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Are you told which vaccine you are receiving?


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## Ethan (Mar 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Are you told which vaccine you are receiving?
		
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You should be given a card with the name and batch number. The vacc place may have a notice up at the door, like a specials board, telling you. Mine did. There was a 15 min post-vac observation period for both vacs to begin with,. but it has been removed for AZ because there have been no acute anaphylaxis cases. I think Pfizer still has it, but the risk of anaphylaxis is very small.


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## Beedee (Mar 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Are you told which vaccine you are receiving?
		
Click to expand...

I got a little card that said which vaccine and what batch number.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You should be given a card with the name and batch number. The vacc place may have a notice up at the door, like a specials board, telling you. Mine did. There was a 15 min post-vac observation period for both vacs to begin with,. but it has been removed for AZ because there have been no acute anaphylaxis cases. I think Pfizer still has it, but the risk of anaphylaxis is very small.
		
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AZ still had a post-vac observation period at Epsom racecourse as of last Friday.


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## davidy233 (Mar 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			AZ still had a post-vac observation period at Epsom racecourse as of last Friday.
		
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I had AZ jab tonight and the only advice was not to drive within 15 minutes.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No 15 mins observation post-vac?. That'll be Astra Zeneca, then?
		
Click to expand...

Yes. Astra


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## Ethan (Mar 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			AZ still had a post-vac observation period at Epsom racecourse as of last Friday.
		
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No longer required, but no harm in doing it. If they get changing supplies, easier to have one policy to organise staff.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 18, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I hope you won't hold it against me, but people like me could be part of the problem. I got jabbed 20th Jan so I am due the second jab soon. Govt and NHS did well in getting many of us vaccinated so soon, but I'm due a second before many can get their first. Jan and Feb went way ahead of target numbers, but that rate could not continue once we hit this overlap period. Trying to remember my maths studies from a very long time ago about how to produce a model of this scenario. Certainly no fault of govt or NHS in my view.
		
Click to expand...

In Scotland we get a letter showing us the date, time and place to go for our vaccinations, easier to keep track,  for future vaccinations .


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## GB72 (Mar 19, 2021)

Not sure if it should be in here or in random irritations but Gareth Southgate has really set me off tonight having just read his comments on the BBC sport website. Apparently footballers are being made to play all over Europe and they should be jumping the queue to be vaccinated. In fact the game could save the NHS money by buying the vaccines and administering them. Sorry, no. Young fit and healthy, back if the line with everyone else in that group. Don't want to play then don't. Apologies but in my current mood that really hit a nerve.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No longer required, but no harm in doing it. If they get changing supplies, easier to have one policy to organise staff.
		
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When my wife went they said if she was driving 15 mins which she wasn't so they sent her away straight after


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## IainP (Mar 19, 2021)

Was posted elsewhere, thankfully so far we aren't seeing a surge in new cases in UK since the schools opened more - still early days but encouraging.
Only have to look across to mainland Europe to remind us where we've been, and the potential risk. Last couple of days:
France, Poland, Italy, Germany recording between 38K and 15K new cases a day.
Hoping ours remains low as we come out of partial lockdown 🤞


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not sure if it should be in here or in random irritations but Gareth Southgate has really set me off tonight having just read his comments on the BBC sport website. Apparently footballers are being made to play all over Europe and they should be jumping the queue to be vaccinated. In fact the game could save the NHS money by buying the vaccines and administering them. Sorry, no. Young fit and healthy, back if the line with everyone else in that group. Don't want to play then don't. Apologies but in my current mood that really hit a nerve.
		
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Not a very smart comment by Gareth, yes whilst I agree with his reasoning that in theory it makes sense , football has been lucky to be allowed to carry on. Imo all international and European games should have been banned with travel just for local domestic games .. I get that if footballers were done sooner they would pose less risk but if you cancel international football same effect 

I guess one costs more than the other!


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## GB72 (Mar 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Not a very smart comment by Gareth, yes whilst I agree with his reasoning that in theory it makes sense , football has been lucky to be allowed to carry on. Imo all international and European games should have been banned with travel just for local domestic games .. I get that if footballers were done sooner they would pose less risk but if you cancel international football same effect

I guess one costs more than the other!
		
Click to expand...

In no particular order I would be looking at teachers, emergency services, supermarket staff, retail staff, hospitality workers, delivery drivers to name just a few who are arguably at greater risk and have a far stronger case to be bumped up the list. Many of these have proved essential whereas, aside from the entertainment value, where is the national benefit to football keeping going. Then they bring the money card up, we can pay for it to save the NHS money. Most ill judged statement that I have seen for some time and one I am very disappointed by.


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## Ethan (Mar 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			In no particular order I would be looking at teachers, emergency services, supermarket staff, retail staff, hospitality workers, delivery drivers to name just a few who are arguably at greater risk and have a far stronger case to be bumped up the list. Many of these have proved essential whereas, aside from the entertainment value, where is the national benefit to football keeping going. Then they bring the money card up, we can pay for it to save the NHS money. Most ill judged statement that I have seen for some time and one I am very disappointed by.
		
Click to expand...

At this stage, despite the short term supply shortages, the rollout is going so fast that it could slow things down to segment into al these groups. The issue with the younger people is a mixture of risk and transmissibility, those who spread it around are probably the biggest priority, whereas with the older groups, it was more focussed on individual risk and effect on the NHS.


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## GB72 (Mar 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			At this stage, despite the short term supply shortages, the rollout is going so fast that it could slow things down to segment into al these groups. The issue with the younger people is a mixture of risk and transmissibility, those who spread it around are probably the biggest priority, whereas with the older groups, it was more focussed on individual risk and effect on the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree, not advocating any group getting priority but was rather just putting forward a few groups who I see as more essential and at risk than footballers who seem to thing that they have a justification to be vaccinated ahead of everyone else.


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## Ethan (Mar 19, 2021)

Some interesting podcasts on Covid for those who don't get enough here:

How to Vaccinate the World (BBC) - done by the guy who also does the More Or Less podcast on numbers in the news: HTVTW
The Jab (The Economist) - slightly earnest at times, but quite informative: The Jab
Covid Confidential (BBC) - 2 episodes, this is more of a lot back at the way things evolved, a bit more of that which cannot be mentioned here: CC


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## SaintHacker (Mar 19, 2021)

I watched a really crap b movie last night called Sars 29. The plot was that a virus spread roind the world in 2020. We thought we'd beaten it but in 2024 it suddenly reappeared and very quickly killed everybody who had caugjt it and survived the first time round. A happy film to say the least!😳


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## williamalex1 (Mar 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I watched a really crap b movie last night called Sars 29. The plot was that a virus spread roind the world in 2020. We thought we'd beaten it but in 2024 it suddenly reappeared and very quickly killed everybody who had caugjt it and survived the first time round. A happy film to say the least!😳
		
Click to expand...

Last year I watched a 2010 film called Contagion, scary it was very similar to this pandemic


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## Beezerk (Mar 19, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Last year I watched a 2010 film called Contagion, scary it was very similar to this pandemic 

Click to expand...

Were there people talking utter twaddle on forums in the film? 😅


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## SaintHacker (Mar 19, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Were there people talking utter twaddle on forums in the film? 😅
		
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No, that would be too unbelievable even for Hollywood 😂😂😂


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## williamalex1 (Mar 19, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Were there people talking utter twaddle on forums in the film? 😅
		
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No that only happens on here  but the terminology was the same


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## Ethan (Mar 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I watched a really crap b movie last night called Sars 29. The plot was that a virus spread roind the world in 2020. We thought we'd beaten it but in 2024 it suddenly reappeared and very quickly killed everybody who had caugjt it and survived the first time round. A happy film to say the least!😳
		
Click to expand...

Sounds highly unlikely, although as we have heard, policy is informed by movies. I think the bit in Outbreak where they are ready to have the Air Force firebomb a small town which has cases of the virus in it should have been considered here too.


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## larmen (Mar 19, 2021)

At this point you might have to use nukes, too late for just fire.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Were there people talking utter twaddle on forums in the film? 😅
		
Click to expand...

Was Tracy on Facebook warning it was all a hoax.


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## GB72 (Mar 19, 2021)

The spread of the virus at the end of the first of the recent Planet of the Ape trilogy had me thinking that our simian overlords would be in power by now (before any one starts, it is far too easy to make a political comment on that)


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## larmen (Mar 19, 2021)

If we go on fiction,
SPOILER WARNING 
in Dan Brown’s book Inferno they were chasing a countdown to stop a virus. The twist in the book was that the countdown wasn’t to the release time but for full global penetration, and it wasn’t that long of a countdown.
In the movie they changed it all and Tom Hanks saved the world.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			At this point you might have to use nukes, too late for just fire.
		
Click to expand...

P**tsmouth had a high infection rate, them first


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## GB72 (Mar 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			P**tsmouth had a high infection rate, them first
		
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Surely a nuke there would only do several million pounds worth of improvements.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			The spread of the virus at the end of the first of the recent Planet of the Ape trilogy had me thinking that our simian overlords would be in power by now (before any one starts, it is far too easy to make a political comment on that)
		
Click to expand...

Banksy already thought of that one 😀


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## jim8flog (Mar 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Yet to meet one programmer that liked another programmers work 

Click to expand...

 I always reckoned my wife's was better than mine.


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## jim8flog (Mar 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You should be given a card with the name and batch number. The vacc place may have a notice up at the door, like a specials board, telling you. Mine did. There was a 15 min post-vac observation period for both vacs to begin with,. but it has been removed for AZ because there have been no acute anaphylaxis cases. I think Pfizer still has it, but the risk of anaphylaxis is very small.
		
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I only had mine recently and there was a request to sit in the car for 15 minutes. I have had injections at the docs and had a similar request to wait in the surgery waiting room for 15 minutes. I had assumed it was standard procedure now with any injection.


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## jim8flog (Mar 19, 2021)

One the things about any injection that makes me smile is the " slight scratch " I have had dozens of injections in my life time and one thing that none of them have been is a slight scratch but that is the PC brigade for you. The only vaccination that was was the one for small pox.


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## GB72 (Mar 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			One the things about any injection that makes me smile is the " slight scratch " I have had dozens of injections in my life time and one thing that none of them have been is a slight scratch but that is the PC brigade for you. The only vaccination that was was the one for small pox.
		
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One of the nurses at my GP surgery is so skilled at taking blood that I honestly do not even feel the needle go in my arm. No idea how she does it but a great relief when she does my annual checkup.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 19, 2021)

Herself has been speaking to two of our neighbouring nurses... The one in ITU advised she has been working 'normal' hours this week ... And, the one that copped covid, back in summer, advised 7-8 months on she is about fully recovered ...


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## Fade and Die (Mar 19, 2021)

All booked in for my 1st jab tomorrow and 2nd in June.
Thanks really to pauljames for highlighting the website👍👍


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## D-S (Mar 19, 2021)

528k first doses yesterday and 132k 2nd doses - incredible numbers.


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## Ethan (Mar 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			One of the nurses at my GP surgery is so skilled at taking blood that I honestly do not even feel the needle go in my arm. No idea how she does it but a great relief when she does my annual checkup.
		
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Very sharp fine calibre needle makes a lot of difference.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 19, 2021)

had the jab yesterday at 1p. Felt fine until 11pm. Then started shivering and headache - went to bed feeling rough. Woke up a bit better and while still under the weather it will not be enough to stop the cork popping on a bottle of red in a couple of hours!


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## USER1999 (Mar 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			had the jab yesterday at 1p. Felt fine until 11pm. Then started shivering and headache - went to bed feeling rough. Woke up a bit better and while still under the weather it will not be enough to stop the cork popping on a bottle of red in a couple of hours!
		
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Sure you are not supposed to drink for a coiple of dsys before, and after.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 19, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Sure you are not supposed to drink for a coiple of dsys before, and after.
		
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i thought it was ok?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 19, 2021)

R number rising from what I've just seen ...


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## DanFST (Mar 19, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			R number rising from what I've just seen ...
		
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Of course it will do now schools are back! Nothing to worry about.


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## yandabrown (Mar 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Of course it will do now schools are back! Nothing to worry about.
		
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But fewer new cases reported this Friday compared to last, 4,802 this week compared to 6,609 last week and the schools are now back 2 weeks. Early days still but not an immediate ramp-up and they are all getting a couple of tests each week so outbreaks will hopefully be found early. I'm feeling optimistic


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## MegaSteve (Mar 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Of course it will do now schools are back! Nothing to worry about.
		
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There's the thing Dan... What I want/need most is to be able to indulge in some man hugs with my grandsons... Really don't need a blip in 'our' recovery likely to see that put on hold any longer...


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## Ethan (Mar 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			had the jab yesterday at 1p. Felt fine until 11pm. Then started shivering and headache - went to bed feeling rough. Woke up a bit better and while still under the weather it will not be enough to stop the cork popping on a bottle of red in a couple of hours!
		
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They word on the street seems to be that the first AZ is worse than the second and the second Pfizer is worse than the first. But generally well tolerated.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			They word on the street seems to be that the first AZ is worse than the second and the second Pfizer is worse than the first.
		
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Wait until the trial comes back to mix vaccines 

First az second phizer lol


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## bobmac (Mar 19, 2021)

I would say all adults will have had at least one jab by mid May so by the end of May, we should be sorted.
Hopefully the day of release can be brought forward to June the 1st


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			R number rising from what I've just seen ...
		
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Which we were told would happen with each stage r would rise but hospitalisation would fall which we are seeing


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 19, 2021)

Just had my first AZ shot. Two months until the 2nd one.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Which we were told would happen with each stage r would rise but hospitalisation would fall which we are seeing
		
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Well, hopefully covid is aware of the plan and sticks with it ...


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, hopefully covid is aware of the plan and sticks with it ...
		
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It doesn't have to be aware to be fair .. the jabs should stop people getting seriously ill 

We are stopping it's evil scheme!


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## Golfmmad (Mar 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I would say all adults will have had at least one jab by mid May so by the end of May, we should be sorted.
Hopefully the day of release can be brought forward to June the 1st
		
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I very much doubt they will bring release date forward. They've said many times that they need to check the data between the two dates and then if all is well a release will happen.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 19, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			R number rising from what I've just seen ...
		
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Very slightly, and still well below 1 in just about every area of the uk which means it is still dying out, just a little bit slower. Don't believe the shock headlines


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## Ethan (Mar 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Wait until the trial comes back to mix vaccines

First az second phizer lol
		
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My wife (NHS) has had 2 Pfizer, nada. 

There is a trial ongoing of Sputnik and AZ mixed. The basic idea is the same with both, but AZ uses the same adenovirus for both shots. This carries a hypothetical risk that you could point an immune response to the adenovirus for the second shot. Sputnik uses two different adenoviruses to get around this. There is probably little difference in reality, but mixing the two should not be a problem. 

Likewise Pfizer and Moderna are basically similar tech in slightly different vehicles. I had Pfizer first and would happily take Moderna for my second.


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## upsidedown (Mar 19, 2021)

Local paper reporting no Covid intensive care cases in Shropshire for first time in a year.😁


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## jim8flog (Mar 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Of course it will do now schools are back! Nothing to worry about.
		
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 Surely that is the 3 Rs are rising


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## DanFST (Mar 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Very slightly, and still well below 1 in just about every area of the uk which means it is still dying out, just a little bit slower. Don't believe the shock headlines
		
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It's important to note it's not dying out. It's just spreading slower.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			They word on the street seems to be that the first AZ is worse than the second and the second Pfizer is worse than the first. But generally well tolerated.
		
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I heard that yesterday and was very relieved indeed. I admit to thinking "you can bugger off if you think I'm having more of this" when I was feeling very poorly the other night. Still way better than getting Covid (although actually not in my case!) and will be a bit more prepared should I react on 2nd June.


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## andycap (Mar 19, 2021)

I had the astra zeneca jab on Wednesday , very efficient service , but boy did i feel rough Thursday . My  legs felt like i had climbed a mountain , severe lethargy and muscle aches , yet my head felt floaty , dreamy . Could of fell asleep standing up .  Feel fine today though . I have been told that strong reaction is an indicator of a good immune system , dont know how true that is  though ?


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## hovis (Mar 19, 2021)

A guy at work is very ill at the moment with Covid.  At work we are provided with latteral flow tests.   All his house have confirmed covid but him and his wife are showing as negative on the test and is daughter is possitve


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2021)

Work are brilliant 

364 days post lockdown we are having screens installed between the desks lol 

Lucky we thought ahead and asked for them on wheels so we can put away and then winter get them back for flu season 

We also getting a rapid 30 min test centre in the plant room.. not much use now but guess it's worth it lol imagine come in be tested positive and off we go home 

Cutting edge ofc. Quick action


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## larmen (Mar 19, 2021)

3rd wave in Europe. Whats our best guess of it happening here? Have we jabbed enough to get ahead of it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			3rd wave in Europe. Whats our best guess of it happening here? Have we jabbed enough to get ahead of it?
		
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One of the main reasons I believe the 3rd wave is happening is due to the lack of people receiving the vaccine


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## chellie (Mar 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Work are brilliant

364 days post lockdown we are having screens installed between the desks lol

Lucky we thought ahead and asked for them on wheels so we can put away and then winter get them back for flu season

We also getting a rapid 30 min test centre in the plant room.. not much use now but guess it's worth it lol imagine come in be tested positive and off we go home

Cutting edge ofc. Quick action
		
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Eldest was offered a screen that they could wheel around the building with them.


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## Piece (Mar 19, 2021)

Had my first AZ vaccine on Mon late afternoon. Three days in bed. Back to normal this evening. 👌


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## pauljames87 (Mar 20, 2021)

Someone I know posted this .. the CEO of Newham hospital


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 20, 2021)

I think we should now be enforcing a complete ban on incomming passengers into the UK, or if that's too much for some to stomach an  enforced and marshalled 2 week quarantine period at their expense for every traveller into the UK. thats plane, ship or train.
Is Europe hoping their third wave will enter here so they can continue their arguements against the AZ vacine that they say isn't good yet argue we arent giving them enough of?


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 20, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Why not  12  weeks?
		
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I'm in France, and here they believe that best results come from an eight week gap between AZ shots.
I'll trust my doctor.


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## Ethan (Mar 20, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			I'm in France, and here they believe that best results come from an eight week gap between AZ shots.
I'll trust my doctor.
		
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Your doctor may be right but it is more a matter of belief than clinical evidence. If your doctor has actually read the clinical trial evidence then he or she is a rare bird indeed.

The pragmatic view is that the evidence on interval shows that there is a benefit from a longer interval, but a rather small one, and unlikely to be really clinically meaningful. The delay in the UK was presented as a superior dosing regime but in reality was done to clear the decks for more first vax. In population terms, that was reasonable.

Either way, it is fine and 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, whatever, get the shot and you'll be fine.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 20, 2021)

AZ jab on Thursday, felt rough yesterday, still not 100%.  Next jab will be booked for a Monday or Tuesday, not feeling crap on my time again.


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## AliMc (Mar 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			They word on the street seems to be that the first AZ is worse than the second and the second Pfizer is worse than the first. But generally well tolerated.
		
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I had my first AZ on Thursday, had a splitting sore head for a few hours but fine now, my wife was fine after her first Pfizer but felt pretty bad for a day or so after her second, so could be something in that, but as always there are others who are perfectly fine after both doses of either one.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 20, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			AZ jab on Thursday, felt rough yesterday, still not 100%.  Next jab will be booked for a Monday or Tuesday, not feeling crap on my time again.
		
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Lol! My second jab was offering from Sunday 2nd may

I have that week off

Booked it for Friday 7th.. I'll die at work cheers lol


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## davidy233 (Mar 20, 2021)

Had my first jab (AZ) on Thursday evening and was a bit worried as the nurse told me that the most common side effect was a 48 hour high temperature - that would have stopped me working at the football last night as you get temp checked on admission and I didn't fancy a 50 mile drive only to get turned away - but I didn't have any side effects at all - was very impressed with the organisation at the vaccination centre.

Missus get her first jab on Monday, hopefully she doesn't get any side effects too.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 20, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Anyone lose their appetite after their jab?

Sitting here at home on a sporting TV day, normally I'd be thinking about what food and booze to tuck into later, but don't fancy either which is very unusual.
		
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Yes. Things not tasting quite right and making me feel a tad queezy after I've eaten.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 20, 2021)

AliMc said:



			I had my first AZ on Thursday, had a splitting sore head for a few hours but fine now, my wife was fine after her first Pfizer but felt pretty bad for a day or so after her second, so could be something in that, but as always there are others who are perfectly fine after both doses of either one.
		
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I had Pfizer in Jan and was fine. So if I get AZ soon that could be best case scenario - great news.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 20, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I had Pfizer in Jan and was fine. So if I get AZ soon that could be best case scenario - great news.
		
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I don't think they are mixing them, although there is a trial looking at it.  I believe you get a second dose of whatever the first one was, so Pfizer.


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## chellie (Mar 20, 2021)

I had the Pfizer in January and had a sore arm for less than a day. HID had the AZ last Sunday and it was the same for him. Same as after the flu jab.


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## D-S (Mar 20, 2021)

Over 700k doses administered yesterday

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1373304548966682626


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## SaintHacker (Mar 20, 2021)

Interesting that it seems to build daily each week before dropping right off, I'm guessing on a saturday, and starting to go again as each week progresses


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 20, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56469687

An anti lockdown protest just as we are coming out of lockdown 🤷‍♂️


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## Imurg (Mar 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56469687

An anti lockdown protest just as we are coming out of lockdown 🤷‍♂️
		
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Nobody ever said they were bright......🤦‍♂️


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2021)

They are just terrorists without firearms.
I hate them all.


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## larmen (Mar 20, 2021)

What happened to the water cannon Boris bought? Is he using it to clean his drive way? Kärcher XXL ;-)


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## larmen (Mar 20, 2021)

Alternatively, if we can have a variant that only infects people who behave negligent ...


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## AmandaJR (Mar 20, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Panic over!
Just scoffed a Nando's double chicken wrap and working my way through a bottle of Pinot.

Normal service resumed, hope you get back to normal soon enough 👍
		
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Nice! I've had a boiled egg on toast


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## road2ruin (Mar 20, 2021)

Slime said:



			They are just terrorists without firearms.
I hate them all.
		
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Out of interest did you feel that same about BLM, XR protesters etc? Only reason I ask is that I’ve seen plenty of people on social media branding them ‘Covidiots’ etc yet have #BLM etc all over their profile. I bet they weren’t saying the same about those protests last summer, it just happens that they don’t agree with this particular protest and therefore take offence about this lot breaking the rules.


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## Imurg (Mar 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Out of interest did you feel that same about BLM, XR protesters etc? Only reason I ask is that I’ve seen plenty of people on social media branding them ‘Covidiots’ etc yet have #BLM etc all over their profile. I bet they weren’t saying the same about those protests last summer, it just happens that they don’t agree with this particular protest and therefore take offence about this lot breaking the rules.
		
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Modern life in a nutshell.......


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Either way, it is fine and 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, whatever, get the shot and you'll be fine.
		
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Then why argue?


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## Old Skier (Mar 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			What happened to the water cannon Boris bought? Is he using it to clean his drive way? Kärcher XXL ;-)
		
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Now now  this isn't France


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## pauljames87 (Mar 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Out of interest did you feel that same about BLM, XR protesters etc? Only reason I ask is that I’ve seen plenty of people on social media branding them ‘Covidiots’ etc yet have #BLM etc all over their profile. I bet they weren’t saying the same about those protests last summer, it just happens that they don’t agree with this particular protest and therefore take offence about this lot breaking the rules.
		
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Tyrone Ming's and Antony Joshua were involved , got a lot of support 

Tbh only thing that disappointed me in Joshua was he didn't at least wear a mask to set an example


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## Ethan (Mar 20, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			Then why argue?
		
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Not arguing, conversing. Your doctor does not really know if 8 weeks is optimal or not. But it doesn't really matter. 

Trust me, you'll know when I am arguing with you.


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## larmen (Mar 20, 2021)

Are there any updated results based on infectiveness of vaccinated people?

Just wondering with half of us (partly) vaccinated, plenty of the others had it already, what was the initial target for herd immunity a year ago? Wasn’t it 70ish percent?


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## 4LEX (Mar 20, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56469687

An anti lockdown protest just as we are coming out of lockdown 🤷‍♂️
		
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Why is it always the same types at these events? What a gaggle of pond fodder. I bet most of them haven't worked a full week in their lives!


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## Fade and Die (Mar 20, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Why is it always the same types at these events? What a gaggle of pond fodder. I bet most of them haven't worked a full week in their lives! 

Click to expand...

I watched it live for about an hour and I was surprised that they WASN’T the usual types, loads of black and Asians, a lot of young girls and a lot of silver haired ladies and gents. Pretty depressing really.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 20, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Why is it always the same types at these events? What a gaggle of pond fodder. I bet most of them haven't worked a full week in their lives! 

Click to expand...

sounds like the children of the same unwashed that hijacked every miners March in 84. Swampys lad springs to mind. 😳


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I watched it live for about an hour and I was surprised that they WASN’T the usual types, loads of black and Asians, a lot of young girls and a lot of silver haired ladies and gents. Pretty depressing really.
		
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Probably too much time on their hands.  You don't feel much like a protest rally after a hard day's work.


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## 4LEX (Mar 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			sounds like the children of the same unwashed that hijacked every miners March in 84. Swampys lad springs to mind. 😳
		
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At least Swampy had some personality and stuck to his guns by living in a tunnel or up a tree for years. Seeing Swampy's son at the HS2 protest almost brought a tear to the eye


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## Slime (Mar 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Out of interest* did you feel that same about BLM, XR protesters etc?* Only reason I ask is that I’ve seen plenty of people on social media branding them ‘Covidiots’ etc yet have #BLM etc all over their profile. I bet they weren’t saying the same about those protests last summer, it just happens that they don’t agree with this particular protest and therefore take offence about this lot breaking the rules.
		
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Yes.


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## Ethan (Mar 21, 2021)

larmen said:



			Are there any updated results based on infectiveness of vaccinated people?

Just wondering with half of us (partly) vaccinated, plenty of the others had it already, what was the initial target for herd immunity a year ago? Wasn’t it 70ish percent?
		
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Herd immunity is based on 1-1/R, so if R is 3, the percentage needed is 66%. If new variants have a higher R, then that percentage goes up. But herd immunity only stops a pandemic propagating, it doesn't stop case to case transmission. 

The latest (and to be honest it was always this, although Govt experts didn't want to say) on transmission is that vaccination significantly reduces transmission. That stands to reason as a result of reducing replication of virus in exposed people, but real world data from Israel shows the effect too. Harder to quantify than individual risk because you are trying to measure it in the general population, but probably in the same range as the effect on individual risk.


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## Slab (Mar 21, 2021)

@Ethan 
Could you give an opinion on the suitability of the 'covaxin' vaccine in comparison to the more talked about makes?


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## Ethan (Mar 21, 2021)

Slab said:



@Ethan
Could you give an opinion on the suitability of the 'covaxin' vaccine in comparison to the more talked about makes?
		
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As far as I am aware, Covax are not developing their own vaccine, they are trying to access some of the approved brands, AZ (and the Indian brand version Covishield), Pfizer and Moderna for distribution to developing countries. I assume Johnson and Johnson, Novavax and Valneva will be added as they become available. Dunno about Sputnik or the Chinese brands.


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## Slab (Mar 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			As far as I am aware, Covax are not developing their own vaccine, they are trying to access some of the approved brands, AZ (and the Indian brand version Covishield), Pfizer and Moderna for distribution to developing countries. I assume Johnson and Johnson, Novavax and Valneva will be added as they become available. Dunno about Sputnik or the Chinese brands.
		
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Thanks. The island took delivery of 200k covaxin doses a couple of days ago (I guess the wealthiest countries are snapping up all available stock of the 'top brands') and the plan is to start issuing from tomorrow, but I just read that covaxin didn't have WHO approval yet but don't know if that's accurate or the reason for not approving


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## Dannyc (Mar 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Herd immunity is based on 1-1/R, so if R is 3, the percentage needed is 66%. If new variants have a higher R, then that percentage goes up. But herd immunity only stops a pandemic propagating, it doesn't stop case to case transmission. 

The latest (and to be honest it was always this, although Govt experts didn't want to say) on transmission is that vaccination significantly reduces transmission. That stands to reason as a result of reducing replication of virus in exposed people, but real world data from Israel shows the effect too. Harder to quantify than individual risk because you are trying to measure it in the general population, but probably in the same range as the effect on individual risk.
		
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So basically what your saying is once now that we are vaccinated and aside from any crazy mutations that’s beats the virus there is enough evidence showing vaccines will bring a end to all this?

Why would the government not want to tell us this??


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## Ethan (Mar 21, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			So basically what your saying is once now that we are vaccinated and aside from any crazy mutations that’s beats the virus there is enough evidence showing vaccines will bring a end to all this?

Why would the government not want to tell us this??
		
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Assuming no new vaccine-defeating variants come through, basically yes.

Govt have been very concerned to maintain solidarity and get people to stick to the regulations, so immunity certificates (based on having had Covid and developed antibodies) and vaccine passports concern them because they create two different tiers and if the non-immune or non-vaccinated saw the immune and vaccinated being able to do stuff they couldn't do, it would cause social unrest and a massive loss of sticking to the regulations and an increase in cases again. The vaccine passports are inevitable and Govt is preparing for them but they want it to look like they were dragged there by the market, airlines, entertainment venues, football clubs etc.


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## IanM (Mar 21, 2021)

I thought that was the message,  but with the caveats about "early days" and variants.

You need a new flu jab annually,  so I'd be surprised is this were different.


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## Dannyc (Mar 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Assuming no new vaccine-defeating variants come through, basically yes.

Govt have been very concerned to maintain solidarity and get people to stick to the regulations, so immunity certificates (based on having had Covid and developed antibodies) and vaccine passports concern them because they create two different tiers and if the non-immune or non-vaccinated saw the immune and vaccinated being able to do stuff they couldn't do, it would cause social unrest and a massive loss of sticking to the regulations and an increase in cases again. The vaccine passports are inevitable and Govt is preparing for them but they want it to look like they were dragged there by the market, airlines, entertainment venues, football clubs etc.
		
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Excellent news and thanks 👍


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## Ethan (Mar 21, 2021)

Slab said:



			Thanks. The island took delivery of 200k covaxin doses a couple of days ago (I guess the wealthiest countries are snapping up all available stock of the 'top brands') and the plan is to start issuing from tomorrow, but I just read that covaxin didn't have WHO approval yet but don't know if that's accurate or the reason for not approving
		
Click to expand...

Ah, it turns out that Covaxin is an Indian vaccine and I don't think it has to do with the organisation Covax. It is an attenuated virus vaccine, a traditional style vaccine, like the Chinese Sinopharma and Sinovax vaccines and looks like it has an efficacy in the same range as the other EU/UK approved vaccines.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 21, 2021)

Just had my first dose - brilliantly organised at Taunton Racecourse so I backed a winner there.

But I am experiencing what they call "Grease side-effects".    As in I've got chills, they're multiplying ... and I'm losing control ....


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just had my first dose - brilliantly organised at Taunton Racecourse so I backed a winner there.

But I am experiencing what they call "Grease side-effects".    As in I've got chills, they're multiplying ... and I'm losing control ....  

Click to expand...

Just think if you drove home in an electric car, that would be..........


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## D-S (Mar 21, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1373637753557164032


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Just think if you drove home in an electric car, that would be..........
		
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Unfortunately I broke down. I was stranded at the drive-in, branded a fool.  I have no idea what they will think tomorrow at my former learning establishment ....


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## bobmac (Mar 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Just think if you drove home in an electric car, that would be..........
		
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Electrifying


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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2021)

Traminator said:



			So 48 hours on from the jab, I was a bit sleepy most of yesterday with no appetite until the early evening then back to normal.
Scuppered a bottle of wine, feel great today, no after-effects at all.
		
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I'm thinking I may have a virus or something as still feeling a bit ropey. Jab was Tuesday so doubt it's that still.


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## SatchFan (Mar 21, 2021)

Had my jab three weeks ago and no side effects. My wife had hers two days ago and has an alleged craving for chocolate.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not arguing, conversing...
Trust me, you'll know when I am arguing with you.
		
Click to expand...

You might, sadly, think that what you are doing is "conversing," but you'd be wrong, you are arguing.
That seems to be the norm, these days, for argumentative people.
As to trust?


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 21, 2021)

larmen said:



			Alternatively, if we can have a variant that only infects people who behave negligent ...
		
Click to expand...

Negligently...


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## Ethan (Mar 21, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			You might, sadly, think that what you are doing is "conversing," but you'd be wrong, you are arguing.
That seems to be the norm, these days, for argumentative people.
As to trust?


Click to expand...

Whatever, mon ami. I really couldn't care less if you trust me or not. But, unlike your doctor, I have read the data. Au revoir.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2021)

Could've put this in random irritations but as it's a bit covid related....

Spoke to one of my closest friends this evening and he is so down I am truly worried for him... He is a 'people person' loves/thrives interaction with others and that is the last thing available presently... Really want to jump on the train and head west to visit him and try and encourage him out of his depression... Tough times...


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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Could've put this in random irritations but as it's a bit covid related....

Spoke to one of my closest friends this evening and he is so down I am truly worried for him... He is a 'people person' loves/thrives interaction with others and that is the last thing available presently... Really want to jump on the train and head west to visit him and try and encourage him out of his depression... Tough times...
		
Click to expand...

Personally...I'd visit him. I wouldn't think any the worse of someone not staying home to help a friend in need.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 21, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Could've put this in random irritations but as it's a bit covid related....

Spoke to one of my closest friends this evening and he is so down I am truly worried for him... He is a 'people person' loves/thrives interaction with others and that is the last thing available presently... Really want to jump on the train and head west to visit him and try and encourage him out of his depression... Tough times...
		
Click to expand...

Does he have any family locally who could help?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 21, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			Could've put this in random irritations but as it's a bit covid related....

Spoke to one of my closest friends this evening and he is so down I am truly worried for him... He is a 'people person' loves/thrives interaction with others and that is the last thing available presently... Really want to jump on the train and head west to visit him and try and encourage him out of his depression... Tough times...
		
Click to expand...

After what happened to Dan's mate I'd have no hesitation than to jump on that train


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Personally...I'd visit him. I wouldn't think any the worse of someone not staying home to help a friend in need.
		
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My friend lives in Wales and their rules re travel are stricter than ours... I am not up to a four hour drive and would have to take the train... I will be keeping contact and do my best from a distance... Have alerted a few others, in our group of mates, of my concerns and they'll be calling without [hopefully] worrying him further of my concerns for his health... And, yes if it really comes to it I will find a way of getting there...


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## AmandaJR (Mar 21, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			My friend lives in Wales and their rules re travel are stricter than ours... I am not up to a four hour drive and would have to take the train... I will be keeping contact and do my best from a distance... Have alerted a few others, in our group of mates, of my concerns and they'll be calling without [hopefully] worrying him further of my concerns for his health... And, yes if it really comes to it I will find a way of getting there...
		
Click to expand...

He's lucky to have such a good friend.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Does he have any family locally who could help?
		
Click to expand...


Yes, his sister lives fairly nearby and she is also has her concerns about my friend... 
I am sure she is doing all she can especially with both my mates kids living abroad...


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			He's lucky to have such a good friend.
		
Click to expand...


It sort of works both ways... He's been there for us especially when my better half was dealing with her 'issues' with cancer...


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## road2ruin (Mar 22, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			My friend lives in Wales and their rules re travel are stricter than ours... I am not up to a four hour drive and would have to take the train... I will be keeping contact and do my best from a distance... Have alerted a few others, in our group of mates, of my concerns and they'll be calling without [hopefully] worrying him further of my concerns for his health... And, yes if it really comes to it I will find a way of getting there...
		
Click to expand...

If you think things are not right with your friend then ignore the rules. These rules are meant to be there to protect people, if that’s not the case in your friends situation then they should not stop you doing what you feel is right.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2021)

MegaSteve said:



			It sort of works both ways... He's been there for us especially when my better half was dealing with her 'issues' with cancer...
		
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Would a journey not be covered by "essential travel" to care for a vulnerable person?


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## RichA (Mar 22, 2021)

I can't speak for anyone else.
I'm desperate to see my 89 year old father who lives alone, 130 miles away. Phone him every day. Just 7 days until I can go see him for a day of gardening and an outdoor haircut. First time since December. Golf can wait until Tuesday. 
7 days to go. The end is almost in sight.


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## Jack_bfc (Mar 22, 2021)

Just off to get my first 'jab'..


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			I can't speak for anyone else.
I'm desperate to see my 89 year old father who lives alone, 130 miles away. Phone him every day. Just 7 days until I can go see him for a day of gardening and an outdoor haircut. First time since December. Golf can wait until Tuesday.
7 days to go. The end is almost in sight.
		
Click to expand...

I know the feeling so well. Due to travel arrangements not working out for some of our children, its 2 years 4 months since we've seen some of our children/g'children. To say its affecting me mentally/emotionally is a mild understatement.

Unfortunately, the jab over here for us is months away. Once done, the ferry will be booked. We'll rent a place for a month our two and just wallow in family.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2021)

Looks like good results on the US AstraZeneca trials appearing this morning. 

Will Oxford be feeling a bit egg of faced today?


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## RichA (Mar 22, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Will Oxford be feeling a bit egg of faced today?
		
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Why? What have I missed?
Genuine question - not passive aggressive facetiousness.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			Why? What have I missed?
Genuine question - not passive aggressive facetiousness.
		
Click to expand...

Ethan will likely provide a more accurate opinion but the earlier trial done by Oxford was messy, done on a small sample size and used some inadvertently mixed doses. 

Nothing wrong, just always seemed a bit messy for an academic Ivory Tower.


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## IanM (Mar 22, 2021)

Jab number 1 at 17:00hrs today.   (After golf) ... 

No idea which one.  If it doesn't add 20 yards to my drives, I'm ringing Boris to complain


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## D-S (Mar 22, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1373895005765574665


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## RichA (Mar 22, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			Ethan will likely provide a more accurate opinion but the earlier trial done by Oxford was messy, done on a small sample size and used some inadvertently mixed doses.

Nothing wrong, just always seemed a bit messy for an academic Ivory Tower.
		
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Thank you. OAZ jab 1 yesterday morning. I was slightly apprehensive, Mrs A knowing lots of people who know lots of people who suffered suffered unpleasant side effects. 
Felt fine yesterday. Bit of a ropey night's sleep, but woke up at 6 this morning feeling great.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2021)

Had my 1st AZ jab on Saturday, felt achy yesterday, had a bit of a sweaty night but feel absolutely fine this morning.
 Bloody marvellous effort this vaccination program. 👍


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## D-S (Mar 22, 2021)

This is a crying shame

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1373902263966695427


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2021)

D-S said:



			This is a crying shame

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1373902263966695427

Click to expand...

Hardly surprising though is it? The EU have done everything to undermine it. 
Merkel said she wouldn’t have it
Macron says it’s “quasi-ineffective”
20 EU countries suspended its use even though the European Medical Agency said it was safe. It’s all very Black-ops! 😜

Still, good to see the EU leaders are getting lambasted by their own press and are now turning on each other to shift the blame. Merkel even threatening to order the Sputnik just for the Germans, splitting away from the EU policy.


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## ger147 (Mar 22, 2021)

I find it hard to keep up, which one is it that Bill Gates can track me with?


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 22, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I find it hard to keep up, which one is it that Bill Gates can track me with?
		
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He is Pfizer, AZ is Jeff Bezos, Moderna is Mark Zuckerberg, Sputnik is Putin


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 22, 2021)

Just had my jab (AZ) at the main vaccination centre in Milton Keynes, couldn't have been any easier. Arrived about 15 mins before appointment, straight in, jabbed, out and home 5 minutes before actual appointment time. Brilliant setup, all credit to everyone involved.


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## Jack_bfc (Mar 22, 2021)

Just got back from mine in St Annes, first in. Out before 9am.. Just waiting for the side effects to ick in!!!

Drive past Old Links on the way home to wistfully look at an empty golf course....


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## AmandaJR (Mar 22, 2021)

I'm getting serious envy as everyone I've spoken to has been in, stuck and out again whereas I finally got stuck an hour after my scheduled time! I think Huntingdon need to up their game!


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm getting serious envy as everyone I've spoken to has been in, stuck and out again whereas I finally got stuck an hour after my scheduled time! I think Huntingdon need to up their game!
		
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Not everyone Amanda, I turned up 10 minutes before my appointment, I had to queue for 45 minutes outside the community centre then a further 20 minutes inside before getting my jab. Still first world problems eh? 🙂


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## Ethan (Mar 22, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Hardly surprising though is it? The EU have done everything to undermine it.
Merkel said she wouldn’t have it
Macron says it’s “quasi-ineffective”
20 EU countries suspended its use even though the European Medical Agency said it was safe. It’s all very Black-ops! 😜

Still, good to see the EU leaders are getting lambasted by their own press and are now turning on each other to shift the blame. Merkel even threatening to order the Sputnik just for the Germans, splitting away from the EU policy.
		
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The AZ vaccine is a good vax, but the study programme and data set for it was a mess. Next to no older people, the target group for the bleeding vax, a massive mistake on dose leading to an inadvertent dose-response question and differences in the dosing interval and other aspects of the studies causing all sorts of problems with interpreting the results. 

The EMA is a rational regulator and operates on rules. I guarantee you that they advised Oxford/AZ to include older patients, because they approve based on data rather than assumptions that the antibody response is an adequate correlate. Their process are not even slightly black-ops. Individual EU member states have a lot of discretion, and can do their own thing in terms of further restrictions. Once a few imposed controls, all the oteghrs had to consider they own liability if there wa sa problem, so not surprising many followed suit. This sort of thing happens quite often, but usually isn't at the top of the BBC News website or the front page of The Sun. Temporary pauses, especially in a fast moving programme, can be very useful. 

I don't know if Macron meant that it is uncertain if the vax is effective in older patients, which was the issue at the time, but if that is what he meant, that was not an irrational comment. I don't think anyone thought it was actually ineffective in older people, but it was clear that hardly any data was offered in that age group, and that was a mistake that AZ had chosen to make. In the end, the EMA did not limit approval. 

On the recent adverse events, there is evidence that these events are related to the vaccine, but also that the risk is very low, so the overall benefit-risk for the vax has not changed. That was unknowable when the events were first reported, and it was possible that loads more may be uncovered, miscoded as heart attack or stroke or similar. Precisely the same has happened win other safety issues. 

The EU made a contract with AZ, signed the day before the UK contract. The EU relied on good faith and specifically included manufacture at UK sites and also specifically referred to other competitive contracts, but there was a large element of good faith baked in. That good faith was misplaced and the EU has been massively screwed by AZ. No wonder they are angry, they should be.  

But however it all came to pass, the EU has a serious problem. Sputnik has been under review for a while and is basically an alternate version of AZ, and may even have a technical advantage in using 2 different adenovirus vectors thus swerving any immune response acquired after the first vax which reduces the effect of the second. It is not at all irrational to consider using it.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			... unlike your doctor, I have read the data./QUOTE]
He's read the data (I asked him) and, more importantly, he understands the data.
Who to trust, you or my doctor...
I'll take my doctor, thanks.
Have a nice day!
		
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## SaintHacker (Mar 22, 2021)

Be interesting to see if theres a spike in Bristol after what went on last night. Utter morons, should have had the water cannon/rubber bullets turned on them


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Be interesting to see if theres a spike in Bristol after what went on last night. Utter morons, should have had the water cannon/rubber bullets turned on them

Click to expand...

Never understood why we never went down the lines of main line Europe when it comes to violent demos.  A quick splash with a water cannon with permanent dye makes individuals easily identifiable and on a cold night usually send people home pretty sharpish but that's for another heated thread so best left alone.

Kid brother (thats the way I think of him) had his jab and immediately had to bed himself down.  That's the brigade of guards for you  .


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## Ethan (Mar 22, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			He's read the data (I asked him) and, more importantly, he understands the data.
Who to trust, you or my doctor...
I'll take my doctor, thanks.
Have a nice day!
		
Click to expand...

You have a lot of nerve thinking you understand my qualifications or experience, or impugning either with snarky asides. Easy to do on a keyboard, big man. How do you know he understands it? You weren't able to check, because you don't. 

I am comfortable with my qualifications and relevant experience.


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## GB72 (Mar 22, 2021)

Really need to stop watching the news. increases in Europe, some reports of R number back above 1 since the schools went back etc. For my own sanity I so need those relaxations coming in both next Monday and on 12th April and it would feel pretty devastating for either of those to be delayed now.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 22, 2021)

Guy and Ethan

Please stop trading insults or you’ll both get Fraggered😡


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## Billysboots (Mar 22, 2021)

If there’s one thing I’m finding about lockdown now, it’s that every day is Groundhog Day. And if I’m ever in any doubt I simply visit this thread.

🙄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Really need to stop watching the news. increases in Europe, some reports of R number back above 1 since the schools went back etc. For my own sanity I so need those relaxations coming in both next Monday and on 12th April and it would feel pretty devastating for either of those to be delayed now.
		
Click to expand...

I'm almost disengaging from the news as - other than vaccination numbers - I find it getting me down, irritated or angry - and as there is nothing that I can do about any of it for some years I have asked myself why I put myself through it - and so I am not.  I'll hear soon enough of any changes in respect of covid restrictions that will impact me - and so no point in me playing endless what-ifs and if-onlys...my iffy thinking on things I cannot influence has never done me any good in the past.

Meanwhile I'll just try and maintain reasonable peace-of-mind...more able to help and support those who need my help and support through these difficult times.


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## road2ruin (Mar 22, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Really need to stop watching the news. increases in Europe, some reports of R number back above 1 since the schools went back etc. For my own sanity I so need those relaxations coming in both next Monday and on 12th April and it would feel pretty devastating for either of those to be delayed now.
		
Click to expand...

The 29th will happen so wouldn't worry about that. The other thing I would bear in mind is that the R number wasn't part of the unlocking and it was always expected to rise, it is cases and hospitalisations that are going to be key.


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## DRW (Mar 22, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Really need to stop watching the news. increases in Europe, some reports of R number back above 1 since the schools went back etc. For my own sanity I so need those relaxations coming in both next Monday and on 12th April and it would feel pretty devastating for either of those to be delayed now.
		
Click to expand...

I agree don't read to much of the press, they focus to much on the negative stuff. There is always a worst country or like.

Keep going, the weather is getting better, the days are lighter, things are getting better.  I've never met you, but you come across as one of the good guys on here and a joy to read your posts. Keep posting and going.

Not long now, relaxations will happen.


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I'm almost disengaging from the news as - other than vaccination numbers - I find it getting me down, irritated or angry - and as there is nothing that I can do about any of it *for some years I have asked myself why I put myself through it - and so I am not.  I'll hear soon enough of any changes in respect of covid restrictions that will impact me - and so no point in me playing endless what-ifs and if-onlys...my iffy thinking has never done me any good.

Meanwhile I'll just try and maintain reasonable peace-of-mind...more able to help and support those who need my help and support through these difficult times.
		
Click to expand...

I've been telling you to do this for years.
Worrying about stuff you have no control over can't do your health any good.
If anything important happens, we'll let you know


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2021)

DRW said:



			I agree don't read to much of the press, they focus to much on the negative stuff. There is always a worst country or like.

Keep going, the weather is getting better, the days are lighter, things are getting better.  I've never met you, but you come across as one of the good guys on here and a joy to read your posts. Keep posting and going.

Not long now, relaxations will happen.
		
Click to expand...

And the clocks change next week


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've been telling you to do this for years.
Worrying about stuff you have no control over can't do your health any good.
If anything important happens, we'll let you know
		
Click to expand...

Won't stop me calling out liars or cheats when I come across them though...


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## bobmac (Mar 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Won't stop me calling out liars or cheats when I come across them though...

Click to expand...

You don't need to, especially at your age, let the young folk do it. 
Just learn to use ''whatever'' more often and a huge weight will be lifted from your shoulders.


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## DRW (Mar 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And the clocks change next week  

Click to expand...

I think that is something we cant talk about, as its political, we all know the EU issued the directive to ban that happening first and it stopped it being imported to the UK.


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## arnieboy (Mar 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You don't need to, especially at your age, let the young folk do it. 
Just learn to use ''whatever'' more often and a huge weight will be lifted from your shoulders.
		
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That's definitely how I approach life at the moment. Old enough to have been there, done it, got the T shirt etc. Approaching retirement and my only concern is about my grandchildren and what sort of life they will have in this crazy world.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			That's definitely how I approach life at the moment. Old enough to have been there, done it, got the T shirt etc. Approaching retirement and my only concern is about my grandchildren and what sort of life they will have in this crazy world.
		
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Unfortunately as much as there is that I can do on that front there is also much that others do and decide that impact their future, and that we can - to an extent - influence.  So on that, and in the context of this thread - when my lad says that he needs the country to come out of this lockdown slowly, cautiously with robust systems and resilience to the virus in place - because we cannot risk re-opening his life (his life is closed at the moment) for it to be closed down again by a resurgent virus - I listen to *his *wishes - not mine.  And so on that basis I have no time at all for those proponents of going faster in relaxing constraints than the current plan.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2021)

I will mention politicians, but this not political!
Our PM said today the 3rd wave of infections affecting mainland Europe could reach us, makes sense, but hopefully it won’t.
Germany at the weekend were talking about another lockdown and the Oxford/AZ Vaccine is still not being trusted.
I have then read today about tens of thousands of German Tourists arriving in the Balearic Islands over the weekend! Even the Spanish aren’t happy as they themselves face travel restrictions.
Countries in mainland Europe really need to start getting a grip of their citizens, it’s an absolute joke what has/is going on.
We’ve got no chance of staying safe if their behaviour continues.

Thank god we are so far ahead on the vaccination programme as I pray that will give us a barrier to what’s happening over there and lessen any impact on us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I will mention politicians, but this not political!
_*Our PM said today the 3rd wave of infections affecting mainland Europe could reach us, makes sense, but hopefully it won’t.*_
Germany at the weekend were talking about another lockdown and the Oxford/AZ Vaccine is still not being trusted.
I have then read today about tens of thousands of German Tourists arriving in the Balearic Islands over the weekend! Even the Spanish aren’t happy as they themselves face travel restrictions.
Countries in mainland Europe really need to start getting a grip of their citizens, it’s an absolute joke what has/is going on.
We’ve got no chance of staying safe if their behaviour continues.

Thank god we are so far ahead on the caccination programme as I pray that will give us a barrier to what’s happening over there and lessen any impact on us.
		
Click to expand...

Which might well explain why the PM wishes to have a 6month extension to October for the government's lockdown powers - way past the end of his current irreversible (he might wish he and Hancock never started talking of it in those terms) exit plan.  But goodness I hope these powers are not required until October.  Of course the usual suspects in the PM's own party are throwing a wobbly at that idea...but if it is required - I support the PM.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which might well explain why the PM wishes to have a 6month extension to October for the government's lockdown powers - way past the end of his current irreversible *(he might wish he and Hancock never started talking of it in those terms*) exit plan.  But goodness I hope these powers are not required until October.  Of course the usual suspects in the PM's own party are throwing a wobbly at that idea...but if it is required - I support the PM.
		
Click to expand...

Honestly, what is the matter with people and their English, these days.?
If someone says that it is *hoped *for a particular action to be irreversible, and that if "this "and "that "happens, it is believed it will be, etc, etc, how the hell is that then taken by some people that the someone _promised_ it would be irreversible?
Anyone being fair knows that the PM said nothing in that respect which could be taken as a promise, only that it was an objective that was hoped to be achieved.
So, what is the bold above about?   Is it your hearing or your English?😉


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I will mention politicians, but this not political!
Our PM said today the 3rd wave of infections affecting mainland Europe could reach us, makes sense, but hopefully it won’t.
Germany at the weekend were talking about another lockdown and the Oxford/AZ Vaccine is still not being trusted.
I have then read today about tens of thousands of German Tourists arriving in the Balearic Islands over the weekend! Even the Spanish aren’t happy as they themselves face travel restrictions.
Countries in mainland Europe really need to start getting a grip of their citizens, it’s an absolute joke what has/is going on.
We’ve got no chance of staying safe if their behaviour continues.

Thank god we are so far ahead on the vaccination programme as I pray that will give us a barrier to what’s happening over there and lessen any impact on us.
		
Click to expand...

The issue in the Balearics is a little more complex, but it shouldn't be. In the run up to the summer holidays last year a significant number of Germans used whatever leverage they could find to be allowed to travel there. They are the majority holiday home owners in the Balearics by a significant margin. Threats of selling up at knockdown prices and boycotts etc. The local govt, bear in mind each of the regions are semi-autonomous, caved in for fear of the damage to the local economy.

Each of the semi-autonomous regions have 'sealed their borders from last Saturday for 3+weeks to curtail holiday travelling.... apart from Madrid who has said their citizens are free to travel wherever they wish in Spain. In reality, Madrid can say they are free to leave but if the borders 'into' the other regions are sealed, who knows. 

The Madridians haven't taken any notice of any travel ban since June last year, and there's been the odd fight down on the Playa because of it. Cars and motor homes have been arriving throughout the lockdown that has just ended. Not lots but enough to cause friction. I expect Easter will see a few more fights.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Honestly, what is the matter with people and their English, these days.?
If someone says that it is *hoped *for a particular action to be irreversible, and that if "this "and "that "happens, it is believed it will be, etc, etc, how the hell is that then taken by some people that the someone _promised_ it would be irreversible?
Anyone being fair knows that the PM said nothing in that respect which could be taken as a promise, only that it was an objective that was hoped to be achieved.
So, what is the bold above about?   Is it your hearing or your English?😉
		
Click to expand...

I'm not going to debate this - if you think that he and Hancock haven't from the word go described the plan as irreversible then that's what you've heard.  Yes - they've subsequently created some wriggle room around the word...but we all know that this plan is not irreversible and that it makes no sense to describe something as hopefully being irreversible - public expectations and all that.  Something is irreversible or it isn't.  But you heard what you heard.  I heard what I heard and this is what I heard.

"So we have got to be very prudent and what we want to see is progress that is cautious but irreversible. I think that is what the public, people up and down the country, want to see."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56068362

Anyway,  hopefully we never have to engage reverse gear.  And hopefully I haven't drifted into politics - though in context I should express my support for the PM in his lockdown extension contingency.


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## IainP (Mar 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The 29th will happen so wouldn't worry about that. The other thing I would bear in mind is that the R number wasn't part of the unlocking and it was always expected to rise, it is cases and hospitalisations that are going to be key.
		
Click to expand...

I'd go a bit further, UKs testing level which was already high has been increasing with schools back. I think the "system" can handle an amount of cases increase as long as hospitalisations (as you mention) and deaths remain low.

I do share as others the concern with the case numbers around much of mainland Europe, especially as UK loosens it's rules which inevitably means more moving about. Just hope the vac levels are enough to see us through and the mainland cases numbers drop off with the weather improving. 🤞


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## Slime (Mar 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Be interesting to see if theres a spike in Bristol after what went on last night. Utter morons, should have had the water cannon/rubber bullets turned on them

Click to expand...

Are flame throwers off the menu?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The issue in the Balearics is a little more complex, but it shouldn't be. In the run up to the summer holidays last year a significant number of Germans used whatever leverage they could find to be allowed to travel there. They are the majority holiday home owners in the Balearics by a significant margin. Threats of selling up at knockdown prices and boycotts etc. The local govt, bear in mind each of the regions are semi-autonomous, caved in for fear of the damage to the local economy.

Each of the semi-autonomous regions have 'sealed their borders from last Saturday for 3+weeks to curtail holiday travelling.... apart from Madrid who has said their citizens are free to travel wherever they wish in Spain. In reality, Madrid can say they are free to leave but if the borders 'into' the other regions are sealed, who knows.

The Madridians haven't taken any notice of any travel ban since June last year, and there's been the odd fight down on the Playa because of it. Cars and motor homes have been arriving throughout the lockdown that has just ended. Not lots but enough to cause friction. I expect Easter will see a few more fights.
		
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Surely the German Government could of taken steps to prevent travel, I understand it’s a very, very dificult time for those around Europe whose livelihoods depend on tourism, but surely they’ll be returning to Germany sometime.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm not going to debate this - if you think that he and Hancock haven't from the word go described the plan as irreversible then that's what you've heard.  Yes - they've subsequently created some wriggle room around the word...but we all know that this plan is not irreversible and that it makes no sense to describe something as hopefully being irreversible - public expectations and all that.  Something is irreversible or it isn't.  But you heard what you heard.  I heard what I heard and this is what I heard.

"So we have got to be very prudent and what we want to see is progress that is cautious but irreversible. I think that is what the public, people up and down the country, want to see."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56068362

Anyway,  hopefully we never have to engage reverse gear.  And hopefully I haven't drifted into politics - though in context I should express my support for the PM in his lockdown extension contingency.
		
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You're not going to debate it, but then follows fourteen lines of your argument!
And, on your own quote, ..." what we want to see " ... is not saying "what we will see"
Maybe it is your English😀


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 22, 2021)

I think it’s safe to say that foreign holidays off the table which hopefully will give the UK Tourist Industry a bit of a boost


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Surely the German Government could of taken steps to prevent travel, I understand it’s a very, very dificult time for those around Europe whose livelihoods depend on tourism, but surely they’ll be returning to Germany sometime.
		
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Not quite sure what the German regs are at present, or over Easter. But as part of Schengen they are allowed to travel around Europe providing they satisfy the 'local' requirements for entry. Here in Spain its proof of the right to reside, Residencia. The Balearics, over Easter, is part of a pilot scheme the Spanish have agreed with Germany. Crazily, the Germans can travel but the Spanish can't, and that's what is causing the majority of the grief. The Spanish want to travel too but its specifically banned over Easter.


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## Hobbit (Mar 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 35768


I think it’s safe to say that foreign holidays off the table which hopefully will give the UK Tourist Industry a bit of a boost
		
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We're very much coming off a wave, way down than a few weeks back, but it's at a will it won't it go back up - we're seeing a small ripple.

EDIT: lowest number in the village(pop 3700) since the 3rd week of Jan. 32, down 7 since yesterday.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2021)

Just out of interest, it’s being discussed there may be a third wave in this country coz the EU have said there having one. if we are in lockdown as a country that no one is coming in or out. How do we get a third wave. That way it affects no one.


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## Ethan (Mar 22, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just out of interest, it’s being discussed there may be a third wave in this country coz the EU have said there having one. if we are in lockdown as a country that no one is coming in or out. How do we get a third wave. That way it affects no one.
		
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Because its already here and just takes a bit of time to build up. Will be damped a bit by the higher vaccination rates though.


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## Dannyc (Mar 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Because its already here and just takes a bit of time to build up. Will be damped a bit by the higher vaccination rates though.
		
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👍


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## Fade and Die (Mar 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 35768


I think it’s safe to say that foreign holidays off the table which hopefully will give* the UK Tourist Industry* a bit of a boost
		
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Who will be shamelessly ripping us off.... Devon and Dorset cottages nearly £300 a week more this year.😠


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Because its already here and just takes a bit of time to build up. Will be damped a bit by the higher vaccination rates though.
		
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That has deffo not cheered me up ☹️


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just out of interest, it’s being discussed there may be a third wave in this country coz the EU have said there having one. if we are in lockdown as a country that no one is coming in or out. How do we get a third wave. That way it affects no one.
		
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We aren’t stopping flights/freight, even the odd illegal immigrant, yes there are checks, but come on Tash, you genuinely think our borders are sealed?
I’m gobsmacked LPool had to play Leipzig in a nuetral country due to the restrictions and people had to miss funerals due the restrictions, but thousands can just go to Spain. Not sure the Germans know what they’re doing.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			We aren’t stopping flights/freight, even the odd illegal immigrant, yes there are checks, but come on Tash, you genuinely think our borders are sealed?
		
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Nope, but that me point, they should be. 👍


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 22, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Nope, but that me point, they should be. 👍
		
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They can’t be though Tash, we need to import and export food etc, but people can wait for holidays!


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## BiMGuy (Mar 22, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Nope, but that me point, they should be. 👍
		
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Do you honestly think this country would continue to operate for very long if we completely sealed the borders?

We'd descend into chaos in less than a week.


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## Leftitshort (Mar 22, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Nope, but that me point, they should be. 👍
		
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Maybe they should have been a year ago..left you in Mexico 🤣🤣🤣


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			They can’t be though Tash, we need to import and export food etc, but people can wait for holidays!
		
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This....

I'm not too sure that this "wave" is too worrying. Surely it has been born of comparative non lockdown ,together with not too much (enough) vaccination on the continent.
Here however, we have been reaping the rewards of lockdown ( with one or two horrendous non compliance incidents) and our vaccination efforts have been outstanding.
If the vaccinations work as we are told they do, we shouldn't be anything like in as bad a situation as we have been before.?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Do you honestly think this country would continue to operate for very long if we completely sealed the borders?

We'd descend into chaos in less than a week.
		
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What like in New Zealand, Australia and Taiwan 🤔


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## Tashyboy (Mar 22, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Maybe they should have been a year ago..left you in Mexico 🤣🤣🤣
		
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👍 if memory serves me right, it was the UK that went into lockdown not Mexico. Although it’s not doing to good now.


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## D-S (Mar 22, 2021)

The lockdown that they are imposing in France and Germany is no more stringent than the one we will be having until 12th April anyway despite our falling numbers, it’s going to be a minimum 19 weeks from then before we are ‘back to normalit’.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 22, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What like in New Zealand, Australia and Taiwan 🤔
		
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Ooh. You've got me there!


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Because its already here and just takes a bit of time to build up. Will be damped a bit by the higher vaccination rates though.
		
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I thought we'd already had a third wave? Are we saying that Sept through March is a single wave?


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## need_my_wedge (Mar 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			They can’t be though Tash, we need to import and export food etc, but people can wait for holidays!
		
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Gonna have to wait a bit longer, 5K fines for anyone attempting non-essential travel abroad before the end of June.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56493002


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## IainP (Mar 23, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			I thought we'd already had a third wave? Are we saying that Sept through March is a single wave? 

View attachment 35777

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It's semantics and where the lines are drawn, but personally yes I see Sept to Mar as the 2nd. It is only now we see things dropping to where they were in Sept. The mini break in Nov wasn't significant enough IMO.


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2021)

IainP said:



			It's semantics and where the lines are drawn, but personally yes I see Sept to Mar as the 2nd. It is only now we see things dropping to where they were in Sept. The mini break in Nov wasn't significant enough IMO.
		
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I agree - second wave, first wave 2.0, just ways of labelling. More cases is what we should expect, call it what you prefer. The virus hasn't;t been attacking like an invading army sending in a new division of troops on their General's common, it has been endemic throughout, but better suppressed at some times compared to others, and once that suppression relaxes, back it comes.


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## D-S (Mar 23, 2021)

Depends how you look at the wave


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## SaintHacker (Mar 23, 2021)

What I don't understand is, last year when we came out of lockdown 1, things were eased a lot quicker than they are being tis time. We went back to the pub, we met with friends and family again etc. The weather was good so much of it was outdoors, and over the summer the virus died right down. No vaccine, just being outside, social distancing etc. This year we are entering the summer again, we have a vaccine, we have far greater knowledge about the virus, and we have a far higher natural immunity from those who have had the virus, yet we are being warned of yet another wave in the summer? It doesn't make any sense.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			What I don't understand is, last year when we came out of lockdown 1, things were eased a lot quicker than they are being tis time. We went back to the pub, we met with friends and family again etc. The weather was good so much of it was outdoors, and over the summer the virus died right down. No vaccine, just being outside, social distancing etc. This year we are entering the summer again, we have a vaccine, we have far greater knowledge about the virus, and we have a far higher natural immunity from those who have had the virus, yet we are being warned of yet another wave in the summer? It doesn't make any sense.
		
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We are lifting restrictions next Monday 

We are what 12 weeks behind last time? This time last year was start of lockdown... So when we came out was much later in the year with even nicer weather 

Then with regards to more restrictions on travel last time everyone else was ahead of us, better control of the wave, better lockdowns. Etc .. but this time their just entering lockdowns as we leave one 

The gov has spent a lot of cash in this year to get us to today ..some wasted some not. It makes sense to be more cautious and slowly get things going. Last time it appeared to not have any affect but what's to say opening so quickly didn't spread it ready for second wave? Just like eat out to spread out


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			What I don't understand is, last year when we came out of lockdown 1, things were eased a lot quicker than they are being tis time. We went back to the pub, we met with friends and family again etc. The weather was good so much of it was outdoors, and over the summer the virus died right down. No vaccine, just being outside, social distancing etc. This year we are entering the summer again, we have a vaccine, we have far greater knowledge about the virus, and we have a far higher natural immunity from those who have had the virus, yet we are being warned of yet another wave in the summer? It doesn't make any sense.
		
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But we have more transmissible variants and greater lockdown fatigue, and an end of term feeling which could be dangerous. The elder population were the people most likely to die if they got the virus, but not the group most likely to spread it around, and much of the latter are still unvaccinated. If the slowdown in supply lasts, there could be a problem.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Obviously what we did last year didn't work.
		
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I think the latest news that there will be £5k fines for non essential travel emphasise your point. News came out last week that the travel corridor to Greece last august/sept increased the amount of cases that came into the UK. It’s not just us bringing it into the country but exporting the the virus as well. 
As I mentioned yesterday, we needed to be in some kind of lockdown. There’s a difference in import and exporting food, vaccines etc and going on a cheeky weekend in Benidorm.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			and going on a cheeky weekend in Benidorm.
		
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Or a cheeky fortnight to Mexico?


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## SaintHacker (Mar 23, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Obviously what we did last year didn't work.
		
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In a way thoughit did. It came back as expected in the winter when we all moved back indoors. 
I just fail to see, given all the improvements we have over last year, vaccine, testing, quarantines etc, other than a vaccine resistant strain surfacing (and pray to whichever god you choose it doesn't) how there can be another wave in this country. Prof Whity himself said when we vaccinate 50% of the population we've won, and we're just about there.
Just getting very very fed up with the constant snippets of good news followed by a load of doom mongering.


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## Kellfire (Mar 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			In a way thoughit did. It came back as expected in the winter when we all moved back indoors.
I just fail to see, given all the improvements we have over last year, vaccine, testing, quarantines etc, other than a vaccine resistant strain surfacing (and pray to whichever god you choose it doesn't) how there can be another wave in this country. Prof Whity himself said when we vaccinate 50% of the population we've won, and we're just about there.
Just getting very very fed up with the constant snippets of good news followed by a load of doom mongering.
		
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It’s not doom mongering, it’s realism after so many mistakes make in the past where we didn’t lockdown soon enough, hard enough or for long enough.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Or a cheeky fortnight to Mexico?
		
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Now you are banned, then you wasn't 😉


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Now you are banned, then you wasn't 😉
		
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They were hoping for common sense 

They overestimated the great British public so now it's banned


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			But we have more transmissible variants and greater lockdown fatigue, and an end of term feeling which could be dangerous. The elder population were the people most likely to die if they got the virus, but not the group most likely to spread it around, and much of the latter are still unvaccinated. If the slowdown in supply lasts, there could be a problem.
		
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Yes that is so, however, there are some pluses this time , are there not?
This time the easement of restrictions is to be better managed ( if people behave and like you say control their fatigue and end of term feelings).
The vaccinations _*must*_ be a large factor in our favour, not just as regards illness, but as regards transmissions as well. But, yes, your point re the ones who spread it most not being the ones vaccinated is the *kicker.*
Time for those who have been vaccinated *not *to start demanding too much "freedom" too soon, in light of this inconvenient  truth.
So, HMG, on and on with the vaccinations please😀😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			In a way thoughit did. It came back as expected in the winter when we all moved back indoors.
I just fail to see, given all the improvements we have over last year, vaccine, testing, quarantines etc, other than a vaccine resistant strain surfacing (and pray to whichever god you choose it doesn't) how there can be another wave in this country. Prof Whity himself said when we vaccinate 50% of the population we've won, and we're just about there.
Just getting very very fed up with the constant snippets of good news followed by a load of doom mongering.
		
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You are right, but don't let that fool you into pushing too hard on the "floodgates of freedom".  Ethan's points re who spreads it most are valid, too valid, for us to drop our guard.
If we eased off too much, the ones who haven't been vaccinated happen to be the group who would use the easements more and thus be able to spread it. more.  I.e. By age , economics, families and leisure activities etc, they are the ones most likely to be out and about more, pubs, cinemas, football matches etc.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are right, but don't let that fool you into pushing too hard on the "floodgates of freedom".  Ethan's points re who spreads it most are valid, too valid, for us to drop our guard.
*If we eased off too much, the ones who haven't been vaccinated happen to be the group who would use the easements more and thus be able to spread it*. more.  I.e. By age , economics, families and leisure activities etc, they are the ones most likely to be out and about more, pubs, cinemas, football matches etc.
		
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But by the same token this is the group that are least affected by it. The lockdowns were to protect the elderly and vulnerable, they're all now vaccinated. We were told once they were done we could start getting back to normal.I don't disagree woth coming out of it slowly, it seems a very sensible course of action.  We've had over  year of major disruption to say the least, livlihoods have been destroyed, companies have failed, and more will once the furlough ends. If its saved lives then its worth it, but we can't keep this up. To be told the end is in sight, to we might need to wear masks social distance etc for years, to there may be a third wave and another lockdown. Its just so massively demoralising. I probably sound selfish but its the way I feel unfortunately. I'm very grateful that I am well and so are my loved ones, but I want my life back.


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## road2ruin (Mar 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But by the same token this is the group that are least affected by it. The lockdowns were to protect the elderly and vulnerable, they're all now vaccinated. We were told once they were done we could start getting back to normal.I don't disagree woth coming out of it slowly, it seems a very sensible course of action.  We've had over  year of major disruption to say the least, livlihoods have been destroyed, companies have failed, and more will once the furlough ends. If its saved lives then its worth it, but we can't keep this up. To be told the end is in sight, to we might need to wear masks social distance etc for years, to there may be a third wave and another lockdown. Its just so massively demoralising. I probably sound selfish but its the way I feel unfortunately. I'm very grateful that I am well and so are my loved ones, but I want my life back.
		
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I cannot see there being further lockdowns, it just not possible on both a economic and social basis. The goal posts have already been moved in terms of reopening, the vulnerable (who account for the vast majority of hospitalisations and deaths) are now either protected or will be very shortly so how can there ever be further lockdowns? The vaccination seems to be effective against present variants so there should never been the need to lockdown against a Covid virus. Will further people die of it? Yes, that's going to be unavoidable however it is not going to disappear and people die each year from various ailments that we cannot be protected from. We are going to have to take our chances at some point and, for me, that point is rapidly arriving. I am not suggesting we open the floodgates right away however with the vaccination roll out almost complete amongst those most at risk then there should be no excuses to extend lockdowns/restrictions etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I cannot see there being further lockdowns, it just not possible on both a economic and social basis. The goal posts have already been moved in terms of reopening, the vulnerable (who account for the vast majority of hospitalisations and deaths) are now either protected or will be very shortly so how can there ever be further lockdowns? The vaccination seems to be effective against present variants so there should never been the need to lockdown against a Covid virus. Will further people die of it? Yes, that's going to be unavoidable however it is not going to disappear and people die each year from various ailments that we cannot be protected from. We are going to have to take our chances at some point and, for me, that point is rapidly arriving. I am not suggesting we open the floodgates right away however with the vaccination roll out almost complete amongst those most at risk then there should be no *excuses *to extend lockdowns/restrictions etc.
		
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...but there might be very good *reasons *that require it - as much as that could have serious impacts on many and so we should do everything we can to come out the lockdown cautiously and robustly.


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## road2ruin (Mar 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...but there might be very good *reasons *that require it.
		
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The only good reason that I can think of would be a mutation of the virus that increases its mortality i.e. makes it deadly to all who have not been vaccinated. In that case yes, but a more transmissible variant etc should not be a reason given that those who needed the vaccine have almost all had it.


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## GB72 (Mar 23, 2021)

It is interesting how generic the term lockdown has become. Having read a few articles on the new 'lockdown' imposed in Germany, it is not even as strict as what we will be subject to after 29th May and much of what is still allowed will be prevented here until May or even June.


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## RichA (Mar 23, 2021)

Hopefully, the easing of lockdown won't have too dramatic an effect. 
I've been (un)lucky enough to have been working throughout the pandemic, commuting into London from Herts. 
The trains and underground have been back up to what feels like 50% of normal for weeks now. People at my work sitting in cars and busy offices without masks, speaking of weekend visits to grandparents. 
As much as I've been overly protective of my father for a year now, I know that he has been meeting up with friends occasionally, who have been meeting up with friends, who have been seeing their grandchildren, who share time with separated parents and are now back at school.
The relaxation of rules over christmas clearly caused a spike in deaths that many families will have to live with, which backs up the theory that transmission is far more likely in the home. 
It's starting to feel like it will have been survival of the fittest and luckiest, rather than a strict communal effort to protect the weakest.
Fingers crossed that the country's improving luck continues with the vaccination effort and spreads abroad.


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes that is so, however, there are some pluses this time , are there not?
This time the easement of restrictions is to be better managed ( if people behave and like you say control their fatigue and end of term feelings).
The vaccinations _*must*_ be a large factor in our favour, not just as regards illness, but as regards transmissions as well. But, yes, your point re the ones who spread it most not being the ones vaccinated is the *kicker.*
Time for those who have been vaccinated *not *to start demanding too much "freedom" too soon, in light of this inconvenient  truth.
So, HMG, on and on with the vaccinations please😀😀
		
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Yes, the vaccinations should blunt the magnitude of the next wave. As for demanding freedoms, these things reach a tipping point. The Govt knows well that their pronouncements on the major success (which it undoubtedly is) of vaccination also sound a lot like a countdown to going back to (near-)normal and at some time the people will decide they have waited long enough.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 23, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We're very much coming off a wave, way down than a few weeks back, but it's at a will it won't it go back up - we're seeing a small ripple.

EDIT: lowest number in the village(pop 3700) since the 3rd week of Jan. 32, down 7 since yesterday.
		
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Blimey. That seems high to me? 
Works out at  864 per 100k.  Which is not far off what we (ie Lewisham) were when we were at our worst - about 1000 per 100k. Fingers crossed that you come down a lot further quickly.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You have a lot of nerve thinking you understand my qualifications or experience...
I am comfortable with my qualifications and relevant experience.
		
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And you, sir, have a lot of nerve implying that my doctor doesn't know what he's doing.
I'll trust my doctor over someone posting on a golf forum about medicine.


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			snip
I'll trust my doctor over someone posting on a golf forum about medicine.
		
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This I agree with completely, you should trust your doctor or the governments medical bodies/advice more than people on a golf forum. Yeah question your doctor etc, look on proper medical websites, proper medical twitter feeds, medical books if it takes your fancy or interest. I have learnt alot over the last year, its been great for me, a bit like going back to university/professional studying and learning.

People post under made up names, potentially with or without professional liability if providing advice/chat on forums. I post under not my name for example and sometimes post advice on my field but on any forum, I consider posts as talking to the man down the pub kind of talk EDIT with no disrespect to anyone meant.


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2021)

GuyInLyon said:



			And you, sir, have a lot of nerve implying that my doctor doesn't know what he's doing.
I'll trust my doctor over someone posting on a golf forum about medicine.
		
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Cool.

By the way, I was not implying your doctor doesn't know what he is doing. I was implying that interpretation of clinical trial data is a special skill and if your GP can actually do it well, he is rather unusual amongst GPs.


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2021)

DRW said:



			This I agree with completely, you should trust your doctor or the governments medical bodies/advice more than people on a golf forum. Yeah question your doctor etc, look on proper medical websites, proper medical twitter feeds, medical books if it takes your fancy or interest. I have learnt alot over the last year, its been great for me, a bit like going back to university/professional studying and learning.

People post under made up names, potentially with or without professional liability if providing advice/chat on forums. I post under not my name for example and sometimes post advice on my field but on any forum, I consider posts as talking to the man down the pub kind of talk EDIT with no disrespect to anyone meant.
		
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Some disrespect unavoidable. At least you did not mean it.


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## Ethan (Mar 23, 2021)

In the interests of those offended or upset by the stuff I post, I will cease doing so. Happy to share my qualifications with anyone who wishes to see them.

Just to be clear, I don't post medical advice. I post medical information and my interpretation of material which is within my professional expertise. Although clearly not as well informed as Guy's GP.


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## drdel (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In the interests of those offended or upset by the stuff I post, I will cease doing so. Happy to share my qualifications with anyone who wishes to see them.
		
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The stuff you post is usually quite informative.

However IMO you can have a short fuse and come across as arrogant and aggressive when someone critises.


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## GB72 (Mar 23, 2021)

How quickly things change. A few days ago I was hacked off about the delays with the vaccinations (not blaming anyone just hacked off), 5 minutes ago I get an NHS text saying I will be invited shortly, 3 minutes ago I have a text from the doctors surgery asking me to book and now I am booked in to be jabbed on Thursday afternoon. No idea what caused the sudden change but looks like Grantham are vaccinating the 45-50 age group.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2021)

drdel said:



			The stuff you post is usually quite informative.

However IMO you can have a short fuse and come across as arrogant and aggressive when someone critises.
		
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I'll go with the view that is informed by expertise, analysis, data and information rather than that which is based upon feelings, assertion and what I want.  One holds water - the other might also but usually only temporarily and in the manner of a colander.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In the interests of those offended or upset by the stuff I post, I will cease doing so. Happy to share my qualifications with anyone who wishes to see them.

Just to be clear, I don't post medical advice. I post medical information and my interpretation of material which is within my professional expertise. Although clearly not as well informed as Guy's GP.
		
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just for the record I have been far more educated over this last year for your input in this flippin Covid than any Dr I know.
And for that I sincerely thank you. 👍


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## DanFST (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In the interests of those offended or upset by the stuff I post, I will cease doing so. Happy to share my qualifications with anyone who wishes to see them.

Just to be clear, I don't post medical advice. I post medical information and my interpretation of material which is within my professional expertise. Although clearly not as well informed as Guy's GP.
		
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You've gone off piste once or twice at me, but please don't stop posting! 

Far more informative and insightful than most resources.


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## RichA (Mar 23, 2021)

DanFST said:



			You've gone off piste once or twice at me, but please don't stop posting!
		
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What he said. You certainly make things interesting. Without your posts I wouldn't have refreshed my knowledge of Empiricism v Rationalism and spent the last hour reading about John Locke, Voltaire and Bertrand Russell. I'll sleep well tonight and for that at least, I'm grateful.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2021)

GB72 said:



			How quickly things change. A few days ago I was hacked off about the delays with the vaccinations (not blaming anyone just hacked off), 5 minutes ago I get an NHS text saying I will be invited shortly, 3 minutes ago I have a text from the doctors surgery asking me to book and now I am booked in to be jabbed on Thursday afternoon. No idea what caused the sudden change but looks like Grantham are vaccinating the 45-50 age group.
		
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It's so interesting considering they said no booking of 1st jabs for the under 50s for next 3 weeks or so
Sod it.. good luck!


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2021)

GB72 said:



			How quickly things change. A few days ago I was hacked off about the delays with the vaccinations (not blaming anyone just hacked off), 5 minutes ago I get an NHS text saying I will be invited shortly, 3 minutes ago I have a text from the doctors surgery asking me to book and now I am booked in to be jabbed on Thursday afternoon. No idea what caused the sudden change but looks like Grantham are vaccinating the 45-50 age group.
		
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There is a lot to be used up quickly - before the end of the week before some of the major sites are shutting down for a month, 1 due to slow down in supply & 2 GPS going back with staff to catch up,on day to day stuff.

Even some door to door vaccinating going on in the Midlands

Not going to need my flask of Bovril for a month.


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## GB72 (Mar 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is a lot to be used up quickly - before the end of the week before some of the major sites are shutting down for a month, 1 due to slow down in supply & 2 GPS going back with staff to catch up,on day to day stuff.

Even some door to door vaccinating going on in the Midlands

Not going to need my flask of Bovril for a month.
		
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Guessed that may be the case as I was offered Thursday, Thursday or Thursday as my choice for booking in. Guess there was some left so as I am in the first group for the under 50s I managed to slip in. As Ethan has said on here a few times, if you are offered a lifeboat you get in the first one available.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In the interests of those offended or upset by the stuff I post, I will cease doing so. Happy to share my qualifications with anyone who wishes to see them.

Just to be clear, I don't post medical advice. I post medical information and my interpretation of material which is within my professional expertise. Although clearly not as well informed as Guy's GP.
		
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Please keep posting.  You have clarified much that the layman needs clarifying.


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In the interests of those offended or upset by the stuff I post, I will cease doing so. Happy to share my qualifications with anyone who wishes to see them.

Just to be clear, I don't post medical advice. I post medical information and my interpretation of material which is within my professional expertise. Although clearly not as well informed as Guy's GP.
		
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Its interesting, your post just made me read my institutes guidance over use of social media, never read it before. It has just convinced me to stop posting on forums/social media about anything to do with my profession. As do also post elsewhere sometimes to help people out 

TBH Quite taken a back by what it says actually, like not using fake names, conduct, professional behaviour and so on. Alot of which is fine and dandy but still a long list that I will have to consider, will have a proper read later.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In the interests of those offended or upset by the stuff I post, I will cease doing so. Happy to share my qualifications with anyone who wishes to see them.

Just to be clear, I don't post medical advice. I post medical information and my interpretation of material which is within my professional expertise. Although clearly not as well informed as Guy's GP.
		
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I for one hope you don't stop posting about these topics as you clearly have considerable expertise in this area. Having worked in pharma but not in a clinical setting you've certainly broadened my knowledge and understanding.
I find it positive that you back up your statements and if some don't like robust debate then so be it.
I much prefer people from an academic background to explain the science to the general public rather than wear it as a badge of honour or something to show off about. You IMHO have done the former and not the latter.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's so interesting considering they said no booking of 1st jabs for the under 50s for next 3 weeks or so
Sod it.. good luck!
		
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Sometimes it’s just a case of being in the right place at the right time. A couple of times during the vaccination lower age groups have been invited, only for it to be cancelled for a week or so. But the bookings being honoured anyway. Early bird  etc 👍


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## Slime (Mar 23, 2021)

Just out of curiosity, are there any anti-vaxxers on this site who are willing to admit it?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 23, 2021)

Slime said:



			Just out of curiosity, are there any anti-vaxxers on this site who are willing to admit it?
		
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You have more chance of someone saying they went to Mexico last March 😁


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2021)

Slime said:



			Just out of curiosity, are there any anti-vaxxers on this site who are willing to admit it?
		
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I do the dusting, the wife does that vaxxing


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## Billysboots (Mar 23, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			I for one hope you don't stop posting about these topics as you clearly have considerable expertise in this area. Having worked in pharma but not in a clinical setting you've certainly broadened my knowledge and understanding.
I find it positive that you back up your statements and *if some don't like robust debate then so be it.*
I much prefer people from an academic background to explain the science to the general public rather than wear it as a badge of honour or something to show off about. You IMHO have done the former and not the latter.
		
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I have absolutely no problem with anyone sharing knowledge and expertise, and I’ve followed what the poster has had to say with interest. 

However, there is a massive difference between robust debate and adopting a belittling, patronising tone with anyone who proffers a contrasting opinion.

As someone who was recognised as an expert witness in my chosen specialism during my last 20 years’ police service, I am used to working with experts, and invariably I have found there are two kinds. Those who remain down to Earth and demonstrate humility, and those who have a very lofty opinion of themselves.

The former are willing and able to enter into debate with anyone, including those who hold different opinions, reinforcing their stance using clear rationale and doing so in a professional manner. The latter, far too quickly, take contrasting opinions as a slur on their expertise and adopt a combative approach. I used to see it in my own office, when my staff sometimes responded to defence experts’ reports as though they were on a personal crusade.

I’m afraid, whilst finding the poster in question enlightening in what he has to say, and a fantastic source of what appears to be qualified expert opinion, all too often he undermines every word he types by adopting a parent/child approach to those disagreeing with him. It might only be a word or a sentence, but it’s clearly designed to put others firmly in their place, and it’s totally unnecessary.

A genuine shame, and I mean that most sincerely.


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## Old Skier (Mar 23, 2021)

That reminds me, anyone been in contact with @HomerJSimpson


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## Billysboots (Mar 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			That reminds me, anyone been in contact with @HomerJSimpson

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I was wondering only yesterday where he has been.


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## DRW (Mar 23, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I do the dusting, the wife does that vaxxing
		
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I dont do either, does that make me an anti-vaxxer?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I do the dusting, the wife does that vaxxing
		
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That sucks


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## Hobbit (Mar 23, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That sucks
		
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I was thinking of selling the vac, as it was only gathering dust.... I'll get my coat.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I was wondering only yesterday where he has been.
		
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I really hope he's well. He did post some things when he appeared to be under pressure at work and maybe regrets now.  If he's reading any of this then I hope he comes back, I think we've all been in that situation at some time in our lives so understand how he must have been feeling.


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## Papas1982 (Mar 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			That reminds me, anyone been in contact with @HomerJSimpson

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Still lurking.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 23, 2021)

[QUOTE="GuyInLyon, post: 2329824, member: 29895"

I'll trust my doctor over someone posting on a golf forum about medicine.[/QUOTE]

Have you not read Ethan's many posts on here answering questions and advice? 
It's very clear that he has vast experience and knowledge of coronavirus and trial data. Which is what we all need to hear and have a lot of trust in all he says. 
So let's get it right, he's not just a poster on a golf forum talking about medicine.


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## jim8flog (Mar 23, 2021)

IanM said:



			Jab number 1 at 17:00hrs today.   (After golf) ...

No idea which one.  If it doesn't add 20 yards to my drives, I'm ringing Boris to complain
		
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 It will add 20 yards to your a lot of your drives, all those ones going in the wrong direction.


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## Slime (Mar 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			That reminds me, anyone been in contact with @HomerJSimpson

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Yeah.
He's just taking a bit of time off and, in many respects, I don't blame him.


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## jim8flog (Mar 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			What I don't understand is, last year when we came out of lockdown 1, things were eased a lot quicker than they are being tis time. We went back to the pub, we met with friends and family again etc. The weather was good so much of it was outdoors, and over the summer the virus died right down. No vaccine, just being outside, social distancing etc. This year we are entering the summer again, we have a vaccine, we have far greater knowledge about the virus, and we have a far higher natural immunity from those who have had the virus, yet we are being warned of yet another wave in the summer? It doesn't make any sense.
		
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 The covid doing the rounds then was a different covid to the one doing the rounds now. What has become known as the Kent variation or if you are abroad the English variation is now the dominant strain in the UK. 

Also bear in mind that so far only about 2 million have received the full vaccination. For the majority of   65 to 70s second does will not start until early May and so on.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I have absolutely no problem with anyone sharing knowledge and expertise, and I’ve followed what the poster has had to say with interest. 

However, there is a massive difference between robust debate and adopting a belittling, patronising tone with anyone who proffers a contrasting opinion.

As someone who was recognised as an expert witness in my chosen specialism during my last 20 years’ police service, I am used to working with experts, and invariably I have found there are two kinds. Those who remain down to Earth and demonstrate humility, and those who have a very lofty opinion of themselves.

The former are willing and able to enter into debate with anyone, including those who hold different opinions, reinforcing their stance using clear rationale and doing so in a professional manner. The latter, far too quickly, take contrasting opinions as a slur on their expertise and adopt a combative approach. I used to see it in my own office, when my staff sometimes responded to defence experts’ reports as though they were on a personal crusade.

I’m afraid, whilst finding the poster in question enlightening in what he has to say, and a fantastic source of what appears to be qualified expert opinion, all too often he undermines every word he types by adopting a parent/child approach to those disagreeing with him. It might only be a word or a sentence, but it’s clearly designed to put others firmly in their place, and it’s totally unnecessary.

A genuine shame, and I mean that most sincerely.
		
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Maybe before sticking the boot in some may reflect on how they reply when their own area of expertise is criticised. 
Let he without sin and all that....


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## RichA (Mar 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			...I have found there are two kinds...
		
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Likewise - those who others refer to as an expert and those who refer to themselves as an expert. I find it absolutely adorable when anyone manages to fit the word expert into their job title.
Almost as fabulous as when a shop assistant introduces themself as the "product genius."


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2021)

I have found what Ethan has written in respect of his expert knowledge on this Covid thing to be enlightening and reassuring. I'm glad he has posted - I'm sure it has helped a lot.
But, at times,  Ethan has jumped down the throats of anyone daring to state a different opinion. And offering a different opinion is something we all are entitled to do.
This latest "spat"  seems to have started when someone declared accepting the word of his GP over Ethan's.  
Let's be objective here.. We almost all use "handles" rather than our real names on this forum. It is the usual practice, in fact, a recommended practice.
Going along with this, it is important to know and acknowledge that who and what we say we are may or may not be true.
It is a fact of life on the internet.
Ethan *knows if *he is what he says he is . We do not. We may believe he is, but we do not know. 
That goes for all of us posters.
If you went to your Dr and said during your conversation" You sure? Some chap on the forum on the internet is an expert in this subject and says different....."
What sort of look would you expect from him?😀

I think it's fair enough for someone, in upholding their opinion , or that of an expert known by them to be so, to query whether what someone on a  forum , (stating other opinion, )says is correct, and whether he is an expert in a particular field and thus qualified to give an opinion.

Having said that, and mindful of the caveat above, I think Ethan is genuine and so is his information.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 23, 2021)

The one thing that should not be in doubt is Ethans credentials in regards his medical knowledge- people can agree or disagree with his opinion on things but he posts in regards Covid etc from a position of knowledge and prob a lot more than most on here. 

He appears to be for a good number a valuable source of information


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## Billysboots (Mar 23, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Maybe before sticking the boot in some may reflect on how they reply when their own area of expertise is criticised.
Let he without sin and all that....
		
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I’m more than happy to hold my hand up and admit that I have struck out on occasion. And invariably, when I have done that, I have gone on to engage with those I have “fallen out” with via a private message and we have settled our differences. 

Regardless, I’m mindful of the principle that two wrongs don’t make a right, so in the event I am not beyond criticism myself, and I know I’m certainly not, it hardly makes the conduct I describe in my earlier post any more agreeable.


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## larmen (Mar 23, 2021)

GB72 said:



			How quickly things change. A few days ago I was hacked off about the delays with the vaccinations (not blaming anyone just hacked off), 5 minutes ago I get an NHS text saying I will be invited shortly, 3 minutes ago I have a text from the doctors surgery asking me to book and now I am booked in to be jabbed on Thursday afternoon. No idea what caused the sudden change but looks like Grantham are vaccinating the 45-50 age group.
		
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Well, you think they are reading your internet ‘rants’ now, just wait until they chipped you ;-)


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## Billysboots (Mar 23, 2021)

RichA said:



			Likewise - those who others refer to as an expert and those who refer to themselves as an expert. I find it absolutely adorable when anyone manages to fit the word expert into their job title.
Almost as fabulous as when a shop assistant introduces themself as the "product genius."
		
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Not entirely sure what you’re getting at, but if it’s a dig at my comment regarding my status in my role, it’s a fact I’m afraid that certain roles attract recognised expert witness status. The term is out there for anyone who cares to let Google be their best mate.


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## Billysboots (Mar 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I have found what Ethan has written in respect of his expert knowledge on this Covid thing to be enlightening and reassuring. I'm glad he has posted - I'm sure it has helped a lot.
But, at times,  Ethan has jumped down the throats of anyone daring to state a different opinion. And offering a different opinion is something we all are entitled to do.
This latest "spat"  seems to have started when someone declared accepting the word of his GP over Ethan's. 
Let's be objective here.. We almost all use "handles" rather than our real names on this forum. It is the usual practice, in fact, a recommended practice.
Going along with this, it is important to know and acknowledge that who and what we say we are may or may not be true.
It is a fact of life on the internet.
Ethan *knows if *he is what he says he is . We do not. We may believe he is, but we do not know.
That goes for all of us posters.
If you went to your Dr and said during your conversation" You sure? Some chap on the forum on the internet is an expert in this subject and says different....."
What sort of look would you expect from him?😀

I think it's fair enough for someone, in upholding their opinion , or that of an expert known by them to be so, to query whether what someone on a  forum , (stating other opinion, )says is correct, and whether he is an expert in a particular field and thus qualified to give an opinion.

Having said that, and mindful of the caveat above, I think Ethan is genuine and so is his information.
		
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Spot on. Every word.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The one thing that should not be in doubt is Ethans credentials in regards his medical knowledge- people can agree or disagree with his opinion on things but he posts in regards Covid etc from a position of knowledge and prob a lot more than most on here.

He appears to be for a good number a valuable source of information
		
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I prefer his advice on shafts 😉


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## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2021)

DRW said:



			I dont do either, does that make me an anti-vaxxer?
		
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Maybe on Vacation


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## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2021)

Vote now ! Ethan for prime minister or health secretary


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## RichA (Mar 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Not entirely sure what you’re getting at...
		
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I was mostly just amusing myself about this paragraph...


Billysboots said:



			As someone who was recognised as an expert witness in my chosen specialism during my last 20 years’ police service, I am used to working with experts, and invariably I have found there are two kinds. Those who remain down to Earth and demonstrate humility, and those who have a very lofty opinion of themselves.
		
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and wondering which camp you feel fits your description of yourself: the humble self-described expert or the type with the lofty opinion of himself.


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## GB72 (Mar 23, 2021)

larmen said:



			Well, you think they are reading your internet ‘rants’ now, just wait until they chipped you ;-)
		
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Yeah but I am hoping for decent 5g reception


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## Billysboots (Mar 23, 2021)

RichA said:



			I was mostly just amusing myself about this paragraph...

and wondering which camp you feel fits your description of yourself: the humble self-described expert or the type with the lofty opinion of himself.
		
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I’m quite comfortable that I know my limits, as anyone I worked with for twenty odd years will tell you, so I know my place!

And to clarify, there is no such thing as an expert witness who is “self-described”. Google it and you’ll see what I’m talking about.


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## 4LEX (Mar 23, 2021)

I don't wish to get into any arguments on the latest issue (for a change ).

But today has been pretty emotional with it being a year of lockdown and hope everyone else is OK and remember better times are coming


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## Dannyc (Mar 23, 2021)

Keep posting Ethan


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## Billysboots (Mar 23, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			Keep posting Ethan
		
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I absolutely agree. As I have said many times I enjoy reading what Ethan has to say on a subject which is close to us all, and hope he continues.

It’s not what is said which is the issue for me, never has been.


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## Captainron (Mar 24, 2021)

I have noticed that the traffic on the roads is now nearly back to pre COVID levels.


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## road2ruin (Mar 24, 2021)

I’ve read in the papers this morning that the plan is to start vaccinations of children in August and I just admit I don’t know how I feel about this. 

I’m not an anti-vaxxer, I’ve had everything that I’m supposed to have and my daughter (6yrs) has had likewise however I’m not convinced (at the moment) I would have her vaccinated against something that carries so little risk to her personally. Covid, fortunately, carries almost zero risk to children. I think I would want to see longer term data before having her given the jab.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’ve read in the papers this morning that the plan is to start vaccinations of children in August and I just admit I don’t know how I feel about this.

I’m not an anti-vaxxer, I’ve had everything that I’m supposed to have and my daughter (6yrs) has had likewise however I’m not convinced (at the moment) I would have her vaccinated against something that carries so little risk to her personally. Covid, fortunately, carries almost zero risk to children. I think I would want to see longer term data before having her given the jab.
		
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I think 16-18 should be fine no issues 

Would understand secondary school ages and above 

Primary like yourself I'm not sure about but got to trust science 

Guess they get their BCG and others that early


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## Kellfire (Mar 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’ve read in the papers this morning that the plan is to start vaccinations of children in August and I just admit I don’t know how I feel about this.

I’m not an anti-vaxxer, I’ve had everything that I’m supposed to have and my daughter (6yrs) has had likewise however I’m not convinced (at the moment) I would have her vaccinated against something that carries so little risk to her personally. Covid, fortunately, carries almost zero risk to children. I think I would want to see longer term data before having her given the jab.
		
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 She’ll grow old one day and then it’s a greater risk to her. Plus she could be a carrier and thus a risk to you and her grandparents. There is also the possibility of future variants that are much more dangerous to children (and everyone else) that these vaccinations can help to prevent. 

It’s a bigger picture decision and I know it’s not an easy one when a child is involved but if I had children I’d be having them vaccinated.


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## road2ruin (Mar 24, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			She’ll grow old one day and then it’s a greater risk to her. Plus she could be a carrier and thus a risk to you and her grandparents. There is also the possibility of future variants that are much more dangerous to children (and everyone else) that these vaccinations can help to prevent.

It’s a bigger picture decision and I know it’s not an easy one when a child is involved but if I had children I’d be having them vaccinated.
		
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When she’s older and into the more at risk categories she’ll have it. Grandparents and parents will have had the vaccine so, in theory, covered. If a future variant that is more dangerous to children then that’s different but I’m undecided at present.


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## Kellfire (Mar 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			When she’s older and into the more at risk categories she’ll have it. Grandparents and parents will have had the vaccine so, in theory, covered. If a future variant that is more dangerous to children then that’s different but I’m undecided at present.
		
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The vaccinations may not cover for all variants, just like the flu jab covers for only those expected to be most prevalent each year. The more people that receive the vaccination, the less change of variants proliferating. But I know what you’re saying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2021)

On children being vaccinated...whilst for children the level of risk of developing covid-19 might currently be assessed as being low, we don't know any 'dormancy' impacts that could develop over time, and the risk of onward transmission from children to adults may be low,  I am not understanding the risks the vaccine poses to the child - and so I am asking 'why not?'.  As the vaccines have not been tested on children there is that significant unknown - however I would have thought that our experience of vaccinating children in other contexts should tell us whether or not children are susceptible to side-effects not experienced by adults. 

Is that the simple answer to my 'why not?'.  After all, at some point in the past the decision was made to make the polio vaccine mandatory for children...yes - polio impacts children severely - so I guess the decision was made on a a risk/benefit consideration - and that is what is likely to happen with covid19 vaccines.  I guess I have answered my own question and it'll be down to the parent making their own risk/benefit decision for their children.  And so an elderly grandparent?  Maybe you'll have your children vaccinated so that the child can see the grandparent and you know the grandparent will safe from the child.


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## DRW (Mar 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’ve read in the papers this morning that the plan is to start vaccinations of children in August and I just admit I don’t know how I feel about this.

I’m not an anti-vaxxer, I’ve had everything that I’m supposed to have and my daughter (6yrs) has had likewise however I’m not convinced (at the moment) I would have her vaccinated against something that carries so little risk to her personally. Covid, fortunately, carries almost zero risk to children. I think I would want to see longer term data before having her given the jab.
		
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Its tricky, as there are two sides to balance out, the big public health picture(ie. you want to stop all transmission if possible) and then the individual risk attached with taking medinces/vaccines.

You always hope both are in the same direction and therefore the choice is easy and lets be honest with almost all vaccines past and future that would be true. With covid it perhaps isnt that easy at this stage, for the point you make above.

I came across this interesting twitter thread/provides lots of links/information to read (which actually came from another one in the thread, which is also very interesting read) a couple of days ago, but other views available:-

Infectious Disease Ethics on Twitter: "🧵On the view that children should be vaccinated against #covid19 This is complicated because it is unclear: - that individual benefits in children will outweigh even minor/rare harms - how much risk in older adults will be reduced by vaccinating kids 1/" / Twitter

(EDIT the thread doesnt seem to show all parts, when linked above, it has about 17 posts, might be better accessing via the main link Infectious Disease Ethics (@ID_ethics) / Twitter two threads were posted on the 22/3 and 23/3 )

One good bit of news is that the more vaccines applied and over a long period, along with the current trails in children undergoing, the more comfort you can draw. I wouldnt worry at this stage and look to review the situation and evidence in July. There is also evidence from Israel that the so called herd immunity is about 55% due to the pfizer vaccine as its stopping so much transmission as well, which will help with the big public health picture.

Very much a sit and wait game and let the events over the next few months build your confidence.


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## bobmac (Mar 24, 2021)

Could your child die from taking the vaccine?
Could your child die if he/she catches covid-19?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Could your child die from taking the vaccine?
Could your child die if he/she catches covid-19?
		
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1) Yes (though currently no evidence to suggest it is even a possibility never mind what probability - though see associated risk of 2) )
2) Yes (though current evidence is that probability is very low)


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## DRW (Mar 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Could your child die from taking the vaccine?
Could your child die if he/she catches covid-19?
		
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Me personally I would be trying to somehow(if you tick that way) need to consider much more, ie. how much harm you can come from catching the virus or from having the vaccine, verus the benefit if just looking at the individuals picture. Clearly any % or outlooks from the Vaccine part, you can only guess based on adult reactions (rightly or wronglyfully, personally I wouldnt), as they are only in trials.

BTW you will be surprised by the % chance of death from covid 19 in children, its super low %. Normally more children die of flu for example.

Time and evidence will be a friend to R2R. Even if that is with the next set of updated vaccines, which no doubt will be needed by autumn. Certainly not worth worrying about now, keep an eye on it and consider the evidence as it comes in.

I was in a similar situation 3-12 months over myself(early 50s), in the end for someone like me, the choice became clear, vaccine efficacy was to good to refuse (ie. high personally protection and lowish risk of side effects from the vaccine when compared to catching the virus which carries about a 1 in 9(edit should say 1 in 11 ie 9%) chance of being in hospital at my age..) and a win for public health/family/friends. Win win.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Could your child die from taking the vaccine?
Could your child die if he/she catches covid-19?
		
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No confirmation yet on child vaccination despite what papers may be saying but as someone who was injected with all sorts as a child to travel the world I never understand why people kick off after all the necessary tests and precautions.

Theres bad reactions to some medications for some whether it’s a pill, jab or medicine.


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## larmen (Mar 24, 2021)

There was talk about long term health effect of covid on children which should be considered as well.


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## larmen (Mar 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Theres bad reactions to some medications for some whether it’s a pill, jab or medicine.
		
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I have/had kidney problems a few years ago, not by popping pills, but one of the 1st question I got asked was about ibuprofen. Some people are popping it like candy without thinking about side effects and kidneys don’t seem to like it, but suddenly on a 2 times jab it’s all ‘be careful’.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2021)

I get the feeling that the mental health impacts of the virus and lockdowns are sometimes underplayed - or at least not taken as seriously as they should be...even looked at in terms of self-pity or weakness.

My wife has had a chat with a lad who's sister has developed serious OCD, and what verges on agoraphobia, over the last year - as a result of meticulous taking of precautions against picking up the virus and passing it on to her vulnerable mother.  Terrible for his sister and the knock-on impact that this is having on her family is very difficult.

It's not all about being miserable due to missing out...it can be much more serious.


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## SteveW86 (Mar 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Until it comes to golf ⛳ 😅

Apparently, all we need is access to YouTube according to this forum 🧐
		
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What about the "Ask the Experts" section on here?


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## drdel (Mar 24, 2021)

The trials for vaccinating kids haven't been completed and the August plan is speculation. 

There is a risk that over time mutations develop that survive because they are more infectious and may be more severe. Vaccinating kids could help suppress the transmission of such derivatives.


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2021)

You need a new flu jab every year.
You need a tetanus booster every few years
There are others that I have no idea about.

I would be surprised if covid is any different, but that is speaking as a lay-person.  But I get miffed when I hear the possibility of this requirement being given as a reason for not having it. 



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get the feeling that the mental health impacts of the virus and lockdowns are sometimes underplayed - or at least not taken as seriously as they should be...even looked at in terms of self-pity or weakness.
		
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I think it is only underplayed by folk who don't understand what is going on.  

I am also amused when the media have a go at "government" (of any hue across the UK) for backlogs in operations, court cases and rising unemployment.  What do they think would happen when you shut down for a year? They also moan about stronger measures when employed and the relaxation of them. 

I also seem to learn more about increasing issues on the continent from posts about course closures on here, than from the tv news!


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## AmandaJR (Mar 24, 2021)

Watched Kate Garraway:Finding Derek last night. Pretty damned sobering. When it takes hold Covid is very, very nasty and I'm not sure yet we understand how many will have lifetime conditions as a result of catching it. The scary element is it seems, in many cases without underlying health issues, to be a lottery as to whether you get very sick or not.


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## IanM (Mar 24, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Watched Kate Garraway:Finding Derek last night. Pretty damned sobering. When it takes hold Covid is very, very nasty and I'm not sure yet we understand how many will have lifetime conditions as a result of catching it. The scary element is it seems, in many cases without underlying health issues, to be a lottery as to whether you get very sick or not.
		
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I sent info about this to a bolshy ex colleague of mine on Facebook who thinks restrictions are all a con as the "*survival rate*" is so high


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2021)

IanM said:



			You need a new flu jab every year.
You need a tetanus booster every few years
There are others that I have no idea about.

I would be surprised if covid is any different, but that is speaking as a lay-person.  But I get miffed when I hear the possibility of this requirement being given as a reason for not having it.

*I think it is only underplayed by folk who don't understand what is going on. *

I am also amused when the media have a go at "government" (of any hue across the UK) for backlogs in operations, court cases and rising unemployment.  What do they think would happen when you shut down for a year? They also moan about stronger measures when employed and the relaxation of them.

I also seem to learn more about increasing issues on the continent from posts about course closures on here, than from the tv news!
		
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I agree - but that's my point.  Too many - I fear - do not really understand the scope, prevalence and seriousness of the mental health issues than many live with - and that those close to them have to cope with.  Wider understanding of mental health illness is certainly improving - but I am not sure that the understanding of the mental health illnesses developed by many due to and through the lockdown is fully appreciated - certainly in respect of illness in the adult population.  I think there is a good understanding that children and teens could have significant issues that will manifest over the coming months and years,  not so sure there is the same understanding for adults.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2021)

Not going to be able to shop in John Lewis Sheffield - terrible blow for Sheffield City Centre.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Watched Kate Garraway:Finding Derek last night. Pretty damned sobering. When it takes hold Covid is very, very nasty and I'm not sure yet we understand how many will have lifetime conditions as a result of catching it. The scary element is it seems, in many cases without underlying health issues, to be a lottery as to whether you get very sick or not.
		
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The vice chair of our RBL branch is in intensive care with Covid. He has been there a month. His wife asked on FB yesterday for people to watch this programme. She mentioned that folk might get an understanding of what its like being a family member having to go through this feeling helpless. Also it might make folk think before they ask “ is he getting better” X number of times a day. 
I watched the show and it was heartbreaking, there was just so many questions I was asking Missis Tash when it had done.


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## GB72 (Mar 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to be able to shop in John Lewis Sheffield - terrible blow for Sheffield City Centre.
		
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Pretty much the nail in the coffin for Queensgate in Peterborough as well, that whole shopping center was built around John Lewis. Sadly 2 many years of people taking the advice from the staff in John Lewis then buying the item cheap online.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Pretty much the nail in the coffin for Queensgate in Peterborough as well, that whole shopping center was built around John Lewis. Sadly 2 many years of people taking the advice from the staff in John Lewis then buying the item cheap online.
		
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Lob into pot, to sit with the impact of coronavirus, such as councils not being able to afford to make parking free or very inexpensive; councils having to levy ever increasing business rates; little being done to rein in the avarice of the major on-line channels/portals/retailers and the clarion call of the market economy and market forces - and you get the recipe for grim doughnut cities for which only government policy and funding has any chance of addressing - further comment down that line I cannot make.

This news, on top of the damage done by the lockdowns to the small retailers in such as Sheffield and Peterborough, is just disastrous for the cities - and cities are the people and so when a city suffers terribly then so, eventually, will also the people.  The thought of Sheffield City Centre without John Lewis was awful to contemplate - and yet it has come to pass. Very, very sad and worrying.


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## Hobbit (Mar 24, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			The scary element is it seems, in many cases without underlying health issues, to be a lottery as to whether you get very sick or not.
		
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Not sure if I posted up before. My cousin was taken into A&E, following a fall, on a Monday evening. As part of the standard protocol she was tested for Covid. She died 2 days later on the Wednesday evening. Her underlying health conditions were two relatively new hips and being obese.

The son of one of our friends, very fit 21 year old lad, was diagnosed with it last April. He has/had long Covid symptoms afterwards. And he was diagnosed with it again in January.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure if I posted up before. My cousin was taken into A&E, following a fall, on a Monday evening. As part of the standard protocol she was tested for Covid. She died 2 days later on the Wednesday evening. Her underlying health conditions were two relatively new hips and being obese.

The son of one of our friends, very fit 21 year old lad, was diagnosed with it last April. He has/had long Covid symptoms afterwards. And he was diagnosed with it again in January.
		
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It really is playing with Russian Roulette. Even following all the guidelines we caught it and so relieved to have come through (I hope!) unscathed.


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## road2ruin (Mar 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Lob into pot, to sit with the impact of coronavirus, such as councils not being able to afford to make parking free or very inexpensive; councils having to levy ever increasing business rates; little being done to rein in the avarice of the major on-line channels/portals/retailers and the clarion call of the market economy and market forces - and you get the recipe for grim doughnut cities for which only government policy and funding has any chance of addressing - further comment down that line I cannot make.
		
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They were just talking about JL on the radio and interestingly their sales in the stores hadn't actually fallen, it's was the rent and rates that has meant the cost of keeping the stores open is not feasible. By 2025 they expect 70% of their sales to be via JohnLewis.com


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They were just talking about JL on the radio and interestingly their sales in the stores hadn't actually fallen, it's was the rent and rates that has meant the cost of keeping the stores open is not feasible. By 2025 they expect 70% of their sales to be via JohnLewis.com
		
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I should think Waitrose has done very well during the last year.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Not sure if I posted up before. My cousin was taken into A&E, following a fall, on a Monday evening. As part of the standard protocol she was tested for Covid. She died 2 days later on the Wednesday evening. Her underlying health conditions were two relatively new hips and being obese.

The son of one of our friends, very fit 21 year old lad, was diagnosed with it last April. He has/had long Covid symptoms afterwards. And he was diagnosed with it again in January.
		
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Jeez Brian, you've had more than your share of family health issues recently.  Take care mate.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to be able to shop in John Lewis Sheffield - terrible blow for Sheffield City Centre.
		
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That is definitely an unnecessary journey, thought you lived down south.


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Lob into pot, to sit with the impact of coronavirus, such as councils not being able to afford to make parking free or very inexpensive; councils having to levy ever increasing business rates; little being done to rein in the avarice of the major on-line channels/portals/retailers and the clarion call of the market economy and market forces - and you get the recipe for grim doughnut cities for which only government policy and funding has any chance of addressing - further comment down that line I cannot make.

This news, on top of the damage done by the lockdowns to the small retailers in such as Sheffield and Peterborough, is just disastrous for the cities - and cities are the people and so when a city suffers terribly then so, eventually, will also the people.  The thought of Sheffield City Centre without John Lewis was awful to contemplate - and yet it has come to pass. Very, very sad and worrying.
		
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The problem is right here on this forum along with the other millions of people who prefer to shop on line go to out of town centres. Making free parking in town centres isn’t going to stop what has slowly been happening over the years but it might help small local businesses.


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## GuyInLyon (Mar 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			...I was not implying your doctor doesn't know what he is doing.
		
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That is exactly what you were doing, and that's sad.


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2021)

Phone call at 5.30 that they were doing 2nd Pfizer jabs in Folkestone and no appointments were necessary, Mrs D and I are back at 7.30 all suitably vaccinated  - great lot the NHS, all smiles and happy although they clearly graft hard all day 👍👍👍


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## Old Skier (Mar 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Phone call at 5.30 that they were doing 2nd Pfizer jabs in Folkestone and no appointments were necessary, Mrs D and I are back at 7.30 all suitably vaccinated  - great lot the NHS, all smiles and happy although they clearly graft hard all day 👍👍👍
		
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Trouble is, you had AZ


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## SaintHacker (Mar 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Phone call at 5.30 that they were doing 2nd Pfizer jabs in Folkestone and no appointments were necessary, Mrs D and I are back at 7.30 all suitably vaccinated  - great lot the NHS, all smiles and happy although they clearly graft hard all day 👍👍👍
		
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Nice one. Let us know what the queues are like at the airport!😉😂


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## IainP (Mar 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Phone call at 5.30 that they were doing 2nd Pfizer jabs in Folkestone and no appointments were necessary, Mrs D and I are back at 7.30 all suitably vaccinated  - great lot the NHS, all smiles and happy although they clearly graft hard all day 👍👍👍
		
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👍 how many weeks was it between them?


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Nice one. Let us know what the queues are like at the airport!😉😂
		
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We're going there on your bus Paul 😁


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Trouble is, you had AZ 

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Can't get everything right !


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2021)

IainP said:



			👍 how many weeks was it between them?
		
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9 I think


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## Imurg (Mar 24, 2021)

The Mrs gets her 2nd Pfizer on Saturday...got another 2 months to my 2nd.


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## larmen (Mar 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Phone call at 5.30 that they were doing 2nd Pfizer jabs in Folkestone and no appointments were necessary, Mrs D and I are back at 7.30 all suitably vaccinated  - great lot the NHS, all smiles and happy although they clearly graft hard all day 👍👍👍
		
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When did you get your 1st jab?

just seen the answer above. 
I am 7 1/2 past 1st jab, at your pace I get one in a couple of weeks.


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## chrisd (Mar 24, 2021)

larmen said:



			When did you get your 1st jab?

just seen the answer above.
I am 7 1/2 past 1st jab, at your pace I get one in a couple of weeks.
		
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In Folkestone but at a different site. It would seem they had more Pfizer than customers and were happy to do all comers who'd had their first jab (I think) before February


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## upsidedown (Mar 24, 2021)

Hid surpassed herself today, 120 2nd doses of the Phizer duly injected 😁


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## SocketRocket (Mar 24, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Hid surpassed herself today, 120 2nd doses of the Phizer duly injected 😁
		
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Bet her arm aches.


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## Slime (Mar 24, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Hid surpassed herself today, 120 2nd doses of the Phizer duly injected 😁
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Bet her arm aches.
		
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Oh, I assumed she was injecting in other peoples' arms, not her own.


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## GaryK (Mar 24, 2021)

Seeing as I reach the big 50 this week, I checked online and was able to book my 1st jab for Sunday just gone.
The setup (Bucks Uni building) was excellent - plenty of staff to advise and direct you - in and out in the space of 10 minutes.
What really surprised me was that I was the only "patient" there at the time - I was expecting it to be very busy.


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2021)

A covid-19 pill?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/me...to-treat-covid-19/ar-BB1eT5d3?ocid=spartandhp


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## upsidedown (Mar 25, 2021)

Slime said:



			Oh, I assumed she was injecting in other peoples' arms, not her own. 

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She was, just 3 more  shifts for her then unit is being closed .


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## larmen (Mar 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			A covid-19 pill?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/me...to-treat-covid-19/ar-BB1eT5d3?ocid=spartandhp

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A Pfizer pill? What will it really do and what colour is it? ;-)

A pill if effective would be the best thing. Nobody goes to a vaccination centre or a GP for a para Tamil, do they? And they are much easier produced and distributed compared to vials. And usually more stable as well.


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## Kellfire (Mar 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			A Pfizer pill? What will it really do and what colour is it? ;-)

A pill if effective would be the best thing. Nobody goes to a vaccination centre or a GP for a para Tamil, do they? And they are much easier produced and distributed compared to vials. And usually more stable as well.
		
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The pill is a treatment for those who have Covid-19, not a vaccination.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 25, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The pill is a treatment for those who have Covid-19, not a vaccination.
		
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This ^^^

Which means it would reduced the consequences, but not the transmission of the virus. ie people might not get seriously ill, but they'd still catch it & pass it on. Meaning the virus stays in circulation. Which presumably isnt good.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 25, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			This ^^^

Which means it would reduced the consequences, but not the transmission of the virus. ie people might not get seriously ill, but they'd still catch it & pass it on. Meaning the virus stays in circulation. Which presumably isnt good.
		
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Yes, but of course, what is good is to have both available within the population.
Vaccination and treatment. 
Seems it will need very good publicity to make clear it is *not* an alternative to vaccination.
As will the need to emphasise the difference between it being a treatment and not necessarily a cure.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2021)

A couple of possibly silly questions...

If a person has long Covid are they infectious?

If, after 29th you can meet up to 6 people from another household, outside does that mean a group of 7 is OK?


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## GB72 (Mar 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			A couple of possibly silly questions...

If a person has long Covid are they infectious?

If, after 29th you can meet up to 6 people from another household, outside does that mean a group of 7 is OK?
		
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No idea on the first point but the second one is that you can meet in a group of 6 total with as many households as you like or you can meet as 2 households (allowing a household of 4 to meet with another household of 4).


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## Beedee (Mar 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			A couple of possibly silly questions...

If a person has long Covid are they infectious?

If, after 29th you can meet up to 6 people from another household, outside does that mean a group of 7 is OK?
		
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No

and "gatherings of 6" not "meet 6".  So again, no.

<Edit>forgot about the 2 households, so, it depends</Edit>


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## larmen (Mar 25, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			The pill is a treatment for those who have Covid-19, not a vaccination.
		
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I get that, but even the vaccine is ‘just’ stopping me becoming serious ill and symptomatic. But if we can treat people that reduces massive stress from elsewhere on the NHS.

I don’t want to lose the respect for covid, but the fear,


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			A couple of possibly silly questions...

If a person has long Covid are they infectious?

If, after 29th you can meet up to 6 people from another household, outside does that mean a group of 7 is OK?
		
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No idea on long covid 

But rule of six is rule of 6 or 2 households now

So 7 8 9 etc fine providing it's 2 households


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They were just talking about JL on the radio and interestingly their sales in the stores hadn't actually fallen, it's was the rent and rates that has meant the cost of keeping the stores open is not feasible. By 2025 they expect 70% of their sales to be via JohnLewis.com
		
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I doubt it. The JL experience is all about going into a store and being suckered into a purchase. God the stuff does look quality. Online they will have to price match and it's just NOT the same as seeing to quality of their products.


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## road2ruin (Mar 25, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I doubt it. The JL experience is all about going into a store and being suckered into a purchase. God the stuff does look quality. Online they will have to price match and it's just NOT the same as seeing to quality of their products.
		
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Given their store closures the JL experience doesn't seem to be all that, even they aren't immune to the issues with thousands of high streets across the country. They themselves have suggested that they will be 70% online so not sure why you find that so hard to believe.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2021)

Scots NHS staff offered 4% pay rise  well deserved.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2021)

Golf booked for Wednesday, probably playing Monday and Tuesday too....
So why do I feel worse today than I have for the last 3 months....


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## Crazyface (Mar 25, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots NHS staff offered 4% pay rise  well deserved.
		
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oooo, I've got a question on this. Excuse my ignorance, but how can the NHS workers in Scotland get a pay rise from the Scottish government. I thought the NHS was British and all one? This really is just not on.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 25, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			oooo, I've got a question on this. Excuse my ignorance, but how can the NHS workers in Scotland get a pay rise from the Scottish government. I thought the NHS was British and all one? This really is just not on.
		
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Simples. Devolution.  Its no longer a UK-wide central service. NHS Scotland is paid for by the Scottish  government. Although the staff deserve it, the interesting question is how the heck are they going to afford it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Simples. Devolution.  Its no longer a UK-wide central service. NHS Scotland is paid for by the Scottish  government. Although the staff deserve it, the interesting question is how the heck are they going to afford it.
		
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Iron bru sales are at an all time high


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Simples. Devolution.  Its no longer a UK-wide central service. NHS Scotland is paid for by the Scottish  government. Although the staff deserve it, the interesting question is how the heck are they going to afford it.
		
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Well - without going political - it 'only' has to be funded for 150,000.  Plus - and probably more importantly - the Scottish government has clearly decided that it is going to handle discontent from others working in the public sector and their clamour for the same - that discontent and clamour that the Westminster government is unwilling to take on.  There are other more political reasons that can be cited - but these are out of bounds.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Simples. Devolution.  Its no longer a UK-wide central service. NHS Scotland is paid for by the Scottish  government. Although the staff deserve it, the interesting question is how the heck are they going to afford it.
		
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They do "only" have 170k employees or thereabouts...
Add a million to that number and you can see why its harder to give that sort of rise to the rest of the NHS - not that they don't deserve it, it's just a very big number.


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## backwoodsman (Mar 25, 2021)

Not saying the staff shouldn't get it and not saying that the Scottish government cant find it. Just that 4% on anyone's budget is a fair hike and wont be easy to find, and probably means another budget takes a hit. More power to their elbow if they can find it.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 25, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots NHS staff offered 4% pay rise  well deserved.
		
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Well deserved but stunningly convenient timing for all concerned


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Not saying the staff shouldn't get it and not saying that the Scottish government cant find it. Just that 4% on anyone's budget is a fair hike and wont be easy to find, and probably means another budget takes a hit. More power to their elbow if they can find it.
		
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Cost will be added to the deficit.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			Cost will be added to the deficit.
		
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Do you know that for definite or is it one of your sly political points?


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## GB72 (Mar 25, 2021)

Jab done, just doing 15 minute wait after. Did not even feel the needle. Such a pleasant experience, could almost describe the atmosphere in the small queue as party like.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Do you know that for definite or is it one of your sly political points?
		
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Stop trying to make an issue: it was not a political point, neither was it sly.

Scotland has run and they are forecasting a deficit which is a fact. This award was not in their forecast so is bound to increase debt. QED


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			Stop trying to make an issue: it was not a political point, neither was it sly.

Scotland has run and they are forecasting a deficit which is a fact. This award was not in their forecast so is bound to increase debt. QED
		
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Or they may have taken it from another budget. I have no idea and neither do you. QED


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Or they may have taken it from another budget. I have no idea and neither do you. QED
		
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Now you're being obtuse. There is only one budget that was published on 28th January 2021.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			Now you're being obtuse. There is only one budget that was published on 28th January 2021.
		
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You know what I meant, they may have apportioned it from that budget in a different way than was originally set out.


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## happyhacker (Mar 25, 2021)

It is a great pay reward for NHS, but it will only lead to other issues. What about Police, Firemen, teachers and countless other public key workers. I can see strike ballots in their future.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2021)

Well sadly that's us just off the third funeral we've had in the last 6 weeks.  Blessing is that by the grace of technology we've been able to be present in a disconnected, but at least spiritually connected, way.  Sad times for us and many and my thoughts go out to all who have not been able to be with their loved ones at the end and in their parting from us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2021)

happyhacker said:



			It is a great pay reward for NHS, but it will only lead to other issues. What about Police, Firemen, teachers and countless other public key workers. I can see strike ballots in their future.
		
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Depends...upon whether of not others can accept that it is the nurses who - in these exceptional times - have been the ones who have made the greatest personal sacrifices - often above and beyond their reasonable call of duty - and that that sacrifice made is worthy of recognition.   

But it is clearly a calculation that the Scottish Government have made - one that suggests that they are not afraid of the challenge from other public sector bodies that will most likely come about - and that there is sufficient support across the country for the award to mitigate the risks associated with 'whataboutme' claims.


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## chrisd (Mar 25, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Jab done, just doing 15 minute wait after. Did not even feel the needle. Such a pleasant experience, could almost describe the atmosphere in the small queue as party like.
		
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I had my second jab yesterday evening, same as you not a scratch when the needle went in - flippin sore today!


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## RichA (Mar 25, 2021)

happyhacker said:



			It is a great pay reward for NHS, but it will only lead to other issues. What about Police, Firemen, teachers and countless other public key workers. I can see strike ballots in their future.
		
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Starting salaries for qualified teachers, nurses and police officers are similar. With experience, but without promotion, the nurse's max salary is several thousand a year less. They're generally considered similar public service roles and there really ought to be parity for the nurses.


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## Billysboots (Mar 25, 2021)

happyhacker said:



			It is a great pay reward for NHS, but it will only lead to other issues. What about Police, Firemen, teachers and countless other public key workers. I can see strike ballots in their future.
		
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Alas, the police cannot strike. In terms of industrial muscle they have all the clout of a 10 year old black Labrador, lying in front of a roaring log fire with its tongue lolling out, rolling onto its back to have its tummy tickled. So no clout at all.

I do not disagree that the NHS deserves some sort of reward, but the country simply cannot afford an inflation busting pensionable pay rise. We’re skint.

A one off bonus payment perhaps? Although even that has to be limited.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scots NHS staff offered 4% pay rise  well deserved.
		
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But no mention of what will be cut to pay for it.


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## Old Skier (Mar 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - without going political - it 'only' has to be funded for 150,000.  Plus - and probably more importantly - the Scottish government has clearly decided that it is going to handle discontent from others working in the public sector and their clamour for the same - that discontent and clamour that the Westminster government is unwilling to take on.  There are other more political reasons that can be cited - but these are out of bounds.
		
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But it still has to be paid for and as there will only be X amount of money available to the devolved powers Y will have to dip out.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 25, 2021)

happyhacker said:



			It is a great pay reward for NHS, but it will only lead to other issues. What about Police, Firemen, teachers and countless other public key workers. I can see strike ballots in their future.
		
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If you think that Police , firemen etc, have worked *as *hard or in as much danger as Drs and nurses *in this pandemic , *then you haven't been playing attention.😀
The other key workers have worked hard etc, but this pandemic has really made " above and beyond " demands of Drs and nurses, particularly the latter.


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## Billysboots (Mar 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If you think that Police , firemen etc, have worked *as *hard or in as much danger as Drs and nurses *in this pandemic , *then you haven't been playing attention.😀
The other key workers have worked hard etc, but this pandemic has really made " above and beyond " demands of Drs and nurses, particularly the latter.
		
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Agreed. I have worked throughout the pandemic and would have been truly embarrassed had police representatives sought a massive pay rise. In part because the money isn’t there, but what is available is deserved far more elsewhere.


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## larmen (Mar 25, 2021)

I don’t get why it has to be a percentage across the board. £500 for a nurse or a porter is likely to make more difference to them than a couple of grand does to a senior manager or consultant. Just look what 4% means at the bottom, and take that number across the range as a flat increase. Eg 500 for a nurse and 500 for the top nhs person and everyone in between. Saves a lot of money on the ‘richer’ folks.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well sadly that's us just off the third funeral we've had in the last 6 weeks.  Blessing is that by the grace of technology we've been able to be present in a disconnected, but at least spiritually connected, way.  Sad times for us and many and my thoughts go out to all who have not been able to be with their loved ones at the end and in their parting from us.
		
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I had to be fairly ruthless in limiting the numbers of my mum's funeral to eleven.
We were very lucky to have a brilliant celibate who 'got' my mum and our family and turned it into a lovely occasion.
For an Edinburgher she even managed to pronounce my Mum's Welsh hometown correctly. [after a bit of coaching from me.]
Sometimes less is more.


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## funkycoldmedina (Mar 25, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I had to be fairly ruthless in limiting the numbers of my mum's funeral to eleven.
We were very lucky to have a brilliant celibate who 'got' my mum and our family and turned it into a lovely occasion.
For an Edinburgher she even managed to pronounce my Mum's Welsh hometown correctly. [after a bit of coaching from me.]
Sometimes less is more.

Click to expand...

Plenty of celibate's on here that could have stepped in 🤣🤣🤣


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## road2ruin (Mar 25, 2021)

Today's figures show 6,397 new infections and 63 deaths, this is an increase of 94 in terms of infections but deaths have fallen by 32 since last Thursday. 

The one bit of good news that doesn't seem to have got enough press is that it's now 14 school days (closing in on 3 weeks in total) since almost all went back and there doesn't seem to have been any discernable rise in cases etc etc during that period. The Unions were pressing to delay the start due to health and safety concerns and numerous people were interviewed saying what a bad idea it was to send everyone back in together as this alone would leave to a huge spike however that has proved to be wrong. Hopefully this will enable us to press on with the roadmap as schools going back was likely to be the largest cause of an increase in cases but that doesn't appear to be the case so another bit of good news in my eyes.


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## GB72 (Mar 25, 2021)

I suppose the next hurdle is when those kids at school and their families start meeting with other families outside of the school network. I will be meeting with a family with kids next week and that will be my biggest risk for months and will still be 2 weeks before my jab fully kicks in


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## road2ruin (Mar 25, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I suppose the next hurdle is when those kids at school and their families start meeting with other families outside of the school network. I will be meeting with a family with kids next week and that will be my biggest risk for months and will still be 2 weeks before my jab fully kicks in
		
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I honestly don't think that's going to make a huge difference, the big one was bringing back all the kids at the same time and that appears to have passed without incident. Meeting other families is in an outdoor setting as of next week so can't see that doing a huge amount to infections etc.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2021)

Saw earlier that a Public Health England report shows Covid rates are highest  in those aged 10 to 19 and lowest in those aged 70 to 79...


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 25, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			Plenty of celibate's on here that could have stepped in 🤣🤣🤣
		
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OOps  should have read celebrant.


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## road2ruin (Mar 25, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Saw earlier that a Public Health England report shows Covid rates are highest  in those aged 10 to 19 and lowest in those aged 70 to 79...
		
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Makes sense I guess case are likely to be highest amongst those who haven't been vaccinated and aren't really social distancing. At least it's not leading to hospitalisations etc.


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## Billysboots (Mar 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Today's figures show 6,397 new infections and 63 deaths, this is an increase of 94 in terms of infections but deaths have fallen by 32 since last Thursday.

The one bit of good news that doesn't seem to have got enough press is that it's now 14 school days (closing in on 3 weeks in total) since almost all went back and there doesn't seem to have been any discernable rise in cases etc etc during that period. The Unions were pressing to delay the start due to health and safety concerns and numerous people were interviewed saying what a bad idea it was to send everyone back in together as this alone would leave to a huge spike however that has proved to be wrong. Hopefully this will enable us to press on with the roadmap as schools going back was likely to be the largest cause of an increase in cases but that doesn't appear to be the case so another bit of good news in my eyes.
		
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Alas, the highest case rates are now in those aged 10-19, which suggests the return to school is having an impact.


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## road2ruin (Mar 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Alas, the highest case rates are now in those aged 10-19, which suggests the return to school is having an impact.
		
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But that was always going to be the case, they're not social distancing and they haven't been vaccinated. My point is that it hasn't spread around the community and there hasn't been an increase in hospitalisations.


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## Billysboots (Mar 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But that was always going to be the case, they're not social distancing and they haven't been vaccinated. My point is that it hasn't spread around the community and there hasn't been an increase in hospitalisations.
		
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Agreed, absolutely. The concern, I suppose, is that there is a knock on in transmission to parents.

The falling hospital figures and reduced numbers on ventilators are both hugely encouraging.


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## drdel (Mar 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Alas, the highest case rates are now in those aged 10-19, which suggests the return to school is having an impact.
		
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It was always expected and is the reason for the 5 week cycle for easing restrictions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Today's figures show 6,397 new infections and 63 deaths, this is an increase of 94 in terms of infections but deaths have fallen by 32 since last Thursday.

The one bit of good news that doesn't seem to have got enough press is that it's now 14 school days (closing in on 3 weeks in total) since almost all went back and there doesn't seem to have been any discernable rise in cases etc etc during that period. The Unions were pressing to delay the start due to health and safety concerns and numerous people were interviewed saying what a bad idea it was to send everyone back in together as this alone would leave to a huge spike however that has proved to be wrong. Hopefully this will enable us to press on with the roadmap as schools going back was likely to be the largest cause of an increase in cases but that doesn't appear to be the case so another bit of good news in my eyes.
		
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Though I suppose one thing that you might conclude from the figures of daily new infections, is that the underlying downward trend that we were seeing and that we'd be expecting as a result of the lockdown had schools not returned has been balanced off by infections resulting from the schools returning - meaning that the numbers have remained about constant and now slightly increasing.


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## road2ruin (Mar 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			The concern, I suppose, is that there is a knock on in transmission to parents.
		
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But that was the point of my initial point, we're almost at the end of the third week of schools being back and so far that doesn't seem to be happening. I was prepared for more cases etc once the schools all went back at once.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed, absolutely. The concern, I suppose, is that there is a knock on in transmission to parents.
		
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Or to driving instructors when we go back to work in a couple of weeks...


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 25, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Or to driving instructors when we go back to work in a couple of weeks...

Click to expand...

At least it’s warmer now with your windows down! 😅


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## road2ruin (Mar 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though I suppose one thing that you might conclude from the figures of daily new infections, is that the underlying downward trend that we were seeing and that we'd be expecting as a result of the lockdown had schools not returned has been balanced off by infections resulting from the schools returning - meaning that the numbers have remained about constant and now slightly increasing.
		
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Quite possibly however I think we'd have all taken a 'slight increase' given the gloom and doom about schools all going back at the same time and how it was likely to lead to an explosion of cases. I expected more of a rise if I'm honest and I was very much pro the schools going back but was realistic about what that might bring. I think the fact that the numbers are all still going in the right direction is a huge positive given that schools going back was probably one of the biggest hurdles to overcome. This makes me feel more positive that the rest of the roadmap might well go to plan.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			At least it’s warmer now with your windows down! 😅
		
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Bloody right..
Can't imagine what it would been like a few weeks back with -1million °C...


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## SaintHacker (Mar 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But that was the point of my initial point, we're almost at the end of the third week of schools being back and so far that doesn't seem to be happening. I was prepared for more cases etc once the schools all went back at once.
		
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I expect the home testing has helped out a fair bit. Personally I'm loving making myself nearly hurl twice a week!🤢😂


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Alas, the police cannot strike. *In terms of industrial muscle they have all the clout of a 10 year old black Labrador, lying in front of a roaring log fire with its tongue lolling out, rolling onto its back to have its tummy tickled.* So no clout at all.

I do not disagree that the NHS deserves some sort of reward, but the country simply cannot afford an inflation busting pensionable pay rise. We’re skint.

A one off bonus payment perhaps? Although even that has to be limited.
		
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I think you've seriously overestimated the level of our former employer's industrial muscle.  

Wouldn't agree with the "alas" over the lack of the right to strike (if I've interpreted it right?  ).  I don't think any of the three emergency services or the NHS should have the right to strike.  however in return they should have the right to be properly treated & not shafted by the Government.


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## Billysboots (Mar 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think you've seriously overestimated the level of our former employer's industrial muscle.  

Wouldn't agree with the "alas" over the lack of the right to strike (if I've interpreted it right?  ).  *I don't think any of the three emergency services or the NHS should have the right to strike.  however in return they should have the right to be properly treated & not shafted by the Government.*

Click to expand...

Totally agree. With both sides of the argument. 😎


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Alas, the highest case rates are now in those aged 10-19, which suggests the return to school is having an impact.
		
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almost inveitable but also influenced by the level of testing they are subject to


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## BiMGuy (Mar 25, 2021)

My daughter has been back at school a week and a bit. She's been at home with a cold for the last 2 days. Which she's caught despite having to wear a mask at all times whilst inside at school.


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## RichA (Mar 25, 2021)

Mrs A is a teacher and just under 50. Fingers crossed she'll be near the top of the list for the next round of jabs.
Reasonably large number of militant parents refusing to make their kids wear masks or take the twice weekly tests.
Idiots, in my opinion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2021)

Discovered earlier today that someone I know with an alcohol problem died of a related condition a couple of days ago.  She had really struggled over the last few years and her husband left her shortly before the 1st lockdown because of it - she just couldn't cope with the loneliness of lockdown and in it could not control her illness - and it has taken her...so sad.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 25, 2021)

RichA said:



			Mrs A is a teacher and just under 50. Fingers crossed she'll be near the top of the list for the next round of jabs.
Reasonably large number of militant parents refusing to make their kids wear masks or take the twice weekly tests.
Idiots, in my opinion.
		
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I'm not convinced of the effectiveness of the face coverings most people wear. I've yet to see a study or evidence that shows that are as effective as they are made out to be. 
Personally I can't see any point in kids wearing masks when sat in a classroom all day. The single use masks will be absolutely disgusting after a couple of hours and completely useless thereafter. Neve mind what they will be like after a full day or week. 

My daughter has the choice to wear one or not. If she chose not to we would support her decision.


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## DanFST (Mar 25, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I'm not convinced of the effectiveness of the face coverings most people wear. I've yet to see a study or evidence that shows that are as effective as they are made out to be.
Personally I can't see any point in kids wearing masks when sat in a classroom all day. The single use masks will be absolutely disgusting after a couple of hours and completely useless thereafter. Neve mind what they will be like after a full day or week.

My daughter has the choice to wear one or not. If she chose not to we would support her decision.
		
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I think that's something that needs to change. Would you let her wear the same pair of underwear for a week? 

The amount of people that only have one mask is alarming. We need to start thinking of them as items of clothing, they'll be here for a while.


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## GB72 (Mar 26, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I think that's something that needs to change. Would you let her wear the same pair of underwear for a week?

The amount of people that only have one mask is alarming. We need to start thinking of them as items of clothing, they'll be here for a while.
		
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I have 4 masks in my desk at work alone plus more in the car, at home, in various bags etc.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 26, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I'm not convinced of the effectiveness of the face coverings most people wear. I've yet to see a study or evidence that shows that are as effective as they are made out to be.
Personally I can't see any point in kids wearing masks when sat in a classroom all day. The single use masks will be absolutely disgusting after a couple of hours and completely useless thereafter. Neve mind what they will be like after a full day or week.

My daughter has the choice to wear one or not. If she chose not to we would support her decision.
		
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I’m sure they’re very effective in laboratory settings but with the public no. 
I don’t know anyone who wants to wear them, most purely wearing them because they have to. They’re kept in pockets, thrown on tables and worn multiple times and rarely changed. 

If anything I think they’ve increased infections alongside some bank balances.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2021)

Surely the objective of a mask is to prevent your breath particles being projected. I can't see why a mask that has been unwashed for a month would prevent this from happening.


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## DanFST (Mar 26, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’m sure they’re very effective in laboratory settings but with the public no.
I don’t know anyone who wants to wear them, most purely wearing them because they have to. They’re kept in pockets, thrown on tables and worn multiple times and rarely changed.
		
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As do I, and they get washed and rotated.

But a large amount of people don't wash their hands after taking a piss at a pub, let alone wash their masks.


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## RichA (Mar 26, 2021)

People I know are wearing them because they don't want to risk passing on a virus that kills a more vulnerable person. If a third of us might be asymptomatic spreaders, it's on a par with covering your mouth when you cough and sneeze and avoiding breathing on people, when you have a cold. 
The advice about washing and changing the cotton masks has been out since the start and they cost peanuts in the supermarket.

On a separate note, I've heard that some people cheat at golf, so I've decided that I'm not going to bother with the rules and etiquette any more. I don't like them and sometimes they're slightly inconvenient.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2021)

Beginning to fully appreciate that going to the cinema and having a meal out feels like nirvana compared with the old sell of home cinema and a home-delivered pizza.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 26, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I think that's something that needs to change. Would you let her wear the same pair of underwear for a week?

The amount of people that only have one mask is alarming. We need to start thinking of them as items of clothing, they'll be here for a while.
		
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She gets a new one every day (the environmental impact of disposable masks must be horrific). I suspect she is in a significant minority of kids that do. Even so, they cannot be effective at the end of the day. 

Having worked in conditions that require people to have mask fittings and then that fitting be tested. Where training is given on the safe removal and disposal of masks, and the masks are only used once. I simply cannot believe that a disposable mask, home made mask, snood or scarf provide anything like the level of protection people have been told they provide. They are nothing more than a comfort blanket. 
Just look at how many times people touch masks to adjust them? 

I'm happy to be proved wrong if anyone can provide evidence to the contrary.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Beginning to fully appreciate that going to the cinema and having a meal out feels like nirvana compared with the old sell of home cinema and a home-delivered pizza.
		
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Each to their own, eh?
Cinema is a no for me. 
Last time I went, quite a while ago, ridiculous  noise levels, ( heavily "coloured") ,including from audience members, popcorn, chatting .
Caveat, however, is that it was a long time ago I went.Might have changed, but doubt it.
BTW, don't have food delivered either.😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			She gets a new one every day (the environmental impact of disposable masks must be horrific). I suspect she is in a significant minority of kids that do. Even so, they cannot be effective at the end of the day.

Having worked in conditions that require people to have mask fittings and then that fitting be tested. Where training is given on the safe removal and disposal of masks, and the masks are only used once. I simply cannot believe that a disposable mask, home made mask, snood or scarf provide anything like the level of protection people have been told they provide. They are nothing more than a comfort blanket.
Just look at how many times people touch masks to adjust them?

I'm happy to be proved wrong if anyone can provide evidence to the contrary.
		
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Surely they are not so much to prevent stuff going in, more to lessen the impact of your expelled breath .
They are for other peoples protection more than your own. So....if everyone wears them we help each other.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			She gets a new one every day (the environmental impact of disposable masks must be horrific). I suspect she is in a significant minority of kids that do. Even so, they cannot be effective at the end of the day.

Having worked in conditions that require people to have mask fittings and then that fitting be tested. Where training is given on the safe removal and disposal of masks, and the masks are only used once. I simply cannot believe that a disposable mask, home made mask, snood or scarf provide anything like the level of protection people have been told they provide. They are nothing more than a comfort blanket.
Just look at how many times people touch masks to adjust them?

I'm happy to be proved wrong if anyone can provide evidence to the contrary.
		
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I think you are over thinking or estimating why people were asked/told to wear masks.

The Gov said:
Evidence shows a face covering *can help* in reducing the spread of droplets and therefore potentially infecting others, and *could help* to reduce the spread of infection as lockdown measures start to be lifted. It is important people refrain from touching their face covering when wearing it, where possible, to avoid hand to mask transmission of the virus.

No where have I seen any official spokesman claim to say what you require evidence for, the bold bits I’ve highlighted show you what has and is being said, ie, they are better than no barrier and can/could help reduce transmission infections etc.

They were never meant or claimed to be 100% guaranteed to protect anyone.


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## DRW (Mar 26, 2021)

I don't have anything against wearing masks, and tend to wear a proper N95/N99 based mask, so it provides an element of individual protection and anything else.

If you believe the virus is transmitted by aerosol, then basically a cloth or non sealed mask does not do alot. Virus particles are tiny and can pass straight tho or around the mask when you breath in and out(yeah some will be caught). Helps with a redirection  but thats not going to help if sat in an office or class for hours, as its aerosol.

I prefer real world data, rather than words or hamster lab tests to prove a point. In the real world, there is loads of data in the USA and other countries 'states'(all tied up with other protections and restrictions of course) and to be honest, you couldn't tell which states have mask mandates and which don't. On top of that you cant tell when the state introduced them and stopping using them. Its like a guess, 50:50. You go and have a look if it interests you, would love to say otherwise, as wouldnt it be lovely if masks did stop transmission.

Not checked out this guys graphs to actual data figures, to see if they are correct, as really not that bothered as neutral on the matter, but heres a thread from the last couple of days, the guy makes some great points in his thread :-

Steve Brown on Twitter: "Just your periodic reminder that masks don't work (maybe they should, but the data says otherwise)." / Twitter

Would love to see real world counter population based examples if you have any? The denmark study didnt really draw any conclusions.

Masks are a minor help at best IMHO in the real world. I would take not being inside or 9 foot between us, over hoping for protection from the kind of masks people wear.

People get far to carried away with the fact they can see something and think it must work, but real life sadly isnt like that. If it was that easy, this would have all been over with ages ago.

Im mask neutral, just like to ask questions and challenge by own outlooks. Bit like asking why I cant wear jeans to play golf


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## SaintHacker (Mar 26, 2021)

How many of you would be happy for a surgeon to open you up without wearing a mask?
What it comes down to is, it might help reduce transmission, it might not, but it sure as hell isn't going to make it worse. So just put up with the bit of minor inconvenience in the knowledge you might save someones life.


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## road2ruin (Mar 26, 2021)

I have about half a dozen masks spread around the house and car as I found myself forgetting during the early stages. Must admit they have only really been washed if I've left them in trouser pockets and forgotten to take them out or if I have dropped them and consciously made an effort to clean it.


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’m sure they’re very effective in laboratory settings but with the public no.
I don’t know anyone who wants to wear them, most purely wearing them because they have to. They’re kept in pockets, thrown on tables and worn multiple times and rarely changed.

If anything I think they’ve increased infections alongside some bank balances.
		
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I'm curious as to why you think there's a difference between a lab setting and in public? A person breaths in and out in a lab, just the same as in public... maybe I'm missing something.


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## DRW (Mar 26, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			How many of you would be happy for a surgeon to open you up without wearing a mask?
What it comes down to is, it might help reduce transmission, it might not, but it sure as hell isn't going to make it worse. So just put up with the bit of minor inconvenience in the knowledge you might save someones life.
		
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I wouldnt but the purpose in that setting is slightly different, so not really comparable

Disposable surgical face masks for preventing surgical wound infection in clean surgery | Cochrane


Do Face Masks Prevent the Spread of Viruses? (healthline.com) 




			Surgical face masks are fairly loose-fitting, disposable masks approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for use as medical devices. Doctors, dentists, and nurses often wear them while treating patients.

These masks prevent large droplets of bodily fluids that may contain viruses or other germs from escaping via the nose and mouth. They also protect against splashes and sprays from other people, such as those from sneezes and coughs.
		
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Not for aerosol reduction.

Anyway I will bow out of this discussion, as posted my neutral thoughts on the matter and certainly dont not looking to argue as im neutral on the matter .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2021)

DRW said:



			I don't have anything against wearing masks, and tend to wear a proper N95/N99 based mask, so it provides an element of individual protection and anything else.

If you believe the virus is transmitted by aerosol, then basically a cloth or non sealed mask does not do alot. Virus particles are tiny and can pass straight tho or around the mask when you breath in and out(yeah some will be caught). Helps with a redirection  but thats not going to help if sat in an office or class for hours, as its aerosol.

I prefer real world data, rather than words or hamster lab tests to prove a point. In the real world, there is loads of data in the USA and other countries 'states'(all tied up with other protections and restrictions of course) and to be honest, you couldn't tell which states have mask mandates and which don't. On top of that you cant tell when the state introduced them and stopping using them. Its like a guess, 50:50. You go and have a look if it interests you, would love to say otherwise, as wouldnt it be lovely if masks did stop transmission.

Not checked out this guys graphs to actual data figures, to see if they are correct, as really not that bothered as neutral on the matter, but heres a thread from the last couple of days, the guy makes some great points in his thread :-

Steve Brown on Twitter: "Just your periodic reminder that masks don't work (maybe they should, but the data says otherwise)." / Twitter

Would love to see real world counter population based examples if you have any? The denmark study didnt really draw any conclusions.

Masks are a minor help at best IMHO in the real world. I would take not being inside or 9 foot between us, over hoping for protection from the kind of masks people wear.

People get far to carried away with the fact they can see something and think it must work, but real life sadly isnt like that. If it was that easy, this would have all been over with ages ago.

Im mask neutral, just like to ask questions and challenge by own outlooks. Bit like asking why I cant wear jeans to play golf

Click to expand...

Which is maybe why we were not required to wear masks at the outset - the medics and scientists knew that it was MUCH more important that we kept 2m apart outside and didn’t meet up inside.  Adding masks into the mix at the outset would perhaps have diluted the importance of what was key to reducing transmission - and wearing a mask might have seemed to many that it was an equivalent mitigation to transmission when it never has been. It’s an added extra - a top-up mitigation that blocks droplets getting sprayed through coughing, sneezing etc.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 26, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Which is maybe why we were not required to wear masks at the outset - the medics and scientists knew that it was MUCH more important that we kept 2m apart outside and didn’t meet up inside. * Adding masks into the mix at the outset would perhaps have diluted the importance of what was key to reducing transmission - and wearing a mask might have seemed to many that it was an equivalent mitigation to transmission when it never has been. It’s an added extra - a top-up mitigation that blocks droplets getting sprayed through coughing, sneezing etc.
		
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Wasn't the initial issue with masks that had Joe Public bought them up like they did toilet rolls then there would have been none for the NHS?  It's a year ago so I might well be wrong but I seem to remember that from somewhere.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2021)

Boiling it down. Masks help stop transmission by droplets. 
They do not help stop transmission by aerosol.
Hence, when you go into a shop , because for a short period , they help in case you get close enough to transmit by droplet- cough, sneeze, talk animatedly etc.
If you are indoors for a length of time , sat at a desk say, then you transmit , and inhale,  by aerosol and the mask in that situation, is irrelevant.


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## Old Skier (Mar 26, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			How many of you would be happy for a surgeon to open you up without wearing a mask?
.
		
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Hopefully I wouldn't be in a position to know


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## Beezerk (Mar 26, 2021)

Just been stabbed, have to wait 15 minutes in a holding area because I'm driving.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2021)

DRW said:



			I don't have anything against wearing masks, and tend to wear a proper N95/N99 based mask, so it provides an element of individual protection and anything else.

If you believe the virus is transmitted by aerosol, then basically a cloth or non sealed mask does not do alot. Virus particles are tiny and can pass straight tho or around the mask when you breath in and out(yeah some will be caught). Helps with a redirection  but thats not going to help if sat in an office or class for hours, as its aerosol.

I prefer real world data, rather than words or hamster lab tests to prove a point. In the real world, there is loads of data in the USA and other countries 'states'(all tied up with other protections and restrictions of course) and to be honest, you couldn't tell which states have mask mandates and which don't. On top of that you cant tell when the state introduced them and stopping using them. Its like a guess, 50:50. You go and have a look if it interests you, would love to say otherwise, as wouldnt it be lovely if masks did stop transmission.

Not checked out this guys graphs to actual data figures, to see if they are correct, as really not that bothered as neutral on the matter, but heres a thread from the last couple of days, the guy makes some great points in his thread :-

Steve Brown on Twitter: "Just your periodic reminder that masks don't work (maybe they should, but the data says otherwise)." / Twitter

Would love to see real world counter population based examples if you have any? The denmark study didnt really draw any conclusions.

Masks are a minor help at best IMHO in the real world. I would take not being inside or 9 foot between us, over hoping for protection from the kind of masks people wear.

People get far to carried away with the fact they can see something and think it must work, but real life sadly isnt like that. If it was that easy, this would have all been over with ages ago.

Im mask neutral, just like to ask questions and challenge by own outlooks. Bit like asking why I cant wear jeans to play golf

Click to expand...

A mask will stop aerosol droplets from being projected, the mask will deflect them such they will stay local to you.  It doesn't need scientific tests to understand that.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 26, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Just been stabbed, have to wait 15 minutes in a holding area because I'm driving.
		
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I got bored after 5 and snuck out


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## Beezerk (Mar 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I got bored after 5 and snuck out 

Click to expand...

🤣
I've noticed a lot doing that.


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## GB72 (Mar 26, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			🤣
I've noticed a lot doing that.
		
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I lasted 10 minutes.


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## Imurg (Mar 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I lasted 10 minutes.
		
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I got kicked straight out....


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## USER1999 (Mar 26, 2021)

I was cycling, and was shown straight out. That said, every one was going straight out.
I am going to be driving Mrs Mogs to the jab centre later. That will be both of us done.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Wasn't the initial issue with masks that had Joe Public bought them up like they did toilet rolls then there would have been none for the NHS?  It's a year ago so I might well be wrong but I seem to remember that from somewhere.
		
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I believe so - but I dont think much was made of it for reason I suggest - a mask is not an equivalent transmission risk mitigation to separation and not being indoors with others - but some may have chosen to make it so.


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## larmen (Mar 26, 2021)

If masks were useless, why would so many countries mandate them independently from each other?


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 26, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I'm curious as to why you think there's a difference between a lab setting and in public? A person breaths in and out in a lab, just the same as in public... maybe I'm missing something.
		
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You are, there’s no denial of their efficacy.
People who work in a laboratory setting or medical settings will wear them properly using proper hygiene, single use, not fiddle with them and likely use them with proper care.
More so than joe public.
Joe public don’t want to wear them, don’t use them properly, don’t care for them, multiple use, take off and stuff in their pocket, put back on and generally go around touching stuff while shopping and save for the next day. Their pockets are infected, their fingers infected, equivalent to joe public sneezing and coughing on their hands infecting surfaces.

On top of that Masks gave some sort of complacency, social distancing fell by the wayside which should be the most important thing, anti baccing and handwashing an after thought exasperating the spread.

All trials and papers seem to be inconclusive and undecided.




SaintHacker said:



			How many of you would be happy for a surgeon to open you up without wearing a mask?
What it comes down to is, it might help reduce transmission, it might not, but it sure as hell isn't going to make it worse. So just put up with the bit of minor inconvenience in the knowledge you might save someones life.
		
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You can’t be sure as hell as it was reported at the beginning that mask wearing in the community could have a negative impact.
There was a lot of lobbying going off to change the stance on masks. To whose benefit you decide. But all trials are still inconclusive.

Yes I would allow a surgeon to go unmasked on me, I doubt an ill surgeon would be over my open wound though and I don’t think he wants some of my bodily fluids splashed in his face.
But the thought of friction caused flaky skin dropping in my wound doesn’t sound appealing and intensifies the germaphobe in me. Here’s a paper on surgeons and masks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

I’m sure Ethan can tell me I’m wrong but above is my belief.


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			You are, there’s no denial of their efficacy.
People who work in a laboratory setting or medical settings will wear them properly using proper hygiene, single use, not fiddle with them and likely use them with proper care.
More so than joe public.
Joe public don’t want to wear them, don’t use them properly, don’t care for them, multiple use, take off and stuff in their pocket, put back on and generally go around touching stuff while shopping and save for the next day. Their pockets are infected, their fingers infected, equivalent to joe public sneezing and coughing on their hands infecting surfaces.

On top of that Masks gave some sort of complacency, social distancing fell by the wayside which should be the most important thing, anti baccing and handwashing an after thought exasperating the spread.

All trials and papers seem to be inconclusive and undecided.
		
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So there's nothing wrong with the masks, only the people wearing them aren't doing so properly. You are defaulting to the lowest common denominator, i.e. they're a waste of time because you want that to be the outcome. Why not educate and enforce. That way you will see the benefit you talk of that is achieved in the labs. Not wanting to wear them doesn't make it right. Wanting to wear them properly should be the outcome we all want, unless you want to be selfish.

But lets be honest, you just don't want masks. And you give a great list of all the reasons why but you don't acknowledge/recognise that if worn properly, everyone benefits. No one wants them but some people recognise that they do have some benefit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2021)

larmen said:



			If masks were useless, why would so many countries mandate them independently from each other?
		
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Didn’t say or suggest for one moment that they were useless.  Just not as critical in the first instance to halting or reducing significantly  transmission...

Plus did all countries put in place all other separation measures as well as mandating masks - and maybe our politicians and experts guessed that many of the British public would only try and find ways around complying fully...which indeed is what has come about.  They needed us to comply with separation and staying at home...actions which themselves reduce the need for us to wear masks.  Now we are being able to start to socialise more the value and importance of wearing a mask increases.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A mask will stop aerosol droplets from being projected, the mask will deflect them such they will stay local to you.  It doesn't need scientific tests to understand that.
		
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There is a difference here between "droplets" and "aerosol".
Droplets are contained in breath and will generally fall to earth within 2 metres of the mouth in still air.  Hence the SD requirements. Masks help or prevent transmission of this sort.
It is now recognised ( probably always was, but not publicised early on) that transmission also occurs via aerosol breath. That is ordinary breath as most of us expel all the time. If that circulates within a confined area ( indoors) etc , then eventually, if the people are in that area long enough, they will breath that expelled air in. That is also a way of transmission, and it is a way that masks do not stop.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Didn’t say or suggest for one moment that they were useless.  Just not as critical in the first instance to halting or reducing significantly  transmission...

Plus did all countries put in place all other separation measures as well as mandating masks - and maybe our politicians and experts guessed that many of the British public would only try and find ways around complying fully...which indeed is what has come about.  They needed us to comply with separation and staying at home...actions which themselves reduce the need for us to wear masks.  Now we are being able to start to socialise more the value and importance of wearing a mask increases.
		
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From the beginning the W.H.O advocated masks and if I remember correctly, gloves as well, some of us wore either or both initially and had forum “experts” tell us we were wasting our time!


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 26, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			So there's nothing wrong with the masks, only the people wearing them aren't doing so properly. You are defaulting to the lowest common denominator, i.e. they're a waste of time because you want that to be the outcome. Why not educate and enforce. That way you will see the benefit you talk of that is achieved in the labs. Not wanting to wear them doesn't make it right. Wanting to wear them properly should be the outcome we all want, unless you want to be selfish.


But lets be honest, you just don't want masks. And you give a great list of all the reasons why but you don't acknowledge/recognise that if worn properly, everyone benefits. No one wants them but some people recognise that they do have some benefit.
		
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No there’s nothing wrong with masks, and there’s nothing right with masks as the studies are inconclusive.

If worn properly with social distancing, washing hands before and after use, never touching the mask and single use and changed every 20-30mins then I would imagine that would provide a positive benefit.

But that doesn’t and won’t happen in a community setting. So frequent hand washing/cleaning and social distancing should of been more enforced with this current policy.

No I don’t want masks, they are filthy germ ridden rags in hands of the public - literally.

There’s no need to argue, everything’s inconclusive and this is purely my belief from what I heard and read at the beginning and then how I’ve observed the public.

Now I’m late for work 😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			From the beginning the W.H.O advocated masks and if I remember correctly, gloves as well, some of us wore either or both initially and had forum “experts” tell us we were wasting our time!
		
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Yes - but just perhaps there is an element of what was done in the UK in respect of assessing the likelihood of complacency in the UK public.  

That were we to be told to be wearing masks from the word go - as well as the separation and stay at home edicts - many would have considered wearing a mask sufficient - and bothered less about staying at home and social distancing - after all they could well have said - we know those in SE Asia wear masks and yet they still socialise etc.  

But simple logic tells us that social distancing and staying at home (especially) make wearing of masks at the same time less critical. But as we get transmission under control and are able to socialise, having now learnt social distancing behaviours, the more important does wearing a mask become.  And I feel that that is where we are - and why wearing a mask now becomes much more important when out and about.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but just perhaps there is an element of what was done in the UK in respect of assessing the likelihood of complacency in the UK public. 

That were we to be told to be wearing masks from the word go - as well as the separation and stay at home edicts - many would have considered wearing a mask sufficient - and bothered less about staying at home and social distancing - after all they could well have said - we know those in SE Asia wear masks and yet they still socialise etc. 

But simple logic tells us that social distancing and staying at home (especially) make wearing of masks at the same time less critical. But as we get transmission under control and are able to socialise, having now learnt social distancing behaviours, the more important does wearing a mask become.  And I feel that that is where we are - and why wearing a mask now becomes much more important when out and about.
		
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We should of only gone out then, as now, when required, if people/shops had implemented them from minute one as advised, then maybe their wouldn’t be the scepticism there is now and it may of saved the odd life!

The fact was that initially we were told they weren’t required and then they were is the issue.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			We should of only gone out then, as now, when required, if people/shops had implemented them from minute one as advised, then maybe their wouldn’t be the scepticism there is now and it may of saved the odd life!

*The fact was that initially we were told they weren’t required and then they were is the issue.*

Click to expand...



I suspect that was because in the beginning they gave credit to the belief that the public would keep to SD , having taken in the reason that if no nearer than 2 metres, then droplets won't transmit. They'll fall to the ground.
At that time, indoors mixing was allowed only for households, remember?
But the public didn't do SD very well. 
As already stated, prolonged indoors togetherness supersedes the SD question because aerosol mixing occurs and masks don't prevent that.
Masks are useful ( vital , I would suggest, ) where meetings occur where SD might be inadvertently ( or deliberately) not adhered to.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I suspect that was because in the beginning they gave credit to the belief that the public would keep to SD , having taken in the reason that if no nearer than 2 metres, then droplets won't transmit. They'll fall to the ground.
At that time, indoors mixing was allowed only for households, remember?
But the public didn't do SD very well.
As already stated, prolonged indoors togetherness supersedes the SD question because aerosol mixing occurs and masks don't prevent that.
Masks are useful ( vital , I would suggest, ) where meetings occur where SD might be inadvertently ( or deliberately) not adhered to.
		
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Sorry, but SD really only came to the forefront once lockdowns were eased, if masks/face coverings had been mandated from day 1 then they had a chance of becoming the norm, restrictions were eased and then implementing masks/face coverings became an issue and still no clear advice was given on the wearing of them.

Not sure on this one, but weren’t masks only mandated in shops 9 months into the pandemic, before then it varied and was not enforced across the board.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2021)

[QUOTE="pauldj42, post: 2331348, member: 16999"*]Sorry, but SD really only came to the forefront once lockdowns were eased*, if masks/face coverings had been mandated from day 1 then they had a chance of becoming the norm, restrictions were eased and then implementing masks/face coverings became an issue and still no clear advice was given on the wearing of them.

Not sure on this one, but weren’t masks only mandated in shops 9 months into the pandemic, before then it varied and was not enforced across the board.[/QUOTE]

Don't think so. IIRC Prof Whitty gave the advice of keeping two metres away from each other right from the off. The first day he was in the National broadcast by the Gov on Covid?
If I'm wrong, I apologise , but that's how I remember the start of this Covid pandemic in U.K.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			[QUOTE="pauldj42, post: 2331348, member: 16999"*]Sorry, but SD really only came to the forefront once lockdowns were eased*, if masks/face coverings had been mandated from day 1 then they had a chance of becoming the norm, restrictions were eased and then implementing masks/face coverings became an issue and still no clear advice was given on the wearing of them.

Not sure on this one, but weren’t masks only mandated in shops 9 months into the pandemic, before then it varied and was not enforced across the board.

Don't think so. IIRC Prof Whitty gave the advice of keeping two metres away from each other right from the off. The first day he was in the National broadcast by the Gov on Covid?
If I'm wrong, I apologise , but that's how I remember the start of this Covid pandemic in U.K.
		
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Maybe I didn’t explain myself properly, initially during the first lockdown, the majority of people “played the game” only went out when neccesary and tried to implement what we’d been asked, ie SD, no masks etc, then when the lockdown eased, more people came out and the mixed messages ref the masks started.

So, if during the initial lockdown masks/face coverings and SD had been implemented both would of become the norm and therefore once relaxations came in and places became busier, we were left with no masks/face coverings and people not adhereing to the SD, the masks/face coverings may of provided an extra barrier when the SD was breached, ie, could of helped.

Instead we ended up with SD becoming weaker and then playing catch up to get people to wear the masks/face coverings.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2021)

Just had a quick google

24th July 2020 the Gov made it mandatory to wear face masks when visiting shops 👍


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just had a quick google

24th July 2020 the Gov made it mandatory to wear face masks when visiting shops 👍
		
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Thanks for that. My point was that the advice to social distance, I.e 2 metres, was given right from the off, by Prof Whitty. And, ( in the hope that it would be adhered to, ) there was an indication that therefore ( with a 2 metre gap between people)  masks weren't necessary .
Remember the supermarkets marked out so that everyone was 2 metres apart, well, supposed to be!😀


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## D-S (Mar 26, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1375509543459807236


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## IanM (Mar 26, 2021)

Question... continental Europe into third wave...  are we heading same route or will that be mitigated (to whatever extent) by greater levels of vaccination?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2021)

IanM said:



			Question... continental Europe into third wave...  are we heading same route or will that be mitigated (to whatever extent) by greater levels of vaccination?
		
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I asked the same question, I think it was the start of the week. I was sadly informed by Ethan and a few others it’s already here in a fashion ☹️


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Thanks for that. My point was that the advice to social distance, I.e 2 metres, was given right from the off, by Prof Whitty. And, ( in the hope that it would be adhered to, ) there was an indication that therefore ( with a 2 metre gap between people)  masks weren't necessary .
Remember the supermarkets marked out so that everyone was 2 metres apart, well, supposed to be!😀
		
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What I couldn’t understand was the initial info re masks was a bit mixed. Ave an idea who said it but not sure, but wasn’t “ its not the British way of doing things “ mentioned or something along those lines Re the wearing of masks. I read a good piece the other day re the guy in I eland who has handled there response to Covid. He said “ I have prepared for this moment for 15 years”. Which kinda got me thinking, how much planning for a situation like this have the UK undertaken. Hopefully that me be addressed when we have a public enquiry.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What I couldn’t understand was the initial info re masks was a bit mixed. Ave an idea who said it but not sure, but wasn’t “ its not the British way of doing things “ mentioned or something along those lines Re the wearing of masks. I read a good piece the other day re the guy in I eland who has handled there response to Covid. He said “ I have prepared for this moment for 15 years”. Which kinda got me thinking, how much planning for a situation like this have the UK undertaken. Hopefully that me be addressed when we have a public enquiry.
		
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Chris whitty did a speach (available on YouTube) on how to deal with a PANDEMIC years ago 

Only problem is cuts from central government

That's as far as the convo can go without political involvement


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Chris whitty did a speach (available on YouTube) on how to deal with a PANDEMIC years ago

Only problem is cuts from central government

That's as far as the convo can go without political involvement

👍
		
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## D-S (Mar 26, 2021)

Read earlier today (I think in the Times or maybe BBC website) that the 3rd will happen but due to the blunting nature of vaccines now administered to the vast majority of those in the Groups that have had 99% of the deaths and serious illnesses, it is more likely to be a ripple rather than a wave and most likely timing is November December.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2021)

This study by Oxford University on the effectivity of face masks explains why we should be wearing them.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now/


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## IanM (Mar 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I asked the same question, I think it was the start of the week. I was sadly informed by Ethan and a few others it’s already here in a fashion ☹️
		
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If that's right,  why are infection rates falling so consistently?  (Assuming they still are)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Thanks for that. My point was that the advice to social distance, I.e 2 metres, was given right from the off, by Prof Whitty. And, ( in the hope that it would be adhered to, ) there was an indication that therefore ( with a 2 metre gap between people)  masks weren't necessary .
Remember the supermarkets marked out so that everyone was 2 metres apart, well, supposed to be!😀
		
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We can’t get political, and accepting hindsight is a wonderful thing, initially though the W.H.O advised 1 metre and the wearing of masks, some of our scientists thought different and we went 2 metres and no masks, I do wonder sometimes how and when these discussions were had and if we’ll ever find out.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just had a quick google

24th July 2020 the Gov made it mandatory to wear face masks when visiting shops 👍
		
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It was Tash, but not enforced, and it was only this Jan that shops announced (Morrisons I think were the first) that they would refuse entry to those not wearing them, unless they were exempt.


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## Hobbit (Mar 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It was Tash, but not enforced, and it was only this Jan that shops announced (Morrisons I think were the first) that they would refuse entry to those not wearing them, unless they were exempt.
		
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Masks have been mandatory here in Spain since mid-March last year. Once you're outside your front gate you wear a mask unless you're sat down in a bar/restaurant or taking part in an energetic sport. I saw one person in the village yesterday without one. He was carrying it but put it on as he walked towards us. That's the first person I've since without a mask since God knows when.

Was disappointed to see so many people in public in a piece ion BBC B'fast this morning not wearing a mask. Why? The message has been broadcast load and clear. If adults can't heed the word, who's to blame? They are, end of. Treated like adults, behave like adults.


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## IainP (Mar 26, 2021)

IanM said:



			Question... continental Europe into third wave...  are we heading same route or* will that be mitigated (to whatever extent) by greater levels of vaccination*?
		
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Fingers & toes crossed it will


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## SaintHacker (Mar 27, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It was Tash, but not enforced, and it was only this Jan that shops announced (Morrisons I think were the first) that they would refuse entry to those not wearing them,* unless they were exempt*.
		
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This is the main issue with it for me. Anyone can be exempt if they want, they just go to Morrisons, ironically enough, and purchase a sunflower lanyard and hey presto, exemption they say. I say selfishness. The government should have jumped on this at the start and insisted any exemptions are by doctors notes only. I have to deal with this all day every day and it boils my piss, knowing this person could be sat there merrily spreading covid germs around and there's not a thing I can do about it, as they are 'exempt'. And its not older people who are more likely to have breathing issues, I would say 95% of the time its teenage girls.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This is the main issue with it for me. Anyone can be exempt if they want, they just go to Morrisons, ironically enough, and purchase a sunflower lanyard and hey presto, exemption they say. I say selfishness. The government should have jumped on this at the start and insisted any exemptions are by doctors notes only. I have to deal with this all day every day and it boils my piss, knowing this person could be sat there merrily spreading covid germs around and there's not a thing I can do about it, as they are 'exempt'. And its not older people who are more likely to have breathing issues, I would say 95% of the time its teenage girls.
		
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Indeed - just because I may be exempt doesn’t mean I couldn‘t try and wear it all the time and put up with it like the rest (and get used to it like the rest) and only when my condition made it impossible or at least very difficult to continue - only then take it off.


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## Fade and Die (Mar 27, 2021)

Just back from taking my wife to get her 2nd jab, only problem was they are only doing AZ today and she had Pfizer before. Was told we need to contact our GP (who had made this appointment) to rebook on a Pfizer day!😩


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## ForeRight (Mar 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			If that's right,  why are infection rates falling so consistently?  (Assuming they still are)
		
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The UK infection rate has pretty much levelled off over the past 10 days or so

https://coronavstats.co.uk/


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 28, 2021)

I had my first jab last Saturday (Oxford) and felt absolutely dreadful until Monday. I'm 29 years old and have already had the virus so was naiively expecting it to be nothing more than a bit of a dead arm.

I couldn't have been more wrong- it was essentially a more intense version of my covid illness compressed into 36 hours. I felt horrendous!

As others have said, I won't be booking my second jab on my time. It'll be getting done on a Monday or Tuesday!


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 28, 2021)

I felt fine for 24hrs after the jab then achey for 24hrs after that. All well now. Second jab rearranged for a time and location that suits me better. 

As an employer I'm pleased I don't employ some people on this forum. Setting up your second jab so any illness is covered on full pay by your employer is poor.


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## Dannyc (Mar 28, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I felt fine for 24hrs after the jab then achey for 24hrs after that. All well now. Second jab rearranged for a time and location that suits me better.

As an employer I'm pleased I don't employ some people on this forum. Setting up your second jab so any illness is covered on full pay by your employer is poor.
		
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From your point of view yeah I’m self employed so I’m easy but them employed people probably see owners making a lot of money while they get to work 40 hours for basic wages not saying that what your company do like   as I don’t know 
Anyway I’ve had my first jab Friday felt a few aches yesterday but woke up this morning feeling sound


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 28, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			From your point of view yeah I’m self employed so I’m easy but them employed people probably see owners making a lot of money while they get to work 40 hours for basic wages not saying that what your company do like   as I don’t know
Anyway I’ve had my first jab Friday felt a few aches yesterday but woke up this morning feeling sound
		
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Not every company is Apple or Amazon 😁.


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## road2ruin (Mar 28, 2021)

A lot in the press recently about the expected slow down in vaccinations in April however it’s been announced this morning that the Moderna vaccine should be here within 3 weeks or so which will hopefully get the numbers up again.


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			As an employer I'm pleased I don't employ some people on this forum. Setting up your second jab so any illness is covered on full pay by your employer is poor.
		
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Arranged my first jab for last Sunday, not to enable me to take sickness but because I'd rather feel like crap at work on a Monday than at home over a weekend.
Having said that, don't assume all employers are as good as you might be. Lots have treated their staff poorly over the last 12 months.


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## chellie (Mar 28, 2021)

Lots of staff don't get sick pay so any time off would be unpaid anyway. That's why people who are ill and should be at home drag themselves in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			Arranged my first jab for last Sunday, not to enable me to take sickness but because I'd rather feel like crap at work on a Monday than at home over a weekend.
Having said that, don't assume all employers are as good as you might be. Lots have treated their staff poorly over the last 12 months.
		
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It's a two way process and being a bad employer is as poor as being a bad employee. I've been on the receiving end before my current situation so I am well aware of both sides. 

Part of my point would be that any boss will make mental notes of little tricks and these will be stored away for future times. Things have been hugely tricky for many companies over these last 12 months and tough decisions will still be to come. If people want to make that decision making process easier for bosses then crack on. I'm sure they will be grateful 😆


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's a two way process and being a bad employer is as poor as being a bad employee. I've been on the receiving end before my current situation so I am well aware of both sides.

Part of my point would be that any boss will make mental notes of little tricks and these will be stored away for future times. Things have been hugely tricky for many companies over these last 12 months and tough decisions will still be to come. If people want to make that decision making process easier for bosses then crack on. I'm sure they will be grateful 😆
		
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I know there are employees who swing the lead, but I believe that most don't.
Generally at work, I just want to be kept busy, get my stuff done, get paid, go home. I make no apology for valuing my personal time more highly than the hours my employer pays me for.
I'm lucky. I get sick pay, though rarely use it, and have the opportunity to work from home if I'm fit to work but can't make it in.
Plenty are less fortunate. A huge number of folks are working on minimum wage for giant service industry contractors. As good as my employer is, the cleaning, maintenance and canteen staff are employed by such a firm. No work, no pay. Self-isolating with symptoms, no pay. Self-isolating with a cohabitee who's tested positive, no pay.
I wonder how much spread of the virus has been caused by people at work when they shouldn't be, because they have to pay the rent and feed their children.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I felt fine for 24hrs after the jab then achey for 24hrs after that. All well now. Second jab rearranged for a time and location that suits me better.

As an employer I'm pleased I don't employ some people on this forum. Setting up your second jab so any illness is covered on full pay by your employer is poor.
		
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Would you rather have your staff coming in on a Monday feeling totally wiped out and unrested from two days of suffering after a Friday evening jab?


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## Beezerk (Mar 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Would you rather have your staff coming in on a Monday feeling totally wiped out and unrested from two days of suffering after a Friday evening jab?
		
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I think he's saying some people are purposely booking their jabs for after a weekend, so if they get ill it won't be in their own time ie spoil their weekend.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I think he's saying some people are purposely booking their jabs for after a weekend, so if they get ill it won't be in their own time ie spoil their weekend.
		
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 Yea I know, so I’m asking if he would rather the alternative that I’m posting.


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## bobmac (Mar 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Would you rather have your staff coming in on a Monday feeling totally wiped out and unrested from two days of suffering after a Friday evening jab?
		
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Are people really feeling wiped out 3 days after getting their jab?


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## chrisd (Mar 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Are people really feeling wiped out 3 days after getting their jab?
		
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My wife and I had the 2nd jab last week. I had a sore arm for about 24 hours, she had some flu like symptoms for two days then it lifted quickly - hardly wiped out!


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Are people really feeling wiped out 3 days after getting their jab?
		
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Some people do. Rarely but it happens. I’m just asking, as a boss, what he’d rather his staff did hypothetically.


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## bobmac (Mar 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Some people do. Rarely but it happens.
		
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Name 5 people who were unable to work 3 days after their jab


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## Beezerk (Mar 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Name 5 people who were unable to work 3 days after their jab
		
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He works for the NHS, there will be loads 😬😉


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Would you rather have your staff coming in on a Monday feeling totally wiped out and unrested from two days of suffering after a Friday evening jab?
		
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If they are wiped out on the Monday then they should stay home. By having the jab on the Friday then I know they have done everything within their control to minimise disruption at work. They can do no more and how they are affected after that is out of their control. 

I'm not asking or suggesting that anyone should work whilst ill.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Name 5 people who were unable to work 3 days after their jab
		
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My mother in law was ill for a week, we had two guys in work down for 3/4 days , the vaccine affects people in different ways and some have been wiped out for at the be very least 2/3 days. My boss told me to get it on a Monday


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## Slime (Mar 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Are people really feeling wiped out 3 days after getting their jab?
		
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I expect some will .......................................... if it gets them time off work.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

Slime said:



			I expect some will .......................................... if it gets them time off work.
		
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I take it pogba will get it the night before a game? 😉


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If they are wiped out on the Monday then they should stay home. By having the jab on the Friday then I know they have done everything within their control to minimise disruption at work. They can do no more and how they are affected after that is out of their control.

I'm not asking or suggesting that anyone should work whilst ill.
		
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Why should anyone prioritise their job over down time? I certainly never would. I work because I have to.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Name 5 people who were unable to work 3 days after their jab
		
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I don’t have to in a hypothetical. That’s the opposite of hypothetical.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Why should anyone prioritise their job over down time? I certainly never would. I work because I have to.
		
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That's a common attitude in public service employees due to their very good terms of emloyment, they tend to have much more time off Ill each year.  When you work for a smaller outfit that has to produce to pay salaries you don't tend to think the world owes you a living.  Of course it's not everyone that has your attitude.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a common attitude in public service employees due to their very good terms of emloyment, they tend to have much more time off Ill each year.  When you work for a smaller outfit that has to produce to pay salaries you don't tend to think the world owes you a living.  Of course it's not everyone that has your attitude.
		
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I feel sorry for anyone who’s a slave to their job. It’s a means to an end and shouldn’t take precedence over someone’s health and well-being.


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a common attitude in public service employees due to their very good terms of emloyment, they tend to have much more time off Ill each year.  When you work for a smaller outfit that has to produce to pay salaries you don't tend to think the world owes you a living.  Of course it's not everyone that has your attitude.
		
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Totally agree. Whilst many of my ex-colleagues worked exceptionally hard, some having not taken a single day of sick leave in over twenty years, some had an appalling sickness record which went largely unchallenged.

The worst cases I ever knew were two female officers who, between them, in a combined service of around forty years had taken over *SIX YEARS *sick leave. Every time their work ethic was challenged they went sick. If they were moved to a different post, they went sick. Liabilities the pair of them, but such is the HR set up in public service they remained virtually untouchable. When anyone tried to take positive action a grievance went in, citing bullying, and the job caved in to them. I’m just glad I never had to manage either of them.

Can you imagine that being allowed to happen in the private sector?


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## upsidedown (Mar 28, 2021)

The NHS certainly have Sickness reviews as HiD used to do them


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## Sats (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Totally agree. Whilst many of my ex-colleagues worked exceptionally hard, some having not taken a single day of sick leave in over twenty years, some had an appalling sickness record which went largely unchallenged.

The worst cases I ever knew were two female officers who, between them, in a combined service of around forty years had taken over *SIX YEARS *sick leave. Every time their work ethic was challenged they went sick. If they were moved to a different post, they went sick. Liabilities the pair of them, but such is the HR set up in public service they remained virtually untouchable. When anyone tried to take positive action a grievance went in, citing bullying, and the job caved in to them. I’m just glad I never had to manage either of them.

Can you imagine that being allowed to happen in the private sector?
		
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Don't there is an officer I know that's been on recoup for 7 years!!!!


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## Sats (Mar 28, 2021)

Had my Jab on Thursday and had 48 hours of joint/muscle ache, headache and an active bottom.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a common attitude in public service employees due to their very good terms of emloyment, they tend to have much more time off Ill each year.  When you work for a smaller outfit that has to produce to pay salaries you don't tend to think the world owes you a living.  Of course it's not everyone that has your attitude.
		
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Good to see you tarring the majority with the same brush, well done.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Good to see you tarring the majority with the same brush, well done. 

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I do enjoy my 43 days off a year to be honest... 😀


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			The NHS certainly have Sickness reviews as HiD used to do them
		
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Covid sickness etc surely isnt counting? I know ours isn't if it's isolating etc as you could be on a warning for following the guidelines

I know planned ops don't count ..

Hadn't been sick since my planned wisdom tooth removal .. which was like 7 years ago until this year's planned op

Doesn't count for work so think I'm up to 10 years no sick now maybe even longer 

18 years service and counting


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a common attitude in public service employees due to their very good terms of emloyment, they tend to have much more time off Ill each year.  When you work for a smaller outfit that has to produce to pay salaries you don't tend to think the world owes you a living.  Of course it's not everyone that has your attitude.
		
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Yeah bull. Just spreading rubbish 

18 years service 

Apart from operations on a broken elbow (done at work) and 6 months later to remove the pins .. plus knee surgery and two minor ops I can count on one hand the amount of sickness I've had


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yeah bull. Just spreading rubbish

18 years service

Apart from operations on a broken elbow (done at work) and 6 months later to remove the pins .. plus knee surgery and two minor ops I can count on one hand the amount of sickness I've had
		
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I took four months off unpaid last year when everyone was telling me to go off on the sick instead. Even my boss told me he was surprised I didn’t. But it’s something that will always be held against the public sector; we are lazy work dodgers.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I took four months off unpaid last year when everyone was telling me to go off on the sick instead. Even my boss told me he was surprised I didn’t. But it’s something that will always be held against the public sector; we are lazy work dodgers.
		
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Fair play on the unpaid leave

Some people just haven't a clue how the world actually works apart from what they read in the daily mail


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Fair play on the unpaid leave

Some people just haven't a clue how the world actually works apart from what they read in the daily mail
		
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You mean you don’t walk into work on a morning, spend an hour reading the paper, chat about Line of Duty with your boss and have a laugh about your amazing pension scheme and annual leave entitlement? Doing it wrong!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You mean you don’t walk into work on a morning, spend an hour reading the paper, chat about Line of Duty with your boss and have a laugh about your amazing pension scheme and annual leave entitlement? Doing it wrong!
		
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Only on a Monday


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

My wife's a teacher. She went 80% part-time a few years ago to avoid a burnout. She has Mondays off now and spends them working at home. She sometimes doesn't do any schoolwork on a Sunday, but she'll usually disappear upstairs to do some preparation. She works every evening.
A fortnight easter holiday - two weeks of schoolwork at home trying to get on top of it all. It's her vocation, not just a job.
Be careful about insulting all public sector workers with lazy stereotypes.


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Good to see you tarring the majority with the same brush, well done. 

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I think there is a point included in there which has some merit, despite the way it was dressed!

I am of an era where people don’t report sick unless they are genuinely too ill to go into work, which is why so many of my former colleagues have excellent sickness records. During my entire service I am proud to say the only time I had off was following broken bones, and significant injury. I never had a day off with a cough, cold or stomach upset. There are many others like me.

But what I have just left behind is a job where the culture, especially amongst younger staff, has changed significantly. There is now far more short term self certified absence, and staff are far more prone to taking sick leave. They know the trigger point for management intervention and are careful not to reach it, but I have genuinely heard officers say that they are “entitled” to a given number of sick days each year, so they are going to take them.

I worked in the private sector thirty odd years ago, albeit for a large national firm, and don’t recall the same attitude prevailing then. I am now of an age where several of my friends either own their own business or are in management positions, and they won’t tolerate the same attitude to sickness which I regret to say has started to creep into the younger ranks within our previous job.

So whilst I don’t agree at all with SR’s rather sweeping generalisation, the underlying point does have merit, although I accept others may have different experiences.


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			...what I have just left behind is a job where the culture, especially amongst younger staff, has changed significantly. There is now far more short term self certified absence, and staff are far more prone to taking sick leave. They know the trigger point for management intervention and are careful not to reach it, but I have genuinely heard officers say that they are “entitled” to a given number of sick days each year, so they are going to take them.

I worked in the private sector thirty odd years ago, albeit for a large national firm, and don’t recall the same attitude prevailing then. I am now of an age where several of my friends either own their own business or are in management positions, and they won’t tolerate the same attitude to sickness which I regret to say has started to creep into the younger ranks within our previous job.
		
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Worth pointing out that you have, presumably, just retired in middle-age after 30 years, taking a 6 figure lump sum and a guaranteed c.50% of your final salary for life. 
Those younger boys and girls you're casting aspersions on have been deprived your outstanding final salary pension and will be policing into their late 60s, if they stick it out.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 28, 2021)

i work in the private sector but get generous leave, can accrue 10 days leave ,get 10 extra days for dependencies and get full sick pay for a year. 

Naturally sickness is through the roof and nobody just takes one day off, always a full week, and it’s accepted. I had one day off and returned to shock that I was actually there. 
The amount of covid holidays at the beginning were through the roof. My colleague has had 3 periods of self isolation and two days off for his jab. Kids are back at school so I doubt it’ll be his last.


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			Worth pointing out that you have, presumably, just retired in middle-age after 30 years, taking a 6 figure lump sum and a guaranteed c.50% of your final salary for life.
Those younger boys and girls you're casting aspersions on have been deprived your outstanding final salary pension and will be policing into their late 60s, if they stick it out.
		
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I’m not casting aspersions, I’m citing fact. And another fact is that a huge proportion of those joining now are not regarding the police as a long term career choice, so the odds of swathes of them remaining until their 60’s are very, very long indeed. Policing used to be a life long career choice - not any more.

And please, with the greatest respect, do not bring my pension benefits into this discussion. I knew what I was signing up to, as do those joining these days. The only ones with an axe to grind are those whose benefits have been changed mid-service, and that is a battle which remains ongoing.

I speak as I find, and what I found during two years managing a busy office with nearly 100 staff was a change in attitude towards sickness amongst a number of younger officers, which did not prevail ten or fifteen years ago.

If you find my experiences so distasteful, and it appears from one or two responses now that you do, rather than bringing the “gold plated final salary pension” element to the debate, I suggest you just hit the ignore button instead, because I will not debate with anyone who seeks to use my pension as some sort of weapon to prove a point.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I think there is a point included in there which has some merit, despite the way it was dressed!

I am of an era where people don’t report sick unless they are genuinely too ill to go into work, which is why so many of my former colleagues have excellent sickness records. During my entire service I am proud to say the only time I had off was following broken bones, and significant injury. I never had a day off with a cough, cold or stomach upset. There are many others like me.

But what I have just left behind is a job where the culture, especially amongst younger staff, has changed significantly. There is now far more short term self certified absence, and staff are far more prone to taking sick leave. They know the trigger point for management intervention and are careful not to reach it, but I have genuinely heard officers say that they are “entitled” to a given number of sick days each year, so they are going to take them.

I worked in the private sector thirty odd years ago, albeit for a large national firm, and don’t recall the same attitude prevailing then. I am now of an age where several of my friends either own their own business or are in management positions, and they won’t tolerate the same attitude to sickness which I regret to say has started to creep into the younger ranks within our previous job.

So whilst I don’t agree at all with SR’s rather sweeping generalisation, the underlying point does have merit, although I accept others may have different experiences.
		
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The point as was presented, and as I took it, was that the attitude was common.  I'm now nearly 39 years into public service with two different employers, and whilst I would agree that the were a small number of people in both firms who took the proverbial, the vast majority of those I have worked with dragged themselves in, even when at times they shouldn't.

If there was an underlying point it was lost for me in the rush to have a swipe at public servants, something I've noticed that is becoming much more common these days.


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The point as was presented, and as I took it, was that the attitude was common.  I'm now nearly 39 years into public service with two different employers, and whilst I would agree that the were a small number of people in both firms who took the proverbial, the vast majority of those I have worked with dragged themselves in, even when at times they shouldn't.

If there was an underlying point it was lost for me in the rush to have a swipe at public servants, something I've noticed that is becoming much more common these days.
		
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As someone newly retired I’m perhaps entering uncharted territory by looking for the good in what people do/say/write.

It’s a totally alien concept and one which won’t last, so expect normal service to be resumed shortly.

😇


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## theoneandonly (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I think there is a point included in there which has some merit, despite the way it was dressed!

I am of an era where people don’t report sick unless they are genuinely too ill to go into work, which is why so many of my former colleagues have excellent sickness records. During my entire service I am proud to say the only time I had off was following broken bones, and significant injury. I never had a day off with a cough, cold or stomach upset. There are many others like me.

But what I have just left behind is a job where the culture, especially amongst younger staff, has changed significantly. There is now far more short term self certified absence, and staff are far more prone to taking sick leave. They know the trigger point for management intervention and are careful not to reach it, but I have genuinely heard officers say that they are “entitled” to a given number of sick days each year, so they are going to take them.

I worked in the private sector thirty odd years ago, albeit for a large national firm, and don’t recall the same attitude prevailing then. I am now of an age where several of my friends either own their own business or are in management positions, and they won’t tolerate the same attitude to sickness which I regret to say has started to creep into the younger ranks within our previous job.

So whilst I don’t agree at all with SR’s rather sweeping generalisation, the underlying point does have merit, although I accept others may have different experiences.
		
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Ah Heroically going to work when you have a cough or a cold... Spreading it to others... Don't worry, I doubt it will ever be a problem


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## Sats (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			As someone newly retired I’m perhaps entering uncharted territory by looking for the good in what people do/say/write.

It’s a totally alien concept and one which won’t last, so expect normal service to be resumed shortly.

😇
		
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I am so jealous you've got out! I signed up for the 87 pension and 30 years. Sod knows what I'll get in the end.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Good to see you tarring the majority with the same brush, well done. 

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I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush and I thought I had clarified that in my last sentence.
If that's the way it came over then I didn't explain it well.  What I was trying to say was that taking advantage of Public Sector work conditions with respect to time off sick has become more acceptable these days and @Kellfires post typified this attitude. 

I think there is no doubt that more are 'swinging the lead' these days and especially where the system allows people to get away with it.


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## Kellfire (Mar 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush and I thought I had clarified that in my last sentence.
If that's the way it came over then I didn't explain it well.  What I was trying to say was that taking advantage of Public Sector work conditions with respect to time off sick has become more acceptable these days and @Kellfires post typified this attitude.

I think there is no doubt that more are 'swinging the lead' these days and especially where the system allows people to get away with it.
		
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How is it taking advantage for someone to try to make sure that any potential sick time doesn’t detract from their ability to have their mandated days off work to rest and enjoy life?


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## AmandaJR (Mar 28, 2021)

I can see both sides of this debate but would choose to have my jab on a Friday so if I felt rough I didn't have to soul search as to whether I was fit to work or not.


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			If you find my experiences so distasteful, and it appears from one or two responses now that you do, rather than bringing the “gold plated final salary pension” element to the debate, I suggest you just hit the ignore button instead.
		
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The thing about posting our opinions - which they are, not facts - on public forums is that we subject ourselves to scrutiny. If you wish your views to be unchallenged, don't publish them.

Your pension scheme was scrapped because it cannot pay for itself. Your 30 years of payments are highly unlikely to ever pay for the amount that you will receive. My point was that the younger generation can't have a decent pension because they have to pay for yours in addition to their own.
You should be expressing your gratitude to them for your good fortune rather than demeaning them with generalisations.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I can see both sides of this debate but would choose to have my jab on a Friday so if I felt rough I didn't have to soul search as to whether I was fit to work or not.
		
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I've got mine on a Friday. Before my 12 hour weekend shifts 

(2nd jab suppose to be less effects)

Even if it was I can function enough to work


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## AmandaJR (Mar 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I've got mine on a Friday. Before my 12 hour weekend shifts

(2nd jab suppose to be less effects)

Even if it was I can function enough to work
		
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I've heard and read the same about the effects on the booster (thank goodness). No way could I have risked driving the morning after mine. Probably ok by lunchtime though.


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			The thing about posting our opinions - which they are, not facts - on public forums is that we subject ourselves to scrutiny. If you wish your views to be unchallenged, don't publish them.

Your pension scheme was scrapped because it cannot pay for itself. Your 30 years of payments are highly unlikely to ever pay for the amount that you will receive. My point was that the younger generation can't have a decent pension because they have to pay for yours in addition to their own.
You should be expressing your gratitude to them for your good fortune rather than demeaning them with generalisations.
		
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Do not lecture me regarding my pension.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've heard and read the same about the effects on the booster (thank goodness). No way could I have risked driving the morning after mine. Probably ok by lunchtime though.
		
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My first jab was well timed

It was lunchtime that I drove, however if I had to go sick I was overtime anyways so someone else would benefit and would cost the company nothing lol


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2021)

Sats said:



			I am so jealous you've got out! I signed up for the 87 pension and 30 years. Sod knows what I'll get in the end.
		
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I’ll keep fingers crossed that all those who signed up for the ‘87 will have their benefits reinstated. Stay safe.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush and I thought I had clarified that in my last sentence.
If that's the way it came over then I didn't explain it well.  What I was trying to say was that taking advantage of Public Sector work conditions with respect to time off sick has become more acceptable these days and @Kellfires post typified this attitude.

I think there is no doubt that more are 'swinging the lead' these days and especially where the system allows people to get away with it.
		
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I said majority, not everyone, and having put the boot in with the first line the last line hardly redresses the balance.  Poor.

The sort of person who takes advantage of their terms of service does so because they are that sort of person, not because they are in the public or private sector.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			The thing about posting our opinions - which they are, not facts - on public forums is that we subject ourselves to scrutiny. If you wish your views to be unchallenged, don't publish them.

Your pension scheme was scrapped because it cannot pay for itself. Your 30 years of payments are highly unlikely to ever pay for the amount that you will receive. My point was that the younger generation can't have a decent pension because they have to pay for yours in addition to their own.
You should be expressing your gratitude to them for your good fortune rather than demeaning them with generalisations.
		
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The pension scheme could pay for itself, had those in charge of the scheme invested the contributions.  The BTP pension scheme proves that;

https://btppensions.co.uk/joining-the-Fund/what-is-the-fund


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## GB72 (Mar 28, 2021)

This is true. I worked for a company once that allowed 2 weeks paid sick leave. Number of people were surprisingly Ill for exactly 14 days every year but never for a period longer than that which was permitted for self certification


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The pension scheme could pay for itself, had those in charge of the scheme invested the contributions.  The BTP pension scheme proves that;

https://btppensions.co.uk/joining-the-Fund/what-is-the-fund

View attachment 35868

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Very true. Tis why tfl pension fund is not run by the company and has been fantasticly run for years with shares in apple, Microsoft , Telsa etc at the right times


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## larmen (Mar 28, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've heard and read the same about the effects on the booster (thank goodness). No way could I have risked driving the morning after mine. Probably ok by lunchtime though.
		
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I thought the 2nd jab is more like to lead to effects because the body is already fighting it a bit?


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## AmandaJR (Mar 28, 2021)

larmen said:



			I thought the 2nd jab is more like to lead to effects because the body is already fighting it a bit?
		
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It seems the AZ is less with 2nd but Pfizer more. Having had Covid I was expecting a reaction as my 1st jab kind of like a booster. So the 2nd will make me superwoman!


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## Sats (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ll keep fingers crossed that all those who signed up for the ‘87 will have their benefits reinstated. Stay safe.
		
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Fingers crossed, already decided that I'll leave after 30 regardless, unless I can get another job, mind you most jobs don't care if you're an advanced driver or you've got your shots course.


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## upsidedown (Mar 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Covid sickness etc surely isnt counting? I know ours isn't if it's isolating etc as you could be on a warning for following the guidelines

I know planned ops don't count ..

Hadn't been sick since my planned wisdom tooth removal .. which was like 7 years ago until this year's planned op

Doesn't count for work so think I'm up to 10 years no sick now maybe even longer

18 years service and counting
		
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Correct , covid and having to isolate not part of reviews


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Do not lecture me regarding my pension.
		
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Hardly lecturing, just defending the younger generation, who will pay for our comfortable retirements, because you questioned their work ethic.
I think anyone needs a little reality check if they call out an entire generation's sense of entitlement when their own is fairly self-evident.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			The thing about posting our opinions - which they are, not facts - on public forums is that we subject ourselves to scrutiny. If you wish your views to be unchallenged, don't publish them.

Your pension scheme was scrapped because it cannot pay for itself. Your 30 years of payments are highly unlikely to ever pay for the amount that you will receive. My point was that the younger generation can't have a decent pension because they have to pay for yours in addition to their own.
You should be expressing your gratitude to them for your good fortune rather than demeaning them with generalisations.
		
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How come you are an expert on Billyboots pension?  You have made a couple of statements as facts. Care to tell us how you are certain of that?


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## IainP (Mar 28, 2021)

We seem to be a long way from coronavirus/covid19 at the moment 🤷‍♂️


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How come you are an expert on Billyboots pension?  You have made a couple of statements as facts. Care to tell us how you are certain of that?
		
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I'm not an expert on anything, but I can read. Information on police pensions and the reasons for reform is pretty well reported. 
Not looking for an argument - I just take issue with sweeping statements about young people having it easy; it's not like it was in our day - that kind of stuff.
I'm an older person too. I don't want younger people thinking we're all dinosaurs.


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## RichA (Mar 28, 2021)

IainP said:



			We seem to be a long way from coronavirus/covid19 at the moment 🤷‍♂️
		
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We wish.


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			Hardly lecturing, just defending the younger generation, who will pay for our comfortable retirements, because you questioned their work ethic.
I think anyone needs a little reality check if they call out an entire generation's sense of entitlement when their own is fairly self-evident.
		
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You’ve got some nerve, I’ll give you that.

How many of the hundred plus return to work interviews I have conducted over many years with young in service police officers following their sickness absence were you actually present at? None, that’s how many. So kindly don’t criticise me for questioning the work ethic of a number of those officers (not the entire generation) when I have direct first hand knowledge of their attitudes and you have absolutely none whatsoever.

Are you aware of their sickness patterns? Of those who have an uncanny tendency to report sick before night shifts, or bank holiday weekends, or other similar trends which tell a clear tale about their attitudes to their job and their colleagues? No, you aren’t. And yet you have the temerity to defend those individuals from me for saying how it is? That’s absolutely priceless.

And the crowning turd atop of your attempt to give me a dressing down because you don’t like what I have to say is to try and justify that by saying I should be grateful that my pension outstrips theirs?

Wind your neck in.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I said majority, not everyone, and having put the boot in with the first line the last line hardly redresses the balance.  Poor.

The sort of person who takes advantage of their terms of service does so because they are that sort of person, not because they are in the public or private sector.
		
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No, not majority but more prevalent than in the Private Sector.  There is no doubt in my mind that if people these days can easily (The phrase is 'swing a sicky' I believe)  then many will take advantage of it. It's not unique to the Public sector but is certainly more prevalent there.


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## Pants (Mar 28, 2021)

Nothing new here.  My first "proper" job was working within an organisation in Millbank which, although not actually Civil Service, was closely related and had the same culture, benefits, etc.  On the first day there I was approached by the union rep who tried to convince me to join and in conversation mentioned that I could (if I were "unwell" ) take up to 25 (??) days sick leave without questions asked. As most people did it, it would look odd if I didn't 

My work ethic wouldn't allow me to to do this and I left within a year (as did several others).  Shame really as I never had that opportunity to take an additional 5 weeks holiday again.

Good news is that I am looking forward to receiving nearly 1 year's worth of gold plated CS pension when I fully retire.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No, not majority but more prevalent than in the Private Sector.  There is no doubt in my mind that if people these days can easily (The phrase is 'swing a sicky' I believe)  then many will take advantage of it. It's not unique to the Public sector but is certainly more prevalent there.
		
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Perhaps the issue is that the private sector doesn’t give its staff the support needed during sick leave by punishing people with lack of pay which is why it can often afford to pay people a higher salary? Maybe, instead of saying that the public sector has it easy in that way, people should lobby for better working conditions in the private sector.


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## Beezerk (Mar 29, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Perhaps the issue is that the private sector doesn’t give its staff the support needed during sick leave by punishing people with lack of pay which is why it can often afford to pay people a higher salary? Maybe, instead of saying that the public sector has it easy in that way, people should lobby for better working conditions in the private sector.
		
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A nice sentiment, but the amount of people who would take advantage of such a system would sky rocket I imagine. I've seen it all too often in the factories I visit (most on minimum wage may I add) the old Monday morning blues, always the same people as well.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			A nice sentiment, but the amount of people who would take advantage of such a system would sky rocket I imagine. I've seen it all too often in the factories I visit (most on minimum wage may I add) the old Monday morning blues, always the same people as well.
		
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No surprise that those being paid the least and presumably with the worse benefits among the staff have the worst sickness records. But then that’s a whole other debate about the pathetic level of the minimum wage in this country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2021)

The main reason my wife felt she could not return to work in the NHS after taking her NHS pension was simply what was allowed to happen and not be properly addressed by immediate line management and HR.  She did not so much blame immediate Line Management as that was too often very good and caring nurses being given the wrong sort of management responsibilities - more it was HR not stepping in to support the management when issues were evident and doing the difficult stuff was necessary.

My wife just couldn't stomach what she'd see a few doing - inappropriate or misplaced behaviour impacting others in the team and playing the system to their benefit - especially when that playing of the system often impacted her team's ability to provide the level of care and support to the patients that was their responsibility.  And as she is still in touch with a couple of friends in the team she was in, she has heard of the same self-serving and selfish behaviour of some through the pandemic continuing.

Small numbers perhaps - but the bad apple...even though the bad apples can be good at their job when they do it...and there's the rub.

Upside for my wife is that she has a new 2-3 day role in the same field but outside of the NHS that she loves - and that has enabled her to provide support to many through the last difficult year.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2021)

Some of you need to get òutside and take your frustration out on a little white ball rather than fellow Forummers and bickering.

This thread is supposedly about the personal impact of this virus and thus should not be about arguing a person's individual experiences.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 29, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Perhaps the issue is that the private sector doesn’t give its staff the support needed during sick leave by punishing people with lack of pay which is why it can often afford to pay people a higher salary? Maybe, instead of saying that the public sector has it easy in that way, people should lobby for better working conditions in the private sector.
		
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Or maybe not


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## oxymoron (Mar 29, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Perhaps the issue is that the private sector doesn’t give its staff the support needed during sick leave by punishing people with lack of pay which is why it can often afford to pay people a higher salary? Maybe, instead of saying that the public sector has it easy in that way, people should lobby for better working conditions in the private sector.
		
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Generalizing a bit i see , the firm i work for provide al sorts of support but we still have the odd people milk the systems for their own ends.
This often leads to others having to do extra unsociable shifts , doubles and the like .
During this epidemic the support they have made available was fantastic from flexible working to short time with full pay so not all private companies are 
as bad as you make out .I agree some are . Perhaps its the other way round , should we lobby for the public sector to be brought in to the 21st century ?
Before you explode its just a thought to balance your what seems one sided view.
Have you ever worked in the private sector ?


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2021)

oxymoron said:



			Generalizing a bit i see , the firm i work for provide al sorts of support but we still have the odd people milk the systems for their own ends.
This often leads to others having to do extra unsociable shifts , doubles and the like .
During this epidemic the support they have made available was fantastic from flexible working to short time with full pay so not all private companies are
as bad as you make out .I agree some are . Perhaps its the other way round , should we lobby for the public sector to be brought in to the 21st century ?
Before you explode its just a thought to balance your what seems one sided view.
Have you ever worked in the private sector ?
		
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Of course I generalise and made this clear, just as others have done about the public sector which prompted my responses. Did you expect me to list every single public and private sector business and list their specific benefits?

I never said all private sector businesses are “bad”. 

Yes I have worked in the private sector, once for a pharmaceutical company and once for an American insurance company. The American company offered excellent staff benefits and support but relatively low wages for the industry.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Or maybe not
		
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Is your attitude that future generations don’t deserve a better quality of life and work/life balance than you had, or do you believe that the private sector has its profit first, staff second attitudes spot on?


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2021)

I started work in the mid 70's. A public sector business. Pulling a 6 month sicky on full pay was around then and wasn't applicable to any particular age group. In '92 I switched to another public sector company, and experienced the same. It was rare but it happened. In '98 I switched to the private sector. Pulling a sicky still happened but only as far as the company limit allowed.

Age had no bearing on who pulled a sicky, only attitude of mind.


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I started work in the mid 70's. A public sector business. Pulling a 6 month sicky on full pay was around then and wasn't applicable to any particular age group. In '92 I switched to another public sector company, and experienced the same. It was rare but it happened. In '98 I switched to the private sector. Pulling a sicky still happened but only as far as the company limit allowed.

Age had no bearing on who pulled a sicky, only attitude of mind.
		
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I think something important to remember is that “pulling a sicky” isn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do if you’re sick. It’s a travesty that some people don’t take time off work when they’re sick because they can’t afford to take time unpaid or fear losing their job.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 29, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think something important to remember is that “pulling a sicky” isn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do if you’re sick. It’s a travesty that some people don’t take time off work when they’re sick because they can’t afford to take time unpaid or fear losing their job.
		
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In my experience, actually being sick is called "being off sick" and being absent whilst claiming to be sick is "pulling a sicky" i.e. Friday, not well enough to come to work but miraculous recovery to be in the pub that night. Seen that loads, and having worked for both Private and Public sector clients, not restricted to either. 

My opinion on the public v private "sickness" view is that, in my experience, public sector bodies have a much more lax policy on managing absence (in one case, no absence policy was documented). They actually provide *less *support to those off sick in many of these cases as no one really gives a rats ass why someone is off as it won't really be managed anyway. In two years with my last public sector client I never saw a single return to work discussion take place. 

Private sectors also tend to be profit driven and therefore they "feel" or "notice" the impact to productivity more and therefore manage it tighter to reduce the impact to that productivity and, ultimately profitability. Public sector has no such drivers as so loss of productivity doesn't mean much, in addition, many public sector bodies are monopolies and have no competition (HMLR, HMRC, DVLA etc) and so again, productivity hasn't been a main driver in the clients I have worked with. 

My personal situation is I don't work, I don't get paid, regardless of the reason. With the exception of a month off when I was in an accident a few yeas ago, I have had no "sickies" in over 10 years. I can't really afford to, yet HMRC want to class me as an "employee" (whole other rant).


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 29, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think something important to remember is that “pulling a sicky” isn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do if you’re sick. It’s a travesty that some people don’t take time off work when they’re sick because they can’t afford to take time unpaid or fear losing their job.
		
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You are not pulling a sicky if you are ill. Which neatly brings us back to where this began . If you feel rough after your jab then you can genuinely be off work sick.


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## Hobbit (Mar 29, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think something important to remember is that “pulling a sicky” isn’t necessarily the wrong thing to do if you’re sick. It’s a travesty that some people don’t take time off work when they’re sick because they can’t afford to take time unpaid or fear losing their job.
		
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Unless the interpretation has changed, "pulling a sicky" isn't done when you're sick. Being off ill is genuine, but pulling a sicky is taking sick leave when you're not ill.

As for the debate around paid sick leave, maybe another thread is required... after all, this is a thread about Covid.


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## larmen (Mar 29, 2021)

I am getting conflicting information.

Does rule of 6 include children (under 5)? In England.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 29, 2021)

My company (of 13+ys) is very tight on us logging sickness days off.  And they monitor it and always do a very quick return to work 'interview/check' by telephone - whether it's 1 day off or 10.   But in my experience they are very supportive around longer periods off sick or absence signed off by GP.  But if I was to be off sick a day here - a day there - on a fairly regular basis - or more extended periods off for the same reason - they'd be seeking an explanation and a plan from me and/or my GP as to how to get over it.

Interesting observation I heard was that in future more of us might be more inclined to sign-off work sick if we have cold/flu symptoms as we have become MUCH more aware of spreading viruses.  And so less of the 'I'll just battle through and go into work - they need me' attitude.


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## road2ruin (Mar 29, 2021)

larmen said:



			I am getting conflicting information.

Does rule of 6 include children (under 5)? In England.
		
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Yep, all children are counted in the rule of 6 (assuming it's more than 2 families), if it's just two families then there are no limits on the numbers. Only time that children under 5 are not counted are formally organised parent and child groups.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2021)

larmen said:



			I am getting conflictiinformation.

Does rule of 6 include children (under 5)? In England.
		
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Government website is best.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 29, 2021)

Two pages of nothing at all to do with covid. Start a new thread maybe?


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## Kellfire (Mar 29, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Two pages of nothing at all to do with covid. Start a new thread maybe?
		
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It was a natural progression of a conversation around Covid, vaccines and the need for sick leave after those vaccinations. It was on topic and has now finished.


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## larmen (Mar 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Yep, all children are counted in the rule of 6 (assuming it's more than 2 families), if it's just two families then there are no limits on the numbers. Only time that children under 5 are not counted are formally organised parent and child groups.
		
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Thank, that confirmed my thoughts.

Formal football is ok in numbers, but 4 dads and 4 kids are not.


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## GB72 (Mar 29, 2021)

larmen said:



			Thank, that confirmed my thoughts.

Formal football is ok in numbers, but 4 dads and 4 kids are not.
		
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Guess so as formal football has to comply with and monitor compliance with the FA covid guidelines and regulations whereas a friendly kickabout does not and so is a potentially greater risk.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Guess so as formal football has to comply with and monitor compliance with the FA covid guidelines and regulations whereas a friendly kickabout does not and so is a potentially greater risk.
		
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I suppose they are likely to lick the football lol


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## larmen (Mar 29, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I suppose they are likely to lick the football lol
		
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I am talking about 4 year old kids ;-). 
Little Kickers is his group, they are usually about 8. But the local dads sometimes went out for a kick about, and that’s not allowed yet.


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## chellie (Mar 29, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My company (of 13+ys) is very tight on us logging sickness days off.  And they monitor it and always do a very quick return to work 'interview/check' by telephone - whether it's 1 day off or 10.   But in my experience they are very supportive around longer periods off sick or absence signed off by GP.  But if I was to be off sick a day here - a day there - on a fairly regular basis - or more extended periods off for the same reason - they'd be seeking an explanation and a plan from me and/or my GP as to how to get over it.

Interesting observation I heard was that in future more of us might be more inclined to sign-off work sick if we have cold/flu symptoms as we have become MUCH more aware of spreading viruses.  And so less of the 'I'll just battle through and go into work - they need me' attitude.
		
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Only those who get paid sick pay though. Those who don't won't have the "need me attitude" and who can blame them. More likely to be out of a job as well if they do take sick leave.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 29, 2021)

chellie said:



			Only those who get paid sick pay though. Those who don't won't have the "need me attitude" and who can blame them. More likely to be out of a job as well if they do take sick leave.
		
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This is something I'm interested in long term 

Say it's 2022 .. covid restrictions been gone a year but we needed masks and self isolate in winter if sick etc 

How long before covid becomes just like a cold .. yeah you got no taste but I feel fine.. everyone has been offered the vaccine. NHS isn't over run

Does self isolating go and it just become like the common cold


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 29, 2021)

Re pulling a sicky.
Why do you think that Fridays are so busy on the golf course?

I was actually talking to a guy on the course and turned round to see him hiding in the woods.
On asking what that was all about, he said he just spotted his boss was coming down the 14th fairway.


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## Old Skier (Mar 29, 2021)

Best get on track before @PhilTheFragger wakes up


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## GB72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Quick question. Now we can meet in groups of 6 outside, I assume that remains socially distanced.


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## Billysboots (Mar 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Quick question. Now we can meet in groups of 6 outside, I assume that remains socially distanced.
		
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Social distancing and face coverings are widely reported to be required for some considerable time to come.


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## GB72 (Mar 29, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Social distancing and face coverings are widely reported to be required for some considerable time to come.
		
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Thought so, from a number of posts on social media I just thought I would check (plus in many news reports the meeting up aspect has been mentioned but the socially distanced element has not been emphasised like before)


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## IainP (Mar 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Thought so, from a number of posts on social media I just thought I would check (plus in many news reports the meeting up aspect has been mentioned but the socially distanced element has not been emphasised like before)
		
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Unfortunately a fair few posts on FB of golfers blatantly not distancing  - hopefully they don't make it onto the red tops 🤨😕


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## GB72 (Mar 29, 2021)

IainP said:



			Unfortunately a fair few posts on FB of golfers blatantly not distancing  - hopefully they don't make it onto the red tops 🤨😕
		
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Yep, pretty much all golfers plus the same on at least 1 YouTube video. Sad to see after such a long wait.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 29, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Re pulling a sicky.
Why do you think that Fridays are so busy on the golf course?

I was actually talking to a guy on the course and turned round to see him hiding in the woods.
On asking what that was all about, he said he just spotted his boss was coming down the 14th fairway.
		
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Easily caught out these days, the boss can check tee times on line  so glad I'm retired


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376273061238964226
Meanwhile, in Chelmsford.


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## Slime (Mar 30, 2021)

Well I hope they all ............................. 

There really are no words.
Round them up and put them on an unused oil rig until masks are not mandatory in shops.


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## Old Skier (Mar 30, 2021)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376273061238964226
Meanwhile, in Chelmsford. 

Click to expand...

Blame them and the shop manager


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2021)

Kellfire said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376273061238964226
Meanwhile, in Chelmsford. 

Click to expand...

Is there some proof this is a recent video, I don't trust anything on social media.


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is there some proof this is a recent video, I don't trust anything on social media.
		
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Yea, the police confirmed a man was arrested on Saturday for it though he was done for using a mobile while driving. The actual women involved were just made to leave.


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## D-S (Mar 30, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376919238871502852


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## D-S (Mar 30, 2021)

Cases on the way down again

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376919324657659908


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## D-S (Mar 30, 2021)

This (hospital admissions) is the metric that the government was saying was going to be one of the main drivers for hitting reopening dates:-

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376923438133182469


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## larmen (Mar 31, 2021)

In the news this morning they talked about vaccination of animals. Dogs, cats, foxes and one other I can’t remember.

Must be done with people then?
Or taking out the carrier who doesn’t socially distance themselves?


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 31, 2021)

larmen said:



			In the news this morning they talked about vaccination of animals. Dogs, cats, foxes and one other I can’t remember.

Must be done with people then?
Or taking out the carrier who doesn’t socially distance themselves?
		
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It’s a pharmaceuticals wet dream at the minute. 
Next it’ll be aerosols in your home to spray the fleas/dust mites and spiders with an anti viral.


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## IainP (Mar 31, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			It’s a pharmaceuticals wet dream at the minute.
Next it’ll be aerosols in your home to spray the fleas/dust mites and spiders with an anti viral.
		
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Ha, yes!

Next we'll be finding out that computer anti virus companies actually create new threats to keep them relevant 😲😲

#conspiraciesrus 😉


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## larmen (Mar 31, 2021)

Biontech just said their stuff works on 12+ year old children as well


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2021)

We are directly feeling the pain and misery ...a very tough place to be with v limited job/work opportunities and lots of new unemployed looking for them.   For  some folks the pandemic has been no easy-life on furlough or getting grants - and so being able  to save lots of money and have a nice time...it's been very tough and difficult - and will continue to be so.


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## D-S (Mar 31, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377277973330542593


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## jim8flog (Apr 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Could your child die from taking the vaccine?
Could your child die if he/she catches covid-19?
		
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I had the measles vaccine around the age of 5
I had the polio vaccine  around the age of 5
I had the Rubella vaccine around the age of 5
 I had the small pox vaccine at the age of 9 

I am still alive.

B. Yes there have been an number of deaths of under 20s


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 1, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I had the measles vaccine around the age of 5
I had the polio vaccine  around the age of 5
I had the Rubella vaccine around the age of 5
I had the small pox vaccine at the age of 9

I am still alive.

B. Yes there have been an number of deaths of under 20s
		
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Yes, me too, all of the above and vaccine for diphtheria when a nipper. Mum was a SRN.
Had my first covid jab on 20th Jan and getting my second on Saturday ten and a half weeks after the first. Both Pfizer.
My GP and the NHS get full marks and a gold star from me.


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## patricks148 (Apr 1, 2021)

right lets stick to the Topic which is
*Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?*
not use it to make personal comments on others, if you don't agree with them, fine disagree with the post not the poster.

thread edited and tidied


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are directly feeling the pain and misery ...a very tough place to be with v limited job/work opportunities and lots of new unemployed looking for them.   For  some folks the pandemic has been no easy-life on furlough or getting grants - and so being able  to save lots of money and have a nice time...it's been very tough and difficult - and will continue to be so.
		
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There's a Pandemic around, do you really expect things to be different. Just look around the World and you will see it's as difficult almost everywhere.  

What do you want to happen now?


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## D-S (Apr 1, 2021)

Sky reporting that numbers ‘continue to plateau‘ despite obvious facts and numbers to the contrary - do they not even read the stats?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377641950631837696


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## D-S (Apr 1, 2021)

The facts

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377639052376211457


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## D-S (Apr 1, 2021)

Cases facts


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377639170080931840


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2021)

D-S said:



			Cases facts


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377639170080931840

Click to expand...

This stuff ìs on the government website and your local council's for anyone interested.

Do we really need a  'cut and paste ' here?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 1, 2021)

drdel said:



			This stuff ìs on the government website and your local council's for anyone interested.

Do we really need a  'cut and paste ' here?
		
Click to expand...

That’s twice now someone is being critisized just because they put up the current Covid stats - I stopped doing it because I found it quite sad that someone could find fault it posting stats to show what’s going on and now another one. Yes we know it’s shown elsewhere but why would someone have an issue with it being replicated on here for a bit of information. If you don’t like scroll past


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## D-S (Apr 1, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s twice now someone is being critisized just because they put up the current Covid stats - I stopped doing it because I found it quite sad that someone could find fault it posting stats to show what’s going on and now another one. Yes we know it’s shown elsewhere but why would someone have an issue with it being replicated on here for a bit of information. If you don’t like scroll past
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I only posted it as I thought when you did it I found it useful, so I thought I would carry on.
Today I posted it as it referenced the poor reporting of the numbers by the media, in this case Sky News.
Can’t please some people, so I will stop doing it it too, thanks though Liverpoolphil as I now follow the sites you posted from on Twitter and I, at least, benefitted from them.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 1, 2021)

I like the stats on here. Keep doing it please. Call me lazy but I am 100% guaranteed to look on this thread and see them (currently in all their glory) rather than look them up specifically on another website.


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## yandabrown (Apr 1, 2021)

D-S said:



			Sky reporting that numbers ‘continue to plateau‘ despite obvious facts and numbers to the contrary - do they not even read the stats?

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377641950631837696

Click to expand...

Last week they would have had a point, cases seemed to have leveled out at 6,000+ a day but they started going down again this week.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 1, 2021)

D-S said:



			Thanks for that, I only posted it as I thought when you did it I found it useful, so I thought I would carry on.
Today I posted it as it referenced the poor reporting of the numbers by the media, in this case Sky News.
Can’t please some people, so I will stop doing it it too, thanks though Liverpoolphil as I now follow the sites you posted from on Twitter and I, at least, benefitted from them.
		
Click to expand...

Please either you or @Liverpoolphil keep on posting them. Those that don't want to read them can scroll right on by.


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## SatchFan (Apr 1, 2021)

Weather forecast not looking great this Easter. A shame for anyone playing golf but on the other hand it might dampen down the mass moron get togethers which can only be a good thing.


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## backwoodsman (Apr 2, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Please either you or @Liverpoolphil keep on posting them. Those that don't want to read them can scroll right on by.
		
Click to expand...

I'd ask the opposite  - the links take ages to load and slow down the forum pages.  The info is so easily accessible elsewhere. And  replicated data (ie cut & paste) is part of the general malaise of the internet .


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 2, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I'd ask the opposite  - the links take ages to load and slow down the forum pages.  The info is so easily accessible elsewhere. And  replicated data (ie cut & paste) is part of the general malaise of the internet .
		
Click to expand...

That’s your opinion and that’s fine

I have no problem with folk posting official stats , doesn’t break any forum rules so they are free to crack on. 

It’s quick to move on past content you have no interest in 👍


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## SammmeBee (Apr 2, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I'd ask the opposite  - the links take ages to load and slow down the forum pages.  The info is so easily accessible elsewhere. And  replicated data (ie cut & paste) is part of the general malaise of the internet .
		
Click to expand...

Dial up?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 2, 2021)

https://www.cityam.com/no-more-lockdowns-uk-will-treat-covid-like-seasonal-flu-says-chris-whitty/


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## AmandaJR (Apr 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are directly feeling the pain and misery ...a very tough place to be with v limited job/work opportunities and lots of new unemployed looking for them.   For  some folks the pandemic has been no easy-life on furlough or getting grants - and so being able  to save lots of money and have a nice time...it's been very tough and difficult - and will continue to be so.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to come back to this post but it has irked. I was furloughed (easy life!), then returned to work under huge pressure and then made redundant. I'm currently walking the streets knocking on doors for the Census. It's not glamorous, it's not saving lots of money and having a nice time but it's a job. Just for 5 weeks but it's a job. They are out there if you look hard enough and take what's offered.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 2, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Sorry to come back to this post but it has irked. I was furloughed (easy life!), then returned to work under huge pressure and then made redundant. I'm currently walking the streets knocking on doors for the Census. It's not glamorous, it's not saving lots of money and having a nice time but it's a job. Just for 5 weeks but it's a job. They are out there if you look hard enough and take what's offered.
		
Click to expand...

There are unfortunately many people who will have gone through what you have. I have been fortunate so far, but the future looks uncertain. 

There are two ways to deal with the situation. As you have, by getting out there and finding another job to keep you going until something else comes along. 

Or, as many others are doing, moaning that life isn't fair whilst claiming UC. 

Out of interest, I just did a job search from my postcode on Indeed. There are 223 jobs advertised within 5 miles. I live in a rural area so would excpect more living near a large city. 

There is lots of work out there as long as you are prepared to do it.


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 2, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Sorry to come back to this post but it has irked. I was furloughed (easy life!), then returned to work under huge pressure and then made redundant. I'm currently walking the streets knocking on doors for the Census. It's not glamorous, it's not saving lots of money and having a nice time but it's a job. Just for 5 weeks but it's a job. They are out there if you look hard enough and take what's offered.
		
Click to expand...

Same happened to my cousin - made redundant - now doing census work for 5 or 6 weeks - got his name down to do exam supervision later this year. His wife is a nurse.
But I also know low-waged and un-waged people who have had a very tough time for a long time. Every person's plight is a case to be "considered" not "judged" in my view.
"Well done Amanda"  for your efforts to find work is something I can agree with.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 2, 2021)

Furlough is only great if you know your job is safe to go back to afters 

If you know the company just putting back unemployment then it's not good at all


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## drdel (Apr 2, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			That’s your opinion and that’s fine

I have no problem with folk posting official stats , doesn’t break any forum rules so they are free to crack on. 

It’s quick to move on past content you have no interest in 👍
		
Click to expand...

'Copy and  Paste' can infringe copyright.

Why not have a "Covid data" thread for those who don't read, llisten or watch broadcasts or search NHS / Gov.uk websites ?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 2, 2021)

drdel said:



			'Copy and  Paste' can infringe copyright.

Why not have a "Covid data" thread for those who don't read, llisten or watch broadcasts or search NHS / Gov.uk websites ?
		
Click to expand...

Not really. It's on a public format ie the internet .. noone is presenting data as their own ...

Or making profit


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Sorry to come back to this post but it has irked. I was furloughed (easy life!), then returned to work under huge pressure and then made redundant. I'm currently walking the streets knocking on doors for the Census. It's not glamorous, it's not saving lots of money and having a nice time but it's a job. Just for 5 weeks but it's a job. They are out there if you look hard enough and take what's offered.
		
Click to expand...

Well done Amanda, and good luck for the future. When I was between career orientated jobs, and contracts, in the early 90's I quite literally sorted plastic bottles in a recycling plant. It wasn't pleasant work but it kept money coming in. Not only that, even though eligible during the breaks in employment, I didn't claim 'the dole.' Yes, sometimes there's a need to fall back on the state for help but sometimes its an excuse.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Mod edit.
		
Click to expand...

Why don’t you put him on ignore ? It’s almost as if you are desperate to annoyed by him.  It would solve a lot of your issues


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2021)

drdel said:



			'Copy and  Paste' can infringe copyright.

Why not have a "Covid data" thread for those who don't read, llisten or watch broadcasts or search NHS / Gov.uk websites ?
		
Click to expand...

Copyright 😂😂😂

Seriously if the current Covid stats annoy you that much then just scroll on by. 

Why create more threads when this thread became the Covid thread.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378001791032385545


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## D-S (Apr 2, 2021)

Good numbers again today, although Wales data not included. Even Sky News can’t report this as a ‘plateau‘ can they? I’m sure the media will manage to chisel some bad news out of this though.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 2, 2021)

One stat I would like to see is the infection rate in those who have had first and second jabs

Ie the 3402 new cases above of which x had the first jab more than 3 weeks ago and x had the 2nd jab more than 3 weeks ago


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## pauljames87 (Apr 2, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			One stat I would like to see is the infection rate in those who have had first and second jabs

Ie the 3402 new cases above of which x had the first jab more than 3 weeks ago and x had the 2nd jab more than 3 weeks ago
		
Click to expand...

One thing I've noticed (lockdown or not) is the amount of people isolating now compared 

In first few months I knew a hand ful of people isolating 

In December I knew of 20 people 

We haven't had anyone isolate at work since January now I think ..


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			One stat I would like to see is the infection rate in those who have had first and second jabs

Ie the 3402 new cases above of which x had the first jab more than 3 weeks ago and x had the 2nd jab more than 3 weeks ago
		
Click to expand...

Someone posted about that last week in the Twitter thread - let me see if I can find , I believe it was very low


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## Hobbit (Apr 2, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Someone posted about that last week in the Twitter thread - let me see if I can find , I believe it was very low
		
Click to expand...

If the jab is reputed to be 95% effective, maybe the other 5% are those that it doesn’t work for...?


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are directly feeling the pain and misery ...a very tough place to be with v limited job/work opportunities and lots of new unemployed looking for them.   For  some folks the pandemic has been no easy-life on furlough or getting grants - and so being able  to save lots of money and have a nice time...it's been very tough and difficult - and will continue to be so.
		
Click to expand...

Thought you had just retired and was feeling extremely well off


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			If the jab is reputed to be 95% effective, maybe the other 5% are those that it doesn’t work for...?
		
Click to expand...

I think this guy was looking at when people where getting a positive Covid test compared to when they had the first vaccine 

I can’t find it at the moment but I’m sure it was 80 people getting a positive Covid test 3 weeks after their first vaccine


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## patricks148 (Apr 2, 2021)

just been past the Highland Rugby club near the canal, 4 campervans parked up for the night....


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## D-S (Apr 2, 2021)

As far as I have read (shame Ethan isn't here to corroborate or correct this as appropriate), those who have been jabbed and still manage to become infected are very unlikely to contract a severe version of Covid and also their transmission rate was very low as they had little 'viral load'.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378001791032385545

Click to expand...

You little tinker.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 2, 2021)

D-S said:



			As far as I have read (shame Ethan isn't here to corroborate or correct this as appropriate), those who have been jabbed and still manage to become infected are very unlikely to contract a severe version of Covid and also their transmission rate was very low as they had little 'viral load'.
		
Click to expand...

Also, there is the point that the time when they were infected was likely to have been soon after receiving the jab, before the antibodies had been created.
So, really, in those cases, it wasn't an instance of a vaccinated, protected person 
becoming infected.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			just been past the Highland Rugby club near the canal, 4 campervans parked up for the night.... 

Click to expand...

Don’t you have a dedicated phone line to the boys in blue.


----------



## Ethan (Apr 2, 2021)

D-S said:



			As far as I have read (shame Ethan isn't here to corroborate or correct this as appropriate), those who have been jabbed and still manage to become infected are very unlikely to contract a severe version of Covid and also their transmission rate was very low as they had little 'viral load'.
		
Click to expand...

Ethan agrees.


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## road2ruin (Apr 2, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			Weather forecast not looking great this Easter. A shame for anyone playing golf but on the other hand it might dampen down the mass moron get togethers which can only be a good thing.
		
Click to expand...

Although it’s already been proved that the ‘mass moron get togethers’ never did anything to the infection rate s outdoor transmission is negligible. It’s the indoor Easter meals etc amongst small numbers that’s do far more for the uptick in infections.


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## Old Skier (Apr 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Although it’s already been proved that the ‘mass moron get togethers’ never did anything to the infection rate s outdoor transmission is negligible. It’s the indoor Easter meals etc amongst small numbers that’s do far more for the uptick in infections.
		
Click to expand...

They might not be transmitting anything but here in Devon & Cornwall they are causing havoc with the Fire Brigade being called out nightly with fires around the dunes and out on the moors because of BBQs.


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## road2ruin (Apr 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			They might not be transmitting anything but here in Devon & Cornwall they are causing havoc with the Fire Brigade being called out nightly with fires around the dunes and out on the moors because of BBQs.
		
Click to expand...

Granted however that’s been the case in normal times I’d imagine. Always a few idiots.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why don’t you put him on ignore ? It’s almost as if you are desperate to annoyed by him.  It would solve a lot of your issues
		
Click to expand...

I don't have issues. I was only pointing out that there is work available if you really want it, as Amanda has shown us.  Can't see what was wrong with that.


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## patricks148 (Apr 3, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Don’t you have a dedicated phone line to the boys in blue.
		
Click to expand...

tried, waited on the phone for 20 mins, police Scoland must be busy last night, gave up in the end


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## Jimaroid (Apr 3, 2021)

There’s a few campervans popping up around here in Fife too but I think it’s a grey area now because from 2nd April it’s Stay Local not Stay At Home.

I can understand how people will interpret that as clearance to overnight locally.


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## patricks148 (Apr 3, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			There’s a few campervans popping up around here in Fife too but I think it’s a grey area now because from 2nd April it’s Stay Local not Stay At Home.

I can understand how people will interpret that as clearance to overnight locally.
		
Click to expand...

maybe, but would you spend the night in a car park if you were local??


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## Jimaroid (Apr 3, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			maybe, but would you spend the night in a car park if you were local??
		
Click to expand...

I’d consider anything that’ll get me away from the house and I suspect I’m not alone. I’ve camped in the garden a couple of times over winter and I was considering sleeping on the beach last night but I got a tee time this morning. 🙃


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## SatchFan (Apr 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Although it’s already been proved that the ‘mass moron get togethers’ never did anything to the infection rate s outdoor transmission is negligible. It’s the indoor Easter meals etc amongst small numbers that’s do far more for the uptick in infections.
		
Click to expand...

You're right. I should have included large dysfunctional families in the mass moron category.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 3, 2021)

http://news.sky.com/story/police-sh...-and-threaten-worshippers-with-fines-12264608

I would say unbelievable but sadly its not anymore. Why do people think religion gives them special dispensation to flout the rules?🙄


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## patricks148 (Apr 3, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I’d consider anything that’ll get me away from the house and I suspect I’m not alone. I’ve camped in the garden a couple of times over winter and I was considering sleeping on the beach last night but I got a tee time this morning. 🙃
		
Click to expand...

sleeping on the beach is one thing, rocking up in a council car park is another. None of the camp sites are open so no where for any of these CV to empty the Toilets, so i suspect it will be like last year, people dumping it in laybys and car parks.


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## spongebob59 (Apr 3, 2021)

S



patricks148 said:



			sleeping on the beach is one thing, rocking up in a council car park is another. None of the camp sites are open so no where for any of these CV to empty the Toilets, so i suspect it will be like last year, people dumping it in laybys and car parks.
		
Click to expand...

There was a group of travellers who have been camped in one of the council car parks by the sea all lockdown and too everyone amazement they left in the week and left the place spotless.


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## patricks148 (Apr 3, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			S

There was a group of travellers who have been camped in one of the council car parks by the sea all lockdown and too everyone amazement they left in the week and left the place spotless.
		
Click to expand...

these are not travelers they are campervaners. saw their dirtywork first hand last year, the old bridgekeepers cottage on the canal has a layby behind it, had two lots dumped in last year and the smimming pool car park and that was when the two camping sites close by were open


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378362666264186886


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## D-S (Apr 3, 2021)

Back to early September levels, when I was thinking about booking winter holidays and we were away on golf trips - seems a lifetime ago.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378363873422626816


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Sorry to come back to this post but it has irked. I was furloughed (easy life!), then returned to work under huge pressure and then made redundant. I'm currently walking the streets knocking on doors for the Census. It's not glamorous, it's not saving lots of money and having a nice time but it's a job. Just for 5 weeks but it's a job. They are out there if you look hard enough and take what's offered.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry you were irked. My lad also applied for a census collector job.  He did it last census in a difficult area and got a lot of hassle but still applied this time and was hopeful.  Didn’t even get an interview. Tough.  Adds it to the pile of job application failures and ploughs on.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry you were irked. My lad also applied for a census collector job.  He did it last census in a difficult area and got a lot of hassle but still applied this time and was hopeful.  Didn’t even get an interview. Tough.  Adds it to the pile of job application failures and ploughs on.
		
Click to expand...

That's a shame for him. In this area they didn't get enough applicants at first. Wasn't an interview as such rather than an online confirmation of right to work and that was it. He could try again for the next ones that start later this month. It is frustrating work - good on him for trying for it again!


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## D-S (Apr 4, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378740921295122441


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2021)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378740921295122441

Click to expand...

Not doubting the actual numbers but here's a thought. If they tested, say, 200,000 people last week and only tested 100,000 this week the ratio of positives would be higher this week although the number of actual positives would be less.

Sometimes the detail behind the numbers could give a clearer picture. Not saying that's what's happened here, just that its possible to paint a better picture when they reality could be very different.


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## D-S (Apr 4, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Not doubting the actual numbers but here's a thought. If they tested, say, 200,000 people last week and only tested 100,000 this week the ratio of positives would be higher this week although the number of actual positives would be less.

Sometimes the detail behind the numbers could give a clearer picture. Not saying that's what's happened here, just that its possible to paint a better picture when they reality could be very different.
		
Click to expand...

The government data dashboard also gives number of tests per day, it’s averaging mow just below a million per day. It has progressively been increasing since September last year when it was around 200,000 per day - through January and February it was around the 500,000 per day.


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## D-S (Apr 4, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1378745453597102081


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 5, 2021)

Had my second Pfizer jab on Saturday afternoon. No problems after first jab, but this time I felt like crap all Sunday - headache, aching limbs and overall tiredness. Slept for a full 8 hours and a lot better today. Wednesday will be third game and first comp with returned score.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			That's a shame for him. In this area they didn't get enough applicants at first. Wasn't an interview as such rather than an online confirmation of right to work and that was it. He could try again for the next ones that start later this month. It is frustrating work - good on him for trying for it again!
		
Click to expand...

It is...and some of the roads he did he had to have an escort...doubling up...anyway...


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## AmandaJR (Apr 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is...and some of the roads he did he had to have an escort...doubling up...anyway...
		
Click to expand...

Well my allocation on Saturday had me feeling quite uneasy and not entirely safe. I've told them if that's my allocation moving forwards then I'm not prepared to do it. I was told my patch would be more rural and wandering round Huntingdon centre and its rather dodgy estates is not what I signed up for.


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## NearHull (Apr 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Well my allocation on Saturday had me feeling quite uneasy and not entirely safe. I've told them if that's my allocation moving forwards then I'm not prepared to do it. I was told my patch would be more rural and wandering round Huntingdon centre and its rather dodgy estates is not what I signed up for.
		
Click to expand...

Oxmoor?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 5, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Oxmoor?
		
Click to expand...

Bit of that. Bit of town centre and an area that looked ok but did not feel at all comfortable walking around never mind leaving my car!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379087188269355012


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## D-S (Apr 5, 2021)

Not bad numbers considering they are 48 hours worth of data for Wales and NI.


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2021)

Back to work next Monday then.....


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2021)

Only a week until I can get a haircut. Very happy as not had one since early October.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 5, 2021)

Hairdresser due on the 14th - happy days!


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## GB72 (Apr 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Hairdresser due on the 14th - happy days!
		
Click to expand...

Wife was called yesterday and was offered 12th but could not make it as she has her nails booked in. Booked for the Saturday and very happy


----------



## SaintHacker (Apr 6, 2021)

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...-admissions-to-surge-scientists-warn-12267195

A summer surge as bad as last January? Are these people for real? So last summer, with no vaccine and only a limited knowledge of the virus it virtually died out of its own accord ,yet this year we could be back to square one ,even with a population virtually completely vaccinated. Do they actually want us locked in our homes for ever and the country financially ruined? 
It seems to me SAGE have been way off with every prediction they have made so far, I've lost any confidence in what they say. Or is it the media twisting their words to suit their own doom mongering agenda?


----------



## RichA (Apr 6, 2021)

The latter. Journalist asks 20 questions and probably picks the answer to the worst case scenario final leading question as the headline.


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Apr 6, 2021)

I am getting to the point of being sick of all the restrictions being threatened for months even years to come.  It seems to me as if every politician is scared witless of the obvious public inquiry that will come and try to blame everyone and anyone for everything that has happened.   So they want to keep us all pretty much locked up (or down) for as long as they can and the hell with the cost.   All the advisors are on their full salaries and it hasn't bothered them at all.


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## D-S (Apr 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...-admissions-to-surge-scientists-warn-12267195

A summer surge as bad as last January? Are these people for real? So last summer, with no vaccine and only a limited knowledge of the virus it virtually died out of its own accord ,yet this year we could be back to square one ,even with a population virtually completely vaccinated. Do they actually want us locked in our homes for ever and the country financially ruined?
It seems to me SAGE have been way off with every prediction they have made so far, I've lost any confidence in what they say. Or is it the media twisting their words to suit their own doom mongering agenda?
		
Click to expand...

As usual the word ‘could’ gets a lot of airing in such articles - the ‘preliminary’ nature and ‘pessimistic assumptions’ of the report aren’t as headline grabbing.
The earth ‘could’ be hit by a massive meteorite is my ‘preliminary’ guess and that is a ‘pessimistic assumption’.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I am getting to the point of being sick of all the restrictions being threatened *for months even years to come*.
		
Click to expand...

I thought all restrictions are being lifted in June?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I thought all restrictions are being lifted in June?
		
Click to expand...

Given what we hear and what we don’t - I wouldn’t count on it...certainly not ALL restrictions if you count wearing a mask and social distancing as ‘restrictions’.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given what we hear and what we don’t - I wouldn’t count on it...certainly not ALL restrictions if you count wearing a mask and social distancing as ‘restrictions’.
		
Click to expand...

PS was concerned about the restrictions and being in lock down for months or years to come.




Pathetic Shark said:



			So they want to keep us all pretty much locked up (or down) for as long as they can and the hell with the cost.
		
Click to expand...

The roadmap suggests otherwise 

*Step 4 - not before 21 June*
*Social contact*
By Step 4 which will take place no earlier than 21 June, the government hopes to be in a position to *remove all legal limits on social contact.*

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ring-2021-summary#step-4---not-before-21-june


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...-admissions-to-surge-scientists-warn-12267195

A summer surge as bad as last January? Are these people for real? So last summer, with no vaccine and only a limited knowledge of the virus it virtually died out of its own accord ,yet this year we could be back to square one ,even with a population virtually completely vaccinated. Do they actually want us locked in our homes for ever and the country financially ruined?
It seems to me SAGE have been way off with every prediction they have made so far, I've lost any confidence in what they say. Or is it the media twisting their words to suit their own doom mongering agenda?
		
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If I remember correctly, last summer there were some restrictions in terms of indoor gatherings, I.e cinemas, theatres ( though pubs were open), and we have learned that the virus spreads easiest indoors. A lot , lot more than outdoors.
Like you, I think that there shouldn't be a massive increase in infections come summer, but there will be some!
What really irks is that it could be a lot less, we could knock this down to virtually flu levels, *if* the anti vaxxers came to their senses.
However, whilst a significant number refuse to be vaccinated, the spread potential is there.
That is why, I believe, there is a push for vaccine passports. In the hope that if those  "missing out", want in, then they will be persuaded to have the vaccine.
But, in the meantime, it does create a two tier situation until all have been offered vaccinations.
Then again, there is the argument that, should some (most, all?) businesses  have to wait for that situation before being kick started back to viability?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given what we hear and what we don’t - I wouldn’t count on it...certainly not ALL restrictions if you count wearing a mask and social distancing as ‘restrictions’.
		
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How can SD and wearing a mask work in cinemas and theatres, I.e large indoor gatherings in relative confined spaces?
Those measures won't work there, and so, at some time, we will have to go back to "normal" ( and keep our fingers crossed😀)


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 6, 2021)

I accept things are fluid and the way the press use phrases like "but you said back in January...." etc etc.
But Boris last night was pretty much laying out a potential plan to keep mask wearing in place indefinitely.   
Fine, if some people want to do that - let them.  The sort of people who spend 10 minutes cleaning their trolleys before going into Tescos.    
But I for one am sick of it.  I can use common sense.


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## RichA (Apr 6, 2021)

100,000 Covid deaths in 12 months. Mask wearing and social distancing doesn't seem like that big of a deal if it allows us to return to some sense of normality this year. It's not nice but it's only a shift in culture. 
For the 2500-3000 road deaths per year, we are mandated to wear seat belts in cars and crash helmets on motorbikes.
I know it's apples and oranges, but back in the 70s and 80s, half the population considered that to be a huge imposition on their personal freedoms.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What really irks is that it could be a lot less, we could knock this down to virtually flu levels, *if* the anti vaxxers came to their senses.
However, whilst a significant number refuse to be vaccinated, the spread potential is there.
That is why, I believe, there is a push for vaccine passports. In the hope that if those  "missing out", want in, then they will be persuaded to have the vaccine.
		
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Totally agree - you don't want the vaccine?  Fine -  stay at home - no going to pubs, cinemas, foreign trips etc.  Your choice -  you can have days out listening to morons like Corbyn's brother in London.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			PS was concerned about the restrictions and being in lock down for months or years to come.




The roadmap suggests otherwise 

*Step 4 - not before 21 June*
*Social contact*
By Step 4 which will take place no earlier than 21 June, the government hopes to be in a position to *remove all legal limits on social contact.*

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ring-2021-summary#step-4---not-before-21-june

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Yes however the key is not before June
It could be delayed until say sept with some bits lifted in June but not the full limit 

That's why it's not before and not by this date


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I accept things are fluid and the way the press use phrases like "but you said back in January...." etc etc.
But Boris last night was pretty much laying out a potential plan to keep mask wearing in place indefinitely.  
Fine, if some people want to do that - let them.  The sort of people who spend 10 minutes cleaning their trolleys before going into Tescos.   
But I for one am sick of it.  I can use common sense.
		
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Are you sick of the 100,000 plus people who have lost their life because of the virus ? What about the affects on their families ? 

Is wearing a mask and cleaning a trolley that much of a hardship to try and at the very least keep those infections down 

It’s people that were “sick of it” who ignored social distancing and wearing of masks the first time.

It must be very hard for you to think of others beyond just yourself but that person who cleans that trolley for ten mins is doing it for their safety and the safety of others - they clearly think about it will affect them


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## Hobbit (Apr 6, 2021)

A disappointing Easter in terms of discipline and enforcement here in southern Spain. After a hard year of enforcement, any sign of it has disappeared over Easter. The current rule for how many at a table indoors in a restaurant is 4, 6 outside. 15 at one table and 12 at another. Live music has been authorised but not the dancing - chaos. Easter services went ahead with social distancing in the churches but once outside the door it was like any other Easter.

Locally, the numbers are exceptionally good, although each village seems to get a blip for a few weeks then back down but after the madness of Easter, supplemented with an influx of people that have obviously crossed regional borders, I expect the next 8 weeks will be tough.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It could be delayed until say sept with some bits lifted in June but not the full limit
		
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It might be delayed, there again, it might not be.

I know, things may change but...

_Johnson’s roadmap does not give a date on when face masks may be downgraded from mandatory, but it is clear he is hoping that *99 per cent – if not all – restrictions can be lifted by 21 June.*_

I'm the optimist


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you sick of the 100,000 plus people who have lost their life because of the virus ? What about the affects on their families ?

Is wearing a mask and cleaning a trolley that much of a hardship to try and at the very least keep those infections down

It’s people that were “sick of it” who ignored social distancing and wearing of masks the first time.

It must be very hard for you to think of others beyond just yourself but that person who cleans that trolley for ten mins is doing it for their safety and the safety of others - they clearly think about it will affect them
		
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Then don't go out anywhere - stay at home and be safe.  We cannot carry on exactly the way we are for too much longer for all the many reasons that have been documented.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you sick of the 100,000 plus people who have lost their life because of the virus ? What about the affects on their families ? 

Is wearing a mask and cleaning a trolley that much of a hardship to try and at the very least keep those infections down 

It’s people that were “sick of it” who ignored social distancing and wearing of masks the first time.

It must be very hard for you to think of others beyond just yourself but that person who cleans that trolley for ten mins is doing it for their safety and the safety of others - they clearly think about it will affect them
		
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I agree with this statement. I'm 50% jabbed almost fully jabbed (next month) yet I have no problem wearing a mask In a shop and cleaning my trolly 


Basically not being a dirty so and so.


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## bobmac (Apr 6, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



*We cannot carry on exactly the way we are for too much longer* for all the many reasons that have been documented.
		
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No-one is asking you too 
6 days until April 12th and step 2
Step 3 next month 
Step 4 the month after.

All the restrictions are not going to be in place for months and years to come


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No-one is asking you too
6 days until April 12th and step 2
Step 3 next month
Step 4 the month after.

All the restrictions are not going to be in place for months and years to come
		
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That is what I hope for.  But last night's press conference certainly indicated something different.


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## GB72 (Apr 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you sick of the 100,000 plus people who have lost their life because of the virus ? What about the affects on their families ?

Is wearing a mask and cleaning a trolley that much of a hardship to try and at the very least keep those infections down

It’s people that were “sick of it” who ignored social distancing and wearing of masks the first time.

It must be very hard for you to think of others beyond just yourself but that person who cleans that trolley for ten mins is doing it for their safety and the safety of others - they clearly think about it will affect them
		
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Really, it has to be that black and white. Not allowed to be fed up with restrictions without be blasé about those who have sadly lost their lives. If you are sick of it then you ignored the rules first time (I am sick of it and I obeyed the rules every time). Just because you are fed up with it does not mean you are just going to break the rules and have no consideration for others. Don't forget, people have been locked down for varying amounts of time. For me it has been pretty much 6 months now, people in Leicester have barely been off lockdown in a year, others only saw the real restrictions kick in at the beginning of January. 

Believe it or not, you can be fed up with the rules and sick of he whole situation without being any of the things that you mention. It is that sort of one sided, judgmental, argumentative approach that causes no end of problems.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No-one is asking you too
6 days until April 12th and step 2
Step 3 next month
Step 4 the month after.

All the restrictions are not going to be in place for months and years to come
		
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Pathetic Shark said:



			That is what I hope for.  But last night's press conference certainly indicated something different.
		
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It’s been said a number of times that masks and some levels of social distancing will be in place for a while yet and even past the June timeline 

The June date was removing most of the restrictions 

Masks will be in place in a number of events and places - especially in confided spaces in large numbers


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Really, it has to be that black and white. Not allowed to be fed up with restrictions without be blasé about those who have sadly lost their lives. If you are sick of it then you ignored the rules first time (I am sick of it and I obeyed the rules every time). Just because you are fed up with it does not mean you are just going to break the rules and have no consideration for others. Don't forget, people have been locked down for varying amounts of time. For me it has been pretty much 6 months now, people in Leicester have barely been off lockdown in a year, others only saw the real restrictions kick in at the beginning of January.

Believe it or not, you can be fed up with the rules and sick of he whole situation without being any of the things that you mention. It is that sort of one sided, judgmental, argumentative approach that causes no end of problems.
		
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Yes maybe it’s time to be that black and white 

But also a times to understand people who are struggling mentally with the restrictions and those that just don’t like them. And when someone is complaining about someone cleaning a trolley I see it being easy to see which bracket they fall in 

When it comes to June and people are going to be free from many restrictions then it’s going to be very hard for someone to complain about just having to wear a mask or stand two meters away from someone or have to wait in a queue to ensure that the shops aren’t rammed. 

There isn’t going to be magic switch come June where everything will be back to normal. 

People will be asked to wear masks , clean/sanitise hands on entry - virus won’t just disappear and lives will still be lost 

Hopefully the past 12 months will give people a bit more personal responsibility for hygiene as well


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## RichA (Apr 6, 2021)

Someone at my work suggested booking Flight Club (bar with darts booths) for an evening in June. Half the people who have been complaining about the pubs being shut conceded that they aren't comfortable being back in a crowded pub quite so soon as June. Feels like some folks just moan about the restrictions because it's the done thing at the moment. 
I'm sure we'll all make our own minds up when we're ready to accept the freedoms, as they come.
My dad tells me that for 5 years, during the 1940s, everyone carried a mask around in a cardboard box over their shoulder. Nobody complained because it would be considered unpatriotic and small-minded.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			Someone at my work suggested booking Flight Club (bar with darts booths) for an evening in June. Half the people who have been complaining about the pubs being shut conceded that they aren't comfortable being back in a crowded pub quite so soon as June. Feels like some folks just moan about the restrictions because it's the done thing at the moment.
I'm sure we'll all make our own minds up when we're ready to accept the freedoms, as they come.
My dad tells me that for 5 years, during the 1940s, everyone carried a mask around in a cardboard box over their shoulder. *Nobody complained because it would be considered unpatriotic and small-minded*.
		
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To be fair, they may well have moaned inwardly or to a neighbour but that is easily forgotten now, all these years later. The advent of social media and 24 hr news gives so many ways for gripes to be put out there and the moans can seem magnified. I suspect most people now are not complaining or are only having a minor moan just to let off a bit of steam.


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## oxymoron (Apr 6, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes maybe it’s time to be that black and white

But also a times to understand* people who are struggling mentally* with the restrictions and those that just don’t like them. And when someone is complaining about someone cleaning a trolley *I see it being easy to see which bracket they fall in*

When it comes to June and people are going to be free from many restrictions then it’s going to be very hard for someone to complain about just having to wear a mask or stand two meters away from someone or have to wait in a queue to ensure that the shops aren’t rammed.

There isn’t going to be magic switch come June where everything will be back to normal.

People will be asked to wear masks , clean/sanitise hands on entry - virus won’t just disappear and lives will still be lost

Hopefully the past 12 months will give people a bit more personal responsibility for hygiene as well
		
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GB72 has told of his mental anguish over the last few weeks but still persevered, so to me he could fall in to your first bold bit .I do not think just because someone voices their upset you cannot truly see ,
 as you put it  "which bracket they fall in ".
As LT says is it someone letting off steam ? That is preferable to storing all the despair and falling deeper in to mental issues .
We need to keep our eyes open and support each other not try to categorize someone just because they see things a bit different to others.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2021)

oxymoron said:



			GB72 has told of his mental anguish over the last few weeks but still persevered, so to me he could fall in to your first bold bit .I do not think just because someone voices their upset you cannot truly see ,
as you put it  "which bracket they fall in ".
As LT says is it someone letting off steam ? That is preferable to storing all the despair and falling deeper in to mental issues .
We need to keep our eyes open and support each other not try to categorize someone just because they see things a bit different to others.
		
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As I said there is a difference between someone like GB72 who has struggled and as voiced that - judgement wasn’t being made towards people like GB72 

It was more towards the people who just feel that it’s all an inconvenience for them to carry on their normal life.

The whole 12 plus months has shown a lot about our society 

As for today numbers 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379449576034295808


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## D-S (Apr 6, 2021)

They have often said that hospital admissions is a key metric in decisions re lockdown easing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1379463059031396358


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## pauljames87 (Apr 6, 2021)

Well the wife's nans managed to avoid covid throughout .. wife has avoided her but since she had her jab few months ago (phizer) she not been right 

In hospital their saying possible brain damage caused by the jab. It's very very very very rare but what a kick


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## SocketRocket (Apr 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Well the wife's nans managed to avoid covid throughout .. wife has avoided her but since she had her jab few months ago (phizer) she not been right

In hospital their saying possible brain damage caused by the jab. It's very very very very rare but what a kick
		
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Wow! That's a hell of a suggestion.


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## larmen (Apr 6, 2021)

A question about the AZ blood clods side effect,

if a vaccine which is a viral vector can cause a blood clot, can the actual virus cause one as well? Or is there something else in the vaccine which causes the effects, if it causes one at all?


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## backwoodsman (Apr 7, 2021)

larmen said:



			A question about the AZ blood clods side effect,

if a vaccine which is a viral vector can cause a blood clot, can the actual virus cause one as well? Or is there something else in the vaccine which causes the effects, if it causes one at all?
		
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It's to early to ask that question as (as far as I know) it's not known that the vaccine does actually cause the blood clots - just that some people who've had the vaccine have also had clots. There's no proven causal relationship yet.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Wow! That's a hell of a suggestion.
		
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She hasn't been well since Jab 1

Has bearly been out of bed

Had a few falls 

Slurring her words, forgets things


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

larmen said:



			A question about the AZ blood clods side effect,

if a vaccine which is a viral vector can cause a blood clot, can the actual virus cause one as well? Or is there something else in the vaccine which causes the effects, if it causes one at all?
		
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The viral vector was suspected from the start of carrying a risk of stimulating an immune reaction of the wrong sort, reducing efficacy. This adverse event appears to be associated with an immune reaction to platelets induced by the vaccine, causing platelet aggregation. It is quite hard to prove definitively that this is caused by the vaccine, but I think there is strong evidence to show that it is. The antibody has been identified, the affected population is a little unusual compared to the normally affected population and the time course fits.It caused an apparently paradoxical situation, where lately clots occur in one part of the body and low platelets giving a risk of bleeding elsewhere. This is because so many platelets are used up in the car crash thrombus. 

There has been a great deal of stuff in the media, mostly by people who have never had to deal with an emerging safety issue for a new medicine. The issue for the regulators is not just how many of these Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis cases there are, although that is certainly one issue. The issue is whether this is part of a wider thrombo-embolic phenomenon and whether there is a pile of myocardial infections, stroke and renal failures due to the same event. These events are less likely to be singled out as concerning and suspicious, but could add up to a lot more cases than the CVSTs. Adverse event reporting rates are notoriously unreliable, so you can't just rely on the number of cases reported, you have to actually go out and look for the true numbers. Once you have an idea about that number, you can better judge the benefit-risk of the vaccine.

I said at the start of this that the regulatory decision to pause vaccine while they assess the event was reasonable, and was not political, and I think the MHRA wants to do the same but is being leant on not to do so. The supply shortages of AZ may have come at a good time.

On the question, Covid certainly causes blood clots due to an inflammatory effect on blood vessels. That is a different mechanism than the one suspected for the AZ vaccine and occurs mainly in people who have a protracted course of Covid. The Pfizer and Moderna vax would not be expected to cause this effect.

It is likely that the benefit-risk still strongly favours pressing on with the vaccine. If you are a youngish woman, it is probably preferable and prudent to receive an mRNA vax, if available. If one is not available, better to take the AZ than wait.


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Well the wife's nans managed to avoid covid throughout .. wife has avoided her but since she had her jab few months ago (phizer) she not been right

In hospital their saying possible brain damage caused by the jab. It's very very very very rare but what a kick
		
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What exactly did they say the adverse event was?. Brain damage is a very broad and non-specific term.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			What exactly did they say the adverse event was?. Brain damage is a very broad and non-specific term.
		
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Tell you the truth Ethan I'm not entirely sure, I'm not fully in the loop, my mother in law is having to deal with it so I get snippets from the wife but I'm working so it's very few and far between 

First was suspected broken hip, turns out badly bruised (from the fall)

Then suspected bad water infection causing the memory loss 

Now it's suspected brain damage from her first jab..

Tbh it's very hard for one to keep up and two hard full stop because of covid nobody can go in so the mother in law is dealing for it remotely. And because the grandmother isn't totally with it she said her next of kin was her son who does nothing for them so we had to fight to get them to talk to the mother in law as out the 4 kids she's the one that does everything 

I'm just on the back bench doing whatever asked


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Tell you the truth Ethan I'm not entirely sure, I'm not fully in the loop, my mother in law is having to deal with it so I get snippets from the wife but I'm working so it's very few and far between

First was suspected broken hip, turns out badly bruised (from the fall)

Then suspected bad water infection causing the memory loss

Now it's suspected brain damage from her first jab..

Tbh it's very hard for one to keep up and two hard full stop because of covid nobody can go in so the mother in law is dealing for it remotely. And because the grandmother isn't totally with it she said her next of kin was her son who does nothing for them so we had to fight to get them to talk to the mother in law as out the 4 kids she's the one that does everything

I'm just on the back bench doing whatever asked
		
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I suspect it has nothing to do with the vax. If the hospital suspects otherwise they should report it as such, though, with whatever evidence supports their view. The Pfizer vax has very little in it that could cause brain damage unless the immune response itself caused a reaction.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I suspect it has nothing to do with the vax. If the hospital suspects otherwise they should report it as such, though, with whatever evidence supports their view. The Pfizer vax has very little in it that could cause brain damage unless the immune response itself caused a reaction.
		
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Since she had jab one she had full blown covid symtons for about a month 

Even tho only time she has left the house since covid was for the jab 

Not saying it is the jab 100% but that's what the drs as suspecting 

Maybe what you say, her reaction to it caused it rather than the jab itself


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Since she had jab one she had full blown covid symtons for about a month

Even tho only time she has left the house since covid was for the jab

Not saying it is the jab 100% but that's what the drs as suspecting

Maybe what you say, her reaction to it caused it rather than the jab itself
		
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That's the thing, the jab doesn't give full blown Covid symptoms for a month. I hope they have reported it.


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Tell you the truth Ethan I'm not entirely sure, I'm not fully in the loop, my mother in law is having to deal with it so I get snippets from the wife but I'm working so it's very few and far between 

First was suspected broken hip, turns out badly bruised (from the fall)

Then suspected bad water infection causing the memory loss 

Now it's suspected brain damage from her first jab..

Tbh it's very hard for one to keep up and two hard full stop because of covid nobody can go in so the mother in law is dealing for it remotely. And because the grandmother isn't totally with it she said her next of kin was her son who does nothing for them so we had to fight to get them to talk to the mother in law as out the 4 kids she's the one that does everything 

I'm just on the back bench doing whatever asked
		
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I feel for your family. It sounds awful and familiar, from pre-covid times with my mother.
Elderly female, falls, slurred speech, confusion, uti. I'd be pushing the hospital for an MRI and a discreet dementia assessment. It's a horrible thing to have to deal with, but easier with the correct diagnosis and the support that follows - financial and medical.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			I feel for your family. It sounds awful and familiar, from pre-covid times with my mother.
Elderly female, falls, slurred speech, confusion, uti. I'd be pushing the hospital for an MRI and a discreet dementia assessment. It's a horrible thing to have to deal with, but easier with the correct diagnosis and the support that follows - financial and medical.
		
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She went for MRI yesterday I dunno the result or such yet

It's not the best times for the wife for sure. She very close to her nan aswell


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

More evidence of the effects of long Covid, increases in organ damage and post-discharge deaths among Covid survivors.

BMJ article


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

Everything you need to know about the Moderna jab:

Its very much like the Pfizer one. The end.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 7, 2021)

Press conference this afternoon re the AZ jab, hopefuly they're not going to stop it but nothing would surprise me


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

18,000,000 jabbed with AZ since January.
7 "suspected" related deaths.
By way of perspective, statistically, you would expect about 140,000 UK citizens to have died in the last 3 months anyway - 600 in road traffic collisions alone. Factor in that those of us jabbed so far are already in the "more likely to die" category and the risk seems statistically irrelevant.


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## GB72 (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			18,000,000 jabbed with AZ since January.
7 "suspected" related deaths.
By way of perspective, statistically, you would expect about 140,000 UK citizens to have died in the last 3 months anyway - 600 in road traffic collisions alone. Factor in that those of us jabbed so far are already in the "more likely to die" category and the risk seems statistically irrelevant.
		
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I guess that you look at the risk attributed to the vaccine with the risk associated with covid. If you are in the young and at low risk of serious covid, there could be a benefit of waiting for an alternative jab. If you are in the higher risk groups, the risk associated with the jab is far outweighed by the benefit of covid protection.


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			18,000,000 jabbed with AZ since January.
7 "suspected" related deaths.
By way of perspective, statistically, you would expect about 140,000 UK citizens to have died in the last 3 months anyway - 600 in road traffic collisions alone. Factor in that those of us jabbed so far are already in the "more likely to die" category and the risk seems statistically irrelevant.
		
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Not that simple. The proper assessment of risk needs to be a bit more nuanced than that. The risk window appears to be younger females, so the denominator should be the same. There were 30 cases considered related. The risk of Covid in the affected age group is a lot lower than most of the deaths which have occurred, and most of the jabs were in age groups not apparently affected, so the benefit-risk equation may be rather different. That age group has less personal benefit from vaccination.

Also, we need to understand if the CVST is the only specific risk. I think that is rather unlikely for an adverse event which causes platelet aggregation with resulting platelet depletion elsewhere in the systemic circulation.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			More evidence of the effects of long Covid, increases in organ damage and post-discharge deaths among Covid survivors.

BMJ article

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Ethan said:



			Not that simple. The proper assessment of risk needs to be a bit more nuanced than that. The risk window appears to be younger females, so the denominator should be the same. There were 30 cases considered related. The risk of Covid in the affected age group is a lot lower than most of the deaths which have occurred, and most of the jabs were in age groups not apparently affected, so the benefit-risk equation may be rather different. That age group has less personal benefit from vaccination.

Also, we need to understand if the CVST is the only specific risk. I think that is rather unlikely for an adverse event which causes platelet aggregation with resulting platelet depletion elsewhere in the systemic circulation.
		
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If they suddenly suspended it what would that mean for second doses?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			If they suddenly suspended it what would that mean for second doses?
		
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Good question! I've been pro vaccine all the way but am starting to get a little nervous about having the 2nd AZ jab. I may not quite be in the young category but I am female!!


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not that simple. The proper assessment of risk needs to be a bit more nuanced than that. The risk window appears to be younger females, so the denominator should be the same. There were 30 cases considered related. The risk of Covid in the affected age group is a lot lower than most of the deaths which have occurred, and most of the jabs were in age groups not apparently affected, so the benefit-risk equation may be rather different. That age group has less personal benefit from vaccination.

Also, we need to understand if the CVST is the only specific risk. I think that is rather unlikely for an adverse event which causes platelet aggregation with resulting platelet depletion elsewhere in the systemic circulation.
		
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I'm not suggesting it's simple. I'm simply suggesting that perspective is important and that for the general population the AZ jab seems to be safer than driving to the shops.
Suggesting that it is unsafe and scaremongering will prevent people taking up their jabs and is likely to result in more Covid deaths. 
Obviously, continued research is needed and I know it lacks nuance, but the 7 deaths that may have been caused by the jab is quite a lot lower than 126,000 that have definitely been caused by Covid.


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## SatchFan (Apr 7, 2021)

I'm old and male with one AZ jab inside me. A few weeks before my second but if I was offered it tomorrow I'd be there like a shot.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			18,000,000 jabbed with AZ since January.
7 "suspected" related deaths.
By way of perspective, statistically, you would expect about 140,000 UK citizens to have died in the last 3 months anyway - 600 in road traffic collisions alone. Factor in that those of us jabbed so far are already in the "more likely to die" category and the risk seems statistically irrelevant.
		
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Coming soon to a daytime TV channel ...  "did you have the AZ vaccine?   Did you have side effects?   You can sue for compensation.  No win no fee - call us now"


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## GB72 (Apr 7, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I'm old and male with one AZ jab inside me. A few weeks before my second but if I was offered it tomorrow I'd be there like a shot.
		
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Pretty much the same (not that old yet though). Really do not want to go through covid and so I will take my second shot as soon as I can (June at the moment but guess it could move up if they end up aiming the AZ vaccines towards second shots and using another one of the younger age groups)


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			I'm not suggesting it's simple. I'm simply suggesting that perspective is important and that for the general population the AZ jab seems to be safer than driving to the shops.
Suggesting that it is unsafe and scaremongering will prevent people taking up their jabs and is likely to result in more Covid deaths.
Obviously, continued research is needed and I know it lacks nuance, but the 7 deaths that may have been caused by the jab is quite a lot lower than 126,000 that have definitely been caused by Covid.
		
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Yes, but I think what Ethan is saying is that the risk calculation is not as simple as , for instance, you have portrayed in your last paragraph.
Being silly for a moment, in order to illustrate,
Supposing all 7 deaths had occurred in females aged 30 -35, all redheads, all
born in December.
Would you recommend your wife to have the jab if she was 32, and a redhead whose birthday was in December?😀😀

Edit.. Maybe  yes, if the risk from covid was high (which it isn't at that age), and there was no other vaccine available.
But if there was an alternative vaccine available, you would have her take that and eliminate the risk, surely.?
That is what is being suggested as preferable thing to do.
No one is suggesting that no AZ vaccine should be taken .


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## pauljames87 (Apr 7, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Good question! I've been pro vaccine all the way but am starting to get a little nervous about having the 2nd AZ jab. I may not quite be in the young category but I am female!!
		
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I'm 34 . 7th may second one 

I'll take the risk tho


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2021)

Good news 
Livingston's Valneva vaccine shows 'strong immune response' - BBC News


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			I'm not suggesting it's simple. I'm simply suggesting that perspective is important and that for the general population the AZ jab seems to be safer than driving to the shops.
Suggesting that it is unsafe and scaremongering will prevent people taking up their jabs and is likely to result in more Covid deaths.
Obviously, continued research is needed and I know it lacks nuance, but the 7 deaths that may have been caused by the jab is quite a lot lower than 126,000 that have definitely been caused by Covid.
		
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It is not just 7 deaths (actually 19 deaths according to the MHRA CEO). There have been more deaths and a lot more non-fatal cases besides, now including also cases of splanchnic vein thrombosis (the same problem in the abdominal vasculature). Prudent pharmacovigilance is not scaremongering. It is, to use your rather misplaced analogy, checking that the car is in good enough working order to get you to the shops. Blithe false reassurance is dangerous too. You may remember that not so long ago, these events were deemed unrelated to the vax? Now they are related and there are more of them. You are braver than me to speculate on the final event rate and declare full speed ahead.


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

Again, this wasn't intended to be adversarial. I'm all in favour of "prudent pharmacovigilance". I'm grateful for yours and others continued research. 
In the meantime, thousands probably died as a result of christmas dinner with the relatives, against scientific advice, and thousands more may die if the vaccination stalls because of fear of what appears to be a very rare reaction. 
I'm just suggesting that most of us take the risk of travelling by road, even though 0.5% of us will die on one.
19 deaths out of 18,000,000 vaccines is 0.0001%.


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			Again, this wasn't intended to be adversarial. I'm all in favour of "prudent pharmacovigilance". I'm grateful for yours and others continued research.
In the meantime, thousands probably died as a result of christmas dinner with the relatives, against scientific advice, and thousands more may die if the vaccination stalls because of fear of what appears to be a very rare reaction.
I'm just suggesting that most of us take the risk of travelling by road, even though 0.5% of us will die on one.
19 deaths out of 18,000,000 vaccines is 0.0001%.
		
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Look at it this way. IF, and it is a big IF, there was an alternate vaccine available with no delay, then each and every one of the deaths associated with the AZ vaccine is unnecessary and avoidable. The choice here is not one of very small risk of death due to an adverse event versus no vaccination and the risks of Covid. 

The public perception of risk is also non-linear or rational. People accept familiar risks, like car crashes much better than unfamiliar and poorly understood ones. Everyone is familiar with getting in a car and safely making it to Tesco and back intact, but may not experience the benefits of vaccination in quite the same way. And just because you drive a car or eat too many pies or whatever, doesn't mean you should or will accept another risk that you understand much less well.


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

I completely understand. I'm viewing it from the other side though. The numbers affected by each person who declines the vaccine then gets Covid and either dies or passes it on to others who die or pass it on... repeat. 
I'm not suggesting for one second that it isn't an extraordinarily difficult calculation - just that classical medical ethics aren't the only factor I'm considering.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 7, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			If they suddenly suspended it what would that mean for second doses?
		
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This is what we're now wondering. Daughter in law is 21 and clinically vulnerable so has already had it. She ended up being rushed back in hospital a few days later with a allergic like reaction, they couldnt pin it on anything but seems a bit odd that she had it a few days after being jabbed. My guess is if you've had the first dose then the second one isn't going to give you any problems hopefully


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## GB72 (Apr 7, 2021)

Glad it is Van-Tam answering the questions. Not sure how he his viewed in the medical world but he has come across to me as someone who is firm, up front, honest and does not suffer fools. Think this situation needed his forthright voice on this and I for one generally trust the messages that he puts across.


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Glad it is Van-Tam answering the questions. Not sure how he his viewed in the medical world but he has come across to me as someone who is firm, up front, honest and does not suffer fools. Think this situation needed his forthright voice on this and I for one generally trust the messages that he puts across.
		
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Agree. Whenever he's been on in the last year I've found myself wishing he was the one in charge. 
I suspect some of the more haughty members of his profession think he's a bit too normal. Perhaps worry he might reveal what's going on "behind the curtain."


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## SaintHacker (Apr 7, 2021)

I always think one day he's going to lose it and invite one of the journalists to meet him out back for a 'straightener' 😂


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## drdel (Apr 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I always think one day he's going to lose it and invite one of the journalists to meet him out back for a 'straightener' 😂
		
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Preston or kuensberg: both!!!!


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## bobmac (Apr 7, 2021)

Deleted


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			I completely understand. I'm viewing it from the other side though. The numbers affected by each person who declines the vaccine then gets Covid and either dies or passes it on to others who die or pass it on... repeat.
I'm not suggesting for one second that it isn't an extraordinarily difficult calculation - just that classical medical ethics aren't the only factor I'm considering.
		
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I understand the transmissibility problem, but now you are saying that people should accept a higher level of personal risk of harm to themselves to prevent possible harm to others? Good luck selling that one. 

It isn't a matter of classical medical ethics, it is a matter of actually figuring out what the real risk is, and as you have seen, that number has risen a few times, and it is unlikely we have reached the true number yet. These things have a habit of growing further than first expected and some people tend to stick to their starting views too long.


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## IainP (Apr 7, 2021)

Just looking away from UK shores for a moment :
Brazil yesterday reporting 4.2K deaths and 83K cases for one day
India, which obviously has a very large population, reporting 115K cases for one day

In the UK it feels a lot better than it did 3 months ago, but there are plenty more challenges ongoing worldwide


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 7, 2021)

IainP said:



			Just looking away from UK shores for a moment :
Brazil yesterday reporting 4.2K deaths and 83K cases for one day
India, which obviously has a very large population, reporting 115K cases for one day

In the UK it feels a lot better than it did 3 months ago, but there are plenty more challenges ongoing worldwide
		
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On the plus side, my BiL rang today from China. Life is fully back to normal. Bars, restaurants, cinema, no restrictions, no masks. The only query is foreign travel which still requires quarantine afterwards. 

We keep hearing the negatives but we have to remind ourselves that there is a way out as well.


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I understand the transmissibility problem, but now you are saying that people should accept a higher level of personal risk of harm to themselves to prevent possible harm to others?
		
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No. I didn't say that. You've read something that wasn't there.
I am giving it some thought and engaging in a conversation about perspective on a golf forum. Thankfully, I will never be the one making the decisions or telling people what they should do.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 7, 2021)

IainP said:



			Just looking away from UK shores for a moment :
Brazil yesterday reporting 4.2K deaths and 83K cases for one day
India, which obviously has a very large population, reporting 115K cases for one day

In the UK it feels a lot better than it did 3 months ago, but there are plenty more challenges ongoing worldwide
		
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Yes and in respect of that, the BBC news headline says that a new variant is being blamed.
Eh? 
Read a full report elsewhere, and it repeats the well known fact that the President who is sceptical of Covid aspects is not permitting any restrictions such as the majority of the rest of the world is taking.
I know which reports seem more accurate to me as to the cause of such high figures,and it isn't that about the new variant 🙄


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			No. I didn't say that. You've read something that wasn't there.
I am giving it some thought and engaging in a conversation about perspective on a golf forum. Thankfully, I will never be the one making the decisions or telling people what they should do.
		
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I read you referencing transmissibility as a factor in policy-making. Did I misunderstand?


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## Ethan (Apr 7, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Glad it is Van-Tam answering the questions. Not sure how he his viewed in the medical world but he has come across to me as someone who is firm, up front, honest and does not suffer fools. Think this situation needed his forthright voice on this and I for one generally trust the messages that he puts across.
		
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I think Van Tam is well regarded, for a person in his position. I think he and Whitty probably think more like one another than you think, although Van Tam looks more willing to throw down and scrap it out. Whitty is more professorial, but has a lot of credibility. Not sure if not suffering fools is a durable working style when dealing with politicians, though.  

I gather that some in the medial profession think Van Tam has started to enjoy his public image just a little bit too much, though.


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## RichA (Apr 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I read you referencing transmissibility as a factor in policy-making. Did I misunderstand?
		
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Yes.
I was musing over statistics and probabilities that the individual might consider when perceiving risk and deciding whether to accept a vaccination or not.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think Van Tam is well regarded, for a person in his position. I think he and Whitty probably think more like one another than you think, although Van Tam looks more willing to throw down and scrap it out. Whitty is more professorial, but has a lot of credibility. Not sure if not suffering fools is a durable working style when dealing with politicians, though. 

I gather that some in the medial profession think Van Tam has started to enjoy his public image just a little bit too much, though.
		
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I like the way Van Tam uses analogies to clarify medical policy to us laymen.  I have a suspicion he will have a media career in the future.


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## drdel (Apr 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I like the way Van Tam uses analogies to clarify medical policy to us laymen.  I have a suspicion he will have a media career in the future.
		
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I'm with Ethan, Van Tam is beginning to play to the galleries and in so doing is selecting some pretty silly analogies which are in danger of dumbing down the key and crucial messages IMO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2021)

drdel said:



			Preston or kuensberg: both!!!!
		
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They ask the questions that need to be asked - that there should be answers for - and that I might wish to ask if I had the opportunity - which I dont. 

As it happens I think some of the best and most instructive questions are asked by Beth Rigby of Sky News and Victoria MacDonald of Ch4 News.  In fact I suspect that, where a question is asked that has already been asked and answered, rather than be irritated,  VT values the opportunity to hammer home his message.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2021)

drdel said:



			I'm with Ethan, Van Tam is beginning to play to the galleries and in so doing is selecting some pretty silly analogies which are in danger of dumbing down the key and crucial messages IMO.
		
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I didn't read Ethan as saying that.  I don't think Van Tam says anything 'Silly' either, he rather makes an attempt to clarify medical terms so that people can more readily understand them.  The key and critical message is lost if confounded in medical terms not easily understood.


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## ExRabbit (Apr 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*They ask the questions that need to be asked* - that there should be answers for - and that I might wish to ask if I had the opportunity - which I dont.

As it happens I think some of the best and most instructive questions are asked by Beth Rigby of Sky News and Victoria MacDonald of Ch4 News.  In fact I suspect that, where a question is asked that has already been asked and answered, rather than be irritated,  VT values the opportunity to hammer home his message.
		
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They ask questions that they want to look good for asking amongst a certain section of the viewers.

And they are so predictable.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 8, 2021)

Rigby and Kuensberg ask questions only designed to try and trip up the presenters into saying something contradictory or controversial. And the same question one of the others has already asked. 

Has Peston asked a question yet? He usually spends 10 minutes rambling and mumbling about something vaguely related to the topic being discussed, but asking the right questions? Nope. The man has all the whit an intellect of the substitute member of a 6th form debating team.


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't read Ethan as saying that.  I don't think Van Tam says anything 'Silly' either, he rather makes an attempt to clarify medical terms so that people can more readily understand them.  The key and critical message is lost if confounded in medical terms not easily understood.
		
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Actually I do agree with Del. Some of the analogies don't work and could mislead. 

I also think the presentation of those risk-benefit measures yesterday will not work. People don't actively accept a risk now even if it is shown to be a bit lower than a later passively acquired risk. We are going to see more resistance to this vaccine in older age groups.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Actually I do agree with Del. Some of the analogies don't work and could mislead.

I also think the presentation of those risk-benefit measures yesterday will not work. People don't actively accept a risk now even if it is shown to be a bit lower than a later passively acquired risk. We are going to see more resistance to this vaccine in older age groups.
		
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I didn't comment on acceptance of risk and didn't notice you suggesting Van Tam was 'Playing to the galleries'

OK, I like Van Tams explanations and see them as anything but 'Silly'


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## drdel (Apr 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't comment on acceptance of risk and didn't notice you suggesting Van Tam was 'Playing to the galleries'

OK, I like Van Tams explanations and see them as anything but 'Silly'
		
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The suggestion "...playing to the galleries..." was my opinion and I stand by it and I believe he now uses the analogies because the media expect it, it detracts from a very serious subject. Again IMO, other opinions are available.


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't comment on acceptance of risk and didn't notice you suggesting Van Tam was 'Playing to the galleries'

OK, I like Van Tams explanations and see them as anything but 'Silly'
		
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OK, perhaps not "silly" but some miss the point and may mislead. Communicating complicated issues in simple soundbites is very tricky, though, to be fair. The message needs, above all, to reassure people that the decisions being taken on their behalf are properly thought through and prioritise their best interests. There has not been a great track record of that on Covid, although JVT has not been responsible for most of the bad stuff.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 8, 2021)

drdel said:



			The suggestion "...playing to the galleries..." was my opinion and I stand by it and I believe he now uses the analogies because the media expect it, it detracts from a very serious subject. Again IMO, other opinions are available.
		
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Yes, mines available and I also stand by it.


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## RichA (Apr 8, 2021)

Throughout this he's been the one voice of authority who pitches the message such that normal people understand it as well as possible. 
I looked at what is available of his biography and I'm willing to trust that he is highly competent in his field and at delivering an accurate message.
Straight talking, normal bloke who happens to be a highly qualified expert in virology and immunology.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 8, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Rigby and Kuensberg ask questions only designed to try and trip up the presenters into saying something contradictory or controversial. And the same question one of the others has already asked.

Has Peston asked a question yet? He usually spends 10 minutes rambling and mumbling about something vaguely related to the topic being discussed, but asking the right questions? Nope. The man has all the whit an intellect of the substitute member of a 6th form debating team.
		
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The presenters should be clear on the situation and will be well prepared to answer any question that comes their way.  The experts and politicians are determining the future quality of life of every single one of us.  Where there is uncertainty or lack of clarity I want that out in the open- and fortunately the experts are clearly happy to explain where there is uncertainty or where a change of direction is required.   I don‘t care if similar questions are asked as it tends to be the case that a second or third question on similar subject tends to focus on any vagueness in the answer given. And that is what is required.

unfortunately i think the logic behind the change for under 30s and the AZ vaccine is not going to be understood or will be deliberately misinterpreted/misconstrued by some. Change in the relative risk of X against that of Y is different from a change in the absolute risk of either.  But that’s a quite difficult thing to get head around unless I just accept what the experts are telling me - I am generally quite happy to do that with whatever level of understanding I have formed.


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2021)

RichA said:



			Throughout this he's been the one voice of authority who pitches the message such that normal people understand it as well as possible.
I looked at what is available of his biography and I'm willing to trust that he is highly competent in his field and at delivering an accurate message.
Straight talking, normal bloke who happens to be a highly qualified expert in virology and immunology.
		
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At the risk of being a pedant, he is neither a virologist nor immunologist. He is a trained and qualified public health doctor and epidemiologist, and has prior experience of working in pharmaceutical industry. A bit like me, in fact, albeit in the opposite order. 

I think he serves a useful purpose, compared to Whitty, who seems more egg-headed and professorial, whereas VT is more like an ordinary bloke (even though in many ways he is not) who occasionally weighs in as the heavy. But don't assume they differ on strategy and the way forward. They really don't.


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## RichA (Apr 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			At the risk of being a pedant, he is neither a virologist nor immunologist. He is a trained and qualified public health doctor and epidemiologist, and has prior experience of working in pharmaceutical industry. A bit like me, in fact, albeit in the opposite order. 

I think he serves a useful purpose, compared to Whitty, who seems more egg-headed and professorial, whereas VT is more like an ordinary bloke (even though in many ways he is not) who occasionally weighs in as the heavy. But don't assume they differ on strategy and the way forward. They really don't.
		
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Whatever. I'm a layman. Funny that you should humbly compare yourself to him, while we're generally praising him.


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2021)

RichA said:



			Whatever. I'm a layman. Funny that you should humbly compare yourself to him, while we're generally praising him.
		
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You misunderstand, as a layman, so I was just helpfully pointing out his specialisms, which happen to be similar to mine. If you have misinterpreted that as some sort of comparative value judgement, that is your issue.

In terms of being a blokey and popular spokesman for the Govt, which was the thing for which you were praising him, the comparison is utterly non-existent.


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## larmen (Apr 8, 2021)

Just been invited to book my 2nd jab in a week’s time. Gave myself all Saturday and Sunday to deal with side effects ;-)


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## SaintHacker (Apr 8, 2021)

larmen said:



			Just been invited to book my 2nd jab in a week’s time. Gave myself all Saturday and Sunday to deal with side effects ;-)
		
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And monday to recover from the hangover?


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2021)

larmen said:



			Just been invited to book my 2nd jab in a week’s time. Gave myself all Saturday and Sunday to deal with side effects ;-)
		
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You might be pleasantly surprised. Most people don't have too much trouble.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2021)




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## D-S (Apr 8, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1380205927521980426


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## AmandaJR (Apr 8, 2021)

I met my first "anti-vaxxer" today. She wasn't fully anti but didn't feel confident enough in the vaccines in their current form (Pfizer and AZ) to have one. I was surprised that I didn't think "stupid woman" rather than admiring her honesty (when asked if she'd had her first jab she said "I'll say yes...") and having some empathy and understanding. Made me realise how much the recent issues regarding blood clots has impacted my own viewpoint on their safety.

She claimed to read as much medical literature on them and that the "recipe" in production wasn't the same as that in the trials. That might be a load of old bull mind!


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## Ethan (Apr 8, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I met my first "anti-vaxxer" today. She wasn't fully anti but didn't feel confident enough in the vaccines in their current form (Pfizer and AZ) to have one. I was surprised that I didn't think "stupid woman" rather than admiring her honesty (when asked if she'd had her first jab she said "I'll say yes...") and having some empathy and understanding. Made me realise how much the recent issues regarding blood clots has impacted my own viewpoint on their safety.

She claimed to read as much medical literature on them and that the "recipe" in production wasn't the same as that in the trials. That might be a load of old bull mind!
		
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That is a load of old bull. She is not reading medical literature.


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## DanFST (Apr 8, 2021)

From what I've read the contraceptive pill has a greater risk of causing blood clots. Taking a flight of 4+ hours even more so.


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## GB72 (Apr 8, 2021)

Not trying to denegrate the argument or belittle any points of view but is there any impact of the sheer size of the vaccination program on the number of side effects. Just wondering if any other vaccines have been applied on basically a global, whole population scale and whether the number of people vaccinated was bound to give rise to a number of side effects. Would other vaccines have a number of side effects discovered if rolled out on such a scale over such a short period. Guessing some vaccines would take decades to be applied in the numbers these are and may show similar numbers of instances of side effects just spread over a significantly longer period of time.

I have no medical knowledge, just one direction my mind was going


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not trying to denegrate the argument or belittle any points of view but is there any impact of the sheer size of the vaccination program on the number of side effects. Just wondering if any other vaccines have been applied on basically a global, whole population scale and whether the number of people vaccinated was bound to give rise to a number of side effects. Would other vaccines have a number of side effects discovered if rolled out on such a scale over such a short period. Guessing some vaccines would take decades to be applied in the numbers these are and may show similar numbers of instances of side effects just spread over a significantly longer period of time.

I have no medical knowledge, just one direction my mind was going
		
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When you look at the typical % of adverse reactions it looks a little silly to be dissing the AZ vaccine, as the EU seems to be doing. Equally, let's not stick our head in the sand. Less emotion and more intelligent conversation is the way forward.

As an aside, I saw a piece in a Spanish newspaper today saying that they want the AZ vaccine here in Spain. And then you read the EU spin.... wonder if its more to do with the abject performance of the EU Commission and VDL.


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## jim8flog (Apr 8, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Good question! I've been pro vaccine all the way but am starting to get a little nervous about having the 2nd AZ jab. I may not quite be in the young category but I am female!!
		
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 When it comes to females and higher risk I wonder how many who took/are taking birth control pills have actually read the leaflet that comes with those pills.

This is a side effect of *birth control pills*, often buried in the small-print of a leaflet. a potential 252,600 to 757,800 people are at risk of *blood clots* while using *birth control*. The FDA estimates that the risk of *birth control* users developing a serious *blood clot* is three to nine women out of 10,000, every year.16 Mar 2021


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## larmen (Apr 8, 2021)

Do the birth control numbers take into account that they take it 21 out of 28 days month after month? AZ is a one time application for those numbers so far.

Still, personally I would take the odds on either, but I got lucky I got Pfizer.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not trying to denegrate the argument or belittle any points of view but is there any impact of the sheer size of the vaccination program on the number of side effects. Just wondering if any other vaccines have been applied on basically a global, whole population scale and whether the number of people vaccinated was bound to give rise to a number of side effects. Would other vaccines have a number of side effects discovered if rolled out on such a scale over such a short period. Guessing some vaccines would take decades to be applied in the numbers these are and may show similar numbers of instances of side effects just spread over a significantly longer period of time.

I have no medical knowledge, just one direction my mind was going
		
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Fair point raised.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 9, 2021)

By definition the very rarest side-effects of any drug are only going to manifest themselves from general and widespread use and reporting from across the population, and can‘t come from formal testing.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2021)

I have a concern the vaccine has become a victim of the great mind fog that has settled on our new age of wokest and political BS.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			When you look at the typical % of adverse reactions it looks a little silly to be dissing the AZ vaccine, as the EU seems to be doing. Equally, let's not stick our head in the sand. Less emotion and more intelligent conversation is the way forward.

As an aside, I saw a piece in a Spanish newspaper today saying that they want the AZ vaccine here in Spain. And then you read the EU spin.... wonder if its more to do with the abject performance of the EU Commission and VDL.
		
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The EU is not dissing the vaccine. This is not political. Norway (not even an EU country) and Denmark started this, and they are the most anglophilic of the EMA member countries. As I have said repeatedly, the issue is not a simple comparison of reported rates versus the prevalence of these events in the background population. That is a Daily Mail way of looking at it. The real question is what the true rate is, and whether the clotting problem crosses over a range of different conditions, as one might expect it would. We have seen this go from 'a few DVTs, fewer than you would expect' to 'a few Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis but still very rare' to 'A few more CVST and some other abdominal vein thrombosis' and the MHRA has gone from 'no link with the vaccine' to 'link with the vaccine but benefit-risk still favourable over age 30'. It should be obvious, as it was at the outset to those who have observed previous safety issues play out, that this was an evolving issue, and it is very unlikely to be done yet. The big remaining questions are (a) whether we have detected all the cases of these sentinel conditions, and more importantly (b) whether there is also an increase in the broad range of other clotting conditions such as acute MI, stroke, renal and liver failure and so on. The latter is where the really bad news may be hiding.

Also, it is not the EU. It is the European Medicines Agency, which is independent. If you don't believe it is independent, then you can't really believe the MHRA is independent either, and was not pressured to first approve the AZ vaccine fast (noting that the US has still not approved it) or leant on to minimise the extent of their latest restrictions.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I have a concern the vaccine has become a victim of the great mind fog that has settled on our new age of wokest and political BS.
		
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Would you like to enlarge on that curious statement?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Would you like to enlarge on that curious statement?
		
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I think it speaks for itself and needs no further clarification.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I think it speaks for itself and needs no further clarification.
		
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It certainly speaks volumes about one thing.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It certainly speaks volumes about one thing.
		
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Oh yes!  It certainly does.


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## larmen (Apr 10, 2021)

Are there obvious symptoms for these blood clots people would see for themselves?

For example, when I had my PEs back in 2015 I had massively swollen legs. I knew something wasn’t right.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

larmen said:



			Are there obvious symptoms for these blood clots people would see for themselves?

For example, when I had my PEs back in 2015 I had massively swollen legs. I knew something wasn’t right.
		
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PEs occur in the lungs. Some people with PE have a history of DVT, with swollen, red, hot legs, and others don't.

But the adverse events of concern with the AZ vaccine are mainly Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis (CVST), and Splanchnic Vein Thrombosis (SVT). These are similar to DVT in the sense they are thrombi that form in the venous circulation, but these occur in a different location from DVT and PE, the brain and the abdomen respectively. Most DVTs occur due to sluggish circulation, sedentary jobs, long haul flights etc, as well as being more common in people with some form of hyper coagulability, excessive clottiness, (on the pill, have cancer, certain genetic conditions). Most cases of CVST and SVT occur for the same reasons, but these cases with the vaccine appear to have a different basis, antibody formation against platelets causing them to aggregate in clumps which block vessels but also resulting in depletion of platelets elsewhere as they are all sucked into the thrombus. So you get hyper coagulability and bleeding tendencies occurring together. 

This is likely to be due to the adnovirus vector which stimulates an immune response. We knew this at the start, although thought it might affect efficacy more. The Johnson&Johnson vaccine which also uses an adenovirus is seeing similar reports occurring and Sputnik should see the same, although we might not hear about those. 

The issue, though, is whether this event is restricted to the CVST and SVT disorders mentioned. I suspect it is not, and these were only observed because they are rare. It seems incredibly unlikely that there are not DVT and PE, as well as thrombi-embolic events in the arterial circulation, also occurring but not being attached to the vaccine because they are the sort of thing you would expect people in the 50s and 60s to get anyway.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It certainly speaks volumes about one thing.
		
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Indeed, although you shouldn't boast about it.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 10, 2021)

@Ethan - is it likely that a zero reaction/complication (apart from feel rotten for a couple of days) to the first jab means the 2nd should follow suit?


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The EU is not dissing the vaccine. This is not political. Norway (not even an EU country) and Denmark started this, and they are the most anglophilic of the EMA member countries. As I have said repeatedly, the issue is not a simple comparison of reported rates versus the prevalence of these events in the background population. That is a Daily Mail way of looking at it. The real question is what the true rate is, and whether the clotting problem crosses over a range of different conditions, as one might expect it would. We have seen this go from 'a few DVTs, fewer than you would expect' to 'a few Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis but still very rare' to 'A few more CVST and some other abdominal vein thrombosis' and the MHRA has gone from 'no link with the vaccine' to 'link with the vaccine but benefit-risk still favourable over age 30'. It should be obvious, as it was at the outset to those who have observed previous safety issues play out, that this was an evolving issue, and it is very unlikely to be done yet. The big remaining questions are (a) whether we have detected all the cases of these sentinel conditions, and more importantly (b) whether there is also an increase in the broad range of other clotting conditions such as acute MI, stroke, renal and liver failure and so on. The latter is where the really bad news may be hiding.

Also, it is not the EU. It is the European Medicines Agency, which is independent. If you don't believe it is independent, then you can't really believe the MHRA is independent either, and was not pressured to first approve the AZ vaccine fast (noting that the US has still not approved it) or leant on to minimise the extent of their latest restrictions.
		
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Good to know that the MHRA is independent.  Seem to remember someone infer it wasn't a while back.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Indeed, although you shouldn't boast about it.
		
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I don't, but seeing through the BS is something I strongly recommend.

Do you like quoting your own quotes?


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



@Ethan - is it likely that a zero reaction/complication (apart from feel rotten for a couple of days) to the first jab means the 2nd should follow suit?
		
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Most people don't have much reaction to either. Word is that people tend to have more of a reaction to first AZ than second, and the other way round for Pfizer. still mostly pretty mild, though.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't, but seeing through the BS is something I strongly recommend.
		
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You should clarify exactly what you think is BS. It would be more rational to agree or disagree with specifics rather than broad unstated generalities.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Good to know that the MHRA is independent.  Seem to remember someone infer it wasn't a while back.
		
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I didn't say it was or it wasn't independent, but it is double standards to suggest the EMA is acting at the behest of politicians but the same is not possible for the MHRA.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You should clarify exactly what you think is BS. It would be more rational to agree or disagree with specifics rather than broad unstated generalities.
		
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There's so much of it about I find it difficult to know where to start and as I shouldn't encroach into politics I'll leave you to work that out for yourself, or not, as the mood takes you.


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## Hobbit (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The EU is not dissing the vaccine. This is not political. Norway (not even an EU country) and Denmark started this, and they are the most anglophilic of the EMA member countries. As I have said repeatedly, the issue is not a simple comparison of reported rates versus the prevalence of these events in the background population. That is a Daily Mail way of looking at it. The real question is what the true rate is, and whether the clotting problem crosses over a range of different conditions, as one might expect it would. We have seen this go from 'a few DVTs, fewer than you would expect' to 'a few Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis but still very rare' to 'A few more CVST and some other abdominal vein thrombosis' and the MHRA has gone from 'no link with the vaccine' to 'link with the vaccine but benefit-risk still favourable over age 30'. It should be obvious, as it was at the outset to those who have observed previous safety issues play out, that this was an evolving issue, and it is very unlikely to be done yet. The big remaining questions are (a) whether we have detected all the cases of these sentinel conditions, and more importantly (b) whether there is also an increase in the broad range of other clotting conditions such as acute MI, stroke, renal and liver failure and so on. The latter is where the really bad news may be hiding.

Also, it is not the EU. It is the European Medicines Agency, which is independent. If you don't believe it is independent, then you can't really believe the MHRA is independent either, and was not pressured to first approve the AZ vaccine fast (noting that the US has still not approved it) or leant on to minimise the extent of their latest restrictions.
		
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Good reminder on the EMA MHRA independence, appreciated. I worked closely with the MHRA a number of times and never found any bias whatsoever. 

Strangely, it goes some way to explain the EMA EU relationship as the EU is still chasing AZ for more doses even though some countries are discriminating based on age.

As an aside, we've been given the nod for the first jab. We fall into the AZ age group but my liver function tests going back since whenever have often confounded medics as they are always outside of the 'window.' Should I decline the AZ in favour of a/n/other vaccine?


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## BiMGuy (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			There's so much of it about I find it difficult to know where to start and as I shouldn't encroach into politics I'll leave you to work that out for yourself, or not, as the mood takes you.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a cop out answer.

Do you even know what the meaning of woke is?


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Good reminder on the EMA MHRA independence, appreciated. I worked closely with the MHRA a number of times and never found any bias whatsoever.

Strangely, it goes some way to explain the EMA EU relationship as the EU is still chasing AZ for more doses even though some countries are discriminating based on age.

As an aside, we've been given the nod for the first jab. We fall into the AZ age group but my liver function tests going back since whenever have often confounded medics as they are always outside of the 'window.' Should I decline the AZ in favour of a/n/other vaccine?
		
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The MHRA has always been a good regulator. Ironically, they drove a lot of the EMA process for medicine approval and safety management. Even more ironically, until quite recently, their independence was assured by their place in the EMA because with centralised approval mechanisms, there was little discretion for significant deviation from the central process. 

Now, while mostly the same people are in charge (some went over to EMA), it is clear there is more political pressure on the MHRA. The UK Govt was desperate to make  claims of Brexit-related successes (even though they weren't) and get the first approval of AZ, so I expect the MHRA was leaned on to deliver that. Probably not directly by Govt, but through intermediaries like Vallance or JCVI people. Likewise, I expect they were made well aware of the unhappiness there would be were they to recommend limiting the vaccine in the 30s and 40s, the very group just about to be lined up for vaccination. 

On the EU/EMA side, the difference in the way individual countries have approached this safety issue illustrates that countries do have degrees of discretion. The vaccine still has approval for use in all age groups throughout the EU, but individual countries healthcare systems can choose to limit use, just like the NHS can limit use of approved medicines in the UK, on the basis of NICE guidance or using contracting levers.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Thats a cop out answer.

Do you even know what the meaning of woke is?
		
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Yes, it's a slang term for 'Awake' the act of 'waking up'  probably an Americanism  but like so many words it's now been adopted by a bunch of wannabes who are looking anywhere and everywhere to be offended by something.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, it's a slang term for 'Awake' the act of 'waking up'  probably an Americanism  but like so many words it's now been adopted by a bunch of wannabes who are looking anywhere and everywhere to be offended by something.
		
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There is a delicious irony in people getting upset, angry and offended by other people being offended. And its usually the people who use terms like snowflake or woke as insults who are likely to melt the quickest.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			There is a delicious irony in people getting upset, angry and offended by other people being offended. And its usually the people who use terms like snowflake or woke as insults who are likely to melt the quickest.
		
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Oh dear, I seem to have offended you.  That's so deliciously ironic 🙂


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## BiMGuy (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh dear, I seem to have offended you.  That's so deliciously ironic 🙂
		
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Nah. I've only ever been offended once in my life when someone asked me which part of Manchester I'm from!


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The MHRA has always been a good regulator. Ironically, they drove a lot of the EMA process for medicine approval and safety management. Even more ironically, until quite recently, their independence was assured by their place in the EMA because with centralised approval mechanisms, there was little discretion for significant deviation from the central process.

Now, while mostly the same people are in charge (some went over to EMA), it is clear there is more political pressure on the MHRA. The UK Govt was desperate to make  claims of Brexit-related successes (even though they weren't) and get the first approval of AZ, so I expect the MHRA was leaned on to deliver that. Probably not directly by Govt, but through intermediaries like Vallance or JCVI people. Likewise, I expect they were made well aware of the unhappiness there would be were they to recommend limiting the vaccine in the 30s and 40s, the very group just about to be lined up for vaccination.

On the EU/EMA side, the difference in the way individual countries have approached this safety issue illustrates that countries do have degrees of discretion. The vaccine still has approval for use in all age groups throughout the EU, but individual countries healthcare systems can choose to limit use, just like the NHS can limit use of approved medicines in the UK, on the basis of NICE guidance or using contracting levers.
		
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Then I take it from this that the MHRA in your opinion isn't independent but the EMA who you now link with the EU are.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Nah. I've only ever been offended once in my life when someone asked me which part of Manchester I'm from!
		
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What part was it 😀


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Nah. I've only ever been offended once in my life when someone asked me which part of Manchester I'm from!
		
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SocketRocket said:



			What part was it 😀
		
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To be fair, he did ask for this 
If Socket hadnt jumped I would have asked the question


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## BiMGuy (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What part was it 😀
		
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The sunny bit from the other side of the hill! 😂


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## larmen (Apr 10, 2021)

larmen said:



			Just been invited to book my 2nd jab in a week’s time. Gave myself all Saturday and Sunday to deal with side effects ;-)
		
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Got a phone call at 18:10, if I can be there in 15 minutes for a leftover doses of the day. Got the last dose and am Just sitting out my 15 minutes.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The sunny bit from the other side of the hill! 😂
		
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Morcombe?


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## larmen (Apr 10, 2021)

Back home now, fully vaccinated.

As there were only handful of us with a couple of doctors sitting around for 15 minutes they had time to answer a few questions.

Who do they call for leftover doses? There is no time to decide on who should, they looked at the next Pfizer day and went top down in that list. I had a 9:30 next Saturday, must be the next Pfizer day locally.

They haven’t heard about anyone who had an reaction to a 2nd dose of a vaccine, the 15 minutes are possibly disappearing in the future, at least for the 2nd shot.

AZ, if you had a 1st dose of it and are over 30 that is what you get, or nothing. But if you didn’t react negatively on the 1st it is unlikely you react negatively on the 2nd.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Morcombe?
		
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Sunny??


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Sunny??
		
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Sub Tropical


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## BiMGuy (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Sub Tropical
		
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Its possibly the coldest place I've been this side of the Arctic circle.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Its possibly the coldest place I've been this side of the Arctic circle.
		
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That's because you come from the Jessie side of the hill 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, it's a slang term for 'Awake' the act of 'waking up'  probably an Americanism  but like so many words it's now been adopted by a bunch of wannabes who are looking anywhere and everywhere to be offended by something.
		
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If it’s a slang term it’s one now adopted by the right wing press to dismiss and denigrate those, and views, it considers to be overly-sensitive to issues of misogyny and racism - how it’s come into vaccination considerations I don’t really know.

Sadly I hesitate to even post the above and certainly cannot say more as I seem to be expert at triggering multiple responses by forummers and reporting of my posts to the mods on the grounds that they contain barely concealed political views. And I get infractions and shut out of ths forum. 😳😇


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2021)

If you think only the right wing press use it your either living in another world or blinded by your bias.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 10, 2021)

Guys the thread is about how the Corona Virus has affected us

Can we all keep on topic please 👍


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Then I take it from this that the MHRA in your opinion isn't independent but the EMA who you now link with the EU are.
		
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Sigh.


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2021)

I had vaccine no. 1 nearly 3 weeks ago.  Now I'm thinking,  "how protected am I?"

When will we know for sure?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 10, 2021)

IanM said:



			I had vaccine no. 1 nearly 3 weeks ago.  Now I'm thinking,  "how protected am I?"

When will we know for sure?
		
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What am I missing that you think you aren't protected?


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## IanM (Apr 10, 2021)

Well, the blurb talks about percentages and a finite period before you get jab number two.

From The Grauniad last month,   

"workers under 65 found that one dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine reduced the risk of catching the virus by 70% – and 85% after the second dose"


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## bobmac (Apr 11, 2021)

IanM said:



			Well, the blurb talks about percentages and a finite period before you get jab number two.

From The Grauniad last month,  

"workers under 65 found that one dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine reduced the risk of catching the virus by 70% – and 85% after the second dose"
		
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My understanding is that even if you are unlucky to catch the virus, having had the vaccine, you will be less likely to have any serious symptoms.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			My understanding is that even if you are unlucky to catch the virus, having had the vaccine, you will be less likely to have any serious symptoms.
		
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As I understand it....".
The vaccine does not protect you from 'catching' the virus. I.e. It is not a force field around you keeping the virus from your body.
If the virus gets into your body, however, the vaccine has already provided an 'army' within your body which will attack the virus and nullify or greatly reduce its attack on you.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 11, 2021)

IanM said:



			I had vaccine no. 1 nearly 3 weeks ago.  Now I'm thinking,  "how protected am I?"

When will we know for sure?
		
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I'm not even thinking about that. Still taking the same precautions I was prior to the vaccine - for me and others.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm not even thinking about that. Still taking the same precautions I was prior to the vaccine - for me and others.
		
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I am currently at a kids football tournament. Some people do not share your precautions 🤬
Its a joke this kind of activity started the same time as golf.


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## Ethan (Apr 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As I understand it....".
The vaccine does not protect you from 'catching' the virus. I.e. It is not a force field around you keeping the virus from your body.
If the virus gets into your body, however, the vaccine has already provided an 'army' within your body which will attack the virus and nullify or greatly reduce its attack on you.
		
Click to expand...

But for the same reason, it will massively reduce the risk of you spreading it. The vaccine will stimulate your immune system to work to make sure the virus has a short stay and does not replicate and therefore create new virus for shedding and transmission to someone else.

The great majority of vaccinated people will not experience symptoms and those who do will generally have a much milder course.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys the thread is about how the Corona Virus has affected us

Can we all keep on topic please 👍
		
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QED.  Others post with political undertones seemingly with impunity - I post and immediately there is push back with the usual political complaint...and with the usual suspects approving 🥺.

Dear Mods.  I did not do the original post including reference to ‘woke’ - or did that not get noticed...I simply gave a definition of the word as had been requested by another post - and the general context in which it is used.

My post also noted my not understanding why ‘woke’ had been pulled into a conversation about the virus...so in fact I was on the side of the mods.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			QED.  Others post seemingly with impunity - I post and immediately there is push back with the usual political complaint...and with the usual suspects approving 🥺
		
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No the thread went off topic and needed steering back on course, if you are reading that as an anti SILH post then that is down to your paranoia and nothing else

Note that your above post was edited after my reply 🙄


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## D-S (Apr 11, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1381284187500638213


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## larmen (Apr 12, 2021)

The nhs page seems to be accepting under 50s to book their vaccine now, based on a couple of messages seen on social media.


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## Paperboy (Apr 13, 2021)

Over 45's can book. Still need to wait. I'll be the last one in my immediate family to get it, although my brother is under 40.


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## Hobbit (Apr 13, 2021)

They’re doing the 75 to 79’s here. Hoping that the original Sept date will be now sometime in May. Second dose is within 3 weeks here.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 13, 2021)

Lol, website overloaded. What a surprise 🙄😂


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			They’re doing the 75 to 79’s here. Hoping that the original Sept date will be now sometime in May. Second dose is within 3 weeks here.
		
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Other than the pensioners the vaccine is not being doled out in age group here, more to do with what job you have (i.e front line, essential workers, public sector & public services workers etc etc)

Vaccine supplies are very limited so working in a private sector office job I’ve no idea if I’ll even get one this year (can’t blame them but with countries like the UK over-ordering for current needs I don’t see that changing too quickly either & there will be plenty countries worse off than here, so globally this is here for the long haul ready to re-enter any country that thinks it has it beat)


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## patricks148 (Apr 13, 2021)

Got mine this afternoon, Wife had hers on Sat, Over 50's. she was ill for 3 days with Flu like symptoms as were a couple of her friends who had it the same time. we have the AZ vac. my mate the Doc who i played with yesterday said that was a good sign as showed  " immune response"


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## SaintHacker (Apr 13, 2021)

Both jabs booked! It appears it works better if you log in with your nhs number. If you dont know it you can request it through the nhs website


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## Slime (Apr 13, 2021)

Slab said:



			Other than the pensioners the vaccine is not being doled out in age group here, more to do with what job you have (i.e front line, essential workers, public sector & public services workers etc etc)

Vaccine supplies are very limited so working in a private sector office job I’ve no idea if I’ll even get one this year (can’t blame them *but with countries like the UK over-ordering *for current needs I don’t see that changing too quickly either & there will be plenty countries worse off than here, so globally this is here for the long haul ready to re-enter any country that thinks it has it beat)
		
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Has the UK actually over-ordered?


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## D-S (Apr 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Lol, website overloaded. What a surprise 🙄😂

[/QUOTE

Both jabs booked! It appears it works better if you log in with your nhs number. If you dont know it you can request it through the nhs website]

That was quick!
		
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## Ridgeman (Apr 13, 2021)

Slime said:



			Has the UK actually over-ordered?
		
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Yes and indeed  no.   The UK has orderred 400 million vaccinations.   Even say at 65 million x 2 its way over.   However they were ordered before we knew they would all work or not.   If a couple of them hadn't worked in particular the AZ then we situation would be of under ordering.  Better safe than sorry.   We should be in a position to let others have our over ordering amounts.


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## Ridgeman (Apr 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Both jabs booked! It appears it works better if you log in with your nhs number. If you dont know it you can request it through the nhs website
		
Click to expand...

On works in certain parts of the UK.


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## Mudball (Apr 13, 2021)

Got my dates.. 

@Ethan .. my wife is an NHS key worker. She got her Pfizer back in Feb in Hampshire (near where she works). But no news on 2nd one. Our (Surrey based) GP has escalated but no cigar. Now 14 weeks but no idea what to do. She called Guildford hospital but they said they can do first one but not set up to give her second dose. I can understand it but Bonkers ..

Any idea on how to deal with this?


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2021)

Slime said:



			Has the UK actually over-ordered?
		
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As Ridgeman says 400 million. So enough to double dose every adult 4 times over. I've no proof that represents over-ordering but it appears to be


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## Beezerk (Apr 13, 2021)

Spikes of the South African variant in London I heard earlier, hope they can quash it 🤞


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## SaintHacker (Apr 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			That was quick!
		
Click to expand...

Yeah. Kept kicking me out until I went tried using my NHS number, then it went straight through. Have to travel a bit for the first one (down to Christchurch) but I went ofor the soonest rather than the nearest so no problem with that. 2nd one is just up the road.


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## Piece (Apr 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Both jabs booked! It appears it works better if you log in with your nhs number. If you dont know it you can request it through the nhs website
		
Click to expand...

Wife, who is 50, wasn't called up by normal methods. NHS site said recently that she was "ineligible". After calls and comms to 119, GP, Drs, no-one knows why she can't book. Then this morning, opens up to 45+ and lo and behold she can book. Took a bit of time to get through, but all sorted, including the second jab.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 13, 2021)

I had the Oxford vaccination 8 weeks ago with no side effects. 
But I'm a little concerned after having blood samples taken yesterday.

The nurse filled the 1st phial no problem but the blood flow stopped halfway filling the 2nd phial. 
She had to go to my right arm to fill the 2nd phial.
I've had blood taken lots of times this has never happened before. 

BTW, I know the old Tony Hancock joke, that's nearly an armful.


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## Mudball (Apr 13, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Got my dates.. 

@Ethan .. my wife is an NHS key worker. She got her Pfizer back in Feb in Hampshire (near where she works). But no news on 2nd one. Our (Surrey based) GP has escalated but no cigar. Now 14 weeks but no idea what to do. She called Guildford hospital but they said they can do first one but not set up to give her second dose. I can understand it but Bonkers ..

Any idea on how to deal with this?
		
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Sod’s law.. 2 hrs after posting here, got a call from GP surgery to get a booking.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 13, 2021)

Slab said:



			As Ridgeman says 400 million. So enough to double dose every adult 4 times over. I've no proof that represents over-ordering but it appears to be
		
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They were covering bases. Apparently we have already shipped some to Australia, they were struggling to get some thanks to our friends across the water, and we will pass out any extra once UK citizens have been jabbed. The core of any govt is to protect their own people, you can't blame them for this.

I don't expect us to sit on vaccines once we have reached the critical point. I think the UK is pretty good on this front, I would expect us to do our part.


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They were covering bases. Apparently we have already shipped some to Australia, they were struggling to get some thanks to our friends across the water, and we will pass out any extra once UK citizens have been jabbed. *The core of any govt is to protect their own people, you can't blame them for this*.

I don't expect us to sit on vaccines once we have reached the critical point. I think the UK is pretty good on this front, I would expect us to do our part.
		
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Yeah absolutely (I even said that exact same thing in my post) I was just saying that vaccines are in short supply here (and other countries) so no sign of me getting jagged anytime soon, & I don't see it improving much, especially if countries have excess on order 
I doubt anyone's sitting on any surplus anyway but globally it probably needs to be tackled concurrently, so plenty countries with over-orders on the books will have to start to cancel some of these


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 13, 2021)

Slab said:



			Yeah absolutely (I even said that exact same thing in my post) I was just saying that vaccines are in short supply here (and other countries) so no sign of me getting jagged anytime soon, & I don't see it improving much, especially if countries have excess on order
I doubt anyone's sitting on any surplus anyway but globally it probably needs to be tackled concurrently, so plenty countries with over-orders on the books will have to start to cancel some of these
		
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There is a WHO scheme set up for countries to pile excess into that will then be distributed. It just wont happen on any scale yet. I doubt countries will cancel orders, gut feeling. I think they would rather have the excess and distribute it out than cancel the orders. Keeping the orders open allows for any variations that need a tweaked vaccine this winter.

On the bright side for you, you may not have a vaccine but your island seems to be pretty covid free and you have been able to play golf, go to bars, send annoyingly attractive pictures of blue sea and beaches, whilst we have been living like miserable hermits. The vaccine is the next step though, I hope it reaches you soon


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## Ethan (Apr 13, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Got my dates..

@Ethan .. my wife is an NHS key worker. She got her Pfizer back in Feb in Hampshire (near where she works). But no news on 2nd one. Our (Surrey based) GP has escalated but no cigar. Now 14 weeks but no idea what to do. She called Guildford hospital but they said they can do first one but not set up to give her second dose. I can understand it but Bonkers ..

Any idea on how to deal with this?
		
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It isn't 14 weeks since Feb, though. 

I think she is probably a victim of the shortages and reshuffling of some AZ vaccine. The GP should be able to sort something out, even if it is a 'turn up at the end of the day' solution. And it might be pretty short notice. If she doesn't hear soon, though, she should ask Occupational Health at her NHS employer. 

In terms of the risk to her, I wouldn't worry. The 12 weeks is arbitrary, and it is likely that a second dose, if one is even needed, at 4 or 6 months would be just as effective. In the meantime she is pretty well covered by Pfizer which appears to be the most effective first shot. 

I have had one Pfizer too, in the middle of Feb, and waiting to hear about the next one. If push came to shove, I would be happy to take a Moderna as my second shot. It is basically the same idea as Pfizer, but in a slightly different vehicle.


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## Ethan (Apr 13, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Sod’s law.. 2 hrs after posting here, got a call from GP surgery to get a booking.
		
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Oh, OK, good for her.


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## Wabinez (Apr 13, 2021)

Positive update from Sturgeon for the Scots, and, more importantly, looks to pretty much green light my postponed trip to play The Old Course next month.

Great news


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## Ethan (Apr 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They were covering bases. Apparently we have already shipped some to Australia, they were struggling to get some thanks to our friends across the water, and we will pass out any extra once UK citizens have been jabbed. The core of any govt is to protect their own people, you can't blame them for this.

I don't expect us to sit on vaccines once we have reached the critical point. I think the UK is pretty good on this front, I would expect us to do our part.
		
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It was right to order way more because at the start, it was expected that some of the vaccine clinical programs would fail. So far only the GSK/Sanofi one has failed and Merck withdrew one, probably after seeing several others complete successfully. Also, the staging in time of product release and production delays which are common with biological products were all risk factors. 

I previously expressed the view that I thought the UK order book was too heavily weighted in favour of UK production, especiaily AZ, because AZ was not an experienced vaccine developer, did not have tried and tested production capability and the viral vectors are inherently more risky in terms of production failure. I thought the UK order book should have given greater weight to Pfizer because they are a highly experienced vaccine maker, mRNAs are easier and faster to make than viral vectors, they have lots of scalable and flexible production and were looking like one of the first to land. But they don't make in the UK. 

It looks a lot like the booster contracts are going to Novavax (good vaccine, it seems) and Valneva (no idea, no phase III data yet). Both of these are made in the UK, both in areas where the (some political comments self-redacted) seats. 

Also, the acquisition cost (price) of these vaccines is, in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant. It is a drop in the ocean compared to other Covid costs and great value at almost any price. The £37bn cost of the (political comment) Test and Trace would pay for over 2 billion Pfizer vaccines at the UK or EU contract price, and you might get a few more thrown in at that volume, or indeed would buy 25% of Pfizer shares.


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## Slab (Apr 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is a WHO scheme set up for countries to pile excess into that will then be distributed. It just wont happen on any scale yet. I doubt countries will cancel orders, gut feeling. I think they would rather have the excess and distribute it out than cancel the orders. Keeping the orders open allows for any variations that need a tweaked vaccine this winter.

On the bright side for you, you may not have a vaccine but your island seems to be pretty covid free and you have been able to play golf, go to bars, send annoyingly attractive pictures of blue sea and beaches, whilst we have been living like miserable hermits. The vaccine is the next step though, I hope it reaches you soon 

Click to expand...

It was all looking so good too... Unfortunately we got a new patient zero that flew in and 'missed' the quarantine, so we have another lockdown (2nd) and our first covid related deaths in almost a year!
All that good work undone and now there's folk getting ill again


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 13, 2021)

Slab said:



			It was all looking so good too... Unfortunately we got a new patient zero that flew in and 'missed' the quarantine, so we have another lockdown (2nd) and our first covid related deaths in almost a year!
All that good work undone and now there's folk getting ill again 

Click to expand...

I didn't want to click the like button as there is nothing to like about this post. Sorry to hear this, hopefully it will be quickly surpressed.


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## GB72 (Apr 13, 2021)

And it begins. Man City and Spurs are allowed 2000 fans each at the Carabao cup final but those who are classed as clinically vulnerable are not able to attend. Not commenting on whether excluding these groups is right or wrong (I am not even sure that the definition of clinically vulnerable is) but it was always going to kick off if you allow certain members of society to do something whilst specifically excluding another group from doing the same thing.


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## DanFST (Apr 13, 2021)

GB72 said:



			And it begins. Man City and Spurs are allowed 2000 fans each at the Carabao cup final but those who are classed as clinically vulnerable are not able to attend. Not commenting on whether excluding these groups is right or wrong (I am not even sure that the definition of clinically vulnerable is) but it was always going to kick off if you allow certain members of society to do something whilst specifically excluding another group from doing the same thing.
		
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It's a small percentage of the population. No qualms from me.



solid organ transplant recipients
people with specific cancers:
people with cancer who are undergoing active chemotherapy
people with lung cancer who are undergoing radical radiotherapy
people with cancers of the blood or bone marrow such as leukaemia, lymphoma or myeloma who are at any stage of treatment
people having immunotherapy or other continuing antibody treatments for cancer
people having other targeted cancer treatments that can affect the immune system, such as protein kinase inhibitors or PARP inhibitors
people who have had bone marrow or stem cell transplants in the last 6 months or who are still taking immunosuppression drugs

people with severe respiratory conditions including all cystic fibrosis, severe asthma and severe chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
people with rare diseases that significantly increase the risk of infections (such as severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID), homozygous sickle cell disease)
people on immunosuppression therapies sufficient to significantly increase risk of infection
problems with your spleen, for example splenectomy (having your spleen removed)
adults with Down’s syndrome
adults on dialysis or with chronic kidney disease (stage 5)
women who are pregnant with significant heart disease, congenital or acquired
other people who have also been classed as clinically extremely vulnerable, based on clinical judgement and an assessment of their needs. GPs and hospital clinicians have been provided with guidance to support these decisions


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## patricks148 (Apr 13, 2021)

just been for my jab, my you get asked to strange questions, the Doc was an oriental lady, no idea why she wanted to know if i had trouble getting erections??


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## Ethan (Apr 13, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			just been for my jab, my you get asked to strange questions, the Doc was an oriental lady, no idea why she wanted to know if i had trouble getting erections??

Click to expand...

Did I just go through a time warp into the 1970s? Is persimmon back too?


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## patricks148 (Apr 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Did I just go through a time warp into the 1970s? Is persimmon back too?
		
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what she was saying was "i do i have trouble with allergic reactions", had to ask her 3 times. she thought is was funny too


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## Imurg (Apr 13, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			just been for my jab, my you get asked to strange questions, the Doc was an oriental lady, no idea why she wanted to know if i had trouble getting erections??

Click to expand...

Maybe she was wondering why you hadn't voted recently....


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## jim8flog (Apr 13, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I had the Oxford vaccination 8 weeks ago with no side effects.
But I'm a little concerned after having blood samples taken yesterday.

The nurse filled the 1st phial no problem but the blood flow stopped halfway filling the 2nd phial.
She had to go to my right arm to fill the 2nd phial.
I've had blood taken lots of times this has never happened before.

BTW, I know the old Tony Hancock joke, that's nearly an armful.
		
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 Have you been drinking gluhwein?


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## larmen (Apr 13, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			just been for my jab, my you get asked to strange questions, the Doc was an oriental lady, no idea why she wanted to know if i had trouble getting erections??

Click to expand...

That’s a different Pfizer.


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## larmen (Apr 13, 2021)

1st day in the office for the new company. Felt weird to actually commute again, but I really wanted to meet the new boss. I got a desk on the 4th floor which has steps enough for 5 or 6 floors. Going to have to stop in the kitchen as base camp.
At my old place we had the 1st floor and it was lift only.


Oxford street didn’t look to busy, missing tourists I guess. And stores really take precautions. Got temperature checked at Apple and somewhere else.

And I walk past city golf every day. At which point can you ask a new employer for a pay rise? ;-)


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## williamalex1 (Apr 13, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Have you been drinking gluhwein?
		
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No Gluhwein, just the occasional bandy .
I'm worried that it could possibly be blood clot related


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## chellie (Apr 13, 2021)

Second Pfizer jab today. As yet no side effects. They were listing them all out before giving the jab...


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 14, 2021)

Can you imagine if one of the potential side-effects was getting a four-hour erection.  The take-up would be 100%.  Well from the men anyway


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## Ethan (Apr 14, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Can you imagine if one of the potential side-effects was getting a four-hour erection.  The take-up would be 100%.  Well from the men anyway  

Click to expand...

Why would we men accept the vaccine just for an extra hour or so? Who has the time?


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 14, 2021)

Just finished a competition round. One if the group has a mate who says his first jab's side effect ( AZ)  has given him a vicious hook. Reckons he is having the second jab in the other arm to straighten him out!


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Why would we men accept the vaccine just for an extra hour or so? Who has the time?
		
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Memories. Oh, memories!


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## williamalex1 (Apr 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Memories. Oh, memories!
		
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Pole vaulting ?


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## Old Skier (Apr 14, 2021)

North Devon first area to be COVID free for a week with no cases and no positive test, walked down to the village (Instow) today, it was rammed with holiday makers so be interesting to see if that will last.


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## D-S (Apr 14, 2021)

M5 southbound past Bristol has been like a Saturday in August (crawling nose to tail for 20 miles) for the past three days - the West Country is going to be overrun with visitors soon!


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## Old Skier (Apr 14, 2021)

D-S said:



			M5 southbound past Bristol has been like a Saturday in August (crawling nose to tail for 20 miles) for the past three days - the West Country is going to be overrun with visitors soon!
		
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Already happening, mate took 4 hours to get from Weston Super Mud back to Barnstaple.


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## chrisd (Apr 14, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Can you imagine if one of the potential side-effects was getting a four-hour erection.  The take-up would be 100%.  Well from the men anyway  

Click to expand...


What! Less than usual ?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Already happening, mate took 4 hours to get from Weston Super Mud back to Barnstaple.
		
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Makes you think again about a potential early retirement plan...


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## D-S (Apr 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Already happening, mate took 4 hours to get from Weston Super Mud back to Barnstaple.
		
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God knows what it’s going to be like from May 17th when I assume hotels reopen.


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## Old Skier (Apr 14, 2021)

D-S said:



			God knows what it’s going to be like from May 17th when I assume hotels reopen.
		
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Anyone coming down the A361 for the next two years to sample the delights of Saunton, RND and the other courses in N Devon they are in for a nasty suprise.


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## D-S (Apr 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone coming down the A361 for the next two years to sample the delights of Saunton, RND and the other courses in N Devon they are in for a nasty suprise.
		
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Don’t tell me they’ve closed that new bridge and we’re going to have to crawl though Barnstaple at a snails pace again. It always used to make a day trip to Saunton a pain and guaranteed a topped tee shot off the 1st on the East.


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## Old Skier (Apr 14, 2021)

D-S said:



			Don’t tell me they’ve closed that new bridge and we’re going to have to crawl though Barnstaple at a snails pace again. It always used to make a day trip to Saunton a pain and guaranteed a topped tee shot off the 1st on the East.
		
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Nooe, road widening and roundabouts going in at several junctions between Tiverton and Barnstaple. Who would have thought that it should have been duel carriageway  to begin with.


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## need_my_wedge (Apr 15, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			No Gluhwein, just the occasional bandy .
I'm worried that it could possibly be blood clot related 

Click to expand...

Did you ask the question? I would expect that they would be aware of the blood clot issue, and if they thought it was related, made you an appointment to see a someone poste haste.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 15, 2021)

chrisd said:



			What! Less than usual ?
		
Click to expand...

Side effect No.16 - complete delusion


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## chrisd (Apr 15, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Side effect No.16 - complete delusion  

Click to expand...

Side effect No 17 - thinking you're normal when you're no where near what rampant stallions are like 😁


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## williamalex1 (Apr 15, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Did you ask the question? I would expect that they would be aware of the blood clot issue, and if they thought it was related, made you an appointment to see a someone poste haste.
		
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I said to the nurse at the time, that it was the first time that that had ever happened [ running out of blood ] .
She said she wasn't concerned as it happens quite often.
The doctor got me a chest X-ray appointment on Monday, because I've been getting a bit breathless recently.
I'm also waiting for a heart monitoring appointment.

I now know what  " old age doesn't come by it's self " means .


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## chrisd (Apr 15, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I now know what  " old age doesn't come by it's self " means .
		
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Yes, never a truer statement


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## drdel (Apr 15, 2021)

Denmark has stopped using AZ.


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## Ethan (Apr 15, 2021)

drdel said:



			Denmark has stopped using AZ.
		
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And if they have enough Pfizer to supply their programme, that is reasonable. Denmark was one of the initial couple of countries that reported unusual thrombotic events. They have a rational and apolitical regulator. The debate on this issue moved very fast to comparisons with other risks. Besides not being the point, that line of argument missed one very big question. If there are rare cases of rare but easily recognised events occurring, are there also more cases of more common but less distinguishable (as drug-related effects) such as MI or stroke? That is the iceberg question. I suspect the Danes have been thinking about this and looking at data.


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## Hobbit (Apr 15, 2021)

Granada province back into perimeter lockdown, and all non-essential businesses close from midnight tonight.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Did I just go through a time warp into the 1970s? Is persimmon back too?
		
Click to expand...

I did hear a Doctor on the television last week saying they had found men taking Viagra had lower rates of heart disease and strokes. He went on to suggest it may help us live longer and enjoy it.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 15, 2021)

There used to be an advert for that kind of "medicine" before the 4th quarter of every NFL game's coverage on TV.  It was priceless.  They spent half the advert showing older blokes with younger women and then the other half going through the list of the side effects.  One of which was "see your doctor if you have an erection lasting more than four hours".  See the doctor?  I'd be phoning the Guiness Book of Records.  In fact, I'd be round to Kylie's house waving a flag


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## AmandaJR (Apr 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Granada province back into perimeter lockdown, and all non-essential businesses close from midnight tonight.
		
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That's not good. Stay safe.


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## Ethan (Apr 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I did hear a Doctor on the television last week saying they had found men taking Viagra had lower rates of heart disease and strokes. He went on to suggest it may help us live longer and enjoy it.
		
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Viagra was first developed as an anti-hypertensive and the effect of interest was a side effect connected to its vasodilative effect on vascular tissue.


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## Slime (Apr 15, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			There used to be an advert for that kind of "medicine" before the 4th quarter of every NFL game's coverage on TV.  It was priceless.  They spent half the advert showing older blokes with younger women and then the other half going through the list of the side effects.  One of which was "see your doctor if you have an erection lasting more than four hours".  *See the doctor?  I'd be phoning the Guiness Book of Records.  In fact, I'd be round to Kylie's house waving a flag* 

Click to expand...

Back of the queue, laddie, back of the queue.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 16, 2021)

Hoping its more press scare mongering but this new Indian variant seems worrying. Thatbsaid you have to ask why the hell India isnt already on the red list given infection rate


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## road2ruin (Apr 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Thatbsaid you have to ask why the hell India isnt already on the red list given infection rate
		
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Not sure that can be answered without getting political however it's been suggested that it would make upcoming talks awkward......


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## Rooter (Apr 16, 2021)

chellie said:



			Second Pfizer jab today. As yet no side effects. They were listing them all out before giving the jab...
		
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Keep us posted over the next few days! I have Pfizer 2 in a fortnight and heard the second can be very different...


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## larmen (Apr 16, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Keep us posted over the next few days! I have Pfizer 2 in a fortnight and heard the second can be very different...
		
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I am 6 days past 2nd Pfizer and had half a day of headaches. Plus the sore arm of course.

What makes me wonder is that at the beginning they talked about 30ish percent experiencing effects, but anecdotal numbers look a lot higher. Maybe there is a placebo effect and a badge of honour in it?


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## Pants (Apr 16, 2021)

Been Pfizered twice now and no problems whatsoever.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 16, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Keep us posted over the next few days! I have Pfizer 2 in a fortnight and heard the second can be very different...
		
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Got mine next Tuesday, Pfizer. 👍


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## Billysboots (Apr 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Hoping its more press scare mongering but this new Indian variant seems worrying. Thatbsaid you have to ask *why the hell India isnt already on the red list given infection rate*

Click to expand...

An interesting observation, given the UK’s total cases per one million of population is *six times *that of India.


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## jim8flog (Apr 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			M5 southbound past Bristol has been like a Saturday in August (crawling nose to tail for 20 miles) for the past three days - the West Country is going to be overrun with visitors soon!
		
Click to expand...

 Back to normal then


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## jim8flog (Apr 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			Denmark has stopped using AZ.
		
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 I have heard they are using google maps now.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 16, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			An interesting observation, given the UK’s total cases per one million of population is *six times *that of India.
		
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Not for much longer. Since 1st april they have been hitting over 100k new cases per day, today was 217k.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 16, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			There used to be an advert for that kind of "medicine" before the 4th quarter of every NFL game's coverage on TV.  It was priceless.  They spent half the advert showing older blokes with younger women and then the other half going through the list of the side effects.  One of which was "see your doctor if you have an erection lasting more than four hours".  See the doctor?  I'd be phoning the Guiness Book of Records.  In fact, I'd be round to Kylie's house waving a flag  

Click to expand...

A bloke went into a Chemist with that problem and asked the Spinster Pharmacist what she could give him for it. She thought for a minute and said' A Company Car, Pension and £40,000 a year.

OK, I know it's off subject 🙂


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 16, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Keep us posted over the next few days! I have Pfizer 2 in a fortnight and heard the second can be very different...
		
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Wasn't for me. Just a little headache.


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## Billysboots (Apr 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not for much longer. Since 1st april they have been hitting over 100k new cases per day, today was 217k.
		
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But with a population of almost 1.4 billion people their infection rate is a fraction of ours, and likely to remain so.

I don’t know what statistics are considered when adding countries to the red list, but if infection rates are a factor it perhaps explains why India doesn’t currently feature on it.


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 16, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			There used to be an advert for that kind of "medicine" before the 4th quarter of every NFL game's coverage on TV.  It was priceless.  They spent half the advert showing older blokes with younger women and then the other half going through the list of the side effects.  One of which was "see your doctor if you have an erection lasting more than four hours".  See the doctor?  I'd be phoning the Guiness Book of Records.  In fact, I'd be round to Kylie's house waving a flag  

Click to expand...

Kylie - a bit young for me.  Helen Mirren or Anna Ford - maybe.


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## chellie (Apr 16, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Keep us posted over the next few days! I have Pfizer 2 in a fortnight and heard the second can be very different...
		
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Arm was sore again for a day and had a headache that lasted for a day. Four others at work have felt like they had flu that lasted for a few hours. Two have felt "spaced" out.


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 16, 2021)

I was fine after fist Pfizer 20th Jan. Ten and a half weeks later had second Pfizer at 3pm and I thought everything was well. Next day I felt awful, limb aches, headache and just felt really tired. Following day felt fine as soon as I woke up. Wife and brother-in-law had their jabs same time as me and had no problems other than tenderness for a day where the needle went in and that was no problem for me both times. Even if I knew that was going to happen, I still would have had the jabs.


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## IainP (Apr 17, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			But with a population of almost 1.4 billion people their infection rate is a fraction of ours, and likely to remain so.

I don’t know what statistics are considered when adding countries to the red list, but if infection rates are a factor it perhaps explains why India doesn’t currently feature on it.
		
Click to expand...

Yourself & @SaintHacker both make valid points. To add to the debate, the worldometer site has recently added a weekly trends feature.

E.g.
Cases in last 7 days per million population 

India : 948 (+ 62%, Position 71)
 UK    : 266 (- 8 %, Position 112)

Make of these what you will!
(I don't know the "red list" rules either)


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## Billysboots (Apr 17, 2021)

IainP said:



			Yourself & @SaintHacker both make valid points. To add to the debate, the worldometer site has recently added a weekly trends feature.

E.g.
Cases in last 7 days per million population

India : 948 (+ 62%, Position 71)
UK    : 266 (- 8 %, Position 112)

Make of these what you will!
(I don't know the "red list" rules either)
		
Click to expand...

Statistics. Confusing at the best of times!

I agree India has a significant problem with Covid but it’s not as simple as saying we need to shut our borders to them because they’re having 200k cases daily. It’s the context which matters.

Roll on the day when we can all sit down together and say “So, coronavirus. What was that all about?”


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## Hobbit (Apr 17, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Statistics. Confusing at the best of times!

I agree India has a significant problem with Covid but it’s not as simple as saying we need to shut our borders to them because they’re having 200k cases daily. It’s the context which matters.

Roll on the day when we can all sit down together and say “So, coronavirus. What was that all about?”
		
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Isn’t there a danger of being in denial? COVID death toll is currently at around 3 million. Maybe some countries have over estimated but maybe some developing nation can’t record their actual deaths either.

The reality is that this might even be considered as the 21st century’s Black Death. Yes, medical science has curtailed the impact but just imagine what the death toll would be without lockdowns and vaccines....

There is still a road to travel, and hopefully we will say, “what was that all about,” but let’s not look to dilute the hard work of all those that strive to minimise the impact of what the world is suffering.


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## Billysboots (Apr 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Isn’t there a danger of being in denial? COVID death toll is currently at around 3 million. Maybe some countries have over estimated but maybe some developing nation can’t record their actual deaths either.

The reality is that this might even be considered as the 21st century’s Black Death. Yes, medical science has curtailed the impact but just imagine what the death toll would be without lockdowns and vaccines....

There is still a road to travel, and hopefully we will say, “what was that all about,” but let’s not look to dilute the hard work of all those that strive to minimise the impact of what the world is suffering.
		
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Oh, I know there’s a road to travel, and I still think there are twists and turns to come, with the odd sting in the tail.

This isn’t over yet by a long way, I agree.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Isn’t there a danger of being in denial? COVID death toll is currently at around 3 million. Maybe some countries have over estimated but maybe some developing nation can’t record their actual deaths either.
		
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And then add in those countries that will never give accurate figures. As an example I give you North Korea, who according to their official figures haven't recorded a single Covid case, let alone a Covid death. There are a few other countries who have figures that I am highly sceptical of.


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And then add in those countries that will never give accurate figures. As an example I give you North Korea, who according to their official figures haven't recorded a single Covid case, let alone a Covid death. There are a few other countries who have figures that I am highly sceptical of.
		
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I suppose if nobody gets in or out of N Korea it might be right.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I suppose if nobody gets in or out of N Korea it might be right. 

Click to expand...

It only take one or two to start, and it would spread like wildfire. I wouldn't believe anything N Korea says. 
I wonder what Kim's handicap is now


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## pauljames87 (Apr 18, 2021)

Woke up to a txt from the GP 


offered my second jab this Wednesday .. still booked in for may 7th so I've swapped them round 

Gives me that protections slightly early


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Woke up to a txt from the GP


offered my second jab this Wednesday .. still booked in for may 7th so I've swapped them round

Gives me that protections slightly early
		
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I had my first jab at the start of February and have not been offered a second yet.   I called the GP surgery a few days ago and they said they are waiting to get some more in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

Really concerned that the India Variant will put opening up of venues etc on 21st June at very significant risk (it’s very existence has already increased that risk), and not understanding at all why India isn’t on the Red List.  If anything is going to undermine ‘irreversible’ it’s such as the India Variant getting a hold in the country.

Why does this affect me? It would cost me quite a chunk of money...

note that if the answer is more political than epidemiological then don’t bother answering.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really concerned that the India Variant will put opening up of venues etc on 21st June at very significant risk (it’s very existence has already increased that risk), and not understanding at all why India isn’t on the Red List.  If anything is going to undermine ‘irreversible’ it’s such as the India Variant getting a hold in the country.

Why does this affect me? It would cost me quite a chunk of money...

note that if the answer is more political than epidemiological then don’t bother answering.
		
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We do need to be much quicker on closing borders. I hope and pray we don't end up on another merry go round of lockdowns.


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## Billysboots (Apr 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I had my first jab at the start of February and have not been offered a second yet.   I called the GP surgery a few days ago and they said they are waiting to get some more in.
		
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This is surprising and concerning in equal measure. I had my doubts whether the second jab would be delivered within 12 weeks, never mind the 11 we were all told they were aiming for.

The simplistic guy in me thought that if a practice vaccinated 500 patients with their first dose of AZ in Week 1, then in Week 12 they would have another 500 doses of AZ delivered and simply recall the same 500. But I doubted it would be that easy, even more so with Pfizer given the storage issues.

But I have been called for my second Pfizer 11 weeks to the day after my first. I’m as relieved as I am surprised.

It surprises me to hear of your situation but you do still have some leeway before the 12 weeks has passed.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 19, 2021)

Just back from being stuck. Got the astra-zeneca, all very quick and efficient. And speaking as a massive blouse when it comes to needles I'm very happy to say I barely felt it!


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## SaintHacker (Apr 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Really concerned that the India Variant will put opening up of venues etc on 21st June at very significant risk (it’s very existence has already increased that risk), and not understanding at all why India isn’t on the Red List.  If anything is going to undermine ‘irreversible’ it’s such as the India Variant getting a hold in the country.

Why does this affect me? It would cost me quite a chunk of money...

note that if the answer is more political than epidemiological then don’t bother answering.
		
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Guess it hinges on how well the vaccines work against it. So far they seem to be saying they are working.

Question for @Ethan , if a variant should appear that is resistant to the current vaccines, are we back to square one while we wait for a new one to be developed and tested, or would it be just a quick tweak to an existing jab and away we go again?


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## Ethan (Apr 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Just back from being stuck. Got the astra-zeneca, all very quick and efficient. And speaking as a massive blouse when it comes to needles I'm very happy to say I barely felt it!
		
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It is usually a pretty fine and quite sharp needle, makes the injection more or less painless.


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## Ethan (Apr 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Guess it hinges on how well the vaccines work against it. So far they seem to be saying they are working.

Question for @Ethan , if a variant should appear that is resistant to the current vaccines, are we back to square one while we wait for a new one to be developed and tested, or would it be just a quick tweak to an existing jab and away we go again?
		
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The answer is clearly 'maybe'. Most of the coverage which says that some or other variant is able to evade the vax relates to antibodies tested in the lab against a variant, but the body's immune system is a bit smarter than that and has other weapons, so real world effects may be different. 

Once we get out of the first round of vaccinations, boosters become important and updating boosters to catch up with variants will help build a more responsive immune system that gets better and better at dealing with new variants that are not specifically covered. That is what happens with flu. The immune system knows a flu virus when it sees one now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We do need to be much quicker on closing borders. I hope and pray we don't end up on another merry go round of lockdowns.
		
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Quite -  it why is it not being done...it should have been done possibly weeks ago. Wait until the variant is established in the country and determine that the vaccines aren’t quite as effective...? Too late.

You don’t mitigate a risk by waiting until the risk happens, that’s what contingencies are for.  But if the impact of a risk is highly significant and you absolutely don’t want it to occur, you apply the mitigations as soon as possible after the risk is identified and assessed, and mitigations for it are defined.  You do not wait and see.


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## Hobbit (Apr 19, 2021)

We were supposed to be going away on Wednesday to Nerja, about a 2 hour drive, and still in Andalucia. Unfortunately Nerja is in Granada region, which has gone into perimeter lockdown. 

And we were going shopping in Almeria city on Friday but that is also now in perimeter lockdown.

We now have an appointment for 12:30 on Thursday for the AZ jab but fully expect to be turned away - chaos. Seems they invite more people than they have vaccine for just in case they have no-shows. I know some people who are on their 3rd appointment... Hopefully fully jabbed up by the end of July.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2021)

So India to go on Red List on Friday...


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2021)

I found out yesterday my son got given his jab because he is considered to be at risk for heath reasons.  He has absolutely no idea what the health reason is because he does not remember ever going to the doctors since he left home and he is in late 30s now.


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## jim8flog (Apr 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Just back from being stuck. Got the astra-zeneca, all very quick and efficient. And speaking as a massive blouse when it comes to needles I'm very happy to say I barely felt it!
		
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 The age of the sharp prick has long gone.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I found out yesterday my son got given his jab because he is considered to be at risk for heath reasons.  He has absolutely no idea what the health reason is because he does not remember ever going to the doctors since he left home and he is in late 30s now.
		
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The daughter of a woman at work got an invitation and was jabbed last week. She is 26-27, perfect health, no issues. I think there are some glitches in the system but the more that get jabbed the better. She did query it when she arrived but they simply shrugged their shoulders and said 'if you were invited..........'


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## BTatHome (Apr 19, 2021)

How the hell is putting India on Red list supposed to help us, when in the same breath they decide not to implement it for another 4 days!!!
Surely if your making these decisions you do it straight away


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## SaintHacker (Apr 20, 2021)

BTatHome said:



			How the hell is putting India on Red list supposed to help us, when in the same breath they decide not to implement it for another 4 days!!!
Surely if your making these decisions you do it straight away
		
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Unfortunately this is what they've done at every stage of the pandemic. I still remember the night they announced the pubs would be closing the next day back at the start of this. I was working that night, driving through London every single pub was jammed full of people, perhaps unsurprisingly. That obviously ended well

Properly rough night last night. Went to bed about 11 feeling fine. Woke about 1am feeling like I'd been run over by a steam train, shakes shivers sweats aches and pains. Finally managed to get back off about 5am and now feel almost normal again, just a very slight headache and a stiff arm. Weird.


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## jim8flog (Apr 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Unfortunately this is what they've done at every stage of the pandemic. I still remember the night they announced the pubs would be closing the next day back at the start of this. I was working that night, driving through London every single pub was jammed full of people, perhaps unsurprisingly. That obviously ended well

Properly rough night last night. Went to bed about 11 feeling fine. Woke about 1am feeling like I'd been run over by a steam train, shakes shivers sweats aches and pains. Finally managed to get back off about 5am and now feel almost normal again, just a very slight headache and a stiff arm. Weird.
		
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 Sounds like most nights for me

Mind you the doc tells me there is something wrong with he just does not know what.


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## arnieboy (Apr 20, 2021)

Second jab due on Friday this week,  first given on 9th February.


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## ger147 (Apr 20, 2021)

Invite for my first jab arrived today, appointment in a few weeks.


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## D-S (Apr 20, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Invite for my first jab arrived today, appointment in a few weeks.
		
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How old are you? hope that’s not a pushy question - just interested what age they have now got to.


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## ger147 (Apr 20, 2021)

D-S said:



			How old are you? hope that’s not a pushy question - just interested what age they have now got to.
		
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Under 50 and in central Scotland if that helps.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 20, 2021)

I had my first AZ jab today. Really well organised. Turned up 20 minutes early and was shown straight in. In and out in under 5 minutes.


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## Golfmmad (Apr 20, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			Second jab due on Friday this week,  first given on 9th February.
		
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Just had mine, first one 7th Feb. 👍


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 20, 2021)

I have to say that the whole vaccination roll-out has been an incredible success.  We are way too quick to criticize and slag off authorities at times but to think it it only just over four months ago that the first person got a jab.  And now we are over 30 million with their first one -  30 MILLION!    Everyone I have known has had no issues on the day with the organisation and has been treated really professionally.

If they had gone on certain professions rather than age, the arguments would still be going on about whose job was more important than others.   Age was the only way to really do it.

So a tip of the hat to everyone involved.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I had my first jab at the start of February and have not been offered a second yet.   I called the GP surgery a few days ago and they said they are waiting to get some more in.
		
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Given an appointment for second jab this Friday.


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## D-S (Apr 20, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I have to say that the whole vaccination roll-out has been an incredible success.  We are way too quick to criticize and slag off authorities at times but to think it it only just over four months ago that the first person got a jab.  And now we are over 30 million with their first one -  30 MILLION!    Everyone I have known has had no issues on the day with the organisation and has been treated really professionally.

If they had gone on certain professions rather than age, the arguments would still be going on about whose job was more important than others.   Age was the only way to really do it.

So a tip of the hat to everyone involved.
		
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The 2nd jab logistics are really impressive, trying to get everyone in on a day fairly close to 12 weeks after their first one and they need to make sure that on the day you go back they are using the same brand as you got first time - if people don’t turn up or cancel, rebooking must be a nightmare, but it all appears seamless so far.
Friend had the Moderna jab yesterday so that makes 3 varieties to keep tabs on for 2nd jabs.
Proud of the NHS.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 20, 2021)

Scotland seems to be doing all the right things as we ease out of lockdown.
Very clear messages from the FM today.


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2021)

N Devon’s claim to fame being the first COVID free area for a week didn’t last long


Doon frae Troon said:



			Scotland seems to be doing all the right things as we ease out of lockdown.
Very clear messages from the FM today.
		
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Nice to know your on the same track as the rest of the UK. Were you worried that you were being left behind.


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## Fade and Die (Apr 20, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scotland seems to be doing all the right things as we ease out of lockdown.
*Very clear messages from the FM today.*

Click to expand...

“Thank the Lord we are British” per chance? 😜


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## Mudball (Apr 21, 2021)

Got my first AZ jab yesterday at Heathrow mass vaccine centre..   Swift, effortless and in & out in 15 mins. It took me more time to locate the place, as the post code takes you to an industrial estate.  The guard there was bored of re-pointing everyone in the same direction.  

Beyond the NHS, amazing to see an army of volunteers helping out.  Some bored of the tedious & repetitive task, but sticking to it.   Speaking to the guy in the parking lot, he said they can do 1k vaccine everyday and yesterday they had about 800..


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 21, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			“Thank the Lord we are British” per chance? 😜
		
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No, just very clear messages on how Scotland will manage the next stages of dealing with a deadly virus.


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 21, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, just very clear messages on how Scotland will manage the next stages of dealing with a deadly virus.
		
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Which being cynical has nothing at all to do with an impending event in Scotland that might affect the FM .......


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

My arm aches already lol


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## Ethan (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 36274


My arm aches already lol
		
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Yeah, well the PW40040 batch'll do that. Famous for it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yeah, well the PW40040 batch'll do that. Famous for it.
		
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Long as it's not pw40041 .... Jezzz what a mess


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## Mudball (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 36274


My arm aches already lol
		
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I got the PV77698....  apparently was for right hand shot, but took it on my left arm...  it would not move this morning.


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## Imurg (Apr 21, 2021)

Now I'm back to work I find one thing I'm missing is time...
For 7 months of the last year I've had all the time in the world to do this or that or nothing..
Now, everything seems to be rushing along at breakneck speed and I'm not enjoying it....
Roll on retirement...


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I had my first AZ jab today. Really well organised. Turned up 20 minutes early and was shown straight in. In and out in under 5 minutes.
		
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Had my jab yesterday at 2pm. Everything was fine and had no side affects until waking up at 5-00am shivering and unable to get warm. Got up at 6-30 for a pint of squash and some paracetamol and then went back to bed. Have felt lousy all day with aches and pains and have spent the whole day in bed, only getting up to have a drink and take some more pills. I don't think I've ever slept so much. Starting to feel a bit more human now but still alternating between being too cold and too hot.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yeah, well the PW40040 batch'll do that. Famous for it.
		
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Now you tell him...


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## Whereditgo (Apr 22, 2021)

2nd jab booked for next Friday


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## Beezerk (Apr 22, 2021)

The latest covid chart from India looks a smidge scary 😲 absolutely exploded there it seems.


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## road2ruin (Apr 22, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			The latest covid chart from India looks a smidge scary 😲 absolutely exploded there it seems.
		
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Indeed although it seems to stem from large religious celebrations where millions attended, election rallies along with other lax safety rules so largely self inflicted although do apprecaite they also have the mutant strains to contend with there as well.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 22, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			The latest covid chart from India looks a smidge scary 😲 absolutely exploded there it seems.
		
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Still streaming into UK though.


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## Rooter (Apr 22, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			2nd jab booked for next Friday 

Click to expand...

I just booked mine for Tuesday next week! Was scheduled for 12 weeks to be 5th May, but they have brought it forward a week which is a great signal!


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## Rooter (Apr 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Indeed although it seems to stem from large religious celebrations where millions attended, election rallies along with other lax safety rules so largely self inflicted although do apprecaite they also have the mutant strains to contend with there as well.
		
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Yet we don't block the travel corridor until Friday... how long have we known of this and how many people have come into the UK since?!


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## road2ruin (Apr 22, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Yet we don't block the travel corridor until Friday... how long have we known of this and how many people have come into the UK since?!
		
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Sadly it's been standard throughout the entire period....

"Something horrendous is heading our way, it could be REALLY bad everyone, NHS could be overwhelmed..........we'll bring in restrictions next week, I'm sure it'll hold of until then"


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## RichA (Apr 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Indeed although it seems to stem from large religious celebrations where millions attended, election rallies along with other lax safety rules so largely self inflicted although do apprecaite they also have the mutant strains to contend with there as well.
		
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A friend from that part of the planet has pointed out to me that a lot of folks in India and similar countries don't quite get our response to COVID, as many other countries suffer hundreds of thousands to millions of deaths per year due to poverty, conflict and what we consider to be curable diseases. 
What terrifies some of us and has taken over our lives is just another thing to contend with to others.


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2021)

Take up of jabs in the SW for the 45+ having a poor response even though they are running appointments up to 2100 hrs.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 22, 2021)

We've just been invited for our 2nd jab , next Wednesday


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56846968

It’s very hard to feel sympathy for these people - why don’t they ask themselves - “why did I travel abroad during a pandemic “


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56846968

It’s very hard to feel sympathy for these people - why don’t they ask themselves - “why did I travel abroad during a pandemic “
		
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The first person quoted in that article was in India "visiting family". As someone that has to travel for work (that I can't possibly do from home - site survey management for offshore wind farms) I know that visiting family is not one of the permitted reasons for travel during the pandemic. I wonder what he put on his passenger locator form as his reason for visiting India. I would hope that he gets a significant fine for travelling when not allowed.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 22, 2021)

And again this is the stupidity of giving them 3 days warning of moving into the red. Every time they've done it people have come pouring back straight away to avoid the quarantine, madness.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 23, 2021)

Could put this in random irritation of the day but it's more covid based and will be more than a day

Mrs prob being made redundant, which isn't great but the fact the schools are being treated this bad. Last sept their reception intake was down due to covid so their budget was set lower because of it so this sept they get that budget and this sept they have normal intake again

So they have to get rid of jobs they actually need

We hoping to find similar job closer to home but she will most likely have to go full time again which she wanted to avoid

Was hoping education would be properly funded after covid ..


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## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Could put this in random irritation of the day but it's more covid based and will be more than a day

Mrs prob being made redundant, which isn't great but the fact the schools are being treated this bad. Last sept their reception intake was down due to covid so their budget was set lower because of it so this sept they get that budget and this sept they have normal intake again

So they have to get rid of jobs they actually need

We hoping to find similar job closer to home but she will most likely have to go full time again which she wanted to avoid

Was hoping education would be properly funded after covid ..
		
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Are there special funding rules because of Covid or is this a result of the 'normal' rules concerning annual intakes?

If the funding is based on intake and there are more this year why has funding been cut and not increased from last year.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 23, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Are there special funding rules because of Covid or is this a result of the 'normal' rules concerning annual intakes?

If the funding is based on intake and there are more this year why has funding been cut and not increased from last year.
		
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Funding is always a year behind apparently

However apparently the head pulled her team in and said it won't be them as she can't afford to replace them , her kids are there as she works with special needs kids 

Still not great for everyone else because of poor funding 

They will still need them


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 23, 2021)

@D-S tagged for info


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## Hobbit (Apr 23, 2021)

Spain's (national)State of Alarm ends on May 9th. Regional Presidents can't implement new restrictions after that date. However, if the end date of a current restriction is after that date, it will remain valid till its end date. Restrictions currently in place have a 15 day limit, though have often been extended for a further 15 days.

Basically, a Regional President could implement a new restriction on the 8th May but it would only last till the 23rd. He can't further extend.

All cross-border, e.g. UK to Spain, is the remit of the national govt.


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

Over the holidays we have gone from an area with no cases in a week to 9 this week.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Over the holidays we have gone from an area with no cases in a week to 9 this week.
		
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Grottles


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Grottles
		
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Grockels and Emets - get off our land


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## road2ruin (Apr 23, 2021)

So, 41 and no underlying health conditions (that I’m aware of) and today I’ve had the invite to get jabbed! Booked in for Thursday.


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So, 41 and no underlying health conditions (that I’m aware of) and today I’ve had the invite to get jabbed! Booked in for Thursday.
		
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Crack on, the 45+ are being a bit slow so you might find them throwing it open to 35+ before to long as the younger it gets the more reluctant the uptake at the moment by the look of things.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 23, 2021)

@Ethan - is there any suggestion that people who have previously had Covid are more likely to have side effects from the vaccine? A totally unscientific view point based only on anecdotal evidence on my part seems to suggest that the people I know who have already had Covid have felt worse after receiving the jab than those who hadn't. Is there any medical opinion or evidence behind this or is it just a random chance based on a small sample size?


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## Ethan (Apr 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



@Ethan - is there any suggestion that people who have previously had Covid are more likely to have side effects from the vaccine? A totally unscientific view point based only on anecdotal evidence on my part seems to suggest that the people I know who have already had Covid have felt worse after receiving the jab than those who hadn't. Is there any medical opinion or evidence behind this or is it just a random chance based on a small sample size?
		
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Yes, this has been reported and it seems quite plausible. Some people also report the 2nd vax had more side effects than the first (although that varies a bit between the different vax available), and that is probably because your immune system is primed and responds more strongly. If you have had Covid, then you are already primed when you get the vax. But Covid cases still should get it, because the immune coverage they get will be broader and probably longer lasting after vax.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 24, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



@Ethan - is there any suggestion that people who have previously had Covid are more likely to have side effects from the vaccine? A totally unscientific view point based only on anecdotal evidence on my part seems to suggest that the people I know who have already had Covid have felt worse after receiving the jab than those who hadn't. Is there any medical opinion or evidence behind this or is it just a random chance based on a small sample size?
		
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My small sample size suggests yes. I felt really rough after the jab - way worse than Covid for me! Hoping the 2nd will have less effect for sure.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 24, 2021)

Booked in for my jab this afternoon. Really looking forward to it now I've read side effects can be worse for people who've had covid 😭. Which wasn't pleasant at the time.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Booked in for my jab this afternoon. Really looking forward to it now I've read side effects can be worse for people who've had covid 😭. Which wasn't pleasant at the time.
		
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I think everyone can be different. I had AZ at about 2pm and started to get goosebumps and chills at around 9pm. After that it was the coldest I've ever felt until about 3am when I was roasting hot and felt very nauseous. Staggered to the bathroom feeling I might keel over - wasn't actually sick but felt like that until about 9am when things improved a lot. After that just a headache and off colour for a couple of days but nothing too bad. 

Next time I'm ready with the hot water bottles!!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 24, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I think everyone can be different. I had AZ at about 2pm and started to get goosebumps and chills at around 9pm. After that it was the coldest I've ever felt until about 3am when I was roasting hot and felt very nauseous. Staggered to the bathroom feeling I might keel over - wasn't actually sick but felt like that until about 9am when things improved a lot. After that just a headache and off colour for a couple of days but nothing too bad.

Next time I'm ready with the hot water bottles!!
		
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Second doze was much better for me

Sore arm straight away

However that was about it 

This was wednesday

I feel run down but my last night of 7 was also wednesday so Id say it's more kicking back into day mode that's making me feel tired


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## Billysboots (Apr 24, 2021)

Had my second Pfizer yesterday. Feel like 💩 today. Small price to pay.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 24, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Had my second Pfizer yesterday. Feel like 💩 today. Small price to pay.
		
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Are you sure that's not the ESL kicking in...


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## Slime (Apr 24, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Had my second Pfizer yesterday. Feel like 💩 today. Small price to pay.
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			Are you sure that's not the ESL kicking in... 

Click to expand...

If it is, I'll be putting him on ignore!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 24, 2021)

Unfortunately had to spend a few hours in A+E today, signs everywhere saying people were not to be accompanied by family members.

It had its normal variety of life, a drunk, old man moaning how long he’d been there, young guy who’d either been beaten up or in a fight.

So a couple approx late 20’s turn up, him with a daffodil lanyard, her wearing a mask, they were there for him, no idea why, but nothing visible and he was walking, talking fine.

He gets called in for Obs, comes out and says to her, the Nurse said she has to leave as per the rules, all hell breaks loose, she starts swearing, threatening the Nurse to the point Security is called! Drunk starts shouting, Old man has a go at her. Absolute disgraceful behaviour.

Totally beyond me why she’d behave like she did, unless she couldn’t read the signs are everywhere and quite large.

Staff just stayed calm and let her cause chaos.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately had to spend a few hours in A+E today, signs everywhere saying people were not to be accompanied by family members.

It had its normal variety of life, a drunk, old man moaning how long he’d been there, young guy who’d either been beaten up or in a fight.

So a couple approx late 20’s turn up, him with a daffodil lanyard, her wearing a mask, they were there for him, no idea why, but nothing visible and he was walking, talking fine.

He gets called in for Obs, comes out and says to her, the Nurse said she has to leave as per the rules, all hell breaks loose, she starts swearing, threatening the Nurse to the point Security is called! Drunk starts shouting, Old man has a go at her. Absolute disgraceful behaviour.

Totally beyond me why she’d behave like she did, unless she couldn’t read the signs are everywhere and quite large.

Staff just stayed calm and let her cause chaos.
		
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Amazing what happens as soon as the pubs are allowed back.

Apparently people can be trusted and that hospitality wasn't an issue (according to pub owners)

Compare to few months ago a&e the daughter was in and out in 2 hours after breaking her arm and the place was empty.


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## road2ruin (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Amazing what happens as soon as the pubs are allowed back.

Apparently people can be trusted and that hospitality wasn't an issue (according to pub owners)

Compare to few months ago a&e the daughter was in and out in 2 hours after breaking her arm and the place was empty.
		
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Why is this the pubs fault? There appeared to be one drunk in A&E.  Doesn’t seem to be much in the story above to start blaming hospitality?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Why is this the pubs fault? There appeared to be one drunk in A&E.  Doesn’t seem to be much in the story above to start blaming hospitality?
		
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Hospitality owners are quite vocal how their industry is covid secure (nothing is covid secure .. you can't see covid) and not one case traced back to them (apparently) 

Yet they can't see whilst they are open again and may be following everything their customers in a main are ok but the idiots like this will cause problems everywhere .. not just spikes but drains on the NHS itself having to deal with them being idiots.


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## road2ruin (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Hospitality owners are quite vocal how their industry is covid secure (nothing is covid secure .. you can't see covid) and not one case traced back to them (apparently)

Yet they can't see whilst they are open again and may be following everything their customers in a main are ok but the idiots like this will cause problems everywhere .. not just spikes but drains on the NHS itself having to deal with them being idiots.
		
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But what I meant is, where do you get it being the pubs fault? In that story about A&E there is only one drunk in there who doesn’t seem to be causing any issues. The couple that came in and caused all the fuss don’t appear to be drunk, she is just a tit intent on causing a row. Just seems a bit of a reach to start blaming this situation on the hospitality industry.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But what I meant is, where do you get it being the pubs fault? In that story about A&E there is only one drunk in there who doesn’t seem to be causing any issues. The couple that came in and caused all the fuss don’t appear to be drunk, she is just a tit intent on causing a row. Just seems a bit of a reach to start blaming this situation on the hospitality industry.
		
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Pubs back equates to more drunken behaviour no?

All the photos I've seen on social media of people in "covid secure pubs" in their groups of 6 mates are really close together no social distancing .


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## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2021)

Had my second jab Friday. Only a bit of a sore arm.


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## Billysboots (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Amazing what happens as soon as the pubs are allowed back.

Apparently people can be trusted and that hospitality wasn't an issue (according to pub owners)

*Compare to few months ago a&e the daughter was in and out in 2 hours after breaking her arm and the place was empty.*

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A & E’s have been quiet primarily because people aren’t going to them with trifling injuries and illness because they’re scared to death of catching Covid at a hospital. It really is that simple. 

For far too long A & E staff have had to deal with malingerers who could have either phoned 111 or their GP. If those people are now doing what they should have been doing all along, instead of clogging up emergency facilities, then it’s a positive to come out of this whole crisis.


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## Billysboots (Apr 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Had my second jab Friday. Only a bit of a sore arm.
		
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Oxford or Pfizer? I had the latter on Friday and felt awful for 24 hours. Right as rain today, although I may ham it up and squeeze another few hours of sympathy out of Mrs BB 😇


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Why is this the pubs fault? There appeared to be one drunk in A&E.  Doesn’t seem to be much in the story above to start blaming hospitality?
		
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pauljames87 said:



			Pubs back equates to more drunken behaviour no?

All the photos I've seen on social media of people in "covid secure pubs" in their groups of 6 mates are really close together no social distancing .
		
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Where is there any proof that this bloke got drunk in a pub?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Hospitality owners are quite vocal how their industry is covid secure (nothing is covid secure .. you can't see covid) and not one case traced back to them (apparently)

Yet they can't see whilst they are open again and may be following everything their customers in a main are ok but *the idiots like this will cause problems everywhere* .. not just spikes but drains on the NHS itself having to deal with them being idiots.
		
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So it's the pub's fault that they're idiots, not the idiots fault for behaving like idiots?


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## Tashyboy (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Pubs back equates to more drunken behaviour no?

All the photos I've seen on social media of people in "covid secure pubs" in their groups of 6 mates are really close together no social distancing .
		
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Son came in last night, he had had a fair old bit to drink. He and a pal had been watching the Chelsea game there were only them 2 in the pub for the last hour and a half. Everyone else was over the rd at another pub listening to a woman murder northern soul on the mike. They went over for a couple. It was rammed with everyone smashed. He came straight home After one. He was in at about 9.30.
He got a phone call this morning off a girl he bumped into last night. She was that smashed she asked him how she got home. 
Now some pubs Ave seen have been very responsible. Others not so with there punters smashed out of there skulls that don’t know how there getting home never mind using social distancing. 
I have been hearing that we will deffo have a third wave and I could not work out how and who. Listening to me lad this morning and last night Ave a fair idea where this wave is coming from. ☹️


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Son came in last night, he had had a fair old bit to drink. He and a pal had been watching the Chelsea game there were only them 2 in the pub for the last hour and a half. Everyone else was over the rd at another pub listening to a woman murder northern soul on the mike. They went over for a couple. It was rammed with everyone smashed. He came straight home After one. He was in at about 9.30.
He got a phone call this morning off a girl he bumped into last night. She was that smashed she asked him how she got home.
Now some pubs Ave seen have been very responsible. Others not so with there punters smashed out of there skulls that don’t know how there getting home never mind using social distancing.
I have been hearing that we will deffo have a third wave and I could not work out how and who. Listening to me lad this morning and last night Ave a fair idea where this wave is coming from. ☹️
		
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It's been a real bug bear. We have been advise to be sensible with all the steps to keep things ticking over to get all restrictions gone

Then people go in their groups of 6 but zero social distancing (not everyone but a lot of groups)... Nobody seems to check if they are a household or a bubble ..

Some places like you say very responsible.. others just want to make up for lost money and everyone in..

My old golf club has set up a marquee for "outside dining" but all the sides are down. Bar one door. Against the rules and inside looks exactly like their restaurant. Built it to get around the rules but then stick the sides down and ignore them 

It's just wrong.


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## Papas1982 (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's been a real bug bear. We have been advise to be sensible with all the steps to keep things ticking over to get all restrictions gone

Then people go in their groups of 6 but zero social distancing (not everyone but a lot of groups)... *Nobody seems to check if they are a household or a bubble .*.

Some places like you say very responsible.. others just want to make up for lost money and everyone in..

My old golf club has set up a marquee for "outside dining" but all the sides are down. Bar one door. Against the rules and inside looks exactly like their restaurant. Built it to get around the rules but then stick the sides down and ignore them

It's just wrong.
		
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if there are 6 of them, you don’t need to check.
only has to be family or bubble if more than 6 now, isn’t it?

agree about the state of people after a few pints, but tbh people have been stuck in doors for the last year. It was bound to happen.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

Papas1982 said:



			if there are 6 of them, you don’t need to check.
only has to be family or bubble if more than 6 now, isn’t it?

agree about the state of people after a few pints, but tbh people have been stuck in doors for the last year. It was bound to happen.
		
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True, just you would hope somewhere would enforce distancing between people ..

I've seen so many pics of groups shoulder to shoulder 

A hairdressers near me posted a pic of first day back and they posed on the floor "exhausted" but they were laying on each other ... A mask doesn't make it fine for crying out loud


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			A & E’s have been quiet primarily because people aren’t going to them with trifling injuries and illness because they’re scared to death of catching Covid at a hospital. It really is that simple.

For far too long A & E staff have had to deal with malingerers who could have either phoned 111 or their GP. If those people are now doing what they should have been doing all along, instead of clogging up emergency facilities, then it’s a positive to come out of this whole crisis.
		
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I was seen very quickly and chatting to one of the Nurses I asked her if she was worried about it getting back to pre-covid levels and unfortunately she stated it was just about there.

I said I was surprised as it seemed quiet and she said what has helped is the family and hangers-on not being allowed in as they tend to stir the trouble (this was before the woman came in), she also stated monday is the worst day as some don’t want to be seen on a weekend. 🤷‍♂️


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## Billysboots (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			True, just you would hope somewhere would enforce distancing between people ..

*I've seen so many pics of groups shoulder to shoulder*

A hairdressers near me posted a pic of first day back and they posed on the floor "exhausted" but they were laying on each other ... A mask doesn't make it fine for crying out loud
		
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Whilst not doubting there is a lot of rule flouting going on, I have a deep mistrust of images used in the media, which are often taken or printed in such a way as to support the agenda. The images of “packed” parks and beaches last summer were classic examples - if you looked close enough you could see they were taken from such an angle/distance and using a lens to ensure people appeared far closer than they were. Either that, or library images have been used time and again.

If you want an example of how an image can tell totally the wrong story take a look on the Daily Fail (intended) Sport section this morning. The image used of the challenge leading to a sending off at West Ham yesterday made the challenge, which in most people’s view wasn’t even a foul never mind a red card, look like a vicious, deliberate stamp.

Skilful people, these journalists and photographers.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 25, 2021)

Having seen what i saw whilst working last night i think there could well be a third wave, but it will predominantly affect this younger, selfish stupid generation who seem to be immune from common sense and think rules designed to protect dont apply to them. And it may sound harsh but if a few of them start getting seriously ill/dying I'm afraid my sympathy levels will be very low to non existent


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst not doubting there is a lot of rule flouting going on, I have a deep mistrust of images used in the media, which are often taken or printed in such a way as to support the agenda. The images of “packed” parks and beaches last summer were classic examples - if you looked close enough you could see they were taken from such an angle/distance and using a lens to ensure people appeared far closer than they were. Either that, or library images have been used time and again.

If you want an example of how an image can tell totally the wrong story take a look on the Daily Fail (intended) Sport section this morning. The image used of the challenge leading to a sending off at West Ham yesterday made the challenge, which in most people’s view wasn’t even a foul never mind a red card, look like a vicious, deliberate stamp.

Skilful people, these journalists and photographers.
		
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These arent the media photos (which I understand your mistrust) these are people I know who I won't be going near for a long time now!

I'm just angry lol took our kids to see my nan for only second time since covid (garden visit , social distance) so my nan couldn't hold her great grand kids  (all of us bar the kids jabbed)

Then the wife's nan in hospital and won't be coming out and because of covid only her grandad can go see her so she won't get to say goodbye 

Think all the taking the mick just grates me further


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## drdel (Apr 25, 2021)

Second jab reminders recd via text and email- well done NHS


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## road2ruin (Apr 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			And it may sound harsh but if a few of them start getting seriously ill/dying I'm afraid my sympathy levels will be very low to non existent 

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Luckily that’s unlikely given that they’re relatively unaffected by this. Remember that, from their point of view, this has been about protecting the vulnerable and the NHS, not themselves and never had been. The vulnerable have now been protected so they’re probably happy to take their chances now.


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## Slime (Apr 25, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



*I have been hearing that we will deffo have a third wave *and I could not work out how and who. Listening to me lad this morning and last night Ave a fair idea where this wave is coming from. ☹️
		
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Where did you hear that from and when, exactly, is it going to strike?


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## road2ruin (Apr 25, 2021)

Slime said:



			Where did you hear that from and when is it going to strike?
		
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Surely we are at the point now through both vaccinations and time of year that a third wave is unlikely. Vaccinations mean that those who are most likely to catch Covid badly and end up in hospital are pretty much all covered. We are getting to the time of year we’re spending time outside is more palatable and outdoor transmission has proven to be very minimal. It was almost non existent last year and we didn’t have the vaccine so I am struggling to see how we can suddenly have this third wave. The obvious caveat is a variant that avoids all vaccinations however it has already been suggested that it’s unlikely to be the case at this point.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Having seen what i saw whilst working last night i think there could well be a third wave, but it will predominantly affect this younger, selfish stupid generation who seem to be immune from common sense and think rules designed to protect dont apply to them. And it may sound harsh but if a few of them start getting seriously ill/dying I'm afraid my sympathy levels will be very low to non existent 

Click to expand...

But if half the population have been jabbed, the 3rd wave will be relatively smaller. If the very young are very safe, and the old are now vaccinated, just what group are at risk? Is the UK reaching the point where any 'wave' will be no worse than the average winter flu?


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			But if half the population have been jabbed, the 3rd wave will be relatively smaller. If the very young are very safe, and the old are now vaccinated, just what group are at risk? Is the UK reaching the point where any 'wave' will be no worse than the average winter flu?
		
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This is most likely correct.

However for me it just stinks that you get those who follow the rules and those who completely disregard them.

Another month until can meet up inside with people

2 months before supposed hugs allowed 

Yet you see those who don't give a rat's about it walking down the street no social distancing .. completely dancing on the graves of those who lost their life's to this illness.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			But if half the population have been jabbed, the 3rd wave will be relatively smaller. If the very young are very safe, and the old are now vaccinated, just what group are at risk? Is the UK reaching the point where any 'wave' will be no worse than the average winter flu?
		
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I guess it all depends on the long term effectiveness of the jab. If it does stop transmission then its job done, if it turns out to not be as effective as hoped in the long turn then who knows?
I did read a scientific opinion that said the UK had reached herd immunity last week, with the number now vaccinated and those with immunity from having had the virus,  obviously though this depends on no nasty vaccine proof strains popping up


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## road2ruin (Apr 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yet you see those who don't give a rat's about it walking down the street no social distancing .. completely dancing on the graves of those who lost their life's to this illness.
		
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With the greatest of respect have you tried walking down the street whilst also social distancing?! Shops are open and locks high streets are pretty busy so to wander about whilst also keeping distance is almost impossible. I think to say that they are ‘completely dancing on the graves of those who have lost lives’ is melodramatic to say the least.


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## RichA (Apr 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Having seen what i saw whilst working last night i think there could well be a third wave, but it will predominantly affect this younger, selfish stupid generation who seem to be immune from common sense and think rules designed to protect dont apply to them. And it may sound harsh but if a few of them start getting seriously ill/dying I'm afraid my sympathy levels will be very low to non existent 

Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I know plenty of younger folks who are blessed with great common sense and responsibility and many middle-aged and older people whose attitude over the last 12 months has been moronically selfish and short-sighted.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			With the greatest of respect have you tried walking down the street whilst also social distancing?! Shops are open and locks high streets are pretty busy so to wander about whilst also keeping distance is almost impossible. I think to say that they are ‘completely dancing on the graves of those who have lost lives’ is melodramatic to say the least.
		
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I'm not talking about average people .. people round here wear masks or give way if they can

I'm talking about those who drunkly walk along with their mate in a headlock etc or massive groups of people like 20 strong who are just people out for a jolly 

Or my colleague at work who comes in and hugs another colleague .. friend hug it's like for crying out loud ... All this social distance to keep us safe at work and you do that just disrespectful


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2021)

RichA said:



			For what it's worth, I know plenty of younger folks who are blessed with great common sense and responsibility and many middle-aged and older people whose attitude over the last 12 months has been moronically selfish and short-sighted.
		
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This is so true. The demographic in our little corner of Spain has a larger than usual collection of (Brit) coffin dodgers. Some are ultra sensible but others are plain stupid, especially with a few beers on board. Equally, the same applies to all the other age groups. Age has never equated to intelligence.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 25, 2021)

I realise ibwaa generalising but i was really commenting on what i witnessed last night. Big groups of lads and girls all merrily wandering from bar to bar arm in arm, climbing all over each other, a young 'lady' emptying the contents of her stomach all over the pavement, at half past 7. She did manage to get her mask down to her chin first (the bus left without her), it went on like this all night. I realise people are glad to be out and enjoying the good weather but this is the kind of behaviour that will see the pubs closed again,  and i wonder who will complain the loudest if that happens?


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## RichA (Apr 25, 2021)

Don't forget that a massive number of the nurses, junior doctors, supermarket staff, etc, who got us through the last 12 months are members of the younger generation.
Twits will be twits at every stage of their lifecycle. The Essex shoppers we derided a few weeks ago all seemed middle-generation. The people who invited their elderly parents over to catch COVID from the grandchildren for christmas, also older.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I realise ibwaa generalising but i was really commenting on what i witnessed last night. Big groups of lads and girls all merrily wandering from bar to bar arm in arm, climbing all over each other, a young 'lady' emptying the contents of her stomach all over the pavement, at half past 7. She did manage to get her mask down to her chin first (the bus left without her), it went on like this all night. I realise people are glad to be out and enjoying the good weather but this is the kind of behaviour that will see the pubs closed again,  and i wonder who will complain the loudest if that happens?
		
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Plus the benders of the rules that are about 

Oh pub has a 2 hour limit.. it's ok we booked a second slot right after in another name 

Oh 6 person limit .. it's ok Dave booked a table aswell 12 of us can go 

All ignored by the landlord and not checked ££££££

"Oh we just want pubs back , be grateful to just go for couple hours just few of us"

When it comes to it.. nope let's get round the rules


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## IanM (Apr 25, 2021)

Visited my mum for the first time inside her Care Home today.   Haven't been in the same room as her since August.   

Quite a milestone. 

The path out of this is as much about Joe Publics' behaviour as any politicians policy


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 26, 2021)

IanM said:



			The path out of this is as much about Joe Publics' behaviour as any politicians policy
		
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Yes but don't forget it will be the politicians' fault though .


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## GB72 (Apr 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Plus the benders of the rules that are about

Oh pub has a 2 hour limit.. it's ok we booked a second slot right after in another name

Oh 6 person limit .. it's ok Dave booked a table aswell 12 of us can go

All ignored by the landlord and not checked ££££££

"Oh we just want pubs back , be grateful to just go for couple hours just few of us"

When it comes to it.. nope let's get round the rules
		
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Sadly this has been common across the board. Take golf, especially during lockdown one. Started as 'I would happily play on my own' to 'why can we no have two balls'  to 'surely it causes no harm to meet up as a 4 ball once we are out of sight of the clubhouse' to 'can we have roll ups' to 'can we buy food to takeaway' to 'what harm is there is standing around chatting whilst we eat our takeaway' to 'lets bring some beers and have a drink in the car part whilst we eat our takeaway food' etc. In a very short time at one local club I know, it had changed from leave your car, you are only allowed on the facilities 10 minutes prior to your tee time to warm up and leave immediately after with all golf in 2 balls to groups meeting in the car park in advance to arrange roll ups, joining in 4 balls after the first hole then all meeting for a can of beer and a 'takeaway' sandwich in the car park after.

Not having a dig at any particular group but there will always be those who try and bend the rules to suit them and those that let it happen. It is not unique to pubs, restaurants or anywhere else unfortunately.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 26, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Sadly this has been common across the board. Take golf, especially during lockdown one. Started as 'I would happily play on my own' to 'hy can we no have to balls'  to 'surely it causes no harm to meet up as a 4 ball once we are out of sight of the clubhouse' to 'can we have roll ups' to 'can we buy food to takeaway' to 'what harm is there is standing around chatting whilst we eat our takeaway' to 'lets bring some beers and have a drink in the car part whilst we eat our takeaway food' etc. In a very short time at one local club I know, it had changed from leave your car, you are only allowed on the facilities 10 minutes prior to your tee time to warm up and leave immediately after with all golf in 2 balls to groups meeting in the car park in advance to arrange roll ups, joining in 4 balls after the first hole then all meeting for a can of beer and a 'takeaway' sandwich in the car park after. 

Not having a dig at any particular group but there will always be those who try and bend the rules to suit them and those that let it happen. It is not unique to pubs, restaurants or anywhere else unfortunately.
		
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Agree completely. Our society posts the group's the day before and we can only eat in those groups at the tables outside and play in them 

Others you just see make larger tables


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## arnieboy (Apr 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Had my second jab Friday. Only a bit of a sore arm.
		
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Same here, feeling sluggish today but that is probably down to the two bottles of wine I shared with my sister in law at lunch yesterday!


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 26, 2021)

Guy I played with yesterday got a text message as we were coming up the 18th fairway yesterday - it was his all clear for a covid test.    Words failed me.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 26, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Guy I played with yesterday got a text message as we were coming up the 18th fairway yesterday - it was his all clear for a covid test.    Words failed me.
		
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Was it a PCR test or a rapid 30 min one? Because if the latter he doesn't had to isolate until he gets the results even if it takes more than 30 mins


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Was it a PCR test or a rapid 30 min one? Because if the latter he doesn't had to isolate until he gets the results even if it takes more than 30 mins
		
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The point is still that the guy thought he might have covid and so should sit tight until he knows for definite. That is the responsible thing to do. He gambled and could have infected others. If he was having the test for work purposes or just for the hell of it then that is a different matter.


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## GB72 (Apr 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The point is still that the guy thought he might have covid and so should sit tight until he knows for definite. That is the responsible thing to do. He gambled and could have infected others. If he was having the test for work purposes or just for the hell of it then that is a different matter.
		
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That is the significant piece of information missing. My wife has to take tests in advance of visiting sites etc, another friend who is a carer has tests all the time and there is a difference between having a test because you have to show that you do not have covid and having a test because there is a chance that you do. 

If it were the later, i would be furious that someone had left me open to that risk.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 26, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Guy I played with yesterday got a text message as we were coming up the 18th fairway yesterday - it was his all clear for a covid test.    Words failed me.
		
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I used to do them at work twice a week till last week.  Lamp test. You post it that morning in a box and got results at 5pm.

Funnily enough last week I got a text while playing golf and announced I didn’t have covid so we could all share a snog. 
Now I’m not sure if I got a funny look by the chap who works at a hospital thinking I did a PCR test or because I said we could snog! 🤣


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 26, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Guy I played with yesterday got a text message as we were coming up the 18th fairway yesterday - it was his all clear for a covid test.    Words failed me.
		
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Surely it depends on the circumstances 

Was it a test for work purposes to ensure he doesn’t have Covid 
or

Was it because he was exposed to someone with symptoms or had symptoms himself


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## pauljames87 (Apr 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The point is still that the guy thought he might have covid and so should sit tight until he knows for definite. That is the responsible thing to do. He gambled and could have infected others. If he was having the test for work purposes or just for the hell of it then that is a different matter.
		
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That was exactly what I was asking?

If PCR test you isolate until the results as you have symtoms or a positive LFT


However If he doing symptomless LFT  twice a week that are 30 mins but can take longer to come through then he did nothing wrong


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## Pathetic Shark (Apr 26, 2021)

No idea - all I knew was that he announced walking on to the 18th green that he had been told his test was negative.     And no I didn't snog him afterwards.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			A & E’s have been quiet primarily because people aren’t going to them with trifling injuries and illness because they’re scared to death of catching Covid at a hospital. It really is that simple.

For far too long A & E staff have had to deal with malingerers who could have either phoned 111 or their GP. If those people are now doing what they should have been doing all along, instead of clogging up emergency facilities, then it’s a positive to come out of this whole crisis.
		
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That's correct. It will probably return to norm though.

There's a triage systems at A&E departments that's supposed to filter out the non urgent cases but it seems that they only set the priorities and don't turn away people who shouldn't be there. I guess it's a fear of getting something wrong.  Maybe there should be a fine or NHS surcharge for anyone treated who should not be there.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Oxford or Pfizer? I had the latter on Friday and felt awful for 24 hours. Right as rain today, although I may ham it up and squeeze another few hours of sympathy out of Mrs BB 😇
		
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Pfizer


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## GreiginFife (Apr 26, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			No idea - all I knew was that he announced walking on to the 18th green that he had been told his test was negative.     *And no I didn't snog him afterwards.*

Click to expand...

You got that out the way at the start?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2021)

RichA said:



			For what it's worth, I know plenty of younger folks who are blessed with great common sense and responsibility and many middle-aged and older people whose attitude over the last 12 months has been moronically selfish and short-sighted.
		
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My own observations (and they are only mine) see so many young people ignoring all the basic rules of 'Face and Space' and it's most of them not a few and has been like this throughout. I do also see some older people breaking rules not not as many and not so widespread, most older people are very good.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			My own observations (and they are only mine) see so many young people ignoring all the basic rules of 'Face and Space' and it's most of them not a few and has been like this throughout. I do also see some older people breaking rules not not as many and not so widespread, most older people are very good.
		
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Imagine that - someone from the older generation says that most older people are very good where as “most” of the younger people are ignoring basic rules - do you think maybe you are just being a touch judgemental and biased ?

I have seen loads ignoring restrictions and lots of them the older generation- in super markets , at golf clubs , pubs 

Maybe the truth is there are people from all generations that have ignored restrictions or basic rules but the majority of the general public have adhered to the basic rules


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## Wabinez (Apr 26, 2021)

Text message this evening. Second jab booked for next week.

glorious.


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## Dannyc (Apr 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Son came in last night, he had had a fair old bit to drink. He and a pal had been watching the Chelsea game there were only them 2 in the pub for the last hour and a half. Everyone else was over the rd at another pub listening to a woman murder northern soul on the mike. They went over for a couple. It was rammed with everyone smashed. He came straight home After one. He was in at about 9.30.
He got a phone call this morning off a girl he bumped into last night. She was that smashed she asked him how she got home.
Now some pubs Ave seen have been very responsible. Others not so with there punters smashed out of there skulls that don’t know how there getting home never mind using social distancing.
I have been hearing that we will deffo have a third wave and I could not work out how and who. Listening to me lad this morning and last night Ave a fair idea where this wave is coming from. ☹️
		
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Seriously pubs open inside with singers on and no police turn up?? 
Of the 4 pubs around my area only 2 are open and it’s strictly outside only with limited opening times


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Imagine that - someone from the older generation says that most older people are very good where as “most” of the younger people are ignoring basic rules - do you think maybe you are just being a touch judgemental and biased ?

I have seen loads ignoring restrictions and lots of them the older generation- in super markets , at golf clubs , pubs

Maybe the truth is there are people from all generations that have ignored restrictions or basic rules but the majority of the general public have adhered to the basic rules
		
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Oh! What a surprise you disagree, I would never have imagined it. Are you suggesting older people are not capable to make comments on what they encounter, that's rather an odd  comment but 'hey ho' you're quite entitled to it.   I repeat that I see many young people not observing rules, a great number of them, if you don't see that I suggest you are either blinkered or you don't get out much.  I did in fact say there were older people ignoring restrictions but not that many.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			Seriously pubs open inside with singers on and no police turn up??
Of the 4 pubs around my area only 2 are open and it’s strictly outside only with limited opening times
		
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It was probably mostly Pensioners.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh! What a surprise you disagree, I would never have imagined it. Are you suggesting older people are not able to make comments on what they encounter, that's rather an odd  comment but 'hey ho' you're quite entitled to it.   I repeat that I see many young people not observing rules, a great number of them, if you don't see that I suggest you are either blinkered or you don't get out much.  I did in fact say there were older people ignoring restrictions but not that many.
		
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Old people blaming younger generations for causing problems shocker. 

I have seen as many old people breaking the rules as I have young. I'd say its been pretty even across all age groups.
I'm more disappointed in the elderly breaking the rules, as one of the main reasons for locking down in the first place was to protect them.

The only people I know who regularly had visitors during the proper lockdowns were my neighbours and in laws. Both in their 70s.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Old people blaming younger generations for causing problems shocker.

I have seen as many old people breaking the rules as I have young. I'd say its been pretty even across all age groups.
I'm more disappointed in the elderly breaking the rules, as one of the main reasons for locking down in the first place was to protect them.

The only people I know who regularly had visitors during the proper lockdowns were my neighbours and in laws. Both in their 70s.
		
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Young people blaming older generations for causing problems. Shocker!  🙄
Again, I agree there are people from all age groups breaking rules but to not notice the prevalence in young people, especially of school age is burying one's head in the sand.


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## DanFST (Apr 26, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Again, I agree there are people from all age groups breaking rules but to not notice the prevalence in young people, especially of school age is burying one's head in the sand.
		
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Ahh blaming children, for being children.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Ahh blaming children, for being children.
		
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Does that mean doing as they want irrespective of the consequences, in that case then yes.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Young people blaming older generations for causing problems. Shocker!  🙄
Again, I agree there are people from all age groups breaking rules but to not notice the prevalence in young people, especially of school age is burying one's head in the sand.
		
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Where did I blame the older generation for anything? You are seeing what you want to see. Like most people do I suppose.

Kids are the least affected, and are sat in school together all day anyway. They are probably also the most tested grouop too. 
So let the get on with enjoying being kids, they have suffered enough over the last year. (yes I know many others have too before you come back at me with that).


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## RichA (Apr 27, 2021)

I haven't conducted any objective studies, but my own anecdotal observations are that kids and young people have dealt with the last year pretty well. My wife is a teacher and we've been constantly impressed by the resilience and responsibility demonstrated by teenagers, the damage to whose education and social lives has been considerable. 
The age groups I've been most disappointed in are my own (middle-aged) and older. Many people I know have continued to see friends and family, failed to properly self-isolate, ignore the face and space rules. The ignorance and arrogance of mature adults in my own family, social and work circles has left me quite disillusioned at times.
The resilience of the younger folks has given me a glimmer of hope for our futures.
We each see what we want to see, I guess.


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## Slime (Apr 27, 2021)

I can only speak for myself and say what I see.
I'm still out in the car on a daily basis and the people I see 'breaking the rules' most regularly are the younger ones in their teenage years.
Yes, I know, all age groups are breaking rules to some degree or other, but the ones *I see* doing this are predominately teenagers.


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## bobmac (Apr 27, 2021)

Slime said:



			I can only speak for myself and say what I see.
I'm still out in the car on a daily basis and the people I see 'breaking the rules' most regularly are the younger ones in their teenage years.
Yes, I know, all age groups are breaking rules to some degree or other, but the ones *I see* doing this are predominately teenagers.
		
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And the exchange of bodily fluids tends to happen more often between teenagers than with old fogies


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 27, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Ahh blaming children, for being children.
		
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You and I know that SR is referring mostly to secondary age rather then primary age children.
If I had a secondary age child  who was incapable of understanding the seriousness of what this pandemic is, then I'd consider him thicker than two short planks. 
Or, if he deliberately ignored conducting himself to keep his family and others free from a killer disease, he would have problems.
One minute we are (rightly) praising those few great kids who have to find themselves being carers  for ill parents etc,  for being so adult ( that it should be the case is another subject, btw)  - the next, we are told they aren't capable of knowing what's going on!

Excuses, excuses!


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## DanFST (Apr 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If I had a secondary age child who was incapable of understanding the seriousness of what this pandemic is, then I'd consider him thicker than two short planks.
		
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Yeah kids are known to make great decisions, they are fully experienced and developed enough to know how to behave.

In all fairness both of your  observations mean nothing and prove nothing. And I shouldn't really have bitten or expected any better.

People have been breaking the rules in all walks of life and ages. At least with children they won't end up in hospital.

I'll leave this from ONS: 41% over 80s who had received the first dose of a vaccine less than three weeks ago reported they had met someone other than a household member, care worker or member of their support bubble, indoors; this appears to contradict lockdown regulations. I'm out


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## pauljames87 (Apr 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You and I know that SR is referring mostly to secondary age rather then primary age children.
If I had a secondary age child  who was incapable of understanding the seriousness of what this pandemic is, then I'd consider him thicker than two short planks.
Or, if he deliberately ignored conducting himself to keep his family and others free from a killer disease, he would have problems.
One minute we are (rightly) praising those few great kids who have to find themselves being carers  for ill parents etc,  for being so adult ( that it should be the case is another subject, btw)  - the next, we are told they aren't capable of knowing what's going on!

Excuses, excuses!
		
Click to expand...

I did see a teenage boy at the bus stop yesterday.. smoking away gobbing on the floor thinking he is cool

Just thought. Infaction


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## GB72 (Apr 27, 2021)

There have been issues in all age groups, the thing is that the younger generation tend to meet in public places (obviously as they do not have their own places) whilst the older generations are able to breach regulations from the comfort of their own home. 

Without looking deeper, it would be easy to assume that it is just the younger generations. I walk past Melton skate park on my way to and from work every day and I would be hard pushed to think of a day during lockdown that there were not a least 20-30 people there, sometimes more. That would lead many to believe that it was just the kids breaking the rules. Since meeting up with people after lockdown, however, it has become clear that the older generation have also been meeting up but, by doing it at home, this is far more concealed and by no means obvious to the wider public. 

You also just need to take a look on pretty much any social media platform and look at all the non socially distanced golf photos and videos. Pretty sure most of them are old enough to know better. 

I believe that it is not just the younger age groups who are breaching regulations but they are the ones who have little choice but to breach them in public.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 27, 2021)

Basically, as you get older you learn to be sneakier. The youth know so little .


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## yandabrown (Apr 27, 2021)

I do feel some sympathy for those in school. They are stuck indoors with the same 30 (ish) people all day (something that adults are not allowed to do because of the virus risk) and then are expected for the rest of the day to be outside (where the risk is lower) but in small groups. It's almost the defnition of mixed messages designed to confuse and irritate any logical thinker which youths are entirely capable of doing.


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## Jamesbrown (Apr 27, 2021)

Seen various groups of people from three NHS workers to my own friend who works for the police break lockdown rules. 
One thing I did notice, and was thankful for is that the local teens who usually spend there afternoons having a kick about on the Rec were never there when they weren’t supposed to be. 

If you want to point fingers at people - you need one for all ages, creeds and professions. 

Some of you may of not seen a soul and seen a general embrace and strict following of the rules. I have seen mostly a general not bothered attitude from most. 
It’s generally down to each other’s exposure and related perception to the outside world beyond the armchair.


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## BiMGuy (Apr 27, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I did see a teenage boy at the bus stop yesterday.. smoking away gobbing on the floor thinking he is cool

Just thought. Infaction
		
Click to expand...

In the way data analysis works on this forum. From your observations, we can deduct that 100% of all non old people smoke and spit thinking it makes them more attractive to the opposite sex. 😂


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			In the way data analysis works on this forum. From your observations, we can deduct that 100% of all non old people smoke and spit thinking it makes them more attractive to the opposite sex. 😂
		
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Don't be ridiculous!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Yeah kids are known to make great decisions, they are fully experienced and developed enough to know how to behave.

In all fairness both of your  observations mean nothing and prove nothing. And I shouldn't really have bitten or expected any better.

People have been breaking the rules in all walks of life and ages. At least with children they won't end up in hospital.

I'll leave this from ONS: 41% over 80s who had received the first dose of a vaccine less than three weeks ago reported they had met someone other than a household member, care worker or member of their support bubble, indoors; this appears to contradict lockdown regulations. I'm out 

Click to expand...

So where did they get those statistics, have they asked every over 80. Come on now!

Here's a view on young people's attitudes, it's from last year but what has changed:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-invincible-ignoring-coronavirus-rules-chief/


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## RichA (Apr 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			So where did they get those statistics, have they asked every over 80. Come on now!

Here's a view on young people's attitudes, it's from last year but what has changed:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-invincible-ignoring-coronavirus-rules-chief/

Click to expand...

The point of an Office of National Statistics survey is that they take a suitable sample and extrapolate the results to give a vaguely realistic statistic. If they ask everyone it's a census. 

The point of a commercial newspaper like The Telegraph is that they cherrypick stories that will resonate with their readership and keep them subscribing. 
Not being a Telegraph subscriber, I couldn't read the article you linked because it's behind a paywall.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2021)

RichA said:



			The point of an Office of National Statistics survey is that they take a suitable sample and extrapolate the results to give a vaguely realistic statistic. If they ask everyone it's a census.

The point of a commercial newspaper like The Telegraph is that they cherrypick stories that will resonate with their readership and keep them subscribing.
Not being a Telegraph subscriber, I couldn't read the article you linked because it's behind a paywall.
		
Click to expand...

The article was referencing a report from the WHO who one might take a little notice from.

Regarding the over 80s, suggesting 41% are having their mates around for a knees up really doesn't sound convincing to me but if you want to believe that's a reason to pick them out as a major group of rule breakers then I guess it's your prerogative.


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## jim8flog (Apr 27, 2021)

*The title -  Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?*

Reading this thread makes me all confused and my brain to start to spin.


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## Hobbit (Apr 27, 2021)

jim8flog said:



*The title -  Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?*

Reading this thread makes me all confused and my brain to start to spin. 

Click to expand...

You must have had the jab.... makes people all fuddled and hot!


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## RichA (Apr 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The article was referencing a report from the WHO who one might take a little notice from.

Regarding the over 80s, suggesting 41% are having their mates around for a knees up really doesn't sound convincing to me but if you want to believe that's a reason to pick them out as a major group of rule breakers then I guess it's your prerogative.
		
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I have no axe to grind and no evidence to single out any group, by age or other characteristic.


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## Imurg (Apr 27, 2021)

Coronavirus has affected me in such a way that it grinds my gears when all I read in this thread is the same old bull coming from all sides.
Its no wonder so many members post so little these days.....
Just have a bloody day off.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 27, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Coronavirus has affected me in such a way that it grinds my gears when all I read in this thread is the same old bull coming from all sides.
Its no wonder so many members post so little these days.....
Just have a bloody day off.
		
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I'm still hopeful of the day when "forumer with entrenched view actually relents" is the headline. 

Hugely doubtful though 😂


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## SocketRocket (Apr 27, 2021)

OK,OK!!  I give in and relent.

My! That feels so good, should have released all that pent up anger before.   It really is so cool to be a cat.


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## Old Skier (Apr 28, 2021)

Busy weekend, 600 appointments fully taken in 2 hours for the 45+. HID on admin and me back out in the cold.


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## GreiginFife (Apr 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			OK,OK!!  I give in and relent.

My! That feels so good, should have released all that pent up anger before.   It really is so cool to be a cat.
		
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One down, many to go.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			One down, many to go.
		
Click to expand...

Holy Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the Wee Donkey, Did I say that!  It must have been a side effect from the jab.


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## Rooter (Apr 28, 2021)

Had my second Pfizer jab yesterday. Sore arm (again) and I feel a bit 'off' and achy. I didn't sleep well with hot and cold spells. but it's a small price to pay! Fingers crossed it starts to subside soon.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 28, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Had my second Pfizer jab yesterday. Sore arm (again) and I feel a bit 'off' and achy. I didn't sleep well with hot and cold spells. but it's a small price to pay! Fingers crossed it starts to subside soon.
		
Click to expand...

The mrs had her second pfizer last week. Had a bit of a reaction, very sore arm she could hardly lift (not great for a pre school worker), which then went to her armpit and down into her breast. She was getting a bit worried until one of the other ladies she works with said the same, and apparently it is listed as a rare side effect. It eased off after a couple of days although she still has a nice bruise on her arm


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Holy Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the Wee Donkey, Did I say that!  It must have been a side effect from the jab.
		
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I’m thinking that the wee donkey will have had little to do with your relenting...as they tend to be stubborn as a mule...🤔


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## pauljames87 (Apr 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			The mrs had her second pfizer last week. Had a bit of a reaction, very sore arm she could hardly lift (not great for a pre school worker), which then went to her armpit and down into her breast. She was getting a bit worried until one of the other ladies she works with said the same, and apparently it is listed as a rare side effect. It eased off after a couple of days although she still has a nice bruise on her arm
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't help the press doing the usual of negative press on side affects etc 

I know you need to report stuff so people know right if I get these I need to speak to a Dr but they love to take it to the extreme and put people into panic mode.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m thinking that the wee donkey will have had little to do with your relenting...as they tend to be stubborn as a mule...🤔
		
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No, it was the jab. Honest Guv.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 28, 2021)

Wife got her 2nd jab today, fingers crossed it goes better 2nd round. 1st jab knocked her for 6 for a wee while.
 I might need to double up with a right hook this time.


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## Rooter (Apr 29, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			The mrs had her second pfizer last week. Had a bit of a reaction, very sore arm she could hardly lift (not great for a pre school worker), which then went to her armpit and down into her breast. She was getting a bit worried until one of the other ladies she works with said the same, and apparently it is listed as a rare side effect. It eased off after a couple of days although she still has a nice bruise on her arm
		
Click to expand...

Good to hear she ok now, mine almost went down to my elbow, through my shoulder and down my back a bit. Now I must stress, it was a bit uncomfortable for 24hrs, nothing more. I didn't require any painkillers etc! Feeling much better today after a decent nights sleep last night!


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## Billysboots (Apr 29, 2021)

I genuinely thought, given we are now over 12 months into the pandemic, that organisations would have got their heads round when large groups need to self isolate.

My eldest is at college and I have to say that the Covid measures are excellent - masks compulsory in all indoor areas, strict seating plans and tables set well apart in large classrooms. So far, so good.

He has received a text today from the college, not NHS Track and Trace, advising him that he needs to self isolate “in accordance with government guidance” because someone in his faculty (not necessarily his own class) has returned a positive test. The problem I have with this is that this doesn’t actually adhere to “government guidance” regarding who is a contact for self isolation purposes.

That guidance is very, very explicit. My lad sits with his four immediate college friends, none of whom are the positive case, and has no contact with anyone else within the college environment which constitutes contact in line with government rules - no face to face, not within 2 metres for 15 minutes, and so on. He is in 2 days a week - into class, work, off campus for lunch etc. He doesn’t mix in common rooms and so on.

Given we now have the additional benefit of easy access to rapid tests, am I alone in thinking his college are being lazy in simply sending his entire faculty, in excess of 150 students, home and advising them to self isolate “in accordance with government guidance” when many of them won’t actually be classed as a contacts in accordance with that guidance in the first place? There are other local schools which are allowing students into lessons, even if a classmate has returned a positive test, providing they test negative at the start of each day.

I really would have thought after all this time that schools and colleges would have worked this out, but to me the approach adopted by my lad’s college is just a lazy cop out.


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## Ethan (Apr 29, 2021)

The AZ clot story is interesting. As of today, the MHRA notes there have been 209 cases and 41 deaths in 22 million vaccinated. 

When this story first broke, I posted here that my concern, based on my drug safety experience, was that reporting rates were always low and delayed, and we had no idea on the "true" number or risk. On March 18th (around 6 weeks ago), the MHRA reported 5 cases and 1 death in 11 million people vaccinated with AZ then, so the rate then was less than 1 in a million. Now it is over 1 in 100,000, a more than 10-fold increase. It is still a rare event, but in my opinion, and that of a number of haematologists and public health experts, it was not taken seriously enough soon enough, and we can't know if we have seen the final total, although it will still almost certainly be a rare event. 

But if you got on a plane this summer and the pilot announced that all the aircraft safety features were down due, but the risk of he plane crashing was only 1 in 100,000, I think even the most relaxed passenger might take a pause and think about it. Especially if there was a different type of plane with fully functioning safety due to depart later.


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## D-S (Apr 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The AZ clot story is interesting. As of today, the MHRA notes there have been 209 cases and 41 deaths in 22 million vaccinated. 

When this story first broke, I posted here that my concern, based on my drug safety experience, was that reporting rates were always low and delayed, and we had no idea on the "true" number or risk. On March 18th (around 6 weeks ago), the MHRA reported 5 cases and 1 death in 11 million people vaccinated with AZ then, so the rate then was less than 1 in a million. Now it is over 1 in 100,000, a more than 10-fold increase. It is still a rare event, but in my opinion, and that of a number of haematologists and public health experts, it was not taken seriously enough soon enough, and we can't know if we have seen the final total, although it will still almost certainly be a rare event. 

But if you got on a plane this summer and the pilot announced that all the aircraft safety features were down due, but the risk of he plane crashing was only 1 in 100,000, I think even the most relaxed passenger might take a pause and think about it. Especially if there was a different type of plane with fully functioning safety due to depart later.
		
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Following your analogy my choice of taking the first available plane or the possibilities of a later one would depend heavily on the reason for the journey, going on holiday? I’ll just wait for the later one, fleeing a war zone? I’ll take the first plane please.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2021)

D-S said:



			Following your analogy my choice of taking the first available plane or the possibilities of a later one would depend heavily on the reason for the journey, going on holiday? I’ll just wait for the later one, fleeing a war zone? I’ll take the first plane please.
		
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Or being safe from a virus which at my age would likely kill me.
Anyway, is not a 1 in a 100 000  chance of the plane crashing not bad odds compared with getting the virus when the AZ became available first?
Now, with many having been vaccinated and protected, the chances of getting the virus make the delay to get the other vaccine more attractive, but , still, 1 in 100000 isn't bad odds on anything a bit iffy!


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The AZ clot story is interesting. As of today, the MHRA notes there have been 209 cases and 41 deaths in 22 million vaccinated. 

When this story first broke, I posted here that my concern, based on my drug safety experience, was that reporting rates were always low and delayed, and we had no idea on the "true" number or risk. On March 18th (around 6 weeks ago), the MHRA reported 5 cases and 1 death in 11 million people vaccinated with AZ then, so the rate then was less than 1 in a million. Now it is over 1 in 100,000, a more than 10-fold increase. It is still a rare event, but in my opinion, and that of a number of haematologists and public health experts, it was not taken seriously enough soon enough, and we can't know if we have seen the final total, although it will still almost certainly be a rare event. 

But if you got on a plane this summer and the pilot announced that all the aircraft safety features were down due, but the risk of he plane crashing was only 1 in 100,000, I think even the most relaxed passenger might take a pause and think about it. Especially if there was a different type of plane with fully functioning safety due to depart later.
		
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But are those figures including those who would have died ( statistically ) anyway from such clots had there not been any vaccinations?
Or, are all the cases and deaths known to have been caused by the vaccine?


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			But are those figures including those who would have died ( statistically ) anyway from such clots had there not been any vaccinations?
Or, are all the cases and deaths known to have been caused by the vaccine?
		
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It is not clear, but remember that much of the stuff you read about, e.g. risk from the contraceptive pill, covers exposure for repeat use over years. The AZ Vax has only been around for a few months, so much shorter exposure and correspondingly much fewer background events in the time window. One would expect the number of younger people to die or experience these specific clots with low platelets elsewhere as being rather low. 

My point, though, was that much of the initial dismissal of the issue failed to take into account the obvious unreliability of the numbers obtained from adverse event reporting, and so inevitably the number has risen sharply. I don't know if it will rise further, or whether there is an additional reservoir of heart attacks and strokes caused by similar mechanisms. It illustrates the need for caution and prudence rather than unknowing reassurance. The MHRA was slow to respond to this. You and I may have different explanations for why that happened.


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Or being safe from a virus which at my age would likely kill me.
Anyway, is not a 1 in a 100 000  chance of the plane crashing not bad odds compared with getting the virus when the AZ became available first?
Now, with many having been vaccinated and protected, the chances of getting the virus make the delay to get the other vaccine more attractive, but , still, 1 in 100000 isn't bad odds on anything a bit iffy!
		
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Getting the virus is not the right comparator. Having a bad outcome from the virus is, and that probability varies across the population.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is not clear, but remember that much of the stuff you read about, e.g. risk from the contraceptive pill, covers exposure for repeat use over years. The AZ Vax has only been around for a few months, so much shorter exposure and correspondingly much fewer background events in the time window. One would expect the number of younger people to die or experience these specific clots with low platelets elsewhere as being rather low. 

My point, though, was that much of the initial dismissal of the issue failed to take into account the obvious unreliability of the numbers obtained from adverse event reporting, and so inevitably the number has risen sharply. I don't know if it will rise further, or whether there is an additional reservoir of heart attacks and strokes caused by similar mechanisms. It illustrates the need for caution and prudence rather than unknowing reassurance. The MHRA was slow to respond to this. You and I may have different explanations for why that happened.
		
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Once the initial population is done with the jab do you reckon they gov will use phizer more for booster jabs etc?


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## RichA (Apr 30, 2021)

Is there a figure for how many thousands of lives the AZ vaccine might have saved in the last 4 months to compare to the 41 deaths it may have caused?


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Once the initial population is done with the jab do you reckon they gov will use phizer more for booster jabs etc?
		
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Yes, they announced a deal for more Pfizer earlier this week. Novavax has also been lined up as a booster vax and the UK has a huge order in for that.



RichA said:



			Is there a figure for how many thousands of lives the AZ vaccine might have saved in the last 4 months to compare to the 41 deaths it may have caused?
		
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The answer to that will vary according to the risk level for different age groups. If the prevalence of adverse events as reported is accurate and complete, and I rather doubt that it is, then the benefit-risk for people under 30 or 40 is questionable, but for older people it is favourable, and more so at older age groups.

But the proper comparison is not AZ vs Covid, it is the marginal benefit-risk of AZ vs alternative vax, and in my opinion, even assuming the baseline efficacy of AZ and Pfizer are the same (and I am not saying I think that), there is a very small risk involved in younger people maybe waiting a week or two longer for an alternative when the background risk of Covid is very low.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 30, 2021)

Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-ne...on-figures-to-be-released-12287305?inApp=true

Things finally starting to look a lot more positive,  especially if the media are reporting it


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## williamalex1 (Apr 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, they announced a deal for more Pfizer earlier this week. Novavax has also been lined up as a booster vax and the UK has a huge order in for that.



The answer to that will vary according to the risk level for different age groups. If the prevalence of adverse events as reported is accurate and complete, and I rather doubt that it is, then the benefit-risk for people under 30 or 40 is questionable, but for older people it is favourable, and more so at older age groups.

But the proper comparison is not AZ vs Covid, it is the marginal benefit-risk of AZ vs alternative vax, and in my opinion, even assuming the baseline efficacy of AZ and Pfizer are the same (and I am not saying I think that), there is a very small risk involved in younger people maybe waiting a week or two longer for an alternative when the background risk of Covid is very low.
		
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 Ethan , re the people who had a blood clot due to the AZ vaccine ?
Would they have possibly been more prone to getting a blood clot if they had actually caught Covid-19 ?


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Ethan , re the people who had a blood clot due to the AZ vaccine ?
Would they have possibly been more prone to getting a blood clot if they had actually caught Covid-19 ?
		
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Not by the same mechanism. They have a background risk, as we all do, which is influenced by age, other risk factors and so on. But the vaccine-related clotting problem occurs due to an antibody forming against the adenovirus vector that holds the genetic code for the spike protein in Covid. Those antibodies then cross-react with platelets so the platelets become sticky and start to form clumps. Those clumps start clot formation. It also has the paradoxical effect of reducing platelets elsewhere as the platelets are all sucked up in these clots, so you can get clots problems in one place and inability to clot problems elsewhere. A similar effect has been described against heparin, ironically used to treat clotting problems. 

In order to estimate the risk of Covid-related clots, you would need to start with the risk of infection in the first place, then factor in the risk of complications, which vary by age etc. Of course, the benefits of vaccination go far beyond preventing clot-related events. The Covid-related clots are probably more driven by direct effects on blood vessels, with a heightened inflammatory state increasing coagulibility, as well as immobility in people who are sick. 

There is no question that these adverse events are very rare, but I was uncomfortable with the speed to which many leapt to dismissing the risk at a time when it was clearly not even close to being properly estimated.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Getting the virus is not the right comparator. Having a bad outcome from the virus is, and that probability varies across the population.
		
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Yes, true. I was looking at it from my personal viewpoint' and those of my age group.Someone of 30 yrs would rightly think they had an excellent chance of "riding out "the virus.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, they announced a deal for more Pfizer earlier this week. Novavax has also been lined up as a booster vax and the UK has a huge order in for that.



The answer to that will vary according to the risk level for different age groups. If the prevalence of adverse events as reported is accurate and complete, and I rather doubt that it is, then the benefit-risk for people under 30 or 40 is questionable, but for older people it is favourable, and more so at older age groups.

But the proper comparison is not AZ vs Covid, it is the marginal benefit-risk of AZ vs alternative vax, and in my opinion, even assuming the baseline efficacy of AZ and Pfizer are the same (and I am not saying I think that), there is a very small risk involved in younger people maybe waiting a week or two longer for an alternative when the background risk of Covid is very low.
		
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Ref the first sentence, last paragraph, isn't it not quite accurate?  At the time the vaccines were first available, some time ago, a person didn't have  the choice of vaccine, nor did one seem to be on the horizon. 
Could one afford to wait, given the figures for infection then.?
Now it is a little different, and , yes, if you were 40  you might be inclined to wait for the later alternative. Mind you, the really latest vaccines coming on stream may in the fullness of time present similar worries as the AZ?!!!
Who knows?


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## Ethan (Apr 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Ref the first sentence, last paragraph, isn't it not quite accurate?  At the time the vaccines were first available, some time ago, a person didn't have  the choice of vaccine, nor did one seem to be on the horizon.
Could one afford to wait, given the figures for infection then.?
Now it is a little different, and , yes, if you were 40  you might be inclined to wait for the later alternative. Mind you, the really latest vaccines coming on stream may in the fullness of time present similar worries as the AZ?!!!
Who knows?
		
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Well, the UK should have ordered much more Pfizer, but I agree that there isn't a patient-driven choice available, but the NHS had been choosing how to deploy the vaccine supply, and there is currently a decent supply available, enough to pause AZ pending sorting out these issues. So the comparisons with the pill or a long haul flight are not really all that relevant. And the numbers have changed quite a bit since they were first made. 

There are reports emerging of another vascular adverse event associated with AZ, capillary leak syndrome, being discussed on medical sites. Not yet known whether truly related, or the scale, but a further illustration that an unbalanced order book makes you a hostage to fortune.


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## pauljames87 (May 2, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56958885

Sounds like their planning for self isolations for contact with someone with covid to end but daily testing if you have contact to see

Could work .. bit of a gamble but what isn't now ?

We do the home tests every 3 days ATM me and the wife they pretty simple once you get the hang


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## ger147 (May 3, 2021)

Just had my 1st Covid vaccine. Had no idea they had yet another new vaccine.

I got the Vodka Martini vaccine so I'm a bit shaken but not stirred...


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## IanM (May 5, 2021)

Went for a massage on my bad shoulder tonight at a gym in Chepstow. 

No masks, no distancing, no evidence of a pandemic ever happening.

Handy


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## backwoodsman (May 6, 2021)

IanM said:



			Went for a massage on my bad shoulder tonight at a gym in Chepstow.

No masks, no distancing, no evidence of a pandemic ever happening.

Handy
		
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Just wondering how a socially distanced massage might work?? Boxing gloves tied on the end of a clothes prop perhaps


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## IanM (May 6, 2021)

I meant in the gym.  Lots of folk stood around chatting,  no masks etc 

Massage area in a separate block, lots if PPE in use etc.


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## jim8flog (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			But if you got on a plane this summer and the pilot announced that all the aircraft safety features were down due, but the risk of he plane crashing was only 1 in 100,000, I think even the most relaxed passenger might take a pause and think about it. Especially if there was a different type of plane with fully functioning safety due to depart later.
		
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  My doc reckons I am at high risk off a blood clot just from flying so I would not get on either


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## Wabinez (May 6, 2021)

2nd jab done.

happy days.


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## Ethan (May 6, 2021)

Some of the Israeli data.

Short version - >90% reduction in symptomatic infection, asymptomatic infection, hospitalisation and death across almost every age group, nearly 100% for some. 

Definitive evidence that the vaccine (Pfizer, in the case of Israel) is highly effective, and almost certainly massively reduces transmission, since you can't transmit if you don't get infection.


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## RichA (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



View attachment 36485


Some of the Israeli data.

Short version - >90% reduction in symptomatic infection, asymptomatic infection, hospitalisation and death across almost every age group, nearly 100% for some.

Definitive evidence that the vaccine (Pfizer, in the case of Israel) is highly effective, and almost certainly massively reduces transmission, since you can't transmit if you don't get infection.
		
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Is it possible that the same efforts we've seen in the last year or so could be mobilised to tackle diseases that have blighted the developing world for decades, or did we just get "lucky" with the nature of COVID?


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## Ethan (May 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			Is it possible that the same efforts we've seen in the last year or so could be mobilised to tackle diseases that have blighted the developing world for decades, or did we just get "lucky" with the nature of COVID?
		
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Well, I think some of the technology, mRNAs for example, had been used for some niche rare diseases, but have now gone mainstream with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, so we should expect to see that technology being used more, which could result in shorter development times. Previously vaccine development took a while to attenuate or weaken the virus, then find a way of packaging it, but mRNA is more like a firmware update, and can be updated and delivered much more quickly. Some of the alliances between scientists, regulators and funding bodies could also work more effectively now with their Covid experience. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation have spent a lot of money on malaria research. I bet their people are looking at applications on these new technologies.


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## GaryK (May 6, 2021)

Had my 1st jab (AZ) mid-March and had the usual side effect of feeling tired / wiped out for a couple of days.

However, since then I have been feeling tired a lot of the time despite getting plenty of sleep.
On several occasions I have fallen asleep early evening and not woken until the next morning - as much as 15 hours sleep, yet felt that I could easily go back to sleep.
I was signed off work for a couple of weeks - back now, although called in sick today.

Had blood tests for a number of checks (kidney, liver, thyroid, cholesterol and vitamin D) - all cam e back fine except for very low Vit-D which I am now taking supplements for.

Question - Has any had similar or know of someone with similar after having the AZ Vaccine?
All that I've found online so far is the usual couple of days of tiredness.

Cheers


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## RichA (May 6, 2021)

GaryK said:



			Had my 1st jab (AZ) mid-March and had the usual side effect of feeling tired / wiped out for a couple of days.

However, since then I have been feeling tired a lot of the time despite getting plenty of sleep.
On several occasions I have fallen asleep early evening and not woken until the next morning - as much as 15 hours sleep, yet felt that I could easily go back to sleep.
I was signed off work for a couple of weeks - back now, although called in sick today.

Had blood tests for a number of checks (kidney, liver, thyroid, cholesterol and vitamin D) - all cam e back fine except for very low Vit-D which I am now taking supplements for.

Question - Has any had similar or know of someone with similar after having the AZ Vaccine?
All that I've found online so far is the usual couple of days of tiredness.

Cheers
		
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AZ1 was mid-March for me too. A bad night's interrupted sleep, but fine since. 
Nobody I know has had any longer-term probs. I know people who know people who said they were bad for a week or 2, but haven't heard of anything worse.

Low Vit D can cause all sorts of fatigue and weakness issues - my wife suffered a few years ago.
I would trust in my doctors, but not be afraid to get a second opinion if supplements, diet and lifestyle changes don't improve things.
Don't underestimate the impact that lockdown has had on all of our mental and physical health. Hopefully, getting back to some kind of normality will sort out many of our niggles.

Good luck.


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## Ethan (May 6, 2021)

GaryK said:



			Had my 1st jab (AZ) mid-March and had the usual side effect of feeling tired / wiped out for a couple of days.

However, since then I have been feeling tired a lot of the time despite getting plenty of sleep.
On several occasions I have fallen asleep early evening and not woken until the next morning - as much as 15 hours sleep, yet felt that I could easily go back to sleep.
I was signed off work for a couple of weeks - back now, although called in sick today.

Had blood tests for a number of checks (kidney, liver, thyroid, cholesterol and vitamin D) - all cam e back fine except for very low Vit-D which I am now taking supplements for.

Question - Has any had similar or know of someone with similar after having the AZ Vaccine?
All that I've found online so far is the usual couple of days of tiredness.

Cheers
		
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The evidence on Vitamin D is mixed, but unless you are taking industrial quantities, taking it is unlikely to do any harm. I have taken it off and on myself. 

You might find that your second vax helps. Some people who get one vax get a partial immune response which causes some of the symptoms you have, a bit like a mild version of long Covid, and the second vax, which brings almost everyone up to a strong immune response fixes it. It is a bit like your immune systems is partially activated but waiting for all its troops to assemble. The vax also helps a lot of people with long Covid, int3restingly, suggesting it is an immunological problem.


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## larmen (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation have spent a lot of money on malaria research. I bet their people are looking at applications on these new technologies.
		
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Hasn’t there been a malaria vaccine developed just recently? There was a mention in one of those comedy panel shows that they did a vaccine but because of Covid it didn’t even make it onto the cover of ‘vaccine monthly’.
While the details are usually made up for fun the premise usually is on topic and therefore I think there is a new vaccine against it, or at least a lot of progress.


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## pauljames87 (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The evidence on Vitamin D is mixed, but unless you are taking industrial quantities, taking it is unlikely to do any harm. I have taken it off and on myself. 

You might find that your second vax helps. Some people who get one vax get a partial immune response which causes some of the symptoms you have, a bit like a mild version of long Covid, and the second vax, which brings almost everyone up to a strong immune response fixes it. It is a bit like your immune systems is partially activated but waiting for all its troops to assemble. The vax also helps a lot of people with long Covid, int3restingly, suggesting it is an immunological problem.
		
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Ethan, somebody mentioned in passing that if you have muscle injuries then the vaccine can make them play up? I bushed off the comment as complete rubbish and Facebook talk for want of a better phrase 

However when I had jab one the next day my feet ached like hell and I suffer from plantar fasciitis .. thought nothing of it 

When golf returned my first round next day my feet were in agony 

Now I feel it all time even with my insoles in rather than before never felt it unless I was bare foot 

Is this just coincidence? Or could be a side effect?

I mean it doesn't effect me too much in sense I still play golf twice a week. Walk round it's just next day and when I get up after sitting now I feel it


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## GaryK (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The evidence on Vitamin D is mixed, but unless you are taking industrial quantities, taking it is unlikely to do any harm. I have taken it off and on myself.

You might find that your second vax helps. Some people who get one vax get a partial immune response which causes some of the symptoms you have, a bit like a mild version of long Covid, and the second vax, which brings almost everyone up to a strong immune response fixes it. It is a bit like your immune systems is partially activated but waiting for all its troops to assemble. The vax also helps a lot of people with long Covid, int3restingly, suggesting it is an immunological problem.
		
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Thanks for your response Ethan....

I work in an office (WFH at the moment) so do not get that much exposure to sunlight, so I would imagine that low Vit D is not a new thing to my body.
The doctor prescribed 1 week supplements @ 40,000UI per day and now dropped to a regular 600UI.
We had some lovely weather during the 2 weeks that I was off sick, so plenty of time resting in the garden to help boost Vit D.

I turned 50 this year and have never felt the sudden and ongoing fatigue that I am experience at the moment.
Something has definitely happened in the past couple of months to cause this, and the only thing out of my normal routine was having the vaccine.
My eating & drinking has remained much the same (slight reduction in alcohol). 
My fitness / weight has been impacted by the pandemic (gyms being shut), but not massively and why symptoms all of a sudden?

Very interesting that some people experience long covid symptoms after first jab and that they go away after the 2nd. 
My 2nd jab in early June - I'll take a look to see if I can rebook / bring it forward.


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## Ethan (May 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ethan, somebody mentioned in passing that if you have muscle injuries then the vaccine can make them play up? I bushed off the comment as complete rubbish and Facebook talk for want of a better phrase

However when I had jab one the next day my feet ached like hell and I suffer from plantar fasciitis .. thought nothing of it

When golf returned my first round next day my feet were in agony

Now I feel it all time even with my insoles in rather than before never felt it unless I was bare foot

Is this just coincidence? Or could be a side effect?

I mean it doesn't effect me too much in sense I still play golf twice a week. Walk round it's just next day and when I get up after sitting now I feel it
		
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I think it depends on the muscle injury. Myalgia (muscle pain) is a feature of various immunological and inflammatory processes, including post-infection and post-vaccination, but it should be fairly short. I guess that if you had plantar fasciitis, which is a chronic inflammatioory condition, then it could have a longer lasting effect. Again, the second one, if you haven't already had it, may help


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## pauljames87 (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think it depends on the muscle injury. Myalgia (muscle pain) is a feature of various immunological and inflammatory processes, including post-infection and post-vaccination, but it should be fairly short. I guess that if you had plantar fasciitis, which is a chronic inflammatioory condition, then it could have a longer lasting effect. Again, the second one, if you haven't already had it, may help
		
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had my second one 21st april

the pain has been less yes but still there

thanks for the info, hopefully will more movement through golf will start to get used to the long walks again and just tail off.. hasnt affected my swing .. still rubbish


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## Ethan (May 6, 2021)

GaryK said:



			Thanks for your response Ethan....

I work in an office (WFH at the moment) so do not get that much exposure to sunlight, so I would imagine that low Vit D is not a new thing to my body.
The doctor prescribed 1 week supplements @ 40,000UI per day and now dropped to a regular 600UI.
We had some lovely weather during the 2 weeks that I was off sick, so plenty of time resting in the garden to help boost Vit D.

I turned 50 this year and have never felt the sudden and ongoing fatigue that I am experience at the moment.
Something has definitely happened in the past couple of months to cause this, and the only thing out of my normal routine was having the vaccine.
My eating & drinking has remained much the same (slight reduction in alcohol).
My fitness / weight has been impacted by the pandemic (gyms being shut), but not massively and why symptoms all of a sudden?

Very interesting that some people experience long covid symptoms after first jab and that they go away after the 2nd.
My 2nd jab in early June - I'll take a look to see if I can rebook / bring it forward.
		
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Low Vit D is extremely common in people who live in places without a lot of sunlight and in people with dark skin because melanin reduces natural Vat D production in response to sunlight. You have had a loading dose to get you back to normal and the 600IU dose is not a large dose but is just for maintenance, which is fine. 

I hate to break it to you, but that tiredness, sore joints and general grumpiness might only get worse. Getting back to a decent fitness routine and eating better would probably help!


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## GB72 (May 6, 2021)

Pfizer giving vaccines to everyone taking part in the Olympics and Paralympics. Not sure how I feel about that considering the need elsewhere.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 6, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Pfizer giving vaccines to everyone taking part in the Olympics and Paralympics. Not sure how I feel about that considering the need elsewhere.
		
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I did a quick Google and the 2016 Olympics had 10,500 athletes, the paralympics around 4,400. In effect, 15,000 vaccinces. Pfizer US, according to Google, can produce 10m vaccines a week so 15,000 is about 15 minutes worth of production (give or take). 30 minutes to cover all athletes with 2 jabs. That is just based on US production.

Huge promotional value for Pfizer, a massive advert going around the world.

I get your point but this allows a huge worldwide event to take place with minimal disruption to the supply chain.


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## GB72 (May 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I did a quick Google and the 2016 Olympics had 10,500 athletes, the paralympics around 4,400. In effect, 15,000 vaccinces. Pfizer US, according to Google, can produce 10m vaccines a week so 15,000 is about 15 minutes worth of production (give or take). 30 minutes to cover all athletes with 2 jabs. That is just based on US production.

Huge promotional value for Pfizer, a massive advert going around the world.

I get your point but this allows a huge worldwide event to take place with minimal disruption to the supply chain.
		
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I see your point and that is why I am in 2 minds and, at the end of they day, Pfizer are free to do what they want but I also think, what if they wanted to move the Lions Tourists up the queue or vaccinate all the teams for the Euros etc, would I be happy if I was still waiting for my jab, not sure I would. 

Now, if the athletes had to make themselves available for promotional material encouraging people to get vaccinated in exchange then I can see it as a possible win/win


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## D-S (May 6, 2021)

I assume they will also need to vaccinate everyone involved, not just the athletes. All the officials, stadium workers, Marshalls, transport workers, coaches, catering staff and cleaners at the village etc. etc. This, I guess, would be a very large number but still a relatively small amount of production time given the scale of vaccine production.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 6, 2021)

Just had 2nd Jab. 👏👏


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## Lord Tyrion (May 6, 2021)

D-S said:



			I assume they will also need to vaccinate everyone involved, not just the athletes. All the officials, stadium workers, Marshalls, transport workers, coaches, catering staff and cleaners at the village etc. etc. This, I guess, would be a very large number but still a relatively small amount of production time given the scale of vaccine production.
		
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The numbers are starting to flow now regarding this. Apparently 60k in total, athletes, coaches, media, ancillary staff etc


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## Ethan (May 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I did a quick Google and the 2016 Olympics had 10,500 athletes, the paralympics around 4,400. In effect, 15,000 vaccinces. Pfizer US, according to Google, can produce 10m vaccines a week so 15,000 is about 15 minutes worth of production (give or take). 30 minutes to cover all athletes with 2 jabs. That is just based on US production.

Huge promotional value for Pfizer, a massive advert going around the world.

I get your point but this allows a huge worldwide event to take place with minimal disruption to the supply chain.
		
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Also sends a good public health message - lots of fit, young people getting the vax.


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## GB72 (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Also sends a good public health message - lots of fit, young people getting the vax.
		
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This is the bit I agree with. Lots of fit young people from a huge spread of backgrounds could be wonderful for getting people to have their vaccination but would like to see some compulsory PR work in exchange for being vaccinated. 

Counter to this though, what if some high profile athletes say no to being vaccinated, that would be front page news for the wrong reason. Are they allowed to compete? Has vaccination just become a pre-requisite for competing.


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## fundy (May 6, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This is the bit I agree with. Lots of fit young people from a huge spread of backgrounds could be wonderful for getting people to have their vaccination but would like to see some compulsory PR work in exchange for being vaccinated. 

Counter to this though, what if some high profile athletes say no to being vaccinated, that would be front page news for the wrong reason. Are they allowed to compete? Has vaccination just become a pre-requisite for competing.
		
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wait until one fails a drug test and blames it on the covid vaccine


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## Blue in Munich (May 6, 2021)

Apparently Chelsea & Leicester will be given 6,250 tickets each.  If you want one you need to submit an ERP (Events Research Programme) consent form by May 10th and have a negative lateral flow test taken after 2.15pm on the 13th of May.  You are also requested to take two PCR tests & mail them in.  You will need to produce a ticket and a negative lateral flow test result at the gate to gain admission.

Presumably if you pay for a ticket & get a positive lateral flow test it comes under the heading tough ... 

What to do...


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## Hobbit (May 6, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Just had 2nd Jab. 👏👏
		
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Worth watching out for blood in your pee.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Worth watching out for blood in your pee.
		
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Ar5e


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 6, 2021)

@Ethan Does the 2nd vaccination work straight away by simply boosting the 1st or is it like the 1st jab and takes a couple of weeks to reach effectiveness?


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## Ethan (May 6, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



@Ethan Does the 2nd vaccination work straight away by simply boosting the 1st or is it like the 1st jab and takes a couple of weeks to reach effectiveness?
		
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You will get pretty good coverage from the first, 80-90% protection, with a good level of antibody protection, and the second kicks that up and helps extend immunity with a good effect on T-cells and immune memory. It probably takes a couple of weeks to get to peak effect but you are already pretty well protected.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You will get pretty good coverage from the first, 80-90% protection, with a good level of antibody protection, and the second kicks that up and helps extend immunity with a good effect on T-cells and immune memory. It probably takes a couple of weeks to get to peak effect but you are already pretty well protected.
		
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Thank you.


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## larmen (May 6, 2021)

fundy said:



			wait until one fails a drug test and blames it on the covid vaccine 

Click to expand...

Only works if they all fail the test, and how likely is it that they  are all on something? Those odds must be south of 80%. Maybe not even 75% ;-)


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## Wabinez (May 6, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Thank you.
		
Click to expand...

had my 2nd Pfizer today and the booklet about the 2nd jab said peak coverage would take seven days 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## Imurg (May 7, 2021)

Not sure if this has been mentioned but it seems to me that booking systems aren't talking to each other..
When I booked my 1st jab back in March I was able to book the 2nd jab too..booked it for 28th May.
Got a text from the GP this morning inviting me to book my 2nd jab....
Went through the process and got a date next Saturday, nearly 2 weeks earlier....
The 2 systems don't seem to sync as I then cancelled the jab on the 28th...
Still, a week tomorrow and I will be immortal and may start fancying Bill Gates


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 7, 2021)

Me, Wife and Son all had 2nd Jab yesterday (Pfizer) Wife’s arm is itchy around injection site, Son is knackered today, feels very lethargic, Me, nothing, arm fine, feeling fine, been out and played Golf.


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## larmen (May 7, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Not sure if this has been mentioned but it seems to me that booking systems aren't talking to each other..
When I booked my 1st jab back in March I was able to book the 2nd jab too..booked it for 28th May.
Got a text from the GP this morning inviting me to book my 2nd jab....
Went through the process and got a date next Saturday, nearly 2 weeks earlier....
The 2 systems don't seem to sync as I then cancelled the jab on the 28th...
Still, a week tomorrow and I will be immortal and may start fancying Bill Gates

Click to expand...

I got an invite for my 1st from my hospital about a month after I got Pfizered via my GP. Told them no thanks, already in the queue elsewhere, pass it on.

They are really just making sure no one is falling through the gaps. No harm in inviting and cancelling invites.


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## SaintHacker (May 8, 2021)

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...ays-outgoing-vaccine-taskforce-chief-12300112

The news reporting something positive? Whatever next...???


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## GG26 (May 8, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently Chelsea & Leicester will be given 6,250 tickets each.  If you want one you need to submit an ERP (Events Research Programme) consent form by May 10th and have a negative lateral flow test taken after 2.15pm on the 13th of May.  You are also requested to take two PCR tests & mail them in.  You will need to produce a ticket and a negative lateral flow test result at the gate to gain admission.

Presumably if you pay for a ticket & get a positive lateral flow test it comes under the heading tough ...

What to do... 

Click to expand...

…and if you are a Leicester fan in a LE postcode you are only permitted to attend if you take a designated coach at a cost of £45.  So you have to sit with 50 other people in a confined space for several hours, rather than permitted to take a car!

Under 16s are also not permitted to attend, so I couldn’t go with my son and therefore haven’t applied for tickets.


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## Blue in Munich (May 8, 2021)

GG26 said:



			…and if you are a Leicester fan in a LE postcode you are only permitted to attend if you take a designated coach at a cost of £45.  So you have to sit with 50 other people in a confined space for several hours, rather than permitted to take a car!

Under 16s are also not permitted to attend, so I couldn’t go with my son and therefore haven’t applied for tickets.
		
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I was in the third tier of about 8 who could apply.  Spoke with my best man who sits with us, we decided to give it a miss.  It won't be anything like a normal cup final atmosphere before, during or after, Mrs BiM can't go because of her arm, so we didn't bother.  Looks like we weren't alone judging by the comments on the chat room about who had got tickets.


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## SaintHacker (May 8, 2021)

GG26 said:



			So you have to sit with 50 other people in a confined space for several hours, rather than permitted to take a car!
.
		
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There will only be about 20 people allowed per coach, hence why the cost is so high


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## Ethan (May 8, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...ays-outgoing-vaccine-taskforce-chief-12300112

The news reporting something positive? Whatever next...???
		
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He is rather optimistic. He is also not an epidemiologist. CV may be largely under control by late summer, but there will still be a significant number of unvaccinated and therefore potential cases around, including children. If any new variants emerge that are more resistant to vaccination, then we take a step or two back. The Govt has spoken of a third wave in the autumn and the need for vigilance for some time yet.


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## Slime (May 9, 2021)

Just had my 2nd jab, a week ahead of schedule.
I made a point of personally thanking every volunteer I saw, they do a great job.

Oh, apparently, chocolate is not a known antidote to vaccine side effects!
I think I'll try it anyway, always looking for a medical break through.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 10, 2021)

The wonderful Daily Fascist, sorry Mail on line.

Lead story screaming at the Government to ease all restrictions immediately.
Very next story - about Indian variant of covid growing very quickly and a real concern meaning restraint should be applied.

So no mixed messages there at all then.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 10, 2021)

From May 17 we can start having casual sex again.     What's that?   Is it like casual water where you can take free relief?


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## SaintHacker (May 10, 2021)

Does this mean I've got to start hugging the wife again?🤔🤬


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## larmen (May 10, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			From May 17 we can start having casual sex again.     What's that?   Is it like casual water where you can take free relief?
		
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But first you haven’t stop washing your hands and finally have a shower instead.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Does this mean I've got to start hugging the wife again?🤔🤬
		
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I’m thinking I might be able to claim that I have to stick to the 1m separation rule...or can that rule be set aside if I wish to participate in cautious hugging...


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## D-S (May 13, 2021)

Firstly good to see that this thread has gone way down the active threads list - maybe COVID isn’t dominating our lives as much?
Just a point re holidays to green list places. If you or a member of your family tests positive on the test that you are obliged to take prior to your return flight, I assume you cannot board your flight back to the UK. Is there any obligation on the hotel, tour operator to house you at your resort/hotel/villa until you are able to produce a negative test, presumably up to 10 days?
If not, that adds a lot more possible hassle/risk to your holiday even if you have been double jabbed - I ask the question as I haven’t heard anything about this in the media just about the cost of tests.


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## BiMGuy (May 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			Is there any obligation on the hotel, tour operator to house you at your resort/hotel/villa until you are able to produce a negative test, presumably up to 10 days?
		
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Personally responsible. You go on holiday knowing the risk. It should be your responsibility to mitigate against it. 

I'm sure this very point will lead to some pictures of a very sad looking family in the Daily Mail, who's once in a lifetime dream holiday to Benidorm was ruined by Covid. And them demanding compensashun from Jet2 for not providing them complimentary 5* accommodation while they isolated.


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## jim8flog (May 13, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Apparently Chelsea & Leicester will be given 6,250 tickets each.  If you want one you need to submit an ERP (Events Research Programme) consent form by May 10th and have a negative lateral flow test taken after 2.15pm on the 13th of May.  You are also requested to take two PCR tests & mail them in.  You will need to produce a ticket and a negative lateral flow test result at the gate to gain admission.

Presumably if you pay for a ticket & get a positive lateral flow test it comes under the heading tough ...

What to do... 

Click to expand...




GG26 said:



			…and if you are a Leicester fan in a LE postcode you are only permitted to attend if you take a designated coach at a cost of £45.  So you have to sit with 50 other people in a confined space for several hours, rather than permitted to take a car!

Under 16s are also not permitted to attend, so I couldn’t go with my son and therefore haven’t applied for tickets.
		
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Interesting news from Portugal today. They are gong to place severe restrictions on how you are allowed to travel to Portugal and how long you can stay for the final.


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## backwoodsman (May 14, 2021)

Had second jab yesterday (AZ vaccine). No reaction whatsoever to it today.


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## GB72 (May 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Interesting news from Portugal today. They are gong to place severe restrictions on how you are allowed to travel to Portugal and how long you can stay for the final.
		
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It looks like Portugal may actually still be in lockdown until after the final.


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## bobmac (May 14, 2021)

No. 2 jab done.


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## Old Skier (May 14, 2021)

Those who have had 2nd dose, info now showing on your NHS App, not the Track & Trace one.


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## SocketRocket (May 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Personally responsible. You go on holiday knowing the risk. It should be your responsibility to mitigate against it.

I'm sure this very point will lead to some pictures of a very sad looking family in the Daily Mail, who's once in a lifetime dream holiday to Benidorm was ruined by Covid. And them demanding compensashun from Jet2 for not providing them complimentary 5* accommodation while they isolated.
		
Click to expand...

More like The Guardian.


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## Hobbit (May 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Does this mean I've got to start hugging the wife again?🤔🤬
		
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She seemed ok when I was hugging your wife…


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## GreiginFife (May 14, 2021)

First dose administered this evening. Hopefully no side effects as I have an 8.48am tee tomorrow in a 4BBB.


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## rudebhoy (May 15, 2021)

Saw on the news last night that the gap between doses is to be reduced from 12 weeks to 8 for over-50s. Is there any detail on how this is to be achieved? The wife and I are due our second dose next month - are they going to bring existing appointments forward? Sounds like a logistical nightmare.


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## pendodave (May 15, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Saw on the news last night that the gap between doses is to be reduced from 12 weeks to 8 for over-50s. Is there any detail on how this is to be achieved? The wife and I are due our second dose next month - are they going to bring existing appointments forward? Sounds like a logistical nightmare.
		
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I had my second yesterday. Was supposed to be in a couple of weeks.
Our local centre was just taking anyone who'd had a jab before late March. There may have been an official communication, but the main conduit seems to have been the local WhatsApp groups...(gossip, basically).


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## Imurg (May 15, 2021)

Fully vaxxed 
Nicely relaxed...


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## rudebhoy (May 15, 2021)

Walked past our local vaccination centre this morning. Stopped to speak to one of the stewards, told him I had an appointment next month for my second jab and mentioned the news about the change from 12 weeks to 8. He said I could have it there and then if I wanted. Job done 😀


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## Reemul (May 15, 2021)

I have my 2nd on Tuesday I am 50, was due end of June, happy to get it


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## Ethan (May 15, 2021)

Had my second Pfizer today, impressively smooth organisation in Swallowfield, near Wokingham. No ill effects so far.


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## Imurg (May 16, 2021)

As with my first jab, the fatigue is starting to kick in big time after about 24 hours..


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## rudebhoy (May 16, 2021)

Imurg said:



As with my first jab, the fatigue is starting to kick in big time after about 24 hours..
		
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I was OK with the first one but I feel exhausted today 24 hours after the second one.


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## AmandaJR (May 16, 2021)

Managed to bring my second jab forward 2 weeks so getting stabbed this Wed. Had a text to advise I could do it but bit of a faff in the end and have to cancel rather than change original appointment and then re-book. All sorted though and hope I don't react like I did to the first one.


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## Dando (May 16, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Fully vaxxed 
Nicely relaxed...

Click to expand...

I read that quickly and thought you were fully waxed!


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## yandabrown (May 16, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Managed to bring my second jab forward 2 weeks so getting stabbed this Wed. Had a text to advise I could do it but bit of a faff in the end and have to cancel rather than change original appointment and then re-book. All sorted though and hope I don't react like I did to the first one.
		
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Ditto to all of this. 🤞


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## Blue in Munich (May 16, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Managed to bring my second jab forward 2 weeks so getting stabbed this Wed. Had a text to advise I could do it but bit of a faff in the end and have to cancel rather than change original appointment and then re-book. All sorted though and hope I don't react like I did to the first one.
		
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For the hassle I can't be bothered; only two and a half weeks away, I'm not risking giving up the appointments & not being able to book new ones.  Just wish I'd seen this post before wasting half an hour on the phone to confirm that you had to cancel to rebook.  That could be made clearer on the website.


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## AmandaJR (May 16, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			For the hassle I can't be bothered; only two and a half weeks away, I'm not risking giving up the appointments & not being able to book new ones.  Just wish I'd seen this post before wasting half an hour on the phone to confirm that you had to cancel to rebook.  That could be made clearer on the website.
		
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Trust me I was very frustrated by the whole episode - "we can use either of your appointment numbers" - it didn't! Then phoned and got the runaround from voice message to voice message. In the end I risked losing the one I had booked to see what the outcome was and plenty free from tomorrow onwards.


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## Blue in Munich (May 16, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Trust me I was very frustrated by the whole episode - "we can use either of your appointment numbers" -* it didn't!* Then phoned and got the runaround from voice message to voice message. In the end I risked losing the one I had booked to see what the outcome was and plenty free from tomorrow onwards.
		
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Is the correct answer; used the one from the initial jab, I didn't exist.  Used the second & it found me.  As we have to go to an adjacent shopping town with plenty of restaurants for our second, we'd decided we were going out for a meal afterwards so we'll stick with plan A.

Reluctant to be critical of the fantastic efforts the NHS have made, but the website isn't their finest hour on the rebooking of earlier jabs.


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## Imurg (May 17, 2021)




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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 17, 2021)

Just given my MiL (91 tomorrow) a hug...saying that with all that’s happened in her life this last year (she lost both of her siblings and a few close friends) it’s been upsetting for my wife especially not being able to be with her and support her knowing how upset she has been, and not able to give her a comforting hug and stay over.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2021)

So we are going to see what increase in cases ,if any ,this new easement of restrictions causes.
No doubt some is expected, but when the figures come out it would be useful , IMHO, for all of us to know the following ( over and above the present figures given)
How many new cases were people who had been vaccinated once
How many new cases were people who had been vaccinated twice.
(Those who had been so vaccinated over three weeks previously.I.e Were considered "protected")

Also, how many of those became hospitalised.

These figures would hopefully spur those anti vaxxers into a change of mind.?


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## bobmac (May 17, 2021)

The day we hit the peak of daily cases in the UK (67,928) was January the 8th.
Not a very special day until you realise that it is 2 weeks after Christmas day.
The peak of daily deaths was 4 days later.
Of course about 30 million have had at least one jab since then but I feel the next 3-4 weeks will be pivotal.
Here's hoping


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## Pathetic Shark (May 17, 2021)

What I did notice this weekend was the influx of fans to sporting events in America.   The NHL playoffs started and there were over 50% capacity in Florida and Vegas.   
The rights and wrongs of this can be debated but it did make me realise the difference between the two countries separated by the Atlantic.
America - the responsibility is very much with the individual.   Over here, nope the state will tell you what to do.
Whether you do it or not is another matter but the ass-covering by politicians and scientists alike is overwhelming at times.  They are all petrified of being exposed at a future inquiry.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 17, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			What I did notice this weekend was the influx of fans to sporting events in America.   The NHL playoffs started and there were over 50% capacity in Florida and Vegas.  
The rights and wrongs of this can be debated but it did make me realise the difference between the two countries separated by the Atlantic.
America - the responsibility is very much with the individual.   Over here, nope the state will tell you what to do.
Whether you do it or not is another matter but the ass-covering by politicians and scientists alike is overwhelming at times.  They are all petrified of being exposed at a future inquiry.
		
Click to expand...

I think the UK is somewhere in the middle of the US approach and say the Chinese approach. That applies to life in general in both countries I would say. The US is very much look after yourself because the state wont. The state definitely dips its toe into our affairs far more but on the whole is not oppressive, depending on your view of course. This situation is pretty unique and interference has been greater although not as all encompasing as in China for example. Whether you like that is a personal or political decision. I know I've talked to Americans about this type of thing before, not as many as you I'm sure, and the cultural differences between the UK and the US surrounding govt and how much impact govt should have are huge.


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## Jamesbrown (May 17, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			What I did notice this weekend was the influx of fans to sporting events in America.   The NHL playoffs started and there were over 50% capacity in Florida and Vegas.  
The rights and wrongs of this can be debated but it did make me realise the difference between the two countries separated by the Atlantic.
America - the responsibility is very much with the individual.   Over here, nope the state will tell you what to do.
Whether you do it or not is another matter but the ass-covering by politicians and scientists alike is overwhelming at times.  They are all petrified of being exposed at a future inquiry.
		
Click to expand...

It depends on the state in America. The conservative states are opening up or have been for awhile with no disastrous effects yet. 
Once ofcom lift the rules on dissenting voices in the media I suspect they’ll be a lot of eye opening investigative journalism never mind the enquiry. Who took back handers where and from who and why. 
Nothing will be done as it’ll be under the guise of - “it could of been worse, best to be over cautious” like swine flu. 

But I’ll be a good tax paying citizen as me and the dogs have been allowed to the pub after work.


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## drdel (May 17, 2021)

I'd wish the media could make it clear that just because something is permitted doesn't mean you should or must do it.


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			It depends on the state in America. The conservative states are opening up or have been for awhile with no disastrous effects yet.
Once ofcom lift the rules on dissenting voices in the media I suspect they’ll be a lot of eye opening investigative journalism never mind the enquiry. Who took back handers where and from who and why.
Nothing will be done as it’ll be under the guise of - “it could of been worse, best to be over cautious” like swine flu.

But I’ll be a good tax paying citizen as me and the dogs have been allowed to the pub after work. 
	View attachment 36656

Click to expand...

Judging by the angle of the photo it’s time for you to go home.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 17, 2021)

One dog is saying to the other "one beer and he pssissed already"


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## Crow (May 17, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			What I did notice this weekend was the influx of fans to sporting events in America.   The NHL playoffs started and there were over 50% capacity in Florida and Vegas.  
The rights and wrongs of this can be debated but it did make me realise the difference between the two countries separated by the Atlantic.
America - the responsibility is very much with the individual.   Over here, nope the state will tell you what to do.
Whether you do it or not is another matter but the ass-covering by politicians and scientists alike is overwhelming at times.  They are all petrified of being exposed at a future inquiry.
		
Click to expand...

Possible reason is that health care in America is paid for by the individual whereas here there's an NHS that needed protection from being overloaded.


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## Tashyboy (May 17, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Fully vaxxed
Nicely relaxed...

Click to expand...

just in time for when you partake in refreshments with the northern hoards on Sunday. 😁


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## Blue in Munich (May 17, 2021)

Re the Indian variant, according to Matt Hancock  most people in hospital in those areas had been eligible for a vaccine but had chosen not to have it - and urged anyone not sure whether to get jabbed to "look at what's happening in Bolton".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57150131

I suppose the good news is that the jab therefore seems to protect against it.


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## pauljames87 (May 17, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Re the Indian variant, according to Matt Hancock  most people in hospital in those areas had been eligible for a vaccine but had chosen not to have it - and urged anyone not sure whether to get jabbed to "look at what's happening in Bolton".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57150131

I suppose the good news is that the jab therefore seems to protect against it.
		
Click to expand...

Someone I know won't take it until next year when more have had it

His reasoning is they refusing to take liability for the vaccine 

If he died for example but where as other jabs they will 

I dunno how true but if it is just take liability if it's making people wary


----------



## chrisd (May 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Someone I know won't take it until next year when more have had it

His reasoning is they refusing to take liability for the vaccine

If he died for example but where as other jabs they will

I dunno how true but if it is just take liability if it's making people wary
		
Click to expand...

His choice

Possibly his funeral


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## pauljames87 (May 17, 2021)

chrisd said:



			His choice

Possibly his funeral
		
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Id be more worried about those around him 

Those who say can't have the jab due to conditions or something 

Everyone tried to talk him round

Not just about protecting yourself


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## Old Skier (May 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Someone I know won't take it until next year when more have had it

His reasoning is they refusing to take liability for the vaccine

If he died for example but where as other jabs they will

I dunno how true but if it is just take liability if it's making people wary
		
Click to expand...

How many more is more.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 17, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Re the Indian variant, according to Matt Hancock  most people in hospital in those areas had been eligible for a vaccine but had chosen not to have it - and urged anyone not sure whether to get jabbed to "look at what's happening in Bolton".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57150131

I suppose the good news is that the jab therefore seems to protect against it.
		
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Yes, good news.But also indications for the real reasons for the surge. As it has always been. Not SD ing, ignoring restrictions and therefore susceptible to taking the virus on board, - of whatever variant.
Thus it was before vaccinations were available, and now , we know that we can lick this through sensible behaviour and vaccinations. 
Take those away, and hey presto, surge time.


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## Blue in Munich (May 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, good news.But also indications for the real reasons for the surge. As it has always been. Not SD ing, ignoring restrictions and therefore susceptible to taking the virus on board, - of whatever variant.
Thus it was before vaccinations were available, and now , we know that we can lick this through sensible behaviour and vaccinations.
Take those away, and hey presto, surge time.
		
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And yet there are plenty, some on here, who consider it unfair that those who have been vaccinated might get greater freedoms, like a vaccination passport for travel.

Here's the proof that it's necessary if certain things are to resume.


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## Beezerk (May 18, 2021)

Spoke to a neighbour in the pub last night, I asked if he'd been jabbed, he said he wasn't getting it as he doesn't believe in it 😳
I couldn't be @rsed to push him on it but I know he and his mate are both huge conspiracy theory nutters.
Dosser!


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## bobmac (May 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Spoke to a neighbour in the pub last night, I asked if he'd been jabbed, he said he wasn't getting it as he doesn't believe in it 😳
I couldn't be @rsed to push him on it but I know he and his mate are both huge conspiracy theory nutters.
Dosser!
		
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I wonder if it's possible to make the vaccine in pill form that dissolves quickly in beer.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

36 Nd over now for the vaccine 

Really pushing them


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## Crazyface (May 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Spoke to a neighbour in the pub last night, I asked if he'd been jabbed, he said he wasn't getting it as he doesn't believe in it 😳
I couldn't be @rsed to push him on it but I know he and his mate are both huge conspiracy theory nutters.
Dosser!
		
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I'd have pointed out to the clown that he wouldn't be in the pub now if people hadn't been vaccinated. Then walked away. He'd be dead to me.


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## AmandaJR (May 18, 2021)

Is it wrong that I think all those refusing the vaccine should be made to work in a Covid ward without PPE?! Might make them think twice about their decision??


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## road2ruin (May 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Re the Indian variant, according to Matt Hancock  most people in hospital in those areas had been eligible for a vaccine but had chosen not to have it - and urged anyone not sure whether to get jabbed to "look at what's happening in Bolton".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57150131

I suppose the good news is that the jab therefore seems to protect against it.
		
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Yep, good news and I am fairly confident that the data will go some way to supporting that. Also shows that it is very much a cultural thing (in the main) with regards vaccine refusal amongst BAME communities. Hopefully there will be renewed impetus within those communities from those who are in a position to do so to ensure that they do get themselves jabbed if eligible as they're going to be the ones dying in a couple of weeks time.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Is it wrong that I think all those refusing the vaccine should be made to work in a Covid ward without PPE?! Might make them think twice about their decision??



Click to expand...

Not wrong at all. Time and time again the authorities try all sorts to get these idiots to take the vaccine. Adverts, cajoling, etc but it's time to bring out the stick.
Refuse the vaccine and be prepared to take the consequences. Passports, refusal to communal areas like pubs, cinemas etc. 
With right to refuse comes the duty to live by the consequence.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 18, 2021)

I am really looking forward to the story in the media when a family get turned away from the airport and they lose their holiday because they had not had the vaccine because they believed more in conspiracy theories and civil liberties.  And everyone else waves at them as their flight takes off.


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## Beezerk (May 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Not wrong at all. Time and time again the authorities try all sorts to get these idiots to take the vaccine. Adverts, cajoling, etc but it's time to bring out the stick.
Refuse the vaccine and be prepared to take the consequences. Passports, refusal to communal areas like pubs, cinemas etc.
With right to refuse comes the duty to live by the consequence.
		
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It's funny, he said he'd only have one should it be required to go on holiday 🙈


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2021)

drdel said:



			I'd wish the media could make it clear that just because something is permitted doesn't mean you should or must do it.
		
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The media needs those who are saying it is permitted to be more definite on the circumstances that it is so. 

Where there is uncertainty or latitude/flexibility in direction or decision making, individuals will fill that void with whatever best suits their own wishes, circumstances or purposes.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The media needs those who are saying it is permitted to be more definite on the circumstances that it is so. 

Where there is uncertainty or latitude/flexibility in direction or decision making, individuals will fill that void with whatever best suits their own wishes, circumstances or purposes.
		
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Come on, no government can spell out every circumstance. Credit had go to to be given for people to use common sense within the "new freedom".
Should they have said' you can meet indoors but no touching?'
Clearly an unsustainable advice. Because they know that saying you can meet up as family and friends indoors will mean some will go overboard with the touching and proximity in enclosed  rooms for a long time, and with whom, and some will still use an element of caution etc.
So, again, everything isn't the governments responsibility.


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## Ethan (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Someone I know won't take it until next year when more have had it

His reasoning is they refusing to take liability for the vaccine

If he died for example but where as other jabs they will

I dunno how true but if it is just take liability if it's making people wary
		
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Your friend is an idiot. When a Govt brings forward authorisation for a medicine ahead of the normal regulatory application by the company, they pick up liability because they "own" the application, as it were. When the vaccines get their full regular approval and reverts to the manufacturer, so does liability. 

Still, kinda impressive to see someone risking death, a rather unpleasant one, or a stay in ICU or long Covid over a misunderstood and essentially irrelevant point of principle.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 18, 2021)

What are the chances of creating a vaccine to stop people being nobs?


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Your friend is an idiot. When a Govt brings forward authorisation for a medicine ahead of the normal regulatory application by the company, they pick up liability because they "own" the application, as it were. When the vaccines get their full regular approval and reverts to the manufacturer, so does liability. 

Still, kinda impressive to see someone risking death, a rather unpleasant one, or a stay in ICU or long Covid over a misunderstood and essentially irrelevant point of principle.
		
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He's in today and said he is trying to book the vaccine now

So must have talked some sense into him


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## bobmac (May 18, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			What are the chances of creating a vaccine to stop people being nobs?
		
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## GB72 (May 18, 2021)

Earlier appointments for second jabs coming up around my area of you are willing to travel a little to Boston. Small convoy out of my village on Sunday full of people eager to get this done as quickly as possible. I cannot book mine for dates earlier than 2 weeks time and my existing appointment is only 5 days later so I will hold on those few days unless I get a text to move me forward.


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## GB72 (May 18, 2021)

One question that has been rattling around in my head. Some comments on the radio last night about how certain areas in the North West could face local lockdown due to the indian variant spreading and that these areas have been in some form of lockdown for much of the year. So, why always this area in the North West. At every stage of the pandemic they seem to have got it worse than most. Is is social conditions, is it mass disobedience, I really do not know but it does seem to be that if there is a hot spot, it seems to be Bolton and Blackburn.


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## Blue in Munich (May 18, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Is it wrong that I think all those refusing the vaccine should be made to work in a Covid ward without PPE?! Might make them think twice about their decision??



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It is wrong; they should be charged for the medical care they receive, and then be made to work in a Covid ward without PPE. 😉


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## Blue in Munich (May 18, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			What are the chances of creating a vaccine to stop people being nobs?
		
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## road2ruin (May 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			One question that has been rattling around in my head. Some comments on the radio last night about how certain areas in the North West could face local lockdown due to the indian variant spreading and that these areas have been in some form of lockdown for much of the year. So, why always this area in the North West. At every stage of the pandemic they seem to have got it worse than most. Is is social conditions, is it mass disobedience, I really do not know but it does seem to be that if there is a hot spot, it seems to be Bolton and Blackburn.
		
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This is a pretty sweeping statement I know however I woudl say that given the local populations in those areas it is a cultural thing. Traditions and the way things are done taking priority over the requests to stay at home, don't go into other peoples homes and mix in numbers etc.


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## Rooter (May 18, 2021)

I think we need to remember there is a big difference between refusing the vaccine, and not having a vaccine due to other reasons... a lot of bandwagon-jumping and assumptions that unvaccinated people are that way by choice. (not specific to the above, but I think its worth raising)


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## road2ruin (May 18, 2021)

Rooter said:



			I think we need to remember there is a big difference between refusing the vaccine, and not having a vaccine due to other reasons... a lot of bandwagon-jumping and assumptions that unvaccinated people are that way by choice. (not specific to the above, but I think its worth raising)
		
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Agree but in the areas that are hotspots at the moment they are generally made up of a high number of BAME communities where it has been well documented about their hesitancy towards having the vaccine. This isn't due to not being able to this is largely due to disinformation being spread within their communities and they will pay the price unless their own communities can get together and try and get the message across that it is for their own good to have it done especially given the way a lot of them live with multi-generational households where protecting the elderly is a lot harder with so many under one roof.


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## SaintHacker (May 18, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I'd have pointed out to the clown that he wouldn't be in the pub now if people hadn't been vaccinated. Then walked away. He'd be dead to me.
		
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Unless it was his round next..


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## D-S (May 18, 2021)

My first vaccine details are now on my NHS app with a QR code to scan as proof. So passports are a step closer and as we approach most adults being offered the jab, I will be happy for vaccination status to allow or deny access to public areas. Refuseniks are welcome to be so but they need to be shielding and not in public places


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2021)

Rooter said:



			I think we need to remember there is a big difference between refusing the vaccine, and not having a vaccine due to other reasons... a lot of bandwagon-jumping and assumptions that unvaccinated people are that way by choice. (not specific to the above, but I think its worth raising)
		
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I don't think for one minute that there are any here who are making the assumptions you speak of. That's why the word "refusal " is almost always used.
I do feel very sorry for anyone who wants the vaccine but cannot take it, for whatever genuine reason. Perhaps Ethan knows what is available to these unfortunate people to get protected. Is there an oral delivery available , etc.?
Whatever can be done for a genuine person, I'm sure the authorities will do it, if it can be done.


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## HampshireHog (May 18, 2021)

2nd Jab today, Vaccination Centre empty, in and out in 5 mins queued for 45 mins to get into the building for the 1st one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on, no government can spell out every circumstance. Credit had go to to be given for people to use common sense within the "new freedom".
Should they have said' you can meet indoors but no touching?'
Clearly an unsustainable advice. Because they know that saying you can meet up as family and friends indoors will mean some will go overboard with the touching and proximity in enclosed  rooms for a long time, and with whom, and some will still use an element of caution etc.
So, again, everything isn't the governments responsibility.
		
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Talking about the media reporting simply reflecting what we are being told - not what the government is saying.  If advice is not definitive and allows discretion, then media will use their discretion and report as they feel best suits their audience.


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## Ethan (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			He's in today and said he is trying to book the vaccine now

So must have talked some sense into him
		
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Good for him. It takes a bigger man to change their mind.


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## Ethan (May 18, 2021)

Rooter said:



			I think we need to remember there is a big difference between refusing the vaccine, and not having a vaccine due to other reasons... a lot of bandwagon-jumping and assumptions that unvaccinated people are that way by choice. (not specific to the above, but I think its worth raising)
		
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There aren't many good medical reasons not to have it. Allergy to specific components of the vax is pretty much the only one. Pregnancy is a relative one and is a temporary state anyway.


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## GB72 (May 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There aren't many good medical reasons not to have it. Allergy to specific components of the vax is pretty much the only one. Pregnancy is a relative one and is a temporary state anyway.
		
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Is there any difference between the component elements of the various vaccines to allow people with certain allergies to have one of the vaccines? Even with the potential for an allergic reaction, is it possible to monitor and treat the symptoms of the reaction whilst the vaccine does its thing (maybe possible now with free hospital beds) or am I watching too many US medical dramas and these things do not happen outside of House etc.


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## Rooter (May 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There aren't many good medical reasons not to have it. Allergy to specific components of the vax is pretty much the only one. Pregnancy is a relative one and is a temporary state anyway.
		
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What about social and economic reasons for not having the call? I heard lady on the radio earlier describing how some people she knew of, couldn't afford the bus fare to get to the vaccination center for example.


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## D-S (May 18, 2021)

Rooter said:



			What about social and economic reasons for not having the call? I heard lady on the radio earlier describing how some people she knew of, couldn't afford the bus fare to get to the vaccination center for example.
		
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There were taxi companies local to me offering free rides to vaccination centres, I am sure there is help out there if you ask for it.


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The media needs those who are saying it is permitted to be more definite on the circumstances that it is so.

Where there is uncertainty or latitude/flexibility in direction or decision making, individuals will fill that void with whatever best suits their own wishes, circumstances or purposes.
		
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GB is a society that does not like to be seen as authoritarian and unfortunately expects people to use their common sens. Your permitted to go tombstoning but it’s not advisable.


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## Rooter (May 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			There were taxi companies local to me offering free rides to vaccination centres, I am sure there is help out there if you ask for it.
		
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Thats awesome to hear! having to ask though goes against a lot of peoples way though, we know that from food banks and kids meals etc. 

Anyway, I was playing devils advocate, but its not a coincidence I don't think, that the recent hotspots of outbreaks are from the lower end of the earning scale towns etc.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There aren't many good medical reasons not to have it. Allergy to specific components of the vax is pretty much the only one. Pregnancy is a relative one and is a temporary state anyway.
		
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Another colleague doesn't want to have it as she hasnt had kids yet and she worried what it might do to her chances as there hasn't been trails on peoples fertility long term

Can kind of understand


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## bobmac (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Another colleague doesn't want to have it as she hasnt had kids yet and she worried what it might do to her chances as there hasn't been trails on peoples fertility long term

Can kind of understand
		
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So she's ignored the experts and believed the scare mongerers on social media.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So she's ignored the experts and believed the scare mongerers on social media.

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Whilst the experts are correct when you listen to her point it is valid 

The trilas for the vaccine started what march last year earliest? Is there really anyone who's been pregnancy to term throughout the trial and then affects on people trying?


All well and good for us to say.. I've got 3 kids and don't want more so don't care about that side of the vaccine


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## road2ruin (May 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So she's ignored the experts and believed the scare mongerers on social media.

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To be fair I can see both sides. I have no idea what age Paul's colleague is however if I were a 20 something woman maybe I would think twice before having the vaccine. I'm in an age group whereby Covid is highly unlikely to badly affect me and so maybe I would look at the risk and decide I'd rather not have it. I'm not saying that's right but I can actually understand the thought process.


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## SteveW86 (May 18, 2021)

got a message from my doctors this morning that I can now book my first jab, 2 minutes later and I am booked in for tomorrow afternoon. A very easy process, a little bit surprising as I hadnt chased about it at all. I turned 35 last week and have no underlying health issues so looks like we are getting through the list pretty quickly


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## GreiginFife (May 18, 2021)

Had my first dose on Friday. Sat and Sun felt fine. Yesterday felt a bit ropey. Today feel like cack. 

Sore throat and, for some odd reason, dull ache in the back of my head/neck. Feeling a bit warm and tired as well.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair I can see both sides. I have no idea what age Paul's colleague is however if I were a 20 something woman maybe I would think twice before having the vaccine. I'm in an age group whereby Covid is highly unlikely to badly affect me and so maybe I would look at the risk and decide I'd rather not have it. I'm not saying that's right but I can actually understand the thought process.
		
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When she told me I was like fair enough 

She's 34 today and my other colleague is what 25 and she is unsure because she too wants kids 

Personally i was jab me up asap. Others have their reservations , I think cases like that whilst medically could be wrong I wouldnt judge people who thought that 

Look at thalidomide all them years ago


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## Old Skier (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst the experts are correct when you listen to her point it is valid

The trilas for the vaccine started what march last year earliest? Is there really anyone who's been pregnancy to term throughout the trial and then affects on people trying?


All well and good for us to say.. I've got 3 kids and don't want more so don't care about that side of the vaccine
		
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If she dies she will never be pregnant not withstanding the unknown effects covid may have on fertility.


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## road2ruin (May 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If she dies she will never be pregnant not withstanding the unknown effects covid may have on fertility.
		
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It's about risk, are her age she is extremely unlikely to die from Covid. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree but I can see her point of view.


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## D-S (May 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It's about risk, are her age she is extremely unlikely to die from Covid. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree but I can see her point of view.
		
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Let’s hope she doesn’t contract it and pass it on to others who are vulnerable- it is not purely a self interest decision. Let’s hope she will be extra vigilant and take the precautions whilst she enjoys the freedoms that are allowed due to others ‘taking a risk’ in being inoculated for their own and the common good.


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## road2ruin (May 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			Let’s hope she doesn’t contract it and pass it on to others who are vulnerable- it is not purely a self interest decision. Let’s hope she will be extra vigilant and take the precautions whilst she enjoys the freedoms that are allowed due to others ‘taking a risk’ in being inoculated for their own and the common good.
		
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Almost all of the vulnerable either vaccinated or have been offered the vaccine so hopefully that situation is less likely to happen.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			Let’s hope she doesn’t contract it and pass it on to others who are vulnerable- it is not purely a self interest decision. Let’s hope she will be extra vigilant and take the precautions whilst she enjoys the freedoms that are allowed due to others ‘taking a risk’ in being inoculated for their own and the common good.
		
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Love the judgements on this site at times really do

A friend of My wife's is pregnant

The advise was no pregnant people jabbed 

Then it changed she was offered phizer only as AZ was still no

She wasn't sure .. the advise changed pretty quick so is it rushed?

They left a week to think and then they were told it's too late now so she will be unvaccinated until the baby arrives 

Really can't judge others decisions unless in their shoes

Also women have far more to think about than men in life anyways and this jab has huge thought process to those of child bearing age


Like I've said I didn't even think twice, and nor did my wife as we are done with kids 

But others who aren't .. should not be judged.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Almost all of the vulnerable either vaccinated or have been offered the vaccine so hopefully that situation is less likely to happen.
		
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Bolton?


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## jim8flog (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Someone I know won't take it until next year when more have had it

His reasoning is they refusing to take liability for the vaccine

If he died for example but where as other jabs they will

I dunno how true but if it is just take liability if it's making people wary
		
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6 months plus time in testing, 33 million and counting. How many more is he going to wait for?

Edit just seen your later comment


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			6 months plus time in testing, 33 million and counting. How many more is he going to wait for?
		
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I posted a few posts later that we spoke today and he has decided to book


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## jim8flog (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I posted a few posts later that we spoke today and he has decided to book
		
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 just got to your later comment. Good on him.


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## Blue in Munich (May 18, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If she dies she will never be pregnant not withstanding the unknown effects covid may have on fertility.
		
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Does she actually know if she is capable of conceiving; whilst it might be a reasonable assumption that she could, some women and men are infertile, could she be putting off the jab for something that can't happen anyway?


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## Ethan (May 18, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Is there any difference between the component elements of the various vaccines to allow people with certain allergies to have one of the vaccines? Even with the potential for an allergic reaction, is it possible to monitor and treat the symptoms of the reaction whilst the vaccine does its thing (maybe possible now with free hospital beds) or am I watching too many US medical dramas and these things do not happen outside of House etc.
		
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Yes, there are differences between the other ingredients (known as excipients) used in manufacturing. Both the major vaccines have some, but neither of them have both of the common ones, so all but a vanishingly small number of people should be able to find one to suit them.


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## rudebhoy (May 18, 2021)

We are now being told we should not travel to countries on the amber list for leisure.

In that case, why have an amber list? Surely just a green list and a red list would be better?

In related news, 150 holiday flights left the UK yesterday to go to countries on the amber list - what proportion of those holidaymakers will actually properly self-isolate on their return?


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## Ethan (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Another colleague doesn't want to have it as she hasnt had kids yet and she worried what it might do to her chances as there hasn't been trails on peoples fertility long term

Can kind of understand
		
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Tell her that she won't have too many babies if she dies from Covid. Or if some of the downstream inflammatory effects of Covid affect the reproductive system. Both of these are very much more likely than the vaccine affecting fertility. 

OK, maybe a bit harsh.

This scare story betrays a lack of understanding of how vaccines work. There is no plausible way in which vaccines could affect fertility. Medicines can be distributed throughout the body or act locally. Covid vaccines act locally, not going far from the deltoid into which they were injected, and only stick around for about 48 hours. Their job is simply to present an antigen or, in this case, a genetic code or mRNA , to the immune system which then kicks into action. This is the same immune system that acts daily to deal with bacteria and other intruders. The immune system then does the heavy lifting and creates the antibodies etc. The only plausible effect on fertility would be if the antibodies generated cross reacted with something vital to reproduction. If that were the case, it is highly likely to have happened already because everybody has been exposed to numerous coronaviruses already, and the same immune system has been doing the work.


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## pauljames87 (May 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Tell her that she won't have too many babies if she dies from Covid. Or if some of the downstream inflammatory effects of Covid affect the reproductive system. Both of these are very much more likely than the vaccine affecting fertility.

OK, maybe a bit harsh.

This scare story betrays a lack of understanding of how vaccines work. There is no plausible way in which vaccines could affect fertility. Medicines can be distributed throughout the body or act locally. Covid vaccines act locally, not going far from the deltoid into which they were injected, and only stick around for about 48 hours. Their job is simply to present an antigen or, in this case, a genetic code or mRNA , to the immune system which then kicks into action. This is the same immune system that acts daily to deal with bacteria and other intruders. The immune system then does the heavy lifting and creates the antibodies etc. The only plausible effect on fertility would be if the antibodies generated cross reacted with something vital to reproduction. If that were the case, it is highly likely to have happened already because everybody has been exposed to numerous coronaviruses already, and the same immune system has been doing the work.
		
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However phizer is a complete new way to make a vaccine is it not? And that's what the under 40s will get in the main

So if it's a new way how do we know the affects yet? Unlike tried and tested methods that AZ used?


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## Swinglowandslow (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However phizer is a complete new way to make a vaccine is it not? And that's what the under 40s will get in the main

So if it's a new way how do we know the affects yet? Unlike tried and tested methods that AZ used?
		
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Ethan would have said if he wasn't talking about all vaccine makes


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## Ethan (May 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However phizer is a complete new way to make a vaccine is it not? And that's what the under 40s will get in the main

So if it's a new way how do we know the affects yet? Unlike tried and tested methods that AZ used?
		
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Pfizer is an mRNA vaccine, but the mRNAs have very specific functions , in this case to stimulate creation of a spike protein, locally at the site of injection. The spike protein cannot affect fertility and it wouldn't get anywhere near the organs involved anyway. mRNA medicines have previously been produced for other diseases. The fact this one is a vaccine is irrelevant.

The AZ vaccine is based on technology used in previous vaccines, but it introduces a new element which has proven to be an issue, the viral vector. In some ways, I think it is more complicated and capable of causing more effects, although there is no plausible theory why it could affect the reproductive system. 

The original claim is based on the fact that there is a protein on the placenta which looks vaguely like the spike protein, so antibody against the spike protein could attack this. But the external appearance of the protein is irrelevant, because antibody binding is based on receptors and the receptors on the spike protein are pretty unique to the coronavirus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			We are now being told we should not travel to countries on the amber list for leisure.

In that case, why have an amber list? Surely just a green list and a red list would be better?

In related news, 150 holiday flights left the UK yesterday to go to countries on the amber list - what proportion of those holidaymakers will actually properly self-isolate on their return?
		
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Those who feel they have to do what’s required of them by the government; actually pay that much attention to what the government requires of them, and have a wider social responsibility rather than just to themselves.


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## 4LEX (May 18, 2021)

Question for Ethan,

I had the first AZ jab and had no side effects to start with apart from sore arm. I then had pins and needles, raging pulse in my arm for 3-4 weeks that stopped me sleeping and the arm felt like someone had tightened it.

Got a message about my second jab and just curious as to what you'd advise. I'm early 30's, fit, average BMI etc. Should I go for it or wait and get a different second jab in a few months once trials about mixing are complete?


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## jim8flog (May 18, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			We are now being told we should not travel to countries on the amber list for leisure.

In that case, why have an amber list? Surely just a green list and a red list would be better?

In related news, 150 holiday flights left the UK yesterday to go to countries on the amber list - what proportion of those holidaymakers will actually properly self-isolate on their return?
		
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 Interesting point about amber list countries on our local news. Some countries will not let you in in unless you have a very good reason to be let in. ( e.g. they had brought up Germany ).


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## ColchesterFC (May 18, 2021)

I'm due to go to Netherlands for work on Sunday and am struggling to find anywhere to get the required PCR test before I travel. Have spoken to a couple of places and they've said that they are getting hundreds of calls a day from people wanting to get the test to go on holiday. The clinic I went to last time before my trip in March hasn't got any availability until 14th June.


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## Ethan (May 18, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Question for Ethan,

I had the first AZ jab and had no side effects to start with apart from sore arm. I then had pins and needles, raging pulse in my arm for 3-4 weeks that stopped me sleeping and the arm felt like someone had tightened it.

Got a message about my second jab and just curious as to what you'd advise. I'm early 30's, fit, average BMI etc. Should I go for it or wait and get a different second jab in a few months once trials about mixing are complete?
		
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A sore arm for a day or so is pretty common, but that sounds like maybe the jab hit a nerve. It doesn't sound like an allergic reaction. I would tell the people at the clinic when you go for the second one and maybe use the other arm.


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## rudebhoy (May 18, 2021)

One hundred and ten direct flights from India have landed in the UK in the three and a half weeks since the country was placed on the travel Red List amid rising concerns about Covid-19 variants, LBC can reveal.
Analysis of flight data by LBC shows that direct flights from India have continued to land in the UK at a rate of 4.5 per day, despite growing fears about a variant that has spread rapidly and quickly become dominant across much of India.


While the UK government has banned direct flights from 11 other Red List countries that have direct flights to the UK, including Brazil and South Africa, it did not adopt a similar policy when India was placed the list. Flights are also allowed from neighbouring Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Boris Johnson warned last week that rapidly rising cases of the named B1.617.2 variant, first detected in India, could derail plans to end social distancing on 21st June.

Last Friday, the Prime Minister held a press conference to warn the British public of ministers’ and scientific advisers’ fears over the variant. On that day alone, seven direct flights from India arrived in the UK.


NHS Test and Trace data shows that, in the 14 days between 22nd April and 5th May, 4,258 travellers arriving from India undertook Covid tests - far more than the number arriving from any other country in the world, except Pakistan. Of those arriving from India during the 14 day period, 299 (7%) tested positive for Covid.

Read more: Indian variant more transmissible but vaccines appear effective, Matt Hancock says

Read more: Ministers urge greater vaccine uptake as cases of Indian Covid variant grow


If this trend continued for the most recent fortnight, almost 8,500 passengers would be expected to have arrived from India since the country was placed on the Red List. Around 600 of them are likely to have been infected with Covid-19.


Test and Trace data suggests that almost half (46%) of those who tested positive after arriving from India were infected with a worrying variant – either a “Variant of Concern” or a “Variant Under Investigation”.

While almost all passengers from Red List countries have to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days, concerns have repeatedly been voiced about passengers from high-risk countries mixing with other passengers and airport staff while queuing for hours at UK airports. Currently, passengers use the same airport terminals as those arriving from Amber and Green-rated countries.

Read more: 'Why are we letting planes in?': Furious caller's outburst as Indian variant rises in UK

Industry sources told LBC that airport bosses raised concerns about this problem during discussions with the government in January, but claimed that the Department for Transport “did not engage” on the matter. Today, Boris Johnson’s spokesperson today suggested it was airports' responsibility to ensure queues at arrivals were Covid secure.

British Airways and Virgin are operating a combined several flights each day from Mumbai and Delhi, while BA also offers routes from Bengaluru and Hyderabad. Indian airlines Air India and Vistara are also flying several times a week.


- words fail me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 18, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			One hundred and ten direct flights from India have landed in the UK in the three and a half weeks since the country was placed on the travel Red List amid rising concerns about Covid-19 variants, LBC can reveal.
Analysis of flight data by LBC shows that direct flights from India have continued to land in the UK at a rate of 4.5 per day, despite growing fears about a variant that has spread rapidly and quickly become dominant across much of India.


While the UK government has banned direct flights from 11 other Red List countries that have direct flights to the UK, including Brazil and South Africa, it did not adopt a similar policy when India was placed the list. Flights are also allowed from neighbouring Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Boris Johnson warned last week that rapidly rising cases of the named B1.617.2 variant, first detected in India, could derail plans to end social distancing on 21st June.

Last Friday, the Prime Minister held a press conference to warn the British public of ministers’ and scientific advisers’ fears over the variant. On that day alone, seven direct flights from India arrived in the UK.


NHS Test and Trace data shows that, in the 14 days between 22nd April and 5th May, 4,258 travellers arriving from India undertook Covid tests - far more than the number arriving from any other country in the world, except Pakistan. Of those arriving from India during the 14 day period, 299 (7%) tested positive for Covid.

Read more: Indian variant more transmissible but vaccines appear effective, Matt Hancock says

Read more: Ministers urge greater vaccine uptake as cases of Indian Covid variant grow


If this trend continued for the most recent fortnight, almost 8,500 passengers would be expected to have arrived from India since the country was placed on the Red List. Around 600 of them are likely to have been infected with Covid-19.


Test and Trace data suggests that almost half (46%) of those who tested positive after arriving from India were infected with a worrying variant – either a “Variant of Concern” or a “Variant Under Investigation”.

While almost all passengers from Red List countries have to quarantine in a hotel for 10 days, concerns have repeatedly been voiced about passengers from high-risk countries mixing with other passengers and airport staff while queuing for hours at UK airports. Currently, passengers use the same airport terminals as those arriving from Amber and Green-rated countries.

Read more: 'Why are we letting planes in?': Furious caller's outburst as Indian variant rises in UK

Industry sources told LBC that airport bosses raised concerns about this problem during discussions with the government in January, but claimed that the Department for Transport “did not engage” on the matter. Today, Boris Johnson’s spokesperson today suggested it was airports' responsibility to ensure queues at arrivals were Covid secure.

British Airways and Virgin are operating a combined several flights each day from Mumbai and Delhi, while BA also offers routes from Bengaluru and Hyderabad. Indian airlines Air India and Vistara are also flying several times a week.


- words fail me.
		
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My words might get me an infraction and ban 🤫


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## bobmac (May 19, 2021)

I can only guess how the lady feels about taking the vaccine because of what she may of heard, but a 2 min search found this.....

_"There is currently no evidence that any vaccines, including Covid-19 vaccines, cause fertility problems — problems trying to get pregnant," according to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention's page about the safety of the vaccines for women's reproductive health._

It's a sad state of affairs when people are more inclined to believe some unknown person on twitter rather than the experts in their field.
Tell your friend to do her own research and ask herself the question ''would the scientists have risked their reputations and released the vaccine without testng it first?''
Of course not.
The bottom line is taking the vaccine will not affect her chances of having children, not taking the vaccine and possibly dying will.


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I can only guess how the lady feels about taking the vaccine because of what she may of heard, but a 2 min search found this.....

_"There is currently no evidence that any vaccines, including Covid-19 vaccines, cause fertility problems — problems trying to get pregnant," according to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention's page about the safety of the vaccines for women's reproductive health._

It's a sad state of affairs when people are more inclined to believe some unknown person on twitter rather than the experts in their field.
Tell your friend to do her own research and ask herself the question ''would the scientists have risked their reputations and released the vaccine without testng it first?''
Of course not.
The bottom line is taking the vaccine will not affect her chances of having children, not taking the vaccine and possibly dying will.
		
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However Bob, read that again carefully 

There is currently no evidence

That's what I read to her when discussing it

She simply said what if down the line evidence shows it does?

Again fair enough 

There is not "bottom line"

It's far far far too easy for us men to second guess what a lady would think of something that we just brush off because our level our understanding is different 

There are others who won't even question it , but if somebody is worried all this "oh it's far more risky to get covid and die" phrase of speaking just makes people switch off and even less likely to listen to reason.


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## bobmac (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			She simply said what if down the line evidence shows it does?
		
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You've got to trust someone, do the research yourself and trust the science.

In the months to come, hopefully she will realise there is no evidence the vaccine affects fertility, she will take the vaccine and everything will be fine.

It's just one of the curses of social media where one person's wacky idea can spead round the world in seconds and become very dangerous.


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You've got to trust someone, do the research yourself and trust the science.

In the months to come, hopefully she will realise there is no evidence the vaccine affects fertility, she will take the vaccine and everything will be fine.

It's just one of the curses of social media where one person's wacky idea can spead round the world in seconds and become very dangerous.
		
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But people assume it's from social media

Can't somebody just be worried about it without it be blanketly be branded brain washed by social media?


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## bobmac (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But people assume it's from social media

Can't somebody just be worried about it without it be blanketly be branded brain washed by social media?
		
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Where else did she get the idea from, certainly not any creditable source.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2021)

I feel it best to suggest, those that don't understand what Amber means with regards to travel they stop driving.

For those normal suspects that don't want to understand what Amber means, carry on as normal, it's entertaining.


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where else did she get the idea from, certainly not any creditable source.
		
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People can actually have ideas without it being from somewhere ...

Do you never hear something and think woah that sounds a bit worrying? 

Doesn't have to be based on case by case anaylise can just be a gut feeling 🤷

But easier to judge label anyone's fears as social media listeners ...


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## Ethan (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However Bob, read that again carefully

There is currently no evidence

That's what I read to her when discussing it

She simply said what if down the line evidence shows it does?

Again fair enough

There is not "bottom line"

It's far far far too easy for us men to second guess what a lady would think of something that we just brush off because our level our understanding is different

There are others who won't even question it , but if somebody is worried all this "oh it's far more risky to get covid and die" phrase of speaking just makes people switch off and even less likely to listen to reason.
		
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This is not a gender question. The gender mix of people who conduct these trials, and who issue the advice, is very gender balanced. I suspect the Royal College of Midwives, who have opined on this, is not well gender balanced but in a way that should assure the punter.

It is not only that there is no evidence, there is also no plausible mechanism by which the vaccine could cause infertility. For a fertility problem to occur, you would need some part of the vaccine reaching, either directly or indirectly, the reproductive organs or some of the hormones involved in signalling. The vaccine simply does not move around the systemic circulation, it stays locally in the muscle, and the person's immune system takes care of the immune response. The antibodies and other substances generated have been extensively studied and all are either familiar and specific to the covid response, or are reasonably well understood, for example the antibody causing clotting problems with AZ.

Someone saying in an ever increasingly loud voice "Prove to me that it doesn't" will never be satisfied. Proving a negative is often impossible. Would the punter suggest a clinical trial of thousands of women who get the vaccine shortly after a positive pregnancy test, follow them for the course of their pregnancy, maybe follow the kids to school to check for neuro-developmental delay?

Although, to be fair, some people experience a headache after the vax, so I suppose "Not tonight, darling" could affect fertility, but hopefully not for very long.


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## D-S (May 19, 2021)

I have no problem with someone’s *right* to believe whatever they like and to decide that what goes into their bodies but they must realise that they have the *responsibility* to act accordingly and not risk spreading the disease to others.


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## Ethan (May 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			I have no problem with someone’s *right* to believe whatever they like and to decide that what goes into their bodies but they must realise that they have the *responsibility* to act accordingly and not risk spreading the disease to others.
		
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You have the right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.


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## Jamesbrown (May 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			I have no problem with someone’s *right* to believe whatever they like and to decide that what goes into their bodies but they must realise that they have the *responsibility* to act accordingly and not risk spreading the disease to others.
		
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They also have a choice not to risk their own lives for the benefit of others.


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You have the right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
		
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That I agree with entirely, and if facts are incorrectly stated should be corrected 

Whitty stated the vaccine was a choice and he believed everyone should have the right to choose wasn't it? But In his opinion everyone should want to take it 

Nobody should be shamed into taking


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## bobmac (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Nobody should be shamed into taking
		
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But their decision should be based on the scientific evidence available, not gossip that could endanger her life.


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			But their decision should be based on the scientific evidence available, not gossip that could endanger her life.
		
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Although I don’t agree with the lady I do agree with her right to choose providing she understands fully the implications to her and others.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Although I don’t agree with the lady I do agree with her right to choose *providing she understands fully the implications to her and others.*

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Understanding without any consequences or responsibility for her or any others actions is pointless though.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 19, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			They also have a choice not to risk their own lives for the benefit of others.
		
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But whatever they decide after exercising their "rights", they must accept the consequences. So, if they become disadvantaged by vaccine passport then so be it. Don't start moaning about " our rights being eroded."


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			But whatever they decide after exercising their "rights", they must accept the consequences. So, if they become disadvantaged by vaccine passport then so be it. Don't start moaning about " our rights being eroded."
		
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Bingo

I think the passports are a clever idea to get uptake levels up

If they come in I would bet my house on her taking the jab as she loves holidays 

Be interested to see what she actually does when it's her time to decide properly 

Problem is her age group (mine aswell but I had precondition) have had more time to overthink things 

I mean I'll be honest I had my AZ I was excited in Feb. Didn't give a second thought 

Then when came to second dose the blood clots started being reported 

Now it's not for the under 40s

So I was a bit scared for My second dose but I took it 

Wifes is Friday. She takes the pill so I'm worried for her but she will take it 

I can see how people get more worried as time goes on with all the new decisions and out comes


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## Old Skier (May 19, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Understanding without any consequences or responsibility for her or any others actions is pointless though.
		
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She, like many others will make the judgment on what best suits her and not what the professionals will say. I suppose things like thalidomide is still to raw in some peoples memories.


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## RichA (May 19, 2021)

To be fair, some of the opinions being expressed on here have changed in the last few months. Previously, caution was being suggested by many in light of negative side-effects, rather than some of our more cavalier approaches to vaccination.
The only difference is that most of us are now vaccinated and feeling a little more confident in it. She hasn't had that little confidence boost and is cautious about the health of her future children.
I think her nervousness is more understandable than my previous lack of concern.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			She, like many others will make the judgment on what best suits her and not what the professionals will say. I suppose things like thalidomide is still to raw in some peoples memories.
		
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Was more thinking along the lines of what risk (if any) they will pose to the greater population and if we’ll eventually get to the point of having restrictions placed on their lifestyle that can be backed up by legislation.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 19, 2021)

Everyone has the right to decide whether they want the vaccine or not.   What cannot be negotiable is everyone else having to suffer continuous restrictions because of them.

No vaccine?  Fine - stay inside, don't go to pubs, don't go on holiday, don't mix with other people.    Your choice.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 19, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I feel it best to suggest, those that don't understand what Amber means with regards to travel they stop driving.

For those normal suspects that don't want to understand what Amber means, carry on as normal, it's entertaining.
		
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Amber means essential travel only - and according to Matt Hancock and the one in charge that absolutely does not encompass a need for a holiday...and so 150 flights out of U.K. yesterday filled with travellers with essential travel needs...of course...yes. Everything clear and being followed.


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## Jamesbrown (May 19, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Everyone has the right to decide whether they want the vaccine or not.   What cannot be negotiable is everyone else having to suffer continuous restrictions because of them.

No vaccine?  Fine - stay inside, don't go to pubs, don't go on holiday, don't mix with other people.    Your choice.
		
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But people are allowed, have been and are doing that without their vaccines already?
Once the majority have been vaccinated and we shift back into a lockdown come autumn who will you blame then?


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Amber means essential travel only - and according to Matt Hancock and the one in charge that absolutely does not encompass a need for a holiday...and so 150 flights out of U.K. yesterday filled with travellers with essential travel needs...of course...yes. Everything clear and being followed.
		
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Without going Policitcal, the failure to make it law instead of just guidelines makes it impossible for everyone

Cancellations for those who say moved a flight from last year won't be done if the flight is flying as they could travel 

Ryan air offering cheap prices to amber places , people will no doubt see as a cheap way to get around having PCR tests (cost wise) as they would be paying about the same as going to a green country mayb 

If they work from home they could isolate easy when at home 

It's not law only guidelines so why on earth would they stick to it?

Then you have the Indian varrient that's taken over 

We gave a 4 day window for people to come back .. all cases traced back to them people I believe I read somewhere? 

Maybe going forward we could say right everyone back. You will have to quarantine but we will pay for it .. as it's cheaper than lockdown


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## road2ruin (May 19, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Once the majority have been vaccinated and we shift back into a lockdown come autumn who will you blame then?
		
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If the majority have been vaccinated then there should never be a reason for another lockdown unless a variant arises that is genuinely deadly to the general population.


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## Ethan (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That I agree with entirely, and if facts are incorrectly stated should be corrected

Whitty stated the vaccine was a choice and he believed everyone should have the right to choose wasn't it? But In his opinion everyone should want to take it

Nobody should be shamed into taking
		
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People shouldn't be shamed, but they should be made aware that they do bear a degree of social responsibility both for the risk of making other people sick but also from the burden placed on society if they themselves get sick, for example displacing others from ICU beds. They should also be provided with accurate information. And in some cases, they should expect to trade some privileges or opportunities if they do not wish to get vaccinated, for example they can't work in certain healthcare roles and may not be able to travel to some places.


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## Ethan (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Without going Policitcal, the failure to make it law instead of just guidelines makes it impossible for everyone

Cancellations for those who say moved a flight from last year won't be done if the flight is flying as they could travel

Ryan air offering cheap prices to amber places , people will no doubt see as a cheap way to get around having PCR tests (cost wise) as they would be paying about the same as going to a green country mayb

If they work from home they could isolate easy when at home

It's not law only guidelines so why on earth would they stick to it?

Then you have the Indian varrient that's taken over

We gave a 4 day window for people to come back .. all cases traced back to them people I believe I read somewhere?

Maybe going forward we could say right everyone back. You will have to quarantine but we will pay for it .. as it's cheaper than lockdown
		
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It is pretty clear the Govt strategy is now 'We have done everything we can to open up the economy and safeguard the population, but some selfish people didn't take our advice'.


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is pretty clear the Govt strategy is now 'We have done everything we can to open up the economy and safeguard the population, but some selfish people didn't take our advice'.
		
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Operation blame the public 

I mean as of Monday we could hug people 

But be careful..


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## Pathetic Shark (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Operation blame the public

I mean as of Monday we could hug people

But be careful..
		
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Yes I have my court hearing over that scheduled for next week.  Apparently hugging Kylie Minogue was not laid down as being essential in the latest Government guidelines in spite of what I might have thought


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## Lord Tyrion (May 19, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Yes I have my court hearing over that scheduled for next week.  Apparently hugging Kylie Minogue was not laid down as being essential in the latest Government guidelines in spite of what I might have thought  

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Hugging was fine, squeezing was not


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## BiMGuy (May 19, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Yes I have my court hearing over that scheduled for next week.  Apparently hugging Kylie Minogue was not laid down as being essential in the latest Government guidelines in spite of what I might have thought  

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Hugging was fine. It was the breaking in to give her a hug that was the problem 😂


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## Rooter (May 19, 2021)

I'm starting to get annoyed with people.

Saturday morning, we were due a family day out for my lads birthday. my smallest 2 woke with a cough and a temp, so that was it, all thoughts of leaving the house off. Lateral flow tests are done, both negative. Lots of colds going around. Get to Monday, they are still showing a temperature, so off school. Tuesday, still hot and with croup-sounding coughs, so that's it, PCR tests booked and we were in for the 8 am session that morning!
All kids off school, wife cancels going to the office, mum phoned and banned from visiting!!
Got the results at 2 AM today (Less than 24 hours for results!!!!) and both negative, both woken up with no temp's so everyone back to normal. Phew!

Now that's how it should be, if everyone did that, we would be in a better position.

My mate at school who has a kid in the same class as mine, WhatsApp's me yesterday afternoon, 'Need to moan and you are not here (I was isolating!!), a mum here chatting away to another mum with her 8yr old in the queue. Tells her mate he is not in school because he has been for a covid test and they are waiting on the results!!!' 


WTF is wrong with people???


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## AmandaJR (May 19, 2021)

Second jab all done. Much better organisation than the first one and whisked through without passing go! Just hoping that the side effects will be equally swift and/or non existent.


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## Reemul (May 19, 2021)

Had my 2nd Jab yesterday, all went fine. Arm really sore last night and today, hardly got a wink of sleep. No other side effects so far.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Operation blame the public 

I mean as of Monday we could hug people 

But be careful..
		
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Where did the government suggest hugging people? They merely made the easement of restrictions such that people and families could meet indoors.
That would inevitably mean some would hug. But creating situations where something is possible is not the same as recommending it.
From what I saw it was the Media hyping up the hugging!


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## SaintHacker (May 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Operation blame the public

I mean as of Monday we could hug people

But be careful..
		
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Or maybe operation let the sensible ones who have heeded advice and are now protected finally get on with their lives?


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## pauljames87 (May 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Or maybe operation let the sensible ones who have heeded advice and are now protected finally get on with their lives?
		
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Lol if you think so.. if and I say if we get a surge and another lockdown the blame will firmly be on the public for being careless


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

Should probably be a random irritation but its covid related. My son finishes school next week. Ordinarily he would be on study leave but as there's no exams this year he's finished. You would think after missing nearly a year of face to face teaching they might keep the school year going just this once until July to help those that have missed out on so much, but oh no. And teachers wonder why they get so little sympathy each time they call yet another strike 🙄


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## Swinglowandslow (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Lol if you think so.. if and I say if we get a surge and another lockdown the blame will firmly be on the public for being careless
		
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 And quite rightly. (I am reading your post that you are being somewhat sarcastic and think it is the government fault for allowing meetings and  huggings. If you are being strictly as written, my apologies)

People are now allowed to travel to Durdle Dor, but the government isn't responsible for those that go "tomb stoning " there🙄


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			And quite rightly. (I am reading your post that you are being somewhat sarcastic and think it is the government fault for allowing meetings and  huggings. If you are being strictly as written, my apologies)

People are now allowed to travel to Durdle Dor, but the government isn't responsible for those that go "tomb stoning " there🙄
		
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What about last summer eat out to help out was firmly pushed 

Soon as that happened the surge of cases could be linked to that 

But it was the public's fault for going out and not being careful?

It's like this amber list .. imo it should be all travel banned but we are where we are but by making it guidance not law they put it on the person to make the risk and some will .. and some will lose out money because it's guidance and not law flight refunds don't have to be paid 

These mostly are holidays moved from last year to this year rather than refunded as people thought it was the best option


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What about last summer eat out to help out was firmly pushed

Soon as that happened the surge of cases could be linked to that
		
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No it didnt. It was fine all summer, it didnt start ramping up until late in the autumn when the weather turned crap and all the religious festivals started. You want to blame the government for everything but there comes a point when they've done all they can and people have to take responsibility for following the guidance and the rules set out to protect them.


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No it didnt. It was fine all summer, it didnt start ramping up until late in the autumn when the weather turned crap and all the religious festivals started. You want to blame the government for everything but there comes a point when they've done all they can and people have to take responsibility for following the guidance and the rules set out to protect them.
		
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This is getting far too Policitcal but if you think last summer all they could do was done then sorry but your wrong there


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No it didnt. It was fine all summer, it didnt start ramping up until late in the autumn when the weather turned crap and all the religious festivals started. You want to blame the government for everything but there comes a point when they've done all they can and people have to take responsibility for following the guidance and the rules set out to protect them.
		
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Not what this study found and the autumn increase was made worse when Schools and Uni’s opened early Sept.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo...ns_up_by_between_8_and_17_new_research_finds/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No it didnt. It was fine all summer, it didnt start ramping up until late in the autumn when the weather turned crap and all the religious festivals started. You want to blame the government for everything but there comes a point when they've done all they can and people have to take responsibility for following the guidance and the rules set out to protect them.
		
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But let’s not forget the 5 day Christmas holiday around which many worked their plans for the festive season, a holiday period that became a single day...and threw all their plans into disarray...unless...and then there was a huge spike in the weeks after Christmas and New Year.

But again, simple observations around why things are and have not been so easy and clear cut drift instantly into the policitcal and cannot be discussed.

My religious Christmas was severely impacted by the pandemic but we adhered absolutely to what was required of us so don’t go blaming religion.  As you have said - blame people.


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## AmandaJR (May 20, 2021)

No reaction like last time to jab number two thank goodness. Just hoping the stuff went in as it was a weird one - she took what seemed like ages after I felt the needle go in and shuffled around a bit then said "ummm, yes that's fine"! Arm hurts so it must have


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Not what this study found and the autumn increase was made worse when Schools and Uni’s opened early Sept.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo...ns_up_by_between_8_and_17_new_research_finds/

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Ok but the point being it wasnt the eat out to help out scheme that caused it, as has been suggested


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No it didnt. It was fine all summer, it didnt start ramping up until late in the autumn when the weather turned crap and all the religious festivals started. You want to blame the government for everything but there comes a point when they've done all they can and people have to take responsibility for following the guidance and the rules set out to protect them.
		
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If only we had reached the point where they had done all they could have done. 

The general view in the medical community is that while schools and colleges re-opening and the fatally bad decision (driven by intentional consultations with known Covid-deniers) not to have a circuit break were big factors, Eat Out circulated a lot of endemic disease and set the tinder, so to speak, which then allowed other mistakes to make it catch fire.


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			No reaction like last time to jab number two thank goodness. Just hoping the stuff went in as it was a weird one - she took what seemed like ages after I felt the needle go in and shuffled around a bit then said "ummm, yes that's fine"! Arm hurts so it must have 

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I had no reaction to 2nd jab too, not even a sore arm. The person giving your jab was probably checking there was no backflash of blood into the syringe which would have indicated it had hit a blood vessel.


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Eat Out circulated a lot of endemic disease and set the tinder, so to speak, which then allowed other mistakes to make it catch fire.
		
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Did it though? The scheme started in August, yet we didnt see any big spikes until a few weeks after the schools reopened. If this virus moves that quickly and shows up within a couple of weeks of infection as they say then surely we'd have been seeing spikes late August/ early september?


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Did it though? The scheme started in August, yet we didnt see any big spikes until a few weeks after the schools reopened. If this virus moves that quickly and shows up within a couple of weeks of infection as they say then surely we'd have been seeing spikes late August/ early september?
		
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https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/econo...ns_up_by_between_8_and_17_new_research_finds/


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

8-17% of new infections were attributed to the scheme. So thats over 83-92% from elsewhere then. Guess it depends on which side you look at it from🤷‍♂️


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			8-17% of new infections were attributed to the scheme. So thats over 83-92% from elsewhere then. Guess it depends on which side you look at it from🤷‍♂️
		
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That's between 8 and 17% that could have been avoided.


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			That's between 8 and 17% that could have been avoided.
		
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And at what collateral cost? How many businesses were saved, how many people are still in a job because of it, haven't fallen behind on their rent or mortgage, lost their homes, fallen into depression and possibly suicide? We'll never know the figures but its a valid argument


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			And at what collateral cost? How many businesses were saved, how many people are still in a job because of it, haven't fallen behind on their rent or mortgage, lost their homes, fallen into depression and possibly suicide? We'll never know the figures but its a valid argument
		
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Track and trace costs the amount spent on them every single.person in the UK could have been given £500k

So £500k I doubt many would be worried about their rent , mortgage etc and many more would stay at home do the right thing


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Track and trace costs the amount spent on them every single.person in the UK could have been given £500k

So £500k I doubt many would be worried about their rent , mortgage etc and many more would stay at home do the right thing
		
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By my simple maths thats 38 and a half TRILLION pounds. Don't think track and trace costs quite that much...🤔


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			By my simple maths thats 38 and a half TRILLION pounds. Don't think track and trace costs quite that much...🤔
		
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Sorry 37 billion Divided by 66 million is 500k no?


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry 37 billion Divided by 66 million is 500k no?
		
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Not these days...It's 500 - well actually more like 575


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## Beezerk (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Track and trace costs the amount spent on them every single.person in the UK could have been given £500k

So £500k I doubt many would be worried about their rent , mortgage etc and many more would stay at home do the right thing
		
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And all those screaming last year for a quality track and trace system would have been told to swivel and just suck it up.
Hindsight is such a wonderful thing,  specially when it bolsters your side of the argument.


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			And all those screaming last year for a quality track and trace system would have been told to swivel and just suck it up.
Hindsight is such a wonderful thing,  specially when it bolsters your side of the argument.
		
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Very true 

However my point which is being lost is that the gov haven't done all they can and have blamed the public at every stage it goes wrong 

So I'm prepared to be blamed again


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## Beezerk (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			However my point which is being lost is that the gov haven't done all they can and have blamed the public at every stage it goes wrong
		
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Have they? Where?


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Have they? Where?
		
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-schools-matt-hancock-lockdown-b1781868.html


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I meant where have they blamed the public? That just looks like a study about the Eat Out thing.
		
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Sorry re read it I posted wrong link that should be correct one


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## Beezerk (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry re read it I posted wrong link that should be correct one
		
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And I replied about the wrong link 🙈😅


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			And I replied about the wrong link 🙈😅
		
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Lol dw it's one of them days


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## Beezerk (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-schools-matt-hancock-lockdown-b1781868.html

Click to expand...

I'll have to watch the video clip when I get home from work.


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			8-17% of new infections were attributed to the scheme. So thats over 83-92% from elsewhere then. Guess it depends on which side you look at it from🤷‍♂️
		
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I look at it from the side where it is a bit more complicated than that.


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry 37 billion Divided by 66 million is 500k no?
		
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For some reason inhad a population figure of 77m in my head, but google tells me its 68m.
Even then 68m x 500k is 34000000000000 pounds. Is that billion or trillion? Maybe ive got my illions mixed up,  either way its an eye watering amount of zeros and far far more than t+t could possibly cost


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			And all those screaming last year for a quality track and trace system would have been told to swivel and just suck it up.
Hindsight is such a wonderful thing,  specially when it bolsters your side of the argument.
		
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We had a good track and trace system, which has been operating for years for other infectious diseases. It was based in PHE, ran at low cost and and used feet on the grounds methods, long known to be essential for effective contact tracing. It could easily and quickly have been scaled up. Instead, in early March 2020, the Govt stopped it doing community testing, at a time when the need for community testing could not have been greater and froze local tracing until the white elephant of Track and Trace came along. It was obvious from the outset that it would be an abject failure, but it was even worse than that. It never ever got even close to contacting anything close to a meaningful proportion of new cases, and as a matter of policy refused to test close contacts. It is not enough to say that Track and Trace did no good, we need to realise it actually did harm. Ironically, most of the tricky outbreaks were still effectively handled by PHE local groups anyway, otherwise we would be in an even worse place.

On budgets, the £37 billion for Track and Trace is approximately 100 times the entire annual PHE budget (around £300 million).


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## RichA (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Should probably be a random irritation but its covid related. My son finishes school next week. Ordinarily he would be on study leave but as there's no exams this year he's finished. You would think after missing nearly a year of face to face teaching they might keep the school year going just this once until July to help those that have missed out on so much, but oh no. And teachers wonder why they get so little sympathy each time they call yet another strike 🙄
		
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Mrs A has been a teacher for 21 years. Never been on strike or, as far as I can remember, told to by her union. She's 70% part-time but still spends 6 days a week working more hours than I do in my full-time job. "Holidays" are for catching up and getting kids through their coursework. She's not unique in her commitment.
I won't be passing on your comments because the last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for her, helping individual kids get through the year where normally it would be a roomful at a time, and it might push her over the edge.


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			Mrs A has been a teacher for 21 years. Never been on strike or, as far as I can remember, told to by her union. She's 70% part-time but still spends 6 days a week working more hours than I do in my full-time job. "Holidays" are for catching up and getting kids through their coursework. She's not unique in her commitment.
I won't be passing on your comments because the last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for her, helping individual kids get through the year where normally it would be a roomful at a time, and it might push her over the edge.
		
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Lazy stereotypes as always 

My wife's school let go 5 members of staff due to cuts to funding even though working flat out through covid 

But it's fine apparently they all strike


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## RichA (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Very true 

However my point which is being lost is that the gov haven't done all they can and have blamed the public at every stage it goes wrong 

So I'm prepared to be blamed again
		
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Not every citizen's decisions have to be made for them. 
There is no law against climbing Ben Nevis in February wearing trainers and  tracksuit, but most reasonable people would realise that they'd be risking their own life and those of the mountain rescue team. 
For reasons I'll never understand, half the country decided to risk christmas with the grandparents, even though a vaccine was in touching distance.


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			Mrs A has been a teacher for 21 years. Never been on strike or, as far as I can remember, told to by her union. She's 70% part-time but still spends 6 days a week working more hours than I do in my full-time job. "Holidays" are for catching up and getting kids through their coursework. She's not unique in her commitment.
I won't be passing on your comments because the last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for her, helping individual kids get through the year where normally it would be a roomful at a time, and it might push her over the edge.
		
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My wife works in preschool. She is just as qualified as a year R teacher but gets paid a fraction of what tbey do. She worked through the whole pandemic, putting herself in harms way every day to look after key workers children, so please don't lecture me about how hard the poor old teachers have it. I've told her many times to move up to school age but she wont as she loves working with the little ones too much


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## Whereditgo (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			Mrs A has been a teacher for 21 years. Never been on strike or, as far as I can remember, told to by her union. She's 70% part-time but still spends 6 days a week working more hours than I do in my full-time job. "Holidays" are for catching up and getting kids through their coursework. She's not unique in her commitment.
I won't be passing on your comments because the last 12 months have been mentally exhausting for her, helping individual kids get through the year where normally it would be a roomful at a time, and it might push her over the edge.
		
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I genuinely thought that we had moved past the old 'what a cushy job teachers have, 13 weeks holiday etc etc'. The amount of time spent at home doing lesson plans, marking work etc is staggering, I would even suggest that most in the private sector would baulk at the additional 'out , of hours' work the profession demands with no additional remuneration or time off in lieu!


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## RichA (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			My wife works in preschool. She is just as qualified as a year R teacher but gets paid a fraction of what tbey do. She worked through the whole pandemic, putting herself in harms way every day to look after key workers children, so please don't lecture me about how hard the poor old teachers have it. I've told her many times to move up to school age but she wont as she loves working with the little ones too much
		
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There was no lecture, simply pointing out that the "lazy stereotype", as someone described your post, doesn't fit all teachers. For sure, there are some, but they don't all deserve to be tarnished.


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			Not every citizen's decisions have to be made for them.
There is no law against climbing Ben Nevis in February wearing trainers and  tracksuit, but most reasonable people would realise that they'd be risking their own life and those of the mountain rescue team.
For reasons I'll never understand, half the country decided to risk christmas with the grandparents, even though a vaccine was in touching distance.
		
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The Govt makes lots of decisions for citizens, including how much you can drink before driving or how many paracetemol you can buy at the garage at one time. The people regularly show that they need decisions taken for them.


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## Jimaroid (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			My wife's school ...
		
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That's handy, maybe she can help you out with some maths lessons.


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## Foxholer (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			For some reason inhad a population figure of 77m in my head, but google tells me its 68m.
Even then 68m x 500k is 34000000000000 pounds. Is that billion or trillion? Maybe ive got my illions mixed up,  either way its an eye watering amount of zeros and far far more than t+t could possibly cost
		
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See my 'correcting' post! UK's concept of Billion was changed to 1,000,000,000 (aligning with US and the rest of the world) in 1974 (by Harold Wilson)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion
...


Foxholer said:





pauljames87 said:



			Sorry 37 billion Divided by 66 million is 500k no?
		
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Not these days...It's 500 - well actually more like 575
		
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## AmandaJR (May 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I had no reaction to 2nd jab too, not even a sore arm. The person giving your jab was probably checking there was no backflash of blood into the syringe which would have indicated it had hit a blood vessel.
		
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Thanks @Ethan - I was hoping you might read this


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## Swinglowandslow (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Very true 

However my point which is being lost is that the gov haven't done all they can and have blamed the public at every stage it goes wrong 

So I'm prepared to be blamed again
		
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Again, with hindsight. I believe more in the truism of Theodore Roosevelt 's words about "the critics", than I do about journos and those with political agendas who always find some Body or authority to blame instead of conceding that in this sort of situation the populous have a responsibility to themselves and society to behave sensibly .
This was an unprecedented and dangerous  situation thrust upon every Country, and every one of those critics , and every one of us , would have dreaded to be the ones in authority ,charged with making the decision to try to sort it out.
So why this rush to hammer those on whom it fell?


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Again, with hindsight. I believe more in the truism of Theodore Roosevelt 's words about "the critics", than I do about journos and those with political agendas who always find some Body or authority to blame instead of conceding that in this sort of situation the populous have a responsibility to themselves and society to behave sensibly .
This was an unprecedented and dangerous  situation thrust upon every Country, and every one of those critics , and every one of us , would have dreaded to be the ones in authority ,charged with making the decision to try to sort it out.
So why this rush to hammer those on whom it fell?
		
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Because it wasn't taken seriously enough and it's been admitted it could have been avoided if dealt with correctly 

But everyone seems fine with that, it makes me uncomfortable


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			There was no lecture, simply pointing out that the "lazy stereotype", as someone described your post, doesn't fit all teachers. For sure, there are some, but they don't all deserve to be tarnished.
		
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Having (originally) married teacher. My best man married a teacher, my youngest daughter is a teacher and my middle daughter works in school admin…. Bluntly, if 2% are as you described I’d be gobsmacked. Unpolitely, you’re a million miles off. And that’s as unpolitely as I dare be…


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Again, with hindsight. I believe more in the truism of Theodore Roosevelt 's words about "the critics", than I do about journos and those with political agendas who always find some Body or authority to blame instead of conceding that in this sort of situation the populous have a responsibility to themselves and society to behave sensibly .
This was an unprecedented and dangerous  situation thrust upon every Country, and every one of those critics , and every one of us , would have dreaded to be the ones in authority ,charged with making the decision to try to sort it out.
So why this rush to hammer those on whom it fell?
		
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Because they made obvious and repeated major mistakes despite being advised what to do by internal and external experts. Those mistakes cost many lives. But I guess you are saying 'Gee, that is just how it goes'.

And it was not hindsight, it was foresight based on the horror playing out in Italy and Spain on out TVs and historical strategies for dealing with contagion. 

This situation was unprecedented in terms of scale, although not in nature, and there is a well trodden path to try to tackle it. The first and bleeding obvious step is top try to stop the contagion getting into the country. Fail. The next one is to test widely to determine how much there is. Fail. Need I go on? You don't let mathematical modelling lead policy. You don't embark on a herd immunity strategy unless you know the contagion very well.

This country had a pandemic exercise a few years ago, under the same Govt party, and did nothing with the report. Other countries acted more on the UK exercise than the UK did.

People in power are there because they choose to be. They must accept the responsibility of dealing with major crises. This lot have abjectly failed and continue to do so. Delaying putting India on the red list in order to do a trade deal is a shameful abdication of responsibility for which sacking isn't close to good enough. Likewise choosing known Covid deniers to get advice on an autumn circuit breaker was cynical and negligent.


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## RichA (May 20, 2021)

I'm not a supporter of this or any previous government, however, post #18,878 is a little lopsided. 

The medical experts at PHE, WHO and whoever else advised the government have had a fairly thin portfolio in respect of this crisis - minimise COVID deaths. 

The various governments of the world have had to minimise COVID deaths while ensuring economic stability, safeguarding jobs, maintaining national security, maintaining future trade, keeping the lights on, etc. A substantially wider portfolio, not all strands of which pull in the same direction and have had to be managed against one another.


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			I'm not a supporter of this or any previous government, however, post #18,878 is a little lopsided.

The medical experts at PHE, WHO and whoever else advised the government have had a fairly thin portfolio in respect of this crisis - minimise COVID deaths.

The various governments of the world have had to minimise COVID deaths while ensuring economic stability, safeguarding jobs, maintaining national security, maintaining future trade, keeping the lights on, etc. A substantially wider portfolio, not all strands of which pull in the same direction and have had to be managed against one another.
		
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The basic principles of managing contagion have been known since the middle ages. In simple terms, this one is not any different. The people at PHE and WHO know quite well how to deal with this. One of the most basic principles of public health is the precautionary principle. If you don't know the scale of something, assume the worst and act accordingly. Much easier to back off from there than from the other end. A medical student could tell you all this after their public health modules. 

One of the other principles known only since the Spanish flu is that failing to deal with the health issues causes worse economic harm. This two pull in exactly the same direction. Those who have set one against the other have made both worse.

Be sure to advise Australia and New Zealand how badly conceived their policies have been.


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## RichA (May 20, 2021)

Are Australia and NZ global hubs for international travel, trade and the financial and service industries or is their nature such that shutting the borders has slightly less impact than it does here?
Comparing them and the UK is less apples v oranges and more apples v chickens.


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			Are Australia and NZ global hubs for international travel, trade and the financial and service industries or is their nature such that shutting the borders has slightly less impact than it does here?
Comparing them and the UK is less apples v oranges and more apples v chickens.
		
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It's really not. Could have stopped holidays 

Should have introduced quarantines sooner 

When you give people few days to get back without quarantine it defeats objective

Say look you have to go to a hotel

But the gov will pay

Cheaper than another lockdown and surge testing


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

RichA said:



			Are Australia and NZ global hubs for international travel, trade and the financial and service industries or is their nature such that shutting the borders has slightly less impact than it does here?
Comparing them and the UK is less apples v oranges and more apples v chickens.
		
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All the more reason the UK should have shut down hard and fast. Financial services can use computers these days, I hear.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2021)

There is no way any government in this country could have won.

We are a nation who by nature rebel against anything that is seen as to authoritarian.  Sighting countries like Australia & N Zeland who have strick boarder controls prior to the pandemic doesn't work for me nor are they major travel hubs.

We can't even agree on compulsory vaccinating of our citizens, we are even to frightened to call out ethnic minorities for ignoring vaccine advice in fear of being called racist.

There have been areas where its been a cluster muck and other areas where the government where successful.


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is no way any government in this country could have won.

We are a nation who by nature rebel against anything that is seen as to authoritarian.  Sighting countries like Australia & N Zeland who have strick boarder controls prior to the pandemic doesn't work for me nor are they major travel hubs.

We can't even agree on compulsory vaccinating of our citizens, we are even to frightened to call out ethnic minorities for ignoring vaccine advice in fear of being called racist.

There have been areas where its been a cluster muck and other areas where the government where successful.
		
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Arguably the most successful thing is the vaccine drive 

No coincidence that it was when the NHS and the military were brought in rather than private companies


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## D-S (May 20, 2021)

I believe it is assumed that most countries are going to have to live with a low, background ‘acceptable’  level of COVID infections, hospitalisations and sadly deaths. Most nations are hoping to get their metrics down to this ‘acceptable’ level. However there are two outliers that are different from almost everywhere else in the world,  down to geography I.e. Aus and NZ who have successfully adopted a zero COVID policy by fundamentally sealing themselves off early.
Instead of getting their metrics down to an acceptable global level, they are going to have to allow them to rise to that ‘level’ when they eventually lower the drawbridge. I am fascinated to know how they are going to  achieve this.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Arguably the most successful thing is the vaccine drive

No coincidence that it was when the NHS and the military were brought in rather than private companies
		
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Military were bought in due to the poor organisation skills within the monster that is a poorly organised NHS.

Not a fan of privatisation but I'm not sure that some areas in the NHS will come out of this well.


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## Old Skier (May 20, 2021)

D-S said:



			I believe it is assumed that most countries are going to have to live with a low, background ‘acceptable’  level of COVID infections, hospitalisations and sadly deaths. Most nations are hoping to get their metrics down to this ‘acceptable’ level. However there are two outliers that are different from almost everywhere else in the world,  down to geography I.e. Aus and NZ who have successfully adopted a zero COVID policy by fundamentally sealing themselves off early.
Instead of getting their metrics down to an acceptable global level, they are going to have to allow them to rise to that ‘level’ when they eventually lower the drawbridge. I am fascinated to know how they are going to  achieve this.
		
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Aus and NZ also banned there own citizens to return.


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## pauljames87 (May 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Aus and NZ also banned there own citizens to return.
		
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To be fair we couldn't afford to lose that amount of pe teachers at once


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2021)

Keeping out of this as if I’d posted any of the above even suggesting things could have been done differently or that uncertainty or conflicts in directives leaves a void that many of the public will fill with whatever best suits them...well...anyway - one day the chickens will come home to roost.


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Sorry 37 billion Divided by 66 million is 500k no?
		
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One big point that very few people are picking up on is that Test and Trace hasn't cost £37 billion. That figure is the total budget for the first two years of the project not what has actually been spent. Up to the end of November 2020 the total cost was £5.7 billion. And 85% of the money spent on Test and Trace is being spent on testing. There are people complaining that the government haven't spent enough on testing while at the same time claiming that they have spent £37 billion on Test and Trace, of which 85% or approx £31.5 billion would have been spent on testing if their figures were correct. Yes there has been money wasted in the Test and Trace system on expensive consultants and other unnecessary costs but the £37 billion figure is clearly being used as a political tool to attack the government.  

https://fullfact.org/online/37bn-test-trace-spending/


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## ColchesterFC (May 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Keeping out of this* as if I’d posted any of the above even suggesting things could have been done differently or that uncertainty or conflicts in directives leaves a void that many of the public will fill with whatever best suits them...well...anyway - one day the chickens will come home to roost.
		
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Keeping out of it by replying to the thread and using subtext to make it clear your feelings about how the government have handled things?


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			One big point that very few people are picking up on is that Test and Trace hasn't cost £37 billion. That figure is the total budget for the first two years of the project not what has actually been spent. Up to the end of November 2020 the total cost was £5.7 billion. And 85% of the money spent on Test and Trace is being spent on testing. There are people complaining that the government haven't spent enough on testing while at the same time claiming that they have spent £37 billion on Test and Trace, of which 85% or approx £31.5 billion would have been spent on testing if their figures were correct. Yes there has been money wasted in the Test and Trace system on expensive consultants and other unnecessary costs but the £37 billion figure is clearly being used as a political tool to attack the government. 

https://fullfact.org/online/37bn-test-trace-spending/

Click to expand...

Your analysis contains quite a few elements that need unpacking, but it really isn't worth the effort.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Keeping out of it by replying to the thread and using subtext to make it clear your feelings about how the government have handled things?
		
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Perhaps - but even if so no different to what every post protesting ‘what could they have done different’ is doing.


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			All the more reason the UK should have shut down hard and fast. Financial services can use computers these days, I hear.
		
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Whilst like many on here I value your obvious professional expertise on this thread, is it too much to ask just occasionally you could disagree with someone without being condescending?


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

What will be interesting is when this whole thing is finally over worldwide,  or at least 'lived with', where will we be on the global scale? We've been told many times how badly we've dealt with it, and how our death rates are the worst in europe or whatever. But it seems at the moment our vaccine rollout has been so successful we are now way ahead of the curve compared to other countries that seemed to be coping far better than us in the earlier stages of the pandemic


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## Ethan (May 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Whilst like many on here I value your obvious professional expertise on this thread, is it too much to ask just occasionally you could disagree with someone without being condescending?
		
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Go back and read the post to which I was responding, snowflake. Right back atcha.

But as you wish: With respect, I think that your point about closing borders being detrimental to financial services is not really pertinent since so much of that stuff is now done electronically. Not to mention much of that market has moved out of the UK due to another disastrous Governmental decision whose name I can't recall, but about which they were also warned.


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## SaintHacker (May 20, 2021)

Snowflake 😂😂😂👏


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## Swinglowandslow (May 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Because they made obvious and repeated major mistakes despite being advised what to do by internal and external experts. Those mistakes cost many lives. But I guess you are saying 'Gee, that is just how it goes'.

And it was not hindsight, it was foresight based on the horror playing out in Italy and Spain on out TVs and historical strategies for dealing with contagion. 

This situation was unprecedented in terms of scale, although not in nature, and there is a well trodden path to try to tackle it. The first and bleeding obvious step is top try to stop the contagion getting into the country. Fail. The next one is to test widely to determine how much there is. Fail. Need I go on? You don't let mathematical modelling lead policy. You don't embark on a herd immunity strategy unless you know the contagion very well.

This country had a pandemic exercise a few years ago, under the same Govt party, and did nothing with the report. Other countries acted more on the UK exercise than the UK did.

People in power are there because they choose to be. They must accept the responsibility of dealing with major crises. This lot have abjectly failed and continue to do so. Delaying putting India on the red list in order to do a trade deal is a shameful abdication of responsibility for which sacking isn't close to good enough. Likewise choosing known Covid deniers to get advice on an autumn circuit breaker was cynical and negligent.
		
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I disagree with most of what you take as read , which you call 'bleeding obvious "
Shutting a country's door is not like shutting a shop. This day and age , for the UK and it's place in the world of commerce, trade, finance, tourism, and relationship with the developed world, shutting its borders is totally impractical.
Starters- every month in early 2020 , 7 million uk citizens went overseas.
To close the border to keep out the virus means no one come in. Or  can some come in and be supervised.? Which and how many of the one or two million? What happens when they demand to be not stranded,-   cue lawyers, street protests, in fact, bedlam. 
So some can come in then. ?  The ones not carrying the virus🤔. The fact that one in three with the virus show no symptoms is not a problem there then?
Your bleeding obvious solution is totally impractical.

The virus spreads by a person infecting one or more others, and they in turn infect, etc etc. And it isn't known that you are infected for up to a week.In the meantime these people are infecting those they meet.
Before the virus, how many people did you touch, speak closely with, shout at or with, breath over in trains,  buses , queues, pubs, etc.?  A week later, how many can you recall and identify so that "trace and isolate " can happen?
Again a mostly futile exercise, I suggest,with little impact on containment.
Sure, an effort is seen to be made, but it isn't practical.

Much better to explain to the nation that this thing is in our midst ;this is how it spreads and it is up to each of us to try to stop it spreading to us, or by us if we think we might have it.
Thus the broadcasts were made and the message went out. It was up to the Nation as a whole to work towards the common goal of containment, it could not be left only to certain parts of the government to chase this lead  and that, days or weeks behind, or shut the Country. We were 66 million, not 5.  We were crowded on a small island, not scattered ( relatively) over a large one.
And we still had to function as best we could for that 66 million.

Other large population countries did what we did, and initially lost out as we did( inevitably). So, our "incompetence" wasn't alone. Strange , that?
Some small populous countries whose logistics problems were infinitely smaller than ours, managed to achieve good results because those remedies ,impractical for us, were not for them . 

Sure, mistakes were made by most governments, but I don't believe any of them decided to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit.
I believe they are trying their best to get us back to normal, and I certainly refuse to castigate them from a stance of their being of a certain political persuasion with which I don't agree.
This is a classic case of disparate authorities being thrown together , who otherwise would have had occasional dealings, to solve a major national crisis, and who find themselves criticised ,in turn, by almost everyone.
A thankless task indeed!


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## RichA (May 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I disagree with most of what you take as read , which you call 'bleeding obvious "
Shutting a country's door is not like shutting a shop. This day and age , for the UK and it's place in the world of commerce, trade, finance, tourism, and relationship with the developed world, shutting its borders is totally impractical...
		
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Everything I wanted to say, but decided I couldn't be bothered.
Well put.


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## Ethan (May 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I disagree with most of what you take as read , which you call 'bleeding obvious "
Shutting a country's door is not like shutting a shop. This day and age , for the UK and it's place in the world of commerce, trade, finance, tourism, and relationship with the developed world, shutting its borders is totally impractical.
Starters- every month in early 2020 , 7 million uk citizens went overseas.
To close the border to keep out the virus means no one come in. Or  can some come in and be supervised.? Which and how many of the one or two million? What happens when they demand to be not stranded,-   cue lawyers, street protests, in fact, bedlam.
So some can come in then. ?  The ones not carrying the virus🤔. The fact that one in three with the virus show no symptoms is not a problem there then?
Your bleeding obvious solution is totally impractical.

The virus spreads by a person infecting one or more others, and they in turn infect, etc etc. And it isn't known that you are infected for up to a week.In the meantime these people are infecting those they meet.
Before the virus, how many people did you touch, speak closely with, shout at or with, breath over in trains,  buses , queues, pubs, etc.?  A week later, how many can you recall and identify so that "trace and isolate " can happen?
Again a mostly futile exercise, I suggest,with little impact on containment.
Sure, an effort is seen to be made, but it isn't practical.

Much better to explain to the nation that this thing is in our midst ;this is how it spreads and it is up to each of us to try to stop it spreading to us, or by us if we think we might have it.
Thus the broadcasts were made and the message went out. It was up to the Nation as a whole to work towards the common goal of containment, it could not be left only to certain parts of the government to chase this lead  and that, days or weeks behind, or shut the Country. We were 66 million, not 5.  We were crowded on a small island, not scattered ( relatively) over a large one.
And we still had to function as best we could for that 66 million.

Other large population countries did what we did, and initially lost out as we did( inevitably). So, our "incompetence" wasn't alone. Strange , that?
Some small populous countries whose logistics problems were infinitely smaller than ours, managed to achieve good results because those remedies ,impractical for us, were not for them .

Sure, mistakes were made by most governments, but I don't believe any of them decided to take advantage of the situation for their own benefit.
I believe they are trying their best to get us back to normal, and I certainly refuse to castigate them from a stance of their being of a certain political persuasion with which I don't agree.
This is a classic case of disparate authorities being thrown together , who otherwise would have had occasional dealings, to solve a major national crisis, and who find themselves criticised ,in turn, by almost everyone.
A thankless task indeed!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for the explanation of how the virus spreads. There are many aspects of that splurge of opinion with which I disagree and which are demonstrably wrong, but I really couldn't be arsed.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 21, 2021)

Yeah because heaven forbid anyone should disagree with you or think you are not the total expert in anything related to this.


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## BiMGuy (May 21, 2021)

I'm amazed the virus spread like it did given the wealth of experts we have on here.
Maybe the mistake the government made was going to SAGE for advice instead of posting the question on here 🙄?


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## Ethan (May 21, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Yeah because heaven forbid anyone should disagree with you or think you are not the total expert in anything related to this.
		
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Well, it would be a good start if people used coherent arguments rather than sweeping generalisations or personal attacks. If you are capable to any coherent arguments, have at it. Otherwise keep your personal attacks for the playground. 



BiMGuy said:



			I'm amazed the virus spread like it did given the wealth of experts we have on here.
Maybe the mistake the government made was going to SAGE for advice instead of posting the question on here 🙄?
		
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If the Govt had properly followed the real SAGE advice, it would have done better, but it picked and chose according to other priorities.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If the Govt had properly followed the real SAGE advice.
		
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I appreciate your not a fan but your now doing what you accuse others of. Can you fully substantiate that claim taking into acc  all the issues that any government may have to take.

SAGE, the real one, may have advised in private that all members of the public should have been vaccinated, we don’t know, but from your posts that’s something that you would disagree with. People in power have to make hard choices and unless you have a private line into number 10 along with the one to the real SAGE HQ I’m not sure how, unless it’s just your opinion, you are able to state the above just yet. If true hopefully it will come out in the enquiry and then the public can make an informed decision based on fact.


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## bobmac (May 21, 2021)

The way I see it is, the science says close everything down, borders, shops, businesses and everyone stay at home. Those in charge knew that would be not only unpopular but a massive strain on the economy, so they did what anyone would do, they compromised.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 21, 2021)

Politics creeping back in to this thread, there is no way we can discuss it without breaking forum rules, skirting round the edges does nobody any favours.


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## RichA (May 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, it would be a good start if people used coherent arguments rather than sweeping generalisations or personal attacks. If you are capable to any coherent arguments, have at it. Otherwise keep your personal attacks for the playground.
		
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Oxymoronic comedy gold. 
This is an internet forum on the website of a golf magazine. There is no hierarchy among us. Any comments should be scrutinised within the house rules - even those of self-appointed experts. 
It's a golf forum, not a public inquiry.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, it would be a good start if people used coherent arguments rather than sweeping generalisations or personal attacks. If you are capable to any coherent arguments, have at it. Otherwise keep your personal attacks for the playground.
		
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Its pretty obvious why you're not in General Practice.


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## Rooter (May 21, 2021)

So anyway, I still have a cold and people look at me as if I am a lepper!! At least no one wants a hug!!


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2021)

Rooter said:



			So anyway, I still have a cold and people look at me as if I am a lepper!! At least no one wants a hug!!
		
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Pop-down to Devon mate, we will hug anything.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Pop-down to Devon mate, we will hug anything.
		
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As long as the jam and cream are the right way around.


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## Jimaroid (May 21, 2021)

RichA said:



			Oxymoronic comedy gold.
This is an internet forum on the website of a golf magazine. There is no hierarchy among us. Any comments should be scrutinised within the house rules - even those of self-appointed experts.
It's a golf forum, not a public inquiry.
		
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This is an interesting position to take considering the make-up of golf clubs covers a huge range of people and expertise. If you meet a pilot in your golf club do you accuse them of not being able to fly aircraft because they're only there to play golf?

There are many people on this forum who are bona-fide experts in their chosen profession and there are many here who are not. I'm personally comfortable with the position Ethan takes in the disregard of foolish opinion, long may it continue.


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			As long as the jam and cream are the right way around.
		
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Heathen, cream and jam the right way round.  Bloody forum trouble maker.


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## SaintHacker (May 21, 2021)

Rooter said:



			So anyway, I still have a cold and people look at me as if I am a lepper!! At least no one wants a hug!!
		
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I'll give you a hug Scott, but I'm not rubbing vicks on your chest...😉😂


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Heathen, cream and jam the right way round.  Bloody forum trouble maker.
		
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As a born and bred Janner I know how my scones buttered.


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## RichA (May 21, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			This is an interesting position to take considering the make-up of golf clubs covers a huge range of people and expertise. If you meet a pilot in your golf club do you accuse them of not being able to fly aircraft because they're only there to play golf?

There are many people on this forum who are bona-fide experts in their chosen profession and there are many here who are not. I'm personally comfortable with the position Ethan takes in the disregard of foolish opinion, long may it continue.
		
Click to expand...

I don't recall accusing anyone of being unable to do their job. 
If the Easyjet pilot starts talking about the mistakes of the government's wider policies, focusing solely on their personal view of air travel, while belittling anyone who disagrees with them, they'll probably be standing on their own fairly quickly.

More importantly, cream first, jam second, no butter. Any other technique is madness.


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## Ethan (May 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Its pretty obvious why you're not in General Practice.
		
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Go on, please enlighten me.


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## Ethan (May 21, 2021)

RichA said:



			Oxymoronic comedy gold.
This is an internet forum on the website of a golf magazine. There is no hierarchy among us. Any comments should be scrutinised within the house rules - even those of self-appointed experts.
It's a golf forum, not a public inquiry.
		
Click to expand...

That is a really stupid response which utterly mischaracterises the previous discussion. I am not a self-appointed expert. There is nothing wrong or hierarchical with asking you to use some actual arguments and facts rather than vacuous generalisations. But when they run out, you revert to personal criticism. Have I criticised you for being unqualified to say what you have said?

I give my opinion, and will break it down so that the logic should be clear. You can believe it, ignore it, or print it off and wipe your arse on it for all I care. If you don't like what I say, tell me why I am wrong. Try a grown up approach, you might even get to like it.

I note you don't criticise others for making sweeping generalisations, or muse whether they are self-appointed experts in macroeconomics or international trade. I wonder why?


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## RichA (May 21, 2021)

Because they're generalists, not experts, and generally keep it general.
It's the internet equivalent of a conversation down the pub. We aren't likely to be solving anything here - we're chatting.


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## Ethan (May 21, 2021)

RichA said:



			Because they're generalists, not experts, and generally keep it general.
It's the internet equivalent of a conversation down the pub. We aren't likely to be solving anything here - we're chatting.
		
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Are you talking about GPs?


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## drdel (May 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is a really stupid response which utterly mischaracterises the previous discussion. I am not a self-appointed expert. There is nothing wrong or hierarchical with asking you to use some actual arguments and facts rather than vacuous generalisations. But when they run out, you revert to personal criticism. Have I criticised you for being unqualified to say what you have said?

I give my opinion, and will break it down so that the logic should be clear. You can believe it, ignore it, or print it off and wipe your arse on it for all I care. If you don't like what I say, tell me why I am wrong. Try a grown up approach, you might even get to like it.

I note you don't criticise others for making sweeping generalisations, or muse whether they are self-appointed experts in macroeconomics or international trade. I wonder why?
		
Click to expand...

Your medical knowledge is clear and I respect the comments you make in that context. However IMO you do turn unnecessarily arrogant and show contempt when posters give differing views.

The core of the thread is the views and effect on individuals of COVID 19.


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## RichA (May 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you talking about GPs?
		
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Not at all. I mean the other folks on here engaging in the chat, expressing their opinions based on their experiences, what they've read, what they know, regardless of their professional qualifications or occupation.
I'm rather hoping that anyone who has time to spend on this forum and playing as much golf as I am isn't advising the government on pandemic management or economic policy.


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## Ethan (May 21, 2021)

drdel said:



			Your medical knowledge is clear and I respect the comments you make in that context. However IMO you do turn unnecessarily arrogant and show contempt when posters give differing views.

The core of the thread is the views and effect on individuals of COVID 19.
		
Click to expand...

I look for coherent arguments, but it seems that people revert to personal or professional criticism. I have never commented about whether anybody else here is qualified to do their job or has a limited view as a result, yet others are happy to throw that at me. If someone summarily dismisses a range of points I have made without any coherent arguments, I am going to push back. If you consider that arrogant, fine, have at it. 

I note you haven't criticised other peoples' sweeping declarations about all manners of stuff in the same way.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 21, 2021)

Yeah it's my ball and if you don't let me be captain, striker and score all the goals, I'm going to cry.

There is a columnist in Private Eye who has the first two pages of each issue going on about covid.   They obviously know their subject and are involved at a high level but come across as so arrogant and "I could have told you exactly what would happen with my perfect 20-20 hindsight" that it detracts from the very good message that could come across.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 21, 2021)

Guys
Let’s stop the bickering and insults, and we must keep politics and political opinions off this thread and the forum in general.

Enough warnings have been issued,


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## pauljames87 (May 21, 2021)




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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Go on, please enlighten me.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe Bedside manner!


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## pauljames87 (May 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe Bedside manner!
		
Click to expand...

I've met GPs with worse


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## Old Skier (May 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe Bedside manner!
		
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You have GPS that come to your bedside or do you keep a phone next to it.


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## Ethan (May 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe Bedside manner!
		
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Some patients appreciate straight talking and lack of waffling ambiguity. Don't confuse bedside manner with internet debate or banter. 

GPs don't sit by many beds these days.


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## SocketRocket (May 21, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			You have GPS that come to your bedside or do you keep a phone next to it.
		
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Alas times gone by but still a suitable noun.

Bedside Manner:

The way in which a doctor treats people, especially showing kind, friendly, and understanding behaviour:
He has a very good bedside manner.


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## Hobbit (May 21, 2021)

On the issue of the Cygnus pandemic exercise, which someone believes was totally ignored…there’s a shock.

There was plenty of detail in the previous COVID thread about elements of the recommendations being implemented. Also some elements that were, sadly, ignored. And some elements that were already in place. For example, PPE & visors/glasses. Changes were decided upon and (fragmented) implementation had started ——- this issue was in the previous thread, including supporting links.

It was beaten to death in the last thread, and I can’t be ‘arrise arguing about it again but to say it was totally ignored is, at best, ignorant.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 21, 2021)

Covid was fuel for the American culture war, as almost anything can be.

Everybody in my family has had both jabs, but I have neighbors who won't participate for reasons well outside the realm of sanity.

As we're not authorized to humanely euthanize them, all we can do is avoid them, I guess.


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## Pants (May 21, 2021)

Where have you been for the last 9 months or so Boomer?  Some of us _may_ have missed you


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 21, 2021)

Pants said:



			Where have you been for the last 9 months or so Boomer?  Some of us _may_ have missed you 

Click to expand...

Well, the ban on political discussion took me out of the lineup for a while, but now that we're playing "the game" again, I find myself reappearing.
Good to be back.


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## pauljames87 (May 22, 2021)

Notice the NHS app has updated to show basically a covid passport just not called it yet 

That should increase uptake


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## RichA (May 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Notice the NHS app has updated to show basically a covid passport just not called it yet 

That should increase uptake
		
Click to expand...

I'm not seeing that. The NHS COVID-19 iPhone app or a different one?


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## IainP (May 22, 2021)

I'd prefer a vaccination passport rather than a covid one 😉😉


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## D-S (May 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			I'm not seeing that. The NHS COVID-19 iPhone app or a different one?
		
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Not the NHS COVID app at you use to check in to venues, the other one which has all your medical records on and where you can book appointments and repeat prescriptions. It also has a QR code with your vaccinatio history which seems to be tailor made for a sort of check-in passport.


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## pauljames87 (May 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			I'm not seeing that. The NHS COVID-19 iPhone app or a different one?
		
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Proper NHS app not the track and trace covid one .

You need to sign up and get permission etc , I had to do photo of my face and passport to be verified for access


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## RichA (May 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Proper NHS app not the track and trace covid one .

You need to sign up and get permission etc , I had to do photo of my face and passport to be verified for access
		
Click to expand...

Ah. One of those services that needs to be authorised by your GP surgery, who I've been asking for online registration details from for 3 years now.


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## pauljames87 (May 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			Ah. One of those services that needs to be authorised by your GP surgery, who I've been asking for online registration details from for 3 years now.
		
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Yes and no. You don't need the gp part to use the NHS app for covid 

You won't have medical history or prescription ordering tho

I don't have it my Dr hasn't authorised

But I can see covid


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## RichA (May 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes and no. You don't need the gp part to use the NHS app for covid 

You won't have medical history or prescription ordering tho

I don't have it my Dr hasn't authorised

But I can see covid
		
Click to expand...

Downloaded it and logged in with the details used to book my jab. It's got all my stuff: GP history, prescriptions, COVID passport.


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## Ethan (May 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			Ah. One of those services that needs to be authorised by your GP surgery, who I've been asking for online registration details from for 3 years now.
		
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Send them a fax request. They mightn't be all that tech.


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## Ethan (May 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			On the issue of the Cygnus pandemic exercise, which someone believes was totally ignored…there’s a shock.

There was plenty of detail in the previous COVID thread about elements of the recommendations being implemented. Also some elements that were, sadly, ignored. And some elements that were already in place. For example, PPE & visors/glasses. Changes were decided upon and (fragmented) implementation had started ——- this issue was in the previous thread, including supporting links.

It was beaten to death in the last thread, and I can’t be ‘arrise arguing about it again but to say it was totally ignored is, at best, ignorant.
		
Click to expand...

I think you are talking to me. Ignorant, eh? If I had said that about someone here, there would be a queue to pile in to call me arrogant and condescending. Hypocritical, no?

Your bland dismissal, "there were some elements that were, sadly, ignored" can be restated as "despite clear warnings and with time to prepare, the Govt abjectly failed to properly prepare because it was a time of austerity and there were short-term issues of greater political importance". That is a view that has been expressed even by some Tory backbenchers and former Ministers. The proof that they failed to heed the warnings was clear with the pressures on ICU beds and ventilators, both flagged in the exercise and nothing done, ICU beds were even reduced in number. Ironically, Germany scaled up ICU capacity after discussions with the UK after Cygnus. As for PPE, much of it was expired and they had to redate it and scramble for more from all over the world.

The Torygraph, former employer of Boris Johnson, has a piece on it. But what do they know? They are probably ignorant too.

Some ignorant commentary


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## Old Skier (May 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			Downloaded it and logged in with the details used to book my jab. It's got all my stuff: GP history, prescriptions, COVID passport.
		
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Not sure that's correct, HID never seen a doc never given any permissions,  downloaded NHS app logged in and all info was there.


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## drdel (May 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think you are talking to me. Ignorant, eh? If I had said that about someone here, there would be a queue to pile in to call me arrogant and condescending. Hypocritical, no?

Your bland dismissal, "there were some elements that were, sadly, ignored" can be restated as "despite clear warnings and with time to prepare, the Govt abjectly failed to properly prepare because it was a time of austerity and there were short-term issues of greater political importance". That is a view that has been expressed even by some Tory backbenchers and former Ministers. The proof that they failed to heed the warnings was clear with the pressures on ICU beds and ventilators, both flagged in the exercise and nothing done, ICU beds were even reduced in number. Ironically, Germany scaled up ICU capacity after discussions with the UK after Cygnus. As for PPE, much of it was expired and they had to relate it and scramble for more from al over the world.

The Torygraph, former employer of Boris Johnson, has a piece on it. But what do they know? They are probably ignorant too.

Some ignorant commentary[/QUOTE

Thread was started to allow posters to show how they, as individuals, are being impacted.

This stuff will get the thread closed.
		
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## Ethan (May 22, 2021)

Typical, you have a go at me again. Did I miss your rebuke to hobbit, to whom I was responding?

Also, you started the thread but you have no right to dictate what aspects people discuss.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			Thread was started to allow posters to show how they, as individuals, are being impacted.

This stuff will get the thread closed
		
Click to expand...

Or instead of repeating it, use the report button, tell the mods your issue and let them decide.


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## Ethan (May 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or instead of repeating it, use the report button, tell the mods your issue and let them decide.

Click to expand...

Go right ahead. If there is a new rule that the thread starter is the content censor, this forum is doomed. In this case, the OP seems to be rather selective in the people whose content he criticises.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Go right ahead. If there is a new rule that the thread starter is the content censor, this forum is doomed. The OP seems to be rather selective in the people whose content he criticises.
		
Click to expand...

Don’t start on me, I don’t have an issue with your post and agree with your reply to drdel.

I just find it odd people reposting a post they aren’t happy with.

The report button is there for a reason.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2021)

So back to the thread subject 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57209444

Great to see the vaccine program working well , the wife has managed to book hers now 

Also looks like Germany have banned UK travellers


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## Ethan (May 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Don’t start on me, I don’t have an issue with your post and agree with your reply to drdel.

I just find it odd people reposting a post they aren’t happy with.

The report button is there for a reason.
		
Click to expand...

Not having a go at you. The 'Go right ahead' was intended for yer man.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So back to the thread subject

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57209444

Great to see the vaccine program working well , the wife has managed to book hers now

Also looks like Germany have banned UK travellers
		
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Germany haven’t banned UK travellers, they must quarantine on arrival for 2 weeks!


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## pauljames87 (May 22, 2021)

RichA said:



			Downloaded it and logged in with the details used to book my jab. It's got all my stuff: GP history, prescriptions, COVID passport.
		
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Annoyingly my Dr hasn't clicked the history stuff but that's ok. What matters is the covid passport if they bring in for normal stuff


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Germany haven’t banned UK travellers, they must quarantine on arrival for 2 weeks!
		
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Not ALL UK travellers - simply the vast majority!
'German citizens and residents, plus people with an exceptional reason, can still enter - but face a two-week quarantine'


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not ALL UK travellers - simply the vast majority!
'German citizens and residents, plus people with an exceptional reason, can still enter - but face a two-week quarantine'
		
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Which UK travellers won’t face 2 weeks in quarantine?


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## road2ruin (May 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Which UK travellers won’t face 2 weeks in quarantine?
		
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From Sunday 23 May, people travelling to Germany from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland may only enter the country if they are a German citizen or resident.

Spouses and children under 18 of a German citizen or resident can also enter, as long as the household are travelling together.

Those with an urgent humanitarian reason such as an immediate family bereavement are also able to enter.
But anyone entering the country from the UK will have to quarantine for two weeks, even if they test negative for the coronavirus.

People who are only transferring from one flight to another will still be allowed in, however they must remain in the airport transit area.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			From Sunday 23 May, people travelling to Germany from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland may only enter the country if they are a German citizen or resident.

Spouses and children under 18 of a German citizen or resident can also enter, as long as the household are travelling together.

Those with an urgent humanitarian reason such as an immediate family bereavement are also able to enter.
But anyone entering the country from the UK will have to quarantine for two weeks, even if they test negative for the coronavirus.

People who are only transferring from one flight to another will still be allowed in, however they must remain in the airport transit area.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57210425

Appears the banning of UK Travellers is down to the fear of India Variant


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			From Sunday 23 May, people travelling to Germany from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland may only enter the country if they are a German citizen or resident.

Spouses and children under 18 of a German citizen or resident can also enter, as long as the household are travelling together.

Those with an urgent humanitarian reason such as an immediate family bereavement are also able to enter.
But anyone entering the country from the UK will have to quarantine for two weeks, even if they test negative for the coronavirus.

People who are only transferring from one flight to another will still be allowed in, however they must remain in the airport transit area.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks, I did read that, hence my reply to foxholer.


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## Foxholer (May 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Which UK travellers won’t face 2 weeks in quarantine?
		
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Those that are neither German citizens, nor residents - as they (bereavement/humanitarian 'excemption' excepted) won't be allowed in!


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## Slime (May 22, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure that's correct, HID never seen a doc never given any permissions,  downloaded NHS app logged in and all info was there.
		
Click to expand...

Same for me .................................... about five minutes ago.


----------



## Slime (May 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So back to the thread subject

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57209444

Great to see the vaccine program working well , the wife has managed to book hers now

Also looks like Germany have banned UK travellers
		
Click to expand...

My son is 33 yrs old and has just booked his two jabs this morning.


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Those that are neither German citizens, nor residents - as they (bereavement/humanitarian 'excemption' excepted) won't be allowed in!
		
Click to expand...

Well done.


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## D-S (May 22, 2021)

Germany must be worried about the Indian variant from the UK as on the face of it they are currently in a far far worse off situation than us at the moment despite things having got a lot better than they were a few weeks ago.
Thyey have had 5 times more cases than us in the past 7 days and over 30 times more deaths (still averaging nearly 200 per day).

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/weekly-trends/#weekly_table


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

D-S said:



			Germany must be worried about the Indian variant from the UK as on the face of it they are currently in a far far worse off situation than us at the moment despite things having got a lot better than they were a few weeks ago.
Thyey have had 5 times more cases than us in the past 7 days and over 30 times more deaths (still averaging nearly 200 per day).

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/weekly-trends/#weekly_table

Click to expand...

In all fairness they have been worried about the Indian variant for a short while, UK travellers have simply been added to the list that already exists as we’ve seen a significant increase in cases here over the past few weeks.


----------



## Blue in Munich (May 22, 2021)

Mrs BiM & I are now fully done; tried a couple of local chemists at closing time & hoovered up a couple from no-shows.


----------



## Old Skier (May 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57210425

Appears the banning of UK Travellers is down to the fear of India Variant
		
Click to expand...

Which a week ago it was reported in a BBC that the Indian variant was already in Germany and they had quarantined to blocks of flats with bans on entering and exiting the building. Wish we were more like this.


----------



## drdel (May 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Typical, you have a go at me again. Did I miss your rebuke to hobbit, to whom I was responding?

Also, you started the thread but you have no right to dictate what aspects people discuss.
		
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right,  I do not claim anything, it just looked to me like the thread was caught up in pseudo political bickering and òn the way to closure. Just IMO.


----------



## upsidedown (May 22, 2021)

2nd Jab yesterday and as had no reaction to the 1st didn't plan anything for today,  no reaction again so happy as.


----------



## Foxholer (May 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Well done.

Click to expand...

That seems like a snidey admission of fault me! 
It was never my intention (it very rarely is!) to get into an argument - simply stating facts!


----------



## Foxholer (May 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			You're absolutely right,  I do not claim anything, *it just looked to me like the thread was caught up in pseudo political bickering and òn the way to closure. Just IMO*.
		
Click to expand...

I suggest you stop contributing to that!
I believe there'll be debate (healthy or otherwise) about this topic until the pandemic is over!
Personally, I'd sooner believe the (generally) unbiased views of medical professionals than the likes of public servants and similar who have (or are required to have) specific (political?) attitudes on the subject!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That seems like a snidey admission of fault me!
It was never my intention (it very rarely is!) to get into an argument - simply stating facts!
		
Click to expand...

I didn’t need them stating, I understood them.


----------



## Foxholer (May 22, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



*I* didn’t need them stating, *I* understood them. 

Click to expand...

Yet you apperared to mis-represent them!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Yet you apperared to mis-represent them!
		
Click to expand...

In your opinion.


----------



## Ethan (May 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			You're absolutely right,  I do not claim anything, it just looked to me like the thread was caught up in pseudo political bickering and òn the way to closure. Just IMO.
		
Click to expand...

OK, fair enough.


----------



## PNWokingham (May 22, 2021)

doublee jabbed now. Hopefully the reaction will be better than the first as booked alovely pub in Eversley for sunday much tomorrow!


----------



## Blue in Munich (May 22, 2021)

Cancelled our bookings for our second vaccines; I got a text immediately to let me know, Mrs BiM has got nothing.


----------



## SaintHacker (May 22, 2021)

Good news 
http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...nt-public-health-england-study-finds-12314048


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## ExRabbit (May 22, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Cancelled our bookings for our second vaccines; I got a text immediately to let me know, Mrs BiM has got nothing. 

Click to expand...

When I did that last week, the same sort of thing happened to us - I got an email straight away, but the one for my wife, via my email, didn't arrive until the next morning.


----------



## fundy (May 22, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Good news 
http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...nt-public-health-england-study-finds-12314048

Click to expand...

is a "vaccine" being 60% effective good news?


----------



## SaintHacker (May 23, 2021)

fundy said:



			is a "vaccine" being 60% effective good news?
		
Click to expand...

A lot better than it being ineffective!


----------



## fundy (May 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			A lot better than it being ineffective!
		
Click to expand...

60% sounds pretty ineffective to my maths


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## SocketRocket (May 23, 2021)

fundy said:



			60% sounds pretty ineffective to my maths
		
Click to expand...

0 sounds pretty ineffective to mine.


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## fundy (May 23, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			0 sounds pretty ineffective to mine.
		
Click to expand...


so what level would you call effective? 1% as is its higher than 0?


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## ExRabbit (May 23, 2021)

fundy said:



			so what level would you call effective? 1% as is its higher than 0?
		
Click to expand...

60% effective doesn't mean that it will only help 6 out of 10 people. It is more of a measure of how much less each person is damaged by it. Less hospitalisations/deaths/long covid etc.


----------



## bobmac (May 23, 2021)

_''Public Health England (PHE) said the difference in effectiveness between the vaccines after two doses may be explained by the fact that rollout of second doses of AstraZeneca was later than for the Pfizer vaccine, which was approved first.
Other data shows it takes longer to reach maximum effectiveness with the AstraZeneca vaccine,'' PHE said._

_https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57214596_


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## backwoodsman (May 23, 2021)

fundy said:



			is a "vaccine" being 60% effective good news?
		
Click to expand...

I think that while we lay people might not see 60% as anything special, the scientific world of immunology regards 60% as pretty darn good - and it counts as success.


----------



## bobmac (May 23, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			I think that while we lay people might not see 60% as anything special, the scientific world of immunology regards 60% as pretty darn good - and it counts as success.
		
Click to expand...

And even if you do catch it, you'll probably have no symtoms


----------



## PhilTheFragger (May 23, 2021)

drdel said:



			it just looked to me like the thread was caught up in pseudo political bickering and òn the way to closure. Just IMO.
		
Click to expand...

This is an accurate assessment


----------



## Blue in Munich (May 23, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			When I did that last week, the same sort of thing happened to us - I got an email straight away, but the one for my wife, via my email, didn't arrive until the next morning.
		
Click to expand...

Snap(ish); Mrs. BiM has woken up this morning to find the text.  Strange it took so long as when I cancelled mine I still had my phone in my hand and the alert was instantaneous.   Still, both cancelled so freed up for someone else & 2 vaccines not wasted.


----------



## Foxholer (May 23, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			In your opinion. 

Click to expand...

Masterful example of 'stating the bleeding obvious'!


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (May 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Masterful example of 'stating the bleeding obvious'!
		
Click to expand...

See post #18957


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## PhilTheFragger (May 23, 2021)

Guys
I’m not going to ask again

The petty bickering and point scoring stops now.

Infractions will be issued if they persist 
I cannot make it any clearer or simpler 
😡


----------



## Ethan (May 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''Public Health England (PHE) said the difference in effectiveness between the vaccines after two doses may be explained by the fact that rollout of second doses of AstraZeneca was later than for the Pfizer vaccine, which was approved first.
Other data shows it takes longer to reach maximum effectiveness with the AstraZeneca vaccine,'' PHE said._

_https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57214596_

Click to expand...

The second statement is borne out by data, the first one is patently rubbish and they know it. The Pfizer vaccine is more effective after the first and second vaccine than AZ or Janssen. It may be a feature of the immunological resistance offered to the viral vector. Both vaccines how a small reduction in efficacy against the B1.617.2 (India) variant than the B1.1.7 (the most common UK variant) but still pretty good.

The AZ vaccine is still very effective, but they need to get over contriving arguments to suggest it is as effective or more effective than Pfizer. It just isn't.

Note also that a figure of 33% (B1.1617.2) or 50% (B1.1.7) was quoted for the 3 weeks _after_ vax. That is not the same as the efficacy _at_ 3 weeks after, which is considerably higher.


----------



## bobmac (May 23, 2021)

The number of deaths for the last week
23rd .......5
22nd .......6
21st ........9
20th ........7
19th ........3
18th ........7
17th ........5

While any deaths are bad news, the overall downward trend is very encouraging with the next few weeks being vitally important to the 'roadmap'


----------



## Ethan (May 23, 2021)

fundy said:



			is a "vaccine" being 60% effective good news?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, that means that it will reduce the rate of clinical infection, but the vaccines also reduce the severity of disease and risk of hospitalisation or death in the 40% who do not get the disease prevented. The FDA threshold for approving a vaccine for Covid is 50%.


----------



## Ethan (May 23, 2021)

NHS App now showing a QR code for vaccination status, as well as facility for emailed PDF or mailed copy.


----------



## pauljames87 (May 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			NHS App now showing a QR code for vaccination status, as well as facility for emailed PDF or mailed copy.
		
Click to expand...

Spotted this yesterday

Even mentions share for travel so covid passports must be on way 

Fully agree with it tbh , might increase uptake


----------



## Smiffy (May 24, 2021)

Just had my second jabberoo.
Got a craving for fish 'n chips for some reason
😱😱😱😱


----------



## chrisd (May 24, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Just had my second jabberoo.
Got a craving for fish 'n chips for some reason
😱😱😱😱
		
Click to expand...

It must be because of the plaice they did the jab 😖


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## BiMGuy (May 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			It must be because of the plaice they did the jab 😖
		
Click to expand...

It cod be a new side effect.


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## ColchesterFC (May 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It cod be a new side effect.
		
Click to expand...

In rare cases it can affect your ears. Wonder if he's having any problems with his herring.


----------



## larmen (May 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			NHS App now showing a QR code for vaccination status, as well as facility for emailed PDF or mailed copy.
		
Click to expand...

How am I only finding out about this app now? Is this being used long?


----------



## The Dog. (May 24, 2021)

Had the virus and the only symptom was loss of taste and smell.  Have had the first jab and wish I hadn't really. 

Other than that, it has mostly affected me psychologically, shattered my faith in my fellow human beings, utterly destroyed what little respect I had left for the political class and eviscerated my respect for the majority of the public sector, especially GP's.


----------



## Ethan (May 24, 2021)

larmen said:



			How am I only finding out about this app now? Is this being used long?
		
Click to expand...

Wasn't a lot of fanfare about it. It links to your GP health record so if your practice is signed up, and you consent, you can view your other health records and prescriptions there too.


----------



## Ethan (May 24, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Had the virus and the only symptom was loss of taste and smell.  Have had the first jab and wish I hadn't really.

Other than that, it has mostly affected me psychologically, shattered my faith in my fellow human beings, utterly destroyed what little respect I had left for the political class and eviscerated my respect for the majority of the public sector, especially GP's.
		
Click to expand...

GPs? Why?


----------



## IanM (May 24, 2021)

Seems a lot of effort to join a forum just  to use the word "eviscerated."  

But he's right.  Rest of the world got off scot-free, while the "majority" of the public sector (unquote) let us all down.     I am on a call in the mo with the Chief Coastguard.  I'll convey your ire to him.


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## IanM (May 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			GPs? Why?
		
Click to expand...

Awful handwriting?


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## chrisd (May 24, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Had the virus and the only symptom was loss of taste and smell.  Have had the first jab and wish I hadn't really.

Other than that, it has mostly affected me psychologically, shattered my faith in my fellow human beings, utterly destroyed what little respect I had left for the political class and eviscerated my respect for the majority of the public sector, especially GP's.
		
Click to expand...

So, a pretty mild reaction really


----------



## chrisd (May 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			GPs? Why?
		
Click to expand...

Always turning up for work 30 minutes after their surgery opens for patients ?


----------



## AmandaJR (May 24, 2021)

Having taken part in this study I read this and finally saw a positive to actually having Covid.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-5...JcfZbE__Tk_XOaNiwfs9C42SRtEydnDAvWpH3dxo97vd4


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## The Dog. (May 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So, a pretty mild reaction really
		
Click to expand...

pretty mild, yes. 🙂


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## Blue in Munich (May 24, 2021)

And people like this are why we will never keep these things under control;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-57227244


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## SocketRocket (May 24, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Had the virus and the only symptom was loss of taste and smell.  Have had the first jab and wish I hadn't really. 

Other than that, it has mostly affected me psychologically, shattered my faith in my fellow human beings, utterly destroyed what little respect I had left for the political class and eviscerated my respect for the majority of the public sector, especially GP's.
		
Click to expand...

Have you considered a Hermitage?


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## The Dog. (May 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Have you considered Hermitage?
		
Click to expand...

Not really, am more of an Amarone or Malbec man.


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## Ethan (May 24, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Not really, am more of an Amarone or Malbec man.
		
Click to expand...

So what is the issue with GPs?


----------



## Kellfire (May 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The number of deaths for the last week
23rd .......5
22nd .......6
21st ........9
20th ........7
19th ........3
18th ........7
17th ........5

While any deaths are bad news, the overall downward trend is very encouraging with the next few weeks being vitally important to the 'roadmap'
		
Click to expand...

That’s an upwards trend over the course of that week.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 24, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Not really, am more of an Amarone or Malbec man.
		
Click to expand...

Shame you don't have anyone to drink with by the sound of it.


----------



## The Dog. (May 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Shame you don't have anyone to drink with by the sound of it.
		
Click to expand...

🙂 It would seem so.


----------



## bobmac (May 25, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			That’s an upwards trend over the course of that week.
		
Click to expand...

The point I was making was the fact that the numbers are down to single figures for 7 days in a row with an average of 6 per day.
Ps yesterday's number was 3.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 25, 2021)

Heard some really positive stories/testimonies yesterday about how for some the vaccine has dramatically relieved symptoms of ‘long COVID’ - first helped, second made huge difference 👍 One major hidden problem bubbling under from the pandemic also mentioned is the likely number of undiagnosed cancers...🙁


----------



## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard some really positive stories/testimonies yesterday about how for some the vaccine has dramatically relieved symptoms of ‘long COVID’ - first helped, second made huge difference 👍 One major hidden problem bubbling under from the pandemic also mentioned is the likely number of undiagnosed cancers...🙁
		
Click to expand...

Suggests that long Covid is immunological in origin and the vaccine reboots the system enough to get rid of it.


----------



## Slime (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			GPs? Why?
		
Click to expand...




Ethan said:



			So what is the issue with GPs?
		
Click to expand...

He is quite clearly shying away from answering this.
Maybe he's a bit embarrassed?


----------



## GB72 (May 25, 2021)

I have woken up feeling positive this morning. Not sure why, nothing has really changed but most of the 'freedoms' that impact on my life are now allowed, though doing some of them does make me nervous and that is a psychological barrier I need to clear. I know that it is an over simplified view but schools are back, shops are open, pubs are open, we are meeting small numbers of people inside again and the numbers remain steady. The daily vaccine numbers are going up again and so I am taking a day to try and be positive about things going forward. 

Got a few friends coming round for dinner on Friday night. This is a baby step for me as 3 of the 4 are regularly tested through work and all have had at least one jab and so I have set up as safe an environment as I can for the first move towards socialising inside. Hope it goes well as due in the pub on Sunday.


----------



## pauljames87 (May 25, 2021)

Are these low uptake areas?

Can't remember how similar these were to those first kept under longer restrictions last year


----------



## bobmac (May 25, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I have woken up feeling positive this morning. Not sure why, nothing has really changed but most of the 'freedoms' that impact on my life are now allowed, though doing some of them does make me nervous and that is a psychological barrier I need to clear. I know that it is an over simplified view but schools are back, shops are open, pubs are open, we are meeting small numbers of people inside again and the numbers remain steady. The daily vaccine numbers are going up again and so I am taking a day to try and be positive about things going forward.

Got a few friends coming round for dinner on Friday night. This is a baby step for me as 3 of the 4 are regularly tested through work and all have had at least one jab and so I have set up as safe an environment as I can for the first move towards socialising inside. Hope it goes well as due in the pub on Sunday.
		
Click to expand...

We're definitely over the worst, it will take time for things to feel normal again but that day will come, hopefully soon. Keep your pecker up.


----------



## The Dog. (May 25, 2021)

Slime said:



			He is quite clearly shying away from answering this.
Maybe he's a bit embarrassed?
		
Click to expand...

I am not embarrassed.  I answered the original question honestly but am indifferent to engaging a long winded defence of my opinion on a polarising subject that is unlikely to end in any form of consensus.  However, this gives a good example as to why. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/05/04/reason-youvenot-seen-gp-recently-frankly-scandal/ 

Great welcome you get here:

Seems a lot of effort to join a forum just to use the word "eviscerated."
Shame you don't have anyone to drink with by the sound of it.
He is quite clearly shying away from answering this.
Maybe he's a bit embarrassed?


----------



## SocketRocket (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I am not embarrassed.  I answered the original question honestly but am indifferent to engaging a long winded defence of my opinion on a polarising subject that is unlikely to end in any form of consensus.  However, this gives a good example as to why. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/05/04/reason-youvenot-seen-gp-recently-frankly-scandal/ 

Great welcome you get here:

Seems a lot of effort to join a forum just to use the word "eviscerated."
Shame you don't have anyone to drink with by the sound of it.
He is quite clearly shying away from answering this.
Maybe he's a bit embarrassed?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should reflect on your first posting here. You used It to to show your disdain of just about everybody. Not a great way to attract a welcome.


----------



## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I am not embarrassed.  I answered the original question honestly but am indifferent to engaging a long winded defence of my opinion on a polarising subject that is unlikely to end in any form of consensus.  However, this gives a good example as to why. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/05/04/reason-youvenot-seen-gp-recently-frankly-scandal/

Great welcome you get here:

Seems a lot of effort to join a forum just to use the word "eviscerated."
Shame you don't have anyone to drink with by the sound of it.
He is quite clearly shying away from answering this.
Maybe he's a bit embarrassed?
		
Click to expand...

You don't answer the original question at all. 

Allison Pearson's article is, like most of her other stuff, a pile of horsepoo and demonstrably untrue. 

As for the polarising subject, you posted it, pal, so bit late to get your knickers in a twist now. If you haven't the Pro V1s to answer obvious questions that you have invited by your comment, then don't post in the first place.


----------



## The Dog. (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You don't answer the original question at all.

Allison Pearson's article is, like most of her other stuff, a pile of horsepoo and demonstrably untrue.

As for the polarising subject, you posted it, pal, so bit late to get your knickers in a twist now. If you haven't the Pro V1s to answer obvious questions that you have invited by your comment, then don't post in the first place.
		
Click to expand...

The original question was how as Coronavirus affected you and I answered this honestly. I wish I hadn't as it has seemingly invoked the ire of a clique. 

Demonstrably untrue? The lady in the article is dead and her husband used to run an NHS Trust.  Check out the Planet Normal podcast for more of Alison Pearson's excellent work. 

Please accept that I have zero interest in engaging with you in a discussion about GP's.  

Haven't the balls?  Knickers in a twist?  Don't post in the first place?    Nice.


----------



## RichA (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I am not embarrassed.  I answered the original question honestly but am indifferent to engaging a long winded defence of my opinion on a polarising subject that is unlikely to end in any form of consensus...

Great welcome you get here...
		
Click to expand...

I'm new-ish on here too, but welcome. 
GPs are like any other part of society, real or virtual. Some good, some bad, some who turn up, do the job, get paid, get on with their lives. 
I've had mixed experiences, mostly negative, since our local legend retired 10 years ago. There's a part-timer at ours who seems excellent, but her appointment book is always full, unlike the ass who took over the practice.


----------



## The Dog. (May 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you should reflect on your first posting here. You used It to to show your disdain of just about everybody. Not a great way to attract a welcome.
		
Click to expand...

Not everybody, but I take your point.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 25, 2021)

Should be going to the ribble  valley next Sunday for a suprise 80th. That’s looking very iffy.


----------



## The Dog. (May 25, 2021)

RichA said:



			I'm new-ish on here too, but welcome.
GPs are like any other part of society, real or virtual. Some good, some bad, some who turn up, do the job, get paid, get on with their lives.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.


----------



## RichA (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Check out the Planet Normal podcast for more of Alison Pearson's excellent work.
		
Click to expand...

I listened to the first couple, being totally disenfranchised by news media over the last few years, hoping that it might be something fresh. 
It all seemed a bit smug and right-wing pretending to be independent.


----------



## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			The original question was how as Coronavirus affected you and I answered this honestly. I wish I hadn't as it has seemingly invoked the ire of a clique.

Demonstrably untrue? The lady in the article is dead and her husband used to run an NHS Trust.  Check out the Planet Normal podcast for more of Alison Pearson's excellent work.

Please accept that I have zero interest in engaging with you in a discussion about GP's. 

Haven't the balls?  Knickers in a twist?  Don't post in the first place?    Nice.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, so you slag off an entire profession, my colleagues and peers, and I am supposed to just say 'Fair enough'. Don't think so. 

So the original question I made to you was a simple one 'Why?' and you have no answers except to cite Allison Pearson. She is a Covid denier with a long track record of animosity against the NHS and medical profession. 

You have still offered no explanation of why YOU have an issue with GPs, or why your anecdote says anything about GPs in general, and refusing to discuss any more. Sounds like it was all a load of made up [redacted].


----------



## SocketRocket (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Oh, so you slag off an entire profession, my colleagues and peers, and I am supposed to just say 'Fair enough'. Don't think so. 

So the original question I made to you was a simple one 'Why?' and you have no answers except to cite Allison Pearson. She is a Covid denier with a long track record of animosity against the NHS and medical profession. 

You have still offered no explanation of why YOU have an issue with GPs, or why your anecdote says anything about GPs in general, and refusing to discuss any more. Sounds like it was all a load of made up [redacted].
		
Click to expand...

I have a problem with GPs in that there's not enough of them or maybe to many of us. That's not their fault though.


----------



## The Dog. (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Oh, so you slag off an entire profession, my colleagues and peers, and I am supposed to just say 'Fair enough'. Don't think so.

So the original question I made to you was a simple one 'Why?' and you have no answers except to cite Allison Pearson. She is a Covid denier with a long track record of animosity against the NHS and medical profession.

You have still offered no explanation of why YOU have an issue with GPs, or why your anecdote says anything about GPs in general, and refusing to discuss any more. Sounds like it was all a load of made up [redacted].
		
Click to expand...

Ethan - you seem to think I owe you answers? Like I have to explain myself because you demand it? I don't share that view.


----------



## drdel (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			The original question was how as Coronavirus affected you and I answered this honestly. I wish I hadn't as it has seemingly invoked the ire of a clique.

Demonstrably untrue? The lady in the article is dead and her husband used to run an NHS Trust.  Check out the Planet Normal podcast for more of Alison Pearson's excellent work.

Please accept that I have zero interest in engaging with you in a discussion about GP's.

Haven't the balls?  Knickers in a twist?  Don't post in the first place?    Nice.
		
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Welcome. Take no notice of the courageous 'keyboard' warriors. Its just a golf forum and naturally you'll get a cross section of views; stick to yours. It won't take you long to work out the debaters compared to the shouters and the thin skinned.

In general most of the stuff is good humoured but there are a few who haven't learnt that " It's best to be thought a fool than open one's mouth and prove it".


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## Liverpoolphil (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			The original question was how as Coronavirus affected you and I answered this honestly. I wish I hadn't as it has seemingly invoked the ire of a clique.

Demonstrably untrue? The lady in the article is dead and her husband used to run an NHS Trust.  Check out the Planet Normal podcast for more of Alison Pearson's excellent work.

Please accept that I have zero interest in engaging with you in a discussion about GP's. 

Haven't the balls?  Knickers in a twist?  Don't post in the first place?    Nice.
		
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Welcome , enjoy and stick with your strong opinions - it will be up to others to accept them.


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## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Ethan - you seem to think I owe you answers? Like I have to explain myself because you demand it? I don't share that view.
		
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No, you slagged off GPs, not your GP, or one particular GP, but 'GPs', so presumably all of them, so I asked a simple question 'Why?', presuming you had a semi-coherent answer of some sort or interesting anecdote. 

But you don't. You sound exactly like the sort of reader Allison Pearson likes, asks no questions, seeks no answers, just laps up her drivel and nods.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Welcome , enjoy and stick with your strong opinions - it will be up to others to accept them.
		
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What kind of comment is that supposed to be! You have a track record complaining of others 'Strong opinions' and why do you suggest it will be up to others to accept them?   If I had posted what he did you would be first to criticise it 🙄


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Welcome , enjoy and stick with your strong opinions - it will be up to others to accept them.
		
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I take it you mean " up to others to accept them or reject them, as they see fit"?
I'm all for strong opinions ( have them myself from time to time ), but then it is necessary to allow others the same , and be prepared for others to strongly criticise those strong opinions you have expressed, without insult or belittling.
Basic forum participation.
As it happens, I thought he was amusingly using hyperbole, but it seems he wasn't. Though for the life of me, I do not see why he wishes he had not had the first jab! ( I take it that is what he said)...
Care to enlighten, Dog?🤔


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## Jamesbrown (May 25, 2021)

The phrase “covid denier” gets thrown around a lot which itches my nipples a lot.
  Don’t know of many if any literal “deniers” more people who see it a different away, don’t consider the ends justifies the means, don’t value human life all that precious or prefer a selfish stand point.


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## GB72 (May 25, 2021)

As part of my positive day, the results form the test events are looking very promising, just 15 cased from 58000 attendees at both indoor and outdoor events:


There were just four cases of Covid across the entire 17 days of the World Snooker Championships
No cases emerged from the Brit Awards, even though the audience could mingle at tables and in boxes without masks
There were only two cases among 5,900 pop-lovers at an outdoor music festival at Sefton Park, Liverpool, and none at all at the reduced-capacity football at Wembley Stadium
Nine cases were found among 6,000 revellers who packed into a nightclub in Liverpool over two days without masks


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2021)

This was posted by someone I know, I'm not sure if it's originally theirs but I think it sums up the way so many people are feeling right now.

"I have never thought of myself as an anxious person before and it has totally opened my eyes but for the past couple of months I have felt like I haven’t been coping with getting back to normal life , everything has seemed like a lot of effort and my insecurities have been through the roof! A year of seeing only a handful of people/work colleagues due to lockdown has somehow made that my norm , my safe space. I have loved having my children home all the time and now that life has gone pretty much back to normal I’m finding it hard to adjust even getting irritable if my surroundings are too loud. I have avoided seeing people i haven’t seen in the past year and the thought of mixing with people again as we get into the summer months makes me feel really uneasy. It feels really strange to not be totally buzzing about the end of lockdown like pretty much everyone else I know! I thought I’d put this post up as maybe just maybe I’m not alone with feeling like this and it will mean people don’t have to make excuses for me if I don’t attend social situations for a while. I am trying and hopefully I will feel more myself again soon."


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## backwoodsman (May 25, 2021)

GB72 said:



			As part of my positive day, the results form the test events are looking very promising, just 15 cased from 58000 attendees at both indoor and outdoor events:


There were just four cases of Covid across the entire 17 days of the World Snooker Championships
No cases emerged from the Brit Awards, even though the audience could mingle at tables and in boxes without masks
There were only two cases among 5,900 pop-lovers at an outdoor music festival at Sefton Park, Liverpool, and none at all at the reduced-capacity football at Wembley Stadium
Nine cases were found among 6,000 revellers who packed into a nightclub in Liverpool over two days without masks


Click to expand...

Encouraging news, surely. 

But I guess it would have been surprising if the results had not been like that?  After all, the guests/participants/customers only got in because they'd already tested negative.


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## GB72 (May 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			This was posted by someone I know, I'm not sure if it's originally theirs but I think it sums up the way so many people are feeling right now.

"I have never thought of myself as an anxious person before and it has totally opened my eyes but for the past couple of months I have felt like I haven’t been coping with getting back to normal life , everything has seemed like a lot of effort and my insecurities have been through the roof! A year of seeing only a handful of people/work colleagues due to lockdown has somehow made that my norm , my safe space. I have loved having my children home all the time and now that life has gone pretty much back to normal I’m finding it hard to adjust even getting irritable if my surroundings are too loud. I have avoided seeing people i haven’t seen in the past year and the thought of mixing with people again as we get into the summer months makes me feel really uneasy. It feels really strange to not be totally buzzing about the end of lockdown like pretty much everyone else I know! I thought I’d put this post up as maybe just maybe I’m not alone with feeling like this and it will mean people don’t have to make excuses for me if I don’t attend social situations for a while. I am trying and hopefully I will feel more myself again soon."
		
Click to expand...

A very fair point being made. I am expanding my boundaries in my own time on my own terms. Small group of the same people I used to meet outside with, that group is moving inside this week but we all know that anyone can just up and leave if they are not comfortable. Small steps, bringing things back into my life slowly and one step at a time.


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## backwoodsman (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			The original question was how as Coronavirus affected you and I answered this honestly. I wish I hadn't as it has seemingly invoked the ire of a clique.

Demonstrably untrue? The lady in the article is dead and her husband used to run an NHS Trust.  Check out the Planet Normal podcast for more of *Alison Pearson's excellent work.*

Please accept that I have zero interest in engaging with you in a discussion about GP's. 

Haven't the balls?  Knickers in a twist?  Don't post in the first place?    Nice.
		
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"Alison Pearson" and "excellent work" . Not phrases you see in the same sentence very often  ... 

And welcome by the way.


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## GB72 (May 25, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Encouraging news, surely.

But I guess it would have been surprising if the results had not been like that?  After all, the guests/participants/customers only got in because they'd already tested negative.
		
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A fair point. The clubbing one was the big one for me, that had the potential to be an absolute covid heaven but it all seems to have gone OK<


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## backwoodsman (May 25, 2021)

GB72 said:



			A fair point. The clubbing one was the big one for me, that had the potential to be an absolute covid heaven but it all seems to have gone OK<
		
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And I agree, its something we should all see as a positive. And a step in the right direction. (I'm starting to get sick of "new normal" . I want "normal" back.)


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## pauljames87 (May 25, 2021)

GB72 said:



			A very fair point being made. I am expanding my boundaries in my own time on my own terms. Small group of the same people I used to meet outside with, that group is moving inside this week but we all know that anyone can just up and leave if they are not comfortable. Small steps, bringing things back into my life slowly and one step at a time.
		
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We are slowly pushing it 

Sunday we taking eldest to see Peter rabbit 2.. see how that goes 

Booked a few other things like meet Peppa on a heritage railway but booked a cabin just for us 

And booked a farm trip 

So all same people


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## Swinglowandslow (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Ethan - you seem to think I owe you answers? Like I have to explain myself because you demand it? I don't share that view.
		
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Surely if you denigrate a whole profession, don't you expect, on a forum, someone to reasonably ask you what exactly you are on about?
The making of the comment ( by you)  invites asking you to justify it...
Straightforward, isn't it?


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## williamalex1 (May 25, 2021)

I know that the GPs at my practice haven't had as many face to face appointments and some are actually working from home. 10 days for a non urgent phone appointment .
But the practice nurses have been working full out, escorting patients in, carrying out treatments, then showing them out and cleaning everything after every patient.


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## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I know that the GPs at my practice haven't had as many face to face appointments and some are actually working from home. 10 days for a non urgent phone appointment .
		
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And some of them are in the Out of Hours, the Urgent Care and/or at the vaccination centres. None of the GPs I know, and I know a fair few, are doing less work or having a more relaxed time since Covid started.


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## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Surely if you denigrate a whole profession, don't you expect, on a forum, someone to reasonably ask you what exactly you are on about?
The making of the comment ( by you)  invites asking you to justify it...
Straightforward, isn't it?
		
Click to expand...

It was the blanket dismissal of the entire public sector, especially GPs, en masse that invited the question.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 25, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I know that the GPs at my practice haven't had as many face to face appointments and some are actually working from home. 10 days for a non urgent phone appointment .
But the practice nurses have been working full out, escorting patients in, carrying out treatments, then showing them out and cleaning everything after every patient.
		
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Our GP’s have handles appointments in a variety of ways, you can book a non-urgent appointment via phone and the timescale is no diffetent to face to face, more urgent appointments receive a call back same day and then face to face (same day) if required, some appointments have been carried out via Zoom.

Also our Health Centre is also a vaccination centre and there are always at least 2 of the GP’s administering jabs when it is open.

The Nurses are also covering their own job and taking turn adminstating vaccines.

I and my family have had no issue contacting or being looking after by our GP’s.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (May 25, 2021)

Covid cost me an entire season, last season, very late in my golf life when I could ill-afford to lose it.
Fortunately, we're back in the saddle this season, but it's hard to knock the rust off my game.

When the covid catastrophe first exploded among us, we were more concerned with the possibility of transmission via surfaces than we needed to be.
We came to discover that nearly all transmission is airborne, and wearing masks would have pretty much been enough.

Instead we had one player to a cart, no touching the flagstick, no rakes for the bunkers, and changing shoes in the car park because the clubhouse was closed.
Golf required a social aspect for me, so I paid my dues to retain membership in good standing,
but I didn't play all year.

Now just about everybody at the club has had two jabs of either Pfizer or Moderna [we don't have Astrazeneca here] vaccine. 

To be honest, I wasn't sure if I'd ever get to play again.
Once in a great while, something works out.


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## Slime (May 25, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I am not embarrassed.  I answered the original question honestly but am indifferent to engaging a long winded defence of my opinion on a polarising subject that is unlikely to end in any form of consensus.  However, this gives a good example as to why. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/05/04/reason-youvenot-seen-gp-recently-frankly-scandal/

Great welcome you get here:

Seems a lot of effort to join a forum just to use the word "eviscerated."
Shame you don't have anyone to drink with by the sound of it.
He is quite clearly shying away from answering this.
Maybe he's a bit embarrassed?
		
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Fair enough, apologies if I misread the situation, but I did find it an odd opening post. 
Oh, and don't worry Dog, "eviscerated" is a great word.


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## williamalex1 (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			And some of them are in the Out of Hours, the Urgent Care and/or at the vaccination centres. None of the GPs I know, and I know a fair few, are doing less work or having a more relaxed time since Covid started.
		
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I only know that the nurse I saw wasn't a happy bunny being left to do all the donkey work. The vaccinations we received were given by nurses. My wife waited 12 hours to see a doctor in the A/E department after being taken there by ambulance.
Plenty of nurses running around like blue arsed flies but very few doctors.


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## RichA (May 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Surely if you denigrate a whole profession, don't you expect, on a forum, someone to reasonably ask you what exactly you are on about?
The making of the comment ( by you)  invites asking you to justify it...
Straightforward, isn't it?
		
Click to expand...

Should we be affording the same courtesy to journalists, footballers, high-handicappers, politicians, delivery drivers, low-handicappers, old people, young people and celebrities too, every time someone on the forum makes a sweeping generalisation?


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## RichA (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			None of the GPs I know, and I know a fair few, are doing less work or having a more relaxed time since Covid started.
		
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I only know 2 - BiL and SiL. In the last 12 months he's quit his practice to go part-time locum. She's quit hers to join a private practice doing a couple of call outs a day to wealthy customers.
They are much more relaxed and don't appear to be paying for their changes financially.


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## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

RichA said:



			Should we be affording the same courtesy to journalists, footballers, high-handicappers, politicians, delivery drivers, low-handicappers, old people, young people and celebrities too, every time someone on the forum makes a sweeping generalisation?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe. If someone makes a vague general comment, "I hate delivery drivers", you may be interested to know why, and whether the reason applies to all of them. If they say "I hate the delivery driver from Pizza Hut in Bracknell who put my pizza through the letter box", then we can say "OK, for enough".


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## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

RichA said:



			I only know 2 - BiL and SiL. In the last 12 months he's quit his practice to go part-time locum. She's quit hers to join a private practice doing a couple of call outs a day to wealthy customers.
They are much more relaxed and don't appear to be paying for their changes financially.
		
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OK, but those are not common except maybe at pre-retirement. There are pension implications and work security for both of them, although they may be quite happy to accept them. Some private GPs get very pissed off after a while with over-demanding patients who have little wrong with them but expect 24/7 service.


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## RichA (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			OK, but those are not common except maybe at pre-retirement. There are pension implications and work security for both of them, although they may be quite happy to accept them. Some private GPs get very pissed off after a while with over-demanding patients who have little wrong with them but expect 24/7 service.
		
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Both are younger than you might expect. The last sentence of your reply sums up why they left their "public" practices.


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## jim8flog (May 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 36766


Are these low uptake areas?

Can't remember how similar these were to those first kept under longer restrictions last year
		
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   It does not need a pandemic to make me avoid going to those areas


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## jim8flog (May 25, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I only know that the nurse I saw wasn't a happy bunny being left to do all the donkey work. The vaccinations we received were given by nurses. My wife waited 12 hours to see a doctor in the A/E department after being taken there by ambulance.
Plenty of nurses running around like blue arsed flies but very few doctors.
		
Click to expand...

You might want to read this and other reports like it

https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/full/10.1308/rcsbull.2020.78


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## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

RichA said:



			Both are younger than you might expect. The last sentence of your reply sums up why they left their "public" practices.
		
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OK, I support them making the choices that are right for them, as I did in a different direction.


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## SocketRocket (May 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			OK, I support them making the choices that are right for them, as I did in a different direction.
		
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But you did fail the bedside manner course 😉


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## Ethan (May 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			But you did fail the bedside manner course 😉
		
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The other party confused direct speaking with a lack of compassion. He is wrong. Patients deserve doctors who provide the best care, and that is not always the care the patient wants.


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## Ethan (May 26, 2021)

More bad news for Astra Zeneca. Reports of arterial clot problems in younger people in a paper in the Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery and Psychiatry.

Previously all the clot problems were on the venous side, i.e the part that returns deoxygenated blood to the heart, and associated with rare conditions, but these reports are on the arterial side and associated with common conditions, so starts to confirm the fear that some of us had that some effect on stroke, myocardial infarction and other arterial thrombotic events was likely and could be an even bigger and less easily differentiated problem. A 1 or 2% increase in CVST is no problem, a 1 to 2% increase in MI and CVA is much bigger. It may be that only people with certain genetic predispositions are at higher risk, but this is not yet fully understood.


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## RichA (May 26, 2021)

A second article in the same journal points out that these attacks are "much more common" during a COVID infection, which is presumably much less likely if one has had the AZ vaccine.


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## Ethan (May 26, 2021)

RichA said:



			A second article in the same journal points out that these attacks are "much more common" during a COVID infection, which is presumably much less likely if one has had the AZ vaccine.
		
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Stroke in three vax recipients all 43 years old or younger? All had features of the VITT vaccine-specific antibody response. These were related events. In some ways, it is no surprise, It was always highly likely, and I have expressed concern here about the possibility that arterial side events must also be increased and are likely to be less noticed, apart from in young people in whom they are very rare. 

The commentary that stroke occurs as a complication of Covid is not intended to explain these reports, because the patients concerned did not have Covid, but to make an epidemiological comment, and we already knew this. However, this risk of stroke is heavily biased towards older people, as the commentary notes, and the risk of stroke in patients with Covid in their 30s and 40s, which is not specified, is likely to be vanishingly low.


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## RichA (May 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Stroke in three vax recipients all 43 years old or younger? All had features of the VITT vaccine-specific antibody response. These were related events. In some ways, it is no surprise, It was always highly likely, and I have expressed concern here about the possibility that arterial side events must also be increased and are likely to be less noticed, apart from in young people in whom they are very rare.

The commentary that stroke occurs as a complication of Covid is not intended to explain these reports, because the patients concerned did not have Covid, but to make an epidemiological comment, and we already knew this. However, this risk of stroke is heavily biased towards older people, as the commentary notes, and the risk of stroke in patients with Covid in their 30s and 40s, which is not specified, is likely to be vanishingly low.
		
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It's still only considered to be a very rare side effect, yet you have raised it a few times on this golf forum.
I hope it hasn't put anyone off being vaccinated.


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## drdel (May 26, 2021)

I was talking to a friend who has volunteered to help get people vaccinated in one of the 8 areas with the Indian variant.  It was sad to hear that during his house to house visits they get abused. He talked about how many of the ethnic residents refuse to go and take the vaccine they are abusive and refuse to even take an explanatory ĺeaflet.

Sad reflection of the misinformation floating around.


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## pauljames87 (May 26, 2021)

drdel said:



			I was talking to a friend who has volunteered to help get people vaccinated in one of the 8 areas with the Indian variant.  It was sad to hear that during his house to house visits they get abused. He talked about how many of the ethnic residents refuse to go and take the vaccine they are abusive and refuse to even take an explanatory ĺeaflet.

Sad reflection of the misinformation floating around.
		
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All leaders in the area , religious, council, celebs, respected people .. should take the vaccine and make a massive deal of it like khan did in London all over twitter etc etc and how all MPs have done 

Just show it's safe 

Dunno what more people can want than those in charge taking it .. they wouldn't take something unsafe


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## IanM (May 26, 2021)

I didn't hesitate to take the vaccine, but there was a certain leap of faith on my part about it's safety... 

My "community leader" didn't convince me.  Do I have a community leader?


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## Pathetic Shark (May 26, 2021)

IanM said:



			My "community leader" didn't convince me.  Do I have a community leader? 

Click to expand...

It's Fragger!


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## Ethan (May 26, 2021)

RichA said:



			It's still only considered to be a very rare side effect, yet you have raised it a few times on this golf forum.
I hope it hasn't put anyone off being vaccinated.
		
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OK, so I need to justify myself to you.

The events are very rare, but not unimportant. At the start of this adverse event story, the UK-reported rate was less than 1 in a million. I said that this almost certainly involved significant under-reporting, because I have dealt with these reporting systems, and I was right. It is now 1 in 50,000, a 20-fold increase. But the media and many people in the general public still see this as a lightning strike event. But for younger people and at a time of lowish prevalence (and therefore risk) of Covid, it is a finely balanced risk, as evidenced by the JCVI advice. They didn't take that because of me raising the issue on a golf forum, I imagine. 

This report today is important because hitherto, all these events were on the venous side of the circulation. I speculated that it seemed highly unlikely that problems on the arrival side would not also occur, and these are exactly that. More problematically, these events have a higher background rate and are less noticeable than CVST and SVT, the initially reported events.

Now you may not give a toss if there is a large safety problem with this vaccine, but I do.

And how dare you accuse me of possibly putting people at harm. Withdraw that accusation, please.


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## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2021)

@Ethan You do seem to have a bit of a downer on the AZ vaccine for some reason. I may be wrong but it does come across as though you are looking for reasons to dismiss it whether through comparisons of efficacy to the other vaccines or by highlighting these stories about it. A few days ago a report came out from the US that the CDC were investigating cases of heart problems (I think) in younger adults and children who had been given the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine but you seem to have ignored that.

As I said I may be completely wrong and it's always difficult to judge the tone of a written post but my reading of some of your previous posts is that you aren't as supportive of the AZ vaccine as you are of the others.


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## IanM (May 26, 2021)

I guess if you remove Personal agendas and hindsight, it'll be a really quiet morning on Covid in the Press


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## Ethan (May 26, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



@Ethan You do seem to have a bit of a downer on the AZ vaccine for some reason. I may be wrong but it does come across as though you are looking for reasons to dismiss it whether through comparisons of efficacy to the other vaccines or by highlighting these stories about it. A few days ago a report came out from the US that the CDC were investigating cases of heart problems (I think) in younger adults and children who had been given the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine but you seem to have ignored that.

As I said I may be completely wrong and it's always difficult to judge the tone of a written post but my reading of some of your previous posts is that you aren't as supportive of the AZ vaccine as you are of the others.
		
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I am aware of the report of myocarditis with mRNA vaccines. That is actually old news, first reported last year, and quickly thought by many to be a red herring because of the way the cases clustered in one place and nowhere else. Sorry if I didn't post extensively on the non-story then. A few weeks ago, FDA and CDC reported they saw no relationship between the Pfizer vaccine and those events. You may wish to edit your accusation I ignored that breaking news.

The reports of adverse events with AZ (and Janssen) are, on the there hand, real and connected to the design of the vaccine, in particular the adenovirus vector. Exactly the same happens with the similar Janssen vaccine and almost certainly happens with Sputnik, although that has not been reported. The possibility of the vector causing an immunological problem was identified at the very start, although considered to mainly to reduce efficacy. That may also happen, because the efficacy of AZ and Janssen is less than the mRNAs, but the safety issues related to the same issue have overtaken that as a concern.

One of my big concerns was the hasty manner in which initial reports were quickly taken as the final word, because I know the reliability of adverse event reports when compared to proper epidemiology, and so it proved. The scale of this problem was unknowable at the start, yet many dismissed it out of hand, accompanied with various political theories, but the real incidence has grown as it inevitably was going to do.

I don't have a downer on AZ. I have friends and relatives that got it, and the overall success of the country and world's Covid strategy depends to a large extent on it. It is a good vaccine, but I think, and ample evidence exists to suggest, that the mRNAs are better. I am indeed therefore less supportive of it if alternatives are available. Essentially the vaccines all do the same thing but the delivery mechanism for the adenovirus vectors impairs it a bit, whereas the mRNAs are a "cleaner" way of delivering the immune response.


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## RichA (May 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			OK, so I need to justify myself to you.
		
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Not really. I'm just a punter on a golf forum posting under a pseudonym.


Ethan said:



			Now you may not give a toss if there is a large safety problem with this vaccine, but I do.
		
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I would care greatly, if it seemed to be the case, but fear of vaccination seems to be a more dangerous issue.


Ethan said:



			And how dare you accuse me of possibly putting people at harm. Withdraw that accusation, please.
		
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I didn't accuse you of anything. It's just a conversation on a golf forum where vaccine fear has been discussed.


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## larmen (May 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			All leaders in the area , religious, council, celebs, respected people .. should take the vaccine and make a massive deal of it like khan did in London all over twitter etc etc and how all MPs have done

Just show it's safe

Dunno what more people can want than those in charge taking it .. they wouldn't take something unsafe
		
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Didn’t that already happen? I think to remember a push during Ramadan because people thought it wasn’t possible while fasting.


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## pauljames87 (May 26, 2021)

larmen said:



			Didn’t that already happen? I think to remember a push during Ramadan because people thought it wasn’t possible while fasting.
		
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More needs to be made not just one off


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## Ethan (May 26, 2021)

RichA said:



			Not really. I'm just a punter on a golf forum posting under a pseudonym.

I would care greatly, if it seemed to be the case, but fear of vaccination seems to be a more dangerous issue.

I didn't accuse you of anything. It's just a conversation on a golf forum where vaccine fear has been discussed.
		
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You accused me of raising this issue a number of times and implied that you thought some people might not get vaccinated as a result.

Be a man about it, don't sneak around semantics.


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## RichA (May 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You accused me of raising this issue a number of times and implied that you thought some people might not get vaccinated as a result.

Be a man about it, don't sneak around semantics.
		
Click to expand...

You say, "accused", I say pointed out - as did someone else.
Sorry to burst your bubble Ethan, but I don't place that much importance on your lengthy posts showing off your medical expertise on this internet golf forum.
Nor do I expect or intend anyone to take my own posts on any subject on this internet golf forum too seriously - I certainly don't. It is, after all, just an internet golf forum, not a public inquiry. We're just having conversations about what's going on in the world.


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## theoneandonly (May 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You accused me of raising this issue a number of times and implied that you thought some people might not get vaccinated as a result.

Be a man about it, don't sneak around semantics.
		
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I agree with RichA, I don't find your post's of any real use and tbf you come accross as quite self important and can be very condescending It was a nicer thread when you had your little flounce and stopped posting. I guess your hangers on may disagree.


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## Ethan (May 26, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I agree with RichA, I don't find your post's of any real use and tbf you come accross as quite self important and can be very condescending It was a nicer thread when you had your little flounce and stopped posting. I guess your hangers on may disagree.
		
Click to expand...

Well, block me, then. Please. Or at least ignore my posts and I agree not to share my opinion of your value to the forum. I was considering leaving the forum, but I think I will stick around a bit longer just for you.


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## Ethan (May 26, 2021)

RichA said:



			You say, "accused", I say pointed out - as did someone else.
Sorry to burst your bubble Ethan, but I don't place that much importance on your lengthy posts showing off your medical expertise on this internet golf forum.
Nor do I expect or intend anyone to take my own posts on any subject on this internet golf forum too seriously - I certainly don't. It is, after all, just an internet golf forum, not a public inquiry. We're just having conversations about what's going on in the world.
		
Click to expand...

I really don't give a flying [redacted] what you think of my posts. Don't read my posts then and your petty vindictiveness won't be so easily triggered.


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## Foxholer (May 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			... Some private GPs get very pissed off after a while with *over-demanding patients who have little wrong with them but expect 24/7 service*.
		
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It's not just GPs! I work with a (imo) hypocondriac! And on the few occasions I've been to my practice's surgery (Livi is great for my current needs), it's surprising how many 'familiar' faces seemed to be there!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I take it you mean " up to others to accept them or reject them, as they see fit"?
I'm all for strong opinions ( have them myself from time to time ), but then it is necessary to allow others the same , and be prepared for others to strongly criticise those strong opinions you have expressed, without insult or belittling.
Basic forum participation.
As it happens, I thought he was amusingly using hyperbole, but it seems he wasn't. Though for the life of me, I do not see why he wishes he had not had the first jab! ( I take it that is what he said)...
Care to enlighten, Dog?🤔
		
Click to expand...

Sorry yes - let me expand 

Many people have strong opinions , as long as they are posted respectively , without derogatory comments and without looking to point score than many will listen or in the forum case read those strong opinions and if some disagree they will respond with the same level of respect towards the poster.


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## SaintHacker (May 26, 2021)

Over 3000 new cases reportes today, not a good figure


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## road2ruin (May 26, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Over 3000 new cases reportes today, not a good figure
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it's all that bad, I suspect these figures are distorted by a few areas and their surge testing plus cases will increase as restrictions are relaxed. Hospitalisations is the one you want to watch.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 26, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I agree with RichA, I don't find your post's of any real use and tbf you come accross as quite self important and can be very condescending It was a nicer thread when you had your little flounce and stopped posting. I guess your hangers on may disagree.
		
Click to expand...

Sort of let the cat out the bag there haven’t you? Apparently you only joined in Jan this year but are aware of Ethan leaving the forum for a while and coming back

I guess those who guessed you are an old poster back on a new name are correct.

Let’s hope the mods find out and your banned again or we find your previous username from you had your flounce.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 26, 2021)

Thread cleaned up and posts that are political or verging that way have been removed.


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## drdel (May 26, 2021)

More theme content and less bickering would IMO make for more interesting read.


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Sort of let the cat out the bag there haven’t you? Apparently you only joined in Jan this year but are aware of Ethan leaving the forum for a while and coming back

I guess those who guessed you are an old poster back on a new name are correct.

Let’s hope the mods find out and your banned again or we find your previous username from you had your flounce.

Click to expand...

Oh no! It's not Dell back is it 😱


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## drdel (May 26, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Sort of let the cat out the bag there haven’t you? Apparently you only joined in Jan this year but are aware of Ethan leaving the forum for a while and coming back

I guess those who guessed you are an old poster back on a new name are correct.

Let’s hope the mods find out and your banned again or we find your previous username from you had your flounce.

Click to expand...

He may have been reading long before registering


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## Imurg (May 26, 2021)

Well..shock of the day.
The Boy ( 20 in a couple of weeks) had a voicemail from the GP today.
He's phoning them tomorrow about getting a jab....
We must be well ahead of the game around here..


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## SaintHacker (May 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think it's all that bad, I suspect these figures are distorted by a few areas and their surge testing plus cases will increase as restrictions are relaxed. Hospitalisations is the one you want to watch.
		
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I guess so. Just feels a bit like a kick in the teeth after all the good news lately and with us being so close to being 'released' completely


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## larmen (May 26, 2021)

One of those 8  areas (Hounslow) starts only about 1 1/2 miles from here. Our school, while the catchment area technically is just a few hundred meters short of it, gets a lot of traffic from there. The local area FB group is irritated that the bus isn’t suspended.

Not sure if I can generate the energy to be irritated about it. Just don’t restrict us, 1st ‘holiday’ (long weekend away) in 18 months coming up.


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## theoneandonly (May 26, 2021)

drdel said:



			He may have been reading long before registering 

Click to expand...

He should make an effort to read my first post, rather than just be stalker.


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## D-S (May 26, 2021)

This is interesting 
https://www.ft.com/content/f76eb802-ec05-4461-9956-b250115d0577


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## ColchesterFC (May 26, 2021)

D-S said:



			This is interesting
https://www.ft.com/content/f76eb802-ec05-4461-9956-b250115d0577

Click to expand...

Can you summarise/screenshot please it's behind a paywall.


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## D-S (May 26, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Can you summarise/screenshot please it's behind a paywall.
		
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Sorry, I could see it on a twiiter link. Fundamentally it is an article in the FT claiming that German scientists have found the cause of the blood clot issue in AZ vac and they also are saying that there is an easy minor tweak that can be done to stop it. Given that there are many many millions of arms worldwide that still need jabbing, if this could be done lives will be saved not only from the issue itself but also by minimising vaccine hesitancy.


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## Blue in Munich (May 26, 2021)

D-S said:



			Sorry, I could see it on a twiiter link. Fundamentally it is an article in the FT claiming that German scientists have found the cause of the blood clot issue in AZ vac and they also are saying that there is an easy minor tweak that can be done to stop it. Given that there are many many millions of arms worldwide that still need jabbing, if this could be done lives will be saved not only from the issue itself but also by minimising vaccine hesitancy.
		
Click to expand...

Does it say if it can be applied retrospectively, or are all of us already done hostages to our fate?


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## Lilyhawk (May 27, 2021)

Had my first jab on Monday afternoon. Struggling to lift my arm yesterday, but just a tad sore today so should be all good for the weekend. 

A steady stream of people in the que but everything was running like a clockwork. 

It would be interesting by this point to know of those being hospitalised for Covid, what is the ratio between jabbed vs non-jabbed (and who are eligible for it but just haven't taken it up).


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## 3offTheTee (May 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh no! It's not Dell back is it 😱
		
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Well I am playing at Downfield next week where I think Cabby is a member. You may remember him! There is a guy who fits his description playing 30 minutes after me.


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## 3offTheTee (May 27, 2021)

Well Melbourne 5,000,000 inhabitants has gone into lockdown for 7 days. They have 26 cases!!!


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## Lord Tyrion (May 27, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Had my first jab on Monday afternoon. Struggling to lift my arm yesterday, but just a tad sore today so should be all good for the weekend.

A steady stream of people in the que but everything was running like a clockwork.

It would be interesting by this point to know of those being hospitalised for Covid, what is the ratio between jabbed vs non-jabbed (and who are eligible for it but just haven't taken it up).
		
Click to expand...

I believe that in the areas seeing spikes the ratio of infected is 90% not jabbed, 10% jabbed. I don't think they have stated hospitalizations but I could be wrong. Ian important point though so it would be interesting to hear.

A good chunk of those infected in one town were certainly of an age where jabs were available to them but they chose not to have them. I can't remember the figures now so I won't mention the town.


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## theoneandonly (May 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I believe that in the areas seeing spikes the ratio of infected is 90% not jabbed, 10% jabbed. I don't think they have stated hospitalizations but I could be wrong. Ian important point though so it would be interesting to hear.

A good chunk of those infected in one town were certainly of an age where jabs were available to them but they chose not to have them. I can't remember the figures now so I won't mention the town.
		
Click to expand...

Bolton isn't it?


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## fundy (May 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I believe that in the areas seeing spikes the ratio of infected is 90% not jabbed, 10% jabbed. I don't think they have stated hospitalizations but I could be wrong. Ian important point though so it would be interesting to hear.

A good chunk of those infected in one town were certainly of an age where jabs were available to them but they chose not to have them. I can't remember the figures now so I won't mention the town.
		
Click to expand...


do you have a source for these numbers?


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## theoneandonly (May 27, 2021)

Matt Hancock gave an update last week that most of the hospitalisations in Bolton were people elligble for the vaccine but hadnt taken it.
At that time it was something like 8 who had refused vaccine and 2 who had had it.


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## GB72 (May 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			do you have a source for these numbers?
		
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It was on the BBC live reporting stream today.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2021)

Second vaccine done today - could feel rbe relief when it was done.  I’m off to go and replace by MacBook now


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## D-S (May 27, 2021)

Here’s a link to a twitter thread re numbers of vaccinated versus unvaccinated who are hospitalised.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1397884961227689984


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## Lord Tyrion (May 27, 2021)

fundy said:



			do you have a source for these numbers?
		
Click to expand...




GB72 said:



			It was on the BBC live reporting stream today.
		
Click to expand...

What he said 😄


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## RichA (May 27, 2021)

AZ number 2 in. Only side effects so far are an unquenchable thirst for red wine and a massive appetite for tortilla chips and almonds. And chocolate. And jelly beans. And peanut butter on rice cakes. To be fair it wasn't the biggest curry I've made at dinner time.
Anyone else get the munchies from their jab?


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## IainP (May 27, 2021)

Another who had AZ number 2 today. Little nap after work. Always hungry so hard to tell if different 😂


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## Old Skier (May 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Second vaccine done today - could feel rbe relief when it was done.  I’m off to go and replace by MacBook now
		
Click to expand...

Don’t tell me a further effect is it buggers up Apple products


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## SaintHacker (May 27, 2021)

Cases up again today amd government/scientists now making hints about not going ahead with the next stage of unlocking. Doesn't take a genius to see which way this is going


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2021)

With news on the India virus not great we are becoming ever more worried about the 21st June date being slipped and the impact that might have on reopening of performance venues, theatres and night clubs.  I cannot express how utterly dismayed we are that circumstances are such that this might happen.


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## larmen (May 27, 2021)

IainP said:



			Another who had AZ number 2 today. Little nap after work. Always hungry so hard to tell if different 😂
		
Click to expand...

Have you tried a magnet at your arm yet? Apparently that is a thing these days.


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## drdel (May 27, 2021)

And now a Thai variant hits 100+ cases in UK.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 27, 2021)

What worries me about these variants is why do they seem to spread so quickly in the UK compared to other Countries?
The Indian strain has been identified in other European Countries for weeks (same as UK) but none of them appear to be having the same increases as us and now more Countries are talking about putting the UK on their “Red List” for travellers.


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## bobmac (May 28, 2021)

Do we know whether these new cases are from people who have already been vaccinated?


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## SaintHacker (May 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Do we know whether these new cases are from people who have already been vaccinated?
		
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One report in the news suggested 60% of new infections were in the unvaccinated, and the hospitalisation rate was something like 90%, so it appears the vacine is doing its job and keeping people out of hospital. I just hope we don't all have to suffer for longer because of the selfish few


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## road2ruin (May 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			What worries me about these variants is why do they seem to spread so quickly in the UK compared to other Countries?
The Indian strain has been identified in other European Countries for weeks (same as UK) but none of them appear to be having the same increases as us and now more Countries are talking about putting the UK on their “Red List” for travellers.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly as a result of the testing rates in each of the countries? We’ve gone all in on surge testing in the hot spots which will result in the number of detected cases going up. Do other countries do the same?


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## need_my_wedge (May 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With news on the India virus not great we are becoming ever more worried about the 21st June date being slipped and the impact that might have on reopening of performance venues, theatres and night clubs.  I cannot express how utterly dismayed we are that circumstances are such that this might happen.
		
Click to expand...

This bugs the f*** out of me too. I just don't get why people are so selfish, travelling and potentially spreading the virus. There has been so much pain and sacrifice over the last year and a half, just when we see some light, it makes me so angry when I hear of people undermining the whole effort, whether intentional or not. It doesn't help with the likes of UEFA holding a cup final with two English teams, in Portugal, why not rearrange in the UK with minimal foreign travel. or the Olympic committee insisting on the games going ahead and sending 1000's of athletes from multiple countries into Tokyo. Just beggars belief at time.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			This bugs the f*** out of me too. I just don't get why people are so selfish, travelling and potentially spreading the virus. There has been so much pain and sacrifice over the last year and a half, just when we see some light, it makes me so angry when I hear of people undermining the whole effort, whether intentional or not. It doesn't help with the likes of UEFA holding a cup final with two English teams, in Portugal, why not rearrange in the UK with minimal foreign travel. or the Olympic committee insisting on the games going ahead and sending 1000's of athletes from multiple countries into Tokyo. Just beggars belief at time.
		
Click to expand...

No wonder these variants are getting in.
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...-were-meant-to-be-heavily-restricted-12318777


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## road2ruin (May 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			No wonder these variants are getting in.
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...-were-meant-to-be-heavily-restricted-12318777

Click to expand...

The present issue is down to a political decision not to add India to the red list immediately which gave thousands of people the chance to get back into the UK before it was, inevitably added, coupled with a cultural issue of those returning living in multigenerational households and being amongst the largest groups refusing the vaccine. You just have to look at the hotspots to see that is the case however it's now going to cause wider issues with spread outside of those communities.


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## pauljames87 (May 28, 2021)

Still think international travel should be off the table for another year 

Green zones are just economy prop ups


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The present issue is down to a political decision not to add India to the red list immediately which gave thousands of people the chance to get back into the UK before it was, inevitably added, coupled with a cultural issue of those returning living in multigenerational households and being amongst the largest groups refusing the vaccine. You just have to look at the hotspots to see that is the case however it's now going to cause wider issues with spread outside of those communities.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not just the Indian variant though, I believe 7 out of 10 variants listed on the Gov website originated abroad, I know we can’t close our borders completely but the sheer numbers still coming in are ridiculous.


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## road2ruin (May 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s not just the Indian variant though, I believe 7 out of 10 variants listed on the Gov website originated abroad, I know we can’t close our borders completely but the sheer numbers still coming in are ridiculous.

Click to expand...

I'm never sure how much that holds water, I think the variants circulate all over the place and you'll never really know where they originated. The reason we are picking so many up is that we're responsible for over 50% of the worlds genome testing (I think that figure is correct) so we're the ones picking them up which makes it look like we are a hot bed of virus. In reality they're in every country, they just haven't been picked up yet. 

I was reading an articule on Uruguay last night, they were held up as one of the standard bearers of dealing with Covid but are now dealing with huge spike. All you can do with Covid is protect the vulnerable, it will always get into a country at some point and there is nothing you can do to stop it. I think the phrase was 'dry kindling' so those countries who have got away lightly may well still find that they have to deal with issues further down the line, interesting to see what happens with NZ ones they're fully open.


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## bobmac (May 28, 2021)

*COVID vaccines effective against all known variants, says WHO*
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-vaccines-effective-against-all-known-variants-says-who/a-57600323


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm never sure how much that holds water, I think the variants circulate all over the place and you'll never really know where they originated. The reason we are picking so many up is that we're responsible for over 50% of the worlds genome testing (I think that figure is correct) so we're the ones picking them up which makes it look like we are a hot bed of virus. In reality they're in every country, they just haven't been picked up yet.

I was reading an articule on Uruguay last night, they were held up as one of the standard bearers of dealing with Covid but are now dealing with huge spike. All you can do with Covid is protect the vulnerable, it will always get into a country at some point and there is nothing you can do to stop it. I think the phrase was 'dry kindling' so those countries who have got away lightly may well still find that they have to deal with issues further down the line, interesting to see what happens with NZ ones they're fully open.
		
Click to expand...

So if it is as you say, why aren’t other Countries recognising this rather than treating us as some sort of pariah?

Or on the reverse, stop their nationsls coming here, It just feels at times we are dealing with this do much better than many Countries, but instead of learning from us we get treated as the bad guy!


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## SaintHacker (May 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Still think international travel should be off the table for another year

Green zones are just economy prop ups
		
Click to expand...

Why? Whats the issue with people from a highly vaccinated country visiting another highly vaccinated country, taking tests etc. Its probably safer than a weekend in Blackpool. not to mention the amount of further job losses it would cause in the tourism sector.


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## SaintHacker (May 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



*COVID vaccines effective against all known variants, says WHO*
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-vaccines-effective-against-all-known-variants-says-who/a-57600323

Click to expand...

Great news. So they've really not got an excuse not to go ahead with the final unlocking, although no doubt they will try to find one


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Great news. So they've really not got an excuse not to go ahead with the final unlocking, although no doubt they will try to find one
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that report is 8 days old and doesn’t seem to be taken any notice of.


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## road2ruin (May 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So if it is as you say, why aren’t other Countries recognising this rather than treating us as some sort of pariah?

Or on the reverse, stop their nationsls coming here, It just feels at times we are dealing with this do much better than many Countries, but instead of learning from us we get treated as the bad guy!
		
Click to expand...

That I don't know, the cynic would suggest an element of denial, "If we don't detect it then we haven't got it" type thing? Maybe it's PR, easier to blame the UK for these variants than admitting that your own Covid solutions aren't working? To be honest the UK should have been a lot more like those countries in terms of their willingness to add countries to the red list. Stopping all travel and therefore Covid variants was never an option however stopping the majority of travel from certain, very obvious, countires was and we didn't.


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## road2ruin (May 28, 2021)

Here is the Uruguay chart, seems to me it goes some way to proving that all you can do is protect the most vulnerable as Covid will get in and you will, at some point, have to live with it.


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## BiMGuy (May 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Here is the Uruguay chart, seems to me it goes some way to proving that all you can do is protect the most vulnerable as Covid will get in and you will, at some point, have to live with it. 

View attachment 36820

Click to expand...

Its here. Its not going away. We have to live with it.

The sooner everyone realises that the better. And we can get back to living some kind of normal life where people are free to take whatever precautions they feel are appropriate for them.


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## pauljames87 (May 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Why? Whats the issue with people from a highly vaccinated country visiting another highly vaccinated country, taking tests etc. Its probably safer than a weekend in Blackpool. not to mention the amount of further job losses it would cause in the tourism sector.
		
Click to expand...

Because variants are getting in through travel, was always going to be the case. 

International travel especially holidays should be banned until 2022 when we have more of an idea if the vaccine actually works fully and what varrients are about 

By all means open our own country up a bit allow for recovery but it's irresponsible and down right dangerous  allowing travel 

We are allowed to Portugal for example but not Spain, are the Spanish, french, Germans allowed to Portugal? If they are it's dangerous as we could be mixing around amber lists 

Portugal also has links with Brazil ..all it takes is a bit of lax and we back to square one 

The Indian varrient has taken hold so to speak due to people being allowed back for 4 days without having to quarantine. Before they were put on the red list 

They should have gone right everyone back now you will have to go in a hotel for 10 days but we will pay it's cheaper than another varrient going undetected

Too easy for green to slip to amber to red at any moment 

All to prop up the travel industry rather than do what's right


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## bobmac (May 28, 2021)




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## Tashyboy (May 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



*COVID vaccines effective against all known variants, says WHO*
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-vaccines-effective-against-all-known-variants-says-who/a-57600323

Click to expand...

As much as that is brilliant news, there may well come a day when it is not effective against all. An ever changing Covid variant may well make the vaccine about as useful as a ashtray on a motorbike. If that’s the case we are back at square one.
My Major grief is as Paul has said, the amount of people coming into the UK is not helping. 500 K citizens. 1 million foreigner 😳


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## Tashyboy (May 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Why? Whats the issue with people from a highly vaccinated country visiting another highly vaccinated country, taking tests etc. Its probably safer than a weekend in Blackpool. not to mention the amount of further job losses it would cause in the tourism sector.
		
Click to expand...

If that was the case then fantastic, but some of the people coming into the UK have been coming from other red zone countries and flying into green zone then onto the UK. As much as vaccination has been fantastic in the UK, some. Or tries are now banning the UK citizens from entering there countries due to different variants ☹️


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## SaintHacker (May 28, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Because variants are getting in through travel, was always going to be the case.

International travel especially holidays should be banned until 2022 when we have more of an idea if the vaccine actually works fully and what varrients are about

By all means open our own country up a bit allow for recovery but it's irresponsible and down right dangerous  allowing travel

We are allowed to Portugal for example but not Spain, are the Spanish, french, Germans allowed to Portugal? If they are it's dangerous as we could be mixing around amber lists

Portugal also has links with Brazil ..all it takes is a bit of lax and we back to square one

The Indian varrient has taken hold so to speak due to people being allowed back for 4 days without having to quarantine. Before they were put on the red list

They should have gone right everyone back now you will have to go in a hotel for 10 days but we will pay it's cheaper than another varrient going undetected

Too easy for green to slip to amber to red at any moment

All to prop up the travel industry rather than do what's right
		
Click to expand...

Face it this thing this thing is never going away, it will become something we have to live with. So do we ban international travel for ever? Sooner or later we are going to have to roll up our sleeves and get on with life. For nearly 18 months we've been restricted in our daily lives, jobs have been lost, cancers and other nasty fatal diseases have gone untreated, peoples mental health has taken a huge hit. We've done what we were asked, the elderly and vulnerable arw protected, and if they're not then more fool them. In my opinion its time we started getting back to normal.


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## SaintHacker (May 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			As much as that is brilliant news, there may well come a day when it is not effective against all. An ever changing Covid variant may well make the vaccine about as useful as a ashtray on a motorbike. If that’s the case we are back at square one.
My Major grief is as Paul has said, the amount of people coming into the UK is not helping. 500 K citizens. 1 million foreigner 😳
		
Click to expand...

And you can guarantee that one day a new virus will emerge and travel the world, and we will be back to square one with that. Do we stay locked up forever, just in case?


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## GreiginFife (May 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			As much as that is brilliant news, there may well come a day when it is not effective against all. An ever changing Covid variant may well make the vaccine about as useful as a ashtray on a motorbike. If that’s the case we are back at square one.
My Major grief is as Paul has said, the amount of people coming into the UK is not helping. 500 K citizens. 1 million foreigner 😳
		
Click to expand...

You mean like, say, the flu? Where it mutates all the time. 

If only there was some science type people to develop vaccines so that they evolve over time... 

Come on Tashy, you don't genuinely belive that the vaccine will stand still and the once we get now will be the one we always get?

Yes, Covid will be with us for a long while yet but we have other viruses that are also pretty much with us all the time. Christ, we still get measles doing the rounds now and again. 

Over time and with time, we WILL get better at developing vaccines to Covid. The first was a rush job remember (but damn good for a rush job at that). The scientists will settle in to a research and development routine soon enough and the same trust you place in thr flu vaccine protecting you should be given to the Covid vaccine IMO. 

We're by no means out of the woods yet but we can certainly see the sky.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 28, 2021)

There’s no doubt that there will come a time we’ll just “accept” it and get on with life, the problem is identifying when the time is right, for some it should of been last year, for some the near future and, possibly, for some the far future.

It’s ok us in the UK saying enoughs enough if the rest of the World disagree.


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## PNWokingham (May 28, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Its here. Its not going away. We have to live with it.

The sooner everyone realises that the better. And we can get back to living some kind of normal life where people are free to take whatever precautions they feel are appropriate for them.
		
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Agree with this. We are nearly all vaccinated and will be fully (adults) soon. The vaccine works at eliminating the worst symptoms and a large element of hospitalisations. It also reduces transmitability. Without having seen any figures i would have thought deaths from the UK as a vaccinated country are likely to be similar to flu. And that means we have to get back to life as normal and live with this like flu and every other disease.


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## pauljames87 (May 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Face it this thing this thing is never going away, it will become something we have to live with. So do we ban international travel for ever? Sooner or later we are going to have to roll up our sleeves and get on with life. For nearly 18 months we've been restricted in our daily lives, jobs have been lost, cancers and other nasty fatal diseases have gone untreated, peoples mental health has taken a huge hit. We've done what we were asked, the elderly and vulnerable arw protected, and if they're not then more fool them. In my opinion its time we started getting back to normal.
		
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However. It's still too soon

This a global pandemic not a UK wide pandemic

By all means get what we can in the UK itself back to some kind of normal, live with rapid  tests and isolation

But until everywhere is double jabbed including seeing through a winter to see what the true effectiveness of the vaccine is and how it will work in less favourable conditions then international Jollys need banning 

This time next year by all means providing we haven't gone backwards but we are learning all time

However we as a country seem to see our mistakes and ready to repeat them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 28, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Its here. Its not going away. We have to live with it.

The sooner everyone realises that the better. And we can get back to living some kind of normal life where people are free to take whatever precautions they feel are appropriate for them.
		
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Well we all know who it is that can help us move to the position of understanding, acceptance and trust that will enable us all to get on with life. And unfortunately it’s nobody on this forum.


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## DRW (May 28, 2021)

Some really good details here on vaccination details of some of the variants, which is taken from the last reports, well worth a read :-

Meaghan Kall on Twitter: "New @PHE_uk variant reports published: Technical Briefing 13 on B.1.617.2 https://t.co/4QxZVfRnS9 Variant update 3 https://t.co/kmN7xW6qfh B.1.617.2 Risk Assessment https://t.co/tb7mqoAskW" / Twitter 

Enjoy

We do masses of genome sequencing here, when compared to other countries. This is good, as it will highlight variants that are maybe around and with lab testing of variants, will tell us how likely certain variants can break through. Lots of information on this on twitter, if you wish to read about the variants and vaccines effectiveness with them.

CDC also has interesting information relating to vaccine break throughs (think they have just dropped keeping a records of the minor infections/vaccine status/variant but are going to keep a record of more serious cases)

Stay safe


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## Tashyboy (May 28, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			You mean like, say, the flu? Where it mutates all the time.

If only there was some science type people to develop vaccines so that they evolve over time...

*Come on Tashy, you don't genuinely belive that the vaccine will stand still and the once we get now will be the one we always get?*

Yes, Covid will be with us for a long while yet but we have other viruses that are also pretty much with us all the time. Christ, we still get measles doing the rounds now and again.

Over time and with time, we WILL get better at developing vaccines to Covid. The first was a rush job remember (but damn good for a rush job at that). The scientists will settle in to a research and development routine soon enough and the same trust you place in thr flu vaccine protecting you should be given to the Covid vaccine IMO.

We're by no means out of the woods yet but we can certainly see the sky.
		
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i don't believe that the vaccine will stand still. But it seems to me that the vaccine is now the primary defence against Covid. And without getting to political restrictions are rammel.


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## GreiginFife (May 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			i don't believe that the vaccine will stand still. But it seems to me that the vaccine is now the primary defence against Covid. And without getting to political restrictions are rammel.
		
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I think you're in danger of only thinking in "here and now" terms. Easy to do as it's the here-and-now that's affecting us. 

We rely on the flu vaccine to an extent as well, relying on vaccines is nothing new. There might be a slight shift in the risk profile (who is most vulnerable) but by-and-large we already rely on vaccines to various virus infections as is. 

Restrictions are, indeed rammel as you put it, but any new or unknown virus that comes along is going to give us problems early doors until the knowledge, understanding and, importantly, solutions can mature. Which we WILL get to. 

Big picture thinking is that we will learn to live with covid, like the flu, just with a different risk profile (vaccinate most at risk early and often as we do with flu). 

Is it the same as flu? No, and I'm not saying it is, but that's not to say that the solution isn't the same with adjusted parameters.


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## Tashyboy (May 28, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I think you're in danger of only thinking in "here and now" terms. Easy to do as it's the here-and-now that's affecting us.

We rely on the flu vaccine to an extent as well, relying on vaccines is nothing new. There might be a slight shift in the risk profile (who is most vulnerable) but by-and-large we already rely on vaccines to various virus infections as is.

Restrictions are, indeed rammel as you put it, but any new or unknown virus that comes along is going to give us problems early doors until the knowledge, understanding and, importantly, solutions can mature. Which we WILL get to.

Big picture thinking is that we will learn to live with covid, like the flu, just with a different risk profile (vaccinate most at risk early and often as we do with flu).

Is it the same as flu? No, and I'm not saying it is, but that's not to say that the solution isn't the same with adjusted parameters.
		
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I was fortunate that Missis T mentioned early doors/ last year about virus mutations, vaccines to combat the virus, vaccines to combat mutations. Etc. She also mentioned a month before it became a concern re care homes and vulnerable elderly people with underlying conditions.
My main concerns at the moment ( there’s 2 ) is that when a new virus comes along, Kent, Indian etc. There is some level of concern re will the current AZ, Pfizer etc vaccines give some level of protection. At the moment the vaccines have held up, but for how long. The second concern is. How are these Indian, Brazilian variants getting here so easily. We all know the answer to that and that is where my rammel restrictions comment comes in. I honestly do believe that restrictions should be gradually eased, but the way things have been handled I can see us having taking a few backward steps ☹️


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## Blue in Munich (May 28, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			This bugs the f*** out of me too. I just don't get why people are so selfish, travelling and potentially spreading the virus. There has been so much pain and sacrifice over the last year and a half, just when we see some light, it makes me so angry when I hear of people undermining the whole effort, whether intentional or not. It doesn't help with the likes of *UEFA holding a cup final with two English teams, in Portugal, why not rearrange in the UK with minimal foreign travel.* or the Olympic committee insisting on the games going ahead and sending 1000's of athletes from multiple countries into Tokyo. Just beggars belief at time.
		
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Apparently, UEFA came to the Government wanting exemptions to our quarantine restrictions for their sponsors, dignitaries and broadcasters.  The Government apparently refused so UEFA showed their true colours and followed the money rather than considering the fans and found a Government that would cave in to their demands.

Despite the fact that I will be sitting in my living room tomorrow evening rather than in Wembley stadium, I can only applaud the Government for sticking to its guns, and my opinion of UEFA has plumbed new depths, which believe me takes some doing.

Having had yet another concert cancelled this week, I can only hope we are getting near the end of this because the current existence that we have is doing nothing for me.


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## GreiginFife (May 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I was fortunate that Missis T mentioned early doors/ last year about virus mutations, vaccines to combat the virus, vaccines to combat mutations. Etc. She also mentioned a month before it became a concern re care homes and vulnerable elderly people with underlying conditions.
My main concerns at the moment ( there’s 2 ) is that when a new virus comes along, Kent, Indian etc. There is some level of concern re will the current AZ, Pfizer etc vaccines give some level of protection. At the moment the vaccines have held up, but for how long. The second concern is. How are these Indian, Brazilian variants getting here so easily. We all know the answer to that and that is where my rammel restrictions comment comes in. I honestly do believe that restrictions should be gradually eased, but the way things have been handled I can see us having taking a few backward steps ☹️
		
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Well, you *think* you know the answer. You do know that the variants may not have originated in the places they are named after, right? Its only where they were first discovered. 
There is absolutely nothing to say that the "Indian" strain didn't mutate inside the body of a 18 year old ginger kid called Gavin from Mansfield and passed on to someone that travelled to India... 

There are many possibilities as to how variants get around. We may very well have had the variants all along we just don't know. 

But equally we can't just jump on the "if the borders were closed" bandwagon. 

Yes, we may need to take a step backwards but the sooner we do, the shorter the requirement. After all, let's not forget what happened only a few short months ago due to procrastination. 

I get your frustration, but at this point, and especially at this time, we need to keep our heads and think clearly, not allow emotion to dictate our decisions or around the loop we go. 

All, of course, just my opinion. I personally feel too many are jumping on the easy answers band wagons.


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## Swinglowandslow (May 28, 2021)

It's more about vaccinations and SD practices than it is about variants, IMHO.
We've had the original, Kent and Brazilian have we not.? 
And where the vaccinations have been implemented and SD practiced, we have got on top of them.


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## Tashyboy (May 28, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Well, you *think* you know the answer. You do know that the variants may not have originated in the places they are named after, right? Its only where they were first discovered.
There is absolutely nothing to say that the "Indian" strain didn't mutate inside the body of a 18 year old ginger kid called Gavin from Mansfield and passed on to someone that travelled to India...

There are many possibilities as to how variants get around. We may very well have had the variants all along we just don't know.

But equally we can't just jump on the "if the borders were closed" bandwagon.

Yes, we may need to take a step backwards but the sooner we do, the shorter the requirement. After all, let's not forget what happened only a few short months ago due to procrastination.

I get your frustration, but at this point, and especially at this time, we need to keep our heads and think clearly, not allow emotion to dictate our decisions or around the loop we go.

All, of course, just my opinion. I personally feel too many are jumping on the easy answers band wagons.
		
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GreiginFife said:



			Well, you *think* you know the answer. You do know that the variants may not have originated in the places they are named after, right? Its only where they were first discovered.
There is absolutely nothing to say that the "Indian" strain didn't mutate inside the body of a 18 year old ginger kid called Gavin from Mansfield and passed on to someone that travelled to India...

There are many possibilities as to how variants get around. We may very well have had the variants all along we just don't know.

But equally we can't just jump on the "if the borders were closed" bandwagon.

Yes, we may need to take a step backwards but the sooner we do, the shorter the requirement. After all, let's not forget what happened only a few short months ago due to procrastination.

I get your frustration, but at this point, and especially at this time, we need to keep our heads and think clearly, not allow emotion to dictate our decisions or around the loop we go.

All, of course, just my opinion. I personally feel too many are jumping on the easy answers band wagons.
		
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I don’t think I know the answer, I know I don’t know the answer. But I do know that 1 million coming into the country from abroad, some from high risk countries does not help. Why have we gone through so much turmoil over the last 15 months to literally have open borders 🤔 How is that helping. Even Gavin in Mansfield knows that’s not helping.😁👍


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## theoneandonly (May 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I don’t think I know the answer, I know I don’t know the answer. But I do know that 1 million coming into the country from abroad, some from high risk countries does not help. Why have we gone through so much turmoil over the last 15 months to literally have open borders 🤔 How is that helping. Even Gavin in Mansfield knows that’s not helping.😁👍
		
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Please stop this constant pontificating about international travel as it’s coming from a man who at the start of the pandemic ignored recommendations and jetted across the world potentially spreading or bringing back Covid.

You're embarrassing


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## Pathetic Shark (May 29, 2021)

Just had my second jab brought forward to this morning - maybe the side effect is I will remember how to strike my irons properly again.


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## AmandaJR (May 29, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just had my second jab brought forward to this morning - maybe the side effect is I will remember how to strike my irons properly again.
		
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Didn't work for me!


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## Tashyboy (May 29, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Please stop this constant pontificating about international travel as it’s coming from a man who at the start of the pandemic *ignored recommendations *and jetted across the world potentially spreading or bringing back Covid.

You're embarrassing
		
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You see that’s the point i ignored nothing. I did exactly as the UK government said at the time. Mexico was safe to travel to. End of. When the * UK *went Into lockdown Mexico was still safe. Portugal is now classed as safe to travel to. Are all those that are going embarrassing themselves. 
If you think that the traffic light system is good then it’s you that are embarrassing yourself
Green, good to go Portugal (and Mexico pre lockdown) That works for me.
Red, do not go. That works for me
Amber, you can go but we would prefer that you didn’t. Thats the governments stance. Eh, What the hell is that all about.


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## GreiginFife (May 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I don’t think I know the answer, I know I don’t know the answer. But I do know that 1 million coming into the country from abroad, some from high risk countries does not help. Why have we gone through so much turmoil over the last 15 months to literally have open borders 🤔 How is that helping. Even Gavin in Mansfield knows that’s not helping.😁👍
		
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You stated quite clearly, and I quote "we all know the answer to that..."

You don't know, we don't know. We are just guessing. And there's inherent dangers in guessing. 



Tashyboy said:



			You see that’s the point i ignored nothing. I did exactly as the UK government said at the time. Mexico was safe to travel to. End of. When the * UK *went Into lockdown Mexico was still safe. Portugal is now classed as safe to travel to. Are all those that are going embarrassing themselves.
If you think that the traffic light system is good then it’s you that are embarrassing yourself
Green, good to go Portugal (and Mexico pre lockdown) That works for me.
Red, do not go. That works for me
Amber, you can go but we would prefer that you didn’t. Thats the governments stance. Eh, What the hell is that all about.
		
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Not sure where to start here. 
Ok first, we were advised to lock down and, this is important, not leave home. 
Mexico was safe? We have no idea if Mexico was "safe", we have no idea if you didn't bring a variant back with you.
The main lesson is that just because something is deemed safe, it doesn't mean its advisable or even sensible. Its deemed safe to take a bath in baked beans and whisky, but its probably not advisable nor sensible. 

The lockdown instruction of "stay at home unless for essential travel/supplies" wasn't "stay at home, unless you have a Mexican get away booked".  

Bottom line, no matter how you cut it is we were to stay at home when the lockdown was announced. That "open border" situation is exactly the same as you are complaining about now.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2021)

I agree with Tash regarding the restriction of inward travel faster from countries like India when it was clear they were experiencing a huge increase in infections and also with a new variant that was of concern.  IMO we should have acted a week earlier and insisted anyone arriving from there needed to be placed in quarantine even if it was at public expense.   We can see clearly the effect delaying has made.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 29, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Please stop this constant pontificating about international travel as it’s coming from a man who at the start of the pandemic ignored recommendations and jetted across the world potentially spreading or bringing back Covid.

You're embarrassing
		
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Right, let’s knock this on the head once and for all.

When Tash went to Mexico it was on the allowed list, he didn’t break any rules, therefore he should not be constantly hounded by this.

You may have made a different choice, that’s fine, but let’s not kick someone for making his choice when it was within the rules at that time and therefore perfectly legitimate


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## Slime (May 29, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just had my second jab brought forward to this morning - maybe the side effect is I will remember how to strike my irons properly again.
		
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Didn't work for me either.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 29, 2021)

Slime said:



			Didn't work for me either. 

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 Friend of mine just posted on my Facebook page that the vaccine is made from chemical compounds, not divine holy water.    He's getting a slap for that one.


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## Blue in Munich (May 29, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Right, let’s knock this on the head once and for all.

When Tash went to Mexico it was on the allowed list, he didn’t break any rules, therefore he should not be constantly hounded by this.

You may have made a different choice, that’s fine, but let’s not kick someone for making his choice when it was within the rules at that time and therefore perfectly legitimate
		
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Phil,

Whilst I understand the point you are making, the issue was not with him making the decision to go; the issue was with the lectures being issued from the other side of the Atlantic to the rest of us about not travelling.  The level of hypocrisy in doing that was ridiculous.  The post is on Page 117 & is reproduced below;



Tashyboy said:



			Today's thought of the day.

The Virus does not move,
People move it.
We stop moving,
The Virus stops moving.
The virus dies.
It's as simple as that
		
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If he'd legitimately gone, kept quiet & not lectured anyone else I doubt there would have been a problem.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 29, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Phil,

Whilst I understand the point you are making, the issue was not with him making the decision to go; the issue was with the lectures being issued from the other side of the Atlantic to the rest of us about not travelling.  The level of hypocrisy in doing that was ridiculous.  The post is on Page 117 & is reproduced below;



If he'd legitimately gone, kept quiet & not lectured anyone else I doubt there would have been a problem.
		
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I get that
However I do not want another member hounded off the forum in the same way HJS was, therefore I’d like it to stop
I’ll suggest to Tash that he keeps out of travel related Covid posts 👍


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## Blue in Munich (May 29, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I get that
However I do not want another member hounded off the forum in the same way HJS was, therefore I’d like it to stop
I’ll suggest to Tash that he keeps out of travel related Covid posts 👍
		
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Fair enough.


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## Pathetic Shark (May 29, 2021)

I've got the hump with Tashy going to Mexico because he didn't send me a postcard 😂😂


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## Deleted Member 1156 (May 29, 2021)

There is a world of difference between what's allowed and what is common sense.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2021)

It’s really important that the impact of delaying 21st June is properly understood and assessed as there are many for whom the reopening of life after that date, such as venues for events, happens.  

The lives and careers of many are still currently sitting dead in the water and the impact on their mental health and futures is grim - especially as many of those impacted have had little specific support from government as they hang on - hoping.  

It is easy to hold a very ‘principled’ position in respect of managing spread of the ‘Indian’ variant when personal impact has and would continue to be acceptable...and I have taken one to date...but at some point we have to enable those whose lives have been very severely impacted to restart their lives, and we really consider their needs in the context of an endemic virus.


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## DanFST (May 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s really important that the impact of delaying 21st June is properly understood and assessed as there are many for whom the reopening of life after that date, such as venues for events, happens. 

The lives and careers of many are still currently sitting dead in the water and the impact on their mental health and futures is grim - especially as many of those impacted have had little specific support from government as they hang on - hoping. 

It is easy to hold a very ‘principled’ position in respect of managing spread of the ‘Indian’ variant when personal impact has and would continue to be acceptable...and I have taken one to date...but at some point we have to enable those whose lives have been very severely impacted to restart their lives, and we really consider their needs in the context of an endemic virus.
		
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We've debated many times over the year on this. It's great to see to you changing your position.


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## drdel (May 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s really important that the impact of delaying 21st June is properly understood and assessed as there are many for whom the reopening of life after that date, such as venues for events, happens.

The lives and careers of many are still currently sitting dead in the water and the impact on their mental health and futures is grim - especially as many of those impacted have had little specific support from government as they hang on - hoping.

It is easy to hold a very ‘principled’ position in respect of managing spread of the ‘Indian’ variant when personal impact has and would continue to be acceptable...and I have taken one to date...but at some point we have to enable those whose lives have been very severely impacted to restart their lives, and we really consider their needs in the context of an endemic virus.
		
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I am aware of many SMÈ's who are grateful for the support they have recieved from the State. It's has enabled them to keep employing and minimised the impact of the pandemic.

I think you'll find the UK has done rather better in supporting people than many other nations.


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## DanFST (May 30, 2021)

drdel said:



			I am aware of many SMÈ's who are grateful for the support they have recieved from the State. It's has enabled them to keep employing and minimised the impact of the pandemic.

I think you'll find the UK has done rather better in supporting people than many other nations.
		
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The support has been much better then the majority of other nations. 

People still get left behind tho. And in this case, through no fault of their own.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2021)

drdel said:



			I am aware of many SMÈ's who are grateful for the support they have recieved from the State. It's has enabled them to keep employing and minimised the impact of the pandemic.

I think you'll find the UK has done rather better in supporting people than many other nations.
		
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I’m not saying it hasn’t, not sure why you made the point as it’s not the point I am making, and well done to the government for doing what they did - probably nothing more than what would be expected of any UK government in the circumstances.  

However many in sectors that would be impacted badly by a delay to 21st June have not been so fortunate and find themselves in very difficult mental and financial predicaments (a financial one not particularly helped by rules around UC once a recipient starts earning...but that’s a separate and verging political discussion - but simply a fact of UC-life today).


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## need_my_wedge (May 30, 2021)

My 2nd jab was scheduled for 7th June. Had an email on Thursday telling me I can book an earlier jab as I'm in a priority group but would have to cancel the existing booking first. I figured it was only just a week away so will leave as is because I couldn't guarantee getting an earlier booking at the same location. 

Saturday morning, get a text telling me I can book an earlier appointment blah blah. I make the same decision, happy to wait the week. 

Saturday evening, I find an email in my junk folder from the NHS telling me they've cancelled my second jab. Not that they've rebooked it or anything, just cancelled full stop. 😲😡🤬

If I hadn't spotted the email in junk, I would have had no indication, probably waited until the 7th, maybe had to rebook if I found it later in the week and ended up with an even later booking. Ended up rapidly trying to rebook last night to save a massive whole 2 days,  now getting jabbed on 4th instead. Don't really see much advantage......


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## Tashyboy (May 30, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I remember Homer posting how he was really struggling. Unfortunately, someone chose to give him a less than supportive response. Probably the straw that broke the proverbial.
		
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He was really going through a tough time with the Covid and work etc. He came on here for some release, battery recharge and got the exact opposite. So he lightened the load. Unfortunately he is one of a few who has disappeared.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			I remember Homer posting how he was really struggling. Unfortunately, someone chose to give him a less than supportive response. Probably the straw that broke the proverbial.
		
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https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/the-mental-health-thread.106037/page-4

This was the post where he said he was struggling - unless there are some posts that have been removed there was a lot of positive reaction to him. He is still positing regularly on the GM Facebook Clubhouse 🤷‍♂️


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## Ethan (May 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			So I have had AZ, someone else has Pfizer or a n other. Would one booster be ok for all of the different vaccines or would a AZ booster have to accompany an AZ vaccine. Sorry if it has been asked but what’s your thoughts.
Cheers me man.
		
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It is very unlikely there would be a problem with mix and match even between the first 2 doses, the vaccines would never actually mix as they only stay in the body for max 48 hours. There are some immunologists who would argue there are benefits from mixing, sort of like cross-training the immune system. 

The boosters will not be aligned to original vaccines, and Novavax and Valneva vaccines, which nobody will get in their first round, look like they are being lined up for boosters for most people.


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## Tashyboy (May 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is very unlikely there would be a problem with mix and match even between the first 2 doses, the vaccines would never actually mix as they only stay in the body for max 48 hours. There are some immunologists who would argue there are benefits from mixing, sort of like cross-training the immune system.

The boosters will not be aligned to original vaccines, and Novavax and Valneva vaccines, which nobody will get in their first round, look like they are being lined up for boosters for most people.
		
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 Cheers me man.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 31, 2021)

Thread reopened
All yesterdays posts relating to whether the "Indian" strain of the virus is linked to specific communities have been binned.

Some posters attempted to make rational and reasonable arguements, others just played the race card, the upshot of which is that the debate was stiffled.

I do not want any further comments regarding last night, if you dont like how ive played it, then report it to @Mknott

Reminder the thread title is:-

*Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?*

It is not a platform for political observations or comment


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## GB72 (May 31, 2021)

I know it's a bank holiday but one covid death today in Scotland. None in the rest of the UK


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## Crazyface (May 31, 2021)

MY grandson (19) has now got it. No symptoms. He's currently over in Chester with his GF who is at Uni there. So is now having to stay over there for 10 days to self isolate. Luckilly we've not seen him for 14 days so are well in the clear and his mum and dad have taken a lateral flow test and are clear. So we're still ok. Phew!


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## Slab (May 31, 2021)

Guys when you get a covid vaccine do they take the opportunity to also test for the virus? 

Not had mine yet and not sure if its done here so just wondered about the UK


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## Fade and Die (May 31, 2021)

Slab said:



			Guys when you get a covid vaccine do they take the opportunity to also test for the virus?

Not had mine yet and not sure if its done here so just wondered about the UK
		
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No it’s in, take a few details, get jabbed then out. Or sit in the chairs for 15 mins. All very efficient.👍


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## PhilTheFragger (May 31, 2021)

Slab said:



			Guys when you get a covid vaccine do they take the opportunity to also test for the virus?

Not had mine yet and not sure if its done here so just wondered about the UK
		
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No they ask you if you have any symptoms  also ask if you have had a recent test 

Test kits are very widely available here, so hopefully most people are self testing at least weekly, I know my employers are insisting on it


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57304515

I think it’s looking more likely that come 21st June we won’t be removing all the restrictions


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## Fade and Die (May 31, 2021)

See Twickenham stadium (London borough of Hounslow) has been opened up today trying to do 15,000 jabs a day, open to anyone over 18!....amazing work👍


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## SaintHacker (May 31, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57304515

I think it’s looking more likely that come 21st June we won’t be removing all the restrictions
		
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Who knows? Theres scaremongering on both sides. 'Experts' are saying cases are exponentially rising but for the past twondays they've been down, despite all the extra surge testing and home tests etc, and they've said all along there will be an increase as we open up, so its not unexpected. Hospitalisation doesnt appear to be increasing and that is the main test for reducing restrictions, fingers crossed it stays that way.


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## Ethan (May 31, 2021)

Slab said:



			Guys when you get a covid vaccine do they take the opportunity to also test for the virus?

Not had mine yet and not sure if its done here so just wondered about the UK
		
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They may be using the vaccination appointment to get some epidemiological data. Also helps understand infection rates and vaccination responses in the vaccinated in the few weeks after vaccination.


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## Ethan (May 31, 2021)

So who here will agree to their teenagers being vacc'd if a vaccine is approved for 12-15 year olds? Pfizer has been approved for that age group in the US and it will likely get the same approval here.


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## IainP (May 31, 2021)

Slab said:



			Guys when you get a covid vaccine do they take the opportunity to also test for the virus?

Not had mine yet and not sure if its done here so just wondered about the UK
		
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1st one was just the questions, 2nd one was shot with the thermometer gun as well as the questions


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## IainP (May 31, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Who knows? Theres scaremongering on both sides. 'Experts' are saying cases are exponentially rising but for the past twondays they've been down, despite all the extra surge testing and home tests etc, and they've said all along there will be an increase as we open up, so its not unexpected. Hospitalisation doesnt appear to be increasing and that is the main test for reducing restrictions, fingers crossed it stays that way.
		
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Yep, decision day is the 14th of June. Anything before then is guesswork


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## Lord Tyrion (May 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			So who here will agree to their teenagers being vacc'd if a vaccine is approved for 12-15 year olds? Pfizer has been approved for that age group in the US and it will likely get the same approval here.
		
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Slightly older but my kids at 19 and 21 have both said they will have it as soon as they are eligible. 

It's a tougher decision for younger kids as they are largely untouched by covid. They obviously catch it and pass it on but the effect on them is negligible. I'm pleased mine are passed that group as it isn't a straightforward decision.


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## Jimaroid (May 31, 2021)

2nd AZ for me yesterday and woke up with a horrendous headache, had breakfast, felt worse, went back to bed and have stayed in it all day.

Slightly different to the first one which wiped me out within 24 hours with flu-like symptoms.


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## Ethan (May 31, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Slightly older but my kids at 19 and 21 have both said they will have it as soon as they are eligible.

It's a tougher decision for younger kids as they are largely untouched by covid. They obviously catch it and pass it on but the effect on them is negligible. I'm pleased mine are passed that group as it isn't a straightforward decision.
		
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Mine are 11 and 13, and the 13-year old has said he wants the vax. i think it is a tricky one because it is as much about risk to others from Covid as risk to self. He recently had the HPV vax, which is even more about benefit to others. 

There are some kids who have had a bad course with Covid but it is rather unlikely. Still, I am confident in the vax, and if kids are offered any, it will be one of the mRNAs, which I think are very safe.


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## SaintHacker (May 31, 2021)

Agreed, my youngest are 13 and 16, and whilst i wouldn't insist they had it I will encourage them to as we have vulnerable, although fully vaccinated, people in our immediate family


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2021)

Hopefully anti-vax parents won’t be too much of an issue in those twelve and younger, if I’m right about that being the age for informed consent.


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## road2ruin (May 31, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Hopefully anti-vax parents won’t be too much of an issue in those twelve and younger, if I’m right about that being the age for informed consent.
		
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Can you not be against your young child having the Covid vaccine without being accused of being an anti-vaxxer? My daughter is almost 7, I am not entirely sure that I would have her vaccinated despite her having everything else needed so I’m certainly not an anti-vaxxer.


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Can you not be against your young child having the Covid vaccine without being accused of being an anti-vaxxer? My daughter is almost 7, I am not entirely sure that I would have her vaccinated despite her having everything else needed so I’m certainly not an anti-vaxxer.
		
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 So you’re against her having the vaccine but you’re not anti-vaccine? Seems a bit contradictory to me.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			So you’re against her having the vaccine but you’re not anti-vaccine? Seems a bit contradictory to me.
		
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Or maybe he would rather wait until the vaccine is fully cleared for young children who currently are in the very lowest risk group. The vaccine is still not approved for children


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## Kellfire (May 31, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or maybe he would rather wait until the vaccine is fully cleared for young children who currently are in the very lowest risk group. The vaccine is still not approved for children
		
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That’s a moot point as no one is saying to give children an unapproved vaccine - it’s a given that we’re talking about a legally given dose.


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## road2ruin (May 31, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			So you’re against her having the vaccine but you’re not anti-vaccine? Seems a bit contradictory to me.
		
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I disagree. She’s had every vaccine for things that would cause her serious harm if she caught them. Covid is low risk to her age group so I am yet to be convinced that she would benefit from it. Even if a vaccine was approved for her age group I would still need to give it thought. That doesn’t make me an anti-vaxxer though.


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## Ethan (May 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Can you not be against your young child having the Covid vaccine without being accused of being an anti-vaxxer? My daughter is almost 7, I am not entirely sure that I would have her vaccinated despite her having everything else needed so I’m certainly not an anti-vaxxer.
		
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I read his post as commenting on parents who were already anti-vax rather than saying that not wanting your kids to have it meant you were anti-vax.

The benefit-risk calculations are different for kids and it is a legitimate position to decide not to go for it for the kids. It won't be approved for age 7 anytime soon, if ever.


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## theoneandonly (May 31, 2021)

Henceforth the Indian variant shall be known as the Delta variant.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 1, 2021)

Covid irritation - the rather large woman on one of those terrible daytime ITV shows claiming she is worried about having a vaccination because of the miniscule health risk.   Outside of scaremongering the more gullible viewers, she's not that worried about being about 10 stone overweight for her own health then ....


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## Ethan (Jun 1, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Covid irritation - the rather large woman on one of those terrible daytime ITV shows claiming she is worried about having a vaccination because of the miniscule health risk.   Outside of scaremongering the more gullible viewers, she's not that worried about being about 10 stone overweight for her own health then ....
		
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Public perception of risk is sometimes very unbalanced. People sometimes overvalue unfamiliar risks and massively undervalue familiar ones. I haven't seen this particular Covidiot, but based on your description she need the vax more than most, because if she gets Covid, she will do a lot worse than someone of a healthy weight. She should be pushing her way through the queue like they are running out of sausage rolls at Greggs.


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## RichA (Jun 1, 2021)

Niece works in TV production, mostly on "reality" and documentary stuff. They don't pick their contestants and subjects because they think they'll be good at baking, sewing, dancing, survival or represent the viewing public particularly well.
They pick the ones who will provide the most entertainment as they crash out. I suspect that terrible daytime TV makers apply similar or even more cynical criteria.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 1, 2021)

I think we should have a daytime TV show featuring some of the people on here called "Loose Men" where we make a ton of sexist comments and say stupid inane stuff to try and get ratings.   And make sure we get a producer more lenient than Fragger too!


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## larmen (Jun 1, 2021)

RichA said:



			Niece works in TV production, mostly on "reality" and documentary stuff. They don't pick their contestants and subjects because they think they'll be good at baking, sewing, dancing, survival or represent the viewing public particularly well.
They pick the ones who will provide the most entertainment as they crash out. I suspect that terrible daytime TV makers apply similar or even more cynical criteria.
		
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Comedian Simon Brodkin (Lee Nelson) generated a character without any talent but ticking all the boxes, nearly made it onto the live shows for BGT but somebody recognised him at the very last hurdle.

One would have thought that with thousands of contestants they could find 20 talented ones a d make the shows good, but that’s obviously not the target. They make more money out of us being angry that Jetward, Wagner, ... are still in there.


In other corona news, I did my 1st ever test last week. That must be the most disgusting thing I have ever done. They were close to get a food sample on top of what they needed.
I am part of some study where I have to fill out a form every week for a year now, and last week came with a test kit for the antibody test.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2021)

larmen said:



			Comedian Simon Brodkin (Lee Nelson) generated a character without any talent but ticking all the boxes, nearly made it onto the live shows for BGT but somebody recognised him at the very last hurdle.

One would have thought that with thousands of contestants they could find 20 talented ones a d make the shows good, but that’s obviously not the target. They make more money out of us being angry that Jetward, Wagner, ... are still in there.


In other corona news, I did my 1st ever test last week. That must be the most disgusting thing I have ever done. They were close to get a food sample on top of what they needed.
I am part of some study where I have to fill out a form every week for a year now, and last week came with a test kit for the antibody test.
		
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You notice that the popularity of shows like X-Factor has plummeted since they stopped the practice of focusing on the poor entries in the fist few weeks and playing them for laughs (the bringing them back for another dig in the final). Even Simon Cowell was quoted as saying that the problem with X-Factor is that the best shows are at the beginning. Hence they would bring through a joke act to keep that cringe factor going for as long as possible before it turned into a fairly bland, boring karaoake contest.


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2021)

Worrying number of rugby matches being postponed due to covid. Not sure whether that is due to fans being allowed, overall relaxations or what but it has been a number of weeks since one has been canceled and now we have Ulster, Saracens and Gloucester matches postponed and Edinburgh suspending training.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2021)

Just back home from getting jag#2.  I guess that that’s me as sorted as I can be for the time being...well in two weeks I will.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just back home from getting jag#2.  I guess that that’s me as sorted as I can be for the time being...well in two weeks I will.
		
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Do you have a fault on your keyboard with 'B'  &  'G'


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## AmandaJR (Jun 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Public perception of risk is sometimes very unbalanced. People sometimes overvalue unfamiliar risks and massively undervalue familiar ones. I haven't seen this particular Covidiot, but based on your description she need the vax more than most, because if she gets Covid, she will do a lot worse than someone of a healthy weight. *She should be pushing her way through the queue like they are running out of sausage rolls at Greggs.*

Click to expand...


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## Fade and Die (Jun 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Just back home from getting jag#2.*  I guess that that’s me as sorted as I can be for the time being...well in two weeks I will.
		
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Nice one Prescott.😁


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## GB72 (Jun 1, 2021)

I know it is after a bank holiday but ZERO covid deaths in the UK today. Been a while since that was last the case.


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## Crazyface (Jun 1, 2021)

Update from me. Son has NHS as pp and has been told to isolate. Son's wife works in care, told not to come in and isolate. Youngest grandsons half term shot to pieces. We're still ok as we've not been in direct contact. Would suit me to stay off actually. Sick of the Muppets at work.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have a fault on your keyboard with 'B'  &  'G'
		
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It’s a Scottish thing, maybe it’s not the Scottish who have problems with B and G.😉


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a Scottish thing, maybe it’s not the Scottish who have problems with B and G.😉
		
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Lost me there Hogie.  You keep saying you've had a 'Jag'. Why?


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## ger147 (Jun 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Lost me there Hogie.  You keep saying you've had a 'Jag'. Why?
		
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That's what an injection is called in Scotland i.e. a jag, NOT a jab.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Jun 1, 2021)

ger147 said:



			That's what an injection is called in Scotland i.e. a jag, NOT a jab.
		
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Maybe because it rhymes with skag?


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## bobmac (Jun 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a Scottish thing, maybe it’s not the Scottish who have problems with B and G.😉
		
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That will make you Hogie 2 jags


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2021)

2nd jag - as first - virtually painless as the first was - and there was me thinking beforehand that I had a needle phobia and always put that up as reason for not getting flu jag - as I still never have.  But I no longer have any qualms about having it.

I don’t really know where my ‘phobia’ it came from, maybe from many years ago when I had a load of injections in my gums when having some quite significant dental surgery...I could see the needles before they went into the gum...😳

But to anyone not having the vaccination due to needle phobia I can provide reassurance...it’s literally hardly even a pin prick.  And I have had no side effects whatsoever, very slight ache in arm where vaccination provided - nothing more than that.


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## GB72 (Jun 2, 2021)

Probably a question for Ethan here. I have my second jab due in a couple of weeks. There are appointments to bring it forward if I want. Bearing in mind I am currently living a pretty low risk existance (going to a small office in a market town, heading home to a small village and not really going anywhere else) am I going to get a potentially greater benefit from holding on for the full 12 weeks and being careful rather than getting my second jab after 10 weeks.


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## Ethan (Jun 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Probably a question for Ethan here. I have my second jab due in a couple of weeks. There are appointments to bring it forward if I want. Bearing in mind I am currently living a pretty low risk existance (going to a small office in a market town, heading home to a small village and not really going anywhere else) am I going to get a potentially greater benefit from holding on for the full 12 weeks and being careful rather than getting my second jab after 10 weeks.
		
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There is a modest benefit from delaying from 3 to 12, but it isn't a whole lot, and it has been a bit overplayed to justify a logistical benefit to the overall programme. The difference between 10 and 12 weeks is probably tiny, and if it was me, I would go ahead and get my second asap. I think I got a text message for my second just before 10 weeks after the first and booked it right away for the soonest possible date.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Probably a question for Ethan here. I have my second jab due in a couple of weeks. There are appointments to bring it forward if I want. Bearing in mind I am currently living a pretty low risk existance (going to a small office in a market town, heading home to a small village and not really going anywhere else) am I going to get a potentially greater benefit from holding on for the full 12 weeks and being careful rather than getting my second jab after 10 weeks.
		
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Whilst waiting for Ethan to reply: initial advice was about 8 weeks from memory. We stretched to 12 weeks to get as many jabbed as possible as quickly as possible. Some protection better than no protection. The rest of Europe is jabbing around the 8 week mark based on chats with my customers so that doesn't suggest waiting is better. Get your second jab sooner rather than later.

Edit: he beat me to it


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## GB72 (Jun 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is a modest benefit from delaying from 3 to 12, but it isn't a whole lot, and it has been a bit overplayed to justify a logistical benefit to the overall programme. The difference between 10 and 12 weeks is probably tiny, and if it was me, I would go ahead and get my second asap. I think I got a text message for my second just before 10 weeks after the first and booked it right away for the soonest possible date.
		
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I was given my second jab appointment when I went for my first one but now have the option to book as early as this weekend so I will get booking.


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## jim8flog (Jun 2, 2021)

I had my first real world test at the weekend.

Up to visit my son and his family. Family morning out at the ten pin bowling alley. 

Not great social distancing and it was only pointed out to us that we should only be using the plain balls (patterned ones for the other lane) after the people in the next lane had gone.  Bit difficult really with lots of young children around.  Also the bowl chute for the children was shared between the two lanes. Place was totally rammed and it looked like all the arcade machines had no means of cleaning them with different players using them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2021)

Baldy Bouncer said:



			Maybe because it rhymes with skag?

Click to expand...

For ‘jag’ see also nickname for Patrick Thistle; description of the nature of plants/shrubs such as thistles and gorse; and of course yer heid also referred to as yer jaggy bunnet.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2021)

Infection daily rate up by an additional thousand, deaths up, hospital admissions up.   Happy days.


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## need_my_wedge (Jun 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Infection daily rate up by an additional thousand, deaths up, hospital admissions up.   Happy days.
		
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Hopefully that's just the overflow from the bank holiday catching up.


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## D-S (Jun 2, 2021)

Really hope the government don’t take all the brakes off on 21st June just to prove that they are sticking to their timetable. A lot of the proposed relaxations won’t affect the way the vast majority live. 
if the science says a small delay is sensible and a gradual easing rather than the Big Bang is a more prudent way let’s just do it like that. 
Let’s sort this once and for all and when the vast majority are double jabbed then we can really get back to normal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2021)

D-S said:



			Really hope the government don’t take all the brakes off on 21st June just to prove that they are sticking to their timetable. A lot of the proposed relaxations won’t affect the way the vast majority live.
if the science says a small delay is sensible and a gradual easing rather than the Big Bang is a more prudent way let’s just do it like that.
Let’s sort this once and for all and when the vast majority are double jabbed then we can really get back to normal.
		
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It’s political and won’t comment too much other than to say that I can’t see Johnson not doing the 21st...as much as he might caution at the moment and almost no matter what the data says.  It’s just too political.

I certainly hope that it’s the 21st as a delay of any significance will impact me directly, but I’d rather that relaxing of restrictions is not at any cost.


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## road2ruin (Jun 3, 2021)

D-S said:



			Let’s sort this once and for all and when the vast majority are double jabbed then we can really get back to normal.
		
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I’m not in favour of a delay however if there is to be one it should be only be until the point that all over 50’s and those who are vulnerable have been offered their second jab. These account for 99% of deaths and the present plan is that they will have all been double jabbed by the 21st. Assuming that’s successful then add a week if it’s really necessary but then everything should be opened.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 3, 2021)

Option 1 -   21st June easing remains in place -  usual suspects in the media/politics etc immediately criticize decision.
Option 2 -  21st June easing delayed -  same usual suspects in the media/politics change their opinion and immediately criticize decision.

Sad state of affairs really.


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2021)

I am in favour of an intermediary step. At the moment we are as far down the route of opening everything up as we got last year. Everything after this is untested. I can see the benefit of another period where you can have, lets say, groups of 12 indoors, up to 60 outside, maybe remove compulsory table service in pubs etc. That would allow most people to live a pretty normal life whilst giving a bit more time for data collection before the final relaxation of everything.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m not in favour of a delay however if there is to be one it should be only be until the point that all over 50’s and those who are vulnerable have been offered their second jab. These account for 99% of deaths and the present plan is that they will have all been double jabbed by the 21st. Assuming that’s successful then add a week if it’s really necessary but then everything should be opened.
		
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We shoud just encourage those that haven't had their second jab and the vulnerable to take precautions and let the rest of us crack on?


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## road2ruin (Jun 3, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We shoud just encourage those that haven't had their second jab and the vulnerable to take precautions and let the rest of us crack on?
		
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If you are amongst the aged/vulnerable groups and have made a decision not to have the jab then that’s your decision however that should not stop the rest of society opening up.

If all others in those categories have had the opportunity by 21st June which is the plan then I see so reason why anything should be particularly delayed.


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## bobmac (Jun 3, 2021)

What's the latest on the covid passport, is it going to happen?
The sooner the better I'd say.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What's the latest on the covid passport, is it going to happen?
The sooner the better I'd say.
		
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Depends on what you read

Looks like the EU countries are looking to have something in place for travellers coming into their various countries

There will be UK venues that require it - stadiums etc

But don’t see anything in regards entry into the UK requiring one

I have a feeling that the UK would be too worried about applying it


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Depends on what you read

Looks like the EU countries are looking to have something in place for travellers coming into their various countries

There will be UK venues that require it - stadiums etc

But don’t see anything in regards entry into the UK requiring one

I have a feeling that the UK would be too worried about applying it
		
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Why?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Why?
		
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Worried about infringement of freedoms. It touches upon being authoritarian.

I'm not saying I agree, just giving an explanation as I have heard it so far.


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## D-S (Jun 3, 2021)

Well I am certainly not going to be going abroad until a vaccine passport does away with the need for pre travel and in country testing. 
Apart from the cost and sheer hassle, the risk of someone in the group testing positive before flying and not being able to get on the flight and the loss of both holiday and money and the same stress over someone testing positive prior to returning would render a supposedly relaxing time into a lot of stress. Green list or no green list, travel will not open properly until people can use the QR code on their NHS App to dodge the testing regime.


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## IanM (Jun 3, 2021)

I agree... overseas travel is currently too much hassle.  I would also prefer to spend my holiday cash in Cornwall, West Wales or the Lakes etc to support businesses there!   

2nd jab on Monday...  no howling at the moon yet!  But a worrying addiction to Jacobs Mini-Cheddars, Red Leicester flavour.  Not sure if there's a connection!


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## drdel (Jun 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Worried about infringement of freedoms. It touches upon being authoritarian.

I'm not saying I agree, just giving an explanation as I have heard it so far.
		
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I'll bet most people carry some form of ID for work, and the NHS App  shows vaccination status so I personally see no real infringements.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 3, 2021)

drdel said:



			I'll bet most people carry some form of ID for work, and the NHS App  shows vaccination status so I personally see no real infringements.
		
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The infringement relates to people who do not want to have the vaccine, and possibly those who can not, although I would expect the govt to have something up their sleeve for that group as that is not a choice they have made. Should people have to have a vaccine before being allowed into a pub, restaurant, shop, cinema etc? It is a civil liberties question. 

Those who have had both jabs I suspect would be happy to wave the proof around, the issue isn't with that group.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 3, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The infringement relates to people who do not want to have the vaccine, and possibly those who can not, although I would expect the govt to have something up their sleeve for that group as that is not a choice they have made. Should people have to have a vaccine before being allowed into a pub, restaurant, shop, cinema etc? It is a civil liberties question.

Those who have had both jabs I suspect would be happy to wave the proof around, the issue isn't with that group.
		
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As I understood it, the vaccine passport will allow people to show that they have had both jabs, have recently had a negative test or have antibodies from recently recovering from Covid. It doesn't just have to be vaccination that allows access to locations or for travel.


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			As I understood it, the vaccine passport will allow people to show that they have had both jabs, have recently had a negative test or have antibodies from recently recovering from Covid. It doesn't just have to be vaccination that allows access to locations or for travel.
		
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Sadly there is a vocal minority that do not think they should have to do any of these things, nor social distance, not wear a mask.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 3, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Sadly there is a vocal minority that do not think they should have to do any of these things, nor social distance, not wear a mask.
		
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Correct, and they should be told in no uncertain terms that they cannot be " as free as" those who have been responsible enough to be protected.
No passport - no access.
When they play the civil liberties card, they should be told to shut up and suck up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 3, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			As I understood it, the vaccine passport will allow people to show that they have had both jabs, have recently had a negative test or have antibodies from recently recovering from Covid. It doesn't just have to be vaccination that allows access to locations or for travel.
		
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Sounds right. I have the NHS app, it shows my jabs, date of them, type, batch number. It also has it in the form of a QR code. It is basically ready to go. I guess the politicians are now working out whether this will be required to be shown and if so where.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 3, 2021)

Portugal to go on the amber list, nowhere added to green


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## Reemul (Jun 3, 2021)

I think we need 2 weeks from when everyone over 50 has had the jab. It takes 2 weeks to get up to full speed. once we know everyone over 50 or all those at risk has been offered the jab and had a chance to attend their appointment or chosen not too we need to add 2 weeks from then and crack on with it.


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## GB72 (Jun 3, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Portugal to go on the amber list, nowhere added to green

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Shortly followed by the stories of how hard done by those out in Portugal at the moment feel that they have to dash back or quarantine. If you were not aware of the risks of foreign holidays by now then more fool you.


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## D-S (Jun 3, 2021)

Quote from the BBC re Portugal being added to the amber list “It's really terrible news for many people” - terrible news really? Predictable yes, likely yes, unfortunate yes - probably a relief to many as it at least takes the uncertainty away.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 3, 2021)

Ha so Portugal being added to amber list 

Almost like foreign travel was a stupid idea to start with


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## larmen (Jun 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ha so Portugal being added to amber list

Almost like foreign travel was a stupid idea to start with
		
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But you can travel during big sports events, for example a CL final.
Japan to be green next month?

We have holidays booked in Denmark later this year which had better numbers than Portugal when we last looked. It’s meeting the in-laws who travel up from Germany, not sure if amber is a bad thing or not ;-)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 3, 2021)

This isn’t a dig at teachers, it’s a genuine question for those who can ask it please.

We have heard lots in the press about kids missing so much in the last year and different methods/ideas on how they plan to give the kids the support to catch up.

So, in my role as JLO we had Junior Coaching tonight and a few kids were missing due to half term (normal) but then I’ve learnt the kids have got a fortnight off!

Half term was only ever 1 week as far as I can remember, so why at this critical time have they been given 2 weeks?

Is this Country wide or just the NE.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			This isn’t a dig at teachers, it’s a genuine question for those who can ask it please.

We have heard lots in the press about kids missing so much in the last year and different methods/ideas on how they plan to give the kids the support to catch up.

So, in my role as JLO we had Junior Coaching tonight and a few kids were missing due to half term (normal) but then I’ve learnt the kids have got a fortnight off!

Half term was only ever 1 week as far as I can remember, so why at this critical time have they been given 2 weeks?

Is this Country wide or just the NE.
		
Click to expand...

.
Round here it's only a week 

It should be only a week, dunno why it would be two

Is it everyone or a private school?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			.
Round here it's only a week

It should be only a week, dunno why it would be two

Is it everyone or a private school?
		
Click to expand...

State schools, some had last week & this week, the rest are getting this week & next week.


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## Ethan (Jun 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			This isn’t a dig at teachers, it’s a genuine question for those who can ask it please.

We have heard lots in the press about kids missing so much in the last year and different methods/ideas on how they plan to give the kids the support to catch up.

So, in my role as JLO we had Junior Coaching tonight and a few kids were missing due to half term (normal) but then I’ve learnt the kids have got a fortnight off!

Half term was only ever 1 week as far as I can remember, so why at this critical time have they been given 2 weeks?

Is this Country wide or just the NE.
		
Click to expand...

Week round here too for my primary and secondary kids. Haven't heard of any schools doing longer.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			State schools, some had last week & this week, the rest are getting this week & next week.
		
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In Scotland they will be on 8 weeks summer holidays come July.


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## SteveW86 (Jun 3, 2021)

My wife is a teacher and her school only has 1 week off for half term (Southampton).

I know it has been discussed previously that they can adjust some of the half/ end of term holidays. Same amount of time off in total, but just at different time.....that could be something they are trialling.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			This isn’t a dig at teachers, it’s a genuine question for those who can ask it please.

We have heard lots in the press about kids missing so much in the last year and different methods/ideas on how they plan to give the kids the support to catch up.

So, in my role as JLO we had Junior Coaching tonight and a few kids were missing due to half term (normal) but then I’ve learnt the kids have got a fortnight off!

Half term was only ever 1 week as far as I can remember, so why at this critical time have they been given 2 weeks?

Is this Country wide or just the NE.
		
Click to expand...

Only ones I know round this way that have two week half terms are private schools, state schools are only 1 week in my experience.


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## larmen (Jun 3, 2021)

We got a week plus an inset day the Friday before. Gave us a head start into the bank holiday weekend.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			This isn’t a dig at teachers, it’s a genuine question for those who can ask it please.

We have heard lots in the press about kids missing so much in the last year and different methods/ideas on how they plan to give the kids the support to catch up.

So, in my role as JLO we had Junior Coaching tonight and a few kids were missing due to half term (normal) but then I’ve learnt the kids have got a fortnight off!

Half term was only ever 1 week as far as I can remember, so why at this critical time have they been given 2 weeks?

Is this Country wide or just the NE.
		
Click to expand...

Schools can decide for themselves how they use their holidays. Some have 1 week around this time, others have 2. It's a misconception that dates are set and rigid. It's up to each school how they spread their holiday weeks. Even more so now most are academies and so effectively independent of local authority control.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			This isn’t a dig at teachers, it’s a genuine question for those who can ask it please.

We have heard lots in the press about kids missing so much in the last year and different methods/ideas on how they plan to give the kids the support to catch up.

So, in my role as JLO we had Junior Coaching tonight and a few kids were missing due to half term (normal) but then I’ve learnt the kids have got a fortnight off!

Half term was only ever 1 week as far as I can remember, so why at this critical time have they been given 2 weeks?

Is this Country wide or just the NE.
		
Click to expand...




Lord Tyrion said:



			Schools can decide for themselves how they use their holidays. Some have 1 week around this time, others have 2. It's a misconception that dates are set and rigid. It's up to each school how they spread their holiday weeks. Even more so now most are academies and so effectively independent of local authority control

Am not quite sure what’s what for next year but am sure school holidays are changing even more from what they were.Summer holidays are being cut to four or five weeks, with the October half term extending to 2 weeks in Notts.
		
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## bobmac (Jun 4, 2021)

Less holidays = more time in the class room
More time in the class room = more time to teach/learn the syllabus 
More time to teach/learn the syllabus = less stress on the teachers and pupils
Less stress on the teachers and pupils = less need for long holidays.


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## jim8flog (Jun 4, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			In Scotland they will be on 8 weeks summer holidays come July.
		
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wow they have 8 weeks of summer in Scotland. I never knew that!!


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## GreiginFife (Jun 4, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			wow they have 8 weeks of summer in Scotland. I never knew that!!
		
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We don't even get 8 days of summer in Scotland!

Like many areas the holidays are determined by local authority and few are the same. In Fife, they get 6 weeks in summer (used to be 7 but one week was appropriated to Easter to give them 2 weeks (so 2 weeks in October, 2 at Christmas and 2 at Easter as oppose to 2, 2, 1 as it used to be)). 

Not sure there are many areas get as much as 8 weeks as the term times need to balance out to the national curriculum which is the same for all (I believe), so 8 weeks in summer would mean only 1 week two of the other term breaks. Fife has no half term weeks off, just a couple of days here and there.


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## RichA (Jun 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Less holidays = more time in the class room
More time in the class room = more time to teach/learn the syllabus 
More time to teach/learn the syllabus = less stress on the teachers and pupils
Less stress on the teachers and pupils = less need for long holidays.
		
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In reality, it's complicated and for many (not all) teachers, the holidays aren't the same as most of us consider time off work.
Mrs A and her colleagues need the holidays to catch up and learn the new stuff they have to teach the following term as the syllabus evolves. She's on the arts side, but part of a technology faculty. As a result, she's teaching 15 year olds about maths and mechanics that that she herself quit when she was their age. Essentially, she's using the holidays to teach herself how to teach a subject that she doesn't know to GCSE level.

I'm not preaching, by the way. The school holidays do my head in.


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## Kellfire (Jun 4, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			wow they have 8 weeks of summer in Scotland. I never knew that!!
		
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And Northern Ireland. Usually got all of July and August off. Lovely.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			We don't even get 8 days of summer in Scotland!
		
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I like BillyCs observation...Scotland has two seasons..June and Winter.

I might add a 3rd...Midgie season.  So June, Midgie and Winter..


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## Ethan (Jun 4, 2021)

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-medicines-regulator-approves-pfizer-jab-for-12-to-15-year-olds


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## Lump (Jun 4, 2021)

1st Jab today. 34yr old and got the Moderna.


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## Italian outcast (Jun 4, 2021)

Got vaccinated today in France - J&J 
Could have been a perfect storm
French pharmacy - Italian pharmacists - dumb Scottish guy 
Went uber smoothly


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2021)

RichA said:



			In reality, it's complicated and for many (not all) teachers, the holidays aren't the same as most of us consider time off work.
Mrs A and her colleagues need the holidays to catch up and learn the new stuff they have to teach the following term as the syllabus evolves. She's on the arts side, but part of a technology faculty. As a result, she's teaching 15 year olds about maths and mechanics that that she herself quit when she was their age. Essentially, she's using the holidays to teach herself how to teach a subject that she doesn't know to GCSE level.

I'm not preaching, by the way. The school holidays do my head in.
		
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Rather begs the question why someone who is not qualified in the subjects are teaching them.


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## Foxholer (Jun 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			Rather begs the question why someone who is not qualified in the subjects are teaching them.
		
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Normal reason is that they can't get someone who IS qualified in the subject(s) to teach them!
Still, far from ideal, but as a stop-gap...? They are, after all, qualified (one would hope) in Teaching, unlike some of my old University lecturers!


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## RichA (Jun 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			Rather begs the question why someone who is not qualified in the subjects are teaching them.
		
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A qualified teacher is a qualified teacher. Theoretically, you can teach a subject you have no specific qualification in, although I can't imagine you'd get the job if you applied for it. 
In Mrs A's case, she is having to teach elements of physics and maths due to their applications within her technology subject. Even though the technology subject in which she is a specialist is art textiles.


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Normal reason is that they can't get someone who IS qualified in the subject(s) to teach them!
Still, far from ideal, but as a stop-gap...? They are, after all, qualified (one would hope) in Teaching, unlike some of my old University lecturers!
		
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You're right; for 20yrs I ran a University Department, coming from the business sector it was like herding cats. The bickering and backstabbing exceeded anything we get on this forum by miles.

No one was allowed to teach a subject they were not qualified in to at least an equivalent academic level: normally 1 above. However you are right some where academically bright but just couldn't teach and yet arrogant enough to blame their students. Today the PC brigade has taken over and their self-righteousness is a whole new level of arrogance (actually IMO ignorance). I'm glad to gave gone back to the business world and retired fat dumb and happy (rant over!)


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## Ethan (Jun 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			You're right; for 20yrs I ran a University Department, coming from the business sector it was like herding cats. The bickering and backstabbing exceeded anything we get on this forum by miles.

No one was allowed to teach a subject they were not qualified in to at least an equivalent academic level: normally 1 above. However you are right some where academically bright but just couldn't teach and yet arrogant enough to blame their students. Today the PC brigade has taken over and their self-righteousness is a whole new level of arrogance (actually IMO ignorance). I'm glad to gave gone back to the business world and retired fat dumb and happy (rant over!)
		
Click to expand...

Who are you and what have you done with the Dr Del who often complains when people are not commenting on their personal experience of coronavirus?


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Who are you and what have you done with the Dr Del who often complains when people are not commenting on their personal experience of coronavirus?
		
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Mea culpa


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2021)

I believe the uptake of Corona Virus vaccinations amongst Teachers and Lecturers is very high, maybe it's because they have so much holiday time on their hands to consider it 😁


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2021)

6k Infections today.  What a bag of spanners this is becoming.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 4, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			6k Infections today.  What a bag of spanners this is becoming.
		
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Yes but we are going to have to live with this bug ongoing, so the number of cases in itself is irrelevant.

What is relevant is how many of those are unvaccinated and how many result in hospital admission and the impact on ITU admissions and ultimately deaths.

So we need more info


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## Billysboots (Jun 4, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes but we are going to have to live with this bug ongoing, so the number of cases in itself is irrelevant.

What is relevant is how many of those are unvaccinated and how many result in hospital admission and the impact on ITU admissions and ultimately deaths.

So we need more info
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree.

To someone who knows zip about infectious disease and immunology, it appears to me that we are entering a new phase of the pandemic, in the U.K. at least. 

If deaths and hospitalisations remain flat whilst infections creep up, and remain so for several weeks when they haven’t done during previous waves, then this says to me that vaccines are doing their job - preventing serious disease and death.

I hope my uneducated guess is somewhere near accurate otherwise this mess will just continue indefinitely.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yes but we are going to have to live with this bug ongoing, so the number of cases in itself is irrelevant.

What is relevant is how many of those are unvaccinated and how many result in hospital admission and the impact on ITU admissions and ultimately deaths.

So we need more info
		
Click to expand...

Surely we need to get infections under control otherwise the virus stays in large numbers and will create more mutations with possibly more dangerous varients.  It concerns me that if we can't keep on top of it the current vaccinations won't be effective and could we have vaccination programs big enough and often enough to keep on top of this pandemic.

Hopefully I'm overthinking but currently I find it concerning.


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## IainP (Jun 4, 2021)

Whilst it is understandable to be concerned by a rise in cases, it is probably what was expected. Need to keep a close eye on things,  but right now in context of what's going elsewhere ....


Yellow is cases, red is fatalities 



UK is 3rd one down


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely we need to get infections under control otherwise the virus stays in large numbers and will create more mutations with possibly more dangerous varients.  It concerns me that if we can't keep on top of it the current vaccinations won't be effective and could we have vaccination programs big enough and often enough to keep on top of this pandemic.

Hopefully I'm overthinking but currently I find it concerning.
		
Click to expand...

Which is why we need more info

Hopefully the rise in cases is among the unvaccinated, this is to be expected and would continue to be an issue until everyone has been jabbed.

If we see a rise in cases amongst those who have been vaccinated, then that is only a concern if it leads to a marked increase in hospital admissions, ITU admissions and deaths.

The scientists will need to be on the lookout for variants and adjust jabs accordingly, but that is no different from seasonal flu, which in a bad year can take 20000 people and nobody bats an eyelid.

It’s here to stay, so we need to get used to it


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## Ethan (Jun 5, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Which is why we need more info

Hopefully the rise in cases is among the unvaccinated, this is to be expected and would continue to be an issue until everyone has been jabbed.

If we see a rise in cases amongst those who have been vaccinated, then that is only a concern if it leads to a marked increase in hospital admissions, ITU admissions and deaths.

The scientists will need to be on the lookout for variants and adjust jabs accordingly, but that is no different from seasonal flu, which in a bad year can take 20000 people and nobody bats an eyelid.

It’s here to stay, so we need to get used to it
		
Click to expand...

It is not like seasonal flu. Flu is usually an end of life event for the very elderly, and the great majority of the population have built up a pretty good immunity. The population impact is limited.   

Covid risk is not just about deaths. It has a range of effects which will cause problems for years to come in those who have been infected. 

It. Isn’t. Like. Flu.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is not like seasonal flu. Flu is usually an end of life event for the very elderly, and the great majority of the population have built up a pretty good immunity. The population impact is limited.  

Covid risk is not just about deaths. It has a range of effects which will cause problems for years to come in those who have been infected.

It. Isn’t. Like. Flu.
		
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I was referring to how our attitude towards Covid will need to change to more like our attitude to flu is

Regular jabs/ boosters, etc


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## Ethan (Jun 5, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was referring to how our attitude towards Covid will need to change to more like our attitude to flu is

Regular jabs/ boosters, etc
		
Click to expand...

Our attitude to it needs to be very different to flu, starting with stopping casually allowing it to spread because "we have to learn to live with it". That simply means that people no longer care about who is affected, so long as it is not them.


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## road2ruin (Jun 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Our attitude to it needs to be very different to flu, starting with stopping casually allowing it to spread because "we have to learn to live with it". That simply means that people no longer care about who is affected, so long as it is not them.
		
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But wasn’t that the point of vaccinations? That’s now done for all of the most vulnerable and the vast majority of over 50’s yet we’ve still got large sectors of the economy who cannot open fully due to SD restrictions etc. That cannot go on for much longer without those businesses closing for good. I’m not suggesting that it should just go unchecked but surely we’re at a tipping point where we’ve done as much as we can to protect those who need it?


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely we need to get infections under control otherwise the virus stays in large numbers and will create more mutations with possibly more dangerous varients.  It concerns me that if we can't keep on top of it the current vaccinations won't be effective and could we have vaccination programs big enough and often enough to keep on top of this pandemic.

Hopefully I'm overthinking but currently I find it concerning.
		
Click to expand...

Well, as a layman,I might have my thoughts a bit skewift, but I don't think so. Phil has pointed out some very important parameters, and whilst the high positives may seem alarming, it is important not to lose sight of the numbers of serious cases arising together with how many of those are of the unvaccinated.
That is the true measure of the impact of this so called new wave. 
I hate that term. It may be an editors dream term , but it conjures up a virus coming at us like a cloud of mustard gas or something!!
I have already doubted the "variants" alarm argument. What is happening ,where it is happening, would be happening with the first virus,(or any of the other "variants"). The Kent, Brazilian, South African, were all dealt with and controlled by SD and , importantly, the vaccines. So, I think, would this one have been.
Without SD and other measures most of us have practiced, and of course, the vaccines, the original virus would have run as wild as this Variant is now.
OK, so it is "more transmittable " than the original, but , remember, so were the others.
But , to transmit, it still has to have the conditions and opportunities to do so.


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## Ethan (Jun 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But wasn’t that the point of vaccinations? That’s now done for all of the most vulnerable and the vast majority of over 50’s yet we’ve still got large sectors of the economy who cannot open fully due to SD restrictions etc. That cannot go on for much longer without those businesses closing for good. I’m not suggesting that it should just go unchecked but surely we’re at a tipping point where we’ve done as much as we can to protect those who need it?
		
Click to expand...

The strategy of containing Covid is just starting. The community immunity to flu took decades to build, with repeated exposure to different variants, and only the odd exceptional variant causing a crisis. The same community immunity will happen with Covid but we aren't close to being there yet. The idiotic and irresponsible policy of putting irreversible dates in the public mind means that we risk causing thousands more serious illnesses rather than take a couple of extra weeks to dampen down the risk.  This has happened before at least twice, at the very start, most disastrously, and in September.

The economy will not recover properly unless the disease is suppressed. It is not one or the other.

The Delta variant may not be the apocalypse, but the Epsilon or Theta versions, or whichever one is the first that is truly resistant to the vaccines, may be, and we are only encouraging their evolution if we fart around now.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The strategy of containing Covid is just starting. The community immunity to flu took decades to build, with repeated exposure to different variants, and only the odd exceptional variant causing a crisis. The same community immunity will happen with Covid but we aren't close to being there yet. The idiotic and irresponsible policy of putting irreversible dates in the public mind means that we risk causing thousands more serious illnesses rather than take a couple of extra weeks to dampen down the risk.  This has happened before at least twice, at the very start, most disastrously, and in September.

The economy will not recover properly unless the disease is suppressed. It is not one or the other.

*The Delta variant may not be the apocalypse, but the Epsilon or Theta versions, or whichever one is the first that is truly resistant to the vaccines, may be, and we are only encouraging their evolution if we fart around now.*

Click to expand...

This is the bit that don’t scare the life out of me but worries me no end. Am sure the experts feel the same way. When the Kent and India version came along there were concerns at an early stage whether the vaccines would be any good against these variants.
Just thinking on me feet here Ethan. You have mentioned before how the vaccines are different in there make up and how they kick start the bodies immunity. Could there well be a virus that could infect say a AZ vaccinated person but someone who has had Pfizer be protected. Or vice versa. Cheers me man.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 5, 2021)

Why has the Indian Variant now been renamed the Delta? Assuming it is a rename and not another mutation - which changing the name kind of makes it seem like...


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## Slime (Jun 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Why has the Indian Variant now been renamed the Delta? Assuming it is a rename and not another mutation - which changing the name kind of makes it seem like...
		
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It's a rename.
Someone was on the telly this morning suggesting that it must never be referred to as the Indian Variant as that would increase hate crimes against Asian people!
The Kent, South African and Brazillian variants have also been renamed Alpha, Beta and Gamma.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Why has the Indian Variant now been renamed the Delta? Assuming it is a rename and not another mutation - which changing the name kind of makes it seem like...
		
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Not another mutation. The WHO were concerned that the stigma attached to naming a variant after a place or country was creating animosity and potential problems caused by that animosity. 

They decided that the Greek alphabet would be used, so the first ("Kent") variant became Alpha and the latest became Delta. 

I have heard so many idiots blatantly blaming Indians for this 3rd "wave" with little regard for the fact that India is just where the mutation was first detected, not necessarily that it originated there.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 5, 2021)

Slime said:



			Someone was on the telly this morning suggesting that it must never be referred to as the Indian Variant as that would increase hate crimes against Asian people!
		
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Yeah, because we live in a society where some people need an excuse to hate Asian people...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, as a layman,I might have my thoughts a bit skewift, but I don't think so. Phil has pointed out some very important parameters, and whilst the high positives may seem alarming, it is important not to lose sight of the numbers of serious cases arising together with how many of those are of the unvaccinated.
That is the true measure of the impact of this so called new wave. 
I hate that term. It may be an editors dream term , but it conjures up a virus coming at us like a cloud of mustard gas or something!!
I have already doubted the "variants" alarm argument. What is happening ,where it is happening, would be happening with the first virus,(or any of the other "variants"). The Kent, Brazilian, South African, were all dealt with and controlled by SD and , importantly, the vaccines. So, I think, would this one have been.
Without SD and other measures most of us have practiced, and of course, the vaccines, the original virus would have run as wild as this Variant is now.
OK, so it is "more transmittable " than the original, but , remember, so were the others.
But , to transmit, it still has to have the conditions and opportunities to do so.
		
Click to expand...

Surely these conditions are where we get closer to each other again. 

As I said previously, my main concern is that if the virus is not contained we create the conditions for the virus to mutate and it appears to do that very easily where numbers are high. Imagine a new variety that is immune to current vaccines then the logistics of creating a new vaccination and it being available worldwide.  

IMO the current trend with the exponential growth of infections is very concerning.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 5, 2021)

Ah ha I see. I did wonder why the Kent version hadn't had a rename when the world (ok most of Europe) were blaming the UK for the 2nd wave! Makes sense to now be consistent at least.


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## road2ruin (Jun 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The Delta variant may not be the apocalypse, but the Epsilon or Theta versions, or whichever one is the first that is truly resistant to the vaccines, may be, and we are only encouraging their evolution if we fart around now.
		
Click to expand...

But ultimately that’s going to be beyond our control anyway isn’t it? Assuming we have vaccinated every adult who wants the jab by the end of June then that’s all the UK can do to control it out end. Other countries could be months if not years behind so does that mean we stay with the social restrictions we have now until everyone across the world is at the same level?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Yeah, because we live in a society where some people need an excuse to hate Asian people...
		
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If they want to hate them they don't need an excuse.

I understand your point but on the other hand we should not hide behind the call of 'Raceism' if it blinds us from taking the appropriate decisions to protect public health.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But ultimately that’s going to be beyond our control anyway isn’t it? Assuming we have vaccinated every adult who wants the jab by the end of June then that’s all the UK can do to control it out end. Other countries could be months if not years behind so does that mean we stay with the social restrictions we have now until everyone across the world is at the same level?
		
Click to expand...

It may mean that if we have open borders.


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## road2ruin (Jun 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It may mean that if we have open borders.
		
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And with that you’d wave goodbye to large parts of the travel and hospitality industries. How much would the social, economic and health costs of that be?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			And with that you’d wave goodbye to large parts of the travel and hospitality industries. How much would the social, economic and health costs of that be?
		
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If we take the course of least resistance now it may well create the most damage later.

It's a paradox that so many praise the Covid policies of countries like New Zealand and Australia but see it as unacceptable in their own countries.


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## road2ruin (Jun 5, 2021)

But the amount that hospitality is worth to the economy and the amount of jobs it creates (especially in the younger ages), if you destroy them now there won’t be anything worth coming back to. 

Looking longer term I do agree that the end goal is that the entire world needs to have a high % of vaccinations for this to be beat. To this end I honestly think we need to forget the plans of countries vaccinating those under 16/18yrs a s donated all of those vaccines to other countries.


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## Ethan (Jun 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But ultimately that’s going to be beyond our control anyway isn’t it? Assuming we have vaccinated every adult who wants the jab by the end of June then that’s all the UK can do to control it out end. Other countries could be months if not years behind so does that mean we stay with the social restrictions we have now until everyone across the world is at the same level?
		
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Yes, to a certain extent, but keeping levels of Covid down might be needed for a bit longer than planned. It would be a false economy, no pun intended, to prematurely open up, but pay big for it later.


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## chrisd (Jun 5, 2021)

Slime said:



			It's a rename.
Someone was on the telly this morning suggesting that it must never be referred to as the Indian Variant as that would increase hate crimes against Asian people!
The Kent, South African and Brazillian variants have also been renamed Alpha, Beta and Gamma.
		
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I reckon the Kent variant should be renamed  "The foreign truck drivers and rubber boat migrant variant"


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 5, 2021)

Reports this morning that they are looking at delaying the 21st June date by two weeks. It wouldn't be great if this happens but personally I'd rather they wait two weeks and then open up rather than open up and then have to shut down again.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Reports this morning that they are looking at delaying the 21st June date by two weeks. It wouldn't be great if this happens but personally I'd rather they wait two weeks and then open up rather than open up and then have to shut down again.
		
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These dates were never fixed in stone

The press have created this situation by referring to it as "freedom" day for ages 

What we have right now whilst not amazing is good .. we can meet outside up to 30 people 

Inside up to 6 or two families 

Eat in restaurants again 

People are eager to get back to normal which is understandable but if it causes another lockdown what's the actual point


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## D-S (Jun 5, 2021)

I seem to recall that the government and their advisors said that the various dates/milestones were 'not before' dates i.e. x and y restrictions would be lifted not before May 17th. Also they often repeated the mantra 'we will be driven by data not dates'.
The media seem to have conveniently forgotten this and now the dates are 'set in stone' and any deviation will now be decried as a U-turn. A 2 week delay would certainly be acceptable and would fit into the government narrative but won't be tolerated by the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' media.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			I seem to recall that the government and their advisors said that the various dates/milestones were 'not before' dates i.e. x and y restrictions would be lifted not before May 17th. Also they often repeated the mantra 'we will be driven by data not dates'.
The media seem to have conveniently forgotten this and now the dates are 'set in stone' and any deviation will now be decried as a U-turn. A 2 week delay would certainly be acceptable and would fit into the government narrative but won't be tolerated by the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' media.
		
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The media have been disgusting throughout this pandemic (and in general)

I actually tuned into as many briefings as I could to hear what actually was said and not the spin put on by the press ...


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## Tashyboy (Jun 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Ah ha I see. I did wonder why the Kent version hadn't had a rename when the world (ok most of Europe) were blaming the UK for the 2nd wave! Makes sense to now be consistent at least.
		
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Ave always said that sometimes it’s not what is said, it is how it is said. President Trumps insistence on reminding people that the original Virus came from Chiiiiiiiiiiiina. With the emphasis on putting his finger and thumb together in an ok sign to emphasise the point for me pointed hatred towards the Chinese. I could never understand why no one ever pulled him up on the fact that the Spanish flu originated in America and would he like to rename that The American Flu.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 5, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Ave always said that sometimes it’s not what is said, it is *how it is said.* President Trumps insistence on reminding people that the original Virus came from Chiiiiiiiiiiiina. With the emphasis on putting his finger and thumb together in an ok sign to emphasise the point for me pointed hatred towards the Chinese. I could never understand why no one ever pulled him up on the fact that the Spanish flu originated in America and would he like to rename that The American Flu.
		
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It not how it’s said it’s who said it…when Trump said it came from a Chinese lab there was general uproar from the Media, now Stairlift Joe says the same thing it’s taken seriously…

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111.amp


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely these conditions are where we get closer to each other again. 

As I said previously, my main concern is that if the virus is not contained we create the conditions for the virus to mutate and it appears to do that very easily where numbers are high. Imagine a new variety that is immune to current vaccines then the logistics of creating a new vaccination and it being available worldwide.  

IMO the current trend with the exponential growth of infections is very concerning.
		
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I agree with your last sentence completely. All I'm saying is that the reasons for the growth you describe are the lack of SD practice and lack of vaccination , more than which variant it is.
As with any variant of Covid, the more it proliferates the easier it is (for mutations too) for it to defeat a populace. Until we get to the situation Ethan describes as community immunity. That's why we must demand SD practice and vaccinations.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			It not how it’s said it’s who said it…when Trump said it came from a Chinese lab there was general uproar from the Media, now Stairlift Joe says the same thing it’s taken seriously…

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111.amp

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To be fair he called it Chinese flu


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## Ethan (Jun 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I agree with your last sentence completely. All I'm saying is that the reasons for the growth you describe are the lack of SD practice and lack of vaccination , more than which variant it is.
As with any variant of Covid, the more it proliferates the easier it is (for mutations too) for it to defeat a populace. Until we get to the situation Ethan describes as community immunity. That's why we must demand SD practice and vaccinations.
		
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I agree, it is definitely the case that variants will be encouraged by long term low-grade rates. 

I would point out that by community immunity, I mean something more than herd immunity. I mean the accumulated effect of multiple exposures allowing immune systems to fill in a few blanks.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 6, 2021)

Who said…..

 "It is time to distinguish for the purposes of freedom from restriction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, both for citizens here for domestic purposes; but also for our citizens and those from other countries in respect of travel on the basis that being vaccinated substantially reduces risk."   

It’s only Tony Blair!! 

He acknowledged this would involve discriminating between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, adding: "Other than for medical reasons, people should be vaccinated."

Can’t believe me and Tone are so in step! 😆


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 6, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Who said…..

 "It is time to distinguish for the purposes of freedom from restriction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, both for citizens here for domestic purposes; but also for our citizens and those from other countries in respect of travel on the basis that being vaccinated substantially reduces risk."   

It’s only Tony Blair!! 

He acknowledged this would involve discriminating between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, adding: "Other than for medical reasons, people should be vaccinated."

Can’t believe me and Tone are so in step! 😆
		
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Nor  me, but there you are. Can't disagree.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Who said…..

"It is time to distinguish for the purposes of freedom from restriction between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, both for citizens here for domestic purposes; but also for our citizens and those from other countries in respect of travel on the basis that being vaccinated substantially reduces risk."  

It’s only Tony Blair!!

He acknowledged this would involve discriminating between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, adding: "Other than for medical reasons, people should be vaccinated."

Can’t believe me and Tone are so in step! 😆
		
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I assume we can discuss this as he's no longer a politician?😉 I must admit I read it mysf earlier and had to pinch myself a few times as I found myself agreeing with him for probably the first time ever😂


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## Crumplezone (Jun 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I reckon the Kent variant should be renamed  "The foreign truck drivers and rubber boat migrant variant"
		
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As all truck drivers and asylum seekers are tested either before or immediately as they enter the country and are pretty much isolated from everyone else, you reckon wrong. Maybe 'stupid British people in Kent not following the rules variant' might be accurate.


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I assume we can discuss this as he's no longer a politician?😉 I must admit I read it mysf earlier and had to pinch myself a few times as I found myself agreeing with him for probably the first time ever😂
		
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It was the most common sense talked about this subject in a long time, & you weren't the only one pinching yourself.


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## chrisd (Jun 6, 2021)

Crumplezone said:



			As all truck drivers and asylum seekers are tested either before or immediately as they enter the country and are pretty much isolated from everyone else, you reckon wrong. Maybe 'stupid British people in Kent not following the rules variant' might be accurate.
		
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 Not sure about being so wrong

But  lorries, by the thousand from all different countries,  came in before the need to have a test came in just about Christmas and New Year, and it was known that  Covid was rife in the army camp used for hundreds of migrants who were crossing the Channel up to a few hundred a day.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2021)

It’s how it’s distinguished is my concern. imagine if it’s a yellow star worn on the breast pocket. I’m all for a vaccine passport but I’d hate to see people being barred from entry to a restaurant etc purely because they haven’t yet been jabbed.


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## Grizzly (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No it didnt. It was fine all summer, it didnt start ramping up until late in the autumn when the weather turned crap and all the religious festivals started. You want to blame the government for everything but there comes a point when they've done all they can and people have to take responsibility for following the guidance and the rules set out to protect them.
		
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Having worked at the front line of the response, I have to concur - there have undoubtedly been some errors on the part of the Government in their handling of the pandemic, but with the exception of the release of patients back to care homes, we are not talking about gross negligence, we're talking about people trying their best in situations they found themselves woefully ill prepared for.    Some people were unlucky to catch it, but a lot contributed to the fact - the biggest trigger to the rise last autumn was students going to University and thinking the rules did not apply to them!


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## RichA (Jun 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			It’s how it’s distinguished is my concern. imagine if it’s a yellow star worn on the breast pocket. I’m all for a vaccine passport but I’d hate to see people being barred from entry to a restaurant etc purely because they haven’t yet been jabbed.
		
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Slightly extreme. Asking you to show the app on your phone might be appropriate.


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## SammmeBee (Jun 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			Slightly extreme. Asking you to show the app on your phone might be appropriate.
		
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That won’t work as we know so many people can’t do online scoring on their phones then no chance they’ll be able to do that!


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			Slightly extreme. Asking you to show the app on your phone might be appropriate.
		
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Deliberately extreme to highlight a potential issue of discrimination. As I said, I’m all for a vaccine passport/QR code but only if it’s used for the right things at the right time.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			To be fair he called it Chinese flu
		
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...and he had no real evidence for what he was saying...I suspect that he was simply repeatedly stressing on it in an attempt to divert attention from his own and his administrations utter failure to take it seriously at first.  I don’t think there is any debate about him not taking it seriously at first but won’t enter into any debate on the matter as that would be politikal.


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## Billysboots (Jun 6, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			It was the most common sense talked about this subject in a long time, & you weren't the only one pinching yourself. 

Click to expand...

Totally agree. Once the vaccination program started there was always going to be a watershed moment, beyond which the expectation that those fully vaccinated still had to live under severe restrictions had to ease. You can’t expect people to accept the vaccine if you aren’t going to allow increased freedoms in return - the public simply won’t stand for it.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Deliberately extreme to highlight a potential issue of discrimination. As I said, I’m all for a vaccine passport/QR code but only if it’s used for the right things at the right time.
		
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I imagine it will be down to individual establishments who they let in. And if there's two pubs near each other, one of which only lets in vaccinated punters, i know which one I will be going in!


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Totally agree. Once the vaccination program started there was always going to be a watershed moment, beyond which the expectation that those fully vaccinated still had to live under severe restrictions had to ease. You can’t expect people to accept the vaccine if you aren’t going to allow increased freedoms in return - the public simply won’t stand for it.
		
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Billysboots said:



			- the public simply won’t stand for it.
		
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The amount of people I have now spoken to who are saying the same I feel that tipping point isn't far away that people say we've had enough, poke your restrictions we're getting on with life


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## chrisd (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I imagine it will be down to individual establishments who they let in. And if there's two pubs near each other, one of which only lets in vaccinated punters, i know which one I will be going in!
		
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The one that does the cheapest pint?


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			The one that does the cheapest pint?
		
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You know me too well...


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I imagine it will be down to individual establishments who they let in. And if there's two pubs near each other, one of which only lets in vaccinated punters, i know which one I will be going in!
		
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The one without any Portsmouth fans in it?


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I imagine it will be down to individual establishments who they let in. And if there's two pubs near each other, one of which only lets in vaccinated punters, i know which one I will be going in!
		
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And that’s where the danger lies Paul. Some fruitcake fire bombs the non-vaxxed/anti-vaxxers. The unclean ones!

I genuinely don’t know the right answer but I am also against non-vaxxed from international travel and attending large events.

Yes bring something sensible in but let’s not place a stigma on those not yet vaxxed.


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## Crumplezone (Jun 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Not sure about being so wrong

But  lorries, by the thousand from all different countries,  came in before the need to have a test came in just about Christmas and New Year, and it was known that  Covid was rife in the army camp used for hundreds of migrants who were crossing the Channel up to a few hundred a day.
		
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Oh I don't know, it just sounded like the usual 'blame it on foreigners, especially asylum seekers' Daily Mail rubbish. As asylum seekers are, as you say, separated from the rest of the population, it seems a far more reasonable assumption that British people were spreading it. There's a lot more of them and they were mixing freely. Colossal number of idiots were choosing to ignore the rules.


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## Ethan (Jun 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Deliberately extreme to highlight a potential issue of discrimination. As I said, I’m all for a vaccine passport/QR code but only if it’s used for the right things at the right time.
		
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It is not discrimination if everyone has the opportunity to get one. If people choose not to get the vax (and there are very very few who medically can't), then they accept the consequences. They have the right not to be vacc'd but not the right to spread the infection to others.


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2021)

If anybody has been offered the vaccine and turned it down (excluding medical exemptions), I'd lock them up and keep them locked up until they did have it.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If anybody has been offered the vaccine and turned it down (excluding medical exemptions), I'd lock them up and keep them locked up until they did have it.
		
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Probably a bit harsh. Maybe we could just send them all to the isle of wight or something?🤔


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## D-S (Jun 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If anybody has been offered the vaccine and turned it down (excluding medical exemptions), I'd lock them up and keep them locked up until they did have it.
		
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A tad extreme, I would merely politely but firmly request that they continue shielding until either they get themselves vaccinated or the pandemic is over. With necessary checks and punishments if they decided not to shiel, persistent offenders would face jail, preferably after a long time on remand (Quarantine).😉


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Probably a bit harsh.
		
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It's what they need.
Where would we be if we all refused the vaccine.
Maybe the prison guards could mix the vaccine up in their food and tell them the next day.


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If anybody has been offered the vaccine and turned it down (excluding medical exemptions), I'd lock them up and keep them locked up until they did have it.
		
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What would you do with those were the vaccine doesn’t have an effect? send them to the gas chambers? Work camp? 
Perhaps we should test the efficacy of each other’s vaccine response so to weed those hidden unclean people out. 
Why if they’re medically exempt would you spare them?  Obviously they are not good for society,  spread the illness and should be disposed of?


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Probably a bit harsh. Maybe we could just send them all to the isle of wight or something?🤔
		
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Kent, near Chrisd


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If anybody has been offered the vaccine and turned it down (excluding medical exemptions), I'd lock them up and keep them locked up until they did have it.
		
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😟

What about some of the ladies that are pregnant that are worried about the effects ? There are still people who will be worried about the side affects


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			What would you do with those were the vaccine doesn’t have an effect? send them to the gas chambers? Work camp?
		
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How would you know if the vaccine doesn’t have an effect unless you take the vaccine.



Liverpoolphil said:



			😟

What about some of the ladies that are pregnant that are worried about the effects ? There are still people who will be worried about the side affects
		
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And the people with medical exemptions will get a tweaked vaccine when available.


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## RichA (Jun 6, 2021)

Isn't there a theory that suggests that any internet forum thread will eventually end with people comparing the other side of their argument to the nazis?


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			Isn't there a theory that suggests that any internet forum thread will eventually end with people comparing the other side of their argument to the nazis?
		
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Will when one group thinks they should send what they think are unclean no good to society people to prison it sort of mirrors the thinking of a man with a rubbish moustache.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 6, 2021)

If anyone thinks Bob was being serious, then they have a real problem with their lives.


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## Ethan (Jun 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			Isn't there a theory that suggests that any internet forum thread will eventually end with people comparing the other side of their argument to the nazis?
		
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Godwin's Law


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## Slime (Jun 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is not discrimination if everyone has the opportunity to get one. If people choose not to get the vax (and there are very very few who medically can't), then they accept the consequences. They have the right not to be vacc'd but not the right to spread the infection to others.
		
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Out of curiosity, any idea of the numbers who can't be vacc'd due to medical conditions?


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## The Dog. (Jun 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If anybody has been offered the vaccine and turned it down (excluding medical exemptions), I'd lock them up and keep them locked up until they did have it.
		
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Wow. Absolutely unbelievable.


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## chrisd (Jun 6, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Kent, near Chrisd
		
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I've had my 2 Pfizer  jabs so no worries here 😁😁


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## chrisd (Jun 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			Wow. Absolutely unbelievable.
		
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You will probably detect the main reason why "our Bob" isn't the Prime Minister 🤔


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## bobmac (Jun 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			You will probably detect the main reason why "our Bob" isn't the Prime Minister 🤔
		
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Or a moderator


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## chrisd (Jun 6, 2021)

Crumplezone said:



			Oh I don't know, it just sounded like the usual 'blame it on foreigners, especially asylum seekers' Daily Mail rubbish. As asylum seekers are, as you say, separated from the rest of the population, it seems a far more reasonable assumption that British people were spreading it. There's a lot more of them and they were mixing freely. Colossal number of idiots were choosing to ignore the rules.
		
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Except that Folkestone and Hythe had some of the lowest Covid numbers in Kent around the time that Macron started worrying about the "Kent variance" and I'm not certain how a few hundred immigrants locked in an old army barracks met enough British people to catch Covid as quick as they did - and, by the way I live in the Folkestone, Hythe area and didn't get my views from the Daily Mail


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Probably a bit harsh. Maybe we could just send them all to the isle of wight or something?🤔
		
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That's worse.


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## Ethan (Jun 6, 2021)

Slime said:



			Out of curiosity, any idea of the numbers who can't be vacc'd due to medical conditions?
		
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Really only allergy to components of vaccine, and most who are allergic to components of one can switch to another. Pregnancy is not a contraindication, but it passes with time. Being a cancer patient or having an auto-immune disorder isn't either.


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## bobmac (Jun 7, 2021)

Pathetic Shark said:



			If anyone thinks Bob was being serious, then they have a real problem with their lives.
		
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Of course I wasn't being serious, however the more I think about it........
Besides, I have friends in the Isle of Wight


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			It’s how it’s distinguished is my concern. imagine if it’s a yellow star worn on the breast pocket. I’m all for a vaccine passport but I’d hate to see people being barred from entry to a restaurant etc purely because they haven’t yet been jabbed.
		
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Was the "yet" part deliberate?  Because that little word moves the goalposts.
What Blair ( and others here) are talking about is those who refuse to be vaccinated. 
Please accept that we are talking about those who are able to be vaccinated ( no medical reason preventing it) , and have been offered the vaccination, but of their own free will have declined/refused it.
Now those people should most definitely be refused entry to a restaurant!
And other places of high density of people where the virus could/ would easily spread.


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## Ethan (Jun 7, 2021)

One of the elements in this debate is the idea that if we reach a herd immunity threshold, the problem of unvaccinated people goes away. It doesn't. 

Herd immunity is a mathematical model that basically says that if 1 person spreads to 3, for example, and you vaccinate or demonstrate that at least 2 out of 3 people are otherwise immune, then 1 person can only infect, on average, less than 1 other, so the pandemic cannot propagate. But you can still pass it on to non-immune people and they can still die, have an ICU staycation or pass it on, so there can be a persisting grumbling level of infection. This may be what people mean when they say 'we must learn to live with it', but they should remember than it can still kill people who are unvaccinated or whose immunity is not rock-solid or wears off.


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## RichA (Jun 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			One of the elements in this debate is the idea that if we reach a herd immunity threshold, the problem of unvaccinated people goes away. It doesn't.

Herd immunity is a mathematical model that basically says that if 1 person spreads to 3, for example, and you vaccinate or demonstrate that at least 2 out of 3 people are otherwise immune, then 1 person can only infect, on average, less than 1 other, so the pandemic cannot propagate. But you can still pass it on to non-immune people and they can still die, have an ICU staycation or pass it on, so there can be a persisting grumbling level of infection. This may be what people mean when they say 'we must learn to live with it', but they should remember than it can still kill people who are unvaccinated or whose immunity is not rock-solid or wears off.
		
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Out of interest, one of the consequences of SD and improved hygiene being the apparent decline of the common cold, is our immunity to it going to be reduced and its effects potentially more severe than we've been used to?


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## Ethan (Jun 7, 2021)

RichA said:



			Out of interest, one of the consequences of SD and improved hygiene being the apparent decline of the common cold, is our immunity to it going to be reduced and its effects potentially more severe than we've been used to?
		
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There has been a dramatic reduction (90%+) in flu as well this winter. Flu immunity is complex and has built up over years and decades, and it would probably take the same amount of time to abate, so I doubt we will see an increase in infectivity. We might see some extra deaths this winter, mainly because some of the people who would have died from flu this last winter dodged it, but their vulnerability is such that the next time it visits, its trouble. That is not a reduction in immunity, more a stay of execution. There is some development ongoing of combined Covid/flu vaccines which so far show that both work just as effectively as when given separately.

The common cold is caused by multiple viruses, including some coronaviruses. Unless the mix of viruses that cause it change, I don't think we'll see much change.


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## GB72 (Jun 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There has been a dramatic reduction (90%+) in flu as well this winter. Flu immunity is complex and has built up over years and decades, and it would probably take the same amount of time to abate, so I doubt we will see an increase in infectivity. We might see some extra deaths this winter, mainly because some of the people who would have died from flu this last winter dodged it, but their vulnerability is such that the next time it visits, its trouble. That is not a reduction in immunity, more a stay of execution. There is some development ongoing of combined Covid/flu vaccines which so far show that both work just as effectively as when given separately.

The common cold is caused by multiple viruses, including some coronaviruses. Unless the mix of viruses that cause it change, I don't think we'll see much change.
		
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Would the re-introduction of mask wearing in shops etc during flu season have a pronounced impact on flu deaths going forward. Now the idea is not so alien, and re-introduction during flu season could be an idea (suspect public would not go for it though).


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## Ethan (Jun 7, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Would the re-introduction of mask wearing in shops etc during flu season have a pronounced impact on flu deaths going forward. Now the idea is not so alien, and re-introduction during flu season could be an idea (suspect public would not go for it though).
		
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Yes, probably. Mask wearing has persisted in Asia after SARS. The howls of protest from people who think this is one step closer to totalitarianism would spread a lot of, well something bad.


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## Orikoru (Jun 7, 2021)

Had my first jab on Saturday evening, the Pfizer one. My arm ached like I'd been punched and given a dead arm, and I didn't sleep very well as I kept waking up. But no side effects other than that. Arm is already feeling better today. 

Second jab not til August 27th. 🤨


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## Crumplezone (Jun 7, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Except that Folkestone and Hythe had some of the lowest Covid numbers in Kent around the time that Macron started worrying about the "Kent variance" and I'm not certain how a few hundred immigrants locked in an old army barracks met enough British people to catch Covid as quick as they did - and, by the way I live in the Folkestone, Hythe area and didn't get my views from the Daily Mail
		
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It only takes one person to come in contact. As social distancing was made impossible by the conditions at the camp, it would spread very quickly.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 7, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			, and I didn't sleep very well as I kept waking up.
		
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Yeah, i always find waking up gets in the way of a good nights sleep...😉😂


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## Orikoru (Jun 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Yeah, i always find waking up gets in the way of a good nights sleep...😉😂
		
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Well I mean an abnormal number of times. Like 9 or 10 times I woke up in the night. I figured maybe it was just from rolling over and my arm hurting.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Well I mean an abnormal number of times. Like 9 or 10 times I woke up in the night. I figured maybe it was just from rolling over and my arm hurting.
		
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I hear tell that Viagra is helpful for that.  The rolling over that is 😉


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			... and I didn't sleep very well as *I kept waking up*....
		
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Give it a few years and you'll start to appreciate doing so!


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Well I mean an abnormal number of times. Like 9 or 10 times I woke up in the night. I figured maybe it was just from rolling over and my arm hurting.
		
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I was waking up 5 or 6 times each night for a wee, but after being prescribed some pills I now only wake up twice a night


And wet the bed 4 times 😖😖


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## IainP (Jun 9, 2021)

Thought this is a pretty good article 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57403888
In the spirit of "you can't please everyone all of the time" & "who'd be a decision maker"

Personally, with things on mainland Europe finally settling down (good thing), and the UK seemingly trending the other way it's feeling less comfortable - and delicately balanced. Will be watching closely the next week.


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2021)

My Mum suffers from a form of leukemia known as CLL, and was warned that she may not be able to produce antibodies as a result.
So she took an antibody test the other day has has found out that she has no antibodies, despite having had 2 AZ vaccines, and seeing significant improvement in the number of cancerous cells.
So it appears she (and the rest of the family) are going to have to remain extra careful.


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## Ethan (Jun 9, 2021)

JamesR said:



			My Mum suffers from a form of leukemia known as CLL, and was warned that she may not be able to produce antibodies as a result.
So she took an antibody test the other day has has found out that she has no antibodies, despite having had 2 AZ vaccines, and seeing significant improvement in the number of cancerous cells.
So it appears she (and the rest of the family) are going to have to remain extra careful.
		
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That is bad news, although the lack of antibodies doesn't mean she necessarily has no immune response at all. Still, need to be careful as you say. Her case is a good example why other people should consider the benefits to broader society when deciding if they are to have the vaccine. If everybody else was vaccinated, she would at much lower risk.


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## JamesR (Jun 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is bad news, although the lack of antibodies doesn't mean she necessarily has no immune response at all. Still, need to be careful as you say. Her case is a good example why other people should consider the benefits to broader society when deciding if they are to have the vaccine. If everybody else was vaccinated, she would at much lower risk.
		
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The rest of us are all double vaccinated, for various illnesses and old age, so hopefully that should reduce the risk of us infecting her. But she isn't planning on mixing much with many people (especially those with kids/grandkids) for the foreseeable future.


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## Ethan (Jun 9, 2021)

JamesR said:



			The rest of us are all double vaccinated, for various illnesses and old age, so hopefully that should reduce the risk of us infecting her. But she isn't planning on mixing much with many people (especially those with kids/grandkids) for the foreseeable future.
		
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Hopefully her CLL will improve and she may then get better protection, but I think the strategy of being careful is a wise one, and probably one that more of us should practice.


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## GB72 (Jun 9, 2021)

Think we can safely say that the under 30s are not averse to being vaccinated, booking in yesterday at a rate of 100000 per hour at times and averaging 750 a minute


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## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2021)

First time ave picked the grand sproggs up from school today for a couple of weeks. If I had a quid for every female in the school yard under 30 that did not have a mask on or an exemption lanyard I would be rich.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2021)

Hospital admissions up today, another jump in infection rates.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 9, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			First time ave picked the grand sproggs up from school today for a couple of weeks. If I had a quid for every female in the school yard under 30 that did not have a mask on or an exemption lanyard I would be rich.
		
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Either that is one hell of a size of a school or you have low expectations of being rich Tashy... 😂


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## BiMGuy (Jun 9, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			First time ave picked the grand sproggs up from school today for a couple of weeks. If I had a quid for every female in the school yard under 30 that did not have a mask on or an exemption lanyard I would be rich.
		
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Why would anyone need to wear a mask outside?


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## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Either that is one hell of a size of a school or you have low expectations of being rich Tashy... 😂
		
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Am back again tomorrow, winner winner chicken dinner 😁👍


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## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why would anyone need to wear a mask outside?
		
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school policy. The playground gets rammed.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 9, 2021)

Just outta interest

Both grand sproggs have been sent home from school over the last couple of months due to sore throat/ Covid sign.
They have had to have a Covid test where it is sent away for testing. Some schools are testing where you get the results after 30 mins. Why do they not do the 30 min Covid test If you have a sore throat? Is it because you have signs rather than just a random test? 
PS, both were negative.


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## Robster59 (Jun 9, 2021)

I had my second AZ Vaccine last Friday. In both cases I felt no ill effects whatsoever.  So I'm now fully vaccinated, as is Mrs Robster.  But we're still being incredibly diligent. We always sanitise our hands whenever we've been in anywhere. We still wipe down our shopping, wear masks, socially distance.  The virus is still out there, we don't know what new strains are out there, we don't want to infect anyone, so we are still very careful.  We go to visit the Father in Law in his home and the last thing we want is to be the cause of a breakout there.  I'll be honest. I thought today as I sanitised my hands and put a mask on to enter a shop, I just don't know when we will get back to the old "normal".


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 10, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I had my second AZ Vaccine last Friday. In both cases I felt no ill effects whatsoever.  So I'm now fully vaccinated, as is Mrs Robster.  But we're still being incredibly diligent. See always sanitise of hands whenever we've been in anywhere. We still wipe down our shopping, wear masks, socially distance.  The virus use still out there, we don't know what new strains are out there, we don't want to infect anyone, so we are still very careful.  We go to visit the Father in Law in his home and the last thing we want is to be the cause of a breakout there.  I'll be honest. I thought today as I sanitised my hands and put a mask on to enter a shop, I just don't know when we will get back to the old "normal".
		
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I know what you mean. "Just when will we be in a position where without masks and sanitizer we will not risk infecting someone?", seems a natural thought that may go on and on.
I can only hope that when all in the country,  including children, ( caveat, if not against  good medical practice), have been given or offered full vaccination , then we are firmly advised that normal, as we knew it, life can resume. That those refusing vaccination will have to accept the consequences 
as it affects their health and social limitations.
At some stage, Covid has to take a back seat in more ways than one.


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 10, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I had my second AZ Vaccine last Friday. In both cases I felt no ill effects whatsoever.  So I'm now fully vaccinated, as is Mrs Robster.  But we're still being incredibly diligent. We always sanitise our hands whenever we've been in anywhere. We still wipe down our shopping, wear masks, socially distance.  The virus is still out there, we don't know what new strains are out there, we don't want to infect anyone, so we are still very careful.  We go to visit the Father in Law in his home and the last thing we want is to be the cause of a breakout there.  I'll be honest. I thought today as I sanitised my hands and put a mask on to enter a shop, I just don't know when we will get back to the old "normal".
		
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Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government measure!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government measure!
		
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William Pitt introduced income tax The 9th of January 1799 AD William Pitt the Younger - Britain's youngest ever Prime Minister when he came to power in 1783 at the tender age of 24 - introduced income tax as "a temporary measure" in his December 1798 budget, coming into force on 9th January 1799.


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## jim8flog (Jun 10, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			First time ave picked the grand sproggs up from school today for a couple of weeks. If I had a quid for every female in the school yard under 30 that did not have a mask on or an exemption lanyard I would be rich.
		
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 I am with Bim Guy on this. Why do people wear masks in the open air?

I understand China where they have a major smog problem and people are protecting themselves.


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## D-S (Jun 10, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I had my second AZ Vaccine last Friday. In both cases I felt no ill effects whatsoever.  So I'm now fully vaccinated, as is Mrs Robster.  But we're still being incredibly diligent. We always sanitise our hands whenever we've been in anywhere. *We still wipe down our shopping,* wear masks, socially distance.  The virus is still out there, we don't know what new strains are out there, we don't want to infect anyone, so we are still very careful.  We go to visit the Father in Law in his home and the last thing we want is to be the cause of a breakout there.  I'll be honest. I thought today as I sanitised my hands and put a mask on to enter a shop, I just don't know when we will get back to the old "normal".
		
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For your info. from the Health section of the BBC website:-
*2. You're extremely unlikely to catch Covid from touching things*
At the start of the pandemic, a lot of focus was on surfaces. People washed groceries and avoided touching buttons at pedestrian crossings. Councils shut playgrounds and cordoned off park benches. 
Yet it's been all but impossible to find an outbreak linked to an infected surface. 
"It's to do with how the virus actually enters your system - it's through the airways," says Dr Eilir Hughes, a GP and campaigner for more protective PPE for NHS staff.
The virus takes hold in the body via the respiratory system - that's why testing for it involves a swab up the nose and down the back of the throat. 
It would take an extremely unlikely chain of events for infected droplets on an object to end up in someone's nose or throat.
Hygiene is important, but washing hands and surfaces excessively, and avoiding touching objects - so-called "hygiene theatre" - has little impact on the spread of Covid.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 10, 2021)

D-S said:



			For your info. from the Health section of the BBC website:-
*2. You're extremely unlikely to catch Covid from touching things*
At the start of the pandemic, a lot of focus was on surfaces. People washed groceries and avoided touching buttons at pedestrian crossings. Councils shut playgrounds and cordoned off park benches. 
Yet it's been all but impossible to find an outbreak linked to an infected surface. 
"It's to do with how the virus actually enters your system - it's through the airways," says Dr Eilir Hughes, a GP and campaigner for more protective PPE for NHS staff.
The virus takes hold in the body via the respiratory system - that's why testing for it involves a swab up the nose and down the back of the throat. 
It would take an extremely unlikely chain of events for infected droplets on an object to end up in someone's nose or throat.
Hygiene is important, but washing hands and surfaces excessively, and avoiding touching objects - so-called "hygiene theatre" - has little impact on the spread of Covid.
		
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I am somewhat sceptical of this opinion ( which goes against the original science thinking, IIRC). I do not believe all other medics think the same way as Dr Hughes.
As it says, Covid begins as a respiratory invasion. But so too does flu and the common cold. All are viruses. 
It was only in recent years I recollect medical advice starting to emphasise that they can be spread by touch.  Some medics even thinking it spread more by touching contaminated objects, people being more careful of sneezing and coughing indiscriminately.
Of course, you can never prove exactly that a particular person became infected with Covid, flu or common cold , because they touched some object. To do so would mean proving that no other method could possibly be the actual route.
And that is impossible. 
Likelihood and evidence are two completely different things.
Being very keen to prevent infection by one method ( airborne, including droplets, ), as Dr Hughes apparently is, does not mean it must follow that it is not spread by other means.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

We are rather dreading the announcement about the 21st that we are to get maybe this weekend.  Our lad has got some work lined up for lats week June and into July - at last...but that is all very much at risk if the announcement goes the ‘wrong’ way.

We will not be at all happy if it comes to that as surely it could have been avoided.  We hear so much about the rights of individual choice around wishes, actions and behaviour - as if these choices pose no risk to others...and as much as some might like to deny or ignore it, individual choices can and do affect others - and often quite significantly.

My lad knows it is very important for there not to be further ‘closing downs’ as his sector just cannot operate in such uncertainty, but I am not sure young folk in general will put up with an extension to the restrictions on their lives.


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## road2ruin (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are rather dreading the announcement about the 21st that we are to get maybe this weekend.  Our lad has got some work lined up for lats week June and into July - at last...but that is all very much at risk if the announcement goes the ‘wrong’ way.

We will not be at all happy if it comes to that as surely it could have been avoided.  We hear so much about the rights of individual choice around wishes, actions and behaviour - as if these choices pose no risk to others...and as much as some might like to deny or ignore it, individual choices can and do affect others - and often quite significantly.

My lad knows it is very important for there not to be further ‘closing downs’ as his sector just cannot operate in such uncertainty, but I am not sure young folk in general will put up with an extension to the restrictions on their lives.
		
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My money is that there will be an extension of the present step for an initial period of 2 weeks or so. The Government are terrified of having to go backwards so they'll err on the side of caution and wait to see whether the increase in cases does lead to hospitalisations.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are rather dreading the announcement about the 21st that we are to get maybe this weekend.  Our lad has got some work lined up for lats week June and into July - at last...but that is all very much at risk if the announcement goes the ‘wrong’ way.

We will not be at all happy if it comes to that as surely it could have been avoided.  We hear so much about the rights of individual choice around wishes, actions and behaviour - as if these choices pose no risk to others...and as much as some might like to deny or ignore it, individual choices can and do affect others - and often quite significantly.

My lad knows it is very important for there not to be further ‘closing downs’ as his sector just cannot operate in such uncertainty, but I am not sure young folk in general will put up with an extension to the restrictions on their lives.
		
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I'm with you. Its time to crack on and try to repair some of the damage.
Shelter and protect those that need it and let the rest of us go back to normal. 

People can still take all the precautions they want and chose not to go places should they wish to.


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2021)

I think any delay in reopening would be wrong.
It would seem that the vast majority of people who are being hospitalised are people that have not had the vaccine and that's their own fault. (not including medical exemptions)


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It would seem that the vast majority of people who are being hospitalised are people that have not had the vaccine and that's their own fault. (not including medical exemptions)
		
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That seems to be the case. A few will be people who get the virus shortly after vaccination before it has time to take effect, shouldn't be too many (although will be a few) full vaccinated who just didn't get a great response, but mostly unvaccinated. Very few genuine medical exemptions (contraindications to vax), really only allergy/hypersensitivity to the specific components of the vaccine and some of those can find one or other vaccine that works for them depending on what the sensitivity is to.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

I have a fear that restrictions will be in place almost until September...when the furlough scheme ends. 

It’s relatively easy to look at and accept a current extension to restrictions if you are working or furloughed...an extension becomes less attractive and acceptable if you are not, or if you are faced with loss of work or no income through being furloughed.

My instinct is that if this PM of ours accepts advice that an extension now is required then it absolutely *must* be required, and I would go along with it.  However my lad will have lost 18months of his career and 18 months of income that he will never be able to recover, and I and my lad will expect someone or other to accept responsibility for this further extension, even if none is accepted by anyone for any (mis)management of the pandemic response overall.


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## need_my_wedge (Jun 11, 2021)

Not such good news

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...re-resistant-to-vaccines-phe-reports-12330068




			The Delta (Indian) variant is about 60% more transmissible than the Alpha (Kent) variant and vaccines are less effective against it, Public Health England has said.

More than 90% of new COVID-19 cases in the UK are now the Delta variant.


The variant, first identified in India, has taken over from the Alpha variant as the most dominant in the UK.

Since last week, the number of Delta variant cases across the UK has increased by 70% to 42,323.

New PHE research suggests the Delta variant is associated with an approximately 60% increased risk of household transmission compared with the Alpha variant.


And Delta cases are doubling across all regions of the country in between 4.5 days to 11.5 days.

In England, 39,061 Delta variant cases have now been confirmed, with 2,035 in Scotland, 184 in Wales and 43 in Northern Ireland.
		
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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Not such good news

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...re-resistant-to-vaccines-phe-reports-12330068

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After dose 2, the vaccine is still 75-85% effective, not really seeing that as a massive concern. Ethan may correct me but I would have thought that any normal vaccine produced that had that level of protection would be hailed a massive success even if it is not he 95% protection as offered against the alpha variant.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have a fear that restrictions will be in place almost until September...when the furlough scheme ends. 

It’s relatively easy to look at and accept a current extension to restrictions if you are working or furloughed...an extension becomes less attractive and acceptable if you are not, or if you are faced with loss of work or no income through being furloughed.

My instinct is that if this PM of ours accepts advice that an extension now is required then it absolutely *must* be required, and I would go along with it.  However my lad will have lost 18months of his career and 18 months of income that he will never be able to recover, and I and my lad will expect someone or other to accept responsibility for this further extension, even if none is accepted by anyone for any (mis)management of the pandemic response overall.
		
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The 'someone or other'  is not an organisation or dept or official body.
It's the muppets who don't SD and/or who refuse vaccines.
And you know that.


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			After dose 2, the vaccine is still 75-85% effective, not really seeing that as a massive concern. Ethan may correct me but I would have thought that any normal vaccine produced that had that level of protection would be hailed a massive success even if it is not he 95% protection as offered against the alpha variant.
		
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Indeed. I think a lot depends on what happens to the 15-25% who do not get protection against symptomatic Covid. If they have a mildly unpleasant flu like illness, no worries. If some of them end up in ICU, much bigger problem. 

Part of the anxiety you are seeing in anticipatory anxiety, and I think the real fear is that the epsilon or theta variant might be much less amenable to the vaccine. I for, and it is a highly transmissible variant, we are back to last summer because it will wipe out much of the assumed community immunity among those of us who have been vaccinated.


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## Beezerk (Jun 11, 2021)

Jab 2 done, sat in the chill out zone again waiting out my 15 minutes 😅


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## The Dog. (Jun 11, 2021)

I have stopped wearing a mask now and won't be doing so again.  Since last week, I am exempt.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

Really was impressed with the set up for my second jab. Administratively speaking, the first jab must have been easier as you turn up and get the jab du jour and off you go. Yesterday they were seamlessly juggling second jabs on various vaccines, first jabs on the under 30s who cannot have AZ etc and all with a friendly smile and getting you through quickly and efficiently without feeling like you were on a production line.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Indeed. I think a lot depends on what happens to the 15-25% who do not get protection against symptomatic Covid. If they have a mildly unpleasant flu like illness, no worries. If some of them end up in ICU, much bigger problem.

Part of the anxiety you are seeing in anticipatory anxiety, and I think the real fear is that the epsilon or theta variant might be much less amenable to the vaccine. I for, and it is a highly transmissible variant, we are back to last summer because it will wipe out much of the assumed community immunity among those of us who have been vaccinated.
		
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In theory, and this is just the sort of thing that plays around in my head with no basis in reality, could the theta variant, lets say, end up being far more infectious, vaccine immune but only gives you a mild cough lets say. Understand that the natural fear and assumption is that each variant will get worse but is it possible for the variants to go in the other direction.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			In theory, and this is just the sort of thing that plays around in my head with no basis in reality, could the theta variant, lets say, end up being far more infectious, vaccine immune but only gives you a mild cough lets say. Understand that the natural fear and assumption is that each variant will get worse but is it possible for the variants to go in the other direction.
		
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The Theta variant could just as easily be the one that wipes us all out as it could just give us a mild cough. Same could be said for any number of viruses. 

No point worrying about something that you have absolutely no control over.


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2021)

We seem to have forgotten that June 21st was only a "Not before..." target date depending on the prevailing conditions and prior to the rise in cases due to the Delta variant. 

Anybody making plans based on the 21st should have also made a robust contingency strategy.


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## Ethan (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			In theory, and this is just the sort of thing that plays around in my head with no basis in reality, could the theta variant, lets say, end up being far more infectious, vaccine immune but only gives you a mild cough lets say. Understand that the natural fear and assumption is that each variant will get worse but is it possible for the variants to go in the other direction.
		
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Sure, new variants could be more transmissible but less lethal. The most transmissible tend to become themes common variants, because they propagate faster than others. One that produces a very mild cough only could go unnoticed, though, as people wouldn't come forward for testing and the number of community cases might be difficult to judge. Lots of people get exposed to, and transmit, the cold or flu without ever getting symptoms themselves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			We seem to have forgotten that June 21st was only a "Not before..." target date depending on the prevailing conditions and prior to the rise in cases due to the Delta variant.

Anybody making plans based on the 21st should have also made a robust contingency strategy.
		
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But we know it has been labelled and subsequently referred to by some as ‘Freedom Day’ - and a date so identified by a name tend to happen on a specific date.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But we know it has been labelled and subsequently referred to by some as ‘Freedom Day’ - and a date so identified by a name tend to happen on a specific date.
		
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The press appear to have given it the name, surprised the big card companies did not follow suit, produce freedom day cards and make it an annual thing. 

Am i the only one who thinks of the classic Futurama episode when hearing about freedom day


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 11, 2021)

Given the restrictions at the recent Champions League final & the proposed reductions in capacity at Wembley for the Euros, can anyone explain to me why there appears to be bugger all social distancing at Edgbaston for the Test match against the Kiwis?


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given the restrictions at the recent Champions League final & the proposed reductions in capacity at Wembley for the Euros, can anyone explain to me why there appears to be bugger all social distancing at Edgbaston for the Test match against the Kiwis?
		
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its a test event, everyone had to be tested in advance and prove test results to get in and being tested several time afterwards


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given the restrictions at the recent Champions League final & the proposed reductions in capacity at Wembley for the Euros, can anyone explain to me why there appears to be bugger all social distancing at Edgbaston for the Test match against the Kiwis?
		
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews....est-covid-pilot-social-distancing-1043318/amp


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## larmen (Jun 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			its a test event, everyone had to be tested in advance and prove test results to get in and being tested several time afterwards
		
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There have been test events (I seem to remember a concert?) before, has anything been said about what happened? I think in the Netherlands they had a rave with no spikes after.


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## MGFore (Jun 11, 2021)

I was watching the cycling the other week and after it was Horse jumping from St Tropez.  All spectators sat sipping champagne, no social distancing or anything.  Then at another cycle event in France, hardly anyone out watching and those that were all had masks on.  Seems like the elite are immune from it.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

larmen said:



			There have been test events (I seem to remember a concert?) before, has anything been said about what happened? I think in the Netherlands they had a rave with no spikes after.
		
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Been lots of events now, not sure Ive seen any formal results, anecdotally heard the results after a club night in Liverpool were good.

Cynical me might suggest the results dont support the current plans


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## MGFore (Jun 11, 2021)

larmen said:



			There have been test events (I seem to remember a concert?) before, has anything been said about what happened? I think in the Netherlands they had a rave with no spikes after.
		
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Aye there was a rave thing in Liverpool.  What happened then?  That was about 4 weeks ago.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

Some results from a few weeks ago and the early test events

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/covid-trials-crowd-mass-events-b1851700.html


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

MGFore said:



			Aye there was a rave thing in Liverpool.  What happened then?  That was about 4 weeks ago.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-57249289


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

larmen said:



			There have been test events (I seem to remember a concert?) before, has anything been said about what happened? I think in the Netherlands they had a rave with no spikes after.
		
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I think I posted the results from them earlier in the thread. I think there was something like 12 cases from all the events, 6 from the clubbing nights indoors, none from football, a few from the snooker but all pretty positive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			The press appear to have given it the name, surprised the big card companies did not follow suit, produce freedom day cards and make it an annual thing.

Am i the only one who thinks of the classic Futurama episode when hearing about freedom day
		
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Not all of the press and not all of the media in general have done so.

Anyway and for what it’s worth, my cousin has tickets for the England vs Sri Lanka one day match on the 26th June.  He’s just been advised by email that as a result of ECB discussions with UK Gov, social distancing measures will remain in place.  Decision about 21st been made ?


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not all of the press and not all of the media in general have done so.

Anyway and for what it’s worth, my cousin has tickets for the England vs Sri Lanka one day match on the 26th June.  He’s just been advised by email that as a result of ECB discussions with UK Gov, social distancing measures will remain in place.  Decision about 21st been made ?
		
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Pretty much the only place that I have seen it called freedom day is the press, not seen it from any official source. Suspect that it is pretty much obvious to everyone that there will be a delay announced but would not be good for that to interfere with the G7 conference. Expect a Monday evening/night press conference. May get one or 2 concessions like being able to order a drink from the bar, that is one I have seen proposed, but can see a 2 week delay with plenty of wiggle room allowed for more time on top. Not the time now to be rash, we have a pretty big slice of normality back and I can happily hold as we are for a while yet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Pretty much the only place that I have seen it called freedom day is the press, not seen it from any official source. Suspect that it is pretty much obvious to everyone that there will be a delay announced but would not be good for that to interfere with the G7 conference. Expect a Monday evening/night press conference. May get one or 2 concessions like being able to order a drink from the bar, that is one I have seen proposed, but can see a 2 week delay with plenty of wiggle room allowed for more time on top. Not the time now to be rash, we have a pretty big slice of normality back and I can happily hold as we are for a while yet.
		
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As mentioned...it’s easy to be principled and support holding as we are if I am have steady income; am in stable employment, or on furlough.  There are very many who are not so fortunate.  A 4 week slippage of Freedom Day could be very damaging for some, as long as that is recognised.


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## D-S (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As mentioned...it’s easy to be principled and support holding as we are if I am have steady income; am in stable employment, or on furlough.  There are very many who are not so fortunate.  A 4 week slippage of Freedom Day could be very damaging for some, as long as that is recognised.
		
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As said before, it has not been labelled Freedom Day by official sources, it is a ‘not before‘ date. You can choose to call it the ‘we all get £20k day’ if you want but that will also be a disappointment. Restrictions will be not relaxed before 21st June, which may and probably will mean that they won’t be relaxed totally until some weeks afterwards. 
Believing what our media has made up and being upset when it doesn’t happen is a recipe for disappointment.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not all of the press and not all of the media in general have done so.

Anyway and for what it’s worth, my cousin has tickets for the England vs Sri Lanka one day match on the 26th June.  He’s just been advised by email that as a result of ECB discussions with UK Gov, social distancing measures will remain in place.  Decision about 21st been made ?
		
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Interesting. I'm waiting to hear if the British grand prix will go ahead this year, if this 4 week extension does happen i guess thay will be a no for a second year 😔


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As mentioned...it’s easy to be principled and support holding as we are if I am have steady income; am in stable employment, or on furlough.  There are very many who are not so fortunate.  A 4 week slippage of Freedom Day could be very damaging for some, as long as that is recognised.
		
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But now there are reports of areas such as the hospitality industry now crying out for staff, even on a temporary basis. The damage is certainly recognized as is the hardship but now there are starting to be opportunities at least to keep people ticking over for another month.


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## GB72 (Jun 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Interesting. I'm waiting to hear if the British grand prix will go ahead this year, if this 4 week extension does happen i guess thay will be a no for a second year 😔
		
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SaintHacker said:



			Interesting. I'm waiting to hear if the British grand prix will go ahead this year, if this 4 week extension does happen i guess thay will be a no for a second year 😔
		
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Was it on the list of test events, would be surprised if it was not.


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## D-S (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			But now there are reports of areas such as the hospitality industry now crying out for staff, even on a temporary basis. The damage is certainly recognized as is the hardship but now there are starting to be opportunities at least to keep people ticking over for another month.
		
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Every pub and restaurant near here are advertising for staff at the moment, same at golf clubs in F&B.


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## road2ruin (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Expect a Monday evening/night press conference. May get one or 2 concessions like being able to order a drink from the bar, that is one I have seen proposed, but can see a 2 week delay with plenty of wiggle room allowed for more time on top. Not the time now to be rash, we have a pretty big slice of normality back and I can happily hold as we are for a while yet.
		
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I assumed the Monday press conference was a cert as they were always going to give business and the public a week to get their heads round and prepare for the following week. If they don't have an announcement then everyone losses the plot as there's been no information. On the basis that it is going to be bad news I would expect the press to start telling us what the plan is tomorrow and Sunday. In fact I think the Times have already started floating the idea of a 4 week delay.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			But now there are reports of areas such as the hospitality industry now crying out for staff, even on a temporary basis. The damage is certainly recognized as is the hardship but now there are starting to be opportunities at least to keep people ticking over for another month.
		
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And yet BBC were reporting a couple of days ago that between 20 and 25% of hospitality staff were still on furlough. Why is the tax payer still paying for staff to stay at home when their industry is claiming to be so short of staff?


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And yet BBC were reporting a couple of days ago that between 20 and 25% of hospitality staff were still on furlough. Why is the tax payer still paying for staff to stay at home when their industry is claiming to be so short of staff?
		
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Some places will have a low footfall now. Our club only opens Friday to Sunday currently and that’s if we have the staff as most have left. Past two weekends we’ve seen it closed and drove to a near by pub for food. 
it’s not viable to keep places open full time for some and might as well rinse the furlough.


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## fundy (Jun 11, 2021)

Rumours that June 21st about to become July 19th with a chance to bring it forward to Jul 5th it seems


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			But now there are reports of areas such as the hospitality industry now crying out for staff, even on a temporary basis. The damage is certainly recognized as is the hardship but now there are starting to be opportunities at least to keep people ticking over for another month.
		
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Saw it first hand last weekend. Me and the mrs spent the weekend in Liverpool. The hotel staff were working ridiculous hours. We had a chat with te restaurant manager and he explained they just can't get any staff, most of the eastern europeans who made up a big proportion of the staff have either gone home or gone fruit picking, as thats paying £18 per hour. 
My son has had 3 different jobs since the start of the pandemic, which ended his first one (chef). He's now found a job in a totally different sector which he enjoys, but it goes to prove there is work out there for those who want it.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Was it on the list of test events, would be surprised if it was not.
		
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Don't think so. I really can't see them letting 100k people in one, admitedly massive, area like that, even with negative test/vaccine proof


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And yet BBC were reporting a couple of days ago that between 20 and 25% of hospitality staff were still on furlough. Why is the tax payer still paying for staff to stay at home when their industry is claiming to be so short of staff?
		
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This was another problem the manager told us about. People are refusing to come back to work as they're getting it too easy on furlough, and it seems if they try to 'persuade' them to come back they claim they're too scared of covid to come back so the employer is pretty much stuffed either way


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Saw it first hand last weekend. Me and the mrs spent the weekend in Liverpool. The hotel staff were working ridiculous hours. We had a chat with te restaurant manager and he explained they just can't get any staff, most of the eastern europeans who made up a big proportion of the staff have either gone home or gone fruit picking, as thats paying £18 per hour.
My son has had 3 different jobs since the start of the pandemic, which ended his first one (chef). He's now found a job in a totally different sector which he enjoys, but it goes to prove there is work out there for those who want it.
		
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Yup.  It certainly goes to prove some can get a job. No matter any background, qualifications, experience or expectations of work that may be just about to turn up that you might have had.  But hey.

Fortunately the UC folk understand that those who have lost jobs but are in expectation of work returning, are not being forced into taking any old work that is available - there are plenty out there who need the work.  And so if you are OK with hanging on waiting for work to resume and you can demonstrate reasonable restart of work then you will generally not be forced off UC.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

Guess it depends on how much a person actually wants to work to support themselves


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## Captainron (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup.  It certainly goes to prove some can get a job. No matter any background, qualifications, experience or expectations of work that may be just about to turn up that you might have had.  But hey.

Fortunately the UC folk understand that those who have lost jobs but are in expectation of work returning, are not being forced into taking any old work that is available - there are plenty out there who need the work.  And so if you are OK with hanging on waiting for work to resume and you can demonstrate reasonable restart of work then you will generally not be forced off UC.
		
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Doesn’t hurt for them to take on a new job while they wait for their field to be relevant again. Assume you’re alluding to your lad who is in the performing arts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Guess it depends on how much a person actually wants to work to support themselves
		
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That is not the case for all.  There are many individual specific variables and considerations that can be taken into account, and it seems that the UC folk recognise the situation of those whose work has been stopped by the pandemic but will restart as soon as government restrictions allow.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Doesn’t hurt for them to take on a new job while they wait for their field to be relevant again. Assume you’re alluding to your lad who is in the performing arts.
		
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His work is due to start up on the 24th June.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This was another problem the manager told us about. People are refusing to come back to work as they're getting it too easy on furlough, and it seems if they try to 'persuade' them to come back they claim they're too scared of covid to come back so the employer is pretty much stuffed either way
		
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Are you sure on this one? Surely it’s the employers decision when they end furlough.

All the people I know on furlough were either given a date or have a date when to return to work.


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## Slime (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But we know *it has been labelled and subsequently referred to by some as ‘Freedom Day’ *- and a date so identified by a name tend to happen on a specific date.
		
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That's our media for you!


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is not the case for all.  There are many individual specific variables and considerations that can be taken into account, and it seems that the UC folk recognise the situation of those whose work has been stopped by the pandemic but will restart as soon as government restrictions allow.
		
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Its absolutely the case for all.
Its about time the 'UC folk', and by that I mean those who can work but refuse to as opposed to those who genuinely cannot, should be made to do some community work to 'earn'their benefits. Maybe after a few days of picking up dog mess, cleaning graffiti and litter picking a few shifts at McDonald's suddenly wouldn't seem so unattractive...


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you sure on this one? Surely it’s the employers decision when they end furlough.

All the people I know on furlough were either given a date or have a date when to return to work.
		
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No idea, just going by what the guy told me


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This was another problem the manager told us about. People are refusing to come back to work as they're getting it too easy on furlough, and it seems if they try to 'persuade' them to come back they claim they're too scared of covid to come back so the employer is pretty much stuffed either way
		
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I've heard same.  Many in hospitality and especially chefs discovering there is life that doesn't require working evenings and weekends - and many EU27  chefs and hospitality workers going home and choosing to not return.  The answer I have heard is for that sector to start paying a lot more than it currently does - and that will of course mean that we have to pay more for the services the sector provides.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Its absolutely the case for all.
Its about time the 'UC folk', and by that I mean those who can work but refuse to as opposed to those who genuinely cannot, should be made to do some community work to 'earn'their benefits. Maybe after a few days of picking up dog mess, cleaning graffiti and litter picking a few shifts at McDonald's suddenly wouldn't seem so unattractive...
		
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Yup - that's just the way to make those whose life is very hard suffer even more and feel even worse about their circumstances.  But it's an idea.. Tell you what though - life on UC is not a bed of roses...in fact it's already really difficult - as you'd expect it to be.


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## Kellfire (Jun 11, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Its absolutely the case for all.
Its about time the 'UC folk', and by that I mean those who can work but refuse to as opposed to those who genuinely cannot, should be made to do some community work to 'earn'their benefits. Maybe after a few days of picking up dog mess, cleaning graffiti and litter picking a few shifts at McDonald's suddenly wouldn't seem so unattractive...
		
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Jobs available is much fewer than those unemployed.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Jobs available is much fewer than those unemployed.
		
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Indeed. A quick Google would suggest there are 1 million more people unemployed than there are jobs.

But, according to Google there are 656 thousand vacancies currently in the UK. 

That is an awful lot of jobs that need filling for those who want to work.

I struggle to understand why someone would stay on UC if there is the opportunity of work. Even if the work may not be in the sector someone would prefer to work in.


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## Billysboots (Jun 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			We seem to have forgotten that June 21st was only a "Not before..." target date depending on the prevailing conditions and prior to the rise in cases due to the Delta variant. 

Anybody making plans based on the 21st should have also made a robust contingency strategy.
		
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Absolutely bang on the money. It’s only the gutter press who have dubbed June 21 “Freedom Day”, totally irresponsibly. But they have been woefully irresponsible since early 2020.

If we have to wait another month is that really such a big deal?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Absolutely bang on the money. It’s only the gutter press who have dubbed June 21 “Freedom Day”, totally irresponsibly. But they have been woefully irresponsible since early 2020.

If we have to wait another month is that really such a big deal?
		
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It could be a very big deal if it resulted in me not earning, not paying my rent - again - and being evicted.  I am not saying there shouldn't be an extension - but don't imagine it's no big deal for everyone.

Also it was back late February (22nd?) our PM described his unlocking plan as a "one-way road to freedom".  He also said he could not guarantee it would be irreversible "but the intention is that it should be".   Unfortunately some anti-lockdown libertarian newspapers picked up on that and started referring to 21st June as Freedom Day - I guess with the intention of forcing his hand.

I just want to see and hear some accountability being accepted for this most likely extension - it needn't have happened.  And it will hurt many.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			Rumours that June 21st about to become July 19th with a chance to bring it forward to Jul 5th it seems
		
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That's a shame , got tickets for the open 16th July


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## SaintHacker (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - that's just the way to make those whose life is very hard suffer even more and feel even worse about their circumstances.  But it's an idea.. Tell you what though - life on UC is not a bed of roses...in fact it's already really difficult - as you'd expect it to be.
		
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It's not about making people feel worse. If it's that bad on UC then go and find a job, any job, even minimum wage will pay a lot more than UC. And then when a job does come up in the chosen sector how much better will it look on the cv if the applicant can show they went out and stood on their own two feet during the tough times rather than sit back and let the state take care of them?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Absolutely bang on the money. It’s only the gutter press who have dubbed June 21 “Freedom Day”, totally irresponsibly. But they have been woefully irresponsible since early 2020.

If we have to wait another month is that really such a big deal?
		
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Whilst I agree the delay shouldn't be a big deal in reality eviction protection is gone, 


SaintHacker said:



			It's not about making people feel worse. If it's that bad on UC then go and find a job, any job, even minimum wage will pay a lot more than UC. And then when a job does come up in the chosen sector how much better will it look on the cv if the applicant can show they went out and stood on their own two feet during the tough times rather than sit back and let the state take care of them?
		
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What happens when their is more people needing the jobs than jobs available


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## road2ruin (Jun 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Absolutely bang on the money. It’s only the gutter press who have dubbed June 21 “Freedom Day”, totally irresponsibly. But they have been woefully irresponsible since early 2020.

If we have to wait another month is that really such a big deal?
		
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Trouble with waiting a month is that there will be another variant and SAGE will want to study that data as well. 

Variants will continue to appear in other countries and they will, eventually, make their way here, there is nothing we can do to stop that. 

All the most vulnerable have been double vaxxed or at least had the opportunity. These accounted for 99% of deaths and 80% of severe hospitalisations. It’s time to open up. If they want to keep masks on indoors whilst moving around then so be it but everything else should be up and running.


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## Billysboots (Jun 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Trouble with waiting a month is that there will be another variant and SAGE will want to study that data as well. 

Variants will continue to appear in other countries and they will, eventually, make their way here, there is nothing we can do to stop that. 

All the most vulnerable have been double vaxxed or at least had the opportunity. These accounted for 99% of deaths and 80% of severe hospitalisations. It’s time to open up. If they want to keep masks on indoors whilst moving around then so be it but everything else should be up and running.
		
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The Indian variant appears to be a big deal, but only amongst those not vaccinated. If another month buys time to really ramp up the vaccination program then it’s perhaps a reasonable call. But there has to be a limit to the restrictions as they are.

When it comes to the likelihood of further variants I totally agree. As one of the many experts suggested a few days ago we can’t keep bolting down a rabbit hole every time a new variant emerges or we’ll be in this mess for ever more.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 11, 2021)

If we have to wait an extra month then so be it


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you sure on this one? Surely it’s the employers decision when they end furlough.

All the people I know on furlough were either given a date or have a date when to return to work.
		
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Is the right answer 👍

If the employer can show that their place of work has been risk assessed and deemed safe then the employee is required to return. If they don't then..............


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## BiMGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Whilst I agree the delay shouldn't be a big deal in reality eviction protection is gone, 


What happens when their is more people needing the jobs than jobs available
		
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This has been the case for a very long time. And I suspect it will always be the case. As I said above. There are 657k vacancies in the UK right now.

In my opinion there is no excuse for someone who is able to work, to not work and claim benefits just because they can't find something they like.

If I was employing someone and had two roughly equal candidates. If one had worked any job, and the other had just claimed benefits in between roles. I know which I would employ.


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## IainP (Jun 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As mentioned...it’s easy to be principled and support holding as we are if I am have steady income; am in stable employment, or on furlough.  There are very many who are not so fortunate.  A 4 week slippage of *Freedom Day* could be very damaging for some, as long as that is recognised.
		
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Oooh have you picked up a role in the mainstream media since retirement 😉😉😁


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## pauljames87 (Jun 11, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			This has been the case for a very long time. And I suspect it will always be the case. As I said above. There are 657k vacancies in the UK right now.

In my opinion there is no excuse for someone who is able to work, to not work and claim benefits just because they can't find something they like.

If I was employing someone and had two roughly equal candidates. If one had worked any job, and the other had just claimed benefits in between roles. I know which I would employ.
		
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Which is the standard in life.. hire the most experienced.. yet how can people get experience? Especially if more unemployed than jobs


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## IainP (Jun 12, 2021)

Summary of some recent thoughts 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57087517


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It could be a very big deal if it resulted in me not earning, not paying my rent - again - and being evicted.  I am not saying there shouldn't be an extension - but don't imagine it's no big deal for everyone.

Also it was back late February (22nd?) our PM described his unlocking plan as a "one-way road to freedom".  He also said he could not guarantee it would be irreversible "but the intention is that it should be".   Unfortunately some anti-lockdown libertarian newspapers picked up on that and started referring to 21st June as Freedom Day - I guess with the intention of forcing his hand.

I just want to see and hear some accountability being accepted for this most likely extension - it needn't have happened.  And it will hurt many.
		
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Come on, why do you think there is a need for an extension, and who is responsible.
 How do you bring a large section of the populace to account, or are you suggesting, as I think you are, that it is not the fault of the muppets not SD or getting vaccinated, but some 'body ', authority- I,e euphemisms for 
a group which cannot  be mentioned , but is headed by a recent bridegroom🤔


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## Ethan (Jun 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on, why do you think there is a need for an extension, and who is responsible.
How do you bring a large section of the populace to account, or are you suggesting, as I think you are, that it is not the fault of the muppets not SD or getting vaccinated, but some 'body ', authority- I,e euphemisms for
a group which cannot  be mentioned , but is headed by a recent bridegroom🤔
		
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Clearly there are both personal responsibilities and governmental responsibilities. To a certain extent, one can compensate for the other. If the population was all very socially responsible and followed voluntary advice religiously, no compulsion would be needed, and the other way round. 

However, there are copious examples that the population is not very socially responsible and getting even less so.

Setting up 21st June as a line in the sand was a mistake. However many asterisks were added in official documents, these do not reach the average punter. If the criteria were defined, as they had been before, in terms of the trend in hospitalisations, and/or certain vaccination targets, that may have encouraged more compliance, but as we have seen before, an end of term feeling sets in as we approach these dates, and that risks prolonging it all longer than necessary.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 12, 2021)

18th May no new cases, yesterday 7,958. Unfortunately, for me pushing the date back is the correct thing to do.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 12, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			18th May no new cases, yesterday 7,958. Unfortunately, for me pushing the date back is the correct thing to do.
		
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But its not about cases, cases dont matter if all anyone gets is an annoying cough, hospitalisation is the key number


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## Tashyboy (Jun 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But its not about cases, cases dont matter if all anyone gets is an annoying cough, hospitalisation is the key number
		
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Ave a feeling one may lead to the other. ☹️ Ie rising numbers means hospital cases rising.


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## Ethan (Jun 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But its not about cases, cases dont matter if all anyone gets is an annoying cough, hospitalisation is the key number
		
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Yes, but if someone gets an annoying cough, they may put someone else in hospital. If you stop that someone getting the cough, you also stop the other person ending in hospital. Hence the need to maintain controls on transmissibility.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 12, 2021)

What I think is brilliant about the past year is it's shown how many highly qualified scientists there are about .. even if it's not their day job


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## Kellfire (Jun 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			What I think is brilliant about the past year is it's shown how many highly qualified scientists there are about .. even if it's not their day job
		
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Wotched a video on YouTube m8


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## RichA (Jun 12, 2021)

The current fuss being made by some about not fully normalising by 21st June is reminiscent of the media's badgering the government not to "cancel christmas".
The government bottled christmas and left it to the common sense of the masses. The worst wave of deaths began a couple of weeks later. 
We're now mostly back to normal and vaccinated.
We've come this far. I don't understand why we would take any risk while we wait to see what the score is with the current blip.


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## D-S (Jun 12, 2021)

78.4% of adults have received one dose, 55.9% of adults have received two doses as of today. A 4 week delay would allow an extra 12 million jabs in arms at the current rate, if they were evenly distributed between first and second doses this would equate to 90% of those 18+ single jabbed and 67% fully vaccinated.
4 weeks in the scheme of what we have gone through and under the current liveable restrictions seems very sensible to me.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 12, 2021)

D-S said:



			78.4% of adults have received one dose, 55.9% of adults have received two doses as of today. A 4 week delay would allow an extra 12 million jabs in arms at the current rate, if they were evenly distributed between first and second doses this would equate to 90% of those 18+ single jabbed and 67% fully vaccinated.
4 weeks in the scheme of what we have gone through and under the current liveable restrictions seems very sensible to me.
		
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Can’t see it making any difference if the unmentionables continue to refuse the jab. almost all the current cases are eligible for the vaccine but have refused. 🤷‍♂️


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## SaintHacker (Jun 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, but if someone gets an annoying cough, they may put someone else in hospital. If you stop that someone getting the cough, you also stop the other person ending in hospital. Hence the need to maintain controls on transmissibility.
		
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But I thought this was the whole point of a vaccine, to either stop person a getting it and passing it to person b, or at the least if transmission does happen then making it that person b migjt get ill bjt stays out of hospital. 
If there is any truth about the majority of hospitalisations being from thise who have refused a vaccine why should the rest of us have to suffer further restrictions?


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## Ethan (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But I thought this was the whole point of a vaccine, to either stop person a getting it and passing it to person b, or at the least if transmission does happen then making it that person b migjt get ill bjt stays out of hospital.
If there is any truth about the majority of hospitalisations being from thise who have refused a vaccine why should the rest of us have to suffer further restrictions?
		
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It isn't all those who have refused, it includes those who have not had a good response (vax not 100% effective, especially with new variants) and those not yet reached in the vax programme. I agree that people who choose not to have the vax should not hold up everybody else.


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But I thought this was the whole point of a vaccine, to either stop person a getting it and passing it to person b, or at the least if transmission does happen then making it that person b migjt get ill bjt stays out of hospital.
If there is any truth about the majority of hospitalisations being from thise who have refused a vaccine why should the rest of us have to suffer further restrictions?
		
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Because we’re decent people and don’t want people to die because they made a mistake?

Ok, that maybe doesn’t apply to you so I’ll try something else...

Because the more people who catch the virus, the higher the chance a new vaccine resistant variant gets a chance to establish itself.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because we’re decent people and don’t want people to die because they made a mistake?

Ok, that maybe doesn’t apply to you so I’ll try something else...

Because the more people who catch the virus, the higher the chance a new vaccine resistant variant gets a chance to establish itself.
		
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What do you mean, " made a mistake". . .?
Some people are refusing ( that's a positive, deliberate decision because of some belief or other)   to. SD and/or be vaccinated and it means probably harming themselves and others, and doing big damage to the economy and people's financial security and future, and you think that is a "mistake" we should be sympathetic about.

And if we don't , we aren't "decent" people.

You throw diabolical insults at people without a second thought, 

and you clearly don't think anyone should be responsible for their actions, even if those actions endanger or restrict other people.
There's always an excuse from that personal responsibility .

Sheesh!

Or maybe I've just taken the bait from a troll


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What do you mean, " made a mistake". . .?
Some people are refusing ( that's a positive, deliberate decision because of some belief or other)   to. SD and/or be vaccinated and it means probably harming themselves and others, and doing big damage to the economy and people's financial security and future, and you think that is a "mistake" we should be sympathetic about.

And if we don't , we aren't "decent" people.

You throw diabolical insults at people without a second thought,

and you clearly don't think anyone should be responsible for their actions, even if those actions endanger or restrict other people.
There's always an excuse from that personal responsibility .

Sheesh!

Or maybe I've just taken the bait from a troll
		
Click to expand...

I think everyone should get the vaccination. To not get the vaccination is a mistake. I hope that’s cleared that one up for you. You seem to have gone off on one a tad there.


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## D-S (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I think everyone should get the vaccination. To not get the vaccination is a mistake. I hope that’s cleared that one up for you. You seem to have gone off on one a tad there.
		
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Should there be consequences for this ‘mistake’? It is of course a ‘mistake’ which threatens the lives, mental health and livelihoods of very many people.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because we’re decent people and don’t want people to die because they made a mistake?

Ok, that maybe doesn’t apply to you so I’ll try something else...

Because the more people who catch the virus, the higher the chance a new vaccine resistant variant gets a chance to establish itself.
		
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I'm not a decent person because after over 18 months of having my life put on hold for the greater good, whuch I've done without question,  I've now had enough and want some normality back and I can't due to a load of dickheads who won't do what they're asked and have a simple little jab???
Whatever, troll....


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			Should there be consequences for this ‘mistake’? It is of course a ‘mistake’ which threatens the lives, mental health and livelihoods of very many people.
		
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Yes there should be consequences but that doesn’t mean the rest of us shouldn’t be careful.


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm not a decent person because after over 18 months of having my life put on hold for the greater good, whuch I've done without question,  I've now had enough and want some normality back and I can't due to a load of dickheads who won't do what they're asked and have a simple little jab???
Whatever, troll....
		
Click to expand...

You’re not a decent person if you don’t care that they’re in paying for the stupidity with their lives in some cases.


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## jim8flog (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I'm not a decent person because after over 18 months of having my life put on hold for the greater good, whuch I've done without question,  I've now had enough and want some normality back and I can't due to a load of dickheads who won't do what they're asked and have a simple little jab???
Whatever, troll....
		
Click to expand...


This report shows the statistics indicate that the increase in hospital admissions includes a large number of 'younger' people that would not have the opportunity to have a vaccine (probably) .
Last report on the page

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

The news report have been saying the same i.e an increase in cases in the younger generations.


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## larmen (Jun 13, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			This report shows the statistics indicate that the increase in hospital admissions includes a large number of 'younger' people that would not have the opportunity to have a vaccine (probably) .
Last report on the page

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

The news report have been saying the same i.e an increase in cases in the younger generations.
		
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It must be the reopening then which is responsible for the ‘spike’ rather than the new variants?


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## jim8flog (Jun 13, 2021)

larmen said:



			It must be the reopening then which is responsible for the ‘spike’ rather than the new variants?
		
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 back to school? and younger generations tend to congregate in larger numbers than the older generation.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You’re not a decent person if you don’t care that they’re in paying for the stupidity with their lives in some cases.
		
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See my previous reply, last two words


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			See my previous reply, last two words
		
Click to expand...

Imagine having such an inflated opinion of your own views that you think someone who disagrees with you must be trolling.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Imagine having such an inflated opinion of your own views that you think someone who disagrees with you must be trolling.
		
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Imagine having such an inflated opinion of your own views that you think its ok to insult people who disagree with you


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Imagine having such an inflated opinion of your own views that you think its ok to insult people who disagree with you
		
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 You do realise that you called me a troll, which is an insult, right? Oopsie.


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## D-S (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You’re not a decent person if you don’t care that they’re in paying for the stupidity with their lives in some cases.
		
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However, and this is the point which you seem to be missing, they are paying for as you say for 'their stupidity' with other people lives as well as their own. This does not seem to be acceptable in a civilised society.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You do realise that you called me a troll, which is an insult, right? Oopsie.
		
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Yep, in response to your initial insult, which, again as usual, was completely uncalled for .


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			However, and this is the point which you seem to be missing, they are paying for as you say for 'their stupidity' with other people lives as well as their own. This does not seem to be acceptable in a civilised society.
		
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I haven’t missed the point at all, I just haven’t addressed it.

It’s simple - if people won’t get vaccinated then those of us that have may need to continue with certain restrictions.


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Yep, in response to your initial insult, which, again as usual, was completely uncalled for .
		
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I stand by the fact that if you think people deserve to get sick because they won’t get vaccinated, that makes you not a decent person.

Do you think people (including those vaccinated because they would be affected, too) deserve to get sick because some people refuse to get vaccinated?


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## SaintHacker (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I stand by the fact that if you think people deserve to get sick because they won’t get vaccinated, that makes you not a decent person.

Do you think people (including those vaccinated because they would be affected, too) deserve to get sick because some people refuse to get vaccinated?
		
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Where exactly have I said that?


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Where exactly have I said that?
		
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You haven’t, which is why I’m asking.


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## D-S (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I haven’t missed the point at all, I just haven’t addressed it.

It’s simple - if people won’t get vaccinated then those of us that have may need to continue with certain restrictions.
		
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So we have to pay for 'their stupidity' and you are happy with that? You do realise that 'certain restrictions' do not work 100% and so that the way we 'pay for their stupidity' is with our lives - are you happy with that?


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## drdel (Jun 13, 2021)

Many of the young people getting the virus are innocent victims of other idiots. It's reported locally that about 60 kids tested positive as the result of one family returning from India not following the guidance. The same community have been among the lowest jab takeup sectors.


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			So we have to pay for 'their stupidity' and you are happy with that? You do realise that 'certain restrictions' do not work 100% and so that the way we 'pay for their stupidity' is with our lives - are you happy with that?
		
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No I’m not happy with that. It’s just how it may have to be. 

And I’m not happy with the fact people will get sick because of their refusals either. 

What would you suggest happens? Force vaccinate people?


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 13, 2021)

@SaintHacker and @Kellfire 
Handbags away now please 

Agree to disagree and move on


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## D-S (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			No I’m not happy with that. It’s just how it may have to be.

And I’m not happy with the fact people will get sick because of their refusals either.

What would you suggest happens? Force vaccinate people?
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't dream of force vaccinating and I am not sure why you should assume that I might be.
Perhaps those that choose not to be vaccinated should be the ones who face restrictions, maybe greater than we are currerntly forced to have - a restriction in contact with others, high grade face masks, self isolation - there are a range of measures which would allow thier 'stupidity' not to affect the health and mental well being of others in society.


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			I wouldn't dream of force vaccinating and I am not sure why you should assume that I might be.
Perhaps those that choose not to be vaccinated should be the ones who face restrictions, maybe greater than we are currerntly forced to have - a restriction in contact with others, high grade face masks, self isolation - there are a range of measures which would allow thier 'stupidity' not to affect the health and mental well being of others in society.
		
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I didn’t assume you would be for forced vaccinations. I asked you if you were.

The problem with your suggestions is that those who are vaccinated mix with those who aren’t.


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## D-S (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I didn’t assume you would be for forced vaccinations. I asked you if you were.

The problem with your suggestions is that those who are vaccinated mix with those who aren’t.
		
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Not if they self isolate they don't and if they do have to mix a high grade face mask might help. Perhaps. as we were advised, they should act as if they have it until they make the choice of getting a free life saving vaccine.


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## Ethan (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			No I’m not happy with that. It’s just how it may have to be.

And I’m not happy with the fact people will get sick because of their refusals either.

What would you suggest happens? Force vaccinate people?
		
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I wouldn't advocate forcing vaccinations, but I would happily restrict the ability for those not vaccinated to spread the infection, so I am entirely comfortable with Covid passports/apps for indoor events and the like. In addition, I think peol,e in certain jobs should be vaccinated or demonstrate immunity another way, or be withdrawn from their roles. The passport is not discriminatory so long as all genders, faiths and races have equal access. If some or other choose not to accept it, that is their choice, but there should be consequences for that choice.


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## IanM (Jun 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wouldn't advocate forcing vaccinations, but I would happily restrict the ability for those not vaccinated to spread the infection, so I am entirely comfortable with Covid passports/apps for indoor events and the like. In addition, I think peol,e in certain jobs should be vaccinated or demonstrate immunity another way, or be withdrawn from their roles. The passport is not discriminatory so long as all genders, faiths and races have equal access. If some or other choose not to accept it, that is their choice, but there should be consequences for that choice.
		
Click to expand...

This... 


The only lack of equal access has been age based prioritisation.   (and minor regional rates of application)


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wouldn't advocate forcing vaccinations, but I would happily restrict the ability for those not vaccinated to spread the infection, so I am entirely comfortable with Covid passports/apps for indoor events and the like. In addition, I think peol,e in certain jobs should be vaccinated or demonstrate immunity another way, or be withdrawn from their roles. The passport is not discriminatory so long as all genders, faiths and races have equal access. If some or other choose not to accept it, that is their choice, but there should be consequences for that choice.
		
Click to expand...

This is where I’m at, too. I agree.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wouldn't advocate forcing vaccinations, but I would happily restrict the ability for those not vaccinated to spread the infection, so I am entirely comfortable with Covid passports/apps for indoor events and the like. In addition, I think peol,e in certain jobs should be vaccinated or demonstrate immunity another way, or be withdrawn from their roles. The passport is not discriminatory so long as all genders, faiths and races have equal access. If some or other choose not to accept it, that is their choice, but there should be consequences for that choice.
		
Click to expand...

100% agree. A worker at my wifes pre school, who works with vulnerable children, is refusing to have the jab for no other reason than she 'doesnt see why she should have it'🙄 Unfortunately the setting can't really do anything abiut it it seems, personally I think she should be invited to seek alternative employment


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## AmandaJR (Jun 13, 2021)

I play golf with an anti-vaxxer conspiracy theorist. Much as I like her, and to an extent respect her freedom of choice, I don't think she should be allowed to mix indoors with those that are vaccinated. Clubhouse out of bounds and, therefore, a bit safer for the rest who are using it.

That would have made her think a bit if the away match to Woburn was off limits...


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## road2ruin (Jun 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wouldn't advocate forcing vaccinations, but I would happily restrict the ability for those not vaccinated to spread the infection, so I am entirely comfortable with Covid passports/apps for indoor events and the like. In addition, I think peol,e in certain jobs should be vaccinated or demonstrate immunity another way, or be withdrawn from their roles. The passport is not discriminatory so long as all genders, faiths and races have equal access. If some or other choose not to accept it, that is their choice, but there should be consequences for that choice.
		
Click to expand...

Agree, it’s not discriminatory of you are making a conscious choice to be put in that particular group. My freedoms should not be limited by them. Anyone who makes the choice not to have it should have their movements severely limited. No access to leisure, religious facilities and anywhere else that fairly large numbers gather.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 13, 2021)

Very slippery slope here. 

I wonder if the more elderly demographic would feel the same if they were required to have a vaccine for a virus that adversely affected younger generations, or face being excluded from parts of society? 

I very much doubt it.


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## D-S (Jun 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Very slippery slope here.

I wonder if the more elderly demographic would feel the same if they were required to have a vaccine for a virus that adversely affected younger generations, or face being excluded from parts of society?

I very much doubt it.
		
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2 things

1 - yes I think they would take it, just as the younger generation are queuing up for this one. I have no reason to suppose that the older generation is more or less selfish than the younger - wherever the divide between the two is.

2 - which slightly contradicts the first point, the virus, by the hospitalisations that we are currently seeing, is plainly a risk for the younger generation too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 13, 2021)

Until every single person has been given the chance to have the vaccine should they then look at vaccine passports etc


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I haven’t missed the point at all, I just haven’t addressed it.

*It’s simple - if people won’t get vaccinated then those of us that have may need to continue with certain restrictions.*

Click to expand...

So how long for? If in 4 weeks time the delta variant is still rampaging through the unvaccinated do we lock down for another few months whilst the unvaccinated continue to live there lives unfettered?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Until every single person has been given the chance to have the vaccine should they then look at vaccine passports etc
		
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As long as there is the option to prove that you've recently had a negative test or have antibodies from infection, rather than having been double jabbed, then there's no reason that vaccine passports can't be brought in now.


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			So how long for? If in 4 weeks time the delta variant is still rampaging through the unvaccinated do we lock down for another few months whilst the unvaccinated continue to live there lives unfettered?
		
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If that’s the only way to avoid sickness and deaths, maybe.


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## road2ruin (Jun 13, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			If that’s the only way to avoid sickness and deaths, maybe.
		
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But if they are making a conscious choice not be be vaccinated then they should also take the accompanied risk that goes with that.


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## Kellfire (Jun 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But if they are making a conscious choice not be be vaccinated then they should also take the accompanied risk that goes with that.
		
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But it affects the rest of us, too. Being vaccinated doesn’t provide 100% immunity.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			So how long for? If in 4 weeks time the delta variant is still rampaging through the unvaccinated do we lock down for another few months whilst the unvaccinated continue to live there lives unfettered?
		
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We aren’t in lockdown now so why will go back into lockdown ?

Can we not learn from previous mistakes about relaxing rules too early , if some level of restrictions need to stay because the virus is still affecting people’s lives dramatically then we continue on.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We aren’t in lockdown now so why will go back into lockdown ?

Can we not learn from previous mistakes about relaxing rules too early , if some level of restrictions need to stay because the virus is still affecting people’s lives dramatically then we continue on.
		
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It’s time to relax the rules… the vulnerable majority have been vaxxed and lived a whole year social distancing. If there was any indication that the unvaccinated were starting to take up the Vaccination then I would say it is worth delaying the relaxing of the rules but there isn’t so what’s the point?


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## theoneandonly (Jun 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s time to relax the rules… the vulnerable majority have been vaxxed and lived a whole year social distancing. If there was any indication that the unvaccinated were starting to take up the Vaccination then I would say it is worth delaying the relaxing of the rules but there isn’t so what’s the point?
		
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There are still a lot of us late 40's wating for our 2nd jab,  i've no issue waiting a few weeks so we can get fully vacced.


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## RichA (Jun 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s time to relax the rules… the vulnerable majority have been vaxxed and lived a whole year social distancing. *If there was any indication that the unvaccinated were starting to take up the Vaccination* then I would say it is worth delaying the relaxing of the rules but there isn’t so what’s the point?
		
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Completely anecdotal, but I walked through the Westfield Shopping Centre in Stratford on Friday. Hundreds of 20-somethings queuing patiently for vaccinations.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			There are still a lot of us late 40's wating for our 2nd jab,  i've no issue waiting a few weeks so we can get fully vacced.
		
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Statistically your more likely to die by accident or injury than Covid. We need to start getting back to normal now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 13, 2021)

RichA said:



			Completely anecdotal, but I walked through the Westfield Shopping Centre in Stratford on Friday. Hundreds of 20-somethings queuing patiently for vaccinations.
		
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I think the previous point relates to those offered the vaccine but refused, not the young who are next due it. Take up amongst the young is decent I believe. Apart the obvious benefits I think many can see a vaccine passport looming on the horizon for entry to events, festivals, clubs etc and want in.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 13, 2021)

RichA said:



			Completely anecdotal, but I walked through the Westfield Shopping Centre in Stratford on Friday. Hundreds of 20-somethings queuing patiently for vaccinations.
		
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Yes I know, it’s brilliant isn’t it.👍 (I should have said vulnerable unvaccinated)


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2021)

Maybe the correct term is 'To Shield' We need to shield the anti-vaxers from their own stupidity.


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## bobmac (Jun 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We are close to normal - there is no rush , *we started to get back to normal last year and things got worse.*

Click to expand...

And since then, over 71 million vaccines have been given.



Liverpoolphil said:



			People need to consider the needs of all not some
		
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If you are talking about those who refuse the vaccine, I agree, they should think of everyone, not just themselves


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Statistically your more likely to die by accident or injury than Covid. We need to start getting back to normal now.
		
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It’s far too late to tell people that. Media driven irrational fear and thinking has taken over.

All it’s ever been is big emotive words on pedestals surrounded by chevrons, graphs with big red lines, catchy slogans, haunting adverts with people staring and big numbers shown negatively.
No positives like recoveries, numbers with no context with death numbers like age and obesity, did they have underlying conditions?  Where was the virus contracted? In the community or care setting?

The mental recovery from this will take a long long time. Psychologically damaged.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And since then, over 71 million vaccines have been given.



If you are talking about those who refuse the vaccine, I agree, they should think of everyone, not just themselves
		
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71 million is not the whole country is it - remember all “in it together” when the younger generation were told they had to stick to restrictions - let’s hope it’s still the same when we waiting for all to have the vaccine so that restrictions can be reduced or even fully removed. 

As can be seen with the increase of infections and hospitalisation this virus isn’t beaten yet and it would be naive at best to just let everyone roam free without any level of social distancing and restrictions in place. I’m happy to see some level be in place until all have been offered the vaccine


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## bobmac (Jun 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m happy to see some level be in place until all have been offered the vaccine
		
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And if a large number refuse the vaccine, keeping new cases and hospitalisations up, then what, keep waiting?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 13, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And if a large number refuse the vaccine, keeping new cases and hospitalisations up, then what, keep waiting?
		
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As my post said “all have been offered a vaccine”

But if people are still dying and the country still has issues with the virus then yes some levels of restrictions should stay in place 

I don’t know what it is people want to do that they can’t right now but surely it’s not that important in the grand scheme of life


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## road2ruin (Jun 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As my post said “all have been offered a vaccine”

But if people are still dying and the country still has issues with the virus then yes some levels of restrictions should stay in place

I don’t know what it is people want to do that they can’t right now but surely it’s not that important in the grand scheme of life
		
Click to expand...

But the vast majority of those in hospital have been offered the vaccine….and declined it. 

I was also under the impression that this was about protecting the NHS and the vulnerable not waiting until we’ve vaccinated an entire nation especially as we’re now done to the ages that made up a fraction of the hospitalisations in the first place.


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## bobmac (Jun 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But if people are still dying and the country still has issues with the virus then yes some levels of restrictions should stay in place
		
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Can you tell us how many people have died after having the vaccine?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But the vast majority of those in hospital have been offered the vaccine….and declined it.

I was also under the impression that this was about protecting the NHS and the vulnerable not waiting until we’ve vaccinated an entire nation especially as we’re now done to the ages that made up a fraction of the hospitalisations in the first place.
		
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So what is it exactly you are so desperate to do that you can’t do now - if restrictions are continued for longer how is your life affected that drastically 



bobmac said:



			Can you tell us how many people have died after having the vaccine?
		
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Does it matter ? People are still dying from it , the virus is still dramatically affecting peoples life’s right now 

Same question - what is it you want to do that you can’t now ?


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## MGFore (Jun 13, 2021)

Restrictions put in place by governments ar having more of a negative effect than the virus now.


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## MGFore (Jun 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what is it exactly you are so desperate to do that you can’t do now - if restrictions are continued for longer how is your life affected that drastically



Does it matter ? People are still dying from it , the virus is still dramatically affecting peoples life’s right now

Same question - what is it you want to do that you can’t now ?
		
Click to expand...

That's one of the things I have seen most 'well we are back to normal'

Reduced capacity pubs, restaurants, cafes etc.
Masking mandate
track and trace
Nightclubs still shut
Theatres still shut
Social distancing
No freedoms to travel abroad
Furlough and government handouts keeping people afloat.  Just

We are far from 'normal'  But those who are happy to sit WFH whilst still enjoying their deliveroo's and their amazon orders flooding in are the ones who think life is still normal.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			It’s far too late to tell people that. Media driven irrational fear and thinking has taken over.

All it’s ever been is big emotive words on pedestals surrounded by chevrons, graphs with big red lines, catchy slogans, haunting adverts with people staring and big numbers shown negatively.
No positives like recoveries, numbers with no context with death numbers like age and obesity, did they have underlying conditions?  Where was the virus contracted? In the community or care setting?

The mental recovery from this will take a long long time. Psychologically damaged.
		
Click to expand...

Is the death of the old and obese a more acceptable death? How many other death demographics would be more acceptable?


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## BiMGuy (Jun 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is the death of the old and obese a more acceptable death?
		
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No, but if its a considerable factor it should be highlighted. How many obese people have done anything about it to lower their risk?

Look at the typical wearer of sunflower lanyards, and people not wearing masks. The one's I have seen have been mostly obese and middle aged/older people.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			No, but if its a considerable factor it should be highlighted. How many obese people have done anything about it to lower their risk?

Look at the typical wearer of sunflower lanyards, and people not wearing masks. The one's I have seen have been mostly obese and middle aged/older people.
		
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I have seem all kinds of people not wearing masks.  How much detail do you want regarding deaths and is it's necessity so people can gloat at their deaths.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I have seem all kinds of people not wearing masks.  How much detail do you want regarding deaths and is it's necessity so people can gloat at their deaths.
		
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Who is gloating. If being obese is a significant contributory factor in hospitalisation or death from covid, it should be highlighted. If it hurts someone's feelings then so be it.


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## Ethan (Jun 13, 2021)

drdel said:



			Many of the young people getting the virus are innocent victims of other idiots. It's reported locally that about 60 kids tested positive as the result of one family returning from India not following the guidance. The same community have been among the lowest jab takeup sectors.
		
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Have you any data to support that assertion, although you have not named a specific ethnic group.

This report notes that as of early June, vax rates in those who identify as Hindu was 92%, compared to 93.2% of those who identify as Christian. Around 80% of Indians self identify as Hindu. Not a big difference, I am sure you will agree. 

There have been outbreaks after white British people have returned for abroad too.


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## Ethan (Jun 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Very slippery slope here.

I wonder if the more elderly demographic would feel the same if they were required to have a vaccine for a virus that adversely affected younger generations, or face being excluded from parts of society?

I very much doubt it.
		
Click to expand...

The ethics of each situation varies, according to the personal risk, but also consequences for others. As a general rule, you should have greater liberty to do something stupid and harmful to yourself than to others.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 13, 2021)

MGFore said:



			That's one of the things I have seen most 'well we are back to normal'

Reduced capacity pubs, restaurants, cafes etc.
*Masking mandate
track and trace*
Nightclubs still shut
Theatres still shut
*Social distancing*
No freedoms to travel abroad
Furlough and government handouts keeping people afloat.  Just

We are far from 'normal'  But those who are happy to sit WFH whilst still enjoying their deliveroo's and their amazon orders flooding in are the ones who think life is still normal.
		
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I fear you are going to be sadly disappointed if you expect those things to be removed, even if the announcement is that we will take the next step on 21st June.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2021)

In St Ives earlier today it struck us that very few folks were wearing masks and social distancing seemed to be something we used to have to do.  Point is that many are acting and behaving now as if all restrictions have already been lifted - and so all that will be achieved by keeping restrictions in place is that hospitality, theatre and events will be clobbered further.  If so many are already behaving as they are and infections are spreading, is there any point in delaying.   My instinct is to keep restrictions in place, but given how things are today I more inclined to think that I don’t see the point.  Even with things kept as they are today, I just don’t see infection rate being any different in four weeks time - well I can’t see that it’ll be any lower.

As an aside there is some dismay in the St Ives area as covid infections are on the rise and restaurants are having to close - exacerbated by having G7 and the way that has been organised (media, delegates, police and security have been toing and froing from all over the place).  Not good.


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## Ethan (Jun 13, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Statistically your more likely to die by accident or injury than Covid. We need to start getting back to normal now.
		
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That is incorrect, both statistically and grammatically. 

The often quoted risk of accident/injury is a lifetime risk, the Covid risk we see is based on a much shorter exposure period. Risk needs to be based on time. 

Less than 3000 people die on the roads each year, a lot, but a whole lot less than the Covid death toll. 

The risk of Covid death has been estimated by Prof David Speigelhalter as roughly you other risks of death combined, disease, accident, injury, the lot. That is obviously age related, as is Covid death.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Who is gloating. If being obese is a significant contributory factor in hospitalisation or death from covid, it should be highlighted. If it hurts someone's feelings then so be it.
		
Click to expand...

If they're for assisting to reduce death rates then they are useful to the appropriate authorities but I get a feeling that some here are suggesting that deaths in certain demographics are of little consequence.


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## MGFore (Jun 13, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I fear you are going to be sadly disappointed if you expect those things to be removed, even if the announcement is that we will take the next step on 21st June.
		
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I am not that naïve.


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## SatchFan (Jun 13, 2021)

Having had my second jab two weeks ago my putting has improved dramatically. I'm going to volunteer for a third jab to see if it can sort out my driving.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 13, 2021)

Thread tidied up yet again and a couple of infractions handed out

lets get a few things straight

This thread is for how Covid has affected you
It is not to have a go at government policy
If you disagree with something a poster has said, then discuss it as adults, do not trade insults as this sets off the Fragger Alarm 
and you dont want to do that.

Agree to disagree and move on

Nothing discussed here is going to change anything anywhere, so dont get het up about it

Lastly , we are a golf forum 

We are a GOLF FORUM

Thread reopened


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## Slime (Jun 13, 2021)

On the whole, my life has not been too badly affected by Coronavirus.
I appreciate I am one of the lucky ones and I genuinely sympathise with those who have not been so fortunate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 13, 2021)

Just watching the news I am confused as to how keeping things as they are might cause the current daily increase in infections to level off...otherwise 16,000 a day is possible by end of the month...the only thing that might have a levelling effect is the fact that as days pass ever more of us are vaccinated.  Is that it?  

Sounds like another 4 weeks of the current ‘steady as we go’...and hoping that the vaccination programme constrains growth in infection spread.  I am not clear that that is the hope and expectation.  And that concerns me - as it will have an impact on me.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 13, 2021)

Slime said:



			On the whole, my life has not been too badly affected by Coronavirus.
I appreciate I am one of the lucky ones and I genuinely sympathise with those who have not been so fortunate.
		
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Was that it............?

OK , glad you got that off yer chest


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is the death of the old and obese a more acceptable death? How many other death demographics would be more acceptable?
		
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It’s not about acceptable deaths. it’s more to calm the fear driven by watching the TV by people who’ll be majorly unaffected statistically. 
It’s not good for mental health to be bombarding people with negativity and it won’t help recovery as a nation if everyone is soiling themselves as they’ve been psychologically abused.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 13, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Thread tidied up yet again and a couple of infractions handed out

lets get a few things straight

This thread is for how Covid has affected you
It is not to have a go at government policy
If you disagree with something a poster has said, then discuss it as adults, do not trade insults as this sets off the Fragger Alarm
and you dont want to do that.

Agree to disagree and move on

Nothing discussed here is going to change anything anywhere, so dont get het up about it

Lastly , we are a golf forum

We are a GOLF FORUM

Thread reopened
		
Click to expand...

how comes I always miss the fun 😳, I watched the football.That wasn’t fun either. Fragger should be handing out an infraction to Southgate.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 13, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			how comes I always miss the fun 😳, I watched the football.That wasn’t fun either. Fragger should be handing out an infraction to Southgate.
		
Click to expand...

We won didn’t we ? 😂


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## Pants (Jun 13, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We won didn’t we ? 😂
		
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Not really.  The other team just lost.

Disclaimer.  I know nothing (or care less) about soccer.


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just watching the news I am confused as to how keeping things as they are might cause* the current daily increase in infections* to level off...otherwise 16,000 a day is possible by end of the month..
		
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June 11...8,125 new cases ..... 17 deaths
June 12...7,738 new cases.......12 deaths
June 13...7,490 new cases.......8 deaths

Dam these daily increases.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			June 11...8,125 new cases ..... 17 deaths
June 12...7,738 new cases.......12 deaths
June 13...7,490 new cases.......8 deaths

Dam these daily increases.
		
Click to expand...

June 6th - 5689 new cases and 1 death 

The number of cases has been rising over the past 4 weeks 

This looks like the sensible decision 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57464097


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			June 11...8,125 new cases ..... 17 deaths
June 12...7,738 new cases.......12 deaths
June 13...7,490 new cases.......8 deaths

Dam these daily increases.
		
Click to expand...

Weekend data always light, Tuesday bounce might happen.


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			June 11...8,125 new cases ..... 17 deaths
June 12...7,738 new cases.......12 deaths
June 13...7,490 new cases.......8 deaths

Dam these daily increases.
		
Click to expand...

Reporting always drops off at the weekend. Tuesday is always a bad day. I think that's why the 7-day average is the most used stat.


Ethan said:



			Weekend data always light, Tuesday bounce might happen.
		
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This. I've always been a bit of a stats bore and have watched the COVID numbers daily since it started. Wednesday, Thursday and the rolling 7-day average are the only realistic reflection of what's happening.


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			June 6th - 5689 new cases and 1 death

The number of cases has been rising over the past 4 weeks

This looks like the sensible decision

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57464097

Click to expand...

Apologies for using the most current figures available.
SILH quoted the ''current daily increases''



Ethan said:



			Weekend data always light, Tuesday bounce might happen.
		
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How will what might happen on Tuesday affect what the PM will announce today?


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Apologies for using the most current figures available.
SILH quoted the ''current daily increases''



How will what might happen on Tuesday affect what the PM will announce today?
		
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It shouldn't. A few days data are not reliable enough to make a difference. He should base the decision on the last month's observations, some data, some genetics, some other considerations about forthcoming risks.


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## jim8flog (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			June 11...8,125 new cases ..... 17 deaths
June 12...7,738 new cases.......12 deaths
June 13...7,490 new cases.......8 deaths

Dam these daily increases.
		
Click to expand...

 reporting the figures for the weekend period always shows a drop as not all cases get reported due to lack of staff. It is why you should only look at the 7 day rolling average.

There's lies, damn lies and then there is statistics.


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			Reporting always drops off at the weekend. *Tuesday is always a bad day*. I think that's why the 7-day average is the most used stat.
		
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Tuesday 4th of May 13 deaths
Tuesday 11th of May 13 deaths
Tuesday 18th of May 9 deaths
Tuesday 25th of May 7 deaths
Tuesday 1st of June 7 deaths
Tuesday 8th of June 11 deaths.

Please stop telling me figures drop off at the weekends, I know.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In St Ives earlier today it struck us that *very few folks were wearing masks and social distancing *seemed to be something we used to have to do.  Point is that many are acting and behaving now as if all restrictions have already been lifted - and so all that will be achieved by keeping restrictions in place is that hospitality, theatre and events will be clobbered further.  If so many are already behaving as they are and infections are spreading, is there any point in delaying.   My instinct is to keep restrictions in place, but given how things are today I more inclined to think that I don’t see the point.  Even with things kept as they are today, I just don’t see infection rate being any different in four weeks time - well I can’t see that it’ll be any lower.

As an aside there is *some dismay in the St Ives area as covid infections are on the rise* and restaurants are having to close - exacerbated by having G7 and the way that has been organised (media, delegates, police and security have been toing and froing from all over the place).  Not good.
		
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I wonder why infections are rising.


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## larmen (Jun 14, 2021)

Does anyone know if Wembley was a test event gif tested or vaccinated people?


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Tuesday 4th of May 13 deaths
Tuesday 11th of May 13 deaths
Tuesday 18th of May 9 deaths
Tuesday 25th of May 7 deaths
Tuesday 1st of June 7 deaths
Tuesday 8th of June 11 deaths.

Please stop telling me figures drop off at the weekends, I know.
		
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Your previous point inferred that rates were falling, based on data you quoted from Friday through Sunday. It made it look like you didn't know.
Awfully sorry. 😎


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			Your previous point inferred that rates were falling, based on data you quoted from Friday through Sunday. It made it look like you didn't know.
Awfully sorry. 😎
		
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I'm sorry, that wasn't meant to be just aimed at you.
Like many people, I have been watching the figures every day since they became available and I've tried to fact check everything I read and post. It's just annoying when the media spout misleading rubbish and Joe public swallow it hook line and sinker and repeat it willy nilly.
I understand that cases have increased recently but ''there are suggestions those admitted now are not as sick as those admitted last year. Patients appear to be younger and fitter and not needing as much treatment''.*
I guess it depends if the PM will take any notice of those suggestions.

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57417802


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## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2021)

There’s a graph on the BBC news site showing what is predicted on June 21st, should we continue as per normal. It does not make good reading esp when you see where we were on May 16th


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## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry, that wasn't meant to be just aimed at you.
Like many people, I have been watching the figures every day since they became available and I've tried to fact check everything I read and post. It's just annoying when the media spout misleading rubbish and Joe public swallow it hook line and sinker and repeat it willy nilly.
I understand that cases have increased recently but ''there are suggestions those admitted now are not as sick as those admitted last year. *Patients appear to be younger and fitter *and not needing as much treatment''.*
I guess it depends if the PM will take any notice of those suggestions.

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57417802

Click to expand...

Me and Missis T went out for a socially distanced meal in Mansfield for the first time in 18 months week last Saturday. It is not surprising re younger people getting Covid from what we saw ☹️


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s a graph on the BBC news site showing what is predicted on June 21st, should we continue as per normal. It does not make good reading esp when you see where we were on May 16th
		
Click to expand...

On May 16th, 10 people died from Covid. 
Then the restrictions were eased.
Yesterday, 8 people died from Covid.


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry, that wasn't meant to be just aimed at you.
Like many people, I have been watching the figures every day since they became available and I've tried to fact check everything I read and post. It's just annoying when the media spout misleading rubbish and Joe public swallow it hook line and sinker and repeat it willy nilly.
I understand that cases have increased recently but ''there are suggestions those admitted now are not as sick as those admitted last year. Patients appear to be younger and fitter and not needing as much treatment''.*
I guess it depends if the PM will take any notice of those suggestions.

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57417802

Click to expand...

No worries. Everybody happy. 

I figure the decision makers will be looking at all sorts of obscure data that doesn't necessarily get published. Movement of people between areas with higher infection and death rates; trends in infection and vaccination in countries that we're now seeing or soon likely to see more travel to and from; infection and hospitalisation amongst the as yet unvaccinated younger folks.

At risk of bashing the media again, they tend to publish what gets us arguing more than what will make us all well informed.


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Me and Missis T went out for a socially distanced meal in Mansfield for the first time in 18 months week last Saturday. It is not surprising re younger people getting Covid from what we saw ☹️
		
Click to expand...

Mansfield on a Friday or Saturday night was never a great snapshot of western civilisation. 🍺👊🍺👊🍺👊🍺
I've left out some other fruit and veg based emojis so I don't get in trouble.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			On May 16th, 10 people died from Covid.
Then the restrictions were eased.
Yesterday, 8 people died from Covid.
		
Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57464097

I think the graph is focusing on the wave of infections 👍


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

The PM has always said he will be led by the data (and quite rightly so) so I won't be surprised if he announces a delay in the reopening date. But with around half a million people getting jabbed every day I feel happier when I do venture out to do my hunting and gathering


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## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			Mansfield on a Friday or Saturday night was never a great snapshot of western civilisation. 🍺👊🍺👊🍺👊🍺
I've left out some other fruit and veg based emojis so I don't get in trouble.
		
Click to expand...

The pub i went in the social distancing was excellent, the biggest concern I saw was people queuing to get into pubs didn’t look good at all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

For the people that appear to be desperate for all restrictions to be removed in 7 days time - can someone list me what it is that it will allow them to do that they can’t now or is it more about personal freedom of just being allowed to do whatever they want

Someone at the club yesterday was ranting about the restrictions needing to end ASAP - his reason “sick of having to book a tee time”


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The pub i went in the social distancing was excellent, the biggest concern I saw was people queuing to get into pubs didn’t look good at all.
		
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Cool. I wasn't suggesting you might have been looking for fisty or fruity action, by the way. 😎
My old man and his pal are enjoying getting back out to some of those country pubs from Epperstone out towards the Trent for a meal and a pint. Says they're really quiet.


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## larmen (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For the people that appear to be desperate for all restrictions to be removed in 7 days time - can someone list me what it is that it will allow them to do that they can’t now or is it more about personal freedom of just being allowed to do whatever they want

Someone at the club yesterday was ranting about the restrictions needing to end ASAP - his reason “sick of having to book a tee time”
		
Click to expand...

I guess for most people it is about the principle?

What I hear is about holidays, but other countries have as much to say it as we do, don’t they?


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## theoneandonly (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For the people that appear to be desperate for all restrictions to be removed in 7 days time - can someone list me what it is that it will allow them to do that they can’t now or is it more about personal freedom of just being allowed to do whatever they want

Someone at the club yesterday was ranting about the restrictions needing to end ASAP - his reason “sick of having to book a tee time”
		
Click to expand...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/covid-19-coronavirus-restrictions-what-you-can-and-cannot-do


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For the people that appear to be desperate for all restrictions to be removed in 7 days time - can someone list me what it is that it will allow them to do that they can’t now or is it more about personal freedom of just being allowed to do whatever they want

Someone at the club yesterday was ranting about the restrictions needing to end ASAP - his reason “sick of having to book a tee time”
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand any of that nonsense, but I feel for the people whose careers and incomes have been on hold for 18 months. As much as I'm in favour of caution and enjoy commuting on a half empty train, I can see why they might be keen for normality to resume.


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57464097

I think the graph is focusing on the wave of infections 👍
		
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I am talking about.
That graph shows the infection rate similar to the start of February when around 10m had been vaccinated.
Today, over 40m have been vaccinated.
There's no way there will be that many infections


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm sorry, that wasn't meant to be just aimed at you.
Like many people, I have been watching the figures every day since they became available and I've tried to fact check everything I read and post. It's just annoying when the media spout misleading rubbish and Joe public swallow it hook line and sinker and repeat it willy nilly.
I understand that cases have increased recently but ''there are suggestions those admitted now are not as sick as those admitted last year. Patients appear to be younger and fitter and not needing as much treatment''.*
I guess it depends if the PM will take any notice of those suggestions.

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57417802

Click to expand...

Well, it should be obvious that hospitalised patients are younger than they were, as vaccination has worked down through the older age groups, and also that they are fitter and do better. In a way, that is not the issue. The issue is that the grumbling rates of infection, currently in fitter, younger people, increases the potential to turn into something nastier if a variant emerges, and it is probably really only a matter of time, which will affect older people.

Also, don't dismiss the non-fatal or non-ICU effects of Covid - long Covid and subclinical medium term organ damage are going to be a persisting problem. Good evidence that Covid causes kidney, liver, heart and brain effects which could be storing up a serious problem for the next few years.


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Also, don't dismiss the non-fatal or non-ICU effects of Covid - long Covid and subclinical medium term organ damage are going to be a persisting problem. Good evidence that Covid causes kidney, liver, heart and brain effects which could be storing up a serious problem for the next few years.
		
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Does the ''good evidence'' tell us if long covid will affect the young and strong as much much as the old and frail?


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## The Dog. (Jun 14, 2021)

I cannot understand what is happening in this country.   America has ditched social distancing and masks and life is back to normal.  135000 people at the Indy 500 this month.  Normal life has returned and the bodies of dead are not piling up in the streets.  Our vaccine program is miles ahead of theirs yet we are still living with restrictions imposed by a small group of highly influential, risk averse medics and politicians.   There is no case for these restrictions any longer and there hasn't been for some time. 

I hope that my fellow Brits will start to stand up to this control freakery as of next Monday and ditch masks as a first step - all you have to say to anyone is that you are exempt.    The country needs normality. The real health crisis is going to hit home very soon when the tsunami sized backlog of medical emergencies hits the NHS. Over 50,000 women walking around with undiagnosed breast cancer being a tiny tip of this particular iceberg.  

Let's get on with it and for those who are still blinded by government induced fear and terrified to push back on this tyranny, go and hide behind the sofa until your masters say you're allowed out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			I don't understand any of that nonsense, but I feel for the people whose careers and incomes have been on hold for 18 months. As much as I'm in favour of caution and enjoy commuting on a half empty train, I can see why they might be keen for normality to resume.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but what’s “nonsense” - it was a simple question 

Some people appear to want the restrictions to end ASAP regardless of the situation and I just asked the question in regards what is it that they can’t do now because of restrictions that they really need to do or is it more about freedom


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I cannot understand what is happening in this country.   America has ditched social distancing and masks and life is back to normal.  135000 people at the Indy 500 this month.  Normal life has returned and the bodies of dead are not piling up in the streets.  Our vaccine program is miles ahead of theirs yet we are still living with restrictions imposed by a small group of highly influential, risk averse medics and politicians.   There is no case for these restrictions any longer and there hasn't been for some time.

I hope that my fellow Brits will start to stand up to this control freakery as of next Monday and ditch masks as a first step - all you have to say to anyone is that you are exempt.    The country needs normality. The real health crisis is going to hit home very soon when the tsunami sized backlog of medical emergencies hits the NHS. Over 50,000 women walking around with undiagnosed breast cancer being a tiny tip of this particular iceberg. 

Let's get on with it and for those who are still blinded by government induced fear and terrified to push back on this tyranny, go and hide behind the sofa until your masters say you're allowed out.
		
Click to expand...

What an extremist load of old 💩.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 14, 2021)

Just possibly the US doesn’t have the Delta variant in the same quantities that we do. 

I think what you are suggesting is dangerous and wrong. I hear what you say re NHS lists and this need to be tackled urgently, but they won’t be able to start if the hospitals fill up with Covid patients.


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what’s “nonsense” - it was a simple question

Some people appear to want the restrictions to end ASAP regardless of the situation and I just asked the question in regards what is it that they can’t do now because of restrictions that they really need to do or is it more about freedom
		
Click to expand...

This bit...
*Someone at the club yesterday was ranting about the restrictions needing to end ASAP - his reason “sick of having to book a tee time”*
I was agreeing with you. Apologies - reading it back I can see how easily it could be misinterpreted.


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## road2ruin (Jun 14, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			There’s a graph on the BBC news site showing what is predicted on June 21st, should we continue as per normal. It does not make good reading esp when you see where we were on May 16th
		
Click to expand...

It's all modelling and rarely seems to have been right. Below is Sage's modelling for hospitalisations for the 11th June and they're not even close to reality....


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## road2ruin (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			For the people that appear to be desperate for all restrictions to be removed in 7 days time - can someone list me what it is that it will allow them to do that they can’t now or is it more about personal freedom of just being allowed to do whatever they want

Someone at the club yesterday was ranting about the restrictions needing to end ASAP - his reason “sick of having to book a tee time”
		
Click to expand...

Agree that the rant about booking a tee time is a nonsensical reason for restrictions to be lifted however there are entire industries that would be pretty desperate to reopen. It may not sound much but the 4 weeks delay is likely to cost the hospitality industry around £3bn, how many companies will survive that period?


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## The Dog. (Jun 14, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just possibly the US doesn’t have the Delta variant in the same quantities that we do.

I think what you are suggesting is dangerous and wrong. I hear what you say re NHS lists and this need to be tackled urgently, but they won’t be able to start if the hospitals fill up with Covid patients.
		
Click to expand...


Intensive care beds are at 2% occupancy. The vulnerable are vaccinated.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree that the rant about booking a tee time is a nonsensical reason for restrictions to be lifted however there are entire industries that would be pretty desperate to reopen. It may not sound much but the 4 weeks delay is likely to cost the hospitality industry around £3bn, how many companies will survive that period?
		
Click to expand...

How many are still getting furlough though ?   

Hotels , pubs , restaurants are open now as well 

I did hear the millionaire owner of 10 theatres complaining that he might have to sell a couple of his ten that he owns.


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## The Dog. (Jun 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			What an extremist load of old 💩.
		
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You're welcome to your opinion and it will be backed up by the voices in the echo chamber that this thread is.  However, pretty much everyone I know feels the same way and the public reaction next Monday will be interesting to see too. 

In 4 weeks time, something else will have cropped up to keep you shackled.  Or at best, you'll be let out until September before the Autumn bugs start up and another lockdown is imposed.


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## road2ruin (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many are still getting furlough though ?  

Hotels , pubs , restaurants are open now as well

I did hear the millionaire owner of 10 theatres complaining that he might have to sell a couple of his ten that he owns.
		
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They are open but on reduced capacity, they operate on very small margins so many are still barely breaking even.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what’s “nonsense” - it was a simple question 

Some people appear to want the restrictions to end ASAP regardless of the situation and I just asked the question in regards what is it that they can’t do now because of restrictions that they really need to do or is it more about freedom
		
Click to expand...

I just want to be able to take the flag out.

And some other less important things, like my kids getting back to normality at school.

Being able to go on a decent holiday, not having to clean every last surface before football with the kids, and worrying if the rest of my club are doing the same. Being able to go to a restaurant, the theatre, the cinema, the pub, the shops without restrictions and wearing stupid masks.
Not having to read and listen to people complaining about other people not wearing masks outside. 
A full menu retuning to McDonalds.

Not having to hear "because covid" as an excuse for someone not doing something they should have or generally being incompetent at work.

People being able to return to work. People getting treatment for illness other than Covid. 

I could go on. 

For many people the current restrictions will not change anything. Happy days for those people. But don't assume everyone is the same.


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Does the ''good evidence'' tell us if long covid will affect the young and strong as much much as the old and frail?
		
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The "good evidence" (quotation marks presumably a sign of disbelief) suggests that older unvaccinated are more likely to die or get long Covid, but with less of an age gradient, but the size of that vulnerable population is now small, so the number currently at risk is also small. The young are currently the risk group and few of them will die but other complications are a concern.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They are open but on reduced capacity, they operate on very small margins so many are still barely breaking even.
		
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But they are still open and getting people through the doors



BiMGuy said:



			I just want to be able to take the flag out.

And some other less important things, like my kids getting back to normality at school.

Being able to go on a decent holiday, not having to clean every last surface before football with the kids, and worrying if the rest of my club are doing the same. Being able to go to a restaurant, the theatre, the cinema, the pub, the shops without restrictions and wearing stupid masks.
Not having to read and listen to people complaining about other people not wearing masks outside.
A full menu retuning to McDonalds.

Not having to hear "because covid" as an excuse for someone not doing something they should have or generally being incompetent at work.

People being able to return to work. People getting treatment for illness other than Covid.

I could go on.

For many people the current restrictions will not change anything. Happy days for those people. But don't assume everyone is the same.
		
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So nothing that can’t wait for 4 weeks then 

And as for masks - they will be around a lot longer 

Holidays - all depends on the other country , how about holiday in the UK


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## Kellfire (Jun 14, 2021)

Confirmed as a four week extension. Sensible.


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			You're welcome to your opinion and it will be backed up by the voices in the echo chamber that this thread is.  However, pretty much everyone I know feels the same way and the public reaction next Monday will be interesting to see too.

In 4 weeks time, something else will have cropped up to keep you shackled.  Or at best, you'll be let out until September before the Autumn bugs start up and another lockdown is imposed.
		
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You're suggesting that people should fake exemption en masse to avoid the tyranny of being required to wear a face mask in the supermarket and on the train. What can that possibly achieve?
More British civilians have died of COVID in the last 12 months than were killed in WW2.
I believe that the government and its advisors have a better understanding of the damage that lockdown restrictions are doing to the economy than those in your own echo chamber.
I don't believe any reasonable person would think the endgame is some kind of dystopian control of the masses.


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## road2ruin (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But they are still open and getting people through the doors
		
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And in many cases still making a loss due to the SD restrictions.

Plus there are other industries that are either still being forced to close or it's just not worth them opening with the present restrictions in place.

Just because you are lucky enough to be in a position (which to be fair I'm in to) that an additional 4 weeks won't make a difference I think your attitude is pretty flippant to assume that everyone else will also be fine.


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The "good evidence" (*quotation marks presumably a sign of disbelief*) suggests that older unvaccinated are more likely to die or get long Covid, but with less of an age gradient, but the size of that vulnerable population is now small, so the number currently at risk is also small. The young are currently the risk group and few of them will die but other complications are a concern.
		
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You presumed wrongly, it was a genuine question to which I didn't understand the answer.
It was a simple yes or no question.
If long covid wont affect the young and strong, then those being hospitalised with less severe symptoms than last year, shouldn't affect the decision to open up next week.


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## The Dog. (Jun 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			You're suggesting that people should fake exemption en masse to avoid the tyranny of being required to wear a face mask in the supermarket and on the train. What can that possibly achieve?
More British civilians have died of COVID in the last 12 months than were killed in WW2.
I believe that the government and its advisors have a better understanding of the damage that lockdown restrictions are doing to the economy than those in your own echo chamber.
I don't believe any reasonable person would think the endgame is some kind of dystopian control of the masses.
		
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They have died with it, not of it. 

Where you and I differ is when you say "I believe the government...."  I don't.  That doesn't mean I wear a tinfoil hat, it is purely that I think they are second rate people and have lied consistently for nearly two years. 

Three weeks to flatten the curve anyone?  March 2019.


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You presumed wrongly, it was a genuine question to which I didn't understand the answer.
It was a simple yes or no question.
If long covid wont affect the young and strong, then those being hospitalised with less severe symptoms than last year, shouldn't affect the decision to open up next week.
		
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Long Covid certainly affects the young.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But they are still open and getting people through the doors



So nothing that can’t wait for 4 weeks then 

And as for masks - they will be around a lot longer 

Holidays - all depends on the other country , how about holiday in the UK
		
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How many times are we going to have to wait another 4 weeks?

There is nothing quite so permanent as a Government temporary measure!

We go on holiday in the UK every year, it's not the same as a decent holiday abroad.

My main concern is the health and well-being of the younger generations. My football club has lost a couple of teams due to losing players that didn't come back after lockdown. This is the same for a lot of our local team too.
And then there is the impact on the quality of education many children have received. Which appears to be having a greater impact on the less well off and more vulnerable children.

Graduates and apprentices are suffering from a lack of opportunity and training in the workplace. 

But I suspect many of these issues are of little concern to many on here.


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

The Dog. said:



*They have died with it, not of it.*

Where you and I differ is when you say "I believe the government...."  I don't.  That doesn't mean I wear a tinfoil hat, it is purely that I think they are second rate people and have lied consistently for nearly two years.

Three weeks to flatten the curve anyone?  March 2019.
		
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That is untrue. There have probably been deaths of people with Covid who didn't die from Covid, but not many. There have also been deaths of people from Covid which were not recorded as such. 

I agree on the Govt, generally, but that doesn't mean Covid isn't real. I would argue we needed faster and firmer lockdown, and border closures, and if we had that, we'd be in a better place now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			June 11...8,125 new cases ..... 17 deaths
June 12...7,738 new cases.......12 deaths
June 13...7,490 new cases.......8 deaths

Dam these daily increases.
		
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Infections...the graph I saw showed that a levelling off of infections is what is being sought by an extension. And it is *that* that I don’t see how a continuation of current measures will provide, unless the hope is that increased level of vaccination across us all will just in itself level off the spread of the delta variant in particular.

But now that I am fully vaccinated surely reducing my likelihood of passing on the virus is but a secondary effect - a possible benefit in addition to protecting me from illness.  But the vaccination doesn’t stop me picking up the virus and I can still pass it on.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But they are still open and getting people through the doors
		
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Being open doesn't mean making a profit. Being open doesn't mean even breaking even. It doesn't pay back the loans they have had to take out to keep afloat. That is a really poor statement and unfeeling for those in those circumstances.


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			They have died with it, not of it.

Where you and I differ is when you say "I believe the government...."  I don't.  That doesn't mean I wear a tinfoil hat, it is purely that I think *they are second rate people and have lied consistently* for nearly two years.

Three weeks to flatten the curve anyone?  March 2019.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that's the skill set generally required to be a successful administrator.
Not many normal, rational, decent people would want to do it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I wonder why infections are rising.
		
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And as a result I wonder what it is about continuing current measures that will result in a levelling off of the *number* daily infections i.e. reduce the infection *rate* to almost zero.

Numbers of infections are increasing daily...and if you don’t *change *something about the control measures in place then nothing will change about the rate of increase in the number of infections and so there is nothing to level off the daily new numbers.  The logic around continuing the current measures for 4 weeks to reduce infections is completely escaping me - *unless *all our eggs are in the vaccination basket...somehow.


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## The Dog. (Jun 14, 2021)

The recent study into the decoupling of cases and hospitalisations / deaths by Professor Philip Thomas at Bristol university is well worth a read. Link here - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-third-wave-its-here-but-it-shouldnt-delay-our-reopening 

If it is behind a paywall then here is a quote to give an overview: 

Philip Thomas, professor of risk management at Bristol university, attempted to unpick how damaging this wave of the virus would be, with or without a delay to the restrictions. His argument, based on a model which has been successfully tracking the pandemic in Britain, is that cases and hospitalisations and deaths are now very seriously de-coupled, and this should have prevented the NHS from collapsing. He predicted that if restrictions were lifted:
“‘We ought to brace ourselves for a surge of infections, one that has started already and may be greater than the wave seen in January. But crucially, the NHS should not come close to being overwhelmed. Cases will be mainly among the young, who are far less likely to get seriously sick — so daily deaths will run at a quarter of what they once did, before subsiding. There is no point delaying reopening, because a landmark has been reached: Covid-19 has been downgraded into a nasty bug which is now no more lethal than viruses such as influenza. My model points to about 7,000 more deaths to come. A daunting figure, yes, but about a third less than in a typical flu season.’​And he pointed to the lack of hospitalisations in Bolton – which was the first area to be seriously hit by the Indian variant – as proof that now a huge proportion of people have been vaccinated, the rest of the country can cope with a greater number of cases:
“‘Take Bolton. Its third wave, which happened last month, saw the number of confirmed Covid cases surge back to where it was in January. But crucially, teenagers and children accounted for about half of these infections. The over-sixties (those most likely to get ill) accounted for just 3.5 per cent of them. It is too early to speak with any finality about deaths from Bolton’s third wave, but the number of Covid patients in hospital did not get above a third of the January peak. So Bolton offers a useful guide to what we can expect in Britain’s third wave: a significant number of cases, but mainly among the young, who mostly will emerge unscathed.’​


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			How many times are we going to have to wait another 4 weeks?

There is nothing quite so permanent as a Government temporary measure!

We go on holiday in the UK every year, it's not the same as a decent holiday abroad.

My main concern is the health and well-being of the younger generations. My football club has lost a couple of teams due to losing players that didn't come back after lockdown. This is the same for a lot of our local team too.
And then there is the impact on the quality of education many children have received. Which appears to be having a greater impact on the less well off and more vulnerable children.

Graduates and apprentices are suffering from a lack of opportunity and training in the workplace.

But I suspect many of these issues are of little concern to many on here.
		
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It will take as many four weeks as needed to ensure we have beaten the virus as best as we can - we need to learn from mistake made previously- it’s better to be cautious than rash and risk losing more lives -which is more important - it’s been 6 months or more for some - 4 weeks more might well be worth it as opposed to another lockdown later

In regards Social Distancing and Masks - they are i believe seperate to the current restrictions so weren’t going to change anyway 



Lord Tyrion said:



			Being open doesn't mean making a profit. Being open doesn't mean even breaking even. It doesn't pay back the loans they have had to take out to keep afloat. That is a really poor statement and unfeeling for those in those circumstances.
		
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And is their not financial help for those business available right now. This virus is still going on , people are still suffering because of the virus

Everyone is making sacrifices for the greater good - we nearly there it all away last year - let’s not do the same again


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## bobmac (Jun 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Infections...the graph I saw showed that a levelling off of infections is what is being sought by an extension. And it is *that* that I don’t see how a continuation of current measures will provide, unless the hope is that increased level of vaccination across us all will just in itself level off the spread of the delta variant in particular.
		
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You clearly said 
*''the current daily increase in infections''* 

I was pointing out the current daily number of infections has in fact decreased over the last 3 days and it is my hope that the 8,125 was the peak of what's being dubbed as the 'third wave' and if the majority of those cases aren't hospitalised then that's good news, wouldn't you agree?


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			The recent study into the decoupling of cases and hospitalisations / deaths by Professor Philip Thomas at Bristol university is well worth a read. Link here - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-third-wave-its-here-but-it-shouldnt-delay-our-reopening 

If it is behind a paywall then here is a quote to give an overview:

Philip Thomas, professor of risk management at Bristol university, attempted to unpick how damaging this wave of the virus would be, with or without a delay to the restrictions. His argument, based on a model which has been successfully tracking the pandemic in Britain, is that cases and hospitalisations and deaths are now very seriously de-coupled, and this should have prevented the NHS from collapsing. He predicted that if restrictions were lifted:
“‘We ought to brace ourselves for a surge of infections, one that has started already and may be greater than the wave seen in January. But crucially, the NHS should not come close to being overwhelmed. Cases will be mainly among the young, who are far less likely to get seriously sick — so daily deaths will run at a quarter of what they once did, before subsiding. There is no point delaying reopening, because a landmark has been reached: Covid-19 has been downgraded into a nasty bug which is now no more lethal than viruses such as influenza. My model points to about 7,000 more deaths to come. A daunting figure, yes, but about a third less than in a typical flu season.’​And he pointed to the lack of hospitalisations in Bolton – which was the first area to be seriously hit by the Indian variant – as proof that now a huge proportion of people have been vaccinated, the rest of the country can cope with a greater number of cases:
“‘Take Bolton. Its third wave, which happened last month, saw the number of confirmed Covid cases surge back to where it was in January. But crucially, teenagers and children accounted for about half of these infections. The over-sixties (those most likely to get ill) accounted for just 3.5 per cent of them. It is too early to speak with any finality about deaths from Bolton’s third wave, but the number of Covid patients in hospital did not get above a third of the January peak. So Bolton offers a useful guide to what we can expect in Britain’s third wave: a significant number of cases, but mainly among the young, who mostly will emerge unscathed.’​

Click to expand...

Flu, flu, flu, and counting only deaths - the hallmarks of the Covid-denier. This guy is in the Civil Engineering Dept - he should go and build a bridge instead.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And is their not financial help for those business available right now. This virus is still going on , people are still suffering because of the virus

Everyone is making sacrifices for the greater good - we nearly there it all away last year - let’s not do the same again
		
Click to expand...

Loans, more loans? Why not bury perfectly good companies under a mountain of debt. They are not being given money, they will have to pay it back at some point. They were given small grants at one point but that money will be long gone.

Everyone is making sacrifices, blimey that is right. Pubs, restaurants, cafes, theatres, music venues, wedding related industries, hotels, talk to them about sacrifices. Some are making more than others and to brush that off so glibly is staggering. I'm not in any of those industries but I am aware what a hit they are taking, the stress it will be causing.


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## RichA (Jun 14, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			The recent study into the decoupling of cases and hospitalisations / deaths by Professor Philip Thomas at Bristol university is well worth a read. Link here - https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-third-wave-its-here-but-it-shouldnt-delay-our-reopening 

If it is behind a paywall then here is a quote to give an overview:

Philip Thomas, professor of risk management at Bristol university, attempted to unpick how damaging this wave of the virus would be, with or without a delay to the restrictions. His argument, based on a model which has been successfully tracking the pandemic in Britain, is that cases and hospitalisations and deaths are now very seriously de-coupled, and this should have prevented the NHS from collapsing. He predicted that if restrictions were lifted:
“‘We ought to brace ourselves for a surge of infections, one that has started already and may be greater than the wave seen in January. But crucially, the NHS should not come close to being overwhelmed. Cases will be mainly among the young, who are far less likely to get seriously sick — so daily deaths will run at a quarter of what they once did, before subsiding. There is no point delaying reopening, because a landmark has been reached: Covid-19 has been downgraded into a nasty bug which is now no more lethal than viruses such as influenza. My model points to about 7,000 more deaths to come. A daunting figure, yes, but about a third less than in a typical flu season.’​And he pointed to the lack of hospitalisations in Bolton – which was the first area to be seriously hit by the Indian variant – as proof that now a huge proportion of people have been vaccinated, the rest of the country can cope with a greater number of cases:
“‘Take Bolton. Its third wave, which happened last month, saw the number of confirmed Covid cases surge back to where it was in January. But crucially, teenagers and children accounted for about half of these infections. The over-sixties (those most likely to get ill) accounted for just 3.5 per cent of them. It is too early to speak with any finality about deaths from Bolton’s third wave, but the number of Covid patients in hospital did not get above a third of the January peak. So Bolton offers a useful guide to what we can expect in Britain’s third wave: a significant number of cases, but mainly among the young, who mostly will emerge unscathed.’​

Click to expand...

Not knocking The Spectator, but it makes no bones about its articles being paid opinion pieces, rather than factual reporting of news. To its credit, that acknowledgement sets it apart from most "news" sources that do pretend to be reporting only facts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You clearly said
*''the current daily increase in infections''*

I was pointing out the current daily number of infections has in fact decreased over the last 3 days and it is my hope that the 8,125 was the peak of what's being dubbed as the 'third wave' and if the majority of those cases aren't hospitalised then that's good news, wouldn't you agree?
		
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Sorry but the report I heard, and the graph I saw, indicated to me that if things continue as they are then the daily number of infections will reach 16,000 by the end of the month.  I may have misunderstood.  But if something is going wrong for me and I don’t actually change anything I am doing, then it’ll keep going wrong - and that’s my confusion.

thinks - maybe what I heard was on the basis of ‘what-if’ we relax all restrictions on the 21st.


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## road2ruin (Jun 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Loans, more loans? Why not bury perfectly good companies under a mountain of debt. They are not being given money, they will have to pay it back at some point. They were given small grants at one point but that money will be long gone.

Everyone is making sacrifices, blimey that is right. Pubs, restaurants, cafes, theatres, music venues, wedding related industries, hotels, talk to them about sacrifices. Some are making more than others and to brush that off so glibly is staggering. I'm not in any of those industries but I am aware what a hit they are taking, the stress it will be causing.
		
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There are also the large costs that these companies incur when reopening. It's not a case of June 21st comes round and they open their doors and are ready to go, most will have spent the last weeks getting ready for the 21st and will have brought in stock in readiness. This will have now been wasted and in 4 weeks time what is to say that there isn't more prep done only to be told that SAGE are keen to keep things locked up for 'just' another 4 weeks etc etc. The financial support goes no where near covering all of the costs for most of these businesses and, as pointed out, loading themselves up with debt is not a great alternative.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Loans, more loans? Why not bury perfectly good companies under a mountain of debt. They are not being given money, they will have to pay it back at some point. They were given small grants at one point but that money will be long gone.

Everyone is making sacrifices, blimey that is right. Pubs, restaurants, cafes, theatres, music venues, wedding related industries, hotels, talk to them about sacrifices. Some are making more than others and to brush that off so glibly is staggering. I'm not in any of those industries but I am aware what a hit they are taking, the stress it will be causing.
		
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Many retired and reasonably well of people have no idea of the impact this last 15 months has had on many people. Not just businesses, but grassroots sports clubs, cubs/scouts and other groups are all struggling to retain volunteers and with their finances.  

But what's another month 🤷‍♂️


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

The whole pandemic has been hard on many peoples businesses and work - some have lost their jobs and businesses and some have managed to create one - the government have tried to help as best as they can - grants , furlough , loans and rates reliefs - it’s very unfortunate for some 

But then thousands have lost their lives , thousands have lost loved ones , thousands have lost friends 

So whilst im sorry that someone can’t go watch a film or a concert or have a meal without having to wear a mask or they can have their pub full to the brim or someone can’t fly off to sit on a beach in Spain or that people like O Leary are losing money from his billions but none of that overrides the fact people have lost their lives through this and people still continue to be affected by the virus on a daily basis 

Through out the whole pandemic I see many people go above and beyond to find a way to make their business work and they are now reaping those rewards for their hard work - I have also seen some do nothing but take government furlough and hand outs and be happy with that 

There a many people out there suffering - last year it was decided to open up quickly to ease the areas of for example hospitality and we all saw the consequences of that through the winter whilst more lost their lives 

If the powers to be have seen the rise of infections and want to delay by another 4 weeks then that’s the choice we go by - it was stated in the roadmap that non of the dates were fixed , there was always a chance that dates would move - that was very clear from the start so people shouldn’t be surprised or angry that a delay has been put in place.


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## GB72 (Jun 14, 2021)

Interesting point on BBC news this morning that part of the issue is that the symptoms of the Delta variant are different to previous variants, sore through, running nose etc, more akin to a cold than previous variants. That was news to me and fully understandable that symptoms like those, if not known about, could easily be passed off as hay fever or similar. If this is the case, and may @Ethan can clarify, this needs to be publicised far more. Last week I had a sniffle. If I had known that could be symptom, I would have taken a test as we have them in the house.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2021)

If an extension to current restrictions is announced today I am expecting someone to explain why this has come to pass, and accept responsibility for the delta variant getting into the country and spreading as it has - causing the pain and hurt to many individuals and businesses that the extension will result in.  I’m not seeing or hearing much about the delta variant causing the issues we are having in the US, rest of Europe and Scandinavia.

This moving of ’Freedom Day’ should have been unlikely and need not have happened had the delta variant been managed in accordance with the lessons that should have been learnt over the previous year.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 14, 2021)

What is this great 'Opening Up' that some are so hungry for.  This is a World Pandemic and taking narrow views like what the infection rate is in Chipping Sodbury and how many people have been vaccinated in Morton in the Marsh is not going to make it all go away and become 'Back to Normal'

💩 Happens and we need to face up to the fact that things like Holidays abroad and a life without Covid restrictions isn't anywhere on the horizon yet, even if we try removing them it's only going to be a temporary interlude.   At the moment all we can reasonably do is mitigate risk as best we can and make the best of the freedoms available to us.

All my opinion of course and other opinions are freely available.


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## Orikoru (Jun 14, 2021)

Why are people obsessing over this date? What is there left to open still? Can't we pretty much do most things already?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 14, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why are people obsessing over this date? What is there left to open still? Can't we pretty much do most things already?
		
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Whilst I agree I'd like to see confirmed how many spectators the open can have this year 

Mainly because I've got tickets rolled over from last year 😂


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## BiMGuy (Jun 14, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			Why are people obsessing over this date? What is there left to open still? Can't we pretty much do most things already?
		
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Like I said earlier. For a great many people, the current restrictions will feel like life as normal. For lots of other people it's a long way from being normal.

We all need to try and see things from other people's perspective. I don't mind admitting it's not always easy to do.


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## Orikoru (Jun 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Like I said earlier. For a great many people, the current restrictions will feel like life as normal. For lots of other people it's a long way from being normal.

We all need to try and see things from other people's perspective. I don't mind admitting it's not always easy to do.
		
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I wasn't being flippant, I genuinely don't know what things people are waiting for. Other than maybe holiday travel etc.


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Interesting point on BBC news this morning that part of the issue is that the symptoms of the Delta variant are different to previous variants, sore through, running nose etc, more akin to a cold than previous variants. That was news to me and fully understandable that symptoms like those, if not known about, could easily be passed off as hay fever or similar. If this is the case, and may @Ethan can clarify, this needs to be publicised far more. Last week I had a sniffle. If I had known that could be symptom, I would have taken a test as we have them in the house.
		
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Yes, it does seem to have a slightly different presentation to the earlier versions of Covid. We can expect more of the same variability with future variants.


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## GB72 (Jun 14, 2021)

In the main I agree, I can do most things how I want to. Groups of 10 indoors would be easier than 6, both for the pub and myself, it would be better if you could go to the bar and order a drink but that is about it. Masks in shops, at work etc ha become second nature and I suspect I would think twice about going to a club or similar even after relaxation, not sure that I can think of a more perfect environment for spreading this thing. 

As throughout, people are simply arguing their own corner. Those who are still shut are arguing to be open, those less affected are arguing for things to be shut. It is as it always was. One issue is that neither side is actually being asked to comment on the points raised by the other, having 2 inflammatory views run unquestioned suits the current media. 

My only criticism would be that this date has never been certain and there has been an element of doubt since the arrival of the delta variant. As such more fool those who rushed ahead treating this date as gospel.


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## drdel (Jun 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Like I said earlier. For a great many people, the current restrictions will feel like life as normal. For lots of other people it's a long way from being normal.

We all need to try and see things from other people's perspective. I don't mind admitting it's not always easy to do.
		
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While we whinge about a delay in the UK we might just be thankful we don’t live in India,  Africa etc!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 14, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I wasn't being flippant, I genuinely don't know what things people are waiting for. Other than maybe holiday travel etc.
		
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Theatre, live music, music festivals, parkruns, any gathering frankly, weddings with no limits on guests, pubs, cafes, restaurants to allow more people inside, shops not to have number limitations on them, no limits on who can come inside your house (how many people know that the max is still 6 people or unlimited if 2 households?). This is top of my head stuff


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## GB72 (Jun 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, it does seem to have a slightly different presentation to the earlier versions of Covid. We can expect more of the same variability with future variants.
		
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This should be all over the front pages. I can honestly say that a couple of days last week, if I had known, I would have tested but cold symptoms were not something to watch out for. Worries me that I then went about my business none the wiser.


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## Whereditgo (Jun 14, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I wasn't being flippant, I genuinely don't know what things people are waiting for. Other than maybe holiday travel etc.
		
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As has been pointed out several times in this thread, there are many businesses that cannot survive for much longer with the current restrictions in place. Their business model will have been centred around footfall etc. With their customer numbers restricted these vulnerable business will not survive indefinitely. The failure of those businesses will likely impact people who are currently Furloughed.

Whilst the impact of this pandemic has been horrific for those families that have lost loved ones, I fear that economically the legacy of the last 18 months will last a long time.


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## IainP (Jun 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This should be all over the front pages. I can honestly say that a couple of days last week, if I had known, I would have tested but cold symptoms were not something to watch out for. Worries me that I then went about my business none the wiser.
		
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Not quite front page,  & pretty recent 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57467051


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If an extension to current restrictions is announced today I am expecting someone to explain why this has come to pass, and accept responsibility for the delta variant getting into the country and spreading as it has - causing the pain and hurt to many individuals and businesses that the extension will result in. * I’m not seeing or hearing much about the delta variant causing the issues we are having in the US, rest of Europe and Scandinavia.*

This moving of ’Freedom Day’ should have been unlikely and need not have happened had the delta variant been managed in accordance with the lessons that should have been learnt over the previous year.
		
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Possibly because we have a much larger Indian population than any other country in Europe and therefore had more people travelling from India to the UK carrying that variant.




Haven't seen the figures but I wonder if that's why places such as Saudi and UAE are on the red list for travel as they also have large Indian population.


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## DanFST (Jun 14, 2021)

A large chunk of the US is open as normal and have been for a while. Weekly Cases and positivity are still dropping. We have a larger percentage of the population with at least 1 jab. A larger amount fully vaccinated. 

Why are we different?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 14, 2021)

We must remember it’s not just those business’s themselves which can’t open but the smaller buisness’s that support them.

Mate owns a small cafe in Sunderland and he is struggling despite being open, why is he struggling? The amount of workers still working from home that would use him during their working day and football supporters, he does his best business when Sunderland play at home.

If the next few months he doesn’t see a return to some sort of normality he fears his cafe will be lost after 20+ years.


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## GB72 (Jun 14, 2021)

IainP said:



			Not quite front page,  & pretty recent
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57467051

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that is where I saw it for the first time. Also would add that, whilst throughout there have been new symptoms added, this is the first time I have seen it presenting in a totally different way and I did not know that was possible.


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

DanFST said:



			A large chunk of the US is open as normal and have been for a while. Weekly Cases and positivity are still dropping. We have a larger percentage of the population with at least 1 jab. A larger amount fully vaccinated.

Why are we different?
		
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The US is a big place with some quite empty spaces. Some regions had lots of cases and deaths. They have less of the delta variant. So far. Their vax programme is pretty good, and is having an effect.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			We must remember it’s not just those business’s themselves which can’t open but the smaller buisness’s that support them.

Mate owns a small cafe in Sunderland and he is struggling despite being open, why is he struggling? The amount of workers still working from home that would use him during their working day and football supporters, he does his best business when Sunderland play at home.

If the next few months he doesn’t see a return to some sort of normality he fears his cafe will be lost after 20+ years.
		
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This is what few think about. My mate and his wife lost their cafe business after the second lockdown, the viability of the business was dependant on footfall of workers and people out and about doing shopping etc. 

All of their money and 27 years of their lives ploughed in to try and make it work but it just wasn't possible. 

The resultant fall out from this has been severe and, sadly, tragic.


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## GB72 (Jun 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			This is what few think about. My mate and his wife lost their cafe business after the second lockdown, the viability of the business was dependant on footfall of workers and people out and about doing shopping etc.

All of their money and 27 years of their lives ploughed in to try and make it work but it just wasn't possible.

The resultant fall out from this has been severe and, sadly, tragic.
		
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That is sad and I suspect that the footfall of workers may not return, at least not in the same numbers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			This is what few think about. My mate and his wife lost their cafe business after the second lockdown, the viability of the business was dependant on footfall of workers and people out and about doing shopping etc.

All of their money and 27 years of their lives ploughed in to try and make it work but it just wasn't possible.

The resultant fall out from this has been severe and, sadly, tragic.
		
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It is awful to see businesses not getting through the pandemic and we then new “normal” the footfall at many of these areas will decrease because more will WFH

In Leighton we have had a new sports bar/burger joint open up and they are flying right now - couple of coffee shops have opened up but some clothes shops have closed ( more online )

My wife has worked at 50% pay for the past 12 months because of betting shops closed through the whole pandemic - many of those May not reopen


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## GB72 (Jun 14, 2021)

OK, just too many stories to no wind me up. Pretty constant stream of industries impacted by the delay stating how it will impact their business and how it is terrible. All well and good and understandable but can someone at least ask that opposing question about whether they really think that, at present, their activity of choice is advisable. Latest on the BBC stream is a wedding photographer saying that many will cancel again. A fair point and accepted but at least then ask whether he thinks it a good idea to have tens of people at weddings and receptions given the current circumstances.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 14, 2021)

RichA said:



			Cool. I wasn't suggesting you might have been looking for fisty or fruity action, by the way. 😎
My old man and his pal are enjoying getting back out to some of those country pubs from Epperstone out towards the Trent for a meal and a pint. Says they're really quiet.
		
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Ave a feeling country pubs may well be the future for Mr and Missis T 👍


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## larmen (Jun 14, 2021)

In an attempt to change my commute past COVID I have enrolled for a CBT. Turns out, so has everyone else. Next dates available at the end of July.


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## Imurg (Jun 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			In an attempt to change my commute past COVID I have enrolled for a CBT. Turns out, so has everyone else. Next dates available at the end of July.
		
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Good job you don't want a driving test....booking into December around here...


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## larmen (Jun 14, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Good job you don't want a driving test....booking into December around here...
		
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Is it fixed price or can you make up some of your losses?


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## Imurg (Jun 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			Is it fixed price or can you make up some of your losses?
		
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I haven't really lost out much, the Govt self employed scheme kept me afloat.
Its the kids that are getting screwed by it.
I've got kids who started when they turned 17, are not ready for test but they're off to Uni in September 
They have tests booked for November/December but they won't be able to keep up the practice unless they can find someone in their Uni town..


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## SaintHacker (Jun 14, 2021)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2...eive-exemption-run-full-capacity-freedom-day/

This is interesting,  and on a purely selfish note makes me feel a bit better about the extension


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2021)

Reflecting on the briefing I don’t know what is more depressing...the message; the lead presenter; or the shambolic performance.  It is utterly depressing and can’t be discussed and so I have to content myself with simply expressing how it has affected me.  I am depressed by it all and dismayed for my lad and for all of those who work in events and hospitality. Grim. And surely so unnecessary.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If an extension to current restrictions is announced today I am expecting someone to explain why this has come to pass, and accept responsibility for the delta variant getting into the country and spreading as it has - causing the pain and hurt to many individuals and businesses that the extension will result in.  I’m not seeing or hearing much about the delta variant causing the issues we are having in the US, rest of Europe and Scandinavia.

This moving of ’Freedom Day’ should have been unlikely and need not have happened had the delta variant been managed in accordance with the lessons that should have been learnt over the previous year.
		
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I think you are putting too much emphasis on the delta variant part of the problem. I believe that the infection levels would have been not to dissimilar had we had only the previous " variants" around.
This is my take on it.
The virus has spread because it has been given the opportunity, whether it is this variant or that. One being a bit more transmissible puts it in the forefront, yes, but when the last level of restrictions were eased, there were bound to be some increase in infections. Of whatever sorts of variants were around.These increases tried to get a hold over all the country, but SD measures and take up on vaccinations nipped it in the bud, and began to defeat it
In the northwest it was reported there was less SD and certainly less vaccinations being taken up, so the virus got a grip there.
Previously,we had scares about the Kent, Brazilian, South African variants but they were sorted by SD and vaccinations, as I believe the Delta one is being.
What is needed in the next 4 weeks is an increase in vaccination take up in the higher infected areas and more SD behaviour.
If that doesn't happen I don't see us being any further forward towards nil restrictions.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reflecting on the briefing I don’t know what is more depressing...the message; the lead presenter; or the shambolic performance.  It is utterly depressing and can’t be discussed and so I have to content myself with simply expressing how it has affected me.  I am depressed by it all and dismayed for my lad and for all of those who work in events and hospitality. Grim. *And surely so unnecessary.*

Click to expand...

Where you not recently bemoaning about the increase in cases 🤷‍♂️ So surely you can understand that why it’s deemed necessary to continue with restrictions currently. 

And right now if your lad needs work there are lots of jobs in hospitality currently


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## fundy (Jun 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2...eive-exemption-run-full-capacity-freedom-day/

This is interesting,  and on a purely selfish note makes me feel a bit better about the extension
		
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is it just me or is this just complete BS? as a sports fan i think its great for sport and a lot of events but basically if youre running a big sport event that people want to watch, we'll call it a pilot event and you can let a decent crowd in, but otherwise everything can wait another 4 weeks (at least)


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## SaintHacker (Jun 14, 2021)

fundy said:



			is it just me or is this just complete BS? as a sports fan i think its great for sport and a lot of events but basically if youre running a big sport event that people want to watch, we'll call it a pilot event and you can let a decent crowd in, but otherwise everything can wait another 4 weeks (at least)
		
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No idea. I guess sooner or later they need to run an event of that size. The GP is probably ideal, Silverstone is massive, its all outdoors, none of the grandstands are stadium bowls so far more ventilation than a stadium, and the majority of people travel by car so no problems with people cramming on public transport. And possibly a good way to also try out a vaccine/negative test passport type thing?


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## fundy (Jun 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No idea. I guess sooner or later they need to run an event of that size. The GP is probably ideal, Silverstone is massive, its all outdoors, none of the grandstands are stadium bowls so far more ventilation than a stadium, and the majority of people travel by car so no problems with people cramming on public transport. And possibly a good way to also try out a vaccine/negative test passport type thing?
		
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wasnt just meaning Silverstone, pretty much every decent sport event gonna have a sizeable crowd under the guise of being a test event compared to whats being allowed in a lot of other areas, from a selfish perspective suits me but seems a little inconsistent shall we say (even compared to say a golf club asking for proof of 2x vaccine for 2 people to share a buggy)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where you not recently bemoaning about the increase in cases 🤷‍♂️ So surely you can understand that why it’s deemed necessary to continue with restrictions currently.

And right now if your lad needs work there are lots of jobs in hospitality currently
		
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I am not bemoaning the action that has been taken though I am confused how not changing things will reduce the rate of infection other than by having all our eggs in the vaccine basket increased numbers vaccinated over the next four weeks may hopefully reduce increasing transmission - which I get.  What was surely unnecessary and what I was referring to was the fact that the delta variant has got into this country at the level it did to initiate this surge in infection.  THAT was surely avoidable and why the extension _should_ have been unnecessary.

And I’ll note that my lad does not need work (he has a job but government restrictions have closed that work down for the time being) and he is not complaining about the level of UC he is being provided with - though he notes that most in his situation whose job is currently closed by restrictions - are being furloughed at generally much greater cost to the taxpayer that those such as he not furloughed but having to claim UC. 

My lad has a job and it was due to restart on 21st June - however this extension has just simply cancelled work he had booked for last week of June and first three weeks of July.  This is work and income that is not recoverable.  It is gone. Meanwhile he is accepting of what he has and will struggle along as he is until his work and job can restart.  No need for another job meanwhile.


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## IainP (Jun 14, 2021)

Re the delta. It's worth keeping in mind, as we had a bit of a debate about it at the time - and without the benefit of hindsight.  The actual stats at the time didn't really back up certain courses of action. I think many of us had a _hunch _how things may progress but that's all it was. Action not based on stats are of course open to other challenges....


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## PNWokingham (Jun 14, 2021)

was with friends in pub earlier when news confirmed. Friend works for a small events company that hire lighting and many other things. They loaded an arctic yesterday that went out for a major contract - that will be on its way back tomorrow, 60k down the drain and further pressure to cut more jobs


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## Ethan (Jun 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			was with friends in pub earlier when news confirmed. Friend works for a small events company that hire lighting and many other things. They loaded an arctic yesterday that went out for a major contract - that will be on its way back tomorrow, 60k down the drain and further pressure to cut more jobs
		
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Bad for your mate. The delay was being heavily trailed for a few days. seems that is the way these announcements are done now, leak to favoured journos then public press event then tell Parliament. Talk of bringing the end date forward should be taken with a large pinch of salt, I think, but any further slippage would probably cause a revolution, because the August holiday window depends on it lifting no later than 19th July.


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## DanFST (Jun 15, 2021)

96 cases per week in my county of Suffolk. Over 90% of over 40's double vaccinated. 

Seems well worth adding misery to small business.


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## ExRabbit (Jun 15, 2021)

DanFST said:



			96 cases per week in my county of Suffolk. Over 90% of over 40's double vaccinated.

Seems well worth adding misery to small business.
		
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So do you think we should go back to local restrictions?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2021)

Restaurants and cafes in St Ives starting to close like dominos toppling due to staff testing positive.

One big issue they have is that staff shortages has found restaurants sharing staff - with what that risks.  Plus 6500 police from all over the UK, delegates and media from all over the world (all I am sure not having isolated for a week on their arrival in the UK) plus a absolutely rammed town over the half-term break.  

Ours for tomorrow night has just told us they have had to close, plus another two my daughter was booked in to later this week have also had to close.  Not good for Cornwall.


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## IainP (Jun 15, 2021)

Can't quite put my finger on it but having a strange sense of deja vu.... 😉😉
https://www.entertainmentdaily.co.u...laining-packed-beach-was-like-being-in-tesco/


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## BiMGuy (Jun 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Restaurants and cafes in St Ives starting to close like dominos toppling due to staff testing positive.

One big issue they have is that staff shortages has found restaurants sharing staff - with what that risks.  Plus 6500 police from all over the UK, delegates and media from all over the world (all I am sure not having isolated for a week on their arrival in the UK) plus a absolutely rammed town over the half-term break.  

Ours for tomorrow night has just told us they have had to close, plus another two my daughter was booked in to later this week have also had to close.  Not good for Cornwall.
		
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I was in St Ives a few weeks ago. Even with the terrible weather and it not being the school holidays it was rammed.
I dread to think how unbearable it must be in decent weather or the school summer holidays. 
It's one of the reasons I don't particularly like going on holiday in the UK. 

I'm sure the G7 stuff isn't helping much either.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I was in St Ives a few weeks ago. Even with the terrible weather and it not being the school holidays it was rammed.
I dread to think how unbearable it must be in decent weather or the school summer holidays.
It's one of the reasons I don't particularly like going on holiday in the UK.

I'm sure the G7 stuff isn't helping much either.
		
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The girl serving us in our restaurant (just outside St Ives town itself) this evening told us she had just moved there from working in St Ives as so many restaurants are getting hit at the moment...last she heard was yesterday and nine had had to close due to covid.  She had no difficulty getting the job where she is now and confirmed that St Ives restaurants are struggling getting the staff and so are sharing what they have.

What I wonder from this is what normal is for restaurants etc once the delta variant is endemic in the population - because without a lockdown current measures for the next four weeks are going to have limited impact on reducing transmission.   Places are going to be closing at no notice all the time to isolate staff and customers as they are doing at the moment unless the rules are changed around what happens if someone who has been in or works in a restaurant tests positive.

It’s joining to be unsustainable chaos and disaster for the sector.


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## DanFST (Jun 15, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			So do you think we should go back to local restrictions?
		
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Not as before. Identify problem areas and impose actual law to get the desired result. 

Weddings can have 200 people, and dancing is "strongly advised against". That's useless.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Not as before. Identify problem areas and impose actual law to get the desired result.

Weddings can have 200 people, and dancing is "strongly advised against". That's useless.
		
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So what laws and restrictions would you like.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 16, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57492264

Good news and I hope it will be implemented in other areas that are potentially public facing with vunerable people


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## DanFST (Jun 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			So what laws and restrictions would you like.
		
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I'm not a policy maker. 

There are 9 people in the whole of the East of England in hospital due to covid. (as of latest data). In Suffolk, Over 90% Of over 40's are double vacced.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57492264

Good news and I hope it will be implemented in other areas that are potentially public facing with vunerable people
		
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Unfortunately I guess it wont be long until some ambulance chasing lawyer comes along and proves a test case stipping employers from enforcing the requirement,  coz is againts their 'ooman rights, innit...🙄


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## bobmac (Jun 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Unfortunately I guess it wont be long until some ambulance chasing lawyer comes along and proves a test case stipping employers from enforcing the requirement,  coz is againts their 'ooman rights, innit...🙄
		
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It's a patients human right to be cared for by a care assistant that doesn't have a killer infectious virus


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## RichA (Jun 16, 2021)

Plenty of jobs require employees to meet certain health and fitness standards. I fail to see how this is any different.


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## Ethan (Jun 16, 2021)

RichA said:



			Plenty of jobs require employees to meet certain health and fitness standards. I fail to see how this is any different.
		
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I support vaccination, and have no great issue with it being mandatory for care homes or patient-facing NHS staff, but there are differences between vaccinating staff and ensuring a HGV driver doesn't have a heart problem. There are risks with the vaccine, and those may, for some workers, outweigh the risks of not having it. The NHS should try to do this with some grace and persuasion rather than threats. Lots of NHS staff feel, not unreasonably, they have been messed about a lot on everything from pay increases to PPE.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I support vaccination, and have no great issue with it being mandatory for care homes or patient-facing NHS staff, but there are differences between vaccinating staff and ensuring a HGV driver doesn't have a heart problem. There are risks with the vaccine, and those may, for some workers, outweigh the risks of not having it. The NHS should try to do this with some grace and persuasion rather than threats. Lots of NHS staff feel, not unreasonably, they have been messed about a lot on everything from pay increases to PPE.
		
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They have been trying to gently cajole but what do you do with those who flat out refuse. At some point there reaches a stage where gentle discussions are not enough and a line has to be drawn. I would expect medical exemptions to be taken into account incidentally.


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## Ethan (Jun 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			They have been trying to gently cajole but what do you do with those who flat out refuse. At some point there reaches a stage where gentle discussions are not enough and a line has to be drawn. I would expect medical exemptions to be taken into account incidentally.
		
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There are very very few genuine medical exemptions. I think the approach should be to respect the view and immediately move to a discussion on redeployment. "Don't want a vaccine? No problem. Have you any training in boiler maintenance?. OK, it isn't brain surgery, but what can we do?".


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm not a policy maker.

There are 9 people in the whole of the East of England in hospital due to covid. (as of latest data). In Suffolk, Over 90% Of over 40's are double vacced.
		
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Come on Dan, that's a bit of a cop out reply.  You suggested identifying the problem areas and imposing actual law.  You must have an idea what type of law should be imposed.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are very very few genuine medical exemptions. I think the approach should be to respect the view and immediately move to a discussion on redeployment. "Don't want a vaccine? No problem. Have you any training in boiler maintenance?. OK, it isn't brain surgery, but what can we do?".
		
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And if the reply is that they nothing about Boilers and only want to be a front line medic.


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## Ethan (Jun 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			And if the reply is that they nothing about Boilers and only want to be a front line medic.
		
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Front line medics need to be immune. A robust antibody response, updated at whatever interval is needed, would suffice. Otherwise, back room job.


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## bobmac (Jun 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Front line medics need to be immune. A robust antibody response, related at whatever interval is needed, would suffice. Otherwise, back room job.
		
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Maybe they could work down a person-hole cover.  (Connolly B. 2008)


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## SaintHacker (Jun 16, 2021)

Interesting programme on bbc2 right now about the different vaccines and how they've been made


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2021)

Speaking today with a couple of guys working in a pub in St Ives.  They are down to just the two of them (and will have to close if one of them gets covid’d) as the usual level of hospitality workers has just not come back...or has gone for good...many are not interested in coming back into bar and restaurant work and certainly not interested in hospitality work in the current environment where places can be closed at a moments notice.  Their view is that pubs and restaurants are indeed closing like dominos toppling and that it’s quite possible that most if not all in St Ives will be closed in just a couple of weeks time.  Some are just voluntarily closing for four weeks or longer to try and ride out the current rising wave of infections - hoping to be fit to reopen for the main summer holiday period.

This is all due to St Ives being rammed over the mid-term hols - like many other UK resorts - and they expect the G7 to have a similar effect.

Very bad news for St Ives and very worrying in general.


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## IainP (Jun 16, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'm not a policy maker.

There are 9 people in the whole of the East of England in hospital due to covid. (as of latest data). In Suffolk, Over 90% Of over 40's are double vacced.
		
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Good stats, suspect is pretty similar around here on the edge of the Cotswolds. I am conscious that visitor numbers will increase a lot as we are into summer. Maybe is similar in Suffolk. Tricky.


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## Old Skier (Jun 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Speaking today with a couple of guys working in a pub in St Ives.  They are down to just the two of them (and will have to close if one of them gets covid’d) as the usual level of hospitality workers has just not come back...or has gone for good...many are not interested in coming back into bar and restaurant work and certainly not interested in hospitality work in the current environment where places can be closed at a moments notice.  Their view is that pubs and restaurants are indeed closing like dominos toppling and that it’s quite possible that most if not all in St Ives will be closed in just a couple of weeks time.  Some are just voluntarily closing for four weeks or longer to try and ride out the current rising wave of infections - hoping to be fit to reopen for the main summer holiday period.

This is all due to St Ives being rammed over the mid-term hols - like many other UK resorts - and they expect the G7 to have a similar effect.

Very bad news for St Ives and very worrying in general.
		
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St Ives like the rest of Devon & Cornwall has had a surge of cases but it hasn’t affected the amount of grockels and emits visiting. Pubs reporting huge increase in custom and Visit Cornwall was reporting today that the majority of hospitality businesses are coping.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Front line medics need to be immune. A robust antibody response, updated at whatever interval is needed, would suffice. Otherwise, back room job.
		
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Not to mention taxi drivers, postmen and delivery drivers  etc .


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## SocketRocket (Jun 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Speaking today with a couple of guys working in a pub in St Ives.  They are down to just the two of them (and will have to close if one of them gets covid’d) as the usual level of hospitality workers has just not come back...or has gone for good...many are not interested in coming back into bar and restaurant work and certainly not interested in hospitality work in the current environment where places can be closed at a moments notice.  Their view is that pubs and restaurants are indeed closing like dominos toppling and that it’s quite possible that most if not all in St Ives will be closed in just a couple of weeks time.  Some are just voluntarily closing for four weeks or longer to try and ride out the current rising wave of infections - hoping to be fit to reopen for the main summer holiday period.

This is all due to St Ives being rammed over the mid-term hols - like many other UK resorts - and they expect the G7 to have a similar effect.

Very bad news for St Ives and very worrying in general.
		
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Probably not interested in the Zero hours contracts, minimum wage and unsocial hours after so long on Furlough.  Can't say I blame them, most places treat them awful and give them no path for improvement.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Probably not interested in the Zero hours contracts, minimum wage and unsocial hours after so long on Furlough.  Can't say I blame them, most places treat them awful and give them no path for improvement.
		
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The main problem in Devon and Cornwall is the lack of accommodation now for the staff as it has all been let out for holidays before hospitality was properly reopened Which affects the many in the industry that come down to work between April and October.


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## larmen (Jun 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The main problem in Devon and Cornwall is the lack of accommodation now for the staff as it has all been let out for holidays before hospitality was properly reopened Which affects the many in the industry that come down to work between April and October.
		
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There was something in the news a couple of weeks ago where a landlord has cancelled a £800 a month apartment because he can rent it out for £1500 a week. The guy leaving was front of house manager somewhere, the holiday makers now can’t go anywhere because hospitality can’t open without staff.
Imagine a cruise ship without crew quarters.


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## jim8flog (Jun 17, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I cannot understand what is happening in this country.   America has ditched social distancing and masks and life is back to normal.  135000 people at the Indy 500 this month.  Normal life has returned and the bodies of dead are not piling up in the streets.  Our vaccine program is miles ahead of theirs yet we are still living with restrictions imposed by a small group of highly influential, risk averse medics and politicians.   There is no case for these restrictions any longer and there hasn't been for some time.

I hope that my fellow Brits will start to stand up to this control freakery as of next Monday and ditch masks as a first step - all you have to say to anyone is that you are exempt.    The country needs normality. The real health crisis is going to hit home very soon when the tsunami sized backlog of medical emergencies hits the NHS. Over 50,000 women walking around with undiagnosed breast cancer being a tiny tip of this particular iceberg. 

Let's get on with it and for those who are still blinded by government induced fear and terrified to push back on this tyranny, go and hide behind the sofa until your masters say you're allowed out.
		
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 But look at the long list of countries that you cannot travel from to get in to the USA. They have been very effective at keeping the variants out, so far.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 18, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			But look at the long list of countries that you cannot travel from to get in to the USA. They have been very effective at keeping the variants out, so far.
		
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A lot of Americans don't even own a passport or leave the USA ever in their life's. Why would they? They can have sun , snow, etc any type of holiday in their own country ..

So wouldn't say it's policy. Would say it's habbits 

We are a nation of travelers packed into a small island rather than into the vast area that is the USA.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 18, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Not to mention taxi drivers, postmen and delivery drivers  etc .
		
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What I couldn’t understand was when the groups came out who were priority in receiving the vaccine. At the time we had key workers. Police, supermarket workers, lorry drivers, etc etc. If they were key, why were they not priority.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 18, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What I couldn’t understand was when the groups came out who were priority in receiving the vaccine. At the time we had key workers. Police, supermarket workers, lorry drivers, etc etc. If they were key, why were they not priority.
		
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protect your voters first ...


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## Ethan (Jun 18, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What I couldn’t understand was when the groups came out who were priority in receiving the vaccine. At the time we had key workers. Police, supermarket workers, lorry drivers, etc etc. If they were key, why were they not priority.
		
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I think prioritising care home and NHS staff was the right thing to do, but the more you segment different occupations and are simultaneously trying to do an age-based rollout, it starts to become administratively very messy and overall impedes the pace of rollout. You get all sorts of special pleading and people elbowing their way into priority categories to queue jump. How do you verify someone is a supermarket worker? Are they in a public-facing role etc etc etc. What if they do the odd shift in the corner shop? Better just to press ahead with age-based rollout for most.


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## road2ruin (Jun 18, 2021)

Good to see that decisions are still be made using the best and most up to date of data.... 

Covid modelling that pushed back June 21 was based on out-of-date data (telegraph.co.uk)


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## ExRabbit (Jun 18, 2021)

Went to the local garage/mini-mart a few minutes ago to get a newspaper after watching the golf until silly-o-clock last night. Three young men from different vans were in there, none wearing any kind of mask. No wonder things are getting worse.


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## Ethan (Jun 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Good to see that decisions are still be made using the best and most up to date of data.... 

Covid modelling that pushed back June 21 was based on out-of-date data (telegraph.co.uk)

Click to expand...

Not out of date, different. These estimates are always that, estimates. Throughout this whole thing, one of the principles of public health has been consistently overlooked, and that is to take the more cautious number. 

The Telegraph seems to think the PHE (whose data they have criticised many times) is now the absolute copper-bottomed, take it to the bank, truth. It isn't. 

It is, however, the number that forms the best argument for stopping lockdown. That is not a coincidence. 

I am happy with pushing back the June 21 date, even though it will probably cost me a much-hoped for foreign holiday this year.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 19, 2021)

So it looks like the OPen and the British GP are going to go ahead with full or nearly full capacity, attendees will have to prove either 2 jabs or a negative lateral flow test. I've not had to 'prove' a test result before, do they accept the home test results which you report yourself, which is obviously open to abuse, or will you have to go to a test centre for an 'official' one?


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So it looks like the OPen and the British GP are going to go ahead with full or nearly full capacity, attendees will have to prove either 2 jabs or a negative lateral flow test. I've not had to 'prove' a test result before, do they accept the home test results which you report yourself, which is obviously open to abuse, or will you have to go to a test centre for an 'official' one?
		
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Yes they do .. Im not entirely sure how

However aren't you jabbed now? Or is it just one dose?

They said you would have to provide proof of negative test 

I believe (not sure) the NHS app is updating so you have to photograph the test not just say it's negative


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes they do .. Im not entirely sure how

However aren't you jabbed now? Or is it just one dose?

They said you would have to provide proof of negative test

I believe (not sure) the NHS app is updating so you have to photograph the test not just say it's negative
		
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I clicked be part of a trail. I believe the events you go to will give you a code to be used here for tests


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## SaintHacker (Jun 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Yes they do .. Im not entirely sure how

However aren't you jabbed now? Or is it just one dose?

They said you would have to provide proof of negative test

I believe (not sure) the NHS app is updating so you have to photograph the test not just say it's negative
		
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Ah ok, that makes life a bit easier.
Had one jab, 2nd is on the 5th of july so will be just outside the two week window, plus my 16 year old lad will need a test as well


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 19, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Ah ok, that makes life a bit easier.
Had one jab, 2nd is on the 5th of july so will be just outside the two week window, plus my 16 year old lad will need a test as well
		
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If it’s any help mate, the Champions League and FA Cup finals required proper tests and the negative result slip had to be produced at the FA Cup final along with your ticket was the instructions from the club. 

You were also asked to do the post in self test afterwards so that they could see if it had caused a spike.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 19, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			If it’s any help mate, the Champions League and FA Cup finals required proper tests and the negative result slip had to be produced at the FA Cup final along with your ticket was the instructions from the club.

You were also asked to do the post in self test afterwards so that they could see if it had caused a spike.
		
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The open requires just lateral flow tests (got the email today)

Provide proof at the entry gates of full (two dose) vaccination at least 14 days before attendance via the NHS App or NHS.UK or by letter which can be ordered from 119, or proof of a negative lateral flow test within 48 hours of attendance via the NHS App or NHS.UK. Lateral flow tests can be ordered for free here;


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## Old Skier (Jun 19, 2021)

If any of you have 18> family going for Pfizer can you get them to have some decent food and drink inside them before the jab, their keeling over like nine pins where I volunteer.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 19, 2021)

Got back from an offshore trip on Thursday evening. Popped along to the vaccination centre yesterday morning where I'd got my first jab to see what I needed to do to bring my second jab forwards. Such amazingly helpful staff there and they asked me to take a seat while they checked if they could fit me in. Two minute wait and I was in front of the nurse rolling up my sleeve and getting my second jab. After feeling crap for two days after my first jab, fortunately I've had no side effects this time.


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## IainP (Jun 20, 2021)

Some info/thoughts on delta
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57489740


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## PNWokingham (Jun 20, 2021)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic..._source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...alth-study-showing-vaccine-effectiveness.html


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## Ethan (Jun 20, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic..._source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...alth-study-showing-vaccine-effectiveness.html

Click to expand...

Far be it from me to defend Matt Hancock, who I think is an utter [redacted], but the Mail story shows their usual reckless disregard for any critical evaluation of data. The numbers quoted by PHE are very encouraging, but have been taken as some sort of absolute true statement of vaccine effectiveness, and all previous data immediately rejected. That is not a sensible approach, and I am glad the Govt have not been drawn into an unsafe conclusion. I bet the PHE experts wouldn't disagree.


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## larmen (Jun 20, 2021)

I have seen a number of 75% of vaccination now to reach herd immunity. Is that anywhere close to right with the current transmission rates? Also not sure if hat was adults or population including kids.
But whatever the number is, I think we are moving towards it very quickly now.


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## Ethan (Jun 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			I have seen a number of 75% of vaccination now to reach herd immunity. Is that anywhere close to right with the current transmission rates? Also not sure if hat was adults or population including kids.
But whatever the number is, I think we are moving towards it very quickly now.
		
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A herd immunity threshold of 75% suggests a R of 4. The herd immunity does not mean they everyone is safe, just that a runaway pandemic won't happen.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			A herd immunity threshold of 75% suggests a R of 4. The herd immunity does not mean they everyone is safe, just that a runaway pandemic won't happen.
		
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If a person passes on the virus to an average of four others isn't that a runaway pandemic?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If a person passes on the virus to an average of four others isn't that a runaway pandemic?
		
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I haven't got a medical background but I assume that the herd immunity figure takes that into account. For example, R=4 but 75% of the population have immunity, probably from having the vaccine. Therefore out of the 4 people that the person would have passed the virus on to 3 of them (75% = 3 out of 4) have had the vaccine and it's only one left for them to pass it on to, so in this case R is reduced from 4 to 1. This obviously assumes that the vaccine is 100% effective in preventing transmission, which with Covid and current vaccines, it doesn't. Therefore for a virus where R=4, a herd immunity threshold of over 75% would be required for a vaccine that is less than 100% effective.

But I'm sure @Ethan will correct that if I've missed or misunderstood anything.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I haven't got a medical background but I assume that the herd immunity figure takes that into account. For example, R=4 but 75% of the population have immunity, probably from having the vaccine. Therefore out of the 4 people that the person would have passed the virus on to 3 of them (75% = 3 out of 4) have had the vaccine and it's only one left for them to pass it on to, so in this case R is reduced from 4 to 1. This obviously assumes that the vaccine is 100% effective in preventing transmission, which with Covid and current vaccines, it doesn't. Therefore for a virus where R=4, a herd immunity threshold of over 75% would be required for a vaccine that is less than 100% effective.

But I'm sure @Ethan will correct that if I've missed or misunderstood anything.
		
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Yes, that's clarified it.


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I haven't got a medical background but I assume that the herd immunity figure takes that into account. For example, R=4 but 75% of the population have immunity, probably from having the vaccine. Therefore out of the 4 people that the person would have passed the virus on to 3 of them (75% = 3 out of 4) have had the vaccine and it's only one left for them to pass it on to, so in this case R is reduced from 4 to 1. This obviously assumes that the vaccine is 100% effective in preventing transmission, which with Covid and current vaccines, it doesn't. Therefore for a virus where R=4, a herd immunity threshold of over 75% would be required for a vaccine that is less than 100% effective.

But I'm sure @Ethan will correct that if I've missed or misunderstood anything.
		
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You are spot on. It is a mathematical construct such that, as you say if something passes on to 4 others on average, and you vaccinate 3/4 of people, iyt can only pass on to 1 on average and the pandemic won't propagate. The 1 in 4 can still catch it and die.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 21, 2021)

My daughters school year has shut because two teachers and a child tested positive.
Got her stuck in the house now for 10 days and I have lost my upstairs bathroom .


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## SocketRocket (Jun 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are spot on. It is a mathematical construct such that, as you say if something passes on to 4 others on average, and you vaccinate 3/4 of people, iyt can only pass on to 1 on average and the pandemic won't propagate. The 1 in 4 can still catch it and die.
		
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Although if it doesn't pass on to four others surely it can't have a value of 4.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 21, 2021)

Just had a call from vacc centre,  2nd jab brought forward from july 5th to tomorrow!


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Although if it doesn't pass on to four others surely it can't have a value of 4.
		
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Well, the virus can have the propensity to transmit to 4, but can't practically do so because some of the 4 are immune. It is still a useful measure of how easy it would be for that particular variant to spread if given the chance. It is not a great way to measure the resistance to infection (vaccinated and/or immune) in the population.


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## Billysboots (Jun 21, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughters school year has shut because two teachers and a child tested positive.
Got her stuck in the house now for 10 days and I have lost my upstairs bathroom .
		
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That’s such a lazy way of dealing with it. Have they even attempted contact tracing?

Given the fact this pandemic has now been with us for nearly 18 months you really would like to think that all educational establishments are far more savvy and organised than simply sending entire years home to isolate, although I do accept it depends on the size of the school. It seems that some still lag behind.

My lad’s college did the same back in March. Sent his whole year home for ten days, told them to self isolate, all because of a single positive test. We had to badger the college to tell us which student had returned the positive test and eventually found out via other means that it was someone on another course in another part of the college. My lad and his course mates have never had, and never will have, contact with the student, the area of the college he attends, or the lecturers he comes into contact with. Suffice to say the college’s insistence that everyone in the year self isolated “in line with government guidance” was cobblers - the guidance says nothing of the sort. I’ve read it.

I absolutely agree that a huge number of schools and colleges have this fine tuned now, so this isn’t a general observation aimed at all. But it’s long overdue that  some got a grip and dealt with this proportionately.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, the virus can have the propensity to transmit to 4, but can't practically do so because some of the 4 are immune. It is still a useful measure of how easy it would be for that particular variant to spread if given the chance. It is not a great way to measure the resistance to infection (vaccinated and/or immune) in the population.
		
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Sorry this is a basic question triggered by the above...what is it about the vaccination that protects the vaccinated from picking up the virus.  I thought the vaccination protects the infected from developing covid-19 and reduces onward transmission by the vaccinated but infected individual?


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## larmen (Jun 21, 2021)

Has Italy found the key to vaccinate the younger generation?




I would probably go elsewhere, maybe vaccination bingo instead.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			That’s such a lazy way of dealing with it. Have they even attempted contact tracing?

Given the fact this pandemic has now been with us for nearly 18 months you really would like to think that all educational establishments are far more savvy and organised than simply sending entire years home to isolate, although I do accept it depends on the size of the school. It seems that some still lag behind.

My lad’s college did the same back in March. Sent his whole year home for ten days, told them to self isolate, all because of a single positive test. We had to badger the college to tell us which student had returned the positive test and eventually found out via other means that it was someone on another course in another part of the college. My lad and his course mates have never had, and never will have, contact with the student, the area of the college he attends, or the lecturers he comes into contact with. Suffice to say the college’s insistence that everyone in the year self isolated “in line with government guidance” was cobblers - the guidance says nothing of the sort. I’ve read it.

I absolutely agree that a huge number of schools and colleges have this fine tuned now, so this isn’t a general observation aimed at all. But it’s long overdue that  some got a grip and dealt with this proportionately.
		
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Yes but these are only 5 yr olds who go around licking each other and worse things.
It must be tough for youngsters who have exams coming up.


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## Billysboots (Jun 21, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but these are only 5 yr olds who go around licking each other and worse things.
It must be tough for youngsters who have exams coming up.
		
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In which case I totally get it. Apart from the licking. There’s a time and a place for licking.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 21, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but these are only 5 yr olds who go around licking each other and worse things.
It must be tough for youngsters who have exams coming up.
		
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Not when your 5 it’s always time


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## larmen (Jun 21, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes but these are only 5 yr olds who go around licking each other and worse things.
It must be tough for youngsters who have exams coming up.
		
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We got an email today that a child in our sons reception class got tested and that in line with policy we are told. Happened a few times before, followed by an email the test was negative. No idea what happens if a test comes back positive.


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## Backache (Jun 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Although if it doesn't pass on to four others surely it can't have a value of 4.
		
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It all depends on what R value you are referring too. The R0 value is the number of people on average a single infected person transmits too in a fully susceptible population and is what theoretical estimates of herd immunity are based on The R0 is usually estimated at the beginning of an outbreak as later immunity will have developed in the population. When people talk about the current R value they are talking about what the estimated transmission rate is at the current time which is sometimes referred to as Rt. This will depend on what proportion of the population have full or partial immunity and any extra measure such as distancing and mask wearing are having.


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry this is a basic question triggered by the above...what is it about the vaccination that protects the vaccinated from picking up the virus.  I thought the vaccination protects the infected from developing covid-19 and reduces onward transmission by the vaccinated but infected individual?
		
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Viruses are basically little genetic factories that do nothing but make more virus. When you get infected, the virus takes over some cells, for example lung tissue with Covid, and use them to replicate. Your body may react against this and that causes some of the symptoms. Other symptoms are caused by the cels not doing what they were supposed to do before they were taken over. The virus that results spills out and can be released in breath, for example, and transmits as a result. If you vaccinate people, the virus will be very much less likely to replicate in those people, so they won't get Covid themselves, but they also won't be shedding much virus in their breath to transmit to others.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Viruses are basically little genetic factories that do nothing but make more virus. When you get infected, the virus takes over some cells, for example lung tissue with Covid, and use them to replicate. Your body may react against this and that causes some of the symptoms. Other symptoms are caused by the cels not doing what they were supposed to do before they were taken over. The virus that results spills out and can be released in breath, for example, and transmits as a result. If you vaccinate people, the virus will be very much less likely to replicate in those people, so they won't get Covid themselves, but they also won't be shedding much virus in their breath to transmit to others.
		
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Thanks for that very clear explanation - Id got the basics of that...but your explanation doesn't mention the impact of my having the vaccination on reducing the risk of my picking up the virus.


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## Ethan (Jun 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks for that very clear explanation - Id got the basics of that...but your explanation doesn't mention the impact of my having the vaccination on reducing the risk of my picking up the virus.
		
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You can pick it up, the vax doesn't create a forcefield, but it is very likely (90%-ish) that your immune system will take care of the little blighter so that it won't replicate in you and therefore will neither affect you not will you create more to spread around.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks for that very clear explanation - Id got the basics of that...but your explanation doesn't mention the impact of my having the vaccination on reducing the risk of my picking up the virus.
		
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Aha- not indulging in semantics here, H , but you have changed the sentence? Now you have introduced 'my' vaccination and 'my 'picking up...
Ethan is talking about the effects of vaccination...which was the question.
The risk of picking up the virus is lessened because the more people who are vaccinated means less incidence of contacting it from someone who is positive and unvaccinated .( cos there's less of them, obviously) Those are the ones who may shed it to you in quantities where your body has a bigger fight on its hands....
On an individual level, however,
the  vaccine was never a 'force field' which could stop that virus getting to you, if you encountered it.But it causes your body to more quickly reject the virus and fight the virus more quickly and effectively, almost certainly completely effectively !  and you will probably have hardly any symptoms, because you are vaccinated. IOW, you already have an army of antibodies in you to fight the virus which is trying to take hold. .


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## SaintHacker (Jun 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks for that very clear explanation - Id got the basics of that...but your explanation doesn't mention the impact of my having the vaccination on reducing the risk of my picking up the virus.
		
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There was a programme on BBC a few nights ago about the vacc program, that explained very well in laymans terms how all the different vaccines work. Its probably available on catch up


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2021)

Thanks all.  I did understand all of it, but was thrown a little by suggestion - my poor reading of what was posted - that the vaccination would somehow prevent me from picking up the virus.  It doesn't directly - but does indirectly by the fact of most *others* being vaccinated and hence I would be unlucky if I was in contact with someone who was infectious and who passed it to me. 👍


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## Ethan (Jun 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks all.  I did understand all of it, but was thrown a little by suggestion - my poor reading of what was posted - that the vaccination would somehow prevent me from picking up the virus.  It doesn't directly - but does indirectly by the fact of most *others* being vaccinated and hence I would be unlucky if I was in contact with someone who was infectious and who passed it to me. 👍
		
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If someone sneezes in your face, the little beasties can still land on you and go into your lungs. 

If you hadn't been vaccinated, there was a decent chance that the little beasties would then commander cells in your lungs and start making more little beasties, some of which you would later sneeze onto somebody else, and so on. 

Now, the little beasties will still get onto/into you, but you have a force of immune special forces that will appear and terminate them. Now they won't take be able to take over your cells and you won't sneeze their descendants onto somebody else, even if they are unvaccinated. 

You win, someone else wins too.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 22, 2021)

larmen said:



			We got an email today that a child in our sons reception class got tested and that in line with policy we are told. Happened a few times before, followed by an email the test was negative. No idea what happens if a test comes back positive.
		
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They shut down their bubble.
Lots of it going on atm.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If someone sneezes in your face, the little beasties can still land on you and go into your lungs.

If you hadn't been vaccinated, there was a decent chance that the little beasties would then commander cells in your lungs and start making more little beasties, some of which you would later sneeze onto somebody else, and so on.

Now, the little beasties will still get onto/into you, but you have a force of immune special forces that will appear and terminate them. Now they won't take be able to take over your cells and you won't sneeze their descendants onto somebody else, even if they are unvaccinated.

You win, someone else wins too.
		
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Does this not then all mean that in the end we are all going to be carrying the virus, and would test positive for its presence - but that having been vaccinated we will have most likely fought off covid and it will not be replicating within us.  Or has the virus itself got a ’shelf-life’ after we pick it up after which it becomes inactive and will not result in covid or indeed be transmittable - at which point we would test negative for the presence of the virus.  Must go read more.


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## Ethan (Jun 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does this not then all mean that in the end we are all going to be carrying the virus, and would test positive for its presence - but that having been vaccinated we will have most likely fought off covid and it will not be replicating within us.  Or has the virus itself got a ’shelf-life’ after we pick it up after which it becomes inactive and will not result in covid or indeed be transmittable - at which point we would test negative for the presence of the virus.  Must go read more.
		
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The virus will eventually die out if unable to replicate at a reasonable scale. It needs some sort of reservoir to survive, and that will become unvaccinated or vaccine non-responders. We will all end up with immunity or at least evidence of previous exposure, just as we do for numerous other infectious agents, some of which we never knew we had ever encountered.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 23, 2021)

16,000 new cases 😳


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			16,000 new cases 😳
		
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Jeez


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## Tashyboy (Jun 23, 2021)

One of the lads I know through the RBL Branch vice chair has been on east midlands news. He was the longest patient with covid in the local hospital  and has been taken out of ICU. A good day.


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## Slime (Jun 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			16,000 new cases 😳
		
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But how many are ill and how many are having to go to hospital.
Aren't they the relevant figures?


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## road2ruin (Jun 23, 2021)

Slime said:



			But how many are ill and how many are having to go to hospital.
Aren't they the relevant figures?
		
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Correct. Cases were always expected to go up and they’ll continue to do so however it doesn’t mean anything as long as hospitalisations and deaths don’t follow. So far it appears that the vaccines are doing the job and there hasn’t been the surge in the more important numbers especially since it’s a few weeks after the Delta variant got all excitable. Vaccine centres around us all appear to be walk in’s pretty much so the speed of vaccinations should be rapid as long as there is the supply. Roll on July 19th.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Correct. *Cases were always expected to go up and they’ll continue to do so however it doesn’t mean anything* as long as hospitalisations and deaths don’t follow. So far it appears that the vaccines are doing the job and there hasn’t been the surge in the more important numbers especially since it’s a few weeks after the Delta variant got all excitable. Vaccine centres around us all appear to be walk in’s pretty much so the speed of vaccinations should be rapid as long as there is the supply. Roll on July 19th.
		
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RE the bit in bold, that's true to a degree as long as the virus isn't present in the population to such an extent that it can mutate into a variant that can evade the vaccine. If that happens we're in deep doo doo until they can tweak the vaccine to make it effective against the new variant.


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## road2ruin (Jun 23, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			RE the bit in bold, that's true to a degree as long as the virus isn't present in the population to such an extent that it can mutate into a variant that can evade the vaccine. If that happens we're in deep doo doo until they can tweak the vaccine to make it effective against the new variant.
		
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Aren’t further mutations inevitable though? It may not be from our country however with the amount of unvaccinated around the world it’s almost certain that there will be.


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## IainP (Jun 23, 2021)

As often, it's difficult to gain a clear picture. Of course agree if hospitalisations and deaths stay low then a good sign, but the case rate suggests a concern especially when compared with the countries on the continent - typically lower than when the UK was low. But is there more testing going on here which could be skewing?

From here, seems Scotland did log the most tests in one day
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57580118


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Aren’t further mutations inevitable though? It may not be from our country however with the amount of unvaccinated around the world it’s almost certain that there will be.
		
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The more cases in the population the more chance of it happening.  High infection rates are not good news.


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## road2ruin (Jun 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The more cases in the population the more chance of it happening.  High infection rates are not good news.
		
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It’s not good news however it was inevitable given restrictions were lifted whilst large numbers of the population were unvaccinated. As long as hospitalisations didn’t follow suit that was the important thing. As things stand the numbers going into hospital haven’t shot up and those that are going in are younger and, in the main, aren’t staying in as long and don’t end up in ICU.


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2021)

Slime said:



			But how many are ill and how many are having to go to hospital.
Aren't they the relevant figures?
		
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It isn't all about deaths and hospitalisations. Long Covid cases and people who get subclinical damage despite "mild" Covid will occur when case numbers are high. That means future renal, liver, heart failures and other bad stuff. Covid is a nasty condition to be avoided even if hospitalisation does not occur. The 'its just a flu' narrative is still wrong.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It isn't all about deaths and hospitalisations. Long Covid cases and people who get subclinical damage despite "mild" Covid will occur when case numbers are high. That means future renal, liver, heart failures and other bad stuff. Covid is a nasty condition to be avoided even if hospitalisation does not occur. The 'its just a flu' narrative is still wrong.
		
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I'm not disputing what your saying I'm interested how can we be sure it will cause future liver, heart and renal failures when its still a new illness?


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## Tashyboy (Jun 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It isn't all about deaths and hospitalisations. Long Covid cases and people who get subclinical damage despite "mild" Covid will occur when case numbers are high. That means future renal, liver, heart failures and other bad stuff. Covid is a nasty condition to be avoided even if hospitalisation does not occur. The 'its just a flu' narrative is still wrong.
		
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Furthermore, will countries allow us to travel there if we have high rates esp Delta
😷☹


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 24, 2021)

IainP said:



			As often, it's difficult to gain a clear picture. Of course agree if hospitalisations and deaths stay low then a good sign, but the case rate suggests a concern especially when compared with the countries on the continent - typically lower than when the UK was low. But is there more testing going on here which could be skewing?

From here, seems Scotland did log the most tests in one day
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57580118

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Exactly. More testing gives more positives. There has been quite a lot of surge testing. Descending on an area and testing people without symptoms.
The results are bound to show more positives than previous testing levels which were done when people suspected they may have it, because they had symptoms. ( and how many of them didn't go for a test, for various reasons)
It is recognised that up to a third of positives have no symptoms. In surge testing they are being revealed, are they not?
So the level of positives has always been higher than the test results reveal.
Also, a high number of the positives now are schoolchildren and young adults who basically, in the main,  "shrug off a cold"
AS Slime says it is the hospital cases figures which are important. And the vaccination figures.
Incidences of Covid are never going to disappear.
Yesterday's briefing spelled out re vaccinations. That is the answer.
People must vaccinate.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 24, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Furthermore, will countries allow us to travel there if we have high rates esp Delta
😷☹
		
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Edit to say, Merkel has suggested that travellers from the UK to the EU should have to isolate.


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## road2ruin (Jun 24, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Edit to say, Merkel has suggested that travellers from the UK to the EU should have to isolate.
		
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For me that's just political gesturing, the Delta variant is already in Europe (albeit at low levels at the moment) and based on previous figures Europe are a few weeks behind us. On that basis they'll likely face a similar rise in infections in the coming month as the Delta variant takes hold. 

Thing is as soon as Delta becomes the norm it'll be Theta, Iota or Kappa next up......


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm not disputing what your saying I'm interested how can we be sure it will cause future liver, heart and renal failures when its still a new illness?
		
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Because the damage is already evident in many "recovered" patients if you look for it.

It also stands to reason, because Covid is not a respiratory infection, it is a systemic (whole body) inflammatory condition, like sepsis, and the effects of that, and other similar inflammatory conditions, is well known.

Here is a paper on brain MRI findings in “recovered” Covid patients. MRI after Covid


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For me that's just political gesturing, the Delta variant is already in Europe *(albeit at low levels at the moment)* and based on previous figures Europe are a few weeks behind us. On that basis they'll likely face a similar rise in infections in the coming month as the Delta variant takes hold.

Thing is as soon as Delta becomes the norm it'll be Theta, Iota or Kappa next up......
		
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This is the key aspect. You wouldn't say that it isn't worth trying to stem the bleeding just because it has already started. Less delta is better than more. Why let more in?

Theta etc will certainly come. It remains to be seen what their characteristics are, but for now, it makes sense to try to minimise the effects of Delta.


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## road2ruin (Jun 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is the key aspect. You wouldn't say that it isn't worth trying to stem the bleeding just because it has already started. Less delta is better than more. Why let more in?

Theta etc will certainly come. It remains to be seen what their characteristics are, but for now, it makes sense to try to minimise the effects of Delta.
		
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I agree about trying not to let more in however it's highly likely that even if they closed shop now it'd still be the dominant strain in 2-3 weeks time. The furture variants will always find a way into the countries, we just have to hope that it doesn't mutate into something nastier however there isn't going to be a huge amount we can do about that especially once international travel becomes back again.


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## Ethan (Jun 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I agree about trying not to let more in however it's highly likely that even if they closed shop now it'd still be the dominant strain in 2-3 weeks time. The furture variants will always find a way into the countries, we just have to hope that it doesn't mutate into something nastier however there isn't going to be a huge amount we can do about that especially once international travel becomes back again.
		
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Sure, but the height of the peak may be reduced. It's a firefighting approach.


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## fundy (Jun 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For me that's just political gesturing, the Delta variant is already in Europe (albeit at low levels at the moment) and based on previous figures Europe are a few weeks behind us. On that basis they'll likely face a similar rise in infections in the coming month as the Delta variant takes hold. 

Thing is as soon as Delta becomes the norm it'll be Theta, Iota or Kappa next up......
		
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think youll find Delta plus is already next and already in the UK


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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2021)

Full capacity for the British Grand Prix, that should make a few on here happy.


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## fundy (Jun 24, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Full capacity for the British Grand Prix, that should make a few on here happy.
		
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whilst parents being told they cant attend their kids sportsdays.....................


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## BiMGuy (Jun 24, 2021)

fundy said:



			whilst parents being told they cant attend their kids sportsdays.....................
		
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Parents not attending sports days will be brilliant for the kids. They can enjoy their day without a load of red faced parents screaming at them.


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## fundy (Jun 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Parents not attending sports days will be brilliant for the kids. They can enjoy their day without a load of red faced parents screaming at them.
		
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maybe the England football team should play behind closed doors based on this logic


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## BiMGuy (Jun 24, 2021)

fundy said:



			maybe the England football team should play behind closed doors based on this logic 

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Not a bad idea.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2021)

Perhaps such as schools should be able to sign up their sports day as being a ‘test event’ and follow all necessary procedures. 

The complaint ‘If A then why not B‘ for me could be countered when A and B were similar but we couldn‘t have both due to aggregated risk...but when one sports event such as the GP or Euros cup final is equivalent to 100 school sports days then the aggregation rationale I used to be a proponent of, to me simply fails and we just look at the absurdity of what’s being allowed and what isn’t.

With that the government loses the public and we veer towards a ‘free for all’. And that I fear would not be good.  Risk of throwing away much of the progress made in managing the spread of the virus - with all that that entails.


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## GB72 (Jun 24, 2021)

A school sports day does not produce any meaningful data. The purpose of the large scale events is to ascertain the impact based on removing regulations in a few weeks. I guess that wathcing little Timmy do the egg and spoon race does not feed anything valuable into the mix when making decisions on large scale events.


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## fundy (Jun 24, 2021)

GB72 said:



			A school sports day does not produce any meaningful data. The purpose of the large scale events is to ascertain the impact based on removing regulations in a few weeks. I guess that wathcing little Timmy do the egg and spoon race does not feed anything valuable into the mix when making decisions on large scale events.
		
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no but stopping parents go to them whilst seeing 60,000 at wembley or 150,000 at silverstone is hacking off a lot of people and engendering less trust and causing more division, just what some would want i hear you say..........its not all about the large scale events.


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## BiMGuy (Jun 24, 2021)

fundy said:



			no but stopping parents go to them whilst seeing 60,000 at wembley or 150,000 at silverstone is hacking off a lot of people and engendering less trust and causing more division, just what some would want i hear you say..........its not all about the large scale events.
		
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The only people who are complaining about not going to sports day, are the same people who would complain if all parents were allowed to go to sports day.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			The only people who are complaining about not going to sports day, are the same people who would complain if all parents were allowed to go to sports day.
		
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Egg and spoon and sack race should be fine, three legged race may be problematic though.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Egg and spoon and sack race should be fine, three legged race may be problematic though.
		
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Depends on how rural you are. In some cases it's fine as it's just the one kid...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Depends on how rural you are. In some cases it's fine as it's just the one kid...
		
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Yes that's right but when coupled with webbed feet it's better avoided.


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## pauljames87 (Jun 25, 2021)

fundy said:



			whilst parents being told they cant attend their kids sportsdays.....................
		
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That's changed


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## drdel (Jun 25, 2021)

A schools sports day is entirely different to a professional arena with public toilets and crowd control flows etc.


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## Ethan (Jun 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			A schools sports day is entirely different to a professional arena with public toilets and crowd control flows etc.
		
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Yep, standing outside around the football field or wherever it is should pose minimal risk. Not so sure about 140,000 at Silverstone, though.


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## larmen (Jun 25, 2021)

Isn’t that 140k tested or fully vaccinated?


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## Ethan (Jun 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			Isn’t that 140k tested or fully vaccinated?
		
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Yes, but tests could be up to 72hrs old, or false negatives, vaccination is not 100% effective, and some people may find a way to game the system. 

I think building up these things is good, but this seems like a step too far too quickly.


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## larmen (Jun 25, 2021)

Gaming the system should be a crime.


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## Ethan (Jun 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			Gaming the system should be a crime.
		
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It probably is, but 5 minutes after the NHS App was announced, people on the net were showing ways to do exactly that. The guys on the gates at Silverstone will be more interested in getting punters through the gates than doing cybersecurity checks.


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## SaintHacker (Jun 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It probably is, but 5 minutes after the NHS App was announced, people on the net were showing ways to do exactly that. The guys on the gates at Silverstone will be more interested in getting punters through the gates than doing cybersecurity checks.
		
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I'll let you know what its like 👍
I'm not worried, the place is massive, all the grandstands are open, not bowled like a football stadium, and there's virtually no public transport available so everyone comes by car. Will be interesting to see if they give weekend ticket holders a pass to say they've passed the entry test on arrival to speed things up through the weekend,  or if we will have to show or vacc/test proof every time we go in


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## GB72 (Jun 27, 2021)

Cases of covid in the South African rugby squad and rumours, so far unsubstantiated, that there was attempts to keep this quiet until after the lions team had departed. Still think this tour is a mistake the moment and without fans really not what a lions tour should be


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## jim8flog (Jun 27, 2021)

It was interesting listening to Andrew Marr this morning He has just recovered from a bout of covid which reckons he picked up at the G7 meeting. He had been double jabbed and he said he felt pretty ill just not ill enough to go to hospital. He said his symptoms were very unlike what they give out on the NHS website, he said is was more like having a very bad cold.

The person who was being interviewed at the time Professor Sir Peter Horby said what happened to him is about what the experts expect i.e the vaccines will not stop you from getting it,  just it will not be bad enough to put you in to hospital.


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## Tashyboy (Jun 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Cases of covid in the South African rugby squad and rumours, so far unsubstantiated, that there was attempts to keep this quiet until after the lions team had departed. Still think this tour is a mistake the moment and without fans really not what a lions tour should be
		
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What I cannot understand or maybe it has not been disclosed yet. The whole team is isolating, but when a Scotland football player gets Covid, 2 England players had to isolate but not the Scotland squad. Was there, is there a difference.


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## GB72 (Jun 27, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What I cannot understand or maybe it has not been disclosed yet. The whole team is isolating, but when a Scotland football player gets Covid, 2 England players had to isolate but not the Scotland squad. Was there, is there a difference.
		
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My suspicion, the 2 England players were the PR scapegoats. Could not isolate the whole team as no time to play the match later on. That is me being a cynic though. Then again, cases in Scotland rugby team for today's match. Original call was to remove the players from the squad and bring in new ones. Only further cases resulted in match being cancelled. The whole procedure for cases in sports teams are a bit sketchy. 

That said, the region the lions are staying in is struggling with a third wave and health services are struggling but the full lions squad is still going. All a bit concerning but money talks


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## pauljames87 (Jun 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			My suspicion, the 2 England players were the PR scapegoats. Could not isolate the whole team as no time to play the match later on. That is me being a cynic though. Then again, cases in Scotland rugby team for today's match. Original call was to remove the players from the squad and bring in new ones. Only further cases resulted in match being cancelled. The whole procedure for cases in sports teams are a bit sketchy.

That said, the region the lions are staying in is struggling with a third wave and health services are struggling but the full lions squad is still going. All a bit concerning but money talks
		
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See now for me the Scotland team didn't have to because they will have "followed" the rules. Distanced in changing rooms, all that .. yet our players broke it 

Just for show ofc


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## fundy (Jun 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			My suspicion, the 2 England players were the PR scapegoats. Could not isolate the whole team as no time to play the match later on. That is me being a cynic though. Then again, cases in Scotland rugby team for today's match. Original call was to remove the players from the squad and bring in new ones. Only further cases resulted in match being cancelled. The whole procedure for cases in sports teams are a bit sketchy. 

That said, the region the lions are staying in is struggling with a third wave and health services are struggling but the full lions squad is still going. All a bit concerning but money talks
		
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3 of the south african squad have tested positive and the whole squad now isolating!

some chatter the lions tour going to be relocated to cape town and all played in the one venue


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## IanM (Jun 27, 2021)

Lost my mum on 16th.   

Not covid,  but it meant for the last 15 months of her life i hardly saw her in person.  

Even now Care Home allow visits, (from April) we were limited to once a fortnight. 

There will be many similar stories.  Some will be worse.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lost my mum on 16th.  

Not covid,  but it meant for the last 15 months of her life i hardly saw her in person. 

Even now Care Home allow visits, (from April) we were limited to once a fortnight.

There will be many similar stories.  Some will be worse.
		
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Sorry to hear that. As you say there will be many "indirect" consequences of the pandemic we may never hear about but are very real.


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## Billysboots (Jun 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lost my mum on 16th.   

Not covid,  but it meant for the last 15 months of her life i hardly saw her in person.  

Even now Care Home allow visits, (from April) we were limited to once a fortnight. 

There will be many similar stories.  Some will be worse.
		
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So sorry to hear that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lost my mum on 16th.  

Not covid,  but it meant for the last 15 months of her life i hardly saw her in person. 

Even now Care Home allow visits, (from April) we were limited to once a fortnight.

There will be many similar stories.  Some will be worse.
		
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Sorry for your loss.


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## fundy (Jun 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lost my mum on 16th.   

Not covid,  but it meant for the last 15 months of her life i hardly saw her in person.  

Even now Care Home allow visits, (from April) we were limited to once a fortnight. 

There will be many similar stories.  Some will be worse.
		
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Sorry to hear Ian


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## Blue in Munich (Jun 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lost my mum on 16th.  

Not covid,  but it meant for the last 15 months of her life i hardly saw her in person. 

Even now Care Home allow visits, (from April) we were limited to once a fortnight.

There will be many similar stories.  Some will be worse.
		
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My condolences Ian.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2021)

And so in the last hour we hear - from the horses mouth - that removal of restrictions on 19th July is not irreversible - that being a different horse from that ridden by SJavid which stated yesterday that there was no reason for 19th July to be slipped.  I’d go with today’s horse - the prospect of a slippage or change to what’s allowed from the 19th is depressing and is going to be difficult for me and my Mrs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2021)

IanM said:



			Lost my mum on 16th.  

Not covid,  but it meant for the last 15 months of her life i hardly saw her in person. 

Even now Care Home allow visits, (from April) we were limited to once a fortnight.

There will be many similar stories.  Some will be worse.
		
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That’s hard and very sad for you and your family.  My condolences.


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## GreiginFife (Jun 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so in the last hour we hear - from the horses mouth - that removal of restrictions on 19th July is not irreversible - that being a different horse from that ridden by SJavid which stated yesterday that there was no reason for 19th July to be slipped.  I’d go with today’s horse - the prospect of a slippage or change to what’s allowed from the 19th is depressing and is going to be difficult for me and my Mrs.
		
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It will be difficult for a lot of people. 
But, I'll bite. Tell us, in your infinite wisdom, would you do?
Instead of just complaining and starting every post with a foreboding "and so we hear..." tell us, what would your expertise recommend that we do on the 19th against a backdrop of increasing cases and increasing hospitalisations and people still losing family members on a daily basis to this virus.

Enlighten us...


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## RichA (Jun 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so in the last hour we hear - from the horses mouth - that removal of restrictions on 19th July is not irreversible - that being a different horse from that ridden by SJavid which stated yesterday that there was no reason for 19th July to be slipped.  I’d go with today’s horse - the prospect of a slippage or change to what’s allowed from the 19th is depressing and is going to be difficult for me and my Mrs.
		
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Maybe the timeframe should be dictated by what the virus is doing, rather than what journalists badger politicians into saying.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 30, 2021)

RichA said:



			Maybe the timeframe should be dictated by what the virus is doing, rather than what journalists badger politicians into saying.
		
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Spot on, and, politicians resist giving exact dates.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			It will be difficult for a lot of people.
But, I'll bite. Tell us, in your infinite wisdom, would you do?
Instead of just complaining and starting every post with a foreboding "and so we hear..." tell us, what would your expertise recommend that we do on the 19th against a backdrop of increasing cases and increasing hospitalisations and people still losing family members on a daily basis to this virus.

Enlighten us...
		
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I am just saying what I heard today - which is not what we heard yesterday and so why I started...’and so we hear’.

I would stick with 19th and lift restrictions and requirements.  The chaos around schools, events and hospitality is unsustainable and so we might as well just get on with living with the virus.  And that is a change from my previous risk-averse thinking.  I think the impact of the current risk arising from virus is not worth the mitigations - they are a cost too far for the many individuals and business that have been seriously impacted by the lockdowns and restrictions.

It is easier to take the opposite view and for restrictions to be maintained and/or date slipped if the pandemic has not really impacted you at all, or you have been furloughed or been in receipt of grants and so financially you are OK. But that is not the case for many and they need the support of the wider public if and when restrictions are lifted on the 19th.


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## Billysboots (Jun 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Spot on, and, politicians resist giving exact dates.
		
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To be fair to the politicians, they earmarked 17th June as the earliest date all restrictions would be eased. It was our wonderful press who then set about dubbing it “Freedom Day” and wound the great unwashed up to fever pitch when the government, quite rightly, delayed it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2021)

RichA said:



			Maybe the timeframe should be dictated by what the virus is doing, rather than what journalists badger politicians into saying.
		
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The virus is out there, it is still out there. It will always be out there with us.  Lift the restrictions and watch very carefully for significant changes in the profile of illness arising from it.  Unexpected changes in that profile and increases in deaths will tell us if we have to change anything about our ‘new normal‘ behaviour - but work out and publicise those contingency measures.  Those who will now pick up and spread the virus are generally not going to become ill and put pressure on the NHS.  Let them pick it up to build their immunity. Monitor the demographic of admissions to hospitals and adjust accordingly as necessary and defined in our contingency plans.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			To be fair to the politicians, they earmarked 17th June as the earliest date all restrictions would be eased. It was our wonderful press who then set about dubbing it “Freedom Day” and wound the great unwashed up to fever pitch when the government, quite rightly, delayed it.
		
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Remember though that it was politicians who started talking about us getting back our freedoms on 16th June so what do you expect the media to call it but Freedom Day.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 30, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			To be fair to the politicians, they earmarked 17th June as the earliest date all restrictions would be eased. It was our wonderful press who then set about dubbing it “Freedom Day” and wound the great unwashed up to fever pitch when the government, quite rightly, delayed it.
		
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I have no issue with politicians saying; early, mid, late….insert month etc, but by giving exact dates, it’s not just causing issues for the “great unwashed” as you unfairly descibe them, it’s business’s and normal people who are starting to plan their lives etc, business’s have to, they need to order stock etc.

As others have said, the media is best ignored.


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## RichA (Jun 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The virus is out there, it is still out there. It will always be out there with us.  Lift the restrictions and watch very carefully for significant changes in the profile of illness arising from it.  Unexpected changes in that profile and increases in deaths will tell us if we have to change anything about our ‘new normal‘ behaviour - but work out and publicise those contingency measures.  Those who will now pick up and spread the virus are generally not going to become ill and put pressure on the NHS.  Let them pick it up to build their immunity. Monitor the demographic of admissions to hospitals and adjust accordingly as necessary and defined in our contingency plans.
		
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Is that not exactly what's happening at the moment and why the next phase has been delayed?


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I have no issue with politicians saying; early, mid, late….insert month etc, but by giving exact dates, it’s not just causing issues for the “great unwashed” as you unfairly descibe them, it’s business’s and normal people who are starting to plan their lives etc, business’s have to, they need to order stock etc.

As others have said, the media is best ignored.
		
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But if you’re ordering in stock, especially perishables, you need exact dates. Ordering in raw materials for manufacturing for delivery on a specific date only for the stock or finished product sit on the shelves doesn’t see the bank’s clock on money owed stopping.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			But if you’re ordering in stock, especially perishables, you need exact dates. Ordering in raw materials for manufacturing for delivery on a specific date only for the stock or finished product sit on the shelves doesn’t see the bank’s clock on money owed stopping.
		
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Exactly, so instead of giving an exact date 4-6 weeks in advance they should be more cautious, ie, 2nd week of XXX we will review, then either give a date or another review, surely it’s better they get a short 1 week notice than continual delays.

By the way, I support the delays, I feel sorry for the business owners.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am just saying what I heard today - which is not what we heard yesterday and so why I started...’and so we hear’.

I would stick with 19th and lift restrictions and requirements.  The chaos around schools, events and hospitality is unsustainable and so we might as well just get on with living with the virus.  And that is a change from my previous risk-averse thinking.  I think the impact of the current risk arising from virus is not worth the mitigations - they are a cost too far for the many individuals and business that have been seriously impacted by the lockdowns and restrictions.

It is easier to take the opposite view and for restrictions to be maintained and/or date slipped if the pandemic has not really impacted you at all, or you have been furloughed or been in receipt of grants and so financially you are OK. But that is not the case for many and they need the support of the wider public if and when restrictions are lifted on the 19th.
		
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i am in agreement with you. I need a drink!


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## Billysboots (Jun 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I have no issue with politicians saying; early, mid, late….insert month etc, but by giving exact dates, it’s not just causing issues for the “great unwashed” as you unfairly descibe them, it’s business’s and normal people who are starting to plan their lives etc, business’s have to, they need to order stock etc.

As others have said, the media is best ignored.
		
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In the main, most sensible people I have come across have always understood that the target dates set by government to remove us from lockdown were “not before” dates. They were very, very clear about that when the roadmap was set out.

Anyone who planned their lives on dates which were never set in stone to begin with was perhaps ill advised. And anyone who threw a hissy fit when June 17 came and went with us still not fully free from restrictions either never understood what was very clear to most in the first place, or placed far too much emphasis on what they read in the red-tops.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 30, 2021)

Dates were always accompanied with a caveat on what state we might find ourselves in. Can't understand why anyone would think otherwise. 
I am understanding that the rise in cases is chiefly amongst the young, teens to 30 or so,  I imagine because of lifestyle and not yet vaccinated. 
But , as an elderly double dosed, it is concerning as to where the hospitalisations and deaths are mainly occurring?  There doesn't seem to be a break down on that ( that I can find) as to whether double dosed elderly are being so affected.? I am hoping the vaccines are doing their job, because if so, then the situation is bound to improve soon and SILH has a point that at some stage we are going to be ( have to) able to live with this?


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The virus is out there, it is still out there. It will always be out there with us.  Lift the restrictions and watch very carefully for significant changes in the profile of illness arising from it.  Unexpected changes in that profile and increases in deaths will tell us if we have to change anything about our ‘new normal‘ behaviour - but work out and publicise those contingency measures.  Those who will now pick up and spread the virus are generally not going to become ill and put pressure on the NHS.  Let them pick it up to build their immunity. Monitor the demographic of admissions to hospitals and adjust accordingly as necessary and defined in our contingency plans.
		
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You are wrong that those who get the virus are not going to get ill. Few will die or end up in hospital right now, but a lot more will get long Covid or other organ damage that will bite them in the arse later. Good evidence of subclinical damage done to Covid survivors including brain, heart, kidney and liver, you know, the important stuff. These people are at high risk of organ failure way sooner than usual. 

There is a latent period between people getting the virus and cases emerging, so responding fast is not easy, especially when those supposed to do so are disinclined to do anything unpopular. 

And that circulating virus increases the chance of a new variant that might not be controlled by your vaccine.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are wrong that those who get the virus are not going to get ill. Few will die or end up in hospital right now, but a lot more will get long Covid or other organ damage that will bite them in the arse later. *Good evidence of subclinical damage done to Covid survivors i*ncluding brain, heart, kidney and liver, you know, the important stuff. These people are at high risk of organ failure way sooner than usual.

There is a latent period between people getting the virus and cases emerging, so responding fast is not easy, especially when those supposed to do so are disinclined to do anything unpopular.

And that circulating virus increases the chance of a new variant that might not be controlled by your vaccine.
		
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Is it know yet whether the long Covid signs start from having the disease or appear some time down the line when the patient believes they've recovered fully and it bites them in the arse?


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Is it know yet whether the long Covid signs start from having the disease or appear some time down the line when the patient believes they've recovered fully and it bites them in the arse?
		
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Long Covid usually involves people not really recovering. Sometimes vaccination helps, suggesting it is at least partly due to an immunological issue.

The subclinical damage is different, it is due to inflammatory changes in organs, not directly caused by virus but by various substances stimulated by the virus which then circulate around the body. These inflammatory effects of Covid are systemic - they can involve any organ and the vascular system, and there is mounting evidence that some people who had a very mild illness and seemed to fully recover have impairment of renal or liver function, one study has shown loss of brain tissue (known as brain atrophy, which you get in neurodegenerative diseases). I am a bit worried that over the next few years we will see a large number of young people going into renal failure, liver failure, people experiencing early dementia etc etc. This could be a bigger problem than the acute effects. Covid is a nasty nasty disease and people take it far too lightly.


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## AmandaJR (Jun 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Long Covid usually involves people not really recovering. Sometimes vaccination helps, suggesting it is at least partly due to an immunological issue.

The subclinical damage is different, it is due to inflammatory changes in organs. The inflammatory effects of Covid are systemic - they can involve any organ and the vascular system, and there is mounting evidence that some people who had a very mild illness and seemed to fully recover have impairment of renal or liver function, one study has shown loss of brain tissue (known as brain atrophy, which you get in neurodegenerative diseases). I am a bit worried that over the next few years we will see a large number of young people going into renal failure, liver failure, people experiencing early dementia etc etc. This could be a bigger problem than the acute effects. Covid is a nasty nasty disease and people take it far too lightly.
		
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Thanks Ethan. Very scary for sure - especially as we both had Covid back in November. Is it a message that should be being broadcast as much as possible to scare the "it's just like flu" or "we need to open hospitality now" brigade into taking it more seriously?


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## IainP (Jun 30, 2021)

"Public Health Scotland said two thirds of the 1,991 cases were people who travelled to London for Scotland's game with England on 18 June."
🥴
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57667163


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## Ethan (Jun 30, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks Ethan. Very scary for sure - especially as we both had Covid back in November. Is it a message that should be being broadcast as much as possible to scare the "it's just like flu" or "we need to open hospitality now" brigade into taking it more seriously?
		
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Well, it is a tricky message when a lot of people have had Covid already, and when there was a de facto herd immunity strategy for a while, and some want a youth version now. Very early in the pandemic, there were some reports of odd things being observed, for example reports of increased rates of Type I (the immune type) diabetes in children, presumed to be caused by subclinical pancreatic damage. More recently, papers on brain effects using sophisticated imaging techniques have appeared from several reputable sources, (Harvard, UCL and others), and evidence about myocarditis, the same type of condition reported with the mRNA vaccines, seen with Covid. I suspect renal biopsies would show some changes too. Immunology and inflammation are closely related, so cross over between the two is not surprising and is seen in other settings, but it appears to have a lot of punch with Covid.

There is a high level of awareness of these problems in the medical profession, and the truth is there is nothing much you can do now, aside from try to prevent others from joining the party, so I expect that doctors will be looking out for any effects. It isn't going to be pandemic levels, but we will see younger people whose conditions are considered associated with previous Covid infection.


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## bobmac (Jul 1, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks Ethan. Very scary for sure - especially as we both had Covid back in November. Is it a message that should be being broadcast as much as possible to scare the "it's just like flu" or "we need to open hospitality now" brigade into taking it more seriously?
		
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This may be of interest...
https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/long-covid


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			This may be of interest...
https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/long-covid

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The Zoe stuff is very good. The hidden subclinical damage done to seemingly fully recovered people is somewhat separate from long Covid, though.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 1, 2021)

I am taking the point about long Covid and it will be worrying for those who have had Covid, obviously.
But, without diminishing your concerns, can you tell us Ethan if the same or similar can be said for the after effects of having had flu.? 
I appreciate that you have said many times that Covid is not like flu, however, it may be helpful to know if Covid is unique in this respect.


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## DRW (Jul 1, 2021)

Reading this thread, reminds me why I dont often pop into this thread nowdays or the out of bounds and what has happen to D4S, Murph and people on here.

Well worth reading this tweet and the attached piece :-

Prof Francois Balloux on Twitter: "I've written a piece for 'The Conversation' on the recent study reporting that COVID19 infection was associated to a loss of volume of some regions of the brain. 1/ https://t.co/jIvEKadspw" / Twitter 


At some stage the zero covid people will get less coverage, as sadly zero covid is not going to happen. At some stage we will have to move on and as much as some hate the term but we are going to have to learn 'to live with covid'.

This I believe will mean the old normal will not return for many people, there is more to life/death than covid and we will have to balance up all harms to life, rather than trying to live our lives based on one harm and trying to protect everyone which we have clearly failed on. 

All the best and take care of yourselves people.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 1, 2021)

DRW said:



			At some stage the zero covid people will get less coverage, as sadly zero covid is not going to happen. At some stage we will have to move on and as much as some hate the term but we are going to have to learn 'to live with covid'.

.
		
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Which is exactly what Prof. Whitty said yesterday. Flu kills roughly 22k people a year, give or take, and that is seen as an acceptable outcome. Covid is currently killing a fraction of that amount, mosty due to the amazing work of the vaccine scientists. But it isn't going away, ever, so we need to decide what is an acceptable death rate for covid.
I am firmly of the belief now that the collateral damage from all the ongoing restrictions is going to have a far bigger negative impact going forward than covid itself, so its time we get going again.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Which is exactly what Prof. Whitty said yesterday. Flu kills roughly 22k people a year, give or take, and that is seen as an acceptable outcome. Covid is currently killing a fraction of that amount, mosty due to the amazing work of the vaccine scientists. But it isn't going away, ever, so we need to decide what is an acceptable death rate for covid.
I am firmly of the belief now that the collateral damage from all the ongoing restrictions is going to have a far bigger negative impact going forward than covid itself, so its time we get going again.
		
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What we don't get is detailed information on who are getting new infections and the demographics of who is dieing of Covid.   

The infection rates are starting to go through the roof which is creating a small number of new deaths and an increase in hospitalisation.  This increase in infections is concerning and could well lead to vaccine immune variants that would devastate the population.   Is this the new normal people are looking forward to?  IMO it's time to take off the kid gloves and become more aggressive with controlling and/or penalising those that are stunting our freedoms through their actions.


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## road2ruin (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What we don't get is detailed information on who are getting new infections and the demographics of who is dieing of Covid.  

The infection rates are starting to go through the roof which is creating a small number of new deaths and an increase in hospitalisation.  This increase in infections is concerning and could well lead to vaccine immune variants that would devastate the population.   Is this the new normal people are looking forward to?  IMO it's time to take off the kid gloves and become more aggressive with controlling and/or penalising those that are stunting our freedoms through their actions.
		
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But the increase in cases seems to be due to the massive rise in testing within schools/colleges rather than intentional rule breaking etc. In my area there are entire year groups off in local schools, my daughters school only has 1 year out of 4 in (albeit a small school with 1 year intakes) at the moment. A friends child is still in school but there are 8 positive cases in their class, all asymptomatic and only picked up as they are doing the lateral flow tests a couple of times a week.


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## Billysboots (Jul 1, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Which is exactly what Prof. Whitty said yesterday. Flu kills roughly 22k people a year, give or take, and that is seen as an acceptable outcome. Covid is currently killing a fraction of that amount, mosty due to the amazing work of the vaccine scientists. But it isn't going away, ever, so we need to decide what is an acceptable death rate for covid.
I am firmly of the belief now that the collateral damage from all the ongoing restrictions is going to have a far bigger negative impact going forward than covid itself, so its time we get going again.
		
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Totally agree. Whilst there is understandable concern that infections are spiralling, for the first time during this pandemic it looks very much as though hospital admissions and deaths are not following suit a couple of weeks later.

It seems to be that all the government are doing is buying time to really ramp up vaccinations amongst younger people - my 18 year old had his this morning. I fully expect, if admissions and deaths stay low even in the face of high infection rates come July 19, then the remaining shackles will be removed.

And that will be the final indication to us all that a decision has, indeed, been made that we will have to “live with it”. There is no alternative.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But the increase in cases seems to be due to the massive rise in testing within schools/colleges rather than intentional rule breaking etc. In my area there are entire year groups off in local schools, my daughters school only has 1 year out of 4 in (albeit a small school with 1 year intakes) at the moment. A friends child is still in school but there are 8 positive cases in their class, all asymptomatic and only picked up as they are doing the lateral flow tests a couple of times a week.
		
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What breakdown of figures I have seen is saying the majority of new infections is in youngsters.Up to  24 or so.
Although infection rates in my area have gone up quite a bit above national average, there are only 5 people in the areas hospitals.
That to me shows the vaccinination programme is winning, and things will get better as more get vaccinated.
An important consideration surely has to be - that we will not again be in our earlier situation where the majority ( earlier, the vast majority) are not vaccinated.
Already booster plans are being implemented.
We cannot keep the clamps on forever, in case one of the mutations might be 
vaccine resistant.


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## road2ruin (Jul 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What breakdown of figures I have seen is saying the majority of new infections is in youngsters.Up to  24 or so.
Although infection rates in my area have gone up quite a bit above national average, there are only 5 people in the areas hospitals.
That to me shows the vaccinination programme is winning, and things will get better as more get vaccinated.
An important consideration surely has to be - that we will not again be in our earlier situation where the majority ( earlier, the vast majority) are not vaccinated.
Already booster plans are being implemented.
We cannot keep the clamps on forever, in case one of the mutations might be
vaccine resistant.
		
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I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

I would also add that I would like to see no testing in schools in the new school year as I don't really see what that achieves. Come September all adults will have been vaccinated (or at least offered the vaccine) and we know that children have very low risk from Covid so children should be off school if they're sick only. If we're going to keep having children isolating whilst being asymptomatic it will have huge affects on both the children's education and the parents ability to work. Plus there is also this issue that if children aren't allowed to be sick there could be even more issues as immunity to other things wear off.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But the increase in cases seems to be due to the massive rise in testing within schools/colleges rather than intentional rule breaking etc. In my area there are entire year groups off in local schools, my daughters school only has 1 year out of 4 in (albeit a small school with 1 year intakes) at the moment. A friends child is still in school but there are 8 positive cases in their class, all asymptomatic and only picked up as they are doing the lateral flow tests a couple of times a week.
		
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I disagree. The amount of new cases is due to people catching Covid due to their actions. Testing only goes to highlight that fact.


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## road2ruin (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree. The amount of new cases is due to people catching Covid due to their actions. Testing only goes to highlight that fact.
		
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But those who are being tested are generally in school, that's where the majority of the testing is?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But those who are being tested are generally in school, that's where the majority of the testing is?
		
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You suggested the rise in new cases was due to testing, I'm just pointing out that testing doesn't create new cases, it only finds them. Further to that, if high cases are being created in schools then we need to find a solution to it.

Where is the data available that shows where new cases are being found, I have a suspicion it's more than in schools.  Again the UK is becoming the leading European country for Covid infection rates, we need to be better at controlling it. High infections are really not good news.


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## road2ruin (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You suggested the rise in new cases was due to testing, I'm just pointing out that testing doesn't create new cases, it only finds them. Further to that, if high cases are being created in schools then we need to find a solution to it.

Where is the data available that shows where new cases are being found, I have a suspicion it's more than in schools.  Again the UK is becoming the leading European country for Covid infection rates, we need to be better at controlling it. High infections are really not good news.
		
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Sorry, meant that cases of infections are no doubt increasing however it seems to be driven by those who have yet to be vaccinated which is generally those under the age of 18yrs at the moment, from what I've read this was planned for and the expectation is that cases will continue to rise especially with July 19th on the horizon. The important data though are hospitalisations/deaths and (fortunately) these are staying at relatively low levels and those who are in hospital are not requiring entry to ICU in the majority of instances. 

I can only speak to my experiences locally and we've got entire classes out in a far few schools due to positive cases and we've also had parents testing positive despite having had 2 jabs but again the positive is that we've seen no serious illness.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 1, 2021)

Thursday night is Junior Coaching at the Club, since we restarted (6 weeks) we get anywhere between 15-20 kids attend.

Today I have been contacted by 8 parents to say their child is not attending because they are off school isolating after a classmate has tested positive, all 8 are in different classes in 5 different schools.

This is the first week any have been missing for this reason.


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## Ethan (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You suggested the rise in new cases was due to testing, I'm just pointing out that testing doesn't create new cases, it only finds them. Further to that, if high cases are being created in schools then we need to find a solution to it.

Where is the data available that shows where new cases are being found, I have a suspicion it's more than in schools.  Again the UK is becoming the leading European country for Covid infection rates, we need to be better at controlling it. High infections are really not good news.
		
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road2ruin said:



			Sorry, meant that cases of infections are no doubt increasing however it seems to be driven by those who have yet to be vaccinated which is generally those under the age of 18yrs at the moment, from what I've read this was planned for and the expectation is that cases will continue to rise especially with July 19th on the horizon. The important data though are hospitalisations/deaths and (fortunately) these are staying at relatively low levels and those who are in hospital are not requiring entry to ICU in the majority of instances.

I can only speak to my experiences locally and we've got entire classes out in a far few schools due to positive cases and we've also had parents testing positive despite having had 2 jabs but again the positive is that we've seen no serious illness.
		
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The truth is somewhere in the middle. Testing doesn't increase the number of people with symptoms but it will find more people with very low grade or no symptoms that would otherwise never be recorded. The Govt needs to make it more clear what numbers of tests are done for people with symptoms, contacts of cases and regular school/workplace surveillance.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree. The amount of new cases is due to people catching Covid due to their actions. Testing only goes to highlight that fact.
		
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You have a valid point re "their actions". But many of those actions are now permitted with the restrictions easing. Youngsters ( and ,yes, others),are going to be the ones most mixing. Also, because a lot are not vaccinated, they are going to pick it up and spread it.
It's a double whammy. Lifestyle spreads it more easily: secondly they ( and others) are not vaccinated . If we who are vaccinated behaved in the same manner ( as many do) we do not  catch it enough to be tested. Nor do we spread it as easily.
Put all that together and there are more infections. That was expected to some extent. What seems to be holding is the much lower illness and death amongst the elderly who are vaccinated.
When we reach the situation where all over 18 have been offered double dosed, and there are still infections amongst those who have refused, the country must proceed to normal, surely.?
And in order to do so , I would support vaccination passports.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Totally agree. Whilst there is understandable concern that infections are spiralling, for the first time during this pandemic it looks very much as though hospital admissions and deaths are not following suit a couple of weeks later.

It seems to be that all the government are doing is buying time to really ramp up vaccinations amongst younger people - my 18 year old had his this morning. I fully expect, if admissions and deaths stay low even in the face of high infection rates come July 19, then the remaining shackles will be removed.

And that will be the final indication to us all that a decision has, indeed, been made that *we will have to “live with it”.* There is no alternative.
		
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I very much look forward to "living with it", as the current "existing with it" isn't cutting it for me.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You have a valid point re "their actions". But many of those actions are now permitted with the restrictions easing. Youngsters ( and ,yes, others),are going to be the ones most mixing. Also, because a lot are not vaccinated, they are going to pick it up and spread it.
It's a double whammy. Lifestyle spreads it more easily: secondly they ( and others) are not vaccinated . If we who are vaccinated behaved in the same manner ( as many do) we do not  catch it enough to be tested. Nor do we spread it as easily.
Put all that together and there are more infections. That was expected to some extent. What seems to be holding is the much lower illness and death amongst the elderly who are vaccinated.
When we reach the situation where all over 18 have been offered double dosed, and there are still infections amongst those who have refused, the country must proceed to normal, surely.?
And in order to do so , I would support vaccination passports.
		
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Hopefully I will be proved wrong but I fear this 'Living with it' policy will not end well.


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## Billysboots (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Hopefully I will be proved wrong but I fear this 'Living with it' policy will not end well.
		
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But if vaccines are shown to be working, and hospital admissions and deaths remain at low levels even in the face of high infection rates, surely the only option now is some degree of normality? We can’t expect to have gone to the lengths we have, with the spectacular vaccine rollout, and still ask people to live restricted lives.

Over 60% of the UK’s adults have now been double jabbed. Combine that with the number of infections amongst the younger population who haven’t been vaccinated, and we cannot be far from herd immunity. Normality is now the only option, and if it’s not on offer there will be uproar.

I understand your concern that living with Covid may not end well, but can you articulate that concern? Do you expect the vaccinated to start becoming seriously ill because there does not appear to be any evidence that is likely?

We either live with it, or we carry on with half empty football stadia, an almost blanket ban on foreign travel, not being able to stand at a bar and buy a pint, all the things we take for granted. Living with Covid, as we live with flu and other viruses, is surely the only option. And it’s one which appears to be far closer to being within our grasp than anyone could have dreamed fifteen months ago when we first retreated behind our front doors.


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## road2ruin (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Hopefully I will be proved wrong but I fear this 'Living with it' policy will not end well.
		
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Out of interest what is the alternative? Zero Covid is practically impossible to achieve and even if you did it'd likely to be temporary. We cannot keep the restrictions as they are as some industries will simply not survive and when you have sectors such as hospitality who account for around 7% of the UK's employment we cannot leave them to go under, the result would be a mess and very difficult to come back from. Likewise, children cannot be sent home for 10 days every time a close contact has a positive test, how many of those would have their lives ruined through bad luck?!

I don't see what the alternative to 'living with it' can be?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Out of interest what is the alternative? Zero Covid is practically impossible to achieve and even if you did it'd likely to be temporary. We cannot keep the restrictions as they are as some industries will simply not survive and when you have sectors such as hospitality who account for around 7% of the UK's employment we cannot leave them to go under, the result would be a mess and very difficult to come back from. Likewise, children cannot be sent home for 10 days every time a close contact has a positive test, how many of those would have their lives ruined through bad luck?!

I don't see what the alternative to 'living with it' can be?
		
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Zero Covid is unrealistic, we all know that.  IMO it's still to early to return to normal.   Even with the current vaccination program infection rates are through the roof. If you look at the BBCs national Covid map it's gone from a landscape of pale blue to Brown in such a short period of time.   No matter how we want things to be it's running amok throughout the country and I really fear for a nasty vaccine immune variant coming along, also the potential health issues along the road that Ethan has explained so well.  

If you are content with these high infection rates then so be it, I'm not at all happy with them and to repeat my previous comment ' I don't think it will end well'.   Getting infection rates under control and protecting the economy are intrinsically linked, it's not a case of 'whats the alternative to living with it', it's more a case of how much of it can we live with.


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## road2ruin (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Zero Covid is unrealistic, we all know that.  IMO it's still to early to return to normal.   Even with the current vaccination program infection rates are through the roof. If you look at the BBCs national Covid map it's gone from a landscape of pale blue to Brown in such a short period of time.   No matter how we want things to be it's running amok throughout the country and I really fear for a nasty vaccine immune variant coming along, also the potential health issues along the road that Ethan has explained so well.  

If you are content with these high infection rates then so be it, I'm not at all happy with them and to repeat my previous comment ' I don't think it will end well'.   Getting infection rates under control and protecting the economy are intrinsically linked.
		
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But with the vaccinations meaning that the vast majority of the adult population are covered how much more protected are we ever going to be? Obviously 100% vaccinated is the goal but we cannot keep restrictions until that point and those that are presently left unvaccinated are, fortunately, rarely affected by the virus in a serious way. 

I also wouldn't say I am necessarily happy with the high infection rates however from everything I've read this is coming as no surprise and they do expect the rates to climb even higher in the coming month. The fact that they're expecting this increase but still happy to ease restrictions implies that it's all part of the plan.


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## Billysboots (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			IMO it's still to early to return to normal.   Even with the current vaccination program infection rates are through the roof. If you look at the BBCs national Covid map it's gone from a landscape of pale blue to Brown in such a short period of time.   No matter how we want things to be it's running amok throughout the country and I really fear for a nasty vaccine immune variant coming along, also the potential health issues along the road that Ethan has explained so well.    

If you are content with these high infection rates then so be it, I'm not at all happy with them and to repeat my previous comment ' I don't think it will end well'.   Getting infection rates under control and protecting the economy are intrinsically linked.
		
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I absolutely understand what you are saying BUT now the vaccination program is so far advanced it’s no longer just about infection rates. You simply have to look at the full picture, and that must include hospitalisations and deaths.

Many times in recent weeks we have heard both experts and politicians say that the evidence is growing that vaccines are breaking the link between infections and hospitalisations/death. Once that evidence is irrefutable then the daily infection count ceases to be as important.

I do accept this is going to be a really difficult concept for many, largely because we’ve had nearly eighteen months of these figures being rammed down our throats as though we have constantly been staring into an abyss from which there would never be any escape. For that reason, when the shackles are eventually removed, be that 19 July or later, I sincerely hope the daily reporting of figures in the press and media stops.


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## larmen (Jul 1, 2021)

I am working with the assumption that a lot of people won’t just go back to normal, there will be a lot of overcompensating. And the risk we assume we will have on opening up will be underestimating the effect that’s really going to happen.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But with the vaccinations meaning that the vast majority of the adult population are covered how much more protected are we ever going to be? Obviously 100% vaccinated is the goal but we cannot keep restrictions until that point and those that are presently left unvaccinated are, fortunately, rarely affected by the virus in a serious way.

I also wouldn't say I am necessarily happy with the high infection rates however from everything I've read this is coming as no surprise and they do expect the rates to climb even higher in the coming month. The fact that they're expecting this increase but still happy to ease restrictions implies that it's all part of the plan.
		
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The virus will be looking for ways to propagate it's species and high infection rates will be a potential for it to succeed.  I asked the question earlier if anyone had data on exactly where these increased infections were occuring, I have a suspicion it's not only schools, hospitalisations have increased almost 100% in the last month.     No one and especially myself want these restrictions to go on any longer than necessary but removing them mainly on the premise that people are weary and the hospitality industry are struggling is  for me a worrying concept.   Maybe we could keep something similar to what we have now but with better bubble systems in schools so outbreaks don't impinge on so many kids, overseas holidays arnt going to happen any time soon and most people aren't being asked to give up that much right now.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The virus will be looking for ways to propagate it's species and high infection rates will be a potential for it to succeed.  I asked the question earlier if anyone had data on exactly where these increased infections were occuring, I have a suspicion it's not only schools, hospitalisations have increased almost 100% in the last month.     No one and especially myself want these restrictions to go on any longer than necessary but removing them mainly on the premise that people are weary and the hospitality industry are struggling is  for me a worrying concept.   Maybe we could keep something similar to what we have now but with better bubble systems in schools so outbreaks don't impinge on so many kids, overseas holidays arnt going to happen any time soon and most people aren't being asked to give up that much right now.
		
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Socket, I understand there is concern on higher infection rates. But it isn't like higher infection rates in the past, when vaccination levels were non existent or low, or even moderate.
Testing levels are at their highest- whole classes at schools etc being tested etc
And, yes, testing doesn't give the virus but it finds and reveals it.
Before this level of testing, there were many unknown cases, so rates are not as spectacularly different as the bare figures imply.
The vaccination numbers make all the difference. You must accept that, because the figures, the important figures, tell you so.
Latest intel in my area is that the infection rates  have gone up, are going up
but they are among the young- I've already opined as to why- but the intel also says there are only five- 5- Covid patients in the areas hospitals. Note the plural.
The situation is now different and it can only go one way, the more that vaccinations are implemented.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The virus will be looking for ways to propagate it's species and high infection rates will be a potential for it to succeed.  I asked the question earlier if anyone had data on exactly where these increased infections were occuring, I have a suspicion it's not only schools, hospitalisations have increased almost 100% in the last month.     No one and especially myself want these restrictions to go on any longer than necessary but removing them mainly on the premise that people are weary and the hospitality industry are struggling is  for me a worrying concept.   Maybe we could keep something similar to what we have now but with better bubble systems in schools so outbreaks don't impinge on so many kids, overseas holidays arnt going to happen any time soon and *most people aren't being asked to give up that much right now.*

Click to expand...

Really; care to expand on that?  

Pretty much every aspect of my social life other than golf has been curtailed, holidays likewise.  I've had no direct professional or social interaction with wrk colleagues since this started, and I've had to give up sufficient space in my house to create two workstations so that my wife and I can work from home; I suspect if my employer gets their way that will continue until I reach retirement.  And I don't think I'm anything out of the ordinary in that respect.  I'm really struggling to see how you think people aren't giving much up.


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## Billysboots (Jul 1, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Really; care to expand on that? 

Pretty much every aspect of my social life other than golf has been curtailed, holidays likewise.  I've had no direct professional or social interaction with wrk colleagues since this started, and *I've had to give up sufficient space in my house to create two workstations so that my wife and I can work from home; I suspect if my employer gets their way that will continue until I reach retirement.  And I don't think I'm anything out of the ordinary in that respect*.  I'm really struggling to see how you think people aren't giving much up.
		
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Very true. I’ve read of a number of firms in these parts which have already sold off office space, the expectation being that working from home becomes the long term norm.

I spent my final year in the police service working from home unless called out in my line of work. At first it was a novelty but I quickly grew to hate it. I missed the workplace and social interaction, even with colleagues I usually disliked. 

It was not the way I wanted to see out thirty years’ public service, but at least I only had it for a year. The thought of it becoming the norm would have tipped me over the edge.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 1, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Really; care to expand on that? 

Pretty much every aspect of my social life other than golf has been curtailed, holidays likewise.  I've had no direct professional or social interaction with wrk colleagues since this started, and I've had to give up sufficient space in my house to create two workstations so that my wife and I can work from home; I suspect if my employer gets their way that will continue until I reach retirement.  And I don't think I'm anything out of the ordinary in that respect.  I'm really struggling to see how you think people aren't giving much up.
		
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To think you are in a way one of the lucky ones that has the room to give up space (even though it sounds like too much space)

People in flat shares who are working from their bedroom which becomes their bedroom slash office 

Not good at all 

Only suits the well off with spare rooms they can convert to little offices


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## road2ruin (Jul 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			To think you are in a way one of the lucky ones that has the room to give up space (even though it sounds like too much space)

People in flat shares who are working from their bedroom which becomes their bedroom slash office

Not good at all

Only suits the well off with spare rooms they can convert to little offices
		
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We moved sold our house in August of last year and moved in November, the family who bought our place (3 bed house) were coming from a 2 bed flat which had four of them in including a 2 and 4 year old with no outside space. During the moving process I’ve never had buyers so eager to move, they were desperate to get out having spent most of 2020 locked down there. 

We had messages off then after the move to say how grateful they were to have bought out place and their whole life had changed. Good timing as it came just before the Winter lockdown.


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I absolutely understand what you are saying BUT now the vaccination program is so far advanced it’s no longer just about infection rates. You simply have to look at the full picture, and that must include hospitalisations and deaths.

Many times in recent weeks we have heard both experts and politicians say that the evidence is growing that vaccines are breaking the link between infections and hospitalisations/death. Once that evidence is irrefutable then the daily infection count ceases to be as important.

I do accept this is going to be a really difficult concept for many, largely because we’ve had nearly eighteen months of these figures being rammed down our throats as though we have constantly been staring into an abyss from which there would never be any escape. For that reason, when the shackles are eventually removed, be that 19 July or later, I sincerely hope the daily reporting of figures in the press and media stops.
		
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I kind of agree with you but also with SR.

I give a passing glance to the figures, and then only if there is a headline, “sudden increase.” Vaccines do appear to be breaking the link but infection rates do have to be managed(Restrictions?).

Both you and SR failed to include the danger of the next variant, echo, foxtrot or golf, being more dangerous and the vaccine less effective. Hospitalisation and deaths are down but what happens when a new, stronger variant pitches up?

I‘m all for easing things but in a managed way with one eye on possible consequences.


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## road2ruin (Jul 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Both you and SR failed to include the danger of the next variant, echo, foxtrot or golf, being more dangerous and the vaccine less effective. Hospitalisation and deaths are down but what happens when a new, stronger variant pitches up?
		
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Without sounding defeatist isn't this inevitable what path we take in the UK? Mutations and variants are going to appear around the world especially in places that are behind in the vaccination process and one of the things that the last 18 months has shown is that they will arrive at our shores at some point, there is little we can do about that. We just have to hope that, like all of the previous mutations, the next ones are no scarier than the last and the vaccines will prove effective which they have done to date.


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## Kellfire (Jul 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I kind of agree with you but also with SR.

I give a passing glance to the figures, and then only if there is a headline, “sudden increase.” Vaccines do appear to be breaking the link but infection rates do have to be managed(Restrictions?).

Both you and SR failed to include the danger of the next variant, echo, foxtrot or golf, being more dangerous and the vaccine less effective. Hospitalisation and deaths are down but what happens when a new, stronger variant pitches up?

I‘m all for easing things but in a managed way with one eye on possible consequences.
		
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I’m excited to see if they veer off into the phonetic alphabet for the next variant now! 😃


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## Billysboots (Jul 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I kind of agree with you but also with SR.

I give a passing glance to the figures, and then only if there is a headline, “sudden increase.” Vaccines do appear to be breaking the link but infection rates do have to be managed(Restrictions?).

Both you and SR failed to include the danger of the next variant, echo, foxtrot or golf, being more dangerous and the vaccine less effective. Hospitalisation and deaths are down but what happens when a new, stronger variant pitches up?

I‘m all for easing things but in a managed way with one eye on possible consequences.
		
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I’ve not disregarded variants, but to date every variant which has appeared, each having whipped the press into a frenzy of lurid headlines, has been combatted by current vaccines.

We can’t live our lives for ever more on a “what if” basis. We simply can’t. The vaccines are doing their job, the public can see that (well, most can), and they are very unlikely to accept being told that they still have to live their lives under ongoing restrictions for an undefined period on the off chance a variant crops up which evades the vaccines.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 2, 2021)

One thing Ave noticed through this Covid pandemic. It has affected everyone differently. Be it contracting the Covid virus itself. Then either dying or getting just an headache. 
Be it peoples offices closing down and having to work from home. Some people are really really struggling. Some people are loving it. Brother and sis in law saved over £3k last year in not paying train fares. Not to mention travel times each way. Financial wise there loving it. But there missing interaction. 
Some people have lost there Jobs. Some folk like lorry drivers are now on a wage bonanza.
Holidays, I think everyone’s missed out on those. Yet holidays at home are booming. Travelling abroad still is a Major problem.
Some folk are skint, others have money to burn.
Wherever you fall in the above categories, for me it has helped to mould people’s opinions on how this Covid pandemic should be handled. 
For me 2020 was a right “ anus horribllus“. Compared to some we got off light. This year has not been much better. Thoughts with those still struggling. Gotta agree with those that say Covid is here to stay for sometime yet. ☹️


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I kind of agree with you but also with SR.

I give a passing glance to the figures, and then only if there is a headline, “sudden increase.” Vaccines do appear to be breaking the link but infection rates do have to be managed(Restrictions?).

Both you and SR failed to include the danger of the next variant, echo, foxtrot or golf, being more dangerous and the vaccine less effective. Hospitalisation and deaths are down but what happens when a new, stronger variant pitches up?

I‘m all for easing things but in a managed way with one eye on possible consequences.
		
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I have made the point in recent posts.about the increased infection rates and the concern that they will produce a more virulent form of the virus.


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I have made the point in recent posts.about the increased infection rates and the concern that they will produce a more virulent form of the virus.
		
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Apologies, yes you did. I missed it scan reading your posts.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Really; care to expand on that?

Pretty much every aspect of my social life other than golf has been curtailed, holidays likewise.  I've had no direct professional or social interaction with wrk colleagues since this started, and I've had to give up sufficient space in my house to create two workstations so that my wife and I can work from home; I suspect if my employer gets their way that will continue until I reach retirement.  And I don't think I'm anything out of the ordinary in that respect.  I'm really struggling to see how you think people aren't giving much up.
		
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I wouldn't consider you working from home giving up a great deal, ok it's an inconvenience but you can meet up with friends, go to a pub or restaurant, go on holiday in the UK etc.  Like I say it's an inconvenience but it's not exactly life in the trenches is it and I'm sure you could live with it a bit longer.   I'm not suggesting we continue with restrictions for ever, all I'm saying is we need to get these increased infection rates under control.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



*To think you are in a way one of the lucky ones that has the room to give up space* (even though it sounds like too much space)

People in flat shares who are working from their bedroom which becomes their bedroom slash office

Not good at all

Only suits the well off with spare rooms they can convert to little offices
		
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Am I; not sure how you have jumped to the conclusion that we have the space to give up?  The ground floor is pretty much open plan, and my office is the kitchen; when the Mrs is working she is restricted to when she can use the kitchen due to phone calls & Teams/Zoom calls.  On her day off she hasn't got the freedom to use the ground floor of the house as she would like because it's my office.

Mrs. BiM is working from a bedroom dressing table, so as you say, not good at all.

Our home has been to a degree taken over by both our employers to provide their office space and we are in effect living at work 24/7.  Taken over space might have been a better description than given up, but it amounts to the same.  The whole working from home caper has also highlighted who works & who doesn't, who is a team player & who isn't.  I think a lot of people still going into work don't appreciate how lucky they are.

Don't get me wrong, I know plenty of people have had it worse, and I appreciate the fact that we both still have jobs.  But it comes at a cost, and we are coming to the way of thinking that it is not one worth paying.


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## GB72 (Jul 2, 2021)

I guess the point is now that those who are still suffering because of the restrictions are those who have been hardest hit throughout including those who still cannot work. If I was being selfish, I could quite happily say that I could live as we are for the foreseeable future. Aside from a nice holiday and being able to stand at the bar and chat in the pub, everything else is pretty normal but I am lucky because of that. Again, being selfish, I am happy at the moment as we are as I feel safer because of the restrictions but I know that this cannot go on forever and the day has to come when we try and live normal lives. As such, I support removing restrictions even though they make no difference to me  and, in some cases, are detrimental. There are people who need restrictions to lift to keep going and I think the time has come to take them into account. 

On the bigger picture, I know that there will be variants and potentially more pain and suffering but I am not sure what more we can do to alleviate that. We cannot stay as we are indefinitely and, however hard a pill it is to swallow, there has to be a time where we decide that nothing more can be done and that we have to live with covid being around. 

That said, I can see a semi freedom day coming with some restrictions and some mask wearing still in place.


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## GB72 (Jul 2, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Am I; not sure how you have jumped to the conclusion that we have the space to give up?  The ground floor is pretty much open plan, and my office is the kitchen; when the Mrs is working she is restricted to when she can use the kitchen due to phone calls & Teams/Zoom calls.  On her day off she hasn't got the freedom to use the ground floor of the house as she would like because it's my office.

Mrs. BiM is working from a bedroom dressing table, so as you say, not good at all.

Our home has been to a degree taken over by both our employers to provide their office space and we are in effect living at work 24/7.  Taken over space might have been a better description than given up, but it amounts to the same.  The whole working from home caper has also highlighted who works & who doesn't, who is a team player & who isn't.  I think a lot of people still going into work don't appreciate how lucky they are.

Don't get me wrong, I know plenty of people have had it worse, and I appreciate the fact that we both still have jobs.  But it comes at a cost, and we are coming to the way of thinking that it is not one worth paying.
		
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I am with you on that, so lucky that I work at what has been derided as an old school, even out of date firm. Whilst other firms moved to open plan and hot desking, we stayed in our traditional old building where most people have their own office and, as such, we have all been able to come in to work through most of the pandemic.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



*I wouldn't consider you working from home giving up a great deal*, ok it's an inconvenience but you can meet up with friends, go to a pub or restaurant, go on holiday in the UK etc.  Like I say it's an inconvenience but it's not exactly life in the trenches is it and I'm sure you could live with it a bit longer.   I'm not suggesting we continue with restrictions for ever, all I'm saying is we need to get these increased infection rates under control.
		
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You don't consider something I have never wanted to do, and actively dislike doing, a great inconvenience?  To you it might not seem it, to me it is a huge imposition.  we weren't great pub goers, so going to those isn't a huge attraction, similarly we didn't eat out that much.  Friends are mainly spread far and wide so seeing them not quite as easy as you suggest.  What we did spend time doing has been severely curtailed if not completely stopped so it's a little more than a slight inconvenience to us, and living with a little longer might be a bit harder than it seems from your high horse.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2021)

I think I've made my point enough times now.   There's not much point in me reiterating it, I've heard other contrary views but they've not convinced me that I should change it.   I appreciate others feel different about where we go next and I understand why they might think that way but it's just not for me.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			You don't consider something I have never wanted to do, and actively dislike doing, a great inconvenience?  To you it might not seem it, to me it is a huge imposition.  we weren't great pub goers, so going to those isn't a huge attraction, similarly we didn't eat out that much.  Friends are mainly spread far and wide so seeing them not quite as easy as you suggest.  What we did spend time doing has been severely curtailed if not completely stopped so it's a little more than a slight inconvenience to us, and living with a little longer might be a bit harder than it seems from your high horse.
		
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I didn't say it wasn't an inconvenience, I said it's not giving up a great deal and in the way of things it's not.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 2, 2021)

BBC News - Asda to allow permanent hybrid working for offices
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57693065

It seems even companies are split on whether it is better for folk to continue working from home. At least ASDA are giving its employee's a choice. I don't think one shoe fits all.


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## road2ruin (Jul 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			BBC News - Asda to allow permanent hybrid working for offices
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57693065

It seems even companies are split on whether it is better for folk to continue working from home. At least ASDA are giving its employee's a choice. I don't think one shoe fits all.
		
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I think a lot will depend on lifestage. In my 20's I lived in a flat and the thought of working at home doesn't bear thinking about plus I thoroughly enjoyed the after work drinking and the social aspect of being in an office. I guess for many as they get older, have a bit more space indoors and don't really miss having a London commute the thought of WFM becomes more appealing and after work drinking is less of a draw!!


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## BiMGuy (Jul 2, 2021)

Personally I have zero interest in going back to working in an office. I can perform the role I currently have, more easily and effectively working at home. The business get more work from me due to not having to travel up and down the country. 

But that doesn't suit everyone. Some of our office based staff are desperate to get back to the office full time. 
Most of the people working in my business are site based and cannot work from home. That puts the business in a difficult position when making a decision on where predominantly office based staff work from.


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## GB72 (Jul 2, 2021)

I am the other way around, I need a work/life separation and so, whilst I will work late etc to get things done, my work never comes into my home and my work emails never go to my personal phone or computer. I have a personality that means I would feel compelled to look at files and emails at nights and weekends if they were in my house. Work understand that they have access to me whilst I am in the office but not in any way once I leave.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I am the other way around, I need a work/life separation and so, whilst I will work late etc to get things done, my work never comes into my home and my work emails never go to my personal phone or computer. I have a personality that means I would feel compelled to look at files and emails at nights and weekends if they were in my house. Work understand that they have access to me whilst I am in the office but not in any way once I leave.
		
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I am lucky that I have learnt to switch off from it. I have separated work & personal phones. So the work laptop and phone get turned off when I finish for the day.

I'll often get up and start work early, but I never email or message anyone at work before 8:30.


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## GB72 (Jul 2, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I am lucky that I have learnt to switch off from it. I have separated work & personal phones. So the work laptop and phone get turned off when I finish for the day.

I'll often get up and start work early, but I never email or message anyone at work before 8:30.
		
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Wish i could do that. If there is work in the house then I feel a compulsion to deal with it. Guess that would go over time if I worked from home more but a nice twenty minute drive between home and the office is perfect to get me in and out of work mode.


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## road2ruin (Jul 2, 2021)

Updated figures (as of yesterday) showing that things are still going in the right direction despite the increase in infections....note how much higher the rise is in infections when compared with the 2nd Wave but the Hospitalisations and Deaths are far lower.


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Updated figures (as of yesterday) showing that things are still going in the right direction despite the increase in infections....*note how much higher the rise is in infections when compared with the 2nd Wave* but the Hospitalisations and Deaths are far lower.
		
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That is wrong, I believe. In Look at the number of tests being carried out now vs January and December and the percentage of people testing positive. If the testing done today would've been the same back then, those numbers would've looked even worse. UK is doing close to 140% more tests today compared to back in December and 55% more than January.

Numbers below are taken from:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/testing

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases


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## Ethan (Jul 2, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			That is wrong, I believe. In Look at the number of tests being carried out now vs January and December and the percentage of people testing positive. If the testing done today would've been the same back then, those numbers would've looked even worse. UK is doing close to 140% more tests today compared to back in December and 55% more than January.

Numbers below are taken from:

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/testing

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases


View attachment 37348

Click to expand...


This data is difficult to interpret, because what we really need to know is (a) the number of people with symptoms tested and % positivity, (b) contacts of cases tested and %, (c) targeted surge testing and (d) other routine tests in schools and workplaces, epidemiological studies and %. 

The highest % positivity rate will be in (a), but for the purposes of longitudinal comparisons, which is what these trend lines are good for, we could stick to that as a metric rather than drowning out useful info with all the LFTs being done now. Obviously the overall number of positive cases is down anyway you look at it, but it would be interesting to know which categories they came from.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I guess the point is now that those who are still suffering because of the restrictions are those who have been hardest hit throughout including those who still cannot work. If I was being selfish, I could quite happily say that I could live as we are for the foreseeable future. Aside from a nice holiday and being able to stand at the bar and chat in the pub, everything else is pretty normal but I am lucky because of that. Again, being selfish, I am happy at the moment as we are as I feel safer because of the restrictions but I know that this cannot go on forever and the day has to come when we try and live normal lives. As such, I support removing restrictions even though they make no difference to me  and, in some cases, are detrimental. There are people who need restrictions to lift to keep going and I think the time has come to take them into account.

On the bigger picture, I know that there will be variants and potentially more pain and suffering but I am not sure what more we can do to alleviate that. We cannot stay as we are indefinitely and, however hard a pill it is to swallow, there has to be a time where we decide that nothing more can be done and that we have to live with covid being around.

That said, I can see a semi freedom day coming with some restrictions and some mask wearing still in place.
		
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You capture the perspective of the many ‘we’ve managed and done OK’ and understand the situation and dire circumstances of the ‘fewer but still many‘ absolutely perfectly....those who have been hardest hit by the pandemic are now getting completely ground into the ground.  Its as if they are simply a difficult nuisance in the great scheme of things dealing with the pandemic, and as they have been so ground down then a few months more isn’t going to make any difference for them.

And so and even given my previous preference for a risk averse and cautious approach - at this time and given the status of the vaccination programme - for the 19th  I say UNLOCK!


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## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You capture the perspective of the many ‘we’ve managed and done OK’ and understand the situation and dire circumstances of the ‘fewer but still many‘ absolutely perfectly....those who have been hardest hit by the pandemic are now getting completely ground into the ground.  Its as if they are simply a difficult nuisance in the great scheme of things dealing with the pandemic, and as they have been so ground down then a few months more isn’t going to make any difference for them.

And so and even given my previous preference for a risk averse and cautious approach - at this time and given the status of the vaccination programme - for the 19th  I say UNLOCK!
		
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Apart from face masks UNLOCK is already with us judging by the way things are happening in the SW.


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## road2ruin (Jul 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Apart from face masks UNLOCK is already with us judging by the way things are happening in the SW.
		
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If you mean Wimbledon it’s a test even that requires a Covid Pass for entry so that’s not unlocked for a lot of places that cannot have comparable capacities etc.


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## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If you mean Wimbledon it’s a test even that requires a Covid Pass for entry so that’s not unlocked for a lot of places that cannot have comparable capacities etc.
		
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SW meaning South West, not SW1


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			SW meaning South West, not SW1
		
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The ERP...really?  Telling us nothing for the decision for the 19th.  See Wimbledon and the Euros.  Nothing will be analysed from them by the 5th July when decision on 19th is to be made.  So slippage likely.


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## Old Skier (Jul 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The ERP...really?  Telling us nothing for the decision for the 19th.  See Wimbledon and the Euros.  Nothing will be analysed from them by the 5th July when decision on 19th is to be made.  So slippage likely.
		
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?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 2, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The ERP...really?  Telling us nothing for the decision for the 19th.  See Wimbledon and the Euros.  Nothing will be analysed from them by the 5th July when decision on 19th is to be made.  So slippage likely.
		
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Pardon?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Pardon?
		
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Events Research Programme


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## Old Skier (Jul 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Events Research Programme
		
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Not sure what that has to do with how people who have come to the SW are acting.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 3, 2021)

Just got a message from son's school, his year 2 class having to isolate again...

Two weeks left in the term, hopefully he can go back in for the last week.


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## harpo_72 (Jul 3, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Just got a message from son's school, his year 2 class having to isolate again...

Two weeks left in the term, hopefully he can go back in for the last week.
		
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Doubt it once closed they stay closed until the new term , from our experience


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure what that has to do with how people who have come to the SW are acting.
		
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It was in reference to Wimbledon.


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2021)

A sobering reminder of times past (here in the UK), with a view from across the world 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57717144
In some ways shocking that so many months into this, it's still happening, but in other ways not so.

Thankful of (and hopeful that) the apparent impact of vaccination here continues.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

Getting irritated hearing folk give ‘we’re all fed up with this now’ as the reason for their wanting all restrictions lifted. There are very good ’data-based’ reasons to support lifting of most or all restrictions - but please - getting ‘fed up‘ with living with the current restrictions is IMO not a good reason.  So please don‘t tell me it’s yours as it risks the wrong sort of response from the decision makers.


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## Whereditgo (Jul 5, 2021)

One of the 20 somethings in the office decided to go to the pub to watch the England vs Germany game, a ticketed event with tables of 6 and a band on after the game. All within the guidelines, but perhaps not a sensible/responsible choice. Surprise, surprise the social distancing went out the window as the alcohol was consumed and the goals went in. By Friday he is coughing and spluttering in the office, goes for a test, positive result on Saturday.

So now I am self isolating and working from home until close of play next Monday. I have a project starting today, another starting next Monday, site visits booked later this week in Kent and Wales, the Mrs works in the NHS and has a unique role that will not easily be able to cover should she have to self isolate, the lad is supposed to be doing his DofE expedition next weekend, so if I test positive he will have to self isolate and miss that, semi-final of the club foursomes was booked for Thursday and closing date for the round is Sunday, suffice to say I am not a happy bunny this morning!

ah well! as long as they had a great night at the footie hey!


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## Tashyboy (Jul 5, 2021)

Just having a catch up with the world and seen the AZ batch numbers that have not yet been approved by the EMA (4120Z001, 4120Z002, 4120Z003). In essence it could stop you travelling to Europe. Guess who had 4120Z001 for his first jab. 😳😖☹️
I can only apologise coz I popped into Wales a couple of weeks ago. 😁 joking aside Ave no real plans to go abroad so it don’t really affect me. But until it is passed by the EMA, if you plan on travelling, I would check your vaccination card 👍


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just having a catch up with the world and seen the AZ batch numbers that have not yet been approved by the EMA (4120Z001, 4120Z002, 4120Z003). In essence it could stop you travelling to Europe. Guess who had 4120Z001 for his first jab. 😳😖☹️
I can only apologise coz I popped into Wales a couple of weeks ago. 😁 joking aside Ave no real plans to go abroad so it don’t really affect me. But until it is passed by the EMA, if you plan on travelling, I would check your vaccination card 👍
		
Click to expand...

This is a bureaucratic issue, and will be fixed. AZ/SII did not apply to add the manufacturing site in India. It is all down to them. In the meantime, individual EU countries can choose to accept these batches, which they will. 

The approval of new sites is important because the regulator needs to know that quality control is up to scratch. There have been a number of plant closures recently by FDA, EMA and others for this reason. This should not be an issue for SII which is a reputable and well known manufacturer. 

Interestingly, the Indian product also has a different trade name, presumably to allow market segmentation between the first world and the developing world brands in due course and differing pricing structures.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is a bureaucratic issue, and will be fixed. AZ/SII did not apply to add the manufacturing site in India. It is all down to them. In the meantime, individual EU countries can choose to accept these batches, which they will.

The approval of new sites is important because the regulator needs to know that quality control is up to scratch. There have been a number of plant closures recently by FDA, EMA and others for this reason. This should not be an issue for SII which is a reputable and well known manufacturer.

Interestingly, the Indian product also has a different trade name, presumably to allow market segmentation between the first world and the developing world brands in due course and differing pricing structures.
		
Click to expand...

Is it another case of media making an issue bigger than it is 🤔👍


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 5, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Just got a message from son's school, his year 2 class having to isolate again...

Two weeks left in the term, hopefully he can go back in for the last week.
		
Click to expand...

My daughter a teacher is on her second isolation now.
Did ten days ,only back in school one day and the bubble is shut down again for another ten days.
This is the norm across the country now apparently.
This seems a bit premature to be lifting all restrictions on the 19th.
I think in public places the masks should stay especially busses trains etc.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Is it another case of media making an issue bigger than it is 🤔👍
		
Click to expand...

Yes. It also fed into the culture war as an EU bashing opportunity for the Mail and their not very discriminating readership.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 5, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughter a teacher is on her second isolation now.
Did ten days ,only back in school one day and the bubble is shut down again for another ten days.
This is the norm across the country now apparently.
This seems a bit premature to be lifting all restrictions on the 19th.
I think in public places the masks should stay especially busses trains etc.
		
Click to expand...

Is it premature or is it the isolation system being out of date for the current situation, ie the vulnerable and older population being double jabbed, hospital numbers not spiking. The current system is too sensitive right now, it needs realigning.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 5, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Is it premature or is it the isolation system being out of date for the current situation, ie the vulnerable and older population being double jabbed, hospital numbers not spiking. The current system is too sensitive right now, it needs realigning.
		
Click to expand...

Yes you are correct.
It’s politicians not making decisions!
You can get 60,000 in Wembley next week.
But can’t keep 30 kids in school.???


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## yandabrown (Jul 5, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes you are correct.
It’s politicians not making decisions!
You can get 60,000 in Wembley next week.
But can’t keep 30 kids in school.???
		
Click to expand...

It only needs one of the kids to not want to be in school and spike their Lateral Flow test with any acidic drink to create a false result - I can't think of any kids that might want to do that [/end sarcasm]


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## Whereditgo (Jul 5, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			One of the 20 somethings in the office decided to go to the pub to watch the England vs Germany game, a ticketed event with tables of 6 and a band on after the game. All within the guidelines, but perhaps not a sensible/responsible choice. Surprise, surprise the social distancing went out the window as the alcohol was consumed and the goals went in. By Friday he is coughing and spluttering in the office, goes for a test, positive result on Saturday.

So now I am self isolating and working from home until close of play next Monday. I have a project starting today, another starting next Monday, site visits booked later this week in Kent and Wales, the Mrs works in the NHS and has a unique role that will not easily be able to cover should she have to self isolate, the lad is supposed to be doing his DofE expedition next weekend, so if I test positive he will have to self isolate and miss that, semi-final of the club foursomes was booked for Thursday and closing date for the round is Sunday, suffice to say I am not a happy bunny this morning!

ah well! as long as they had a great night at the footie hey!
		
Click to expand...

Annnnnnnd the test result comes back positive


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

Wembley will still be 30,000 below capacity, Silverstone the week after will have a ful capacity of 140,000!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Annnnnnnd the test result comes back positive 

Click to expand...

Yep it’s going all the way back to last summer - restrictions get ignored when the pubs open and events are on

We have seen a spike in the area , schools closed , all back to people watching the England match last Saturday , venue ignored restrictions, alcohol started to flow and loads of cases. It’s only going to get worse with the repurcussions from this Saturday.

It’s making a dramatic effect on people’s lives because as you say people are catching it because of their stupid actions and others are having to self isolate which has a huge affect on their lives


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## road2ruin (Jul 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep it’s going all the way back to last summer - restrictions get ignored when the pubs open and events are on

We have seen a spike in the area , schools closed , all back to people watching the England match last Saturday , venue ignored restrictions, alcohol started to flow and loads of cases. It’s only going to get worse with the repurcussions from this Saturday.

It’s making a dramatic effect on people’s lives because as you say people are catching it because of their stupid actions and others are having to self isolate which has a huge affect on their lives
		
Click to expand...

Again, purely anecdotal so no idea if this is the same in other parts but I know of parents in our daughters school that have turned off the 'Contact Tracing' part of their NHS app to avoid getting pinged. With things getting back to normal on the social front they don't want to have to spend 10 days isolating because they may have come into contact who later tests positive.


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## DanFST (Jul 5, 2021)

25 cases per 100k in Suffolk.
0 deaths in the last 2 weeks.


Very high vaccine take-up amongst all ages. Ready to open.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Again, purely anecdotal so no idea if this is the same in other parts but I know of parents in our daughters school that have turned off the 'Contact Tracing' part of their NHS app to avoid getting pinged. With things getting back to normal on the social front they don't want to have to spend 10 days isolating because they may have come into contact who later tests positive.
		
Click to expand...

I know loads that aren’t bothering to scan when they enter places - we had our Capts day this weekend and I know many people didn’t bother to scan in.


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## Whereditgo (Jul 5, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Again, purely anecdotal so no idea if this is the same in other parts but I know of parents in our daughters school that have turned off the 'Contact Tracing' part of their NHS app to avoid getting pinged. With things getting back to normal on the social front they don't want to have to spend 10 days isolating because they may have come into contact who later tests positive.
		
Click to expand...

I was contacted by phone from NHS Track and Trace, still nothing showing on the app, other than an alert to say I must self isolate, but that was off the back of me entering my positive test result.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			25 cases per 100k in Suffolk.
0 deaths in the last 2 weeks.


Very high vaccine take-up amongst all ages. Ready to open. 

Click to expand...

It is not just about deaths.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			25 cases per 100k in Suffolk.
0 deaths in the last 2 weeks.


Very high vaccine take-up amongst all ages. Ready to open. 

Click to expand...

Open everything, but with two relatively non-intrusive requirements on us - when indoor or in tight crowds wear a mask and when outside try a keep distancing.  And if an indoor venue chooses to require a negative test of you then just accept that with grace given that that is their prerogative and if they then choose to allow masks to not be worn. I don’t know about you but I don’t live my life in a ‘me-bubble’.

A public information ad on commercial radio at the moment has two guys talking, one has a bad cough and is dismissing it as hay fever, the other tells him to consider that it might be covid, and also seems to imply that he might spread infection, and so go and get checked.  Rather helps make the case for continued wearing of masks -  vaccinated we can prick up the virus and it can make us ill, and we can still spread it.  I’ll listen out for it again just to check that I haven’t misheard.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Open everything, but with two relatively non-intrusive requirements on us - when indoor or in tight crowds wear a mask and when outside try a keep distancing.
		
Click to expand...

2 Weeks ago the North West had the Top Ten areas in cases in England, now it is the North East with 7 of the Top Ten areas with Newcastle having 616 per 100K.

Were next? Suggesting “Open Everything” is ridiculous!

“While the North East is now the new COVID regional hotspot, a handful of areas in other parts of England are also seeing a sharp jump in cases.

Tamworth in Staffordshire currently has the second highest rate in England at 657.1 cases per 100,000 people, up from 202.1 the week before.

Oxford has the fifth highest rate at 589.7, up from 114.8.

North East Lincolnshire, at number 12, has seen its rate jump from 260.1 to 518.9.

Overall, England's national rate now stands at 223.2 per 100,000 people - the highest since the start of February.

*Out of the 315 local authority areas in England, 312 saw a week-on-week rise in coronavirus rates in the seven days to June 30 - with only three seeing a fall.*

Some 264 areas (84%) are now recording rates above 100 per 100,000 people, the highest proportion since the second week of February.”


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			2 Weeks ago the North West had the Top Ten areas in cases in England, now it is the North East with 7 of the Top Ten areas with Newcastle having 616 per 100K.

Were next? Suggesting “Open Everything” is ridiculous!

“While the North East is now the new COVID regional hotspot, a handful of areas in other parts of England are also seeing a sharp jump in cases.

Tamworth in Staffordshire currently has the second highest rate in England at 657.1 cases per 100,000 people, up from 202.1 the week before.

Oxford has the fifth highest rate at 589.7, up from 114.8.

North East Lincolnshire, at number 12, has seen its rate jump from 260.1 to 518.9.

Overall, England's national rate now stands at 223.2 per 100,000 people - the highest since the start of February.

*Out of the 315 local authority areas in England, 312 saw a week-on-week rise in coronavirus rates in the seven days to June 30 - with only three seeing a fall.*

Some 264 areas (84%) are now recording rates above 100 per 100,000 people, the highest proportion since the second week of February.”
		
Click to expand...

We’re seeing numbers creeping up but not significantly so locally. However, Malaga had 500 new cases last Thursday alone… holiday time started 2 weeks ago when the schools closed. Lots of pink Northern Europeans and northern Spaniards. A couple of bars down on the playa have closed due to staff testing positive.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We’re seeing numbers creeping up but not significantly so locally. However, Malaga had 500 new cases last Thursday alone… holiday time started 2 weeks ago when the schools closed. Lots of pink Northern Europeans and northern Spaniards. A couple of bars down on the playa have closed due to staff testing positive.
		
Click to expand...

Something going wrong somewhere.


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## Paperboy (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Something going wrong somewhere.
View attachment 37374

View attachment 37375

Click to expand...

But what about hospitalizations? Surely that is now one of the key factors. How much are the rest of Europe now testing?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Something going wrong somewhere.
View attachment 37374

View attachment 37375

Click to expand...

Is it not explained by the small print ?
 “ the number of confirmed cases is lower than the number of actual cases. The main reason for that is limited testing”
I don’t have the figures to hand but I bet the U.K. is doing far more testing than the rest of the world.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

I don't know if they're available but to be able to compare countries we need % of tests that are coming back positive. If we're testing a million a day and getting 25000 positives we're at 2.5% positive results. Another country might only have 5000 positive results but if they're only doing 100k tests they're at 5%.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Wembley will still be 30,000 below capacity, Silverstone the week after will have a ful capacity of 140,000!
		
Click to expand...

So that's 50k at Wembley. Silverstone is way way bigger than 3 Wembley stadiums so in theory it should be safer👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			2 Weeks ago the North West had the Top Ten areas in cases in England, now it is the North East with 7 of the Top Ten areas with Newcastle having 616 per 100K.

Were next? Suggesting “Open Everything” is ridiculous!

“While the North East is now the new COVID regional hotspot, a handful of areas in other parts of England are also seeing a sharp jump in cases.

Tamworth in Staffordshire currently has the second highest rate in England at 657.1 cases per 100,000 people, up from 202.1 the week before.

Oxford has the fifth highest rate at 589.7, up from 114.8.

North East Lincolnshire, at number 12, has seen its rate jump from 260.1 to 518.9.

Overall, England's national rate now stands at 223.2 per 100,000 people - the highest since the start of February.

*Out of the 315 local authority areas in England, 312 saw a week-on-week rise in coronavirus rates in the seven days to June 30 - with only three seeing a fall.*

Some 264 areas (84%) are now recording rates above 100 per 100,000 people, the highest proportion since the second week of February.”
		
Click to expand...

So what would you not have opened?  And how would you wish the government to compensate those self-employed who have worked booked for the weeks after the 19th on the assumption that that work is going to happen but failure to reopen fully that income will be completely lost - given that for many there is currently nothing in place to assess and compensate for that loss.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So that's 50k at Wembley. Silverstone is way way bigger than 3 Wembley stadiums so in theory it should be safer👍
		
Click to expand...

In theory yes, but it’s also 70,000 more travelling, 70,000 needing more security, feeding, etc.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			But what about hospitalizations? Surely that is now one of the key factors. How much are the rest of Europe now testing?
		
Click to expand...




Fade and Die said:



			Is it not explained by the small print ?
“ the number of confirmed cases is lower than the number of actual cases. The main reason for that is limited testing”
I don’t have the figures to hand but I bet the U.K. is doing far more testing than the rest of the world.
		
Click to expand...

No argument from me, but if we are worse off now than what we were when the full lift was delayed, how can it be unlocked.

Imo, we are either not getting the full facts or the information used for making the decision is being changed.

Whether another Nation is doing more testing or not, our figures are still climbing and at an alarming rate.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what would you not have opened?  And how would you wish the government to compensate those self-employed who have worked booked for the weeks after the 19th on the assumption that that work is going to happen but failure to reopen fully that income will be completely lost - given that for many there is currently nothing in place to assess and compensate for that loss.
		
Click to expand...

So it’s back to be about your Son and not the bigger picture.


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## GB72 (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So it’s back to be about your Son and not the bigger picture.

Click to expand...

To be fair, his son is the bigger picture now. There are a few industries that have been massively hit throughout this and continue to be hit. Semi relaxation of rules etc is not going to help them. So what do we do now. 64% of the sdult population have had 2 jabs, over 80% had had one jab. That is pretty much as protected as we can be. A time has to come when we have to try and return to some form of normality. and better now in the summer than in the harder conditions of the winter months. 

It would be easy for me to profess the benefits of keeping restrictions. I have not lost anything during lockdown, I have worked every day and had a garden to sit in when stuck at home and, to be honest, the thought of normality makes me nervous as hell but I am in a very privileged position and so I have to look at it from the other side. If I had lost everything during lockdown and been struck at home with no money and not a days work in 18 months then suspect my outlook would be very different. 

Maybe this is the time to come back out of our shells.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So that's 50k at Wembley. Silverstone is way way bigger than 3 Wembley stadiums so in theory it should be safer👍
		
Click to expand...

None of it is “safe” - it’s a false statement , there are going to be spikes from the football because of the crowding going in and out , and there will be spikes from the F1 and the Tennis.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 5, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			None of it is “safe” - it’s a false statement , there are going to be spikes from the football because of the crowding going in and out , and there will be spikes from the F1 and the Tennis.
		
Click to expand...

I didnt say safe, I said safer. Imo its as safe as it can be, everyone has to either have been jabbed twice or produce a negative test, two over the weekend if you're doing the whole weekend.


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## jim8flog (Jul 5, 2021)

Schools - there must be something going on, hardly anybody has been parking in our close lately and a definite decline in the numbers walking past my house.

So there are some positives


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## fundy (Jul 5, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I didnt say safe, I said safer. Imo its as safe as it can be, everyone has to either have been jabbed twice or produce a negative test, two over the weekend if you're doing the whole weekend.
		
Click to expand...

yeah no one will be getting round that will they


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## RichA (Jul 5, 2021)

Ditching of face masks from 2 weeks today. I don't get it. It costs the country nothing, harms nobody and reduces the volume of infectious airborne particles. 
I'm happy for other folks that hospitality venues and all other business will be fully reopening, but why ditch the masks.
As a daily user of busy public transport, I'd be interested to know if it's just me that has concerns.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

Seems as though it's now financial reasons rather than health reasons making the decision on reopening everything. Two weeks ago we were told that step 4 would be pushed back. Infections are now far higher than they were but we're getting rid of all restrictions. Surely as a minimum face masks on public transport and enclosed spaces should have been kept. Is this a government buck passing exercise where the public will be blamed for further rises because they didn't follow "guidance" on masks now it's no longer the law?


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

RichA said:



			Ditching of face masks from 2 weeks today. I don't get it. It costs the country nothing, harms nobody and reduces the volume of infectious airborne particles.
I'm happy for other folks that hospitality venues and all other business will be fully reopening, but why ditch the masks.
As a daily user of busy public transport, I'd be interested to know if it's just me that has concerns.
		
Click to expand...

The reasoning on masks is utterly contradictory. On the one hand, it is to give people "personal freedom", but Whitty and Vallance just confirmed that the main purpose is to protect others. Therefore, Johnson is saying that people should have the personal freedom to choose whether to protect others or not? That is insane, and there is ample evidence that many people don't give a toss about anybody else. Precisely the same logic could extend to drink-driving and speed limits. Put up "advisory" signs and let the good sense of others determine how much they drink before driving home, and at what speed. 

There is no reason that indoor venues couldn't maintain mask use whilst allowing closer to capacity crowds. Outside, not such an issue. 

It seems fairly clear that masks are a culture war issue. I expect examples of people wearing masks in public being abused by knuckle-dragging "freedom-loving patriots".


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## GB72 (Jul 5, 2021)

RichA said:



			Ditching of face masks from 2 weeks today. I don't get it. It costs the country nothing, harms nobody and reduces the volume of infectious airborne particles.
I'm happy for other folks that hospitality venues and all other business will be fully reopening, but why ditch the masks.
As a daily user of busy public transport, I'd be interested to know if it's just me that has concerns.
		
Click to expand...

Not just you, if I was on public transport I would probably still wear a mask and may well do in supermarkets. The issue is, how can you open certain indoor sectors that are not compatible with mask wearing (clubs etc) but enforce mask wearing in others.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 5, 2021)

@Ethan - is there any suggestion that wearing of mask protects the wearer too?


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## fundy (Jul 5, 2021)

Clearly being used to split people down the middle, almost as if their last method of doing so has moved on


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



@Ethan - is there any suggestion that wearing of mask protects the wearer too?
		
Click to expand...

It does to a certain extent, but the greater effect is to protect others.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



*Seems as though it's now financial reasons rather than health reasons* making the decision on reopening everything. Two weeks ago we were told that step 4 would be pushed back. Infections are now far higher than they were but we're getting rid of all restrictions. Surely as a minimum face masks on public transport and enclosed spaces should have been kept. Is this a government buck passing exercise where the public will be blamed for further rises because they didn't follow "guidance" on masks now it's no longer the law?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure how you can make that claim when you look at the latest figures…..





Deaths extremely low




Hospitalisation extremely low

We need to start getting over it, it’s been bad but all the evidence suggests that the worst is behind us and it’s time to start getting back to normal. Seems that a lot of people are reluctant to let it go but it’s time to get back to work.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Not sure how you can make that claim when you look at the latest figures…..

View attachment 37392



Deaths extremely low

View attachment 37390


Hospitalisation extremely low

We need to start getting over it, it’s been bad but all the evidence suggests that the worst is behind us and it’s time to start getting back to normal. Seems that a lot of people are reluctant to let it go but it’s time to get back to work.
		
Click to expand...


Are face masks on public transport or shops stopping people getting back to work? How so? 

Clearly a relaxation of restrictions needs to happen, but these announcements are serving several other agendas too.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It does to a certain extent, but the greater effect is to protect others.
		
Click to expand...

Is there any actual evidence to suggest face coverings (I'll refrain from using the term face mask) provide any meaningful protection at all? 

The amount of waste they are producing is obscene.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It does to a certain extent, but the greater effect is to protect others.
		
Click to expand...

Doesn't the vax drastically reduce the risk of transmission? Why would I then wear a mask to protect others if my immunity already does.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So it’s back to be about your Son and not the bigger picture.

Click to expand...

His is part of those who have been trampled upon and ignored and who deserve consideration - and I mention his sector as it is how I am most significantly affected by the pandemic - which is what thread is all about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			To be fair, his son is the bigger picture now. There are a few industries that have been massively hit throughout this and continue to be hit. Semi relaxation of rules etc is not going to help them. So what do we do now. 64% of the sdult population have had 2 jabs, over 80% had had one jab. That is pretty much as protected as we can be. A time has to come when we have to try and return to some form of normality. and better now in the summer than in the harder conditions of the winter months.

It would be easy for me to profess the benefits of keeping restrictions. I have not lost anything during lockdown, I have worked every day and had a garden to sit in when stuck at home and, to be honest, the thought of normality makes me nervous as hell but I am in a very privileged position and so I have to look at it from the other side. If I had lost everything during lockdown and been struck at home with no money and not a days work in 18 months then suspect my outlook would be very different.

Maybe this is the time to come back out of our shells.
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely got it spot on.👍


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## Fade and Die (Jul 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



*Are face masks on public transport or shops stopping people getting back to work? How so?*

Clearly a relaxation of restrictions needs to happen, but these announcements are serving several other agendas too.
		
Click to expand...

I never said anything about masks, and tbh I think if I had to use public transport I would put one on. My point was that the evidence is there that the time is right to start relaxing restrictions for health reasons rather than financial pressures.


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## chrisd (Jul 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



@Ethan - is there any suggestion that wearing of mask protects the wearer too?
		
Click to expand...

I know this was asked of Ethan, but Whitty said they mainly protect others but do give some protection to the wearer


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Doesn't the vax drastically reduce the risk of transmission? Why would I then wear a mask to protect others if my immunity already does.
		
Click to expand...

Because your immunity only probably does. And unless people wear badges marking their vaccination status, it becomes impossible to maintain a system where some people wear, others don't. There are already too many people with bogus exemptions too.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I never said anything about masks, and tbh I think if I had to use public transport I would put one on. My point was that the evidence is there that the time is right to start relaxing restrictions for health reasons rather than financial pressures.
		
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OK, fair enough. I agree, as I said, that relaxing restrictions carefully is fine. None of us are enjoying the restrictions, but masks ring bells on one side of the culture war, and should not be stopped like they are being stopped.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The reasoning on masks is utterly contradictory. On the one hand, it is to give people "personal freedom", but Whitty and Vallance just confirmed that the main purpose is to protect others. Therefore, Johnson is saying that people should have the personal freedom to choose whether to protect others or not? That is insane, and there is ample evidence that many people don't give a toss about anybody else. Precisely the same logic could extend to drink-driving and speed limits. Put up "advisory" signs and let the good sense of others determine how much they drink before driving home, and at what speed.

There is no reason that indoor venues couldn't maintain mask use whilst allowing closer to capacity crowds. Outside, not such an issue.

It seems fairly clear that masks are a culture war issue. I expect examples of people wearing masks in public being abused by knuckle-dragging "freedom-loving patriots".
		
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What I was asking for was to allow venues to open but either rules require masks to be worn or give venues the right to require masks to be worn.  Not sure no masks is that great an idea...Whitty and @Ethan sets out why.


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## chrisd (Jul 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			His is part of those who have been trampled upon and ignored and who deserve consideration - and I mention his sector as it is how I am most significantly affected by the pandemic - which is what thread is all about.
		
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The thread is all about how YOU are affected  by the pandemic - is it just me me me ?


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I know this was asked of Ethan, but Whitty said they mainly protect others but do give some protection to the wearer
		
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@AmandaJR  this seemed to support the early in pandemic thoughts 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57636360.amp


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

chrisd said:



			The thread is all about how YOU are affected  by the pandemic - is it just me me me ?
		
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Look...I am affected by the coronavirus by how it impacts me directly and also how I am affected by the impact it has had on those closest to me and the knock-on affect of those on me.  For a while there was also the impact on me and my Mrs by how the pandemic was impacting on my MiL and BiL, but with the vaccinations that knock-on on us from them is much less, though still exists.

fFrom what I gather the relaxations planned for the 19th are great news for my son and therefore for me also, though I think the ‘no need for masks’ is a relaxation too far - and I fail to understand the reasoNing for that relaxation - it could easily have been kept though in some of the populace it might not have been popular.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			To be fair, his son is the bigger picture now. There are a few industries that have been massively hit throughout this and continue to be hit. Semi relaxation of rules etc is not going to help them. So what do we do now. 64% of the sdult population have had 2 jabs, over 80% had had one jab. That is pretty much as protected as we can be. A time has to come when we have to try and return to some form of normality. and better now in the summer than in the harder conditions of the winter months.

It would be easy for me to profess the benefits of keeping restrictions. I have not lost anything during lockdown, I have worked every day and had a garden to sit in when stuck at home and, to be honest, the thought of normality makes me nervous as hell but I am in a very privileged position and so I have to look at it from the other side. If I had lost everything during lockdown and been struck at home with no money and not a days work in 18 months then suspect my outlook would be very different.

*Maybe this is the time to come back out of our shells.*

Click to expand...

And maybe for some this have changed for ever; certainly the foreseeable future.  One of my wife's old school friends and her family visited at the weekend.  The daughter, who is 25 and is not over anxious but tends towards the cautious, says she can never envisage visiting a nightclub again.  That may change in years to come, but at the moment you can open what you like, she won't be there.  How many others are thinking that way?  Despite being double jabbed, Mrs BiM and I have no desire to fly at the moment, as much as we both need the break.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Seems as though it's now financial reasons rather than health reasons making the decision on reopening everything. Two weeks ago we were told that step 4 would be pushed back. Infections are now far higher than they were but we're getting rid of all restrictions. Surely as a minimum face masks on public transport and enclosed spaces should have been kept. Is this a government buck passing exercise where the public will be blamed for further rises because they didn't follow "guidance" on masks now it's no longer the law?
		
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Having listened to Prof Whitty at the briefing, when he outlined when he would wear a mask, ( agree with him), I cannot see why there is a vital difference between "guidance" and "the law".
Just how much difference did it being against the law make to the wearing of a mask? Are you now going to stop wearing a mask because it is not now against the law?  Or will you wear one when it helps the situation?
How many people were done for breaking this law?
How many only wore one because the law was there? And would have chosen not to wear one but for the law, notwithstanding the need for protection where they were?
I would have liked to see more highlighting of the circumstances when masks were needed, and why ( and when not). They only protect from airborne droplets - and they only travel limited distance. If you are not within that distance of anyone, then no need. But if you are , then (please) wear one.

They do not protect against aerosol transmission, which I suggest, is a main transmission route when indoors and confined spaces..
Suppose you have, say, six to ten people all round a table in a pub.
Masks would save droplet transmission amongst them, .That would occur whilst eating goes on, because eating is not done in silence in pubs!
And already masks aren't worn whilst eating/drinking.
And masks wouldn't stop aerosol transmission amongst them ,  or anyone else at other tables ( without extraordinary ventilation)

Now, nightclubs- masks stop droplets but not aerosol. Masks worn in nightclubs is clearly not going to happen, even though droplets will be flying around.
Theatres ,the same?
Clearly the Government ( and Silh😀) want the entertainment industry, and others, to start up again.  I think  compulsory masks would be incompatible with that.

So, with all that, are masks as vital as some are saying?

Nevertheless,let's hope the public will voluntarily wear them as circumstances demand.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 5, 2021)

As far as I'm concerned there's no change regarding mask wearing and I'll continue to find them in every pocket alongside a dog poo bag!


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## chrisd (Jul 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look...I am affected by the coronavirus by how it impacts me directly and also how I am affected by the impact it has had on those closest to me and the knock-on affect of those on me.  For a while there was also the impact on me and my Mrs by how the pandemic was impacting on my MiL and BiL, but with the vaccinations that knock-on on us from them is much less, though still exists.
		
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Yep, I work in the hospitality industry and understand exactly how it has affected that industry and individuals


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## Kellfire (Jul 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			As far as I'm concerned there's no change regarding mask wearing and I'll continue to find them in every pocket alongside a dog poo bag!
		
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Just don’t mix those up if you reuse your face masks.


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## Imurg (Jul 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			As far as I'm concerned there's no change regarding mask wearing and I'll continue to find them in every pocket alongside a dog poo bag!
		
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Don't mix them up


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			To be fair, his son is the bigger picture now. There are a few industries that have been massively hit throughout this and continue to be hit. Semi relaxation of rules etc is not going to help them. So what do we do now. 64% of the sdult population have had 2 jabs, over 80% had had one jab. That is pretty much as protected as we can be. A time has to come when we have to try and return to some form of normality. and better now in the summer than in the harder conditions of the winter months.

It would be easy for me to profess the benefits of keeping restrictions. I have not lost anything during lockdown, I have worked every day and had a garden to sit in when stuck at home and, to be honest, the thought of normality makes me nervous as hell but I am in a very privileged position and so I have to look at it from the other side. If I had lost everything during lockdown and been struck at home with no money and not a days work in 18 months then suspect my outlook would be very different.

Maybe this is the time to come back out of our shells.
		
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His son and other Industries have been the bigger picture for a long time now, what I’m asking him is, if the situation is worse than last when the so called “Freedom Day” was delayed, how can it now be ok to simply state “Open everything” surely we should still be following the science?


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## GB72 (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			His son and other Industries have been the bigger picture for a long time now, what I’m asking him is, if the situation is worse than last when the so called “Freedom Day” was delayed, how can it now be ok to simply state “Open everything” surely we should still be following the science?
		
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Another month of vaccines with everyone 18 and above able to be jabbed


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 5, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Another month of vaccines with everyone 18 and above able to be jabbed
		
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Infection rates now back at Feb levels, if that is not a concern, somebody please step up and announce it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			As far as I'm concerned there's no change regarding mask wearing and I'll continue to find them in every pocket alongside a dog poo bag!
		
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Just be careful which one you put on your face.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Not sure how you can make that claim when you look at the latest figures…..

View attachment 37392



Deaths extremely low

View attachment 37390


Hospitalisation extremely low

We need to start getting over it, it’s been bad but all the evidence suggests that the worst is behind us and it’s time to start getting back to normal. Seems that a lot of people are reluctant to let it go but it’s time to get back to work.
		
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Because on 14th June when they made the decision to delay reopening on 21st June there were 7606 positive test results. By 21st June that was up to 10467. Yesterday (4th July) there were 23818 and they have decided to drop all restrictions. The figures show that cases are doubling roughly every 9 days so by 19th July cases are likely to be over 50000. If we then remove all restrictions the cases will double more quickly than every 9 days. By the end of July we could easily be over 100k cases per day and still rising. 

Yes it's time to ease restrictions but simple things like masks on public transport and in enclosed spaces don't stop people getting back to work. In fact by removing the requirement to wear masks on public transport you could very well be stopping vulnerable people from going back to work if they have to use public transport and don't feel safe doing so. You only have to look at the number of 🔔🔚s that refused to wear masks when they were compulsory to realise that making them advisory isn't going to work.

Would you rather be going into September and the start of Autumn with 150-200k cases, or more, per day or would you rather go into Autumn with far fewer cases per day because the mask rules have not been relaxed? The greater number of cases there are in the population the higher the risk of a mutation that rapidly makes things go downhill.

The only difference between 14th June, when the delay to restrictions was announced, and today, when all restrictions are going to be lifted, is the number of people vaccinated. Double jabbed total on 14th June was 30.2 million. Double jabbed total yesterday was 33.7 million. Is that really a big enough difference to justify binning off all the rules? 

Seems that the mantra of "data not dates" has been conveniently forgotten and it's now all about the dates.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 5, 2021)

I'll be honest, I'll continue to wear a mask but if I get to the door and can't find one I won't go back for it now ..


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## AmandaJR (Jul 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'll be honest, I'll continue to wear a mask but if I get to the door and can't find one I won't go back for it now ..
		
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That's where I'm at too.


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			His son and other Industries have been the bigger picture for a long time now, what I’m asking him is, if the situation is worse than last when the so called “Freedom Day” was delayed, how can it now be ok to simply state “Open everything” surely we should still be following the science?
		
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Maybe by the whatever date everything opens up a critical mass will have been vaccinated. Maybe there are less people being hospitalised with it now. Or maybe the critical factor in the equation is the economy.

Disappointed with the hairy fairy guidance on mask wearing. Too many will just ignore guidance.


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'll be honest, I'll continue to wear a mask but if I get to the door and can't find one I won't go back for it now ..
		
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Mandatory in Spain to carry one. There are places where they’re not needed but if you’re outside your front door you could be asked to show it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			That's where I'm at too.
		
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You will go back for your poo bag though.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 5, 2021)

I think it’s sensible to wear masks in crowded places.
But lots will avoid those places anyway.
Will be interesting to see what big supermarkets and large venues will have as a policy.
My guess no restrictions as they open up .


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



*Maybe by the whatever date everything opens up a critical mass will have been vaccinated.* Maybe there are less people being hospitalised with it now. Or maybe the critical factor in the equation is the economy.

Disappointed with the hairy fairy guidance on mask wearing. Too many will just ignore guidance.
		
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From memory we need to get to 70% fully vaccinated (double jabbed) to achieve herd immunity and for the virus to struggle to spread. As of yesterday 33.7 million were double jabbed which is roughly 50% of the population. To hit that target we need to vaccinate approx 20% of the population in the next two weeks. Between 14th June and yesterday 3.5 million people got their second jab. We've got absolutely no chance of reaching 70% by 19th July. We'd need to give another 13 million 2nd jabs between now and then to hit that target, and even if we do that won't be enough as full protection doesn't happen until 2 to 3 weeks after the second jab.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Because on 14th June when they made the decision to delay reopening on 21st June there were 7606 positive test results. By 21st June that was up to 10467. Yesterday (4th July) there were 23818 and they have decided to drop all restrictions. The figures show that cases are doubling roughly every 9 days so by 19th July cases are likely to be over 50000. If we then remove all restrictions the cases will double more quickly than every 9 days. By the end of July we could easily be over 100k cases per day and still rising.

Yes it's time to ease restrictions but simple things like masks on public transport and in enclosed spaces don't stop people getting back to work. In fact by removing the requirement to wear masks on public transport you could very well be stopping vulnerable people from going back to work if they have to use public transport and don't feel safe doing so. You only have to look at the number of 🔔🔚s that refused to wear masks when they were compulsory to realise that making them advisory isn't going to work.

Would you rather be going into September and the start of Autumn with 150-200k cases, or more, per day or would you rather go into Autumn with far fewer cases per day because the mask rules have not been relaxed? The greater number of cases there are in the population the higher the risk of a mutation that rapidly makes things go downhill.

The only difference between 14th June, when the delay to restrictions was announced, and today, when all restrictions are going to be lifted, is the number of people vaccinated. Double jabbed total on 14th June was 30.2 million. Double jabbed total yesterday was 33.7 million. Is that really a big enough difference to justify binning off all the rules?

Seems that the mantra of "data not dates" has been conveniently forgotten and it's now all about the dates.
		
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But those numbers are meaningless, they are only that high because of the amount of testing going on, the only figures that are relevant are the hospital beds being taken up by Covid and the deaths. That was the reason for the Lockdown. “Protect the NHS”  I think it’s a case of Job Done.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			But those numbers are meaningless, they are only that high because of the amount of testing going on, the only figures that are relevant are the hospital beds being taken up by Covid and the deaths. That was the reason for the Lockdown. “Protect the NHS”  I think it’s a case of Job Done.
		
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You're sounding like Donald Trump - The best way to reduce the number of cases is to reduce the number of tests being carried out. 

We're not in anything that is even close to lockdown at the minute. Pretty much all of normal life is going on again with the exception of a few small sectors of the economy, such as nightclubs, gigs etc. We aren't in lockdown and to suggest we are is complete nonsense. 

Are those numbers "meaningless" to all those that will suffer the effects of long Covid? 

Are they "meaningless" to all those that will go on to develop organ damage/failure due to Covid? 

Will they be "meaningless" if they cause a mutation that is more harmful and doesn't respond as well to the vaccine?

All those that have been screaming for restrictions to be lifted will be the same ones blaming the government if we end up back in lockdown due to either a variant/mutation or due to rising hospitalisations and deaths later in the year. I predict late October or early November for lockdown 4.0, and all due to a weak government trying to be popular and passing the buck rather than doing what is needed to protect the long term health of the nation. It's face coverings on public transport and enclosed spaces that are being suggested, it's hardly a massive sacrifice to try to protect other people.


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			From memory we need to get to 70% fully vaccinated (double jabbed) to achieve herd immunity and for the virus to struggle to spread. As of yesterday 33.7 million were double jabbed which is roughly 50% of the population. To hit that target we need to vaccinate approx 20% of the population in the next two weeks. Between 14th June and yesterday 3.5 million people got their second jab. We've got absolutely no chance of reaching 70% by 19th July. We'd need to give another 13 million 2nd jabs between now and then to hit that target, and even if we do that won't be enough as full protection doesn't happen until 2 to 3 weeks after the second jab.
		
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The majority of the vulnerable have long since had their second jab.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			You're sounding like Donald Trump - The best way to reduce the number of cases is to reduce the number of tests being carried out.

We're not in anything that is even close to lockdown at the minute. Pretty much all of normal life is going on again with the exception of a few small sectors of the economy, such as nightclubs, gigs etc. We aren't in lockdown and to suggest we are is complete nonsense.

Are those numbers "meaningless" to all those that will suffer the effects of long Covid?

Are they "meaningless" to all those that will go on to develop organ damage/failure due to Covid?

Will they be "meaningless" if they cause a mutation that is more harmful and doesn't respond as well to the vaccine?

All those that have been screaming for restrictions to be lifted will be the same ones blaming the government if we end up back in lockdown due to either a variant/mutation or due to rising hospitalisations and deaths later in the year. I predict late October or early November for lockdown 4.0, and all due to a weak government trying to be popular and passing the buck rather than doing what is needed to protect the long term health of the nation. It's face coverings on public transport and enclosed spaces that are being suggested, it's hardly a massive sacrifice to try to protect other people.
		
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Everything you have posted is spot on 

I can’t understand the rush to remove all the restrictions whilst the virus is clearly still having an effect


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The majority of the vulnerable have long since had their second jab.
		
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It isn't just about the vulnerable. It's about those that will suffer from long Covid and future unknown side effects of the virus such as organ damage, as well as the virus being present in large enough numbers for it to spread and potentially mutate. The second part of that becomes a lot less likely with 70%+ of the population fully protected.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			You're sounding like Donald Trump - The best way to reduce the number of cases is to reduce the number of tests being carried out.

We're not in anything that is even close to lockdown at the minute. Pretty much all of normal life is going on again with the exception of a few small sectors of the economy, such as nightclubs, gigs etc. We aren't in lockdown and to suggest we are is complete nonsense.

Are those numbers "meaningless" to all those that will suffer the effects of long Covid?

Are they "meaningless" to all those that will go on to develop organ damage/failure due to Covid?

Will they be "meaningless" if they cause a mutation that is more harmful and doesn't respond as well to the vaccine?

All those that have been screaming for restrictions to be lifted will be the same ones blaming the government if we end up back in lockdown due to either a variant/mutation or due to rising hospitalisations and deaths later in the year. I predict late October or early November for lockdown 4.0, and all due to a weak government trying to be popular and passing the buck rather than doing what is needed to protect the long term health of the nation. It's face coverings on public transport and enclosed spaces that are being suggested, it's hardly a massive sacrifice to try to protect other people.
		
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I know you are frightened mate lashing out with the insults and doomsday prophecies but once you get your confidence back you will be ok.👍 (remember just baby steps at first)


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## SaintHacker (Jul 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe by the whatever date everything opens up a critical mass will have been vaccinated. Maybe there are less people being hospitalised with it now. Or maybe the critical factor in the equation is the economy.

Disappointed with the hairy fairy guidance on mask wearing. Too many will just ignore guidance.
		
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Too many have ignored it all along. I'd love to know how many people were actually prosecuted/fined for not wearing one despite it being law. Tbe company I worked for at the time (thankfully not anymore) actually disciplined and even sacked some drivers for refusing customers who wouldn't wear them.


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## Imurg (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			From memory we need to get to 70% fully vaccinated (double jabbed) to achieve herd immunity and for the virus to struggle to spread. As of yesterday 33.7 million were double jabbed which is roughly 50% of the population. To hit that target we need to vaccinate approx 20% of the population in the next two weeks. Between 14th June and yesterday 3.5 million people got their second jab. We've got absolutely no chance of reaching 70% by 19th July. We'd need to give another 13 million 2nd jabs between now and then to hit that target, and even if we do that won't be enough as full protection doesn't happen until 2 to 3 weeks after the second jab.
		
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Good point but don't forget that a single jab still gives decent protection....


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I know you are frightened mate lashing out with the insults and doomsday prophecies but once you get your confidence back you will be ok.👍 (remember just baby steps at first)
		
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You may choose to take it as an insult that I said you sounded like Donald Trump but how is what you said different to what he said?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-he-ordered-coronavirus-testing-to-slow-down

And it's not about me. I've been working throughout all of the lockdowns as I got classed a a key worker. I'm double jabbed and not considered as vulnerable. It's about having empathy for those that are less fortunate and doing what we can to protect them. 

I actually think that removing the requirement to wear a mask by law and making it a personal choice will save me a lot of time. I'll now just be able to look at someone to see if they're a selfish 🔔🔚 rather than having to talk to them to find out.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 5, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			You may choose to take it as an insult that I said you sounded like Donald Trump but how is what you said different to what he said?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-he-ordered-coronavirus-testing-to-slow-down

And it's not about me. I've been working throughout all of the lockdowns as I got classed a a key worker. I'm double jabbed and not considered as vulnerable. It's about having empathy for those that are less fortunate and doing what we can to protect them.

I actually think that removing the requirement to wear a mask by law and making it a personal choice will save me a lot of time. I'll now just be able to look at someone to see if they're a selfish 🔔🔚 rather than having to talk to them to find out. 

Click to expand...

Devils advocate

But with the law removed won't that mean those who wear the lanyards to say their exempt from a mask to save being looked down at will now be looked down at as they won't need to wear that anymore?


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			But those numbers are meaningless, they are only that high because of the amount of testing going on, the only figures that are relevant are the hospital beds being taken up by Covid and the deaths. That was the reason for the Lockdown. “Protect the NHS”  I think it’s a case of Job Done.
		
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So as long as the pile of bodies is not so high they can't all be buried or burned, we're cool?

The high testing rate only partly explains high case numbers. Most of those tests are in people who are very unlikely to be infected, school and college LFTs, for example. The Govt should publish the number of tests performed for cause, symptoms or close contacts. That is a more meaningful denominator. Real cases are clearly going up, though.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Devils advocate

But with the law removed won't that mean those who wear the lanyards to say their exempt from a mask to save being looked down at will now be looked down at as they won't need to wear that anymore?
		
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There are few genuine reasons for being exempt, and many of those who wear them are simply mask-objectors or just bloody minded.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are few genuine reasons for being exempt, and many of those who wear them are simply mask-objectors or just bloody minded.
		
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Didn't help that they were on sale in morrisons for a couple of quid🙄


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## pauljames87 (Jul 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are few genuine reasons for being exempt, and many of those who wear them are simply mask-objectors or just bloody minded.
		
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I saw a lot of mums with young kids with them, dunno why

One I saw I thought must not be a nutter tho as she had her lanyard but her husband had a mask on so was like fair enough seems genuine


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			His son and other Industries have been the bigger picture for a long time now, what I’m asking him is, if the situation is worse than last when the so called “Freedom Day” was delayed, how can it now be ok to simply state “Open everything” surely we should still be following the science?
		
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Wimbledon Court 1 with roof shut this evening becomes indoor venue with 15,000 mostly unmasked spectators sitting cheek by jowl, shouting their heads off and cheering.   Just like any gig in most venues.  Should they have donned masks when the roof was shut?  Yes it may be well ventilated but so are many venues. And I might suggest that the average age of Wimbledon spectator is a *lot* higher (50+?) than that for most gigs and, as I understand it, the former remain more at risk from illness despite their being mostly double vaccinated.


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I saw a lot of mums with young kids with them, dunno why

One I saw I thought must not be a nutter tho as she had her lanyard but her husband had a mask on so was like fair enough seems genuine
		
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I know some nutter married (or the equivalent thereof) to not nutter couples. 

When this madness started, a long list of conditions which could be eligible for exempt status was published by Govt. Some people wrongly (perhaps delivberately so) interpreted that as meaning that all asthmatics or ADHDs must be exempt. 

In my view, it should be restricted to people with painful facial conditions such as trigemincal neuralgia, people with proper phobic conditions (not just "I get anxious wearing one") and some conditions such as asthma need to wear them more than the average person, not less. They help keep allergens out. The full face welders masks are utterly useless and just make you look like a prat.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			But those numbers are meaningless, they are only that high because of the amount of testing going on, the only figures that are relevant are the hospital beds being taken up by Covid and the deaths. That was the reason for the Lockdown. “Protect the NHS”  I think it’s a case of Job Done.
		
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We've been fed the story since the pandemic began that countries like Germany had such low infection rates because they had much better testing facilities than we did so could keep the virus under control.  Now we're being told the reason our infection rates are through the roof is due to our testing being better than other countries 🤔.   Scotland now has the highest rate in Europe and the UK has more infections than the EU.  I suspect we are doing something very wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2021)

An interesting view on Covid and mental health.
https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...tal-health-pandemic?__twitter_impression=true


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## Ethan (Jul 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We've been fed the story since the pandemic began that countries like Germany had such low infection rates because they had much better testing facilities than we did so could keep the virus under control.  Now we're being told the reason our infection rates are through the roof is due to our testing being better than other countries 🤔.   Scotland now has the highest rate in Europe and the UK has more infections than the EU.  I suspect we are doing something very wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I think we were told that Germany did better because they more effectively controlled entry of virus into the country, had better infrastructure and preparedness and acted quickly rather than prevaricated. Lots of testing is not of itself a good thing if it is misdirected. The UK never tested close contacts of known cases, which I have complained about here and elsewhere as a huge mistake. The UK was obsessed with big numbers, but provided scant detail on what those numbers actually meant. We still don't know how many people were ever tested because of actual symptoms as opposed to other reasons. You can't make any sense of the numbers if you don't know the categories.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 5, 2021)

For all the talk of opening up, it looks like it could be a very stilted affair; having shouted from the rooftops that West End theatre is open, performances of Hairspray have been cancelled for 10 days because of a positive Covid test in the production team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57725704

Apart from the knock on economic effects, it won't be good for the mental health got those who have booked themselves a pack-me-up to have it cancelled.  I wonder how often this will happen & how long it will go on for?


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2021)

I've been mulling over and a bit torn really. I'm aware & follow all the numbers. When things were going so well earlier in spring I was surprised the cases didn't drop below 2.5K really, guess it pointed to an amount still going around. The other numbers haven't climbed in pace with the cases, but they have gone up. I suspect to actually turn the numbers around we actually need a proper lockdown and there's little stomach for that. All through the challenges we had the "but can do this but can't do that" arguments, and with the big sporting events etc. this is increasing (only need to go up a few posts). So I can see the "gamble" in let's just crack on, let people make their own decisions and ride it out.
I'll be in the remaing cautious category, and am aware some just won't have that choice. Fingers & toes crossed.


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2021)

IainP said:



			I've been mulling over and a bit torn really. I'm aware & follow all the numbers. When things were going so well earlier in spring I was surprised the cases didn't drop below 2.5K really, guess it pointed to an amount still going around. The other numbers haven't climbed in pace with the cases, but they have gone up. I suspect to actually turn the numbers around we actually need a proper lockdown and there's little stomach for that. All through the challenges we had the "but can do this but can't do that" arguments, and with the big sporting events etc. this is increasing (only need to go up a few posts). So I can see the "gamble" in let's just crack on, let people make their own decisions and ride it out.
I'll be in the remaing cautious category, and am aware some just won't have that choice. Fingers & toes crossed.
		
Click to expand...

I’m definitely in the remaining cautious category. Spain and bloody paperwork. Both in our 60’s, still no sign of being jabbed. Very uncomfortable with the relaxation…


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## IainP (Jul 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m definitely in the remaining cautious category. Spain and bloody paperwork. Both in our 60’s, still no sign of being jabbed. Very uncomfortable with the relaxation…
		
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Yeah, that's not good at all and does add perspective. Are the locals having the same experience?
We're a big family and as of today everyone has had at least one vaccination (youngest is 21), so that gives a degree of comfort.
At least you have the weather! (rain currently bouncing off the windows here)


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 5, 2021)

I think we've all been gifted a get out of jail free card when it comes to getting stopped for speeding. We can just use Boris's words to justify the fact we were over the limit.....

"Boris Johnson - asked whether he will wear a mask himself - says "it depends on the circumstances". He draws comparison between busy rush-hour Tube and empty late-night rail carriage.  PM says it's all about "personal responsibility". 

So if I get stopped for doing 120mph on the M11 at 2am I can just say "It depends on the circumstances, it wasn't a busy rush hour motorway, it was an empty late night motorway. It's all about personal responsibility". 

NB. the above is not actual legal advice and might not get you out of a fine or ban.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wimbledon Court 1 with roof shut this evening becomes indoor venue with 15,000 mostly unmasked spectators sitting cheek by jowl, shouting their heads off and cheering.   Just like any gig in most venues.  Should they have donned masks when the roof was shut?  Yes it may be well ventilated but so are many venues. And I might suggest that the average age of Wimbledon spectator is a *lot* higher (50+?) than that for most gigs and, as I understand it, the former remain more at risk from illness despite their being mostly double vaccinated.
		
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 Your question implies you still don't understand that masks do not prevent aerosol transmission,,!   The virus is in  in breath  whichobviously goes through masks, otherwise you would asphyxiate !The virus is so small that the mask does not filter it. Because you breath others breath in enclosed spaces quite readily, but hardly ever in the open air and a lot less in well ventilated indoor settings, indoor settings are where aerosol transmission easily happens.
Masks only stop droplets (in breath) and you only get those from someone close to you- sneezing, or shouting , talking loudly, laughing etc.
So, they would help in nightclubs , but there would still be the aerosol transmission in nightclubs-  not the most ventilated of places!
If gigs, nightclubs, theatres, cinemas are to re open, then mask wearing in those places becomes somewhat irrelevant, and if it were, I opine it would be an unenforceable law.
Notwithstanding this, the  briefing did still recommend the use of masks in relevant places, and even to do so if it instllled confidence around you doing so.


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## Kellfire (Jul 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Your question implies you still don't understand that masks do not prevent aerosol transmission,,!   The virus is in  in breath  whichobviously goes through masks, otherwise you would asphyxiate !The virus is so small that the mask does not filter it. Because you breath others breath in enclosed spaces quite readily, but hardly ever in the open air and a lot less in well ventilated indoor settings, indoor settings are where aerosol transmission easily happens.
Masks only stop droplets (in breath) and you only get those from someone close to you- sneezing, or shouting , talking loudly, laughing etc.
So, they would help in nightclubs , but there would still be the aerosol transmission in nightclubs-  not the most ventilated of places!
If gigs, nightclubs, theatres, cinemas are to re open, then mask wearing in those places becomes somewhat irrelevant, and if it were, I opine it would be an unenforceable law.
Notwithstanding this, the  briefing did still recommend the use of masks in relevant places, and even to do so if it instllled confidence around you doing so.
		
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You sound like someone who gets their information from Twitter and YouTube videos. Proper surgical masks help reduce aerosol transmission and there are studies to show this.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2021)

Since I've been at work we have had 3 trains delayed due to customers kicking off with each other over not wearing a mask 

Now we have one stabbed for it

Roll on the 19th ..


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## ExRabbit (Jul 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We've been fed the story since the pandemic began that countries like Germany had such low infection rates because they had much better testing facilities than we did so could keep the virus under control.  Now we're being told the reason our infection rates are through the roof is due to our testing being better than other countries 🤔.   Scotland now has the highest rate in Europe and the UK has more infections than the EU.  *I suspect we are doing something very wrong.*

Click to expand...

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...dness-manchester-city-centre-england-20965415


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## ExRabbit (Jul 6, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			One of the 20 somethings in the office decided to go to the pub to watch the England vs Germany game, a ticketed event with tables of 6 and a band on after the game. All within the guidelines, but perhaps not a sensible/responsible choice. Surprise, surprise the social distancing went out the window as the alcohol was consumed and the goals went in. By Friday he is coughing and spluttering in the office, goes for a test, positive result on Saturday.

So now I am self isolating and working from home until close of play next Monday. I have a project starting today, another starting next Monday, site visits booked later this week in Kent and Wales, the Mrs works in the NHS and has a unique role that will not easily be able to cover should she have to self isolate, the lad is supposed to be doing his DofE expedition next weekend, so if I test positive he will have to self isolate and miss that, semi-final of the club foursomes was booked for Thursday and closing date for the round is Sunday, suffice to say I am not a happy bunny this morning!

*ah well! as long as they had a great night at the footie hey!*

Click to expand...

See above.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You sound like someone who gets their information from Twitter and YouTube videos. Proper surgical masks help reduce aerosol transmission and there are studies to show this.
		
Click to expand...

That might well be true but how many of us are wearing proper surgical masks? Most of us wear a selection of cloth masks which have spent the last 18 months in various coat and trouser pockets. I would guess that these masks and little to no effect on stopping the spread of the virus.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 6, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...dness-manchester-city-centre-england-20965415

Click to expand...

But we know people can be idiots, the surge in cases in Glasgow was blamed on the Scotland Fans returning from Wembley, and that begged the question why so many without tickets were allowed to travel the length of the Country.

All sporting events run this risk and expecting fans not to celebrate if their team is deemed to of been succesful is daft.

The only way to avoided this will of been to cancel the Euros.


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## RichA (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			That might well be true but how many of us are wearing proper surgical masks? Most of us wear a selection of cloth masks which have spent the last 18 months in various coat and trouser pockets. I would guess that these masks and little to no effect on stopping the spread of the virus.
		
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We've been doing this for 18 months. I can't grasp why anyone didn't just buy a dozen decent quality multi-layer cloth masks and wash them as often as you'd wash your underwear.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 6, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You sound like someone who gets their information from Twitter and YouTube videos. Proper surgical masks help reduce aerosol transmission and there are studies to show this.
		
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I did ask Ethan earlier if there was any evidence for how effective face coverings are. 

Surgical masks may stop aerosol transmission. But for how long? And how many people wear surgical masks, and know how to use them?


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## bobmac (Jul 6, 2021)

I think after living with Covid for over 15 months, most people will have heard the advice, wear a mask around other people and try and keep 2 metres away if you can.
In my opinion, that's still good advice.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			For all the talk of opening up, it looks like it could be a very stilted affair; having shouted from the rooftops that West End theatre is open, performances of Hairspray have been cancelled for 10 days because of a positive Covid test in the production team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57725704

Apart from the knock on economic effects, it won't be good for the mental health got those who have booked themselves a pack-me-up to have it cancelled.  I wonder how often this will happen & how long it will go on for?
		
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After the 19th the rest of the cast will no longer have to isolate. They will have to take daily tests but otherwise they will carry on. Bring the sub off the bench, away you go.

The above is going to be clarified I believe, I'm not sure if the non isolators need to have been double jabbed or not. In effect though, the bubble system and widespread isolation will be binned off.


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## IainP (Jul 6, 2021)

Interesting closing lines here:
"We are, perhaps, the first country to find ourselves in this situation, where we are attempting to return to normal in the face of a rapidly rising rate of infection and a more infectious variant, Delta.
Others will soon face similar dilemmas. It's why the world will be watching what happens on these shores."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57678942


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2021)

IainP said:



			Interesting closing lines here:
"We are, perhaps, the first country to find ourselves in this situation, where we are attempting to return to normal in the face of a rapidly rising rate of infection and a more infectious variant, Delta.
Others will soon face similar dilemmas. It's why the world will be watching what happens on these shores."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57678942

Click to expand...

Another way of being "world beating" lol typical


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Since I've been at work we have had 3 trains delayed due to customers kicking off with each other over not wearing a mask

Now we have one stabbed for it

Roll on the 19th ..
		
Click to expand...

There have been plenty of examples from the states of mask non-wearers ‘accosting’ wearers and demanding, sometimes physically, that the wearer remove their mask as it is making the non-wearer feel uncomfortable.  This is the opposite of the sort of reasonable practice we are being encouraged to adopt...I.e. put a mask on if someone close to you feels uncomfortable by you not wearing one.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			There have been plenty of examples from the states of mask non-wearers ‘accosting’ wearers and demanding, sometimes physically, that the wearer remove their mask as it is making the non-wearer feel uncomfortable.  This is the opposite of the sort of reasonable practice we are being encouraged to adopt...I.e. put a mask on if someone close to you feels uncomfortable by you not wearing one.
		
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This is going to kick off big time. When an idiot [person in a certain role which cannot be discussed here] declares bluntly without any qualification that he will stop wearing masks on July 19th, we can expect many other idiots to follow suit and see it as a badge of their very identity and a measure of their [redacted] size.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is going to kick off big time. When an idiot [person in a certain role which cannot be discussed here] declares bluntly without any qualification that he will stop wearing masks on July 19th, _*we can expect many other idiots to follow suit*_ and see it as a badge of their very identity and a measure of their [redacted] size.
		
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Surely this sort of language is just going to make things worse? Why are people automatically branded 'idiots' for not wearing a mask? If the legal requirement has changed you would assume there has been some scientific input into it even if there are numbers that don't agree so then it becomes personal choice. If you go around calling all non-wearers of masks idiots it will just encourage the other side to come back with the whole 'bed wetters' comment and it gets messy. It comes down to personal choice after that and I don't think anyone should be judged on it.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think after living with Covid for over 15 months, most people will have heard the advice, wear a mask around other people and try and *keep 2 metres away* if you can.
In my opinion, that's still good advice.
		
Click to expand...

And not just for Covid...


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 6, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You sound like someone who gets their information from Twitter and YouTube videos. Proper surgical masks help reduce aerosol transmission and there are studies to show this.
		
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And there you go again, insulting people at the drop of a hat. How dare you assume that I was talking about proper surgical masks.
It's bloody obvious that we are here ( and the PM , and the press) talking about the everyday masks worn by ordinary people- those blue things etc🙄

Twitter I do not use or look at . 
So, What brand of obnoxious pills do you take in the morning!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Surely this sort of language is just going to make things worse? Why are people automatically branded 'idiots' for not wearing a mask? If the legal requirement has changed you would assume there has been some scientific input into it even if there are numbers that don't agree so then it becomes personal choice. If you go around calling all non-wearers of masks idiots it will just encourage the other side to come back with the whole 'bed wetters' comment and it gets messy. It comes down to personal choice after that and I don't think anyone should be judged on it.
		
Click to expand...

So you, through exercising your personal choice, are wearing a mask and someone comes up to you demanding that you remove it as you are making him feel uncomfortable - you refuse his demands and he berates and insults you and might then proceed to rip it off your face.  That’s OK then and not idiotic (at best) behaviour.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you, through exercising your personal choice, are wearing a mask and someone comes up to you demanding that you remove it as you are making him feel uncomfortable - you refuse his demands and he then proceeds to rip it off your face.  That’s OK then and not idiotic (at best) behaviour.
		
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Sorry, you've lost me? My comment was that it's going to come down to personal choice and there shouldn't be this sort of language on either side, either choose to wear a mask or don't but neither side should be intentionally making anyone feel uncomfortable with their choice.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So you, through exercising your personal choice, are wearing a mask and someone comes up to you demanding that you remove it as you are making him feel uncomfortable - you refuse his demands and he berates and insults you and might then proceed to rip it off your face.  That’s OK then and not idiotic (at best) behaviour.
		
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Doesn't the same apply the other way round too? 

Which is far more likely in the UK than someone trying to rip a mask off your face.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sorry, you've lost me? My comment was that it's going to come down to personal choice and there shouldn't be this sort of language on either side, either choose to wear a mask or don't but neither side should be intentionally making anyone feel uncomfortable with their choice.
		
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Correct. But that is not what has happened in the US where there was no federal requirement for mask wearing - it was down to individuals and individual states.  And in the lack of a firm hand on the tiller of mask wearing, conflict was and is commonplace, with wearers and non-wearers alike being accosted, abused and insulted.


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## chrisd (Jul 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is going to kick off big time. When an idiot [person in a certain role which cannot be discussed here] declares bluntly without any qualification that he will stop wearing masks on July 19th, we can expect many other idiots to follow suit and see it as a badge of their very identity and a measure of their [redacted] size.
		
Click to expand...

I seem to recall a "person in a certain role" say that he might not wear a mask in a train carriage that was empty late at night but would in the rush hour when it was busy.  All 3 people on the podium In a press conference yesterday said they would wear face masks indoors in a busy environment,  otherwise if they thought other people would be concerned uf they didnt wear one,or, if they were asked to do so.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I seem to recall a "person in a certain role" say that he might not wear a mask in a train carriage that was empty late at night but would in the rush hour when it was busy.  All 3 people on the podium In a press conference yesterday said they would wear face masks indoors in a busy environment,  otherwise if they thought other people would be concerned uf they didnt wear one,or, if they were asked to do so.
		
Click to expand...

The person I was referring to was not one of the three, but one of those three appeared to pivot a bit after hearing answers from the other two, particularly one who clearly had prepared an excellent and reasonable answer.


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## RichA (Jul 6, 2021)

For what it's worth, I've spent over 3 hours every working day on public transport to and around London for the last 18 months. I've witnessed the odd comment about masks or lack of masks. I haven't witnessed a single dispute that threatened to go beyond tutting.


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## GB72 (Jul 6, 2021)

Honestly a litlte nervous for Friday, going to be on public transport as well as going to a restaurant and pubs that are not my village local. Not even sure I know how pubs work at the moment as in my local a quick gesture to the bar and they know that I want another pint of my usual and the owners and staff are friends so they just check if I need a drink whilst dropping over for a chat.


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## drdel (Jul 6, 2021)

One minute we moan because 'big brother' introduces controls now we moan because the responsibility has been given back to the individual.

The country simply cannot afford to go on as we are. The time has come for economics to take account of the pandemic and for society to manage and work around it. The UK's vaccine programme and future vaccines provide the option to contain the virus.

Surely we have all learnt over the year what is prudent behaviour and it should not need laws to tell you.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Honestly a litlte nervous for Friday, going to be on public transport as well as going to a restaurant and pubs that are not my village local. *Not even sure I know how pubs work at the moment* as in my local a quick gesture to the bar and they know that I want another pint of my usual and the owners and staff are friends so they just check if I need a drink whilst dropping over for a chat.
		
Click to expand...

Most are doing similar, check in, table service only with the more modern pubs having their own app so you don't even have to worry about getting the attention of staff, enjoy your drink and food!


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## williamalex1 (Jul 6, 2021)

Oops !  for 15 months I've been wearing my blue/white masks inside out DOH !. 
 The wife just noticed yesterday


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## The Dog. (Jul 6, 2021)

I am not wearing a mask any more. It makes no sense to me and my wife who is a medic, completely agrees. Wear a mask to walk into a pub with three mates, sit down and you can all take them off and sit together. Same air, same space. In fact you're closer to each other than you were when you walked in. It is an utter nonsense.  Or wear a visor that stops nowt! Completely crazy. 

The vulnerable are all double jabbed as well? And if in two weeks time the government are going to remove compulsory masks, what will change in the next 13 days to mean circumstances are radically different? The world has gone absolutely crazy. In the US, where they are nowhere near our level of vaccination, masks and social distancing have been consigned to history for over 6 weeks and they are back to normal, living with the virus like they do with countless others. 

There is a collective madness here, evidenced by many of you on this thread.  A virus that kills a tiny minority that has now been vaccinated against is still dominating the lives of Brits and it is absolutely ridiculous. But don't let that stop some of you shouting any dissenting voice down. I think you're all mildly crackers to be honest.


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## DRW (Jul 6, 2021)

Looks like we are going Israel, Singapore etc style moving forward and relying on the power of vaccines/edit infected immunity.

I for one, will be glad to see the end of the micro management of my life by law.

Hope we get to the 19/7 without changes. I know some things wont be changing for me for a while at least. Life is full of trade offs and loved ones are more important than nights out on the town.....


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## GB72 (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Most are doing similar, check in, table service only with the more modern pubs having their own app so you don't even have to worry about getting the attention of staff, enjoy your drink and food!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, you sort of forget how you get used to how your local works and forget about the practicalities of pubs outside of that (in this case, York)


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I am not wearing a mask any more. It makes no sense to me and my wife who is a medic, completely agrees. Wear a mask to walk into a pub with three mates, sit down and you can all take them off and sit together. Same air, same space. In fact you're closer to each other than you were when you walked in. It is an utter nonsense.  Or wear a visor that stops nowt! Completely crazy.

The vulnerable are all double jabbed as well? And if in two weeks time the government are going to remove compulsory masks, what will change in the next 13 days to mean circumstances are radically different? The world has gone absolutely crazy. In the US, where they are nowhere near our level of vaccination, masks and social distancing have been consigned to history for over 6 weeks and they are back to normal, living with the virus like they do with countless others.

There is a collective madness here, evidenced by many of you on this thread.  A virus that kills a tiny minority that has now been vaccinated against is still dominating the lives of Brits and it is absolutely ridiculous. But don't let that stop some of you shouting any dissenting voice down. I think you're all mildly crackers to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

It makes no sense to place a physical barrier which will reduce the passage of virus? Really, it isn't rocket science. 

What sort of "medic" is your wife?

There are clearly contradictions in the policies, these have been pointed out frequently, but the existence of one contradiction doesn't mean that any sane person then abandons all common sense.

And how many times do people have to be told that it is not all about death rates.


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## DRW (Jul 6, 2021)

Robert Dingwall 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺 Reunite on Twitter: "As a member of government advisory bodies, I have always felt it would be incompatible with that status not to wear a face covering where legally required to. However, I shall cease to do so from 19 July when these requirements lapse. (1/10)" / Twitter

Interesting such a person would choose to make such a 10 part tweet, but but the science, the science.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2021)

drdel said:



			One minute we moan because 'big brother' introduces controls now we moan because the responsibility has been given back to the individual.

The country simply cannot afford to go on as we are. The time has come for economics to take account of the pandemic and for society to manage and work around it. The UK's vaccine programme and future vaccines provide the option to contain the virus.

*Surely we have all learnt over the year what is prudent behaviour and it should not need laws to tell you.*

Click to expand...

I don't have that kind of faith in people.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It makes no sense to place a physical barrier which will reduce the passage of virus? Really, it isn't rocket science. What sort of "medic" is your wife?

There are clearly contradictions in the policies, these have been pointed out frequently, but the existence of one contradiction doesn't mean that any sane person then abandons all common sense.

And how many times do people have to be told that it is not all about death rates.
		
Click to expand...

You're probably best engaging with that one. Its just blatant trolling. 

Ethan, is there any published evidence as to the efficacy of face coverings? 
Things like home made cloth masks, snoods and disposable masks that have been used for months? 

I'm genuinely interested as I'm not convinced by it, based on the efforts we have to go through to get people to wear and dispose of mask properly.


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## GB72 (Jul 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			You're probably best engaging with that one. Its just blatant trolling.

Ethan, is there any published evidence as to the efficacy of face coverings?
Things like home made cloth masks, snoods and disposable masks that have been used for months?

I'm genuinely interested as I'm not convinced by it, based on the efforts we have to go through to get people to wear and dispose of mask properly.
		
Click to expand...

I am sure that I read an article last year that stated that snoods and gaters were actually worse than wearing no covering at all. Ditched all of mine and swapped them for masks so as not to take any chances but the reasearch on which were more effective never seemed widley published


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## RichA (Jul 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			There is a collective madness here, evidenced by many of you on this thread.  A virus that kills a tiny minority that has now been vaccinated against is still dominating the lives of Brits and it is absolutely ridiculous. But don't let that stop some of you shouting any dissenting voice down. I think you're all mildly crackers to be honest.
		
Click to expand...

My own observations on here and in real life are that the vast majority of us are trying to get on with normal life while making adjustments to fit in with the law, the guidelines and decent behaviour for a civilised society.
Maybe if you dissent in a less extreme and argumentative way you won't get "shouted down." Unless you're trying to provoke an argument, of course.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			You're probably best engaging with that one. Its just blatant trolling.

Ethan, is there any published evidence as to the efficacy of face coverings?
Things like home made cloth masks, snoods and disposable masks that have been used for months?

I'm genuinely interested as I'm not convinced by it, based on the efforts we have to go through to get people to wear and dispose of mask properly.
		
Click to expand...

There is ample evidence, and Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance reiterated this last evening. Here is one example, and a fact check. It is quite hard to do a double blind randomised study for masks, but evidence from testing masks, and from seeing infection rates in settings where they are used compared to settings of similar risk where they are not support their use. Masks are normal practice for surgeons and theatre nurses, and there is no evidence whatsoever that they, including asthmatics, are adversely affected by masks. 

They are not a panacea, but with no risk attached, the benefit-risk is clearly favourable.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			My own observations on here and in real life are that the vast majority of us are trying to get on with normal life while making adjustments to fit in with the law, the guidelines and decent behaviour for a civilised society.
Maybe if you dissent in a less extreme and argumentative way you won't get "shouted down." Unless you're trying to provoke an argument, of course.
		
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In the culture war, some people want to be seen as the oppressed or down-trodden. It gives them a feeling of justification for what they see as their brave fight back.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			You're probably best engaging with that one. Its just blatant trolling.

Ethan, is there any published evidence as to the efficacy of face coverings?
Things like home made cloth masks, snoods and disposable masks that have been used for months?

I'm genuinely interested as I'm not convinced by it, based on the efforts we have to go through to get people to wear and dispose of mask properly.
		
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The problem is that for every article you find to say they work you can find another that says they don't. I think the type of mask is probably at the crux of the question, if it's the bog standard cloth one then they're almost certainly no good and may result in an increased risk of infection due to moisture retention, reuse and poor filtration. If everyone wore properly fitted surgical masks then there may be a greater affect however this isn't feasible for this to work properly they've had to be single use which would create it's own issues. 

Even today, Professor Robert Dingwall, Deputy CMO/member of the UK Joint Committee on Vaccination & Immunisation (JCVI) has said that the evidence for masks isn't strong in either direction.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			You're probably best engaging with that one. Its just blatant trolling.

Ethan, is there any published evidence as to the efficacy of face coverings?
Things like home made cloth masks, snoods and disposable masks that have been used for months?

I'm genuinely interested as I'm not convinced by it, based on the efforts we have to go through to get people to wear and dispose of mask properly.
		
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If you place a barrier like a mask over your mouth and nose it must reduce the projection of breath and droplets being expelled.  They will still be expelled but if they travel a shorter distance from you then the mask has to be a benefit.   Of course the benefit will be proportional to the filtering quality of the covering.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is ample evidence, and Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance reiterated this last evening. Here is one example, and a fact check. It is quite hard to do a double blind randomised study for masks, but evidence from testing masks, and from seeing infection rates in settings where they are used compared to settings of similar risk where they are not support their use. *Masks are normal practice for surgeons and theatre nurses*, and there is no evidence whatsoever that they, including asthmatics, are adversely affected by masks.

They are not a panacea, but with no risk attached, the benefit-risk is clearly favourable.
		
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But they're using surgical, single use masks which is not what the majority of the population use?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			For what it's worth, I've spent over 3 hours every working day on public transport to and around London for the last 18 months. I've witnessed the odd comment about masks or lack of masks. I haven't witnessed a single dispute that threatened to go beyond tutting.
		
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We can but hope that that continues now that it's all down to personal choice - but as noted - the experience of the United States is that once it's down to personal choice then conflict arises.


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## Bdill93 (Jul 6, 2021)

The great mask debate.

Interestingly, in my school where I am seemingly now just managing Covid cases daily, when it comes to masks and contact - they seemingly make no difference.

Any time I am conducting a contact tracing exercise with the Local Outbreak Response Team at our county council, they ask questions related to social distancing. If you have been in close personal contact with or without a mask it is irrelevant - you will still be told to isolate. Really gets me thinking, whats the point in masks then really? I thought they were to stop the spread but it seems that if you're within 2m of a positive case, youre stuffed regardless of the mask. 

I do not mind wearing one when I have to, we have implemented single use masks only on site in an effort to avoid cross contamination as many people dont regularly wash their reuseable masks. 

I will stress, I'm not anti mask at all. The only negative for me is steamed up glasses - I can live with that! Just found it interesting that distance of contact seems to be the real key!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I am not wearing a mask any more. It makes no sense to me and my wife who is a medic, completely agrees. Wear a mask to walk into a pub with three mates, sit down and you can all take them off and sit together. Same air, same space. In fact you're closer to each other than you were when you walked in. It is an utter nonsense.  Or wear a visor that stops nowt! Completely crazy.

The vulnerable are all double jabbed as well? And if in two weeks time the government are going to remove compulsory masks, what will change in the next 13 days to mean circumstances are radically different? The world has gone absolutely crazy. In the US, where they are nowhere near our level of vaccination, masks and social distancing have been consigned to history for over 6 weeks and they are back to normal, living with the virus like they do with countless others.

There is a collective madness here, evidenced by many of you on this thread.  A virus that kills a tiny minority that has now been vaccinated against is still dominating the lives of Brits and it is absolutely ridiculous. But don't let that stop some of you shouting any dissenting voice down. I think you're all mildly crackers to be honest.
		
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...and if I am in close proximity to you and ask you to put one on as I feel uncomfortable...you'll just ignore my request? - despite the guidance given yesterday about respecting such requests and the statements of the chief medical and scientific advisors.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We can but hope that that continues now that it's all down to personal choice - but as noted - the experience of the United States is that once it's down to personal choice then conflict arises.
		
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I'm not sure using the US as an example is comparable. They get angry very quickly about personal rights etc. Any area where govt touches them gets a very quick kick back in certain states. We do nto, thankfully, have that same mentality. We largely accept that govt has a role.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if I am in close proximity to you and ask you to put one on as I feel uncomfortable...you'll just ignore my request? - despite the guidance given yesterday about respecting such requests and the statements of the chief medical and scientific advisors.
		
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And if you're in close proximity to me in your mask and I then feel uncomfortable as I don't know that you're not mouthing swear words at me would you just ignore my request? Not entirely serious but it works both ways!


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## PNWokingham (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if I am in close proximity to you and ask you to put one on as I feel uncomfortable...you'll just ignore my request? - despite the guidance given yesterday about respecting such requests and the statements of the chief medical and scientific advisors.
		
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If you are in close proximity to someone after the 19th and feel uncomfortable I suggest you move away. Asking someone to put a mask on then could lead to a rather nasty outcome!


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## The Dog. (Jul 6, 2021)

RichA said:



			My own observations on here and in real life are that the vast majority of us are trying to get on with normal life while making adjustments to fit in with the law, the guidelines and decent behaviour for a civilised society.
Maybe if you dissent in a less extreme and argumentative way you won't get "shouted down." Unless you're trying to provoke an argument, of course.
		
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I am not being extreme or provocative or argumentative. * Or trolling. *  These are seemingly just the words many of you use when you attempt to climb to the moral high ground or virtue signal.   As is the suggestion that I am somehow uncivilised or indecent.   The internet is great for you eh?  I am sure you would not be saying this to my face in a pub because that would absolutely not be decent behaviour in a civilised society and you'd get a robust response too.

It seems to be that if you don't like something you stick a label on it - trolling! And wait for the rest of your clique to come and give you a reassuring message of support or for a moderator to step in with the same narrow world view. Or worse still, click on report because you don't have the wit or charm to respond properly.  It's pathetic.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if I am in close proximity to you and ask you to put one on as I feel uncomfortable...you'll just ignore my request? - despite the guidance given yesterday about respecting such requests and the statements of the chief medical and scientific advisors.
		
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Why would you put yourself in a situation where you are in close proximity to someone not wearing a mask? 

Just move away, or don't go near in the first place. Especially dogs.


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## The Dog. (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if I am in close proximity to you and ask you to put one on as I feel uncomfortable...you'll just ignore my request? - despite the guidance given yesterday about respecting such requests and the statements of the chief medical and scientific advisors.
		
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I would give you a big hug to make you feel better.  

In reality though, terrified people like you tend to leap out of the way when a selfish, maskless individual dares to be in your proximity.  However if you did ask me to put a mask on, I would politely explain that I am exempt from wearing them.

editted for profanity.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm not sure using the US as an example is comparable. They get angry very quickly about personal rights etc. Any area where govt touches them gets a very quick kick back in certain states. We do nto, thankfully, have that same mentality. We largely accept that govt has a role.
		
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That's a bit of a generalisation of Americans.  My son and his family live in Illinois and mask wearing is a legal requirement. He tells me people in his district are quite good and infection rates are very low.


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## The Dog. (Jul 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why would you put yourself in a situation where you are in close proximity to someone not wearing a mask?

Just move away, or don't go near in the first place. Especially dogs.
		
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Careful flower - you'll hurt my feelings.  Better than dropping the C-Bomb on me again though I guess.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			And if you're in close proximity to me in your mask and I then feel uncomfortable as I don't know that you're not mouthing swear words at me would you just ignore my request? Not entirely serious but it works both ways! 

Click to expand...

...and why would you feel uncomfortable about me wearing a mask in your presence?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I would give you a big hug to make you feel better.  

In reality though, terrified people like you tend to leap out of the way when a selfish, maskless bastard dares to be in your proximity.  However if you did ask me to put a mask on, I would politely explain that I am exempt from wearing them.
		
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A muzzle would be more appropriate.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and if I am in close proximity to you and ask you to put one on as I feel uncomfortable...you'll just ignore my request? - despite the guidance given yesterday about respecting such requests and the statements of the chief medical and scientific advisors.
		
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I think post July 19th, the problem becomes yours, not those around you. You would be asking someone to do something they no longer have to. They may agree but I suspect most would say no. You then have to choose whether you stay or move. I'll be honest, if I am in a situation where I don't believe I need to wear a mask I won't and I would not put one on because you ask me to. If I'm in a situation where I believe it is sensible to wear one, public transport stands out, then I would have one on anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I would give you a big hug to make you feel better.  

In reality though, terrified people like you tend to leap out of the way when a selfish, maskless bastard dares to be in your proximity.  However if you did ask me to put a mask on, I would politely explain that I am exempt from wearing them.
		
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I am not in the slightest bit terrified.  I may have concerns if I find myself in an indoor, poorly ventilated environment with many there not wearing a mask - and I might well just leave.  Meanwhile today and on here I am simply engaged in a discussion about what we have now been advised is going to be 'policy'  from the 19th.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a bit of a generalisation of Americans.  My son and his family live in Illinois and mask wearing is a legal requirement. He tells me people in his district are quite good and infection rates are very low.
		
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This is why I quoted certain states. Some states it is required, others it is down to the individual and look out anyone who tries to tell people otherwise. The mindeset is far more individualistic than over here, some states more so than others, but obviously that does not apply to everyone. I appreciate we tend to see the extreme versions on media and that does not represent all.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I would give you a big hug to make you feel better.  

In reality though, terrified people like you tend to leap out of the way when a selfish, maskless bastard dares to be in your proximity.  However if you did ask me to put a mask on, I would politely explain that I am exempt from wearing them.
		
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It is the mark of the churlish mask-refuser that they characterise people who wear a mask as being terrified or in fear. But you are right, people who do not wear a mask are selfish. And those who lie about exemptions are worse again.

Do you wear a seatbelt in the car?

edited to remove profanity and pointless needling.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and why would you feel uncomfortable about me wearing a mask in your presence?
		
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It was tongue in cheek, I will have no feelings about anyone wearing/not wearing a mask in my presence. I am just asking what right anyone has to ask anyone to put on a mask when there is no legal requirement to do so? You may feel it's the 'right' thing to do however they may feel equally strongly that it is now their right not to wear one. In all likelihood I will probably carry on wearing one on public transport just because it is such a confined space however I would also not dream of demanding that a non-wearer 'masks up'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think post July 19th, the problem becomes yours, not those around you. You would be asking someone to do something they no longer have to. They may agree but I suspect most would say no. You then have to choose whether you stay or move. I'll be honest, if I am in a situation where I don't believe I need to wear a mask I won't and I would not put one on because you ask me to. If I'm in a situation where I believe it is sensible to wear one, public transport stands out, then I would have one on anyway.
		
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Remember what we have been advised yesterday on when it would be appropriate and reasonable for me to put on a mask - and one of those situations is when someone expresses discomfort in my not wearing one.  If the context is such that it is not possible or reasonable for us to separate, then I'd put my mask on without any further hesitation or questioning of the request.


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## chrisd (Jul 6, 2021)

I just wonder whether the pubs, restaurants, cafe's etc etc will carry on cleaning like they've done during Covid? It would ensure other bugs etc aren't passed around like they probably were when the waiter/waitress gave a table a cursory wipe with a j cloth they'd used all day!


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is the mark of the churlish mask-refuser that they characterise people who wear a mask as being terrified or in fear. *But you are right, people who do not wear a mask are selfish bastards*. And those who lie about exemptions are worse again.

Do you wear a seatbelt in the car, snowflake?
		
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@Ethan Your view is so entrenched and you refuse to acknowledge an alternative viewpoint. I am not going to argue with you in terms of the science as you have your background, all I can say is that there are plenty of other in the science world who would completely disagree with you including the Deputy CMO, does that make him an idiot as well?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember what we have been advised yesterday on when it would be appropriate and reasonable for me to put on a mask - and one of those situations is when someone expresses discomfort in my not wearing one.  If the context is such that it is not possible or reasonable for us to separate, then I'd put my mask on without any further hesitation or questioning of the request.
		
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People are going to have to move past this fear or stay home, not advisable. We are moving to the next stage of this and whilst individuals can choose to go at a slower pace they do not have the right to impinge on others who are simply following the updated rules. If I go to the cinema on July 20th and the person next to me asks me to put on a mask I will not. They will have to accept that phase of this situation has passed or they will need to leave the cinema. 

There are pyschological barriers people are going to have to overcome but they can not expect everyone else to be held back whilst they catch up. We have been doing that for 18 months, we are moving on now.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 6, 2021)

My personal view is that we should de-couple what is "allowed" with what is "sensible" or "safe". 

The allowance of an activity, IMO, is not an indication of how safe or sensible it is. In given circumstances I will still wear a mask, in others I won't. 

There's a few roads around my way, wonderfully twisting and winding through the countryside, that I am _allowed_ to travel at 60mph on, the law dictates that there is no reason that I can't. But I wouldn't and nor do most people, because it's neither sensible nor safe. But I'm sure the bloke that met a tractor coming the other way last year, when he came out of his coma, was telling everyone "but I was allowed to be travelling that fast". 

We're moving on, yes. But is that a reflection of the safety and sensibility to do so? Mibbes aye, mibbes naw!


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



@Ethan Your view is so entrenched and you refuse to acknowledge an alternative viewpoint. I am not going to argue with you in terms of the science as you have your background, all I can say is that there are plenty of other in the science world who would completely disagree with you including the Deputy CMO, does that make him an idiot as well?
		
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You are right. I refuse to accept (although I acknowledge) the alternative viewpoint that not giving a shit about whether you infect other people is wrong.

I didn't say that anybody, including the deputy CMO, was an idiot, just selfish (which was a quote from whatsisname above) if they refuse to wear a mask.

Out of interest, what remark did you specially select out of context from whom, in order to make a point with which the main CMO and most other public health people would disagree?


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are right. I refuse to accept (although I acknowledge) the alternative viewpoint that not giving a shit about whether you infect other people is wrong.

I didn't say that anybody, including the deputy CMO, was an idiot, just selfish  (which was a quote from whatsisname above) if they refuse to wear a mask.

Out of interest, what remark did you specially select out of context from whom, in order to make a point with which the main CMO and most other public health people would disagree?
		
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I'm talking about the alternative viewpoint about the efficacy of non surgical facemasks, the science suggests the gains on either side are marginal so when you talk about people 'not giving a shit' it's just not the sort of language that is helpful. The are plenty of scientists on the other side of your viewpoint who would argue just as strongly as you do that the cloth and paper variants that the vast majority wear do almost nothing to stop the aerosol spray.


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## The Dog. (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



@Ethan Your view is so entrenched and you refuse to acknowledge an alternative viewpoint. I am not going to argue with you in terms of the science as you have your background, all I can say is that there are plenty of other in the science world who would completely disagree with you including the Deputy CMO, does that make him an idiot as well?
		
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I haven’t seen Ethan’s post as he is the sole member of my blocked list. Always was back in the day and always will be.   

I can imagine what it says though, typed as it no doubt was, through screams of virtue signalling anguish, accompanied by the sound of the frustrated snap of Scotty putter shafts - his equivalent of a comic collection.  Only gentle ribbing kids - don’t hit that report button! Still a safe space!! 🙂 👍🏻

I’m all for live and let live but we all have to draw a line somewhere.  I suggest the forumites that  “skweam twoll” do the same to me.  🤷🏼‍♂️


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## larmen (Jul 6, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			My personal view is that we should de-couple what is "allowed" with what is "sensible" or "safe"
		
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Also, just because it’s allowed it doesn’t mean it is suddenly compulsory to do it.

I wish we would ease into it, but there will be overcompensating. It will be the busiest Monday in a pub ever, much busier than a normal Friday.


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## larmen (Jul 6, 2021)

Btw, are people with symptoms still required to self isolate? Is track and trace still going to be a thing?


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## brendy (Jul 6, 2021)

Guys Ive edited a few posts to removing pointless needling and profanity, lets keep it mature please, no warnings or points this time.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Remember what we have been advised yesterday on when it would be appropriate and reasonable for me to put on a mask - and one of those situations is when someone expresses discomfort in my not wearing one.  If the context is such that it is not possible or reasonable for us to separate, then I'd put my mask on without any further hesitation or questioning of the request.
		
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I thought that was just a personal thing from the medical man on the podium.
It was in the three things HE would do.
Correct me if I am wrong but it’s not in the official guidance.
But would just be good manners.


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## stefanovic (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm getting very irritated by young fit looking men not wearing a mask. If they are challenged they know all they have to say is: I'm exempt.'
Well, I've always worn a mask in shops and on public transport and I'm classed as severely asthmatic which I've been all my life. 
On occasions I do have to drop my mask below the nose just to gulp some air, then I can almost guarantee someone takes me to task.

Same old story - one law for some but not others.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 6, 2021)

For clarity, I do and will continue to wear a mask if I am likely to be close to someone. If inside a public building that might happen ,because unlike outside, I might not be able to move away ( 2 m, or so)
But in this discussion we are talking the merits or otherwise of keeping mask wearing a legal requirement.
I suggest that there would be a difficult impractical situation to have it legally binding if and when places like nightclubs, cinemas, theatres are opened.
Think about it. How the hell can you have people dancing( they call it) in a nightclub having to wear a mask?   They wouldn't wear a mask.- period.
Then some journo, etc demands the police enforce the law against these lawbreakers.
Same for cinemas and theatres. 
These are places that masks fit the criteria for them to be worn in.
The Entertainment industry has crie out for re opening.
The Gov clearly want to do as asked, but they see the above difficulties, so they cannot keep the law as is and re open.
It would be chaos.
And, silh, whilst you want to see masks worn in appropriate places, where does your argument lie when you are also demanding the opening up of entertainment?
Masks do work in some circumstances, namely where droplets may pass between people.
And Im talking ordinary blue masks - not surgical ones🙄


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm talking about the alternative viewpoint about the efficacy of non surgical facemasks, the science suggests the gains on either side are marginal so when you talk about people 'not giving a shit' it's just not the sort of language that is helpful. The are plenty of scientists on the other side of your viewpoint who would argue just as strongly as you do that the cloth and paper variants that the vast majority wear do almost nothing to stop the aerosol spray.
		
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Clearly the material in the mask matters, and some people are wearing utterly ineffective face coverings. Nobody disputes that. I don't know what the prevalence of high quality make vs rubbish one is, but the paper surgical type ones you often see are decent, but masks with proper filters inside are much better. The welder's mask visor things are useless.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

The Dog. said:



			I haven’t seen Ethan’s post as he is the sole member of my blocked list. Always was back in the day and always will be.  

I can imagine what it says though, typed as it no doubt was, through screams of virtue signalling anguish, accompanied by the sound of the frustrated snap of Scotty putter shafts - his equivalent of a comic collection.  Only gentle ribbing kids - don’t hit that report button! Still a safe space!! 🙂 👍🏻

I’m all for live and let live but we all have to draw a line somewhere.  I suggest the forumites that  “skweam twoll” do the same to me.  🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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That pitiful post is the forum equivalent of a toddler reaching into their nappy and throwing poo.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			For clarity, I do and will continue to wear a mask if I am likely to be close to someone. If inside a public building that might happen ,because unlike outside, I might not be able to move away ( 2 m, or so)
But in this discussion we are talking the merits or otherwise of keeping mask wearing a legal requirement.
I suggest that there would be a difficult impractical situation to have it legally binding if and when places like nightclubs, cinemas, theatres are opened.
Think about it. How the hell can you have people dancing( they call it) in a nightclub having to wear a mask?   They wouldn't wear a mask.- period.
Then some journo, etc demands the police enforce the law against these lawbreakers.
Same for cinemas and theatres.
These are places that masks fit the criteria for them to be worn in.
The Entertainment industry has crie out for re opening.
The Gov clearly want to do as asked, but they see the above difficulties, so they cannot keep the law as is and re open.
It would be chaos.
And, silh, whilst you want to see masks worn in appropriate places, where does your argument lie when you are also demanding the opening up of entertainment?
Masks do work in some circumstances, namely where droplets may pass between people.
And Im talking ordinary blue masks - not surgical ones🙄
		
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They should keep masks as mandatory on public transport at least. Let nightclubs etc do what they want but keep track and trace so the inevitable outbreaks can be followed up. If the number of outbreaks is very low after a month or so, then perhaps do away with that then. Stopping all regs all at once make it very difficult to know which elements matter.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 6, 2021)

This counts as a face covering, right? Asking for a friend...


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 6, 2021)

I don’t believe in their efficacy. I think the advice in the beginning was sound with covid and masks before disaster capitalists lobbied for them realising it was a good little earner. 
The WHO’s budget is 30% predictable and the rest cap in hand. Donors have their preferences and and would like see change in policies when they part with their money. 
Couple the lobbying with SPI-B psychological nudging with a pull at your heart string messaging like “my mask protects you” giving this air of social responsibility and guilt tripped into masking up, here we are with this new culture war. 
I saw no real world evidence of efficacy. Nearly a year in of masks and cases rose and rose. 

If you want to wear one - great. Get personal protective ones, shave your face, get professionally face fit, wear a air fed hood. Whatever.  Maximise YOUR protection.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t believe in their efficacy. I think the advice in the beginning was sound with covid and masks before disaster capitalists lobbied for them realising it was a good little earner.
The WHO’s budget is 30% predictable and the rest cap in hand. Donors have their preferences and and would like see change in policies when they part with their money.
Couple the lobbying with SPI-B psychological nudging with a pull at your heart string messaging like “my mask protects you” giving this air of social responsibility and guilt tripped into masking up, here we are with this new culture war.
I saw no real world evidence of efficacy. Nearly a year in of masks and cases rose and rose.

If you want to wear one - great. Get personal protective ones, shave your face, get professionally face fit, wear a air fed hood. Whatever.  Maximise YOUR protection.
		
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I suspect that's a bit subjective.  I would suggest that most  infections are transmitted where masks are not worn.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I suspect that's a bit subjective.  I would suggest that most  infections are transmitted where masks are not worn.
		
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I would suggest most infections that led to deaths were transmitted in health care settings were masks are worn.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t believe in their efficacy. I think the advice in the beginning was sound with covid and masks before disaster capitalists lobbied for them realising it was a good little earner.
The WHO’s budget is 30% predictable and the rest cap in hand. Donors have their preferences and and would like see change in policies when they part with their money.
Couple the lobbying with SPI-B psychological nudging with a pull at your heart string messaging like “my mask protects you” giving this air of social responsibility and guilt tripped into masking up, here we are with this new culture war.
*I saw no real world evidence of efficacy. Nearly a year in of masks and cases rose and rose.*

If you want to wear one - great. Get personal protective ones, shave your face, get professionally face fit, wear a air fed hood. Whatever.  Maximise YOUR protection.
		
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It's a tricky one to prove or disprove IMO, we have no comparison data where this has happened before. On the flip side we saw cases rise at _xx _rate even with masks but there is no logical reason not to suggest that it may have been _yy_ rate without masks. There is just nothing to refer back to to say otherwise.

Whilst I don't believe they are a fix or a solution, in the same way that pouring sand in an engine block won't stop an oil leak, it will certainly slow it down and I'd prefer that over oil free flowing out of my engine. If the virus is expelled in breath then, whilst it won't stop the expelling of breath, a barrier in front may/should minimise the reach and spread.

Yes, some will escape, but like the sand, I'd be more confident that the flow was being at least restricted until I can get out of the situation.


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## The Dog. (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I would suggest most infections that led to deaths were transmitted in health care settings were masks are worn.
		
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Totally agree and the stats back this up.  The number of deaths that are nosocomial is very high.


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## drdel (Jul 6, 2021)

I thought a mask was to help reduce the wearer's propensity to spread coughs and sneezes distributing droplets and, to a lesser degree, inhaling potentially contaminated air.

Obviously the more dense and fine the medium is the more effective filter it is, however high filtration also impacts the ease of breathing. Thus any filtration is better than no filter.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm talking about the alternative viewpoint about the efficacy of non surgical facemasks, the science suggests the gains on either side are marginal so when you talk about people 'not giving a shit' it's just not the sort of language that is helpful. The are plenty of scientists on the other side of your viewpoint who would argue just as strongly as you do that the cloth and paper variants that the vast majority wear do almost nothing to stop the aerosol spray.
		
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Struggling with this as it seems to me to be 100% obvious that if I sneeze or cough when wearing a mask then the dispersion of droplets from my sneeze or cough is going to be significantly less than were I not wearing a mask. No mask - much greater and wider dispersion of my droplets. That seems kind of obvious unless I am missing something.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I thought that was just a personal thing from the medical man on the podium.
It was in the three things HE would do.
Correct me if I am wrong but it’s not in the official guidance.
But would just be good manners.
		
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What official guidance? - there is none other than us using our individual common sense...and that is the nub of the problem.  But I would most certainly accept the comments of the chief medical and scientific officers on what they would do in the circumstances as the guidance that the man-in-the-middle seemed unable to give.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It was tongue in cheek, I will have no feelings about anyone wearing/not wearing a mask in my presence. I am just asking what right anyone has to ask anyone to put on a mask when there is no legal requirement to do so? You may feel it's the 'right' thing to do however they may feel equally strongly that it is now their right not to wear one. In all likelihood I will probably carry on wearing one on public transport just because it is such a confined space however I would also not dream of demanding that a non-wearer 'masks up'.
		
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My point was more about me being asked to remove my mask by someone claiming that my mask-wearing made him feel uncomfortable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			For clarity, I do and will continue to wear a mask if I am likely to be close to someone. If inside a public building that might happen ,because unlike outside, I might not be able to move away ( 2 m, or so)
But in this discussion we are talking the merits or otherwise of keeping mask wearing a legal requirement.
I suggest that there would be a difficult impractical situation to have it legally binding if and when places like nightclubs, cinemas, theatres are opened.
Think about it. How the hell can you have people dancing( they call it) in a nightclub having to wear a mask?   They wouldn't wear a mask.- period.
Then some journo, etc demands the police enforce the law against these lawbreakers.
Same for cinemas and theatres.
These are places that masks fit the criteria for them to be worn in.
The Entertainment industry has crie out for re opening.
The Gov clearly want to do as asked, but they see the above difficulties, so they cannot keep the law as is and re open.
It would be chaos.
And, silh, whilst you want to see masks worn in appropriate places, where does your argument lie when you are also demanding the opening up of entertainment?
Masks do work in some circumstances, namely where droplets may pass between people.
And Im talking ordinary blue masks - not surgical ones🙄
		
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I suggest that venues have the right - if they so wish and without fear of being accused of discrimination - to require the wearing of a mask as a condition of entry and that they reserve the right to have removed from the premises anyone not wearing a mask.  And if they wish they continue with track and trace.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point was more about me being asked to remove my mask by someone claiming that my mask-wearing made him feel uncomfortable.
		
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Essentially no one has the right to ask anyone to put on or take off a mask regardless of how uncomfortable they might feel IMO.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that venues have the right - if they so wish and without fear of being accused of discrimination - to require the wearing of a mask as a condition of entry and that they reserve the right to have removed from the premises anyone not wearing a mask.
		
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I would agree yes.
Just call it part of the dress code.
No mask go somewhere else.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would agree yes.
Just call it part of the dress code.
No mask go somewhere else.
		
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What about people who wear a sunflower lanyard?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			I would agree yes.
Just call it part of the dress code.
No mask go somewhere else.
		
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...and in a few months time, when most over 18s have had the opportunity to have been fully vaccinated, I suggest that venues will require a vaccination certificate/passport as a condition of entry.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that venues have the right - if they so wish and without fear of being accused of discrimination - to require the wearing of a mask as a condition of entry and that they reserve the right to have removed from the premises anyone not wearing a mask.  And if they wish they continue with track and trace.
		
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I think this is what the Govt is aiming for with the whole personal responsibility and putting the rules back to the general population, I wonder whether some shops will decide to do the same. I can't see public transport doing it purely because of how they would manage it although I'm assuming they will ask people to do so given it's a confined space and then rely on people to follow their guidance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Essentially no one has the right to ask anyone to put on or take off a mask regardless of how uncomfortable they might feel IMO.
		
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everybody has a right to ask and a right to refuse - but nobody has a right to demand or to physically remove another's mask.  If asked to put on a mask I suspect that in most (I cannot in all honesty say all) circumstances I expect that I will do so.  If the request is ludicrous or unreasonably made, and if it caused me a problem carrying out what I was doing or about to do - then I might well look to extricate myself from the situation.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			What about people who wear a sunflower lanyard?
		
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Do people wear lanyards when they go out out.?
They could stuff it up their mask.!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think this is what the Govt is aiming for with the whole personal responsibility and putting the rules back to the general population, I wonder whether some shops will decide to do the same. I can't see public transport doing it purely because of how they would manage it although I'm assuming they will ask people to do so given it's a confined space and then rely on people to follow their guidance.
		
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Mayor Khan has already indicated that he will not be requiring TfL to require mask wearing on public transport in London as that would be inconsistent with what was set out yesterday.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that venues have the right - if they so wish and without fear of being accused of discrimination - to require the wearing of a mask as a condition of entry and that they reserve the right to have removed from the premises anyone not wearing a mask.  And if they wish they continue with track and trace.
		
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This I wholeheartedly agree with and it should be publicised that private companies can still ask for them to be worn as can companies not require them from the 19th. 

There should also be messaging on how the public if they so choose to on how to best protect themselves and options if they are uncomfortable. 

There’s a lot of psychological and societal  damage that needs repairing and they need to focus on that without the “in it together” diktat.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I would suggest most infections that led to deaths were transmitted in health care settings were masks are worn.
		
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Who said anything about infections that lead to deaths?  My point was that iMO most infections have been transmitted where masks have not been worn, also most infections were not transmitted in care homes.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 6, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			This counts as a face covering, right? Asking for a friend...
View attachment 37401

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I was a bit worried as i hadn't seen Fragger on this thread for a while, but it appears you've found the old boy 😉👍


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 6, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I was a bit worried as i hadn't seen Fragger on this thread for a while, but it appears you've found the old boy 😉👍
		
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It’s Imurgs cast off, requires a leaner physique 😂😂😎


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t believe in their efficacy.

I saw no real world evidence of efficacy. Nearly a year in of masks and cases rose and rose.

If you want to wear one - great. Get personal protective ones, shave your face, get professionally face fit, wear a air fed hood. Whatever.  Maximise YOUR protection.
		
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All that fitting stuff is great, optimises the value. But it is not necessary in everyday practice. A decent mask still clearly reduces the amount of upper respiratory material you put into the air.

Nor is is primarily a matter of protecting yourself. It mostly protects others, which is why mask refuses and fake lanyard wearers are selfish and socially irresponsible.

In the real world, look at places where simple public health measures and widespread mask use is common. Vietnam, for example. Massively fewer cases. Lots of reasons for that but masks likely contribute. Likeswise other Asian places, having learnt the lesson the hard way previously. 

Mask effectiveness is not a matter of belief. Plenty of direct and indirect evidence and no downside apart from agitating people who think they are libertarians.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suggest that venues have the right - if they so wish and without fear of being accused of discrimination - to require the wearing of a mask as a condition of entry and that they reserve the right to have removed from the premises anyone not wearing a mask.  And if they wish they continue with track and trace.
		
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I agree with what you say, but do you really think that the "patrons" would wear masks and that the management would attempt to eject those that didn't?
Bear In mind masks are not required now when in a restaurant, so cinemas and theatres would demand the same entitlement. ( the "eating" reason doesn't change the similarity of seating proximity etc).
But you don't see a problem, really?


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## Whereditgo (Jul 6, 2021)

larmen said:



			Btw, are people with symptoms still required to self isolate? Is track and trace still going to be a thing?
		
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I believe that until 16/08/21 things will continue as they are, after that date anyone who has had both doses of the vaccine will no longer be required to self isolate if the come into contact with someone who is positive.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and in a few months time, when most over 18s have had the opportunity to have been fully vaccinated, I suggest that venues will require a vaccination certificate/passport as a condition of entry.
		
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Agree with that.


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## Whereditgo (Jul 6, 2021)

I am sat here feeling like I have been run over by a bus, and the driver must have known me because I think he put it in reverse to have another go! My second dose of the vaccine was over two months ago, I imagine I would be feeling far worse now otherwise. You really don't want to catch this or pass it on to anyone! And that's not even considering the potential effects of Long Covid.

With regard to mask wearing: I struggle to understand how people can argue that they would refuse to don a mask if it made someone they were close to uncomfortable, I think it was SILH that suggested there was something called manners involved, to that I would add respect! If my actions, or inactions, were making someone else uncomfortable then I would alter what I was doing without question. Especially with something as harmless, to me, as wearing a face mask.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			everybody has a right to ask and a right to refuse - but nobody has a right to demand or to physically remove another's mask.  If asked to put on a mask I suspect that in most (I cannot in all honesty say all) circumstances I expect that I will do so.  If the request is ludicrous or unreasonably made, and if it caused me a problem carrying out what I was doing or about to do - then I might well look to extricate myself from the situation.
		
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Re your first phrase?  Are you supporting the law having the right to ask and the lawbreaker having the right to refuse. 😀.?  ( everything else you say I agree with, btw)

This is what we are talking about . At the moment the law is that everybody has a right to ask someone to ( obey the law) wear a mask (in certain circumstances ), and nobody has a right to refuse .
After 19th , the situation is..."everybody. has a right to ask someone to wear a mask and that person has a right to refuse,.".... isn't it?😀


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			With regard to mask wearing: I struggle to understand how people can argue that they would refuse to don a mask if it made someone they were close to uncomfortable, I think it was SILH that suggested there was something called manners involved, to that I would add respect! If my actions, or inactions, were making someone else uncomfortable then I would alter what I was doing without question. Especially with something as harmless, to me, as wearing a face mask.
		
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I think it will depend on what stance the shops etc take, if they decide that mask wearing in store isn't mandatory any more it won't necessarily be an issue of refusing to put it on it will be that they don't carry one to put on any more!


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## Kellfire (Jul 6, 2021)

Judging from social media it looks like my favourite bar is going to insist on mask wearing when not at your seat after the 19th and I’ll be very happy if they do.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			All that fitting stuff is great, optimises the value. But it is not necessary in everyday practice. A decent mask still clearly reduces the amount of upper respiratory material you put into the air.

Nor is is primarily a matter of protecting yourself. It mostly protects others, which is why mask refuses and fake lanyard wearers are selfish and socially irresponsible.

In the real world, look at places where simple public health measures and widespread mask use is common. Vietnam, for example. Massively fewer cases. Lots of reasons for that but masks likely contribute. Likeswise other Asian places, having learnt the lesson the hard way previously. 

Mask effectiveness is not a matter of belief. Plenty of direct and indirect evidence and no downside apart from agitating people who think they are libertarians.
		
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. 

Doesn’t matter if they’re not great for everyday practice. If you were to be concerned for your health you’d be doing all you can, and as we/if shift to personal responsibility it’s time those who would like mask wearing to continue to look at different avenues for there own personal protection and piece of mind which there is a myriad of options. 

We’ve come to a time now we’re we’ll come to the 19th and I would imagine the majority won’t be donning them, this becomes unfortunate to those who would like to still wear them for whatever reason to look and possibly feel like an outcast - which needs addressing and sympathising. 

Personally it’s a matter of belief for me when the original messaging was evidence was “weak at best”. 
Now I wouldn’t trust any test, RCT, or peer reviewed paper written or done in the last two years no matter if it’s for or against.  With scientists all having differing opinions masks have become politicised, monetised and scientists morals and ideals are full of bias.


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## Kellfire (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			. 

Doesn’t matter if they’re not great for everyday practice. If you were to be concerned for your health you’d be doing all you can, and as we/if shift to personal responsibility it’s time those who would like mask wearing to continue to look at different avenues for there own personal protection and piece of mind which there is a myriad of options. 

We’ve come to a time now we’re we’ll come to the 19th and I would imagine the majority won’t be donning them, this becomes unfortunate to those who would like to still wear them for whatever reason to look and possibly feel like an outcast - which needs addressing and sympathising. 

Personally it’s a matter of belief for me when the original messaging was evidence was “weak at best”. 
Now I wouldn’t trust any test, RCT, or peer reviewed paper written or done in the last two years no matter if it’s for or against.  With scientists all having differing opinions masks have become politicised, monetised and scientists morals and ideals are full of bias.
		
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Again, this post has all the hallmarks of being fully researched on YouTube.


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## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			.

Doesn’t matter if they’re not great for everyday practice. If you were to be concerned for your health you’d be doing all you can, and as we/if shift to personal responsibility it’s time those who would like mask wearing to continue to look at different avenues for there own personal protection and piece of mind which there is a myriad of options.

We’ve come to a time now we’re we’ll come to the 19th and I would imagine the majority won’t be donning them, this becomes unfortunate to those who would like to still wear them for whatever reason to look and possibly feel like an outcast - which needs addressing and sympathising.

Personally it’s a matter of belief for me when the original messaging was evidence was “weak at best”.
Now I wouldn’t trust any test, RCT, or peer reviewed paper written or done in the last two years no matter if it’s for or against.  With scientists all having differing opinions masks have become politicised, monetised and scientists morals and ideals are full of bias.
		
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Alternatively, err on the side of caution, just in case you’re wrong.


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## Ethan (Jul 6, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			.

Doesn’t matter if they’re not great for everyday practice. If you were to be concerned for your health you’d be doing all you can, and as we/if shift to personal responsibility it’s time those who would like mask wearing to continue to look at different avenues for there own personal protection and piece of mind which there is a myriad of options.

We’ve come to a time now we’re we’ll come to the 19th and I would imagine the majority won’t be donning them, this becomes unfortunate to those who would like to still wear them for whatever reason to look and possibly feel like an outcast - which needs addressing and sympathising.

Personally it’s a matter of belief for me when the original messaging was evidence was “weak at best”.
Now I wouldn’t trust any test, RCT, or peer reviewed paper written or done in the last two years no matter if it’s for or against.  With scientists all having differing opinions masks have become politicised, monetised and scientists morals and ideals are full of bias.
		
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Well, these things operate on a spectrum. Why stop at a properly fitted mask when you could get a hermetically sealed impenetrable space suit with its own laminar flow air system? With most of these interventions, the basic effort gives you half the benefit, and the law of diminishing returns applies above that. Everyday basic masks (but not silk scarves, snoods or woolly garments) are decent enough. Surgeons and anaesthetists spent more time closer to a person more likely to be unwell. They need a bit more. 

I am sure that given your cynicism for the intentions, you might be willing to agree that some of the early messaging was influenced by ideology or politics too. The Govt party did not like the idea of masks at all, so downplayed it until forced to change by evidence and logic. You shouldn't interpret their early position as any objective measure of the evidence. 

The change in approach has been presented as a matter of personal responsibility. Unless that is incredibly selfish, it should include wearing a mask indoors or in crowded places. I am not sure what other measures (aside from vaccination) provide the same benefit-risk balance. Happy to be enlightened. 

If you wouldn't trust any test, RCT or peer reviewed paper, then you are in the realms of opinion shopping and Facebook experts rather than science. That is a bit of a cop-out, though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

Of course we are still going to be opening everything up before the majority of ‘gig-goers’ and those who work in venues have been double-vaccinated.  Being younger and with the ‘I am invincible’ thinking of youth, I suspect many if not most will simply decide to take a chance and go to the gig - it’s their prerogative - their choice. 

But for those who work in the venues and have not been double vaccinated - well they have to make the choice of work and income and taking a risk to their health, or turning the work down to protect their health and risk losing future work. I am not sure that that is a fair choice.  I know what my son will feel forced to do - and that is work carrying the health risk.

Same choice and risk assessment as those (largely under 30) working in restaurants and bars will have to make unless masks are made a condition of entry.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course we are still going to be opening everything up before the majority of ‘gig-goers’ and those who work in venues have been double-vaccinated.  Being younger and with the ‘I am invincible’ thinking of youth, I suspect many if not most will simply decide to take a chance and go to the gig - it’s their prerogative - their choice. 

But for those who work in the venues and have not been double vaccinated - well they have to make the choice of work and income or taking a risk to their health.  I am not sure that that is a fair choice.
		
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Vaccines were opened up to all adults in mid-June and so mid August will have given most (who wanted it) the opportunity to be double jabbed just about.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 6, 2021)

I did say myriad of options, certainly not excluding any air fed sealed hood. It’s certainly what I’d wear if I felt threatened. 

More skeptical of the the WHO guidance which changed alongside when there was a almost a world wide mask mandate albeit some countries several weeks apart. Not finger pointing at one government. Though can I trust the WHO anyway? No probably not. 

I didn’t say Any test, trial or RCT. I said any written these past two years. 

I need to see it to believe it, 
Perhaps I need to sacrifice myself and contract covid, wear a mask and sit next to someone and test the efficacy real world. Or vice versa. Would you be that someone? 
If that test was available I certainly sign up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course we are still going to be opening everything up before the majority of ‘gig-goers’ and those who work in venues have been double-vaccinated.  Being younger and with the ‘I am invincible’ thinking of youth, I suspect many if not most will simply decide to take a chance and go to the gig - it’s their prerogative - their choice.

But for those who work in the venues and have not been double vaccinated - well they have to make the choice of work and income and taking a risk to their health, or turning the work down to protect their health and risk losing future work. I am not sure that that is a fair choice.  I know what my son will feel forced to do - and that is work carrying the health risk.

Same choice and risk assessment as those (largely under 30) working in restaurants and bars will have to make unless masks are made a condition of entry.
		
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You are making an assumption that masks are a major preventer of transmission. I think you are giving them more credit than they deserve. 

My daughter is 18, got her first jab 2 days after her age group was called forward. Her second is mid Aug. That's the youngest group being done by then, bearing in mind they are largely unaffected by it. Those in their mid 20's and older should be done well before then and are still largely unaffected. Anyone vulnerable will have long been double jabbed.

I'm struggling to understand your view here. You have been wanting venues, gigs etc to be open so that your son can work again. Now it is happening you don't seem to want it. It's confusing.


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## road2ruin (Jul 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You are making an assumption that masks are a major preventer of transmission. I think you are giving them more credit than they deserve.
		
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In my opinion the greatest preventer of transmission has been working from home so you have had offices and public transport crammed with people. This was probably followed by the next biggest transmission point of schools, colleges and Universities being closed with remote learning.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			In my opinion the greatest preventer of transmission has been working from home so you have had offices and public transport crammed with people. This was probably followed by the next biggest transmission point of schools, colleges and Universities being closed with remote learning.
		
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Pretty much where people mix. Stop the mixing, reduce the spread. I'd agree with you.

Sajid Javid said today that he expects infections to jump after the 19th but as long as hospitalizations remain okay then things will continue open. It's that point of starting to have to live with this, staying closed doing more damage.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course we are still going to be opening everything up before the majority of ‘gig-goers’ and those who work in venues have been double-vaccinated.  Being younger and with the ‘I am invincible’ thinking of youth, I suspect many if not most will simply decide to take a chance and go to the gig - it’s their prerogative - their choice.

*But for those who work in the venues and have not been double vaccinated - well they have to make the choice of work and income and taking a risk to their health, or turning the work down to protect their health and risk losing future work. I am not sure that that is a fair choice.  I know what my son will feel forced to do - and that is work carrying the health risk.*

Same choice and risk assessment as those (largely under 30) working in restaurants and bars will have to make unless masks are made a condition of entry.
		
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Which way do you want it; when he couldn't work his career was being stolen from him, now the clubs are opening he's being forced to go back.  The powers that be can't do right for doing wrong according to you.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You are making an assumption that masks are a major preventer of transmission. I think you are giving them more credit than they deserve.
		
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Masks are a preventer, I'm not sure how major but they must have a big influence on reducing infection.  If we consider a World where no one wore a mask then people would be projecting their breath further than when mask wearing, this would in my opinion create a greater spread of infection.   I'm an Engineer, not a virologist but logic tells me that any barrier to a force will absorb and reduce it somewhat, of course the reduction will be proportional to the mass of the barrier.
Newton's Law of Inertia tells us:
Any object which is in motion, remains in motion unless an unbalanced force acts on it.


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## IainP (Jul 6, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Pretty much where people mix. Stop the mixing, reduce the spread. I'd agree with you.

Sajid Javid said today that he expects infections to jump after the 19th but as long as hospitalizations remain okay then things will continue open. It's that point of starting to have to live with this, staying closed doing more damage.
		
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Obviously don't want this to happen, but wonder what the thresholds may be to set the alarm bells..
5000 in hospital,  120 deaths in a day
?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 6, 2021)

IainP said:



			Obviously don't want this to happen, but wonder what the thresholds may be to set the alarm bells..
5000 in hospital,  120 deaths in a day
?
		
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That is a question that decision makers across the world have faced from day 1. Who would want their job?

In a practical sense, when the ICU beds start to fill up and staff are prevented from carrying out regular tasks, being put onto covid wards.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Masks are a preventer, I'm not sure how major but they must have a big influence on reducing infection.  If we consider a World where no one wore a mask then people would be projecting their breath further than when mask wearing, this would in my opinion create a greater spread of infection.   I'm an Engineer, not a virologist but logic tells me that any barrier to a force will absorb and reduce it somewhat, of course the reduction will be proportional to the mass of the barrier.
Newton's Law of Inertia tells us:
Any object which is in motion, remains in motion unless an unbalanced force acts on it.
		
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You are 100 per cent right in regard to droplets from breath. The 2 metre rule/guidance came in because of droplets. It was/is believed that droplets do not travel further than 2 metres ( still air).
But aerosol transmission is not stopped by masks. ( The sort we are talking about- not surgical/operating theatre masks).
The virus is also carried in the breath which clearly leaves the mouth and nose , mask or no mask, and travels about a room and , if not ventilated, circulates within that room. The virus is not filtered by the mask.
That why the Gov adverts on TV today ( Sky News) urge ventilating rooms etc.
So, where they work- wear masks. And if asked or it makes someone comfortable, wear a mask . As Prof Whitty says.
But they do have their limitations, mostly defined by where they are used.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 6, 2021)

I am interested to see (I have no idea of the numbers) how America are doing? Most of their states are open

What are the stats?


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## IainP (Jul 6, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I am interested to see (I have no idea of the numbers) how America are doing? Most of their states are open

What are the stats?
		
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America & USA all here
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


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## Tashyboy (Jul 6, 2021)

Just outta interest, obviously at the moment there’s a fair bit of Covid going around in schools. In a few weeks when the kids are off school. Are Covid rates forecast to go up or down. Or don’t they really know. 🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 6, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Which way do you want it; when he couldn't work his career was being stolen from him, now the clubs are opening he's being forced to go back.  The powers that be can't do right for doing wrong according to you.
		
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I am not criticising the powers that be - I - like others on here - am simply pointing out concerns and issues that some have over the lifting of the requirement to wear a mask.  

But just to avoid misunderstanding.  

I never said his career was being stolen from him - it was understandably being put on hold - the issue was that he was one of 3m who were not able to work due to the required government measures but, unlike many on furlough or in receipt of grants, were not receiving any support/compensation for their lost income.  And that was very hard.

I am pleased that indoor venues will be able to open with no restrictions on numbers.  I have a concern that those attending a venue might not have to wear a mask even although numbers of infections are increasing rapidly; I have concerns that this is being done before all under30s have had a chance to get a 2nd jag.  Now I hope that is now all clear.


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## GB72 (Jul 7, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not criticising the powers that be - I - like others on here - am simply pointing out concerns and issues that some have over the lifting of the requirement to wear a mask. 

But just to avoid misunderstanding. 

I never said his career was being stolen from him - it was understandably being put on hold - the issue was that he was one of 3m who were not able to work due to the required government measures but, unlike many on furlough or in receipt of grants, were not receiving any support/compensation for their lost income.  And that was very hard.

I am pleased that indoor venues will be able to open with no restrictions on numbers.  I have a concern that those attending a venue might not have to wear a mask even although numbers of infections are increasing rapidly; I have concerns that this is being done before all under30s have had a chance to get a 2nd jag.  Now I hope that is now all clear.
		
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In all honesty though, do you think that people would go to clubs or gigs if they had to wear a mask indoors or sit at tables. The whole issue with that element of the hospitality industry is that it cannot really operate with any restrictions in place. That said most will have had the chance to have one if not both jabs of they got the bookings in quick.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 7, 2021)

To me it seems a second gamble on the vaccine 

The first paid off.. very much so...if it didn't would have added even more to the cost 

I hope it pays off again.. 

Much as I moan about government I would hate to make these choices. Either way someone isn't happy and tbh those in power probably never thought they would be having to make these kind of decisions ...rather than the normal ones 

So waiting and see. Hope it works for everyone's sake .. but it's got to be better than being basically under house arrest ... Almost like being in an open prison


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## 4LEX (Jul 7, 2021)

This is a real life trial and a perfect time to do it.

School holidays, less kids mixing. High vaccine take up, quiet NHS period. If you can't unlock now it'll never happen.

Mass testing should cease and we should get back to normal and trust the vaccines. Those that haven't taken them aren't worth worrying about.


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## ExRabbit (Jul 7, 2021)

But there is no real reason why we shouldn't keep using masks and distancing until everyone who wants the double jab has got them.

Is it that hard to put a mask on and not invade other people's spaces to keep us all a little bit safer for a little bit longer?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 7, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			But there is no real reason why we shouldn't keep using masks and distancing until everyone who wants the double jab has got them.

Is it that hard to put a mask on and not invade other people's spaces to keep us all a little bit safer for a little bit longer?
		
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Clearly distancing is being removed to get business back on track rather than limit their capacity

However I don't see why we can't just wear masks. It's really bit that much effort


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## Billysboots (Jul 7, 2021)

4LEX said:



			This is a real life trial and a perfect time to do it.

School holidays, less kids mixing. High vaccine take up, quiet NHS period. If you can't unlock now it'll never happen.

Mass testing should cease and we should get back to normal and trust the vaccines. Those that haven't taken them aren't worth worrying about.
		
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Agreed.

The news this morning suggests new infections may rise to as high as 100k per day. A government advisor says maybe double that.

So the government clearly has total faith in the vaccine program. If it had doubts, July 19 would not be happening.

It really is that simple.


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2021)

GB72 said:



			In all honesty though, do you think that people would go to clubs or gigs if they had to wear a mask indoors or sit at tables. The whole issue with that element of the hospitality industry is that it cannot really operate with any restrictions in place. That said most will have had the chance to have one if not both jabs of they got the bookings in quick.
		
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Why can’t it operate with restrictions in place? Why can’t masks be worn indoors?

Here in Spain, masks must be worn if not sat at a table. No dancing. 50% capacity. No more than 10 at a table. There isn’t 100% compliance but it’s not far off.


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## IainP (Jul 7, 2021)

A little reminder how things are in different stages across the globe. Oz total cases count is similar to a single day' worth in the UK, but their vaccination program has barely started 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-57744902


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## GB72 (Jul 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Why can’t it operate with restrictions in place? Why can’t masks be worn indoors?

Here in Spain, masks must be worn if not sat at a table. No dancing. 50% capacity. No more than 10 at a table. There isn’t 100% compliance but it’s not far off.
		
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How is that going to work for nightclubs which is the area of hospitality in question. No mixing, no dancing and half empty rooms and dancefloors removes their attraction to a significant number


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## Tashyboy (Jul 7, 2021)

4LEX said:



			This is a real life trial and a perfect time to do it.

School holidays, less kids mixing. High vaccine take up, quiet NHS period. If you can't unlock now it'll never happen.

Mass testing should cease and we should get back to normal and trust the vaccines. Those that haven't taken them aren't worth worrying about.
		
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This is why I asked yesterday is it forecast to be better or worse when the kids leave school. At the moment kids are supposed to stay within a school classroom bubble. The kids have there school holidays and will be mixing with kids from other schools other  classes. I don’t know what will happen, time will tell. 🤔


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2021)

GB72 said:



			How is that going to work for nightclubs which is the area of hospitality in question. No mixing, no dancing and half empty rooms and dancefloors removes their attraction to a significant number
		
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Still seeing queues at venues along the Playa here. And on a lad’s night out a couple of weeks back it was fine.

With the (imposed) distancing between tables, no more squeezing through. No 10minute wait at the bar. Is it financially viable for venues? The mark up on drinks is crazy…

Why can it be 95% accepted here but not in the U.K.?


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## PNWokingham (Jul 7, 2021)

I Don't  get the hesitancy now from people saying to maintain masks. All the vulnerable and most people over 30 will be double jabbed. Anyone who has been jabbed and others who have not been can always be cautious for another few weeks if they are concerned. People can also still wear masks in any situation if they like. Personal responsibility and not before time. I think this decision could have been taken 4 weeks ago and probably would have been if that throbber who likes a bit of extra-marital groping was not in charge! Time for normality and to focus on normal life


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Still seeing queues at venues along the Playa here. And on a lad’s night out a couple of weeks back it was fine.

With the (imposed) distancing between tables, no more squeezing through. No 10minute wait at the bar. *Is it financially viable for venues? *The mark up on drinks is crazy…

Why can it be 95% accepted here but not in the U.K.?
		
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No is the simple answer. Plenty of bar owners been interviewed stating this. City centre bars are not covering costs, town centre bars may be breaking even at best. The numbers in with tables spread is simply not enough to make it work in anything other than the shortest of short terms.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			From memory we need to get to 70% fully vaccinated (double jabbed) to achieve herd immunity and for the virus to struggle to spread. As of yesterday 33.7 million were double jabbed *which is roughly 50% of the population*. To hit that target we need to vaccinate approx 20% of the population in the next two weeks. Between 14th June and yesterday 3.5 million people got their second jab. We've got absolutely no chance of reaching 70% by 19th July. We'd need to give another 13 million 2nd jabs between now and then to hit that target, and even if we do that won't be enough as full protection doesn't happen until 2 to 3 weeks after the second jab.
		
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Did you mean the entire population (inc the under 18s) in this 50% as according to Government figures, c.64% of eligible population have been fully vaccinated. If you meant the entire population then that's a totally different kettle of swimming things.


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

4LEX said:



			This is a real life trial and a perfect time to do it.

School holidays, less kids mixing. High vaccine take up, quiet NHS period. If you can't unlock now it'll never happen.

Mass testing should cease and we should get back to normal and trust the vaccines. Those that haven't taken them aren't worth worrying about.
		
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I agree. I was actually wondering whether the cases will rise to the levels that are being banded around given that schools close for the summer in two weeks and whilst children will still mix it'll be likely with the same, smaller bunch rather than 30 odd in a confined space. I'm not claiming any background in the modelling but I would have thought we'd see cases plateau into August and then increase in September/October with schools going back with no bubbles and a lot of businesses going back into offices after the summer break so the mixing and commuting will drive the numbers up. At that point though I don't really understand the need for testing as pretty much everyone will be jabbed and it should only be those with symptoms that need to stay at home otherwise we're constantly going to have employees and school children at home for 10 days despite being fine.


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No is the simple answer. Plenty of bar owners been interviewed stating this. City centre bars are not covering costs, town centre bars may be breaking even at best. The numbers in with tables spread is simply not enough to make it work in anything other than the shortest of short terms.
		
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Correct, most hospitality (but especially clubs) work on extremely fine margins and they survive by selling low and packing people in. Those that are opening and doing so because it's better than staying shut in terms of keeping busy and trying to return to normal however they're not making any particular money and with business rate relief lessening they've got to do what they can to cobble something together. 

You're not going to have clubs opening up on the basis of people sitting down, having table service and not dancing and even if they did would people bother going? I just can't see it myself.


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No is the simple answer. Plenty of bar owners been interviewed stating this. City centre bars are not covering costs, town centre bars may be breaking even at best. The numbers in with tables spread is simply not enough to make it work in anything other than the shortest of short terms.
		
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Why “No?” It’s working here. Prices have gone up but not massively so. I just don’t ‘get’ the negativity. People are wearing masks when they’re going into places and then taking them off when they sit down. People are accepting the increases in pricing. People are accepting the numbers allowed in - why? Because they have no choice.

You believe it wouldn’t work. I’ve been seeing it work for over a year. We’ve operated under similar restrictions for month and months. 3 months ago it was max 4 at a table inside, then 6 now 10. A month ago it was mask at all times, outside the home, now it’s only when you can’t social distance or are going into a bar, restaurant etc.

It works but people in the U.K. just don’t do following rules very well.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 7, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Did you mean the entire population (inc the under 18s) in this 50% as according to Government figures, c.64% of eligible population have been fully vaccinated. If you meant the entire population then that's a totally different kettle of swimming things.
		
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Yes, the entire population. We need to get to 70% of that number to achieve herd immunity.


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Why “No?” It’s working here. Prices have gone up but not massively so. I just don’t ‘get’ the negativity. People are wearing masks when they’re going into places and then taking them off when they sit down. People are accepting the increases in pricing. People are accepting the numbers allowed in - why? Because they have no choice.

You believe it wouldn’t work. I’ve been seeing it work for over a year. We’ve operated under similar restrictions for month and months. 3 months ago it was max 4 at a table inside, then 6 now 10. A month ago it was mask at all times, outside the home, now it’s only when you can’t social distance or are going into a bar, restaurant etc.

It works but people in the U.K. just don’t do following rules very well.
		
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I don't think this has anything to do with the public not following the rules it's simple economics. Bars and clubs work on such tight margins that they simply aren't making money and I can't see sticking a few quid on every bill is going to make a difference, for them they can only operate and start making a profit when they are able to have 100% capacity with no social distancing etc, without that they are treading water at best.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Why “No?” It’s working here. Prices have gone up but not massively so. I just don’t ‘get’ the negativity. People are wearing masks when they’re going into places and then taking them off when they sit down. People are accepting the increases in pricing. People are accepting the numbers allowed in - why? Because they have no choice.

You believe it wouldn’t work. I’ve been seeing it work for over a year. We’ve operated under similar restrictions for month and months. 3 months ago it was max 4 at a table inside, then 6 now 10. A month ago it was mask at all times, outside the home, now it’s only when you can’t social distance or are going into a bar, restaurant etc.

It works but people in the U.K. just don’t do following rules very well.
		
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People in the UK have followed the rules pretty well on the whole. We wear masks to go into pubs, we check in using the app, we stick to the numbers per table, we order from the table etc. No different to how you describe. Yes, some have ignored or broken the rules outside of formal situations but that is the same the world over. You have updated us on many occasions regarding the fines dished out in Spain, the people ignoring the rules set out etc. My 'No' relates to the financial viability of a venue operating at 25%, 50%, 60% capacity. The numbers tell you it won't work. Imagine a factory operating at 25% but having the same fixed costs? It doesn't work. Add in the lack of atmoshpere in some of these places and they become less attractive to people. Jack the prices up and not enough people will go. You can increase by a certain extent but not the amount required.

I think they could have kept the masks on restriction, although not when eating and drinking of course which rules out their use in bars and restaurants, but the numbers have to return or hospitality collapses. The sector can not keep on taking out loans.

Edit : (Don't be tricked by social media or actual media that there is mass rebellion happening in the UK regarding restrictions. There really is not. Don't forget how we queue obediently, tut when others don't. We might grmuble but we follow instructions pretty well as a nation )


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## jim8flog (Jul 7, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			The daughter, who is 25 and is not over anxious but tends towards the cautious, says she can never envisage visiting a nightclub again.  .
		
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When I reached the age of 25 I had a similar view but that was back in 70s


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are 100 per cent right in regard to droplets from breath. The 2 metre rule/guidance came in because of droplets. It was/is believed that droplets do not travel further than 2 metres ( still air).
But aerosol transmission is not stopped by masks. ( The sort we are talking about- not surgical/operating theatre masks).
The virus is also carried in the breath which clearly leaves the mouth and nose , mask or no mask, and travels about a room and , if not ventilated, circulates within that room. The virus is not filtered by the mask.
That why the Gov adverts on TV today ( Sky News) urge ventilating rooms etc.
So, where they work- wear masks. And if asked or it makes someone comfortable, wear a mask . As Prof Whitty says.
But they do have their limitations, mostly defined by where they are used.
		
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The aerosol breath must be affected by a barrier. It will still get through but it's velocity has to be reduced by a mask and as such will not travel as far and fall to the ground earlier than If exhaled directly.   I understand a mask will not stop it but depending on the quality it will reduce its ability to travel.


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			People in the UK have followed the rules pretty well on the whole. We wear masks to go into pubs, we check in using the app, we stick to the numbers per table, we order from the table etc. No different to how you describe. Yes, some have ignored or broken the rules outside of formal situations but that is the same the world over. You have updated us on many occasions regarding the fines dished out in Spain, the people ignoring the rules set out etc. My 'No' relates to the financial viability of a venue operating at 25%, 50%, 60% capacity. The numbers tell you it won't work. Imagine a factory operating at 25% but having the same fixed costs? It doesn't work. Add in the lack of atmoshpere in some of these places and they become less attractive to people. Jack the prices up and not enough people will go. You can increase by a certain extent but not the amount required.

I think they could have kept the masks on restriction, although not when eating and drinking of course which rules out their use in bars and restaurants, but the numbers have to return or hospitality collapses. The sector can not keep on taking out loans.

Edit : (Don't be tricked by social media or actual media that there is mass rebellion happening in the UK regarding restrictions. There really is not. Don't forget how we queue obediently, tut when others don't. We might grmuble but we follow instructions pretty well as a nation )
		
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And @road2ruin 

You both have your beliefs, well reasoned and educated. I have real experiences of it working. In reality, I think we’re both right and both wrong. Spain started phased unlocking of access a long time ago, and although it seems to work financially, that’s too simplistic. I’ve seen long established businesses disappear, and I’ve spoken to a number of business owners I know personally/socially. Some are struggling, really struggling, and some are doing fine. Dare say some are somewhere else on the scale of things. Is 50% sustainable? No it isn’t. There is no easy fix, and what might work for one might not for another - both right and both wrong(?).

As you say, fixed costs don’t change. Managing controllable costs won’t get anywhere near balancing the books. Btw, the factory isn’t operating at 25% - that’s an extreme example used to justify a point, and isn’t credible.

In my view, the phased return that Spain has used is the right way, partly. And I believe that’s what the U.K. should have done a couple of months ago.


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The aerosol breath must be affected by a barrier. It will still get through but it's velocity has to be reduced by a mask and as such will not travel as far and fall to the ground earlier than If exhaled directly.   I understand a mask will not stop it but depending on the quality it will reduce its ability to travel.
		
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It’s also not binary. Remember, it’s also about viral load. Reduce the load might reduce the impact.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2021)

This seems to be the thread on which the sun never sets 🙂


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			This seems to be the thread on which the sun never sets 🙂
		
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Thankfully, it appears to have a mask on today. 48* in the sun yesterday afternoon, and unbearable. #aircon at full blast


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## DRW (Jul 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The aerosol breath must be affected by a barrier. It will still get through but it's velocity has to be reduced by a mask and as such will not travel as far and fall to the ground earlier than If exhaled directly.   I understand a mask will not stop it but depending on the quality it will reduce its ability to travel.
		
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I assume you realise true aerosol(not big spit droplets), stays in the air for hours and floats around on air movement and does not readily fall to the ground . Like fine dust does that you can see in sunrays or smoke inside, hours in the air. The slightly bigger aerosols, slowly evaporate over time and still remain in the air and most of what exhale is aerosol btw. Only the spit kind fall to the ground.

You are kidding yourself if you think the kind of masks people are wearing in the community are really helping with aerosols. Thankfully some people wear better masks.

You also need to think about the law of unintended consequences....

Went to get jab, forced to stand in the same place as the last person wearing a mask. So I breath in their exhaled air in the same spot. Goto hospital forced to take off a N99 mask and put on a surgical mask. No windows open. You cant make it up, even from places that should know better.

The only thing that interests me with a mask, is how much does it filter the virus from the breath and keep in the filter for the length of time the wearer wears it. How many people actually wear them properly and use them properly. 

These are all reasons that masks used in the community have never really been proved to help under any kind of RCT and the science evidence is weak. Masks got political and were mandated. If you think RCT in the community has shown different, please put up the link, I think science is great, love to see such a larger scale RCT in the community and would happy to change my opinion on masks, as I am not so entrenched with my opinions not to flex them?

I would go as far to say I wouldn't even wear the kind of N99 I wear to do car spraying or loft insulation or handling the grey boards on garage roofs, they are really a poor seal and probably pretty useless as well in filter that much of the virus for you or me the wearer imho.


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## DRW (Jul 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think this has anything to do with the public not following the rules it's simple economics. Bars and clubs work on such tight margins that they simply aren't making money and I can't see sticking a few quid on every bill is going to make a difference, for them they can only operate and start making a profit when they are able to have 100% capacity with no social distancing etc, without that they are treading water at best.
		
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Its pretty sad reading lots of accounts at the moment, even industries not overly affected by capacity. Lots of companies work on 1-2 year contracts under fixed prices but costs have been increasing or supplies are really hard to get hard of. Some clearly kicking the trend and doing well.

Keep hearing also about a big bout of inflation coming though the system, hope thats wrong as we could do without that on top.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2021)

DRW said:



			I assume you realise true aerosol(not big spit droplets), stays in the air for hours and floats around on air movement and does not readily fall to the ground . Like fine dust does that you can see in sunrays or smoke inside, hours in the air. The slightly bigger aerosols, slowly evaporate over time and still remain in the air and most of what exhale is aerosol btw. Only the spit kind fall to the ground.

You are kidding yourself if you think the kind of masks people are wearing in the community are really helping with aerosols. Thankfully some people wear better masks.

You also need to think about the law of unintended consequences....

Went to get jab, forced to stand in the same place as the last person wearing a mask. So I breath in their exhaled air in the same spot. Goto hospital forced to take off a N99 mask and put on a surgical mask. No windows open. You cant make it up, even from places that should know better.

The only thing that interests me with a mask, is how much does it filter the virus from the breath and keep in the filter for the length of time the wearer wears it. How many people actually wear them properly and use them properly.

These are all reasons that masks used in the community have never really been proved to help under any kind of RCT and the science evidence is weak. Masks got political and were mandated. If you think RCT in the community has shown different, please put up the link, I think science is great, love to see such a larger scale RCT in the community and would happy to change my opinion on masks, as I am not so entrenched with my opinions not to flex them?

I would go as far to say I wouldn't even wear the kind of N99 I wear to do car spraying or loft insulation or handling the grey boards on garage roofs, they are really a poor seal and probably pretty useless as well in filter that much of the virus for you or me the wearer imho.
		
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Here you are then 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91487-7#Fig1


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## DRW (Jul 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Here you are then

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91487-7#Fig1

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Thats not a RCT in the community or anywhere tbh?


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2021)

DRW said:



			Thats not a RCT in the community or anywhere tbh?  

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So how would you design an RCT for masks, what endpoints and how would you blind the allocation to masks vs no masks and ensure other variables remain constant? Asking for a friend.


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## GB72 (Jul 7, 2021)

Guess this whole having to self isolate thing has hit home a little more today. Restaurant booked for wife's birthday in York on Friday have had to cancel becuase staff have had to isolate due to a positive contact. Really can see how easy it is to shut down a whole business due to pings from the NHS app. Not sure I know whether these things are for the best or not but it does show how quickly it can have an impact.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2021)

DRW said:



			Thats not a RCT in the community or anywhere tbh?  

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The point in question was wether masks are effective in the reduction of aerosol and droplet particles of breath.  That in depth study shows they are very effective in both cases.  You suggested they were not effective in preventing aerosol particles, do you accept the findings of this research study?


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## theoneandonly (Jul 7, 2021)

I'd be OK with masks being kept mandatory in shops and public transport for a while longer, elswhere they seem a little pointless.


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## GB72 (Jul 7, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I'd be OK with masks being kept mandatory in shops and public transport for a while longer, elswhere they seem a little pointless.
		
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I think that is pretty much how I feel. Honestly, if it would help going forward, I would be happy doing that through flu seaseon as well. No hardship really in that.


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## DRW (Jul 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The point in question was neither masks are effective in the reduction of aerosol and droplet particles of breath.  That in depth study shows they are very effective in both cases.  You suggested they were not effective in preventing aerosol particles, do you accept the findings of this research study?
		
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Oh I dont dispute what the article shows. The talking and coughing activities(doesnt seem to show breathing) and the surgical masks catching some of the virus.

I put above :-

You are kidding yourself if you think the kind of masks people are wearing in the community are really helping with aerosols. Thankfully some people wear better masks. 

Dont see how how what I have said disagrees with that link(snoods and paper masks are not surgical masks btw). Either way, I am not disputing what that link shows.

Out of interest do you think that aerosols fall to the ground and can not can travel around a whole room on air movements, which what you said before(unless I read it wrong)?

There are various mask RCTs done in the community(&healthcare settings) pre 2020, and all that I have seen do not provide strong evidence masks help in the community. RCT is kind of the gold standard something working in real life, assuming it is setup right, science tends to follows a clear pattern :-



Anyway all the best, dont really have anything more to add. Clearly I believe masks work, as wear them for things like car spraying, loft insulation, N99s inside and so on. I love a good mask chat, as it splits opinions for covid


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			I'd be OK with masks being kept mandatory in shops and public transport for a while longer, elswhere they seem a little pointless.
		
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The cynic in me says that the only reason that masks were even made mandatory was that in July everything was opened up and the Govt had done such a good job of scaring people that large numbers felt too scared to leave the house. Masks were used as a placebo to encourage people to venture out with a bit of a security blanket!!

That said I don't have a particular issue using one in shops or on public transport if I was advised, it's not the end of the world.


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Guess this whole having to self isolate thing has hit home a little more today. Restaurant booked for wife's birthday in York on Friday have had to cancel because staff have had to isolate due to a positive contact. Really can see how easy it is to shut down a whole business due to pings from the NHS app. Not sure I know whether these things are for the best or not but it does show how quickly it can have an impact.
		
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I wonder how much self isolation will actually happen now, especially amongst those who have had 2 jabs (and 2 weeks) who have been told that in a months time they will not have to. In the situation whereby you have an event and then get pinged by the app or contacted by track and trace is the compliance going to suffer?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder how much self isolation will actually happen now, especially amongst those who have had 2 jabs (and 2 weeks) who have been told that in a months time they will not have to. In the situation whereby you have an event and then get pinged by the app or contacted by track and trace is the compliance going to suffer?
		
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With the projected number of infections there is going to be a very large number of people needing to self isolate which will create quite a lot of disruption to services and business.


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			With the projected number of infections there is going to be a very large number of people needing to self isolate which will create quite a lot of disruption to services and business.
		
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The suggestion is that it could be 4-5 million contacts that are asked to isolate, I just wanted how many of them will actually do that especially those who are double jabbed and know that in a couple of weeks they would not be required to do so. An example would be that the school holidays start in a couple of weeks, what happens in the first week of August if you are off on holiday but one of you is asked to isolate. Are people going to listen to that knowing that in a short period after that requirement will be removed. My feeling is that a fair number will probably not bother.


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## patricks148 (Jul 7, 2021)

Pro at Edzell was telling us yesterday a guy came in the shop with no mask for the senior open earlier,  then complained about having to wear a mask when he was asked to put one on. After complying he asked to be checked in and said his mate so and so wouldn't be coming..
He had covid...


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The suggestion is that it could be 4-5 million contacts that are asked to isolate, I just wanted how many of them will actually do that especially those who are double jabbed and know that in a couple of weeks they would not be required to do so. An example would be that the school holidays start in a couple of weeks, what happens in the first week of August if you are off on holiday but one of you is asked to isolate. Are people going to listen to that knowing that in a short period after that requirement will be removed. My feeling is that a fair number will probably not bother.
		
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Letting contacts who have been double vax'd plus 2 weeks to skip isolation is a sensible and proportionate step, in my opinion. Likewise travellers from amber countries. They could also have scrapped masks and social distancing outdoors. Never really was needed. 

Indoors is where the problems arise. Scrapping masks and social distancing indoors at the same time as capacity controls is taking a big risk.


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2021)

DRW said:



			Oh I dont dispute what the article shows. The talking and coughing activities(doesnt seem to show breathing) and the surgical masks catching some of the virus.

I put above :-

You are kidding yourself if you think the kind of masks people are wearing in the community are really helping with aerosols. Thankfully some people wear better masks.

Dont see how how what I have said disagrees with that link(snoods and paper masks are not surgical masks btw). Either way, I am not disputing what that link shows.

Out of interest do you think that aerosols fall to the ground and can not can travel around a whole room on air movements, which what you said before(unless I read it wrong)?

There are various mask RCTs done in the community(&healthcare settings) pre 2020, and all that I have seen do not provide strong evidence masks help in the community. RCT is kind of the gold standard something working in real life, assuming it is setup right, science tends to follows a clear pattern :-
View attachment 37412


Anyway all the best, dont really have anything more to add. Clearly I believe masks work, as wear them for things like car spraying, loft insulation, N99s inside and so on. I love a good mask chat, as it splits opinions for covid 

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I design RCTs for a living, was just doing one a short time ago, and I agree they represent the gold standard for specific clinical questions. However, that does not mean that an RCT is always the most suitable study design, or is feasible (or ethical) and other forms of evidence can make a case for something to be the cause of the effect of interest. 

Studies of masks don't lend themselves to RCTs because you can't really offer a blinded placebo version. Also, measuring transmissibility is tricky because you can't  track who was infected unless you follow the trial subject around and literally record every interaction with another human (then consent them to get their medical information), track what happens to them, and note every time the subject touches a doorknob after sneezing into their hand but mot washing, and then who touches it. None of the vaccine studies measured transmissibility for that reason. 

The evidence for masks comes from a combination of observations - that the mask impedes (perhaps not entirely, but to some degree) the flow of certain particles (sneeze studies, basically). Then you have evidence on ithe amount of virus needed to trigger an infection (viral load), you look at infection rates in people who wear masks or who don't wear masks, and also compare regions or countries where mask wearing is high or low. These pieces of evidence add up, and then if you consider the risks, which are few, it seems like a kind of a no-brainer. It seems unlikely that in Vietnam,  mask wearing, which is very high and other public health measures, did not contribute to a death rate almost 2000 times lower than the UK (1 per million vs almost 1900 per million). And before you ask, it is a more populous country and has a higher population density than the UK and the data systems in their health system are good.


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Letting contacts who have been double vax'd plus 2 weeks to skip isolation is a sensible and proportionate step, in my opinion. Likewise travellers from amber countries. They could also have scrapped masks and social distancing outdoors. Never really was needed.

Indoors is where the problems arise. Scrapping masks and social distancing indoors at the same time as capacity controls is taking a big risk.
		
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I completely agree with you. I was just wondering out loud about how many of those people will continue to isolate over the next few weeks especially with the start of the summer holidays still being within the period that everyone is meant to self isolate for 10 days if requested. If you are especially unlucky you might be told to isolate for 10 days when you were off on holiday the next day even though in a week's time you wouldn't have to isolate if that makes sense. I'm not convinced I would miss my holiday in those circumstances.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder how much self isolation will actually happen now, especially amongst those who have had 2 jabs (and 2 weeks) who have been told that in a months time they will not have to. In the situation whereby you have an event and then get pinged by the app or contacted by track and trace is the compliance going to suffer?
		
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I had my 2nd jab two weeks ago today, I can now attend mass trial events. Why on earth should I, or anyone else in the same boat, have to wait until next month to not need to isolate? More than happy to do daily testing if need be but ff they think I'm losing two weeks wages despite being fully protected they're going to be disappointed.


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## Kellfire (Jul 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I had my 2nd jab two weeks ago today, I can now attend mass trial events. Why on earth should I, or anyone else in the same boat, have to wait until next month to not need to isolate? More than happy to do daily testing if need be but ff they think I'm losing two weeks wages despite being fully protected they're going to be disappointed.
		
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 You aren’t fully protected with two jabs and could still pass it on to many others.


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## D-S (Jul 7, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Why “No?” It’s working here. Prices have gone up but not massively so. I just don’t ‘get’ the negativity. People are wearing masks when they’re going into places and then taking them off when they sit down. People are accepting the increases in pricing. People are accepting the numbers allowed in - why? Because they have no choice.

You believe it wouldn’t work. I’ve been seeing it work for over a year. We’ve operated under similar restrictions for month and months. 3 months ago it was max 4 at a table inside, then 6 now 10. A month ago it was mask at all times, outside the home, now it’s only when you can’t social distance or are going into a bar, restaurant etc.

It works but people in the U.K. just don’t do following rules very well.
		
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Just read in The Times this morning (can’t post the link as it’s behind a paywall) that Catalonia has just closed it’s nightclubs due to a fivefold increase in cases, Navarra and Cantabria are also now shutting or restricting hours of night clubs due to soaring cases.


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You aren’t fully protected with two jabs and could still pass it on to many others.
		
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The point is that in a month or so he’ll be exactly the same so won’t have to isolate so the argument is will some bother in the interim?


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2021)

D-S said:



			Just read in The Times this morning (can’t post the link as it’s behind a paywall) that Catalonia has just closed it’s nightclubs due to a fivefold increase in cases, Navarra and Cantabria are also now shutting or restricting hours of night clubs due to soaring cases.
		
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Andalusia reported over 6,000 new cases yesterday. Some municipalities are going into perimeter lockdown. Malaga has reported over 1,100 in the last 2 days.

Andalucian President has said further, scheduled relaxations won’t happen but restrictions will.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 7, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The aerosol breath must be affected by a barrier. It will still get through but it's velocity has to be reduced by a mask and as such will not travel as far and fall to the ground earlier than If exhaled directly.   I understand a mask will not stop it but depending on the quality it will reduce its ability to travel.
		
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Don't think so, SR😀.
Aerosol breath is exactly that. Breath. Pretty much like air. You can liken it to exhaled breath from a smoker. It just circulates around without falling to the ground. The little beasties float around in it quite happily, which is why when outside, the air disperses( in the stronger air currents) and so the concentration of the breath -air with beasties in it- is very much reduced, again like smoke, and so infection is very unlikely in the open air.
But, In unventilated indoor rooms, again like smoke, it hands around long enough to infect.
Surgical masks will filter the beasties from this air that is breathed in, but I have my doubts that ordinary masks that we see being worn, will do that.
If it is proved that they do, then great.
Btw- I have always said that it's wise to wear masks  where they prevent droplet transmission 😀
.
Edit.  Having read Ethan's 20,156 post, and on the basis that the contents of the last paragraph are accurate, it seems the evidence points to everyday masks having some effect on aerosol. So to that extent I sit corrected😀


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I had my 2nd jab two weeks ago today, I can now attend mass trial events. Why on earth should I, or anyone else in the same boat, have to wait until next month to not need to isolate? More than happy to do daily testing if need be but ff they think I'm losing two weeks wages despite being fully protected they're going to be disappointed.
		
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The delay to next month is to have a parachute if July 19th proves to be a disastrous mistake, so they can pull back some "liberties". Not that doing so will help much, but something will have to be done, so something will be done.


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## Kellfire (Jul 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The point is that in a month or so he’ll be exactly the same so won’t have to isolate so the argument is will some bother in the interim?
		
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Because it’s the right thing to do. This decision isn’t being made in the best interest of the nation, it’s being made to curry favour.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 7, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Because it’s the right thing to do. This decision isn’t being made in the best interest of the nation, it’s being made to curry favour.
		
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Reports on Twitter (Edited to add - from blue ticked political reporters) that the government didn't have enough support from their own MPs to continue with mask wearing laws and didn't want to rely on Labour to get enough votes so has dropped them as a requirement.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't think so, SR😀.
Aerosol breath is exactly that. Breath. Pretty much like air. You can liken it to exhaled breath from a smoker. It just circulates around without falling to the ground. The little beasties float around in it quite happily, which is why when outside, the air disperses( in the stronger air currents) and so the concentration of the breath -air with beasties in it- is very much reduced, again like smoke, and so infection is very unlikely in the open air.
But, In unventilated indoor rooms, again like smoke, it hands around long enough to infect.
Surgical masks will filter the beasties from this air that is breathed in, but I have my doubts that ordinary masks that we see being worn, will do that.
If it is proved that they do, then great.
Btw- I have always said that it's wise to wear masks  where they prevent droplet transmission 😀
.
Edit.  Having read Ethan's 20,156 post, and on the basis that the contents of the last paragraph are accurate, it seems the evidence points to everyday masks having some effect on aerosol. So to that extent I sit corrected😀
		
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Also read the link I posted in #20,142. It's an in depth research paper into whether masks reduce aerosol and droplets into the air.  You should find it interesting.


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## Kellfire (Jul 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Reports on Twitter (Edited to add - from blue ticked political reporters) that the government didn't have enough support from their own MPs to continue with mask wearing laws and didn't want to rely on Labour to get enough votes so has dropped them as a requirement.
		
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I believe it.


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## patricks148 (Jul 7, 2021)

I can see trouble ahead, England dropping the use of masks, Scotland keep them
Tourism in Scotland is expecting lots of visitors from South of the border once their schools break up...


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## road2ruin (Jul 7, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			I can see trouble ahead, England dropping the use of masks, Scotland keep them
Tourism in Scotland is expecting lots of visitors from South of the border once their schools break up...
		
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But if you travel to a different country you abide by their rules so if Scotland maintain mask use then you do likewise?


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## patricks148 (Jul 7, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But if you travel to a different country you abide by their rules so if Scotland maintain mask use then you do likewise?
		
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of course you should, doesn't mean some won't.


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Reports on Twitter (Edited to add - from blue ticked political reporters) that the government didn't have enough support from their own MPs to continue with mask wearing laws and didn't want to rely on Labour to get enough votes so has dropped them as a requirement.
		
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Ah, because lives saved with opposition help aren't as important as those saved with your own party's support. Led by the science indeed.


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## Ethan (Jul 7, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Reports on Twitter (Edited to add - from blue ticked political reporters) that the government didn't have enough support from their own MPs to continue with mask wearing laws and didn't want to rely on Labour to get enough votes so has dropped them as a requirement.
		
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Could you add some links or mention who tweeted, would like to see the story. 100% believe it.


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## chellie (Jul 7, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			I can see trouble ahead, England dropping the use of masks, Scotland keep them
Tourism in Scotland is expecting lots of visitors from South of the border once their schools break up...
		
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Heard lots of Scottish accents here over the last few days. Many not wearing masks...


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 7, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Could you add some links or mention who tweeted, would like to see the story. 100% believe it.
		
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Can't link to it but Pippa Crerar replied to a tweet by Sebastian Payne......


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## patricks148 (Jul 7, 2021)

chellie said:



			Heard lots of Scottish accents here over the last few days. Many not wearing masks...
		
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Wheres over here?

At the moment everyone  should be wearing masks, no matter who they are or where they are from.  I can see an issue with two sets 0f rules.


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## chellie (Jul 8, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Wheres over here?

At the moment everyone  should be wearing masks, no matter who they are or where they are from.  I can see an issue with two sets 0f rules.
		
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On the Fylde


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## PNWokingham (Jul 8, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			You aren’t fully protected with two jabs and could still pass it on to many others.
		
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well we might as well lock down the whole economy then!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2021)

Here’s the thing.  My lad has been offered work for 24th July…hurrah - it’s a gig in Leeds.  There will likely be a few hundred attending.  Most will not have been double vaccinated.  They will most likely only have to show a negative LF test result done on the day of the gig - for what that’s worth.  Mask wearing will not be a condition of entry and few are expected to wear one.

My lad has not been double vaccinated. His job usually entails him mingling with the audience as they enter and throughout the gig.  If there is infection in the audience he’ll quite likely be exposed to it.  He cannot turn the work down as he is on UC and the DWP tend to look unfavourably on that sort of thing.

My wife is very worried that he’ll pick up the virus and 1) be forced to isolate if pinged = loss of work end of July early August now booked in and 2) develop long covid.  She’s worried.  She’s a mum.

What‘s the answer? Well if he had any sort of compensation from gov for loss of work and income then delay reopening of venues until most under 30s are double vaccinated.  But none of that is going to happen - so we will look to buy the most effective masks for him to wear - and he will try and minimise the time he is in close proximity with the audience.  But it is worrying.

And of course exactly the same worry is with all those not double-vaccinated who work in the hospitality sector and are now facing the risk of regular exposure to a potentially rampant delta variant indoors from the 19th. But hey.  Freedom Day. Celebrate. Yeh right.  For many maybe.  Necessary maybe.  Worrying for another many certainly.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 8, 2021)

I've come out to Netherlands for work. Wore my mask on the flight and while picking up the hire car. Also wore it when I got to the hotel. Went for a walk and got the mask out to go into the shop and realised none of the people in there were wearing them. I got some very funny looks for wearing one. When I got back to the hotel I checked with one of the staff who said that they are only mandatory on public transport over here. 

Worst part of it is that I got a negative PCR test yesterday, flew out this morning and am now feeling terrible with cold/flu symptoms. Started with a slightly scratchy throat at lunchtime and progressed from there. Been alternately dosing myself up on paracetamol and ibuprofen all day and two litres of orange juice to try and knock it on the head. If I'm no better in the morning will be forced to have an interesting conversation with my agency.


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## ExRabbit (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Here’s the thing.  My lad has been offered work for 24th July…hurrah - it’s a gig in Leeds.  There will likely be a few hundred attending.  Most will not have been double vaccinated.  They will most likely only have to show a negative LF test result done on the day of the gig - for what that’s worth.  Mask wearing will not be a condition of entry and few are expected to wear one.

My lad has not been double vaccinated. His job usually entails him mingling with the audience as they enter and throughout the gig.  If there is infection in the audience he’ll quite likely be exposed to it.  He cannot turn the work down as he is on UC and the DWP tend to look unfavourably on that sort of thing.

My wife is very worried that he’ll pick up the virus and 1) be forced to isolate if pinged = loss of work end of July early August now booked in and 2) develop long covid.  She’s worried.  She’s a mum.

What‘s the answer? Well if he had any sort of compensation from gov for loss of work and income then delay reopening of venues until most under 30s are double vaccinated.  But none of that is going to happen - so we will look to buy the most effective masks for him to wear - and he will try and minimise the time he is in close proximity with the audience.  But it is worrying.

And of course exactly the same worry is with all those not double-vaccinated who work in the hospitality sector and are now facing the risk of regular exposure to a potentially rampant delta variant indoors from the 19th. But hey.  Freedom Day. Celebrate. Yeh right.  For many maybe.  Necessary maybe.  Worrying for another many certainly.
		
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Perhaps your son should look for a job with a few less risks - maybe the NHS or firefighting for instance.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 9, 2021)

Daughter sent home from school yesterday for 10 days. Apparently there was a large house party at the weekend (she didn't go) with about 70 kids all in one house, there have now been 4 positive tests in her year group


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## Mudball (Jul 9, 2021)

Got my second jab… super excited.  Somewhere between the centre to my house, I lost the little paper card.  What an idiot… I had one job


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## pauljames87 (Jul 9, 2021)

Mudball said:



			Got my second jab… super excited.  Somewhere between the centre to my house, I lost the little paper card.  What an idiot… I had one job
		
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Once your done it will be uploaded to your NHS record 

Can get off the app or call 119 to get proof of jabs


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			Perhaps your son should look for a job with a few less risks - maybe the NHS or firefighting for instance.
		
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Or he could simply turn down the work and tick over on UC for the next 12weeks or so until he is two weeks past getting his second dose of the vaccine - though if he turns it down he risks losing future work.  Ideally he’d be offered the second dose sooner by showing he has work to return to but is at risk without having it.


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## chellie (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or he could simply turn down the work and tick over on UC for the next 12weeks or so until he is two weeks past getting his second dose of the vaccine - though if he turns it down he risks losing future work.
		
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Assume he was unsuccessful then in finding other employment over the pandemic. What a shame. There is a nationwide shortage of care staff currently so opportunities there to get him off UC.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

chellie said:



			Assume he was unsuccessful then in finding other employment over the pandemic. What a shame. There is a nationwide shortage of care staff currently so opportunities there to get him off UC.
		
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He will take the work in his sector as he is desperate to get back to work, and will remain on UC until his level of work and income means he does not require it to live - that should only be a couple of month after the 19th.   He does not express great concerns to us - he has them but we are more worried for him than he expresses for himself.

Your suggestion might be brilliant, but it is not an answer to, and does not address, the risk that many hundreds of thousands if not millions of young workers in the events and hospitality sector will be facing after the 19th.  And without them working in it we risk losing much of that sector.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He will take the work in his sector as he is desperate to get back to work, and will remain on UC until his level of work and income means he does not require it to live - that should only be a couple of month after the 19th.   He does not express great concerns to us - he has them but we are more worried for him.  Your suggestion might be brilliant, but it is not an answer to, and does not address, the risk that many hundreds of thousands if not millions of young workers in the events and hospitality sector will be facing after the 19th.  And without them working in it we risk losing much of that sector.
		
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So all through the lockdowns you've moaned about the sector being closed and no one being able to work, now its opening up you're moaning about that as its too early/dangerous etc etc. You couldn't make it up 🤷‍♂️


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So all through the lockdowns you've moaned about the sector being closed and no one being able to work, now its opening up you're moaning about that as its too early/dangerous etc etc. You couldn't make it up 🤷‍♂️
		
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You actually don’t get it do you. Maybe you do but chose to pretend otherwise.

He wants to work and will work.  After the 19th the work will be there but he and all young folk in his and hospitality sectors will have to be taking the work at risk to their health because this variant has taken hold and the government seems happy for infection numbers to climb unconstrained by nothing but the vaccine - and of course the risk to health remains high until 2nd dose is received.

We should not have been in this position with the delta variant, except we are and we have a good idea why. The government could have supported the sector better - but it didn’t - and won’t start now - so it has to reopen. He (and many hundreds of thousands) will work knowing the risk to his long term health that he is running, and we will be worried for him - and that’s just how it’s going to be.


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## chellie (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He will take the work in his sector as he is desperate to get back to work, and will remain on UC until his level of work and income means he does not require it to live - that should only be a couple of month after the 19th.   He does not express great concerns to us - he has them but we are more worried for him than he expresses for himself.

Your suggestion might be brilliant, but it is not an answer to, and does not address, the risk that many hundreds of thousands if not millions of young workers in the events and hospitality sector will be facing after the 19th.  And without them working in it we risk losing much of that sector.
		
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Lots of people in hospitality have taken work elsewhere. As have workers in the airline industry, fitness industry, hairdressing to name three.


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## D-S (Jul 9, 2021)

In fact so many people have taken jobs outside the hospitality sector that they are facing massive staff shortages. Also it looks as if the Delta variant was set to be dominant anyway, see European numbers now climbing.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You actually don’t get it do you. Maybe you do but chose to pretend otherwise.

He wants to work and will work.  After the 19th the work will be there but he and all young folk in his and hospitality sectors will have to be taking the work at risk to their health because this variant has taken hold and the government seems happy for infection numbers to climb unconstrained by nothing but the vaccine - and of course the risk to health remains high until 2nd dose is received.

We should not have been in this position with the delta variant, except we are and we have a good idea why. The government could have supported the sector better - but it didn’t - and won’t start now - so it has to reopen. He (and many hundreds of thousands) will work knowing the risk to his long term health that he is running, and we will be worried for him - and that’s just how it’s going to be.
		
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Having worked 'frontline' so to speak, all the way through this thing, believe me i get it 100%


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## GreiginFife (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You actually don’t get it do you. Maybe you do but chose to pretend otherwise.

He wants to work and will work.  After the 19th the work will be there but he and all young folk in his and hospitality sectors will have to be taking the work at risk to their health because this variant has taken hold and the government seems happy for infection numbers to climb unconstrained by nothing but the vaccine - and of course the risk to health remains high until 2nd dose is received.

We should not have been in this position with the delta variant, except we are and we have a good idea why. The government could have supported the sector better - but it didn’t - and won’t start now - so it has to reopen. He (and many hundreds of thousands) will work knowing the risk to his long term health that he is running, and we will be worried for him - and that’s just how it’s going to be.
		
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And yet only 10 days ago, you said "*I would stick with 19th and lift restrictions and requirements. The chaos around schools, events and hospitality is unsustainable and so we might as well just get on with living with the virus. And that is a change from my previous risk-averse thinking. I think the impact of the current risk arising from virus is not worth the mitigations - they are a cost too far for the many individuals and business that have been seriously impacted by the lockdowns and restrictions. *"

Now that it's happened just as you described, you are still unhappy. It's starting to look like you are just a serial moaner that will never be happy, either that or you're just at the wind-up. The industry is being opened up just like you (originally) wanted and "your lad" has the option of taking the work that he has been so desperate for or he doesn't. If he doesn't it may appear that he wasn't _that_ desperate after all.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He will take the work in his sector as he is desperate to get back to work, and will remain on UC until his level of work and income means he does not require it to live - that should only be a couple of month after the 19th.   He does not express great concerns to us - he has them but we are more worried for him than he expresses for himself.

Your suggestion might be brilliant, but it is not an answer to, and does not address, the risk that many hundreds of thousands if not millions of young workers in the events and hospitality sector will be facing after the 19th.  And without them working in it we risk losing much of that sector.
		
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Why doesn’t he take work outside his sector ? Millions have moved away from their line of work to get jobs in many other areas so that they don’t have to rely on benefits or any other form of government handouts 

If your son is unwilling to venture outside his sector as you say then I’m not sure what else is expected. Im guessing he is a grown man but coming on here every day to complain and moan about his circumstances will start to get a bit tiring for everyone - especially when it seems that you want it all to fall into his lap


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## PNWokingham (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You actually don’t get it do you. Maybe you do but chose to pretend otherwise.

He wants to work and will work.  After the 19th the work will be there but he and all young folk in his and hospitality sectors will have to be taking the work at risk to their health because this variant has taken hold and the government seems happy for infection numbers to climb unconstrained by nothing but the vaccine - and of course the risk to health remains high until 2nd dose is received.

We should not have been in this position with the delta variant, except we are and we have a good idea why. The government could have supported the sector better - but it didn’t - and won’t start now - so it has to reopen. He (and many hundreds of thousands) will work knowing the risk to his long term health that he is running, and we will be worried for him - and that’s just how it’s going to be.
		
Click to expand...

The delta strain would have dominated here no matter what the government did as it was here and spreading before we even knew about it - so no need for non-subte swipes at the goverment. It is doing the same in Europe with a lag of around 5 weeks. Indeed, is totally dominant in Portugal already and around 50% in the rest of Western Europe


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## road2ruin (Jul 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			The delta strain would have dominated here no matter what the government did as it was here and spreading before we even knew about it - so no need for non-subte swipes at the goverment. It is doing the same in Europe with a lag of around 5 weeks. Indeed, is totally dominant in Portugal already and around 50% in the rest of Western Europe
		
Click to expand...

The decisions made by the Govt expedited the spread of the Delta variant but like you say, it was going to get here anyway as will any future variant, there is nothing you can do to stop them bar completely closing borders and even then it would be difficult as some travel is still needed.


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## Mudball (Jul 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Once your done it will be uploaded to your NHS record

Can get off the app or call 119 to get proof of jabs
		
Click to expand...

got it on the app.. happy days


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## Kellfire (Jul 9, 2021)

Apparently the lambda variant is now in the UK though I’m not quite sure where my brother got this information.


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## drdel (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You actually don’t get it do you. Maybe you do but chose to pretend otherwise.

He wants to work and will work.  After the 19th the work will be there but he and all young folk in his and hospitality sectors will have to be taking the work at risk to their health because this variant has taken hold and the government seems happy for infection numbers to climb unconstrained by nothing but the vaccine - and of course the risk to health remains high until 2nd dose is received.

We should not have been in this position with the delta variant, except we are and we have a good idea why. The government could have supported the sector better - but it didn’t - and won’t start now - so it has to reopen. He (and many hundreds of thousands) will work knowing the risk to his long term health that he is running, and we will be worried for him - and that’s just how it’s going to be.
		
Click to expand...

Over a year ago many of us gave you advice that the sector of entertainment was highly volatile and that a more stable job path would be the best for you son and his girl friend, even if it was just for a year or two.

As is your right you pushed back at the advice and now blame everyone. COVID 19 has caught the world flat footed not just UK and we can see that it will impact pop concerts for a while yet with added uncertainty from the Brexit transition.

I suggested back then that "the first loss is the best loss...", sometimes the 'blame' lies inside and not with everyone else being at fault. I apologise for being brutal.


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## Beezerk (Jul 9, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Apparently the lambda variant is now in the UK though I’m not quite sure where my brother got this information.
		
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Thank you, I can't stop singing La Lambada now 🙈


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Here’s the thing.  My lad has been offered work for 24th July…hurrah - it’s a gig in Leeds.  There will likely be a few hundred attending.  Most will not have been double vaccinated.  They will most likely only have to show a negative LF test result done on the day of the gig - for what that’s worth.  Mask wearing will not be a condition of entry and few are expected to wear one.

.
		
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If you recall the discussion re masks, and why they are no longer going to be legally required, I made the point that it was now having the "lawfully required " part removed to avoid the impractical and chaotic situation that would ensue when gigs etc, like the one you are describing here ,occur and some stirrer demands of the Police why they are not prosecuting those not wearing masks! In this case, hundreds!
YOU dismissed my point saying the gig organisers would/could make masks a condition of entry!
Now you see the reality.
The facts are that all who want to be protected by the first dose, can be,- and that is reasonably high protection-plus young people will likely not need hospital.
It has been decided , IMO, therefore that those lesser risks do not justify holding back the recovery of the economy any longer. Hence the present scenario.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The decisions made by the Govt expedited the spread of the Delta variant but like you say, it was going to get here anyway as will any future variant, there is nothing you can do to stop them bar completely closing borders and even then it would be difficult as some travel is still needed.
		
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Important thing in this is that we don't actually know where the variants began, we only know where they were first discovered. There is nothing to say that it didn't start here anyway. There's just too many unknowns to say what measures would work and which wouldn't IMO.


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## Beedee (Jul 9, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Apparently the lambda variant is now in the UK though I’m not quite sure where my brother got this information.
		
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From www.gov.uk
"A further variant, Lambda (C.37) has been designated as a Variant Under Investigation (VUI) on 23 June due to international expansion and several notable mutations including L452Q and F490S. The World Health Organization (WHO) classified Lambda as a Variant of Interest on 14 June."


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 9, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Worst part of it is that I got a negative PCR test yesterday, flew out this morning and am now feeling terrible with cold/flu symptoms. Started with a slightly scratchy throat at lunchtime and progressed from there. Been alternately dosing myself up on paracetamol and ibuprofen all day and two litres of orange juice to try and knock it on the head. If I'm no better in the morning will be forced to have an interesting conversation with my agency.
		
Click to expand...

Still feeling rough this morning so gave the field office a miss and went out and bought a rapid antigen test which has come back negative. Can't risk going in to the field office and passing this on to anyone else as we will have survey vessels standing by while others get tested, costing the client/contractor thousands per day. Have spoken to my agency who are now booking me in for a PCR test to confirm the rapid test result. I guess I'll be stuck looking at the four walls of my hotel room for a few days while waiting for the result and for symptoms to go. At least I'll be getting paid to surf the internet and watch TV.


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## Beezerk (Jul 9, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Still feeling rough this morning so gave the field office a miss and went out and bought a rapid antigen test which has come back negative. Can't risk going in to the field office and passing this on to anyone else as we will have survey vessels standing by while others get tested, costing the client/contractor thousands per day. Have spoken to my agency who are now booking me in for a PCR test to confirm the rapid test result. I guess I'll be stuck looking at the four walls of my hotel room for a few days while waiting for the result and for symptoms to go. At least I'll be getting paid to surf the internet and watch TV.
		
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Best of luck with it 👍
Mate of mine, a sports coach, has been working from home for the last 18 months. He's a massive football fan, been in the fan zones for every England game. His missus and two kids tested positive the other day, he's tested negative.
Oh and he had a ticket for the final on Sunday 🙉


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## SaintHacker (Jul 9, 2021)

Interesting interview on the radio yesterday with the two ladies who headed the AZ vaccine production. When asked abouy variants she likened it to baking a cake, with the base vaccine being the sponge of the cake, when a new variant emerges she said they just have to redo the icing a bit, thougjt it was a good analogy for those of us not of a scientific background. They are bringing out  a book about their work over the pandemic which I shall look forward to reading.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Interesting interview on the radio yesterday with the two ladies who headed the AZ vaccine production. When asked abouy variants she likened it to baking a cake, with the base vaccine being the sponge of the cake, when a new variant emerges she said they just have to redo the icing a bit, thougjt it was a good analogy for those of us not of a scientific background. They are bringing out  a book about their work over the pandemic which I shall look forward to reading.
		
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Altering the genetic sequence is relatively straightforward for the AZ and mRNA vaccines, and FDA and EMA have both indicated that, like flu vaccines, full trial programmes will not be required for approval. There is a debate going on about the value of boosters with the same sequence as the current vaccines, but boosters with updated sequences which will extend and broaden the immunity seem like a good idea.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Altering the genetic sequence is relatively straightforward for the AZ and mRNA vaccines, and FDA and EMA have both indicated that, like flu vaccines, full trial programmes will not be required for approval. *There is a debate going on about the value of boosters with the same sequence as the current vaccines, but boosters with updated sequences* which will extend and broaden the immunity seem like a good idea.
		
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Or a booster from a different vaccine to the one you were originally given?


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or a booster from a different vaccine to the one you were originally given?
		
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Yes, possibly, depends a bit what you had previously. More benefit for AZ recipients to get Pfizer booster than the converse. Role of new vaccines such as Novavax as yet unclear.


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## Beedee (Jul 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, possibly, depends a bit what you had previously. More benefit for AZ recipients to get Pfizer booster than the converse. Role of new vaccines such as Novavax as yet unclear.
		
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I've a feeling the boosters will be AZ.  We ordered shedloads and can't give it to the under 40s, so if we're mostly boosting the over 50's it'll fit nicely.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why doesn’t he take work outside his sector ? Millions have moved away from their line of work to get jobs in many other areas so that they don’t have to rely on benefits or any other form of government handouts

If your son is unwilling to venture outside his sector as you say then I’m not sure what else is expected. Im guessing he is a grown man but coming on here every day to complain and moan about his circumstances will start to get a bit tiring for everyone - especially when it seems that you want it all to fall into his lap
		
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Look - he and others want to work in their sector as it is their life…their passion. They have jobs but no work - but it will return.  They are going to have to take a risk with the delta variant - and most will.  But we should not have reached this point where the economy and the nation’s finances demand everything is opened up when a variant is rampant and many are not properly protected from it. And we need not have abandoned all measures that reduce transmission in indoor settings.

If it were not for the delta variant then this issue and risk would most probably not be with us - but it is and we know where responsibility lies yet denial is rife and those impacted are told to get over it or go somewhere else.  Yup that’s the compassion and understanding I might expect from some.

He will take a risk; he is desperate to work; we require many like him to take a risk with their health so that we can start to do the things we want to do, the things that economic recovery requires of us.

So please - just accept that there are many 100s of thousands of young people out there who are going to be exposing themselves to a health risk we do not yet understand, and because of that many others will be worried for them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			And yet only 10 days ago, you said "*I would stick with 19th and lift restrictions and requirements. The chaos around schools, events and hospitality is unsustainable and so we might as well just get on with living with the virus. And that is a change from my previous risk-averse thinking. I think the impact of the current risk arising from virus is not worth the mitigations - they are a cost too far for the many individuals and business that have been seriously impacted by the lockdowns and restrictions. *"

Now that it's happened just as you described, you are still unhappy. It's starting to look like you are just a serial moaner that will never be happy, either that or you're just at the wind-up. The industry is being opened up just like you (originally) wanted and "your lad" has the option of taking the work that he has been so desperate for or he doesn't. If he doesn't it may appear that he wasn't _that_ desperate after all.
		
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I will repeat.  We are pleased that the sector can reopen from the 19th and that work is available - but that does not mean we should not be worried for our sons health given the health risk he is exposed to. A risk that could and should have been avoided.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2021)

Beedee said:



			I've a feeling the boosters will be AZ.  We ordered shedloads and can't give it to the under 40s, so if we're mostly boosting the over 50's it'll fit nicely.
		
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We have ordered shedloads of Novavax too, 100m, I think, although it is not yet approved. The Novavax has the advantage that it is a slightly different type of vaccine again, so may offer some of this 'mixing is good' benefit to prior recipients of both AZ and Pfizer.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will repeat.  We are pleased that the sector can reopen from the 19th and that work is available - but that does not mean we should not be worried for our sons health given the health risk he is exposed to. A risk that could and should have been avoided.
		
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Take a step back - yes you are worried for your son , but you don’t need to say it every single day and flood the same thread with the same thing every single day , yes we know that you don’t like the way everything is handled but it’s being repeatative now and a lot of “woe is me”

We would all love to have life normal and to have no risk in life but there is always risk , even if your son gets Covid the risk is very very small , but even then they are now doing walk in vaccines for all ages 

Either way your posts just read as wanting everything to be perfect - they aren’t , you can’t keep going on about your son being on UC when it’s his choice to not look for work elsewhere and to wait for things to be normal 

We are all worried for people during any time , there are a lot of vunerable people out there , if you are that worried you need to say it every day then speak to him or speak to someone to relax your worries


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## GreiginFife (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will repeat.  We are pleased that the sector can reopen from the 19th and that work is available - but that does not mean we should not be worried for our sons health given the health risk he is exposed to. A risk that could and should have been avoided.
		
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It can be avoided, but delaying the opening. 

But with your plan of open up and learn to live with the virus, what could or shoud have been done?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			If you recall the discussion re masks, and why they are no longer going to be legally required, I made the point that it was now having the "lawfully required " part removed to avoid the impractical and chaotic situation that would ensue when gigs etc, like the one you are describing here ,occur and some stirrer demands of the Police why they are not prosecuting those not wearing masks! In this case, hundreds!
*YOU dismissed my point saying the gig organisers would/could make masks a condition of entry!
Now you see the reality.*
The facts are that all who want to be protected by the first dose, can be,- and that is reasonably high protection-plus young people will likely not need hospital.
It has been decided , IMO, therefore that those lesser risks do not justify holding back the recovery of the economy any longer. Hence the present scenario.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like many in the sector have decided that making masks a precondition of entry just won’t work…as from the 19th there are no requirements set out to wear a mask indoors and the likelihood of conflict and aggravation at the door is too high.  What is likely to be required for entry will be a negative LF test.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			It can be avoided, but delaying the opening.

But with your plan of open up and learn to live with the virus, what could or shoud have been done?
		
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where we are today I honestly don’t know.  Mandating masks to be worn indoors might have helped…getting those working in the sector vaccinated as soon as possible given the gap between doses that is required would help.

Most obvious would be delay opening until most under 30s are double-dosed and meanwhile give proper targetted financial support to the venues and those individuals impacted by this delay - support that has not so far been provided.  But that won’t happen given Sunak is cutting furlough payments and pulling the £20/week UC uplift so we know where his focus now sits.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Take a step back - yes you are worried for your son , but you don’t need to say it every single day and flood the same thread with the same thing every single day , yes we know that you don’t like the way everything is handled but it’s being repeatative now and a lot of “woe is me”

We would all love to have life normal and to have no risk in life but there is always risk , even if your son gets Covid the risk is very very small , but even then they are now doing walk in vaccines for all ages

Either way your posts just read as wanting everything to be perfect - they aren’t , you can’t keep going on about your son being on UC when it’s his choice to not look for work elsewhere and to wait for things to be normal

We are all worried for people during any time , there are a lot of vunerable people out there , if you are that worried you need to say it every day then speak to him or speak to someone to relax your worries
		
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I get it. I do. But my words of reassurance that it is how it is and that serious consequences are unlikely are not taken well by my wife.  I can try and explain that the real risk is low, but to my wife such words are hollow given her concerns and worries.  And that is in fact all I am expressing…worry.


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## drdel (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get it. I do. But my words of reassurance that it is how it is and that serious consequences are unlikely are not taken well by my wife.  I can try and explain that the real risk is low, but to my wife such words are hollow given her concerns and worries.  And that is in fact all I am expressing…worry.
		
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You said earlier "... it his is his life and passion...".

The majority of the working population are not in their ideal jobs for all sorts of practical responsibilities. 

If he is causing you and you wife stress I'm tempted to be rude and say that under the circumstances caused by a worldwide pandemic, he is being selfish and needs a lesson in real world responsible living. IMHO.


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## larmen (Jul 9, 2021)

Wouldn’t a potential booster be a slightly altered vaccine rather than left overs? New icing, to pick up on the analogies posted earlier today?


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## GreiginFife (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			where we are today I honestly don’t know.  Mandating masks to be worn indoors might have helped…getting those working in the sector vaccinated as soon as possible given the gap between doses that is required would help.

Most obvious would be delay opening until most under 30s are double-dosed and meanwhile give proper targetted financial support to the venues and those individuals impacted by this delay - support that has not so far been provided.  But that won’t happen given Sunak is cutting furlough payments and pulling the £20/week UC uplift so we know where his focus now sits.
		
Click to expand...

As I suspected, serial moaner. You were clear not but 10 days ago that you would lift restrictions and open up because it's been hard for your widdle boy. Now it's opening up you find a new moan but disguise it as "concern" it always seems to be "concern" and not an _actual_ moan.

Life's been tough for many, I lost my job last year thanks to Covid and had to use my savings (as I was sensible enough to put money aside) as I didn't qualify for either support (as my contactor status precluded me) or UC (because I had savings, which I now don't). But I went and got another job. Was it what I wanted to be doing? No. Not by a stretch, but you know what? But it provided for my family and got me by until I could find work in my preferred industry. 

There's absolutely no point in debating this further with you as it's never going to change your approach or your veiled political digs (but we can't mention that can we?).  But rest assured many of us have been impacted severely by this pandemic but some of us choose to do something about it.


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## Ethan (Jul 9, 2021)

larmen said:



			Wouldn’t a potential booster be a slightly altered vaccine rather than left overs? New icing, to pick up on the analogies posted earlier today?
		
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Same vaccine unless approval is received for a different version, which will need a new identifier, e.g. the current Pfizer is the BNT162b2 vaccine, so the upgrade version which covers Delta or Theta or whatever will have a different name BNT162b3 or BNT174b1 or something. All the vaccine currently in use has to be specifically approved. Likewise the AZ UK version and the SII India versions are identical, although they have different brand names.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get it. I do. But my words of reassurance that it is how it is and that serious consequences are unlikely are not taken well by my wife.  I can try and explain that the real risk is low, but to my wife such words are hollow given her concerns and worries.  And that is in fact all I am expressing…worry.
		
Click to expand...

H, reassure your wife by pointing out the realities that you  see. I.e.
The Pro golfers  who have had Covid, now back playing. Same with footballers, cricketers, rugby etc. 
All the thousands of youngsters not badly affected.All young men, dealt with as  a cold. Not much more than that.
O.k,, so Ethan has pointed out about Long Covid. There is such a thing. But , I suggest, it is a rarity in the full scheme of things. 
His age is on his side. He can wear a good quality mask. He has had the first dose. ( How buoyed were you when you had the first dose.It offers a good level of protection). He isn't as much at risk as nurses etc have been.

All in all, the odds are with him.!


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look - he and others want to work in their sector as it is their life…their passion. They have jobs but no work - but it will return.  They are going to have to take a risk with the delta variant - and most will.  But we should not have reached this point where the economy and the nation’s finances demand everything is opened up when a variant is rampant and many are not properly protected from it. And we need not have abandoned all measures that reduce transmission in indoor settings.

If it were not for the delta variant then this issue and risk would most probably not be with us - but it is and we know where responsibility lies yet denial is rife and those impacted are told to get over it or go somewhere else.  Yup that’s the compassion and understanding I might expect from some.

He will take a risk; he is desperate to work; we require many like him to take a risk with their health so that we can start to do the things we want to do, the things that economic recovery requires of us.

So please - just accept that there are many 100s of thousands of young people out there who are going to be exposing themselves to a health risk we do not yet understand, and because of that many others will be worried for them.
		
Click to expand...

They are choosing to take the risk = their responsibility. Off loading that responsibility onto others to ramp vaccine delivery and financial support is naive. The U.K. has one of the best vaccine deliveries in the world, and the financial package offered to date has been outstanding.

Others have changed career paths whilst your son has continued to suck the (finite) life blood out of the state. I wish him well, and I hope you’re respective worries are unfounded but I have little sympathy for someone who you have bailed out a number of times, and continue to want the state to do even more.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			They are choosing to take the risk = their responsibility. Off loading that responsibility onto others to ramp vaccine delivery and financial support is naive. The U.K. has one of the best vaccine deliveries in the world, and the financial package offered to date has been outstanding.

Others have changed career paths whilst your son has continued to suck the (finite) life blood out of the state. I wish him well, and I hope you’re respective worries are unfounded but I have little sympathy for someone who you have bailed out a number of times, and continue to want the state to do even more.
		
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I agree.  My son in law works in the music industry but had no work so he got himself a job delivering food for Sainsbury's. It unsociable hours but he does to support his family.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 10, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Look - he and others want to work in their sector as it is their life…their passion. They have jobs but no work - but it will return.  They are going to have to take a risk with the delta variant - and most will.  But we should not have reached this point where the economy and the nation’s finances demand everything is opened up when a variant is rampant and many are not properly protected from it. And we need not have abandoned all measures that reduce transmission in indoor settings.

If it were not for the delta variant then this issue and risk would most probably not be with us - *but it is and we know where responsibility lies yet denial is rife* and those impacted are told to get over it or go somewhere else.  Yup that’s the compassion and understanding I might expect from some.

He will take a risk; he is desperate to work; we require many like him to take a risk with their health so that we can start to do the things we want to do, the things that economic recovery requires of us.

So please - just accept that there are many 100s of thousands of young people out there who are going to be exposing themselves to a health risk we do not yet understand, and because of that many others will be worried for them.
		
Click to expand...

So explain to us where responsibilty lies for the Delta variant please? And who is in denial?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 10, 2021)

I've spotted a problem with the government's plan to remove restrictions and trust common sense.......


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## Crazyface (Jul 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree.  My son in law works in the music industry but had no work so he got himself a job delivering food for Sainsbury's. It unsociable hours but he does to support his family.
		
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I worked all the way through the lot. I was made redundant just before this all kicked off. I then signed up with Morrisons home delivery and worked in store where there was no social distancing by the stupid customers, and out delivering, sometimes to people who had covid. I've had sod all from the government, and yes this grates on me big time, as we've had no recognition, monitary wise. Please don't say that I've been able to earn money all the time. Others could have done the same but just grabbed the dosh and took time off. I'm now at Tesco. Working in store, in a damn mask all shift, which is horrendous. So all this rubbish about the young being now exposed to a "varient" whilst not being vaccinated does not get any sympathy from me. suck it up. Wear a mask and wash your hands and take all the precautions I had to whilst working with no vaccination. I still have not had it!!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've spotted a problem with the government's plan to remove restrictions and trust common sense.......







Click to expand...

I know someone who's a Doctor in A&E,  he says you'd never believe what some people get stuck up their bottoms.


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## larmen (Jul 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I know someone who's a Doctor in A&E,  he says you'd never believe what some people get stuck up their bottoms.
		
Click to expand...

There is the Gary Delany joke:
I went to A&E with a hoover nozzle up …
The doctor asked what happened? I was hoovering naked and thought, let’s put the nozzle up my …



For the cream egg story it’s really important to know if they were wrapped or not. And considering that putting 5 m&m one on each other is a record, has Guinness said something about the eggs yet?


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## Hobbit (Jul 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I know someone who's a Doctor in A&E,  he says you'd never believe what some people get stuck up their bottoms.
		
Click to expand...

Whatever you do, don’t do a search on YouTube for (Mod Edit)  Seriously! Armageddon!

mod note, not a GM word, what the hell were you searching for it for? Perv 😂


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## arnieboy (Jul 10, 2021)

Hands up those that just did a Google search!


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## Hobbit (Jul 10, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Whatever you do, don’t do a search on YouTube for (Mod Edit)  Seriously! Armageddon!

mod note, not a GM word, what the hell were you searching for it for? Perv 😂
		
Click to expand...

Sorry vicar


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2021)

Everyone is now sending a pm to @arnieboy asking what the “word”was 😂😂😂


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## fundy (Jul 10, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Everyone is now sending a pm to @arnieboy asking what the “word”was 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...


surely be more fun if we all tried to guess on the thread


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 10, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Everyone is now sending a pm to @arnieboy asking what the “word”was 😂😂😂
		
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I don't know what all the fuss was about. I typed "fetching" into Google just like Hobbit suggested and all I got was a load of videos of dogs chasing sticks.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 10, 2021)

I didn't look - Hobbit said not to so I didn't...now I can't remember the word!


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## larmen (Jul 10, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Everyone is now sending a pm to @arnieboy asking what the “word”was 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Just wondering why it took a mod 40 minutes to change it? Due diligence? Proper research? Has the mod deleted their cookies?

Btw, what was the word?


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## Imurg (Jul 10, 2021)

I cant imagine how they could crowbar "the word" into the magazine without going down some really dark avenues.....


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 10, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Everyone is now sending a pm to @arnieboy asking what the “word”was 😂😂😂
		
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Fragger, would a link be considered inappropriate...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2021)

larmen said:



			Just wondering why it took a mod 40 minutes to change it? Due diligence? Proper research? Has the mod deleted their cookies?

Btw, what was the word?
		
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Not telling
Our sweary wordy filter only has sweary words in it, obscure perversions require either someone to report it or for a mod to stumble across it and deal with it manually

Hence the time lag 👍


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## fundy (Jul 10, 2021)

Made me chuckle after the earlier comments


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413919223408218115


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## SaintHacker (Jul 10, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Not telling
Our sweary wordy filter only has sweary words in it, obscure perversions require either someone to report it or for a mod to stumble across it and deal with it manually

Hence the time lag 👍
		
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What you really mean is it took you that long to delete your search history after you had to google its meaning!😂😂


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 10, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			What you really mean is it took you that long to delete your search history after you had to google its meaning!😂😂
		
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Aha no young padawan, for your Fragger is worldly wise and whilst (thankfully) lacking personal experience of the subject, knows what it involves, largely due to @Imurgs little black book of unspeakable things 👍


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2021)

larmen said:



			There is the Gary Delany joke:
I went to A&E with a hoover nozzle up …
The doctor asked what happened? I was hoovering naked and thought, let’s put the nozzle up my …



For the cream egg story it’s really important to know if they were wrapped or not. And considering that putting 5 m&m one on each other is a record, has Guinness said something about the eggs yet?
		
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Whatever story you have heard about something disappearing where the sun don't shine, trust me, any A&E dept can better it in a heartbeat, and will have a few souvenir X-rays to illustrate the tale. Hoover nozzle up the bum? Mmm, must be a Tuesday. Fell on it in the shower, sir. Yeah, happens a lot. 

Much weirder stuff has gone into other places, and in some cases, posed considerably greater removal challenges. Pro tip: things with barbs on them may go in easily, but they come out with a lot more grief.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Whatever story you have heard about something disappearing where the sun don't shine, trust me, any A&E dept can better it in a heartbeat, and will have a few souvenir X-rays to illustrate the tale. Hoover nozzle up the bum? Mmm, must be a Tuesday. Fell on it in the shower, sir. Yeah, happens a lot.

Much weirder stuff has gone into other places, and in some cases, posed considerably greater removal challenges. *Pro tip: things with barbs on them may go in easily, but they come out with a lot more grief.*

Click to expand...

Is that a tip from your work or your personal life?


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is that a tip from your work or your personal life? 

Click to expand...

Ha. Professional. A twig from a plant inserted up the urethra. Reason unknown. Turned put to have scales which are smooth in one direction, not smooth at all in the other. Went in fairly easily, came out leaving amid much anguish, calls for his mother (although ironically didn't want family to know), leaving bitter regrets and a lengthy recovery period of painful and bloody wee-ing, with possible permanent damage.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2021)

Maybe we need to get this thread back on track, something about this corona virus thingy 🦠


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Maybe we need to get this thread back on track, something about this corona virus thingy 🦠
		
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Thy recent posts, check you should.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Thy recent posts, check you should.
		
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Guilty as charged, along with others, just steering it back, it’s what we mods do 👍


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## Fade and Die (Jul 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Whatever story you have heard about something disappearing where the sun don't shine, trust me, any A&E dept can better it in a heartbeat, and will have a few souvenir X-rays to illustrate the tale. Hoover nozzle up the bum? Mmm, must be a Tuesday. Fell on it in the shower, sir. Yeah, happens a lot. 

Much weirder stuff has gone into other places, and in some cases, posed considerably greater removal challenges. Pro tip: things with barbs on them may go in easily, but they come out with a lot more grief.
		
Click to expand...


Book I am reading “ this is going to hurt, diaries of a junior Dr”  The guy is OB/GYN and some of the stories are both hilarious and mind boggling. In his early days he sometimes gave the patient the benefit of the doubt until he retrieved a TV remote control with a condom on it!!


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## Fade and Die (Jul 11, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guilty as charged, along with others, just steering it back, it’s what we mods do 👍
		
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Oops sorry, posted mine just after I saw your prompt.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 11, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Oops sorry, posted mine just after I saw your prompt.
		
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It’s ok, you just saved yourself from the red hot poker treatment 🤭

Right Covid stuff now please 👍


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Whatever story you have heard about something disappearing where the sun don't shine, trust me, any A&E dept can better it in a heartbeat, and will have a few souvenir X-rays to illustrate the tale. Hoover nozzle up the bum? Mmm, must be a Tuesday. Fell on it in the shower, sir. Yeah, happens a lot. 

Much weirder stuff has gone into other places, and in some cases, posed considerably greater removal challenges. Pro tip: things with barbs on them may go in easily, but they come out with a lot more grief.
		
Click to expand...

Some people make me laugh, some make me cry.
But you have just found another way to make my eyes water!😳


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## SaintHacker (Jul 11, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Book I am reading “ this is going to hurt, diaries of a junior Dr”  The guy is OB/GYN and some of the stories are both hilarious and mind boggling. In his early days he sometimes gave the patient the benefit of the doubt until he retrieved a TV remote control with a condom on it!!
		
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Ive read that, its funny right until the end, then you might find you have something in your eye, i did

Anyway back to the covid, the vaccine minister said this mornijg they will hit the target of 66% of adults double jabbed before the target date of july 19th. So although they haven't said it is this the figure required for herd immunity to start taking effect?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2021)

Last couple of days been suffering badly with hay fever - badly stuffed up and it’s also given me a sore throat , didnt think much of it until last night the wife said it was the prime symptoms of the new delta virus ! Apparently it’s one of 20 symptoms !! But they have 5 prime ones. So this morning started taking the Covid tests 😫


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## fundy (Jul 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Last couple of days been suffering badly with hay fever - badly stuffed up and it’s also given me a sore throat , didnt think much of it until last night the wife said it was the prime symptoms of the new delta virus ! Apparently it’s one of 20 symptoms !! But they have 5 prime ones. So this morning started taking the Covid tests 😫
		
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As someone else whos suffering badly with hayfever I feel for you, worse than most years (especially this past week or so) but Im used to suffering so not overly concerned its not hayfever. Do you get hayfever normally?

As a confirmed cynic, is it not rather convenient that the version we had in winters main symptoms were similar to those of flu, yet in summer the new versions main symptoms are similar to hayfever. How does that work? anyone quieten my cynicism?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 11, 2021)

fundy said:



			As someone else whos suffering badly with hayfever I feel for you, worse than most years (especially this past week or so) but Im used to suffering so not overly concerned its not hayfever. Do you get hayfever normally?

As a confirmed cynic, is it not rather convenient that the version we had in winters main symptoms were similar to those of flu, yet in summer the new versions main symptoms are similar to hayfever. How does that work? anyone quieten my cynicism?
		
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You are right to be cynical. Its all just a big plot by Bill Gates and the Illuminati (or Pinky and The Brain) to  take over the world. Woohahahaha


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Book I am reading “ this is going to hurt, diaries of a junior Dr”  The guy is OB/GYN and some of the stories are both hilarious and mind boggling. In his early days he sometimes gave the patient the benefit of the doubt until he retrieved a TV remote control with a condom on it!!
		
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I have read it. I understand that some of the stories have been "borrowed" by Adam Kay but all are true. Nothing he said rings as being bogus, though. I spent some time working in the maternity hospital and it can be a weird place. Other junior doctor stories such as Cardiac Arrest, written by the now famous Jed Mercurio, also generally ring true.


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## Whereditgo (Jul 11, 2021)

I tested positive last Sunday, had most of the classic symptoms except taste and smell were fine, felt pretty grotty all week so pretty much survived on snacks and paracetamol. Started to feel a little better yesterday, so made myself my first proper meal in a week, yep! - smell and taste have now cleared off!


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t normally suffer badly but the last couple of days has been awful - I just double dosed the hay fever tablets and didnt think anything more until the wife mentioned the “change in symptoms”

Was speaking to a doctor this morning at the club who mentioned that he is a bit cynical about the variants having different symptoms and being inline with seasonal colds etc. Thankfully the pollen count is due to drop over the next week
		
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It is perfectly plausible that different variants have different symptoms, that could relate to the areas where they initially cause irritation, e.g. upper nasopharynx for one variant, lungs for another, and that could be affected by how well they stick.

But I think we are seeing a bit of that and a bit of recognition that the symptom picture always was a bit wider than initially thought coinciding. Problem is that some of the more recently identified features are much less specific and therefore more liable to false positives.


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## Old Skier (Jul 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t normally suffer badly but the last couple of days has been awful - I just double dosed the hay fever tablets and didnt think anything more until the wife mentioned the “change in symptoms”

Was speaking to a doctor this morning at the club who mentioned that he is a bit cynical about the variants having different symptoms and being inline with seasonal colds etc. Thankfully the pollen count is due to drop over the next week
		
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Hopefully after your test was negative


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2021)

https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/the-20-symptoms-of-covid-19-to-watch-out-for

just the 21 symptoms of Covid - might as well just say that anytime someone feels ill then it can be Covid. Every single symptom for the standard cold , flu , hayfever is also a symptom of Covid


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/the-20-symptoms-of-covid-19-to-watch-out-for

just the 21 symptoms of Covid - might as well just say that anytime someone feels ill then it can be Covid. Every single symptom for the standard cold , flu , hayfever is also a symptom of Covid
		
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Many non-specific and common symptoms will increase testing, much more of which is then unnecessary, but that is fine for creating a big number of tests, and that looks like something useful is being done, even if it really isn't. Helps mop up some of the gazillion tests bought.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is perfectly plausible that different variants have different symptoms, that could relate to the areas where they initially cause irritation, e.g. upper nasopharynx for one variant, lungs for another, and that could be affected by how well they stick.

But I think we are seeing a bit of that and a bit of recognition that the symptom picture always was a bit wider than initially thought coinciding. Problem is that some of the more recently identified features are much less specific and therefore more liable to false positives.
		
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RE: your second paragraph. Do you mean false positives in terms of people thinking that they might have it or false positives in terms of test results?


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## AmandaJR (Jul 11, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			I tested positive last Sunday, had most of the classic symptoms except taste and smell were fine, felt pretty grotty all week so pretty much survived on snacks and paracetamol. Started to feel a little better yesterday, so made myself my first proper meal in a week, yep! - smell and taste have now cleared off!
		
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Same happened to me. I suddenly really really fancied some bread and butter with Marmite. Took a bite...weird...no Marmite taste. So spread it so thick the bread was black and still zero taste - just tingly lips! Only upside was David was quite poorly and he's chief dog poop picker upper - fortunately I couldn't smell that!


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 11, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Book I am reading “ this is going to hurt, diaries of a junior Dr”  The guy is OB/GYN and some of the stories are both hilarious and mind boggling. In his early days he sometimes gave the patient the benefit of the doubt until he retrieved a TV remote control with a condom on it!!
		
Click to expand...

That book is utterly hilarious, my personal favourite being the old lady with the Jack Daniels (no, that does not involve inserting the bottle into an orifice ill-designed for it).

Edit; should also add that it is distressing, depressing & will make you angry at various parts, but I would still thoroughly recommend reading it.  We've also seen him doing a live show on it & 'twas good.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			RE: your second paragraph. Do you mean false positives in terms of people thinking that they might have it or false positives in terms of test results?
		
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Good question. I really meant the first. It will result in some more false positive tests overall just as a consequence of more tests, but the proportion should not change.


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## Slime (Jul 11, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Same happened to me. I suddenly really really fancied some bread and butter with Marmite. *Took a bite...weird...no Marmite taste.* So spread it so thick the bread was black and still zero taste - just tingly lips! Only upside was David was quite poorly and he's chief dog poop picker upper - fortunately I couldn't smell that!
		
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That sounds like a win to me!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2021)

The 19th - to mask or not to mask - that is the question.

We thought we had the answer on the 5th.  Apparently there may be a slightly different answer later today.

Take personal responsibility over it? Well last night many of the English public demonstrated what can happen when you leave things to personal choice and caution.  Unfortunately much was all a bit of an uncautious mess. 

Anyway - let‘s see what’s in store for us from the 19th because I am not sure I know.


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## Ethan (Jul 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The 19th - to mask or not to mask - that is the question.

We thought we had the answer on the 5th.  Apparently there may be a slightly different answer later today.

Take personal responsibility over it? Well last night many of the English public demonstrated what can happen when you leave things to personal choice and caution.  Unfortunately much was all a bit of an uncautious mess.

Anyway - let‘s see what’s in store for us from the 19th because I am not sure I know.
		
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It is ridiculous to say that people are "expected" to continue to wear masks, but it is no longer required. Personal responsibility just doesn't work, and we didn't need the England "fans" to show us that. 

I was out in Reading yesterday and there was a notable reduction is mask wearing inside a shopping mall compared to a couple of weeks ago.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 12, 2021)

If the mask wearing requirement is removed then I won't wear one. It's pretty straight forward.
I'd imagine a lot will think the same.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			If the mask wearing requirement is removed then I won't wear one. It's pretty straight forward.
I'd imagine a lot will think the same.
		
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Not even on public transport or in crowded places


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## BiMGuy (Jul 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Not even on public transport or in crowded places
		
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I've no intention of wearing a face covering anywhere. I don't use public transport so that's not a problem. I very rarely go to crowded places and will be happy to steer clear of then for a while longer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			If the mask wearing requirement is removed then I won't wear one. It's pretty straight forward.
I'd imagine a lot will think the same.
		
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Even when you are advised by government that there are circumstances when you _should_ wear one?  

It‘s beginning to look a lot like Christmas…


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## Ethan (Jul 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			If the mask wearing requirement is removed then I won't wear one. It's pretty straight forward.
I'd imagine a lot will think the same.
		
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I imagine you are right. Pity there are so many with a simplistic and selfish view of the world. Hope you at least have had least the sense to get vaccinated.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I imagine you are right. Pity there are so many with a simplistic and selfish view of the world. Hope you at least have had least the sense to get vaccinated.
		
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Back to your usual condescending self I see (but tbf you're never not). If you have an issue with mask requirements then I suggest you write to your local MP.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Even when you are advised by government that there are circumstances when you _should_ wear one? 

It‘s beginning to look a lot like Christmas…
		
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Yes, I have no intentions of wearing a mask ever again if  don't have to. 
Like I said it's pretty easy to understand. 

But If Boris does an about turn and makes them mandatory in some situatuons then i'll obey.


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## Ethan (Jul 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Back to your usual condescending self I see (but tbf you're never not). If you have an issue with mask requirements then I suggest you write to your local MP.
		
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So says the ignoramus who declares he just won't wear a mask. I'd be worried if you agreed with me on anything.


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## RichA (Jul 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Back to your usual condescending self I see (but tbf you're never not). If you have an issue with mask requirements then I suggest you write to your local MP.
		
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Try to think of face masks like condoms. Even if there's no law requiring you to wear one, there might be occasions when it's the socially responsible thing to do.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 12, 2021)

RichA said:



			Try to think of face masks like condoms. Even if there's no law requiring you to wear one, there might be occasions when it's the socially responsible thing to do.
		
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Do I have to wear a condom in the golf club bar?


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## BiMGuy (Jul 12, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Do I have to wear a condom in the golf club bar?

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Only if it's knee length 😁


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## bobmac (Jul 12, 2021)

I have been vaccinated twice, the second was mid May. 
Can I still catch Covid  and pass it on to someone who hasn't been vaccinated?
Thanks


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## Kellfire (Jul 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I have been vaccinated twice, the second was mid May.
Can I still catch Covid  and pass it on to someone who hasn't been vaccinated?
Thanks
		
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Yes.


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## bobmac (Jul 12, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Yes.
		
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You could never be a politician


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## Kellfire (Jul 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You could never be a politician 

Click to expand...

I don’t think that was ever in doubt.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 12, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I don’t think that was ever in doubt.
		
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You could be lying though.


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## Ethan (Jul 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I have been vaccinated twice, the second was mid May.
Can I still catch Covid  and pass it on to someone who hasn't been vaccinated?
Thanks
		
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Yes, but you are a lot less likely to do so than before you were vaccinated. Not everybody responds fully to the vaccine - we know some people still get Covid, therefore they have clearly been infected, but even then their illness is generally less severe, so the "dose" of virus was probably reduced a bit by the vax. The majority of vaccinated who will don't Covid after vax are quite unlikely to be capable of transmission. 

If the unvaccinated person has a medical reason for not being vac'd, then they should still socially distance and wear masks etc. If they are simply someone who thinks it is the flu or that God will protect them, good luck to them, not your problem.


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## road2ruin (Jul 12, 2021)

We've had a good run, avoided all isolations but we finally got the disappointing although not entirely surprising email that a positive case in our daughters class means that they've all been sent home for 10 days. I feel for her as this was the last days of her term and the school and planned a load of activities for them and instead she's sat inside and after only 1 day she's climbing the walls!!

I am also watching the test results closely as I am all booked in to my trip to The Open later this week and a positive test in our household would put that to bed!!


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## Whereditgo (Jul 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We've had a good run, avoided all isolations but we finally got the disappointing although not entirely surprising email that a positive case in our daughters class means that they've all been sent home for 10 days. I feel for her as this was the last days of her term and the school and planned a load of activities for them and instead she's sat inside and after only 1 day she's climbing the walls!!

I am also watching the test results closely as I am all booked in to my trip to The Open later this week and a positive test in our household would put that to bed!!
		
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My partners lad has had to self isolate on 3 different occasions owing to the same issue at school, once it was one of his closer friends too, but he hasn't developed any symptoms at any time, I tested positive last Sunday and neither my partner nor the lad have developed symptoms this time either - so hopefully you will be fine!


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We've had a good run, avoided all isolations but we finally got the disappointing although not entirely surprising email that a positive case in our daughters class means that they've all been sent home for 10 days. I feel for her as this was the last days of her term and the school and planned a load of activities for them and instead she's sat inside and after only 1 day she's climbing the walls!!

I am also watching the test results closely as I am all booked in to my trip to The Open later this week and a positive test in our household would put that to bed!!
		
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Got the same in our house. One of the teachers from my younger boy's class has tested positive and the class are now all supposed to isolate at home. Despite the fact that my boy was off school all of last week with a cough (2 negative LFTs and a negative PCR but they still wouldn't let him go to school with a cough) and has had no contact with the teacher for 10 days he has still been told to stay at home as he can't go into school and join another bubble. It's meant to be his last week of school but he doesn't seem too bothered about it. 

It's the kids in year 6 that are also having to isolate that I feel most sorry for. It's their last week at primary school and they were meant to be on a residential trip for 3 days this week which has had to be cancelled.


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## Foxholer (Jul 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Only if it's knee length 😁
		
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Thats a very small bar!


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## funkycoldmedina (Jul 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We've had a good run, avoided all isolations but we finally got the disappointing although not entirely surprising email that a positive case in our daughters class means that they've all been sent home for 10 days. I feel for her as this was the last days of her term and the school and planned a load of activities for them and instead she's sat inside and after only 1 day she's climbing the walls!!

I am also watching the test results closely as I am all booked in to my trip to The Open later this week and a positive test in our household would put that to bed!!
		
Click to expand...

Same for us. Daughters nursery got a positive so she's on the self isolate list. First half of holiday gone for her and me. Neg PCR's for us all. Nothing for 18 months and then 5 days before first hold in 2 years a ping. 
Watching the fan zones at the footy our isolation feels futile but it's the right thing to do.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Yes, I have no intentions of wearing a mask ever again if  don't have to. 
Like I said it's pretty easy to understand. 

But If Boris does an about turn and makes them mandatory in some situatuons then i'll obey.
		
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What a wonderful sense of logic and concern you have🙄


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 12, 2021)

I could've sworn we were meant to be following the data not the dates. A week before we are due to drop all restrictions and the number of patients in hospital has gone up by 48% in a week to almost 2800. I can't be the only one thinking that perhaps keeping face masks as mandatory on public transport and in shops would have been a better call than relying on people's common sense.

Pretty much all restrictions were lifted in the Netherlands, except for face masks on public transport, and still their infection rate has increased 8 fold in a week and has led to some restrictions being put back in place. Fortunately there hasn't been a sharp rise in hospitalisations yet but will be interesting to see how that number changes over the week to 10 days.


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2021)

A number of provinces here are reimposing various restrictions. For example, Valencia has reimposed curfews and a number of municipal lockdowns. Various businesses are to close early, and the numbers allowed in greatly reduced.

Why has the number of infections gone up? Schools and universities here closed 3 weeks ago for the summer, and holidaymakers are very much in evidence. And masks are only compulsory when entering bars, restaurants and shops.


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## larmen (Jul 12, 2021)

I think I will go with the majority. If I go into a supermarket and none is wearing a mask I am not going to be the only one wearing one. If they insist on mask I am happy to put one in. I just look into the situation and do what feels right.

Wearing a mask is the new smart casual pitfall, but at least I can always carry one with me.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 12, 2021)

I do find it laughable we are opening up just as the Netherlands pm apologised to the nation for opening up too early


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Yes, I have no intentions of wearing a mask ever again if  don't have to.
Like I said it's pretty easy to understand.

But If Boris does an about turn and makes them mandatory in some situatuons then i'll obey.
		
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He doesn’t have to do an about turn.  He is pointing as clearly as he will to the direction he wants you to go in certain specific circumstances - saying ‘please go that road‘ rather than ‘you must go that road‘.  You are choosing to ignore that plea and head in the opposite direction to that in which he is pointing you.  You seem unwilling to follow his guidance and directions. Why?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He doesn’t have to do an about turn.  He is pointing as clearly as he will to the direction he wants you to go in certain specific circumstances - saying ‘please go that road‘ rather than ‘you must go that road‘.  You are choosing to ignore that plea and head in the opposite direction to that in which he is pointing you.  You seem unwilling to follow his guidance and directions. Why?
		
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It's a clear case of shifting the blame from state to the public .. however I can't say I blame them anymore ..

The guidelines have been law and even then not everyone follows it.. what's the point of them carrying the can for Mr YouTube knowledge knowing better than the advise 

Least this way if it goes wrong they can be like well we tried to warn you now will you behave you idiots. You have had your freedom day.. now you proved you can't be trusted so mayb listen.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It's a clear case of shifting the blame from state to the public .. however I can't say I blame them anymore ..

The guidelines have been law and even then not everyone follows it.. what's the point of them carrying the can for Mr YouTube knowledge knowing better than the advise

Least this way if it goes wrong they can be like well we tried to warn you now will you behave you idiots. You have had your freedom day.. now you proved you can't be trusted so mayb listen.
		
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Hmmm…is not one duty of government to put in place measures to protect the public from itself…from it‘s (the public’s) own stupidity and overly risky decision making?  Because in many scenarios of life only government measures can protect us from the stupidity and recklessness of others?  And as both the PM and Health Sec said today … we are still in a pandemic.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm…is not one duty of government to put in place measures to protect the public from itself…from it‘s (the public’s) own stupidity and overly risky decision making?  Because in many scenarios of life only government measures can protect me from the stupidity and recklessness of others?
		
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Have for over a year yet people still do what they want


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Have for over a year yet people still do what they want
		
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Some here will adhere to mandated requirements but will otherwise disregard guidance - so clearly some mandates have benefit.  And yes - some, but not that many, have just done what they want.  Most of us have stuck pretty diligently to what has been mandated of us.


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## HowlingGale (Jul 13, 2021)

Came on holiday to Somerset on Saturday. Got a call from the kids holiday club yesterday saying that someone in their bubble has tested positive on the Friday. Yes, the day before we left. Not sure why we weren't told before we went. We now need to isolate in the holiday house for 10 days. Awaiting the results of their tests.

Nightmare.


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## D-S (Jul 13, 2021)

Interesting to see Macron ramping up pressure on those who haven’t chosen to be vaccinated. Barring access to trains, shopping centres and restaurants to those who do not have a COVID passport. His aim is to ‘place the weight of restrictions on those who have chosen not to have the vaccine, rather than everyone’.
Seems tough but fair now that we are getting to the point that everyone has had the opportunity.


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2021)

D-S said:



			Interesting to see Macron ramping up pressure on those who haven’t chosen to be vaccinated. Barring access to trains, shopping centres and restaurants to those who do not have a COVID passport. His aim is to ‘place the weight of restrictions on those who have chosen not to have the vaccine, rather than everyone’.
Seems tough but fair now that we are getting to the point that everyone has had the opportunity.
		
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I wish everyone has had the opportunity. Because we’re below retirement age, 62 & 61, we can’t join the Spanish Healthcare System, relying on private healthcare. But private healthcare companies aren’t allowed to buy the vaccine.

After months of arguing the govt realised they had a large tranche of people that weren’t being vaccinated and offered temporary registration. After 3 months and 5 health centres we’ve finally found a HC that would accept us. That was a month ago. Swapped several emails with the Andalucian Health Board. Response just received… no you can’t be vaccinated.

With France shutting the door to unvaccinated travellers our trip back to the U.K. to see children and g’children is likely to be cancelled. I agree with vaccine passports and restrictions but it’s a bit harsh on those that have been trying, and trying, and trying to get vaccinated but can’t access it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 13, 2021)

Daughter Ill now 😫

PCR test booked for her - horrid at her age


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## Rooter (Jul 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Daughter Ill now 😫

PCR test booked for her - horrid at her age
		
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My mate wife is a nursery nurse, its ripped through their nursery.


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## Mudball (Jul 13, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I wish everyone has had the opportunity. Because we’re below retirement age, 62 & 61, we can’t join the Spanish Healthcare System, relying on private healthcare. But private healthcare companies aren’t allowed to buy the vaccine.

After months of arguing the govt realised they had a large tranche of people that weren’t being vaccinated and offered temporary registration. After 3 months and 5 health centres we’ve finally found a HC that would accept us. That was a month ago. Swapped several emails with the Andalucian Health Board. Response just received… no you can’t be vaccinated.

With France shutting the door to unvaccinated travellers our trip back to the U.K. to see children and g’children is likely to be cancelled. I agree with vaccine passports and restrictions but it’s a bit harsh on those that have been trying, and trying, and trying to get vaccinated but can’t access it.
		
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I dont know the process, and so apologies for dumb question.  Assuming you still have your Brit passport, can you not fly back directly to UK, and get your jabs? Are these healthcare registration restrictions brexit related?


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## Mudball (Jul 13, 2021)

Speaking to someone who is involved in the tourist/staycation biz...   Her first world problem is such

1) Those who normally go overseas, are choosing to stay in the UK.  So demand is up
2) They are changing hands at pretty good rates.  This means people who normally stay in the UK are now priced out of these holiday parks
3) As they are ready to pay a higher price, they demand a higher level of service.  
4) Unfortunately, they cant get staff. Not just europeans but also college kids who would do summer jobs are not coming into the industry.  They have increased rates + bonus, but cant find staff. 

all the water, but no way to drink it..


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2021)

Mudball said:



			I dont know the process, and so apologies for dumb question.  Assuming you still have your Brit passport, can you not fly back directly to UK, and get your jabs? Are these healthcare registration restrictions brexit related?
		
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Not Brexit related, age related. I don’t live in the U.K., hence not entitled to access the NHS, unless it’s an emergency.


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## Mudball (Jul 13, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Not Brexit related, age related. I don’t live in the U.K., hence not entitled to access the NHS, unless it’s an emergency.
		
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I see.. in my mind, i thought Spain had a lot of Brit pensioners who have access to local state healthcare.  maybe i misunderstood


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2021)

Mudball said:



			I see.. in my mind, i thought Spain had a lot of Brit pensioners who have access to local state healthcare.  maybe i misunderstood
		
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If you are of pensionable age, it’s free providing you had Residencia before Dec 31st 2020. We will qualify when we reach 65. Any Brit pensioner coming out now won’t get it(Brexit). We fall into no man’s land. Can’t access it here and don’t qualify in the U.K., and must have private healthcare to qualify for Residencia.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 13, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			If you are of pensionable age, it’s free providing you had Residencia before Dec 31st 2020. We will qualify when we reach 65. Any Brit pensioner coming out now won’t get it(Brexit). We fall into no man’s land. Can’t access it here and don’t qualify in the U.K., and must have private healthcare to qualify for Residencia.
		
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Seems ridiculously short sighted. Surely they should be looking to jab everyone? The outcry in the media if this happened in the UK would be huge.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jul 13, 2021)

One my golfing mates has tested positive.

That's what happens when you go to the pub and get pished watching the match


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## Voyager EMH (Jul 13, 2021)

Just received an email inviting me to the Seniors Section AGM on Monday 19th, 2pm in the bar.
Attached was an agenda.
No mention of masks, social distancing or other precautions.


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## williamalex1 (Jul 13, 2021)

A bit worried after hearing a mate's neighbour died from Covid despite having had the 2 jabs.
But he did have serious underlying health problems .


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## SaintHacker (Jul 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Daughter Ill now 😫

PCR test booked for her - horrid at her age
		
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Fingers crossed she's OK


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## road2ruin (Jul 13, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Fingers crossed she's OK
		
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We've been fortunate that we've not had to go through the PCR test, from those with kids who are around our daughters age who've tested positive the testing was far worse than the virus (for the kids that is)!!


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Seems ridiculously short sighted. Surely they should be looking to jab everyone? The outcry in the media if this happened in the UK would be huge.
		
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We can register for a temporary (state) card purely to access the Covid jab, which we have done. That option didn’t exist till early this year. It took weeks and weeks to find a health centre that would accept our details. Those details, finally, went in weeks ago. As the registration is handled by the regional board, Covid team, I emailed them yesterday, swapped a few emails. They won’t allow me to book an appointment nor go to one of the drop-ins without the temp card. And they don’t know when the card will be issued.


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We can register for a temporary (state) card purely to access the Covid jab, which we have done. That option didn’t exist till early this year. It took weeks and weeks to find a health centre that would accept our details. Those details, finally, went in weeks ago. As the registration is handled by the regional board, Covid team, I emailed them yesterday, swapped a few emails. They won’t allow me to book an appointment nor go to one of the drop-ins without the temp card. And they don’t know when the card will be issued.
		
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Sounds just like immigrants to the UK and the NHS.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Sounds just like immigrants to the UK and the NHS.
		
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I believe immigrants to the UK are vaccinated.
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-02-08...given-covid-vaccines-without-checks-on-status


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## Ethan (Jul 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe immigrants to the UK are vaccinated.
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-02-08...given-covid-vaccines-without-checks-on-status

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I stand corrected. Immigrants do have to pay an immigration surcharge to get NHS care and registering with a GP can be a problem.

So, can yer man not just drop in for a shot next time back in the UK?


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## Hobbit (Jul 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe immigrants to the UK are vaccinated.
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-02-08...given-covid-vaccines-without-checks-on-status

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Immigrants here can only access the Health Service if they are working or of pensionable age. Every other immigrant must, by law, have private cover, which we have.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 13, 2021)

What I am just not getting is how lifting all constraints and requirements on our behaviour in respect of minimising transmission between individuals on the 19th can be described _in any way_ as a cautious approach.  What’s left to minimise or at least constrain transmission of the virus between individuals - because I can’t see that there is anything whatsoever.

It seems to me that far from a cautious lifting of requirements what is being done will give the virus free rein to spread as it will - with the only limiting factor being nothing to do with our behaviours but on the efficacy of the vaccine.  But I guess if we are told it’s cautious enough times enough of us will believe that it is.  Maybe it is, but I just don’t get it.


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## road2ruin (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What I am just not getting is how lifting all constraints and requirements on our behaviour in respect of minimising transmission between individuals on the 19th can be described _in any way_ as a cautious approach.  What’s left to minimise or at least constrain transmission of the virus between individuals - because I can’t see that there is anything whatsoever.

It seems to me that far from a cautious lifting of requirements what is being done will give the virus free rein to spread as it will - with the only limiting factor being nothing to do with our behaviours but on the efficacy of the vaccine.  But I guess if we are told it’s cautious enough times enough of us will believe that it is.  Maybe it is, but I just don’t get it.
		
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On the flip side it could be viewed as the perfect time to get it done as the schools/colleges finish next week for all those that are left in which must help mitigate the effects of full opening. Remember last summer, we had few restrictions and the virus all but disappeared, granted we have the Delta variant now although we also have the vaccines. I think the fear is that there is always going to be an 'exit wave' and when is the best time to have it, now when the schools are closed and a lot of socialising is done outside or in September when education reopens and we're a few weeks away from cramming back indoors watching it pour down?

My major gripe is that masks are now the new Brexit, it's going to divide the country yet again as people are being told that they're not legally having to wear them however it is also 'expected' of them. Well that's not really going to help. Saw that TfL are making them mandatory on all of their public transport which at least ensures people know what they have to do and not being left to their own devices.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			On the flip side it could be viewed as the perfect time to get it done as the schools/colleges finish next week for all those that are left in which must help mitigate the effects of full opening. Remember last summer, we had few restrictions and the virus all but disappeared, granted we have the Delta variant now although we also have the vaccines. I think the fear is that there is always going to be an 'exit wave' and when is the best time to have it, now when the schools are closed and a lot of socialising is done outside or in September when education reopens and we're a few weeks away from cramming back indoors watching it pour down?

My major gripe is that masks are now the new Brexit, it's going to divide the country yet again as people are being told that they're not legally having to wear them however it is also 'expected' of them. Well that's not really going to help. Saw that TfL are making them mandatory on all of their public transport which at least ensures people know what they have to do and not being left to their own devices.
		
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Get all that…but what is it about how we will be able to ‘behave‘ as we go about life, work and leisure that in any way counts towards a cautious approach to relaxing measures - when every measure is being lifted.  We are continually being told this is cautious - but it just isn’t. Are we in a way just being subject to a bit of gaslighting? 

btw I make no comment on the right or wrong of this as it is difficult, I am just asking about how it is being portrayed, as being told and coming to believe in it being a cautious approach then were things to go wrong we can only blame ourselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Open everything, but with two relatively non-intrusive requirements on us - when indoor or in tight crowds wear a mask and when outside try a keep distancing.*  And if an indoor venue chooses to require a negative test of you then just accept that with grace given that that is their prerogative and if they then choose to allow masks to not be worn. I don’t know about you but I don’t live my life in a ‘me-bubble’.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Get all that…but what is it about how we will be able to ‘behave‘ as we go about life, work and leisure that in any way counts towards a cautious approach to relaxing measures - when every measure is being lifted.  We are continually being told this is cautious - but it just isn’t. Are we in a way just being subject to a bit of gaslighting?

btw I make no comment on the right or wrong of this as it is difficult, I am just asking about how it is being portrayed, as being told and coming to believe in it being a cautious approach then were things to go wrong we can only blame ourselves.
		
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Isn’t what the Government have done exactly what you suggested?

Time for people to take some responsibility.

Personally I’ll continue to wear a mask in shops/indoors etc as I have 2 vulnerable people at home.

I won’t be changing anything from what I do now!


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## bobmac (Jul 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Isn’t what the Government have done exactly what you suggested?
		
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I think what SWLH is saying is politicians have said ''lifting all restrictions in 5 days is a cautious approach''. I guess he thinks that the politicians are wrong and it's not cautious.
Btw, I'm only repeating what I think Hogie said so not political


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## drdel (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Get all that…but what is it about how we will be able to ‘behave‘ as we go about life, work and leisure that in any way counts towards a cautious approach to relaxing measures - when every measure is being lifted.  We are continually being told this is cautious - but it just isn’t. Are we in a way just being subject to a bit of gaslighting?

btw I make no comment on the right or wrong of this as it is difficult, I am just asking about how it is being portrayed, as being told and coming to believe in it being a cautious approach then were things to go wrong we can only blame ourselves.
		
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Glad to see you're not getting political in you last few posts- or perhaps you are!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Get all that…but what is it about how we will be able to ‘behave‘ as we go about life, work and leisure that in any way counts towards a cautious approach to relaxing measures - when every measure is being lifted.  We are continually being told this is cautious - but it just isn’t. Are we in a way just being subject to a bit of gaslighting? 

btw I make no comment on the right or wrong of this as it is difficult, I am just asking about how it is being portrayed, as being told and coming to believe in it being a cautious approach then were things to go wrong we can only blame ourselves.
		
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Which way do you want it? Do you want the economy to open up? Do you want the entertainment business to get back to normal?
You have said you do previously -your son having good reason for this!
If so, do you reject the reasoning that  it will be impractical and unfair on Law enforcement authorities to try to enforce a law which will be broken en masse. Which will be impossible to enforce. 
Cinemas, theatres and nightclubs would be full of people most of whom would not wear masks. They would be subject to prosecution etc by the police.
The venues would be trying to operate,  with Police going in and dealing with the unlawful. 😳 Can you imagine that - ridiculous!
Or,if they don't go in ,  the farcical situation of the media and others demanding (for whatever reason) that the Police do go in and "do their duty"
But it won't be like that, you say.
Oh, yes it will. 
Ironically you yourself posted about your son's gig having the majority of its participants not wearing masks, and the worries you had for your son.

Because the opening up is now wanted to go ahead, it cannot do so if it is a dead cert that mass lawbreaking will ensue. That sounds dramatic. But it would be the case.
Hence , whilst still wanting people to be cautious and to wear masks , the government has removed the requirement in law to do so.
No doubt you, as will I, will continue to wear masks when appropriate, as will many of us.
Some will not. Some will not now just because they now don't have to🙄, 

But the changing of the law seems reasonable to me in the light of the opening up of the remainder of the economy.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

In my view, and other views are available, whether you think masks are needed (as I do) or not, leaving that decision to people is crazy. We have sene plenty of picture on the news on the past couple of days that show you can't trust people to make reasonable decisions especially when they affect others. 

It is not just a question of personal freedom, there is a question of effects on others. If masks help, they should be mandated. If they do not, there should be no expectation that people will wear them and you shouldn't have the Tube mandating them but overground rail not. We have seen politicians and people here saying they won't wear them unless required, so they clearly plan to exercise no discretion or consider social responsibility. 

The halfway house position failed us before, when in the first week of "lockdown", it was based on advice rather than mandate. Didn't work then, won't work now.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

On the subject of whether young people really get sick or go to hospital, this was posted on a doctors social media site this morning:

*Hospitals are seeing rising numbers of seriously ill COVID-19 patients who are young adults, one intensive care specialist said today.*
_Yesterday the UK reported 50 deaths from the virus and rising hospital admissions, reflecting levels of disease not seen since early April.
Although millions of young adults have sought vaccination, vaccination rates have slowed down significantly this month, official data shows.
On Monday England reported fewer than 100,000 second doses being given. In June daily numbers of second doses ranged between 150,000 and 200,000. According to the latest data, English hospitals had 2,970 COVID-19 patients yesterday, the largest number since 1 April._

_The Times quotes the case of Matthew Keenan, aged 34, a vaccine sceptic, who is critically ill in Bradford._

_The vice-dean of the Faculty of Intensive Care Medicine, Dr Daniele Bryden, told the paper: “Seeing people on intensive care who’ve not got round to getting their vaccine sorted or only had one dose and not followed up the second one and then end up in intensive care, that’s really disheartening because there was something you could do about it, potentially.”_

_Dr Nick Scriven, of the Society for Acute Medicine, told the paper: “We are seeing poorly COVID patients who are almost entirely aged under 45 and unvaccinated.”_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Isn’t what the Government have done exactly what you suggested?

Time for people to take some responsibility.

Personally I’ll continue to wear a mask in shops/indoors etc as I have 2 vulnerable people at home.

I won’t be changing anything from what I do now!
		
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Indeed. Me also.  And so it seems to me that the governments cautious approach is actually nothing more than to ask, but not require, *us* to be cautious. I and very many others will be, but we already know from posts on here that that doesn’t guarantee anything.


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## DRW (Jul 14, 2021)

9News Sydney on Twitter: "CHAOS: Lines at a 24-hour #COVID19 testing hub in Fairfield are stretching for kilometres due to the new health order for essential workers. Since about 2am, a sea of brake lights has been growing continuously at the location. READ MORE: https://t.co/hRH3yMyNo3 #9News https://t.co/vIRgcUcCs5" / Twitter

 Think they need to get tested every 3 days, yeek, thats some big resources and time.

Where do zero covid countries go moving forward, they have big problems,  as we do. They are going to have to have cases/hospitalisations/deaths from this virus or stay shut forever.

Will they become like 'tribes' are now and in the past (ie. no great immunity to current worldwide circulating viruses), if a new 'variant of any virus' gets into their countries as immunity to the most recent kind of variant of say flu or even say the common cold wont be there/wane as time ticks on.

So many sides to this virus and no easy answers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think what SWLH is saying is politicians have said ''lifting all restrictions in 5 days is a cautious approach''. I guess he thinks that the politicians are wrong and it's not cautious.
Btw, I'm only repeating what I think Hogie said so not political  

Click to expand...

Not so much wrong as perhaps mis-represented as cautious - as it isn’t - it’s ‘big bang‘ lifting as far as constraints on us as individuals is concerned - unless I am missing something that I must keep doing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Which way do you want it? Do you want the economy to open up? Do you want the entertainment business to get back to normal?
You have said you do previously -your son having good reason for this!
If so, do you reject the reasoning that  it will be impractical and unfair on Law enforcement authorities to try to enforce a law which will be broken en masse. Which will be impossible to enforce.
Cinemas, theatres and nightclubs would be full of people most of whom would not wear masks. They would be subject to prosecution etc by the police.
The venues would be trying to operate,  with Police going in and dealing with the unlawful. 😳 Can you imagine that - ridiculous!
Or,if they don't go in ,  the farcical situation of the media and others demanding (for whatever reason) that the Police do go in and "do their duty"
But it won't be like that, you say.
Oh, yes it will.
Ironically you yourself posted about your son's gig having the majority of its participants not wearing masks, and the worries you had for your son.

Because the opening up is now wanted to go ahead, it cannot do so if it is a dead cert that mass lawbreaking will ensue. That sounds dramatic. But it would be the case.
Hence , whilst still wanting people to be cautious and to wear masks , the government has removed the requirement in law to do so.
No doubt you, as will I, will continue to wear masks when appropriate, as will many of us.
Some will not. Some will not now just because they now don't have to🙄,

But the changing of the law seems reasonable to me in the light of the opening up of the remainder of the economy.
		
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All good and reasonable - and it is difficult I get - but I ask again - what is it about the approach the government is defining for the 19th that makes for a cautious approach.  Because I don’t know.  I can be cautious but that is me and not anything the government is requiring me to do.  And if we are not cautious…well whatever next…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			Glad to see you're not getting political in you last few posts- or perhaps you are!
		
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I am asking about the measures I must hold to from the 19th because I don’t know what they are. That is not political it is a socio-economic and behavioural question.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is not just a question of personal freedom, there is a question of effects on others. If masks help, they should be mandated. If they do not, there should be no expectation that people will wear them and you shouldn't have the Tube mandating them but overground rail not. We have seen politicians and people here saying they won't wear them unless required, so they clearly plan to exercise no discretion or consider social responsibility.
		
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I see similarities between mask laws and the smoking ban. The ban on smoking was introduced to protect others from the effects of second hand smoke. The law requiring mask wearing indoors was also to protect others. The was no suggestion that we should use "common sense" or "personal responsibility" when it came to smoking indoors so the government has no problem legislating to protect the public in some cases but it would seem not in the case of mask wearing.


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## larmen (Jul 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I see similarities between mask laws and the smoking ban. The ban on smoking was introduced to protect others from the effects of second hand smoke. The law requiring mask wearing indoors was also to protect others. The was no suggestion that we should use "common sense" or "personal responsibility" when it came to smoking indoors so the government has no problem legislating to protect the public in some cases but it would seem not in the case of mask wearing.
		
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Different government, wasn’t that popular and not re-elected.
That’s probably as much politics as I want to get into.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I see similarities between mask laws and the smoking ban. The ban on smoking was introduced to protect others from the effects of second hand smoke. The law requiring mask wearing indoors was also to protect others. The was no suggestion that we should use "common sense" or "personal responsibility" when it came to smoking indoors so the government has no problem legislating to protect the public in some cases but it would seem not in the case of mask wearing.
		
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Nor on drink-driving or speeding, with of which can harm self and others.


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## larmen (Jul 14, 2021)

It looks like we get a case study on the effect of COVID on a fully vaccinated population

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57830617

Uk aircraft carrier, 3600 people, 100 cases. Granted, 3600 fit and healthy people, I assume.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

London Mayor Khan makes wearing a mask a condition of carriage for TfL.  Grant Shapps endorses Khan’s decision.  Khan will have to manage enforcement and take the flak from those who point out that the government has not mandated it.  But good at least that Khan is being allowed to do this and hopefully most will comply and ‘conflict’ will be minimal.


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## GB72 (Jul 14, 2021)

I went on a train last week, asked about masks on platforms as not sure if that was inside or outside. Was told that policy remains that masks should be worn in the station and on the train but staff would not make any approaches nor enforce it and so the final decision was down ot my conscience on the matter. Those going on about transport and the change of rules do not seem to appreciate that with some train companies, the new rules have been the rules all along. Pretty much the same with most shops. They have the signage etc but a mandate to staff not to enforce. For a while now, those who want to wear a mask have done, those who do not have not. The only difference will be those who were ambivilent to mask wearing.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			It looks like we get a case study on the effect of COVID on a fully vaccinated population

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57830617

Uk aircraft carrier, 3600 people, 100 cases. Granted, 3600 fit and healthy people, I assume.
		
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Maybe if there is a conflict at sea, they could get close enough to cough on the enemy.


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## larmen (Jul 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Maybe if there is a conflict at sea, they could get close enough to cough on the enemy.
		
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I thought more in the line of how many fully vaccinated get infected, have symptoms, get seriously ill, need hospitalisation.
We can compare that to a cruise ship from a year ago, roughly the same number and no vaccine.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			I thought more in the line of how many fully vaccinated get infected, have symptoms, get seriously ill, need hospitalisation.
We can compare that to a cruise ship from a year ago, roughly the same number and no vaccine.
		
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We would need to know what vax, and when they got it. No vax provides 100% protection against getting infected, especially in the period immediately after vax. Also, would be interesting to know what type of test. PCR may pick up dead virus incapable of transmission. The ship probably creates more intense transmission conditions than most office blocks or schools, lots of confined spaces with little ventilation, prolonged contact and a high occupancy in shared areas.


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## road2ruin (Jul 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			In my view, and other views are available, whether you think masks are needed (as I do) or not, *leaving that decision to people is crazy*. We have sene plenty of picture on the news on the past couple of days that show you can't trust people to make reasonable decisions especially when they affect others.

It is not just a question of personal freedom, there is a question of effects on others. If masks help, they should be mandated. If they do not, there should be no expectation that people will wear them and you shouldn't have the Tube mandating them but overground rail not. We have seen politicians and people here saying they won't wear them unless required, so they clearly plan to exercise no discretion or consider social responsibility.

The halfway house position failed us before, when in the first week of "lockdown", it was based on advice rather than mandate. Didn't work then, won't work now.
		
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We are on different sides when it comes to the positives of wearing masks however I am in complete agreement with the above. If the science says (however marginal it might be) that wearing masks in busy, enclosed spaces does some good then keep it mandatory for another few months or so but don't leave it up to people where the choice will just create division.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We are on different sides when it comes to the positives of wearing masks however I am in complete agreement with the above. If the science says (however marginal it might be) that wearing masks in busy, enclosed spaces then keep it mandatory for another few months or so but don't leave it up to people where the choice will just create division.
		
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I think we know where the finger of blame is going to be pointed if cases rise too high.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think we know where the finger of blame is going to be pointed if cases rise too high.
		
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Young people, old people, unmasked, single vaccinated, not vaccinated, not boostered, immigrants, holidays, clubbers, pub goers, Father Christmas. 

You can never be sure depends on the flavour of the month or week on who British people discriminate against


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## PNWokingham (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All good and reasonable - and it is difficult I get - but I ask again - what is it about the approach the government is defining for the 19th that makes for a cautious approach.  Because I don’t know.  I can be cautious but that is me and not anything the government is requiring me to do.  And if we are not cautious…well whatever next…
		
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I am not sure what you don’t get. They are removing the laws applicable to mask wearing and social distancing due to the success of the vaccine. It is time for the government to step back from centrally imposed blanket laws and for the individual and individual businesses to police how they operate. They are advising caution and many will follow this advise. Some will maintain requirements on distancing and masks. Others will not. Many people will still keep a distance from others, others will not. Their choice. Will this cause a spike in infections and deaths. No doubt in the short term but hopefully nothing like previous peaks. Normality will also help the livelihoods of many, like your son, and several of my friends who are still not working. We are a Liberal democracy and cannot now justify government-imposed restrictions on our liberty given the success of the vaccine. Anyone, and there will be many, that want to go forward with a cautious attitude to covid are free to do so - as the government are advising. I will keep my mask on me and use it on the tube and potentially other crowded places. And I am allowed to do that, just as others can do as they feel depending on any restrictions that shops, pubs, clubs, churches or transport impose


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## PNWokingham (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am asking about the measures I must hold to from the 19th because I don’t know what they are. That is not political it is a socio-economic and behavioural question.
		
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The measure that you must hold to are the ones that you want to or a venue that you visit require


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am asking about the measures I must hold to from the 19th because I don’t know what they are. That is not political it is a socio-economic and behavioural question.
		
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Do what you believe you should do. Worrying what everyone else will do will achieve nothing apart from pushing your bp up a few notches.

As for what you should do, surely everyone has heard enough guidance by now to know what they should do? You don’t need spoon feeding.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I am not sure what you don’t get. They are removing the laws applicable to mask wearing and social distancing due to the success of the vaccine. It is time for the government to step back from centrally imposed blanket laws and for the individual and individual businesses to police how they operate. They are advising caution and many will follow this advise. Some will maintain requirements on distancing and masks. Others will not. Many people will still keep a distance from others, others will not. Their choice. Will this cause a spike in infections and deaths. No doubt in the short term but hopefully nothing like previous peaks. Normality will also help the livelihoods of many, like your son, and several of my friends who are still not working. We are a Liberal democracy and cannot now justify government-imposed restrictions on our liberty given the success of the vaccine. Anyone, and there will be many, that want to go forward with a cautious attitude to covid are free to do so - as the government are advising. I will keep my mask on me and use it on the tube and potentially other crowded places. And I am allowed to do that, just as others can do as they feel depending on any restrictions that shops, pubs, clubs, churches or transport impose
		
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And remind me what is it about wearing a mask that is a problem - what liberties are lost when wearing a mask may prevent spreading the virus to another.  Asking me to be cautious is not the same as the government adopting a cautious approach.  The word is the same but the context, implications and likely behaviours are probably going to be quite different.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Do what you believe you should do. Worrying what everyone else will do will achieve nothing apart from pushing your bp up a few notches.

As for what you should do, surely everyone has heard enough guidance by now to know what they should do? You don’t need spoon feeding.
		
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If I trusted in the British public and their attitude to being asked to do something rather than being required to do something then I would agree.  But I don’t.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I am not sure what you don’t get. They are removing the laws applicable to mask wearing and social distancing due to the success of the vaccine. It is time for the government to step back from centrally imposed blanket laws and for the individual and individual businesses to police how they operate. They are advising caution and many will follow this advise. Some will maintain requirements on distancing and masks. Others will not. Many people will still keep a distance from others, others will not. Their choice. Will this cause a spike in infections and deaths. No doubt in the short term but hopefully nothing like previous peaks. Normality will also help the livelihoods of many, like your son, and several of my friends who are still not working. We are a Liberal democracy and cannot now justify government-imposed restrictions on our liberty given the success of the vaccine. Anyone, and there will be many, that want to go forward with a cautious attitude to covid are free to do so - as the government are advising. I will keep my mask on me and use it on the tube and potentially other crowded places. And I am allowed to do that, just as others can do as they feel depending on any restrictions that shops, pubs, clubs, churches or transport impose
		
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Most of the debate is about masks. I fail to see how the economy cannot open fully and still maintain masks on public transport, shops etc. Can you explain how the masks would keep your friends out of work?

A liberal democracy, as we used to have, does not allow people much scope to choose whether or not they harm others in major public health crises. Nor would it allow people to accept the hospitalisations and death of others just so they didn't feel offended by the requirement to wear a mask. Its very easy to type, 'OK, there'll be deaths, but not that many really and we need to move on'.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Young people, old people, unmasked, single vaccinated, not vaccinated, not boostered, immigrants, holidays, clubbers, pub goers, Father Christmas.

You can never be sure depends on the flavour of the month or week on who British people discriminate against
		
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And don't forget ..... the EU! They are always fundamentally at fault for bad things.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I am not sure what you don’t get. They are removing the laws applicable to mask wearing and social distancing due to the success of the vaccine. It is time for the government to step back from centrally imposed blanket laws and for the individual and individual businesses to police how they operate. They are advising caution and many will follow this advise. *Some will maintain requirements on distancing and masks. Others will not. *Many people will still keep a distance from others, others will not. Their choice. Will this cause a spike in infections and deaths. No doubt in the short term but hopefully nothing like previous peaks. Normality will also help the livelihoods of many, like your son, and several of my friends who are still not working. We are a Liberal democracy and cannot now justify government-imposed restrictions on our liberty given the success of the vaccine. *Anyone, and there will be many, that want to go forward with a cautious attitude to covid are free to do so* - as the government are advising. I will keep my mask on me and use it on the tube and potentially other crowded places. And I am allowed to do that, just as others can do as they feel depending on any restrictions that shops, pubs, clubs, churches or transport impose
		
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And how do the two bits in bold work if one person is wearing a mask and trying to maintain distancing but the second person chooses not to wear a mask or maintain distancing? The person with the cautious attitude is doing their best to keep themselves and others safe but can't do that if others choose not to.


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And how do the two bits in bold work if one person is wearing a mask and trying to maintain distancing but the second person chooses not to wear a mask or maintain distancing? The person with the cautious attitude is doing their best to keep themselves and others safe *but can't do that if others choose not to.*

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That is the thing. Personal responsibility is not nearly enough. Social responsibility is needed, and all of us have seen how lacking that is these days, so needs to be enforced. I would keep masks and do away with self-declared exemptions entirely.


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## Wabinez (Jul 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And how do the two bits in bold work if one person is wearing a mask and trying to maintain distancing but the second person chooses not to wear a mask or maintain distancing? The person with the cautious attitude is doing their best to keep themselves and others safe but can't do that if others choose not to.
		
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I am sure the mask wearer will be very British about it and tut, maybe throw in an eye roll and be passive aggressive about it 😂

for what it’s worth, and around here its not a lot, I will continue to wear a mask where I feel it is appropriate eg public transport or busy indoor areas


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If I trusted in the British public and their attitude to being asked to do something rather than being required to do something then I would agree.  But I don’t.
		
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Soooo, you don’t agree with following the guidance? That’s all you have to do, follow the guidance. What everyone else does is up to them, and you getting your knickers in a twist over what they do will achieve a whole heap of nothing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 14, 2021)

Rooter said:



			My mate wife is a nursery nurse, its ripped through their nursery.
		
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Thankfully we have both come back negative but both still have a bug of sorts - it seems that any symptoms of illness can be a symptom of Covid including standard hayfever


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 14, 2021)

For clarity, would those who agree that to not wear a mask in cinemas, theatres and nightclubs should remain unlawful, please say what they would expect to be done to enforce the law in the event of most people in these about to be opened places of entertainment refusing to wear a mask?
What would you expect to see happen?
Theorists need not reply😊😊

I would keep it the law that you should wear masks on public transport.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Most of the debate is about masks. I fail to see how the economy cannot open fully and still maintain masks on public transport, shops etc. Can you explain how the masks would keep your friends out of work?

A liberal democracy, as we used to have, does not allow people much scope to choose whether or not they harm others in major public health crises. Nor would it allow people to accept the hospitalisations and death of others just so they didn't feel offended by the requirement to wear a mask. Its very easy to type, 'OK, there'll be deaths, but not that many really and we need to move on'.
		
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Friends work in events - just like you know who - and they are currently still furloughed.

You may want masks, i fully agree with the restriction and the tone of the guidance to remove the law but advise caution

If even the wise and cautious sages from SAGE believe it is ok to open up and put the onus on the public due to the vaccine curtailing the large majority of deaths and serious illnessess then that should be good enough for most people - including me. And yes, time to move on and learn to live live with this horrible virus. There are untold how many thousands of deaths from other factors that have been undiagnosed because the focus was on covid.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			And how do the two bits in bold work if one person is wearing a mask and trying to maintain distancing but the second person chooses not to wear a mask or maintain distancing? The person with the cautious attitude is doing their best to keep themselves and others safe but can't do that if others choose not to.
		
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there may be scenarios where this happens but they should be rare if the people who are cautious on distancing want to behave that way - public transport likely the biggest issue. Nothing will be perfect and i am sure there will be issues but people need to learn to adapt and the country to get on with "normality"


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Friends work in events - just like you know who - and they are currently still furloughed.

You may want masks, i fully agree with the restriction and the tone of the guidance to remove the law but advise caution

If even the wise and cautious sages from SAGE believe it is ok to open up and put the onus on the public due to the vaccine curtailing the large majority of deaths and serious illnessess then that should be good enough for most people - including me. And yes, time to move on and learn to live live with this horrible virus. There are untold how many thousands of deaths from other factors that have been undiagnosed because the focus was on covid.
		
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OK, so you can't answer why wearing masks will stifle the economy. It won't. 

Advising caution is a complete waste of time and is, to borrow a phrase, gesture politics, to allow blame to be aimed at the public when the shit inevitably hits the fan. 

The SAGE advice has not been published, but you would have to be very cloth-eared not to have detected that Chris Whitty was unimpressed with the plan to do away with masks, and said as much as he could as an employee, to the extent that Johnson changed his previous position live on TV. SAGE advice has been overlooked a number of times so far. 

The fact that people have died from other conditions due to Covid does not mean that we now need to kill more people with Covid unnecessarily. Not sure why you want to do so.

The effectiveness of the vaccine to curtail those deaths, and all the other non-fatal effects you never mention, is not yet deep enough to throw away all the precautions at once.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			For clarity, would those who agree that to not wear a mask in cinemas, theatres and nightclubs should remain unlawful, please say what they would expect to be done to enforce the law in the event of most people in these about to be opened places of entertainment refusing to wear a mask?
What would you expect to see happen?
Theorists need not reply😊😊

I would keep it the law that you should wear masks on public transport.
		
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My information is that (at least some) venues and nightclubs especially are unlikely to make wearing a mask a condition of entry, because there is too much risk of chaos outside, with some claiming government advise holds precedence over the views of the venue.  And trying to maintain a strict mask policy at 11pm at night as lubricated nightclub goers look to enter the club;  are not likely to want to wear one and will resist whatever.  

As many smaller venues and clubs are really struggling they will have to open as they will be told that they can and so gov support will end.  Likewise the few employees lucky enough to receive furlough payments will lose them as they can now work, and those who are getting nothing will have to take work that comes their way.

A double-vaccination cert might be required at some point, but as many if not most club goers are under 30 they won’t have that for quite some weeks - so in the first instance at least clubs will not require one.  They might ask for a negative LF test result taken that day…though we know that for any individual that’s not much better than a toss of a coin, and can be copied/faked etc.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			OK, so you can't answer why wearing masks will stifle the economy. It won't.

Advising caution is a complete waste of time and is, to borrow a phrase, gesture politics, to allow blame to be aimed at the public when the shit inevitably hits the fan.

The SAGE advice has not been published, but you would have to be very cloth-eared not to have detected that Chris Whitty was unimpressed with the plan to do away with masks, and said as much as he could as an employee, to the extent that Johnson changed his previous position live on TV. SAGE advice has been overlooked a number of times so far.

The fact that people have died from other conditions due to Covid does not mean that we now need to kill more people with Covid unnecessarily. Not sure why you want to do so.

The effectiveness of the vaccine to curtail those deaths, and all the other non-fatal effects you never mention, is not yet deep enough to throw away all the precautions at once.
		
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thanks for your view. You know mine. Happy they have taken the steps they have. I never said wearing masks will stifle the economy but it is clearly harming the entire hospitality sector, even in the current "relatively free compared to before" state. But i don't like wearing masks even though i was happy to do so when we needed to. Now i believe that time has passed - albeit i will keep my mask and exercise my judgement to wear when i want in crowded spaces that can occur on public transport or if i was in the viscinity indoors with someone who is vulnerable


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## Ethan (Jul 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			thanks for your view. You know mine. Happy they have taken the steps they have. I never said wearing masks will stifle the economy but it is clearly harming the entire hospitality sector, even in the current "relatively free compared to before" state. But i don't like wearing masks even though i was happy to do so when we needed to. Now i believe that time has passed - albeit i will keep my mask and exercise my judgement to wear when i want in crowded spaces that can occur on public transport or if i was in the viscinity indoors with someone who is vulnerable
		
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Is it clearly hurting the hospitality sector? Can't people eat and drink in pubs and restaurants without masks? Do you think that cautious people will rush back to cinemas and other indoor places now that masks are not required. This step may hurt the hospitality sector more. How do you know if you are in the vicinity of someone at risk? Previously fit young people have died of Covid and some are in UK ICUs right now. Scanning the room to see if anyone looks rather doddery or has an oxygen cylinder with them probably will not suffice. Even if you exercise some well-intentioned caution, many others will not give a toss.


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Friends work in events - just like you know who - and they are currently still furloughed.

You may want masks, i fully agree with the restriction and the tone of the guidance to remove the law but advise caution

If even the wise and cautious sages from SAGE believe it is ok to open up and* put the onus on the public* due to the vaccine curtailing the large majority of deaths and serious illnessess then that should be good enough for most people - including me. And yes, time to move on and learn to live live with this horrible virus. There are untold how many thousands of deaths from other factors that have been undiagnosed because the focus was on covid.
		
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Rarely agree with the Star... but here it shows what our responsible citizens taking onus of something go about it...


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My information is that (at least some) venues and nightclubs especially are unlikely to make wearing a mask a condition of entry, because there is too much risk of chaos outside, with some claiming government advise holds precedence over the views of the venue.  And trying to maintain a strict mask policy at 11pm at night as lubricated nightclub goers look to enter the club;  are not likely to want to wear one and will resist whatever.  

As many smaller venues and clubs are really struggling they will have to open as they will be told that they can and so gov support will end.  Likewise the few employees lucky enough to receive furlough payments will lose them as they can now work, and those who are getting nothing will have to take work that comes their way.

A double-vaccination cert might be required at some point, but as many if not most club goers are under 30 they won’t have that for quite some weeks - so in the first instance at least clubs will not require one.  They might ask for a negative LF test result taken that day…though we know that for any individual that’s not much better than a toss of a coin, and can be copied/faked etc.
		
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I read what you're saying, H, but you don't seem to grasp that if  things happen as your first paragraph suggests ( and I agree that mask wearing would not happen), and if the law was as it is now, someone would have to enforce the law. That can only be the Police. Someone would demand they enter and stop the lawbreaking! Someone would demand why the lawbreakers are not arrested if there were resistance ( as there would be)
It would be chaos.
There is all the world a difference between implementing a policy and enforcing the law.!😊
That's why I am saying that if you demand the law remains as it is, you have to support and expect its enforcement. And if doing so is impractical and chaotic , and, yes, impossible-  how is that good policy?


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## RichA (Jul 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			For clarity, would those who agree that to not wear a mask in cinemas, theatres and nightclubs should remain unlawful, please say what they would expect to be done to enforce the law in the event of most people in these about to be opened places of entertainment refusing to wear a mask?
What would you expect to see happen?
Theorists need not reply😊😊

I would keep it the law that you should wear masks on public transport.
		
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In exactly the same way that it's been enforced on public transport for the last 16 months - as in not enforced. Like most of the laws of this country, it would rely on the citizens having respect for the society that they live in, rather than fearing the consequences of law enforcement. Do you abstain from drink driving because you fear the law or because you are socially responsible? I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of drink drivers don't get caught, so you'd probably get away with it.


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## Imurg (Jul 14, 2021)

Whilst I'm generally in favour of restrictions being relaxed I'm struggling with the logic.
A month ago there were fewer cases, fewer hospitalizations, fewer deaths..
A month later and all of the above are increasing despite more people having the vaccination...
And we're opening up on Monday.....

What am I missing?
Why is it better to open now rather than a month ago...?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My information is that (at least some) venues and nightclubs especially *are unlikely to make wearing a mask a condition of entry, because there is too much risk of chaos outside*, with some claiming government advise holds precedence over the views of the venue.  And trying to maintain a strict mask policy at 11pm at night as lubricated nightclub goers look to enter the club;  are not likely to want to wear one and will resist whatever.
		
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Before the pandemic nightclubs were making these decisions every day of the week. Some won't let you in wearing trainers. Others won't let you in wearing shorts. I don't see why there would be chaos outside. A couple of big signs saying "No mask, no entry" would let everyone know the rules. It's up to the individual establishment to make a decision on what their dress code is and if that includes masks then the public have a simple choice to make, either they abide by it or they go somewhere else. Not that it will affect me, my clubbing days are long gone.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Do what you believe you should do. Worrying what everyone else will do will achieve nothing apart from pushing your bp up a few notches.

As for what you should do, surely everyone has heard enough guidance by now to know what they should do? You don’t need spoon feeding.
		
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Chocolate eggs and bottoms come to mind 🙂


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			For clarity, would those who agree that to not wear a mask in cinemas, theatres and nightclubs should remain unlawful, please say what they would expect to be done to enforce the law in the event of most people in these about to be opened places of entertainment refusing to wear a mask?
What would you expect to see happen?
Theorists need not reply😊😊

I would keep it the law that you should wear masks on public transport.
		
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Very much like drugs. If a venue think someone has illegal drugs they don't let them in, if they sell or use them inside the bouncers throw you out, smoking is also in this class.  If the venue arnt acting responsible then they get a fine.  That's what happens now.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I would keep it the law that you should wear masks on public transport.
		
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I don't get why we didn't as a nation, Scotland once again leading the way on this

Khan has the power to change conditions of carriage for the tube (like bojo did with no drinking on the tube) so masks staying in London

Other mayor's who don't hold the power urging their metros to follow suit 

Now I don't get why having to wear a mask on a train would be a bad thing or put you off using it

It won't harm the economy one bit , infact it will boost it as masks bring in tax so people having to buy them ££££

This last year has proved whilst there are some lovely people this country is just full of idiots who think YouTube knows more than experts


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## pauljames87 (Jul 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Before the pandemic nightclubs were making these decisions every day of the week. Some won't let you in wearing trainers. Others won't let you in wearing shorts. I don't see why there would be chaos outside. A couple of big signs saying "No mask, no entry" would let everyone know the rules. It's up to the individual establishment to make a decision on what their dress code is and if that includes masks then the public have a simple choice to make, either they abide by it or they go somewhere else. Not that it will affect me, my clubbing days are long gone.
		
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For crying out loud don't start a dress code chat


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			For clarity, would those who agree that to not wear a mask in cinemas, theatres and nightclubs should remain unlawful, please say what they would expect to be done to enforce the law in the event of most people in these about to be opened places of entertainment refusing to wear a mask?
What would you expect to see happen?
Theorists need not reply😊😊

I would keep it the law that you should wear masks on public transport.
		
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I've been to the cinema twice since they reopened, I'm going again tomorrow. Everyone wears their mask until they reach their seat. The moment they sit down the masks come off. They get put on again when people leave. That's happening now, forget post 19th.

The cinema don't attempt to enforce the current rules, not entirely sure how they could if everyone in the cinema ignores them.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 14, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Whilst I'm generally in favour of restrictions being relaxed I'm struggling with the logic.
A month ago there were fewer cases, fewer hospitalizations, fewer deaths..
A month later and all of the above are increasing despite more people having the vaccination...
And we're opening up on Monday.....

What am I missing?
Why is it better to open now rather than a month ago...?
		
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More jabs in arms. Hopefully the numbers, although going up, are less than they would have been had they lifted restrictions completely on the original date


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## backwoodsman (Jul 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I wish everyone has had the opportunity. Because we’re below retirement age, 62 & 61, we can’t join the Spanish Healthcare System, relying on private healthcare. But private healthcare companies aren’t allowed to buy the vaccine.

After months of arguing the govt realised they had a large tranche of people that weren’t being vaccinated and offered temporary registration. After 3 months and 5 health centres we’ve finally found a HC that would accept us. That was a month ago. Swapped several emails with the Andalucian Health Board. Response just received… no you can’t be vaccinated.

With France shutting the door to unvaccinated travellers our trip back to the U.K. to see children and g’children is likely to be cancelled. I agree with vaccine passports and restrictions but it’s a bit harsh on those that have been trying, and trying, and trying to get vaccinated but can’t access it.
		
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Bri. Not doubting what you say - but I've a mate who lives in Valencia - age 59 - who's been double jabbed (And hoping, but totally unsure, that he'll be able to make a trip here for a golfing trip in September).? Any idea how or why he'll have been jabbed? Are the Regions doing things differently to each other? (I feel a message to him coming on ...)


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## road2ruin (Jul 14, 2021)

I know the cases look bad but a bit more positively……

December-23, 2020
• Cases 42,185
• Deaths 582

July-14, 2021
• Cases 42,302
• Deaths 49

The vaccines work.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I know the cases look bad but a bit more positively……

December-23, 2020
• Cases 42,185
• Deaths 582

July-14, 2021
• Cases 42,302
• Deaths 49

The vaccines work.
		
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It's not all about deaths.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 14, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Before the pandemic nightclubs were making these decisions every day of the week. Some won't let you in wearing trainers. Others won't let you in wearing shorts. I don't see why there would be chaos outside. A couple of big signs saying "No mask, no entry" would let everyone know the rules. It's up to the individual establishment to make a decision on what their dress code is and if that includes masks then the public have a simple choice to make, either they abide by it or they go somewhere else. Not that it will affect me, my clubbing days are long gone.
		
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I don’t know how old you are but nightclubs are for busting some shapes out, copious amounts of trips to the toilet, snogging and dragging whatever you can home. It couldn’t of been much different when you last went surely? 
 Not much point going to a nightclub with a mask on. Not much point in them being open or financially viable as there won’t be much interest.


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Bri. Not doubting what you say - but I've a mate who lives in Valencia - age 59 - who's been double jabbed (And hoping, but totally unsure, that he'll be able to make a trip here for a golfing trip in September).? Any idea how or why he'll have been jabbed? Are the Regions doing things differently to each other? (I feel a message to him coming on ...)
		
Click to expand...

Many of our friends who have gone down the same route as us have been double jabbed. I managed to speak to the Health Board admin office this afternoon, with the aid of a translator. Our paperwork never reached them from Turre. They said that it takes 2 days to receive an appointment after they get the paperwork. With the contacts we’ve got in the last few days I hope we can resolve this very soon.


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## BiMGuy (Jul 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t know how old you are but nightclubs are for busting some shapes out, copious amounts of trips to the toilet, snogging and dragging whatever you can home. It couldn’t of been much different when you last went surely?
Not much point going to a nightclub with a mask on. Not much point in them being open or financially viable as there won’t be much interest.
		
Click to expand...

This is busting some shapes out to most of the forum members 😂


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			This is busting some shapes out to most of the forum members 😂
View attachment 37570

Click to expand...

Rather Ageist of you!
It does have a whole different meaning for 'Taking the knee' though.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 14, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			This is busting some shapes out to most of the forum members 😂
View attachment 37570

Click to expand...


How are they supposed to do “big fish little fish cardboard box” like that?


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## SaintHacker (Jul 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not all about deaths.
		
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So whats the alternative? We stay locked down, forever. 3 lockdowns and its coming back again. Every time we ease restrictions it flares back up. Vaccines are saving lives and keeping people out of hospital, but its never going away.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			So whats the alternative? We stay locked down, forever. 3 lockdowns and its coming back again. Every time we ease restrictions it flares back up. Vaccines are saving lives and keeping people out of hospital, but its never going away.
		
Click to expand...

There are levels of lockdown. IMO removing all restrictions when the virus is ramping and all adults have not had chance to be vaccinated is not a good plan.   The current restrictions are not that severe for most people.  There are a lot of young people very ill in hospital with Covid and no doubt a great deal at home very ill with it, at the minimum keep mask wearing and social distancing in risk areas to try and dampen the explosion we will see after next week.


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## ExRabbit (Jul 15, 2021)

Why we can't continue to have to  wear face masks and socially distance in shops and on public transport by law is mind-boggling to me.

What kind of person would object to that with the increase in infection rates we are seeing?


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2021)

ExRabbit said:



			What kind of person would object to that with the increase in infection rates we are seeing?
		
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It has been widely reported that the Govt wanted to keep mandatory masks but did not have the support of backbenchers and did not want to have to rely on opposition support to pass it. I think we can therefore assume the scientific advice they had received did not include doing away with mandatory masks.

So, in answer to your question, what sort of person ..., the answer is a person like John Redwood. And some here, obviously.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2021)

The Academy of Medical Sciences has published a report on the likely resurgence this winter of flu and RSV, suppressed last winter, along with their new friend Covid. See if you can learn to live with this: Preparing for a challenging winter


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## Whereditgo (Jul 15, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			This is busting some shapes out to most of the forum members 😂
		
Click to expand...

Oy!.....Nothing wrong with a bit of Latin and ballroom


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## road2ruin (Jul 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The Academy of Medical Sciences has published a report on the likely resurgence this winter of flu and RSV, suppressed last winter, along with their new friend Covid. See if you can learn to live with this: Preparing for a challenging winter

Click to expand...

I know I'm probably missing something obvious but this paragraph.....

_1. A large resurgence of COVID-19 nationally, with local or regional epidemics. Modelling of our reasonable worst-case scenario – in which the effective reproduction rate of SARS-CoV-2 (Rt) rises to 1.7 from September 2020 onwards – suggests a peak in hospital admissions and deaths in January/February 2021 of a similar magnitude to that of the first wave in spring 2020, coinciding with a period of peak demand on the NHS. We are already seeing local outbreaks. The modelling estimates 119,900 (95% CrI 24,500 - 251,000) hospital deaths between September 2020 and June 2021, over double the number that occurred during the first wave in spring 2020._

On the basis that all of the adult population (who want it) have had both jabs by September (which I think the aim is) and then there is an Autumn booster campaign for the most vulnerable how is there going to be hospital admissions and deaths at a similar level to those we saw in March/April of last year? I know that the vaccine doesn't work on all however if those figures are correct what was the point in the whole vaccination thing anyway if the hospital admissions/deaths are the same as the unvaccinated wave last year? Surely with the entire adult population being vaccinated the figures cannot be that high can they?


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## DRW (Jul 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I know I'm probably missing something obvious but this paragraph.....

_1. A large resurgence of COVID-19 nationally, with local or regional epidemics. Modelling of our reasonable worst-case scenario – in which the effective reproduction rate of SARS-CoV-2 (Rt) rises to 1.7 from September 2020 onwards – suggests a peak in hospital admissions and deaths in January/February 2021 of a similar magnitude to that of the first wave in spring 2020, coinciding with a period of peak demand on the NHS. We are already seeing local outbreaks. The modelling estimates 119,900 (95% CrI 24,500 - 251,000) hospital deaths between September 2020 and June 2021, over double the number that occurred during the first wave in spring 2020._

On the basis that all of the adult population (who want it) have had both jabs by September (which I think the aim is) and then there is an Autumn booster campaign for the most vulnerable how is there going to be hospital admissions and deaths at a similar level to those we saw in March/April of last year? I know that the vaccine doesn't work on all however if those figures are correct what was the point in the whole vaccination thing anyway if the hospital admissions/deaths are the same as the unvaccinated wave last year? Surely with the entire adult population being vaccinated the figures cannot be that high can they?
		
Click to expand...

The paper was issued on the 14.7.*2020*...........


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I know I'm probably missing something obvious but this paragraph.....

_1. A large resurgence of COVID-19 nationally, with local or regional epidemics. Modelling of our reasonable worst-case scenario – in which the effective reproduction rate of SARS-CoV-2 (Rt) rises to 1.7 from September 2020 onwards – suggests a peak in hospital admissions and deaths in January/February 2021 of a similar magnitude to that of the first wave in spring 2020, coinciding with a period of peak demand on the NHS. We are already seeing local outbreaks. The modelling estimates 119,900 (95% CrI 24,500 - 251,000) hospital deaths between September 2020 and June 2021, over double the number that occurred during the first wave in spring 2020._

On the basis that all of the adult population (who want it) have had both jabs by September (which I think the aim is) and then there is an Autumn booster campaign for the most vulnerable how is there going to be hospital admissions and deaths at a similar level to those we saw in March/April of last year? I know that the vaccine doesn't work on all however if those figures are correct what was the point in the whole vaccination thing anyway if the hospital admissions/deaths are the same as the unvaccinated wave last year? Surely with the entire adult population being vaccinated the figures cannot be that high can they?
		
Click to expand...

The point being made is that we are stopping all regulations next week but all adults have not been given the opportunity to be jabbed.  Virus levels are spiraling upwards , hospitals are starting to struggle and are putting off more non Covid treatments.   It just doesn't seem the best time to stop some of the protection rules.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2021)

DRW said:



			The paper was issued on the 14.7.*2020*...........
		
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I linked to the wrong document.

This is a Telegraph report from today on the report, can't find the full document.


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## Italian outcast (Jul 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Many of our friends who have gone down the same route as us have been double jabbed. I managed to speak to the Health Board admin office this afternoon, with the aid of a translator. Our paperwork never reached them from Turre. They said that it takes 2 days to receive an appointment after they get the paperwork. With the contacts we’ve got in the last few days I hope we can resolve this very soon.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure they will sort it out for you both

I was in a relatively similar position in Italy - although they had the paperwork and they were organising an appointment
But as i could also access it in France - where they effectively were offering it to any nationality, if in the correct age group - we decided that I would go there - got it no problem J&J and Uefa green card etc

That also allowed me to spend some time with the Lass who's been there for most of the last 8 months for various reasons


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## PNWokingham (Jul 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I linked to the wrong document.

This is a Telegraph report from today on the report, can't find the full document.
		
Click to expand...

so excess flu deaths is going to be another consequence of the lockdown

"Covid cases are expected to surge in the winter, and experts are also predicting an *unprecedented spike in influenza and RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) infections due to a lack of natural immunity as a result of lockdowns throughout 2020 and 2021.*
Sir Patrick Vallance, the Chief Scientific Adviser, commissioned the report which was spearheaded by Professor Sir Stephen Holgate, Medical Research Council clinical professor of immunopharmacology, and involved 29 leading experts.
The report projected flu deaths could reach 60,000 this winter in a worst-case scenario, more than twice as many as the record-breaking figures of the winter of 2017/2018."


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			so excess flu deaths is going to be another consequence of the lockdown

"Covid cases are expected to surge in the winter, and experts are also predicting an *unprecedented spike in influenza and RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) infections due to a lack of natural immunity as a result of lockdowns throughout 2020 and 2021.*
Sir Patrick Vallance, the Chief Scientific Adviser, commissioned the report which was spearheaded by Professor Sir Stephen Holgate, Medical Research Council clinical professor of immunopharmacology, and involved 29 leading experts.
The report projected flu deaths could reach 60,000 this winter in a worst-case scenario, more than twice as many as the record-breaking figures of the winter of 2017/2018."
		
Click to expand...

Won't people having a flu jab keep a lid on it.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Won't people having a flu jab keep a lid on it.
		
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who knows, but just highlights another consequence of the lockdown. Covid deaths are one small part of the overall death rate and need to be seen as such in a post-vacine world


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 15, 2021)

How can I supply evidence of my coerced vaccination in a pub when the NHS Admin are a waste of space?


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## DRW (Jul 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Won't people having a flu jab keep a lid on it.
		
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Not sure if you are aware how ineffective the flu jab is, its poor 10% -60% (ish), see here :-

How Effective is the Flu Vaccine? (webmd.com)

Sadly, Flu kills many people who are relatively weak(a typical example is the old/ill). Covid is likely to be the same moving forward.

There are pay backs on immunity to come and longer we try to control all viruses that we can not stop by vaccines/infection, that the larger the payback (a good example of a virus we can control is measles, EDIT as its 'half life' of antibodies & mutation is super long/infective for cell entry and vaccines are 'basically' valid for a lifetime),  As I posted the other day, think of tribes and how many die when a virus gets into them, due to lack of immunity from previous infection/vaccines.

Lockdowns are a very short term measure, or a very dangerous longer term experiment.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			so excess flu deaths is going to be another consequence of the lockdown

"Covid cases are expected to surge in the winter, and experts are also predicting an *unprecedented spike in influenza and RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) infections due to a lack of natural immunity as a result of lockdowns throughout 2020 and 2021.*
Sir Patrick Vallance, the Chief Scientific Adviser, commissioned the report which was spearheaded by Professor Sir Stephen Holgate, Medical Research Council clinical professor of immunopharmacology, and involved 29 leading experts.
The report projected flu deaths could reach 60,000 this winter in a worst-case scenario, more than twice as many as the record-breaking figures of the winter of 2017/2018."
		
Click to expand...

No, excess flu deaths is going to be a result of failing to effectively control Covid in a timely manner. There may be a rebound of flu deaths avoided previously. This will, however, put strain on the NHS and interfere with the treatment of other non-ovoid conditions about which you are very concerned.


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## Ethan (Jul 15, 2021)

DRW said:



			Not sure if you are aware how ineffective the flu jab is, its poor 10% -60% (ish), see here :-

How Effective is the Flu Vaccine? (webmd.com)

Sadly, Flu kills many people who are relatively weak(a typical example is the old/ill). Covid is likely to be the same moving forward.

There are pay backs on immunity to come and longer we try to control all viruses that we can not stop by vaccines/infection, that the larger the payback (a good example of a virus we can control is measles, EDIT as its 'half life' of antibodies & mutation is super long/infective for cell entry and vaccines are 'basically' valid for a lifetime),  As I posted the other day, think of tribes and how many die when a virus gets into them, due to lack of immunity from previous infection/vaccines.

Lockdowns are a very short term measure, or a very dangerous longer term experiment.
		
Click to expand...

The flu jab isn't brilliant. There are other versions in development, including an mRNA version by Moderna, and a combined Covid/flu from Novavax.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			How can I supply evidence of my coerced vaccination in a pub when the NHS Admin are a waste of space? 
	View attachment 37581

Click to expand...

I believe you can download it. When you can get on the system of course 🙂


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 15, 2021)

After getting a negative PCR test I was allowed out of isolation in my hotel and to go into the field office (wearing a mask until my symptoms had gone). I'm now back in isolation in my hotel as one of the other guys in the office has had a positive PCR test for Covid. The rest of us now have to take rapid tests every day for 4 days until we go for our own PCR tests on Monday. Assuming that is negative we're allowed out of isolation.


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2021)

Spanish Constitutional Court rules all lockdowns in Spain were illegal. Due process wasn’t followed In instigating them. All fines could be annulled.


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## backwoodsman (Jul 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Many of our friends who have gone down the same route as us have been double jabbed. I managed to speak to the Health Board admin office this afternoon, with the aid of a translator. Our paperwork never reached them from Turre. They said that it takes 2 days to receive an appointment after they get the paperwork. With the contacts we’ve got in the last few days I hope we can resolve this very soon.
		
Click to expand...

In which case, fingers crossed that things are sorted soon


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## pauljames87 (Jul 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			How can I supply evidence of my coerced vaccination in a pub when the NHS Admin are a waste of space? 
	View attachment 37581

Click to expand...

Call 119 Nd get it posted to you.


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## Beezerk (Jul 15, 2021)

Had a bit of a cough and sore throat today, did a lateral flow test earlier which came up negative, going to do another in the morning. Not sure if I should book a PCR test as well 🤔


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2021)

New word the press have invented…we are in a pingdemic.  And as numbers of new infections rises each day, as they will be able to rise even quicker after the 19th (unless we are very careful), so the pingdemic gets worse and starts to shut down the country.  This would be bonkers and silly if it were not so serious.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Had a bit of a cough and sore throat today, did a lateral flow test earlier which came up negative, going to do another in the morning. Not sure if I should book a PCR test as well 🤔
		
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If it doesn't meet the symptoms I don't think you can officially get one 

The lateral flow are pretty decent , just do extra one tomorrow maybe


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Had a bit of a cough and sore throat today, did a lateral flow test earlier which came up negative, going to do another in the morning. Not sure if I should book a PCR test as well 🤔
		
Click to expand...

That’s exactly what I and the daughter had so we went for one to be safe 👍



pauljames87 said:



			If it doesn't meet the symptoms I don't think you can officially get one

The lateral flow are pretty decent , just do extra one tomorrow maybe
		
Click to expand...

He has two of the symptoms


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2021)

The numbers here in southern Spain continue to rise. An article in this morning’s paper has a piece from a doctor who works in ICU, Malaga. He ‘talks’ about the average age of patients is now below 40 and none of them have had underlying conditions. The number of deaths is rising slowly but is considered to be no more than a typical flu number. However, the age of those dying is of great concern, and a number of tourist hotspots are considering closing nightclubs and bars. There’s also talk of beaches being closed.


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## Ethan (Jul 16, 2021)

This is a Mirror story, from a SAGE member, about non-fatal organ damage of the sort I have mentioned here a few times. With young people, Covid is not about deaths now, it is about damage that may cause serious problems later.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s exactly what I and the daughter had so we went for one to be safe 👍



He has two of the symptoms
		
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No he doesnt

a high temperature
a new, continuous cough
a loss or change to your sense of smell or taste


Sore throat isn't one and his cough needs to be continuous


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## pauljames87 (Jul 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Had a bit of a cough and sore throat today, did a lateral flow test earlier which came up negative, going to do another in the morning. Not sure if I should book a PCR test as well 🤔
		
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*a new, continuous cough* – this means coughing a lot for more than an hour, or 3 or more coughing episodes in 24 hours (if you usually have a cough, it may be worse than usual)

If not that then it's not a symptom officially


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## AmandaJR (Jul 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



This is a Mirror story, from a SAGE member, about non-fatal organ damage of the sort I have mentioned here a few times. With young people, Covid is not about deaths now, it is about damage that may cause serious problems later.
		
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Played golf yesterday with the conspiracy theorist - it's all about government propoganda and scaremongering etc etc. Mentioned more people die from cancer daily and I could see your words "IT'S NOT ABOUT THE DEATHS" and tried not to shout that across the golf course! Calmy gave the scientific/medical viewpoint (aided by your expertise) but clearly fell on deaf ears. Our fellow golfers whispered "Amanda please don't mention it again"!


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## Ethan (Jul 16, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Played golf yesterday with the conspiracy theorist - it's all about government propoganda and scaremongering etc etc. Mentioned more people die from cancer daily and I could see your words "IT'S NOT ABOUT THE DEATHS" and tried not to shout that across the golf course! Calmy gave the scientific/medical viewpoint (aided by your expertise) but clearly fell on deaf ears. Our fellow golfers whispered "Amanda please don't mention it again"!
		
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Right now, more people do die from cancer every day. But those who now die from Covid are younger and had many more years of life left. But, as you say, it ain't just about the deaths. I wouldn't bother trying to persuade those who have set their minds against it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			No he doesnt

a high temperature
a new, continuous cough
a loss or change to your sense of smell or taste


Sore throat isn't one and his cough needs to be continuous
		
Click to expand...





Sore throat is a symptom and there have been a number of changes over that past couple of weeks of the symptoms of Covid especially the delta variant


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## pauljames87 (Jul 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 37590


Sore throat is a symptom and there have been a number of changes over that past couple of weeks of the symptoms of Covid especially the delta variant
		
Click to expand...

However delta isn't for PCR tests on the official website for tests yet 

So follow the guidelines until they change.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 37590


Sore throat is a symptom and there have been a number of changes over that past couple of weeks of the symptoms of Covid especially the delta variant
		
Click to expand...

A suspiciously broad list of everyday symptoms of just being alive. 

Why don’t they just say test everyday please?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 16, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			A suspiciously broad list of everyday symptoms of just being alive.

Why don’t they just say test everyday please?
		
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Laterial flow tests anyone can test twice a week for free

We do 

If postive you get a PCR 

Only get a PCR if postive or get the symptoms the NHS ask for


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 16, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			A suspiciously broad list of everyday symptoms of just being alive.

Why don’t they just say test everyday please?
		
Click to expand...

The Delta variant has a different range of symptoms- the last couple of people I know that caught it thought they had bad hayfever to start with a sore throat as well - the virus evolves just like the common cold and flu viruses - during the winter months it will prob be the other winter symptoms.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Laterial flow tests anyone can test twice a week for free

We do 

If postive you get a PCR 

Only get a PCR if postive or get the symptoms the NHS ask for
		
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I know that, and I test at work as well as the LF at home as I would like a covid related holiday like my skiving colleagues have been taking many on more than one occasion. 

Point I’m making is the messaging in the poster hints to me that they would like more tests to be done. I’m a cynic you see. 
I can get one or two of those symptoms a day apart from diarrhoea or vomit as then I would be in big trouble, but the rest are everyday symptoms of just waking up.

I think the powers that be should just be more transparent.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



View attachment 37590


Sore throat is a symptom and there have been a number of changes over that past couple of weeks of the symptoms of Covid especially the delta variant
		
Click to expand...

Two or three of those are normal for most people over sixty.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Two it three of those are normal for most people over sixty.
		
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At least four for people with a hangover.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2021)

That what is planned for the 19th July is considered by 1200 scientists and experts from around the globe to be ‘a dangerous and unethical experiment‘ is worrying.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2021)

Over 50,000 new cases last 24 hours.  Great 🙄


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## Robster59 (Jul 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Laterial flow tests anyone can test twice a week for free

We do

If postive you get a PCR

Only get a PCR if positive or get the symptoms the NHS ask for
		
Click to expand...

We've got the free LF Tests and are doing them twice a week.  Apart from the discomfort of shoving an extended cotton bud to the back of your throat and then up your nose (remembering to do them in that order!) they're very simple to do.  It then takes a minute to report it back via the Government website.  Not sure if it helps anyone else but at least we're keeping an eye on ourselves.


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## Ethan (Jul 16, 2021)

Between case numbers, Chris Whitty's warnings, new data on the prevalence of organ damage in people who have had Covid, and changes to travel from France (now apparently a reddish shade of amber), this Freedom Day (freedom for Covid to wreak havoc, it seems) is beginning to look like a total [redacted]-show in the making.

It really is time for some leaders to show some leadership before this goes very bad. Relaxing all this stuff on Monday is an act of reckless lunacy. It is not going to have the effects hoped for on the economy. Possibly might make them worse.

Other opinions are available and will, no doubt, be along shortly.


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Between case numbers, Chris Whitty's warnings, new data on the prevalence of organ damage in people who have had Covid, and changes to travel from France (now apparently a reddish shade of amber), this Freedom Day (freedom for Covid to wreak havoc, it seems) is beginning to look like a total [redacted]-show in the making.

It really is time for some leaders to show some leadership before this goes very bad. Relaxing all this stuff on Monday is an act of reckless lunacy. It is not going to have the effects hoped for on the economy. Possibly might make them worse.

Other opinions are available and will, no doubt, be along shortly.
		
Click to expand...

Looking at the graphs for the U.K., Spain and globally, this current spike is as tall as January’s and November. We were in full lockdown for those two spikes. Thankfully, deaths are lower but they tend to follow a couple of weeks later.

Concerning to say the least.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2021)

I hear that although Bulgaria is on our 'go to' list from Monday - Bulgaria has decided that they don't want any of us.  That's the thing with borders - there are two sides to them and we can only control our side.


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## larmen (Jul 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I hear that although Bulgaria is on our 'go to' list from Monday - Bulgaria has decided that they don't want any of us.  That's the thing with borders - there are two sides to them and we can only control our side.
		
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We just go through the same with Denmark. I don’t think there is a chance they change their mind again in the next couple of weeks, the way our numbers are going.

My boss went to France to drop her kids off at the grandparents, I guess next Wednesdays office meetings not happening now.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 16, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			We've got the free LF Tests and are doing them twice a week.  Apart from the discomfort of shoving an extended cotton bud to the back of your throat and then up your nose (remembering to do them in that order!) they're very simple to do.  It then takes a minute to report it back via the Government website.  Not sure if it helps anyone else but at least we're keeping an eye on ourselves.
		
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Yeah we do them aswell 

Try to arrange the days so it's on a day we doing something ie if we going her grandads tomorrow we will make it so test one was Wednesday so Saturday is next test and we know we should be safe


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2021)

Barcelona back under curfew regulations.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 17, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Laterial flow tests anyone can test twice a week for free

We do

If postive you get a PCR

Only get a PCR if postive or get the symptoms the NHS ask for
		
Click to expand...

According to her indoors who works in childcare and has just been closed for the last week of term 🙄 if you have been double jabbed but then get told to isolate through close contact youbare encouraged to book a pcr test as the symptoms in the vaccd arw so mild, if any at all


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## ger147 (Jul 17, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			According to her indoors who works in childcare and has just been closed for the last week of term 🙄 if you have been double jabbed but then get told to isolate through close contact youbare encouraged to book a pcr test as the symptoms in the vaccd arw so mild, if any at all
		
Click to expand...

I wish that was the case. I'm still unable to play golf after 2 weeks as my cough is still so bad that I can't breathe properly if I start a coughing fit and my wife was off her work for 3 weeks, both double vacc'd when we had it passed on to us by our daughter who got it at work and brought it home to us.

I was in bed for 5 days and lost 8lbs in 7 days and my wife was in bed for the best part of a fortnight so deffo wouldn't count what we had as "mild if any at all" symptoms.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That what is planned for the 19th July is considered by 1200 scientists and experts from around the globe to be ‘a dangerous and unethical experiment‘ is worrying.
		
Click to expand...

In England only, two thirds of Scots are behind their governments more cautious approach, same in Wales I believe.
I fear England are making an horrendous mistake, especially after the reactions of last weeks football fans.
Bound to be a massive surge in cases IMVHO.


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## Slime (Jul 17, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I hear that although Bulgaria is on our 'go to' list from Monday - Bulgaria has decided that they don't want any of us.  That's the thing with borders - there are two sides to them and *we can only control our side.*

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, we've not been able to do that for many years.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 17, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In England only, two thirds of Scots are behind their governments more cautious approach, same in Wales I believe.
I fear England are making an horrendous mistake, especially after the reactions of last weeks football fans.
Bound to be a massive surge in cases IMVHO.
		
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Do you have a link to the source for that 2/3 of Scots claim? A source that uses data driven evidence.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 17, 2021)

Daughters partner, he is a Bobby. He was at the station a couple of days ago and a “ wanted”  criminal walks through the door handing himself in. He is promptly arrested And chucked in the slammer. During questioning he just nonchalantly drops out that he has no taste or smell. Not only that he point blank refuses to take a Covid test to see if he actually has it. The consequences are that five coppers are now isolating for 10 days 😡
human rights or not, I would Chuck him in a cell and leave him for 10 days.
PS, it is the third time since Xmas he has had to isolate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Do you have a link to the source for that 2/3 of Scots claim? A source that uses data driven evidence.
		
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Quoted on BBC Scotland, assume it was a survey report.
As I am sure you know, BBC Scotland is occasionally a supporter of Scottish Government announcements.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 17, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quoted on BBC Scotland, assume it was a survey report.
As I am sure you know, BBC Scotland is occasionally a supporter of Scottish Government announcements.

Click to expand...

Funny that, I assumed it to be your normal anti English rhetoric 😍


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## GreiginFife (Jul 17, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quoted on BBC Scotland, assume it was a survey report.
As I am sure you know, BBC Scotland is occasionally a supporter of Scottish Government announcements.

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So no actual link as such? Just a vague reference with an assumption? 

So when the BBC agree with the SNP its the bastian of truth and light but woebetide them when they disagree?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			So no actual link as such? Just a vague reference with an assumption?

So when the BBC agree with the SNP its the bastian of truth and light but woebetide them when they disagree?
		
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No, only on the two or three occasions per year when BBC Scotland surprises us.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 17, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I wish that was the case. I'm still unable to play golf after 2 weeks as my cough is still so bad that I can't breathe properly if I start a coughing fit and my wife was off her work for 3 weeks, both double vacc'd when we had it passed on to us by our daughter who got it at work and brought it home to us.

I was in bed for 5 days and lost 8lbs in 7 days and my wife was in bed for the best part of a fortnight so deffo wouldn't count what we had as "mild if any at all" symptoms.
		
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Sorry to hear that and that is just the sort of genuine experience more need to be aware of. Double jabbed does not mean invincible - not by a long shot. Hope you are both fully recovered soon.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 17, 2021)

back in the office in the city one day a week - had to have it all planned - just wednesdays. Social distancing and masks still in place .


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## Hobbit (Jul 17, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			In England only, two thirds of Scots are behind their governments more cautious approach, same in Wales I believe.
I fear England are making an horrendous mistake, especially after the reactions of last weeks football fans.
Bound to be a massive surge in cases IMVHO.
		
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Remind me of the Scots who travelled to Wembley without tickets and the surge in cases afterwards…. Good thing the Scottish idiots were so responsible…


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Remind me of the Scots who travelled to Wembley without tickets and the surge in cases afterwards…. Good thing the Scottish idiots were so responsible…

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That was just a drop in the ocean compared to what will happen in England.
We seem to be hitting our peak now thanks to our home grown Scottish idiots.


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## harpo_72 (Jul 17, 2021)

We are back in wipe down mode …not believing that it will open up fully here, if it does we will still close ourselves off and avoid any unnecessary risk … which may mean missing the circus but hey ho I would rather be and my family be alive and well


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## D-S (Jul 17, 2021)

The only changes for me after Monday is that I can rake a bunker (not using the individual rakes we have been using) and maybe take the odd pin out. I will sanitise my hands when necessary, as i do now when using communal surfaces such as door handles. I might go to the bar to order as long as it is not rammed (if so I wouldn’t frequent the venue in the first place).
Otherwise life will be unchanged, if I am in a crowded space (extremely unlikely) I will wear a mask. So for me and most I know there will be little or no change as will also be the case for those who are breaking the rules for the past months anyway.


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## howbow88 (Jul 18, 2021)

Does anyone get the feeling that this will never end? I'm not a conspiracy theorist - I've had my jabs and other than travel abroad, my life isn't dramatically different. 

But every time there appears to be some light at the end of the tunnel, it is quickly whisked away. 

Eg - last month I put myself into the draw for Masters tickets. Knowing the odds are extremely low, I put myself down for all days, including the practice days. I thought the idea that we wouldn't be able to go to the US by Spring next year as fairly ridiculous. By then, both countries vaccination levels will be extremely high and I thought Covid will just simply be something like a common cold. But now, I find it very difficult to imagine that being the case. 

I've said on here before that I do covid testing for work, and not too long ago we were told that we would be there for another year, possibly 18 months. This has already changed to 'minimum 2 years.'


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## howbow88 (Jul 18, 2021)

The other big difference in my life, is no going to the football. I've renewed my season ticket and so should be going in a month's time... It's quite hard to see that happening at the moment.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 18, 2021)

@Ethan 
How similar is Covid to Spanish flu 

That raged across the world 100 years ago and burnt itself out after a couple of years without the benefit of vaccinations.

Any parallels?


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## IainP (Jul 18, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I wish that was the case. I'm still unable to play golf after 2 weeks as my cough is still so bad that I can't breathe properly if I start a coughing fit and my wife was off her work for 3 weeks, both double vacc'd when we had it passed on to us by our daughter who got it at work and brought it home to us.

I was in bed for 5 days and lost 8lbs in 7 days and my wife was in bed for the best part of a fortnight so deffo wouldn't count what we had as "mild if any at all" symptoms.
		
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That's a sobering tale, thanks for sharing. Hopefully you'll both be over it soon. Shows how variable it can be. Out of interest how was your daughter affected?


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## ger147 (Jul 18, 2021)

IainP said:



			That's a sobering tale, thanks for sharing. Hopefully you'll both be over it soon. Shows how variable it can be. Out of interest how was your daughter affected?
		
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Thank you.

She was in bed for a week and we had to speak to the doctor and get anti-sickness tablets to help her as she couldn't even drink without throwing up, which is apparently quite a common symptom amongst younger folk who get it. She also ran a really high temperature for several days and lost her taste and smell.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 18, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Ethan
How similar is Covid to Spanish flu

That raged across the world 100 years ago and burnt itself out after a couple of years without the benefit of vaccinations.

Any parallels?
		
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You're probably better off asking @chrisd. He's lived through both so can give first hand knowledge. 




Sorry Chris, couldn't resist.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



@Ethan
How similar is Covid to Spanish flu

That raged across the world 100 years ago and burnt itself out after a couple of years without the benefit of vaccinations.

Any parallels?
		
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There are some parallels, and one of those is that the basic principles of quarantine and hygiene apply to both, and to other infectious diseases. Another is that the places who applied those measures most effectively were able to return to normal fastest. The UK has not picked up on that lesson. Spanish 'flu was a variant of an already well known virus, and in the post war period with lots of malnutrition, homelessness, poor hygiene and other diseases, it probably was able to take a better grip than it would have in settled times. It did cause broader effects than just respiratory, but not to the same extent as Covid does. Spanish flu didn't really burn itself out, it ran its course pretty effectively. If the same numbers occurred with Covid, we would see a global death toll of over 100 million.

Covid is different in a number of respects, but the main one is that the whole body disease (aka systemic) aspect is stronger. The initial infection is like a flu/respiratory illness (although not a pneumonia), but the real bad news is the second stage which kicks in for some people around day 7. This is the inflammatory phase, and like with sepsis, a cascade of inflammatory substances called cytokines generated by your immune system spread throughout the body and can cause damage to the vasculature, indirectly causing strokes, heart attacks etc, and to end organs like the kidneys, liver, heart and brain causing renal failure, hepatic failure, myocarditis and encephalitis. The Spanish flu caused a cytokine storm in some, and that contributed to killing more of the young adults than flu generally kills, but this effect appears to be less prominent than with Covid.

This cytokine storm is what kills people who seemed to be getting better then deteriorated. The problem we now see is that even in a minority, but still a significant number, of people who have not had a bad illness, some of the inflammatory effects have taken place. Not enough to tip you over into renal failure right now, but it has eaten away at your 'reserve' of renal function, and in the medium term, there could be trouble. Likewise studies of brain MRI and cardiac ultrasound have shown effects and damage in people who thought they had a relatively mild illness. There have also been reports of increased rates of Type I Diabetes in kids (the immune type, not the pie-fetish type) due to inflammatory effects on the pancreas. This last bit is what I am concerned about this next phase. I think we are storing up a lot of trouble down the line with youngish people going into renal, hepatic failure at a younger than usual age.

With flu, over the years and decades, we have built up a complicated immunity to it, such that most younger or fitter people can now deal with it easily enough, and don't even get a symptomatic illness even though they are inevitably exposed to it. Older people who have other illnesses and whose immune systems are not so effective need the vaccine. In time we will get to the same place with Covid, maybe faster with the new more effective vaccines, but I think we should be more careful while we get there.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 18, 2021)




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## Beezerk (Jul 18, 2021)

Did another lateral flow test on Friday, negative again. Had football training yesterday morning, the weather was crucifying so I put that down to why I felt sick halfway through, played golf in the afternoon, felt ok despite how hot it was. Woke up this morning with a sore throat and cold like symptoms again, bit of a cough which has got slightly worse as the morning as progressed.
Managed to book a PCR test for 8.30 so I've nipped out and got it done.
I don't really feel ill as such, just like I have a minor cold or something but nothing I'd be taking time off work for in normal times.
Need to email work now to tell them I won't be available tomorrow


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Does anyone get the feeling that this will never end? I'm not a conspiracy theorist - I've had my jabs and other than travel abroad, my life isn't dramatically different. 

But every time there appears to be some light at the end of the tunnel, it is quickly whisked away. 

Eg - last month I put myself into the draw for Masters tickets. Knowing the odds are extremely low, I put myself down for all days, including the practice days. I thought the idea that we wouldn't be able to go to the US by Spring next year as fairly ridiculous. By then, both countries vaccination levels will be extremely high and I thought Covid will just simply be something like a common cold. But now, I find it very difficult to imagine that being the case. 

I've said on here before that I do covid testing for work, and not too long ago we were told that we would be there for another year, possibly 18 months. This has already changed to 'minimum 2 years.'
		
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Yes I get the feeling it’s never going to end, too many people have become “addicted” to the Covid crisis. The press especially (and a few on here too) cannot move on…We have to learn to live with it, accept we are not going to eradicate it and for the love of dog stop testing.

Unfortunately that’s unlikely so we will be under yet another lockdown in 3-5 weeks.


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## Billysboots (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes I get the feeling it’s never going to end, too many people have become “addicted” to the Covid crisis. The press especially (and a few on here too) cannot move on…We have to learn to live with it, accept we are not going to eradicate it and for the love of dog stop testing.

Unfortunately that’s unlikely so we will be under yet another lockdown in 3-5 weeks.
		
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Totally agree. Covid is not going away, we just need to adapt and live with it.

I was a slave to the figures for a long time, initially finding them frightening but now more a matter of interest. 

My life is not really all that different to how it was two years ago, with the exception of foreign travel. I am now used to the changes at home and have learned to accept them.

At some point I’ll bite the bullet and take a holiday abroad, but not just yet.


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Totally agree. Covid is not going away, we just need to adapt and live with it.

I was a slave to the figures for a long time, initially finding them frightening but now more a matter of interest.

My life is not really all that different to how it was two years ago, with the exception of foreign travel. I am now used to the changes at home and have learned to accept them.

At some point I’ll bite the bullet and take a holiday abroad, but not just yet.
		
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It’s the foreign travel that’s the biggest issue for us. Two g’children, one 8 months old and one 6 months old that we’ve not seen yet.

We eat out at least once a week, always at a venue with outdoor seating. And we don’t go in somewhere that is rammed or has lots of pink/red people visiting.

Too few years left to sit at the back of the cave - life’s for living, not existing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes I get the feeling it’s never going to end, too many people have become “addicted” to the Covid crisis. The press especially (and a few on here too) cannot move on…We have to learn to live with it, accept we are not going to eradicate it and for the love of dog stop testing.

Unfortunately that’s unlikely so we will be under yet another lockdown in 3-5 weeks.
		
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Billysboots said:



			Totally agree. Covid is not going away, we just need to adapt and live with it.

I was a slave to the figures for a long time, initially finding them frightening but now more a matter of interest.

My life is not really all that different to how it was two years ago, with the exception of foreign travel. I am now used to the changes at home and have learned to accept them.

At some point I’ll bite the bullet and take a holiday abroad, but not just yet.
		
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Hobbit said:



			It’s the foreign travel that’s the biggest issue for us. Two g’children, one 8 months old and one 6 months old that we’ve not seen yet.

We eat out at least once a week, always at a venue with outdoor seating. And we don’t go in somewhere that is rammed or has lots of pink/red people visiting.

Too few years left to sit at the back of the cave - life’s for living, not existing.
		
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I’d like to be were you are all at, I want to be were you are all at, but as much as (fingers crossed) I’m fit and healthy and no known underlying health conditions, my wife and son are both extremely vulnerable and none of us feel confident enough for them to return to normal, apart from hosp appts, my wife hasn’t left the house for 18 months.

I’m not suggesting for one minute the world stops for the extremely vulnerable and for 20yrs we’ve lived our life with known risk, but this is still relatively new and it is the unknowns causing the problems.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Yes I get the feeling it’s never going to end, too many people have become “addicted” to the Covid crisis. The press especially (and a few on here too) cannot move on…We have to learn to live with it, accept we are not going to eradicate it and for the love of dog stop testing.

Unfortunately that’s unlikely so we will be under yet another lockdown in 3-5 weeks.
		
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It will end, but not if only half-arsed attempts to kill it off are taken and then reversed into street parties for Covid. Plenty of countries, mostly in Asia where people do what theiy are told to do, have had a tiny fraction of the death and hospitalisation rate we have had here, and are now back to near normal.

Unfortunately the tone was set at the outset with delayed, weak and poorly enforced regulations, and some major gaps missed completely. Vaccination is softening the current case and death rates, but we should never have been in this place to begin with. Autumn 2020 was the chance to effectively act, and it was not taken, and the rest has been downhill with no immediate end in prospect. Another lockdown is coming, so what exactly are we giving Delta a free run first?

Learning to live with it means accepting large numbers of hospitalisations, long-standing complications and some deaths. As long as the NHS doesn't collapse, bring it on, Delta! seems to be the policy.

No civilised society should allow that. Apart from anything else, it will only prolong the whole thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

looks like there are some “pilot” schemes to allow the bypass of isolation - interesting they have come to light now and suddenly available for select few 

Bet all those businesses that suffered with employees who were pinged with track and trace would have loved to have been part of rhe “pilot” scheme


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## SteveW86 (Jul 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			looks like there are some “pilot” schemes to allow the bypass of isolation - interesting they have come to light now and suddenly available for select few

Bet all those businesses that suffered with employees who were pinged with track and trace would have loved to have been part of rhe “pilot” scheme
		
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It now seems that the selected business for the pilot have changed their mind and will be isolating like the rest of us.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			It now seems that the selected business for the pilot have changed their mind and will be isolating like the rest of us.
		
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And so they should - I can’t believe they are that cut off they don’t have a clue about the feeling of the country about the virus.

Have to say well done to the London Mayor for ensuring face masks are mandatory on public transport


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## SteveW86 (Jul 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And so they should - I can’t believe they are that cut off they don’t have a clue about the feeling of the country about the virus.

Have to say well done to the London Mayor for ensuring face masks are mandatory on public transport
		
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Just shows how self centred they are.

Would be interesting if all the big supermarkets took the stance that you need to wear a mask to get in.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			looks like there are some “pilot” schemes to allow the bypass of isolation - interesting they have come to light now and suddenly available for select few

Bet all those businesses that suffered with employees who were pinged with track and trace would have loved to have been part of rhe “pilot” scheme
		
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Initially it was said that the people concerned were randomly allocated to the daily testing group rather than the self isolation group. Now they say they have changed their mind and will self isolate. In all my years of running clinical trials, I have never heard of one which allowed subjects randomised to one group to elect to switch to the other.

It is almost as if it isn't really a trial at all and is just a vehicle to allow important and self-important people to swerve the guidelines that the rest of us are expected to adhere to.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I’d like to be were you are all at, I want to be were you are all at, but as much as (fingers crossed) I’m fit and healthy and no known underlying health conditions, my wife and son are both extremely vulnerable and none of us feel confident enough for them to return to normal, apart from hosp appts, my wife hasn’t left the house for 18 months.

I’m not suggesting for one minute the world stops for the extremely vulnerable and for 20yrs we’ve lived our life with known risk, but this is still relatively new and it is the unknowns causing the problems.
		
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I understand completely, (like you I have a vulnerable wife) and everyone has to make their own judgment. Travelling on the London Underground I would always wear a mask but that’s if I’m standing face to armpit with people but I think we need to focus less on the virus and more on returning the country to normal.


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## larmen (Jul 18, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Just shows how self centred they are.

Would be interesting if all the big supermarkets took the stance that you need to wear a mask to get in.
		
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They haven’t enforced it for ages now, why would they now mandate it to not enforce it further?


To be fair, it’s not down to chains but more down to locality/area. At least in my opinion. I hated my local Morrison’s with passion but on holiday in Cornwall their Morrison’s was amazing. All pre pandemic, of course.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2021)

Just seen on the BBC that this trial that Boris tried to use is going to be rolled out to certain government departments 

I'm guessing basically key workers as network rail, tfl, Heathrow border force all be listed so far even tho we are awaiting official confirmation

Sounds a great idea at first but when that first person gets a ping then comes in you know your going to feel uneasy 

Also I saw somewhere else you can come to work but nowhere else ..how many people will stick to that?

7 negative tests and your free


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Just seen on the BBC that this trial that Boris tried to use is going to be rolled out to certain government departments

I'm guessing basically key workers as network rail, tfl, Heathrow border force all be listed so far even tho we are awaiting official confirmation

Sounds a great idea at first but when that first person gets a ping then comes in you know your going to feel uneasy

Also I saw somewhere else you can come to work but nowhere else ..how many people will stick to that?

7 negative tests and your free
		
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Turns out its untrue .. goodness sake why make this up


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## chrisd (Jul 18, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			You're probably better off asking @chrisd. He's lived through both so can give first hand knowledge. 




Sorry Chris, couldn't resist.
		
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Dozy sod!

I said I once flew to Spain, nothing to do with Spanish flu


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Just shows how self centred they are.

Would be interesting if all the big supermarkets took the stance that you need to wear a mask to get in.
		
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I’m hoping all the public transports and shopping centres etc and in fact anything inside should stay as masks as mandatory


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## Dando (Jul 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I’m hoping all the public transports and shopping centres etc and in fact anything inside should stay as masks as mandatory
		
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Can’t wait to be stuck on a roasting hot train wearing a mask.


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Dozy sod!

I said I once flew to Spain, nothing to do with Spanish flu
		
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On a Zeppelin?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

Dando said:



			Can’t wait to be stuck on a roasting hot train wearing a mask.
		
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More comfortable than the ones they wear in ICU.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

This current go-to phrase 'We've got to learn to live with it' concerns me.  What exactly do we have to learn to live with, rampaging infection rates, loved ones seriously ill or dead, NHS overloaded so non Covid treatments and Ops are postponed further, vulnerable people having to lock themselves away and live in fear, people having long term organ damage and failure.  Wow!  Sounds a hoot and what's the pay off for all this, the pleasure of sitting on a tram or bus, shopping, crowding at the bar of a pub, almost anything you want to do with no mask or social distance.   And so the ship of fools sail on.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 18, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			On a Zeppelin?
		
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He got a lift with the Wright brothers.


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## larmen (Jul 18, 2021)

Learning to live with it.
Ignoring that it exists or living in a way to mitigate the spread and impact?


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			This current go-to phrase 'We've got to learn to live with it' concerns me.  What exactly do we have to learn to live with, rampaging infection rates, loved ones seriously ill or dead, NHS overloaded so non Covid treatments and Ops are postponed further, vulnerable people having to lock themselves away and live in fear, people having long term organ damage and failure.  Wow!  Sounds a hoot and what's the pay off for all this, the pleasure of sitting on a tram or bus, shopping, crowding at the bar of a pub, almost anything you want to do with no mask or social distance.   And so the ship of fools sail on.
		
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We’ve learned to live with measles, German measles, chickenpox, typhoid, cholera and polio. And with hard work, eradicated smallpox. It didn’t happen overnight and, sadly, there will be casualties but learn to live with it we will.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

I hate that stupid expression 'learn to live with it'. It means absolutely everything and nothing from 'I no longer give a toss about case or death numbers, so let the virus rip' to 'We are never going to suppress this entirely, but we need to make sure it is controlled to a level where morbidity is very low'. Right now, I think we are closer to the first of those than the second.

Could anybody using it explain what exactly they mean?


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I hate that stupid expression 'learn to live with it'. It means absolutely everything and nothing from 'I no longer give a toss about case or death numbers, so let the virus rip' to 'We are never going to suppress this entirely, but we need to make sure it is controlled to a level where morbidity is very low'. Right now, I think we are closer to the first of those than the second.

Could anybody using it explain what exactly they mean?
		
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Do we not have to "learn to live" because it's been so mismanaged that right now there is nothing left we can do

I mean how much longer can the restrictions go on before more and more people just out and out ignore them?


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Do we not have to "learn to live" because it's been so mismanaged that right now there is nothing left we can do

I mean how much longer can the restrictions go on before more and more people just out and out ignore them?
		
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Well, I agree that we could have done a lot better and bad decisions were made, but the part that I dislike about 'learn to live' is that it implies slowing down or backing off as if there was a negotiation possible with Covid. It doesn't work like that. It will keep going if there are people it can infect, and given some time, it will come back for another go-around. Learning to live with it usually includes some more bad decisions.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, I agree that we could have done a lot better and bad decisions were made, but the part that I dislike about 'learn to live' is that it implies slowing down or backing off as if there was a negotiation possible with Covid. It doesn't work like that. It will keep going if there are people it can infect, and given some time, it will come back for another go-around. Learning to live with it usually includes some more bad decisions.
		
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Without getting political , bad decisions at the start and during mean that we can't really do much else now because who's going to comply? I mean don't get me wrong people will but so many won't 

If it had been from day one full lockdown proper enforced then if you isolate full pay so nobody is out of pocket isolating making people more likely to do what's right then maybe we would have more of a handle 

But the half way house we have had to try and save the economy whilst controlling covid have A cost us more than a proper lockdown and payment system and B cost more life's


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We’ve learned to live with measles, German measles, chickenpox, typhoid, cholera and polio. And with hard work, eradicated smallpox. It didn’t happen overnight and, sadly, there will be casualties but learn to live with it we will.
		
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I agree, we will learn to live with it when we have it under control but that's not now.  I grew up in an era where people had measles, chicken pox and polio, they weren't pandemics though, we lived with them because they weren't ripping through the population and nackering the health service.  What we are experiencing now is something unseen for a hundred years.   If anyone thinks we can just ignore it and get on with it without serious consequences then good luck with that one.


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## bobmac (Jul 18, 2021)

I think the people who developed such a brilliant range of vaccines did a fantastic job.

Deaths within 28 days of positive test by date of death......


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I hate that stupid expression 'learn to live with it'. It means absolutely everything and nothing from 'I no longer give a toss about case or death numbers, so let the virus rip' to 'We are never going to suppress this entirely, but we need to make sure it is controlled to a level where morbidity is very low'. Right now, I think we are closer to the first of those than the second.

Could anybody using it explain what exactly they mean?
		
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The government are doing the right thing.  The country needs to be fully opened up now, anyone who is worried can take action to protect themselves, Hands Face Space, no one will say ‘take your mask off’ or ‘why are you washing your hands’

We boast about our “successful” vaccine drive…what’s the point if nothing changes?


My understanding now is that if you had both jabs it in no way stops you getting the virus. It just stops you from dying in most cases now.
The government have weighed up the risks and made the decision to push some out of the front door.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			The government are doing the right thing.  The country needs to be fully opened up now, anyone who is worried can take action to protect themselves, Hands Face Space, no one will say ‘take your mask off’ or ‘why are you washing your hands’

We boast about our “successful” vaccine drive…what’s the point if nothing changes?


My understanding now is that if you had both jabs it in no way stops you getting the virus. It just stops you from dying in most cases now.
The government have weighed up the risks and made the decision to push some out of the front door.
		
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If you're the only person walking up a road where everyone else is walking down it you may stop and wonder why.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If you're the only person walking up a road where everyone else is walking down it you may stop and wonder why.
		
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I’m not sure I get your point. The vast majority of people want to end the restrictions.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			The government are doing the right thing.  The country needs to be fully opened up now, anyone who is worried can take action to protect themselves, Hands Face Space, no one will say ‘take your mask off’ or ‘why are you washing your hands’

We boast about our “successful” vaccine drive…what’s the point if nothing changes?


My understanding now is that if you had both jabs it in no way stops you getting the virus. It just stops you from dying in most cases now.
The government have weighed up the risks and made the decision to push some out of the front door.
		
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Masks are actually to protect others more than to protect yourself. I bet you some morons will say exactly that stuff to people wearing them, starting tomorrow morning. 

Requiring people on public transport to wear masks has no effect on opening up the country. It might stop it being closed down again in a few weeks. 

It is reported that the Govt wanted to keep masks b ut did not want to have to reply on opposition support to pass it, so they dropped it. That strongly suggests scientific advice was to keep masks and various statements by relevant people since confirm this. 

The vaccine drive has been successful but not enough have been vaccinated to simultaneously abandon a load of regulations at once. There was an opportunity for a measured and. careful relaxation, but the Govt has gone too far, mostly out of political cowardice.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m not sure I get your point. The vast majority of people want to end the restrictions.
		
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Really?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m not sure I get your point. The vast majority of people want to end the restrictions.
		
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Do they ? That would surprise me 

I suspect there are some that want restrictions to end but “vast majority”  - I’m not sure about that


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



Really?

Click to expand...

I myself have said that I would wear a mask on the tube but I support the end of restrictions, and do you really think this populist government would be lifting restrictions if it didn’t have support?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I’m not sure I get your point. The vast majority of people want to end the restrictions.
		
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Do you really think so?
Look at other countries, how many of them are.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I myself have said that I would wear a mask on the tube but I support the end of restrictions, and do you really think this populist government would be lifting restrictions if it didn’t have support?
		
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Yes.  It depends who wants it.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I myself have said that I would wear a mask on the tube but I support the end of restrictions, and do you really think this populist government would be lifting restrictions if it didn’t have support?
		
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Support from backbenchers and key cronies and media outlets seems more important than anybody else. They don't have anything like support in health and medicine sectors and it seems fairly clear Whitty has serious reservations. A lot of people, myself included, are quite concerned about how it is going to go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I myself have said that I would wear a mask on the tube but I support the end of restrictions, and do you really think this populist government would be lifting restrictions if it didn’t have support?
		
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They wanted to keep face masks and social distancing but the back benchers wouldn’t support them - this current government doesn’t have a clue what the people in the country want - London maybe but not the whole country


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Support from backbenchers and key cronies and media outlets seems more important than anybody else. They don't have anything like support in health and medicine sectors and it seems fairly clear Whitty has serious reservations. A lot of people, myself included, are quite concerned about how it is going to go.
		
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I'll be pleased to stand corrected if it ends well.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I'll be pleased to stand corrected if it ends well.
		
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Me too.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

It’s not going to “end well” is it. The obsession with testing will ensure the numbers remain high. 

Although It will be interesting when the season changes and we see just how effective the “vaccination” really is.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s not going to “end well” is it. The obsession with testing will ensure the numbers remain high.

Although It will be interesting when the season changes and we see just how effective the “vaccination” really is.
		
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But these tests catch cases without symptoms which could infect others so pushes down numbers long term


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## GaryK (Jul 18, 2021)

I fear that the lifting of restrictions is a bad idea - I mean, haven't they already been lifted? You'd of thought so the way many people are now behaving and number of infections is going up.....FAST!

Those who have had the 2 jabs can rest easy knowing that they are less likely to get seriously ill or die if they become infected. BUT [Ethan, help me out here], what happens when the virus starts mutating and changes to the extent that the vaccines provide very little or no protection? I'm sure that I read somewhere that the AZ vaccine doesn't protect against the latest strain.

I believe that there will be the need for another lockdown, and if so, the next one should be the toughest, mother of all lockdowns if we are ever going to stand a chance of beating this. I know it sounds harsh, but a complete zero tolerance approach such as no mask, no entry. Yes, that would be tough on those that legitimately cannot wear one, but I'm afraid that far too many people have taken the P over the past 18 months. Ignoring the rules should result in sever action - even if that means setting up Covid camps. If you don't want to wear a mask, or socially distance, or think of others' welfare, then you're more than welcome to go live with like minded people.....away from those that act responsibly. But what about Human Rights? I hear you cry.....Covid doesn't care about Human Rights. There are far too many people not toeing the line and that is partly why we are where we are today.

Alternatively, let's go back to normal and learn to live (or die) with it.


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## RichA (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s not going to “end well” is it. The obsession with testing will ensure the numbers remain high.

Although It will be interesting when the season changes and we see just how effective the “vaccination” really is.
		
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Like many millions of others, I do a couple of lateral flow tests every week. If I'm visiting my elderly father, I want to know I'm probably not going to infect him. Likewise my mother-in-law. Likewise any stranger on a train or in a shop who may be vulnerable without realising it. 
It's not an obsession and I can't see how anyone could conceive it as negative behaviour. 
On public transport tomorrow, I'll be wearing a mask with filters and will continue to do so, to protect myself, those I love and others I don't know. 
It just seems like common sense and common courtesy until tens of thousands of people a day aren't getting infected.
I'll carry on the same way as long as learning to live with it equals learning to live with seeing people dying from it. 
Maybe those with a more cavalier attitude haven't known as many people get long term sick or die as others have.


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## road2ruin (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Masks are actually to protect others more than to protect yourself. I bet you some morons will say exactly that stuff to people wearing them, starting tomorrow morning.

Requiring people on public transport to wear masks has no effect on opening up the country. It might stop it being closed down again in a few weeks.

It is reported that the Govt wanted to keep masks b ut did not want to have to reply on opposition support to pass it, so they dropped it. That strongly suggests scientific advice was to keep masks and various statements by relevant people since confirm this.

The vaccine drive has been successful but not enough have been vaccinated to simultaneously abandon a load of regulations at once. There was an opportunity for a measured and. careful relaxation, but the Govt has gone too far, mostly out of political cowardice.
		
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What about the member of SAGE who came out and said that cloth masks are a complete waste of time a ‘safety blanket’ as the size of the virus are far smaller than the size of the holes in a cloth mask which the vast majority wear. Surely if masks are to be kept then at least have people wearing something that will do some sort of job.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 18, 2021)

I wrote a day or so ago that my daughters partner, a Bobby has now had to isolate for the 3rd time since Xmas, Because he deals with the unpleasant side of society. I was bloody livid reading that our beloved prime minister and  chancellor, didn’t have to isolate having come into contact with the health secretary. (Not the one that’s been not been keeping a 2 m distance 😉).  Cause they were in some king of a trial where you get tested every day.
it now appears that our beloved prime minister and others have done another U turn because of the backlash. Just staring facts. But am so close to a rant. And impending fraction 🤬


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			What about the member of SAGE who came out and said that cloth masks are a complete waste of time a ‘safety blanket’ as the size of the virus are far smaller than the size of the holes in a cloth mask which the vast majority wear. Surely if masks are to be kept then at least have people wearing something that will do some sort of job.
		
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You can’t expect people to look after themselves now and wear something for their own protection. 
Who would they shame and blame then?


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## fundy (Jul 18, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I wrote a day or so ago that my daughters partner, a Bobby has now had to isolate for the 3rd time since Xmas, Because he deals with the unpleasant side of society. I was bloody livid reading that our beloved prime minister and  chancellor, didn’t have to isolate having come into contact with the health secretary. (Not the one that’s been not been keeping a 2 m distance 😉).  Cause they were in some king of a trial where you get tested every day.
it now appears that our beloved prime minister and others have done another U turn because of the backlash. Just staring facts. But am so close to a rant. And impending fraction 🤬
		
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youll be fine, plenty of others have made their views clear without infractions  seems theyre fair game


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## Beezerk (Jul 18, 2021)

Results back already, positive.
So much for fever, cough and loss of taste as the main symptoms, mine started with a bit of a sore throat and the odd sneeze just like a normal cold.
If you Google for covid symptoms after two jabs it comes up exactly what I have


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Results back already, positive.
So much for fever, cough and loss of taste as the main symptoms, mine started with a bit of a sore throat and the odd sneeze just like a normal cold.
If you Google for covid symptoms after two jabs it comes up exactly what I have 

Click to expand...

GWS Martyn


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## fundy (Jul 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Results back already, positive.
So much for fever, cough and loss of taste as the main symptoms, mine started with a bit of a sore throat and the odd sneeze just like a normal cold.
If you Google for covid symptoms after two jabs it comes up exactly what I have 

Click to expand...


been a few posts about it recently, take a look at tim spector of zoe re symptoms, and get well soon


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## Beezerk (Jul 18, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			GWS Martyn
		
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"Googles GWS"


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Results back already, positive.
So much for fever, cough and loss of taste as the main symptoms, mine started with a bit of a sore throat and the odd sneeze just like a normal cold.
If you Google for covid symptoms after two jabs it comes up exactly what I have 

Click to expand...

Gutted for you 

I know multiple people with the same symptoms as you and have tested posted hence that picture I put up - hence why you were spot on to get a PCR 

I have also had the same symptoms but have come back negative - doctor said I have bad hay fever, there is also a bug going around


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## fundy (Jul 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gutted for you 

I know multiple people with the same symptoms as you and have tested posted hence that picture I put up - hence why you were spot on to get a PCR 

I have also had the same symptoms but have come back negative - doctor said I have bad hay fever, there is also a bug going around
		
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assumed i have been suffering worse than normal from hayfever here too


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s not going to “end well” is it. *The obsession with testing will ensure the numbers remain high.*

Although It will be interesting when the season changes and we see just how effective the “vaccination” really is.
		
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Is it best not to know ?


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## Beezerk (Jul 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Gutted for you

I know multiple people with the same symptoms as you and have tested posted hence that picture I put up - hence why you were spot on to get a PCR

I have also had the same symptoms but have come back negative - doctor said I have bad hay fever, there is also a bug going around
		
Click to expand...

Got to be honest, this afternoon I was convinced I'd dropped a clanger as it just felt a bit like hay fever, snotty nose, itchy eyes etc.
We were supposed to be going away to Ambleside this coming weekend for some nice food and a bit of walking, gutted we'll have to cancel but I'm sure there are people out there in a much worse place than us.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s not going to “end well” is it. The obsession with testing will ensure the numbers remain high.

Although It will be interesting when the season changes and we see just how effective the “vaccination” really is.
		
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What do the quotation marks around vaccination mean? They are vaccines, they are effective under current conditions.

The most serious challenge to the efficacy of the vaccines could occur if cases are allowed to rise fast in a population which has only been partly vaccinated, thus creating evolutionary pressure on the virus to evolve new and more effective variants. Oh, poo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 18, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Got to be honest, this afternoon I was convinced I'd dropped a clanger as it just felt a bit like hay fever, snotty nose, itchy eyes etc.
We were supposed to be going away to Ambleside this coming weekend for some nice food and a bit of walking, gutted we'll have to cancel but I'm sure there are people in a much worse place than me.
		
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Lots of people have been in your situation it seems - even my daughter was the same , I still have to persuade myself that we came back negative


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			What about the member of SAGE who came out and said that cloth masks are a complete waste of time a ‘safety blanket’ as the size of the virus are far smaller than the size of the holes in a cloth mask which the vast majority wear. Surely if masks are to be kept then at least have people wearing something that will do some sort of job.
		
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I recently posted a scientific research paper that tested the effects of wearing standard face masks.  It showed that they reduce the projection of both aerosol and droplet particles by a high amount.

Here it is:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91487-7#Fig1


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## Tashyboy (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			What do the quotation marks around vaccination mean? They are vaccines, they are effective under current conditions.

*The most serious challenge to the efficacy of the vaccines could occur if cases are allowed to rise fast in a population which has only been partly vaccinated,* thus creating evolutionary pressure on the virus to evolve new and more effective variants. Oh, poo.
		
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If that’s the case, With a third of London’s adults not being vaccinated, it  could be bad for London ☹️


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## road2ruin (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I recently posted a scientific research paper that tested the effects of wearing standard face masks.  It showed that they reduce the projection of both aerosol and droplet particles by a high amount.
		
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And this was a member of SAGE saying completely the opposite about standard cloth masks. Surely goes to prove that the spread of Covid is stopped by contact which is essentially working from home in most cases and not a face mask. 

Have you looked at the Danish study which is one of the biggest into the efficacy of face masks, essentially says that the ones that most of the public use are useless.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I recently posted a scientific research paper that tested the effects of wearing standard face masks.  It showed that they reduce the projection of both aerosol and droplet particles by a high amount.
		
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Indeed, nothing to see here. If people wear a crochet mask, not going to be much good. Don't need a paper in Nature to know that. 

Masks are on a spectrum between useless and nothing shall pass. Most of the retail ones are OK, somewhere in the middle, not a panacea but offering a decent effect. Part of a broader picture of non-pharmacological interventions including social distancing and hand washing.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			If that’s the case, With a third of London’s adults not being vaccinated, it  could be bad for London ☹️
		
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If it is bad for London, it is bad for everybody else. The virus doesn't need a railcard to get around the country pdq.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			And this was a member of SAGE saying completely the opposite about standard cloth masks. Surely goes to prove that the spread of Covid is stopped by contact which is essentially working from home in most cases and not a face mask. 

Have you looked at the Danish study which is one of the biggest into the efficacy of face masks, essentially says that the ones that most of the public use are useless.
		
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Here it is, take a read, it's examining standard surgical masks. If it's a bit long read the conclusion.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91487-7#Fig1


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## road2ruin (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Here it is, take a read, it's examining standard surgical masks. If it's a bit long read the conclusion.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91487-7#Fig1

Click to expand...

I read it the first time you posted it and I have no issues bar the fact that the majority don’t wear standard surgical masks. I am talking about the usage of cloth masks which is the vast majority of those who wear them.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I read it the first time you posted it and I have no issues bar the fact that the majority don’t wear standard surgical masks. I am talking about the usage of cloth masks which is the vast majority of those who wear them.
		
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You didn't say that.  As Ethan suggested, most reasonable commercial ones are fairly good, ok there are some that are rubbish but it's not an argument to suggest wearing masks is a waste of time. Along with social distancing and hand cleansing they are a fair barrier against virus spread.


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## road2ruin (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You didn't say that.  As Ethan suggested, most reasonable commercial ones are fairly good, ok there are some that are rubbish but it's not an argument to suggest wearing masks is a waste of time. Along with social distancing and hand cleansing they are a fair barrier against virus spread.
		
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I’m talking about cloth face masks which are worn by the majority of people I see, I myself am included in that number. The washable ones that are meant to be reused. They’ve been proved to be practically useless so if there is guidance to use face masks surely it should specify a type otherwise it’s just a waste of time. This is from a member of SAGE in the last 24 hours so isn’t an argument of mask vs no mask it’s a fact that certain types of mask offer no benefit over not wearing one.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 18, 2021)

some more comments about the effectiveness or not of masks. The science is very far from conclusive it seems

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...pread/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


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## larmen (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The most serious challenge to the efficacy of the vaccines could occur if cases are allowed to rise fast in a population which has only been partly vaccinated, thus creating evolutionary pressure on the virus to evolve new and more effective variants. Oh, poo.
		
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If we are concerned about variants we have to tackle it globally. Keeping infections down here, which we still must do, is not affecting world wide variants.

Then you have the issue of 40(?) million Americans not wanting to be vaccinated because if they take it then Biden wins. Billions of poor people that can’t afford it.

What you have written before, updated vaccines year after year building enough immunity, that’s probable where we have to get to.
I just hope we get there carefully.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m talking about cloth face masks which are worn by the majority of people I see, I myself am included in that number. The washable ones that are meant to be reused. They’ve been proved to be practically useless so if there is guidance to use face masks surely it should specify a type otherwise it’s just a waste of time. This is from a member of SAGE in the last 24 hours so isn’t an argument of mask vs no mask it’s a fact that certain types of mask offer no benefit over not wearing one.
		
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I still disagree. It's not the size of the virus particle that's the issue but the vehicle that carries it forward and it's velocity.  Wearing any reasonable mask will defuse the force of breath carrying the virus.  Try blowing out the candles on a birthday cake while wearing any reasonable face mask.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it best not to know ?
		
Click to expand...

Since the fact that catching the thing now probably means, worst case scenario, taking a day or two off work to get over it. Then where is the positive in knowing?


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## Hobbit (Jul 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m talking about cloth face masks which are worn by the majority of people I see, I myself am included in that number. The washable ones that are meant to be reused. They’ve been proved to be practically useless so if there is guidance to use face masks surely it should specify a type otherwise it’s just a waste of time. This is from a member of SAGE in the last 24 hours so isn’t an argument of mask vs no mask it’s a fact that certain types of mask offer no benefit over not wearing one.
		
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If you know cloth ones are useless, why do you use one? Do you need guidance in which one to wear if you know which ones are useless? Or is it just a cop out on your part?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			What do the quotation marks around vaccination mean? They are vaccines, they are effective under current conditions.

The most serious challenge to the efficacy of the vaccines could occur if cases are allowed to rise fast in a population which has only been partly vaccinated, thus creating evolutionary pressure on the virus to evolve new and more effective variants. Oh, poo.
		
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Feel free to explain why a medical experiment which does not stop you getting the disease, does not prevent transmission and does not prevent re-infection can be described as a “vaccine”?


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## road2ruin (Jul 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I still disagree. It's not the size of the virus particle that's the issue but the vehicle that carries it forward and it's velocity.  Wearing any reasonable mask will defuse the force of breath carrying the virus.  Try blowing out the candles on a birthday cake while wearing any reasonable face mask.
		
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But the member of SAGE commenting today on cloth masks would disagree with you?

He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 500,000 times the size of viral Covid particles.

“The small sizes are not easily understood but an imperfect analogy would be to imagine marbles fired at builders’ scaffolding, some might hit a pole and rebound, but obviously most will fly through,”


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## road2ruin (Jul 18, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			If you know cloth ones are useless, why do you use one? Do you need guidance in which one to wear if you know which ones are useless? Or is it just a cop out on your part?
		
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I’m asked to wear a mask so I do so. I don’t believe if them and the science is very much split with regards their efficacy, it’s not black or white.


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## Ethan (Jul 18, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Feel free to explain why a medical experiment which does not stop you getting the disease, does not prevent transmission and does not prevent re-infection can be described as a “vaccine”?
		
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Short version - the word vaccine does not mean 100% effective but Covid vaccines, even AZ, are better than most. They stop most people getting the disease, or getting a sever form, and also most people transmitting or getting a second infection. Plenty of data on that, it is not a matter of opinion. 

So, any thoughts on new variants emerging if the population and their Govt gets reckless?


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## Hobbit (Jul 19, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m asked to wear a mask so I do so. I don’t believe if them and the science is very much split with regards their efficacy, it’s not black or white.
		
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There’s more than enough hard data on nuclei size, including when the virus is carried on droplets from coughs and sneezes, to indicate the efficacy of different masks. using the data below, if you walked into a Covid rich environment the mask could filter over 90% of the virus. You could still catch it but, importantly, the viral load would be massively reduced.

You choose not to believe the data because it suits what you want to believe. That’s absolutely your choice. I prefer to wear a seat belt because it might save my life. It’s not guaranteed but it’s better then chancing it, and the data supports that choice.

N95 masks are designed to remove more than 95% of all particles that are at least 0.3 microns (µm) in diameter. In fact, measurements of the particle filtration efficiency of N95 masks show that they are capable of filtering ≈99.8% of particles with a diameter of ≈0.1 μm (Rengasamy et al., 2017). SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter, so N95 masks are capable of filtering most free virions, but they do more than that. How so? Viruses are often transmitted through respiratory droplets produced by coughing and sneezing. Respiratory droplets are usually divided into two size bins, large droplets (>5 μm in diameter) that fall rapidly to the ground and are thus transmitted only over short distances, and small droplets (≤5 μm in diameter). Small droplets can evaporate into 'droplet nuclei', remain suspended in air for significant periods of time and could be inhaled. Some viruses, such as measles, can be transmitted by droplet nuclei (Tellier et al., 2019). Larger droplets are also known to transmit viruses, usually by settling onto surfaces that are touched and transported by hands onto mucosal membranes such as the eyes, nose and mouth (CDC, 2020). The characteristic diameter of large droplets produced by sneezing is ~100 μm (Han et al., 2013), while the diameter of droplet nuclei produced by coughing is on the order of ~1 μm (Yang et al., 2007). At present, it is unclear whether surfaces or air are the dominant mode of SARS-CoV-2 transmission, but N95 masks should provide some protection against both (Jefferson et al., 2009; Leung et al., 2020).


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## Kellfire (Jul 19, 2021)

Well I got pinged for the first time by the app so I’m working from home until Thursday as well as doing daily LFTs. Can’t say I’m too sad about that in this mini heat wave.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			There’s more than enough hard data on nuclei size, including when the virus is carried on droplets from coughs and sneezes, to indicate the efficacy of different masks. using the data below, if you walked into a Covid rich environment the mask could filter over 90% of the virus. You could still catch it but, importantly, the viral load would be massively reduced.

You choose not to believe the data because it suits what you want to believe. That’s absolutely your choice. I prefer to wear a seat belt because it might save my life. It’s not guaranteed but it’s better then chancing it, and the data supports that choice.

N95 masks are designed to remove more than 95% of all particles that are at least 0.3 microns (µm) in diameter. In fact, measurements of the particle filtration efficiency of N95 masks show that they are capable of filtering ≈99.8% of particles with a diameter of ≈0.1 μm (Rengasamy et al., 2017). SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter, so N95 masks are capable of filtering most free virions, but they do more than that. How so? Viruses are often transmitted through respiratory droplets produced by coughing and sneezing. Respiratory droplets are usually divided into two size bins, large droplets (>5 μm in diameter) that fall rapidly to the ground and are thus transmitted only over short distances, and small droplets (≤5 μm in diameter). Small droplets can evaporate into 'droplet nuclei', remain suspended in air for significant periods of time and could be inhaled. Some viruses, such as measles, can be transmitted by droplet nuclei (Tellier et al., 2019). Larger droplets are also known to transmit viruses, usually by settling onto surfaces that are touched and transported by hands onto mucosal membranes such as the eyes, nose and mouth (CDC, 2020). The characteristic diameter of large droplets produced by sneezing is ~100 μm (Han et al., 2013), while the diameter of droplet nuclei produced by coughing is on the order of ~1 μm (Yang et al., 2007). At present, it is unclear whether surfaces or air are the dominant mode of SARS-CoV-2 transmission, but N95 masks should provide some protection against both (Jefferson et al., 2009; Leung et al., 2020).
		
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Excellent post. I hope, although wouldn't bet my lunch money on it, that should put this matter to rest now.


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			There’s more than enough hard data on nuclei size, including when the virus is carried on droplets from coughs and sneezes, to indicate the efficacy of different masks. using the data below, if you walked into a Covid rich environment the mask could filter over 90% of the virus. You could still catch it but, importantly, the viral load would be massively reduced.

You choose not to believe the data because it suits what you want to believe. That’s absolutely your choice. I prefer to wear a seat belt because it might save my life. It’s not guaranteed but it’s better then chancing it, and the data supports that choice.

N95 masks are designed to remove more than 95% of all particles that are at least 0.3 microns (µm) in diameter. In fact, measurements of the particle filtration efficiency of N95 masks show that they are capable of filtering ≈99.8% of particles with a diameter of ≈0.1 μm (Rengasamy et al., 2017). SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter, so N95 masks are capable of filtering most free virions, but they do more than that. How so? Viruses are often transmitted through respiratory droplets produced by coughing and sneezing. Respiratory droplets are usually divided into two size bins, large droplets (>5 μm in diameter) that fall rapidly to the ground and are thus transmitted only over short distances, and small droplets (≤5 μm in diameter). Small droplets can evaporate into 'droplet nuclei', remain suspended in air for significant periods of time and could be inhaled. Some viruses, such as measles, can be transmitted by droplet nuclei (Tellier et al., 2019). Larger droplets are also known to transmit viruses, usually by settling onto surfaces that are touched and transported by hands onto mucosal membranes such as the eyes, nose and mouth (CDC, 2020). The characteristic diameter of large droplets produced by sneezing is ~100 μm (Han et al., 2013), while the diameter of droplet nuclei produced by coughing is on the order of ~1 μm (Yang et al., 2007). At present, it is unclear whether surfaces or air are the dominant mode of SARS-CoV-2 transmission, but N95 masks should provide some protection against both (Jefferson et al., 2009; Leung et al., 2020).
		
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I'm not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse or whether it's just an early start on a Monday morning however you are completely missing my point. If you take a moment to go back and have a read you will see that I have, at no point, said that all masks do not work. I have said that *CLOTH MASKS* do not work and this was based on SAGE adviser Colin Axon:

_Standard face coverings are just "comfort blankets" that do little to reduce the spread of Covid particles, a scientist advising Sage on ventilation has said.

Dr Colin Axon, who has advised the government on minimising the risk of cross-infection in supermarkets, accused medics of presenting a "cartoonish" view of how how tiny particles travel through the air.

He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 500,000 times the size of viral Covid particles._

As you can see, this isn't Dr Steve from Facebook this is from someone qualified to comment. 

Your post giving the information on N95 mask is all very interesting and is probably correct but again it is completely irrelevant in proving me wrong as your using a different mask and it's efficacy as a completely different example, some might say to suit your argument and point of view.


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## Hobbit (Jul 19, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse or whether it's just an early start on a Monday morning however you are completely missing my point. If you take a moment to go back and have a read you will see that I have, at no point, said that all masks do not work. I have said that *CLOTH MASKS* do not work and this was based on SAGE adviser Colin Axon:

_Standard face coverings are just "comfort blankets" that do little to reduce the spread of Covid particles, a scientist advising Sage on ventilation has said._

_Dr Colin Axon, who has advised the government on minimising the risk of cross-infection in supermarkets, accused medics of presenting a "cartoonish" view of how how tiny particles travel through the air._

_He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 500,000 times the size of viral Covid particles._

As you can see, this isn't Dr Steve from Facebook this is from someone qualified to comment.

Your post giving the information on N95 mask is all very interesting and is probably correct but again it is completely irrelevant in proving me wrong as your using a different mask and it's efficacy as a completely different example, some might say to suit your argument and point of view.
		
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And to go back to my first post in the discussion with you, you choose a cloth mask, which you admit is useless, when there’s clear data showing the difference a decent mask makes. So just who is being obtuse?

My choice, proven right by the mountains of qualified data, helps protect you. Your choice puts people at risk. Obtuse and selfish?


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

Can we agree that useless masks are useless, decent ones are better and high quality ones better still, and therefore people should be encouraged to wear at least decent ones?


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## RichA (Jul 19, 2021)

Just finished my commute to work. Train from Herts into Liverpool Street then Central Line into east London. 
Purely anecdotal, but the vast majority were wearing masks. In fact, about the same as last week.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can we agree that useless masks are useless, decent ones are better and high quality ones better still, and therefore people should be encouraged to wear at least decent ones?
		
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Sounds reasonable but a decent mask without face fit testing renders them pretty useless, so I would say almost all masks worn by the general public must be considered ineffective.


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## jim8flog (Jul 19, 2021)

.[/QUOTE]


Hobbit said:



			Two g’children, one 8 months old and one 6 months old that we’ve not seen yet.
		
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 Is the mum sure they are all out


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## jim8flog (Jul 19, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			And with hard work, eradicated smallpox. It didn’t happen overnight and, sadly, there will be casualties but learn to live with it we will.
		
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One of the things I remember about small pox was that we were not allowed to holiday in Spain unless we had a small pox vaccination.

Maybe just a slightly poor child hood memory but I was vaccinated before travelling there at 8 years old.


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## larmen (Jul 19, 2021)

RichA said:



			Just finished my commute to work. Train from Herts into Liverpool Street then Central Line into east London. 
Purely anecdotal, but the vast majority were wearing masks. In fact, about the same as last week.
		
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How full was the train, also compared to last week?


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## jim8flog (Jul 19, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			What about the member of SAGE who came out and said that cloth masks are a complete waste of time a ‘safety blanket’ as the size of the virus are far smaller than the size of the holes in a cloth mask which the vast majority wear. Surely if masks are to be kept then at least have people wearing something that will do some sort of job.
		
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 This was the advice from the start of this pandemic.  The reason behind wearing ordinary cloth and simple 3 layer paper masks for Mr Average is to protect other by stopping how far droplets etc will travel.

I doubt that many would wear the type of masks that protect themselves simply on the basis of cost.


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## BTatHome (Jul 19, 2021)

I'm pretty sure the issue with everybody's conflicting views on face masks is the huge variation in masks, and the terminology used by some. The views of experts is much summed up by the words used, and terms like "some cloth masks" just don't get through to most people, and they remember only small parts of what has been read.

Masks that are considered useless are surely not 100% useless, and if it stops a lot of the droplets then it is performing some function.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 19, 2021)

Things change from today, whatever your thoughts, feelings etc, stay safe and fingers crossed nobody we know is affected badly.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			This was the advice from the start of this pandemic.  The reason behind wearing ordinary cloth and simple 3 layer paper masks for Mr Average is to protect other by stopping how far droplets etc will travel.

I doubt that many would wear the type of masks that protect themselves simply on the basis of cost.
		
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Yes, IIRC, I think it was Prof Whitty , in one of the first briefings,explaining that masks weren't necessary because they stop only droplets, and if people kept to 2 metres apart the droplets don't travel beyond that distance.
So, what about aerosol transmission?  Hobbits post explains that (some?) present day masks filter the virus particle. The blue ones I have- straightforward bought online- claim to be to a standard PM 2.5, which when I looked it up says it will filter particles of Covid size.
If that is correct, and subject to the "fitting" argument, then it seems they help protect.
But a number of claims need to be correct and accurate!


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## Imurg (Jul 19, 2021)

Its not much of a change for me.
Still have to wear masks during lessons and I'll still, probably, wear one in the shops. 
Only real difference is that we won't have to wear masks whilst walking through the changing rooms and other parts of the clubhouse to get to the bar.
Which, as you took your mask off as soon as you sat down, always seemed a bit bizarre anyway.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can we agree that useless masks are useless, decent ones are better and high quality ones better still, and therefore people should be encouraged to wear at least decent ones?
		
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This has never been raised though has it? Worldwide people are wearing similar masks to here on the whole, we are not unique in the mask style that we wear. 

What's a decent mask? Industrial level? People were just told to wear any form of covering, nothing more than that. 

What you write makes total sense but it just didn't happen.


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## D-S (Jul 19, 2021)

Is the only material difference between the ‘this is the right approach’ camp and the ‘whoah we are being far too reckless‘ camp the mandatory versus recommended use of face masks in public indoor spaces? Or are there other fundamental splits?


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			This has never been raised though has it? Worldwide people are wearing similar masks to here on the whole, we are not unique in the mask style that we wear.

What's a decent mask? Industrial level? People were just told to wear any form of covering, nothing more than that.

What you write makes total sense but it just didn't happen.
		
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Well, the one I use, bought on the net, has disposable PM2.5 filters in it.


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## DanFST (Jul 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			Is the only material difference between the ‘this is the right approach’ camp and the ‘whoah we are being far too reckless‘ camp the mandatory versus recommended use of face masks in public indoor spaces? Or are there other fundamental splits?
		
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I think it's also based on what you think the long term future is. If you think we can control it, or trust the vaccine and better treatment options.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I think it's also based on what you think the long term future is. If you think we can control it, or trust the vaccine and better treatment options.
		
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We can, but just not quite yet.


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## DRW (Jul 19, 2021)

You would think a good N95, you would notice in the real world, see below , wouldnt you (yeah I am someone who wears a N99, as believe in that they protect but.........)

The problems with masks in the community is the fit is poor, law of unintended consequences, touching them, wearing them for weeks and we dont actually wear them were you are most likely to get infected and so on etc. Alot of cases are more a reflection of how rich or poor you are.

Loads of real world studies(rcts pre 2020 with different kinds of mask in the community showing very poor proof) and even upto date real life situations, not looked since as was so disappointed couldnt see a diffferent:- 
	



Surely a N95 and negative test to enter shops, would help, surely, surely it would have an affect :-


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## Orikoru (Jul 19, 2021)

It's Freedom Day™, yet I'm settling in for a week of isolating, during which my wife will nag me about how it's the perfect time to get things done around the house. God.


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## RichA (Jul 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			How full was the train, also compared to last week?
		
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Slightly fewer people than usual. First day of school holidays, so some parents taking time off work, I guess.


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## D-S (Jul 19, 2021)

It’s Freedom day - no change whatsoever for me. 
Can’t even use a rake as big National competitions on at the Club, we have thin pins which I will leave in almost all the time, the only change to my life  will be that I’ll able to use the ball washers, if only the fairways were muddy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, the one I use, bought on the net, has disposable PM2.5 filters in it.
		
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I get that but the advice has never been at that level. It is pretty much 'wear a face covering'. Northumberland County Council gave out thousands of self printed snood coverings to their employees which they wear around their necks and pull up when required, they look like the sort of things used in a Western. No idea if effective, questionable how often they are washed. No memo got through to them about effectiveness.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			It’s Freedom day - no change whatsoever for me.
Can’t even use a rake as big National competitions on at the Club, we have thin pins which I will leave in almost all the time, the only change to my life  *will be that I’ll able to use the ball washers,* if only the fairways were muddy.
		
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I leave the pins in, have been happy with placing in a bunker but the one thing I have missed is ball cleaners. Welcome back to them


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## Billysboots (Jul 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			This current go-to phrase 'We've got to learn to live with it' concerns me.  What exactly do we have to learn to live with, rampaging infection rates, loved ones seriously ill or dead, NHS overloaded so non Covid treatments and Ops are postponed further, vulnerable people having to lock themselves away and live in fear, people having long term organ damage and failure.  Wow!  Sounds a hoot and what's the pay off for all this, the pleasure of sitting on a tram or bus, shopping, crowding at the bar of a pub, almost anything you want to do with no mask or social distance.   And so the ship of fools sail on.
		
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Not sure if that is in response to me, but what I actually said was that we need to adapt and live with Covid, not that we simply needed to learn to live with it. There is a difference.

Like many here I am now double jabbed but I will still be wearing a face covering if and when I use public transport, and in crowded indoor places. I doubt I’ll ever return to the days of close personal contact with non family members. 

I would never advocate simply going back to “normal” pre-Covid ways. To do so would plainly be foolish.


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## D-S (Jul 19, 2021)

Given this debate it seems amazing that through the first lockdown in March last year and for many weeks afterwards, we were not wearing any face masks.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			Given this debate it seems amazing that through the first lockdown in March last year and for many weeks afterwards, we were not wearing any face masks.
		
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Yes, bad decision.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2021)

Heading by train off up to London shortly.  Tickets booked for The Tower, then meeting with friends in the Sky Garden for pre-dinner drinks, and then to Spitalfields for dinner.  Uber back to Waterloo.  Will be interesting to see how folks are working cautiously within the new 'guidelines'.  We will not be using the underground.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Not sure if that is in response to me, but what I actually said was that we need to adapt and live with Covid, not that we simply needed to learn to live with it. There is a difference.

Like many here I am now double jabbed but I will still be wearing a face covering if and when I use public transport, and in crowded indoor places. I doubt I’ll ever return to the days of close personal contact with non family members. 

I would never advocate simply going back to “normal” pre-Covid ways. To do so would plainly be foolish.
		
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It's wasn't directed at you personally.  I keep hearing people saying 'We have to learn to live with Covid' and I don't understand exactly what they mean by that, in many cases I think it means ' We have to let it rip and accept the consequences'.  I'm not suggesting you are saying this but it would help if people clarified what they mean by it.


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			It's Freedom Day™, yet I'm settling in for a week of isolating, during which my wife will nag me about how it's the perfect time to get things done around the house. God. 

Click to expand...

That's why god invented PS5's mate 🤣


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get that but the advice has never been at that level. It is pretty much 'wear a face covering'. Northumberland County Council gave out thousands of self printed snood coverings to their employees which they wear around their necks and pull up when required, they look like the sort of things used in a Western. No idea if effective, questionable how often they are washed. No memo got through to them about effectiveness.
		
Click to expand...

I see people wearing masks improperly all the time too. Look it at it like this. If you were advising a heavy smoker on health improvement, you would like to see them stop altogether, but if that wasn't feasible, cutting down or switching to a lower tar cigarette is better than nothing. 

Mask wearing is a probability game. The risk is not constant, but you don't know when someone has coughed a cloud of virus into the air that you are about to breathe. Having something that reduces the chance that you will inhale it, or that you will inhale a lower viral load, is therefore a good thing. Having a proper FFP3 mask is better, but just because you can't do the better doesn't mean you shouldn't do the good. 

A lot of people don't respond to evidence that changes their pre-determined mindset. Some people got the idea fixed in their mind at the start that this virus only hurts old or vulnerable people and young people might only get a flu-like illness, and that false picture has remained resistant to facts and data since.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I see people wearing masks improperly all the time too. Look it at it like this. If you were advising a heavy smoker on health improvement, you would like to see them stop altogether, but if that wasn't feasible, cutting down or switching to a lower tar cigarette is better than nothing. 

Mask wearing is a probability game. The risk is not constant, but you don't know when someone has coughed a cloud of virus into the air that you are about to breathe. Having something that reduces the chance that you will inhale it, or that you will inhale a lower viral load, is therefore a good thing. Having a proper FFP3 mask is better, but just because you can't do the better doesn't mean you shouldn't do the good. 

A lot of people don't respond to evidence that changes their pre-determined mindset. Some people got the idea fixed in their mind at the start that this virus only hurts old or vulnerable people and young people might only get a flu-like illness, and that false picture has remained resistant to facts and data since.
		
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All that makes sense. The second paragraph in particular is pure logic sense.
I know you have a strong opinion about the last paragraph subject, but what exactly is the data about long Covid particularly in the young ( under 40ish).
I ask because I haven't seen any figures, only anecdotal. 
You see, E, what people who are very concerned about L C are up against is that day after day, we hear that such and such well known person has tested positive etc. I have never seen a follow up about any of them getting LC.
E,g in golf, quite a number of Pros have tested positive, none has reportedly got LC.
Footballers, rugby , even people on  this forum.
Just how prevalent is it?    .  
Is there such a thing as Long Flu ( I think there is- I read something about hippocampus etc.)
Just what is the perspective of Long Covid. How big is the likelihood?


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## IainP (Jul 19, 2021)

☝️
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000xwjg


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## Fade and Die (Jul 19, 2021)

IainP said:



			☝️
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000xwjg

Click to expand...


Long Covid will be an early Christmas present for malingerers and hypochondriacs! The new “Bad back”


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## Kellfire (Jul 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Long Covid will be an early Christmas present for malingerers and hypochondriacs! The new “Bad back”
		
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I’m intrigued as to how you think people will fake things like cardiomyopathy or hepatitis.


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## GB72 (Jul 19, 2021)

Just a quick vox pop from being in town today at lunchtime. Most peopel still wearing masks, in every shop where the signage said recommend wearing a mask, people were putting them on. Actually saw more people alking between shops with masks on, maybe making a point. Still, round my way, it appears that if somewhere says they would rather you wore a mask, people are wearing them


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2021)

My colleague that was/is vaccine sceptical

She is having today.. not to keep anyone safe or that she's changed her mind re babies etc 

She has a holiday booked for November 🙄


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## D-S (Jul 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Just a quick vox pop from being in town today at lunchtime. Most peopel still wearing masks, in every shop where the signage said recommend wearing a mask, people were putting them on. Actually saw more people alking between shops with masks on, maybe making a point. Still, round my way, it appears that if somewhere says they would rather you wore a mask, people are wearing them
		
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This is exactly what I saw here too today. Baking hot and quite a few more than usual wearing masks outside. A few shop staff were not wearing masks but almost all shoppers were. Had a haircut and all the Covid protocols were still being followed there too.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 19, 2021)

IainP said:



			☝️
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000xwjg

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Well, according to Wikipedia, 5.43 million have had Covid in U.K., so unless one or both are incorrect, that means one in five who have had Covid have got Long Covid
Really?


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## PNWokingham (Jul 19, 2021)

just wandered into town and walked into a pub and ordered a pint at the bar without a mask on. It felt good


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## GB72 (Jul 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just wandered into town and walked into a pub and ordered a pint at the bar without a mask on. It felt good
		
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This is the one for me. Despite the heat, I am reclaiming my regular stool at the bar on the right at my local this evening for the first time since last march.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 19, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			I’m intrigued as to how you think people will fake things like cardiomyopathy or hepatitis.
		
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Not that cut and dried though is it? For every hepatitis there will be 10 x chest pains, tiredness and brain fog (🤪) 

I suppose I’m looking at it from an employers point of view but people will definitely milk it.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This is the one for me. Despite the heat, I am reclaiming my regular stool at the bar on the right at my local this evening for the first time since last march.
		
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My pet hate is people stood or sat at the bar blocking it from other customers being served.


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## GB72 (Jul 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			My pet hate is people stood or sat at the bar blocking it from other customers being served.
		
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Not sure what sort of pub you are in but it is very much the norm in my village local and, indeed, my previous local as well. Everyone chats to everyone in the bar and so everyone stands up and mills around or sits at the bar. It is a small bar and so most regulars will buy a round for people coming in anyway. In a busy pub I understand it but in many village pubs where everyone knows everyone in the bar, it is perfectly normal.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			just wandered into town and walked into a pub and ordered a pint at the bar without a mask on. It felt good
		
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I’m at Sams clubhouse at the Belfry and nobody is going to the bar with one on. The staff still have to wear them which is a shame they don’t have a choice. It’s nice, it’s normal!  
But take advantage of it. It won’t be around for long. They need something to blame and justification for the inevitable lockdown in autumn.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 19, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’m at Sams clubhouse at the Belfry and nobody is going to the bar with one on. The staff still have to wear them which is a shame they don’t have a choice. It’s nice, it’s normal!  
But take advantage of it. It won’t be around for long. They need something to blame and justification for the inevitable lockdown in autumn.
		
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Don’t bother with the Bel-air. It’s a sausage fest 😂😂😂


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			All that makes sense. The second paragraph in particular is pure logic sense.
I know you have a strong opinion about the last paragraph subject, but what exactly is the data about long Covid particularly in the young ( under 40ish).
I ask because I haven't seen any figures, only anecdotal.
You see, E, what people who are very concerned about L C are up against is that day after day, we hear that such and such well known person has tested positive etc. I have never seen a follow up about any of them getting LC.
E,g in golf, quite a number of Pros have tested positive, none has reportedly got LC.
Footballers, rugby , even people on  this forum.
Just how prevalent is it?    . 
Is there such a thing as Long Flu ( I think there is- I read something about hippocampus etc.)
Just what is the perspective of Long Covid. How big is the likelihood?
		
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There are three separate non-fatal outcomes of concern. 

The first is the most obvious, damage during an acute episode that the patients has not, and possibly will never fully, recover from. So some people have lung damage, or damage from the cytokine storm affecting one or more organs. These people have usually been quite unwell and have probably been in hospital. Derek Draper is an example of this, widely discussed in the media. 

The second group is long Covid, which generally means persisting symptoms weeks or months after infection, sometimes after mild infection. Estimates of the prevalence vary, but something around 10% at 12 weeks appears to be an accepted number. The numbers at one year are not yet well enough studied. Post-viral syndromes are well known, and occur with other viruses too. Long Covid is probably to do with a disordered immune response to the virus, not ongoing virus activity, and sometimes responds to vaccination which kind of kickstarts the immune system. 

The third group are the ones that concern me most. These are the people who had mild illness and seem to have fully recovered. But if you scan their brains or liver or kidneys, you find a number that have changes in the organs suggestive of inflammatory change. In simple terms, they have put a lot more miles on the clock very quickly. Now, these people are fine now, but in a year or 3 or 5, their kidneys, liver, heart or brain might fail. There is published work on brain atrophy, i.e. degenerative changes like you see in MS or Parkinsons, on myocarditis (as well as being a side effect of vaccination), etc. This is an iceberg of future pathology floating mostly under the surface that could cause serious problems in the short two medium term. 

Going back to my last para in the previous post, in a lot of this, Covid is very different from flu. Flue tends to kill old people in winter, Covid kills younger people too. Flu can cause post-viral syndromes, but not to the same extent, and flu tends not to cause (although Soanish flu was an exception) the widespread inflammatory effects of Covid. If an average forum member here got the flu, we could almost certainly reassure them that they will be fine, take some paracetemol, rest for a bit, you'll be fine. I would not be as confident with Covid. It is a nasty, sneaky little bastard.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Not that cut and dried though is it? For every hepatitis there will be 10 x chest pains, tiredness and brain fog (🤪)

I suppose I’m looking at it from an employers point of view but people will definitely milk it.
		
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Hepatitis requires altered liver function tests, mycarditis an altered echocardiogram and abnormal blood tests showing heart damage. Both, going a bit yellow and having chest pain or unexplained breathlessness, need proper medical investigation. Brain fog, on the other hand, is common, see plenty of it around here.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 19, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’m at Sams clubhouse at the Belfry and nobody is going to the bar with one on. The staff still have to wear them which is a shame they don’t have a choice. It’s nice, it’s normal! 
But take advantage of it. It won’t be around for long. They need something to blame and justification for the inevitable lockdown in autumn.
		
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I will stick my neck out and take an optimistic attitude that although cases will rise for next month or so, that we will avoid a further autumn lockdown and that the vaccines will do enough of what is needed


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I will stick my neck out and take an optimistic attitude that although cases will rise for next month or so, that we will avoid a further autumn lockdown and that the vaccines will do enough of what is needed
		
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I hope you are right, but unless you are advocating vaccinating teenagers, then a large reservoir of disease remains.

Most public health measures work better if you take a pessimistic attitude and are proven wrong. If you take an optimistic attitude, then by the time you suspect you are wrong, it is often too late to change course.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I hope you are right, but unless you are advocating vaccinating teenagers, then a large reservoir of disease remains.

Most public health measures work better if you take a pessimistic attitude and are proven wrong. If you take an optimistic attitude, then by the time you suspect you are wrong, it is often too late to change course.
		
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had enough of a pessimistic attitude. A holiday in Tenerife hopefully awaits in mid September and i have gone from fealing a near certainty to 50/50 - i want to start thinking more 80/20. And given the entire over 18s are likely vaccinated by september and many under 18 will likely have had it, i think there is room for optimism.


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## DRW (Jul 19, 2021)

Had to have a think, The living with it phrase, will mean different things to different people. It isnt a binary thing. As before living life, is different for everyone.

For me, think it is that at the current state of play, as with other mutating infectious viruses, we will probably need to accept that we are going to 'catch' this multiple times in our life and take on that risk, vaccines really helping (hopefully the first and second plus time, will be mild for all of us, as our immunity builds up and hope we are not one of the outliners that sadly exist in quite high % in statistics ). Hope treatments get better as well.

Yeah we personally are taking various reductions of risk, due to family members age/other conditions and vaccines only reduce the risk for your age/conditions profile. Will also probably vary what we do, depending on time of year etc. Quite sobering thinking about it tbh, the day that life changed.

We have lost alot of weight since coming out of lockdown, to bring us into the 'sweet' spot for moving forward and weight being a bad thing for severity and other health issues, for me Ive lost 2.5 stone(thanks lockdown for the extra weight tho!) and don't need to lose anymore. Wife has lost over 2 stone so far. We are pretty fit etc already.

I hate lockdowns and the feeling of anger I have been left with, it will take a long time to move on from that, probably never.

Lost our son from our house at a very tender age, makes me * * just thinking about it. Didn't see the new grandchild for quite a time and son, due to the laws. Yeah I have seen the other side with the virus and people suffering from the virus, but life harms are not simple.

However, the thing that brings me great pleasure and hope for the future, is seeing younger people who have suffered and given up so much from the restrictions, starting to being able to live a better quality of life and have more choices.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 19, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse or whether it's just an early start on a Monday morning however you are completely missing my point. If you take a moment to go back and have a read you will see that I have, at no point, said that all masks do not work. I have said that *CLOTH MASKS* do not work and this was based on SAGE adviser Colin Axon:

_Standard face coverings are just "comfort blankets" that do little to reduce the spread of Covid particles, a scientist advising Sage on ventilation has said._

_Dr Colin Axon, who has advised the government on minimising the risk of cross-infection in supermarkets, accused medics of presenting a "cartoonish" view of how how tiny particles travel through the air._

_He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 500,000 times the size of viral Covid particles._

As you can see, this isn't Dr Steve from Facebook this is from someone qualified to comment.

Your post giving the information on N95 mask is all very interesting and is probably correct but again it is completely irrelevant in proving me wrong as your using a different mask and it's efficacy as a completely different example, some might say to suit your argument and point of view.
		
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It might not be Dr Steve from Facebook, but it is Dr Colin Axon who is......

"Senior Lecturer in the Institute of Energy Futures. My research is about the use of energy in the urban environment and the limits to natural resources. My main areas of interest are in energy security, sustainability, transport, electricity networks, and resource efficiency. I use techniques and methods including the application of robust methods for metrics and indicators, and data mining and analytics. I have published more than 80 reviewed articles and technical reports."

Areas he's researched are.....

Energy security, risk, and sustainability.
Data analytics for energy use in the urban environment.
Infrastructure investment for the low(er)-carbon transition.
Energy use by transport and it's impacts on health.
Robust methods for metrics and indicators.
Electricity networks.
He may well be an expert in Energy futures and energy in the urban environment but what he's certainly not is a medical doctor or an epidemiologist.

https://www.brunel.ac.uk/people/colin-axon


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			It might not be Dr Steve from Facebook, but it is Dr Colin Axon who is......

"Senior Lecturer in the Institute of Energy Futures. My research is about the use of energy in the urban environment and the limits to natural resources. My main areas of interest are in energy security, sustainability, transport, electricity networks, and resource efficiency. I use techniques and methods including the application of robust methods for metrics and indicators, and data mining and analytics. I have published more than 80 reviewed articles and technical reports."

Areas he's researched are.....

Energy security, risk, and sustainability.
Data analytics for energy use in the urban environment.
Infrastructure investment for the low(er)-carbon transition.
Energy use by transport and it's impacts on health.
Robust methods for metrics and indicators.
Electricity networks.
He may well be an expert in Energy futures and energy in the urban environment but what he's certainly not is a medical doctor or an epidemiologist.

https://www.brunel.ac.uk/people/colin-axon

Click to expand...

But he’s also been advising SAGE (or at least that’s how it was reported) so he’s obviously got some knowledge that’s been required.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			had enough of a pessimistic attitude. A holiday in Tenerife hopefully awaits in mid September and i have gone from fealing a near certainty to 50/50 - i want to start thinking more 80/20. And given the entire over 18s are likely vaccinated by september and many under 18 will likely have had it, i think there is room for optimism.
		
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80/20. Airport management books don't really cover public health emergencies very well. 

If you are manager of the widget factory and your plan to speed up production doesn't work, big deal. If you decide not to order enough ICU kit because you are "optimistic" about pandemic numbers and you are wrong, not so good. Optimism is fine if you also plan properly for that rosy picture not working out. 

If you go to Tenerife, play Abama, by the way.


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## D-S (Jul 19, 2021)

Everyone (including staff and me) wearing masks in Tesco today despite it being relatively empty.


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

D-S said:



			Everyone (including staff and me) wearing masks in Tesco today despite it being relatively empty.
		
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Just been in Tesco Wokingham. Similar, great majority wearing masks, apart from a pair of middle aged women who knew exactly where all the pies had gone and therefore were at much higher risk than most and needed a mask more than most.


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## Imurg (Jul 19, 2021)

Interesting observation from my Tesco this morning...only people not wearing masks were about a dozen staff who are all, apparently, exempt....


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Not sure what sort of pub you are in but it is very much the norm in my village local and, indeed, my previous local as well. Everyone chats to everyone in the bar and so everyone stands up and mills around or sits at the bar. It is a small bar and so most regulars will buy a round for people coming in anyway. In a busy pub I understand it but in many village pubs where everyone knows everyone in the bar, it is perfectly normal.
		
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It's a very busy pub and it's no joke when people are standing three or four deep to be served while a group decide they like leaning on the bar and block it off.  Staff should shift them.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 19, 2021)

I was certainly in the minority not wearing a mask in an uncrowded Aldi earlier


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## SaintHacker (Jul 19, 2021)

Having returned from an extremely busy weekend at Silverstone yesterday I have no problem in continuing to 'mask up' when shppoing etc, for the next few weeks at least


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			It might not be Dr Steve from Facebook, but it is Dr Colin Axon who is......

"Senior Lecturer in the Institute of Energy Futures. My research is about the use of energy in the urban environment and the limits to natural resources. My main areas of interest are in energy security, sustainability, transport, electricity networks, and resource efficiency. I use techniques and methods including the application of robust methods for metrics and indicators, and data mining and analytics. I have published more than 80 reviewed articles and technical reports."

Areas he's researched are.....

Energy security, risk, and sustainability.
Data analytics for energy use in the urban environment.
Infrastructure investment for the low(er)-carbon transition.
Energy use by transport and it's impacts on health.
Robust methods for metrics and indicators.
Electricity networks.
He may well be an expert in Energy futures and energy in the urban environment but what he's certainly not is a medical doctor or an epidemiologist.

https://www.brunel.ac.uk/people/colin-axon

Click to expand...

I noticed this when I looked him up.


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## jim8flog (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, the one I use, bought on the net, has disposable PM2.5 filters in it.
		
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the ones I bought and used are also PM2.5 The PM2.5 being a charcoal filter for those that do not know.

My understanding though is that this grade is not good enough to stop virus.

When I did some research before buying my masks I understood an N95 was the minimum grade to achieve this 




Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, IIRC, I think it was Prof Whitty , in one of the first briefings,explaining that masks weren't necessary because they stop only droplets, and if people kept to 2 metres apart the droplets don't travel beyond that distance.
So, what about aerosol transmission?  Hobbits post explains that (some?) present day masks filter the virus particle. The blue ones I have- straightforward bought online- claim to be to a standard PM 2.5, which when I looked it up says it will filter particles of Covid size.
If that is correct, and subject to the "fitting" argument, then it seems they help protect.
But a number of claims need to be correct and accurate!
		
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Full fitting is the reason a lot of masks do not make the grade for full protection, my PM2.5 masks certainly would not meet that criteria


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I was certainly in the minority not wearing a mask in an uncrowded Aldi earlier
		
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So you chose to ignore the request from Aldi to wear one?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			the ones I bought and used are also PM2.5 The PM2.5 being a charcoal filter for those that do not know.

My understanding though is that this grade is not good enough to stop virus.

When I did some research before buying my masks I understood an N95 was the minimum grade to achieve this




Full fitting is the reason a lot of masks do not make the grade for full protection, my PM2.5 masks certainly would not meet that criteria
		
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How many on here are clean shaven and have a correctly face fitted mask? Maybe one or two in the building game or the good Dr but most people are putting on a mask without a good seal, they will then pull it about, lift it up and screw it up in their pocket to re-use making it virtually pointless. And the amount of waste being generated is criminal.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 19, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I was certainly in the minority not wearing a mask in an uncrowded Aldi earlier
		
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I’ve just been to Morrison’s on my way home, I didn’t wear one. Ironically to get some vitamin tabs after a heavy weekend and body has took a battering with the heat and drink.  

No staff were wearing them and I would say 80% shoppers were wearing them.


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## larmen (Jul 19, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Not that cut and dried though is it? For every hepatitis there will be 10 x chest pains, tiredness and brain fog (🤪) 

I suppose I’m looking at it from an employers point of view but people will definitely milk it.
		
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From my own experience I can tell you that chest pain moves you right up the queue at A&E.

The negative is, that even if they don’t find anything, or especially if they don’t find anything (?) they keep you for at least one night.

If someone wants to fake anything, chest pain might not be the way to go.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			So you chose to ignore the request from Aldi to wear one?
		
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Yes. I chose to exercise my discretion and not wear a mask.


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## Italian outcast (Jul 19, 2021)

Some reasonable vaccine concerns 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417118814454620160


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## road2ruin (Jul 19, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			Some reasonable vaccine concerns 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417118814454620160

Click to expand...

"Covid vaccines can transmit and receive signals from 5G towers." 

I wish, I barely get 3G on Vodafone in my area once inside the house, I'd happily have the booster jab if it got me up to 5G!


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## larmen (Jul 19, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			Some reasonable vaccine concerns 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417118814454620160

Click to expand...

A reasonable concern is, how did someone who thinks vaccine transmit 5G become a nurse.


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## Italian outcast (Jul 19, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			"Covid vaccines can transmit and receive signals from 5G towers."

I wish, I barely get 3G on Vodafone in my area once inside the house, I'd happily have the booster jab if it got me up to 5G!
		
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I see what you did there


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2021)

Well that's the sense of smell gone, can still taste things...for now 🙈


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## larmen (Jul 19, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Well that's the sense of smell gone, can still taste things...for now 🙈
		
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Time to paint the bedroom, clean the sewage tank, and open the sports bag from before the 1st lockdown ;-)


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## Kellfire (Jul 19, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			Some reasonable vaccine concerns 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417118814454620160

Click to expand...

Sadly they walk among us.


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			Time to paint the bedroom, clean the sewage tank, and open the sports bag from before the 1st lockdown ;-)
		
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Did the last bit a couple of weeks back, nearly took my eyebrows off 😮😬


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			A reasonable concern is, how did someone who thinks vaccine transmit 5G become a nurse.
		
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Perhaps that's why she's a "former" nurse.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Just been in Tesco Wokingham. Similar, great majority wearing masks, apart from a pair of middle aged women who knew exactly where all the pies had gone and therefore were at much higher risk than most and needed a mask more than most.
		
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The only justification for that would be if they were meat and potato pies from Wigan. Now , they are irresistible 😊


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## GB72 (Jul 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's a very busy pub and it's no joke when people are standing three or four deep to be served while a group decide they like leaning on the bar and block it off.  Staff should shift them.
		
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Ok agree with that, ok in some pubs not in others. My local is never going to get 3 deep and most only need to signal the bar staff to pour the usual from the other side of the room


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## Billysboots (Jul 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			Time to paint the bedroom, clean the sewage tank, and open the sports bag from before the 1st lockdown ;-)
		
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And, if your feet are anything like mine, clean your golf shoes.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 19, 2021)

We're told that "venues such as nightclubs are a focus for potential superspreading events" and as such from the end of September you will need proof of having had both jabs to be able to enter. Evidence from Israel and Netherlands supposedly supports this. But the end of September is over 10 weeks away. So why are they being allowed to open now without those restrictions? This will also potentially apply to other crowded indoor spaces. I'm assuming that this is just a cynical ploy to try to get as many of the younger generation vaccinated as possible.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			We're told that "venues such as nightclubs are a focus for potential superspreading events" and as such from the end of September you will need proof of having had both jabs to be able to enter. Evidence from Israel and Netherlands supposedly supports this. But the end of September is over 10 weeks away. So why are they being allowed to open now without those restrictions? This will also potentially apply to other crowded indoor spaces. I'm assuming that this is just a cynical ploy to try to get as many of the younger generation vaccinated as possible.
		
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Because their main customer base haven't got the vaccine second dose yet and they would need gov support again so this get around "saves' money (until it causes a lockdown)


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## Beezerk (Jul 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			We're told that "venues such as nightclubs are a focus for potential superspreading events" and as such from the end of September you will need proof of having had both jabs to be able to enter. Evidence from Israel and Netherlands supposedly supports this. But the end of September is over 10 weeks away. So why are they being allowed to open now without those restrictions? This will also potentially apply to other crowded indoor spaces. I'm assuming that this is just a cynical ploy to try to get as many of the younger generation vaccinated as possible.
		
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Is it maybe just a ploy to encourage some of the doubters to get vaccinated? Like posted just before, I know people who will only get a jab if it stops them doing something. There is a word for them, Dossers!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 19, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			Some reasonable vaccine concerns 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417118814454620160

Click to expand...

Thank heavens she is a former nurse, nice touch with her outfit for the march 🙄. On the upside, if all of those vaccinated are going to croak then she will be able to get a bargain in the housing market 😳.

Scary. I have a cousin who is in this camp. He likes and shares this sort of nonsense all the time on Facebook. I unfriended him some time ago but I know he is still posting regularly with more of the same.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Thank heavens she is a former nurse, nice touch with her outfit for the march 🙄. On the upside, if all of those vaccinated are going to croak then she will be able to get a bargain in the housing market 😳.

Scary. I have a cousin who is in this camp. He likes and shares this sort of nonsense all the time on Facebook. I unfriended him some time ago but I know he is still posting regularly with more of the same.
		
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I hope this idiot is interviewed in 2yrs and then committed when she tries to back track.

Unless of course they give us the antidote hidden in the flu jab.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Thank heavens she is a former nurse, nice touch with her outfit for the march 🙄. On the upside, if all of those vaccinated are going to croak then she will be able to get a bargain in the housing market 😳.

Scary. I have a cousin who is in this camp. He likes and shares this sort of nonsense all the time on Facebook. I unfriended him some time ago but I know he is still posting regularly with more of the same.
		
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odd you should mention that you have unfriended someone.I have read a few posts today from friends I knew at the pits I worked at. I thought they were intelligent people. Having read some of the things they have posted I am of the ilk they are as thick as pig muck. It’s not that I disagree with what they say. But some of there rational is borderline village idiot territory. Am thinking why do I have this dangerous negativity in my life.
facebook could be getting culled soon.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 19, 2021)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...e-self-isolation-in-exceptional-circumstances

Wonder how this will actually work 

Have to isolate outside of work and it's optional 

How many would risk going work?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Thank heavens she is a former nurse, nice touch with her outfit for the march 🙄. On the upside, if all of those vaccinated are going to croak then she will be able to get a bargain in the housing market 😳.

Scary. I have a cousin who is in this camp. He likes and shares this sort of nonsense all the time on Facebook. I unfriended him some time ago but I know he is still posting regularly with more of the same.
		
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We have a couple of relatives who are Covid deniers and anti vaxers. Silly thing is they are currently living like hermits, if they really believed their own stupidity you would think they would be out and about living it up 🙄


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## Ethan (Jul 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Thank heavens she is a former nurse, nice touch with her outfit for the march 🙄. On the upside, if all of those vaccinated are going to croak then she will be able to get a bargain in the housing market 😳.

Scary. I have a cousin who is in this camp. He likes and shares this sort of nonsense all the time on Facebook. I unfriended him some time ago but I know he is still posting regularly with more of the same.
		
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Nurses get f-all training in epidemiology, virology and drug development, nor it would appear, telecommunications networks. She can be safely ignored as a crank.


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## 4LEX (Jul 20, 2021)

Had my second jab today and my 5G signal went through the roof 

The amount of anti-science and conspiracy theories on social media is staggering. Absolutely no facts, just fear spreading through lies. I've personally unfriended numerous people for peddling this type of garbage, including distant family.

Anyone note the vile parasite that is Katie Hopkins has been booted out of Australia for ignoring their quarentine rules? The only shame is she's got to return back here. A one way ticket to the moon would surely get a lot of donations on GoFundMe


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## bobmac (Jul 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			She can be safely ignored as a crank.
		
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They should be arrested for spreading misleading and dangerous lies that could potentially kill people.

You only have to look across the pond to see that 99.5% of people dying from Covid have not been vaccinated and states with the highest death rates have the lowest vaccine uptake.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 20, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Had my second jab today and my 5G signal went through the roof 

The amount of anti-science and conspiracy theories on social media is staggering. Absolutely no facts, just fear spreading through lies. I've personally unfriended numerous people for peddling this type of garbage, including distant family.

Anyone note the vile parasite that is Katie Hopkins has been booted out of Australia for ignoring their quarentine rules? The only shame is she's got to return back here. A one way ticket to the moon would surely get a lot of donations on GoFundMe 

Click to expand...

Whats the moon done to deserve that?!?


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## Beezerk (Jul 20, 2021)

Rough night last night, I can only describe it has having a bad cold coupled with a raging hangover. Feel a little better this morning, the headache has dulled a bit and my nose isn't as snotty.
 I would NOT like to have had this without being double jabbed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Whats the moon done to deserve that?!?
		
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The Moon needn’t worry too much as no doubt she’ll find a new home on GBeebies.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2021)

Travelling up late morning to London by train to Waterloo and London Bridge…generally masks worn by most passengers on the trains and in stations other than some younger travellers.  Likewise late evening returning to Waterloo by the Underground…it was quiet and a younger traveller prob 50:50 on mask wearing even though it is required.

Indoors in shops, bars and restaurants - mostly wearing.  No doubt Non-wearers will feel superior and justified when they find somewhere where staff and/or customers are majority not wearing - but yesterday in my observations they were in the significant minority in central London.

That said - in the outdoors most were not wearing…probably as central London is still very quiet…few overseas tourists to speak of and city workers conspicuous by their absence.  Not easy to find yourself in a crowd when outdoors at the moment.  Only queue were in was for the Sky Garden/Bar of the ‘walki-talkie’ building and in that we could see that many were still wearing masks and trying to maintain at least a metre distancing.


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## Backache (Jul 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse or whether it's just an early start on a Monday morning however you are completely missing my point. If you take a moment to go back and have a read you will see that I have, at no point, said that all masks do not work. I have said that *CLOTH MASKS* do not work and this was based on SAGE adviser Colin Axon:

_Standard face coverings are just "comfort blankets" that do little to reduce the spread of Covid particles, a scientist advising Sage on ventilation has said._

_Dr Colin Axon, who has advised the government on minimising the risk of cross-infection in supermarkets, accused medics of presenting a "cartoonish" view of how how tiny particles travel through the air._

_He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 500,000 times the size of viral Covid particles._

As you can see, this isn't Dr Steve from Facebook this is from someone qualified to comment.

Your post giving the information on N95 mask is all very interesting and is probably correct but again it is completely irrelevant in proving me wrong as your using a different mask and it's efficacy as a completely different example, some might say to suit your argument and point of view.
		
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Notice he says some cloth masks, not all cloth masks .
There is now quite good evidence that wearing masks reduces transmission which includes cloth masks . 
Just about every country whose scientists have been looking at the question have come up with the same answer. Masks reduce transmission. The main purpose of them is to reduce onward transmission from people carrying the virus more efficient ones will  protect the wearer as well.
Not wearing them indoors in public at times of high covid prevalence is an act of ignorance or selfishness.


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## Piece (Jul 20, 2021)

A small tale worth telling.

Heard a few weeks ago, that one of my best mates and golf PP refuses to have the vaccine. Don't know why and something I can't be <insert word> to debate or find out. I've also heard that he went on the anti-vaccine marches. I was due to play golf with him the other week on a kind freebie. A few days before tee-off he bailed due to falling ill. A week later it turns out he has Covid. Forward another 10 days, I see a Facebook post, saying, "Welcome home Daddy!". He had been in hospital for 10 days and is at home now recovering.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2021)

Vaccine passports not the way we do things in the UK; they are not the British way…until they are…but only for some contexts, but we can’t say which…consistent, cautious, coordinated or just confused…

Never mind…we all know who is going to be blamed if this experiment goes wrong…and that is what it is because whilst we have to date not been alone in our attempts to tackle the pandemic - and like others we have got some things right and some things wrong…in what we are doing *now* - we are alone.

BTW - to paint what we are doing at the moment as somehow indicative of the ‘UK leading the world‘ and something we should be proud of (as I heard claimed this morning) is to me disingenuous in the extreme.  But that ‘d’ verges in P-land and so I will desist from further comment on it further than that it affects me and so clarity is important.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I'm not sure whether you are being deliberately obtuse or whether it's just an early start on a Monday morning however you are completely missing my point. If you take a moment to go back and have a read you will see that I have, at no point, said that all masks do not work. I have said that *CLOTH MASKS* do not work and this was based on SAGE adviser Colin Axon:

_Standard face coverings are just "comfort blankets" that do little to reduce the spread of Covid particles, a scientist advising Sage on ventilation has said._

_Dr Colin Axon, who has advised the government on minimising the risk of cross-infection in supermarkets, accused medics of presenting a "cartoonish" view of how how tiny particles travel through the air._

_He warned some cloth masks have gaps which are invisible to the naked eye, but are 500,000 times the size of viral Covid particles._

As you can see, this isn't Dr Steve from Facebook this is from someone qualified to comment.

Your post giving the information on N95 mask is all very interesting and is probably correct but again it is completely irrelevant in proving me wrong as your using a different mask and it's efficacy as a completely different example, some might say to suit your argument and point of view.
		
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Lots of people, some credible. others less so, have "advised" SAGE. Axon is not, however, on SAGE or any of its known subcommittees, and SAGE appear not to have adopted his ideas. Maybe you should follow their lead, not his self-publicising blogs. He has a sneering attitude that should raise a red flag over his opinions.

Another basic principle of science is that you approach a scientific question with an open mind, some degree of obecjtivity. Axon's fevered blog suggests he has long since abandoned that position. He should therefore be ignored because he is no longer really a scientist, he is a lobbyist. 

Dr Steve, Professor at the University of Facebook knows that there is more than the simple mechanics of a sterile lab experiment on particle size to the determination of risk and benefit of masks. Listen to Steve.


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## drdel (Jul 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Vaccine passports not the way we do things in the UK; they are not the British way…until they are…but only for some contexts, but we can’t say which…consistent, cautious, coordinated or just confused…

Never mind…we all know who is going to be blamed if this experiment goes wrong…and that is what it is because whilst we have to date not been alone in our attempts to tackle the pandemic - and like others we have got some things right and some things wrong…in what we are doing now we are alone.

BTW - to paint what we are doing at the moment as somehow indicative of the ‘UK leading the world‘ and something we should be proud of as I heard claimed this morning is to me disingenuous in the extreme.  But that ‘d’ verges in P-land and so I will desist from further comment on it.
		
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You must get really stressed by trying to politise without being politicising


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## larmen (Jul 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You only have to look across the pond to see that 99.5% of people dying from Covid have not been vaccinated and states with the highest death rates have the lowest vaccine uptake.
		
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That are actually some really promising numbers showing that vaccines work, right?


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## DRW (Jul 20, 2021)

larmen said:



			That are actually some really promising numbers showing that vaccines work, right?
		
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Some of the England data is pretty good, shown here for the 50 plus (click on link below for some calculations of breakdowns etc-

COVID-19 Actuaries Response Group on Twitter: "In our new blog, @AdeleGroyer compares the vaccination status of hospital admissions in England to the general population. For those aged 50plus, the unvaccinated 5% make up 34% of hospital admissions. 79% of people are fully vaccinated but make up just 43% of admissions. https://t.co/LOqdfiS4KM" / Twitter



Below 50 :-


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2021)

drdel said:



			You must get really stressed by trying to politise without being politicising 

Click to expand...

I do not try and politicise when the issue of consistency and clarity is important to me and impacts me quite significantly - it is not a political or theoretical concern - it is a real and personally impacting concern about which this thread is all about.  That some would rather not have to discuss the root of such confusions is their problem not mine.


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## road2ruin (Jul 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Lots of people, some credible. others less so, have "advised" SAGE. Axon is not, however, on SAGE or any of its known subcommittees, and SAGE appear not to have adopted his ideas. Maybe you should follow their lead, not his self-publicising blogs. He has a sneering attitude that should raise a red flag over his opinions.

Another basic principle of science is that you approach a scientific question with an open mind, some degree of obecjtivity. Axon's fevered blog suggests he has long since abandoned that position. He should therefore be ignored because he is no longer really a scientist, he is a lobbyist.

Dr Steve, Professor at the University of Facebook knows that there is more than the simple mechanics of a sterile lab experiment on particle size to the determination of risk and benefit of masks. Listen to Steve.
		
Click to expand...

I don't read his blog, I read this in a mainstream newspaper.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't read his blog, I read this in a mainstream newspaper.
		
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His website provides some insight into his thinking. Anti-mask and lockdown, not looking for objective truth.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Some of the England data is pretty good, shown here for the 50 plus (click on link below for some calculations of breakdowns etc-

COVID-19 Actuaries Response Group on Twitter: "In our new blog, @AdeleGroyer compares the vaccination status of hospital admissions in England to the general population. For those aged 50plus, the unvaccinated 5% make up 34% of hospital admissions. 79% of people are fully vaccinated but make up just 43% of admissions. https://t.co/LOqdfiS4KM" / Twitter
View attachment 37629


Below 50 :-

View attachment 37630

Click to expand...

I might be missing something here but that first set of graphs is not that great. more % hospitalisations of over 50s double vaxxed than none or one <21 days. That's not a brilliant ad for the vax if I am reading that right...


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## fundy (Jul 20, 2021)

I know its not all about deaths as we are regularly reminded but this is a more encouraging visual representation


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## Whereditgo (Jul 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Sounds reasonable but a decent mask without face fit testing renders them pretty useless, so I would say almost all masks worn by the general public must be considered ineffective.
		
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Not really, not as effective as they could be for certain, but considerably more effective than no mask at all.


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## DRW (Jul 20, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I might be missing something here but that first set of graphs is not that great. more % hospitalisations of over 50s double vaxxed than none or one <21 days. That's not a brilliant ad for the vax if I am reading that right...
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I quite follow as it shows 16% of one dose vaxxed population lead to 23% of hospitalisations, whereas 79% of fully vaxxed of population lead to 43% of hospitalisations in that age group for that time frame, so a much lower percentage.

Are you comparing hospitalisations to cases to guess at effectiveness which you can not do easily from those figures ? I also would guess that the one dose people are likely to be the younger people in that age grouping, so would potentially be less likely to be hospitalised, than the older people who were double jabbed first. The number of cases to population is a figure involved for effectiveness & hospitalisations and a point to note is that there is much lower cases in double jabbed when compared to single jabbed or non jab vs population %, so the double jab is doing a better job at blocking cases completely. There are other factors which would change the figures.

This data will also be a bit noisy to start with, as the numbers(of hospitalisations) involved were fairly low with this report if you read the report.

BTW The vaccine only reduces the risk based on your existing age/conditions risk profile, so for an example a 20 year old non vaxxed person , is less likely to be hospitalised than a fully vaxxed 80 year old (on average). Hospitalisations and deaths are always going to be in the main be in the older/higher risk groups, even if fully vaxxed. We need to accept that is going to be the case 

These graphs are not providing details of effectiveness, as they are not comparing that. If you want that there are PHE reports and there are also reports now coming from Canada that are issued regularly, if it is something that interests you, they detail effectiveness and both countries show all vaccines being super effective at stopping hospitalisations. Can put up the links or prints if interested of those.


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## GreiginFife (Jul 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Not sure I quite follow as it shows 16% of one dose vaxxed population lead to 23% of hospitalisations, whereas 79% of fully vaxxed of population lead to 43% of hospitalisations in that age group for that time frame, so a much lower percentage.

Are you comparing hospitalisations to cases to guess at effectiveness which you can not do easily from those figures ? I also would guess that the one dose people are likely to be the younger people in that age grouping, so would potentially be less likely to be hospitalised, than the older people who were double jabbed first. The number of cases to population is a figure involved for effectiveness & hospitalisations and a point to note is that there is much lower cases in double jabbed when compared to single jabbed or non jab vs population %, so the double jab is doing a better job at blocking cases completely. There are other factors which would change the figures.

This data will also be a bit noisy to start with, as the numbers(of hospitalisations) involved were fairly low with this report if you read the report.

BTW The vaccine only reduces the risk based on your existing age/conditions risk profile, so for an example a 20 year old non vaxxed person , is less likely to be hospitalised than a fully vaxxed 80 year old (on average). Hospitalisations and deaths are always going to be in the main be in the older/higher risk groups, even if fully vaxxed. We need to accept that is going to be the case 

These graphs are not providing details of effectiveness, as they are not comparing that. If you want that there are PHE reports and there are also reports now coming from Canada that are issued regularly, if it is something that interests you, they detail effectiveness and both countries show all vaccines being super effective at stopping hospitalisations. Can put up the links or prints if interested of those.
		
Click to expand...

As I say, I just glanced over it and probably read it wrong.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Some of the England data is pretty good, shown here for the 50 plus (click on link below for some calculations of breakdowns etc-

COVID-19 Actuaries Response Group on Twitter: "In our new blog, @AdeleGroyer compares the vaccination status of hospital admissions in England to the general population. For those aged 50plus, the unvaccinated 5% make up 34% of hospital admissions. 79% of people are fully vaccinated but make up just 43% of admissions. https://t.co/LOqdfiS4KM" / Twitter
View attachment 37629


Below 50 :-

View attachment 37630

Click to expand...


To boil it down a bit, 5% of the population over 50 are unvaccinated and contribute 34% of admissions, 79% over 50 are double vaccinated and contribute 43% of admissions
Under 50 46% unvax'd contribute 87% of admissions, 21% under 50 double vac'd contribute 4%.

So in the over 50 group, vaccination reduces risk of hospitalisation from 34/5 (6.8:1) to 50/79 (0.63:1). That is a 91% reduction.
Under 50, 87/46 is 1.89:1 (so right away you see the effect of age on risk), 4/21 is 0.19, so 90% reduction.

One vax is somewhere in the middle.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Not sure I quite follow as it shows 16% of one dose vaxxed population lead to 23% of hospitalisations, whereas 79% of fully vaxxed of population lead to 43% of hospitalisations in that age group for that time frame, so a much lower percentage.

Are you comparing hospitalisations to cases to guess at effectiveness which you can not do easily from those figures ? I also would guess that the one dose people are likely to be the younger people in that age grouping, so would potentially be less likely to be hospitalised, than the older people who were double jabbed first. The number of cases to population is a figure involved for effectiveness & hospitalisations and a point to note is that there is much lower cases in double jabbed when compared to single jabbed or non jab vs population %, so the double jab is doing a better job at blocking cases completely. There are other factors which would change the figures.

This data will also be a bit noisy to start with, as the numbers(of hospitalisations) involved were fairly low with this report if you read the report.

BTW The vaccine only reduces the risk based on your existing age/conditions risk profile, so for an example a 20 year old non vaxxed person , is less likely to be hospitalised than a fully vaxxed 80 year old (on average). Hospitalisations and deaths are always going to be in the main be in the older/higher risk groups, even if fully vaxxed. We need to accept that is going to be the case 

These graphs are not providing details of effectiveness, as they are not comparing that. If you want that there are PHE reports and there are also reports now coming from Canada that are issued regularly, if it is something that interests you, they detail effectiveness and both countries show all vaccines being super effective at stopping hospitalisations. Can put up the links or prints if interested of those.
		
Click to expand...

See my analysis above. The vax definitely works. 

You are right that age is a massive driver of admission risk. An older person who gets Covid despite vaccination may still have a mild rot moderate illness, but added to their respiratory or renal condition, may be enough to put them in hospital, but it probably won't put them in ICU. Without the vax it may have been enough to put them in the ground. Younger people have a lot more reserve to absorb the effects of a mild to moderate illness without hospitalisation.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Not really, not as effective as they could be for certain, but considerably more effective than no mask at all.
		
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I was hoping this mask debate would, ahem, fade and die, but it shows continued life, and I fear may be immortal.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I was hoping this mask debate would, ahem, fade and die, but it shows continued life, and I fear may be immortal.
		
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What can I say? Through my work in the Asbestos industry I know about masks. 

Anyway you might want to get yourself checked, I think you have caught a dose of Dr Axon’s “Sneering attitude” 😂😂😂


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## Backache (Jul 20, 2021)

Whereditgo said:



			Not really, not as effective as they could be for certain, but considerably more effective than no mask at all.
		
Click to expand...

Individually they are quite likely to  be efficient. Fit testing does not make a mask work it just measures it.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			What can I say? Through my work in the Asbestos industry I know about masks.

Anyway you might want to get yourself checked, I think you have caught a dose of Dr Axon’s “Sneering attitude” 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Well you have certainly been caught in his gullible follower net. Axon is a raging self-publicist, but you don't know who I am at all. Hardly self-publicising. Axon had a go at doctors in his piece, presumably because his arguments couldn't stand on their own legs. 

Sorry if I am impatient with stupid and spurious arguments, especially when repeated as if that somehow makes them better. It doesn't.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well you have certainly been caught in his gullible follower net. Axon is a raging self-publicist, but you don't know who I am at all. Hardly self-publicising. Axon had a go at doctors in his piece, presumably because his arguments couldn't stand on their own legs.

Sorry if I am impatient with stupid and spurious arguments, especially when repeated as if that somehow makes them better. It doesn't.
		
Click to expand...

Seeing you accuse someone of having a sneering attitude did make me chuckle. You do have some balls i'll give you that 😂😂😂😂


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## BiMGuy (Jul 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			What can I say? Through my work in the Asbestos industry I know about masks.

Anyway you might want to get yourself checked, I think you have caught a dose of Dr Axon’s “Sneering attitude” 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Why bother with all the effort of getting properly fitted masks. Sticking your head in a ceiling void full of asbestos wearing a home made face covering will be fine.


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## funkycoldmedina (Jul 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why bother with all the effort of getting properly fitted masks. Sticking your head in a ceiling void full of asbestos wearing a home made face covering will be fine.
		
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Two completely different situations and use of a mask. One is for stopping things coming in (asbestos) the other is for preventing projection (Covid).
I have worked in both healthcare and asbestos industries so I also have 'some knowledge' of what I'm talking about. 100% reduction in projection of breath particles is optimum but 50% is better than nothing because it reduces viral load.
One thing this pandemic is the little knowledge some people feel they have can be a dangerous thing.
Also what the Telegraph are doing by signposting the Dr of engineering as some font of mask knowledge mirrors the "white coating" the tobacco and climate change deniers did.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Seeing you accuse someone of having a sneering attitude did make me chuckle. You do have some balls i'll give you that 😂😂😂😂
		
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Why do you care? You said that you will never wear a mask again, so you obviously don't give (mod edit) about anybody and are quite prepared to pass on a lethal virus. I will take precisely zero lectures from you.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 20, 2021)

As far as I'm concerned nothing has changed - except I have to rake a bunker and CAN (but so far haven't) removed a pin. Avoiding close contact indoors and wearing a mask. Popped into a shop today and every customer wearing a mask.

Felt most uncomfortable at county match yesterday as we were told no masks required in clubhouse and 16 of us at very close quarters for lunch and tea. Mind you if the virus doesn't like hot temperatures it would struggle in there - more like a flipping sauna.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Why do you care? You said that you will never wear a mask again, so you obviously don't give (mod edit) about anybody and are quite prepared to pass on a lethal virus. I will take precisely zero lectures from you.
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps you will take one from me

Your input on this thread is invaluable, but if you continue to lose your rag, then it’s not going to end well
@theoneandonly you would do well to back off too


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## jim8flog (Jul 20, 2021)

So I walked in to the changing rooms and a guy in there (I know him well) says- " Jim I thought you would be wearing a mask"
- I quipped  "I find it hard to take a bite out of a sandwich wearing one" showing him what was in my hand.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 20, 2021)

My insider on the nightclub double-vax certification front advises that clubs will just get on with it, whether it’s the right thing to do or not maybe in the short term OK - longer term who knows.  But one thing is certain…the clubs will need to hire additional door security to deal with the hassle and trouble that WILL break out when, for instance, one of a group is refused entry.  What often tends to happen is that the whole group kicks off and things are usually exacerbated by alcohol. 

However the clubs and those who work in them have felt, and have actually been, so neglected during the pandemic that they will open and deal with it, but they won’t be requiring masks to be worn, they need everyone through the door that they can get to try and clear their debts and cover the additional costs. 

Make money?  Well maybe…but that isn’t going to be their primary objective…they just want to be able to stand up again and wash their face on income and costs.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Perhaps you will take one from me

Your input on this thread is invaluable, but if you continue to lose your rag, then it’s not going to end well
@theoneandonly you would do well to back off too
		
Click to expand...

You could have changed it to '"two hoots"!

Rag wasn't lost at all.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well you have certainly been caught in his gullible follower net. Axon is a raging self-publicist, but you don't know who I am at all. Hardly self-publicising. Axon had a go at doctors in his piece, presumably because his arguments couldn't stand on their own legs. 

Sorry if I am impatient with stupid and spurious arguments, especially when repeated as if that somehow makes them better. It doesn't.
		
Click to expand...


I have never heard of Dr Axon until I read his name on here and saw your pot/kettle/black description and it tickled me. 
You have been getting away with murder on this thread because of your expertise so the sooner the virus dies out win/win for the forum I think.


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## Ethan (Jul 20, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I have never heard of Dr Axon until I read his name on here and saw your pot/kettle/black description and it tickled me.
You have been getting away with murder on this thread because of your expertise so the sooner the virus dies out win/win for the forum I think.
		
Click to expand...

I am well used to being trolled by people like you once they run out of something coherent to say. Haven't murdered anybody, yet.


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## road2ruin (Jul 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am well used to being trolled by people like you once they run out of something coherent to say. Haven't murdered anybody, yet.
		
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The thing is I don’t think anyone here is particularly trolling you. People have views which differ to your own and you simply cannot accept that and you resort to patronising and being condescending to people.

In my mind trolling someone is taking an opposite viewpoint that is clearly wrong just for the sake of getting a rise however with the subject of masks there is no right or wrong answer. Many different medical agencies have flipped between ‘they’re good’, ‘they make no difference’ and back again and despite being 18 months into this whole thing there is no firm evidence on either side which, in my mind, shows that the benefits are marginal (at best) and so does not warrant the tone you take with people who dare disagree with you. I would have assumed that, being a man of science, you would only take such an entrenched view if the evidence was overwhelming however it’s clearly not.


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## Backache (Jul 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The thing is I don’t think anyone here is particularly trolling you. People have views which differ to your own and you simply cannot accept that and you resort to patronising and being condescending to people.

In my mind trolling someone is taking an opposite viewpoint that is clearly wrong just for the sake of getting a rise however with the subject of masks there is no right or wrong answer. Many different medical agencies have flipped between ‘they’re good’, ‘they make no difference’ and back again and despite being 18 months into this whole thing there is no firm evidence on either side which, in my mind, shows that the benefits are marginal (at best) and so does not warrant the tone you take with people who dare disagree with you. I would have assumed that, being a man of science, you would only take such an entrenched view if the evidence was overwhelming however it’s clearly not.
		
Click to expand...

I don't want to enter into a spat but the central medical advice has not flipped back and forth it has essentially changed once. At the begining of the pandemic there was no recommendation for masks in most places , the evidence was not strong and masks were required badly in hospitals as PPE was in short supply.
Since then most medical bodies have advocated mask wearing in most countries because the evidence has grown during the pandemic as it has been researched further.
Requirements have been dropped in some places as numbers have decreased but the evidence behind the efficacy of mask wearing has grown during the pandemic.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The thing is I don’t think anyone here is particularly trolling you. People have views which differ to your own and you simply cannot accept that and you resort to patronising and being condescending to people.

In my mind trolling someone is taking an opposite viewpoint that is clearly wrong just for the sake of getting a rise however with the subject of masks there is no right or wrong answer. Many different medical agencies have flipped between ‘they’re good’, ‘they make no difference’ and back again and despite being 18 months into this whole thing there is no firm evidence on either side which, in my mind, shows that the benefits are marginal (at best) and so does not warrant the tone you take with people who dare disagree with you. I would have assumed that, being a man of science, you would only take such an entrenched view if the evidence was overwhelming however it’s clearly not.
		
Click to expand...

The evidence for masks has moved from being a bit doubtful to being fairly clearly of benefit, and also posing no risk whatsoever, so a strong benefit-risk. That evidence has included epidemiological evidence, specific testing and the observation of the bleeding obvious. Medical agencies, whatever they are, have not been flipping back and forth. That is simply false. 

Political organisations have prevaricated in the extent to which they are willing to require masks because of the response of their constituents. That is precisely why this recent requirement has stopped in the UK - Tory backbenchers, who couldn't care less about science. That is very different. Your conclusion that this means they are marginal (at best) is not what most respectable medical bodies think.

Opinions are opinions and facts are facts, and some people confuse the two. I disagree my view is entrenched, which always implies basically wrong but unchangeable. The people who boldly declare that they will never wear a mask again are those with a fundmentalist view.


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## Dannyc (Jul 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The thing is I don’t think anyone here is particularly trolling you. People have views which differ to your own and you simply cannot accept that and you resort to patronising and being condescending to people.

In my mind trolling someone is taking an opposite viewpoint that is clearly wrong just for the sake of getting a rise however with the subject of masks there is no right or wrong answer. Many different medical agencies have flipped between ‘they’re good’, ‘they make no difference’ and back again and despite being 18 months into this whole thing there is no firm evidence on either side which, in my mind, shows that the benefits are marginal (at best) and so does not warrant the tone you take with people who dare disagree with you. I would have assumed that, being a man of science, you would only take such an entrenched view if the evidence was overwhelming however it’s clearly not.
		
Click to expand...

What a load of tosh


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## Dannyc (Jul 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The evidence for masks has moved from being a bit doubtful to being fairly clearly of benefit, and also posing no risk whatsoever, so a strong benefit-risk. That evidence has included epidemiological evidence, specific testing and the observation of the bleeding obvious. Medical agencies, whatever they are, have not been flipping back and forth. That is simply false.

Political organisations have prevaricated in the extent to which they are willing to require masks because of the response of their constituents. That is precisely why this recent requirement has stopped in the UK - Tory backbenchers, who couldn't care less about science. That is very different. Your conclusion that this means they are marginal (at best) is not what most respectable medical bodies think.

Opinions are opinions and facts are facts, and some people confuse the two. I disagree my view is entrenched, which always implies basically wrong but unchangeable. The people who boldly declare that they will never wear a mask again are those with a fundmentalist view.
		
Click to expand...

Anyone with half a brain cell mate will understand that masks will help with stopping u spreading a disease through your mouth I don’t need science to tell me that


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## Dannyc (Jul 21, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Perhaps you will take one from me

Your input on this thread is invaluable, but if you continue to lose your rag, then it’s not going to end well
@theoneandonly you would do well to back off too
		
Click to expand...

It’s not going to end well 😂


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			Anyone with half a brain cell mate will understand that masks will help with stopping u spreading a disease through your mouth I don’t need science to tell me that
		
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Well, it seems that a lot of people don't even have that half a brain cell, then, and are proud of it!


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## road2ruin (Jul 21, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			What a load of tosh
		
Click to expand...

Terrific insight, cheers.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The thing is I don’t think anyone here is particularly trolling you. People have views which differ to your own and you simply cannot accept that and you resort to patronising and being condescending to people.

In my mind trolling someone is taking an opposite viewpoint that is clearly wrong just for the sake of getting a rise however with the subject of masks there is no right or wrong answer. Many different medical agencies have flipped between ‘they’re good’, ‘they make no difference’ and back again and despite being 18 months into this whole thing there is no firm evidence on either side which, in my mind, shows that the benefits are marginal (at best) and so does not warrant the tone you take with people who dare disagree with you. I would have assumed that, being a man of science, you would only take such an entrenched view if the evidence was overwhelming however it’s clearly not.
		
Click to expand...

It seems as if your view on masks is driven by a personal wish not to wear one and not logic.  If you don't want to wear them then that's your choice but please accept it as that.


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## road2ruin (Jul 21, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems as if your view on masks is driven by a personal wish not to wear one and not logic.  If you don't want to wear them then that's your choice but please accept it as that.
		
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I actually don't particularly care either way, wearing a mask is no great hardship and I've been to do the school run and done the supermarket and been masked up on both occasions. My personal feeling is that the majority that are being worn just don't do the job and don't particularly stop the spread however I still wouldn't put myself in the 'anti-mask' group.


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## larmen (Jul 21, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			Anyone with half a brain cell mate will understand that masks will help with stopping u spreading a disease through your mouth I don’t need science to tell me that
		
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Don’t forget about the nose. I rather have people not wearing a mask than feeling smug and doing it wrongly.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 21, 2021)




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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



View attachment 37651

Click to expand...

Yep there are loads planned

But Mrs Colch says you can’t go 🤭


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## Hobbit (Jul 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



View attachment 37651

Click to expand...

There’s been quite a few (un)dress rehearsals. Sorry you couldn’t be there


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## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2021)

Ive noticed mask wearing seems much the same as before in places I've been to.

Which was nice!


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## D-S (Jul 21, 2021)

Just had an email from Bluegreen, a firm that owns and runs a lot of golf courses in France. It says that further to the recent French Government decree, in order to access their courses you will either have to show a vaccination passport (QR code), a negative test or a recent positive test recovery.
Macron’s firm line in trying to get everyone vaccinated seems to be permeating many aspects of life.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 21, 2021)

Not so nice!


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## AmandaJR (Jul 21, 2021)

I enrolled in a study for medical detection dogs and basically sent them some stinky covid clothing and a mask they provided. The study results have been published and it looks amazingly effective (to my untrained eye). 

We are delighted to announce that the results from our COVID-19 detection dog study have been released, and we are incredibly pleased with the results. As a volunteer, we wanted to take this opportunity to say a massive thank you for donating your odour samples to the study, and for helping us to promote the work. We had more than 3,500 participants from the public, and we could not have done this without every single one of you! Thank you! Here are some of the key highlights from the study:
•Chemical analysis showed that COVID-19 does indeed have a distinct odour.
•Six Bio Detection dogs were trained by Medical Detection Dogs to detect it with exceptional speed and accuracy of up to 94%, even if a person is asymptomatic!
•Impressively, the accuracy of the dogs remained consistent not only with samples collected from people with high amounts of virus, but also low amounts of virus (e.g. people who might not have any symptoms or at the early stage of infection), which a lateral flow test cannot do.
•Mathematical modelling revealed that a strategy of dog screening plus a PCR test at airports could prevent more onward transmission than isolating symptomatic people only, or testing people with a lateral flow test plus a PCR test.

Our incredible results - 
Dogs can correctly identify up to 94% of people who have the virus (sensitivity). 
Dogs can correctly identify up to 92% of people who do not have the virus (specificity) 
We’re  hugely  excited  by  the  potential  of  dogs  as  a  low-cost,  rapid,  non-invasive  screen  for  COVID-19 – they are the quickest diagnostic that currently exists! In fact, a plane load of passengers can be screened by a dog without any extra time added to their journey. That’s 300 people in under 30 minutes, by two dogs.
Now we have proven dogs can do this, our next step is to get the dogs into practice by running operational trials to test the dogs on screening infected people in real-world settings. We  will  also  perform  further  modelling  studies  to  inform  the  use  of  dogs  at  other  venues  including stadia, sporting events, music events and work places. You can read the pre-print paper for the study at https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/media/49791 (please note, it is not yet peer-reviewed). 

Flipping heck dogs are clever


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## larmen (Jul 21, 2021)

First day in the office, I don’t like commuting.

Way in was fine, empty train at 6:50, empty tube later on as well. There might have been a couple of not masked up people on it, but everyone had space.

Way back was different. Fairly full tube, family come on all no mask, mum having a badge showing she is except, back of badge says please be considerate and hold distance. She plonked herself right next to an elderly woman and starts sneezing. Doesn’t the distance thing work both ways?
Train then reasonably full, everyone sitting but distanced. Masks were off a lot, but it was hot.

Next office visit in a week, hopefully I got my CBT at that point.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 21, 2021)

Went to the pub on the way back from dog walk. No need to mess about with table service, oreded at the bar,  no mask. Lovely.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My insider on the nightclub double-vax certification front advises that clubs will just get on with it, whether it’s the right thing to do or not maybe in the short term OK - longer term who knows.  But one thing is certain…the clubs will need to hire additional door security to deal with the hassle and trouble that WILL break out when, for instance, one of a group is refused entry.  What often tends to happen is that the whole group kicks off and things are usually exacerbated by alcohol. 

However the clubs and those who work in them have felt, and have actually been, so neglected during the pandemic that they will open and deal with it, but they won’t be requiring masks to be worn, they need everyone through the door that they can get to try and clear their debts and cover the additional costs. 

Make money?  Well maybe…but that isn’t going to be their primary objective…they just want to be able to stand up again and wash their face on income and costs.
		
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Ok, I reckon you are right.
But ,tell me, yes or no, (as the lawyers say😊)
If the law on masks had stayed the same, and the nightclubs, cinemas and theatres opened, as they have,
 would your scenario above been any different- in reality?

I think not.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 22, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Went to the pub on the way back from dog walk. No need to mess about with table service, oreded at the bar,  no mask. Lovely.[/QUOTE

Hmm, reminds me of Dads army, and the brilliant Le Mesurier. "Do you think that's wise?,"
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2021)

Pandemic…Pingdemic…Pleeeaze…

It’s not the app and what it tells us that’s the problem - the app has been with us since the middle of last year with no great problem.  It’s the daily number of infections and the rise in that number that we are experiencing that’s the problem.  

So let’s not be scapegoating the app. Let’s focus on the root cause and what we as individuals must do to minimise the rate of increase.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Ok, I reckon you are right.
But ,tell me, yes or no, (as the lawyers say😊)
If the law on masks had stayed the same, and the nightclubs, cinemas and theatres opened, as they have,
would your scenario above been any different- in reality?

I think not.
		
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My insider with his ear to the ground tells that many under 30s consider the double-vax requirement too government proscriptive and are pushing back - indeed many will bite off their nose to spite their face and not go into clubs or other venues.  And the same would have been the case with masks.  There would not have been a hope in hell of mandating mask-wearing in clubs and enforcing it.

As the government _hasn’t_ mandated mask wearing indoors, club-goers will not wear a mask, and as no limit on numbers as been defined, the clubs will open and cram in as many as they can - because they are frankly not convinced they are going to be open for very long.


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## drdel (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My insider with his ear to the ground tells that many under 30s consider the double-vax requirement too government proscriptive and are pushing back - indeed many will bite off their nose to spite their face and not go into clubs or other venues.  And the same would have been the case with masks.  There would not have been a hope in hell of mandating mask-wearing in clubs and enforcing it.

As the government _hasn’t_ mandated mask wearing indoors, club-goers will not wear a mask, and as no limit on numbers as been defined, the clubs will open and cram in as many as they can - because they are frankly not convinced they are going to be open for very long.
		
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On that basis you're going to "let the prisoners design the prison".


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## GB72 (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My insider with his ear to the ground tells that many under 30s consider the double-vax requirement too government proscriptive and are pushing back - indeed many will bite off their nose to spite their face and not go into clubs or other venues.  And the same would have been the case with masks.  There would not have been a hope in hell of mandating mask-wearing in clubs and enforcing it.

As the government _hasn’t_ mandated mask wearing indoors, club-goers will not wear a mask, and as no limit on numbers as been defined, the clubs will open and cram in as many as they can - because they are frankly not convinced they are going to be open for very long.
		
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isn't that a self fulfilling prophecy though, we are worried about being closed due to the spread of covid and so we will cram as many in as we can in a short time, thus exacerbating the spread of covid and causing the event that had them so worried.


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## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My insider with his ear to the ground tells that many under 30s consider the double-vax requirement too government proscriptive and are pushing back - indeed many will bite off their nose to spite their face and not go into clubs or other venues.  And the same would have been the case with masks.  There would not have been a hope in hell of mandating mask-wearing in clubs and enforcing it.

As the government _hasn’t_ mandated mask wearing indoors, club-goers will not wear a mask, and as no limit on numbers as been defined, the clubs will open and cram in as many as they can - because they are frankly not convinced they are going to be open for very long.
		
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I know this might sound a little simplistic but nightclubs do have rules on what you wear to gain entry. Even your behaviour in the queue can have a bearing on getting in. I find your comment about clubs not being able to enforce rules rather puerile. Why do you believe they can’t enforce a rule they make?

As for your govt hasn’t mandated Comment… Everyone has been given guidance. If they’re stupid enough, or not adult enough, to follow it….


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## GB72 (Jul 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I know this might sound a little simplistic but nightclubs do have rules on what you wear to gain entry. Even your behaviour in the queue can have a bearing on getting in. I find your comment about clubs not being able to enforce rules rather puerile. Why do you believe they can’t enforce a rule they make?

As for your govt hasn’t mandated Comment… Everyone has been given guidance. If they’re stupid enough, or not adult enough, to follow it….
		
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A fair point, out of all industries, nightclubs must be the one most experienced in the removal of people for not complying with rules or refusing admission.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My insider with his ear to the ground tells that many under 30s consider the double-vax requirement too government proscriptive and are pushing back - indeed many will bite off their nose to spite their face and not go into clubs or other venues.  And the same would have been the case with masks.  There would not have been a hope in hell of mandating mask-wearing in clubs and enforcing it.

As the government _hasn’t_ mandated mask wearing indoors, club-goers will not wear a mask, and as no limit on numbers as been defined, the clubs will open and cram in as many as they can - because they are frankly not convinced they are going to be open for very long.
		
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Club goers won’t wear masks because masks in a nightclub makes the club cease to be a nightclub and makes it an unattractive place to go for overpriced drink. 
Might as well just go to a bar or spoons. 
Certain clubs will play music with an increased BPM that attracts clientele that want to dance all night and with that requires a few stimulants. Certainly cannot wear a mask jumping about and chewing your face off. 

They won’t be open long no. The irreversible was always reversible.


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## drdel (Jul 22, 2021)

We have had infectious illnesses for decades and most parents taught their children basic hygiene znd how reduce the chances of passing it on.

OK so COVID 19 is a particularly nasty disease which needs rather more care but why do people suddenly loose all sense of prudent behaviour and expect to be told what's right by laws.

Nightclubs are not the be all and end all of socialising and a minute part of the economy beyond a few cities.


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## GB72 (Jul 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			We have had infectious illnesses for decades and most parents taught their children basic hygiene znd how reduce the chances of passing it on.

OK so COVID 19 is a particularly nasty disease which needs rather more care but why do people suddenly loose all sense of prudent behaviour and expect to be told what's right by laws.

Nightclubs are not the be all and end all of socialising and a minute part of the economy beyond a few cities.
		
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But nightclubs and music venues had dozens of high profile performers with massive social media followings telling the world how unfair it was that they had to close. The only positive is that they are being remarkably quiet now that their cries to open clubs, venues and festivals is now out of line wiht a lot of the public and totally in liine with government decisions.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 22, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Club goers won’t wear masks because masks in a nightclub makes the club cease to be a nightclub and makes it an unattractive place to go for overpriced drink. 
Might as well just go to a bar or spoons. 
Certain clubs will play music with an increased BPM that attracts clientele that want to dance all night and with that requires a few stimulants. Certainly cannot wear a mask jumping about and chewing your face off. 

They won’t be open long no. The irreversible was always reversible.
		
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Exactly!. Club goers will not wear masks. Those that think the clubs can demand they be worn ( on condition of entry, say) and think they will be worn during their patrons stay are being naive. Fuelled up clubbers are not going to wear the masks.
Same for cinemas and theatres. One forummer   who goes to the cinema frequently it seems, has recently recounted what he saw , which was masks taken off when the bums went on the seats. And that was before the change  in the law.
Also, nowhere much has there been enforcement of the law re masks by shopkeepers, petrol stations, etc etc ( understandably).
It has been the law, but a law left to people's choice .
So the reality of what would happen if nightclubs , cinemas ,theatres  opened and masks were required by law, was recognised by the government . They had no doubt been told by the police that enforcement of that law would not be practical. There would be the likelihood of large scale disorder if efforts were made to enforce it.  And no doubt they thought the Press would be ready and waiting.
Hence the change from law to advice.
No good tut tutting about allowing lawbreaking etc etc. You try being the Police inspector with ten men (tops) trying to do that at midnight on Friday in almost any city centre. Journos with cameras all set for the ensuing mayhem, etc etc.
Do not think the above puts me in the "I support no masks" camp, because it doesn't.
I believe that masks should be worn in the circumstances as they have been up to now. I continue to do so myself, even in the clubhouse bar whilst buying a drink( which I take outside )
The advice is that they should be.  That does not make those giving that advice, but who have decided it isn't to be made unlawful not to do so, supporters of not wearing masks to protect and be protected.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2021)

GB72 said:



			A fair point, out of all industries, nightclubs must be the one most experienced in the removal of people for not complying with rules or refusing admission.
		
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That's right. I tried to get in a night club once and the bouncer wouldn't let me in without a tie, I told him I didn't have one and he said surely I could improvise something.  I looked through the car and only had a set of jump leads so put them around my neck.

The Bouncer said he would let me in this time as long as 'I didn't try and start anything'. 😉


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			We have had infectious illnesses for decades and most parents taught their children basic hygiene znd how reduce the chances of passing it on.

OK so COVID 19 is a particularly nasty disease which needs rather more care but why do people suddenly loose all sense of prudent behaviour and expect to be told what's right by laws.

Nightclubs are not the be all and end all of socialising and a minute part of the economy beyond a few cities.
		
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If the Great British Public is so adapt at infection control, then why are we having a 3rd wave? 
Is it because the unvaccinated are mingling?

Surely not 🙄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I know this might sound a little simplistic but nightclubs do have rules on what you wear to gain entry. Even your behaviour in the queue can have a bearing on getting in. I find your comment about clubs not being able to enforce rules rather puerile. Why do you believe they can’t enforce a rule they make?

As for your govt hasn’t mandated Comment… Everyone has been given guidance. If they’re stupid enough, or not adult enough, to follow it….
		
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Fact is simply that clubs and venues won’t try and mandate something that they are not required to mandate and that might impact their numbers.  Plus if a club was to try and implement masks as a condition of entry or try and enforce proof of double vax they know things will most likely kick off (though I guess some clubs will try enforcement of DV in Sept when it becomes required); the police will not like it at all, and there is a risk if too much trouble that the club will be shut down.  In any case clubs don’t have to implement double vax entry until September - they won’t implement one now when they don’t have to.

The nightclubs consider that they have suffered enough, and so are likely to risk letting in any that can’t prove double vax when that becomes required - what sort of check could police or public health officials do on a crowd in any case - and they are just going to make as much hay as they can whilst the sun shines.  They frankly have no other option. Things might turn out otherwise…however…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2021)

GB72 said:



			isn't that a self fulfilling prophecy though, we are worried about being closed due to the spread of covid and so we will cram as many in as we can in a short time, thus exacerbating the spread of covid and causing the event that had them so worried.
		
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It is.  But given we are in an exponential growth situation with the delta variant in any case, I’m not sure that nightclubs are going to make things any worse than they ultimately will be - thought they might get to the 100,000-200,000 a day figure a little quicker.


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## Hobbit (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fact is simply that clubs and venues won’t try and mandate something that they are not required to mandate and that might impact their numbers.  Plus if a club was to try and implement masks as a condition of entry or try and enforce proof of double vax they know things will most likely kick off (though I guess some clubs will try enforcement of DV in Sept when it becomes required); the police will not like it at all, and there is a risk if too much trouble that the club will be shut down.  In any case clubs don’t have to implement double vax entry until September - they won’t implement one now when they don’t have to.

The nightclubs consider that they have suffered enough, and so are likely to risk letting in any that can’t prove double vax when that becomes required - what sort of check could police or public health officials do on a crowd in any case - and they are just going to make as much hay as they can whilst the sun shines.  They frankly have no other option. Things might turn out otherwise…however…
		
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So you say, but I refer you back to my post on it, nightclubs have enforced their rules of entry for years. If they wanted to be socially responsible they’d do the same with this. And in that respect it is the nightclubs that will be at fault for any infections sourced back to their establishments.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is.  But given we are in an exponential growth situation with the delta variant in any case, I’m not sure that nightclubs are going to make things any worse than they ultimately will be - thought they might get to the 100,000-200,000 a day figure a little quicker.
		
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Currently it's not having exponential growth, the numbers seem to have stalled at near 50k at the moment.  They may well increase though.


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## Ethan (Jul 22, 2021)

Eric Clapton is trying to extend his range beyond racism (he was the stimulus for Rock Against Racism). Won't play venues where vax cert is required. Good, he can join Van, Ian Brown and Richard Ashcroft and [I'll paraphrase as 'take a hike'].


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## Slime (Jul 22, 2021)

I was in Sainsbury's this morning doing the weekly shop for my old mum.
Try as I might, I saw nobody at all without a mask except for a couple of small children.
I felt heartened.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

Guy at work got a call yesterday from one his friends who decided to go on holiday to Spain 

3 days into his holiday he got covid 

He is in isolation in a hotel 

He isn't allowed to drink, smoke or go on the balcony

He is allowed one food delivery a week, all the rest is provided.. which looked horrid when he sent some videos through 

10 days in there 

Then has to pay for new flights home 

And people want to go on holiday? Lol 🤣


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Guy at work got a call yesterday from one his friends who decided to go on holiday to Spain 

3 days into his holiday he got covid 

He is in isolation in a hotel 

He isn't allowed to drink, smoke or go on the balcony

He is allowed one food delivery a week, all the rest is provided.. which looked horrid when he sent some videos through 

10 days in there 

Then has to pay for new flights home 

And people want to go on holiday? Lol 🤣
		
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“Staycations”  wood cladded static caravans and winter stays at centre parcs for me for a couple of years at least. 
Don’t need the added stress or restrictions.


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## GB72 (Jul 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			“Staycations”  wood cladded static caravans and winter stays at centre parcs for me for a couple of years at least.
Don’t need the added stress or restrictions.
		
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Can understand that. Couple of places I want to get back to have a lot of american visitors and every other post on the hotels' facebook page is from someone from the US asking how they avoid having to do this, or how they can get away with that or what happens if they just ignore the restrictions in place. I am sure us Brits are as bad but the Americans seem to take travel restrictions as an affront and any regulations put in place for their safety and the safety of others as an attack on their lieberties and rights as a US citizen.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			“Staycations”  wood cladded static caravans and winter stays at centre parcs for me for a couple of years at least.
Don’t need the added stress or restrictions.
		
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With the pack of kids I don't think I'll venture abroad for 5 years lol


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## larmen (Jul 23, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			“Staycations”  wood cladded static caravans and winter stays at centre parcs for me for a couple of years at least. 
Don’t need the added stress or restrictions.
		
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We did a caravan holiday about a month ago. Was quite good, better than expected. Would do centre parks as well, but we had our last one cancelled eventually and rebooking it was double the price.


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## larmen (Jul 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



Eric Clapton is trying to extend his range beyond racism (he was the stimulus for Rock Against Racism). Won't play venues where vax cert is required. Good, he can join Van, Ian Brown and Richard Ashcroft and [I'll paraphrase as 'take a hike'].
		
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I think his target audience are likely double vaccinated for a while now. At least in this country.

US is different. His audience there is probably a little vaccine hesitant.

We need Little Mix, Ed Sheeran, … to only play vaccine checked gigs to push the younger ones.


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## Ethan (Jul 23, 2021)

larmen said:



			I think his target audience are likely double vaccinated for a while now. At least in this country.

US is different. His audience there is probably a little vaccine hesitant.

We need Little Mix, Ed Sheeran, … to only play vaccine checked gigs to push the younger ones.
		
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I think the US is changing a bit. Some of the Republicans are softening their previous anti-vax views, although they are wary of the Trumpish culture war implications. More than a few Covid deniers have been proven fatally wrong. It turns out God (of whom there may be many, or none) is not a reliable protection against the virus.


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## SatchFan (Jul 23, 2021)




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## Canfordhacker (Jul 23, 2021)

So I nursed (read skivvied for) my wife and daughter for 10 days after they were both tested positive. I tested negative throughout. 5 days after we finished isolation I got a cough and tested positive, so we have another period to go through. No serious impacts thankfully (feels like a summer cold), but it has meant postponing the semi final of our winter pairs knockout!!!

Worst thing is I have lost all sense of taste and smell. Tried a glass of malt last night - nothing. Nada. Zip. Rien. Hope it comes back soon!!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 23, 2021)

Canfordhacker said:



			So I nursed (read skivvied for) my wife and daughter for 10 days after they were both tested positive. I tested negative throughout. 5 days after we finished isolation I got a cough and tested positive, so we have another period to go through. No serious impacts thankfully (feels like a summer cold), but it has meant postponing the semi final of our winter pairs knockout!!!

Worst thing is I have lost all sense of taste and smell. Tried a glass of malt last night - nothing. Nada. Zip. Rien. Hope it comes back soon!!!
		
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I hope they are returning the courtesy in terms of care 😁. Good job you weren't dismissive. 

Keep well 👍


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## road2ruin (Jul 23, 2021)

A bit of positive news on the case numbers front with numbers down for the fourth consecutive day with 36,000 logged which is down from 46,000 odd on the 20th July. 

Looks like another of Professor Dooms predictions of 200,000 per day is heading down the swanny.


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## need_my_wedge (Jul 23, 2021)

larmen said:



			We did a caravan holiday about a month ago. Was quite good, better than expected. Would do centre parks as well, but we had our last one cancelled eventually and rebooking it was double the price.
		
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Not been in a caravan since a scarred holiday as a kid some 50 years ago. Heading up to Dornoch in September, our normal Airbnb spot already taken, have resorted to booking a static caravan 😳


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 23, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Not been in a caravan since a scarred holiday as a kid some 50 years ago. Heading up to Dornoch in September, our normal Airbnb spot already taken, have resorted to booking a static caravan 😳
		
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Statics are a world of difference from the caravans of 50yrs ago. They really are very nice now and I wouldn't worry about staying in one 👍


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## larmen (Jul 24, 2021)

They are basically 2 bedroom flats that can wobble a bit.
Just like a normal 2 bedroom flat in this country ;-)

It was bigger than my partners apartment in London. The kitchen was a bit limited but enough to make pasta and breakfast.

Take your own salt, dish soap and sponge, … . You can but everything on side, but it’s probably cheaper just to take a little with you.


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## road2ruin (Jul 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			A bit of positive news on the case numbers front with numbers down for the fourth consecutive day with 36,000 logged which is down from 46,000 odd on the 20th July.

Looks like another of Professor Dooms predictions of 200,000 per day is heading down the swanny.
		
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Shade under 32,000 new cases today, yet another day dropping so going in the right direction.


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## williamalex1 (Jul 24, 2021)

larmen said:



			They are basically 2 bedroom flats that can wobble a bit.
Just like a normal 2 bedroom flat in this country ;-)

It was bigger than my partners apartment in London. The kitchen was a bit limited but enough to make pasta and breakfast.

Take your own salt, dish soap and sponge, … . You can but everything on side, but it’s probably cheaper just to take a little with you.
		
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Don't come Knockin when the caravan is rocking  , Oh the memories? Lol


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2021)

I was out in Newcastle last night for a Chinese. Lovely too 😁. Signs in the restaurant asking for masks to be worn. We wore them but others didn't. It jarred but that was our issue, we need to psychologically adjust. 

Tonight we went to a pub where we live for a drink. We walked in with masks but we were the only ones walking around with them. I felt daft and so took it off, as did others in our group. It felt nice to be honest. 

My default will still be to wear masks in places but if others are not then I'm not going to be the only one. I'm getting the vibe that daytime will be masks on, nights out will be masks off.


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## Billysboots (Jul 24, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was out in Newcastle last night for a Chinese. Lovely too 😁. Signs in the restaurant asking for masks to be worn. We wore them but others didn't. It jarred but that was our issue, we need to psychologically adjust. 

Tonight we went to a pub where we live for a drink. We walked in with masks but we were the only ones walking around with them. I felt daft and so took it off, as did others in our group. It felt nice to be honest. 

My default will still be to wear masks in places but if others are not then I'm not going to be the only one. I'm getting the vibe that daytime will be masks on, nights out will be masks off.
		
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I’ve noticed during the last couple of days that the vast majority round these parts not wearing masks appear to be in their 20’s and 30’s. Those most likely to have been double jabbed are, in the main, still wearing them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 24, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve noticed during the last couple of days that the vast majority round these parts not wearing masks appear to be in their 20’s and 30’s. Those most likely to have been double jabbed are, in the main, still wearing them.
		
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That would have been my assumption of how it would be but my experience of last night and today was an equal spread across the ages going mask free. 

Saying that, in shops I'm seeing a universal wearing of masks, all ages.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 24, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve noticed during the last couple of days that the vast majority round these parts not wearing masks appear to be in their 20’s and 30’s. Those most likely to have been double jabbed are, in the main, still wearing them.
		
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That seems to make some sense of the infection demographics.
Re: #20,687


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## Hobbit (Jul 25, 2021)

Restrictions starting to be applied locally. Curfews coming back, limited opening times for some places and table number drastically reduced.

Same as last year, let the tourists in and numbers rocket.


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## road2ruin (Jul 25, 2021)

So PHE’s update today is that case numbers have dropped again to a shade under 30,000. This means the last 7 days look like this….

Sunday 48k
Monday 40k
Tuesday 46k
Wednesday 44k
Thursday 40k
Friday 36k
Saturday 31k
Sunday 29k

On the face of it all very positive however how much is due to the schools finishing? Has the testing also dropped with the school term finishing? Are people not testing as much as they have holidays coming up and don’t want to risk the situation of having to isolate?


----------



## Beezerk (Jul 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So PHE’s update today is that case numbers have dropped again to a shade under 30,000. This means the last 7 days look like this….

Sunday 48k
Monday 40k
Tuesday 46k
Wednesday 44k
Thursday 40k
Friday 36k
Saturday 31k
Sunday 29k

On the face of it all very positive however how much is due to the schools finishing? Has the testing also dropped with the school term finishing? Are people not testing as much as they have holidays coming up and don’t want to risk the situation of having to isolate?
		
Click to expand...

I'm taking those figures with a pinch of salt, mainly for some of the reasons you mentioned.
I know a few people in the village who have been pinged by track and trace and just ignored it, no test or isolating. I'm assuming that could be a country wide issue as well.


----------



## SaintHacker (Jul 25, 2021)

Sky reporting its rumoured Spain and Greece could be added to the amber plus list. Hopefully just a slow news day so we'll make something up to raise some interest type report...


----------



## SaintHacker (Jul 25, 2021)

This is quite an interesting read

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cheer-up-covid-is-losing-its-grip-zsxrk2w26

*Cheer up, Covid is losing its grip*

Doctors and nurses were among the first to be struck down by the virus. The prime minister was incapacitated for weeks, parliament was closed, education was disrupted. In the darkest days of the crisis, Norwood Cemetery in south London held 200 funerals a day.

 This was Britain during a pandemic. The year was not 2020, though, but 1890, and the disease was not Covid-19 but Russian flu. It tore around the world, killing 125,000 people in the UK and one million globally.

 The similarities between that pandemic and today’s are uncanny. Symptoms reported by doctors 130 years ago included dry coughing, a sudden fever and, for many, a lost sense of smell. Some survivors were struck by a lingering depression and lack of energy that left them debilitated for months. The saving grace of the virus was that children were affected much less than adults.

 Many virologists now believe that the 1890 outbreak was caused not by flu at all, but rather by a coronavirus that jumped from cows to humans, in much the same way that Sars-Cov-2 is believed to have leapt from bats to humans.

 So what can we learn from that crisis? When was the so-called Russian “flu” eradicated? And above all, what does it tell us about when the current pandemic will end?….

The virus that first struck Britain in 1890 also hit the country in waves. Four big surges swept across the nation until 1894, with further sporadic outbreaks until 1900, when the pandemic fizzled out.

 But the virus never disappeared. In fact, there is some evidence it may still be among us, passed from person to person as a key cause of winter sniffles. A Belgian study published in 2005 suggested the Russian outbreak may have been caused by what is now known as OC43, one of four coronaviruses that between them cause 20 per cent of common colds in the UK.

 Paul Hunter, professor of health protection at the University of East Anglia, believes Sars-Cov-2 will follow a similar trajectory and eventually become endemic, a seasonal virus that circulates every winter but does not cause serious problems. “The virus is here for the long term,” he said. “Our grandchildren’s grandchildren are going to get Covid. But for them it won’t be a big deal.”

 The question, of course, is how long will that process take? That our distant descendants will no longer be affected by the pandemic is faintly reassuring, but how much more of this upheaval will we have to endure ourselves?

 Few experts are willing to gaze into the crystal ball and give a definitive answer — Covid-19 has surprised us too many times — but Hunter believes the process is already under way, driven by the vaccines. “The symptom profile of cases is now changing, resembling less the Covid disease of last year and looking more like a common cold,” he said.

 Dr Julian Tang, clinical virologist at the University of Leicester, guesses that it will take three to five years for Covid-19 to become fully endemic in the UK, but stresses we will not be truly safe for the five to ten years it takes to complete global vaccination. David Matthews, professor of virology at Bristol, is slightly more optimistic. “It will take several years to reach an endemic state, but I would say that once this wave is done, that’s probably the worst of it.”

 Francois Balloux, director of the University College London Genetics Institute, has an even more hopeful outlook. “If you were extremely optimistic, and not afraid of hurting people’s feelings, you could say the pandemic is already borderline over. If we use a criteria that says if it is not causing more morbidity and mortality than any other virus in circulation, then I will be surprised if it were still the most deadly virus in circulation by next spring.”….

In the 1890s it took four years for enough people in the UK to become infected for immunity to reach significant levels, and then another five years of sporadic outbreaks until the virus settled into an endemic pattern. This time that process has been artificially accelerated by vaccines. About 88 per cent of adults in the UK have now received a vaccine and 69 per cent have had two doses. Add to that the many young people who have been exposed via natural infection and there is a very high level of immunity in the UK.…..

 The consequence of herd immunity is also different to that envisaged last year. “It’s not a case of, ‘We reach herd immunity and the virus will just go away’,” Matthews said. “There is no avoiding this virus now.” The aim, he said, is “a kind of truce. We will all catch it, several times. But because you’ve been vaccinated or you’ve had it before, you won’t die.”…..

 In many ways, the country has reached the limits of what it can do to control the virus. Unless the government decides to inoculate under-18s — which its scientific advisers last week cautioned against — vaccination levels are very close to reaching their maximum.

 Hunter also backs the lifting of restrictions and believes continuing to lock down could do more harm than good. He also believes the time has come to end the “pingdemic”, by bringing forward the date at which vaccinated Covid contacts are spared from self-isolating (currently August 16). “The requirement to quarantine after being pinged because you are a casual contact has little if any value in controlling the epidemic,” he said.

 Ball puts it differently. “Perhaps August 16 is when the pandemic ends in the UK,” he said. Now vaccination has ended the risk of severe disease for most, the biggest fear for many is having to spend ten days in isolation.

 Once again, the parallels with 1890 are apt. According to a 1995 history of Britain’s Russian flu outbreak, published in the Social History of Medicine journal, the crisis “touched most sufferers lightly, but it nonetheless cast thousands into an indeterminate, threatening situation”.

 The Covid pandemic has undoubtedly been tragic. Yet for those who have not been struck down or bereaved, the biggest impact has been the chaos, the uncertainty, the indeterminate threat.


----------



## D-S (Jul 25, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So PHE’s update today is that case numbers have dropped again to a shade under 30,000. This means the last 7 days look like this….

Sunday 48k
Monday 40k
Tuesday 46k
Wednesday 44k
Thursday 40k
Friday 36k
Saturday 31k
Sunday 29k

On the face of it all very positive however how much is due to the schools finishing? Has the testing also dropped with the school term finishing? Are people not testing as much as they have holidays coming up and don’t want to risk the situation of having to isolate?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the Euros shown in pubs, gatherings at home etc. were super spreader events which are now exiting from the numbers.


----------



## Ethan (Jul 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This is quite an interesting read

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cheer-up-covid-is-losing-its-grip-zsxrk2w26

*Cheer up, Covid is losing its grip*

Doctors and nurses were among the first to be struck down by the virus. The prime minister was incapacitated for weeks, parliament was closed, education was disrupted. In the darkest days of the crisis, Norwood Cemetery in south London held 200 funerals a day.

This was Britain during a pandemic. The year was not 2020, though, but 1890, and the disease was not Covid-19 but Russian flu. It tore around the world, killing 125,000 people in the UK and one million globally.

The similarities between that pandemic and today’s are uncanny. Symptoms reported by doctors 130 years ago included dry coughing, a sudden fever and, for many, a lost sense of smell. Some survivors were struck by a lingering depression and lack of energy that left them debilitated for months. The saving grace of the virus was that children were affected much less than adults.

Many virologists now believe that the 1890 outbreak was caused not by flu at all, but rather by a coronavirus that jumped from cows to humans, in much the same way that Sars-Cov-2 is believed to have leapt from bats to humans.

So what can we learn from that crisis? When was the so-called Russian “flu” eradicated? And above all, what does it tell us about when the current pandemic will end?….

The virus that first struck Britain in 1890 also hit the country in waves. Four big surges swept across the nation until 1894, with further sporadic outbreaks until 1900, when the pandemic fizzled out.

But the virus never disappeared. In fact, there is some evidence it may still be among us, passed from person to person as a key cause of winter sniffles. A Belgian study published in 2005 suggested the Russian outbreak may have been caused by what is now known as OC43, one of four coronaviruses that between them cause 20 per cent of common colds in the UK.

Paul Hunter, professor of health protection at the University of East Anglia, believes Sars-Cov-2 will follow a similar trajectory and eventually become endemic, a seasonal virus that circulates every winter but does not cause serious problems. “The virus is here for the long term,” he said. “Our grandchildren’s grandchildren are going to get Covid. But for them it won’t be a big deal.”

The question, of course, is how long will that process take? That our distant descendants will no longer be affected by the pandemic is faintly reassuring, but how much more of this upheaval will we have to endure ourselves?

Few experts are willing to gaze into the crystal ball and give a definitive answer — Covid-19 has surprised us too many times — but Hunter believes the process is already under way, driven by the vaccines. “The symptom profile of cases is now changing, resembling less the Covid disease of last year and looking more like a common cold,” he said.

Dr Julian Tang, clinical virologist at the University of Leicester, guesses that it will take three to five years for Covid-19 to become fully endemic in the UK, but stresses we will not be truly safe for the five to ten years it takes to complete global vaccination. David Matthews, professor of virology at Bristol, is slightly more optimistic. “It will take several years to reach an endemic state, but I would say that once this wave is done, that’s probably the worst of it.”

Francois Balloux, director of the University College London Genetics Institute, has an even more hopeful outlook. “If you were extremely optimistic, and not afraid of hurting people’s feelings, you could say the pandemic is already borderline over. If we use a criteria that says if it is not causing more morbidity and mortality than any other virus in circulation, then I will be surprised if it were still the most deadly virus in circulation by next spring.”….

In the 1890s it took four years for enough people in the UK to become infected for immunity to reach significant levels, and then another five years of sporadic outbreaks until the virus settled into an endemic pattern. This time that process has been artificially accelerated by vaccines. About 88 per cent of adults in the UK have now received a vaccine and 69 per cent have had two doses. Add to that the many young people who have been exposed via natural infection and there is a very high level of immunity in the UK.…..

The consequence of herd immunity is also different to that envisaged last year. “It’s not a case of, ‘We reach herd immunity and the virus will just go away’,” Matthews said. “There is no avoiding this virus now.” The aim, he said, is “a kind of truce. We will all catch it, several times. But because you’ve been vaccinated or you’ve had it before, you won’t die.”…..

In many ways, the country has reached the limits of what it can do to control the virus. Unless the government decides to inoculate under-18s — which its scientific advisers last week cautioned against — vaccination levels are very close to reaching their maximum.

Hunter also backs the lifting of restrictions and believes continuing to lock down could do more harm than good. He also believes the time has come to end the “pingdemic”, by bringing forward the date at which vaccinated Covid contacts are spared from self-isolating (currently August 16). “The requirement to quarantine after being pinged because you are a casual contact has little if any value in controlling the epidemic,” he said.

Ball puts it differently. “Perhaps August 16 is when the pandemic ends in the UK,” he said. Now vaccination has ended the risk of severe disease for most, the biggest fear for many is having to spend ten days in isolation.

Once again, the parallels with 1890 are apt. According to a 1995 history of Britain’s Russian flu outbreak, published in the Social History of Medicine journal, the crisis “touched most sufferers lightly, but it nonetheless cast thousands into an indeterminate, threatening situation”.

The Covid pandemic has undoubtedly been tragic. Yet for those who have not been struck down or bereaved, the biggest impact has been the chaos, the uncertainty, the indeterminate threat.
		
Click to expand...


We have discussed this idea before, that a more complex immunity builds up over a period of time after initial vaccination/infection, and after a while becomes capable of dealing with new variants - your immunity gets it's eye in, so to speak, and can spot a wrong'un. Older people and people with other illness do this less well, so probably need boosters, but most younger people won't.

That aspect of 'living with Covid' is fine, although I would controlling Covid than living with it, but I am less comfortable with the 'let it rip through the young people for a while, so long as the NHS doesn't crash' herd-immunity lite version we are now experimenting with.


----------



## larmen (Jul 25, 2021)

D-S said:



			Maybe the Euros shown in pubs, gatherings at home etc. were super spreader events which are now exiting from the numbers.
		
Click to expand...

Should have lost against Germany, for the safety of the country ;-)


I think it’s probably a good thing to open up some more whilst schools are closing. But probably opening everything could be too much.


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## Slime (Jul 25, 2021)

Jon Rahm gets struck again, this time forcing him out of the Olympics along with Bryson!


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## larmen (Jul 25, 2021)

Slime said:



			Jon Rahm gets struck again, this time forcing him out of the Olympics along with Bryson!
		
Click to expand...

Did he get pinged or did he get tested?


----------



## pauljames87 (Jul 25, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Sky reporting its rumoured Spain and Greece could be added to the amber plus list. Hopefully just a slow news day so we'll make something up to raise some interest type report...
		
Click to expand...

Really not surprised

Friend of a friend is in Spain. Got covid mid holiday, was locked in his room for 3 days

Then ambulance brought to transfer him to covid hotel

10 days isolation

No booze or fags allowed

No deliveries of prepared food so gets bread roll for breaky and chicken soup for lunch 

Booked a flight for Friday .. if he failed his test he lost out money again 

Just wants to come home 

Sounds completely worth it


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## pauljames87 (Jul 25, 2021)

larmen said:



			Did he get pinged or did he get tested?
		
Click to expand...

If they are PCR testing him won't he test positive for like 3 months as he recently had covid


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## jim8flog (Jul 25, 2021)

I have started to do regular lateral flow testing.

I have realised I have a very strong gag reflex when my tonsils get touched.


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## D-S (Jul 25, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Really not surprised

Friend of a friend is in Spain. Got covid mid holiday, was locked in his room for 3 days

Then ambulance brought to transfer him to covid hotel

10 days isolation

No booze or fags allowed

No deliveries of prepared food so gets bread roll for breaky and chicken soup for lunch

Booked a flight for Friday .. if he failed his test he lost out money again

Just wants to come home

Sounds completely worth it
		
Click to expand...

This is the massive risk going on holiday abroad brings, this is never mentioned when people bemoan the cost of testing - the cost of testing positive is far far higher and I would have thought financially prohibitive for many. This is an under reported danger in foreign holidays at the moment.


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## HampshireHog (Jul 25, 2021)

Slime said:



			Jon Rahm gets struck again, this time forcing him out of the Olympics along with Bryson!
		
Click to expand...

Does he keep taking the flag out & raking bunkers?


----------



## pauljames87 (Jul 25, 2021)

D-S said:



			This is the massive risk going on holiday abroad brings, this is never mentioned when people bemoan the cost of testing - the cost of testing positive is far far higher and I would have thought financially prohibitive for many. This is an under reported danger in foreign holidays at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed but we have become a nation that "has" to have holibobs abroad at all cost.. as if going into debt wasn't bad enough.. catching a deadly illness is still not enough to put people off


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## Beezerk (Jul 25, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I have started to do regular lateral flow testing.

I have realised I have a very strong gag reflex when my tonsils get touched.

Click to expand...

Those lateral flow tests seem a load of ballox now, I know a fair few including myself who have tested negative but have been absolutely minging with Covid. Do they only pick up on a particular symptom or something?


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 25, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Those lateral flow tests seem a load of ballox now, I know a fair few including myself who have tested negative but have been absolutely minging with Covid. Do they only pick up on a particular symptom or something?
		
Click to expand...

I read earlier today that 99% of positive tests from a rapid lateral flow test are confirmed as positive from subsequent PCR tests. The % accuracy for negative results is a lot lower, partly because they aren't as sensitive and partly because of user error when taking the swab and not being thorough enough. So a positive test from a rapid test is almost certainly correct but a negative test doesn't mean you don't have. 

Will try to find the link to the article I read if I can find it again.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 25, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I have started to do regular lateral flow testing.

I have realised I have a very strong gag reflex when my tonsils get touched.

Click to expand...

The one I had to do went up my nose only. No gagging involved but when do you know to stop . Not fun.


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## jim8flog (Jul 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The one I had to do went up my nose only. No gagging involved but when do you know to stop . Not fun.
		
Click to expand...

 It is in the instructions that come with the kits.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 26, 2021)

It seems as though there are different requirements for types of tests. In the Netherlands the lateral flow tests are nasal only. Before I flew out here I had to have a PCR test and that was throat and nose. One of the other guys who also had a PCR test in the UK before flying had one that was only nose.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 26, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			It is in the instructions that come with the kits.
		
Click to expand...

I know, but what if you reach brain


----------



## clubchamp98 (Jul 26, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know, but what if you reach brain 

Click to expand...

Don’t think the swab would be long enough  for some of us.

Cost me a tooth.
Could not get an appointment and now after root canal work for crown dentist saying it has a hairline crack and must come out.


----------



## SteveW86 (Jul 27, 2021)

2nd jab in the arm this morning (Pfizer),  didn’t have any effects after the first, hope I’m the same with this one.

We go on holiday (Cornwall) on Saturday so glad to get it done before that.


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## D-S (Jul 27, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			2nd jab in the arm this morning (Pfizer),  didn’t have any effects after the first, hope I’m the same with this one.

We go on holiday (Cornwall) on Saturday so glad to get it done before that.
		
Click to expand...

By the look of the traffic for the last 3 days going south past Bristol I would suggest leaving on Thursday.


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			2nd jab in the arm this morning (Pfizer),  didn’t have any effects after the first, hope I’m the same with this one.

We go on holiday (Cornwall) on Saturday so glad to get it done before that.
		
Click to expand...

I had no effects at all from Pfizer *2. I thought I had got the placebo.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jul 27, 2021)

So, daughters partner has isolated for the third time since Xmas. He came out of isolation on the day the government said if his work category get it ( police) they can test daily and still go to work if negative. He had been back at work 3 hours, a couple of bobbies went into a house, he was sat in car and he got pinged by a criminal who has Covid. Suffice to say he was not happy.


----------



## pauljames87 (Jul 27, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			So, daughters partner has isolated for the third time since Xmas. He came out of isolation on the day the government said if his work category get it ( police) they can test daily and still go to work if negative. He had been back at work 3 hours, a couple of bobbies went into a house, he was sat in car and he got pinged by a criminal who has Covid. Suffice to say he was not happy.
		
Click to expand...

Their was a time where the app said turn your contract tracing off when wearing full ppe ie the NHS 

Surprise they didn't just say all key workers don't use the app


----------



## Tashyboy (Jul 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			By the look of the traffic for the last 3 days going south past Bristol I would suggest leaving on Thursday.
		
Click to expand...

You know what I am off to bridgewater on Saturday for 6 days. I had not given the traffic a single thought. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Rooter (Jul 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I had no effects at all from Pfizer *2. I thought I had got the placebo.
		
Click to expand...

To counter that, I had the sweats and shivers for 48 hours, felt like I had been hit by a bus.

Fingers crossed for Steve! (I only had the dead arm after #1)


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## SteveW86 (Jul 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			By the look of the traffic for the last 3 days going south past Bristol I would suggest leaving on Thursday.
		
Click to expand...

Currently trying to decide which way to go, there’s a few different options from Southampton. It sounds like the longer but “faster” route of upto Bristol and down the M5 is not going to be chosen then. I was expecting to hit some traffic whichever way we go, just hope it’s not too bad.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I had no effects at all from Pfizer *2. I thought I had got the placebo.
		
Click to expand...


Errr.?.  What placebo , Ethan?😳


----------



## D-S (Jul 27, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Currently trying to decide which way to go, there’s a few different options from Southampton. It sounds like the longer but “faster” route of upto Bristol and down the M5 is not going to be chosen then. I was expecting to hit some traffic whichever way we go, just hope it’s not too bad.
		
Click to expand...

The M5 this summer J15-19, which I use to go the the golf club, has been honestly ridiculous. Yesterday it was stacked from 14-19 with a fair chunk coming off to go down the A38 (bad move) - this was a Monday in the morning and just after midday. Weekdays seem like Friday and Saturday in a normal year, no idea what weekends are like as I take the back lanes via Aust and Avonmouth but the sat nag has been saying 50mins to an hour of delay for this stretch alone.


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Errr.?.  What placebo , Ethan?😳
		
Click to expand...

It was a joke.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 27, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Errr.?.  What placebo , Ethan?😳
		
Click to expand...

Do you not know? All these politicians and celebrities getting their "vaccines" and sharing videos and photos are actually being injected with saline solution not the vaccine. They don't want the 5G chips implanted so they don't get the real vaccine.


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## SaintHacker (Jul 27, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			2nd jab in the arm this morning (Pfizer),  didn’t have any effects after the first, hope I’m the same with this one.

We go on holiday (Cornwall) on Saturday so glad to get it done before that.
		
Click to expand...

Mrs had nothing with the 1st one, but a majorly dead arm with the second which travelled down her armpit and into her breast, she was getting a bit concerned until one of the girls she workes with said she had exactly the same thing. 
As for cornwall, leave early, A36, A303, A30


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## road2ruin (Jul 27, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			As for cornwall, leave early, A36, A303, A30
		
Click to expand...

Yep, we're off in a week or so's time. I'll be up at 5am packing the car and the family will be told to be in it at 6am or I'll be leaving without them......


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2021)

We now have 23 infected in the village. Talking to one of the local councillors, virtually none of them have even a sniffle. They tested positive following contact tracing with someone who is ill with it.


----------



## Ethan (Jul 27, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We now have 23 infected in the village. Talking to one of the local councillors, virtually none of them have even a sniffle. They tested positive following contact tracing with someone who is ill with it.
		
Click to expand...

If they got PCR tests, the test may be a little over enthusiastic and can test positive with old infection that is no longer transmissible. Still, should probably erect a cordon around the village and firebomb it from the air just to be sure. Good luck.


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## Hobbit (Jul 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If they got PCR tests, the test may be a little over enthusiastic and can test positive with old infection that is no longer transmissible. Still, should probably erect a cordon around the village and firebomb it from the air just to be sure. Good luck.
		
Click to expand...

We’ve dug a moat and raised the drawbridge. HID is vaccinated but courtesy of Spanish bureaucracy I’m not.


----------



## jim8flog (Jul 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			By the look of the traffic for the last 3 days going south past Bristol I would suggest leaving on Thursday.
		
Click to expand...


 Southampton to Cornwall via Bristol that is a new one on me. M27- A31 - A35- A38 must get just as horrific on a Saturday morning.

Living nearly next to the A303 I always used to leave here at 6-7 in the morning if I wanted to go to Devon/Cornwall on a Saturday morning.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Jul 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If they got PCR tests, the test may be a little over enthusiastic and can test positive with old infection that is no longer transmissible. Still, should probably erect a cordon around the village and firebomb it from the air just to be sure. Good luck.
		
Click to expand...

BTW, This one isn't a joke!  😊


----------



## GB72 (Jul 27, 2021)

Ok, confused now, just seen this quote 

More than half of Covid hospital admissions are patients who only tested positive later, the Daily Telegraph reported, citing leaked data.
The newspaper said that as of Thursday, just 44% of patients classed as being in hospital with Covid had tested positive when they were admitted.

So are we saying that the figures for hospital admissions include people who are in hospital and just happen to have covid as opposed to my understanding that these fgures only included people who were in hospital because of covid.


----------



## jim8flog (Jul 27, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Currently trying to decide which way to go, there’s a few different options from Southampton. It sounds like the longer but “faster” route of upto Bristol and down the M5 is not going to be chosen then. I was expecting to hit some traffic whichever way we go, just hope it’s not too bad.
		
Click to expand...

 Living in the West Country my advice would be to leave a 5 am.  When I used to go Devon/ Cornwall I used to leave here between 7 and 8 in the morning (A303 A30 A38) and it was not much bother.  Sometimes my journey was leaving Devon/Cornwall at 2pm and the traffic heading West was nose to to tail all the way and I often used to leave Plymouth at 6pm and it was still the same.


----------



## KenL (Jul 27, 2021)

Off topic, sorry but... I would love to go to Cornwall, had a lovely holiday there as a kid.  Just such a long drive from East Lothian.


----------



## Ethan (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Ok, confused now, just seen this quote

More than half of Covid hospital admissions are patients who only tested positive later, the Daily Telegraph reported, citing leaked data.
The newspaper said that as of Thursday, just 44% of patients classed as being in hospital with Covid had tested positive when they were admitted.

So are we saying that the figures for hospital admissions include people who are in hospital and just happen to have covid as opposed to my understanding that these fgures only included people who were in hospital because of covid.
		
Click to expand...

A lot depends on how much later. If it is a day or two, then the virus was doing its thing when they were admitted and may well, or probably did, contribute to the reason for admission. 

The Torygraph is trying to explain away many of the admissions as not Covid-related. That is not the experience of doctors working in hospitals who are seeing plenty of people with Covid, and younger than previous waves. 

The problem is that sometimes older people are admitted with, say, heart failure. They may have had chronic heart failure and bumbled along with moderate impairment, but a UTI or chest infection will precipitate a decline and they need admitted. Ostensibly the reason for admission is heart failure, but the thing that really caused the admission was the UTI or chest infection. This is much less likely to happen with younger people, whose hearts, kidneys or whatever are much less likely to be tipped over the edge, so when younger people are admitted it is more likely to be "pure" Covid. Older people also get vague 'off their feet' problems and can be triggered by one or more problems.


----------



## Imurg (Jul 27, 2021)

Found out from a local driving examiner that several test centres have had to close due to contact with a positive candidate taking their test.
All candidates are advised to have a test before their driving test and if positive they should reschedule...yeah, like that's going to happen with a potential 6 to 8 month wait for another chance..of course they should but I bet none of them will.
Just lengthens the waiting times and  costs us business too.
Had 3 cancelled lessons last week due to isolating and 1 so far this week.


----------



## Ethan (Jul 27, 2021)

Ireland plans to offer vax to 12-15 year olds

I think this is a good idea. People can choose whether to receive it or not, but the risks of non-fatal Covid complications have been underplayed for teenagers, and the contribution to transmission and herd immunity is significant. 

Won't happen here, though. If it did, I would offer my 13 year old the choice. I am pretty sure he would take it, but he would be allowed to make his own choice. 

There is an interesting parallel with HPV vaccine. This is overwhelmingly for the prevention of cervical cancer in women, with sexual transmission a common route of transmission, so boys getting it are doing it for their future partners. There is a very small effect on some rare male cancers, but really pretty small and very remote in time, so not enough to justify the programme on its own.


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## GB72 (Jul 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			A lot depends on how much later. If it is a day or two, then the virus was doing its thing when they were admitted and may well, or probably did, contribute to the reason for admission.

The Torygraph is trying to explain away many of the admissions as not Covid-related. That is not the experience of doctors working in hospitals who are seeing plenty of people with Covid, and younger than previous waves.

The problem is that sometimes older people are admitted with, say, heart failure. They may have had chronic heart failure and bumbled along with moderate impairment, but a UTI or chest infection will precipitate a decline and they need admitted. Ostensibly the reason for admission is heart failure, but the thing that really caused the admission was the UTI or chest infection. This is much less likely to happen with younger people, whose hearts, kidneys or whatever are much less likely to be tipped over the edge, so when younger people are admitted it is more likely to be "pure" Covid. Older people also get vague 'off their feet' problems and can be triggered by one or more problems.
		
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Fully appreciate that and accept that position. I may be wrong but I read that as also meaning, lets say i go in for surgery on a broken leg, if I then test positive for covid in hospital with no symptoms then I am classed a person in hospital with covid and appear on those covid cases in hospital figures. Not aying it slants the figures in any particular way or to any large degree but just like to understand the figures that I am being presented with


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## fundy (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully appreciate that and accept that position. I may be wrong but I read that as also meaning, lets say i go in for surgery on a broken leg, if I then test positive for covid in hospital with no symptoms then I am classed a person in hospital with covid and appear on those covid cases in hospital figures. Not aying it slants the figures in any particular way or to any large degree but just like to understand the figures that I am being presented with
		
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numbers have been with not from since the start havent they, pinch of salt imo


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## Rooter (Jul 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



Ireland plans to offer vax to 12-15 year olds
Won't happen here, though. If it did, I would offer my 13 year old the choice. I am pretty sure he would take it, but he would be allowed to make his own choice.
		
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Shame, my 13yr old has suffered pnumonia 4/5 times, luckily nothing for a good few years, but I imagine her lungs are not as tip top as they could/should be at that age.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 27, 2021)

KenL said:



			Off topic, sorry but... I would love to go to Cornwall, had a lovely holiday there as a kid.  Just such a long drive from East Lothian.
		
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Fly to Newquay and hire a car 👍.


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## DRW (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Ok, confused now, just seen this quote

More than half of Covid hospital admissions are patients who only tested positive later, the Daily Telegraph reported, citing leaked data.
The newspaper said that as of Thursday, just 44% of patients classed as being in hospital with Covid had tested positive when they were admitted.

So are we saying that the figures for hospital admissions include people who are in hospital and just happen to have covid as opposed to my understanding that these fgures only included people who were in hospital because of covid.
		
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GB72 said:



			Fully appreciate that and accept that position. I may be wrong but I read that as also meaning, lets say i go in for surgery on a broken leg, if I then test positive for covid in hospital with no symptoms then I am classed a person in hospital with covid and appear on those covid cases in hospital figures. Not aying it slants the figures in any particular way or to any large degree but just like to understand the figures that I am being presented with
		
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You are correct, its been the same throughout, why I dont really understand, so pass. You would think 16 months into this, the data would be 'being treated for covid', fairly certain whitty had said recently we need to change the data but dont think it has changed yet.

I know more than one person that was in hospital that tested positive whilst there, not being treated with covid thankfully, but they are still included in the figures.

Couple of interesting links, you can also get an idea from the vaccine/variants data published (kind of reading between the tested on same day as A&e visit)  :-

SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation (publishing.service.gov.uk)

datatosee.com on Twitter: "So they have supplied my FOI request in terms of numbers in hospital being treated for COVID. However as I am aware I am unable to manipulate any of this data. But why don't they publish this daily..... https://t.co/tZCFVnmSFh" / Twitter

There are other people on twitter who extract some interesting figures with this regard(they have always shown iirc 10-40% of not being treated with covid included in the figure), but the above gives an indication.


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## Beedee (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully appreciate that and accept that position. I may be wrong but I read that as also meaning, lets say i go in for surgery on a broken leg, if I then test positive for covid in hospital with no symptoms then I am classed a person in hospital with covid and appear on those covid cases in hospital figures. Not aying it slants the figures in any particular way or to any large degree but just like to understand the figures that I am being presented with
		
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I assume that wards aren't deliberately mixed with covid and non-covid patients.  So even if covid isn't the reason for admission, or even that significant in the treatment or duration of stay for the patient, it will be another big pain in the backside of those who have to run the hospitals.  As each ward has to be duplicated between hot and cold, so effective bed numbers will drop and any slack in the system gets prematurely used up.


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## Ethan (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully appreciate that and accept that position. I may be wrong but I read that as also meaning, lets say i go in for surgery on a broken leg, if I then test positive for covid in hospital with no symptoms then I am classed a person in hospital with covid and appear on those covid cases in hospital figures. Not aying it slants the figures in any particular way or to any large degree but just like to understand the figures that I am being presented with
		
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fundy said:



			numbers have been with not from since the start havent they, pinch of salt imo
		
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Yes, they have, but consider deaths. There is a fairly stable, if seasonally varying background death rate. If something causes a rise in the death rate, say mysterious rays from outer space, we will see it. Likewise, the death rates seen last year showed a sharp rise, roughly a doubling of the risk of death. That risk is low for young people, higher for older people, but it roughly doubled. That excess is our old friend, excess deaths. that number was driven largely by older deaths which are more visible. Those excess deaths was due to, directly or indirectly, Covid. Interestingly, when there is a pandemic or a nurses strike, say, deaths fall slightly because the death rates associated with elective surgery go away, at least temporarily. 

With younger people, admission rates for non-elective surgery or accident tend to be low, so any increase above normal rates is noticeable, and we have that at the moment. Because younger people tend not to be admitted with some problem triggered by Covid, it is pretty easy to tell of they are in due to Covid or not. 

When measuring this stuff, it is actually more important to measure it consistently than precisely, so trends can be seen. Even if you believe that a large fraction of admissions are with rather than due to Covid, you won't be able to make sense of data in a months time if the system for counting it changes. Has the number fallen because the "real" case number have fallen or because we changed the way we count it?


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## larmen (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully appreciate that and accept that position. I may be wrong but I read that as also meaning, lets say i go in for surgery on a broken leg, if I then test positive for covid in hospital with no symptoms then I am classed a person in hospital with covid and appear on those covid cases in hospital figures. Not aying it slants the figures in any particular way or to any large degree but just like to understand the figures that I am being presented with
		
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I think the importance is not how they are calculating the figures, but that they are calculating it in a consistent way to see trends.

Your leg break scenario might be not that great once we open up ski holidays, but until then the rate of leg breaks should not be that varying to throw out the covid figures.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what I am off to bridgewater on Saturday for 6 days. I had not given the traffic a single thought. Thanks for the heads up.
		
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Are you being paid to go there 😉


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## SocketRocket (Jul 27, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Currently trying to decide which way to go, there’s a few different options from Southampton. It sounds like the longer but “faster” route of upto Bristol and down the M5 is not going to be chosen then. I was expecting to hit some traffic whichever way we go, just hope it’s not too bad.
		
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Maybe cut across through Yovil and across to Taunton, the M5 tends to open up a bit past WSM.


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## Backache (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Fully appreciate that and accept that position. I may be wrong but I read that as also meaning, lets say i go in for surgery on a broken leg, if I then test positive for covid in hospital with no symptoms then I am classed a person in hospital with covid and appear on those covid cases in hospital figures. Not aying it slants the figures in any particular way or to any large degree but just like to understand the figures that I am being presented with
		
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It can be quite complicated. 
If you are young and have broken a bone very often you won't be admitted there and then unless the operation is urgent because of instability of the fracture you will be brought back. If  you have a positive covid test they will send you away agian untill you have served your isolation period unless the operation is very urgent. People with Covid do less well with surgery.
A common reason for needing an operation on a fracture urgently is an elderly patient with a broken hip. 
If they test positive for covid how do you decide whether or not the covid is part of the reason for admission, very often elderly people breakhips when they are a bit unsteady on their feet because of things like infection  and the covid may well be contributing totheir admission. In either scenario the fact that you have covid and therefore need to be isolated or cohorted puts an extra demand on the health service and if you require an operation slows things down a lot.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 27, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Ok, confused now, just seen this quote

More than half of Covid hospital admissions are patients who only tested positive later, the Daily Telegraph reported, citing leaked data.
The newspaper said that as of Thursday, just 44% of patients classed as being in hospital with Covid had tested positive when they were admitted.

So are we saying that the figures for hospital admissions include people who are in hospital and just happen to have covid as opposed to my understanding that these fgures only included people who were in hospital because of covid.
		
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It's possible that some of those in hospital with Covid caught it after they were admitted? There seems to have been a large percentage that have caught it in hospital over the course of the pandemic.


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## IainP (Jul 27, 2021)

6th July 



IainP said:



			Obviously don't want this to happen, but wonder what the thresholds may be to set the alarm bells..
5000 in hospital,  120 deaths in a day
?
		
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Hmm, was hoping this wouldn't be reached. 3 weeks exactly.
Obviously the cases going down is the good news, today's figures are just one day so hopefully soon the other figures will follow.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you being paid to go there 😉
		
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Just had a look at the top ten things to do in Somerset. A helicopter museum is in the top ten. So is the sandcastle competition 😳 

Going on Saturday, at this rate al be home on Sunday.


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## williamalex1 (Jul 27, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We’ve dug a moat and raised the drawbridge. HID is vaccinated but courtesy of Spanish bureaucracy I’m not.
		
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Brian when do you expect to be vaccinated ?. Maybe worth flying back here and get your jab at a walk in centre ?


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Brian when do you expect to be vaccinated ?. Maybe worth flying back here and get your jab at a walk in centre ?
		
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I’m back at the health centre again today, 6th time, starting afresh with all my docs. If they issue a temp health number, which they are supposed to do, I’ll be able to book an appt within 48 hours. There’s also drop-ins here too, just got to watch out for when they’re on- even if it means being in the car a couple of hours getting there.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2021)

Lad was supposed to have his first paid work in his sector (performing arts events) since last March last night, but venue in Leeds had to cancel the event as they couldn’t get enough security and too many venue staff isolating.  So no work and no income…and no compensation for loss of earning…what I think over the current state of affairs would get me an infraction.


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2021)

It is a bit of a mess at the moment. In my view, there are two big distinctions. One is between vaccinated and unvaccinated. The other indoors and outdoors. 

Between vaccinated and unvaccinated, it is unfortunate that some people have not had the opportunity to get their vax, but that is not adequate reason to expose people to risk for fear of making some people feel left out. I have no sympathy for those who have chosen not to do so. They must accept there is a social contract which includes their responsibility towards others, and their personal autonomy cannot override that. 

It is clear that whilst not 100% effective, the vax significantly reduces the risk of getting Covid, ending up in hospital with it or transmitting it. I would therefore extend "privileges" to the vaccinated including going to concerts, clubs etc. Indoors stuff. There will be some cases due to the not-100% effect, but people can decide for themselves if they are willing to risk it. 

On public transport, I would maintain masks. Not 100% effective, as extensively and exhaustively debated above, but there is broad if not universal agreement that they have an effect and there are no risks. 

Outside, in parks, golf courses, sports day at school, pub gardens etc, I would not require masks, and unless there was prolonged close contact, would not require vaccinations. In places where there is indoor mixing as part of the experience, say concourses at football matches, I would treat as indoor venues. 

Offices are tricky, so probably best to maintain home/remote working where possible. Where office attendance needed, people should really be vaccinated. 

The current strategy is clearly a herd immunity for the young strategy, "let cases run among the young - they won't get too sick or clog up the NHS too much - and that will contribute to the herd immunity numbers. Better to do that than have an awkward debate on vaccinating teenagers where the backbenchers will kick off". This is a dangerous stagey, in my view, storing up health issues for the future.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 28, 2021)

this is a decent read
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...point/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

I can understand how gratifying it is to quote Professor Neil Ferguson’s words back at him – words he said just a week ago when he told Andrew Marr it was “almost inevitable” that daily covid cases would reach 100,000 a day as a result of the last stage of the government’s roadmap out of lockdown. "The real question", he added, "is do we get to double that – or even higher?” 
Almost from the moment he uttered those words, new Covid infections began to plummet. Between Sunday 18 and Sunday 25 July, they fell from 48,161 to 29,173. Naturally, this will be rocket fuel for anyone who blames Ferguson’s modelling for plunging us into weeks of lockdown last spring. Not only does it show that his modelling is, to put it kindly, not all it is cracked up to be – it also indicates that you don’t necessarily need a lockdown to provoke a sudden change in direction followed by a steep decline in covid infections.
Ferguson contends that a week’s delay in bringing in lockdown in March 2020 cost many thousands of lives – while modelling by Simon Wood of the University of Edinburgh, for example, has questioned this, suggesting that covid infections could have been falling before the lockdown was called.
Yet something makes me feel a little uneasy about promoting Neil Ferguson as a bogeyman – or, indeed, about celebrating the present fall in new infections at all. It all rather misses the point that the raw infection numbers no longer matter that much any more, now that vaccines have blunted the ability of Covid to cause severe disease and death.
Look at the graph of infections and you can see we have just experienced a significant third wave. Look, on the other hand, at the graphs of hospitalisations and especially deaths there is no ‘third wave’ worthy of the name. That is what vaccination gives us: the ability to tame covid into a disease which, like seasonal flu, we can easily live with.
Yet still the statistics on daily covid infections seem to grip us like nothing else. Where once we might have looked to see how the FTSE 100 did today, or turned to the football results, or, every four years, the Olympic medals table, the daily covid figures have become our one stop shop for judging the health of the nation. We need to wean ourselves off the covid infection figures because at some point it is very likely that we will have a fourth wave of infections. This is how epidemics often progress, with several peaks and troughs, with no obvious trigger for the change in direction.
If we are going to see the current fall in infections as a moment for great rejoicing, then it follows that we ought to react to any subsequent rise in infections with fear. It is perfectly possible that the graph of new infections will start to track upwards again in the next week or two as the full effects of the relaxation of rules on 19 July feed through into infections – at which point Professor Ferguson might well be back to have a little snigger at those who are taunting him this week.
Yet in reality, unless the virus evolves into some new, far deadlier form, we needn't worry about a fourth wave. The government will not need to reimpose any more restrictions on our day-to-day-lives. We will be able to carry on as normal, as we do almost every winter when there is a flu outbreak, with the government just taking care to ensure we deliver booster vaccinations, should the decline in antibodies in the general population justify them. As the Chief Medical Officer has said one a number of occasions we need to decide as a country what level of Covid deaths we are prepared to accept.
If the answer is 20,000 a year or fewer – the number who succumb to flu in a bad year – then we are almost certainly already at the point where we can safely live with Covid without being obsessed with daily infection figures.
So let’s leave Professor Ferguson alone. The limitations of his – and everyone else’s – modelling were clear all along. The only thing that has changed since the spring of 2020 is that, thanks to vaccines, we can safely end our obsession with counting new covid cases.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 28, 2021)

Very good points raised in both .....796 and 797.


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Lad was supposed to have his first paid work in his sector (performing arts events) since last March last night, but venue in Leeds had to cancel the event as they couldn’t get enough security and too many venue staff isolating.  So no work and no income…and no compensation for loss of earning…*what I think over the current state of affairs would get me an infraction.*

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Given your track record, the highlighted bit comes, and I think I can speak for the majority of the forum here, as a real shock to us all.


On topic. Had my second jab on Monday, and the side effects has been minimal, with a slight pain in my arm, but nowhere near as bad as after the first one. No other side effects, so I'm one of the lucky one's!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Given your track record, the highlighted bit comes, and I think I can speak for the majority of the forum here, as a real shock to us all.


On topic. Had my second jab on Monday, and the side effects has been minimal, with a slight pain in my arm, but nowhere near as bad as after the first one. No other side effects, so I'm one of the lucky one's!
		
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My track record?  On what?

Anyway conversation this morning finds potential work popping up all over the place for my lad as DJs, promotions company reps at venues and others getting pinged and having to isolate plus others testing positive.  Flip side is that work he accepts can get cancelled at the very last moment as venue loses staff and can’t open. And all at the very last moment so events getting cancelled on the day right up to doors opening.  Seems like there’s going to be chaos and great uncertainty  in the smaller venue performing arts and nightclubs for quite some time.  Ping exemption required for that sector would help mitigate the risk.

Seems like larger venues and festivals may be OK as he’s got 3 days doing late night DJ sets at Rewind North 6-8 August - and not too far from him in Macclesfield - and hopefully then also sets at Leeds Festival.  So positive there.


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## Lilyhawk (Jul 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My track record?  On what?
		
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Nah. Not falling for that one. You're a big boy. You'll figure it, if you want to.


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My track record?  On what?

Anyway conversation this morning finds potential work popping up all over the place for my lad as DJs, promotions company reps at venues and others getting pinged and having to isolate plus others testing positive.  Flip side is that work he accepts can get cancelled at the very last moment as venue loses staff and can’t open. And all at the very last moment so events getting cancelled on the day right up to doors opening.  Seems like there’s going to be chaos and great uncertainty  in the smaller venue performing arts and nightclubs for quite some time.  Ping exemption required for that sector would help mitigate the risk.

Seems like larger venues and festivals may be OK as he’s got 3 days doing late night DJ sets at Rewind North 6-8 August - and not too far from him in Macclesfield - and hopefully then also sets at Leeds Festival.  So positive there.
		
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I presume your joy at your son picking up work due to other people’s misfortune also comes with a bit of compassion for those that have had to miss out on work? No mention of any…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I presume your joy at your son picking up work due to other people’s misfortune also comes with a bit of compassion for those that have had to miss out on work? No mention of any…
		
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You presume correctly…it is very unfortunate for those who cannot work…but the same opportunities will no doubt present for them also when they are clear.  My point is more to do with the chaotic business environment and uncertainty in which the performing arts and nightclub sector is having to operate at the moment.


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## bobmac (Jul 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is more to do with the chaotic business environment and uncertainty in which the performing arts and nightclub sector is having to operate at the moment.
		
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Couldn't your son get another job until this Covid disaster blows over?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just had a look at the top ten things to do in Somerset. A helicopter museum is in the top ten. So is the sandcastle competition 😳 

Going on Saturday, at this rate al be home on Sunday.
		
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Bridgewater is not exactly the Severn Riveria (Don't know if there is one, maybe WSM).  The cellophane factory was nice day out if you could  manage the smell,  maybe a climb up Brent Knoll, the views over the warehouses is second to none.

Don't let me put you off though 😉


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## SaintHacker (Jul 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m back at the health centre again today, 6th time, starting afresh with all my docs. If they issue a temp health number, which they are supposed to do, I’ll be able to book an appt within 48 hours. There’s also drop-ins here too, just got to watch out for when they’re on- even if it means being in the car a couple of hours getting there.
		
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Any luck Bri?


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Any luck Bri?
		
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No. I’ve hit a log jam. Until recently you could sign on at any health centre. You were given a AN(health) number when that health centre accepted your details. Then you could either wait to be issued an appt, book yourself or go to one of the drop-ins.

People in our village we’re going elsewhere because the front desk is a disaster. The other towns and villages stooped accepting people from our village, saying it’s the health centre that needs to get its act together.

My next move is to fill in a complaints form. One copy stays with the HCentre, one goes to the regional office and a 3rd goes to the police. These carry a hell of a lot of weight.


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## jim8flog (Jul 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just had a look at the top ten things to do in Somerset. A helicopter museum is in the top ten. So is the sandcastle competition 😳

Going on Saturday, at this rate al be home on Sunday.
		
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 It is why I love living here - the tourists do not stop for long


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## chellie (Jul 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Couldn't your son get another job until this Covid disaster blows over?
		
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Was suggested well over a year ago but he claims benefits instead.


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## patricks148 (Jul 28, 2021)

Went out on a long ride today, felt fine until I came back from The shops. Now ache all over  shivering and have a splitting headache.  Wife has some tests in her office so going to take one when she gets back from work


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## bobmac (Jul 28, 2021)

chellie said:



			Was suggested well over a year ago but he claims benefits instead.
		
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Maybe he just can't be bothered putting in a bit of effort and getting a proper job.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 28, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Went out on a long ride today, felt fine until I came back from The shops. Now ache all over  shivering and have a splitting headache.  Wife has some tests in her office so going to take one when she gets back from work

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Hopefully all will be fine. I was like that after golf on Friday. Two negative lateral flow tests and finally feeling much better today. I hate the fact that Covid has changed how we all feel about feeling under the weather...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Couldn't your son get another job until this Covid disaster blows over?
		
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why?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Maybe he just can't be bothered putting in a bit of effort and getting a proper job.
		
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Wrong - so very, very wrong…besides … what do you mean by a ‘proper job’… he has got a proper job…would you suggest the same to all self-employed…that when times are tough they should get a ‘proper’ job. I suggest that you wouldn’t.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 28, 2021)

Guys let’s leave silh and his family to get on with it , it’s been discussed to death


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## Tashyboy (Jul 28, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			It is why I love living here - the tourists do not stop for long

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where would you recommend going, apart from home 😁


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## Beezerk (Jul 28, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Hopefully all will be fine. I was like that after golf on Friday. Two negative lateral flow tests and finally feeling much better today. I hate the fact that Covid has changed how we all feel about feeling under the weather...
		
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Lateral flows are a waste of time, get a PCR if you want a true test.


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## AmandaJR (Jul 28, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Lateral flows are a waste of time, get a PCR if you want a true test.
		
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I was pretty thorough with the swab both times so I'm thinking unlikely the PCR would give a different result...always possible though. Spoke to the GP who thinks a virus of some sort which also gave me some gastric issues (less said about those the better)!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys let’s leave silh and his family to get on with it , it’s been discussed to death
		
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Thank you.  Point of what I have posted today is to highlight the issues that those working in the performing arts sector still face - despite things ostensibly being back to normal.  They ain’t.


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## Beezerk (Jul 28, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I was pretty thorough with the swab both times so I'm thinking unlikely the PCR would give a different result...always possible though. Spoke to the GP who thinks a virus of some sort which also gave me some gastric issues (less said about those the better)!
		
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So was I, did two lateral flow tests, both negative, did a PCR the day after and positive. A friend's wife did 7 negative lateral flow tests then a positive PCR, did another lateral flow and was negative on that 🤣
Only a small snapshot and I really don't know the science behind them but I wouldn't trust that test.


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## Ethan (Jul 28, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			So was I, did two lateral flow tests, both negative, did a PCR the day after and positive. A friend's wife did 7 negative lateral flow tests then a positive PCR, did another lateral flow and was negative on that 🤣
Only a small snapshot and I really don't know the science behind them but I wouldn't trust that test.
		
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If you have symptoms you need a PCR. The LFTs are OK for screening asymptomatic people, but not much more.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thank you.  Point of what I have posted today is to highlight the issues that those working in the performing arts sector still face - despite things ostensibly being back to normal.  They ain’t.
		
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We know, you keep telling us.

If you keep bringing the subject up, dont get surprised when prople comment on it.


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## Hobbit (Jul 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys let’s leave silh and his family to get on with it , it’s been discussed to death
		
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So he can bring it up and the rest of us shouldn’t reply? Really? Think your advice should apply to both sides of that particular debate.


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			So was I, did two lateral flow tests, both negative, did a PCR the day after and positive. A friend's wife did 7 negative lateral flow tests then a positive PCR, did another lateral flow and was negative on that 🤣
Only a small snapshot and I really don't know the science behind them but I wouldn't trust that test.
		
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Ethan pointed out PCR can come back postive off old viruses.. 

Like when you have had covid you will test positive for 3 months is it?

Both have their uses and faults


----------



## DanFST (Jul 29, 2021)

Proper job? Bore off. 

Mate quit his job and spent all his savings learning to be a pilot. Became a first officer flying around Europe gaining more hours and experience. Unemployed almost overnight, still unemployed. 

The pandemic has effected everyone in different ways, don't be a Richard.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jul 29, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			So he can bring it up and the rest of us shouldn’t reply? Really? Think your advice should apply to both sides of that particular debate.
		
Click to expand...

See post 20822
👍


----------



## bobmac (Jul 29, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wrong - so very, very wrong…besides … what do you mean by a ‘proper job’… he has got a proper job…would you suggest the same to all self-employed…that when times are tough they should get a ‘proper’ job. I suggest that you wouldn’t.
		
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A proper job as in Monday to Friday, 9-5 maybe working an office which I seem to remember he has done before.
Then do his Dj work in the evenings and weekends until work picks up.


----------



## Backache (Jul 29, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ethan pointed out PCR can come back postive off old viruses..

Like when you have had covid you will test positive for 3 months is it?

Both have their uses and faults
		
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It is not that you will test positive for three months . It is that it is possible to test positive up to three months . most people will test negative shortly after infection.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2021)

From Monday if I come to UK from such as Spain, then if I am fully vaccinated I will not need to self-isolate, but on Monday if I am pinged by the NHS App I have to self-isolate even if I am fully vaccinated.  What am I missing.


----------



## Beezerk (Jul 29, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Ethan pointed out PCR can come back postive off old viruses..

Like when you have had covid you will test positive for 3 months is it?

Both have their uses and faults
		
Click to expand...

True, I'm just saying I would take a negative lateral flow test with a pinch of salt, specially if you have some sort of symptoms.


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## D-S (Jul 29, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From Monday if I come to UK from such as Spain, then if I am fully vaccinated I will not need to self-isolate, but on Monday if I am pinged by the NHS App I have to self-isolate even if I am fully vaccinated.  What am I missing.
		
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Just to state the obvious, if you have been pinged you have therefore been in close physical contact for over 15 minutes with someone who has just tested positive for Covid-19 - if you are a passenger arriving from Spain you have not been shown to have done so.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Jul 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			Just to state the obvious, if you have been pinged you have therefore been in close physical contact for over 15 minutes with someone who has just tested positive for Covid-19 - if you are a passenger arriving from Spain you have not been shown to have done so.
		
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I'm guessing the passengers from Spain would also have had to show a negative test before boarding the flight?


----------



## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From Monday if I come to UK from such as Spain, then if I am fully vaccinated I will not need to self-isolate, but on Monday if I am pinged by the NHS App I have to self-isolate even if I am fully vaccinated.  What am I missing.
		
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Your missing that you don't have to obey the NHS app (even though I would) just legally you dont


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jul 29, 2021)

@Hobbit Bri, what are the Spanish rules for  the equivalent of being “pinged” in England please?


----------



## GB72 (Jul 29, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From Monday if I come to UK from such as Spain, then if I am fully vaccinated I will not need to self-isolate, but on Monday if I am pinged by the NHS App I have to self-isolate even if I am fully vaccinated.  What am I missing.
		
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Absolutely everything. Coming from Spain does not mean that you have had contact with anyone with Covid and so you arrive and get on with your life. Being pinged by the NHS app means that you have been in contact wiht someone with covid and so follow the protocols. Reallly not sure what the confusion is unless the insinuation is that every traveller from Spain has been in contact with someone with Covid.


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## Ethan (Jul 29, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			True, I'm just saying I would take a negative lateral flow test with a pinch of salt, specially if you have some sort of symptoms.
		
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Indeed. All tests that rely on quantifying something must either focus on identifying cases, accepting they will have some false positives, or in ruling out cases, accepting they will have some false negatives. This trade-off is usually unavoidable, and results essentially from where the "cut-off" defining a case is drawn on the scale. 

In the case of Covid tests, PCRs err on the former end, so they generate false positives, usually due to dead virus or virus that is just sitting there rather than actively infecting the patients. This is less of a concern if you are dealing with symptomatic patients. If you get a positive PCR test, you 'probably' have Covid. 

LFTs, on the other hand, focus on identifying people who do not have the virus, but this means that they will miss some people who have virus, but this is less of a problem if you are dealing with non-symptomatic patients and are doing community surveillance. If you get a positive LFT test, you are very likely to have Covid, but a negative test does not rule out infection with the same level of certainty. The LFT is intended as a red-light to take action, not a green light to abandon other hygiene measures.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



@Hobbit Bri, what are the Spanish rules for  the equivalent of being “pinged” in England please?
		
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Isolate for 10 days. The Policia Local visit every day, along with the Spanish version of Social Services, who drop off your shopping and take away your rubbish. Fined for non-compliance.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			where would you recommend going, apart from home 😁
		
Click to expand...

Somerset's great except for Bridgewater 😉


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## pauljames87 (Jul 29, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Isolate for 10 days. The Policia Local visit every day, along with the Spanish version of Social Services, who drop off your shopping and take away your rubbish. Fined for non-compliance.
		
Click to expand...

That's how it should be.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Somerset's great except for Bridgewater 😉
		
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😂😂😂😂😂


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## D-S (Jul 29, 2021)

Just to be pedantic it’s Bridgwater (no e). Sadly doesn’t make it any better though, having said that Enmore Park GC is not a bad track and only a couple of miles away.
Bridgwater Carnival is a seriously good night out hand a really big event) but it’s not until Novemberthough


----------



## Kellfire (Jul 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			Just to be pedantic it’s Bridgwater (no e). Sadly doesn’t make it any better though, having said that Enmore Park GC is not a bad track and only a couple of miles away.
Bridgwater Carnival is a seriously good night out hand a really big event) but it’s not until Novemberthough
		
Click to expand...

Just to be pedantic, it’s (and (no h) and that’s before the rest of your typos. 😀


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## Tashyboy (Jul 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			Just to be pedantic it’s Bridgwater (no e). Sadly doesn’t make it any better though, having said that Enmore Park GC is not a bad track and only a couple of miles away.
Bridgwater Carnival is a seriously good night out hand a really big event) but it’s not until Novemberthough
		
Click to expand...

D-S looks like we will be having a day in Bristol. So looking for some highlights 👍


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## D-S (Jul 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			D-S looks like we will be having a day in Bristol. So looking for some highlights 👍
		
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Try http://wappingwharf.co.uk/gallery/cargo/ for cool food, Clifton villlage for pottering around http://www.discoverclifton.co.uk/, if you like street art and Banksy https://visitbristol.co.uk/things-to-do/banksy-walking-tour-p1354013. It’s a surprisingly diverse city.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			Try http://wappingwharf.co.uk/gallery/cargo/ for cool food, Clifton villlage for pottering around http://www.discoverclifton.co.uk/, if you like street art and Banksy https://visitbristol.co.uk/things-to-do/banksy-walking-tour-p1354013. It’s a surprisingly diverse city.
		
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Wrapping wharf a deffo and Clifton. Being a banksy fan Ave a feeling an amble may well be on the cards cheers D-S


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			D-S looks like we will be having a day in Bristol. So looking for some highlights 👍
		
Click to expand...

Brunells Great Briton ship and the docks in general including the Water shed and Arnofini gallery.  King Street and a drink in the Old Duke or Naval Volunteer, Clifton Village and a cider in the Coronation Tap, a stroll over the suspension bridge that spans the Avon gorge, Bristol Cathedral on College Green, Cabot Circus for shopping, Park Street with the Museium and Art Gallery at the top.
Lovely Jubley.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We know, you keep telling us.

If you keep bringing the subject up, dont get surprised when prople comment on it.
		
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i might keep bringing it up as difficulties associated with the sector become apparent or indeed are resolved.  I do not expect to get personal criticism as


bobmac said:



			A proper job as in Monday to Friday, 9-5 maybe working an office which I seem to remember he has done before.
Then do his Dj work in the evenings and weekends until work picks up.
		
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Really...so you give the same advice to everyone working in the performing arts sector...get a proper job...sorry - but don't be absurd.  That sort of 'advice' suggest a complete lack of understanding about what working in the performing arts sector involves...and I'll just note that my lad's DJ work is a small part of his regular workload...the majority is supporting performing artists/bands etc as they travel around the country, and that is a 9am-2am job.  But let's not worry about the detail...

And at the moment any venue anywhere may not be able to open due to last minute resourcing issues.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Brunells Great Briton ship and the docks in general including the Water shed and Arnofini gallery.  King Street and a drink in the Old Duke or Naval Volunteer, Clifton Village and a cider in the Coronation Tap, a stroll over the suspension bridge that spans the Avon gorge, Bristol Cathedral on College Green, Cabot Circus for shopping, Park Street with the Museium and Art Gallery at the top.
Lovely Jubley.
		
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That came through as an email notification. Missis T now has it. Cheers SR.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			i might keep bringing it up as difficulties associated with the sector become apparent or indeed are resolved.  I do not expect to get personal criticism as

Really...so you give the same advice to everyone working in the performing arts sector...get a proper job...sorry - but don't be absurd.  That sort of 'advice' suggest a complete lack of understanding about what working in the performing arts sector involves...and I'll just note that my lad's DJ work is a small part of his regular workload...the majority is supporting performing artists/bands etc as they travel around the country, and that is a 9am-2am job.  But let's not worry about the detail...

And at the moment any venue anywhere may not be able to open due to last minute resourcing issues.
		
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My SiL was doing the same type of work, as soon as it stopped he got a job delivering food for Sainsbury's which he's still doing.  He has a family to support as well as himself.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2021)

Everytime I log into this thread it seems it’s now just about SILH son

Calls for him to “get a proper job” ?! Blimey didn’t realise it was career advise on here now

Can anyone confirm what’s a proper job ? And what other jobs are classed as 🤷‍♂️


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			My SiL was doing the same type of work, as soon as it stopped he got a job delivering food for Sainsbury's which he's still doing.  He has a family to support as well as himself.
		
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My lad doesn't, and he is OK scraping alone with very little.  Fortunately his DWP Work Coach has been understanding and supportive throughout the pandemic, and his time on UC.  The work coach understands that he has not lost his job, the pandemic and closure stopped work coming his way - but come his way it will.

Fortunately today there is a lot of work in the pipeline...but whilst the requirement to isolate when pinged remains, any of that work will be liable to cancellation at a moment's notice.  The longer term problem of loss, and hence lack, of evening workers for a variety of reasons - as is also impacting restaurants and bars - will remain.


----------



## D-S (Jul 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Brunells Great Briton ship and the docks in general including the Water shed and Arnofini gallery.  King Street and a drink in the Old Duke or Naval Volunteer, Clifton Village and a cider in the Coronation Tap, a stroll over the suspension bridge that spans the Avon gorge, Bristol Cathedral on College Green, Cabot Circus for shopping, Park Street with the Museium and Art Gallery at the top.
Lovely Jubley.
		
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A couple of pints of Exhibition Cider in the Coronation Tap and you might not make it across the Suspension Bridge!


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jul 29, 2021)

Guys thread is about how the virus has affected you

I’m seeing travel advice as well as the established career advice element.

Can we get back on track


----------



## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2021)

Numbers rising locally, the village currently at 658/100,000 with 25 cases. Most are asymptomatic but several are struggling. One young lady, 30-ish, has posted a video on FB that would break your heart in which she urges everyone to get vaccinated. She can barely breathe and struggles to speak, whilst in the background a young child asks will you be alright mummy.


----------



## SocketRocket (Jul 29, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Everytime I log into this thread it seems it’s now just about SILH son

Calls for him to “get a proper job” ?! Blimey didn’t realise it was career advise on here now

Can anyone confirm what’s a proper job ? And what other jobs are classed as 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

It's not just about him, actually it's only when Hogie brings it up again. Try logging on more often as you're missing out on some good stuff.


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## Hobbit (Jul 29, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Everytime I log into this thread it seems it’s now just about SILH son

Calls for him to “get a proper job” ?! Blimey didn’t realise it was career advise on here now

Can anyone confirm what’s a proper job ? And what other jobs are classed as 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

He’s got a proper job, when it’s up and running, and it sounds like a decent career too. Personally, I’m fed up of seeing the veiled political posts about it the govt’s responsibility to provide for him. He’s choosing a lifestyle choice of having the state look after him. Calls for him to get off his ar€e and get out there and chase meaningful employment instead of choosing to sponge off the state are valid. If he has other issues that stop him doing that, fine, he has my sympathy and compassion. But I’m heartily fed up of Hugh whining on about it.


----------



## chrisd (Jul 29, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			He’s got a proper job, when it’s up and running, and it sounds like a decent career too. Personally, I’m fed up of seeing the veiled political posts about it the govt’s responsibility to provide for him. He’s choosing a lifestyle choice of having the state look after him. Calls for him to get off his ar€e and get out there and chase meaningful employment instead of choosing to sponge off the state are valid. If he has other issues that stop him doing that, fine, he has my sympathy and compassion. But I’m heartily fed up of Hugh whining on about it.
		
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As are a lot of us Brian, well said!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 29, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			He’s got a proper job, when it’s up and running, and it sounds like a decent career too. Personally, I’m fed up of seeing the veiled political posts about it the govt’s responsibility to provide for him. He’s choosing a lifestyle choice of having the state look after him. Calls for him to get off his ar€e and get out there and chase meaningful employment instead of choosing to sponge off the state are valid. If he has other issues that stop him doing that, fine, he has my sympathy and compassion. But I’m heartily fed up of Hugh whining on about it.
		
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Understand - but maybe easier to ignore 🤷‍♂️


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 29, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			He’s got a proper job, when it’s up and running, and it sounds like a decent career too. Personally, I’m fed up of seeing the veiled political posts about it the govt’s responsibility to provide for him. He’s choosing a lifestyle choice of having the state look after him. Calls for him to get off his ar€e and get out there and chase meaningful employment instead of choosing to sponge off the state are valid. If he has other issues that stop him doing that, fine, he has my sympathy and compassion. But I’m heartily fed up of Hugh whining on about it.
		
Click to expand...

There is nothing political about what I have posted in respect of the difficulties being faced by the performing arts sector and equally the hospitality sector- and I am not whining on about it.  That some choose to read between the lines and read what is not there I cannot help - but please do not complain about what is not there.

I will not comment upon the idea that those forced onto UC as that was the government support provided as 'sponging off the state' - other than to suggest that exactly the same could be said for all of those in receipt of grants and furlough, and hanging around waiting for things to pick up.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jul 29, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys thread is about how the virus has affected you

I’m seeing travel advice as well as the established career advice element.

Can we get back on track
		
Click to expand...

coronavirus is affecting me staycation 😉😁


----------



## larmen (Jul 29, 2021)

PCR test this morning as myself and the gf are coughing like crazy. 12 hours later we got our negative results back.

They promised us 48 hours and delivered in 12. Have to cancel a day holiday tomorrow which we took to keep the little one out of the holiday club.


----------



## Billysboots (Jul 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			coronavirus is affecting me staycation 😉😁
		
Click to expand...

Staycation? 😳😂


----------



## Slime (Jul 29, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys thread is about how the virus has affected you

I’m seeing travel advice as well as the established career advice element.

*Can we get back on track*

Click to expand...

Isn't that travel advice?


----------



## Tashyboy (Jul 29, 2021)

Slime said:



			Isn't that travel advice? 

Click to expand...

😂👍


----------



## Kellfire (Jul 30, 2021)

Maybe we should address the issue that some people judge others so heavily based on how arduous their life is? The idea that someone is worth less than another because they want to work towards their dreams is baffling to me.


----------



## RichA (Jul 30, 2021)

Kellfire said:



			Maybe we should address the issue that some people judge others so heavily based on how arduous their life is? The idea that someone is worth less than another because they want to work towards their dreams is baffling to me.
		
Click to expand...


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## jim8flog (Jul 30, 2021)

D-S said:



			Just to be pedantic it’s Bridgwater (no e). Sadly doesn’t make it any better though, having said that Enmore Park GC is not a bad track and only a couple of miles away.
Bridgwater Carnival is a seriously good night out hand a really big event) but it’s not until Novemberthough
		
Click to expand...

We had a funny one year, some friends from Southampton turned up on our doorstep. They had booked to a touring caravan site just down the road at South Petherton intending to go to the Bridgwater Carnival  and were a bit shocked when we told them where North Petherton is.


----------



## jim8flog (Jul 30, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys thread is about how the virus has affected you

I’m seeing travel advice as well as the established career advice element.

Can we get back on track
		
Click to expand...

Corona virus seems to be affecting me- I cannot get out of Somerset due to all of those people that should be on flights to sunny Spain


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Jul 30, 2021)

@SwingsitlikeHogan 

Right, I’ve asked nicely, to no avail, so I’m going to stamp on this starting now

Your sons UC experience is well documented here, has been done to death and has been used to make surreptitious political comments.

So it stops, please no more posts on this subject, other posters mentioning it will have their posts removed.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 30, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



@SwingsitlikeHogan

Right, I’ve asked nicely, to no avail, so I’m going to stamp on this starting now

Your sons UC experience is well documented here, has been done to death and has been used to make surreptitious political comments.

So it stops, please no more posts on this subject, other posters mentioning it will have their posts removed.
		
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Excellent news.


----------



## Mudball (Jul 31, 2021)

Bins not collected last week.. Garbage company blaming Pingdemic and a certain B event for lack of drivers.  But no change to council charges or refunds.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 1, 2021)

More people in Tesco yesterday not wearing a mask compared to last week.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 1, 2021)

bobmac said:



			More people in Tesco yesterday not wearing a mask compared to last week.
		
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That’s going to happen as more get vaccinated and the gains more confidence in dealing with the virus


----------



## PNWokingham (Aug 1, 2021)

Haven't worn a mask at all since 19th. I did feel firmly in the minority and a little awkward at times but now more relaxed and probably in the majority


----------



## Hobbit (Aug 1, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Haven't worn a mask at all since 19th. I did feel firmly in the minority and a little awkward at times but now more relaxed and probably in the majority
		
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Still wearing mine when out and about, as per the regs here. And still avoiding certain places/circumstances. Once jabbed I’ll wander a little freely.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Aug 1, 2021)

I’m delivering cars all over the place
I’ll wear a mask if I’m sharing a car, or using public transport or a taxi.
Also wear one in shops, just seems the right thing to do 👍


----------



## larmen (Aug 1, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I’m delivering cars all over the place
I’ll wear a mask if I’m sharing a car, or using public transport or a taxi.
Also wear one in shops, just seems the right thing to do 👍
		
Click to expand...

Masks in cars are a weird one. You see people in their closed boxes not wearing one, then they pick up a passenger and the mask goes on.
I think at this point if they have the virus the cabin is already saturated anyway.
I see it mostly with private hire cars here, not been in the centre to see how black cabs are doing it. But at least they have a partition.


----------



## Ethan (Aug 1, 2021)

Well, I hope that those unwilling to wear masks are very very flipping confident that a vaccine resistant variant is not coming, because it is non-pharmacological interventions like masks, social distancing and the like that will be needed to defend against it, and those unwilling to engage in such measures who will spread it if, or when, it comes.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2021)

Still wearing a mask in shops, supermarkets and in clubhouse - though taking it off when seated.  I’ve observed a noticeable drop off in wearers.  Prob as all numbers seem to be going in the right direction.  Wonder what will happen if that changes - I fear getting mask back on will be difficult for some.


----------



## AmandaJR (Aug 1, 2021)

I hate masks but am continuing to wear them. It is mainly for the safety of others but also does make me feel safer/protected too. Also social distancing as much as possible and not over keen on being inside the clubhouse and at close quarters with others inside.


----------



## bobmac (Aug 1, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Jeez give it a rest, lets hope the pandemic ends soon so we don't have to put up with your 2 bob medical advice any longer than we have to.
		
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That's not going to go down too well


----------



## Ethan (Aug 1, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Jeez give it a rest, lets hope the pandemic ends soon so we don't have to put up with your 2 bob medical advice any longer than we have to.
		
Click to expand...

I normally ignore your drivel, but in this case, will make an exception to respectfully advise you that you can insert your utterly ignorant response somewhere from which surgical instruments will be needed to extract it. 

And my current consulting rate is a damn site more than 2 bob, pal.


----------



## Billysboots (Aug 1, 2021)

This thread is like Groundhog Day.


----------



## Crazyface (Aug 1, 2021)

I'm not happy at the moment.  I've stopped wearing a mask as soon as I could and so far have had a stomach bug and now a bluddy cold. There's defo a case to keep wearing mask when near other humans.


----------



## Imurg (Aug 1, 2021)

larmen said:



			Masks in cars are a weird one. You see people in their closed boxes not wearing one, then they pick up a passenger and the mask goes on.
I think at this point if they have the virus the cabin is already saturated anyway.
I see it mostly with private hire cars here, not been in the centre to see how black cabs are doing it. But at least they have a partition.
		
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Us Driving Instructors have to have the windows open 
Masks on, windows down and if it rains you get Covid or drown....cool choice..


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 1, 2021)

Thoughts on " young uns " getting " incentives"  to get the vaccine appreciated.
Myself, staying alive and not passing it onto parents who are in there 80,s was incentive enough.


----------



## pauljames87 (Aug 1, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Thoughts on " young uns " getting " incentives"  to get the vaccine appreciated.
Myself, staying alive and not passing it onto parents who are in there 80,s was incentive enough.
		
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I agree with a free cab to go .. but that should be to anyone who can't afford one to get there


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Aug 1, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			This thread is like Groundhog Day.
		
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Yep - it’s become a mirror of the political threads.


----------



## SocketRocket (Aug 1, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep - it’s become a mirror of the political threads.
		
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Yes, certain members keep jumping in moaning about people moaning.


----------



## BiMGuy (Aug 1, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Thoughts on " young uns " getting " incentives"  to get the vaccine appreciated.
Myself, staying alive and not passing it onto parents who are in there 80,s was incentive enough.
		
Click to expand...

In Belfast. Anyone going to the walk in vaccination centre got a free ice-cream.


----------



## Tashyboy (Aug 1, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			In Belfast. Anyone going to the walk in vaccination centre got a free ice-cream.
		
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Good old mr Whippy 😁


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I normally ignore your drivel, but in this case, will make an exception to respectfully advise you that you can insert your utterly ignorant response somewhere from which surgical instruments will be needed to extract it.

And my current consulting rate is a damn site more than 2 bob, pal.
		
Click to expand...

I commented that the insult fired at @Ethan was unacceptable, disagree with @Ethen if you wish but I thought that personal attacks were not permitted.  However my post seems to have been deleted.  No matter, I see the original post commented against has also been removed. Good.


----------



## larmen (Aug 1, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			In Belfast. Anyone going to the walk in vaccination centre got a free ice-cream.
		
Click to expand...

It’s a three class society. You get ice cream, my girlfriend got a sticker, and I got nothing.

But do we seriously have to bribe people to live? In the US they get lottery ticket, Germany is taking about Sausages, ice cream in NI.
In January people were tying to jump queues.


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## Kellfire (Aug 2, 2021)

I was at an outdoor beer festival yesterday and it felt really safe, even though by the nature of a beer festival very few people were wearing a mask.


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## Slab (Aug 2, 2021)

Woohoo, at long last managed to get first jag today & appointment for 2nd one in three weeks. Like @Hobbit its been a bit of a palava compared to UK but unlike him we at last found a way 

@Hobbit Hope you get yours soon


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## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2021)

Yet another visit to our nearest health centre to try and sort out why I’m not on the Spanish system for the jab. Took along a really good interpreter to catches any nuances I might have missed. Hallelujah, I’m on the system…. But…. Damn, I’m duplicated and won’t be called till the duplication is resolved, which can only be done with a personal visit to the regional office 50km away.

Booked an appointment there for 10am on Wednesday, along with an interpreter that works there. If I can come away from there with an AN(medical number) I can get a jab at the drop-in scheduled for Thursday about 15km away.

Everything crossed!!


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## BrianM (Aug 2, 2021)

Got my second jab today, feeling better about the whole situation now.


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## bobmac (Aug 2, 2021)

So the restrictions were eased 2 weeks ago when there were 39,359 cases.

Todays figures...21952

Encouraging


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## Ethan (Aug 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So the restrictions were eased 2 weeks ago when there were 39,359 cases.

Todays figures...21952

Encouraging
		
Click to expand...

Hospitalisations and ventilator bed occupancy slowly rising, though. Test numbers have dropped a fair bit since mid-July. I think the accuracy of community case numbers has fallen proportionately too.


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## D-S (Aug 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Hospitalisations and ventilator bed occupancy slowly rising, though. Test numbers have dropped a fair bit since mid-July. I think the accuracy of community case numbers has fallen proportionately too.
		
Click to expand...

From COVID Fact  check -

England COVID admissions are definitely falling now, in line with the recent reduction in cases.

The three most recent days were 758, 650 and 593 vs 827, 725 and 734 the previous week.

The seven day average drops to 744 from a peak of 793 last Tuesday.


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## larmen (Aug 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Hospitalisations and ventilator bed occupancy slowly rising, though. Test numbers have dropped a fair bit since mid-July. I think the accuracy of community case numbers has fallen proportionately too.
		
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Is there an indication of vacced to unvaccinated in the hospital numbers?


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## Ethan (Aug 2, 2021)

D-S said:



			From COVID Fact  check -

England COVID admissions are definitely falling now, in line with the recent reduction in cases.

The three most recent days were 758, 650 and 593 vs 827, 725 and 734 the previous week.

The seven day average drops to 744 from a peak of 793 last Tuesday.
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Test numbers are falling fast too, though.


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## Ethan (Aug 2, 2021)

larmen said:



			Is there an indication of vacced to unvaccinated in the hospital numbers?
		
Click to expand...

I don't know if that data is published, but previous studies have shown an approx 90% reduction in hospitalisation risk between doubly vaccinated and never vaccinated.


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## Beezerk (Aug 2, 2021)

larmen said:



			Is there an indication of vacced to unvaccinated in the hospital numbers?
		
Click to expand...

I heard on the news last week 80% of hospitalisations are unvaccinated.


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## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2021)

Covid passport or proof of vaccine required for entry into nightclubs in Andalucia. Similarly in Galicia, but add bars and restaurants.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Covid passport or proof of vaccine required for entry into nightclubs in Andalucia. Similarly in Galicia, but add bars and restaurants.
		
Click to expand...

Better get your skates on, or no disco for you kiddo lol


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## Hobbit (Aug 2, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Better get your skates on, or no disco for you kiddo lol
		
Click to expand...

I’m gonna organise illegal raves, and bust out some moves.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m gonna organise illegal raves, and bust out some moves.

Click to expand...

Geriatric raves  I'm in, send me an invite old pal


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## 4LEX (Aug 2, 2021)

Still 90% minimum wearing masks around my area and I continue to do so unless I forget, which has happened only twice.

Had my second jab a few weeks ago and feeling great after a bad reaction to the first one. I've found myself beginning to dislike anti vaxxers immensely in the last month or so and will be glad to see them barred from pubs, clubs and stadiums. Hilarious how the majority don't have 2 GCSE's to rub together yet know more about medicine, science and virology than professionals in those fields. If someone is scared of needles and the tiny risks fair enough, say so. Don't get defensive and spread fear or lies because you're a big baby. You know you're losing when you've got the likes of Piers Corbyn and Katie Hopkins on your side, not to mention the far left and far right. Amazing the only thing the latter pair can agree on is the virus is a hoax - says it all.

A relative younger person I've done my best to promote the vaccine and call out those nutjobs who believe in conspiracy theories and the above


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## SaintHacker (Aug 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m gonna organise illegal raves, and bust out some hips and shoulders.

Click to expand...

Fixed that for you


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 3, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m gonna organise illegal raves, and bust out some moves.

Click to expand...

What? With those feet? 😂😂


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## Hobbit (Aug 3, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			What? With those feet? 😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Tap dancing?


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## Imurg (Aug 3, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Tap dancing?
		
Click to expand...

Mind the plughole


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## Fade and Die (Aug 3, 2021)

Used the District line to get to London this morning, I noted the signs have changed to “wearing masks is a personal choice”

I would say by the time the train pulled into Mile End 70% of people had chosen to not wear one. Not me btw, I was tempted to slip on a 2nd!


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## drdel (Aug 3, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’m gonna organise illegal raves, and bust out some moves.

Click to expand...

Will your DJ be playing slipped discs?


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## williamalex1 (Aug 3, 2021)

drdel said:



			Will your DJ be playing slipped discs?
		
Click to expand...

I'm sure SILH's son will give Hobbit a small discount


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## jim8flog (Aug 3, 2021)

Slab said:



			Woohoo, at long last managed to get first *jag* today & appointment for 2nd one in three weeks. Like @Hobbit its been a bit of a palava compared to UK but unlike him we at last found a way

@Hobbit Hope you get yours soon
		
Click to expand...

 Are you going to be joining the John Prescott club and getting two of them.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 3, 2021)

drdel said:



			Will your DJ be playing slipped discs?
		
Click to expand...

The Doorman uses a metal detector to see if you can get in.


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## Slab (Aug 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Are you going to be joining the John Prescott club and getting two of them.
		
Click to expand...

I'm stuck with my wee (little) Honda 
Yeah it occurred to me last night talking to my wife that most of the planet has no idea what a jag is in this context. I guess one of those terms that's so commonly used in Scotland it just becomes the vocabulary. It'd have to be a conscious thought to use the alternate term 'jab'


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## SaintHacker (Aug 3, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Used the District line to get to London this morning, I noted the signs have changed to “wearing masks is a personal choice”

I would say by the time the train pulled into Mile End 70% of people had chosen to not wear one. Not me btw, I was tempted to slip on a 2nd!
		
Click to expand...

I thought Khan said it would still be mandatory on tfl services?


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## RichA (Aug 3, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I thought Khan said it would still be mandatory on tfl services?
		
Click to expand...

It is.


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## drdel (Aug 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The Doorman uses a metal detector to see if you can get in.
		
Click to expand...

Is Jerry and Pacemakers in town


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 3, 2021)

Nightclubs are ramming folk in like sardines, with no one wearing a mask despite most not being fully-vaccinated. They are ‘making hay while the sun shines’ because they need to and they can, and hoping and praying that it doesn’t soon cloud over.


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## fundy (Aug 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nightclubs are ramming folk in like sardines, with no one wearing a mask despite most not being fully-vaccinated. They are ‘making hay while the sun shines’ because they need to and they can, and hoping and praying that it doesn’t soon cloud over.
		
Click to expand...


and how does that affect you? and what would you change?


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## GB72 (Aug 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nightclubs are ramming folk in like sardines, with no one wearing a mask despite most not being fully-vaccinated. They are ‘making hay while the sun shines’ because they need to and they can, and hoping and praying that it doesn’t soon cloud over.
		
Click to expand...

News today only one outbreak attributable to a nightclub since opening and that was in Lincoln.


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## Beezerk (Aug 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nightclubs are ramming folk in like sardines, with no one wearing a mask despite most not being fully-vaccinated. They are ‘making hay while the sun shines’ because they need to and they can, and hoping and praying that it doesn’t soon cloud over.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know most aren't vaccinated, is it your "inside man"? 😂
You really are a drain on this forum with your constant negativity.


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## Kellfire (Aug 3, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you know most aren't vaccinated, is it your "inside man"? 😂
You really are a drain on this forum with your constant negativity.
		
Click to expand...

It’s a fairly safe assumption that the vast majority of people going to nightclubs are below 30 and less than half the population below that age have had both jabs. You can disagree with how much of an issue it is but he’s almost certainly right about the prevalence of double jabbed people at nightclubs.


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## Ethan (Aug 3, 2021)

A Twitter thread about the Covid storm hitting Florida


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## pauljames87 (Aug 3, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Used the District line to get to London this morning, I noted the signs have changed to “wearing masks is a personal choice”

I would say by the time the train pulled into Mile End 70% of people had chosen to not wear one. Not me btw, I was tempted to slip on a 2nd!
		
Click to expand...

Very much doubt they have..they will be fake signs stuck over because it's not a personal choice on the district..it is a condition of carriage


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## pauljames87 (Aug 3, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I thought Khan said it would still be mandatory on tfl services?
		
Click to expand...

See this all the time. Idiots stick fake signs over the real ones because they think it's hilarious


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## Beezerk (Aug 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



A Twitter thread about the Covid storm hitting Florida

Click to expand...

Doesn't look good, a bit like the vaccine uptake over in the USA from what I gather.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 3, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Very much doubt they have..they will be fake signs stuck over because it's not a personal choice on the district..it is a condition of carriage
		
Click to expand...

I think that’s what it must have been because on my way back I was going to photo and post here but it was gone.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 4, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I think that’s what it must have been because on my way back I was going to photo and post here but it was gone.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah they always look very genuine and real

Sad people


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## bobmac (Aug 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



A Twitter thread about the Covid storm hitting Florida

Click to expand...

Only because the Governor is an idiot


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## SaintHacker (Aug 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			News today only one outbreak attributable to a nightclub since opening and that was in Lincoln.
		
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British GP seems to have gone well, been testing myself every other day and been clear so far. Seen a few reports of positive tests but nothing to suggest a major outbreak


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 4, 2021)

fundy said:



			and how does that affect you? and what would you change?
		
Click to expand...

Directly and nothing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			News today only one outbreak attributable to a nightclub since opening and that was in Lincoln.
		
Click to expand...

One can only hope that that continues.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 4, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you know most aren't vaccinated, is it your "inside man"? 😂
You really are a drain on this forum with your constant negativity.
		
Click to expand...

Most are under 30 and my understanding is that most under 30s have not yet been fully vaccinated and for body to develop fullest protection following second vaccination

https://www.ft.com/content/33cac8ae-1716-4e29-af25-850430830d23

I am simply pointing out a risk.  The fact that the clubs are open is positive 🙄


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## PNWokingham (Aug 4, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Only because the Governor is an idiot
		
Click to expand...

and they probably have still done a lot better than the UK despite being very open through the pandemic


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## Kellfire (Aug 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			and they probably have still done a lot better than the UK despite being very open through the pandemic
		
Click to expand...

Says everything about the way we’ve handled it if true.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 4, 2021)

GB72 said:



			News today only one outbreak attributable to a nightclub since opening and that was in Lincoln.
		
Click to expand...

Are you accepting as fact that nightclubs have been/ are the source of only one outbreak?
As it happens, last evening I learned that a mate on the south coast has reported his family have Covid. Told us that......his granddaughter went to a nightclub, caught it there, gave it to her parents and thence to other family .
Of course, proving that that was where his GD caught it , is not possible, because strictly speaking it cannot be proved where 99 per cent of people  catch it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 4, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			How do you know most aren't vaccinated, is it your "inside man"? 😂
You really are a drain on this forum with your constant negativity.
		
Click to expand...

So what do you want? Only nice facts?  No "inconvenient truths"?
It is generally accepted that most under 30yr olds haven't been fully vaccinated, and a lot of 18-22 haven't had one dose.
So how is saying so a "negativity " to be criticised?
Would you prefer it  to be able to say that most under 30yrs have been double dosed?
I wouldn't,  because what would that mean about the efficacy of the protection it's meant to be offering if they had been double dosed. Because they are the age group where most of these infections are being found .
Now, that state of affairs would be a real negativity 😉


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## DRW (Aug 4, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			and they probably have still done a lot better than the UK despite being very open through the pandemic
		
Click to expand...

Per the dashboard we are 194.4 per 100,000, Florida 182.....

In USA, their record is, not as bad as alot would probably guess based on 'the science/political we must have harsh restrictions argument', Im not drawing conclusions as it is far to early to tell :-

• U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista

At some time in the future, once this has settled down, there needs to be a proper grown up discussion about what works and what didn't and for what areas(probably by the generation that has been most affected by restrictions ie the younger generations). People who believe they currently have the answers now are kidding themselves, if is far to early to tell, its early in this virus, its going to be here for a  long time..... We have so much to learn, just look at the way science attacked Sweden early on, when they followed the existing science.

People need to accept at the current state of play with imperfect vaccines/treatments and how contiguous this is, that the spread will continue, whether you vax everyone or head to a mix of vax/natural immunity(which is what is almost happening everywhere, exit strategy will be dangerous for the other countries). This will mean there is loads of spread, hospitalisations and deaths. The vaccines help to blunt the disease. We need better treatments and vaccines tbh, whether they come time will tell.

How long do you try to flatten the curve by massive restrictions based on cases.....At some time we have to start talking about increasing NHS capacity for a 2 to X year period as well, like grown up adults but that doesn't appear to be overly discussed, as we need the other services up and running like now, its mad not to. Zerocovid is just not going to happen in the UK for so many reasons.

We should all know by now, the sword is sharp on all sides.


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## Kellfire (Aug 4, 2021)

https://www.bitchute.com/video/J2M6bE65z35b/

My brother had a flyer advertising this video stuck to his windshield at the weekend. It’s amazing that some people will believe this nonsense just because it’s presented in a calm demeanour.


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2021)

DRW said:



			Per the dashboard we are 194.4 per 100,000, Florida 182.....

In USA, their record is, not as bad as alot would probably guess based on 'the science/political we must have harsh restrictions argument', Im not drawing conclusions as it is far to early to tell :-

• U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista

At some time in the future, once this has settled down, there needs to be a proper grown up discussion about what works and what didn't and for what areas(probably by the generation that has been most affected by restrictions ie the younger generations). People who believe they currently have the answers now are kidding themselves, if is far to early to tell, its early in this virus, its going to be here for a  long time..... We have so much to learn, just look at the way science attacked Sweden early on, when they followed the existing science.

People need to accept at the current state of play with imperfect vaccines/treatments and how contiguous this is, that the spread will continue, whether you vax everyone or head to a mix of vax/natural immunity(which is what is almost happening everywhere, exit strategy will be dangerous for the other countries). This will mean there is loads of spread, hospitalisations and deaths. The vaccines help to blunt the disease. We need better treatments and vaccines tbh, whether they come time will tell.

How long do you try to flatten the curve by massive restrictions based on cases.....At some time we have to start talking about increasing NHS capacity for a 2 to X year period as well, like grown up adults but that doesn't appear to be overly discussed, as we need the other services up and running like now, its mad not to. Zerocovid is just not going to happen in the UK for so many reasons.

We should all know by now, the sword is sharp on all sides.
		
Click to expand...

There is a lot to debate in there. 

For a start, the headline numbers need to be unpacked. The excess deaths observed in FL are proportionately higher than in the UK, suggesting the number of official Covid deaths is an underestimate, possibly a considerable one. 

Second, Florida also exported a lot of Covid to other states through people who travelled there. 

Third, the vaccines may be imperfect, but they comfortably exceed the expectations and are the main plank of the response. They won't get "better" except when they are updated for new variants. Vaccination is highly effective, and right now the doubly vaccinated have a 90% lower chance of being hospitalised with Covid than the unvaccinated. 

Fourth, spread is not inevitable. There are plenty of places, in Asia mostly, that have proven that you can control the spread of the virus. But you need good leadership and some courage, both of which are sadly lacking. 

Fifth, social distancing, masks and other measures have clearly had an effect. That effect can also be seen on seasonal flu which is down 95%. 

Sixth, increase NHS capacity? Are you insane? The Govt has been reducing bed numbers insidiously for years. They have no intention whatsoever to do the opposite because they only care about the next years budget. Same for PPE, ventilator numbers, you name it. Long term planning is of little political value. 

Seventh, zerocovid is a straw man argument. Nobody expect Covid to be completely eliminated, but it can be reduced to a controllable level, and we are not there yet. It is still at a point where it could easily come back very strong and hard and undo all the good, if not great, work done so far. This is precisely the wrong time to ease off.


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## drdel (Aug 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is a lot to debate in there. 

For a start, the headline numbers need to be unpacked. The excess deaths observed in FL are proportionately higher than in the UK, suggesting the number of official Covid deaths is an underestimate, possibly a considerable one. 

Second, Florida also exported a lot of Covid to other states through people who travelled there. 

Third, the vaccines may be imperfect, but they comfortably exceed the expectations and are the main plank of the response. They won't get "better" except when they are updated for new variants. Vaccination is highly effective, and right now the doubly vaccinated have a 90% lower chance of being hospitalised with Covid than the unvaccinated. 

Fourth, spread is not inevitable. There are plenty of places, in Asia mostly, that have proven that you can control the spread of the virus. But you need good leadership and some courage, both of which are sadly lacking. 

Fifth, social distancing, masks and other measures have clearly had an effect. That effect can also be seen on seasonal flu which is down 95%. 

Sixth, increase NHS capacity? Are you insane? The Govt has been reducing bed numbers insidiously for years. They have no intention whatsoever to do the opposite because they only care about the next years budget. Same for PPE, ventilator numbers, you name it. Long term planning is of little political value. 

Seventh, zerocovid is a straw man argument. Nobody expect Covid to be completely eliminated, but it can be reduced to a controllable level, and we are not there yet. It is still at a point where it could easily come back very strong and hard and undo all the good, if not great, work done so far. This is precisely the wrong time to ease off.
		
Click to expand...

Plus the fact that the pop density in  Florida is about half that of England.


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## DRW (Aug 4, 2021)

Not sure if anyone is interested on here, been reading about the past pandemics and origins etc.

An interesting link popped up, to read if anyone also has :-

Dr. Swapneil Parikh💉💉😷 on Twitter: "Was the 1889 to 1891 pandemic due to HCoV-OC43? Multi-system involvement (respiratory, GIT &amp; neurological, loss of taste and smell, protracted recovery resembling long covid, thrombosis in multiple organs. Mortality mainly in elderly, children spared. https://t.co/acSDI5BYqj" / Twitter 

And the link :-

Clinical evidence that the pandemic from 1889 to 1891 commonly called the Russian flu might have been an earlier coronavirus pandemic - Brüssow - - Microbial Biotechnology - Wiley Online Library 

Quite alot about this pandemic on the internet, if you fancy some reading, google it, quite an interesting subject. I know I need to play more golf


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			Plus the fact that the pop density in  Florida is about half that of England.
		
Click to expand...

Mmm, pop density is an over-rated factor, in my opinion. If the population was distributed evenly, it would matter more, but big empty spaces with no people in them reduce op density but make no difference to risk. 

Oz and Canada have low pop density, but both have most of their op living along the southern border or coast and massive spaces in the north or centre. Sweden is the same.


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## Hobbit (Aug 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Mmm, pop density is an over-rated factor, in my opinion. If the population was distributed evenly, it would matter more, but big empty spaces with no people in them reduce op density but make no difference to risk.

Oz and Canada have low pop density, but both have most of their op living along the southern border or coast and massive spaces in the north or centre. Sweden is the same.
		
Click to expand...

Very much agree with defining, and refining, just what is the pop density Per country and just how do they live. Many countries lean more towards apartment blocks and multi-generational living.

We’ve seen it a lot here in Spain. 3 generations in a house sees the young, mobile, generation going home every evening. And where Covid is taken home, it spreads quite quickly. It’s not only in one household as the relatively immobile, close Spanish families share it around aunts and uncles.


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## drdel (Aug 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Mmm, pop density is an over-rated factor, in my opinion. If the population was distributed evenly, it would matter more, but big empty spaces with no people in them reduce op density but make no difference to risk. 

Oz and Canada have low pop density, but both have most of their op living along the southern border or coast and massive spaces in the north or centre. Sweden is the same.
		
Click to expand...

Of course you can drill down in the granularity eg. by conurbation and so on. I was just making a high level point.


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## Ethan (Aug 4, 2021)

drdel said:



			Of course you can drill down in the granularity eg. by conurbation and so on. I was just making a high level point.
		
Click to expand...

Sure, that is fair enough, and proximity is clearly important.


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## larmen (Aug 4, 2021)

Florida is a weird one. You have a governor that wants the endorsement of the former president for his own run and has to go full anti-vaccine, and you have an population above average age because that’s ‘where people move to die’ (retire).
I don’t think any lesson can be taken from that place.


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## bobmac (Aug 4, 2021)

This might not help combat the virus in Florida ...
https://www.webcamtaxi.com/en/usa/florida/hogs-breath-saloon-bar.html


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## Hobbit (Aug 4, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Yet another visit to our nearest health centre to try and sort out why I’m not on the Spanish system for the jab. Took along a really good interpreter to catches any nuances I might have missed. Hallelujah, I’m on the system…. But…. Damn, I’m duplicated and won’t be called till the duplication is resolved, which can only be done with a personal visit to the regional office 50km away.

Booked an appointment there for 10am on Wednesday, along with an interpreter that works there. If I can come away from there with an AN(medical number) I can get a jab at the drop-in scheduled for Thursday about 15km away.

Everything crossed!!
		
Click to expand...

A tentative “woo-hooo!”

Got a bit of a roasting from the regional admin for visiting their office. Apparently the local health centre could have sorted it with a phone call. The local office don’t even know what a brewery is!

Appointment for the jab received… 5:10pm Sunday.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 6, 2021)

The headlines on Sky news are putting out some stuff ( this lunchtime)so called from the Office of National Statistics,,which to me is puzzling.
It says that 'ONS figures show an estimated 1 in 75 people  in England had Covid in the latest week'.
Three quarters of a million had Covid in the latest week?


Also PHE are saying that 'people with Delta variant have similar levels of the virus whether or not they have been vaccinated.'

So does that mean the vaccinated may be just as infectious as the non vaccinated, notwithstanding that they may not be nearly as ill from their infection?

Ethan, can you tell us please what your take is on this?


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## IainP (Aug 6, 2021)

Believe these are the words:
"Estimates from the ONS survey suggest just over 810,000 people in the UK would test positive for coronavirus in the week to 31 July, down from 950,000 people the previous week.
This equates to 1.3% of the population – or one in 80 people. The week before it was 1.5% of the population, or one in 70 people."

Obviously be mindful of _estimate_ & _survey_

They are giving a different view to absolute test cases. Would be interesting to see these kind of estimates from other countries.


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The headlines on Sky news are putting out some stuff ( this lunchtime)so called from the Office of National Statistics,,which to me is puzzling.
It says that 'ONS figures show an estimated 1 in 75 people  in England had Covid in the latest week'.
Three quarters of a million had Covid in the latest week?


Also PHE are saying that 'people with Delta variant have similar levels of the virus whether or not they have been vaccinated.'

So does that mean the vaccinated may be just as infectious as the non vaccinated, notwithstanding that they may not be nearly as ill from their infection?

Ethan, can you tell us please what your take is on this?
		
Click to expand...

I have only seen the media coverage, so it seems they are saying that vaccinated people who become unwell with Covid have similar levels of virus on board that unvaccinated people who become ill.

However, it misses the slightly critical point that people who are vaccinated are much less likely to get infected in the first place. We already know that vaccinated people who are unlucky enough to get Covid can still transmit. It doesn't follow that similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people carry similar likelihoods of transmission. They may not. There is also a more subtle statistical issue. Let's assume that the vaccinated who get infected are the 'hard cases', i.e. the people whose immunity is weakest or who get the biggest dose of virus. That is not likely to be equally true for the unvaccinated who are a much broader group including regular average citizens with decent immunity. One would expect the vaccinated group to represent a subgroup who, without vaccination would get more severe infection and do worse. Therefore the fact their viral load is similar probably conceals part of the effect of vaccination, we would expect it to be much higher and similar to the load on the worst of the unvaccinated. 

So the story could really be: If you are vaccinated, you are much less likely to get infected, but in the unlikely event you do, your viral load will be similar to the unvaccinated who were much more likely to get infected.  You'll still do better clinically as well.


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## DRW (Aug 6, 2021)

ONS is a laggy survey and really a historical record, as it is recording a mix of now passed infections, some current infections and some older infections (some people wont be passing it on and so on). But great for giving you an ideal of how wide the spread is likely to be.


I would imagine you are referring to this one, SLSL ?, this guys quite good on Twitter generally (many others have posted about it on twitter and made different comments), but anyway :-

Andrew L. Croxford on Twitter: "🧵: Late to the Singapore viral load preprint party. I’ve seen diverse takes on what this means, with some expressing concerns that vaccinated and unvaccinated can transmit equally in the first week (No QTs). Don't agree. https://t.co/yryJdQRhGE" / Twitter 

Virological and serological kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant vaccine-breakthrough infections: a multi-center cohort study (medrxiv.org) 


If you like to read all sides comments, here someone elses take(I personally love to read all sides and then use salt accordingly) :-

Dr Clare Craig on Twitter: "A positive with a Ct value of 50 is utterly meaningless. Remove those and there is no difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Why on earth were they included?" / Twitter 



Again a slightly different outlook on a different data set :-

Paul Hunter on Twitter: "New dutch study on vaccine annd transmisison https://t.co/BT4epcTgDX If you have been vaccinated and still get COVID much less likely to infect an unvaccinated family member though not much impact on more casual contacts" / Twitter 


And hows it going (which alot of professionals subscribe to and could post very similar links like this one below) :-

Paul Hunter on Twitter: "The 13rth report of REACT-1 study is probably the best estimate so far of vaccine effectiveness for infection (not just disease) in the real world. I hope in future reports they try to distinguish Pfizer from Oxford https://t.co/qSneqzWy2L" / Twitter 

And whatever you do , don't look at the efficacy data coming our of Israel, Iceland etc, after a relative short period, that's a bit more negative.  3rd doses are already being administrated at a rate as a result I think(not really look at how they are doing on that side).

Stay thin, stay healthy, stay young(!!) and stay positive


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2021)

DRW said:



Virological and serological kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant vaccine-breakthrough infections: a multi-center cohort study (medrxiv.org)

Click to expand...

Thanks, hadn't seen the paper. The conclusions are rather different to the headlines in the media.


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## DRW (Aug 6, 2021)

If today, then probably this(sorry dont read main press, was guessing), you have probably already seen it but details in release about viral load being similar per ct values on page 35 if infected at that moment) :-

Meaghan Kall on Twitter: "GOOD Morning! 🦠 3 *new* variant @PHE_uk reports now published Technical Briefing 20 https://t.co/yauGnCfooO B.1.621/VUI21-JUL-01 risk assessment https://t.co/7QAJiPrmR3 Variant update 10 https://t.co/6pbVdX1FCS https://t.co/INEKTTqXb8" / Twitter

SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation (publishing.service.gov.uk)

edit interesting detail here

James Hay on Twitter: "How and how not to compare viral loads using surveillance data in multi-strain epidemics. New preprint with @michaelmina_lab and @LeeKShaffer https://t.co/7DAdYFxz0p 1/16" / Twitter


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## Ethan (Aug 6, 2021)

DRW said:



			If today, then probably this(sorry dont read main press, was guessing), you have probably already seen it but details in release about viral load being similar per ct values on page 35 if infected at that moment) :-

Meaghan Kall on Twitter: "GOOD Morning! 🦠 3 *new* variant @PHE_uk reports now published Technical Briefing 20 https://t.co/yauGnCfooO B.1.621/VUI21-JUL-01 risk assessment https://t.co/7QAJiPrmR3 Variant update 10 https://t.co/6pbVdX1FCS https://t.co/INEKTTqXb8" / Twitter

SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation (publishing.service.gov.uk)

edit interesting detail here

James Hay on Twitter: "How and how not to compare viral loads using surveillance data in multi-strain epidemics. New preprint with @michaelmina_lab and @LeeKShaffer https://t.co/7DAdYFxz0p 1/16" / Twitter

Click to expand...

The MSM appears to have fundamentally understood this study and haven't even read the authors' conclusions. The paper basically shows that a certain approximate viral load will get you admitted, but the chance of that happening differs quite considerably between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. I don't think this tells us anything we didn't know, or at least suspect, already, and contains nothing that should raise a question over vaccination. The lab measurement issues over viral load only add to the confusion.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 7, 2021)

Ethan will probably know this:
When returning from holidaying in Spain a LFT is required. Are the ones we carry out twice weekly acceptable or does it have to be completed in Spain?

What is the difference please?

Many thanks for your help


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## SaintHacker (Aug 7, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Ethan will probably know this:
When returning from holidaying in Spain a LFT is required. Are the ones we carry out twice weekly acceptable or does it have to be completed in Spain?

What is the difference please?

Many thanks for your help
		
Click to expand...

No, you have to purchase a pcr test kit


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## Ethan (Aug 7, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No, you have to purchase a pcr test kit
		
Click to expand...

Yep, wot he said.


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## Hobbit (Aug 7, 2021)

Ruling on Covid passports for nightclubs in Andalucia, like Galicia, is overturned. Although hospital admissions is up, the increase isn’t massive.


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## theoneandonly (Aug 7, 2021)

I was in Bath yesterday and Oxford today, I'd say life is very much returning to normal. Both places heaving with tourists and such, mask wearing on the decrease and what I did see was pretty pointless any way.


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## SaintHacker (Aug 7, 2021)

Shopping earlier and it was surprising how much the mask wearing had gone down, mostly the Vicky Pollard brigade who had just ditched the sunflower lanyards, but also quite a few middle aged males which is a bit of a change. I did have an ironic chuckle at the rather large chav type 'lady' who was walking around with a mask round her wrist From what i saw today a large proportion of these people you would probably put in the 'at risk' category, maybe its time we just let natural selection take its course?


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## Pants (Aug 7, 2021)

From what I have seen recently about vehement anti-vaxers dying of Covid, we have some contenders for the 2021 Darwin Awards.


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## Hobbit (Aug 8, 2021)

Jabbed. Pfizer. Given an appt for 3 weeks today for the 2nd jab.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 8, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Jabbed. Pfizer. Given an appt for 3 weeks today for the 2nd jab.
		
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Great news. 

That seems quite close together. Is that standard in Spain? I think 8 weeks is seen as the optimum figure here but that may be also about rationing vaccines (if that is still an issue now?)


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## Ethan (Aug 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Great news.

That seems quite close together. Is that standard in Spain? I think 8 weeks is seen as the optimum figure here but that may be also about rationing vaccines (if that is still an issue now?)
		
Click to expand...

3 weeks is fine. The argument for spacing doses was somewhat contrived to give scientific cover to the political prioritisation of first doses for as many as possible, and I don't really disagree with that policy. The data came from AZ only, and was rather weak, and also is much less likely to apply to Pfizer which has a strong effect even after 1 dose.


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## patricks148 (Aug 9, 2021)

Still not feeling right so tried to get a doc appointment, told to get a cov test, already taken one which came back neg, told to get another anyway.  Had phone conversation with a Doc who said sounded like I had symptoms of someone who'd be vaccinated.  Head ache,  diaria, muscle pain, hot and cold sweats.


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## DRW (Aug 9, 2021)

Herd immunity needs to be achieved by making the virus work - Indicator (visir.is) 

The battle is a long one, narrative is slowly changing in a number of countries. Thank goodness for vaccines(+boosters to kept the effectiveness up for the at risk) to blunt the disease and help protect.

Must get in the clubhouse before September time. Not been in one since this started and use the bar levy


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## DRW (Aug 9, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Still not feeling right so tried to get a doc appointment, told to get a cov test, already taken one which came back neg, told to get another anyway.  Had phone conversation with a Doc who said sounded like I had symptoms of someone who'd be vaccinated.  Head ache,  diaria, muscle pain, hot and cold sweats.
		
Click to expand...


Hope you okay Patrick148  and it soon passes and just a an off period. Get well chap.


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## Rooter (Aug 9, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			From what i saw today a large proportion of these people you would probably put in the 'at risk' category, maybe its time we just let natural selection take its course?
		
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If it didn't strain the resources and impact everyone else, I would be 100% behind you. There are some twats out there that deserve everything they have coming to them.


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## DRW (Aug 9, 2021)

Rooter said:



			If it didn't strain the resources and impact everyone else, I would be 100% behind you. There are some twats out there that deserve everything they have coming to them.
		
Click to expand...

Cases like this are really sad and we should try to encourage and win over people to help protect themselves and other people with vaccines, I wouldn't wish harm on anyone myself :-

Ron Filipkowski on Twitter: "Attorney Leslie Lawrenson was found dead of covid at his home in Dorset, UK in June. At the time, not big news. However, the ‘Evening Standard’ just found a video he posted to Facebook 9 days before he died, saying he was glad he got it so he can prove it isn’t that bad. Watch! https://t.co/60TElRQmcz" / Twitter

Really sad, think this person hit the national headlines last week. Really sad, far better to have a primed immune system than rolling the dice on average, sad case


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## Ethan (Aug 9, 2021)

Well, if it is a choice between losing someone like this guy and some innocent ordinary civilian, no contest, bye bye shock jock anti-vaxxer.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 12, 2021)

Off to the theatre in London tonight. They have been sending emails for a few days now, what time to turn up, which door to go through, we care about your safety etc. Last night I actually read it properly. To get in you need to prove you have been double jabbed or have had a clear lateral flow test in the last 48 hours. My wife and I have both jabs, daughter only 1 so far, second is booked for next week. Thankfully we picked up a test from a late night pharmacy and registered the clear test.

Worth being aware of if anyone is going to the theatre in London, it's a London wide requirement. 

As an aside, we have been on the underground all week. A solid 5-10% of passengers are not wearing masks despite it being a requirement of travel. Much higher than I expected and higher than on the train down here. No enforcement of it either, I fact I haven't seen anyone from TFL other than at the barriers. That could be normal of course, I'm rarely here.


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## SaintHacker (Aug 12, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Off to the theatre in London tonight. They have been sending emails for a few days now, what time to turn up, which door to go through, we care about your safety etc. Last night I actually read it properly. To get in you need to prove you have been double jabbed or have had a clear lateral flow test in the last 48 hours. My wife and I have both jabs, daughter only 1 so far, second is booked for next week. Thankfully we picked up a test from a late night pharmacy and registered the clear test.

Worth being aware of if anyone is going to the theatre in London, it's a London wide requirement.

As an aside, we have been on the underground all week. A solid 5-10% of passengers are not wearing masks despite it being a requirement of travel. Much higher than I expected and higher than on the train down here. No enforcement of it either, I fact I haven't seen anyone from TFL other than at the barriers. That could be normal of course, I'm rarely here.
		
Click to expand...

It was never enforced when it was law. On our coaches we are told to ask passengers to wear them, although we can't refuse anyone who doesn't, we also play a safety briefing which asks them to wear them. They don't realise I can see them all on the cctv, you wouldn't believe the amount that put one on to board the coach then take it off once they're sat down


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## GB72 (Aug 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			It was never enforced when it was law. On our coaches we are told to ask passengers to wear them, although we can't refuse anyone who doesn't, we also play a safety briefing which asks them to wear them. They don't realise I can see them all on the cctv, you wouldn't believe the amount that put one on to board the coach then take it off once they're sat down 

Click to expand...

Agree, always been that way. I took a train up to York and asked if I needed to wear a mask on the platform as it was possibly classed as outside. I got a stock response that mask wearing was compulsory but that it was my personal choice and that the rail operator would not be enforcing mask wearing.


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## Robster59 (Aug 12, 2021)

Quite a disturbing news story from Germany
Covid: Germany fears thousands got saline, not vaccine from nurse


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## jim8flog (Aug 12, 2021)

Little bit more 'scared' yesterday I found somebody I play with occasionally but sit next to quite often is in hospital with it despite being double jabbed.


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## Imurg (Aug 12, 2021)

I get the feeling there are an awful lot of people who have seemingly given up taking this thing seriously..
The number of maskless in shops is on the rise, cases still 20k+...
And thats in Summer.....roll on Winter eh?


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## AmandaJR (Aug 12, 2021)

Lidl today and for sure a lot less mask wearing than last week. I'm being as cautious as ever and will continue to do so - don't want it thanks.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 12, 2021)

Perhaps somebody N. of the border could enlighten me please. awe are staying in Anstruther and whilst rules changed, I think, on 11/8/21 should hotel rooms need to be cleaned daily now? Thanks


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## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I get the feeling there are an awful lot of people who have seemingly given up taking this thing seriously..
The number of maskless in shops is on the rise, cases still 20k+...
And thats in Summer.....roll on Winter eh?
		
Click to expand...

Just spent 9 of the last 10 days away on holiday, some of that with the grand sproggs. It was frightening the amount of people that have now decided not to wear masks.
What was even more frightening was the report on BBC news from Deep South states in the USA. The excuses on why some people will not get vaccinated is truly shocking and frightening. Am all for people making a choice on whether you want it or not but surely one must have a valid point as to why they don’t. Some anti vaxers came across as dangerously thick.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 12, 2021)

Oh and another thing.
Missis T has long term Covid, scarring on her left lung. Last two days she has been rough as owt. So when we got home yesterday she went straight for a Covid test. Still awaiting results. She had told her mum yesterday re going for a test. Ma in law rang today and asked if she had heard owt, ” no” Missis T said. “ so who is gonna sort out your dads tablets then”. Missis T was seething. So a couple of hours later I called me mum and said we are going to have to cancel tonight’s meal because Missis T has not had her results back. Me mum said “ don’t you fancy risking it then”. I could bloody scream.


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## Ethan (Aug 12, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Little bit more 'scared' yesterday I found somebody I play with occasionally but sit next to quite often is in hospital with it despite being double jabbed.
		
Click to expand...

Being double jabbed could mean the difference between your friend walking out and being wheeled out. Hope he is all right.


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## larmen (Aug 12, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Quite a disturbing news story from Germany
Covid: Germany fears thousands got saline, not vaccine from nurse

Click to expand...

We have a couple of our own Shipman like people in the health professions.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 12, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Perhaps somebody N. of the border could enlighten me please. awe are staying in Anstruther and whilst rules changed, I think, on 11/8/21 should hotel rooms need to be cleaned daily now? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Why would it need to cleaned more often ,  if it has the same occupants ?


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## Slime (Aug 12, 2021)

A couple of staff from the golf club have tested positive with a few more being 'pinged', meaning they're isolating.
No food or drink for the next few days at least.


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## road2ruin (Aug 13, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Perhaps somebody N. of the border could enlighten me please. awe are staying in Anstruther and whilst rules changed, I think, on 11/8/21 should hotel rooms need to be cleaned daily now? Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Not north of the border, in fact about as far away as you can get as we’re in Newquay at the moment however the hotel’s policy here is that the rooms will not be properly cleaned during your stay, they did do a light clean on day 4 (of 7). If anything needs changing it is left outside of your room and they’ll leave a replacement overnight.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Not north of the border, in fact about as far away as you can get as we’re in Newquay at the moment however the hotel’s policy here is that the rooms will not be properly cleaned during your stay, they did do a light clean on day 4 (of 7). If anything needs changing it is left outside of your room and they’ll leave a replacement overnight.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly the same when we were in Bridgwater. In reception were towels, toilet rolls washing shampoo stuff. If you needed anything. Help yourself.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 13, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Why would it need to cleaned more often ,  if it has the same occupants ?
		
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Pre COVID Hotel rooms were cleaned daily, clean towels when requested, tea, coffee replenished, beds changed depending on the length of stay, loo cleaned.

Only asking whether anything has changed, not moaning about the situation, we understand COVID has not gone away


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2021)

Ever more and larger gaps appearing on the shelves of our local supermarkets.  Hopefully supply chain and delivery issues will ease once the ‘pingdemic’ restrictions are relaxed and folk return to work as furlough is tapered down and agriculture and other business reopens.


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## Kellfire (Aug 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ever more and larger gaps appearing on the shelves of our local supermarkets.  Hopefully supply chain and delivery issues will ease once the ‘pingdemic’ restrictions are relaxed and folk return to work as furlough is tapered down and agriculture and other business reopens.
		
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Supposedly the army are getting involved in helping distribute food at the moment. Ah isn’t it all going swimmingly in the UK.


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## RichA (Aug 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ever more and larger gaps appearing on the shelves of our local supermarkets.  Hopefully supply chain and delivery issues will ease once the ‘pingdemic’ restrictions are relaxed and folk return to work as furlough is tapered down and agriculture and other business reopens.
		
Click to expand...

I did a weekly shop a couple of days ago. The only thing missing was the Dorset Cereals blue muesli that MrsA likes. She's currently having to settle for one of the 12 alternatives that was available.
Isn't this the sort of talk that precipitated last year's idiotic panic buying?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 13, 2021)

RichA said:



			I did a weekly shop a couple of days ago. The only thing missing was the Dorset Cereals blue muesli that MrsA likes. She's currently having to settle for one of the 12 alternatives that was available.
Isn't this the sort of talk that precipitated last year's idiotic panic buying?
		
Click to expand...

Not the case in my local Lidl, Sainsburys and Waitrose supermarkets - quite a few big gaps and supermarket putting up signs on the shelves where there are gaps apologising - and no panic buying going on as far as we can see.  As I said - probably down to pandemic related supply chain issues so not clear to me why some disagree with what I am seeing with my own eyes and that is being widely reported - so not just my imagination.  But it is a bit irritating - though we'll get over it - I am sure.

Food shortages UK: Supermarket shelves empty ‘in weeks’ unless ‘pingdemic’ resolved | Express.co.uk

Call for action as UK driver shortage hits supermarket shelves | Supermarkets | The Guardian

Supermarket pingdemic shortages - the products affected in Tesco, Sainsbury's, Lidl, Morrisons, Aldi, Iceland revealed (thesun.co.uk)


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## SocketRocket (Aug 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not the case in my local Lidl, Sainsburys and Waitrose supermarkets - quite a few big gaps and supermarket putting up signs on the shelves where there are gaps apologising - and no panic buying going on as far as we can see.  As I said - probably down to pandemic related supply chain issues so not clear to me why some disagree with what I am seeing with my own eyes and that is being widely reported - so not just my imagination.  But it is a bit irritating - though we'll get over it - I am sure.

Food shortages UK: Supermarket shelves empty ‘in weeks’ unless ‘pingdemic’ resolved | Express.co.uk

Call for action as UK driver shortage hits supermarket shelves | Supermarkets | The Guardian

Supermarket pingdemic shortages - the products affected in Tesco, Sainsbury's, Lidl, Morrisons, Aldi, Iceland revealed (thesun.co.uk)

Click to expand...

Can't see any shortages around here.


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## D-S (Aug 13, 2021)

No shortages at all in this part of the world.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2021)

Strange that there are shortages (gaps in shelves) in some parts of the country and not others.  Now that is irritating and so I shall have to ask why that is the case when I visit my local Sainsbury’s later.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 14, 2021)

D-S said:



			No shortages at all in this part of the world.
		
Click to expand...

None?  Been lucky so far with your shopping I guess.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/perfect-storm-what-causing-gaps-5687482


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## jim8flog (Aug 14, 2021)

I shop several times a week, some days a lot of the shelves are empty other times not. The supermarkets I use are clearly having problems maintaining normal stock levels.


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## jim8flog (Aug 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Strange that there are shortages (gaps in shelves) in some parts of the country and not others.  Now that is irritating and so I shall have to ask why that is the case when I visit my local Sainsbury’s later.
		
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 My daughter was telling me the other day about her companies problems. They use a shared transport company all the companies involved were told that there would be no deliveries to the West Country for 2 weeks.


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## Ethan (Aug 14, 2021)

Noticeable empty shelves in supermarkets in my area, even Waitrose. Didn't check the quail egg supplies, though.


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## Slime (Aug 14, 2021)

Haven't noticed any shortages in my local Sainsbury's, but I only go once a week.


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## Fade and Die (Aug 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Strange that there are shortages (gaps in shelves) in some parts of the country and not others.  Now that is irritating and so I shall have to ask why that is the case when I visit my local Sainsbury’s later.
		
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I think it’s a Sainsbury’s problem, our local one is awful, they always have large gaps on their shelves, I spoke to the manager about it and he gave it the nationwide shortage spiel. I said it’s funny that the big Tesco down the rd has full shelves and so does the Lidl which is just across the rd from Sainsbury’s… They also only ever have 2 manned tills even at busy times and they try to push you into the scan and shop thing. I think it’s just poorly run.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2021)

We have. Morrisons, a Waitrose, three Co-ops, a Lidl and numerous small one stops.  None of them have empty shelves unless you go in just before they close and the late shift hasn't restocked the shelves.  Is anyone here having problems getting enough to eat? If so maybe we could organise some red cross parcels between us.


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## Beezerk (Aug 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			We have. Morrisons, a Waitrose, three Co-ops, a Lidl and numerous small one stops.  None of them have empty shelves unless you go in just before they close and the late shift hasn't restocked the shelves.  Is anyone here having problems getting enough to eat? If so maybe we could organise some red cross parcels between us.
		
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My daughter works part time in Morissons so I asked her, she said they haven't had any stock issues.


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## larmen (Aug 14, 2021)

We haven't been able to buy soya growing up milk for about a week now. The little one will have  to get used normal and much more reasonable priced milk soon. Otherwise they didn't haved iet coke but coke zero once. It seems to be a  localised/supplier little problem depending on  where the  pinging is happening.
I panic when they run out of toilet paper again.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			We haven't been able to buy soya growing up milk for about a week now. The little one will have  to get used normal and much more reasonable priced milk soon. Otherwise they didn't haved iet coke but coke zero once. It seems to be a  localised/supplier little problem depending on  where the  pinging is happening.
I panic when they run out of toilet paper again.
		
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They didn't ever run out of it, it's just that a lot was stored in people's houses.


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 14, 2021)

Plenty shortages in our local Co op , Morrison’s and Tescos 

Co Op seems to be the worst hit with lots of empty areas


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## Slime (Aug 14, 2021)

larmen said:



			We haven't been able to buy soya growing up milk for about a week now. The little one will have  to get used normal and much more reasonable priced milk soon. Otherwise they didn't haved iet coke but coke zero once. It seems to be a  localised/supplier little problem depending on  where the  pinging is happening.
*I panic when they run out of toilet paper again.*

Click to expand...

Just buy a few copies of The Sun.


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## D-S (Aug 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			None?  Been lucky so far with your shopping I guess.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/perfect-storm-what-causing-gaps-5687482

Click to expand...

I live in South Gloucestershire just north of Bristol and our local Tesco, Waitrose, Aldi and CoOp have had no noticeable supply issues at all. I can only report as I find and not as the media report it.


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## Old Skier (Aug 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			My daughter was telling me the other day about her companies problems. They use a shared transport company all the companies involved were told that there would be no deliveries to the West Country for 2 weeks.
		
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That’s because the roads a gloged up with tourists


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## Hobbit (Aug 14, 2021)

Pfizer vax reaction;


How long after the jab did they start?
What did they consist of?
How long did they last?


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## fundy (Aug 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Pfizer vax reaction;


How long after the jab did they start?
What did they consist of?
How long did they last?


Click to expand...


for us, sore arm that day then overnight dead arm and tender arm where the jab went in, flu like aches and hot and cold, lasted a couple of days. mrs fundy had a very red, raised and painful area around the jab site for 4 or 5 days after the second jab. slightly worse after the 2nd jab to the 1st. lots of fluid and paracetemol

hope youre ok Hobbit


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## IanM (Aug 14, 2021)

Our cousins in Aus are now back in lockdown.   They are not happy about it.



D-S said:



			I live in South Gloucestershire just north of Bristol and our local Tesco, Waitrose, Aldi and CoOp have had no noticeable supply issues at all. I can only report as I find and not as the media report it.
		
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Same in Tesco’s Chepstow. Full shelves.  Although my wife was visiting her mum in Surrey this week, a few gaps on shelves in Sainsbury’s in Farnham… someone panic buying?


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## Billysboots (Aug 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Pfizer vax reaction;


How long after the jab did they start?
What did they consist of?
How long did they last?


Click to expand...

First jab - a sore arm for a couple of days.

Second - felt like I had mild flu for about 24 hours.

Glad you got sorted at long last.


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## GB72 (Aug 14, 2021)

Just from my local town. All supermarkets fine except Sainsbury's which had no end of empty shelves


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## Kellfire (Aug 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Pfizer vax reaction;


How long after the jab did they start?
What did they consist of?
How long did they last?


Click to expand...

Sore arm the next morning and gone by that night, Bryan.


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## Hobbit (Aug 15, 2021)

fundy said:



			for us, sore arm that day then overnight dead arm and tender arm where the jab went in, flu like aches and hot and cold, lasted a couple of days. mrs fundy had a very red, raised and painful area around the jab site for 4 or 5 days after the second jab. slightly worse after the 2nd jab to the 1st. lots of fluid and paracetemol

hope youre ok Hobbit
		
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Billysboots said:



			First jab - a sore arm for a couple of days.

Second - felt like I had mild flu for about 24 hours.

Glad you got sorted at long last.
		
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Overnight, on day 1, arm painful enough to wake me up when I rolled onto it.
Day 4, joint ache, fuzzy head, tickly cough, ear ache.
Day 5, see above.
Yesterday, as above but with the shivers.

Today, just a bit tired and achy but well enough to go out if I wanted to. Reluctant to go out just in case I’d be taking something nasty with me.


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## fundy (Aug 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Overnight, on day 1, arm painful enough to wake me up when I rolled onto it.
Day 4, joint ache, fuzzy head, tickly cough, ear ache.
Day 5, see above.
Yesterday, as above but with the shivers.

Today, just a bit tired and achy but well enough to go out if I wanted to. Reluctant to go out just in case I’d be taking something nasty with me.
		
Click to expand...

apart from the cough seems a pretty normal reaction, would see if it settles in a couple of days, the pfizer vaccine doesnt have the virus in it so wont have got it from the vax


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## SocketRocket (Aug 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Pfizer vax reaction;


How long after the jab did they start?
What did they consist of?
How long did they last?


Click to expand...

Only a sore arm for a few days, started the next day.


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## SaintHacker (Aug 15, 2021)

Mrs had nothing with the 1st, but a very sore arm for a few days with tth 2nd, which travelled down her armpit and into her breast. She was getting quite concerned for a couple of days until one of the girls she works with said she had exactly the same thing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 15, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Pfizer vax reaction;


How long after the jab did they start?
What did they consist of?
How long did they last?


Click to expand...

Mildly sore arm that evening. Nothing else.


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## Ethan (Aug 15, 2021)

fundy said:



			apart from the cough seems a pretty normal reaction, would see if it settles in a couple of days, the pfizer vaccine doesnt have the virus in it so wont have got it from the vax
		
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None of the UK or Europe approved vaccines have live Covid-19 in them. AZ and J&J have adenovirus as a vector, but the strain involved is harmless to humans. Sinovac and Sinopharm have inactivated Covid-19 in them, the old school approach to vaccines.


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## Ethan (Aug 15, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Mrs had nothing with the 1st, but a very sore arm for a few days with tth 2nd, which travelled down her armpit and into her breast. She was getting quite concerned for a couple of days until one of the girls she works with said she had exactly the same thing.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds like enlarged lymph nodes, a sign of activation of her immune system.


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## road2ruin (Aug 15, 2021)

Appreciate that this is a first world problem however the council have collected garden waste once in the last 6 weeks due to a lack of HGV drivers and have just announced that instead of fortnightly collections they’re dropping it to monthly until the situation resolved itself. 

Like I said, not a life or death situation but annoying given I’ve pretty much filled it with grass cuttings and still have 3 weeks to go……


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## jim8flog (Aug 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Appreciate that this is a first world problem however the council have collected garden waste once in the last 6 weeks due to a lack of HGV drivers and have just announced that instead of fortnightly collections they’re dropping it to monthly until the situation resolved itself.

Like I said, not a life or death situation but annoying given I’ve pretty much filled it with grass cuttings and still have 3 weeks to go……
		
Click to expand...

 In Somerset no such collections in August or Sept.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Appreciate that this is a first world problem however the council have collected garden waste once in the last 6 weeks due to a lack of HGV drivers and have just announced that instead of fortnightly collections they’re dropping it to monthly until the situation resolved itself.

Like I said, not a life or death situation but annoying given I’ve pretty much filled it with grass cuttings and still have 3 weeks to go……
		
Click to expand...

Do you have to pay for green bin collection in your area? And if so, are they giving you a rebate as you've paid for fortnightly collections and they're now not giving you that?


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## drdel (Aug 16, 2021)

Interested in how we get from COVID to the cost of green bin collections


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			Interested in how we get from COVID to the cost of green bin collections 

Click to expand...

Bin drivers being pinged by the NHS app meaning a shortage of drivers, unable to collect green bins as the priority will always be household waste. Da da


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## larmen (Aug 16, 2021)

In a BBC article they say that if you are pinged you are ADVISED to take a test and it’s not compulsory if you are double jabbed or under 18.

Are they right? I was under the impression that it was a must have negative result rather than a do as you feel situation.

And is that the same for when you are called by test and trace, or just the app?


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## road2ruin (Aug 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you have to pay for green bin collection in your area? And if so, are they giving you a rebate as you've paid for fortnightly collections and they're now not giving you that?
		
Click to expand...

Yep, to be fair they're taking it off next years subs. More annoying than anything else but, like I said, first world problems 



drdel said:



			Interested in how we get from COVID to the cost of green bin collections 

Click to expand...

Yep, as above, due to pinging they don't have the drivers. Hoping that today's relaxations in the isolation rules means that they can free up more drivers.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 18, 2021)

larmen said:



			In a BBC article they say that if you are pinged you are ADVISED to take a test and it’s not compulsory if you are double jabbed or under 18.

Are they right? I was under the impression that it was a must have negative result rather than a do as you feel situation.

And is that the same for when you are called by test and trace, or just the app?
		
Click to expand...

They are right..it's gone a bit mental now. I guess we had to change at some point but I didn't realise the change was this much at once 

Now even if my wife tests positive I can go work.. golf. Whatever .. I'm advised (choice or not) to take pcr and my daughter can still go school 

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/

Scroll down to the section of "when do I not need to self isolate"

I must admit I thought would have been if someone in the house gets it you still isolate but evidently no


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 18, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They are right..it's gone a bit mental now. I guess we had to change at some point but I didn't realise the change was this much at once

Now even if my wife tests positive I can go work.. golf. Whatever .. I'm advised (choice or not) to take pcr and my daughter can still go school

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/

Scroll down to the section of "when do I not need to self isolate"

I must admit I thought would have been if someone in the house gets it you still isolate but evidently no
		
Click to expand...

I am suspecting that a good few folk have their fingers crossed - as I do.  Infection, hospitalisation and deaths numbers still not great and don’t seem to yet be falling significantly.


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## road2ruin (Aug 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Infection, hospitalisation and deaths numbers still not great and don’t seem to yet be falling significantly.
		
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Whilst not particularly falling they're also not really increasing if you look at the data over the last month, it's broadly plateaued. Definitely nowhere near the 100,000+ daily cases we were promised!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Whilst not particularly falling they're also not really increasing if you look at the data over the last month, it's broadly plateaued. Definitely nowhere near the 100,000+ daily cases we were promised!
		
Click to expand...

Plateaued too high, still much too many infections, deaths and hospitalisations.   If this is 'Living with it'  then its an ugly existence.


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## road2ruin (Aug 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Plateaued too high, still much too many infections, deaths and hospitalisations.   If this is 'Living with it'  then its an ugly existence.
		
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They're a whole lot betting than the numerous models that predicted horrendous numbers up to 200,000 or so infections a day with the deaths etc that would go along with it. Whilst they present numbers aren't ideal they're still an awful lot better than the predictions and I'm not entirely sure what the alternative is.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They're a whole lot betting than the numerous models that predicted horrendous numbers up to 200,000 or so infections a day with the deaths etc that would go along with it. Whilst they present numbers aren't ideal they're still an awful lot better than the predictions and I'm not entirely sure what the alternative is.
		
Click to expand...

100 people dead today is anything but ideal, neither is around 30,000 new cases.  The alternative would be for those numbers to be lower through better control of mask wearing and distancing.


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## howbow88 (Aug 18, 2021)

The amount of money I see wasted on this each day through the testing programme, is really annoying  Money should be chucked at it, but some thought and care should go into doing it. Instead it is just a case of chucking stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.


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## bobmac (Aug 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The alternative would be for those numbers to be lower through better control of mask wearing and distancing.
		
Click to expand...

How many people die from Covid after having both vaccinations?


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They're a whole lot betting than the numerous models that predicted horrendous numbers up to 200,000 or so infections a day with the deaths etc that would go along with it. Whilst they present numbers aren't ideal they're still an awful lot better than the predictions and I'm not entirely sure what the alternative is.
		
Click to expand...

Those forecasts changed behaviour. Right after 'Freedom Day', there was still a pretty high level of mask usage and social distancing but that is fading badly now.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many people die from Covid after having both vaccinations?
		
Click to expand...

I really don't have that information.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many people die from Covid after having both vaccinations?
		
Click to expand...

Don't seem to get that info, do we?
Yet ,to me it is highly relevant


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## AmandaJR (Aug 18, 2021)

I was encouraged approaching Lidl today that the first few shoppers leaving had masks on. Inside it was different though and I'd say 50/50. Once it starts tipping towards more non-wearers than wearers the risk is those wearing start to feel sub-conscious (I know I did in the early days) and mask-wearing becomes a minority/rare.

Last few golf matches there has been zero social distancing. Quite the opposite at Northampton last week as they had a wedding reception so everyone else was poked into a tiny corner of the clubhouse. I don't like it and makes me feel a bit vulnerable.


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## BiMGuy (Aug 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many people die from Covid after having both vaccinations?
		
Click to expand...

How many people actually die of covid? Rather than with or having had covid.


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## D-S (Aug 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Those forecasts changed behaviour. Right after 'Freedom Day', there was still a pretty high level of mask usage and social distancing but that is fading badly now.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a case/death level that people will be comfortable with that will enable less mask wearing and social distancing or is this permanent?


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## road2ruin (Aug 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Those forecasts changed behaviour. Right after 'Freedom Day', there was still a pretty high level of mask usage and social distancing but that is fading badly now.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not convinced they did, I think a lot of people were tired of the ridiculous forecasts by the modellers that weren’t even in the ball park of being right throughout the entire thing. They were looking to scare the general population in most instances but took it to such extremes that they lost a lot of credibility imo.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Yup.
		
Click to expand...

It was rubbish at the start, still rubbish now.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m not convinced they did, I think a lot of people were tired of the ridiculous forecasts by the modellers that weren’t even in the ball park of being right throughout the entire thing. They were looking to scare the general population in most instances but took it to such extremes that they lost a lot of credibility imo.
		
Click to expand...

Does the fact that someone got a prediction wrong make the current deaths and infections acceptable.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			Is there a case/death level that people will be comfortable with that will enable less mask wearing and social distancing or is this permanent?
		
Click to expand...

Nobody wants it to be permanent, but keeping hygiene measures until the vaccination pressed down endemic numbers more would have given us a better chance in the long run. If case numbers bounce back, there will be no option but to reinstate some measures.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Does the fact that someone got a prediction wrong make the current deaths and infections acceptable.
		
Click to expand...

It was a forecast, not a prediction. Saying that people will die if road safety is not improved is a forecast, because the (intent and) result may be to cause people to improve safety. Saying Arsenal will not qualify for the Champions League is a prediction. Well, a certainty, really.


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## road2ruin (Aug 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Does the fact that someone got a prediction wrong make the current deaths and infections acceptable.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn’t ‘a prediction’ though, it was every single prediction by quite some distance.


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## pauljames87 (Aug 18, 2021)

All it seems to me is that they have shifted the blame from the gov to the individual if you feel unwell now 

So you don't have to self isolate , economy doesn't suffer as much and firms won't refund you if you cancel because you feel unwell and don't want to chance it


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It was a forecast, not a prediction. Saying that people will die if road safety is not improved is a forecast, because the (intent and) result may be to cause people to improve safety. Saying Arsenal will not qualify for the Champions League is a prediction. Well, a certainty, really.
		
Click to expand...

That's pedantic, I think you understand what I meant .
*Forecast* is a calculation or estimate of future events.
*Prediction* is the act of declaring or indicating something in advance.
*Usage*
*Forecast* is specially used with weather and economic trends.
*Prediction* can be used in almost any context.


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## D-S (Aug 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Nobody wants it to be permanent, but keeping hygiene measures until the vaccination pressed down endemic numbers more would have given us a better chance in the long run. If case numbers bounce back, there will be no option but to reinstate some measures.
		
Click to expand...

Is there a view of what ‘more pressed down endemic numbers‘ are?


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## larmen (Aug 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many people die from Covid after having both vaccinations?
		
Click to expand...

In the US there were about 99% of deaths by unvaccinated people. That was a week or 2 ago.


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## IainP (Aug 18, 2021)

With reference to the thread title, one extremely trivial way it affected me is I became, obsessed I suppose, with checking various stats. Have been weaning myself off recently and in the spirit of closing off ...
Back on 22nd of December I noted that "the UK became the 11th country to reach the 1000 deaths per million population 🙁 The USA will follow in a few days."
Today, using this measure, the USA for the first time moved above the UK
USA  20th  1923/mil
UK     21st  1922/mil

Now, this doesn't really matter of course. I'd been tracking partly due our similar values, way of life etc. The similarity in vaccine take up (in the early months). The numbers had remained close. In spring when the UK was doing so well it came within a few days of happening but then the UK numbers picked up and the gap widened again. I guess recently USA has worsened a little faster than the UK.

I know that comparing countries is of low value, there are so many differences in what has been recorded. Peru I think deserves a mention. They revised their figures a couple of months back and jumped to the top of the list at 5899/mil

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-57307861
I'm sure there's a few other countries who haven't been as 'honest'

Incidentally Hungary top the list in Europe with 3119/mil

Anyway, time to crack on with a bit more normality....


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			Is there a view of what ‘more pressed down endemic numbers‘ are?
		
Click to expand...

It is proportional. The more you can restrict Covid while vax numbers rise, the lower the peak of the inevitable rebound. The risible Freedom Day occurred at a point when there was too much headroom for Covid, and like we saw last summer, case numbers can stay stable for a while then rebound. The Govt moved to a sort of informal herd immunity among the young policy, against scientific advice, without full realising the risk. Had they pressed on with faxing young people before doing so, might have put us in a better place.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's pedantic, I think you understand what I meant .
*Forecast* is a calculation or estimate of future events.
*Prediction* is the act of declaring or indicating something in advance.
*Usage*
*Forecast* is specially used with weather and economic trends.
*Prediction* can be used in almost any context.
		
Click to expand...

You can respond to advice about health risks and people often do, you can't change the weather. A lot of people here moan about forecasts having been wrong without realising the intent of the forecast was to prevent the forecast becoming true. 

I could point to a few other forecasts/predictions in another area of you know what which were very wrong, but they don't mention those.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You can respond to advice about health risks and people often do, you can't change the weather. A lot of people here moan about forecasts having been wrong without realising the intent of the forecast was to prevent the forecast becoming true.

I could point to a few other forecasts/predictions in another area of you know what which were very wrong, but they don't mention those.
		
Click to expand...

It's perfectly proper to use 'Prediction' to explain how someone gave a considered view on how infection rates could possibly multiply in the future.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 18, 2021)

Not sure what the next year holds for Australia and NZ. This disease will invade anywhere and a no covid strategy seems doomed to failure - albeit they have done a great job of keeping deaths down so far but that isolationist strategy surely cannot contniue much longer


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## Pants (Aug 18, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			How many people actually die of covid? Rather than with or having had covid.
		
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And that's a question that I can't see that you will get an answer to and, to my mind, is where the "stats" are flawed.  I personally know of 3 people, two relatives and the wife of a close friend, who were deaths recorded as within 28 days of testing positive blah blah blah.  All three were on their last legs and were taken into hospital because their condition couldn't be managed in the care home/at home.  Basically, taken into hospital to die - and they did, although possibly a few days later than they otherwise would have done.  Surprise, surprise.  They all "tested positive" so were, we assume, included in the Covid related deaths.


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## IainP (Aug 19, 2021)

Pants said:



			And that's a question that I can't see that you will get an answer to and, to my mind, is where the "stats" are flawed.  I personally know of 3 people, two relatives and the wife of a close friend, who were deaths recorded as within 28 days of testing positive blah blah blah.  All three were on their last legs and were taken into hospital because their condition couldn't be managed in the care home/at home.  Basically, taken into hospital to die - and they did, although possibly a few days later than they otherwise would have done.  Surprise, surprise.  They all "tested positive" so were, we assume, included in the Covid related deaths.  

Click to expand...

This has likely been debated on here previously. Really is the question you and @BiMGuy actually answerable? There will be cases at either end of the spectrum, likes the ones quoted above, and say 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-58080116
But a lot of uncertainty in between.
Disagree on the stats comment though - it is clear what they are, it is more how people choose to interpret them. Perhaps a stat better suited is to look at the excess mortality compared to the 5 year average  - maybe that is closer to the question.
Incidentally, the last couple of weeks (Eng&Wales) it has been running at over 1 thousand a week above that average. There were some "under" weeks at various points, like a couple of months back but I think it's easy to see trends.

There are several places like gov, ons, I think these give some good options -
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/


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## Backache (Aug 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Had they pressed on with faxing young people before doing so, might have put us in a better place.
		
Click to expand...

Don't think many young people would know what a fax is.


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2021)

Backache said:



			Don't think many young people would know what a fax is.
		
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Ah, good point.


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## DRW (Aug 19, 2021)

IainP said:



			This has likely been debated on here previously. Really is the question you and @BiMGuy actually answerable? There will be cases at either end of the spectrum, likes the ones quoted above, and say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-58080116
But a lot of uncertainty in between.
Disagree on the stats comment though - it is clear what they are, it is more how people choose to interpret them. Perhaps a stat better suited is to look at the excess mortality compared to the 5 year average  - maybe that is closer to the question.
Incidentally, the last couple of weeks (Eng&Wales) it has been running at over 1 thousand a week above that average. There were some "under" weeks at various points, like a couple of months back but I think it's easy to see trends.

There are several places like gov, ons, I think these give some good options -
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/

Click to expand...

The problem with stats is that they can show what you are looking for, rather than what you should be looking at(ie. not looking for confirmation bias in what you believe is the case before looking)

Thats the hardest bit with data/trials etc, is missing what you should think about.

Do you think other things should be taken into account when looking at excess deaths ? (ie. try to pick holes in the graph above or at least ask questions to see if they change the look of the data). I can see matters from a quick look(unless I have read the summary wrong)

1)  why use the five year average ? [for your personal interest, you may wish to look at the last say 20-30 years. Tends to shine a different light on some of it]
2) why is not adjusted it for the age in the population [as the age of the population can vary this quite a bit, as a naturally ageing population shews your graph, ie. if everyone lives five years longer now than 20 years ago, then you are going to see an increase in excess deaths but isnt when compared to the age]
3) Have you looked at the excess deaths being recorded at home week on week, throughout this period.

May not fit what you want it to fit and makes you ask other questions.

Excess deaths will also increase in the follow years, due to the early lack of treatment being provided by the NHS, have a read of a few cancer specialist twitter feeds to hear about it, Ive come across one case like that(who knows if it would have saved that person). Think of beast scanning, as an early intervention.

So many sides to all of this, which in many years to come will be unfolded and picked on. I agree many people have died purely due to covid, I know of some but also know of some who have been put as died with covid like pants says(really down to old age/end of life problems).

All in its a complete poo picture, edit death is depressing.


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2021)

DRW said:



			The problem with stats is that they can show what you are looking for, rather than what you should be looking at(ie. not looking for confirmation bias in what you believe is the case before looking)

Thats the hardest bit with data/trials etc, is missing what you should think about.

Do you think other things should be taken into account when looking at excess deaths ? (ie. try to pick holes in the graph above or at least ask questions to see if they change the look of the data). I can see matters from a quick look(unless I have read the summary wrong)

1)  why use the five year average ? [for your personal interest, you may wish to look at the last say 20-30 years. Tends to shine a different light on some of it]
2) why is not adjusted it for the age in the population [as the age of the population can vary this quite a bit, as a naturally ageing population shews your graph, ie. if everyone lives five years longer now than 20 years ago, then you are going to see an increase in excess deaths but isnt when compared to the age]
3) Have you looked at the excess deaths being recorded at home week on week, throughout this period.

May not fit what you want it to fit and makes you ask other questions.

Excess deaths will also increase in the follow years, due to the early lack of treatment being provided by the NHS, have a read of a few cancer specialist twitter feeds to hear about it, Ive come across one case like that(who knows if it would have saved that person). Think of beast scanning, as an early intervention.

So many sides to all of this, which in many years to come will be unfolded and picked on. I agree many people have died purely due to covid, I know of some but also know of some who have been put as died with covid like pants says(really down to old age/end of life problems).

All in its a complete poo picture, edit death is depressing.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with looking at 25-30 years as a baseline for death rate is that bigger societal effects kick in, for example smoking bans and cessation, and the demographics of the population changes more, i.e. "ages". Using a 5 year baseline reduces the effects of those, but amplifies the effect of short term external effects. Life expectancy does not increase 5 years over a 20 year period, more like 2 years.

On the issue of dying "with" rather than "due to" Covid, two points.

First, the background risk of death within the next 28 days (the window for the period where a Covid test classifies a death as a Covid death), is really pretty low, even for older people. The one month risk of death for the average person aged 60 is less than 0.1%, and even at age 80 no more than 0.5%. So the number of people who have an unrelated heart attack, get hit by a bus or have an aircraft engine fall on them whilst they are in the 28 day period following a positive Covid test are vanishingly small.

Second, older people often/usually die from multiple causes. They may have a heart attack or get pneumonia, but the outcome of that illness mizes with their frailty,. dodgy renal function, poor lung function, all of the above and precipitate a hospital admission or death. Exactly the same happens with older people who die from the flu every winter, or people who fractured their neck of femur (hip) and end up in hospital and never come out. Covid can therefore be the straw that breaks the camels back, even a mildish case that a young person would manage with a few paracetamol. In epidemiology, there is a term called 'attributable risk'. What this basically means is that if Covid contributes to increasing a baseline death rate from 10000 people to 11000 people, it is considered to be responsible for 1000 deaths even though you can't say it was the sole or main cause in any of the 11000.


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## DRW (Aug 19, 2021)

Life expectancy, ONS and also attach the statista which shows similar.

Amazing when you look back to the 1765, a doubling of the average age after childbirth.

A miracle of the modern day medicine/life. Don't really have anything else to add, but always interesting putting bits of the equations together.



Returning to cases, (I know this will go down badly here), but If you believe that the virus will go endemic and lets say everyone is going to catch it on average once every four years on average(appears to be part of the course for some other viruses in some long term studies, still hard to get my head around that), that probably means something like an average of 45,000-50,000 cases a day forever(edit. probably lower in summer, higher in autumn etc), if we test/pick up all cases.......


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2021)

DRW said:



View attachment 38066

View attachment 38067

Life expectancy, ONS and also attach the statista which shows similar.

Amazing when you look back to the 1765, a doubling of the average age after childbirth.

A miracle of the modern day medicine/life. Don't really have anything else to add, but always interesting putting bits of the equations together.



Returning to cases, (I know this will go down badly here), but If you believe that the virus will go endemic and lets say everyone is going to catch it on average once every four years on average(appears to be part of the course for some other viruses in some long term studies, still hard to get my head around that), that probably means something like an average of 45,000-50,000 cases a day forever(edit. probably lower in summer, higher in autumn etc), if we test/pick up all cases.......
		
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The virus will become endemic and be part of the mix of viruses which people get exposed to pretty often. But if immunity, through vaccination, and evolving immunity in people (like we now have for flu), gets to a decent level, then we will not see pandemics unless a new bad variant arises, and that will be fairly uncommon. Most people will get minor exposure, get a cold, perhaps a bad cold, but recover and have a relatively low risk of onward transmission. 

Most of the life expectancy gain above has come through public health measures - clean water, better food, less environmental pollution. Apart from antibiotics, the contribution of other medicines has been much less in comparison, although they contribute to quality of life quite a bit. Even in the early part of this century, perinatal and infant death rates, often due to cholera, and youngish death due to TB and others, were very common.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They're a whole lot betting than the numerous models that predicted horrendous numbers up to 200,000 or so infections a day with the deaths etc that would go along with it. Whilst they present numbers aren't ideal they're still an awful lot better than the predictions and I'm not entirely sure what the alternative is.
		
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Do you understand statistical estimation, predictions and associated levels of uncertainty in system state modelling?  I am sure that most here do, but some choose to spin worst case estimates with significant levels of uncertainty as ‘promises’…and that is simply disingenuous and designed to confuse the public and undermine confidence in those trying to help us understand the dynamics of coronaviral spread to find a way through and out of our current situation.


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## jim8flog (Aug 19, 2021)

The number of cases in Bridgewater has double during the past week. They are putting it down to outside visitors


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## SocketRocket (Aug 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			The number of cases in Bridgewater has double during the past week. They are putting it down to outside visitors

Click to expand...

Must have been Tash 🙂


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## PhilTheFragger (Aug 19, 2021)

The Mexican variant?

Sorry Tash me man, couldn’t resist 👍


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## GB72 (Aug 19, 2021)

Just scary reading some American attitudes. Mentioned in another post that a resort I love in Antigua has gone vaccinated only. The venom and vitriol from some in the states on their Facebook group is an eye opener. The 'how dare a resort group or country tell Americans what to do' how it cannot be  legal as they are threatening their freedom of choice, how they want the hotel to fail and go bust and that is before the issues about the vaccine itself. I have never read a more self centred diatribe with no care or concern about the country they are visiting. 

Having seen some of the attitudes to tests etc to travel there previously (demanding to be able to use at home tests where they can waive a swan within ten feet of their nose and claim they are clear) then this, I can see a US ban coming up now that more of Europe can travel. 

Hope this is not seen as political, people have the right to chose if they want to be vaccinated, just a comment if selfish attitudes


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Just scary reading some American attitudes. Mentioned in another post that a resort I love in Antigua has gone vaccinated only. The venom and vitriol from some in the states on their Facebook group is an eye opener. The 'how dare a resort group or country tell Americans what to do' how it cannot be  legal as they are threatening their freedom of choice, how they want the hotel to fail and go bust and that is before the issues about the vaccine itself. I have never read a more self centred diatribe with no care or concern about the country they are visiting.

Having seen some of the attitudes to tests etc to travel there previously (demanding to be able to use at home tests where they can waive a swan within ten feet of their nose and claim they are clear) then this, I can see a US ban coming up now that more of Europe can travel.

Hope this is not seen as political, people have the right to chose if they want to be vaccinated, just a comment if selfish attitudes
		
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The Gov of Florida has made it illegal to issue mask mandates, employers to demand compulsory vaccination, testing as a condition for anything, even asking someone if they are vaccinated. It is all culture war stuff.


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## drdel (Aug 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The Gov of Florida has made it illegal to issue mask mandates, employers to demand compulsory vaccination, testing as a condition for anything, even asking someone if they are vaccinated. It is all culture war stuff.
		
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Intelligence is not a criteria for politicians


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## Tashyboy (Aug 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			The number of cases in Bridgewater has double during the past week. They are putting it down to outside visitors

Click to expand...

😳purely coincidence. I mean am from Mansfield which has the second highest rate of infections in the country 😖😳


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## Tashyboy (Aug 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Must have been Tash 🙂
		
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😳😂😂😂😂


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## Tashyboy (Aug 19, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The Mexican variant?

Sorry Tash me man, couldn’t resist 👍
		
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That’s three more on ignore you, socket and Jim 👍😂


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## Tashyboy (Aug 19, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The Mexican variant?

Sorry Tash me man, couldn’t resist 👍
		
Click to expand...

 2 shots of tequila and your vaccinated. 😁


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## Tashyboy (Aug 21, 2021)

Talking to Missis T this morning. She mentioned when she went out the other night with 4 women who she did her nurse training with last decade. One of the women has been heavily involved with vaccinations since day one. she said “ when we first started vaccinations it was quiet, deaths rates shot up and vaccinations went through the ceiling, we were inundated. Now we just cannot get the young uns in to get vaccinated”. 
Now I was very surprised by this. I remember at various stages through this pandemic, the younger generation were not best pleased having restrictions placed upon them due to high deaths rates amongst the elderly. Now it is time for the younger generation to do there bit re vaccination, it’s not happening to the levels one would hope. I fully get that the younger ones are stronger with less underlying health issues. But having just seen a young woman on the news suffering with long Covid. Why are the younger generation snubbing vaccines?


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## bobmac (Aug 21, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Why are the younger generation snubbing vaccines?
		
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Because the vaccine is a poison that will kill unborn babies, reduce sperm count and make you magnetic.....according to the experts on twitter and facebook.
It's even worse across the pond.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 21, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It's even worse across the pond.
		
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I saw a photo of a t shirt today that was printed with the words, "If you don't need a vaccine because God will protect you, why do you need a gun?"


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## road2ruin (Aug 21, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Why are the younger generation snubbing vaccines?
		
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A possible answer is that maybe an awful lot of this age group have had it and so have natural immunity. Longer term that’s surely better than boosters as they’re younger and so having a yearly booster simply isn’t practical. 

Article about it on the BBC website…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58270098


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2021)

I think they have a belief that covid won't impact them, they will just brush it off. On the whole they are right. They then ask themselves why take a new vaccine when catching the virus barely makes them ill? They don't need it in their eyes.

I'm not saying I agree but that is the thinking, as I've heard it anyway.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			A possible answer is that maybe an awful lot of this age group have had it and so have natural immunity. Longer term that’s surely better than boosters as they’re younger and so having a yearly booster simply isn’t practical. 

Article about it on the BBC website…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58270098

Click to expand...

IIRC didn't Ethan say that natural antibodies plus vaccine is better than the former alone?
IOW, if you have an army, it also helps if another army fights with you😊


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			A possible answer is that maybe an awful lot of this age group have had it and so have natural immunity. Longer term that’s surely better than boosters as they’re younger and so having a yearly booster simply isn’t practical. 

Article about it on the BBC website…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58270098

Click to expand...

As I read the article, it isn't saying having the virus is preferable to having the vaccine ,thus recommending declining the vaccine.
They are saying that after initial antibody( and T cell) acquisition , then booster vaccine is less desirable than later exposures to the virus.
Here is a quote from the article that seems to support being vaccinated.

"There is clear evidence that adults who have not had any vaccine dose will have stronger immune defences if they do get vaccinated, even if they have caught Covid before."

No way does the article support not having the vaccine at all.


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## road2ruin (Aug 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No way does the article support not having the vaccine at all.
		
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I agree that the article isn't arguing against vaccination, my suggestion was that if you're amongst the younger generation your attitude is more likely to be that "I've got natural immunity (assuming they've had it) so I'll go with that rather than having the vaccine on top". 

Given that the vaccine does loose efficacy over time though surely natural immunity is going to be the only way forward long term, I can see boosters being offered once or twice a year to the entire population?


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I agree that the article isn't arguing against vaccination, my suggestion was that if you're amongst the younger generation your attitude is more likely to be that "I've got natural immunity (assuming they've had it) so I'll go with that rather than having the vaccine on top". 

Given that the vaccine does loose efficacy over time though surely natural immunity is going to be the only way forward long term, I can see boosters being offered once or twice a year to the entire population?
		
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Yes, that may be their attitude, I agree. But the article suggests ( though not too clearly ) that it is still better to have the natural immunity afforded by infection plus a vaccination.
That is less obvious because the main thrust was the Profs suggesting that offering continual boosters to the population was less efficient than repeated exposures to the virus. The latter way building stronger immunity.


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## Imurg (Aug 21, 2021)

What i find quite interesting is the difference in daily numbers between now and this time last year..
Middle of August 2020 we were seeing total new cases of a thousand or less and deaths in single figures.
Now, 30k new cases and 100+ deaths a day and nobody seems to be batting an eyelid.
People were losing their minds over numbers like these at one time
Have we, as a general public, reached our "acceptable " level of cases and deaths?
I know hospitalisation numbers are crucial as well but these numbers seem consistently high.


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## Hobbit (Aug 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What i find quite interesting is the difference in daily numbers between now and this time last year..
Middle of August 2020 we were seeing total new cases of a thousand or less and deaths in single figures.
Now, 30k new cases and 100+ deaths a day and nobody seems to be batting an eyelid.
People were losing their minds over numbers like these at one time
Have we, as a general public, reached our "acceptable " level of cases and deaths?
I know hospitalisation numbers are crucial as well but these numbers seem consistently high.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe less people care because they´ve been jabbed.


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## road2ruin (Aug 21, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe less people care because they´ve been jabbed.
		
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Maybe with the success of England’s vaccination program this is being accepted as life now. We can’t do much more than we are now as, in my experience, mask wearing is still pretty good so this is it.


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## bobmac (Aug 22, 2021)

It could be worse, you could live in Mississippi 

Doctors and scientists tell the people of Mississippi to take the free Covid-19 vaccine.
Nope.
Instead, they are buying Ivermectin for Covid-19 from their live stock supply centres.
Ivermectin is used to de-worm horses.
Guess why they are buying and taking de-worming medication and not the free proven vaccine






They should be taken off the air


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## Ethan (Aug 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			It could be worse, you could live in Mississippi

Doctors and scientists tell the people of Mississippi to take the free Covid-19 vaccine.
Nope.
Instead, they are buying Ivermectin for Covid-19 from their live stock supply centres.
Ivermectin is used to de-worm horses.
Guess why they are buying and taking de-worming medication and not the free proven vaccine






They should be taken off the air 

Click to expand...

Ivermectin does not work for Covid and has some serious toxicity issues. it may have antiviral properties in a test tube, but human physiology turns out to be a tad more complicated.


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## Backache (Aug 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Ivermectin does not work for Covid and has some serious toxicity issues. it may have antiviral properties in a test tube, but human physiology turns out to be a tad more complicated.
		
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Don't think it's known with any degree of confidence whether or not it works.
Oxford University are just starting a large RCT to find out.
All trials so far have been small with mixed results.


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## Ethan (Aug 22, 2021)

Backache said:



			Don't think it's known with any degree of confidence whether or not it works.
Oxford University are just starting a large RCT to find out.
All trials so far have been small with mixed results.
		
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The trials so far have been a mix of well conducted, and mostly negative, and badly conducted, and occasionally positive. Studies will sometimes show positive results based on chance alone, other times they have been deliberately set up to show the desired effect.

It is now clear that the overall data set available, when poorly designed and conducted studies are removed, show that it simply does not work, and almost certainly does a lot of harm. There is no meaningful support for it in the medical and scientific community. The Oxford study is probably now somewhat regretted, but a publication on your CV is a publication, so not a complete waste of time.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2021)

Imurg said:



			What i find quite interesting is the difference in daily numbers between now and this time last year..
Middle of August 2020 we were seeing total new cases of a thousand or less and deaths in single figures.
Now, 30k new cases and 100+ deaths a day and nobody seems to be batting an eyelid.
People were losing their minds over numbers like these at one time
Have we, as a general public, reached our "acceptable " level of cases and deaths?
I know hospitalisation numbers are crucial as well but these numbers seem consistently high.
		
Click to expand...

Currently the infection rate is approx equal to the population of Bristol every two weeks and looks like it's going to get worse this winter.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 22, 2021)

worth a read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/22/hidden-immunity-booster-jabs-may-not-needed/

Hidden immunity: Why booster jabs may not be needed after all
Studies suggest people may not require a third vaccination despite falling antibody levels among the elderly

By
Sarah Knapton,
 SCIENCE EDITOR
22 August 2021 • 6:00pm
Anyone keeping an eye on coronavirus antibody levels in Britain may have noticed an alarming trend in recent months.

Since peaking in May, the percentage of older people who are testing positive for protective antibodies has been steadily declining. It rose to 95 per cent for the over-80s, and has now fallen to 92.4.

In fact, only the under-50s are not seeing a drop in antibody levels, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

This signal of waning immunity has led to calls for booster jabs ahead of a winter wave.

But several studies have come out in the last few months that suggest we might not need to be too worried after all. Antibodies are not the only indicator of immunity.

In May, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine, who studied 77 recovering Covid patients found that while antibodies declined over time, bone marrow plasma cells, capable of producing antibodies against the virus, remained stable.

Dialed-down protection could last a lifetime
It means that people who have recovered from an infection have immunity hidden away in their bones ready to spring into action. This type of dialed-down protection could last decades, or even a lifetime, the researchers believe.

The team also found patients were carrying memory B-cells - a type of white blood cell - which patrols the blood looking for the virus.

In fact, the researchers noted that the levels of B-cells found in recovered Covid-19 patients are equal to people vaccinated against tetanus or diphtheria, both vaccines that provide long-term immunity to those diseases.

Similarly, researchers from The Rockefeller University, New York, recently found that recovered Covid patients still have immunity a year after infection, including antibodies that were "exceptionally resistant" to variants.

“The data suggest that immunity in convalescent individuals will be very long lasting and that convalescent individuals who receive available mRNA vaccines will produce antibodies and memory B-cells that should be protective against circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants,” the researchers concluded.

The problem with only looking at antibodies is it gives a false picture of the level of protection. The body is efficient, and will not continue to produce high-levels of antibodies when they are no longer needed.

Blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away
This is a good thing, as it prevents the onset of auto-immunity which can lead to a slew of debilitating conditions. Instead, the blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away, while a casual surveillance is mounted by the immune system.

But bone marrow and B-cells are not all the body has stashed away for a future fight. Last year, Imperial College found that people who had recovered from Covid still had memory T-cells even after antibodies had waned. T-cells are a kind of white blood cell which stores the details of a past infection and can quickly multiply on re-exposure, providing a rapid response to an invader.

T-cells may also have the added benefit of being able to fight variants. While antibodies only detect proteins on the outside of cells, such as the spike protein which the virus uses to latch on to human cells, T-cells can hone in on proteins inside infected cells. Crucially, many of these do not change when the virus mutates.

Earlier this year, scientists at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California found that people infected by Covid generate T-cells that target at least 15 to 20 different fragments of coronavirus proteins, and would work even against worrying mutations such as the 501Y.V2 mutation found in the South Africa (beta) variant.

Infections from the original Sars virus have also produced immunity in recovered patients that have lasted decades. A study by scientists in Singapore, published last week, found that Sars patients who were vaccinated against Covid produced high levels of neutralizing antibodies against both viruses.

It suggests that memory regions of the immune system were jogged into action by the vaccine, raising hope that coronavirus infection or vaccination offers long-term protection which can be easily ramped up if the virus re-emerges.

Certainly we are not seeing any indication that vaccinated people are becoming more at risk for reinfection. Although there have been some breakthrough infections with the delta variant, the vast majority (82 per cent) of people catching Covid currently have not had two doses.

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is expected to advise that booster vaccinations will not be rolled out to the wider population, although some more vulnerable people may be offered a third jab. For most of us, it is likely we will be safe enough with just two.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 22, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			worth a read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/22/hidden-immunity-booster-jabs-may-not-needed/

Hidden immunity: Why booster jabs may not be needed after all
Studies suggest people may not require a third vaccination despite falling antibody levels among the elderly

By
Sarah Knapton,
 SCIENCE EDITOR
22 August 2021 • 6:00pm
Anyone keeping an eye on coronavirus antibody levels in Britain may have noticed an alarming trend in recent months.

Since peaking in May, the percentage of older people who are testing positive for protective antibodies has been steadily declining. It rose to 95 per cent for the over-80s, and has now fallen to 92.4.

In fact, only the under-50s are not seeing a drop in antibody levels, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

This signal of waning immunity has led to calls for booster jabs ahead of a winter wave.

But several studies have come out in the last few months that suggest we might not need to be too worried after all. Antibodies are not the only indicator of immunity.

In May, researchers at Washington University School of Medicine, who studied 77 recovering Covid patients found that while antibodies declined over time, bone marrow plasma cells, capable of producing antibodies against the virus, remained stable.

Dialed-down protection could last a lifetime
It means that people who have recovered from an infection have immunity hidden away in their bones ready to spring into action. This type of dialed-down protection could last decades, or even a lifetime, the researchers believe.

The team also found patients were carrying memory B-cells - a type of white blood cell - which patrols the blood looking for the virus.

In fact, the researchers noted that the levels of B-cells found in recovered Covid-19 patients are equal to people vaccinated against tetanus or diphtheria, both vaccines that provide long-term immunity to those diseases.

Similarly, researchers from The Rockefeller University, New York, recently found that recovered Covid patients still have immunity a year after infection, including antibodies that were "exceptionally resistant" to variants.

“The data suggest that immunity in convalescent individuals will be very long lasting and that convalescent individuals who receive available mRNA vaccines will produce antibodies and memory B-cells that should be protective against circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants,” the researchers concluded.

The problem with only looking at antibodies is it gives a false picture of the level of protection. The body is efficient, and will not continue to produce high-levels of antibodies when they are no longer needed.

Blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away
This is a good thing, as it prevents the onset of auto-immunity which can lead to a slew of debilitating conditions. Instead, the blueprints for making antibodies are squirrelled away, while a casual surveillance is mounted by the immune system.

But bone marrow and B-cells are not all the body has stashed away for a future fight. Last year, Imperial College found that people who had recovered from Covid still had memory T-cells even after antibodies had waned. T-cells are a kind of white blood cell which stores the details of a past infection and can quickly multiply on re-exposure, providing a rapid response to an invader.

T-cells may also have the added benefit of being able to fight variants. While antibodies only detect proteins on the outside of cells, such as the spike protein which the virus uses to latch on to human cells, T-cells can hone in on proteins inside infected cells. Crucially, many of these do not change when the virus mutates.

Earlier this year, scientists at the La Jolla Institute for Immunology in California found that people infected by Covid generate T-cells that target at least 15 to 20 different fragments of coronavirus proteins, and would work even against worrying mutations such as the 501Y.V2 mutation found in the South Africa (beta) variant.

Infections from the original Sars virus have also produced immunity in recovered patients that have lasted decades. A study by scientists in Singapore, published last week, found that Sars patients who were vaccinated against Covid produced high levels of neutralizing antibodies against both viruses.

It suggests that memory regions of the immune system were jogged into action by the vaccine, raising hope that coronavirus infection or vaccination offers long-term protection which can be easily ramped up if the virus re-emerges.

Certainly we are not seeing any indication that vaccinated people are becoming more at risk for reinfection. Although there have been some breakthrough infections with the delta variant, the vast majority (82 per cent) of people catching Covid currently have not had two doses.

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) is expected to advise that booster vaccinations will not be rolled out to the wider population, although some more vulnerable people may be offered a third jab. For most of us, it is likely we will be safe enough with just two.
		
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I notice throughout this piece that the results refer to people who have recovered from infection. Not those who have merely been vaccinated!
However, the last two paragraphs suggest that vaccinated may not need booster jabs, based it seems on the previous parts of the piece.
But , as I say, that talks of recovered people. So there is somewhat of a leap here , is there not?
Perhaps Ethan could give his view on this?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I notice throughout this piece that the results refer to people who have recovered from infection. Not those who have merely been vaccinated!
However, the last two paragraphs suggest that vaccinated may not need booster jabs, based it seems on the previous parts of the piece.
But , as I say, that talks of recovered people. So there is somewhat of a leap here , is there not?
Perhaps Ethan could give his view on this?
		
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Yes, I thought the same.  More vulnerable people can't be expected to catch a virus that has a good chance of killing them so they are better protected afterwards.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Currently the infection rate is approx equal to the population of Bristol every two weeks and looks like it's going to get worse this winter.
		
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There have been several posts recently mentioning the increased immunity afforded to vaccinated persons who also later become infected ( or vice versa)and that this "combination "is an immunity better than that which may be acquired by those who have only been vaccinated and then receive booster jabs.
Couple this with the apparent situation where the overwhelming percentage of serious illness now from Covid is amongst the unvaccinated, and it seems that if we, the vaccinated, come into contact with the virus, we may finish up with a population with a strong(er)immunity😳
Is this the reality, or the desired answer?
Is it the inevitable only way it is going to go.?
What would the figures be if the (unfortunate) significant numbers of refusers were instead vaccinated?


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I thought the same.  More vulnerable people can't be expected to catch a virus that has a good chance of killing them so they are better protected afterwards.
		
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But they needn't be vulnerable now, need they?  If vaccinated!
Tricky one this, what is the risk of serious outcome if vaccinated become infected. We don't seem to be too much informed about this.


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## larmen (Aug 22, 2021)

After the US published a few weeks ago that 99% (or was it 95%?) of death were by unvaccinated people Germany published that they have now released numbers where 90% in ICU are unvaccinated.

I think currently it still looks fairly promising for us who have chosen to protect ourselves. My interpretation is that the numbers seems to be going up in a 4th wave, but largely by people who have chosen to participate in that wave.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I notice throughout this piece that the results refer to people who have recovered from infection. Not those who have merely been vaccinated!
However, the last two paragraphs suggest that vaccinated may not need booster jabs, based it seems on the previous parts of the piece.
But , as I say, that talks of recovered people. So there is somewhat of a leap here , is there not?
Perhaps Ethan could give his view on this?
		
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The piece by PNWoke is about immune memory, and this is the usual form of long term immune response. The body can't keep antibodies gong for every previous infection/vaccination, so after about 6 months, the antibody levels drop and we go to stand-by rather than active alert. This immune memory could last years, we don't yet know.

The argument about infection vs vaccination is that natural infection exposes you to more parts of the virus so you have multiple ways of recognising a virus rather than relying on the spike protein, and this offers a theoretical advantage of greater flexibility to cover different variants. On the other hand, vaccination stimulates a higher antibody response. The combo of natural infection and vaccination therefore theoretically offers stronger immunity because you get the best of both worlds. But the risk of Covid is still substantial, so few recommend this as the preferable way forward. The better way forward remains simple vaccination.

Personally, I am unconvinced of the need for boosters for most people, unless those boosters carried updated code for delta variant.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The piece by PNWoke is about immune memory, and this is the usual form of long term immune response. The body can't keep antibodies gong for every previous infection/vaccination, so after about 6 months, the antibody levels drop and we go to stand-by rather than active alert. This immune memory could last years, we don't yet know.

The argument about infection vs vaccination is that natural infection exposes you to more parts of the virus so you have multiple ways of recognising a virus rather than relying on the spike protein, and this offers a theoretical advantage of greater flexibility to cover different variants. On the other hand, vaccination stimulates a higher antibody response. The combo of natural infection and vaccination therefore theoretically offers stronger immunity because you get the best of both worlds. But the risk of Covid is still substantial, so few recommend this as the preferable way forward. The better way forward remains simple vaccination.

Personally, I am unconvinced of the need for boosters for most people, unless those boosters carried updated code for delta variant.
		
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Very clearly explained, thanks.
Regarding your last paragraph though, ( if I understand this matter correctly), if it is agreed that vaccine plus infection gives strongest immunity, then next strongest is vaccine plus booster, doesn't that put vaccine only as third strongest?
I read you that you think that there isn't a second and a third, just a second?, but clearly other experts think there otherwise.
If you are right, and if there is a downside to having booster jabs, then it matters. However, if there is no downside, is having them like having extra insurance at no extra cost?😀

So, why not, if offered?


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Very clearly explained, thanks.
Regarding your last paragraph though, ( if I understand this matter correctly), if it is agreed that vaccine plus infection gives strongest immunity, then next strongest is vaccine plus booster, doesn't that put vaccine only as third strongest?
I read you that you think that there isn't a second and a third, just a second?, but clearly other experts think there otherwise.
If you are right, and if there is a downside to having booster jabs, then it matters. However, if there is no downside, is having them like having extra insurance at no extra cost?😀

So, why not, if offered?
		
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Well, I said _need_ for boosters. That doesn't mean they do any harm, just may do not do much additional good. 

The strongest advocates for boosters are politicians and pharma companies, FDA, CDC and EMA and plenty of independent experts remain unconvinced. There are a range of incentives at play for boosters. The Govt has bought a ton of vaccines, including Novavax and Valneva, as yet unused, and GSK to come. They also want to be associated with visible activity in dealing with the pandemic, and want to press flu vaccines at the same time. The JCVI advice makes it fairly clear that the evidential basis for the booster is a bit weak, but the Covid/flu combo strategy is a key plank of the policy. So it is unsurprising they are pushing boosters. 

Vaccine plus infection may give strongest immunity, but it also adds risk for short and longer term complications. We don't know where vaccine plus booster sits in the efficacy charts.


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## IanM (Aug 23, 2021)

PN Woke?   No he ain't!!


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2021)

IanM said:



			PN Woke?   No he ain't!!

Click to expand...

Yeah, he is. Tries to deny it, but we can see the truth.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yeah, he is. Tries to deny it, but we can see the truth.
		
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don't be nasty or i will boo hoo!


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## Robster59 (Aug 26, 2021)

I drove down from Glasgow to Worcester yesterday, stopped at a Worcester hotel last night, over to Northampton today and in a Northampton hotel tonight. 
Whilst I appreciate the restrictions have been lifted more in England than in Scotland, there is now hardly anyone wearing a mask in the hotel, clubs, shops, anywhere indoors. 
People just seem to think the issue has gone away overnight, and the PM's hopes that people would be "sensible" seem to have gone totally out of the window.  
We're still exercising full caution, wearing masks, using antibac hand wash but we are VERY MUCH in the minority.  At least in England.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I drove down from Glasgow to Worcester yesterday, stopped at a Worcester hotel last night, over to Northampton today and in a Northampton hotel tonight.
Whilst I appreciate the restrictions have been lifted more in England than in Scotland, there is now hardly anyone wearing a mask in the hotel, clubs, shops, anywhere indoors.
People just seem to think the issue has gone away overnight, and the PM's hopes that people would be "sensible" seem to have gone totally out of the window.
We're still exercising full caution, wearing masks, using antibac hand wash but we are VERY MUCH in the minority.  At least in England.
		
Click to expand...

I live in Worcestershire and find most people wearing masks in shops and in confined areas.  I would prefer it to be mandatory though.


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 27, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I drove down from Glasgow to Worcester yesterday, stopped at a Worcester hotel last night, over to Northampton today and in a Northampton hotel tonight.
Whilst I appreciate the restrictions have been lifted more in England than in Scotland, there is now hardly anyone wearing a mask in the hotel, clubs, shops, anywhere indoors.
People just seem to think the issue has gone away overnight, and the PM's hopes that people would be "sensible" seem to have gone totally out of the window.
We're still exercising full caution, wearing masks, using antibac hand wash but we are VERY MUCH in the minority.  At least in England.
		
Click to expand...

I've noticed a change recently in our area. It seems to have gone from 80/20 in favour of mask wearing among customers, to much closer to 50/50. Even with the staff in our local supermarkets. They still have the signs up asking, or suggesting, that people still wear masks but even amongst their staff it now seems to be close to 50/50 with those wearing masks and those without.


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## Robster59 (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I live in Worcestershire and find most people wearing masks in shops and in confined areas.  I would prefer it to be mandatory though.
		
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I can only comment about our experience last night and it was most definitely less without masks than with.


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## ExRabbit (Aug 27, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've noticed a change recently in our area. It seems to have gone from 80/20 in favour of mask wearing among customers, to much closer to 50/50. Even with the staff in our local supermarkets. They still have the signs up asking, or suggesting, that people still wear masks but even amongst their staff it now seems to be close to 50/50 with those wearing masks and those without.
		
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Pretty much the same where we live.

Whilst on a walk with my wife today, I told her I was definitely not signing up for winter league again this year.

I don't want to risk indoor beers and craic after a rainy and cold day now that infection rates are rising and so many people are acting like it is all over.

I have to think about infecting older members of our family if I catch it.

I'd just be turning up and driving home afterwards most of the time if I did sign up. The craic is what makes it worthwhile for me in the winter.

I'll just play social golf this winter, as and when the weather is nice, until this stuff goes away a little bit more.


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## Hobbit (Aug 27, 2021)

Mask wearing here in our corner of Spain continues at a decent level. This includes outdoors in crowded areas, e.g. the local market.

Jab take up is also running at a high level with many 12 to 16 year olds getting their second jab.

Numbers of infections and hospitalisations continue to fall after the summer blip.

Cautiously confident any winter spike will be relatively small, thanks to the vaccine take up.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 27, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've noticed a change recently in our area. It seems to have gone from 80/20 in favour of mask wearing among customers, to much closer to 50/50. Even with the staff in our local supermarkets. They still have the signs up asking, or suggesting, that people still wear masks but even amongst their staff it now seems to be close to 50/50 with those wearing masks and those without.
		
Click to expand...

I'd very much agree with these numbers around here. The decline in mask wearing is notable. We even had our first 'outraged town Facebook post' from a person who walked into a shop without a mask, not exempt, and took the hump when they were asked to wear one. That post would have been unthinkable just a short while ago.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 27, 2021)

Went into Lidl the other day, there was only me and Missis T with masks on. Daughter came in with kids to look at skool clothes and she mentioned “ oh look at you two with masks on”. What I don’t get is the rates of infection are high in Mansfield. The only people that don’t know are those in a coma. So why don’t the people of Mansfield wears masks to cut down the risk of infection.
The mind boggles.


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## Slime (Aug 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd very much agree with these numbers around here. The decline in mask wearing is notable. We even had our first 'outraged town Facebook post' from a person who walked into a shop without a mask, not exempt, and took the hump when they were asked to wear one. *That post would have been unthinkable just a short while ago.*

Click to expand...

I think it still is!


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## DanFST (Aug 27, 2021)

Maybe, people don't want to spend the rest of their lives wearing masks? 

I always have one on me, but I don't typically wear one if theres enough space for me to keep away from people. I'll wear one getting on a train, but once i'm sat down it's off. If there's a polite sign asking me to, i always will.


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## D-S (Aug 27, 2021)

Interesting that, I believe, mask wearing rules are stricter in Scotland than in England but never the less Scottish numbers are booming; they appear to be flattish in England. 
I am not aware of any logic behind the short term difference in the trajectory of the numbers except that there was a mini spike in England due to some festivals, notably Boardmaster (?) in Cornwall, which is now dropping out of the daily numbers.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 27, 2021)

38,000 infections today.  When will we admit it's getting out of control and bring in some sensible restrictions.  Schools back in a week so we can expect a sharp rise.


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## GreiginFife (Aug 27, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Could be school terms
		
Click to expand...

Plus the return of full football stadiums and other close proximity settings.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 27, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			38,000 infections today.  When will we admit it's getting out of control and bring in some sensible restrictions.  Schools back in a week so we can expect a sharp rise.
		
Click to expand...

Next door neighbours came back from Spain yesterday, it seems mask wearing is at a different level to what it is here. Apart from the Brits on holiday.


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## DanFST (Aug 28, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			38,000 infections today.  When will we admit it's getting out of control and bring in some sensible restrictions.
		
Click to expand...

what would you impose?


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2021)

DanFST said:



			what would you impose?
		
Click to expand...

Reinstate mask wearing in shops and other indoor venues. Extend vaccination to 12-15 year olds right away. Limit attendance at concerts and theatres to vacc'd or tested people. The mistake of so-called freedom Day was to relax too many restrictions all at once. It should have been staged. Apart from anything else, relaxing them all means you can't tell which ones were OK and which caused problems. 

The Govt wanted to maintain masks, SAGE advised them to do so, but their backbenchers wouldn't support that, and they didn't want to have to rely on position support, so it has sod all to do with the science, all to do with that which dare not speak its name.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Reinstate mask wearing in shops and other indoor venues. Extend vaccination to 12-15 year olds right away. Limit attendance at concerts and theatres to vacc'd or tested people. The mistake of so-called freedom Day was to relax too many restrictions all at once. It should have been staged. Apart from anything else, relaxing them all means you can't tell which ones were OK and which caused problems.

*The Govt wanted to maintain masks, SAGE advised them to do so, but their backbenchers wouldn't support that,* and they didn't want to have to rely on position support, so it has sod all to do with the science, all to do with that which dare not speak its name.
		
Click to expand...

What I don’t understand is that all along we have been informed via daily briefings etc that Science and SAGE is advising us re what we can and cannot do. At what point did that stop happening. Personally I think a lot of the time we have followed the SAGE advice when it fitted an agenda. Without getting political 😉


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## D-S (Aug 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Reinstate mask wearing in shops and other indoor venues. Extend vaccination to 12-15 year olds right away. Limit attendance at concerts and theatres to vacc'd or tested people. The mistake of so-called freedom Day was to relax too many restrictions all at once. It should have been staged. Apart from anything else, relaxing them all means you can't tell which ones were OK and which caused problems.
.
		
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Isn’t some of this exactly what the Scottish Government are doing but their cases are going the other way?


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			What I don’t understand is that all along we have been informed via daily briefings etc that Science and SAGE is advising us re what we can and cannot do. At what point did that stop happening. Personally I think a lot of the time we have followed the SAGE advice when it fitted an agenda. Without getting political 😉
		
Click to expand...

"The science" was there to provide cover for decisions, so it was used selectively. I must have missed all the briefings with Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance since Sajid Javid to over. Say what you like about Matt Hancock, but he did appear to have a passing interest in health and wellbeing. Javid still thinks he is some sort of shadow Chancellor. 

SAGE is not independent, most of the major players are Govt employees, so even that advice has, to some extent, taken political issues into account. They would not recommend anything they knew Govt would not do, although they would try to nudge Govt if there was political uncertainly.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2021)

D-S said:



			Isn’t some of this exactly what the Scottish Government are doing but their cases are going the other way?
		
Click to expand...

Is it. OK, then, clearly not enough. Do more.


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## theoneandonly (Aug 28, 2021)

I'm just back from Castleisland,  they have much more restrictions. While mask wearing in shops is still strong,  no one checked my vax status in pubs, the table service rule was ignored and pretty much no one wore a mask when moving about.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2021)

Article about an outbreak in San Fran.


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## drdel (Aug 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			"The science" was there to provide cover for decisions, so it was used selectively. I must have missed all the briefings with Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance since Sajid Javid to over. Say what you like about Matt Hancock, but he did appear to have a passing interest in health and wellbeing. Javid still thinks he is some sort of shadow Chancellor.

SAGE is not independent, most of the major players are Govt employees, so even that advice has, to some extent, taken political issues into account. They would not recommend anything they knew Govt would not do, although they would try to nudge Govt if there was political uncertainly.
		
Click to expand...

Insulting to SAGE professionals and getting political !


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2021)

drdel said:



			Insulting to SAGE professionals and getting political !
		
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It isn't intended to be insulting to SAGE professionals. They are people grounded in the real politik of their jobs. If you are Chris Whitty, whom I like and respect, or Patrick Vallance, a tad less so, you have to make a judgement about what influence you can reasonably bring to bear. Is it worthwhile producing a daring new strategy that you think politicians will reject or the Mail will have a conniption over, or do you think it is better to try for incremental improvements, a sort of nudge approach, to existing policy that the politicians might accept. The reality is that people try the first get ignored or booted out, and people who try the latter do better int he long run.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 28, 2021)

DanFST said:



			what would you impose?
		
Click to expand...

Ethans reply got it right, sensible restrictions that assist to keep infections down.


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## road2ruin (Aug 28, 2021)

Found that where we live (Surrey area) the use of masks is still pretty strong, I’d say that in the supermarket it’s 80/20 in favour of wearers at the moment. 

Down at the folks this weekend and just back from Sainsbury’s and it’s completely different. Barely any staff wearing and that’s matched by most of the customers. Given we’re in Bognor which is largely speaking God’s waiting room it was surprising to see.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 28, 2021)

drdel said:



			Insulting to SAGE professionals and getting political !
		
Click to expand...

It may well be but I asked him a question. I think it was one of those where a honest opinion/ reply could not be said without getting close to non discussion area.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Ethans reply got it right, sensible restrictions that assist to keep infections down.
		
Click to expand...

You and Ethan are clearly not fully accepting the difficulties which would arise if masks were mandatory. It has been said before but doesn't seem to get through.
Mandatory masks were manageable when a number of activities were closed down. Nightclubs, theatres, football stadia etc. People going to shops. etc would not find that impractical or too irksome.
However, pressure built to open up the entertainment industry, and mask wearing wouldn't happen there.
If you think it would, you are being naive or obtuse. How are the police going to uphold the law in those places. Not possible and the Government know it.
Anybody who know how nightclubs work etc knows it.
So, opening up had to be done , thus mandatory masks had to be changed to requesting masks.
If you want no opening up of entertainment industry, say so.- just tell us whether you think they should stay closed ( when all over 18 could - IMO should- be vaxxed and you would have the non vaxxers calling the shots!)

I still wear a mask as before the change. I value their use. But I recognise the impracticable scenarios I have mentioned. You are not doing that.
And that really isn't being fair to the decision makers and the Police who would be in an impossible situation .
I do agree with Ethan that admission to these places where many people gather should be limited to the vaxxed.
Let's start recognising where the problem really lies.
I am frankly fed up of the tail wagging the dog, where the non vaxxed ( the refusers) are contributing immensely to the infection rate, where care home workers think it right to work there not vaxxed, as if all we should worry about is their rights, and not the right of those in care to live a Covid free life as far as is possible.


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2021)

Am finding it tricky to assess where we are & going. The weekends have historically been low number reporting times  - does anyone know when UK last reported over 190 deaths for a weekend?
I know these numbers are way fewer than the really dark times, but also looking to mainland Europe it's seems fairly clear we have a much larger circulation of the virus ongoing.
I've been enjoying a few of the "freedoms" with half an eye on making the most of it before possibly hunkering back down for the dark/wet/cool months.
Finally another sad story, a lad without a father etc. Can never say for sure, but probabilities suggest it could have been avoided 🙁
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-58376709


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## D-S (Aug 29, 2021)

IainP said:



			Am finding it tricky to assess where we are & going. The weekends have historically been low number reporting times  - does anyone know when UK last reported over 190 deaths for a weekend?
I know these numbers are way fewer than the really dark times, but also looking to mainland Europe it's seems fairly clear we have a much larger circulation of the virus ongoing.
I've been enjoying a few of the "freedoms" with half an eye on making the most of it before possibly hunkering back down for the dark/wet/cool months.
Finally another sad story, a lad without a father etc. Can never say for sure, but probabilities suggest it could have been avoided 🙁
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-58376709

Click to expand...

A cursory glance at the numbers shows me that France has had 169 deaths in the past two days and Spain has had 240.


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			A cursory glance at the numbers shows me that France has had 169 deaths in the past two days and Spain has had 240.
		
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Interesting, they've not published those onto worldometer.
A cursory glance confirms there are over 40 countries in Europe.


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## Ethan (Aug 29, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You and Ethan are clearly not fully accepting the difficulties which would arise if masks were mandatory. It has been said before but doesn't seem to get through.
Mandatory masks were manageable when a number of activities were closed down. Nightclubs, theatres, football stadia etc. People going to shops. etc would not find that impractical or too irksome.
However, pressure built to open up the entertainment industry, and mask wearing wouldn't happen there.
If you think it would, you are being naive or obtuse. How are the police going to uphold the law in those places. Not possible and the Government know it.
Anybody who know how nightclubs work etc knows it.
So, opening up had to be done , thus mandatory masks had to be changed to requesting masks.
If you want no opening up of entertainment industry, say so.- just tell us whether you think they should stay closed ( when all over 18 could - IMO should- be vaxxed and you would have the non vaxxers calling the shots!)

I still wear a mask as before the change. I value their use. But I recognise the impracticable scenarios I have mentioned. You are not doing that.
And that really isn't being fair to the decision makers and the Police who would be in an impossible situation .
I do agree with Ethan that admission to these places where many people gather should be limited to the vaxxed.
Let's start recognising where the problem really lies.
I am frankly fed up of the tail wagging the dog, where the non vaxxed ( the refusers) are contributing immensely to the infection rate, where care home workers think it right to work there not vaxxed, as if all we should worry about is their rights, and not the right of those in care to live a Covid free life as far as is possible.
		
Click to expand...

I didn't mention night clubs or entertainment for masks. I realise that masks are a bit of an impediment for youth trying to pull in nightclubs.


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## Tashyboy (Aug 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I didn't mention night clubs or entertainment for masks. I realise that masks are a bit of an impediment for youth trying to pull in nightclubs.
		
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Unless it’s a gimp mask 😉


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## D-S (Aug 29, 2021)

IainP said:



			Interesting, they've not published those onto worldometer.
A cursory glance confirms there are over 40 countries in Europe.
		
Click to expand...

The numbers actually do come from Worldometer, I just picked similar sized countries to the UK.
As I say I just had a quick look rather than going into deaths per million etc.

here are the France numbers:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/

here are the Spanish numbers:-
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
Scroll down to the bottom for daily numbers, as you may well know.


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			The numbers actually do come from Worldometer, I just picked similar sized countries to the UK.
As I say I just had a quick look rather than going into deaths per million etc.

here are the France numbers:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/

here are the Spanish numbers:-
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
Scroll down to the bottom for daily numbers, as you may well know.
		
Click to expand...

France have posted Saturday (74), not Sunday yet. Spain not since Friday, would you agree?
I'd consider Germany & Italy also of similar size, although I didn't refer to size.
Incidentally my comment on Europe wasn't in reference to deaths.


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## D-S (Aug 29, 2021)

All I said was that I had a cursory glance at the numbers for the past two days on worldometer which showed a different story from the comments that mainland Europe might have been in a different state from the Uk. To truly compare numbers in circulation you need to look at number of tests per head of population not just positive tests, I believe we were, I am not sure now, testing far more per head than most mainland European and countries which again renders such statements moot.


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## IainP (Aug 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			All I said was that I had a cursory glance at the numbers for the past two days on worldometer which showed a different story from the comments that mainland Europe might have been in a different state from the Uk. To truly compare numbers in circulation you need to look at number of tests per head of population not just positive tests, I believe we were, I am not sure now, testing far more per head than most mainland European and countries which again renders such statements moot.
		
Click to expand...

I'm still not clear what point you were aiming to make in post 21,145 other than it came across as aiming to belittle me. With inaccurate facts. 
So I suggest we agree to disagree.


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## D-S (Aug 29, 2021)

IainP said:



			I'm still not clear what point you were aiming to make in post 21,145 other than it came across as aiming to belittle me. With inaccurate facts.
So I suggest we agree to disagree.
		
Click to expand...

I had no intention of belittling anyone at all, my apologies if that was the impression. All I was seeking to point out was some context in the numbers. As you say, if we do disagree (which I am not sure we do), let’s at least agree to do that.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You and Ethan are clearly not fully accepting the difficulties which would arise if masks were mandatory. It has been said before but doesn't seem to get through.
Mandatory masks were manageable when a number of activities were closed down. Nightclubs, theatres, football stadia etc. People going to shops. etc would not find that impractical or too irksome.
However, pressure built to open up the entertainment industry, and mask wearing wouldn't happen there.
If you think it would, you are being naive or obtuse. How are the police going to uphold the law in those places. Not possible and the Government know it.
Anybody who know how nightclubs work etc knows it.
So, opening up had to be done , thus mandatory masks had to be changed to requesting masks.
If you want no opening up of entertainment industry, say so.- just tell us whether you think they should stay closed ( when all over 18 could - IMO should- be vaxxed and you would have the non vaxxers calling the shots!)

I still wear a mask as before the change. I value their use. But I recognise the impracticable scenarios I have mentioned. You are not doing that.
And that really isn't being fair to the decision makers and the Police who would be in an impossible situation .
I do agree with Ethan that admission to these places where many people gather should be limited to the vaxxed.
Let's start recognising where the problem really lies.
I am frankly fed up of the tail wagging the dog, where the non vaxxed ( the refusers) are contributing immensely to the infection rate, where care home workers think it right to work there not vaxxed, as if all we should worry about is their rights, and not the right of those in care to live a Covid free life as far as is possible.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't referring to to night clubs, although I think it's still not the right time to open events in closed environments.    I totally agree with you Re: non Vaxers but would prefer us to be maintaining some sensible restrictions rather that what I think is happening now, a head on rush to full lockdown again come the winter.


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## road2ruin (Aug 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			…..a head on rush to full lockdown again come the winter.
		
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Do you really think there will be a full lockdown this winter? If so what was the point of the vaccinations? If there is a full lockdown this winter are we saying that it will be an annual thing then as there will always be another variant on the horizon that reacts to the vaccinations in slightly different way. Surely with the most vulnerable vaccinated and boosters for them on the way we’re now past the point of full lockdowns unless we’re saying that they’re now with us for ever more? This isn’t meant as a dig or anything, just interested in your view.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Do you really think there will be a full lockdown this winter? If so what was the point of the vaccinations? If there is a full lockdown this winter are we saying that it will be an annual thing then as there will always be another variant on the horizon that reacts to the vaccinations in slightly different way. Surely with the most vulnerable vaccinated and boosters for them on the way we’re now past the point of full lockdowns unless we’re saying that they’re now with us for ever more? This isn’t meant as a dig or anything, just interested in your view.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I do think there will be one. Infections are rising again along with hospitalisations and deaths, we know it will get worse in the winter and shortly when schools and Unis go back.   Vaccinations do help to reduce serious illness but it's proportional, they don't stop people getting infected and many becoming very ill along with associated hospitalisations and deaths.   If infections fall along with the associated health problems then I will hold up my hands and say I was wrong.  Time will tell but I would be much happier with mandatory mask wearing in shops, public transport and places where high infection risks are prevalent.


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## road2ruin (Aug 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I do think there will be one. Infections are rising again along with hospitalisations and deaths, we know it will get worse in the winter and shortly when schools and Unis go back.   Vaccinations do help to reduce serious illness but it's proportional, they don't stop people getting infected and many becoming very ill along with associated hospitalisations and deaths.   If infections fall along with the associated health problems then I will hold up my hands and say I was wrong.  Time will tell but I would be much happier with mandatory mask wearing in shops, public transport and places where high infection risks are prevalent.
		
Click to expand...

Assuming there is another full lockdown do you think people will actually listen? Obviously people cannot stop shops etc shutting but whereas in the first lockdowns people did (generally) stop socialising etc I just cannot see it this time round. If you’ve been double jabbed and you have a group of friends who also have are you seriously going to spend winter indoors not seeing people? Personally, I won’t. I can’t stop them closing shops but I would not stop seeing friends and family etc. 

The other question is still, if they lockdown this winter are we saying that this will become a seasonal lockdown? You can’t seriously expect the economy (or at least certain sectors) to survive if they’re told to close (or have significant restrictions) for 4/5 months a year?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Assuming there is another full lockdown do you think people will actually listen? Obviously people cannot stop shops etc shutting but whereas in the first lockdowns people did (generally) stop socialising etc I just cannot see it this time round. If you’ve been double jabbed and you have a group of friends who also have are you seriously going to spend winter indoors not seeing people? Personally, I won’t. I can’t stop them closing shops but I would not stop seeing friends and family etc.

The other question is still, if they lockdown this winter are we saying that this will become a seasonal lockdown? You can’t seriously expect the economy (or at least certain sectors) to survive if they’re told to close (or have significant restrictions) for 4/5 months a year?
		
Click to expand...

What individuals do is up to their own conscience and what they can get away with.  I would say most people would observe restrictions.

I can't forsee the future, new variations of Covid, better vaccinations etc are not in my gift to understand.


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## road2ruin (Aug 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What individuals do is up to their own conscience and what they can get away with.  I would say most people would observe restrictions.

I can't forsee the future, new variations of Covid, better vaccinations etc are not in my gift to understand.
		
Click to expand...

I guess my point is (re vaccinations), the present ones have an efficacy rate of around 90 odd %. If we’re going to enter full lockdown based on the present variant then there’s no hope. 

I disagree that most would observe restrictions, I think with the present vaccination strategy and the success I personally cannot see people being told that they cannot see friends and family for another winter. At this point it’ll come down to personal responsibility, if you have a family member who is deemed vulnerable then you do what you need etc.


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## Ethan (Aug 29, 2021)

I think it is hard to call what will happen. Cases will rise, with schools and colleges back and more indoor stuff as weather declines, so the risk will increase a fair bit. Mask wearing is dropping off fast. But vaccination of 16 and 17 year olds, and presumably 12 to 15 year olds (even with only moderate take-up) will continue to constrain case numbers. I am not convinced about boosters that do not include updates for delta. Cases have been driven by unvaccinated lately, so reducing that risk pool will clearly help. The main wild card is if immunity falls off among the vaccinated. I think the story here is more complicated than presented in the media recently, because the period over which that has been studied has included changes in environmental risk and lockdown too, so a few moving parts.

So the question is how big that rise in cases is, and how well that is tolerated by the Govt. NHS winter pressures are a large factor too. The Govt hate the idea of being seen to reverse course, so will resist any steps, which will, ironically, make matters worse and possibly force greater ultimate action than would have been needed with earlier intervention. Unfortunately because a lot of different measures were all abandoned at the same time, we don't know which ones work better than the others, and there're which limited measures are most effective.

Another wildcard is more variants. If variant epsilon (next after delta) appears and it is a bad'un, resistant to vaccination, all bets are off.


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## Billysboots (Aug 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What individuals do is up to their own conscience and what they can get away with. * I would say most people would observe restrictions.*

I can't forsee the future, new variations of Covid, better vaccinations etc are not in my gift to understand.
		
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I genuinely don’t think that’s the case. Whilst, quite clearly, I cannot speak for all, the consensus amongst those I have discussed this with is that they will not observe any further lockdown, as to do so would make the pain of the periodic restrictions of the last eighteen months, and the whole vaccination program, pointless exercises. In short, they’ve had enough.

That’s not to say that many individuals will not continue to take personal responsibility with measures tailored to their circumstances and those of loved ones. Merely that they won’t follow further lockdowns.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I genuinely don’t think that’s the case. Whilst, quite clearly, I cannot speak for all, the consensus amongst those I have discussed this with is that they will not observe any further lockdown, as to do so would make the pain of the periodic restrictions of the last eighteen months, and the whole vaccination program, pointless exercises. In short, they’ve had enough.

That’s not to say that many individuals will not continue to take personal responsibility with measures tailored to their circumstances and those of loved ones. Merely that they won’t follow further lockdowns.
		
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I have suggested some small to moderate restrictions that make little difference to most people, not total lockdown.  I think if we did this now we just may be able to stop things getting to a point where it could start to become very different to what we are seeing at the moment.    People say things but when it comes to the crunch they often do what they are asked.   You just have to look at what happens in other countries, I had a discussion with my cousin in New Zealand a few days ago, they are in total lockdown again after a small increase in infections, also look at what Hobbit tells us about Spain.  I honestly think the vast majority will do what is asked of them. Your experience in the Police must have shown you that most British people will obey the law.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I do think there will be one. Infections are rising again along with hospitalisations and deaths, we know it will get worse in the winter and shortly when schools and Unis go back.   Vaccinations do help to reduce serious illness but it's proportional, they don't stop people getting infected and many becoming very ill along with associated hospitalisations and deaths.   If infections fall along with the associated health problems then I will hold up my hands and say I was wrong.  Time will tell but I would be much happier with mandatory mask wearing in shops, public transport and places where high infection risks are prevalent.
		
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You and Ethan are cherry picking when you say you didn't intend To refer to nightclubs, theatres etc.
How do you answer those who ask why they should be breaking the law not wearing a mask in a shop when others can crowd into nightclubs and theatres without masks and not be breaking the law.?
The latter venues are by their nature better "breeding grounds" for passing on the virus than any shop.
It is and always has been difficult asking people to abide by the law when there is no enforcement option, but we are now in an age -social media etc-
where it is easy to organise numbers to break the law together We've seen it happen, and in relation to Covid especially.
The real answer is to disadvantage the vaccine refusers.And publicise more the benefits of being vaccinated .


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## D-S (Aug 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I have suggested some small to moderate restrictions that make little difference to most people, not total lockdown.  I think if we did this now we just may be able to stop things getting to a point where it could start to become very different to what we are seeing at the moment.    People say things but when it comes to the crunch they often do what they are asked.   You just have to look at what happens in other countries, I had a discussion with my cousin in New Zealand a few days ago, they are in total lockdown again after a small increase in infections, also look at what Hobbit tells us about Spain.  I honestly think the vast majority will do what is asked of them. Your experience in the Police must have shown you that most British people will obey the law.
		
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I think it is difficult to judge entire countries on anecdotal evidence e.g. what Hobbit says re his part of Spain is undoubtedgy true, nevertheless lthey have recorded 240 deaths in the last two days of reporting, so it seems as if at least some are not being as law abiding as those near Hobbit. If my regular shopping experiences in Waitrose Chipping Sodbury or any of the shops near here are anything to go by, mask wearing in shops in England is nearly 100% - patently this is untrue for the rest of the country. There are more mask wearing strictures in Scotland yet this is not shown in recorded cases. I think we need to simply promote, encourage, nudge, coerce more folk to get jabbed and to keep on pushing the ‘common sense‘ message as more and more guidelines/laws may be counter productive at this stage.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think it is hard to call what will happen. Cases will rise, with schools and colleges back and more indoor stuff as weather declines, so the risk will increase a fair bit. Mask wearing is dropping off fast. But vaccination of 16 and 17 year olds, and presumably 12 to 15 year olds (even with only moderate take-up) will continue to constrain case numbers. I am not convinced about boosters that do not include updates for delta. Cases have been driven by unvaccinated lately, so reducing that risk pool will clearly help. The main wild card is if immunity falls off among the vaccinated. I think the story here is more complicated than presented in the media recently, because the period over which that has been studied has included changes in environmental risk and lockdown too, so a few moving parts.

So the question is how big that rise in cases is, and how well that is tolerated by the Govt. NHS winter pressures are a large factor too. The Govt hate the idea of being seen to reverse course, so will resist any steps, which will, ironically, make matters worse and possibly force greater ultimate action than would have been needed with earlier intervention. Unfortunately because a lot of different measures were all abandoned at the same time, we don't know which ones work better than the others, and there're which limited measures are most effective.

Another wildcard is more variants. If variant epsilon (next after delta) appears and it is a bad'un, resistant to vaccination, all bets are off.
		
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I thought that in past discussions here , and amongst the medical profession , that there was not too big a worry about future variants being able to 'ignore' vaccines!
As for infections, it has also been recognised by science that the double jabbed who also get Covid have a better immunity than the double jabbed alone. 
Not all of course. Some unfortunately get a different result so Im not saying it is a thing to be desired, but the majority come through it seems, and the immunity level is accepted as true.
This  begs the question as to how many of those daily figures re serious illness and death are double jabbed, and how many are unvaccinated.
Those figures are not prominent it seems.
Some say boosters are beneficial. You, Ethan, believe otherwise, which suggests that you think the vaccines are pretty darn good (enough)- but then you express concern re variants🤔

If folks want more official action -Time to get tough re vaccines.


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## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2021)

2nd jab day, at last.

Saw a rare beast on Saturday, probably a first. Someone in the supermarket without a mask on. Arrived at a till with a half full trolley. Refused service. Tried several tills, all refused service.

Ref a couple of comments about what the mask uptake is like here. Lads night out a couple of weeks back. No mask, no entry into bars. Anyone getting up from a table without a mask was soon told to mask up. Barman wouldn’t take an order from someone not wearing a mask. Not 100% compliance but not far off.

Visited Almeria city last week. Pleasantly surprised on the percentage of mask wearers, even outside where there is some relaxation. Clips of Madrid and Barcelona on the news suggest northern Spain is a little more lax.


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## bobmac (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Vaccinations do help to reduce serious illness but it's proportional, they don't stop people getting infected and *many becoming very ill along with associated hospitalisations and deaths.*

Click to expand...

Are there really many double jabbed dying from Covid?
I'd need to see figures on that please, if you have a link?


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## IainP (Aug 30, 2021)

👆 a good question, ought to maybe be easier to find this.  Think PHE did release some data in June and this fella has written some stuff offering interpretations  - often needed with stats 

https://theconversation.com/most-co...ated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/2...ated-this-doesnt-mean-the-vaccines-dont-work/


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## Hobbit (Aug 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Are there really many double jabbed dying from Covid?
I'd need to see figures on that please, if you have a link?
		
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According to Sir Patrick Vallance, 40% of those catching Covid have had at least 1 jab, 15% having had 2. The big difference is the severity.


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I thought that in past discussions here , and amongst the medical profession , that there was not too big a worry about future variants being able to 'ignore' vaccines!
As for infections, it has also been recognised by science that the double jabbed who also get Covid have a better immunity than the double jabbed alone.
Not all of course. Some unfortunately get a different result so Im not saying it is a thing to be desired, but the majority come through it seems, and the immunity level is accepted as true.
This  begs the question as to how many of those daily figures re serious illness and death are double jabbed, and how many are unvaccinated.
Those figures are not prominent it seems.
Some say boosters are beneficial. You, Ethan, believe otherwise, which suggests that you think the vaccines are pretty darn good (enough)- but then you express concern re variants🤔

If folks want more official action -Time to get tough re vaccines.
		
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The variant concern is one not necessarily of enormous likelihood, but of enormous implications, although as the cases rumble on and grow, the likelihood increases. It is true that vax plus infection is better than vax alone, so long as you don't die or suffer permanent damage. 

I believe, although I like to think I rely on data than matters of faith, that vax are very good, but not perfect, and keeping hygiene measures in place until we got better penetration of the population with vax would have been prudent. The evidence for boosters is based partly on antibody fall off, but we know that immune memory kicks in, as it does for other antibodies that also fall off but still confer more or less lifelong immunity, and the other evidence cited, changes in risk 6 months after vax is confounded by external changes in behaviour and exposure, which could explain the change in risk. It is also clear that the Govt want to use boosters to bring more people into for flu vax, fearing a winter pressures double whammy. The word from those who know say that this year the flu vax, never a great product, may be worse than usual. However, if the Covid booster carried an upgrade for delta, I would be at the front of the queue.


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## bobmac (Aug 30, 2021)

I was under the impression that having both jabs protected most people from serious illness, hospitalisation and death.
_ 'It is very rare for someone vaccinated to experience severe illness or die'
https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection_

SR seems to suggest that is now not the case.
This may be down to the vaccine not protecting us from the Delta variant and if that's the case I'd like to know


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I was under the impression that having both jabs protected most people from serious illness, hospitalisation and death.
_ 'It is very rare for someone vaccinated to experience severe illness or die'
https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection_

SR seems to suggest that is now not the case.
This may be down to the vaccine not protecting us from the Delta variant and if that's the case I'd like to know
		
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No, that impression is still correct. The risk of hospitalisation/death is reduced by about 90% compared to unvacc'd. But the risk is not zero, and older people (although not those who can still use a 1-iron, probably, are still vulnerable to admission caused by a reduced strength illness, one that may have ended them if unvac'd. Protection against delta is less than against alpha, but still decent and well worth having.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I was under the impression that having both jabs protected most people from serious illness, hospitalisation and death.
_ 'It is very rare for someone vaccinated to experience severe illness or die'
https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection_

SR seems to suggest that is now not the case.
This may be down to the vaccine not protecting us from the Delta variant and if that's the case I'd like to know
		
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I think you are right - that the vast majority of double jabbed avoid serious illness and death. But like you, I'd like to know the figures.
Not that it proves anything, but a couple of people I know, elderly and in not good health have had Covid recently since being double jabbed.
No hospital etc and both recovered as if a case of flu.
One is joking that he is now more immune than we are😀


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I think you are right - that the vast majority of double jabbed avoid serious illness and death. But like you, I'd like to know the figures.
Not that it proves anything, but a couple of people I know, elderly and in not good health have had Covid recently since being double jabbed.
No hospital etc and both recovered as if a case of flu.
One is joking that he is now more immune than we are😀
		
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It is very possible that had those elderly people not been vac'd, they would have had a much worse course.


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## IanM (Aug 30, 2021)

Out in Chepstow yesterday. Indoors everyone masked, outside mostly not. 

People want to get on with it.   I think the focus is shifting to hospitalisation stats, not infection numbers


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I was under the impression that having both jabs protected most people from serious illness, hospitalisation and death.
_ 'It is very rare for someone vaccinated to experience severe illness or die'
https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/vaccine-efficacy-effectiveness-and-protection_

SR seems to suggest that is now not the case.
This may be down to the vaccine not protecting us from the Delta variant and if that's the case I'd like to know
		
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Did I really suggest that?


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## bobmac (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Did I really suggest that?
		
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Did you not suggest that many were becoming very ill along with associated hospitalisations and deaths?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Did you not suggest that many were becoming very ill along with associated hospitalisations and deaths?
		
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I suggested hospitalisations and deaths had increased with rises in infections and unless we change something it will get worse over the winter.  Do you disagree with that?


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## bobmac (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I suggested hospitalisations and deaths had increased with rises in infections and unless we change something it will get worse over the winter.  Do you disagree with that?
		
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You said vaccinations don't stop people getting infected and *many are becoming very ill along with associated hospitalisations and deaths.
*
The WHO says that it's *very rare* for someone vaccinated to experience severe illness or die.

I asked if the Delta variant had changed things


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is very possible that had those elderly people not been vac'd, they would have had a much worse course.
		
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Undoubtedly,!  Mutual friends were concerned about him when hearing he had caught Covid. His general health is not good.
His wife has said she reckons she would have gone without the jabs.


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Undoubtedly,!  Mutual friends were concerned about him when hearing he had caught Covid. His general health is not good.
His wife has said she reckons she would have gone without the jabs.
		
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A lot of people see any admission of a vaccinated person with Covid as evidence of the uselessness of vaccination. It is a major misunderstanding. The common cold can tip an elderly person over into an admission.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I suggested hospitalisations and deaths had increased with rises in infections and unless we change something it will get worse over the winter.  Do you disagree with that?
		
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The underlying question in these exchanges with Bobmac is if you think the rise in hospitalisations and deaths are  involving to any significant effect those who have been double jabbed. 
IF it does, then yes we have a problem. 
But I think most have the belief that that is not the case. Hence the less concern.
Unless there is something not readily apparent then there is a remedy, and it lies in the hands of the non vaxxed individuals.
The other remedy is another lockdown but many don't see why they should put up with that. Nor do I .
The infection rate is not a serious threat if the vaccines are doing their job, as I believe they are


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The underlying question in these exchanges with Bobmac is if you think the rise in hospitalisations and deaths are  involving to any significant effect those who have been double jabbed.
IF it does, then yes we have a problem.
But I think most have the belief that that is not the case. Hence the less concern.
Unless there is something not readily apparent then there is a remedy, and it lies in the hands of the non vaxxed individuals.
The other remedy is another lockdown but many don't see why they should put up with that. Nor do I .
The infection rate is not a serious threat if the vaccines are doing their job, as I believe they are
		
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I have not suggested we have another lockdown, unless my suggestion of wearing masks on public transport and in shops is considered a lockdown.


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## D-S (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I have not suggested we have another lockdown, unless my suggestion of wearing masks on public transport and in shops is considered a lockdown.
		
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Like they do in Scotland?


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I have not suggested we have another lockdown, unless my suggestion of wearing masks on public transport and in shops is considered a lockdown.
		
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It seems you are avoiding the 'underlying question' I allude to? You express concern ( post. 21178)  in which you make no differentiation between vaxxed and unvaxxed, the impression being that very many vaxxed are in hospital and dying.
And this point is the crux of whether your concern is justified for the reasons I have already given. 
As to what you are asking for, it isn't only mandatory mask wearing. In post 21154 you say" not the right time to open events in closed environments"
So, no theatres, cinemas, nightclubs. Are pubs not closed environments?, 
Church halls? Churches? Etc
Do you not agree that if the infections are not seriously affecting the vaccinated, and the hospitalisations and deaths are almost all those refusing vaccinations, ( Everyone over 18 has been offered the vaccine),then the 45 million or so vaccinated should be allowed some worthwhile freedoms in which they will be mainly safe, and which allow the economy to start to recover?
However, if the figures show that a significantly large number of the hospitalised and dying are reasonably healthy vaccinated people, then your concerns are valid and actions you advocate should be taken.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It seems you are avoiding the 'underlying question' I allude to? You express concern ( post. 21178)  in which you make no differentiation between vaxxed and unvaxxed, the impression being that very many vaxxed are in hospital and dying.
And this point is the crux of whether your concern is justified for the reasons I have already given.
As to what you are asking for, it isn't only mandatory mask wearing. In post 21154 you say" not the right time to open events in closed environments"
So, no theatres, cinemas, nightclubs. Are pubs not closed environments?,
Church halls? Churches? Etc
Do you not agree that if the infections are not seriously affecting the vaccinated, and the hospitalisations and deaths are almost all those refusing vaccinations, ( Everyone over 18 has been offered the vaccine),then the 45 million or so vaccinated should be allowed some worthwhile freedoms in which they will be mainly safe, and which allow the economy to start to recover?
However, if the figures show that a significantly large number of the hospitalised and dying are reasonably healthy vaccinated people, then your concerns are valid and actions you advocate should be taken.
		
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If you have gained the impression I believe there is no difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed then that's wrong.  My point was that hospitalisations and deaths appear proportional to infection rates.  I cannot find imperical data that gives a breakdown on the age or vaccinated status of these people so cannot comment on it.

Regarding nightclubs etc, my opinion is that if they are virus superspreaders then they should be regulated by tests or not allowed.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2021)

D-S said:



			Like they do in Scotland?
		
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Yes. Do you have evidence that wearing masks in Scotland is creating higher infection rates?


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The underlying question in these exchanges with Bobmac is if you think the rise in hospitalisations and deaths are  involving to any significant effect those who have been double jabbed.
*IF it does, then yes we have a problem.*

Click to expand...

No we don't. Imagine we got to the point where 100% of the UK population has been vaccinated. That would mean that 100% of those in hospital or dying had been double jabbed. The vaccines aren't 100% effective (and as far as I know there isn't any vaccine that is) which means that some of those that have received it will still become ill and die. 

93% of people wear a seatbelt when they drive a car. But 66% of people killed in car accidents are wearing a seatbelt. This doesn't mean that seatbelts are ineffective, it means that the 7% of people that don't wear a seatbelt account for 34% of fatalities.


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## ger147 (Aug 31, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes. Do you have evidence that wearing masks in Scotland is creating higher infection rates?
		
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Our rates of infection and hospitalisations are also climbing, presumably due to the fact our schools are back in session and have been for a few weeks now and most other restrictions have now been lifted.


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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2021)

I've spent the last 18 months sat at home alone with no-one to talk to, doing my bit to stop this killer virus from spreading.
I shop every 2 weeks, I keep my 2m apart and I still wear a mask in shops.
I got my 2 vaccinations as soon as I could and I will take the booster when it's available.

What I will NOT do is spend the next 6-8 months stuck inside because some conceited, self opinionated anti vaxers refuse to get the vaccine and keep the number of cases high by spreading the virus and creating new variants which might one day beat the vaccines available.

If you don't want the vaccine then go and live in the US with the rest of the nutters and leave the rest of us to get the country working again.


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## D-S (Aug 31, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes. Do you have evidence that wearing masks in Scotland is creating higher infection rates?
		
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Well it doesn’t seem to be reducing them, unfortunately.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 31, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			No we don't. Imagine we got to the point where 100% of the UK population has been vaccinated. That would mean that 100% of those in hospital or dying had been double jabbed. The vaccines aren't 100% effective (and as far as I know there isn't any vaccine that is) which means that some of those that have received it will still become ill and die. 

93% of people wear a seatbelt when they drive a car. But 66% of people killed in car accidents are wearing a seatbelt. This doesn't mean that seatbelts are ineffective, it means that the 7% of people that don't wear a seatbelt account for 34% of fatalities.
		
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I used the word significant for a reason😁
If there is no difference in the rates of hospitalisations and deaths between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated, then it means the vaccine is not doing it's job as well as we are told it does. It isn't even doing any sort of job if the figures are the same amongst the two groups!
So if the vaccine isn't working, then ,yes, we have a problem!

What I am not saying is that there won't be some who are hospitalised or who die who have been vaccinated . Of course there will.

The figures are high at this time, but I believe the vaccines are working and it is the unvaccinated who make up the big majority of those figures.


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## GreiginFife (Aug 31, 2021)

D-S said:



			Well it doesn’t seem to be reducing them, unfortunately.
		
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As has been pointed out on multiple occasions on this thread, Scottish schools are back in session and this always means a spike in infections (just look at last year when schools and Uni's went back). Lets flip the paradigm, there is no evidence that without masks in other settings that the current figures would be exponentially higher. I think you will witness the same spike in a month or so with or without "masks in certain settings" as long as schools don't form part of those "settings".

Schools returning, along with relaxation of pretty much *all* restrictions (except mask wearing in certain settings) and, for example 50,000+ in Ibrox on Sunday (not many masks on view), and people are surprised that the infection rates are going up? 

For me, the important figures are still relative rates for hospitalisations and deaths. These are climbing but, from what I can see, not at the same rate as infections (with the obvious caveat that there is a delay).


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			As has been pointed out on multiple occasions on this thread, Scottish schools are back in session and this always means a spike in infections (just look at last year when schools and Uni's went back). *Lets flip the paradigm, there is no evidence that without masks in other settings that the current figures would be exponentially higher.* I think you will witness the same spike in a month or so with or without "masks in certain settings" as long as schools don't form part of those "settings".

Schools returning, along with relaxation of pretty much *all* restrictions (except mask wearing in certain settings) and, for example 50,000+ in Ibrox on Sunday (not many masks on view), and people are surprised that the infection rates are going up?

For me, *the important figures are still relative rates for hospitalisations and deaths*. These are climbing but, from what I can see, not at the same rate as infections (with the obvious caveat that there is a delay).
		
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Flipping the paradigm, as you call it, sounds a bit like someone saying 'Prove that particular lung cancer was caused by smoking. They may have got it anyway'. The evidence for masks, direct and epidemiological is more than good enough now.

Hospitalisations and deaths are indeed important,. but community cases in young people fuel those numbers. Stopping a young person getting infected, whether through masks, vaccination or anything else, may stop one of those hospitalisations or deaths too. The link between hospitalisations/deaths and cases is two-fold. There is a time-relationship, with hospitalisations lagging behind cases and deaths lagging behind that, and the proportion of either depends on the risk profile of the population. When lots of older people were unvaccinated the proportion of cases that ended up in hospital was much higher. Now that it is mostly younger cases, and a few breakthroughs, the proportion is a lot lower. There still are a worrying number of young people, and a few US shock-jocks about whom I am much less worried, succumbing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2021)

D-S said:



			Well it doesn’t seem to be reducing them, unfortunately.
		
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Some people, not having a direct pop at anyone on here, seem to have blind faith that masks are the answer to this. They aren't. They may be part of the solution but they are a minimal part from all that I can see and have read. Certainly 99% of the masks we are all wearing, Your point about Scotland is simple but effective. If masks solved everything their numbers would be going down in comparison to England but they are not. Up there, up here. The reduction in mask wearing in England is not the cause of current spikes, mixing and the unvaccinated are the real areas to look at.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Some people, not having a direct pop at anyone on here, seem to have blind faith that masks are the answer to this. They aren't. They may be part of the solution but they are a minimal part from all that I can see and have read. Certainly 99% of the masks we are all wearing, Your point about Scotland is simple but effective. If masks solved everything their numbers would be going down in comparison to England but they are not. Up there, up here. The reduction in mask wearing in England is not the cause of current spikes, mixing and the unvaccinated are the real areas to look at.
		
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I don't believe anyone is saying masks are a saviour to everything, only sensible precaution like social distancing.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 31, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe anyone is saying masks are a saviour to everything, only sensible precaution like social distancing.
		
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The reduction in wearing them does seem to be raised quite frequently as to why numbers in England are increasing. They may play a part but other factors are much greater

I think social distancing has largely gone out of the window from what I can see. The genie is out of the bottle.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2021)

D-S said:



			Well it doesn’t seem to be reducing them, unfortunately.
		
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You have no idea whether it is reducing them or not. Mask wearing is only one element of a hygiene approach.


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## DRW (Aug 31, 2021)

Not sure if people have seen these before(pre vaccine in USA for example) :-



And a recent FT piece :-



The main thing to take is if you are older(clearly other issues add to being higher risk), you should not be leading a normal life pre or post vaccine, unless you are happy to catch this thing and rolling the dice.

I know I have said it before, if you can change one thing(edit on top of vaccine), get to normal weight/fitness, obesity is a bad thing for covid whatever your age on average.

Covid is far to contagious, not to be challenged with it over the coming days/weeks/months/years, depending on how you live your life moving forward.

There is plenty of hospital data out there from other countries split between vaccine status online, have a search if it interests you and whilst vaccines are great, they only reduce the risk for your AGE/underlying conditions profile. The above gives you some idea but note that the above FT details above is population fatality rates not case fatality rates but is great for comparing different ages.

I still think the public health messaging has been poor over the virus, with regards to informing people of the risks with age and weight in particular. Just look at the first chart, its pretty yeek. I am shocked by how some older people are acting in not protecting themselves(understand the you only live once/your days your numbered outlook at well, however).


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## Mudball (Aug 31, 2021)

my niece came around last week and lovingly spread whatever is the latest bug that is going around at nursery.  
HID and me wiped out.  Worryingly all the wrong symptoms...  loss of taste, coughing, cold..  no fever so far.  been a couple of days.  Both are double vaccinated.

yesterday, our lateral flows came negative.  So that is a relief... but who knows.. i am going to crawl under the bed for the rest of the week


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## DRW (Sep 1, 2021)

Interesting study just released:-

Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf (poverty-action.org)

EDIT Twitter link:-

Jason Abaluck (@Jabaluck) / Twitter


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## pauljames87 (Sep 1, 2021)

Mudball said:



			my niece came around last week and lovingly spread whatever is the latest bug that is going around at nursery. 
HID and me wiped out.  Worryingly all the wrong symptoms...  loss of taste, coughing, cold..  no fever so far.  been a couple of days.  Both are double vaccinated.

yesterday, our lateral flows came negative.  So that is a relief... but who knows.. i am going to crawl under the bed for the rest of the week
		
Click to expand...

LFT with symptoms don't work apparently book a PCR test


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2021)

Concerning increases in deaths and hospitalisations today.


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## ExRabbit (Sep 1, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Concerning increases in deaths and hospitalisations today.
		
Click to expand...

I read it was something that might look a little worse than it really is due to catching up after the bank holiday.


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Concerning increases in deaths and hospitalisations today.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know where you get your info from....
Even with the bank holiday lag...
7 day cases DOWN 0.2%
7 day deaths DOWN 0.5%
Hospitalisations DOWN 8% from previous day.


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## IainP (Sep 2, 2021)

To be fair Bob a lot of news sites were reporting what SR posted (as they do), the reality is you are both right, it just depends on which stats are chosen. The 7 day ones you quoted will be more balanced, although you chucked in a one day one in for good measure 😉
This is one that mentioned the BH lag
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-58406184
Daily numbers 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2021)

Finished golf on Tuesday, started to enter scores on IG app and noticed I had a Ping from the Covid app ( yup I still have it turned on). Anyway it said I may have been in contact with someone who is positive.
So yesterday I had the test, results back this morning. Negative.
Now there’s a couple of things that I am pondering.
1, I wear a mask when inside til sat down. Did that help prevent me catching Covid again. One will never know.
2, Missis T has nigh on been my shadow for a week, so why was she not pinged.
3, when I had my test, as I was driving out a kid said to me you have to isolate til you get the results. Yet the NHS app says not. So what is the actual Advice. That said Missis T had me isolating doing DIY.


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Finished golf on Tuesday, started to enter scores on IG app and noticed I had a Ping from the Covid app ( yup I still have it turned on). Anyway it said I may have been in contact with someone who is positive.
So yesterday I had the test, results back this morning. Negative.
Now there’s a couple of things that I am pondering.
1, I wear a mask when inside til sat down. Did that help prevent me catching Covid again. One will never know.
2, Missis T has nigh on been my shadow for a week, so why was she not pinged.
3, when I had my test, as I was driving out a kid said to me you have to isolate til you get the results. Yet the NHS app says not. So what is the actual Advice. That said Missis T had me isolating doing DIY.
		
Click to expand...

I would delete the app if I was you (I never downloaded it at all). Anyway, I thought there was a long waiting time for Ping? Was it the new i59?


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I would delete the app if I was you (I never downloaded it at all). Anyway, I thought there was a long waiting time for Ping? Was it the new i59?
		
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No chance with the pings, it took a month for a Ping weight To be fitted.


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			No chance with the pings, it took a month for a Ping weight To be fitted.
		
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And on the isolation, kids are often right, and this one is technically right that self isolation is required if advised by Track and Trace (isolation after being pinged was never mandatory). But there is an exception for people that are double-vaccinated who do not need to isolate even if a household contact has the lurgy. 

From gov.uk

*When you do not need to self-isolate*
If someone you live with has symptoms of COVID-19, or has tested positive for COVID-19, you will not need to self-isolate if any of the following apply:


you're fully vaccinated – this means 14 days have passed since your final dose of a COVID-19 vaccine given by the NHS
you're under 18 years, 6 months old
you're taking part or have taken part in a COVID-19 vaccine trial
you're not able to get vaccinated for medical reasons


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## Ethan (Sep 2, 2021)

An intersting graphic from Ireland showing vaccination and case rates by county. A pretty decent negative correlation (i.e. more of one leads to less of the other) between the two, apart from those eejits in Laois..


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			And on the isolation, kids are often right, and this one is technically right that self isolation is required if advised by Track and Trace (isolation after being pinged was never mandatory). But there is an exception for people that are double-vaccinated who do not need to isolate even if a household contact has the lurgy.

From gov.uk

*When you do not need to self-isolate*
If someone you live with has symptoms of COVID-19, or has tested positive for COVID-19, you will not need to self-isolate if any of the following apply:


you're fully vaccinated – this means 14 days have passed since your final dose of a COVID-19 vaccine given by the NHS
you're under 18 years, 6 months old
you're taking part or have taken part in a COVID-19 vaccine trial
you're not able to get vaccinated for medical reasons


Click to expand...

 Ave tried to keep up to date re guidelines and I thought I had read that being double jabbed meant no isolation. Me and Missis T read the NHS guidelines yesterday after my test To confirm one way or the other. As it happens the garden and her summer house aka dog kennel is all wood treated after a day or isolation. 
Now am out to go and swear at my driver. 👍


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2021)

IainP said:



			To be fair Bob a lot of news sites were reporting what SR posted (as they do), the reality is you are both right, it just depends on which stats are chosen. The 7 day ones you quoted will be more balanced, although *you chucked in a one day one in for good measure* 😉
		
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As the most recent data on hospitalisations we have is Aug 28, I couldn't give an accurate figure for the last 7 days so I highlighted the FACT that the last 3 days of data we have for hospitalisations the numbers have fallen* from 1020, 949, 916 and 842 and not risen as SR wrote



SocketRocket said:



			Concerning *increases* in deaths and *hospitalisations today*.
		
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I guess my glass is half full.

*https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I don't know where you get your info from....
Even with the bank holiday lag...
7 day cases DOWN 0.2%
7 day deaths DOWN 0.5%
Hospitalisations DOWN 8% from previous day.
		
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I got it from the BBC.  Are they not reliable?  
I didn't say anything about seven day averages, I made it clear it was increased deaths and hospitalisations for the day.


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## Beezerk (Sep 2, 2021)

Nipped into the Metro Centre yesterday after work for some bits and bobs, I'd estimate a maximum of 1% of the people had masks on, mainly young families with kids. Felt a bit of an outcast with my mask on 😷


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## Mudball (Sep 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			LFT with symptoms don't work apparently book a PCR test
		
Click to expand...

I hate you  

symptoms receding.. no fever so far.  lack of taste may have been down to the Mrs being in the kitchen.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 2, 2021)

Mudball said:



			I hate you 

.
		
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Join the club 😁


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I got it from the BBC.  Are they not reliable? 
I didn't say anything about seven day averages, I made it clear it was increased deaths and hospitalisations for the day.
		
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No you didn't.
You said hospitalisations had increased *today*.
Quite impressive as the latest figure was for the 28 Aug and as I pointed out they have  fallen from 1020, 949, 916 to 842.
And even if you did believe everything the BBC print, the number in hospital has risen by 324. How is that an increase from 842?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			No you didn't.
You said hospitalisations had increased *today*.
Quite impressive as the latest figure was for the 28 Aug and as I pointed out they have  fallen from 1020, 949, 916 to 842.
And even if you did believe everything the BBC print, the number in hospital has risen by 324. How is that an increase from 842?
		
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I don't understand what you're getting at. I posted a picture of the BBC's daily Covid report, it shows an increase of hospitalisations and deaths, are they not increases posted on that day?  When the BBC make a daily Covid report should I pm you to make sure you agree with it before I get sucked in by their fake news 🙄


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2021)

I'm done


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm done
		
Click to expand...

👍


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## road2ruin (Sep 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't understand what you're getting at. I posted a picture of the BBC's daily Covid report, it shows an increase of hospitalisations and deaths, are they not increases posted on that day?  When the BBC make a daily Covid report should I pm you to make sure you agree with it before I get sucked in by their fake news 🙄
		
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I don't think daily figures are helpful (in either direction) without the context of what has happened over a period of time beforehand. There are obviously been a rise but if you look at the 7 day average etc it's nothing to get too worried about plus we have the BH lag. Likewise, if today's figures suddenly showed that no one had died and only a dozen had gone into hospital we wouldn't suddenly suggest that it's beaten and we can just forget about it. 

In other news, first day of school (Year 2) today and everyone in the household was very excited. Us because it marks the end of the school holidays and our daughter because she gets to see all of her friends again. No masks required for drop off, no staggered starts involving lots of queuing and all the kids get to eat and play together as the bubbles are not being used.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think daily figures are helpful (in either direction) without the context of what has happened over a period of time beforehand. There are obviously been a rise but if you look at the 7 day average etc it's nothing to get too worried about plus we have the BH lag. Likewise, if today's figures suddenly showed that no one had died and only a dozen had gone into hospital we wouldn't suddenly suggest that it's beaten and we can just forget about it.

In other news, first day of school (Year 2) today and everyone in the household was very excited. Us because it marks the end of the school holidays and our daughter because she gets to see all of her friends again. No masks required for drop off, no staggered starts involving lots of queuing and all the kids get to eat and play together as the bubbles are not being used.
		
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If my neighbours dog kept me awake all night with barking it wouldn't make me feel better if he had been quiet the rest of the week.
I get the point that figures can get distorted over a weekend but the figures were bigger than they have been.


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## IainP (Sep 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			As the most recent data on hospitalisations we have is Aug 28, I couldn't give an accurate figure for the last 7 days so I highlighted the FACT that the last 3 days of data we have for hospitalisations the numbers have fallen* from 1020, 949, 916 and 842 and not risen as SR wrote



*I guess my glass is half full*.

*https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying on hospitalisations Bob.
I do generally welcome your typical "look at the positives" approach 👍

I was really just highlighting that the 'mainstream media' aren't always as diligent as yourself.


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2021)

I guess I just don't understand why people feel the need to be the first to spread bad news even when the information is wrong and as SR is now back on my ignore list, I guess I'll never know.
Suffice to say there are those who have mental issues/depression/loved ones who passed away to Covid and the last thing they need is more bad news, especially when it's wrong.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I guess I just don't understand why people feel the need to be the first to spread bad news even when the information is wrong and as SR is now back on my ignore list, I guess I'll never know.
Suffice to say there are those who have mental issues/depression/loved ones who passed away to Covid and the last thing they need is more bad news, especially when it's wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Don't tell me, tell the BBC, all I did was show and comment on their report.  If you put me on ignore due to my post then quite honestly I don't give a fig.


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Nipped into the Metro Centre yesterday after work for some bits and bobs, I'd estimate a maximum of 1% of the people had masks on, mainly young families with kids. Felt a bit of an outcast with my mask on 😷
		
Click to expand...

Spoke to number 2 daughter yesterday. She works in a school and has had the usual 6 weeks, bar the odd day, off. She’s done a round U.K. trip, visiting various relatives/siblings.

Short version; mask uptake down south = very good. Oop north = appalling.


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## Hobbit (Sep 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I guess I just don't understand why people feel the need to be the first to spread bad news even when the information is wrong and as SR is now back on my ignore list, I guess I'll never know.
Suffice to say there are those who have mental issues/depression/loved ones who passed away to Covid and the last thing they need is more bad news, especially when it's wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Was he the first to spread the news or the first to share it on here? Do you only want good news, or do you want all the news? Would you make a decision on good news only or would you seek a balanced view?

Sticking your head in the sand won’t make the (bad) news go away.


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## GB72 (Sep 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Spoke to number 2 daughter yesterday. She works in a school and has had the usual 6 weeks, bar the odd day, off. She’s done a round U.K. trip, visiting various relatives/siblings.

Short version; mask uptake down south = very good. Oop north = appalling.
		
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Guess it doesn't take a massive leap in deductive reasoning to assume that the areas that have been the covid hotspots throughout the pandemic are likely those with minimal mask wearing now.


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## road2ruin (Sep 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Was he the first to spread the news or the first to share it on here? Do you only want good news, or do you want all the news? Would you make a decision on good news only or would you seek a balanced view?

Sticking your head in the sand won’t make the (bad) news go away.
		
Click to expand...

I think (and forgive me if I'm wrong) the point that Bobmac was making was that the daily figures on their own are pointless whether that be them being well up or well down. You have to take them in context with previous figures over a longer period of time. Whilst those figures look high they're actually down on the same period as last week so you could look at the numbers as good news in that context. Personally I do their that whilst the figures are high they're considerably lower than even the most 'positive' of models being wheeled out when 'Freedom Day' arrived so that's a good thing and we're no where near the 50,000, 100,000 or even 200,000 cases per day that was predicted. 

Obviously figures are likely to increase over the coming months as schools are back and autumn arrives and we seem to be at a point where the vaccination numbers have almost topped out unless they lower the age of vaccination down to the 12-17 level, I don't think we're going to get many more first jabs done with the existing groups as most who want it have already come forward for it so the only way of getting a larger % of the population vaccinated.


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2021)

I thought a "Forum " was an arena for members to freely express their views on what, in their opinion,  matters.

SR  posted what he thought was relevant info from the public domain. Bobmac responded with an alternative info.

Why do we need to get worked up over a debate?


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## D-S (Sep 2, 2021)

Nice to see the proportion of single jabbed over 16 year olds closing in on 90% with the double jabbed nearly 80% and closing fast. At current rates we should be 90% of 16+ by the middle of next month.


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Sticking your head in the sand won’t make the (bad) news go away.
		
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What bad news?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What bad news?
		
Click to expand...

The (bad) news


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## road2ruin (Sep 2, 2021)

Great news today, deaths down by 14% from yesterday and whilst an increase in cases the numbers in hospital drops
	
. A good news day!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Great news today, deaths down by 14% from yesterday and whilst an increase in cases the numbers in hospital drops
	View attachment 38251
. A good news day!
		
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A better news day, I doubt if the 178 and their families thought it was that great.  Any fall in numbers has to be better than an increase though.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 2, 2021)

It is strange that deaths drop and it is better news. Which it is. But a good pal died yesterday of Covid. Always bitter sweet.
I remember earlier this year we only had one death In Mansfield one particular day. It was excellent news for Mansfield . Only that one person was my best mans Father. 
Don’t let yer guard down chaps and chapettes


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## IainP (Sep 2, 2021)

To switch tack a little, does anyone have insights into the situation in Poland or Belgium? (real or guesswork 🙂)

Both had a really tough time in broadly the November to May timeframe, but both seem to be doing well of late. 

Belgium did put a spurt on with vaccinations and I think maybe just ahead if UK now. Poland a bit back.

Anything the UK can learn from them? Is there just less delta going around?


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## Hobbit (Sep 3, 2021)

Headline yesterday; Spain leads the EU in percentage of population double vaccinated @ over 70%.

I got my second jab last Monday. Drive to the local show ground. 3 lines of traffic heading towards a large drive-thru tent. Wind the window down, hand over the invite, get jabbed and drive off.


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## road2ruin (Sep 3, 2021)

JCVI have announced that the vaccines should *not *be given to healthy children aged 12-15yrs, only those with an underlying health condition.


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## road2ruin (Sep 3, 2021)

There was some discussion about the vacc’d vs unvacc’d and the numbers, PHE have released some data which is for the seven days up to 29th August.

9,472 people were admitted to hospital with Covid during that 7 day period.

5,098 were below the age of 50 and 4,374 were aged 50 or over.

Of the 5,098 under-50s……

3,742 (73%) were unvaccinated,

724 (14%) had received one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine,

521 (10%) had received both doses.

Among the 4,374 aged 50 or over……

1,322 (30%) were unvaccinated,

372 (9%) had received one dose of vaccine,

2,651 (61%) had been given their second jab.

In the same time period, a total of 1,798 people who were either confirmed or likely to have had the Delta COVID-19 variant died. Of those deaths, 154 were under the age of 50 and 1,644 were aged 50 or over.

Among the 154 deaths of people under 50……

99 (64%) were unvaccinated,

14 (9%) had received one dose of vaccine,

37 (24%) had received both doses.

And of the 1,644 deaths of people aged 50 or over…..

437 (27%) were unvaccinated,

128 (8%) had received one dose of vaccine,

1,054 (64%) had received both doses.


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2021)

Take the last group (and delete one vax cases for simplicity):

_Of the 1,644 deaths of people aged 50 or over….._

_437 (27%) were unvaccinated,_

_1,054 (64%) had received both doses._

So, approximately 93% of people over age 50 have been double vaccinated. Therefore, 27% of deaths arise in the unvaccinated 7% of the population, and 64% cases in the vaccinated 93%.

So the relative benefit of vaccination is (27/7)/(64/93) = 5.6, so the risk of death is 5.6 times greater for unvaccinated comapred to vaccinated.


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			JCVI have announced that the vaccines should *not *be given to healthy children aged 12-15yrs, only those with an underlying health condition.
		
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I think that is a very weak statement, they wimped out, possibly after a word was put in their ear from above.


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## road2ruin (Sep 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think that is a very weak statement, they wimped out, possibly after a word was put in their ear from above.
		
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I think that ultimately the decision will be made that this age group can be vaccinated. I think that given the marginal gains it won’t hurt but it should be entirely down to the parents and there should be no pressure to get it done etc. As parents you make the decision as to what is best for you own personal circumstances when you get to this sort of imo.


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## road2ruin (Sep 3, 2021)

This has just been leaked, not been confirmed however based on the previous leaks followed by official announcement it sounds plausible….


An announcement to be made to the public this Sunday confirming that vaccination of healthy 12-15 year-olds WILL go ahead. Likely to be a decision made by Chris Whitty and the other CMOs, given the JCVI’s position and the fact that no senior politician wants to take responsibility for it.
The start date for first jabs in arms has been delayed until September 13th, a week longer that originally planned. The end date by which time we are required to have offered a Pfizer jab to all healthy 12-15 year olds remains November 1st. Uptake of 75% is expected, although I think that’s a little high, particularly in light of today’s JCVI announcement. We have had to complete a planning return setting out numbers of schools and vaccinations planned for the week beginning Sept 13th – there’s going to be a big push to maximise the number of vaccinations given in schools during the first week, consent be damned.
All relevant documents including those relating to consent forms, consent process, national protocols, etc. will only be released to NHS Trusts on Monday Sept 6th, the day after the Whitty announcement is expected. It will be interesting to see how they get around the Green Book consent protocols.
There is some consternation within the programme that NHS trusts only found out from the BBC, not the national team leaders, that the top-up third dose (not the booster) for the immunologically suppressed will go ahead from Sept 6th. The booster programme is still planned to start on Sept 20th with priority for care homes and health and social care staff likely to be first.


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This has just been leaked, not been confirmed however based on the previous leaks followed by official announcement it sounds plausible….


An announcement to be made to the public this Sunday confirming that vaccination of healthy 12-15 year-olds WILL go ahead. Likely to be a decision made by Chris Whitty and the other CMOs, given the JCVI’s position and the fact that no senior politician wants to take responsibility for it.
The start date for first jabs in arms has been delayed until September 13th, a week longer that originally planned. The end date by which time we are required to have offered a Pfizer jab to all healthy 12-15 year olds remains November 1st. Uptake of 75% is expected, although I think that’s a little high, particularly in light of today’s JCVI announcement. We have had to complete a planning return setting out numbers of schools and vaccinations planned for the week beginning Sept 13th – there’s going to be a big push to maximise the number of vaccinations given in schools during the first week, consent be damned.
All relevant documents including those relating to consent forms, consent process, national protocols, etc. will only be released to NHS Trusts on Monday Sept 6th, the day after the Whitty announcement is expected. It will be interesting to see how they get around the Green Book consent protocols.
There is some consternation within the programme that NHS trusts only found out from the BBC, not the national team leaders, that the top-up third dose (not the booster) for the immunologically suppressed will go ahead from Sept 6th. The booster programme is still planned to start on Sept 20th with priority for care homes and health and social care staff likely to be first.


Click to expand...

This is the right decision, but a pitiful way of making it. The JCVI totally wimped out, even saying they were not taking education or societal issues into account. That is a pathetic excuse. Even setting that aisde, their decision based on health grounds alone is different from a number of highly credible bodies in other countries. I suspect Govt wanted to push this decision out to the CMOs and the whole thing has been orchestrated.


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## larmen (Sep 3, 2021)

Haven’t the Americans vaccinated kids for a little while now? There must be some learning about effectiveness and complications based in that.


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2021)

larmen said:



			Haven’t the Americans vaccinated kids for a little while now? There must be some learning about effectiveness and complications based in that.
		
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The risk to kids from Covid is low, but not zero, and deaths, inflammatory complications and long Covid have occurred. The risks of the vax are very low. There has been much made of myocarditis as a complication of vaccination, but it has been a transient and mild complication and very very few bad outcomes. Kids transmit Covid, so are part of the herd immunity issue, and we already vaccinate kids for the benefit of others and not themselves, a good example being boys getting HPV vaccine.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Take the last group (and delete one vax cases for simplicity):

_Of the 1,644 deaths of people aged 50 or over….._

_437 (27%) were unvaccinated,_

_1,054 (64%) had received both doses._

So, approximately 93% of people over age 50 have been double vaccinated. Therefore, 27% of deaths arise in the unvaccinated 7% of the population, and 64% cases in the vaccinated 93%.

So the relative benefit of vaccination is (27/7)/(64/93) = 5.6, so the risk of death is 5.6 times greater for unvaccinated comapred to vaccinated.
		
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Not a direct response to your post but a question for you @Ethan. I saw this quote earlier today (when I clicked on the trending on Twitter).....

"Based on scientific trials from around the world, experts say that COVID-19 vaccines that have reported results have shown to be close to 100% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths. This includes vaccines with lower efficacy rates, which reflects how well the vaccine works in a controlled setting, and does not account for a vaccine's ability to prevent serious illness."

Looking at the figures above, 64% of those that died of Covid had received both doses of the vaccine so how can the vaccine be "close to 100% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths" when so many who are vaccinated are still dying of Covid? Or maybe this should be a question aimed at statisticians rather than a qualified doctor. I accept that some who have been double jabbed are still going to die of Covid as the vaccine is less than 100% effective, but can't get my head around the suggestion of it being close to 100% effective against death. 

I'm by no means a Covid denier or anti-vaxxer as I've followed all the rules to date and am double jabbed myself I just can't work out how they have reached the conclusion they have.


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## bobmac (Sep 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm by no means a Covid denier or anti-vaxxer as I've followed all the rules to date and am double jabbed myself I just can't work out how they have reached the conclusion they have.
		
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Did they have any other health issues perhaps?


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## IainP (Sep 4, 2021)

@ColchesterFC  agree it seems an odd quote without more context. Re your statisticians comment, this guy may be worth a read if missed it before :
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/coronavirus-how-is-it-has-it-affected-you.104530/post-2394622


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is the right decision, but a pitiful way of making it. The JCVI totally wimped out, even saying they were not taking education or societal issues into account. That is a pathetic excuse. Even setting that aisde, their decision based on health grounds alone is different from a number of highly credible bodies in other countries. I suspect Govt wanted to push this decision out to the CMOs and the whole thing has been orchestrated.
		
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Seems to me that the JCVI recommended not to vaccinate ( which you disagree with on health grounds , in that you have in past pointed out vaccinated people spread the virus less.)
 BTW - I agree they should be vaccinated.

But the government rejected that advice and will have the vaccinations go ahead.
But you don't want it as simple as that. Can't have the government doing something you think is right ?.
Hence the conspiracy theory😀😀


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## larmen (Sep 4, 2021)

IainP said:



@ColchesterFC  agree it seems an odd quote without more context. Re your statisticians comment, this guy may be worth a read if missed it before :
https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/coronavirus-how-is-it-has-it-affected-you.104530/post-2394622

Click to expand...

Health numbers while logical are often very counter intuitive.

The weirdest one I have seen was a test that is 95% accurate on a really rare illness, on a positive result it’s still more likely to be a false positive than a right one. Makes no sense, 95% should be good, but the math adds up.


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## Ethan (Sep 4, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not a direct response to your post but a question for you @Ethan. I saw this quote earlier today (when I clicked on the trending on Twitter).....

"Based on scientific trials from around the world, experts say that COVID-19 vaccines that have reported results have shown to be close to 100% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths. This includes vaccines with lower efficacy rates, which reflects how well the vaccine works in a controlled setting, and does not account for a vaccine's ability to prevent serious illness."

Looking at the figures above, 64% of those that died of Covid had received both doses of the vaccine so how can the vaccine be "close to 100% effective at preventing hospitalizations and deaths" when so many who are vaccinated are still dying of Covid? Or maybe this should be a question aimed at statisticians rather than a qualified doctor. I accept that some who have been double jabbed are still going to die of Covid as the vaccine is less than 100% effective, but can't get my head around the suggestion of it being close to 100% effective against death.

I'm by no means a Covid denier or anti-vaxxer as I've followed all the rules to date and am double jabbed myself I just can't work out how they have reached the conclusion they have.
		
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We would need to know a lot more about the data. How many of the vax were at least 2 weeks ago, whether Covid was considered to be the cause of death or an element of a more complicated death picture. Also, some vax'd people change their behaviour after vax, thinking they are invulnerable.


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## Ethan (Sep 4, 2021)

larmen said:



			Health numbers while logical are often very counter intuitive.

The weirdest one I have seen was a test that is 95% accurate on a really rare illness, on a positive result it’s still more likely to be a false positive than a right one. Makes no sense, 95% should be good, but the math adds up.
		
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It is all to do with prevalence. A small percentage of a very big number may be larger than a large percentage of a small number. If 1% of a population of 1,000,000 has Covid, then there are 10,000 cases. A Covid test which will detect 95% of true positives and 95% of true negatives will correctly identify 9,500 cases, miss 500 cases, misidentify 49,500 as cases, but correctly identify 940,500 as not having Covid. So the false positive cases are 5 times the true positive, and if you have a positive test, you are, on average, much more likely not to have Covid than have it. 

If 30% of the population has Covid, then of the 300,000 cases, the test will correctly identify 28,500, miss 1,500, misidentify 35,000 as cases and correctly identify 665,000 as not having Covid. Still more false positives than true positives.

The problem arises because there is trade off between true positive detection (sensitivity) and true negative detection (specificity), so tests need to have a focus - the identification of true cases or the reliable confirmation of negativity.


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## Ethan (Sep 4, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Seems to me that the JCVI recommended not to vaccinate ( which you disagree with on health grounds , in that you have in past pointed out vaccinated people spread the virus less.)
BTW - I agree they should be vaccinated.

But the government rejected that advice and will have the vaccinations go ahead.
But you don't want it as simple as that. Can't have the government doing something you think is right ?.
Hence the conspiracy theory😀😀
		
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Not a conspiracy theory at all.

The terms of reference for the JCVI are as follows:

_To advise UK health departments on immunisations for the prevention of infections and/or disease following due consideration of the evidence *on the burden of disease*, on vaccine safety and efficacy and on *the impact and cost effectiveness of immunisation strategies*. To consider and *identify factors for the successful and effective implementation of immunisation strategies*. To identify important knowledge gaps relating to immunisations or immunisation programmes where further research and/or surveillance should be considered._

and further:

_In order to assess whether a national NHS-provided vaccination programme can be considered cost effective (or not), JCVI uses the methodology and criteria of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE). Using the NICE approach, a vaccination programme can be considered to be cost effective if the health benefits (both the direct health benefits to those vaccinated *and the indirect health benefits to the unvaccinated population*) are greater than the opportunity costs measured in terms of the health benefits associated with programmes that may be displaced to fund the new vaccination programme. In other words, *the general consequences for the wider group of patients in the NHS are considered alongside the effects for those patients who may directly benefit from the vaccination programme of interest.*_

Those extracts from the documents available on Gov.uk make it clear that the remit of the JCVI is a broad one, and the advice they have routinely offered has been broad, including the benefit to others (i.e. through effects on transmission). In 2017, the JCVI recommended extension of HPV vaccination to adolescent boys. The main effect of this is to prevent later transmission to female sexual partners, and carries negligible benefit to adolescent boys, so to now consider Covid vaccination to precisely the same age group and restrict the consideration to the personal benefit-risk is completely inconsistent, especially when the evidence for effectiveness and immediate short-term impact of Covid vaccination is so much stronger. There has not been an example in recent years where the issues have been so much focussed on transmission and wide societal effects, yet the JCVI suddenly decides to take a narrow view based only on the personal benefit-risk to the recipient. And lo and behold, the Govt then calls on the CMOs to consider it and within hours, press briefings begin that the CMOs will overturn this advice and roll out all the materials already prepared as soon as this week. It seems pretty obvious that the Govt wants this, but doesn't want to own it, as they would if their committee made the decision or of they over turned that advice, but the advice now comes from the CMOs, thus putting it one step further away from Govt.

You can believe what you want. I have worked in the NHS administrative structure and if you don't think this sort of scenario is entirely possible, you are mistaken. It happened at the start of this pandemic when Vallance was rolled out as the main voice behind the herd immunity strategy.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 4, 2021)

Some positive news from the various trial events

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...-remain-cautious-in-crowds-and-get-vaccinated


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## DanFST (Sep 4, 2021)

At risk of rocking the boat, had my first PCR test this week.

1) I can 100% see where the £37bn is going for 2 years, incredibly efficient with lots of friendly and helpful staff working every day. Fantastic effort from all involved.

2) Vaccination works, well at least for me I think it did. I got covid before lockdown 1 and was convinced I was going to die. I would lay on my back for hours, then be moved onto my front often passing out from not being anle to breathe in the process. This time after double vaccination, every symptom was the same but 50% as bad. resulting in a very uncomfortable couple of days, but nothing like last time.


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## Ethan (Sep 4, 2021)

DanFST said:



			At risk of rocking the boat, had my first PCR test this week.

1) I can 100% see where the £37bn is going for 2 years, incredibly efficient with lots of friendly and helpful staff working every day. Fantastic effort from all involved.

2) Vaccination works, well at least for me I think it did. I got covid before lockdown 1 and was convinced I was going to die. I would lay on my back for hours, then be moved onto my front often passing out from not being anle to breathe in the process. This time after double vaccination, every symptom was the same but 50% as bad. resulting in a very uncomfortable couple of days, but nothing like last time.
		
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I strongly agree with 2, but not 1. I am glad you had a smooth process, as you should have, but that offers little insight into how that budget is allocated or spent. Testing and contact tracing could have been done better and at a fraction of the cost using existing resources and drafting in other NHS and PHE staff to support. Most of the tricky cases were done by them anyway.


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## DanFST (Sep 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I strongly agree with 2, but not 1. I am glad you had a smooth process, as you should have, but that offers little insight into how that budget is allocated or spent. Testing and contact tracing could have been done better and at a fraction of the cost using existing resources and drafting in other NHS and PHE staff to support. Most of the tricky cases were done by them anyway.
		
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I fail to see how NHS and PHE staff could do a "better" job at traffic management, security and admin of handing out and collecting samples, than all the guys and girls that were there today being paid £10 an hour. Nor why they should be used in that capacity, or where even the numbers would come from.


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## Ethan (Sep 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I fail to see how NHS and PHE staff could do a "better" job at traffic management, security and admin of handing out and collecting samples, than all the guys and girls that were there today being paid £10 an hour. Nor why they should be used in that capacity, or where even the numbers would come from.
		
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The track and trace system is a bit more complex than the bit you saw. That is the easy bit. The hard bit is having a system that accurately identifies cases, and efficiently identifies contacts and persuades them to isolate or get tested. The latter but was abysmal and could, and should have been done by PHE and NHS. PHE and NHS staff already provide local contact tracing for outbreaks of a range of conditions, and in this past pandemic, they handled most of the tricky cases.

As for how to staff it, there were a lot of PHE and NHS staff whose usual jobs were suspended due to Covid, but who had the skills needed. There were also loads of doctors and nurses happy to volunteer for various tasks from testing to vaccination, and willing to do so without pay, but we weren't called - it seems the private companies preferred untrained people at £10 an hour.


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## Swinglowandslow (Sep 5, 2021)

Ethan, you are saying, are you not
 " and if you have a positive test, you are, on average, much more likely not to have Covid than have it. "

Frankly, I think that is statistics baffling common sense. 
It takes a situation where someone  gets some symptoms before they then go for a test.(usually). Let's say it comes back positive. 
He is treated as having Covid. He isolates, etc  
If it walks like a duck, quacks.....etc

I can only imagine you are talking about everyone taking a test, with or without symptoms?
Even so,
How many of us here who took a test which came back positive would consider themselves likely not to have Covid.?


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## Ethan (Sep 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Ethan, you are saying, are you not
" and if you have a positive test, you are, on average, much more likely not to have Covid than have it. "

Frankly, I think that is statistics baffling common sense.
It takes a situation where someone  gets some symptoms before they then go for a test.(usually). Let's say it comes back positive.
He is treated as having Covid. He isolates, etc 
If it walks like a duck, quacks.....etc

I can only imagine you are talking about everyone taking a test, with or without symptoms?
Even so,
How many of us here who took a test which came back positive would consider themselves likely not to have Covid.?
		
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Well, it comes down to this issue of a low probability in a large population versus a high probability in a small population. Screening tests are always balanced between the risk of missing true cases and the risk of falsely identifying people as being cases. In this case, the tests err on the side of accepting that you will falsely identify people as being cases but that is preferable to missing true cases. 

Exactly the same issues apply to treat screening, for example. A lot of women are identified by mammography as having a suspicious lesion when they don't have ideas, and further testing is needed to sort it out, causing distress and sometimes injury as the tests become more invasive. It is inherent in all screening. 

On the numbers, it all depends on the prevalence in the local population, whether you are testing 'for cause' or routine screening and the precise setting of the test, but in general, in low prevalence circumstances there is a high chance that a positive test in a random person is inaccurate. so lots of people who self isolated, and their families or bubbles, probably did so unnecessarily. This is amplified by the track and trace and NHS Covid apps, which then use these positive tests in people who may not be cases to demand others self isolate. 

I am not in favour of widespread testing except using highly sensitive research grade testing for epidemiological studies, and testing people with symptoms or a high chance of being infected, i.e close contacts of known symptomatic cases. I have not been tested once for Covid and never downloaded the NHS Covid app. Testing is being used as a means of reassuring the public. The Govt have never released figures for the test positive rate within subgroups, those tested for symptoms, those routinely screened for work or college, epidemiological surveys. Without that breakdown, the testing data is just a big, but pretty meaningless, number.


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## DRW (Sep 9, 2021)

Some new stats on this PHE release(link below and a couple of charts) :-

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 36 (publishing.service.gov.uk)


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2021)

DRW said:



			Some new stats on this PHE release(link below and a couple of charts) :-

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 36 (publishing.service.gov.uk)
View attachment 38354
View attachment 38355

Click to expand...

Very encouraging figures showing just how good the vaccines are at reducing the risk of death. For the 80+ age group 545 cases in the unvaccinated with 155 deaths so 1 in 3.5 of those cases led to death. For the vaccinated 10087 cases and 928 deaths so 1 in 11 of those cases leading to a death. For the 70-79 age group 910 cases and 129 deaths in unvaccinated or 1 in 7, 22270 cases and 428 deaths in vaccinated, or 1 in 52.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 9, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Very encouraging figures showing just how good the vaccines are at reducing the risk of death. For the 80+ age group 545 cases in the unvaccinated with 155 deaths so 1 in 3.5 of those cases led to death. For the vaccinated 10087 cases and 928 deaths so 1 in 11 of those cases leading to a death. For the 70-79 age group 910 cases and 129 deaths in unvaccinated or 1 in 7, 22270 cases and 428 deaths in vaccinated, or 1 in 52.
		
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Having looked at the stats for the younger age groups the effect of the vaccine is still equally impressive. For those unvaccinated in the 30-39 age group 33986 cases and 31 deaths (1 in 1096). For those vaccinated 43004 cases and 8 deaths (1 in 5375). In the unvaccinated 40-49 age group 15106 cases and 54 deaths (1 in 279). For the vaccinated 67349 cases and 27 deaths (1 in 2494).


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## Ethan (Sep 9, 2021)

This is a post from an ITU Consultant currently treating Covid patients posted on a medical website. This is a speech you don't want to be on the wrong end of.

_Hello, I'm Dr X, I'm the ITU consultant looking after you today.  _

_You've been really brave with this mask and you've done really well.  I gather turning on your front was uncomfortable, but it did raise your oxygen levels for a while.  I'm afraid it seems to have stopped working now.  _

_You're on the highest pressure and the most oxygen we can give through this tight mask, so I think I have to be honest and say the only option left is to pop you off to sleep and put you on a ventilator.  Yes, I know you've heard that they kill people but that's not true, it's that very severely ill people sometimes don't survive.  You'll let us do it then?_

_You're just holding on right now and you could need the ventilator quite suddenly at any moment.  It's really important you speak to your children and your partner, because you won't be able to for quite a while.  No, it could be weeks.  I will do everything I can to prevent that but there is a chance you might not wake up again, but I promise you'll never be on your own and we'll speak to your family as much as we can.  You should make sure your other half knows how to access everything like bills and things like that because you won't be able to.  We'll wake you up as soon as we can but it will take a long time to get over this, many months._

_We're giving you everything we can but these things you've heard about don't work.  I won't hold any treatments back that I know do good.  Some of these things do harm, so we don't use them.  Yes, I can talk to your kids and explain.  No, they can't visit, this isn't a safe place for children and there are other patients with Covid here.  There's nothing to be gained punishing yourself about the vaccine now, that has happened and we are where we are._

_I know you saw someone in the next bed go on a ventilator, and you're right, they did pass away this morning.  I'm sorry, but they had some medical problems you don't, so please don't think it has to be the same for you._

_I promise we'll look after you, either me or one of my colleagues will be here every day and every night._

_Move to next bed space. Repeat._


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## williamalex1 (Sep 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is a post from an ITU Consultant currently treating Covid patients posted on a medical website. This is a speech you don't want to be on the wrong end of.

_Hello, I'm Dr X, I'm the ITU consultant looking after you today.  _

_You've been really brave with this mask and you've done really well.  I gather turning on your front was uncomfortable, but it did raise your oxygen levels for a while.  I'm afraid it seems to have stopped working now.  _

_You're on the highest pressure and the most oxygen we can give through this tight mask, so I think I have to be honest and say the only option left is to pop you off to sleep and put you on a ventilator.  Yes, I know you've heard that they kill people but that's not true, it's that very severely ill people sometimes don't survive.  You'll let us do it then?_

_You're just holding on right now and you could need the ventilator quite suddenly at any moment.  It's really important you speak to your children and your partner, because you won't be able to for quite a while.  No, it could be weeks.  I will do everything I can to prevent that but there is a chance you might not wake up again, but I promise you'll never be on your own and we'll speak to your family as much as we can.  You should make sure your other half knows how to access everything like bills and things like that because you won't be able to.  We'll wake you up as soon as we can but it will take a long time to get over this, many months._

_We're giving you everything we can but these things you've heard about don't work.  I won't hold any treatments back that I know do good.  Some of these things do harm, so we don't use them.  Yes, I can talk to your kids and explain.  No, they can't visit, this isn't a safe place for children and there are other patients with Covid here.  There's nothing to be gained punishing yourself about the vaccine now, that has happened and we are where we are._

_I know you saw someone in the next bed go on a ventilator, and you're right, they did pass away this morning.  I'm sorry, but they had some medical problems you don't, so please don't think it has to be the same for you._

_I promise we'll look after you, either me or one of my colleagues will be here every day and every night._

_Move to next bed space. Repeat._

Click to expand...

How can I copy and save this, just this 1 post, to share to all of my anti vax [ ex ] friends ??


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 10, 2021)

Some on here may say foolish but we have booked a holiday to Spain. it is quiet where we are going hopefully but what a challenge. Filled in the form for entry into Spain but have to wait until,48 hours before departure to complete. Try to find somebody to carry out Antigen test whilst abroad before return. Finally the PCR test on day 2 upon return. We now find after we have done the test we have to take it a round trip of around 100 miles or a Motorway service station to drop it of.

Will not be doing this but if we do not send the test who will know but it must be difficult to monitor? Also I was told the “post box” at The service Station is usually full..
2. we have paid our money with Rndox. The 2 tests are numbered sequentially. What is to stop people if they go away again to add say 1000 numbers on.

It all seems “hit and miss” to me which is disappointing


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## bobmac (Sep 11, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Some on here may say foolish 

It all seems “hit and miss” to me which is disappointing
		
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You won't get me near a plane for at least a year


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## harpo_72 (Sep 11, 2021)

Looks like it’s kicked off at the school, kids with siblings in different classes is causing the spreading. 
Not so happy with how it’s being handled and some parents not really taking the care required.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You won't get me near a plane for at least a year
		
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Will you catch a bus anywhere?


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## bobmac (Sep 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Will you catch a bus anywhere?
		
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Not on your nelly


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2021)

Not sure what benefits repealing the Coronavirus Act will have for us, and not sure if at same time scrapping vaccine passports for nightclubs, due to come in vey soon,  is on the cards when just a day or so ago the culture sec was saying they might need to be extended beyond nightclubs…

I’m sure the grown ups know what’s what and why, but I’m currently not sure and a bit confused - especially given current transmission rates.  I guess hospitalisation and death numbers must be considered to be at acceptable levels.

Note to all who can either read my mind, or read what is in the white space between the words and lines, there is no implied or actual criticism, neither for nor against, what I am hearing may come to pass.  I’m just seeking clarification.


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## chrisd (Sep 12, 2021)

We've cancelled a trip to Cyprus due in a couple of weeks. Luckily they changed our flight to an earlier time and therefore we got a full refund 👍


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 13, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Looks like it’s kicked off at the school, kids with siblings in different classes is causing the spreading.
Not so happy with how it’s being handled and some parents not really taking the care required.
		
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My daughters a teacher , just in her class she has sent 12 kids home .
Two positive cases .
She is now anxious about bringing it home again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 13, 2021)

A positive case within the daughters reception class - no doubt it’s going to go through the schools again


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## harpo_72 (Sep 13, 2021)

Yes several cases now, but it’s also got a 5 day gestation period… going to be a tough one. We have lateral flow test, boy is or has been good and had his test, will do it regularly.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 13, 2021)

clubchamp98 said:



			My daughters a teacher , just in her class she has sent 12 kids home .
Two positive cases .
She is now anxious about bringing it home again.
		
Click to expand...

Took the grand sproggs to school today, the first time since the new school year started. There were 3 adults with masks on. Me and Missis T and one other woman. Me thinks schools could be a Covid time bomb.

That said, our local paper has said how busy A and E is in our area. I already knew that with my lad going last week. People are turning up with coughs and flu. A woman turned up and wanted her false nails removing. 
Mansfield has a 94% increase in the last 4 weeks. My lad spent Saturday night with his pal. His Missis is in an induced coma, they have 2 kids. 6 weeks ago She told him she didn’t love him anymore. 2 weeks later she is in Hospital with Covid. Saturday he was told they have done everything they can and to prepare for the worst. She is heavily overweight with underlying health problems. She and he have not had any vaccines.


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## BrianM (Sep 13, 2021)

Just got the news my son has tested positive (10 years old)
Rest of us are negative, but PCR tests getting done tomorrow.
Just a bloody nightmare this now.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 15, 2021)

Just seen we may go to plan ” B ‘ if the NHS is under pressure😳  trust me when my lad was in hospital last week, it’s under pressure already. Plan B it is then.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 15, 2021)

I'm certainly worried about flu season this year. I've got my first proper cold in around 18 months and it's completely floored me. Was in bed all day yesterday and looking the same today. Trying to do anything just wipes me out and I have to sit down. I assume it's because I've not been exposed to anything due to masks and social distancing that my immune system wasn't ready for this bug to get through.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 15, 2021)

Great headline from our Mayor, lauding the people of my home town Morpeth. 'We're very sensible' . He could be a headline write for a red top 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...covid-jabs-england?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

In essence we can go around hugging each other with abandon, but check for outsiders


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 15, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm certainly worried about flu season this year. I've got my first proper cold in around 18 months and it's completely floored me. Was in bed all day yesterday and looking the same today. Trying to do anything just wipes me out and I have to sit down. I assume it's because I've not been exposed to anything due to masks and social distancing that my immune system wasn't ready for this bug to get through.
		
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Man Flu is a nightmare.
Take it easy.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 15, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You won't get me near a plane for at least a year
		
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Well Bob Ryanair were extremely good. Face masks on all the way on the flight,  no standing in corridors waiting for the loo. helped that the plane was less than 50% full.

The downside was ‘ kids’ around 30 not wearing masks on the bus from the plane to the terminal. Totally irresponsible


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 17, 2021)

Younger Colch jnr has been off school all week with a cough. School won't let him back without a negative PCR test. Took him yesterday and had one myself as I've also got a cough. We're waiting for the results to come back, hopefully later today. The question I've got is, as we've got symptoms should we be isolating until the results come back? As it happens neither of us has left the house since Monday, apart from the test yesterday, but I need to go shopping today. Under the rules do I have to wait until I get a negative result before I go out?


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## Ethan (Sep 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Younger Colch jnr has been off school all week with a cough. School won't let him back without a negative PCR test. Took him yesterday and had one myself as I've also got a cough. We're waiting for the results to come back, hopefully later today. The question I've got is, as we've got symptoms should we be isolating until the results come back? As it happens neither of us has left the house since Monday, apart from the test yesterday, but I need to go shopping today. Under the rules do I have to wait until I get a negative result before I go out?
		
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Yes, you should self-isolate until you get a negative test result.


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## williamalex1 (Sep 17, 2021)

A musician friend caught Covid, while playing at a small but very busy venue . Fortunately he has been double jabbed, he's now isolating and only has mild symptoms so far.
BTW I refused to go to the gig because the venue was so small PHEW !!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 17, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, you should self-isolate until you get a negative test result.
		
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Thanks Ethan. That gets me out of shopping. Mrs Colch will have to go and do it.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Thanks Ethan. That gets me out of shopping. Mrs Colch will have to go and do it.
		
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Shouldn’t she self isolate or have got tested?


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## road2ruin (Sep 17, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Shouldn’t she self isolate or have got tested?
		
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Not if she's double vaxxed (plus 14 days).

Basically you only self isolate if you have symptoms or have tested positive. On the basis that you are double vaxxed, if someone else in your household has symptoms or even if they're positive you can carry on with your normal life.


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## Tashyboy (Sep 17, 2021)

so the holiday industry kinda gets a boost but not til October the 4th re PCR test. Why wait over 2 weeks When it is already stated they are an expensive waste of time. The mind still boggles.


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## drdel (Sep 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Not if she's double vaxxed (plus 14 days).

Basically you only self isolate if you have symptoms or have tested positive. On the basis that you are double vaxxed, if someone else in your household has symptoms or even if they're positive you can carry on with your normal life.
		
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Just because you 'can' doesn't mean you should.


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## road2ruin (Sep 17, 2021)

drdel said:



			Just because you 'can' doesn't mean you should.
		
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It was in answer to the present rules. You don’t have to self isolate if you are double vaxxed. That is the point of being vaccinated, got to be some advantages.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2021)

I’m confused about the dropping of the PCR test for travellers, with reliance being placed upon the LF test. 

My understanding is that LF testing provides a useful indicator of the level of infection in a population based upon a statistically significant sample size taken from that population - but that it is unreliable as a test for infection in a single individual.  For an accurate test for the presence of the virus you have to take a PCR test.

Have I got that all wrong.


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m confused about the dropping of the PCR test for travellers, with reliance being placed upon the LF test.

My understanding is that LF testing provides a useful indicator of the level of infection in a population based upon a statistically significant sample size taken from that population - but that it is unreliable as a test for infection in a single individual.  For an accurate test for the presence of the virus you have to take a PCR test.

Have I got that all wrong.
		
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Nope, you aren't wrong. LFTs are quick, convenient and cheap. People who do not have the lurgy are very unlikely to test positive, but people who do have the infection, especially if quite recent and viral levels are low, may not test positive. So you don't unnecessarily impose restrictions on people who don't need them, but you miss doing so on some people who do need them. That is not a major concern for epidemiological prevalence studies, not so great for testing people 'for cause', whether due to symptoms or high risk exposure. 

The LFT is therefore the 'do something because we can't be seen to do nothing' test, whereas the PCR is the 'we really want to play this safe' test. 

It is all driven by the travel industry lobbying to remove obstacles to people travelling, not based on a desire for accurate test results. I get this. Our family loves their overseas holiday and my boys are at ages where it is a great experience for them. We went away in summer 2019, but not 2020 or 2021, and that is a long time for a 11 or 13 year old. We would have loved to go somewhere this year but decided it just wasn't work the risk of getting stuck somewhere due to an outbreak or change in regulations. So I get it, but it could be a rather short-sighted strategy, and the unavoidable assumption must be that The Man is prepared to tolerate a certain level of endemic virus if it takes some of the business pressure off. The problem is it is rather hard to know what level of endemic virus you are going to get.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 18, 2021)

Are any of the issues with the lateral flow tests due to them not being taken correctly? For example not inserting the swab far enough up the nose or not leaving it in the liquid for long enough before testing it? I guess I'm asking if user error plays a part in the results being less accurate.


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## Ethan (Sep 18, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Are any of the issues with the lateral flow tests due to them not being taken correctly? For example not inserting the swab far enough up the nose or not leaving it in the liquid for long enough before testing it? I guess I'm asking if user error plays a part in the results being less accurate.
		
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Bad technique certainly doesn't help. The LFT sacrifices precision for convenience. 

A PCR test detects genetic material (RNA) associated with the virus. That is very sensitive, but can pick up "dead" virus too. The LFT test doesn't detect genetic material but looks for antigens, proteins associated with the virus that the immune system responds to. You need a certain level of protein to trigger a positive LFT, so lower levels with an early infection may test negative. The LFT tests could be set to reduce the number of false negatives, people who have the virus but test negative, but that would increase, perhaps dramatically, the number of false positives, because most people don't have the virus, even a small percentage increase in false positives is a lot of people who 99% are true negatives.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 18, 2021)

Anyone else watch the film Help, about a Covid breach in a Liverpool care home.
Tough watch for anyone with relatives in a care home.
My mother passed away in a care home just over a year ago.
Thankfully they had no Covid cases and apart from spending nearly all her time in her room was very well looked after.

My MIL is also in a care home that has had no Covid cases.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 18, 2021)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone else watch the film Help, about a Covid breach in a Liverpool care home.
Tough watch for anyone with relatives in a care home.
My mother passed away in a care home just over a year ago.
Thankfully they had no Covid cases and apart from spending nearly all her time in her room was very well looked after.

My MIL is also in a care home that has had no Covid cases.
		
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Yes and found it a really good, if, as you say, tough watch. How much was fact and how much fiction I can't say but I can imagine it would have been terrifying for any care home that had an outbreak.


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## road2ruin (Sep 19, 2021)

I appreciate that this is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things but a concern for me was that Covid had ruined one of my highlights when staying at a hotel…..the buffet breakfast!! Over the last 12 months the traditional buffet has been replaced with placing your order and having it brought to your table. However, I am pleased to report that this weekend domestic management and I celebrated our 10th wedding anniversary and decided to get a hotel in London and have some child free time. This morning I was greeted by the spectacular sight of the silver domes of the buffet breakfast and we were free to go up and choose our breakfasts. My excitement hit fever pitch as I took my 3rd hash brown without feeling embarrassed when placing that order with the waiter and not feeling that I should balance my sausage and bacon mountain with any vegetables. A small win but one I am happy with!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 19, 2021)

@road2ruin I feel this should go in 'Gladden the Heart' 😄.

I'm also a huge fan of a buffet breakfast and used to stay at a hotel in Harrogate that offered one. It was always a highlight of the stay, the range and quality was very good. My in laws stayed there once on my recommendation and afterwards I asked my FiL if he enjoyed the breakfast. 'No, there was far too much on my plate', came the reply. 'Was it not a buffet, you serve yourself?', I replied. 'Yes' he came back with, poker faced .


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## IainP (Sep 22, 2021)

Not quite the thread topic, but a little related - had a message today that the booked flu jab appointments were cancelled due to delays. Mum had similar note a couple of weeks ago.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 22, 2021)

Chatting to a work colleague a couple of days ago, he was telling me that he had to leave work early to pick his kids up as he has them while his ex gets over a dose of covid. Get in to work today and find out he is giving me a lift to where I'm due to meet a coach. He's coughing a lung up the whole way. I asked if he's ok, his reply 'oh yeah its not covid definetely not'. I'm fuming tonight as I reckon its 100% covid but he won't get tested. Thinking I should say something to the boss tomorrow, don't want to be a snitch, but...


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Chatting to a work colleague a couple of days ago, he was telling me that he had to leave work early to pick his kids up as he has them while his ex gets over a dose of covid. Get in to work today and find out he is giving me a lift to where I'm due to meet a coach. He's coughing a lung up the whole way. I asked if he's ok, his reply 'oh yeah its not covid definetely not'. I'm fuming tonight as I reckon its 100% covid but he won't get tested. Thinking I should say something to the boss tomorrow, don't want to be a snitch, but...
		
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It's not being a snitch, it's being socially responsible. It's keeping people safe, alive, not being a spreader. Speak to your boss, no question. (Let's hope it's something else but just in case........)


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## Tashyboy (Sep 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Chatting to a work colleague a couple of days ago, he was telling me that he had to leave work early to pick his kids up as he has them while his ex gets over a dose of covid. Get in to work today and find out he is giving me a lift to where I'm due to meet a coach. He's coughing a lung up the whole way. I asked if he's ok, his reply 'oh yeah its not covid definetely not'. I'm fuming tonight as I reckon its 100% covid but he won't get tested. Thinking I should say something to the boss tomorrow, don't want to be a snitch, but...
		
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If you don’t, and it spreads through the office and your boss find outs. You will on for a grade one bollockin. 
Ok it may be if and but. But if I had gone to both my parents and I n law’s Christmas Day. They would of caught COVID off us which we did not know we were carrying.


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## bobmac (Sep 23, 2021)

Has your work colleague been vaccinated?


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## SaintHacker (Sep 23, 2021)

No idea but words have been had, its up to then management now I've done my bit


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## bobmac (Sep 23, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			No idea but words have been had, its up to then management now I've done my bit
		
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I hope they do something. This isn't just a bug going round.


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## SaintHacker (Sep 24, 2021)

Something a bit more positive from the media for a change

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-wi...spring-next-year-leading-experts-say-12414928


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Something a bit more positive from the media for a change

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-wi...spring-next-year-leading-experts-say-12414928

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The people commenting are not really epidemiologists or infectious disease experts, but it seems reasonable to say it _could_ all settle down in a year or so. On the other hand, it may not. I think I said much the same here months ago.

Covid is different from the common cold, which is caused by a bunch of different viruses including some coronaviruses, in that as well as causing an initial respiratory illness, it can cause a severe systemic inflammatory condition rather like sepsis. This is what kills most people who die from Covid.

With flu, over years, people have acquired a layered immunity through multiple exposure to wild viruses and, in some cases, vaccines, and that immune response is now quite elaborate for most people, not so much for older people whose immune response is not as good. So the immune system has "seen" quite a few variations of flu, and has figured out enough to recognise most new variations. We have not yet reached the same place with Covid, but in time will get there. A combination of vaccination, perhaps boosters, and exposure (hopefully asymptomatic or mild) to wild virus will add to the immune systems ability to respond flexibly. As with flu, every now and again, a variant will come along which beats the immune system.


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## garyinderry (Sep 24, 2021)

Tested positive on Sunday. Only really have a sore head and lost a lot of my sense of smell and taste. If this is as bad as it gets for me I'll he happy enough. 

A guy who I work with tested positive and I went for a test 2 days after his result. Sure enough, positive.


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## BrianM (Sep 24, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			Tested positive on Sunday. Only really have a sore head and lost a lot of my sense of smell and taste. If this is as bad as it gets for me I'll he happy enough.

A guy who I work with tested positive and I went for a test 2 days after his result. Sure enough, positive.
		
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Get well soon Gary, it’s not pleasant when it affects you.


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## garyinderry (Sep 24, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Get well soon Gary, it’s not pleasant when it affects you.
		
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Golf on all weekend.  Things could be worse.


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## Italian outcast (Sep 26, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			Golf on all weekend.  Things could be *worse*. 

Click to expand...

This aged well 
Joking aside - hope it goes well for you


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 26, 2021)

Strangely comforting that in Scotland we are having to wear a mask in all indoor settings, and to see pretty solid compliance places we have been, as similarly getting asked to register presence for T&T by scanning QR code or writing name and phone number.  Disturbingly easy to forget to wear a mask even although we still wear masks in most, but not all and not always, indoor settings at home, and no need to register for T&T.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 29, 2021)

Guy I worked with Sunday and Monday just tested positive for covid (lft)

Just done a lft at My desk negative

PCR booked for the drive home just incase


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## pauljames87 (Sep 29, 2021)

Must say they have really got this testing right 

Booked drive through appointment 

Picked test myself 

In and out in 10 mins zero contact with anyone. They dropped test on passenger seat and called them for what to do

Then dropped test in a box afters 

As I have no symptoms and was because of close contact and I'm double jabbed I carry on as normal until I hear otherwise


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## pauljames87 (Sep 29, 2021)

One relief is my colleague came back negative for a PCR so really I could have waited and not tested but no harm


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## Old Skier (Sep 29, 2021)

IainP said:



			Not quite the thread topic, but a little related - had a message today that the booked flu jab appointments were cancelled due to delays. Mum had similar note a couple of weeks ago.
		
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Our surgery isn’t giving flu jabs until your due your booster which puts us well behind other surgery’s in the area, think I’ll have mine through the chemists.

We do however have stacks of fuel and no queues


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## chrisd (Sep 30, 2021)

I downloaded the newest book on the virus, only released yesterday "What really happened in Wuhan". It followed release of a documentary made in Australia by Sky (I believe) 

I can't believe, having only got to events around January 2020, the lies of the Chinese authorities and the fact that they have been allowed to get away with the cover ups and misdirections, scot free, it would seem.


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## Robster59 (Sep 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Strangely comforting that in Scotland we are having to wear a mask in all indoor settings, and to see pretty solid compliance places we have been, as similarly getting asked to register presence for T&T by scanning QR code or writing name and phone number.  Disturbingly easy to forget to wear a mask even although we still wear masks in most, but not all and not always, indoor settings at home, and no need to register for T&T.
		
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That was what shocked me when we travelled from Scotland to England.  People in England were so much more lackadaisical about Covid.  Masks not being worn in bars, hotels, shops.  Social distancing not being observed, much less sanitising.  It really was quite shocking to us.


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## Robster59 (Sep 30, 2021)

The idiot who is the ex-husband of my stepsons partner took their kids on holiday to Benidorm.  He did it just as the kids returned from summer holidays, so they missed a week from their new school which they had just moved to.  Now they've come back they've all tested positive for Covid! .
My Stepson works with teenagers from broken homes, his partner works with special needs kids and also has her own health issues.  
Her ex's reaction?  "It's not my fault!"  
When will people realise that Covid is not going anywhere?


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## Robster59 (Sep 30, 2021)

I don't know what it is like elsewhere in the country, but in Scotland now it seems that more and more of those going into hospital are the young and unvaccinated.  
Those who believe the Social Media, or think that nothing will happen to them because they're young.  But they're wrong................
Covid in Scotland: Latest ICU patients 'largely unvaccinated and young'


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## Slime (Sep 30, 2021)

I was at Sainsbury's this morning for my mum's weekly shop.
I'd say about 90% were wearing masks and those that weren't were mostly the young and the fat!


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## Beedee (Sep 30, 2021)

Three recent shopping experiences in Cheltenham and adjoining village.  Village Tesco - probably about 80% masks.  Big Tesco in town - probably about 40% masks.  Town centre shops - about 20% masks.  I felt quite self-conscious wearing mine in the shops in town.


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## Imurg (Sep 30, 2021)

Our Tesco is about 50:50...possibly more on the non wearing side....


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## D-S (Sep 30, 2021)

Our local Tesco is about 80/20 with the majority wearing masks, Waitrose is about 95/5 but the clientele is older. Local shops 80/20. Coffee shops, golf clubs and pubs less than 20% wearing masks.


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## Golfmmad (Oct 6, 2021)

I see on the news this evening that daily infection rates have increased to over 39000. Although death rates are relatively low still.
Both my Grandaughters have tested positive for covid as have most of their friends from school and their football team.
I expect its similar at most schools nationwide and the reason for higher rates. Although both Grandaughters are not seriously ill, just headaches and sore throats.
Am I over reacting thinking that this is not going away?


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## IainP (Oct 6, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			I see on the news this evening that daily infection rates have increased to over 39000. Although death rates are relatively low still.
Both my Grandaughters have tested positive for covid as have most of their friends from school and their football team.
I expect its similar at most schools nationwide and the reason for higher rates. Although both Grandaughters are not seriously ill, just headaches and sore throats.
Am I over reacting thinking that this is not going away?
		
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Genuinely curious  - what led you to think it was going to go away?

Think currently the country is generally accepting the position and cracking on. Unknown whether that continues as is, once into winter.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 6, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			I see on the news this evening that daily infection rates have increased to over 39000. Although death rates are relatively low still.
Both my Grandaughters have tested positive for covid as have most of their friends from school and their football team.
I expect its similar at most schools nationwide and the reason for higher rates. Although both Grandaughters are not seriously ill, just headaches and sore throats.
Am I over reacting thinking that this is not going away?
		
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It's never going away. What made you think it was?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 6, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I don't know what it is like elsewhere in the country, but in Scotland now it seems that more and more of those going into hospital are the young and unvaccinated.
Those who believe the Social Media, or think that nothing will happen to them because they're young.  But they're wrong................
Covid in Scotland: Latest ICU patients 'largely unvaccinated and young'

Click to expand...

This is what my wife has heard from a local major hospital.  Of 29 covid-19 cases currently being managed in hospital, only ALL of them are unvaccinated 🤔


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## Golfmmad (Oct 6, 2021)

IainP said:



			Genuinely curious  - what led you to think it was going to go away?

Think currently the country is generally accepting the position and cracking on. Unknown whether that continues as is, once into winter.
		
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Sorry, I suppose the question should have been, is it ever going to be manageable as in seasonal flu, measles and mumps etc.?


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## Golfmmad (Oct 6, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			It's never going away. What made you think it was?
		
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As my reply to IanP.


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## Golfmmad (Oct 6, 2021)

A question for Ethan.
My Grandaughters re tested tonight and the 2nd line is stronger, meaning the virus is breeding inside her. This sounds worrying-is it cause for concern?


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## bobmac (Oct 9, 2021)

''Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds''
Good news hopefully

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...kely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 9, 2021)

I'm away this weekend, staying next to Powfoot GC if anyone knows the area. Anyway I'm walking my dog this morning and get chatting to a guy who works here. All very pleasant, we then get joined by a grizzled local walking his dog. We were talking about the holiday park being affected by covid, jabs etc. The old guy pipes up 'my lad won't get jabbed. He has covid right now, struggles to breathe '. We ask if he has been jabbed, 'no, I don't need it'. The other guy just looked me, no words were needed 😳

They walk amongst us, they really do.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 9, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'm away this weekend, staying next to Powfoot GC if anyone knows the area. Anyway I'm walking my dog this morning and get chatting to a guy who works here. All very pleasant, we then get joined by a grizzled local walking his dog. We were talking about the holiday park being affected by covid, jabs etc. The old guy pipes up 'my lad won't get jabbed. He has covid right now, struggles to breathe '. We ask if he has been jabbed, 'no, I don't need it'. The other guy just looked me, no words were needed 😳

*They walk amongst us, they really do.*

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He was the fastest sperm, I wonder how thick the second fastest was 🤔


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2021)

Covid: The UK is Europe's virus hotspot - does it matter? - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58849024


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Covid: The UK is Europe's virus hotspot - does it matter? - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58849024

Click to expand...

Well we should certainly ask why; then understand why, and then ask what-if it continues.  Because unless we know the answers to these questions we won’t be able to formulate mitigations and then decide what we might choose to do now (if anything) and in the future in addition to what we are already doing. But I guess we all know this.

I‘ll add.  For me it feels worrying, but tbh I don’t know if my concerns are well founded or just fears given the dreadful experience of the last 18months.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Covid: The UK is Europe's virus hotspot - does it matter? - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58849024

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The figures are meaningless unless the number of tests being carried out is also noted. That article makes no mention of the number of tests being carried out by each country. For example, if we're doing 50k tests a day and getting 10k positives then we're at the same level as a country doing 10k tests a day and getting 2k positives. Yes, the numbers look much worse for us with 5 times the amount of positive results but unless you know the number of tests being carried out you can't compare the figures. To paraphrase Trump, if you reduce the number of tests being done then you reduce the number of positive results.


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2021)

Not sure how the media can claims like they do when they have no idea on the criteria used by each country.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure how the media can claims like they do when they have no idea on the criteria used by each country.
		
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Surely number of infections and deaths is a given criteria.  I accept that if testing is not uniform across countries then it's not possible to draw comparisons. Is testing lower in other European countries though?


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## Hobbit (Oct 9, 2021)

Valencia region drops all restrictions. Any region that gets below 50 infections per 100,000 can drop all restrictions.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 9, 2021)

Got  appointment for my Covid booster and Flu jab on October 21st,  7.15 pm


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely number of infections and deaths is a given criteria.  I accept that if testing is not uniform across countries then it's not possible to draw comparisons. Is testing lower in other European countries though?
		
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Not sure how anyone knows how many infections there are only how many reported infections and that can only be based on how many tests are being done https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109066/coronavirus-testing-in-europe-by-country/

As to deaths due to Covid, that number can’t even be agreed on in the UK.


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## Slime (Oct 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure how the media can claims like they do when they have no idea on the criteria used by each country.
		
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It's the BBC, they seem to do just what they want!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 9, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Got  appointment for my Covid booster and Flu jab on October 21st,  7.15 pm
		
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They say you need them a week apart? That's what my wife's grandad was told anyways 

I've got about a week until I can book my booster and got flu jab booked for November


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## Old Skier (Oct 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They say you need them a week apart? That's what my wife's grandad was told anyways

I've got about a week until I can book my booster and got flu jab booked for November
		
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Our surgery doing both together, was also on the news this morning saying that there was no issues doing both together.


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## Billysboots (Oct 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They say you need them a week apart? That's what my wife's grandad was told anyways

I've got about a week until I can book my booster and got flu jab booked for November
		
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They can be done together.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 9, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			They say you need them a week apart? That's what my wife's grandad was told anyways

I've got about a week until I can book my booster and got flu jab booked for November
		
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Our letter says, if you are eligible, you may also be offered a COVID-19 booster vaccine at this appointment.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Our surgery doing both together, was also on the news this morning saying that there was no issues doing both together.
		
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Might be just his age then, he is in his 90s


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 9, 2021)

There's lots to be critical about over the last 18 months, which of course we can't do as it gets political, but there are also successes with how things are working. One of the players in my older boy's football team tested positive after training this week. Got a message from the coach for all players to get LFT tests. We were away in the caravan so I went to the nearest pharmacy and picked some up. Tested him Friday and again this morning with both being negative. He's got a cough and the school won't let him back without a negative PCR result. 17-40 this evening I went online and booked at our closest walkthrough site for 18-00. Arrived and was told that they advise everyone to get tested if one family member has symptoms. So myself and my younger boy also got tested and we were all back home again by 18-25. Fantastic service.


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## chellie (Oct 9, 2021)

Had flu jab today but no mention of booster.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 9, 2021)

chellie said:



			Had flu jab today but no mention of booster.
		
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We had our flu jabs last week and were told booster jabs wouldn’t be offered until around 6 months after 2 covid jab, which for us is mid Nov.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2021)

Getting concerned that, even in previously well-abiding Surrey-Hants borders and even in the local Waitrose, the level of mask wearing seems to be falling off the cliff, just as we read of infections increasing across the country and we hear that the 17yr old son of close friends is quite poorly with covid.


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## chellie (Oct 9, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			We had our flu jabs last week and were told booster jabs wouldn’t be offered until around 6 months after 2 covid jab, which for us is mid Nov.
		
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Ah, my six months is in a few days.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			There's lots to be critical about over the last 18 months, which of course we can't do as it gets political, but there are also successes with how things are working. One of the players in my older boy's football team tested positive after training this week. Got a message from the coach for all players to get LFT tests. We were away in the caravan so I went to the nearest pharmacy and picked some up. Tested him Friday and again this morning with both being negative. He's got a cough and the school won't let him back without a negative PCR result. 17-40 this evening I went online and booked at our closest walkthrough site for 18-00. Arrived and was told that they advise everyone to get tested if one family member has symptoms. So myself and my younger boy also got tested and we were all back home again by 18-25. Fantastic service.
		
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Text message at 8-51 this morning to say that my PCR test is negative. Still waiting on results for the boys but less than 15 hours between getting the test and getting the result is pretty good.


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## jim8flog (Oct 10, 2021)

Just found out my DIL's father ( double jabbed)  who was taken in to hospital last week has taken a turn for the worse.

On a personal note now we are in cooler conditions I have taken to putting the charcoal filters back in to my masks as an added layer of protection.


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## IanM (Oct 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure how the media can claims like they do when they have no idea on the criteria used by each country.
		
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The primary concern is little to do with covid


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Text message at 8-51 this morning to say that my PCR test is negative. Still waiting on results for the boys but less than 15 hours between getting the test and getting the result is pretty good.
		
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Messages at 2-17 this afternoon with negative results for both the boys so all in all a very good service. I guess myself and the older boy have got a cough and cold which you might remember as being allowed pre-covid.


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## jim8flog (Oct 10, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Messages at 2-17 this afternoon with negative results for both the boys so all in all a very good service. I guess myself and the older boy have got a cough and cold which you might remember as being allowed pre-covid.
		
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 not beside me

Just remember coughs and sneezels cause diseasels or if you are a reader of Thomas diesels


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## BiMGuy (Oct 10, 2021)

Wife and boy both had positive LF results yesterday. Me and the daughter were negative. 

The infected have cold like symptoms, but are otherwise ok. 

The next 10 days are going to be a pain juggling work, school runs and football.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 10, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Wife and boy both had positive LF results yesterday. Me and the daughter were negative.

The infected have cold like symptoms, but are otherwise ok.

The next 10 days are going to be a pain juggling work, school runs and football.
		
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See what a PCR test says? All of you

Lft don't seem worth the plastic their made from 

Guy at work got postive lft and then tested negative on a PCR


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			See what a PCR test says? All of you

Lft don't seem worth the plastic their made from

*Guy at work got postive lft and then tested negative on a PCR*

Click to expand...

That's quite unusual. Normally if you get a positive LFT then the PCR test will confirm it. I think it's 98%+ that a positive LFT will be followed with a positive PCR. A negative LFT is a lot less definite that you don't have it and is much more often followed by a positive PCR test.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 10, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's quite unusual. Normally if you get a positive LFT then the PCR test will confirm it. I think it's 98%+ that a positive LFT will be followed with a positive PCR. A negative LFT is a lot less definite that you don't have it and is much more often followed by a positive PCR test.
		
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Seen a few people post doing 10 tests in a row all with various results on the same day 

Plus can fake a postive with a bit of lemon juice was it?

It's better to be safe and just get a PCR and see what's actually going on


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Seen a few people post doing 10 tests in a row all with various results on the same day

Plus can fake a postive with a bit of lemon juice was it?

It's better to be safe and just get a PCR and see what's actually going on
		
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Plus "user error" meaning that LFT tests won't ever be as accurate as they could be. Not swabbing the correct area for long enough, not putting the swab far enough up the nose or not leaving it in the liquid for long enough before doing the test. All of these things can lead to a false negative.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 10, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			See what a PCR test says? All of you

Lft don't seem worth the plastic their made from

Guy at work got postive lft and then tested negative on a PCR
		
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I meant PCR test. They were both positive on both tests.


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## 4LEX (Oct 10, 2021)

LFT rarely give falses positives.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Getting concerned that, even in previously well-abiding Surrey-Hants borders and even in the local Waitrose, the level of mask wearing seems to be falling off the cliff, just as we read of infections increasing across the country and we hear that the 17yr old son of close friends is quite poorly with covid.
		
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I'd agree with this. I'm still wearing one when going to the shops, but I'm definetely in the minority now. Also the amout of people wearing them on the coaches is going right down, despite the safety message we play clearly asking people to wear them, although interestingly on th heathrow pick ups most people still wear one, I guess as thet've just come off a plane where they've been told they must.


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## GB72 (Oct 11, 2021)

My experience has varied from place to place. Local supermarkets are about 70:30 in favour of mask wearing but I was draged to Ikea yesterday and I would say less than 10% were wearing masks. 

What does not help, I suspect, is that the media has all but stopped reporting covid news, be it good or bad, and it has pretty much disappeared of social media. Without those reminders, it is easier to get complacent.


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## Billysboots (Oct 12, 2021)

Having discussed the issue of mask wearing at length with those who sit both sides of the argument, I can see why some are now erring on the side of not wearing them.

A comment I often hear is that masks are not designed to protect the wearer, but others. If those others can’t be bothered to wear masks, then there seems little point in anyone continuing to wear them.

And I have to admit now that, if I enter a room or public place where there is minimal mask wearing then, whilst I have used one since the beginning of the pandemic, I am becoming less inclined to continue with it everywhere.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Having discussed the issue of mask wearing at length with those who sit both sides of the argument, I can see why some are now erring on the side of not wearing them.

A comment I often hear is that masks are not designed to protect the wearer, but others. If those others can’t be bothered to wear masks, then there seems little point in anyone continuing to wear them.

And I have to admit now that, if I enter a room or public place where there is minimal mask wearing then, whilst I have used one since the beginning of the pandemic, I am becoming less inclined to continue with it everywhere.
		
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Not sure why you are ‘erring’ on one side or the other.  For a wearer there is no downside to wearing a mask, at least that I am aware of, while we know that there is an ‘upside’ for others.  That some choose to not wear a mask indoors does not cancel out the upside that my wearing one offers. 

I continue to wear a mask in most indoor settings (except when seated) though I have to ask myself why I did not wear a mask indoors last week on the meets - indeed it was noticeable that none of us did.  I guess I did not want to be the only one wearing one…


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## Crow (Oct 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure why you are ‘erring’ on one side or the other.  For a wearer there is no downside to wearing a mask, at least that I am aware of, while we know that there is an ‘upside’ for others.  That some choose to not wear a mask indoors does not cancel out the upside that my wearing one offers.

I continue to wear a mask in most indoor settings (except when seated) *though I have to ask myself why I did not wear a mask indoors last week on the meets - indeed it was noticeable that none of us did.  I guess I did not want to be the only one wearing one…*

Click to expand...

It's noticeable that golf clubhouses are Covid free zones and the need to wear a mask or take any precaution is unnecessary.  I think that we're almost all guilty of this, I wear a mask when shopping, which is about the only other time I go in densely peopled places, but not in the clubhouse, strange.


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## Billysboots (Oct 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not sure why you are ‘erring’ on one side or the other.
		
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You might want to read my post again, which very clearly refers to why SOME are erring on the side of not wearing masks. I wasn’t specifically referring to me.

I also went on to say that I have continued to wear a mask throughout the pandemic, but am now less inclined to do so in areas where the use of face coverings is negligible. Let’s be honest, if I’m in a room of 100 people and the other 99 are mask free, I will genuinely feel less of an urge to mask up - there are 99 people there who couldn’t give a toss about themselves or anyone else.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			You might want to read my post again, which very clearly refers to why SOME are erring on the side of not wearing masks. I wasn’t specifically referring to me.

I also went on to say that I have continued to wear a mask throughout the pandemic, but am now less inclined to do so in areas where the use of face coverings is negligible. Let’s be honest, if I’m in a room of 100 people and the other 99 are mask free, I will genuinely feel less of an urge to mask up - there are 99 people there who couldn’t give a toss about themselves or anyone else.
		
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Sorry … my comment was simply on the use of the word ‘erring’ as that implies that there are risks both sides of a decision…as far as I am aware there are no risks to me associated with my wearing a mask.  But maybe I’m just being incorrectly pedantic as by wearing a mask I am indeed erring on the side of caution.  So perhaps i should retract my observation as it may have been made in error…🙄


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Having discussed the issue of mask wearing at length with those who sit both sides of the argument, I can see why some are now erring on the side of not wearing them.

A comment I often hear is that masks are not designed to protect the wearer, but others. If those others can’t be bothered to wear masks, then there seems little point in anyone continuing to wear them.

And I have to admit now that, if I enter a room or public place where there is minimal mask wearing then, whilst I have used one since the beginning of the pandemic, I am becoming less inclined to continue with it everywhere.
		
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Yes, Billy, your middle paragraph meaning  confused me for quite a while during this pandemic.
There we were ,being told that the mask you wore did not really protect you, but it did others. That could only have meant that the mask prevented droplets from you travelling to others , but aerosol breath could still get to you through the mask.
On that basis, I concluded that masks did little in confined indoor areas if you were all breathing the same air for some considerable time.

Others said they did protect the wearer , and after literature alleged that masks of a certain standard - "PM 2.5 preventable"- did offer protection to the wearer, then I changed my mind ( trusting the info to be correct).

I wear a mask in places where public go. I don't eat in restaurants etc.
Used to drink al fresco at golf club. Now I have a pint indoors not too near others, near open door etc etc.
Others think I'm too cautious, and I agree most are behaving in the clubhouse as if Covid has disappeared.
But, to date, the mask is still "one of my closest friends"😀
(


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## HampshireHog (Oct 12, 2021)

I still wear my mask in public indoor places for shopping.  

When I do the school run in our lift share everyone in the car wears a mask.

Not been to the Cinema yet, but will probably wear a mask.  Not going to pubs and restaurants.

Only place I am fairly relaxed about going to is the golf club, which has much more limited clientele than a pub or restaurant, so I perceive it to have less of a risk.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 12, 2021)

Don't know how many of you have had the booster jab yet, but had mine Thursday- Sore  throat Friday, runny nose Saturday ( lat flow test neg.)
A cold proper Sunday ( pcr test - neg.) Humdinger cold Monday, bit better today.
So, either the after effects of booster, or coincidentally caught a bad cold apparently doing the rounds in this neck of the woods .
I didn't have any effects after first two jabs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't know how many of you have had the booster jab yet, but had mine Thursday- Sore  throat Friday, runny nose Saturday ( lat flow test neg.)
A cold proper Sunday ( pcr test - neg.) Humdinger cold Monday, bit better today.
So, either the after effects of booster, or coincidentally caught a bad cold apparently doing the rounds in this neck of the woods .
I didn't have any effects after first two jabs.
		
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Different Vaccine? I think most of us got AstraZeneca first two jags, but it’ll be Moderna or Pfizer-BioNTech for the third.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Different Vaccine? I think most of us got AstraZeneca first two jags, but it’ll be Moderna or Pfizer-BioNTech for the third.
		
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Yes(and No?).
First two were pFizer.
This one was Comirnaty vaccine, made by PFizer , so apparently the same!


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## RichA (Oct 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, Billy, your middle paragraph meaning  confused me for quite a while during this pandemic.
There we were ,being told that the mask you wore did not really protect you, but it did others. That could only have meant that the mask prevented droplets from you travelling to others , but aerosol breath could still get to you through the mask.
On that basis, I concluded that masks did little in confined indoor areas if you were all breathing the same air for some considerable time.

Others said they did protect the wearer , and after literature alleged that masks of a certain standard - "PM 2.5 preventable"- did offer protection to the wearer, then I changed my mind ( trusting the info to be correct).

I wear a mask in places where public go. I don't eat in restaurants etc.
Used to drink al fresco at golf club. Now I have a pint indoors not too near others, near open door etc etc.
Others think I'm too cautious, and I agree most are behaving in the clubhouse as if Covid has disappeared.
But, to date, the mask is still "one of my closest friends"😀
(
		
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Similar with me. 
I'm one of the 50% still wearing a cloth mask in Tesco. 
My daily commute on the train, I wear a mask with a 2.5+ carbon filter. While masks are discretionary, about 50% are wearing them. Passenger numbers are still way below 2019 levels, but increasing as flights from Stansted increase. 
Once I'm on the Victoria Line, where mask wearing is mandatory, compliance goes down to about 25% at best and passenger numbers are pretty much back to pre-covid levels.
To highlight my own inconsistency, at work we aren't mask wearing in the busy, poorly ventilated office or if we go out in a vehicle. I often forget when I pop into the clubhouse to buy drinks, although almost everybody at the club still seems more comfortable having their post-golf eats and drinks on the veranda or in the giant gazebo. 
My desire to spend time in pubs, restaurants, cinemas and sports stadia was waning before the pandemic. It's now nil.


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## Ethan (Oct 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes(and No?).
First two were pFizer.
This one was Comirnaty vaccine, made by PFizer , so apparently the same!
		
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As said above, Pfizer and Moderna will be the vax. It is interesting that JCVI specifically said that AZ would not be part off the booster programme. Clinical evidence so far is that 2 Pfizer or Moderna gives better coverage than 2 AZ, although that it is still good, and previous AZ recipients have the most to gain from a booster, especially if Pfizer or Moderna. In an ideal world, previous Pfizer recipients would get Moderna booster, and the other way round. I got Pfizer so if I have a choice I will take Moderna booster. Sort of like immune system cross-training.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2021)

…and so as the daily numbers of infections grows and is now hitting over 40,000 (multiples greater than most if not all  comparable nations), we find it getting very close to home…again…as the two children of one very close friend are positive, plus another close couple are both isolating with infection suspected…pending PCR test results.

And yesterday evening I went to a golf club post-comp evening meal/presentation - and there we were, the sixty of us mainly 55 to 80 yr olds - crowding together and not one of us wearing a mask.  TBH I felt a bit uncomfortable.

Simply…concerning.


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## drdel (Oct 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and so as the daily numbers of infections grows and is now hitting over 40,000 (multiples greater than most if not all  comparable nations), we find it getting very close to home…again…as the two children of one very close friend are positive, plus another close couple are both isolating with infection suspected…pending PCR test results.

And yesterday evening I went to a golf club post-comp evening meal/presentation - and there we were, the sixty of us mainly 55 to 80 yr olds - crowding together and not one of us wearing a mask.  TBH I felt a bit uncomfortable.

Simply…concerning.
		
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You would have known your domestic situation and  dinner's arrangement prior to booking yet you still went


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 15, 2021)

Ok- news reports re the false PCR results are a little relevant to me, possibly.
Last Thursday, sore throat. Friday saw that go away but runny nose which increased mucous wise, coughing a bit, felt a bit iffy so on Saturday did a lateral flow test. Negative.
But iffier. Sunday, so did a PCR test. Came back Monday as negative. People were saying there was a nasty cold going around.
Still have got much mucous in nose. Seems to have gone  on to chest a bit so coughing up stuff in evenings. Breathing is ok. Can still fully breath in allright.

So, are they now going to tell us which laboratory is processing samples from which testing site. If samples from Newbury are going as far as Wolverhampton, people need to know which  testing site is sending stuff to which laboratory . 
If only one laboratory is affected ,( as they say) then such info could be very reassuring.
Does anyone ( Ethan?😀) know if one can ascertain which laboratory tested which testing station samples?


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## D-S (Oct 15, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Ok- news reports re the false PCR results are a little relevant to me, possibly.
Last Thursday, sore throat. Friday saw that go away but runny nose which increased mucous wise, coughing a bit, felt a bit iffy so on Saturday did a lateral flow test. Negative.
But iffier. Sunday, so did a PCR test. Came back Monday as negative. People were saying there was a nasty cold going around.
Still have got much mucous in nose. Seems to have gone  on to chest a bit so coughing up stuff in evenings. Breathing is ok. Can still fully breath in allright.

So, are they now going to tell us which laboratory is processing samples from which testing site. If samples from Newbury are going as far as Wolverhampton, people need to know which  testing site is sending stuff to which laboratory .
If only one laboratory is affected ,( as they say) then such info could be very reassuring.
Does anyone ( Ethan?😀) know if one can ascertain which laboratory tested which testing station samples?
		
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Apparently all those who may have been effected will be contacted by Test and Trace.


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and so as the daily numbers of infections grows and is now hitting over 40,000 (multiples greater than most if not all  comparable nations), we find it getting very close to home…again…as the two children of one very close friend are positive, plus another close couple are both isolating with infection suspected…pending PCR test results.

*And yesterday evening I went to a golf club post-comp evening meal/presentation - and there we were, the sixty of us mainly 55 to 80 yr olds - crowding together and not one of us wearing a mask.  TBH I felt a bit uncomfortable*.

Simply…concerning.
		
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So if you were so concerned, why wouldn't you wear a mask yourself, regardless of what everyone else is doing?


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## D-S (Oct 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And yesterday evening I went to a golf club post-comp evening meal/presentation - and there we were, the sixty of us mainly 55 to 80 yr olds - crowding together and not one of us wearing a mask.  TBH I felt a bit uncomfortable.

Simply…concerning.
		
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Would you have felt comfortable if someone else had ruled that you had to wear a mask as opposed to being able to make that choice yourself? (or even the choice to attend a large indoor gathering?) Are you concerned about the lack of rules or that you have choice and chose not to exercise it?


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## GB72 (Oct 15, 2021)

This is it, people feel they need to be told what to do. I still wear a mask and social distance, I control where I go and the positions I put myself in and I am fine with that.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 15, 2021)

Friends of ours caught it a week or two ago. Their son was first, university student so not out of the ordinary as students go back, they got it shortly after. He is 21, they are early and mid 50's, all double jabbed. 2 of them said it was like a light cold, the third like a chesty cold. All 3 were fine in 2-5 days.

The above made me feel fairly relaxed, perhaps why at this stage things are less stressful than a year ago. The vaccine seems to be doing its job and whilst infection rates are high the knock on effect doesn't seem as bad.

The above can change but so far it is going as people suggested.


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## larmen (Oct 15, 2021)

Got my booster invite today. Going early next week.

Taking the 3rd closest centre offered to me. The nearest would involve a swim through the Thames to get to their miles estimate. They use the same free tools I used at work ;-)


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## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2021)

larmen said:



			Got my booster invite today. Going early next week.

Taking the 3rd closest centre offered to me. The nearest would involve a swim through the Thames to get to their miles estimate. They use the same free tools I used at work ;-)
		
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Dad just got his threw. Ironically he was double jabbed 1 day after me and I haven't had invite yet 

But their up to 17th April for double jabs on walk ins so once hits 21st I can go get my booster


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## bobmac (Oct 15, 2021)

_''Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission of the delta variant.'' _

_https://www.nbcnews.com/health/heal...kely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583_


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			Apparently all those who may have been effected will be contacted by Test and Trace.
		
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Hmmm....
And the way I read it - might be wrong- but that may be  only those that they think might be infectious still. T'would be not too difficult to publish what testing sites use what laboratories.


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## larmen (Oct 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Dad just got his threw. Ironically he was double jabbed 1 day after me and I haven't had invite yet

But their up to 17th April for double jabs on walk ins so once hits 21st I can go get my booster
		
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I think it’s going by ages rather than 2nd vaccination  date. Is you dad older than you? ;-)

My invite mentioned increased risk of complications, that’s why I get in early.

_As you are at increased risk of complications from COVID-19, you are a priority to receive your COVID-19 booster vaccine._

_Prep existing conditions._


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## chellie (Oct 15, 2021)

Booster vaccine doses will be available on the NHS for people most at risk from COVID-19 who have had a 2nd dose of a vaccine at least 6 months ago.
This includes:

people aged 50 and over
people who live and work in care homes
frontline health and social care workers
people aged 16 and over with a health condition that puts them at high risk of getting seriously ill from COVID-19
people aged 16 and over who are a main carer for someone at high risk from COVID-19
people aged 16 and over who live with someone who is more likely to get infections (such as someone who has HIV, has had a transplant or is having certain treatments for cancer, lupus or rheumatoid arthritis)
If you are eligible it will let you book online.

Mines booked for Sunday.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 15, 2021)

larmen said:



			I think it’s going by ages rather than 2nd vaccination  date. Is you dad older than you? ;-)

My invite mentioned increased risk of complications, that’s why I get in early.

_As you are at increased risk of complications from COVID-19, you are a priority to receive your COVID-19 booster vaccine._

_Prep existing conditions._

Click to expand...

I got mine due to underlying conditions a day before him each time 

His isn't his age it's his heart 

Our borough do drop ins for those vaccinated by a certain date .. we up to 17th April ATM I'm just 4 days off then I can head for mine


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2021)

drdel said:



			You would have known your domestic situation and  dinner's arrangement prior to booking yet you still went
		
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That is not the point…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			Would you have felt comfortable if someone else had ruled that you had to wear a mask as opposed to being able to make that choice yourself? (or even the choice to attend a large indoor gathering?) Are you concerned about the lack of rules or that you have choice and chose not to exercise it?
		
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Again…that is not the point.  The point is that in a group of that age range not one of us was wearing a mask…though the staff were…whilst in many other indoor contexts the majority would have been.  As others have confirmed my golf club is not alone in this.  And i am not sure what makes us feel ‘less vulnerable’ in a clubhouse than in, say, a supermarket. 

As it happens, yes, I would have been quite happy to wear a mask if requested, as I am on many church premises, and as is still the case (or so I believe) in all indoor contexts in Scotland.


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## D-S (Oct 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Again…that is not the point.  The point is that in a group of that age range not one of us was wearing a mask…though the staff were…whilst in many other indoor contexts the majority would have been.  As others have confirmed my golf club is not alone in this.  And i am not sure what makes us feel ‘less vulnerable’ in a clubhouse than in, say, a supermarket.

As it happens, yes, I would have been quite happy to wear a mask if requested, as I am on many church premises, and as is still the case (or so I believe) in all indoor contexts in Scotland.
		
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It is exactly the point. You chose not to wear a mask and attend a large function yet are concerned about people not wearing masks and attending large functions. If the only thing that stops you doing things that you believe are potentially harmful to you and your family is direct intervention by the State, then you have a problem of your own making.


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## drdel (Oct 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That is not the point…
		
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I'm afraid it is.

Until recently eating out involved venues/places using social distancing measures and only permitted removing masks while eating. 

COVID is still infecting people and you express your concerns for you family members yet even with that knowledge you ignore prudence and then whinge - strange logic.


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## chellie (Oct 16, 2021)

I've nipped into the supermarket whilst GD had her golf lesson. Not many wearing masks but I was.


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## arnieboy (Oct 16, 2021)

My wife and I are taking òur 8 year old granddaughter to Portugal for the half term break. We have to book lateral flow tests for our return, looking at the government website there appear to be 350 providers in the South East. Would anyone be able to give a personal recommendation or should we take pot luck choosing a mid price option? Thanks.


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2021)

chellie said:



			I've nipped into the supermarket whilst GD had her golf lesson. Not many wearing masks but I was.
		
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No choice here Chellie. No mask, no service. 100% compliance in shops.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 16, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			My wife and I are taking òur 8 year old granddaughter to Portugal for the half term break. We have to book lateral flow tests for our return, looking at the government website there appear to be 350 providers in the South East. Would anyone be able to give a personal recommendation or should we take pot luck choosing a mid price option? Thanks.
		
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Who are you going with? We used TUI Chronomics for ours, all seems very straightforward and efficient. Not sure if they supply non-TUI customers though


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2021)

D-S said:



			It is exactly the point. You chose not to wear a mask and attend a large function yet are concerned about people not wearing masks and attending large functions. If the only thing that stops you doing things that you believe are potentially harmful to you and your family is direct intervention by the State, then you have a problem of your own making.
		
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I’m not complaining about any risk to me or my family.   I know I could have walked out of the function. I’m talking about what’s going on in the wider community in general and specifically close to home (including my golf club) in the context of rising numbers of infections.

I am happy to comply with what the state might ask of me if it is aimed at protecting others.  That you might not wish to take that view is indeed simply your choice, but it is not mine, and I do not see my view as any sort of problem whatsoever - it is a reasonable request as a civic duty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2021)

drdel said:



			I'm afraid it is.

Until recently eating out involved venues/places using social distancing measures and only permitted removing masks while eating.

COVID is still infecting people and you express your concerns for you family members yet even with that knowledge you ignore prudence and then whinge - strange logic.
		
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Jeez…I did not express in my post any concern for myself or my family…i simply made general observations about what I am seeing.  Please stop reading more into my posts than is actually there.  I have no hidden agenda in this matter.  Please stop trying to find one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			So if you were so concerned, why wouldn't you wear a mask yourself, regardless of what everyone else is doing?
		
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Not going to repeat myself.  Just read my bloody post.  I felt a bit uncomfortable being in an environment of 60 blokes  standing packed together and to my surprise much closer together than I had expected…and so I didn’t join the melee.  I kept myself a bit apart and then went to the dining area and sat down at my table.  I knew at the time I should really put a mask on, but none of us like being the odd one out…but I kept apart until seated.


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And yesterday evening I went to a golf club post-comp evening meal/presentation - and there we were, the sixty of us mainly 55 to 80 yr olds - crowding together and not one of us wearing a mask.  TBH I felt a bit uncomfortable.
		
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Thats what you wrote. Where in what I have pasted above do you say you kept some distance and went and sat down?
What would you read by what is written? You would get the same impression as everyone else..
Personally, I don't give a monkeys about what you and your club mates get up to, but please don't go on how "uncomfortable" you were with it because most people I know who are "uncomfortable" with that situation wouldn't be there or get into that situation.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Thats what you wrote. Where in what I have pasted above do you say you kept some distance and went and sat down?
What would you read by what is written? You would get the same impression as everyone else..
Personally, I don't give a monkeys about what you and your club mates get up to, but please don't go on how "uncomfortable" you were with it because most people I know who are "uncomfortable" with that situation wouldn't be there or get into that situation.
		
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I felt a bit uncomfortable as there were 60 older guys crowded together - did I say I was worried about my health.  No I didn’t.  And I was also a bit concerned that I wasn't wearing a mask, and did question myself, and so kept a bit apart.  I was making an observation about how relaxed we (including myself) have become about mask wearing - at least in some contexts - when infection numbers are rising.  I don’t have to provide every bleeding’ detail.  End of.


----------



## harpo_72 (Oct 16, 2021)

Flew out to Sweden, supposed to be restricted access but I had a letter saying I was required. I thought this was either going to end with me being not allowed to board, as I don’t look like a sensible person who is required.
But they past me through, and I was told I didn’t need my PCR test results as I was double vaccinated. But the vaccination pass is NHS and not compatible with the current EU requirements. But all of this was really cobblers, as the Swedish customs looked at the PCR test and said have you got the Vaccine pass certificate and I showed my NHS one and he was happy with that.
But big takeaway is don’t eat garlic if you have to wear a mask on a plane .. you really get the benefit ☹️


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I felt uncomfortable…did I say I was worried about my health.  And I was also a bit concerned that I wasn't wearing a mask and so kept a bit apart.  I was making an observation, i don’t have to provide every bleeding’ detail.  End of.
		
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I have a mask with me at all times, and I  choose whether to put it on or not.
BTW I didn't make any comment on your health......just your feeling uncomfortable yet willing to be there and make comment about it.
If you don't want people to comment on what you write or think, don't put it into text format.


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## arnieboy (Oct 16, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Who are you going with? We used TUI Chronomics for ours, all seems very straightforward and efficient. Not sure if they supply non-TUI customers though
		
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Thanks, although we regularly use TUI for holidays, on this occasion it is a direct booking.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 16, 2021)

Guys
SILH has posted about his feelings about people not wearing masks in a crowded enclosed environment, 
He is perfectly entitled to post his feelings and observations , it covers things like peer pressure. 
Please do not have a go, just because you might disagree with him, 

At least it wasn’t political 👍


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Oct 16, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not going to repeat myself.  Just read my bloody post.  I felt a bit uncomfortable being in an environment of 60 blokes  standing packed together and to my surprise much closer together than I had expected…and so I didn’t join the melee.  I kept myself a bit apart and then went to the dining area and sat down at my table.  I knew at the time I should really put a mask on, but none of us like being the odd one out…but I kept apart until seated.
		
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Were there other members who declined to attend ,who were happy to be the "odd one out" in order to feel comfortable ?
"None of us likes to be the odd one out" doesn't worry me if the reason is right ,or sensible, or necessary😀


----------



## Barking_Mad (Oct 17, 2021)

Current weekly death toll would mean 35,000+ dead per year. Flu averages about 10k apparently.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Oct 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where is that for and can you show a link please?
Ta
		
Click to expand...

UK summary of Covid stats.....

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

852 deaths in the last seven days. Multiply that by 52 weeks and it's over 44k per year.


----------



## bobmac (Oct 17, 2021)

I changed my mind and deleted my post.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 17, 2021)

arnieboy said:



			My wife and I are taking òur 8 year old granddaughter to Portugal for the half term break. We have to book lateral flow tests for our return, looking at the government website there appear to be 350 providers in the South East. Would anyone be able to give a personal recommendation or should we take pot luck choosing a mid price option? Thanks.
		
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Arnie we used a company called “testing for all” they were very good.if Missis T is happy so am I. 👍


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## Tashyboy (Oct 17, 2021)

Me and Missis T are back from Torquay, Paignton, Brixham, Exeter, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Dartmouth, Slapton, Salcombe, Polperro, Looe, Plymouth and probably a few other places Ave missed out. Beautiful part of the world. Ave got facial fanny rash from wearing masks
Now my thoughts on the handling of Covid were well documented. For me the current rates are shocking, but people’s attitudes to the not wearing of masks quite frankly is unbelievable. Wherever we went, be it Chippys, pubs, shops people have soon forgotten the lockdown. Ave a feeling the winter months will be unpleasant ☹️ Stay safe folk.


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## SammmeBee (Oct 17, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Me and Missis T are back from Torquay, Paignton, Brixham, Exeter, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Dartmouth, Slapton, Salcombe, Polperro, Looe, Plymouth and probably a few other places Ave missed out. Beautiful part of the world. Ave got facial fanny rash from wearing masks
Now my thoughts on the handling of Covid were well documented. For me the current rates are shocking, but people’s attitudes to the not wearing of masks quite frankly is unbelievable. Wherever we went, be it Chippys, pubs, shops people have soon forgotten the lockdown. Ave a feeling the winter months will be unpleasant ☹️ Stay safe folk.
		
Click to expand...

Great to hear so many places just getting on with normality to be honest….


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## Tashyboy (Oct 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Great to hear so many places just getting on with normality to be honest….
		
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It is but Ave a feeling the old normality could bite us in the bum. ☹️


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## Ethan (Oct 17, 2021)

I find it quite amazing that people are willing to walk into private businesses that have a sign on the door asking them to wear masks, but they choose not to. Even if you don't think masks are necessary, it is an act of discourtesy not to do as requested.


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## SammmeBee (Oct 17, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I find it quite amazing that people are willing to walk into private businesses that have a sign on the door asking them to wear masks, but they choose not to. Even if you don't think masks are necessary, it is an act of discourtesy not to do as requested.
		
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Very few left though….


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Very few left though….
		
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Shame


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## chellie (Oct 18, 2021)

Had my Pfizer booster yesterday. Arm a tiny bit sore this morning but that's it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2021)

Scotland doing something right:


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## BiMGuy (Oct 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland doing something right:
View attachment 39087

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That's just the law of averages at work.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Scotland doing something right:
View attachment 39087

Click to expand...

School / teenager related? Scottish schools went back earlier, covid has gone through them and things are settling down. English and Welsh schools are a few weeks behind. I think, from recent news comments, that most numbers at the moment are in younger people and so this would fit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			School / teenager related? Scottish schools went back earlier, covid has gone through them and things are settling down. English and Welsh schools are a few weeks behind. I think, from recent news comments, that most numbers at the moment are in younger people and so this would fit.
		
Click to expand...

…and mask wearing in indoor public spaces\shops\stores\hospitality etc is still mandatory.  Well it was a few weeks ago and haven’t heard that being dropped.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and mask wearing in indoor public spaces\shops\stores\hospitality etc is still mandatory.  Well it was a few weeks ago and haven’t heard that being dropped.
		
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Then why are most stores carrying notices that it is now your choice?  Premier Inn at the weekend said that, Halfords acknowledged that it was your choice but said they prefer you to wear one to protect their staff.  Their staff however seemed exempt from wearing one to protect the customers...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Then why are most stores carrying notices that it is now your choice?  Premier Inn at the weekend said that, Halfords acknowledged that it was your choice but said they prefer you to wear one to protect their staff.  Their staff however seemed exempt from wearing one to protect the customers...
		
Click to expand...

Not in Scotland they aren’t…and I was talking about Scotland given the comment another poster made about Scotland must be doing something different/better.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and mask wearing in indoor public spaces\shops\stores\hospitality etc is still mandatory.  Well it was a few weeks ago and haven’t heard that being dropped.
		
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It didn't stop the spike that has occurred though, which was significant, so we don't know yet how much impact the mask wearing has. England and Wales are at a different point on the curve, you can only compare when they are at equivalent points.


----------



## larmen (Oct 19, 2021)

Pfizer 3. This time the stabbing hurt a lot more.


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## road2ruin (Oct 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It didn't stop the spike that has occurred though, which was significant, so we don't know yet how much impact the mask wearing has. England and Wales are at a different point on the curve, you can only compare when they are at equivalent points.
		
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I would tend to agree, throughout this the different regions (and even countries) have reached different points at different times. Scotland had their schools go back and despite the mandated mask wearing had a significant increase in cases. We took out the need for masks (in all circumstances) and didn't have a particular spike but it was summer and schools were off so we're now just starting to feel the affects whilst Scotland are further along the curve.


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It didn't stop the spike that has occurred though, which was significant, so we don't know yet how much impact the mask wearing has. England and Wales are at a different point on the curve, you can only compare when they are at equivalent points.
		
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Mask wearing was never a panacea. Few of the measures outside vaccination are, and even that is a qualified description of vaccination. But added together, they have a combined effect. You don't know what the spike would have been had one element been changed. This was one of the problems of throwing away all the lockdown measures at once - it was hard to say what the effect of any individual one was.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

Havering opened up walk ins for those double jabbed before 24th April ..

21st for me so I'll be down there 

Bit odd.. my dad got invited last week.. he had his second jab 22nd April .. we both got txts same time (diff drs) however I've not been invited for a booster .. even tho I had day before.. I checked with Dr I am getting one they just can't book people on until 6 months after. Dunno how my dad's drs managed it 

Oh well I'll go walk in tomorrow and that will solve that


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## Robster59 (Oct 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not in Scotland they aren’t…and I was talking about Scotland given the comment another poster made about Scotland must be doing something different/better.
		
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The trouble is so many people are ignoring the mask rule in Scotland and the stores aren't enforcing it.  I went into a Starbucks in Hamilton yesterday, and of the four people queuing for coffee, I was the only one wearing a mask.  And I see the same in shops all over.


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## chellie (Oct 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			Pfizer 3. This time the stabbing hurt a lot more.
		
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Have never felt any of my three.


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## larmen (Oct 19, 2021)

chellie said:



			Have never felt any of my three.
		
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I think it’s down to the person doing it. 1st one I was aware off, 2nd one was done before I expected her doing it, this one was a little more noticeable.


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## GB72 (Oct 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			I think it’s down to the person doing it. 1st one I was aware off, 2nd one was done before I expected her doing it, this one was a little more noticeable.
		
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There is a skill to needles. When I have a blood test each year, there is one nurse who can be chatting away and then suddenly let me know it is all done (I look away) and I never even feel it. Others are, shall we say, not at that skill level and I am sure then can make it hurt more if you have annoyed them somehow


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2021)

GB72 said:



			There is a skill to needles. When I have a blood test each year, there is one nurse who can be chatting away and then suddenly let me know it is all done (I look away) and I never even feel it. Others are, shall we say, not at that skill level and I am sure then can make it hurt more if you have annoyed them somehow 

Click to expand...

There is a skill. There are different techniques but it is a pretty fine needle, so grab some skin and muscle and quick jab rather than gently push it in is probably best. Not too deep, either, can penetrate the shoulder capsule in people with skinny deltoids. Blood tests usually use wider needles.

I had my 2 x Pfizer (booster in Nov, probs) from a nurse and a GP and barely felt either.


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## road2ruin (Oct 19, 2021)

My first was AZ and I thought they'd brought a vet, felt every part of the needle and it definitely needed sharpening. The second round was fine, far more as I'd have expected a jab to be.


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## bobmac (Oct 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is a skill. There are different techniques but it is a pretty fine needle, so grab some skin and muscle and quick jab rather than gently push it in is probably best. Not too deep, either, can penetrate the shoulder capsule in people with skinny deltoids. Blood tests usually use wider needles.

I had my 2 x Pfizer (booster in Nov, probs) from a nurse and a GP and barely felt either.
		
Click to expand...

When I give blood, they use a thing the size of a knitting needle


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## Tashyboy (Oct 19, 2021)

When I was in the junior first aid team at the pit, we watched the seniors inject water so they could have there morphine certification for underground use. You had to give it and receive it. One of the lads was nervous and tried twice to inject the small needle. Both times he failed yet drew blood. At the third attempt the bloke on the consultation couch jumped of and yelled “ no f in chance am not an Efin dartboard”. We were crying with laughter.


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			When I give blood, they use a thing the size of a knitting needle  

Click to expand...

The base of the needle where it connects to the syringe has a colour band that denotes the width of the lumen (inside the needle). Blood tests usually use a green one, but a blue one is a bit finer.


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## chellie (Oct 19, 2021)

OT, but our granddaughter is Type 1. It is a battle sometimes with the GP to prescribe the nicer needles


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## chellie (Oct 19, 2021)

larmen said:



			I think it’s down to the person doing it. 1st one I was aware off, 2nd one was done before I expected her doing it, this one was a little more noticeable.
		
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Definately. Pharmacist giving this years flu jab was quite brutal!


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## Pants (Oct 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			When I give blood, they use a thing the size of a knitting needle
		
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That's only because they like you Bob


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58973185

So when do they bring in plan b ?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58973185

So when do they bring in plan b ?
		
Click to expand...

When they can't avoid it and public opinion starts moving towards reintroducing some restrictions. I think masks in indoor public areas, shops/pubs etc, will be the first thing brought back followed by working from home. Don't think we'll see another full lockdown again.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			When they can't avoid it and public opinion starts moving towards reintroducing some restrictions. I think masks in indoor public areas, shops/pubs etc, will be the first thing brought back followed by working from home. Don't think we'll see another full lockdown again.
		
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Blooming hope not. I mean loads of people didn't stick to it

Those with genuine reasons to be out were judged by everyone 

Everyone turned into an expert

Just stick Netflix's on and ignore what everyone else is doing you nosey parkers


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Blooming hope not. I mean loads of people didn't stick to it

Those with genuine reasons to be out were judged by everyone

Everyone turned into an expert

Just stick Netflix's on and ignore what everyone else is doing you nosey parkers
		
Click to expand...

The people that amuse me are the ones that say that they won't abide by a future lockdown that could possibly be introduced. As if they are going to have any choice. Are they planning to go and sit outside closed pubs and restaurants and try to order drinks or a meal? Or they going to turn up outside of closed gyms and try to gain access? How exactly are they going to refuse to abide by the lockdown if everywhere is closed?


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## road2ruin (Oct 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			The people that amuse me are the ones that say that they won't abide by a future lockdown that could possibly be introduced. As if they are going to have any choice. Are they planning to go and sit outside closed pubs and restaurants and try to order drinks or a meal? Or they going to turn up outside of closed gyms and try to gain access? How exactly are they going to refuse to abide by the lockdown if everywhere is closed?
		
Click to expand...

If there is a lockdown though what was the point of the vaccine roll out? You might as well tell the hospitality industry that they’re done, shut up shop and do something else unless they’re going to be financially supported every winter. 

Obviously I won’t be able to go to the pub if they’re closed but I won’t stop seeing friends and family indoors in the coming months.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			The people that amuse me are the ones that say that they won't abide by a future lockdown that could possibly be introduced. As if they are going to have any choice. Are they planning to go and sit outside closed pubs and restaurants and try to order drinks or a meal? Or they going to turn up outside of closed gyms and try to gain access? How exactly are they going to refuse to abide by the lockdown if everywhere is closed?
		
Click to expand...

Go to tesco 5 times a day


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			When they can't avoid it and public opinion starts moving towards reintroducing some restrictions. I think masks in indoor public areas, shops/pubs etc, will be the first thing brought back followed by working from home. Don't think we'll see another full lockdown again.
		
Click to expand...

My work are looking to get everyone back into the office for a couple days a week- no issues for me , until they then decided that it’s tues and wed - so everyone will be in those two days only , no flexibility to pick days so that the offices don’t have too many in - will just take the one person to get Covid


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58973185

So when do they bring in plan b ?
		
Click to expand...

When it is too late.


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## 4LEX (Oct 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			When it is too late.
		
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Isn't that the truth.

Should be face masks back and vaccine passports for live music, sports and pubs.


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## road2ruin (Oct 19, 2021)

4LEX said:



			……vaccine passports for live music, sports and pubs.
		
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Isn’t the evidence that regardless of vax vs unvaxxed the transmission rates are comparable. The only person the unvaxxed are hurting are themselves so vaccine passports aren’t actually helpful in any way.


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## 4LEX (Oct 19, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Isn’t the evidence that regardless of vax vs unvaxxed the transmission rates are comparable. The only person the unvaxxed are hurting are themselves so vaccine passports aren’t actually helpful in any way.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think that's the case. Vaccines reduce transmission, the only issue up for debate is by how much. It varies by the different vaccine but 40-60% is widely accepted. As the data emerges in Europe the benefit in jabbing kids to stop tranmission is looking like another game changer.

Most people with common sense and a brain have been double jabbed, why not ban the unvaxxed who are increasing transmission and show no care to blocking up hospitals? These are the people who are putting most of our freedom back at risk. Schools should be no jab, no admission for pupils when everyone has been offered the jab.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Isn’t the evidence that regardless of vax vs unvaxxed the transmission rates are comparable. The only person the unvaxxed are hurting are themselves so vaccine passports aren’t actually helpful in any way.
		
Click to expand...

_''A large study, not yet peer-reviewed, led by a team at Oxford University and looking specifically at the Delta variant has shown that *both the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines do indeed reduce transmission of the disease.''* _

_'_https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...us-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''A large study, not yet peer-reviewed, led by a team at Oxford University and looking specifically at the Delta variant has shown that *both the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines do indeed reduce transmission of the disease.''* _

_'_https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...us-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus

Click to expand...

_“Three months after having the AstraZeneca vaccine, those who had breakthrough infections were just as likely to spread the Delta variant as the unvaccinated. While protection against transmission decreased in people who had received the Pfizer vaccine.”_

Not unless we’re going to start jabbing people every 6 months though. 

I accept the argument that those not having the vaccine are more likely to get seriously ill and therefore put more strain on the NHS however I personally don’t believe there should be mandated vaccine passports.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Schools should be no jab, no admission for pupils when everyone has been offered the jab.
		
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Really? So young children who are, fortunately and largely unaffected by the virus should be jabbed otherwise they cannot attend school?!

This was about protecting the vulnerable which has been done, the ages of those receiving the vaccine has steadily declined. I don’t believe that younger children should be made to have the vaccine, it should be parental choice and certainly not a case of not being allowed into school without a jab, that would be ridiculous.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



_“Three months after having the AstraZeneca vaccine, *those who had breakthrough infections were just as likely to spread the Delta variant as the unvaccinated*. While protection against transmission decreased in people who had received the Pfizer vaccine.”_

Not unless we’re going to start jabbing people every 6 months though.

I accept the argument that those not having the vaccine are more likely to get seriously ill and therefore put more strain on the NHS however I personally don’t believe there should be mandated vaccine passports.
		
Click to expand...

The important bit you are overlooking is that people who were vaccinated were very much less likely to have breakthrough infections than the unvaccinated. 

The finding that AZ confers some, but less protection is the reason it is now being quietly bypassed in the booster programme, and arguably why the UK needs a booster programme when other countries who used greater proportion of mRNAs don't.


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## chellie (Oct 20, 2021)

Had to go to the large supermarket yesterday. Hardly anyone wearing a mask and social distancing seemed to be a thing of the past. I made it a rapid visit and I won't return unless I have to.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Isn’t the evidence that regardless of vax vs unvaxxed the transmission rates are comparable. The only person the unvaxxed are hurting are themselves so vaccine passports aren’t actually helpful in any way.
		
Click to expand...

No. It isn't. Quite the opposite, in fact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2021)

My wife had her third jag last Saturday and has felt off colour since - maybe coincidence as none of sig covid symptoms but nevertheless off colour.  Reported her symptoms through the ZOE Study yesterday afternoon as wasn’t feeling better and was asked to take a PCR test, which she did yesterday…results later today she was advised.  Meanwhile has taken a LF test - negative - but will isolate until PCR result comes through.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife had her third jag last Saturday and has felt off colour since - maybe coincidence as none of sig covid symptoms but nevertheless off colour.  Reported her symptoms through the ZOE Study yesterday afternoon as wasn’t feeling better and was asked to take a PCR test, which she did yesterday…results later today she was advised.  Meanwhile has taken a LF test - negative - but will isolate until PCR result comes through.
		
Click to expand...

Symptoms listed in the vaccine advice leaflet in the 48 hours after vaccination do not require a test.


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## SaintHacker (Oct 20, 2021)

I think its fairly obvious the strategy now is to let it circulate and build a herd immunity. It isn't going away, 3 lockdowns but each time it just roars back. There's only so much we can do. Sooner or later we have to roll up our sleeves and get on with life. I don't mean not take sensible precautions while we do that, but we can't keep hiding from this. Whilst it could be argued, with the benefit of hindsight, the government have stumbled from one mistake to another the vaccine roll out has been a huge success. IF peole are stupid enough to believe the facebook virologists and refuse it then thats their choice, natural selection always wins out in the end.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My wife had her third jag last Saturday and has felt off colour since - maybe coincidence as none of sig covid symptoms but nevertheless off colour.  Reported her symptoms through the ZOE Study yesterday afternoon as wasn’t feeling better and was asked to take a PCR test, which she did yesterday…results later today she was advised.  Meanwhile has taken a LF test - negative - but will isolate until PCR result comes through.
		
Click to expand...

What are the symptoms?  In the 24 hrs following mine I had a sore throat for a day, and then it went, replaced by a runny nose turning into really excess mucous from the nose. Just keeps coming.
However, this may be coincidental and my problem may be sinus related.


----------



## Swinglowandslow (Oct 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I think its fairly obvious the strategy now is to let it circulate and build a herd immunity. It isn't going away, 3 lockdowns but each time it just roars back. There's only so much we can do. Sooner or later we have to roll up our sleeves and get on with life. I don't mean not take sensible precautions while we do that, but we can't keep hiding from this. Whilst it could be argued, with the benefit of hindsight, the government have stumbled from one mistake to another the vaccine roll out has been a huge success. IF peole are stupid enough to believe the facebook virologists and refuse it then thats their choice, natural selection always wins out in the end.
		
Click to expand...


I agree it's their choice. But that choice making should have consequences.
Like no admissions, no flights, etc. 
This "freedom" to inflict illness and worse on others really p.......s me off.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 20, 2021)




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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 20, 2021)

Back in the office this week, can honestly say it's shit. Commuting, social contact, doing exactly what I was doing at home, but now of course printing reams of paper and driving 40 miles round trip daily. Very green. Very mental health aware


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



View attachment 39098

Click to expand...

This graph is meaningless unless you include another to show the testing rate within each of the countries. We could get rid of Covid overnight if we stopped testing......


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## SaintHacker (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



View attachment 39098

Click to expand...

Its just a number. Whats the %age by population? What's their testing rates? Hospitalisations? Deaths?
Lies, damn lies and statistics...


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



_“Three months after having the AstraZeneca vaccine, those who had breakthrough infections were just as likely to spread the Delta variant as the unvaccinated. While protection against transmission decreased in people who had received the Pfizer vaccine.”_

Click to expand...

Can you give us the link to that please?


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Can you give us the link to that please?
		
Click to expand...

Read the article that you posted.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This graph is meaningless unless you include another to show the testing rate within each of the countries. We could get rid of Covid overnight if we stopped testing......
		
Click to expand...

You really think the testing rate is massively higher here than on the continent?

Here are another couple of worrying stats, courtesy of Sky News this morning. No doubt these are equally meaningless in your view - 

The UK now has one of the highest weekly rates of new reported cases in the world, and vaccination rates have fallen behind other European countries.

Data shows that approximately 67% of the population has received two doses of a COVID-19 jab, compared with 75% in Denmark, 79% in Spain and 86% in Portugal.

While the weekly rate of new reported cases stands at 24 per 100,000 people in Spain and 48 per 100,000 people in France, this figure currently stands at 463 per 100,000 people in the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Symptoms listed in the vaccine advice leaflet in the 48 hours after vaccination do not require a test.
		
Click to expand...

That is what she supposed, but the ZOE Study asked her to take a PCR test in any case.

An observation - so anecdotal - she felt a bit better yesterday morning so we took a 1hr guided tour of Canterbury Cathedral.  There were 10 of us, all British; all probably over 40, and all I suspect, at least double vaccinated - and we all wore a mask throughout the tour as requested by the Cathedral and the government - though not explicitly by the guide though she also wore a mask.  We all wore a mask of our own accord - what made us so compliant I wondered.

My Mrs took the added precaution of us generally keeping a bit apart from the rest of the group - even though she was not covid symptomatic and in a cathedral you might as well be outdoors 😊

Given current rates and concerns I cannot help but compare and contrast the behaviour of the tour group with that of the wider public and that of a much bigger group of 650 individuals enclosed in a very confined space with not a lot of ventilation…and of the latter - well I just don’t get it.

btw - she’s feeling a lot better this morning.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			You really think the testing rate is massively higher here than on the continent?

Here are another couple of worrying stats, courtesy of Sky News this morning. No doubt these are equally meaningless in your view -

The UK now has one of the highest weekly rates of new reported cases in the world, and vaccination rates have fallen behind other European countries.

Data shows that approximately 67% of the population has received two doses of a COVID-19 jab, compared with 75% in Denmark, 79% in Spain and 86% in Portugal.

While the weekly rate of new reported cases stands at 24 per 100,000 people in Spain and 48 per 100,000 people in France, this figure currently stands at 463 per 100,000 people in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know what the testing rate is in other countries however I would prefer to have that information along with your graph as it gives more context. I have no doubt we're probably doing worse than other European countries however I do think that the graph that you have posted exaggerates for affect given that our testing is certainly higher so our case rate will be as well.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Read the article that you posted.
		
Click to expand...

Wow.
It's a shame you didn't quote the rest of the sentence. 

_''Three months after having the AstraZeneca vaccine, those who had breakthrough infections were just as likely to spread the Delta variant as the unvaccinated. While protection against transmission decreased in people who had received the Pfizer vaccine, *there was still a benefit when compared with unvaccinated people.'' .*_


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## BiMGuy (Oct 20, 2021)

Anymore lockdowns would be pointless, and only do more damage. This isn't going away so we need to get used to it. 

Shelter the vulnerable and at risk groups if need be, and let the rest of us get on with life. 
Even many of those considered most at risk aren't doing much, if anything to protect themselves.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Wow.
It's a shame you didn't quote the rest of the sentence.

_''Three months after having the AstraZeneca vaccine, those who had breakthrough infections were just as likely to spread the Delta variant as the unvaccinated. While protection against transmission decreased in people who had received the Pfizer vaccine, *there was still a benefit when compared with unvaccinated people.'' .*_

Click to expand...

My point was that efficacy wanes over time and being vaccinated doesn't stop the spread which was the thinking earlier on in the process. Also, the bit you have highlighted is for those that had Pfizer, most of us had AZ so we're spreading it around just as much as the unvaxxed at the moment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



View attachment 39098

Click to expand...

If you were listening you will have heard KK finish the interview asserting that the government is not being complacent.


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## GreiginFife (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			You really think the testing rate is massively higher here than on the continent?

Here are another couple of worrying stats, courtesy of Sky News this morning. No doubt these are equally meaningless in your view -

The UK now has one of the highest weekly rates of new reported cases in the world, and vaccination rates have fallen behind other European countries.

Data shows that approximately 67% of the population has received two doses of a COVID-19 jab, compared with 75% in Denmark, 79% in Spain and 86% in Portugal.

While the weekly rate of new reported cases stands at 24 per 100,000 people in Spain and 48 per 100,000 people in France, this figure currently stands at 463 per 100,000 people in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Data comparability will always be a bit tricky though. This also includes data source variance. Sky News say 67% of the population in the UK but the Gov.uk site for Covid data says 78.9% of 12+ have 2 doses (plus we have started a booster programme). 

I am in no way a fan of the way this has all been handled but as far as looking at a bunch of numbers and saying who is better or worse without the insight that gives them comparability then I have to say, I need to know more (e.g. we did 6.43 million tests in the last 7 days, what did everyone else do so that I can reliably compare).


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## rudebhoy (Oct 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you were listening you will have heard KK finish the interview asserting that the government is not being complacent.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't this the guy who The Treasury said recently was well known for making things up?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My point was that efficacy wanes over time and being vaccinated doesn't stop the spread which was the thinking earlier on in the process. Also, the bit you have highlighted is for those that had Pfizer, most of us had AZ so we're spreading it around just as much as the unvaxxed at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

One of my sons colleagues had covid at most a couple of months back. He’s now double vaccinated, but was tested positive two days ago and is again off work, feeling grim and isolating.


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 20, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Seems hard to imagine that, yet again, we’re ignoring mounting case numbers and leaving taking action until it’s too late.
		
Click to expand...

Not really. Boris.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My point was that efficacy wanes over time and being vaccinated doesn't stop the spread which was the thinking earlier on in the process. Also, the bit you have highlighted is for those that had Pfizer, most of us had AZ so *we're spreading it around just as much as the unvaxxed at the moment*.
		
Click to expand...

I don't agree.
Maybe Ethan can confirm or deny that claim


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## DRW (Oct 20, 2021)

Could I be bold and suggest people look for the data for other countries and do their own comparisons, if pretty easy to access :-

Testing :-



Deaths ;-




Not checked this data myself, but how about ICU admissions, that someone I look at on twitter does (if true, thought this was interesting comparison and not what I expected to see) :-





Do people understand what transitioning to Endemicity looks like, well worth reading up on it if you haven't and start educating yourself with it and adjusting your thoughts on risk or even how you live your life and what daily cases numbers are going to be for each day, of every week, of every year for the rest of our lives.........

Think I would rather now, that mass testing is stopped, only test in particular places etc are not made public, was very anti that to start that, but have changed my mind after seeing how people react to them...


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I don't agree.
Maybe Ethan can confirm or deny that claim
		
Click to expand...

Maybe I am reading your article incorrectly but it appears to say that those who had AZ are just as likely to spread Covid as the unvaccinated after 3 months. Pfizer less so. Given that I was double jabbed in June I am in theory as infectious as an unvaccinated at this point in time.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Anymore lockdowns would be pointless, *and only do more damage. *This isn't going away so we need to get used to it.

Shelter the vulnerable and at risk groups if need be, *and let the rest of us get on with life.*
Even many of those considered most at risk aren't doing much, if anything to protect themselves.
		
Click to expand...

For the life of me, I cannot think of more damage than dying. Coupled with seeing loved ones deal with the after effects of a loved one taken away.

I am all for getting on with life but if it means that people wear masks in crowded places what hardship is that.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Could I be bold and suggest people look for the data for other countries and do their own comparisons, if pretty easy to access :-

Testing :-

View attachment 39099

Deaths ;-

View attachment 39100


Not checked this data myself, but how about ICU admissions, that someone I look at on twitter does (if true, thought this was interesting comparison and not what I expected to see) :-

View attachment 39101



Do people understand what transitioning to Endemicity looks like, well worth reading up on it if you haven't and start educating yourself with it and adjusting your thoughts on risk or even how you live your life and what daily cases numbers are going to be for each day, of every week, of every year for the rest of our lives.........

Think I would rather now, that mass testing is stopped, only test in particular places etc are not made public, was very anti that to start that, but have changed my mind after seeing how people react to them...
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, that first graph was exactly the data that I had been looking for. 

It goes to show that the previous chart showing how poorly the UK was doing cannot be used without knowing the testing rates. In that one the UK had 40,000 new cases whereas Germany was on 9,000. However with the testing data, the UK is 13.55 tests per 1,000 whilst Germany is 1.6 tests per 1,000. If Germany increased their testing (along with a lot of other countries on the original graph) to the UK level then it would likely look very different.


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## Banchory Buddha (Oct 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			For the life of me, I cannot think of more damage than dying. Coupled with seeing loved ones deal with the after effects of a loved one taken away.

*I am all for getting on with life but if it means that people wear masks in crowded places what hardship is that*.
		
Click to expand...

This. And the drama around passports. People are dying, it makes almost no difference for you to do this so just do it.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My point was that efficacy wanes over time and being vaccinated doesn't stop the spread which was the thinking earlier on in the process. Also, the bit you have highlighted is for those that had Pfizer, most of us had AZ so we're spreading it around just as much as the unvaxxed at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

Antibody levels wane after time, as they do for every infection and vaccination. This is not news nor a matter of particular concern. 

Immune memory is the longer lasting form of immunity. This is essentially like beefing up security for an imminent threat, then standing them down after a period of time but keeping them on alert. 

Immune memory can confer life-long immunity, but this appears unlikely with Covid. Immune memory is weaker in older people and some of those with other immune disorders. These people probably need boosters. 

The epidemiological evidence on efficacy waning needs to also be considered in the context of populations and changing risk circumstances. The first people vaccinated were a combination also those most likely to have a weaker response, and to lose immunity, but also healthcare workers. The former group are both most likely to lose immunity but are also the easiest to be tipped over into an admission due to an infection that a youndger person would get through at home. That trend may not continue as waves of "better" candidates come through. Also, risk of reinfection changes with external environmental changes. If the population risk rises, so does the risk of reinfection, albeit at a proportionately lower rate. So it is hard to compare the risk now with the risk then and simply conclude that the efficacy is waning. 

It is true that AZ confers a lower level of durable protection. This is why the Govt has dropped it from the booster strategy, but also why the booster stagey covers all ages and not just, as they do elsewhere, older and higher risk people. 

However, it is untrue, as I pointed out above, that AZ-vaxxed people are spreading it just as much as unvaxed people. AZ confers decent protection against infection but also transmission. If you become infected, you can spread it, but there is very good evidence that puts it beyond and scientific doubt AZ-vaxed people are definitely and demonstrably at lower risk of doing so than unvaxed people.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Could I be bold and suggest people look for the data for other countries and do their own comparisons, if pretty easy to access :-

Testing :-

View attachment 39099

Click to expand...

That's useful.

So roughly speaking, we are testing twice as many people as France and 3 times as many as Italy and Spain. Unfortunately our confirmed cases are 10 times that of France, and 20 times that of Italy and Spain.

It also worth bearing in mind that a lot of tests would be for suspected cases, so if our confirmed rates are 10 or 20 times that of our neighbours, you would expect our testing numbers to be higher as we would have proportionally more suspected cases.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Could I be bold and suggest people look for the data for other countries and do their own comparisons, if pretty easy to access :-

Testing :-

View attachment 39099

Deaths ;-

View attachment 39100


Not checked this data myself, but how about ICU admissions, that someone I look at on twitter does (if true, thought this was interesting comparison and not what I expected to see) :-

View attachment 39101



Do people understand what transitioning to Endemicity looks like, well worth reading up on it if you haven't and start educating yourself with it and adjusting your thoughts on risk or even how you live your life and what daily cases numbers are going to be for each day, of every week, of every year for the rest of our lives.........

Think I would rather now, that mass testing is stopped, only test in particular places etc are not made public, was very anti that to start that, but have changed my mind after seeing how people react to them...
		
Click to expand...

I agree, partially, with your general point that high levels of testing are not necessarily very informative, especially LFT testing. 

But if you look at your graphs, the first one (tests) has UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain. The second one (deaths) doesn't have any of those apart from the UK, but has Romania, North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Lithuania. The testing numbers would be more understandable if the graph included the same countries. Europe is listed, close in numbers to the UK. If we consider that there are high rates of death in Romania, Bulgaria and so on, it seems reasonable to infer that the average European rate must therefore have rates lower than the UK in some of the other non-eastern European countries, wouldn't you say? Reports from near neighbours in Europe do not report the same levels of admission or death as in the UK. On ICU numbers, Germany (and most other Western European countries) has considerably greater provision of ICU than the UK, so they have a lower br to admission to ICU and therefore have more capacity to admit people earlier than they would in the UK. They are not like for like comparisons.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			For the life of me, I cannot think of more damage than dying. Coupled with seeing loved ones deal with the after effects of a loved one taken away.

I am all for getting on with life but if it means that people wear masks in crowded places what hardship is that.
		
Click to expand...

People die. It's what we do best. 

Sorry, but people seem to have forgotten about all the other reasons people die, thousands of them every day. Covid is just another thing to add to the list. 

Lockdowns don't work. The people we locked down to protect have gone back to life as normal. Those who should have been wearing masks have special lanyards to exempt themselves. 

Meanwhile our children continue to receive a sub standard education, many have anxiety they didn't have before. People are losing their jobs, there is a massive cost that is being kicked down the road that future generations will have to pay for. 

Most of the people looking for further restrictions apear to be the ones who it will have the least effect on. No job or mortgage to worry about, and won't have to pay in the long term. 

Can someone tell me what the endgame is? Because I can't see one....


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## DRW (Oct 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			For the life of me, I cannot think of more damage than dying. Coupled with seeing loved ones deal with the after effects of a loved one taken away.

I am all for getting on with life but if it means that people wear masks in crowded places what hardship is that.
		
Click to expand...

Do you think Masks are the answer to what you say ?

I wonder where public health messaging has gone wrong, if you seriously think that is the answer tbh

By all means go and get some proper face fitted N99 masks, if you dont want to catch covid. I wear N99 whenever I must go into somewhere for example.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Thank you, that first graph was exactly the data that I had been looking for.

It goes to show that the previous chart showing how poorly the UK was doing cannot be used without knowing the testing rates. In that one the UK had 40,000 new cases whereas Germany was on 9,000. However with the testing data, the UK is 13.55 tests per 1,000 whilst Germany is 1.6 tests per 1,000. If Germany increased their testing (along with a lot of other countries on the original graph) to the UK level then it would likely look very different.
		
Click to expand...

Funny how you picked Germany out, and ignored France, Spain and Italy where the ratio of tests to cases is massively better than ours.

Re the point about the low number of tests in Germany, it's worth bearing in mind that we are routinely testing a large number of people with no symptoms (eg school and NHS workers) so you would expect a low hit rate for them. The German numbers suggest they are not routinely testing key workers to anything like the same extent. If the Germans are mainly testing suspected cases rather than non-symptomatic ones, you would expect their ratio of tests to cases to be high.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Meanwhile our children continue to receive a sub standard education, many have anxiety they didn't have before.
		
Click to expand...

Was listening to a phone in the other day, a lady rang in to say her 16yr old niece was now too scared to leave the home due to the risk of Covid. That's horrendous to think that a healthy 16yr old has become that scared of a virus that carried (largely speaking) no risk or her. Obviously this is an extreme case but I would imagine not isolated and we have to get the message across to these types of people that they are safe, they need to get back to normal and it's those at risk that we need to take the precautions and be protected.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Funny how you picked Germany out, and ignored France, Spain and Italy where the ratio of tests to cases is massively better than ours.

Re the point about the low number of tests in Germany, it's worth bearing in mind that we are routinely testing a large number of people with no symptoms (eg school and NHS workers) so you would expect a low hit rate for them. The German numbers suggest they are not routinely testing key workers to anything like the same extent. If the Germans are mainly testing suspected cases rather than non-symptomatic ones, you would expect their ratio of tests to cases to be high.
		
Click to expand...

Okay, sorry....

Spain 1.52 
France 7.3
Italy 5.91

I wouldn't call that massively better.


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Maybe I am reading your article incorrectly but it appears to say that those who had AZ are just as likely to spread Covid as the unvaccinated after 3 months. Pfizer less so. Given that I was double jabbed in June I am in theory as infectious as an unvaccinated at this point in time.
		
Click to expand...

It's a really important question because if you're right then vaccine passports would be pointless.
What I see is
1. if you are vaccinated, you are less likely to die from Covid
2. if you are vaccinated, you are less likely to be hospitalized
3. if you are vaccinated, you are less likely to become infected 
4. if you are vaccinated, you are less likely to infect others
5. if you are vaccinated, you will be infectious for less time.
6. if you are *un-vaccinated*, the opposite applies.

If the powers that be decide that entry to certain place will be dependent on having a vaccine passport then I'll be first in the queue.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			People die. It's what we do best.

Sorry, but people seem to have forgotten about all the other reasons people die, thousands of them every day. Covid is just another thing to add to the list.

Lockdowns don't work. The people we locked down to protect have gone back to life as normal. Those who should have been wearing masks have special lanyards to exempt themselves.

Meanwhile our children continue to receive a sub standard education, many have anxiety they didn't have before. People are losing their jobs, there is a massive cost that is being kicked down the road that future generations will have to pay for.

Most of the people looking for further restrictions apear to be the ones who it will have the least effect on. No job or mortgage to worry about, and won't have to pay in the long term.

*Can someone tell me what the endgame is? Because I can't see one....*

Click to expand...


That's the thing, isn't it? We've had 3 lockdowns, Covid is still here. Cases are rising again. So we need to accept that lockdowns won't solve Covid. They are however effective for stopping the NHS being overrun, but are massively damaging to the economy. So will we see more lockdowns? Depends on what our leaders see as the priority.


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## DRW (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I agree, partially, with your general point that high levels of testing are not necessarily very informative, especially LFT testing.

But if you look at your graphs, the first one (tests) has UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain. The second one (deaths) doesn't have any of those apart from the UK, but has Romania, North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Lithuania. The testing numbers would be more understandable if the graph included the same countries. Europe is listed, close in numbers to the UK. If we consider that there are high rates of death in Romania, Bulgaria and so on, it seems reasonable to infer that the average European rate must therefore have rates lower than the UK in some of the other non-eastern European countries, wouldn't you say? Reports from near neighbours in Europe do not report the same levels of admission or death as in the UK. On ICU numbers, Germany (and most other Western European countries) has considerably greater provision of ICU than the UK, so they have a lower br to admission to ICU and therefore have more capacity to admit people earlier than they would in the UK. They are not like for like comparisons.
		
Click to expand...

The graphs I posted on testing/deaths weren't meant to be compared, in fact I made sure they could not be, tbh  I suggested people look for themselves and I hope it would mean people would ask questions and go look for themselves, people need to, as there are far to many unanswered questions over this period. What about the at home excess deaths figures, is one such example

Media want clicks on websites and everyone have their agendas. Covid sells, been proven time and time again, especially to a certain richer/older  part of society, that would tend to be on this website. I am sure you would agree with that......

I have always questioned everything, learn, asks questions and educate yourself.


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## rudebhoy (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Okay, sorry....

Spain 1.52
France 7.3
Italy 5.91

I wouldn't call that massively better.
		
Click to expand...

not sure what those figures are saying, maybe you should show your workings here?


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## bobmac (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Was listening to a phone in the other day, a lady rang in to say her 16yr old niece was now too scared to leave the home due to the risk of Covid. That's horrendous to think that a healthy 16yr old has become that scared of a virus that carried (largely speaking) no risk or her. Obviously this is an extreme case but I would imagine not isolated and we have to get the message across to these types of people that they are safe, they need to get back to normal and it's those at risk that we need to take the precautions and be protected.
		
Click to expand...

Was she vaccinated?


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			not sure what those figures are saying, maybe you should show your workings here?
		
Click to expand...

You said that I had, conveniently, not included the numbers for Spain, France and Italy so I did. Those figures are the numbers being tested per 1,000 in each of the countries.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			People die. It's what we do best.

Sorry, but people seem to have forgotten about all the other reasons people die, thousands of them every day. Covid is just another thing to add to the list.

Lockdowns don't work. The people we locked down to protect have gone back to life as normal. Those who should have been wearing masks have special lanyards to exempt themselves.

Meanwhile our children continue to receive a sub standard education, many have anxiety they didn't have before. People are losing their jobs, there is a massive cost that is being kicked down the road that future generations will have to pay for.

Most of the people looking for further restrictions apear to be the ones who it will have the least effect on. No job or mortgage to worry about, and won't have to pay in the long term.

Can someone tell me what the endgame is? Because I can't see one....
		
Click to expand...

The endgame should have been strong, swift and effective control and a robust public health response to minimise downtime and casualties. 

A half-arsed lockdown doesn't work very well, a proper one works brilliantly, see New Zealand or Oz. A half-arsed one also only prolongs the economic effects. All those MPs and business figure like Tim Spoons whining about the economy have done more damage to it than was necessary.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Was she vaccinated?
		
Click to expand...

Would that cure her anxiety?


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Was she vaccinated?
		
Click to expand...

Yep, had it as soon as it was made available to her age group.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			The graphs I posted on testing/deaths weren't meant to be compared, in fact I made sure they could not be, tbh  I suggested people look for themselves and I hope it would mean people would ask questions and go look for themselves, people need to, as there are far to many unanswered questions over this period. What about the at home excess deaths figures, is one such example

Media want clicks on websites and everyone have their agendas. Covid sells, been proven time and time again, especially to a certain richer/older  part of society, that would tend to be on this website. I am sure you would agree with that......

I have always questioned everything, learn, asks questions and educate yourself.
		
Click to expand...

People can't educate themselves with Facebook or in the mainstream media. There is some good material online, for example Devi Sridhar or Christina Pagel's tweets, but knowing how to read and understand data and what some seemingly simple terms mean, takes time and proper education.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			People can't educate themselves with Facebook or in the mainstream media. There is some good material online, for example Devi Sridhar or Christina Pagel's tweets, but knowing how to read and understand data and what some seemingly simple terms mean, takes time and proper education.
		
Click to expand...

Only my opinion but Devi Sridhar is one of the last people I would listen to, if it were up to her we'd be locked up forever whilst she chases the unicorn that is 'zero covid'. She's also been accused of spreading disinformation about vaccines amongst younger people. She's also has no medical qualifications from what I've seen so I she's no better than others at just shouting loudly about things she believes in rather than having anything to back it up.


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## garyinderry (Oct 20, 2021)

Is there any kind of data released on re-infection rates?


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## BiMGuy (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			People can't educate themselves with Facebook or in the mainstream media. There is some good material online, for example Devi Sridhar or Christina Pagel's tweets, but knowing how to read and understand data and what some seemingly simple terms mean, takes time and proper education.
		
Click to expand...

We can't educate ourselves using Facebook. But we can using Twitter? 😂


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## DRW (Oct 20, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			Is there any kind of data released on re-infection rates?
		
Click to expand...


Some good details here(fairly low at the moment, have a read of the whole thread and the enclosed threads) :-

Meaghan Kill 👻🔪🎃☠️ on Twitter: "A friendly reminder that in England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 COVID-19 is still spreading mainly among immune naive people: ENGLAND cases in July: 🚫 98.6% never previously infected 🚫 78.1% were unvaccinated" / Twitter 

Over time, the reinfection rates will grow, with immunity waning and mutations on the virus. Therefore you are likely to catch covid over and over again. Its not what I wished for either.. This is not the measles.

This is how the transition and future life will go.

There is growing evidence (takes time to gain more knowledge) the severe disease will not occur until you are older or iller, when you body/immune system is plop (and things like colds, flu, any virus tbh, can finish you off, have a good life Garyinderry )

Hope that helps.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We can't educate ourselves using Facebook. But we can using Twitter? 😂
		
Click to expand...

My point was to choose people who know what they are talking about and follow them, as they will comment on new clinical papers and offer an expert interpretation. You tend not to get them on FB or Youtube. 

Pagel and Sridhar are quite well known from media appearances and their Twitter accounts are verified and genuine. There are other good sources to whom they will often link. Lots of nutters on Twitter too.


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## DRW (Oct 20, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We can't educate ourselves using Facebook. But we can using Twitter? 😂
		
Click to expand...

CPs on independent sage IIRC and has a certain narrative. So read alot more than just those two twitter accounts.

Twitter is vastly better than Facebook, there is no comparison, unless you are looking at the wrong twitter accounts.

There are some great twitter accounts, providing some really detailed science stuff, links to studies, labs, science based individuals and so  on(certainly enough detail for plebs like me).


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Some good details here(fairly low at the moment, have a read of the whole thread and the enclosed threads) :-

Meaghan Kill 👻🔪🎃☠️ on Twitter: "A friendly reminder that in England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 COVID-19 is still spreading mainly among immune naive people: ENGLAND cases in July: 🚫 98.6% never previously infected 🚫 78.1% were unvaccinated" / Twitter

Over time, the reinfection rates will grow, with immunity waning and mutations on the virus. Therefore you are likely to catch covid over and over again. Its not what I wished for either.. This is not the measles.

This is how the transition and future life will go.

There is growing evidence (takes time to gain more knowledge) the severe disease will not occur until you are older or iller, when you body/immune system is plop (and things like colds, flu, any virus tbh, can finish you off, have a good life Garyinderry )

Hope that helps.
		
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Reinfection rates will grow, but immune responses will improve and the reinfections will, hopefully, eventually become like another version of the common cold. That has happened, to some extent, with flu. We have built up a complicated multi-deimensional immunity to that, and usually (unless there is a new "bad" variant) only those people whose immunity is weak or doesn't last are really at risk.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			CPs on independent sage IIRC and has a certain narrative. So read alot more than just those two twitter accounts.

Twitter is vastly better than Facebook, there is no comparison, unless you are looking at the wrong twitter accounts.

There are some great twitter accounts, providing some really detailed science stuff, links to studies, labs, science based individuals and so  on(certainly enough detail for plebs like me).
		
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I would say that CP has a very conventional public health narrative, as has iSAGE. Who else would you recommend?


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Reinfection rates will grow, but immune responses will improve and the reinfections will, hopefully, eventually become like another version of the common cold. That has happened, to some extent, with flu. We have built up a complicated multi-deimensional immunity to that, and usually (unless there is a new "bad" variant) only those people whose immunity is weak or doesn't last are really at risk.
		
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I was going to ask, even with the waning vaccine immunity, by the time we get to the age (some of us quicker than others) where we are most at risk won't we have built up the required immunity (both natural and vaccinated) that it won't have quite the same devastating affect on the elderly that it has had over the last 18 months or so? I'm 41yrs, by the time I am most at risk I would expect to have had Covid a number of times so I should (in theory) have a better chance of getting through my later years without it being such a worry.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I was going to ask, even with the waning vaccine immunity, by the time we get to the age (some of us quicker than others) where we are most at risk won't we have built up the required immunity (both natural and vaccinated) that it won't have quite the same devastating affect on the elderly that it has had over the last 18 months or so? I'm 41yrs, by the time I am most at risk I would expect to have had Covid a number of times so I should (in theory) have a better chance of getting through my later years without it being such a worry.
		
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Yes, very likely. 

We all have a cumulative immune response to flu now, so the immune system recognises not only previously recognised flu variants but new ones which look like they could be flu. The same will probably happen with Covid over the next number of years. By the time you get to your decrepitude, your immune system will know Covid well. Some of the Covid you will have had resulted in  minor illnesses, like a cold, some asymptomatic like other exposures to the cold, and maybe the odd bad one, a day or three off work. 

With age, our ability to fire up the immune system weakens and that'll happen too. Older people end up in hospital not only because their immune system weakness, but also because they are easier to tip over into being knocked off their feet. An older person who gets a flu or a uninary tract infection, or a minor fall, can often be knocked for 6 where a younger person would shrug it off. 

At the same time, vaccines are becoming more sophisticated, so I would expect that in another 20 years, we will have vaccines which deal with 99% of known Covid strains in one, perhaps combined with flu, RSV and some versions of the common cold as well, a one stop respiratory cocktail.


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## DRW (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I would say that CP has a very conventional public health narrative, as has iSAGE. Who else would you recommend?
		
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Tend to read loads of different ones, some disagreeing with the narrative, as I like to try to look at things from many sides and get different outlooks to challenge myself with. I'm a fairly neutral/central person, so look from right, left, Poor, rich, old, young, labs, scientists, mental health and so on. Love all the science/data learning, wish I had continued it from A levels, missed science based learning, instead studied flipping boring computers at degree and then more boring studying for my job for another 3 years.

Good general ones on covid science and data for covid (that I would generally recommend are, which generally aren't to technical, some verified, some not) :-

Eric Topol (@EricTopol) / Twitter
Prof Francois Balloux (@BallouxFrancois) / Twitter
Trevor Bedford (@trvrb) / Twitter
Muge Cevik (@mugecevik) / Twitter
Meaghan Kill 👻🔪🎃☠️ (@kallmemeg) / Twitter
Stefan Baral (@sdbaral) / Twitter
Andrew L. Croxford (@andrew_croxford) / Twitter
Thomas House (@TAH_Sci) / Twitter
James Ward (@JamesWard73) / Twitter
Florian Krammer (@florian_krammer) / Twitter
Bloom Lab (@jbloom_lab) / Twitter

Read alot of others, some not very active, some the odd times and quite a number of the labs based ones(like bloom above), but probably they are not for most people, as a bit technical and boring for people to read, thats what my wife says.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Tend to read loads of different ones, some disagreeing with the narrative, as I like to try to look at things from many sides and get different outlooks to challenge myself with. I'm a fairly neutral/central person, so look from right, left, Poor, rich, old, young, labs, scientists, mental health and so on. Love all the science/data learning, wish I had continued it from A levels, missed science based learning, instead studied flipping boring computers at degree and then more boring studying for my job for another 3 years.

Good general ones on covid science and data for covid (that I would generally recommend are, which generally aren't to technical, some verified, some not) :-

Eric Topol (@EricTopol) / Twitter
Prof Francois Balloux (@BallouxFrancois) / Twitter
Trevor Bedford (@trvrb) / Twitter
Muge Cevik (@mugecevik) / Twitter
Meaghan Kill 👻🔪🎃☠️ (@kallmemeg) / Twitter
Stefan Baral (@sdbaral) / Twitter
Andrew L. Croxford (@andrew_croxford) / Twitter
Thomas House (@TAH_Sci) / Twitter
James Ward (@JamesWard73) / Twitter
Florian Krammer (@florian_krammer) / Twitter
Bloom Lab (@jbloom_lab) / Twitter

Read alot of others, some not very active, some the odd times and quite a number of the labs based ones(like bloom above), but probably they are not for most people, as a bit technical and boring for people to read, thats what my wife says.

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Some good people there. Of those, not sure about Balloux. Sometimes he does talk something which sounds a bit like his name, especially as he gets further away from his core field of genetics.


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## DanFST (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The endgame should have been strong, swift and effective control and a robust public health response to minimise downtime and casualties.

A half-arsed lockdown doesn't work very well, a proper one works brilliantly, see New Zealand or Oz. A half-arsed one also only prolongs the economic effects. All those MPs and business figure like Tim Spoons whining about the economy have done more damage to it than was necessary.
		
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New Zealand admits it can no longer get rid of coronavirus


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DanFST said:



New Zealand admits it can no longer get rid of coronavirus

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So?

NZ has had 28 deaths in a population a shade over 5 million. If the UK had the same death rate, that would be 369. The UK had 223 yesterday alone.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 20, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			You really think the testing rate is massively higher here than on the continent?

Here are another couple of worrying stats, courtesy of Sky News this morning. No doubt these are equally meaningless in your view - 

The UK now has one of the highest weekly rates of new reported cases in the world, and vaccination rates have fallen behind other European countries.

Data shows that approximately 67% of the population has received two doses of a COVID-19 jab, compared with 75% in Denmark, 79% in Spain and 86% in Portugal.

While the weekly rate of new reported cases stands at 24 per 100,000 people in Spain and 48 per 100,000 people in France, this figure currently stands at 463 per 100,000 people in the UK.
		
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That may be. But why?  As far as I'm aware the second jab has been available for all over 18 for some while now. Adverts etc have urged people to take it up. If a certain number in the populace refuse it, then the percentage figure of jabs given is not down to inefficiency,it's down to the percentage of idiots in that country?.


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## DanFST (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			So?

NZ has had 28 deaths in a population a shade over 5 million. If the UK had the same death rate, that would be 369. The UK had 223 yesterday alone.
		
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Lot's of whataboutery.

Facts are, They had the best process in the world, and Delta still sneaked in. 40% are fully vaccinated, central bank has increased interest rates for the first time in 7 years. 

Their endgame cannot be the best, as they still haven't worked it out, easing of restrictions and opening up of freedoms, whilst having increasing rates. (same as everywhere else in the world)


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## DRW (Oct 20, 2021)

DanFST said:



New Zealand admits it can no longer get rid of coronavirus

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Have you seen whats happening in Australia(and other places like Italy) at the moment, under the name of public health.

I see it as a way to destroy belief in 'public health', the pay back will be into the future. Hope we do not end up with a two tier system, and people end up outside 'society'.  Going to end up with alot of angry people, especially if you can not work/live for example, these are worrying days. Not sure I follow the logic of vaccine passports, just a thing that wont achieve its aims imho.

Its almost like the next 'revolution' will not be on main media as well, surprising what you can watch on Twitter of a lot of people protesting, police actions so on and doesn't even get a mention on the main media.

The exit path for NZ and Australia, was always going to be more dangerous, as they have now got to start accepting covid deaths and cases. That said, upto Delta they have done an amazing job of reducing deaths with Covid tho, excess deaths is a more interesting question.


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## road2ruin (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Its almost like the next 'revolution' will not be on main media as well, surprising what you can watch on Twitter of a lot of people protesting, police actions so on and doesn't even get a mention on the main media.
		
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There has definitely been a decision made by the media not to report the vaccine passport protests. The large protests happening around the world that would definitely have been reported if any other subject and yet been completely ignored by the MSM but are readily available on Twitter.


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## DanFST (Oct 20, 2021)

DRW said:



			Have you seen whats happening in Australia(and other places like Italy) at the moment, under the name of public health.

I see it as a way to destroy belief in 'public health', the pay back will be into the future. Hope we do not end up with a two tier system, and people end up outside 'society'.  Going to end up with alot of angry people, especially if you can not work/live for example, these are worrying days. Not sure I follow the logic of vaccine passports, just a thing that wont achieve its aims imho.
		
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I have no issue with a 2 tier society on this matter, there isn't a single good reason not to have a vaccine. (unless you are physically unable) Ie pregnant etc.

There is a chance it may save someone's life, or keep the person vaccinated from requiring medical care. If people are too selfish to get 2 painless jabs, i'm fine them being kept away from me. If everyone had the same attitude, we would again be seeing thousands of deaths a day from covid, people dying because they can't access other healthcare they need.

I'm not a fan of government intervention, but the economy can't survive without vaccines. The protestors are an annoying loud minority. This is not a gateway 1984 and should that start to happen, I will happily join in protest.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Lot's of whataboutery.

Facts are, They had the best process in the world, and Delta still sneaked in. 40% are fully vaccinated, central bank has increased interest rates for the first time in 7 years.

Their endgame cannot be the best, as they still haven't worked it out, easing of restrictions and opening up of freedoms, whilst having increasing rates. (same as everywhere else in the world)
		
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Not whatabouttery, facts. NZ never claimed they would not see any Covid, but they have seen a lot less than here. It would take a disastrous rise in cases for them to come even close. By any stretch of the imagination, they have done well. They need to catch up on vaccines, but that can be done. They are now coming into their summer, so environmental circumstances are in their favour.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I have no issue with a 2 tier society on this matter, there isn't a single good reason not to have a vaccine. (unless you are physically unable) Ie pregnant etc.

There is a chance it may save someone's life, or keep the person vaccinated from requiring medical care. If people are too selfish to get 2 painless jabs, i'm fine them being kept away from me. If everyone had the same attitude, we would again be seeing thousands of deaths a day from covid, people dying because they can't access other healthcare they need.

I'm not a fan of government intervention, but the economy can't survive without vaccines. The protestors are an annoying loud minority. This is not a gateway 1984 and should that start to happen, I will happily join in protest.
		
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I agree with that statement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I agree with that statement.
		
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Likewise.  Though I can keep my side of the street clean, I can only encourage others to clean theirs…I cannot change people, places and things.


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2021)

I was rather shocked, although sadly less surprised, at the new Covid plan. Winter is coming, flu is a threat, cases are rising and new variants emerging, yet instead of implementing basic public health measures, they are announcing a big deal for some as yet unapproved antivirals? Now, I work in pharma and I love new medicines, but that in an insane and reckless plan. It will end badly.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2021)

Not followed this post a lot, but has anyone mentioned that Morocco has banned flights from the UK. I wonder if other countries would follow.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 21, 2021)

Done, never had Pfizer before


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## Imurg (Oct 21, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Not followed this post a lot, but has anyone mentioned that Morocco has banned flights from the UK. I wonder if other countries would follow.
		
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With our numbers rising it doesn't come as a surprise...other countries will be looking hard.


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 39120


Done, never had Pfizer before
		
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If you are a 2 x AZ recipient, then that Pfizer booster will benefit you.


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## Beezerk (Oct 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If you are a 2 x AZ recipient, then that Pfizer booster will benefit you.
		
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Out of interest, why would that be?


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## pauljames87 (Oct 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If you are a 2 x AZ recipient, then that Pfizer booster will benefit you.
		
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I am indeed. Very happy to have the booster 

Got my flu jab booked as I normally do for couple weeks time


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Out of interest, why would that be?
		
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Because the evidence for vaccine effect waning is greater for AZ than the mRNAs and an mRNA booster kicks effectiveness back up very well. Less gain, if any, for previous mRNA recipients from a booster. I suspect that the difference in UK policy on boosters compared to other countries reflects the higher use of AZ here. 

In general, there is considered to be benefit from mixing vaccine types, as each has a slightly different immune profile and mixing it up broadens your immunity.

The AZ vax is not part of the booster programme, only Pfizer and Moderna. Novavax could be added if approved soon.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2021)

We're getting our flu and Covid booster jabs tonight Thursday, we've have been invited to a pals 70th birthday on Saturday, in the golf club that can seat up to 100.
He's only invited 60 friends mostly older people and hopefully all double jabbed.
My wife's not going, should I go along with 1 of my regular golfing pals, and stay in our own bubble as
we already meet up 2/3  times a week anyway.
Thoughts please.


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## GB72 (Oct 21, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We're getting our flu and Covid booster jabs tonight Thursday, we've have been invited to a pals 70th birthday on Saturday, in the golf club that can seat up to 100.
He's only invited 60 friends mostly older people and hopefully all double jabbed.
My wife's not going, should I go along with 1 of my regular golfing pals, and stay in our own bubble as
we already meet up 2/3  times a week anyway.
Thoughts please.
		
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Part of my decision would depend on why my wife was not going. If she was nervous about going somewhere because of covid, out of respect for that, I would not go as my going imparts almost as much risk on her as her going along as well. If she just did not want to go to the event, i would probably go.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Part of my decision would depend on why my wife was not going. If she was nervous about going somewhere because of covid, out of respect for that, I would not go as my going imparts almost as much risk on her as her going along as well. If she just did not want to go to the event, i would probably go.
		
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The wife doesn't like parties but will go for lunch in a crowded restaurant, she says I can go as long as I'm careful.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Out of interest, why would that be?
		
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Odd you should ask that, i mentioned to Missis T am gonna post that question when I am back from golf. Booster due after Nov 30th. We have had 2 x AZ


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## DanFST (Oct 21, 2021)

Looking at the data.

Cases are predominantly those schoolkids under 20.
Hospitalisations are almost exclusively those over 65. 

What would a plan B include? Stopping schooling again, till those have had chance to get vacced? Decrease of freedoms for over 65's until they have their booster? Vaccine passports seem inevitable, but that doesn't seem like it would solve the real issues. cases and hospitalisations in under 55's (minus kids) seems pretty flat.


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## road2ruin (Oct 21, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Looking at the data.

Cases are predominantly those schoolkids under 20.
Hospitalisations are almost exclusively those over 65.

What would a plan B include? Stopping schooling again, till those have had chance to get vacced? Decrease of freedoms for over 65's until they have their booster? Vaccine passports seem inevitable, but that doesn't seem like it would solve the real issues. cases and hospitalisations in under 55's (minus kids) seems pretty flat.
		
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I think we've reached the point where all they can do is try and lower the age of those who can be vaccinated and see how many parents would be willing to get their child jabbed, I think other countries are looking at 5 years+. It seems apparently that the 6,000,000 or so un-jabbed in the UK aren't going to get jabbed or at least not in enough numbers to make much of a difference so how much further can we go. Schools cannot be closed again as that's far more damaging especially now those in the older age groups and the vulnerable have been jabbed and now being offered the boosters. I think all they can do is put the mask mandate in public places back in place and ask people to WFH where possible but there won't be further lockdowns otherwise what you're saying is that every November or so we're all going to be locked away for a few months.


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## DRW (Oct 21, 2021)

How about doing plan A and speeding up the booster program, like now. We are lagging alot behind the first roll out, data shows, we need to speed this up.

From the Israeli data(that are clearly months ahead of us), that will keep the old people out of hospital, better than any thing else. Vaccines and infections, are what are the end game, hopefully the treatments will get better as well.

Personally, I am fed up of seeing 65+ year olds thinking it is 2019 again just because they have been jabbed, when from the most recent data, if a vaccinated 80 year old gets break though covid, they still have a 1 in 8ish chance of dying(better than about the 1 in 3ish before vaccines tho).  

The harms we are doing to the young is immense they need to be in schools for so many reasons. The young are out future and we should protect the most....


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## GB72 (Oct 21, 2021)

DRW said:



			How about doing plan A and speeding up the booster program, like now. We are lagging alot behind the first roll out, data shows, we need to speed this up.

From the Israeli data(that are clearly months ahead of us), that will keep the old people out of hospital, better than any thing else. Vaccines and infections, are what are the end game, hopefully the treatments will get better as well.

Personally, I am fed up of seeing 65+ year olds thinking it is 2019 again just because they have been jabbed, when from the most recent data, if a vaccinated 80 year old gets break though covid, they still have a 1 in 8ish chance of dying(better than about the 1 in 3ish before vaccines tho).  

The harms we are doing to the young is immense they need to be in schools for so many reasons. The young are out future and we should protect the most....
		
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There is a reasonable point in here in my opinion. Certainly (and this is only down to my experience) the older people I know and the more at risk were the worst at mask wearing when compulsory (I could have taught my cat how to wear a mask over its nose by now and he is not even a clever cat). They were also the first to ditch mask wearing in shops etc where I go but also the first to blame kids, teenagers and everyone else when there is talk of restrictions being increased. There is not much the kids can do about the spread through schools, they have to be there, but there is plenty the other generations can do to limit the impact of that.


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## upsidedown (Oct 21, 2021)

For whatever reason folks aren't coming forward to get their booster jab.
The clinic my wife vaxs at has 500 slots a day and yesterday only 25 had been booked 🙄


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## GB72 (Oct 21, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			For whatever reason folks aren't coming forward to get their booster jab.
The clinic my wife vaxs at has 500 slots a day and yesterday only 25 had been booked 🙄
		
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Wish they would open up the opportunity further. I would be down my nearest site in a heartbeat to get my jab.

Is there any diffence in the booking system this time in that it appears that the first to get their jabs were being told to attend an appointment. Are they having to arrange it themselves now. Are they waiting for a call, text or letter.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			For whatever reason folks aren't coming forward to get their booster jab.
The clinic my wife vaxs at has 500 slots a day and yesterday only 25 had been booked 🙄
		
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😳 25. Flipping eck.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We're getting our flu and Covid booster jabs tonight Thursday, we've have been invited to a pals 70th birthday on Saturday, in the golf club that can seat up to 100.
He's only invited 60 friends mostly older people and hopefully all double jabbed.
My wife's not going, should I go along with 1 of my regular golfing pals, and stay in our own bubble as
we already meet up 2/3  times a week anyway.
Thoughts please.
		
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You can go Billy, but don’t mention here if you arrive with your buddy; see others crowded together, and feel a bit uncomfortable…even though I guess everyone in attendance should be wearing a mask, but you stay 😂 And even if you keep apart with your buddy the big question is…will you leave if mask wearing is not universal in the party or other behaviours make you feel uncomfortable.

But seriously…in my experience in a completely different context, I can go to a party with my wife but if I feel uncomfortable I’ll tell her, she will ask if I want to leave, and if I do we will leave…and you know what…when I have done that nobody has subsequently said they spotted we’d left and asked why.  Not once…maybe they were glad to see me disappear, that is if they’d even spotted we’d turned up 🤣🤣


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## upsidedown (Oct 21, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Wish they would open up the opportunity further. I would be down my nearest site in a heartbeat to get my jab.

Is there any diffence in the booking system this time in that it appears that the first to get their jabs were being told to attend an appointment. Are they having to arrange it themselves now. Are they waiting for a call, text or letter.
		
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Absolutely, me too although I've another 5 weeks to wait for my booster , no idea re booking , they're doing booster and flu


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## Tashyboy (Oct 21, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Absolutely, me too although I've another 5 weeks to wait for my booster , no idea re booking , they're doing booster and flu
		
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I saw on sky before I came to the hospital that the government were making an announcement re the booster vaccinations later today. Don’t know what that is though.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 21, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			For whatever reason folks aren't coming forward to get their booster jab.
The clinic my wife vaxs at has 500 slots a day and yesterday only 25 had been booked 🙄
		
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Tried booking a slot for my dad to get his booster and it says he has to wait for the doctors surgery to contact him, even though it's been over 6 months since he had his second jab. Somewhere the system isn't working properly, with some of those eligible for the booster not getting the invite.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I could have taught my cat how to wear a mask over its nose by now and he is not even a clever cat
		
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I can't tell you how much this has made me chuckle. So true and I now have an image of your cat wearing a mask perfectly looking down in disgust on a person with one below their nose


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2021)

DRW said:



			How about doing plan A and speeding up the booster program, like now. We are lagging alot behind the first roll out, data shows, we need to speed this up.

From the Israeli data(that are clearly months ahead of us), that will keep the old people out of hospital, better than any thing else. Vaccines and infections, are what are the end game, hopefully the treatments will get better as well.

Personally, I am fed up of seeing 65+ year olds thinking it is 2019 again just because they have been jabbed, when from the most recent data, if a vaccinated 80 year old gets break though covid, they still have a 1 in 8ish chance of dying(better than about the 1 in 3ish before vaccines tho).  

The harms we are doing to the young is immense they need to be in schools for so many reasons. The young are out future and we should protect the most....
		
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I think the two focus areas should be:

Unvaccinated: schoolkids, refuseniks etc

Boosters: Over 65s and clinically vulnerable.

Both need to move pronto. Covid passports or similar would help drive efforts. I see no reason to close schools or have meaningful numbers of pupils off school.


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## GB72 (Oct 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I can't tell you how much this has made me chuckle. So true and I now have an image of your cat wearing a mask perfectly looking down in disgust on a person with one below their nose 

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I will see if Arby will oblige with a photo later


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## DRW (Oct 21, 2021)

Hope the real life data keeps up with these kind of reports(showing various boosters and different types of vaccines some have), been a few now  :-

Ash Otter on Twitter: "Nice to see some neutralisation data on 3rd Pfizer (booster) dose. Neutralisation to WT, Beta and Delta all similar, no huge drops against Delta. Hopefully, this is sustained! https://t.co/sp4zlQoDvm https://t.co/E6JDdkqkw2" / Twitter

Massive increases from dose 2 stuff. Shame we don't really understand how it fully links in to protection levels , but nice high numbers. And who doesn't want some extra superhuman boosted powers, get to Upsidedowns cllinic, roll up roll up


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## arnieboy (Oct 21, 2021)

Doctor's surgery texted to tell me to wait for the call,  they advised that it should be before Christmas, I usually do as I am told.


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## Ethan (Oct 21, 2021)

DRW said:



			Hope the real life data keeps up with these kind of reports(showing various boosters and different types of vaccines some have), been a few now  :-

Ash Otter on Twitter: "Nice to see some neutralisation data on 3rd Pfizer (booster) dose. Neutralisation to WT, Beta and Delta all similar, no huge drops against Delta. Hopefully, this is sustained! https://t.co/sp4zlQoDvm https://t.co/E6JDdkqkw2" / Twitter

Massive increases from dose 2 stuff. Shame we don't really understand how it fully links in to protection levels , but nice high numbers. And who doesn't want some extra superhuman boosted powers, get to Upsidedowns cllinic, roll up roll up

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It shows clearly, although unsurprisingly, that antibody levels bounce back after booster, but as you say, it may not be necessary for strong immunity.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 21, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can go Billy, but don’t mention here if you arrive with your buddy; see others crowded together, and feel a bit uncomfortable…even though I guess everyone in attendance should be wearing a mask, but you stay 😂 And even if you keep apart with your buddy the big question is…will you leave if mask wearing is not universal in the party or other behaviours make you feel uncomfortable.

But seriously…in my experience in a completely different context, I can go to a party with my wife but if I feel uncomfortable I’ll tell her, she will ask if I want to leave, and if I do we will leave…and you know what…when I have done that nobody has subsequently said they spotted we’d left and asked why.  Not once…maybe they were glad to see me disappear, that is if they’d even spotted we’d turned up 🤣🤣
		
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Latest party news, there's been 30 cancellations so far , so they'll be plenty of space. Me and my mate have reserved a table for 2 in a secluded corner.


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## chellie (Oct 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Tried booking a slot for my dad to get his booster and it says he has to wait for the doctors surgery to contact him, even though it's been over 6 months since he had his second jab. Somewhere the system isn't working properly, with some of those eligible for the booster not getting the invite.
		
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Have you tried booking using this link https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...ter-dose-of-the-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine/

Also, see if there are "pop up " sites nearby as you can just turn up at those.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58999796

Cases over 50k now 

Highest it’s been for a while I suspect it’s going to keep going up 

Heard we have the highest infection rates at the moment 

It’s not going to harm people by bringing in some levels of restrictions- social distancing again , face masks , work from home etc


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## road2ruin (Oct 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not going to harm people by bringing in some levels of restrictions- social distancing again , face masks , work from home etc
		
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Got no problems with masks or the WFH however what would you mean by a reintroduction of social distancing? Reason I ask is that if it were brought back in and therefore require public premises to start limited numbers it'd be the end for many of those working in hospitality for example, they just cannot function if the 1m+ rule etc is brought back in. Personally I don't think it would be brought in for that exact reason and the issues it'd cause however I've still seen many calling for it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Got no problems with masks or the WFH however what would you mean by a reintroduction of social distancing? Reason I ask is that if it were brought back in and therefore require public premises to start limited numbers it'd be the end for many of those working in hospitality for example, they just cannot function if the 1m+ rule etc is brought back in. Personally I don't think it would be brought in for that exact reason and the issues it'd cause however I've still seen many calling for it.
		
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Doesn’t have to be in all areas - for example- went to fill up the car , they used to have a one in at system and 6 in the garage at time  , go back to that , plus one way systems , pre bookings etc


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58999796

Cases over 50k now

Highest it’s been for a while I suspect it’s going to keep going up

Heard we have the highest infection rates at the moment

*It’s not going to harm people by bringing in some levels of restrictions*- social distancing again , *face masks *, work from home etc
		
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Why bother?  I went to the game last night, used the tube where wearing a mask is a condition of travel.  At a rough count 80% of passengers weren't wearing them.  There's no point in introducing restrictions if they aren't going to be enforced.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Latest party news, there's been 30 cancellations so far , so they'll be plenty of space. Me and my mate have reserved a table for 2 in a secluded corner. 

Click to expand...

Safe…And you be able to gaze dreamily into each other’s eyes…no hold on, its you and your mate not your missus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Why bother?  I went to the game last night, used the tube where wearing a mask is a condition of travel.  At a rough count 80% of passengers weren't wearing them.  There's no point in introducing restrictions if they aren't going to be enforced.
		
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Public pressure would enforce?…and wasn’t one of the reasons for delaying the first lockdown that the politicians and  experts were doubtful that the UK public would put up with it for more than a few weeks…and look what happened.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Public pressure would enforce?*…and wasn’t one of the reasons for delaying the first lockdown that the politicians and  experts were doubtful that the UK public would put up with it for more than a few weeks…and look what happened.
		
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Clearly not when the tube is emblazoned with stickers telling you it's compulsory and the vast majority stick two fingers up to it.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 21, 2021)

I got really narked at the number of non mask wearers in Aldi today. Add to that the ones who thought it ok to cough all over the flipping place and keep toing back and forth along the aisles so avoiding them was difficult. I know the mask is to protect others but I also feel a sense of it protecting me a bit at least...

Where is the social conscience? Why do we need the government to make it law for us to do what is surely the right thing...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2021)

Did not sleep well last night and have spent all day in bed - well other than the two times I visited the great white telephone…aching, headache, nauseous…the same symptoms as my Mrs who’s PCR test has come back negative.  o sniffles so not sure if cold or flu. 

But whatever, I’m not usually clobbered by such things as I was today, so perhaps indicative of a loss of immunity due to lockdowns and other social distancing measures.  Suggests if a bad flu hits the country it could be grim for hospitals.

Anyway - got my flu jag early next week.  I never usually bother but this year I will.


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## fundy (Oct 21, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did not sleep well last night and have spent all day in bed - well other than the two times I visited the great white telephone…aching, headache, nauseous…the same symptoms as my Mrs who’s PCR test has come back negative.  o sniffles so not sure if cold or flu. 

But whatever, I’m not usually clobbered by such things as I was today, so perhaps indicative of a loss of immunity due to lockdowns and other social distancing measures.  Suggests if a bad flu hits the country it could be grim for hospitals.

Anyway - got my flu jag early next week.  I never usually bother but this year I will.
		
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hope you get better soon but based on a sample size of 1, that may or may not be flu, you summize that the bad flu could be grim for hospitals. Sensationalist bs much?


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## funkycoldmedina (Oct 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Reinfection rates will grow, but immune responses will improve and the reinfections will, hopefully, eventually become like another version of the common cold. That has happened, to some extent, with flu. We have built up a complicated multi-deimensional immunity to that, and usually (unless there is a new "bad" variant) only those people whose immunity is weak or doesn't last are really at risk.
		
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This for me is the end game. How far along this path we have to get before we can't look at 'just living with it' I'm unsure of. It will certainly be accelerated with development of complex new boosters etc.

We've given ourselves a great base with the vaccines but that's all we have so far.


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## chellie (Oct 21, 2021)

Find a walk in site here https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/find-a-walk-in-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-site


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 21, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Did not sleep well last night and have spent all day in bed - well other than the two times I visited the great white telephone…aching, headache, nauseous…the same symptoms as my Mrs who’s PCR test has come back negative.  o sniffles so not sure if cold or flu.

But whatever, I’m not usually clobbered by such things as I was today, so perhaps indicative of a loss of immunity due to lockdowns and other social distancing measures.  Suggests if a bad flu hits the country it could be grim for hospitals.

Anyway - got my flu jag early next week.  I never usually bother but this year I will.
		
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I've found that with the two colds I've had in the last six weeks. First one brought home by younger son, second one by older son but been hit harder than I can ever remember being previously. Negative LFT and PCR tests both times. I guess it's just because my immune system has been so sheltered for the past 18 months with lockdown, masks and social distancing that it takes a while for it to get back up to speed.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Suggests if a bad flu hits the country it could be grim for hospitals.
		
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Especially if they are already full of anti-vaxxers.



funkycoldmedina said:



*We've given ourselves a great base with the vaccines* but that's all we have so far.
		
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And what a monumental achievement that was.

I've always said doctors and nurses do a brilliant job and will save 1,000s of lives but it's the scientists, volunteers and the vaccine that will save millions. It's just a shame a small portion of society have decided to ignore Science and instead follow the experts on Facebook and are refusing the life saving, readily available, free, approved and safe vaccine.  😞


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Especially if they are already full of anti-vaxxers.



And what a monumental achievement that was.

I've always said doctors and nurses do a brilliant job and will save 1,000s of lives but it's the scientists, volunteers and the vaccine that will save millions. It's just a shame a small portion of society have decided to ignore Science and instead follow the experts on Facebook and are refusing the life saving, readily available, free, approved and safe vaccine.  😞
		
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The basic levels of pandemic control are usually, in order of decreasing effectiveness:

1. Simple public health measures - in this case masks, social distancing, hand-washing, working from home etc
2. Specific preventive interventions - vaccinations
3. Remedial treatments - antivirals, horse dewormers, whatever
4. Crossing your fingers and hoping it all works out

The current strategy has essentially abandoned number 1. The UK has done a good, but not as good as it could have done, job on 2 - the NHS has responded great, but as I said before, there has been an over reliance on AZ, and that has now necessitated a wider booster strategy than in countries which used mRNAs. AZ has been quietly forgotten. Number 3 is the main headline of the recently announced strategy. This is crazy, in my view, and fraught with problems. As a result, we are also relying on number 4 rather more than we should. 

I agree that scientists have done a great job. The teams at Oxford and BioNTech, in particular, have made a huge difference, although the latter have received little credit in the UK. I will be at a conference with one of the BioNTech founders in a couple of weeks. The volunteers have been great too, and that has included a lot of time given by current and retired doctors in the vaccination effort.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

I saw a documentary about how the vaccine was developed so quickly and how many of the staff worked massive hours for months on end to save as many lives as possible. Then to have some people say ''Nah, don't want it/it's not safe/it's untested/it's too quick etc must be so frustrating.
Panorama, the race for the Vaccine is still on BBC i PLAYER


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

It’s also worth remembering there will be plenty of people with valid concerns about the vaccine and it’s affects 

Whilst it’s a small amount there are people who have had adverse reactions to the vaccine and there is no guarantee it’s 100% safe 

I know there are pregnant ladies , ladies looking to get pregnant etc who haven’t had the vaccine because of the unknown effects it could have on unborn babies or fertility.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know there are pregnant ladies , ladies looking to get pregnant etc who haven’t had the vaccine because of the unknown effects it could have on unborn babies or fertility.
		
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_''There's no evidence the COVID-19 vaccines have any effect on your chances of becoming pregnant.''_

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rtility-and-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination/


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''There's no evidence the COVID-19 vaccines have any effect on your chances of becoming pregnant.''_

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...rtility-and-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination/

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No “evidence” is the key phrase , it’s also a vaccine that’s only been around for what 12 months - can you really say to a pregnant lady or someone trying to have a baby that in that short period there will be zero affects on an unborn or any potential fertility

It’s a very new vaccine and it will be in circulation for a long time and only then will people be able have full confidence in it - and for it to be claimed to be safe to all


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s also worth remembering there will be plenty of people with valid concerns about the vaccine and it’s affects 

Whilst it’s a small amount there are people who have had adverse reactions to the vaccine and there is no guarantee it’s 100% safe 

I know there are pregnant ladies , ladies looking to get pregnant etc who haven’t had the vaccine because of the unknown effects it could have on unborn babies or fertility.
		
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You having the flu vaccine?   
There is no guarantee that any medicine is 100% safe.
However, people can choose......but ,if up to me, their choice would involve restrictions on what they could do.
Too much talk of rights, and not enough about responsibilities.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You having the flu vaccine?  
There is no guarantee that any medicine is 100% safe.
However, people can choose......but ,if up to me, their choice would involve restrictions on what they could do.
Too much talk of rights, and not enough about responsibilities.
		
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Yes I will have the flu vaccine just like I have done every year.

Would you be as flippant to the mother whose baby is born with a defect because of the vaccine ? 

People need to understand that others have differing circumstances to them - and it’s not just because they are scared of bill gates controlling them.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			can you really say to a pregnant lady or someone trying to have a baby that in that short period there will be zero affects on an unborn or any potential fertility
		
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Of course not, I'm not qualified to give any advice.
But you've got to make your own decisions by talking to people who are.
The NHS is a good place to start (link above)

How about BUPA?
If you're trying for a baby, there is nothing in the current UK government guidance to say that you shouldn't have a COVID-19 vaccine.
https://www.bupa.co.uk/newsroom/ourviews/covid-affect-fertility

“There is no plausible reason — no medical or scientific mechanism — for this vaccine to interact with a woman’s reproductive organs or have any interaction with an egg that’s been released or fertilized.” 

“While studies are ongoing, there is no data that the COVID-19 vaccines may cause infertility and no credible scientific theories for how the COVID-19 vaccine may cause female infertility,”
“Pregnant women get sicker when they get COVID compared to other people their age, and pregnant people with COVID are more likely to experience preterm delivery,” Morris said. “The effect of COVID disease on pregnancy is real, and it’s important to prevent.”

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/does-covid-19-vaccine-affect-fertility-heres-what-experts-say

Currently no evidence shows that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, cause fertility problems (problems trying to get pregnant) in women or men.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html

 The science shows COVID vaccines have no effect on fertility, do not impact the chance of a miscarriage, and are safe and effective while pregnant. 
https://theconversation.com/no-covid-19-vaccines-dont-affect-womens-fertility-168568


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## road2ruin (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Of course not, I'm not qualified to give any advice.
But you've got to make your own decisions by talking to people who are.
The NHS is a good place to start (link above)

How about BUPA?
If you're trying for a baby, there is nothing in the current UK government guidance to say that you shouldn't have a COVID-19 vaccine.
https://www.bupa.co.uk/newsroom/ourviews/covid-affect-fertility

“There is no plausible reason — no medical or scientific mechanism — for this vaccine to interact with a woman’s reproductive organs or have any interaction with an egg that’s been released or fertilized.”

“While studies are ongoing, there is no data that the COVID-19 vaccines may cause infertility and no credible scientific theories for how the COVID-19 vaccine may cause female infertility,”
“Pregnant women get sicker when they get COVID compared to other people their age, and pregnant people with COVID are more likely to experience preterm delivery,” Morris said. “The effect of COVID disease on pregnancy is real, and it’s important to prevent.”

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/does-covid-19-vaccine-affect-fertility-heres-what-experts-say

Currently no evidence shows that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, cause fertility problems (problems trying to get pregnant) in women or men.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html

The science shows COVID vaccines have no effect on fertility, do not impact the chance of a miscarriage, and are safe and effective while pregnant.
https://theconversation.com/no-covid-19-vaccines-dont-affect-womens-fertility-168568

Click to expand...

The problem about the pregnancy issue is that even amongst the medical professionals (particularly midwives) there is still conflicting information. You only have to listen to radio phone ins on the subject with pregnant ladies who were told early on by their doctor not to have it and so when they're now told that it's safe they still have reservations. Others have been told by midwives that they wouldn't take it and so they don't. Even when the evidence showed that, on balance, it was save for pregnant women there was still mixed messaging going on and you really cannot blame some people for not being sold on the idea.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			You only have to listen to radio phone ins on the subject with pregnant ladies* who were told early on* by their doctor not to have it and so when they're now told that it's safe they still have reservations.
		
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19th Aug 2021
The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) which is the professional association of pregnancy, childbirth, and women's reproductive and sexual health says that there is “no evidence” to suggest that the Covid-19 vaccines affect fertility. Similar statements have been issued by the British Fertility Association, the NHS and Public Health England.


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## road2ruin (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			19th Aug 2021
The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) which is the professional association of pregnancy, childbirth, and women's reproductive and sexual health says that there is “no evidence” to suggest that the Covid-19 vaccines affect fertility. Similar statements have been issued by the British Fertility Association, the NHS and Public Health England.
		
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You're quoting official advice however I'm telling you what I am listening to on the radio by pregnant women who are calling in to 5Live/LBC to explain why they are not getting jabbed. They were given information that the jab wasn't advisable and this was by their doctor/midwife and so when they're now told that it is safe they just aren't convinced enough. You may not think that's rational however a lot of pregnant women aren't completely rational (mine wasn't for large parts) and they'll do anything to keep their unborn baby safe and so when they're told something isn't safe but then is safe some will still err on the side of caution and not risk it. You can keep putting links up to say that it's safe but that obviously isn't getting through to a lot in that particular segment phoning these radio stations.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Of course not, I'm not qualified to give any advice.
But you've got to make your own decisions by talking to people who are.
The NHS is a good place to start (link above)

How about BUPA?
If you're trying for a baby, there is nothing in the current UK government guidance to say that you shouldn't have a COVID-19 vaccine.
https://www.bupa.co.uk/newsroom/ourviews/covid-affect-fertility

“There is no plausible reason — no medical or scientific mechanism — for this vaccine to interact with a woman’s reproductive organs or have any interaction with an egg that’s been released or fertilized.”

*“While studies are ongoing, *there is no data that the COVID-19 vaccines may cause infertility and no credible scientific theories for how the COVID-19 vaccine may cause female infertility,”
“Pregnant women get sicker when they get COVID compared to other people their age, and pregnant people with COVID are more likely to experience preterm delivery,” Morris said. “The effect of COVID disease on pregnancy is real, and it’s important to prevent.”

https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/does-covid-19-vaccine-affect-fertility-heres-what-experts-say

Currently no evidence shows that any vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines, cause fertility problems (problems trying to get pregnant) in women or men.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/planning-for-pregnancy.html

The science shows COVID vaccines have no effect on fertility, do not impact the chance of a miscarriage, and are safe and effective while pregnant.
https://theconversation.com/no-covid-19-vaccines-dont-affect-womens-fertility-168568

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“whilst studies are ongoing”

Long way to go for people to be fully confident - unless you are in their situation then it’s going to be very hard to judge someone when a vaccine has been in play for such a short time.

it’s also worth remembering that I don’t believe there were many pregnant ladies included within clinical trials

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2114466

“However, safety data on Covid-19 vaccination during pregnancy remain limited”

Right now studies are showing it’s safe but there is a long way to go

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....2021/oct/05/pregnant-women-not-taking-vaccine


it’s got to be very hard for a mother to take the vaccine right now

Understand that every single person has a different situation and outlook and reasons

There have been many cases in the past where initial studies have shown one thing and then later in life issues show up 

Unless you can tell a pregnant lady that the vaccine is 100% safe for them then some will always have doubts


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would you be as flippant to the mother whose baby is born with a defect because of the vaccine ?
		
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How many cases of babies born with a defect because of the vaccine do you know of?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			19th Aug 2021
The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) which is the professional association of pregnancy, childbirth, and women's reproductive and sexual health says that there is “no evidence” to suggest that the Covid-19 vaccines affect fertility. Similar statements have been issued by the British Fertility Association, the NHS and Public Health England.
		
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I can imagine there's a huge difference between affecting fertility and affecting pregnancy in the minds of ladies looking to start a family.


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## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many cases of babies born with a defect because of the vaccine do you know of?
		
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Can you not understand that some women will have a genuine concern regarding the vaccine? Whether you agree with them or not, they have concerns and are choosing to wait. We can probably all agree that there are other demographics that deserve our attention long before pregnant women!

As an aside, my wife is a Nurse. Specialising in pediatrics. Our main topic of conversation this week is regarding whether or not our 13yr old daughter should have the vaccine. I was for it. My wife was 50/50. Discussions like this are happening all over the country. I know several of my daughter's friends aren't having the jab. I may not agree with their decision, but I'm not going to tell them they're wrong as the decision is theirs to make and I understand their concerns...


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## road2ruin (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many cases of babies born with a defect because of the vaccine do you know of?
		
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Bob, I think you're missing the point on this one IMO. I haven't heard of any babies that have been born with defects due to the vaccine however the feedback amongst pregnant women is that they've been told my medical professionals that the vaccine isn't advisable for them. Just because this advice then changes further down the line doesn't make the suddenly feel better in a lot of cases so they just don't risk it. These aren't women who have been getting advice off Facebook etc, these are ladies who were told by their GP/Midwife not to take it so can you really blame them for not being convinced when they're suddenly told it's okay to?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How many cases of babies born with a defect because of the vaccine do you know of?
		
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Can you really not see any concerns that a pregnant lady could have right now ? A vaccine that has only been in play since Jan ? Do you really think that’s long enough for the full affects of it all to be known for every single case ?


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

A bunch of men arguing about what women should do with their bodies when considering/having a baby.
The bottom line is it's their decision.
I only hope that they make that vital decision based on the most up to date scientific data they can find and let's all hope mother and baby do well.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Bob, I think you're missing the point on this one IMO. I haven't heard of any babies that have been born with defects due to the vaccine however the feedback amongst pregnant women is that they've been told my medical professionals that the vaccine isn't advisable for them. Just because this advice then changes further down the line doesn't make the suddenly feel better in a lot of cases so they just don't risk it. These aren't women who have been getting advice off Facebook etc, these are ladies who were told by their GP/Midwife not to take it so can you really blame them for not being convinced when they're suddenly told it's okay to?
		
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Yes I totally see the point you are making here. It is valid .

Of course , I can see too where the midwife would not say it is safe to have the vaccine.  But that is not saying " it may be unsafe to take  the vaccine."
This is a matter of precise English, possibly.
If you were a Dr or midwife, early on in the vaccine programme, and your lady patient asked you, e.g. "If I take this vaccine can you say it's is definitely not going to be risky for my baby if I am pregnant?"
No Dr or midwife can or would say yes to that. Because they would be held to that.
They would say they weren't vaccine experts, but to listen to what the vaccine experts advise.
That is not the same as answering, " I am advising not to take it." 
Or 'it might not be safe to take it'

But , I can see, if a lady thinks her Dr is hesitant about it, then that becomes a doubt.


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## DRW (Oct 22, 2021)

Does anyone know why this would be the case(probably ethan is maybe the only one, failing that will have a hunt later, thanks if anyone knows) :-

To quote
'recent observations from UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) surveillance data that N antibody levels appear to be lower in individuals who acquire infection following 2 doses of vaccination. '

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 42 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

Is this down to effectively the 'original sin' with immune system, I do appreciated that the antibodies we have get more mature/are the better ones over time and also there is alot more to the immune system than just antibodies). 

It just doesn't sound good for obtaining a far better rounded immune response to infection after vaccination, if we aren't getting N ones as well ?


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s also worth remembering there will be plenty of people with valid concerns about the vaccine and it’s affects

Whilst it’s a small amount there are people who have had adverse reactions to the vaccine and there is no guarantee it’s 100% safe

I know there are pregnant ladies , ladies looking to get pregnant etc who haven’t had the vaccine because of the unknown effects it could have on unborn babies or fertility.
		
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A worrying number of those younger people in hospitals and ICU with Covid are those pregnant ladies. There is no guarantee that the vaccine is safe, but equally there is no plausible or demonstrated effect that it should pose a risk. mRNA does not cross the placenta. 

There is excellent evidence that Covid is bad for pregnant ladies and their fetuses.


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## GB72 (Oct 22, 2021)

Interesting to see a story that fully vaccinated for getting a vaccine passport may well include those who are elegible having all 3 jabs. Hopefully a further incentive.


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## D-S (Oct 22, 2021)

I see that case rates in Wales are amongst in the highest yet I think they have a mask mandate indoors? Is this a case of non compliance? (only popped over there once in the last few months so have no evidence).


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

A word on safety in clinical in clinical trials. It is impossible to prove a negative. Nobody can ever prove that there is no risk.

Safety assessment is about probability. We saw X% of people had headaches in the vaccine group, X% in the placebo group, unlikely to be a vaccine-related effect on headache.

The problem comes when there is a rare event, because the statistical comparison is more difficult. One case of something obscure in one group, compared 2 or 3 cases in the other is more difficult to interpret.

Safety assessment is complicated and the correct approach is to consider benefit-risk, to the individual usually, but a degree of societal benefit too is usually considered for vaccines.


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

DRW said:



			Does anyone know why this would be the case(probably ethan is maybe the only one, failing that will have a hunt later, thanks if anyone knows) :-

To quote
'recent observations from UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) surveillance data that N antibody levels appear to be lower in individuals who acquire infection following 2 doses of vaccination. '

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 42 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

Is this down to effectively the 'original sin' with immune system, I do appreciated that the antibodies we have get more mature/are the better ones over time and also there is alot more to the immune system than just antibodies).

It just doesn't sound good for obtaining a far better rounded immune response to infection after vaccination, if we aren't getting N ones as well ?
		
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N antibodies reflect natural infection. I would take that quoted statement to mean that in people who are vaccinated, and subsequently get natural infection, a separate "natural" antibody response is less likely to be triggered, or is triggered at a lower alert level, because the immune system recognises there is already an effective defence in place.


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Bob, I think you're missing the point on this one IMO. I haven't heard of any babies that have been born with defects due to the vaccine however the feedback amongst pregnant women is that they've been told my medical professionals that the vaccine isn't advisable for them. Just because this advice then changes further down the line doesn't make the suddenly feel better in a lot of cases so they just don't risk it. These aren't women who have been getting advice off Facebook etc, these are ladies who were told by their GP/Midwife not to take it so can you really blame them for not being convinced when they're suddenly told it's okay to?
		
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Medical professionals? Do you mean doctors? I doubt many doctors are saying that, because they are, to put it simply, wrong.

Midwives, maybe. They sometimes harbour traditional but wrong ideas about their chosen area of work - old midwives tales, if you like - but are not in a position to advise on vaccinations and should not be offering a view.


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## DanFST (Oct 22, 2021)

Still unsure about masks where food and drink is concerned. 

Watched a bit on the news in Belgium saying how good they were, present your pass then get a drink. Followed by taking the mask off to drink your beer, seems redundant.


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Still unsure about masks where food and drink is concerned.

Watched a bit on the news in Belgium saying how good they were, present your pass then get a drink. Followed by taking the mask off to drink your beer, seems redundant.
		
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The most useful part of that procedure is presenting the pass. The mask is less necessary if everyone has a pass.


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Medical professionals? Do you mean doctors? I doubt many doctors are saying that, because they are, to put it simply, wrong.

Midwives, maybe. They sometimes harbour traditional but wrong ideas about their chosen area of work - old midwives tales, if you like - but are not in a position to advise on vaccinations and should not be offering a view.
		
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Next door is a midwife, her daughter a junior hospital doctor.    Blimey she laid into another neighbour who refused their vaccine.


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## road2ruin (Oct 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Medical professionals? Do you mean doctors? I doubt many doctors are saying that, because they are, to put it simply, wrong.

Midwives, maybe. They sometimes harbour traditional but wrong ideas about their chosen area of work - old midwives tales, if you like - but are not in a position to advise on vaccinations and should not be offering a view.
		
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It was GP's although to be fair most of them were later on in pregnancy and this was further back but still, as a GP had told them they weren't so quick to change their thinking just because other things had changed in the meantime.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

IanM said:



			Next door is a midwife, her daughter a junior hospital doctor.    Blimey she laid into another neighbour who refused their vaccine.
		
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Vaccine police at times getting worse than the mask police


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## IainP (Oct 22, 2021)

chellie said:



			Find a walk in site here https://www.nhs.uk/service-search/find-a-walk-in-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-site

Click to expand...

Maybe a geography thing, checked last night and none of the 12 listed were offering 3rd doses/boosters.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Vaccine police at times getting worse than the mask police
		
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I'm getting to the point when I don't care if they don't take the vaccine, I just hope they don't get infected and pass it on to others. And if they do get sick and need hospitalisation or an ICU unit, they can get to the back of the queue.
And if a venue requires vaccine passports and they haven't got one, tough, you don't get in.
Science has been advising everyone to get the vaccine all year, it's free, readily available and safe as vaccines can be but if they think they know better, with over 100,000 new UK cases in the last 2 days good luck, you're going to need it.


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## fundy (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm getting to the point when I don't care if they don't take the vaccine, I just hope they don't get infected and pass it on to others. And if they do get sick and need hospitalisation or an ICU unit, they can get to the back of the queue.
And if a venue requires vaccine passports and they haven't got one, tough, you don't get in.
Science has been advising everyone to get the vaccine all year, it's free, readily available and safe as vaccines can be but if they think they know better, with over 100,000 new UK cases in the last 2 days good luck, you're going to need it.
		
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Science (and the law) have been advising people not to take drugs for decades? they go to the back of the queue too? what about alcoholics? overeaters? anorexics? anyone who ignores any scientific advise on any other matter or just this one that youre going to change the rules for?


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm getting to the point when I don't care if they don't take the vaccine, I just hope they don't get infected and pass it on to others. And if they do get sick and need hospitalisation or an ICU unit, they can get to the back of the queue.
And if a venue requires vaccine passports and they haven't got one, tough, you don't get in.
Science has been advising everyone to get the vaccine all year, it's free, readily available and safe as vaccines can be but if they think they know better, with over 100,000 new UK cases in the last 2 days good luck, you're going to need it.
		
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The vaccine doesn’t prevent you passing it onto others. 

People who don’t get the vaccine should should not get treatment? Shall we have the same for those with bad diets, overweight, smokers, speeders and those who like one two many tipples?
 Penchant for a few tipples sir? No transplant liver for you! Off to the coffin you go! 
Old? Over 65 and don’t work?  No treatment don’t need you in society. 
dangerous thoughts! 

“As safe as vaccines can be”? That’s a bold statement considering people have died from having them. Maybe more so than other vaccines.


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## D-S (Oct 22, 2021)

Seems apt.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451478834788937732


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## chellie (Oct 22, 2021)

IainP said:



			Maybe a geography thing, checked last night and none of the 12 listed were offering 3rd doses/boosters.
		
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The one where I had my booster shows no boosters on there. Wonder if it is correct?


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2021)

fundy said:



			Science (and the law) have been advising people not to take drugs for decades? they go to the back of the queue too? what about alcoholics? overeaters? anorexics? anyone who ignores any scientific advise on any other matter or just this one that youre going to change the rules for?
		
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Yes, those who wilfully take drugs in the face of well known facts  and advice and knowing it to be true, that it buggers them up:  and then they bugger other people up.
And you think they shouldn't be at the back of the queue.
All they have to do is    -Stop taking the drug.
Which is a world away from some poor souls, especially children, who are inflicted with an illness that no matter what they do, how hard they try,  they will still suffer and die!
So....don't expect me to have sympathy for druggies!
And why folks ,like you , do    ..is beyond me.


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## DRW (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm getting to the point when I don't care if they don't take the vaccine, I just hope they don't get infected and pass it on to others. And if they do get sick and need hospitalisation or an ICU unit, they can get to the back of the queue.
And if a venue requires vaccine passports and they haven't got one, tough, you don't get in.
Science has been advising everyone to get the vaccine all year, it's free, readily available and safe as vaccines can be but if they think they know better, with over 100,000 new UK cases in the last 2 days good luck, you're going to need it.
		
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Now don't get me wrong, if you are older, then at the moment its fairly crystal clear, get the vaccine on average.

Have we lost all nuance with our conversations. 

What about :-

1) A young lad of say 18 and their risk (have you followed the science and other counties/studies with regards to them and what vaccines they should have ?)
2) Someone who has already had covid (have you followed the science and the various studies with regards to them ?)
3) How about an older vaccinated person of 80 who has a poor immune response, they run a much higher risk of being hospitalised by covid over a number of days/weeks and passing it on, than say a 20 year old who gets over covid in 2 days

At this time, as for restricting access to Hospitals, it something I would be happy to protest about, its just plain wrong, wrong wrong wrong. No conversation. 

Life is about balancing harms, not one disease.

Surely you now know people who have caught the virus after vaccination and have passed it on to others, I certainly do ? (maybe less on average than non vaccinated but).

Sadly the end game is vaccinations and infections. This is going to unfold over the next 1-3 years its likely to be bumpy and then the unfolding will go for almost a 'generation', as humans and the virus continues to adapt. 

We need to ram up the NHS to cope with the virus and the fall out of this(ie. the short term direct virus effects, the medium/long term damages effects and for the other services) . Yeah its pants.


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## fundy (Oct 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, those who wilfully take drugs in the face of well known facts  and advice and knowing it to be true, that it buggers them up:  and then they bugger other people up.
And you think they shouldn't be at the back of the queue.
All they have to do is    -Stop taking the drug.
Which is a world away from some poor souls, especially children, who are inflicted with an illness that no matter what they do, how hard they try,  they will still suffer and die!
So....don't expect me to have sympathy for druggies!
And why folks ,like you , do    ..is beyond me.
		
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Lol can you take my post anymore out of context? Another idiot to add to the list........


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



*The vaccine doesn’t prevent you passing it onto others.*

People who don’t get the vaccine should should not get treatment? Shall we have the same for those with bad diets, overweight, smokers, speeders and those who like one two many tipples?
Penchant for a few tipples sir? No transplant liver for you! Off to the coffin you go!
Old? Over 65 and don’t work?  No treatment don’t need you in society.
dangerous thoughts!

“As safe as vaccines can be”? *That’s a bold statement considering people have died from having them. Maybe more so than other vaccines*.
		
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Wow, you criticise someone for making a bold statement and follow it by alleging that maybe more people have died from having the vaccine than others.

Could I see the data you used for that assertion?

And as Bob says below, it doesn't _prevent_, but it significantly reduces risk of transmission.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

fundy said:



			Science (and the law) have been advising people not to take drugs for decades? they go to the back of the queue too? what about alcoholics? overeaters? anorexics? anyone who ignores any scientific advise on any other matter or just this one that youre going to change the rules for?
		
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People with those disorders don't infect other people who could then go on to die.



Jamesbrown said:



			The vaccine doesn’t prevent you passing it onto others.
		
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The latest data shows vaxxed people are less likely to get infected and to infect others than the unvaxxed
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...us-vaccines-prevent-transmission-of-the-virus



Jamesbrown said:



			People who don’t get the vaccine should should not get treatment?
		
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I did not say that, I said get to the back of the queue.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2021)

fundy said:



			Lol can you take my post anymore out of context? Another idiot to add to the list........
		
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I'll let others judge whether my reply has taken your post out of context. To my mind, it speaks for itself.
As for name calling, I'll leave that to you.


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## bobmac (Oct 22, 2021)

Food for thought........

*22 October 2021*
Overall, coronavirus (COVID-19) infections increased in England in the week ending 16 October 2021, with the percentage testing positive still highest in those in school years 7 to 11 (7.80%).


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Wow, you criticise someone for making a bold statement and follow it by alleging that maybe more people have died from having the vaccine than others.

Could I see the data you used for that assertion?
		
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If I said more people had died from it than others I would be absolutely certain and provide you the data you’d like to see if I’d made such a statement, but the sentence began with maybe so that should of suggested to you that it was a statement without any data or source.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 22, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Food for thought........

*22 October 2021*
Overall, coronavirus (COVID-19) infections increased in England in the week ending 16 October 2021, with the percentage testing positive still highest in those in school years 7 to 11 (7.80%).
		
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That is of huge interest to me. Currently teaching cycling to years 4-6 outdoors. I may also have some exams to invigilate in a secondary school in November and think I'll pass on those. Just doesn't seem worth the risk...


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## DRW (Oct 22, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			That is of huge interest to me. Currently teaching cycling to years 4-6 outdoors. I may also have some exams to invigilate in a secondary school in November and think I'll pass on those. Just doesn't seem worth the risk...
		
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As a bit of balance, I would suggest this post about attack rates for each age band(5-14 now indicates around 75%ish, shaken with a bit of salt) :-


Devan Sinha on Twitter: "91% of England's total population has either been infected or jabbed at least once if MRC's latest cumulative attack rate of 47% is correct. Assuming random vaxxing of previously infected. (ONS denominator). https://t.co/Hf9eagrjuA" / Twitter



The cases in the 5-14 range are as a result, likely to start dying down within guess 1-4 weeks at the current strike rates(lifts arms up in a guessing style), as the virus runs out of people to infect in that age range.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			And as Bob says below, it doesn't _prevent_, but it significantly reduces risk of transmission.
		
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Allegedly so, but here we are again with 50’000 cases and rising, but many vaccinated and talks of restrictions. (Which I’m not surprised of).


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## AmandaJR (Oct 22, 2021)

DRW said:



			As a bit of balance, I would suggest this post about attack rates for each age band(5-14 now indicates around 75%ish, shaken with a bit of salt) :-
View attachment 39138

Devan Sinha on Twitter: "91% of England's total population has either been infected or jabbed at least once if MRC's latest cumulative attack rate of 47% is correct. Assuming random vaxxing of previously infected. (ONS denominator). https://t.co/Hf9eagrjuA" / Twitter



The cases in the 5-14 range are as a result, likely to start dying down within guess 1-4 weeks at the current strike rates(lifts arms up in a guessing style), as the virus runs out of people to infect in that age range.
		
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Thanks. I guess another unknown is re-infection? How many of that age range could catch it again and potentially transmit...


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## DanFST (Oct 22, 2021)

DRW said:



			Now don't get me wrong, if you are older, then at the moment its fairly crystal clear, get the vaccine on average.

Have we lost all nuance with our conversations.

What about :-

1) A young lad of say 18 and their risk (have you followed the science and other counties/studies with regards to them and what vaccines they should have ?)
2) Someone who has already had covid (have you followed the science and the various studies with regards to them ?)
3) How about an older vaccinated person of 80 who has a poor immune response, they run a much higher risk of being hospitalised by covid over a number of days/weeks and passing it on, than say a 20 year old who gets over covid in 2 days

*At this time, as for restricting access to Hospitals, it something I would be happy to protest about, its just plain wrong, wrong wrong wrong*. No conversation.

Life is about balancing harms, not one disease.

Surely you now know people who have caught the virus after vaccination and have passed it on to others, I certainly do ? (*maybe less on average than non vaccinated but*).

Sadly the end game is vaccinations and infections. This is going to unfold over the next 1-3 years its likely to be bumpy and then the unfolding will go for almost a 'generation', as humans and the virus continues to adapt.

*We need to ram up the NHS to cope with the virus and the fall out of this(ie. the short term direct virus effects, the medium/long term damages effects and for the other services*) . Yeah its pants.
		
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I will follow up on the bold points. 

I know 2 people working in intensive care. One killed himself, the other is at breaking point with the self righteous stupid anti vaxxers he has to deal with. (pro jabbers can be self riteous twits too)

There is a *chance* taking a vaccine may save somone's life, and stop someone going to hospital. If you are too selfish to take it, then you should have to deal with the consequences.  Unless proven medically exempt, *there is 0 reason not to take it, *Other than being an arse.  

From what I've been told, we can't ramp up the NHS. No one will work there, because of the above stupid twits. Also on kings in london ward, there is so many different and some rustic peices of equipment to cope, how can you just train people out of thin air? 

And calm, tried to take all emotion out of it and use PG language.


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## Dannyc (Oct 22, 2021)

The virus is defo coming back 
Me and roughly ten friends from a christening Sunday have all tested positive this last day or 2 so be careful guys 
I was rough as for 2 days before I tested positive aswell


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## DRW (Oct 22, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I will follow up on the bold points.

I know 2 people working in intensive care. One killed himself, the other is at breaking point with the self righteous stupid anti vaxxers he has to deal with. (pro jabbers can be self riteous twits too)

There is a *chance* taking a vaccine may save somone's life, and stop someone going to hospital. If you are too selfish to take it, then you should have to deal with the consequences.  Unless proven medically exempt, *there is 0 reason not to take it, *Other than being an arse.

From what I've been told, we can't ramp up the NHS. No one will work there, because of the above stupid twits. Also on kings in london ward, there is so many different and some rustic peices of equipment to cope, how can you just train people out of thin air?

And calm, tried to take all emotion out of it and use PG language.
		
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I always enjoy your posts btw, you make your points without any undertone or like. May not agree with all of them, but can understand and good to hear other peoples views. Keep calm, stress isn't good for anyone and I am certainly not on here to cause any of that. If I do wind you up, happy to stop posting on this thread(I didnt read it for a number of weeks, due to some posting styles on here). Personally, I find its good to talk, to hear others opinions and especially their experiences. Certainly helps me.

I can see reasons for not taking the vaccine individually(select numbers of people like 2 dosing 18 year olds or with certain vaccines. Alot has happened over the last few months). On a society basis, I completely agree with you, everyone would be vaccinated btw.

Pushing people outside of society or alienating them or calling them names, will bring about such things as social unrest(now and into the future), if you wish for more criminals for example by stopping people working or making people work onto the black market, its a way of doing it.

A lot of people who have not taken the vaccine are not anti-vaxxers, they are actually vaccine hesitate and we need to encourage them, explain to them, answer their questions and son. That is a big difference and proper public health. We need to focus most efforts on the most at risk as well(have you noticed that London is only about 60% vaxxed, if you look at the poor/rich breakdowns, we can do much much more. That said London does have some of the lower cases rates btw).

There are no easy answers for sure and wouldn't for a moment suggest there is. There is just loads of bad stories everywhere from this pandemic.

Of course we can ramp up the NHS, not taking actions to try to ramp up the NHS to cope, is plain wrong. Its needs to happen.

We are now almost 2 years down the road, basic training for new staff for some areas could easily have been completed, equipment purchases and so on. They dont all need to be specialists or even working in the covid areas. If you look back at some of my posts going back to March/April 20 I was saying similar stuff, some people believed this would all be over fairly quickly, The past pandemics tells us it wouldn't be and it would not be nice.

All sides to the sword are sharp(can think of better wording, but the forum doesn't let me use them. I would be fraggers best new friend), pants pants pants.

All the best and take care and look after yourselves.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s also worth remembering there will be plenty of people with valid concerns about the vaccine and it’s affects

*Whilst it’s a small amount there are people who have had adverse reactions to the vaccine and there is no guarantee it’s 100% safe*

I know there are pregnant ladies , ladies looking to get pregnant etc who haven’t had the vaccine because of the unknown effects it could have on unborn babies or fertility.
		
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Some people have died due to their parachutes not deploying when jumping out of an aeroplane, it's still better to have one on though.


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Some people have died due to their parachutes not deploying when jumping out of an aeroplane, it's still better to have one on though.
		
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But you can get around your parachute not opening by not jumping out in the first place.....


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## Ethan (Oct 22, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Allegedly so, but here we are again with 50’000 cases and rising, but many vaccinated and talks of restrictions. (Which I’m not surprised of).
		
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Not allegedly. If it didn't, we would have a lot more cases. But the effect does not last for ever, especially in older people, and there are still a lot of unvaccinated people around.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2021)

I know plenty of very decent people who contribute significantly to the wellbeing of society but would today be dead had the NHS adopted a ‘sorry…back of the queue for you m’lad’ approach. Sadly (for me) it seems like some on here would be happy with that.  Me…I’m for an NHS that treats people without fear or favour.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Some people have died due to their parachutes not deploying when jumping out of an aeroplane, it's still better to have one on though.
		
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Congratulations- you win 👏


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Congratulations- you win 👏
		
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Its not a competition, it's just a comment that points out accepting the preventative measures we are advised to use by the experts cannot be guaranteed 100% effective but on balance are in our better interests.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2021)

Imurg said:



			But you can get around your parachute not opening by not jumping out in the first place.....
		
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If your planes crashing you may find it the better of two options.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not a competition, it's just a comment that points out accepting the preventative measures we are advised to use by the experts cannot be guaranteed 100% effective but on balance are in our better interests.
		
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It was a ridiculous comment trying make some stupid comparison


SocketRocket said:



			If your planes crashing you may find it the better of two options.
		
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and again - just accept that some will still feel unease about a vaccine that is still very new and has affected a number of people negatively.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It was a ridiculous comment trying make some stupid comparison


and again - just accept that some will still feel unease about a vaccine that is still very new and has affected a number of people negatively.
		
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Again, it was to emphasise the point that nothing is 100% safe but in may cases the better option, what's stupid or ridiculous about that.

I haven't suggested some will not feel uneasy at taking a vaccination, rather that the decision needs to be based on expert advice and probability.

Your second quote of mine was an answer to another poster and only relevant to their post.

I am happy to discuss the matter but won't resort to insults.


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## 4LEX (Oct 22, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Allegedly so, but here we are again with 50’000 cases and rising, but many vaccinated and talks of restrictions. (Which I’m not surprised of).
		
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Theres been no restrictions since July. That's pubs, clubs, festivals, full football grounds and more, yet infections haven't risen as rapidly as they did last September/October with plenty of restrictions in place then. This is despite two new variants being far more infectious.

Why do you think that is? A bit of luck? Or proof the vaccines not only prevent serious illness but infection to a very high degree


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Again, it was to emphasise the point that nothing is 100% safe but in may cases the better option, what's stupid or ridiculous about that.
...
		
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Your analogy *was* ridiculous! To be considered 'equivalent', airlines should be forced to provide passengers with parachutes, and training to use them, on every flight!


SocketRocket said:



			I haven't suggested some will not feel uneasy at taking a vaccination, rather that *the decision needs to be based on expert advice and probability*.
...
		
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You neglected to include 'personal circumstances' in the decision process! 
While I believe far too many 'no-vax' folk are making poor decisions based on misinformation, lack of trust and other wrong reasons, everyone should be entitled to make their own decision about whether/when to be vaccinated - based on as much _verifiable_ info as possible/required!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Your analogy *was* ridiculous! To be considered 'equivalent', airlines should be forced to provide passengers with parachutes, and training to use them, on every flight!

You neglected to include 'personal circumstances' in the decision process!
While I believe far too many 'no-vax' folk are making poor decisions based on misinformation, lack of trust and other wrong reasons, everyone should be entitled to make their own decision about whether/when to be vaccinated - based on as much _verifiable_ info as possible/required!
		
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My parachute analogy was referring to people who carry parachutes, not airline passengers.  I thought you would have understood that.

The best decisions are based on expert advice and probability.  People are at will to make decisions based on whatever they wish, even if it isn't in their best interest.


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			My parachute analogy was referring to people who carry parachutes, not airline passengers...
		
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That's part of the reason why it was a ridiculous analogy!! I thought you would have understood that.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That's part of the reason why it was a ridiculous analogy!! I thought you would have understood that.
		
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You're fishing for an argument. I'm not biting so won't respond to you.


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You're fishing for an argument....
		
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Certainly not! 


SocketRocket said:



			...I'm not biting so won't respond to you.
		
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Fine with me. There was no need to do so in the first place!


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 22, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know plenty of very decent people who contribute significantly to the wellbeing of society but would today be dead had the NHS adopted a ‘sorry…back of the queue for you m’lad’ approach. Sadly (for me) it seems like some on here would be happy with that.  Me…I’m for an NHS that treats people without fear or favour.
		
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Yes, and we don't know many  people who did all the right things, didn't abuse  themselves with drugs, just wanted to live decent family lives, who were at the back of the queue because druggies were ahead of them.
NICE tell us they have to make heartbreaking decisions in refusing funds for treating people who need it to live. Because the cake is only so big. And someone must be refused. (It would be better if that wasn't  the case and then no one would be at the back of the queue - but the reality is different)
And if that is the case, why is it wrong to make a judgement such as that ,on the basis some of us (sadly for you🙄) would be prepared to make.
Some people every day have to make judgements they would prefer not to, in their work.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes, and we don't know many  people who did all the right things, didn't abuse  themselves with drugs, just wanted to live decent family lives, who were at the back of the queue because druggies were ahead of them.
NICE tell us they have to make heartbreaking decisions in refusing funds for treating people who need it to live. Because the cake is only so big. And someone must be refused. (It would be better if that wasn't  the case and then no one would be at the back of the queue - but the reality is different)
And if that is the case, why is it wrong to make a judgement such as that ,on the basis some of us (sadly for you🙄) would be prepared to make.
Some people every day have to make judgements they would prefer not to, in their work.
		
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It doesn’t have to be a zero sum game with winners and losers.  I might not always be able to forgive the ‘sin‘, but I can forgive the ‘sinner’ - though I accept that that view on life may not be one that is very widely held.


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

Would you take a medication that had the following common side affects?

Conditions Of Excess Stomach Acid Secretion
Irritation Of The Stomach Or Intestines
Nausea
Vomiting
Heartburn
Stomach Cramps


Aspirin


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			and again - just accept that some will still feel unease about a vaccine that is still very new and has affected a number of people negatively.
		
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*Years of advance research*
The research that helped to develop vaccines against the new coronavirus didn’t start in January. For years, researchers had been paying attention to related coronaviruses, which cause SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) and MERS (Middle East respiratory syndrome), and some had been working on new kinds of vaccine — an effort that has now paid off spectacularly.''

The vaccine is NOT very new, it's been in development for years.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The vaccine is NOT very new, it's been in development for years.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1

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Utter twaddle!
Here's the first part of the first sentence from the article you quote/refer to....
'When scientists_ began seeking _a vaccine for the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus_ in early 2020_,'
The text I've italicised should make it clear when development of the particular vacccines for this/these virus/es
It's the *techniques to develop (such) vaccines *that have been researched/developed for several years!


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Would you take a medication that had the following common side affects?

Conditions Of Excess Stomach Acid Secretion
Irritation Of The Stomach Or Intestines
Nausea
Vomiting
Heartburn
Stomach Cramps


Aspirin
		
Click to expand...

Now I’m pro-vaccine. I think everyone should get the jab. But this post isn’t the zinger you think it is!
People who are “vaccine hesitant”, and I know a few, aren’t concerned about the known side effects. They’re concerned about the unknown ones….


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## Slime (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Now I’m pro-vaccine. I think everyone should get the jab. But this post isn’t the zinger you think it is!
People who are “vaccine hesitant”, and I know a few, aren’t concerned about the known side effects. They’re concerned about the unknown ones….
		
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But surely people who are “vaccine hesitant” are aware of a known possible side effect of Covid-19 ......................... SLOW DEATH.
What side effect of the vaccine could be worse?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			People who are “vaccine hesitant”, and I know a few, aren’t concerned about the known side effects. They’re concerned about the unknown ones….
		
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Unless they read the entire information sheet that comes with every packet of paracetamol, nurofen or any other drug they buy or get prescribed, and I'd be willing to bet big money that they all don't, then all of the things listed would be unknown side effects.


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

Slime said:



			But surely people who are “vaccine hesitant” are aware of a known possible side effect of Covid-19 ......................... SLOW DEATH.
What side effect of the vaccine could be worse?
		
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Not sure how I’ve ended up defending the idiots who won’t get the jab, but here goes…

They probably think that the chances of getting, and then dying from the virus are quite small (feel free to Google the death rate - I can’t be bothered).


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unless they read the entire information sheet that comes with every packet of paracetamol, nurofen or any other drug they buy or get prescribed, and I'd be willing to bet big money that they all don't, then all of the things listed would be unknown side effects.
		
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A touch pedantic I suppose, but the term “known side effect” was used to reference proven effects, not as in “known by the end user”…


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

Almost 7 Billion doses of the vaccines have been given worldwide.
I think if it had any serious side affects, we would have heard by now.


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Almost 7 Billion doses of the vaccines have been given worldwide.
I think if it had any serious side affects, we would have heard by now.
		
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I suspect the key word in that statement is “think”.

As stated, I’m pro vax, and have relatively zero medical knowledge. However, I can see why some groups are hesitant at the moment. I think they’re wrong, but I can understand.


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

Elisa Granato was the first person in Europe to get the vaccine.
A few days later, there were reports on twitter that she had died from getting the vaccine.
It was all rubbish of course but it was retweeted many times by others who didn't check it first.
But that was April last year and yet there are still some people who seem to be determined to find a reason, any reason not to get the vaccine.
Some say they don't know what the long term side affects of taking the vaccine could be, well we sure as hell know what the short term side affects of not taking it could be.


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Elisa Granato was the first person in Europe to get the vaccine.
A few days later, there were reports on twitter that she had died from getting the vaccine.
It was all rubbish of course but it was retweeted many times by others who didn't check it first.
But that was April last year and yet there are still some people who seem to be determined to find a reason, any reason not to get the vaccine.
Some say they don't know what the long term side affects of taking the vaccine could be, well we sure as hell know what the short term side affects of not taking it could be.
		
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April last year?

Incredibly ironic that you’ve picked a fake news story to highlight the issue of fake news.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			I suspect the key word in that statement is “think”.

As stated, I’m pro vax, and have relatively zero medical knowledge. However, I can see why some groups are hesitant at the moment. I think they’re wrong, but I can understand.
		
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Same aplies for me!

I can understand how those planning or trying to have kids would be concerned about potential, as yet undiscovered, side effects. I don't believe there will be any significant ones and the effects of being affected by Covid would likely be far more significant, but I can understand their concern.

Unfortunately, it's also very easy for dis-information to be broadcast these days. And there are far too many folk who are able/keen to do exactly that - for their own gratification, egos or other purposes!


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Now I’m pro-vaccine. I think everyone should get the jab. But this post isn’t the zinger you think it is!
People who are “vaccine hesitant”, and I know a few, aren’t concerned about the known side effects. They’re concerned about the unknown ones….
		
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The imaginary side effects are the worst. The people afraid of ghosts should be concerned about suffocating to death or having an endo-tracheal tube shoved down their neck to put them on a ventilator, not to mention the possibility of renal or liver damage that could necessitate dialysis or a transplant sometime in the future. In contrast to some of their fears, those risks are real.

People have no idea about evaluating different risks.


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			April last year?

Incredibly ironic that you’ve picked a fake news story to highlight the issue of fake news.
		
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My point was people read lies on social media and without fact checking them, use them to base their decision on whether or not to have the vaccine.
They also retweet the lies so more read it.


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Almost 7 Billion doses of the vaccines have been given worldwide.
I think if it had any serious side affects, we would have heard by now.
		
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There are some serious side effects, but they are rare. The benefit-risk profile of the vaccines is much much better than we could have reasonably hoped for, on both sides of that equation - benefit is excellent, and the safety profile is remarkably benign. There were a bunch of theoretical concerns floated at the start of vaccine development and hardly any have been seen.


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The imaginary side effects are the worst. The people afraid of ghosts should be concerned about suffocating to death or having an endo-tracheal tube shoved down their neck to put them on a ventilator, not to mention the possibility of renal or liver damage that could necessitate dialysis or a transplant sometime in the future. In contrast to some of their fears, those risks are real.

People have no idea about evaluating different risks.
		
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Ok, I fully agree with your statement. As I’ve said several times, I think that Anti-Vaxxers are wrong. However, I can understand why some groups are hesitant. 

All that said, as the only actual expert on this thread, would you say that there is zero possibility of an unforeseen side effect, no matter how small, appearing at some future point?


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			My point was people read lies on social media and without fact checking them, use them to base their decision on whether or not to have the vaccine.
They also retweet the lies so more read it.
		
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Yes, I know. And you proved it beautifully by posting a piece of absolute nonsense just because it looked like it agreed with your existing viewpoint 👍


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## larmen (Oct 23, 2021)

The term side effect seems overused, in my opinion. A sore arm isn’t a side effect. A headache or a fever maybe. But the number of side effects seems totally overstated.


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, I know. And you proved it beautifully by posting a piece of absolute nonsense just because it looked like it agreed with your existing viewpoint 👍
		
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
Are you saying that I shouldn't post an example of lies that shows how some people use those lies to decide not to take the vaccine?


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
Are you saying that I shouldn't post an example of lies that shows how some people use those lies to decide not to take the vaccine?
		
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Ok bud. You spin it however you want 👍

Just to confirm though. Which parts of the Elisa Granato story do you think are lies?


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Ok, I fully agree with your statement. As I’ve said several times, I think that Anti-Vaxxers are wrong. However, I can understand why some groups are hesitant.

All that said, as the only actual expert on this thread, would you say that there is zero possibility of an unforeseen side effect, no matter how small, appearing at some future point?
		
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Obviously not, as I said a page or two above, you can never prove a negative. It is also difficult to be sure that an event which occurs after vaccination is due to the vaccination unless it is pretty characteristic, for example anaphylaxis immediately after injection. Take Guillain-Barre Syndrome, a rare neurological condition. It has been reported, and is probably caused by, vaccination (die to creation of antibodies which get misdirected. But GBS also occurs in people who have not been vaccinated, so in any specific case, you can't be sure what the cause is. 

That is why safety assessment is done using benefit-risk judgements, which can be different for different ages, illness populations and other categories. The debate about whether the vax is useful for teenagers is marginal - most doctors would say it is fairly well settled, but for adults of almost any age, it is a no-brainer, and for older people and those with other risk factors, including pregnancy, it should be a necessity. 

The other thing is that the vaccine only stays in the body for a short time, but kicks off the immune system during that time. Most of the stuff that happens is then down to your immune system, and it isn't "carrying" bits of vaccine with it. That is very different from a chronically administered treatment such as daily tablets which can accumulate and which are active in the body pretty much all the time.


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2021)

larmen said:



			The term side effect seems overused, in my opinion. A sore arm isn’t a side effect. A headache or a fever maybe. But the number of side effects seems totally overstated.
		
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In clinical trials we normally say adverse event, which is any unwanted effect. If someone gets a vax and then is run over by a bus outside the vax centre, that is a (very) adverse event. These events are then categorised by severity, seriousness (which is not the same thing, a serious event may not be severe and vice-versa) and also are determined to be related or not related to the medicine. The bus thing would be serious (because it results I hospitalisation or death), severe and unrelated (except if thought the vax had caused impaired sight or hearing, or caused dizziness which contributed to the accident. a sore arm is an adverse event, related to the vax (because the injection is part of the vax), almost always non-serious and rarely severe. The rate of sore arm in the placebo group is pretty similar.


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Obviously not, as I said a page or two above, you can never prove a negative. It is also difficult to be sure that an event which occurs after vaccination is due to the vaccination unless it is pretty characteristic, for example anaphylaxis immediately after injection. Take Guillain-Barre Syndrome, a rare neurological condition. It has been reported, and is probably caused by, vaccination (die to creation of antibodies which get misdirected. But GBS also occurs in people who have not been vaccinated, so in any specific case, you can't be sure what the cause is.

That is why safety assessment is done using benefit-risk judgements, which can be different for different ages, illness populations and other categories. The debate about whether the vax is useful for teenagers is marginal - most doctors would say it is fairly well settled, but for adults of almost any age, it is a no-brainer, and for older people and those with other risk factors, including pregnancy, it should be a necessity.

The other thing is that the vaccine only stays in the body for a short time, but kicks off the immune system during that time. Most of the stuff that happens is then down to your immune system, and it isn't "carrying" bits of vaccine with it. That is very different from a chronically administered treatment such as daily tablets which can accumulate and which are active in the body pretty much all the time.
		
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Thank you 👍

So, if there is a very small chance of unforeseen side effects, then we can all probably understand why some are hesitant. They’re wrong IMO, but we can probably understand.


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Ok bud. You spin it however you want 👍

Just to confirm though. Which parts of the Elisa Granato story do you think are lies?
		
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The tweet that said she died a few days after getting the vaccine was confirmed false by Elisa a few days later


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The tweet that said she died a few days after getting the vaccine was confirmed false by Elisa a few days later
		
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The whole story is false. Every bit of it. 
Do you think that people were getting the vaccine in April 2020?
Elisa is a molecular microbiologist at Oxford University. 
It’s all false. Every bit of it…


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			The whole story is false. Every bit of it.
Do you think that people were getting the vaccine in April 2020?
Elisa is a molecular microbiologist at Oxford University.
It’s all false. Every bit of it…
		
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Wow, they certainly fooled me.
Can you give us a link so I can read how I was fooled so easily please


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## bluewolf (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Wow, they certainly fooled me.
Can you give us a link so I can read how I was fooled so easily please
		
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Nope. Where’s the fun in that?

Anyway, now that Ethan has confirmed that there is a (admittedly) very small chance of unforeseen side effects at a later date, can you understand why some people may be hesitant about the vaccine?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 23, 2021)

bobmac said:



			My point was people read lies on social media and without fact checking them, use them to base their decision on whether or not to have the vaccine.
They also retweet the lies so more read it.
		
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I think the sad thing about that statement is that it is so true. The ignorance of some people is astonishing. It was reading such fake news stories on facebook that led me to a “ cull” of friends. The ironic thing is that most of the Fake news is depressing, negative and sad. You never hear fake news where the average size of a man’s pecker has grown or anything positive. These people are “ energy vampires”. Unfortunately Covid is a topic where the ignorant energy vampires are revelling in spreading negative lies.


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## bobmac (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Nope. Where’s the fun in that?
		
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I thought not.



bluewolf said:



			Anyway, now that Ethan has confirmed that there is a (admittedly) very small chance of unforeseen side effects at a later date, can you understand why some people may be hesitant about the vaccine?
		
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And yet they are still happy to take aspirin which may also have unforeseen side effects.
That's the problem with side effects that are unforeseen, no-one knows what they are or if they exist at all.
What we do know is the general consensus among scientists all over the world for the last 10-11 months is ''TAKE THE VACCINE''


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			Thank you 👍

So, if there is a very small chance of unforeseen side effects, then we can all probably understand why some are hesitant. They’re wrong IMO, but we can probably understand.
		
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No, not really. There is small risk of dying every time you get in a car, take an aspirin, cross the road or even walk in a public area. There is a larger risk of dying from Covid for most adults. The fear of the vaccine is irrational because it is grossly disproportionate to the risk. People should be allowed not to have it, but they should not be allowed to pose an unnecessary risk to others as a result, nor, arguably, consume excess and unnecessary healthcare resources, thus displacing someone else from using them.


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## Ethan (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



			The whole story is false. Every bit of it.
Do you think that people were getting the vaccine in April 2020?
Elisa is a molecular microbiologist at Oxford University.
It’s all false. Every bit of it…
		
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More importantly, it was deliberately propagated with malicious intent, as are the false posts about vaccine side effects posted to the US CDC VAERS system, and many other attempts to damage public confidence.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2021)

bluewolf said:



*The whole story is false. Every bit of it.
Do you think that people were getting the vaccine in April 2020?*
Elisa is a molecular microbiologist at Oxford University.
*It’s all false. Every bit of it*_…_

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H'mm...Not 'every bit of it' imo!
You should check out these (reliable/normally reliable) sources! My memory concurs, but is not always rlelible! 
https://fullfact.org/online/elisa-granato-fake/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisa_Granato
Trials of the Oxford vaccine _were certainly under way_ in April 2020...https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-04-23-oxford-covid-19-vaccine-begins-human-trial-stage


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## Voyager EMH (Oct 24, 2021)

Went for my booster jab yesterday with Mrs V and her brother.
After sitting and waiting for a while, I realised my posture was poor so I "straightened-up" in my chair. BANG! Hit my head on something.
It was a metal suggestion box. I uttered a few suggestions as I hope you can imagine.
Had a flu jab as well. Felt nowt!


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## Baldy Bouncer (Oct 24, 2021)

A bloke I work with claims that the Covid virus is just one "big experiment" and come 2023 when "the experiment" ends then we'll see.
He doesn't need to be vaccinated either, even though he has Diabetes, is overweight and smokes!
He's done loads of research though, on Fakebook!
I asked him if he thought the Earth was flat but he said, "no I don't think so"
There are some prize plums out there who believe everything on Fakebook and will deny what is good for them.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2021)

Baldy Bouncer said:



			A bloke I work with claims that the Covid virus is just one "big experiment" and come 2023 when "the experiment" ends then we'll see.
He doesn't need to be vaccinated either, even though he has Diabetes, is overweight and smokes!
He's done loads of research though, on Fakebook!
I asked him if he thought the Earth was flat but he said, "no I don't think so"
There are some prize plums out there who believe everything on Fakebook and will deny what is good for them.
		
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A relative of ours warned us not to wear a mask as it caused Carbon dioxide poisoning.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2021)

Looking at the BBCs national Covid map I notice that infection rates are tending to be lower in the major conurbations and very high in some more rural areas.  London and Birmingham are relatively low.  Tewkesbury for example has gone from the lowest in the country to one of the highest in the last two weeks.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Looking at the BBCs national Covid map I notice that infection rates are tending to be lower in the major conurbations and very high in some more rural areas.  London and Birmingham are relatively low.  Tewkesbury for example has gone from the lowest in the country to one of the highest in the last two weeks.
		
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I wonder why. You'd think not, but, like everything, there's always a reason.....somewhere.
Could it be that the folks in the cities are declining to be tested for some reason? If positive they have to stop work? Is there now no income for them as a result?  
Easy to say they should isolate etc , but there are many low paid in cities who have to take hard decisions, maybe.?
In the rural spots, easier to isolate re income - large proportion of retired etc and thus a lot more likely to get tested .
This is pure speculation, but if the figures are being crunched properly, there must be a reason .


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wonder why. You'd think not, but, like everything, there's always a reason.....somewhere.
Could it be that the folks in the cities are declining to be tested for some reason? If positive they have to stop work? Is there now no income for them as a result?  
Easy to say they should isolate etc , but there are many low paid in cities who have to take hard decisions, maybe.?
In the rural spots, easier to isolate re income - large proportion of retired etc and thus a lot more likely to get tested .
This is pure speculation, but if the figures are being crunched properly, there must be a reason .
		
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Most cases seem to be young people/school children.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Most cases seem to be young people/school children.
		
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A family member working in the NHS reckons that 90% of those in hospital are unvaccinated.  More concerningly, a number of those are refusing treatment because they don't believe Covid exists or don't trust the treatments.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			A family member working in the NHS reckons that 90% of those in hospital are unvaccinated.  More concerningly, a number of those are refusing treatment because they don't believe Covid exists or don't trust the treatments.
		
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I can believe it.  I was posting about infection cases per 100k in the BBC Covid map, most big cities seem to have the lowest number of cases and most cases are in the lower age demographic.  Obviously there must be a reason for this but I just can't see it right now.


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## drdel (Oct 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			A family member working in the NHS reckons that 90% of those in hospital are unvaccinated.  More concerningly, a number of those are refusing treatment because they don't believe Covid exists or don't trust the treatments.
		
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It's certainly worrying when even some NHS staff won't get jabbed and are kicking up a fuss at being told to get vaccinated.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			It's certainly worrying when even some NHS staff won't get jabbed and are kicking up a fuss at being told to get vaccinated.
		
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Now ,that IS worrying😳


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## Dannyc (Oct 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			It's certainly worrying when even some NHS staff won't get jabbed and are kicking up a fuss at being told to get vaccinated.
		
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Are they front line NHS staff ?? 
How many work in the office and never see a patient


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## Billysboots (Oct 25, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			Are they front line NHS staff ??
How many work in the office and never see a patient
		
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Even if they are office staff there is a risk they will bring Covid into hospitals and that is why it is a problem.

I had major surgery a few weeks ago, and the hospital wanted me out 24 hours later, not because I was ready, nor because they wanted the bed space. The reason, the nursing staff told me, is that hospitals are now encouraged to discharge patients ASAP before they contract infection, primarily Covid.

In the end I had to stop a second night because I was in such pain. There was no way I could have tolerated getting in and out of a car and the journey home. 

I can totally understand why all NHS hospital staff, regardless of role, should be fully vaccinated.


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## Dannyc (Oct 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Even if they are office staff there is a risk they will bring Covid into hospitals and that is why it is a problem.

I had major surgery a few weeks ago, and the hospital wanted me out 24 hours later, not because I was ready, nor because they wanted the bed space. The reason, the nursing staff told me, is that hospitals are now encouraged to discharge patients ASAP before they contract infection, primarily Covid.

In the end I had to stop a second night because I was in such pain. There was no way I could have tolerated getting in and out of a car and the journey home.

I can totally understand why all NHS hospital staff, regardless of role, should be fully vaccinated.
		
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I’m not disagreeing
I’m double jabbed and currently sitting at home recovering from Covid
If it’s stopped me becoming seriously ill then thank u very much but it ain’t stopped me getting it or passing it on


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## chellie (Oct 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Even if they are office staff there is a risk they will bring Covid into hospitals and that is why it is a problem.

I had major surgery a few weeks ago, and the hospital wanted me out 24 hours later, not because I was ready, nor because they wanted the bed space. The reason, the nursing staff told me, is that hospitals are now encouraged to discharge patients ASAP before they contract infection, primarily Covid.

In the end I had to stop a second night because I was in such pain. There was no way I could have tolerated getting in and out of a car and the journey home. 

I can totally understand why all NHS hospital staff, regardless of role, should be fully vaccinated.
		
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Used to be the same but for MRSA.


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## Billysboots (Oct 25, 2021)

chellie said:



			Used to be the same but for MRSA.
		
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They’re still really concerned about that too - it was Covid and MRSA which they expressly mentioned.


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## chellie (Oct 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			They’re still really concerned about that too - it was Covid and MRSA which they expressly mentioned.
		
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Ah, you hardly hear MRSA mentioned now.


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## Billysboots (Oct 25, 2021)

chellie said:



			Ah, you hardly hear MRSA mentioned now.
		
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I’d forgotten about it pretty much until my admission, when they realised that I’d swabbed positive for it 20-odd years ago and because they didn’t have time to re-swab me they had to find me my own room. So it’s not all bad 😇


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## GB72 (Oct 25, 2021)

Purely guesswork but living in a rural area I can see why there can be higher rates. Some see this as an urban thing, far safer in the countries. Then you have the fact that all the kids go to school on one bus, all the adults drink in one pub, people see people every day. One person gets it in a village and it spreads. Think half of the under 15s in my village a contracted it last week at the same time going by the number of people I know who were isolating due to one or all of their kids getting it


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## fundy (Oct 25, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Purely guesswork but living in a rural area I can see why there can be higher rates. Some see this as an urban thing, far safer in the countries. Then you have the fact that all the kids go to school on one bus, all the adults drink in one pub, people see people every day. One person gets it in a village and it spreads. Think half of the under 15s in my village a contracted it last week at the same time going by the number of people I know who were isolating due to one or all of their kids getting it
		
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Counter guesswork; The urban high density cities suffered much worse with it in the first 2 waves and thus there is far higher immunity to it this time round compared to people in villages who found it far easier to stay isolated before but have not bothered as much this time round

That or its just a viral illness that comes and goes in different areas which would explain the vast difference in success between different areas/countries etc with different rules and restrictions at different times contrary to what at times would be expected


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 25, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’d forgotten about it pretty much until my admission, when they realised that I’d swabbed positive for it 20-odd years ago and because they didn’t have time to re-swab me they had to find me my own room. So it’s not all bad 😇
		
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Sounds like you was lucky with it, a contractor at work struggles to walk, one day I asked what’s up with his leg and he pulled up his trousers and peeled back his bandage to reveal a puss leaking zombified leg that looked like pirhanas had a nibble to his bone 

Sore leg and sore subject but caught it at hospital and they’re refusing to pay out.


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2021)

Dannyc said:



			I’m not disagreeing
I’m double jabbed and currently sitting at home recovering from Covid
If it’s stopped me becoming seriously ill then thank u very much but it ain’t stopped me getting it or passing it on
		
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But there is less chance of you passing it on than an unvaxxed person.


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2021)

drdel said:



			It's certainly worrying when even some NHS staff won't get jabbed and are kicking up a fuss at being told to get vaccinated.
		
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Apparently some are refusing the vaccine on ''religious grounds''


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## DRW (Oct 26, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			A family member working in the NHS reckons that 90% of those in hospital are unvaccinated.  More concerningly, a number of those are refusing treatment because they don't believe Covid exists or don't trust the treatments.
		
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That is highly unusual level. Given the vey high level of vaccinations rates generally, the 90% of unvaccinated is not what you would expect for a complete hospital. Clearly depends on hospital by hospital basis.

Just for info, From PHE surveillance report for week 38-41 for people presenting for emergency care(within 28 days of +ve), they show, ignoring unlinked/part vaxxed/lag. So you would expect to see from the england data :-

Unvaccinated patients           2534   (36%)
Vaccinated patients               4486   (64%)

Quickly adding a bit of context(so it doesnt appear I am coming across as anti vaccine), you would expect more vaxxed patients due to 90%+ vaccine coverage in the older groups and age being by far the highest risk factor whatever your status (along with how fat you are being a variable that you can change 'easily', get to normal weight everyone).

Looking at cases that leads to a hospitalisation the rates are (*for the 60-80+ age range*):-

*Vaxxed    is 1 in every 23 people hospitalised *with a +ve test   (ie. 3276 hospitalised out of 75393 cases)
*Unvaxxed is 1 in every 5.4 people hospitalised *with a +ve test  (ie. 540 hospitalised out of 2912 cases )

No surprise vaccines work , but still the 1 in figures are pretty scary in my eyes ......(age is the bad thing here, along with other underlying conditions such as being overweight or immune problems etc)

If you doubt my figures, the data is on the link below :-

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 42 (publishing.service.gov.uk)


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## DRW (Oct 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			But there is less chance of you passing it on than an unvaxxed person.
		
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Do you appreciate that you could vax 100% of the population and it would still not stop the spread, with the current vaccine effectiveness ?

The third dose studies, look super promising, alot more promising than the 2 dose ones at the same stage, so who knows what will happen in the future. Fingers crossed. Lets get those boosters in older peoples arms now they have been authorised.

We can save many more lives by directing our efforts and money, rather than arguing with someone over twitter who is probably already Vaxxed like DannyC or me [or most on this forum, as the typical person on this forum would be] or in a different country or a bot. I have never posted on twitter and dont take much notice of the super extreme tweets.

A picture I saw on twitter :-


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## DRW (Oct 26, 2021)

fundy said:



			Counter guesswork; The urban high density cities suffered much worse with it in the first 2 waves and thus there is far higher immunity to it this time round compared to people in villages who found it far easier to stay isolated before but have not bothered as much this time round

That or its just a viral illness that comes and goes in different areas which would explain the vast difference in success between different areas/countries etc with different rules and restrictions at different times contrary to what at times would be expected
		
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I would guess the first one more.

I play golf in four different similarish rural areas and during the first lots of waves we were all in the same tiers due to cases numbers not surprisingly being fairly similar. These areas are still fairly similar and at some stage the rural areas have to catch up to transition to endemicity ....Thankfully vaccines will soften the nasty journey

EDIT I also agree point 2 as well, comes into play somewhere in the country to country comparisons.


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2021)

DRW said:



			Do you appreciate that you could vax 100% of the population and it would still not stop the spread, with the current vaccine effectiveness ?
		
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So how is it we haven't a a single case of Polio for over 30 years?


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## DRW (Oct 26, 2021)

Sadly the current Covid vaccines are currently nothing like as effective/long term as the polio or say the measles vaccines.

Polio vaccine is IIRC when I read about it I think it was 99-100% effective and provides a lifetime protection (think its 3 dose vaccine).

Measles vaccine similar.(I made a post about the measles one before, basically it doesn't mutate in the important areas and the antibodies last 'a lifetime' due to very low half lifes/dropping levels)

The study I posted the other day over the covid 3 dose setup, showed antibody levels increasing at 28 days and at much higher rates. For context the 2 dose saw levels dropping by then and much lower levels to start with. So maybe 3 dose will provide longer protection from infection, certainly appears to start with(from israeli data).

Depending on who you read and wish to believe, some experts say we will not get a vaccine for covid that has lifetime protection from infection, infection is hard to stop (severe disease protection much more likely and its likely to get better and better over time, as vaccines and treatments involve).


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2021)

Lets hope with more effective vaccines in the future we can beat Covid


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## D-S (Oct 26, 2021)

Interesting article which is reflected in recent days by some of the better respected modellers on Twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59039739
Always good to have some light at the end of the tunnel.


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## road2ruin (Oct 26, 2021)

D-S said:



			Interesting article which is reflected in recent days by some of the better respected modellers on Twitter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59039739
Always good to have some light at the end of the tunnel.
		
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This does look positive, hopefully correct. 

Surprised we don't have Neil Ferguson popping up with another of his models suggesting 1.2m new cases a day or something.....


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2021)

The way the figures are reported, cases and deaths more often seem lowest on Mondays and jump back up on Tuesdays.
Some like to compare this Tuesdays with last Tuesdays and the Tuesday before and so on.
I prefer to compare Mondays figures, every cloud etc.
Each to their own


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## road2ruin (Oct 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The way the figures are reported, cases and deaths more often seem lowest on Mondays and jump back up on Tuesdays.
Some like to compare this Tuesdays with last Tuesdays and the Tuesday before and so on.
I prefer to compare Mondays figures, every cloud etc.
Each to their own
		
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The figures I saw recently were comparing previous Monday's as a lot on Twitter immediately jumped on the fact that there is always the traditional drop on a Monday however if you compared the previous week they were down. Hopefully at least a few who are more positive about where cases might head so fingers crossed.


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## D-S (Oct 26, 2021)

This report is not about comparing daily numbers, it’s about long term modelling.


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So how is it we haven't a a single case of Polio for over 30 years?
		
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Not quite! There _have_ been cases of Polio in UK but none (of the 40-ish) were deemed to be caused by UK 'wild' infections.
The Polio Virus is quite different to Coronavirus. for a number of reasons. Coronavirus is more like Flu viruses, though that's something of an over-simplification. It does attack similar parts of the body, is spread in a similar way (so Winter peaking cf Polio's Summer peaking) and seems to mutate fairly rapidly too. 
I suspect (somewhat fearfully) that, also like Flu, there'll be an ongoing (yearly?) need for vaccination - at least for vulnerable folk - as new variants appear!


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## bobmac (Oct 26, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite! There _have_ been cases of Polio in UK but none (of the 40-ish) were deemed to be caused by UK 'wild' infections.
		
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I was talking about naturally-occurring polio and the last case was 1984 which is over 30 years ago.
So why don't you take you pendency elsewhere and stalk someone else.
Sick and tired of it.
Back on ignore you go.


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## Ethan (Oct 26, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So how is it we haven't a a single case of Polio for over 30 years?
		
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Basic public health measures as faeco-oral main route of transmission.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2021)

Wife is currently ill in hospital and was telling me today patients are having Covid tests every 3 days, which she is pleased about, but yesterday she was taken for an MRI and an X-Ray by 2 different porters, one of the porters was telling her how he thinks the Covid jab doesn’t work as he knows a nurse who’s had all 3 jabs and is now seriously ill with Covid!!

Frightened the life out of her, she told the nurse looking after her when she got back and the nurse is dealing with it.

Gobsmacked that he would be saying such things while working in a hospital.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Wife is currently ill in hospital and was telling me today patients are having Covid tests every 3 days, which she is pleased about, but yesterday she was taken for an MRI and an X-Ray by 2 different porters, one of the porters was telling her how he thinks the Covid jab doesn’t work as he knows a nurse who’s had all 3 jabs and is now seriously ill with Covid!!

Frightened the life out of her, she told the nurse looking after her when she got back and the nurse is dealing with it.

Gobsmacked that he would be saying such things while working in a hospital.
		
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They're everywhere, a relative warned me not to wear a mask as I could get CO2 poisoning.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 27, 2021)

Just home from Aldi and it feels like Covid never happened. Very little mask wearing, no attempt to social distance and the hand sanitizers gathering dust...wanted to shout "IT'S NOT OVER NUMPTIES"  Instead I wore my mask, sanitized on entry and exit and danced around numpties getting too close!


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## Backache (Oct 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Basic public health measures as faeco-oral main route of transmission.
		
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My understanding was that polio was worse after  basic Hygiene improved.
Very young infants were basically not ill with polio it was generally older children who got the complications and it became a problem when they were no longer infected as infants die to improved public sanitation but got it later as school kids because it is so difficult trying to control faeco oral transmission amongst school kids.


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## Beezerk (Oct 27, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Wife is currently ill in hospital and was telling me today patients are having Covid tests every 3 days, which she is pleased about, but yesterday she was taken for an MRI and an X-Ray by 2 different porters, one of the porters was telling her how he thinks the Covid jab doesn’t work as he knows a nurse who’s had all 3 jabs and is now seriously ill with Covid!!

Frightened the life out of her, she told the nurse looking after her when she got back and the nurse is dealing with it.

Gobsmacked that he would be saying such things while working in a hospital.
		
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Hope the missus is ok mate 👍


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## pauljames87 (Oct 27, 2021)

Had to say to my colleague today that I was walking away from this convo before I said something she wouldn't like. She was saying why are people rushing to get a 3rd jab that hasn't worked twice before and how that it doesn't stop covid blah blah 

I found it shut the convo down sooner leaving rather than explaining as she hasn't listened throughout the Pandemic to any evidence .. convo moved on to a much less bloody boiling subject within 5 mins later


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 27, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Hope the missus is ok mate 👍
		
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Cheers


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 27, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Just home from Aldi and it feels like Covid never happened. Very little mask wearing, no attempt to social distance and the hand sanitizers gathering dust...wanted to shout "IT'S NOT OVER NUMPTIES"  Instead I wore my mask, sanitized on entry and exit and danced around numpties getting too close!
		
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Got a Sainsbury's delivery pass last year and just about to renew it; one of life's little "pleasures" that we haven't missed and won't miss.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 27, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Got a Sainsbury's delivery pass last year and just about to renew it; one of life's little "pleasures" that we haven't missed and won't miss.
		
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I used to do the same when I worked but then figured I didn't really have an excuse not to go myself when I had more time. Not sure why as it's not about the cost (which is minimal and fair) and I hate shopping and hate the great unwashed I see up and down the aisles! So perhaps I have to go to Waitrose or go online again!!

Having said that - the price difference between Tesco, who I used to use, and Lidl/Aldi is pretty compelling with no loss in quality that I can ascertain.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 27, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I used to do the same when I worked but then figured I didn't really have an excuse not to go myself when I had more time. Not sure why as it's not about the cost (which is minimal and fair) and I hate shopping and hate the great unwashed I see up and down the aisles! So perhaps *I have to go to Waitrose* or go online again!!

Having said that - the price difference between Tesco, who I used to use, and Lidl/Aldi is pretty compelling with no loss in quality that I can ascertain.
		
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They're no better behaved in Waitrose down this way.


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## bobmac (Oct 28, 2021)

The message is still the same, get vaccinated if you can but if you get Covid-19, take a pill, free of charge.
This could be a game changer.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 28, 2021)

Definitely think it's time to move the focus away from case numbers and onto hospitalisations and deaths. Russia recently reported 40096 new cases (so around 10000 less than us) but reported 1159 deaths which is more than the UK has had in the last week. Don't know whether this is due to the Sputnik vaccine not being as effective as reported or more likely low uptake rate for vaccines with only a little over 30% of their population fully vaccinated.


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## road2ruin (Oct 28, 2021)

Interesting study in the Lancet that suggests that vaccinated people are just as infectious and able to transmit the disease (especially Delta variant) as the unvaccinated. The big take away is that being vaccinated still gives excellent protection against serious illness and, in worst case, hospitalisation so getting the jab is important for your own personal health. Does also suggest that this push for vaccine passports is a complete waste of time given the people that are at risk are the unvaccinated rather than being more transmissible etc.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 28, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We're getting our flu and Covid booster jabs tonight Thursday, we've have been invited to a pals 70th birthday on Saturday, in the golf club that can seat up to 100.
He's only invited 60 friends mostly older people and hopefully all double jabbed.
My wife's not going, should I go along with 1 of my regular golfing pals, and stay in our own bubble as
we already meet up 2/3  times a week anyway.
Thoughts please.
		
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Update- turned out to be a great night, it was a 007 theme party. There was only a couple of kids there, and they kept well away, I'll post the pics/reason shortly
Thankfully only 30 turned up so there was plenty of spacing.
Karaoke guy cleaned the Mic and put a new cover on it after every masked singer .
Tonight I did a Covid-19 self test and yippee ALL CLEAR so far.
1 my mate Jaws aka Roger, kept the kids away lol 
2 me , I look the same without the mask lol
3 George my old pal the 70th birthday boy.


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## DanFST (Oct 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Does also suggest that this push for vaccine passports is a complete waste of time given the people that are at risk are the unvaccinated rather than being more transmissible etc.
		
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Will make those that remain unvaccinated question whether they can put up with not going to the pub etc.


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## 4LEX (Oct 28, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Wife is currently ill in hospital and was telling me today patients are having Covid tests every 3 days, which she is pleased about, but yesterday she was taken for an MRI and an X-Ray by 2 different porters, one of the porters was telling her how he thinks the Covid jab doesn’t work as he knows a nurse who’s had all 3 jabs and is now seriously ill with Covid!!

Frightened the life out of her, she told the nurse looking after her when she got back and the nurse is dealing with it.

Gobsmacked that he would be saying such things while working in a hospital.
		
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The porter in question probably has less braincells than qualifications, hence why he's pushing people around in a hospital on near minimum wage. I doubt he's telling the truth and if he is, then without relevent case details you can't make an informed judgement. Some people with health conditions and high obesity levels can still get very ill after contracting Covid, even with the jabs. The difference is if this is true, the nurse will likely live, instead of being carried out in a box.

The porter should be in big trouble for giving his ignorant and unqualified opinion to a patient.

Hope your wife is on the mend


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## bobmac (Oct 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Interesting study in the Lancet that suggests that vaccinated people are just as infectious and able to transmit the disease (especially Delta variant) as the unvaccinated. The big take away is that being vaccinated still gives excellent protection against serious illness and, in worst case, hospitalisation so getting the jab is important for your own personal health. Does also suggest that this push for vaccine passports is a complete waste of time given the people that are at risk are the unvaccinated rather than being more transmissible etc.
		
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Do you have a link to that report please?


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Interesting study in the Lancet that suggests that vaccinated people are just as infectious and able to transmit the disease (especially Delta variant) as the unvaccinated. The big take away is that being vaccinated still gives excellent protection against serious illness and, in worst case, hospitalisation so getting the jab is important for your own personal health. Does also suggest that this push for vaccine passports is a complete waste of time given the people that are at risk are the unvaccinated rather than being more transmissible etc.
		
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Can you link to the paper in question. I suspect it dies not say what you think it does.


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## bobmac (Oct 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can you link to the paper in question. I suspect it dies not say what you think it does.
		
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Either that or it was an older report.

Updated 11 Oct...
_''If you have been vaccinated with a COVID-19 vaccine, you are less likely to catch COVID-19, and to become severely ill if you do catch it. You are also less likely to spread COVID-19 to other people, but it is still possible for this to happen.''_

_https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-with-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection_

_23 Oct..._
''_People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.''_

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...d-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/#ixzz7AfDi8I5G


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## AmandaJR (Oct 29, 2021)

Finally snapped and lost it with the covid denyer who signed up to play golf with me twice this week. Started on the 1st tee Monday with how she was right and it's all about the vaccine passport and government control of the population. I laughed it off with a comment about Bill Gates and chips in arms etc. Yesterday she started it again referring to the brainwashed who've been vaccinated, and I stopped mid practice swing and gave her both barrels. Not so much about her opinion (which is plain crazy but she's entitled to it) rather than how insulting it is to me (brainwashed and stupid!) and that the golf course is not the place for her continued "propoganda" (BS!).

She was very apologetic then, at the half-way hut and after play. I just hope it shuts her up in future.


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Either that or it was an older report.

Updated 11 Oct...
_''If you have been vaccinated with a COVID-19 vaccine, you are less likely to catch COVID-19, and to become severely ill if you do catch it. You are also less likely to spread COVID-19 to other people, but it is still possible for this to happen.''_

_https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-with-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection_

_23 Oct..._
''_People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.''_

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...d-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/#ixzz7AfDi8I5G

Click to expand...

There was a paper that showed that in people who were vaccinated and caught Covid, the risk of transmission was roughly similar to those who were unvaccinated and caught Covid.

I have previously explained here that this is absolutely not what r2r just suggested it was. It does not mean that vaccination has no effect on transmissibility, and the authors of the paper make this clear. This paper was widely reported badly in the lay media. The critical factor is that people who were vaccinated were very much less likely to get Covid. The vast majority therefore transmitted nothing at all. The paper was actually more nuanced than generally reported and strongly encouraged vaccination. 

Vaccination reduces transmissibility. That is a fact, not a matter of opinion. If you are unlucky enough to get Covid despite being vaccinated, it will likely be less severe, but you can still transmit it.


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## bobmac (Oct 29, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I stopped mid practice swing and gave her both barrels.
		
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I would have paid good money to see that.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 29, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I would have paid good money to see that.  

Click to expand...

I usually avoid confrontation, especially on the golf course, but enough is enough


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## AmandaJR (Oct 29, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I would have paid good money to see that.  

Click to expand...

PS. Smashed my drive miles down the 2nd fairway after I returned to the task in hand!!


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## DRW (Oct 29, 2021)

Interesting preprint, over immune responses after infection for vaccinated people :-

Immune Responses in Fully Vaccinated Individuals Following Breakthrough Infection with the SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant in Provincetown, Massachusetts | medRxiv

No surprise, you have been boosted and who doesnt like a boost.


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## DRW (Oct 29, 2021)

At a guess this was the paper R2R was referring to ? :-

s1473309921006484-1635425926927.pdf (elsevierhealth.com)


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## DRW (Oct 29, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Finally snapped and lost it with the covid denyer who signed up to play golf with me twice this week. Started on the 1st tee Monday with how she was right and it's all about the vaccine passport and government control of the population. I laughed it off with a comment about Bill Gates and chips in arms etc. Yesterday she started it again referring to the brainwashed who've been vaccinated, and I stopped mid practice swing and gave her both barrels. Not so much about her opinion (which is plain crazy but she's entitled to it) rather than how insulting it is to me (brainwashed and stupid!) and that the golf course is not the place for her continued "propoganda" (BS!).

She was very apologetic then, at the half-way hut and after play. I just hope it shuts her up in future.
		
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Out of interest, what did she say that made her a covid denier ? Surely not her thoughts about vaccine passports that you typed above.

At least segregation has always been successful before with regards to covid and in history.... Not a simple area in m eyes, especially with creep that will happen. Maybe that makes me a covid denier as well


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2021)

DRW said:



			At a guess this was the paper R2R was referring to ? :-

s1473309921006484-1635425926927.pdf (elsevierhealth.com)

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Yes, probably, but that paper plainly says that similarities on transmission occurred in people with breakthrough infections. That is a massively important qualifier. 

R2R said in post 21734, _"Interesting study in the Lancet that suggests that vaccinated people are just as infectious and able to transmit the disease (especially Delta variant) as the unvaccinated." _

This is incorrect.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Yes, probably, but that paper plainly says that similarities on transmission occurred in people with breakthrough infections. That is a massively important qualifier.

R2R said in post 21734, _"Interesting study in the Lancet that suggests that vaccinated people are just as infectious and able to transmit the disease (especially Delta variant) as the unvaccinated." _

This is incorrect.
		
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I’m not disputing that the assertion by road2ruin is incorrect, but in his defence that is pretty much word for word what what I read on the BBC website, thus reinforcing your point about poor media reporting. I’d publish a link but it appears to have been removed…


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## AmandaJR (Oct 29, 2021)

DRW said:



			Out of interest, what did she say that made her a covid denier ? Surely not her thoughts about vaccine passports that you typed above.

At least segregation has always been successful before with regards to covid and in history.... Not a simple area in m eyes, especially with creep that will happen. Maybe that makes me a covid denier as well

Click to expand...

That covid has been made up to give the government a means to control the population and know our every move "every shop we go in"...


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## Beezerk (Oct 29, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			That covid has been made up to give the government a means to control the population and know our every move "every shop we go in"...
		
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Heard it myself from seemingly intelligent people, common thing between them, they are all into their conspiracy theories.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 29, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Finally snapped and lost it with the covid denyer who signed up to play golf with me twice this week. Started on the 1st tee Monday with how she was right and it's all about the vaccine passport and government control of the population. I laughed it off with a comment about Bill Gates and chips in arms etc. Yesterday she started it again referring to the brainwashed who've been vaccinated, and I stopped mid practice swing and gave her both barrels. Not so much about her opinion (which is plain crazy but she's entitled to it) rather than how insulting it is to me (brainwashed and stupid!) and that the golf course is not the place for her continued "propoganda" (BS!).

She was very apologetic then, at the half-way hut and after play. I just hope it shuts her up in future.
		
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Well done you . I won't meet my middle grandson because he's an adamant denyer


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## BiMGuy (Oct 29, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Heard it myself from seemingly intelligent people, common thing between them, they are all into their conspiracy theories.
		
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I'd love to know why they think the government or Bill Gates would be interested in tracking what we all do all day.

And how many people do they think would be needed to run such an operation. Then all those people would have to keep it a secret!


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## DanFST (Oct 29, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I'd love to know why they think the government or Bill Gates would be interested in tracking what we all do all day.
		
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Ads, big money. 

Your phone tracks almost everything anyway, so it's a moot point. Unless these conspiracy theorists are completely off grid, but judging from the amount of rubbish on social media, doubt it!


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## pauljames87 (Oct 29, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Finally snapped and lost it with the covid denyer who signed up to play golf with me twice this week. Started on the 1st tee Monday with how she was right and it's all about the vaccine passport and government control of the population. I laughed it off with a comment about Bill Gates and chips in arms etc. Yesterday she started it again referring to the brainwashed who've been vaccinated, and I stopped mid practice swing and gave her both barrels. Not so much about her opinion (which is plain crazy but she's entitled to it) rather than how insulting it is to me (brainwashed and stupid!) and that the golf course is not the place for her continued "propoganda" (BS!).

She was very apologetic then, at the half-way hut and after play. I just hope it shuts her up in future.
		
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I have a mate who's a golf pro. He puts up stupid memes all time (be it anti this or that) latest was we all sheep to line up for a vaccine that has failed to work twice 

I just commented I don't know what's more stupid .. your opinion on the subject or the fact your putting this on your work Facebook putting off potential clients for lessons as they might be worried about covid or worried your stupid will rub off on them 

He deleted the status quickly 🤣


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## GB72 (Oct 29, 2021)

I really do believe that some people are anti vax just to be contrary. There are people that just like to go against the system, whether trying to prove a political point or just because they like being contrary to the majority, they will buck against anything like this. If you told some people that wearing a mask was contrary to receommendations, they would put them on whereve they go.  Sadly with the younger generation, part of me gets the feeling that anti vax is just an expression for their desire to rebel against authority and big brother.


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## Robster59 (Oct 29, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			They're no better behaved in Waitrose down this way. 

Click to expand...

From what we see, people in Waitrose think they're too posh to get Covid.


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## Ethan (Oct 29, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I’m not disputing that the assertion by road2ruin is incorrect, but in his defence that is pretty much word for word what what I read on the BBC website, thus reinforcing your point about poor media reporting. I’d publish a link but it appears to have been removed…
		
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That is true, there has been some horrible reporting. Sometimes the main body of the media story is not that bad, but the sub-editor has stuck in some headlines or other paragraph titles that are not accurate descriptions of the work. One of the problems is that the way not all scientists write stuff likely to reach the popular media well, and they iinclude some nuance or terms which sound lay but are meant to be more technical are are understood in the trade, but a misinterpretation results. 

On this specific one, though, it has popped up here more than once before, and has been rebutted the same number of times.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I really do believe that some people are anti vax just to be contrary. There are people that just like to go against the system, whether trying to prove a political point or just because they like being contrary to the majority, they will buck against anything like this. If you told some people that wearing a mask was contrary to receommendations, they would put them on whereve they go.  Sadly with the younger generation, part of me gets the feeling that anti vax is just an expression for their desire to rebel against authority and big brother.
		
Click to expand...

During Xmas me and Missis T decided we would not be Visiting our parents. Even thought Boris said we could. Suffice to say we caught COVID off my lad who caught it in either Wales, Essex or Kent. He is a class one lorry driver. If we had gone to either parents. I am convinced we could of wiped out our parents. My lad was devastated he passed it on. 
Now his thoughts are it has gone on long enough and we should now be living normal lives. Suffice to say I am livid and that’s keeping it nice. The young generation quite frankly do not give two hoots.


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## road2ruin (Oct 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The young generation quite frankly do not give two hoots.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but that’s garbage, it’s not a generational thing it’s a personal thing. Walking around the golf club there are loads of old chaps sitting close to one another, shaking hands, hugging good bye no distancing going home to their (assumed) similar aged wives. They’re certainly not young. Supermarkets as well, young and old in equal measure without masks.


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## Slime (Oct 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Now his thoughts are it has gone on long enough and we should now be living normal lives. Suffice to say I am livid and that’s keeping it nice. *The young generation quite frankly do not give two hoots.*

Click to expand...

Don't judge my lad by your lad's standards.
My boy is still both very aware and very wary .................. and he will be for quite a while yet.


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## bobmac (Oct 30, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Sorry but that’s garbage, it’s not a generational thing it’s a personal thing. Walking around the golf club there are loads of old chaps sitting close to one another, shaking hands, hugging good bye no distancing going home to their (assumed) similar aged wives. They’re certainly not young. Supermarkets as well, young and old in equal measure without masks.
		
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There is a difference between the old boys and the young kids though, the old boys are all probably 3 x vaxxed and the kids no vax at all. And as 1 in 5  12-15 year olds have only had one vax, it's no surprise cases are still high.
In my experience, the schoolkids in our local Tesco act as if Covid has gone.


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## RichardRichieRich (Oct 30, 2021)

So what truth do you want to get at? Nobody is going to tell you anything. It's all just guesswork!


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 30, 2021)

I was at a funeral yesterday, predominantly people aged 70+. Lots of hugs and handshakes but only one mask wearer. Any blame really can not be placed on any age group, all are culpable.


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## road2ruin (Oct 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			In my experience, the schoolkids in our local Tesco act as if Covid has gone.
		
Click to expand...

Can you blame them though? They spend all day with their cohort in school with little social distancing so it’s difficult to suddenly change their behaviour outside of that setting. 

My experience is that there are people in all age ranges who have decided that Covid has gone and are just getting on. I’m just back from the folks who live in Bognor Regis, obviously an older demographic down there and the supermarkets/shops are full of unmasked wrinklies going about their business.


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## bobmac (Oct 30, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m just back from the folks who live in Bognor Regis, obviously an older demographic down there and the supermarkets/shops are full of unmasked wrinklies going about their business.
		
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But they have been vaccinated, the kids haven't.


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## road2ruin (Oct 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			But they have been vaccinated, the kids haven't.
		
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The older people are safe because they are vaccinated and the kids have very, very low risk so there was always likely to be a lower take up of vaccinations imo. The way it’s going that age group will all have natural immunity before long anyway.


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## Paperboy (Oct 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			But they have been vaccinated, the kids haven't.
		
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Yes but even vaccinated you can still catch and pass on the Virus!


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			There is a difference between the old boys and the young kids though, the old boys are all probably 3 x vaxxed and the kids no vax at all. And as 1 in 5  12-15 year olds have only had one vax, it's no surprise cases are still high.
In my experience, the schoolkids in our local Tesco act as if Covid has gone.
		
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Bob am not getting into an arguement with anyone on here, what I will say is it is sad that you have explain why there is an obvious difference between the young and old. The thing makes makes me smile is the first comment to my post is “ that is garbage” then later it is “ can you blame them”. 😳


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## bobmac (Oct 30, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			Yes but even vaccinated you can still catch and pass on the Virus!
		
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Yes, I know but the vaccinated are less likely to catch and pass on the virus.



road2ruin said:



			The way it’s going that age group will all have natural immunity before long anyway.
		
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And how are they going to get the immunity, by catching Covid and surviving?


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## AmandaJR (Oct 30, 2021)

I'm not sure I can see the difference between age groups. The double/treble jabbed aren't observing mask-wearing and social-distancing because they feel safe and protected from Covid. The youngsters aren't observing mask-wearing and social-distancing because they don't feel Covid is likely to affect them...so they feel safe and protected by their age...

For me neither is worse than the other.


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## road2ruin (Oct 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And how are they going to get the immunity, by catching Covid and surviving?
		
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Yes. Your comment of 'surviving' makes it sound as though they'll have to battle a life threatening illness and only the fittest will come out the other side. Fortunately the youngest are rarely affected and are more likely to be asymptomatic so Covid probably will sweep through classrooms etc and they will catch it and gain natural immunity in the short term.


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## road2ruin (Oct 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Bob am not getting into an arguement with anyone on here, what I will say is it is sad that you have explain why there is an obvious difference between the young and old. The thing makes makes me smile is the first comment to my post is “ that is garbage” then later it is “ can you blame them”. 😳
		
Click to expand...

My 'garbage' comment was aimed at your opinion that it was the young that are solely to blame for the present state of Covid and how they are the ones ignoring the basic guidelines. In my experience it isn't any one age range, it is a particular attitude type that crosses all age ranges/genders/ethnicities, you cannot lay the blame on anything at the door of any one group of people.

The comment of 'can you blame them' was purely that they are in close contact with their friends all day in a pretty confined space and so why expect them to act any differently when they are outside of the classroom? You also have to remember that out of all age groups the youngest have been and will be affected far more and over a longer period than any other age group.


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## TopOfTheFlop (Oct 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			During Xmas me and Missis T decided we would not be Visiting our parents. Even thought Boris said we could. Suffice to say we caught COVID off my lad who caught it in either Wales, Essex or Kent. He is a class one lorry driver. If we had gone to either parents. I am convinced we could of wiped out our parents. My lad was devastated he passed it on.
Now his thoughts are it has gone on long enough and we should now be living normal lives. Suffice to say I am livid and that’s keeping it nice. The young generation quite frankly do not give two hoots.[/QUOTE
Were you not in Mexico when we had our outbreak? 🤷🏻‍♂️
As for the young generation - I won’t start with it but I will reiterate that that is garbage - every generation we are seeing acts of foolishness in regards to not caring about others, no need to put an age on it.
		
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Tashyboy said:



			During Xmas me and Missis T decided we would not be Visiting our parents. Even thought Boris said we could. Suffice to say we caught COVID off my lad who caught it in either Wales, Essex or Kent. He is a class one lorry driver. If we had gone to either parents. I am convinced we could of wiped out our parents. My lad was devastated he passed it on.
Now his thoughts are it has gone on long enough and we should now be living normal lives. Suffice to say I am livid and that’s keeping it nice. The young generation quite frankly do not give two hoots.
		
Click to expand...



Were you not in Mexico when we had our outbreak? 🤷🏻‍♂️ A bit pot and kettle.
As for the young generation - I won’t start with it but I will reiterate that that is garbage - every generation we are seeing acts of foolishness in regards to not caring about others, no need to put an age on it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My 'garbage' comment was aimed at your opinion that it was the young that are solely to blame for the present state of Covid and how they are the ones ignoring the basic guidelines. In my experience is isn't any one age range, it is a particular attitude type that crosses all age ranges/genders/ethnicities, you cannot lay the blame on anything at the door of any one group of people.

The comment of 'can you blame them' was purely that they are in close contact with their friends all day in a pretty confined space and so why expect them to act any differently when they are outside of the classroom? You also have to remember that out of all age groups the youngest have been and will be affected far more and over a longer period than any other age group.
		
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People will always clearly look and point fingers at their opposites 

My daughters school has had two years closed through for a week each - reason why , teachers getting Covid and vaccinated Teachers at that . 

Take the golf club as an example - which group wanted to remove tee bookings and then pile down to the tee in groups and huddle around - the seniors

But then take pubs and clubs etc and it’s younger people huddled together 

Maybe it’s time for people to put away the Covid police badges and stop pointing fingers at how others are acting and lumping groups together even more so when the same people in the past wanted to ignore Covid for the sun - there will always be people who want to ignore the virus and move on in life and that’s regardless of age , just take solace in your own actions and do your bit - can never control how others act


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## chrisd (Oct 30, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm not sure I can see the difference between age groups. The double/treble jabbed aren't observing mask-wearing and social-distancing because they feel safe and protected from Covid. The youngsters aren't observing mask-wearing and social-distancing because they don't feel Covid is likely to affect them...so they feel safe and protected by their age...

For me neither is worse than the other.
		
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I was in London last weekend with the grandchildren at a show. Round China Town area it was rammed, hardly any masks worn there, or at the theatre, or on the underground or train - no wonder numbers are rising


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## bobmac (Oct 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And how are they going to get the immunity, by catching Covid and surviving?
		
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road2ruin said:



			Yes.
		
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I'm not an expert on Covid-19, I'll leave that others but I have spent the last 18 months sat in an empty house doing my bit and unless LP has been put in charge, I'm still allowed an opinion which I will give and if that lumps me in with the Covid police, so be it.
I'm out


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## road2ruin (Oct 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm not an expert on Covid-19, I'll leave that others but I have spent the last 18 months sat in an empty house doing my bit and unless LP has been put in charge, I'm still allowed an opinion which I will give and if that lumps me in with the Covid police, so be it.
I'm out
		
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Apologies, you asked a question and I gave an answer, there was no attempt to say that you were not allowed an opinion.


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## Leftitshort (Oct 30, 2021)

TopOfTheFlop said:



			Were you not in Mexico when we had our outbreak? 🤷🏻‍♂️ A bit pot and kettle.
As for the young generation - I won’t start with it but I will reiterate that that is garbage - every generation we are seeing acts of foolishness in regards to not caring about others, no need to put an age on it.
		
Click to expand...

Hypocrisy is everywhere. Posted earlier on this thread about his summer trip to Devon. moaning about lack of mask wearing. If he’s that bothered stay a home.
blaming the kids is an extension of vaccinate the kids! State endorsed gaslighting


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 30, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Hypocrisy is everywhere. Posted earlier on this thread about his summer trip to Devon. moaning about lack of mask wearing. If he’s that bothered stay a home.
blaming the kids is an extension of vaccinate the kids! State endorsed gaslighting
		
Click to expand...

Do I take it then you don't agree with children having the vaccine.
It has been said that the vaccinated don't spread the virus as much as the unvaccinated.
Kids, by their nature, will spread the virus more, so maybe if vaccinated those ones will spread it less?
Are you saying that you think vaccinated kids will spread it as much as unvaccinated kids?
If so, same would apply to adults?


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## Leftitshort (Oct 30, 2021)

Take what you want pal. Have you got school age kids?


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## road2ruin (Oct 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Do I take it then you don't agree with children having the vaccine.
It has been said that the vaccinated don't spread the virus as much as the unvaccinated.
Kids, by their nature, will spread the virus more, so maybe if vaccinated those ones will spread it less?
Are you saying that you think vaccinated kids will spread it as much as unvaccinated kids?
If so, same would apply to adults?
		
Click to expand...

I think it depends on what age range that we’re talking about. My daughter is 7yrs old and the jury is out for me whether she would get the vaccine. The health risk to her from Covid are negligible and the risks from the vaccine are unknown so, from a selfish point of view, I would be leaning towards not having it at the moment. 

I have absolutely no issues if other parents want their 5yrs and above to have it, should be completely down to parental choice and no pressure should be put on them to do or not do a vaccination.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think it depends on what age range that we’re talking about. My daughter is 7yrs old and the jury is out for me whether she would get the vaccine. The health risk to her from Covid are negligible and the risks from the vaccine are unknown so, from a selfish point of view, I would be leaning towards not having it at the moment.

I have absolutely no issues if other parents want their 5yrs and above to have it, should be completely down to parental choice and no pressure should be put on them to do or not do a vaccination.
		
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I certainly won’t be taking my 4 year old to get the vaccine yet - not sure it’s been fully tested for children that age yet. She will be having the flu one next week I believe


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## Leftitshort (Oct 30, 2021)

I won’t get my healthy teenage boys vaccinated. I’m not an anti vaxxer. I’ve had covid, been double jabbed, mainly because of work & the threat of vaccine passports. my kids have had it at least once & are tested twice a week.

It’s their choice but I’m not encouraging them to get vaxxed. Maybe Ethan could argue against the threat of post vaccination myocardis, but in teenage boys the risks outweigh the benefits imo


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## Tashyboy (Oct 30, 2021)

TopOfTheFlop said:



*Were you not in Mexico when we had our outbreak*? 🤷🏻‍♂️ A bit pot and kettle.
As for the young generation - I won’t start with it but I will reiterate that that is garbage - every generation we are seeing acts of foolishness in regards to not caring about others, no need to put an age on it.
		
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That’s correct and at the time the government allowed me to go. The same as it allows people to go on its holidays now 😉👍


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			For the life of me, I cannot think of more damage than dying. Coupled with seeing loved ones deal with the after effects of a loved one taken away.

I am all for getting on with life but *if it means that people wear masks in crowded places what hardship is that*.
		
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Tashyboy said:



			That’s correct and at the time *the government allowed me to go*. The same as it allows people to go on its holidays now 😉👍
		
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But the Government have said that people no longer have to wear masks in shops & certain other crowded places; so why should people wear them when they don't have to if other people could have not gone on holiday but did because the Government didn't say they couldn't?


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## JamesR (Oct 30, 2021)

The government’s basic stance has always been that people should use common sense. 
Foreign holidays at the beginning of the pandemic didn’t seem like common sense to me.


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## Leftitshort (Oct 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That’s correct and at the time the government allowed me to go. The same as it allows people to go on its holidays now 😉👍
		
Click to expand...

What do you see that makes  you believe the below?

 ‘The young generation quite frankly do not give two hoots’


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## Crumplezone (Oct 30, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			But the Government have said that people no longer have to wear masks in shops & certain other crowded places; so why should people wear them when they don't have to if other people could have not gone on holiday but did because the Government didn't say they couldn't?
		
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Oooh, I don't know? Maybe to show they have a shred of consideration for their fellow humans? As they're still required in Wales and Scotland, the decision in England was purely political so Johnson could proclaim his precious freedom day.


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## D-S (Oct 30, 2021)

Crumplezone said:



			Oooh, I don't know? Maybe to show they have a shred of consideration for their fellow humans? As they're still required in Wales and Scotland, the decision in England was purely political so Johnson could proclaim his precious freedom day.
		
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Interesting to see that the mask wearing mandate in Wales isn seeming to have the desired effect despite a very good vaccination system rollout. Is it just a case of non compliance?


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## SaintHacker (Oct 31, 2021)

Just returned from a much needed week in Rhodes. All felt very safe and secure.
Nothing checked at airport on the way out which was dissapointing, but we needed to show vacc proof/pax locator form when coming back, and it was being double checked on the computer system on arrival, those whose didn't show up were asked to show their PLF.
Masks worn on the plane the whole time unless eating or drinking, only exempted by an actual Drs note. THis was strictly enforced by the cabin crew, to the point that one covidiot just in front of me who was taking the pee a bit was politley told if he didn't comply the captain would be informed and may decide to land the plane and have him removed. Cue lots of angry looks from other pax and idiot winding his neck in.
Once in Greece its easy to see why they have done so much better than us. Masks are compulsory everywhere indoors or on public transport and no exceptions. No mask, no entry, and not a sunflower lanyard to be seen. Hotel kept spotless by staff. 
I felt far safer than I do in Britain and would not hesitate to travel again.


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## BiMGuy (Oct 31, 2021)

If you are that scared of Covid. Stay at home.

Stop blaming the younger generations for the problems of the world. It is getting rather tiresome on here. The kids have had enough damage done from Covid as it is. And let's be fair. The initial spread, and super spreading incidents weren't caused by youngsters. 

Take a look many of the other big issues we face, and which generations are responsible.


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## Billysboots (Oct 31, 2021)

I may be a voice in the wilderness here, but I am starting to wonder how long this thread can continue.

Let’s face it, Covid isn’t going anywhere any time soon, if ever. It seems very much here to stay in whatever guise, and we need to accept it. 

In the early days, through lockdowns and the development and rolling out of vaccines, this thread was a really interesting source of information. Sure, there have been a number of quite nasty exchanges along the way, but in the main it remained informative.

But what is generally being discussed is now normal, day to day life. Who wears a mask, who doesn’t, which age demographic is most poorly behaved, who hasn’t had a vaccine and why, and so on. For months it’s been Groundhog Day.

Perhaps it’s time to let this thread slip down the board once and for all, or alternatively for the mods to pin it, so that those who want to continue to visit it can do so without it reappearing at the top of the forum every time someone sees a teenager in Aldi without a mask.

Stay safe and well all.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I may be a voice in the wilderness here, but I am starting to wonder how long this thread can continue.

Let’s face it, Covid isn’t going anywhere any time soon, if ever. It seems very much here to stay in whatever guise, and we need to accept it.

In the early days, through lockdowns and the development and rolling out of vaccines, this thread was a really interesting source of information. Sure, there have been a number of quite nasty exchanges along the way, but in the main it remained informative.

But what is generally being discussed is now normal, day to day life. Who wears a mask, who doesn’t, which age demographic is most poorly behaved, who hasn’t had a vaccine and why, and so on. For months it’s been Groundhog Day.

Perhaps it’s time to let this thread slip down the board once and for all, or alternatively for the mods to pin it, so that those who want to continue to visit it can do so without it reappearing at the top of the forum every time someone sees a teenager in Aldi without a mask.

Stay safe and well all.
		
Click to expand...

I think it’s fair to say that people have made up there minds about Vaccinations, masks, social distance, back to normal etc etc. I don’t think anyone will change there opinions now.
This subject gives people the opportunity to still argue with the person and not the topic.
Also Ave a feeling the winter months will add spice to the topic ☹️


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 31, 2021)

Crumplezone said:



			Oooh, I don't know? Maybe to show they have a shred of consideration for their fellow humans? As they're still required in Wales and Scotland, the decision in England was purely political so Johnson could proclaim his precious freedom day.
		
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I read BIMs comment to be a reposte of Tashys justification of his travel (because the government allowed it. )
Pointing out that because the government allow masks not to be worn, doesn't mean it is a good idea.
I think BIM and most here believe mask wearing is desirable ( for the reason you give).


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## BiMGuy (Oct 31, 2021)

The old phrase of "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should" is relevant here.

Lots of people have used all sorts of mental gymnastics and excuses for justification for breaking rules or doing something they know they shouldn't. The very same people who then berate others for doing the same.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 31, 2021)

Crumplezone said:



			Oooh, I don't know? *Maybe to show they have a shred of consideration for their fellow humans?* As they're still required in Wales and Scotland, the decision in England was purely political so Johnson could proclaim his precious freedom day.
		
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What, like people who went on holiday could have done by staying at home instead; that sort of consideration?


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## Tashyboy (Oct 31, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			What, like people who went on holiday could have done by staying at home instead; that sort of consideration?
		
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Er it was safer abroad then in the UK 😉👍


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 31, 2021)

I think this thread has run it's course.
Most people have an element of hypocrisy in what they say and do, and that includes those here myself included.
We have to get on with it and life as we know we have this for years to come, as we are all free human beings taking different views on the way forward which is mostly the path less impactful on us ourselves.


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## Billysboots (Oct 31, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I think this thread has run it's course.
Most people have an element of hypocrisy in what they say and do, and that includes those here myself included.
We have to get on with it and life as we know we have this for years to come, as we are all free human beings taking different views on the way forward which is mostly the path less impactful on us ourselves.
		
Click to expand...

The issue for me is that, now there is rarely anything new to say, the sole remaining purpose of this thread is for it to be used as a means to have an argument. It has long since ceased to serve it’s original purpose.

I’m not saying close it, as others may still wish to contribute. Pinning it seems the best option so that it remains accessible, but doesn’t constantly reappear at the top of the list of newly updated threads as a constant reminder of the crap two years we’ve all just endured.


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## Ethan (Oct 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The older people are safe because they are vaccinated and the kids have very, very low risk so there was always likely to be a lower take up of vaccinations imo. The way it’s going that age group will all have natural immunity before long anyway.
		
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And hopefully a very small number will have died or suffered subcilnical inflammatory damage, or allowed endemic levels of virus to stimulate another new variant. So that's all right then.


BiMGuy said:



			If you are that scared of Covid. Stay at home.

Stop blaming the younger generations for the problems of the world. It is getting rather tiresome on here. The kids have had enough damage done from Covid as it is. And let's be fair. The initial spread, and super spreading incidents weren't caused by youngsters.

Take a look many of the other big issues we face, and which generations are responsible.
		
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Accusing people who act with caution of being scared. The hallmark of the denier. Taking sensible precautions isn’t being scared. What would you do - invite Covid to step outside? 

The fact is that the current endemicity is driven by the young. The virus doesn’t know or care how old someone is. But your attitude is “Screw it, let them be young and if they help create a new variant or kill granny whose immunity is weakening, well, too bad, kids will be kids”. 

Not a very smart attitude.


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## road2ruin (Oct 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			.......or allowed endemic levels of virus to stimulate another new variant. So that's all right then.
		
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Ethan said:



			....and if they help create a new variant or kill granny whose immunity is weakening, well, too bad, kids will be kids”.
		
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Surely if you are so concerned about a new variant you would be all for not vaccinating our children (very low risk) and actually sending all the vaccines we are using to ensure we are okay to nations who are falling so far behind in their vaccination race? We know that the virus doesn't have any geographical boundaries and so by allowing those countries so little access (relatively speaking) to the vaccine means that it stands a far greater chance of appearing there than it does here. There is also the moral question of whether we should be helping protect other countries vulnerable rather than giving to all those in our country who remain lightly touched by the virus.


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## Swinglowandslow (Oct 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Surely if you are so concerned about a new variant you would be all for not vaccinating our children (very low risk) and actually sending all the vaccines we are using to ensure we are okay to nations who are falling so far behind in their vaccination race? We know that the virus doesn't have any geographical boundaries and so by allowing those countries so little access (relatively speaking) to the vaccine means that it stands a far greater chance of appearing there than it does here. There is also the moral question of whether we should be helping protect other countries vulnerable rather than giving to all those in our country who remain lightly touched by the virus.
		
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Do you not agree with Ethan, or not understand what he means by "current endemnicity.....etc?
If I understand him correctly, he is saying that letting the virus free reign among the young, ( who aren't too badly affected, yes), means that it spreads more among the rest of us, who it is badly affecting still.
Thus, if the kids were vaccinated there would be less spread, and less illness and death among the rest of the population.
If I've got him wrong, I'm sure he'll tell us, - and, my apology😀


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## road2ruin (Oct 31, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Do you not agree with Ethan, or not understand what he means by "current endemnicity.....etc?
If I understand him correctly, he is saying that letting the virus free reign among the young, ( who aren't too badly affected, yes), means that it spreads more among the rest of us, who it is badly affecting still.
Thus, if the kids were vaccinated there would be less spread, and less illness and death among the rest of the population.
If I've got him wrong, I'm sure he'll tell us, - and, my apology😀
		
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I completely understand however there is the bigger picture. Covid is only under control when it’s under control all over the world. We should be concentrating on passing our vaccines onto those countries that don’t have them rather than vaccination our much younger generations. Those older and more at risk are all jabbed so won’t get as badly affected as they would previously plus they have the boosters coming up. 

My main point is that to avoid scarier virus mutations I think we need to be looking abroad rather than just at our own population.


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## Bunkermagnet (Oct 31, 2021)

Shouldn't it be not us or them but us AND them?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2021)

People across all age ranges seem to be acting irresponsibly, I expect nothing else and it's why some sensible precautions need putting in place for all of us.


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## PNWokingham (Oct 31, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			People across all age ranges seem to be acting irresponsibly, I expect nothing else and it's why some sensible precautions need putting in place for all of us.
		
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Time for people to do what they feel right. If you are worried stay away. If you want to wear a mask, do so. If you don't them don't.


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## Ethan (Oct 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Surely if you are so concerned about a new variant you would be all for not vaccinating our children (very low risk) and actually sending all the vaccines we are using to ensure we are okay to nations who are falling so far behind in their vaccination race? We know that the virus doesn't have any geographical boundaries and so by allowing those countries so little access (relatively speaking) to the vaccine means that it stands a far greater chance of appearing there than it does here. There is also the moral question of whether we should be helping protect other countries vulnerable rather than giving to all those in our country who remain lightly touched by the virus.
		
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Get off that high horse carefully before you fall off. Stopping vaccinating adolescents will not change the amount of vaccine available to developing countries, which is determined by political will not supplies. Plenty of AZ available for shipping overseas now that it has been sidelined. 

But in the specific, new variants experience more selective evolutionary pressure in settings where there is partial vaccination but still a decent unvaccinated population.The vaccinated proportion drives development towards variants that evade vaccination. So, to answer your whataboyttery question, no.


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## road2ruin (Oct 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Get off that high horse carefully before you fall off. Stopping vaccinating adolescents will not change the amount of vaccine available to developing countries, which is determined by political will not supplies. Plenty of AZ available for shipping overseas now that it has been sidelined.

But in the specific, new variants experience more selective evolutionary pressure in settings where there is partial vaccination but still a decent unvaccinated population.The vaccinated proportion drives development towards variants that evade vaccination. So, to answer your whataboyttery question, no.
		
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If there was anyone on this forum who should not be accusing others of being on a high horse it is your good self 👍


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## Ethan (Nov 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If there was anyone on this forum who should not be accusing others of being on a high horse it is your good self 👍
		
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I can provide scientific information and data interpretation, you seem only to stick with whatabouttery. On the high horse charge, you were the one citing moral considerations from your pulpit of limited knowledge but strong and fixed opinions.

Tell me where I am wrong in the comments on variant evolution in partially vaccinated populations. Before doing so, google recent comments by various SAGE members and others saying the same.


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## Billysboots (Nov 1, 2021)

Groundhog Day. Again. 🙄


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## JamesR (Nov 1, 2021)

It's affecting me in that I have caught it, as have my parents.
I'm not too bad, except for being knackered, and being concerned that it'll affect my asthma or laryngospasm.

My Mum has been taken to hospital today, as she also has CLL a form of cancer and is thus being adversely affected due to that.
My Dad is ok.

So basically it's been a very worrying few days. You try as you might to avoid it, but somehow one of us caught it and spread it (and none of us are Kids, so it's not only the, at fault)


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## Hobbit (Nov 1, 2021)

JamesR said:



			It's affecting me in that I have caught it, as have my parents.
I'm not too bad, except for being knackered, and being concerned that it'll affect my asthma or laryngospasm.

My Mum has been taken to hospital today, as she also has CLL a form of cancer and is thus being adversely affected due to that.
My Dad is ok.

So basically it's been a very worrying few days. You try as you might to avoid it, but somehow one of us caught it and spread it (and none of us are Kids, so it's not only the, at fault)
		
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Not a good read James. All the best


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## Imurg (Nov 1, 2021)

JamesR said:



			It's affecting me in that I have caught it, as have my parents.
I'm not too bad, except for being knackered, and being concerned that it'll affect my asthma or laryngospasm.

My Mum has been taken to hospital today, as she also has CLL a form of cancer and is thus being adversely affected due to that.
My Dad is ok.

So basically it's been a very worrying few days. You try as you might to avoid it, but somehow one of us caught it and spread it (and none of us are Kids, so it's not only the, at fault)
		
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Take care James...hope it all works out..


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## SaintHacker (Nov 1, 2021)

All the best James for a good outcome


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## Ethan (Nov 2, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Groundhog Day. Again. 🙄
		
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Indeed. Ding ding and you appear with your cust


JamesR said:



			It's affecting me in that I have caught it, as have my parents.
I'm not too bad, except for being knackered, and being concerned that it'll affect my asthma or laryngospasm.

My Mum has been taken to hospital today, as she also has CLL a form of cancer and is thus being adversely affected due to that.
My Dad is ok.

So basically it's been a very worrying few days. You try as you might to avoid it, but somehow one of us caught it and spread it (and none of us are Kids, so it's not only the, at fault)
		
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James

That is tough. The docs treating your mum will be experienced in protecting CLL and other similar patients against infections of all sorts, so hopefully she will do OK. Some people with diseases like that don't respond as well to vaccination, so they may give her some other stuff (like the stuff Trump got) to protect her in another way.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Indeed. Ding ding and you appear with your cust
		
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If you’re going to try and put me back in my place, at least try and do it with a word I can use in a game of Scrabble 😉


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## Tashyboy (Nov 2, 2021)

Thoughts over the next couple of weeks James 👍


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2021)

JamesR said:



			It's affecting me in that I have caught it, as have my parents.
I'm not too bad, except for being knackered, and being concerned that it'll affect my asthma or laryngospasm.

My Mum has been taken to hospital today, as she also has CLL a form of cancer and is thus being adversely affected due to that.
My Dad is ok.

So basically it's been a very worrying few days. You try as you might to avoid it, but somehow one of us caught it and spread it (and none of us are Kids, so it's not only the, at fault)
		
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My best wishes to you and yours, James.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 2, 2021)

JamesR said:



			It's affecting me in that I have caught it, as have my parents.
I'm not too bad, except for being knackered, and being concerned that it'll affect my asthma or laryngospasm.

My Mum has been taken to hospital today, as she also has CLL a form of cancer and is thus being adversely affected due to that.
My Dad is ok.

So basically it's been a very worrying few days. You try as you might to avoid it, but somehow one of us caught it and spread it (and none of us are Kids, so it's not only the, at fault)
		
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Hope it all works out James, best wishes.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2021)

Last week had 2 LFC negative tests (Mon-Fri) and 1 negative PCR test (Tue). Sunday coovided and positive PCR. I had no symptoms to start and the wife had what seemed like a heavy cold. Both now in the heavy cold stage.

I wonder how many are now not bothering to test and put things down to a cold.


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## GB72 (Nov 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Last week had 2 LFC negative tests (Mon-Fri) and 1 negative PCR test (Tue). Sunday coovided and positive PCR. I had no symptoms to start and the wife had what seemed like a heavy cold. Both now in the heavy cold stage.

I wonder how many are now not bothering to test and put things down to a cold.
		
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You may well have a point. My wife takes 2 LF tests a week for work to be allowed on sites etc. All were negative but she had a nasty 'cold' for a couple of weeks which could well have been more. I had no symptoms aside from being really tired last week (put that down to a really tough few weeks at work). 

If that was covid, and I guess we will never know, then massive thumbs up to the vaccines as if htat is as bad as it gets for those double jabbed (we are both nearing 50) then I am over the moon.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2021)

GB72 said:



			You may well have a point. My wife takes 2 LF tests a week for work to be allowed on sites etc. All were negative but she had a nasty 'cold' for a couple of weeks which could well have been more. I had no symptoms aside from being really tired last week (put that down to a really tough few weeks at work).

If that was covid, and I guess we will never know, then massive thumbs up to the vaccines as if htat is as bad as it gets for those double jabbed (we are both nearing 50) then I am over the moon.
		
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Doubled jabbed and apparently I know have to wait 28 days before I can get the booster and flu jab. Surgery are now saying they aren’t doing any more flu or boosters after next week.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Last week had 2 LFC negative tests (Mon-Fri) and 1 negative PCR test (Tue). Sunday coovided and positive PCR. I had no symptoms to start and the wife had what seemed like a heavy cold. Both now in the heavy cold stage.

I wonder how many are now not bothering to test and put things down to a cold.
		
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Had so many come in with colds and go it's not covid I did a test (lateral flow)

That's not how it works ..


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## GB72 (Nov 2, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Had so many come in with colds and go it's not covid I did a test (lateral flow)

That's not how it works ..
		
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Not great I know but if Covid is just manifestng as a bad cold in those with 2 jabs then that is a positive.


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## larmen (Nov 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Doubled jabbed and apparently I know have to wait 28 days before I can get the booster and flu jab. Surgery are now saying they aren’t doing any more flu or boosters after next week.
		
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Are the walk in centres ongoing, then maybe praxis boosting is not the thing to do anymore. No idea about flu, got mine already but seen a couple of pharmacies with signs they are out.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2021)

larmen said:



			Are the walk in centres ongoing, then maybe praxis boosting is not the thing to do anymore. No idea about flu, got mine already but seen a couple of pharmacies with signs they are out.
		
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Not concerned about booster as HID is a volunteer at one (when she’s back on the road) and she will be able to sort me, it’s missing the flu jab what is more concerning for me.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59147248


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## bobmac (Nov 3, 2021)

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/20...ovid-patients-are-unvaccinated-pregnant-women


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## theoneandonly (Nov 3, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59147248

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Good Q&A and worth a read. 
 So much quackery on the Internet fourms to avoid.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Good Q&A and worth a read.
So much quackery on the Internet fourms to avoid.
		
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I posted it because I watched most of him this morning. His answers may not be what everyone wants to hear. But  suppose it is what it is. 👍


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## SocketRocket (Nov 3, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Time for people to do what they feel right. If you are worried stay away. If you want to wear a mask, do so. If you don't them don't.
		
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I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.  Is it "Do what you want otherwise do something else" ?


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 4, 2021)

Seems we are the first country to approve the molnupiravir pill for covid use

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59163899


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## Ethan (Nov 4, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Seems we are the first country to approve the molnupiravir pill for covid use

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59163899

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This looks like a good drug, but antiviral treatment is a much less satisfactory approach than prevention. It is unlikely that this drug will have the same proportional effect on efficacy and almost certainly not on tolerability.


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## funkycoldmedina (Nov 4, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This looks like a good drug, but antiviral treatment is a much less satisfactory approach than prevention. It is unlikely that this drug will have the same proportional effect on efficacy and almost certainly not on tolerability.
		
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With such a large rollout how concerned will they be about drug resistant strains?


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## Ethan (Nov 4, 2021)

funkycoldmedina said:



			With such a large rollout how concerned will they be about drug resistant strains?
		
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This won't be given out like smarties, it will only be for higher risk patients with proven early disease.


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## Italian outcast (Nov 5, 2021)

In Nice in France at the moment - over to get my booster dose this morning (as I'm having my vaccines in France rather than Italy for various reasons)
I had J&J single dose back in July - and  everyone getting that here was recommended to get a Pfizer booster before the end of the year
In and out  in 20 minutes - no problems so far
Even gave me an updated EU vaccine certificate so I can update the green pass Apps etc

Sometimes I love the French


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2021)

Spain at its best. Some will remember how much fun I had sorting out my jab. Recently announced that the over 65’s will be getting their booster providing there’s a 6 months gap since their 2nd jab.

I’m 63, and it’s 3-4 months since my second jab. Just received notification of my booster for next week. HID hasn’t heard about her booster, and it’s 6 months since her 2nd jab.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 5, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Spain at its best. Some will remember how much fun I had sorting out my jab. Recently announced that the over 65’s will be getting their booster providing there’s a 6 months gap since their 2nd jab.

I’m 63, and it’s 3-4 months since my second jab. Just received notification of my booster for next week. HID hasn’t heard about her booster, and it’s 6 months since her 2nd jab.
		
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It is obvious who wears the trousers in your house! Hope everything is good in Almeria


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This won't be given out like smarties, it will only be for higher risk patients with proven early disease.
		
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I see Pfizer has one now that is around 95% effective in preventing death and hospitalisation in vunerable people.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Nov 5, 2021)

Last year it wiped out my entire season.

This year the entire club was jabbed and we had a normal year.


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## Ethan (Nov 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I see Pfizer has one now that is around 95% effective in preventing death and hospitalisation in vunerable people.
		
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Almost. Looks interesting, though. 

_The scheduled interim analysis showed an 89% reduction in risk of COVID-19-related hospitalization or death from any cause compared to placebo in patients treated within three days of symptom onset (primary endpoint); 0.8% of patients who received PAXLOVID™ were hospitalized through Day 28 following randomization (3/389 hospitalized with no deaths), compared to 7.0% of patients who received placebo and were hospitalized or died (27/385 hospitalized with 7 subsequent deaths). The statistical significance of these results was high (p<0.0001). Similar reductions in COVID-19-related hospitalization or death were observed in patients treated within five days of symptom onset; 1.0% of patients who received PAXLOVID™ were hospitalized through Day 28 following randomization (6/607 hospitalized, with no deaths), compared to 6.7% of patients who received a placebo (41/612 hospitalized with 10 subsequent deaths), with high statistical significance (p<0.0001). In the overall study population through Day 28, no deaths were reported in patients who received PAXLOVID™ as compared to 10 (1.6%) deaths in patients who received placebo._


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## Lump (Nov 5, 2021)

Colleagues wedding last Saturday. 130 guests. 35 positive (and rising) cases so far. They are not sure if it was staff or a guest that has caused the fallout


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## SocketRocket (Nov 5, 2021)

Lump said:



			Colleagues wedding last Saturday. 130 guests. 35 positive (and rising) cases so far. They are not sure if it was staff or a guest that has called the fallout
		
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I'm not going to any enclosed events while the infection rates are so high.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not going to any enclosed events while the infection rates are so high.
		
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You and me both. Club has the Xmas game and lunch - as if Covid has gone-
Don't understand them, frankly.


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## D-S (Nov 6, 2021)

Just managed to book my booster for 18th November, I was second jabbed on 20th November. Good to see the system working so that you can now book prior to the date of your 6 month anniversary. 
Same as last time with a long list of pharmacies, universities, even a racecourse offered as sites. Nearest was in Wales (Chepstow) but went with an English option despite the fact that it’s free to cross the nearest border now. Lots of availability and easy to use.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 6, 2021)

D-S said:



			Just managed to book my booster for 18th November, I was second jabbed on 20th November. Good to see the system working so that you can now book prior to the date of your 6 month anniversary.
Same as last time with a long list of pharmacies, universities, even a racecourse offered as sites. Nearest was in Wales (Chepstow) but went with an English option despite the fact that it’s free to cross the nearest border now. Lots of availability and easy to use.
		
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You are getting your booster on the 18th  November and you were second jabbed on 20th November. Was the second in May?

Got my booster today at the Malvern three counties show ground.  It was all well organised.


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2021)

Contrary to the news, advance booking now open I you fall into the right category.  All booked for 1 Dec.


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## D-S (Nov 6, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You are getting your booster on the 18th  November and you were second jabbed on 20th November. Was the second in May?

Got my booster today at the Malvern three counties show ground.  It was all well organised.
		
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Sorry, my mistake, second jabbed 20th May.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2021)

Discussions in respect of vaccine passports and claim/counter claim on what vaccination provides are starting to confuse me.  So a few simple questions for those who are completely on top of this.

1) I only transmit the virus when it is active in me - but this could be a few months?
2) I do not need to be symptomatic to transmit the virus?
3) When the virus is active in me I am equally likely to transmit the virus to another whether of not I have been vaccinated?
4) Being vaccinated reduces the likelihood of me becoming infected through picking up the virus from another?
5) If I am vaccinated I become a lower risk of transmission to others in a population as I am less likely to become infected by it?
6) If 5) is correct then regardless of whether or not 3) is correct, it is the case that the greater the number of us vaccinated in a population the lower the prevalence of transmission within that population.

And of course - being vaccinated significantly reduces likelihood of me developing serious covid-19 illness if I pick up the covid-19 coronavirus. That I know.


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## Ethan (Nov 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Discussions in respect of vaccine passports and claim/counter claim on what vaccination provides are starting to confuse me.  So a few simple questions for those who are completely on top of this.

1) I only transmit the virus when it is active in me - but this could be a few months?
2) I do not need to be symptomatic to transmit the virus?
3) When the virus is active in me I am equally likely to transmit the virus to another whether of not I have been vaccinated?
4) Being vaccinated reduces the likelihood of me becoming infected through picking up the virus from another?
5) If I am vaccinated I become a lower risk of transmission to others in a population as I am less likely to become infected by it?
6) If 5) is correct then regardless of whether or not 3) is correct, it is the case that the greater the number of us vaccinated in a population the lower the prevalence of transmission within that population.

And of course - being vaccinated significantly reduces likelihood of me developing serious covid-19 illness if I pick up the covid-19 coronavirus. That I know.
		
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1) You can transmit the virus if you have an active infection - symptomatic or not, but also if you are a passive carrier - grabbed a door handle someone coughed on.
2) You do not need to be symptomatic
3) You are less likely to have an active infection if vaccinated, because your immune system should eliminate or reduce the ability of the virus to replicate. You are therefore less likely to transmit if vaccinated and if you transmit,. the amount you transmit is less likely to trigger a clinical infection in the recipient
4) As above, you can pick it up, the vax is not a shield, virus can still jump onto you, but you are less likely to allow it to replicate
5) Yes, and because you are less likely to become infected, there will be less of it that you can transmit
6) Yes, greater levels of vaccination rescues community risk to both vaccinated and unvaccinated people

A lot of these questions swing on two issues - host immunity and viral load. Vaccinated people have better, but not foolproof, host immunity, and this immunity will weaken with time, especially in older or clinically vulnerable people, hence boosters. Virus which gets onto vaccinated people is less likely to replicate (grow) and cause clinical infection or if it causes clinical infection, less likely to cause a serious one. The viral load is the amount of virus in each cough or sneeze, and vaccinated people who become infected have a lower viral load than unvaccinated, so if they cough, they will spread less virus which in turn is less likely to cause an infection, or a serious one, in others, and much less likely to cause a problem in other vaccinated people.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 8, 2021)

Booster booked today - bit of a queue as first day allowing 5 months since last jab to book, but my position of 255 took about a minute! 

Better than trying to book my flu jab with our GP surgery who, despite my text from the NHS to book, aren't doing under 65's until sometime in December...


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Booster booked today - bit of a queue as first day allowing 5 months since last jab to book, but my position of 255 took about a minute!

Better than trying to book my flu jab with our GP surgery who, despite my text from the NHS to book, aren't doing under 65's until sometime in December...
		
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Booking my 1st and 2nd jab was like trying to book a ticket to see Peter Kay on tour. Endless refereshing of the screen, eventually you get in and then you have to see him in another city on a date you don't want . I've just booked my booster now. Instead of being 20 miles away it is in my home town, in a pharmacy. I had a choice of both dates and times, all civilised ones. The difference is chalk and cheese. The worrying side is that being so easy, when the same people I was fighting for times for 1 & 2 can also book, suggests that people are not rushing to get their booster.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Booking my 1st and 2nd jab was like trying to book a ticket to see Peter Kay on tour. Endless refereshing of the screen, eventually you get in and then you have to see him in another city on a date you don't want . I've just booked my booster now. Instead of being 20 miles away it is in my home town, in a pharmacy. I had a choice of both dates and times, all civilised ones. The difference is chalk and cheese. The worrying side is that being so easy, when the same people I was fighting for times for 1 & 2 can also book, suggests that people are not rushing to get their booster.
		
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Although it was quoted on the news that the system was opened today, it went live on Saturday. No queue 👌


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Although it was quoted on the news that the system was opened today, it went live on Saturday. No queue 👌
		
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I started this morning as 134th in the queue but I was in within 30 seconds so really not an issue. First time around it was a nightmare and the options were all miles away. I'm not complaining, it's great, but it does suggest uptake is not as great.


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## DRW (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Booking my 1st and 2nd jab was like trying to book a ticket to see Peter Kay on tour. Endless refereshing of the screen, eventually you get in and then you have to see him in another city on a date you don't want . I've just booked my booster now. Instead of being 20 miles away it is in my home town, in a pharmacy. I had a choice of both dates and times, all civilised ones. The difference is chalk and cheese. The worrying side is that being so easy, when the same people I was fighting for times for 1 & 2 can also book, suggests that people are not rushing to get their booster.
		
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In england we are 6.2million behind the 2nd jab + 6 month figures. (I would imagine you do have to discount that figure by 1) by deaths , 2) at a guess probably some who have been infected since jab 2 and not bothering (so effectively boosted)

John Roberts on Twitter: "Sun 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿booster &amp; 3rd primary jabbing update: 371k today, up 12% on last week, continuing the steady growth seen over this last week. It's a new high, and I even needed to rescale the y-axes today! Total is now 8.4m, out of 14.6m past 6 months, so the gap stays at 6.2m. 1/ https://t.co/koljB7KWmA" / Twitter

We seem to have wasted far to much resources chasing plan B, C, D, E, F...Z rather than getting plan A done and getting protection highest in the most venerable.

I know a couple of older people who havent had it so far(one cant even access it as in a care home was in hospital for 3/4 weeks and no one will come out, got to wait until they are out and mobile) and a couple of others was very casual about it, but got it on a walk in last week after giving a nudge.

At least cases are dropping off the planet at the moment (in particular the young, as I posted before about and the good news is that cases rates are dropping in the older age ranges as well)


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## Beezerk (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I started this morning as 134th in the queue but I was in within 30 seconds so really not an issue. First time around it was a nightmare and the options were all miles away. I'm not complaining, it's great, but it does suggest uptake is not as great.
		
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Whats the website,  just the NHS one?
Didn't realise they'd changed it to 5 months.


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## DRW (Nov 8, 2021)

Book or manage your coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccination - NHS (www.nhs.uk)


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## GB72 (Nov 8, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Whats the website,  just the NHS one?
Didn't realise they'd changed it to 5 months.
		
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You can book after 5 months for an appointment after 6 it appears.


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Whats the website,  just the NHS one?
Didn't realise they'd changed it to 5 months.
		
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Booking 5 months early, not jabbing .


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2021)

Been pretty rough with it after being positive with no symptoms,  out of jail Thursday. 

Noticed on my NHS app that my covid jab and test status is no longer showing.

My other issue is that I'm off to Austria end of December and the government requires me to test on my return however the NHS advice is testing within 90 days of an infection is not recommended.


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## Beezerk (Nov 8, 2021)

Aargh I'm not eligible book yet.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 8, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Booster booked today - bit of a queue as first day allowing 5 months since last jab to book, but my position of 255 took about a minute!

Better than trying to book my flu jab with our GP surgery who, despite my text from the NHS to book, aren't doing under 65's until sometime in December...
		
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Go to a chemist that's doing over 50s and then they report it to your drs and you can have it for free still


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## pauljames87 (Nov 8, 2021)

DRW said:



Book or manage your coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccination - NHS (www.nhs.uk)

Click to expand...

Booked my wife's this morning for a couple weekends time 

My mum's booked hers for next week that will be both households (minus kids) triple jabbed


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## Rooter (Nov 8, 2021)

Just had my booster! Had Pfizer again. I was wondering how they chose what you will have as I overhead a guy in the bay next to me was getting Moderna, so the place had both, but it was pre-chosen I would have Pfizer.... Not bothered, just intreaged!


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Aargh I'm not eligible book yet.
		
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Bloomin youngster . You are just showing off.


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## Beezerk (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bloomin youngster . You are just showing off.
		
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Ha ha, just checked when I had my last jab, 5 months this weekend so I should be able to book it soon 🤞


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## PNWokingham (Nov 8, 2021)

Let's hope Pandemic to Endemic is the way we are going and that we are over the worst. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-covid-fade-background-oxford-scientist-says/

Booster jabs will see Covid "fade into the background", an expert has said as the former vaccines minister hoped that the UK will become the major economy to shift from pandemic to endemic. 

Professor James Naismith of the Rosalind Franklin Institute and a biologist at Oxford University believes Britain is over the worst of Covid in terms of case numbers and as infections continue to fall, so too will hospitalisations and deaths, which currently stand at more than 1,000 a day and 1,000 a week respectively.


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## Rooter (Nov 8, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Ha ha, just checked when I had my last jab, 5 months this weekend so I should be able to book it soon 🤞
		
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Yet my dad who is 70, was advised to shield, still cant get a booster.. The Doctors surgery tell him he has to just wait for the system... Bizarre,


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Yet my dad who is 70, was advised to shield, still cant get a booster.. The Doctors surgery tell him he has to just wait for the system... Bizarre,
		
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If he’s able, tell him to go on the system, the chance if he’s in the right time line he can book.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Yet my dad who is 70, was advised to shield, still cant get a booster.. The Doctors surgery tell him he has to just wait for the system... Bizarre,
		
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Old Skier said:



			If he’s able, tell him to go on the system, the chance if he’s in the right time line he can book.
		
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I'd echo what Old Skier has said. Don't wait for the doctors, go online and book. The booster sessions in my town are largely being done in pharmacies, not doctors surgeries, so the capacity is elsewhere.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 8, 2021)

Booster Jabs for me, wife and son all booked in for wednesday morning.


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## chellie (Nov 8, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Booster booked today - bit of a queue as first day allowing 5 months since last jab to book, but my position of 255 took about a minute!

Better than trying to book my flu jab with our GP surgery who, despite my text from the NHS to book, aren't doing under 65's until sometime in December...
		
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Just go to a chemist for your flu jab. We had ours at the beginning of October. Should have been in September but we both had the cold and cough doing the rounds.


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## chellie (Nov 8, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Go to a chemist that's doing over 50s and then they report it to your drs and you can have it for free still
		
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And if it's like our GP's they ignore that then send you a text three months later saying you can book one with them


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## chellie (Nov 8, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Been pretty rough with it after being positive with no symptoms,  out of jail Thursday.

Noticed on my NHS app that my covid jab and test status is no longer showing.

My other issue is that I'm off to Austria end of December and the government requires me to test on my return however the NHS advice is testing within 90 days of an infection is not recommended.
		
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That's how it's supposed to work if you currently have Covid. It will reappear.


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## DRW (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd echo what Old Skier has said. Don't wait for the doctors, go online and book. The booster sessions in my town are largely being done in pharmacies, not doctors surgeries, so the capacity is elsewhere.
		
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I'd echo what Lord Tyrion has said. Dont wait for the doctors, go online and book .   or do  a walk in(information below) :-

Search - Find a walk-in coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccination site (www.nhs.uk)

Wife is due hers earlier than me, due to that she has conditions but our GPs would not let her book up for covid jab with them, until later (GP did allow her to book up her flu jab tho. Bizarre Id echo what Rooter said .   (sure there is reasons tho, to be fair to GPs)


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## chellie (Nov 8, 2021)

There are also Vaccination Buses doing the rounds. Bizarrely, the walk-in vaccination site shows that they are not doing the booster so am unable to book HID in that way. However, from a link on the Vaccination Bus site I can book him onto that walk-in site for a booster.


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## Ethan (Nov 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Let's hope Pandemic to Endemic is the way we are going and that we are over the worst.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-covid-fade-background-oxford-scientist-says/

Booster jabs will see Covid "fade into the background", an expert has said as the former vaccines minister hoped that the UK will become the major economy to shift from pandemic to endemic.

Professor James Naismith of the Rosalind Franklin Institute and a biologist at Oxford University believes Britain is over the worst of Covid in terms of case numbers and as infections continue to fall, so too will hospitalisations and deaths, which currently stand at more than 1,000 a day and 1,000 a week respectively.
		
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We probably are over the worst, but we also want the remainder to get done with as little grief as possible. Naismith is a structural biologist, so this really isn't his area of expertise, but he may be right. The wild cards would be a bad flu or a new variant, the latter of which could put us back to square one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2021)

Booked my booster jag this morning for first week in December.  I could have had last week in nov…had second jag 1st June…so 6 months…blimey…was it really 6 months ago.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			1) You can transmit the virus if you have an active infection - symptomatic or not, but also if you are a passive carrier - grabbed a door handle someone coughed on.
2) You do not need to be symptomatic
3) You are less likely to have an active infection if vaccinated, because your immune system should eliminate or reduce the ability of the virus to replicate. You are therefore less likely to transmit if vaccinated and if you transmit,. the amount you transmit is less likely to trigger a clinical infection in the recipient
4) As above, you can pick it up, the vax is not a shield, virus can still jump onto you, but you are less likely to allow it to replicate
5) Yes, and because you are less likely to become infected, there will be less of it that you can transmit
6) Yes, greater levels of vaccination rescues community risk to both vaccinated and unvaccinated people

A lot of these questions swing on two issues - host immunity and viral load. Vaccinated people have better, but not foolproof, host immunity, and this immunity will weaken with time, especially in older or clinically vulnerable people, hence boosters. Virus which gets onto vaccinated people is less likely to replicate (grow) and cause clinical infection or if it causes clinical infection, less likely to cause a serious one. The viral load is the amount of virus in each cough or sneeze, and vaccinated people who become infected have a lower viral load than unvaccinated, so if they cough, they will spread less virus which in turn is less likely to cause an infection, or a serious one, in others, and much less likely to cause a problem in other vaccinated people.
		
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Thanks sir.  One further question - and it *may* be semantics.

I read, and interpret what I read, on the understanding that the virus itself is a coronavirus and that the illness that can develop is covid-19.  Is that correct.

Some commentators and pieces I read seems to conflate the two and sometimes it seems use them interchangeably. And for me trying to keep on top of developments I can find things a bit confusing…and hence my questions.

Specifically, much reference is being made of late to a study that conclusively shows that transmission by unvaccinated is no more than by vaccinated…and that fact is used as a rationale behind saying there is nothing to support wider vaccination…that vaccination is an individuals choice on their own assessment of risk to themselves developing covid-19, and hence my questions and leading into my question 6).


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## upsidedown (Nov 8, 2021)

Booked my booster for 2 weeks time and had a walk in Flu jab at the same centre 4 weeks ago


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## Ethan (Nov 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks sir.  One further question - and it *may* be semantics.

I read, and interpret what I read, on the understanding that the virus itself is a coronavirus and that the illness that can develop is covid-19.  Is that correct.

Some commentators and pieces I read seems to conflate the two and sometimes it seems use them interchangeably. And for me trying to keep on top of developments I can find things a bit confusing…and hence my questions.

Specifically, much reference is being made of late to a study that conclusively shows that transmission by unvaccinated is no more than by vaccinated…and that fact is used as a rationale behind saying there is nothing to support wider vaccination…that vaccination is an individuals choice on their own assessment of risk to themselves developing covid-19, and hence my questions and leading into my question 6).
		
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You are quite right on the semantics.

The study you mention has been widely misinterpreted, and I have moaned about it several times here. 

The study showed that in (important qualifier) people who got Covid, viral load was roughly similar whether they were vaccinated or not. In fact, the viral load was lower, but the bigger issue was that people who were vaccinated were a lot less likely to get Covid in the first place. This critical element was missed by many. The paper was picked up by anti-vaxxers to argue that vaccination did not reduce transmission when it said nothing of the sort.


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## Rooter (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd echo what Old Skier has said. Don't wait for the doctors, go online and book. The booster sessions in my town are largely being done in pharmacies, not doctors surgeries, so the capacity is elsewhere.
		
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We have tried, it says you need to wait your turn basically.


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## bobmac (Nov 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I read, and interpret what I read

Specifically, much reference is being made of late to a study that conclusively shows that transmission by unvaccinated is no more than by vaccinated…and that fact is used as a rationale behind saying there is nothing to support wider vaccination…that vaccination is an individuals choice on their own assessment of risk to themselves developing covid-19, and hence my questions and leading into my question 6).
		
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_''People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are *far less likely to infect others,* despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

*“They absolutely do reduce transmission,”* says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but *the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”*_
23/10/21
Interpret that how you will

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...d-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/#ixzz7BdympMT4


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 8, 2021)

Rooter said:



			We have tried, it says you need to wait your turn basically.
		
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For your dad, aged 70? It's over 50's now. Okay, if that is what the system says 🤷‍♂️


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			For your dad, aged 70? It's over 50's now. Okay, if that is what the system says 🤷‍♂️
		
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Will obviously depend on when he had his second jab


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are quite right on the semantics.

The study you mention has been widely misinterpreted, and I have moaned about it several times here.

The study showed that in (important qualifier) people who got Covid, viral load was roughly similar whether they were vaccinated or not. In fact, the viral load was lower, but the bigger issue was that people who were vaccinated were a lot less likely to get Covid in the first place. This critical element was missed by many. The paper was picked up by anti-vaxxers to argue that vaccination did not reduce transmission when it said nothing of the sort.
		
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This is what I deduced, but listening to Maajid Nawaz on LBC he is strongly citing the study findings of ‘equal transmission’ whether vaccinated or not as grounds for opposing vaccine passports…and I just wasn’t getting it (hence my ‘simple’ step-by-step questions that you kindly answered fully).  His insistence and conclusions on transmission on an *individual* basis may be well founded by the study, but do *not* apply for a population.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Professor James Naismith of the Rosalind Franklin Institute and a biologist at Oxford University believes Britain is over the worst of Covid in terms of case numbers and as infections continue to fall, so too will hospitalisations and deaths, which currently stand at more than 1,000 a day and 1,000 a week respectively.
		
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Really!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 8, 2021)

bobmac said:



_''People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are *far less likely to infect others,* despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus._

_*“They absolutely do reduce transmission,”* says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but *the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”*_
23/10/21
Interpret that how you will

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...d-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/#ixzz7BdympMT4

Click to expand...

Except there is the study that claims the transmission is the same...but I think the confusion is that the misinterpreted study draws conclusions assuming the same level of viral load in a vaccinated and unvaccinated individual.

Anyway…I won’t try to interpret further what Ethan has advised and your linked article as I shall start falling down the rabbit hole I have just climbed out of 🙄


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## Ethan (Nov 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is what I deduced, but listening to Maajid Nawaz on LBC he is strongly citing the study findings of ‘equal transmission’ whether vaccinated or not as grounds for opposing vaccine passports…and I just wasn’t getting it (hence my ‘simple’ step-by-step questions that you kindly answered fully).  His insistence and conclusions on transmission on an *individual* basis may be well founded by the study, but do *not* apply for a population.
		
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He is wrong, and he probably knows it, but lying seems to be OK these days so long as people believe you.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 8, 2021)

Rooter said:



			We have tried, it says you need to wait your turn basically.
		
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Tried here also. Online. Not good. Got to a centre, chose several days and time combinations, one after another. Each time it said unavaible, but beforvselection of time it was saying those times were available 🤔
Frustrating, being polite


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 8, 2021)

The good news from my perspective is the numbers coming into ICU are holding steady. The bad news is all of those in are unvaccinated as have they have been from all our recent deaths from Covid and it appears that those coming in unvaccinated are seeing significant lung damage.


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## larmen (Nov 8, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The good news from my perspective is the numbers coming into ICU are holding steady. The bad news is all of those in are unvaccinated as have they have been from all our recent deaths from Covid and it appears that those coming in unvaccinated are seeing significant lung damage.
		
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How is that bad news? It seems preventable and therefore good news?


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## D-S (Nov 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Really!
View attachment 39406

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All depends when you choose to look at the numbers


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## Baldy Bouncer (Nov 8, 2021)

Booster jab booked in for the 19th November.
Then out that evening for the Mens annual prize presentation at the Golf Club, happy days.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 8, 2021)

D-S said:



			All depends when you choose to look at the numbers
View attachment 39410

Click to expand...

The misinformation around covid is scary on both sides. Anyone who wants a true picture really has to look quite hard for it. It’s become politicised & monetised now. 
the below isn’t making a specific point but more to illustrate 

https://fullfact.org/health/amanda-pritchard-nhs-hospitalisations/


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 9, 2021)

Baldy Bouncer said:



			Booster jab booked in for the 19th November.
Then out that evening for the Mens annual prize presentation at the Golf Club, happy days.
		
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Do you think such an indoor gathering is wise at this time, bearing in mind the numbers re Covid. It hasn't gone away.!


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## Ethan (Nov 9, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			The misinformation around covid is scary *on both sides*. Anyone who wants a true picture really has to look quite hard for it. It’s become politicised & monetised now.
the below isn’t making a specific point but more to illustrate

https://fullfact.org/health/amanda-pritchard-nhs-hospitalisations/

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Are you equating the anti-vaxx propaganda with the scientific community's comments and publications?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2021)

D-S said:



			All depends when you choose to look at the numbers
View attachment 39410

Click to expand...

Or where, your showing a different area. The graph I posted is for my area which has been historically one of the lowest in the country.


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## drdel (Nov 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you equating the anti-vaxx propaganda with the scientific community's comments and publications?
		
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I think conversations in the media seem to ignore two factors: the physics of transmission v the reaction to viral infection.

In the first instance the probability and viral load are driven by prevelence, proximity and time of exposure: variables directly unaffected by vaccination.

The vaccination only influences the severity of any resultant illness. It may influence the duration and perhaps  the rate a person may 'transmit' the virus to others.

So my analogy is if driving what's the chances of being in a crash and then how severe are your injuries, if any?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			I think conversations in the media seem to ignore two factors: the physics of transmission v the reaction to viral infection.

In the first instance the probability and viral load are driven by prevelence, proximity and time of exposure: variables directly unaffected by vaccination.

*The vaccination only influences the severity of any resultant illness.* It may influence the duration and perhaps  the rate a person may 'transmit' the virus to others.

So my analogy is if driving what's the chances of being in a crash and then how severe are your injuries, if any?
		
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You see, as I understand things I don’t think that *this* is correct.  My understanding is that being vaccinated reduces (perhaps not by that much but nonetheless…) the likelihood of picking up the virus* as well as* reducing the severity of any illness arising from picking up the virus.

But I accept that I may have got that wrong.


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## DRW (Nov 9, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			The misinformation around covid is scary on both sides. Anyone who wants a true picture really has to look quite hard for it. It’s become politicised & monetised now.
the below isn’t making a specific point but more to illustrate

https://fullfact.org/health/amanda-pritchard-nhs-hospitalisations/

Click to expand...

There has been some absolutely brain freeze moments during this pandemic. Always made me wonder when everyone was picking on people meeting outside as it could be seen, instead people will just take meeting inside, out of sight. DOH. Nice scotch egg with your drink and so on

By so called public health people, take this one recently :-

Rochelle Walensky, MD, MPH on Twitter: "Masks can help reduce your chance of #COVID19 infection by more than 80%. Masks also help protect from other illnesses like common cold and flu. Wearing a mask- along w/ getting vaccinated- are important steps to stay healthy. #WeCanDoThis @HHSgov https://t.co/bfOV5VzBpq https://t.co/6DGj8nwPgD" / Twitter

She is effectively saying they are more effective than some Vaccines at stopping infections......talk about giving out the wrong messages about masks > vaccines. DOH! Also If masks stopped 80% of the spread in the public, we would see it in real life, plain as site on graphs, in fact it would be so obvious that it would slap you in the face.  But of course the masks that we wear are pants and often not worn in risky situations.

Also the recent ONS tweet, makes you wonder whats it all about :-

Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Twitter: "The age-adjusted risk of deaths involving #COVID19 was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated individuals between 2 Jan and 24 Sept 2021 https://t.co/P6ZSC2OrxI https://t.co/AMmkw6RpHZ" / Twitter

Do people actually believe the above tweets and surely they only help to destroy belief in what the 'officials/scientists' say generally. I know it makes me question what the officials say more and more.


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## D-S (Nov 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Or where, your showing a different area. The graph I posted is for my area which has been historically one of the lowest in the country.
		
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And the graph that I showed was for my area….

Maybe it would be better to give a broader view (the whole of the UK), which would be more helpful for many:-


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You see, as I understand things I don’t think that *this* is correct.  My understanding is that being vaccinated reduces (perhaps not by that much but nonetheless…) the likelihood of picking up the virus* as well as* reducing the severity of any illness arising from picking up the virus.

But I accept that I may have got that wrong.
		
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H, I went back and read post 21853-Ethan's.
As I understand it, a "person "is less likely to pick up the virus from a vaccinated person, because that vaccinated person will shed less viral load when they breath /cough on him, than if an unvaxxed did the same thing
(Other factors being equal).
If that "person" (receiving the viral load) is unvaccinated, then the virus will replicate unhindered.
However, if that "person " is vaccinated, then the virus will not replicate as much and the person will be less ill, if at all if the initial viral load isn't sufficient to "take hold"
In turn, vaccinated people who do have the virus about them will not spread it as easily because their breath /sneeze/droplets do not have the viral load as much as an unvaccinated person. Thus it's fair to say they spread it less.

If this is not correct, hopefully Ethan will rectify it😀


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2021)

D-S said:



			And the graph that I showed was for my area….

Maybe it would be better to give a broader view (the whole of the UK), which would be more helpful for many:-
View attachment 39429

Click to expand...

I think the small reduction in infections recently was due to the half term school holiday.  We will see how the trend goes over the next few weeks.


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## road2ruin (Nov 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I think the small reduction in infections recently was due to the half term school holiday.  We will see how the trend goes over the next few weeks.
		
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If you look at the start of the numbers dropping they're from the 20th October (give or take) and they've been consistent since, that should mean that school holidays are not the driving factor behind this with any luck.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2021)

DRW said:



			There has been some absolutely brain freeze moments during this pandemic. Always made me wonder when everyone was picking on people meeting outside as it could be seen, instead people will just take meeting inside, out of sight. DOH. Nice scotch egg with your drink and so on

By so called public health people, take this one recently :-

Rochelle Walensky, MD, MPH on Twitter: "Masks can help reduce your chance of #COVID19 infection by more than 80%. Masks also help protect from other illnesses like common cold and flu. Wearing a mask- along w/ getting vaccinated- are important steps to stay healthy. #WeCanDoThis @HHSgov https://t.co/bfOV5VzBpq https://t.co/6DGj8nwPgD" / Twitter

She is effectively saying they are more effective than some Vaccines at stopping infections......talk about giving out the wrong messages about masks > vaccines. DOH! Also If masks stopped 80% of the spread in the public, we would see it in real life, plain as site on graphs, in fact it would be so obvious that it would slap you in the face.  But of course the masks that we wear are pants and often not worn in risky situations.

Also the recent ONS tweet, makes you wonder whats it all about :-

Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Twitter: "The age-adjusted risk of deaths involving #COVID19 was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated individuals between 2 Jan and 24 Sept 2021 https://t.co/P6ZSC2OrxI https://t.co/AMmkw6RpHZ" / Twitter

Do people actually believe the above tweets and surely they only help to destroy belief in what the 'officials/scientists' say generally. I know it makes me question what the officials say more and more.
		
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Sensible precautions like mask wearing, social distance, washing hands and being aware of your environment are to be encouraged.  I find the anti-Covid-precaution brigade rather desperate to spread their misinformation.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If you look at the start of the numbers dropping they're from the 20th October (give or take) and they've been consistent since, that should mean that school holidays are not the driving factor behind this with any luck.
		
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Looking at the national BBC Covid rate map the regional drops have only registered in the last week.  The vast majority of infection rates are in young people so when they are not together inside buildings it's bound to have an effect on transmissions.


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## road2ruin (Nov 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Looking at the national BBC Covid rate map the regional drops have only registered in the last week.  The vast majority of infection rates are in young people so when they are not together inside buildings it's bound to have an effect on transmissions.
		
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I was just looking at the English data and the daily cases have been dropping since the 18th October which is before most schools broke up for half term so whilst half term may well have sped up the reduction in infections the direction of travel was downwards before that happened. Hopefully that's a good thing as if it were solely based on half term then infections should dip and then start to rise again.


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## DRW (Nov 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Looking at the national BBC Covid rate map the regional drops have only registered in the last week.  The vast majority of infection rates are in young people so when they are not together inside buildings it's bound to have an effect on transmissions.
		
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See the ONS survey :-

Office for National Statistics (ONS) on Twitter: "Our latest #COVID19 data shows uncertain trends in infection levels across England, Wales and Scotland in the week ending 30 October 2021. In Northern Ireland, infection levels have continued to increase https://t.co/l3JchGOiDq https://t.co/qKyYJqLjq3" / Twitter


Based on testing :-




Infections happen 2-5 days prior to the above. Infections have been dropping massively in that age group, before half term and probably due to the hit rate is now approaching herd immunity edit and the way infections flow(ie. up/down)

Sure registered infections may kick up in that age range as schools return, due to increased testing but that doesnt change anything above.


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## Ethan (Nov 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			I think conversations in the media seem to ignore two factors: the physics of transmission v the reaction to viral infection.

In the first instance the probability and viral load are driven by prevelence, proximity and time of exposure: variables directly unaffected by vaccination.

The vaccination only influences the severity of any resultant illness. It may influence the duration and perhaps  the rate a person may 'transmit' the virus to others.

So my analogy is if driving what's the chances of being in a crash and then how severe are your injuries, if any?
		
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The analogy is a fair one, if you wear a seat belt you have much a much lower, but non-zero chance of smacking your head into the windscreen compared to someone not wearing one. 

The vaccination affects more than severity, though. It certainly affects the chance of catching and likelihood of transmission, in two ways. First, if you don't get an infection, you can't transmit, second if you do get an infection, the viral load is going to be a lot lower and less likely to transmit. 

The probability of infection, based on prevalence, is affected by community levels of vaccination. 

Transmission can be a runaway phenomenon, with several factors feeding on one another and then growing very fast and getting out of control. Vaccination levels help mitigate, but not entirely prevent, that.


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## GB72 (Nov 9, 2021)

Last couple of weeks in my village have very much been good news/bad news weeks. The bad news is that, for the first time really, my village has seen a significant number of cases Assumption is that is came via the schools as all the kids in the village go to school on one bus. Anyway, number of friends had kids test positive and then a numfew others have since tested positive. The good news, irrespective of age group, they have all been asymptomatic or had a very minor reaction. Guessing the vaccine works.


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## DRW (Nov 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Last couple of weeks in my village have very much been good news/bad news weeks. The bad news is that, for the first time really, my village has seen a significant number of cases Assumption is that is came via the schools as all the kids in the village go to school on one bus. Anyway, number of friends had kids test positive and then a numfew others have since tested positive. The good news, irrespective of age group, they have all been asymptomatic or had a very minor reaction. Guessing the vaccine works.
		
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This is similar to the things I have been told . In this 'wave' the worst I have personally heard is that someone was in bed feeling very unwell for a week(older person) and took another week to start doing stuff, still not got taste at the last time I spoke to the person.

In pre vaccine era unlike previous waves, heard of the whole range from nothing to hospitalisations to death

It has meant that after the booster, the wife/me are going to change to a slightly more normal life. We have not been meeting almost anyone inside to allowing direct family back in. Yes I am cautious. Been kind of waiting for boosters and hopefully the treatments to come online, which they appear to be very shortly and hopefully boosters will see us to when they are.

Some what interesting is that we have allowed people inside our house about 8 times since March 2020, but each time with windows wide open, social distancing and a hepa filter/uv light system on (yeah I know I know, but I did say I am cautious. No masks tho!) but just as unreal as that is that we have caught one cold and a stomach bug :shugs shoulders: , draw your own conclusions from that, if we were in a study as n=1, then flipping heck whats the point, you may as well just crack on with old 2019 normal life.  Yeah we have been unlucky, as never had that issue before.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The analogy is a fair one, if you wear a seat belt you have much a much lower, but non-zero chance of smacking your head into the windscreen compared to someone not wearing one.

The vaccination affects more than severity, though. It certainly affects the chance of catching and likelihood of transmission, in two ways. First, if you don't get an infection, you can't transmit, second if you do get an infection, the viral load is going to be a lot lower and less likely to transmit.

The probability of infection, based on prevalence, is affected by community levels of vaccination.

Transmission can be a runaway phenomenon, with several factors feeding on one another and then growing very fast and getting out of control. Vaccination levels help mitigate, but not entirely prevent, that.
		
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From this and the earlier answers to my questions is it the case that the statement…

_The vaccination *only* influences the severity of any resultant illness._

…is not actually correct.   BTW I’m not criticising drdel for the statement - just trying to fully understand things and on that front I myself have been struggling of late.


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## GB72 (Nov 9, 2021)

Interestingly, one person who has it in my village says he has the same symptoms and feels exactly the same as he did when ill in late December 2 years ago (lack of energy being the main thing, he runs marathons so notices that specifically). Only very minor evidence to support the theory that it was around long before we knew about it over here and that he may have been unlucky enough to get a double dose).


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## bobmac (Nov 9, 2021)

One dose of the vaccine = good
Two doses of the vaccine = better
Two doses of the vaccine + booster = brilliant.
To be super safe and to protect others, when around strangers, wear a mask, wash your hands regularly and keep your distance.
Merry Christmas


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## Ethan (Nov 9, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			From this and the earlier answers to my questions is it the case that the statement…

_The vaccination *only* influences the severity of any resultant illness._

…is not actually correct.   BTW I’m not criticising drdel for the statement - just trying to fully understand things and on that front I myself have been struggling of late.
		
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It is not actually correct. It does not _*only*_ influence severity. 

Vaccination does the following:

Reduces likelihood of infection
Reduces likelihood of an infection that occurs despite above resulting in hospitalisation or death
Reduces transmission, due to reduced chance of being infected but also reduced viral load (likely also part of reason for reduced severity)
Reduces prevalence of infection in community

Remember that when vaccines were first put into clinical trials, the hoped for effect was a 60% or better reduction in cases. The actual results were much higher. But at no point was it ever suggested that they would stop all cases, or last forever. I was a massive supporter of primary vaccination, less so for boosters (although I will have mine). But I am a big fan of taking updated vaccines that cover new variants. Pfizer has results on a version updated for delta due out soon.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Interestingly, one person who has it in my village says he has the same symptoms and feels exactly the same as he did when ill in late December 2 years ago (lack of energy being the main thing, he runs marathons so notices that specifically). Only very minor evidence to support the theory that it was around long before we knew about it over here and that he may have been unlucky enough to get a double dose).
		
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Missis T was very poorly a year last February. ( a month before we went to Mexico) Being a nurse she wrote everything down, signs and symptoms. The lot. Why? Coz she is a nurse and she could not put her finger on what she had caught. It wasn’t a cold or flu, she lost a sense of smell and taste. Her symptoms were puzzling. Then slowly slowly signs and symptoms were being released on tv of what COVID suffering people could have. One day loss of smell and taste was mentioned. She was convinced she had contracted COVID. Everyone else in the family was fine. Roll on to Christmas just gone and we all caught COVID. Her symptoms were nigh on the same. I remember reading that Paris I think it was did samples on waste water going back to December 2019 and there were traces of COVID then. I deffo think it has been around longer than we initially thought.


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## Ethan (Nov 9, 2021)

bobmac said:



			One dose of the vaccine = good
Two doses of the vaccine = better
Two doses of the vaccine + booster = brilliant.
To be super safe and to protect others, when around strangers, wear a mask, wash your hands regularly and keep your distance.
Merry Christmas
		
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Possibly a bit more nuanced than that.

One dose of AZ - OK
One dose of Pfizer/Moderna - pretty good
Two doses of AZ - pretty good
Two doses of Pfizer/Moderna - very good indeed
Two doses of AZ plus Pfizer/Moderna booster - very good
Two doses of Pfizer/Moderna plus booster (older person or other illnesses) - well worth it
Two doses of Pfizer/Moderna plus booster (younger person) - maybe some benefit
Covid infection (recovered fully) plus two or more doses of any vaccine - very good

I agree with maintaining hygiene factors - worrying drop off in those recently.


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## Billysboots (Nov 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Last couple of weeks in my village have very much been good news/bad news weeks. The bad news is that, for the first time really, my village has seen a significant number of cases Assumption is that is came via the schools as all the kids in the village go to school on one bus. Anyway, number of friends had kids test positive and then a numfew others have since tested positive. The good news, irrespective of age group, they have all been asymptomatic or had a very minor reaction. Guessing the vaccine works.
		
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We’re in a very similar position in our village. Lots of kids have had it, all travelling by bus to school, and they seem to have passed it onto their parents, all of whom have been double jabbed. All of those parents have had nothing worse than a very minor illness.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Interestingly, one person who has it in my village says he has the same symptoms and feels exactly the same as he did when ill in late December 2 years ago (lack of energy being the main thing, he runs marathons so notices that specifically). Only very minor evidence to support the theory that it was around long before we knew about it over here and that he may have been unlucky enough to get a double dose).
		
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I think there's been more than enough minor bits of evidence to make a substantive case that this was over here well before it was officially recognised; 3 or 4 months before the pandemic was declared that I'm aware of.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2021)

HID went back to school yesterday (week off post op) and 7 teachers and 23 kids off (one teacher, vaxed in a very serious condition). We have four in, one vaxed. Not sure about the announcement tonight about mandatory jabs, including people like ward clerks (although my team are fully dosed - some waiting on booster) and how we're going to police that and how it'll impact retention, and what will happen about trying to plug the inevitable gaps


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID went back to school yesterday (week off post op) and 7 teachers and 23 kids off (one teacher, vaxed in a very serious condition). We have four in, one vaxed. Not sure about the announcement tonight about mandatory jabs, including people like ward clerks (although my team are fully dosed - some waiting on booster) and how we're going to police that and how it'll impact retention, and what will happen about trying to plug the inevitable gaps
		
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Easy to police, the jabs show on your NHS record.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Easy to police, the jabs show on your NHS record.
		
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In theory, but with nearly 6,000 staff all working different shift patterns not sure how easy it'll be for a team to get to see everyone in a timely manner and so bound to get a few slipping through the net or not getting their record checked for a good few months. I'm not arguing about the proposal (which personally I agree with) but can see it being an admin headache and where does the responsibility fall. Lead nurse/matron on each ward, HR, CEO/board?


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 9, 2021)

HR - Surely there's a HR dept with a personnel file for each front line employee which will/( can be made to) show vaccinated status?
Press a button once a day/week and database will throw up the unvaccinated?
Or something very similar.....


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			HR - Surely there's a HR dept with a personnel file for each front line employee which will/( can be made to) show vaccinated status?
Press a button once a day/week and database will throw up the unvaccinated?
Or something very similar.....
		
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Don't doubt there is a database somewhere. Just not sure HR will be too fussed (or organised knowing our HR as I do). I know our medical workforce team (looking after doctors only) are already seriously understaffed and over stretched so can't see them being in any position to check the doctors coherently. I'm not disagreeing with your point, just pointing out it may not be a straightforward task. We have many staff that work nights only so I can't see HR staying late or getting there for handover at 7.00am to look at those and follow it up


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## 4LEX (Nov 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			HR - Surely there's a HR dept with a personnel file for each front line employee which will/( can be made to) show vaccinated status?
Press a button once a day/week and database will throw up the unvaccinated?
Or something very similar.....
		
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This is the NHS we're talking about. Stuff like that will take years to enforce properly.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't doubt there is a database somewhere. Just not sure HR will be too fussed (or organised knowing our HR as I do). I know our medical workforce team (looking after doctors only) are already seriously understaffed and over stretched so can't see them being in any position to check the doctors coherently. I'm not disagreeing with your point, just pointing out it may not be a straightforward task. We have many staff that work nights only so I can't see HR staying late or getting there for handover at 7.00am to look at those and follow it up
		
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Don't you just get people to affirm they have been vaccinated, if it's found they lied then they get dismissed and maybe prosecuted.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't doubt there is a database somewhere. Just not sure HR will be too fussed (or organised knowing our HR as I do). I know our medical workforce team (looking after doctors only) are already seriously understaffed and over stretched so can't see them being in any position to check the doctors coherently. I'm not disagreeing with your point, just pointing out it may not be a straightforward task. We have many staff that work nights only so I can't see HR staying late or getting there for handover at 7.00am to look at those and follow it up
		
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Isn't this just a one time thing? You've got a list of staff and all you have to do is confirm that each one of them is double jabbed. It's not like you've got to check all of them every day, once you've confirmed they're done then that's it. It's more than 140 days until this kicks in on 1st April so with the 6000 staff you say you've got that means that if you check 43 each day then you'll be finished well ahead of the deadline - and that's assuming that all of the 6000 are patient facing or aren't exempt. Is it really that difficult to catch up with these staff on their lunch break and confirm that they are double jabbed?


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## Leftitshort (Nov 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you equating the anti-vaxx propaganda with the scientific community's comments and publications?
		
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Nope. Just saying that as per the article there are versions of truth. It was in response to sockets post. Change the dates, different impression of the same info. It’s not anti anything, but I know you appreciate how data can be manipulated.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Don't doubt there is a database somewhere. Just not sure HR will be too fussed (or organised knowing our HR as I do). I know our medical workforce team (looking after doctors only) are already seriously understaffed and over stretched so can't see them being in any position to check the doctors coherently. I'm not disagreeing with your point, just pointing out it may not be a straightforward task. We have many staff that work nights only so I can't see HR staying late or getting there for handover at 7.00am to look at those and follow it up
		
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Nah, can't be having  that. HR not too fussed?
Each employees records show D of B, address etc. Just needs another field showing Vax status. ?
Call up the database to show those not vaxed, and bingo, there's a list.
That's what computers are for.
Also, if NHS can look at a computer putting in my NHS number and find out if I've been vaxed, then putting in the NHS numbers of NHS employees will show the same, won't it?


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## Foxholer (Nov 9, 2021)

I'm unconvinced that requiring NHS staff to get full vaccination will prevent the spread! There's even an argument that it could contribute to the spread!
However, it will mean that more NHS staff are available to care for pandemic, or other, cases.
That 'said', I can't understand why any NHS staff member has/would not be vaccinated!


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## Foxholer (Nov 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Nah, can't be having  that. HR not too fussed?
Each employees records show D of B, address etc. Just needs another field showing Vax status. ?
Call up the database to show those not vaxed, and bingo, there's a list.
That's what computers are for.
Also, if NHS can look at a computer putting in my NHS number and find out if I've been vaxed, then putting in the NHS numbers of NHS employees will show the same, won't it?
		
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There are significant Privacy/Data Protection issues involved!


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## 4LEX (Nov 9, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'm unconvinced that requiring NHS staff to get full vaccination will prevent the spread! *There's even an argument that it could contribute to the spread!*
However, it will mean that more NHS staff are available to care for pandemic, or other, cases.
I can't understand why any NHS staff member has/would not be vaccinated!
		
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What argument would this be?


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 10, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Nah, can't be having  that. HR not too fussed?
Each employees records show D of B, address etc. Just needs another field showing Vax status. ?
Call up the database to show those not vaxed, and bingo, there's a list.
That's what computers are for.
Also, if NHS can look at a computer putting in my NHS number and find out if I've been vaxed, then putting in the NHS numbers of NHS employees will show the same, won't it?
		
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I’ve been waiting nearly three years for my duplicated NHS number to be sorted.
I go to a hospital for an emergency unconscious not being able to explain and I could end up 6 foot under.

Your relying on back office staff that are like most businesses wholly incompetent, disinterested lazy and ready for the weekend.


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

4LEX said:



			What argument would this be?
		
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Notwithstanding (or even As per!) what Ethan posted in 21853....Because being vaccinated supresses the symptoms, someone who is vaccinated, but becomes infected, can continue to spread the virus unknowingly!
Vaccination (greatly) reduces the effects of having the virus, but it's (either) the prevention of its spread - or 'herd immunity' - that will reduce the infection rate/count.


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			The misinformation around covid is scary on both sides. Anyone who wants a true picture really has to look quite hard for it. It’s become politicised & monetised now.
the below isn’t making a specific point but more to illustrate

https://fullfact.org/health/amanda-pritchard-nhs-hospitalisations/

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Ah! The difference a single word (in this case 'had') can make! And, even then, the headline value appears to have been vastly overstated.
Unsurprisingly for news article, (though actually, rather unusually from 'Full Fact') the rebuttal also makes dodgy claims....The 7k-ish in hospital on 5.11.21 is NOT '1.6 times lower' than the 11k-ish on 5/11/20!


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Are you equating the anti-vaxx propaganda with the scientific community's comments and publications?
		
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In this case - as the 'culprit' is the CEO of NHS England - it would appear so!
If 'anti-vaxx propaganda' is to be countered - as I believe it should/must be - then 'B-S from authorities' examples such as that quoted must be eliminated!


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## SaintHacker (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Notwithstanding (or even As per!) what Ethan posted in 21853....Because being vaccinated supresses the symptoms, someone who is vaccinated, but becomes infected, can continue to spread the virus unknowingly!
Vaccination (greatly) reduces the effects of having the virus, but it's (either) the prevention of its spread - or 'herd immunity' - that will reduce the infection rate/count.
		
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This simply isn't true, Ethan has posted this many times on this thread!



Ethan said:



			I*t is not actually correct. It does not only influence severity.*

Vaccination does the following:

Reduces likelihood of infection
Reduces likelihood of an infection that occurs despite above resulting in hospitalisation or death
*Reduces transmission, due to reduced chance of being infected but also reduced viral load (likely also part of reason for reduced severity)*
Reduces prevalence of infection in community

Remember that when vaccines were first put into clinical trials, the hoped for effect was a 60% or better reduction in cases. The actual results were much higher. But at no point was it ever suggested that they would stop all cases, or last forever. I was a massive supporter of primary vaccination, less so for boosters (although I will have mine). But I am a big fan of taking updated vaccines that cover new variants. Pfizer has results on a version updated for delta due out soon.
		
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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 10, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’ve been waiting nearly three years for my duplicated NHS number to be sorted.
I go to a hospital for an emergency unconscious not being able to explain and I could end up 6 foot under.

Your relying on back office staff that are like most businesses wholly incompetent, disinterested lazy and ready for the weekend.
		
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I take what you are saying re human frailties of staff etc.( BTW, your case is an utter disgrace. I know it's expense, but would a solicitor acting for you not focus them better?)
What I was alluding to more was a system. I cannot see it being the case that the NHS would not have a computer system bringing up employees details 
( they must have one already) without it being able to have a field for vax status.
If the CEO of each hospital cannot then get their PA to bring up the list of unvaxed each week, then we are in a bad way.😀


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			In this case - as the 'culprit' is the CEO of NHS England - it would appear so!
If 'anti-vaxx propaganda' is to be countered - as I believe it should/must be - then 'B-S from authorities' examples such as that quoted must be eliminated!
		
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The CEO of NHSE is *NOT* part of the scientific community. She is an administrator who may have risen to, or beyond, the level of her competence.


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’ve been waiting nearly three years for my duplicated NHS number to be sorted.
I go to a hospital for an emergency unconscious not being able to explain and I could end up 6 foot under.

Your relying on back office staff that are like most businesses wholly incompetent, disinterested lazy and ready for the weekend.
		
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Well, if you are unconscious, you can't explain much.

I would be shocked if any ED in the UK would withhold or delay appropriate emergency treatment for anyone just because they don't have an NHS number.


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			This simply isn't true, Ethan has posted this many times on this thread!
		
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Note how often the word 'reduces' appears in Ethan's post(s). And how 'eliminates' does not! It's still up to individuals to continue to protect themselves and others by continuing 'good practice'!
While I certainly agree that vaccination is highly desirable - and have already posted that I can't understand why NHS folk would be reluctant to do so - I'm merely pointing out that being vaccinated does not, of itself, eliminate the problem - and can breed complacency! I have personal experience of the danger of that complacency, though fortunately was not adversely affected, as I continued to 'keep my distance' from a vaxed fellow worker who was the likely spredder of the virus to a dozen or so others!


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Note how often the word 'reduces' appears in Ethan's post(s). And how 'eliminates' does not! It's still up to individuals to continue to protect themselves and others by continuing 'good practice'!
While I certainly agree that vaccination is highly desirable - and have already posted that I can't understand why NHS folk would be reluctant to do so - I'm merely pointing out that being vaccinated does not, of itself, eliminate the problem - and can breed complacency! I have personal experience of the danger of that complacency, though fortunately was not adversely affected, as I continued to 'keep my distance' from a vaxed fellow worker who was the likely spredder of the virus to a dozen or so others!
		
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No vaccines, and hardly any medicine, eliminates (prevents 100%) cases. The vaccines were hoped to reduce (that word again) 60%+ of cases, but it actually does a lot better. 

Flu vaccines struggle to reach 60%. 

I agree that vaccines are not a reason not to practice hygiene measures, and I think masks, hand washing's ventilation and social distancing are still very important.


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No vaccines, and hardly any medicine, eliminates (prevents 100%) cases. The vaccines were hoped to reduce (that word again) 60%+ of cases, but it actually does a lot better.

Flu vaccines struggle to reach 60%.

I agree that vaccines are not a reason not to practice hygiene measures, and I think masks, hand washing's ventilation and social distancing are still very important.
		
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Thanks for 'confirming' my point - which seems to have been interpreted rather more 'negatively' by some than I had intended!

I'm a little surprised how low the efficacy of Flu vaccines are. Adds to my thoughts that, at least presently in otherwise good health (though somewhat imobilised by a 'brand new' hip - #2), that I shouldn't bother with it. A couple of days of feeling low is no biggie for the antibodies generated 'naturally'.


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Thanks for 'confirming' my point - which seems to have been interpreted rather more 'negatively' by some than I had intended!

I'm a little surprised how low the efficacy of Flu vaccines are. Adds to my thoughts that, at least presently in otherwise good health (though somewhat imobilised by a 'brand new' hip - #2), that I shouldn't bother with it. A couple of days of feeling low is no biggie for the antibodies generated 'naturally'.
		
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Flu is a good example of where the benefit-risk varies across the population such that it is wise for some but probably unnecessary for others. Covid will end up in the same place too, and some countries have already identified such a split in their booster strategies. The UK is pressing on with a general population booster, albeit staged, but I think that is part;y due to the higher use of AZ here.


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Flu is a good example of where the benefit-risk varies across the population such that it is wise for some but probably unnecessary for others. Covid will end up in the same place too, and some countries have already identified such a split in their booster strategies. The UK is pressing on with a general population booster, albeit staged, but I think that is part;y due to the higher use of AZ here.
		
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I'll certainly be taking up my 'offer' of the booster that I 'deferred' immediately prior to my hip op - as soon as I can get mobile enough to get to a site! Just as well that I did defer it...I walked into the ward to observe a discussion between patient and meds who convinced the patient to defer his op (maybe a knee replacement) because of the possible (potentially fatal) clash of the booster with anasthetic! He defered/agreed to defer his op for 2-3 months!


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'll certainly be taking up my 'offer' of the booster that I 'deferred' immediately prior to my hip op - as soon as I can get mobile enough to get to a site! Just as well that I did defer it...I walked into the ward to observe a discussion between patient and meds who convinced the patient to defer his op (maybe a knee replacement) because of the possible (potentially fatal) clash of the booster with anasthetic! He defered/agreed to defer his op for 2-3 months!
		
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? Potentially fatal clash of his booster and an anaesthetic? That sounds like a load of Pro V1s.


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			? Potentially fatal clash of his booster and an anaesthetic? That sounds like a load of Pro V1s.
		
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Yeah, I was never entirely convinced! Just relating the event! Hip/knee replacement seem to be something of a 'treadmill' op, so maybe Docs were simply trying to keep things simple/minimize risk!


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah, I was never entirely convinced! Just relating the event! Hip/knee replacement seem to be something of a 'treadmill' op, so maybe Docs were simply trying to keep things simple/minimize risk!
		
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Anaesthetics have a short duration of effect. Total knee replacements are usually done under regional rather than general. They can be tricky because the knee is not an anatomically well designed joint, so revision work is sometimes needed. Hips are much more straightforward, much better designed joint. 

Covid vax does not interfere with anaesthetic effectiveness and anaesthetics do not interfere with Covid vax effectiveness. I suspect they might have been trying to manage waiting lists using spurious arguments. Waiting lists for TKRs are currently hideous due to the cancellation of elective surgery.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 10, 2021)

All boosted, very efficient service again and a 15 minute “sit” afterwards before being released.👍🏻


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## Hobbit (Nov 10, 2021)

Boostered today and, as we’d previous heard, if there’s a second person in the car and they are due in the next few months they get done too. Double result.


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## DRW (Nov 10, 2021)

Heres comes the boosters  (green line, we need those as close to 100 as possible, for in the main the oldest ages, as immune system just doesn't work as effectively as the younger groups pre or post infection)

Made me happy to see, the turn around starting in those groups. Hopefully help with protecting them.

Some more details here :-

John Roberts on Twitter: "The latest antibody survey from ONS is now showing increases at the older ages, consistent with the booster programme starting to take effect. 👏👏👏 Data is to 24th October, so a little more lagged than the weekly infection survey. 1/ https://t.co/R1PkLKIpsd" / Twitter


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## Backache (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'll certainly be taking up my 'offer' of the booster that I 'deferred' immediately prior to my hip op - as soon as I can get mobile enough to get to a site! Just as well that I did defer it...I walked into the ward to observe a discussion between patient and meds who convinced the patient to defer his op (maybe a knee replacement) because of the possible (potentially fatal) clash of the booster with anasthetic! He defered/agreed to defer his op for 2-3 months!
		
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There is no evidence of any risk of vaccination and anaesthesia, there may be a minor concern that things like fever which can develop immediately following vaccination may e confused with infection thus postponing surgery for joint replacement, so advice may be not to have the vaccination immediately before planned surgery.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 10, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Note how often the word 'reduces' appears in Ethan's post(s). And how 'eliminates' does not! It's still up to individuals to continue to protect themselves and others by continuing 'good practice'!
While I certainly agree that vaccination is highly desirable - and have already posted that I can't understand why NHS folk would be reluctant to do so - I'm merely pointing out that being vaccinated does not, of itself, eliminate the problem - and can breed complacency! I have personal experience of the danger of that complacency, though fortunately was not adversely affected, as I continued to 'keep my distance' from a vaxed fellow worker who was the likely spredder of the virus to a dozen or so others!
		
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Your post that I quoted implies that the vacc does nothing to stop transmission. We know this to be false. I agree we still need to be careful as a vaccinated person can still transmit the virus but the fact is its a lot lower chance than from someone who is unvaccinated.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Are the Covid-19 lateral-flow rapid antigen home test kits reliable ?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Are the Covid-19 lateral-flow rapid antigen home test kits reliable ?
		
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If you get a positive from a LFT then there is a high likelihood (99% ish I think) that you do have Covid. If you get a negative result then that doesn't mean that you definitely don't have it. A false negative is a lot more likely than a false positive.

EDIT - and a lot of it comes down to the user. If the swab is not done correctly, or for long enough, or the swab isn't left in the liquid for long enough can all lead to false negatives.


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## road2ruin (Nov 10, 2021)

_"Over 65's could be banned from public spaces if they do not have their booster"._

Quite right, these selfish older people not doing enough to protect the younger generations!!


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## Old Skier (Nov 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Are the Covid-19 lateral-flow rapid antigen home test kits reliable ?
		
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Yep


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## Foxholer (Nov 10, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Your post that I quoted implies that the vacc does nothing to stop transmission. We know this to be false. I agree we still need to be careful as a vaccinated person can still transmit the virus but the fact is its a lot lower chance than from someone who is unvaccinated.
		
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That's certainly NOT what I meant, nor, imo, what I wrote! You've misinterpreted it. Try re-reading it.


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## jim8flog (Nov 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Are the Covid-19 lateral-flow rapid antigen home test kits reliable ?
		
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 They made me really did not know my anatomy and exactly where my tonsils are. Newer kits are nose swabs only which is a slight problem for me as sticking a swab up one nostril can cause it to bleed and I am sure the swab goes further inside one nostril than the other. So here is to hoping a good swab round one nostril gives a decent enough result.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, if you are unconscious, you can't explain much.

I would be shocked if any ED in the UK would withhold or delay appropriate emergency treatment for anyone just because they don't have an NHS number.
		
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I have an NHS number which became muddled with someone else’s record along side mine. 
Whoever’s record it is has serious liver issues and has been in out of the doctors for most his life. Keep getting letters from some professsor from Barts Trust regarding appointments missed.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 10, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			They made me really did not know my anatomy and exactly where my tonsils are. Newer kits are nose swabs only which is a slight problem for me as sticking a swab up one nostril can cause it to bleed and I am sure the swab goes further inside one nostril than the other. So here is to hoping a good swab round one nostril gives a decent enough result.
		
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I had no problems doing the tests, I did 4 in ten days all negative. But I've had a chesty cough with some green phlegm yuk.
I told the doctor's receptionist my symptoms and testing  history when I ask for an appointment.
She said  home test aren't reliable and I should go for a test centre test.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I had no problems doing the tests, I did 4 in ten days all negative. But I've had a chesty cough with some green phlegm yuk.
I told the doctor's receptionist my symptoms and testing  history when I ask for an appointment.
She said  home test aren't reliable and I should go for a test centre test.
		
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Not 100% sure on this but I think that home LFT's are more accurate for those without symptoms. If you have symptoms then the PCR test is what you need to take.


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not 100% sure on this but I think that home LFT's are more accurate for those without symptoms. If you have symptoms then the PCR test is what you need to take.
		
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You are correct, as was the doctor's receptionist. PCR for symptoms.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are correct, as was the doctor's receptionist. PCR for symptoms.
		
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Do you think my chesty phlegmy cough could be a Covid symptom ?. I've had this for nearly a year with temp of 36.5, no sore throat, no other symptoms.
12 months ago the doctor prescribed Mometasone furoate nasal spray, by phone appointment
She refused to prescribe antibiotics.


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## Ethan (Nov 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Do you think my chesty phlegmy cough could be a Covid symptom ?. I've had this for nearly a year with temp of 36.5, no sore throat, no other symptoms.
12 months ago the doctor prescribed Mometasone furoate nasal spray, by phone appointment
She refused to prescribe antibiotics.
		
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Most chest infections/upper respiratory tract infections are viral, so antibiotics won’t do anything. If you had purulent sputum, more likely to be bacterial. 

You should get a PCR. Symptoms are less clear than first thought, although this is the time of year when lots of other lurgy is flying around, so the test could well still be negative.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 10, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Most chest infections/upper respiratory tract infections are viral, so antibiotics won’t do anything. If you had purulent sputum, more likely to be bacterial.

You should get a PCR. Symptoms are less clear than first thought, although this is the time of year when lots of other lurgy is flying around, so the test could well still be negative.
		
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Green phlegm/ sputum, sounds bacterial to me, but doctors are now reluctant to prescribe antibiotics.
And trying to get a face to face appointment , .
Update-I've just booked a drive through PCR test for 3 pm Thursday, fingers crossed


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## Ethan (Nov 11, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Green phlegm/ sputum, sounds bacterial to me, but doctors are now reluctant to prescribe antibiotics.
And trying to get a face to face appointment , .
Update-I've just booked a drive through PCR test for 3 pm Thursday, fingers crossed
		
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I used to work on a chest ward, and green sputum is ubiquitous among chest infections. There is a lost art of inspecting sputum jars and judging the nature of the infection. Back in those days we offered antibiotics a bit too enthusiastically and gradually people stopped responding to them, and MRSA and similar appeared, so policy shifted to restricting liberal use of antibiotics. 

If someone has symptoms as described, they need a PCR. If they have features of a probable bacterial infection, purulent sputum, fever, pleuritic pain (symptom of pneumonia) then a carefully chosen antibiotic might be fine.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 11, 2021)

So, something and nothing, received the Pfizer jab for my first 2 jabs and no issues whatsoever, had my booster yesterday, again Pfizer, and arm is sore, feels heavy to lift, amost like a bad “dead arm” you got as a kid when punched by a mate.


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## chrisd (Nov 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So, something and nothing, received the Pfizer jab for my first 2 jabs and no issues whatsoever, had my booster yesterday, again Pfizer, and arm is sore, feels heavy to lift, amost like a bad “dead arm” you got as a kid when punched by a mate.
		
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My doctor friend had exactly the same happen


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## Billysboots (Nov 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			My doctor friend had exactly the same happen
		
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And me. Only lasted 24 hours though.


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## arnieboy (Nov 11, 2021)

Golf Club Carol Concert cancelled as there are concerns about lots of members and their family and friends singing their hearts out in a confined space.


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			So, something and nothing, received the Pfizer jab for my first 2 jabs and no issues whatsoever, had my booster yesterday, again Pfizer, and arm is sore, feels heavy to lift, amost like a bad “dead arm” you got as a kid when punched by a mate.
		
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Same here. I had Moderna jab 10 days ago, no pain but a bit of swelling. Bruise developed on second day, its now yellow/blue and size of an orange. 

Operator error I reckon!


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## williamalex1 (Nov 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I used to work on a chest ward, and green sputum is ubiquitous among chest infections. There is a lost art of inspecting sputum jars and judging the nature of the infection. Back in those days we offered antibiotics a bit too enthusiastically and gradually people stopped responding to them, and MRSA and similar appeared, so policy shifted to restricting liberal use of antibiotics.

If someone has symptoms as described, they need a PCR. If they have features of a probable bacterial infection, purulent sputum, fever, pleuritic pain (symptom of pneumonia) then a carefully chosen antibiotic might be fine.
		
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Much appreciated Ethan,  thank you.


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## Ethan (Nov 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			Same here. I had Moderna jab 10 days ago, no pain but a bit of swelling. Bruise developed on second day, its now yellow/blue and size of an orange.

Operator error I reckon!
		
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Hit a small (or not so small) blood vessel. It happens, usually no great harm caused. Operator error, or perhaps operator misfortune.


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Hit a small (or not so small) blood vessel. It happens, usually no great harm caused. Operator error, or perhaps operator misfortune.
		
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She was very pleasant and attractive so I guess if No pain no gain !


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## Ethan (Nov 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			She was very pleasant and attractive so I guess if No pain no gain !

Click to expand...

Maybe she was nervous dealing with you!


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## D-S (Nov 11, 2021)

An interesting thread re vaccination rates and the effect on cases across Europe.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458748570908168197


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## Tongo (Nov 11, 2021)

Recevied my first piece of COVID related abuse today. Got called a p***y for opening the chiller cabinet in the local Tescos with my elbow. I suspect that me wearing a mask also attracted the attention of this charmless nerk.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 11, 2021)

D-S said:



			An interesting thread re vaccination rates and the effect on cases across Europe.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458748570908168197

Click to expand...

I'm sure BBC 5 Live said that cases were 10K (approx) higher today than last Thursday and deaths were around 50 higher. Only caught the end of it as I got into the car so might have misheard. But if not let's hope that it is an anomaly and not a trend.


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## Old Skier (Nov 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm sure BBC 5 Live said that cases were 10K (approx) higher today than last Thursday and deaths were around 50 higher. Only caught the end of it as I got into the car so might have misheard. But if not let's hope that it is an anomaly and not a trend.
		
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274


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## SocketRocket (Nov 11, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm sure BBC 5 Live said that cases were 10K (approx) higher today than last Thursday and deaths were around 50 higher. Only caught the end of it as I got into the car so might have misheard. But if not let's hope that it is an anomaly and not a trend.
		
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Not looking great for older people in my area.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 11, 2021)

Not affecting me but it's interesting to see what is happening in Austria right now. Infections are going up in the unvaccinated so the govt are looking at expanding their vaccine passport scheme and effectively creating a lockdown for the unvaccinated whilst allowing the vaccinated to carry on with a relatively normal life. A comment along the lines of a third of the country should not be able to restrict the freedoms of the majority by their actions, only they should suffer the consequences. 

I don't think it is going to cover all of the country but it will affect a good chunk. Bold and controversial.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Maybe she was nervous dealing with you!
		
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Or she was short sighted


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 11, 2021)

drdel said:



*She was very pleasant and attractive *so I guess if No pain no gain !

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Disappointing; I didn't have you down as that shallow


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## Beezerk (Nov 11, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not affecting me but it's interesting to see what is happening in Austria right now. Infections are going up in the unvaccinated so the govt are looking at expanding their vaccine passport scheme and effectively creating a lockdown for the unvaccinated whilst allowing the vaccinated to carry on with a relatively normal life. A comment along the lines of a third of the country should not be able to restrict the freedoms of the majority by their actions, only they should suffer the consequences. 

I don't think it is going to cover all of the country but it will affect a good chunk. Bold and controversial.
		
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Yes, just read that on the bbc website, fair play to them.
Imagine them trying that in the UK, the government would be accused of being Nazi sympathisers by the anti vaxxers ffs.


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## road2ruin (Nov 11, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Yes, just read that on the bbc website, fair play to them.
Imagine them trying that in the UK, the government would be accused of being Nazi sympathisers by the anti vaxxers ffs.
		
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To be fair I can’t imagine the Australians will take it very well either. I’ve got (vaxxed) friends over there who are already fed up with the police state they’re now living in and the police have been doing a good impression of the Gestapo in some instances.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair I can’t imagine the Australians will take it very well either. I’ve got (vaxxed) friends over there who are already fed up with the police state they’re now living in and the police have been doing a good impression of the Gestapo in some instances.
		
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Good job it's in Austria then


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## fundy (Nov 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair I can’t imagine the Australians will take it very well either. I’ve got (vaxxed) friends over there who are already fed up with the police state they’re now living in and the police have been doing a good impression of the Gestapo in some instances.
		
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Pretty sure the Aussies will be fine 😂


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## road2ruin (Nov 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Good job it's in Austria then 

Click to expand...

😂 Need to get my Atlas out….


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## BiMGuy (Nov 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair I can’t imagine the Australians will take it very well either. I’ve got (vaxxed) friends over there who are already fed up with the police state they’re now living in and the police have been doing a good impression of the Gestapo in some instances.
		
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Normal police standards for Aus then?


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## road2ruin (Nov 11, 2021)

Although whilst we’re on the topic of Austria they’re attempts at increasing vaccination levels are certainly more creative than others….


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## drdel (Nov 11, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Disappointing; I didn't have you down as that shallow 

Click to expand...

At my age I'm eternally grateful everything still works (including my imagination ) and "shallow" is fine


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2021)

Singapore set to refuse to cover medical bills of Coronavirus sufferers who choose not to be jabbed.


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## D-S (Nov 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Not looking great for older people in my area.

View attachment 39462

Click to expand...

In the interests of balance, things are getting better for older people (and younger) in my area.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Nov 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Singapore set to refuse to cover medical bills of Coronavirus sufferers who choose not to be jabbed.
		
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Good.
More of the same please


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## road2ruin (Nov 11, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Singapore set to refuse to cover medical bills of Coronavirus sufferers who choose not to be jabbed.
		
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I may be in the minority but this makes me uncomfortable and could be a slippery slope. 

Government is allowed to get away with this citing Covid but what’s to stop them coming back in a few years and saying they won’t treat drug or alcohol addicts or overweight people etc etc. You might claim that it’d never happen however they’ve already set a precedent here.


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## Hobbit (Nov 11, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I may be in the minority but this makes me uncomfortable and could be a slippery slope.

Government is allowed to get away with this citing Covid but what’s to stop them coming back in a few years and saying they won’t treat drug or alcohol addicts or overweight people etc etc. You might claim that it’d never happen however they’ve already set a precedent here.
		
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Govts might seize all petrol fuelled cars…. Paranoia? I’ll worry about it when it happens.

Not exactly a great vote getter?


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I may be in the minority but this makes me uncomfortable and could be a slippery slope.

Government is allowed to get away with this citing Covid but what’s to stop them coming back in a few years and saying they won’t treat drug or alcohol addicts or overweight people etc etc. You might claim that it’d never happen however they’ve already set a precedent here.
		
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Drugs, alcoholism and obesity aren't contagious.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I may be in the minority but this makes me uncomfortable and could be a slippery slope.

Government is allowed to get away with this citing Covid but what’s to stop them coming back in a few years and saying they won’t treat drug or alcohol addicts or overweight people etc etc. You might claim that it’d never happen however they’ve already set a precedent here.
		
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Very uncomfortable indeed. 
If they did bring no medical treatment in for unvaccinated then they should be consistent and not treat those you’ve listed alongside those who live nothing but a pure healthy vegan life.  They should also get a rebate from the treasury and reduced tax payments.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Very uncomfortable indeed.
If they did bring no medical treatment in for unvaccinated then they should be consistent and not treat those you’ve listed alongside those who live nothing but a pure healthy vegan life.  They should also get a rebate from the treasury and reduced tax payments.
		
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How about doctors and nurses who are un-vaccinated, should they be allowed to treat patients?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Very uncomfortable indeed.
If they did bring no medical treatment in for unvaccinated then they should be consistent and not treat those you’ve listed alongside those who live nothing but a pure healthy vegan life.  They should also get a rebate from the treasury and reduced tax payments.
		
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If my Aunt had a willy she'd be my Uncle.


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## Foxholer (Nov 12, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Singapore set to refuse to cover medical bills of Coronavirus sufferers who choose not to be jabbed.
		
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road2ruin said:



			I may be in the minority but this makes me uncomfortable and could be a slippery slope.

Government is allowed to get away with this citing Covid but what’s to stop them coming back in a few years and saying they won’t treat drug or alcohol addicts or overweight people etc etc. You might claim that it’d never happen however they’ve already set a precedent here.
		
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The Singapore government DOES have a fairly unique way to 'incentivise' public behaviour!


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## Ethan (Nov 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			How about doctors and nurses who are un-vaccinated, should they be allowed to treat patients?
		
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No, in my opinion. The NHS already requires staff who deal directly with patients and are exposed to possible blood contamination, to have hepatitis B vaccination. I don't see how Covid, which is more prevalent and more transmissible, should be different.

On Singapore, it is a much more authoritarian society, and the public are given clear expectations in multiple areas of life about how they are expected to behave, and what the consequences will be if they don't. In a way, failure to accept vaccination without a good reason is a form of negligence in using the society's resources, and in the Singaporean culture, carries sanctions.

Perhaps people who don't want vaccination here should be required to have a tattoo on the chest saying "No ventilation for Covid, please".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2021)

Heard this morning from a close friend…double vaxed…feeling really grim, PCR test comes back positive.  I know the vax isn’t virus-proofing but it’s still a bit worrying when someone close and double-vaxed contracts it and becomes really quite poorly.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard this morning from a close friend…double vaxed…feeling really grim, PCR test comes back positive.  I know the vax isn’t virus-proofing but it’s still a bit worrying when someone close and double-vaxed contracts it and becomes really quite poorly.
		
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But still alive. Chances are that without the double vax, they wouldnt be.


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## Backache (Nov 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Drugs, alcoholism and obesity aren't contagious.
		
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Depends what you mean by contagious.
People are highly immitative if you move to a society where many others are obese or addicted,  you will be far more likely to become obese or addicted.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard this morning from a close friend…double vaxed…feeling really grim, PCR test comes back positive.  I know the vax isn’t virus-proofing but it’s still a bit worrying when someone close and double-vaxed contracts it and becomes really quite poorly.
		
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The very reason I'm still being very cautious. I was lucky when I caught it last time and, either way, who wants to feel rough for a week or so...


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## SaintHacker (Nov 12, 2021)

Backache said:



			Depends what you mean by contagious.
People are highly immitative if you move to a society where many others are obese or addicted,  you will be far more likely to become obese or addicted.
		
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There's clutching at straws and then some. Are you actually suggesting an alcoholic potentially turns everyone they come into close contact with into an alcoholic also?


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## SaintHacker (Nov 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If my Aunt had a willy she'd be my Uncle.
		
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But would she? You know full well you can't go around assuming his/her/their/whatever gender, willy or not!


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But would she?
		
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She could be, especially if she was called Bob


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## Ethan (Nov 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Heard this morning from a close friend…double vaxed…feeling really grim, PCR test comes back positive.  I know the vax isn’t virus-proofing but it’s still a bit worrying when someone close and double-vaxed contracts it and becomes really quite poorly.
		
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Is your friend at home? If so, they are a long way short of grim. Grim is when the ICU doctor is measuring you up for a endo-tracheal (breathing) tube for the ventilator. 

It would be interesting to know (maintaining their anonymity) when your friend had the vaccines, which brand and whether they have any additional risk factors (age, other conditions). It could be that they have dodged a bullet and got a nasty hangover instead of a spell in ICU, or were just unlucky and the vax didn't stimulate a decent immune response.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2021)

Backache said:



			Depends what you mean by contagious.
People are highly immitative if you move to a society where many others are obese or addicted,  you will be far more likely to become obese or addicted.
		
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Ever heard of willpower?   Blimey!


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## Billysboots (Nov 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			She could be, especially if she was called Bob  

Click to expand...

And she had a great, bushy beard and booming voice. Like Brian Blessed. 😇


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## Paperboy (Nov 12, 2021)

I've been out of isolation for a week now.

I'm double jabbed, felt like a bad head old, lose of smell (still) and a achy neck. Still suffering from a slight lack of energy but all in all feeling quite good.

Not too sure what it would have been like without a vaccine tbh.


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## Beezerk (Nov 12, 2021)

Was talking to a mate yesterday, his sister in law has lost the sight in one eye after having the booster jab, they reckon the sight has gone for good 😯
Still gonna book mine at the first opportunity 💪


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			The very reason I'm still being very cautious. I was lucky when I caught it last time and, either way, who wants to feel rough for a week or so...
		
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Exactly. But still behaving as if this thing is still about gets funny looks more and more now. Looking upon you as being paranoid when you decline this unnecessary invite etc.


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## Billysboots (Nov 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Exactly. But still behaving as if this thing is still about gets funny looks more and more now. Looking upon you as being paranoid when you decline this unnecessary invite etc.
		
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I think a balance needs to be found by each individual, and a lot are clearly struggling.

A friend of my wife’s is a classic case in point. Just turned 50, fit and well, married to a fella of the same age who is as fit as a flea. Both double jabbed.

She has not allowed a single person in her house since March 2020. She refuses to allow anyone in, including those double jabbed, showing no symptoms. If my wife goes for coffee she has to sit in the back garden whilst her friend sits in the conservatory, and they talk through the open door.

She hasn’t set foot in a shop, cafe, pub or restaurant for eighteen months. She has given up her job as she couldn’t work from home, despite measures being in place in her workplace.

This will doubtless sound cruel, but I actually think this behaviour is perhaps disproportionate to the risk this lady faces. Bizarrely, she seems quite content with her husband leading a virtually normal life, and as such he carries a risk of not only contracting Covid but also bringing it back to her.

Am I alone in thinking this is paranoia gone a little bit too far?


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## DRW (Nov 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			There's clutching at straws and then some. Are you actually suggesting an alcoholic potentially turns everyone they come into close contact with into an alcoholic also?
		
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YES!!! Are you actually saying it doesnt ? 

The harsh truth is that obesity does(and just looking at alcohol appears it does, see last link) , you may wish to read :-

Family lifestyle dynamics and childhood obesity: evidence from the millennium cohort study (nih.gov)
Obesity runs in families – and friends, too – Harvard Gazette
Does Alcoholism Run in Families? Why Alcoholism is a Family Disease (therecoveryvillage.com)

And lets cut though the politically correct stuff, being fat or obese is BAD for COVID, heart disease, diabetes, cancer and many other preventable diseases . Also due to diets, it means your immune system does not work as it should do and your vaccine reaction on average will be worse than an average weight person.

Weight and fitness is the things you can improve and reduce your call on the NHS and probably prolong your life and quality of life. Be normal weight everyone.

However I put forward a motion that if you are overweight or over the age of 50 :-

1) You should not get treatment if you need covid treatment
2) You should not be allowed outside your house.
3) You should not be allowed to work.


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## bobmac (Nov 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I think a balance *needs to be found by each individual,* and a lot are clearly struggling.
Am I alone in thinking this is paranoia gone a little bit too far?
		
Click to expand...

I think you've answered your own question. She obviously is happy and that's all that matters to her.


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## DRW (Nov 12, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I may be in the minority but this makes me uncomfortable and could be a slippery slope.

Government is allowed to get away with this citing Covid but what’s to stop them coming back in a few years and saying they won’t treat drug or alcohol addicts or overweight people etc etc. You might claim that it’d never happen however they’ve already set a precedent here.
		
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One thing I am learning over this pandemic, is that some of 'last years' conspiracy theories are this years realities. So who knows :shrugs shoulders:


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## Billysboots (Nov 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think you've answered your own question. She obviously is happy and that's all that matters to her.
		
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My ultimate point was that some are struggling to find a proportionate balance. This lady has a family. A husband leading a normal life, but two university age kids who haven’t been allowed back in their own home since September last year because their mum has heard all about how Covid is spread in educational environments, and she is terrified that they will infect her.

With the exception of walks, her and her husband haven’t been anywhere together for eighteen months. Nowhere. And I need to be very clear that this lady has no underlying health conditions.

So yes, I have answered my own question in part, but as I say, my point was that some are clearly struggling to strike a balance which is proportionate to the personal risk, this lady massively so in my opinion.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My ultimate point was that some are struggling to find a proportionate balance. This lady has a family. A husband leading a normal life, but two university age kids who haven’t been allowed back in their own home since September last year because their mum has heard all about how Covid is spread in educational environments, and she is terrified that they will infect her.

With the exception of walks, her and her husband haven’t been anywhere together for eighteen months. Nowhere. And I need to be very clear that this lady has no underlying health conditions.

So yes, I have answered my own question in part, but as I say, my point was that some are clearly struggling to strike a balance which is proportionate to the personal risk, this lady massively so in my opinion.
		
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It sounds as though this lady needs to speak to someone. She has taken matters to an extreme, that is no life.


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## DRW (Nov 12, 2021)

Paperboy said:



			I've been out of isolation for a week now.

I'm double jabbed, felt like a bad head old, lose of smell (still) and a achy neck. Still suffering from a slight lack of energy but all in all feeling quite good.

Not too sure what it would have been like without a vaccine tbh.
		
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Good to hear your okay Simon. Take care.


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## garyinderry (Nov 12, 2021)

I'm beginning to get my sense of smell back now. I got a waft of a chippy from about 10yards away. 

The first time I've been able to smell anything from a distance. 

Taste sensation is still toned down but much improved. 

Been 8 weeks.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My ultimate point was that some are struggling to find a proportionate balance. This lady has a family. A husband leading a normal life, but two university age kids who haven’t been allowed back in their own home since September last year because their mum has heard all about how Covid is spread in educational environments, and she is terrified that they will infect her.

With the exception of walks, her and her husband haven’t been anywhere together for eighteen months. Nowhere. And I need to be very clear that this lady has no underlying health conditions.

So yes, I have answered my own question in part, but as I say, my point was that some are clearly struggling to strike a balance which is proportionate to the personal risk, this lady massively so in my opinion.
		
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Yes you are correct here about her being OTT.
But my point was that behaviour which was recommended strongly, such as not going to large indoor meetings, (but  is now becoming commonplace despite ,in our area, anyway ,the figures being higher than they have ever been, ) is now attracting looks and comments.
Sense is retreating 😀


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## Backache (Nov 12, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			There's clutching at straws and then some. Are you actually suggesting an alcoholic potentially turns everyone they come into close contact with into an alcoholic also?
		
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No I'm not, nor does everyone with covid automatically infect everyone else they meet but you are more likely to get covid if you keep company of others with covid and more likely to become fat or an alcoholic if you keep company with alcoholics and the obese.
It is really pretty apparent that behaviours both desireable and undesireable are imitated both consciously but very often subconsciously and thus transmitted.


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## Ethan (Nov 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Was talking to a mate yesterday, his sister in law has lost the sight in one eye after having the booster jab, they reckon the sight has gone for good 😯
Still gonna book mine at the first opportunity 💪
		
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Really? What was the mechanism of the loss of sight - vascular? Do you know which vaccine they received?


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## Beezerk (Nov 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Really? What was the mechanism of the loss of sight - vascular? Do you know which vaccine they received?
		
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No idea, I’ll find out more when I pick him up for football tomorrow morning.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2021)

Backache said:



			No I'm not, nor does everyone with covid automatically infect everyone else they meet but you are more likely to get covid if you keep company of others with covid and more likely to become fat or an alcoholic if you keep company with alcoholics and the obese.
It is really pretty apparent that behaviours both desireable and undesireable are imitated both consciously but very often subconsciously and thus transmitted.
		
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You are using the wrong verb!
Behaviours are not transmitted.
Behaviours are what someone decides to do.
Unless we are talking Manchurian  Candidate stuff😀


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## Billysboots (Nov 12, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It sounds as though this lady needs to speak to someone. She has taken matters to an extreme, that is no life.
		
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They were my thoughts but I didn’t want to offend anyone by suggesting it.


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## Billysboots (Nov 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes you are correct here about her being OTT.
But my point was that behaviour which was recommended strongly, such as not going to large indoor meetings, (but  is now becoming commonplace despite ,in our area, anyway ,the figures being higher than they have ever been, ) is now attracting looks and comments.
Sense is retreating 😀
		
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Agreed. Funny looks for wearing masks are now common and certainly I am finding their use rapidly declining. I’ve been to two college open evenings this week - both rammed and not a mask in sight.


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## Backache (Nov 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are using the wrong verb!
Behaviours are not transmitted.
Behaviours are what someone decides to do.
Unless we are talking Manchurian  Candidate stuff😀
		
Click to expand...

Many behaviours are not what people decide to do at any form of conscious level. Virtually no one decides I will become obese or I will become an alcoholic.


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## Ethan (Nov 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You are using the wrong verb!
Behaviours are not transmitted.
Behaviours are what someone decides to do.
Unless we are talking Manchurian  Candidate stuff😀
		
Click to expand...

Behaviours can be conditioned, either by pharmacological or psycho-social mechanisms, and are not entirely, or even sometimes at all, volitional. I guarantee you have some such behaviours. We all do.


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## DRW (Nov 12, 2021)

Backache said:



			Many behaviours are not what people decide to do at any form of conscious level. Virtually no one decides I will become obese or I will become an alcoholic.
		
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Its so annoying, I notice stuff like that with me.

A slightly right of field example, I would hate it if I ever went on a cruise (its just not me, for so many reasons), so why the hell do when I watch an advert or talk about a cruise, I cant help myself thinking that looks/or would be nice and I fancy going.

The power of what you see, what you are told, what you experience and what you subconsciously learn, is a a powerful thing. Used by Sage, used by marketing people and so on. The abused become the abuser and so on. So many real life examples, in additions to medical studies carried out(Swinglow, have a read about it and the studies, it may open your eyes adn you will notice things about yourself).

Its a really interesting subject.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			They were my thoughts but I didn’t want to offend anyone by suggesting it.
		
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I'd be disappointed if someone took offence to that but I know where you are coming from. Closing off from the outside world like that is not good for you. 

She is not alone. Apart from other adults I know of parents with kids who have become paranoid through this. Strike fear into people often enough and some sticks pretty heftily eventually. People talked on here at the beginning of the long term consequences of this pandemic and the situation of this lady is a prime example.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 12, 2021)

DRW said:



			Its so annoying, I notice stuff like that with me.

A slightly right of field example, I would hate it if I ever went on a cruise (its just not me, for so many reasons), so why the hell do when I watch an advert or talk about a cruise, I cant help myself thinking that looks/or would be nice and I fancy going.
		
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I get seasick, the thought of cruising as a style of holiday strikes horror into me but those Viking River Cruise adverts sucker me in every time . It's a running joke in our house that I ooo and aahh every time one comes on without realising.


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## GB72 (Nov 12, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd be disappointed if someone took offence to that but I know where you are coming from. Closing off from the outside world like that is not good for you.

She is not alone. Apart from other adults I know of parents with kids who have become paranoid through this. Strike fear into people often enough and some sticks pretty heftily eventually. People talked on here at the beginning of the long term consequences of this pandemic and the situation of this lady is a prime example.
		
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I can honestly say that I was heading to the extremes of locking myself away and, ironically, what has really helped recently is more people getting covid. That may sound odd but before I knew very few people who had had it. Covid was like the bogeyman you never saw in a horror film, talked up by every exagerated story. Now, I have friends of my age, health level etc who have had it, some with mnor symptoms, some felt rough but no worse than other illnessed that they have had. That has made me no less cautious out and about but now I have seen covid a closer range, I do not have that fear of it being an instant death sentence that was lurking before.


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## GB72 (Nov 12, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get seasick, the thought of cruising as a style of holiday strikes horror into me but those Viking River Cruise adverts sucker me in every time . It's a running joke in our house that I ooo and aahh every time one comes on without realising.
		
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Yep, always look in horror at people being hurded like cattle when they come off cruise ships in the carribean but still see the adds and think that it looks nice


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 12, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get seasick, the thought of cruising as a style of holiday strikes horror into me but those Viking River Cruise adverts sucker me in every time . It's a running joke in our house that I ooo and aahh every time one comes on without realising.
		
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Mrs Colch wanted to go on a cruise. I've got absolutely no interest as I work on survey ships so when I'm off work I don't want to be getting back on a ship. Fortunately we went over to France a couple of years ago and she was seasick on the ferry over, even though it was almost flat calm. She hasn't mentioned going on a cruise since then.


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed. Funny looks for wearing masks are now common and certainly I am finding their use rapidly declining. I’ve been to two college open evenings this week - both rammed and not a mask in sight.
		
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I guess it’s different cultures. Over here 99% of people wear masks when in public buildings, shops etc. About 30% when wandering the streets but, perhaps an indication of the mindset, almost 100% of those wandering through the (crowded) village market were wearing masks.


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## HampshireHog (Nov 12, 2021)

So I had my 2nd jab 6 months ago next week, I’m not 50, but I was originally fast tracked as my child is classed as vulnerable, and I am a care giver.

Should I be able to book a booster?
119 advice says yes
119 booking says no
Website booking says no

Seems that age overrides any other reason why should be able to book your booster.


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## drdel (Nov 12, 2021)

DRW said:



			Its so annoying, I notice stuff like that with me.

A slightly right of field example, I would hate it if I ever went on a cruise (its just not me, for so many reasons), so why the hell do when I watch an advert or talk about a cruise, I cant help myself thinking that looks/or would be nice and I fancy going.

The power of what you see, what you are told, what you experience and what you subconsciously learn, is a a powerful thing. Used by Sage, used by marketing people and so on. The abused become the abuser and so on. So many real life examples, in additions to medical studies carried out(Swinglow, have a read about it and the studies, it may open your eyes adn you will notice things about yourself).

Its a really interesting subject.
		
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What I find funny, but somewhat worrying, is how we are continuously told  by the media that violence on TV and films etc does not increase the propensity to cause more violence.

Yet vast sums are spents on marketing and adverts which are designed to influence a viewer - I wonder why they waste their money if it has no effect.


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 12, 2021)

drdel said:



			What I find funny, but somewhat worrying, is how we are continuously told  by the media that violence on TV and films etc does not increase the propensity to cause more violence.

Yet vast sums are spents on marketing and adverts which are designed to influence a viewer - I wonder why they waste their money if it has no effect. 

Click to expand...

Perhaps most know right from wrong, but jealousy and wanting to appear better than your peers is prevelant


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Was talking to a mate yesterday, his sister in law has lost the sight in one eye after having the booster jab, they reckon the sight has gone for good 😯
Still gonna book mine at the first opportunity 💪
		
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That's not good but there is a joke in there. Sorry!


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## fundy (Nov 12, 2021)

Interesting article

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/12/...h4DmCKn9uv24tm9M8klNDQuQOM_MGOBgRtJvKAloKJWAs


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2021)

DRW said:



			Its so annoying, I notice stuff like that with me.

A slightly right of field example, I would hate it if I ever went on a cruise (its just not me, for so many reasons), so why the hell do when I watch an advert or talk about a cruise, I cant help myself thinking that looks/or would be nice and I fancy going.

The power of what you see, what you are told, what you experience and what you subconsciously learn, is a a powerful thing. Used by Sage, used by marketing people and so on. The abused become the abuser and so on. So many real life examples, in additions to medical studies carried out(Swinglow, have a read about it and the studies, it may open your eyes adn you will notice things about yourself).

Its a really interesting subject.
		
Click to expand...

But your behaviour is what you do - which is, you decide not to go on a cruise😀    ( quite rightly ,too😉)
The powerful thing you refer too is what is called in old English - temptation😀
It is up to you to succumb or not. Willpower.You don't succumb because something has been transmitted to you.

E.g. I have never believed all the nonsense about adverts. The only way they affect me is making me aware of the existence of a product.
I do not buy it because personality A is the voiceover for it at God knows what fee.
Nor how clever or frequent the advert , or how funny. ( appreciate the funnies, or the witty, but as for influencing me buying the product........)
A lot of them actually annoy me to the point of ensuring I do not buy the product😀

It is said that people do buy for those reasons. Well,Maybe then ,proving that Einstein was right, but I suspect that you would see just how much advertising would be used if it didn't give companies tax breaks!


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Behaviours can be conditioned, either by pharmacological or psycho-social mechanisms, and are not entirely, or even sometimes at all, volitional. I guarantee you have some such behaviours. We all do.
		
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Appreciate that, E.  Stick certain drugs in me and Lord know what I would do.
Or point a gun at me etc😀 Or ,maybe, blackmail etc.
But if I have obese friends , or smoking friends, I can decide for myself whether to do likewise. 
Mind you, they do say Im an awkward cus 😀
But what exactly do you mean by psycho-social etc. that inevitably decide my behaviour?


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## BiMGuy (Nov 12, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			But your behaviour is what you do - which is, you decide not to go on a cruise😀    ( quite rightly ,too😉)
The powerful thing you refer too is what is called in old English - temptation😀
It is up to you to succumb or not. Willpower.You don't succumb because something has been transmitted to you.

E.g. I have never believed all the nonsense about adverts. The only way they affect me is making me aware of the existence of a product.
I do not buy it because personality A is the voiceover for it at God knows what fee.
Nor how clever or frequent the advert , or how funny. ( appreciate the funnies, or the witty, but as for influencing me buying the product........)
A lot of them actually annoy me to the point of ensuring I do not buy the product😀

It is said that people do buy for those reasons. Well,Maybe then ,proving that Einstein was right, but I suspect that you would see just how much advertising would be used if it didn't give companies tax breaks!
		
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A very good friend of mine is very successful in the marketing world. He claims that more often than not, those that claim advertising has no influence on them are the most easily influenced by advertising.


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## Beezerk (Nov 12, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not good but there is a joke in there. Sorry!
		
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Sadly there isn’t.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 12, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			So I had my 2nd jab 6 months ago next week, I’m not 50, but I was originally fast tracked as my child is classed as vulnerable, and I am a care giver.

Should I be able to book a booster?
119 advice says yes
119 booking says no
Website booking says no

Seems that age overrides any other reason why should be able to book your booster.
		
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Apart from a few years older I’m in the exact same position as you, I had my booster last wednesday which was 1 day + the 6 months since 2nd jab.

I was contacted by my GP and given a date.

Today I received a text from the NHS saying I could book my booster.🤷‍♂️

So not sure it’s your age causing the issue, but maybe worth ringing your GP.

Good luck👍🏻


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## williamalex1 (Nov 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Green phlegm/ sputum, sounds bacterial to me, but doctors are now reluctant to prescribe antibiotics.
And trying to get a face to face appointment , .
Update-I've just booked a drive through PCR test for 3 pm Thursday, fingers crossed
		
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My PCR test was negative


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## Pants (Nov 12, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			A very good friend of mine is very successful in the marketing world. He claims that more often than not, those that claim advertising has no influence on them are the most easily influenced by advertising.
		
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Well.  As a "very successful" marketing man. he would say that, wouldn't he.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 12, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Sadly there isn’t.
		
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I know


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 12, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Is your friend at home? If so, they are a long way short of grim. Grim is when the ICU doctor is measuring you up for a endo-tracheal (breathing) tube for the ventilator.

It would be interesting to know (maintaining their anonymity) when your friend had the vaccines, which brand and whether they have any additional risk factors (age, other conditions). It could be that they have dodged a bullet and got a nasty hangover instead of a spell in ICU, or were just unlucky and the vax didn't stimulate a decent immune response.
		
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Indeed, but you can still feel grim even I’d your condition isn’t actually all that grim…if the opportunity arises I’ll ask if she has had same vaccine as myself…


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			My PCR test was negative 

Click to expand...

Are you positive?


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## BiMGuy (Nov 12, 2021)

Pants said:



			Well.  As a "very successful" marketing man. he would say that, wouldn't he. 

Click to expand...

Of course he would.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 12, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Are you positive?
		
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He's normally fairly cheery...


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## williamalex1 (Nov 12, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Are you positive?
		
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I use to be arrogant but I'm perfect now


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## Hobbit (Nov 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I use to be arrogant but I'm perfect now 

Click to expand...

And often get mistaken for Daniel Craig, 007?


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## williamalex1 (Nov 12, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			And often get mistaken for Daniel Craig, 007?
		
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That's elementary my dear Brian


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## Slime (Nov 12, 2021)

Phoned up @ 4.50pm Wednesday to book my booster jab.
10.00am Friday morning and I'm all jabbed up. 
Not even a hint of a side-effect.


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## Wabinez (Nov 13, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			So I had my 2nd jab 6 months ago next week, I’m not 50, but I was originally fast tracked as my child is classed as vulnerable, and I am a care giver.

Should I be able to book a booster?
119 advice says yes
119 booking says no
Website booking says no

Seems that age overrides any other reason why should be able to book your booster.
		
Click to expand...

Had my second jab in May, went online last week, and could book a booster - so did, and had it on Wednesday just gone.

I’m 34, and don’t meet any (that I am aware of) vulnerable categories…and no-one I have asked seems to be able to answer why I keep qualifying. I’ll keep taking the jabs though!


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## drdel (Nov 13, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Had my second jab in May, went online last week, and could book a booster - so did, and had it on Wednesday just gone.

I’m 34, and don’t meet any (that I am aware of) vulnerable categories…and no-one I have asked seems to be able to answer why I keep qualifying. I’ll keep taking the jabs though!
		
Click to expand...

You've obviously been lying about your age for 30 years


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## AmandaJR (Nov 13, 2021)

Does anyone know what the transmission in secondary schools is right now? I'm due to carry out some exam work in the next few weeks and my gut instinct is not to take the risk. Certainly one exam is in the Sports Hall with 150+ year 11's.


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## Ethan (Nov 13, 2021)

Just had my booster, Moderna, my preference after 2 x Pfizer. Got that one purely by chance, no preference asked nor offered.

A busy Sat afternoon mass vax clinic in a shopping centre in Reading, very efficient and smooth, 5-10 mins processing, 15 min wait for allergic reactions after.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Does anyone know what the transmission in secondary schools is right now? I'm due to carry out some exam work in the next few weeks and my gut instinct is not to take the risk. Certainly one exam is in the Sports Hall with 150+ year 11's.
		
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My carer works in a school which has a very low rate, but it varies from school to school, so ask your school how many cases it has in the year group you are with.

You will be distanced from them, anyone testing positive won’t be there, those that are should have tested negative within a day or 2 previously. they won’t be talking or messing about, wear a mask and as long as you are double vaxxed you should be good 👍


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Does anyone know what the transmission in secondary schools is right now? I'm due to carry out some exam work in the next few weeks and my gut instinct is not to take the risk. Certainly one exam is in the Sports Hall with 150+ year 11's.
		
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I can’t say definitively, only anecdotally. My middle daughter has Covid coordinator as one of her hats for school admin at a secondary school - 1,200 pupils. The Kent variant might have seen 5 children a week with it. Transmission was negligible. The Indian variant sees up to 200 a week. More transmissible but not so debilitating amongst the children. What it does in terms of number of staff off or when the kids take it back home…???


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## harpo_72 (Nov 13, 2021)

My son was pinged today, 2 pupils in his class have it. Went for a pcr with him today. None of us knowingly have symptoms and the results won’t be until tomorrow afternoon. 
I am booked into a competition and I have let my playing partners know the situation. I can keep my distance but I would prefer if they say if they are in a high risk group then I will pull out.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 13, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I can’t say definitively, only anecdotally. My middle daughter has Covid coordinator as one of her hats for school admin at a secondary school - 1,200 pupils. The Kent variant might have seen 5 children a week with it. Transmission was negligible. The Indian variant sees up to 200 a week. More transmissible but not so debilitating amongst the children. What it does in terms of number of staff off or when the kids take it back home…???
		
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That's my concern. In a hall of 150 kids how many might have slipped through testing...when I had it last November I was fine but David was quite poorly for a couple of weeks so would hate to bring it home. Not sure what to do really as my other job is cycling instructor in primary schools so much smaller groups and 95% of it outside. Plus I don't think that age group is as much of an issue. I'm pretty much talking myself into withdrawing until Covid is more under control in secondary schools - risk far outweighing the benefit I think.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 13, 2021)

I pulled out of the competition, I figured it’s best it stops here.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 14, 2021)

Anyone watch Dr John Campbell on youtube? I saw some of his stuff a while back and it was informative enough, altough he's pretty dull so didnt watch that many. Went back recently and he appears to have turned into some kind of Ivermectin zealot! I dont know a massive amount about it, beyond the odd person telling me its wonder drug that's being kept from us as there is no money to be made, but what stuff I have read seems to point to it being of no proven use for fighting Covid anyway.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I pulled out of the competition, I figured it’s best it stops here.
		
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Boys results were negative, but we will keep a regular lateral flow test going.
I need to keep a eye on it all as I will be travelling in 15days .. better to be ready to cancel everything.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 14, 2021)

Not exactlt affecting me but sky reporting that Austria are putting all unvaccinated people into lockdown. That'll go down well!😳


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## pauljames87 (Nov 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not exactlt affecting me but sky reporting that Austria are putting all unvaccinated people into lockdown. That'll go down well!😳
		
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Would love to see it brought in here.. see how many the anti vax suddenly change their tune..


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not exactlt affecting me but sky reporting that Austria are putting all unvaccinated people into lockdown. That'll go down well!😳
		
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Cough, post #21,986, cough 😉😁.

It is an interesting one though isn't it? Fascinating to see how it plays out and if the idea is taken up in other countries.


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Not exactlt affecting me but sky reporting that Austria are putting all unvaccinated people into lockdown. That'll go down well!😳
		
Click to expand...

More room on the slopes. Bet they are all let out by end of December


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



*Cough, post #21,986, cough* 😉😁.

It is an interesting one though isn't it? Fascinating to see how it plays out and if the idea is taken up in other countries.
		
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That's a nasty persistent cough you've got there. Should probably get yourself booked in for a PCR test.


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## rudebhoy (Nov 15, 2021)

had my booster first thing this morning, and don't feel great, quite woozy and light headed. Got Pfizer after having AZ for the first two. Had my flu jab last week, don't know if that's a factor.

Was supposed to be playing at lunchtime, but thought it best to give it a miss. Hopefully will be ok for tomorrow.


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## Beezerk (Nov 15, 2021)

Just booked my booster jab for middle of December 👍


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 15, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			had my booster first thing this morning, and don't feel great, quite woozy and light headed. Got Pfizer after having AZ for the first two. Had my flu jab last week, don't know if that's a factor.

Was supposed to be playing at lunchtime, but thought it best to give it a miss. Hopefully will be ok for tomorrow.
		
Click to expand...

I'd thought you  would plan better than that. I've booked mine for 2 weeks time, 2pm on a Saturday after I have played that morning. Sunday might be on the settee watching football feeling as you are now. Planning


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## Ethan (Nov 15, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			had my booster first thing this morning, and don't feel great, quite woozy and light headed. Got Pfizer after having AZ for the first two. Had my flu jab last week, don't know if that's a factor.

Was supposed to be playing at lunchtime, but thought it best to give it a miss. Hopefully will be ok for tomorrow.
		
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You'll be fine in time for Christmas. Hopefully this one.


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## GB72 (Nov 15, 2021)

OK, just looking for a bit of clarification from those more understanding of these things than me. 

From a week today, people under the age of 50 can have their booster jab but I understand that it has to be 6 months after your second jab. Is that set in stone and for a solid medical reason. 

I only ask because I had plucked up the courage to finally go to a gig at an indoor venue for my birthday on December 11th. Trouble is, that is 6 months to the day from my second jab. Mentally I would feel so much better if I could have that booster jab just a couple of weeks earlier and go out knowing I had all of the protection in me that I can have but suspect that I will have to have it when I get back (but at least will be triple jabbed for Xmas)


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## Ethan (Nov 15, 2021)

GB72 said:



			OK, just looking for a bit of clarification from those more understanding of these things than me.

From a week today, people under the age of 50 can have their booster jab but I understand that it has to be 6 months after your second jab. Is that set in stone and for a solid medical reason.

I only ask because I had plucked up the courage to finally go to a gig at an indoor venue for my birthday on December 11th. Trouble is, that is 6 months to the day from my second jab. Mentally I would feel so much better if I could have that booster jab just a couple of weeks earlier and go out knowing I had all of the protection in me that I can have but suspect that I will have to have it when I get back (but at least will be triple jabbed for Xmas)
		
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It is set in stone for administrative reasons. The difference between getting the booster 6 months minus a day versus 6 months plus a day is, of course, precisely zero. You could try your luck a few days earlier at a walk in centre, but I wouldn't like to bet on a successful outcome. 

I wouldn't worry too much, though. If you are under 50 and don't have some impairment affecting immune response, your immunity from 2 vax should still be pretty robust at 6 months. I won't comment on whether you should or should not go to the event except to say that I don't think the level of protection would be very different if you had the booster a week or so before. 3 or 4 months further down the line, maybe.


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## Old Skier (Nov 15, 2021)

GB72 said:



			OK, just looking for a bit of clarification from those more understanding of these things than me.

From a week today, people under the age of 50 can have their booster jab but I understand that it has to be 6 months after your second jab. Is that set in stone and for a solid medical reason.

I only ask because I had plucked up the courage to finally go to a gig at an indoor venue for my birthday on December 11th. Trouble is, that is 6 months to the day from my second jab. Mentally I would feel so much better if I could have that booster jab just a couple of weeks earlier and go out knowing I had all of the protection in me that I can have but suspect that I will have to have it when I get back (but at least will be triple jabbed for Xmas)
		
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Doubt if the system will allow you to book early.


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## GB72 (Nov 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is set in stone for administrative reasons. The difference between getting the booster 6 months minus a day versus 6 months plus a day is, of course, precisely zero. You could try your luck a few days earlier at a walk in centre, but I wouldn't like to bet on a successful outcome.

I wouldn't worry too much, though. If you are under 50 and don't have some impairment affecting immune response, your immunity from 2 vax should still be pretty robust at 6 months. I won't comment on whether you should or should not go to the event except to say that I don't think the level of protection would be very different if you had the booster a week or so before. 3 or 4 months further down the line, maybe.
		
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Thanks for the info and thanks for staying away from should I go or not (even my opinion on that changes pretty regularly). I was working from Jab one etc where there was a difference after a few weeks rather than it being a longer term thing. I will head down to Brighton for a nice meal on the Friday and make my decision on the Saturday whether I go to the gig or find anther nice restaurant for my birthday.


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## ExRabbit (Nov 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Doubt if the system will allow you to book early.
		
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The system opened up for me a week last Friday and I was able to book my booster for Wednesday this week, which is about 11 days sooner than expected. I had been trying most days to book online, and was refused because it wasn't long enough, and then suddenly on Monday the gates were opened early. I'd just try booking and see what happens.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 16, 2021)

I hadn't realised the absolute chaos and chain of events that happens after a positive Covid test. Younger son returned a positive LFT this morning. Mrs Colch phoned his primary school to inform them and because it is the 3rd positive test in his class the local authorities and PHE got involved and declared an outbreak leading to restrictions and testing for his whole class. Older son had already left to cycle to school so I tried phoning him but got no answer. I then phoned my dad and step mum to tell them to stay away as they've moved to a new house about 5 minutes from us and often drop in for a coffee unannounced. While I was on the phone to them older son tried to call me back but obviously was engaged. I phoned the high school to check on their policy and got told that he has to stay home for 3 days and then take a PCR test, which if negative means he can return to school. We then got a phone call from older son who was with one of his teacher's and had to explain the situation and agree that he could cycle back home. Myself, Mrs Colch and older son have all returned negative LFTs and I have had to take younger son for a PCR test this afternoon and should get the results tomorrow. Mrs Colch was due to go away on Thursday morning for a 3 day craft fair but was due to be staying at my brother's house as it's a 2 hour drive each way to get there and he lives closer. Unfortunately as he has previously had leukaemia he's classed as vulnerable and now can't risk her not showing symptoms and carrying it over there so she's had to cancel. Mrs Colch is also classed as vulnerable due to her asthma so we've been freezing our tits off with doors and windows open trying to get fresh air in the house while she hides away in her work room. I'll be glad when this is all over.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 18, 2021)

Flu jag done today; covid booster in 3 weeks time.


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## SaintHacker (Nov 18, 2021)

Just found out a good friend of mine is in hospital on a ventilator. Tested positive sunday, taken in monday and ventilated that evening. Went downhill unbelievably quickly according to his daughter. Very very worried for him at the moment


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 18, 2021)

This could equally have gone in the random irritations thread, but, in a completely non-political way, Test and Trace is an absolute shambles. Younger son tested positive with a LFT on Tuesday morning. Took him for a PCR test that afternoon and got the positive result through this morning. Had to go to the pharmacy to get him some paracetamol and while there got a call from Test and Trace. I explained where I was, at which point the woman got quite shirty and told me that a close contact I should be isolating. I pointed out to her that as I am double jabbed I don't have to isolate as I don't have any symptoms and had tested negative on a LFT. I asked them to call me back once I got home. Got home and received the call back and started going through the questions. The phone line was terrible and the guy I was speaking to explained they were on an internet phone line and it often dropped out. Half way through the call it dropped out completely. A different person then called me back twice but both times I couldn't hear them. Someone else then called me back and tried to start the questions again from the beginning. I told them that I'd already answered most of the questions so they managed to find where it had been left before and started from there. At the end of the call he asked if I had any questions and I said "Yes, don't you want the contact details for Mrs Colch as you haven't taken them". Cue back peddling as he desperately tried to find the right part of the form to complete that bit. Plus the fact that I was asked three times if my son travelled to a place of work. He's 10 years old, I've already given you his date of birth, and as we don't live in Victorian times I'm not sending him up chimneys, so no, you moron, he's not travelling to a place of work.

You would've thought that some of the £36 billion could have been spent on decent phone lines and also staff that know what they are doing. Rant over.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Just found out a good friend of mine is in hospital on a ventilator. Tested positive sunday, taken in monday and ventilated that evening. Went downhill unbelievably quickly according to his daughter. Very very worried for him at the moment
		
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Very sad news. There was a double jabbed middle aged guy in my place (no other co-morbidities) who went downhill very quickly and died and it affected a lot of the nursing staff deeply. I hope your mate can pull through but from my experiences it'll be a long and difficult journey but best wishes to him


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## Ethan (Nov 18, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			This could equally have gone in the random irritations thread, but, in a completely non-political way, Test and Trace is an absolute shambles. Younger son tested positive with a LFT on Tuesday morning. Took him for a PCR test that afternoon and got the positive result through this morning. Had to go to the pharmacy to get him some paracetamol and while there got a call from Test and Trace. I explained where I was, at which point the woman got quite shirty and told me that a close contact I should be isolating. I pointed out to her that as I am double jabbed I don't have to isolate as I don't have any symptoms and had tested negative on a LFT. I asked them to call me back once I got home. Got home and received the call back and started going through the questions. The phone line was terrible and the guy I was speaking to explained they were on an internet phone line and it often dropped out. Half way through the call it dropped out completely. A different person then called me back twice but both times I couldn't hear them. Someone else then called me back and tried to start the questions again from the beginning. I told them that I'd already answered most of the questions so they managed to find where it had been left before and started from there. At the end of the call he asked if I had any questions and I said "Yes, don't you want the contact details for Mrs Colch as you haven't taken them". Cue back peddling as he desperately tried to find the right part of the form to complete that bit. Plus the fact that I was asked three times if my son travelled to a place of work. He's 10 years old, I've already given you his date of birth, and as we don't live in Victorian times I'm not sending him up chimneys, so no, you moron, he's not travelling to a place of work.

You would've thought that some of the £36 billion could have been spent on decent phone lines and also staff that know what they are doing. Rant over.
		
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Test and Trace has been a disgrace. I don't blame individual badly paid employees, but the process. To start with, tracing is not a call centre activity, but a ground level activity. T&T used some very generous interpretations of performance metrics to inflate their apparent performance, for example if you identified X names and agreed to contact them all, then X people were recorded as having complied with instructions.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Test and Trace has been a disgrace. I don't blame individual badly paid employees, but the process. To start with, tracing is not a cell centre activity, but a ground level activity. T&T used some very generous interpretations of performance metrics to inflate their apparent performance, for example if you identified X names and agreed to contact them all, then X people were recorded as having complied with instructions.
		
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We'd already done the job of test and trace as soon as he tested positive on the LFT. We called his school to let them know and also our older son's school. We informed all of the parents from his football team and the manager let the team he'd played against at the weekend know. Once the positive PCR result came back we phoned all of the same people to let them know that it had been confirmed with a PCR test. Everyone that needed to be informed had already been informed before test and trace even got involved.

EDIT - I know a lot of the £36 billion has been spent on the testing side of things (approx 90% from some reports I've read) but that still leaves over £3.5 billion that has been spent on the tracing side of things which is a ridiculous amount.


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## Ethan (Nov 18, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			We'd already done the job of test and trace as soon as he tested positive on the LFT. We called his school to let them know and also our older son's school. We informed all of the parents from his football team and the manager let the team he'd played against at the weekend know. Once the positive PCR result came back we phoned all of the same people to let them know that it had been confirmed with a PCR test. Everyone that needed to be informed had already been informed before test and trace even got involved.

EDIT - I know a lot of the £36 billion has been spent on the testing side of things (approx 90% from some reports I've read) but that still leaves over £3.5 billion that has been spent on the tracing side of things which is a ridiculous amount.
		
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You did well, but as you say, you did the work. Traditional contact tracing involves IDing a case, then identifying contacts, taking action to limit spread (different for TB compared to gonorrhoea, for example) and testing exposed people. If done properly, it breaks the chain of spread, but needs some direct, or at least personal, contact from someone who can use their common sense and training to tease out information.

The budget for Serco T&T was a number of years of the entire Public Health England budget. It could have been much much better spent and created a brilliant contact tracing system.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I was just looking at the English data and the daily cases have been dropping since the 18th October which is before most schools broke up for half term so whilst half term may well have sped up the reduction in infections the direction of travel was downwards before that happened. Hopefully that's a good thing as if it were solely based on half term then infections should dip and then start to rise again.
		
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I notice the infections are starting to rise again.  I have no empirical data but it certainly looks as if they are related to school activity.


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## ExRabbit (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice the infections are starting to rise again.  I have no empirical data but it certainly looks as if they are related to school activity.
		
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My wife is a teacher, and I would agree with this judging by the numbers at her school.

Pretty glad we both got our booster yesterday. Ironically perhaps the least painful jabs, but the sorest arms today!


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice the infections are starting to rise again.  I have no empirical data but it certainly looks as if they are related to school activity.
		
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Have you noticed that the days are also getting shorter? That means Winter is on its way/here. And infections have risen every Autumn/Winter. The observation of rise of infections at schools is, to me, merely a reflection of the above. Though that's certainly no reason for schools to be complacent - quite the opposite in fact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2021)

And so a work colleague you work closely with tests positive and consequently your work asks you to go home as you present a risk to other colleagues.  But you are on what is in effect a zero hours contract and only get paid for the hours you work, and so for as long as your employer will not have you back at work your earnings are zilch.  Just checking if this is all legit or if your employer has any obligations to you - or indeed if you qualify for statutory sick pay even given that you yourself do not exhibit any symptoms.  Would it make any difference to your situation were you double-vaxxed.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so a work colleague you work closely with tests positive and consequently your work asks you to go home as you present a risk to other colleagues.  But you are on zero hours contract and only get paid for the hours you work, and so for as long as your employer will not have you back at work your earnings are zilch.  Just checking if this is all legit or if your employer has any obligations to you - or indeed if you qualify for statutory sick pay.
		
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It depends on the employment contract signed, that needs to be carefully read. I suspect the clue is in the phrase, zero hours, though. The nature of those contracts is that costs for the employer are kept to a minimum and this is likely to be part of that.

I've checked citizens advice and the person should be entitled to ssp, unless they are classed as self employed. That might be the case in this situation. 

I can't help further I'm afraid, we employ people with proper contracts, that give protection etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It depends on the employment contract signed, that needs to be carefully read. I suspect the clue is in the phrase, zero hours, though. The nature of those contracts is that costs for the employer are kept to a minimum and this is likely to be part of that.

I've checked citizens advice and the person should be entitled to ssp, unless they are classed as self employed. That might be the case in this situation.

I can't help further I'm afraid, we employ people with proper contracts, that give protection etc.
		
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Interesting…but since your response suggests that the detail matters.

If I provide what is in practice a self-employed ad-hoc service to the customers of the business, that being 90% of my income (though at any point if no customers want my services provided then my income from that is zero), and at the same time get paid a small amount by the business on a contracted basis to provide them with some basic services?  They send me home and I immediately lose 90% of my income - because one of their customers I worked with tested positive…


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## road2ruin (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I notice the infections are starting to rise again.  I have no empirical data but it certainly looks as if they are related to school activity.
		
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Agree, the schools probably are helping with the numbers but as already mentioned time of year is also going to be contributing to the numbers. I was in a pub at the weekend that doesn't usually feel that busy inside however that's because they have a large beer garden, now the majority are inside and it was rammed. Summer and mild autumn have kept keep the numbers down but as we're forecast much colder weather it's inevitable that the numbers will increase. The positive news is that largely speaking hospital admissions are still not following the upward curve of the cases.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting…but since your response suggests that the detail matters.

If I provide what is in practice a self-employed ad-hoc service to the customers of the business, that being 90% of my income (though at any point if no customers want my services provided then my income from that is zero), and at the same time get paid a small amount by the business on a contracted basis to provide them with some basic services?  They send me home and I immediately lose 90% of my income - because one of their customers I worked with tested positive…
		
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The key is usually what is in the contract, assuming it is legally correct which we would hope it is. I know that is obvious but actually very few do read their contract and so a number of things become a shock. I remember reading the first contract which stipulated which deaths I could have time off for, how close a family member etc. It identified them and how many days I was entitled to. I'd never seen that before but later discovered it was pretty common.

Sadly, these types of contracts are loaded very heavily in one direction and it is not towards the employee. Nature of the beast unfortunately.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting…but since your response suggests that the detail matters.

If I provide what is in practice a self-employed ad-hoc service to the customers of the business, that being 90% of my income (though at any point if no customers want my services provided then my income from that is zero), and at the same time get paid a small amount by the business on a contracted basis to provide them with some basic services?  They send me home and I immediately lose 90% of my income - because one of their customers I worked with tested positive…
		
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Why can't you provide that (90% of your income) service from home - or an alternative office (if security is a major concern)? Surely telephone and comms are sufficient these days. They were 'tolerable' for me and the company I was contracting for when inclement weather caused this to happen once in the early '90s.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Have you noticed that the days are also getting shorter? That means Winter is on its way/here. And infections have risen every Autumn/Winter. The observation of rise of infections at schools is, to me, merely a reflection of the above. Though that's certainly no reason for schools to be complacent - quite the opposite in fact.
		
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Please don't be so patronising, its completely unnecessary.

Are you suggesting the recent short drop then increase in infection rates are not connected to school holidays, I think there is a connection but agree it's not the sole reason.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Why can't you provide that (90% of your income) service from home - or an alternative office (if security is a major concern)? Surely telephone and comms are sufficient these days. They were 'tolerable' for me and the company I was contracting for when inclement weather caused this to happen once in the early '90s.
		
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Surely that depends on the type of work and is not applicable across the board. If, say, it was doing sound performance work in a nightclub (just for example) I'm not sure you could do that either from another nightclub or from home regardless how good communications tools are.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Why can't you provide that (90% of your income) service from home - or an alternative office (if security is a major concern)? Surely telephone and comms are sufficient these days. They were 'tolerable' for me and the company I was contracting for when inclement weather caused this to happen once in the early '90s.
		
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Can’t be done, the 90% can only be delivered in the workplace.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Surely that depends on the type of work and is not applicable across the board. If, say, it was doing sound performance work in a nightclub (just for example) I'm not sure you could do that either from another nightclub or from home regardless how good communications tools are.
		
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Or if, for example, you were the promotion company rep at venues and had to be at the venues to do all the venue checks and arrangements with venue management and artists.  But this is not the actual context I was thinking of, though the issue applies.


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## Foxholer (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			Surely that depends on the type of work and is not applicable across the board. If, say, it was doing sound performance work in a nightclub (just for example) I'm not sure you could do that either from another nightclub or from home regardless how good communications tools are.
		
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I know the sort of work SILH does - having been in that business myself, though not for the same sort of clients. As I stated, in the early '90s weather precluded my actual attendance at my designated place of work, but I was able to continue for the week or so necessary to clear the way to return - and that was using fairly rudimentary (if effective) document/text delivery method (Philips Maestro).
But, as I thought/believe, the security issues of SILH's role prevents 'home' working.


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I know the sort of work SILH does - having been in that business myself, though not for the same sort of clients. As I stated, in the early '90s weather precluded my actual attendance at my designated place of work, but I was able to continue for the week or so necessary to clear the way to return - and that was using fairly rudimentary (if effective) document/text delivery method (Philips Maestro).
But, as I thought/believe, the security issues of SILH's role prevents 'home' working.
		
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I think you may find SILH retired recently and it’s actually his son that is being referenced.

Of course, I could be wrong but fairly sure he retired earlier this year


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## GreiginFife (Nov 19, 2021)

I somehow also can’t imagine SILH being in a ZHC…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 19, 2021)

GreiginFife said:



			I somehow also can’t imagine SILH being in a ZHC…
		
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I’m definitely retired but might be a ZHC as I haven’t a scoobie what one is.  He’s also a nightclub DJ - which maybe what you mean.

As it happens my question was not actually about my lad‘s work - though he does face the same issue.  His (and our) biggest worry for him is not that, but more that infections and hospital inpatients regularly hit numbers that result in venues being closed down.

But put that aside - the ‘being sent home and losing 90% of income due to a customer testing positive‘ is the question I’m seeking guidance on.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Please don't be so patronising, its completely unnecessary.

Are you suggesting the recent short drop then increase in infection rates are not connected to school holidays, I think there is a connection but agree it's not the sole reason.
		
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This whole demonising of kids is getting really boring. Rates are up….kids are to blame


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			This whole demonising of kids is getting really boring. Rates are up….kids are to blame
		
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Demonising!  What on earth are you talking about !   It's a known fact that a large amount of the virus has been circulating in young people and especially school children.  No one has 'blamed them' but burying our heads in the sand to the reality is more than boring, it's unbelievable.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			This whole demonising of kids is getting really boring. Rates are up….kids are to blame
		
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I don't see it as demonising kids. Schools go back and 30 kids are put in a classroom together for several hours each day. If one of them has it then the chances are that it will be passed on to some of those around them. It's not the fault of the kids but the fact that they are put in close contact situations whereby virus spread is almost guaranteed. The only alternative is closing the schools and going back to home schooling which isn't a reasonable solution. Fortunately it seems that 99.9% of kids only have a very mild illness and once they have completed their isolation can return to school.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Demonising!  What on earth are you talking about !   It's a known fact that a large amount of the virus has been circulating in young people and especially school children.  No one has 'blamed them' but burying our heads in the sand to the reality is more than boring, it's unbelievable.
		
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The reality of what? All I know is that kids have been blamed for killing grandma for 2 years now. It’s awful.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 19, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I don't see it as demonising kids. Schools go back and 30 kids are put in a classroom together for several hours each day. If one of them has it then the chances are that it will be passed on to some of those around them. It's not the fault of the kids but the fact that they are put in close contact situations whereby virus spread is almost guaranteed. The only alternative is closing the schools and going back to home schooling which isn't a reasonable solution. Fortunately it seems that 99.9% of kids only have a very mild illness and once they have completed their isolation can return to school.
		
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Thanks for your rational response. Think of what school age kids have gone through in the last 2 years. Education ruined, blamed for the 3/4/5 wave *delete as appropriate. pressured into getting a vaccination which, statistically could jeopardise their health. How long does this go on for?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			The reality of what? All I know is that kids have been blamed for killing grandma for 2 years now. It’s awful.
		
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Where did I say that!  The reality is that schools are the perfect environment to spread Covid and the sheer close contact of numbers that has to take place there makes it so.  Please try reading and digesting what people post before going off on a rant.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Where did I say that!  The reality is that schools are the perfect environment to spread Covid and the sheer close contact of numbers that has to take place there makes it so.  Please try reading and digesting what people post before going off on a rant.
		
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Not a rant. Just the vocalising the current narrative. Read this thread. I will paraphrase. Young people = bad, don’t care, irresponsible. Rates increase because of school age children…..going to school. 
How do you think it plays out with school ages kids?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Thanks for your rational response. Think of what school age kids have gone through in the last 2 years. Education ruined, blamed for the 3/4/5 wave *delete as appropriate. pressured into getting a vaccination which, statistically could jeopardise their health. How long does this go on for?
		
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I've got two kids, aged 10 and 12, so I know what they've been through. Home schooling was a complete bitch and I wouldn't want them put through that again. My younger boy tested positive on Tuesday this week so I've had both of them at home with me as the older boy's school wouldn't let him attend as a close contact until he'd had a negative PCR test. Thankfully the rest of the household have all tested negative so far. It's entirely possible that the kids were "responsible" for whatever wave number you wish to choose but that doesn't mean that they are "to blame" for it. There's a big difference between being responsible for and being to blame for. When you have that many kids in close contact every day then it's inevitable that the virus will spread between them. But that is equally true if you did the same with people in their 40's, 50's or 60's. If you put a group of 30 pensioners together every day for 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, then it's almost certain that they would be responsible for an increase in numbers.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Not a rant. Just the vocalising the current narrative. Read this thread. I will paraphrase. Young people = bad, don’t care, irresponsible. Rates increase because of school age children…..going to school.
How do you think it plays out with school ages kids?
		
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There is no doubt that the majority of infections recently have been in young people and schools are the ideal environment for this to propagate.  Are you disagreeing with this?

You seem unable to accept this as a fact without appending various accusations relating to young people that I'm not making.  I suggest that if you want to make these accusations you use them in the correct context where someone is actually stating them.  I'm certainly not laying blame but stating facts.   Please get it right!


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## Leftitshort (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no doubt that the majority of infections recently have been in young people and schools are the ideal environment for this to propagate.  Are you disagreeing with this?

You seem unable to accept this as a fact without appending various accusations relating to young people that I'm not making.  I suggest that if you want to make these accusations you use them in the correct context where someone is actually stating them.  I'm certainly not laying blame but stating facts.   Please get it right!
		
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Read the thread. Have a look at what has been written. This is clearly a view shared by some out there, most in here. If you don’t see it then I’d have to question your objectivity. 

No one is disputing close contact leads to infections but the whole narrative of irresponsible kids is really tedious. It may not have been your intention but the inference in yours & others posts is clear. If you don’t see that, change your prescription


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Read the thread. Have a look at what has been written. This is clearly a view shared by some out there, most in here. If you don’t see it then I’d have to question your objectivity.

No one is disputing close contact leads to infections but the whole narrative of irresponsible kids is really tedious. It may not have been your intention but the inference in yours & others posts is clear. If you don’t see that, change your prescription
		
Click to expand...

No, you change yours, you are putting words in my mouth.  By your posts have shown you are not prepared to listen and only want to promote your biased agenda.  I'm not buying it, if you can point out where you think I'm  'Blaming kids' in this conversation then please show it or drop the false accusations.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No, you change yours, you are putting words in my mouth.  By your posts have shown you are not prepared to listen and only want to promote your biased agenda.  I'm not buying it, if you can point out where you think I'm  'Blaming kids' in this conversation then please show it or drop the false accusations.
		
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You have put the words in there yourself my friend!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 19, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			You have put the words in there yourself my friend!
		
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I give up, you are unreasonable and I'm certainly not your friend.

Before I ignore your further rants here's a quote from the ONS site.

"The positivity rate decreased in most age groups in the latest week (ending 13 November 2021). *Positivity rates remained highest in secondary school children (school Years 7 to 11)* and lowest in adults aged 70 years and over."


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## DanFST (Nov 19, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I give up, you are unreasonable and I'm certainly not your friend.

Before I ignore your further rants here's a quote from the ONS site.

"The positivity rate decreased in most age groups in the latest week (ending 13 November 2021). *Positivity rates remained highest in secondary school children (school Years 7 to 11)* and lowest in adults aged 70 years and over."
		
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And what's your point with that data?


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## road2ruin (Nov 20, 2021)

To be fair to SR I didn’t read his posts as blaming kids, it was just that they (along with probably the seasonality side of things) are one of the drivers of cases at the moment. 

In my opinion we’re at that point where I don’t think that lowering the vaccination age is going to have that much affect, I think there will be resistance for going younger due to the health risk/benefit for getting children vaccinated. It is true responsibility for those who are most at risk to come out and get their boosters. That will keep them far safer than getting their grandchild vaccinated.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

DanFST said:



			And what's your point with that data?
		
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Have you not read the discussion?


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			...
"The positivity rate decreased in most age groups in the latest week (ending 13 November 2021). *Positivity rates remained highest in secondary school children (school Years 7 to 11)* and lowest in adults aged 70 years and over."
		
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You seem to be misusing the stats in that report - presumably
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/19november2021
Here's the first part of the previous paragraph.
'*The percentage of people testing positive for coronavirus (COVID-19) decreased for those in school Year 7 to school Year 11*,'...
In fact, the graphs included in that report (immediatly after the sentence you quotd) show they have decreased pretty dramatically from a blip in mid Oct (going from 8 to 9%) decreasing consistently to the 3.6% (still/just the highest %age of the groups) in the 23/11 stats.
So while positivity rates are, understandably imo, highest for that group, the number of actual cases is reducing - which would seem to clash with your assertion that it was rising because of 'return to school' - unless of course there are school hols I'm unaware of around/just before that (early/mid Oct) date. Half Term (25-29 Oct) _might_ have affected infections/data, but the trend is petty consistent through Nov.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			You seem to be misusing the stats in that report - presumably
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...ruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/19november2021
Here's the first part of the previous paragraph.
'*The percentage of people testing positive for coronavirus (COVID-19) decreased for those in school Year 7 to school Year 11*,'...
In fact, the graphs included in that report show they have decreased pretty dramatically from a blip in mid Oct (going from 8 to 9%) decreasing consistently to the 3.6% (still/just the highest %age of the groups) in the 23/11 stats.
So while positivity rates are, understandably imo, highest for that group, the number of actual cases is reducing - which would seem to clash with your assertion that it was rising because of 'return to school' - unless of course there are school hols I'm unaware of around/just before that (early/mid Oct) date.
		
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I'm refering to the period around the last half term.  The rates dipped then rose again and I had a discussion with a member regarding this and questioned whether the holiday was a contributing factor.  The posts in the last few days are from someone raising it again and suggesting it was a witch hunt against kids, which is ridiculous.

Your comment also misses the point, it wasn't about any longer term trends.

The discussion has now become completely out of context so I'm out of it.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2021)

I spoke to my mum on the phone yesterday and said I felt like I was getting a cold. I've been testing myself daily since my younger son tested positive on Tuesday. This morning I had a positive LFT so have been for a PCR test. At the minute it just feels like a mild cold so fingers crossed it stays that way.


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2021)

Haven't read all the to and fro above, but it seems to me that there are certain indisputable facts.

One is that children (as the predominant group of unvaccinated) are, and have been for a bit, a major reservoir of infection. That seems simple enough, the virus propagates better in unvaccinated people, and doesn't know or care how young or old the host is. Nobody blames kids for this. 

Second, children have to go to school, and therefore are exposed to a higher potential of transmission. Nobody blames kids for that either. 

Third, children then go home to places with adults and visiting grandparents, so transmission to those people if vaccinated or unable to mount an effective immunity. See above. 

Thus, focusing prevention efforts on children is reasonable and rational, and does not demonise them or consider them culpable. 

FWIW, I have two boys, now aged 14 and (just) 12. Lockdown was a bit of a pain for them, but appears not to have done any lasting harm. The older one is at a school which is quite tech-savvy, so doing a lot of stuff on his iPad was not a major departure for him, and he took up a couple of side interests while WFH. The younger was at primary during the main lockdown, and is now at the same secondary as his big bro. His primary was not as nearly well tuned in as his brothers secondary, so did not provide great lockdown teaching, but we got him reading lots of books and he is doing very well at secondary now. 

Both were eligible for a vax, the younger one only in the last couple of weeks, and we offered them the chance to choose freely for themselves, and they both opted for it. 

In my reading of the benefits and risks of vaccination in children, my view is that the benefit-risk still strongly supports vaccination. The JCVI did the issue a disservice by choosing to take a much narrower view of the question (personal benefit-risk only) than they did for previous strategies (e.g. HPV vax in boys to benefit women in later life). The benefit, is in reducing the risk of getting Covid, and the rare but potentially very damaging effects, versus the risk of vaccination. The initial reports of myocarditis caused by the mRNAs is, to me, a small risk. The prevalence is low and the myocarditis is usually mild. Myocarditis acquired in the community ("wild-type") is usually worse. I have personal experience of this, having had it about 10 years ago and thinking I was going to kick it. I am also concerned about some of the longer term effects of Covid, even in asymptomatic kids, as it is a nasty virus with broad inflammatory effects which can cause subclinical organ damage.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Read the thread. Have a look at what has been written. This is clearly a view shared by some out there, most in here. If you don’t see it then I’d have to question your objectivity.

No one is disputing close contact leads to infections but the whole narrative of *irresponsible kids is really tedious.* It may not have been your intention but the inference in yours & others posts is clear. If you don’t see that, change your prescription
		
Click to expand...

Why is it, some kids are irresponsible as are some adults. Some Kids are responsible as are some adults. we have the grandkids for the next four days, in that time they are going to football, swimming, football. Mixing with kids from other schools. Close contact. That don’t mean they are irresponsible, they are doing it under a  controlled manner. But there is still the chance they could catch and spread the virus.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 20, 2021)

I decided not to invigilate in year 11 mocks next week - 200 in a Sports Hall just felt too risky. Interesting communication though from Exams Officer...the school has around 2000 pupils and I know inviglators are in shorter supply than normal.

_There are very, very few cases of COVID that have been reported in school and obviously these people are away isolating so not here at all.  There have been *no *outbreaks here. _


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm refering to the period around the last half term...
		
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So why use _the latest_ report - significantly after that period - which continues to show a decrease that doesn't look related to half-term! Though, as I alluded to above, later (or even earlier) reports _might_ indicate a (possible) connection.
Picking/choosing incomplete stats/statements or only the stats/statement(s) that support a pre-conceived hypothesis is wrong (tantamount to lying!) imo - though politicians do so frequently!
And FWIW, my comments weren't about longer term trends either!


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no doubt that the *majority of infections* recently have been in young people ... _Are you disagreeing with this?_

Click to expand...

_I am!_
Highest percentage is not the same as 'majority of infections'!


SocketRocket said:



			...Please get it right!
		
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Indeed!


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I decided not to invigilate in year 11 mocks next week - 200 in a Sports Hall just felt too risky. Interesting communication though from Exams Officer...the school has around 2000 pupils and I know inviglators are in shorter supply than normal.

_There are very, very few cases of COVID that have been reported in school and obviously these people are away isolating so not here at all.  There have been *no *outbreaks here. _

Click to expand...

Given (or is it an assumption on my part) that no/very few school age kids have been vaccinated, I'm very surprised at the low rates of infection. It seems that whatever 'precautions' have been taken have been very effective - unlike what I have seen in workplace environments in the past!

I can certainly understand your hesitation though.


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## GB72 (Nov 20, 2021)

Just booked my booster. NHS website now taking under 50 bookings despite what it says on front page


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## Imurg (Nov 20, 2021)

Just been boosted.....very efficient..


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Just booked my booster. NHS website now taking under 50 bookings despite what it says on front page
		
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I hope you don't get the Moderna.
I did and although it wasn't bad, it was definitely worse than the Az


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2021)

I wouldn’t normally take the flu jag but this year I took it.  So two days after being vaccinated on Wednesday I started to suffer heavy cold/flu symptoms.  Last night and this morning - not good.  And guessing that this may be down to being vaccinated when my built up immunity has been compromised by the last 18months.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2021)

A couple of questions for @Ethan. I'm double jabbed and have tested positive this morning. Assuming that the PCR test is also positive will getting the booster increase my protection by much? Or is double jabbed and having protection from being infected a good enough defence? I understand that I can't have the booster for a certain time period after having it. Is that correct?


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## AmandaJR (Nov 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I hope you don't get the Moderna.
I did and although it wasn't bad, it was definitely worse than the Az
		
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I've heard that from a few people I play golf with. I'm being boosted tomorrow so kind of hoping for Pfizer!


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## bobmac (Nov 20, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			I've heard that from a few people I play golf with. I'm being boosted tomorrow so kind of hoping for Pfizer!
		
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I wouldn't worry it was just a bit of an ache the day after, it's fine now.


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## larmen (Nov 20, 2021)

Not having covid in the house, but the little one brought chickenpox home.
Probably from school. Going to be a great week of home schooling next to work. At least I can skip out if helping in the warehouse for Black Friday.

Not sure if I should be worried about shingles. Mummy and myself had chickenpox some 40 year ago, but I got my covid jabs and booster early because I might be in a risk group due to e previous kidney/PE issue.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			So why use _the latest_ report - significantly after that period - which continues to show a decrease that doesn't look related to half-term! Though, as I alluded to above, later (or even earlier) reports _might_ indicate a (possible) connection.
Picking/choosing incomplete stats/statements or only the stats/statement(s) that support a pre-conceived hypothesis is wrong (tantamount to lying!) imo - though politicians do so frequently!
And FWIW, my comments weren't about longer term trends either!
		
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The part I posted explained that most infections were in secondary school children, the member I was debating with suggested it was wrong to suggest that.  I don't understand what you are trying to suggest but I think it's just your normal childish point scoring.


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## chellie (Nov 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I wouldn’t normally take the flu jag but this year I took it.  So two days after being vaccinated on Wednesday I started to suffer heavy cold/flu symptoms.  Last night and this morning - not good.  And guessing that this may be down to being vaccinated when my built up immunity has been compromised by the last 18months.
		
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Will be coincidence as the flu jab isn't live. They tell you that.


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## Leftitshort (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The part I posted explained that most infections were in secondary school children, the member I was debating with suggested it was wrong to suggest that.  I don't understand what you are trying to suggest but I think it's just your normal childish point scoring.
		
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 You completely missed the point, it wasn’t about fact it was about the inference of the  interpretation of that fact. It wasn’t about you but the general tone of this thread and elsewhere, where kids are being blamed for propagating a virus. 
That’s always been true, with flu, colds, any winter bug. What’s different is the ‘kids are irresponsible’ narrative. 
I feel sorry for my kids, they seem to be disproportionately carrying the effects of the last 18 months. Would be even worse if they were older.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 20, 2021)

chellie said:



			Will be coincidence as the flu jab isn't live. They tell you that.
		
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Mrs doesn’t think it’s anything to do with the flu vaccine, just coincidence.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			A couple of questions for @Ethan. I'm double jabbed and have tested positive this morning. Assuming that the PCR test is also positive will getting the booster increase my protection by much? Or is double jabbed and having protection from being infected a good enough defence? I understand that I can't have the booster for a certain time period after having it. Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

Stay safe and hope all works out well in the Colch household 👍


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The part I posted explained *that most infections* were in secondary school children, the member I was debating with suggested it was wrong to suggest that.  I don't understand what you are trying to suggest but I think it's just your normal childish point scoring.
		
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It's not 'most infections' though - which you continue to (incorrcty) assert!
Perhaps/probably 'the sector with the largest percentage infections' would be correct, but that's a quite different stat! If you can't understand the difference, then stop trying to support a pov/argument with stats!
It's NOT 'normal childish point scoring' - never is. But correcting factual errors that appear to (over-)support an argument/opinion!
Basically...make sure you *get your 'facts' right*!


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## Pin-seeker (Nov 20, 2021)

Do you have to have your booster to be able to travel abroad?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:



			Do you have to have your booster to be able to travel abroad?
		
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At the minute I don't think it's a requirement but I assume that at some point being "fully vaccinated" will include having the booster as well. Not sure how it would work at the minute with it only being offered to those over 40. Also, different rules apply to different countries so some might require it and others not.


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## Pin-seeker (Nov 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			At the minute I don't think it's a requirement but I assume that at some point being "fully vaccinated" will include having the booster as well. Not sure how it would work at the minute with it only being offered to those over 40. Also, different rules apply to different countries so some might require it and others not.
		
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Thanks.
If it’s not a requirement I won’t be having it. 
But I do need a holiday.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



*It's not 'most infections' though - which you continue to (incorrcty) assert!*
Perhaps/probably 'the sector with the largest percentage infections' would be correct, but that's a quite different stat! If you can't understand the difference, then stop trying to support a pov/argument with stats!
It's NOT 'normal childish point scoring' - never is. But correcting factual errors that appear to (over-)support an argument/opinion!
Basically...make sure you *get your 'facts' right*!
		
Click to expand...


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			A couple of questions for @Ethan. I'm double jabbed and have tested positive this morning. Assuming that the PCR test is also positive will getting the booster increase my protection by much? Or is double jabbed and having protection from being infected a good enough defence? I understand that I can't have the booster for a certain time period after having it. Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

The vax should mean that if you get an active infection, it will be less severe than it otherwise would have been. You may not get symptoms, though. If you had a positive LFT then a PCR, you have n active infection, but a positive PCR could identify virus that is just residing within you, but not actively infection you. An active infection will also boost your immune response. Once it is all over and wattled, I would still get the booster. It is correct that you shouldn't get it during an active infection. I can't remember what the blackout period is, but I think you could easily wait a couple of months.


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## Ethan (Nov 20, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I hope you don't get the Moderna.
I did and although it wasn't bad, it was definitely worse than the Az
		
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I had the Moderna after 2 x Pfizer. Slight dead arm for a while, nowt else.

The Moderna vax may be the most effective of them all. If I were an AZ recipient, I'd want it.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The vax should mean that if you get an active infection, it will be less severe than it otherwise would have been. You may not get symptoms, though. If you had a positive LFT then a PCR, you have n active infection, but a positive PCR could identify virus that is just residing within you, but not actively infection you. An active infection will also boost your immune response. Once it is all over and wattled, I would still get the booster. It is correct that you shouldn't get it during an active infection. I can't remember what the blackout period is, but I think you could easily wait a couple of months.
		
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Thanks. Positive LFT this morning and went for a PCR at 9am. Should get the results back tomorrow. Only got mild cold symptoms at the minute and feeling a bit chesty so it's a big thanks to the vaccine developers from me.


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## Slime (Nov 20, 2021)

I got Pfizer after 2 x AZ, all I got was a massive smile on my face and a huge sense of relief and gratitude.


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



View attachment 39583

Click to expand...

That graph _does_ seem more convincing - at least for return to school for Summer term. I'd like to see the subsequent set of data to see if the trend continues.
However, I can't see anything in the 'Source' that supports that graph - and other stats that show very little change (which challenges the significant rise indicated). Can you? The 'BBC' logo puzzles me...was it 'manufactured'?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That graph _does_ seem more convincing - at least for return to school for Summer term. I'd like to see the subsequent set of data to see if the trend continues.
However, I can't see anything in the 'Source' that supports that graph. Can you? The 'BBC' logo puzzles me...was it 'manufactured'?
		
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I pulled it of a BBC news article


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I pulled it of a BBC news article
		
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You should name the actual source then!
I hope it was 2021 data!
Btw...Note the update to my prev post.
Update...While searching, I did see a BBC article about significant increases in cases in schools in Harrogate - 771/100K which could well have distorted figures.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			You should name the actual source then!
I hope it was 2021 data!
Btw...Note the update to my prev post.
Update...While searching, I did see a BBC article about significant increases in cases in schools in Harrogate - 771/100K which could well have distorted figures.
		
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It was from 1st October 2021.  I can't find any more recent data but I'm not aware of any significant change.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58763845


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## SocketRocket (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It was from 1st October 2021.  I can't find any more recent data but I'm not aware of any significant change.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58763845

Click to expand...

I've looked further on the ONS site and found the attached link that shows infections by age groups that traces through November and there indeed is a significant dip in infection rates.  It's not pertinent to the discussion I had with the previous poster though.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...s/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections


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## Foxholer (Nov 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I've looked further on the ONS site and found the attached link that shows infections by age groups that traces through November and there indeed is a significant dip in infection rates.  It's not pertinent to the discussion I had with the previous poster though.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...s/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/infections

Click to expand...

So no obvious reason for the increase, though it *may* be related to return to school.
The result from CMOs was to offer vaccination to that age group - alegedly to counter disruption of education - where they had previously deemed vaccination 'unnecessary'/benefits marginal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58423152


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## Imurg (Nov 21, 2021)

Upper arm started to tingle a bit last night..woke up this morning and i can barely move it..
Thats work and golf gone for the day...


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I had the Moderna after 2 x Pfizer. Slight dead arm for a while, nowt else.

*The Moderna vax may be the most effective of them all. If I were an AZ recipient, I'd want it*.
		
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@Ethan , as someone who has had two AZ & is due a booster, can I please ask why you say that, as I was leaning towards the Pfizer given the other results I'd seen?  Thanks.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Upper arm started to tingle a bit last night..woke up this morning and i can barely move it..
Thats work and golf gone for the day...

Click to expand...

Is that Moderna? Guy who runs the halfway hut at golf said his arm was really sore for a week. Jab booked for 12.05...yikes! Mind you no golf until Thursday...


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## Imurg (Nov 21, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Is that Moderna? Guy who runs the halfway hut at golf said his arm was really sore for a week. Jab booked for 12.05...yikes! Mind you no golf until Thursday...
		
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I was Pfizered this time....


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## bobmac (Nov 21, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Is that Moderna? Guy who runs the halfway hut at golf said his arm was really sore for a week. Jab booked for 12.05...yikes! Mind you no golf until Thursday...
		
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Don't worry, the intense pain should ease a bit by Thursday


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



@Ethan , as someone who has had two AZ & is due a booster, can I please ask why you say that, as I was leaning towards the Pfizer given the other results I'd seen?  Thanks.
		
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Data was published recently on the effects of mixed vax regimes. The optimal regime was either all Moderna or 2 x Pfizer plus Moderna. 2 x AZ was good but not as good as either 2 x Moderna or Pfizer, but was boosted very well by a Moderna or Pfizer booster. It was quite a small difference between the two, but Moderna slightly better. For 2 x Pfizer, less need for a booster, but best most came from a Moderna, but another Pfizer good too. 

In your situation, getting an mRNA booster of either flavour gives a very good benefit.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Data was published recently on the effects of mixed vax regimes. The optimal regime was either all Moderna or 2 x Pfizer plus Moderna. 2 x AZ was good but not as good as either 2 x Moderna or Pfizer, but was boosted very well by a Moderna or Pfizer booster. It was quite a small difference between the two, but Moderna slightly better. For 2 x Pfizer, less need for a booster, but best most came from a Moderna, but another Pfizer good too.

In your situation, getting an mRNA booster of either flavour gives a very good benefit.
		
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Thanks Ethan.  Would you say the difference is worth seeking out a Moderna booster for (checking the walk in sites tells you what they have), or just take either mRNA?


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## Ethan (Nov 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Thanks Ethan.  Would you say the difference is worth seeking out a Moderna booster for (checking the walk in sites tells you what they have), or just take either mRNA?
		
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Take either, as I was happy to do, difference is very small.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Take either, as I was happy to do, difference is very small.
		
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Thank you.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 21, 2021)

Moderna it was. I didn't wince as David was next to go but it was a bit ouchey!


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## Reemul (Nov 21, 2021)

My 11 year old son tested positive this morning, no symptoms at all, my wife a teacher will be back in class tomorrow as she shows no symptoms and been double vaxxed, my other son has been vaxxed and will be back in school. I shall have to work from home. We have been really careful but seems you cannot avoid it under current rules. Son is still negative under his lateral flow test.

My son eldest, I and wife have also had PCR tests today with results due back tomorrow. None of us have any symptoms of any sort. If we don't have it I cannot see how we don't get it though.


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## Golfmmad (Nov 21, 2021)

Reemul said:



			My 11 year old son tested positive this morning, no symptoms at all, my wife a teacher will be back in class tomorrow as she shows no symptoms and been double vaxxed, my other son has been vaxxed and will be back in school. I shall have to work from home. We have been really careful but seems you cannot avoid it under current rules. Son is still negative under his lateral flow test.

My son eldest, I and wife have also had PCR tests today with results due back tomorrow. None of us have any symptoms of any sort. If we don't have it I cannot see how we don't get it though.
		
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I'd like to give a shout out to all parents and children for what they've had to endure over the last 18months - 2years.
Take my 8year old grandson, him and 15others have Covid plus his two teachers at school. And also his 6 year old sister 
and dad, mum is waiting for results of PCR test. They've had to cancel everything planned for the next 10days, how frustrating.
I know it's the same scenario for most parents and is such a sad way of life for them all.

Sad rant over!


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## Foxholer (Nov 21, 2021)

Reemul said:



			My 11 year old son tested positive this morning, no symptoms at all, *my wife a teacher will be back in class tomorrow as she shows no symptoms and been double vaxxed*, my other son has been vaxxed and will be back in school. I shall have to work from home. We have been really careful but seems you cannot avoid it under current rules. Son is still negative under his lateral flow test.

My son eldest, I and wife have also had PCR tests today with results due back tomorrow. None of us have any symptoms of any sort. If we don't have it I cannot see how we don't get it though.
		
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Do you not think it would be wise - for the sake of 1 day - for her to wait until her PCR test results are available? Symptoms are, I believe, suppressed by vax, so she could be infected - so could potentially be the cause of significant spread! As you posted, you 'cannot see how we don't get it', so she is a potential spreader to other (potential) spreaders!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Do you not think it would be wise - for the sake of 1 day - for her to wait until her PCR test results are available? Symptoms are, I believe, suppressed by vax, so she could be infected - so could potentially be the cause of significant spread!
		
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You can only go by the guidelines though, I mean my mother in law works in a school she had a postive case in her office. So had to pcr..came back negative but next day the head came back positive and she had been working with her all that day so again another PCR (negative) had to go in at all times 

Its mad tho. I could have covid yet my wife can go into work and infect a load of kids


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## Foxholer (Nov 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			You can only go by the guidelines though, I mean my mother in law works in a school she had a postive case in her office. So had to pcr..came back negative but next day the head came back positive and she had been working with her all that day so again another PCR (negative) had to go in at all times

Its mad tho. I could have covid yet my wife can go into work and infect a load of kids
		
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I would have thought that it would be worthwhile - in these situations - to have the Antigen test (even though less 'reliable') to catch infection _before_ the opportunity to spread arises! Schools seem to be an/the environment with obvious potential to spread the virus!


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 21, 2021)

Further dealings today with the shambles that is Test and Trace. Due to my positive test they phoned me to run through all of the questions with me again, including all the personal details for everyone in the house. I said that they should have all of those details as I'd given them on Wednesday when they phoned me about my son and surely my positive result should be linked to his case. I was told that cases don't get linked together. How on earth can they accurately track an outbreak if you aren't linking directly related cases together? She kept asking me about any close contacts I'd had or anywhere I'd been and couldn't or wouldn't accept that I didn't have any. My son tested positive on Tuesday last week and I took him for a PCR test. I tested positive on Saturday morning and went for a PCR test myself and that's it. I haven't left the house apart from that.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I would have thought that it would be worthwhile - in these situations - to have the Antigen test (even though less 'reliable') to catch infection _before_ the opportunity to spread arises! Schools seem to be an/the environment with obvious potential to spread the virus!
		
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Every lateral flow done comes up negative in the situation my mother in law had

Always do a lft at the first point but if that's negative and your waiting for PCR your hands are tied if you can't work from home


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## Reemul (Nov 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Do you not think it would be wise - for the sake of 1 day - for her to wait until her PCR test results are available? Symptoms are, I believe, suppressed by vax, so she could be infected - so could potentially be the cause of significant spread! As you posted, you 'cannot see how we don't get it', so she is a potential spreader to other (potential) spreaders!
		
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We agree (The Wife and I), but the guidelines from the school, track and trace and the government are come in unless you are positive and we won't know that until tomorrow, hopefully.

My work office policy is not to come in until no one in the home has it any longer so I will be working from home for the next 10 days at least.


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## Golfmmad (Nov 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Further dealings today with the shambles that is Test and Trace. Due to my positive test they phoned me to run through all of the questions with me again, including all the personal details for everyone in the house. I said that they should have all of those details as I'd given them on Wednesday when they phoned me about my son and surely my positive result should be linked to his case. I was told that cases don't get linked together. How on earth can they accurately track an outbreak if you aren't linking directly related cases together? She kept asking me about any close contacts I'd had or anywhere I'd been and couldn't or wouldn't accept that I didn't have any. My son tested positive on Tuesday last week and I took him for a PCR test. I tested positive on Saturday morning and went for a PCR test myself and that's it. I haven't left the house apart from that.
		
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My daughter had similar with track and trace. They asked about her daughter and who she had close contact with. She said the other children in her class- "What are their contact details". Apart from a few she doesn't know others details. "But who was she in close contact with and their details". How is she supposed to know her actual movements during the day. And that was after she went through the same questions for her son a few days earlier.
Very frustrating!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Upper arm started to tingle a bit last night..woke up this morning and i can barely move it..
Thats work and golf gone for the day...

Click to expand...

Can I put that down as a win then ? 😎


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## Imurg (Nov 22, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Can I put that down as a win then ? 😎
		
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If that's the only way......


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## Ethan (Nov 22, 2021)

Golfmmad said:



			My daughter had similar with track and trace. They asked about her daughter and who she had close contact with. She said the other children in her class- "What are their contact details". Apart from a few she doesn't know others details. "But who was she in close contact with and their details". How is she supposed to know her actual movements during the day. And that was after she went through the same questions for her son a few days earlier.
Very frustrating!
		
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The algorithm says to collect contact details. I would have thought her year and class should be enough and T&T can chase it up with the school.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The algorithm says to collect contact details. I would have thought her year and class should be enough and T&T can chase it up with the school.
		
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For my younger son they only took school details - didn't take his year or class. As he'd played football on the Sunday they also wanted the address of where he'd played. As it was an away match we gave the postcode for the opposition. They didn't want any details of his own team. 

I'm not convinced how much tracing and follow up is actually being done. It seems more like a stats counting thing to see where cases are geographically and then if it gets too many they try to do something about it.


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## Ethan (Nov 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			For my younger son they only took school details - didn't take his year or class. As he'd played football on the Sunday they also wanted the address of where he'd played. As it was an away match we gave the postcode for the opposition. They didn't want any details of his own team.

*I'm not convinced how much tracing and follow up is actually being done. It seems more like a stats counting thing to see where cases are geographically and then if it gets too many they try to do something about it.*

Click to expand...

T&T is now basically trying to justify its existence and expense. I hope policy decisions are made on the basis of reliable epidemiological data rather than T&T numbers which have been shown to be very unreliable.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2021)

Wife's school has had so many cases from both teachers and pupils PHE got involved and were on site testing staff and children on Saturday and are considering having to either close temporarily (definite staff shortages) or impose restrictions. We jumped from 3 cases on Friday to 7 over the weekend (5 out of 7 unvaccinated)


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 22, 2021)

They've changed the guidance for schools since last week. When younger son tested positive the older one had to stay away from school and get a PCR test on the third day. Spoke to his school this morning after me and Mrs Colch have tested positive and he's now allowed to go to school as long as he has negative LFT every day and then get a PCR test on day five. It just seems as though they're making it up as they go along.


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## Hobbit (Nov 22, 2021)

Daughter #2 has Covid, as does the g´daughter. They were at a family party on Saturday. 42 people!! Surely therés an indoor limit in the UK, or is there just recommendations?


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## williamalex1 (Nov 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2 has Covid, as does the g´daughter. They were at a family party on Saturday. 42 people!! Surely therés an indoor limit in the UK, or is there just recommendations?
		
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I think it depends on the size of the venue, I've seen a few with a maximum capacity notice at the entrance .


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2 has Covid, as does the g´daughter. They were at a family party on Saturday. 42 people!! Surely therés an indoor limit in the UK, or is there just recommendations?
		
Click to expand...

No limits in England, rest of the UK may be different. The only recommendations are to ventilate the room, open windows etc. No number restrictions.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 22, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The algorithm says to collect contact details. I would have thought her year and class should be enough and T&T can chase it up with the school.
		
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Agreed , but Ethan, haven't the last few posts shown that T and T  is a waste of time. Reemul has a positive case in his household, yet the rest are not isolating -see post 22186.
Just what is the point of ringing a positive test case and asking re contacts if the situation is as Reemul describes.
Seems to me T and T is only relevant in a lockdown scenario ?
Golfmmad's experience shows just how limited T and T can ever be.
Never able to recall and identify everyone(most) contacts anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 22, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I think it depends on the size of the venue, I've seen a few with a maximum capacity notice at the entrance .
		
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My lad did three events in a Scotland about three weeks ago…there was over 200 at each.  As it happens he mentioned that the vaccine passports side of things worked well with no hassle or delays for folk going in.  That said there was no vaccine passport checking done at the turnstile when I was going into Hampden last Monday - or any of the turnstiles of the section of the ground.  Mind you there were still thousands queuing to get in at kickoff so maybe they stopped bothering.


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## Ethan (Nov 22, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Agreed , but Ethan, haven't the last few posts shown that T and T  is a waste of time. Reemul has a positive case in his household, yet the rest are not isolating -see post 22186.
Just what is the point of ringing a positive test case and asking re contacts if the situation is as Reemul describes.
Seems to me T and T is only relevant in a lockdown scenario ?
Golfmmad's experience shows just how limited T and T can ever be.
Never able to recall and identify everyone(most) contacts anyway.
		
Click to expand...

T&T as currently set up is a massive waste of time and money. I have said here a number of times that stopping tracing by PHE in spring 2020 was a massive mistake, and instead of wasting time and money on Dido and Serco, they should have scaled up local PHE teams using other NHS staff unable to do their normal jobs and done the tracing as a localised and ground-level activity. Setting up mass testing facilities has a better rationale, so long as they properly categorise the people tested. We needed to know what test positive rates were for cases with symptoms, broken out from those tested as contacts or for routine surveillance. 

I didn't mean to suggest that T&T would make a difference in the school, just that they don't need to interrogate a kid when they can ask the school.


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## D-S (Nov 23, 2021)

I hope this article is right about the UK and overly pessimistic about Continental Europ.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59378849


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## PNWokingham (Nov 23, 2021)

An interesting read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uld-reason-britain-faring-better-europe-says/


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## SocketRocket (Nov 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			An interesting read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uld-reason-britain-faring-better-europe-says/

Click to expand...

Looks like the UK has seen a constant high with infections.  Some of the countries showing a recent increase are those with smaller populations where smaller increases will show higher as a percentage.


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			An interesting read

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...uld-reason-britain-faring-better-europe-says/

Click to expand...

A load of rubbish. He is essentially arguing that although AZ has demonstrably lower primary efficacy and antibody response, it has a superior T-cell response. This makes no sense and must be due to the large amount of wishful thinking added to the vaccine mixture. Both AZ and the mRNA vaccines interact with the immune system in the same way (not all the others do, Novavax for example), but the effects on antibodies and T-cells appear to be proportional. Measuring antibodies is easy, measuring T-cell activity is somewhat harder, but measuring clinical effects overrides both, and mRNAs are clearly more effective. AZ is a good vaccine, though, and has a place. It is worth also noting that the JCVI chose not to offer it as a booster, a decision they would not have taken had there been any evidence that it offered at least a similar additional effect as the mRNAs. 

The reason the rest of Europe is now doing badly where the UK is doing better is that last winter the UK had a large cull of the most vulnerable and they can't die again this winter, and the UK also brought some of its winter pressure forward into the summer. Overall vaccination rates are now similar to the UK in a number of European countries. Arguably, given that they have lower (or no) use of AZ means the effective population immunity is better in a number. Eastern European and Balkan countries lag behind most badly.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			A load of rubbish. He is essentially arguing that although AZ has demonstrably lower primary efficacy and antibody response, it has a superior T-cell response. This makes no sense and must be due to the large amount of wishful thinking added to the vaccine mixture. Both AZ and the mRNA vaccines interact with the immune system in the same way (not all the others do, Novavax for example), but the effects on antibodies and T-cells appear to be proportional. Measuring antibodies is easy, measuring T-cell activity is somewhat harder, but measuring clinical effects overrides both, and mRNAs are clearly more effective. AZ is a good vaccine, though, and has a place. It is worth also noting that the JCVI chose not to offer it as a booster, a decision they would not have taken had there been any evidence that it offered at least a similar additional effect as the mRNAs.

The reason the rest of Europe is now doing badly where the UK is doing better is that last winter the UK had a large cull of the most vulnerable and they can't die again this winter, and the UK also brought some of its winter pressure forward into the summer. Overall vaccination rates are now similar to the UK in a number of European countries. Arguably, given that they have lower (or no) use of AZ means the effective population immunity is better in a number. Eastern European and Balkan countries lag behind most badly.
		
Click to expand...

thank god for that. For a minute i thought maybe the UK had done something well!!


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## davidy233 (Nov 23, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My lad did three events in a Scotland about three weeks ago…there was over 200 at each.  As it happens he mentioned that the vaccine passports side of things worked well with no hassle or delays for folk going in.  That said there was no vaccine passport checking done at the turnstile when I was going into Hampden last Monday - or any of the turnstiles of the section of the ground.  Mind you there were still thousands queuing to get in at kickoff so maybe they stopped bothering.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly stopped bothering at a football ground in Edinburgh I was at a month or so ago with 17,000 is fans - stewards stopped after a big queue built up in a short space of time


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## Ethan (Nov 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			thank god for that. For a minute i thought maybe the UK had done something well!!
		
Click to expand...

The UK did do something well. The doctors, nurses, reception staff, etc etc did a stellar job organising and administering the vaccine.

But your reply hints at the problem.

The vaccination strategy isn't a football match. It isn't a competition between AZ and Pfizer for the Vaccine World Cup. Nor is a matter for thinly disguised glee when there is an outbreak in Germany or France. If AZ is less efficacious than Pfizer, that isn't a problem so long as it is dealt with rationally, it is still a good vaccine, but the implications are that strategy for boosters and other precautions predicated on the immune profile of the population need to be considered carefully, not by defending the team. The JCVI made the right decision not to include AZ in the booster strategy.

Soriot was brought into AZ to sell the company, ironically to Pfizer. But he overplayed his hand and they walked away. He is known to be a bit of a .... what's that word ... and has over promised quite a few things with this vax. On Radio 4 this morning, he said "There's no proof of anything, we don't know, but we need more data to analyse this and get the answer." Let me translate that for you - "we are just making this stuff up" but it has achieved its intention of making headlines on BBC and Sky News. It may or may not be a coincidence that he was talking on the same day that Kate Bingham trailed a speech at which she robustly defends the UK procurement strategy, which of course majored on AZ.


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## chellie (Nov 23, 2021)

HID had his booster today. After having had two AZ's he was given the Moderna today as "that's what they had had delivered" So far he has no issues.


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## yandabrown (Nov 23, 2021)

Had my Pfizer booster today, chap in the waiting lounge was telling us how all these injection had cured his needle phobia, at this point another fellow told us of his first injection at school, they told them the week before that they would have one and he asked his mum what an injection was. She told him that they put some special liquid on a needle and stuck it into you arm to stop you getting ill. Trouble was he had only ever seen knitting needles and was scared blankless! Come the day he saw all the kids in front of him in the queue come out crying which made him feel no better. Once he was inside and saw the tiny needle he laughed in relief and has never been scared of needles since.


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			Had my Pfizer booster today, chap in the waiting lounge was telling us how all these injection had cured his needle phobia, at this point another fellow told us of his first injection at school, they told them the week before that they would have one and he asked his mum what an injection was. She told him that they put some special liquid on a needle and stuck it into you arm to stop you getting ill. Trouble was he had only ever seen knitting needles and was scared blankless! Come the day he saw all the kids in front of him in the queue come out crying which made him feel no better. Once he was inside and saw the tiny needle he laughed in relief and has never been scared of needles since.
		
Click to expand...

The IM injection sounds unpleasant, but the needle is such a fine gauge that it really isn't. Muscle is not very sensitive, so once it gets through the skin and subcutaneous tissue, should be fine. The needle used for blood taking is a thicker one and you feel it more, in my opinion.


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## bobmac (Nov 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The needle used for blood taking is a thicker one and you feel it more, in my opinion.
		
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That's true, in my experience


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## AliMc (Nov 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I hope you don't get the Moderna.
I did and although it wasn't bad, it was definitely worse than the Az
		
Click to expand...

I had the Moderna booster last week along with the flu jab, one in each arm, had no issues whatsoever


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			That's true, in my experience
		
Click to expand...

Needles have a coloured plastic piece where they connect to the syringe. This denotes the width of the channel in the needle. This is important because some medicines that are injected are thick, and sometimes blood drawn can be damaged if the needle is too thin. 

The normal blood sample needle is a green needle, which has a 21G thickness. There is another commonly used thinner needle, a blue needle, with a 23G thickness. This is sometimes used for blood sample in kids or in tricky veins. IM injection usually uses the blue needle, or even one size thinner. All of the needles are very sharp, which helps. The main unpleasantness is trying to push it through the skin. If it slips in like a hot knife through butter, much less pain. A good injector should usually be able to inject basically without any pain. A good decisive action is best, hesitation or fumbling is not good. 

If you are unfortunate enough to be in an accident or other situation where you need fluid resuscitation with large volumes of (often rather gloopy) fluid administered fast, then a needle or cannula that looks more like a knitting needle will be used. Flow rates are related to the 4th power of the radius of a pipe or tube, so getting in a larger needle/cannula increases flow rate a huge amount especially something gloppy like blood or colloid.


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## drdel (Nov 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			A load of rubbish. He is essentially arguing that although AZ has demonstrably lower primary efficacy and antibody response, it has a superior T-cell response. This makes no sense and must be due to the large amount of wishful thinking added to the vaccine mixture. Both AZ and the mRNA vaccines interact with the immune system in the same way (not all the others do, Novavax for example), but the effects on antibodies and T-cells appear to be proportional. Measuring antibodies is easy, measuring T-cell activity is somewhat harder, but measuring clinical effects overrides both, and mRNAs are clearly more effective. AZ is a good vaccine, though, and has a place. It is worth also noting that the JCVI chose not to offer it as a booster, a decision they would not have taken had there been any evidence that it offered at least a similar additional effect as the mRNAs.

The reason the rest of Europe is now doing badly where the UK is doing better is that last winter the UK had a large cull of the most vulnerable and they can't die again this winter, and the UK also brought some of its winter pressure forward into the summer. Overall vaccination rates are now similar to the UK in a number of European countries. Arguably, given that they have lower (or no) use of AZ means the effective population immunity is better in a number. Eastern European and Balkan countries lag behind most badly.
		
Click to expand...

Your second paragraph ìs supposition since the various nations have attributed deaths based on different variables. The view expressed seems tainted by an anti-AZ stance. I'm inclined to give the CEO of AZ some credence.


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2021)

drdel said:



			Your second paragraph ìs supposition since the various nations have attributed deaths based on different variables. The view expressed seems tainted by an anti-AZ stance. I'm inclined to give the CEO of AZ some credence.
		
Click to expand...

It is not supposition to look at cases and death rates through last year until now. There is simply a different time dynamic between the UK and some other large European countries. I am not anti-AZ vaccine, I have frequently said that it is a good vaccine and has a role. But it is not a matter of opinion that it is less effective than the mRNAs. Sorry if that displeases you, but that is how it is. I also believe, as do others in industry, that AZ was not the right partner for Oxford, and a partner with a track record of vaccine development and scalable manufacturing capacity would have been better.

Pascal Soriot has established his own track record of saying stuff that was later shown to be incorrect, starting with the timelines and quantities expected for the AZ vaccine. Credence is earned. He admitted yesterday that there is no evidence at all of what he says and the response in social media within the UK medical community has been in line with mine. If you have a theory about how a markedly superior effect on antibodies by mRNAs over adenovirus vectors is overturned to become a superior effect on T-cells by the adenovirus vectors, which is essentially what he was waffling about, I would be happy to see it. The conventional understanding of the human immune response to vaccines can then be rewritten.

I don't blame Soriot for puffing up his product, just as they announce they intend to make some money from it, but he was not talking science he was doing PR. I thought you would have spotted that.

Edit: See this twitter thread from Christina Pagel on UK vs Europe comparisons: link


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## DRW (Nov 24, 2021)

Decided to buy some antibody tests (not convinced they are that sensitive but anyway the pictures paint the gest of what they indicate) :-

Click on pictures for bigger ones.

Late Middle aged person, 5 month post 2 x AZ, soon to be boosted(going for pfizer as the better safety profile) :-







Young person, 3 months post 2 x Pfizer :-







Old way past retirement age person, 2 weeks post Pfizer Boost , 2 AZ originally :-







Happy moving into December and changing things up, at the least the oldest has the strongest line.


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## Crazyface (Nov 24, 2021)

if the current rate of new infections keeps up everyone in the country will have had the virus in four years.


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## DRW (Nov 24, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			if the current rate of new infections keeps up everyone in the country will have had the virus in four years.
		
Click to expand...

Are you saying that as a surprise ? 

I would be surprised if it takes 4 years for the vast amount of the population to catch covid at least once(whether they know about it or not).

Time will tell how this will unfold and anyone telling you they know are plain lying


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## theoneandonly (Nov 24, 2021)

You do bad mouth AZ at every opportunity,  did they turn you down for a job or something 🤣🙃😅😀😱


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2021)

DRW said:



			Are you saying that as a surprise ?

I would be surprised if it takes 4 years for the vast amount of the population to catch covid at least once(whether they know about it or not).

Time will tell how this will unfold and anyone telling you they know are plain lying

Click to expand...

That's the thing with endemic infections, they get around.


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## DRW (Nov 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That's the thing with endemic infections, they get around.
		
Click to expand...

You have been reading Pagels twitter page again, said not to. I heard you cant beat going to 'alot' of shops once you have shown symptoms whilst being so careful. Think that might help to get it around.

Prof. Christina Pagel on Twitter: "Secondly masks: the first symptoms were so innocuous it was only obvious later what they were. I was 100% convinced we didn't have Covid cos we'd been so careful. The weekend before symptoms and 1st day of, we were in *a lot* of shops. 3/8" / Twitter 

Its amazing what people post and think its okay to and from people who should know better.


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## drdel (Nov 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is not supposition to look at cases and death rates through last year until now. There is simply a different time dynamic between the UK and some other large European countries. I am not anti-AZ vaccine, I have frequently said that it is a good vaccine and has a role. But it is not a matter of opinion that it is less effective than the mRNAs. Sorry if that displeases you, but that is how it is. I also believe, as do others in industry, that AZ was not the right partner for Oxford, and a partner with a track record of vaccine development and scalable manufacturing capacity would have been better.

Pascal Soriot has established his own track record of saying stuff that was later shown to be incorrect, starting with the timelines and quantities expected for the AZ vaccine. Credence is earned. He admitted yesterday that there is no evidence at all of what he says and the response in social media within the UK medical community has been in line with mine. If you have a theory about how a markedly superior effect on antibodies by mRNAs over adenovirus vectors is overturned to become a superior effect on T-cells by the adenovirus vectors, which is essentially what he was waffling about, I would be happy to see it. The conventional understanding of the human immune response to vaccines can then be rewritten.

I don't blame Soriot for puffing up his product, just as they announce they intend to make some money from it, but he was not talking science he was doing PR. I thought you would have spotted that.

Edit: See this twitter thread from Christina Pagel on UK vs Europe comparisons: link

Click to expand...

Just for the record; in 2014 Pfizer made an unsolicited bid for AZ which was rejected


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## Hobbit (Nov 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Daughter #2 has Covid, as does the g´daughter. They were at a family party on Saturday. 42 people!! Surely therés an indoor limit in the UK, or is there just recommendations?
		
Click to expand...

Two more g’children, who were at the party, have it. Daughter-in-law thought one of them was ill but went anyway…. “Walks away shaking head…”


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2021)

drdel said:



			Just for the record; in 2014 Pfizer made an unsolicited bid for AZ which was rejected
		
Click to expand...

I know. They should have accepted it. Soriot was CEO then, but, as I said here earlier, overplayed his hand and Pfizer got fed up and walked.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Needles have a coloured plastic piece where they connect to the syringe. This denotes the width of the channel in the needle. This is important because some medicines that are injected are thick, and sometimes blood drawn can be damaged if the needle is too thin.

The normal blood sample needle is a green needle, which has a 21G thickness. There is another commonly used thinner needle, a blue needle, with a 23G thickness. This is sometimes used for blood sample in kids or in tricky veins. IM injection usually uses the blue needle, or even one size thinner. All of the needles are very sharp, which helps. The main unpleasantness is trying to push it through the skin. If it slips in like a hot knife through butter, much less pain. A good injector should usually be able to inject basically without any pain. A good decisive action is best, hesitation or fumbling is not good.

If you are unfortunate enough to be in an accident or other situation where you need fluid resuscitation with large volumes of (often rather gloopy) fluid administered fast, then a needle or cannula that looks more like a knitting needle will be used. Flow rates are related to the 4th power of the radius of a pipe or tube, so getting in a larger needle/cannula increases flow rate a huge amount especially something gloppy like blood or colloid.
		
Click to expand...

While getting a cannula put in yesterday, for a CT heart scan, the nurse explained to the young student nurse how to insert and remove it, to prevent/reduce any bruising.
She said " when taking the cannula out ,immediately exert pressure on the exit wound and press hard for at least 20 seconds then check, especially if the patient is on any blood thinning meds ".
It worked very well , I never felt a thing going in or out and not a bruise in site, happy days.
I just hope the results are as good


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## Ethan (Nov 24, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			While getting a cannula put in yesterday, for a CT heart scan, the nurse explained to the young student nurse how to insert and remove it, to prevent/reduce any bruising.
She said " when taking the cannula out ,immediately exert pressure on the exit wound and press hard for at least 20 seconds then check, especially if the patient is on any blood thinning meds ".
It worked very well , I never felt a thing going in or out and not a bruise in site, happy days.
I just hope the results are as good 

Click to expand...

She's not wrong. A piece of cotton and a bit of tape is no good.


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## williamalex1 (Nov 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			She's not wrong. A piece of cotton and a bit of tape is no good.
		
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She went on to explain to the student that if not pressed hard enough the blood will leak under the skin leaving an unnecessary bruise, for the sake of a few more seconds.


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## drdel (Nov 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I know. They should have accepted it. Soriot was CEO then, but, as I said here earlier, overplayed his hand and Pfizer got fed up and walked.
		
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Still bending the facts: the Government of the day stepped in due to competition interests. Enough of a tangent.


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## larmen (Nov 25, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			if the current rate of new infections keeps up everyone in the country will have had the virus in four years.
		
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The German health minister (until yesterday, I think. They signed the new coalition contracts, big reshuffle coming) is expecting everyone to have had it this winter. He expressed it a bit more dramatic.

Geimpft, genesen, gestorben.
Translates to vaccinated, recovered or died. Didn’t mention be a group of not vaccinated and having avoided it all along.

It’s a pun on the rules of eventsor public transport in Germany, geimpft, genesen, getestet.

Anyway, it’s herd immunity reached. Luckily mostly by vaccination.


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2021)

drdel said:



*Still bending the facts...*

Click to expand...




drdel said:



			...the Government of the day stepped in due to competition interests....
		
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Twaddle!
While there was certainly (understandable) 'interest' by/from the Government at the time - and no doubt plenty of discussion/chatter at 'clubs' - the rejection was 'purely' financial and by AZ. Plenty of articles still around to remind/correct your memory!


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			Still bending the facts: the Government of the day stepped in due to competition interests. Enough of a tangent.
		
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I think you started the tangent. 

On the deal, surely AZ declined the revised Pfizer bid as not having increased enough. The UK Govt had not formally intervened and would have needed to use EU law to do so.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I know. They should have accepted it. Soriot was CEO then, but, as I said here earlier, overplayed his hand and Pfizer got fed up and walked.
		
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and very glad they failed as they would have likely stripped out growth form the UK market in the pharma area rather than the significant investment that has occured - new £1 billion cambridge campus opening right now for example. And it leaves one of the top UK companies as a UK company. But more importantly, AZ shares were undervalued in the bid and Soiret has delivered brilliant returns for the investors and fund managers that backed him. The shares have roughly doubled since the bid and that return is reflected in pension funds of UK people rather than losing one of the footsies best performers. Pfizer shares in mid 2020 - before the massive covid boost - were trading flat to when they made the bid in Q2 2014 - and put that into even more context - the FTSE 100 is about 10% higher in the last 7.5 years - the S&P 500 is up near 140%.

So not quite sure how he overplayed his hand!


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			and very glad they failed as they would have likely stripped out growth form the UK market in the pharma area rather than the significant investment that has occured - new £1 billion cambridge campus opening right now for example. And it leaves one of the top UK companies as a UK company. But more importantly, AZ shares were undervalued in the bid and Soiret has delivered brilliant returns for the investors and fund managers that backed him. The shares have roughly doubled since the bid and that return is reflected in pension funds of UK people rather than losing one of the footsies best performers. Pfizer shares in mid 2020 - before the massive covid boost - were trading flat to when they made the bid in Q2 2014 - and put that into even more context - the FTSE 100 is about 10% higher in the last 7.5 years - the S&P 500 is up near 140%.

So not quite sure how he overplayed his hand!
		
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Because he had been charged by his Board to get a big deal and a deal with Pfizer was considered a very big one indeed. AZ shares were valued by Pfizer at 45% over the value right before Pfizer expressed an interest, and as the deal was essentially a tax inversion deal, it should have brought more Pfizer activity to the UK. AZ is a Swedish-UK company (in same order as the constituent names). The US remains their biggest market, so access there via Pfizer's monstrous marketing machine could have driven sales quite strongly and would have benefitted the bottom line in the UK. 

Yahoo tells me that PFE share price in April 2014, when the AZ bid was made was in the area (depending on date) of $28. It is $50.89 now. I see you have fished around for the recent low point for your comparison. On the same day as that low PFE price, AZ share price was also at a recent low, £6.316, now £8.551. I am not sure you can make much of an argument out of that. 

Soriot has made big pronouncements and predictions before, and on the Covid vaccine a few of them, mostly on timelines and supply, dramatically failed to materialise.

AZ is a great company in some areas, oncology, for example, but was not a major vaccine developer or maker. They have done well in recent years,  much of that based on long-standing development projects. Some of the acquisitions and licensing deals done in recent years have yet to play out, because there is a long lead time, but they may be great.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Because he had been charged by his Board to get a big deal and a deal with Pfizer was considered a very big one indeed. AZ shares were valued by Pfizer at 45% over the value right before Pfizer expressed an interest, and as the deal was essentially a tax inversion deal, it should have brought more Pfizer activity to the UK. AZ is a Swedish-UK company (in same order as the constituent names). The US remains their biggest market, so access there via Pfizer's monstrous marketing machine could have driven sales quite strongly and would have benefitted the bottom line in the UK.

Yahoo tells me that PFE share price in April 2014, when the AZ bid was made was in the area (depending on date) of $28. It is $50.89 now. I see you have fished around for the recent low point for your comparison. On the same day as that low PFE price, AZ share price was also at a recent low, £6.316, now £8.551. I am not sure you can make much of an argument out of that.

Soriot has made big pronouncements and predictions before, and on the Covid vaccine a few of them, mostly on timelines and supply, dramatically failed to materialise.

AZ is a great company in some areas, oncology, for example, but was not a major vaccine developer or maker. They have done well in recent years,  much of that based on long-standing development projects. Some of the acquisitions and licensing deals done in recent years have yet to play out, because there is a long lead time, but they may be great.
		
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i took mmid 2020 for Pfizer as they have obviously made tens of billions from covid - but even looking at the share price now - $50, compared to when they bid in 2014 of around $30, they will have still underperfromed Astra. And it was nice to see the bid rejected and another British (Anglo-Swiss. Yes. More British than Swiss if you count it has its global headquarters in the uk and Zenecca shareholders had 53.5% of the merged comapny and its primary listing is on the LSE and it is a PLC - a public company under UK law) company remain headquarterd, part of the local indices and a global success story. If you compare AZ share price before the bid interst then they would be 200%+ up. It just shows how undervalued they were and that they had a great deal in the pipeline, that they have delivered on that and that they remain British and that investors saw through the quick buck to be made and focused on the long-term value. And all of our pension savings have benefitted from that.


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i took mmid 2020 for Pfizer as they have obviously made tens of billions from covid - but even looking at the share price now - $50, compared to when they bid in 2014 of around $30, they will have still underperfromed Astra. And it was nice to see the bid rejected and another British (Anglo-Swiss. Yes. More British than Swiss if you count it has its global headquarters in the uk and Zenecca shareholders had 53.5% of the merged comapny and its primary listing is on the LSE and it is a PLC - a public company under UK law) company remain headquarterd, part of the local indices and a global success story. If you compare AZ share price before the bid interst then they would be 200%+ up. It just shows how undervalued they were and that they had a great deal in the pipeline, that they have delivered on that and that they remain British and that investors saw through the quick buck to be made and focused on the long-term value. And all of our pension savings have benefitted from that.
		
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Cool. It is kinda cute the way you cling to the nationalistic issue. In reality, AZ are a multinational global company. So are GSK. Your pension pot should be benefitting from global companies. Mine does. Keep watching those share prices. Hope you noticed those which fell due to Brexit-related harm too.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Cool. It is kinda cute the way you cling to the nationalistic issue. In reality, AZ are a multinational global company. So are GSK. Your pension pot should be benefitting from global companies. Mine does. Keep watching those share prices. Hope you noticed those which fell due to Brexit-related harm too.
		
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it's kinda cute you seem to take the un-nationalistic approach on most issues - and you brought up brexit just now - that was nothing to do what i was talking about. But hey-ho, any chance for a dig and to link something spurious back to that event (one that i voted against FWIW) or government policies. And the fact is that having Astra as a UK company has benefitted our pensions AND has clearly been proven to be a smart move by not accepting Pfizer's bid for anyone holding the shares. Most UK pensions are much more biased to UK than global and more investors are likely to choose UK funds than global (much more so when you weight the capitalisation of the UK market in global terms - it is less than 5% and most people have way more than that as a % in uk invested assets), and mom and pop etc are much more likely to have some money in a UK listed company than a US listed alternative - so the more breadth of "local" options the better


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## AmandaJR (Nov 25, 2021)

Shopping at Lidl today and mask wearing at an all time low. I'd say 10% and most of those seem to have forgotten all about social distancing as they reached over people whilst chatting away to their shopping buddy. I just got madder and madder. It's like this pandemic hasn't happened and isn't happening - idiots.

The upside of a mask is I can mouth all sorts of obscenities in their direction and not get into a Lidl scrap!


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## SaintHacker (Nov 25, 2021)

My friend is still hanging in there, just. Speaking to his daughter today it turns out no one medical thought to tell him his vaccines would be far less effective as he is on immunosupressants. Had he known chances are he would have been far more careful


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 25, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Shopping at Lidl today and mask wearing at an all time low. I'd say 10% and most of those seem to have forgotten all about social distancing as they reached over people whilst chatting away to their shopping buddy. I just got madder and madder. It's like this pandemic hasn't happened and isn't happening - idiots.

The upside of a mask is I can mouth all sorts of obscenities in their direction and not get into a Lidl scrap!
		
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Same on the train home each day. The one I get is full of school kids (one of the highest spreaders at the moment and loads of kids at HID's school testing positive). I could get a bus home but again full of kids so not taking that risk. I keep my mask on during the train journey and now sitting in a carriage further away from the barriers where less people congregate


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2021)

Foxholer said:





Twaddle!
While there was certainly (understandable) 'interest' by/from the Government at the time - and no doubt plenty of discussion/chatter at 'clubs' - the rejection was 'purely' financial and by AZ. Plenty of articles still around to remind/correct your memory!
		
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I fail to see why you need to be childishly rude when you make your prouncements,  comments which are after all just opinions.


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			it's kinda cute you seem to take the un-nationalistic approach on most issues - and you brought up brexit just now - that was nothing to do what i was talking about. But hey-ho, any chance for a dig and to link something spurious back to that event (one that i voted against FWIW) or government policies. And the fact is that having Astra as a UK company has benefitted our pensions AND has clearly been proven to be a smart move by not accepting Pfizer's bid for anyone holding the shares. Most UK pensions are much more biased to UK than global and more investors are likely to choose UK funds than global (much more so when you weight the capitalisation of the UK market in global terms - it is less than 5% and most people have way more than that as a % in uk invested assets), and mom and pop etc are much more likely to have some money in a UK listed company than a US listed alternative - so the more breadth of "local" options the better
		
Click to expand...

You seem concerned in long term economic effects that impinge on your pension. I do agree that I am not blinded by reflexive nationalism. 

You have no idea how Pfizer-Astra would have done as a UK tax-domiciled company, it would have dominated oncology research and sales, or how much extra tax revenues as discussed here it would have brought to the UK. Any I suspect that more UK investment houses would have invested in it and it may have sought a listing in London. 

But hey-ho, any chance for some flag-waving. 

Shall we agree this exchange has run its course?


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## Foxholer (Nov 25, 2021)

drdel said:



			I fail to see why you need to be childishly rude when you make your prouncements,  comments which are after all just opinions.
		
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Thanks for acknowledging the veracity of my post.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You seem concerned in long term economic effects that impinge on your pension. I do agree that I am not blinded by reflexive nationalism.

You have no idea how Pfizer-Astra would have done as a UK tax-domiciled company, it would have dominated oncology research and sales, or how much extra tax revenues as discussed here it would have brought to the UK. Any I suspect that more UK investment houses would have invested in it and it may have sought a listing in London.

But hey-ho, any chance for some flag-waving.

*Shall we agree this exchange has run its course?*

Click to expand...


I think that is a good suggestion 👍


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2021)

Not great news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418127


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Not great news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418127

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Not good at all. This is what happens when you have a partly vaccinated population but a decent rump of the unvaccinated. The vaccinated portion means the virus's evolution has to up its game, but the unvaccinated portion means it is extra potent.  

But if a variant that is resistant to existing vaccines comes along, we are screwed and back to square one.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not good at all. This is what happens when you have a partly vaccinated population but a decent rump of the unvaccinated. The vaccinated portion means the virus's evolution has to up its game, but the unvaccinated portion means it is extra potent. 

But if a variant that is resistant to existing vaccines comes along, we are screwed and back to square one.
		
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This is probably over simplistic but I can remember Polio vaccinations (If that's the correct description)  were given to children on a lump of sugar, it would be great if Covid boosters could be given this way.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not good at all. This is what happens when you have a partly vaccinated population but a decent rump of the unvaccinated. The vaccinated portion means the virus's evolution has to up its game, but the unvaccinated portion means it is extra potent. 

But if a variant that is resistant to existing vaccines comes along, we are screwed and back to square one.
		
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Is it actually that bad though Ethan? From a completely non-medical view point the fact that one of the quotes in the article is "There is a lot of speculation, but very few clear answers" seems to suggest that they don't yet know if this is going to be bad or not. Is it possible that it is highly mutated and could be far more transmissible and evade the vaccines, so that far more people get it, but be far less deadly and only give mild symptoms to those that do get it?


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## Ethan (Nov 25, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is it actually that bad though Ethan? From a completely non-medical view point the fact that one of the quotes in the article is "There is a lot of speculation, but very few clear answers" seems to suggest that they don't yet know if this is going to be bad or not. Is it possible that it is highly mutated and could be far more transmissible and evade the vaccines, so that far more people get it, but be far less deadly and only give mild symptoms to those that do get it?
		
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Viral evolution is reasonably well studied, and it is true that the specific effects of a given virus are not easily predicted. In general, viruses don't do well if they kill people, especially fast, because they can't spread effectively, so over time many viruses weekend and even if they become more transmissible, no big deal like the mass of different viruses that cause the common cold, some of which are coronaviruses. But like the flu, now and again a real bad variety comes along, and causes a lot of deaths.

The problem with Covid (OK, that's the disease rather than the virus) is that it is still lrealtvely early in its evolution, so the slow slide into middle age being a bitter rather than a danger, is still some way off. This one is still looking for action. Most of the vaccines are directed against the Spike, the sticky out bit, but this new variant appears to be evolving in other areas too, and that could spell trouble for vaccines. 

The danger scenario would be if it had a longer incubation period during which it could transmit, and vaccination provided limited protection. Then it can spread widely quietly. If it starts to circulate widely, then that drives further mutation. It is better to speculate a bit wildly (worst case scenario) and over-react than relax and under-react.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 26, 2021)

So a kind of tricky question and maybe one @Ethan can help with. It's about level of risk. I work in primary schools instructing Bikeability (think Cycling Proficiency in the modern world!). Most contact with riders (years 3 to 6) is outside although breaks are spent in school and the necessary signing in/out etc. There are Covid guidelines in place for us but it can be tricky to avoid contact with ill-fitting cycle helmets plus handling bikes to check their road worthiness. 

So today was a group of year 3 in the morning and year 4 in the afternoon. At least one on the register couldn't attend due to testing positive for Covid. 

We have to test twice weekly but I'm wondering what my risk is of contracting it (triple jabbed) but most importantly being asymptomatic and passing it on inadvertantly. I have a social event tomorrow evening in a pub and I'm thinking it wisest not to attend...


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## road2ruin (Nov 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			So a kind of tricky question and maybe one @Ethan can help with. It's about level of risk. I work in primary schools instructing Bikeability (think Cycling Proficiency in the modern world!). Most contact with riders (years 3 to 6) is outside although breaks are spent in school and the necessary signing in/out etc. There are Covid guidelines in place for us but it can be tricky to avoid contact with ill-fitting cycle helmets plus handling bikes to check their road worthiness.

So today was a group of year 3 in the morning and year 4 in the afternoon. At least one on the register couldn't attend due to testing positive for Covid.

We have to test twice weekly but I'm wondering what my risk is of contracting it (triple jabbed) but most importantly being asymptomatic and passing it on inadvertantly. I have a social event tomorrow evening in a pub and I'm thinking it wisest not to attend...
		
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Sorry to wade it but my opinion on this would be that you are highly likely to contract Covid at some point whether it be from the kids in primary school or going to your social event in the pub, given that the bike thing is outside I'd say that you are more likely to get it in the boozer!! The fact that you are now triple jabbed means that your are protected so don't miss out on things in fear of getting it, if you do you'd be unlucky to get very ill with it. Again, with the passing on thing you can miss your pub event and then go and spread it round something else without knowing if you were asymptomatic, you can't stop doing things on the basis of maybe passing it on. Just my two penneth worth. Hopefully you enjoy the pub!


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## DRW (Nov 26, 2021)

You are also infection recovered plus 3 dose. You have the best protection out there tbh, lab and real life stuff shows this.

The only thing you can do more, is to test yourself before going or not go. Pass on that score tho...

See this chart(from ONS), that gives you a good indication. The rest is down to you, only you can decide what you are comfortable with tbh, not some wally like me from a forum.:-


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			So a kind of tricky question and maybe one @Ethan can help with. It's about level of risk. I work in primary schools instructing Bikeability (think Cycling Proficiency in the modern world!). Most contact with riders (years 3 to 6) is outside although breaks are spent in school and the necessary signing in/out etc. There are Covid guidelines in place for us but it can be tricky to avoid contact with ill-fitting cycle helmets plus handling bikes to check their road worthiness.

So today was a group of year 3 in the morning and year 4 in the afternoon. At least one on the register couldn't attend due to testing positive for Covid.

We have to test twice weekly but I'm wondering what my risk is of contracting it (triple jabbed) but most importantly being asymptomatic and passing it on inadvertantly. I have a social event tomorrow evening in a pub and I'm thinking it wisest not to attend...
		
Click to expand...

Much the same as R2R, in my opinion. 

Being outside makes a big difference, and if the close contact, helmets, checking bikes is relatively brief, unless one of the little dears who is asymptomatically infected coughs right in your face, the risk is probably pretty low. If the indoor sessions are decently ventilated, that helps too.

But in the longer run, I think as long as Covid is endemic, it is going to circulate round and infect many people over and over and probably all of us eventually. Triple jabbed is the new fully vaccinated, so the risk of a bad outcome to being infected is very low. But vaccination is not a substitute for sensible social measures, so keep those up.

The new Botswana variant is a concern, though, and that could change things quite a bit, especially if it shows signs of vaccine escape. Vaccines would still help, but instead of stopping you getting any symptoms, you might get a mild case, some who would have got a mild case of another variant might get a moderate case of Botswana etc.


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## Foxholer (Nov 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			So a kind of tricky question and maybe one @Ethan can help with. It's about level of risk. I work in primary schools instructing Bikeability (think Cycling Proficiency in the modern world!). Most contact with riders (years 3 to 6) is outside although breaks are spent in school and the necessary signing in/out etc. There are Covid guidelines in place for us but it can be tricky to avoid contact with ill-fitting cycle helmets plus handling bikes to check their road worthiness.

So today was a group of year 3 in the morning and year 4 in the afternoon. At least one on the register couldn't attend due to testing positive for Covid.

We have to test twice weekly but I'm wondering what my risk is of contracting it (triple jabbed) but most importantly being asymptomatic and passing it on inadvertantly. I have a social event tomorrow evening in a pub and I'm thinking it wisest not to attend...
		
Click to expand...

The range of ages you are dealing with (Age 2 to School Year 6) have, according to the latest Gov.UK report, just swapped with the previous highest infecton rate (School Years 7 to 12) though the change is only 0.2 an 0.1% resp in each direction (to 3.7 and 3.5% resp). So I think you are still wise to restrict your 'social' activity - especially in 'frequent close proximity' venues such as pubs.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2021)

About this new variant - I’m worried, worried, worried as i fear too many of us have got used to life with minimal or no constraints…and rather prefer it to the ‘oh I’m fed up with all of this’ life of constraints, caution and lockdown.  I wont bet my bottom dollar on it, but I fear the proximity of Christmas may sway the thinking of some on what we might have to (re)start doing.


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## Imurg (Nov 26, 2021)

Let's be honest...the chances are that it's already here....apparently Belgium has a case....
With SA on the list there must thousands of people who have been to or come from SA in the last week alone....add in Zimbabwe and the others.
Could make for an interesting winter.........


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## AmandaJR (Nov 26, 2021)

Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I've found myself in a weird place where I've become too risk averse and could allow that to impact on my life too much.


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## Foxholer (Nov 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I've found myself in a weird place where I've become too risk averse and could allow that to impact on my life too much.
		
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Given your particular circumstances, I believe being risk averse is both 'natural' and 'to be commended'! I've observed some seriously 'other end of the scale' activities/incidents - at least one of which had serious consequences, though, fortunately, not for me!


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## D-S (Nov 26, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			About this new variant - I’m worried, worried, worried as i fear too many of us have got used to life with minimal or no constraints…and rather prefer it to the ‘oh I’m fed up with all of this’ life of constraints, caution and lockdown.  I wont get my bottom dollar on it, but I fear the proximity of Christmas may sway the thinking of some on what we might have to (re)start doing.
		
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__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464269360126697475


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## RichA (Nov 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I've found myself in a weird place where I've become too risk averse and could allow that to impact on my life too much.
		
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You can still do most of the things you enjoy while being sensible and cautious. You can always suggest sitting / standing in a better ventilated, better spaced out area. If you're not comfortable, you can always leave early to deal with something at home you've just had a text message about. I've been doing that for decades.


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## Hobbit (Nov 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I've found myself in a weird place where I've become too risk averse and could allow that to impact on my life too much.
		
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The WHO did a great piece detailing those that contracted Covid, and where from. Outside activities came in at 0.06% of those contracting Covid. Add in the jabs and I’d put a solid bet on you being ok.  Think supermarkets came in at 19%…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2021)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1464269360126697475

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Which is fine….but what we must not do is be lax and easy-oasie about letting it in and letting it spread because we might in the weeks to come discover that it is dangerous.  We should instead consult Captain Hindsight…from whom we will learn that we must act fast and hard; we must close the barn door before the horse has a chance to bolt; and that he who hesitates is lost…there are no excuses.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 26, 2021)

We've had Covid in the house for the last 10+ days. Younger boy tested positive on 16th Nov and has come through it with very mild symptoms. I tested positive on 20th Nov and had a couple of rough days with muscle aches but in general have only had mild cold symptoms. Mrs Colch tested positive on 22nd Nov (although almost certainly had it from 20th) and is the worst out of all of us. Main issue seems to be a severe headache. All of the above were positive LFT confirmed with positive PCR. Older boy tested positive on LFT yesterday, 25th Nov, and had the strongest positive result out of all us on the LFT. His PCR test has come back today as negative. Just done another LFT on him and that's also negative. No idea how older boy has managed to escape getting it when the other three of us in the house have all had it.


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## road2ruin (Nov 26, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is fine….but what we must not do is be lax and easy-oasie about letting it in and letting it spread because we might in the weeks to come discover that it is dangerous.  We should instead consult Captain Hindsight…from whom we will learn that we must act fast and hard; we must close the barn door before the horse has a chance to bolt; and that he who hesitates is lost…there are no excuses.
		
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All new variants will eventually make it onto our shores, nothing you can do to stop it. Putting the African countries on the red list will buy us a little time for more research to have been done on the variant however, as mentioned, there's probably a fair chance that it's here already.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 26, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I've found myself in a weird place where I've become too risk averse and could allow that to impact on my life too much.
		
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At my age, I'm more cautious than not. Especially as the ironic thing is that at this time, the incidence of infections in my area is higher than any previous time since this started.
To me, the places where infections are picked up mostly is at indoor functions where groups gather to eat. Social "do's" to celebrate something etc.
This is a pain. I'd love to go to the clubs turkey trot lunch etc, but I choose not to.Dont go to restaurants either. Haven't seen anything to suggest that ventilation at these places now is anything different to pre  Covid
Ethan may be right that we are all going to get it somewhen. I'm hoping that that moment may as far away as possible so that Im stronger and it's weaker,
But then that probably won't apply, either 😀


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			All new variants will eventually make it onto our shores, nothing you can do to stop it. Putting the African countries on the red list will buy us a little time for more research to have been done on the variant however, as mentioned, there's probably a fair chance that it's here already.
		
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So action required now to mandate things we must do to minimise and contain spread?  Might as well get us used to some form of ‘return‘ whilst it’s not critical?


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			All new variants will eventually make it onto our shores, nothing you can do to stop it. Putting the African countries on the red list will buy us a little time for more research to have been done on the variant however, as mentioned, there's probably a fair chance that it's here already.
		
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It is certainly true that it will get her eventually, and probably that it is here already, but reducing the amount that gets here still matters, as well as delaying that as much as possible so a better response can be developed. So I therefore support travel restrictions on this one.


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## DRW (Nov 26, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			We've had Covid in the house for the last 10+ days. Younger boy tested positive on 16th Nov and has come through it with very mild symptoms. I tested positive on 20th Nov and had a couple of rough days with muscle aches but in general have only had mild cold symptoms. Mrs Colch tested positive on 22nd Nov (although almost certainly had it from 20th) and is the worst out of all of us. Main issue seems to be a severe headache. All of the above were positive LFT confirmed with positive PCR. Older boy tested positive on LFT yesterday, 25th Nov, and had the strongest positive result out of all us on the LFT. His PCR test has come back today as negative. Just done another LFT on him and that's also negative. No idea how older boy has managed to escape getting it when the other three of us in the house have all had it.
		
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Hope all goes okay and all recover well.

Its strange isn't it.

On secondary strike rates, your story is not unusual pre or post vaccines, heard plenty of such situations. Heard pre vaccine of a dad dying with it, mum/sister getting it and 'as such fine', but son didnt get(all middle aged or older). Post vaccine someone near us, the son/girlfriend had it, unvaxxed dad didnt get it, nor did vaxxed mum. So many weird cases.

Secondary strike rates are surprisingly low (some indication is given on the variants of concern reports by PHE, if you wish to read them and the tables they produce)


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## road2ruin (Nov 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is certainly true that it will get her eventually, and probably that it is here already, but reducing the amount that gets here still matters, as well as delaying that as much as possible so a better response can be developed. So I therefore support travel restrictions on this one.
		
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I also agree with the travel restrictions, buying time to allow scientists to work out what we are up against is important. All I meant is that whilst it might be difficult I don’t think we should worry too much about variants as there is little we can do to stop them. We just have to hope that they don’t end up being something seriously nasty. I‘m still fairly confident that with a bit of fiddling with the vaccine we should be okay against most things.


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## Ethan (Nov 26, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I also agree with the travel restrictions, buying time to allow scientists to work out what we are up against is important. All I meant is that whilst it might be difficult I don’t think we should worry too much about variants as there is little we can do to stop them. We just have to hope that they don’t end up being something seriously nasty. I‘m still fairly confident that with a bit of fiddling with the vaccine we should be okay against most things.
		
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We are in vaccine v1.0 right now, v1.1 is coming shortly with Pfizer and AZ Delta versions. We need v2.0, multivalent vaccines that can recognise any part of a corona so are not likely to have vaccine escape, or even v3.0, T-cell vaccines which may give a durable immunity, like this, although it has a long way to go, so the plan might be to get by on existing vaccines knowing they run out of puff until some of these next-gen vaccines come along, and then things could change significantly.


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## yandabrown (Nov 26, 2021)

Apparently the new variant is named omicron. What happened to Epsilon etc.?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 26, 2021)

Chances are the new variant is here. What damage it does between now and Christmas remains to be seen but having seen two unvaccinated patients pass today and the devastation of the families, there seems one simple and logical option to all. Get jabbed and give yourself as much protection as you can


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 26, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			Apparently the new variant is named omicron. What happened to Epsilon etc.?
		
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I as thinking similar earlier today about the gamma variant…we seemed to jump from beta to delta…


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## Ethan (Nov 27, 2021)

The Economist editorial on Covid in Europe:

_Over the next few years Covid-19 will probably settle down as a seasonal disease, a lethal threat to the elderly and the poor in health, but to everyone else mostly a nuisance. However, as Europe is discovering, getting there will be perilous. The European Union is recording nearly a quarter of a million cases a day, more than at any time in the pandemic. Eleven months after vaccination first got under way, intensive-care wards in some regions are almost full. The World Health Organisation warned this week that 700,000 more Europeans could die by March.

Amid growing alarm, governments are once again locking down. Austria has become the first rich country to demand that all of its citizens must be vaccinated or face a fine; Germany may follow. Demonstrators are taking to the streets to protest against new restrictions, including in the Netherlands, Belgium and Italy. As the disease spreads, confusion reigns about what measures are justified in the campaign to slow it.

Dealing with the fourth wave begins with understanding what is causing it. Covid is surging in Europe because winter weather sends people indoors, where the virus spreads easily. In the eu slightly over 60% of the population over 12 years old is fully vaccinated. That leaves roughly 150m people unprotected, unless they have already acquired immunity from having survived an infection—as many have in Britain. It is a warning to places like China with large immunologically naive populations.

At the same time, immunity starts to wane from around ten weeks after the second dose. Booster shots are vital, but the EU has been slow to administer them. In Germany infections are doubling every 12 days. One reason is that, even now, only 8% have received a third dose, compared with 23% in Britain.

As so often in the pandemic, governments have been caught out by the exponential growth in cases. Because they are acting late, they must resort to more extreme measures. Protesters say their liberties are being trampled. Many of those who reject vaccination argue that the state has no right to coerce them.

Those arguments are flawed. Two years into the pandemic, it is clear that your behaviour really is your neighbours’ business. One reason is that you are more likely to infect other people if you are unvaccinated. Even if they are protected, some of them will fall gravely ill and die—albeit a small proportion. Also, if the state does nothing, the unjabbed will swamp the health service, causing a lot of deaths, including many that have nothing to do with covid. And more than one liberty is at stake. If governments have to resort to lockdowns to slow the spread of the disease, anti-vaxxers are depriving the vaccinated of freedom.

What makes government intervention hard is not the question of principle, but the practical business of being effective and proportionate: of knowing what works at what cost and how this varies from one country to the next. The aim is not to eradicate covid—that would be impossible—but to slow its spread so that cases are manageable. Flattening the curve in this way saves lives by protecting health systems and buying time to administer vaccines and procure powerful new anti-Covid medicines, such as molnupiravir.

The easy steps are promoting handwashing and demanding mask-wearing in public indoor spaces. Both reduce the spread of disease, but neither impinges greatly on anyone’s freedom. Next comes accelerating boosters, which protect individuals and society at large by rapidly restoring the partial ability to block transmission. This should be simple, because vaccine hesitancy should not be a factor with those who have already been jabbed. Countries can also enforce existing measures, such as requiring vaccination or a negative test for access to public places.

That may not be enough to contain the surge in places like Germany and Austria, where most of these measures have been in force even as the disease has spread. In principle there is nothing wrong with demanding universal vaccination. In practice, however, it has enough drawbacks to give governments pause. A two-dose course will take weeks to become fully effective, even if anti-vaxxers comply. Austria is not requiring vaccination until February, when the wave is likely to be abating. In addition, if you believe that vaccination is a conspiracy by the state, compulsion only confirms your suspicions and attracts money and people to anti-vax campaigns. The policy could undermine faith in all vaccines for years to come. When, as in some European countries, government policies have failed, the only emergency brake is the misery of more lockdowns._


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## Reemul (Nov 27, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			So a kind of tricky question and maybe one @Ethan can help with. It's about level of risk. I work in primary schools instructing Bikeability (think Cycling Proficiency in the modern world!). Most contact with riders (years 3 to 6) is outside although breaks are spent in school and the necessary signing in/out etc. There are Covid guidelines in place for us but it can be tricky to avoid contact with ill-fitting cycle helmets plus handling bikes to check their road worthiness.

So today was a group of year 3 in the morning and year 4 in the afternoon. At least one on the register couldn't attend due to testing positive for Covid.

We have to test twice weekly but I'm wondering what my risk is of contracting it (triple jabbed) but most importantly being asymptomatic and passing it on inadvertantly. I have a social event tomorrow evening in a pub and I'm thinking it wisest not to attend...
		
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My wife is 47, higher risk, has 3 scarring holes in her lung from a bout of cavitating pneumonia that almost killed her. Has had the vaccines but no booster yet (Few weeks). She is a school teacher in a primary school (Years 1-6) She has been teaching in Years 2 and 6 this year due to maternity leave. She is also a Key Stage 2 leader, Head of Sen (Special Educational Needs) and a School direct leader (Trains and places students to be teachers). This means she also visits other schools. We were obviously highly stressed when Covid came along. She has not managed to get Covid yet.

Currently out 11 year old son has Covid from school. He tested positive last Sunday, the other 3 of us have not caught it yet and he is asymptomatic.

We have found a middle ground of not overly worrying, still taking some precautions and being careful but not letting it take over our lives.

I can totally understand how you are feeling, we were the same and we will be glad when we get our boosters, mine is on Thursday and Sarah's the 21/12.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Chances are the new variant is here. What damage it does between now and Christmas remains to be seen but having seen two unvaccinated patients pass today and the devastation of the families, there seems one simple and logical option to all. Get jabbed and give yourself as much protection as you can
		
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I had my one month check up with the stoma nurse mid week. She told me my next one would be by video call as they were preparing for the possible winter crisis.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 27, 2021)

Downing Street briefing...can't wait for the day when they really are a thing of the past in relation to Covid.

Damned thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Downing Street briefing...can't wait for the day when they really are a thing of the past in relation to Covid.

Damned thing.
		
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Masks back for shopping indoors? Well that‘s what my Mrs thinks she’s heard…and so just what I guessed.  I do not watch live as I get too irritated by one of the three key individuals.  Apparently Christmas is going to be better than last year…well that’s good to know but frankly a pretty useless pointer as to where we might be.  But I cannot go further with my thoughts.


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## road2ruin (Nov 27, 2021)

What a spot of luck, a new (very transmissible) variant found just as we needed a boost in vaccination numbers.


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## Ethan (Nov 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			What a spot of luck, a new (very transmissible) variant found just as we needed a boost in vaccination numbers.
		
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Would you care to expand on this evolving conspiracy theory?


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## road2ruin (Nov 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Would you care to expand on this evolving conspiracy theory?
		
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Nope, just pointing out the timing is fortunate. 

It also seems to have been ignored by the MSM who are intent on scaremongering that the SA health officials are saying that if anything this variant is milder than Delta.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 27, 2021)

Tightening up of mask wearing in retail and public transport. When pushed I think that was said to be made mandatory again - certainly hope so. I can be even more irked at the muppets in Lidl this week if so!


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## Ethan (Nov 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Nope, just pointing out the timing is fortunate.

It also seems to have been ignored by the MSM who are intent on scaremongering that the SA health officials are saying that if anything this variant is milder than Delta.
		
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Come on, say what you mean. You think the UK is overhyping this in order to push boosters for Christmas, right?

Your post reeks of conspiracy theorist - MSM, as if it is all one homogenous entity in cahoots with Govt; scaremongering - otherwise known as taking sensible precautions. 

The SA authorities don't know enough yet to know.. Also, even if it is milder in effect, if it escapes vaccines due to the nature of the spike protein mutations, or worse still, if to is allowed to spread such that it drives further mutations which could be a lot less mild, it could still be a very big problem.


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## road2ruin (Nov 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Come on, say what you mean. You think the UK is overhyping this in order to push boosters for Christmas, right?

The SA authorities don't know enough yet to know.. Also, even if it is milder in effect, if it escapes vaccines due to the nature of the spike protein mutations, or worse still, if to is allowed to spread such that it drives further mutations which could be a lot less mild, it could still be a very big problem.
		
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I think they will use it as an excuse yes although I don’t blame them, it’s a good opportunity. 

In terms of the new variant, it was found within vaccinated people in SA so doesn’t that suggest that we’re going to continually get these mutations?


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## road2ruin (Nov 27, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Tightening up of mask wearing in retail and public transport. When pushed I think that was said to be made mandatory again - certainly hope so. I can be even more irked at the muppets in Lidl this week if so!
		
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When pushed/asked a direct question he shuffled papers, muttered something inaudible and said the Health Secretary would give further details managing to avoid giving any sensible info himself.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2021)

It’s not a hardship we are being asked - wear a mask in a shop and get the booster 🤷‍♂️ If we can do that hopefully we can avoid any further lockdowns


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## Imurg (Nov 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think they will use it as an excuse yes although I don’t blame them, it’s a good opportunity.

In terms of the new variant, it was found within vaccinated people in SA so doesn’t that suggest that we’re going to continually get these mutations?
		
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Of course we will..continually 
Doesn't mean we shouldn't take precautions until we know what we're dealing with..
What happens if we don't put the shields up and it turns to be a worse strain than all the others and rips through us all....?
Surely you don't want that....


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not a hardship we are being asked - wear a mask in a shop and get the booster 🤷‍♂️ If we can do that hopefully we can avoid any further lockdowns
		
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Spot on LP. We are in Spain at present, masks in shops, restaurants, bars, before seated. Walking around we wear masks most of the time. If in the breakfast room and people are not wearing masks the restaurant staff ask them why.

Simple really


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 27, 2021)

Members who post conspiracy theories are likely to be sanctioned 

Please be aware and post accordingly


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## Ethan (Nov 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think they will use it as an excuse yes although I don’t blame them, it’s a good opportunity.

In terms of the new variant, it was found within vaccinated people in SA so doesn’t that suggest that we’re going to continually get these mutations?
		
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This omicron variant isn’t going to be the last one, obviously. But we already knew that double vaxxed people can get infected. We also know that, in general, they will have a better clinical outcome. We further know that there is a significant community prevalence of HIV in SA, which will affect response to vaccination and represents the ideal breeding ground for new variants.

So you can’t draw broad conclusions based on this. All we can do is respond swiftly to it. In my opinion, we should not have made masks voluntary in shops. Reinstating masks and travel restriction are essential steps.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This omicron variant isn’t going to be the last one, obviously. But we already knew that double vaxxed people can get infected. We also know that, in general, they will have a better clinical outcome. We further know that there is a significant community prevalence of HIV in SA, which will affect response to vaccination and represents the ideal breeding ground for new variants.

So you can’t draw broad conclusions based on this. All we can do is respond swiftly to it. In my opinion, we should not have made masks voluntary in shops. Reinstating masks and travel restriction are essential steps.
		
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Apologies if this has been answered before but what studies are there showing wearing of masks actually rescue transmission ?

I fail to see how the wafer thin paper surgical masks actually stop a virus ?
Is it just a sort of placebo affect where if someone is wearing a mask/ facecovering you tend to distance yourself more from them ?

I'd be interested if there are any links you can point me towards.


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## Hobbit (Nov 27, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Apologies if this has been answered before but what studies are there showing wearing of masks actually rescue transmission ?

I fail to see how the wafer thin paper surgical masks actually stop a virus ?
Is it just a sort of placebo affect where if someone is wearing a mask/ facecovering you tend to distance yourself more from them ?

I'd be interested if there are any links you can point me towards.
		
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Yes there are studies, and yes they’ve been posted up(links) earlier in the thread. Short version; the size of the virus is x and the holes in the mask are smaller - all the detail is in the links that were posted up. They’re not 100% impenetrable but they’re not far off. Think viral load; some might get through but, potentially, not enough to overload you. Same for what’s breathed out.

The surgical masks aren’t great, and don’t last long, but the FFP3 masks are excellent and are readily available.

If you do an “advanced search’ in the thread under what I’ve posted up you’ll find the links.


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Members who post conspiracy theories are likely to be sanctioned 

Please be aware and post accordingly
		
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Genuine question

Why?

I don’t personally believe in this particular story or motive etc however there does seem to be a real trend over the last few years of banning perceived ‘conspiracy theories’

Genuinely.  How do you determine what constitutes the ‘truth’ or what constitutes ‘conspiracy’?

The predominant force between truth and conspiracy is largely based on opinion. 

Every argument for and against will be a legitimate collection of perfectly reasoned arguments, theories, facts, rumours and data. 

Who decides what’s true or not? Or are you basing this on your own personally held opinion? 

Also (and i type this respectfully) what gives you the right to overrule on opposite opinion?  

Worse still, what gives you the right to purge another persons beliefs from existence by deleting posts? 

That’s quite scary in my opinion. 

Surely the responsible approach would be to allow those you believe are making stuff up, to post freely

Then to have others (whose opinions you align too) show why exactly they are taking out of their bottoms, through a reasoned, impassioned and detailed counter argument?

Would that not be more effective?


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Tightening up of mask wearing in retail and public transport. When pushed I think that was said to be made mandatory again - certainly hope so. I can be even more irked at the muppets in Lidl this week if so!
		
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So what if it is; it is roundly ignored down here and is mandatory on TfL services.  No good mandating it if there is no enforcement.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			Genuine question

Why?

I don’t personally believe in this particular story or motive etc however there does seem to be a real trend over the last few years of banning perceived ‘conspiracy theories’

Genuinely.  How do you determine what constitutes the ‘truth’ or what constitutes ‘conspiracy’?

The predominant force between truth and conspiracy is largely based on opinion.

Every argument for and against will be a legitimate collection of perfectly reasoned arguments, theories, facts, rumours and data.

Who decides what’s true or not? Or are you basing this on your own personally held opinion?

Also (and i type this respectfully) what gives you the right to overrule on opposite opinion? 

Worse still, what gives you the right to purge another persons beliefs from existence by deleting posts?

That’s quite scary in my opinion.

Surely the responsible approach would be to allow those you believe are making stuff up, to post freely

Then to have others (whose opinions you align too) show why exactly they are taking out of their bottoms, through a reasoned, impassioned and detailed counter argument?

Would that not be more effective?
		
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I'd suggest to protect the brand & reputation.  There are plenty of places on the net for the tin foil hat brigade to post their theories, allowing them to post here may be deemed at tarnishing the brand or unduly influencing opinion on what is a very serious matter.  

Basically it's GM's football so it's their rules.  

Not saying it's right or wrong, just suggesting that's possibly the reason.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			That’s quite scary in my opinion.
		
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What scares you?


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## RichA (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			Worse still, what gives you the right to purge another persons beliefs from existence by deleting posts?

That’s quite scary in my opinion.
		
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You realise that this is just an internet forum hosted by the website of a golf magazine?
I don't think the moderators are capable of purging your beliefs from existence - just from their internet forum, hosted by the website of a golf magazine.


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			What scares you?
		
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The censorship of differing opinions.


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			You realise that this is just an internet forum hosted by the website of a golf magazine?
I don't think the moderators are capable of purging your beliefs from existence - just from their internet forum, hosted by the website of a golf magazine.
		
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I made it clear that these are not my beliefs.


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## Voyager EMH (Nov 28, 2021)

Virus is transmitted by one person breathing in the exhaled air of an infected person. The infected person most likely does not know that they are infected.
For this reason I have not ceased in the wearing of a mask in shops all this year.
The government rules and restrictions have changed. Some people's behaviour has changed.
The virus hasn't changed its rules or behaviour, as far as I know.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			The censorship of differing opinions.
		
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I think there's a big difference between stating an opinion and promoting a conspiracy theory.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think there's a big difference between stating an opinion and promoting a conspiracy theory.
		
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This rule didn't appear to apply to the Brexit threads.....😅😅


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			This rule didn't appear to apply to the Brexit threads.....😅😅
		
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Brexit hasn't killed over 5.2 million people


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## need_my_wedge (Nov 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			All new variants will eventually make it onto our shores, nothing you can do to stop it. Putting the African countries on the red list will buy us a little time for more research to have been done on the variant however, as mentioned, there's probably a fair chance that it's here already.
		
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Apparently it is, two cases already confirmed. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-59445124


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I think there's a big difference between stating an opinion and promoting a conspiracy theory.
		
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I’m not sure. 

They are both just opinions based on a both persons knowledge of a subject, plus a healthy dose of bias (on both sides). 

Also. There are differing degrees of this stuff. 

Those who think covid is spread via 5g / vaccinations have chips in / the lizard people did it!

Is a looooong way away from stating the government may use this new (and very real) variant as a way to increase vaccinations levels through some good old fashioned scare mongering.  

Vaccinations are the way out of this so  if they did seek to gain some opportunity from this new crisis, is that really the same as believing the earth is flat?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			Genuine question

Why?

I don’t personally believe in this particular story or motive etc however there does seem to be a real trend over the last few years of banning perceived ‘conspiracy theories’

Genuinely.  How do you determine what constitutes the ‘truth’ or what constitutes ‘conspiracy’?

The predominant force between truth and conspiracy is largely based on opinion.

Every argument for and against will be a legitimate collection of perfectly reasoned arguments, theories, facts, rumours and data.

Who decides what’s true or not? Or are you basing this on your own personally held opinion?

Also (and i type this respectfully) what gives you the right to overrule on opposite opinion? 

Worse still, what gives you the right to purge another persons beliefs from existence by deleting posts?

That’s quite scary in my opinion.

Surely the responsible approach would be to allow those you believe are making stuff up, to post freely

Then to have others (whose opinions you align too) show why exactly they are taking out of their bottoms, through a reasoned, impassioned and detailed counter argument?

Would that not be more effective?
		
Click to expand...

As others have said, GM have a corporate image to protect,  it is nothing to do with my personal views.

We are a golf forum, first and foremost,

Conspiracy theories can spread false information, which some people will read and believe.


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			I’m not sure.

They are both just opinions based on a both persons knowledge of a subject, plus a healthy dose of bias (on both sides).
		
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Opinion...
_''a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.''_

Conspiracy theory...
_''a theory that rejects the standard explanation for an event and instead credits a covert group or organization with carrying out a secret plot''_


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			As others have said, GM have a corporate image to protect,  it is nothing to do with my personal views.

We are a golf forum, first and foremost,

Conspiracy theories can spread false information, which some people will read and believe.
		
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Which is all fair enough. I’m just playing devils advocate and trying To be reasoned. 

I’d hate to see any debate destroyed if even a hint of descent is detected

And now 

I’m out 👍🏻


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Opinion...
_''a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.''_

Conspiracy theory...
_''a theory that rejects the standard explanation for an event and instead credits a covert group or organization with carrying out a secret plot''_

Click to expand...

Well googled…

There is literally no difference between the above except for motive. 

Strip motive away away and it’s still just opinions.

Which is what I’ve said all along. 

Anyway. 

I’m done.


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## Ethan (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			I’m not sure.

They are both just opinions based on a both persons knowledge of a subject, plus a healthy dose of bias (on both sides).

Also. There are differing degrees of this stuff.

Those who think covid is spread via 5g / vaccinations have chips in / the lizard people did it!

Is a looooong way away from stating the government may use this new (and very real) variant as a way to increase vaccinations levels through some good old fashioned scare mongering. 

Vaccinations are the way out of this so  if they did seek to gain some opportunity from this new crisis, is that really the same as believing the earth is flat?
		
Click to expand...

You fundamentally misunderstand, or mischaracterise, what a conspiracy theory is. It is not a healthy dose of scepticism, as I think you mean. Nor is it an equal balance to the scientific view. Nor indeed is the scientific view simply an "opinion". 

Conspiracy theories almost almost have a reason behind them, political opposition or partisan self-interest, and they recruit those who are easily riled, and/or simply don't understand, or really care about, the issues. More importantly, they do a lot of harm. Don't be that guy.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 28, 2021)

RichA said:



			You realise that this is just an internet forum hosted by the website of a golf magazine?
I don't think the moderators are capable of purging your beliefs from existence - just from their internet forum, hosted by the website of a golf magazine.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's like allowing any view to be aired by standing on a soapbox in public, but not allowing it to be done in my house.
Much as I admire Voltaire, the damage done by loonies on social media far outweighs the benefits of where we would be if social media didn't exist.
It's an opinion I have reluctantly had to accept.😀


----------



## Ethan (Nov 28, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Apologies if this has been answered before but what studies are there showing wearing of masks actually rescue transmission ?

I fail to see how the wafer thin paper surgical masks actually stop a virus ?
Is it just a sort of placebo affect where if someone is wearing a mask/ facecovering you tend to distance yourself more from them ?

I'd be interested if there are any links you can point me towards.
		
Click to expand...

This has been asked, and answered, before. Plenty available from reputable organisations and sources on line.

I don't get the opposition to masks. It is a zero risk intervention, and you are being asked by owners of shops and other buildings to wear one. Why would you not, at least as an act of common courtesy, do so? I just don't get it.

In terms of the broader question of evidence, there are usually various levels of evidence available, and these combine to inform a judgment.

The first thing is that randomised controlled trials are not necessarily needed if something stands to reason. There is no RCT that falling out of an airplane with a parachute offers better outcomes than falling out without one. But it kinda stands to reason. It also stands to reason that covering your nose and mouth might change the nature of what you breathe out. Some masks are better than others, clearly, but as part of a multi-layer strategy with vaccination, social distancing and ventilation, it seems reasonable they might have an effect. You may believe they don't do much, but what's the harm?

It is also worth noting that countries with established mask practices, for example in Asia, have much lower rates of infection, despite high occupancy multi-generational household. 

Finally, there is a behavioural aspect. Masks provide a visible warning to practice caution. Not everybody responds to that, but some do, and a little bit of each of a range of strategies add up.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 28, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Apologies if this has been answered before but what studies are there showing wearing of masks actually rescue transmission ?

I fail to see how the wafer thin paper surgical masks actually stop a virus ?
Is it just a sort of placebo affect where if someone is wearing a mask/ facecovering you tend to distance yourself more from them ?

I'd be interested if there are any links you can point me towards.
		
Click to expand...

Just google ....PM 2.5 filter.....


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## bobmac (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			There is literally no difference between the above except for motive.

I’m done.
		
Click to expand...

So you say ''there is literally no difference between the above'' and you follow that with the difference  
I think I'm done too


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So you say ''there is literally no difference between the above'' and you follow that with the difference  
I think I'm done too 

Click to expand...

😂

And now You are trying to play the man and not Play the argument. 

Laters alligator. 👋


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## SocketRocket (Nov 28, 2021)

Would that be 'Done'. or 'Done done'


----------



## Fade and Die (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			I’m not sure.

They are both just opinions based on a both persons knowledge of a subject, plus a healthy dose of bias (on both sides).

Also. There are differing degrees of this stuff.

Those who think covid is spread via 5g / vaccinations have chips in / the lizard people did it!

Is a looooong way away from stating the government may use this new (and very real) variant as a way to increase vaccinations levels through some good old fashioned scare mongering. 

Vaccinations are the way out of this so  if they did seek to gain some opportunity from this new crisis, is that really the same as *believing the earth is flat*?
		
Click to expand...

Well the surface of the Earth is 75% water and it’s uncarbonated so you could say that the Earth is flat. 😉


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Well the surface of the Earth is 75% water and it’s uncarbonated so you could say that the Earth is flat. 😉
		
Click to expand...

Different story when I’m in the bath though..

😉


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## SaintHacker (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			😂

And now You are trying to play the man and not Play the argument.

Laters alligator. 👋
		
Click to expand...

Thats 3 times, are you going or not?


----------



## Voyager EMH (Nov 28, 2021)

tugglesf239 said:



			Different story when I’m in the bath though..

😉
		
Click to expand...

Wind and P?


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 28, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Thats 3 times, are you going or not?
		
Click to expand...

Cheers dits 👍🏻


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## DRW (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			snipe

The first thing is that randomised controlled trials are not necessarily needed if something stands to reason. There is no RCT that falling out of an airplane with a parachute offers better outcomes than falling out without one. But it kinda stands to reason. It also stands to reason that covering your nose and mouth might change the nature of what you breathe out. Snipe
		
Click to expand...

Let's compare the Bangladesh RCT of masking to the  parachute. Look at that 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 two things that could never have been tested in RCT!


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## spongebob59 (Nov 29, 2021)

They mentioned this study on the radio but I can't find a link for it.


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## DRW (Nov 29, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			They mentioned this study on the radio but I can't find a link for it.
		
Click to expand...

I don't wish to enter the discussion this time over masks, so not posting up links, its not a great subject to discuss over the internet due to the polar opposite of opinions over them. To compare masks to parachutes I just thought was a bit extreme, so posted the above as a bit of light humour.

Google or twitter is your friend, and there are plenty of links to the papers or commentary on the RCT (and other mask studies in lab and real world)

I'm happy to go with the flow on masks and I wear a N99.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 29, 2021)

👍.
My background is pharmaceutical science so I'm just interested in the data, geeky I know ☺️


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## harpo_72 (Nov 29, 2021)

Pretty sure that if a tax was raised on the anti vaxxers it would/ could be argued as justifiable as the tax on cigarettes and alcohol.. simple monitoring via medical records.. take the tax and then let them claim it back if they have a valid reason.

Probably set you all off now .. I will get my coat.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 29, 2021)

Out of interest, has anyone on here not had the covid vaccine?


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

DRW said:



			Let's compare the Bangladesh RCT of masking to the  parachute. Look at that 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 two things that could never have been tested in RCT!

View attachment 39711




Click to expand...

Sorry, is there a scientific point there? 

The point I was making is that scientific evidence occurs on different dimensions, which can be pieced together to form a policy decision. I don't know the details of this "study" which you refer to, but any sensible interpretation would need more than one small graphic. It would also need to be interpreted in the context of other studies which aggregate, sometime in meta analyses, to inform a more reliable opinion. 

The other, pragmatic, approach is to estimate what the benefit risk is. The only risk of masks is bruising of your libertarian expectation to do whatever the F you want whether it hurts anybody else or not. Any reasonable person would conclude that there may, at least, be a benefit to wearing a mask as part of a package of measures, so what's the harm.


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## GB72 (Nov 29, 2021)

Last week was the first time i had sat at a table with someone who had recently had covid. Don't get me wrong, he had done his full isolation, had a clear PCR test and did a LF test before coming out but it just felt odd. Made me feel quote nervous and on edge.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 29, 2021)

The whole mask thing is completely jumbled ( I'm not against masks and wear one when I feel appropriate) however there's enough doubt in my mind as to their effectiveness.
I'd love to see the data th government are using to justify their decisions.

Where will you have to wear a mask?

Train ✅ 
Bus ✅ 
Shop ✅ 
Supermarket ✅ 
Bank ✅ 
Post Office ✅ 

Theatre ❌
Cinema ❌
Pub ❌
Restaurant ❌
Nightclub ❌
Concert ❌
Office ❌

(From Tuesday. Based on current understanding of the Gov rule change - not yet published)


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## DRW (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Sorry, is there a scientific point there?

The point I was making is that scientific evidence occurs on different dimensions, which can be pieced together to form a policy decision. I don't know the details of this "study" which you refer to, but any sensible interpretation would need more than one small graphic. It would also need to be interpreted in the context of other studies which aggregate, sometime in meta analyses, to inform a more reliable opinion.

The other, pragmatic, approach is to estimate what the benefit risk is. The only risk of masks is bruising of your libertarian expectation to do whatever the F you want whether it hurts anybody else or not. Any reasonable person would conclude that there may, at least, be a benefit to wearing a mask as part of a package of measures, so what's the harm.
		
Click to expand...

Why not go and look at the study, you are a man of science.

Groundhog day rant at the end.

Finished your rant ?


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## DanFST (Nov 29, 2021)

I think that's fair, everyone must use the first group of places. The second group isn't needed in day to day life. If you are terrified of the virus you wouldn't go mask or not. 




spongebob59 said:



			The whole mask thing is completely jumbled ( I'm not against masks and wear one when I feel appropriate) however there's enough doubt in my mind as to their effectiveness.
I'd love to see the data th government are using to justify their decisions.

Where will you have to wear a mask?

Train ✅
Bus ✅
Shop ✅
Supermarket ✅
Bank ✅
Post Office ✅

Theatre ❌
Cinema ❌
Pub ❌
Restaurant ❌
Nightclub ❌
Concert ❌
Office ❌

(From Tuesday. Based on current understanding of the Gov rule change - not yet published)
		
Click to expand...


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## spongebob59 (Nov 29, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I think that's fair, everyone must use the first group of places. The second group isn't needed in day to day life. If you are terrified of the virus you wouldn't go mask or not.
		
Click to expand...

Unless you work in an office


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## DRW (Nov 29, 2021)

Michael Mina on Twitter: "Monitoring wastewater for viral load estimates outbreak size In just a few weeks, in Pretoria S. Africa (north of Johannesburg) viral load detected in wastewater has reached similar levels as the peak of Delta This at least indicates that transmission may be remarkably swift https://t.co/TxR7DxsOuA" / Twitter 

Lets hope this doesn't continue and doesn't reflect in hospitalisations espeically as SA has a high level of protection of infection/less so with vaccines. 

Worrying times again  

Going to be probably 2 weeks before we know for certain, how it all stands.


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

DRW said:



			Why not go and look at the study, you are a man of science.

Groundhog day rant at the end.

Finished your rant ?
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't actually referring to you, but you seem to recognise yourself. And you are the one who is getting personal. If that is how you want to play it ...

Send me a reference. I will review it if it is published in a reputable journal, seeing as how I am a man of science and all. 

Alternatively, just put on the flipping mask and act like a responsible person who is willing to show respect for others.


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## Rooter (Nov 29, 2021)

Urgh, I have a massive dilema.

Supposed to be going to Milan tomorrow for work until Friday.

Daughter #1 at home ill. Chest infection symptoms, negative PCR but doctor says, if symptoms still about on Wed to get another PCR.
Daughter #2 was on a school residential trip last week, 8 kids and 2 teachers now postive.
New Arrival rules mean I need a negative PCR before I can come out of isolation. I cant find anyone doing quick turnaround results, I have an expensive personal commitment on Friday night.

I really don't want to go.


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Urgh, I have a massive dilema.

Supposed to be going to Milan tomorrow for work until Friday.

Daughter #1 at home ill. Chest infection symptoms, negative PCR but doctor says, if symptoms still about on Wed to get another PCR.
Daughter #2 was on a school residential trip last week, 8 kids and 2 teachers now postive.
New Arrival rules mean I need a negative PCR before I can come out of isolation. I cant find anyone doing quick turnaround results, I have an expensive personal commitment on Friday night.

I really don't want to go.
		
Click to expand...

Ask the company to send someone else because of the reasons you’ve given.


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## DanFST (Nov 29, 2021)

Colleague is coming back from Tenerife tomorrow. Had ordered his lateral flow to do when home.

Can he make an appointment to use an NHS test centre for a PCR on the way home? Then he'll have the results for our big work event on Thursday. Or is it a case of ordering a test when back, waiting for it to arrive, then send it off and wait for results?


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

Rooter said:



			Urgh, I have a massive dilema.

Supposed to be going to Milan tomorrow for work until Friday.

Daughter #1 at home ill. Chest infection symptoms, negative PCR but doctor says, if symptoms still about on Wed to get another PCR.
Daughter #2 was on a school residential trip last week, 8 kids and 2 teachers now postive.
New Arrival rules mean I need a negative PCR before I can come out of isolation. I cant find anyone doing quick turnaround results, I have an expensive personal commitment on Friday night.

I really don't want to go.
		
Click to expand...

You are a contact of someone from a high-rise group (school) with symptoms. You shouldn't travel, not just because of your Fri night commitment (nice restaurant?) but because you could inadvertently be getting into the export business.


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Colleague is coming back from Tenerife tomorrow. Had ordered his lateral flow to do when home.

Can he make an appointment to use an NHS test centre for a PCR on the way home? Then he'll have the results for our big work event on Thursday. Or is it a case of ordering a test when back, waiting for it to arrive, then send it off and wait for results?
		
Click to expand...

PCRs for travel are supposed to be private and paid for, but if he was a contact or had symptoms, that would over-ride, in my opinion.


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## Rooter (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are a contact of someone from a high-rise group (school) with symptoms. You shouldn't travel, not just because of your Fri night commitment (nice restaurant?) but because you could inadvertently be getting into the export business.
		
Click to expand...

And I am a high-risk person myself! I was a shielder with an immune system disease. I am convinced I am not going


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## yandabrown (Nov 29, 2021)

I've been looking at FFP3 masks as we intend to fly in the New Year. Some of them have Exhilation valves, my assumption is that the exhaled air goes out of that more easily than the mask material. Does that not somewhat defeat the object? I thought that we wore masks to protect others as much as to protect ourselves? If i'm to wear one for a while I'd like a comfortable one but not if it renders it useless. I guess these are OK in an environment where everyone has one (hospital wards for example) but perhaps not so on a plane?


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## Rooter (Nov 29, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Colleague is coming back from Tenerife tomorrow. Had ordered his lateral flow to do when home.

Can he make an appointment to use an NHS test centre for a PCR on the way home? Then he'll have the results for our big work event on Thursday. Or is it a case of ordering a test when back, waiting for it to arrive, then send it off and wait for results?
		
Click to expand...

If he lands tuesday he will be fine, he needs to book a PCR for Tuesday. (A private one) you will need a reference either from or for your passenger locator form, so you cant (I think) just turn up at your local testing facility as this wouldn't link back to your travels if that makes sense,,,


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## Rooter (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			just because of your Fri night commitment (nice restaurant?)
		
Click to expand...

Wife's work xmas do, dinner, hotel etc! lol


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## DRW (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wasn't actually referring to you, but you seem to recognise yourself. And you are the one who is getting personal. If that is how you want to play it ...

Send me a reference. I will review it if it is published in a reputable journal, seeing as how I am a man of science and all.

Alternatively, just put on the flipping mask and act like a responsible person who is willing to show respect for others.
		
Click to expand...


Finished assuming and ranting yet ?


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2021)

Got my booster and flu jab on Saturday. They made a big deal of the fact it was a different type to the original vax. We had The Oxford AZ for the main one and Pfizer for the booster, made to wait in the docs for 15 mins after to make sure there were no side effects


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## DRW (Nov 29, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			I've been looking at FFP3 masks as we intend to fly in the New Year. Some of them have Exhilation valves, my assumption is that the exhaled air goes out of that more easily than the mask material. Does that not somewhat defeat the object? I thought that we wore masks to protect others as much as to protect ourselves? If i'm to wear one for a while I'd like a comfortable one but not if it renders it useless. I guess these are OK in an environment where everyone has one (hospital wards for example) but perhaps not so on a plane?
		
Click to expand...

I would never buy a no valve one for me.

Personally I want a mask to filter what I breath in and what I breath out, so what someone else then breaths.

I buy these(they are okay for non super fit masks) :-

Handanhy FFP3 Face Masks - Box of 20 (medisave.co.uk)


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## spongebob59 (Nov 29, 2021)

One of the articles they were discussing on the radio :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8395971/

They mention the banglaesh study but I can't find a recent link but it contradicts the above

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html


This hole grey area should have been shut down by mandating the use of masks over the winter period but I'm guessing goverment didn't want to implement it.
Hearing there's an update at 3pm  so we'll see they have to say.

Not a good look in the press when the vaccine minister attends the teaching awards and not a mask in sight.


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

DRW said:



			Finished assuming and ranting yet ?

Click to expand...

If you think that is a rant ....

I see you have not finished avoiding the question, though, which says much about the quality of your arguments. Post a link to the article if you are serious about it.


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## Imurg (Nov 29, 2021)

Not good news i would suggest.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465240129216331779


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## Foxholer (Nov 29, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			The whole mask thing is completely jumbled ( I'm not against masks and wear one when I feel appropriate) however there's enough doubt in my mind as to their effectiveness.
I'd love to see the data th government are using to justify their decisions.

Where will you have to wear a mask?

Train ✅
Bus ✅
Shop ✅
Supermarket ✅
Bank ✅
Post Office ✅

Theatre ❌
Cinema ❌
Pub ❌
Restaurant ❌
Nightclub ❌
Concert ❌
Office ❌

(From Tuesday. Based on current understanding of the Gov rule change - not yet published)
		
Click to expand...

Seems to me that - notably apart from 'Office' - the 'masks optional' venues are all 'by choice' ones that depend on 'customers' for their livelihoods/commercial existence, whereas the 'masks compulsory' ones are venues where rules can be imposed without fear of significant 'commercial' consequences.
And, 'Offices' will almost certainly have their own rules - hopefully tightened up somewhat because of the new threat.
Personally, I wouldn't go to ANY of the above venues without wearing a mask (where 'practical')!


----------



## GB72 (Nov 29, 2021)

If they are brought  them in (and I suspect they may have to) I wonder how the fine detail of vaccine passports would work.  I become entitled to get my booster from 9th December but the most covenient appointment I could get was for 19th and so I am booked in. Since the outbreak of the new strain, I have tried to move it to an earlier date but nothing showing as available. Does that mean I cannot use a vaccine passport between 9th and 19th as I am entitled to a booster but have not had it yet or will there be a grace period/


----------



## GB72 (Nov 29, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me that - notably apart from 'Office' - the 'masks optional' venues are all 'by choice' ones that depend on 'customers' for their livelihoods/commercial existence, whereas the 'masks compulsory' ones are venues where rules can be imposed without fear of significant 'commercial' consequences.
And, 'Offices' will almost certainly have their own rules - hopefully tightened up somewhat because of the new threat.
Personally, I wouldn't go to ANY of the above venues without wearing a mask (where 'practical')!
		
Click to expand...

At least we never stopped wearing masks at work in communal areas. I do not have to wear one in my office but need to wear one everywhere else in the building.


----------



## road2ruin (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wasn't actually referring to you, but you seem to recognise yourself. And you are the one who is getting personal. If that is how you want to play it ...

Send me a reference. I will review it if it is published in a reputable journal, seeing as how I am a man of science and all.

Alternatively, just put on the flipping mask and act like a responsible person who is willing to show respect for others.
		
Click to expand...

This isn't meant to antagonise however a genuine question. Aren't mask studies a little redundant as we have real life figures that show that they do little to stop the spread, don't we just look at the countries that have had strict mask mandates and see how their figures are going through the roof to prove that? I agree with your earlier comment that masks are an easy option, they take no effort to do and they give the impression that more restrictions are being put in place. The restrictions that really do stop the spread are limiting contact and WFH however both of those have economical impacts therefore the powers that be are more reticent to go back down that path.


----------



## Foxholer (Nov 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			At least we never stopped wearing masks at work in communal areas. I do not have to wear one in my office but need to wear one everywhere else in the building.
		
Click to expand...

Understandable, though not particularly effective imo.
Do you have colleagues come into your office/go into offices of colleague(s)?
Either of the above turns the office into a 'communal' area with (potentially) virus contamination!


----------



## GB72 (Nov 29, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Understandable, though not particularly effective imo.
Do you have colleagues come into your office/go into offices of colleague(s)?
Either of the above turns the office into a 'communal' area with (potentially) virus contamination!
		
Click to expand...

Masks on for both parties if you go into someone elses office.


----------



## DRW (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If you think that is a rant ....

I see you have not finished avoiding the question, though, which says much about the quality of your arguments. Post a link to the article if you are serious about it.
		
Click to expand...

Nope not stopped yet I see.....


----------



## Crazyface (Nov 29, 2021)

DRW said:



Michael Mina on Twitter: "Monitoring wastewater for viral load estimates outbreak size In just a few weeks, in Pretoria S. Africa (north of Johannesburg) viral load detected in wastewater has reached similar levels as the peak of Delta This at least indicates that transmission may be remarkably swift https://t.co/TxR7DxsOuA" / Twitter

Lets hope this doesn't continue and doesn't reflect in hospitalisations espeically as SA has a high level of protection of infection/less so with vaccines.

Worrying times again 

Going to be probably 2 weeks before we know for certain, how it all stands.
		
Click to expand...

I saw someone on TV last night saying they had not noticed anything really bad on the effects of this new variant. No worries from me then, just fed up I'm now expected to wear a mask again at work. I'm going to claim a medical  reason not to and see how that pans out.


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## Foxholer (Nov 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Masks on for both parties if you go into someone elses office.
		
Click to expand...

Still a bit of copout compromise imo, but understandable.


----------



## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This isn't meant to antagonise however a genuine question. Aren't mask studies a little redundant as we have real life figures that show that they do little to stop the spread, don't we just look at the countries that have had strict mask mandates and see how their figures are going through the roof to prove that? I agree with your earlier comment that masks are an easy option, they take no effort to do and they give the impression that more restrictions are being put in place. The restrictions that really do stop the spread are limiting contact and WFH however both of those have economical impacts therefore the powers that be are more reticent to go back down that path.
		
Click to expand...

Do we have real world evidence to show that? SE Asian countries which have high use of masks have had more cases lately but are still well behind the UK and Western Europe.


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## Foxholer (Nov 29, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I saw someone on TV last night saying they had not noticed anything really bad on the effects of this new variant. No worries from me then, just fed up I'm now expected to wear a mask again at work. I'm going to claim a medical  reason not to and see how that pans out.
		
Click to expand...

Irresponsible imo! Both to youself/family and to work colleagues


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## GB72 (Nov 29, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Still a bit of copout compromise imo, but understandable.
		
Click to expand...

How else would you do it, not got the necessary secure, locked fireproof cabinets at home to be able to work there, cannot shut the business down until this is over, cannot keep people locked in their offces due to needing copiers, bathrooms, kitchen etc. How else would you do it that would not, to your mind, be a copout compromise. Having people in rooms on their own for most of the day and imposing covid protective measures in areas where people do share facilities seems anything but a copout to me.


----------



## funkycoldmedina (Nov 29, 2021)

Tested positive today for the first time. I was at a conference last week, ironically with many delegates from the vaccine taskforce. Everyone had to have a neg LFT before attending. Of course it could have been there but the place I felt most vulnerable was on the rail network in England. 
Had to wear masks on the Scotland and Wales legs of the journey but England was a free for all.


----------



## road2ruin (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Do we have real world evidence to show that? SE Asian countries which have high use of masks have had more cases lately but are still well behind the UK and Western Europe.
		
Click to expand...

I was mainly thinking about Europe, they've had the mask mandate throughout the whole of this, along with Scotland/Wales and their numbers don't appear to have been drastically reduced by mask wearing.


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## Foxholer (Nov 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			How else would you do it, not got the necessary secure, locked fireproof cabinets at home to be able to work there, cannot shut the business down until this is over, cannot keep people locked in their offces due to needing copiers, bathrooms, kitchen etc. How else would you do it that would not, to your mind, be a copout compromise. Having people in rooms on their own for most of the day and imposing covid protective measures in areas where people do share facilities seems anything but a copout to me.
		
Click to expand...

Applying 'wear mask everywhere' would be 'better' imo. '_Bit of a_ copout' only applied to the 'single person in own office' situation.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 29, 2021)

Killing the 5 minutes wait after the Moderna booster.  😁👍


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Irresponsible imo! Both to youself/family and to work colleagues
		
Click to expand...

Foxy old mathe, you know he only posts for effect. He will be wearing a mask.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Nov 29, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Killing the 5 minutes wait after the Moderna booster.  😁👍
		
Click to expand...

It was 15 for me on Saturday, strongly policed as well. Be grateful it was only 5 minutes. I hope your arm fairs better than mine. Very painful after effects. No other side effects but my arm took it badly.


----------



## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2021)

GB72 said:



			If they are brought  them in (and I suspect they may have to) I wonder how the fine detail of vaccine passports would work.  I become entitled to get my booster from 9th December but the most covenient appointment I could get was for 19th and so I am booked in. Since the outbreak of the new strain, I have tried to move it to an earlier date but nothing showing as available. Does that mean I cannot use a vaccine passport between 9th and 19th as I am entitled to a booster but have not had it yet or will there be a grace period/
		
Click to expand...

Keep trying, if it’s anywhere like HID is volunteering, more and more appointments appear every day. The guy running the centre has also told all volunteers to cancel appointments for themselves and family and to just rock up if your in the time frame to enable more slots to free up.


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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2021)

Valencia region gets approval from the Spanish Supreme Court for Covid passports. Start date is 3rd December, and will run for 1 month. Depending on numbers I’d expect this to extended to after the 3 Kings fiesta on the 6th Jan. other regions are expected to follow.

Passports required for any public venue, inc bars and restaurants, that hold more than 50 people.


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I was mainly thinking about Europe, they've had the mask mandate throughout the whole of this, along with Scotland/Wales and their numbers don't appear to have been drastically reduced by mask wearing.
		
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Problem is there are a lot of moving parts, schools in and out, summer changing to autumn, vaccinations rates rising in young, but immunity waning in older. Real world data is quite hard to interpret, so for me the combination of good studies showing a filtering effect on target size particles, the behavioural aspects conferred by mask-wearing of reminding people of the need for hygiene measures, the fact that it is a no-harm intervention and to a degree the fact that SE Asian countries like Vietnam and S. Korea have much better adherence and over-all much better results than we do. 

I am now out of the mask debate!


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## GB72 (Nov 29, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Keep trying, if it’s anywhere like HID is volunteering, more and more appointments appear every day. The guy running the centre has also told all volunteers to cancel appointments for themselves and family and to just rock up if your in the time frame to enable more slots to free up.
		
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Will keep my eye out. Hoping that if they announce that boosters are being done after less than 6 months, it may open some slots up over the next week or so that I could aim for.


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## spongebob59 (Nov 29, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It was 15 for me on Saturday, strongly policed as well. Be grateful it was only 5 minutes. I hope your arm fairs better than mine. Very painful after effects. No other side effects but my arm took it badly.
		
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My arm ached a few days after, paracetamol took the edge off it and all good now


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 29, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			My arm ached a few days after, paracetamol took the edge off it and all good now
		
Click to expand...

If it is the worst that happens then life can't be too bad can it? Saturday night was bad, couldn't sleep well as I kept rolling onto my arm and it woke me each time. Yesterday was not a good day, couldn't raise my arm and it felt like a torn muscle. Today it is painful but easing so I am getting there. I'm taking paracetamol but it is only taking the edge off. Another day or so and I will be okay. 1st world problem, I'm happy to have had it


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## AmandaJR (Nov 29, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If it is the worst that happens then life can't be too bad can it? Saturday night was bad, couldn't sleep well as I kept rolling onto my arm and it woke me each time. Yesterday was not a good day, couldn't raise my arm and it felt like a torn muscle. Today it is painful but easing so I am getting there. I'm taking paracetamol but it is only taking the edge off. Another day or so and I will be okay. 1st world problem, I'm happy to have had it 

Click to expand...

I was much the same. Two painful days and then eased so I could move it normally but sore to touch for a few days more. Also had a temperature and felt rough for 24 hours...worth it for sure!


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 29, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			The whole mask thing is completely jumbled ( I'm not against masks and wear one when I feel appropriate) however there's enough doubt in my mind as to their effectiveness.
I'd love to see the data th government are using to justify their decisions.

Where will you have to wear a mask?

Train ✅ 
Bus ✅ 
Shop ✅ 
Supermarket ✅ 
Bank ✅ 
Post Office ✅ 

Theatre ❌
Cinema ❌
Pub ❌
Restaurant ❌
Nightclub ❌
Concert ❌
Office ❌

(From Tuesday. Based on current understanding of the Gov rule change - not yet published)
		
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Important point is that the "Xs" are somewhere you choose to go ( excepting office, which management probably would require you to wear one ), and 
the ticks are places you have to go to sometime or another.!


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This isn't meant to antagonise however a genuine question. Aren't mask studies a little redundant as we have real life figures that show that they do little to stop the spread, don't we just look at the countries that have had strict mask mandates and see how their figures are going through the roof to prove that? I agree with your earlier comment that masks are an easy option, they take no effort to do and they give the impression that more restrictions are being put in place. The restrictions that really do stop the spread are limiting contact and WFH however both of those have economical impacts therefore the powers that be are more reticent to go back down that path.
		
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I thought early on that masks were useless in small, indoor non ventilated venues, but I have changed my mind on the basis of "PM2.5 filter". information. Masks to this standard stop the virus particle, from the info is accurate.
If it is accurate, the argument for wearing one is simply.
Do you want to protect yourself and others?
Or
Do you not give a damn for yourself or anybody else!


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## Robster59 (Nov 29, 2021)

I must admit, I am curious how many people on here in England have continued to wear masks.  If my experience of what I have seen when I have travelled south of the border, I would have to say virtually none.  Whether it is service stations, restaurant, shops, hotels, or other public places, virtually nobody is wearing a mask in an indoor public place.  It really is a shock to the system after seeing how most (not all, I admit) will wear their mask indoors up here in Scotland.  There are certain demographics I have noticed are less likely to wear the mask, but I won't discuss that on here to prevent arguments. 
I continued to wear mine when in England out of consideration for myself, others and just sheer common sense.  But I can imagine it's almost a subconscious peer pressure that stops people wearing masks.


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2021)

On masks, pleasantly suprised how many wearing them on the underground last weekend in London, must have been tourists.
Time for boosters being reduced to 3 months - source BBC news.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I must admit, I am curious how many people on here in England have continued to wear masks.  If my experience of what I have seen when I have travelled south of the border, I would have to say virtually none.  Whether it is service stations, restaurant, shops, hotels, or other public places, virtually nobody is wearing a mask in an indoor public place.  It really is a shock to the system after seeing how most (not all, I admit) will wear their mask indoors up here in Scotland.  There are certain demographics I have noticed are less likely to wear the mask, but I won't discuss that on here to prevent arguments.
I continued to wear mine when in England out of consideration for myself, others and just sheer common sense.  But I can imagine it's almost a subconscious peer pressure that stops people wearing masks.
		
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Not the case in my part of England - Surrey/Hants borders.  Id say at least 50% mask wearing indoors - 75% in certain supermarkets.  Less so outdoors but still a fair % continuing to wear a mask.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 29, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I saw someone on TV last night saying they had not noticed anything really bad on the effects of this new variant. No worries from me then, just fed up I'm now expected to wear a mask again at work. I'm going to claim a medical  reason not to and see how that pans out.
		
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I have simple thinking.  The virus is transmitted on air droplets? So on the exhaled breath of someone infected? Walking into town today along quiet road I was not wearing a mask and in the very chilly air I could see clearly how far my cloud of exhaled breath was travelling ahead of me (quite a bit -  I’m guessing over 1m). As I got into town there were more folk about and so I put on a mask…and no longer could I see my exhaled breaths.

I also noticed that it looked like more folk were practicing social distancing.  Stopping and standing aside where pavements narrowed; or walking into the road if safe to do so; and in queue in supermarket back to standing on the 2m marks on the floor.

Also heard comment on illness in SA due to this variant not appearing to be too serious - observation made was to be wary of drawing conclusions from SA as the population is very much younger than UK/Europe, and we know ourselves that younger folk are less seriously impacted.  As only 20% of SA pop is double vaccinated a lot of those picking up the new virus are likely to be younger.


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## DanFST (Nov 29, 2021)

Obviously from last month and earlier, but the Scots policy of wearing masks everywhere doesn't seem to make too much difference. I'd hazard an uneducated guess that social distancing where possible and proper hygiene has a much greater effect. 




Robster59 said:



			I must admit, I am curious how many people on here in England have continued to wear masks.  If my experience of what I have seen when I have travelled south of the border, I would have to say virtually none.  Whether it is service stations, restaurant, shops, hotels, or other public places, virtually nobody is wearing a mask in an indoor public place.  It really is a shock to the system after seeing how most (not all, I admit) will wear their mask indoors up here in Scotland.  There are certain demographics I have noticed are less likely to wear the mask, but I won't discuss that on here to prevent arguments.
I continued to wear mine when in England out of consideration for myself, others and just sheer common sense.  But I can imagine it's almost a subconscious peer pressure that stops people wearing masks.
		
Click to expand...


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I must admit, I am curious how many people on here in England have continued to wear masks.  If my experience of what I have seen when I have travelled south of the border, I would have to say virtually none.  Whether it is service stations, restaurant, shops, hotels, or other public places, virtually nobody is wearing a mask in an indoor public place.  It really is a shock to the system after seeing how most (not all, I admit) will wear their mask indoors up here in Scotland.  *There are certain demographics I have noticed are less likely to wear the mask,* but I won't discuss that on here to prevent arguments.
I continued to wear mine when in England out of consideration for myself, others and just sheer common sense.  But I can imagine it's almost a subconscious peer pressure that stops people wearing masks.
		
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Wise not to call out shaven headed white blokes with tattoos. Not very mask-friendly.


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## Fade and Die (Nov 29, 2021)

How do they know there are 11 people in the U.K. with Omicron variant? News reports say they are not hospitalised and they and their families are at home “isolating”… Now if I take a test and it’s positive the advice is to stay home and isolate, not go to Hospital for a blood test(?) to discover what variant I have, so I’m curious how do they know?

All Just sounds like another round of Gaslighting.

(Not a denier btw, had my 3 jabs like a good citizen, just tired of the constant fear being whipped up)


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## DanFST (Nov 29, 2021)

Apparently it's easily detectable via PCR tests. 

RSA doctors say it has taken over as the main strain incredibly fast. But no one has died with it, and the symptoms seem less than Delta....




Fade and Die said:



			How do they know there are 11 people in the U.K. with Omicron variant? News reports say they are not hospitalised and they and their families are at home “isolating”… Now if I take a test and it’s positive the advice is to stay home and isolate, not go to Hospital for a blood test(?) to discover what variant I have, so I’m curious how do they know?

All Just sounds like another round of Gaslighting.

(Not a denier btw, had my 3 jabs like a good citizen, just tired of the constant fear being whipped up)
		
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## Hobbit (Nov 29, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Apparently it's easily detectable via PCR tests.

RSA doctors say it has taken over as the main strain incredibly fast. But no one has died with it, and the symptoms seem less than Delta....
		
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All 44 players and staff have it, following the return of one of their players from international duty in SA. All are either asymptomatic or only showing mild symptoms.

Hopefully it turns out to be Covid’s common cold.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I was mainly thinking about Europe, they've had the mask mandate throughout the whole of this, along with Scotland/Wales and their numbers don't appear to have been drastically reduced by mask wearing.
		
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It could be that most infections are caught in places where masks aren't worn like the home, the pub and restaurant.  We have seen in the UK that most infections are in the school age groups and then in the home so wearing masks may well prevent infections.


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Wise not to call out shaven headed white blokes with tattoos. Not very mask-friendly.
		
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Because he would be wrong as it’s mostly teenagers and 20 year olds.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2021)

DanFST said:



View attachment 39723


Obviously from last month and earlier, but the Scots policy of wearing masks everywhere doesn't seem to make too much difference. I'd hazard an uneducated guess that social distancing where possible and proper hygiene has a much greater effect.
		
Click to expand...

Most infections aren't happening where people are wearing masks.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have simple thinking.  The virus is transmitted on air droplets? So on the exhaled breath of someone infected? Walking into town today along quiet road I was not wearing a mask and in the very chilly air I could see clearly how far my cloud of exhaled breath was travelling ahead of me (quite a bit -  I’m guessing over 1m). As I got into town there were more folk about and so I put on a mask…and no longer could I see my exhaled breaths.

I also noticed that it looked like more folk were practicing social distancing.  Stopping and standing aside where pavements narrowed; or walking into the road if safe to do so; and in queue in supermarket back to standing on the 2m marks on the floor.

Also heard comment on illness in SA due to this variant not appearing to be too serious - observation made was to be wary of drawing conclusions from SA as the population is very much younger than UK/Europe, and we know ourselves that younger folk are less seriously impacted.  As only 20% of SA pop is double vaccinated a lot of those picking up the new virus are likely to be younger.
		
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I admit this is simplistic but try blowing out the candles on a birthday cake wearing a mask.


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## DanFST (Nov 29, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Most infections aren't happening where people are wearing masks.
		
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There isn't research on that, so I won't even bite.


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Because he would be wrong as it’s mostly teenagers and 20 year olds.
		
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Well there are more teenagers around, but as a proportion of the relevant group ....


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well there are more teenagers around, but as a proportion of the relevant group ....
		
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Seems you need to change your group of friends, or educate them.


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## Ethan (Nov 29, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Seems you need to change your group of friends
		
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Not my friends, people at Tesco nearby.


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not my friends, people at Tesco nearby.
		
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Times must be hard, don’t you have a Morrison’s.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 29, 2021)

DanFST said:



			There isn't research on that, so I won't even bite.
		
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Ok, but, do you accept or not that masks to "PM 2.5 filter" standard are proficient enough to prevent the virus particle from passing through it.?
If it does, and most "blue" masks are to that standard, then it stands to reason that there will be less spread amongst those wearing them.
There's no cost to wearing them. Where's the downside?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 29, 2021)

DanFST said:



			There isn't research on that, so I won't even bite.
		
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It wasn't posted for you to bite. I assume you would agree that the places where most infections are spread are not where people wear masks but in homes, schools and workplaces.  There has been plenty of scientific research to prove that masks significantly reduce the projection of breath and associated particles.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 29, 2021)

There's a brilliant video on Twitter of Sajid Javid about to be interviewed by Sky's Chief Political Correspondent, Jon Craig. They're talking about the booster and Javid talks Craig into going in to get his booster there and then as he hasn't had it done yet.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465443612263649290


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## Hobbit (Nov 30, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Obviously from last month and earlier, but the Scots policy of wearing masks everywhere doesn't seem to make too much difference. I'd hazard an uneducated guess that social distancing where possible and proper hygiene has a much greater effect.
		
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Two things; most masks I see are comfort/fashion items. And “social distancing” and “proper hygiene” may well have more effect but why not wear a PROPER mask as well. Surely 3 items of protection are better than 2.


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## Neilds (Nov 30, 2021)

Currently suffering from what I hope is man flu ( or react to flu jab last week). Had a PCR test yesterday just in case waiting for result. Praying it is negative as we are off to London to celebrate my 51st birthday with a packed program including Proud Cabaret, London Eye and afternoon tea. 50th last year should have been in Mauritius but ended up with a substantial meal and 2 pints in the local pub so really don’t want another washout of a birthday


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Currently suffering from what I hope is man flu ( or react to flu jab last week). Had a PCR test yesterday just in case waiting for result. Praying it is negative as we are off to London to celebrate my 51st birthday with a packed program including Proud Cabaret, London Eye and afternoon tea. 50th last year should have been in Mauritius but ended up with a substantial meal and 2 pints in the local pub so really don’t want another washout of a birthday
		
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Know that feeling, last year was sat at home for my Birthday in full lockdown. Due down to Brighton a week on Friday for a couple of days, top meal out, gig from one of my favourite bands etc. The more I look at it, the more I think that the best will be covid passports for the gig and maybe the restaurant. Worst case will be be both off. Financially speaking, I really cannot see the hospitality industry being shut down a few weeks before Xmas, I cannot see them bringing back furlough for Xmas (which would be needed for any closures)  but that may be the senisble thing to do.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 30, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Currently suffering from what I hope is man flu ( or react to flu jab last week). Had a PCR test yesterday just in case waiting for result. Praying it is negative as we are off to London to celebrate my 51st birthday with a packed program including Proud Cabaret, London Eye and afternoon tea. 50th last year should have been in Mauritius but ended up with a substantial meal and 2 pints in the local pub so really don’t want another washout of a birthday
		
Click to expand...

Can only sympathise. HID was 50 in October and I wanted to take her away for a mini break but she was due surgery the week of her birthday, and off the following week to recover so that put the kybosh on it and given where we are now, don't think we're even start looking again until after Easter. At least we managed a nice meal before the op to celebrate a little and the pub were great (we've used it for years and know the owners well) so they us free drinks for the night (think they knew my wife would have one glass of wine with dinner - and I didn't push it and only had two beers)


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## road2ruin (Nov 30, 2021)

@Ethan Do you know much about Dr Aseem Malhotra? On the face of it he appears to be credible as a Consultant Cardiologist and I heard him on the radio talking about research presently going on that suggests a large increase in the risk of heart issues due to inflammation caused by mRNA vaccines. The reason I ask is that I am double dosed (both AZ) and was happy to do so, in theory I am now due for my Booster which would be one of the mRNA and listening to him on the radio made we think about delaying the booster jab as my present risk from Covid is very low and so I'd rather wait to see if anything does come out from the figures of issues to do with the Pfizer vaccines etc. Again, this isn't a post about anti-vax and I appreciate that if you read the insert in a Paracetamol packet you'd probably never take them either however if I am looking at personal risk which would present the bigger issue?

I suspect that my decision may be made for me if Vaccine Passports are introduced in England as I would then require the vaccine however reading and listening to the information from the doctor above has made then think.

EDIT:

I know this is from GB News however he is saying here what I heard on the radio....

GB News on Twitter: "'They aren't going to publish their findings, they are concerned about losing research money' Dr Aseem Malhotra reveals a cardiology researcher found similar results to a new report showing an increase in risk of heart attack following the mRNA COVID vaccine. https://t.co/63evorQwlJ" / Twitter


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## Ethan (Nov 30, 2021)

road2ruin said:



@Ethan Do you know much about Dr Aseem Malhotra? On the face of it he appears to be credible as a Consultant Cardiologist and I heard him on the radio talking about research presently going on that suggests a large increase in the risk of heart issues due to inflammation caused by mRNA vaccines. The reason I ask is that I am double dosed (both AZ) and was happy to do so, in theory I am now due for my Booster which would be one of the mRNA and listening to him on the radio made we think about delaying the booster jab as my present risk from Covid is very low and so I'd rather wait to see if anything does come out from the figures of issues to do with the Pfizer vaccines etc. Again, this isn't a post about anti-vax and I appreciate that if you read the insert in a Paracetamol packet you'd probably never take them either however if I am looking at personal risk which would present the bigger issue?

I suspect that my decision may be made for me if Vaccine Passports are introduced in England as I would then require the vaccine however reading and listening to the information from the doctor above has made then think.

EDIT:

I know this is from GB News however he is saying here what I heard on the radio....

GB News on Twitter: "'They aren't going to publish their findings, they are concerned about losing research money' Dr Aseem Malhotra reveals a cardiology researcher found similar results to a new report showing an increase in risk of heart attack following the mRNA COVID vaccine. https://t.co/63evorQwlJ" / Twitter

Click to expand...

For a start, myocarditis is not a heart attack, which generally means myocardial infarction. I had myocarditis about 10 years, as it happens.

I know all about Aseem Malhotra. Let us just say he is a controversial figure in medicine and expresses views on a wide range of subjects with which many disagree. He is a massive self-promoter too.

The myocarditis risk has been seized on as an objection, but data and evidence provide reassurance. Some initial studies on myocarditis showed a much larger incidence and since have been retracted or corrected. The myocarditis from the vaccine, caused by the immune system being stimulated, is different in nature to "wild-type" such as I had, and is much milder.

The highest risk group is young men and adolescents. I was happy for my two boys, aged 12 and 14 to get Pfizer vax. The risk to older people is much lower and very much lower than the risk of Covid. I don't know your medical history but unless you have an allergy to a specific component of the Pfizer vax, I would recommend getting it.


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2021)

Is there much to be read into the reports that all of the cases of Omicron have been asymptomatic or with mild symptons. Is this rhetoric to stop panic or is it possible that, whilst easier to spread, this may actually be a weaker strain so far as symptoms are concerned. I know it is early days yet.


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## bobmac (Nov 30, 2021)

I've heard we should know in 2-3 weeks which means we should get a better idea by next week.
One thing you can be sure of is every available expert will be studying the data 24-7 and we'll know as soon as they do.


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I've heard we should know in 2-3 weeks which means we should get a better idea by next week.
One thing you can be sure of is every available expert will be studying the data 24-7 and we'll know as soon as they do.
		
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think you'll find Karen from Facebook has already posted her opinion


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## bobmac (Nov 30, 2021)

fundy said:



			think you'll find Karen from Facebook has already posted her opinion 

Click to expand...

And I'll bet she still won't get the vaccine.


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## Beezerk (Nov 30, 2021)

Apparently Omnicron B is an anagram of No Crimbo 😂


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 30, 2021)

fundy said:



			think you'll find Karen from Facebook has already posted her opinion 

Click to expand...

Karen is all knowing. People hang on her every word


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## road2ruin (Nov 30, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Apparently Omnicron B is an anagram of No Crimbo 😂
		
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Only if you're a pessimist, it's also 'Crimbo On'!!


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## Neilds (Nov 30, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Currently suffering from what I hope is man flu ( or react to flu jab last week). Had a PCR test yesterday just in case waiting for result. Praying it is negative as we are off to London to celebrate my 51st birthday with a packed program including Proud Cabaret, London Eye and afternoon tea. 50th last year should have been in Mauritius but ended up with a substantial meal and 2 pints in the local pub so really don’t want another washout of a birthday
		
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Test has come back positive 🤬🤬🤬Another birthday spoilt, might give up on them and stay the same age from now on!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Is there much to be read into the reports that all of the cases of Omicron have been asymptomatic or with mild symptons. Is this rhetoric to stop panic or is it possible that, whilst easier to spread, this may actually be a weaker strain so far as symptoms are concerned. I know it is early days yet.
		
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If the reports you refer to are from SA the we have to bear in mind that SA has a significantly younger population and we know that younger folk don’t develop such serious illness.  Plus of course lower percentage of SA pop have been vaccinated so greater numbers will contract the virus and many in that group will be younger.  So drawing conclusions from a quite different demographic with a significantly different level of vaccination is difficult and best to go with the very cautious.


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the reports you refer to are from SA the we have to bear in mind that SA has a significantly younger population and we know that younger folk don’t develop such serious illness.  Plus of course lower percentage of SA pop have been vaccinated so greater numbers will contract the virus and many in that group will be younger.  So drawing conclusions from a quite different demographic with a significantly different level of vaccination is difficult and best to go with the very cautious.
		
Click to expand...

Not just SA, this is the report on the cases located in the EU to date.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 30, 2021)

Neilds said:



			Test has come back positive 🤬🤬🤬Another birthday spoilt, might give up on them and stay the same age from now on!
		
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Bad luck matey. Stay safe and you can always do something another time. Health more important


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## DanFST (Nov 30, 2021)

So almost 2 years on, the majority are vaccinated. Restrictions imposed for what appears to be a highly infectious, but mild strain. 

What's the end goal?


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 30, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So almost 2 years on, the majority are vaccinated. Restrictions imposed for what appears to be a highly infectious, but mild strain. 

What's the end goal?
		
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I'm pretty sure the Home Sec said in Parliament that if data shows this strain to be no more serious than Delta, then the recent addition restrictions will be rescinded when that info is confirmed.
I should think it's early days at the moment


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 30, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So almost 2 years on, the majority are vaccinated. Restrictions imposed for what appears to be a highly infectious, but mild strain.

What's the end goal?
		
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I guess to reach a point where a new strain does not impact too many in the population. We may need to build up our own immunity further or it may need the mutations to lose strength and disappear. 

At this point the restrictions are pretty minimal, other than for overseas travel. Mask wearing has become second nature now and whilst I don't like it it is not a major imposition. The difference this year, hopefully, compared to last is that bars, cafes, restaurants etc are still open and we can hopefully carry on and plough through this spell rather than going into hibernation as we did last year. Time will tell. It would be lovely for everything to just go back to how it was but perhaps we are going to bounce along a bit like this for a while yet, each time the effect reducing until we go full Sweden


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## Billysboots (Nov 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I'm pretty sure the Home Sec said in Parliament that if data shows this strain to be no more serious than Delta, then the recent addition restrictions will be rescinded when that info is confirmed.
I should think it's early days at the moment
		
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Whilst I’m minded to agree, surely the data should already be available from the outbreak in South Africa.

Something doesn’t add up here.


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## SyR (Nov 30, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I’m minded to agree, surely the data should already be available from the outbreak in South Africa.

Something doesn’t add up here.
		
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A lot of countries seem to be bringing in restrictions in the short-term until more is known about the new variant and the response of the current vaccines. 
It seems sensible to restrict things in the short-term, while this is being established.
I'm personally glad to see more people wearing masks on the trains and tube this morning. It's not a big hardship to wear a mask for now.


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## RichA (Nov 30, 2021)

A work colleague I spent this morning with, including 30 minutes unmasked in a cafe, has just let me know that he did a PCR test yesterday and has just received a positive result. 
I've cancelled a visit to my elderly father tomorrow and MiL on Saturday, out of caution. Now I need to think of something to do with the 2 days that have suddenly opened up in my calendar. 
Any ideas?


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2021)

RichA said:



			A work colleague I spent this morning with, including 30 minutes unmasked in a cafe, has just let me know that he did a PCR test yesterday and has just received a positive result.
I've cancelled a visit to my elderly father tomorrow and MiL on Saturday, out of caution. Now I need to think of something to do with the 2 days that have suddenly opened up in my calendar.
Any ideas?
		
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Stick pins in an effigy of your work colleague and especially around the sensitive bits.  If he had carried out a PCR test what was he doing out and about.


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## Rooter (Nov 30, 2021)

RichA said:



			A work colleague I spent this morning with, including 30 minutes unmasked in a cafe, has just let me know that he did a PCR test yesterday and has just received a positive result.
I've cancelled a visit to my elderly father tomorrow and MiL on Saturday, out of caution. Now I need to think of something to do with the 2 days that have suddenly opened up in my calendar.
Any ideas?
		
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So he was out and about while waiting for a PCR result??!! I would go and see his covid coughing arse and punch him in the face. Its twats like this that make Xmas cancelled and the whole Covid saga drags on.


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## Beezerk (Nov 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If he had carried out a PCR test what was he doing out and about.
		
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Because he’s an absolute melt?


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 30, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I’m minded to agree, surely the data should already be available from the outbreak in South Africa.

Something doesn’t add up here.
		
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I would think that there needs to be a fair amount of time to see how seriously it affects various age groups.
There need to be a fair number of each age group infected. Then during the "run " of the virus, how does it affect those infected  and when.
 E.g iIIRC  this illness can seem to get better, and then towards the end it can kick in with its severe effect. In some people.
How are the vaxxed affected? Better or worse than Delta?
S.A scientists identified it being a variant and what it may theoretically do. Then they warned the world . They did not do that after waiting to see it's reality effects, but before.


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## GB72 (Nov 30, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I would think that there needs to be a fair amount of time to see how seriously it affects various age groups.
There need to be a fair number of each age group infected. Then during the "run " of the virus, how does it affect those infected  and when.
E.g iIIRC  this illness can seem to get better, and then towards the end it can kick in with its severe effect. In some people.
How are the vaxxed affected? Better or worse than Delta?
S.A scientists identified it being a variant and what it may theoretically do. Then they warned the world . They did not do that after waiting to see it's reality effects, but before.
		
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Sounds reasonable but then SA were quickly in with comments that we, as well as others, had been far too hasty and rash in introducing the travel ban as it was not that bad. That seemed unecessary bearing in mind that pretty much every country that has found a new variant has been ostracised so far as travel is concerned (us with the Kent variant, India with Delta) so they must have known that was coming.


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## RichA (Nov 30, 2021)

Rooter said:



			So he was out and about while waiting for a PCR result??!! I would go and see his covid coughing arse and punch him in the face. Its twats like this that make Xmas cancelled and the whole Covid saga drags on.
		
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To be fair to him, he got the PCR due to a close contact having tested positive and had no symptoms himself. Being double vaccinated, he was not required to self-isolate and our employer would expect him to work as normal.
The question as to what I should do was rhetorical. I've already booked a tee time.


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## chrisd (Nov 30, 2021)

Popped to an art shop just now and there's still some people strolling around without face masks ?.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 30, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Sounds reasonable but then SA were quickly in with comments that we, as well as others, had been far too hasty and rash in introducing the travel ban as it was not that bad. That seemed unecessary bearing in mind that pretty much every country that has found a new variant has been ostracised so far as travel is concerned (us with the Kent variant, India with Delta) so they must have known that was coming.
		
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Aha, I suspect the S.A. Scientists gave the discovery news.
When the reactions of other countries impacted business etc in S.A., other voices made themselves heard


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 30, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Popped to an art shop just now and there's still some people strolling around without face masks ?.
		
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Art and science rarely on the same wavelength 😀


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Stick pins in an effigy of your work colleague and especially around the sensitive bits.  If he had carried out a PCR test what was he doing out and about.
		
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Depends why he took the PCR test. My dad took one over the weekend after being invited through some kind of NHS programme (I think) to see how prevalent it is in the community. He didn't have to isolate while waiting for the result.


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## road2ruin (Nov 30, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depends why he took the PCR test. My dad took one over the weekend after being invited through some kind of NHS programme (I think) to see how prevalent it is in the community. He didn't have to isolate while waiting for the result.
		
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We have a 7yr old, if we had to isolate every time we were told to have a PCR test we'd have not left the house for the last 2 months.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2021)

Johnson doing a briefing now to address Omicron variant developments…fills me with dread that it’s heading the wrong way  And rebuking Jenny Harries for expressing an opinion on measures not 100% in accordance with current government mandates?  

Just home from town and I saw a high level of compliance in shops…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 30, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I’m minded to agree, surely the data should already be available from the outbreak in South Africa.

Something doesn’t add up here.
		
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The SA demographic is quite different from the UK demographic (it’s much younger) and so it is very difficult to draw conclusions of any great certainty from SA.  Well that is what I have been hearing and is my understanding.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The SA demographic is quite different from the UK demographic (it’s much younger) and so it is very difficult to draw conclusions of any great certainty from SA.  Well that is what I have been hearing and is my understanding.
		
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Don't old people live long in SA or have they all been killed off already with Covid.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't old people live long in SA or have they all been killed off already with Covid.
		
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I don't know the answer but to be fair I've heard the same as SilH in terms of demographics and why they can't make quick comparisons.


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## Ethan (Nov 30, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I don't know the answer but to be fair I've heard the same as SilH in terms of demographics and why they can't make quick comparisons.
		
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The most important difference affecting Covid and vaccination response is HIV prevalence, which is around 20% of the population in SA. Immunocompromised people also ideal breeding ground for variants. We really should give them some vaccines right away if we don't want another repeat of this, perhaps a bad one.


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## road2ruin (Nov 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			We really should give them some vaccines right away if we don't want another repeat of this, perhaps a bad one.
		
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I've been saying this for a while now, personally I think it's far more important that we use the vaccines in areas like that then giving it to 12-15yr olds etc.


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## Neilds (Nov 30, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Depends why he took the PCR test. My dad took one over the weekend after being invited through some kind of NHS programme (I think) to see how prevalent it is in the community. He didn't have to isolate while waiting for the result.
		
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He wasn’t waiting for a result, he said he had received a positive result so should have been self isolating - this is irrespective of symptoms, vaccine status, etc. Personally, I would report him to the police. Selfish people like him risk spoiling it for the rest of us.


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## Ethan (Nov 30, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I've been saying this for a while now, personally I think it's far more important that we use the vaccines in areas like that then giving it to 12-15yr olds etc.
		
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It isn't really either/or. The UK has plenty of vaccines. The pace of booster vax is based on public willingness and staff availability. 

But the UK has not really been in an outward looking foreign aid kinda mood lately.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 30, 2021)

Took the train home. The three people sitting around me not masked so got up and moved. Got two stops down the line and three other people got in unmasked and sat near me so an epic fail on SWT. Decided to hop in a cab rather than a bus full of school kids only for the cabbie to not put a mask on and then he wondered why I asked to get out again


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## Ethan (Nov 30, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Took the train home. The three people sitting around me not masked so got up and moved. Got two stops down the line and three other people got in unmasked and sat near me so an epic fail on SWT. Decided to hop in a cab rather than a bus full of school kids only for the cabbie to not put a mask on and then he wondered why I asked to get out again
		
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The feckless policy and reckless behaviour of certain [redacted] has really undermined any possibility of good compliance with masks.


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## D-S (Nov 30, 2021)

Saw 100% compliance with masks in retail today and even everyone in a coffee shop, though officially not required in hospitality.

Also a lot of people wearing masks in the street too - so not everywhere is the same.


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## RichA (Nov 30, 2021)

Neilds said:



			He wasn’t waiting for a result, he said he had received a positive result so should have been self isolating - this is irrespective of symptoms, vaccine status, etc. Personally, I would report him to the police. Selfish people like him risk spoiling it for the rest of us.
		
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For what it's worth, that's not an accurate summary of what I said in my posts. My colleague did not breach any of the laws or guidelines.


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## DanFST (Nov 30, 2021)

"If we want to give ourselves the best chance of a Christmas with our loved ones" - Sajid Javid, about the booster. What a horrible little man. I thought it was typical media sensationalism, it's a direct quote.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 30, 2021)

Neilds said:



			He wasn’t waiting for a result, he said he had received a positive result so should have been self isolating - this is irrespective of symptoms, vaccine status, etc. Personally, I would report him to the police. Selfish people like him risk spoiling it for the rest of us.
		
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Think you might need to re-read the original post before going off on one and saying to report him to the police. The relevant bit of the original post was, 

"A work colleague I spent this morning with, including 30 minutes unmasked in a cafe, has just let me know that he did a PCR test yesterday and has just received a positive result.
I've cancelled a visit to my elderly father tomorrow and MiL on Saturday, out of caution."

Rich A spent time with his colleague this morning who had a PCR test yesterday. He then got the result and let Rich know it was positive. When they were together he hadn't yet received the result He was tested as a contact of someone else that had tested positive. If he didn't have symptoms then there was no requirement for him to self isolate.


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## Neilds (Nov 30, 2021)

RichA said:



			For what it's worth, that's not an accurate summary of what I said in my posts. My colleague did not breach any of the laws or guidelines.
		
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In that case I apologise for the remarks about him, but still stand by my general comment


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## IanM (Nov 30, 2021)

Went to Cribb Causeway Mall at Bristol today... lots of Xmas shoppers.

I didn't see anyone without a mask.


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## woofers (Nov 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The most important difference affecting Covid and vaccination response is HIV prevalence, which is around 20% of the population in SA. Immunocompromised people also ideal breeding ground for variants. We really should give them some vaccines right away if we don't want another repeat of this, perhaps a bad one.
		
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Agree, but read elsewhere that SA have a good stockpile of vaccines.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It isn't really either/or. The UK has plenty of vaccines. The pace of booster vax is based on public willingness and staff availability.

But the UK has not really been in an outward looking foreign aid kinda mood lately.
		
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South Africa just told Pfizer to hold off deliveries as they have more than enough and they cannot get people to take them. But I suppose that is the UK's fault??


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## theoneandonly (Nov 30, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			South Africa just told Pfizer to hold off deliveries as they have more than enough and they cannot get people to take them. But I suppose that is the UK's fault??
		
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Careful how you speak to the internet's chief medical officer and international covid expert  😝😂


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## SaintHacker (Nov 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The feckless policy and reckless behaviour of certain [redacted] has really undermined any possibility of good compliance with masks.
		
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But that was always going to happen once they let people self exempt themselves by buying a bloody lanyard from morrisons

Sadly my friend passed away at the weekend


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## Billysboots (Nov 30, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But that was always going to happen once they let people self exempt themselves by buying a bloody lanyard from morrisons

Sadly my friend passed away at the weekend
		
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That’s horrible news - so sorry to read that.


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## fundy (Nov 30, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But that was always going to happen once they let people self exempt themselves by buying a bloody lanyard from morrisons

Sadly my friend passed away at the weekend
		
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sorry to hear Paul


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The feckless policy and reckless behaviour of certain [redacted] has really undermined any possibility of good compliance with masks.
		
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Not so. It's down to thoughtless and selfish individuals who decide to kick against all the advice.
They don't fail to wear masks because (redacted) didn't make it against the law not to.


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## DanFST (Nov 30, 2021)

Those pesky, selfish children strike again.



Swinglowandslow said:



			Not so. It's down to thoughtless and selfish individuals who decide to kick against all the advice.
They don't fail to wear masks because (redacted) didn't make it against the law not to.
		
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## Blue in Munich (Nov 30, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			But that was always going to happen once they let people self exempt themselves by buying a bloody lanyard from morrisons

Sadly my friend passed away at the weekend
		
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Sorry to hear that Paul.


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## Swinglowandslow (Nov 30, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Those pesky, selfish children strike again.
		
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???????.   Been a heavy night?


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			South Africa just told Pfizer to hold off deliveries as they have more than enough and they cannot get people to take them. But I suppose that is the UK's fault??
		
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Take a pill, Paul. A strong one.


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## DRW (Dec 1, 2021)

Blimely Myocarditis rates are not great for young males.

Depending on country it seems to be anything from 1 in 3,000 to 1 in 20000ish

Wonder when we will move the discussion onto,  how should we vaccinate and reduce these risks, we should be using other vaccines for example. (assuming you believe in vaccination for young males)


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## Tashyboy (Dec 1, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			Careful how you speak to the *internet's chief medical officer and international covid expert * 😝😂
		
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The “internets chief medical officer” has given more time, help and advice on this forum than most. The advice whether it fits your mantra or not has been greatly appreciated By some, I would suggest most forummers. The advice contributes more than your comment.


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## DRW (Dec 1, 2021)

Just had a couple of interesting days, after my booster jab.

about 2 hours after getting the booster, heart was beating like the clappers so got my oximeter out, it was reading 100-110 for about 4-5 hours. And then high 80s for the next 24 hours. Since then been in the high 70s. Hope it changes soon.

For someone who has a resting heart beat of lowish/mid 50s, it is a bit unsettling.

Dont think I have ever had anything like that before


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## Rooter (Dec 1, 2021)

DRW said:



			Just had a couple of interesting days, after my booster jab.

about 2 hours after getting the booster, heart was beating like the clappers so got my oximeter out, it was reading 100-110 for about 4-5 hours. And then high 80s for the next 24 hours. Since then been in the high 70s. Hope it changes soon.

For someone who has a resting heart beat of lowish/mid 50s, it is a bit unsettling.

Dont think I have ever had anything like that before
		
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My resting HR was up for a few days after the booster, not the levels you saw, but up a good 40/50%


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 1, 2021)

DRW said:



			Just had a couple of interesting days, after my booster jab.

about 2 hours after getting the booster, heart was beating like the clappers so got my oximeter out, it was reading 100-110 for about 4-5 hours. And then high 80s for the next 24 hours. Since then been in the high 70s. Hope it changes soon.

For someone who has a resting heart beat of lowish/mid 50s, it is a bit unsettling.

Dont think I have ever had anything like that before
		
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Was it the Moderna booster? I had that and they laid it on thick about possible heart reactions to this one. Might be worth ringing your gp to check on this.


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2021)

Rooter said:



			My resting HR was up for a few days after the booster, not the levels you saw, but up a good 40/50%
		
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An increase in resting heart rate is a known side effect of the vaccine in some people. It should settle down. It reflects your immune system being activated like what happens when you have a fever.


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



@Ethan Do you know much about Dr Aseem Malhotra? On the face of it he appears to be credible as a Consultant Cardiologist and I heard him on the radio talking about research presently going on that suggests a large increase in the risk of heart issues due to inflammation caused by mRNA vaccines. The reason I ask is that I am double dosed (both AZ) and was happy to do so, in theory I am now due for my Booster which would be one of the mRNA and listening to him on the radio made we think about delaying the booster jab as my present risk from Covid is very low and so I'd rather wait to see if anything does come out from the figures of issues to do with the Pfizer vaccines etc. Again, this isn't a post about anti-vax and I appreciate that if you read the insert in a Paracetamol packet you'd probably never take them either however if I am looking at personal risk which would present the bigger issue?

I suspect that my decision may be made for me if Vaccine Passports are introduced in England as I would then require the vaccine however reading and listening to the information from the doctor above has made then think.

EDIT:

I know this is from GB News however he is saying here what I heard on the radio....

GB News on Twitter: "'They aren't going to publish their findings, they are concerned about losing research money' Dr Aseem Malhotra reveals a cardiology researcher found similar results to a new report showing an increase in risk of heart attack following the mRNA COVID vaccine. https://t.co/63evorQwlJ" / Twitter

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Update:

The research Malhotra was referencing has been given a 'expression of concern' by the journal Circulation. It isn't peer-reviewed and there are some problems with the data used and conclusions reached. Journals publish papers that are peer-reviewed, that is the gold standard, although certainly not foolproof. They also publish short presentations made at clinical meetings associated with the journal, in this case the American Heart Association, who own Circulation. These are not peer reviewed. Essentially, the abstract Malhotra spoke about used a prediction tool for future heart disease and when you put in some figures for heart rate and blood pressure increase, it gives a higher risk of later heart disease. But the heart rate and blood pressure increase are very short term, and the tool assumes that these parameters are chronic. Malhotra knows it is crap, but it fits with his worldview and gets him on TV and lots of retweets, so that's all right then.


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## DRW (Dec 1, 2021)

Rooter said:



			My resting HR was up for a few days after the booster, not the levels you saw, but up a good 40/50%
		
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Cheers, interesting to read. Didn't realise that sometimes it can go up that much % wise. Thats not far from what I am now. 

Not really read or spoke to anyone that had the high heart rate (clearly along with the normal stuff, like dead arm, took me back to school days when someone would punch your arm after your jabs)

I would have made a phonecall to have asked questions, if the 100+ had continued into the evening, just unsettling but not worried as didnt have any pain or other effects.


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## DRW (Dec 1, 2021)

Thought better of it, and I would delete, as doing what I was posting about and that is wrong.

embarrassed. Take care everyone.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 1, 2021)

Wish I hadn't wondered into this thread, had my booster about 2 hours ago, all good so far.....


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2021)

D-S said:



			Saw 100% compliance with masks in retail today and even everyone in a coffee shop, though officially not required in hospitality.

Also a lot of people wearing masks in the street too - so not everywhere is the same.
		
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Ah so not a feckless policy more a people problem. Good to see politics being used by some. Its like the drip drip drip of Chinese torture.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 1, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Wish I hadn't wondered into this thread, had my booster about 2 hours ago, all good so far.....
		
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The clocks ticking.........

Whatever soreness, or not, you may get, you are safer now


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## BiMGuy (Dec 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The clocks ticking.........

Whatever soreness, or not, you may get, you are safer now 

Click to expand...

Unless his ❤️ 💥


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 1, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Unless his ❤️ 💥
		
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Pleased you aren't trying to freak him out . It's a tough crowd in today


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The “internets chief medical officer” has given more time, help and advice on this forum than most. The advice whether it fits your mantra or not has been greatly appreciated By some, I would suggest most forummers. The advice contributes more than your comment.
		
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Chris Whitty recently said something along the lines of 'Don't worry about criticism from people you wouldn't accept advice from'. I think he has it about right. I usually don't bother trying to persuade the people who post crap, because that is usually a futile task.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Take a pill, Paul. A strong one.
		
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not quite sure what that means in the context of you saying we should give South Africa vaccines when they have more than they can use? Supply is not the issue. Totally agree that this thing is not done until we are all vaccinated

https://www.reuters.com/world/afric...cine-deliveries-inoculations-slow-2021-11-24/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...j-j-pfizer-vaccine-delivery-delay-news24-says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...ne-doses-issue-is-more-complicated-than-that/


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## DRW (Dec 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Pleased you aren't trying to freak him out . It's a tough crowd in today 

Click to expand...

I would worry if the vaccine batch number ends with 999


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2021)

D-S said:



			Saw 100% compliance with masks in retail today and even everyone in a coffee shop, though officially not required in hospitality.

Also a lot of people wearing masks in the street too - so not everywhere is the same.
		
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Just back from town and this was what we observed also.  And going into our local town centre (small) Sainsbury's - member of staff at entrance handing out masks to all who were coming in without one on.


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2021)

DRW said:



			I would worry if the vaccine batch number ends with 999

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Thank heavens, mine was 666


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## spongebob59 (Dec 1, 2021)

🚨 Source - Politics for all.

🚨🚨 | BREAKING: The Omicron variant appears to be a ‘super mild‘ mutation with Covid death rate in South Africa not jumping.

There have been no reports of hospitalisations or deaths as a result of anyone being diagnosed with Omicron.


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2021)

First of our booster stations opened up in Ilfracombe today, ran out of vaccine by 1230 hrs.


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## GB72 (Dec 1, 2021)

I am honestly interested, and not making a point of any sort, but can anyone explain (without getting politicial) why the WHO are so keen to downplay the Omicron variant. The reaction from other nations has been similar to the Kent variant and Delta and not disproportionate and there seems to be quite a bit of sensible talk about letting the data develop before any changes in opinions are formed. The WHO seems to have taken a very strict view on most things (even quite extreme in some cases) but really seem to be downplaying this variant and making every effort to put across the view that it is mild and world is over reacting. Just seems a very contrary stance to everything that has gone before.


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## DRW (Dec 1, 2021)

GB72 said:



			I am honestly interested, and not making a point of any sort, but can anyone explain (without getting politicial) why the WHO are so keen to downplay the Omicron variant. The reaction from other nations has been similar to the Kent variant and Delta and not disproportionate and there seems to be quite a bit of sensible talk about letting the data develop before any changes in opinions are formed. The WHO seems to have taken a very strict view on most things (even quite extreme in some cases) but really seem to be downplaying this variant and making every effort to put across the view that it is mild and world is over reacting. Just seems a very contrary stance to everything that has gone before.
		
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They believe the vaccines will still be very effective against severe stuff, as our immune system complex/polyclonal. It also gets better at 'targeting' variants with the booster or infection(real life data on infection shows it gets even better on variants. I am not suggesting to get infected before vaccination btw).

Whilst antibodies maybe not great with the new variant (not know for certain yet, time and initially lab stuff will come though), assuming this is true, then break though infections will rise. Which may not be good news for the much older groups.

But T cells however target part of the virus that with this variant is fairly similar to the other variants of concern (has been posted by a number of top people/labs). Again time will tell tho.

Transmission/immune escape and how lethal it is, questions, are basically still unknown.

Lets not forgot we are currently battling a delta wave (who knows what the future brings). Get those boosters in the arms of the old/venerable now.

Will give this thread a shout out and to the tweetor, who generally worth readings for updates (if you are vaccine hesitant or unsure, deals with things perfectly and encouragingly)

Chise 🧬🧫🦠💉🔜 MFF on Twitter: "If there is one thing I am going to tell you today it is to IGNORE the media and the clickbait headlines on this new variant. There is NO plausible scenario this will take us back to square one and there is a lot of misinformation currently circulating. Working on a thread now." / Twitter

if you wish to read from proper people on twitter, got plenty of threads saved, which happy to post up, edit such as Bloom Lab on Twitter: "Here's how mutations in #SARSCoV2 Nu variant (B.1.1.529) will affect polyclonal and monoclonal antibodies targeting RBD. These assessments based on deep-mutational scanning experiments; underlying data can be explored interactively at https://t.co/uP3IKvnDw0 (1/n)" / Twitter

You can not stop variants coming into the country, unless you close off all borders and all supply chains.

Lots of guessing currently.


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## chellie (Dec 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Was it the Moderna booster? I had that and they laid it on thick about possible heart reactions to this one. Might be worth ringing your gp to check on this.
		
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HID had the Moderna and there was no mention of heart issues. Given he should need to be aware of this that's a bit worrying. He was fine though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 1, 2021)

chellie said:



			HID had the Moderna and there was no mention of heart issues. Given he should need to be aware of this that's a bit worrying. He was fine though.
		
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I was told verbally, very deliberately, and also the leaflet for the jab made a big play for this. I didn't get a similar warning for my first two, AZ, and my wife didn't get this for hers, Pfizer, so it made me take note.

The fact they made a big point about it surprises me that nothing was said to your hubby. Maybe the person he was dealing with had been there so long they had become bored of the routine and had given up with repeating the same lines? Pleased all was well though


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## chellie (Dec 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I was told verbally, very deliberately, and also the leaflet for the jab made a big play for this. I didn't get a similar warning for my first two, AZ, and my wife didn't get this for hers, Pfizer, so it made me take note.

The fact they made a big point about it surprises me that nothing was said to your hubby. Maybe the person he was dealing with had been there so long they had become bored of the routine and had given up with repeating the same lines? Pleased all was well though 

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Are you supposed to read the leaflets Only thing he mentioned was they asked about any allergies or if he was on blood thinners. Like you say all was ok though.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 1, 2021)

chellie said:



			Are you supposed to read the leaflets Only thing he mentioned was they asked about any allergies or if he was on blood thinners. Like you say all was ok though.
		
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Normally I skim them at best but when they and it mentioned heart racing and speak to your doctor / 111 if it does it focused my mind a little more than usual. It was a level up on the usual scary things that are in leaflets.


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2021)

I had the Moderna booster too, and they didn't even know I was the internet's Chief Medical Officer, and nobody mentioned any heart effects.


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## Imurg (Dec 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I had the Moderna booster too, and they didn't even know I was the internet's Chief Medical Officer, and nobody mentioned any heart effects.
		
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I'd sue them.....


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## DRW (Dec 1, 2021)

chellie said:



			Are you supposed to read the leaflets Only thing he mentioned was they asked about any allergies or if he was on blood thinners. Like you say all was ok though.
		
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Sorry, Wish I hadn't posted now, Sorry I didn't mean to make anyone worried or the like and left it until I was happy in myself (as an update checking myself now whilst working/typing this rubbish, I'm now down to mid 60s, so still moving in the right direction).

I only posted about it, as it was something that took me by surprise because I had not read or heard about that kind of effect.  And to let others know, to prewarn as such, take things easy after getting it, Wouldnt recommend rushing out and do kick boxing.


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## upsidedown (Dec 1, 2021)

Had Moderna booster on Monday and no side effects apart from slightly stiff arm yesterday. Couldn't believe the conversation going on behind from 2 blokes, so much mis information and myths being shared


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## Tashyboy (Dec 1, 2021)

Don’t know if this has been mentioned before. But some folk are pushing for Ivermectin to be used as a treatment for COVID. Some trials are being done and it’s not approved anywhere. Would be interested to see if Ethan has heard owt.


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## fundy (Dec 1, 2021)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-new-antiviral-pills-help-thwart-covid/


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## chellie (Dec 1, 2021)

DRW said:



			Sorry, Wish I hadn't posted now, Sorry I didn't mean to make anyone worried or the like and left it until I was happy in myself (as an update checking myself now whilst working/typing this rubbish, I'm now down to mid 60s, so still moving in the right direction).

I only posted about it, as it was something that took me by surprise because I had not read or heard about that kind of effect.  And to let others know, to prewarn as such, take things easy after getting it, Wouldnt recommend rushing out and do kick boxing.

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Don't worry about it.  He had it on the 23/11. Glad you ok Darren.


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2021)

Interesting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59487399 I presume all those that refuse go to stalag 12


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 1, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Was it the Moderna booster? I had that and they laid it on thick about possible heart reactions to this one. Might be worth ringing your gp to check on this.
		
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Haha- answer in 3 weeks time😀


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2021)

Pfizer Booster jag just done…
Lots of young folk and teens getting first or second jags


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## road2ruin (Dec 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59487399 I presume all those that refuse go to stalag 12
		
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Personally I would be strongly against and not something I would like to see. 

I wonder what the legal standing would be especially for people that had an adverse reaction and died as a result. Whilst vaccinations are a choice we know the risks and we make a decision based on our own personal circumstances etc however if you are forced into it and die as a result then who is taking responsibility for that?


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Don’t know if this has been mentioned before. But some folk are pushing for Ivermectin to be used as a treatment for COVID. Some trials are being done and it’s not approved anywhere. Would be interested to see if Ethan has heard owt.
		
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Heard 'owt? Heard lots. Ivermectin is much beloved of anti-vaxx types. 

Despite some initial interest based on rather dodgy studies, now shown not to have any benefit in Covid. FDA has advised people not to take it because it can cause nasty side effects. It is the 2021 version of hydroxychloroquine. I am betting on blood-letting making a bid as the 2022 contender.


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## Ethan (Dec 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Personally I would be strongly against and not something I would like to see.

I wonder what the legal standing would be especially for people that had an adverse reaction and died as a result. Whilst vaccinations are a choice we know the risks and we make a decision based on our own personal circumstances etc however if you are forced into it and die as a result then who is taking responsibility for that?
		
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I am not in favour of mandatory vaccinations for the general public, apart from NHS and care workers and possibly some other similar public services that most of us come into contact with, but I am in favour of requiring Covid passports for indoor entertainment venues and suchlike. So people have a choice, albeit one with consequences.


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## road2ruin (Dec 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am not in favour of mandatory vaccinations for the general public, apart from NHS and care workers and possibly some other similar public services that most of us come into contact with, but I am in favour of requiring Covid passports for indoor entertainment venues and suchlike. So people have a choice, albeit one with consequences.
		
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And I think that is potentially the direction of travel although if Omicron ends up being very mild but also very transmissible regardless of vaccination status then passports might be a waste of time. I just don't believe that any Government should force people into any vaccination especially for something that (fortunately) for the vast majority is very mild and the vaccination could (however small) pose more of a risk than severe illness from the virus.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am not in favour of mandatory vaccinations for the general public, apart from NHS and care workers and possibly some other similar public services that most of us come into contact with, but I am in favour of requiring *Covid passports for indoor entertainment venues* and suchlike. So people have a choice, albeit one with consequences.
		
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I’ll note that on *this* my lad recently did three events in Scotland where those attending had to show their V/P.  He was surprised and heartened how smoothly and hassle-free it went - he feared trouble, hassle and long queues.

As a result he would be supportive of them being required in England as a means of reducing likelihood of venues having to be shut in the event of high(er) levels of infection spread.


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## Old Skier (Dec 1, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Personally I would be strongly against and not something I would like to see.

I wonder what the legal standing would be especially for people that had an adverse reaction and died as a result. Whilst vaccinations are a choice we know the risks and we make a decision based on our own personal circumstances etc however if you are forced into it and die as a result then who is taking responsibility for that?
		
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Apart from work requirements it's something that is impossible to implement and even at work level it would be interesting to see a legal claim by someone who is already employed.  Change in terms and conditions may result in redundancy issues.


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## Hobbit (Dec 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’ll note that on *this* my lad recently did three events in Scotland where those attending had to show their V/P.  He was surprised and heartened how smoothly and hassle-free it went - he feared trouble, hassle and long queues.

As a result he would be supportive of them being required in England as a means of reducing likelihood of venues having to be shut in the event of high(er) levels of infection spread.
		
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A few months ago you argued vaccine passports for venues would be impossible to implement, and there would be chaos and aggro on the door…


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 1, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			A few months ago you argued vaccine passports for venues would be impossible to implement, and there would be chaos and aggro on the door…
		
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That is what my lad thought…he has changed his mind as time and the evidence has proven him wrong - that his fears seem to have been unfounded.

Though a sample size of three - and all in Scotland where ‘requirements’ on the public in respect of mask wearing etc have been maintained at a higher level than in England - is perhaps not a great basis for extrapolation to UK-wide.

Must ask him if he has wider feedback from venues across Scotland and whether or not he thinks it would be a goer in England.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2021)

Germany goes for vaccine passports — unvaccinated to be barred from restaurants, pubs, cinemas, gyms, Xmas markets, cultural events and non-essential shops. Backed by Chancellor Merkel and her incoming successor (next week) Olaf Schulz, who wants to make vaccination compulsory.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Germany goes for vaccine passports — unvaccinated to be barred from restaurants, pubs, cinemas, gyms, Xmas markets, cultural events and non-essential shops. Backed by Chancellor Merkel and her incoming successor (next week) Olaf Schulz, who wants to make vaccination compulsory.
		
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The polizie may carry guns but I can't see how they will police much of this.


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## road2ruin (Dec 2, 2021)

Read today that the FDA have been ordered by the courts to release information after an FOI request by a group of scientists on adverse reactions to the Pfizer vaccine. Originally the FDA said they’d need 55 years before releasing the data!!

Documents are already being released with the first lot available online. I have edited the post not to include the link as I had a rethink and didn’t want to spread possible misinformation. I’m assuming those who understand will explain whether it’s something to worry about or not.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The polizie may carry guns but I can't see how they will police much of this.
		
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Zey have vays of making you jab.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Zey have vays of making you jab.
		
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Have the Jab or a night of lust with Merkel 😳


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## IanM (Dec 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Interesting https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-59487399 I presume all those that refuse go to stalag 12
		
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...and BBC position will align accordingly 😉


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2021)

Mandatory jabs or a full blown covid passport similar to the German model simply won't be applied in the UK. The human righters and civil liberty brigade would see to that long before it came close to reaching parliament and a vote. Not right necessarily depending on your point of view and given where I work it is something I am in favour of, especially when you see some of the unvaccinated patients we have had lately, and some of the outcomes


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Mandatory jabs or a full blown covid passport similar to the German model simply won't be applied in the UK. The human righters and civil liberty brigade would see to that long before it came close to reaching parliament and a vote. Not right necessarily depending on your point of view and given where I work it is something I am in favour of, especially when you see some of the unvaccinated patients we have had lately, and some of the outcomes
		
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It won't be applied because it will manly, like in Germany  will be difficult to police and would cost major amounts of money for some businesses to get it up and running.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It won't be applied because it will manly, like in Germany  will be difficult to police and would cost major amounts of money for some businesses to get it up and running.
		
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Am I right in thinking (and stand to be corrected) that mandatory passports have been introduced elsewhere though and have been working (to some degree). Didn't Austria do it recently?


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Am I right in thinking (and stand to be corrected) that mandatory passports have been introduced elsewhere though and have been working (to some degree). Didn't Austria do it recently?
		
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Some have been saying they will do it bit nobody has come up with how or what sanctions can be applied.

IMO removing freedom of choice is a dangerous route to go down.


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## road2ruin (Dec 2, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not right necessarily depending on your point of view and given where I work it is something I am in favour of, especially when you see some of the unvaccinated patients we have had lately, and some of the outcomes
		
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But that is their choice, their decision. What about those who die as a result of the vaccine? However tiny that number it will have happened because it was forced upon them. That, for me, is far worse than some unvaccinated succumbing to the virus through their own choice however harsh that sounds. 

The vaccine roll out was always about protecting the vulnerable etc, it should never be a mandatory thing imo.


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## Leftitshort (Dec 2, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Mandatory jabs or a full blown covid passport similar to the German model simply won't be applied in the UK. The human righters and civil liberty brigade would see to that long before it came close to reaching parliament and a vote. Not right necessarily depending on your point of view and given where I work it is something I am in favour of, especially when you see some of the unvaccinated patients we have had lately, and some of the outcomes
		
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 human righters & civil Liberty brigade🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 there’s a different word for anyone who would implement mandatory vaccines


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## Hobbit (Dec 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It won't be applied because it will manly, like in Germany  will be difficult to police and would cost major amounts of money for some businesses to get it up and running.
		
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Mmm. I want to be able to drive without the need for a driving licence… bit simplistic I know but…

Seriously though, I agree it should be by choice, but that restrictions be in place for those that choose not to have it. No going in a pub or restaurant, nor a cinema or concert. No going into shops nor sitting on a plane. That isn’t just restricting their ‘liberties,’ it’s, more importantly, protecting other people.


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## Leftitshort (Dec 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm. I want to be able to drive without the need for a driving licence… bit simplistic I know but…

Seriously though, I agree it should be by choice, but that restrictions be in place for those that choose not to have it. No going in a pub or restaurant, nor a cinema or concert. No going into shops nor sitting on a plane. That isn’t just restricting their ‘liberties,’ it’s, more importantly, protecting other people.
		
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If that’s what it takes ….Yep. Making it mandatory is going down a very dark road


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm. I want to be able to drive without the need for a driving licence… bit simplistic I know but…

Seriously though, I agree it should be by choice, but that restrictions be in place for those that choose not to have it. No going in a pub or restaurant, nor a cinema or concert. No going into shops nor sitting on a plane. That isn’t just restricting their ‘liberties,’ it’s, more importantly, protecting other people.
		
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This was what I was alluding to and is the first stage of the German plan https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...rictions-brought-in-for-unvaccinated-12484587 and access to shops etc will be restricted to those jabbed. That is a sensible suggestion but again in the run up to Christmas and in busy shopping areas (Lakeside, Oxford Street) with people going from shop to shop how would it be managed here or in the German (or anywhere else) equivalent. I simply fear even a plan like this will be met with harsh protest even though it would be protecting others


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## road2ruin (Dec 2, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			This was what I was alluding to and is the first stage of the German plan https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...rictions-brought-in-for-unvaccinated-12484587 and access to shops etc will be restricted to those jabbed. That is a sensible suggestion but again in the run up to Christmas and in busy shopping areas (Lakeside, Oxford Street) with people going from shop to shop how would it be managed here or in the German (or anywhere else) equivalent. I simply fear even a plan like this will be met with harsh protest even though it would be protecting others
		
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Thing is, I would agree with these restrictions a lot more if the vaccine meant that there was no transmission however whilst it may reduce it slightly it still seems plenty easy for it to spread from vaccinated to vaccinated, vaccinated to unvaccinated and so on. Given this is the case then surely the only people who are really at risk are the unvaccinated and that is their choice. 

Those who are vulnerable will have the vaccine and will be as protected as they can be but they’ll just as likely catch it from well meaning family members as the unvaccinated.


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## upsidedown (Dec 2, 2021)

Vaccine passports are already here !! We've booked to see "We will rock you " at Bristol Hippodrome next April and will need to show proof of Covid vaccine


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2021)

I believe Austria are introducing a €100 weekly fine for unvaccinated.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe Austria are introducing a €100 weekly fine for unvaccinated.
		
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I'm fairly sure it's monthly not weekly but yes, if you are unvaccinated you have to pay €100 a month to the government.


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## fundy (Dec 2, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm fairly sure it's monthly not weekly but yes, if you are unvaccinated you have to pay €100 a month to the government.
		
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Thought that was Greece?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 2, 2021)

fundy said:



			Thought that was Greece?
		
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Just Googled it and Greece are considering fining anyone over 60 that isn't vaccinated €100 per month. Not sure how they will get away with that with age discrimination laws. Austria are considering fines of €7200 for anyone that's not vaccinated.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2021)

fundy said:



			Thought that was Greece?
		
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Over 60’s
What happens when they say “no money” throw me in jail.

Dark days


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 2, 2021)

Simple question and may have been asked before. Should people who refuse to be vaccinated if they catch COVID have the opportunity to go to hospital for treatment?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Simple question and may have been asked before. Should people who refuse to be vaccinated if they catch COVID have the opportunity to go to hospital for treatment?
		
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Its not do different to alcoholics, smokers, druggies etc so the answer is yes.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Over 60’s
What happens when they say “no money” throw me in jail.

Dark days
		
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They could always get a jab. As some one mentioned, what if you want to drive and not have a licence or insurance or no TV licence.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm. I want to be able to drive without the need for a driving licence… bit simplistic I know but…

Seriously though, I agree it should be by choice, but that restrictions be in place for those that choose not to have it. No going in a pub or restaurant, nor a cinema or concert. No going into shops nor sitting on a plane. That isn’t just restricting their ‘liberties,’ it’s, more importantly, protecting other people.
		
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Who will pay for the extra staffing required to do the checks or next will governments close down establishments that cannot afford to pay for extra staff.

German Christmas Markets would be a nightmare as many of them are in residential areas as well as town centres. What happens there, no exit or entry to people’s houses.

Like I posted earlier, policing these restrictions in many circumstances will be close to impossible.


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## Old Skier (Dec 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			They could always get a jab. As some one mentioned, what if you want to drive and not have a licence or insurance or no TV licence.
		
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I think you missed the point.


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## DanFST (Dec 2, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not do different to alcoholics, smokers, druggies etc so the answer is yes.
		
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Cigarettes and alcohol are heavily taxed. 

around £10million is made via tobacco duty, and then more with VAT. Whilst estimated costs to the taxpayer is estimated at £3 - 4.5 million.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Some have been saying they will do it bit nobody has come up with how or what sanctions can be applied.

IMO removing freedom of choice is a dangerous route to go down.
		
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They've reduced your choice to drive on the right hand side of the road!

Laws of all kinds "reduce your choice". To do something or refrain from doing something!😳


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I think you missed the point.
		
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Not really.  I'm not advocating throwing people in jail willy nilly but like any other law infringement that course of action is way down the road after community service, paying by installments and so on.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 2, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Cigarettes and alcohol are heavily taxed.

around £10million is made via tobacco duty, and then more with VAT. Whilst estimated costs to the taxpayer is estimated at £3 - 4.5 million.
		
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What's that to do with the point in discussion. It wasnt about the net cost, rather the moral duty of care for Ill people.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 2, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Thing is, I would agree with these restrictions a lot more if the vaccine meant that there was no transmission however whilst it may reduce it slightly it still seems plenty easy for it to spread from vaccinated to vaccinated, vaccinated to unvaccinated and so on. Given this is the case then surely the only people who are really at risk are the unvaccinated and that is their choice. 

Those who are vulnerable will have the vaccine and will be as protected as they can be but they’ll just as likely catch it from well meaning family members as the unvaccinated.
		
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I believe Ethan has explained to you before that it is not as stark as you are saying. The unvaxxed spread it easier than the vaxxed. Viral loads etc.
Then there is the unnecessary burden on hospitals.
Why defend this defiance to be a responsible citizen?


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## Old Skier (Dec 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What's that to do with the point in discussion. It wasnt about the net cost, rather the moral duty of care for Ill people.
		
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I think if you go down the moral duty of care route I'm sure there have been times when we have ignored the moral duty of care we have in many aspects of everyday life.


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not do different to alcoholics, smokers, druggies etc so the answer is yes.
		
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Totally disagree.
Alcoholics, smokers and drug users are mostly addicted to the substance and there is no simple way to stop them becoming addicted.
Yes, no-one forces them to smoke, drink or take drugs but I think if they were offered a jab that would cure them, they would take it in a heartbeat, especially if it stopped them being addicted in the first place.
I won't even go into the fact that alcohol, cigarettes and drugs aren't contagious, Covid is.


At present we have people who have the opportunity (medically) to get this free brilliant vaccine and for whatever selfish reason, they refuse to take it. They should sign a form to say they accept, although they will get treated eventually, they will have to go to the back of the queue.
Why should an accident victim or a cancer sufferer be denied an intensive care bed because someone has caught a potentially fatal virus because they didn't want to take a simple jab?
It's nuts.

As for the vaccine passports, they should be called your vaccine record, that might stop the idiots comparing them to the Nazis asking to see your papers.
It will be credit card sized and sit in your wallet or purse next to your other cards.

Some may think that's a bit extreme but these are extreme times.
Carrying a credit card is less of a hardship than when people were asked to carry gas masks in 1940


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Totally disagree.
Alcoholics, smokers and drug users are mostly addicted to the substance and there is no simple way to stop them becoming addicted.
Yes, no-one forces them to smoke, drink or take drugs but I think if they were offered a jab that would cure them, they would take it in a heartbeat, especially if it stopped them being addicted in the first place.
*I won't even go into the fact that alcohol, cigarettes and drugs aren't contagious, Covid is.*

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Sorry but I disagree, whilst they may not be contagious how many hospital beds are full of people there because of the actions of those who have drunk too much or on drugs? 

You cannot start deciding to treat some people and then delay others because you do not agree with their choices. Doesn't that give medical professionals carte blanche to do so on other things when they do not agree with the choices made. The NHS is there to treat all and not to decide who are more/less deserving.


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why defend this defiance to be a responsible citizen?
		
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When the initial jabs were made available I had mine at the first available opportunity however I do find myself becoming somewhat 'vaccine hesitant' about taking the booster as it will likely be Pfizer and the adverse reactions do concern me. The numbers are likely to be very small however statistically they may well be higher than any issues I would have with the virus itself given my age/health etc. I am not saying that I won't have the booster however I have cancelled my December slot for the time being whilst I really think about it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I won't even go into the fact that alcohol, cigarettes and drugs aren't contagious, Covid is.
		
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Perhaps not in a viral infection way…but in other ways an addiction can be, and often is, ‘contagious’…especially within the addicts family…and most certainly the damage and illness an addict suffers is contagious in that it is very often reflected by physical and mental damage in those close to the addict.

The best, often only, way to help those damaged by the addict is to help and treat the addict.  Abandon the addict and you abandon a whole circle of family and friends.


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps not in a viral infection way…but in other ways an addiction can be, and often is, ‘contagious’…especially within the addicts family…and most certainly the damage and illness an addict suffers is contagious in that it is very often reflected by physical and mental damage in those close to the addict.

The best, often only, way to help those damaged by the addict is to help and treat the addict.  Abandon the addict and you abandon a whole circle of family and friends.
		
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Alcoholics/drug takers can not infect doctors and nurses who are treating them.
Covid patients can.
And where did I say that drug addicts shouldn't be treated?
Do I have to make it any clearer or are you just looking for an argument.


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Alcoholics/drug takers can not infect doctors and nurses who are treating them.
Covid patients can.
And where did I say that drug addicts shouldn't be treated?
Do I have to make it any clearer or are you just looking for an argument.
		
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To be fair to SILH I didn't read his comment as looking for an argument. You suggested that unvaccinated Covid patients should be put to the back of a queue because of a decision they've made. That's fine however where does it stop? A drunk driver has an accident, back of the queue. A drunk addict who OD's, again, back of the queue as both made questionable decisions that has lead them into A&E on a trolley. We should never get to the point where medical professionals are able to treat/not treat people based on their personal decisions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Alcoholics/drug takers can not infect doctors and nurses who are treating them.
Covid patients can.
And where did I say that drug addicts shouldn't be treated?
Do I have to make it any clearer or are you just looking for an argument.
		
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I simply commented on your statement_…’I won't even go into the fact that alcohol, cigarettes and drugs aren't contagious, Covid is’_…that was made at the end of the first para in which no care context was given, and made clear the specific context and ways in which addictions _can_ be ‘contagious’ in the broadest sense.


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We should never get to the point where medical professionals are able to treat/not treat people based on their personal decisions.
		
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The unvaccinated covid patient made the decision to not take the vaccine, knowing the outcome would mean going to the back of the queue, their choice.


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply commented on your statement_…’I won't even go into the fact that alcohol, cigarettes and drugs aren't contagious, Covid is’_…that was made at the end of the first para in which no care context was given, and made clear the specific context and ways in which addictions _can_ be ‘contagious’ in the broadest sense.
		
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Do you agree that a Covid patient who had the option to take the vaccine but chose not to do so, is more likely to infect other patients and staff with Covid than an alcoholic is to infect patients and staff with their alcoholism?


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Do you agree that a Covid patient who had the option to take the vaccine but chose not to do so, is more likely to infect other patients and staff with Covid than an alcoholic is to infect patients and staff with their alcoholism?
		
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They alcoholic, drug addict, obese person (not all I appreciate) have all made a choice, at some point, that has lead them to the point of them being in hospital. You can disagree as much as you like however all should be treated equally.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They alcoholic, drug addict, obese person (not all I appreciate) have all made a choice, at some point, that has lead them to the point of them being in hospital. You can disagree as much as you like however all should be treated equally.
		
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Whilst I agree with the general thrust of your argument, I might quibble with your use of the word ‘_choice’_ as a generalisation in the context of substance addictions, as opposed to anti-vaxxers who in the vast majority of cases do seem to _choose_ to not be vaccinated.


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They alcoholic, drug addict, obese person (*not all* I appreciate) *have all* made a choice, at some point, that has lead them to the point of them being in hospital. You can disagree as much as you like however all should be treated equally.
		
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Make up your mind.
I doubt there are many who have chosen to be obese, an alcoholic or a drug taker, unlike someone choosing not to take a life saving vaccine which could potentially infect/kill him/her self and others in hospital.


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Make up your mind.
I doubt there are many who have chosen to be obese, an alcoholic or a drug taker, unlike someone choosing not to take a life saving vaccine which could potentially infect/kill him/her self and others in hospital.
		
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The 'not all' was specifically for the obese people as for some it is not a choice, some it is a medical condition whilst for others it is just too much cake. I was trying to be careful and not tar all with the same brush.


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## DanFST (Dec 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			What's that to do with the point in discussion. It wasnt about the net cost, rather the moral duty of care for Ill people.
		
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Cost plays a massive part, don't be ignorant. 

It's much easier to treat smokers, whilst they will require more time in hospital. They pay for that in full via duty, and provide a huge excess which can be used for staff and equipment elsewhere.


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## Ethan (Dec 3, 2021)

My opinion, and I don't intend to stay in this debate, on smoking, alcohol etc vs Covid.

I think there are considerable differences which make the question of linking an action and its consequences very difficult. These include risk to self, risk to others and pressure on the NHS.

I abhor smoking and always have. I was really happy to see smoke-free pubs, cinemas etc. There is no safe or advisable level of smoking. The adverse health effects of smoking are considerable, but they affect people very differently and often do so remotely in time. I worked on a chest ward where we had lots of people with chronic emphysema and bronchitis, and lung cancers. Almost all were former or current smokers. It was amazing to see people come in who couldn't blow hard enough to move a feather 6 inches from their lips, and their only objective was to get enough puff back to smoke again.

Alcohol is a somewhat different situation. The relationship between consumption and adverse heath effects is often said to resemble a J-shaped curve on a graph. In other words, the health effects of a small amount are better than none, but they get worse again beyond a small amount. This may be due to a modest anti-thrombotic effect of a small amount of alcohol. many people drink through their lives and experience no apparent health effects. And like smokers, drinkers play plenty of tax and duty to the public purse.

You could add fat middle aged blokes who unwisely decide to take up running, and people who do "charity" parachute jumps to the list too. 

Unlike those, Covid has the additional risk of causing direct harm to others. This makes a difference. Your personal health autonomy is all fine and dandy, but you have no ethical right to make decisions on the risk others should have to experience. Also, the relationship between the vaccination or otherwise and that risk to others is pretty clear. If someone in middle age has a heart attack, was it due to their smoking or drinking? Maybe, maybe not. But if someone catches Covid, they got it from someone in their circle of contacts. Stopping people smoking will rescue lung cancer deaths, but gradually over the next 30 years. Vaccinating everyone and using effective hygiene measures will reduce Covid cases tomorrow. If people won't do the right thing, the right thing needs to be done for them.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 3, 2021)

bobmac said:



*Alcoholics/drug takers can not infect doctors and nurses who are treating them.*
Covid patients can.
And where did I say that drug addicts shouldn't be treated?
Do I have to make it any clearer or are you just looking for an argument.
		
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They absolutely can.


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## bobmac (Dec 3, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			They absolutely can.
		
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So you're saying an alcoholic/drug taker can infect a nurse or doctor with their alcoholism and or drug abuse?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Cost plays a massive part, don't be ignorant.

It's much easier to treat smokers, whilst they will require more time in hospital. They pay for that in full via duty, and provide a huge excess which can be used for staff and equipment elsewhere.
		
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Before you throw insults around read what was posted and if you decide to comment keep it relevant to the point in question.

The point I made replying to a previous post was that in my opinion people unvaccinated with Covid should be treated in hospital the same as people I'll through smoking, drug abuse, alcoholism etc. You decided to defend smokers and alcoholics due them paying high tax.   My point was nothing to do with the costs but based on the way the health system does not differentiate on who it treats.

Also, if you are suggesting smoking can be defended due to the amount of tax smokers pay then I disagree with you in no uncertain terms, the tax is there as a deterrent.


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## Ethan (Dec 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Before you throw insults around read what was posted and if you decide to comment keep it relevant to the point in question.

The point I made replying to a previous post was that in my opinion people unvaccinated with Covid should be treated in hospital the same as people I'll through smoking, drug abuse, alcoholism etc. You decided to defend smokers and alcoholics due them paying high tax.   My point was nothing to do with the costs but based on the way the health system does not differentiate on who it treats.

Also, if you are suggesting smoking can be defended due to the amount of tax smokers pay then I disagree with you in no uncertain terms, the tax is there as a deterrent.
		
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If the doctor looking after the last ICU bed had 2 patients in front of him/her who needed it, and they were clinically otherwise identical except one had been vaccinated and the other not, I would 100% support him/her choosing the vaccinated patient. The other made a choice, and choices have consequences. You run the risk of adverse events from vaccination if you take it, you run the risk of other adverse events if you don't.


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## DanFST (Dec 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Before you throw insults around read what was posted and if you decide to comment keep it relevant to the point in question.

The point I made replying to a previous post was that in my opinion people unvaccinated with Covid should be treated in hospital the same as people I'll through smoking, drug abuse, alcoholism etc. You decided to defend smokers and alcoholics due them paying high tax.   My point was nothing to do with the costs but based on the way the health system does not differentiate on who it treats.

Also, if you are suggesting smoking can be defended due to the amount of tax smokers pay then I disagree with you in no uncertain terms, the tax is there as a deterrent.
		
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Ignorance is not an insult, a fair few people disagree with your comment, including me. 

If you think taxation is a deterrent to an addict, then I don't know what to say! But the facts are smokers create a financial surplus of billions each year.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			If the doctor looking after the last ICU bed had 2 patients in front of him/her who needed it, and they were clinically otherwise identical except one had been vaccinated and the other not, I would 100% support him/her choosing the vaccinated patient. The other made a choice, and choices have consequences. You run the risk of adverse events from vaccination if you take it, you run the risk of other adverse events if you don't.
		
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Yes, I'm not disagreeing with that although it's not the point I'm making.  Do you agree or not that not being vaccinated should automatically bar you from treatment.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Ignorance is not an insult, a fair few people disagree with your comment, including me.

If you think taxation is a deterrent to an addict, then I don't know what to say! But the facts are smokers create a financial surplus of billions each year.
		
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A fair few people disagree with yours, including me.  You suggest because of the tax raised by smoking it's OK.  Unbelievable.
You've probably not experienced one of your close family die of lung cancer.  

Edit:
I made the point that smokers should be treated in hospital and so should someone with Covid who is unvaxxed.  Although you seem to want to argue what exactly are you disagreeing with.


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## Ethan (Dec 3, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I'm not disagreeing with that although it's not the point I'm making.  Do you agree or not that not being vaccinated should automatically bar you from treatment.
		
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No, it shouldn't automatically bar you from treatment, but it should be made clear to people that the choice they make is not simply limited to the injection in the arm, and there are implications, for example prioritisation, and certainly, in my opinion, in their ability to expose others to danger, hence vaccine passports.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No, it shouldn't automatically bar you from treatment, but it should be made clear to people that the choice they make is not simply limited to the injection in the arm, and there are implications, for example prioritisation, and certainly, in my opinion, in their ability to expose others to danger, hence vaccine passports.
		
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That’s a very slippery slope!


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## Ethan (Dec 3, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			That’s a very slippery slope!
		
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Not as slippery if the implications of choices are made explicit.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Not as slippery if the implications of choices are made explicit.
		
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Like the dangers of smoking and drinking? Then what?


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## Ser Shankalot (Dec 3, 2021)

If you're a regular smoker, any life insurance premiums are substantially higher and you pay more in tax and you are blocked from smoking in areas where it may adversely affect others. You have the choice to smoke, but it comes with consequences. Nobody is forcing you one way or another.

However those who deny the vaccine just from a free choice perspective, want free choices but with no consequences. And it's not about them getting sick (their choice), but adversely affecting the health of others. I wish I could have a life like that.


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## Ethan (Dec 3, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Like the dangers of smoking and drinking? Then what?
		
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I said my piece on those above.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2021)

Ethan said:



			No, it shouldn't automatically bar you from treatment, but it should be made clear to people that the choice they make is not simply limited to the injection in the arm, and there are implications, for example prioritisation, and certainly, in my opinion, in their ability to expose others to danger, hence vaccine passports.
		
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I fully agree


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 3, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps not in a viral infection way…but in other ways an addiction can be, and often is, ‘contagious’…especially within the addicts family…and most certainly the damage and illness an addict suffers is contagious in that it is very often reflected by physical and mental damage in those close to the addict.

The best, often only, way to help those damaged by the addict is to help and treat the addict.  Abandon the addict and you abandon a whole circle of family and friends.
		
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At the end of the day, the only treatment for the addict that works is for him/her to STOP.  End of.
How many families are wrecked when some awful illness that no one can do anything about strikes some poor bugger who hasn't done , or isn't doing , anything to cause or promote it?    Ask that patient to stop doing some voluntary action to cure it and they would in a flash.
Willpower ,for crying out loud!


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## DanFST (Dec 3, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Willpower ,for crying out loud!
		
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I'd read Chasing the scream by Johann Hari. 

Addiction is a chronic illness, shall we tell depressed people to just stop being sad?


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## Leftitshort (Dec 3, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'd read Chasing the scream by Johann Hari.

Addiction is a chronic illness, shall we tell depressed people to just stop being sad?
		
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Shows a wilful lack of understanding. Willpower ffs


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## AmandaJR (Dec 3, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'd read Chasing the scream by Johann Hari.

*Addiction is a chronic illness*, shall we tell depressed people to just stop being sad?
		
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My nephew, who lives in the US, is currently in ICU and will not survive according to the doctors. A long term alcohol addiction has badly affected his liver and heart and his health has been poor for a good few years. He recently fell whilst drunk and suffered a head injury which, alongside his other complex health issues, is not survivable. It's a matter of time but his family can't bring themselves to give up on him yet. Somehow, someway a vibrant, handsome, extremely funny and smart guy lost his way and no amount of times in rehab got him back on track. So sad and such a waste but, if he could, of course he would have stopped...addiction is a terrible thing.


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## GB72 (Dec 3, 2021)

Certainly looking like the use of covid passports (that I generally support) is on less solid footing. One source of the Omicron spread in Scotland appears to be a Steps concert in Glasgow which would have required a vaccination passport. I know the vaccination does not stop the spread but on a PR standpoint, to have one the main sources of infection being an event requiring a passport is not ideal.


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Certainly looking like the use of covid passports (that I generally support) is on less solid footing. One source of the Omicron spread in Scotland appears to be a Steps concert in Glasgow which would have required a vaccination passport. I know the vaccination does not stop the spread but on a PR standpoint, to have one the main sources of infection being an event requiring a passport is not ideal.
		
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Tragedy.


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## GB72 (Dec 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Tragedy.
		
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Post of the day so far


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## D-S (Dec 3, 2021)

Excuse my ignorance but when anti-vaxxers or the ‘vaccine hesitant’ are admitted to hospital with COVID are they also anti or hesitant about new anti virals or other newer treatments or do they just lie there and assume their natural immunity will sort it out? Where is the line that they won’t cross?


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## drdel (Dec 3, 2021)

What booking centre is that: asking for a friend


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## Foxholer (Dec 3, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Certainly looking like the use of covid passports (that I generally support) is on less solid footing. One source of the Omicron spread in Scotland appears to be a Steps concert in Glasgow which would have required a vaccination passport. I know the vaccination does not stop the spread but on a PR standpoint, to have one the main sources of infection being an event requiring a passport is not ideal.
		
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To me, it's something of a 'no win' situation for those encouraging vaccination. Any incident like the above is seen as a 'victory' for anti-vax-ers.
But the REAL, but rather unquantifiable, response should be... Just imagine how many cases there would have been without the vax-passports!!
Realistically, it's a case of 'limiting' the spread, not necessarily preventing it.


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

Worth a go I suppose…..

_“An Italian man who was anxious to obtain a Covid passport but did not want to have the actual jab tried to trick medics by turning up at a vaccination centre with a false arm made of silicon.

The man, who like a small but vocal minority of Italians objected to the vaccination, arrived at the medical centre in the town of Biella in Piedmont on Thursday night.

He had been booked in for his first dose of the vaccination, making him a laggard in comparison with the 85 per cent of Italians aged over 12 who have had two jabs and are now looking to obtain their booster jabs.

But when the man, aged in his fifties, rolled up his sleeve, the medical orderly began to suspect that all was not as it should have been.

The skin of his arm seemed unusually smooth and a slightly strange colour.

The medic quickly realised that the arm was a fake limb, albeit a sophisticated one made of silicon.

The man appealed to the medic to turn a blind eye and give him a jab in his fake limb.

She refused. He was reported to police and magistrates and now faces prosecution.”_


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## road2ruin (Dec 3, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			To me, it's something of a 'no win' situation for those encouraging vaccination. Any incident like the above is seen as a 'victory' for anti-vax-ers.
But the REAL, but rather unquantifiable, response should be... Just imagine how many cases there would have been without the vax-passports!!
Realistically, it's a case of 'limiting' the spread, not necessarily preventing it.
		
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The updated reporting on this one is that the venue didn’t do any sort of checks for vaccine passports etc so they’ve absolutely no idea what the status was of anyone in the place.


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## Foxholer (Dec 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The updated reporting on this one is that the venue didn’t do any sort of checks for vaccine passports etc so they’ve absolutely no idea what the status was of anyone in the place.
		
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Not good!
But , perhaps, an understandable 'on the fly' response to a situation that was likely to get 'out of control'.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 3, 2021)

D-S said:



			Excuse my ignorance but when anti-vaxxers or the ‘vaccine hesitant’ are admitted to hospital with COVID are they also anti or hesitant about new anti virals or other newer treatments or do they just lie there and assume their natural immunity will sort it out? Where is the line that they won’t cross?
		
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When they're admitted to hospital they tend to be ex-anti-vaxxers.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 3, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The updated reporting on this one is that the venue didn’t do any sort of checks for vaccine passports etc so they’ve absolutely no idea what the status was of anyone in the place.
		
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Realistically, how many if any of these major events actually carry out proper checks?

When I go to football, we file in simply holding up our phones with the NHS page with the QR code on it.  I'm double jabbed & boosted, but because of issues with getting the app to play as we go in, I take a screen shot of it, save it to a photo album and then just display the photo.  There is no way they can read a name on it, nor do they know the name of the person holding the phone.

I wonder how many of those displaying vaccine passports have had a photo sent to them by a friend?


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## SaintHacker (Dec 3, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Realistically, how many if any of these major events actually carry out proper checks?

When I go to football, we file in simply holding up our phones with the NHS page with the QR code on it.  I'm double jabbed & boosted, but because of issues with getting the app to play as we go in, I take a screen shot of it, save it to a photo album and then just display the photo.  There is no way they can read a name on it, nor do they know the name of the person holding the phone.

I wonder how many of those displaying vaccine passports have had a photo sent to them by a friend?
		
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The Grand Prix, a supposed 'test event', was a joke. I was expecting to have the code scanned and show some ID to prove it was mine, but nothing of the sort, the proofs were given a cursory glance at the most


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## Old Skier (Dec 3, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Post of the day so far
		
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Or saddest for being in the know.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 4, 2021)

I've been to the theatre twice where a passport was supposed to be shown, one West End, one Newcastle. People with nothing were stopped and required to take a lateral flow test but no one actually checked my phone. We basically flashed a QR code and walked on. It would have been an interesting test for 'mystery shoppers ' to flash any old QR code, from a shop etc to see if anyone stopped them. From my own experience I doubt they would have. If they don't actually scan the code, how can they know what it relates to?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 4, 2021)

D-S said:



			Excuse my ignorance but when anti-vaxxers or the ‘vaccine hesitant’ are admitted to hospital with COVID are they also anti or hesitant about new anti virals or other newer treatments or do they just lie there and assume their natural immunity will sort it out? Where is the line that they won’t cross?
		
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Probably when they are unconscious and family have to make decisions ☹️


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2021)

In Sweden they scan your QR code and check your ID.
Just waiting for the full details of this evenings sound byte… Personally I would like all the airport staff to be confirmed clear by an independent test house as well and they can show me their paperwork before they touch any of my stuff. 
I will look for a Lat flow test, but I could get more exposure by looking for one! Utterly mad, I have my 2nd day PCR test booked, my car is in the car park ready , I have no need to go near anyone , I will have a mask on and I can put gloves on.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 4, 2021)

Is this government trying to bankrupt me? Currently in Spain just over two weeks into a three week stay. Before we left, we spent £40 booking our Day 2 lateral flow tests. After we got here, they changed the rules  - it has to be PCR test. So we spent another £140 on booking our PCR tests. Now they change the rules again and we now have to have tests before we depart for home? So somehow got to find a somewhere to get a test out here? I know we had to take our chances by coming out in the first place, but it's darn annoying nonetheless.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 4, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Is this government trying to bankrupt me? Currently in Spain just over two weeks into a three week stay. Before we left, we spent £40 booking our Day 2 lateral flow tests. After we got here, they changed the rules  - it has to be PCR test. So we spent another £140 on booking our PCR tests. Now they change the rules again and we now have to have tests before we depart for home? So somehow got to find a somewhere to get a test out here? I know we had to take our chances by coming out in the first place, but it's darn annoying nonetheless.
		
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I guess they had to step up a notch due to the new varient


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Is this government trying to bankrupt me? Currently in Spain just over two weeks into a three week stay. Before we left, we spent £40 booking our Day 2 lateral flow tests. After we got here, they changed the rules  - it has to be PCR test. So we spent another £140 on booking our PCR tests. Now they change the rules again and we now have to have tests before we depart for home? So somehow got to find a somewhere to get a test out here? I know we had to take our chances by coming out in the first place, but it's darn annoying nonetheless.
		
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We get lat flow test from the NHS for free .. if they accept those get a relative to dhl them out will be cheaper than this current farce. 
The testing should all be for free , currently the costs are too high and vary too greatly. The quarantine hotel is rubbish if your going directly back to your own abode. I really don’t have any confidence in their systems, they should be minimising contact their end ..


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## backwoodsman (Dec 4, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			We get lat flow test from the NHS for free .. if they accept those get a relative to dhl them out will be cheaper than this current farce.
The testing should all be for free , currently the costs are too high and vary too greatly. The quarantine hotel is rubbish if your going directly back to your own abode. I really don’t any confidence in their systems, they should be minimising contact their end ..
		
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You can't use the free one's for travel  - you have to have them from a certified provider (I  guess so that you have someone certify the results - rather than me concocting up my own result). I know the Gov't have had to up their game  - but it's still bloomin' annoying. 

And thanks, Hobbit, for the advice in the PM.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			You can't use the free one's for travel  - you have to have them from a certified provider (I  guess so that you have someone certify the results - rather than me concocting up my own result). I know the Gov't have had to up their game  - but it's still bloomin' annoying.

And thanks, Hobbit, for the advice in the PM. 

Click to expand...

Try prenetics they have safe to fly lat flow tests at £20 just wondering if they will ship abroad though


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## backwoodsman (Dec 4, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Try prenetics they have safe to fly lat flow tests at £20 just wondering if they will ship abroad though
		
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We're waiting for the full Gov't advice to be published - so we know precisely what's required of us. Can then sort ourselves out. The news only broke in the last hour or so.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			We're waiting for the full Gov't advice to be published - so we know precisely what's required of us. Can then sort ourselves out. The news only broke in the last hour or so.
		
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Same here I am due to return this Friday from Sweden. It’s lower numbers here but they are very relaxed. If I can get something sorted I will, they offer tests at the airport but not sure how early I have to be to get one or can I just get one at a pharmacy etc .. it all makes sense if your in a hotspot but when your not , it’s just cash collection


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## BiMGuy (Dec 4, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			We get lat flow test from the NHS for free .. if they accept those get a relative to dhl them out will be cheaper than this current farce.
The testing should all be for free , currently the costs are too high and vary too greatly. The quarantine hotel is rubbish if your going directly back to your own abode. I really don’t have any confidence in their systems, they should be minimising contact their end ..
		
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Why should the tax payer pay for people to have “free” tests when they choose to go on holiday?


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## Hobbit (Dec 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why should the tax payer pay for people to have “free” tests when they choose to go on holiday?
		
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Its in the govt’s best interest to incentivise people to get tested, potentially limiting the number of people that end up in hospital and thus being a greater burden on the state.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why should the tax payer pay for people to have “free” tests when they choose to go on holiday?
		
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Assuming the person going on holiday is a tax payer then whats the problem with them using something they're paying for?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Why should the tax payer pay for people to have “free” tests when they choose to go on holiday?
		
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I am out on business … I don’t do holidays, abroad.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 4, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			I am out on business … I don’t do holidays, abroad.
		
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 I’m sure you’ll be able to put them on expenses.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 4, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			Assuming the person going on holiday is a tax payer then whats the problem with them using something they're paying for?
		
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Fair point


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## harpo_72 (Dec 4, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I’m sure you’ll be able to put them on expenses.
		
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Yup, and there is a tax inefficiency there. To be honest I want easy access and I am not quite sure what the difference is between a free NHS lat flow and a fit to fly kit that is a lat flow ? Apart from £20 …


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## drdel (Dec 4, 2021)

It's certainly turned us into a load of whinging 'poms' as the Aussies would say.

There's no logical argument against taking the proper actions: get jabbed, keep a sensible distance and in busy places wear a mask.

If you travel for pleasure it's you risk and your costs, suck it up or don't go. If you must travel for business follow professional actions as the business should have procedures and mechanisms to meet any costs if it takes a bit longer than normal so what: it's a pandemic.


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## D-S (Dec 5, 2021)

drdel said:



			It's certainly turned us into a load of whinging 'poms' as the Aussies would say.

There's no logical argument against taking the proper actions: get jabbed, keep a sensible distance and in busy places wear a mask.

If you travel for pleasure it's you risk and your costs, suck it up or don't go. If you must travel for business follow professional actions as the business should have procedures and mechanisms to meet any costs if it takes a bit longer than normal so what: it's a pandemic.
		
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No chance to ‘whinge’ in Aus now though, they’ve turned it into some sort of police state.


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			No chance to ‘whinge’ in Aus now though, they’ve turned it into some sort of police state.
		
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Aus total cases per million *8,355*. UK........*152,370*

Aus total deaths per million *79*. UK........*2,128*

Maybe they have the right idea


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## Ethan (Dec 5, 2021)

DanFST said:



			I'd read Chasing the scream by Johann Hari.

Addiction is a chronic illness, shall we tell depressed people to just stop being sad?
		
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Hari is making a bit of a career out of this stuff on depression. It is very rare for someone, speaking from their very personal and individual circumstances, to identify insights that extend far beyond themselves, and sometimes not even that, and especially not if it involves theorising about the implications of brain biochemistry and the effectiveness of anti-depressants, which is rather complicated. Hari does not seem to be an exception to this generalisation. His crusade may well be well-intentioned, or it may be more opportunistic, who knows? 

There are a range of treatments available in depression, and some essentially do tell (or rather help) people to stop just being sad, although that is more at the soft end of depression. Hari may never have experienced, or seen, hard-core catatonic depression, but that takes a bit more input and needs strong medicines and sometimes volts. 

In my opinion, there is always a degree of choice and behaviour with addictions. Some people are better able to control their behaviour than others, but simply blaming bad behaviour on "the disease" is a bit of a cop-out and there needs to be an element of personal responsibility, whether that is alcohol, hard drugs or a diabetic eating too many pies.


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## Robster59 (Dec 5, 2021)

I've just had my booster. Feeling fine so far, just a slightly sore arm. It was quite quiet when I went. I expected it to be busier. 
Looking at the previous discussions on non vaccinated people going into hospital with COVID, these people by their own stupidity, gullibility, arrogance, selfishness, etc. are taking up spaces which should be used by people with critical illnesses. If I was s doctor or nurse in this situation, I'd be feeling angry and frustrated with these idiots. If they had taken the vaccination, it's a lot less likely that they would be taking you these valuable beds.


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## Ethan (Dec 5, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			I've just had my booster. Feeling fine so far, just a slightly sore arm. It was quite quiet when I went. I expected it to be busier.
Looking at the previous discussions on non vaccinated people going into hospital with COVID, these people by their own stupidity, gullibility, arrogance, selfishness, etc. are taking up spaces which should be used by people with critical illnesses.* If I was s doctor or nurse in this situation, I'd be feeling angry and frustrated with these idiots*. If they had taken the vaccination, it's a lot less likely that they would be taking you these valuable beds.
		
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They are!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2021)

Just looked through my options now, Prenetics don’t ship outside the U.K., so it is a case of buying a couple of tests and packing them. Total Swedish cost is £140 + Uber’s to get there … I am sure this is not the right thing to say, but it doesn’t feel like it’s about health, just a select few making a huge profit .


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## Old Skier (Dec 5, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			Just looked through my options now, Prenetics don’t ship outside the U.K., so it is a case of buying a couple of tests and packing them. Total Swedish cost is £140 + Uber’s to get there … I am sure this is not the right thing to say, but it doesn’t feel like it’s about health, just a select few making a huge profit .
		
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Not sure it’s about profit, more to do with not really knowing what is best so go with the easy option of public opinion. Waiting for Austria to decide what way they are going to jump.


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## D-S (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Aus total cases per million *8,355*. UK........*152,370*

Aus total deaths per million *79*. UK........*2,128*

Maybe they have the right idea

Click to expand...

Fair point although Melbourne have had 262 days of lockdown and tough restrictions in between together with very strict travel bans. Difficult choices.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Aus total cases per million *8,355*. UK........*152,370*

Aus total deaths per million *79*. UK........*2,128*

Maybe they have the right idea

Click to expand...

Surely the risk of infection must be associated to population density so it makes a direct comparison flawed.


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely the risk of infection must be associated to population density so it makes a direct comparison flawed.
		
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I guess Australia doesn't have any cities or towns and thousands of acres of nothing.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 5, 2021)

Chair of the SA Medical Association “Stunned” by the Extreme British reaction….. Gaswhatnow??


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I guess Australia doesn't have any cities or towns and thousands of acres of nothing.
		
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No need for sarcasm, my point was a genuine question.
England for example has one of the highest population densities in the world and much higher than Australia, this must be an influence on the probable infection rate.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 5, 2021)

"The simple truth is we don't know yet anywhere near enough"...

Says enough for me that we act with caution first and relax once we know more, if that's appropriate.


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## bobmac (Dec 5, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No need for sarcasm, my point was a genuine question.
England for example has one of the highest population densities in the world and much higher than Australia, this must be an influence on the probable infection rate.
		
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I'll stop being sarcastic when you stop patronising me.
The map below shows the vast majority of population are in a very small area


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2021)

So from the article posted above…Coetzee considers that ‘…Britain is merely hyping up the alarm about this variant unnecessarily‘.  One might then wonder why this country (I.e. the government guided by experts) would do that…but to pass conjecture on that here…nope - besides who is to know…it would simply be conjecture.  However I am, despite my instinct that extreme caution and risk mitigation are essential, beginning to wonder.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:





D-S said:



			No chance to ‘whinge’ in Aus now though, they’ve turned it into some sort of police state.
		
Click to expand...

Aus total cases per million *8,355*. UK........*152,370*

Aus total deaths per million *79*. UK........*2,128*

Maybe they have the right idea

Click to expand...

Ah! The old 'Lies, damned lies and statistics' issue! Check the graphs out, not just the total numbers. 
Since mid August, Australia has had a very steep increase in rate of cases detected - and subsequent deaths. That's the reason they have imposed harsher 'rules'.


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## D-S (Dec 5, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Ah! The old 'Lies, damned lies and statistics' issue! Check the graphs out, not just the total numbers.
Since mid August, Australia has had a very steep increase in rate of cases detected - and subsequent deaths. That's the reason they have imposed harsher 'rules'.
		
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I think you'll find the 'harsher rules' were imposed well before August - hence 262 days of lockdown, that over 8 months and August was only 3 months ago. Also the travel rules have been in place for well over 18 months.
Also Melbourne ended their lockdown on October 21st.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 5, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'll stop being sarcastic when you stop patronising me.
The map below shows the vast majority of population are in a very small area

View attachment 39811

Click to expand...

Patronising, when did I do that?
I'm still suggesting the population density in the major Australian populated areas are lower than England. Of course I'm not suggesting you can compare the population per sq mile nationally.

Can we please either have a sensible discussion on this or drop it.


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## Foxholer (Dec 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			I think you'll find the 'harsher rules' were imposed well before August - hence 262 days of lockdown, that over 8 months and August was only 3 months ago. Also the travel rules have been in place for well over 18 months.
Also Melbourne ended their lockdown on October 21st.
		
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Indeed, I mistook the meaning of your earlier post.
I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been a further lockdown imposed (in any/all larger cities). Their vaccination percentage (part of the reason lockdown was lifted) doesn't seem to be as high as UK's - though not fully 'date-comparable'.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			"The simple truth is we don't know yet anywhere near enough"...

Says enough for me that we act with caution first and relax once we know more, if that's appropriate.
		
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And let’s be honest we have been slack previously…


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## AmandaJR (Dec 5, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			And let’s be honest we have been slack previously…
		
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Damned if you do...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Damned if you do...
		
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To be fair, the writing was on the wall and clear and plain to see that the first round needed a swift reaction. The were slow on the delta variant but the jab program saved it.. and they got that stepped up, and which is positive.
I think the reaction to this needs to be hard and fast. I get it that it’s highly contagious and our numbers are increasing massively, but they should now watch the hospital admissions and put the no vaccine emissions in the analysis as stand alone data .. it might be persuasive.
If this variant is mild then hopefully we can just open back up and see if it has a positive herd immunity affect ..


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## AmandaJR (Dec 5, 2021)

harpo_72 said:



			To be fair, the writing was on the wall and clear and plain to see that the first round needed a swift reaction. The were slow on the delta variant but the jab program saved it.. and they got that stepped up, and which is positive.
I think the reaction to this needs to be hard and fast. I get it that it’s highly contagious and our numbers are increasing massively, but they should now watch the hospital admissions and *put the no vaccine emissions in the analysis as stand alone data* .. it might be persuasive.
If this variant is mild then hopefully we can just open back up and see if it has a positive herd immunity affect ..
		
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Admissions, in ICU and deaths...might as you say be persuasive!


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## 4LEX (Dec 5, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Chair of the SA Medical Association “Stunned” by the Extreme British reaction….. Gaswhatnow??

View attachment 39810

Click to expand...

Better safe than sorry. Her comments strike of clear government policy from South Africa.

Britian has shut a few flights down and asked people to wear masks for a couple of weeks, nothing major. Football grounds are full, pubs, clubs and Christmas markets are packed. She is full of rubbish. If anything the government have learned from their mistakes and should be applauded.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 5, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			Admissions, in ICU and deaths...might as you say be persuasive!
		
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Yup I think so I am intrigued as to who has the “natural resilience “


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So from the article posted above…Coetzee considers that ‘…Britain is merely hyping up the alarm about this variant unnecessarily‘.  One might then wonder why this country (I.e. the government guided by experts) would do that…but to pass conjecture on that here…nope - besides who is to know…it would simply be conjecture.  However I am, despite my instinct that extreme caution and risk mitigation are essential, beginning to wonder.
		
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Well, what a different reaction from Amanda and from you. 
One reasoned and going on the facts, the other (yours) laced with suspicion and "wonder"  Wondering of what nature, ( I wonder?) 😀


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## Ethan (Dec 5, 2021)

The problem with acting early and fast is that if there are low cases and deaths, instead of congratulating whoever it is for successfully achieving their intended outcome, people criticise them for unnecessary over-reaction. Such is the nature of preventative actions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Better safe than sorry. Her comments strike of clear government policy from South Africa.

Britian has shut a few flights down and asked people to wear masks for a couple of weeks, nothing major. Football grounds are full, pubs, clubs and Christmas markets are packed. She is full of rubbish.* If anything the government have learned from their mistakes *and should be applauded.
		
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Indeed - sometimes it is worthwhile actually listening to the Captain Hindsights of this world and acting according to the lessons they provide.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, what a different reaction from Amanda and from you.
One reasoned and going on the facts, the other (yours) laced with suspicion and "wonder"  Wondering of what nature, ( I wonder?) 😀
		
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I simply considered that if Coetzee is correct in what she says then the question of why the government would over-hype the risk of the new variant is an obvious one. A question for her I guess. 

And as I said, I am instinctively risk averse and so more persuaded that the current course of action is appropriate, though I’d actually prefer it to be more proscriptive than it is in respect of mask wearing when and where. 

That said, when considering any risk mitigation you have to look at the costs of the mitigations; the residual risk if mitigation’s are applied; and costs associated with the contingencies if mitigations are not applied and the risk materialises.   The current mitigations are low cost and if adopted and ‘policed’ strictly would probably be sufficient to dampen exponential growth of infection, but we have to understand the trigger point at which more severe mitigations would have to be applied.  I don’t think we have that at the moment.  Simply saying ‘Wait and see’ is not listening to Captain Hindsight as we should.


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## Ethan (Dec 6, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply considered that if Coetzee is correct in what she says then the question of why the government would over-hype the risk of the new variant is an obvious one. A question for her I guess.

And as I said, I am instinctively risk averse and so more persuaded that the current course of action is appropriate, though I’d actually prefer it to be more proscriptive than it is in respect of mask wearing when and where.

That said, when considering any risk mitigation you have to look at the costs of the mitigations; the residual risk if mitigation’s are applied; and costs associated with the contingencies if mitigations are not applied and the risk materialises.   The current mitigations are low cost and if adopted and ‘policed’ strictly would probably be sufficient to dampen exponential growth of infection, but we have to understand the trigger point at which more severe mitigations would have to be applied.  I don’t think we have that at the moment.  Simply saying ‘Wait and see’ is not listening to Captain Hindsight as we should.
		
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Coetzee might be right, she might be wrong. Either way, it is untenable to set an international public health policy based on her opinion. 

For a start, she doesn't know if the cases she has seen are representative of the whole spectrum of disease. For all she knows there are people dead at home with it. Second, greater transmissbility, even with on-average milder disease is a greater public health issue. Also, the character of the disease could be different - milder initial reparatory epidote but more damaging secondary inflammatory episode. 

The only sensible strategy is to act cautiously, even over-cautiously, then amend the strategy as more information emerges. That could mean relaxing restrictions or tightening them. We need to accept that these rapid responses will need to be put in place. There will be more of these. 

Does anyone think that if the Govt were pretty relaxed and it turned out this was a bad one, a defence of saying that a South African doctor that nobody in the UK had previously heard of said it was OK on Andrew Marr's TV show would be considered adequate?


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## GB72 (Dec 6, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Coetzee might be right, she might be wrong. Either way, it is untenable to set an international public health policy based on her opinion.

For a start, she doesn't know if the cases she has seen are representative of the whole spectrum of disease. For all she knows there are people dead at home with it. Second, greater transmissbility, even with on-average milder disease is a greater public health issue. Also, the character of the disease could be different - milder initial reparatory epidote but more damaging secondary inflammatory episode.

The only sensible strategy is to act cautiously, even over-cautiously, then amend the strategy as more information emerges. That could mean relaxing restrictions or tightening them. We need to accept that these rapid responses will need to be put in place. There will be more of these.

Does anyone think that if the Govt were pretty relaxed and it turned out this was a bad one, a defence of saying that a South African doctor that nobody in the UK had previously heard of said it was OK on Andrew Marr's TV show would be considered adequate?
		
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The response to travel restrictions has been strangely agressive from both SA and the WHO. This struck me as strange bearing in mind that this has been the response to any new variant and the country that detects it first has always been hit hardest by any new measures (we had it with the Kent variant). The most despicable terminololgy I heard was it being called 'travel apartheid' and that was buy someone in an official role (cannot recall if it was SA or WHO who made that comment). I am at a loss to understand the response to what has been a sensible, global measure.


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## bobmac (Dec 6, 2021)

Damned if you react quickly, damned if you don't


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Damned if you react quickly, damned if you don't
		
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What does Captain Hindsight tell us to do as this isn’t the first time given the experience of the last 2yrs.  I think it tells as that it is _probably_ best to react quickly…for once the evidence of exponential growth of an infection that hospitalises is manifest by _significantly_ increased hospitalisations, then experience tells us we have a problem on our hands.

I might suggest that being damned whatever you do will likely be less equally balanced if clarity of rationale and strong leadership are provided.


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## drdel (Dec 6, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Damned if you react quickly, damned if you don't
		
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The talking heads on TV etc will 'dine out' and bore us endlessly with interviews of some idiot who opposes whatever is decided


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2021)

had the pfizer booster yesterday - comimg on top of double AZ. The injection was a chunk more noticeable than the last 2, which i barely felt! My arm is numb and sore, something that never happened with the last 2. But not feeling rough


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## Jimaroid (Dec 7, 2021)

I also had my Pfizer booster yesterday. It made me drowsy after a couple of hours but initially not very noticeable until this morning where I have a horrendous headache and feeling dizzy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2021)

Had the Pfizer booster this morning 👍 will take the side affects over Covid


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

Me and Missis T had the Pfizer booster on Sunday. Me I was not to bad at all bit of an headache and that’s it. Missis T felt tired, joints ached yesterday and slept like a log.  
Me finks it is a very small price to pay for being covered.

That aside, did anyone see the woman on telly last night give her talk about the vaccine etc. it looked quite good but I was nik nacked so went to bed.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 7, 2021)

Jimaroid said:



			I also had my Pfizer booster yesterday. It made me drowsy after a couple of hours but initially not very noticeable until this morning where I have a horrendous headache and feeling dizzy.
		
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i am also feeeling worse Jim. Fuzzy head and pretty week


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## Robster59 (Dec 7, 2021)

I had my Pfizer booster on Saturday after AZ for jabs 1 & 2.  The only effect I felt was a slight soreness on my Covid jab arm when I lay on it in bed the first night, but after that I've felt fine.  I had a headache on Sunday morning but that could also be an effect of the beer on the Saturday night. Othwesire no ill effects.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 7, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i am also feeeling worse Jim. Fuzzy head and pretty week
		
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Take less anaesthetic with it Paul...


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## Ethan (Dec 7, 2021)

Good article by Gabriel Scally. The public health principles for tackling an epidemic/pandemic (apart from vaccination) have been known for at least 500 years, and it isn't them or the economy. We should do them better.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 7, 2021)

Prof Dame Sarah Gilbert’s Dimbleby Lecture (broadcast BBC last night) was very informative and should be required viewing for all those who question the ‘speed of development’ and ‘risks’ associated with the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 7, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Prof Dame Sarah Gilbert’s Dimbleby Lecture (broadcast BBC last night) was very informative and should be required viewing for all those who question the ‘speed of development’ and ‘risks’ associated with the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine.
		
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I think this was the answer I was looking for in post 22,631 👍

Cheers SILH


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2021)

Still getting more and more patients in. Hoping it's a minor spike and not something more serious. The frustrating aspect is we have an 85-15% ratio of unvaccinated vs vaccinated. I can't understand any logical answer as to why even now you wouldn't get a first jab given all the stuff flying around with the new variant


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## williamalex1 (Dec 7, 2021)

This is the kind of factual information that should be highly publicised , not the crap from so called Facebook experts .
Cheers Martin


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2021)

Managed to find a test in the city, fingers crossed it’s negative… if I have got it I feel fine though. But the fall out if I get a positive result is my stay is prolonged by 10 days and I have no accommodation, currently, so I will have to act fast and get some. Then my wife has another 10 days on her own looking after the boy. The school is infested with it … this is all a bit silly


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 8, 2021)

Only posting this for info in case someone else has similar effects and is worrying. I had the Pfizer booster last Wednesday, developed a fever that evening, but gone next morning. Aside from that, have had a gnawing pain in my stomach since Wednesday evening. It doesn't really hurt, more of a discomfort, and very reminiscent of the symptoms I got when prescribed Naproxen a while back. Eventually spoke with 111 over the weekend as it is a listed side effect and advice is to call. They said speak to doc, which I did on Monday, apparently they've had a few people calling with similar symptoms after the booster. She's prescribed the same ant-acid I was given with the Naproxen. Yesterday was a much better day, didn't notice it at all, so hopefully it's a short term effect.


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			Only posting this for info in case someone else has similar effects and is worrying. I had the Pfizer booster last Wednesday, developed a fever that evening, but gone next morning. Aside from that, have had a gnawing pain in my stomach since Wednesday evening. It doesn't really hurt, more of a discomfort, and very reminiscent of the symptoms I got when prescribed Naproxen a while back. Eventually spoke with 111 over the weekend as it is a listed side effect and advice is to call. They said speak to doc, which I did on Monday, apparently they've had a few people calling with similar symptoms after the booster. She's prescribed the same ant-acid I was given with the Naproxen. Yesterday was a much better day, didn't notice it at all, so hopefully it's a short term effect.
		
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The vaccine activates your immune system, and that includes a burst of inflammatory substances which are part of the immune response, so the fever, chills, gut ache and other side effects are really part of the main effect. Shouldn't last too long, and well worth it.


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## GG26 (Dec 8, 2021)

Had the Moderna booster on Monday after AZ for the first two.  Arm has become very sore (was after the first AZ) and feeling slightly run down, so not too bad.


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

GG26 said:



			Had the Moderna booster on Monday after AZ for the first two.  Arm has become very sore (was after the first AZ) and feeling slightly run down, so not too bad.
		
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I note that a few people here have reported side effects after getting an mRNA after previous AZ. It may be that the mRNA gives previous AZ recipients a bigger immune kick and the side effects may be proportional. Anecdotal observations in the doctors social media site that I also frequent suggests that a smaller response is usually seen in people who get Moderna after Pfizer (as I did and most NHS staff did).


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2021)

I advise everyone to opt for Pfizer if possible (especially as my wife's share options are looking very healthy at the moment 😉) 😂


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I advise everyone to opt for Pfizer if possible (especially as my wife's share options are looking very healthy at the moment 😉) 😂
		
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Both mRNA boosters are very effective. Data suggest Moderna may be slightly more effective, though. I agree that Pfizer shares are healthy, with a good diverse pipeline of products, but Moderna stock looks a bit overvalued to me right now. Their market cap is currently 114 Billion dollars, which makes them more valuable than GSK, who have broad and diverse product line and development pipelines. I think that is an unsustainable position with only one major product line. A safety issue with their vax, a variant with significant vaccine escape, or another technology with better clinical benefits and that value will get a kicking.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2021)

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/covi...rules-this-week-sky-news-understands-12489880

Seems sensible


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 8, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://news.sky.com/story/amp/covi...rules-this-week-sky-news-understands-12489880

Seems sensible
		
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Possibly, but we aren't allowed to discuss the likely reason behind this move. 😉


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Dec 8, 2021)

I'm pretty sure that I may have anwered this a few times before, but it keeps popping up.

Two summers ago,  it wiped out my entire season.
I couldn't be bothered to play with the clubhouse closed and all of the covid protocols in place.
You may recall that back then, people still thought it could be surface transmitted.

This past summer, the entire membership was jabbed and it was business as usual.
With all of these variant scares, however, who knows about next summer?


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Possibly, but we aren't allowed to discuss the likely reason behind this move. 😉
		
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I think it may involve a deceased feline.


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## GB72 (Dec 8, 2021)

Selfishly hoping for a quick introduction of Plan B. First realy time out of my village on Saturday to go to a gig and I would feel so much better if everyone had to have a vaccine passport.


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## IanM (Dec 8, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Possibly, but we aren't allowed to discuss the likely reason behind this move. 😉
		
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I think discussion of increased instances of the new variant is ok


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## jim8flog (Dec 8, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			You may recall that back then, people still thought it could be surface transmitted.
		
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My understanding is that it still can.

Many viruses can. One of the things that still gets highlighted here is wash your hands regularly and you can still find hand sanitising gels wherever you go.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 8, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://news.sky.com/story/amp/covi...rules-this-week-sky-news-understands-12489880

Seems sensible
		
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It does, my only worry is how many will comply given whats been discussed all day...


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I'm pretty sure that I may have anwered this a few times before, but it keeps popping up.

Two summers ago,  it wiped out my entire season.
I couldn't be bothered to play with the clubhouse closed and all of the covid protocols in place.
You may recall that back then, people still thought *it could be surface transmitted*.

This past summer, the entire membership was jabbed and it was business as usual.
With all of these variant scares, however, who knows about next summer?
		
Click to expand...

It probably can, but the "dose", aka viral load, is unlikely to be large unless someone has coughed a large deposit quite recently and you rub your nose after handling it. Surface transmission is unlikely to be a major factor in outbreaks, in my opinion. Even less of a factor outdoors, so flags on greens and bunker rakes really not a risk.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It probably can, but the "dose", aka viral load, is unlikely to be large unless someone has coughed a large deposit quite recently and you rub your nose after handling it. Surface transmission is unlikely to be a major factor in outbreaks, in my opinion. Even less of a factor outdoors, so flags on greens and bunker rakes really not a risk.
		
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That's an interesting one. In my cycling instructor role I have to check bikes for road worthiness before we start the course. The kids will have brought their bikes out and laid them down (outside). They are then moved to one side for some verbal instructions whilst one of us checks the bikes. We've been "reminded" this week of the Covid requirements which mean sanitising hands before and after checking every bike. Or, if we wear gloves (which I do as often they're filthy) then they need to be changed for every bike! It's going to take ages to do the checks on that basis...


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			It does, my only worry is how many will comply given whats been discussed all day...
		
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I don't think Plan B really impacts people, the masks are already in place and the main one would be the WFH which I suspect most are doing most of the time anyway.

I think the thing that the public would not follow would be if they try and limit people's social lives so trying to do the Rule of 6, or no mixing in other people's homes. For many this is the line that would be unacceptable.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2021)

Briefing by PM at 6pm. Wondering what’s new that we know about the omicron variant that we didn’t know last week and that can’t wait until the 18th as planned.  That’s simply concerning.


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			That's an interesting one. In my cycling instructor role I have to check bikes for road worthiness before we start the course. The kids will have brought their bikes out and laid them down (outside). They are then moved to one side for some verbal instructions whilst one of us checks the bikes. We've been "reminded" this week of the Covid requirements which mean sanitising hands before and after checking every bike. Or, if we wear gloves (which I do as often they're filthy) then they need to be changed for every bike! It's going to take ages to do the checks on that basis...
		
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They are using the Irish policy, to be sure, to be sure, to be sure.


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Briefing by PM at 6pm. Wondering what’s new that we know about the omicron variant that we didn’t know last week and that can’t wait until the 18th as planned.  That’s simply concerning.
		
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I don't think that can be answered without breaking the politics rule however I don't think there is any breaking news on Omicron, most of the stories (that I have read) on Twitter etc still suggest that it's still too early to make definite decisions based on the data and that it still looks like it's more transmissible but also milder but again still too early to say for sure. It seems to be more able to escape the vaccine however the Booster still seems to prevent the worst illnesses. 

In my opinion, the real reason for this sudden leap into action is to try and get a different story onto the front pages of newspapers.


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Briefing by PM at 6pm. Wondering what’s new that we know about the omicron variant that we didn’t know last week and that can’t wait until the 18th as planned.  That’s simply concerning.
		
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It needs WFH, masks in indoor public settings and proof of at least double vax or LFT -ve to get into entertainment venues.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			They are using the Irish policy, to be sure, to be sure, to be sure.
		
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Tell me about it. Don't get me started on adjusting helmets (they can't flipping do it no matter how I tell them!) and keeping them all 2m away from you at all times...


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 8, 2021)

Boris to announce Plan B. No news yet on whether that's a move to working from home and vaccine passports or the entertainment for the next Downing Street party.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Briefing by PM at 6pm. Wondering what’s new that we know about the omicron variant that we didn’t know last week and that can’t wait until the 18th as planned.  That’s simply concerning.
		
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Jumping before the P45 arrives?  (Ooops, sorry mods, last one I promise)


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Boris to announce Plan B. No news yet on whether that's a move to working from home and vaccine passports or the entertainment for the next Downing Street party.






Click to expand...

We getting the Sweeney to police the lockdowns then 😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2021)

Good news from my work perspective given the rising pressures on our respiratory wards. We need a road block of some description to stop the transmission and so WFH is a logical step. Feel for pubs and restaurants as it will inevitably hit their business at their peak time for another year as there will be many cancellations


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good news from my work perspective given the rising pressures on our respiratory wards. We need a road block of some description to stop the transmission and so WFH is a logical step. Feel for pubs and restaurants as it will inevitably hit their business at their peak time for another year as there will be many cancellations
		
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It's not a big change in Bars and Restaurants. Walk in with a mask, sit down and take it off, how's it going to hit their business?


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not a big change in Bars and Restaurants. Walk in with a mask, sit down and take it off, how's it going to hit their business?
		
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I think it'll hit consumer confidence in terms of the new variant cases doubling every 2-3 days so people will be more reluctant to spend a lengthy period of time in a crowded pub or restaurant


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			...We need *a road block of some description* to stop the transmission and so WFH is a logical step...
		
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Metaphorical I trust?


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

Having seen the briefing I've no reason to change my opinion that it was anything other than a sham, rushed through to try and change the front pages of the papers from one story to another. We know that the scientists have been calling for tougher restrictions, that's fine as they come from that side of the argument however we were told that it'd be a couple of weeks before decisions were made and then suddenly, on a day of terrible news for the Government, we have an important briefing to tell us we're going to Plan B. The stats that Whitty showed didn't even particularly do much to prove that there was a basis for the change IMO, not enough in the data to make such a big decision. They showed a chart of the SA cases even though we know that they're vaccination rate is around 20% so of course it is going to take off. I didn't see that he showed a chart on hospitalisations and deaths though? The ones I have seen in SA show that they are largely flat at the moment so probably doesn't suit the narrative. That's not to say that things won't change but after all the guff about following the data this decision really doesn't make any particular sense. BTW, I have no personal stake in these restrictions, they don't affect me on a personal or business level so have no skin in the game so to speak.


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## drdel (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Briefing by PM at 6pm. Wondering what’s new that we know about the omicron variant that we didn’t know last week and that can’t wait until the 18th as planned.  That’s simply concerning.
		
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We now know the doubling tine is <3 days...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2021)

drdel said:



			We now know the doubling tine is <3 days...
		
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Not good, requires earliest damping…hope Plan B works, and I hope we‘ve all been listening all across England. 

From what I‘ve been hearing today, some members of the public admit to not paying much, if any, attention to the news - especially coming from the mouths of politicians.  Hope they were listening to Vallance and Whitty.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think it'll hit consumer confidence in terms of the new variant cases doubling every 2-3 days so people will be more reluctant to spend a lengthy period of time in a crowded pub or restaurant
		
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We will see by the daily infection rates over the next few weeks coupled with death rates and how vaccination is affected.  There appears to be a great deal of supposition at the moment.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2021)

I hoped a journalist would ask the Prime Minister what evidence there is that vaccine passports wiould reduce the no. of people infected with Covid and cite the recent 70-page Scottish Govt report saying they’d made zero difference north of the border?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I hoped a journalist would ask the Prime Minister what evidence there is that vaccine passports wiould reduce the no. of people infected with Covid and cite the recent 70-page Scottish Govt report saying they’d made zero difference north of the border?
		
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Something seems to be working north of the border.


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## fundy (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Something seems to be working north of the border.
View attachment 39866

Click to expand...


Is it? or this a virus that comes and goes in waves in different locations? How does that map look over a month, 6 months or a year?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 8, 2021)

Just filling out the passenger locator and it just refuses to scan the qr code or accept the photo … stupid system 
Managed to get the fit to fly lat flow test , was initially a pain as you needed a Swedish social number to access the booking. I do find the Swedish quite insular in this respect, they do marginalise people. I get the U.K. left the EU but as an EU citizen you would not have a working Swedish social number. 
They finally accepted my passport as the document it needed to be associated to, and I did explain that the U.K. government doesn’t recognise Swedish social numbers, but would recognise a passport number .. anyway it was done and the people on the ground do a great job… the beaurocrats though on both sides are useless self important masterbators. I really hate poor preparation .. anyway I shall be returning to plague island on Friday so put your masks on and wash your hands !


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468676412332642305


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468676412332642305
View attachment 39867

Click to expand...

Yet only the cases were shown in the briefing? I’ve though Whitty and Vallance etc have always been pretty fair albeit tending to be on the cautious side which is understandable however to give such one sided data was poor imo.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 8, 2021)

I'm due to be joining a job at the end of the month and they want a negative PCR test before joining. Having recently had Covid the government and medical advice is not to take another PCR test for 90 days unless I show symptoms. If I take the PCR test there's a fairly high chance that it will come back as positive as it will pick up the previous infection. If that happens then by law I have to isolate again for 10 days even if it is a false positive from the previous infection. Airlines and governments are happy to accept evidence of having recovered from a recent infection instead of a negative test but the contractor won't accept it at the minute. The argument continues.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 8, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Having seen the briefing I've no reason to change my opinion that it was anything other than a sham, rushed through to try and change the front pages of the papers from one story to another. We know that the scientists have been calling for tougher restrictions, that's fine as they come from that side of the argument however we were told that it'd be a couple of weeks before decisions were made and then suddenly, on a day of terrible news for the Government, we have an important briefing to tell us we're going to Plan B. The stats that Whitty showed didn't even particularly do much to prove that there was a basis for the change IMO, not enough in the data to make such a big decision. They showed a chart of the SA cases even though we know that they're vaccination rate is around 20% so of course it is going to take off. I didn't see that he showed a chart on hospitalisations and deaths though? The ones I have seen in SA show that they are largely flat at the moment so probably doesn't suit the narrative. That's not to say that things won't change but after all the guff about following the data this decision really doesn't make any particular sense. BTW, I have no personal stake in these restrictions, they don't affect me on a personal or business level so have no skin in the game so to speak.
		
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To be honest I thought Whitty was not looking or sounding that convinced when presenting some of the data as rationale for requiring the change being announced today.

I absolutely get the imperative to tighten things up well in advance of things looking bad in respect of hospitalisations…so no complaints on that front at all…just commenting upon Whitty’s general demeanour.  I had no such thoughts in respect of Vallance.  I also get that Sage met yesterday and cabinet was briefed today, so I can see where a desire on behalf of the PM to act promptly given the evidence came from.


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I also get that Sage met yesterday and cabinet was briefed today, so I can see where a *desire to act promptly given the evidence came from.*

Click to expand...

But I haven’t seen anything that could have changed the line of checking in a few weeks time when the data was there to pressing the button overnight. There is little in the data and surely they’re not going to base it on a country with very low vaccination rates (high cases)? And then to top that off their hospitalisation and death rates are flat at this point. There is absolutely nothing in the data to have meant a drastic change in thinking which there is no evidence of at present. 

I understand  that Twitter is not the place to get all medical advice from as it tends to be ‘Covid doesn’t exist’ vs ‘Covid is going to kill you’ but the general consensus is that Omicrom is mild and doesn’t cause hospitalisations.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

fundy said:



			Is it? or this a virus that comes and goes in waves in different locations? How does that map look over a month, 6 months or a year?
		
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The virus doesn't recognise locations.  It may well come and go in various locations but it's the ability to transmit from person to person that makes it happen.


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## Leftitshort (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The virus doesn't recognise locations.  It may well come and go in various locations but it's the ability to transmit from person to person that makes it happen.
		
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But on your map there aren’t any people in the yellow bits? Person to person transmission is difficult with no people?


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## fundy (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The virus doesn't recognise locations.  It may well come and go in various locations but it's the ability to transmit from person to person that makes it happen.
		
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so you havent got the same map for the last month, or 3 months or more then?

or have you chosen one map to make a point that isnt true?


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Something seems to be working north of the border.
View attachment 39866

Click to expand...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1468649289698136065


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 8, 2021)

IanM said:



			I think discussion of increased instances of the new variant is ok
		
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If you truly, hand on heart, believe that is the overriding reason for bringing in the new restrictions then I've got a bridge for sale and several hundred acres of prime farm land in the Florida Everglades that I'm looking to sell.


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Douglas Ross :

There is no evidence that vaccine passports stop the spread of Covid. 

I didn’t vote for them at Holyrood and I won’t be voting for them at Westminster.
		
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This is one of those questions where simple logic is helpful.

If you accept that Covid spreads by close contact or in crowded places, that people who are vaccinated or have a negative test are less likely to spread it in such environments and that passports limit access from people who are not vaccinated or test negative to those places, then you must accept that they reduce spread, or provide a coherent argument why they do not. 

It is a bit difficult to ethically conduct a randomised controlled trial into the question.


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is one of those questions where simple logic is helpful.

If you accept that Covid spreads by close contact or in crowded places, that people who are vaccinated or have a negative test are less likely to spread it in such environments and that passports limit access from people who are not vaccinated or test negative to those places, then you must accept that they reduce spread, or provide a coherent argument why they do not.

It is a bit difficult to ethically conduct a randomised controlled trial into the question.
		
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Doesn’t the Norway thing suggest that it isn’t the case? They’ve some of the highest vaccination rates and had a recent event where only the vaccinated were invited. Out of 120 guests at least 60 later tested positive with the latest variant thought to be to blame I.e. vaccines don’t prevent transmission and even less so after a couple of months. It’s obviously a small sample and largely anecdotal but it does go some way to support the argument that vaccine passports were looking to be a waste of time and now even more so?


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Doesn’t the Norway thing suggest that it isn’t the case? They’ve some of the highest vaccination rates and had a recent event where only the vaccinated were invited. Out of 120 guests at least 60 later tested positive with the latest variant thought to be to blame I.e. vaccines don’t prevent transmission and even less so after a couple of months. It’s obviously a small sample and largely anecdotal but it does go some way to support the argument that vaccine passports were looking to be a waste of time and now even more so?
		
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None of the cases are so far unwell. Their vaccinations are likely attenuating the severity and outcomes of the infection. I understand that they were all double vaccinated but not boosted. We know that some breakthrough infections/vaccine escape can occur. There is an element of chance in these things. One or two superspreaders shedding large amounts of virus can blow the numbers out of the water.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

fundy said:



			so you havent got the same map for the last month, or 3 months or more then?

or have you chosen one map to make a point that isnt true?
		
Click to expand...

That map is today's.  If you think I'm going to post the maps for the last 3 months or more then.......

You suggested the virus comes and goes in various locations, as such you should concede that something in those locations encourage the virus to spread, or do you think it just likes moving around to keep us guessing?


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## fundy (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That map is today's.  If you think I'm going to post the maps for the last 3 months or more then.......

You suggested the virus comes and goes in various locations, as such you should concede that something in those locations encourage the virus to spread, or do you think it just likes moving around to keep us guessing?
		
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so youre not going to post them because they show the complete opposite to the one you have posted?  what do you think Scotland have done that has suddenly made such a difference and why didnt it work for the previous few months?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			But on your map there aren’t any people in the yellow bits? Person to person transmission is difficult with no people?
		
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It's the BBC's map by the way.
At one point most of Scotland was dark brown colour. 
No people in the light coloured areas, really!


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is one of those questions where simple logic is helpful.

If you accept that Covid spreads by close contact or in crowded places, that people who are vaccinated or have a negative test are less likely to spread it in such environments and that passports limit access from people who are not vaccinated or test negative to those places, then you must accept that they reduce spread, or provide a coherent argument why they do not.

It is a bit difficult to ethically conduct a randomised controlled trial into the question.
		
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Isn't there a case thought that simple logic doesn't fit what's actually happening though.
I haven't seen the numbers but if the leader of the socttich conservatives is going against the official government line then there must be data ?


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



*None of the cases are so far unwell.* Their vaccinations are likely attenuating the severity and outcomes of the infection. I understand that they were all double vaccinated but not boosted. We know that some breakthrough infections/vaccine escape can occur. There is an element of chance in these things. One or two superspreaders shedding large amounts of virus can blow the numbers out of the water.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully that ends up supporting the early data that whilst the new variant is more transmissible it causes less issues on the health front.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

fundy said:



			so youre not going to post them because they show the complete opposite to the one you have posted?  what do you think Scotland have done that has suddenly made such a difference and why didnt it work for the previous few months?
		
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I'm not posting them because its not required, today's map shows clearly that the spread in Scotland is now relatively low compared to the rest of the Nation and its not needed.  Of course feel free to do so if you want.

You keep prevaricating, the rates in Scotland are the lowest in the Nation when not so long ago they were very high.  My original point was that Scotland must be doing something right to lower infections, your point seems to be that the virus likes to travel around a bit 🙄


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## Ethan (Dec 8, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Hopefully that ends up supporting the early data that whilst the new variant is more transmissible it causes less issues on the health front.
		
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That seems to be the case, but older/vulnerable people can be put in hospital by a cold or flu, so Covid can definitely do it, and with high transmissibility, NHS pressure can be an issue.


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## fundy (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not posting them because its not required, today's map shows clearly that the spread in Scotland is now relatively low compared to the rest of the Nation and its not needed.  Of course feel free to do so if you want.

You keep prevaricating, the rates in Scotland are the lowest in the Nation when not so long ago they were very high.  My original point was that Scotland must be doing something right to lower infections, your point seems to be that the virus likes to travel around a bit 🙄
		
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Yet you still cant tell us what theyre doing right that they havent been doing the previous 3 months when their numbers were worse. Maybe it is more random than plenty want to believe and not as a result of doing something right?


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## road2ruin (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That seems to be the case, but older/vulnerable people can be put in hospital by a cold or flu, so Covid can definitely do it, and with high transmissibility, NHS pressure can be an issue.
		
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Absolutely agree and didn’t have an issue with the initial restrictions of mandatory mask wearing in close/public spaces however my issue is that nothing in the data presented today warranted the new restrictions. Happy to have restrictions if they are warranted but not if they’re to take the heat off other bad decisions.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

fundy said:



			Yet you still cant tell us what theyre doing right that they havent been doing the previous 3 months when their numbers were worse. Maybe it is more random than plenty want to believe and not as a result of doing something right?
		
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Maybe it's been taking sensible precautions, maybe vaccination passports have helped, maybe covids not partial to haggis and bagpipes and decided to move to warmer climes.


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Something seems to be working north of the border.
View attachment 39866

Click to expand...

Perhaps those that have this variant don't like the cold North. Or even the variant itself doesn't. After all, it supposedly originated in South Africa.
Then again, maybe the identification/reporting process is 'better' in England/Ireland.
The old saying 'Lies; Damn Lies; and Statistics' could well be appropriate too!


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## Leftitshort (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It's the BBC's map by the way.
At one point most of Scotland was dark brown colour.
No people in the light coloured areas, really!
		
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Some not as many. If the population is less dense then it’s not a comparison. The central belt (where the people live) is red


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps those that have this variant don't like the cold North. Or even the variant itself doesn't. After all, it supposedly originated in South Africa.
Then again, maybe the identification/reporting process is 'better' in England/Ireland.
The old saying 'Lies; Damn Lies; and Statistics' could well be appropriate too!
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget the haggis and bagpipes.

Do you think the identification/reporting process is worse in Scotland, any evidence or just a gut feeling?


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This is one of those questions where simple logic is helpful.

If you accept that Covid spreads by close contact or in crowded places, that people who are vaccinated or have a negative test are less likely to spread it in such environments and that passports limit access from people who are not vaccinated or test negative to those places, then you must accept that they reduce spread, or provide a coherent argument why they do not.

It is a bit difficult to ethically conduct a randomised controlled trial into the question.
		
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On this issue (at least) Douglas Ross is a complete pillock (imo, of course).


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## SocketRocket (Dec 8, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Some not as many. If the population is less dense then it’s not a comparison. The central belt (where the people live) is red
		
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It's a comparison of it's self.  If the rates in Scotland have reduced overall then the virus has lessened.  The rates are per hundred thousand population by the way so it's not really pertinent.


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't forget the haggis and bagpipes.

Do you think the identification/reporting process is worse in Scotland, any evidence or just a gut feeling?
		
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No idea! It was simply a possible explanation - among many others!
Note my use of 'maybe'!


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 8, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			It does, my only worry is how many will comply given whats been discussed all day...
		
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Well, if they don't they are daft. By all means, if you wish to, be annoyed and call certain people certain names, if it helps🙄, but to reject the common sense of taking more precautions because of your anger, is not being wise about your or your family's health.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 8, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Briefing by PM at 6pm. Wondering what’s new that we know about the omicron variant that we didn’t know last week and that can’t wait until the 18th as planned.  That’s simply concerning.
		
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It's not what is new, it's becoming clear that this is spreading rapidly, the word "doubling " is used. So action is needed soon as.

And you know that.
So, what is concerning? ( as if )


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It's not what is new, it's becoming clear that this is spreading rapidly, the word "doubling " is used. So action is needed soon as.

And you know that.
So, what is concerning? ( as if )
		
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And it's extremely fortunate that this is likely sufficiently 'controversial' that it diverts public attention from some other news!


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 8, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But I haven’t seen anything that could have changed the line of checking in a few weeks time when the data was there to pressing the button overnight. There is little in the data and surely they’re not going to base it on a country with very low vaccination rates (high cases)? And then to top that off their hospitalisation and death rates are flat at this point. There is absolutely nothing in the data to have meant a drastic change in thinking which there is no evidence of at present. 

I understand  that Twitter is not the place to get all medical advice from as it tends to be ‘Covid doesn’t exist’ vs ‘Covid is going to kill you’ but the general consensus is that Omicrom is mild and doesn’t cause hospitalisations.
		
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You trust the general consensus of Twitter, do you?
There are reports, ( e.g. the GP in S.A. etc, but Ethan answered that one), but that is all. It is known that hospitalisation occurs a week or two after infection, so there isn't B enough data yet as to whether Omicron infections cause that , and to what extent.
We are getting rumour , accusations and innuendo replacing evidence, science and logic at the moment, and , IMHO, it's present in HoC as much as anywhere.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 8, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			And it's extremely fortunate that this is likely sufficiently 'controversial' that it diverts public attention from some other news!
		
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Have you been diverted?   Who here is unaware of the "other news" that this conference has diverted us from. 
How many out there, troubling to watch the conference, would not also have seen the "other news"? 
From what I saw of Kuensberg's question I think it somewhat emphasised it?


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## Foxholer (Dec 8, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Have you been diverted?   Who here is unaware of the "other news" that this conference has diverted us from.
How many out there, troubling to watch the conference, would not also have seen the "other news"?
From what I saw of Kuensberg's question I think it somewhat emphasised it?
		
Click to expand...

Far too 'political', so I won't comment (further).


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## Tashyboy (Dec 8, 2021)

In a nutshell, for me Omnicron of 2021= Delta of 2020.and we know how that panned out. We have been here before. Surely we could and should be better prepared. Unless I have missed it.We should still be trying to save the NHS.
Good night and stay safe everyone.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 9, 2021)

The difference is we didn't set the rules


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			In a nutshell, for me Omnicron of 2021= Delta of 2020.and we know how that panned out. We have been here before. Surely we could and should be better prepared. Unless I have missed it.We should still be trying to save the NHS.
Good night and stay safe everyone.
		
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H'mm. I' don't believe it's 'equal' to Delta. From all the info, it's certainly less deadly - which is the most important trait imo. It seems to me likely that, as far smarter/more informed folk than me have intimated, it's more transmissable, but less deadly than earlier variants (probably a good trait for a virus that depends on transmission to survive). It does seem likely that this - random mutations - will become an ongoing issue that will have to be pretty much constantly/seasonally addressed - just as Flu(s) are.
FWIW, while the NHS is certainly under stress because of this, numbers I've seen for actual cases - as opposed to prevention - are about 5% of NHS resources, so maybe not as desperate as some believe - but certainly enough to 'stress the system'. Certainly the effect on morale is significant though!


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## 4LEX (Dec 9, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. I' don't believe it's 'equal' to Delta. From all the info, it's certainly less deadly - which is the most important trait imo. It seems to me likely that, as far smarter/more informed folk than me have intimated, it's more transmissable, but less deadly than earlier variants (probably a good trait for a virus that depends on transmission to survive). It does seem likely that this - random mutations - will become an ongoing issue that will have to be pretty much constantly/seasonally addressed - just as Flu(s) are.
FWIW, while the NHS is certainly under stress because of this, numbers I've seen for actual cases - as opposed to prevention - are about 5% of NHS resources, so maybe not as desperate as some believe - but certainly enough to 'stress the system'. Certainly the effect on morale is significant though!
		
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It's in no way proven to be less deadly at the moment! How can you say 'certainly' without any proof? Theres a lag of 3-4 weeks before you can even remotely tell that.

Also if it's 2-3 times more tranmissable and resistant to vaccines to a higher degree, which looks likely, case numbers will rise so fast the NHS will be overwhelmed. Simple maths. The actions taken now are to stop there being 125k+ cases in January. Incase you hadn't notitce we're already at a starting point of 40-50k a day without the new variant.

The best case is it's less deadly and boosters hold fast for time before an updated jab becomes available in the spring.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

4LEX said:



			It's in no way proven to be less deadly at the moment! How can you say 'certainly' without any proof? Theres a lag of 3-4 weeks before you can even remotely tell that.
...
		
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1. Read the stats! Every indication - if perhaps not _absolute_ proof (as tht's actually imposible) - is that it's less deadly. And there's certainly been more than '3-4 weeks' for those stats to be gathered. But I agree that I should have stated '_seems_ less deadly' as every report I've seen infers.
2. Kindly do not quote me 'out of context'! The phrase prior to that which you took exception to was important!


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## bobmac (Dec 9, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Also if it's 2-3 times more tranmissable and resistant to vaccines to a higher degree, which looks likely, *case numbers will rise so fast the NHS will be overwhelmed. Simple maths.*

Click to expand...

Rising case numbers won't necessarily mean the NHS will be overwhelmed as not all cases end up in hospital, especially with the high numbers of vaccines and boosters being given.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 9, 2021)

Unfortunately re omnicron. Only time will tell how bad it has been re a variant.


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## Crazyface (Dec 9, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Irresponsible imo! Both to youself/family and to work colleagues
		
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Maybe, but I'm not alone, I'd say 30% of the staff are not wearing masks, and the same for customers. This thing is not going away and imo won't go away until we've all had it in one form or another. I'd say make sure you're vaccinated to give yourself the best chance of getting through this safely.


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## rudebhoy (Dec 9, 2021)

Can anyone explain the logic of having to WFH wherever possible but still being encouraged to attend Xmas parties?


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## Crazyface (Dec 9, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Foxy old mathe, you know he only posts for effect. He will be wearing a mask.
		
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Wrong. I've made a badge using the gov template and company lanyard.


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## fenwayrich (Dec 9, 2021)

I simply cannot understand why, walking round a shop, masks are compulsory, whereas it is permissible to do exactly the same thing in a pub or restaurant without one.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I simply cannot understand why, walking round a shop, masks are compulsory, whereas it is permissible to do exactly the same thing in a pub or restaurant without one.
		
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Restaurants and pubs now mostly have table service, and tables are supposed to be spaced a bit. Waiters/waitresses/servers should be masked, although I am sure they are not all doing so. That reduces the spreading potential somewhat compared to a shop where people are moving around closer to one another a lot more. There is still a risk in both places, likely a bit greater in the pub/restaurant. That subject which must not be mentioned also plays a part.


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## Crazyface (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			And I think that is potentially the direction of travel although if Omicron ends up being very mild but also very transmissible regardless of vaccination status then passports might be a waste of time. I just don't believe that any Government should force people into any vaccination especially for something that (fortunately) for the vast majority is very mild and the vaccination could (however small) pose more of a risk than severe illness from the virus.
		
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I find it odd that some people kick off when people say they aren't wearing masks, but find it ok that some people shouldn't have to get vaccinated.


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I find it odd that some people kick off when people say they aren't wearing masks, but find it ok that some people shouldn't have to get vaccinated.
		
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Not sure if this is aimed at me however you can be pro (or anti) mask and still feel that mandatory vaccinations are wrong.


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## D-S (Dec 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Restaurants and pubs now mostly have table service, and tables are supposed to be spaced a bit. Waiters/waitresses/servers should be masked, although I am sure they are not all doing so. That reduces the spreading potential somewhat compared to a shop where people are moving around closer to one another a lot more. There is still a risk in both places, likely a bit greater in the pub/restaurant. That subject which must not be mentioned also plays a part.
		
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Around here I do not know of a single pub which is table service, restaurants are as they always have been.
Since the recent ruling masks in retail have been at 100% - including staff  ( I always thought it strange when they didn’t but customers were advised to)


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

D-S said:



			Around here I do not know of a single pub which is table service, restaurants are as they always have been.
Since the recent ruling masks in retail have been at 100% - including staff  ( I always thought it strange when they didn’t but customers were advised to)
		
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No, agree, table service at pubs disappeared in our area as soon as the restrictions were relaxed.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 9, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			Can anyone explain the logic of having to WFH wherever possible but still being encouraged to attend Xmas parties?
		
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Keeps the economy going


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Having seen the briefing I've no reason to change my opinion that it was anything other than a sham, rushed through to try and change the front pages of the papers from one story to another. We know that the scientists have been calling for tougher restrictions, that's fine as they come from that side of the argument however we were told that it'd be a couple of weeks before decisions were made and then suddenly, on a day of terrible news for the Government, we have an important briefing to tell us we're going to Plan B. The stats that Whitty showed didn't even particularly do much to prove that there was a basis for the change IMO, not enough in the data to make such a big decision. They showed a chart of the SA cases even though we know that they're vaccination rate is around 20% so of course it is going to take off. I didn't see that he showed a chart on hospitalisations and deaths though? The ones I have seen in SA show that they are largely flat at the moment so probably doesn't suit the narrative. That's not to say that things won't change but after all the guff about following the data this decision really doesn't make any particular sense. BTW, I have no personal stake in these restrictions, they don't affect me on a personal or business level so have no skin in the game so to speak.
		
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In my opinion, they took the right steps, but for the wrong reasons. Still, the virus doesn't know that. 

We should never have relaxed mask wearing, and there should have been Covid passports in place long ago. Better late than never, but even better in good time than late. 

On the data, the problem is that if you wait for good local data, it is too late. Especially if you wait for hospitalisations and deaths which lag case identification by a week or more, which is 2 or 3 doubling times at current transmissibility.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			No, agree, table service at pubs disappeared in our area as soon as the restrictions were relaxed.
		
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It needs to come back.


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It needs to come back.
		
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Which will completely ruin pubs due to the additional staff required and the reduced number of customers allowed in the premises. I’ve seen no additional financial support being offered for hospitality and this is one of their busiest times of year.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2021)

Well, I for one am not going to play in a shotgun Christmas comp where it's necessary to go into the clubhouse for the prize giving as everyone gives a prize, and everyone gets one, according to their finishing position. 

Got Covid written all over it as a great Crissy present 🤔🤔


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I find it odd that some people kick off when people say they aren't wearing masks, but find it ok that some people shouldn't have to get vaccinated.
		
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And I find it very hard to politely find a word to describe the behaviour of someone who makes a point of not wearing a mask, against all the evidence that it aids the reduction in transmission. Especially when it costs nothing to do so.
Wearing a mask also helps the wearer not to pick up the virus.
Obstinacy can sometimes be amusing, but here it is being dangerous.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Well, I for one am not going to play in a shotgun Christmas comp where it's necessary to go into the clubhouse for the prize giving as everyone gives a prize, and everyone gets one, according to their finishing position. 

Got Covid written all over it as a great Crissy present 🤔🤔
		
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Exactly the reason  I didn't go to ours, which was followed by a meal, all sat on long tables.🙄


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Which will completely ruin pubs due to the additional staff required and the reduced number of customers allowed in the premises. I’ve seen no additional financial support being offered for hospitality and this is one of their busiest times of year.
		
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That is too bad. Perhaps you-know-who should have put stronger measures in place earlier to dampen community levels sooner to provide more headroom for Christmas.


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## IanM (Dec 9, 2021)

To summarise the narrative...

Increase measures = Bad thing
Decrease measures = Bad thing
All measures always too early/too late/wrong motives 

There you go.  Saves lots of posting/reading


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

IanM said:



			To summarise the narrative...

Increase measures = Bad thing
Decrease measures = Bad thing
All measures always too early/too late/wrong motives

There you go.  Saves lots of posting/reading 

Click to expand...

That is pretty much it. Titrating public policy measures to the minimum level needed to maximally suppress cases is impossible.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 9, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Well, I for one am not going to play in a shotgun Christmas comp where it's necessary to go into the clubhouse for the prize giving as everyone gives a prize, and everyone gets one, according to their finishing position.

Got Covid written all over it as a great Crissy present 🤔🤔
		
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It was our Captain's drive in two weeks ago and cases seem to have gone through the roof at the club. Clubhouse closed all last weekend. I certainly wouldn't attend an indoors function in the current situation either.


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## Voyager EMH (Dec 9, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Well, I for one am not going to play in a shotgun Christmas comp where it's necessary to go into the clubhouse for the prize giving as everyone gives a prize, and everyone gets one, according to their finishing position.

Got Covid written all over it as a great Crissy present 🤔🤔
		
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Yep. There's a shotgun start Am/Am at my place tomorrow with a meal afterwards. Some tees have 2 groups of 4 at the start. That means about 60 to 70 blokes all in the clubhouse at the same time. Potential super-spreader event. I'm staying well away from such things this winter. Had my booster on 23rd of Oct.


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is pretty much it. Titrating public policy measures to the minimum level needed to maximally suppress cases is impossible.
		
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In  public policy matters it's best to assume the public are all stupid,  a few  but not many, are a bit less stupid but not by a lot.


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is too bad.
		
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Pretty callous attitude IMO especially when the industry is the 4th biggest employer and provides around 3.2m jobs. You ruin that industry and the results would be far worse that anything that Covid can do.


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## bobmac (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			You ruin that industry and the results would be *far worse that anything that Covid can do*.
		
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Really? What's worse than death?


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## DRW (Dec 9, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Maybe, but I'm not alone, I'd say 30% of the staff are not wearing masks, and the same for customers. *This thing is not going away and imo won't go away until we've all had it in one form or another. I'd say make sure you're vaccinated to give yourself the best chance of getting through this safely.*

Click to expand...

I wish the end part of this wasnt true(its clearly never going away), its so not what I wanted almost 2 years ago but still coming to terms with it for over the last year. I think alot of people struggle with that. Restrictions are never free, if you can not see that now, then you are not looking at the whole news.....

We really need treatments to improve/get out there.

All the real world and lab based testing shows the same thing on average. Previous infection is the best protection against variants, long lasting and re-infection. For many that will be hard to accept as well. Not true of all vaccines clearly but so far with this one, it is.

Could link up about 5 lab studies on antibodies testing and the new/old variant. They all show the same indication, you need a min of 3 doses of vaccine or some infection chucked in there for antibodies to be working better. Well worth taking 5 minutes of your time and reading the below :-

Janine Kimpel on Twitter: "First Omicron neutralization data from our lab using primary Omicron isolate from Tyrol with @AnnikaRoessler @LydiaRiepler @doctorflew and Dorothee von Laer @imed_tweets https://t.co/ids3fpxr47" / Twitter

Sandra Ciesek on Twitter: "unsere ersten Daten zur Neutralisation von Omicron versus Delta sind fertig: 2x Biontech, 2x Moderna, 1xAZ/1x Biontech nach 6 Monaten 0% Neutralisation bei Omicron, auch 3x Biontech 3 Monate nach Booster nur 25% NT versus 95% bei Delta. Bis zu 37fache Reduktion Delta vs. Omicron https://t.co/w0gHww26sg" / Twitter

Michael Bang Petersen on Twitter: "Unfortunately, the graph for vaccinations contained errors for the population distribution. Here is a corrected version. (4/4) https://t.co/YGgwIkEerO" / Twitter


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## BiMGuy (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Pretty callous attitude IMO especially when the industry is the 4th biggest employer and provides around 3.2m jobs. You ruin that industry and the results would be far worse that anything that Covid can do.
		
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Indeed. I wonder if the attitude would be the same if their industry and job was at risk?

I remember a lot of crying on the news from science types about what might happen to their industry post the B word! Some people have short memories.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Pretty callous attitude IMO especially when the industry is the 4th biggest employer and provides around 3.2m jobs. You ruin that industry and the results would be far worse that anything that Covid can do.
		
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You edited the rest of my comment. The simple fact is that we have to stop the cases rising. Sorry if you don't like that reality. Many people, and not just those working in pubs and restaurants, have suffered because of weak and half-arsed policies on Covid, and we are all now paying some of the price for that, and it is unfortunate that others will suffer too. 

The new measures do not close pubs and restaurants, but if we don't get a grip, that may have to happen too. So if you have complaints, take them to the people who should have acted sooner and better.


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## DRW (Dec 9, 2021)

This variant is doubling at 2 to maybe 4 days currently(time will tell, noisy at the moment), which isnt much different to the original virus....Now think back to last Feb/March 20.

How do people think the current restrictions are going to halt or massively slow the spread, history from last year should tell you otherwise.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Indeed. I wonder if the attitude would be the same if their industry and job was at risk?

I remember a lot of crying on the news from science types about what might happen to their industry post the B word! Some people have short memories.
		
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Pubs and restaurants - open, no Covid passports needed. 

UK science based - badly damaged by the B-word. 

No comparison, except to those who understand neither.


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## GB72 (Dec 9, 2021)

Bit of a mentail wellbeing post today. Realising more and more how much this has affected me, how I have subtly being reducing where I go and who I see to the extent that, and I will admit it, doing something outside of my village scares the living daylights out of me, actual physical fear and stress. So, anyway, birthday on Saturday and we booked a weekend away in Brighton on a drunken evening at home in the summer. Some may agree, some will think I am stupid but i am going to at least try and go. I will be OK with the train down I think and the AirBnB and the restauarant on Friday night is small with precautions in place. We can take it from there. Long chat with my wife and she is happy that I can bail at any time I want without reason. I know it is not the best time of year for this but I feel that if I do not so something now to start at least trying to get on top of this, i am going to have a far greter struggle going forward trying to return to any semblance of normality.


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Really? What's worse than death?
		
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For most of those who work in those industries (tend to be younger) Covid is not going to affect them, you make over 3 million people unemployed and the affects both directly to them and the knock on to their family etc would put Covid in the shade.


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You edited the rest of my comment. The simple fact is that we have to stop the cases rising. Sorry if you don't like that reality. Many people, and not just those working in pubs and restaurants, have suffered because of weak and half-arsed policies on Covid, and we are all now paying some of the price for that, and it is unfortunate that others will suffer too.

The new measures do not close pubs and restaurants, but if we don't get a grip, that may have to happen too. So if you have complaints, take them to the people who should have acted sooner and better.
		
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We've had the Kent variant, Delta and now Omicrom, we've not stopped any of them out of the country and barely slowed the spread and probably won't with any future variants. What are we going to do next Christmas when another variant arrives, shut down entire industries again?


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## GB72 (Dec 9, 2021)

Whether Covid passports in themselves have a direct impact or not, the side effect is that the NHS vaccine booking website has apparrently been jammed since the announcement last night. Seems like some only needed a little motivation to sort themselves out with a jab whilst others only had a moral objection untl it stopped them going clubbing on a Saturday night.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 9, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Really? What's worse than death?
		
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Covid has also contributed to ancillary losses of life as well - it’s been huge on mental health and even more so when people have lost their livelihood and homes , especially in the hospitality sector


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Bit of a mentail wellbeing post today. Realising more and more how much this has affected me, how I have subtly being reducing where I go and who I see to the extent that, and I will admit it, doing something outside of my village scares the living daylights out of me, actual physical fear and stress. So, anyway, birthday on Saturday and we booked a weekend away in Brighton on a drunken evening at home in the summer. Some may agree, some will think I am stupid but i am going to at least try and go. I will be OK with the train down I think and the AirBnB and the restauarant on Friday night is small with precautions in place. We can take it from there. Long chat with my wife and she is happy that I can bail at any time I want without reason. I know it is not the best time of year for this but I feel that if I do not so something now to start at least trying to get on top of this, i am going to have a far greter struggle going forward trying to return to any semblance of normality.
		
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When something gets inside your head a glib response from me is neither going to change your mind nor help so I wont make one. I hope that you do go and importantly, enjoy your weekend though . I've done a few of these over the last 6 months, all when allowed, and they have done me the power of good.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Whether Covid passports in themselves have a direct impact or not, the side effect is that the NHS vaccine booking website has apparrently been jammed since the announcement last night. Seems like some only needed a little motivation to sort themselves out with a jab whilst others only had a moral objection untl it stopped them going clubbing on a Saturday night.
		
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We as a country don't want to have to make them a legal requirement.. would be a political disaster for one and morally questionable 

However people like you say just need a little push 

So many people I know who didn't want it had it just go Be able to go away


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## DanFST (Dec 9, 2021)

Go, and have a cracking time!



GB72 said:



			Bit of a mentail wellbeing post today. Realising more and more how much this has affected me, how I have subtly being reducing where I go and who I see to the extent that, and I will admit it, doing something outside of my village scares the living daylights out of me, actual physical fear and stress. So, anyway, birthday on Saturday and we booked a weekend away in Brighton on a drunken evening at home in the summer. Some may agree, some will think I am stupid but i am going to at least try and go. I will be OK with the train down I think and the AirBnB and the restauarant on Friday night is small with precautions in place. We can take it from there. Long chat with my wife and she is happy that I can bail at any time I want without reason. I know it is not the best time of year for this but I feel that if I do not so something now to start at least trying to get on top of this, i am going to have a far greter struggle going forward trying to return to any semblance of normality.
		
Click to expand...


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			For most of those who work in those industries (tend to be younger) Covid is not going to affect them, you make over 3 million people unemployed and the affects both directly to them and the knock on to their family etc would put Covid in the shade.
		
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Maybe it won’t affect the younger people, but most of the people I see spending money in hospitality are considerably older and prime candidates for the worst that COVID can do. How much work will there be in 6 months time for the young people if we’ve killed off a lot of their customers?


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We've had the Kent variant, Delta and now Omicrom, we've not stopped any of them out of the country and barely slowed the spread and probably won't with any future variants. What are we going to do next Christmas when another variant arrives, shut down entire industries again?
		
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If necessary, yes, but if prompt responses and consistent messages from you-know-who are implemented, and vaccination rates continue to rise, the risk should be less. It is possible to contain the extent of spread, others have done a much better job at this. Variant development is encouraged by half-baked measures.


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe it won’t affect the younger people, but most of the people I see spending money in hospitality are considerably older and prime candidates for the worst that COVID can do. How much work will there be in 6 months time for the young people if we’ve killed off a lot of their customers?
		
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On the flip side there won't be anywhere left for the older left to drink....


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2021)

Earlier in the year I said the way we removed most restrictions along with increased levels of Covid infections wouldn't end well, also we were encouraging new strains of covid.  Oh how they scoffed!


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Earlier in the year I said the way we removed most restrictions along with increased levels of Covid infections wouldn't end well and we were encouraging new strains of covid.  Oh how they scoffed!
		
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Aren't the new variants from abroad, I don't think we have cornered the market in new variants? Also, other countries in Europe who didn't remove the restrictions have hardly had an easier time of it. What is happening now was always likely to happen due to winter coming along, spending more times in home and a lack of ventilation indoors due to the cold etc.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Aren't the new variants from abroad, I don't think we have cornered the market in new variants? Also, other countries in Europe who didn't remove the restrictions have hardly had an easier time of it. What is happening now was always likely to happen due to winter coming along, spending more times in home and a lack of ventilation indoors due to the cold etc.
		
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Kent variant.


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Kent variant.
		
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I don't think we're ever going to know where the variants begin, we only know where they are discovered and that tends to be in the countries that have the best testing. There will be plenty more variants coming down the line.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			On the flip side there won't be anywhere left for the older left to drink....
		
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Maybe, but at least we’ll all be alive to argue about it….


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe, but at least we’ll all be alive to argue about it….
		
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But the older and more vulnerable have vaccinations and boosters? There will be future variants that are more/less transmissible and we cannot close down entire industries every autumn/winter whilst we run and entire vaccination campaign.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2021)

Was in Tesco the other night, a big influx of workman came in, about 20 or so, not one wearing a mask. All ignores requests to put on on.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But the older and more vulnerable have vaccinations and boosters? There will be future variants that are more/less transmissible and we cannot close down entire industries every autumn/winter whilst we run and entire vaccination campaign.
		
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Theres a difference between closing down entire industries and taking sensible precautions. Always a middle road to explore.


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## fundy (Dec 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Bit of a mentail wellbeing post today. Realising more and more how much this has affected me, how I have subtly being reducing where I go and who I see to the extent that, and I will admit it, doing something outside of my village scares the living daylights out of me, actual physical fear and stress. So, anyway, birthday on Saturday and we booked a weekend away in Brighton on a drunken evening at home in the summer. Some may agree, some will think I am stupid but i am going to at least try and go. I will be OK with the train down I think and the AirBnB and the restauarant on Friday night is small with precautions in place. We can take it from there. Long chat with my wife and she is happy that I can bail at any time I want without reason. I know it is not the best time of year for this but I feel that if I do not so something now to start at least trying to get on top of this, i am going to have a far greter struggle going forward trying to return to any semblance of normality.
		
Click to expand...


Happy birthday Greg, have a great time


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## rudebhoy (Dec 9, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Was in Tesco the other night, a big influx of workman came in, about 20 or so, not one wearing a mask. All ignores requests to put on on.
		
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That really winds me up. They think they can do what they like. Walked past our local sandwich shop this morning, 4 workies stood in there waiting to get served, none of them wearing a mask. Felt sorry for the poor girl behind the counter.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 9, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Was in Tesco the other night, a big influx of workman came in, about 20 or so, not one wearing a mask. All ignores requests to put on on.
		
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Especially as every little helps.


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## Old Skier (Dec 9, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I hoped a journalist would ask the Prime Minister what evidence there is that vaccine passports wiould reduce the no. of people infected with Covid and cite the recent 70-page Scottish Govt report saying they’d made zero difference north of the border?
		
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It took 70 pages to say that.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2021)

rudebhoy said:



			That really winds me up. They think they can do what they like. Walked past our local sandwich shop this morning, 4 workies stood in there waiting to get served, none of them wearing a mask. Felt sorry for the poor girl behind the counter.
		
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Had it been me behind the counter - no mask, no order. I know it hasn't been made mandatory yet but wouldn't want to risk my health. What if everyone came in unmasked?


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

From today's Plan B briefing....

"If I'm in a theatre watching a musical, can I take my mask off to sing?" 

No10: "Yes. There is a general exemption for singing" 

"So could I walk into Tesco without a mask as long as I'm singing?"

"No10: "Essentially, yes"


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## PNWokingham (Dec 9, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Restaurants and pubs now mostly have table service, and tables are supposed to be spaced a bit. Waiters/waitresses/servers should be masked, although I am sure they are not all doing so. That reduces the spreading potential somewhat compared to a shop where people are moving around closer to one another a lot more. There is still a risk in both places, likely a bit greater in the pub/restaurant. That subject which must not be mentioned also plays a part.
		
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pretty much no table service now and hardly onyone who works in the pubs wears masks. I have conducted a lot of first-hand research on this point!


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## road2ruin (Dec 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had it been me behind the counter - no mask, no order. I know it hasn't been made mandatory yet but wouldn't want to risk my health. What if everyone came in unmasked?
		
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Thing is the girl behind the counter then gets the abuse which really isn't her job. Plus, the interaction is extended and she actually ends up being more exposed to any virus! Not saying that it was right for them to go in unmasked but it's really not up to counter staff to take the grief for it.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 9, 2021)

Which is why a lot of supermarket chains aren't enforcing it this time


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			pretty much no table service now and hardly onyone who works in the pubs wears masks. I have conducted a lot of first-hand research on this point!
		
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I believe if you are working then you do not need to wear a mask, it is up to you. This came up first lock down when masks in offices were discussed. It might have changed but I don't think so. 

Keep researching though, very noble of you


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			pretty much no table service now and hardly onyone who works in the pubs wears masks. I have conducted a lot of first-hand research on this point!
		
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I take back my previous view that B****t would damage UK research efforts!


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## woofers (Dec 9, 2021)

Would it improve our understanding of the risks, likelihood and potential outcomes of the current situation if the figures for cases, hospitalisations and deaths could be differentiated by vaccinated, unvaccinated and underlying health issues? When the pandemic figures were first reported in 2020  ‘underlying health issues’ were included, why no longer ?
How do the cases, hospitalisations and deaths compare with, what was, a ‘normal’ flu season? What are the current figures for flu ?
I am not trying to belittle the current restrictions, just wanting to put a bit more perspective on the situation now that we are almost 2 years on from the original outbreak when little was known about the virus.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had it been me behind the counter - no mask, no order. I know it hasn't been made mandatory yet but wouldn't want to risk my health. What if everyone came in unmasked?
		
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It is in scotland


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had it been me behind the counter - no mask, no order. I know it hasn't been made mandatory yet but wouldn't want to risk my health. What if everyone came in unmasked?
		
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You’d probably have to “tut” twice.


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## Ethan (Dec 9, 2021)

woofers said:



			Would it improve our understanding of the risks, likelihood and potential outcomes of the current situation if the figures for cases, hospitalisations and deaths could be differentiated by vaccinated, unvaccinated and underlying health issues? When the pandemic figures were first reported in 2020  ‘underlying health issues’ were included, why no longer ?
How do the cases, hospitalisations and deaths compare with, what was, a ‘normal’ flu season? What are the current figures for flu ?
I am not trying to belittle the current restrictions, just wanting to put a bit more perspective on the situation now that we are almost 2 years on from the original outbreak when little was known about the virus.
		
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That is a complicated analysis. You would need age, gender, ethnicity., BMI, what type of vaccine, when given, but almost all of that data would relate to previous variants.  

Flu rates were vastly reduced last season, over 90% down, so there is a degree of substitution taking place. 

Covid affects a different, if overlapping demographic, with more young and middle aged people affected, but has a lower age-specific hospitalisation or kill rate. Covid also has more post-infection complications, some clinical such as long Covid, others subclinical and probably not identified at the time, but can be found on routine screening of "recovered" patients.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 9, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			pretty much no table service now and hardly onyone who works in the pubs wears masks. I have conducted a lot of first-hand research on this point!
		
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I have peer reviewed your research. 👍


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			From today's Plan B briefing....

"If I'm in a theatre watching a musical, can I take my mask off to sing?"

No10: "Yes. There is a general exemption for singing"

"So could I walk into Tesco without a mask as long as I'm singing?"

"No10: "Essentially, yes"



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But why on earth would sensible people look to find ways around guidance that is in place for everyone's well being?


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## GB72 (Dec 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			But why on earth would sensible people look to find ways around guidance that is in place for everyone's well being?
		
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Because some think it is a wonderful way of point scoring to create obscure ways around guidelines when the correct response should have been, be responsible, use common sense and where a mask in most places unless the activity that you are doing makes mask wearing not possible.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Something seems to be working north of the border.
View attachment 39866

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Look closely. The populated areas are the same colour as us. North of those people are nearly an endangered species 😂


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			But why on earth would sensible people look to find ways around guidance that is in place for everyone's well being?
		
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To show how ridiculous (and, more importantly imo, how poorly thought through) some of the rulings being made are!


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I simply cannot understand why, walking round a shop, masks are compulsory, whereas it is permissible to do exactly the same thing in a pub or restaurant without one.
		
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1. Difficult to eat and drink wearing a mask 😀

2. Importantly, people don't have to go into pubs etc. They choose to take the risk if they want to imbibe.  But members of public have to shop to live.


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			To show how ridiculous (and, more importantly imo, how poorly thought through) some of the rulings being made are!
		
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Unlike your good self they have had to make decisions on the hoof without the benefit of hindsight or your wisdom. I'm glad I'm in the UK we could be much worse off.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			1. Difficult to eat and drink wearing a mask 😀

2. Importantly, people don't have to go into pubs etc. They choose to take the risk if they want to imbibe.  *But members of public have to shop to live.*

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But do they?  We've barely set foot in a supermarket since all this started, having gone to home deliveries.  

Essentially I agree with what you're saying, that we will have to do some shopping, but even that can be vastly reduced.  And frankly I'm not missing the supermarket; once this is all over, food deliveries look likely to be our new normal.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Because some think it is a wonderful way of point scoring to create obscure ways around guidelines when the correct response should have been, be responsible, use common sense and where a mask in most places unless the activity that you are doing makes mask wearing not possible.
		
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The new national pastime. 😀
Frankly, when I think of this nation now, and liken it to a person, I see an image of a priest kneeling with his shirt torn off his back and his arm holding a whip flogging his back,  because of all his past sins.😬


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			To show how ridiculous (and, more importantly imo, how poorly thought through) some of the rulings being made are!
		
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As someone might say..."Twaddle"😀


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

drdel said:



			...they have had to make decisions on the hoof without the benefit of hindsight or your wisdom. ...
		
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Indeed, that's a major *reason* why. But not a good enough one from professional decision makers - which I am certainly not, so I also object to you snidey insult!


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As someone might say..."Twaddle"😀
		
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IYO!


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## drdel (Dec 9, 2021)

In Germany when WFH and walking from your bed to the desk has been classified a a 'commute ' as someone made a claim after injury. 

Be careful with your keyboards Forumers


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			The new national pastime. 😀
...
		
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FTFY


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## BiMGuy (Dec 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			1. Difficult to eat and drink wearing a mask 😀

2. Importantly, people don't have to go into pubs etc. They choose to take the risk if they want to imbibe.  *But members of public have to shop to live.*

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Nope. You can get your groceries and pretty much anything else you need delivered.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Nope. You can get your groceries and pretty much anything else you need delivered.
		
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Then why are supermarkets etc still pretty crowded?


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## BiMGuy (Dec 9, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Then why are supermarkets etc still pretty crowded?
		
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Dunno, doesn’t detract from the fact that there is very little need to go into shops if you want to avoid them!


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## Voyager EMH (Dec 9, 2021)

Just had an email inviting me to the seniors section AGM and meal next week. I think I will send my apologies. I'll be too busy at home watching telly, eating mince pies and singing.


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## Whereditgo (Dec 9, 2021)

Just been for my booster "I notice you've not had a flu injection......well we may as well stick that in the other arm while you're here"


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			But do they?  We've barely set foot in a supermarket since all this started, having gone to home deliveries.  

Essentially I agree with what you're saying, that we will have to do some shopping, but even that can be vastly reduced.  And frankly I'm not missing the supermarket; once this is all over, food deliveries look likely to be our new normal.
		
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I'll hopefully be doing what you will. At the moment my daughter does the clicking, I do the collecting.
But most people still do it the original way😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Nope. You can get your groceries and pretty much anything else you need delivered.
		
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I suspect that's what Churchill used to say😂
Seriously though, you know that the majority of people go into shops to get goods, supplies etc.
I agree there are deliveries , and Amazon et all, but overall it's a small number in comparison.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			IYO!
		
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C'mon, lighten up😂😂


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 9, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Nope. You can get your groceries and pretty much anything else you need delivered.
		
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Not if you’re on budget or have no access to IT and unfortunately these days these people still number in their millions.

For a lot of older people it is the only time they get out of their home and have some social contact.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2021)

We used home deliveries during the last lockdown and the biggest problem was the number of substitutions, many of which were nothing similar to what had been cancelled. One of the main reasons HID decided t mask up each week and go and do a shop in store. FIL still has home deliveries as MIL has significant health issues but he is still struggling to not have as much as 5-10% of any order changed/


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			C'mon, lighten up😂😂
		
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Kindly stop wasting my time!


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## chellie (Dec 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Had it been me behind the counter - no mask, no order. I know it hasn't been made mandatory yet but wouldn't want to risk my health. What if everyone came in unmasked?
		
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That is easier said than done.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We used home deliveries during the last lockdown and *the biggest problem was the number of substitutions*, many of which were nothing similar to what had been cancelled. One of the main reasons HID decided t mask up each week and go and do a shop in store. FIL still has home deliveries as MIL has significant health issues but he is still struggling to not have as much as 5-10% of any order changed/
		
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No issue if you elect not to have substitutions?  We would occasionally ask for them on items like bread or potatoes, but otherwise declined them; one occasion we forgot we simply declined it on the doorstep & got refunded.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We used home deliveries during the last lockdown and the biggest problem was the number of substitutions, many of which were nothing similar to what had been cancelled. One of the main reasons HID decided t mask up each week and go and do a shop in store. FIL still has home deliveries as MIL has significant health issues but he is still struggling to not have as much as 5-10% of any order changed/
		
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We had the same issue then changed from Friday AM to Thursday PM.
The driver told us the crate Packers come in at 4am so for morning delivery the shelf's won't have been restocked and Friday was a busy day for weekend shoppers.

Or it may just be no one else likes the shit we like 😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No issue if you elect not to have substitutions?  We would occasionally ask for them on items like bread or potatoes, but otherwise declined them; one occasion we forgot we simply declined it on the doorstep & got refunded.
		
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I get that and we've done the same but then you're left without items you asked for. Can be a pain if you want specific items to cook a particular menu or it is a store cupboard staple


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 9, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			No issue if you elect not to have substitutions?  We would occasionally ask for them on items like bread or potatoes, but otherwise declined them; one occasion we forgot we simply declined it on the doorstep & got refunded.
		
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Tesco substitutions policy is that the substitution means that you don't pay more. For example if Tesco white bread is not available they will replace it with Hovis white bread but only charge you the Tesco white bread price. Morrisons don't seem to have the same policy. For example, We ordered 100 dishwasher tablets for £11. They weren't available and got substituted for 70 different tablets for £10. But can be simply declined at the door.



HomerJSimpson said:



			I get that and we've done the same but then you're left without items you asked for. Can be a pain if you want specific items to cook a particular menu or it is a store cupboard staple
		
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Had this last week with Morrisons. Had planned to make a fish pie but the frozen fish pie mix wasn't available so they substituted 4 frozen haddock fillets. Had to skip making the fish pie that week.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 9, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I get that and we've done the same but then you're left without items you asked for. Can be a pain if you want specific items to cook a particular menu or it is a store cupboard staple
		
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And if you couldn't get it off the van, what guarantee is there that you could get it off the supermarket shelf?   And if it's that much of a staple for us, there's always one & a spare in our cupboards, it would have to be out of stock for weeks to end up running out of it.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 9, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Well, I for one am not going to play in a shotgun Christmas comp where it's necessary to go into the clubhouse for the prize giving as everyone gives a prize, and everyone gets one, according to their finishing position.

Got Covid written all over it as a great Crissy present 🤔🤔
		
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Just read through this thread. Paid £50 this morning for a function at our Golf club next Friday. What makes everything worse is that the roof came off 2 weeks ago from the high winds and the lounge space reduced by half.  50 people going. Guess what. just phoned up the organiser and cancelled. The power of GM Monthly Forum AND listening to sensible people who post. Thank you


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## Leftitshort (Dec 9, 2021)

Reading this, I genuinely worry about all of you. How do you ever return to normal? Seems that real fear has taken hold. I understand some maybe high risk, but all perspective seems to have gone out of the window


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## IainP (Dec 9, 2021)

This was a bit different...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59577371


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## Billysboots (Dec 9, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Reading this, I genuinely worry about all of you. How do you ever return to normal? Seems that real fear has taken hold. I understand some maybe high risk, but all perspective seems to have gone out of the window
		
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Whilst part of me is minded to agree, I don’t know the demographic of those here who display the caution.

They may be in the senior age bracket, may have significant underlying conditions, or may live with or have regular close contact with someone who ticks those boxes.

For that reason I would never criticise anyone I do not have personal knowledge of if Covid scares them.

Me? I’m 55, have a minor underlying condition, but have within the last couple of months had major cancer surgery (hopefully successful) which has left me feeling like I have gone 15 rounds with Mike Tyson in his prime. Whilst I am not unduly concerned now by Covid, I’d rather not have to find out how I’d cope with it right now if it was to dodge my three doses of Pfizer.


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## Leftitshort (Dec 9, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst part of me is minded to agree, I don’t know the demographic of those here who display the caution.

They may be in the senior age bracket, may have significant underlying conditions, or may live with or have regular close contact with someone who ticks those boxes.

For that reason I would never criticise anyone I do not have personal knowledge of if Covid scares them.

Me? I’m 55, have a minor underlying condition, but have within the last couple of months had cancer surgery (hopefully successful) which has left me feeling like I have gone 15 rounds with Mike Tyson in his prime. Whilst I am not unduly concerned now by Covid, I’d rather not have to find out how I’d cope with it right now if it was to dodge my three doses of Pfizer.
		
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It’s not a criticism as such, and must be demographic specific. I don’t know of any other group that sounds like the previous 3 pages of posts. Not @ work, not @ the golf club, not socially. 
I’m no denier, though some in my social circle are. I’ve worked all the way through & I don’t really get this paralysis of fear. 
I fully get it’s all about risk & perspective. I’m double, soon to be triple jabbed. Will wear a mask, have 2 kids that test twice a week. 
It’s an inconvenience for me, but presents a greater risk for some. 
I just don’t know how, at some time in the future, some on here are gonna carry on living.


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## Billysboots (Dec 9, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s not a criticism as such, and must be demographic specific. I don’t know of any other group that sounds like the previous 3 pages of posts. Not @ work, not @ the golf club, not socially.
I’m no denier, though some in my social circle are. I’ve worked all the way through & I don’t really get this paralysis of fear.
I fully get it’s all about risk & perspective. I’m double, soon to be triple jabbed. Will wear a mask, have 2 kids that test twice a week.
It’s an inconvenience for me, but presents a greater risk for some.
*I just don’t know how, at some time in the future, some on here are gonna carry on living.*

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They’ll find a way. But you need to understand that one or two here know someone who has succumbed to Covid, so their concerns are understandable. And don’t even get me started on the two years of scaremongering which the press and media appear to have taken perverse pleasure in. That has had a bigger impact than I think most of us will ever realise.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 9, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s not a criticism as such, and must be demographic specific. I don’t know of any other group that sounds like the previous 3 pages of posts. Not @ work, not @ the golf club, not socially. 
I’m no denier, though some in my social circle are. I’ve worked all the way through & I don’t really get this paralysis of fear. 
I fully get it’s all about risk & perspective. I’m double, soon to be triple jabbed. Will wear a mask, have 2 kids that test twice a week. 
It’s an inconvenience for me, but presents a greater risk for some. 
I just don’t know how, at some time in the future, some on here are gonna carry on living.
		
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🛐🛐

As one of those (I think) that you have concerns about , it really is quite straightforward for me.,My wife and I are elderly. If we get Covid it's a toss up what might happen, notwithstanding the three jabs. I would bet on a good outcome but it wouldn't be a cert. what would be better is not getting it at this time.
I believe we are heading towards herd immunity and in that respect Covid will become something like flu. Probably like flu it won't be as potent then  and people will likely handle it the same, I.e. Better than now.
As we progress towards that, we can manage the restrictions that Covid is demanding, believing they will lessen. Because we know it is the sensible way to be. Yes, it would be easy to think with "our hormones" ( as I describe heart ruling head), but now is a time for reason and logic.
That keeps us going.
BTW - There is a helluva a difference physically from being 50 or less to being 70 or more, believe me!
I was playing squash at 62, which now seems light years away.😂


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## Leftitshort (Dec 9, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			🛐🛐

As one of those (I think) that you have concerns about , it really is quite straightforward for me.,My wife and I are elderly. If we get Covid it's a toss up what might happen, notwithstanding the three jabs. I would bet on a good outcome but it wouldn't be a cert. what would be better is not getting it at this time.
I believe we are heading towards herd immunity and in that respect Covid will become something like flu. Probably like flu it won't be as potent then  and people will likely handle it the same, I.e. Better than now.
As we progress towards that, we can manage the restrictions that Covid is demanding, believing they will lessen. Because we know it is the sensible way to be. Yes, it would be easy to think with "our hormones" ( as I describe heart ruling head), but now is a time for reason and logic.
That keeps us going.
BTW - There is a helluva a difference physically from being 50 or less to being 70 or more, believe me!
I was playing squash at 62, which now seems light years away.😂
		
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Thanks for sharing. I don’t want to sound as if I’m saying we should just get on with it, because I’m not. It’s good to understand the impact the last 2 years have had. Sometimes we’re a little guilty of living in a echo chamber


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Thanks for sharing. I don’t want to sound as if I’m saying we should just get on with it, because I’m not. It’s good to understand the impact the last 2 years have had. Sometimes we’re a little guilty of living in a echo chamber
		
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I guess my take on it is that I've missed seeing our children and grand children,  holidays, theatre shows , holidays, days out etc etc and it seems to me that despite having 3 jabs it would be foolish to be careless about Covid enough to catch it now. For that reason, and until it is safer to do so, I'd rather not mix for, say, a golf lunch that missing it would not be a problem but doing it could still be a killer.


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## Scoobiesnax (Dec 10, 2021)

So a little bit of a rant.  Booked my booster jab for yesterday evening; left work a tad early to get to vaccine centre in Bas Vegas with time to spare.  Get to the entrance where I overhear the security on the door turn another gentleman away as they are offering Moderna only as the booster jab and you have to have had a clear 6 months after your 2nd dose before you can have it (security gentleman's statement).  So low and behold, I haven't met the threshold either; turned away slightly pissed off mumbling under my breathe - called the NHS a few choice words as I trudged back to my car, like the little duck that appears on Aussie TV when a batsman is out for nought!  Now I have no idea if I should rebook as I can't be ars*d walking up to another vaccine centre and turned away because they only serving up the Moderna.  Is there any way of finding out what concoction is being served up before booking?


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Reading this, I genuinely worry about all of you. How do you ever return to normal? Seems that real fear has taken hold. I understand some maybe high risk, but all perspective seems to have gone out of the window
		
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I think there are some that have overreacted at both ends of the spectrum. Some will have retreated to the back of their cave, whilst others might be perceived as being reckless. The science and the stats clearly show there is a risk, and the potential outcome could be …. terminal.

I’ll be honest, I’m nervous. I’m over 60. I have diabetes and a dodgy ticker, and I’m 3+years recovering from bowel cancer. My better half suffers from colitis and an overactive thyroid. Do we lock ourselves away? I feel we manage the risk well. We still go out for the odd meal/drink but we choose venues that are quieter, preferably sat out on a terrace. No doubt we’ll spread our wings as we feel more comfortable with the (changing) risk.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 10, 2021)

Scoobiesnax said:



			So a little bit of a rant.  Booked my booster jab for yesterday evening; left work a tad early to get to vaccine centre in Bas Vegas with time to spare.  Get to the entrance where I overhear the security on the door turn another gentleman away as they are offering Moderna only as the booster jab and you have to have had a clear 6 months after your 2nd dose before you can have it (security gentleman's statement).  So low and behold, I haven't met the threshold either; turned away slightly pissed off mumbling under my breathe - called the NHS a few choice words as I trudged back to my car, like the little duck that appears on Aussie TV when a batsman is out for nought!  Now I have no idea if I should rebook as I can't be ars*d walking up to another vaccine centre and turned away because they only serving up the Moderna.  Is there any way of finding out what concoction is being served up before booking?
		
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The rules have changed, you now need to be at least 3 months after your second jab to get the booster

What’s the issue with Moderna?


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## Ethan (Dec 10, 2021)

Scoobiesnax said:



			So a little bit of a rant.  Booked my booster jab for yesterday evening; left work a tad early to get to vaccine centre in Bas Vegas with time to spare.  Get to the entrance where I overhear the security on the door turn another gentleman away as they are offering Moderna only as the booster jab and you have to have had a clear 6 months after your 2nd dose before you can have it (security gentleman's statement).  So low and behold, I haven't met the threshold either; turned away slightly pissed off mumbling under my breathe - called the NHS a few choice words as I trudged back to my car, like the little duck that appears on Aussie TV when a batsman is out for nought!  Now I have no idea if I should rebook as I can't be ars*d walking up to another vaccine centre and turned away because they only serving up the Moderna.  Is there any way of finding out what concoction is being served up before booking?
		
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What is your complaint exactly, that they were offering Moderna only? Why is that a problem?

You had a booking so the system had confirmed you as eligible. You could have stayed and got it.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 10, 2021)

Scoobiesnax said:



			So a little bit of a rant.  Booked my booster jab for yesterday evening; left work a tad early to get to vaccine centre in Bas Vegas with time to spare.  Get to the entrance where I overhear the security on the door turn another gentleman away as they are offering Moderna only as the booster jab and you have to have had a clear 6 months after your 2nd dose before you can have it (security gentleman's statement).  So low and behold, I haven't met the threshold either; turned away slightly pissed off mumbling under my breathe - called the NHS a few choice words as I trudged back to my car, like the little duck that appears on Aussie TV when a batsman is out for nought!  Now I have no idea if I should rebook as I can't be ars*d walking up to another vaccine centre and turned away because they only serving up the Moderna.  Is there any way of finding out what concoction is being served up before booking?
		
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Booked mine online when invited to do so. Turned up at the appointment, it was 4 days inside the 6 months (before the change to 3 months) they questioned it, I said the computer arranged it. They mumbled to each other, same as previous person, shrugged shoulders and stuck the needle in. If you booked through the govt system then you had a valid appt. 

What's wrong with Moderna? They won't necessarily give you the same as you had before


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## Scoobiesnax (Dec 10, 2021)

I have no idea what the issue was.  The security on the door said we couldn't have it - end of, no getting in.  Why would I think otherwise, and why would I argue? Like I said I wasn't the only one getting turned away.  Just turned around and trudged off.

edit - wish I had taken a pic now so I could have shown it but there was a notice saying anyone who had their 2nd dose after a certain date couldn't get the booster.


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## Ethan (Dec 10, 2021)

Scoobiesnax said:



			I have no idea what the issue was.  The security on the door said we couldn't have it - end of, no getting in.  Why would I think otherwise, and why would I argue? Like I said I wasn't the only one getting turned away.  Just turned around and trudged off.

edit - wish I had taken a pic now so I could have shown it but there was a notice saying anyone who had their 2nd dose after a certain date couldn't get the booster.
		
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OK, you need to go back, ask to speak to a supervisor, tell them what happened and say you want the booster now.

Moderna and Pfizer are the only boosters available, because they are most effective, regardless of what you had before. Moderna may be slightly better but there is not much in it. Mixing vaccinations, known as heterologous vaccination is better than using the same brand throughout, a bit like cross-training your immunity. It is especially good for people who got AZ first time round.


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## D-S (Dec 10, 2021)

For a couple of different reasons I don't really like the phrase 'tsunami of infections'.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 10, 2021)

Here we go again another new variant and decisions to take ?. 
We were planning our Xmas bevy day in the dirty bar next Friday , capacity 40 odd.  .
Simulator room booked for an hour, max 4 players allowed in at same time,  playing a few nearest the pins at some well known par 3s.
Probably maximum 10 of us, all are at least double jabbed, 6 have had their boosters weeks ago 1 still to get his next week.
 Thing is, 4 of us play usually 2/3 times a week and sit for a quick snifter afterwards
Should we go or should we not .

There's a possibility the Scottish government will bring in new regulations ,and make the decision for us .

What's the point of all the vaccinations if we still have to isolate anyway ??


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## Billysboots (Dec 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			What's the point of all the vaccinations if we still have to isolate anyway ??
		
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It is precisely this point which has prompted so many of my friends, golfing and otherwise, to say they will ignore any future lockdown.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			It is precisely this point which has prompted so many of my friends, golfing and otherwise, to say they will ignore any future lockdown.
		
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Do they believe it's all a conspiracy to make life difficult for them, or it's best to lock away anyone who's vulnerable so the rest can go down the pub.   Will they ignore it, really!


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## Billysboots (Dec 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do they believe it's all a conspiracy to make life difficult for them, or it's best to lock away anyone who's vulnerable so the rest can go down the pub.   Will they ignore it, really!
		
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Their argument seems to be exactly as stated. Why have they endured months of restrictions and lockdowns, whilst they awaited the development and rollout of vaccines, only to have to endure further lockdowns once they have had their jabs?

I’m not saying I agree with them, but I’m certainly hearing a lot of people say the same. They’ve not been triple jabbed to get confined to barracks each and every time a new variant arrives.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Their argument seems to be exactly as stated. Why have they endured months of restrictions and lockdowns, whilst they awaited the development and rollout of vaccines, only to have to endure further lockdowns once they have had their jabs?

I’m not saying I agree with them, but I’m certainly hearing a lot of people say the same. They’ve not been triple jabbed to get confined to barracks each and every time a new variant arrives.
		
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It's the nature of the virus, we can't beat it by ignoring it.  There's always a chance variants will turn up that will make them more vulnerable.  We've heard people saying this previously and a small minority will probably try it on but most people conform.  If the pubs shut you can't go in there, it's just law and order really.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do they believe it's all a conspiracy to make life difficult for them, or it's best to lock away anyone who's vulnerable so the rest can go down the pub.   Will they ignore it, really!
		
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I don't believe it's a conspiracy, I gladly took all my jabs as soon as they were available and will take any new jabs as they're developed and won't ignore government advice.
But surely there must be some way to kill this virus in the air without killing ourselves.
We can kill it on our hands and other surfaces using various household products.
Silly question but wouldn't finding some kind of SAFE air spraying conditioning be a better option.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 10, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I don't believe it's a conspiracy, I gladly took all my jabs as soon as they were available and will take any new jabs as they're developed and won't ignore government advice.
But surely there must be some way to kill this virus in the air without killing ourselves.
We can kill it on our hands and other surfaces using various household products.
Silly question but wouldn't some kind of SAFE air spraying conditioning be a better option.
		
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How about bleach vaccinations 😉


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## williamalex1 (Dec 10, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How about bleach vaccinations 😉
		
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Ok, sign me up I've always liked blondes in the open air .
 Maybe Trump was right


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## 4LEX (Dec 10, 2021)

Currently isolating after the girl I've been dating has tested positive for Omicron. Found out while I was playing golf today but luckily on my own so trudged off and got a PCR.


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## Hobbit (Dec 10, 2021)

New variant found in France, all in one town at present. No one admitted to hospital.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			It is precisely this point which has prompted so many of my friends, golfing and otherwise, to say they will ignore any future lockdown.
		
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Because unfortunately for your friends, a virus neither cares nor bothers about how cheesed off I might be about living with measures to try and restrict its spread, and simply shrugs when I indignantly declare that I am doubly and booster vaccinated.  If it can get to me then it will take its chances and see how infected and ill it can make me, then use me as a transport mechanism to others as it seeks more victims.  It really shouldn’t be (and isn’t) that difficult for your friends to understand.


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## DanFST (Dec 11, 2021)

Had a cracking Christmas office social. probably 200 people, first time since 2019. Great drinks, Black tie. Fantastic.

All my company tested negative on lateral flow before, and had to present covid passes. Wasn't intrusive. Just like showing ID at a club. Not a fan of restrictions, but the being able to take a free lateral flow is no biggie at all. First time things have felt normal.


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## 4LEX (Dec 11, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Had a cracking Christmas office social. probably 200 people, first time since 2019. Great drinks, Black tie. Fantastic.

All my company tested negative on lateral flow before, and had to present covid passes. Wasn't intrusive. Just like showing ID at a club. Not a fan of restrictions, but the being able to take a free lateral flow is no biggie at all. First time things have felt normal.
		
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I felt that a few weeks ago at Winter Wonderland and the theatre then the pings went off. Lateral flows are almost worthless, so many people I know have delivered negatives for days and tested positive on a PCR in the last few weeks alone. At least your 10 day isolation will be over before Christmas!


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## chellie (Dec 11, 2021)

Isn't it still possible to take a lateral flow test at home, have a positive result and register it as negative. When I had to do one you just said that you'd had a negative result. No actual proof needed. Has this been changed? 

I have to have PCR tests at work so don't do the LFT's.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because unfortunately for your friends, a virus neither cares nor bothers about how cheesed off I might be about living with measures to try and restrict its spread, and simply shrugs when I indignantly declare that I am doubly and booster vaccinated.  If it can get to me then it will take its chances and see how infected and ill it can make me, then use me as a transport mechanism to others as it seeks more victims.  It really shouldn’t be (and isn’t) that difficult for your friends to understand.
		
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I will just add that *at the moment* i do not believe the circumstances and the evidence in respect of the omicron virus merit a further lockdown, but if the government require that and I am convinced by the scientific and medical communities that the scientific evidence supports such, then I will comply.  And believe me, there is much that will make me doubt the motives of this government and that I could easily use as an excuse to not comply, but comply I strongly suspect I would.


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will just add that at the moment i do not believe the circumstances and the evidence in respect of the omicron virus merit a further lockdown, but if the government require that *and I am convinced by the scientific and medical communities that the scientific evidence supports such, then I will comply.*  And believe me, there is much that will make me doubt the motives of this government and that I could easily use as an excuse to not comply, but comply I strongly suspect I would.
		
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And if you're not convinced?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 11, 2021)

chellie said:



			Isn't it still possible to take a lateral flow test at home, have a positive result and register it as negative. When I had to do one you just said that you'd had a negative result. No actual proof needed. Has this been changed?

I have to have PCR tests at work so don't do the LFT's.
		
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Wife was saying a lot of her colleagues are getting positives on their LFT then negative PCR , happened to a colleague of mine aswell.

I met up with my cousin yesterday, his sister moved to Abu Dhabi in the summer and he was saying how strict they are over there 

PCR test every 3 days think he said. With results sent to government, can't go anywhere without them

Masks enforced strickly. Fined if you don't have one on etc


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Masks enforced strickly. Fined if you don't have one on etc
		
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Especially when you're dancing


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## Billysboots (Dec 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because unfortunately for your friends, a virus neither cares nor bothers about how cheesed off I might be about living with measures to try and restrict its spread, and simply shrugs when I indignantly declare that I am doubly and booster vaccinated.  If it can get to me then it will take its chances and see how infected and ill it can make me, then use me as a transport mechanism to others as it seeks more victims.  It really shouldn’t be (and isn’t) that difficult for your friends to understand.
		
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I know. But thanks for pointing it out.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 11, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Had a cracking Christmas office social. probably 200 people, first time since 2019. Great drinks, Black tie. Fantastic.

All my company tested negative on lateral flow before, and had to present covid passes. Wasn't intrusive. Just like showing ID at a club. Not a fan of restrictions, but the being able to take a free lateral flow is no biggie at all. First time things have felt normal.
		
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had similar on Thursday - circa 100 people, all had covid test on the day or night before. Graet set up at the HAC in the City - stunning place, great company and lots of cheap booze!


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## Billysboots (Dec 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will just add that *at the moment* i do not believe the circumstances and the evidence in respect of the omicron virus merit a further lockdown, but if the government require that and I am convinced by the scientific and medical communities that the scientific evidence supports such, then I will comply.  And believe me, there is much that will make me doubt the motives of this government and that I could easily use as an excuse to not comply, but comply I strongly suspect I would.
		
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And you have the temerity to criticise my friends? Have a word with yourself.


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## Billysboots (Dec 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And if you're not convinced?
		
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Then he’ll do the same as some of my friends. The friends he has chastised as though they were toddlers.

The hypocrisy in the second post, after a night’s sleep, is staggering.


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## road2ruin (Dec 11, 2021)

With regards any further restrictions that can be placed I’m not entirely sure how much further the Government could go. Obviously they have the power to announce a full lockdown but how many would actually listen to that? I’d guess a fraction of those that did in March of last year. They’re definitely not going to want to close down hospitality and retail again so I guess they can extend the offer as of Vaccine Passports to any indoor setting. 

I think that if they tried to restrict people seeing friends and families again that’d be the point where a considerable number stop listening and start deciding what to follow based on their own personal circumstances. My parents are in the mid 70’s and healthy, they’ve already said that they’re not going through another Christmas like last year so this year will happen regardless. They are boostered up and as protected as they can be. Again, with friends as long as people are happy to mix we will
continue to do so.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because unfortunately for your friends, a virus neither cares nor bothers about how cheesed off I might be about living with measures to try and restrict its spread, and simply shrugs when I indignantly declare that I am doubly and booster vaccinated.  If it can get to me then it will take its chances and see how infected and ill it can make me, then use me as a transport mechanism to others as it seeks more victims.  *It really shouldn’t be (and isn’t) that difficult for your friends to understand.*

Click to expand...

Somewhat condescending, but not surprising, for you to suggest they don't understand; I'm sure they understand perfectly.  I'm equally sure that they are somewhat peed off that those who impose the lockdowns seem to think it doesn't apply to them.  I am extremely peed off with some of the news that is coming out. 

It doesn't make their thoughts right, and it doesn't mean I agree with them, condone them or will join them, but I can perfectly understand why they feel like that and why they would think like that, having made sacrifices that others seem to think they are exempt from.


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## D-S (Dec 11, 2021)

If the vaccine booster roll out goes as planned and all adults have been triple jabbed (or refused) by end of January, I am interested then to see if any recent restrictions will be lifted or will the permanent threat of the next variant of concern mean that it is only sensible to continue to be vigilant/cautious/careful. If so, then I think there may well be compliance issues as this would appear to be a semi permanent set of rules.


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## Ethan (Dec 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			It is precisely this point which has prompted so many of my friends, golfing and otherwise, to say they will ignore any future lockdown.
		
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Your friends may be willing to be reckless with their personal health and that of their families, but what gives them the right to do the same for other people, or to risk blocking NHS hospital or ICU beds? A typical Covid ICU patient is in there for some weeks, and every one of them blocks an ICU bed for someone who needs a surgical procedure that requires post-operative ICU. Those patients usually need 2 or 3 days ICU, but their operations are being cancelled if there isn't an ICU bed available, so one reckless Covidiot can stop 5 or 6 such operations. That is probably the same Covidiot who is whining about the effect of restrictions on people with other illnesses, not realising they are possibly going to contribute to the very same problem.

Some degree of social responsibility and maturity is needed here. You might not think wearing a mask is necessary, but if a shop owner asks you to wear one, it is an act of ignorance and gross discourtesy, at the very least, not to do so.


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## Billysboots (Dec 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Your friends may be willing to be reckless with their personal health and that of their families, but what gives them the right to do the same for other people, or to risk blocking NHS hospital or ICU beds? A typical Covid ICU patient is in there for some weeks, and every one of them blocks an ICU bed for someone who needs a surgical procedure that requires post-operative ICU. Those patients usually need 2 or 3 days ICU, but their operations are being cancelled if there isn't an ICU bed available, so one reckless Covidiot can stop 5 or 6 such operations. That is probably the same Covidiot who is whining about the effect of restrictions on people with other illnesses, not realising they are possibly going to contribute to the very same problem.

Some degree of social responsibility and maturity is needed here. You might not think wearing a mask is necessary, but if a shop owner asks you to wear one, it is an act of ignorance and gross discourtesy, at the very least, not to do so.
		
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I don’t disagree with anything you say.


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2021)

The more people get vaccinated, the fewer 'hosts' the virus will find and the fewer new variants we will see.

If anyone is fed up with lockdowns, don't blame the scientists or the government, blame the misinformed.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The more people get vaccinated, the fewer 'hosts' the virus will find and the fewer new variants we will see.

If anyone is fed up with lockdowns, don't blame the scientists or the government,* blame the misinformed*.
		
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And those in charge who seem to operate the "do as I say not as I do " policy.
At the start, the mantra was "we are all in this together", well just like Animal Farm..."everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others".

I have no problem with us all trying to do our best to beat the virus, but unless everyone buys into it the fight will be prolonged indefinately. And that's regardless of colour, creed, status, wealth level or whatever else you can think of.


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## bobmac (Dec 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And those in charge who seem to operate the "do as I say not as I do " policy.
		
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The virus doesn't care and other peoples behaviour doesn't affect what I do.
If someone thinks ''well if they can do it, so can I'', then we're going to be stuck with this for years.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And those in charge who seem to operate the "do as I say not as I do " policy.
At the start, the mantra was "we are all in this together", well just like Animal Farm..."everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others".

I have no problem with us all trying to do our best to beat the virus, but unless everyone buys into it the fight will be prolonged indefinately. And that's regardless of colour, creed, status, wealth level or whatever else you can think of.
		
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If a few people (whoever they are) act irresponsibly is that a reason for people to jump on the bandwagon.   Complain about it by all means but surely were intelligent enough to know such behaviour is wrong and stupid.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			If a few people (whoever they are) act irresponsibly is that a reason for people to jump on the bandwagon.   Complain about it by all means but surely were intelligent enough to know such behaviour is wrong and stupid.
		
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I don’t think it’s about our intelligence, it’s more about their trust and credibility.

I believe I can put my hand on my heart and say I have done 99.9% of what has been asked, I couldn’t attend my brother’s funeral, we had to turn family away from my m-in-laws funeral, is it really any hardship to ask those in authority to behave while we suffer.

I will carry on doing what is asked, but these people (if they haven’t behaved) need to be brought to account.


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## drdel (Dec 11, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Your friends may be willing to be reckless with their personal health and that of their families, but what gives them the right to do the same for other people, or to risk blocking NHS hospital or ICU beds? A typical Covid ICU patient is in there for some weeks, and every one of them blocks an ICU bed for someone who needs a surgical procedure that requires post-operative ICU. Those patients usually need 2 or 3 days ICU, but their operations are being cancelled if there isn't an ICU bed available, so one reckless Covidiot can stop 5 or 6 such operations. That is probably the same Covidiot who is whining about the effect of restrictions on people with other illnesses, not realising they are possibly going to contribute to the very same problem.

Some degree of social responsibility and maturity is needed here. You might not think wearing a mask is necessary, but if a shop owner asks you to wear one, it is an act of ignorance and gross discourtesy, at the very least, not to do so.
		
Click to expand...

I agree completely

I am in amazement that people moan about 'stuff' that should be common sense. Infectious diseases containment procedures are well known and must be respected by minimising interaction. However it seems the numpties continually look for  ways to behave that counter good medical sense and they examine the fine print of any public information or social responsibility mostly to make mischief or give themselves a minute of fame.

Gawd help us....


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t think it’s about our intelligence, it’s more about their trust and credibility.

I believe I can put my hand on my heart and say I have done 99.9% of what has been asked, I couldn’t attend my brother’s funeral, we had to turn family away from my m-in-laws funeral, is it really any hardship to ask those in authority to behave while we suffer.

I will carry on doing what is asked, but these people (if they haven’t behaved) need to be brought to account.
		
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Very laudable, but I reckon 90% of the population have done something (however small) to contravene Covid regulations over the past 2 years, are we going on a witch hunt?


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## drdel (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Very laudable, but I reckon 90% of the population have done something (however small) to contravene Covid regulations over the past 2 years, are we going on a witch hunt?
		
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But just because a few idiots jump of the proverbial cliff surely the obvious stupidity of the act should not encourage other people to do the same...


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			But just because a few idiots jump of the proverbial cliff surely the obvious stupidity of the act should not encourage other people to do the same...
		
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Precisely


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Very laudable, but I reckon 90% of the population have done something (however small) to contravene Covid regulations over the past 2 years, are we going on a witch hunt?
		
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I can’t prove or disprove the 90% Chris, you could spot on or way out, but for me that is still nothing to do with those in positions of power abusing said power.

I’m very much “old school” in expecting anyone in such roles to lead by example.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			But just because a few idiots jump of the proverbial cliff surely the obvious stupidity of the act should not encourage other people to do the same...
		
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I agree, but we should be talking about getting to the truth not what action some idiots may or may not take.


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			I can’t prove or disprove the 90% Chris, you could spot on or way out, but for me that is still nothing to do with those in positions of power abusing said power.

I’m very much “old school” in expecting anyone in such roles to lead by example.
		
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 So the question is, if the Queen drunk a bottle of vodka and drives round the M25 at 120mph is it alright for everyone to follow suit because, all I see is,  "if its alright for them then I should be able to do it"


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So the question is, if the Queen drunk a bottle of vodka and drives round the M25 at 120mph is it alright for everyone to follow suit because, all I see is,  "if its alright for them then I should be able to do it"
		
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Of course not, but if the Queen was found guilty and disciplined for doing that, I don’t think the next time she came on TV and told us to not drink and drive we’d take much notice.

Or are we saying “do as I say not do as I do” is ok?


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course not, but if the Queen was found guilty and disciplined for doing that, I don’t think the next time she came on TV and told us to not drink and drive we’d take much notice.

Or are we saying “do as I say not do as I do” is ok?
		
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I wouldn't do it because I know it would be wrong and even if the entire royal family drove in a convoy in that state, I would still not copy them because I know it's wrong. I am just arguing the "if they can do it why cant I " question


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			But just because a few idiots jump of the proverbial cliff surely the obvious stupidity of the act should not encourage other people to do the same...
		
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It shouldn’t but couple a restless annnoyed population witnessing the very law makers, officials, rich people, modellers do things they’ve told the plebs not to do for nearly two years I’ll think you’ll find not only encouragement but a free pass.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I wouldn't do it because I know it would be wrong and even if the entire royal family drove in a convoy in that state, I would still not copy them because I know it's wrong. I am just arguing the "if they can do it why cant I " question
		
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Trust and credibility, next time it may only be advice or a request and if it’s coming from someone you have no faith in then they are wasting their time.


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## IanM (Dec 11, 2021)

Just had my booster....  hardly felt a thing.  

I'm just off to howl at the moon now!


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## Ethan (Dec 11, 2021)

drdel said:



			But just because a few idiots jump of the proverbial cliff surely the obvious stupidity of the act should not encourage other people to do the same...
		
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No, it shouldn't, but copious evidence that it will, and those that are doing the stuff we are concerned about understand this better than most, because they exploit it all the time.


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## arnieboy (Dec 11, 2021)

12 of us sitting together in the golf club bar discussing whether or not 12 of us should sit together in the dining room for our Christmas meal after golf on Monday. Oh the irony.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 11, 2021)

Been to see my parents today, they spent 3 hours down town yesterday. I have told them in no uncertain terms that December this year is the same as December last year. They have to reel it in. It has not gone down to well. It is what it is unfortunately


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			And those in charge who seem to operate the "do as I say not as I do " policy.
At the start, the mantra was "we are all in this together", well just like Animal Farm..."everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others".

I have no problem with us all trying to do our best to beat the virus, but unless everyone buys into it the fight will be prolonged indefinately. And that's regardless of colour, creed, status, wealth level or whatever else you can think of.
		
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Have I missed something, or not up to date, but it seems to me that the situation is this at the moment.
There is strong allegation that there was a No.10 Xmas party (against restriction requirements). It is officially denied.
The video of a woman who seemed half drunk to me has been taken as evidence there was?  Whatever it was, it was in really bad taste, but it didn't seem to me to prove  there was a party.
There is an enquiry ongoing.
So, we have got strong allegations , fuelled by the media, but as yet no admission, nor proof.
But a helluva lot of people have decided there was a party. And gone on to say " Therefore why should I comply with restrictions and advice now? ( notwithstanding the doubling every two or three days of infections of Omicron, and the feared increase in ICU beds takeup)

I agree, anger is justified, IF it turns out there was a party.
But not the " I won't comply because of it."   

Much as some dislike this Government, it is not imposing restrictions for any other reason but to stop this virus' worst effects.

Logic and responsibility by each of us, regardless of others behaviour ,must be the main thought, surely?


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## DanFST (Dec 11, 2021)

Last year, I could have a boozy lunch with lots of colleagues. The majority couldn't sit next to someone not in their household. How is that fair? 

You are right, but how could you rationalise that to someone? 



bobmac said:



			The virus doesn't care and other peoples behaviour doesn't affect what I do.
If someone thinks ''well if they can do it, so can I'', then we're going to be stuck with this for years.
		
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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Have I missed something, or not up to date, but it seems to me that the situation is this at the moment.
There is strong allegation that there was a No.10 Xmas party (against restriction requirements). It is officially denied.
The video of a woman who seemed half drunk to me has been taken as evidence there was?  Whatever it was, it was in really bad taste, but it didn't seem to me to prove  there was a party.
There is an enquiry ongoing.
So, we have got strong allegations , fuelled by the media, but as yet no admission, nor proof.
But a helluva lot of people have decided there was a party. And gone on to say " Therefore why should I comply with restrictions and advice now? ( notwithstanding the doubling every two or three days of infections of Omicron, and the feared increase in ICU beds takeup)

I agree, anger is justified, IF it turns out there was a party.
But not the " I won't comply because of it." 

Much as some dislike this Government, it is not imposing restrictions for any other reason but to stop this virus' worst effects.

Logic and responsibility by each of us, regardless of others behaviour ,must be the main thought, surely?
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps my point is lost....
I am not looking for excuses to disobey the guidance for any other reason than I don't want to catch the thing, bring it home or spend time off work with it . I am pointing out (obviously missed) that those who make the rules should obey those same rules WITHOUT QUESTION and without trying to wriggle out of something.

We had Cummins and Barnard Castle, various MP's and ministers and now No10. Is it any wonder some dont follow the rules whether they are thick, ignorant, selfish or just a conspiarcy theorist?

Lead by example...not by decree.


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## DanFST (Dec 11, 2021)

Not to mention the Parliament bar was open.....It only stopped serving booze because people complained. 




Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps my point is lost....
I am not looking for excuses to disobey the guidance for any other reason than I don't want to catch the thing, bring it home or spend time off work with it . I am pointing out (obviously missed) that those who make the rules should obey those same rules WITHOUT QUESTION and without trying to wriggle out of something.

We had Cummins and Barnard Castle, various MP's and ministers and now No10. Is it any wonder some dont follow the rules whether they are thick, ignorant, selfish or just a conspiarcy theorist?

Lead by example...not by decree.
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps my point is lost....
I am not looking for excuses to disobey the guidance for any other reason than I don't want to catch the thing, bring it home or spend time off work with it . I am pointing out (obviously missed) that those who make the rules should obey those same rules WITHOUT QUESTION and without trying to wriggle out of something.

We had Cummins and Barnard Castle, various MP's and ministers and now No10. Is it any wonder some dont follow the rules whether they are thick, ignorant, selfish or just a conspiarcy theorist?

Lead by example...not by decree.
		
Click to expand...

Do you know something we don't?
There are allegations of a party, I've to date seen no evidence or heard anyone admitting anything, you however have made your mind up it's happened.

The media have been in full feeding frenzy this last week and so many are now speaking as if there's no doubt over the allegations.  It may be untrue, it may have been just a few people in an office who work together having a glass of wine and a mince pie, it may have been a debaucherous orgy, who knows!  Hopefully the truth will be revealed but for gawd sake, surely there's more important things to be concerned about at the moment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you know something we don't?
There are allegations of a party, I've to date seen no evidence or heard anyone admitting anything, you however have made your mind up it's happened.

The media have been in full feeding frenzy this last week and so many are now speaking as if there's no doubt over the allegations.  It may be untrue, it may have been just a few people in an office who work together having a glass of wine and a mince pie, it may have been a debaucherous orgy, who knows!  Hopefully the truth will be revealed but for gawd sake, surely there's more important things to be concerned about at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

8 parties/drinks/functions etc now being discussed.
The Treasurey admitted today they had impromtu drinks after the budget.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...amid-row-over-downing-street-parties-12492475

We have had absolute denials for weeks and now the PM orders an investigation, maybe, just maybe he should of order the investigation at the beginning of the allegations snd the media wouldn’t be in full feeding frenzy.

Sad fact is, even these people deserved a drink or not, so long as they’re not hiding it or believing the rules don’t apply to them then crack on so long as any socialising was done under Covid rules at the time.

I genuinely believe people are sick of half truths or being treated like idiots.

Have the investigation and prove there’s nothing to hide.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Of course not, but if the Queen was found guilty and disciplined for doing that, I don’t think the next time she came on TV and told us to not drink and drive we’d take much notice.

Or are we saying “do as I say not do as I do” is ok?
		
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Good God man,  people break laws every day, many do it. Many cheat the benefit system.
What's with the subliminal suggestion in your post that it is OK ,therefore, for others to do it. ?


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 11, 2021)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Perhaps my point is lost....
I am not looking for excuses to disobey the guidance for any other reason than I don't want to catch the thing, bring it home or spend time off work with it . I am pointing out (obviously missed) that those who make the rules should obey those same rules WITHOUT QUESTION and without trying to wriggle out of something.

We had Cummins and Barnard Castle, various MP's and ministers and now No10. Is it any wonder some dont follow the rules whether they are thick, ignorant, selfish or just a conspiarcy theorist?

Lead by example...not by decree.
		
Click to expand...

Somewhere in my post, you will see I agree with you. If they had the party it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms. What I'm saying is that doesn't mean others should feel justified in breaking the same rules.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Good God man,  people break laws every day, many do it. Many cheat the benefit system.
What's with the subliminal suggestion in your post that it is OK ,therefore, for others to do it. ?
		
Click to expand...

What are you on about, I was answering ChrisD, keep up!


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			What are you on about, I was answering ChrisD, keep up!
		
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Appreciate who you and Chris were discussing as a make belief drink driver😂,  but the principles were still the same subject.
However, we have both made several posts giving our views, so perhaps it's time for a rest.
See? You're right - I can't keep up😂   ( too old)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Appreciate who you and Chris were discussing as a make belief drink driver😂,  but the principles were still the same subject.
However, we have both made several posts giving our views, so perhaps it's time for a rest.
See? You're right - I can't keep up😂   ( too old)
		
Click to expand...

Or maybe I’ll decide for myself (if I stay within forum rules) when I’ll rest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			And if you're not convinced?
		
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If I am not convinced by Prof Whitty and Dr Vallance when it has been, and will continue to be the case, that I *want* to be convinced by them, then we have serious problems. I must say that, unfortunately, there was something about Whitty’s delivery and demeanour in the Thursday briefing that I found a bit unconvincing…but I went with him, and I was good with Vallance…more than that I cannot say as it drifts into the political.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Then he’ll do the same as some of my friends. The friends he has chastised as though they were toddlers.

The hypocrisy in the second post, after a night’s sleep, is staggering.
		
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Wrong, I will not.  I believe that I will continue to follow all guidance and all that is asked of my but I cannot say at this time that that will continue for ever because I cannot look into the future and how I will feel about things in 3, 6, 9 months time or whatever.  My post last night simply addressed the fact of viral spread, my post earlier addressed how I feel at the moment given what we know about the omicron virus.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			8 parties/drinks/functions etc now being discussed.
The Treasurey admitted today they had impromtu drinks after the budget.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...amid-row-over-downing-street-parties-12492475

We have had absolute denials for weeks and now the PM orders an investigation, maybe, just maybe he should of order the investigation at the beginning of the allegations snd the media wouldn’t be in full feeding frenzy.

Sad fact is, even these people deserved a drink or not, so long as they’re not hiding it or believing the rules don’t apply to them then crack on so long as any socialising was done under Covid rules at the time.

I genuinely believe people are sick of half truths or being treated like idiots.

Have the investigation and prove there’s nothing to hide.
		
Click to expand...

But it's still allegations and I suspect being blown out of all proportion.

It's currently a feeding frenzy and a Witch hunt that the media are blowing out of proportion as usual. 
If anyone had a real party and were found culpable then ok they should be disciplined, in the meantime it's just another boring re-padded headline.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Or maybe I’ll decide for myself (if I stay within forum rules) when I’ll rest.

Click to expand...

Trying to make light  and attempting to introduce a bit of humour into a discussion doesn't seem to work with some.🙄


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 11, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's still allegations and I suspect being blown out of all proportion.

It's currently a feeding frenzy and a Witch hunt that the media are blowing out of proportion as usual.
If anyone had a real party and were found culpable then ok they should be disciplined, *in the meantime it's just another boring re-padded headline.*

Click to expand...

The Treasurey one isn’t an allegation and without the investigation announcing their findings I’m some what surprised you are so definitive with your views.

Personally I’ll wait until the findings come out as there are far bigger problems that need seeing to and we don’t public confidence being knocked back any further.


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## Ethan (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The Treasurey one isn’t an allegation and without the investigation announcing their findings I’m some what surprised you are so definitive with your views.

Personally I’ll wait until the findings come out as there are far bigger problems that need seeing to and we don’t public confidence being knocked back any further.
		
Click to expand...

The findings have been written already. The only question is whether there will be a tame functionary sacrificed to appease the media, or whether it will be a complete snow job. The Cabinet Sec is well house-trained.


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## Billysboots (Dec 11, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wrong, I will not.  I believe that I will continue to follow all guidance and all that is asked of my but I cannot say at this time that that will continue for ever because I cannot look into the future and how I will feel about things in 3, 6, 9 months time or whatever.  My post last night simply addressed the fact of viral spread, my post earlier addressed how I feel at the moment given what we know about the omicron virus.
		
Click to expand...

Enormously hypocritical, however you try and extricate yourself.

You openly slag my friends off, some of whom have suggested they may not adhere to future lockdowns for a variety iof reasons, and now you yourself acknowledge that you don’t know you will feel about things in the future? In the same post you say you won’t defy future lockdowns, and then go on to say you don’t know how you’ll act. Which is it, man?

I’m staggered that you can be so patronising and condescending of people you don’t even know, when you are absolutely no different from any of them.

Priceless.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			And you have the temerity to criticise my friends? Have a word with yourself.
		
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oh excuse me for explaining how virus’s aren’t bothered about how we feel, and that for the time being I am content with going with what the experts are telling me…and that I cannot foresee me going against the advice of the experts but that I cannot rule it out.  of course I can’t.  But it is not now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

bobmac said:



			The virus doesn't care and other peoples behaviour doesn't affect what I do.
If someone thinks ''well if they can do it, so can I'', then we're going to be stuck with this for years.
		
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.


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## Hobbit (Dec 11, 2021)

When is a party not a party? What defines a ‘party.’ The dictionary definition is pretty clear. A gathering of people in a social setting.

”We“ were told it was only cheese and wine. Alcohol at a business meeting, really? Oh c’mon, it might not have been a wild party but it was most definitely a party.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 11, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			The Treasurey one isn’t an allegation and without the investigation announcing their findings I’m some what surprised you are so definitive with your views.

Personally I’ll wait until the findings come out as there are far bigger problems that need seeing to and we don’t public confidence being knocked back any further.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that what I said?


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 11, 2021)

Ok guys
Let’s take a break


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Enormously hypocritical, however you try and extricate yourself.

You openly slag my friends off, some of whom have suggested they may not adhere to future lockdowns for a variety iof reasons, and now you yourself acknowledge that you don’t know you will feel about things in the future? In the same post you say you won’t defy future lockdowns, and then go on to say you don’t know how you’ll act. Which is it, man?

I’m staggered that you can be so patronising and condescending of people you don’t even know, when you are absolutely no different from any of them.

Priceless.
		
Click to expand...

I know that the virus doesn’t care how I or any of your friends _feel_.  I suspect I _feel_ as peed off as any of them...as ALL of us are - but I am going to choose to respect the virus and the risk that if I pick it up I can transmit it to others even if I don’t get I’ll.

And for as long as the experts are telling me what we are currently being told in respect of the risk associated with the omicron variant then I will comply.  If the scientists lose me, though I don’t think they will, then I may change my mind.  If others choose not believe the scientists at the moment in respect of the omicron risk then so be it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 11, 2021)

Thread closed for a bit
Will reopen at some point


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## pauljames87 (Dec 12, 2021)

went out for lunch yesterday with the wife and our friends who live in chelmsford. We were pleasently surprised with the amount of people in masks. even in the restaurant (where its not law yet) before the meal waiting to be seated everyone had one.


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## Billysboots (Dec 12, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know that the virus doesn’t care how I or any of your friends _feel_.  I suspect I _feel_ as peed off as any of them...as ALL of us are - but I am going to choose to respect the virus and the risk that if I pick it up I can transmit it to others even if I don’t get I’ll.

And for as long as the experts are telling me what we are currently being told in respect of the risk associated with the omicron variant then I will comply.  If the scientists lose me, though I don’t think they will, then I may change my mind.  If others choose not believe the scientists at the moment in respect of the omicron risk then so be it.
		
Click to expand...

My final contribution to this exchange is to just seek some clarification.

So what you are actually saying then is that, whilst it’s okay for you to change your mind about observing future lockdowns, nobody else can?

I’m glad we cleared that one up.

🙄


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## bobmac (Dec 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My final contribution to this exchange is to just seek some clarification.
		
Click to expand...

I hope you don't think you'll get the last word


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## Ethan (Dec 12, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			went out for lunch yesterday with the wife and our friends who live in chelmsford. We were pleasently surprised with the amount of people in masks. even in the restaurant (where its not law yet) before the meal waiting to be seated everyone had one.
		
Click to expand...

In Chelmsford. Good grief, maybe there is hope for the country after all. Must have been somewhere upmarket, though .....


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## pauljames87 (Dec 12, 2021)

Couple postive tests at work and they all went out Thursday for a drink so the boss has asked for masks back when we not at our desks and LFT every few days to protect the room.

Happy to comply


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## spongebob59 (Dec 12, 2021)

Interesting clip from the spectator :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469656615032918017


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 12, 2021)

Level 4 is imminent. Boris to speak tonight @ 8p.m.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 12, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Level 4 is imminent. Boris to speak tonight @ 8p.m.
		
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Must be some more leaked footage coming out 🤣


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## theoneandonly (Dec 12, 2021)

A colleague and good friend decided he didn't need the vaccine despite us trying to persuade him otherwise. He caught covid and sadly died after 4 weeks. Don't make the same mistake.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My final contribution to this exchange is to just seek some clarification.

So what you are actually saying then is that, whilst it’s okay for you to change your mind about observing future lockdowns, nobody else can?

I’m glad we cleared that one up.

🙄
		
Click to expand...

No…I am saying that I cannot say NEVER…just as though I can say today that i will not be a scratch h/cap in the  next few months, I cannot say that I will NEVER be a scratch golfer.

And so given the *current* circumstances and *current* threat and risk posed by the omicron virus, I can say with a *certainty* that I will adhere to what I am required to do, but clearly I cannot say that I will NEVER in the future flaunt the rules or ignore guidance.  That is all.  I am currently of the view that the risk and uncertainty associated with the omicron variant is such that this is not the time to be ignoring the guidance and rules.

There is nothing wrong with changing your mind if the evidence and circumstances change.  I am glad that I have been able to clear that up.


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## GB72 (Dec 12, 2021)

Back from Brighton. Felt ok most of the time. Only my personal observation but, especially on the trains, it was the 20-30 age group who were either ignoring mask rules or sat with a packet of crisps in front of them so as they could claim to be eating if questioned


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I hope you don't think you'll get the last word 

Click to expand...


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2021)

This made me smile.   

I wonder what reasonable grounds for a lay person ceasing to believe "the scientists" looks like?

30 years of study and the award of a Nobel Prize?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 12, 2021)

IanM said:



			This made me smile.  

I wonder what reasonable grounds for a lay person ceasing to believe "the scientists" looks like?

30 years of study and the award of a Nobel Prize? 

Click to expand...

What grounds indeed…🤔🙄


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## Hobbit (Dec 12, 2021)

IanM said:



			This made me smile.  

I wonder what reasonable grounds for a lay person ceasing to believe "the scientists" looks like?

30 years of study and the award of a Nobel Prize? 

Click to expand...

I did wonder… “ah yes, Íve listened to my French barber, rather than a panel of experts, and decided I wońt follow the guidance.”


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

IanM said:



			This made me smile.  

I wonder what reasonable grounds for a lay person ceasing to believe "the scientists" looks like?

30 years of study and the award of a Nobel Prize? 

Click to expand...

Just remember that there's a 'political translation' layer on top!
It's not 'the scientists' making the announcements anymore!


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## IanM (Dec 12, 2021)

Don't confuse announcements with decisions/guidance


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## 4LEX (Dec 12, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59602984

You love to see it. Hopefully they chase her and get her Covid grants back.


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## larmen (Dec 12, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Just remember that there's a 'political translation' layer on top!
It's not 'the scientists' making the announcements anymore!
		
Click to expand...

But you have Whitty, Fauci, Drosten, … all advising different people with the same or very similar advise coming out of their countries leadership. It’s only really Sweden that does (did?) differently.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			But you have Whitty, Fauci, Drosten, … all advising different people with the same or very similar advise coming out of their countries leadership. *It’s only really Sweden that does (did?) differently.*

Click to expand...

And that didn't really work out too well for them when you compare them to the other Nordic countries.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1113834/cumulative-coronavirus-deaths-in-the-nordics/


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 12, 2021)

4LEX said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59602984

You love to see it. Hopefully they chase her and get her Covid grants back.
		
Click to expand...


What the BBC fails to mention every time is that her fight was crowdfunded. I personally donated to it. Made 40k in 24 hours. 68k total after the cinema being closed the first time round.


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

4LEX said:



			...
I'm not going to add to this thread further as everyone knows the score by now....
		
Click to expand...

And yet you did - considerably!


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## Foxholer (Dec 12, 2021)

larmen said:



			But you have Whitty, Fauci, Drosten, … all advising different people with the same or very similar advise coming out of their countries leadership. It’s only really Sweden that does (did?) differently.
		
Click to expand...

In spite of the fact that these are the folk that are best placed to define/explain the strategy (to both government and populace), it still comes down to politicians to make the decrees etc.


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## ExRabbit (Dec 13, 2021)

Having been to a 50th Birthday party tonight and not being sure if I want to be clear in a few days time or to be positive and get it over with.

61, booster a few weeks ago.


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## 4LEX (Dec 13, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			What the BBC fails to mention every time is that her fight was crowdfunded. I personally donated to it. Made 40k in 24 hours. 68k total after the cinema being closed the first time round.
		
Click to expand...

Money down the drain, literally. Funding someone who is breaking rules that the majority of businesses are following. You should be ashamed of yourself.

A fool and his money are easily parted


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## Ethan (Dec 13, 2021)

There are examples where the rules are harsh and arguably get in the way of the greater good. Going to the cinema is not one of them, though. I support the Council.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 13, 2021)

😳 the Cinema has had £52k in grants during COVID and still breaks the law, not once but 3 times.


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## road2ruin (Dec 13, 2021)

I probably missed this as I thought you could take daily tests but it appears the isolating advice has just been updated....

_New rules on self-isolation, this guidance applies to ENGLAND
If you’re a contact of someone who may have been infected with the Omicron variant, you must self-isolate for 10 days, regardless of your age, vaccination status or any negative test results._

How do you know if someone was infected by Omicron, do they get told whether it's that or Delta etc? Going to be an awful lot of tricky decisions to be made in the coming weeks with Christmas within that 10 day period come Wednesday.


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## road2ruin (Dec 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I probably missed this as I thought you could take daily tests but it appears the isolating advice has just been updated....

_New rules on self-isolation, this guidance applies to ENGLAND
If you’re a contact of someone who may have been infected with the Omicron variant, you must self-isolate for 10 days, regardless of your age, vaccination status or any negative test results._

How do you know if someone was infected by Omicron, do they get told whether it's that or Delta etc? Going to be an awful lot of tricky decisions to be made in the coming weeks with Christmas within that 10 day period come Wednesday.
		
Click to expand...

Ignore this!! The above advice is up until tomorrow, after tomorrow if you are vaccinated you can take a daily lateral flow.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Ignore this!! The above advice is up until tomorrow, after tomorrow if you are vaccinated you can take a daily lateral flow.
		
Click to expand...

Which is prob why their is a massive shortage


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## road2ruin (Dec 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Which is prob why their is a massive shortage
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, I just logged in as we're now out of them and no joy.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Yeah, I just logged in as we're now out of them and no joy.
		
Click to expand...

Glad work gave us all on shift a box yest. They made us all test there and then as someone had been postive who went out for drinks with a group of them

Protecting the room as much as possible


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 13, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Yeah, I just logged in as we're now out of them and no joy.
		
Click to expand...

Try your local pharmacy. Lots are out there apparently, just not all available to post out.


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## road2ruin (Dec 13, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Try your local pharmacy. Lots are out there apparently, just not all available to post out.
		
Click to expand...

Too late, roving groups of parents have already hoovered them up, it's already threatening to be the new petrol crisis!!


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 13, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Glad work gave us all on shift a box yest. They made us all test there and then as someone had been postive who went out for drinks with a group of them

Protecting the room as much as possible
		
Click to expand...

My shift colleagues are out on the pish on Thursday.

I'm avoiding that and socially distancing at Silloth on Solway GC.

Who knows whats going to happen when we are back in on Saturday, not looking forward to it at all. If plant is shutdown as we are now then I have a chance to keep out of the way, if its running I'm screwed....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 13, 2021)

Went to pharmacy earlier for a pack of LFTs but it would not provide them to us until I had a request code generated through the app / website.  That was easily done.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 13, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Went to pharmacy earlier for a pack of LFTs but it would not provide them to us until I had a request code generated through the app / website.  That was easily done.
		
Click to expand...

Mrs said the pharmacy (the one we think are awful) were so rude to some 80 year old man 

He asked for LFT tests.. was told need a code .. where is your code . He said I was told to come didn't get a code 

Lady behind him scanned the code for him

Person at till "see it wasn't that hard"

When I went 2 hours later to pick up antibiotics (which after 30 mins they said oh we don't have) they were handing the LFT out to anyone who asked no code 

Couldn't make it up


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## Billysboots (Dec 13, 2021)

Just watching the news, and items showing huge queues at walk-in vaccination centres. What has really surprised me is the sheer number of people in the queues, including people interviewed who claim to be clinically vulnerable, who should have had boosters some time ago.

Why has it taken news of Omicron to get so many senior citizens to get their jabs?


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 13, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Just watching the news, and items showing huge queues at walk-in vaccination centres. What has really surprised me is the sheer number of people in the queues, including people interviewed who claim to be clinically vulnerable, who should have had boosters some time ago.

Why has it taken news of Omicron to get so many senior citizens to get their jabs?
		
Click to expand...


Why indeed? If everyone who has been offered vaccinations had taken them when they were offered, we would not be in this situation, this race against time.
Sometimes, people act so daft that I find myself questioning universal suffrage.


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## Billysboots (Dec 13, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why indeed? If everyone who has been offered vaccinations had taken them when they were offered, we would not be in this situation, this race against time.
Sometimes, people act so daft that I find myself questioning universal suffrage.
		
Click to expand...

And I have to say it angers me that others, who are now legitimately able to get their boosters, are being shunted down the queue locally, having to defer to those who should have been long since.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 13, 2021)

More covid deaths and a raft of staff off with covid or isolating waiting on a negative PCR. No-one is in a festive mood, many are working on empty and fears of a massive spike of new cases in January. Little festive cheer on the horizon


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## spongebob59 (Dec 13, 2021)

Posted by Tory MP Steve Baker on twitter, the real NHS crisis.


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## Ethan (Dec 13, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Posted by Tory MP Steve Baker on twitter, the real NHS crisis.
View attachment 39940

Click to expand...

The vast majority of those staff will take a vaccination, especially if there are other societal pressures to do so. If they don't, assuming they don't have a valid proper exemption (very few good reasons), they should leave.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 13, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The vast majority of those staff will take a vaccination, especially if there are other societal pressures to do so. If they don't, assuming they don't have a valid proper exemption (very few good reasons), they should leave.
		
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I’ll be interested in where all those people will find alternative employment 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## williamalex1 (Dec 13, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			I’ll be interested in where all those people will find alternative employment 🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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2 of my family work in a private care home , they MUST be triple vaccinated, tested twice a week and temperature taken on entry to the building. 
If their temperature is too high they're sent home, without pay .


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			More covid deaths and a raft of staff off with covid or isolating waiting on a negative PCR. No-one is in a festive mood, many are working on empty and fears of a massive spike of new cases in January. Little festive cheer on the horizon
		
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Surely at this time it's nothing like a year ago in Hospitals.  Things may well get worse but at this time I just can't understand why your hospital is any worse than it's been for some time.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely at this time it's nothing like a year ago in Hospitals.  Things may well get worse but at this time I just can't understand why your hospital is any worse than it's been for some time.
		
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Maybe something like the NHS staff have been working like dogs the past 19 months and are at breaking point. 

Just sayin


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## chrisd (Dec 13, 2021)

Someone I know has recently had a stroke, he wont get vaccinated at all, has stopped taking some of the medications that the hospital gave him for the stroke and has told the hospital that if they cant see him in person not to bother phoning him to check on his well being. None of his immediate family have been jabbed either.

Words fail me!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 13, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Maybe something like the NHS staff have been working like dogs the past 19 months and are at breaking point.

Just sayin
		
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Yes, they always work hard, are you suggesting anyone is denying that.

My point to Homer was that although it's difficult it has been much worse than it is right now, while acknowledging it's probably going to get tougher.


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## Hobbit (Dec 13, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely at this time it's nothing like a year ago in Hospitals.  Things may well get worse but at this time I just can't understand why your hospital is any worse than it's been for some time.
		
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Quite simply, they’re already worn out. I’ve spoken to any number of ex-colleagues and friends, and the central theme from virtually every single one of them is they can’t face another period like March to June last year. 4x 12 hour shifts fully gowned and masked, with a mortality rate unheard of in modern times. And to hear and watch a 35 year veteran, ICU Sister, in tears as she spoke of the daily torment was heart wrenching. She put her papers in 3 weeks ago and leaves in January. Some of her colleagues have already gone. Some have refused to work in ICU, and the union is involved.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, they always work hard, are you suggesting anyone is denying that.

My point to Homer was that although it's difficult it has been much worse than it is right now, while acknowledging it's probably going to get tougher.
		
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As Frag said, most haven't had any sort of sufficient break and most of those from overseas haven't seen their families for over two years with the visiting restrictions (and additional quarantine requirements at certain times and the high level of infections in some parts of the world) and so that is having a huge impact as we roll towards the festive period, traditionally a time to be together. We are seeing a spike in infected nurses isolating and others waiting on PCR test results. We are seeing more cases come in, primarily as our respiratory ward is now full. Numbers may not be the same as last year but the pressures are as bad


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

There has been a nasty and insidious strategy, happily supported by certain sections of the media, to blame many of the failings of planning and investment in the NHS on front-line staff. I know people who have been placed in impossible situations with a load of demands that could never all be satisfied, and then blamed even when fewer problems arose than might reasonably be expected. Add to that the clapping and 'George Medal' but no tangible form of appreciation, and it is no wonder the staff are exhausted, pissed off and all out of goodwill.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2021)

Out of interest, I wonder what the true figure is of “ nurse shortage” in the NHS. I remember seeing a figure a few weeks back showing it was over 100,000. I thought straight away surely that’s not right.

Thats said I thought this was a good read re the reasons behind having a booster.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59639973


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 14, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Quite simply, they’re already worn out. I’ve spoken to any number of ex-colleagues and friends, and the central theme from virtually every single one of them is they can’t face another period like March to June last year. 4x 12 hour shifts fully gowned and masked, with a mortality rate unheard of in modern times. And to hear and watch a 35 year veteran, ICU Sister, in tears as she spoke of the daily torment was heart wrenching. She put her papers in 3 weeks ago and leaves in January. Some of her colleagues have already gone. Some have refused to work in ICU, and the union is involved.
		
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That is an awful state of affairs. That dedicated people are pushed to those limits.
It's about time we really took off the kid gloves . People like you have described are being sacrificed because of all this human rights crap being afforded the non vaxxers. It's their "right"  etc etc. A "right" that's causing misery .
Well, I'm for putting the rights and wellbeing of the hospital staff , ambulance crews, and all involved in trying to beat this thing, before those of idiots like Chrisd described.

I'm all for making them second class citizens until they think more of their social duty and less of their right .


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That is an awful state of affairs. That dedicated people are pushed to those limits.
It's about time we really took off the kid gloves . People like you have described are being sacrificed because of all this human rights crap being afforded the non vaxxers. It's their "right"  etc etc. A "right" that's causing misery .
Well, I'm for putting the rights and wellbeing of the hospital staff , ambulance crews, and all involved in trying to beat this thing, before those of idiots like Chrisd described.

I'm all for making them second class citizens until they think more of their social duty and less of their right .
		
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Wow! Just Wow! The state of the NHS,the shortage of staff and every other problem is not solely down to non vaxxers!

Talk about burying your head in the sand and deflecting.


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## Robster59 (Dec 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Wow! Just Wow! The state of the NHS,the shortage of staff and every other problem is not solely down to non vaxxers!

Talk about burying your head in the sand and deflecting.

Click to expand...

Additional strain is being put on the NHS by people who are not getting vaccinated and then finishing up in hospital.  As has been reported earlier in this thread, hospital staff are getting increasingly angry at these people.  Nobody is saying that the NHS is perfect, but why put extra unnecessary strain on the system because you prefer to believe what some unknown idea is posting on social media, and prefer to follow the conspiracy theorists, rather than the medical and technical experts.


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## Robster59 (Dec 14, 2021)

We were due to take part in an exhibition in Liverpool the first week of January.  That was cancelled yesterday due to the latest outbreak.  Quite rightly of course, it would have been crazy to continue.  Especially as it is an exhibition involving health professionals.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2021)

Robster59 said:



			Additional strain is being put on the NHS by people who are not getting vaccinated and then finishing up in hospital.  As has been reported earlier in this thread, hospital staff are getting increasingly angry at these people.  Nobody is saying that the NHS is perfect, but why put extra unnecessary strain on the system because you prefer to believe what some unknown idea is posting on social media, and prefer to follow the conspiracy theorists, rather than the medical and technical experts.
		
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Probably why I said the problem is not solely down to non vaxxers which is what I responded to, obviously they hold some responsibility and personally I’d like to see them forced in to getting the jabs or their civil liberties removed.

But the point stands, the NHS and the Staff have suffered years and years of being taken for granted and not being looked after.

Covid is purely the straw that will break the camel’s back.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2021)

The positive news right now appears to be that whilst the new strain seems to be more infectious it isn’t as “deadly” as previous strains through a combination of the vaccine and the virus itself not being as potent *according to scientist this morning. 

Is it starting to become the new winter flu - or will this be the last big surge of it


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Probably why I said the problem is not solely down to non vaxxers which is what I responded to, obviously they hold some responsibility and personally I’d like to see them forced in to getting the jabs or their civil liberties removed.

But the point stands, the NHS and the Staff have suffered years and years of being taken for granted and not being looked after.

Covid is purely the straw that will break the camel’s back.
		
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And I'm afraid it has to be recognised that there is a level of arrogance in many medics that resist process change. The amount of time and money wasted by a refusal to adapt is staggering. (IMO. From professional experience. )


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			And I'm afraid it has to be recognised that there is a level of arrogance in many medics that resist process change. The amount of time and money wasted by a refusal to adapt is staggering. (IMO. From professional experience. )
		
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Good to know they’ve brought it on themselves.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As Frag said, most haven't had any sort of sufficient break and most of those from overseas haven't seen their families for over two years with the visiting restrictions (and additional quarantine requirements at certain times and the high level of infections in some parts of the world) and so that is having a huge impact as we roll towards the festive period, traditionally a time to be together. We are seeing a spike in infected nurses isolating and others waiting on PCR test results. We are seeing more cases come in, primarily as our respiratory ward is now full. Numbers may not be the same as last year but the pressures are as bad
		
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There is no arguement about front line staff and their work ethic/commitment, I certainly haven't questioned that. My question is regarding your comments on the increase of deaths and infections on your wards.  The numbers presented to us are not showing any great increases, we are being warned that there may be a tidal wave of infections ahead of us but we are yet to see it.  Maybe you could explain why your hospital is experiencing these increases.


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## Billysboots (Dec 14, 2021)

Some positive news from South Africa this morning on Omicron. The last three paragraphs hopefully throw in a dollop of common sense.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

This is what is really confusing me at the moment. The African nations and the WHO appear to be totally dismissive about Omicron as any form of threat whereas the rest of the world have hit the panic button. Really not sure how a lay person is meant to digest this and form an opinion as there are 2 totally contradictory stances coming from medical authorities.


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## Billysboots (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This is what is really confusing me at the moment. The African nations and the WHO appear to be totally dismissive about Omicron as any form of threat whereas the rest of the world have hit the panic button. Really not sure how a lay person is meant to digest this and form an opinion as there are 2 totally contradictory stances coming from medical authorities.
		
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I suppose we’re a week or two behind and want to make decisions based on our own data.

It’s the last two paragraphs I find most encouraging. If experience in South Africa is a guide, maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Imurg (Dec 14, 2021)

If Omicron really takes off and everyone infected has to isolate for 10 days....within a couple of months we could see a million people a month having to isolate.
Thats a large chunk of the workforce over and above normal who aren't there..
Shops, businesses will close for a while and parts of the NHS could find themselves without enough staff to keep basic wards going.
That, to me, is the biggest issue.
If you have a heart attack of youre in a crash or whatever and you need to go to hospital - there might not be enough people there to help you.
A bit of a domesday scenario but if Omicron gets it's act together and we don't do our bit to try and slow it then good luck to anyone in need of medical attention


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2021)

Your Plan B? Staring at the calendar this morning and I realised that tomorrow is effectively D-Day when it comes to being told to isolate, from then your Christmas may be ruined if you are told to self isolate or you test positive etc. I was just wondering how many have a Plan B in place? For us we are having Christmas with my folks and other family so at present we're using up food in the fridge/freezer as we'll be away for a week or so. However, should the worst happen we're probably going to need an emergency Christmas dinner! At present we're just hoping for the best and, if we are unlucky enough in being told to isolate, that it won't be on Christmas Eve when it's too late to do anything about it!!


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## Imurg (Dec 14, 2021)

We have a plan B.
Supposed to be going to the in-laws on the Wirral.
Mrs isn't well and might not be able,e to travel, plenty of time for any of us to catch IT so I've got the makings of Xmas Dinner in the freezer  should circumstances conspire against us.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			There is no arguement about front line staff and their work ethic/commitment, I certainly haven't questioned that. My question is regarding your comments on the increase of deaths and infections on your wards.  The numbers presented to us are not showing any great increases, *we are being warned that there may be a tidal wave of infections ahead of us but we are yet to see it.  Maybe you could explain why your hospital is experiencing these increases.*

Click to expand...

Try actually checking the actual figures. Daily numbers have increased from 3k-ish in June to around 50k in late November. The 'tidal wave' IS here!


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## Leftitshort (Dec 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



View attachment 39941

Some positive news from South Africa this morning on Omicron. The last three paragraphs hopefully throw in a dollop of common sense.
		
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We don’t do positive on here. Only doom & gloom!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



View attachment 39941

Some positive news from South Africa this morning on Omicron. The last three paragraphs hopefully throw in a dollop of common sense.
		
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Positive news - watch out you can’t do that


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Good to know they’ve brought it on themselves.

Click to expand...

Not what I said. I gave an opinion based on real world examples and what i have observed. There is a lot of waste which causes the guys at the front line more work/duplication than necessary with non-core stuff.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 14, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			2 of my family work in a private care home , they MUST be triple vaccinated, tested twice a week and temperature taken on entry to the building.
If their temperature is too high they're sent home, without pay .
		
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Surely they can challenge being physically sent home without pay without proof of sickness. That’s unlawful deduction of wages. I’m no HR expert but if I was turn up to work and told to go home I’d be paid. Everywhere I’ve worked and I’ve done it myself is come to work in a crap state and hope someone takes pity and sends me home. (Not now I get full sick pay mind)


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



View attachment 39941

Some positive news from South Africa this morning on Omicron. The last three paragraphs hopefully throw in a dollop of common sense.
		
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SA is different. Apart from seasonality is UK avergae age, population density, commuting, international travel hub etc. etc. Surely it is prudent to try and qwell the rate of infection to buy time for vaccinaton/immunisation, medication development, NHS capacity.  You only get one bite at these decisions: better to be chastised for over reacting that see more deaths due to NHS being over-burdened in all areas


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			...
Some positive news from South Africa this morning on Omicron. The last three paragraphs hopefully throw in a dollop of common sense.
		
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Isn't that 'old news' though.
From memory, Omicron was _always_ described as being less virulent than previous strains. Though (on the negative side) it also seems to spread faster than other strains - thus the call for booster that give significant protection. 
The strategy seems to have changed somewhat from general protection to protecting those in most danger of serious issues - those in care homes etc (who, imo, were treated very badly in earlier phases of the pandemic), who would also increase the strain on the NHS.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Try actually checking the actual figures. Daily numbers have increased from 3k-ish in June to around 50k in late November. The 'tidal wave' IS here!
		
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June!  We have to accept there's going to be a difference in mid winter.  I'm talking about the numbers over the last three months..


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			June!  We have to accept there's going to be a difference in mid winter.  I'm talking about the numbers over the last three months..
		
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Check the graphs - for whatever period you wish!
The reason I mentioned June number was to demonstrate the massive increase - from, I agree, a 'to be expected, point' period.

And to spoon feed you, just click this link! https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/#graph-cases-daily


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## D-S (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Try actually checking the actual figures. Daily numbers have increased from 3k-ish in June to around 50k in late November. The 'tidal wave' IS here!
		
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Case numbers are not the metric that is important in this particular discussion, a better one would be patients admitted to hospital - and as per the latest dashboard the Tsunami is not here yet.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nation&areaName=England
However an interesting metric is the ratio of hospital admissions to case numbers and this, due to vaccinations and prior infections, is at an all time low.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

This is another point that confuses me. The rhetoric at the time of the start of vaccinations was to break the link between case numbers and hospitalisations and yet the media focus remains strongly on case numbers. Appreciate the need to try and keep case numbers under control but is there not a need for a more detailed yardstick for where we stand as opposed to just picking the most frightenting sounding number. With vaccination in play, surely it is all a bit more nuanced now. 

Still, if bug numbers get people queuing for booster jabs, keep them coming.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2021)

Yesterday it was issues with LFT availability; today it’s PCR test appointments.  Hoping these are only initial and very immediate term blimps and not more systematic supply and capacity issues.  But given the ‘emergency’ nature of the PMs announcement last Thursday I guess immediate shortages could be expected.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yesterday it was issues with LFT availability; today it’s PCR test appointments.  Hoping these are only initial and very immediate term blimps and not more systematic supply issues.  But given the ‘emergency’ nature of the PMs announcement last Thursday I guess it’s possible that there might be short term rather than just immediate issues.  Hope not.
		
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They have become the new toilet roll, simple as that. Especially with the LFT, people are stockpiling the things. Should be as previously, 7 are dispatched on request and add that you cannot have any more until those 7 are used and registered against you NHS app.


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			And I'm afraid it has to be recognised that there is a level of arrogance in many medics that resist process change. The amount of time and money wasted by a refusal to adapt is staggering. (IMO. From professional experience. )
		
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Can you explain what you mean exactly? Medics have adapted massively, and without their often unpaid and invariably unappreciated adaptation, the NHS would have gone tits up long ago. 

Consider also the possibility that some of the proposed change was serving a purpose which was not that which it appeared to be. 

The amount of time and money wasted by changes in the NHS over the past 20-odd years massively outweighs any wastage from any or all professional groups.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Wow! Just Wow! The state of the NHS,the shortage of staff and every other problem is not solely down to non vaxxers!

Talk about burying your head in the sand and deflecting.

Click to expand...

Burying my head nothing!  The unprecedented pressures on the hospitals at the moment is down to one thing- the battle against Covid. 
Beds taken up by Covid patients mean no ICU beds for other cases ( see Ethan's post a while back)
The work involved in treating Covid patients is more arduous than normal because of PPE requirements etc - we've all seen the pictures of staff working in Covid wards.
All those things, and the losses, must be, and are ,taking a toll above and beyond normal nursing experiences.
And all this pressure is why the Government, and Opposition, are pushing so hard for vaccinations. Those refusing to have them are exacerbating the situation, obviously agreed by scientists and those in the know ( or why else the massive drive to get people vaxxed), so I'm afraid your "straw" is more like a bale.
If you want to come up with some sort of defence for these anti vaxxers, then why don't you spell out what it is. ?
And while you're at it, what's with the deflecting accusation?


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yesterday it was issues with LFT availability; today it’s PCR test appointments.  Hoping these are only initial and very immediate term blimps and not more systematic supply and capacity issues.  But given the ‘emergency’ nature of the PMs announcement last Thursday I guess immediate shortages could be expected, but it’s possible that there might be short term rather than just immediate issues.  Hope not.
		
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Also not sure where they got that screen grab from (BBC) as just been on the PCR website and they seem to be readily available in about 90% of regions.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This is another point that confuses me. The rhetoric at the time of the start of vaccinations was to break the link between case numbers and hospitalisations and yet the media focus remains strongly on case numbers. Appreciate the need to try and keep case numbers under control but is there not a need for a more detailed yardstick for where we stand as opposed to just picking the most frightenting sounding number. With vaccination in play, surely it is all a bit more nuanced now.

Still, if bug numbers get people queuing for booster jabs, keep them coming.
		
Click to expand...

I think it is Singapore that have stopped releasing infection figures for this very reason. I may have misread that but I think it is the case.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Check the graphs - for whatever period you wish!
The reason I mentioned June number was to demonstrate the massive increase - from, I agree, a 'to be expected, point' period.

And to spoon feed you, just click this link! https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/#graph-cases-daily

Click to expand...

Attempting to support your exaggerated comment is not spoonfeeding.  You are well known for suggesting statistics can be a distortion of the truth (lies, damn lies and statistics).   Here's a graph from the .gov website showing infection rates.  I'm struggling to see a tsunami at this time.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			SA is different. Apart from seasonality is UK avergae age, population density, commuting, international travel hub etc. etc. Surely it is prudent to try and qwell the rate of infection to buy time for vaccinaton/immunisation, medication development, NHS capacity.  You only get one bite at these decisions: better to be chastised for over reacting that see more deaths due to NHS being over-burdened in all areas
		
Click to expand...

Surely their demographics remain the same so if they are reporting  a stable infection rate then the new strain isn't any worse.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Burying my head nothing!  The unprecedented pressures on the hospitals at the moment is down to one thing- the battle against Covid.
Beds taken up by Covid patients mean no ICU beds for other cases ( see Ethan's post a while back)
The work involved in treating Covid patients is more arduous than normal because of PPE requirements etc - we've all seen the pictures of staff working in Covid wards.
All those things, and the losses, must be, and are ,taking a toll above and beyond normal nursing experiences.
And all this pressure is why the Government, and Opposition, are pushing so hard for vaccinations. Those refusing to have them are exacerbating the situation, obviously agreed by scientists and those in the know ( or why else the massive drive to get people vaxxed), so I'm afraid your "straw" is more like a bale.
If you want to come up with some sort of defence for these anti vaxxers, then why don't you spell out what it is. ?
And while you're at it, what's with the deflecting accusation?
		
Click to expand...

Your whole post was blaming the anti vaxxers, they are not alone in putting pressure on the NHS, the current problems run far deeper than just the anti vaxxers, who I have clearly stated should be forced into having vaccines and treated as 2nd class citizens until they are vaxxed.

I am in no way defending them, just like there is no way you should be blaming them for the situation Hobbit described and you replied to.

The ICU Nurse has not resigned purely in reaction to anti vaxxers.


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## IainP (Dec 14, 2021)

I think there will be local variations 
If this works

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1470348278382403584
Originally read it on bbc main site but couldn't find it - it has been merged into this, towards the end
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales...EDC252D&at_custom1=[post+type]&at_campaign=64


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## williamalex1 (Dec 14, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Surely they can challenge being physically sent home without pay without proof of sickness. That’s unlawful deduction of wages. I’m no HR expert but if I was turn up to work and told to go home I’d be paid. Everywhere I’ve worked and I’ve done it myself is come to work in a crap state and hope someone takes pity and sends me home. (Not now I get full sick pay mind)
		
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Both are on temp zero hours contracts, they aren't allowed past the entrance foyer if their temperature is too high. It's up to them as  individuals to get and show a negative PCR test result. before being allowed back to work .
If the PCR is positive they must isolate, only then can they claim SSP.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

D-S said:



			Case numbers are not the metric that is important in this particular discussion, a better one would be patients admitted to hospital - and as per the latest dashboard the Tsunami is not here yet.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nation&areaName=England
However an interesting metric is the ratio of hospital admissions to case numbers and this, due to vaccinations and prior infections, is at an all time low.
		
Click to expand...

I agree. This seems to verify the fairly long held assertion that current variant (Omicron), while apparently 'faster spreading' is 'less dangerous' to the general population than previous ones.
So there's still the question mark about Homer's 'panic' - or are hospitals 'merely full up and working at >100% capacity'.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2021)

Mate just sent me this picture from the Nightingale Hosp in Sunderland where he went for his booster by appt:




Only 4 others there, Staff stood around, told him it’s been like this all day.
Really doesn’t fit with the pictures the media are showing from other parts of the Country.

Not really sure what this says if I’m honest.

Is it the people are ahead of the curve, don’t care or a fault of the booking system, 1 member of staff did say to him that some people had gone to a walk in centre and not bothered to cancel their appointment.


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



*They have become the new toilet roll*, simple as that. Especially with the LFT, people are stockpiling the things. Should be as previously, 7 are dispatched on request and add that you cannot have any more until those 7 are used and registered against you NHS app.
		
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I disagree with this part. It was suddenly announced that you could avoid isolation as long as you were double jabbed and tested daily so what on earth did they expect? If you have a household with 3-4 people that's 21-28 tests that they're trying to order. I have been trying to get LFT tests and, at the moment, cannot order online and none of our local pharmacy's etc have them and don't know when they'll get them. Apparently there are no issues with supply however I would disagree, on a local level (in our area) there is no supply. All this will be mean is that people will ignore the daily testing and just carry on as normal as they cannot do the required testing.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I disagree with this part. It was suddenly announced that you could avoid isolation as long as you were double jabbed and tested daily so what on earth did they expect? If you have a household with 3-4 people that's 21-28 tests that they're trying to order. I have been trying to get LFT tests and, at the moment, cannot order online and none of our local pharmacy's etc have them and don't know when they'll get them. Apparently there are no issues with supply however I would disagree, on a local level (in our area) there is no supply. All this will be mean is that people will ignore the daily testing and just carry on as normal as they cannot do the required testing.
		
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But how many of those people actually need those tests and how many have decided to order a bulk amount just in case.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			...I'm struggling to see a tsunami at this time.
		
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Perhaps 'Tsunami' is not the right description - I merely repeated an earlier use.
'High tide on an already flooded landscape' might be a better one.

It's quite likely that the effect elsewhere (particularly working environments/capabalities) is more significant than on hospitals (which was were the 'reporting' focus with previous strains).

Btw. The 'Daily deaths' is probably a more relevant graph. Showing seasonal increase, but lower rate than last year. Still a horrible rate though!


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

Looks like we do not have a total monopoly on stupidity. Bloke in New Zealand got 10 covid jabs in a day. Was being paid by anti vaxxers to get the jabs in their names so as they could get covid passports.


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			But how many of those people actually need those tests and how many have decided to order a bulk amount just in case.
		
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But we’ve been told that it’s our duty to test regularly, that we should test before going out socially to protect people, to take daily tests if one of your household tests positively. All of this at the time of year when so many people are mixing so are likely to test a little more. Anecdotally I know numerous people who’ve not tested themselves once during this entire period who have now started as they are conscious of Christmas etc. It seems, to me, it was announced without any thought toward the practical implications.


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## D-S (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Looks like we do not have a total monopoly on stupidity. Bloke in New Zealand got 10 covid jabs in a day. Was being paid by anti vaxxers to get the jabs in their names so as they could get covid passports.
		
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I sincerely hope he had 10 times the sore are that I had and 10 the side effects that others had.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But we’ve been told that it’s our duty to test regularly, that we should test before going out socially to protect people, to take daily tests if one of your household tests positively. All of this at the time of year when so many people are mixing so are likely to test a little more. Anecdotally I know numerous people who’ve not tested themselves once during this entire period who have now started as they are conscious of Christmas etc. It seems, to me, it was announced without any thought toward the practical implications.
		
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Or maybe people are being selfish and just going around hoovering up as many tests as they can get thinking as long as they are OK and can enjoy themselves then sod everyone else. People are not suddenly showing a civic consience, people are selfishly doing what they can to ensure that they are fine over the Xmas period, same with toilet rolls, same with petrol. Seems that there was no problem until people were faced with restrictions on freedoms. As the petrol situation showed, you can have all the supply you need but it all goes wrong when people selfishly want to take as much as they can for themselves and all do it at once. Hard to prove either way and probably a mix of both.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Looks like we do not have a total monopoly on stupidity. Bloke in New Zealand got 10 covid jabs in a day. Was being paid by anti vaxxers to get the jabs in their names so as they could get covid passports.
		
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Entrepreneurial ingenuity is universal!
Not the smartest implementation of a quite reasonable policy (no vax evidence; no job!).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2021)

Sounds like PCR test capacity issues are local and temporary…as would be expected given the immediacy of the omicron virus risk.

LFT supply may be a ‘panic buy’ issue…we noted that pharmacy local to MiLs has notice on its door saying that they did not have any LFT kits.  Hopefully that you have to get a code through the app or website will mean that one individual can’t get many test kits at once or in a short period.  Don’t know if any such check is made when getting a code.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't that 'old news' though.
From memory, Omicron was _always_ described as being less virulent than previous strains. Though (on the negative side) it also seems to spread faster than other strains - thus the call for booster that give significant protection. 
The strategy seems to have changed somewhat from general protection to protecting those in most danger of serious issues - those in care homes etc (who, imo, were treated very badly in earlier phases of the pandemic), who would also increase the strain on the NHS.
		
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Yes you're right re old news. IIRC, this was earlier on the forum somewhere, this Dr was in fact castigating UK and others Euro counties for the red listing of S.A. These attributes  she made re this virus were part of it. 
Ethan gave a reply about it, and her part in the report. He said her observations were premature etc.
Ref your strategy comment? As I see it the main strategy is a drive for "booster for all over 18 by end of month?"
Haven't seen any emphasis on particular groups.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Entrepreneurial ingenuity is universal!
Not the smartest implementation of a quite reasonable policy (no vax evidence; no job!).
		
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Agree, but Blimey!  Sore arms (2) sore legs (2), sore head (1) sore,,,?
It's not going to avoid it, is it?
I hope he thinks it's worth it😂


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## Billysboots (Dec 14, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yes you're right re old news. IIRC, this was earlier on the forum somewhere, this Dr was in fact castigating UK and others Euro counties for the red listing of S.A. These lbs she made re this virus were part of it.
Ethan gave a reply about it, and her part in the report. He said her observations were premature etc.
Ref your strategy comment? As I see it the main strategy is a drive for "booster for all over 18 by end of month?"
Haven't seen any emphasis on particular groups.
		
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The same doctor has written an article for the Mail (yes, I know 🙄) today, and now she has seen how things have developed in South Africa she is even more scathing of Europe and, specifically, the U.K.

Interesting reading.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			The same doctor has written an article for the Mail (yes, I know 🙄) today, and now she has seen how things have developed in South Africa she is even more scathing of Europe and, specifically, the U.K.

Interesting reading.
		
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Not sure why we are so much on the receiving end of this as it appears pretty much global that there are restrictions on entry from SA and now restrictions on entries from other countries with Omicron, including the UK


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## drdel (Dec 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can you explain what you mean exactly? Medics have adapted massively, and without their often unpaid and invariably unappreciated adaptation, the NHS would have gone tits up long ago.

Consider also the possibility that some of the proposed change was serving a purpose which was not that which it appeared to be.

The amount of time and money wasted by changes in the NHS over the past 20-odd years massively outweighs any wastage from any or all professional groups.
		
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Explanations would require some specifics which you would then cite as not relevant because I cannot go into the context. 

Thus I don't propose to get into an argument to no purpose about the NHS 'business processes' and their implementation. I am not rubbishing staff who are working hard to stand still because of poor processes/controls.

I'm just saying the NHS issues/backlog are not just money unusual COVID demand


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2021)

Mrs SILH is thinking of pulling out of meeting up in London for dinner with four other couples, very bestest of friends of ours, this weekend.  With MiL and BiL both vulnerable she feels we can’t risk the train to Waterloo and underground or taxi to restaurant.  Then meeting up with our friends in a busy restaurant.  Yes of course if we went up we could do a LFT before going to MiLs next week and if we tested positive we wouldn’t go up for Christmas…but that would not be good given we didn’t go up to hers last Christmas and MiL and BiL are not coping with things that well at the moment.


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## Neilds (Dec 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs SILH is thinking of pulling out of meeting up with four other couples, very bestest of friends of ours, this weekend.  With MiL and BiL both vulnerable she feels we can’t risk the train to Waterloo and underground or taxi to restaurant.  Then meeting up with our friends in a busy restaurant.  Yes of course if we went up we could do a LFT before going to MiLs next week and if we tested positive we wouldn’t go up for Christmas…but that would not be good given we didn’t go up to hers last Christmas and MiL and BiL are not coping with things that well at the moment.
		
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Think that is a sensible course of action and if your wife doesn't feel comfortable then she should do what she thinks is right.  We are having a bit of a similar dilemma about how much we go out between now and Christmas when we want to go and see MiL who is on her own but could be classed as vulnerable.


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## D-S (Dec 14, 2021)

Good to see over 24 million booster jabs in arms as of today, 42% of the population over 12. Now going at a rate of 500,000 a day so in a few weeks, I think, we will be, as a nation, as freshly fully vacced as possible. 
If things don’t go better, i.e.less hospitalisations and NHS pressure, then I don’t know what more can be done to live with this thing, especially if it is basically just the vaccine hesitant which are causing any lingering problems.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mrs SILH is thinking of pulling out of meeting up in London for dinner with four other couples, very bestest of friends of ours, this weekend.  With MiL and BiL both vulnerable she feels we can’t risk the train to Waterloo and underground or taxi to restaurant.  Then meeting up with our friends in a busy restaurant.  Yes of course if we went up we could do a LFT before going to MiLs next week and if we tested positive we wouldn’t go up for Christmas…but that would not be good given we didn’t go up to hers last Christmas and MiL and BiL are not coping with things that well at the moment.
		
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I am pretty much going into social isolation from now on. Anything picked up from tomorrow onwards means Xmas day self isolating and I would rather avoid that if possible. Think that spending 10 days pretty much not going anywhere is worth it.


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## bobmac (Dec 14, 2021)

As Christmas is for many a non religious celebration/holiday, it could be celebrated at any time. Why cant people put it for a few months and have Christmas in say March instead when the picture will be more clear and the weather warmer.
I would prefer August myself. BBQ Turkey


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			Explanations would require some specifics which you would then cite as not relevant because I cannot go into the context.

Thus I don't propose to get into an argument to no purpose about the NHS 'business processes' and their implementation. I am not rubbishing staff who are working hard to stand still because of poor processes/controls.

I'm just saying the NHS issues/backlog are not just money unusual COVID demand
		
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Well, that is rather uninformative, then. I don't know the medics (a vague term, at best) with whom you allege difficulties. It is possible they have a different perspective on the matter.

But I do know that many doctors in the NHS and GP-land are totally pissed off working their arses off, invariably beyond their hours, getting no support from their employers who keep coming up with stupid initiatives designed to look good, but which waste valuable time and resources. In addition, the doctors' pensions are being sneakily limited. Pension is salary postponed, so added to the lack of any meaningful salary increase recently, they are getting shafted. And the employers ra happy to throw them under a bus at a moment's notice, and often do. 

I know a fair sample of doctors, mostly in mid-late career but spread across a range of specialties between hospital and GP and I don't think any of them would hesitate before dropping it tomorrow if a better alternative was available, including my OH. 

As an example how f-d up the system is, when I was a real doctor, if I was doing a clinic, say a diabetic clinic and a punter told me about a neurology symptom, if I thought it needed seen, I could literally walk the punter round to the neuro clinic round the corner of the OPD, or ask the desk to put them on tomorrows clinic list. Nowadays, if the same situation happens, the clinic doctor has to write to the GP, and ask the GP to write to the neurology clinic and get an appointment. That letter to the GP gets dictated, written by an overseas dictation service, emailed back, reviewed and corrected, the letter goes to the GP, is sorted by reception and put on the GPs large list of correspondence. When they get to it, they need to generate a new letter, possibly fill in a form which if not filled in 100% correctly and fully, will be rejected by an adminidroid and sent back, and then the successful letter is reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team who determine if it will be seen, and if so, when, then a letter is sent to the patient and GP. This means it could be months before the punter is seen and hours of time have been wasted processing the referral. The patient's issue is prolonged, possibly gets much worse and much time and money is wasted. 

My OH met a friend, a local GP recently, and the GP mentioned he was disappointed that she couldn't see a certain patient he referred to her. She said she didn't remember the case but would look into it. She discovered that a letter had been sent, addressed to her personally, but was processed by the team and rejected, without anyone telling her, a letter was sent out in her name rejecting it, with a scratchy signature that would be presumed to be hers. She blew a gasket and told her team that if anyone ever sent a letter out in her name again without her explicit agreement, she would report it to the police as fraud and pretending to be a registered medical practitioner. If that person had come to a sticky end and a coroner's case or criminal prosecution had followed, she would have been standing in court defending something she had not done but had no proof of and couldn't remember.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			As an example how f-d up the system is, when I was a real doctor, if I was doing a clinic, say a diabetic clinic and a punter told me about a neurology symptom, if I thought it needed seen, I could literally walk the punter round to the neuro clinic round the corner of the OPD, or ask the desk to put them on tomorrows clinic list. Nowadays, if the same situation happens, the clinic doctor has to write to the GP, and ask the GP to write to the neurology clinic and get an appointment. That letter to the GP gets dictated, written by an overseas dictation service, emailed back, reviewed and corrected, the letter goes to the GP, is sorted by reception and put on the GPs large list of correspondence. When they get to it, they need to generate a new letter, possibly fill in a form which if not filled in 100% correctly and fully, will be rejected by an adminidroid and sent back, and then the successful letter is reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team who determine if it will be seen, and if so, when, then a letter is sent to the patient and GP. This means it could be months before the punter is seen and hours of time have been wasted processing the referral. The patient's issue is prolonged, possibly gets much worse and much time and money is wasted.
		
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I think you have pretty much proved the point being suggested with this example, unless I lost the point in translation. This is an appalling waste of time and money, adding unnecessary delays and layers of beauracracy into the system. Why does this continue when it is so obviously flawed?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you have pretty much proved the point being suggested with this example. This is an appalling waste of time and money, adding unnecessary delays and layers of beauracracy into the system. Why does this continue when it is so obviously flawed?
		
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My guess would be these “efficiencies” are forced upon Doctors/Nurses etc in the name of saving money whilst failing to listen to or take their worries in to consideration.

It was well reported how low moral was in the NHS prior to the pandemic, god knows what it must be like now.


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you have pretty much proved the point being suggested with this example. This is an appalling waste of time and money, adding unnecessary delays and layers of beauracracy into the system. Why does this continue when it is so obviously flawed?
		
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Oh, that is only one tiny everyday example. There are loads more, and lots of unnecessary fragmentation and processes in place. Many of the processes seem to be there to gather activity data which is useful in pricing clinical activity. 

I preferred to the old top down command and control system in the NHS, now dismissed by many fans of the Austrian school of economics (Hayek, with a bit of Ayn Rand) as rather Soviet.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			My guess would be these “efficiencies” are forced upon Doctors/Nurses etc in the name of saving money whilst failing to listen to or take their worries in to consideration.
		
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I've no doubt. I'm quite sure it drives people nuts. Surely though, there has to be a way for staff to report back to management and for the system to be made better. It is what drives patients crackers when they go into wards. They see things like this and wonder how can it happen. It  is so obviously bad, wasteful and time delaying.


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			My guess would be these “efficiencies” are forced upon Doctors/Nurses etc in the name of saving money whilst failing to listen to or take their worries in to consideration.

It was well reported how low moral was in the NHS prior to the pandemic, god knows what it must be like now.
		
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Turns out that many efficiencies are rather inefficient.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've no doubt. I'm quite sure it drives people nuts. Surely though, there has to be a way for staff to report back to management and for the system to be made better. It is what drives patients crackers when they go into wards. They see things like this and wonder how can it happen. It  is so obviously bad, wasteful and time delaying.
		
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Hence my initial point this morning about the NHS being severely under pressure for many a year.
The Staff at all levels have been taken for granted.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

drdel said:



			Explanations would require some specifics which you would then cite as not relevant because I cannot go into the context.

Thus I don't propose to get into an argument to no purpose about the NHS 'business processes' and their implementation. I am not rubbishing staff who are working hard to stand still because of poor processes/controls.

I'm just saying the NHS issues/backlog are not just money unusual COVID demand
		
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You should be involved in politics! Oh, hang on...You are/have been!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Hence my initial point this morning about the NHS being severely under pressure for many a year.
The Staff at all levels have been taken for granted.
		
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Start working on the bad practices and then that will help. The example @Ethan gave is a nonsense. I can't see how anyone would see that as being effective, it is built in inefficiency. There has to be a method to look at these examples and sort them out.


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Start working on the bad practices and then that will help. The example @Ethan gave is a nonsense. I can't see how anyone would see that as being effective, it is built in inefficiency. There has to be a method to look at these examples and sort them out.
		
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The process I described is there to serve a different purpose, counting every referral and piece of patient activity and screening it carefully. The fact it causes delay, inconvenience and a waste of time and money does not concern those who are only concerned with counting new referral numbers.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you have pretty much proved the point being suggested with this example, unless I lost the point in translation. This is an appalling waste of time and money, adding unnecessary delays and layers of beauracracy into the system. Why does this continue when it is so obviously flawed?
		
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Actually, it seems more a 'flawed procedure' issue within the practice, perhaps simply correctable by passing such 'rejection' items to the GP involved (or 'a' GP) for confirmation. A little more 'beauracracy' involved, but less chance of such 'disasters'. There is a huge demand for access to GP, so such attempts at 'streamlining' is understandable.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The process I described is there to serve a different purpose, counting every referral and piece of patient activity and screening it carefully. The fact it causes delay, inconvenience and a waste of time and money does not concern those who are only concerned with counting new referral numbers.
		
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I get that, it sounds like an accountant with a spreadsheet set it up. It's flawed in the bigger picture though, I think we all see that, and when that happens it needs to be corrected. Too often, not just in the NHS, shoulders get shrugged and people just accept that is how it is. We shouldn't just accept bad practice, it should be changed to become good practice.


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

Interesting pre-print paper on boosters and antibodies: Paper, and the twitter thread: Twitter

Short version: Boosters really improve response to Omicron with Moderna and Pfizer pretty good after 2 and better after 3, and J&J 9which we can broadly correlate with AZ) less good after 2, but boosted nicely by an mRNA booster. Also, Omicron is an effective infector, 4 x wild type. 

Note: This is based on lab experiments and is a pre-print, not yet peer reviewed, but comes from high end scientists.


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## GB72 (Dec 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Interesting pre-print paper on boosters and antibodies: Paper, and the twitter thread: Twitter

Short version: Boosters really improve response to Omicron with Moderna and Pfizer pretty good after 2 and better after 3, and J&J 9which we can broadly correlate with AZ) less good after 2, but boosted nicely by an mRNA booster. Also, Omicron is an effective infector, 4 x wild type.

Note: This is based on lab experiments and is a pre-print, not yet peer reviewed, but comes from high end scientists.
		
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Do you know what the time frame is for the booster to become full effective, is it a couple of weeks like jabs one and two.


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## BrianM (Dec 14, 2021)

Got my booster jab today along with the flu jab, got in as a walk in.
Hoping I'm not going to feel like death tomorrow.


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Do you know what the time frame is for the booster to become full effective, is it a couple of weeks like jabs one and two.
		
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Not sure, possibly faster because the immune system is better primed to respond as it would if an infection occurred.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The process I described is there to serve a different purpose, counting every referral and piece of patient activity and screening it carefully. The fact it causes delay, inconvenience and a waste of time and money does not concern those who are only concerned with counting new referral numbers.
		
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It needs changing, surely people working in the service are capable of looking at it and making improvements.  If not then are we saying the NHS employs people of such a poor standard they can't see inefficient processes and change them.   If a process like that would have existed in my company some heads would have rolled.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Or maybe people are being selfish and just going around hoovering up as many tests as they can get thinking as long as they are OK and can enjoy themselves then sod everyone else. People are not suddenly showing a civic consience, people are selfishly doing what they can to ensure that they are fine over the Xmas period, same with toilet rolls, same with petrol. Seems that there was no problem until people were faced with restrictions on freedoms. As the petrol situation showed, you can have all the supply you need but it all goes wrong when people selfishly want to take as much as they can for themselves and all do it at once. Hard to prove either way and probably a mix of both.
		
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Disagree here

We are told to test twice a week so one box lasts 2 weeks 

However now we are told if we come into contact with covid (new one I think only need to check) that we must test daily for a week so box lasts a week

Announcement about this was made what Sunday night? To say from Tuesday you must test daily etc etc 

So Monday a shortage of tests.. doesn't Seem a selfish Surge seems a reaction to guidelines changing and people wanting a pack in stock so they can test for a week and be ready to obey the guidelines


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It needs changing, surely people working in the service are capable of looking at it and making improvements.  If not then are we saying the NHS to employs people of such a poor standard they can't see inefficient processes and change them.   If a process like that would have existed in my company some heads would have rolled.
		
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Quite possibly and it should be challenged. But just because one process in a 'system' is 'inefficient' doesn't mean it 'needs changing'. The change involved/required might be far more 'expensive' than any subsequent 'savings'!
If you, in your CEO role, authorised/demanded a change to an 'inefficient' process that cost more than it saved, who's head do you think would be the target?


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2021)

Just listening to Sturgeon on the radio and she suggests that the R number of the new variant might be over 4. Given that the initial variant had an R number of 1.5 (if I remember correctly) and we managed to reduce infections by 70% by having the full on lockdown doesn't having a new variant with an R number of 4 mean that we are up against it regardless of the restrictions that we put on? Not trying to sound flippant or suggest that we do nothing however if that R number is correct is there much we can do about the spread?


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Disagree here

We are told to test twice a week so one box lasts 2 weeks

However now we are told if we come into contact with covid (new one I think only need to check) that we must test daily for a week so box lasts a week

Announcement about this was made what Sunday night? To say from Tuesday you must test daily etc etc

So Monday a shortage of tests.. doesn't Seem a selfish Surge seems a reaction to guidelines changing and people wanting a pack in stock so they can test for a week and be ready to obey the guidelines
		
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Agree and this is the point that I was trying to make, it's not panic buying it's just people reacting and if you have households ordering 3-4 packs they should have been prepared for this before making the big announcement.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree and this is the point that I was trying to make, it's not panic buying it's just people reacting and if you have households ordering 3-4 packs they should have been prepared for this before making the big announcement.
		
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I think like most things in this country supply is very much a fine line with just about kept up with buying levels to maximize efficiency without waste

However like you say issues like this need thinking first 

That said. I think with the situation changing daily it is hard to keep up even if well planned


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Just listening to Sturgeon on the radio and she suggests that the R number of the new variant might be over 4. Given that the initial variant had an R number of 1.5 (if I remember correctly) and we managed to reduce infections by 70% by having the full on lockdown doesn't having a new variant with an R number of 4 mean that we are up against it regardless of the restrictions that we put on? Not trying to sound flippant or suggest that we do nothing however if that R number is correct is there much we can do about the spread?
		
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Anything that can be done most likely should be! Certainly better to attempt to reduce death rate. Of course, herd immunity - by survivors - would be faster - not that I'm suggesting that approach!


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I think like most things in this country supply is very much a fine line with just about kept up with buying levels to maximize efficiency without waste

However like you say issues like this need thinking first

That said. I think with the situation changing daily it is hard to keep up even if well planned
		
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Agree but surely with the announcement that you can avoid isolation by taking a daily test must have raised a few red flags re. supply. With the increasing cases this was always going to mean a huge increase in demand even without the standard testing that a lot were doing previously.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Quite possibly and it should be challenged. But just because one process in a 'system' is 'inefficient' doesn't mean it 'needs changing'. The change involved/required might be far more 'expensive' than any subsequent 'savings'!
If you, in your CEO role, authorised/demanded a change to an 'inefficient' process that cost more than it saved, who's head do you think would be the target?
		
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Mine for allowing it to happen in the first place.   In that particular case where it can affect people's health or even lives there's no question on it needing to be changed.  How much would such a change actually cost and more importantly, how much would it cost not to change it.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Just listening to Sturgeon on the radio and she suggests that the R number of the new variant might be over 4. Given that the initial variant had an R number of 1.5 (if I remember correctly) and we managed to reduce infections by 70% by having the full on lockdown doesn't having a new variant with an R number of 4 mean that we are up against it regardless of the restrictions that we put on? Not trying to sound flippant or suggest that we do nothing however if that R number is correct is there much we can do about the spread?
		
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From memory I believe the original strain had an uncontrolled R of three, the subsequent Kent and Indian were higher.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 14, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Do you know what the time frame is for the booster to become full effective, is it a couple of weeks like jabs one and two.
		
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I read  from a week onwards.


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It needs changing, surely people working in the service are capable of looking at it and making improvements.  If not then are we saying the NHS employs people of such a poor standard they can't see inefficient processes and change them.   If a process like that would have existed in my company some heads would have rolled.
		
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It all started with the NHS and Community Care Act in 1990, when the market system started to creep in to the NHS. It has mostly been only going in one direction since, although one or two mis-steps along the way. I was a junior hospital doctor at the time and I remember walking into the hospital one day through a corridor of offices and noticed some new titles on doors - Director of Quality, or something and wondering what the hell that was. Soon after I developed my first rule of NHS management - if someone's job title doesn't tell you what they really do, they are not to be trusted and severe no useful purpose.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Mine...
		
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I agree!


SocketRocket said:



			...In that particular case where it can affect people's health or even lives there's no question on it needing to be changed...
		
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Ban sale of cigarettes/tobacco NOW then! Alcohol too?


SocketRocket said:



			...How much would such a change actually cost and more importantly, how much would it cost not to change it.
		
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That (cost/benefit analysis) is surely one of the very early tasks in/before any project!


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			...I remember walking into the hospital one day through a corridor of offices and noticed some new titles on doors - Director of Quality, or something and wondering what the hell that was. Soon after I developed my first rule of NHS management - *if someone's job title doesn't tell you what they really do, they are not to be trusted*...
		
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This part I strongly agree with


Ethan said:



			...and [often] served no useful purpose.
		
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Inserted my inclination.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I agree!

Ban sale of cigarettes/tobacco NOW then! Alcohol too?

That (cost/benefit analysis) is surely one of the very early tasks in/before any project!
		
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Twaddle!

Are you suggesting I could ban the sale of cigarettes and alcohol, really! Also selling cigs and booze isn't  a Nation health procedure.
😂

Are you suggesting projects shouldn't get reviewed after implementation, really! 😂

Were talking of people's health and lives being affected by poorly designed systems. If you were the project manager that allowed a procedure like that then your head would deserve to roll, and if you did then it would need rectifying without delay whatever the cost.


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## RichA (Dec 14, 2021)

It's not just the NHS. I would suggest that high level administrators in any publicly funded body aren't considered to be earning their 6 figure salaries unless they're constantly reinventing perfectly good wheels to realign, outsource, upskill or deappropriate something or other.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!...
		
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That line described the rest of your post - at least as a reply to mine - perfectly!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That line described the rest of your post - at least as a reply to mine - perfectly!
		
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Your post was twaddle though.
😂


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## Ethan (Dec 14, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Ban sale of cigarettes/tobacco NOW then! Alcohol too?
		
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Right with you on cigarettes. 

But the relationship between alcohol and health is more complicated and there may be a small health benefit to a small amount of alcohol, which then disappears as you increase the dose and turns negative further along.


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## Foxholer (Dec 14, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Right with you on cigarettes.

But the relationship between alcohol and health is more complicated and there may be a small health benefit to a small amount of alcohol, which then disappears as you increase the dose and turns negative further along.
		
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That was the reason for the '?'! Though it also concided with reaching for my glass of San Miguel!


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 14, 2021)

This is the Covid thread

Just sayin ….


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you have pretty much proved the point being suggested with this example, unless I lost the point in translation. This is an appalling waste of time and money, adding unnecessary delays and layers of beauracracy into the system. Why does this continue when it is so obviously flawed?
		
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Perhaps the internal market framework in which (many/most?) NHS services are now delivered has helped generate this grim beauracracy…the patient’s GP has to order all or many of the services and treatments a patient might need, and of course these very often are not all known up front (Oops - just spotted that @Ethan has already covered this)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2021)

I am sure that this has been covered elsewhere here…but if I am +VE LFT I do not know if it is the omicron variant.  Must I take a PCR test if I so test positive. And does the PCR test identify omicron or not.  I only ask as I have a feeling that what I must, can and cannot do may be different for omicron than for previous (delta) variant.  If so how do I know.

i note that I am not…just heard it come up asked earlier but didn’t hear the answer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 14, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Agree and this is the point that I was trying to make, it's not panic buying it's just people reacting and if you have households ordering 3-4 packs they should have been prepared for this before making the big announcement.
		
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I am afraid that there can be no comment or answer to your question/assertion ‘…they should…’ - as even some supporters of this action wonder at the precise timing of its triggering. For another day.

Anyway, irrespective of timing, I believe all Plan B now this evening approved by HoC. We are fine with what’s required of us…but obviously we are once more concerned about the impact on the performing arts sector of the entry and attendance requirements on theatre goers, giggers and clubbers.  Hopefully things will go OK.


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## road2ruin (Dec 14, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am sure that this has been covered elsewhere here…but if I am +VE LFT I do not know if it is the omicron variant.  Must I take a PCR test if I so test positive. And does the PCR test identify omicron or not.  I only ask as I have a feeling that what I must, can and cannot do may be different for omicron than for previous (delta) variant.  If so how do I know.

i note that I am not…just heard it come up asked earlier but didn’t hear the answer.
		
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From what I gather you will only find out if it is Omicron if you are contacted by contact tracers. They’ll know as they’ll have been told by the lab. That said not all labs are able to test for the new variant so you may just get a positive PCR back and never know either way!! 

I don’t think there are any differences anyway, if your positive on a PCR it’s 10 days in isolation either from first symptoms or from positive test if asymptomatic.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 15, 2021)

This is very heartening if true and goes completely against the panic being advocated in some circles and the extra measures brought in. Hopefully it is a sign that the disease in turning from pandemic to endemic

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-give/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			This is very heartening if true and goes completely against the panic being advocated in some circles and the extra measures brought in. Hopefully it is a sign that the disease in turning from pandemic to endemic

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-give/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

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I do hope it’s the case but at the same time articles like this a bit dangerous.


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## Ethan (Dec 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			This is very heartening if true and goes completely against the panic being advocated in some circles and the extra measures brought in. Hopefully it is a sign that the disease in turning from pandemic to endemic

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-give/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

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There is no panic occurring. If there were, there would be much more stringent measures being implemented, and perhaps there should be.

I do not give money to the Barclay brothers, so I did not see who the 'expert' was or the basis for their breezy optimism.


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2021)

There seems to be a suggestion that Boris my call another briefing this evening off the back of today's COBRA meeting. Sure that's going to be full off Christmas glad tidings!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There is no panic occurring. If there were, there would be much more stringent measures being implemented, and perhaps there should be.

I do not give money to the Barclay brothers, so I did not see who the 'expert' was or the basis for their breezy optimism.
		
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Obviously there are 'experts' and experts, but feel free to have a look if you want to comment. And there has been plenty of panic stories of 70k deaths predicted from the Tropical something institute in London.


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## IainP (Dec 15, 2021)

Think this sums up current position :

"There is huge uncertainty over how many admissions there will be. Modelling has suggested the peak could be around half what was seen last winter or approaching double."


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			...
I do not give money to the Barclay brothers, so I did not see who the 'expert' was or the basis for their breezy optimism.
		
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I've a far less 'personal' approach to Newspapers - possibly because of my different starting environment.
Torygraph used to be my paper of choice (cf SWMBO's Daily Wail) but attitude seems to have moved more obviously (even) further right, soon the rare occasions (like Waitrose offers) I acquire a paper, it's likely to be The Times. Owner possibly worse, but articles less obviously simply political statements!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2021)

My kids are 19 and 21. They went onto the booking site this morning,  no fuss, boosters booked for this coming Sunday, in the town where we live at a time which is convenient for them. Happy days.


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## Ethan (Dec 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Obviously there are 'experts' and experts, but feel free to have a look if you want to comment. And there has been plenty of panic stories of 70k deaths predicted from the Tropical something institute in London.
		
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I did look but the paywall wouldn't allow me to see the expert or their theory, and I wasn't about to subscribe to the Torygraph to see more

The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine is one of the leading public health and epidemiology institutions on the planet. If their forecasts have resulted in changes which prevented the worst cases coming true, they will be delighted with the job they have done. They don't do panic stories.

Edit: Torygraph story also on MSN. Robert Dingwall, Prof of Social Sciences in Nottingham. So he is not a scientist at all. Feel free to go to him for medical advice, but I won't, thanks.

I did find another story in the Torygraph today which was free to view, which casts a different picture from the headline of the other: Torygraph panic story?


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Obviously there are 'experts' and experts, but feel free to have a look if you want to comment. And there has been plenty of panic stories of 70k deaths predicted from the Tropical something institute in London.
		
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LSHTM is world renowned, if low key, institution.
Typically, the 'panic stories', at least your post about, only mention the most pessimestic/'as many as' stats. There was also a 'most optimistic'/as few as stat, but that seems to have been either buried in the (newspaper etc) article body or simply ignored. But that's the way (most/many) newspapers work!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I did look but the paywall wouldn't allow me to see the expert or their theory, and I wasn't about to subscribe to the Torygraph to see more

The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine is one of the leading public health and epidemiology institutions on the planet. If their forecasts have resulted in changes which prevented the worst cases coming true, they will be delighted with the job they have done. They don't do panic stories.

Edit: Torygraph story also on MSN. Robert Dingwall, Prof of Social Sciences in Nottingham. So he is not a scientist at all. Feel free to go to him for medical advice, but I won't, thanks.

I did find another story in the Torygraph today which was free to view, which casts a different picture from the headline of the other: Torygraph panic story?

Click to expand...

My sense and hope is that these "scare stories" from London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and Professor Graham Medley, a member of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) are much less likely to occur. Lots of anecdotal evidence and the real-world study in South Africa pointing to milder symptoms. And that the scare stories are not factoring any of this in - and  the fact that the large majority are vaccinated and probably a large portion have also had covid. So we need to use far different assumptions on hospitalisations and deaths than what occured in the first two waves. Others have said that Omicron could be a blessing if indeed it is much more infectious and milder as it will speed up herd immunity and move this to an endemic infection. Excess deaths is a better guage now than infections. I am not sure we need these new restrictions - albeit they are currebntly not very onerous - Scotland have kept masks and from what i have heard theey have seen a similar trend to England - and Wee Jimmy has added extra restrictions there and Borris the Clown is under pressure to do more here. Dr Jenny Harries, head of the UK Health Security Agency, warned Omicron posed the 'biggest threat' yet. Where is the evidence of this given the vaccine rollout, natural immunity, booster campaign etc.


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## D-S (Dec 15, 2021)

656k booster doses given in the UK yesterday, a healthy rate.


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## Ethan (Dec 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			My sense and hope is that these "scare stories" from London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and Professor Graham Medley, a member of the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) are much less likely to occur. Lots of anecdotal evidence and the real-world study in South Africa pointing to milder symptoms. And that the scare stories are not factoring any of this in - and  the fact that the large majority are vaccinated and probably a large portion have also had covid. So we need to use far different assumptions on hospitalisations and deaths than what occured in the first two waves. Others have said that Omicron could be a blessing if indeed it is much more infectious and milder as it will speed up herd immunity and move this to an endemic infection. Excess deaths is a better guage now than infections. I am not sure we need these new restrictions - albeit they are currebntly not very onerous - Scotland have kept masks and from what i have heard theey have seen a similar trend to England - and Wee Jimmy has added extra restrictions there and Borris the Clown is under pressure to do more here. Dr Jenny Harries, head of the UK Health Security Agency, warned Omicron posed the 'biggest threat' yet. Where is the evidence of this given the vaccine rollout, natural immunity, booster campaign etc.
		
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Nobody disagrees that so far Omicron appears to have milder symptoms than Delta. However, milder initial symptoms do not necessarily correlate with fewer long term problems, and even a milder Omicron still risks causing a major problem because of its much greater transmissibility. The forecasts do make different assumptions for hospitalisation and death, as well as vaccination rates and residual immunity. People who say 'Its just a flu' seem to have forgotten that the flu puts a lot of people in hospital every year. 

The scientific assessments of this risk (known by you as "scare stories") need to be conservative because if we realise that Omicron isn't quite the gentle ticket on the tonsils that some think it is, it will be a bit too late to react appropriately. Anecdotal evidence is not a basis for policy decisions. 

As for the restrictions, they will get more strict. It is only a matter of time, but whatever they are they will be too late to make a major difference.


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## Beezerk (Dec 15, 2021)

Just had my Pfizer booster, very efficient at the centre I went to.


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Nobody disagrees that so far Omicron appears to have milder symptoms than Delta. However, milder initial symptoms do not necessarily correlate with fewer long term problems, and even a milder Omicron still risks causing a major problem because of its much greater transmissibility. The forecasts do make different assumptions for hospitalisation and death, as well as vaccination rates and residual immunity. People who say 'Its just a flu' seem to have forgotten that the flu puts a lot of people in hospital every year.

The scientific assessments of this risk (known by you as "scare stories") need to be conservative because if we realise that Omicron isn't quite the gentle ticket on the tonsils that some think it is, it will be a bit too late to react appropriately. Anecdotal evidence is not a basis for policy decisions.

As for the restrictions, they will get more strict. It is only a matter of time, but whatever they are they will be too late to make a major difference.
		
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I think we're focusing too much just on the severity of the illness on the individual. The issues, as I see it, is that mass infections will potentially impact the workforce across society. The consequential loss of capacity will not just be confined to Health but in all businesses. Grocery, power, refuse, education etc, etc: all predominantly use a Lean Supply Chain philosophy which is fine in stable conditions but it only takes a relatively small impact to screw the 'whole' chain.

That is why I think Government is employing a 'heavy hand'.


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## Pants (Dec 15, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Typically, the 'panic stories', at least your post about, only mention the most *pessimestic */'as many as' stats. There was also a 'most optimistic'/as few as stat, but that seems to have been either buried in the (newspaper etc) article body or simply ignored. But that's the way (most/many) newspapers work!
		
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Ffs Foxy.  Please post in the English version of English.  I appreciate that you were taught the language in another country but if you are unable to say what you want to say without having to use excessive punctuation, either get further lessons in English or don't bother.  Your posts are sometimes almost unreadable.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

drdel said:



			I think we're focusing too much just on the severity of the illness on the individual. The issues, as I see it, is that mass infections will potentially impact the workforce across society. The consequential loss of capacity will not just be confined to Health but in all businesses. Grocery, power, refuse, education etc, etc: all predominantly use a Lean Supply Chain philosophy which is fine in stable conditions but it only takes a relatively small impact to screw the 'whole' chain.

That is why I think Government is employing a 'heavy hand'.
		
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I guess it depends how many have it at a particular workplace at one time.  Its not unlike having a week off on holiday for many (in terms of time off work not r&r) and after their isolation they're back at work again.


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## Ethan (Dec 15, 2021)

drdel said:



			I think we're focusing too much just on the severity of the illness on the individual. The issues, as I see it, is that mass infections will potentially impact the workforce across society. The consequential loss of capacity will not just be confined to Health but in all businesses. Grocery, power, refuse, education etc, etc: all predominantly use a Lean Supply Chain philosophy which is fine in stable conditions but it only takes a relatively small impact to screw the 'whole' chain.

That is why I think Government is employing a 'heavy hand'.
		
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Exactly, and they should act with an abundance of caution, even if it makes some people who don't know how fine the margins are later carp that it was an over-reaction.


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2021)

Certainly get the feeling that we may end up with a Xmas but we can say goodbye to new year and January. I can live with that.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 15, 2021)

I know that we really care more about hospitalisation and death more than infections, but today is the first big infection jump in a while. Some 20K over night, appreciate that there may still be some weekend catchup going on, but still it's not a nice trend.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Pants said:



			Ffs Foxy.  Please post in the English version of English.  I appreciate that you were taught the language in another country but if you are unable to say what you want to say without having to use excessive punctuation, either get further lessons in English or don't bother.  Your posts are sometimes almost unreadable. 

Click to expand...

I think Foxy is a software developer and as such tends to express himself/their self in a form/manner used when writing/developing software (lots of parenthesis).


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## PNWokingham (Dec 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Exactly, and they should act with an abundance of caution, even if it makes some people who don't know how fine the margins are later carp that it was an over-reaction.
		
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an abundance of caution is saying lock down again. This is not going away this year or next - unless something nastier comes along i think we have to learn to live with it as part of day-to-day life. We cannot shield from this varient or any others that follow. Vaccines, improved treatments and options and new ones coming through mean we should be able to get on with life and not kill the economy and send mental health ballistic when we are not seeing excess deaths.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			I know that we really care more about hospitalisation and death more than infections, but today is the first big infection jump in a while. Some 20K over night, appreciate that there may still be some weekend catchup going on, but still it's not a nice trend.
		
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Is it not expected in midwinter, it certainly is with. Flu.


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## Ethan (Dec 15, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			an abundance of caution is saying lock down again. This is not going away this year or next - unless something nastier comes along i think we have to learn to live with it as part of day-to-day life. We cannot shield from this varient or any others that follow. Vaccines, improved treatments and options and new ones coming through mean we should be able to get on with life and not kill the economy and send mental health ballistic when we are not seeing excess deaths.
		
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Again, you offer this as a choice between public health or the economy. This is the mistake that has caused so much damage. Both of these go together. 

An abundance of caution does not necessarily mean lock down again. It could mean properly police the borders, rather than abandon the red list and quarantine, it could mean more extensive Covid passports and less tolerance of bullshit exemption claims, and could mean MPs showing an example to the population in their behaviour and attitude. 

But if we carry on with the half-arsed strategy, then it will be lock-down again, and those of you who have called for it will be responsible for it. 

This idea of living with it is nonsensical. There is only one strategy that will work, push vaccination and boosters until the number of vulnerable people are too few to maintain outbreaks, and then the level of endemicity is very low. So if you think that saving the economy is the priority, you should have been writing to John Redwood demanding more focus on vaccination, Covid passports, mandatory NHS staff vax and all that jazz. 

As for mental health, people manning that they are stressed or can't stand WFH any more is not mental health issues.


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## bobmac (Dec 15, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			I know that we really care more about hospitalisation and death more than infections, but today is the first big infection jump in a while. Some 20K over night, appreciate that there may still be some weekend catchup going on, but still it's not a nice trend.
		
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Deaths down, patients admitted to hospital down, patients in hospital down, patients on ICU down, testing up, vaccinations up.


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## Pants (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I think Foxy is a software developer and as such tends to express himself/their self in a form/manner used when writing/developing software (lots of parenthesis).
		
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"/" ()  !


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 15, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Again, you offer this as a choice between public health or the economy. This is the mistake that has caused so much damage. Both of these go together. 

An abundance of caution does not necessarily mean lock down again. It could mean properly police the borders, rather than abandon the red list and quarantine, it could mean more extensive Covid passports and less tolerance of bullshit exemption claims, and could mean MPs showing an example to the population in their behaviour and attitude. 

But if we carry on with the half-arsed strategy, then it will be lock-down again, and those of you who have called for it will be responsible for it. 

This idea of living with it is nonsensical. There is only one strategy that will work, push vaccination and boosters until the number of vulnerable people are too few to maintain outbreaks, and then the level of endemicity is very low. So if you think that saving the economy is the priority, you should have been writing to John Redwood demanding more focus on vaccination, Covid passports, mandatory NHS staff vax and all that jazz. 

As for mental health, people manning that they are stressed or can't stand WFH any more is not mental health issues.
		
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Agree with all that, except the emphasis on "properly police borders.....quarantine "
Once it is here then infections are increased by the populace predominantly more than anyone  coming in. ( horses ,stable doorsetc) .Omicron was acted on very quickly, could say as quickly as logistically feasible, yet it took an inexorable hold and increase once one or two cases were "in"


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2021)

Don't half feel sorry for the hospitality industry, they're being completely hung out to dry during what should be their busiest time of the year. 

Boris says that they're not going to stop anyone going out whilst Whitty tells everyone not to mix and ruin their Christmas. Whilst there are no rules to say that people should not being going to pubs/restaurants etc there is no compensation to be paid but obviously you've got the chief scientific advisors saying don't do it! 

Tom Kerridge on Twitter today reckoned he had just under 700 cancellations across his places alone.


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## Smiffy (Dec 15, 2021)

Had a nice Indian meal lined up for the sales team this evening at a local restaurant. Was going to be a good little get together with the ladies from admin coming along.
Service manager bubbled us to the directors who have put the block on it.
Cushty...😡😡😡😡


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Don't half feel sorry for the hospitality industry, they're being completely hung out to dry during what should be their busiest time of the year. 

Boris says that they're not going to stop anyone going out whilst Whitty tells everyone not to mix and ruin their Christmas. Whilst there are no rules to say that people should not being going to pubs/restaurants etc there is no compensation to be paid but obviously you've got the chief scientific advisors saying don't do it! 

Tom Kerridge on Twitter today reckoned he had just under 700 cancellations across his places alone.
		
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No rules only common sense.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 15, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			Had a nice Indian meal lined up for the sales team this evening at a local restaurant. Was going to be a good little get together with the ladies from admin coming along.
Service manager bubbled us to the directors who have put the block on it.
Cushty...😡😡😡😡
		
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I don’t see how your employer can dictate your life outside of working hours. 
You could go just not on company coin!


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## BrianM (Dec 15, 2021)

Have felt like s**t since having my booster yesterday, was a long day at work today.


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			No rules only common sense.
		
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Must be nice for restaurants to see people using common sense whilst getting no financial support.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Must be nice for restaurants to see people using common sense whilst getting no financial support.
		
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Wonder how many restaurants hold deposits. Should be standard practice. £20 a head reserve the table this time of year then if you cancel you know the policy 

I mean the airlines have their refund policy


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Wonder how many restaurants hold deposits. Should be standard practice. £20 a head reserve the table this time of year then if you cancel you know the policy

I mean the airlines have their refund policy
		
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Yeah, agree, shouldn’t be up to them to take all the risk. I’d happily pay that when booking although I’ve never not turned up. Would at least help minimise the damage.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 15, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Have felt like s**t since having my booster yesterday, was a long day at work today.
		
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Unrelated/Totally off-topic response - did you ever get yourself sorted with work? Vattenfall just got the go ahead for the Boreas windfarm off the north Norfolk coast and assume that Vanguard will follow. Scottish Power and East Anglia Hub ongoing off the coast out of Great Yarmouth.


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## Smiffy (Dec 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			I don’t see how your employer can dictate your life outside of working hours.
You could go just not on company coin!
		
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It wasn't on company coin, we were paying for it ourselves..
They felt that if somebody went down with covid it would have wiped out the sales department with everyone having to self isolate...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

My niece works on a covid ward in Raigmore Hospital, Inverness - she’s telling her dad that things are ‘terrible’.  Don’t know how bad that actually is but it doesn’t sound great.  She graduated with her Glasgow Uni nursing degree last week - some start to her nursing career 🙁


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## patricks148 (Dec 15, 2021)

BrianM said:



			Have felt like s**t since having my booster yesterday, was a long day at work today.
		
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I got my flu and could jag t the same time and was fine. Mind you the wife can't get her booster till Jan, despite us getting the 2nd one on the same day.


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## 4LEX (Dec 15, 2021)

Boosted today but will be keeping a low profile in the run upto Christmas as I don't want to spend 10 days in isolation. Winter Wonderland cancelled, football cancelled and more stuff next week. On the plus side more time for golf and the weather looks dry until Boxing Day 

I've got little time for hospitality as they've had a lot of help and have shown a lot of arrogance. If a pub or restaurant implemented vaccine passports out of choice I'd be far more inclined to go there, as would almost everyone I know. The only people put off are the nomarks of society who are usually broke and don't spend much. They make up the majority of anti vaxxers too. The vast majority of people are double jabbed or boosted and have money to burn, the pubs are ignoring that and favouring letting any old person in. Totally the wrong approach and people are cancelling and avoiding said places now. Total own goal for short term greed.


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## Hobbit (Dec 15, 2021)

Due to play in a regional bowling comp on Friday. Cancelled. A member of one of the squads has it. A per procedure here, full comp cancelled just in case another squad member has it and slipped through the testing net.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 15, 2021)

Smiffy said:



			It wasn't on company coin, we were paying for it ourselves..
They felt that if somebody went down with covid it would have wiped out the sales department with everyone having to self isolate...
		
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My mate moaned like merry hellfire about working in the motor trade. I think this revelation would tip him over edge.


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2021)

4LEX said:



			I've got little time for hospitality as they've had a lot of help and have shown a lot of arrogance. If a pub or restaurant implemented vaccine passports out of choice I'd be far more inclined to go there, as would almost everyone I know. The only people put off are the nomarks of society who are usually broke and don't spend much. They make up the majority of anti vaxxers too. The vast majority of people are double jabbed or boosted and have money to burn, the pubs are ignoring that and favouring letting any old person in. Totally the wrong approach and people are cancelling and avoiding said places now. Total own goal for short term greed.
		
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Absolute nonsense.


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## Hobbit (Dec 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			My mate moaned like merry hellfire about working in the motor trade. I think this revelation would tip him over edge.
		
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Unfortunately, a company can dictate, and discipline, for some actions outside of working hours.


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## BrianM (Dec 15, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unrelated/Totally off-topic response - did you ever get yourself sorted with work? Vattenfall just got the go ahead for the Boreas windfarm off the north Norfolk coast and assume that Vanguard will follow. Scottish Power and East Anglia Hub ongoing off the coast out of Great Yarmouth.
		
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Certainly did, working on the Moray East Wind Farm project, thanks for asking 👍🏻


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 15, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Boosted today but will be keeping a low profile in the run upto Christmas as I don't want to spend 10 days in isolation. Winter Wonderland cancelled, football cancelled and more stuff next week. On the plus side more time for golf and the weather looks dry until Boxing Day 

I've got little time for hospitality as they've had a lot of help and have shown a lot of arrogance. If a pub or restaurant implemented vaccine passports out of choice I'd be far more inclined to go there, as would almost everyone I know. The only people put off are the nomarks of society who are usually broke and don't spend much. They make up the majority of anti vaxxers too. The vast majority of people are double jabbed or boosted and have money to burn, the pubs are ignoring that and favouring letting any old person in. Totally the wrong approach and people are cancelling and avoiding said places now. Total own goal for short term greed.
		
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Have you been to pubs?  They are busy. Like a mask free haven. A safe refuge and a bastion of normality.

Bide your time you can go when they bring back table service and it has a dull atmosphere.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2021)

HID had the Moderna booster on the back of two AZ jabs. Really struggling and already off to bed. I had Pfizer for all three and although felt a little rough for 24 hours on each had no real reactions


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## 4LEX (Dec 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Absolute nonsense.
		
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Not at all. All hospitality care about is their own back pocket. Safety is way down the list. There is a way to balance both up which most have overlooked as they're indebted to their eyeballs. That sector is full of ambitious yet clueless people.

Those in property managment will make a killing next year


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## SocketRocket (Dec 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Have you been to pubs?  They are busy. Like a mask free haven. A safe refuge and a bastion of infection.

Bide your time you can go when they bring back table service and it has a safer atmosphere.
		
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Fixed that.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Have you been to pubs?  They are busy. Like a mask free haven. A safe refuge and a bastion of normality.

Bide your time you can go when they bring back table service and it has a dull atmosphere.
		
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I also remember a similar argument for the smoking ban where non smokers would feel safe and would fill the pubs if smoking was banned.  Those people never came and pubs shut. 

A sorry day for pubs throwing those ash trays away! That should of been a choice for pubs as well.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 15, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Fixed that.
		
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I can’t deny your annotation, but I’m on the side of jobs and livelihoods than lives.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

Interesting that on this evenings briefing Nikki Kanani suggested that if you go to a football stadium at the moment you should be going to get vaccinated and not to watch a football match.  And just on the latter, my single experience of a large crowd and showing your vaccine passport was that so many thousands were still outside queueing to get in when the match started that they simply stopped checking to get supporters into the ground and to avoid unrest in the fans stuck outside.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting that on this evenings briefing Nikki Kanani suggested that if you go to a football stadium at the moment you should be going to get vaccinated and not to watch a football match.  And just on the latter, my single experience of a large crowd and showing your vaccine passport was that so many thousands were still outside queueing to get in when the match started that they simply stopped checking to get supporters into the ground and to avoid unrest in the fans stuck outside.
		
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But the point is there won't be a defined start time e.g kick off and it will be a booking system. All these stadiums have very good facilities inside the stadium so it should be a reasonably easy thing to get it set up. Many stadium are easily accessible too


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## 4LEX (Dec 15, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Have you been to pubs?  They are busy. Like a mask free haven. A safe refuge and a bastion of normality.

Bide your time you can go when they bring back table service and it has a dull atmosphere.
		
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I love the pubs/clubs so feel torn about it all. But I can wait a few months for normality given the current situation. You're simply buring your head in the sand and pretending everything is fine. Which is exactly what hospitality is trying to do and why many places will go under. However they won't blame themselves, they'll blame the government. Even though the UK has the highest cases/least restrictive measures on the planet.


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But the point is there won't be a defined start time e.g kick off and it will be a booking system. All these stadiums have very good facilities inside the stadium so it should be a reasonably easy thing to get it set up. Many stadium are easily accessible too
		
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Must admit that’s not my experience of most stadiums. All fine when things are going well but, depending on capacity, when you’re having to stop every single person to check additional things it’s amazing how quickly the queue builds. I witnessed it at the Open this year, people getting to the front of the queue and ‘not realising’ they needed a negative test or couldn’t find the app!!


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Must admit that’s not my experience of most stadiums. All fine when things are going well but, depending on capacity, when you’re having to stop every single person to check additional things it’s amazing how quickly the queue builds. I witnessed it at the Open this year, people getting to the front of the queue and ‘not realising’ they needed a negative test or couldn’t find the app!!
		
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I take your point but at the ones I've seen it has worked well. I do think the sheer volume of people now wanting the booster may overrun even the most organised clinic


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## Tashyboy (Dec 15, 2021)

One for Ethan.

Below is the top rated comment from the BBC website today. Is there a happy medium? 🤔

Quote
I am an NHS consultant.

More people are losing their life from inadequate cancer treatment, cardiovascular interventions, delays in thrombolysis for stroke than from what appears (on early analysis) to be a less pathogenic form of Covid. 

We mustn’t let this, admittedly terrible pandemic, prevent us for caring for all of those who have treatable conditions and deserve much better.

Thoughts please me duck.


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## road2ruin (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I take your point but at the ones I've seen it has worked well. I do think the sheer volume of people now wanting the booster may overrun even the most organised clinic
		
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Ah sorry, I think I misread your comment. You were talking about stadiums as a booster/vax venue! I was talking about checking vax situation of fans wanting to get inside.


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## chellie (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID had the Moderna booster on the back of two AZ jabs. Really struggling and already off to bed. I had Pfizer for all three and although felt a little rough for 24 hours on each had no real reactions
		
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HID had that combo but he took paracetamol before and then for the following day. No reaction at all. Perhaps she could try that. I've had three pfizers and no reactions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I take your point but at the ones I've seen it has worked well. I do think the sheer volume of people now wanting the booster may overrun even the most organised clinic
		
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But I am talking about football matches - as these are going ahead even though Nikki Kanani is clearly not that keen on that idea.  I was at a Scotland game, 50,000 crowd, and so the fans should have been used to showing their vaccine passports at the turnstiles.  But when we arrived 20mins before k/o and many thousands were still outside it seems they just stopped bothering checking.

I have no idea what‘s been happening at Parkhead and Ibrox.   And maybe it didn’t matter that much with the delta infections growing but illness levels just about being managed - but with this variant on the rampage, it seems, I’m fearing that unless checking is strict this weekend and subsequent match days in the English leagues, then each match could become a super-spreader event. 

And if as usual fans turn up shortly before the kick-off, or even a bit earlier, there could be significant queueing and consequent unrest outside grounds if k/o are not delayed to let fans in, and we know what TV is like…


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I take your point but at the ones I've seen it has worked well. I do think the sheer volume of people now wanting the booster may overrun even the most organised clinic
		
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Maybe 'walk-in' ones as that' 'not organised', but surely those with jabs 'scheduled' ARE 'organised'.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But I am talking about football matches - as these are going ahead even though Nikki Kanani is clearly not that keen on that idea.  I was at a Scotland game, 50,000 crowd, and so the fans should have been used to showing their vaccine passports at the turnstiles.  But when we arrived 20mins before k/o and many thousands were still outside it seems they just stopped bothering checking.

I have no idea what‘s been happening at Parkhead and Ibrox.   And maybe it didn’t matter that much with the delta infections growing but illness levels just about being managed - but with this variant on the rampage, it seems, I’m fearing that unless checking is strict this weekend and subsequent match days in the English leagues, then each match could become a super-spreader event.

And if as usual fans turn up shortly before the kick-off, or even a bit earlier, there could be significant queueing and consequent unrest outside grounds if k/o are not delayed to let fans in, and we know what TV is like…
		
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I was talking about stadia for vaccines not football


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I was talking about stadia for vaccines not football
		
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I know. But when I mentioned in my post what Nikki Kanani said in the briefing, I was actually noting my hearing her implication that she’d rather football matches weren’t going ahead, or if they did then without spectators.  Maybe I misunderstood and she wasn’t implying that.  

But I think my point remains about covid checks of spectators going into grounds and possible, even likely, delays meaning checks are not fully done, and so risk of football matches being super-spreader events.  

I note that my brother chose to not go to Ibrox this evening even though he is a season ticket holder due to his assessment of the risk of infection, and that it wasn’t worth it and the risk for him easily outweighing the certain pleasure of watching his team beat mine.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 15, 2021)

My Mrs is ‘suggesting’ that when I play golf in next week or so I don’t go in the clubhouse. She is very keen that we minimise the risk of infection this close to Christmas as we need to be with MiL for Christmas. I guess that she is right.


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## Ethan (Dec 15, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			One for Ethan.

Below is the top rated comment from the BBC website today. Is there a happy medium? 🤔

Quote
I am an NHS consultant.

More people are losing their life from inadequate cancer treatment, cardiovascular interventions, delays in thrombolysis for stroke than from what appears (on early analysis) to be a less pathogenic form of Covid.

We mustn’t let this, admittedly terrible pandemic, prevent us for caring for all of those who have treatable conditions and deserve much better.

Thoughts please me duck.
		
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It may be true, but it may also be an apples and oranges comparison. First, we don't yet really know the effects of Omicron. The quoted NHS Consultant gives him or herself a bit of wiggle room by saying "on early analysis" but it is true that at first glance mortality is lower than other forms of Covid. Covid has two faces, one is a reparatory pneumonic illness, which appears to be mild in Omicron, but the other is a nasty inflammatory illness and we don't yet know how that plays out. 

Another important distinction is preventability. All Covid cases are theoretically preventable, but not all deaths in people with cancer or established heart disease are. I haven't seen data on whether cancer outcomes have been shown to be worse. There are lots of anecdotal stories about patients having surgery delayed, but that may or may not translate into a different outcome. Elective surgery in sick people has an operative death rate too. 

But the answer to both problems is the same. If you asked that NHS Consultant whether effective Covid control measures (lockdowns, social distancing etc) and increased vaccination (including mandatory) would help clear space for treating cancer or cardiovascular disease, the answer has to be yes. If they are saying that we should "learn to live with it" then it will inevitably cause more blockages in hospitals and GP-land for a while yet. 

I said earlier to Paul that the unifying theory for improving non-Covid care, the economy and Covid itself is the same - get effective control of Covid. We have not yet properly done this in the UK. Other countries have done it better, sometimes massively better. It can be done. Or perhaps it could have been done.


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## drdel (Dec 15, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			One for Ethan.

Below is the top rated comment from the BBC website today. Is there a happy medium? 🤔

Quote
I am an NHS consultant.

More people are losing their life from inadequate cancer treatment, cardiovascular interventions, delays in thrombolysis for stroke than from what appears (on early analysis) to be a less pathogenic form of Covid.

We mustn’t let this, admittedly terrible pandemic, prevent us for caring for all of those who have treatable conditions and deserve much better.

Thoughts please me duck.
		
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I think he is failing to see the wider picture of when capacity across the employment sector is impacted.


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			One for Ethan.

Below is the top rated comment from the BBC website today. Is there a happy medium? 🤔

Quote
I am an NHS consultant.

More people are losing their life from inadequate cancer treatment, cardiovascular interventions, delays in thrombolysis for stroke than from what appears (on early analysis) to be a less pathogenic form of Covid.

We mustn’t let this, admittedly terrible pandemic, prevent us for caring for all of those who have treatable conditions and deserve much better.

Thoughts please me duck.
		
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I'm not Ethan, but.....

Not yet; hopefully March (earlier if possible) - provided another variant doesn't appear.

I believe the above consultant is, not unreasonably, bemoaning the 'planning' process within NHS, which seems to put Covid priority 1,2,3...15 with other areas following behind. That process needs to be modified/made more flexible to cover peaks of Covid (definitely #1) but be able to use 'lulls' more effectively.

FWIW. I had elective/scheduled surgery (Hip replacement) in October which was significantly earlier than I would have expected.


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## GB72 (Dec 15, 2021)

On the football side, see a couple if clubs have reduced their capacity to 9999 so as they can avoid covid passports, not good. Should be based on declared capacity as per health and safety certification


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## Foxholer (Dec 15, 2021)

GB72 said:



			On the football side, see a couple if clubs have reduced their capacity to 9999 so as they can avoid covid passports, not good. Should be based on declared capacity as per health and safety certification
		
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Unless, of course, they are also restricting entry to the ground to that many also.


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## Papas1982 (Dec 15, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			HID had the Moderna booster on the back of two AZ jabs. Really struggling and already off to bed. I had Pfizer for all three and although felt a little rough for 24 hours on each had no real reactions
		
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Aka "I have a headache".....
"Sorry babe, today has just been horrendous" 😁😁


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## Tashyboy (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not Ethan, but.....

Not yet; hopefully March (earlier if possible) - provided another variant doesn't appear.

I believe the above consultant is, not unreasonably, bemoaning the 'planning' process within NHS, which seems to put Covid priority 1,2,3...15 with other areas following behind. That process needs to be modified/made more flexible to cover peaks of Covid (definitely #1) but be able to use 'lulls' more effectively.

FWIW. I had elective/scheduled surgery (Hip replacement) in October which was significantly earlier than I would have expected.
		
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Totally agree with you, Missis T rang has a problem  (potential) and yet the appointment with go and follow up consultation has been as normal. I have heard of problems elsewhere but how serious are they.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			On the football side, see a couple if clubs have reduced their capacity to 9999 so as they can avoid covid passports, not good. Should be based on declared capacity as per health and safety certification
		
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Carlisle utd were on the local news last night pronouncing that they were doing this. Somewhat optimistic, top attendance this year is 7,500 😂


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Carlisle utd were on the local news last night pronouncing that they were doing this. Somewhat optimistic, top attendance this year is 7,500 😂
		
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Doesn't it work on capacity rather than attendance? For example Colchester have a stadium that theoretically is 10k capacity. As such they would need fans to show a Covid pass to enter even though they would be lucky to get 5k on their best week, and 3.5k on a good week. By reducing capacity to 9999 they don't need to ask for Covid passes.


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## Neilds (Dec 16, 2021)

With regard to the number of jabs given each day, has anyone seen figures for how many are boosters and how many are previous "anti vaxxers" now getting jabbed so they can go out clubbing etc?  Hopefully there will be a large number of these people getting vaccinated as well.


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## D-S (Dec 16, 2021)

Neilds said:



			With regard to the number of jabs given each day, has anyone seen figures for how many are boosters and how many are previous "anti vaxxers" now getting jabbed so they can go out clubbing etc?  Hopefully there will be a large number of these people getting vaccinated as well.
		
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34k first jabs yesterday, it has been running at around 20k per day for the past few weeks so a slight uptick but I assume the majority will be youngsters so not making much of a dent in the previous older refuseniks. Hopefully boosters might nearly be up to a million a day soon.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Doesn't it work on capacity rather than attendance? For example Colchester have a stadium that theoretically is 10k capacity. As such they would need fans to show a Covid pass to enter even though they would be lucky to get 5k on their best week, and 3.5k on a good week. By reducing capacity to 9999 they don't need to ask for Covid passes.
		
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You could well be right. It just made me smile that they were announcing a reduced capacity that they are never, not this year anyway, likely to get. It's a bit like me saying I am refusing to kiss Jennifer Anniston for the next 2 months (Jennifer, I am making this up as an example, I'm still available )


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 16, 2021)

You will not be going to France from Saturday unless you are a special case, including resident and haulage driver amongst others. This is going to affect many people going on holidays for Christmas


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## Beezerk (Dec 16, 2021)

Feel a bit weird today after my booster jab yesterday, not ill as such just a very sore arm and a bit spaced out like someone has given me a space cake 🤯😂


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## bobmac (Dec 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Feel a bit weird today after my booster jab yesterday, not ill as such just a very sore arm and a bit spaced out like someone has given me a space cake 🤯😂
		
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Don't worry, the excruciating pain won't start until tomorrow and will only last a few days, a week at the most.















I may have made that up


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2021)

Do any of our contingent from north of Carlisle and Berwick have experience of how they’ve got on showing their vaccine passports when getting into Ibrox and Parkhead, and to lesser extent Tynie, Pittodrie or Easter Rd. 

I can only relate my experience of the Scotland game already mentioned when, towards and soon after K/O, the numbers still outside meant that checking at our turnstiles just didn’t happen.

Nikki Kanani suggested she wasn‘t great with the prospect of large crowds in matches, and with the R number being reported today as being between 3 and 5, I fear that matches with big crowds could become super-spreader events.

Any north of border experiences?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			You will not be going to France from Saturday unless you are a special case, including resident and haulage driver amongst others. This is going to affect many people going on holidays for Christmas
		
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I heard that some consideration would be given if you are travelling to visit family, but you’d have to self-isolate for 48hrs after taking a PCR test in France when you get there.


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## Beezerk (Dec 16, 2021)

Mate was in Newcastle last night on a works night out, he says every bar was asking for Covid passes before allowing entry.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Mate was in Newcastle last night on a works night out, he says every bar was asking for Covid passes before allowing entry.
		
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This is the approach that I would take on the situation, do all I can to make sure that those willing to come out feel safe and looked after as opposed to complaining about measures that stop them jamming people in to every space they have.


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## Beezerk (Dec 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			This is the approach that I would take on the situation, do all I can to make sure that those willing to come out feel safe and looked after as opposed to complaining about measures that stop them jamming people in to every space they have.
		
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I’m currently at a customer in Newcastle who have a handful of anti vaxxers working there, they’re having their Christmas pash up in town tomorrow night. I’ve just passed on the good news it will probably be a cheap night 🤣


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			I’m currently at a customer in Newcastle who have a handful of anti vaxxers working there, they’re having their Christmas pash up in town tomorrow night. I’ve just passed on the good news it will probably be a cheap night 🤣
		
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We have just postponed ours. Not because of the direct risk but the risk of being pinged or showing symptoms and having to isolate for Xmas day.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 16, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



*Doesn't it work on capacity rather than attendance? *For example Colchester have a stadium that theoretically is 10k capacity. As such they would need fans to show a Covid pass to enter even though they would be lucky to get 5k on their best week, and 3.5k on a good week. By reducing capacity to 9999 they don't need to ask for Covid passes.
		
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The  Gov.uk  guidance (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/nhs-cov...pass-at-venues-events-and-settings-in-england) says that the need (or not) to check vaccine passports is based on the number of attendees at an event/venue - it makes no mention of capacity


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## Beezerk (Dec 16, 2021)

Well the scrotes have found a way around the covid passes already, one lad got his son to send him his, another got one from the gaffer etc etc 🙈


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Well the scrotes have found a way around the covid passes already, one lad got his son to send him his, another got one from the gaffer etc etc 🙈
		
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It obviously relies on honestly. There is nothing to stop anyone simply registering a test as negative without actually doing it or getting a screenshot of a friends pass.


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## Orikoru (Dec 16, 2021)

I'm finding it odd that they've started simply calling it 'Omicron' now on the radio ads etc. i.e. "If you test positive for Omicron.." etc. Are people that bored of hearing about Covid that they're desensitised to it so the authorities have to act like this is a new thing again?


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I'm finding it odd that they've started simply calling it 'Omicron' now on the radio ads etc. i.e. "If you test positive for Omicron.." etc. Are people that bored of hearing about Covid that they're desensitised to it so the authorities have to act like this is a new thing again?
		
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Guess it helps in explaining why we are being vaccinated again to help with covid 2.0 unstead of old school covid.


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## Orikoru (Dec 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Guess it helps in explaining why we are being vaccinated again to help with covid 2.0 unstead of old school covid.
		
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I just feel like we're going to have this every year from now on. Get your jab for the Sigma variant, get your jab for the Upsilon variant, etc etc. Until they run out of Greek letters I guess.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2021)

Orikoru said:



			I just feel like we're going to have this every year from now on. Get your jab for the Sigma variant, get your jab for the Upsilon variant, etc etc. Until they run out of Greek letters I guess.
		
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At that stage Blue Peter will hold a 'name the next covid' competitoin each year with the winner being first to get the new vaccine.


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## Orikoru (Dec 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			At that stage Blue Peter will hold a 'name the next covid' competitoin each year with the winner being first to get the new vaccine.
		
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I vote for Covid McCovidyface.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

Just had my (Pfizer) Booster 90 mins ago. No issues so far.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 16, 2021)

Had the Pfizer booster yesterday morning and feel absolutely done in today.


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## GB72 (Dec 16, 2021)

Apparently at EFL clubs only 59% of players are double jabbed but 25% have no intention of getting jabbed at all


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## Ethan (Dec 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Apparently at EFL clubs only 59% of players are double jabbed but 25% have no intention of getting jabbed at all
		
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The same idiots are happy to let a physio inject their knees full of steroids, though. I know which one I think is safer.


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## pendodave (Dec 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The same idiots are happy to let a physio inject their knees full of steroids, though. I know which one I think is safer.
		
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I suspect a great many of them over the years were coerced by their managers and had the doses administered by medical staff. A greaf many of them are now in constant pain and likely to remain so. Maybe not a line of argument worth pursuing.


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## Ethan (Dec 16, 2021)

pendodave said:



			I suspect a great many of them over the years were coerced by their managers and had the doses administered by medical staff. A greaf many of them are now in constant pain and likely to remain so. Maybe not a line of argument worth pursuing.
		
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The doses are often administered by physios. With practice, not too hard to get it in the right place. I know some team docs and they have players coming asking for injections to shake off niggles. Steroids do have a short term favourable effect on a dodgy knee but can cause longer term damage. Some of the players don't, pun warning, play the long game.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2021)

Our anti vax, Covid denying relatives went away on a holiday camp 'Tincel & Turkey' weekend and now are quite ill with Covid.  Words fail 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The doses are often administered by physios. With practice, not too hard to get it in the right place. I know some team docs and they have players coming asking for injections to shake off niggles. Steroids do have a short term favourable effect on a dodgy knee but can cause longer term damage. Some of the players don't, pun warning, play the long game.
		
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I had an anti-inflammatory knee injection from a specialist when I'd damaged my cartilage, felt great for around three days then seemed worse than before.


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## fenwayrich (Dec 16, 2021)

I was at the Cheltenham Festival for four days in March 2020, just before the first lockdown. In hindsight it appears to have been a bad decision to allow the meeting to take place in the presence of 50,000 spectators. By allowing tens of thousands of people to mix at events over the coming weeks, is the same mistake being made? I appreciate that in theory they have to be vaccinated, but that alone does not mean they are immune from catching and spreading the virus.


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## road2ruin (Dec 16, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I was at the Cheltenham Festival for four days in March 2020, just before the first lockdown. In hindsight it appears to have been a bad decision to allow the meeting to take place in the presence of 50,000 spectators. By allowing tens of thousands of people to mix at events over the coming weeks, is the same mistake being made? I appreciate that in theory they have to be vaccinated, but that alone does not mean they are immune from catching and spreading the virus.
		
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Guess the issue is, if you don't allow events this year what happens next year? Covid is likely to be seasonal, next year there will almost certainly be another variant and we can't keep cancelling events etc as soon as we get into Winter.


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## bobmac (Dec 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Covid is likely to be seasonal, next year there will almost certainly be another variant and we can't keep cancelling events etc as soon as we get into Winter.
		
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If the non vaccinated get vaccinated, will there be more variants?


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Apparently at EFL clubs only 59% of players are double jabbed but 25% have no intention of getting jabbed at all
		
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pendodave said:



			I suspect a great many of them over the years were coerced by their managers and had the doses administered by medical staff. A greaf many of them are now in constant pain and likely to remain so. Maybe not a line of argument worth pursuing.
		
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Ethan said:



			The doses are often administered by physios. With practice, not too hard to get it in the right place. I know some team docs and they have players coming asking for injections to shake off niggles. Steroids do have a short term favourable effect on a dodgy knee but can cause longer term damage. Some of the players don't, pun warning, play the long game.
		
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Football players aren't paid the massive salaries for their intelligence!
Short term gains are often more important to Managers than the long-term health of their players! And often that seems to be players' attitudes too.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If the non vaccinated get vaccinated, will there be more variants?
		
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Yes!


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## road2ruin (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If the non vaccinated get vaccinated, will there be more variants?
		
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Of course, variants will arrive from countries that have very low vaccination rates plus we know that the vaccinated can still transmit the virus so it'll continue to evolve. Hopefully the evolution will continue towards a milder strain etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 16, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Guess the issue is, if you don't allow events this year what happens next year? Covid is likely to be seasonal, next year there will almost certainly be another variant and we can't keep cancelling events etc as soon as we get into Winter.
		
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Societal robustness to covid through vaccination and acquired immunity will be much higher next winter…let’s just get through this winter and spring as best we can.  Plus Whitty advises that not too far down the road we will have much more sophisticated and flexible vaccines than the single variant type we have at the moment - with the flexibility that should hopefully be able to cope with many variants.


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## bobmac (Dec 16, 2021)

Dr Purvi Parikh doesn't agree...

Unvaccinated People Are Increasing the Chances for More Coronavirus Variants


_If everyone is vaccinated, eventually infections drop to zero and so do variants,“ Parikh said. “But if the virus has an easy host, such as an unvaccinated individual, then it is easy for it to mutate into a more contagious and virulent form.”_

_https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how_


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## road2ruin (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Dr Purvi Parikh doesn't agree...

Unvaccinated People Are Increasing the Chances for More Coronavirus Variants


_If everyone is vaccinated, eventually infections drop to zero and so do variants,“ Parikh said. “But if the virus has an easy host, such as an unvaccinated individual, then it is easy for it to mutate into a more contagious and virulent form.”_

_https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how_

Click to expand...

In that case we should be sending our vaccinations abroad rather than giving it to 5 year olds!! Anyway, in answer to your original question the answer is still 'yes', there will be further variants as large parts of the world are still not vaccinated.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Dr Purvi Parikh doesn't agree...

Unvaccinated People Are Increasing the Chances for More Coronavirus Variants


_*If everyone is vaccinated, eventually infections drop to zero and so do variants*,“ Parikh said. “But if the virus has an easy host, such as an unvaccinated individual, then it is easy for it to mutate into a more contagious and virulent form.”_

_https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how_

Click to expand...

That (bold bit) assumes that all the variants arose from human infection.
As the original source of the virus was not human (probably bats?) there is still the the possibility/likelihood of variants coming from other sources/hosts.


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## Ethan (Dec 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I had an anti-inflammatory knee injection from a specialist when I'd damaged my cartilage, felt great for around three days then seemed worse than before.
		
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It is fine for specific purposes, usually an inflammatory flare, but repeat doses, especially over a short time are a bad idea. I am doing some work with doctors who treat various forms of arthritis, and more than a few of them really hate steroids injections for joints.


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## Ethan (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Dr Purvi Parikh doesn't agree...

Unvaccinated People Are Increasing the Chances for More Coronavirus Variants


_If everyone is vaccinated, eventually infections drop to zero and so do variants,“ Parikh said. “But if the virus has an easy host, such as an unvaccinated individual, then it is easy for it to mutate into a more contagious and virulent form.”_

_https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how_

Click to expand...

She (edit after bobmac comment) is partly right. Viruses really like partially immune people, because they have some resistance but not enough, so that drives evolution of a fitter virus. It may not be a coincidence that several variants have arisen in parts of Africa with a high prevalence of HIV, where they have an impaired immune response.


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## bobmac (Dec 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



*He* is partly right.
		
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She
Before Foxy corrects you, unless he already has


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## Ethan (Dec 16, 2021)

bobmac said:



			She
Before Foxy corrects you, unless he already has  

Click to expand...

Noted. I was thinking more about viral evolution that gender.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 16, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is fine for specific purposes, usually an inflammatory flare, but repeat doses, especially over a short time are a bad idea. I am doing some work with doctors who treat various forms of arthritis, and more than a few of them really hate steroids injections for joints.
		
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It was a Cortisone injection. Is that anti-inflammatory?


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## Ethan (Dec 16, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It was a Cortisone injection. Is that anti-inflammatory?
		
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Yes, it is an anti-inflammatory corticosteroid. Repeat injection, especially too close together is the big non-no. One-off injections for flares or inflammatory episodes are OK.


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## Old Skier (Dec 16, 2021)

Missis back from her stint at the vaccine centre an hour late. She does admin and reckons that around 50% of today’s contingent should have had their booster weeks ago.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 16, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That (bold bit) assumes that all the variants arose from human infection.
As the original source of the virus was not human (probably bats?) there is still the the possibility/likelihood of variants coming from other sources/hosts.
		
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As to the source, Ive not seen evidence  that non human involvement has been entirely proven. Is there such evidence?


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## williamalex1 (Dec 17, 2021)

Do air conditioning units actually reduce the virus circulating or increase it , just a thought


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As to the source, Ive not seen evidence  that non human involvement has been entirely proven. Is there such evidence?
		
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Only 'beliefs', same as 'via leak from Chinese lab'. - the 'Human inolvement' belief, which happens to be more 'convenient' for conspiracy theorists. There doesn't appear to be convincing evidence either way.
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3001115#sec001
Other Covid (not this one/these ones) virus sources are definitely believed to be animal sourced, certainly the MERS one that appear to utilise Dromendary Camels, though original source is also suggested as bats.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-...t-respiratory-syndrome-coronavirus-(mers-cov)


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

bobmac said:



			She
Before Foxy corrects you, unless he already has  

Click to expand...

Oh the irony - if not hypocrisy!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2021)

Going into our local Co Op this morning and it looks like some just aren’t going to bother with masks - the staff said it was the same demographic- the under 30’s , you could see that this morning as well , the guys walking in to the shop just not wearing , when challenged- its the same “meh” response


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Going into our local Co Op this morning and it looks like some just aren’t going to bother with masks - the staff said it was the same demographic- the under 30’s , you could see that this morning as well , the guys walking in to the shop just not wearing , when challenged- its the same “meh” response
		
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Unfortunately you'll not get irresponsible idiots acting responsibly especially when many do it to make a misguided statement of bravado or rebellion!


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## Imurg (Dec 17, 2021)

Had 2 texts from clients, within 4 minutes of each other, saying they e been in contact with a +ve tester....sensible thing to do is cancel the lessons....
Could be a quiet end to the year....


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## GB72 (Dec 17, 2021)

South Africa & WHO:  'Omicron is really mild and no risk to anyone and it is a disgrace that you are restricting travel'

Travel Ban Lifted

Also South Africa: 'Actually it looks like Omicron is just as harmful as anything else and our hopital figures are rising'


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Going into our local Co Op this morning and it looks like some just aren’t going to bother with masks - the staff said it was the same demographic- the under 30’s , you could see that this morning as well , the guys walking in to the shop just not wearing , when challenged- its the same “meh” response
		
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Perhaps the store should/could provide masks free. It's likely the 'can't be bovvered' attitude applies to acquiring masks as well.
My nearest large store does, and I've not seen anyone in it not wearing a mask (save those exempted).


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps the store should provide masks free. It's likely the 'can't be bovvered' attitude applies to acquiring masks as well.
My nearest large store does, and I've not seen anyone in it not wearing a mask (save those exempted).
		
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Yea, course, it's the store's responsibility 🙄


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yea, course, it's the store's responsibility 🙄
		
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Did I state/imply that? Perhaps 'could' would have been a better term/alternative to 'should' too - duly amended on original for (keen) misinterpreters! 
To quote another store's catchline....Every Little Helps.


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yea, course, it's the store's responsibility 🙄
		
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To be fair a lot of the stores around me are doing it. The bigger stores have boxes of them at the entrance whilst the smaller stores allow you to buy a mask for 20p or so.


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## D-S (Dec 17, 2021)

Odd that the French are placing additional restrictions for visitors from the UK. 
For the past 3 days cases there are 65k+ and deaths 150+. 
If this isn’t Omicron driven already then they’re in for a big shock when that wave breaks there.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2021)

D-S said:



			Odd that the French are placing additional restrictions for visitors from the UK.
For the past 3 days cases there are 65k+ and deaths 150+.
If this isn’t Omicron driven already then they’re in for a big shock when that wave breaks there.
		
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And I don't believe they have as broad a test capability/capacity: ' test less and see less'.


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## woofers (Dec 17, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Also South Africa: 'Actually it looks like Omicron is just as harmful as anything else and our hopital figures are rising'
		
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Source ?? Because reading in The Times this morning it’s anything but that.


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

woofers said:



			Source ?? Because reading in The Times this morning it’s anything but that.
		
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I suspect it's from this report....

_South Africa's health minister says his government believes vaccines and a high level of prior Covid-19 infection are contributing to the wave of milder disease caused by the Omicron variant.

There have been some early suggestions that the Omicron variant driving the country's fourth wave is causing a less severe illness than previous variants in South Africa.

But Joe Phaala told reporters on Friday that the government does not believe the variant is necessarily less virulent than previous waves of the virus.

He said the country was benefiting from the combination of vaccinations and the "natural immunity of people who have already had contact with the virus".

Michelle Groome, from the National Institute for Communicable Diseases, added that there had been an uptick in Covid-19 hospital admissions and deaths in recent days.

Vaccination levels in South Africa are high by continental standards, with 44% of the population having received at least one jab, though this is below the government's target to vaccinate 67% of the population by the end of 2021._


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## Ethan (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I suspect it's from this report....

_South Africa's health minister says his government believes vaccines and a high level of prior Covid-19 infection are contributing to the wave of milder disease caused by the Omicron variant._

_There have been some early suggestions that the Omicron variant driving the country's fourth wave is causing a less severe illness than previous variants in South Africa._

_But Joe Phaala told reporters on Friday that the government does not believe the variant is necessarily less virulent than previous waves of the virus._

_He said the country was benefiting from the combination of vaccinations and the "natural immunity of people who have already had contact with the virus"._

_Michelle Groome, from the National Institute for Communicable Diseases, added that there had been an uptick in Covid-19 hospital admissions and deaths in recent days._

_Vaccination levels in South Africa are high by continental standards, with 44% of the population having received at least one jab, though this is below the government's target to vaccinate 67% of the population by the end of 2021._

Click to expand...

I hope they are right, but from a public health response point of view, it is unwise to rely on early observations which may not fully reflect the full picture.


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## GB72 (Dec 17, 2021)

woofers said:



			Source ?? Because reading in The Times this morning it’s anything but that.
		
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Yes, the one quoted by Road2Ruin as appeared on the BBC News website


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2021)

I find pretty disgraceful, if not disgusting, the various recent and current attacks on Chris Whitty being made by some media; the usual suspects, and some others of a certain bent.  Shameful - and a dangerous road to set off down.  Those who are in a position to condemn these attacks should do so without caveat and hesitation.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I suspect it's from this report....

_South Africa's health minister says his government believes vaccines and a high level of prior Covid-19 infection are contributing to the wave of milder disease caused by the Omicron variant._

_There have been some early suggestions that the Omicron variant driving the country's fourth wave is causing a less severe illness than previous variants in South Africa._

_But Joe Phaala told reporters on Friday that the government does not believe the variant is necessarily less virulent than previous waves of the virus._

_He said the country was benefiting from the combination of vaccinations and the "natural immunity of people who have already had contact with the virus"._

_Michelle Groome, from the National Institute for Communicable Diseases, added that there had been an uptick in Covid-19 hospital admissions and deaths in recent days._

_Vaccination levels in South Africa are high by continental standards, with 44% of the population having received at least one jab, though this is below the government's target to vaccinate 67% of the population by the end of 2021._

Click to expand...

I think Prof Whitty gave a detaled explanation as to why a comparison with SA was unwise during the last broadcast


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## GB72 (Dec 17, 2021)

drdel said:



			I think Prof Whitty gave a detaled explanation as to why a comparison with SA was unwise during the last broadcast
		
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I agree, it was more about the leval of vitriol that was aimed at other countries by the African nations and WHO for imposting travel bans on what they put forward was a milder form of covid to then state that this is not the case.


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

Professor Doom (Ferguson) and his cronies have been at it again, apparently they have modelled scenarios whereby we could be looking at 5,000 deaths per day! I wonder why they still give this guy any air time, whilst I appreciate that they are only models I don't think he's been in the ballpark of being right in any of them so far and yet he is still listened to. To give that figure context that is 4 times the level of deaths we had during the peak of the second wave before vaccines had been rolled out. If that isn't scaremongering I don't know what is although I guess he's just trying to stay relevant in order to justify his wage packet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Professor Doom (Ferguson) and his cronies have been at it again, apparently they have modelled scenarios whereby we could be looking at 5,000 deaths per day! I wonder why they still give this guy any air time, whilst I appreciate that they are only models I don't think he's been in the ballpark of being right in any of them so far and yet he is still listened to. To give that figure context that is 4 times the level of deaths we had during the peak of the second wave before vaccines had been rolled out. If that isn't scaremongering I don't know what is although I guess he's just trying to stay relevant in order to justify his wage packet.
		
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Not surprising if you do anything of the nature of worst case; most likely, and best possible type modelling.  And what is most important with all modelling are the assumptions made for the scenarios and the level of uncertainty around each.  Then you decide what you want to mitigate against and put contingencies in place for.

it’s not rocket science - well it kind of is as I’ve done plenty of that 😳


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not surprising if you do anything of the nature of worst case; most likely, and best possible type modelling.  And what is most important with all modelling are the assumptions made for the scenarios and the level of uncertainty around each.  Then you decide what you want to mitigate against and put contingencies in place for.

it’s not rocket science - well it kind of is as I’ve done plenty of that 😳
		
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Seems like quite a good racket to get involved in. Pick a pretty horrendous number, treble it to ensure you attract some attention to get in the press and then avoid any criticism of (multiple) failures by claiming that it's 'just modelling of what could happen'.


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## Ethan (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Professor Doom (Ferguson) and his cronies have been at it again, apparently they have modelled scenarios whereby we could be looking at 5,000 deaths per day! I wonder why they still give this guy any air time, whilst I appreciate that they are only models I don't think he's been in the ballpark of being right in any of them so far and yet he is still listened to. To give that figure context that is 4 times the level of deaths we had during the peak of the second wave before vaccines had been rolled out. If that isn't scaremongering I don't know what is although I guess he's just trying to stay relevant in order to justify his wage packet.
		
Click to expand...

You do realise how these models work, don't you? There are assumptions about the relationship between observed cases and actual cases (it is widely agreed observed numbers are an underestimate), transmissibility, how long that trajectory will last, case fatality rate etc etc etc. Put it all in the spreadsheet and Excel throws out a range of numbers. The worst case one gets presented in the Mail as "DR LOCKDOWN CLAIMS 5000 WILL DIE EVERY DAY", when the actual report contains a more nuanced set of scenarios with sensitivity analyses (i.e. which assumption or factor drive the numbers).

Also, he is not trying to "be right". He does not work for Ladbrokes. He is modelling what would happen under certain scenarios, and the intent is to inform where actions can be taken to mitigate some of those.

The key assumptions appear to be:

1. The virulence of omicron compared to delta. They seems to have assumed a worst case that omicron is as virulent as delta. This seems pessimistic but is the pivotal assumption. Worst case is the safest to start from.

2. the R-value for transmissibility. The assumption is that omicron is 5.4 times delta. This is estimated from the doubling time for cases, so seems sound. There are 700 cases a day right now, and with a doubling time of 2 days, we would be at 10000 in 8 days. In terms of implementing public policy, that means doing something right now, if not sooner.

He also said that if the assumption that omicron is not as severe as delta is borne out, "it looks like hospital admissions may only peak at 2,000 to 3,000 a day, then it’s possible that something like plan B – maybe a little bit plan B-plus – might be sufficient, given the government’s overall motivation to do the minimum possible to avoid the NHS being completely overwhelmed,”.

I think this is a reasonable approach to modelling, so long as people read a bit past the Daily Mail headlines.

Edit: The actual report


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## garyinderry (Dec 17, 2021)

Is there any reason to publish the official number of omricon infections when it's quite clear its caused at least 40,000 in the last day alone.


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## GB72 (Dec 17, 2021)

garyinderry said:



			Is there any reason to publish the official number of omricon infections when it's quite clear its caused at least 40,000 in the last day alone.
		
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The mainstream media publish whatever fits the narrative they want. Currently they want to emphasise a plague of biblical proportions crossing the world, they want to pressure towards more restrictions and lockdowns, they would love to see Xmas cancelled then they can report aobout what a disgrace it is that we have more restrictions, look at the hardship and how upsetting the cancel Xmas. 

Not underplaying the seriousness of the situation but given up on the media providing impartial annalysis and insight.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

drdel said:



			And I don't believe they have as broad a test capability/capacity: ' test less and see less'.
		
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While testing may be(is definitely) less, so is Death Rate (a rather more important stat imo!) - even with a significant number more cases deemed 'Serious/Critical'.
A touch of 'nationalism'/Francophobia involved in your post?
Edit: FWIW, key figures for Germany appear more in line with (actually 'better than') France's than UK's. I'm inclined to think population density  could well be a factor.


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			While testing may be(is definitely) less, so is Death Rate (a rather more important stat imo!) - even with a significant number more cases deemed 'Serious/Critical'.
A touch of 'nationalism'/Francophobia involved in your post?
Edit: FWIW, key figures for Germany appear more in line with (actually 'better than') France's than UK's. I'm inclined to think population density  could well be a factor.
		
Click to expand...

With a younger population you'd expect less fatalities. 


Ethan said:



			You do realise how these models work, don't you? There are assumptions about the relationship between observed cases and actual cases (it is widely agreed observed numbers are an underestimate), transmissibility, how long that trajectory will last, case fatality rate etc etc etc. Put it all in the spreadsheet and Excel throws out a range of numbers. The worst case one gets presented in the Mail as "DR LOCKDOWN CLAIMS 5000 WILL DIE EVERY DAY", when the actual report contains a more nuanced set of scenarios with sensitivity analyses (i.e. which assumption or factor drive the numbers).

Also, he is not trying to "be right". He does not work for Ladbrokes. He is modelling what would happen under certain scenarios, and the intent is to inform where actions can be taken to mitigate some of those.

The key assumptions appear to be:

1. The virulence of omicron compared to delta. They seems to have assumed a worst case that omicron is as virulent as delta. This seems pessimistic but is the pivotal assumption. Worst case is the safest to start from.

2. the R-value for transmissibility. The assumption is that omicron is 5.4 times delta. This is estimated from the doubling time for cases, so seems sound. There are 700 cases a day right now, and with a doubling time of 2 days, we would be at 10000 in 8 days. In terms of implementing public policy, that means doing something right now, if not sooner.

He also said that if the assumption that omicron is not as severe as delta is borne out, "it looks like hospital admissions may only peak at 2,000 to 3,000 a day, then it’s possible that something like plan B – maybe a little bit plan B-plus – might be sufficient, given the government’s overall motivation to do the minimum possible to avoid the NHS being completely overwhelmed,”.

I think this is a reasonable approach to modelling, so long as people read a bit past the Daily Mail headlines.

Edit: The actual report

Click to expand...

I'd hope they are using the more current modelling tools of simulation than flipping Excel .


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

drdel said:



			With a younger population you'd expect less fatalities.
		
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Which would make UK figures seem even worse! Avg age in UK < France < Germany! Yet death rates are the reverse!
With 'throw away' comments that are demonstrably wrong. you seem to be in danger of over-stretching your believability/integrity!


Btw. Excel CAN be an excellent tool for quite sophisticated modelling applications - but does need in-depth expertise to be so! It's not, in/of itself a particularly good handler of large amounts of data though!


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## drdel (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Which would make UK figures seem even worse! Avg age in UK < France < Germany! Yet death rates are the reverse!
With 'throw away' comments that are demonstrably wrong. you seem to be in danger of over-stretching your believability/integrity!


Btw. Excel CAN be an excellent tool for quite sophisticated modelling applications - but does need in-depth expertise to be so! It's not, in/of itself a particularly good handler of large amounts of data though!
		
Click to expand...

Yes it was a throw away comment e.g a brief opinion for a thread on a Forum , rather than an opus for an academic journal,  so if course you can poke holes in the sentence. Do some research. 

I know you like the last word but give it a rest for Christmas!

Having taught many a postgraduate students and PhD researchers simulation research methods I'm well aware of spreadsheets and they rarely get built with good transferable 'program' principles, nor do they handle the likes of pdf's well.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

drdel said:



			Yes it was a throw away comment e.g a brief opinion for a thread on a Forum , rather than an opus for an academic journal,  so if course you can poke holes in the sentence....
		
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So you think posting BS on here is ok?! Your credibility has sunk even further!


drdel said:



			...Do some research...
		
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It took less than a minute of 'research' to identify the fallacy of your 'age' argument! I suggest it's YOU who should do a bit of research before posting!


drdel said:



			...
...I'm well aware of spreadsheets and they rarely get built with good transferable 'program' principles, nor do they handle the likes of pdf's well.
		
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Agreed. But my previous statement still stands!
Btw/FWIW. As a professional developer for over 40 years, including a couple of years training others, I agree re your 'good transferable 'program' principles'. Unfortunately though, the reason for poor quality academic apps is generally a different (narrow) perspective of what the purpose of the 'program' is. In almost all academic/research oriented 'applications' it's 'getting the results' that's the over-riding objective. Maintainability/quality/performance is rarely, if ever, a consideration. It's totally different in the commercial world! Perhaps that's their supervisor's fault! 


drdel said:



			I know you like the last word but give it a rest for Christmas!
		
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Surely that's what Lent is for!
AND FWIW....ZZZZZZZZ


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## spongebob59 (Dec 17, 2021)

Laura K Twitter

Important leak to my colleague Jim tonight below - SAGE minutes suggest tougher restrictions needed before New Year if we're to avoid 3k people going to hospital every day


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Laura K Twitter

Important leak to my colleague Jim tonight below - SAGE minutes suggest tougher restrictions needed before New Year if we're to avoid 3k people going to hospital every day
		
Click to expand...

I read this thread on Twitter earlier. SAGE ideally want no mixing whatsoever indoors and closing all non-essential retail however as a minimum are recommending going back to closing indoor hospitality and back to six people/two households indoors.

Obviously I cannot do anything if they close the pubs etc but I’ll happily ignore all bans on indoor mixing with friends and family. We will make the decisions on what we think is sensible and given that most are now boostered up I see no reason to follow those restrictions.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I read this thread on Twitter earlier. SAGE ideally want no mixing whatsoever indoors and closing all non-essential retail however as a minimum are recommending going back to closing indoor hospitality and back to six people/two households indoors.

Obviously I cannot do anything I’d they close the pubs but I’ll happily ignore all bans on indoor mixing with friends and family. We will make the decisions on what we think is sensible and given that most are now boostered up I see no reason to follow those restrictions.
		
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I guess if your choice let’s you down, you and your family will refuse medical treatment?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 17, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Laura K Twitter

Important leak to my colleague Jim tonight below - SAGE minutes suggest tougher restrictions needed before New Year if we're to avoid 3k people going to hospital every day
		
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They will be hard pushed to bring another lockdown as such with everything riding on the vaccines 

Cases maybe high but deaths are nowhere near the level we had this time last year

We were having close to 1000 deaths a day - right now it’s around 100


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I guess if your choice let’s you down, you and your family will refuse medical treatment?
		
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Having had two vaccines and the booster?! What would have been the point in that then? 

And in answer to you question, no I wouldn’t, I’d happily take it if required.


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## Hobbit (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Having had two vaccines and the booster?! What would have been the point in that then?

And in answer to you question, no I wouldn’t, I’d happily take it if required.
		
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Figures…


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I read this thread on Twitter earlier. SAGE ideally want no mixing whatsoever indoors and closing all non-essential retail however as a minimum are recommending going back to closing indoor hospitality and back to six people/two households indoors.

Obviously I cannot do anything if they close the pubs etc but I’ll happily ignore all bans on indoor mixing with friends and family. We will make the decisions on what we think is sensible and given that most are now boostered up I see no reason to follow those restrictions.
		
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Not actually unreasonable, but a potentially dangerous change of attitude for ongoing attitudes to decrees and laws - particularly by descendents - in the future! Heading towards the, at times ridiculous US attitude that's (claimed to be) allowed by their Constitution/Bill of Rights!


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## D-S (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not actually unreasonable, but a potentially dangerous change of attitude for ongoing attitudes to decrees and laws - particularly by descendents - in the future! Heading towards the, at times ridiculous US attitude that's (claimed to be) allowed by their Constitution/Bill of Rights!
		
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’Not exactly unreasonable’ but perhaps a reasonable reaction to unreasonable restrictions.
Note re my earlier point, recent (the last 3 days) death rates are higher in France than in the UK.


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

D-S said:



			’Not exactly unreasonable’ but perhaps a reasonable reaction to unreasonable restrictions.
...
		
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Who deems them 'unreasonable' though! And is that a societal conclusion? Or simply an 'attitude'! Earlier posts about 'wearing of masks' indicate instances of the latter! I still believe the UK public are willing to accept pretty severe restrictions 'for the greater good'. But blatant flouting of the rules by 'the political class' will be the fastest way to 'anarchy' imo!
And, as I've posted before, I believe Cummings's actions - and the 'non-action' by Boris started the trend!

Btw. Apologies if this seems is a bit 'political'. It's not really meant to be; simply a (far hunbler) AJP Taylor style description of events/causes!



D-S said:



			’...
Note re my earlier point, recent (the last 3 days) death rates are higher in France than in the UK.
		
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Same (more-so) in Germany! Could be any 1, or more, of many reasons that I won't speculate about.


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Who deems them 'unreasonable' though! And is that a societal conclusion? Or simply an 'attitude'! Earlier posts about 'wearing of masks' indicate instances of the latter! I still believe the UK public are willing to accept pretty severe restrictions 'for the greater good'. But blatant flouting of the rules by 'the political class' will be the fastest way to 'anarchy' imo!
And, as I've posted before, I believe Cummings's actions - and the 'non-action' by Boris started the trend
		
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Personally, I have no issues with masks, they’re annoying but have always worn them and to be honest will continue as they’re no great effort and they do not impact on my life.

In terms of the political classes flouting the rules, I really don’t care. They always have and will always continue to do so however their rule breaking doesn’t have any bearing on whether I follow the rules or not although I would agree that for a large number of people this will now be an excuse given.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Personally, I have no issues with masks, they’re annoying but have always worn them and to be honest will continue as they’re no great effort and they do not impact on my life.

In terms of the political classes flouting the rules, I really don’t care. They always have and will always continue to do so however their rule breaking doesn’t have any bearing on whether I follow the rules or not although I would agree that for a large number of people this will now be an excuse given.
		
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I have to wear a mask throughout the day, on the train home and so wearing it in the shops isn't a burden. It is clear so many are still prepared to not wear a mask and trust any jabs they have will protect them. I wish I was allowed to show them around the unit. People still seem blase and because Omicrom doesn't seem to be killing too many (to date) and it is reported not to be too serious symptoms wise they are prepared to take the risk


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			...
In terms of the political classes flouting the rules, I really don’t care. They always have and will always continue to do so however their rule breaking doesn’t have any bearing on whether I follow the rules or not although I would agree that for a large number of people this will now be an excuse given.
		
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It's the arrogant 'Do as we say, not as we do' approach that makes me mad!
While I sympathise with some cases, there are some that are some 'couldn't give a damn' blatant p-taking ones that 'get away with it' that really get up my nose - Ive already mentioned the, for me, 'worst' offender!


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I have to wear a mask throughout the day, on the train home and so wearing it in the shops isn't a burden. It is clear so many are still prepared to not wear a mask and trust any jabs they have will protect them. I wish I was allowed to show them around the unit. People still seem blase and because Omicrom doesn't seem to be killing too many (to date) and it is reported not to be too serious symptoms wise they are prepared to take the risk
		
Click to expand...

But the stats say that the vast majority in your unit are those who have chosen to go down the route of not taking the opportunity of a vaccination. I’m not suggesting that the mask less are right however trusting the jabs to protect us is exactly what we are hoping for.


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			It's the arrogant 'Do as we say, not as we do' approach that makes me mad!
While I sympathise with some cases, there are some that are some 'couldn't give a damn' blatant p-taking ones that 'get away with it' that really get up my nose - Ive already mentioned the, for me, 'worst' offender!
		
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I don’t disagree at all, I was only speaking from a personal point of view. Looking at the wider optic it’s a complete disaster for the Government as they’ll now have large numbers who might well have followed the rules who now just don’t care as why should they if those who make the rules don’t. You only have to listen to a radio phone in for an hour or so to know that those types of feeling aren’t a minority.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But the stats say that the vast majority in your unit are those who have chosen to go down the route of not taking the opportunity of a vaccination. I’m not suggesting that the mask less are right however trusting the jabs to protect us is exactly what we are hoping for.
		
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Not altogether true. A number in and ventilated at the moment are double vaxxed and relatively young - one with no underlying co-morbidities. I have come to the conclusion that covid survival and how severely you get it is a roll of the dice. The hardest part is seeing the effect it has on the patient, including the long term damage, and to the families is why I get so annoyed with people flouting a simple request to put a mask on. Not that great a hardship and surely now is the time to be compliant rather than risk starting 2022 in lockdown


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## road2ruin (Dec 17, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not altogether true. A number in and ventilated at the moment are double vaxxed and relatively young - one with no underlying co-morbidities. I have come to the conclusion that covid survival and how severely you get it is a roll of the dice.
		
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I appreciate you are there so you see it however I did say ‘the vast majority’ not all. There are always going to be those who are (thankfully) in a very small minority who get this and do suffer regardless of their age/health however that’s the same with all diseases isn’t it?


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don’t disagree at all, I was only speaking from a personal point of view. Looking at the wider optic it’s a complete disaster for the Government as they’ll now have large numbers who might well have followed the rules who now just don’t care as why should they if those who make the rules don’t. You only have to listen to a radio phone in for an hour or so to know that those types of feeling aren’t a minority.
		
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Agreed - but the comment I was going to make would be deemed 'too political', even by me!


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## Foxholer (Dec 17, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not altogether true. A number in and ventilated at the moment are double vaxxed and relatively young - one with no underlying co-morbidities. I have come to the conclusion that covid survival and how severely you get it is a roll of the dice. The hardest part is seeing the effect it has on the patient, including the long term damage, and to the families is why I get so annoyed with people flouting a simple request to put a mask on. Not that great a hardship and surely now is the time to be compliant rather than risk starting 2022 in lockdown
		
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Forgive me, but I thought you were in Admin/HR area of RBH. Am I wrong?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 17, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not altogether true. A number in and ventilated at the moment are double vaxxed and relatively young - one with no underlying co-morbidities. *I have come to the conclusion that covid survival and how severely you get it is a roll of the dice*. The hardest part is seeing the effect it has on the patient, including the long term damage, and to the families is why I get so annoyed with people flouting a simple request to put a mask on. Not that great a hardship and surely now is the time to be compliant rather than risk starting 2022 in lockdown
		
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Re the bold bit. Please explain why you have come to this conclusion.  Is it based on this one patient?


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## D-S (Dec 17, 2021)

The actions of others (in this case those in charge) maybe confirms my, and others’, suspicions about them and their like, but in no way makes their actions acceptable or even more so actions that can now suddenly be followed. If they all were caught drink driving, in no way would this see an upsurge in people mimicing them because it would suddenly seem acceptable. This seems a poor stick to beat them with, there are many better that would be more effective.
 I believe the public are very accepting of necessary restrictions and have had no problems so far but there will be a tipping point if those in authority cry wolf too often.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Forgive me, but I thought you were in Admin/HR area of RBH. Am I wrong?
		
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I expect, like the military, being admin/HR (REMF AND PONTI) no longer guarantees keeping you away from the action.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2021)

Anyone who uses the "they break the rules/laws so I will" to do the same, was always going to do it anyway. It's an excuse  and not a good one.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 18, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Forgive me, but I thought you were in Admin/HR area of RBH. Am I wrong?
		
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Homer is Admin in the intensive care unit, so will see first hand what is going on and will have to deal with families involved.


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## Foxholer (Dec 18, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Homer is Admin in the intensive care unit, so will see first hand what is going on and will have to deal with families involved.
		
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That explains it...thanks.
Admin, confirming my 'impression'...Yes; ICU, where effects of virus on patients/others visible...Yes


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don’t disagree at all, I was only speaking from a personal point of view. Looking at the wider optic it’s a complete disaster for the Government as they’ll now have large numbers who might well have followed the rules who now just don’t care as why should they if those who make the rules don’t. You only have to listen to a radio phone in for an hour or so to know that those types of feeling aren’t a minority.
		
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Well, Einstein was right then!


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## spongebob59 (Dec 18, 2021)

🚨🚨 | NEW: Covid-19 regulations being drawn up by the Government: 

➡️ 2 week circuit breaker after Xmas
➡️ Indoor mixing banned
➡️ Pubs and restaurants outdoors only 
➡️ Rule of 6 outdoors to return 
➡️ Schools and shops will remain open 

Via @thetimes


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## Tashyboy (Dec 18, 2021)

New years eve break in Cardiff cancelled.
Tomorrow's RBL Xmas get together cancelled.
2nd year running the mistletoe is wasted.
 Come what may, it’s for the best. Well in my eyes.


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## fenwayrich (Dec 18, 2021)

Just watching the PDC World Darts Championship, a seething mass of drink fuelled spectators chanting and singing in close proximity. I'm sure it's an enjoyable day if you are so minded, but I can't imagine events such as this are helpful in the current climate.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 18, 2021)

Had booster already booked for next week but got a text from Dr surgery this morning saying appointments available so come on down. Half an hour later all boosted up with Moderna (had AZ for the first two). Its not often I praise our GP but this was superbly choreographed.  Hopefully side effects won't be too bad as I've got a 4am start tomorrow


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			🚨🚨 | NEW: Covid-19 regulations being drawn up by the Government:

➡️ 2 week circuit breaker after Xmas
➡️ Indoor mixing banned
➡️ Pubs and restaurants outdoors only
➡️ Rule of 6 outdoors to return
➡️ Schools and shops will remain open

Via @thetimes
		
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So pretty much just screws the hospitality trade once again 

Why tell everyone to get double jabbed and boosted only to them ramp up the restrictions based on a “model”


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why tell everyone to get double jabbed and boosted only to them ramp up the restrictions based on a “model”
		
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Maybe the 170,000 new cases in the last 2 days may have a bearing on their decision.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Maybe the 170,000 new cases in the last 2 days may have a bearing on their decision.
		
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we will never be out of any lockdown if it’s just about cases then ? 

The level of testing has significantly increased so the case numbers will be higher but levels in hospitals and deaths are lower than this time last year when we went into lockdown 

They have pushed the vaccine which they state reduces the affect of the virus but doesn’t stop transmission - why should people bother with the vaccine then when they tell us it’s the key to less restrictions


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Maybe the 170,000 new cases in the last 2 days may have a bearing on their decision.
		
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This suggests that the the rise in cases is largely driven by the huge amount of testing we are doing. Far more than anywhere else in Europe. Positivity rate hasn’t changed at all over the last month or so.


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## bobmac (Dec 18, 2021)

I'm not going to tell you what I think because apparently I'm not allowed an opinion anymore.

I'm out


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I'm not going to tell you what I think because apparently I'm not allowed an opinion anymore.

I'm out
		
Click to expand...


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This suggests that the the rise in cases is largely driven by the huge amount of testing we are doing. Far more than anywhere else in Europe. Positivity rate hasn’t changed at all over the last month or so.

View attachment 40017

Click to expand...

This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 18, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			Just watching the PDC World Darts Championship, a seething mass of drink fuelled spectators chanting and singing in close proximity. I'm sure it's an enjoyable day if you are so minded, but I can't imagine events such as this are helpful in the current climate.
		
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It was great  And I can confirm that there was a similar disregard for any of the social distancing in the Rainbow Sports bar later. 😬


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from.

View attachment 40019

Click to expand...

Why has testing increased if not because more people have symptoms?


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## Fade and Die (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from.

View attachment 40019

Click to expand...

If we stopped testing then the mania might subside.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2021)

i can see a lot of people ignoring these suggested restrictions if they ever come in. People have had enough - we are all (apart from the covidiots) double jabbed and mostly tripple jabbed. Bojo will have a majpor revolt trying to pass this and may not get the support needed


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Why has testing increased if not because more people have symptoms?
		
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Because a lot of people are doing what has been asked and are testing before social events, seeing family etc. Think how many office things there have been over the last week or so, my wife went to one and everyone was asked to test, that was 150 people who may not have tested normally and none had symptoms.


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## Ethan (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from.

View attachment 40019

Click to expand...

That hypothesis could be plausible if the test positivity rate has dropped in the same proportion as test numbers have increased. Is that the case?


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from.

View attachment 40019

Click to expand...

But the cases are still there whether they've been confirmed by PCR or not - to be honest there's probably as many again that either don't get tested or show no signs and don't get tested.
How they got to the number of positive cases is irrelevant. 
The facts are that we've had 170k new cases in the past 48 hours and you can probably add another 100k to that number today.
These are all people who will have to isolate.
That's going to grind some parts of the NHS and emergency services to a standstill.
There simply won't be enough people to do the work to keep things going.
So when you have your stroke, heart attack etc etc there may not be an ICU bed for you, there may not be anything as the hospital has had to close because it has no staff..
The jabs are helping massively but its not foolproof....a small percentage of these people are going to end up in hospital and some will die.
A small percentage of a huge number is often more than a larger percentage of a smaller number.
If this thing isn't controlled to a degree then, I'm afraid,  we are in for a storm.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Why has testing increased if not because more people have symptoms?
		
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Because tests are required more - for example to attend a sporting venue or concert etc 

Myself and my wife now test every 2 days when previously we didn’t and suspect many more are doing so


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## Ethan (Dec 18, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i can see a lot of people ignoring these suggested restrictions if they ever come in. People have had enough - we are all (apart from the covidiots) double jabbed and mostly tripple jabbed. Bojo will have a majpor revolt trying to pass this and may not get the support needed
		
Click to expand...

Paul - do you think we might be in a better position now if they had not had relaxed so much on the f-ing stupid Freedom Day and/or had reinstated controls a bit sooner?

I think we would.

So why are we repeating that mistake again. We see a runaway train coming down the tracks and decide we'll do something in a week's time? That is the height or recklessness and the price will be more people in hospital or in the ground. All so Tim Spoons can sell some more of his end of barrel beers?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from.

View attachment 40019

Click to expand...

That's not where the cases are coming from, they're coming from the spread of Covid. Testing only reveals some of the cases.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Paul - do you think we might be in a better position now if they had not had relaxed so much on the f-ing stupid Freedom Day and/or had reinstated controls a bit sooner?

I think we would.

So why are we repeating that mistake again. We see a runaway train coming down the tracks and decide we'll do something in a week's time? That is the height or recklessness and the price will be more people in hospital or in the ground. All so Tim Spoons can sell some more of his end of barrel beers?
		
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we won't escape it no matter what we do. We opened up in the summer which, i think, was correct. All countries are getting this and have to cope - but they are doing so vaccinated, with far lower fatalities. I agree with Ian that the key worry is the number of people isolationg and what that means for managinmg everything. i actually went in a Spoons today - sish i hadn't as it was shiiiite!

We do not have a credible plan to manage the economy as this disease hopefully becomes endemic so the isolation rules will, at some point, have to be looked at because we cannot keep closing down the economy for something that is serious for only a very small percentage of people when we have been vacinated/ boosted etc. If we look at Soiuth Africa, the wave there looks to be easing/ peaking etc and it did not cause the massive amount of deaths that were predicted in a 30% vaccinated population. We are way ahead on vaccines so hopefully the 3000 deaths per day as the "best case" from Doctor Doom Ferguson will be massively exaggerated

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-Neil-Ferguson-7-000-Omicron-deaths-DAY.html


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## Slime (Dec 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So pretty much just screws the hospitality trade once again

Why tell everyone to get double jabbed and boosted only to them ramp up the restrictions based on a “model”
		
Click to expand...

Because not everybody is getting double jabbed and boosted, if they were, I'm sure things would be different.
I think this is our major issue.


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not where the cases are coming from, they're coming from the spread of Covid. Testing only reveals some of the cases.
		
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So the absolutely huge increase in testing is not influencing this massive rise in cases? I’m not saying that they catch all the cases however if our testing was at a level of 2 months ago for example we would have a fraction of the cases. Obviously they are still out there as their level is their level regardless of testing however the suggestion that it is spiralling out of control isn’t totally correct, it’s being driven by the fact we’re testing so much so we are finding them.


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## GB72 (Dec 18, 2021)

Seriously expecting a press conference tomorrow evening. Restrictions for the rest of the school holidays after Xmas


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## Billysboots (Dec 18, 2021)

I’m sure I’m not alone in having a rising sense of anger at how this is all playing out, and the fact that opinion amongst so-called experts is so divided that us mere mortals have no hope whatsoever of knowing whether we’re staring into an abyss or if this is all being blown ridiculously out of proportion.

I’m quite sure Neil Ferguson’s views are now treated with suspicion by many, but even he seems to be getting confused if recent reports of his comments are accurate. Days ago he was, allegedly, saying that if we didn’t act fast we could be looking at 5000 deaths each day. Now today, he says vaccines or previous infection are likely to mean most infected with Omicron won’t have anything more than a mild illness. I absolutely accept this is media reporting and that his actual words need to be viewed in context, but those two statements are at opposite ends of the spectrum so how are the rest of us supposed to know what to believe?

And I wholeheartedly agree that the decision to impose future lockdowns cannot be guided by infections alone. Omicron infections have apparently tripled in the last 24 hours, whilst deaths WITH it (note, not necessarily because of it - that old chestnut) stand at seven. Just seven. Even allowing for a lag between infection and hospitalisation and death, something doesn’t stack up. 

Virtually every report I am still seeing coming out of South Africa still suggests we have totally lost the plot. Yet the Welsh are so concerned that they are re-imposing stricter controls, including the closure of nightclubs. Yes, so concerned are the Welsh that they decided on 15 December to impose these measures. But not until 27 December. Excuse me? You’re either viewing this as a catastrophic situation or you’re not. What message does that decision send to anyone? It’s so wishy washy it’s laughable.

I will say for clarity, and before certain forumers leap down my throat and impose their expertise on me that I am but a mere pleb. I do not claim any true level of understanding about viruses, how they mutate, how they evolve and how they are ultimately brought under control. But I can read. And what I read is so vastly conflicting that I am beginning to lose patience with those who seek to impose their views on us, politicians and medics alike. And if I’m like that, you can bet your last pound so are others.

Just at a time when we are really needed to be on side with what others are striving to achieve during this mess, too many, myself included, are tiring of the conflict amongst those who profess to have the answers.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Maybe the 170,000 new cases in the last 2 days may have a bearing on their decision.
		
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Interestingly, just watching News. In those figures you quote, there were 90,000 new cases today.
Then they report that IN TOTAL there have been 25000 cases of Omicron.
So this is not a wave of Omicron so much as a wave of Delta.
Seems we have forgotten that Delta transmits readily enough when people disregard sensible,precautions and mingle as if there were no virus!


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So the absolutely huge increase in testing is not influencing this massive rise in cases? I’m not saying that they catch all the cases however if our testing was at a level of 2 months ago for example we would have a fraction of the cases. Obviously they are still out there as their level is their level regardless of testing however the suggestion that it is spiralling out of control isn’t totally correct, it’s being driven by the fact we’re testing so much so we are finding them.
		
Click to expand...

Yesterday there were 3200 confirmed cases of Omicron
Today nearly 10k....
Jus' sayin'....


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## SaintHacker (Dec 18, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i can see a lot of people ignoring these suggested restrictions if they ever come in. People have had enough - we are all (apart from the covidiots) double jabbed and mostly tripple jabbed. Bojo will have a majpor revolt trying to pass this and may not get the support needed
		
Click to expand...

I can see massive amounts of two fingers up at this, and quite rightly so in my opinion. 3 lockdowns, it comes straight back, jabs jabs and more jabs, its still there. It isn't going away, ever, so we need to learn to live with it. We can still be sensible and that but without the constant locking down/closing businesses etc etc.


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## D-S (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Yesterday there were 3200 confirmed cases of Omicron
Today nearly 10k....
Jus' sayin'....
		
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t this suggest that Delta is actually declining then despite the social whirl that is apparently continuing to happen?


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Yesterday there were 3200 confirmed cases of Omicron
Today nearly 10k....
Jus' sayin'....
		
Click to expand...

I don't doubt that the numbers of Omicron have risen and will continue to do so but are you saying that the huge rise of daily cases has nothing to do with the fact that our testing strategy has gone through the roof?

Look at the German numbers for example, if they're performing 3 tests per 1,000 people whilst we are doing 19 do you look at their numbers and go "look how well they are doing, their case numbers are so low" or is it because they are performing a fraction of the tests. I am not saying that there isn't a high level of infection out there, what I saying is that we are finding more of it due to our testing.


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			Wouldn’t this suggest that Delta is actually declining then despite the social whirl that is apparently continuing to happen?
		
Click to expand...

We're told that Omicron is now the dominant in London and other parts of the UK so, I guess, Delta is declining...


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## J55TTC (Dec 18, 2021)

D-S said:



			Wouldn’t this suggest that Delta is actually declining then despite the social whirl that is apparently continuing to happen?
		
Click to expand...

 Not really… pre omicron we were at 40-50k a day and now we’re at 80k delta and 10k omicron (if the figures are to be believed).


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I don't doubt that the numbers of Omicron have risen and will continue to do so but are you saying that the huge rise of daily cases has nothing to do with the fact that our testing strategy has gone through the roof?

Look at the German numbers for example, if they're performing 3 tests per 1,000 people whilst we are doing 19 do you look at their numbers and go "look how well they are doing, their case numbers are so low" or is it because they are performing a fraction of the tests. I am not saying that there isn't a high level of infection out there, what I saying is that we are finding more of it due to our testing.
		
Click to expand...

Of course we are...
You're going down the Trump route....
More testing = more positives
Less testing = fewer positives..
The infections are still out there...you sound as if you believe that if you test less you find less so there must be less around..
The reality is that somewhere in the region of 200k infections a day are happening  - were just not finding them all.


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Of course we are...
You're going down the Trump route....
More testing = more positives
Less testing = fewer positives..
The infections are still out there...you sound as if you believe that if you test less you find less so there must be less around..
The reality is that somewhere in the region of 200k infections a day are happening  - were just not finding them all.
		
Click to expand...

Not at all, I’m not actually disagreeing with you. What I am saying is that the all of a sudden cases are again the most important thing in the media and records are being broken day on day however there is no mention of the massively increased testing which is going to be behind this. I’m not saying that their isn’t a high level of infection however it’s probably been high for a while but we’re now finding more of it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because tests are required more - for example to attend a sporting venue or concert etc 

Myself and my wife now test every 2 days when previously we didn’t and suspect many more are doing so
		
Click to expand...

What, pcr tests?


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Not at all, I’m not actually disagreeing with you. What I am saying is that the all of a sudden cases are again the most important thing in the media and records are being broken day on day however there is no mention of the massively increased testing which is going to be behind this. I’m not saying that their isn’t a high level of infection however it’s probably been high for a while but we’re now finding more of it.
		
Click to expand...

As I said earlier, many are just dismissing the case numbers as inconsequential  - they're not.
Because each one has to isolate for 10 days.
An office or manufacturing plant that employs 100 people - if Omicron gets in there and goes around like it seems to be doing then a large proportion of those employees are having a 10 day weekend...and that establishment may grind to a halt because of it.
That can affect supply chains for food and other essentials ( another fuel crisis due to lack of drivers?)
And then it gets loose in a hospital. Before you know it you have 2 or 3 hundred staff off..
Many hospitals are running below normal staffing levels..take another 15% away and you're in trouble.
Hospitals closing, ambulances and fire engines grounded due to lack of staff - its a worst case scenario for sure but even a quarter of that is going to make things hard.
At current rates there will be 750k+ people isolating before Xmas.....thats a lot of the workforce


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What, pcr tests?
		
Click to expand...

LFT 👍


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## D-S (Dec 18, 2021)

An interesting note

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1472248618690170883


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I can see massive amounts of two fingers up at this, and quite rightly so in my opinion. 3 lockdowns, it comes straight back, jabs jabs and more jabs, its still there. It isn't going away, ever, so we need to learn to live with it. We can still be sensible and that but without the constant locking down/closing businesses etc etc.
		
Click to expand...

It's the "living with it" that is causing the increase in cases. Because they are living with it as if the virus is not there.!
Pubs rammed, sports venues rammed, indoors meetups as if we were in normal times. Therefore, the figures will rise ( and ,yes, were heading for herd immunity) , and if the figures rise with the percentage of invaxxed we have, then enough hospital beds will get taken up to bugger up the normal running of the hospitals and other life saving procedures can't happen.
So, either you refuse hospital for the unvaxxed, or you reduce the level of infections, because we have such a large number of unvaxxed they will get infected readily. Then too many will get seriously ill.
That is the reality of what is happening. Whether it's Omicron or Delta.
And at the moment the majority of infections are Delta.According to U.K. Health Security .
It's all about keeping hospitals functioning. It's not about trying to bugger up any part of industry or entertainment.
Do you really think these measures are brought in lightly?


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

Apparently London Ambulance Service was 100 ambulances down on numbers today due to being 400 staff down.
And there was a massive protest in London, no masks etc etc etc.....
Those against Lockdowns are bringing Lockdown closer.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			We're told that Omicron is now the dominant in London and other parts of the UK so, I guess, Delta is declining...
		
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No, look at figures today from UK Health Security as being reported now on Sky and BBC tv😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

Slime said:



			Because not everybody is getting double jabbed and boosted, if they were, I'm sure things would be different.
I think this is our major issue.
		
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Eggsbloodyxactly!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

Slime said:



			Because not everybody is getting double jabbed and boosted, if they were, I'm sure things would be different.
I think this is our major issue.
		
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Even with people getting the vaccine the level of cases won’t be hugely different. People are still getting Covid after having been double jabbed and with the booster - the whole idea was it was to reduce the level of hospital admissions and people dying from  it - cases are still going to happen


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## DanFST (Dec 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Even with people getting the vaccine the level of cases won’t be hugely different. People are still getting Covid after having been double jabbed and with the booster - the whole idea was it was to reduce the level of hospital admissions and people dying from  it - cases are still going to happen
		
Click to expand...

So what's the end game? 

I'm young, triple jabbed. Had covid 2x. Is this going to happen every year?


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So what's the end game? 

I'm young, triple jabbed. Had covid 2x. Is this going to happen every year?
		
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Until it weakens to become like Flu...probably...or we get herd immunity which would have the same effect.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So what's the end game?

I'm young, triple jabbed. Had covid 2x. Is this going to happen every year?
		
Click to expand...

It’s going to be just like flu - the virus will continue but the potency of it will reduce - each year people will be offered a Covid jab just like the flu


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## DanFST (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Until it weakens to become like Flu...probably...or we get herd immunity which would have the same effect.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't this omicron strain actually less risk to life than flu?


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Isn't this omicron strain actually less risk to life than flu?
		
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This is worth a read....the maths is interesting.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469466958865125376


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because tests are required more - for example to attend a sporting venue or concert etc

Myself and my wife now test every 2 days when previously we didn’t and suspect many more are doing so
		
Click to expand...

In which case, shouldn’t all the resulting negative tests mean the proportion of positive tests goes down?


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			In which case, shouldn’t all the resulting negative tests mean the proportion of positive tests goes down?
		
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Most people don’t record negative tests though. You do a LFT, wait for the result and, if negative, it goes in the bin. If positive you go for a PCR etc.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

DanFST said:



			So what's the end game?

I'm young, triple jabbed. Had covid 2x. Is this going to happen every year?
		
Click to expand...

It’s new, we’re starting from zero immunity, it will take time. Each year better than the next, but it could be many years before the impact is barely felt in winter.

That’s my theory, I’m no scientist though.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Most people don’t record negative tests though. You do a LFT, wait for the result and, if negative, it goes in the bin. If positive you go for a PCR etc.
		
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Your opinion is case numbers aren’t going up? Just doesn’t seem consistent with the data to me, but I’m no expert.


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## Old Skier (Dec 18, 2021)

Holland to go into full lockdown.  Bring out the water cannon.


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Your opinion is case numbers aren’t going up? Just doesn’t seem consistent with the data to me, but I’m no expert.
		
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No, not sure where you got that from, it’s clear that case numbers are high.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			No, not sure where you got that from, it’s clear that case numbers are high.
		
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“This suggests that the the rise in cases is largely driven by the huge amount of testing we are doing. Far more than anywhere else in Europe. Positivity rate hasn’t changed at all over the last month or so.”


“This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from”

^^There^^

Is your point cases are rising, but big spikes are because of extra testing?


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			“This gives you an idea of our present testing, we’re up to around 19 tests per 1,000 people which is roughly 1.3m tests per day. That’s where the sudden increase in cases is coming from”

^^There^^

Is your point cases are rising, but big spikes are because of extra testing?
		
Click to expand...

My point was we don’t actually know how fast cases are really rising but a large part of it is the huge increase in testing. Like I said, I’m not trying to suggest that there isn’t a large amount of infection out there but you have to recognise the level of testing we are running at the moment.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			we will never be out of any lockdown if it’s just about cases then ?

The level of testing has significantly increased so the case numbers will be higher but levels in hospitals and deaths are lower than this time last year when we went into lockdown

They have pushed the vaccine which they state reduces the affect of the virus but doesn’t stop transmission - why should people bother with the vaccine then when they tell us it’s the key to less restrictions
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t the obvious answer that the vaccine helps, we would be in total lockdown now without it, but it’s going to take time to build up immunity as a species to something totally new.
?

Continuous improvement


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## Imurg (Dec 18, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			My point was we don’t actually know how fast cases are really rising but a large part of it is the huge increase in testing. Like I said, I’m not trying to suggest that there isn’t a large amount of infection out there but you have to recognise the level of testing we are running at the moment.
		
Click to expand...

Do we know if the proportion of +ve PCRs is rising or is it staying around X%?


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Do we know if the proportion of +ve PCRs is rising or is it staying around X%?
		
Click to expand...

No idea, I haven’t seen data that distinguishes between positive PCR vs LFT, they’re just lumped together.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			In which case, shouldn’t all the resulting negative tests mean the proportion of positive tests goes down?
		
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No idea how many people actually register a negative test but I believe there were 1.5 mil tests carried out today and the percentage of +I’ve test results has stayed the same over the last 4 weeks


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 18, 2021)

As I’m into my third day in bed with covid and just bored I thought I’d take a quick look at some numbers. Not claiming anything, but just showing the numbers from the official daily corona update.

Avg weekly Positive tests / amount of weekly tests since start of October.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2021)

Canary_Yellow said:



			Your opinion is case numbers aren’t going up? Just doesn’t seem consistent with the data to me, but I’m no expert.
		
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Theres so much conflicting information around I'm totally confused and miffed with the current situation.

But I'm no expert 😉


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## pokerjoke (Dec 18, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			As I’m into my third day in bed with covid and just bored I thought I’d take a quick look at some numbers. Not claiming anything, but just showing the numbers from the official daily corona update.

Avg weekly Positive tests / amount of weekly tests since start of October.

View attachment 40027

Click to expand...

Wat r ur symptoms?


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 18, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			Wat r ur symptoms?
		
Click to expand...

Aching body, headache, cough, general fatigue and fever. Pretty much the lot. Still got my smell and taste left which is good. 👍


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## Ethan (Dec 18, 2021)

Imurg said:



			But the cases are still there whether they've been confirmed by PCR or not - to be honest there's probably as many again that either don't get tested or show no signs and don't get tested.
How they got to the number of positive cases is irrelevant.
The facts are that we've had 170k new cases in the past 48 hours and you can probably add another 100k to that number today.
These are all people who will have to isolate.
That's going to grind some parts of the NHS and emergency services to a standstill.
There simply won't be enough people to do the work to keep things going.
So when you have your stroke, heart attack etc etc there may not be an ICU bed for you, there may not be anything as the hospital has had to close because it has no staff..
The jabs are helping massively but its not foolproof....a small percentage of these people are going to end up in hospital and some will die.
A small percentage of a huge number is often more than a larger percentage of a smaller number.
If this thing isn't controlled to a degree then, I'm afraid,  we are in for a storm.
		
Click to expand...

If the case postivity rate rises, it suggests that cases numbers are rising faster than tested numbers, if the case positivity rate falls, the opposite.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2021)

If one of the main aims is to protect the NHS, surely those seeing the numbers are seeing the start of an increase in admissions. If there’s barely been a ripple, what’s all the fuss about? Equally, if admissions are rising, why all the arguing?

Focussing on number of cases only, if that is the case, is just ignorant.


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## pokerjoke (Dec 18, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Aching body, headache, cough, general fatigue and fever. Pretty much the lot. Still got my smell and taste left which is good. 👍
		
Click to expand...

Flu then?
But it’s COVID-19?


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## Ethan (Dec 18, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			we won't escape it no matter what we do. We opened up in the summer which, i think, was correct. All countries are getting this and have to cope - but they are doing so vaccinated, with far lower fatalities. I agree with Ian that the key worry is the number of people isolationg and what that means for managinmg everything. i actually went in a Spoons today - sish i hadn't as it was shiiiite!

We do not have a credible plan to manage the economy as this disease hopefully becomes endemic so the isolation rules will, at some point, have to be looked at because we cannot keep closing down the economy for something that is serious for only a very small percentage of people when we have been vacinated/ boosted etc. If we look at Soiuth Africa, the wave there looks to be easing/ peaking etc and it did not cause the massive amount of deaths that were predicted in a 30% vaccinated population. We are way ahead on vaccines so hopefully the 3000 deaths per day as the "best case" from Doctor Doom Ferguson will be massively exaggerated

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-Neil-Ferguson-7-000-Omicron-deaths-DAY.html

Click to expand...

The credible plan to manage the economy was to get control of the virus hard and fast. But prevarication and dithering, assisted by our local MP, put the knife in that, and the problem has been reported several times since. More half-arsed attempts will only further prolong the problem. 

Ferguson changes his forecasts as data changes the underlying assumptions, as he should. I attached his full report yesterday. Read that rather than the Daily Heil. His assumption on the case fatality rate with omicron is probably exaggerated, but the hospitalisation rate may be less exaggerated. 

We are not South Africa, for a whole host of reasons explained by others, and it would be extremely dangerous to make assumptions based on their early observations of omicron. 

And if you are afraid of catching something, should avoid Spoons. Lots of pathogens there, some on the menu.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 18, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			Flu then?
But it’s COVID-19?
		
Click to expand...

No……. MAN FLU! 😱


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 18, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			Flu then?
But it’s COVID-19?
		
Click to expand...

2 LFT confirms it. Haven’t done a PCR test yet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not where the cases are coming from, they're coming from the spread of Covid. Testing only reveals some of the cases.
		
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Indeed…re testing and the resulting ‘exposure’ of the level of infection - I see this rather simply.  I’d rather the curtains were fully drawn back so we can see the ‘crime’ being perpetrated in the room, rather than having the curtains only part open or drawn and not seeing.  Because not seeing into the room does not mean the ‘crime’ is not happening, and if we cannot see it we are less likely to be able to stop it or prevent it.

We need to have the clearest and best possible estimate of the *numbers* of infections in the population, because it is the numbers that drive the illness and absence from work, that can develop into serious illness and possible deaths, whilst at the same time posing a possibly crippling load on the NHS.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 18, 2021)

As usual a lot of exaggeration where people strive to make their points and lurid forecasts aiming for a bit of #metoo coverage and self promotion.

One death has been attributed to “Omicron”  with the deceased reported enjoying underlying health conditions.

Why do people like to scare each other so?


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 18, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			If one of the main aims is to protect the NHS, surely those seeing the numbers are seeing the start of an increase in admissions. If there’s barely been a ripple, what’s all the fuss about? Equally, if admissions are rising, why all the arguing?

Focussing on number of cases only, if that is the case, is just ignorant.
		
Click to expand...

Did a check on that now too. Weekly avg numbers of people in hospital back to start of October.


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## road2ruin (Dec 18, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The credible plan to manage the economy was to get control of the virus hard and fast. But prevarication and dithering, assisted by our local MP, put the knife in that, and the problem has been reported several times since. More half-arsed attempts will only further prolong the problem.

Ferguson changes his forecasts as data changes the underlying assumptions, as he should. I attached his full report yesterday. Read that rather than the Daily Heil. His assumption on the case fatality rate with omicron is probably exaggerated, but the hospitalisation rate may be less exaggerated.

We are not South Africa, for a whole host of reasons explained by others, and it would be extremely dangerous to make assumptions based on their early observations of omicron.

And if you are afraid of catching something, should avoid Spoons. Lots of pathogens there, some on the menu.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with the Ferguson etc models are that they only model the worst case, they ignore the scenario where Omicron is less virulent, they don’t put that forward even though it’s a completely plausible scenario. 

Also, the modellers model what they powers that be ask them to model I.e. what suits the direction of travel. 

This was a quote on Twitter today from Graham Medley who is a member of SAGE….

_“We generally model what we are asked to model. There is a dialogue in which policy teams discuss with the modellers what they need to inform their policy.”_

So basically they were only asked to model the bad scenarios.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2021)

Heard a woman on the radio today refer to Chris Whitty as being part of the SS … the ‘Sage Scientists’ she smugly explained.  Just beggars belief, but this is the sort of state the country is heading into when some feel it necessary to be open, honest and explicit about what we need to do, where others chose to prevaricate and obfuscate 😡


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Theres so much conflicting information around I'm totally confused and miffed with the current situation.

But I'm no expert 😉
		
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We’re all miffed and not sure any of us are experts.

However, plenty speak as if they are, which leaves me confused 😂 

To be fair I was an arm chair expert on curling at one point.


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## Hobbit (Dec 18, 2021)

I live in a small town of just 3,800 people. Since the pandemic began there’s been 372 cases, of which there’s been 4 deaths. All those that have died were over 80, 2 of which had underlying health issues.

Of the 8 municipalities(45,000pop) locally, we’re the second smallest, there’s been 5,004 cases and 71 deaths.

No doubt the fierce lockdowns we’ve experienced have made quite a difference, but looking at those numbers I do question has it all been a massive overreaction?


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## GaryK (Dec 18, 2021)

Had my booster yesterday evening and all good so far - only a rather sore arm.

Strange thing though is that I had the 2 x AZ earlier in the year and last night they said that I would be having the Moderna  booster.
When I got to the front of the Moderna queue, a rather lovely nurse approached me and asked if I'd like to have Pfizer instead - I really wasn't bothered which one I had, but they did give me Pfizer in the end.
The nurse administering the job said that lots of people of asking for Pfizer and aren't happy when they are given Moderna.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 18, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed…re testing and the resulting ‘exposure’ of the level of infection - I see this rather simply.  I’d rather the curtains were fully drawn back so we can see the ‘crime’ being perpetrated in the room, rather than having the curtains only part open or drawn and not seeing.  Because not seeing into the room does not mean the ‘crime’ is not happening, and if we cannot see it we are less likely to be able to stop it or prevent it.

We need to have the clearest and best possible estimate of the *numbers* of infections in the population, because it is the numbers that drive the illness and absence from work, that can develop into serious illness and possible deaths, whilst at the same time posing a possibly crippling load on the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't it a bit of a paradox though.  We only know the numbers when they happen and among us.  Leading up to that we have predictions based on mathematical modelling which have previously been wildly wrong. Remember 'Next slide please' last time where the modeling showed exponential growth of the Delta variant which never materialised although it frightened people to death.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 18, 2021)

GaryK said:



			- only a rather sore arm.
.
		
Click to expand...

Same here, I think she used an RPG instead of a hypodermic...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 18, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't it a bit of a paradox though.  We only know the numbers when they happen and among us.  Leading up to that we have predictions based on mathematical modelling which have previously been wildly wrong. Remember 'Next slide please' last time where the modeling showed exponential growth of the Delta variant which never materialised although it frightened people to death.
		
Click to expand...

We know that the exponential growth charts show what happens without mitigation, and we need to understand that to justify the mitigations - and so when the mitigations are successful the unmitigated growth is avoided.  That does not mean that the exponential growth predictions were wrong, they were simply mitigated. That many of the public might not get that, well that’s not the fault of the modellers.


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## adam6177 (Dec 18, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I do question has it all been a massive overreaction?
		
Click to expand...

I'm never going to say it's an overreaction, because I'm no expert... Just a guy with an opinion, but, I look at the ONS data for total deaths in UK from 1990 to 2020 and despite the pandemic, total deaths are only marginally up....despite total population being approximately 9 million larger.

This whole situation hasn't felt right or smelt right since day 1 to me.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 18, 2021)

GaryK said:



			Had my booster yesterday evening and all good so far - only a rather sore arm.

Strange thing though is that I had the 2 x AZ earlier in the year and last night they said that I would be having the Moderna  booster.
When I got to the front of the Moderna queue, a rather lovely nurse approached me and asked if I'd like to have Pfizer instead - I really wasn't bothered which one I had, but they did give me Pfizer in the end.
The nurse administering the job said that *lots of people of asking for Pfizer and aren't happy when they are given Moderna.*

Click to expand...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59489988

"In people who had received two doses of AZ, the study found a 30-fold rise in antibody levels after a Moderna booster, and a 25-fold rise after a Pfizer booster."

Mrs BiM & I changed our appointments to get a Moderna booster thanks to @Ethan who advised that the Moderna offered a slightly better response than the Pfizer for the booster.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 18, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’m sure I’m not alone in having a rising sense of anger at how this is all playing out, and the fact that opinion amongst so-called experts is so divided that us mere mortals have no hope whatsoever of knowing whether we’re staring into an abyss or if this is all being blown ridiculously out of proportion.

I’m quite sure Neil Ferguson’s views are now treated with suspicion by many, but even he seems to be getting confused if recent reports of his comments are accurate. Days ago he was, allegedly, saying that if we didn’t act fast we could be looking at 5000 deaths each day. Now today, he says vaccines or previous infection are likely to mean most infected with Omicron won’t have anything more than a mild illness. I absolutely accept this is media reporting and that his actual words need to be viewed in context, but those two statements are at opposite ends of the spectrum so how are the rest of us supposed to know what to believe?

And I wholeheartedly agree that the decision to impose future lockdowns cannot be guided by infections alone. Omicron infections have apparently tripled in the last 24 hours, whilst deaths WITH it (note, not necessarily because of it - that old chestnut) stand at seven. Just seven. Even allowing for a lag between infection and hospitalisation and death, something doesn’t stack up. 

Virtually every report I am still seeing coming out of South Africa still suggests we have totally lost the plot. Yet the Welsh are so concerned that they are re-imposing stricter controls, including the closure of nightclubs. Yes, so concerned are the Welsh that they decided on 15 December to impose these measures. But not until 27 December. Excuse me? You’re either viewing this as a catastrophic situation or you’re not. What message does that decision send to anyone? It’s so wishy washy it’s laughable.

I will say for clarity, and before certain forumers leap down my throat and impose their expertise on me that I am but a mere pleb. I do not claim any true level of understanding about viruses, how they mutate, how they evolve and how they are ultimately brought under control. But I can read. And what I read is so vastly conflicting that I am beginning to lose patience with those who seek to impose their views on us, politicians and medics alike. And if I’m like that, you can bet your last pound so are others.

Just at a time when we are really needed to be on side with what others are striving to achieve during this mess, too many, myself included, are tiring of the conflict amongst those who profess to have the answers.
		
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Good points , but the important thing is not to lose sight of the facts.
As of this date , 90k infections last 24 hrs; 70odd in previous 24 hrs, 70 odd day before. One hundred odd deaths each of those days.
Now, as you say, of those , Omicron responsible for 25 k infections in total, and 10 deaths.
Clearly Delta is the villain here, and as it's been around so long, it must be because people are relaxing in their SD, meeting up indoors en masse, etc, because they are treating the virus with disdain, or because they need to ignore it to survive financially.
IMO we could have lived this way without too much an increase in hospitalisations ( which is draining the NHS), if the unvaxxed had taken the vaccines.- I'm talking about the refuseniks here.
Hence the drive for boosters which , to have those you need the first two- so is in reality a drive to convert the unvaxxed.
Because Omicron is an uncertainty, but it seems to transmit easily, this drive to vaccinate is important because we don't need Omicron to add to the Delta problem that has NOT gone away 
Let the figures tell you the truth, not the journos.


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## GaryK (Dec 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59489988

"In people who had received two doses of AZ, the study found a 30-fold rise in antibody levels after a Moderna booster, and a 25-fold rise after a Pfizer booster."

Mrs BiM & I changed our appointments to get a Moderna booster thanks to @Ethan who advised that the Moderna offered a slightly better response than the Pfizer for the booster. 

Click to expand...

I must have missed that stat - had I of known, then I think that I would have said no thanks to Pfizer and stuck with Moderna.
Maybe they were trying to use up the last of a Pfizer batch before it went out of date.
Anyway, it's done now and at least I have had my booster.


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## DRW (Dec 18, 2021)

GaryK said:



			I must have missed that stat - had I of known, then I think that I would have said no thanks to Pfizer and stuck with Moderna.
Maybe they were trying to use up the last of a Pfizer batch before it went out of date.
Anyway, it's done now and at least I have had my booster.
		
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I wouldn't worry as the trial in the lancet quoted by the bbc, clearly shows a FULL dose for moderna being used for the trial figures(100ug).

The government actually only boost you with a half dose(50ug), so chances are the pfizer and moderna results will probably be fairly similar as result.....


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## Ethan (Dec 18, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59489988

"In people who had received two doses of AZ, the study found a 30-fold rise in antibody levels after a Moderna booster, and a 25-fold rise after a Pfizer booster."

Mrs BiM & I changed our appointments to get a Moderna booster thanks to @Ethan who advised that the Moderna offered a slightly better response than the Pfizer for the booster. 

Click to expand...

I had 2 x Pfizer plus Moderna and I was happy to get it. People need not delay to get one or the other, take the first one offered.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 18, 2021)

GaryK said:



			Had my booster yesterday evening and all good so far - only a rather sore arm.

Strange thing though is that I had the 2 x AZ earlier in the year and last night they said that I would be having the Moderna  booster.
When I got to the front of the Moderna queue, a rather lovely nurse approached me and asked if I'd like to have Pfizer instead - I really wasn't bothered which one I had, but they did give me Pfizer in the end.
The nurse administering the job said that lots of people of asking for Pfizer and aren't happy when they are given Moderna.
		
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I went for my booster this morning. Everyone there was lovely apart from the snotty faced cow on the desk when I was checking in. I went through all of the questions that she had and then she said "Do you have any questions"? I said, "Yes, which vaccine will I be getting today"? Her response was "Why does that matter"? I said "It really doesn't but I was just interested in which one I was getting".

I got the Moderna and have a slightly sore arm this evening but that's it so far. Not sure if it's the paracetamol or the gin that is helping limit the side effects. Guess I'll find out in the morning.


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## larmen (Dec 18, 2021)

About 39 minutes ago Germany has declared the UK as virus variations territory. That’s 14 days enforces quarantine when travelling from Monday; another Xmas family visit cancelled.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 18, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm never going to say it's an overreaction, because I'm no expert... Just a guy with an opinion, but, I look at the ONS data for total deaths in UK from 1990 to 2020 and despite the pandemic, total deaths are only marginally up....despite total population being approximately 9 million larger.

This whole situation hasn't felt right or smelt right since day 1 to me.
		
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That could be right, but on the other hand, who knows what the outcome would have been had we allowed hospitals to be totally overwhelmed?

As it was, I don’t think there were many people that needed treatment and didn’t get it.


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## 4LEX (Dec 19, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm never going to say it's an overreaction, because I'm no expert... Just a guy with an opinion, but, I look at the ONS data for total deaths in UK from 1990 to 2020 and despite the pandemic, total deaths are only marginally up....despite total population being approximately 9 million larger.

This whole situation hasn't felt right or smelt right since day 1 to me.
		
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So the entire world and nations who are at the point of a proxy war against each other have agreed it's real and a serious threat. Yet someone like you with no idea on the issue have felt it was wrong and a load of lies. What compelling evidence we have before us


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## theoneandonly (Dec 19, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm never going to say it's an overreaction, because I'm no expert... Just a guy with an opinion, but, I look at the ONS data for total deaths in UK from 1990 to 2020 and despite the pandemic, total deaths are only marginally up....despite total population being approximately 9 million larger.

This whole situation hasn't felt right *or smelt right* since day 1 to me.
		
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Maybe you have Covid.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 19, 2021)

Feel like absolute crap this morning, not sure if thats the booster, the 3am alarm, or a combination of the two!


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## Foxholer (Dec 19, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm never going to say it's an overreaction, because I'm no expert... Just a guy with an opinion, but, I look at the ONS data for total deaths in UK from 1990 to 2020 and despite the pandemic, total deaths are only marginally up....despite total population being approximately 9 million larger.

This whole situation hasn't felt right or smelt right since day 1 to me.
		
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That's probably because the ability to save lives from 'normal' conditions/diseases has improved markedly in that period.
This doc https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/tran...mofinformationfoi/deathsintheukfrom1990to2020 demonstrates that pretty clearly. Death rates dropped from 1100/1400 (Crude/Age Standardised) in 1990 to 900/960 (ish) before Covid numbers from 2020 pushed that back up to 1016/1043.

Remember, it's important to look at the *right* data!

FWIW..Crude Rate makes no adjustment of age, so is a simple total of deaths; Age Standardised adjusts the numbers (I'm not sure how, but it's  calc as per a set of WHO rules) so that any year or country can be compared properly - crudely comparable to an adjustment for inflation in other stats.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 19, 2021)

Managed to book a booster last night for this afternoon. 

Supposed to be playing tomorrow, so hopefully it doesn’t affect me too much.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 19, 2021)

GaryK said:



			Had my booster yesterday evening and all good so far - only a rather sore arm.

Strange thing though is that I had the 2 x AZ earlier in the year and last night they said that I would be having the Moderna  booster.
When I got to the front of the Moderna queue, a rather lovely nurse approached me and asked if I'd like to have Pfizer instead - I really wasn't bothered which one I had, but they did give me Pfizer in the end.
The nurse administering the job said that lots of people of asking for Pfizer and aren't happy when they are given Moderna.
		
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Did she say why they were asking for Pfizer? Why unhappy with Moderna? I've not heard of that before so intrigued as to the thinking, if there is any.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 19, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did she say why they were asking for Pfizer? Why unhappy with Moderna? I've not heard of that before so intrigued as to the thinking, if there is any.
		
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There was anecdotal evidence doing the rounds in the Ladies section at golf regarding an adverse reaction to Moderna and suddenly they all wanted Pfizer...and even walked out un-boosted when Moderna was all that was on offer


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2021)

People should consider  that with Covid, there could have been a few times when, to use an analogy, the plane almost fell out of the sky, but was just saved by prompt action and/or good luck, and the pilot breezily said on the cabin tannoy 'Just a little bit or turbulence, folks. Should be plain sailing from now. Sit back and enjoy the flight', while actually sweating buckets and needing a new change of underwear.

I know from numerous reports on doctors social media that we almost hit such a moment in February when AZ vaccine supply fell perilously close to running out while vax was going like the clappers, and Pfizer had to be sourced urgently to cover the shortfall.

That is the context in which policy is sometimes made. Nobody thanks you if the bad thing doesn't happen and they don't know that it was close to happening.


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’m sure I’m not alone in having a rising sense of anger at how this is all playing out, and the fact that opinion amongst so-called experts is so divided that us mere mortals have no hope whatsoever of knowing whether we’re staring into an abyss or if this is all being blown ridiculously out of proportion.

*I’m quite sure Neil Ferguson’s views are now treated with suspicion by many,* but even he seems to be getting confused if recent reports of his comments are accurate. Days ago he was, allegedly, saying that if we didn’t act fast we could be looking at 5000 deaths each day. *Now today, he says vaccines or previous infection are likely to mean most infected with Omicron won’t have anything more than a mild illness*. I absolutely accept this is media reporting and that his actual words need to be viewed in context, but those two statements are at opposite ends of the spectrum so how are the rest of us supposed to know what to believe?

And I wholeheartedly agree that the decision to impose future lockdowns cannot be guided by infections alone. Omicron infections have apparently tripled in the last 24 hours, whilst deaths WITH it *(note, not necessarily because of it - that old chestnut)* stand at seven. Just seven. Even allowing for a lag between infection and hospitalisation and death, something doesn’t stack up.

Virtually every report I am still seeing coming out of South Africa still suggests we have totally lost the plot. Yet the Welsh are so concerned that they are re-imposing stricter controls, including the closure of nightclubs. Yes, so concerned are the Welsh that they decided on 15 December to impose these measures. But not until 27 December. Excuse me? You’re either viewing this as a catastrophic situation or you’re not. What message does that decision send to anyone? It’s so wishy washy it’s laughable.

I will say for clarity, and before certain forumers leap down my throat and impose their expertise on me that I am but a mere pleb. I do not claim any true level of understanding about viruses, how they mutate, how they evolve and how they are ultimately brought under control. But I can read. And what I read is so vastly conflicting that I am beginning to lose patience with those who seek to impose their views on us, politicians and medics alike. And if I’m like that, you can bet your last pound so are others.

Just at a time when we are really needed to be on side with what others are striving to achieve during this mess, too many, myself included, are tiring of the conflict amongst those who profess to have the answers.
		
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I am sure Ferguson's views (well forecasts, really) are now treated with a lack of understanding of what they mean by many.

Changing forecasts based on changed assumptions is fine, and more politicians should do it rather than double down on their original view.

All data on Covid outcomes has been done the same way. It is quite unlikely that many people are dying with it rather than because of it, because the background death rate over any 28 day period is very low, even for older people. This is only a chestnut for deniers and sceptics. It is important to gather the data the same way so that trends can be observed.


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## Billysboots (Dec 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am sure Ferguson's views (well forecasts, really) are now treated with a lack of understanding of what they mean by many.

Changing forecasts based on changed assumptions is fine, and more politicians should do it rather than double down on their original view.

All data on Covid outcomes has been done the same way. It is quite unlikely that many people are dying with it rather than because of it, because the background death rate over any 28 day period is very low, even for older people. This is only a chestnut for deniers and sceptics. It is important to gather the data the same way so that trends can be observed.
		
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My point is that within two days, Ferguson’s reported _forecasts_ ranged from 5000 deaths per day to Omicron being no worse than a sniffle for the majority. Now I absolutely accept that it all depends on the context in which those comments were made, and how they are represented in the press/media, but how is that helpful?

Not everyone is blessed with your expertise, and I’m sure I’m not alone in having neither the time nor the inclination to read medical journals and published studies and data which appear online. I read the papers, watch the news, and listen to politicians and medical people (well, those allowed to speak publicly anyway), and in the main what I read, see and hear is so contradictory that the man and woman in the street have little hope of ever unraveling it all and getting to the bare truth.

I’m neither a denier nor a sceptic, not least because I have had Covid. I am merely a fella who, thanks largely to how the pandemic has been reported since Day One, no longer knows his Covid arse from his Covid elbow. And I’m sick of the confusion. It’s all around us - I see it here, I hear it at the golf club and in the pub.


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## road2ruin (Dec 19, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My point is that within two days, Ferguson’s reported _forecasts_ ranged from 5000 deaths per day to Omicron being no worse than a sniffle for the majority. Now I absolutely accept that it all depends on the context in which those comments were made, and how they are represented in the press/media, but how is that helpful?

Not everyone is blessed with your expertise, and I’m sure I’m not alone in having neither the time nor the inclination to read medical journals and published studies and data which appear online. I read the papers, watch the news, and listen to politicians and medical people (well, those allowed to speak publicly anyway), and in the main what I read, see and hear is so contradictory that the man and woman in the street have little hope of ever unraveling it all and getting to the bare truth.

I’m neither a denier nor a sceptic, not least because I have had Covid. I am merely a fella who, thanks largely to how the pandemic has been reported since Day One, no longer knows his Covid arse from his Covid elbow. And I’m sick of the confusion. It’s all around us - I see it here, I hear it at the golf club and in the pub.
		
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I think one of the issues is that Ferguson and his ilk have been given a public platform and for some have relished the opportunity to be in front of the media, it’s boosted their ego’s no end. Personally I feel that they shouldn’t have been given this opportunity, it should have all be fed back behind closed doors and decisions made and announcements made through the PM, Chris Whitty, Van Tam etc etc. Then we we wouldn’t get these massive scare stories that, after a while, the public get bored of as they never come true. I appreciate, as Ethan has pointed out, that they are what could happen however I think there is a general tiredness of hearing them amongst the public. If they were moderated and then publicly used then I think people would understand better and more likely to listen to. Remember, Ferguson is amongst those who were telling us how bad things were going to be whilst disappearing off during lockdown to sow his wild oats!!

Obviously easer said than done with regards keeping a lid on what the modellers are saying but I just think it should have been more contained.


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My point is that within two days, Ferguson’s reported _forecasts_ ranged from 5000 deaths per day to Omicron being no worse than a sniffle for the majority. Now I absolutely accept that it all depends on the context in which those comments were made, and how they are represented in the press/media, but how is that helpful?

Not everyone is blessed with your expertise, and I’m sure I’m not alone in having neither the time nor the inclination to read medical journals and published studies and data which appear online. I read the papers, watch the news, and listen to politicians and medical people (well, those allowed to speak publicly anyway), and in the main what I read, see and hear is so contradictory that the man and woman in the street have little hope of ever unraveling it all and getting to the bare truth.

I’m neither a denier nor a sceptic, not least because I have had Covid. I am merely a fella who, thanks largely to how the pandemic has been reported since Day One, no longer knows his Covid arse from his Covid elbow. And I’m sick of the confusion. It’s all around us - I see it here, I hear it at the golf club and in the pub.
		
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We need to be careful.  While it's is possible that the Omicron variant 'may' have lower mortality its 'curve' is probably 'flatter'. Consequently fewer may die but proportionately many more could be ill and not be able to work. Such an outcome would reduce the capacity across the workforce!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 19, 2021)

Well summed up by Daniel Hannan, that awful man writing in that awful paper owned by those awful people!!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ocial-economic-disaster-please-boris-dont-do/


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## Crazyface (Dec 19, 2021)

The wife "booked" our appointments for a booster ages ago, it's now due 21st Dec. Can she remember the times? Nope. Can she access the web to find out? Nope. Has she had any email or text to confirm? Nope. Have we just had words? .................


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## DanFST (Dec 19, 2021)

There are 10% less people in intensive care than this time last month.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 19, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My point is that within two days, Ferguson’s reported _forecasts_ ranged from 5000 deaths per day to Omicron being no worse than a sniffle for the majority. Now I absolutely accept that it all depends on the context in which those comments were made, and how they are represented in the press/media, but how is that helpful?

Not everyone is blessed with your expertise, and I’m sure I’m not alone in having neither the time nor the inclination to read medical journals and published studies and data which appear online. I read the papers, watch the news, and listen to politicians and medical people (well, those allowed to speak publicly anyway), and in the main what I read, see and hear is so contradictory that the man and woman in the street have little hope of ever unraveling  it all and getting to the bare truth

I’m neither a denier nor a sceptic, not least because I have had Covid. I am merely a fella who, thanks largely to how the pandemic has been reported since Day One, no longer knows his Covid arse from his Covid elbow. And I’m sick of the confusion. It’s all around us - I see it here, I hear it at the golf club and in the pub.
		
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I do see where you are coming from. The fact is, there are too many sources of so called "Official" information about this situation than is good for the Country.
Imagine if we had just the P.M briefing we have all seen on television, which would have been the case years ago. That, and the newspapers.
Now, everybody including me is able to impart their opinions , views, and facts to so many people, it's bound to become a 'mare  to sort the wheat from the chaff.
And that would be so if the motives were all honourable?
We seem to have fallen into the trap of too many official sources. Without intending to, yes, they can confuse.
E.g. This , from a local official website
"The number of people in hospital with COVID-19 is currently (xx).There is not enough data to be certain about the severity of the Omicron variant, but even if it is less severe than Delta, we expect to see more people needing hospital treatment due to the increased transmissibility of this variant leading to many more people potentially becoming infected."

This may or may not be completely true, but it does seem to be at odds with what the recent daily figures suggest ( accepting that they are correct).
I quote them in a recent post 23314, which shows that the present infections are overwhelmingly Delta variants, as are the deaths.
And , by extrapolation,as are the recent explosive increase in cases.

So, is the latest data pointing to  Omicron being less severe , or not.? Or don't know?

The figures suggest not. This  advice suggests it will be.  

I think the advice should go with the figures. We need to get a grip on infections from Delta, and Omicron both. 

A lot of confusion at the moment seems to be because some are saying it's all going to be a big Omicron problem, whilst others are saying "Nothing in this Omicron scare, so no need to do much"

The truth is Delta is having a right go at us, and most have forgotten about it.!
It doesn't matter what name it is. Just try not to get it or spread it.


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## Brads (Dec 19, 2021)

Spent the last 24 hours in bed thinking I might die after my booster yesterday


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			My point is that within two days, Ferguson’s reported _forecasts_ ranged from 5000 deaths per day to Omicron being no worse than a sniffle for the majority. Now I absolutely accept that it all depends on the context in which those comments were made, and how they are represented in the press/media, but how is that helpful?

Not everyone is blessed with your expertise, and I’m sure I’m not alone in having neither the time nor the inclination to read medical journals and published studies and data which appear online. I read the papers, watch the news, and listen to politicians and medical people (well, those allowed to speak publicly anyway), and in the main what I read, see and hear is so contradictory that the man and woman in the street have little hope of ever unraveling it all and getting to the bare truth.

I’m neither a denier nor a sceptic, not least because I have had Covid. I am merely a fella who, thanks largely to how the pandemic has been reported since Day One, no longer knows his Covid arse from his Covid elbow. And I’m sick of the confusion. It’s all around us - I see it here, I hear it at the golf club and in the pub.
		
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I have no particular brief for Ferguson and I prefer solid data to forecasts too. Ferguson probably does not generate the data on which the forecasts are based, so I guess what happened is that the data he was provided with justified a pessimistic assumption, but then as more data came ion, it changed. The problem is that data tends to change, although gets better with time. It often starts closer to one extreme on the optimistic-pessimistic spectrum, then shifts to the other end, but gradually centralises around the "true" answer with time. Probably best not to keep changing the model output in the early stages as the data bounces around looking for more accurate answers. 

The question of which data set is true/accurate and which is the proper basis for policy decisions is a trickier one. There is a principle in public health called the precautionary principle, which basically says that you should assume the worst as it is easier to course-correct from there than from assuming the best and having to scrabble to increase activities. So it is wise to have a margin for error and if you think there will be 1000 deaths, plan for 5000 instead. The effects of getting these things wrong tend to occur on an exponential scale.


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## SteveW86 (Dec 19, 2021)

Booster appointment at 2 this afternoon (booked it at 10pm last night), arrived at 1:45, back out the door a couple of minutes later. A very efficient process.

If the amount of empty pizza boxes around was anything to go by, the local dominos is doing very well!


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## D-S (Dec 19, 2021)

Over a million jabs in arms yesterday, good to see one element working well at least.


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## Billysboots (Dec 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I have no particular brief for Ferguson and I prefer solid data to forecasts too. Ferguson probably does not generate the data on which the forecasts are based, so I guess what happened is that the data he was provided with justified a pessimistic assumption, but then as more data came ion, it changed. The problem is that data tends to change, although gets better with time. It often starts closer to one extreme on the optimistic-pessimistic spectrum, then shifts to the other end, but gradually centralises around the "true" answer with time. Probably best not to keep changing the model output in the early stages as the data bounces around looking for more accurate answers.

The question of which data set is true/accurate and which is the proper basis for policy decisions is a trickier one. There is a principle in public health called the precautionary principle, which basically says that you should assume the worst as it is easier to course-correct from there than from assuming the best and having to scrabble to increase activities. So it is wise to have a margin for error and if you think there will be 1000 deaths, plan for 5000 instead. The effects of getting these things wrong tend to occur on an exponential scale.
		
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Thanks. Makes a lot of sense.


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## Old Skier (Dec 19, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Booster appointment at 2 this afternoon (booked it at 10pm last night), arrived at 1:45, back out the door a couple of minutes later. A very efficient process.

If the amount of empty pizza boxes around was anything to go by, the local dominos is doing very well!
		
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They are bringing them for those working at the centres FOC if it’s anything like up here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2021)

We must spend Christmas with my 91yr old MiL and my 64 yr old BiL.  As he has (what seems pending furher investigations) to be a serious chest infection and is suffering from serious long covid (at best) my MiL is effectively his carer. As a result we have decided to minimise non-essential contact and activity in lead up to Christmas Eve when we travel north.

So no church for me this morning; I pulled out of the choir for this afternoons carol service and we haven’t gone along…and Mrs SILH has cancelled her Christmas/New Year hair do.  Plus speaking with a neighbour we find out that all three households directly across the road from us each have someone covid positive.  Not good.


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## drdel (Dec 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We must spend Christmas with my 91yr old MiL and my 64 yr old BiL.  As he has (what seems pending furher investigations) to be a serious chest infection and is suffering from serious long covid (at best) my MiL is effectively his carer. As a result we have decided to minimise non-essential contact and activity in lead up to Christmas Eve when we travel north.

And so no church for me this morning; I pulled out of the choir for this afternoons carol service and we haven’t gone along…and Mrs SILH has cancelled her Christmas/New Year hair do.  Plus speaking with a neighbour we find out that all three neighbours directly across the road from us each have someone covid positive.  Not good.
		
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Surely you isolate as much as possible and can get the free LTD tests. Then both you and your wife can test yourselves immediately and daily: thereby mitigating the risks that you are carrying any virus.


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## GB72 (Dec 19, 2021)

Booster jab done , all plans postponed until Xmas Eve. About as sensible and protected as I can be now in the build up. Seeing same 6 people on Xmas Eve, Xmas day and boxing day then happy to lock myself away as long as is necessary if asked to do so.


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## GB72 (Dec 19, 2021)

drdel said:



			Just wondered if anyone's activities have been impacted.

I must admit that at the moment we're trying to get to the truth behind the headlines. Its a virus that's obviously easily transmitted and can be deadly for some groups. As yet we've not changed our behaviour other than less handshaking. Our Club has also sent out advice and installed hand cleansers but that's about it.

This time last year 2,182  had been admitted into ICU care and about 200 had died despite vaccination; in the 1st week of Feb there were 270 admitted to ICUs. Before Xmas, December 9 and December 15 there were 586 patients hospitalised by flu in England. 174 patients admitted to intensive care with flu, bringing the total in 2019 to 2,092.

It will be interesting to see that statistics for the current quarter and the difference caused by the Coronavirus strains.

What are you doing/planning to do different?
		
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Postponed one party and work Xmas lunch. Happy with that. Can give up a few things to avoid Xmas isolation


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2021)

drdel said:



			Surely you isolate as much as possible and can get the free LTD tests. Then both you and your wife can test yourselves immediately and daily: thereby mitigating the risks that you are carrying any virus.
		
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What we are going to do.  We have a couple of packs of LatFlow tests so OK on that front.

And my Mrs just heard from a close friend senior NHS lead nurse practitioner in London that the talk/expectation is for a two week lockdown from 28th December.  Two other friends in Belgium have told her that Netherlands is essentially in lockdown and Belgium is heading that way very quickly as a result of the Omicron virus.


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## Foxholer (Dec 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We must spend Christmas with my 91yr old MiL and my 64 yr old BiL.  As he has (what seems pending furher investigations) to be a serious chest infection and is suffering from serious long covid (at best) my MiL is effectively his carer. As a result we have decided to minimise non-essential contact and activity in lead up to Christmas Eve when we travel north.

So no church for me this morning; I pulled out of the choir for this afternoons carol service and we haven’t gone along…and Mrs SILH has cancelled her Christmas/New Year hair do.  Plus speaking with a neighbour we find out that all three households directly across the road from us each have someone covid positive.  Not good.
		
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That's a perilous situation for your MiL!! All 'dosed up' I hope, or as much as she can be. I wish your family all the best. Wise precautions btw!


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## Hobbit (Dec 19, 2021)

Covid passports come in at midnight tonight, through to the 15th January. The only place they won’t be required is in shops. Mandatory masks when outside your front door is currently before the courts for ratification. Some regions have applied for curfews and limiting the numbers inside bars and restaurants.

We have a couple of shopping trips to do + a (wedding anniversary) meal booked for Wednesday evening - restaurant only has an inside capacity of 12. We’ve pulled out of a big Christmas Day lunch, 30 club members attending, our next meal out being in a small restaurant on New Years Eve.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 19, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What we are going to do.  We have a couple of packs of LatFlow tests so OK on that front.

And my Mrs just heard from a close friend senior NHS lead nurse practitioner in London that the talk/expectation is for a two week lockdown from *28th December*.  Two other friends in Belgium have told her that Netherlands is essentially in lockdown and Belgium is heading that way very quickly as a result of the Omicron virus.
		
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It's my birthday on the 29th and I wonder when this flipping virus will be resolved enough to allow me to celebrate with a nice meal out


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## bobmac (Dec 19, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			It's my birthday on the 29th and I wonder when this flipping virus will be resolved enough to allow me to celebrate with a nice meal out 

Click to expand...

You could get fish and chips and eat them in the car


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You could get fish and chips and eat them in the car  

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I was going to reply 'in 2 years time' but your answer is much cheerier 😂


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2021)

One example of why uncertainties should be applied to Omicron is the observation that a higher proportion of Omicron infections are reinfections of people who had one of the previous variants. Also some evidence that people who had Delta previously get affected worse than those who had Beta. This could be because of some quirk in the immune response, or residual subclinical effects, or because it Delta infection was typically more recent than Beta, but either way if "recovered" Deltas get hit by Omicron, could increase the severity compared to previously uninfected people.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That's a perilous situation for your MiL!! All 'dosed up' I hope, or as much as she can be. I wish your family all the best. Wise precautions btw!
		
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Thankyou - and yes, they have both had their booster - though in case of BiL only last Monday - as have both of us (more than two weeks ago)


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## Foxholer (Dec 19, 2021)

Ethan said:



			One example of why uncertainties should be applied to Omicron is the observation that a higher proportion of Omicron infections are reinfections of people who had one of the previous variants....
		
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There's also the _possibility_ that their initial infection - and recovery - didn't make them change the way they interact with other folk - continuing to be non-masking being an obvious example.


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## Ethan (Dec 19, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			There's also the _possibility_ that their initial infection - and recovery - didn't make them change the way they interact with other folk - continuing to be non-masking being an obvious example.
		
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Yes, although reinfection after Delta appears to be several-fold higher than after Beta, and you might assume that post-infection complacency wouldn't differ between the two.


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## Slime (Dec 19, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			It's my birthday on the 29th and I wonder when this flipping virus will be resolved enough to allow me to celebrate with a nice meal out 

Click to expand...


AMANDA : DON'T READ THIS UNTIL THE 29th.




I know it's not the same as a meal out, but





Happy birthday.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 19, 2021)

Slime said:



			AMANDA : DON'T READ THIS UNTIL THE 29th.




I know it's not the same as a meal out, but





Happy birthday.
		
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Ahh thanks! Fact is I'd go for Afternoon Tea all day long BUT all the decent places around here close between Christmas and New Year!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 19, 2021)

bobmac said:



			You could get fish and chips and eat them in the car  

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Or a MickeyD. I've been told on here it's quite healthy.


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## Reemul (Dec 19, 2021)

One thing I am hearing from a lot of people is I have had it already so am safe and this leads to them disregarding any rules as they think they are invincible.

My brother in law tested positive today. They were coming for Xmas and live in our street. We find out today that this past week, he went to London to visit his daughter at Uni, went out twice this week in the evening to Bournemouth to parties as well. Like there is no problem. This now means him, his wife and 6 year old daughter are stuck in for Xmas, his eldest Daughter has moved in with her boyfriend this xmas to avoid his infection and his other 2 daughters both work in Pubs and could become risks to others though they are testing every day.

To add my brother (who I don't really see) also went to London last week with his Girlfriend and she came back positive on Monday, my parents were supposed to be going there for Xmas as we are having the in laws.

There just seems to be a lack of common sense going on. We decided last weekend to take it easy for the 2 weeks leading up to Xmas to ensure we could have a nice Xmas with family. The wife and I have had the booster 3 weeks ago, my eldest has had the Vaccine and my youngest had Covid a month ago. Sure it would be nice to go for a meal or the day out shopping but I would rather see those closest to me over Xmas.

There is a real divergence from those that take a few extra precautions and those that seem to be thinking bugger this all is well and take very few.

The press are as usual not helping, apparently we are looking at 10,000 hospitalisations a day and 6,000 deaths a week now. Even I am sceptical of the figures being bandied about and it's getting like Cry Wolf at some point regardless of how correct we are many just will not believe it.

This looks like it could lead to a real split with those that do and those that don't regardless of where the truth lies.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 19, 2021)

Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas. 

Click to expand...

Brilliant Hope its mild and you're both Ok Rich.
48 hours post booster and I still feel under the weather, although I've been doing some ridiculous hours at work the last few days and my body clock is all over the place so not sure how much is down to that. Arm still feels like its gone the distance with Mike Tyson though


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## chrisd (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas. 

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So sorry to see that, you both have our very best wishes


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 20, 2021)

Felt like I was getting better last night after 3 days bedbound, only to wake up feeling awful again. Like it has decided to have another go just to see how I react.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas. 

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Noooo. Hope it’s just asymptomatic and all goes well.


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## Rlburnside (Dec 20, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Booster jab done , all plans postponed until Xmas Eve. About as sensible and protected as I can be now in the build up. Seeing same 6 people on Xmas Eve, Xmas day and boxing day then happy to lock myself away as long as is necessary if asked to do so.
		
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That post made me feel a tad sad this morning saying you would happily lock yourself away as long as necessary if asked to do so. 

Probably just the way you phrased it. 

I’ve done the same as you and tried to be sensible in the run up to Xmas 

I think there will some form of a 2 week lockdown after Christmas hopefully no longer than that 🤞


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## Slime (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas. 

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Sorry to hear that, I hope you both recover quickly.


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## road2ruin (Dec 20, 2021)

Headed up to London with the family last night, did Hamley’s, Christmas lights in the West End and then a restaurant before back to the hotel for a Christmas film. Was very busy, you wouldn’t have really noticed the apparent lack of people however I suspect that area of London operates in more of a bubble. 

Mask wearing in the shops was close to 100%, was impressed with that. Back in the hotel it appears that Covid doesn’t exist in the Middle East as mask wearing is non existent.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

Slime said:



			Sorry to hear that, I hope you both recover quickly. 

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Thanks Slime, I’m fine and still returning negative lateral flow tests so it means I have the joy of being in our utterly soulless office on my own this morning. Mrs BiM is somewhat coldy but utterly peed off that Christmas Day with her mate and the godchildren is bollocksed. 😕


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Noooo. Hope it’s just asymptomatic and all goes well.
		
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Thanks Brian, she’s a bit coldy and I’m still testing negative 🤔


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So sorry to see that, you both have our very best wishes
		
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Thanks Chris, all the best to you and your better half 😉👍


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## Billysboots (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas. 

Click to expand...

Really sorry to hear that, Rich. Hope you and the good lady still manage the best Christmas you can.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Really sorry to hear that, Rich. Hope you and the good lady still manage the best Christmas you can.
		
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Thanks Bill, all the best to you & the family. 👍. And sorry about the flashbacks… 😳


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## GB72 (Dec 20, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			That post made me feel a tad sad this morning saying you would happily lock yourself away as long as necessary if asked to do so.

Probably just the way you phrased it.

I’ve done the same as you and tried to be sensible in the run up to Xmas

I think there will some form of a 2 week lockdown after Christmas hopefully no longer than that 🤞
		
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Yeah, just a bit of hyperbole in the wording. What I meant was, no objection to news years eve etc being cancelled and a lockdown running for a few weeks.


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## Jimaroid (Dec 20, 2021)

Two weeks to the day since the Pfizer booster (left arm) and I still feel as if I have a muscle strain in my left shoulder. It's affected mobility of my left arm slightly and causing disturbed sleep. Not a big deal but niggly enough to be annoying.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas. 

Click to expand...

Fingers crossed the PCR comes back negative (it does happen)


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Booster jab done , all plans postponed until Xmas Eve. About as sensible and protected as I can be now in the build up. Seeing same 6 people on Xmas Eve, Xmas day and boxing day then happy to lock myself away as long as is necessary if asked to do so.
		
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We had my aunt uncle, cousins, parents, and my sister round Saturday. (all LFT before we met) its the same people we meet with Xmas eve. I said to them this is a trail event / if anything happens at least we have met now and had some family time as opposed to last year when it was just me and my parents.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Thanks Slime, I’m fine and still returning negative lateral flow tests so it means I have the joy of being in our utterly soulless office on my own this morning. Mrs BiM is somewhat coldy but utterly peed off that Christmas Day with her mate and the godchildren is *bollocksed*. 😕
		
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Sweet god man, we had four days of purgatory over that word 😂😂😂😂
Hope Missis BIM gets well soon.


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2021)

This study from Imperial College suggests that Omicron is not much different in severity than Delta, but 5 x more transmissible.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2021)

How has COVID affected you 😳
grandsproggs went to there dads on Saturday he had felt rough for a few days and did a LFT Sunday morning. It’s positive. He has asked the kids mum/ daughter to sort out who is having them. It has kicked off big style. Bottom line they have to stay with him. But he don’t want them for 10 days. It has screwed up a lot of Christmas plans. I feel for the kids. Why did he not do a test before the kids turned up 🤬
Boxing day in-laws are going round to Missis Ts sisters for nibbles etc. well there not now, Niece has COVID. MIL is in bits. We have in laws at Tashyboys abode Christmas Day. 
My parents are at me brothers Christmas Day, well they were. His son has COVID so that’s now cancelled. Looks like they are coming here Christmas Day. Tashyboys house is gonna look like a bloody nursing home Christmas Day. 😳
Because we do not have the grandsproggs on Christmas Day now, Ave told me parents they can stay Boxing Day night. It looks like that could be Christmas day night as well. 
Simply having a wonderful Christmas time 😖
Roll on 2023.


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## Foxholer (Dec 20, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			...
I’ve done the same as you and tried to be sensible in the run up to Xmas

I think there will some form of a 2 week lockdown after Christmas hopefully no longer than that 🤞
		
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I agree. Hopefully it's only 2 weeks. I suspect it'll be more than that, though . Maybe initially 2 weeks, say, as that's a good way to determine public's acceptence.

From (pretty dodgy) memory, it's about this time (now, maybe a little earlier) that Christmas gatherings were canned last year. I/we have smilar gathering as then planned, so a repeat would be very disappointing.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2021)

Ethan said:



This study from Imperial College suggests that Omicron is not much different in severity than Delta, but 5 x more transmissible.
		
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My concern for the future is the virus has already mutated to be more infectious but not as deadly. If a virus comes along that is as infectious as Omicron and 5 x more deadly. Well it don’t bear thinking about ☹️
Have a safe Christmas and thanks for the advice and info over the last couple of years.


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## SatchFan (Dec 20, 2021)

Mrs Satch had her Moderna booster from a very nice soldier this morning so that's the full set for us including flu jabs. Absolutely no side effects. Also, being part of the shut up and get on with it brigade we are choosing to lock down and won't see anyone until the new year. So looking forward to it.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I agree. Hopefully it's only 2 weeks. I suspect it'll be more than that, though . Maybe initially 2 weeks, say, as that's a good way to determine public's acceptence.

From (pretty dodgy) memory, it's about this time (now, maybe a little earlier) that Christmas gatherings were canned last year. I/we have smilar gathering as then planned, so a repeat would be very disappointing.
		
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Listening to The deputy prime minister Ave a feeling it could be sooner ☹️


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## Imurg (Dec 20, 2021)

Well I've cancelled all work except 1 girl with a lesson tomorrow and a test Thursday..
Sitting in a car with teenagers, even with the windows open, doesn't fill me with oodles of confidence...and it's bloody cold.....


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2021)

SatchFan said:



			Mrs Satch had her Moderna booster from a very nice soldier this morning so that's the full set for us including flu jabs. Absolutely no side effects. Also, being part of the shut up and get on with it brigade we are choosing to lock down and won't see anyone until the new year. So looking forward to it.
		
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Soldiers can vaccinate twice as fast. They get two lines formed, one on either side of them and then jab away - left, right, left, right ....


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			How has COVID affected you 😳
grandsproggs went to there dads on Saturday he had felt rough for a few days and did a LFT Sunday morning. It’s positive. He has asked the kids mum/ daughter to sort out who is having them. It has kicked off big style. Bottom line they have to stay with him. But he don’t want them for 10 days. It has screwed up a lot of Christmas plans. I feel for the kids. Why did he not do a test before the kids turned up 🤬
Boxing day in-laws are going round to Missis Ts sisters for nibbles etc. well there not now, Niece has COVID. MIL is in bits. We have in laws at Tashyboys abode Christmas Day.
My parents are at me brothers Christmas Day, well they were. His son has COVID so that’s now cancelled. Looks like they are coming here Christmas Day. Tashyboys house is gonna look like a bloody nursing home Christmas Day. 😳
Because we do not have the grandsproggs on Christmas Day now, Ave told me parents they can stay Boxing Day night. It looks like that could be Christmas day night as well.
Simply having a wonderful Christmas time 😖
Roll on 2023.
		
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Families, you have to love them. Do you though?

Enjoy as best you can


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Fingers crossed the PCR comes back negative (it does happen)
		
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Thanks 👍. Both her sister and brother-in-law had positive LFT’s but negative PCR’s, however even if it does come back negative we will still probably not be going; her mate’s Mum, who must be at least in her mid 80’s with underlying health issues will be there, it just doesn’t seem the responsible thing to do if she’s had a positive test of any sort this close.  In some respects a positive PCR would be a better outcome, as strange as that may seem.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Sweet god man, we had four days of purgatory over that word 😂😂😂😂
Hope Missis BIM gets well soon.
		
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Thanks 👍


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Thanks 👍. Both her sister and brother-in-law had positive LFT’s but negative PCR’s, however even if it does come back negative we will still probably not be going; her mate’s Mum, who must be at least in her mid 80’s with underlying health issues will be there, it just doesn’t seem the responsible thing to do if she’s had a positive test of any sort this close.  In some respects a positive PCR would be a better outcome, as strange as that may seem.
		
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Yeah I get what you mean , got to do what's best for your family 

We have our eldests friends round ATM 

Windows open, masks on for adults all lft test so they can enjoy what they can whilst we try and reduce the risk


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## Foxholer (Dec 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			How has COVID affected you 😳
grandsproggs went to there dads on Saturday he had felt rough for a few days and did a LFT Sunday morning. It’s positive. He has asked the kids mum/ daughter to sort out who is having them. It has kicked off big style. Bottom line they have to stay with him. But he don’t want them for 10 days. It has screwed up a lot of Christmas plans. I feel for the kids. _Why did he not do a test before the kids turned up_ 🤬
Boxing day in-laws are going round to Missis Ts sisters for nibbles etc. well there not now, Niece has COVID. MIL is in bits. We have in laws at Tashyboys abode Christmas Day.
My parents are at me brothers Christmas Day, well they were. His son has COVID so that’s now cancelled. Looks like they are coming here Christmas Day. Tashyboys house is gonna look like a bloody nursing home Christmas Day. 😳
Because we do not have the grandsproggs on Christmas Day now, Ave told me parents they can stay Boxing Day night. It looks like that could be Christmas day night as well.
Simply having a wonderful Christmas time 😖
Roll on 2023.
		
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Lord Tyrion's reply is also the likely answer - to the bit in italics. Perhaps out of hope that it was just something else - as source of _his_ infection was probably unclear.
Looks like a trip for some more Barolo might be in order! Or opportunity for an alternative, just in case.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Lord Tyrion's reply is also the likely answer - to the bit in italics. Perhaps out of hope that it was just something else - as source of _his_ infection was probably unclear.
Looks like a trip for some more Barolo might be in order! Or opportunity for an alternative, just in case.

Click to expand...

Just spoke to me mum, me dad just, wants to come on Boxing Day As planned. Thats Good for them so good for us. Daughter has just rung us to say she had spoke to her ex to say she would like to speak to the kids, the kids dad would not let them as “ they would have to touch my phone” 🤬, she said “ not if it is hands free”. He rang back 10 minutes later and let them talk to her 😖.
Me mums had her gall bladder removal put back to end of January as I said it might be. That’s not cheered her up. Ave a feeling a lot of plans will change from day to day.
Mr Barolo is looking like he will have a few friends to accompany him Over Christmas 😁


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM has just returned a positive lateral flow test.  Merry bloody Christmas. 

Click to expand...

Hope your both get through it ok. On the positive side you can have a nice time together. How romantic.


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## SaintHacker (Dec 20, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Listening to The deputy prime minister Ave a feeling it could be sooner ☹️
		
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I dont care what the government say, this year the whole family will be taking tests xmas morning, and assuming everyone is clear we will be having a 'business meeting' at our house which will take the rest of the day and the evening.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I dont care what the government say, this year the whole family will be taking tests xmas morning, and assuming everyone is clear we will be having a 'business meeting' at our house which will take the rest of the day and the evening.
		
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I suspect that is the collective feeling of the nation which is why they wont even try to do something until after Christmas, very soon after mind. It would be a pointless exercise if people simply ignore it so I don't see them attempting it.


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## Imurg (Dec 20, 2021)

The Mrs works at Stoke Mandeville Hospital and, from 3pm today, they are opening a walk-in centre for staff and family members to get a 1st, 2nd or booster jab.
Taking the Boy down there in 20 minutes for his Boost..


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## Crazyface (Dec 20, 2021)

A lot of medically sick people (LOL) not wearing masks in Asda in Wythenshaw. Hovis crackers are bluddy hard to find !!!!!


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## SteveW86 (Dec 20, 2021)

24 hours after my booster (Pfizer) and only a slightly sore arm so far.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 20, 2021)

What happens if you already have guests from another household staying with you IF they introduce new restrictions on households not mixing indoors? For example, there's a suggestion that Step 2 restrictions will be introduced from around 27th/28th Dec, which includes no socialising indoors. If you have relatives staying over Xmas do you have to kick them out on 27th when the new restrictions come in even if they were planning to stay for New Year as well?


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## road2ruin (Dec 20, 2021)

Apparently three options are being consider, low/medium/high....

1. Urging the public to limit social mixing indoors, without legal enforcement

2. Mandating curbs on household mixing, the return of social distancing and forcing pubs and restaurants to close at 20:00 GMT

3. A return to full lockdown


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## GB72 (Dec 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			What happens if you already have guests from another household staying with you IF they introduce new restrictions on households not mixing indoors? For example, there's a suggestion that Step 2 restrictions will be introduced from around 27th/28th Dec, which includes no socialising indoors. If you have relatives staying over Xmas do you have to kick them out on 27th when the new restrictions come in even if they were planning to stay for New Year as well?
		
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Or just ignore them so as you are not socialising (not difficult with some of my relatives)


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			What happens if you already have guests from another household staying with you IF they introduce new restrictions on households not mixing indoors? For example, there's a suggestion that Step 2 restrictions will be introduced from around 27th/28th Dec, which includes no socialising indoors. If you have relatives staying over Xmas do you have to kick them out on 27th when the new restrictions come in even if they were planning to stay for New Year as well?
		
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If they are already there then you are already a household, m'lud. That would be how I read it anyway. You are already mixing after all.


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## road2ruin (Dec 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If they are already there then you are already a household, m'lud. That would be how I read it anyway. You are already mixing after all.
		
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I agree, that's how we're reading it anyway as we're down on the coast with my parents so that'll be our Christmas bubble which will finish on the 29th. We're then home to hunker down until the 31st when we start our New Years bubble....


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2021)

Trying to update our Covid passports on the day they become mandatory to enter bars and restaurants. Maybe should post in random irritations. Tried multiple times without joy.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Hope your both get through it ok. On the positive side you can have a nice time together. How romantic.
		
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Thanks Jeff 👍


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## Italian outcast (Dec 20, 2021)

Flying to Scotland tomorrow - tested this mornin - Omnicron free (and all other greek characters)


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I dont care what the government say, this year the whole family will be taking tests xmas morning, and assuming everyone is clear we will be having a 'business meeting' at our house which will take the rest of the day and the evening.
		
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With cheese 🧀 😋 I hope


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Trying to update our Covid passports on the day they become mandatory to enter bars and restaurants. Maybe should post in random irritations. Tried multiple times without joy.
		
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NHS one or the EU, I have found that after a hour or two my LFCs are updated on the NHS app..


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## Italian outcast (Dec 20, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Trying to update our Covid passports on the day they become mandatory to enter bars and restaurants. Maybe should post in random irritations. Tried multiple times without joy.
		
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Brian, I'm not sure what system you are using in Spain - but the French TousAntiCovid App is near idiot proof and works across Europe - i use it everytime I'm asked here in Italy
Although I was vaccinated in France it recognises QRs from any EU scheme 
Can that not work for you in Sunny Spain?


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## road2ruin (Dec 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently three options are being consider, low/medium/high....

1. Urging the public to limit social mixing indoors, without legal enforcement

2. Mandating curbs on household mixing, the return of social distancing and forcing pubs and restaurants to close at 20:00 GMT

3. A return to full lockdown
		
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Now being reported that it'll be option 2 from the 27th which is basically step 2 from last April however it'll be for a month rather than 2 weeks.


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			Brian, I'm not sure what system you are using in Spain - but the French TousAntiCovid App is near idiot proof and works across Europe - i use it everytime I'm asked here in Italy
Although I was vaccinated in France it recognises QRs from any EU scheme
Can that not work for you in Sunny Spain?
		
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There is an EU Covid passport link within the Spanish health app but it requires a digital signature that we can get from the town hall. I’ll persevere today but must resolve by tomorrow evening. Wedding anniversary on Wednesday, and supposed to be off out for a meal.

 As an aside, very concerned by a massive hike in numbers over the weekend after a very quiet few weeks. Methinks Omnicron has arrived…


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## Italian outcast (Dec 20, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			There is an EU Covid passport link within the Spanish health app but it requires _*a digital signature that we can get from the town hall*_. I’ll persevere today but must resolve by tomorrow evening. Wedding anniversary on Wednesday, and supposed to be off out for a meal.

As an aside, very concerned by a massive hike in numbers over the weekend after a very quiet few weeks. Methinks Omnicron has arrived…
		
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And I thought Italy was bureaucratic hell 

Yes numbers climbing here in Italy as well - but folk don't seem to concerned - not seeing (yet) any public pronouncements we saw recently from the French and German camps
What I do see is a generally greater amount of folk wearing masks outdoors than it seemed a few weeks ago


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## Ethan (Dec 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Now being reported that it'll be option 2 from the 27th which is basically step 2 from last April however it'll be for a month rather than 2 weeks.
		
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Putting an extra lock on the stable door, then? Not going to bother horse who is long gone. 

Reports that the test-positive rate is up 50%. That strongly suggests the rise in cases is NOT due to more testing, the opposite, in fact, likely missing a greater proportion of cases.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 20, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Apparently three options are being consider, low/medium/high....

1. Urging the public to limit social mixing indoors, without legal enforcement

2. Mandating curbs on household mixing, the return of social distancing and forcing pubs and restaurants to close at 20:00 GMT

3. A return to full lockdown
		
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All I say to that is good luck .

Before they had a lot of sticking to rules but with the rule breaking parties people are angry I don't see as many sticking this time around 

All that would happen is buissness punished as they legally can't open but people I'd bet would still meet inside... What's good for the goose and all that


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			Flying to Scotland tomorrow - tested this mornin - Omnicron free (and all other greek characters) 

Click to expand...

No issue with getting back to Italy from the UK? I know we are on the naughty list with quite a few countries. 

Enjoy your Christmas in Scotland,  assuming you are staying there 👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2021)

We know that there was an emergency COBRA meeting at 2pm.  We have since heard nothing and no briefing has been scheduled for tonight.  That does not feel good to me - though we learn that the meeting is ongoing; that the situation is extremely serious and being reviewed hourly.  So we keep on carrying on as before being cautious.  I sense a misalignment and mismatch of risk and mitigation.  Worrying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2021)

SaintHacker said:



			I dont care what the government say, this year the whole family will be taking tests xmas morning, and assuming everyone is clear we will be having a 'business meeting' at our house which will take the rest of the day and the evening.
		
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You’d be OK as Kay Burley was told this morning that cheese and drinkies in the garden are ok once the business of the day is done, as they would not be subject to ‘socialising’ restrictions 🤣🤔


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## Hobbit (Dec 20, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We know that there was an emergency COBRA meeting at 2pm.  We have since heard nothing and no briefing has been scheduled for tonight.  That does not feel good to me - though we learn that the meeting is ongoing; that the situation is extremely serious and being reviewed hourly.  So we keep on carrying on as before being cautious.  I sense a misalignment and mismatch of risk and mitigation.  Worrying.
		
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We know the right things to do on a personal level, and for some that includes not doing some things that are currently permitted. I’d suggest you measure your own risk aversion and act accordingly.


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## IanM (Dec 20, 2021)

Don't worry old chap,  whatever they do it will be reported as wrong....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We know the right things to do on a personal level, and for some that includes not doing some things that are currently permitted. I’d suggest you measure your own risk aversion and act accordingly.
		
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Exactly what we are doing.  And because we know that many don’t seem to be as inclined as we are to be extremely cautious or get vaccinated, this means that for the coming week we have pretty strict self-imposed limitations on what we do; who we meet, and where/how we meet them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 20, 2021)

IanM said:



			Don't worry old chap,  whatever they do it will be reported as wrong....
		
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I suspect the reporting will simply reflect the public’s response, which will be divided no matter what is done.


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## Imurg (Dec 20, 2021)

I find it a bit lame that COBRA stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room A


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I find it a bit lame that COBRA stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room A

Click to expand...

Oh, that's what they tell the public. It's real name is as cool as you would expect 😉.


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## Italian outcast (Dec 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No issue with getting back to Italy from the UK? I know we are on the naughty list with quite a few countries.

Enjoy your Christmas in Scotland,  assuming you are staying there 👍
		
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I don't think Italy will follow suit - but I'm a resident so hopefully I can get back  
Yes staying in Edinburgh to see my aged father - may get some golf in 

All my best wishes to you and yours
I played yesterday with a local Italian couple whose son & family were coming home here _per Natale_ - they live in Heddon-on-the wall
Apparently they find it difficult to understand their grand-daughters english


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I find it a bit lame that COBRA stands for Cabinet Office Briefing Room A

Click to expand...

I think you'll find it stands for Camenbert, Oloroso, Barolo, Rioja, Appenzeller...


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## Billysboots (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			I think you'll find it stands for Camenbert, Oloroso, Barolo, Rioja, Appenzeller...  

Click to expand...

Post Of The Week. And it’s only Monday.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 20, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			I don't think Italy will follow suit - but I'm a resident so hopefully I can get back  
Yes staying in Edinburgh to see my aged father - may get some golf in 

All my best wishes to you and yours
I played yesterday with a local Italian couple whose son & family were coming home here _per Natale_ - they live in Heddon-on-the wall
Apparently they find it difficult to understand their grand-daughters english  

Click to expand...

Heddon on the Wall is a nice Northumbrian village. In the Tyne valley, prettiest part of the county, old stone houses, right next to Close House 👍. I can understand why they would struggle with the accent though 😄

Where would you play around Edinburgh? I've played Braid Hills, a smashing council run course, and Swanston, by the dry ski slope to the south. Neither top rated but both very enjoyable. 

My wife went up to Edinburgh with my daughter last week. Much quieter than usual and nicer for it, the same applies to all popular cities imo. You can enjoy it without the tourists 😄.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 20, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Thanks 👍. Both her sister and brother-in-law had positive LFT’s but negative PCR’s, however even if it does come back negative we will still probably not be going; her mate’s Mum, who must be at least in her mid 80’s with underlying health issues will be there, *it just doesn’t seem the responsible thing to do* if she’s had a positive test of any sort this close.  In some respects a positive PCR would be a better outcome, as strange as that may seem.
		
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Her mate phoned to check on her this afternoon, & Mrs BiM said that we probably wouldn't be coming even if the PCR was negative because of her Mum & the risk involved.   Her mate was very grateful; she was obviously concerned about her Mum, but didn't want to upset us by asking us not to come.

Responsible thing done this evening; Premier Inn booking cancelled.


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## Italian outcast (Dec 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Heddon on the Wall is a nice Northumbrian village. In the Tyne valley, prettiest part of the county, old stone houses, right next to Close House 👍. I can understand why they would struggle with the accent though 😄

*Where would you play around Edinburgh?* I've played Braid Hills, a smashing council run course, and Swanston, by the dry ski slope to the south. Neither top rated but both very enjoyable.

My wife went up to Edinburgh with my daughter last week. Much quieter than usual and nicer for it, the same applies to all popular cities imo. You can enjoy it without the tourists 😄.
		
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## Italian outcast (Dec 20, 2021)

Oh - they did say how beautiful Heddon was - and I know that myself

I'm not sure where I could play - I've played Braid hills and will be staying nearby
Swanston I know - never played but its probably easier for me to play Liberton or Mortonhall (which again I've never played) - they are a tad closer and I won't have a car
I'll just see where I am on Wednesday night after which hopefully i can emerge from isolation

Its non-essential but I do have a spare set of clubs at my fathers home - plus access to all of my brothers ProV1xxxxx's


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## SocketRocket (Dec 20, 2021)

How long does it take the powers to make a decision on what measures need putting in place.  We still don't seem to know the actual effects of Omicron, how long does it take to understand how it affects people!

I'm normally pretty laid back about these things but I'm now feeling absolutely nauseous about the whole situation.


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## D-S (Dec 20, 2021)

Initial data from London, the epicentre of Omicron, looking ‘gently encouraging’ - see all the usual respected sources on Twitter who’ve been crunching the numbers.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How long does it take the powers to make a decision on what measures need putting in place.  We still don't seem to know the actual effects of Omicron, how long does it take to understand how it affects people!

I'm normally pretty laid back about these things but I'm now feeling absolutely nauseous about the whole situation.
		
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It's the" need putting into place "thing. So many think the need shouldn't affect Xmas !
I think it is thought that any restrictions affecting family meet ups will not be adhered to. So, make it unlawful to do so , and what will happen?
Even on here that sentiment has been expressed, I think.

Of course, it is easy to say something should be done , like KS says, but we don't hear him say what, do we?  -( just to add balance).

Personally, I'm going to act as if there were more of a lockdown, but I'm glad I don't have to tell the Country what to do.

As for Omicron effects. There is a longer timeline to assess data re deaths etc.
We know how many deaths so far, and so far, not the same rate as Delta it seems.  But those words....so far.... 😀


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## Old Skier (Dec 20, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			How long does it take the powers to make a decision on what measures need putting in place.  We still don't seem to know the actual effects of Omicron, how long does it take to understand how it affects people!

I'm normally pretty laid back about these things but I'm now feeling absolutely nauseous about the whole situation.
		
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Pretty strange in the north of Devon. Just been through several weeks of the highest rates in the country and now the infection rates are dropping like a stone.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 20, 2021)

Italian outcast said:



			And I thought Italy was bureaucratic hell 

Yes numbers climbing here in Italy as well - but folk don't seem to concerned - not seeing (yet) any public pronouncements we saw recently from the French and German camps
What I do see is a generally greater amount of folk wearing masks outdoors than it seemed a few weeks ago
		
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Spoke to my Italian friend yesterday, she said exactly the same. Everyone is wearing masks and don’t have a problem doing it. Hope alls well me man


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## drdel (Dec 20, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Pretty strange in the north of Devon. Just been through several weeks of the highest rates in the country and now the infection rates are dropping like a stone.
		
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N Devon is pretty low population so perhaps it reached a 'saturation ' point where those likely to be infected caught it so now there's few candidates/unvaccinated.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

drdel said:



			N Devon is pretty low population so perhaps it reached a 'saturation ' point where those likely to be infected caught it so now there's few candidates/unvaccinated.
		
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You get sub-populations like this, and there is always a degree of chance as to whether that place get infected or not. One superspreader who coughs in the newsagent while passing through the village can do it. These places also all tend to get the same variant as each other, so they get some localised version degree of herd immunity. In London, you are more likely to have a few different strains or sub-strains swilling around even in local areas.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 21, 2021)

D-S said:



			Initial data from London, the epicentre of Omicron, looking ‘gently encouraging’ - see all the usual respected sources on Twitter who’ve been crunching the numbers.
		
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I'm not always confident of the media reports, but hope this is true. Encouraging news coming out of S Africa too.

https://www.9news.com.au/world/omic...ociation/58c36efc-3035-473f-877d-7b91853dc06a


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

need_my_wedge said:



			I'm not always confident of the media reports, but hope this is true. Encouraging news coming out of S Africa too.

https://www.9news.com.au/world/omic...ociation/58c36efc-3035-473f-877d-7b91853dc06a

Click to expand...

Much too much emphasis is placed on the assertion that she was the first person to report Omicron. The head of the BMA, her UK equivalent, would not be the most authoritative source of data. 

A test positivity rate of 30% that suggests they are missing a lot of true cases. I think she should be a bit more circumspect in public. In the UK, the case positive rate is going up, so the true cases are rising faster than the reported rate. 

With the strong transmissibility of Omicron, I think we have a long way to go yet. Some estimates of the background R value, i.e. what it would be in a non-immune population, put it in measles territory, 15 or thereabouts.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Much too much emphasis is placed on the assertion that she was the first person to report Omicron. The head of the BMA, her UK equivalent, would not be the most authoritative source of data.

A test positivity rate of 30% that suggests they are missing a lot of true cases. I think she should be a bit more circumspect in public. In the UK, the case positive rate is going up, so the true cases are rising faster than the reported rate.

With the strong transmissibility of Omicron, I think we have a long way to go yet. Some estimates of the background R value, i.e. what it would be in a non-immune population, put it in measles territory, 15 or thereabouts.
		
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god forbid that could be seen as anything positive. Time to lock us down!


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Her mate phoned to check on her this afternoon, & Mrs BiM said that we probably wouldn't be coming even if the PCR was negative because of her Mum & the risk involved.   Her mate was very grateful; she was obviously concerned about her Mum, but didn't want to upset us by asking us not to come.

Responsible thing done this evening; Premier Inn booking cancelled.
		
Click to expand...

Hope you and Mrs Munich are both ok, Richard 🤞


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 21, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Hope you and Mrs Munich are both ok, Richard 🤞
		
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Thanks James, her PCR is done and we await the response, I meanwhile am still returning negative LFTs 🤔


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## road2ruin (Dec 21, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Thanks James, her PCR is done and we await the response, I meanwhile am still returning negative LFTs 🤔
		
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I wonder whether the new variant is managing to escape the LFT tests? I have a couple of friends who are presently isolating, they had 3-4 negative LFT's but a PCR came back as positive, same for both of them. The odd thing though is that despite both variants being highly transmittable only one person in each household as got it (4 in one household and 6 in another), they are 6 days in and you'd have thought the others would have got it as well!!


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder whether the new variant is managing to escape the LFT tests? I have a couple of friends who are presently isolating, they had 3-4 negative LFT's but a PCR came back as positive, same for both of them. The odd thing though is that despite both variants being highly transmittable only one person in each household as got it (4 in one household and 6 in another), they are 6 days in and you'd have thought the others would have got it as well!!
		
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We’ve had two separate occurrences of Covid in our household - me in April 2020 and my daughter this summer. On both occasions the other three in the house escaped unscathed despite us mixing at home.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder whether the new variant is managing to escape the LFT tests? I have a couple of friends who are presently isolating, they had 3-4 negative LFT's but a PCR came back as positive, same for both of them. The odd thing though is that despite both variants being highly transmittable only one person in each household as got it (4 in one household and 6 in another), they are 6 days in and you'd have thought the others would have got it as well!!
		
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Billysboots said:



			We’ve had two separate occurrences of Covid in our household - me in April 2020 and my daughter this summer. On both occasions the other three in the house escaped unscathed despite us mixing at home.
		
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It does seem strange how the infections happen. My younger son brought it home from school. He tested positive on the Monday with LFT and had it confirmed by PCR, and the other three of us were taking daily LFTs. I tested positive on the Saturday and Mrs Colch on the following Monday both confirmed with PCRs. My older son then had a positive LFT on the Weds, which was the strongest return out of all of us, yet tested negative on the PCR and has continued to test negative since then. 

The only thing we could think was that we weren't very strict on the two of us distancing from our younger son, it seems a bit unfair to do that to a 10 year old, but the older boy who is 12 naturally distances himself by spending a lot of time in his room chatting to mates on his PS4 so managed to avoid it.


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			It does seem strange how the infections happen. My younger son brought it home from school. He tested positive on the Monday with LFT and had it confirmed by PCR, and the other three of us were taking daily LFTs. I tested positive on the Saturday and Mrs Colch on the following Monday both confirmed with PCRs. My older son then had a positive LFT on the Weds, which was the strongest return out of all of us, yet tested negative on the PCR and has continued to test negative since then.

The only thing we could think was that we weren't very strict on the two of us distancing from our younger son, it seems a bit unfair to do that to a 10 year old, but the older boy who is 12 naturally distances himself by spending a lot of time in his room chatting to mates on his PS4 so managed to avoid it.
		
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The fact that my wife didn’t catch it from me gave me ample reason to persuade her that we clearly weren’t spending enough “quality time” together. Make of that what you will 😉😂


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			god forbid that could be seen as anything positive. Time to lock us down!
		
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Paul - you really should try a bit harder to come up with something original, or failing that, at least considered. Even you must understand the basic principles that it is wise to apply caution to emerging events of unknown magnitude by now, and if you don't, I doubt you ever will. And I bet you would be among the first to get out your pitchfork and noose if they got it badly wrong in the other direction, though.


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## drdel (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Paul - you really should try a bit harder to come up with something original, or failing that, at least considered. Even you must understand the basic principles that it is wise to apply caution to emerging events of unknown magnitude by now, and if you don't, I doubt you ever will. And I bet you would be among the first to get out your pitchfork and noose if they got it badly wrong in the other direction, though.
		
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When anything affects my or any of my family's health I find the 'precautionary principles' works well. If you get it wrong at least you'll still be around to change you thinking


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## PNWokingham (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Paul - you really should try a bit harder to come up with something original, or failing that, at least considered. Even you must understand the basic principles that it is wise to apply caution to emerging events of unknown magnitude by now, and if you don't, I doubt you ever will. And I bet you would be among the first to get out your pitchfork and noose if they got it badly wrong in the other direction, though.
		
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original? I was pointing out your completely one-sided snub of something that most people would see as hopeful and maybe even a decent positive from a country more advanced on the omicron wave than we are. Caution is fine but it needs facts to go along with spurious models and as far as i can see there is not enough negative evidence to condem us to a post-vaccine lockdown. That may change. The government clearly took the doomsday models seriosuly but balance of opinion came down on the side of needing much more proof between infections and hospitalisations and, further, between hospitalisations and deaths - the link of which is supposed to be severaly curtailed by vaccinations. And Sage said that infections were likely way higher than official stats. There is already a significant drop off in sales for the hospitality sector that has been whacked over the past 2 years (40% down in revenue since 2019). To see the data from South Africa was very encouraging but in no way conclusive of what may still happen there or here. Biden is similarly not expected to take any lockdown actions in hius speach today (if he can remember what he is supposed to say)! 

Weekly deaths with covid in the UK are now at a 2 month low (since w/e Oct 15) - and we have had omicron for at least a month or more. Again, encouraging. All in all - we have massive infections of a varient that could be less severe than Delta - nothing proven but encouraging signs from the country most advanced with this new varient - and that is not the same as looking back at what Alpha and delta did pre vaccine.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 21, 2021)

drdel said:



			When anything affects my or any of my family's health I find the 'precautionary principles' works well. If you get it wrong at least you'll still be around to change you thinking
		
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and most people are being cautious - and everyone is free to do so - it doesn't mean we take the jump to legally enforced lockdowns and only focus on all the nagatives of models from people that have been proven to be vastly wrong in the past and which everyone i have heard believe are extremely unlikely now


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2021)

Just speaking to next door neighbour as she came home from shift at GW Hospital on Swindon. 

93% of those in Intensive Care there with covid, are unvaxinated.   Most will survive but not all will. (She didn't say the mix of new variant and old) 

Draw from that what you will.


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## JamesR (Dec 21, 2021)

IanM said:



			Just speaking to next door neighbour as she came home from shift at GW Hospital on Swindon.

93% of those in Intensive Care there with covid, are unvaxinated.   Most will survive but not all will. (She didn't say the mix of new variant and old)

*Draw from that what you will.*

Click to expand...

Covid has taken over from smoking, as the main cause of statistics!


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			original? I was pointing out your completely one-sided snub of something that most people would see as hopeful and maybe even a decent positive from a country more advanced on the omicron wave than we are. Caution is fine but it needs facts to go along with spurious models and as far as i can see there is not enough negative evidence to condem us to a post-vaccine lockdown. That may change. The government clearly took the doomsday models seriosuly but balance of opinion came down on the side of needing much more proof between infections and hospitalisations and, further, between hospitalisations and deaths - the link of which is supposed to be severaly curtailed by vaccinations. And Sage said that infections were likely way higher than official stats. There is already a significant drop off in sales for the hospitality sector that has been whacked over the past 2 years (40% down in revenue since 2019). To see the data from South Africa was very encouraging but in no way conclusive of what may still happen there or here. Biden is similarly not expected to take any lockdown actions in hius speach today (if he can remember what he is supposed to say)!

Weekly deaths with covid in the UK are now at a 2 month low (since w/e Oct 15) - and we have had omicron for at least a month or more. Again, encouraging. All in all - we have massive infections of a varient that could be less severe than Delta - nothing proven but encouraging signs from the country most advanced with this new varient - and that is not the same as looking back at what Alpha and delta did pre vaccine.
		
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Your post is littered with hyperbolic stuff like 'spurious models', 'condemn us' 'doomsday models'. That does not suggest a fair-minded consideration of any of this stuff. As others have said before, South Africa is not a great model. I seem to remember many here, possibly including you, disparaging international comparisons when it came to case rates, perhaps that has changed now that the narrative works better. 

The problem with forecasting is that the effects of getting it slightly wrong on the optimistic side and slightly wrong on the pessimistic side do not result in the same number of fewer or more cases respectively. Losing control can mean that cases and control of the issue runs away from you fast. That is basically why the precautionary principle exists, because the uncertainties have to be built in as a pessimistic reserve. It is much harder to put the pandemic back in the box than to contain it better to start with. 

I fail to see why people are up in arms right now. You are asked to wear a mask in the supermarket. Big deal. If that upsets anybody's sense of liberty, they need to catch a grip and wise up. Otherwise, you can go to the pub, eat out, go to the gym, play sport and pretty much do whatever you like.

Don't blame Chris Whitty for the effects on hospitality, blame John Redwood and Steve Baker. They, and people like them, stopped a more robust and faster response previously which would have reduced the adverse effect on hospitality. The 1919 Spanish flu showed that places that imposed controls fastest and strongest were able to lift them sooner and let their economies recover. And it may have saved a few lives and lungs too.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Your post is littered with hyperbolic stuff like 'spurious models', 'condemn us' 'doomsday models'. That does not suggest a fair-minded consideration of any of this stuff. As others have said before, South Africa is not a great model. I seem to remember many here, possibly including you, disparaging international comparisons when it came to case rates, perhaps that has changed now that the narrative works better.

The problem with forecasting is that the effects of getting it slightly wrong on the optimistic side and slightly wrong on the pessimistic side do not result in the same number of fewer or more cases respectively. Losing control can mean that cases and control of the issue runs away from you fast. That is basically why the precautionary principle exists, because the uncertainties have to be built in as a pessimistic reserve. It is much harder to put the pandemic back in the box than to contain it better to start with.

I fail to see why people are up in arms right now. You are asked to wear a mask in the supermarket. Big deal. If that upsets anybody's sense of liberty, they need to catch a grip and wise up. Otherwise, you can go to the pub, eat out, go to the gym, play sport and pretty much do whatever you like.

Don't blame Chris Whitty for the effects on hospitality, blame John Redwood and Steve Baker. They, and people like them, stopped a more robust and faster response previously which would have reduced the adverse effect on hospitality. The 1919 Spanish flu showed that places that imposed controls fastest and strongest were able to lift them sooner and let their economies recover. And it may have saved a few lives and lungs too.
		
Click to expand...




Ethan said:



			Your post is littered with hyperbolic stuff like 'spurious models', 'condemn us' 'doomsday models'. That does not suggest a fair-minded consideration of any of this stuff. As others have said before, South Africa is not a great model. I seem to remember many here, possibly including you, disparaging international comparisons when it came to case rates, perhaps that has changed now that the narrative works better.

The problem with forecasting is that the effects of getting it slightly wrong on the optimistic side and slightly wrong on the pessimistic side do not result in the same number of fewer or more cases respectively. Losing control can mean that cases and control of the issue runs away from you fast. That is basically why the precautionary principle exists, because the uncertainties have to be built in as a pessimistic reserve. It is much harder to put the pandemic back in the box than to contain it better to start with.

I fail to see why people are up in arms right now. You are asked to wear a mask in the supermarket. Big deal. If that upsets anybody's sense of liberty, they need to catch a grip and wise up. Otherwise, you can go to the pub, eat out, go to the gym, play sport and pretty much do whatever you like.

Don't blame Chris Whitty for the effects on hospitality, blame John Redwood and Steve Baker. They, and people like them, stopped a more robust and faster response previously which would have reduced the adverse effect on hospitality. The 1919 Spanish flu showed that places that imposed controls fastest and strongest were able to lift them sooner and let their economies recover. And it may have saved a few lives and lungs too.
		
Click to expand...

no time for a big response here but want to emphasie the need for balance. You completely tried to quash any positivityy in the South African events. The vaccination rollout was supposed to give us the ability to cope with extra waves and there is far too little account taken of this in the extra-cautious rhetoric from certain media and scientists. Add to the vaccine rollout (and advanced booster jabs) all the lessons learn't from the first two waves and other drugs repurposed to help with treatments and new antiviral options. *Unless *there is much stronger evidence that this new varient is somethiong to be much more afraid of we need to continue to move towards living with seasonal covid and avoid compulsory restrictions. Be sensible, be cautious, especially if you have underlying conditions but time to carry on and live life in a balanced way. But be ready for change if it is needed by the evidence

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/new-covid-drug-answer-prayers/

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article...hairman-of-the-sage-covid-modelling-committee


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			no time for a big response here but want to emphasie the need for balance. You completely tried to quash any positivityy in the South African events. The vaccination rollout was supposed to give us the ability to cope with extra waves and there is far too little account taken of this in the extra-cautious rhetoric from certain media and scientists. Add to the vaccine rollout (and advanced booster jabs) all the lessons learn't from the first two waves and other drugs repurposed to help with treatments and new antiviral options. *Unless *there is much stronger evidence that this new varient is somethiong to be much more afraid of we need to continue to move towards living with seasonal covid and avoid compulsory restrictions. Be sensible, be cautious, especially if you have underlying conditions but time to carry on and live life in a balanced way. *But be ready for change if it is needed by the evidence*

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/new-covid-drug-answer-prayers/

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article...hairman-of-the-sage-covid-modelling-committee

Click to expand...

That is the problem. By the time you get the evidence, it is too late to respond. 

And as I said, this is not a symmetrically balanced question. The hazards of getting it wrong by being too optimistic are much greater than the hazards of getting it wrong on the pessimistic side. Balance is fine if you understand the margins and can accurately predict the effect of interventions. We can't. 

And did I miss the data showing that Covid is now a seasonal infection? It may become so in due course, but we are not there yet.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			That is the problem. By the time you get the evidence, it is too late to respond.

And as I said, this is not a symmetrically balanced question. The hazards of getting it wrong by being too optimistic are much greater than the hazards of getting it wrong on the pessimistic side. Balance is fine if you understand the margins and can accurately predict the effect of interventions. We can't.

And did I miss the data showing that Covid is now a seasonal infection? It may become so in due course, but we are not there yet.
		
Click to expand...

we do not have the money to stomach closing down on model assumptions that many believe completely one sided after the £400_bn hit we have already taken from Covid. And that is, likewise, not a symmetrical statement. We (UK and the rest of the world)are in a dire state with finances and the covid-induced global inflation that is rampaging and is going to give the world economy another substatntail kick in the aris over the coming couple of years.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Weekly deaths with covid in the UK are now at a 2 month low (since w/e Oct 15) - and we have had omicron for at least a month or more. Again, encouraging. All in all - we have massive infections of a varient that could be less severe than Delta - nothing proven but encouraging signs from the country most advanced with this new varient - and that is not the same as looking back at what Alpha and delta did pre vaccine.
		
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I'd be more inclined to believe it's the massive increase in the percentage that have had the booster that have reduced the deaths. From 67.9/6.4 (2 jabs/Booster) on 16 Oct to 70.5/42.3 on 19 Dec. Definitely encouraging whatever the reason though.

And I believe it's a case of 'diplomacy' by govt about what, if anything, more to do now and after Christmas (or even New Year). With all the media fuss about their own (possible) ignoring of rules, I think there's a belief that lockdowns now would be widely ignored/ineffective and certainly criticised by much of the hospitality industry (who have to obey). Completely different story post festive period though.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			we do not have the money to stomach closing down on model assumptions that many believe completely one sided after the £400_bn hit we have already taken from Covid. And that is, likewise, not a symmetrical statement. We (UK and the rest of the world)are in a dire state with finances and the covid-induced global inflation that is rampaging and is going to give the world economy another substatntail kick in the aris over the coming couple of years.
		
Click to expand...

It'll be much worse if we (and others) err on the 'it'll be ok/positive' side than the 'let's make sure it's sorted/negative' one!


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## D-S (Dec 21, 2021)

Interesting comments from the Cardiff manager today, saying fans can’t attend their Boxing Day match even though they would have had to produce vaccine passport or proof of negative test, however they will be thronging to the shops with no restrictions in the City Centre instead. Also, as it stands, their supporters can attend away matches (except for their nearest one Swansea City). 
I think we’re going to be back in anomaly time.


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			we do not have the money to stomach closing down on model assumptions that many believe completely one sided after the £400_bn hit we have already taken from Covid. And that is, likewise, not a symmetrical statement. We (UK and the rest of the world)are in a dire state with finances and the covid-induced global inflation that is rampaging and is going to give the world economy another substatntail kick in the aris over the coming couple of years.
		
Click to expand...

Don't forget the other hand grenade thrown into the UK economy.

I maintain that your view that this is a choice between public health measures and the economy is simplistic and wrong-headed. The economies will not recover until Covid is beaten. There is an inverse correlation between how well countries have tackled Covid and the economic effect on their economies. Countries that tackled the public health measures well have suffered less. This is a joint health and economic crisis, and they most be tackled together, not trading off one against the other.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

D-S said:



			Interesting comments from the Cardiff manager today, saying fans can’t attend their Boxing Day match even though they would have had to produce vaccine passport or proof of negative test, however they will be thronging to the shops with no restrictions in the City Centre instead. Also, as it stands, their supporters can attend away matches (except for their nearest one Swansea City).
I think we’re going to be back in anomaly time.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe it was *his* decision!
https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/c...ounty-affected-by-latest-government-decision/
Different laws/rules/approaches is to be expected from devolved governments!


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## IanM (Dec 21, 2021)

JamesR said:



			Covid has taken over from smoking, as the main cause of statistics!
		
Click to expand...



Freedom of choice isn't as healthy as I used to think then.....


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## Imurg (Dec 21, 2021)

Assuming the numbers given to Worldometers is broadly correct I've just done some maths.
The overall +ve rate is about 3% - 390.5m tests against 11.5m +ves
Todays rate, taking the number added to the number of tests ( around 1.5m) and the number of +ve cases being 90k, is just shy of 6%.
It could have been a particularly +ve heavy day but it shows the ratio of +ve tests could be on a steeper increase.


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## road2ruin (Dec 21, 2021)

Confirmed that there will definitely not be any measures implemented pre-Christmas. After Christmas, who knows.


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## Imurg (Dec 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Confirmed that there will definitely not be any measures implemented pre-Christmas. After Christmas, who knows.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest, with the amount of mixing and socialising that's going to happen between now and the 27th, I feel were going to be in for some seriously high numbers by next weekend.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Assuming the numbers given to Worldometers is broadly correct I've just done some maths.
The overall +ve rate is about 3% - 390.5m tests against 11.5m +ves
Todays rate, taking the number added to the number of tests ( around 1.5m) and the number of +ve cases being 90k, is just shy of 6%.
It could have been a particularly +ve heavy day but it shows the ratio of +ve tests could be on a steeper increase.
		
Click to expand...

Number of cases is not _directly_ relateable to number of tests! And 'overall average' is not a great stat - as it covers both Summer (low) and Winter (high) cases. Total tests makes no allowance for seasons.   
But certainly, number of cases is increasing dramatically, especially in the last few days - as can be seen by the 'Daily Cases' graph for UK.
Click on 'UK' from the Countries sheet, Page down (once on my Laptop) to show Daily Cases/Deaths links, Select Daily Cases to get the chart - and you'll also see what I mean about 'Summer' v 'Winter'!


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Assuming the numbers given to Worldometers is broadly correct I've just done some maths.
The overall +ve rate is about 3% - 390.5m tests against 11.5m +ves
Todays rate, taking the number added to the number of tests ( around 1.5m) and the number of +ve cases being 90k, is just shy of 6%.
It could have been a particularly +ve heavy day but it shows the ratio of +ve tests could be on a steeper increase.
		
Click to expand...

Last 7 days UK - 5.85% 
Previous 7 days UK - 4.55%

Data from: 
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/


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## Imurg (Dec 21, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Last 7 days UK - 5.85%
Previous 7 days UK - 4.55%

Data from:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Click to expand...

How are you feeling Chap..?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 21, 2021)

I suspect we will follow Scotland's model .. maybe as soon as them (from 27th) which whilst restrictions isn't lockdown


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## D-S (Dec 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe it was *his* decision!
https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/c...ounty-affected-by-latest-government-decision/
Different laws/rules/approaches is to be expected from devolved governments!
		
Click to expand...

Who said it was his decision?


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## fenwayrich (Dec 21, 2021)

The idea of monitoring it 'hour by hour' didn't last long!


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			How are you feeling Chap..?
		
Click to expand...

Worst flu is over, but left with a constant niggling headache and walking up the stairs feel like the equivalent of running 10k. Just rolling over and getting out of bed leaves me slightly out of breath. But getting there, I hope! 🤞🤞🤞


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			The idea of monitoring it 'hour by hour' didn't last long!
		
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But wasn’t Boris due to be briefed by Whitty and Vallance this afternoon? Maybe the announcement gives a clue as to what that briefing told him.


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## road2ruin (Dec 21, 2021)

Imurg said:



			To be honest, with the amount of mixing and socialising that's going to happen between now and the 27th, I feel were going to be in for some seriously high numbers by next weekend.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there is going to be any point in bringing in restrictions on the 27th/28th now anyway. If they really did want to stop the spread then the restrictions should have been brought in last weekend although that wouldn't have gone down well with the members of the party or the electorate. 

Once we've got the next week's festivities out of the way stopping people going out to the pub on the 3rd January for example seems a bit pointless!!


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Last 7 days UK - 5.85%
Previous 7 days UK - 4.55%

Data from:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

Click to expand...

Worldometer UK Cases indicates even larger increase! From 50k-ish cases to 90k-ish cases!
I note that the above link states 'might include more than 1 test per person'!
Trying to manufacture conclusions from 'unrelated' (or 'not directly relateable') data is fraught with the danger of wrong conclusions!


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

D-S said:



			Who said it was his decision?
		
Click to expand...

I think I slightly missed your point! 
Though proximity of fans in a stadium is much closer than deemed 'within danger boundary' in other areas/venues - like those eluded to by Cardiff Manager. Let's hope they are enforced properly at those venues too!


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## Fade and Die (Dec 21, 2021)

Has anyone seen or heard from the flu?

Asking for a friend


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## drdel (Dec 21, 2021)

The added complexity is that Parliament insists they have their say on any future change to the guidance. Given their reticence shown during the previous debate the PM/Cabinet may be between a rock and a hard place with changing scientific opinions versus MP's reluctance to be agile.


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## road2ruin (Dec 21, 2021)

drdel said:



			The added complexity is that Parliament insists they have their say on any future change to the guidance. Given their reticence shown during the previous debate the PM/Cabinet may be between a rock and a hard place with changing scientific opinions versus MP's reluctance to be agile.
		
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But restrictions will always go through as Labour have said they will support anything. Won’t go down well with the Conservatives who are against such measures but wouldn’t affect the result.


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2021)

drdel said:



			The added complexity is that Parliament insists they have their say on any future change to the guidance. Given their reticence shown during the previous debate the PM/Cabinet may be between a rock and a hard place with changing scientific opinions versus MP's reluctance to be agile.
		
Click to expand...

Trying my hardest not to talk politics, but given the grief Boris has had for his previous reluctance to act, I am reading what is going on at the moment as a positive. I actually think if Omicron was as bad as the press would have us believe we’d have restrictions by now.

I hope, for the first time in my life (according to the wife) I’m actually right about something.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			...
I hope, for the first time in my life (according to the wife) I’m actually right about something.
		
Click to expand...

That's all that matters!


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## Billysboots (Dec 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That's all that matters! 

Click to expand...

Got to happen at least once, surely?!


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2021)

drdel said:



			The added complexity is that Parliament insists they have their say on any future change to the guidance. Given their reticence shown during the previous debate the PM/Cabinet may be between a rock and a hard place with changing scientific opinions versus MP's reluctance to be agile.
		
Click to expand...

That sounds dangerously like democracy at work 🤔


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That sounds dangerously like democracy at work 🤔
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but maybe not for the right reasons.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 21, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Has anyone seen or heard from the flu?

Asking for a friend
		
Click to expand...

Been jabbed away


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps, but maybe not for the right reasons.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe not but the alternative is pretty unattractive. We can't pick and choose when we like it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

Up to 6pm last night there have been 56000 Omicron cases in total

In the last 24 hrs, there have been 90 ,000 cases of Covid.

This is not the first 90000 in 24 hrs of Covid that we have had.

I have not heard any mention of Delta for days.  Yet it is clearly Delta that is spreading rapidly. Omicron can spread rapidly , I know, but the fact is ,most infections are Delta.
So the reason for more positives is not the rapid onslaught of Omicron, but slackening of preventive measures by individuals thus allowing Delta to flourish.
The press emphasise as usual. ( Omicron this, Omicron that) What I am wondering is why the Powers do the same. .? 
Maybe to try to get people to  boost rather than behave?
Also,  expecting a take off of Omicron, knowing the futility of asking compliance of Xmas restrictions. And fearing an overtake of Delta after Xmas.

It must be a nightmare trying to get on top of winter Covid. It's known  where "the water "is but the Powers know" the horses aren't drinking"


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Up to 6pm last night there have been 56000 Omicron cases in total

In the last 24 hrs, there have been 90 ,000 cases of Covid.

This is not the first 90000 in 24 hrs of Covid that we have had.

I have not heard any mention of Delta for days.  *Yet it is clearly Delta that is spreading rapidly*. Omicron can spread rapidly , I know,* but the fact is ,most infections are Delta*.
So the reason for more positives is not the rapid onslaught of Omicron, but slackening of preventive measures by individuals thus allowing Delta to flourish.
The press emphasise as usual. ( Omicron this, Omicron that) What I am wondering is why the Powers do the same. .?
Maybe to try to get people to  boost rather than behave?
Also,  expecting a take off of Omicron, knowing the futility of asking compliance of Xmas restrictions. And fearing an overtake of Delta after Xmas.

It must be a nightmare trying to get on top of winter Covid. It's known  where "the water "is but the Powers know" the horses aren't drinking"
		
Click to expand...

Really? Any evidence for that?


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 21, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Trying my hardest not to talk politics, but given the grief Boris has had for his previous reluctance to act, I am reading what is going on at the moment as a positive. I actually think if Omicron was as bad as the press would have us believe we’d have restrictions by now.

I hope, for the first time in my life (according to the wife) *I’m actually right about something.*

Click to expand...




Billysboots said:



			Got to happen at least once, surely?!
		
Click to expand...

When you married her, obviously... 

Go on, tell her that, I dare ya.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Up to 6pm last night there have been 56000 Omicron cases in total

In the last 24 hrs, there have been 90 ,000 cases of Covid.

This is not the first 90000 in 24 hrs of Covid that we have had.

I have not heard any mention of Delta for days.  Yet it is clearly Delta that is spreading rapidly. Omicron can spread rapidly , I know, but the fact is ,most infections are Delta.
_So the reason for more positives is not the rapid onslaught of Omicron, but slackening of preventive measures by individuals thus allowing Delta to flourish._
The press emphasise as usual. ( Omicron this, Omicron that) What I am wondering is why the Powers do the same. .?
Maybe to try to get people to  boost rather than behave?
*Also,  expecting a take off of Omicron, knowing the futility of asking compliance of Xmas restrictions. And fearing an overtake of Delta after Xmas.*

It must be a nightmare trying to get on top of winter Covid. It's known  where "the water "is but the Powers know" the horses aren't drinking"
		
Click to expand...

Omicron appears to be particularly prevalent in London. 
Does it really matter which version is likely to be caught?
I don't really understand your reasoning re the bit in bold, considering the bit in italics!


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Really? Any evidence for that?
		
Click to expand...

Surely simple arithmetic - using the numbers posted, if correct, would indicate that!
As per my, corrected, ones...Omicron now contributes over 50% of positive tests - and that percentages appears to be increasing.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 21, 2021)

How’s your day gone Tash.

Well make your own mind up.

Son came home from a 36 hour night/day shift staying out overnight delivering vaccines etc. Saturday and Sunday before going back to work he had LFT tests, all negative. Last night ( on the phone) he sounded rough. Today he skipped into the house telling Missis T he was going into Notts for Lunch with two pals. Missis T insisted he did a LFT. Me I disappeared into the garage to get me trolley to give it a good clean. I had cancelled golf today as Missis T has a big consultation at hospital tomorrow so I did not Fancy mixing. Lo and behold Sons test was massively positive. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Me and Missis T are negative but it has screwed up Christmas big style. No parents Boxing Day, no in-laws Xmas day. Daughters bogged off coz she cannot see her kids for 10 days and neither can we. Ave done shopping for me mum at Tesco today and she wanted to come along. Am fed up of telling her what’s out there.
For the second Christmas running son has brought COVID home for a pressie via his Job as a class  one lorry driver. If he had been on the beer with lads maybe I could let off steam.
I was not in the best of moods whilst in Tesco and seeing folk without masks was winding me up. There was a lovely lady on the door at Tesco giving out quality street sweets. Get your hand in here and grab one. 🤬🤬🤬
I bumped into an old pal from work “ Miner” that’s his nickname. He and his mIssis were on about how some of his friends quite frankly have had enough and doing what they want and basically have said “ Fork it”.
I bumped into me brother at Tesco. His son developed COVID 2 days ago. It’s has stopped me parents going to his Xmas day. His son and partner have decided to isolate together so me bro was doing all his shopping so he could cook for his partner Xmas day at his partners house. 🤬🤬🤬
Bottom line, I am majorly bogged off. Missis Ts dad has serious dementia and will not see another Christmas at anyones house. Ours would of been his last Christmas and the fickle hand of fate has said that’s not happening and yet some folk don’t give a toss.
On a positive me bloody trolley is clean. Just won’t see a course til 2022 😖


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Really? Any evidence for that?
		
Click to expand...

Coronavirus,data,co.uk  gives daily figures for Covid cases

UK Health security agency
Omicron Daily Overview for 21 December gives Omicron figures

Found by google


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			How’s your day gone Tash.

Well make your own mind up.

Son came home from a 36 hour night/day shift staying out overnight delivering vaccines etc. Saturday and Sunday before going back to work he had LFT tests, all negative. Last night ( on the phone) he sounded rough. Today he skipped into the house telling Missis T he was going into Notts for Lunch with two pals. Missis T insisted he did a LFT. Me I disappeared into the garage to get me trolley to give it a good clean. I had cancelled golf today as Missis T has a big consultation at hospital tomorrow so I did not Fancy mixing. Lo and behold Sons test was massively positive. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Me and Missis T are negative but it has screwed up Christmas big style. No parents Boxing Day, no in-laws Xmas day. Daughters bogged off coz she cannot see her kids for 10 days and neither can we. Ave done shopping for me mum at Tesco today and she wanted to come along. Am fed up of telling her what’s out there.
For the second Christmas running son has brought COVID home for a pressie via his Job as a class  one lorry driver. If he had been on the beer with lads maybe I could let off steam.
I was not in the best of moods whilst in Tesco and seeing folk without mask was winding me up. There was a lovely lady on the door at Tesco giving out quality street sweets. Get your hand in here and grab one. 🤬🤬🤬
I bumped into an old pal from work “ Miner” that’s his nickname. He and his mIssis were on about how some of his friends quite frankly have had enough and doing what they want and basically have said “ Fork it”. 
I bumped into me brother at Tesco. His son developed COVID 2 days ago. It’s has stopped me parents going to his Xmas day. His son and partner have decided to isolate together so me bro was doing all his shopping so he could cook for his partner Xmas day at his partners house. 🤬🤬🤬
Bottom line, I am majorly bogged off. Missis Ts dad has serious dementia and will not see another Christmas at anyones house. Ours would of been his last Christmas and the fickle hand of fate has said that’s not happening and yet some folk don’t give a toss.
On a positive me bloody trolley is clean. Just won’t see a course til 2022 😖
		
Click to expand...

Good lord, Tashy, the Fates are not being good to you, to put it mildly.
I really hope things get better for you and yours, best wishes to you.
From the son and grandson of a miner.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			How’s your day gone Tash.

Well make your own mind up.

Son came home from a 36 hour night/day shift staying out overnight delivering vaccines etc. Saturday and Sunday before going back to work he had LFT tests, all negative. Last night ( on the phone) he sounded rough. Today he skipped into the house telling Missis T he was going into Notts for Lunch with two pals. Missis T insisted he did a LFT. Me I disappeared into the garage to get me trolley to give it a good clean. I had cancelled golf today as Missis T has a big consultation at hospital tomorrow so I did not Fancy mixing. Lo and behold Sons test was massively positive. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
Me and Missis T are negative but it has screwed up Christmas big style. No parents Boxing Day, no in-laws Xmas day. Daughters bogged off coz she cannot see her kids for 10 days and neither can we. Ave done shopping for me mum at Tesco today and she wanted to come along. Am fed up of telling her what’s out there.
For the second Christmas running son has brought COVID home for a pressie via his Job as a class  one lorry driver. If he had been on the beer with lads maybe I could let off steam.
I was not in the best of moods whilst in Tesco and seeing folk without mask was winding me up. There was a lovely lady on the door at Tesco giving out quality street sweets. Get your hand in here and grab one. 🤬🤬🤬
I bumped into an old pal from work “ Miner” that’s his nickname. He and his mIssis were on about how some of his friends quite frankly have had enough and doing what they want and basically have said “ Fork it”.
I bumped into me brother at Tesco. His son developed COVID 2 days ago. It’s has stopped me parents going to his Xmas day. His son and partner have decided to isolate together so me bro was doing all his shopping so he could cook for his partner Xmas day at his partners house. 🤬🤬🤬
Bottom line, I am majorly bogged off. Missis Ts dad has serious dementia and will not see another Christmas at anyones house. Ours would of been his last Christmas and the fickle hand of fate has said that’s not happening and yet some folk don’t give a toss.
On a positive me bloody trolley is clean. Just won’t see a course til 2022 😖
		
Click to expand...

Time to open the Barolo!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Time to open the Barolo!
		
Click to expand...

Am sure sometimes in life one could write a flippin book. missis T has just been on the phone for the last 10 mins talking her dad out of the dementia fog. She is now internet shopting 😖
that Barolo is getting hammered Xmas day. 😁👍


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## Ethan (Dec 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Coronavirus,data,co.uk  gives daily figures for Covid cases

UK Health security agency
Omicron Daily Overview for 21 December gives Omicron figures

Found by google
		
Click to expand...

Well I wanted you to direct me to where google told you there was a majority of delta, because it is telling the rest of us something else, hence my question.

The Omicron daily update today shows 56,041 Omicron positive tests in England, which is very likely to be a considerable underestimate, out of 90,629 total positive tests.

My old 'O' level in maths tells me that even if all the non-Omicron were Delta (some 34,600), that is not a majority, aka most, for Delta.

Did you mean most clinically symptomatic cases, or most hospitalisations were Delta? If so, that is different, but I couldn't find that data.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well I wanted you to direct me to where google told you there was a majority of delta, because it is telling the rest of us something else, hence my question.

The Omicron daily update today shows 56,041 Omicron positive tests in England, which is very likely to be a considerable underestimate, out of 90,629 total positive tests.

My old 'O' level in maths tells me that even if all the non-Omicron were Delta (some 34,600), that is not a majority, aka most, for Delta.

Did you mean most clinically symptomatic cases, or most hospitalisations were Delta? If so, that is different, but I couldn't find that data.
		
Click to expand...

Ethan,
Isn't the 56041 the 'total to date' value!
The 'for day' value of 14791 is in the next column (Change from previous report).
https://assets.publishing.service.g...043098/20211221_OS_Daily_Omicron_Overview.pdf

Edit!
The 56041 is, indeed, the daily value! The 14791 value is change (increase) of previous day's numbers.
Doh!


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 21, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Am sure sometimes in life one could write a flippin book. missis T has just been on the phone for the last 10 mins talking her dad out of the dementia fog. She is now internet shopting 😖
that Barolo is getting hammered Xmas day. 😁👍
		
Click to expand...

Bloody Hell Tashy you've got more willpower than I'll ever have. If I'd had your day that Barolo would've been gone long by now let alone thinking it would still be there by Xmas Day. Keep your chin up.


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 21, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder whether the new variant is managing to escape the LFT tests? I have a couple of friends who are presently isolating, they had 3-4 negative LFT's but a PCR came back as positive, same for both of them. The odd thing though is that despite both variants being highly transmittable only one person in each household as got it (4 in one household and 6 in another), they are 6 days in and you'd have thought the others would have got it as well!!
		
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I was wondering this too. A couple of friends of mine have had a cough & sore throat, both testing negative with LFT’s but tested positive on PCR. Both are triple jabbed too. 

My wife works at the local hospital. Two of her colleagues partners tested positive, but her colleagues tested negative on LFT, only to test positive on PCR a week later. The annoying thing is that they were both working the whole week. Which means there’s a pretty good chance my wife is going to catch it, if she hasn’t already.


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## road2ruin (Dec 21, 2021)

Just switched on the radio to hear an interview with a scientist of some description (didn’t catch his name or what his background is) and his view was that it was the correct call to have held back on rushing into new restrictions. According to the data in England, as of late last week the daily cases has started to flatten and it maybe that we have peaked. The suggestion that the boosters plus the change in behaviour in the run up to Christmas was all having an affect. Interesting to see what happens over the Christmas period as people’s behaviour probably relaxes having managed to make it to the festive period (relatively) unscathed. Anyway, could be a bit of brighter news.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well I wanted you to direct me to where google told you there was a majority of delta, because it is telling the rest of us something else, hence my question.

The Omicron daily update today shows 56,041 Omicron positive tests in England, which is very likely to be a considerable underestimate, out of 90,629 total positive tests.

My old 'O' level in maths tells me that even if all the non-Omicron were Delta (some 34,600), that is not a majority, aka most, for Delta.

Did you mean most clinically symptomatic cases, or most hospitalisations were Delta? If so, that is different, but I couldn't find that data.
		
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Your maths is ok but you are applying it wrongly.😀

TOTAL Omicron infections to date, I.e all there have been in England since it arrived.  56000 odd

90000 Covid infections yesterday alone, and the day before, and 70000 the day before that etc.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Omicron appears to be particularly prevalent in London. 
Does it really matter which version is likely to be caught?
I don't really understand your reasoning re the bit in bold, considering the bit in italics!
		
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No, it doesn't matter which variant, ( the point I was trying to make,)
Re the bit in bold, maybe I didn't write it too clear. It was a continuation of speculating what the Powers might be thinking ( I.e not my thinking))
To clarify- Are they thinking that soon after Xmas. Omicron might really take over as the fastest infecting strain, so why not put the emphasis on Omicron now, it being newish, topical threat?  Seems to be what the Press want to talk about. Delta is old news😀

I am hoping that Omicron might not be as bad as it is presently portrayed. 
( note hope, not believe)
But in calling for the fight against it, "the new threat",  the boosters uptake will also deal with Delta😉

We shall see.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, it doesn't matter which variant, ( the point I was trying to make,)
Re the bit in bold, maybe I didn't write it too clear. It was *a continuation of speculating* what the Powers might be thinking ( I.e not my thinking))
To clarify- Are they thinking that soon after Xmas. Omicron might really take over as the fastest infecting strain, so why not put the emphasis on Omicron now, it being newish, topical threat?  Seems to be what the Press want to talk about. Delta is old news😀

*I am hoping* that Omicron might not be as bad as it is presently portrayed.
( note hope, not believe)
But in calling for the fight against it, "the new threat",  the boosters uptake will also deal with Delta😉

We shall see.
		
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Speculation indeed!
I trust you are preparing for it being worse!
Otherwise something of a waste of time and typing!


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 21, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Speculation indeed!
I trust you are preparing for it being worse!
Otherwise something of a waste of time and typing!
		
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Of course, glass half empty, that's me re Covid.  And you?

In final analysis, all our typings here  may be a waste. On the other hand, some of us may be entertained, and thankfully, some posts are enlightening.


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well I wanted you to direct me to where google told you there was a majority of delta, because it is telling the rest of us something else, hence my question.

The Omicron daily update today shows 56,041 Omicron positive tests in England, which is very likely to be a considerable underestimate, out of 90,629 total positive tests.

My old 'O' level in maths tells me that even if all the non-Omicron were Delta (some 34,600), that is not a majority, aka most, for Delta.

Did you mean most clinically symptomatic cases, or most hospitalisations were Delta? If so, that is different, but I couldn't find that data.
		
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Edit to my previous reply....And apologies for doubting you/your numbers!

Ethan,
Isn't the 56041 the 'total to date' value!
The 'for day' value of 14791 is in the next column (Change from previous report).
https://assets.publishing.service.g...043098/20211221_OS_Daily_Omicron_Overview.pdf

Edit!
The 56041 is, indeed, the daily value! The 14791 value is change cf previous day's numbers.
Doh!


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## Foxholer (Dec 21, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Your maths is ok but you are applying it wrongly.😀

TOTAL Omicron infections to date, I.e all there have been in England since it arrived.  56000 odd

90000 Covid infections yesterday alone, and the day before, and 70000 the day before that etc.
		
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No! Ethan's numbers were correct! My interpretation of the numbers was wrong!
And you either made the same mistake as me, or (foolishly) accepted my misinterpretation!
See my post above!


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			No! Ethan's numbers were correct! My interpretation of the numbers was wrong!
See my post above!
		
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Doh , indeed!    Apologies to Ethan and everyone . As the 56000 odd is daily, then ,yes his maths is right.

Misread it.


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## 4LEX (Dec 22, 2021)

LFT's are at best 50% accurate once symptoms surface. Too many people with Omicron symptoms are relying on LFT's as gospel rather than taking an extra 30 minutes and getting a PCR, I include my own family in that too. Which has made decisions very tough. It's clear people are turning a blind eye and ignoring symptons to enjoy Christmas. That's understandable to a degree as so many are boosted. The crap will hit the fan in mid January numbers wise though.


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## IainP (Dec 22, 2021)

4LEX said:



			LFT's are at best 50% accurate once symptoms surface. Too many people with Omicron symptoms are relying on LFT's as gospel rather than taking an extra 30 minutes and getting a PCR, I include my own family in that too. Which has made decisions very tough. It's clear people are turning a blind eye and ignoring symptons to enjoy Christmas. That's understandable to a degree as so many are boosted. The crap will hit the fan in mid January numbers wise though.
		
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As with many things since this all started it isn't always easy to be clear. Wonder if this may further confuse?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59749447


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## IainP (Dec 22, 2021)

Interesting following what is going on around the globe. The UK has maybe been a bit of an outlier recently with the volume of testing. The US with a change of tack ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59738678

Notable also that Trump was booed for mentioning he had received his booster 🤷‍♂️


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## road2ruin (Dec 22, 2021)

10 day isolation is now cut to 7 assuming no symptoms and negative LFT’s on days 6 & 7.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			10 day isolation is now cut to 7 assuming no symptoms and negative LFT’s on days 6 & 7.
		
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The key part tho Only if vaccinated ...otherwise 10 days 

Really subtly introducing obstacles for those without the vaccine ... It does work aswell..someone I work with (infact 2 of them) didn't want it but soon as it would stop their holidays ..... Bamn down they went 

Another one won't get the booster until he wants to travel again ..

So all these little bits do work 

We don't have to have the vaccine at work but they have (rightly imo) changed the policy so if you don't have it and have to isolate you only get 10 days sick pay then your on statutory .. if you can't have it due to medical reasons you are paid


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## road2ruin (Dec 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			The key part tho Only if vaccinated ...otherwise 10 days
		
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Nope, it’s regardless of vaccination status. The only time you are to complete the full 10 days is if you aren’t double jabbed and if you are a close contact of a positive case. If you are unvaxxed and tested positive you can get out after 7 days like anyone else.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Nope, it’s regardless of vaccination status. The only time you are to complete the full 10 days is if you aren’t double jabbed and if you are a close contact of a positive case. If you are unvaxxed and tested positive you can get out after 7 days like anyone else.
		
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ut-to-seven-days-for-jabbed-people-in-england

From Tuesday, new guidance will enable the 10-day self-isolation period for vaccinated people in England who have tested positive for coronavirus to be reduced by three days if they get the all-clear from lateral flow tests.

There is no change to the guidance for unvaccinated positive cases, or unvaccinated contacts of positive cases, who are still required to self-isolate for the 10 full days after their date of exposure to the virus.


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## road2ruin (Dec 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ut-to-seven-days-for-jabbed-people-in-england

From Tuesday, new guidance will enable the 10-day self-isolation period for vaccinated people in England who have tested positive for coronavirus to be reduced by three days if they get the all-clear from lateral flow tests.

There is no change to the guidance for unvaccinated positive cases, or unvaccinated contacts of positive cases, who are still required to self-isolate for the 10 full days after their date of exposure to the virus.
		
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I guess another example of the mixed messaging as the BBC completely contradicts that with their story…..

“The new guidance can be used by people who are isolating after testing positive for Covid, regardless of their vaccination status.

But those who are not double-jabbed will still have to isolate for the full 10 days if they are a close contact of a positive case, as is currently the case.”


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I guess another example of the mixed messaging as the BBC completely contradicts that with their story…..

“The new guidance can be used by people who are isolating after testing positive for Covid, regardless of their vaccination status.

But those who are not double-jabbed will still have to isolate for the full 10 days if they are a close contact of a positive case, as is currently the case.”
		
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Poor from the BBC, unless the guardian and "I" are printing it wrong but either way people need to print this 100% correct otherwise it's blooming pointless


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## Billysboots (Dec 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Another one won't get the booster until he wants to travel again ..
		
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I’m really struggling to see any logic in that whatsoever. That just sounds like someone being obstinate for the sake of it.

Given he’s had two doses already, what’s his rationale?


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’m really struggling to see any logic in that whatsoever. That just sounds like someone being obstinate for the sake of it.

Given he’s had two doses already, what’s his rationale?
		
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I just removed myself from the convo after that , there is no reasoning with people once their mind is made


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## bobmac (Dec 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I just removed myself from the convo after that , there is no reasoning with people once their mind is made
		
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## drdel (Dec 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Poor from the BBC, unless the guardian and "I" are printing it wrong but either way people need to print this 100% correct otherwise it's blooming pointless
		
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It is possible to find the facts on the gov.uk website!!!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 22, 2021)

Quote from the BBC

“It also applies to anyone currently in isolation, so people who tested positive or first showed symptoms on Friday last week could end their isolation in time for Christmas Day if they meet the conditions.”

My son showed symptoms over the weekend, LFT tests says negative on Saturday and Sunday. He did one yesterday and it was positive. PCR result has come through this morning and confirmed that. He now thinks that because he showed signs on Saturday he can test tomorrow and Friday and come out of isolation if two LFTs are clear. I think otherwise. If two tests on Saturday and Sunday show negative and you stand by them you never had coronavirus. So it started on Monday/Tuesday. But two tests on Thursday & Friday show the same ( negative) and because they suit one’s agenda. You come out of isolation.
Once more. The guidelines are as clear as mud and some folk will use this to suit there needs.
Personally I would of liked to have seen ” seven days isolation from testing positive”.

Thoughts me dears.


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## road2ruin (Dec 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			It is possible to find the facts on the gov.uk website!!!
		
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To be fair if you get your news from the BBC or Guardian etc you would assume that they are reporting the facts correctly especially when it's a pretty important rule!

Also, I've just been on the Government website and, unless I am being slow (which is a possibility), I could not see that it had been updated with this new isolation change.


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## DRW (Dec 22, 2021)

Prof Tim Colbourn on Twitter: "* COVID THREAD ON BEST WE CAN DO LONG TERM * Yes we’re in an acute crisis with Omicron and that needs dealing with, but it has actually made me want to think a lot about how this horrible pandemic ends, maybe you too? Let’s go through it… 1/35 (sorry, but this is troubling me)" / Twitter 

Well worth reading all 35 points this person makes.


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## DRW (Dec 22, 2021)

Had our christmas eve and day meal 2-3 weeks ago and New years eve a few days later, as wanted to bank it, after seeing the writing on the wall at the end of November with the new variant. Glad we did, with all the uncertainly around, as I have not really paid any attention to it 

It was a great time and the first time we had all meet indoors  since this all started...... we need to take more risk I think in 2022 

Hope everyone has a good christmas and Happy New year.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 22, 2021)

DRW said:



Prof Tim Colbourn on Twitter: "* COVID THREAD ON BEST WE CAN DO LONG TERM * Yes we’re in an acute crisis with Omicron and that needs dealing with, but it has actually made me want to think a lot about how this horrible pandemic ends, maybe you too? Let’s go through it… 1/35 (sorry, but this is troubling me)" / Twitter

Well worth reading all 35 points this person makes.
		
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Totally agree with these points and they sum up, obviously a lot more intelligently and eloquently, what i have been trying to say over past couple of days!


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## Old Skier (Dec 22, 2021)




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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2021)

drdel said:



			It is possible to find the facts on the gov.uk website!!!
		
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sorry but the gov website is a minefield. Im looking right now for the actual wording and im on my 3rd diff page to find out whats going on... and I keep up with things.. some people dont take an interest

so No. I expect the BBC or whoever to do the work and lay it out

tbh gov should make easy to follow screen shots to put on FB and twitter for everyone to pick up quickly. much like the simple politics page does.. simple to the point updates that stick to the facts.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 22, 2021)

I'm giving on what to believe now 🙄

https://dailysceptic.org/2021/12/22/no-the-nhs-is-not-being-overwhelmed-by-the-unvaccinated/?s=09


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			To be fair if you get your news from the BBC or Guardian etc you would assume that they are reporting the facts correctly especially when it's a pretty important rule!

Also, I've just been on the Government website and, unless I am being slow (which is a possibility), I could not see that it had been updated with this new isolation change.
		
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FWIW, New guidelines are in this document (updated today) https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-with-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			I'm giving on what to believe now 🙄

https://dailysceptic.org/2021/12/22/no-the-nhs-is-not-being-overwhelmed-by-the-unvaccinated/?s=09

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Notquite...some spurious text at end of link
Try  https://dailysceptic.org/2021/12/22/no-the-nhs-is-not-being-overwhelmed-by-the-unvaccinated/
I wouldn't believe much at all in that doc. There's a claim wrt Pirbright Institute that certainly seems false!


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			FWIW, New guidelines are in this document (updated today) https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-with-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection

Click to expand...

Read through that eventually, very long winded and finally come to the conclusion that it says nothing about vaccine status? Is that right. So makes the bbc report correct and guardian wrong 

However the page is long winded, majority of the country don't pay attention tbh .. they look to MSM to sum up for them .. idiot guides if you will


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Read through that eventually, very long winded and finally come to the conclusion that it says nothing about vaccine status? Is that right. So makes the bbc report correct and guardian wrong

However the page is long winded, majority of the country don't pay attention tbh .. they look to MSM to sum up for them .. idiot guides if you will
		
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Gov.UK docs are not renowned for 'clarity'! I've personal experience recently of 'getting it wrong' when using them as reference.
They ARE likely to have everything required. But, with so many variations/sets of circumstances, are likely to be long-winded and it can be difficult to find the truly applicable bits! That's where the news media (TV/Internet News, Papers etc) have a definite role to play - both broadcasting any policy/changes and interpreting them.


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## spongebob59 (Dec 22, 2021)

Some good news, possibly

BREAKING New #Omicron study in Scotland and it looks like good news. ‘Early national data suggests that Omicron is associated with a two-thirds reduction in the risk of COVID-19 hospitalisation when compared to Delta.’ Experts from Edinburgh & Strathclyde Uni.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 22, 2021)

My sister's mother in law has tested positive

They last went their Saturday .. she saw my eldest yesterday and my youngest been at my mum's this afternoon for couple hours

So fingers all crossed it never jumped to my sister although I'm unsure when the postive test was


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Some good news, possibly

BREAKING New #Omicron study in Scotland and it looks like good news. ‘Early national data suggests that Omicron is associated with a two-thirds reduction in the risk of COVID-19 hospitalisation when compared to Delta.’ Experts from Edinburgh & Strathclyde Uni.
		
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Paucity of sample (15 Omicron Hospitalisations, so only about 60 Total) makes conclusions pretty unreliable imo. Compare that sample to (UK) total cases today of 106k!
But it continues to suggest less 'dangerous'.


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’m really struggling to see any logic in that whatsoever. That just sounds like someone being obstinate for the sake of it.

Given he’s had two doses already, what’s his rationale?
		
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Possibly put off by reports of pain etc after booster jab. 
No noticeable difference from earlier jabs for me.


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## Billysboots (Dec 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Possibly put off by reports of pain etc after booster jab.
No noticeable difference from earlier jabs for me.
		
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Pain v potential for serious illness? Still seems totally lacking in logic.


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## Billysboots (Dec 22, 2021)

spongebob59 said:



			Some good news, possibly

BREAKING New #Omicron study in Scotland and it looks like good news. ‘Early national data suggests that Omicron is associated with a two-thirds reduction in the risk of COVID-19 hospitalisation when compared to Delta.’ Experts from Edinburgh & Strathclyde Uni.
		
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A very, very small study by all accounts. But seems to support what they have found in South Africa.

Maybe Boris is following the science after all in not announcing post-Christmas restrictions, rather than adopting the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish approach. 

Who knows?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59758784


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Possibly put off by reports of pain etc after booster jab.
*No noticeable difference from earlier jabs for me.*

Click to expand...

First AZ jab I was ill for 36 hours with a fever and flu type symptoms - so bad I didn't even want a brandy. 2nd AZ jab I had no reaction and didn't even have a sore arm. Moderna booster was sore arm and feeling a little bit blurgh for a couple of days but nowhere near like I felt for the 1st AZ.

The above is in no way a complaint or an argument against the vaccine, simply how I felt after them. I know some people that were far worse than me after their jabs and some who sailed through with no side effects at all.


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## GB72 (Dec 22, 2021)

Pfizer booster after az original jabs. A sore arm and a bit tired for 24 hours, that was it.


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## drdel (Dec 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			First AZ jab I was ill for 36 hours with a fever and flu type symptoms - so bad I didn't even want a brandy. 2nd AZ jab I had no reaction and didn't even have a sore arm. Moderna booster was sore arm and feeling a little bit blurgh for a couple of days but nowhere near like I felt for the 1st AZ.

The above is in no way a complaint or an argument against the vaccine, simply how I felt after them. I know some people that were far worse than me after their jabs and some who sailed through with no side effects at all.
		
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I didn't have any reaction at all to any of my 3 jabs but I'm an old git so perhaps I'm already dead


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 22, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Pfizer booster after az original jabs. A sore arm and a bit tired for 24 hours, that was it.
		
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Yep that’s what I had


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

GB72 said:



			Pfizer booster after az original jabs. A sore arm and a bit tired for 24 hours, that was it.
		
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Same here, though arm was not so much 'sore' as 'noticeable - and only around jab area'.


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## Ethan (Dec 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Notquite...some spurious text at end of link
Try  https://dailysceptic.org/2021/12/22/no-the-nhs-is-not-being-overwhelmed-by-the-unvaccinated/
I wouldn't believe much at all in that doc. There's a claim wrt Pirbright Institute that certainly seems false!
		
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The Daily Sceptic? Toby Young and insightful comment go together like beer guts and white belts.


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## D-S (Dec 22, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Same here, though arm was not so much 'sore' as 'noticeable - and only around jab area'.
		
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This is exactly the same as my wife and I as well as everyone else we know. The only bigger side effects I have heard of are from people on here - certainly a non-issue with people st the golf club.


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## ADB (Dec 22, 2021)

Son just tested positive, just phoned in laws to say another Christmas Day they have to spend alone - I’ve had better days


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## Hobbit (Dec 22, 2021)

Masks will be mandatory from Friday a.m. in Spain.


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## Captainron (Dec 22, 2021)

My mom back in South Africa tested positive today. She’s 70 and not in showroom condition. Smoked most of her life and is pretty social so enjoys a few beers with her mates. But she isn’t overly worried about it in this version. 

She can’t understand why Europe and the UK in particular (3 of her kids are over here) are going nuts over this variant.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 22, 2021)

Captainron said:



			My mom back in South Africa tested positive today. She’s 70 and not in showroom condition. Smoked most of her life and is pretty social so enjoys a few beers with her mates. But she isn’t overly worried about it in this version.

She can’t understand why Europe and the UK in particular (3 of her kids are over here) are going nuts over this variant.
		
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Fingers crossed it's only mild for her. Can she be sure that she's got Omicron? All well and good to say that it's (possibly/probably) less deadly than Delta but there's still an awful lot of Delta going around that people are still catching.


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## Captainron (Dec 22, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Fingers crossed it's only mild for her. Can she be sure that she's got Omicron? All well and good to say that it's (possibly/probably) less deadly than Delta but there's still an awful lot of Delta going around that people are still catching.
		
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Omicron but if it was Delta it wouldn’t matter. She’s well old and had a decent life. If it all goes wrong and she pops it then it’s just tough luck.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 22, 2021)

ADB said:



			Son just tested positive, just phoned in laws to say another Christmas Day they have to spend alone - I’ve had better days
		
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yup been there and it’s crap. Thoughts me man.


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## D-S (Dec 22, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Masks will be mandatory from Friday a.m. in Spain.
		
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Even on the golf course?


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## D-S (Dec 22, 2021)

An interesting and useful summary re studies on Omicron strength -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473772679425581069


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## Foxholer (Dec 22, 2021)

D-S said:



			Even on the golf course?
		
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Appropriate for bandits!


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 23, 2021)

I’m baffled. Last week I did 2 LFT tests showing positive, and I’ve been curled up in bed since Friday. Had a PCR test done which have now come back negative. 

Did another LFT test this morning which directly showed a strong positive. 

I thought false positives from tests would be the other way around, with PCR-tests being more sensitive and picking up in the virus even after you recovered.


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## Captainron (Dec 23, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			I’m baffled. Last week I did 2 LFT tests showing positive, and I’ve been curled up in bed since Friday. Had a PCR test done which have now come back negative.

Did another LFT test this morning which directly showed a strong positive.

I thought false positives from tests would be the other way around, with PCR-tests being more sensitive and picking up in the virus even after you recovered.
		
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Sure it wasn’t testing if you’re a muppet. That would come out strongly.


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## Slime (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			My mom back in South Africa tested positive today. *She’s 70 *and not in showroom condition. Smoked most of her life and is pretty social so enjoys a few beers with her mates. But she isn’t overly worried about it in this version.

She can’t understand why Europe and the UK in particular (3 of her kids are over here) are going nuts over this variant.
		
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Captainron said:



			Omicron but if it was Delta it wouldn’t matter. *She’s well old *and had a decent life. If it all goes wrong and she pops it then it’s just tough luck.
		
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You cheeky sod!
Oh, and you could at least pretend to care about your mum.


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Sure it wasn’t testing if you’re a muppet. That would come out strongly. 

Click to expand...

The test would explode.


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## Captainron (Dec 23, 2021)

Slime said:



			You cheeky sod!
................ and you could at least pretend to care.
		
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I do care about her and I don’t wish her to die but the fact remains that she is really getting on and it will happen. Absolutely no stopping that.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2021)

I think the modellers have been awful and also the people who have clearly directed their resarearch focus. We are not out-of-the woods clearly - but also becoming abundantly clear that the massively scary headline-grabbing predictions were totally one-sided and made no account of the completely different post-vaccine backdrop or the slew of anecdotal evidence on the disease severity 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ptic-omicron-claims-undermine-faith-vaccines/

*A selection of the content in case you cannot open:*

“It is bad science and I think they’re being irresponsible. They have a duty to reflect the true risks but this is just headline grabbing,” said Dr Clive Dix, former chairman of the UK Vaccine Task Force.

“To talk of 5,000 deaths a day is a very high number. It is risky to push apocalyptic scenarios that are highly unlikely to happen,” said Professor Francois Balloux, director of the UCL Genetics Institute.

“What I am more worried about is a loss of trust in governments and public institutions for crying wolf. The mood is changing everywhere."

A team at the University of Cape Town found that double-jabbed patients still had 70pc of the CD4 T cell response against the new variant, and full CD8 protection, despite the mutations.

“T cells are holding out against omicron, and the data is very consistent across vaccines,” they told the US magazine Science. “From everything we know about T cells, this is what they do - control a virus once you’ve been infected. So this is their time to shine.”

Dix said the political class in the UK - and more broadly in Europe - does not understand the difference between front-line antibodies and lasting cell memory, and is therefore succumbing to unnecessary alarmism. 

He assumes that Professor Chris Whitty and his close colleagues do understand but went along with Imperial’s claims as a tool of public policy, hoping to cajole more people into getting booster jabs. Anthony Fauci in the US is apparently thinking along the same lines. But it is a double-edged strategy. It risks a loss of faith in vaccines altogether.

Dix said it is inexplicable that the NHS is not publishing daily data giving the exact percentage of those in hospital with omicron by vaccine status, comorbidities, and whether they were admitted for Covid or for another reason. They should publish the numbers needing oxygen, and those going onto critical care, as other countries do. 

“It is not that difficult to put together the data. It would make a huge difference to public confidence,” he said.

Balloux said the sketchy clinical evidence from South Africa, Denmark, Australia, and London is that the case fatality rate of omicron for populations with broad immunity is 25 to 30 times lower than the earlier pre-vaccinated waves. 

There is a 90pc drop in hospitalisation rates, and a further two-thirds drop in death rates after admission. This takes it down to the levels of seasonal flu.


----------



## Ethan (Dec 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I think the modellers have been awful and also the people who have clearly directed their resarearch focus. We are not out-of-the woods clearly - but also becoming abundantly clear that the massively scary headline-grabbing predictions were totally one-sided and made no account of the completely different post-vaccine backdrop or the slew of anecdotal evidence on the disease severity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ptic-omicron-claims-undermine-faith-vaccines/

*A selection of the content in case you cannot open:*

“It is bad science and I think they’re being irresponsible. They have a duty to reflect the true risks but this is just headline grabbing,” said Dr Clive Dix, former chairman of the UK Vaccine Task Force.

“To talk of 5,000 deaths a day is a very high number. It is risky to push apocalyptic scenarios that are highly unlikely to happen,” said Professor Francois Balloux, director of the UCL Genetics Institute.

“What I am more worried about is a loss of trust in governments and public institutions for crying wolf. The mood is changing everywhere."

A team at the University of Cape Town found that double-jabbed patients still had 70pc of the CD4 T cell response against the new variant, and full CD8 protection, despite the mutations.

“T cells are holding out against omicron, and the data is very consistent across vaccines,” they told the US magazine Science. “From everything we know about T cells, this is what they do - control a virus once you’ve been infected. So this is their time to shine.”

Dix said the political class in the UK - and more broadly in Europe - does not understand the difference between front-line antibodies and lasting cell memory, and is therefore succumbing to unnecessary alarmism.

He assumes that Professor Chris Whitty and his close colleagues do understand but went along with Imperial’s claims as a tool of public policy, hoping to cajole more people into getting booster jabs. Anthony Fauci in the US is apparently thinking along the same lines. But it is a double-edged strategy. It risks a loss of faith in vaccines altogether.

Dix said it is inexplicable that the NHS is not publishing daily data giving the exact percentage of those in hospital with omicron by vaccine status, comorbidities, and whether they were admitted for Covid or for another reason. They should publish the numbers needing oxygen, and those going onto critical care, as other countries do.

“It is not that difficult to put together the data. It would make a huge difference to public confidence,” he said.

Balloux said the sketchy clinical evidence from South Africa, Denmark, Australia, and London is that the case fatality rate of omicron for populations with broad immunity is 25 to 30 times lower than the earlier pre-vaccinated waves.

There is a 90pc drop in hospitalisation rates, and a further two-thirds drop in death rates after admission. This takes it down to the levels of seasonal flu.
		
Click to expand...

It is very possibly the case that Omicron is significantly less pathogenic than Delta, at least in its short term effects. We all hope that it is. Nobody has a staked interest in proving that Omicron is nastier than it need be. Whether the longer term effects are proportionately less is also unknown. 

This rant from the Torygraph is also very one-sided, and in Balloux, for example, have deliberately chosen someone who has expressed scepticism a number of times, and been shown to be wrong. He does sometimes talk a load of that which his name sounds like. Anecdotal evidence really shouldn't drive policy decisions. 

But even this rant betrays its own contradiction. Are we to rely on evidence on T-cell effects obtained in what were likely to be in-vitro experiments? Interesting, sure, enough to abandon public health measures - easy for you to say. And saying "From everything we know about T-cells ...' also skins over the fact that there is a load we don't know that might be relevant to this issue.

And the obsession with having a go at the modellers. Modellers build a model and input assumptions based on available data (anecdotes don't count). If you disagree with their assumptions, give them better data. 

The political class do not understand a lot more than the difference between antibodies and immune memory, so it is a pity that they don't defer more to those that do. Chris Whitty is not captured by that class, but he walks a tightrope between being too outspoken and becoming alienated and being too tame and going native.


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			I think the modellers have been awful and also the people who have clearly directed their resarearch focus. We are not out-of-the woods clearly - but also becoming abundantly clear that the massively scary headline-grabbing predictions were totally one-sided and made no account of the completely different post-vaccine backdrop or the slew of anecdotal evidence on the disease severity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ptic-omicron-claims-undermine-faith-vaccines/

*A selection of the content in case you cannot open:*

“It is bad science and I think they’re being irresponsible. They have a duty to reflect the true risks but this is just headline grabbing,” said Dr Clive Dix, former chairman of the UK Vaccine Task Force.

“To talk of 5,000 deaths a day is a very high number. It is risky to push apocalyptic scenarios that are highly unlikely to happen,” said Professor Francois Balloux, director of the UCL Genetics Institute.

“What I am more worried about is a loss of trust in governments and public institutions for crying wolf. The mood is changing everywhere."

A team at the University of Cape Town found that double-jabbed patients still had 70pc of the CD4 T cell response against the new variant, and full CD8 protection, despite the mutations.

“T cells are holding out against omicron, and the data is very consistent across vaccines,” they told the US magazine Science. “From everything we know about T cells, this is what they do - control a virus once you’ve been infected. So this is their time to shine.”

Dix said the political class in the UK - and more broadly in Europe - does not understand the difference between front-line antibodies and lasting cell memory, and is therefore succumbing to unnecessary alarmism.

He assumes that Professor Chris Whitty and his close colleagues do understand but went along with Imperial’s claims as a tool of public policy, hoping to cajole more people into getting booster jabs. Anthony Fauci in the US is apparently thinking along the same lines. But it is a double-edged strategy. It risks a loss of faith in vaccines altogether.

*Dix said it is inexplicable that the NHS is not publishing daily data giving the exact percentage of those in hospital with omicron by vaccine status, comorbidities, and whether they were admitted for Covid or for another reason. They should publish the numbers needing oxygen, and those going onto critical care, as other countries do.*

“It is not that difficult to put together the data. It would make a huge difference to public confidence,” he said.

Balloux said the sketchy clinical evidence from South Africa, Denmark, Australia, and London is that the case fatality rate of omicron for populations with broad immunity is 25 to 30 times lower than the earlier pre-vaccinated waves.

There is a 90pc drop in hospitalisation rates, and a further two-thirds drop in death rates after admission. This takes it down to the levels of seasonal flu.
		
Click to expand...

I think most have wanted to see figures such as those referred to in bold since the first vaccines were rolled out, regardless of variant. Some clear, concise statistics, not dressed up in any way, clearly detailing the impact vaccines are having on reducing serious illness and death.

Figures simply quoting hospital admissions, those in ICU, those on ventilators and deaths, without providing context around vaccine status, are now rather meaningless. Unless, of course, they are regurgitated simply to prolong the panic.

And, yes, I accept the very data I would like to see is probably published somewhere, but I really don’t want to have to go hunting for it, only to then have to try and interpret it all first.

Simple figures. Surely, nearly two years in, the simple man and woman in the street should have these available to them.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is very possibly the case that Omicron is significantly less pathogenic than Delta, at least in its short term effects. We all hope that it is. Nobody has a staked interest in proving that Omicron is nastier than it need be. Whether the longer term effects are proportionately less is also unknown.

This rant from the Torygraph is also very one-sided, and in Balloux, for example, have deliberately chosen someone who has expressed scepticism a number of times, and been shown to be wrong. He does sometimes talk a load of that which his name sounds like. Anecdotal evidence really shouldn't drive policy decisions.

But even this rant betrays its own contradiction. Are we to rely on evidence on T-cell effects obtained in what were likely to be in-vitro experiments? Interesting, sure, enough to abandon public health measures - easy for you to say. And saying "From everything we know about T-cells ...' also skins over the fact that there is a load we don't know that might be relevant to this issue.

And the obsession with having a go at the modellers. Modellers build a model and input assumptions based on available data (anecdotes don't count). If you disagree with their assumptions, give them better data.

The political class do not understand a lot more than the difference between antibodies and immune memory, so it is a pity that they don't defer more to those that do. Chris Whitty is not captured by that class, but he walks a tightrope between being too outspoken and becoming alienated and being too tame and going native.
		
Click to expand...

You cannot resist the torygraph rant and slamming other professionals whose views you do not like. Time for a bit of balance! The models have been shown to be very wrong throughout the pandemic but nowhere near the scale or degree this time (at least i hope this is the case as the growing evidence is indicating) so time for them to broaden their assumptions and outcomes and then to be used as one-of not a dominant input into decision making. I just hope that common sense prevails and your "cautious" approach that would cost billions of pounds is not needed. Chris Whitty and the moddlers are always going to be on the caution/ panic side of the fence and politicians have to be much more balanced with the 99% of the rest of the health and economic issues and, thankfully, not just implement policy based on one type of imput from civil servants who seem drunk on power and publicity


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I think most have wanted to see figures such as those referred to in bold since the first vaccines were rolled out, regardless of variant. Some clear, concise statistics, not dressed up in any way, clearly detailing the impact vaccines are having on reducing serious illness and death.

Figures simply quoting hospital admissions, those in ICU, those on ventilators and deaths, without providing context around vaccine status, are now rather meaningless. Unless, of course, they are regurgitated simply to prolong the panic.

And, yes, I accept the very data I would like to see is probably published somewhere, but I really don’t want to have to go hunting for it, only to then have to try and interpret it all first.

Simple figures. Surely, nearly two years in, the simple man and woman in the street should have these available to them.
		
Click to expand...

totally agree - the stats are there and we need to see them


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			You cannot resist the torygraph rant and slamming other professionals whose views you do not like. Time for a bit of balance! The models have been shown to be very wrong throughout the pandemic but nowhere near the scale or degree this time (at least i hope this is the case as the growing evidence is indicating) so time for them to broaden their assumptions and outcomes and then to be used as one-of not a dominant input into decision making. I just hope that common sense prevails and your "cautious" approach that would cost billions of pounds is not needed. Chris Whitty and the moddlers are always going to be on the caution/ panic side of the fence and politicians have to be much more balanced with the 99% of the rest of the health and economic issues and, thankfully, not just implement policy based on one type of imput from civil servants who seem drunk on power and publicity
		
Click to expand...

I just want to pick up on one thing. The models haven't been proved to be wrong consistently. What's created that impression is the cherry picking of data by media and politicians who have an agenda to drive home. What's lamentable as a scientist is to see how papers and data are dragged into the debate and weaponised. 
So many people keep banging on about the MSM but yet still go to them as their primary source. The one thing that is consistent is that they will misrepresent to suit themselves.


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## DRW (Dec 23, 2021)

An interesting post/study here, about our children or grandchildren and protection :-

Shamez Ladhani on Twitter: "1/ A lot of questions about natural immunity following #SARSCoV2 infection in children After nearly 2 years, what have we learnt about kids, antibodies, cellular immunity, variants, reinfections and vaccines so far? Our 3 recent studies help answer many of these questions… 🧵" / Twitter


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## spongebob59 (Dec 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			totally agree - the stats are there and we need to see them
		
Click to expand...

I look at this for info :
https://data.spectator.co.uk/

Make your own mind up as to its relevance


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## backwoodsman (Dec 23, 2021)

Methinks this thread should either go back to its original purpose - how has coronavirus *affected me* - or be closed. The constant bickering is tiresome and the two sides are clearly never going to agree. (And yes, I  know I dont have to read it, but I do...)


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2021)

7 tests a day cancelled at out Test centre as one of the examiners had COVID...not a nice Xmas pressure for any of them....


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I think most have wanted to see figures such as those referred to in bold since the first vaccines were rolled out, regardless of variant. Some clear, concise statistics, not dressed up in any way, clearly detailing the impact vaccines are having on reducing serious illness and death.

Figures simply quoting hospital admissions, those in ICU, those on ventilators and deaths, without providing context around vaccine status, are now rather meaningless. Unless, of course, they are regurgitated simply to prolong the panic.

And, yes, I accept the very data I would like to see is probably published somewhere, but I really don’t want to have to go hunting for it, only to then have to try and interpret it all first.

Simple figures. Surely, nearly two years in, the simple man and woman in the street should have these available to them.
		
Click to expand...

I think the other thing it would be useful for people to see would be those going into hospital because of Covid and those going in with it. I was listening to an interview with someone in a hospital saying that a significant number are coming into hospital for a completely non-Covid related reason, they are tested and then found to be positive. They are then lumped into the 'Covid hospital admissions' which gives completely the wrong impression when looking at the numbers. I'm not suggesting that hospital admissions are and will continue to go up but maybe they're not as bad as being made out especially when Delta/Omicron are running riot but not actually resulting in direct hospitalisations.


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## arnieboy (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I do care about her and I don’t wish her to die but the fact remains that she is really getting on and it will happen. Absolutely no stopping that.
		
Click to expand...

Crikey,  I didn't realise that I was so close to being 'really old'.


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## DRW (Dec 23, 2021)

Here is a printout of the split of, hospital with and without covid btw :-

Data here :-

Primary-Diagnosis-Supplement-20211223.xlsx (live.com)


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			You cannot resist the torygraph rant and slamming other professionals whose views you do not like. Time for a bit of balance! The models have been shown to be very wrong throughout the pandemic but nowhere near the scale or degree this time (at least i hope this is the case as the growing evidence is indicating) so time for them to broaden their assumptions and outcomes and then to be used as one-of not a dominant input into decision making. I just hope that common sense prevails and your "cautious" approach that would cost billions of pounds is not needed. Chris Whitty and the moddlers are always going to be on the caution/ panic side of the fence and politicians have to be much more balanced with the 99% of the rest of the health and economic issues and, thankfully, not just implement policy based on one type of imput from civil servants who seem drunk on power and publicity
		
Click to expand...

Oh grow up. Balance - hahahahahaha. The last thing that piece of drivel brings is balance.

It is perfectly right and proper for me to comment on other opinions and the people that make them. If Pfizer did a piece saying the vaccines were great, you would say 'they would say that, wouldn't they', so when a paper well known for its bigotry, tax-dodging owners, and its anti-locjkdopuwn and anti-NHS positions, I am entitled to, and will, say so. The Torygraph is clearly and unambiguously horribly biased. You may like their position, and that is your right, but I don't have to accept their crap, especially not that of a particularly extreme journalist, not a medical or scientific professional.

The fact you keep ranting about people "panicking" shows you really don't understand the issues or the uncertainties, so it is understandable you get reassurance from a "common sense" confirmation bias bubble. Sorting out the pandemic properly sooner would have saved many or both, so spare me the sanctimonious economic hypocrisy.

And nobody who supported the B-word can pretend they really give a toss about the economic future of this country.


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## DRW (Dec 23, 2021)

If you want to see age breakdowns of cases  and how many people hospitalised(& passed away) with vaccine status, details are given in these reports(approx page 35) :-

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 50 (publishing.service.gov.uk) 

Prior ones :-

COVID-19 vaccine weekly surveillance reports (weeks 39 to 50) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

Needs a bit of excel work, to match up cases to hospital/deaths due to lag, to give you an idea of how many are hospitalised. Think for my age bracket last time I did it, it was about 1 in 110 got hospitalised from a  case if 2 dosed vaccine (sadly no split between underlying conditions, also need to consider the slight waning effect)


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I do care about her and I don’t wish her to die but the fact remains that she is really getting on and it will happen. Absolutely no stopping that.
		
Click to expand...

Past her sell by date then. 🙁


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			I do care about her and I don’t wish her to die but the fact remains that she is really getting on and it will happen. Absolutely no stopping that.
		
Click to expand...

How old are you? ?   70 is not very old. Why don't you google how many people are aged 70 and over in UK😀


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 23, 2021)

Bit of a dilemma.. Heart and head scenario. Flight booked to Fuerterventura with Ryanair on 8/1/22. They have cancelled ALL other flights to FUE for around 6 weeks, not returning with them. the plane is around 25% full and we have been to Spain earlier this year and know about the form filling plus additional requirements now. 

2 week trip and returning from Lanzarote. No “spring chickens” Captain Ron but fully jabbed. Will probably wait for another 10 days to decide but thoughts would be appreciated.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Oh grow up. Balance - hahahahahaha. The last thing that piece of drivel brings is balance.

It is perfectly right and proper for me to comment on other opinions and the people that make them. If Pfizer did a piece saying the vaccines were great, you would say 'they would say that, wouldn't they', so when a paper well known for its bigotry, tax-dodging owners, and its anti-locjkdopuwn and anti-NHS positions, I am entitled to, and will, say so. The Torygraph is clearly and unambiguously horribly biased. You may like their position, and that is your right, but I don't have to accept their crap, especially not that of a particularly extreme journalist, not a medical or scientific professional.

The fact you keep ranting about people "panicking" shows you really don't understand the issues or the uncertainties, so it is understandable you get reassurance from a "common sense" confirmation bias bubble. You should consider that the "common sense" of Torygraph readers and Tory backbenchers like the uber-moron Redwood have already unnecessarily cost many lives and much economic depression through their interference with a proper response. Sorting out the pandemic properly sooner would have saved many or both, so spare me the sanctimonious economic hypocrisy.

And nobody who supported the B-word can pretend they really give a toss about the economic future of this country.
		
Click to expand...

yet again more sanctamonioius rant, rant, rant, telegraph and government bashing and knocking other experts and focussing on what you see as the mistakes of previous lockdowns when everyone was learning. Taking the focus of the core current issues that 1. lockdowns and further measures are not relevant at this time given the data and 2. that doctor doom and many of the other pencil-pushing civil sevrants are serving up unnecessary fear from totally pie-in-the-sky projections that you obviously think are perfectly ok. Nothing more to say but no doubt you will respond as you have to have the final say!


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## IanM (Dec 23, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Bit of a dilemma.. Heart and head scenario. Flight booked to Fuerterventura with Ryanair on 8/1/22. They have cancelled ALL other flights to FUE for around 6 weeks, not returning with them. the plane is around 25% full and we have been to Spain earlier this year and know about the form filling plus additional requirements now.

2 week trip and returning from Lanzarote. No “spring chickens” Captain Ron but fully jabbed. Will probably wait for another 10 days to decide but thoughts would be appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

About flying with Ryanair or Covid?


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Oh grow up. Balance - hahahahahaha. The last thing that piece of drivel brings is balance.

It is perfectly right and proper for me to comment on other opinions and the people that make them. If Pfizer did a piece saying the vaccines were great, you would say 'they would say that, wouldn't they', so when a paper well known for its bigotry, tax-dodging owners, and its anti-locjkdopuwn and anti-NHS positions, I am entitled to, and will, say so. The Torygraph is clearly and unambiguously horribly biased. You may like their position, and that is your right, but I don't have to accept their crap, especially not that of a particularly extreme journalist, not a medical or scientific professional.

The fact you keep ranting about people "panicking" shows you really don't understand the issues or the uncertainties, so it is understandable you get reassurance from a "common sense" confirmation bias bubble. You should consider that the "common sense" of Torygraph readers and Tory backbenchers like the uber-moron Redwood have already unnecessarily cost many lives and much economic depression through their interference with a proper response. Sorting out the pandemic properly sooner would have saved many or both, so spare me the sanctimonious economic hypocrisy.

*And nobody who supported the B-word can pretend they really give a toss about the economic future of this country*.
		
Click to expand...

Re: the bold bit.
Making a statement like that does nothing but degrade your post.  You have slated news papers and people who have contrary views and beliefs to yourself and then post remarks that put you in the same extreme bracket as those you castigate.

I'm not going to comment on that remark as it's too political but in my opinion it degrades your credibility and that's a shame.


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 23, 2021)

IanM said:



			About flying with Ryanair or Covid?
		
Click to expand...

No problem re flying but more interested in COVID, particularly if we are positive  when we take a test prior to the return trip an cannot return. Also the undecided whether to go but this is our decision.


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			No problem re flying but more interested in COVID, particularly if we are positive  when we take a test prior to the return trip an cannot return. Also the undecided whether to go but this is our decision.
		
Click to expand...

It’s very much an individual decision I would say. Unless you are unable to pay for accommodation for an extended stay, or have work to get back for, I say go for it and enjoy the break. I certainly would.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I think most have wanted to see figures such as those referred to in bold since the first vaccines were rolled out, regardless of variant. Some clear, concise statistics, not dressed up in any way, clearly detailing the impact vaccines are having on reducing serious illness and death.

Figures simply quoting hospital admissions, those in ICU, those on ventilators and deaths, without providing context around vaccine status, are now rather meaningless. Unless, of course, they are regurgitated simply to prolong the panic.

And, yes, I accept the very data I would like to see is probably published somewhere, but I really don’t want to have to go hunting for it, only to then have to try and interpret it all first.

Simple figures. Surely, nearly two years in, the simple man and woman in the street should have these available to them.
		
Click to expand...

This post says it clear and strong, and I cannot see any defensible argument against it.
And if there is no such argument against it, it begs the question, in danger of becoming a conspiracy question ( because of refusal to just do it), as to why the figures are not being released.
My theory is that it is feared that people will see that anti vaxxers are way out of line, and that continued restrictions may be seen to be because of their continued anti vaxxing 
Whatever, the figures should be out there.  You should not have a populace beginning to believe that truth is being kept from them in order to justify policy.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2021)

Well the effect on me is skiing in Austria flying out on the 27th is out so just went a bought a little present to commiserate:


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 23, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Bit of a dilemma.. Heart and head scenario. Flight booked to Fuerterventura with Ryanair on 8/1/22. They have cancelled ALL other flights to FUE for around 6 weeks, not returning with them. the plane is around 25% full and we have been to Spain earlier this year and know about the form filling plus additional requirements now.

2 week trip and returning from Lanzarote. No “spring chickens” Captain Ron but fully jabbed. Will probably wait for another 10 days to decide but thoughts would be appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

My cousin is currently in Gran Canaria, different island but similar set up. He has been there about 10 days, got another 3 weeks to go. He has been very wary back in the UK but he said he feels very safe out there. It's outdoor living, where transmission is at its lowest, masks where required etc. Based on his experience I'd say go, enjoy yourself.

Please don't shout at me if Spain and the islands go on the red list when you are away though 😄


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Well the effect on me is skiing in Austria flying out on the 27th is out so just went a bought a little present to commiserate:
View attachment 40099

Click to expand...

I really sympathise re the skiing, but that’s not a bad way to compensate.


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## Captainron (Dec 23, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Bit of a dilemma.. Heart and head scenario. Flight booked to Fuerterventura with Ryanair on 8/1/22. They have cancelled ALL other flights to FUE for around 6 weeks, not returning with them. the plane is around 25% full and we have been to Spain earlier this year and know about the form filling plus additional requirements now.


2 week trip and returning from Lanzarote. No “spring chickens” Captain Ron but fully jabbed. Will probably wait for another 10 days to decide but thoughts would be appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Go and have a good holiday. Don’t put it off because you might get COVID! Go out and live life.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Methinks this thread should either go back to its original purpose - how has coronavirus *affected me* - or be closed. The constant bickering is tiresome and the two sides are clearly never going to agree. (And yes, I  know I dont have to read it, but I do...)
		
Click to expand...

Come on, it has clearly got to a highly relevant stage, I.e the question about the unpublished stats.  If we close a thread every time contributors are not in agreement, it will be flat as a pancake and invite an elephant somewhere he shouldn't go😀


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2021)

On duty at the vaccine centre last night. It was a walk in session from 1730 - 2330 hrs for 1,2,3 & booster jabs. Bit of a shame as only around 100 people turned up. One guy came in then changed his mind for his booster as he didn’t want to feel “poorly” over Christmas, me and one of the Royal Marine jabbers took the mickey so he turned around and had it.
The NHS duty supervisor told us we really shouldn’t talk to people like that, we just pointed to the result.


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The NHS duty supervisor told us we really shouldn’t talk to people like that, we just pointed to the result.
		
Click to expand...

In police circles that sort of tactic used to be referred to as using The Ways & Means Act. Unconventional but bloody effective!

Respect.


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## Captainron (Dec 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How old are you? ?   70 is not very old. Why don't you google how many people are aged 70 and over in UK😀
		
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Turn 45 in 2 weeksish. Old enough and on the slope to the end now. Love life like I’m 21 though. Kick the backside out of it. If I make 70 I will be astounded and a touch disappointed. 
Too many people living too long nowadays.


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Turn 45 in 2 weeksish. Old enough and on the slope to the end now. Love life like I’m 21 though. Kick the backside out of it. If I make 70 I will be astounded and a touch disappointed.
Too many people living too long nowadays.
		
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Not sure whether to applaud the optimism or pessimism in that post!


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## Captainron (Dec 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Not sure whether to applaud the optimism or pessimism in that post!
		
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100% optimistic that post was.


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## Banchory Buddha (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Turn 45 in 2 weeksish. Old enough and on the slope to the end now. Love life like I’m 21 though. Kick the backside out of it. If I make 70 I will be astounded and a touch disappointed.
Too many people living too long nowadays.
		
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Got to be honest, I'm much the same, dribbling in my soup at 85 and shuffling along the pavement getting in everyone's way. Live fast, die young as Lemmy said


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Re: the bold bit.
Making a statement like that does nothing but degrade your post.  You have slated news papers and people who have contrary views and beliefs to yourself and then post remarks that put you in the same extreme bracket as those you castigate.

*I'm not going to comment on that remark* as it's too political but in my opinion it degrades your credibility and that's a shame.
		
Click to expand...

Yet your entire post was 'comment on that remark'! 

FWIW, I'm inclined to agree with you. It was so unrelated to the rest of the post/conversation that it took me a while to make the connection! In mitigation, the Torygraph has, imo, moved from a 'somewhat/noticeably right of centre paper featuring measured' towards a 'mere mouthpiece for the Conservatives'! I'm more and more convinced that the only unbiased news organisation (though perhaps - and reasonably imo - not individual reporters) is the BBC. The fact that it's so often criticised by either/both 'wings', actually reinforces that view!


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## upsidedown (Dec 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			On duty at the vaccine centre last night. It was a walk in session from 1730 - 2330 hrs for 1,2,3 & booster jabs. Bit of a shame as only around 100 people turned up. One guy came in then changed his mind for his booster as he didn’t want to feel “poorly” over Christmas, me and one of the Royal Marine jabbers took the mickey so he turned around and had it.
The NHS duty supervisor told us we really shouldn’t talk to people like that, we just pointed to the result.
		
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Hid did a Vac shift at local hospital for staff and patients Jabs and did  just 12 in a 8 hr shift 😕


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Turn 45 in 2 weeksish. Old enough and on the slope to the end now. Love life like I’m 21 though. Kick the backside out of it. If I make 70 I will be astounded and a touch disappointed. 
Too many people living too long nowadays.
		
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You'll change your mind re 70 when you're 69!.
I still have "goals" in my life, like reducing the golf score, looking forward to catching lovely roach or  tench. Enjoying my classical music where I witness  one of the pinnacles of human endeavour.
I don't want it to end, so why should you?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 23, 2021)

my wif'e eldest son went to America a week ago and his wife tested positive for covid. She had to pay $300 for a PCR test and he has to do the same! Expensive. The covid insurance was another £250


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			Methinks this thread should either go back to its original purpose - how has coronavirus *affected me* - or be closed. The constant bickering is tiresome and *the two sides are clearly never going to agree*. (And yes, I  know I dont have to read it, but I do...)
		
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Wouldn't particularly disagree, but still plenty of valuable info being provided. Agree with the bold bit, but so what - both sets of posts provide valuable info that I can make up my own mind from.

One thing that has puzzled me - or at least the resolution has eluded me - is wrt to 'the rate of spread versus seriousness' of Omicron. When this variant was first detected (or shortly after) the SA folk described it as seriously more spreadable, but significantly less dangerous if caught., compared to Delta, say. That info then seemed to disappear/be stressed less, only to become the conclusion in UK rather recently. I'm curious to understand why! Is it because local clinical data is only becoming/has become available? Or was it a 'conscious decision' for 'authorities' to stress the significantly more contagious nature to bolster/justify current/additional anti-Covid rhetoric and controls? Or am I going int 'conspiracy theory' mode?!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			You'll change your mind re 70 when you're 69!.
I still have "goals" in my life, like reducing the golf score, looking forward to catching lovely roach or  tench. Enjoying my classical music where I witness  one of the pinnacles of human endeavour.
I don't want it to end, so why should you?
		
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Because he lives for the minute.  Much later minutes will inevitably alter that outlook.


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## D-S (Dec 23, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Hid did a Vac shift at local hospital for staff and patients Jabs and did  just 12 in a 8 hr shift 😕
		
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Nevertheless 840k people did get their booster yesterday, that’s over 6 million in the past 7 days.


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## Crazyface (Dec 23, 2021)

Shoot me down, I don't care, need to vent. 50% of NHS staff off coz of covid. How? They wear all the protective stuff don't they? They are aware that there is a problem, aren't they? So thgey wear this stuff outside of work and take precautions, don't they? So how are they catching it? 50% of supermarket staff haven't cleared off on a jolly extended xmas holiday, and they are in more contact with the public. Why? I'll tell you why. They don't get paid load of dosh. They are mostly on part time contracts and need the bloody money. The NHS is staff by people who aren't from this country, so we are told. How wonderful they are. Where are they now? 50% off!!!!!! Also, the local NHS staff were whooping it up at an xmas party a week ago. How do I know? Coz my wife was at the same do but with a different company. It's all lies. Don't believe all you read. Loads are gpoing off with stress and we know of one auxillery who has jumped on the bandwagon and got a month off with stress. We know them and what they do. Stress my bum. They've just seen an opportunity and grabbed it. It's these people who will have us locked down. Well not me. They'll not stop me this time. Not EVER AGAIN. I've been to work mask less for the last two weeks and not caught it. It's all a joke. 

Happy Xmas. Poo New Year, BJ will have no choice. See you in 2022 if I'm not banned. Trraaaaa !


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Shoot me down, I don't care, need to vent. 50% of NHS staff off coz of covid. How? They wear all the protective stuff don't they? They are aware that there is a problem, aren't they? So thgey wear this stuff outside of work and take precautions, don't they? So how are they catching it? 50% of supermarket staff haven't cleared off on a jolly extended xmas holiday, and they are in more contact with the public. Why? I'll tell you why. They don't get paid load of dosh. They are mostly on part time contracts and need the bloody money. The NHS is staff by people who aren't from this country, so we are told. How wonderful they are. Where are they now? 50% off!!!!!! Also, the local NHS staff were whooping it up at an xmas party a week ago. How do I know? Coz my wife was at the same do but with a different company. It's all lies. Don't believe all you read. Loads are gpoing off with stress and we know of one auxillery who has jumped on the bandwagon and got a month off with stress. We know them and what they do. Stress my bum. They've just seen an opportunity and grabbed it. It's these people who will have us locked down. Well not me. They'll not stop me this time. Not EVER AGAIN. I've been to work mask less for the last two weeks and not caught it. It's all a joke.

Get a grip...
Happy Xmas. Poo New Year, BJ will have no choice. See you in 2022 if I'm not banned. Trraaaaa !
		
Click to expand...

The rate of infection amongst NHS staff is UP 54%....not 50% in total.
Total of 19k off sick at the moment due to Covid


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Shoot me down, I don't care, need to vent. 50% of NHS staff off coz of covid. How? They wear all the protective stuff don't they? They are aware that there is a problem, aren't they? So thgey wear this stuff outside of work and take precautions, don't they? So how are they catching it? 50% of supermarket staff haven't cleared off on a jolly extended xmas holiday, and they are in more contact with the public. Why? I'll tell you why. They don't get paid load of dosh. They are mostly on part time contracts and need the bloody money. The NHS is staff by people who aren't from this country, so we are told. How wonderful they are. Where are they now? 50% off!!!!!! Also, the local NHS staff were whooping it up at an xmas party a week ago. How do I know? Coz my wife was at the same do but with a different company. It's all lies. Don't believe all you read. Loads are gpoing off with stress and we know of one auxillery who has jumped on the bandwagon and got a month off with stress. We know them and what they do. Stress my bum. They've just seen an opportunity and grabbed it. It's these people who will have us locked down. Well not me. They'll not stop me this time. Not EVER AGAIN. I've been to work mask less for the last two weeks and not caught it. It's all a joke.

Happy Xmas. Poo New Year, BJ will have no choice. See you in 2022 if I'm not banned. Trraaaaa !
		
Click to expand...

surely worth doing some fact checking first 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59769251


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## Brads (Dec 23, 2021)

Well after a poor year with my old man dying and after getting my Ma to agree to come here for Xmas day, I’ve just had my positive pcr test results back.
Well done covid for managing to ruin my entire year , you utter 
Not best pleased.


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## drdel (Dec 23, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Oh grow up. Balance - hahahahahaha. The last thing that piece of drivel brings is balance.

It is perfectly right and proper for me to comment on other opinions and the people that make them. If Pfizer did a piece saying the vaccines were great, you would say 'they would say that, wouldn't they', so when a paper well known for its bigotry, tax-dodging owners, and its anti-locjkdopuwn and anti-NHS positions, I am entitled to, and will, say so. The Torygraph is clearly and unambiguously horribly biased. You may like their position, and that is your right, but I don't have to accept their crap, especially not that of a particularly extreme journalist, not a medical or scientific professional.

The fact you keep ranting about people "panicking" shows you really don't understand the issues or the uncertainties, so it is understandable you get reassurance from a "common sense" confirmation bias bubble. You should consider that the "common sense" of Torygraph readers and Tory backbenchers like the uber-moron Redwood have already unnecessarily cost many lives and much economic depression through their interference with a proper response. Sorting out the pandemic properly sooner would have saved many or both, so spare me the sanctimonious economic hypocrisy.

And nobody who supported the B-word can pretend they really give a toss about the economic future of this country.
		
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I'm inclined to agree.

The problem is that most people ( IMO a majority) have no idea of the capabilities of modern modelling software.  It's moved on a long way from playing with spreadsheets.  In addition the mathematical understanding of how Pandemics develop has also changed in recent years. Journalists have habit of skating past the complex bits and the qualifiers as they search for clickbait.

Even the judiciary recognise the limitations of 'public' based juries because of technical and scientific complexity. Prof Whitty tries to simplify a complex issue and usually does pretty well  again IMO.

I would not put the Telegraph in the ranks of clever thinkers.


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## DanFST (Dec 23, 2021)

Quite a horrific statistic.

since 27th november:

7 omnicron deaths, average age 83
239 Suicides between the ages of 25-44

Not gonna bother replying to that nonsense above.


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

drdel said:



			I'm inclined to agree.

The problem is that most people ( IMO a majority) have no idea of the capabilities of modern modelling software.  It's moved on a long way from playing with spreadsheets.  In addition the mathematical understanding of how Pandemics develop has also changed in recent years. Journalists have habit of skating past the complex bits and the qualifiers as they search for clickbait.

Even the judiciary recognise the limitations of 'public' based juries because of technical and scientific complexity. Prof Whitty tries to simplify a complex issue and usually does pretty well  again IMO.

I would not put the Telegraph in the ranks of clever thinkers.
		
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I don’t doubt the accuracy of what you say, and certainly think the press and media have been beyond shameful throughout the pandemic.

Given that, I do question why, especially in recent times, the figures I referred to earlier today have not been provided directly by ministers at government briefings.

Nobody can tell me that our masters don’t know;

1. The number of people in hospital as a direct result of Covid.

2. The number in ICU as a direct result of Covid.

3. The number on ventilation as a direct result of Covid.

4. The number of deaths where Covid was the primary cause.

5. The vaccination status of all those in 1-4.

They are the numbers most want to know, because they are the most important to the man on the street, especially as we want to know the true impact of vaccines. Frankly, I couldn’t give a flying fig how many have died for any reason within 28 days of a positive Covid test. I’m not in the least bit interested, because that number tells me absolutely zip regarding the impact of the pandemic.

I can’t believe the figures I refer to are not made available daily in an easy to digest format.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 23, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on, it has clearly got to a highly relevant stage, I.e the question about the unpublished stats.  If we close a thread every time contributors are not in agreement, it will be flat as a pancake and invite an elephant somewhere he shouldn't go😀
		
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Trouble is, it's just going round, and round. And round and round and round. With the same protagonists blowing hot air & insults. (Global warming is a definite based on this thread ...)


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## backwoodsman (Dec 23, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Bit of a dilemma.. Heart and head scenario. Flight booked to Fuerterventura with Ryanair on 8/1/22. They have cancelled ALL other flights to FUE for around 6 weeks, not returning with them. the plane is around 25% full and we have been to Spain earlier this year and know about the form filling plus additional requirements now. 

2 week trip and returning from Lanzarote. No “spring chickens” Captain Ron but fully jabbed. Will probably wait for another 10 days to decide but thoughts would be appreciated.
		
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Don't  forget that the Canary Islands (for now) have different entry requirements to mainland Spain.


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I can’t believe the figures I refer to are not made available daily in an easy to digest format.
		
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Because if they were the majority of the population would sack off any present or future rules and just get on with it.


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Because if they were the majority of the population would sack off any present or future rules and just get on with it.
		
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Ain’t that the truth!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2021)

Done me daily LFT and it showed the faintest trace on the T line, Missis T showed ok But her throat is not good and coughing like a 40 a day smoker. But we have both been for a PCR. Watch this space. 
Daughter has been round yesterday and the grandsproggs could be released from the PCR covid prison on the 27th and come here. Well if Tash has COVID they won’t. God knows what will happen to them. Daughter is back at work on the 28th and the force has been hammered with COVID. For me one of the Major problems with this Omicron has not been how serious it could be but how infectious it is. The knock on effect of catching it and the ramifications to family at this time of the year is unbelievable.
Mr and Missis Tash are busting a gut to stick by the rules and play the game. However I called me Mum earlier, she was on about me brother who went out for a meal last night. His ex wife’s daughter turned up having failed a LFT and said “ stuff it, Ave had enough, I wanted a meal with the family”. Some folk are putting two fingers up to the whole Jiggery do.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 23, 2021)

Brads said:



			Well after a poor year with my old man dying and after getting my Ma to agree to come here for Xmas day, I’ve just had my positive pcr test results back.
Well done covid for managing to ruin my entire year , you utter 
Not best pleased.
		
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Sorry to hear that. Tough times. Wish this bloody virus would just do one now...


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## 3offTheTee (Dec 23, 2021)

Brads said:



			Well after a poor year with my old man dying and after getting my Ma to agree to come here for Xmas day, I’ve just had my positive pcr test results back.
Well done covid for managing to ruin my entire year , you utter 
Not best pleased.
		
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Be inclined to delete that post NOW Brad my friend


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2021)

I wonder if this obsession with daily numbers (120,000 today) will continue every year? When flu is back (assuming it hasn't be cured in the last 2 years) will we have an exciting daily update to tell us how many people have that?

Cases is meaningless now and should be scraped and replaced with daily hospitalisations. That figure should be broken down into those who are in with Covid and those who are in because of Covid. Those figures are much more beneficial in terms of seeing what type of s**t we’re in.


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2021)

Maybe the Mods haven't seen it..?
They don't live on here....if you think a post breaks rules use the report button - then they will see it.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Done me daily LFT and it showed the faintest trace on the T line, Missis T showed ok But her throat is not good and coughing like a 40 a day smoker. But we have both been for a PCR. Watch this space.
Daughter has been round yesterday and the grandsproggs could be released from the PCR covid prison on the 27th and come here. Well if Tash has COVID they won’t. God knows what will happen to them. Daughter is back at work on the 28th and the force has been hammered with COVID. For me one of the Major problems with this Omicron has not been how serious it could be but how infectious it is. The knock on effect of catching it and the ramifications to family at this time of the year is unbelievable.
Mr and Missis Tash are busting a gut to stick by the rules and play the game. However I called me Mum earlier, she was on about me brother who went out for a meal last night. His ex wife’s daughter turned up having failed a LFT and said “ stuff it, Ave had enough, I wanted a meal with the family”.* Some folk are putting two fingers up to the whole Jiggery do.*

Click to expand...

Fingers crossed you stay well Tashy.

My brother was out shopping with his two daughters a couple of days ago. The younger one said, "I've just seen my friend in Costa". My brother said, "Do you want to go and have a drink with her". Response from daughter was, "No, she's on her way for a PCR test because she had a positive LFT this morning". Some people really don't care about others.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 23, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Maybe the Mods haven't seen it..?
They don't live on here....if you think a post breaks rules use the report button - then they will see it.

Click to expand...

i did thanks. But it’s still here.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			My cousin is currently in Gran Canaria, different island but similar set up. He has been there about 10 days, got another 3 weeks to go. He has been very wary back in the UK but he said he feels very safe out there. It's outdoor living, where transmission is at its lowest, masks where required etc. Based on his experience I'd say go, enjoy yourself.

Please don't shout at me if Spain and the islands go on the red list when you are away though 😄
		
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If memory serves me right someone went to Mexico last year 😉 my point at the time was.The governments of both country’s let you fly. They say it is safe. So why not? It is exactly the same now. That said just because you can, don’t mean you have to. 3OTT hits the nail firmly on the head. It’s a head over heart situation. At the moment Covid is rife in the UK. At the moment is it safer in the Canaries. Recharging batteries in the sunshine away from the threat of COVID. Yes please.
I have flown to both Poland and Lanzarote this year and both times the flights with Ryanair and Jet2 were fantastic. What was comforting was there countries attitude to COVID. Nigh on everyone wears masks and the levels of cleanliness were second to none.


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## adam6177 (Dec 23, 2021)

I note the BBC story live now that "a major report showed the protection from catching covid started to wane 10 weeks after the booster".

So expect another booster at the end of February I guess 🤷


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## patricks148 (Dec 23, 2021)

A reminder guys please steer clear of political content.


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2021)

Interesting to note that South Africa's death numbers have almost doubled in the last 7 days...


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Shoot me down, I don't care, need to vent. 50% of NHS staff off coz of covid. How? They wear all the protective stuff don't they? They are aware that there is a problem, aren't they? So thgey wear this stuff outside of work and take precautions, don't they? So how are they catching it? 50% of supermarket staff haven't cleared off on a jolly extended xmas holiday, and they are in more contact with the public. Why? I'll tell you why. They don't get paid load of dosh. They are mostly on part time contracts and need the bloody money. The NHS is staff by people who aren't from this country, so we are told. How wonderful they are. Where are they now? 50% off!!!!!! Also, the local NHS staff were whooping it up at an xmas party a week ago. How do I know? Coz my wife was at the same do but with a different company. It's all lies. Don't believe all you read. Loads are gpoing off with stress and we know of one auxillery who has jumped on the bandwagon and got a month off with stress. We know them and what they do. Stress my bum. They've just seen an opportunity and grabbed it. It's these people who will have us locked down. Well not me. They'll not stop me this time. Not EVER AGAIN. I've been to work mask less for the last two weeks and not caught it. It's all a joke.
...
		
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Well, there's only 1 word appropriate to that tirade!...

Twaddle!


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			yet again more sanctamonioius rant, rant, rant, telegraph and government bashing and knocking other experts and focussing on what you see as the mistakes of previous lockdowns when everyone was learning. Taking the focus of the core current issues that 1. lockdowns and further measures are not relevant at this time given the data and 2. that doctor doom and many of the other pencil-pushing civil sevrants are serving up unnecessary fear from totally pie-in-the-sky projections that you obviously think are perfectly ok. Nothing more to say but no doubt you will respond as you have to have the final say!
		
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Bye.


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I wonder if this obsession with daily numbers (120,000 today) will continue every year? When flu is back (assuming it hasn't be cured in the last 2 years) will we have an exciting daily update to tell us how many people have that?

Cases is meaningless now and should be scraped and replaced with daily hospitalisations. That figure should be broken down into those who are in with Covid and those who are in because of Covid. Those figures are much more beneficial in terms of seeing what type of s**t we’re in.
		
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As the numbers/day are horrendous - and increasing markedly, I believe it's right to be 'obsessed' - at least currently. Once they 'settle down', then perhaps....

Hospitalisation data is vailable here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare Though not figures of with v because of, possibly because not counted separately.


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## D-S (Dec 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			As the numbers/day are horrendous - and increasing markedly, I believe it's right to be 'obsessed' - at least currently. Once they 'settle down', then perhaps....

Hospitalisation data is vailable here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare Though not figures of with v because of, possibly because not counted separately.
		
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Not that horrendous, patients on ventilator at mid October levels having been much higher, patients in hospital still lower than in mid November. Cases are one thing, admissions are another but depend on length of stay.


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			As the numbers/day are horrendous - and increasing markedly, I believe it's right to be 'obsessed' - at least currently. Once they 'settle down', then perhaps....

Hospitalisation data is vailable here https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare Though not figures of with v because of, possibly because not counted separately.
		
Click to expand...

But with Omicron being so transmissible yet far less severe in terms of illness what do cases actually tell us bar the former? Does it really matter other than being used as the Sword of Damocles hanging over us as a threat of future restrictions?

Surely the only thing matters is whether these cases translate into hospitalisations/ICU visits and deaths. As things that these figures are, at present, pretty flat given the sharp uprise in case numbers. The reason they’re not giving these figures so much is that they don’t serve the purpose of keeping people in check. I appreciate that there is a lag in the data so things could still go pear shaped but, so far, the evidence is that it shouldn’t. 

The other issue that needs to be resolved going forward is this protection of the NHS. At present it’s not the overwhelming due to hospitalisations that is the issue it is a lack of staff due to isolation. That needs to be sorted but shouldn’t be used as a reason to restrict people/businesses otherwise we’re going to be sat here next winter having exactly the same conversation.


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But with Omicron being so transmissible yet far less severe in terms of illness what do cases actually tell us bar the former? Does it really matter other than being used as the Sword of Damocles hanging over us as a threat of future restrictions?

Surely the only thing matters is whether these cases translate into hospitalisations/ICU visits and deaths. As things that these figures are, at present, pretty flat given the sharp uprise in case numbers. The reason they’re not giving these figures so much is that they don’t serve the purpose of keeping people in check. I appreciate that there is a lag in the data so things could still go pear shaped but, so far, the evidence is that it shouldn’t.

The other issue that needs to be resolved going forward is this protection of the NHS. At present it’s not the overwhelming due to hospitalisations that is the issue it is a lack of staff due to isolation. That needs to be sorted but shouldn’t be used as a reason to restrict people/businesses otherwise we’re going to be sat here next winter having exactly the same conversation.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that isolation policy should be reviewed? 
The, currently, 19k NHS staff isolating is only going to rise in number as the infection rate rises....
Eventually, there may not be enough staff to run ICUs or General wards..A&Es might only accept dire emergencies or even have to close.
The number of cases is going to more important in the next few weeks than a lot of people are thinking.


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Are you suggesting that isolation policy should be reviewed?
The, currently, 19k NHS staff isolating is only going to rise in number as the infection rate rises....
Eventually, there may not be enough staff to run ICUs or General wards..A&Es might only accept dire emergencies or even have to close.
The number of cases is going to more important in the next few weeks than a lot of people are thinking.
		
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I think there may have to be some NHS specific rules on isolation that could be relaxed. Given so many are asymptomatic couldn’t there be a way that they still come into work and are restricted to Covid wards? There will have to be something creative done as firstly we’re protecting the NHS to avoid overwhelming them and now we’re having to protect them because they don’t have the staff. It’s a problem that needs to solved that doesn’t involve restrictions on the general public.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 23, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Quite a horrific statistic.

since 27th november:

7 omnicron deaths, average age 83
239 Suicides between the ages of 25-44

Not gonna bother replying to that nonsense above.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately they don’t count. Covid is the only thing that matters, so we must hide behind the sofa whilst everything else around us burns.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Unfortunately they don’t count. Covid is the only thing that matters, so we must hide behind the sofa whilst everything else around us burns.
		
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Will be interested to know who has stated that they don’t count or matter


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## Billysboots (Dec 23, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			Unfortunately they don’t count. Covid is the only thing that matters, so we must hide behind the sofa whilst everything else around us burns.
		
Click to expand...

You know, the more I see of the chaos, the luckier I feel given my circumstances.

I first went to my GP with abdominal issues in March and went down the two week fast track route for cancer investigation. From diagnosis to major surgery was a mere four months, and mine was only stage two disease. There will be thousands out there who have delayed GP appointments, referrals, cancelled appointments and so on, and the impact could be devastating.

Locally the NHS have been faultless. But it can’t last, surely.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 23, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Are you suggesting that isolation policy should be reviewed? 
The, currently, 19k NHS staff isolating is only going to rise in number as the infection rate rises....
Eventually, there may not be enough staff to run ICUs or General wards..A&Es might only accept dire emergencies or even have to close.
The number of cases is going to more important in the next few weeks than a lot of people are thinking.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, this is a very valid parameter for trying to keep the cases down.
The implication in R2R's post is that restrictions should be laxed, in which event cases will massively rise. Ok, so if they are all at home putting no pressure on the hospitals , no problem.
But it won't be like that. Among those cases will be a lot of staff of all sorts of concerns, vital concerns such as police, Ambulance, dustmen , industry etc etc, most importantly, NHS staff - as Imurg says, hospitals may not be able to function fully, and maybe not at all.

Unless you advocate that cases do not isolate, but carry on working!!!- yikes.

Add to that the hospitalisation of the unvaxxed. Omicron is still doing that to those persons. I am not overly concerned about them, they have had sufficient info and begging to be vaxxed, for me to have much sympathy, but they are being treated and taking up resources, vital resources.
Combine that with the lessening staff to provide those resources, and there is only one solution.
Cut the cases as much as you can.
One thing not publicised too much is - what is the estimate of the numbers of unvaxxed adults in the country at this time?.  All potential hospital cases.

Next year we will be in a herd immunity scenario, I should think, like with flu, so the hospitals will cope ( as they still manage to do with flu), but , at the moment , we have to keep hospitals functioning


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			You know, the more I see of the chaos, the luckier I feel given my circumstances.

I first went to my GP with abdominal issues in March and went down the two week fast track route for cancer investigation. From diagnosis to major surgery was a mere four months, and mine was only stage two disease. There will be thousands out there who have delayed GP appointments, referrals, cancelled appointments and so on, and the impact could be devastating.

Locally the NHS have been faultless. But it can’t last, surely.
		
Click to expand...

Missis T found a lump less than 2 weeks ago. Saw the Dr the day, after Wednesday she was given the all clear. Turns out that going to the gym has given her muscle where her tits once was. Best Xmas pressie we have had in years.  Anyway I am the first to rip our GP practice to bits coz at times they are rammel. I am not alone in that view. But in this instance they and the NHS have been fantastic. She was talking to her ex workmate yesterday who dropped off her pressie. His words “ the hospital is at breaking point” ☹️


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think there may have to be some NHS specific rules on isolation that could be relaxed. Given so many are asymptomatic couldn’t there be a way that they still come into work and are restricted to Covid wards? There will have to be something creative done as firstly we’re protecting the NHS to avoid overwhelming them and now we’re having to protect them because they don’t have the staff. It’s a problem that needs to solved that doesn’t involve restrictions on the general public.
		
Click to expand...

So you want +ve Doctors and Nurses walking around hospitals?
You can't keep them all on covid wards and, to be honest, its not the covid wards that are the issue.
How can this be "sorted" without bringing the number of cases down?
And it's not just hospitals
Bucket loads of trains have been cancelled as there's a shortage of drivers due to isolating 
Even footy matches getting postponed 
We have to get the numbers down.


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2021)

Imurg said:



			So you want +ve Doctors and Nurses walking around hospitals?
You can't keep them all on covid wards and, to be honest, its not the covid wards that are the issue.
How can this be "sorted" without bringing the number of cases down?
And it's not just hospitals
Bucket loads of trains have been cancelled as there's a shortage of drivers due to isolating
Even footy matches getting postponed
We have to get the numbers down.
		
Click to expand...

I was just thinking out loud, just ideas….maybe not good ideas granted. 

In terms of getting numbers down, that ship has sailed imo. We just have to hope that with the reduced severity that the hospitalisations etc stay relatively flat.


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## Ethan (Dec 23, 2021)

Vaccine escape - paper on vaccine escape, worse with Omicron that Delta. This is in Nature, and is peer reviewed, but is by a bunch of scientists and has not yet been confirmed by journalists in the right wing UK media.

The story of Omicron may be about the race to get boosters and hold case numbers with public health measures versus the growth in cases eating back into the vaccinated with waning immunity


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

D-S said:



			Not that horrendous, patients on ventilator at mid October levels having been much higher, patients in hospital still lower than in mid November. Cases are one thing, admissions are another but depend on length of stay.
		
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Have you not already heard that?
It's what many have already stated - even quite a while ago, as I posted earlier!
This variant isn't as deadly! But that's no reason to be complacent!1


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## D-S (Dec 23, 2021)

Yes of course I have but you said "As the numbers/day are horrendous - and increasing markedly" hence my response.


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

D-S said:



			Yes of course I have but you said "As the numbers/day are horrendous - and increasing markedly" hence my response.
		
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Are you suggesting I'm wrong - that the numbers/day aren't 'horrendous and increasing markedly'??


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2021)

We got supplied covid tests by work both of us so had just had the old rapid tests 

These new ones (well late to the party) 15 mins and only up the nose .. happy days


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## road2ruin (Dec 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			We got supplied covid tests by work both of us so had just had the old rapid tests

These new ones (well late to the party) 15 mins and only up the nose .. happy days
		
Click to expand...

They amazing, plus you don’t have to have not eaten/drunk for 30 minutes beforehand so much easier in the mornings when everyone is rushing around. 

From a personal perspective these tests have shown that I have a gag reflex of a 6 month old so these ‘nose only’ jobbies have been a god send.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 23, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They amazing, plus you don’t have to have not eaten/drunk for 30 minutes beforehand so much easier in the mornings when everyone is rushing around.

From a personal perspective these tests have shown that I have a gag reflex of a 6 month old so these ‘nose only’ jobbies have been a god send.
		
Click to expand...

Mine still said avoid food for 30 mins before 

Said don't vape, drink or eat 30 mins before .. dunno why if it's up your nose not your throat but that's all they said 

Altho I never realised the 30 mins thing until earlier .. I just do them without instructions now as so used to them


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## D-S (Dec 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Are you suggesting I'm wrong - that the numbers/day aren't 'horrendous and increasing markedly'??
		
Click to expand...

See my reply


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

D-S said:



			See my reply
		
Click to expand...

120,000 positive cases IS pretty horrendous!
Do you disagree?


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## ExRabbit (Dec 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Mine still said avoid food for 30 mins before

Said don't vape, drink or eat 30 mins before .. dunno why if it's up your nose not your throat but that's all they said

Altho I never realised the 30 mins thing until earlier .. *I just do them without instructions now as so used to them*

Click to expand...

Two of my sisters carried on swabbing their throats for quite a long time after the new ones came in because they hadn't read the instructions. They only found out when they complained on our WhatsApp group that the new swabs were too short to reach the back of their throats without putting their fingers into their mouths....


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## D-S (Dec 23, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			120,000 positive cases IS pretty horrendous!
Do you disagree?
		
Click to expand...

You published the healthcare numbers, I commented on them not the case numbers - I, for one, think that the healthcare numbers are the most relevant now given the new strain etc. - I assumed you did too hence your link and my reply.


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## Foxholer (Dec 23, 2021)

D-S said:



			.'..I, for one, think that the healthcare numbers are the most relevant now given the new strain etc. - I assumed you did too hence your link and my reply.
		
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Kindly don't make assumptions about what I think! Especially in a post that completely evades a direct question!
FWIW. I _may_ agree with you, but your attitude (see above) makes me extremely suspicious about your motives!


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## D-S (Dec 23, 2021)

N


Foxholer said:



			Kindly don't make assumptions about what I think! Especially in a post that completely evades a direct question!
FWIW. I _may_ agree with you, but your attitude (see above) makes me extremely suspicious about your motives!
		
Click to expand...

Now who’s making assumptions? 
If you want to comment on horrendous case numbers fine but I respectfully suggest you don’t do that that whilst copying a link to healthcare numbers which aren’t horrendous *yet*.
Anyway it’s now Christmas so that’s it from me - wishing everyone a peaceful festive season.


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## 4LEX (Dec 23, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Fingers crossed you stay well Tashy.

*My brother was out shopping with his two daughters a couple of days ago. The younger one said, "I've just seen my friend in Costa". My brother said, "Do you want to go and have a drink with her". Response from daughter was, "No, she's on her way for a PCR test because she had a positive LFT this morning". Some people really don't care about others.*

Click to expand...

The sad thing is, they'll be the first to moan about any restrictions or their favourite pub going under while blaming someone else and ignoring their own moronic behaviour.

My add to the thread in general,

As always the same people moaning about restrictions again when England has some of the weakest in the entire world. The "get on with it" brigade would change their tune if they were in a car crash and the waiting time exceeded two hours for an ambulance due to staff shortages. In time Covid will hopefully mutate into a common cold and they'll no testing, isolating or need for ten boosters a year. But at the moment it's wise to be careful. Anyone that wants to gym it can do, ditto drink in a pub, same as go to a football stadium or mix with family and friends. After the previous horrendous restrictions this is nothing. The mental health card and comparison with suicide rates is pathetic. Do you really think the poor people who killed themselves would be here if they didn't need a LFT to get into a football ground/nightclub or wear a mask in a shop? Poor form using a serious issue to try to score cheap points. I'm happy to wait a month or so longer for those less fortunate and to whom Covid can be devestating.

The data looks encouraging so far on the new variant, maybe game changing, so let's hope it's more of the same going forwward. 

Merry Christmas to everyone and have a safe Christmas with friends and family


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## GB72 (Dec 24, 2021)

Looking forward to the next couple of days. 3 families have all stayed out if outside contact as much as possible for the last couple of weeks. We are all fully vaxed, all taking lfts in the morning then spending the next 3 days celebrating together, one day at each house. No other guests. About as safe as I can make it I guess


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

Police raid!!

Went to a charity bash yesterday afternoon at a bar down on the Playa. Everyone sat outside on a huge terrace. There was a band playing 70’s and 80’s music. Food included in the €5 ticket price, for which you went into the bar to get.

I was in the bar, masked up as per the rules, when the Police arrived, hence had to show my Covid passport. Then a typical Spanish debate started between the bar owner and the Police - lots of arm waving and lots of volume. One of the tables had more than 10 people at it - 12.

Bar owner fined. People at that table fined. Music stopped.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Police raid!!

Went to a charity bash yesterday afternoon at a bar down on the Playa. Everyone sat outside on a huge terrace. There was a band playing 70’s and 80’s music. Food included in the €5 ticket price, for which you went into the bar to get.

I was in the bar, masked up as per the rules, when the Police arrived, hence had to show my Covid passport. Then a typical Spanish debate started between the bar owner and the Police - lots of arm waving and lots of volume. One of the tables had more than 10 people at it - 12.

Bar owner fined. People at that table fined. Music stopped.
		
Click to expand...

You did say the other day that the Guardia were strict - goes to show a difference in enforcement where in one country the police authorities are actively involved, and in another they are not.. Out of interest only, which bar?


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## IanM (Dec 24, 2021)

Its a French thing as well in the UK.

Follk will complain about restrictions as well as lack of enforcement!


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2021)

4LEX said:



			The sad thing is, they'll be the first to moan about any restrictions or their favourite pub going under while blaming someone else and ignoring their own moronic behaviour.

My add to the thread in general,

As always the same people moaning about restrictions again when England has some of the weakest in the entire world. The "get on with it" brigade would change their tune if they were in a car crash and the waiting time exceeded two hours for an ambulance due to staff shortages. In time Covid will hopefully mutate into a common cold and they'll no testing, isolating or need for ten boosters a year. But at the moment it's wise to be careful. Anyone that wants to gym it can do, ditto drink in a pub, same as go to a football stadium or mix with family and friends. After the previous horrendous restrictions this is nothing. The mental health card and comparison with suicide rates is pathetic. Do you really think the poor people who killed themselves would be here if they didn't need a LFT to get into a football ground/nightclub or wear a mask in a shop? Poor form using a serious issue to try to score cheap points. I'm happy to wait a month or so longer for those less fortunate and to whom Covid can be devestating.

The data looks encouraging so far on the new variant, maybe game changing, so let's hope it's more of the same going forwward.

Merry Christmas to everyone and have a safe Christmas with friends and family 

Click to expand...

I agree. The current restrictions are very minor and only people who want to be riled by them will be. But there are a few such people around, including here.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Police raid!!

Went to a charity bash yesterday afternoon at a bar down on the Playa. Everyone sat outside on a huge terrace. There was a band playing 70’s and 80’s music. Food included in the €5 ticket price, for which you went into the bar to get.

I was in the bar, masked up as per the rules, when the Police arrived, hence had to show my Covid passport. Then a typical Spanish debate started between the bar owner and the Police - lots of arm waving and lots of volume. One of the tables had more than 10 people at it - 12.

Bar owner fined. People at that table fined. Music stopped.
		
Click to expand...

Is it still policy that the Police collect the fine on the spot? Also do they keep a percentage of the fines issued? 
They Spanish police do seem extremely zealous but I suppose they were a dictatorship until 1975 so maybe people expect it?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 24, 2021)

UK now has the second highest booster rollout in the world behind Chile with 45.2% of the population tripple jabbed


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## Billysboots (Dec 24, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			UK now has the second highest booster rollout in the world behind Chile with 45.2% of the population tripple jabbed 

Click to expand...

A fantastic effort but the local variations are telling. I have family in Leicestershire and they tell me the vaccine take up in Leicester itself is shameful, one of the lowest rates in the U.K.

No surprise, really, that the city faced longer in lockdown than most, which the residents were furious about, blaming the government, the mayor, China - you name it, it was everything and everybody’s fault but their own. 

Perhaps they want to start looking in the mirror at their own behaviour.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			A fantastic effort but the local variations are telling. I have family in Leicestershire and they tell me the vaccine take up in Leicester itself is shameful, one of the lowest rates in the U.K.

No surprise, really, that the city faced longer in lockdown than most, which the residents were furious about, blaming the government, the mayor, China - you name it, it was everything and everybody’s fault but their own.

*Perhaps they want to start looking in the mirror at their own behaviour.*

Click to expand...

Nah, it’s easier to blame someone else ☹️


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			A fantastic effort but the local variations are telling. I have family in Leicestershire and they tell me the vaccine take up in Leicester itself is shameful, one of the lowest rates in the U.K.

No surprise, really, that the city faced longer in lockdown than most, which the residents were furious about, blaming the government, the mayor, China - you name it, it was everything and everybody’s fault but their own.

Perhaps they want to start looking in the mirror at their own behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

Same around here 

The take up on vaccines in the Luton/Bedford area I believe is below 30%


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Same around here

The take up on vaccines in the Luton/Bedford area I believe is below 30%
		
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Similar in Newham and Tower Hamlets, I guess the Asian communities never got over their initial distrust of it?


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## GB72 (Dec 24, 2021)

Seriously thinking of insisting on seeing a covid passport before anyone is allowed in my garage bar😁😁😁😁


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Similar in Newham and Tower Hamlets, I guess the Asian communities never got over their initial distrust of it?
		
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👍 and yet these are the stats so why would they have a distrust. 

During the first wave of the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic (24 January 2020 to 11 September 2020), people from all ethnic minority groups (except for women in the Chinese or "White Other" ethnic groups) had higher rates of death involving the coronavirus compared with the White British population.
The rate of death involving COVID-19 was highest for the Black African group (3.7 times greater than for the White British group for males, and 2.6 greater for females), followed by the Bangladeshi (3.0 for males, 1.9 for females), Black Caribbean (2.7 for males, 1.8 for females) and Pakistani (2.2 for males, 2.0 for females) ethnic groups.
In the second wave of the pandemic (from 12 September 2020 onwards), the differences in COVID-19 mortality compared with the White British population increased for people of Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnic backgrounds; the Bangladeshi group had the highest rates, 5.0 and 4.1 times greater than for White British males and females respectively.


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## IanM (Dec 24, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			UK now has the second highest booster rollout in the world behind Chile with 45.2% of the population tripple jabbed 

Click to expand...

Bbc will be reporting that as "vaccine racism!"


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 24, 2021)

A week on and I’m still testing positive with my 4th lateral flow test this morning. Still don’t understand how or why my PCR test came back negative yesterday. 

Christmas ruined, and guess my flight back to the UK will have to be cancelled. 

Happy days!


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## Captainron (Dec 24, 2021)

Putting restrictions in place for the Omicron variant is ridiculous.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

backwoodsman said:



			You did say the other day that the Guardia were strict - goes to show a difference in enforcement where in one country the police authorities are actively involved, and in another they are not.. Out of interest only, which bar?
		
Click to expand...

Marcello’s, in the little plaza where Scotty‘s used to be.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Is it still policy that the Police collect the fine on the spot? Also do they keep a percentage of the fines issued?
They Spanish police do seem extremely zealous but I suppose they were a dictatorship until 1975 so maybe people expect it?
		
Click to expand...

You can pay on the spot or pay at the police station. The police only keep a percentage of certain fines. What you have to be very careful about is arguing on the spot. If you’ve got the wrong policeman he can increase the fine to €3001 - why the extra one, who knows. But you are permitted to contest the fine at the police station.


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## backwoodsman (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Marcello’s, in the little plaza where Scotty‘s used to be.
		
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Ah. Was recommended to us this time but only manage a look rather than a visit.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Putting restrictions in place for the Omicron variant is ridiculous.
		
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Because ?

Its like me saying.

Putting restrictions in place for the Omicron variant is brilliant. But not saying why?


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## D-S (Dec 24, 2021)




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## Foxholer (Dec 24, 2021)

Captainron said:



			Putting restrictions in place for the Omicron variant is ridiculous.
		
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While there's definite hope that the effects are 'milder', I don't believe it's yet the time to ease back on (or reconsider additional) restrictions.
Omicron does seem to be particularly prevalent in London. The graphs and numbers in this article show surprising increases in numbers in hospital in London area and certainly an overall increase in hospitalisation.

So not, yet, time to relax imo. But there MAY be hope - certainly less despair than if the numbers were for Delta cases. 

Hoping all stay safe over Christmas!


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## Leftitshort (Dec 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I agree. The current restrictions are very minor and only people who want to be riled by them will be. But there are a few such people around, including here.
		
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That maybe the case. However, there seems to a reluctance to recognise that these restrictions, whilst minor to some, are impactful to others.
If you have to self isolate I suspect you would get more than the £95 per week statutory sick pay?
It’s fine bemoaning lack of compliance in some areas, but you’ll have to recognise the impact of the restrictions isn’t shared equitably.
If you can’t work from home, are a symptomatic & can’t pay your mortgage on £95 per week, what do you suggest?
edit - my mistake it’s £96.35 per week


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## Billysboots (Dec 24, 2021)

D-S said:



View attachment 40109

Click to expand...

A mere 40% of eligible adults have had two jabs in Leicester. It must be enormously frustrating for the local NHS and residents who _have_ taken steps to protect themselves and others. The lack of personal responsibility is staggering.


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			That maybe the case. However, there seems to a reluctance to recognise that these restrictions, whilst minor to some, are impactful to others.
If you have to self isolate I suspect you would get more than the £95 per week statutory sick pay?
It’s fine bemoaning lack of compliance in some areas, but you’ll have to recognise the impact of the restrictions isn’t shared equitably.
If you can’t work from home, are a symptomatic & can’t pay your mortgage on £95 per week, what do you suggest?
edit - my mistake it’s £96.35 per week
		
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree that people required to self-isolate should be properly compensated, but the need to self-isolate has reduced quite a bit for the vaxxed.


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2021)

SAGE minutes 23/12/21

Some interesting comments. 

They note that Omicron has lower intrinsic severity (i.e. in a head to head versus delta, it is less severe) and that the effect is further blunted by community immunity through vax or prior infection (realised severiity), but that Omicron will infect people that would not be infected by Delta.


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## Leftitshort (Dec 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I absolutely agree that people required to self-isolate should be properly compensated, but the need to self-isolate has reduced quite a bit for the vaxxed.
		
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Another issue is the Victorian employment policies some companies still have. I’ve been ‘lucky’. Isolated twice but can work from home. Some of my more ‘customer’ facing colleagues have had to isolate on govt statutory. For a multi million pound t/o company, it poor IMO. 
Seems to be industry wide however, I suspect people will consider the small print on the their next contract.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 24, 2021)




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## IanM (Dec 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



View attachment 40110

Click to expand...

Now you tell me!


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## Leftitshort (Dec 24, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



View attachment 40110

Click to expand...

my youngest tried to do that a couple of weeks ago. 2 of his mates were +, he tested negative but filled the line in pen. it looked like a tye dye t shirt after about 2 mins !!


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## chrisd (Dec 24, 2021)

Waiting for son, daughter in law and the 3 grandchildren to arrive only to get phone call that daughter in laws brother, child minded the kids last night, and this morning he and all his family test positive  😣😣


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			my youngest tried to do that a couple of weeks ago. 2 of his mates were +, he tested negative but filled the line in pen. it looked like a tye dye t shirt after about 2 mins !!
		
Click to expand...

My Grandkids (<10) pinched my red  'golf' sharpy and used it on their lateral flow tests at end of half term  !


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## road2ruin (Dec 24, 2021)

I mentioned a few months back that I felt our strategy of concentrating on vaccinating absolutely everyone outside of the vulnerable and heading down the ages towards 5 years plus wasn't correct and we needed to use those vaccines in countries that didn't have the vaccines to use themselves. I was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a supply issue however the WHO have come out today and said that countries such as ours, Israel and Germany are just prolonging the pandemic by taking a very insular view rather than looking around the world. Third world countries aren't being given enough vaccines and we're sitting here already planning on vaccinating 5 years old and offering a 4th jab in 3 months time.

Hasn't the Omicron variant taught us that we cannot keep anything out and with poorer countries whose vaccination rates are circa 10% of their populations the chances of another variant is increasingly high and it will be heading our way. In my opinion scrap plans to vaccinate the young and with present natural/vaccine immunity don't waste a 4th wave of jabs on those under 50 years or so. Protect the vulnerable but also take the world view and get everyone else up to our level otherwise the next variant could be worse and set us right back.

EDIT - There does appear to be a counter argument to this that vaccine hesitancy is off the scale in some of there countries due to a lack of trust in the government etc so it wouldn’t matter how many vaccines you give them, they’d be wasted anyway 🤷‍♂️


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I mentioned a few months back that I felt our strategy of concentrating on vaccinating absolutely everyone outside of the vulnerable and heading down the ages towards 5 years plus wasn't correct and we needed to use those vaccines in countries that didn't have the vaccines to use themselves. I was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a supply issue however the WHO have come out today and said that countries such as ours, Israel and Germany are just prolonging the pandemic by taking a very insular view rather than looking around the world. Third world countries aren't being given enough vaccines and we're sitting here already planning on vaccinating 5 years old and offering a 4th jab in 3 months time.

Hasn't the Omicron variant taught us that we cannot keep anything out and with poorer countries whose vaccination rates are circa 10% of their populations the chances of another variant is increasingly high and it will be heading our way. In my opinion scrap plans to vaccinate the young and with present natural/vaccine immunity don't waste a 4th wave of jabs on those under 50 years or so. Protect the vulnerable but also take the world view and get everyone else up to our level otherwise the next variant could be worse and set us right back.

EDIT - There does appear to be a counter argument to this that vaccine hesitancy is off the scale in some of there countries due to a lack of trust in the government etc so it wouldn’t matter how many vaccines you give them, they’d be wasted anyway 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Reading some of the comments on here today regarding the vaccine uptake by some ethnic groups in this country, your last paragraph will most likely be correct.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



SAGE minutes 23/12/21

Some interesting comments. 

They note that Omicron has lower intrinsic severity (i.e. in a head to head versus delta, it is less severe) and that the effect is further blunted by community immunity through vax or prior infection (realised severiity), but that Omicron will infect people that would not be infected by Delta.
		
Click to expand...

Why would someone not be infected by Delta, or is it astter of Omicron needing a smaller viral load to infect?


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Reading some of the comments on here today regarding the vaccine uptake by some ethnic groups in this country, your last paragraph will most likely be correct.
		
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The major issue in 3rd world countries has unfortunately been lack of resources which has resulted in millions of doses going to waste.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			The major issue in 3rd world countries has unfortunately been lack of resources which has resulted in millions of doses going to waste.
		
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The previous poster was suggesting it was people not trusting the vaccine.


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			The previous poster was suggesting it was a lack of people trusting the vaccine.
		
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That was about trust by ethnic groups in this country, you seem to suggest that would be a problem in other countries, I just responding suggestino (through experience) that lack of take up elsewhere was more to do with resources.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2021)

Piece in the Times today by Sir Patrick Vallance…barely concealed anger at the way ‘reasonable worse case’ scenarios are presented by the usual suspects as ‘the science that is always wrong’.  When in fact a ‘reasonable worst case’ is but one modelled scenario across the spectrum of possible scenarios that is provided to Sage for consideration along with input from behavioural science, immunology, virology, and from scientists across the world and input to government policy making.  

He writes…”It is not the job of Sage to take a particular policy stance or to either spread gloom or give Panglossian optimism”.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Piece in the Times today by Sir Patrick Vallance…barely concealed anger at the way ‘reasonable worse case’ scenarios are presented by the usual suspects as ‘the science that is always wrong’.  When in fact a ‘reasonable worst case’ is but one modelled scenario across the spectrum of possible scenarios that is provided to Sage for consideration along with input from behavioural science, immunology, virology, and from scientists across the world and input to government policy making. 

He writes…”It is not the job of Sage to take a particular policy stance or to either spread gloom or give Panglossian optimism”.
		
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And this affects you in what way? What aspect dictates your way of life and what irks you about it?


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Why would someone not be infected by Delta, or is it astter of Omicron needing a smaller viral load to infect?
		
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Other work suggests it is to do with how Omicron enters cells more easily. Viruses usually bind to a receptor that is already on the cell and then enter. Omicron appears to have a greater ability to do so. So its transmissibility isn't that it flies through the air better, or survives better on door handles or whatever, it is that contact with a case and exposure to the virus is just more likely to infect you, and that in turn leads to faster spread.


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## Ethan (Dec 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Piece in the Times today by Sir Patrick Vallance…barely concealed anger at the way ‘reasonable worse case’ scenarios are presented by the usual suspects as ‘the science that is always wrong’.  When in fact a ‘reasonable worst case’ is but one modelled scenario across the spectrum of possible scenarios that is provided to Sage for consideration along with input from behavioural science, immunology, virology, and from scientists across the world and input to government policy making.

He writes…”It is not the job of Sage to take a particular policy stance or to either spread gloom or give Panglossian optimism”.
		
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I am not Vallance's biggest fan, but he is right. The hysterical reaction to some of SAGE's comments by some commentators who reject any view they don't like as political, biased or scaremongering, and some have even more paranoid delusional frameworks.

It should not need spelt out, although sadly it clearly does, that reasonable worst case scenarios are the proper starting position for planning responses to threats, and the breezy idea of "balance" only shows that the critics don't really understand the effect of getting it wrong, even by a little. Or worse still, they don't really care.


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## williamalex1 (Dec 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			Waiting for son, daughter in law and the 3 grandchildren to arrive only to get phone call that daughter in laws brother, child minded the kids last night, and this morning he and all his family test positive  😣😣
		
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Disappointing not seeing the family, but maybe it's a stitch in time or a blessing in disguise, have a quiet Merry Xmas


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## chrisd (Dec 24, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Disappointing not seeing the family, but maybe it's a stitch in time or a blessing in disguise, have a quiet Merry Xmas 

Click to expand...

Cheers for that, and you're quite right

Have a great one too 😁


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## chrisd (Dec 24, 2021)

I think that the two numbers that the news should give out each day is 

How many people are in hospital with Covid

How many of those in hospital have not been jabbed at all


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## road2ruin (Dec 24, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am not Vallance's biggest fan, but he is right. The hysterical reaction to some of SAGE's comments by some commentators who reject any view they don't like as political, biased or scaremongering, and some have even more paranoid delusional frameworks.

It should not need spelt out, although sadly it clearly does, that reasonable worst case scenarios are the proper starting position for planning responses to threats, and the breezy idea of "balance" only shows that the critics don't really understand the effect of getting it wrong, even by a little. Or worse still, they don't really care.
		
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As I said previously, they should never have been given a public platform. They should have been a ‘seen and not heard’ type body who feed into the Government who then use that info along with the CMO’s etc to decide a path forward. Instead they live the fact that their models are on the front page of the Mail etc and it’s probably done more harm than good with the resultant scepticism.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2021)

How has it affected you Tash.
It has officially and royally screwed up Xmas for the second year running. Covid 2 - Tash 0 Same with Missis Tash except she thinks it Covid 3 Missis T 0

Merry Xmas everyone.


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## drdel (Dec 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			As I said previously, they should never have been given a public platform. They should have been a ‘seen and not heard’ type body who feed into the Government who then use that info along with the CMO’s etc to decide a path forward. Instead they live the fact that their models are on the front page of the Mail etc and it’s probably done more harm than good with the resultant scepticism.
		
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It is an attempt to keep Public Health advice away from politics.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			And this affects you in what way? What aspect dictates your way of life and what irks you about it?
		
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Because the decisions that the government make could have a not insignificant impact on the care my BiL will receive in the NHS over the coming days, weeks and months.  He was yesterday admitted into hospital with a life limiting condition.  If the NHS starts keeling over due to load on it or staff illness our lives could be very significantly affected.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the decisions that the government make could have a not insignificant impact on the care my BiL will receive in the NHS over the coming days, weeks and months.  He was yesterday admitted into hospital with a life limiting condition.  If the NHS starts keeling over due to load on it or staff illness our lives could be very significantly affected.
		
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Surely operating under a worst case scenario, as many fear the govt are doing, means that anything less is worse not better. One thing no one can say is that the govt has had a rose tinted view of what’s going on.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

chrisd said:



			I think that the two numbers that the news should give out each day is

How many people are in hospital with Covid

How many of those in hospital have not been jabbed at all
		
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I think your first question should be “How many people are in hospital *because* of Covid”

Everyone who is admitted to hospital has to have a Covid test, how many asymptomatic positives are pushing the “with Covid” figure up.

100% agree with the 2nd question, this is the figure they should be shouting from the rooftops.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I think your first question should be “How many people are in hospital *because* of Covid”

Everyone who is admitted to hospital has to have a Covid test, how many asymptomatic positives are pushing the “with Covid” figure up.

100% agree with the 2nd question, this is the figure they should be shouting from the rooftops.
		
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printed the second figure on a daily basis would only antagonise as opposed to anything else


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			printed the second figure on a daily basis would only antagonise as opposed to anything else
		
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Maybe, but I think the spotlight should be shone onto the sector of society that are causing a disproportionate burden on the NHS. Let’s stop tip toeing around and have it out there.


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## Captainron (Dec 24, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Because ?

Its like me saying.

Putting restrictions in place for the Omicron variant is brilliant. But not saying why?
		
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based on all the evidence from South Africa where this came from which shows that this is a very weak version despite it acting rapidly. Even the British scientists are not that concerned


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe, but I think the spotlight should be shone onto the sector of society that are causing a disproportionate burden on the NHS. Let’s stop tip toeing around and have it out there.
		
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There is enough angst as it is over it all - the vaccine doesn’t stop people getting the virus and the NHS’s main issue right now is staff from rhe NHS getting the virus and having to self isolate - the level on hospital etc isn’t the issue


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## road2ruin (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I think your first question should be “How many people are in hospital *because* of Covid”

Everyone who is admitted to hospital has to have a Covid test, *how many asymptomatic positives* are pushing the “with Covid” figure up.
		
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About 30% is the accepted number give or take.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			About 30% is the accepted number give or take.
		
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That’s why we need the figure of people hospitalised because of Covid. I read somewhere that at the moment Covid is accounting for about 2% of the NHS capacity. (Might have been on Facebook though!😳)


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Maybe, but I think the spotlight should be shone onto the sector of society that are causing a disproportionate burden on the NHS. Let’s stop tip toeing around and have it out there.
		
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And then do what?


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			That’s why we need the figure of people hospitalised because of Covid. I read somewhere that at the moment Covid is accounting for about 2% of the NHS capacity. (Might have been on Facebook though!😳)
		
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7.16%, not 2%. Edit… that’s 7.16% of those with Covid. How it affect capacity I don’t know.


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## bobmac (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is enough angst as it is over it all - the vaccine doesn’t stop people getting the virus and the NHS’s main issue right now is staff from rhe NHS getting the virus and having to self isolate - the level on hospital etc isn’t the issue
		
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If everyone was vaccinated there would be virtually no Covid admissions


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Surely operating under a worst case scenario, as many fear the govt are doing, means that anything less is worse not better. One thing no one can say is that the govt has had a rose tinted view of what’s going on.
		
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Absolutely…but IMO there are far too many inside and outside of government and Parliament - mostly with as much understanding as I of what the scientists are actually providing, trying to influence government policy by throwing ordure the way of the scientific community, as if it were that community determining policy - and it is not.  And unfortunately there is much pressure on the government to form policy that may not actually be in the very best interests of public health by those same people who are casting aspersions and doubt on the input to Sage from the scientific community - because it suits their agenda.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			If everyone was vaccinated there would be virtually no Covid admissions
		
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That’s quite a claim 

So how come there are people in hospital with Covid that have been vaccinated


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Correct…but IMO there are far too many inside and outside of government and Parliament - mostly with as much understanding as I of what the scientists are actually providing, trying to influence government policy by throwing ordure the way of the scientific community, as if it were that community determining policy - and it is not.
		
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Aren’t we getting too close to discussing politics here?

In my opinion, only hindsight proves the case either way, and even then there not much difference in the directions chosen. Those that rant either way are, in the main, ranting for ranking’s sake.


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## IanM (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Aren’t we getting too close to discussing politics here?

In my opinion, only hindsight proves the case either way, and even then there not much difference.
		
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Close? No.  Its precisely that in many posts.

Hindsight?  That's Keith Starmer's policy!  Oooops, there I go, joining in with the politics.


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## bobmac (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s quite a claim

So how come there are people in hospital with Covid that have been vaccinated
		
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I suggest you look up the meaning of ''virtually''


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Aren’t we getting too close to discussing politics here?

In my opinion, only hindsight proves the case either way, and even then there not much difference in the directions chosen. Those that rant either way are, in the main, ranting for ranking’s sake.
		
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Yes - it is unfortunate that government involves political parties.  But let’s just say I am not criticising government,  rather my ire is directed towards those inside and outside of parliament who cherry pick the worst case scenarios in their attempts to undermine the scientific community to justify and embellish their positions and the pressure they are exerting on government policy.

I had determined to not comment on this thread (for a variety of reasons) but my experience of the last week, and having sat in a hospital car park much of today being unable to support my wife visiting her brother..and neither can my MiL visit as she cannot visit by herself and is also too vulnerable, has prompted me to let off steam.

As a (very important) aside.  The service provided by my BiLs GP and GP practice has been exemplary, absolutely wonderful, as had the coordination of the GP with the local general hospital and the speed at which he has been admitted and is now being assessed.

And with that I will once more drop out of this.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s quite a claim

So how come there are people in hospital with Covid that have been vaccinated
		
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Some people react strongly to a vaccine and develop strong antibodies, other don’t. And then there’s every reaction in between. Some people come into contact with someone with a massive viral load, and others carrying a sniffle. There’s a ton of variables.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I suggest you look up the meaning of ''virtually''
		
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🙄

So it’s just a ridiculous statement that by putting “virtually” allows you to back pedal 

if everyone was vaccinated we would still have people in hospital and people still dying - the levels will be reduced 

But it’s not “virtually” zero 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			And then do what?
		
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Hopefully shame them into getting the vax? 



Hobbit said:



			7.16%, not 2%. Edit… that’s 7.16% of those with Covid. How it affect capacity I don’t know.
		
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Where did you get them figures? Not being funny I just couldn’t find them.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Where did you get them figures? Not being funny I just couldn’t find them.
		
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The ONS site. I typed “percentage of those with covid hospitalised.”


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Some people react strongly to a vaccine and develop strong antibodies, other don’t. And then there’s every reaction in between. Some people come into contact with someone with a massive viral load, and others carrying a sniffle. There’s a ton of variables.
		
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Exactly - the vaccine will help and reduce but it’s not going to totally remove the virus


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## road2ruin (Dec 24, 2021)

Kaz said:



			That's an appallingly stupid idea.
		
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Insightful.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The ONS site. I typed “percentage of those with covid hospitalised.”
		
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Did that and found nothing relevant or recent. 🤔


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2021)

Captainron said:



			based on all the evidence from South Africa where this came from which shows that this is a very weak version despite it acting rapidly. Even the British scientists are not that concerned
		
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That’s correct. But your initial post was putting restrictions in place for the omicron virus is a waste of time. Omicron is not the only virus out there, in fact it has just said on the news that some of the people in hospital have Delta so how exactly do you put restrictions in place for one variant but not the other 🤔


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Did that and found nothing relevant or recent. 🤔
	View attachment 40116

Click to expand...

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...es/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals


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## bobmac (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🙄

So it’s just a ridiculous statement that by putting “virtually” allows you to back pedal

if everyone was vaccinated we would still have people in hospital and people still dying - the levels will be reduced

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

Click to expand...


Vaccine breakthrough infections are expected. COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing most infections. However, like other vaccines, *they are not 100% effective*.
Fully vaccinated people with a vaccine breakthrough infection are *less likely to develop serious illness* than those who are unvaccinated and get COVID-19.
Even when fully vaccinated people develop symptoms, they tend to be *less severe symptoms than in unvaccinated people*. This means they are *much less likely to be hospitalized or die than people who are not vaccinated.*
*https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html
*
In other words, vaccinated people are much less likely to become hospitalized and infect nurses who would then have to isolate and miss work.
Therefor, the more vaccinated people, the less nurses have to miss work.

11 months ago when very few had the vaccine, there were 30,004 cases. 610 deaths. 4077 in ICU
The most recent figures show 122,186 cases, 137 deaths. 842 in ICU
The vaccines work.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 24, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely…but IMO there are far too many inside and outside of government and Parliament - mostly with as much understanding as I of what the scientists are actually providing, trying to influence government policy by throwing ordure the way of the scientific community, as if it were that community determining policy - and it is not.  And unfortunately there is much pressure on the government to form policy that may not actually be in the very best interests of public health by those same people who are casting aspersions and doubt on the input to Sage from the scientific community - because it suits their agenda.
		
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H, everyone, everyone by now knows roughly what the government wants you to do to prevent spread of this virus. Ok, so they haven't passed into law the measures they are suggesting, but you and I know that even if they did, a significant number would ignore the government edicts and carry on doing what they want.
It's a no brainier what to do to stop spreading the virus.
Part of which is to get vaccinated. We have seen the demographic of those that won't.
When are you going to accept that it is down to individual responsibilities , and not government rules that will determine the virus spread.
Throughout your posts you have apparently waited upon the government to determine yours or others actions . You know what's safe. So do others.
It's down to them.
"Horses" "water" "drink"😀


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

bobmac said:




Vaccine breakthrough infections are expected. COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing most infections. However, like other vaccines, *they are not 100% effective*.
Fully vaccinated people with a vaccine breakthrough infection are *less likely to develop serious illness* than those who are unvaccinated and get COVID-19.
Even when fully vaccinated people develop symptoms, they tend to be *less severe symptoms than in unvaccinated people*. This means they are *much less likely to be hospitalized or die than people who are not vaccinated.*
*https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html*

In other words, vaccinated people are much less likely to become hospitalized and infect nurses who would then have to isolate and miss work.
Therefor, the more vaccinated people, the less nurses have to miss work.

11 months ago when very few had the vaccine, there were 30,004 cases. 610 deaths. 4077 in ICU
The most recent figures show 122,186 cases, 137 deaths. 842 in ICU
The vaccines work.
		
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🤦‍♂️

But it’s still not “virtually no Covid” admissions as you stated which was the point


bobmac said:



			If everyone was vaccinated there would be virtually no Covid admissions
		
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Even with the vaccine nHS staff are going to catch the virus and they are going to have to isolate and put a strain on the services.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s quite a claim 

So how come there are people in hospital with Covid that have been vaccinated
		
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Spot the word ," virtually"😀


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

Hobbit said:



https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...es/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals

Click to expand...

M
Thanks, it’s as I thought though “*Overall COVID-19-positive hospital admission rates”*

so that with rather than because.

Also it reads 7.16 per 100000 people not 7.16% so I’m still not sure of the figure.


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## bobmac (Dec 24, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			🤦‍♂️

But it’s still not “virtually no Covid” admissions as you stated which was the point


Even with the vaccine nHS staff are going to catch the virus and they are going to have to isolate and put a strain on the services.
		
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Do you accept that nurses are more likely to catch the virus from unvaccinated patients than from the vaccinated patients, bearing in mind that vaccinated people will be much less likely to be hospitalized in the first place?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 24, 2021)

What I cannot get my head around is folk want a relaxation of the rules. Yet countries in the EU are saying that they do not want people to travel from the UK, period. That for me is a damning statement to make. 
I have said it before and I will say it again. Me I am vaxed up to the eyeballs but still have COVID. If you do not want any vaccines, that is your right. But there is no way you will be able to travel abroad as other countries will not accept you. Your right to not want a vaccine unfortunately will come at a cost.And not just to yourself.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Do you accept that nurses are more likely to catch the virus from unvaccinated patients than from the vaccinated patients, bearing in mind that vaccinated people will be much less likely to be hospitalized in the first place?
		
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I think you might be wrong there Bob. Last I saw 2/3 of those hospitalised have been vaccinated. On the surface that looks skewed but if you consider there’s more people vaccinated than unvaccinated then it’s possible for more vaccinated to be in hospital. As we know, being vaccinated doesn’t guarantee immunity ergo you could still end up in hospital.

Its playing with numbers and the variables. For example, a 90 year old who doesn’t react to the vaccination will almost certainly end up in hospital if they get it. A 40 year old, even unvaccinated, might just feel rough. Again, playing with numbers one hundred 40 year olds might get it and 2 might end up in hospital. Four vaccinated 90 year olds might get it, and all 4 might end up in hospital because of age an infirmity and a weaker response to the vaccine.


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## IainP (Dec 24, 2021)

Not jumping into the back n forth, for a slight change of tack, some other stats from the US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59757395


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Do you accept that nurses are more likely to catch the virus from unvaccinated patients than from the vaccinated patients, bearing in mind that vaccinated people will be much less likely to be hospitalized in the first place?
		
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It’s not as black and white - there are a lot of variables 

Right now there are more people who are hospitalised who are also vaccinated 

I believe it was about 70% 

The level of people vaccinated in the uk I believe is the second highest ( per person ) in the world - yet the cases continue to rise. Those cases aren’t rising because enough people don’t have the vaccine.


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## IanM (Dec 24, 2021)

In my days with a large Fin Services Co, I used to argue constantly with my counterpart in Estates (Bogs n' Buffets as I called them) about trusting folk to be sensible.  He was always sticking yellow and black tape round things and holding training courses on how not to kill yourself while sitting at a desk!!  

_Folk can't be trusted to do what is sensible _he said... I used to reply "you have to treat folk like gown ups!"

Covid has proven him right and me very wrong.... *Shriggers old mate, I owe you a beer.  Several in fact. *


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## SocketRocket (Dec 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			That was about trust by ethnic groups in this country, you seem to suggest that would be a problem in other countries, I just responding suggestino (through experience) that lack of take up elsewhere was more to do with resources.
		
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He said:
"EDIT - There does appear to be a counter argument to this that vaccine hesitancy is off the scale in some of there countries due to a lack of trust in the government etc so it wouldn’t matter how many vaccines you give them, they’d be wasted anyway 🤷‍♂️"


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## Captainron (Dec 24, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That’s correct. But your initial post was putting restrictions in place for the omicron virus is a waste of time. Omicron is not the only virus out there, in fact it has just said on the news that some of the people in hospital have Delta so how exactly do you put restrictions in place for one variant but not the other 🤔
		
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The whole change in attitude comes from the emergence of the Omicron variant and has nothing to do with the Delta. 

I’d not bother to restrict at all. Get on with life.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 24, 2021)

IainP said:



			Not jumping into the back n forth, for a slight change of tack, some other stats from the US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59757395

Click to expand...

Wow it’s really become political in the states. Republican anti vax, Democrats pro vax. How strange! 

Can’t say it’s that sort of divide over here. Mind you I saw a very funny thing on FB saying how Boris had actually United the country in a way he could never imagine but it would be far to political. 😉


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## road2ruin (Dec 24, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Thought I was stating the obvious but lets keep it general enough to stay within the rules....

We need people to follow the public health guidelines but people don't trust politicians because they tend to be "economical with the truth". We don't follow them blindly. Hence the message has to come from or at least be supported by experts.
		
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You honestly think people will follow guidelines if they’re told they’ll be 1m cases a day with 20,000 deaths etc etc? Had the info been moderated slightly and given out by Chris Whitty etc you’d have got more but in. Instead people see the name ‘Ferguson’ and stop listening immediately, they just switch off.


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## IanM (Dec 24, 2021)

I wonder if the BBC have had a role in this?


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

Triple jabbed.... Lateral flow test this morning and I'm positive, been waiting for PCR results to come back for 3 days now as I suspected I had it.

Merry Christmas X


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 25, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s not as black and white - there are a lot of variables 

Right now there are more people who are hospitalised who are also vaccinated 

I believe it was about 70% 

The level of people vaccinated in the uk I believe is the second highest ( per person ) in the world - yet the cases continue to rise. Those cases aren’t rising because enough people don’t have the vaccine.
		
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There are some claims being made here , contrary to what I have seen some Drs and scientists saying on tv. 
70% hospitalised are vaccinated?  . Hobbit saying two thirds of hospitalised are vaccinated?  Where is the source for this?
If true, the vaccine isn't working as claimed. But I believe it is.
I must say I was a little stunned when I read these claims by Phil and Hobbit.


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## road2ruin (Dec 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There are some claims being made here , contrary to what I have seen some Drs and scientists saying on tv.
70% hospitalised are vaccinated?  . Hobbit saying two thirds of hospitalised are vaccinated?  Where is the source for this?
If true, the vaccine isn't working as claimed. But I believe it is.
I must say I was a little stunned when I read these claims by Phil and Hobbit.
		
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The vaccines offer substantial protection but they’re not perfect and some will still be admitted, given the vast majority of the population are jabbed it probably still stands to reason that they’ll make up a considerable number of admissions.


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There are some claims being made here , contrary to what I have seen some Drs and scientists saying on tv.
70% hospitalised are vaccinated?  . Hobbit saying two thirds of hospitalised are vaccinated?  Where is the source for this?
If true, the vaccine isn't working as claimed. But I believe it is.
I must say I was a little stunned when I read these claims by Phil and Hobbit.
		
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I was reading yesterday on fact checker that 36% of hospitalisations are unvaccinated with the other 64% being jabbed people..... But as with all stats I take it with a pinch of salt, as no matter what they're reporting there is always an angle.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2021)

Where are these vaccinated people catching the virus from?


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where are these vaccinated people catching the virus from?
		
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Could be anyone. We all know that being 3 X jabbed doesn't stop you catching or spreading, just reduces some risk.


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## D-S (Dec 25, 2021)

\
London Hospital data, despite many more beds being occupied due to Covid the number on Mechanical Ventilator remains constant if not slightly dropping.


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## road2ruin (Dec 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where are these vaccinated people catching the virus from?
		
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Anyone with the virus 🤷‍♂️


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## Hobbit (Dec 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There are some claims being made here , contrary to what I have seen some Drs and scientists saying on tv.
70% hospitalised are vaccinated?  . Hobbit saying two thirds of hospitalised are vaccinated?  Where is the source for this?
If true, the vaccine isn't working as claimed. But I believe it is.
I must say I was a little stunned when I read these claims by Phil and Hobbit.
		
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I‘ve not hunted out the link but if you read my reply to Bob it’s a numbers thing. Picking daft numbers to illustrate the point, 0.5%(vaccinated) of 60,000,000 is a large number compared to 40%(unvaccinated) of 10,000. In effect, the vaccine has ‘saved’ 39.5%, ergo it’s worked. A bit of a simplistic reply but… it’s Christmas Day.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			Could be anyone. We all know that being 3 X jabbed doesn't stop you catching or spreading, just reduces some risk.
		
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So what are the chances of a double vaccinated and boosted person catching the virus from another double vaccinated and boosted person and ending up in hospital?


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## theoneandonly (Dec 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There are some claims being made here , contrary to what I have seen some Drs and scientists saying on tv.
70% hospitalised are vaccinated?  . Hobbit saying two thirds of hospitalised are vaccinated?  Where is the source for this?
If true, the vaccine isn't working as claimed. But I believe it is.
I must say I was a little stunned when I read these claims by Phil and Hobbit.
		
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It's just simple base rate fallacy and poor understanding of the data.


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## Imurg (Dec 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So what are the chances of a double vaccinated and boosted person catching the virus from another double vaccinated and boosted person and ending up in hospital?
		
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Small..but it's still there....


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Small..but it's still there....
		
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That's exactly it. I think we're being programmed to think that by being triple jabbed it nullifies catching/transmitting the virus and that simply isn't the case.... No jab is ever perfect and it only improves the chances of spreading less and having lesser symptoms, but there's plenty of proof just with a quick Google that jabbed households are spreading it amongst eachother.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Where are these vaccinated people catching the virus from?
		
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I caught it from my younger son who caught it at school. So it was given to me by an unvaccinated person - he's 10 so too young for the vaccine.


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## Hobbit (Dec 25, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			I caught it from my younger son who caught it at school. So it was given to me by an unvaccinated person - he's 10 so too young for the vaccine.
		
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They’re vaccinating down to 9 here.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			They’re vaccinating down to 9 here.
		
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Still 12+ here at the minute I think. Our 12 year old decided that he wanted to get his so he was done a couple of weeks before Xmas but not heard anything about them going younger than that so far.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Small..but it's still there....
		
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I agree, but the risk of catching the virus from an unvaccinated person and being hospitalized is much greater.


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

I tested positive this morning and so is my wife... I'm tripled jabbed, my wife is triple jabbed and I've been working from home this week so haven't been out since last Saturday when I played golf.


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			I agree, but the risk of catching the virus from an unvaccinated person and being hospitalized is much greater.
		
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I'm sorry but that's not the case. Who you catch it from doesn't make you more or less likely to be hospitalised..... Supposedly being unvaccinated makes you more likely to be hospitalised if you catch it versus a triple jabbed person .


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm sorry but that's not the case. Who you catch it from doesn't make you more or less likely to be hospitalised..... Supposedly being unvaccinated makes you more likely to be hospitalised if you catch it versus a triple jabbed person .
		
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Yes, true with the slight variation being( as I understand Ethan explained quite a while ago now), that catching the virus from an unvaccinated person is more likely to give you a bigger viral load?
Maybe  I misunderstood that, but that's how I took it.
However, Bob, being jabbed does not stop you being infected- it doesn't put a "force field" around you stopping the germs getting to you. 
So anyone infected can pass it on to anyone around them.
But when the germs do enter the respiratory tract of someone who has been jabbed,he has some means to fight those germs. A lot more than an unvaccinated person can do.


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## Hobbit (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm sorry but that's not the case. Who you catch it from doesn't make you more or less likely to be hospitalised..... Supposedly being unvaccinated makes you more likely to be hospitalised if you catch it versus a triple jabbed person .
		
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Mmm, we’re not experts and rely on what we read and how we, sometimes subconsciously, interpret it.

I’m inclined to disagree with your first point. It’s also about viral load. An unvaccinated person is more likely to carry/pass on a greater viral load.


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, we’re not experts and rely on what we read and how we, sometimes subconsciously, interpret it.

I’m inclined to disagree with your first point. It’s also about viral load. An unvaccinated person is more likely to carry/pass on a greater viral load.
		
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You could well be right, there's so much information overload at the moment it's difficult to know who/what to believe as the story changes depending on which expert you listen to.

Ive got an unvaccinated mate (who I've not seen for 18 months) who caught it 3 weeks ago, he said it was so mild he wouldn't have known he had it without the tests.

My current symptoms are less than a hangover, so pretty much following the route that it really does affect people differently person to person.


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## Hobbit (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			You could well be right, there's so much information overload at the moment it's difficult to know who/what to believe as the story changes depending on which expert you listen to.

Ive got an unvaccinated mate (who I've not seen for 18 months) who caught it 3 weeks ago, he said it was so mild he wouldn't have known he had it without the tests.

My current symptoms are less than a hangover, so pretty much following the route that it really doesn't affect people differently person to person.
		
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My cousin was tested on admission into A&E for fall. She died of Covid 2 days later. She didn’t even know she had it on the Monday but died of it on the Wednesday night. There doesn’t seem much rhyme nor reason but I’d rather err on the side of caution.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			Supposedly being unvaccinated makes you more likely to be hospitalised if you catch it versus a triple jabbed person .
		
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So a triple jabbed person is less likely to be hospitalised?



Swinglowandslow said:



			However, Bob, being jabbed does not stop you being infected- it doesn't put a "force field" around you stopping the germs getting to you.
		
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Funnily enough, I knew that.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 25, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			There are some claims being made here , contrary to what I have seen some Drs and scientists saying on tv.
*70% hospitalised are vaccinated*?  . Hobbit saying two thirds of hospitalised are vaccinated?  Where is the source for this?
If true, the vaccine isn't working as claimed. But I believe it is.
I must say I was a little stunned when I read these claims by Phil and Hobbit.
		
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Think elections; how does a party win an election when 60+% of the voters voted against them? 

Let's invent some numbers to try & make this clearer.  Take a population of 100 million, 90% of whom are fully vaccinated, the remaining 10% being completely unvaccinated.  And let's say we have 1 million in hospital.  And we'll use the 70% figure for vaccinated hospitalisations.

If 70% of the 1 million hospitalised patients are vaccinated, that's 700,000 out of the 90 million vaccinated population in hospital, or 0.78% of the vaccinated population.

The remaining 30% are unvaccinated, that's 300,000 out of 10 million, or 3% of the unvaccinated population.

So you're approximately 4 times more likely to be hospitalised if you are unvaccinated on a very simple scenario.

I believe you're right; the vaccine is working.

Factor in that the fully vaccinated are more likely to be older, so more likely to have underlying health conditions or simply more frail, I'd argue that the vaccine is helping them by reducing the severity of the virus.  Some of the vaccinated in hospital may not yet be fully vaccinated, whereas the unvaccinated are always fully unvaccinated.  And I'm sure there are many other metrics that will skew the figures in favour of it being safer to be vaccinated.


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## adam6177 (Dec 25, 2021)

bobmac said:



			So a triple jabbed person is less likely to be hospitalised?
.
		
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I'm just a guy on a forum.... I can only base my opinions from what I read that others say, the number 1 thing though is not to rely on 1 source.... ie I never take as gospel what I read on BBC or sky news as their reputation doesn't fill me with confidence.

But from what I was reading yesterday, 36% of covid hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.  64% of hospitalisations are jabbed.

So make of that what you want.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 25, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			My cousin was tested on admission into A&E for fall. She died of Covid 2 days later. She didn’t even know she had it on the Monday but died of it on the Wednesday night. There doesn’t seem much rhyme nor reason but I’d rather err on the side of caution.
		
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We are not letting MiL visit her lad in hospital…at 91 the truth is they’d probably not wish her to risk being there in any case…the hospital has closed all its restaurants and cafes to visitors - they are staff only.  Clearly they want to minimise  the exposure to the public of all nursing and medical staff to in turn minimise the risk of them picking up and taking virus infection back into the wards and teams.  How it is.  Bit difficult for my Mrs as she has to visit her brother alone and without my support, but more difficult for my MiL as she is so worried - but for the best.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm just a guy on a forum.... I can only base my opinions from what I read that others say, the number 1 thing though is not to rely on 1 source.... ie I never take as gospel what I read on BBC or sky news as their reputation doesn't fill me with confidence.

But from what I was reading yesterday, 36% of covid hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.  64% of hospitalisations are jabbed.

So *make of that what you want*.
		
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It's the antivaxxers goto stat of choice 😉


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## Fade and Die (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm just a guy on a forum.... I can only base my opinions from what I read that others say, the number 1 thing though is not to rely on 1 source.... ie I never take as gospel what I read on BBC or sky news as their reputation doesn't fill me with confidence.

But from what I was reading yesterday, 36% of covid hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.  64% of hospitalisations are jabbed.

So make of that what you want.
		
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There are so many other factors to consider, especially age. Almost all the jabbed will be old and vulnerable, majority of the Un-jabbed young and less vulnerable

This article in a less than unbiased website quotes a Public Health Scotland report but I think a lot of it is cherry picked to suit its agenda…….

https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/12/09/d...y-data-shows-9-in-10-covid-deaths-vaccinated/


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 25, 2021)

Mrs BiM tested positive on a LFT last Sunday.  PCR was ordered & posted back from a priority postbox on Tuesday.  Having had no result, she has rung them today.  Yes the test is in the system; no, we cannot tell you the result, we have to refer it to the investigation team who have 72 hours to respond.  AND IF YOUR TEST IS POSITIVE, YOUR 10 DAY ISOLATION PERIOD BEGINS FROM WHEN WE NOTIFY YOU OF THE RESULT!!!

How utterly ridiculous.  Since the positive LFT, Mrs BiM has lived in the bedroom, popping out only to shower & use the bathroom.  Meals have been delivered to the door.  And when she gets the result, which we can't think will be anything other than positive, she is then expected to start a further 10 day isolation period because of their incompetence?  What an absolute farce.


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## AmandaJR (Dec 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM tested positive on a LFT last Sunday.  PCR was ordered & posted back from a priority postbox on Tuesday.  Having had no result, she has rung them today.  Yes the test is in the system; no, we cannot tell you the result, we have to refer it to the investigation team who have 72 hours to respond.  AND IF YOUR TEST IS POSITIVE, YOUR 10 DAY ISOLATION PERIOD BEGINS FROM WHEN WE NOTIFY YOU OF THE RESULT!!!

How utterly ridiculous.  Since the positive LFT, Mrs BiM has lived in the bedroom, popping out only to shower & use the bathroom.  Meals have been delivered to the door.  And when she gets the result, which we can't think will be anything other than positive, she is then expected to start a further 10 day isolation period because of their incompetence?  What an absolute farce.
		
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In your shoes I'd be doing a LFT on day 6 and 7 and, if negative, re-entering the outside world. Surely it's from symptoms and/or positive LFT leading to a PCR rather than when you are informed of the latter's result. Crazy! Mind you when we had it last year David had the app and I didn't and his date of release from isolation was different to mine.


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## Ethan (Dec 25, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			I'm just a guy on a forum.... I can only base my opinions from what I read that others say, the number 1 thing though is not to rely on 1 source.... ie I never take as gospel what I read on BBC or sky news as their reputation doesn't fill me with confidence.

But from what I was reading yesterday, 36% of covid hospitalisations are unvaccinated people.  64% of hospitalisations are jabbed.

So make of that what you want.
		
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Well, this is what I would make of it:

64% (your figure, I didn't check) of hospitalisations come from 82.2% (latest gov.uk figure) of the population (those that have had 2 vax). Lets call that a ratio of 0.78
36% come from 17.8% (100 - above). ratio 2.02.

So you have a 2.02/0.78 = 2.6 x the chance of hospitalisation if you have not been vaxxed. 

And that is overlooking the fact that the vaccinated population is more likely to be older, at greater risk of being tipped over into an admission compared to the unvaccinated and younger people less likely to be admitted. The true underlying effect is probably more like 4 or 5:1. 

The margin is also wider for ICU admissions. 

You can choose to make something else, but it would be interesting if you told us what that was.


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## Ethan (Dec 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM tested positive on a LFT last Sunday.  PCR was ordered & posted back from a priority postbox on Tuesday.  Having had no result, she has rung them today.  Yes the test is in the system; no, we cannot tell you the result, we have to refer it to the investigation team who have 72 hours to respond.  AND IF YOUR TEST IS POSITIVE, YOUR 10 DAY ISOLATION PERIOD BEGINS FROM WHEN WE NOTIFY YOU OF THE RESULT!!!

How utterly ridiculous.  Since the positive LFT, Mrs BiM has lived in the bedroom, popping out only to shower & use the bathroom.  Meals have been delivered to the door.  And when she gets the result, which we can't think will be anything other than positive, she is then expected to start a further 10 day isolation period because of their incompetence?  What an absolute farce.
		
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Test and Trace reached agreement with Covid's agent that it would not start replicating or infecting anybody else until the result came back, to create a level playing field. 

The advice is wrong. The period begins from the first of the tests, in this case the LFT, and can be stopped after 7 days if 2 negative LFTs are obtained 24 hours apart on or after days 6 and 7 (which looks like tomorrow and next day), otherwise 10 days.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 25, 2021)

AmandaJR said:



			In your shoes I'd be doing a LFT on day 6 and 7 and, if negative, re-entering the outside world. Surely it's from symptoms and/or positive LFT leading to a PCR rather than when you are informed of the latter's result. Crazy! Mind you when we had it last year David had the app and I didn't and his date of release from isolation was different to mine.
		
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She is Amanda, but the woman on the phone, although admitting that Mrs BiM's argument made more sense, that being that the test result applies from the date the sample was taken, not the date the result is provided.  Unfortunately she is still testing positive but the line is getting fainter.

Bad enough spending Christmas Day apart in the same house, but if their rules do apply, by the time they get to tell us, a 10 day isolation period will rule her out of the home games against Brighton, Liverpool, Spurs & Chesterfield, and the New Year's Eve do at the golf club.  Happy New Year.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM tested positive on a LFT last Sunday.  PCR was ordered & posted back from a priority postbox on Tuesday.  Having had no result, she has rung them today.  Yes the test is in the system; no, we cannot tell you the result, we have to refer it to the investigation team who have 72 hours to respond.  *AND IF YOUR TEST IS POSITIVE, YOUR 10 DAY ISOLATION PERIOD BEGINS FROM WHEN WE NOTIFY YOU OF THE RESULT!!!*

How utterly ridiculous.  Since the positive LFT, Mrs BiM has lived in the bedroom, popping out only to shower & use the bathroom.  Meals have been delivered to the door.  And when she gets the result, which we can't think will be anything other than positive, she is then expected to start a further 10 day isolation period because of their incompetence?  What an absolute farce.
		
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RE: the bit in bold. I don't think they've got that correct. When I tested positive the isolation started from the day that symptoms began, which was the day before I took the PCR test. Government guidelines are from the day that symptoms started or from the day of the positive PCR test if you were asymptomatic. Assuming the test comes back positive then your other half tested positive on the day of the test not 5 days later when they give you the result.


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2021)

Cheerful on here today.

Once did a 4 week course on psychological warfare, reading this thread proved that it really works.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Test and Trace reached agreement with Covid's agent that it would not start replicating or infecting anybody else until the result came back, to create a level playing field.

The advice is wrong. The period begins from the first of the tests, in this case the LFT, and can be stopped after 7 days if 2 negative LFTs are obtained 24 hours apart on or after days 6 and 7 (which looks like tomorrow and next day), otherwise 10 days.
		
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Thank you Ethan.  I don't suppose you have an easy link to that to put her mind at rest?


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## Ethan (Dec 25, 2021)

Here

The call handler just got confused. Probably easy enough to do at £10 an hour and lots of calls to people who aren't happy to get them.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 25, 2021)

Ethan said:



Here

The call handler just got confused. Probably easy enough to do at £10 an hour and lots of calls to people who aren't happy to get them.
		
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Thanks again, that has just made Christmas Day a little easier.  Have a Merry Christmas & a happy New Year.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			She is Amanda, but the woman on the phone, although admitting that Mrs BiM's argument made more sense, that being that the test result applies from the date the sample was taken, not the date the result is provided.  Unfortunately she is still testing positive but the line is getting fainter.

Bad enough spending Christmas Day apart in the same house, but if their rules do apply, by the time they get to tell us, a 10 day isolation period will *rule her out of the home games against Brighton, Liverpool, Spurs & Chesterfield,* and the New Year's Eve do at the golf club.  Happy New Year.
		
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You have a big enough squad though surely? 😬

Seriously though what a clustercluck, and all for what? A mild variant that might actually help us to achieve herd immunity. We have avoided any testing as we don’t want to be in the same situation, selfish? maybe, but I honestly believe the reaction to omni is ott. Our friends daughter is eating her Christmas dinner in her bedroom whilst the rest of the family are downstairs! (They posted photos on FB of her on the iPad Zooming into the family dinner! Odd but they post everything!)

Christmas last year was bleak enough, this year we will all be together.

Hope you and your family manage to have some sort of Christmas together because what is Christmas if not for being with Loved ones?


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 25, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Think elections; how does a party win an election when 60+% of the voters voted against them? 

Let's invent some numbers to try & make this clearer.  Take a population of 100 million, 90% of whom are fully vaccinated, the remaining 10% being completely unvaccinated.  And let's say we have 1 million in hospital.  And we'll use the 70% figure for vaccinated hospitalisations.

If 70% of the 1 million hospitalised patients are vaccinated, that's 700,000 out of the 90 million vaccinated population in hospital, or 0.78% of the vaccinated population.

The remaining 30% are unvaccinated, that's 300,000 out of 10 million, or 3% of the unvaccinated population.

So you're approximately 4 times more likely to be hospitalised if you are unvaccinated on a very simple scenario.

I believe you're right; the vaccine is working.

Factor in that the fully vaccinated are more likely to be older, so more likely to have underlying health conditions or simply more frail, I'd argue that the vaccine is helping them by reducing the severity of the virus.  Some of the vaccinated in hospital may not yet be fully vaccinated, whereas the unvaccinated are always fully unvaccinated.  And I'm sure there are many other metrics that will skew the figures in favour of it being safer to be vaccinated.
		
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Yes, ok BIM.  But, on the basis that being vaccinated doesn't stop you getting infected., surely the figures that should be worked on are in respect of those who are infected. And not others. Populations not relevant, surely?
3 men walking down the street, a positive passer by sneezes near them.lets say one gets no germs anywhere near him, I,e not infected. The other two breath in the germs and become infected. One shows no symptoms , the other gets ill.
So, as to whether the vaccine is effective does not matter to the first one.
He doesn't come into the reckoning.

Therefore, the figures should relate to the infected.
Let's take a recent day's Covid figures then, 120,000 positive cases.
If they were all vaccinated, and if the vaccine was 100 per cent effective, none if those would be seriously ill.
( granted-some /most wouldn't get seriously ill anyway, if not vaccinated )
To the extent it is less than 100 per cent effective , then some would become seriously ill.
If only half were vaccinated, then even with a fully efffective vaccine, some would become ill- some of the unvaccinated.
I imagine the ill figures would rise in line with the vaccines inefficiency.

So, if the vaccine is very effective,  as they say it is, it still is a bit concerning, one might think,  to have a figure of two thirds of hospitalised being in the vaccinated category. It must be due to a combination of other factors, additional illnesses, immune problems , etc.
If unvaccinated,there would be more of those people in hospital?
The combinations must almost make the figures meaningless .
As Homer said, from what he saw, it suggests it's almost "luck of the draw"🤔


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## backwoodsman (Dec 25, 2021)

You've probably read it by now in from the link Ethan posted  - but the important bit in it, as far as Mrs BiM is concerned is . 

"Your isolation period starts immediately from when your symptoms started, or, if you do not have any symptoms, from *when your positive LFD or PCR test was taken, whichever test was taken first."*


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## DanFST (Dec 25, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			It's the antivaxxers goto stat of choice 😉
		
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And considering only 24% of the population are unvaccinated, it's a poor stat.

76% of the country taking up less space than a quarter


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## Tashyboy (Dec 26, 2021)

Day 3 or is it 4 of COVID, feel lethargic, had sore throat, cough has started even worse, nose running like a tap, but nasal Congestio.But no we’re near as worse as last year. Maybe I can thank the vaccine for that.
registered on the NHS app which gives a 10 day isolation countdown. I cannot be rrrsed at the moment to Think about LFT testing after day 6 and 7. Off for a olbas oil bath.
Another rubbish Christmas.


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## theoneandonly (Dec 26, 2021)

Son woke up feeling unwell and has done a positive lft. Just spent an hour in the car taking him for a PCR. I'll be putting my booster well and truly to the test.😅


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## Tashyboy (Dec 26, 2021)

Tash LFT positive.
Missis T LFT negative. Her LFT was negative on 23rd but her PCR positive. COVID moves in mysterious ways 😳


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 26, 2021)

Test & Trace have now contacted Mrs BiM.  They have taken the first day of the isolation as the PCR result rather than the LFT result of the 19th, thus ignoring 2 of the days she has already self isolated.  They have also disabled her Covid pass until midnight on the 31st of December.  Now it was questionable whether she wanted to go to the Brighton home game on the 29th, even though with two negative LFT's we believe she could.  But she would have served her 10 day self isolation in time for a much reduced numbers NYE bash at the golf club, but it looks like that option has been removed as well.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 26, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Test & Trace have now contacted Mrs BiM.  They have taken the first day of the isolation as the PCR result rather than the LFT result of the 19th, thus ignoring 2 of the days she has already self isolated.  They have also disabled her Covid pass until midnight on the 31st of December.  Now it was questionable whether she wanted to go to the Brighton home game on the 29th, even though with two negative LFT's we believe she could.  But she would have served her 10 day self isolation in time for a much reduced numbers NYE bash at the golf club, but it looks like that option has been removed as well.
		
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My lad ( today ) has rang 119 and spoken to someone directly. They have taken his first day of having COVID as a week last Saturday. Even though his LFT tests were negative. Why? Because that is when he had symptoms.which was why he had the LFT tests. The last two days he has tested negative so he has got out of the COVID jail.
My advise would be to ring 119.
I said yesterday that I couldn’t get my head around being informed that we are being told that 7 days after 2 negative LFT tests you can go out. But the NHS still says 10 days. Furthermore the LFT tests seem very hit and miss. EG, they do not pick up all COVID, but are used as A yardstick so you can get out of COVID Jail.
Ring 119 👍 and let us know how you get on.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 26, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			My lad ( today ) has rang 119 and spoken to someone directly. They have taken his first day of having COVID as a week last Saturday. Even though his LFT tests were negative. Why? Because that is when he had symptoms.which was why he had the LFT tests. The last two days he has tested negative so he has got out of the COVID jail.
My advise would be to ring 119.
I said yesterday that I couldn’t get my head around being informed that we are being told that 7 days after 2 negative LFT tests you can go out. But the NHS still says 10 days. Furthermore the LFT tests seem very hit and miss. EG, they do not pick up all COVID, but are used as A yardstick so you can get out of COVID Jail.
Ring 119 👍 and let us know how you get on.
		
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#23,776



Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM tested positive on a LFT last Sunday.  PCR was ordered & posted back from a priority postbox on Tuesday.  Having had no result, she has rung them today.  Yes the test is in the system; no, we cannot tell you the result, we have to refer it to the investigation team who have 72 hours to respond.  AND IF YOUR TEST IS POSITIVE, YOUR 10 DAY ISOLATION PERIOD BEGINS FROM WHEN WE NOTIFY YOU OF THE RESULT!!!

How utterly ridiculous.  Since the positive LFT, Mrs BiM has lived in the bedroom, popping out only to shower & use the bathroom.  Meals have been delivered to the door.  And when she gets the result, which we can't think will be anything other than positive, she is then expected to start a further 10 day isolation period because of their incompetence?  What an absolute farce.
		
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The following posts to that one will give you an idea why we won't be bothering to ring them.  We will look at the advice Ethan kindly linked us to & follow that.


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## Ethan (Dec 26, 2021)

Blue in Munich said:



			Test & Trace have now contacted Mrs BiM.  They have taken the first day of the isolation as the PCR result rather than the LFT result of the 19th, thus ignoring 2 of the days she has already self isolated.  They have also disabled her Covid pass until midnight on the 31st of December.  Now it was questionable whether she wanted to go to the Brighton home game on the 29th, even though with two negative LFT's we believe she could.  But she would have served her 10 day self isolation in time for a much reduced numbers NYE bash at the golf club, but it looks like that option has been removed as well.
		
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Well, they are getting closer but still not quite right. Both extracts copied from gov.uk, as linked above:

_1. If you are notified by NHS Test and Trace of a positive test result you must complete a period of self-isolation. Your isolation period starts immediately from when your symptoms started, or, if you do not have any symptoms, from when your positive LFD or PCR test was taken, *whichever test was taken first.* Your isolation period includes the day your symptoms started (or the day your test was taken if you do not have symptoms), and the next 10 full days._

_2. You may be able to end your self-isolation period before the end of the 10 full days. You can take an LFD test from 6 days after the day your symptoms started (or the day your test was taken if you did not have symptoms), and another LFD test on the following day. The second LFD test should be taken at least 24 hours later. If both these test results are negative, and you do not have a high temperature, you may end your self-isolation after the second negative test result._

_Report your LFD test results after taking each test_

_You should not take an LFD test before the sixth day of your isolation period, and you should only end your self-isolation after you have had 2 consecutive negative LFD tests which should be taken at least 24 hours apart. You should stop testing after you have had 2 consecutive negative test results._

Personally, I would go ahead with the LFTs, timed from the original LFT, and if negative, use them to go to the Brighton game, although they are going to get pounded. You could try calling T&T back but they are fairly hopeless.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 26, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, they are getting closer but still not quite right. Both extracts copied from gov.uk, as linked above:

_1. If you are notified by NHS Test and Trace of a positive test result you must complete a period of self-isolation. Your isolation period starts immediately from when your symptoms started, or, if you do not have any symptoms, from when your positive LFD or PCR test was taken, *whichever test was taken first.* Your isolation period includes the day your symptoms started (or the day your test was taken if you do not have symptoms), and the next 10 full days._

_2. You may be able to end your self-isolation period before the end of the 10 full days. You can take an LFD test from 6 days after the day your symptoms started (or the day your test was taken if you did not have symptoms), and another LFD test on the following day. The second LFD test should be taken at least 24 hours later. If both these test results are negative, and you do not have a high temperature, you may end your self-isolation after the second negative test result._

_Report your LFD test results after taking each test_

_You should not take an LFD test before the sixth day of your isolation period, and you should only end your self-isolation after you have had 2 consecutive negative LFD tests which should be taken at least 24 hours apart. You should stop testing after you have had 2 consecutive negative test results._

Personally, I would go ahead with the LFTs, timed from the original LFT, and if negative, use them to go to the Brighton game, although they are going to get pounded. You could try calling T&T back but they are fairly hopeless.
		
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Thanks again Ethan, much appreciated.


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## Billysboots (Dec 26, 2021)

The below is a paste from an emergency services social media page in response to a question about the vaccination status of ICU patients. The source is not known to me, and I have no way of vouching for their authenticity, however, it’s an interesting brief read;

“ICU nurse here (married to an Ambulance Tech).

The ICU audit office (ICNARC) publishes information about this. I can find the links and will put them below. However this is a comparison of critical care patients compared with population. Your will see about 50% of ICU patients are fully vaccinated, compared to 80% of the population.

Personal observation is that the vaccinated patients on ICU with Covid are generally older (over 60) and are immunocompromised. The unvaccinated are under 50, generally either obese or pregnant although some have no obvious comorbidities.”


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 27, 2021)

Supposed to have a family get together yesterday. Got a call from my brother about 11o/c, he’d been at his sil’s the day before and his nephews tested positive, consequently wasn’t going to travel as didn’t want to risk bringing anything nasty with him.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 27, 2021)

Started feeling a bit crap on Saturday afternoon and evening and then developed a cough. Company I'm working for told me to get a PCR test which I did yesterday. Negative result came back this morning so it looks like I've just got a cold, which you were allowed to have in the good old days. Strange thing is that I feel worse now with this cold than I did when I got Covid back in November. I think the scientists now need to pull their fingers out and find a vaccine against Man Flu.


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## D-S (Dec 27, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475467355073433601


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## Hobbit (Dec 27, 2021)

Don’t know if it’s been reported in the U.K. but there’s a number of hospitalised patients in northern Spain who have both delta and omicron simultaneously.

Numbers locally are sky rocketing. For months it’s been zero or just a few a week/day. Seeing numbers like 72 new cases and 12 deaths is worrying.


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## D-S (Dec 27, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Don’t know if it’s been reported in the U.K. but there’s a number of hospitalised patients in northern Spain who have both delta and omicron simultaneously.

Numbers locally are sky rocketing. For months it’s been zero or just a few a week/day. Seeing numbers like 72 new cases and 12 deaths is worrying.
		
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Delta cases have been dropping fast in the UK in recent days.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475415105181519873


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## Tashyboy (Dec 27, 2021)

I came across this on Sky news.
Quote,

Symptoms are starting v early w Omicron (for a number of reasons I’ve discussed) This means that there is a chance the virus isnt yet growing in the nose when you first test Virus may start further down. Throat swab + nasal may improve chances a swab picks up virus.








Prof Jennifer L. Rohn

@JennyRohn
Well, there it is. Today, with the “wrong” (i.e. cold) symptoms and after a string of negative LFTs, I finally took Twitter advice and swabbed my throat as well as my nose (no mean feat with that diddly stick). If you think you might have COVID, consider adding the throat sample

Hmm every day is a school day with this COVID 😳


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## road2ruin (Dec 27, 2021)

No restrictions for NYE in England! Good news, can plough ahead with plans as we’ve got friends staying at ours.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			No restrictions for NYE in England! Good news, can plough ahead with plans as we’ve got friends staying at ours.
		
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Quite amazing, but encouraging. I'd have put money on restrictions being announced today, coming in tomorrow. Even the care home my MiL is in had word to expect an announcement today of things coming in. Hopefully the numbers they are seeing are not translating into hospital numbers, hence carry on as before.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 27, 2021)

Some mention on the news of another backbench revolt had more restrictions been imposed. I don't think we'll see how this has all played out until after the NYE festivities and we get back to work.


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## upsidedown (Dec 27, 2021)

Working it's way through my 2 nieces families, fortunately not too bad


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## williamalex1 (Dec 27, 2021)

In Scotland, there are more people allowed into Tesco and Morrisons, than there is into  60,000 capacity football stadiums


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2021)

The other countries have some level of restrictions in place - lots of data out there and I guess there is always some that can be used to paint the negative and other sets that can be used to show it’s not as bad as portrayed


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Quite amazing, but encouraging. I'd have put money on restrictions being announced today, coming in tomorrow. Even the care home my MiL is in had word to expect an announcement today of things coming in. Hopefully the numbers they are seeing are not translating into hospital numbers, hence carry on as before.
		
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Again, I feel quite sure we would be seeing restrictions being imposed if the science supported the doom and gloom being peddled a fortnight ago in the press/media. This has to be interpreted as good news.


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## adam6177 (Dec 27, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Working it's way through my 2 nieces families, fortunately not too bad
		
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Ditto... Had my positive result back on Christmas day. Honestly I've had worse hangovers..... Only thing I'm worried about is having 2 clear lateral flow tests before I Saturday as I'm due to play golf


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Again, I feel quite sure we would be seeing restrictions being imposed if the science supported the doom and gloom being peddled a fortnight ago in the press/media. This has to be interpreted as good news.
		
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Your ‘doom and gloom’ is the scientists ‘reasonable worse case scenario’ - scientists tend to focus on ‘fact’ rather than ‘feelings’’…with RWCS being what much of health policy has always been based upon.  It appears to me that the policy in respect of NYE is tending more towards ’feelings’ rather than ‘fact’.  So be that gamble.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your ‘doom and gloom’ is the scientists ‘reasonable worse case scenario’ - scientists tend to focus on ‘fact’ rather than ‘feelings’’…with RWCS being what much of health policy has always been based upon.  It appears to me that the policy in respect of NYE is tending more towards ’feelings’ rather than ‘fact’.  So be that gamble.
		
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I’ll regret asking this 

But which “facts” are you talking about 

And please stick to facts


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Again, *I feel quite sure we would be seeing restrictions being imposed if the science supported* the doom and gloom being peddled a fortnight ago in the press/media. *This has to be interpreted as good news.*

Click to expand...

Or the decision is being made for political reasons, which we can't discuss. Three of the four home nations have looked at the same data and introduced further restrictions. I just hope that we're right and they're wrong, but only time will tell.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your ‘doom and gloom’ is the scientists ‘reasonable worse case scenario’ - scientists tend to focus on ‘fact’ rather than ‘feelings’’…with RWCS being what much of health policy has always been based upon.  It appears to me that the policy in respect of NYE is tending more towards ’feelings’ rather than ‘fact’.  So be that gamble.
		
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I’m well aware of that, thanks. Thanks for regurgitating the comments of others, though. It’s bad enough being lectured on here by those who actually know their subject matter, so I’d ask you kindly to refrain from trying it yourself.

And please also try for once to make a passing attempt at concealing your contempt for those currently in power. Do you honestly think they have refrained from imposing restrictions based upon a whim, rather than scientific data? Really? It strikes me, given many reports regarding hospitalisations and severity of illness, that if anyone has acted on a whim it is those north and west of the border. Those in this country appear to be applying a dose of common sense.


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Again, I feel quite sure we would be seeing restrictions being imposed if the science supported the doom and gloom being peddled a fortnight ago in the press/media. This has to be interpreted as good news.
		
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My thoughts are that further restrictions in England are being held back until after NYE.
Hospital admissions are still going up - as per the numbers in this chart. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Or the decision is being made for political reasons, which we can't discuss. Three of the four home nations have looked at the same data and introduced further restrictions. I just hope that we're right and they're wrong, but only time will tell.
		
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I’ve said it previously, but given the widespread criticism which followed our reluctance to act previously, I am quite sure if action was required by the data now it would have been swift.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			My thoughts are that further restrictions in England are being held back until after NYE.
Hospital admissions are still going up - as per the numbers in this chart. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

Click to expand...

But not at the levels requiring a lockdown, as even NHS leaders themselves have accepted today.


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## road2ruin (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			But not at the levels requiring a lockdown, as even NHS leaders themselves have accepted today.
		
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Agreed, lockdowns and restrictions should be a last port of call however people seem to now want them based on the possibility of issues. The data is there and as much as people dislike the present party maybe they are actually following the science. There just isn’t enough there you justify further restrictions.


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			But not at the levels requiring a lockdown, as even NHS leaders themselves have accepted today.
		
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Maybe not, though I haven't seen anything wrt NHS opinions. Got a link?.
I've seen 'further restrictions not currently justified', but that could easily change - depending on numbers/advice.


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## IanM (Dec 27, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some mention on the news of another backbench revolt had more restrictions been imposed. I don't think we'll see how this has all played out until after the NYE festivities and we get back to work.
		
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I saw bbc 6 o'clock news.  Appalling how for all other regions of the UK they only stated numbers and the restrictions in force.  

BUT for England, plenty of comment of THEIR opinion of Boris' motivations and possible political implications. 

I wonder how they get away with it?   Its a if they have an agenda


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 27, 2021)

IanM said:



			I saw bbc 6 o'clock news.  Appalling how for all other regions of the UK they only stated numbers and the restrictions in force. 

BUT for England, plenty of comment of THEIR opinion of Boris' motivations and possible political implications.

I wonder how they get away with it?   Its a if they have an agenda

Click to expand...

Agreed. However to delve too far is getting into a dangerous area. I merely quoted what was reported. Anything else I'll leave to the others to dissect


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## D-S (Dec 27, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe not, though I haven't seen anything wrt NHS opinions. Got a link?.
I've seen 'further restrictions not currently justified', but that could easily change - depending on numbers/advice.
		
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Here’s a link

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475557876328509448


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## IanM (Dec 27, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Agreed. However to delve too far is getting into a dangerous area. I merely quoted what was reported. Anything else I'll leave to the others to dissect
		
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And you were correct.   Analysis of alleged motivation re Boris.  Nothing of the kind for other areas.  That is just stating a fact


I am certain why this is, but comment is outside scope of this forum.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe not, though I haven't seen anything wrt NHS opinions. Got a link?.
I've seen 'further restrictions not currently justified', but that could easily change - depending on numbers/advice.
		
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I saw an NHS Chief Executive being interviewed and he said that, whilst hospital figures are up, they are some way short of where they were in January, and as such the numbers required for a lockdown.

I’m not denying we may see further restrictions. Or that managing Omicron is a balancing act. But two years into this pandemic I would hope we have learnt, from bitter past experience, that the timing has to be right.

EDIT: The Chief Executive I saw is the subject of D-S’s link.


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## road2ruin (Dec 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			Here’s a link

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475557876328509448

Click to expand...

Balanced and objective rather than the OTT rhetoric we constantly hear from the MSM etc. Not to say that things might not change for the worse (or better) but good to hear from someone on the inside not trying to panic everyone.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Balanced and objective rather than the OTT rhetoric we constantly hear from the MSM etc. Not to say that things might not change for the worse (or better) but good to hear from someone on the inside not trying to panic everyone.
		
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Absolutely. And hopefully the sort of data the decision makers are basing their decisions on.

Not just acting on their “feelings”. 

🙄


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

D-S said:



			Here’s a link
...
Thanks for that. Looks like finally something useful on Twitter at last - as I believe an earlier, equally informative brief was posted a while ago.
Still doesn't seem to coincide with BB's more positive view (wishful thinking?) but sort of positive - at least compared to last Jan! NHS Covid driven staff absences is a bit concerning, especially as they've been under immense pressure for over a year now!
		
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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Positive view, wishful thinking - isn’t it really the same thing?!


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I saw an NHS Chief Executive being interviewed and he said that, whilst hospital figures are up, they are some way short of where they were in January, and as such the numbers required for a lockdown.

I’m not denying we may see further restrictions. Or that managing Omicron is a balancing act. But two years into this pandemic I would hope we have learnt, from bitter past experience, that the timing has to be right.

EDIT: The Chief Executive I saw is the subject of D-S’s link.
		
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Your interpretation seems 'wishful thinking' to me. Though I hope it turns out to be correct.


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Positive view, wishful thinking - isn’t it really the same thing?!
		
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Depends on what the view/thinking is based on!


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Depends on what the view/thinking is based on!
		
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I’m viewing the fact we haven’t seen further restrictions imposed, despite a rise in hospital numbers and cases, as a positive and have explained why.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Positive view, wishful thinking - isn’t it really the same thing?!
		
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It’s quite clear it seems that positive thinking in regards Covid is not allowed and gets shouted down very quickly


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



*It’s quite clear it seems* that positive thinking in regards Covid is not allowed and gets shouted down very quickly
		
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Certainly not by me! Though if wanting to see data/evidence (as opposed someone's interpretation of it) is deemed 'shouting down', I'm happy to plead guilty!
Btw. Re the bold bit...You seem confused/make you mind up!


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 27, 2021)

Back on track after a week and a bit with covid, although according to the Swedish official numbers I’ve never had covid as the 2 PCR-tests I did both were negative.

Reading on the uk government website regarding faulty LFT tests, the chance of getting a false positive (as opposed to a false negative) is less than 1 in 1,000. I’ve done 5 LFT tests all showing positive, so the chance of all of them being incorrect is 1 in 100 million billions.


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Balanced and objective rather than the OTT rhetoric we constantly hear from the MSM etc. Not to say that things might not change for the worse (or better) but good to hear from someone on the inside not trying to panic everyone.
		
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That tweet references the CEO of NHS Employers. He is responsible for staffing in the NHS, and has no role in any aspect of clinical care. NHS staffing, under his watch, has been at all-time crisis levels, with 60% of doctors and nurses considering leaving. That staffing crisis is a big part of the current pressures. He is entitled to his opinion, but I would place more credence on the views of others closer to the action.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It’s quite clear it seems that positive thinking in regards Covid is not allowed and gets shouted down very quickly
		
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Phil, I find it really depressing that, rather than viewing the ongoing absence of more punishing restrictions as a positive, some here seem absolutely hell bent on believing everything is the result of an agenda.

Surely to goodness the fact that we still largely have our freedom, despite shocking numbers of new infections and continuing deaths and hospital admissions, is excellent news. None of us are party to the behind closed doors briefings, but some simply cannot accept that, just maybe, the decision makers are being told that we don’t need further restrictions at the moment. Perish the thought the science might just be guiding us down this path.

Everywhere there are conspiracy theories. It’s almost as though some would rather see us denied our liberty for ever more. Restrict us by all means if there is no alternative. I’d be fully supportive. But not simply because others elsewhere might just have acted in haste because of _their own_ political agenda.

Maybe it’s those elsewhere who are making political decisions whilst the decision makers here in England are following the science. Wouldn’t that be a turn up for the books?

🙄


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Certainly not by me! Though if wanting to see data/evidence (as opposed someone's interpretation of it) is deemed 'shouting down', I'm happy to plead guilty!
Btw. Re the bold bit...You seem confused/make you mind up!
		
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So I’m not allowed to be encouraged by the fact I’m still allowed to shop and drink in a pub? 

If you preferred that I just lock myself away and cry into my pillow at the numbers, you’ll have a long wait, I’m afraid!


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 27, 2021)

Now that the website is working properly, I've completed the Test & Trace and told that if I choose to self isolate rather than take LFT's my isolation period ends on the 29th of December, which ties in with Mrs. BiM's positive LFT.  Mrs. BiM herself however has had her Covid pass disabled to the 31st of December, in keeping with her positive PCR result.  Why the disparity?


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Phil, I find it really depressing that, rather than viewing the ongoing absence of more punishing restrictions as a positive, some here seem absolutely hell bent on believing everything is the result of an agenda.

Surely to goodness the fact that we still largely have our freedom, despite shocking numbers of new infections and continuing deaths and hospital admissions, is excellent news. None of us are party to the behind closed doors briefings, but some simply cannot accept that, just maybe, the decision makers are being told that we don’t need further restrictions at the moment. Perish the thought the science might just be guiding us down this path.

Everywhere there are conspiracy theories. It’s almost as though some would rather see us denied our liberty for ever more. Restrict us by all means if there is no alternative. I’d be fully supportive. But not simply because others elsewhere might just have acted in haste because of _their own_ political agenda.

Maybe it’s those elsewhere who are making political decisions whilst the decision makers here in England are following the science. Wouldn’t that be a turn up for the books?

🙄
		
Click to expand...

The SAGE minutes are published. You can read them for yourself. You can also find Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance’s comments. It is fairly clear they all want more caution but Tory backbenchers are calling the shots. 

Your choice of language “punishing”, “denied our liberty” and other inflammatory and hysterical nonsense makes it pretty clear you are not considering the matter with any objectivity.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			The SAGE minutes are published. You can read them for yourself. You can also find Chris Whitty and Patrick Vallance’s comments. It is fairly clear they all want more caution but Tory backbenchers are calling the shots.

Your choice of language “punishing”, “denied our liberty” and other inflammatory and hysterical nonsense makes it pretty clear you are not considering the matter with any objectivity.
		
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Give it a rest, please. Your negativity, arrogance and dismissiveness of anyone who ever sees a ray of light amongst all the gloom is beyond boring.

You might be the expert. That doesn’t mean the rest of us are denied an opinion. If we were, this thread would barely have made it beyond the first page.

You are absolutely insufferable.


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			So I’m not allowed to be encouraged by the fact I’m still allowed to shop and drink in a pub?...
		
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Where did I suggest anything of the sort!


Billysboots said:



			...
If you preferred that I just lock myself away and cry into my pillow at the numbers, you’ll have a long wait, I’m afraid!
		
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Give-A-Toss-Ind = 'No'


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Where did I suggest anything of the sort!

Give-A-Toss-Ind = 'No'
		
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Grow up.


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## road2ruin (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			You might be the expert.
		
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It also doesn’t mean he is right. Ethan has the luxury of having more knowledge on this particular subject however there are differing views of other medical people who would completely disagree with him. Time will tell who is right but I think there should be more than ‘correct’ opinion on this thread.


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Give it a rest, please. Your negativity, arrogance and dismissiveness of anyone who ever sees a ray of light amongst all the gloom is beyond boring.

You might be the expert. That doesn’t mean the rest of us are denied an opinion. If we were, this thread would barely have made it beyond the first page.

You are absolutely insufferable.
		
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Who denied you the right to repeatedly and at length express your opinion, the same one over and over again. Not me, so please go and do a large one. I couldn't give a toss whether you like my opinion or not, but some of the stuff you are saying is demonstrably bollox.

Your childish faux-offended answer is also evidence that you know you are talking crap, because I refuted your previous lie and you have completely glossed over it. Tell me where I am wrong, and show me why what you said is true.


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## Foxholer (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Grow up.
		
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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It also doesn’t mean he is right. Ethan has the luxury of having more knowledge on this particular subject however there are differing views of other medical people who would completely disagree with him. Time will tell who is right but I think there should be more than ‘correct’ opinion on this thread.
		
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There are differing medical views, but I am firmly within the broad consensus. Happy to comment on any specific examples you may wish to cite.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			It also doesn’t mean he is right. Ethan has the luxury of having more knowledge on this particular subject however there are differing views of other medical people who would completely disagree with him. Time will tell who is right but I think there should be more than ‘correct’ opinion on this thread.
		
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I’ve said it to him directly before, it’s not what is said, but the way it is said. 

I am perfectly entitled to feel positive about the last day or so, and express it here, without being accused of hysteria, talking nonsense and a lack of objectivity.

And I’ve also said more than once that I have no intention of immersing myself in medical journals, spreadsheets packed full of data and so on before I am allowed to express a view.

This is a golf forum, for pity’s sake. It’s not an appendix to the British Medical Journal. 99% are lay people when it comes to Covid. It doesn’t mean we should be chastised like pre-school toddlers if we have the temerity to get it wrong.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Who denied you the right to repeatedly and at length express your opinion, the same one over and over again. Not me, so please go and do a large one. I couldn't give a toss whether you like my opinion or not, but some of the stuff you are saying is demonstrably bollox.

Your childish faux-offended answer is also evidence that you know you are talking crap, because I refuted your previous lie and you have completely glossed over it. Tell me where I am wrong, and show me why what you said is true.
		
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As I said, insufferable. Go and snap a 7-iron over your knee.


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## road2ruin (Dec 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			There are differing medical views, but I am firmly within the broad consensus. Happy to comment on any specific examples you may wish to cite.
		
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I cannot cite specific examples, I am not a medical professional and have not claimed to be so. You have a medical background so have the advantage over everyone on this forum however it doesn’t make you correct, it just means you sound more convincing than the rest of us.


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			I’ve said it to him directly before, it’s not what is said, but the way it is said.

I am perfectly entitled to feel positive about the last day or so, and express it here, without being accused of hysteria, talking nonsense and a lack of objectivity.

And I’ve also said more than once that I have no intention of immersing myself in medical journals, spreadsheets packed full of data and so on before I am allowed to express a view.

This is a golf forum, for pity’s sake. It’s not an appendix to the British Medical Journal. 99% are lay people when it comes to Covid. It doesn’t mean we should be chastised like pre-school toddlers if we have the temerity to get it wrong.
		
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You are perfectly entitled to feel positive, enthusiastic or euphoric, but that breezy positivity is not a good place from which to plan public health responses to a pandemic. It is impossible to accurately and finely titrate the policy response because there are so many unknowns, and it is much harder to recover slippage than to prevent it in the first place. For that reason, public policy should be cautious and consistent and not zig-zagging or unclear. 

Other people post more graphs and spreadsheets than I do. I am sure you will rebuke them too. 

If you don't want to see my lectures or symposia, feel free to block me.


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## 4LEX (Dec 27, 2021)

Can we not agree it's best to be careful still but theres definitely a lot of light at the end of the tunnel. Everyone wants the same things;

Protect the NHS
Avoid people dying
Avoid the NHS being clogged up and delays for other serious issues
Avoid lockdowns
Protect various sectors of the economy
Get back to 'normality'

The trouble is everyone has different ways of achieving it short and medium term


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## Ethan (Dec 27, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I cannot cite specific examples, I am not a medical professional and have not claimed to be so. You have a medical background so have the advantage over everyone on this forum however it doesn’t make you correct, it just means you sound more convincing than the rest of us.
		
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Well you said: _Ethan has the luxury of having more knowledge on this particular subject however there are differing views of other medical people who would completely disagree with him._

I assume you were referring to actual real differing views you had read or seen, not just plucking it out of the air. I stand corrected.


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## Billysboots (Dec 27, 2021)

Ethan said:



			You are perfectly entitled to feel positive, enthusiastic or euphoric, *but that breezy positivity is not a good place from which to plan public health responses to a pandemic.*

Click to expand...

For heaven’s sake, man, where did I say it was? I merely said that I feel encouraged by the fact we haven’t had more restrictions placed upon us, and that I hoped it was a positive sign. Is that so unforgivable?

And as regards your final paragraph, I hope your tongue was firmly in cheek when you used the word “lectures”. If not, in addition to snapping the 7-iron over your knee as a way of venting your frustration at the incompetence of the rest of the forum in private, you might want to have a quiet word with yourself.

I’ll say yet again, I find much of what you say informative, insightful and helpful. For that reason I have no intention of blocking you. I’m not that juvenile. But I’m sure I’m not alone when I say I object to being lectured. Please try and take the criticism, because that is precisely what it is, on board. You might find if you do that your interactions with everyone here, not just those you agree with, become more enjoyable for everyone.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 27, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59802144

It seems that even though we can go out and shop the sales, footfall is 30% down. Some folk may well think the economy Is paramount. Joe Public thinks otherwise. Just coz you can don’t mean you have to or want to.


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2021)

It would seem from some of the language being used recently that tolerance is something not tolerated here at the moment.  

An early night children is needed as too many sugary  christmas sweets have got you wound up


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## bobmac (Dec 28, 2021)




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## AliMc (Dec 28, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			In Scotland, there are more people allowed into Tesco and Morrisons, than there is into  60,000 capacity football stadiums 

Click to expand...

... and I see we have the smug Jason Leitch back on preaching to us all again !


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 28, 2021)

On a more positive note, Mrs BiM has produced a negative LFT result.


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## Old Skier (Dec 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your ‘doom and gloom’ is the scientists ‘reasonable worse case scenario’ - scientists tend to focus on ‘fact’ rather than ‘feelings’’…with RWCS being what much of health policy has always been based upon.  It appears to me that the policy in respect of NYE is tending more towards ’feelings’ rather than ‘fact’.  So be that gamble.
		
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Scenario’s are not based on fact


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## Old Skier (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			So I’m not allowed to be encouraged by the fact I’m still allowed to shop and drink in a pub?

If you preferred that I just lock myself away and cry into my pillow at the numbers, you’ll have a long wait, I’m afraid!
		
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There are some obsessed with stats, only the stats that suit them.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Phil, I find it really depressing that, rather than viewing the ongoing absence of more punishing restrictions as a positive, some here seem absolutely hell bent on believing everything is the result of an agenda.

Surely to goodness the fact that we still largely have our freedom, despite shocking numbers of new infections and continuing deaths and hospital admissions, is excellent news. None of us are party to the behind closed doors briefings, but some simply cannot accept that, just maybe, the decision makers are being told that we don’t need further restrictions at the moment. Perish the thought the science might just be guiding us down this path.

Everywhere there are conspiracy theories. It’s almost as though some would rather see us denied our liberty for ever more. Restrict us by all means if there is no alternative. I’d be fully supportive. But not simply because others elsewhere might just have acted in haste because of _their own_ political agenda.

Maybe it’s those elsewhere who are making political decisions whilst the decision makers here in England are following the science. Wouldn’t that be a turn up for the books?

🙄
		
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Totally on side with your comments over the last day or so - we have our freedom and that is totally justified given the vaccinations, boosters and new drugs that are helping ameliorate the effects of covid. I said before that i hope we are near the point that we have anough amunition in the medical closet and heard immunity is near. The government still seem to be looking at restrictions for January, which I feel are still completely unjustified. I hope they hold their nerve and highlight the positives and urge people to live their lives and make their own choices. The economic and social impacts of restrictions need a lot more balance in the decision making process, likewise the impact on schools and exams, mental health, surging drug and alcohol deaths, the backlogs in the courts etc. It seems like the latest surge in cases has been concentrated in the younger and/or unvaccinated. That shows the medical strategy is working. The goal has always been to live with covid not eliminate it. I think we are hopefully at or near that point and that we can moe into 2022 confident that covid is moving into the endemic stage.


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## pokerjoke (Dec 28, 2021)

I’m sick of the word Covid as I was the word brexit.
The best thing to do imo is just get on with life,yes be careful if you want but it seems to me not everyone is on the same page.
Some wear masks some don’t ,how can that be right.
50,000 football fans in stadiums 
2000 at the darts all crammed in but restrictions else where.
I went into a post office the other day with a mask on,the lady behind the screen never had one on ,so I took mine off.
She didn’t say owt but gave me a look and I thought please say something ,and I think I might of lost it if she did.


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Scenario’s are not based on fact
		
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Of course they are, a set of scenarios calibrates the parameters at the extremes of their range.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 28, 2021)

pokerjoke said:



			I’m sick of the word Covid as I was the word brexit.
The best thing to do imo is just get on with life,yes be careful if you want but it seems to me not everyone is on the same page.
Some wear masks some don’t ,how can that be right.
50,000 football fans in stadiums
2000 at the darts all crammed in but restrictions else where.
I went into a post office the other day with a mask on,the lady behind the screen never had one on ,so I took mine off.
She didn’t say owt but gave me a look and I thought please say something ,and I think I might of lost it if she did.
		
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Up to a point I am totally with you. There needs to be a degree of normality but unfortunately I am not sure we are where we need to be yet for that. I personally think cases will spike further and so will hospital admissions once the festive season ends and the incubation period kicks over. What we do need though is a unified front and having four sets of rules depending on postcode seems ludicrous. You can do one thing in England and move less than a mile down the road to Scotland or Wales and its something different. How can there be any consistency


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## Old Skier (Dec 28, 2021)

drdel said:



			Of course they are, a set of scenarios calibrates the parameters at the extremes of their range.
		
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Anyone can come up with a scenario based on what they believe. No facts required.

Some even predict the world ending in 7 days.


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Totally on side with your comments over the last day or so - we have our freedom and that is totally justified given the vaccinations, boosters and new drugs that are helping ameliorate the effects of covid. I said before that i hope we are near the point that we have anough amunition in the medical closet and heard immunity is near. The government still seem to be looking at restrictions for January, which I feel are still completely unjustified. I hope they hold their nerve and highlight the positives and urge people to live their lives and make their own choices. The economic and social impacts of restrictions need a lot more balance in the decision making process, likewise the impact on schools and exams, mental health, surging drug and alcohol deaths, the backlogs in the courts etc. It seems like the latest surge in cases has been concentrated in the younger and/or unvaccinated. That shows the medical strategy is working. The goal has always been to live with covid not eliminate it. I think we are hopefully at or near that point and that we can moe into 2022 confident that covid is moving into the endemic stage.
		
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But the vaccine hasn’t proven to be the be all and end all. New variants has shown that the virus, in one form or another, hasn’t gone away. Hospital admissions and deaths are rising.

Don’t get me wrong, I think we’re in a far better position than we were 12 months ago but I don’t think we’re in a position to go gaily skipping down the street just yet.

No to shutting down completely, yes to keeping measured responses in place.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			But the vaccine hasn’t proven to be the be all and end all. New variants has shown that the virus, in one form or another, hasn’t gone away. Hospital admissions and deaths are rising.

Don’t get me wrong, I think we’re in a far better position than we were 12 months ago but I don’t think we’re in a position to go gaily skipping down the street just yet.

No to shutting down completely, yes to keeping measured responses in place.
		
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Brian. I think people are, at least a large proportion, making their own measure assessments of risks in different scenarios. I am not saying the virus has gone away but after 2 years, £400bn+ of extra spending in the UK alone, good and likely improving vaccinations, extensive testing and isolating, new super drugs to help with symptoms etc, we are in a place where we have to live with this as it is not going away. Deaths and hospitalizations will likely rise over the next month or so but hopefully not enough to overwhelm the health service, which is sorely tested often with seasonal flu. Phil's post above about some infected people carrying on working will no doubt be a hot topic in the months ahead.


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Brian. I think people are, at least a large proportion, making their own measure assessments of risks in different scenarios. I am not saying the virus has gone away but after 2 years, £400bn+ of extra spending in the UK alone, good and likely improving vaccinations, extensive testing and isolating, new super drugs to help with symptoms etc, we are in a place where we have to live with this as it is not going away. Deaths and hospitalizations will likely rise over the next month or so but hopefully not enough to overwhelm the health service, which is sorely tested often with seasonal flu. Phil's post above about some infected people carrying on working will no doubt be a hot topic in the months ahead.
		
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We’re splitting hairs, but to pick up on one phrase, “but hopefully.” Is that really wise, to stick your finger in the air and hope for the best?

When Spanish flu was almost done, St Louis Missouri held a ‘victory parade.’ A month later over 100,000 locally died. We learn from history, or we should. My gut feel, which counts for nowt, is close to where Billyboots is and suggests we’re so close to being there. For the sake of a few weeks why risk it?


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## IanM (Dec 28, 2021)

...most sensible people are being "sensible!"  Idiots are being idiots. 😉

Twas ever thus.


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			But the vaccine hasn’t proven to be the be all and end all. New variants has shown that the virus, in one form or another, hasn’t gone away. Hospital admissions and deaths are rising.

Don’t get me wrong, I think we’re in a far better position than we were 12 months ago but I don’t think we’re in a position to go gaily skipping down the street just yet.

No to shutting down completely, yes to keeping measured responses in place.
		
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Brian, on Friday I posted some comments copied from an emergency services social media page from a lady claiming to be an ICU nurse. Whilst I can’t vouch for her authenticity, equally, the nature of the comments and where they were posted gives me no reason to doubt her. Included was the following;

“Personal observation is that the vaccinated patients on ICU with Covid are generally older (over 60) and are immunocompromised. The unvaccinated are under 50, generally either obese or pregnant although some have no obvious comorbidities.”

So, whilst I do not disagree with your comments regarding people thinking the vaccine is the be all and end all, it is clearly making a significant difference to hospitalisations or, at least, the demographic of those finding themselves in hospital, specifically ICU’s.

If, and it’s a big if, the observations are replicated elsewhere then it seems that, whilst vaccinated people are still finding themselves in ICU, in this lady’s experience that tends in the main to be if they have a weakened immune response. 

This would seem to add context to the fantastic campaign to get everyone fully vaccinated. And equally, given the success of that campaign and the suggestion that hospital numbers are not at the level they were during January, it perhaps lends some credence to the current absence of further restrictions.

Your last paragraph is spot on. It may just be that we are approaching a time when common sense will take precedence over lockdown measures. Lock us down if it is necessary, by all means. But it may just be that won’t become necessary as the current vaccination program gathers pace.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 28, 2021)

I find I agree 100% with this Spiked article, especially the line 

“In the absence of hard data, the experts have turned to models to make their case for lockdown, It has long been clear that these models are less than worthless. No one can seriously believe SAGE’s warning from earlier this week that without new restrictions we are heading towards 6,000 Covid deaths per day.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/12/20/we-cannot-let-them-lock-us-down-again/


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Brian, on Friday I posted some comments copied from an emergency services social media page from a lady claiming to be an ICU nurse. Whilst I can’t vouch for her authenticity, equally, the nature of the comments and where they were posted gives me no reason to doubt her. Included was the following;

“Personal observation is that the vaccinated patients on ICU with Covid are generally older (over 60) and are immunocompromised. The unvaccinated are under 50, generally either obese or pregnant although some have no obvious comorbidities.”

So, whilst I do not disagree with your comments regarding people thinking the vaccine is the be all and end all, it is clearly making a significant difference to hospitalisations or, at least, the demographic of those finding themselves in hospital, specifically ICU’s.

If, and it’s a big if, the observations are replicated elsewhere then it seems that, whilst vaccinated people are still finding themselves in ICU, in this lady’s experience that tends in the main to be if they have a weakened immune response.

This would seem to add context to the fantastic campaign to get everyone fully vaccinated. And equally, given the success of that campaign and the suggestion that hospital numbers are not at the level they were during January, it perhaps lends some credence to the current absence of further restrictions.

Your last paragraph is spot on. It may just be that we are approaching a time when common sense will take precedence over lockdown measures. Lock us down if it is necessary, by all means. But it may just be that won’t become necessary as the current vaccination program gathers pace.
		
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I’ve not gone looking for the data but a question I have is what do the current infection rates and deaths look like compared to some of the worst flu years in the last 30 years? Again, that useless gut feel, suggests we’re almost at a time when it’s comparable. Anecdotal maybe’s count for nowt without real data to back them up but… are we not reaching the point of a bad seasonal flu.

The eldest daughter, a supposed intelligent woman, had 42 to a house party. 2 children contracted Covid, 1 of which almost certainly took it to the party. No one, not even immediate parents and grandparents, who were in contact post-party, caught it.

We’ve had 3 functions at the bowls club in the last fortnight. 40+ not so young people attending, no one has it. 30 odd bars in our large village/town, and although Covid is around(9 people), no sign of people dropping in the streets.

Time to get on with life.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			I’ve not gone looking for the data but a question I have is what do the current infection rates and deaths look like compared to some of the worst flu years in the last 30 years? Again, that useless gut feel, suggests we’re almost at a time when it’s comparable. Anecdotal maybe’s count for nowt without real data to back them up but… are we not reaching the point of a bad seasonal flu.

The eldest daughter, a supposed intelligent woman, had 42 to a house party. 2 children contracted Covid, 1 of which almost certainly took it to the party. No one, not even immediate parents and grandparents, who were in contact post-party, caught it.

We’ve had 3 functions at the bowls club in the last fortnight. 40+ not so young people attending, no one has it. 30 odd bars in our large village/town, and although Covid is around(9 people), no sign of people dropping in the streets.

Time to get on with life.
		
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Agree….. Prof Paul Hunter, professor in medicine at the University of East Anglia, told BBC Breakfast that in time people with Covid should be allowed to "go about their normal lives" as they would with a common cold.

That suggests people could ignore test results and carry on regardless. Which is funny because why take a test (which is most unpleasant anyway) if you feel OK and are going to ignore the outcome anyway?


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

First discovery Wuhan 24 Dec 2019
Alpha Variant Kent Sept/Oct 2020
Beta Variant South Africa Dec 2020
Gamma Variant Tokyo/Amazonas Jan 2021
Delta Variant India Oct 2020
Delta Plus Variant June 2021
Omicron Variant Botswana/South Africa Nov 2021

There are a number of other variants, some of which have spread widely and are 'under investigation' (Eta, Iota, Kappa), while others have been 'outcompeted' or deemed 'no longer of interest' by WHO.

What makes anyone think this scourge isn't going to continue to mutate with 1 or more variants having the ability to disrupt almost every aspect of life for a considerable time?

It'll certainly, imo, require regular anti-Covid jabs and considerably more frequently than and to a greater proportion of the population than for Flu. Vaccine development will continue to be a 'growth industry'!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 28, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			We’re splitting hairs, but to pick up on one phrase, “but hopefully.” Is that really wise, to stick your finger in the air and hope for the best?

When Spanish flu was almost done, St Louis Missouri held a ‘victory parade.’ A month later over 100,000 locally died. We learn from history, or we should. My gut feel, which counts for nowt, is close to where Billyboots is and suggests we’re so close to being there. For the sake of a few weeks why risk it?
		
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There is no certainty on anything. If it is "only a few weeks" I doubt it will make hardly any difference to the amount of covid out there as this omicron has torn through the population. And infections seem to have stabilised so I doubt any more restrictive measures will make much difference to the course of events over the next couple of months other than to be a large economic negative.


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			“In the absence of hard data, the experts have turned to models to make their case for lockdown, It has long been clear that these models are less than worthless. No one can seriously believe SAGE’s warning from earlier this week that without new restrictions we are heading towards 6,000 Covid deaths per day.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/12/20/we-cannot-let-them-lock-us-down-again/

Click to expand...

That Spiked article was just another example of 'sensationalist journalism'!

SAGE is extremely unlikely to ever use language like that suggested. In fact the Guardian article you quote gets it right with the words 'up to' in the headline and 'could' in the body - which was what Sage apparently indicated in it's 'worst case' model. But, of course, newspapers, including the Guardian article above grabbed the headline-producing worst case model too!


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## Fade and Die (Dec 28, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That Spiked article was just another example of 'sensationalist journalism'!

SAGE is extremely unlikely to ever use language like that suggested. In fact the Guardian article you quote gets it right with the words 'up to' in the headline and 'could' in the body - which was what Sage apparently indicated in it's 'worst case' model. But, of course, newspapers, including the Guardian article above grabbed the headline-producing worst case model too!
		
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Whilst SAGE may not use the “sensational language” they certainly are not above using “sensational scenarios” 

https://data.spectator.co.uk/category/sage-scenarios


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## coryland (Dec 28, 2021)

I had the coronovirus in September. 
I lay for two days with weakness, lost my sense of smell, and that was it. 
After two or three months I began to notice that the taste of some foods had changed...It made me sad 
My mom was living with me at the time and she didn't even get sick (weird, right?)


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			Whilst SAGE may not use the “sensational language” they certainly are not above using “sensational scenarios”

https://data.spectator.co.uk/category/sage-scenarios

Click to expand...

Here's their own statement about their role.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/its-not-true-covid-19-modellers-look-only-at-worst-outcomes

I'd suggest it's 'news' media who select the model that fits best with the pov they are producing.

Edit: Here's a paragraph from the above article that's pretty relevant...
'Equally, those who want to engage seriously with a debate that affects us all need to consider all the data in the round, not only those parts that fit an argument while ignoring the rest. That is not science, even though it might sometimes make an entertaining read.'


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Here's a paragraph from the above article that's pretty relevant...

'Equally, those who want to engage seriously with a debate that affects us all need to consider all the data in the round, not only those parts that fit an argument while ignoring the rest. That is not science, even though it might sometimes make an entertaining read.'
		
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Indeed. Although I suspect that is perhaps aimed at those wanting to engage in professional debate, not a bunch of lay people on a golf forum.


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 28, 2021)

New Year's Eve do at the golf club has now been cancelled due to falling numbers.


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## chellie (Dec 28, 2021)

Eldest DD and her husband both positive. He of course is worse than her Seriously though they both feel as if they are full of a bad cold and have lost taste and smell.


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Indeed. Although I suspect that is perhaps aimed at those wanting to engage in professional debate, not a bunch of lay people on a golf forum.
		
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Depends how 'committed' to getting 'the real story' the recipient of the info is, as opposed to having their own 'bias' confirmed!
Just realise that the numbers chosen for those article(s) were almost certainly 'worst case' ones.


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## D-S (Dec 28, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475866358558740485
Interesting to see that although beds occupied and admissions are rising, ventilator beds are not rising by the same extent at all and when taking England as a whole have not risen at all over the past 7 days.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2021)

Just read this on the Sky news channel.

*17,269 new Omicron cases reported across England and Northern Ireland*
Of these, 16,133 were reported in England and 1,136 in Northern Ireland.
The number of deaths in England of people with the Omicron variant has risen to 49, according to the UKHSA.
Hospital admissions in England for people with confirmed or suspected Omicron rose to 668.
Wales has not reported figures yet due to the festive period, while Scotland is no longer separating Omicron cases from other variants in its daily reports.
We'll be expecting more data on the total number of cases confirmed (including other variants) later this afternoon.



Now there’s loads I could ask but if 17,269 cases yesterday were Omicron. That means around 80,000 were Delta? Yet Delta is more serious and we’re talking about relaxing things because Omicron is not as bad. But 668 were admitted to hospital with Omicron. me head is flippin spinning.


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## IainP (Dec 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just read this on the Sky news channel.

*17,269 new Omicron cases reported across England and Northern Ireland*
Of these, 16,133 were reported in England and 1,136 in Northern Ireland.
The number of deaths in England of people with the Omicron variant has risen to 49, according to the UKHSA.
Hospital admissions in England for people with confirmed or suspected Omicron rose to 668.
Wales has not reported figures yet due to the festive period, while Scotland is no longer separating Omicron cases from other variants in its daily reports.
We'll be expecting more data on the total number of cases confirmed (including other variants) later this afternoon.



Now there’s loads I could ask but if 17,269 cases yesterday were Omicron. That means around 80,000 were Delta? Yet Delta is more serious and we’re talking about relaxing things because Omicron is not as bad. But 668 were admitted to hospital with Omicron. me head is flippin spinning.
		
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Or xxxx were delta and yyyy were undetermined/yet to be determined


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2021)

IainP said:



			Or xxxx were delta and yyyy were undetermined/yet to be determined
		
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👍 Missis T has just had a read re how your Omicron is diagnosed from your PCR. Bottom line it can take 4-5 days depending on where/ which site your test is sent to.


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone can come up with a scenario based on what they believe. No facts required.

Some even predict the world ending in 7 days.
		
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Come on,   let's have some sense.  What are you arguing about?

Scenarios can be based on facts or prophesies or imaginings, surely?

Just saying this or that is a scenario , doesn't mean it can only be one of those things, depending on your outlook.

A scientist says his is based on facts. A Bookie says his is based on odds.

A scenario,aka a projection, can be made on any of those things. Doesn't necessarily mean any of them are going to be accurate😀


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## Fade and Die (Dec 28, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Here's their own statement about their role.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/its-not-true-covid-19-modellers-look-only-at-worst-outcomes

I'd suggest it's 'news' media who select the model that fits best with the pov they are producing.

Edit: Here's a paragraph from the above article that's pretty relevant...
'Equally, those who want to engage seriously with a debate that affects us all need to consider all the data in the round, not only those parts that fit an argument while ignoring the rest. That is not science, even though it might sometimes make an entertaining read.'
		
Click to expand...

whilst it says that they do not only look at worst outcomes this Twitter discussion with the chairman of SAGE makes it pretty clear that they only model the bad outcomes because no extra restrictions are required for a “good” outcome…
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article...hairman-of-the-sage-covid-modelling-committee


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## Old Skier (Dec 28, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Come on,   let's have some sense.  What are you arguing about?

Scenarios can be based on facts or prophesies or imaginings, surely?

Just saying this or that is a scenario , doesn't mean it can only be one of those things, depending on your outlook.

A scientist says his is based on facts. A Bookie says his is based on odds.

A scenario,aka a projection, can be made on any of those things. Doesn't necessarily mean any of them are going to be accurate😀
		
Click to expand...

Which was my point earlier on. Posters getting knocked because they didn’t accept a scenario.


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just read this on the Sky news channel.

*17,269 new Omicron cases reported across England and Northern Ireland*
Of these, 16,133 were reported in England and 1,136 in Northern Ireland.
The number of deaths in England of people with the Omicron variant has risen to 49, according to the UKHSA.
Hospital admissions in England for people with confirmed or suspected Omicron rose to 668.
Wales has not reported figures yet due to the festive period, while Scotland is no longer separating Omicron cases from other variants in its daily reports.
We'll be expecting more data on the total number of cases confirmed (including other variants) later this afternoon.



Now there’s loads I could ask but if 17,269 cases yesterday were Omicron. That means around 80,000 were Delta? Yet Delta is more serious and we’re talking about relaxing things because Omicron is not as bad. But 668 were admitted to hospital with Omicron. me head is flippin spinning.
		
Click to expand...

Tashy,

You/they've made the same blunder I did some time back!

The 16,133 is the INCREASE over yesterday's figures!
So confirmed Omicron cases for the period were 159,204


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 28, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Tashy,

You've made the same blunder I did some time back!

The 16,133 is the INCREASE over yesterday's figures!
So confirmed Omicron cases for the period were 159,204
		
Click to expand...

Foxy, you do realise this admission tarnishes your role as Forum Pedant 👍


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## adam6177 (Dec 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just read this on the Sky news channel.

*17,269 new Omicron cases reported across England and Northern Ireland*
Of these, 16,133 were reported in England and 1,136 in Northern Ireland.
The number of deaths in England of people with the Omicron variant has risen to 49, according to the UKHSA.
Hospital admissions in England for people with confirmed or suspected Omicron rose to 668.
Wales has not reported figures yet due to the festive period, while Scotland is no longer separating Omicron cases from other variants in its daily reports.
We'll be expecting more data on the total number of cases confirmed (including other variants) later this afternoon.



Now there’s loads I could ask but if 17,269 cases yesterday were Omicron. That means around 80,000 were Delta? Yet Delta is more serious and we’re talking about relaxing things because Omicron is not as bad. But 668 were admitted to hospital with Omicron. me head is flippin spinning.
		
Click to expand...


Tashy, one thing to consider as always with these numbers is that because someone in in hospital "with" covid doesn't mean they're in hospital "because" of it.... They could have broken a toe playing football and then end up being a covid stat.


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Foxy, you do realise this admission tarnishes your role as Forum Pedant 👍
		
Click to expand...

Happy to correct my own blunders.

Though there could be a 'correction to the blunder correction'. 

Nope! Just seen UK numbers on Worldometer...129K cases today 18 deaths. Obviously numbers aren't 'co-ordinated/equalised' but that indicates most, if not nearly all, will be Omicron. No way could ICUs handle the numbers recently if most were Delta. My local hospital, part of a 2 hospital trust has 9 ICU beds normally. Though no doubt there's been some adjustments made.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 28, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			Tashy, one thing to consider as always with these numbers is that because someone in in hospital "with" covid doesn't mean they're in hospital "because" of it.... They could have broken a toe playing football and then end up being a covid stat.
		
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Funnily enough there was a guy representing hospital trusts on the news this morning pointing this out. One chief exec he had spoken to the day before had said the majority of covid cases in his hospital were people in for other things who had tested positive when checked. No symptoms of covid, but obviously carrying it. They add in to the stats but are not in danger from covid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 28, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			I find I agree 100% with this Spiked article, especially the line

“In the absence of hard data, the experts have turned to models to make their case for lockdown, It has long been clear that these models are less than worthless. No one can seriously believe SAGE’s warning from earlier this week *that without new restrictions we are heading towards 6,000 Covid deaths per day.*

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/12/20/we-cannot-let-them-lock-us-down-again/

Click to expand...

I am assuming that that number is in the context of the ‘reasonable worse case scenario’ - in which case it is simply provided to the government in order for them to understand what they may have to mitigate against happening in the worse case. 

The government has then to balance the actions that would be required to mitigate that risk against the impact the actions would have on the economy and softer (mental) public health issues…and as it is the RWCS estimate it is likely that they will choose to not go that far. 

But I would not be drawing from the modelling that without new restrictions we *would* be heading for ~6000 deaths per day - that is not what the modelling estimates for anything other than the RWCS - and even for that we are not given the level of uncertainty around that RWCS estimate - and that could be very wide.


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## adam6177 (Dec 28, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Funnily enough there was a guy representing hospital trusts on the news this morning pointing this out. One chief exec he had spoken to the day before had said the majority of covid cases in his hospital were people in for other things who had tested positive when checked. No symptoms of covid, but obviously carrying it. They add in to the stats but are not in danger from covid.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly, and the reason I don't get sucked in by the sensationalist headlines with breaking news flashing around them at this time of day.... I can't imagine the amount of poor people frightened to death with mental health issues and the added impact this kind of reporting has had on them.


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## road2ruin (Dec 28, 2021)

Fade and Die said:



			whilst it says that they do not only look at worst outcomes this Twitter discussion with the chairman of SAGE makes it pretty clear that they only model the bad outcomes because no extra restrictions are required for a “good” outcome…
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article...hairman-of-the-sage-covid-modelling-committee

Click to expand...

They also only model what they are asked to I.E. whatever suits the agenda of the day be it positive vibes or let’s lock everyone down type things.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They also only model what they are asked to I.E. whatever suits the agenda of the day be it positive vibes or let’s lock everyone down type things.
		
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Indeed…..


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Covid-denialism by certain posters in this thread is now reaching the ridiculous stage.
		
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I must have missed it, Kaz, because I haven’t seen too many denying there’s a coronavirus pandemic.


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## pauljames87 (Dec 28, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Covid-denialism by certain posters in this thread is now reaching the ridiculous stage.
		
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I think everyone gets frustrated with the situation and sometimes want to question well why is this happening.. why have they done this or not done that.. thats natural .. especially after this long

however the flat out deniers are just plain mental.


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## BiMGuy (Dec 28, 2021)

We now live in a world where everyone has been told and believes that their opinion is just as important as everyone else’s, even if that option is completely contradictory to the truth. 

People now seem to struggle with the concept that they can have their own opinions but not their own facts.


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## road2ruin (Dec 28, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Covid-denialism by certain posters in this thread is now reaching the ridiculous stage.
		
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Disagree, I think you can have your views on restrictions, for/against, without being a denier. Whilst we have a varied range of views/opinions on Covid I haven’t seen any posts that I would class as ‘denialism’.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 28, 2021)

BiMGuy said:



			We now live in a world where everyone has been told and believes that their opinion is just as important as everyone else’s, even if that option is completely contradictory to the truth.

People now seem to struggle with the concept that they can have their own opinions *but not their own facts.*

Click to expand...

Does my head in the whole "This is MY truth" thing. No, it's not. It's either THE truth or it's wrong. There is no my truth or your truth, there's just the truth.

EDIT - just realised that might come across as having a go at you which wasn't the intention of my post at all. I didn't mean you personally when I put "your truth", just in general.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 28, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Covid-denialism by certain posters in this thread is now reaching the ridiculous stage.
		
Click to expand...

Not denial at all, I just think we are now in the place we were aiming for…NHS protected, vulnerable protected, vast majority of people double/triple jabbed therefore reducing Covid to a minor illness. It’s been said and I agree that we need to learn to live with Covid, it will not go away so like seasonal flu we need to look after the vulnerable but the majority of people need to just carry on.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Tashy,

You/they've made the same blunder I did some time back!

The 16,133 is the INCREASE over yesterday's figures!
So confirmed Omicron cases for the period were 159,204
		
Click to expand...

I think this is why I said me head is spinning.

That said, day six and still positive. Missis T if she is negative I think will go and see the grandsproggs and probably come back sometime in March 😁


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 28, 2021)

Something that needs to be remembered , I think.
That is, for some old and vulnerable people, Covid can be like the IRA once said about their efforts .
"You've got to be lucky all the time, we only need to be lucky ( infect you) once"

I'm not saying live in fear of this, but there are some times that some people have to be very careful.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2021)

A pal OF mine has said he is not golfing today coz he has a cold. I have put on our Whattsapp group that he should have a PCR. Why? Just over a year ago he told everyone his missis was going for a COVID test ( whilst stood on the 11th tee) . Three days later he tested positive and the NHS app pinged us and cost us 10 days golf. It did not go down well he was and still is so Blase’.


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## adam6177 (Dec 28, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Something that needs to be remembered , I think.
That is, for some old and vulnerable people, Covid can be like the IRA once said about their efforts .
"You've got to be lucky all the time, we only need to be lucky ( infect you) once"

I'm not saying live in fear of this, but there are some times that some people have to be very careful.
		
Click to expand...

My mum was a nurse for a little over 40 years....she worked on geriatric ward looking after old people and there are 2 main things that stick in my mind:

1. She saw more old men's Willies than I've had hot dinners.

2. Flu/pneumonia was always known as "old man's best friend" amongst the nurses..... People in latter stages of life and with often little quality/poor health were " done a favour" by contracting it.  

This may be seen as morbid by some, but she dealt with life and death more often than any of us should ever have to, and with that comes a cold sense of matter of fact.

I see a future now where each winter a covid style virus will become the new friend.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Indeed. Although I suspect that is perhaps aimed at those wanting to engage in professional debate, not a bunch of lay people on a golf forum.
		
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Most of us are lay people in respect of the epidemiology of a viral pandemic, but some of us have done very detailed and complex system state modelling and estimation and so have at least a pretty good ideal of the nature of the statistical analysis and modelling being carried out and provided to Sage in support of its advice and input to government decision making.  I get frustrated when that analysis is misrepresented by the media and by those who should really, and probably do, know better.  And as that misrepresentation is not confined to any specific point of view I hope it is clear that I am not being ‘partisan’ or ‘biased’ in any way in expressing those frustrations.


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			They also only model what they are asked to I.E. whatever suits the agenda of the day be it positive vibes or let’s lock everyone down type things.
		
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It would be a pretty crap scientist who only did what other non-experts wanted!

A good analyst, scientist or modeller would build the stimulated environment from their knowledge and the lacuna of evidence in the field. The testing would look at how well it represents the current knowns and then by taking values to the left and right of arc and probabilities associated with the independent variables attempt to get at some of the known unknowns.

No expert I know would be led by the nose and model/simulate nonsensical scenarios.


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Most of us are lay people in respect of the epidemiology of a viral pandemic, but some of us have done very detailed and complex system state modelling and estimation and so have at least a pretty good ideal of the nature of the statistical analysis and modelling being carried out and provided to Sage in support of its advice and input to government decision making.
		
Click to expand...

That’s nice.

So how does that help the 95% or more on this forum that this doesn’t apply to?


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			That’s nice.

So how does that help the 95% or more on this forum that this doesn’t apply to?
		
Click to expand...

Your disdain doesn't alter the fact SILH is right.


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

drdel said:



			Your disdain doesn't alter the fact SILH is right.
		
Click to expand...

He may well be right. But in terms of a general discussion about a very complex global pandemic, which is taking place on a golf forum largely not populated by statistical and medical experts, his point is actually rather pointless.

EDIT: Or are you also joining the ranks of forum members who seem to think that those of us who aren’t experts in relation to the management of this pandemic should have our observations belittled, dismissed or patronised?


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## drdel (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			He may well be right. But in terms of a general discussion about a very complex global pandemic, which is taking place on a golf forum largely not populated by statistical and medical experts, his point is actually rather pointless.

EDIT: Or are you also joining the ranks of forum members who seem to think that those of us who aren’t experts in relation to the management of this pandemic should have our observations belittled, dismissed or patronised?
		
Click to expand...

Many posts have made disparaging comments about the scientists, medics and modellers, unchallenged this risks perpetuating myths. It has nothing to do with belittling, insulting or dismissing the opinions of anyone.


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

drdel said:



			Many posts have made disparaging comments about the scientists, medics and modellers, unchallenged this risks perpetuating myths. It has nothing to do with belittling, insulting or dismissing the opinions of anyone.
		
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I must assume that you have at least one contributor on your ignore list, then!!


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## Hobbit (Dec 28, 2021)

drdel said:



			It would be a pretty crap scientist who only did what other non-experts wanted!

A good analyst, scientist or modeller would build the stimulated environment from their knowledge and the lacuna of evidence in the field. The testing would look at how well it represents the current knowns and then by taking values to the left and right of arc and probabilities associated with the independent variables attempt to get at some of the known unknowns.

No expert I know would be led by the nose and model/simulate nonsensical scenarios.
		
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You were doing great till you came up the (pompous?) “known unknowns.” “Stimulated environment,” really…

Pardon my ignorance but that just reads as someone trying to be clever, and failing.


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

adam6177 said:



			My mum was a nurse for a little over 40 years....she worked on geriatric ward looking after old people and there are 2 main things that stick in my mind:

1. She saw more old men's Willies than I've had hot dinners.

2. Flu/pneumonia was always known as "old man's best friend" amongst the nurses..... People in latter stages of life and with often little quality/poor health were " done a favour" by contracting it. 

This may be seen as morbid by some, but she dealt with life and death more often than any of us should ever have to, and with that comes a cold sense of matter of fact.

I see a future now where each winter a covid style virus will become the new friend.
		
Click to expand...

Just remember this post when you get to that age - 1. If you can...2. If you make it that far!


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

Ethan said:



			See, there is the problem. Your sense of manhood seems to be threatened if everyone does not agree with you, so you feel the need to throw in a little barb. That is a sign of inadequacy and/or self-loathing. I think you belittle, dismiss and patronise yourself with some of your comments. Therapy might help, and if not, perhaps surgery.
		
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Please, please tell me you can see the breathtaking hypocrisy in every single word of this post! 

Absolutely staggering.


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			That’s nice.

So how does that help the 95% or more on this forum that this doesn’t apply to?
		
Click to expand...

It doesn't!

But it''s so bleeding frustrating that such 'sheep' can be controlled by news media!


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## Billysboots (Dec 28, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			It doesn't!

But it''s so bleeding frustrating that such 'sheep' can be controlled by news media!
		
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Frustrating as it may be, that’s always the danger of trying to debate a subject as complex as this on an Internet forum packed with people from diverse, largely non-expert backgrounds!

It’s equally frustrating to be someone who doesn’t possess the knowledge, and I am happy to hold my hand up, and see some of the responses from the so-called experts. So it cuts both ways.


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## D-S (Dec 28, 2021)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475911843013177345

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475911852752318472
London numbers appear to be following the pattern set by Gauteng.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Frustrating as it may be, that’s always the danger of trying to debate a subject as complex as this on an Internet forum packed with people from diverse, largely non-expert backgrounds!

It’s equally frustrating to be someone who doesn’t possess the knowledge, and I am happy to hold my hand up, and see some of the responses from the so-called experts. So it cuts both ways.
		
Click to expand...

One of the most frustrating things I find with the handling of this pandemic? Its discussed without political input. That I totally understand.

 I look forward to the public enquiry. And the subsequent fallout on here over that.

That said, Ave not been feeling much festive love on the forum the last few days 😖


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## Captainron (Dec 28, 2021)

As an update on the old lady back home. She’s fine and bored out of her skull. Omicron is like the Tottenham of viruses. Not that potent


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That said, Ave not been feeling much festive love on the forum the last few days 😖
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Making me wonder about the mental health benefits of being here. Only a small number of people that look for an argument in any post but dragging the whole place down


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## Ethan (Dec 28, 2021)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475911843013177345

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1475911852752318472
London numbers appear to be following the pattern set by Gauteng.
		
Click to expand...


Those numbers look positive, but need to be treated with caution due to testing numbers which are affected by kit availability and Christmas numbers variability.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 28, 2021)

@Ethan and @Billysboots 
Please put your handbags away and stop waving your appendages at each other

Thank you


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## Tashyboy (Dec 28, 2021)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Totally agree. Making me wonder about the mental health benefits of being here. Only a small number of people that look for an argument in any post but dragging the whole place down
		
Click to expand...

Ave been riddled with COVID. Ave seen three people since December 23rd. I would of hoped to spend a bit more time talking rammel on the forum. Seeing how some of he threads have gone. I have avoided being tipped over the edge and given a few threads a miss.


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## adam6177 (Dec 28, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Just remember this post when you get to that age - 1. If you can...2. If you make it that far! 

Click to expand...

Why would I forget it?


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## Foxholer (Dec 28, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			...
So how does that help the 95% or more on this forum that this doesn’t apply to?
		
Click to expand...

As, perhaps, part of the 5% (a Statistician by education; IT by training and vocation - including a period with my Dept of Statistics) I'd suggest you just live with what the Govt deems best for you. They are actually trying to do the best for the country, under some pretty severe circumstances. But have no feeling of guilt voting them out at the earliest opportunity if that's how you really feel! That's just politics (oops!)!

The most important thing though is....Trust the Press at least 20% less than you trust the Government! They have a completely different focus - and it's NOT the betterment of the overall population!


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## Captainron (Dec 28, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			That said, Ave not been feeling much festive love on the forum the last few days 😖
		
Click to expand...

Maybe it was better last year when you were over in Mexico and tequila’d up to the eye balls?


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 28, 2021)

Thread locked again


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## PNWokingham (Dec 29, 2021)

This is encouraging. We are not seeing a massive jump in hospitalisations due to omicron that some experts expected. Of the 6245 beds occupied by covid patients on 21 Dec, nearly 30% are "incidental" covid - ie they are in for something else but tested positive. The total 6245 was only up by 259 the previosus week and only 45 of this increase (circa 20%) were admitted because of covid.  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...hould-treated-caution-many-patients-admitted/


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## SocketRocket (Dec 29, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			This is encouraging. We are not seeing a massive jump in hospitalisations due to omicron that some experts expected. Of the 6245 beds occupied by covid patients on 21 Dec, nearly 30% are "incidental" covid - ie they are in for something else but tested positive. The total 6245 was only up by 259 the previosus week and only 45 of this increase (circa 20%) were admitted because of covid.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...hould-treated-caution-many-patients-admitted/

Click to expand...

When restrictions were dropped earlier this year Covid related hospitalisations were around 1,000, they're now over 8,000 but still low in relation to the increase in infections.  The vaccination program has been a fantastic success story and it will be interesting to see how the new antiviral drugs affect the hospitalisation rates.


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## hovis (Dec 29, 2021)

I'm currently isolating with Covid.  I'm assuming I have omicron as I don't have any symptoms.  I did go on my treadmill and think "stuff that" after 5 minutes though.   My friend's and colleagues who had covid earlier in the year had it bad in comparison despite being double jabbed.
Could the new strain act as a fire break?  Does anyone know if omicron antibodies help against other variants?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			This is encouraging. We are not seeing a massive jump in hospitalisations due to omicron that some experts expected. Of the 6245 beds occupied by covid patients on 21 Dec, nearly 30% are "incidental" covid - ie they are in for something else but tested positive. The total 6245 was only up by 259 the previosus week and only 45 of this increase (circa 20%) were admitted because of covid. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...hould-treated-caution-many-patients-admitted/

Click to expand...

This is indeed good news. Fingers crossed it continues once the effects of Xmas mixing is added to the numbers.

I think it's definitely time for the number of cases to be downgraded in terms of importance in the figures. Yes, they will affect workplaces with people isolating but don't seem to be correlating to hospitalisations and deaths. 

As an example the rolling 7 day average for total cases in the UK is 872.5 per 100k population, in Germany it is 306.3 and in France 551.9. The rolling 7 day average for deaths in those countries is UK - 84.4, Germany - 238 and France - 177.4. We are testing far more than other countries so will be finding more cases but fortunately those cases do not seem to be leading to deaths. We have similar vaccine rollout success as the other two countries but are seeing far fewer deaths.

Over the last 7 days Germany have had almost three times as many deaths as UK and France twice as many. Is there any logical reason for this with Omicron being milder than previous versions? Is it just because Germany and France did better at the start of the pandemic in protecting the vulnerable and therefore have more in that category alive now who are being seriously affected, whereas we had very high numbers at the start and therefore have fewer vulnerable people now to get badly affected? In the early stages our numbers of deaths was horrendous compared to most other countries in Europe (bar probably Italy) but now others such as France and Germany are, unfortunately, catching up.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2021)

hovis said:



			I'm currently isolating with Covid.  I'm assuming I have omicron as I don't have any symptoms.  I did go on my treadmill and think "stuff that" after 5 minutes though.   My friend's and colleagues who had covid earlier in the year had it bad in comparison despite being double jabbed.
Could the new strain act as a fire break?  *Does anyone know if omicron antibodies help against other variants?*

Click to expand...

The short answer is, Yes - possibly. Only in the early stages of the science on this but the early findings look promising.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/28/health/covid-omicron-antibodies-delta.html


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## Blue in Munich (Dec 29, 2021)

Mrs BiM has provided a second negative test and is thus released from custody.  I'm not yet sure if this is something to gladden the heart or a random irritation, having got used to sole ownership of the remote...


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2021)

Day 7 and still positive 😳😖


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## Imurg (Dec 29, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Day 7 and still positive 😳😖
		
Click to expand...

Stay positive but be negative.....if you see what I mean.....

USA have cut the isolation ti e down to 5 days and many are calling for it here...
Surely 5 days isn't enough....Tashy is an example.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 29, 2021)

No isolation at all would be far better and we could just all go about our lives as we choose for ourselves…..


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## DRW (Dec 29, 2021)

For the people who have used loads of LFTs, something to do


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is indeed good news. Fingers crossed it continues once the effects of Xmas mixing is added to the numbers.

I think it's definitely time for the number of cases to be downgraded in terms of importance in the figures. Yes, they will affect workplaces with people isolating but don't seem to be correlating to hospitalisations and deaths.

As an example the rolling 7 day average for total cases in the UK is 872.5 per 100k population, in Germany it is 306.3 and in France 551.9. The rolling 7 day average for deaths in those countries is UK - 84.4, Germany - 238 and France - 177.4. We are testing far more than other countries so will be finding more cases but fortunately those cases do not seem to be leading to deaths. We have similar vaccine rollout success as the other two countries but are seeing far fewer deaths.

Over the last 7 days Germany have had almost three times as many deaths as UK and France twice as many. Is there any logical reason for this with Omicron being milder than previous versions? Is it just because Germany and France did better at the start of the pandemic in protecting the vulnerable and therefore have more in that category alive now who are being seriously affected, whereas we had very high numbers at the start and therefore have fewer vulnerable people now to get badly affected? In the early stages our numbers of deaths was horrendous compared to most other countries in Europe (bar probably Italy) but now others such as France and Germany are, unfortunately, catching up.
		
Click to expand...

Those reasons probably all apply. Basically, it is a degree of catch-up. The UK front-loaded its mortality, and people can't die again. Germany currently has high death rates in the most elderly groups who have already been savaged here. That excess was greatest in the initial peak, but also to some degree at the start of this year too.

Omicron is milder, but still not mild, and if the common cold or flu can push a vulnerable person over, then Omicron certainly can. Although the initial upper respiratory infection is generally milder, we don't know that the secondary inflammatory complications are proportionately milder, and that is what kills most younger and middle aged people who die of Covid.

Greater testing is part of the explanation of more cases here, although we are running short of testing kit here, despite many expensive deals with companies of varying reputation.

Case definition is another issue. The UK counts cases based on positive tests, not clinical presentations. Germany does the opposite, so since the clinically symptomatic cases are only a fraction of those who test positive, it really has a lot more "true" cases and the death rate is higher for that reason.

These two graphics use slightly different scales, Germany has a population approx 24% larger than the UK:


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2021)

DRW said:



			For the people who have used loads of LFTs, something to do  

Any chance you could make me a pub, gonna be next year before I see one 😡

View attachment 40168

Click to expand...


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## Tashyboy (Dec 29, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Stay positive but be negative.....if you see what I mean.....

USA have cut the isolation ti e down to 5 days and many are calling for it here...
Surely 5 days isn't enough....*Tashy is an example*.
		
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missis T said “ your deffo an example “ 😳


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## Foxholer (Dec 29, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			This is encouraging. We are not seeing a massive jump in hospitalisations due to omicron that some experts expected. Of the 6245 beds occupied by covid patients on 21 Dec, nearly 30% are "incidental" covid - ie they are in for something else but tested positive. The total 6245 was only up by 259 the previosus week and only 45 of this increase (circa 20%) were admitted because of covid. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...hould-treated-caution-many-patients-admitted/

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Possibly good news - and it's likely confirmation - 'broadcast' some time ago - that Omicron will (percentage-wise) require fewer hospitalisations - thus less strain on NHS resources. But I'm not entirely convinced that excluding 'incidental' covid is _fully_ valid. I'd be pretty certain that 'having' Covid likely contributed to why some/many had to be admitted!
Also remember with that there's a lag of 4-5 days between many/most of the cases being identified and any subsequent hospitalisation. So, apart from the 'incidental' cases, that snapshot corresponded a couple of days before admissions began to rise significantly. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare


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## Foxholer (Dec 29, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			No isolation at all would be far better and we could just all go about our lives as we choose for ourselves…..
		
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Except for those 'we' infect who _do_ require hospitalisation - which will likely be considerably more than now. Nothing wrong with attempting to get to 'herd immunity', but over time, not 'instantaneously' with consequences for infrastructure.


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## Foxholer (Dec 29, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			This is indeed good news. Fingers crossed it continues once the effects of Xmas mixing is added to the numbers.

I think it's definitely time for the number of cases to be downgraded in terms of importance in the figures. Yes, they will affect workplaces with people isolating but don't seem to be correlating to hospitalisations and deaths.

*As an example the rolling 7 day average for total cases in the UK is 872.5 per 100k population, in Germany it is 306.3 and in France 551.9. The rolling 7 day average for deaths in those countries is UK - 84.4, Germany - 238 and France - 177.4. *We are testing far more than other countries so will be finding more cases but fortunately those cases do not seem to be leading to deaths. We have similar vaccine rollout success as the other two countries but are seeing far fewer deaths.
Where are you getting those
Over the last 7 days Germany have had almost three times as many deaths as UK and France twice as many. Is there any logical reason for this with Omicron being milder than previous versions? Is it just because Germany and France did better at the start of the pandemic in protecting the vulnerable and therefore have more in that category alive now who are being seriously affected, whereas we had very high numbers at the start and therefore have fewer vulnerable people now to get badly affected? In the early stages our numbers of deaths was horrendous compared to most other countries in Europe (bar probably Italy) but now others such as France and Germany are, unfortunately, catching up.
		
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Where are you getting those numbers from? Only a couple bear any resemblence to the numbers on this chart - even having for converting from Weekly to Daily! https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/weekly-trends/#weekly_table Note: Table info will change day to day, so 'conclusions' are only valid today!
As for causes of differences, I suspect the percentages of Omicron vs Delta are the differences between the countries numbers. If you look at the %change columns (over previous 7 days  and on the above chart), you'll see UK cases increase, but deaths decrease; Spain cases double but Deaths almost static. France (and Italy) similar but less pronounced. Germany Cases and Deaths reduced almost equally (legislation?).

So, to me, it's likely that the prevalence of Omicron is at 'a different point in the curve' with UK being ahead of Spain ahead of France and Italy and German yet to be affected by Omicron surge.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2021)

Foxholer said:



*Where are you getting those numbers from?* Only a couple bear any resemblence to the numbers on this chart https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/weekly-trends/#weekly_table
As for causes of differences, I suspect the percentages of Omicron vs Delta are the differences between the countries numbers. If you look at the %change columns (over previous 7 days), you'll see UK cases increase, but deaths decrease; Spain cases double but Deaths almost static. France (and Italy) similar but less pronounced. Germany Cases and Deaths reduced almost equally (legislation?).

So, to me, it's likely that the prevalence of Omicron is at 'a different point in the curve' with UK being ahead of Spain ahead of France and Italy and German yet to be affected by Omicron surge.
		
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This one for the case rates.....

https://www.statista.com/statistics...ates-in-the-past-7-days-in-europe-by-country/

And this one for the deaths....

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-7-day


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## Foxholer (Dec 29, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			This one for the case rates.....

https://www.statista.com/statistics...ates-in-the-past-7-days-in-europe-by-country/

And this one for the deaths....

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-7-day

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H'mm. Getting data from different sources is fraught with potential/possible 'accuracy' issues!
The Worldometers one I refered to above has all the numbers (and charts) in a single place and has more than enough flexibility (except, perhaps, only 2 days Daily history) to use as a single ref.
Edit.....
My comments about different countries being at different stages of Omicron vs Delta still stands.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 29, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. Getting data from different sources is fraught with potential/possible 'accuracy' issues! 
The Worldometers one I refered to above has all the numbers (and charts) in a single place and has more than enough flexibility (except, perhaps, only 2 days Daily history) to use as a single ref.
		
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Will give it a look. I Googled "Covid deaths 7 day average by country" and something similar for cases and got those two links.


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## Ethan (Dec 29, 2021)

This is a graphic taken from Our World in Data. It shows excess deaths, but can be read as a picture of the time dynamic of the pandemic in UK vs Germany (started sooner here, Germany catching up a bit now), but also as a crude measure of the overall impact - UK around 140k excess deaths out of 67 million, Germany around 110k out of 83 million. That UK number also lines up with the total official Covid death numbers, suggesting that if any deaths were counted as attributed to Covid but really not due to it, there was probably a similar number moving in the opposite direction, whether of direct or indirect causation.


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## D-S (Dec 29, 2021)

Case rates beat their daily rate record by 50% and this thread doesn’t light up like a Christmas Tree?
mmmmmmmmm………………….


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## Foxholer (Dec 29, 2021)

D-S said:



			Case rates beat their daily rate record by 50% and this thread doesn’t light up like a Christmas Tree?
mmmmmmmmm………………….
		
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Case rates haven't been the 'stat of most concern' for quite some time.
With Delta, case increases forwarned likely death increases; not so with Omicron.
Mind you, stats of 'Serious/Critical' aka ICU/Ventilated cases hasn't changed for 3 consecutive days because of Christmas. Deaths (57) are definitely reported and down on a week ago.


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## drdel (Dec 29, 2021)

Bunch of anti-vaxxers attacked a vaccination centre in Milton Keynes,  and stole  stuff. Words fail me.


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## Foxholer (Dec 29, 2021)

drdel said:



			Bunch of anti-vaxxers attacked a vaccination centre in Milton Keynes,  and stole  stuff.* Words fail me*.
		
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Obviously not. 
But it's certainly understand some folk! I'd be interested to actually find out the reasons why they are anti-vax though. Reports about the US ones leave me wondering how the 'richest country in the world' can have so many idiots in it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2021)

drdel said:



			Bunch of anti-vaxxers attacked a vaccination centre in Milton Keynes,  and stole  stuff. Words fail me.
		
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Seems they were trying to target the centre where Johnson was going or went but instead went to a testing centre - seems a few vigilante’s decided to dish out some stuff to them


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2021)

Day 8 and a negative test. Tomorrow am singing this 😉
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj96Zudt4v1AhV6Q0EAHfVnB-4QyCl6BAgGEAM&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM0Neo85Rj4&usg=AOvVaw26Qm6LfFXTDcPVo2Ya-m8r


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## hovis (Dec 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Day 8 and a negative test. Tomorrow am singing this 😉
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj96Zudt4v1AhV6Q0EAHfVnB-4QyCl6BAgGEAM&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM0Neo85Rj4&usg=AOvVaw26Qm6LfFXTDcPVo2Ya-m8r

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Did you tests start to fade away or was is strong line one day and gone the next?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2021)

hovis said:



			Did you tests start to fade away or was is strong line one day and gone the next?
		
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The first test I did was very faint positive after 14 minutes. I went straight out for a PCR which confimed this the following day. After five days I did a test and it was positive after a few seconds. A strong positive if there is such a thing. Day six exactly the same. Yesterday it was very faint. Today lovely news indeed.
Missis T has not had one single positive LFT test. Her initial was negative. But her PCR showed positive. 
We found it interesting that a scientist said a few days ago she would encourage people when doing a LFT to swab the back of there throat as in some people who have COVID, it has not reached there nose but is in there throats.


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## RichA (Dec 30, 2021)

I haven't seen a throat swab in an LFT kit for months. They've all been the nostril variety.
If I tried to reach my tonsils with one of those shorter sticks I'd probably end up in A&E after swallowing it.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2021)

RichA said:



			I haven't seen a throat swab in an LFT kit for months. They've all been the nostril variety.
If I tried to reach my tonsils with one of those shorter sticks I'd probably end up in A&E after swallowing it.
		
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That’s exactly what the scientist said, even though she said using the swab ( on your throat) could help. It is a bit short 😖


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## hovis (Dec 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			The first test I did was very faint positive after 14 minutes. I went straight out for a PCR which confimed this the following day. After five days I did a test and it was positive after a few seconds. A strong positive if there is such a thing. Day six exactly the same. Yesterday it was very faint. Today lovely news indeed.
Missis T has not had one single positive LFT test. Her initial was negative. But her PCR showed positive.
We found it interesting that a scientist said a few days ago she would encourage people when doing a LFT to swab the back of there throat as in some people who have COVID, it has not reached there nose but is in there throats.
		
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My wife's lft test are nasal only and I show up as negative.   My tests are nose and throat and I get a propa strong line.   Day 4 at the minute 😕


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2021)

hovis said:



			My wife's lft test are nasal only and I show up as negative.   My tests are nose and throat and I get a propa strong line.   Day 4 at the minute 😕
		
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Yesterday was a years anniversary from when I found out I had covid the first time. This year has been no where near as bad.
Stay safe me man


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## larmen (Dec 30, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Yesterday was a years anniversary from when I found out I had covid the first time. This year has been no where near as bad.
Stay safe me man
		
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Is that built up immunity? Or just a less severe strain?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 30, 2021)

larmen said:



			Is that built up immunity? Or just a less severe strain?
		
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To be honest Larmen I think it is a cocktail of everything. I have had both jabs and a booster. Plus probably built up or had remembered antibodies. My limited knowledge nudges me towards three jabs and previous covid helped my body to recognise I had the Virus so helped to fight it earlier. On top of that am sure a less severe strain massively contributed.
My concern for the future is if a strain develops that is as infectious as Omicron but severe like Delta. Hope that helps.

That aside I was pillow talking with Missis T last night and talk got around to the names given to the specific COVID strains. Mainly Delta and Omicron. But what other strains have been named, or have they. I remember the Kent strain, but that’s not Greek and was the initial strain given a Greek name.


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## larmen (Dec 30, 2021)

I thought the jumped from Delta, but there was a lot in between


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2021)

larmen said:



			I thought the jumped from Delta, but there was a lot in between
		
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Only the Variants Of Concern (VOCs) make the popular media, alpha, beta, gamma, delta and omicron so far.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

It seems like LFT kits are the new toilet rolls.


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2021)

London Christmas parties, nights out enjoying normal life - no covid.

Get back to the countryside and relax over christmas playing golf - Positive. 

VERY annoying.


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## Foxholer (Dec 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Only the Variants Of Concern (VOCs) make the popular media, alpha, beta, gamma, delta and omicron so far.
		
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Halfway through the alphabet with 'recognised' variants. Could be that a change of style to WHO designation for variants will be required soon. Hopefully not of course!


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## hovis (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems like LFT kits are the new toilet rolls.
		
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The one's we use (NHS box) have been excellent.  I can only think of one or two that had a negative when they was possitve.   We've had alot of covid in the fire service too.  I think alot of negatives are down to people not testing/swabbing correctly


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

hovis said:



			The one's we use (NHS box) have been excellent.  I can only think of one or two that had a negative when they was possitve.   We've had alot of covid in the fire service too.  I think alot of negatives are down to people not testing/swabbing correctly
		
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I meant people hording them 😉


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## Billysboots (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems like LFT kits are the new toilet rolls.
		
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Have you tried wiping your backside on one? Messy. 😇


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

Billysboots said:



			Have you tried wiping your backside on one? Messy. 😇
		
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I'll take your word for it 😀


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## hovis (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			I meant people hording them 😉
		
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Oh 😂.


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## larmen (Dec 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Only the Variants Of Concern (VOCs) make the popular media, alpha, beta, gamma, delta and omicron so far.
		
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My working theory was that after Delta and the impact on Delta Airlines they avoided the letters that are used by big companies and went to the obscure Omnicron. But then that list appeared.
I wonder if Omega, the watch maker, already has a campaign in place for when it is ‘their turn’. Kappa, Italian sports manufacturer, got lucky that no one mentioned that variant.
Of course, nobody got hit as much as Corona.


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## GreiginFife (Dec 30, 2021)

larmen said:



			My working theory was that after Delta and the impact on Delta Airlines they avoided the letters that are used by big companies and went to the obscure Omnicron. But then that list appeared.
I wonder if Omega, the watch maker, already has a campaign in place for when it is ‘their turn’. Kappa, Italian sports manufacturer, got lucky that no one mentioned that variant.
Of course, nobody got hit as much as Corona.
		
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LRRR certainly wants a word with them…


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 30, 2021)




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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:








Click to expand...

Hmm! Mine said LTWTL


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2021)

DanFST said:



			London Christmas parties, nights out enjoying normal life - no covid.

Get back to the countryside and relax over christmas playing golf - Positive.

VERY annoying.
		
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Do you think one may just be connected to the other?

Case numbers in London rising fast, but test positive rate rising as well, which means that the true number of cases is accelerating faster than the numbers suggest. Test kits now maxed out, so positivity rate the key number. Ireland hitting 40% test positive rate already. Case numbers highest in young, but starting to kick up in over 60s, which carries much higher risk of hospitalisations. Hospitalisations around half of Jan 21 peak, so one "doubling" away. Deaths still ,likely to be lower, but NHS pressures could still be a serious challenge and displace NHS resources needed elsewhere. The plan announced today for Nightingale "step-down" units is laughable. Most NHS hospitals can' staff existing structures without new ones being created to give the impression that something is being done.


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2021)

Using Nightingale hubs for bed blocking patients who require less care would be a good use. Hopefully there might be someone in the NHS capable of thinking outside the box.


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## IanM (Dec 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Using Nightingale hubs for bed blocking patients who require less care would be a good use. Hopefully there might be someone in the NHS capable of thinking outside the box.
		
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No.  Apparently, they are so bored and short of stuff to do, they have to fill their time with frivolities


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Using Nightingale hubs for bed blocking patients who require less care would be a good use. Hopefully there might be someone in the NHS capable of thinking outside the box.
		
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If hospitals are currently short-staffed and more bed spaces are created off-site, where there will also be a need for extra infrastructure staff, just how will those bed spaces be supported?


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Using Nightingale hubs for bed blocking patients who require less care would be a good use. Hopefully there might be someone in the NHS capable of thinking outside the box.
		
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And who is going to staff these step-down facilities? It is a vanity project to give the appearance of something being done.

The better question is how can a policy that on the one hand is setting up extra crisis capacity yet on the other is doing nothing to mitigate the risk of NYE parties be reconciled?


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It is a vanity project to give the appearance of something being down.
		
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Im sure this will be some peoples opinions, mine is that used properly it could relieve the pressure from many front line staff. The original Nightingales failed because NHS Trusts refused to work as one NHS and pool there resources but more like individual trusts.

Like you, I’m not in a position to see which way well paid administrators will organise the next problem they will face.


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			If hospitals are currently short-staffed and more bed spaces are created off-site, where there will also be a need for extra infrastructure staff, just how will those bed spaces be supported?
		
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Surely the staff requirement for patients just awaiting discharge doesn’t require the same level of support as genuine sick people in hospital.


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Im sure this will be some peoples opinions, mine is that used properly it could relieve the pressure from many front line staff. The original Nightingales failed because NHS Trusts refused to work as one NHS and pool there resources but more like individual trusts.

Like you, I’m not in a position to see which way well paid administrators will organise the next problem they will face.
		
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Speak for yourself. I know plenty of people in front-line care positions, and in parallel am in a thread on this very issue on a doctors forum - plot spoiler, they all think it is terrible idea which will increase problems rather than relieve them. One doctor posted _"We are one of the sites. Genuinely can't believe they are still throwing cash at these money pits. There are NO STAFF anywhere" _- but if administrators have come up with a way of defying the truism that splitting patients onto two sites is more costly in terms of staff numbers, they should announce the details of this groundbreaking work forthwith.

There is a precedent here. The previous Nightingale hospitals stole staff and resources from existing NHS provision, and were mostly empty. Doing it then may have been a sensible precaution that proved not to be needed, but no sensible person would believe the same will not happen again, especially with much higher levels of staff illness and higher levels of staff pissed-offness.

A much better policy would be to reduce the number of people who will go into hospital in the first place. A circuit breaker before or right after Christmas could have done that, but instead plans are being made for the consequences of knowingly failing to take the necessary steps at the right time. Incredible.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Surely the staff requirement for patients just awaiting discharge doesn’t require the same level of support as genuine sick people in hospital.
		
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The answer to your closed question is, obviously, less staff will be required for those awaiting discharge. However, you don’t seem to have taken on board the point that there’s already a staffing shortage, and your answer is to take staff out.

If you increase the number of critical care beds, you’ll pretty much need a member of staff for each bed. They will come from current ward staff. The wards will then be short but some staff will come from outpatient clinics. And what about Facilities staff, pharmacy staff, catering staff, portering staff?

But having created even greater staffing shortages within the hospital, the answer is to take more out for the low care Nightingales, really?


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The answer to your closed question is, obviously, less staff will be required for those awaiting discharge. However, you don’t seem to have taken on board the point that there’s already a staffing shortage, and your answer is to take staff out.

If you increase the number of critical care beds, you’ll pretty much need a member of staff for each bed. They will come from current ward staff. The wards will then be short but some staff will come from outpatient clinics. And what about Facilities staff, pharmacy staff, catering staff, portering staff?

But having created even greater staffing shortages within the hospital, the answer is to take more out for the low care Nightingales, really?
		
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Was the plan to increase critical care beds, must have missed that which would be strange as critical care numbers, thankfully, appear to be fairly stable

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Was the plan to increase critical care beds, must have missed that which would be strange as critical care numbers, thankfully, appear to be fairly stable

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

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They are planned to be "step-down" facilities, i.e. pre-discharge. Still need staffing though.


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## DanFST (Dec 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Do you think one may just be connected to the other?
		
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Highly doubt it, left London on the 17th, can't imagine it would take this long to show up.


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## upsidedown (Dec 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			The answer to your closed question is, obviously, less staff will be required for those awaiting discharge. However, you don’t seem to have taken on board the point that there’s already a staffing shortage, and your answer is to take staff out.

If you increase the number of critical care beds, you’ll pretty much need a member of staff for each bed. They will come from current ward staff. The wards will then be short but some staff will come from outpatient clinics. And what about Facilities staff, pharmacy staff, catering staff, portering staff?

But having created even greater staffing shortages within the hospital, the answer is to take more out for the low care Nightingales, really?
		
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HiD despite retiring back last year still tries to do 5 shifts a month and for the last couple of months the whats app group for her ward is constantly pinged for nurses to cover shifts , in all her 42 years never known staff shortages like we're experiencing now. Talking to friends alas also replicated through the trust .
They've no idea where the staff for the Nightingales are going to be magiced from


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			They are planned to be "step-down" facilities, i.e. pre-discharge. Still need staffing though.
		
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Isn't one of the problems that critical care beds are being used by patients who although no longer critically ill have no recovery beds available to go to, thus blocking ICU facilities.    It must be easier to care for people in recovery and necessitate a lower ratio of staff to patients.   I do understand it's not a perfect situation but surely they can call on the military and other private resources if needs must.  I know my mother worked as a nursing auxiliary with the red cross during the war.

Obviously not an expert opinion but sometimes when up against it we have to take emergency measures.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Was the plan to increase critical care beds, must have missed that which would be strange as critical care numbers, thankfully, appear to be fairly stable

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare

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You still haven’t answered where these extra staff are coming from. The NHS is short staffed now, and the plan takes staff out of hospitals. Simple, unambiguous question - where do you get the extra staff from?


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't one of the problems that critical care beds are being used by patients who although no longer critically ill have no recovery beds available to go to, thus blocking ICU facilities.    It must be easier to care for people in recovery and necessitate a lower ratio of staff to patients.   I do understand it's not a perfect situation but surely they can call on the military and other private resources if needs must.  I know my mother worked as a nursing auxiliary with the red cross during the war.

Obviously not an expert opinion but sometimes when up against it we have to take emergency measures.
		
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Unfortunately, a major issue is also training. Let’s pinch staff from Outpatients clinics. Staff are being tasked NOW to do work they’re not trained for. The answer isn’t to bring in more untrained people. Hell, you might as well phone Joe Bloggs Plumbing and see if he can cover a few nursing shifts.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			It seems like LFT kits are the new toilet rolls.
		
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Have not been able to find any LFTs locally today at home, and weren’t able to find any up at MiLs earlier this week.  Pharmacist today said they hadnt had any for over a week, and as there is a single source of supply it is first come first served…pot luck. 

Hopefully the promised millions of kits due to be made available from tomorrow will relieve the problem…though it seems inevitable that more testing (as will be driven up by those who have been looking for tests for days) in next few days could result in a significant kick-up in number of positives cover these days and it might therefore be hard to draw conclusions on the underlying trend.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Unfortunately, a major issue is also training. Let’s pinch staff from Outpatients clinics. Staff are being tasked NOW to do work they’re not trained for. The answer isn’t to bring in more untrained people. *Hell, you might as well phone Joe Bloggs Plumbing and see if he can cover a few nursing shifts*.
		
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You know that's not what I suggested.  There is no simple answer but sometimes you just have to make the best out of what's available.  As I suggested there's the military (If we had a fairly major military crisis where it resulted in large casualties then we would need to either bring in emergency measures or leave them untreated) In a national emergency we would need to take emergency measures like conscripting private medical staff, it's the critical care that's the priority.  We are not talking about everyday situations but emergency situations that would be necessary to stop the health service folding.


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't one of the problems that critical care beds are being used by patients who although no longer critically ill have no recovery beds available to go to, thus blocking ICU facilities.    It must be easier to care for people in recovery and necessitate a lower ratio of staff to patients.   I do understand it's not a perfect situation but surely they can call on the military and other private resources if needs must.  I know my mother worked as a nursing auxiliary with the red cross during the war.

Obviously not an expert opinion but sometimes when up against it we have to take emergency measures.
		
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ICU occupancy is down with Omicron, that isn't really the pinch point, regular beds and staffing them is.

More beds always only ever means more staff. Floor space and bedstead and mattresses usually are not a problem. ICU beds need extra kit, sure, but they need extra staff more than that. If you can find enough staff,. you can find places to put people. These Nightingale hospitals are largely for show and are not an efficient use of currently stretched resources. Given that they are pre-discharge patients, then the staff are being taken away from sicker patients. A bad bad idea.

According to Sky News, Professor Andrew Hayward, who sits on the New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (NERVTAG), suggested it was "odd" that new Nightingale "surge hubs" are to be set up in England to increase NHS capacity, at the same time that people were not being discouraged from having New Year's Eve parties. "_I find it odd really that we're in a situation where we're worried enough about the wave of Omicron to build new Nightingale capacity,_" he said. "_But we're not worried to suggest to people that New Year's Eve parties are not a good idea"._


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## Ethan (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You know that's not what I suggested.  There is no simple answer but sometimes you just have to make the best out of what's available.  As I suggested there's the military (If we had a fairly major military crisis where it resulted in large casualties then we would need to either bring in emergency measures or leave them untreated) In a national emergency we would need to take emergency measures like conscripting private medical staff, it's the critical care that's the priority.  We are not talking about everyday situations but emergency situations that would be necessary to stop the health service folding.
		
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What we should do in the face of an impending crisis is act to reduce it, not encourage it.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

Ethan said:



			What we should do in the face of an impending crisis is act to reduce it, not encourage it.
		
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I agree.


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## Foxholer (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't one of the problems that critical care beds are being used by patients who although no longer critically ill have no recovery beds available to go to, thus blocking ICU facilities.    It must be easier to care for people in recovery and necessitate a lower ratio of staff to patients.   I do understand it's not a perfect situation but surely they can call on the military and other private resources if needs must.  I know my mother worked as a nursing auxiliary with the red cross during the war.

Obviously not an expert opinion but sometimes when up against it we have to take emergency measures.
		
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That MAY be the case, but it would be as a result of the greater issue that, in spite of Omicron being less likely to require hospitalisation, the sheer quantity of cases means that there's been a significant increased demand for hospital beds. Graphs in this document show that hospitalisations increased by 50% from mid Dec to just before Christmas! https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
Numbers in Ventilated beds increased too, but only by 1 or 2%. Still way below the peak of a year ago though (<25%).


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## chellie (Dec 30, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Havenot been able to find any locally today at home, and weren’t able to find any up at MiLs earlier this week.  Pharmacist today said they had t had any delivered for over a week, and as there is a single source of supply it is first come first served…pot luck.  

Hopefully the promised millions of kits due to be made available from tomorrow will relieve the problem…though it seems inevitable that more testing (as will be driven up by those who have been looking for tests for days) in next few days could result in a significant kick-up in number of positives cover these days and it might therefore be hard to draw conclusions on the underlying trend.
		
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They have been able to be ordered online though. Just have to keep trying.


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## road2ruin (Dec 30, 2021)

We’ve got NYE at ours tomorrow, 4 families which is 13 in total. The original plan was LFT’s for everyone in the morning however with no tests available we’ve had to go old school….”Do you feel well? Y/N”.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			You know that's not what I suggested.  There is no simple answer but sometimes you just have to make the best out of what's available.  As I suggested there's the military (If we had a fairly major military crisis where it resulted in large casualties then we would need to either bring in emergency measures or leave them untreated) In a national emergency we would need to take emergency measures like conscripting private medical staff, it's the critical care that's the priority.  We are not talking about everyday situations but emergency situations that would be necessary to stop the health service folding.
		
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During the first wave/spike extra staff were moved from various areas. In effect they were moved up a slot. General nurses might end up in a High Dependency Unit and staff from there or theatres ended up in the extended ICU. Extra equipment was shipped in. Imagine going into work tomorrow and working with one manufacturer’s ventilator and syringe pump, and then the following day being confronted by equipment from another manufacturer. Even basic functions on ventilators are called different things by different manufacturers.

Private medical staff; pretty much every private hospital does elective work. Very, very few private medical staff could drop into a busy hospital dept seamlessly. It’s almost like asking a cabbie to drive an artic.

Using military medics/nurses etc. In a number of areas the military hospitals no longer exist and the staff already work in civilian hospitals. There isn’t the slack.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			That MAY be the case, but it would be as a result of the greater issue that, in spite of Omicron being less likely to require hospitalisation, the sheer quantity of cases means that there's been a significant increased demand for hospital beds. Graphs in this document show that hospitalisations increased by 50% from mid Dec to just before Christmas! https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
Numbers in Ventilated beds increased too, but only by 1 or 2%. Still way below the peak of a year ago though (<25%).
		
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My comments are concerning what could be done should the NHS become overwhelmed with cases, I assume that's what these emergency hospitals are there for.

Looking at hospitalisations they stand at around 8K and have been around that level for a while.  As you point out, numbers on ventilation are way down on a year ago and even then the nightingales weren't used then.   The BBC news tonight was suggesting the doubling of admissions in the last week was dramatic but it's not really high numbers.

Anyhow, my comments were related to the staffing of Nightingales and not current case rates.


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			During the first wave/spike extra staff were moved from various areas. In effect they were moved up a slot. General nurses might end up in a High Dependency Unit and staff from there or theatres ended up in the extended ICU. Extra equipment was shipped in. Imagine going into work tomorrow and working with one manufacturer’s ventilator and syringe pump, and then the following day being confronted by equipment from another manufacturer. Even basic functions on ventilators are called different things by different manufacturers.

Private medical staff; pretty much every private hospital does elective work. Very, very few private medical staff could drop into a busy hospital dept seamlessly. It’s almost like asking a cabbie to drive an artic.

Using military medics/nurses etc. In a number of areas the military hospitals no longer exist and the staff already work in civilian hospitals. There isn’t the slack.
		
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Surely most people being admitted don't go onto ventilators and we are better at treating people than we were a year ago, no one was vaccinated then. 

I don't believe these current nightingales are being made for intensive care but for recovery if needed.  

I've suggested a few times now that where needs must we would have to do what ever we could, as you have to in emergency situations.  What's the alternative other than leaving people to fend for themselves.


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## Foxholer (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			...
Looking at hospitalisations they stand at around 8K and have been around that level for a while....
		
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Try doing a 1month view of the hospitalisations in the document I quoted! You will see the pretty dramatic increase from 26th Dec (Xmas Day is a bit of an aberration) after a gentle increase from low for the month of 7190 on 4th. Pretty rapid climb to 11898 yesterday!


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## 4LEX (Dec 30, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Highly doubt it, left London on the 17th, can't imagine it would take this long to show up.
		
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You're thinking in simple terms although the incubation period can be upto 14 days.

The more people go out and have a laugh in pubs or at parties when cases are sky high, the more they'll spread it, meaning the more likely you are to catch it regardless of the location.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely most people being admitted don't go onto ventilators and we are better at treating people than we were a year ago, no one was vaccinated then.

I don't believe these current nightingales are being made for intensive care but for recovery if needed. 

I've suggested a few times now that where needs must we would have to do what ever we could, as you have to in emergency situations.  What's the alternative other than leaving people to fend for themselves.
		
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Your post #24,001 you say it’s critical care that’s the priority. Make your mind up. Yes provision of one form or another would have to be made for whatever care was required but please don’t think trained medical staff are sitting on a shelf to be called - they’re already full out working.


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## D-S (Dec 30, 2021)

Anyway, good to see average weekly deaths continuing to reduce though.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476252973600854019


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## SocketRocket (Dec 30, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			Your post #24,001 you say it’s critical care that’s the priority. Make your mind up. Yes provision of one form or another would have to be made for whatever care was required but please don’t think trained medical staff are sitting on a shelf to be called - they’re already full out working.
		
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Critical care is the priority, not sure where I suggested otherwise.

I haven't said trained medical staff are sitting on a shelf, have I.  My comments followed on from a discussion on how we could staff a nightingale hospital that was to provide emergency  recovery care should it be needed , I've not suggested we could draft in plumbers or lorry drivers so please can you not suggest it's what I've meant.

I've made some suggestions on how we may be able to provide staff for running after care in a national emergency, nothing else.  If you see something in my posts other than that then it's not what I've intended.


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## Foxholer (Dec 30, 2021)

D-S said:



			Anyway, good to see average weekly deaths continuing to reduce though.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476252973600854019

Click to expand...

Indeed!
Unfortunately, numbers (recorded) have increased consistently since that low (Xmas day, so probably the cause) of 57 and there's a depressing pattern in the 'incomplete' counts for the last 5 days!
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths - set to 1Month view for best view of pattern.


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## DanFST (Dec 31, 2021)

4LEX said:



			You're thinking in simple terms although the incubation period can be upto 14 days.

The more people go out and have a laugh in pubs or at parties when cases are sky high, the more they'll spread it, meaning the more likely you are to catch it regardless of the location.
		
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Just saying I doubt it. Can obviously never be sure. 

Absolutely no signs other than a slightly higher temperature and a bit achy for one day. feel 100% now. Will grab my booster when possible after isolation and then not stress about it for a little bit and party on.


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## ExRabbit (Dec 31, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Just saying I doubt it. Can obviously never be sure.

Absolutely no signs other than a slightly higher temperature and a bit achy for one day. feel 100% now. Will grab my booster when possible after isolation and then not stress about it for a little bit and* party on.*

Click to expand...

Party on?

Are you serious?


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Not really, as far as I’m aware I’m 0 threat for a little bit after having it and being boosted.

I’m 30 and haven’t had a night out without thinking of covid in almost 2 years.

I will be enjoying myself for a couple weeks
		
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You are not zero threat. You may well not get a clinical infection if the beasties leap onto you, but you can distribute it around. 

These NYE parties are going to cause a load of superspreader events.


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Not really, as far as I’m aware I’m 0 threat for a little bit after having it and being boosted.

I’m 30 and haven’t had a night out without thinking of covid in almost 2 years.

I will be enjoying myself for a couple weeks
		
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As long as you're enjoying yourself, that's the main thing.


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## Rlburnside (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			We’ve got NYE at ours tomorrow, 4 families which is 13 in total. The original plan was LFT’s for everyone in the morning however with no tests available we’ve had to go old school….”Do you feel well? Y/N”.
		
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LFT are sensible if your mixing with other people but not always the answer. 

Like you we had a family party Boxing Day the only person who took a LFT beforehand   had a positive LFT the next day and was confirmed positive when he had PCR test. 

Result is we are all isolating waiting results of our tests. 

Hope you have a good night with your family.


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## Leftitshort (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			As long as you're enjoying yourself, that's the main thing
		
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How can he spread if if he’s just had it? This bit I don’t get. Have it an have immunity, get vaccinated and have immunity (albeit time limited) 
If we are still locking down, officially or through societal pressure, what’s the point in vaccination. 
This is the same argument that wants me to vaccinate my kids


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## D-S (Dec 31, 2021)

So, if you are triple jabbed and have just had it but are now testing negative you are still a 'threat'??
If true, isn't this a recipe for permanent restrictions?


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

D-S said:



			So, if you are triple jabbed and have just had it but are now testing negative you are still a 'threat'??
If true, isn't this a recipe for permanent restrictions?
		
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Agree, I think we need to go into a state of permanent lockdown to ensure the safety of everyone!


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			As long as you're enjoying yourself, that's the main thing. 

Click to expand...

If you can’t start enjoying yourself when you are triple jabbed plus natural immunity from a recent infection when can you? Are you seriously suggesting that we all stay in bar our allotted period of daily exercise for the foreseeable future?!


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Are you seriously suggesting that we all stay in bar our allotted period of daily exercise for the foreseeable future?!
		
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Did I suggest that?
Do you not think there may be a middle ground between partying on and staying in?


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

DanFST said:



			Just saying I doubt it. Can obviously never be sure.

Absolutely no signs other than a slightly higher temperature and a bit achy for one day. feel 100% now. Will grab my booster when possible after isolation and then not stress about it for a little bit and party on.
		
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Just remember the time periods involved...If you test positive, you need to wait 28 days (from day of your positive test) before having booster. And the booster takes 1 to 2 weeks before becoming 'fully effective'.


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Did I suggest that?
Do you not think there may be a middle ground between partying on and staying in?
		
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If places of ‘partying on’ are open, available and you fancy frequenting then then I say go for it. If you’d rather keep things tamer then all good and if you want to stay in that’s your choice, as all of the above are. 

Being triple jabbed and very recently infected your levels of immunity are through the roof and any chances of ending up in hospital are extremely remote unless attempting The Robot whilst partying on results in a dance related injury. 

It seems to me that having had all available jabs he’s done the responsible bit and if he wants to take advantage of the freedoms that the vaccines should afford then go for it. Should be down to the individual IMO.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If places of ‘partying on’ are open, available and you fancy frequenting then then I say go for it. If you’d rather keep things tamer then all good and if you want to stay in that’s your choice, as all of the above are.

*Being triple jabbed AND very recently infected *your levels of immunity are through the roof and any chances of ending up in hospital are extremely remote unless attempting The Robot whilst partying on results in a dance related injury.

It seems to me that having had all available jabs he’s done the responsible bit and if he wants to take advantage of the freedoms that the vaccines should afford then go for it. Should be down to the individual IMO.
		
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I think there is a clue in your own comment about whether there is a risk or not. The chance of ending up in hospital may be remote, but the chance of transmitting it to someone else is not. 

Unfortunately many individuals have responded to the hesitance of Govt to take the right steps at the right time, to use science as cover rather than guidance, to wilfully ignore mask rules and generally take the piss.


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## drdel (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If places of ‘partying on’ are open, available and you fancy frequenting then then I say go for it. If you’d rather keep things tamer then all good and if you want to stay in that’s your choice, as all of the above are.

Being triple jabbed and very recently infected your levels of immunity are through the roof and any chances of ending up in hospital are extremely remote unless attempting The Robot whilst partying on results in a dance related injury.

It seems to me that having had all available jabs he’s done the responsible bit and if he wants to take advantage of the freedoms that the vaccines should afford then go for it. Should be down to the individual IMO.
		
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You can still be a carrier. Good luck for your mates...


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## IanM (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			the hesitance of Govt to take the right steps at the right time, to use science as cover rather than guidance, to wilfully ignore mask rules and generally take the piss.
		
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You are Bruce Forsythe and I claim my £5!


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2021)

drdel said:



			You can still be a carrier. Good luck for your mates...
		
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But it’s been strongly suggested that those who have been jabbed would carry a lower viral load.


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			If you can’t start enjoying yourself *when you are triple jabbed* plus natural immunity from a recent infection when can you? Are you seriously suggesting that we all stay in bar our allotted period of daily exercise for the foreseeable future?!
		
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He's already stated, by implication, that he's not triple jabbed!
Bad timing, but 'thems the breaks'. Irresponsible to endanger others at 'party on' venues until fully 'not contagious'!


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## Leftitshort (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Did I suggest that?
Do you not think there may be a middle ground between partying on and staying in?
		
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Having a party on your drive? Maybe the porch?


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			He's already stated, by implication, that he's not triple jabbed!
Bad timing, but 'thems the breaks'. Irresponsible to endanger others at 'party on' venues until fully 'not contagious'!
		
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The poster I was talking about was DanFST who said he’d had the booster etc so he’s triple jabbed.


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			Being triple jabbed and very recently infected your levels of immunity are through the roof and any chances of ending up in hospital are extremely remote
		
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He's not triple jabbed.
And while I agree his chances of ending up in hospital are extremely remote, that may not apply to the many unvaccinated people he may unwittingly infect.
I suppose my approach is more cautious than some as I believe the more infections there are, the more chances of new variants appearing which may be more resistant to the vaccines.


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I think there is a clue in your own comment about whether there is a risk or not. The chance of ending up in hospital may be remote, but the chance of transmitting it to someone else is not.
		
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But having been jabbed you don’t transmit nearly as much so I really don’t see the issue.


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			He's not triple jabbed.
		
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I think we are talking about different posters then, I was originally talking about DanFST who is having just had the booster.


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I think we are talking about different posters then, I was originally talking about DanFST who is having just had the booster.
		
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Please see post no. 24,017 where he said ''_*Will grab my booster when possible* after isolation and then not stress about it for a little bit and party on.''_


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			The poster I was talking about was DanFST who said he’d had the booster etc so he’s triple jabbed.
		
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Not quite! A slight misinterpretation of 'being boosted' (as in the state of being boosted, whenever it happens) to 'having been boosted'.

Here's the statement that he hasn't had the booster yet.


DanFST said:



			...
Will grab my booster when possible after isolation and then not stress about it for a little bit and party on.
		
Click to expand...


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## drdel (Dec 31, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			But it’s been strongly suggested that those who have been jabbed would carry a lower viral load.
		
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Yup that's true. Lower is not zero and 13 in a group indoors in a normal sized house for a few hours isn't wise in my opinion.


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Not quite! A slight misinterpretation of 'being boosted' (as in the state of being boosted, whenever it happens) to 'having been boosted'.

Here's the statement that he hasn't had the booster yet.
		
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Ah, apologies, I only saw #24,021 and read it that he’d been boostered!!


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			that may not apply to the many unvaccinated people he may unwittingly infect.
		
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Sorry but consideration towards unvacinated people is bottom of my list.  If they don't want the vacine that's up to them but don't ask me to be extra careful "for them"


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2021)

drdel said:



			Yup that's true. Lower is not zero and 13 in a group indoors in a normal sized house for a few hours isn't wise in my opinion.
		
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You’re right, lower isn’t zero. But is this about absolutes? There’s Covid in the village… should I go shopping? Tonight I’ll be in a restaurant, having showed proof of vaccination to get in. Someone, even though vaccinated, might be a carrier. My risk assessment is catching it is highly unlikely, and if I do catch it I’m triple jabbed and shouldn’t become seriously ill.

Short version, I’ll risk assess my activities and, were reasonable, get on with living.


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			He's not triple jabbed.
And while I agree his chances of ending up in hospital are extremely remote, that may not apply *to the many unvaccinated people he may unwittingly infect.*

Click to expand...

So we’re now adding the unvaccinated to the list of people we’re now protecting? If you’ve made the decision not to get vaccinated any future implications of that are solely down to you and not to a vaccinated person who might have given it to you.


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## Leftitshort (Dec 31, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			You’re right, lower isn’t zero. But is this about absolutes? There’s Covid in the village… should I go shopping? Tonight I’ll be in a restaurant, having showed proof of vaccination to get in. Someone, even though vaccinated, might be a carrier. My risk assessment is catching it is highly unlikely, and if I do catch it I’m triple jabbed and shouldn’t become seriously ill.

Short version, I’ll risk assess my activities and, were reasonable, get on with living.
		
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There is no perspective on risk anymore.


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## bobmac (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So we’re now adding the unvaccinated to the list of people we’re now protecting? If you’ve made the decision not to get vaccinated any future implications of that are solely down to you and not to a vaccinated person who might have given it to you.
		
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Not all people can get vaccinated.
You may have missed the rest of my post....
'' the more infections there are, the more chances of new variants appearing which may be more resistant to the vaccines.''


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## D-S (Dec 31, 2021)

But if he is double jabbed, has just had it and is testing negative, then how can he be a risk/threat?

Also to the point that 'not all people can be vaccinated', surely if you are unfortunate enough not to be able to be vaccinated for medical reasons, the last place you should be is out partying - so if they (those not able to be vaccinated solely for medical reasons) aren't there, how can he infect them?


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

bobmac said:



			Not all people can get vaccinated.
You may have missed the rest of my post....
'' the more infections there are, the more chances of new variants appearing which may be more resistant to the vaccines.''
		
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Genuine question but why can't all people get vaccinations?  Medical reasons I guess?  Even so,  If you can't have the vacine that's unlucky for you and you should stay away from the crowd.   As for mutations, covid is here for a loooooong time. At some point you have to let go.  When is up to you and your personal assessment.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			So we’re now adding the unvaccinated to the list of people we’re now protecting? If you’ve made the decision not to get vaccinated any future implications of that are solely down to you and not to a vaccinated person who might have given it to you.
		
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Well, the unvaccinated still block hospital beds that many of you complain should be used to care for non-Covid patients, but more likely they transmit the infection to others more readily than vaccinated people do, so as responsible as you think you may be, you may still be part of a chain of transmission that causes a major outbreak. They may be the accelerant, but you could still be the spark.

The reason they are unvaccinated is a secondary issue, almost certainly no medical reason for it, but that doesn't make a difference when it comes to spreading it. The virus transmitted by an irresponsible sociopath is the same as the virus spread by someone with allergies to all the vaccines.


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, the unvaccinated still block hospital beds that many of you complain should be used to care for non-Covid patients, but more likely they transmit the infection to others more readily than vaccinated people do, so as responsible as you think you may be, you may still be part of a chain of transmission that causes a major outbreak. They may be the accelerant, but you could still be the spark.
		
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But those who are unvaccinated now have made that decision and are unlikely to come down in huge numbers so that will always be the case.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			But those who are unvaccinated now have made that decision and are unlikely to come down in huge numbers so that will always be the case.
		
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But the more people who cram into the pub with them tonight, the more likely it is to kick off a superspreader event across unvaccinated, vaccinated with waning immunity, vaccinated with other immune conditions, people who think they have been responsible, people who don't give a toss etc. The virus doesn't care, it'll happily jump around between people. It is a numbers and proximity issue. Lots of people close together means more cases. Simple as that.


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Children?
		
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I don't see many children in a night club.


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

Kaz said:



			Just answering your question. Not sure where the night clubs reference comes from. Nor why it would affect the answer...
		
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We was discussing the apparent irresponsible person going out and partying because he's been double jabbed and just recovered from Covid.  That's where the reference come from


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2021)

Our lad has gone down with it couple of +ve LFTs pending doing a PCR test.  He has sounded really rubbish over last couple of days, and given the nature of his work, though disappointed he’s not really that surprised (and has not had his booster though it’s booked).

Hopefully he’ll be OK and fit and clear again soon, as no work, no income…but we are thinking maybe not a bad thing for him as he’s been working his socks off last three months - all hours of night and day, and all over the country - so he needs a rest.  In any case there’s an evens chance he’ll have an enforced longer break in January with risk of further restrictions shutting down all his work.  Hopefully that won’t happen, so the break over new year and first week of 2022 will do him the world of good.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Maybe they were praised in the media you read.
		
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indeed they were. So what should have been the appropriate strategy over the past month?


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 31, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our lad has gone down with it couple of +ve LFTs pending doing a PCR test.  He has sounded really rubbish over last couple of days, and given the nature of his work, though disappointed he’s not really that surprised (and has not had his booster though it’s booked).
		
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Make sure he changes his booking if it's due soon. He shouldn't have the booster for 4 weeks after his positive test.


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## RichA (Dec 31, 2021)

Having elderly and vulnerable family and friends, I've trusted the science and exercised caution from day 1 and I'll continue to abide by the law and follow the guidelines. 
I feel like the government and the majority of the people realise that it can't be binary anymore - ALL OPEN / ALL CLOSED. 
Our European neighbours with the most similar societal make up to ours often had longer, stricter lockdowns. None are fairing much better now. Some are in a worse position. 
Maybe it's about balance and flexibility as we head into the 3rd year of COVID.


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 31, 2021)

SocketRocket said:



			A bit more caution.  Face masks, distancing, vaccination passes, when we completely unlocked this year it was reckless imo.
		
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Facemasks - meh, whatever floats your boat. 
Vax passes - pretty pointless, lateral flow result passes more important but those easily forged or obtained so needs an overhaul.
Distancing - absolute number one but never appears at the top of anyones list when asked this question.


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			They may have been described as lockdowns, but there was plenty of activity during them. I worked as before through all of them, though the workplace setup changed.

So it wasn't a lockdown as far as I was concerned, just a bunch of (mainly sensible) restrictions.

I believe that's what Ethan meant by the text you highlighted.
		
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A good job a few people worked. Do you think there is or was an alternative?!


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			A good job a few people worked. Do you think there is or was an alternative?!
		
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There's ALWAYS an alternative!


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Did you sleep through the first lockdown that started on the 23rd March 2020 and then ended in May ?

What about the one in November. 2020

Or the third one at the start of 2021 ?

Did you ignore those ?
		
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I was here for all of those. Those weren't lock downs. Those were short term modest restrictions.


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## Fade and Die (Dec 31, 2021)

Ffs war footing …🤬

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/omic ... 74257.html


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			There's ALWAYS an alternative!
		
Click to expand...

So economic growth grinds to a complete halt for 3 months? Who stocks the supermarkets, delivers food to consumers, stops the looting, runs the hospitals. What you are implying on top of a very restrictive lockdown is preposterous


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I was here for all of those. Those weren't lock downs. Those were short term modest restrictions.
		
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That cost £400bn and counting! Your great grand kids will still be paying it off in 40 years


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Life had and has to go on fella as much as you’d like it not to……
		
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I am happy to see life go on. I would prefer if it had gone on longer for more of the people who were deprived of life,

As for the economy, check this out. 23 countries ranked.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I was here for all of those. Those weren't lock downs. Those were short term modest restrictions.
		
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They were lockdowns - I couldn’t go to the office , golf club , pubs , restaurants, schools were shut , nursery was shut - i could only go outside in my back garden , to get some food or for exercise 

If that’s not lockdown what’s missing 🙄


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## IanM (Dec 31, 2021)

We should get Joe Biden in.  They must have NO Covid at all in the USA now as the nightly reports of mass deaths and destruction on the BBC have stopped completely.     Fancy! 




PNWokingham said:



			So economic growth grinds to a complete halt for 3 months? Who stocks the supermarkets, delivers food to consumers, stops the looting, runs the hospitals. What you are implying on top of a very restrictive lockdown is preposterous
		
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I think you mean "activity" rather than growth!


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## IanM (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			That cost £400bn and counting! Your great grand kids will still be paying it off in 40 years
		
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Not in Wales.... they'll send the bill to London!


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## SammmeBee (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I am happy to see life go on. I would prefer if it had gone on longer for more of the people who were deprived of life, and if there had been a proper lockdown instead of delayed and weak half-arsed actions, it might have also gone on a darn sight better for everybody else too, like it did in some other countries. 

As for the economy, check this out. 23 countries ranked. 

View attachment 40235

Click to expand...

So lockdowns are a bad thing for the economy to then…..?!  Just let life go on…..


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			So economic growth grinds to a complete halt for 3 months? Who stocks the supermarkets, delivers food to consumers, stops the looting, runs the hospitals. What you are implying on top of a very restrictive lockdown is preposterous
		
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I didn't suggest,nor imply, any of the above! I merely stated that "There's always an alternative"!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			I didn't suggest,nor imply, any of the above! I merely stated that "There's always an alternative"!
		
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What alternative?


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			So lockdowns are a bad thing for the economy to then…..?!  Just let life go on…..
		
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Proper measures applied swiftly and effectively minimise the effects of the pandemic. That was the lesson learnt 100 years ago and it still applies now, and countries which did so had fewer deaths and their economies survived better.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Proper measures applied swiftly and effectively minimise the effects of the pandemic. That was the lesson learnt 100 years ago and it still applies now, and countries which did so had fewer deaths and their economies survived better.
		
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What are these “proper measures” that didn’t happen during the lockdown that you don’t see as a lockdown


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## IanM (Dec 31, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			So lockdowns are a bad thing for the economy to then…..?!  Just let life go on…..
		
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And therein lies the issue. 

Total Lockdown stops spread, but folk have to eat and earn money. 

No restrictions equals "business as usual" but doesn't stop spread.

Of course, if its not you at the lectern you can shout "should have done x, y and z" earlier/later/less/more etc etc etc and be all clever after the event.... but that's not a luxury available to the poor sods driving the bus.

Chucking rocks from the side is easy.

Call me old fashioned, but I thought the thread is about impact on individuals and politics was banned.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Google it. I am sure you will find out.
		
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That’s your answer ?! Google it ?

🙄

My daughter couldn’t go to nursery
We couldn’t go to my parents 
we couldn’t go to eat out or pubs
Couldn’t go to golf clubs
Wife couldn’t play hockey 
Could only go outside for exercise or to the shop for food
We both couldn’t go into work 

So what is missing thah makes it a “proper” lockdown


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s your answer ?! Google it ?

🙄
		
Click to expand...

I couldn't be bothered writing something just so you and others pick out pieces and have a go. There is no great secret what proper lockdown means. Has been discussed here some before. Only 24k posts to sift through.


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## chellie (Dec 31, 2021)

Bickering and arguing again on this thread. Why am I not surprised.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I couldn't be bothered writing something just so you and others pick out pieces and have a go. There is no great secret what proper lockdown means. Has been discussed here some before. Only 24k posts to sift through.
		
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Sorry but I have mainly ignored a lot of pretentious stuff on here just baffled how someone can suggest we weren’t in lockdown 

Maybe it’s worth speaking to all those that have suffered both mentally , physically and financially through the last 18 months and let them know it wasn’t a real lockdown just a few measures. 

Just once have a think about how it’s affected many others in the uk


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2021)

Spain’s first lockdown was 89 days. All non-essential businesses closed. Only 1 person allowed out for shopping, and must be in your home town or village unless there wasn’t a shop selling essentials. Masks mandatory. Second lockdown; similar restrictions, approx 4 weeks. Allowed out to exercise, max 1km from home. Third lockdown; not Allowed out of the town village. Bars/restaurants open but very restricted access/limited capacity. Curfew from 6pm, later moved to 10:30. Fourth lockdown; 3 weeks; municipal lockdowns. 10:30 curfews. Excellent uptake on vaccines. Covid passports now in widespread use. EDIT: the Police were very much in evidence, as was enforcement and compliance.

Deaths approx 2/3’s of U.K. figure. Population a similar ratio. GDP and share price drops are worse than the U.K.

I would hope that any restrictions will have made a significant difference but comparing the numbers with countries that have been far more lax, I’m not convinced. Going forward, for me, vaccines and masks but just get on with living.


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

Arh crap, just lost my taste and smell.   Had my heart set on a dominos and bottle of red tonight too.  Might as well eat a bowl of porridge now 😩


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## Billysboots (Dec 31, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			Subjective.
Not being allowed to do certain activities is certainly in my eyes a form of lockdown.
Not being able to go to your place of work, or work at all (though I’m sure many enjoy that) is a form of lockdown.
Kids not going to school - lockdown
Could only travel so far - lockdown
Couldn’t sit on a bench - lockdown
Couldn’t meet friends - lockdown

You might call it something else with your perception but it was certainly a form of prison. Only a larger playground.
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree. If being told “You _must_ stay at home”, because they were the exact words used during that broadcast to the U.K., was not putting us in a lockdown, then I don’t know what that period could be called.

I can’t remember all the finer points and, frankly, neither do I want to, but as I recall we could only leave home to shop for essentials, for medical supplies, to work if we couldn’t work from home, and to exercise once a day.

I don’t doubt it could be argued that we could have been told not to go out to exercise, that the military could have delivered food parcels to all, and so on. 

But as far as most are concerned, whatever restrictions were subsequently imposed at various times, the first period when we were confined to barracks in March 2020 was a lockdown. To argue otherwise is really splitting hairs.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 31, 2021)

Im going to say this just once more

POLITICS IS A BANNED SUBJECT ON THIS FORUM

Just dont go there, 8 Point Infractions for ignoring Moderator Advice will be issued as everyone knows this already

Thread reopened, play nice please


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			Don't be so judgemental casting blame. Pathetic. If you are referring to the first lockdown even the government medical advise at the time said ok to go the Cheltenham and sporting events etc. I am not commenting on this stage - hindsight is easy to say we were too late so we can park that. I also would not defend the disater of test and trace - would have far prefered using some of that money supporting the vulnerable and not spending billions on consultants

I have been asking if you would enlighten us with your wisdom and tell us exactly what you meant earlier about what we should have been doing in this latest omicrom phase over the past month (rather than trying to blatantly bash the government or bring up your favourite B word) or so that you said we have messed up by being too open? And why we still need a big brother to tell us what, when and how when we are where we are with the vaccines, natural immunity, new medicines like the antivirals, lessons learnt over the past 2 years, the milder symptoms from omicrom, the fact that we cannot properly contain further infections and that *herd immunity *is the only real way forward. And nice to see how well Sweden performed in your previous chart!
		
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Can you explain to me what _you_ think herd immunity is?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

I have heard about folk struggling to get LFT test kits. Local chemist had none so suggested the Stags, Mansfield Town fc ground. I got there showed my code which was not took down and they gave me two boxes. 😳


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can you explain to me what _you_ think herd immunity is?
		
Click to expand...

try googling it!


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## chellie (Dec 31, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			I have heard about folk struggling to get LFT test kits. Local chemist had none so suggested the Stags, Mansfield Town fc ground. I got there showed my code which was not took down and they gave me two boxes. 😳
		
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Would suggest ordering online https://www.gov.uk/order-coronavirus-rapid-lateral-flow-tests

They come in and out of stock.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			try googling it!
		
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Oh, I know what it is. I don't think you do.

And the question was not what is herd immunity, which is ggogleable. It was what does Paul Nash think herd immunity is, which probably isn't.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can you explain to me what _you_ think herd immunity is?
		
Click to expand...




PNWokingham said:



			try googling it!
		
Click to expand...


Guys, this is getting silly,


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

chellie said:



			Would suggest ordering online https://www.gov.uk/order-coronavirus-rapid-lateral-flow-tests

They come in and out of stock.
		
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Thats the ones I did.it sends a code. Tells you where the nearest place is and when you get there, they have none.😁
Joking aside we have been to the local chemist 3 times and they have never let us down. It was the local chemist that sent us to the stags. 👍


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## funkycoldmedina (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Oh, I know what it is. I don't think you do.
		
Click to expand...

The Telegraph tells him what it is 😜


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys, this is getting silly,
		
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can you remember the topic PS started 👍


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## upsidedown (Dec 31, 2021)

HiD just had message unit and trust are looking at 50 % staff shortages next week 😩


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 31, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys, this is getting silly,
		
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Just lock the whole forum,pour yourself a beer & give yourself a night off 🍻


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			try googling it!
		
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Sorry 'what does pnwokingham think herd immunity is' doesn't get any specific results


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:



			Just lock the whole forum,pour yourself a beer & give yourself a night off 🍻
		
Click to expand...

He might want to have hold of something stiffer 😉


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 31, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:



			Just lock the whole forum,pour yourself a beer & give yourself a night off 🍻
		
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Im sorely tempted to do just that, like herding cats sometimes


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Guys, this is getting silly,
		
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Well, PNW proposed herd immunity was the answer to Covid, part of the learn to live with it delusion. 

I was interested to know what he thinks that actually means.

I am fairly sure it does not mean what he thinks it does.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			HiD just had message unit and trust are looking at 50 % staff shortages next week 😩
		
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Am sure all those that think that COVID is a load of “ two balls in a bag”, and we should be “ getting on with life”.  won’t mind covering a shift or two. 👍🤬


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, PNW proposed herd immunity was the answer to Covid, part of the learn to live with it delusion.

I was interested to know what he thinks that actually means.

I am fairly sure it does not mean what he thinks it does.
		
Click to expand...

Thats fair enough, my response was aimed at PNW, had to include yours for context


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			HiD just had message unit and trust are looking at 50 % staff shortages next week 😩
		
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Approximately 1 million now in isolation......that's a big chunk of the workforce.


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## Hobbit (Dec 31, 2021)

An ex-colleague has Covid for the third time. The joys of working in the NHS?


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 31, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			He might want to have hold of something stiffer 😉
		
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I’m not even touching this reply,had enough infractions this year 😂


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## Leftitshort (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, PNW proposed herd immunity was the answer to Covid, part of the learn to live with it delusion.

I was interested to know what he thinks that actually means.

I am fairly sure it does not mean what he thinks it does.
		
Click to expand...

Interested then in what your proposal would be? Not to rubbish it, far from it. can’t mention politics, but the current approach seems populist


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## Jamesbrown (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can you explain to me what _you_ think herd immunity is?
		
Click to expand...

What definition does he need to supply? The pre or post 2020 version?


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Well, PNW proposed herd immunity was the answer to Covid, part of the learn to live with it delusion.

I was interested to know what he thinks that actually means.

I am fairly sure it does not mean what he thinks it does.
		
Click to expand...

To quote the WHO:

To safely achieve herd immunity against COVID-19, a substantial proportion of a population would need to be vaccinated, lowering the overall amount of virus able to spread in the whole population. 

The proportion of the population that must be vaccinated against COVID-19 to begin inducing herd immunity is not known. This is an important area of research and will likely vary according to the community, the vaccine, the populations prioritized for vaccination, and other factors.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

Leftitshort said:



			Interested then in what your proposal would be? Not to rubbish it, far from it. can’t mention politics, but the current approach seems populist
		
Click to expand...

It is a bit late now, but this evenings NYE celebrations in poorly ventilated pubs and clubs is only going to send the numbers one way. As SAGE and others advised, we needed a circuit breaker before Christmas, failing that between Christmas and New Year, so missed the boat on those, so a circuit breaker asafp is now needed. Scrap the stupid idea for Nightingale hospitals, they can't be staffed, we will be lucky if existing NHS services can be staffed.

Impress on people that although it is true that Omicron is, on average, milder than Delta, we don't know if that is also true of longer term effects yet, and it doesn't mean that it is not serious. Omicron has very high transmissibility so a lot more people are affected. That dilutes the case fatality rate and hospitalisation rate, but because there are so many more poplin the denominator, it still results in a lot of cases in hospital.

On the herd immunity question, since Paul appears to be busy googling, it is a mathematical concept based on the R-value which estimates the proportion of the population that needs to be immune in order that a pandemic cannot propagate (i.e. grow). 

Initial estimates for Alpha and Beta were an R around 3, so in that case then everybody who gets the infection gives it to 3 others and it propagates. But if 2 out of 3 people were immune, then 1 case would typically only give it to 1 other, and the case numbers wouldn't grow. So the HI threshold is calculated as 1-1/R, so if R is 3, HI is 66%.

The complications arise when R is either much higher, vaccine effectiveness is less than 100% or immunity levels are varying (vaccine effectiveness waning). The immunity threshold needs to take these into account.

It is estimated that R for Omicron is approximately 10 (Alpha and beta were about 3, Delta about 5). Lets say vaccine effectiveness is about 80% for boosted people. So 1-1/10 is 90%, but that has to be divided to take into account the relative vaccine effectiveness, so the herd immunity threshold is now (1-1/10)/0.8, i.e 1.125 or 112.5%, so HI cannot be achieved with Omicron even if every man, woman and child was triple vacced.

Waning immunity also affects the estimates, in a bad way.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			To quote the WHO:

To safely achieve herd immunity against COVID-19, a substantial proportion of a population would need to be vaccinated, lowering the overall amount of virus able to spread in the whole population.

The proportion of the population that must be vaccinated against COVID-19 to begin inducing herd immunity is not known. This is an important area of research and will likely vary according to the community, the vaccine, the populations prioritized for vaccination, and other factors.
		
Click to expand...

Like I said .....


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

Pin-seeker said:



			I’m not even touching this reply,had enough infractions this year 😂
		
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Bad man 😉


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

Jamesbrown said:



			What definition does he need to supply? The pre or post 2020 version?
		
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I wanted him to tell me what _he _thought it meant.


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

Hobbit said:



			An ex-colleague has Covid for the third time. The joys of working in the NHS?
		
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So much for immunity!
Hope it's not severe!


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## PNWokingham (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			I wanted him to tell me what _he _thought it meant.
		
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i told you what i meant with the words of WHO, which is exactly as i see it. If in your superior understanding the concept is now deemdd impossible so be it - we can substiture "living with it is an endemic disease in an open un-locked-down society as we do with seasonal flu"


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

People have had 3 jabs in the last year and we're still being told (by some) that we need a lockdown/circuit breaker or restrictions.   So is this life?  A lockdown each time a varient comes along?  Or do we trust the vacines and crack on?   It's hard to get good figures as to how many vacinated people are dieing from Covid.   Can anyone post a link maybe?


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## IanM (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i told you what i meant with the words of WHO
		
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Yeah, but Dr Who is rubbish these days!


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## SteveW86 (Dec 31, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			He might want to have hold of something stiffer 😉
		
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I’m sure he would, but at his age that may not be as easy as it used to be.


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Approximately 1 million now in isolation......that's a big chunk of the workforce.
		
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Though not all of those will be part of (recognised) 'workforce'.


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

IanM said:



			Yeah, but Dr Who is rubbish these days!
		
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Why does the word 'Exterminate' spring to mind - for so many reasons?


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Though not all of those will be part of (recognised) 'workforce'.
		
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Agreed but if you add in those who are off sick for non-covid reasons I bet it more than makes up for the difference..


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## theoneandonly (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Can you explain to me what _you_ think herd immunity is?
		
Click to expand...

It's when all your cows are immune to a specific disease.


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i told you what i meant with the words of WHO, which is exactly as i see it. If in your superior understanding the concept is now deemdd impossible so be it - we can substiture "living with it is an endemic disease in an open un-locked-down society as we do with seasonal flu"
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't a definition, by the way, more the WHO's way of saying "It's complicated" to the average citizen. Torygraph readers should be able to do better, surely.

Does WHO also regard it as akin to seasonal flu? I am sure you realise that the prevalence can rise again from the low "endemic" levels if you/we/they piss around too much with it, to put it technically? There is a weird sort of eugenics in that idea of "living with it", which means you will tolerate other people dying from it.



hovis said:



			People have had 3 jabs in arms in the last year and we're still being told (by some) that we need a lockdown/circuit breaker or restrictions.   So is this life?  A lockdown each time a varient comes along?  Or do we trust the vacines and crack on?   It's hard to get good figures as to how many vacinated people are dieing from Covid.   Can anyone post a link maybe?
		
Click to expand...

Right from the start, immunologists said that it would take time to build up a flexible and adaptive immunity. That means that in the short term, we need boosters and to have an appropriate level of public health measures. But in time, most people will develop immunity that does away with the need for either to a large extent for most people, older people and others with weaker immunity, mainly.

Occasionally a bad variant will come along, like MERS or SARS v1.0, but mostly it will be OK.

One argument often made is that viruses tend to get weaker with evolution. This is not necessarily true. Viruses that transmit _before_ they cause symptoms don't need to do this, there is no selective evolutionary pressure on them to do so, smallpox was an example of this, which stayed nasty with evolution.


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

PNWokingham said:



			i told you what i meant with the words of WHO, which is exactly as i see it. If in your superior understanding the concept is now deemdd impossible so be it - we can substiture "living with it is an endemic disease in an open un-locked-down society as we do with seasonal flu"
		
Click to expand...

Surely/even ao, it's important the anti-social idiots (generalisation I know, but they can't ALL 'be allergic' to jabs), especially the ones in high density areas like London actually get vaccinated & boosted!


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## Slime (Dec 31, 2021)

Dogs and bones spring to mind, not sure why?


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Does WHO also regard it as akin to seasonal flu? I am sure you realise that the prevalence can rise again from the low "endemic" levels if you/we/they piss around too much with it, to put it technically? There is a weird sort of eugenics in that idea of "living with it", which means you will tolerate other people dying from it.



Right from the start, immunologists said that it would take time to build up a flexible and adaptive immunity. That means that in the short term, we need boosters and to have an appropriate level of public health measures. But in time, most people will develop immunity that does away with the need for either to a large extent for most people, older people and others with weaker immunity, mainly.

Occasionally a bad variant will come along, like MERS or SARS v1.0, but mostly it will be OK.

One argument often made is that viruses tend to get weaker with evolution. This is not necessarily true. Viruses that transmit _before_ they cause symptoms don't need to do this, there is no selective evolutionary pressure on them to do so, smallpox was an example of this, which stayed nasty with evolution.
		
Click to expand...

So at some point the risk has to be accepted. Mass testing stops and no isolation?  I wonder what the criteria is for that.  Number of daily deaths?  Number of hospitalised people?


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Agreed but if you add in those who are off sick for non-covid reasons I bet it more than makes up for the difference..
		
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That number is (almost) irrelevant as that's likely to always be the case - seasonal flu etc excepted


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## SteveW86 (Dec 31, 2021)

Can’t wait for everyone to have had a few more of their drink of choice for the evening. This thread will really liven up then.


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

theoneandonly said:



			It's when all your cows are immune to a specific disease.
		
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Ah, like prostrate cancer?  I'll get my coat!


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

hovis said:



			So at some point the risk has to be accepted. Mass testing stops and no isolation?  I wonder what the criteria is for that.  Number of daily deaths?  Number of hospitalised people?
		
Click to expand...

This happened with Spanish flu. Killed lots of people, and later waves were bad, but survivors developed an immunity and within a relatively short time, it really only affected the sick and elderly, and nowadays most people don't get flu symptoms, but may have antibodies for exposure. 

Personally, I think the LFTs are a waste of time. We should maintain a degree of social distancing, masks etc, PCR anybody with symptoms but most of the rest is either unnecessary or false reassurance. Likewise isolate for PCR-positive or while awaiting results. 

The case numbers are now even more unreliable because of limited testing capacity, so the test-positive rate is a better measure of the trend of cases. Hospitalisation Dan deaths are clearly critical but tell you about cases last week or the week before, so are too outdated to really keep policy ahead of the game.


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			Personally, I think the LFTs are a waste of time. We should maintain a degree of social distancing, masks etc, PCR anybody with symptoms but most of the rest is either unnecessary or false reassurance. Likewise isolate for PCR-positive or while awaiting results.
		
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I’m not sure if this is what you meant however I agree with you about LFT’s. Stop testing healthy/symptomless people. If you feel unwell and it’s a Covid-esque symptom then isolate and get a PCR.


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			This happened with Spanish flu. Killed lots of people, and later waves were bad, but survivors developed an immunity and within a relatively short time, it really only affected the sick and elderly, and nowadays most people don't get flu symptoms, but may have antibodies for exposure.

Personally, I think the LFTs are a waste of time. We should maintain a degree of social distancing, masks etc, PCR anybody with symptoms but most of the rest is either unnecessary or false reassurance. Likewise isolate for PCR-positive or while awaiting results.

The case numbers are now even more unreliable because of limited testing capacity, so the test-positive rate is a better measure of the trend of cases. Hospitalisation Dan deaths are clearly critical but tell you about cases last week or the week before, so are too outdated to really keep policy ahead of the game.
		
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Thanks for that
I can't say latteral flows are a waste of time though.  I done one just as I was setting off for work (as per policy) and I noticed the faintest line.  This stopped me going to work sitting shoulder to shoulder with 7 blokes and probably knocking a fire engine off the run.    Pcr was possitve next day and the lateral flow now is a propa dark line 😬


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m not sure if this is what you meant however I agree with you about LFT’s. Stop testing healthy/symptomless people. If you feel unwell and it’s a Covid-esque symptom then isolate and get a PCR.
		
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Yep, I agree. A lot of the testing is to generate big numbers and look like action to reassure.


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m not sure if this is what you meant however I agree with you about LFT’s. Stop testing healthy/symptomless people. If you feel unwell and it’s a Covid-esque symptom then isolate and get a PCR.
		
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I was a 100% fine and got a possitve.  The latteral flow saved my employer and family from a right ball ache


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

hovis said:



			Thanks for that
I can't say latteral flows are a waste of time though.  I done one just as I was setting off for work (as per policy) and I noticed the faintest line.  This stopped me going to work sitting shoulder to shoulder with 7 blokes and probably knocking a fire engine off the run.    Pcr was possitve next day and the lateral flow now is a propa dark line 😬
		
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It may be a zero sum game, though. I know doctors who have had patients who did an LFT instead of getting a PCR - Negative, go to work, whatever, get symptoms, PCR positive, but had a period of false reassurance during which they transmitted it to half the office.


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 31, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Can’t wait for everyone to have had a few more of their drink of choice for the evening. This thread will really liven up then.
		
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Oh no it won’t…………


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			...
Personally, I think the LFTs are a waste of time. We should maintain a degree of social distancing, masks etc, PCR anybody with symptoms but most of the rest is either unnecessary or false reassurance. Likewise isolate for PCR-positive or while awaiting results.
..
		
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Good, quick and relatively cheap way to encourage potential 'victims' to start the 'test' process. Availability is far better than PCR test!
Trying to think of equivalence....Triage philosophy?  Provisional ball?

Used in hospitals - for those arriving with other issues? I doubt it.


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

Ethan said:



			It may be a zero sum game, though. I know doctors who have had patients who did an LFT instead of getting a PCR - Negative, go to work, whatever, get symptoms, PCR positive, but had a period of false reassurance during which they transmitted it to half the office.
		
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Yeh I didn't think off that in all fairness.  Even today I did a nasal one and I'm negative.  I've done 3 a day of the throat ones (for work experiment) and all possitve.  Then you've got the people that don't do them correctly either


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## road2ruin (Dec 31, 2021)

hovis said:



			Yeh I didn't think off that in all fairness.  Even today I did a nasal one and I'm negative.  I've done 3 a day of the throat ones (for work experiment) and all possitve.  Then you've got the people that don't do them correctly either
		
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I’ve seen threads on Twitter suggesting that the new LFT’s that are nose only don’t actually pick up the new variant or at least not nearly as accurately and when retested with the throat swab positives were being picked up far more regularly. This would make sense to me as I have friends who had numerous negative LFT’s before getting a positive PCR.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 31, 2021)

Popped into ICU today. Surprised after being out since the 19th that we only have 4 patients (2 unvaxed and 2 fully vaxed so take from that what you will)


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

road2ruin said:



			I’m not sure if this is what you meant however I agree with you about LFT’s. Stop testing healthy/symptomless people. If you feel unwell and it’s a Covid-esque symptom then isolate and get a PCR.
		
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As per my reply to Ethan.
I believe they do have value. 
Early identification - as per Hovis.
Cheap way to encourage testing of 'potential' cases.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

SteveW86 said:



			Can’t wait for everyone to have had a few more of their drink of choice for the evening. This thread will really liven up then.
		
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I think some have started early 😉👍


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## Tashyboy (Dec 31, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Oh no it won’t…………
		
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fragger the pantomine villain, 😳 “oh yes it will“ 😁😘


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## hovis (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			As per my reply to Ethan.
I believe they do have value.
Early identification - as per Hovis.
Cheap way to encourage testing of 'potential' cases.
		
Click to expand...

I agree but I suppose for one person that it works for you get one idot that gets a false negative and goes round tesco sneezing on tesco shopping trolly handles


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## Ethan (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Good, quick and relatively cheap way to encourage potential 'victims' to start the 'test' process. Availability is far better than PCR test!
Trying to think of equivalence....Triage philosophy?  Provisional ball?

Used in hospitals - for those arriving with other issues? I doubt it.
		
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LFTs are good at identifying people who are true negative, but not as good at identifying people who are true positive. They are also often used badly, so someone who is true positive has a decent chance of testing negative and going about their business confident they are "clean". if you wanted complete capture of all true cases, the detection level would be set lower, so more people test LFT-positive, including some who then have a PCR negative and can be told to relax, but you don't miss any cases.


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

hovis said:



			I agree but I suppose for one person that it works for *you get one idot that gets a false negative and goes round tesco sneezing on tesco shopping trolly handles*

Click to expand...

But that was/is likely to happen anyway, as they almost certainly wouldn't consider finding/having a PCR test in the first place.


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## chellie (Dec 31, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Thats the ones I did.it sends a code. Tells you where the nearest place is and when you get there, they have none.😁
Joking aside we have been to the local chemist 3 times and they have never let us down. It was the local chemist that sent us to the stags. 👍
		
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You don't need a code if you get them delivered! That is an option which is why I posted the link.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 31, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Oh no it won’t…………
		
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Oh yes it will. 

(Well it is panto season after all).


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

Damn stupid arse about face system! It owes me 5+ minutes of wasted life filling out 'forms'!
Filled out half a dozen screens, last being address, only for screen saying  'We don't have any for your area' or similar to pop up!


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## SocketRocket (Dec 31, 2021)

Good news that another anti viral drug with a high rate of preventing hospitalisation in vulnerable people has been approved today.


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## IanM (Dec 31, 2021)

The BBC will have a bloke on warning of the associated risks!

(Unless it was developed in the EU)

Ps.  Kidding!!


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## drdel (Dec 31, 2021)

Well I know the the word "Happy" is entirely subject bit I'd wager that based on today's posts tomorrow will be a "HAPPY NEW YEAR "

Please, good health to everyone!!


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

drdel said:



			Well I know *the the* word "Happy" is entirely _subject_ *bit* I'd wager that based on today's posts tomorrow will be a "HAPPY NEW YEAR "

Please, good health to everyone!!
		
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Looks someones either seriously into Hogmaney style activity!
But I certainly agree with the cement .


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 31, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Looks someones either seriously into Hogmaney style activity!
But I certainly agree with the *cement* .
		
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We need a concrete answer please 😂


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## Foxholer (Dec 31, 2021)

PhilTheFragger said:



			We need a concrete answer please 😂
		
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Whoosh!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2021)

ColchesterFC said:



			Make sure he changes his booking if it's due soon. He shouldn't have the booster for 4 weeks after his positive test.
		
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I didn’t know that…will check that he’s aware.  He’s going to try for a PCR test tomorrow.


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## ColchesterFC (Dec 31, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I didn’t know that…will check that he’s aware.  He’s going to try for a PCR test tomorrow.
		
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I didn't either until I caught it in November. Fortunately for me it didn't affect my booster date as the 4 weeks finished the day before my 6 months was up. They changed the rules for being able to receive a booster after three months instead of six, but that was after I'd already got it.

This is from the British Heart Foundation (I haven't been able to find a link with .gov.uk).......

"*Can I have a booster if I have Covid symptoms?*
If you are experiencing Covid-19 symptoms, you should not attend your booster appointment. You should take a test and self-isolate until you get your results.

If you test positive, you need to wait four weeks (28 days) from the day of your positive test to have a booster.

If you receive a negative test, and are feeling well enough, you may attend your appointment.

If you still feel unwell and your symptoms are contagious, for example if you have a cough or cold, it might be considerate to postpone your appointment to avoid passing it on to other people."

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informations...navirus-and-your-health/covid-booster-vaccine


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Looks someones either seriously into Hogmaney style activity!
But I certainly agree with the cement .
		
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Pedantically pedant, finish the year as you start it 🙄


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## Foxholer (Jan 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Pedantically pedant, finish the year as you start it 🙄
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 1, 2022)

Find myself wondering how many folks out there are like my BiL, hiding their fears of significant illness behind a telephone diagnosis of suspected long covid, and with that not being open with their GP about all their symptoms - because Long Covid seems preferable to what else it might be 🙁


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## Rlburnside (Jan 1, 2022)

Getting a negative test result this morning good start to the new year no more isolating,only had to isolate for 2 days so not to bad.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Find myself wondering how many folks out there are like my BiL, hiding their fears of significant illness behind a telephone diagnosis of suspected long covid, and with that not being open with their GP about all their symptoms - because Long Covid seems preferable to what else it might be 🙁
		
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I feel your pain, if it is “something else“. the chances are that one day he won’t have an option but to deal with it, and by then it may be to late.

On another note it seems this second or third bout of COVID Missis T has had, has started to restore her sense of smell. Not always a pleasant smell either 😁.


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## DanFST (Jan 1, 2022)

I didn't want to read this yesterday, as I was miserable and it would have made things worse. I didn't realise i'd cause such a commotion. I don't need to explain myself on here at all.

I will be actually having an attempt a a decent year, I haven't travelled, gone to gigs or football. As long as i'm able, I will be. If being triple jabbed with a recent infection isn't enough, well tough. I won't be in a physically better state. 

As for "no actual lockdown" Can someone explain why I spent over 4 months completely alone, apart from getting food? Which resulted in me selfishly using NHS resources after stupidly failing an attempt at my taking my life. Why my beautiful ex girlfriend who would have been there to stop it, left to go back to Italy to look after her mother who was alone. Was Italy's lockdown a proper one? As people may know, I work in credit. The amount of emails we have received from people going through the worst of times because of this is incredible. We obviously grant payment holidays for a long as needed, without proof.


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## RichA (Jan 1, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I didn't want to read this yesterday, as I was miserable and it would have made things worse. I didn't realise i'd cause such a commotion. I don't need to explain myself on here at all.

I will be actually having an attempt a a decent year, I haven't travelled, gone to gigs or football. As long as i'm able, I will be. If being triple jabbed with a recent infection isn't enough, well tough. I won't be in a physically better state.

As for "no actual lockdown" Can someone explain why I spent over 4 months completely alone, apart from getting food? Which resulted in me selfishly using NHS resources after stupidly failing an attempt at my taking my life. Why my beautiful ex girlfriend who would have been there to stop it, left to go back to Italy to look after her mother who was alone. Was Italy's lockdown a proper one? As people may know, I work in credit. The amount of emails we have received from people going through the worst of times because of this is incredible. We obviously grant payment holidays for a long as needed, without proof.
		
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As long as it's legal and safe, do what works for you brother. The background noise is mostly just empty vessels clanging around.
Stay healthy - mind and body - both equally important.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 1, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			I feel your pain, if it is “something else“. the chances are that one day he won’t have an option but to deal with it, and by then it may be to late.

On another note it seems this second or third bout of COVID Missis T has had, has started to restore her sense of smell. Not always a pleasant smell either 😁.
		
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Unfortunately he‘s now been diagnosed with a serious cancer.  As the symptoms of long covid matched most of what he was experiencing, he settled with that - whilst choosing to blank out the couple of symptoms that couldn’t be explained by LC.  And these other symptoms were key to the diagnosis when he eventually opened up fully to his GP.

I fear that he will not be alone in clutching at Long Covid as an answer to their symptoms when there could be something (much) more serious going on.  And of course the well-publicised pressure on GPs and difficulty getting f2f appointment is just the sort of ‘excuse’ many (men especially) will use for not going to see their GP.


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## IanM (Jan 1, 2022)

Keep scrapping Dan.   No one on here really knows what folk are going through. 

Better days ahead.....


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## Slime (Jan 1, 2022)

IanM said:



			Keep scrapping Dan.   No one on here really knows what folk are going through.

Better days ahead.....
		
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Absolutely what IanM said.


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## bobmac (Jan 1, 2022)

RichA said:



			As long as it's legal and safe, do what works for you brother. The background noise is mostly just empty vessels clanging around.
Stay healthy - mind and body - both equally important.
		
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I agree, spring is just around the corner, lots to look forward to.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 1, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I didn't want to read this yesterday, as I was miserable and it would have made things worse. I didn't realise i'd cause such a commotion. I don't need to explain myself on here at all.

I will be actually having an attempt a a decent year, I haven't travelled, gone to gigs or football. As long as i'm able, I will be. If being triple jabbed with a recent infection isn't enough, well tough. I won't be in a physically better state.

As for "no actual lockdown" Can someone explain why I spent over 4 months completely alone, apart from getting food? Which resulted in me selfishly using NHS resources after stupidly failing an attempt at my taking my life. Why my beautiful ex girlfriend who would have been there to stop it, left to go back to Italy to look after her mother who was alone. Was Italy's lockdown a proper one? As people may know, I work in credit. The amount of emails we have received from people going through the worst of times because of this is incredible. We obviously grant payment holidays for a long as needed, without proof.
		
Click to expand...

Keep your chin up Dan. A lot of people have been badly affected over the past couple of years. I think we are nearly out of this and hopefully better days are ahead 🥂


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 1, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I didn't want to read this yesterday, as I was miserable and it would have made things worse. I didn't realise i'd cause such a commotion. I don't need to explain myself on here at all.

I will be actually having an attempt a a decent year, I haven't travelled, gone to gigs or football. As long as i'm able, I will be. If being triple jabbed with a recent infection isn't enough, well tough. I won't be in a physically better state.

As for "no actual lockdown" Can someone explain why I spent over 4 months completely alone, apart from getting food? Which resulted in me selfishly using NHS resources after stupidly failing an attempt at my taking my life. Why my beautiful ex girlfriend who would have been there to stop it, left to go back to Italy to look after her mother who was alone. Was Italy's lockdown a proper one? As people may know, I work in credit. The amount of emails we have received from people going through the worst of times because of this is incredible. We obviously grant payment holidays for a long as needed, without proof.
		
Click to expand...

Reading that is exactly why it annoys when people just dismiss the lockdowns and the affect it has on some 

Hope all ok 👍 remember this place will always be a good sounding board


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 1, 2022)

Hearing a gentleman we had on ICU for 45 days and who spent another 39 recovering elsewhere in the hospital is finally well enough to go home


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## SocketRocket (Jan 1, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I didn't want to read this yesterday, as I was miserable and it would have made things worse. I didn't realise i'd cause such a commotion. I don't need to explain myself on here at all.

I will be actually having an attempt a a decent year, I haven't travelled, gone to gigs or football. As long as i'm able, I will be. If being triple jabbed with a recent infection isn't enough, well tough. I won't be in a physically better state.

As for "no actual lockdown" Can someone explain why I spent over 4 months completely alone, apart from getting food? Which resulted in me selfishly using NHS resources after stupidly failing an attempt at my taking my life. Why my beautiful ex girlfriend who would have been there to stop it, left to go back to Italy to look after her mother who was alone. Was Italy's lockdown a proper one? As people may know, I work in credit. The amount of emails we have received from people going through the worst of times because of this is incredible. We obviously grant payment holidays for a long as needed, without proof.
		
Click to expand...

I hope you are getting some help for your mental health Dan.  Please don't keep things to yourself and hopefully you will be able to see your way through these trying times.

There are people who can listen and give support, although discussions on this site can lead to disagreements most are willing to lend an ear and offer support.  I certainly am if you need it then don't hold back on making contact, I believe that goes for most of us.

Take care.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2022)

Another boring day at the vaccine centre. Been reported by NHS that 40% of booked places UK wide, people not turning up. Appreciate that there is an increase in cases and 28 day rule but its getting silly now.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 3, 2022)

Typed this a few times, deleted it and then typed again. A good friend and old hockey mucker succumbed to this awful virus on New Year's Day. We're all in shock and I can't really describe how I feel as I'm not sure I know.

For whatever reason it took hold and she just couldn't fight it...it sucks


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Typed this a few times, deleted it and then typed again. A good friend and old hockey mucker succumbed to this awful virus on New Year's Day. We're all in shock and I can't really describe how I feel as I'm not sure I know.

For whatever reason it took hold and she just couldn't fight it...it sucks 

Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that Amanda 😞


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## larmen (Jan 3, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Another boring day at the vaccine centre. Been reported by NHS that 40% of booked places UK wide, people not turning up. Appreciate that there is an increase in cases and 28 day rule but its getting silly now.
		
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Wasn’t there a case of anti vaxers booking appointments on mass to make people not get one?


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## Tashyboy (Jan 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Typed this a few times, deleted it and then typed again. A good friend and old hockey mucker succumbed to this awful virus on New Year's Day. We're all in shock and I can't really describe how I feel as I'm not sure I know.

For whatever reason it took hold and she just couldn't fight it...it sucks 

Click to expand...

A Bessie pals dad died of it last year. Mansfield was kinda rejoicing that there was only one death that day, His. It was a step in the right direction we were told. It never felt like it. I went for a meal with me pal a month ago. He was telling me how the hospital rang him in the middle of the night to say his dad had passed away. He told the hospital to ring his mother at 9.00 am in the morning and he would be there. He turned up at 8.30 and his mum was buzzing she was really optimistic. Me pal was torn up inside. He knew there was no optimism. I could go on. 
Sometimes when I read some posts on here re COVID I have to avoid the thread for a few days. They have never walked in those shoes and I hope they never have to. 
Thoughts with you at this time Amanda me duck.


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Typed this a few times, deleted it and then typed again. A good friend and old hockey mucker succumbed to this awful virus on New Year's Day. We're all in shock and I can't really describe how I feel as I'm not sure I know.

For whatever reason it took hold and she just couldn't fight it...it sucks 

Click to expand...

Sad news Amanda. Best wishes to you and yours.


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## IainP (Jan 3, 2022)

Was visiting Wokingham today, on the way out, Reading road I think, a load of anti-vaxers with placards making a racket 🤷‍♂️  Bizarre.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 3, 2022)

IainP said:



			Was visiting Wokingham today, on the way out, Reading road I think, a load of anti-vaxers with placards making a racket 🤷‍♂️  Bizarre.
		
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We've had similar around Bracknell so they may be the same group. I understand from a friend of a friend they are also from a local church group so wonder if they fall into the "god will protect me camp"


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## SaintHacker (Jan 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We've had similar around Bracknell so they may be the same group. I understand from a friend of a friend they are also from a local church group so wonder if they fall into the "god will protect me camp"
		
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Utter morons. Maybe the ambulances should be told to just drop these people off at their churches...


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## Ethan (Jan 3, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Utter morons. Maybe the ambulances should be told to just drop these people off at their churches...
		
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Ha. That is exactly the thing to do with them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We've had similar around Bracknell so they may be the same group. I understand from a friend of a friend they are also from a local church group so wonder if they fall into the "god will protect me camp"
		
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I thank my God that I don’t expect ‘him‘ to work in the way these folks seem to expect.  If I was unvaccinated *my* God would tell me to just go get vaccinated - that’s how *my* God can protect me…by getting me to protect myself.  Because it is quite simply the *right* thing to do, for myself and for others close, and who might find themselves close, to me.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thank my God that I don’t expect ‘him‘ to work in the way these folks seem to expect.  If I was unvaccinated *my* God would tell me to just go get vaccinated - that’s how *my* God can protect me…by getting me to protect myself.  Because it is quite simply the *right* thing to do, for myself and for others close, and who might find themselves close, to me.
		
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Yeah we get that,and it’s not aimed at you or your church,  but there are other religious groups heading up the anti vax side, there was a group with “God will protect us” placards in the centre of High Wycombe the week before Christmas.

These people exist and it is worrying


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## IanM (Jan 3, 2022)

There's some very odd comments on LinkedIn from folk with surprisingly sensible jobs.  

Are they sat at home with bacofoil hats?


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## drdel (Jan 3, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Yeah we get that,and it’s not aimed at you or your church,  but there are other religious groups heading up the anti vax side, there was a group with “God will protect us” placards in the centre of High Wycombe the week before Christmas.

These people exist and it is worrying
		
Click to expand...

These are religious and zealots.  'God' provided humans with the capability to think and reason. This enabled the scientists to develop vaccines for our benefit. So take what has been provided.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 3, 2022)

IainP said:



			Was visiting Wokingham today, on the way out, Reading road I think, a load of anti-vaxers with placards making a racket 🤷‍♂️  Bizarre.
		
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There was a group came in The Red Lion in town centre. One old guy had  double sided board he was wearing. I moved closer and listened a bit after my meal. They were complete loony tunes- I heard them talking the world is flat and other absolute nonsense! Total and utter fruitcake!


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## SaintHacker (Jan 3, 2022)

I love flat earthers, they're great value for a wind up


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			There was a group came in The Red Lion in town centre. One old guy had  double sided board he was wearing. I moved closer and listened a bit after my meal. They were complete loony tunes- I heard them talking the world is flat and other absolute nonsense! Total and utter fruitcake!
		
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The worlds not flat - when did that change


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 3, 2022)

Flat Earth Society has members all around the world


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2022)

drdel said:



			These are religious and zealots.  'God' provided humans with the capability to think and reason. This enabled the scientists to develop vaccines for our benefit. So take what has been provided.
		
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Absolutely…👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 3, 2022)

I’m thinking that I’ll be cancelling the Burns Supper and Ceilidh I’ve organised for the 22nd.  I just can’t see the Government telling me on Wednesday or anytime soon after either that I definitely can or I absolutely can’t go ahead with it, I’ll have to use my common sense.  My CS says to me quite clearly that it’s too risky, and I don’t want to have seriously ill or even ill folk on my hands as a result of going ahead.  But if that’s the case then I shouldn’t be even considering going ahead with it.  Yes I guess I could ask everyone to take a LFT beforehand but who knows whether LFTs will be freely available.  Cancellation will lose my fundraising over £1000 and the club bar and catering will lose income (I’m hosting it at my golf club). I’m hoping that everyone will understand.

Thing is, I know that there will be some on here that would tell me that in cancelling I am doing the right thing considering the risk to myself and everyone attending; yet there will be others who would tell me that I am over-reacting, that we need to get on with and enjoying our lives; that the economy needs it to go ahead; that the risk is over-stated.


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			yet there will be others who would tell me that I am over-reacting, that we need to get on with and enjoying our lives; that the economy needs it to go ahead; that *the risk is over-stated*.
		
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Just remind them there were over 157,000 new cases of the fatal virus *yesterday* that has killed over 5 million people so far. You can have the Burns Supper and Ceilidh next year.
In my humble opinion, you are doing the right thing


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## Papas1982 (Jan 4, 2022)

drdel said:



			These are religious and zealots.  'God' provided humans with the capability to think and reason. This enabled the scientists to develop vaccines for our benefit. So take what has been provided.
		
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So nice of god to help these scientists to try and provide a cure for a disease, if only something all powerful could have stopped it ever occurring…..


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

Papas1982 said:



			So nice of god to help these scientists to try and provide a cure for a disease, if only something all powerful could have stopped it ever occurring…..
		
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Which god, there are hundreds of them


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 4, 2022)

Well that’s a bummer
Just tested positive, got a pcr test booked at 8 am
Had cold symptoms for a couple of days, slight sore throat, bit of a croak in the voice, but taste & smell unaffected, feel fine within myself.

Unable to ascertain where I picked it up from 🤧


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## HeftyHacker (Jan 4, 2022)

I also had the faintest line on a LFT.

Been rife amongst my friends and despite regular testing before meeting up he got a positive a day after we played golf and enjoyed a post round pint.

I knew something was up when I fell asleep on the couch at 5pm for an hour and was still able to sleep at 10pm that night. If that happened normally I'd be unable to sleep until 2am ish.

Thankfully seemed to have avoided any other symptoms for now. PCR test on its way.


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## Foxholer (Jan 4, 2022)

Papas1982 said:



			So nice of god to help these scientists to try and provide a cure for a disease, if only something all powerful could have stopped it ever occurring…..
		
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Ah well.The sending of whichever scourge happens to be the current one must have been actively initiated by <insert deity according to faith> to punish non-believers and restore adherents' faith in the all power of <insert selected deity>! And, of course, it was <insert selected deity> that provided scientists with the path to discover the cure for the scourge too!
Logic and (religious) faith are mutually exclusive!
But that faith can also get 'corrupted' by a very human trait - tribalism! Just consider that's it's the same deity at the head of the 3 dominant faiths in the Middle East, yet they've been fighting wars 'in the name of their deity' for centuries! And that even appllies to slight variations within individual faiths - plenty examples of that in Middle East and Europe over the centuries.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 4, 2022)

Ok can we get away from religion please
It’s a well trodden route to grief on these pages


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well that’s a bummer
Just tested positive, got a pcr test booked at 8 am
Had cold symptoms for a couple of days, slight sore throat, bit of a croak in the voice, but taste & smell unaffected, feel fine within myself.

*Unable to ascertain where I picked it up from* 🤧
		
Click to expand...

🤔Imurg 😉


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Ok can we gat away from religion please
It’s a well trodden route to grief on these pages
		
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Not for me it isn’t 😉

You will appreciate that I was making the point that many, if not most, of us having a religious persuasion view as sorely and dangerously misguided those ’God will protect me’ anti-vaxers with as much despair as the contempt expressed towards them by those of none.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Just remind them there were over 157,000 new cases of the fatal virus *yesterday* that has killed over 5 million people so far. You can have the Burns Supper and Ceilidh next year.
In my humble opinion, you are doing the right thing
		
Click to expand...

Slept on it and will email the fundraising committee with my concerns and thoughts.


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## bobmac (Jan 4, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not for me it isn’t 😉

You will appreciate that I was making the point that many, if not most, of us having a religious persuasion view ’God will protect me’ anti-vaxers with as much despair *as the contempt of those of no religious grounding.*

Click to expand...

That's a bit of a leap.
I feel sorry for the many religious anti-vaxers and their children who will suffer because of their faith, not contempt.


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			🤔Imurg 😉
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't me...I wasn't even there 
You can't prove nuffin'


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well that’s a bummer
Just tested positive, got a pcr test booked at 8 am
Had cold symptoms for a couple of days, slight sore throat, bit of a croak in the voice, but taste & smell unaffected, feel fine within myself.

Unable to ascertain where I picked it up from 🤧
		
Click to expand...

My taste and smell didn't go until day 5.  It come back on day 7


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2022)

bobmac said:



			That's a bit of a leap.
I feel sorry for the many religious anti-vaxers and their children who will suffer because of their faith, not contempt.
		
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Likewise…I feel they are misguided…but there is no hiding that some view them with contempt and disdain for their faith in that their God can protect them and they do not need vaccination.  And I get that.  Plus I have no time at all for those of any persuasion or none who are disrupting vaccination centres.


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2022)

Felt crap overnight so did a LF test this morning which was positive,  just been for my Pcr test. Was due to start my new part time job this afternoon as well☹


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## Jimaroid (Jan 4, 2022)

My shoulder is still frozen / strained from when I had my booster 4 weeks ago. Annoying. 

Anyway, I thought this was a very interesting thread showing some good news and reasons why the pressures on hospitals are different this time around. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478339769646166019


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			My shoulder is still frozen / strained from when I had my booster 4 weeks ago. Annoying.

Anyway, I thought this was a very interesting thread showing some good news and reasons why the pressures on hospitals are different this time around.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478339769646166019

Click to expand...

Very good thread imo, hopefully people will take the time to read it. 👍🏻


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## larmen (Jan 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			My taste and smell didn't go until day 5.  It come back on day 7
		
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That’s a short window to finally eat the stuff from the back of the fridge ;-)


the danish expert (Whitty equivalent) is talking about the ‘whole thing’ being back to normal within 2 months. She is referring to our numbers as well as their own to form her conclusion.

I guess we are at a state to ‘live with it’ is what she is meaning.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 4, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Very good thread imo, hopefully people will take the time to read it. 👍🏻
		
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Read a lot of it, but not all. Very similar to some of what Dr John Campbell was talking about in his daily update yesterday. I don't usually watch him, but did last night by pure chance, it was an interesting watch.


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2022)

Very sore throat, thick head and freezing cold - tracksuit and duvet not working, heating’s on too.

 LFT being delivered by the Policia Local later this afternoon. Hoping, after double jab and booster, that this is just a cold.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			My shoulder is still frozen / strained from when I had my booster 4 weeks ago. Annoying.

Anyway, I thought this was a very interesting thread showing some good news and reasons why the pressures on hospitals are different this time around.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478339769646166019

Click to expand...

As he points out, one of the factors in the cases > hospitalisations > deaths relationship is the age-mix of the affected population. We already know that younger people are much less likely to need hospitalisation or to die from Covid than older people. So far, Omicron has affected a younger than previously affected demographic because the unvaccinated are mostly younger. If Omicron begins to affect more vaccinated, and likely older, people, the conversion rates from case to hospitalisations will change.


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2022)

Honest conversation between people I know on Messanger about a New Years eve party I decided not to go to:

Person 1:             Just heard that xxxxx at the party has just tested positive.
Rest of Group:      That is OK, we do not really know them and did not spend any time near them on NYE.
Me:                      You do realise that she may have caught it on NYE rather than having brought it with her and someone else at the party could of spread it

Loud Sound of Penny Dropping

Rest of Group:        Ah, we better get tested then

Sometimes I just want to weep


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## AmandaJR (Jan 4, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Very sore throat, thick head and freezing cold - tracksuit and duvet not working, heating’s on too.

LFT being delivered by the Policia Local later this afternoon. Hoping, after double jab and booster, that this is just a cold.
		
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Sister and b-in-law both tested positive (also triple jabbed). Good news is a few days of feeling rough and they're feeling pretty much back to normal.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2022)

daily LFT announced for some critical workers .. apparently im on the list.. will have to check.. do they even have enough tests??


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## patricks148 (Jan 4, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well that’s a bummer
Just tested positive, got a pcr test booked at 8 am
Had cold symptoms for a couple of days, slight sore throat, bit of a croak in the voice, but taste & smell unaffected, feel fine within myself.

Unable to ascertain where I picked it up from 🤧
		
Click to expand...

Same here.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2022)

People are going to catch it - it’s seems to be migrating into the winter flu but seems a lot more contiguous 

When do we as a country or maybe human race start to move towards it being treated in the same way ? Feel Ill - don’t go to work or socialise , anything else just carry on , get a yearly booster if you feel vunerable towards the virus 

We need to learn to live with it - the flu takes peoples lives as well 

When is it time for us to let it be a part of our lives and not define our lives


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## williamalex1 (Jan 4, 2022)

My oldest grandson tested positive, but he feels fine.


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## Ethan (Jan 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People are going to catch it - it’s seems to be migrating into the winter flu but seems a lot more contiguous

When do we as a country or maybe human race start to move towards it being treated in the same way ? Feel Ill - don’t go to work or socialise , anything else just carry on , get a yearly booster if you feel vunerable towards the virus

We need to learn to live with it - the flu takes peoples lives as well

When is it time for us to let it be a part of our lives and not define our lives
		
Click to expand...

It really is not the winter flu. One day, it may be, but it isn't yet. Even with milder outcomes, Covid is still much more dangerous than flu. The flu does not put otherwise decently healthy middle aged or young people in hospital. And we haven't seen the effects of Omicron as it moves into the vaccinated population, i.e. older people, nor the longer term inflammatory effects in people who think they had a mild course. Allowing it to run also increases the chance another variant emerges and there is no guarantee the next one will be mild or less transmissible.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It really is not the winter flu. One day, it may be, but it isn't yet. Even with milder outcomes, Covid is still much more dangerous than flu. The flu does not put otherwise decently healthy middle aged or young people in hospital. And we haven't seen the effects of Omicron as it moves into the vaccinated population, i.e. older people, nor the longer term inflammatory effects in people who think they had a mild course. Allowing it to run also increases the chance another variant emerges and there is no guarantee the next one will be mild or less transmissible.
		
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Agreed. I can't say 100% for sure but I don't expect flu would have killed my 53 year old friend...


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## adam6177 (Jan 4, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			daily LFT announced for some critical workers .. apparently im on the list.. will have to check.. do they even have enough tests??
		
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I'm surprised the single use plastic brigade aren't all over this....... I guess they could be but it's not being publicised.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Honest conversation between people I know on Messanger about a New Years eve party I decided not to go to:

Person 1:             Just heard that xxxxx at the party has just tested positive.
Rest of Group:      That is OK, we do not really know them and did not spend any time near them on NYE.
Me:                      You do realise that she may have caught it on NYE rather than having brought it with her and someone else at the party could of spread it

Loud Sound of Penny Dropping

Rest of Group:        Ah, we better get tested then

Sometimes I just want to weep
		
Click to expand...

Despite this I bet some of the group still think you overreacted


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It really is not the winter flu. One day, it may be, but it isn't yet. Even with milder outcomes, Covid is still much more dangerous than flu. The flu does not put otherwise decently healthy middle aged or young people in hospital. And we haven't seen the effects of Omicron as it moves into the vaccinated population, i.e. older people, nor the longer term inflammatory effects in people who think they had a mild course. Allowing it to run also increases the chance another variant emerges and there is no guarantee the next one will be mild or less transmissible.
		
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Totally agree. Interesting that of the 6 we currently have only one in totally unvaccinated and 2 are fully vaxed without any existing co-morbidities. I don't know if these are Omicrom or not but it still amazes me how random these virus is and can affect people so severely and yet others are left feeling unwell for a few days and then get back to normal. Definitely not comparable to winter flu at this stage


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## Tashyboy (Jan 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			It wasn't me...I wasn't even *there*
You can't prove nuffin'
		
Click to expand...

Where’s There. 😳🤔 yup There’s a guilty comment right there. 😉😁


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## theoneandonly (Jan 4, 2022)

Well my son had it, now my daughter has it, but me mrs still testing negative.


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## Foxholer (Jan 4, 2022)

A couple more idiots!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59867046


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## Beezerk (Jan 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			A couple more idiots!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59867046

Click to expand...

A couple more dead idiots more like.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			A couple more dead idiots more like.
		
Click to expand...

These guys obviously have had some issues for a while. They should serve as a cautionary tale. 

It is ironic that they wanted to look extraterrestrial, but are now subterranean.


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## Robster59 (Jan 5, 2022)

My Stepson works in caring for displaced teenagers, whilst his partner works in a children's special needs facility.  Both quite high risk. 
His partner said that she had the parents sending in kids which showed all the signs of Covid but were not being tested.  When they asked one of the parents to do a test on a 6-year-old, she did so and he tested positive BUT she then brought him back in the following day and said that although he tested positive, as she did not report it back to the authorities, he did not officially have Covid so she could still drop him off.  According to my stepsons partner, she is technically right, but if so it is crazy and also shows the irresponsibility of the mindset of the parent.  Send in your kid with Covid, he infects other kids, go home, infect their family (who may be otherwise doing everything right) and so it grows.  I said she should report the woman to the authorities, which she says they already have.

Another friend, who is a nurse up here in Scotland, says the majority of people she is treating or either young(ish) unvaccinated people, or pregnant women who have not taken the vaccine for fear of damaging their unborn child.  She says she can sort of understand the latter, but it still doesn't deny the fact they have lost quite a number of mothers with their unborn child due to Covid.

We would never have eradicated Polio and Smallpox if we had this mentality in the past.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Another friend, who is a nurse up here in Scotland, says the majority of people she is treating or either young(ish) unvaccinated people, or pregnant women who have not taken the vaccine for fear of damaging their unborn child.  She says she can sort of understand the latter, but it still doesn't deny the fact they have lost quite a number of mothers with their unborn child due to Covid.
		
Click to expand...

The problem they have with the pregnant ladies is that the message to mums to be was that it was probably best not to have the vaccine so they didn't. Suddenly the official message changed but on a local level there were (and still are in some areas) consultants/GP's/Midwives advising the ladies not to have it. Whilst it doesn't necessarily make sense to anyone looking in from the outside the mum's are solely focussed on the health of their baby and will do nothing to risk it and there seemed to be a feeling of distrust as to why the message could suddenly change from don't do it to 'go for it'. I appreciate there is overwhelming evidence pointing towards getting the vaccine but not all the decisions are being driven by common sense.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2022)

2x LFT’s, one last night and one a short while ago. Both negative. Not Covid but not nice. Mega sore throat and a proper hacking cough.

As for being able to get kits for testing, not a problem at all.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 5, 2022)

Test daily Brian ( isn’t she on strictly?)
I had symptoms for 3 days before the lft test turned pos


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Test daily Brian ( isn’t she on strictly?)
I had symptoms for 3 days before the lft test turned pos
		
Click to expand...

We bought 3 kits. Extortionate price of €5.95 each.


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## GB72 (Jan 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Honest conversation between people I know on Messanger about a New Years eve party I decided not to go to:

Person 1:             Just heard that xxxxx at the party has just tested positive.
Rest of Group:      That is OK, we do not really know them and did not spend any time near them on NYE.
Me:                      You do realise that she may have caught it on NYE rather than having brought it with her and someone else at the party could of spread it

Loud Sound of Penny Dropping

Rest of Group:        Ah, we better get tested then

Sometimes I just want to weep
		
Click to expand...

And that will be 2 of my friends who went testing positive on LFTs this morning.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 5, 2022)

Never thought I would see this in the
Guardian. The nanny state's mouthpiece publishing an article that basically says nannying isn't the answer.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... -scientist


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Never thought I would see this in the
Guardian. The nanny state's mouthpiece publishing an article that basically says nannying isn't the answer.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... -scientist

Click to expand...

saw that the other day and found myself agreeing with a piece in the Guardian! A rare event and echoes a lot of what i said last year in advocating the core strategy of protecting the vulnerable while keeping as much of the economy open as possible was a better solution than long blanket lock downs


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			saw that the other day and found myself agreeing with a piece in the Guardian! A rare event and echoes a lot of what i said last year in advocating the core strategy of protecting the vulnerable while keeping as much of the economy open as possible was a better solution than long blanket lock downs
		
Click to expand...

In 2020 we didn't have vaccines, mass testing wasn't available, we were still learning how best to treat people with Covid.  How exactly could we have protected the vulnerable, especially people in care homes?


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## IainP (Jan 5, 2022)

Interesting times on the mainland 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59873833


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## Whereditgo (Jan 5, 2022)

Just been told by my partner that in the NHS Trust she works in 25% of WTE (Whole Time Equivalent) staff are absent either having Covid or self -isolating owing to Covid.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			In 2020 we didn't have vaccines, mass testing wasn't available, we were still learning how best to treat people with Covid.  How exactly could we have protected the vulnerable, especially people in care homes?
		
Click to expand...

Nor did Sweden and they copoed better than us on deaths and in a different league in finances and social impact. The amount we spent is eye watering and us very conceivable that spending a fraction of that targeted on a fraction of the population could have produced a better outcome. Also the fact that when we locked down we may have been past the peak of infections. No way to be sure but we need to analyse what worked and what didn't and learn from mistakes in order to improve future actions and ensure whole societal issues are weighted appropriately


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## SaintHacker (Jan 5, 2022)

If its true that fully vaccinated people are far less likely to transmit the virus then maybe the answer now is to do away with the need to self isolate if fully vacc'd. This would massively ease the pr3ssure on workplaces who are struggling with huge absences, and may have the added benefit of persuading a few sceptics into getting jabbed


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## Whereditgo (Jan 5, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			If its true that fully vaccinated people are far less likely to transmit the virus then maybe the answer now is to *do away with the need to self isolate if fully vacc'd*. This would massively ease the pr3ssure on workplaces who are struggling with huge absences, and may have the added benefit of persuading a few sceptics into getting jabbed
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that already the case?

My understanding is: You need to do daily LFT's if you live in the same household with no requirement to self-isolate if fully vaccinated unless you start to show symptoms or get a positive LFT. No requirement even for LFT's if you are fully vaccinated and have contact with someone who then has a positive test?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			If its true that fully vaccinated people are far less likely to transmit the virus then maybe the answer now is to do away with the need to self isolate if fully vacc'd. This would massively ease the pr3ssure on workplaces who are struggling with huge absences, and may have the added benefit of persuading a few sceptics into getting jabbed
		
Click to expand...

I think this or some form of it will have to happen soon. The massive financial burden of the last two years is going to be felt very heavily across the country this year as inflation is shooting above 5%, interest rates likely to be 3x higher at around 1% (they were 0.1% last month), with the prospect of this overshooting if inflation stays stubbornly high, the new 125bp Health tax from April, the massively elevated costs of servicing the extra government debt - we need to do everything possible to Stoke economic growth to try and ameliorate all these issues


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## theoneandonly (Jan 5, 2022)

Whereditgo said:



			Isn't that already the case?

My understanding is: You need to do daily LFT's if you live in the same household with no requirement to self-isolate if fully vaccinated unless you start to show symptoms or get a positive LFT. No requirement even for LFT's if you are fully vaccinated and have contact with someone who then has a positive test?
		
Click to expand...

Correct , 2 of my kids have it but wife and I don't need to isolate. I have a few lfts and so far they have been negative. The kids are wandering the house too.


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## Captainron (Jan 5, 2022)

Understand that there is a new variant that has been discovered in the South East of France. 48 mutations from the original but only a dozen or so infected with this one so far. 

5th odd variant in two years and undoubtedly more to come.

Is it a case of high alert for each one of these just in case it's a bad one? I hope not. 

I am still of the opinion that we should just crack on with it and go back to normal life


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## Rooter (Jan 5, 2022)

Captainron said:



			I am still of the opinion that we should just crack on with it and go back to normal life
		
Click to expand...

I agree to some extent Cam, but Normal as we knew it, is no more. What might make you feel a bit ropey for 24 hours, could hospitalize me as someone with a weakened immune system. I am not alone in being slightly more cautious about the whole thing. 

But, I see all sides. I am very comfortable working at home, my kids are happy and I am getting paid, so restrictions don't affect me at all really. socially and economically, I actually don't mind them!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



*Nor did Sweden and they copoed better than us on deaths* and in a different league in finances and social impact. The amount we spent is eye watering and us very conceivable that spending a fraction of that targeted on a fraction of the population could have produced a better outcome. Also the fact that when we locked down we may have been past the peak of infections. No way to be sure but we need to analyse what worked and what didn't and learn from mistakes in order to improve future actions and ensure whole societal issues are weighted appropriately
		
Click to expand...

You might want to reconsider that statement. Even Anders Tegnell, the epidemiologist that drove their no lockdown policy, admits that their figures no longer stand out from other countries.

This image shows that while Sweden did better than the UK, they did much worse than the other Nordic countries for deaths (per capita). A country saying that they did better than the UK is a bit like me saying that I'm a better father than Josef Fritzel. Or a better golfer than Stephen Hawking.


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## Captainron (Jan 5, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I agree to some extent Cam, but Normal as we knew it, is no more. What might make you feel a bit ropey for 24 hours, could hospitalize me as someone with a weakened immune system. I am not alone in being slightly more cautious about the whole thing.

But, I see all sides. I am very comfortable working at home, my kids are happy and I am getting paid, so restrictions don't affect me at all really. socially and economically, I actually don't mind them!
		
Click to expand...

Normal as in no restrcitons on all travel, numbers in public spaces, back to work in offices, eating out, bars etc. I think masks are here for a bit along with PCR and Lat flows. 

We have to get off the COVID roundabout.


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## DanFST (Jan 5, 2022)

PCR's no longer needed to confirm +ve LFT. 

Means the case numbers are even more useless than before.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

DanFST said:



			PCR's no longer needed to confirm +ve LFT.

Means the case numbers are even more useless than before.
		
Click to expand...

The problem with testing is that some context is needed. We need to know whether tests were done for symptoms, as contacts or just for routine testing, like my son who I have just brought to school for testing before returning to school tomorrow. Positive tests will inevitably be found in all those settings, to different degrees. Because Omicron is so prevalent, the case positivity rate is probably a more useful measure than the headline positive test numbers, and the 40-odd% rate of test positivity strongly suggests that we are missing a lot of positive cases in the community. The test numbers are then rendered even less relevant when a change in the populations tested occurs, adding in some occupational group or changing the frequency of testing.


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## DanFST (Jan 5, 2022)

Why would someone input their positive result into the app? 



Ethan said:



			The problem with testing is that some context is needed. We need to know whether tests were done for symptoms, as contacts or just for routine testing, like my son who I have just brought to school for testing before returning to school tomorrow. Positive tests will inevitably be found in all those settings, to different degrees. Because Omicron is so prevalent, the case positivity rate is probably a more useful measure than the headline positive test numbers, and the 40-odd% rate of test positivity strongly suggests that we are missing a lot of positive cases in the community. The test numbers are then rendered even less relevant when a change in the populations tested occurs, adding in some occupational group or changing the frequency of testing.
		
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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Why would someone input their positive result into the app?
		
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Well, some of the tests are done by employers or schools, so the patient doesn't have a say. But you are right, there is little upside to reporting. 

Even so, test positive rates are very high.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			You might want to reconsider that statement. Even Anders Tegnell, the epidemiologist that drove their no lockdown policy, admits that their figures no longer stand out from other countries.

This image shows that while Sweden did better than the UK, they did much worse than the other Nordic countries for deaths (per capita)
View attachment 40372

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I was quoting Sweden compared to UK. Norway and Denmark were exceptional - both very wealthy countries but no denying they coped very well on deaths from covid - not too sure of their restrictive measures to other European countries such as Spain, Italy, France, UK, Portugal etc. Sweden coped better than UK, France, the EU and their GDP and extra borrowing was miles better than all of these. But the true effects of the deaths and social issues will not be fully understood for several years. But, I was also referring to what Professor Woolhouse was saying that it may have been a better result all round if we have focused massive efforts on protecting the vulnerable from the start rather than total lockdowns. Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe impossible to prove but certaimly worth thinking about. But the amount of death and other health issues caused from the last 2 years will be with us for a couple of generations and will manifest it very deeply in all areas of society - debt and rising interest being a major facor over the coming years


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## Bdill93 (Jan 5, 2022)

Avoiding all unnecessary contact until after my son is born!

Do not want to miss his birth!


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			If its true that fully vaccinated people are far less likely to transmit the virus then maybe the answer now is to do away with the need to self isolate if fully vacc'd. This would massively ease the pr3ssure on workplaces who are struggling with huge absences, and may have the added benefit of persuading a few sceptics into getting jabbed
		
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France just annound that asymptomatic healthcare workers and those in essential services can keep on working


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Normal as in no restrcitons on all travel, numbers in public spaces, back to work in offices, eating out, bars etc. I think masks are here for a bit along with PCR and Lat flows.

*We have to get off the COVID roundabout*.
		
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I don't believe Covid wants to play that game though.   

Covid is a World wide epidemic and is only going to get worse with catastrophic consequences unless it is suppressed.   Maybe you can describe what this new world with Covid will look like and how it will be better than if we manage its ability to spread unhindered.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I was quoting Sweden compared to UK. Norway and Denmark were exceptional - both very wealthy countries but no denying they coped very well on deaths from covid - not too sure of their restrictive measures to other European countries such as Spain, Italy, France, UK, Portugal etc. Sweden coped better than UK, France, the EU and their GDP and extra borrowing was miles better than all of these....
		
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Very selective comparison! UK and Sweden are by no means comparable countries (except where it might suit an argument). Comparing Sweden with/to other Nordic countries is much more suitable imo and Sweden certainly didn't fare as well as them.
This article explains/challenges. https://www.businessinsider.com/swe...egy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8?r=US&IR=T
And you seem to be obsessed with the ongoing cost of restrictions! Just remember that premature deaths have a 'cost' too, just not as visible!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			France just annound that asymptomatic healthcare workers and those in essential services can keep on working
		
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It has also announced the measures it will take with the unvaccinated.

France registered 271,000 new cases yesterday and these measures have been taken in desperation, not because they think it's the best way to operate.


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## Captainron (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe Covid wants to play that game though.  

Covid is a World wide epidemic and is only going to get worse with catastrophic consequences unless it is suppressed.   Maybe you can describe what this new world with Covid will look like and how it will be better than if we manage its ability to spread unhindered.
		
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The global nature of it means that it will never be suppressed. The handling of the pandemic is so disparate that you cannot stop it. Vaccinations and masks. That is all you can do. We have to learn to live with it.


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## Robster59 (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			saw that the other day and found myself agreeing with a piece in the Guardian! A rare event and echoes a lot of what i said last year in advocating the core strategy of protecting the vulnerable while keeping as much of the economy open as possible was a better solution than long blanket lock downs
		
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And anyone walking around over the last few months know just how well relying on people's common sense worked.


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## hovis (Jan 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, some of the tests are done by employers or schools, so the patient doesn't have a say. But you are right, there is little upside to reporting.

Even so, test positive rates are very high.
		
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I can only speak for the emergency services.  We have lft and register our results on a government site and internal.    Most people stopped the government one after 6 months because its a ball ache


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

Captainron said:



			The global nature of it means that it will never be suppressed. The handling of the pandemic is so disparate that you cannot stop it. Vaccinations and masks. That is all you can do. We have to learn to live with it.
		
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And when the Health Services become overwhelmed what happens then. Abandon the critically ill, let them get on with it?


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## Beezerk (Jan 5, 2022)

The wife has had a bad cold for a couple of days, tested negative yesterday but positive today. I'm now starting to come down with similar symptoms, headache, sore throat, cold etc.
I've booked a PCR test for tomorrow morning, work won't be happy


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 5, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			The wife has had a bad cold for a couple of days, tested negative yesterday but positive today. I'm now starting to come down with similar symptoms, headache, sore throat, cold etc.
I've booked a PCR test for tomorrow morning, work won't be happy 

Click to expand...

Time to binge watch a few shows 😄. Line em up.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Very selective comparison! UK and Sweden are by no means comparable countries (except where it might suit an argument). Comparing Sweden with/to other Nordic countries is much more suitable imo and Sweden certainly didn't fare as well as them.
This article explains/challenges. https://www.businessinsider.com/swe...egy-failed-higher-death-rate-2021-8?r=US&IR=T
And you seem to be obsessed with the ongoing cost of restrictions! Just remember that premature deaths have a 'cost' too, just not as visible!
		
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grow up. I included reference to Nordic neighbours that did way better on deaths than Sweden *and all other EU countries*. But Sweden did better than the EU average and several other large EU countries on deaths and all others economically - and may have done better on many other social and other medical issues. 

Of course i am obsessed by the cost of restrictions - we are all going to be for the rest of our lives. Also, losses of life to covid will likely pale into insignificance compared to the deaths from the other diseases that have gone undiagnosed over the past couple of years and the loss of severvices than could have been improved over the coming decade from some of the £400bn+ we have borrowed through this period. This and the resulting inflation surge are direct results of covid restrictions, economic contractions and spending


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It has also announced the measures it will take with the unvaccinated.

France registered 271,000 new cases yesterday and these measures have been taken in desperation, not because they think it's the best way to operate.
		
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Desperation is necessity and reality as the best overall way to cope - not really any choice


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			grow up. I included reference to Nordic neighbours that did way better on deaths than Sweden *and all other EU countries*. But Sweden did better than the EU average and several other large EU countries on deaths and all others economically - and may have done better on many other social and other medical issues.

Of course i am obsessed by the cost of restrictions - we are all going to be for the rest of our lives. Also, losses of life to covid will likely pale into insignificance compared to the deaths from the other diseases that have gone undiagnosed over the past couple of years and the loss of severvices than could have been improved over the coming decade from some of the £400bn+ we have borrowed through this period. This and the resulting inflation surge are direct results of covid restrictions, economic contractions and spending
		
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You know that it's unreasonable to compare a country with the population density of Sweden to the UK and especially England.  

Our problem in my opinion is that we've been too easy with our Covid restrictions, containing the virus spread and protecting the economy are intrinsically linked in my opinion.  What do you think would happen to the health service if we just got on with it.

I assume by your comments on inflation and interest rates you didn't live through the 1970s and 1980s where the current interest and inflation rates would have been unthinkably low.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Desperation is necessity and reality as the best overall way to cope - not really any choice
		
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You however come across as suggesting these measures should be the norm as we get on with it.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

Captainron said:



			The global nature of it means that it will never be suppressed. The handling of the pandemic is so disparate that you cannot stop it. Vaccinations and masks. That is all you can do. We have to learn to live with it.
		
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I would say we do have to learn to live with it, but not quite yet. The risk of a resurgence remains too high. At some point, which could be soon, but will be delayed the more we fart about with it, the level of immunity and the breadth off immunity (two different things) in the population will be enough that Covid settles into the background noise of common cold and flu. Improving the immunity means more boosters, scooping up stragglers and Djokovic supporters, and maintaining a bit of social distancing, i.e. care in crowded or badly ventilated places. 

In my opinion, if learning to live with it right now means abandoning isolation and care in crowded places, then we will get bitten in the arse and it will only set us back further than ever. And there is no guarantee the next variant will be mild. There is no evolutionary pressure on Covid to get milder - it transmits before affecting the host, so doesn't need to be mild, it achieves its Darwinian objective once it transmits.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			In my opinion, if learning to live with it right now means abandoning isolation and care in crowded places, then we will get bitten in the arse and it will only set us back further than ever. And there is no guarantee the *next variant* will be mild. There is no evolutionary pressure on Covid to get milder - it transmits before affecting the host, so doesn't need to be mild, it achieves its Darwinian objective once it transmits.
		
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Not suggesting that we throw off the shackles however isn't the argument for our country about the 'next variant' largely pointless only on the basis that whilst we have a huge number of countries who have next to no vaccination operations, and unlikely to do so in the near future, the next variant(s) are inevitable? Obviously not keen on having a killer variant, prefer the milder ones however it's almost completely out of our control.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You however come across as suggesting these measures should be the norm as we get on with it.
		
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You think we have any other choice?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			You think we have any other choice?
		
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Yes, I do and have already explained it.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I do and have already explained it.
		
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so wjat happens when/ if there are not enough front line medics to run the hospitals - and other emergency services? Do we let some who are isolating come back and ease the severe pressure or do we put that pain on those needing treatment? Given a choice i know which side i would choose


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## Robster59 (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			You think we have any other choice?
		
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Compulsory vaccination?  It worked with Smallpox and Polio.


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## Robster59 (Jan 5, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Never thought I would see this in the
Guardian. The nanny state's mouthpiece publishing an article that basically says nannying isn't the answer.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... -scientist

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PNWokingham said:



			saw that the other day and found myself agreeing with a piece in the Guardian! A rare event and echoes a lot of what i said last year in advocating the core strategy of protecting the vulnerable while keeping as much of the economy open as possible was a better solution than long blanket lock downs
		
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You mean you agree with The Guardian because in this instance you agree with the articles, but on all other bits of their reporting where they don't match your views, you don't?


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Not suggesting that we throw off the shackles however isn't the argument for our country about the 'next variant' largely pointless only on the basis that whilst we have a huge number of countries who have next to no vaccination operations, and unlikely to do so in the near future, the next variant(s) are inevitable? Obviously not keen on having a killer variant, prefer the milder ones however it's almost completely out of our control.
		
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Other variants are inevitable, hopefully not Variants Of Concern (VOC). Bad VOCs are more likely to evolve in partially immunised populations because the partially immunised can filter out some of the lightweight variants. I agree that countries with next to no coverage are also a problem, so we should be sending some vax their way.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Compulsory vaccination?  It worked with Smallpox and Polio.
		
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Not sure you can compare Covid with either of those though, for a lot of the age groups the vaccine probably carries as much if not more risk than the disease itself (I've tripled Vaxxed btw before there are calls of anti vaxer) and that's before you get into the ethical issues of compulsory vaccinations.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



*I was quoting Sweden compared to UK. *Norway and Denmark were exceptional - both very wealthy countries but no denying they coped very well on deaths from covid - not too sure of their restrictive measures to other European countries such as Spain, Italy, France, UK, Portugal etc. Sweden coped better than UK, France, the EU and their GDP and extra borrowing was miles better than all of these. But the true effects of the deaths and social issues will not be fully understood for several years. But, I was also referring to what Professor Woolhouse was saying that it may have been a better result all round if we have focused massive efforts on protecting the vulnerable from the start rather than total lockdowns. Maybe yes, maybe no, maybe impossible to prove but certaimly worth thinking about. But the amount of death and other health issues caused from the last 2 years will be with us for a couple of generations and will manifest it very deeply in all areas of society - debt and rising interest being a major facor over the coming years

View attachment 40375
View attachment 40375

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But that's comparing apples to oranges. I could say that Sweden's outcomes were far worse than New Zealand which had an extremely strict lockdown so that proves that lockdowns work, but that also wouldn't be a fair comparison.

Sweden coped far less well in terms of deaths than it's Nordic neighbours, that's undeniable. Don't know the comparison in terms of the economies. Yes, Norway and Denmark are both very wealthy countries but so is Sweden.


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## Robster59 (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Not sure you can compare Covid with either of those though, for a lot of the age groups the vaccine probably carries as much if not more risk than the disease itself (I've tripled Vaxxed btw before there are calls of anti vaxer) and that's before you get into the ethical issues of compulsory vaccinations.
		
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I'd question the first part of your statement, but I was mainly reacting to the question.  Do you seriously think we would be able to do the Smallpox and Polio exercise in the modern world?  No, because there are too many idiots believing conspiracy theories.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You know that it's unreasonable to compare a country with the population density of Sweden to the UK and especially England. 

Our problem in my opinion is that we've been too easy with our Covid restrictions, containing the virus spread and protecting the economy are intrinsically linked in my opinion.  What do you think would happen to the health service if we just got on with it.

I assume by your comments on inflation and interest rates you didn't live through the 1970s and 1980s where the current interest and inflation rates would have been unthinkably low.
		
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Population density - or least urbanisation is higher in Sweden than the UK - 88% compared to 83.9%

I did live through the 70s and 80s - but totally differnet scenario from now. We are coming out of covid (at least i hope we are) with house prices at record highs, income to house prices at record highs, government debt at record levels of 2.5 trillion (a 5 fold increase since 2005), government debt to GDP at record levels for several generations of 105% (it was circa 35% in 2005) and steady at 80% area 2014 to pre covid. Equity markets are at record highs, energy prices at record highs and interest rates are at record lows. Interest rates have starting pushing higher due to very strong inflation that may not be so transitory and QE will likely end this year. Taxes are going up, living conditions are going up in all areas. I am concerned that the impact of rising interest rates and all other factors could have a big negative on peoples' lives over the coming few years - hence the worry that we are at or near the end of covid restrictions so growth can be maximised against a very difficult backdrop


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## Slime (Jan 5, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Compulsory vaccination?  It worked with Smallpox and Polio.
		
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Can't be done, the Human Rights issues will make sure of that.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Do you seriously think we would be able to do the Smallpox and Polio exercise in the modern world?  No, because there are too many idiots believing conspiracy theories.
		
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Fair enough, no argument from me on this.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Compulsory vaccination?  It worked with Smallpox and Polio.
		
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A trcky one morally but given everything i would be in favour. Macron is pushing this through and threatening to pledging to “p--- off” France’s unvaccinated in denying them access to even more aspects of daily life. If it is a choice of this or universal restrictions i am in favour


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## Crazyface (Jan 5, 2022)

Beezerk said:



			The wife has had a bad cold for a couple of days, tested negative yesterday but positive today. I'm now starting to come down with similar symptoms, headache, sore throat, cold etc.
I've booked a PCR test for tomorrow morning, work won't be happy 

Click to expand...

How can the test be negative one day and positive the next? Only asking as I've got the same and tested ok yesterday. Loads off with it at work at the mo. I'm the savior. PS I found a load of meat OOD that looked perfect. The staff have had a field day !!!


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			A trcky one morally but given everything i would be in favour. Macron is pushing this through and threatening to pledging to “p--- off” France’s unvaccinated in denying them access to even more aspects of daily life. If it is a choice of this or universal restrictions i am in favour
		
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I strongly disagree. Whilst for some ages the vaccine is a life saver there are other ages where the chances of the virus causing any particular issues are minute however the vaccine itself may cause life changing severe adverse reactions. Have a look at Maddie de Garay who took part in the Pfizer trial in the US, 12 years old and is now facing a lifetime (however long that lasts) of hospital visits and treatment. Her changes of facing a similar situation with the virus would have been far lower so why should other younger people be face with a roll of the dice just to protect those who are at risk?


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## Crazyface (Jan 5, 2022)

I've had a very long chat with a collegue today that has not been vaccinated because she caught it before she got called for the vaccine. She's not had it since and refuses to wear a mask or get the vaccine. She's had many rows with another collegue over this, one who has been triple jabbed and wears a mask. Guess who's off work with it? 

Also, another thing she said that makes you think, what has happened to the other two varients? They cannot just disappear can they? Why are there no figures now on people catching those other varients. Sure the lastest one is the dominant one, but where are the other two? 

Also......there is lot more. I'll add to this later.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I strongly disagree. Whilst for some ages the vaccine is a life saver there are other ages where the chances of the virus causing any particular issues are minute however the vaccine itself may cause life changing severe adverse reactions. Have a look at Maddie de Garay who took part in the Pfizer trial in the US, 12 years old and is now facing a lifetime (however long that lasts) of hospital visits and treatment. Her changes of facing a similar situation with the virus would have been far lower so why should other younger people be face with a roll of the dice just to protect those who are at risk?
		
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like i said a tough one and i am only reluctantly in favour if it helps enable normal life to continue. The way France looks to be doing it is not to march you in to get injected, just to exclude your ability to do many activities.

But, if implemented, there would need to be many safeguards - such as an age cut off - maybe 15 - and for any medical reasons.


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## hovis (Jan 5, 2022)

Slime said:



			Can't be done, the Human Rights issues will make sure of that.
		
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Greece didn't get that memo


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			grow up. I included reference to Nordic neighbours that did way better on deaths than Sweden *and all other EU countries*. But Sweden did better than the EU average and several other large EU countries on deaths and all others economically - and may have done better on many other social and other medical issues.

Of course i am obsessed by the cost of restrictions - we are all going to be for the rest of our lives. Also, losses of life to covid will likely pale into insignificance compared to the deaths from the other diseases that have gone undiagnosed over the past couple of years and the loss of severvices than could have been improved over the coming decade from some of the £400bn+ we have borrowed through this period. This and the resulting inflation surge are direct results of covid restrictions, economic contractions and spending
		
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The counter argument is that much of the cost of restrictions, as you put it, was largely inevitable and the pain was prolonged by indecisive and weak action. 

There is no evidence that losses to life with Covid will pale into insignificance - data for excess deaths is similar to estimated Covid deaths, some Covid deaths probably weren't Covid and some true Covid deaths were missed, so probably a zero sum game. There is no good evidence that an epidemic of late diagnosed cancer has occurred. Undoubtedly some people died earlier than they otherwise would have, but isn't that the same argument as saying that some Covid deaths were in old people who were likely to kick it soon anyway? 

And it also ignores subclinical inflammatory damage done by Covid. Good device that end-ran (heart, liver, kidney, brain, vasculature) damage occurs in people who have had mild Covid, and some of that will bite in later life. 

Sweden had a disastrous pandemic and had to row back on all the initial measures. Its economy did no better than Norway, Finland and Denmark, but the death rates were multiples higher. 

There is good data that supports what we knew before the pandemic, that making a choice between fighting Covid and protecting the economy is a false dichotomy. The laissez-faire libertarian nonsense just damages the economy more. Which was a lesson from Spanish flu in 1919 and after. Not hindsight during this pandemic, 100 years of foresight.


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## DanFST (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			like i said a tough one and i am only reluctantly in favour if it helps enable normal life to continue. The way France looks to be doing it is not to march you in to get injected, just to exclude your ability to do many activities.

But, if implemented, there would need to be many safeguards - such as an age cut off - maybe 15 - and for any medical reasons.
		
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I was berated on here when I said I was going to enjoy myself to the fullest, Even with all the jabs needed and a recent infection.

Some people just don't want a "normal life". And power to them, but it's an impossible task to get everyone to agree on risk and reward/what a normal life is.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I strongly disagree. Whilst for some ages the vaccine is a life saver there are other ages where the chances of the virus causing any particular issues are minute however the vaccine itself may cause life changing severe adverse reactions. Have a look at Maddie de Garay who took part in the Pfizer trial in the US, 12 years old and is now facing a lifetime (however long that lasts) of hospital visits and treatment. Her changes of facing a similar situation with the virus would have been far lower so why should other younger people be face with a roll of the dice just to protect those who are at risk?
		
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It certainly sounds like this girl had a complication of the vaccination, although the prices aetiology of it is not yet understood. And you have no idea if her problems are life-long, or as you seem to hint, her life will be shortened. But even so, that is just one case. There have been a lot more cases of Covid-related Multistem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS-C) and a range of other inflammatory complications ranging from Kawasaki Disease to Type 1 Diabetes. The benefit-risk for vaccination remains favourable at all ages, even in children.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It certainly sounds like this girl had a complication of the vaccination, although the prices aetiology of it is not yet understood. And you have no idea if her problems are life-long, or as you seem to hint, her life will be shortened. But even so, that is just one case. There have been a lot more cases of Covid-related Multistem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS-C) and a range of other inflammatory complications ranging from Kawasaki Disease to Type 1 Diabetes. The benefit-risk for vaccination remains favourable at all ages, even in children.
		
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It is just one case however it was out of a trial of 1,200 people, at that sort of reported risk vs reward I'd suggest she'd have been better off not having it and taking her chances with Covid as the odds there would have been heavily stacked in her favour. 

I am not sure I agree that the benefit-risk is favourable for the younger ages. It is certainly favourable for the older members/more vulnerable in society that everyone is vaccinated but for those who are at the younger end I don't think the same applies. For me personally, I wouldn't be allowing my daughter (7) to have the vaccine on that basis. 

In the specific case of Maddie I was very careful before bringing that up, I did a load of investigation around it to ensure it wasn't anti-vax propaganda (although it has been taken up by them since) and she appears to have had no underlying health conditions and she was just one of the poor unfortunates who had a severe reaction to the vaccine. There is nothing on the fact check websites or Snopes to suggest it is anything other than legit which, for me, is enough to put me off the vaccination process for those at her age. As I said, rightly (or possibly wrongly) my daughter won't be having it if they do roll it out to her age as I feel the risk just isn't worth it......at this point.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 5, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			You mean you agree with The Guardian because in this instance you agree with the articles, but on all other bits of their reporting where they don't match your views, you don't?
		
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Yes I think you’ve grasped it…I don’t normally agree with articles published in the Guardian but it’s not healthy to live in an echo chamber so for ballance I do look at it, the article I linked was one I agree with. 🤷‍♂️


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Population density - or least urbanisation is higher in Sweden than the UK - 88% compared to 83.9%

I did live through the 70s and 80s - but totally differnet scenario from now. We are coming out of covid (at least i hope we are) with house prices at record highs, income to house prices at record highs, government debt at record levels of 2.5 trillion (a 5 fold increase since 2005), government debt to GDP at record levels for several generations of 105% (it was circa 35% in 2005) and steady at 80% area 2014 to pre covid. Equity markets are at record highs, energy prices at record highs and interest rates are at record lows. Interest rates have starting pushing higher due to very strong inflation that may not be so transitory and QE will likely end this year. Taxes are going up, living conditions are going up in all areas. I am concerned that the impact of rising interest rates and all other factors could have a big negative on peoples' lives over the coming few years - hence the worry that we are at or near the end of covid restrictions so growth can be maximised against a very difficult backdrop
		
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What!  The UK has a population density of 271 per Km sq, Sweden has one of 23 per KM sq. England is 426.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			grow up...
		
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Kindly explain how that infantile comment has any relevance!


PNWokingham said:



			...I included reference to Nordic neighbours that did way better on deaths than Sweden *and all other EU countries*. But Sweden did better than the EU average and several other large EU countries on deaths and all others economically - and may have done better on many other social and other medical issues.
		
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Comparing Nordic countries, who have relatively similar (well, not too dis-similar) attitudes to so many 'societal' things is far more appropriate than comparing them to midish-European countries like Italy, France, Spain (who have similar Death rates to each other).
Basically Sweden would be expected to have had similar Death rates to Norway, Finland and Denmark (which was higher but not to level of UK, France etc), yet was considerably higher - to UK/France/Spain etc levels - than the other Nordic countries!

And such a 'debt' isn't as crippling as you make it out to be imo (even though about 15% of GDP). UK's WW2 debt lasted until 2006. To me, it's any loss of infrastructure that's more important, which is why industry and services recovery should take priority over reducing current and consequential Covid related borrowing imo.


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			And such a 'debt' isn't as crippling as you make it out to be imo (even though about 15% of GDP). UK's WW2 debt lasted until 2006. To me, it's any loss of infrastructure that's more important, which is why industry and services recovery should take priority over reducing current and consequential Covid related borrowing imo.
		
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I agree with the this although shouldn’t we be treating the Covid debt in the same way as the war debt, don’t start increasing taxes and making the present generation(s) pay it back. Make it a long (very long) term thing to allow the economy to recover properly.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			It is just one case however it was out of a trial of 1,200 people, at that sort of reported risk vs reward I'd suggest she'd have been better off not having it and taking her chances with Covid as the odds there would have been heavily stacked in her favour.

I am not sure I agree that the benefit-risk is favourable for the younger ages. It is certainly favourable for the older members/more vulnerable in society that everyone is vaccinated but for those who are at the younger end I don't think the same applies. For me personally, I wouldn't be allowing my daughter (7) to have the vaccine on that basis.

In the specific case of Maddie I was very careful before bringing that up, I did a load of investigation around it to ensure it wasn't anti-vax propaganda (although it has been taken up by them since) and she appears to have had no underlying health conditions and she was just one of the poor unfortunates who had a severe reaction to the vaccine. There is nothing on the fact check websites or Snopes to suggest it is anything other than legit which, for me, is enough to put me off the vaccination process for those at her age. As I said, rightly (or possibly wrongly) my daughter won't be having it if they do roll it out to her age as I feel the risk just isn't worth it......at this point.
		
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It was in a trial of almost 1200, but that doesn't mean the risk is 1 in 1200. It patently is much much lower. 16 million teenagers and almost 7 million pre-teens have been vaccinated in the US so far. 

Medicine in general, including vaccination, is a probability game. There is a risk of side effects and a chance of benefit with treatment and a risk of harm from the disease. The balance is the benefit-risk assessment (basically likelihood of benefit from the medicine divided by likelihood of harm from the condition or the medicine). There are a few people who have a bad outcome from treatment and a few who would never get the bad illness through dumb luck, genetics or whatever. 

It is very unwise to base a decision on one case that you do not really know anything about. We know plenty about Covid, though. Earlier today, a colleague asked me if I would advise him to have his 7 year old vaccinated. I said I would.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I agree with the this although shouldn’t we be treating the Covid debt in the same way as the war debt, don’t start increasing taxes and making the present generation(s) pay it back. Make it a long (very long) term thing to allow the economy to recover properly.
		
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Probably!


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			What!  The UK has a population density of 271 per Km sq, Sweden has one of 23 per KM sq. England is 426.
		
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Most of Sweden live in urban areas - most of the rest of the country is extremely sparsely populated, where covid spreading will be very low and lower than our rural population which is more densely packed but will still not be the places covid is spreading. So comparing urban living is a much more relevant metric for the point your were trying to make


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			It is just one case however it was out of a trial of 1,200 people, at that sort of reported risk vs reward I'd suggest she'd have been better off not having it and taking her chances with Covid as the odds there would have been heavily stacked in her favour.

I am not sure I agree that the benefit-risk is favourable for the younger ages. It is certainly favourable for the older members/more vulnerable in society that everyone is vaccinated but for those who are at the younger end I don't think the same applies. For me personally, I wouldn't be allowing my daughter (7) to have the vaccine on that basis.

In the specific case of Maddie I was very careful before bringing that up, I did a load of investigation around it to ensure it wasn't anti-vax propaganda (although it has been taken up by them since) and she appears to have had no underlying health conditions and she was just one of the poor unfortunates who had a severe reaction to the vaccine. There is nothing on the fact check websites or Snopes to suggest it is anything other than legit which, for me, is enough to put me off the vaccination process for those at her age. As I said, rightly (or possibly wrongly) my daughter won't be having it if they do roll it out to her age as I feel the risk just isn't worth it......at this point.
		
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I’m glad my son is now a man and could decide for himself, must be really difficult for some parents with small children.
Maybe @Ethan can answer, but aren’t there cases of bad reactions to a lot of “normal” vaccines, I remember a big scaremongering outburst over the MMR jab when my lad was small.

Obviously you will do right by your family as we would do ours, but every medication carries a risk and can it be proved that Covid wouldn’t of killed Maddie if she’d of been left to chance?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2022)

Looks like my trust is bucking the trend regarding critical incidents and waiting times very good https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59549800 (you may need to put Reading in and click on Royal Berkshire). We are managing 84 patients around the hospital as of today but only 6 in ICU


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## road2ruin (Jan 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It was in a trial of almost 1200, but that doesn't mean the risk is 1 in 1200. It patently is much much lower. 16 million teenagers and almost 7 million pre-teens have been vaccinated in the US so far.
		
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Agree that the actual risk is much lower however (and prepare your tin hats), Pfizer reported this study as having ZERO adverse reactions. Maddie’s case was put down to ‘anxiety’. There is zero evidence for this and appears to have been a complete cover up by Pfizer to ensure this is given the go ahead for kids. Again, I’m triple vaxxed so not trying to put anyone off having the vaccination however I won’t be giving it to my daughter.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m glad my son is now a man and could decide for himself, must be really difficult for some parents with small children.
Maybe @Ethan can answer, but aren’t there cases of bad reactions to a lot of “normal” vaccines, I remember a big scaremongering outburst over the MMR jab when my lad was small.

Obviously you will do right by your family as we would do ours, but every medication carries a risk and can it be proved that Covid wouldn’t of killed Maddie if she’d of been left to chance?
		
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Most vaccines are pretty well tolerated. Usually a sore arm and a brief flu-like illness is as much as people get. Rare serious adverse effects do occur, often related to an over-activated immune system, so stuff like Guillain-Barre Syndrome is well known to be associated with vaccinations (and other medicines). Myocarditis is also known to be associated with some vaccines, for much the same reason, but it also occurs in a range of other inflammatory states.

On the flip side, people have forgotten how serious some childhood illness can be. Measles, for example, causes an meningo-encephalitis. Ever heard about people with measles not liking light? That is meningo-encephalitis, inflammation of the brain and its covering. I had a cousin who went deaf after measles, same reason, and have seen kids with a very nasty complication, subacute sclerosising pan encephalitis (SSPE), which essentially shorted out their brains and lifetime immobile and unresponsive. Likewise rubella and mumps can be nasty. I had them all as a kid, and no complications (although I remember the darkened room).


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Agree that the actual risk is much lower however (and prepare your tin hats), Pfizer reported this study as having ZERO adverse reactions. Maddie’s case was put down to ‘anxiety’. There is zero evidence for this and appears to have been a complete cover up by Pfizer to ensure this is given the go ahead for kids. Again, I’m triple vaxxed so not trying to put anyone off having the vaccination however I won’t be giving it to my daughter.
		
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Yeah, I saw the fevered Anti-Vaxx coverage.

For a start, the causality of an event (relatedness) is determined by the clinical investigator. If the clinical investigator deems it related, Pfizer can not downgrade it to unrelated. 

Second, the important part is the report sent to FDA. This event would be deemed a serious and a severe (two different things) event regardless if whether it was considered related or not, so FDA got a narrative and details of the case.

Third, it is perfectly possible, and probably likely, that the vaccine caused serious adverse events in this kid, but you need to consider the possibility that there are other explanations, either in previously unknown risk factors or in psychological factors. It happens, and there will have been objective investigations of this girl; MRI, nerve conduction studies, EEGs etc to determine what the pathophysiological basis of the problem is. Those results may support an organic (evidence of tissue effects and other relevant tests) or functional (no evidence of tissue effects or other tests) cause. I don't know, and neither do you. 

Either way, it makes no sense to base your decision on this case and all the unknowns and intangibles involved. Covid is real and causes real effects in kids at a much higher rate than this poorly understood case. Whatever it is, we can be pretty sure it is exceptionally rare. Good luck to your daughter.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Most of Sweden live in urban areas - most of the rest of the country is extremely sparsely populated, where covid spreading will be very low and lower than our rural population which is more densely packed but will still not be the places covid is spreading. So comparing urban living is a much more relevant metric for the point your were trying to make
		
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Are you suggesting England doesn't have a large Urban population.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you suggesting England doesn't have a large Urban population.
		
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not as large as Sweden's!! 83.9% to 88% as mentioned


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## SocketRocket (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			not as large as Sweden's!! 83.9% to 88% as mentioned
		
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But England's urban population is massive compared to Swedens. If you take your reasoning as meaningful then we should be comparing Monaco to London.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Agree that the actual risk is much lower however (and prepare your tin hats), *Pfizer reported this study as having ZERO adverse reactions.* Maddie’s case was put down to ‘anxiety’. There is zero evidence for this and appears to have been a complete cover up by Pfizer to ensure this is given the go ahead for kids. Again, I’m triple vaxxed so not trying to put anyone off having the vaccination however I won’t be giving it to my daughter.
		
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Pfizer lying about drug effectiveness? Check out how many times they have been fined for false claims…….

https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/pfizer

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ne-every-for-deceitful-advertising-2009-9?amp

Plus previous for bribing Drs……

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4857499001

And lying about the effects of their drugs on kids….

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/11/pfizer-nigeria-meningitis-drug-compensation

Awful company. But they invented the iPhone of vaccines so 🤫


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			not as large as Sweden's!! 83.9% to 88% as mentioned
		
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Sweden's population in 2020 was a little over 10 million. If Sweden has 88% of those living in urban areas that's 8.8million. In 2020 the population of London was over 9 million. We have more people living in a single city than Sweden have living in all of their urban areas.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Compulsory vaccination?  It worked with Smallpox and Polio.
		
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Given the bunch of jabs babies get in the 1st few months after birth (including Polio, but Smallpox has been wiped out, so no vaccinaion reqd), you might expect that to be effective. However, neither Smallpox, nor Polio mutated to the same extent as CV-19, so a single innoculation (or a series as given to babies) is unlikely to be effective.
It's still a case of convincing the public that innoculation is the right thing to do (save for those who have adverse reaction to the vaccine).


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Most of Sweden live in urban areas - most of the rest of the country is extremely sparsely populated, where covid spreading will be very low and lower than our rural population which is more densely packed but will still not be the places covid is spreading. So comparing urban living is a much more relevant metric for the point your were trying to make
		
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So do Norwegians. 

Population density is meaningless, but urbanisation rate doesn't fully capture it either. Denmark has almost exactly the same urbanisation as Sweden, and had a fraction of the death rate. Most of Eastern Europe and the Balkans have a much lower urbanisation rate and have had bad pandemics. Japan has a higher urbanisation rate and has had a much better pandemic than the UK or Sweden. Likewise Iceland. 

On the other side, the Swedish social culture is much more stand-offish than UK, so social distancing is already baked in and should reduce risk.

Anyway you look at it, Sweden had a bad pandemic.


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Sweden's population in 2020 was a little over 10 million. If Sweden has 88% of those living in urban areas that's 8.8million. In 2020 the population of London was over 9 million. We have more people living in a single city than Sweden have living in all of their urban areas.
		
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So what? Deaths and cases are expressed per capita.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Agree that the actual risk is much lower however (and prepare your tin hats), Pfizer reported this study as having ZERO adverse reactions. Maddie’s case was put down to ‘anxiety’. There is zero evidence for this and appears to have been a complete cover up by Pfizer to ensure this is given the go ahead for kids. Again, I’m triple vaxxed so not trying to put anyone off having the vaccination however I won’t be giving it to my daughter.
		
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I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument for vaccination in kids. If one case isn’t enough evidence to indicate harm is done by the vaccine, then the very few cases of covid complications in the age range vs amount of kids who have contracted it aren’t a compelling reason to vaccinate either.  
It seems to be being encouraged to placate other sections of society, this isn’t a valid enough reason IMO. My 13 year son hasn’t been vaccinated, most of his friends have. I was against the idea from the start, this was reinforced when the increased chance of Myocarditis was indicated. 

Again not a rabid anti vaxxer. I’ve been triple jabbed, but I won’t have another one. I’ve had 2 positive ‘test’ periods I’ve the last 2 years.  First one slightly symptomatic, 2nd 7 day rest, with no symptoms. Neither time I tested + did I feel as rough as after my booster.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I was berated on here when I said I was going to _enjoy myself to the fullest_, Even with all the jabs needed and a recent infection.
...
		
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I believe it was how your wording was interpreted. That was certainly the case for me. Compare the italicised bit to 'make the best of it'.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Sweden's population in 2020 was a little over 10 million. If Sweden has 88% of those living in urban areas that's 8.8million. In 2020 the population of London was over 9 million. We have more people living in a single city than Sweden have living in all of their urban areas.
		
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When this argument was initially bouncing around I did a very crude comparison of mortality rates based on population density and the typical type of accommodation - urban mix of houses ‘v’ the typical apartment blocks you see on the continent. To a certain extent it was pretty much impossible to draw a meaningful conclusion - it’s an apples and oranges thing when trying to see a Sweden ‘v’ U.K. equation. However, drawing comparisons with other scandinavian countries is meaningful… short version, Sweden screwed up.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			So what? Deaths and cases are expressed per capita.
		
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But potential for spread is much greater in areas of high population density!


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## Leftitshort (Jan 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I believe it was how your wording was interpreted. That was certainly the case for me. Compare the italicised bit to 'make the best of it'.
		
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 That doesn’t have the same meaning though. You can’t change his post to suit the forums narrative. Maybe Dan meant what he wrote


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			...
Again not a rabid anti vaxxer. I’ve been triple jabbed, but I won’t have another one. I’ve had 2 positive ‘test’ periods I’ve the last 2 years.  First one slightly symptomatic, 2nd 7 day rest, with no symptoms. Neither time I tested + did I feel as rough as after my booster.
		
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Just remember that, without vaccination, you are at greater risk of becoming a 'spreader'. That's the main reason I'm anti-anti-vaxxers!

I agree with the kids bit of the post btw. Though vaccine evolution will, hopefully, overcome the anomolies that, unfortunately, have occured.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			But England's urban population is massive compared to Swedens. If you take your reasoning as meaningful then we should be comparing Monaco to London.
		
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It is not!! See the figures. Check Wikipedia. Sweden has a higher percentage of people living in urban areas than the UK. That is a fact


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Agree that the actual risk is much lower however (and prepare your tin hats), Pfizer reported this study as having ZERO adverse reactions. Maddie’s case was put down to ‘anxiety’. There is zero evidence for this and appears to have been a complete cover up by Pfizer to ensure this is given the go ahead for kids. Again, I’m triple vaxxed so not trying to put anyone off having the vaccination however I won’t be giving it to my daughter.
		
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What? Pfizer would do such a thing, they wouldn’t lie would they? I thought they and the pharmaceutical industry were ethical! 🤭


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			That doesn’t have the same meaning though. You can’t change his post to suit the forums narrative. Maybe Dan meant what he wrote
		
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1. Not trying to change his post!
2. Note the 1st 2 words of my post!


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## Leftitshort (Jan 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Just remember that, without vaccination, you are at greater risk of becoming a 'spreader'. That's the main reason I'm anti-anti-vaxxers!

I agree with the kids bit of the post btw. Though vaccine evolution will, hopefully, overcome the anomolies that, unfortunately, have occured.
		
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Agree in adults, are you at greater risk if asymptomatic though? I don’t know. How many jabs is enough though? 2/3/4??? & does each jab increase the risk of an adverse reaction. Don’t know either


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			But potential for spread is much greater in areas of high population density!
		
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Pop density is one factor, but may not be the most important one. In any case, population density is also per capita. Small places can have a high population density.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Most of Sweden live in urban areas - most of the rest of the country is extremely sparsely populated, where covid spreading will be very low and lower than our rural population which is more densely packed but will still not be the places covid is spreading. So comparing urban living is a much more relevant metric for the point your were trying to make
		
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Exactly the reason why your comparison of Sweden and UK data was 'invalid'!!


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			...are you at greater risk if asymptomatic though? I don’t know...
		
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I'd guess so - as greater potential to 'forget the discipline' of maintaining separation etc.


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## Imurg (Jan 5, 2022)

Can you really, genuinely, compare any country's dealing with Covid?
Different populations, cultures, seasons...hell, do we even know if the numbers are derived in the same way and are accurate?
It just seems a waste of time trying to make comparisons.


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## GB72 (Jan 5, 2022)

Ok how quickly Omicron spreads is scary. New year's Eve party at my village. Not very busy in a big village hall. Going by messages today I reckon 60-70% are now testing positive. Nobody there had any symptoms


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2022)

Any thoughts on the new IHU variant. Only 12 cases so far but more mutations than Omicrom https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/covid-ihu-variant-france-omicron-b974964.html


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Can you really, genuinely, compare any country's dealing with Covid?
Different populations, cultures, seasons...hell, do we even know if the numbers are derived in the same way and are accurate?
It just seems a waste of time trying to make comparisons.
		
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That's why I only 'compared' 'Deaths per 1M of Population' - and was selective about the 'regions'. Numbers of certain countries, Russia for example, just don't seem right.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Exactly the reason why your comparison of Sweden and UK data was 'invalid'!!
		
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Whatever. Similar urban density, same continent, but comparison invalid. Thanks for pointing out


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 5, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Whatever. Similar urban density, same continent, but comparison invalid. Thanks for pointing out
		
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Any reason that you didn't use Denmark with an urban density of 88.1%, or Norway with 83% urban density, or even Finland with 86.1%? Similar urban density, same continent but all three have far lower Covid deaths than Sweden.


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## IainP (Jan 5, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Ok how quickly Omicron spreads is scary. New year's Eve party at my village. Not very busy in a big village hall. Going by messages today I reckon 60-70% are now testing positive. Nobody there had any symptoms
		
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Not for the first time I've found it interesting just how quickly the virus can move around the globe. Here's the world view (of cases)


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## PNWokingham (Jan 5, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Any reason that you didn't use Denmark with an urban density of 88.1%, or Norway with 83% urban density, or even Finland with 86.1%? Similar urban density, same continent but all three have far lower Covid deaths than Sweden.
		
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I already acknowledged that the other Nordic countries all did great in covid deaths compared to all of Europe. I was merely highlighting that Sweden did better than we did on deaths and in a different postcode on  costs and likely much better on other social issues while also not locking down - in the context that total lockdowns may have been less successful than targeted large assistance for the vulnerable. The fact that other countries did better than Sweden on deaths, although not on economics is another point. Anyway I have repeated myself enough


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## Ethan (Jan 5, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Can you really, genuinely, compare any country's dealing with Covid?
Different populations, cultures, seasons...hell, do we even know if the numbers are derived in the same way and are accurate?
It just seems a waste of time trying to make comparisons.
		
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Well, the definition of 'dead' is reasonably universal, what we call a 'hard endpoint'. Some comparisons are more valid than others.


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## Captainron (Jan 5, 2022)

I can’t watch Novak Djokovic play in the Australian Open and I’m happy about why they binned him off.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

Captainron said:



			I can’t watch Novak Djokovic play in the Australian Open and I’m happy about why they binned him off.
		
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Whoever blundered on his visa app (if that's what happened) saved Aus a lot of aggro!
He's got over a fortnight to get over any bad effects of getting jabbed now!


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## Imurg (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, the definition of 'dead' is reasonably universal, what we call a 'hard endpoint'. Some comparisons are more valid than others.
		
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But are the numbers derived from the same data? Over the same time frame, using the same criteria? 
Unless countries are reporting using the same data it's incomparable.
Spain, for example, didn't post figures at weekends for a long time and yet there wasn't a spike on a Monday....10k cases and "x" deaths Monday to Friday   - nothing on a weekend - 10k cases and "x" deaths Monday to Friday again. So nobody caught it or died at the weekends?
We even changed our reporting to include deaths within 28 days of a +ve test..
What's the reporting criteria in other countries..?
All the same? All accurate?
I doubt it.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Can you really, genuinely, compare any country's dealing with Covid?
Different populations, cultures, seasons...hell, do we even know if the numbers are derived in the same way and are accurate?
It just seems a waste of time trying to make comparisons.
		
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Depends on whether any 'conclusions' depend on the particular differences. Some/many trends can still be drawn, even with inaccurate data, as long as it's explainable/consistent, or the particular change point is highlighted.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			But are the numbers derived from the same data? Over the same time frame, using the same criteria?
Unless countries are reporting using the same data it's incomparable.
Spain, for example, didn't post figures at weekends for a long time and yet there wasn't a spike on a Monday....10k cases and "x" deaths Monday to Friday   - nothing on a weekend - 10k cases and "x" deaths Monday to Friday again. So nobody caught it or died at the weekends?
We even changed our reporting to include deaths within 28 days of a +ve test..
What's the reporting criteria in other countries..?
All the same? All accurate?
I doubt it.
		
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Data sets are often pretty comparable. Most European countries have similar standards for case definitions, and so long as relevant differences are known, they can be accounted for. Belgium has a stricter definition than the UK, so their numbers are probably a bit inflated compared to the UK. Usually the trends with time are more important than the absolute numbers. The UK definition of 28 days was set pretty early and has not changed as far as I am aware. Moving averages deal with the problem of weekend and holiday reporting variations.


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## Rooter (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Ok how quickly Omicron spreads is scary. New year's Eve party at my village. Not very busy in a big village hall. Going by messages today I reckon 60-70% are now testing positive. Nobody there had any symptoms
		
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It would be really interesting to get a true view on how many did a LFT before attending, I would wager not everyone! And a few wouldn't have done it just in case it was positive! Blind faith over science so not to ruin the plans.. Obviously you will never know, but surely one of them would have tested positive I reckon...


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## larmen (Jan 6, 2022)

maybe compulsory testing might be a better solution than vax mandates.
Test on Sunday and you know how the next week will look like.


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## Robster59 (Jan 6, 2022)

We still regularly do our LFT, twice a week.  We have an extra couple of packets as we went to the Pharmacy to get one, and he gave us two when we told him we were using them to test before going into a care home (not for sale BTW ).  
I've no doubt there will be quite a few more variants of Covid that are waiting to come out, some will be more virulent/lethal than others.  Only time will tell.


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## GB72 (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			It would be really interesting to get a true view on how many did a LFT before attending, I would wager not everyone! And a few wouldn't have done it just in case it was positive! Blind faith over science so not to ruin the plans.. Obviously you will never know, but surely one of them would have tested positive I reckon...
		
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A fair point and there are some people who will only test of they feel ill. 

What is also interesting is that, so far at least, nobody has had anything even looking like serious symptoms. Some were totally unaware that they had it until their kids tested postive on an LFT for school and they then tested and found they were positive. Most have symptoms aki to a bad cold, one has what I would class as moderate flu symptoms. This is a wide age range from kids to people in their 60s and 70s.


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## Rooter (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			What is also interesting is that, so far at least, nobody has had anything even looking like serious symptoms. Some were totally unaware that they had it until their kids tested postive on an LFT for school and they then tested and found they were positive. Most have symptoms aki to a bad cold, one has what I would class as moderate flu symptoms. This is a wide age range from kids to people in their 60s and 70s.
		
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That's really good to hear, I wonder again what the vaccination stats are like?


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## GB72 (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			That's really good to hear, I wonder again what the vaccination stats are like?
		
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From the ones I know, and I know most of them, fully jabbed, boosters if eligible.


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## Rooter (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			From the ones I know, and I know most of them, fully jabbed, boosters if eligible.
		
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The system works?


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## theoneandonly (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			The system works?
		
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We have 2 cases in the house, neither is isolating and as yet wife and I haven't caught it. I can only assume the booster is doing its job.


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## patricks148 (Jan 6, 2022)

Got my test results back this morning, positive, least I now only have to isolate for 7 days from my LF as I understand it. Worst oart is my throat is so sore, swallowing is agony


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## Robster59 (Jan 6, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Got my test results back this morning, positive, least I now only have to isolate for 7 days from my LF as I understand it. Worst oart is my throat is so sore, swallowing is agony
		
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Still, it gives you lots of free time to moderate.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2022)

larmen said:



			maybe compulsory testing might be a better solution than vax mandates.
Test on Sunday and you know how the next week will look like.
		
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Eh?
How about test on Sunday, meet a positive on Monday and become infected
..........for the rest of the week 🙄


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## larmen (Jan 6, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Eh?
How about test on Sunday, meet a positive on Monday and become infected
..........for the rest of the week 🙄
		
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Obviously the positive guy would have also tested on Sunday and wouldn't be out. And of course on symptoms you could do additional tests, and on test and trace, ...

My point is, if we all have a test a week by default then we minimise a lot of risk. The unsymptomatics that currently just pass by have a chance to be identified.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2022)

larmen said:



			Obviously the positive guy would have also tested on Sunday and wouldn't be out. And of course on symptoms you could do additional tests, and on test and trace, ...

My point is, if we all have a test a week by default then we minimise a lot of risk. The unsymptomatics that currently just pass by have a chance to be identified.
		
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What is being "forgotten"(conveniently?) is that LFT tests giving negative results are not reliable. Unlike those which give positive results.
That has been said many times , but it seems to me to be convenient to regard the neg tests as conclusive.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

larmen said:



			Obviously the positive guy would have also tested on Sunday and wouldn't be out. And of course on symptoms you could do additional tests, and on test and trace, ...

My point is, if we all have a test a week by default then we* minimise a lot of* risk. The unsymptomatics that currently just pass by have a chance to be identified.
		
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Er...'reduce some'...


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What is being "forgotten"(conveniently?) is that LFT tests giving negative results are not reliable. Unlike those which give positive results.
That has been said many times , but it seems to me to be convenient to regard the neg tests as conclusive.
		
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It hasn't been forgotten. A positive LFT is very likely to be a true positive, and a true negative is very likely to get a negative test. That leaves a group in between, the true positives that get a negative test (false negatives). There are very few false positives.

All tests have to balance the false negatives and positives, you can't have both at a very high level. so LFTs are really designed to confirm negativity where the great majority are expected to be negative (i.e. low population prevalence) because the actual number of false negatives will then be pretty low. 

It doesn't work so well when LFTs are used in different risk populations, such as symptomatic patients in whom the risk of being positive is much higher because the number of false negatives is also higher.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Ok how quickly Omicron spreads is scary. New year's Eve party at my village. Not very busy in a big village hall. Going by messages today I reckon 60-70% are now testing positive. Nobody there had any symptoms
		
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Which is why I’ve decided to cancel the Burns Supper and Ceilidh I have organised for the 22nd.  Venue and some who would attend have indicated they would be happy for it to go ahead, suggesting allprovide a -ve LFT beforehand,  But I am not convinced by accuracy of LFTs on an individual basis, and have other family risks to consider. 

Unfortunately as I am not only the organiser but the host, chairman, and main provider of all things Burns on the evening, my deciding to not attend mean I essentially have a veto over any decision my fundraising committee might make, or have made, to go ahead with it. 

A great pity…but I am doing what I am being encouraged to do the Prime Minister. I am using my common sense to not take any non-essential risks, including attending indoor gatherings in quite enclosed and compact venues.  There will be a good number of disappointed people who may give me a bit of angst, so be it, but there will be others who will be relieved.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why I’ve decided to cancel the Burns Supper and Ceilidh I have organised for the 22nd....
		
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Common sense decision imo.


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## GB72 (Jan 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is why I’ve decided to cancel the Burns Supper and Ceilidh I have organised for the 22nd.  Venue and some who would attend have indicated they would be happy for it to go ahead, suggesting allprovide a -ve LFT beforehand,  But I am not convinced by accuracy of LFTs on an individual basis, and have other family risks to consider.

Unfortunately as I am not only the organiser but the host, chairman, and main provider of all things Burns on the evening, my deciding to not attend mean I essentially have a veto over any decision my fundraising committee might make, or have made, to go ahead with it.

A great pity…but I am doing what I am being encouraged to do the Prime Minister. I am using my common sense to not take any non-essential risks, including attending indoor gatherings in quite enclosed and compact venues.  There will be a good number of disappointed people who may give me a bit of angst, so be it, but there will be others who will be relieved.
		
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Feel free to use my NYE story as a cautionary tale. I was shocked that a big room with not that many people in, all of whom were fully vaxed and sensible people with no symptoms, ended up with over half of them with covid a few days later.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Feel free to use my NYE story as a cautionary tale. I was shocked that a big room with not that many people in, all of whom were fully vaxed and sensible people with no symptoms, ended up with over half of them with covid a few days later.
		
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Your story was very helpful for me to read.  I had already this morning emailed the chair of our fundraising comm with my decision,  but I was still feeling a little bit worried about reactions of some. Your story convinced me that I have absolutely made the right decision, -LFTs or not, and will use it as required.  So thankyou indeed.👍


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## Imurg (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Feel free to use my NYE story as a cautionary tale. I was shocked that a big room with not that many people in, all of whom were fully vaxed and sensible people with no symptoms, ended up with over half of them with covid a few days later.
		
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What is scary about your story is how many times it was replicated over Xmas and New Year and, probably, with less caution......


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			What is scary about your story is how many times it was replicated over Xmas and New Year and, probably, with less caution......
		
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As long as people were able to go out and get pissed, thats all that matters.....


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## DanFST (Jan 6, 2022)

What's great about the story.

No one has any remotely serious effects.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It hasn't been forgotten. A positive LFT is very likely to be a true positive, and a true negative is very likely to get a negative test. That leaves a group in between, the true positives that get a negative test (false negatives). There are very few false positives.

All tests have to balance the false negatives and positives, you can't have both at a very high level. so LFTs are really designed to confirm negativity where the great majority are expected to be negative (i.e. low population prevalence) because the actual number of false negatives will then be pretty low. 

It doesn't work so well when LFTs are used in different risk populations, such as symptomatic patients in whom the risk of being positive is much higher because the number of false negatives is also higher.
		
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I think that's what I said, though not so comprehensively.
When   I wrote it I was recollecting the number of times said on this thread that someone doing a LFT test who got a positive result was almost certain to be positive in reality. Whereas if the LFT gave a negative result, it could be that it was "reporting" falsely and the tester could actually be positive.

So, I think we are on the same hymn sheet.

When I said "forgotten" I was inferring some criticism of what seems to me to be an increasing reliance of LFTs to be an absolute proof of infection or no infection.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I think that's what I said, though not so comprehensively.
When   I wrote it I was recollecting the number of times said on this thread that someone doing a LFT test who got a positive result was almost certain to be positive in reality. Whereas if the LFT gave a negative result, it could be that it was "reporting" falsely and the tester could actually be positive.

So, I think we are on the same hymn sheet.

When I said "forgotten" I was inferring some criticism of what seems to me to be an increasing reliance of LFTs to be an absolute proof of infection or no infection.
		
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Yes, I wasn't disagreeing, just waffling on a bit more in the same direction.


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## Billysboots (Jan 6, 2022)

My daughter went into college yesterday for a test prior to returning to school today. Whilst she was negative the college have emailed parents to say a “significant” proportion of students returned positive tests, few, if any, displaying any symptoms. That sort of situation seems to be replicated wherever you turn, including in examples posted here. So it seems omicron is absolutely spreading like wildfire, and then some.

Given the very gradual increase in ICU patients in comparison, as depicted in official data, is anyone here ever going to concede that omicron is nothing like the threat most European governments perceived it to be and that, in fact, the advice of the South African experts appears to have been right all along?

I accept many NHS Trusts appear to have declared critical incidents, but it seems to be that staffing is the primary issue, with huge numbers self isolating, rather than pressure being brought to bear by admissions. I saw a graph this morning which confirmed that the proportion of hospital beds occupied by Covid patients is very small. The proportion occupied by people in those beds directly because of Covid, rather than those who have been admitted for other reasons, must be even smaller.

Maybe the decision makers in England have actually followed the science after all, rather than following the knee jerk decisions of their counterparts in Wales and Scotland? I’m not expecting to be killed in the stampede of replies accepting that full lockdown was not necessary this time round after all.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Feel free to use my NYE story as a cautionary tale. I was shocked that a big room with not that many people in, all of whom were fully vaxed and sensible people with no symptoms, ended up with over half of them with covid a few days later.
		
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I wasn't shocked, I must say. It has been "an inconvenient truth " ever since the start of this thing, that people indoors in ordinary ventilated rooms, as in most places- bars , restaurants, etc, breathing each other's expelled air, is what is readily spreading this virus. To be in such a place without a mask is quite risky. If it isn't necessary to do it....then ...???


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## larmen (Jan 6, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			When I said "forgotten" I was inferring some criticism of what seems to me to be an increasing reliance of LFTs to be an absolute proof of infection or no infection.
		
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What I wanted to express is that an ADDITIONAL test on a given week day for all will catch a lot (a few/some/a couple) of infection which otherwise would just go around and stay in circulation. It would also get the never testers (fear of positives) tactually do a test.
Of course, symptoms and such I wouldn't want to change what we are currently supposed to do, just an extra test.

And a test that works at X% is better than no test.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			My daughter went into college yesterday for a test prior to returning to school today. Whilst she was negative the college have emailed parents to say a “significant” proportion of students returned positive tests, few, if any, displaying any symptoms. That sort of situation seems to be replicated wherever you turn, including in examples posted here. So it seems omicron is absolutely spreading like wildfire, and then some.

Given the very gradual increase in ICU patients in comparison, as depicted in official data, is anyone here ever going to concede that omicron is nothing like the threat most European governments perceived it to be and that, in fact, the advice of the South African experts appears to have been right all along?

I accept many NHS Trusts appear to have declared critical incidents, but it seems to be that staffing is the primary issue, with huge numbers self isolating, rather than pressure being brought to bear by admissions. I saw a graph this morning which confirmed that the proportion of hospital beds occupied by Covid patients is very small. The proportion occupied by people in those beds directly because of Covid, rather than those who have been admitted for other reasons, must be even smaller.

Maybe the decision makers in England have actually followed the science after all, rather than following the knee jerk decisions of their counterparts in Wales and Scotland? I’m not expecting to be killed in the stampede of replies accepting that full lockdown was not necessary this time round after all.
		
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I think you are mixing up guessing what the true threat will be with deciding what response is prudent. The two are not the same. Even if there is evidence that Omicron is milder, it is unwise to assume that as the affected population changes, then you can accurately assess how it will play out. Taking the right steps will always, i successful, be accused of over-reacting. The SA Doctor Coetzee who bemoaned the UK response, is a GP and head of the SA version of the BMA. She is not an expert in Covid. There is a well known SA expert, Professor Penny Moore from The National Institute for Communicable Diseases in South Africa, who was rather more concerned than Coetzee about the effects of Omicron, not just directly but as a basis for further mutation. Reports have also emerged of people who have Omicron and flu at the same time, not something seen previously at any significant level, and of another Omicron sub-variant. 

On NHS staffing, it was already in a bad state before Covid and has been stretched to breaking point. Lots of staff are fed up, exhausted and undervalued and looking at doing something else, or doing it somewhere else. Covid patients have an effect on hospitals beyond their number. 

The decision-makers have not followed the science. SAGE, Chris Whitty and various external bodies have advised more caution and greater intervention and the Govt have not done it.


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## Imurg (Jan 6, 2022)

I posted a Twitter thread a while back about the maths..
To summarise it..if Delta was putting 100 people a day in hospital for every 10k cases and Omicron is 10 times weaker but much easier to catch...300k cases puts 300 a day in hospital.
May be a bit simplistic but...it makes you think..


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## Billysboots (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The decision-makers have not followed the science. SAGE, Chris Whitty and various external bodies have advised more caution and greater intervention *and the Govt have not done it.*

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So maybe they have been bold and got it right?

I’m never going to deny Covid. Not for one second. Nor will I deny people get seriously ill and die as a result. But, as of yesterday if the data I have seen is correct there are just over 17000 people in U.K. hospitals who have tested positive for Covid, with just under 1000 on ventilation - that’s  0.025% and 0.001% of the population respectively, despite an enormous corresponding surge in infections, which we are now almost three weeks into.

There has to be a balance struck between protecting the NHS, limiting excess deaths and safeguarding the economy, the futures of our children and everything else we deem normal in our lives. Maybe the government, in England at least, have finally got the balance right and are making appropriate decisions.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			So maybe they have been bold and got it right?

I’m never going to deny Covid. Not for one second. Nor will I deny people get seriously ill and die as a result. But, as of yesterday if the data I have seen is correct there are just over 17000 people in U.K. hospitals who have tested positive for Covid, with just under 1000 on ventilation - that’s  0.025% and 0.001% of the population respectively, despite an enormous corresponding surge in infections, which we are now almost three weeks into.

*There has to be a balance struck between protecting the NHS, limiting excess deaths and safeguarding the economy,* the futures of our children and everything else we deem normal in our lives. Maybe the government, in England at least, have finally got the balance right and are making appropriate decisions.
		
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This bolded bit is one of the central issues. Some see the public health effort and protecting the economy as being in tension with each other, and others see the two as being inextricably bound together. The first group make choices between the two, the second see effectively fighting the virus as the ket to protecting the economy. Most of the UK Govt are in the first camp, many economists in the second. 

On hospital occupancy, 17000 people in hospital with a preventable condition seems like quite a lot to me, but how many people have been in hospital overall? Over half a million. And 150k have died. A pandemic is a time to be careful, not bold.


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			So maybe they have been bold and got it right?

I’m never going to deny Covid. Not for one second. Nor will I deny people get seriously ill and die as a result. But, as of yesterday if the data I have seen is correct there are just over 17000 people in U.K. hospitals who have tested positive for Covid, with just under 1000 on ventilation - that’s  0.025% and 0.001% of the population respectively, despite an enormous corresponding surge in infections, which we are now almost three weeks into.

There has to be a balance struck between protecting the NHS, limiting excess deaths and safeguarding the economy, the futures of our children and everything else we deem normal in our lives. Maybe the government, in England at least, have finally got the balance right and are making appropriate decisions.
		
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Showing it as a percentage of population isn’t as pertinent as showing it as a percentage of available beds.


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## Crazyface (Jan 6, 2022)

If, as it seems, Omi causes less health problems, and is speading like the proverbial wildfire, we should be saying, pop a couple of paracetamol and get into work, for those that it is like just a cold. 

Also, isn't this the third varient?  And it's getting weaker. Maybe the next one, if indeed there is another one, will be not worth reporting on. Lets hope so.


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## Billysboots (Jan 6, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Showing it as a percentage of population isn’t as pertinent as showing it as a percentage of available beds.
		
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If I can find the graph, Brian, I’ll post it. The proportion is not as big as many perhaps believe.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			If I can find the graph, Brian, I’ll post it. The proportion is not as big as many perhaps believe.
		
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In absolute terms, the proportion is not huge, but it has a disproportionate effect on hospital activity.


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## DanFST (Jan 6, 2022)

I'm incredibly uninformed, so may be very stupid. 

If nightingales are operational, can we not staff those with medical staff that are isolating? In London there should be an abundance of staff available.


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## Billysboots (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			This bolded bit is one of the central issues. Some see the public health effort and protecting the economy as being in tension with each other, and others see the two as being inextricably bound together. The first group make choices between the two, the second see effectively fighting the virus as the ket to protecting the economy. Most of the UK Govt are in the first camp, many economists in the second.

On hospital occupancy, 17000 people in hospital with a preventable condition seems like quite a lot to me, but how many people have been in hospital overall? Over half a million. And 150k have died. A pandemic is a time to be careful, not bold.
		
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Nothing there I disagree with. And whilst a huge number have been in hospital and have died, and caution has always been an option I far preferred, I do think the signs are that the time is approaching when the economy and a return to normal, whatever that is, will start to take precedence.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 6, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I'm incredibly uninformed, so may be very stupid.

If nightingales are operational, can we not staff those with medical staff that are isolating? In London there should be an abundance of staff available.
		
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I think France are doing something similar for positive healthcare workers. Seems a decent plan but what about travelling into work etc...


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## road2ruin (Jan 6, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			I think France are doing something similar for positive healthcare workers. Seems a decent plan but what about travelling into work etc...
		
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There must be enough staff who have their own transport that you could make use of though? Granted, if you have to take public transport then you'll probably just have to sit and suffer however if you're going from home to work and back again in the car then this would probably help alleviate some of the staffing issues.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 6, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			There must be enough staff who have their own transport that you could make use of though? Granted, if you have to take public transport then you'll probably just have to sit and suffer however if you're going from home to work and back again in the car then this would probably help alleviate some of the staffing issues.
		
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Agreed. Can't see the NHS going for it though!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wasn't shocked, I must say. It has been "an inconvenient truth " ever since the start of this thing, that people indoors in ordinary ventilated rooms, as in most places- bars , restaurants, etc, breathing each other's expelled air, is what is readily spreading this virus. To be in such a place without a mask is quite risky. If it isn't necessary to do it....then ...???
		
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Yet still a good number who I have spoken with and who would attend my event on the 22nd are OK for it to go ahead…saying we have to get back to normal at some point (as I agree that we must - whatever that normal might be), and so I worry that I am over-reacting.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			...
There has to be a balance struck between protecting the NHS, limiting excess deaths and safeguarding the economy, the futures of our children and everything else we deem normal in our lives...
		
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If folk need to be in hospital, that, to me, takes priority over 'being bold'!
To me, the 'balance' (actually, 'priority') has to be limiting excess deaths #1; protecting the NHS (well, hospitals) #2; economy #3. My reasoning is that #1 is an absolute must, #2 can be managed - and is essential for #1 and #3 economy will recover in due course.
I can't believe anyone is considering different priorities, though planning for when they can is acceptable - and expected.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			If I can find the graph, Brian, I’ll post it. The proportion is not as big as many perhaps believe.
		
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In this doc? https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/


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## D-S (Jan 6, 2022)

I am all for caution and common sense as well as personal responsibility, but I would like to know what further restrictions should be in place to prevent spread and the impact on hospitals. 
As far as I can see across Europe and elsewhere there are a whole gamut of preventative measures being employed but with the notable exception of New Zealand, cases are soaring everywhere even in places where winter is not a factor (Australia had 60k plus cases yesterday).
What else can we do? The slightly different protocols in our 4 nations do not seem to have made a significant difference to case numbers.


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## GB72 (Jan 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yet still a good number who I have spoken with and who would attend my event on the 22nd are OK for it to go ahead…saying we have to get back to normal at some point (as I agree that we must - whatever that normal might be), and so I worry that I am over-reacting.
		
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I think that you are in an a very difficult position. There are, no doubt, many people who feel that they need to get on with things and would go to your event but they are not the ones who have to carry the burden if there is a serious outbreak or serious illness. To attend is conscience free, to organise is not.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I'm incredibly uninformed, so may be very stupid.

If nightingales are operational, can we not staff those with medical staff that are isolating? In London there should be an abundance of staff available.
		
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There really isn't an abundance of staff in London. There is a chronic shortage. Nightingales increase the overall number of staff needed to cover a given number of patients. The overwhelming opinion of doctors posting on a medical social media site I frequent think Nightingales are a bad idea. There is rarely a shortage of beds as such, there is usually a shortage of people to staff them. The idea of getting people out of hospital as soon as they are well enough is critical.


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## GB72 (Jan 6, 2022)

Out of interest, and this may be a totally naive view on things, but has Omicron started to make the use of the term 'with covid' as far as admissions and deaths are concerned an issue. We know Omicron spreads quickly and is going through the UK like wildfire. There is also reports (right or wrong) that it is a milder form of Covid. Does that mean that, statistically, there is a much higher chance of any person being admitted to hospital having covid but a reduced chance that the cause of the admission or, sadly, death is statistically less likely to be as a result of the covid infection. 

Again, not belittling any situation nor am i making a stance on any side, just looking at it objectively as these are the stats that the general public look at most.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I wasn't shocked, I must say. It has been "an inconvenient truth " ever since the start of this thing, that people indoors in ordinary ventilated rooms, as in most places- bars , restaurants, etc, breathing each other's expelled air, is what is readily spreading this virus. To be in such a place without a mask is quite risky. If it isn't necessary to do it....then ...???
		
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I think that was kinda known all along. The application of the Rule of 6 inside and outside, the nonsense of harassing people walking on the windswept Derbyshire hills started, limiting outdoor exercise, even not being able to touch the flagstick on golf courses were all unnecessary.


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## Billysboots (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



*If folk need to be in hospital, that, to me, takes priority over 'being bold'!
To me, the 'balance' (actually, 'priority') has to be limiting excess deaths #1;* protecting the NHS (well, hospitals) #2; economy #3. My reasoning is that #1 is an absolute must, #2 can be managed - and is essential for #1 and #3 economy will recover in due course.
I can't believe anyone is considering different priorities, though planning for when they can is acceptable - and expected.
		
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But at what point do you start to think you’ve done enough? When there is nobody in hospital with Covid? A couple of hundred? Or when excess deaths are down to three figures, or two?

Covid is here to stay, so it must follow that hospital admissions and deaths will be a consequence. But we can’t always have restrictions because of it. There must come a time when self isolation with no symptoms is done away with, and we’re told to stay at home if we’re ill. And Welsh football fans are allowed back in grounds. In short, there has to be a time when life returns to something like the normal we used to know.

Until someone somewhere decides that can happen then prioritising, striking a balance or whatever we want to call it, has to continue and must be proportionate to the ongoing threat.

All of which brings me back to my original point, that being that, in the face of the current numbers in hospital and on ventilators in the context of the sky high numbers of daily infections, maybe the balance/priorities have been accurately assessed after all.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, and this may be a totally naive view on things, but has Omicron started to make the use of the term 'with covid' as far as admissions and deaths are concerned an issue. We know Omicron spreads quickly and is going through the UK like wildfire. There is also reports (right or wrong) that it is a milder form of Covid. Does that mean that, statistically, there is a much higher chance of any person being admitted to hospital having covid but a reduced chance that the cause of the admission or, sadly, death is statistically less likely to be as a result of the covid infection.

Again, not belittling any situation nor am i making a stance on any side, just looking at it objectively as these are the stats that the general public look at most.
		
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So-called "Incidental Covid" has been a factor all along. It is debatable what it really means anyway. It would not be uncommon for an older person to be admitted with vague symptoms and just having gone off their feet or are more confused. They get into hospital and have a range of clinical signs, funny looking chest X-ray, a bit of anaemia and then they test positive for Covid. Are they a Covid case or not? Probably a mix of things.

We also know that people catch Covid in hospital. If you were admitted to have your appendix removed and caught Covid in hospital when a pretty nurse coughed on you, but you needed treatment for that case of Covid, then you are still a Covid case as far as I am concerned.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But at what point do you start to think you’ve done enough? When there is nobody in hospital with Covid? A couple of hundred? Or when excess deaths are down to three figures, or two?
		
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I'm pretty sure there are folk considering (or at least getting around to considering) this sort of question already.


Billysboots said:



			...
Covid is here to stay, so it must follow that hospital admissions and deaths will be a consequence. But we can’t always have restrictions because of it. There must come a time when self isolation with no symptoms is done away with, and we’re told to stay at home if we’re ill. And Welsh football fans are allowed back in grounds. In short, there has to be a time when life returns to something like the normal we used to know.

Until someone somewhere decides that can happen then prioritising, striking a balance or whatever we want to call it, has to continue and must be proportionate to the ongoing threat.

All of which brings me back to my original point, that being that,* in the face of the current numbers in hospital and on ventilators in the context of the sky high numbers of daily infections, maybe the balance/priorities have been accurately assessed after all*.
		
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I agree


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## GB72 (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			So-called "Incidental Covid" has been a factor all along. It is debatable what it really means anyway. It would not be uncommon for an older person to be admitted with vague symptoms and just having gone off their feet or are more confused. They get into hospital and have a range of clinical signs, funny looking chest X-ray, a bit of anaemia and then they test positive for Covid. Are they a Covid case or not? Probably a mix of things.

We also know that people catch Covid in hospital. If you were admitted to have your appendix removed and caught Covid in hospital when a pretty nurse coughed on you, but you needed treatment for Covid, then you are still a Covid case as far as I am concerned.
		
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I agree, it has been an issue all along but was just looking as to whether it is swung to a degree as to make the figures significantly less relevant with a far higher chance of having covid on admission but a lower chance (Possibly) of covid being the cause of that admission.


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## road2ruin (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			We also know that people catch Covid in hospital. If you were admitted to have your appendix removed and caught Covid in hospital when a pretty nurse coughed on you, but you needed treatment for Covid, then you are still a Covid case as far as I am concerned.
		
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But there are an awful lot of people who went in to have their appendix removed, caught Covid and didn't need any treatment for the Covid part who are still lumped into the Covid numbers. That's why they need to be taken with a pinch of salt IMO.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

road2ruin said:



*But there are an awful lot of people who went in to have their appendix removed, caught Covid and didn't need any treatment for the Covid part who are still lumped into the Covid numbers.* That's why they need to be taken with a pinch of salt IMO.
		
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Are there? Can you point to somewhere showing those numbers?


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## ExRabbit (Jan 6, 2022)

Just over 1 million new cases in the last 6 days - and I guess we haven't had the full impact from NYE yet. 

Should we be worried?


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## road2ruin (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Are there? Can you point to somewhere showing those numbers?
		
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It's been readily reported over the last few weeks that a lot (30-40%) of Covid admissions are people that went in with another ailment and were then tested positive for Covid. They weren't there for Covid, didn't need treatment for Covid however are included within the hospital admissions as a Covid number.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			It's been readily reported over the last few weeks that a lot (30-40%) of Covid admissions are people that went in with another ailment and were then tested positive for Covid. They weren't there for Covid, didn't need treatment for Covid however are included within the hospital admissions as a Covid number.
		
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I'm not doubting that that's happening. I'm simply challenging the veracity of the claimed numbers!
It's easy for someone with an 'alternative narrative' to simply invent numbers to support their story!
I'd like to see those cases listed separately from 'because of Covid', but it might be too late.


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## GB72 (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not doubting that that's happening. I'm simply challenging the veracity of the claimed numbers!
It's easy for someone with an 'alternative narrative' to simply invent numbers to support their story!
		
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My point was not based on a narrative but rather on probablity. If omicron is more infectious and more people have it then there is more chance of having it on admission but if (and a big if) it is milder, it is less likely to be the reason for going to hospital. Maybe now the figure needs to be hosital admissions due to covid and not with covid.


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## D-S (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not doubting that that's happening. I'm simply challenging the veracity of the claimed numbers!
It's easy for someone with an 'alternative narrative' to simply invent numbers to support their story!
I'd like to see those cases listed separately from 'because of Covid', but it might be too late.
		
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There is a graph on admissions split 'with Covid' and 'for Covid' separately but can't find it at the moment. The other term I believe used is 'incidental Covid admissions' - if you search for this you might be able to find the split.


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2022)

Surely all Covid cases need to be counted? It gives a more accurate R number and aids with planning.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			It's been readily reported over the last few weeks that a lot (30-40%) of Covid admissions are people that went in with another ailment and were then tested positive for Covid. They weren't there for Covid, didn't need treatment for Covid however are included within the hospital admissions as a Covid number.
		
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It has been reported that a minority of patients tested positive in hospital and that wasn't the primary reason for their admission. I did not see data saying that none of them then needed treatment for Covid. I doubt that is true for all of them. For that observation to have any real value, though, we would need to see data that the proportion of "incidental Covid" has risen significantly.


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## road2ruin (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not doubting that that's happening. I'm simply challenging the veracity of the claimed numbers!
It's easy for someone with an 'alternative narrative' to simply invent numbers to support their story!
I'd like to see those cases listed separately from 'because of Covid', but it might be too late.
		
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The article included an interview with Chris Hopson (chief executive of NHS Providers) who was talking about being careful about looking at hospital admissions alone, I can't find the exact numbers but it was around the 30% mark of all admissions where not for Covid but with.


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## drdel (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			If folk need to be in hospital, that, to me, takes priority over 'being bold'!
To me, the 'balance' (actually, 'priority') has to be limiting excess deaths #1; protecting the NHS (well, hospitals) #2; economy #3. My reasoning is that #1 is an absolute must, #2 can be managed - and is essential for #1 and #3 economy will recover in due course.
I can't believe anyone is considering different priorities, though planning for when they can is acceptable - and expected.
		
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I tend to agree but your criteria aren't mutually exclusive which complicates a national policy. Poor economic activity is connected with poor health : the time lag being somewhat variable.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

D-S said:



			There is a graph on admissions split 'with Covid' and 'for Covid' separately but can't find it at the moment. The other term I believe used is 'incidental Covid admissions' - if you search for this you might be able to find the split.
		
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Yeah, I think I found that in the doc set I quoted for another reason earlier in the thread.
Depending on an assumption (not been able to check yet, but will) that 'Total Beds' is normal ward plus ICU beds, the incidental count seems quite small (about 200 out of 9.5k), so nowhere near the 30-40%, at least for the day I checked. More like 3-4%! But I will try to confirm when I've dug further.
Edit. Given percentages quoted elsewhere, 25-30% seems to be the accepted value.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The article included an interview with Chris Hopson (chief executive of NHS Providers) who was talking about being careful about looking at hospital admissions alone, I can't find the exact numbers but it was around the 30% mark of all admissions where not for Covid but with.
		
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There were reports of a 33% rate of incidental Covid, which was higher than in early December. But in early December, there were a lot fewer patients in hospital with or because of Covid, so there are two separate factors changing. I think that we could see that number change further as the demographics of Omicron cases change, with more older and middle aged people getting it.

I think there is too much inference being applied to this issue.

Edit: Graphic from the Daily Wail. I am not seeing an onbbvious separation of the two lines. I suspect it changes a bit with the rate of transmission, but not seeing a dramatic effect.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

drdel said:



			I tend to agree but your criteria aren't mutually exclusive which complicates a national policy. Poor economic activity is connected with poor health : the time lag being somewhat variable.
		
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Agreed. But the word I used was 'Priority', not the phrase 'forsaking everything else'!


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## drdel (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			There were reports of a 33% rate of incidental Covid, which was higher than in early December. But in early December, there were a lot fewer patients in hospital with or because of Covid, so there are two separate factors changing. I think that we could see that number change further as the demographics of Omicron cases change, with more older and middle aged people getting it.

I think there is too much inference being applied to this issue.
		
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And I suspect if you gathered a bunch of people at random you'd probably hit the 30% prevelance : especially if you excluded the vaccinated.


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

drdel said:



			And I suspect if you gathered a bunch of people at random you'd probably hit the 30% prevelance : especially if you excluded the vaccinated.
		
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Indeed. Just added a graphic to my post which shows the trend.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 6, 2022)

The trend in cases is undoubtedly upwards, but how many?
Reported LFT tests and confirmed PCR tests give figures, but how many LFT ‘s are going unreported, with people just isolating or not isolating at all? 

Now with the requirement to follow up a positive LFT with a PCR has been dropped for asymptomatic folk, how can they be sure the numbers are accurate?


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			The trend in cases is undoubtedly upwards, but how many?
Reported LFT tests and confirmed PCR tests give figures, but how many LFT ‘s are going unreported, with people just isolating or not isolating at all?

Now with the requirement to follow up a positive LFT with a PCR has been dropped for asymptomatic folk, how can they be sure the numbers are accurate?
		
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They can't, but they weren't really all that informative before either. Tests numbers are usually only useful when you understand the population tested - symptomatic, contacts of the symptomatic or random people undergoing routine testing. If you change the population being tested, say add in an occupational group of routine testing, the numbers lose meaning. Also, if the test positive rate is changing in a relatively stable testing group, that suggests the true rate is rising faster than the test positive rate. And if you run out of tests, they lose every more.


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## bobmac (Jan 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yet still a good number who I have spoken with and who would attend my event on the 22nd are OK for it to go ahead…saying we have to get back to normal at some point (as I agree that we must - whatever that normal might be), and so *I worry that I am over-reacting*.
		
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How on earth can you over-react to a contagious air borne global virus that has killed the same number of people living in Scotland


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## DanFST (Jan 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How on earth can you over-react to a contagious air borne global virus that has killed the same number of people living in Scotland
		
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Because we have invested billions to study the disease and now have vaccines? Statistically you are *WAY* more likely to die from something else as covid makes up less then 5% of deaths per day.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yet still a good number who I have spoken with and who would attend my event on the 22nd are OK for it to go ahead…saying we have to get back to normal at some point (as I agree that we must - whatever that normal might be), *and so I worry that I am over-reacting*.
		
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Don't! You aren't!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How on earth can you over-react to a contagious air borne global virus that has killed the same number of people living in Scotland
		
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Good point well made sir. People need to be pragmatic and while it would be nice to get back to "normal" until things improve, especially with infection rates for Omicrom then the risk of large infections vs a nice night out is a no brainer


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Because we have invested billions to study the disease and now have vaccines? Statistically you are *WAY* more likely to die from something else *as covid makes up less then 5% of deaths per day*.
		
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No reason to risk adding to the 1300+ daily deaths though!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I think that you are in an a very difficult position. There are, no doubt, many people who feel that they need to get on with things and would go to your event but they are not the ones who have to carry the burden if there is a serious outbreak or serious illness. To attend is conscience free, to organise is not.
		
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The truth is any decision to go ahead with the event with or without my support is not actually mine - though my absence will make much less of a Burns event.  Now that might not matter, and as a dinner dance it can easily go ahead…

The feedback I am getting this afternoon suggests that the vast majority want it to go ahead…maybe I’ll take the approach that I limit my exposure in the evening to the Burns bit in the middle.  Now that’s about 30mins of the whole…so in fact equivalent to me going to the supermarket - and with a seated and pretty passive ‘audience’ maybe that will be an acceptable level of risk.

Bloody difficult making common sense decisions…when my CS might not align with that of others. One minute my CS says this, and next it says that.  Damn you covid…


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## Ethan (Jan 6, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Because we have invested billions to study the disease and now have vaccines? Statistically you are *WAY* more likely to die from something else as covid makes up less then 5% of deaths per day.
		
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Not all those causes of death are equally preventable, though. 

And it isn’t just about deaths. Gonorrhoea doesn’t kill many people, but you’d probably prefer not to get it.


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## D-S (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			No reason to risk adding to the 13000+ daily deaths though!
		
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Just for some context, global daily population growth is over 200,000.
https://www.theworldcounts.com/chal...-the-planet/world-population-clock-live/story


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## DanFST (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Not all those causes of death are equally preventable, though.

And it isn’t just about deaths. Gonorrhoea doesn’t kill many people, but you’d probably prefer not to get it.
		
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Totally true, tho I wonder how much lifestyle and diet accounts for heart disease deaths (which I think is the second biggest killer? But you'll know more than me!) And i'd much rather not have Gonorrhoea! But I can wear a raincoat when canoodling. That's an acceptable and reasonable sacrifice to minimise risk to myself. Living in London there was absolutely no way I couldn't be infected with covid after the horse bolted in Feb/March. 

With the investment in vaccines, Omicron is looking like a cold for 99.9% (made up number, but sure it's something similar) of people. With retail footfall down 86% compared to the 2019 in the week leading up to Christmas, is it worth it?


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

D-S said:



			Just for some context, global daily population growth is over 200,000.
https://www.theworldcounts.com/chal...-the-planet/world-population-clock-live/story

Click to expand...

99% irrelevant to this discussion.!


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Not all those causes of death are equally preventable, though.

And it isn’t just about deaths. Gonorrhoea doesn’t kill many people, but you’d probably prefer not to get it.
		
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Badge of honour clap is, try something else! 🤣


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## D-S (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			99% irrelevant to this discussion.!
		
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I obviously disagree, if a figure referring to the whole world of just under 5 million deaths a year (13,000 per day) is mentioned I think it useful to know as well that Global population growth is over 80 million per year. You may only find this 1% relevant, that is your prerogative, I however find it gives context.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

D-S said:



			I obviously disagree, if a figure referring to the whole world of just under 5 million deaths a year (13,000 per day) is mentioned I think it useful to know as well that Global population growth is over 80 million per year. You may only find this 1% relevant, that is your prerogative, I however find it gives context.
		
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Sorry, let's restart! Can't remember where I got 13000/day from, but it's not correct. 1400/day for UK is closer! And that's why I found your 'whole world' comment peculiar/irrelevant.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The truth is any decision to go ahead with the event with or without my support is not actually mine - though my absence will make much less of a Burns event.  Now that might not matter, and as a dinner dance it can easily go ahead…

The feedback I am getting this afternoon suggests that the vast majority want it to go ahead…maybe I’ll take the approach that I limit my exposure in the evening to the Burns bit in the middle.  Now that’s about 30mins of the whole…so in fact equivalent to me going to the supermarket - and with a seated and pretty passive ‘audience’ maybe that will be an acceptable level of risk.

Bloody difficult making common sense decisions…when my CS might not align with that of others. One minute my CS says this, and next it says that.  Damn you covid…
		
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That's 30 minutes in an enclosed venue full of expelled air from all who have been in it for hours. Laughing , talking animatedly, etc. Not the same as a supermarket.
You are not indispensable 😀. My view? -- be safe.


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## D-S (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Sorry, let's restart! Can't remember where I got 13000/day from, but it's not correct. 1400/day for UK is closer! And that's why I found your 'whole world' comment peculiar/irrelevant.
		
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I assumed your 13,000 per day was a global number, sorry.
If the pandemic has been going on for about 22 months or 670 days and UK COVID deaths over this period are somewhere over 140k then average daily deaths are over 210. That is a higher figure than I would of guessed. It goes to show how hard this thing hit especially in 2020.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

D-S said:



			I assumed your 13,000 per day was a global number, sorry.
...
		
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Yeah, figured that. My fault!


D-S said:



			...
If the pandemic has been going on for about 22 months or 670 days and UK COVID deaths over this period are somewhere over 140k then average daily deaths are over 210. That is a higher figure than I would of guessed. It goes to show how hard this thing hit especially in 2020.
		
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Yep, 2 big humps for several months. See 'Daily Deaths' for this chart https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ 2021 was the bad one, even with vax. 2020 was scarier as vax was scarce and infrastructure was still being set up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			That's 30 minutes in an enclosed venue full of expelled air from all who have been in it for hours. Laughing , talking animatedly, etc. Not the same as a supermarket.
You are not indispensable 😀. My view? -- be safe.
		
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I take your point, obviously I do, though I’ll add that all will have been seated having dinner for all the period before I would return to do my bit.  In fact our clubhouse on a Saturday morning before the rollout goes out, and later on in the afternoon as groups come in is probably closer to what you describe as the risk.  I also note that I am not too worried about my own health…my concern is picking up the virus and passing it to my BiL up north either directly or via my Mrs.


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## Pants (Jan 6, 2022)

Cemetaries are filled with people who thought that they were indespensible.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2022)

Surely one of the balancing questions to be asked now is how many people are dying because their treatment is on hold, tests not carried out etc. If we obsess too far in one direction are we not missing huge problems elsewhere?

I don't know the answer to this but I hope someone, somewhere is in a meeting asking this question on a regular basis. There will be a tipping point, we don't want to miss it.


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## IainP (Jan 7, 2022)

China with a different approach...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59871325


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2022)

Got 'Boosted' 3 hours ago, no ill effects yet (got J&J this time) £6 per jag for each of us so it's cheaper than the 1st/2nd vaccine were


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 7, 2022)

Over 700 positive cases at work in the last week. 1st shift back since new years eve and can't move in the corridor outside our control room for people having informal meetings. Thank god all these day workers are off the weekend and back to a couple of dozen in the building.....


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2022)

Well, after 3x LFT’s in 4 days I’m still negative. The sore throat has almost gone but the hacking, wet cough and headache are still very much in evidence. Just a nasty cold.

Shan’t be going out though. The evil eye you get from people when you cough could kill at 20 yards.


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## Neilds (Jan 7, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Well, after 3x LFT’s in 4 days I’m still negative. The sore throat has almost gone but the hacking, wet cough and headache are still very much in evidence. Just a nasty cold.

Shan’t be going out though. The evil eye you get from people when you cough could kill at 20 yards.
		
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I had Covid at the beginning of Dec, bad flu like symptoms for a week that floored me then recovered fairly quickly - except for the cough!  Only just got rid of it and I was really conscious about trying not to cough in public in case I got run out of town!  Worse time was whilst waiting outside a Welsh pub with a large bouncer whilst they checked if any tables were free inside.  Was really trying hard not to cough in case we were stopped going in.  Manged to stifle it behind the mask until we got in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2022)

Need LFTs.  None available in local pharmacies and when I go onto the NHS website none are available for sending to either my home address or my MiLs address where my wife is at the moment.  

_Sorry there are no home delivery slots left for these tests right now._

What the hell does that mean…don’t they come by post…and what are we supposed to do?  Well what I will have to do is try and scrounge some off my neighbours.


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## GB72 (Jan 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Need LFTs.  None available in local pharmacies and when I go onto the NHS website none are available for sending to either my home address or my MiLs address where my wife is at the moment.  What are we supposed to do?
		
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Keep trying. My mum could not get any yesterday morning but could order at lunchtime. I could not get any on Tuesday night but ordered easily Wednesday morning. They are coming in stock on line daily and it is just timing.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Need LFTs.  None available in local pharmacies and when I go onto the NHS website none are available for sending to either my home address or my MiLs address where my wife is at the moment. 

_Sorry there are no home delivery slots left for these tests right now._

What the hell does that mean…don’t they come by post…and what are we supposed to do?  Well what I will have to do is try and scrounge some off my neighbours.
		
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I must admit I found it disappointing reading, early in the pandemic, of the shortage of masks. No problem here in Spain. And now the shortage of test kits. No problem here in Spain.

Something seriously wrong, and …. in a brewery.


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## DanFST (Jan 7, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I must admit I found it disappointing reading, early in the pandemic, of the shortage of masks. No problem here in Spain. And now the shortage of test kits. No problem here in Spain.

Something seriously wrong, and …. in a brewery.
		
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How about toilet roll?

As much as I enjoy piling on you know who, I'm not many sure other nations have such a high percentage of selfish, stupid, ignorant inhabitants.


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## road2ruin (Jan 7, 2022)

DanFST said:



			How about toilet roll?

As much as I enjoy piling on you know who, I'm not many sure other nations have such a high percentage of selfish, stupid, ignorant inhabitants.
		
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To be fair, whilst agree about toilet roll (and pasta) I'm not sure the general public can be blamed for this shortage, this lies squarely at the feet of those in power. We've been told to test, test, test plus we've now got a away out of isolation earlier by.....testing!! There really should have been sufficient supplies as they uptick in demand by everyone (bar the usual selfish few) was always going to happen.


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## davidy233 (Jan 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Need LFTs.  None available in local pharmacies and when I go onto the NHS website none are available for sending to either my home address or my MiLs address where my wife is at the moment. 

_Sorry there are no home delivery slots left for these tests right now._

What the hell does that mean…don’t they come by post…and what are we supposed to do?  Well what I will have to do is try and scrounge some off my neighbours.
		
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Never had any problem ordering them (just ordered some) - is Scotland different to down south for availability?


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## D-S (Jan 7, 2022)

Some good (or not so dreadful) news in the stats today -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479491583666003973Also patients in England on ventilators now at lowest level since 18th October.


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## Beezerk (Jan 7, 2022)

PCR results are back already...negative 
This really is a weird virus, back in July I caught it and was minging with cold, the missus was negative.
This time the missus has a bad cold and has tested positive but I'm fine


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## drdel (Jan 7, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			Never had any problem ordering them (just ordered some) - is Scotland different to down south for availability?
		
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Never had any problem here in Beds & Bucks.


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## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2022)

drdel said:



			Never had any problem here in Beds & Bucks.
		
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Been travelling around the chemists trying for the last week, finally got an order in on line. Need them as I interview vets and volunteer  at the vac centre


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## Foxholer (Jan 7, 2022)

D-S said:



			Some good (or not so dreadful) news in the stats today -

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1479491583666003973Also patients in England on ventilators now at lowest level since 18th October.
		
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Definitely 'not so dreadful' as opposed to 'good'!
Patients on ventilators doesn't seem a paticularly good stat to 'watch'. While it has been reducing gradually for the couple of months the daily reduction has been nowhere near the daily death count (almost all of whom would likely have been occupants of ventilated beds). That would indicate that while Omicron is not as 'dangerous' as previous variants, it's sufficiently dangerous to cause an almost equal number of 'ventilation reqd' cases. The alternative is that some 'normal ward' cases are moved to ventilated beds as they become available, which renders the stat to being 'a bit dodgy'!
Likewise, and more obviously less to cheer about, the post states 'Clear signs now of a* rapid slowdown in admissions growth* across England'. Note the word 'growth'! Admissions are still increasing, just increasingly less slowly! A Kiwi PM (Sir Rob Muldoon) once tried to convince the NZ public that 'the rate of increase in inflation' was a good thing! He was laughed at/abused by all and sundry and lost the next election!


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## chellie (Jan 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Need LFTs.  None available in local pharmacies and when I go onto the NHS website none are available for sending to either my home address or my MiLs address where my wife is at the moment.  

_Sorry there are no home delivery slots left for these tests right now._

What the hell does that mean…don’t they come by post…and what are we supposed to do?  Well what I will have to do is try and scrounge some off my neighbours.
		
Click to expand...

I've said before you just have to keep trying to order online!! They keep releasing stock gradually. You can order daily.


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## ExRabbit (Jan 7, 2022)

I managed to order a LFTpack online on the 20th December - had the order confirmation, but still no sign of it!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2022)

drdel said:



			Never had any problem here in Beds & Bucks.
		
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Maybe there is a higher demand in Surrey/Hants borders as incidence of infection is high in the area.  Certainly the I was unable to place an order - I got the ‘…no delivery slots available‘ message given in previous post.  Maybe the system in England works different to that in Scotland.

As it happens was in local Sainsburys a short while ago and they had just got some in…so recent that their No LFTs sign was still in place…and I had a collect code.  So sorted.  Will see if I can get another pack for my wife for up north,


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 7, 2022)

Bracknell infection rates - allegedly higher than over 20 London boroughs

https://www.bracknellnews.co.uk/new...rkshire-infection-rates-way-national-average/


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## Old Skier (Jan 7, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe there is a higher demand in Surrey/Hants borders as incidence of infection is high in the area.  Certainly the I was unable to place an order - I got the ‘…no delivery slots available‘ message given in previous post.  Maybe the system in England works different to that in Scotland.

As it happens was in local Sainsburys a short while ago and they had just got some in…so recent that their No LFTs sign was still in place…and I had a collect code.  So sorted.  Will see if I can get another pack for my wife for up north,
		
Click to expand...

Don’t forget, if your ordering for others you are supposed to indicate it when you order.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 7, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I must admit I found it disappointing reading, early in the pandemic, of the shortage of masks. No problem here in Spain. And now the *shortage of test kits. No problem here in Spain.*

Something seriously wrong, and …. in a brewery.
		
Click to expand...

Friend of ours who lives in Malaga says you have to pay for them, is this true? If so I can see why you have no problem in getting them. Over here anything for nothing people get greedy.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Friend of ours who lives in Malaga says you have to pay for them, is this true? If so I can see why you have no problem in getting them. Over here anything for nothing people get greedy.
		
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The town hall give so many free ones out every now and then, and the Spanish govt have fixed the price that independent retailers can sell them at at 0.65€, unless you want the blingy fashion accessory type.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 7, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			The town hall give so many free ones out every now and then, and the Spanish govt have fixed the price that independent retailers can sell them at at 0.65€, unless you want the blingy fashion accessory type.
		
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Sorry I meant the LFTs not the masks.


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## Hobbit (Jan 7, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Sorry I meant the LFTs not the masks.
		
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LFT’s are €5.45, or €5.95


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## Fade and Die (Jan 7, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			LFT’s are €5.45, or €5.95
		
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That’s why you have no shortage. I wonder how many tests per 1000 people is being carried out in the U.K. compared with elsewhere in Europe?
Only info I could find online was from sept 2020.


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## Billysboots (Jan 7, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Friend of ours who lives in Malaga says you have to pay for them, is this true? If so I can see why you have no problem in getting them. *Over here anything for nothing people get greedy.*

Click to expand...

I’ve always said that if anything is going free there will always be someone who wants two.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 7, 2022)

We have had no issues getting LFT online.  They may be out of stock at 10am but at 10.10 am they could be back in. A tad of patience and all is fine 

My wife orders them regularly as she needs to test to see her mum in her care home. It's been the same, good, for a fair while now.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 7, 2022)

We have had staff off (lots) who need a LFT to come back to work and many in Reading and Slough struggling to get tests


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## 4LEX (Jan 7, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Totally true, tho I wonder how much lifestyle and diet accounts for heart disease deaths (which I think is the second biggest killer? But you'll know more than me!) And i'd much rather not have Gonorrhoea! But I can wear a raincoat when canoodling. That's an acceptable and reasonable sacrifice to minimise risk to myself. Living in London there was absolutely no way I couldn't be infected with covid after the horse bolted in Feb/March.

With the investment in vaccines, Omicron is looking like a cold for 99.9% (made up number, but sure it's something similar) of people. With retail footfall down 86% compared to the 2019 in the week leading up to Christmas, is it worth it?
		
Click to expand...

Think yourself lucky you don't reside in China....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59871325


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## DanFST (Jan 7, 2022)

4LEX said:



			Think yourself lucky you don't reside in China....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59871325

Click to expand...

I'm glad I have absolutely no contact with that dystopian, awful government anymore.


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## DanFST (Jan 7, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bracknell infection rates - allegedly higher than over 20 London boroughs

https://www.bracknellnews.co.uk/new...rkshire-infection-rates-way-national-average/

Click to expand...


Makes sense, London was always ahead, there are very few hosts available.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 8, 2022)

Day 6 today and just tested negative, so if it is the same tomorrow, then I am released from isolation 

Huzzar 👍


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2022)

I have mentioned subclinical inflammatory effects of Covid - damage done without any symptoms or signs at the time. More evidence is emerging on this, and one example is childhood Type 1 Diabetes. 

Covid causes systemic (whole body) effects, and can damage organs such as the kidney, liver, heart, brain, and in this case, the pancreas. This will then result in premature organ failure causing in this case, Type 1 diabetes, but could also result in renal failure, liver failure and so on. Diabetes tends to present early, the others take longer to present, so I am concerned we will see an explosion in people needing renal replacement (dialysis or transplant) or liver transplants in the next few years. 

Even with so-called "milder" infections, serious damage can still be done. This virus is still a long way from becoming another version of the common cold, and you really should avoid getting it if you can.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I have mentioned subclinical inflammatory effects of Covid - damage done without any symptoms or signs at the time. More evidence is emerging on this, and one example is childhood Type 1 Diabetes.

Covid causes systemic (whole body) effects, and can damage organs such as the kidney, liver, heart, brain, and in this case, the pancreas. This will then result in premature organ failure *causing in this case, Type 1 diabetes,* but could also result in renal failure, liver failure and so on.* Diabetes tends to present early,* the others take longer to present, so I am concerned we will see an explosion in people needing renal replacement (dialysis or transplant) or liver transplants in the next few years.

Even with so-called "milder" infections, serious damage can still be done. This virus is still a long way from becoming another version of the common cold, and you really should avoid getting it if you can.
		
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What sort of signs should people be looking out for if they've got kids who have had Covid?


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## chellie (Jan 8, 2022)

It's also causing it in adults.


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			What sort of signs should people be looking out for if they've got kids who have had Covid?
		
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It is still fairly uncommon, so I wouldn't start monitoring the kids, but prominent symptoms of Type 1 DM in kids often include marked thirst and passing a lot of water.


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## D-S (Jan 8, 2022)

This is the bit of this crisis that staggers me, no one is talking about increasing NHS capacity either in the short, medium or long term. Oor numbers of beds and doctors and nurses per head of population are worse than many like nations and our spending per capita on healthcare is way below where it should be as one of the leading developed nations.
This is a terrible pandemic but we all know it could be a lot worse and but we already have an overwhelmed health service, which is not a surprise as it cannot cope with seasonal flu which we know comes every year. Shouldn’t the long term updating of our health system be front and centre in political debate?
Here is an article highlighting the point which doesn’t seem to have even been discussed in the past two years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1256B/production/_121251157_optimised-nhs_staff-nc.png


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 8, 2022)

D-S said:



			This is the bit of this crisis that staggers me, no one is talking about increasing NHS capacity either in the short, medium or long term. Oor numbers of beds and doctors and nurses per head of population are worse than many like nations and our spending per capita on healthcare is way below where it should be as one of the leading developed nations.
This is a terrible pandemic but we all know it could be a lot worse and but we already have an overwhelmed health service, which is not a surprise as it cannot cope with seasonal flu which we know comes every year. Shouldn’t the long term updating of our health system be front and centre in political debate?
Here is an article highlighting the point which doesn’t seem to have even been discussed in the past two years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1256B/production/_121251157_optimised-nhs_staff-nc.png

Click to expand...

True, but it just isn't  money.  Ethan highlighted a case recently where bureaucracy was unbelievable about how someone could/would be referred from one dept to another, even though it could be done just  by walking down the corridor from one to the other with a referring note.
However, this is not an argument against more investment in the NHS, the truth is that both matters need dealing with.
But, calls for more money are met - opposed- by calls for more efficiency , usually from a political ideology base
And vice versa.
One day sense may prevail. And the best use of a correct level of money may be implemented. More so by input from Drs than managers.


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## D-S (Jan 8, 2022)

In 2019 we were 17th in per capita healthcare spend, if we want to have a more capable system it is a given that we will have to spend more. We should be doing that and increasing efficiency at the same time.
I pay for Private health insurance for my wife and I after a lifetime of cover from employers. I would be more than happy to pay this amount and more into the NHS instead for a better service. Annoyingly insurance companies are taking a large chunk of my spend which could be better spent on actual services. 
If we want a decent (or even adequate service), we are going to have to pay more so let’s bite the bullet. We all know that our health is the most important thing so let’s put it front and centre. Surely not a bad thing in a manifesto?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 8, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			True, but it just isn't  money.  Ethan highlighted a case recently where bureaucracy was unbelievable about how someone could/would be referred from one dept to another, even though it could be done just  by walking down the corridor from one to the other with a referring note.
However, this is not an argument against more investment in the NHS, the truth is that both matters need dealing with.
But, calls for more money are met - opposed- by calls for more efficiency , usually from a political ideology base
And vice versa.
One day sense may prevail. And the best use of a correct level of money may be implemented. More so by input from Drs than managers.
		
Click to expand...

A lot of the bureaucracy will be down to the NHS internal market…and made especially necessary and ever more  required when elements of service provision are privatised.  And as more elements are privatised the more required does become the bureaucracy…any more down that path I doubt we can discuss.


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## D-S (Jan 8, 2022)

The ‘how’ we spend more money is obviously a political question but the fact that we are going to have to and how we get the money should at least be step 1 but at the moment it doesn't seem even to be on the agenda - why? Start training recruiting more staff, planning for more infrastructure and let the mechanics of delivery service follow.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 8, 2022)

Called in this morning to discuss absence rates. Struggling to complete a rota for the next few days with so many especially our junior doctors off at the moment. Trying to get a safe skill mix proving a problem and trying to find suitable agency staff becoming harder as demand increases


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## D-S (Jan 8, 2022)

Practising doctors per 1000 people UK - 3, France - 3.4, Italy - 4, Germany - 4.5.


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## road2ruin (Jan 8, 2022)

D-S said:



			This is the bit of this crisis that staggers me, no one is talking about increasing NHS capacity either in the short, medium or long term. Oor numbers of beds and doctors and nurses per head of population are worse than many like nations and our spending per capita on healthcare is way below where it should be as one of the leading developed nations.
This is a terrible pandemic but we all know it could be a lot worse and but we already have an overwhelmed health service, which is not a surprise as it cannot cope with seasonal flu which we know comes every year. Shouldn’t the long term updating of our health system be front and centre in political debate?
Here is an article highlighting the point which doesn’t seem to have even been discussed in the past two years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59909860

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1256B/production/_121251157_optimised-nhs_staff-nc.png

Click to expand...

The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately many medics (not all) push back against external experts. I frequently came across the " ... you're not medially qualified.." when working within the sector; despite having considerable international expertise.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 8, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.
		
Click to expand...

Difficult. Our site is very old and in places has a lot of problems with infrastructure so we are spending loads on trying to keep areas going and open to deliver care. We need a new hospital to deal with the increased load on our services as Reading and the surrounding areas get bigger. Is that waste? We have spent millions on a new electronic patient records system to get rid of paper and make details available to everyone? Way over budget but waste?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 8, 2022)

D-S said:



			Practising doctors per 1000 people UK - 3, France - 3.4, Italy - 4, Germany - 4.5.
		
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The bizarre bit there is that the govt, sort of, control the number of university entrants for medicine each year. Both of my kids have friends who applied for medicine. None had less than A stars across the board but not all could get in. The places are limited but if we have a shortage of staff, people wanting to qualify, academically capable to at least start the course, but unable to train due to restrictions of numbers then where is the sense?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with the sentiment, but how long would the auditors get and how much would they cost?

Been a lot of money wasted on “experts” in recent times.


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## RichA (Jan 8, 2022)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately many medics (not all) push back against external experts. I frequently came across the " ... you're not medially qualified.." when working within the sector; despite having considerable international expertise.
		
Click to expand...

Along with world class modesty and humility.


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## Ethan (Jan 8, 2022)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately many medics (not all) push back against external experts. I frequently came across the " ... you're not medially qualified.." when working within the sector; despite having considerable international expertise.
		
Click to expand...

International expertise in what, though? It is a massive generalisation to say that medics push back against external experts. I would think it depends a lot on the expert and whether their expert view is applicable to a situation they may not have dealt with before. 

The NHS has seen millions spunked away on reports by Big 4 firms on restructuring and so on, that simply regurgitate generic methods that the management have already thought of but lack the courage to propose, so PWC or whoever gets paid a ton to act as a forum of opposition and allows the locals to mildly reduce the proposals and look like the good guys. 

The big money pit in the NHS is the internal market which has caused an explosion in people and processes to measure and count activity, generate, monitor and sometimes game contracts, and in doing so they significantly increase the admin time of doctors (my wife reckons it has gone from 1 hour admin for every hour clinical 20 years ago, to 3:1 now) and waste clinical time with unnecessary meetings as well as increase the complexity of dealing with referrals, as well as increase the number of interfaces and the fraction that goes with it.


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## D-S (Jan 8, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The NHS definitely needs better funding however should not see a penny until an independent firm of accountants has been through it with a fine tooth comb. The NHS gets an awful lot of money as it is and whilst the front line staff do an amazing job there is a lot we could lose from the back end. Once they've been audited and the areas of waste identified and sorted then we can be confident that further money will not be wasted.
		
Click to expand...

I would agree if the NHS currently cost significantly more than other developed nations but as long as we have the they already get ‘an awful lot of money’ so they shouldn’t get any more attitude, despite the fact that the ‘awful lot of money’ is far less than comparable nations we will always lag behind. We need to realise that we can’t save our way to excellence, ultimately we will have to pay for it. At least recognise this and get in on the agenda.


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## road2ruin (Jan 8, 2022)

D-S said:



			I would agree if the NHS currently cost significantly more than other developed nations but as long as we have the they already get ‘an awful lot of money’ so they shouldn’t get any more attitude, despite the fact that the ‘awful lot of money’ is far less than comparable nations we will always lag behind. We need to realise that we can’t save our way to excellence, ultimately we will have to pay for it. At least recognise this and get in on the agenda.
		
Click to expand...

It’s all relative, I’m not really fused how comparable we other to other nations whilst the NHS is able to get away with wasting as much as they do. I have friends who work in the NHS and they’re in the back offices, hiding away making a resent wage whilst no one really knows what they do. They also watch as redundancies are made and within a month or two the same people are brought back in on agency wages as they suddenly don’t have the staff to cover the positions. It’s ridiculous what a black hole the NHS budgets are and whilst I don’t begrudge paying for it there needs to be more accountability.


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## road2ruin (Jan 8, 2022)

According to the Times LFT’s are going to cease to be free and will be a paid for item in the coming months. I guess that’ll lower our case numbers pretty quickly!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 8, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			According to the Times LFT’s are going to cease to be free and will be a paid for item in the coming months. I guess that’ll lower our case numbers pretty quickly! 

Click to expand...

Way to cause a shortage then consider their use by date is 2023.. and you can order a pack every 24 hours...can see people ordering one a day


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2022)

Ethan said:



			International expertise in what, though? It is a massive generalisation to say that medics push back against external experts. I would think it depends a lot on the expert and whether their expert view is applicable to a situation they may not have dealt with before. 

The NHS has seen millions spunked away on reports by Big 4 firms on restructuring and so on, that simply regurgitate generic methods that the management have already thought of but lack the courage to propose, so PWC or whoever gets paid a ton to act as a forum of opposition and allows the locals to mildly reduce the proposals and look like the good guys. 

The big money pit in the NHS is the internal market which has caused an explosion in people and processes to measure and count activity, generate, monitor and sometimes game contracts, and in doing so they significantly increase the admin time of doctors (my wife reckons it has gone from 1 hour admin for every hour clinical 20 years ago, to 3:1 now) and waste clinical time with unnecessary meetings as well as increase the complexity of dealing with referrals, as well as increase the number of interfaces and the fraction that goes with it.
		
Click to expand...

I've heard all this stuff before and know enough to recognise that I'll not change your mind on a public forum.  As to your putdown challenge: the "Expertise" - was enough to be  asked personally by people senior enough to judge. As a self proclaimed 'expert' in your field I'd have expected a more professional reciprocation.  

You instant 'shoot the  messenger' pushback from scant information rather proves the point I was making.

I'm back in my box now.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 9, 2022)

2nd LFT negative , I am a free man
Huzzar 👍


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## Ethan (Jan 9, 2022)

drdel said:



			I've heard all this stuff before and know enough to recognise that I'll not change your mind on a public forum.  As to your putdown challenge: the "Expertise" - was enough to be  asked personally by people senior enough to judge. As a self proclaimed 'expert' in your field I'd have expected a more professional reciprocation. 

You instant 'shoot the  messenger' pushback from scant information rather proves the point I was making.

I'm back in my box now.
		
Click to expand...

OK, keep your hair on. I am not putting you down. You may have mentioned before what your expertise is, but I don't remember. and if your anecdote his to have any value, you need to provide a bit more information. I am not a self-proclaimed expert, but I am happy to give real examples and you can judge if I am qualified to comment or not. I can't do the same with you.  

So late say you are an expert in some sort of business process, and NHS management may think this process is essential for the smooth running of the service, but users and people who have to perform the process may legitimately not agree. This disconnect is very common, and is not a sign of professional intransigence.

It has been pretty common in the NHS for lots of new processes to be introduced. In the old days, a GP would write to a Consultant such as my missus, and refer a patient with a letter giving a summary of the salient issues on the case, she would read the letter and offer an appropriate appointment or referral to another department, say psychology. Then some manager in psychology decided they could gather a lot more information on the types of referrals they got and what happened to them by devising a referral form of several pages with a range of questions. It'll only take 10 minutes to fill in, they decided. Which might be true in early testing when you are just making up stuff to put into the form. But it turns out that when you actually have to go into the systems and find all the information, it takes a lot longer and the system crashes pretty often, losing everything you have done, so it takes much longer and is a PITA. And I have seen examples where the forms are presented and then not even used, when the people on the ground tell you they told management they wouldn't use them anyway. Despite this, the NHS is now full of these "10 minute" tasks, which actually take a lot longer and when you add up all the little tasks, you end up with a lot of time wasted.

So, when the next person comes along with an idea which involves some form-filling or an online portal, people are resistant, and rightly so. No new task is balanced by an old task being removed.


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## drdel (Jan 9, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK, keep your hair on. I am not putting you down. You may have mentioned before what your expertise is, but I don't remember. and if your anecdote his to have any value, you need to provide a bit more information. I am not a self-proclaimed expert, but I am happy to give real examples and you can judge if I am qualified to comment or not. I can't do the same with you.

So late say you are an expert in some sort of business process, and NHS management may think this process is essential for the smooth running of the service, but users and people who have to perform the process may legitimately not agree. This disconnect is very common, and is not a sign of professional intransigence.

It has been pretty common in the NHS for lots of new processes to be introduced. In the old days, a GP would write to a Consultant such as my missus, and refer a patient with a letter giving a summary of the salient issues on the case, she would read the letter and offer an appropriate appointment or referral to another department, say psychology. Then some manager in psychology decided they could gather a lot more information on the types of referrals they got and what happened to them by devising a referral form of several pages with a range of questions. It'll only take 10 minutes to fill in, they decided. Which might be true in early testing when you are just making up stuff to put into the form. But it turns out that when you actually have to go into the systems and find all the information, it takes a lot longer and the system crashes pretty often, losing everything you have done, so it takes much longer and is a PITA. And I have seen examples where the forms are presented and then not even used, when the people on the ground tell you they told management they wouldn't use them anyway. Despite this, the NHS is now full of these "10 minute" tasks, which actually take a lot longer and when you add up all the little tasks, you end up with a lot of time wasted.

So, when the next person comes along with an idea which involves some form-filling or an online portal, people are resistant, and rightly so. No new task is balanced by an old task being removed.
		
Click to expand...

Right back at you.."OK, keep your hair on."
As I said "I've heard all this stuff before and know enough to recognise that I'll not change your mind on a public forum. "


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## drdel (Jan 9, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			2nd LFT negative , I am a free man
Huzzar 👍
		
Click to expand...

Just got back from a game; weather is great around here and you should sneak out for a round. It would do you good.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2022)

Took another LF test as now been isolating for a week, still a strong positive. Wife was negative again.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 9, 2022)

drdel said:



			Just got back from a game; weather is great around here and you should sneak out for a round. It would do you good.
		
Click to expand...

I did , an honourable draw with himself with 33 each. jeez it was good to be out again 👍


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## Old Skier (Jan 9, 2022)




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## Tashyboy (Jan 9, 2022)

Since I have had the second bout of COVID , occasionally my eyes feel really heavy. It just comes on without any warning. It’s weird.just googled it and it is a symptom/ after effect of COVID 🥸


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 9, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			According to the Times LFT’s are going to cease to be free and will be a paid for item in the coming months. I guess that’ll lower our case numbers pretty quickly! 

Click to expand...

Recipe for disaster surely. Those at the lower end of the income scale aren't going to bother so how are they going to know if they are positive/negative and how will the government get any sort of handle on numbers. People not bothering to test as they have to pay surely means they will be out and about when they shouldn't be and passing the virus on


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## Old Skier (Jan 9, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Recipe for disaster surely. Those at the lower end of the income scale aren't going to bother so how are they going to know if they are positive/negative and how will the government get any sort of handle on numbers. People not bothering to test as they have to pay surely means they will be out and about when they shouldn't be and passing the virus on
		
Click to expand...

Wasnt this a headline a few months ago. Slow news week?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 9, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Wasnt this a headline a few months ago. Slow news week?
		
Click to expand...

No idea I was simply replying to post #24483


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## hovis (Jan 9, 2022)

Anyone on here had covid more than once?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 9, 2022)

hovis said:



			Anyone on here had covid more than once?
		
Click to expand...

Several at work have


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## Tashyboy (Jan 9, 2022)

hovis said:



			Anyone on here had covid more than once?
		
Click to expand...

Yup,I believe Delta and Omicron ☹️ Both times brought home by my son through his work as a class one driver. Both times over the last two Christmas periods.

Edit to say,  Missis T as a nurse back in Jan/ Feb 2020 came down with “ something”. I say something because she wrote down all the signs and symptoms she was suffering with. She could not put her finger on it. She was adamant it was not flu. 11 months later she had the exact same symptoms. That’s when we both caught COVID the “ first” time. She is adamant she has had COVID 2 times.


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## adam6177 (Jan 9, 2022)

hovis said:



			Anyone on here had covid more than once?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, both times been little more than a mild irritation.


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## DanFST (Jan 10, 2022)

hovis said:



			Anyone on here had covid more than once?
		
Click to expand...


yep, Just before lockdown I was embraced and was convinced I was going to die. Jabs later, couple of weeks ago sleepy and a slight hangover feeling.


----------



## Billysboots (Jan 10, 2022)

Yes. First time back in April 2020 but no symptoms and identified via an antibody test. And I’ve just tested positive again - this time a sore throat and mild cough so far.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

Don't know, I've never been tested


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## Ethan (Jan 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			Right back at you.."OK, keep your hair on."
As I said "I've heard all this stuff before and know enough to recognise that I'll not change your mind on a public forum. "
		
Click to expand...

OK, so I am expected to accept your blanket dismissal of the willingness of the entire medical profession to listen to what you claim are expertise-based good ideas without any even vague idea of what those ideas were or what expertise supported them. Cool.

My days of keeping my hair on have long since passed.


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK, so I am expected to accept your blanket dismissal of the willingness of (1) *the entire medical profession* to listen to what you claim are expertise-based good ideas without any even vague idea of what those ideas were or what expertise supported them. Cool.

My days of keeping my hair on have long since passed.
		
Click to expand...

(1) See post 24,475 !

This is a public Golf forum and the thread is about the impact on members !
You honestly think I'm going to list the contents of confidential business reports that would potentially allow organisations to be identified just to satisfy your entrenched views.
How absurd.


----------



## RichA (Jan 10, 2022)

... so why would anyone mention their own "considerable international expertise" in the field being discussed on said public golf forum and not expect to be challenged?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2022)

RichA said:



			... so why would anyone mention their own "considerable international expertise" in the field being discussed on said public golf forum and not expect to be challenged?
		
Click to expand...

You could take it at face value? Unless posts are being made that are totally outlandish, don't think they are but it isn't my field, perhaps we should run with it?

Lots of people post of different subjects on different threads and show a level of knowledge. We don't ask for references each time.


----------



## Ethan (Jan 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			(1) See post 24,475 !

This is a public Golf forum and the thread is about the impact on members !
You honestly think I'm going to list the contents of confidential business reports that would potentially allow organisations to be identified just to satisfy your entrenched views.
How absurd.
		
Click to expand...

OK. You posted about the unwillingness of some medics to accept your expertise. Still quite a broad generalisation. 

You say it was because the 'medics' say you are not medically qualified. So the key question is whether the issue is something for which being medically qualified is an important factor. You are unwilling to give any clue what the issue is, although I should have thought there were few cases where it wasn't possible to change elements to allow the basic idea to be illustrated, but if not, nobody can judge whether your assertion is reasonable or not. 

But you throw in an accusation about entrenched views. I would argue that this tiresome debate reflects your entrenched view, that (some) medics don't respect/understand your expertise. Hopefully, they, unlike us, have some idea what that is. I am sure that you considered the possibility that the problem was not their intransigence, but your own delivery.  

I do have one entrenched view, and that is that people need to offer some information to enlighten their point if anybody is to make sense of them, and that is what I try to do, but then I get criticised for that too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

I am done on this one.


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2022)

RichA said:



			... so why would anyone mention their own "considerable international expertise" in the field being discussed on said public golf forum and not expect to be challenged?
		
Click to expand...

Merely suggesting that its an opinion based on being around the block a few times so a bit of fact/evidence. I'm happy to be challenged and debate alternative views: however I draw the line at CV waving demands.


----------



## drdel (Jan 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK. You posted about the unwillingness of some medics to accept your expertise. Still a broad generalisation.

You say it is because they say upon are not medically qualified. So they key question is whether the issue is something for which being medically qualified is an important factor. You are unwilling to give any clue what the issue is, although I should have thought it would be possible to change elements to allow the basic idea to be illustrated, but if not, nobody can judge is your assertion is reasonable or not. 

But you throw in an accusation about entrenched views. I do have one entrenched view, and that is that people need to offer some information to enlighten their point if anybody is to make sense of them, and that is what I try to do, but then I get criticised for that too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
		
Click to expand...

"Dog with bone!". I get that you don't like my opinion and that I won't alter yours. I suggest that before it gets more personal and bore others we let it lie and return the thread to its core?


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## RichA (Jan 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You could take it at face value? Unless posts are being made that are totally outlandish, don't think they are but it isn't my field, perhaps we should run with it?

Lots of people post of different subjects on different threads and show a level of knowledge. We don't ask for references each time.
		
Click to expand...

Claiming a degree of knowledge or work experience, I get. Self-proclaiming oneself as an international expert during an anonymous discussion about hospital management on a golf website, I find a bit comical.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 10, 2022)

RichA said:



			Claiming a degree of knowledge or work experience, I get. Self-proclaiming oneself as an international expert during an anonymous discussion about hospital management on a golf website, I find a bit comical.
		
Click to expand...

One thing you can guarantee on a golf forum is that you'll find an expert on everything... without fail!


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## drdel (Jan 10, 2022)

RichA said:



			Claiming a degree of knowledge or work experience, I get. Self-proclaiming oneself as an international expert during an anonymous discussion about hospital management on a golf website, I find a bit comical.
		
Click to expand...

For goodness sake! I have spoken and been introduced as such at a conferences eg. in the USA, Singapore, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Canada etc and in books, editorial magazines. But let's not let the truth get in the way of a good sniping.

Pilloried for an opinion, I'm out...


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

Has anyone on here who has been triple jabbed been hospitalised with Covid?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Has anyone on here who has been triple jabbed been hospitalised with Covid?
		
Click to expand...

Bob,

Don't know about on here but we have 7 in ICU and 3 are currently fully vaxxed.


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## RichA (Jan 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			For goodness sake! I have spoken and been introduced as such at a conferences eg. in the USA, Singapore, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Denmark, Canada etc and in books, editorial magazines. But let's not let the truth get in the way of a good sniping.

Pilloried for an opinion, I'm out...
		
Click to expand...

For balance, I never pilloried your opinion - just lightly ribbed the self-aggrandisement in its delivery.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Bob,

Don't know about on here but we have 7 in ICU and 3 are currently fully vaxxed.
		
Click to expand...

Are they in ICU because of Covid or some other reason?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Are they in ICU because of Covid or some other reason?
		
Click to expand...

Yes we have 7 covid patients and of those 3 were fully jabbed. We have around 80 across the trust at the moment and latest update I had is the majority are not vaccinated or only had 1 or 2 jabs


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2022)

An interesting step from Ikea. Not sure how they can confirm who has and has not had 3 jabs but it sends out a very clear message.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Has anyone on here who has been triple jabbed been hospitalised with Covid?
		
Click to expand...

According to this article https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-hospitalisations-NOT-booster-data-shows.html
by subtraction...Over 15% of Omicron hospitalisations are 'fully jabbed', including booster.
I suspect patient age and general health influences likelihood of hospitalisation for the fully jabbed. @HomerJSimpson could likely indicate that for those in his 'care'.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			An interesting step from Ikea. Not sure how they can confirm who has and has not had 3 jabs but it sends out a very clear message.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206

Click to expand...

The dates of your jabs and the vaccine administered are under the Your Health section of the NHS app, so it should be easy to check.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			According to this article https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-hospitalisations-NOT-booster-data-shows.html
by subtraction...Over 15% of Omicron hospitalisations are 'fully jabbed', including booster.
I suspect patient age and general health influences likelihood of hospitalisation for the fully jabbed. @HomerJSimpson could likely indicate that for those in his 'care'.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not interested what the Daily Mail says.


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## Italian outcast (Jan 10, 2022)

Although resident in Italy - I have been getting my vaccines in France 
Received a one & done J&J in June 2021
Was called up for a Pfizer booster in November, and had that
Now - I'm being called up for a second booster in Erly Feb (which if you accept that J&J single dose is a valid Primary vaccination series - some don't, including it seems the French) mean I will have had effectively a 4th vaccine in Feb. The lass - who although Italian is resident in France just got her regular booster last week
Cant fault the French on their efforts - and will pre-empt most 'valid certificate' dates for the forseeable future [we are returning there to live in a few months anyway]


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			The dates of your jabs and the vaccine administered are under the Your Health section of the NHS app, so it should be easy to check.
		
Click to expand...

I understand that. Can they force employees to show them? Health workers and care workers I understand for patient reasons but this is about whether someone is entitled to sick pay or not. They must have run this past their employment specialists but even so I am surprised that they can ask for this info from their employees.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I'm not interested what the Daily Mail says.
		
Click to expand...

I'm somewhat surprised at that!  I'm much the same with their 'opinions' but I've found their verifiable facts to be reliable, if 'selective'!


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I understand that. Can they force employees to show them? Health workers and care workers I understand for patient reasons but this is about whether someone is entitled to sick pay or not. They must have run this past their employment specialists but even so I am surprised that they can ask for this info from their employees.
		
Click to expand...

It's sick pay for those having to isolate as a close contact. If someone has to isolate as a close contact of a person that has got Covid then they are by definition unvaccinated. If you are vaccinated you don't have to isolate as a close contact as long as you keep testing negative


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 10, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's sick pay for those having to isolate as a close contact. If someone has to isolate as a close contact of a person that has got Covid then they are by definition unvaccinated. If you are vaccinated you don't have to isolate as a close contact as long as you keep testing negative
		
Click to expand...

I guess that then relies on people being honest about the situation.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm somewhat surprised at that!  I'm much the same with their 'opinions' but I've found their verifiable facts to be reliable, if 'selective'!
		
Click to expand...

I don't care if you find their facts reliable.


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## D-S (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Has anyone on here who has been triple jabbed been hospitalised with Covid?
		
Click to expand...

Here is a good chart re your question

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480562137734987778


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I don't care if you find their facts reliable.
		
Click to expand...

GAF-IND = 'N'


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## Billysboots (Jan 10, 2022)

D-S said:



			Here is a good chart re your question

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480562137734987778

Click to expand...

If that isn’t an incentive for people to get fully vaccinated I don’t know what is.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			GAF-IND = 'N'

Click to expand...

No idea what that means.
I'll try again for the hard of reading.

''Has anyone *ON HERE* who has been triple jabbed been hospitalised with Covid?''


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

D-S said:



			Here is a good chart re your question

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1480562137734987778

Click to expand...

Should inspire older folk to get boosted! Also slightly distorted as only Critical Care cases.
Oh, and apparently OP isn't interested in those not 'on here'.


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## Imurg (Jan 10, 2022)

Grounded until Thursday now.
The Management is going in to have a procedure on Wednesday afternoon and she's just had her pre-op PCR
Isolating until she goes in....shame as they've let trolleys back on the course.....


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## yandabrown (Jan 10, 2022)

Our eldest has just tested positive and is now upstairs isolating, whilst we are all boosted I guess that the sensible thing is to probably skip arranging any golf for next weekend


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## theoneandonly (Jan 10, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Our eldest has just tested positive and is now upstairs isolating, whilst we are all boosted I guess that the sensible thing is to probably skip arranging any golf for next weekend 

Click to expand...

2 of my kids had it , the younger has just tested negative on day 6 . They didn't isolate about the house and for me and Mrs life goes on as normal. Out and about etc.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I understand that. Can they force employees to show them? Health workers and care workers I understand for patient reasons but this is about whether someone is entitled to sick pay or not. They must have run this past their employment specialists but even so I am surprised that they can ask for this info from their employees.
		
Click to expand...

If the employee wants to be off on full sick pay then I'd suggest they need to show it to Ikea; maybe Ikea can't force them, but equally the employee can't force Ikea to pay them.  My employer has created a folder on my personal profile for me to add my vaccination date, which I have done.  I really don't have an issue with them doing that; we are in an absolute storm and I think the responsible thing to do is get vaccinated.



ColchesterFC said:



			It's sick pay for those having to isolate as a close contact. If someone has to isolate as a close contact of a person that has got Covid then they are by definition unvaccinated. If you are vaccinated you don't have to isolate as a close contact as long as you keep testing negative
		
Click to expand...

But presumably if you test positive you'd need to show your vaccination status to get full sick pay?


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## Billysboots (Jan 10, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Our eldest has just tested positive and is now upstairs isolating, whilst we are all boosted I guess that the sensible thing is to probably skip arranging any golf for next weekend 

Click to expand...

Why? You’re under no obligation to self isolate now merely because of a close contact, as you are boosted. If you really wanted to be cautious then maybe do a lateral flow test, or avoid the clubhouse before or after your round, but I would be perfectly happy playing golf in your circumstances.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Oh, and apparently OP isn't interested in those not 'on here'.
		
Click to expand...

The title of the thread is 
_''How is it/has it affected you?''_

My question was an attempt to steer the conversation back to the people on here, to find out how they have coped with hospitalisation. Nothing to do with what Twitter or the Daily Mail thinks.
I stupidly thought it was a closed question that wouldn't start another argument.


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## yandabrown (Jan 10, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Why? You’re under no obligation to self isolate now merely because of a close contact, as you are boosted. If you really wanted to be cautious then maybe do a lateral flow test, or avoid the clubhouse before or after your round, but I would be perfectly happy playing golf in your circumstances.
		
Click to expand...

I know that I am under no obligation but I won't be playing with other people and if I do play a few holes on my own I won't be going in the bar as you suggest. Call me over cautious but it's only 1 week. The rest of us have all tested negative today, long may that continue


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## GreiginFife (Jan 10, 2022)

I'm concerned about a guy that bought a pair of speakers from me. He paid for them the week before Christmas and they were ready to go pretty much there and then. He mailed me on the 26th to say he'd had a positive PCR but wasn't feeling terrible and would collect on the 4th Jan when his isolation was up. Heard nothing and emailed him on the 4th and again yesterday without reply. Hoping that he is ok and that it's not Covid related and it's something else that's kept him incommunicado.


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## Billysboots (Jan 10, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			I know that I am under no obligation but I won't be playing with other people and if I do play a few holes on my own I won't be going in the bar as you suggest. Call me over cautious but it's only 1 week. The rest of us have all tested negative today, long may that continue 

Click to expand...

I admire your sense of caution but, given everything you have said, I’d say get out for a few holes. You are not doing anyone any harm and, if you are exercising caution in other aspects of your normal routine, the fresh air and exercise will do you good.


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## RichA (Jan 10, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			I know that I am under no obligation but I won't be playing with other people and if I do play a few holes on my own I won't be going in the bar as you suggest. Call me over cautious but it's only 1 week. The rest of us have all tested negative today, long may that continue 

Click to expand...

I've been generally cautious, but I'd have no issues playing golf with someone in your position. You just wouldn't be taking a slug of rum from my hip flask on the 10th tee or getting a handshake.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			The title of the thread is
_''How is it/has it affected you?''_

My question was an attempt to steer the conversation back to the people on here, to find out how they have coped with hospitalisation. Nothing to do with what Twitter or the Daily Mail thinks.
I stupidly thought it was a closed question that wouldn't start another argument.  

Click to expand...

Oh the hypocrisy!
Check your own early posts! Nunber 337, 340! A couple of earlier ones get a 'maybe'.
If you are really serios about posts being solely as per the title (good luck with that!) then there are better ways to get the message across!


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## road2ruin (Jan 10, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Our eldest has just tested positive and is now upstairs isolating, whilst we are all boosted I guess that the sensible thing is to probably skip arranging any golf for next weekend 

Click to expand...

The weekend is still quite some time away, if you're really concerned just take an LFT on Friday and Saturday to reassure yourself. Even if you were unwittingly positive, you're outside! Just avoid kissing or hugging anyone you might come across and enjoy your round.


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## bobmac (Jan 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Oh the hypocrisy!
Check your own early posts! Nunber 337, 340! A couple of earlier ones get a 'maybe'.

Click to expand...

You scrolled back over 24,000 posts?

I'm done


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## theoneandonly (Jan 10, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The weekend is still quite some time away, if you're really concerned just take an LFT on Friday and Saturday to reassure yourself. Even if you were unwittingly positive, you're outside! Just avoid kissing or hugging anyone you might come across and enjoy your round.
		
Click to expand...

That's it's, do an lft and carry on. The guys I play with are in the same boat.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You scrolled back over 24,000 posts?

I'm done
		
Click to expand...


In an instant!
It was the scrolling forward that took a little time (30 secs)!


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## AmandaJR (Jan 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It hasn't been forgotten. A positive LFT is very likely to be a true positive, and a true negative is very likely to get a negative test. That leaves a group in between, the true positives that get a negative test (false negatives). *There are very few false positives.*

All tests have to balance the false negatives and positives, you can't have both at a very high level. so LFTs are really designed to confirm negativity where the great majority are expected to be negative (i.e. low population prevalence) because the actual number of false negatives will then be pretty low.

It doesn't work so well when LFTs are used in different risk populations, such as symptomatic patients in whom the risk of being positive is much higher because the number of false negatives is also higher.
		
Click to expand...

Apart from at Anfield


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 10, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			But presumably if you test positive you'd need to show your vaccination status to get full sick pay?
		
Click to expand...

There's a quote in the story that says that unvaccinated co-workers that test positive will get full company sick pay. Looks like it's only the unvaccinated that have to isolate as a close contact that it will affect.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 10, 2022)

RichA said:



			I've been generally cautious, but I'd have no issues playing golf with someone in your position. *You just wouldn't be taking a slug of rum from my hip flask on the 10th tee* or getting a handshake.
		
Click to expand...

I play in a medweek fuddle and a couple of lads offer there hip flaks for a slurp 😳


----------



## Tashyboy (Jan 10, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Apart from at Anfield 

Click to expand...

What I don’t understand is if a player has a positive LFT, why do they not have PCR straight away as per the rest of us. I don’t just mean the Liverpool lads who had a dodgy batch. 😉


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## Baldy Bouncer (Jan 10, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			I play in a medweek fuddle and a couple of lads offer there hip flaks for a slurp 😳
		
Click to expand...


Looking at that sentence I think you've had a few slurps already!


----------



## Ethan (Jan 10, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I admire your sense of caution but, given everything you have said, I’d say get out for a few holes. You are not doing anyone any harm and, if you are exercising caution in other aspects of your normal routine, the fresh air and exercise will do you good.
		
Click to expand...

You are only a contact, and you have tested negative? The risk of transmission for you through an outdoors activity is minimal. I think you should play golf if you fancy a game.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 11, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			What I don’t understand is if a player has a positive LFT, why do they not have PCR straight away as per the rest of us. I don’t just mean the Liverpool lads who had a dodgy batch. 😉
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree. And it's not as if they have to go to an NHS walk through centre and then wait 2 days for the result. With the amount of money in the PL they can surely get the rapid turnaround tests. I flew to Aberdeen for a job just before Xmas and had to get a PCR test close to the airport. I then got a taxi from the test centre into Aberdeen and checked into my hotel. As I was setting up my laptop in my room I had the text saying they'd sent me the result. 55 minutes between taking the test and receiving the result.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Completely agree. And it's not as if they have to go to an NHS walk through centre and then wait 2 days for the result. With the amount of money in the PL they can surely get the rapid turnaround tests. I flew to Aberdeen for a job just before Xmas and had to get a PCR test close to the airport. I then got a taxi from the test centre into Aberdeen and checked into my hotel. As I was setting up my laptop in my room I had the text saying they'd sent me the result. 55 minutes between taking the test and receiving the result.
		
Click to expand...

This was my way of thinking. Don’t get me wrong, I think the rules are that if you are now positive with a LFT you don’t need confirmation with a PCR. But as you say with the money in football. That said, when did they actually have a PCR to see when they were COVID free.


----------



## Lilyhawk (Jan 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Completely agree. And it's not as if they have to go to an NHS walk through centre and then wait 2 days for the result. With the amount of money in the PL they can surely get the rapid turnaround tests. I flew to Aberdeen for a job just before Xmas and had to get a PCR test close to the airport. I then got a taxi from the test centre into Aberdeen and checked into my hotel. As I was setting up my laptop in my room I had the text saying they'd sent me the result. 55 minutes between taking the test and receiving the result.
		
Click to expand...

Is it confirmed that the Liverpool players didn’t have a follow up PCR-test?

Just before Christmas I had covid, according to no less than 6 positive LFT tests and the fact that I was quite ill for a week, but 2 PCR tests came back negative during the same time.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Is it confirmed that the Liverpool players didn’t have a follow up PCR-test?

Just before Christmas I had covid, according to no less than 6 positive LFT tests and the fact that I was quite ill for a week, but 2 PCR tests came back negative during the same time.
		
Click to expand...

As an individual that’s always a possibility, I think the problem here was there was a group ( of players) who all tested positive but were in fact negative. And the odds on that are?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 11, 2022)

Spain (PM Pedro Sanchez) has come out as the first major Euopean nation to explicitly suggest the prospect of living with covid and evaluate the move from pandemic to endemic and assess the disease on different parameters than those used so far


----------



## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 11, 2022)

It's getting really depressing here.  People who've had all three jabs are getting it.
That, in turn, is encouraging the anti vaxxer / anti masking miscreants to act up.

It's been a real mess.


----------



## GB72 (Jan 11, 2022)

Intersting one. One of my friends who was at the NYE party tested positive a few days later. Her husband tested negative every day and on a PCR test (he works on an RAF base and needed the PCR test after contact to be allowed on base) until this morning, 11 days after the event. Now has the dreaded second line on hsi LFT. Goes to show the importance of keeping testing.


----------



## garyinderry (Jan 11, 2022)

Had my booster at 9.45am yesterday.  Felt fine all day.  Started getting cold about 11pm.  Spent all night shivering again and got little sleep. Head like a busted sofa this morning. 

Starting to come round a bit now.


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## Billysboots (Jan 11, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			It's getting really depressing here.  People who've had all three jabs are getting it.
That, in turn, is encouraging the anti vaxxer / anti masking miscreants to act up.

It's been a real mess.
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I understand what you are saying, nobody ever said vaccines would stop us getting Covid, merely that they would lessen the symptoms.

Overnight at the moment I have a throat like razor blades but otherwise feel fine. I’m not sure how this second brush with Covid would pan out for me if I hadn’t had all three jabs - I’m just pleased I haven’t had to find out.

I have had far worse colds.


----------



## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I understand that. Can they force employees to show them? Health workers and care workers I understand for patient reasons but this is about whether someone is entitled to sick pay or not. They must have run this past their employment specialists but even so I am surprised that they can ask for this info from their employees.
		
Click to expand...

Everyone gets sick pay, they just won’t give enhanced sick pay topped up by the company.


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## adam6177 (Jan 11, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			It's getting really depressing here.  People who've had all three jabs are getting it.
That, in turn, is encouraging the anti vaxxer / anti masking miscreants to act up.

It's been a real mess.
		
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To be honest I can understand where they're coming from.... All along we've been told to trust the science and get our multiple jabs in a timely manner, keep away from people, wear masks etc etc

Then we're at the stage now where we're told that using alcohol rubs on our hands was pointless as it was an air borne thing. Then we're told that most of the masks people were wearing were little more than face fashion and offered no protection.

But I understand it from both sides, it's been an unprecedented thing, people have done what they perceive to be the best thing to do, yet it wasn't enough or the right thing to do.  Now we're at the stage where it appears to be coming to and end and so much of what we thought was true is being discredited.

Talk about confusion.


----------



## patricks148 (Jan 11, 2022)

Tested negative today so after 7 days I can  think of coming out of isolation tomorrow if a get another clear then. Wife is still negative even being around me the whole time I've had it. Both triple jabed.


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## Billysboots (Jan 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I understand what you are saying, nobody ever said vaccines would stop us getting Covid, merely that they would lessen the symptoms.

Overnight at the moment I have a throat like razor blades but otherwise feel fine. I’m not sure how this second brush with Covid would pan out for me if I hadn’t had all three jabs - I’m just pleased I haven’t had to find out.

I have had far worse colds.
		
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And I must now be positively bursting with antibodies. Anyone who has seen that pesky creature emerge from John Hurt’s abdomen in Alien will understand when I say I fear for my sculpted six-pack 😉.

All those antibodies have got to go somewhere.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I understand what you are saying, nobody ever said vaccines would stop us getting Covid, merely that they would lessen the symptoms.

Overnight at the moment I have a throat like razor blades but otherwise feel fine. I’m not sure how this second brush with Covid would pan out for me if I hadn’t had all three jabs - I’m just pleased I haven’t had to find out.

I have had far worse colds.
		
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i couldn’t of put it better.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Jan 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Whilst I understand what you are saying, nobody ever said vaccines would stop us getting Covid, merely that they would lessen the symptoms.

Overnight at the moment I have a throat like razor blades but otherwise feel fine. I’m not sure how this second brush with Covid would pan out for me if I hadn’t had all three jabs - I’m just pleased I haven’t had to find out.

I have had far worse colds.
		
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Get and stay well, 'boots.


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## Billysboots (Jan 11, 2022)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Get and stay well, 'boots.
		
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Thanks. Feeling okay, but don’t tell the wife. She’s enjoying looking after me 😎


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## Golfmmad (Jan 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Thanks. Feeling okay, but don’t tell the wife. She’s enjoying looking after me 😎
		
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Don't milk it too much! 😉.


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## rudebhoy (Jan 12, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Spain (PM Pedro Sanchez) has come out as the first major Euopean nation to explicitly suggest the prospect of living with covid and evaluate the move from pandemic to endemic and assess the disease on different parameters than those used so far
		
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Careful, "political" posts not allowed, particularly if they mention a PM


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## GreiginFife (Jan 12, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Spain (PM Pedro Sanchez) has come out as the first major Euopean nation to explicitly suggest the prospect of living with covid and evaluate the move from pandemic to endemic and assess the disease on different parameters than those used so far
		
Click to expand...


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## Robster59 (Jan 12, 2022)

My Mum (98) had a fall at home a week ago and was taken to hospital.  She was put into a restricted ward to try and prevent her getting Covid but was tested yesterday and found to be Covid positive, but no symptoms as yet.  The problem is that on arrival she was in A&E in a corridor for hours, and it may well be possible she picked it up there.  Annoying as she has not contracted it living at home with care visitors every day.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 12, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			My Mum (98) had a fall at home a week ago and was taken to hospital.  She was put into a restricted ward to try and prevent her getting Covid but was tested yesterday and found to be Covid positive, but no symptoms as yet.  The problem is that on arrival she was in A&E in a corridor for hours, and it may well be possible she picked it up there.  Annoying as she has not contracted it living at home with care visitors every day.
		
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This is my concern for the future. I feel that we are getting closer to the point re what the Spanish prime minister said yesterday, that we have to look at COVID as an endemic and not a pandemic. If that is the case ( and I do believe with him to an extent that we will have to live with it). It still leaves my parents, in laws and others who have underlying health issues in a situation where they have to be as careful as possible to try not to catch COVID, when the world has returned to normal.
Hope all turns out well Robster me man.


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## Robster59 (Jan 12, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			This is my concern for the future. I feel that we are getting closer to the point re what the Spanish prime minister said yesterday, that we have to look at COVID as an endemic and not a pandemic. If that is the case ( and I do believe with him to an extent that we will have to live with it). It still leaves my parents, in laws and others who have underlying health issues in a situation where they have to be as careful as possible to try not to catch COVID, when the world has returned to normal.
Hope all turns out well Robster me man.
		
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Thanks.  There's a bit more to it so I've posted War and Peace in the Dementia thread.  
I've also just got off the phone to Social Services to make sure they know not to mess me around.


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2022)

Bowls club closed for a week. We had a number of visitors on Monday, practicing for the regional pairs that were due to start tomorrow. One of them has tested positive today. No inter-club league match this afternoon and no regional pairs.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 12, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Bowls club closed for a week. We had a number of visitors on Monday, practicing for the regional pairs that were due to start tomorrow. One of them has tested positive today. No inter-club league match this afternoon and no regional pairs.
		
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Must be Karma for your 26 degree centigrade post


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Must be Karma for your 26 degree centigrade post 

Click to expand...

Only 16* today


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## williamalex1 (Jan 12, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Only 16* today
		
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Don't grovel


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Don't grovel 

Click to expand...

Yeah, it was rough having a full English this morning sat on the terrace of one of my fav restaurants overlooking the sea.


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## Robster59 (Jan 12, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Yeah, it was rough having a full English this morning sat on the terrace of one of my fav restaurants overlooking the sea.

Click to expand...

Surely that should be under Random Irritations?


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## IanM (Jan 12, 2022)

You can go off some folk!


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## williamalex1 (Jan 12, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Yeah, it was rough having a full English this morning sat on the terrace of one of my fav restaurants overlooking the sea.

Click to expand...

Can you feel any stabbing pains, like pins being stuck in ,


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## Hobbit (Jan 12, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			Can you feel any stabbing pains, like pins being stuck in , 

Click to expand...

Already fully vaxxed


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## road2ruin (Jan 13, 2022)

Self isolation cut again, down to 5 days assuming a negative test on Days 5 and 6.


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## Foxholer (Jan 13, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Yeah, it was rough having a full English this morning sat on the terrace of one of my fav restaurants overlooking the sea.

Click to expand...

I remember the drongo Brit who hankered after 'full English' on a riding holiday in the Dordogne many years ago! Fresh French bread etc was far more appropriate. Weather has a big influence on 'optimum style of' breakfast imo. Aformentioned Brit was from Ipswich, so probably used to chillier mornings that in Sarlat at that time of year.


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## Hobbit (Jan 13, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			LFT’s are €5.45, or €5.95
		
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Spanish Govt sets the max price at €2.94.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 13, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Spanish Govt sets the max price at €2.94.
		
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Per pack or per test?


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## Hobbit (Jan 13, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Per pack or per test?
		
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Per LFT test.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 13, 2022)

2 yrs into this and the first member of staff to test positive happens today. Bother was the word I used, probably. As a small company it has quite an impact but maybe we have been lucky to get away with it so far. She is fine, a bit achey, so it is simply an inconvenience for us all.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 13, 2022)

Wifes pre school is now 6 members of staff down, getting towards the point where they will have to start prioritising which children can attend and which will be asked not to come in until they have more staff😳


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## larmen (Jan 14, 2022)

A German medical journal (Arztezeitung) has found a new symptom for Corona virus. If you pass out repeatedly, please to a test, it could be a sign of Covid!

Seriously, who when passing out (repeatedly) isn't going to contact either A&E or a GP anyway?


----------



## SatchFan (Jan 14, 2022)

Had my first train journey in quite a while. Everyone was wearing a mask. Quite impressed.


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## Billysboots (Jan 14, 2022)

SatchFan said:



			Had my first train journey in quite a while. Everyone was wearing a mask. Quite impressed.
		
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I use the train fairly regularly and I’d say compliance is at around 90-95%. Those not complying tend to be primarily the under 30’s.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I use the train fairly regularly and I’d say compliance is at around 90-95%. Those not complying tend to be primarily the under 30’s.
		
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Lucky to get 70% on London Underground. Same age group are the main offenders down here.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 14, 2022)

I've read a few posts on Social Media where a number of people are saying they've had their fourth Covid vaccination. I can't find anything saying the NHS are giving fourth jabs. Anyone know about this?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I use the train fairly regularly and I’d say compliance is at around 90-95%. Those not complying tend to be primarily the under 30’s.
		
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Don't think its as high as 9-95% certainly not on the route I use daily. I would say more 80-85% and definitely the younger end of the scale (school kids and those up to about 25) but there is also a large number still wearing them incorrectly with it not pulled over the nose


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## bobmac (Jan 14, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've read a few posts on Social Media where a number of people are saying they've had their fourth Covid vaccination. I can't find anything saying the NHS are giving fourth jabs. Anyone know about this?
		
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Rubbish.
If there was a second booster, it would be all over the news and it's not so there isn't.


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've read a few posts on Social Media where a number of people are saying they've had their fourth Covid vaccination. I can't find anything saying the NHS are giving fourth jabs. Anyone know about this?
		
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Clinically vulnerable people with immunological conditions got an extra one. No plans for an extra booster for everybody else.


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Clinically vulnerable people with immunological conditions got an extra one. No plans for an extra booster for everybody else.
		
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Wasn't it a 3rd Primary dose? So Booster makes 4 for them? Or are Primary and Booster doses 'the same' albeit different A/Vs? I know of someone in that category - who is still hanging on.


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## IainP (Jan 14, 2022)

Took my wife for her 4th full dose today (no boosters)


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## Ethan (Jan 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Wasn't it a 3rd Primary dose? So Booster makes 4 for them? Or are Primary and Booster doses 'the same' albeit different A/Vs? I know of someone in that category - who is still hanging on.
		
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A dose is a dose, the descriptors are mostly for administrative or communication reasons.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 15, 2022)

IainP said:



			Took my wife for her 4th full dose today (no boosters)
		
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Is she in a vulnerable category?


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## drdel (Jan 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Is she in a vulnerable category?
		
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Well the lady has a golfing husband !


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 16, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			My Mum (98) had a fall at home a week ago and was taken to hospital.  She was put into a restricted ward to try and prevent her getting Covid but was tested yesterday and found to be Covid positive, but no symptoms as yet.  The problem is that on arrival she was in A&E in a corridor for hours, and it may well be possible she picked it up there.  Annoying as she has not contracted it living at home with care visitors every day.
		
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Without wishing to sound harsh, she may have brought it into the hospital with her.
I know a few oldies who do not seem to understand that they just might be the carrier.


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## larmen (Jan 16, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Without wishing to sound harsh, she may have brought it into the hospital with her.
I know a few oldies who do not seem to understand that they just might be the carrier.
		
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Many years ago (2015ish?) they checked me for sars before admitting. Every time. No one was admitted before being swapped, so if you got it you got it there. (Simplified)


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## spongebob59 (Jan 16, 2022)

Should be out from the paywall


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1482729356917022720


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## Doon frae Troon (Jan 18, 2022)

Nearly all Scottish covid restrictions to finish on 24th Jan.
Well done to all involved in keeping us safe.


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## Robster59 (Jan 19, 2022)

Words fail me
Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally


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## Robster59 (Jan 19, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Without wishing to sound harsh, she may have brought it into the hospital with her.
I know a few oldies who do not seem to understand that they just might be the carrier.
		
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I agree it could be a possibility, but she is housebound and hasn't left the house for as long as I can remember.  Her contact is my brother and her carers.  My brother hasn't had it and I would hope that if a carer had contracted it, they would be checking on the patients they care for.  So whilst it cannot be certain she caught it in hospital, it is certainly a reasonable possibility.


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## Robster59 (Jan 19, 2022)

We've been extra careful since my Father in Law passed away as, if we had been diagnosed with Covid, we would not have been able to attend his funeral.


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## D-S (Jan 19, 2022)

Bumped into two people at the golf club today, who interestingly had identical experiences. They both had family gatherings scheduled for Christmas and as a precaution had LFTs, one had a sniffle (he couldn't even call it a cold). the other nothing, both tested positive and had to 'cancel' Christmas. Both wives subsequently contracted it but had no symptoms. All were over 70 and all triple jabbed and very thankful for it.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 19, 2022)

So it sounds like March 24th will be the official return to normal life. At long bloody last...


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 19, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So it sounds like March 24th will be the official return to normal life. At long bloody last...
		
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according to the metro (with accompanying video featuring a man with blonde hair) it was mentioned in that room with the green leather seats that
It’s January 27th that sees removal of “plan B”.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 19, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			according to the metro (with accompanying video featuring a man with blonde hair) it was mentioned in that room with the green leather seats that
It’s January 27th that sees removal of “plan B”.
		
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According to sky news March 24th is the date that it will no longer be a legal requirement to isolate if you're positive, which I think will be the last remaining actual restriction on normal life


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 19, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			According to sky news March 24th is the date that it will no longer be a legal requirement to isolate if you're positive, which I think will be the last remaining actual restriction on normal life
		
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That's a massive change. I'm surprised they would suggest that two months out but removing isolation is a major move.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 19, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			According to sky news March 24th is the date that it will no longer be a legal requirement to isolate if you're positive, which I think will be the last remaining actual restriction on normal life
		
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Oh! 

Well that’s silly and hasty. Too early to say things like that, people still need accept it as part of life. The mental damage done to some is still raw.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 19, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Oh!

Well that’s silly and hasty. Too early to say things like that, people still need accept it as part of life. The mental damage done to some is still raw.
		
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Have to disagree. The country is on its knees financially, people are being forced to stay off work and in a lot of cases lose money, for something which is now no worse than a bad cold in most cases. It will be part of life, probably for ever, there has to be a point where we roll up our sleeves and get on. THe jab roll out has been a huge success, and it is clearly working, so it is time to get the country back to work, and not a minut too soon.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2022)

Good to see that we will soon be moving towards normal life with thre virus being treated like the flu


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 19, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Have to disagree. The country is on its knees financially, people are being forced to stay off work and in a lot of cases lose money, for something which is now no worse than a bad cold in most cases. It will be part of life, probably for ever, there has to be a point where we roll up our sleeves and get on. THe jab roll out has been a huge success, and it is clearly working, so it is time to get the country back to work, and not a minut too soon.
		
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I’ve hated all restrictions from the start, but I think those who are still frightened need nudging back to normal with some positivity from the doom and gloom media before they jump to lifting everything in one swoop!
 I don’t want a loud minority spoiling it all you know!


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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Words fail me
Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally

Click to expand...

An almost understandable reason that turned into a disaster!
Djokovic's approach _may_ have been similar.
Like many of the countries in that area, they seem to have high case and death rates. Maybe it's a continuing distrust of government 'decrees', even when it's for their own good health.


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## Hobbit (Jan 19, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			I’ve hated all restrictions from the start, but I think those who are still frightened need nudging back to normal with some positivity from the doom and gloom media before they jump to lifting everything in one swoop!
I don’t want a loud minority spoiling it all you know!
		
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Just because someone lifts a restriction it doesn’t mean you have to go out. There’s places here in Spain we don’t visit but they’re open. Common sense can still be applied if someone disagrees.


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## Baldy Bouncer (Jan 19, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			Words fail me
Hana Horka: Czech singer dies after catching Covid intentionally

Click to expand...


Looks like this years Darwin Award winner to me


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## SocketRocket (Jan 19, 2022)

Baldy Bouncer said:



			Looks like this years Darwin Award winner to me

Click to expand...

Maybe that can be awarded to all cases of Covidiocy. Those suggesting its OK to stop isolation for positive cases should be first in the line.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 19, 2022)

I have some reservations despite the untold damage it has done to my own well being but more so my colleagues that have had to nurse covid patients day in and day out for the last two years. They are physically spent and emotionally drained. We aren't seeing a decrease in numbers and it has gone up overall in the trust (more than 100 patients around the hospital) and more in ICU (up to nine - 5 triple jabbed and ALL ventilated). 

Given how easily Omicrom spreads and having seen how it can affect even those triple jabbed (and put them in ICU) I am really nervous about the removal of face masks in particular. https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...as-england-plan-b-rules-to-be-lifted-12519897 I think that is too much too soon and not something I am prepared to do yet and will keep mine on

I am not convinced we are entering a covid endgame and don't think we've seen the back of this at all and we are a long way from living with it in the same way as flu. What happens with the next mutation? What happens if it not only spreads like Omicrom, but is more deadly (not sure those in ICU would say Omicrom hasn't had an effect). In my mind this is a long way from it being the same as living with flu


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## SaintHacker (Jan 19, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Given how easily Omicrom spreads and having seen how it can affect even those triple jabbed (and put them in ICU) I am really nervous about the removal of face masks in particular.
		
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Do you know for a fact they have the Omicron variant?


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## larmen (Jan 19, 2022)

We now have Covid in the house. How have people dealt with that? 
Misses is positive, got boosted about a month ago.
I got boosted about 2 months ago. Junior is too young for vaccines.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 19, 2022)

Happy to see the light at the end of the tunnel getting brighter.
Unfortunately whatever decisions are made there won’t be 100% support.

I’m sure there are some who think we’ve waited too long and those who’ll think we won’t have waited long enough.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 19, 2022)

larmen said:



			We now have Covid in the house. How have people dealt with that?
Misses is positive, got boosted about a month ago.
I got boosted about 2 months ago. Junior is too young for vaccines.
		
Click to expand...

Just accept you are all going to get it because you will.

We are in that boat now, I tested positive Saturday they they both have it(Mrs double jabbed and boosted, son age 8)  now despite me hiding away.

Only place any of us have been is work or school. Most likely I got it at work, over 1100 positive cases on the Nuclear site I work at in the last 2 weeks. Both sets of parents are in their 80's just hoping we haven't passed it on to them as they all suffer from various ailments associated with their age. Will be leaving it a few days after testing out just to be on the safe side before I pop round to see my mam and dad

This is what worries me moving forward so to speak back to 'normal'......


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 19, 2022)

saving_par said:



*Just accept you are all going to get it because you will*.

We are in that boat now, I tested positive Saturday they they both have it(Mrs double jabbed and boosted, son age 8)  now despite me hiding away.

Only place any of us have been is work or school. Most likely I got it at work, over 1100 positive cases on the Nuclear site I work at in the last 2 weeks. Both sets of parents are in their 80's just hoping we haven't passed it on to them as they all suffer from various ailments associated with their age. Will be leaving it a few days after testing out just to be on the safe side before I pop round to see my mam and dad

This is what worries me moving forward so to speak back to 'normal'......
		
Click to expand...

Why?  Mrs BiM tested positive just before Christmas, every LFT that I did whilst she was isolating in the bedroom was negative.

There was an upside to this as Mrs BiM was desperate for me to go out & play more golf so that she could have a wander round the house for a few hours.  Shame the weather was so .


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## yandabrown (Jan 19, 2022)

larmen said:



			We now have Covid in the house. How have people dealt with that?
Misses is positive, got boosted about a month ago.
I got boosted about 2 months ago. Junior is too young for vaccines.
		
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Our eldest has just finished isolating, essentially grounded in her room, only allowed out to bathroom. All drinks and meals placed outside and collected later. She hated it and is now very relieved to be back to normal. None of the rest of us have caught it so far, touch wood! Everyone is triple jabbed. Probably came from the pub where she works as a waitress a couple of times a week.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 19, 2022)

larmen said:



			We now have Covid in the house. How have people dealt with that?
Misses is positive, got boosted about a month ago.
I got boosted about 2 months ago. Junior is too young for vaccines.
		
Click to expand...



 Three Colleagues kids have had it one twice. No onward transmission to colleagues. Kids too young to quarantine in a room so normal family things. 

My Brother is still at home but didn’t pass it on to my parents when he got it. Not asked but knowing my brother I doubt he came out of his room.

 Pre vaccine Missus grandad had it after coming home from hospital, he fell fatally with it on return and was washed, clothed by his wife who didn’t catch it. 

Personally I’d use this as an excuse to lock away the other half and get the feet up!


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## larmen (Jan 20, 2022)

Problem would be to keep the 5 year old away from mummy, impossible.

We have a posh shed with the old couch in it, but that idea didn’t fly ;-(


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

Vaccinating down to 5 yr old here in Spain. A few incidents of incompetence being reported. 2 children have been vaccinated even though their parents ticked ‘no’ on the permission slip. One child has been vaccinated twice on the same day.


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## theoneandonly (Jan 20, 2022)

saving_par said:



			Just accept you are all going to get it because you will.

We are in that boat now, I tested positive Saturday they they both have it(Mrs double jabbed and boosted, son age 8)  now despite me hiding away.

Only place any of us have been is work or school. Most likely I got it at work, over 1100 positive cases on the Nuclear site I work at in the last 2 weeks. Both sets of parents are in their 80's just hoping we haven't passed it on to them as they all suffer from various ailments associated with their age. Will be leaving it a few days after testing out just to be on the safe side before I pop round to see my mam and dad

This is what worries me moving forward so to speak back to 'normal'......
		
Click to expand...

2 of my kids had it over Christmas, no isolating in the home. Neither I nor Mrs caught it.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			2 of my kids had it over Christmas, no isolating in the home. Neither I nor Mrs caught it.
		
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If you and the missus were vaxxed, that would probably be why you didn't get it. You would not have been able to avoid being exposed.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 20, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			2 of my kids had it over Christmas, no isolating in the home. Neither I nor Mrs caught it.
		
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Ethan said:



			If you and the missus were vaxxed, that would probably be why you didn't get it. You would not have been able to avoid being exposed.
		
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My younger son brought it into our house. He's only 10 so we weren't strict on him isolating away from the rest of us. Myself and Mrs Colch who at the time were both double jabbed caught it. My older son who's 12 and at the time wasn't jabbed didn't catch it. Sometimes it just seems to be completely random who gets it and who doesn't. Some friends of ours who have a son and a daughter had it in their house. Son caught it at school and brought it home. Mum and daughter also got it. But neither dad or grandma in the same house caught it. All of the adults were vaxxed as was the son.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			My younger son brought it into our house. He's only 10 so we weren't strict on him isolating away from the rest of us. Myself and Mrs Colch who at the time were both double jabbed caught it. My older son who's 12 and at the time wasn't jabbed didn't catch it. Sometimes it just seems to be completely random who gets it and who doesn't. Some friends of ours who have a son and a daughter had it in their house. Son caught it at school and brought it home. Mum and daughter also got it. But neither dad or grandma in the same house caught it. All of the adults were vaxxed as was the son.
		
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To a degree it is random, one of you might get a large load of virus, the other less, but kids tend to spread it around pretty well. The other aspect is personal immunity. Some people are naturally a bit more resistant, in the sense that a certain load of virus might trigger symptoms in one person, but not another, although they may be equally transmissible. And if you got it, likely that the severity was damped by vax.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 20, 2022)

3 out of the 4 of us had it at the same time before Christmas. I didn’t get it despite making no effort to avoid the other three.


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## theoneandonly (Jan 20, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			My younger son brought it into our house. He's only 10 so we weren't strict on him isolating away from the rest of us. Myself and Mrs Colch who at the time were both double jabbed caught it. My older son who's 12 and at the time wasn't jabbed didn't catch it. Sometimes it just seems to be completely random who gets it and who doesn't. Some friends of ours who have a son and a daughter had it in their house. Son caught it at school and brought it home. Mum and daughter also got it. But neither dad or grandma in the same house caught it. All of the adults were vaxxed as was the son.
		
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Me and Mrs had both had the booster which is why we assumed we didn't catch it and we're happy for them to be around the house. After all what's the point in the vaccine otherwise.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 20, 2022)

Daughter has tested positive this morning no symptoms so a good chance she's been sharing it round for a couple of days


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

On the three occasions one of our household has had it (me twice, daughter once) we have not isolated in the house and nobody else in the family has caught it.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			On the three occasions one of our household has had it (me twice, daughter once) we have not isolated in the house and nobody else in the family has caught it.
		
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Do you mean nobody else had symptoms, or nobody else tested positive?


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Do you mean nobody else had symptoms, or nobody else tested positive?
		
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Nobody else tested positive. My kids were both testing for college, as was my wife for work.


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## GB72 (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			On the three occasions one of our household has had it (me twice, daughter once) we have not isolated in the house and nobody else in the family has caught it.
		
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Mate of mine's wife had it, he tested postive on day 9 of her isolation. Tested daily prior and had a PCR test as was needed for work prior to that and all negative.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Nobody else tested positive. My kids were both testing for college, as was my wife for work.
		
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OK, good. Again, there could be a vax effect, if your immunity completely quashed any virus that got into you, or you just may have dodged the lurgy.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2022)

With the lifting of all coronavirus containment measures on the immediate horizon we have no real idea how we are going to manage my brother-in-laws possibly very high vulnerability to infection given his blood cancer (multiple myeloma) and pretty shot immune system.

It’s all very well saying we have to live with the virus, which in time of course we will have to do, but there do still seem to be quite a number of questions not yet resolved about the virus and variants, and the risk they present to the vulnerable.  Unfortunately my BiLs condition is one of periodic and potentially quite serious relapse/recurrence so it is most likely not going to be the case of him recovering to a point he can just get on with living ‘as normal’…but we just don’t know…

OK it seems that the current main (Omicron) variant does not seem to present a great risk to the general vaccinated public, but for my BiL it feels he is probably going to have to be very careful about going out of the house and mixing with others, if he does mix at all, and we will have to be very aware of our own exposure to the virus as we do our best to provide him with the support he will therefore require.  Because given the pressures, he isn‘t going to get that much from the state unless the state recognises the specific needs of the most vulnerable in a ‘we need to learn to live with it’ environment.

Hopefully in the coming weeks we will learn more about how much his immune system will recover over the coming months, and how much risk the coronavirus is likely to present to him on an ongoing ‘for ever’ basis.

Meanwhile my wife and I have to work out how we support him (and as she is in the same house - my 91yr old mil) at the same time protect him from infection, and clearly that includes infection that we might pick up.  Noting the subject of this discussion, this uncertainty is all rather worrying for us.


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK, good. Again, there could be a vax effect, if your immunity completely quashed any virus that got into you, or you just may have dodged the lurgy.
		
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Having been terrified by this virus in 2020, as I have a mild underlying condition, I now feel blessed to have had it twice, especially with the recent bout. I’m guessing two infections and three jabs will have given me some fairly good immunity moving forward.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 20, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With the lifting of all coronavirus containment measures on the immediate horizon we have no real idea how we are going to manage my brother-in-laws possibly very high vulnerability to infection given his blood cancer (multiple myeloma) and pretty shot immune system.

It’s all very well saying we have to live with the virus, which in time of course we will have to do, but there do still seem to be quite a number of questions not yet resolved about the virus and variants, and the risk they present to the vulnerable.  Unfortunately by BiLs condition is one of periodic and potentially quite serious relapse/recurrence so it is most likely not going to be the cases of him recovering to a point he can just get on with living ‘as normal’…but we just don’t know…

OK it seems that the current main (Omicron) variant does not seem to present a great risk to the general vaccinated public, but for my BiL it feels he is probably going to have to be very careful about going out of the house and mixing with others, if he does mix at all, and we will have to be very aware of our own exposure to the virus as we do our best to provide him with the support he will therefore require.  Because given the pressures, he isn‘t going to get that much from the state unless the state recognises the specific needs of the most vulnerable in a ‘we need to learn to live with it’ environment.

Hopefully in the coming weeks we will learn more about how much his immune system will recover over the coming months, and how much risk the coronavirus is likely to present to him on an ongoing ‘for ever’ basis.

Meanwhile my wife and I have to work out how we support him (and as she is in the same house - my 91yr old mil) at the same time protect him from infection, and clearly that includes infection that we might pick up.  Noting the subject of this discussion, this uncertainty is all rather worrying for us.
		
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Given your situation I would continue to exercise caution. So what I feel is necessary today will continue to be what I feel is necessary tomorrow, or next Thursday and so on.


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## Neilds (Jan 20, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With the lifting of all coronavirus containment measures on the immediate horizon we have no real idea how we are going to manage my brother-in-laws possibly very high vulnerability to infection given his blood cancer (multiple myeloma) and pretty shot immune system.

It’s all very well saying we have to live with the virus, which in time of course we will have to do, but there do still seem to be quite a number of questions not yet resolved about the virus and variants, and the risk they present to the vulnerable.  Unfortunately by BiLs condition is one of periodic and potentially quite serious relapse/recurrence so it is most likely not going to be the cases of him recovering to a point he can just get on with living ‘as normal’…but we just don’t know…

OK it seems that the current main (Omicron) variant does not seem to present a great risk to the general vaccinated public, but for my BiL it feels he is probably going to have to be very careful about going out of the house and mixing with others, if he does mix at all, and we will have to be very aware of our own exposure to the virus as we do our best to provide him with the support he will therefore require.  Because given the pressures, he isn‘t going to get that much from the state unless the state recognises the specific needs of the most vulnerable in a ‘we need to learn to live with it’ environment.

Hopefully in the coming weeks we will learn more about how much his immune system will recover over the coming months, and how much risk the coronavirus is likely to present to him on an ongoing ‘for ever’ basis.

Meanwhile my wife and I have to work out how we support him (and as she is in the same house - my 91yr old mil) at the same time protect him from infection, and clearly that includes infection that we might pick up.  Noting the subject of this discussion, this uncertainty is all rather worrying for us.
		
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Whilst I understand, and sympathise with your situation, is living with the covid risk going to be any different than living with the risk from flu, colds, or any of the other multitude of viruses that your BiL could catch?


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## theoneandonly (Jan 20, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Whilst I understand, and sympathise with your situation, is living with the covid risk going to be any different than living with the risk from flu, colds, or any of the other multitude of viruses that your BiL could catch?
		
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I think with covid still being so prevalent and Add to that so many are asymptomatic potentially spreading . it's a fair worry. My son had scratchy throat while my daughter was completely symptomless.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Whilst I understand, and sympathise with your situation, is living with the covid risk going to be any different than living with the risk from flu, colds, or any of the other multitude of viruses that your BiL could catch?
		
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Yes, Covid isn't a Cold or Flu, it's a more dangerous virus that has the capacity to create long term illness and organ damage.  The prospect of people just living with it in its current form is reckless and frightening to me


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Whilst I understand, and sympathise with your situation, is living with the covid risk going to be any different than living with the risk from flu, colds, or any of the other multitude of viruses that your BiL could catch?
		
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You took the words straight out of my mouth. 

I echo your comments and also have sympathy with SILH’s situation, but have to ask whether he expects “the state” to assist him in keeping his BiL safe from flu. I had no idea until I read it the other day, that flu kills 200-300 every day in this country during a bad winter. The only protection offered by “the state” is the jab, plus an expectation that we take some responsibility for our own welfare. I fail to see why Covid should be any different.

And as regards further variants, we can’t second guess what is going to happen in the weeks and months to come. If we are indeed heading towards endemic rather than pandemic, at least in the U.K., so we have to rely on vaccines and our own common sense to keep us safe, just as we do with other diseases.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			You took the words straight out of my mouth.

I echo your comments and also have sympathy with SILH’s situation, but have to ask whether he expects “the state” to assist him in keeping his BiL safe from flu. I had no idea until I read it the other day, that flu kills 200-300 every day in this country during a bad winter. The only protection offered by “the state” is the jab, plus an expectation that we take some responsibility for our own welfare. I fail to see why Covid should be any different.

And as regards further variants, we can’t second guess what is going to happen in the weeks and months to come. If we are indeed heading towards endemic rather than pandemic, at least in the U.K., so we have to rely on vaccines and our own common sense to keep us safe, just as we do with other diseases.
		
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Rely on people's common sense, Really!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

When do people want the country to go back to normal then ? The virus is not going to go but it’s clear that the potency of the virus has reduced dramatically 

In previous years people who have serious illness took personal responsibility to take care to ensure they wont be exposed to common colds , the winter flu etc 

People are going to pass away from the virus just like they have done from the flu - there will be a vaccine each year for us all 

It’s coming up to two years Now and we need to move forward and this seems to be the time for the restrictions to ease down until they end in March - and then it’s down to personal choice , if you want to continue to wear a mask then do so , if you want to self isolate then do so

The lockdown and restrictions have ended more life’s than just from the virus - and we need to stop letting it dominate our daily life now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Whilst I understand, and sympathise with your situation, is living with the covid risk going to be any different than living with the risk from flu, colds, or any of the other multitude of viruses that your BiL could catch?
		
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That is exactly the sort of question that we do not know the answer to, either from his specific immunity to a coronavirus and reaction to whatever variant might be present, or indeed what risk the virus and variants might pose to us all, never mind the more vulnerable, both immediately and in the ‘long covid‘ sense.

We have a very significant body of knowledge built up around such as flu and cold virus’ and multiple variants, with sophisticated anti-virus vaccines, that inform how the most vulnerable manage their life.  Simply by dint of the newness of the coronavirus we just do not have such experience and understanding.  And so on that basis I do not know how we can just treat the coronavirus like ‘any old’ virus.

And I repeat - I am making no comment on the right or wrong of completely relaxing all containment measures, nor am I making any wider implications, and of course I recognise a wider societal and economic need for ’getting back to a normality’.  My only concern in that respect is … why ALL measures when there seems to remain much to learn about this virus and it’s variants.

As per the topic subject…this is how a complete removal of all constraints as Timetabled yesterday will impact my family.


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Rely on people's common sense, Really!
		
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But what else do you suggest? Those who wanted three jabs have largely had them. We’ve had a huge number of Omicron cases and, whilst the NHS has been under enormous pressure, as it is every winter, it hasn’t been overwhelmed.

So we now appear to have a straight choice. We either rely on vaccines and people taking some personal responsibility, or we continue to have restrictions placed upon us, which even our own decision makers appear to believe can no longer be justified.

So, yes. It would seem the time is rapidly approaching when we all need to take some responsibility for our own decisions/actions, and the consequences they bring about. I fail to see what alternative there is given the way this seems to be heading.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When do people want the country to go back to normal then ? The virus is not going to go but it’s clear that the potency of the virus has reduced dramatically

In previous years people who have serious illness took personal responsibility to take care to ensure they wont be exposed to common colds , the winter flu etc

People are going to pass away from the virus just like they have done from the flu - there will be a vaccine each year for us all

It’s coming up to two years Now and we need to move forward and this seems to be the time for the restrictions to ease down until they end in March - and then it’s down to personal choice , if you want to continue to wear a mask then do so , if you want to self isolate then do so

The lockdown and restrictions have ended more life’s than just from the virus - and we need to stop letting it dominate our daily life now.
		
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That's a 'Sod you mate, I'm in the lifeboat'  kind of attitude.

You're probably not in a situation where some of your loved ones could lose their lives if they caught it.   Why is it that England is almost on it's own considering this 'Just get on with it' attitude in the World. It's just the wrong time at the moment.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a 'Sod you mate, I'm in the lifeboat'  kind of attitude.

You're probably not in a situation where some of your loved ones could loose their lives if they caught it.   Why is it that England is almost on it's own considering this 'Just get on with it' attitude in the World. It's just the wrong time at the moment.
		
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Totally agree. Both in-laws have serious underlying conditions and have kept going out to a minimum where possible. What happens when the next variant comes along and isn't as "potent" even though we are still seeing hospital admissions and daily deaths. Some peopel simply don't have too much of a choice and a return to the "sod everyone" comes with serious risks. Surely wearing a mask, keeping space etc isn't exactly dominating normal life


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But what else do you suggest? Those who wanted three jabs have largely had them. We’ve had a huge number of Omicron cases and, whilst the NHS has been under enormous pressure, as it is every winter, it hasn’t been overwhelmed.

So we now appear to have a straight choice. We either rely on vaccines and people taking some personal responsibility, or we continue to have restrictions placed upon us, which even our own decision makers appear to believe can no longer be justified.

So, yes. It would seem the time is rapidly approaching when we all need to take some responsibility for our own decisions/actions, and the consequences they bring about. I fail to see what alternative there is given the way this seems to be heading.
		
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The NHS hasn't been under this type of pressure every winter, the staff are exhausted with it and can't be expected to continue that way.  It's just not the right time yet to drop the gloves.

The times you talk of are ahead but not now.  The current mask precautions are not asking much of people.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a 'Sod you mate, I'm in the lifeboat'  kind of attitude.

You're probably not in a situation where some of your loved ones could loose their lives if they caught it.   Why is it that England is almost on it's own considering this 'Just get on with it' attitude in the World. It's just the wrong time at the moment.
		
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Not it’s not at all - I’m just happy that i will have the common sense and ability to judge each situation on it’s own merit 

And you have no Idea what my situation is regards loved ones.

And it’s not just England - Scotland I believe will be removing restrictions before us 

The world needs to move on - it’s two years now , many others are suffering outside of Covid that need to be addressed 

You can carry on with your own restrictions if you wish , no one will be telling you that you’re not allowed to wear a mask or keep space from people 

There are millions in the country that need things to return to normalcy both financially and mentally


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## davidy233 (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And it’s not just England - Scotland I believe will be removing restrictions before us
		
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You base that on what? Scotland's rules are changing on Monday but they aren't all getting thrown out as in England - masks on public transport will still be in force etc.


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

A question for those who think that anyone who condones a return to normality is being selfish - at what point will you accept that Covid must become part of our lives?

It’s a serious question, and I’m genuinely interested to hear the replies. There *has *to be an end to mandated restrictions. I have nothing against those who want to continue to wear face coverings and social distance, but we can’t mandate restrictions indefinitely. 

Do you have a figure in mind with regard to daily deaths, infections or hospital admissions? Because we can’t live our lives for ever more using the rather woolly rationale of “just in case”. People will continue to fall ill, with Covid, flu, pneumonia and other diseases. They will continue to die. 

But we can’t continue to play sport in empty stadia, restrict foreign travel, make people feel guilty for attending social functions and so on, without some clear and defined scenario when that will end.

All I am really reading here in support of ongoing restrictions and caution is “what if” or “until more is known”. In other words, indefinitely. That’s not really a goer, is it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

davidy233 said:



			You base that on what?
		
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https://news.sky.com/story/amp/covi...in-scotland-to-be-lifted-next-monday-12519177


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## davidy233 (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://news.sky.com/story/amp/covi...in-scotland-to-be-lifted-next-monday-12519177

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Not anything like England's blanket lifting of nearly all restrictions - work from home, masks etc.


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## road2ruin (Jan 20, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What happens when the next variant comes along and isn't as "potent" even though we are still seeing hospital admissions and daily deaths.
		
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The issue with any future variants is that they're going to come and it's unlikely to be due to what we do with the restrictions. They will come from abroad, probably from countries that have far lower vaccination rates and there will be nothing we can do to keep it out, that's already been proved with every other variant that's found its way across our border. The thing is this might be next month, six months or further down the line however you cannot keep restrictions in place just in case. Personally I have my doubts whether lifting everything so quickly is a good idea however that's not really do to with variants etc, it's just because it's still winter. Maybe wait until the weather warms up, we're all outside more and the transmission will naturally decrease anyway.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 20, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The issue with any future variants is that they're going to come and it's unlikely to be due to what we do with the restrictions. They will come from abroad, probably from countries that have far lower vaccination rates and there will be nothing we can do to keep it out, that's already been proved with every other variant that's found its way across our border. The thing is this might be next month, six months or further down the line however you cannot keep restrictions in place just in case. Personally I have my doubts whether lifting everything so quickly is a good idea however that's not really do to with variants etc, it's just because it's still winter. Maybe wait until the weather warms up, we're all outside more and the transmission will naturally decrease anyway.
		
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Nurses and medical staff are still flat out and haven't recovered from the last two years. This isn't the time. There is still significant staff absence to add to the pressure and we are still in the midst of normal winter pressures on top of covid. When will there return to normality mentally come. As long as everyone else is alright. I agree changes need to be made but this smacks of too much too soon


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## PNWokingham (Jan 20, 2022)

totally agree with the various posts of Billy and Phil so not going to repeat the same points. There is no way the government can continence keeping restrictions much longer as the public and MPs would not allow it. We are in a different place and different rules (i mean lack of them) are needed. As to comments that idiots will be idiots, that is applicable to everything not just covid. Roll back the laws and crack on with life - and that means be as cautious as you want in where you go, with whom and when, and what you wear on your face.


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## road2ruin (Jan 20, 2022)

Rather worrying figures from the ONS about the increased deaths in 15-19yr old males that is potentially linked to the vaccine. 

_At the High Court on Thursday 13th January, the ONS (Office for National Statistics) confirmed that there has been a significant rise in the death rate for adolescent males over the last eight months, compared to the same time period of 2015-2019.  There have been at least *65* extra deaths in England and Wales,  though the figure may be higher due to reporting delays for coroners cases.  During the same time frame there were only 2 deaths involving Covid.

The concern is that this time period coincides with the rollout of vaccinations to this age group, who are known to be at an increased risk of myocarditis (heart inflammation), especially after the second dose.  Far from rushing to investigate these deaths as they have arisen, ONS has stated it intends to undertake that work ‘when more reliable data are available’.

The rollout of vaccinations in this age group was always controversial, with risks and benefits finely balanced, but the Chief Medical Officers overturned the original advice, not on health grounds but to ‘reduce disruption to schools’.  Any marginal benefit of vaccination for the young must be considered outweighed by even a marginal increase in mortality.  With the reduced risk from Omicron, and with increased risk from second doses, the balance will have tipped still further. _

Surely we should be stopping all vaccinations in younger people until it is proved 100% to be completely safe. As above, it's got a marginal health benefit to those ages and a vast majority will have already had it so I personally think it should be halted for the time being and certainly not gone any lower in age that we have already.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			A question for those who think that anyone who condones a return to normality is being selfish - at what point will you accept that Covid must become part of our lives?

It’s a serious question, and I’m genuinely interested to hear the replies. There *has *to be an end to mandated restrictions. I have nothing against those who want to continue to wear face coverings and social distance, but we can’t mandate restrictions indefinitely.

Do you have a figure in mind with regard to daily deaths, infections or hospital admissions? Because we can’t live our lives for ever more using the rather woolly rationale of “just in case”. People will continue to fall ill, with Covid, flu, pneumonia and other diseases. They will continue to die.

But we can’t continue to play sport in empty stadia, restrict foreign travel, make people feel guilty for attending social functions and so on, without some clear and defined scenario when that will end.

All I am really reading here in support of ongoing restrictions and caution is “what if” or “until more is known”. In other words, indefinitely. That’s not really a goer, is it?
		
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The mistake you are making is one that a lot of lockdown-skeptics make - they project the current measures "for ever". I must have missed the announcement that these measures were ever intended to last for ever. 

Reading played Luton last night, and the only reason the stadium was half or more empty was because it was freezing and Reading were playing crap and most of the fans correctly predicted they would get beaten again. Foreign travel is not particularily restricted in terms of leaving the UK, other countries may have inbound restrictions, and most of the people I see swanning round Tesco without a mask although they are required to wear one do not look in the slightest guilty. 

This notion of 'living with it' that is so glibly tossed around means that you are willing to accept that some people, not you, of course, will get Covid, and if they are older or unlucky may get pretty ill or die. Some people se the outcomes of Covid as either a mild cold for most or very rarely severe illness, but only in people who were probably going to kick it soon anyway. It is a bit more complicated than that. London Covid is much more common than death, well recognised and can be pretty severe, and subclinical (i.e initially unnoticed) inflammatory effects of all variants are increasingly recognised, including damage to liver, kidneys, brain, heart and lungs. 

In my opinion, the numbers have not fallen enough to just stop all the measures at once (the masks becoming voluntary is effectively stopping that). We run the risk of kicking those number back up. If numbers did show a sustained fall, I would pull back measures one by one. Covid passports first, work from home second and masks last. 

Because case numbers are now unreliable due to limits on tests, we should focus on hospitalisations. Hospitalisations were around 1000 a day through most of November and into mid-December, then climbed to 2000- 2500 in late Dec and early Jan. On 15th Jan, they were 1750. I would like to see them back at 1000 or less for a week before doing anything with public health measures.


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## DanFST (Jan 20, 2022)

Continental Europe has had covid passes, masks etc throughout the duration.

How has that worked for them since the initial wave?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Continental Europe has had covid passes, masks etc throughout the duration.

How has that worked for them since the initial wave?
		
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Their vaccination rates may have an influence.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Rather worrying figures from the ONS about the increased deaths in 15-19yr old males that is potentially linked to the vaccine.

_At the High Court on Thursday 13th January, the ONS (Office for National Statistics) confirmed that there has been a significant rise in the death rate for adolescent males over the last eight months, compared to the same time period of 2015-2019.  There have been at least *65* extra deaths in England and Wales,  though the figure may be higher due to reporting delays for coroners cases.  During the same time frame there were only 2 deaths involving Covid._

_The concern is that this time period coincides with the rollout of vaccinations to this age group, who are known to be at an increased risk of myocarditis (heart inflammation), especially after the second dose.  Far from rushing to investigate these deaths as they have arisen, ONS has stated it intends to undertake that work ‘when more reliable data are available’._

_The rollout of vaccinations in this age group was always controversial, with risks and benefits finely balanced, but the Chief Medical Officers overturned the original advice, not on health grounds but to ‘reduce disruption to schools’.  Any marginal benefit of vaccination for the young must be considered outweighed by even a marginal increase in mortality.  With the reduced risk from Omicron, and with increased risk from second doses, the balance will have tipped still further. _

Surely we should be stopping all vaccinations in younger people until it is proved 100% to be completely safe. As above, it's got a marginal health benefit to those ages and a vast majority will have already had it so I personally think it should be halted for the time being and certainly not gone any lower in age that we have already.
		
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What was the stated causes of death? A death in a teenager without an obvious cause will be a coroners case and need a PM. It is extremely unlikely that this excess is due to myocarditis. That High Court bit relates to a case brought by a bunch of vaccine skeptics, including a few alternative quacktitioners. At least one of the principals has been repeatedly proven to be utterly wrong with her theories.It seems to use the time-honoured method of carefully choosing an interval in order to amplify a statistical effect. Data varies from year to year, so if you time the comparison right, you can show stuff that actually means very little. Why didn't they include 2020 in their comparator, if they claim that Covid doesn't kill teens? 

I have taken a look at ONS 2021 weekly deaths and in the 10-14 and 15-19 age ranges, the numbers across the year (therefore including the period when vaccine was not available to teens, and the period they were, are remarkably similar. 

You can never prove a vaccine to be 100% safe. That is trying to prove a negative, the absence of any safety issues. Doctors and scientists don't talk about it being safe, they talk about the benefit-risk ratio.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Continental Europe has had covid passes, masks etc throughout the duration.

How has that worked for them since the initial wave?
		
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Better than the UK in most cases, in some dramatically so, even despite slower initial vaccination rates (although now mostly caught up).


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## road2ruin (Jan 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			What was the stated causes of death? A death in a teenager without an obvious cause will be a coroners case and need a PM. It is extremely unlikely that this excess is due to myocarditis. That High Court bit relates to a case brought by a bunch of vaccine skeptics, including a few alternative quacktitioners. At least one of the principals has been repeatedly proven to be utterly wrong with her theories.It seems to use the time-honoured method of carefully choosing an interval in order to amplify a statistical effect. Data varies from year to year, so if you time the comparison right, you can show stuff that actually means very little. Why didn't they include 2020 in their comparator, if they claim that Covid doesn't kill teens?

I have taken a look at ONS 2021 weekly deaths and in the 10-14 and 15-19 age ranges, the numbers across the year (therefore including the period when vaccine was not available to teens, and the period they were, are remarkably similar.

You can never prove a vaccine to be 100% safe. That is trying to prove a negative, the absence of any safety issues. Doctors and scientists don't talk about it being safe, they talk about the benefit-risk ratio.
		
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Agree that no vaccine is ever 100% safe however if the benefits are marginal surely you wait until it is safer than it is now. I know we've gone over this previously and have opposing views but it just strikes me that the benefit for these ages just isn't worth the risk at the moment. 

This is the Twitter feed of the Dr who also raised the issue. I know that you would be against the HART lot and I was aware of their opposing view to yours however that doesn't make them 100% incorrect. Why take the risk is all I am saying. 

Dr Clare Craig (not one of her impersonators) on Twitter: "The ONS have agreed there is a statistically significant increase in deaths in males aged 15-19 years. An open letter from 80+ scientists and medics calls for an urgent investigation into the cause. Did the ONS try and downplay the problem? https://t.co/fi1qfCutLs https://t.co/vtoxOYvzTZ" / Twitter


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			A question for those who think that anyone who condones a return to normality is being selfish - at what point will you accept that Covid must become part of our lives?

It’s a serious question, and I’m genuinely interested to hear the replies. There *has *to be an end to mandated restrictions. I have nothing against those who want to continue to wear face coverings and social distance, but we can’t mandate restrictions indefinitely.

Do you have a figure in mind with regard to daily deaths, infections or hospital admissions? Because we can’t live our lives for ever more using the rather woolly rationale of “just in case”. People will continue to fall ill, with Covid, flu, pneumonia and other diseases. They will continue to die.

But we can’t continue to play sport in empty stadia, restrict foreign travel, make people feel guilty for attending social functions and so on, without some clear and defined scenario when that will end.

All I am really reading here in support of ongoing restrictions and caution is “what if” or “until more is known”. In other words, indefinitely. That’s not really a goer, is it?
		
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The figure in mind is when we see deaths and hospitalisation rates reduced to manageable/acceptable  levels and were not there now.

I don't understand what this 'We need to live with it' society looks like.  Is it where we turn off the ventilators in hospitals, leave those seriously ill with Covid at home to fend for themselves so we can fill football stadiums and night clubs, is it where we decide who should live and who should die by age and vulnerability.

What is it you want to happen because I can't see what it is other than glib comments suggesting were a bit fed up with this so let's ignore it now.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Agree that no vaccine is ever 100% safe however if the benefits are marginal surely you wait until it is safer than it is now. I know we've gone over this previously and have opposing views but it just strikes me that the benefit for these ages just isn't worth the risk at the moment.

This is the Twitter feed of the Dr who also raised the issue. I know that you would be against the HART lot and I was aware of their opposing view to yours however that doesn't make them 100% incorrect. Why take the risk is all I am saying.

Dr Clare Craig (not one of her impersonators) on Twitter: "The ONS have agreed there is a statistically significant increase in deaths in males aged 15-19 years. An open letter from 80+ scientists and medics calls for an urgent investigation into the cause. Did the ONS try and downplay the problem? https://t.co/fi1qfCutLs https://t.co/vtoxOYvzTZ" / Twitter

Click to expand...

I didn't say the benefits were marginal for teenagers. I have boys in that age range myself. 

Clare Craig has been spectacularly wrong on all the major issues of this pandemic. 

She claimed there was no second wave, it was just false positive tests.  
She claimed that doctors were therefore incorrectly attributing deaths to Covid
She claimed that the people in hospital did not have Covid (she didn't say what they did have, though)
She claimed that half the population was already immune to Covid before the pandemic started.
She claimed the pandemic was over in 2020
All wrong. She should be ignored. She has been disavowed by her professional organisation, the RC Path, and I think she has been sacked by the NHS. 

I looked at the list of the 80 scientist and medics. They are an obscure bunch and apart from the 2 leading skeptics, I have only ever heard of 1 other. There are a few alternative medicine people in there who are neither scientist nor medics and variety of people with no apparent relevant expertise, e.g. plastic surgeon or physiotherapist.


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## bobmac (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Is it where we turn off the ventilators in hospitals, leave those seriously ill with Covid at home to fend for themselves so we can fill football stadiums and night clubs, is it where we decide who should live and who should die by age and vulnerability.
		
Click to expand...

Has anyone suggested we do any of that?
Of course not, what a lazy argument


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



*The mistake you are making is one that a lot of lockdown-skeptics make - they project the current measures "for ever".* I must have missed the announcement that these measures were ever intended to last for ever.

Reading played Luton last night, and the only reason the stadium was half or more empty was because it was freezing and Reading were playing crap and most of the fans correctly predicted they would get beaten again. Foreign travel is not particularily restricted in terms of leaving the UK, other countries may have inbound restrictions, and most of the people I see swanning round Tesco without a mask although they are required to wear one do not look in the slightest guilty.

This notion of 'living with it' that is so glibly tossed around means that you are willing to accept that some people, not you, of course, will get Covid, and if they are older or unlucky may get pretty ill or die. Some people se the outcomes of Covid as either a mild cold for most or very rarely severe illness, but only in people who were probably going to kick it soon anyway. It is a bit more complicated than that. London Covid is much more common than death, well recognised and can be pretty severe, and subclinical (i.e initially unnoticed) inflammatory effects of all variants are increasingly recognised, including damage to liver, kidneys, brain, heart and lungs.

In my opinion, the numbers have not fallen enough to just stop all the measures at once (the masks becoming voluntary is effectively stopping that). We run the risk of kicking those number back up. If numbers did show a sustained fall, I would pull back measures one by one. Covid passports first, work from home second and masks last.

Because case numbers are now unreliable due to limits on tests, we should focus on hospitalisations. Hospitalisations were around 1000 a day through most of November and into mid-December, then climbed to 2000- 2500 in late Dec and early Jan. On 15th Jan, they were 1750. I would like to see them back at 1000 or less for a week before doing anything with public health measures.
		
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Perhaps you’d point me in the direction of the post in which I predicted the current measures would last for ever? Or where I said I was sceptical regarding the need for lockdowns?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The figure in mind is when we see deaths and hospitalisation rates reduced to manageable/acceptable  levels and were not there now.

I don't understand what this 'We need to live with it' society looks like.  Is it where we turn off the ventilators in hospitals, leave those seriously ill with Covid at home to fend for themselves so we can fill football stadiums and night clubs, is it where we decide who should live and who should die by age and vulnerability.

What is it you want to happen because I can't see what it is other than glib comments suggesting were a bit fed up with this so let's ignore it now.
		
Click to expand...

what a desperately poor, dramatic response


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## RichA (Jan 20, 2022)

I see both sides.

MiL has effectively been shielding since March 2020 and continues to do so, to some extent. She has heart disease and COPD and a dose of COVID is probably only 50/50 survivable, even fully vaccinated. Going forward, that probably means that she and we just have to continue being extra careful and keep our fingers crossed. Having said that, her mental decline and related physical decline resulting from continued isolation over the last 2 years have done as much damage as a serious illness anyway.
She badly needs heart surgery, but it keeps being delayed by the knock on effects of COVID throughout the NHS. I'm sure there are many thousands of elderly or chronically sick people in similar situations.  

Meanwhile anyone who now develops a condition that's survivable if treated early might not get an early diagnosis, never mind an early treatment, due to 2 years of enforced tunnel vision. 

I just can't see that the decision on where to focus is as simple and binary as some suggest, on either side of the debate.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Perhaps you’d point me in the direction of the post in which I predicted the current measures would last for ever? Or where I said I was sceptical regarding the need for lockdowns?
		
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Is that it? Only responding to two words?

I didn't say you would 'predict', but you and others of a like mind often 'project' your dislike of measures which you bemoan can't be used 'for ever', even though nobody has suggested they should. You did it in the post I quoted. 

Ironically, people pushing back against stuff because they can't tolerate it 'for ever' have probably made them last longer than needed.


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



*The figure in mind is when we see deaths and hospitalisation rates reduced to manageable/acceptable  levels and were not there now.*

I don't understand what this 'We need to live with it' society looks like.  Is it where we turn off the ventilators in hospitals, leave those seriously ill with Covid at home to fend for themselves so we can fill football stadiums and night clubs, is it where we decide who should live and who should die by age and vulnerability.

What is it you want to happen because I can't see what it is other than glib comments suggesting were a bit fed up with this so let's ignore it now.
		
Click to expand...

I will stress at the outset that I certainly do not liken Covid to flu - far from it. But the number of daily deaths of those with Covid is not dissimilar to the number dying every day with flu during a typical winter, and it is this I am struggling with.

You say you want the number of deaths reduced to “acceptable” levels. That, in essence, means you want the Covid death toll to be lower than that attributed to flu before measures are eased. And yet the only measure we have to combat flu is an annual jab which is largely only given to the over 50’s and those who are clinically vulnerable.

It really does seem to me that we are becoming obsessed with Covid, and measures to prevent infections and deaths, whilst we are prepared to live with tens of thousands dying with flu. Why are we not bringing in stricter measures to combat flu? Or are flu deaths less important?

As for what I want to see? A response, and measures, that are proportionate to the ongoing threat and risk.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I will stress at the outset that I certainly do not liken Covid to flu - far from it. But the number of daily deaths of those with Covid is not dissimilar to the number dying every day with flu during a typical winter, and it is this I am struggling with.

You say you want the number of deaths reduced to “acceptable” levels. That, in essence, means you want the Covid death toll to be lower than that attributed to flu before measures are eased. And yet the only measure we have to combat flu is an annual jab which is largely only given to the over 50’s and those who are clinically vulnerable.

It really does seem to me that we are becoming obsessed with Covid, and measures to prevent infections and deaths, whilst we are prepared to live with tens of thousands dying with flu. Why are we not bringing in stricter measures to combat flu? Or are flu deaths less important?

*As for what I want to see? A response, and measures, that are proportionate to the ongoing threat and risk.*

Click to expand...

Cool. What is the ongoing threat and risk?


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## Billysboots (Jan 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Is that it? Only responding to two words?

I didn't say you would 'predict', but you and others of a like mind often 'project' your dislike of measures which you bemoan can't be used 'for ever', even though nobody has suggested they should. You did it in the post I quoted.

Ironically, people pushing back against stuff because they can't tolerate it 'for ever' have probably made them last longer than needed.
		
Click to expand...

I’m not going to engage any further, as the outcome is always the same, and you are already trying to lead the discussion down that path. I’ve said what I wanted to say and am not going to be goaded, yet again, into an exchange which will result in this thread being locked for the umpteenth time.


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## D-S (Jan 20, 2022)

Interesting split of booster uptake by religion, ethnicity, affluence and region.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484149220869353478


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## Lilyhawk (Jan 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			Interesting split of booster uptake by religion, ethnicity, affluence and region.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484149220869353478

Click to expand...

I find it fascinating that he chooses the word "inequality" for something which is free and available for everyone.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not going to engage any further, as the outcome is always the same, and you are already trying to lead the discussion down that path. I’ve said what I wanted to say and am not going to be goaded, yet again, into an exchange which will result in this thread being locked for the umpteenth time.
		
Click to expand...

Works for me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			what a desperately poor, dramatic response
		
Click to expand...

Is it though? I said last night how it seems we are nearing the end, but surely we must accept opinions on both sides, you yourself have been asking for measures to be lessened for nearly a year now, while SR thinks it’s too quick.

We hear and read statements about getting back to normal or living with it, sadly, I believe we’ll end up with a different normal, a normal some will not like or want to accept.


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			I find it fascinating that he chooses the word "inequality" for something which is free and available for everyone.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, there is ample access for all.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			With the lifting of all coronavirus containment measures on the immediate horizon we have no real idea how we are going to manage my brother-in-laws possibly very high vulnerability to infection given his blood cancer (multiple myeloma) and pretty shot immune system.

It’s all very well saying we have to live with the virus, which in time of course we will have to do, but there do still seem to be quite a number of questions not yet resolved about the virus and variants, and the risk they present to the vulnerable.  Unfortunately my BiLs condition is one of periodic and potentially quite serious relapse/recurrence so it is most likely not going to be the case of him recovering to a point he can just get on with living ‘as normal’…but we just don’t know…

OK it seems that the current main (Omicron) variant does not seem to present a great risk to the general vaccinated public, but for my BiL it feels he is probably going to have to be very careful about going out of the house and mixing with others, if he does mix at all, and we will have to be very aware of our own exposure to the virus as we do our best to provide him with the support he will therefore require.  Because given the pressures, he isn‘t going to get that much from the state unless the state recognises the specific needs of the most vulnerable in a ‘we need to learn to live with it’ environment.

Hopefully in the coming weeks we will learn more about how much his immune system will recover over the coming months, and how much risk the coronavirus is likely to present to him on an ongoing ‘for ever’ basis.

Meanwhile my wife and I have to work out how we support him (and as she is in the same house - my 91yr old mil) at the same time protect him from infection, and clearly that includes infection that we might pick up.  Noting the subject of this discussion, this uncertainty is all rather worrying for us.
		
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If you took Covid out of the equation you might find your BiL would have to isolate/be extra careful anyway. Covid isn’t the only issue with those who are vulnerable. Good luck and best wishes.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Continental Europe has had covid passes, masks etc throughout the duration.

How has that worked for them since the initial wave?
		
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Had Covid passes throughout the duration…? Passes here in Spain came in around the 20th Dec 2021 - hardly the duration.

The biggest successes/fire-breaks has been the quite draconian lockdowns.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Is it though? I said last night how it seems we are nearing the end, but surely we must accept opinions on both sides, you yourself have been asking for measures to be lessened for nearly a year now, while SR thinks it’s too quick.

We hear and read statements about getting back to normal or living with it, sadly, I believe we’ll end up with a different normal, a normal some will not like or want to accept.
		
Click to expand...

I have sympathy and understanding of caution (not drama), especially in the beginning of the covid journey that turned dramatically and quickly and was very worrying. But fast forward 2 years and a vacinated population, less deadly infection, natural imunity from infection etc etc. Omicrom is so infectious that i doubt wearing masks just in shops and transport will make a lot of difference going forward - hence, this and the other rules are not very effective at doing anything - and people are welcome to continue wearing masks if they are more comfortable doing so. Hence, to me, it is hard to make a logical, medeical, societal or financial reason for continuing with them because infection and further varients (hopefully no more deadly) are here to stay, at least for the next few years. So if not now then when? The new normal may very well be a different secenario from before for a small minority of the population - but legislation and rules will do nothing to change that. I think the public are ready for the end of these rules but i know there will be a relatively large minority of very vocal remoaners who will not. I worry about the severe economic damage caused for the next generation more than anything, given we are only at relatively bad seasonal flu death rates at the moment. Utility Bills could be 50% higher this next year, telco bills look like going up 10%, inflation in general is well over 5%, interest rates going up, government debt through 100% of GDP and servicing it will get a lot more expensive as interest rates rise, new 1.25% NI Health tax etc etc. Living standards are being are going to be squeezed like mad over the next couple of years. I am not saying that the current restrictions are a large squeeze on growth but they certainly dampen it and we need every ounce of it we can get. We need to go for big growth and quickly in the face of massive pressures - and that is not going to be easy


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I have sympathy and understanding of caution (not drama), especially in the beginning of the covid journey that turned dramatically and quickly and was very worrying. But fast forward 2 years and a vacinated population, less deadly infection, natural imunity from infection etc etc. Omicrom is so infectious that i doubt wearing masks just in shops and transport will make a lot of difference going forward - hence, this and the other rules are not very effective at doing anything - and people are welcome to continue wearing masks if they are more comfortable doing so. Hence, to me, it is hard to make a logical, medeical, societal or financial reason for continuing with them because infection and further varients (hopefully no more deadly) are here to stay, at least for the next few years. So if not now then when? The new normal may very well be a different secenario from before for a small minority of the population - but legislation and rules will do nothing to change that. I think the public are ready for the end of these rules but i know there will be a relatively large minority of very vocal remoaners who will not. *I worry about the severe economic damage caused for the next generation more than anything, given we are only at relatively bad seasonal flu death rates at the moment. Utility Bills could be 50% higher this next year, telco bills look like going up 10%, inflation in general is well over 5%, interest rates going up, government debt through 100% of GDP and servicing it will get a lot more expensive as interest rates rise, new 1.25% NI Health tax etc etc. *Living standards are being are going to be squeezed like mad over the next couple of years. I am not saying that the current restrictions are a large squeeze on growth but they certainly dampen it and we need every ounce of it we can get. We need to go for big growth and quickly in the face of massive pressures - and that is not going to be easy
		
Click to expand...

Paul. You and people like you caused much of that by impeding an effective public health response, and thus prolonging the damage. 

And when the dust settles, the biggest long term squeeze on growth will be ... you know what. I think you caused that too. 

Growing your way out of an economic crisis is the refuge of despair.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			...I worry about the severe economic damage caused for the next generation more than anything, given we are only at relatively bad seasonal flu death rates at the moment. Utility Bills could be 50% higher this next year, telco bills look like going up 10%, inflation in general is well over 5%...
		
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You can't blame every issue on Covid and the reaction to it. Utility Bill increases, for example, are because of increases earlier in the supply chain.
It might 'only be at bad seasonal Flu rate', but that's in addition to any seasonal Flu, not 'instead of'.
And while Omicron is relatively mild (though thousands have died from it) it's likely there'll be another variant discovered too.
While I welcome the reduction on controls, I'm dubious about the sensibility and sceptical about the timing.


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## Twire (Jan 20, 2022)

Can we keep politics out of the thread please...


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## D-S (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			You can't blame every issue on Covid and the reaction to it. Utility Bill increases, for example, are because of increases earlier in the supply chain.
It might 'only be at bad seasonal Flu rate', but that's in addition to any seasonal Flu, not 'instead of'.
And while Omicron is relatively mild (though thousands have died from it) it's likely there'll be another variant discovered too.
While I welcome the reduction on controls, I'm dubious about the sensibility and sceptical about the timing.
		
Click to expand...

Do you know what the seasonal flu rate is this year? I know it was very low last year but have heard nothing about it this year.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			Do you know what the seasonal flu rate is this year? I know it was very low last year but have heard nothing about it this year.
		
Click to expand...

Slightly higher than last year.
Available on the usual sites, e.g. https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...d-19-surveillance-reports-2021-to-2022-season


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I have sympathy and understanding of caution (not drama), especially in the beginning of the covid journey that turned dramatically and quickly and was very worrying. But fast forward 2 years and a vacinated population, less deadly infection, natural imunity from infection etc etc. Omicrom is so infectious that i doubt wearing masks just in shops and transport will make a lot of difference going forward - hence, this and the other rules are not very effective at doing anything - and people are welcome to continue wearing masks if they are more comfortable doing so. Hence, to me, it is hard to make a logical, medeical, societal or financial reason for continuing with them because infection and further varients (hopefully no more deadly) are here to stay, at least for the next few years. So if not now then when? The new normal may very well be a different secenario from before for a small minority of the population - but legislation and rules will do nothing to change that. I think the public are ready for the end of these rules but i know there will be a relatively large minority of very vocal remoaners who will not. I worry about the severe economic damage caused for the next generation more than anything, given we are only at relatively bad seasonal flu death rates at the moment. Utility Bills could be 50% higher this next year, telco bills look like going up 10%, inflation in general is well over 5%, interest rates going up, government debt through 100% of GDP and servicing it will get a lot more expensive as interest rates rise, new 1.25% NI Health tax etc etc. Living standards are being are going to be squeezed like mad over the next couple of years. I am not saying that the current restrictions are a large squeeze on growth but they certainly dampen it and we need every ounce of it we can get. We need to go for big growth and quickly in the face of massive pressures - and that is not going to be easy
		
Click to expand...

Sadly from my armchair I believe the economic damage will still be a factor for more than the next generation, but surely we need to go steady with repairing the economy as trying too fast too quickly could also be disatrous.

I hope I’m wrong, but I think we’ll be on and off the covid bus for the foreseeable future, the difference (I believe) with this and the flu is the long term effects and all ages being at risk, so maybe comparing it to the flu and how society treats it needs to be adressed.

My other thoughts move into the political arena, so unfortunately they’re out.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

bobmac said:



			As anyone suggested we do any of that?
Of course not, what a lazy argument  

Click to expand...

No, you're making a lazy argument by making that glib comment without explaining how my comments are wrong.

It has been suggested by some who want all restrictions removed, (including people infected isolating at all) and that Covid is no worse than seasonal flu, they don't consider it's on top of seasonal flu and how the NHS staff are absolutely worn out and demoralised by the pressures of dealing with Covid cases.  Is that a lazy argument?

If we are prepared to remove all these restrictions in the face of these unprecedented infection levels and the associated hospitalisations and deaths then how high could these cases rise.

We have also been told that the delays in treating people in need of hospitalisation are unacceptable and Covid is the cause of their delay, so what's the answer to that one, it can only be leaving those seriously ill with Covid to get on with it while freeing up services for others.   If that's not what's being suggested then tell me what is because without that explanation it's just lazy arguements.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Paul. You and people like you caused much of that by impeding an effective public health response, and thus prolonging the damage.

And when the dust settles, the biggest long term squeeze on growth will be ... you know what. I think you caused that too.

Growing your way out of an economic crisis is the refuge of despair.
		
Click to expand...

You sanctimonious xxx. "You and people.like you"! Stop harking on about the first month of the pandemic and thinking me and peple like me .. The medical profession was split at this time and that is the last I say on March 2020 that you keep harking on about. I am talking about now not 2 years ago and analysing the mistakes - and locking down too much is likely to be seen as much of a mistake as not locking down early enough at the start. You are a stuck record and lose all respect from the many really good/ informative insights from your massive chip-on-the-shoulder superior sniping.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			what a desperately poor, dramatic response
		
Click to expand...

Because it flies in the face of your 'Just live with it' response?


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## Ethan (Jan 20, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			You sanctimonious xxx. "You and people.like you"! Stop harking on about the first month of the pandemic and thinking me and peple like me .. The medical profession was split at this time and that is the last I say on March 2020 that you keep harking on about. I am talking about now not 2 years ago and analysing the mistakes - and locking down too much is likely to be seen as much of a mistake as not locking down early enough at the start. You are a stuck record and lose all respect from the many really good/ informative insights from your massive chip-on-the-shoulder superior sniping.
		
Click to expand...

It is not about the first month of the pandemic. It is about all of it, including now. The lesson that the public health response and economic response go hand in hand has been known for at least 100 years, and leading economists voiced the same point. Maybe not in the Torygraph, though, to be fair, where the opportunities for disaster capitalism were of greater interest. The clash between the two was a creation of certain [redacted] in constituencies like Wokingham, and the like. And the medical profession really wasn't split, the media loves skeptics and gives them too much publicity. 

Locking down too much was never going to be seen, in public health terms, as being as bad as not locking down enough. Pandemics are very asymmetrical.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			No, you're making a lazy argument by making that glib comment without explaining how my comments are wrong.

*It has been suggested by some who want all restrictions removed, (including people infected isolating at all) and that Covid is no worse than seasonal flu,* they don't consider it's on top of seasonal flu and how the NHS staff are absolutely worn out and demoralised by the pressures of dealing with Covid cases.  Is that a lazy argument?

If we are prepared to remove all these restrictions in the face of these unprecedented infection levels and the associated hospitalisations and deaths then how high could these cases rise.

We have also been told that the delays in treating people in need of hospitalisation are unacceptable and Covid is the cause of their delay, so what's the answer to that one, it can only be leaving those seriously ill with Covid to get on with it while freeing up services for others.   If that's not what's being suggested then tell me what is because without that explanation it's just lazy arguements.
		
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i don’t believe that’s what people are suggesting at all 

I see the suggestions that the country needs to move on to learn to live with it just like we do with the flu each year 

If people are at risk then they isolate , they wear masks , they don’t put themselves at risk 

My daughter hasn’t seen her grandparents for nearly 2 years now so we have all made sacrifices 

When masks stop being mandatory that doesn’t mean everyone must stop wearing masks - if people want to carry on wearing them then they can do 

If people want to avoid crowded places then they can do 

No one will be forced to do anything 

And then we have 8 weeks to see how it goes before end of March for when full restrictions are lifted in regards isolation periods - the NHS will be assessed as we go along 

its a light at the end of the tunnel that some need 

The cost of Covid is great for a lot of people and it’s time to take steps to help everyone move on and start to live the new normal life for everyone.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			i don’t believe that’s what people are suggesting at all

I see the suggestions that the country needs to move on to learn to live with it just like we do with the flu each year

If people are at risk then they isolate , they wear masks , they don’t put themselves at risk

My daughter hasn’t seen her grandparents for nearly 2 years now so we have all made sacrifices

When masks stop being mandatory that doesn’t mean everyone must stop wearing masks - if people want to carry on wearing them then they can do

If people want to avoid crowded places then they can do

No one will be forced to do anything

And then we have 8 weeks to see how it goes before end of March for when full restrictions are lifted in regards isolation periods - the NHS will be assessed as we go along

its a light at the end of the tunnel that some need

The cost of Covid is great for a lot of people and it’s time to take steps to help everyone move on and start to live the new normal life for everyone.
		
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Well said Phil.

Lifting a restriction, or most/all of them isn’t irreversible. On a personal level, we had this conversation earlier today. I don’t want 5 years of restriction. Taking 5 off what few healthy years I might have before I start dribbling and doddering isn’t for me. I’m sensible enough to manage my own risks whilst also still having an eye on my greater responsibility to society.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Well said Phil.

Lifting a restriction, or most/all of them isn’t irreversible. On a personal level, we had this conversation earlier today. I don’t want 5 years of restriction. Taking 5 off what few healthy years I might have before I start dribbling and doddering isn’t for me. I’m sensible enough to manage my own risks whilst also still having an eye on my greater responsibility to society.
		
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He’s wrong when he says we have to start living it just like we do with the flu each year!! It’s not like the flu, it’s a lot worse and has consequences we don’t yet fully understand.

I wholeheartedly agree we need to try to lift restrictions, but likening it, almost down playing it in comparing it to flu is dangerous.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			He’s wrong when he says we have to start living it just like we do with the flu each year!! It’s not like the flu, it’s a lot worse and has consequences we don’t yet fully understand.

I wholeheartedly agree we need to try to lift restrictions, but likening it, almost down playing it in comparing it to flu is dangerous.
		
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It’s not like the flu, and Phil didn’t say it’s like the flu, he said live with it like we do with the flu. Let’s come at it from a different tangent. What do we need to do to live with it? To a large extent, we just have to get on with living. We can adopt some personal measures if we see fit. We can accept that some things might be imposed upon us. Isn’t that living with it, being flexible to managing life with it?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Well said Phil.

Lifting a restriction, or most/all of them isn’t irreversible. On a personal level, we had this conversation earlier today. I don’t want 5 years of restriction. Taking 5 off what few healthy years I might have before I start dribbling and doddering isn’t for me. I’m sensible enough to manage my own risks whilst also still having an eye on my greater responsibility to society.
		
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With respect no one is suggesting five years of restrictions, all that some are saying is we wait for the time when things become more stable.  Current restrictions in the UK are minimal and don't really restrict people from having a social life and in no way are taking your life away from you.


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## D-S (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Slightly higher than last year.
Available on the usual sites, e.g. https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...d-19-surveillance-reports-2021-to-2022-season

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So really low then versus a ‘normal’ year.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			It’s not like the flu, and Phil didn’t say it’s like the flu, he said live with it like we do with the flu. Let’s come at it from a different tangent. What do we need to do to live with it? To a large extent, we just have to get on with living. We can adopt some personal measures if we see fit. We can accept that some things might be imposed upon us. Isn’t that living with it, being flexible to managing life with it?
		
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But it might be about us? We, as a society may have to take precautions for the foreseeable future because the impact covid may have on the NHS in the future.

Joe Average does nothing when living with flu, but they might have to think about their behaviour if they catch covid (even if they feel it’s no worse than the flu). How they could still spread it, simply saying you can wear a mask if you want doesn’t take in to account the ignorant who maybe positive and happy to go on with their “normal” life without thinking about the consequences of who they could pass it on to and the damage it could do.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			With respect no one is suggesting five years of restrictions, all that some are saying is we wait for the time when things become more stable.  Current restrictions in the UK are minimal and don't really restrict people from having a social life and in no way are taking your life away from you.
		
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Ok, for the hair splitters, I’ll make it simple. No more restrictions. I’ll continue to wear a mask. I’ll continue to avoid busy, indoor venues. And I’ll lift my, self-imposed restrictions when I’m comfortable with things. I’ll manage my risks.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			It’s not like the flu, and Phil didn’t say it’s like the flu, he said live with it like we do with the flu. Let’s come at it from a different tangent. What do we need to do to live with it? To a large extent, we just have to get on with living. We can adopt some personal measures if we see fit. We can accept that some things might be imposed upon us. Isn’t that living with it, being flexible to managing life with it?
		
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I've lived 73 years and never had the Flu, even though there have been no masks or social distancing for 71 of those years.  I'm pretty sure if I had lived the same lifestyle with Covid prevalent it would be a different story.  Also, we are often reminded that Covid is a much nastier virus than Flu so living with it is different.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've lived 73 years and never had the Flu, even though there have been no masks or social distancing for 71 of those years.  I'm pretty sure if I had lived the same lifestyle with Covid prevalent it would be a different story.  Also, we are often reminded that Covid is a much nastier virus than Flu.
		
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And if Covid had been around you’d have managed the risk. See post 24,713


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			And if Covid had been around you’d have managed the risk. See post 24,713
		
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But not in the same way as Flu as Phil is suggesting.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			With respect no one is suggesting five years of restrictions, all that some are saying is we wait for the time when things become more stable.  Current restrictions in the UK are minimal and don't really restrict people from having a social life and in no way are taking your life away from you.
		
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When is that time then ?

And the current restrictions are still having dramatic effects on multiple people

But if they are that minimal what extra affect will it have from removing them then ?

But if you are uncomfortable with that you can still follow those restrictions as you wish

we have now 8 weeks until full restrictions will be lifted - that’s plenty of time to keep assessing the situation as we go along

We need to recover as country mentally and financially- if you aren’t happy with that you can continue to lock yourself away and isolate when needed , use a mask etc

The removal of restrictions will be looked at to cover everyone in the UK - you need to look at others as well in this situation


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## williamalex1 (Jan 20, 2022)

I think relaxing the covid 19 regulations is being pushed too early in an attempt to cover up/bury bad news.
Please delete if too political.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

Maybe another way of looking at it is not telling those at risk or vulnerable to lock themselves away and we tell anyone who is positive to go home and lock themselves away instead.

As Former chairman of the UK's vaccine task force, Dr Clive Dix, said:

"What we should do is what we should do with any other infectious diseases. When it breaks out, say to people if you feel you have got the symptoms, go home stay at home until you feel better," he said.
"We do that with every other infectious disease and that's what this one will be like.
"It won't by then be a pandemic and a disease causing a huge amount of deaths.
"It will be a virus circulating in our community as many others do."

Surely legislation could be brought in to do this?

Got to be better than the “I’m alright jack” some are advocating!


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			So really low then versus a ‘normal’ year.
		
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Indeed. Far less transmission would be my thought - same as last year. Shows that the Covid policy was basically sound imo.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

williamalex1 said:



			I think relaxing the covid 19 regulations is being pushed too early in an attempt to cover up/bury bad news.
Please delete if too political.
		
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I disagree, Countries all over Europe are reviewing and relaxing their rules as well.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When is that time then ?
		
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Do you honestly expect me to answer that!   The only answer can be ' When the time is right' and hopefully that won't be too far away if we're sensible but not some arbitrary date plucked out the air.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe another way of looking at it is not telling those at risk or vulnerable to lock themselves away and we tell anyone who is positive to go home and lock themselves away instead.
...
		
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Unfortunately, 'at risk or vulnerable' means those who are likely to need to be hospitalised or/and die! So special treatment is needed for them, but for the 'healthy until infected' the above seems a reasonable approach.


pauldj42 said:



			......
As Former chairman of the UK's vaccine task force, Dr Clive Dix, said:

"What we should do is *what we should do with any other infectious diseases*. When it breaks out, say to people if you feel you have got the symptoms, go home stay at home until you feel better," he said.
"We do that with every other infectious disease and that's what this one will be like.
"It won't by then be a pandemic and a disease causing a huge amount of deaths.
"It will be a virus circulating in our community as many others do."

*Surely legislation could be brought in to do this?*
...
		
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Note that while he states 'should do with other...', that's not what happens. And it's not done because, imo, it's impossible to implement! Policing it properly would be impossible - as has been the case for Covid.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly expect me to answer that!   The only answer can be ' When the time is right' and hopefully that won't be too far away if we're sensible but not some arbitrary date plucked out the air.
		
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And what if they have decided they believe that end of March is the right time for all restrictions and next week is the right time for removing mandatory masks ?

Do you think that’s what they have done  “plucked out of the air” 

Is there not just the slight chance they have spoken to the medical experts and that’s the end date they are working towards ? 

millions have made a lot of sacrifices to protect the vunerable people in the UK for the last two years - at some point they need to allowed to live their lives again


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Unfortunately, 'at risk or vulnerable' means those who are likely to need to be hospitalised or/and die! So special treatment is needed for them, but for the 'healthy until infected' the above seems a reasonable approach.

Note that while he states 'should do with other...', that's not what happens. And it's not done because, imo, it's impossible to implement! Policing it properly would be impossible - as has been the case for Covid.
		
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So do nothing then? I’d suggest trying something is better than doing nothing.

If it stays as a notifiable disease then there is a starting point.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe another way of looking at it is not telling those at risk or vulnerable to lock themselves away and we tell anyone who is positive to go home and lock themselves away instead.

As Former chairman of the UK's vaccine task force, Dr Clive Dix, said:

"What we should do is what we should do with any other infectious diseases. When it breaks out, say to people if you feel you have got the symptoms, go home stay at home until you feel better," he said.
"We do that with every other infectious disease and that's what this one will be like.
"It won't by then be a pandemic and a disease causing a huge amount of deaths.
"It will be a virus circulating in our community as many others do."

Surely legislation could be brought in to do this?

Got to be better than the “I’m alright jack” some are advocating!
		
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Why not say both things? I don’t want to see anymore “you must do’s…” but I’d be happy with “should consider,” or “we advise…” Equally, make it a notifiable disease with a mandatory isolation requirement.

A number of things have changed. It isn’t as vicious as it was 22 months ago. A lot of people have been vaccinated. Time to wind things down, which is what’s happening.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Why not say both things? I don’t want to see anymore “you must do’s…” but I’d be happy with “should consider,” or “we advise…” Equally, make it a notifiable disease with a mandatory isolation requirement.

A number of things have changed. It isn’t as vicious as it was 22 months ago. A lot of people have been vaccinated. Time to wind things down, which is what’s happening.
		
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And I’ve said I agree with the winding down, just not stopping and “learning to live with it” or “getting back to normal” as some appear to be advocating, we don’t know what the new normal is, its not even about the vulnerable either, they probably take precautions for their illness’s as a matter of fact, it’s about protecting the healthy that think they are invincible.

The new normal could be exactly as you’ve put for the notifiable diseases, but you could bet some would not be happy with that.


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## D-S (Jan 20, 2022)

One reason I think it’s not ‘just the flu’ is that I and most if not everyone I know has had minimum 2 and almost all 3 vaccines in the past year, using the latest technology against flu. There are also antivirals introduced in hospitals. Fortunately, everyone I know who has contracted it has had very mild symptoms, none as bad as a dose of the flu.
I realise that it is a threat to the vulnerable and we will need to continue boosting and inventing new drugs as well as speed up vaccinations worldwide. We also need to skill up the NHS both in terms of infrastructure and manpower to cope in future (we should never have accepted suffering annual flu ‘crises’) and our ratios of doctors and nurses to population should be far closer to our economic equals, this will take time and a deal of money but let’s start now.
However, we do need to manage our way out of this and just saying keep restrictions until ‘the time is right’ is not a good enough answer given the current trajectory of the pandemic.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			...
If it stays as a notifiable disease then there is a starting point.
		
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Agreed.
Continue Vax development - as subsequent variants could well be resistant.
Somehow keep it away from kids!
The really important part continues to be...Protect hospitals from getting swamped with cases!


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## Tashyboy (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			And I’ve said I agree with the winding down, just not stopping and “learning to live with it” or “getting back to normal” as some appear to be advocating, we don’t know what the new normal is, its not even about the vulnerable either, they probably take precautions for their illness’s as a matter of fact, it’s about protecting the healthy that think they are invincible.

The new normal could be exactly as you’ve put for the notifiable diseases, but you could bet some would not be happy with that.
		
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Totally agree. With all of the above. If anyone thinks the new normal is the same as the old normal they need to give there heads a good shake. We are taught that we are to live with COVID . It’s not going away. But in what guise will it return. As weak as chip shop vinegar or as infectious as Omicron and as deadly as Delta or worse. Who knows. If the new norm means wearing a mask at times on public transport, Planes etc. is that really a great hardship. All I do know is that if the new norm is the same as the old then mine and Missis Ts parents are going to catch Covid. and I don’t fancy there chances.


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## Hobbit (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			And I’ve said I agree with the winding down, just not stopping and “learning to live with it” or “getting back to normal” as some appear to be advocating, we don’t know what the new normal is, its not even about the vulnerable either, they probably take precautions for their illness’s as a matter of fact, it’s about protecting the healthy that think they are invincible.

The new normal could be exactly as you’ve put for the notifiable diseases, but you could bet some would not be happy with that.
		
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Aren’t several of us actually guilty of splitting hairs here? You agree with winding down but not learning to live with it. Aren’t they the same thing? Or it could be argued that winding down is heading towards the old normal?

Gut feel, we’re all just arguing about the angle of the line through the ‘t,” or the distance of the dot above the ”i.”


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



*Aren’t several of us actually guilty of splitting hairs here?* You agree with winding down but not learning to live with it. Aren’t they the same thing? Or it could be argued that winding down is heading towards the old normal?

Gut feel, we’re all just arguing about the angle of the line through the ‘t,” or the distance of the dot above the ”i.”
		
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Not sure tbh Bri, some seem to be advocating a “stop” point, some of us are suggesting caution and not race to the “stop” point.

Strange how some never considered or mentioned a dual approach or protecting everyone until you commented on it.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 20, 2022)

I can't believe we're almost two years into this and there are some people that don't understand mask use. Those saying that the vulnerable should wear masks seem to not understand that the primary advantage of a mask is to protect other people rather than the person wearing it, unless it's an FFP3 mask or better. Is it really such a hardship to be asked to wear a mask for 20 minutes while shopping in a supermarket or for 5 minutes when popping in to a shop?


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And what if they have decided they believe that end of March is the right time for all restrictions and next week is the right time for removing mandatory masks ?

Do you think that’s what they have done  “plucked out of the air”

Is there not just the slight chance they have spoken to the medical experts and that’s the end date they are working towards ?

millions have made a lot of sacrifices to protect the vunerable people in the UK for the last two years - at some point they need to allowed to live their lives again
		
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When I say the times right I mean it's right from a medical point of view and the NHS are not left to face the consequences of political shenanigans. 

I repeat: we are giving up hardly anything at the moment and it's a real hardship to no one, we are simply using some sensible precautions in  helping to minimise the pressure on clinicians and the vulnerable.  


Is that too much to ask?


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Why not say both things? I don’t want to see anymore “you must do’s…” but I’d be happy with “should consider,” or “we advise…” Equally, make it a notifiable disease with a mandatory isolation requirement.
...
		
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Only issue I can see with the above is the very large number of drongos who will ignore sensible precautions and not get vaccinated, especially as symptoms are frequently not obvious, so covers 'normal' folk too. The transmission potential is such that significant numbers could be infected, even those vaccinated as has often happened up till now.
I'm not sure going totally back to normal in March is a great idea, though I'd love to see it work.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
millions have made a lot of sacrifices to protect the vunerable people in the UK for the last two years - at some point they need to allowed to live their lives again
		
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The consequences of getting it wrong could well mean those sacrifices have to be extended for significantly longer. I'm very dubious bout the timing of the announcement. Nothing about this scourge has been announced so far ahead, at least that I can remember!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			When I say the times right I mean it's right from a medical point of view and the NHS are not left to face the consequences of political shenanigans.

I repeat: we are giving up hardly anything at the moment and it's a real hardship to no one, we are simply using some sensible precautions in  helping to minimise the pressure on clinicians and the vulnerable. 


Is that too much to ask?
		
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Surely the experts will have been consulted 

If it’s “hardly” anything the removal of it isn’t too much to worry about then ? 

And it’s hardly anything from your point of view - that doesn’t mean it’s “hardly anything” from everyone else 

There will still be some level of isolation still in place - the country isnt jumping back to pre Covid next week 
If people want to keep on with their own precautions then they can but this will hopefully allow all areas to make the choice and allow the hospitality area to open back up fully to get going

There isn’t going to be a mass stampede and a big burning of masks - people are still going to use their common sense whilst they go about their day


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			people are still going to use their common sense whilst they go about their day
		
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Really. Same people that panic bought toilet rolls and petrol


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Surely the experts will have been consulted

If it’s “hardly” anything the removal of it isn’t too much to worry about then ?

And it’s hardly anything from your point of view - that doesn’t mean it’s “hardly anything” from everyone else

There will still be some level of isolation still in place - the country isnt jumping back to pre Covid next week
If people want to keep on with their own precautions then they can but this will hopefully allow all areas to make the choice and allow the hospitality area to open back up fully to get going

There isn’t going to be a mass stampede and a big burning of masks - people are still going to use their common sense whilst they go about their day
		
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When I say it's hardly anything I mean it's not putting people out a lot to do it, not that it's pointless so scrap it.

At this point in time we are not out of this in any shape or form and neither is the NHS, you seem to be ignoring that fact in your considerations.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			When I say it's hardly anything I mean it's not putting people out a lot to do it, not that it's pointless so scrap it.
		
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In your opinion it’s not putting people out. That doesn’t mean that’s true for everyone else in the country



			At this point in time we are not out of this in any shape or form and neither is the NHS, you seem to be ignoring that fact in your considerations.
		
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Fact or opinion ? 

The first thought has always been the NHS in the government’s thoughts so I have no doubt they are getting all the data from the actual people that matter in the NHS and seeing what the impact is and making their judgments from that 

It’s just as likely that we could well be through the worst ( and the levels of people passing away are still dropping) and on the way to a new normal life.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			...
It’s just as likely that we could well be through the worst ( and the levels of people passing away are still dropping) and on the way to a new normal life.
		
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At around 300 per day, that's still high!

New patient count is dropping, but at around 2000/day, it's still an enormous load on hospitals! The count of those in ventilated beds is coming down slowly too, but still around 700, which is a huge drag on NHS resources. As is the 18.5K 'normal' Covid cases!


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## D-S (Jan 20, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484275814468407296


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## SocketRocket (Jan 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			In your opinion it’s not putting people out. That doesn’t mean that’s true for everyone else in the country

Fact or opinion ?

The first thought has always been the NHS in the government’s thoughts so I have no doubt they are getting all the data from the actual people that matter in the NHS and seeing what the impact is and making their judgments from that

It’s just as likely that we could well be through the worst ( and the levels of people passing away are still dropping) and on the way to a new normal life.
		
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How much are the current restrictions putting people out, wearing a mask in a shop isn't asking much of you, if you are put out by it then you must be overtly sensitive and that's a fact not opinion.

I can't debate the politics of it with you on here but if you believe the only consideration being used to remove restrictions are for the NHS then you must be rather naive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 20, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			If you took Covid out of the equation you might find your BiL would have to isolate/be extra careful anyway. Covid isn’t the only issue with those who are vulnerable. Good luck and best wishes.
		
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Indeed.  But as we are going to be responsible for aspects of his care for some months, the prospect of me simply going to the supermarket; filling up with fuel, or going with my Mrs to a restaurant, when there will be many others, perhaps all, about unmasked and not bothering with social distancing does concern me.  It seems that with all restrictions lifted the chance of me picking it up becomes significant - especially with potentially so many being infectious - and then I pass it to my BiL.  Or maybe me and my Mrs have to become housebound with my BiL and MiL also...is that it?  So that others don't have to wear a mask or keep a bit apart?

With common viruses we know so much more about them; we know the risk they present to individuals with different vulnerabilities; we know how to treat and manage them - and with that body of knowledge built up over many decades individuals with vulnerabilities are advised and understand what they need to do to manage their lives.

I just feel and fear that at the moment there are too many unknowns about coronavirus, covid and long covid, and it's impact on the vulnerable, for ALL measures aimed at controlling the virus within the community to be lifted in the timescales outlined.  Of course in time, and maybe a relatively short time, they *will* all be lifted, but why ALL and why right now?

It is not a pleasant prospect.  Never mind the severely stretched NHS and all the knackered staff.


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## D-S (Jan 20, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed.  But as we are going to be responsible for aspects of his care for some months, the prospect of me simply going to the supermarket or indeed filling up with fuel when there will be others about unmasked and not bothering with social distancing does concern me.  It seems that with all restrictions lifted the chance of me picking it up becomes significant - especially with potentially so many being infectious. 

With common viruses we know so much more about them; we know the risk they present to individuals with different vulnerabilities; we know how to treat and manage them - and with that body of knowledge built up over many decades individuals with vulnerabilities are advised and understand what they need to do to manage their lives.

I just feel and fear that at the moment there are too many unknowns about coronavirus, covid and long covid, and it's impact on the vulnerable, for ALL measures aimed at controlling the virus within the community to be lifted in the timescales outlined.  Of course in time, and maybe a relatively short time, they *will* all be lifted, but why ALL and why right now?

It is not a pleasant prospect.
		
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It is not all measures right now, isolation for example is only scheduled to stop in over two months time.


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## larmen (Jan 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			It is not all measures right now, isolation for example is only scheduled to stop in over two months time.
		
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That’s the one thing that worries me. There will be plenty of people knowingly positive stepping onto full trains and tubes, sitting in cinemas and pubs, … .

Mask in shops, …, they are all wide enough and can be ventilated. But trains? We all got stuck in mucky trains in the summer before and swear doesn’t affect us long term, covid might.


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## Hobbit (Jan 21, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed.  But as we are going to be responsible for aspects of his care for some months, the prospect of me simply going to the supermarket; filling up with fuel, or going with my Mrs to a restaurant, when there will be many others, perhaps all, about unmasked and not bothering with social distancing does concern me.  It seems that with all restrictions lifted the chance of me picking it up becomes significant - especially with potentially so many being infectious - and then I pass it to my BiL.  Or maybe me and my Mrs have to become housebound with my BiL and MiL also...is that it?  So that others don't have to wear a mask or keep a bit apart?

With common viruses we know so much more about them; we know the risk they present to individuals with different vulnerabilities; we know how to treat and manage them - and with that body of knowledge built up over many decades individuals with vulnerabilities are advised and understand what they need to do to manage their lives.

I just feel and fear that at the moment there are too many unknowns about coronavirus, covid and long covid, and it's impact on the vulnerable, for ALL measures aimed at controlling the virus within the community to be lifted in the timescales outlined.  Of course in time, and maybe a relatively short time, they *will* all be lifted, but why ALL and why right now?

It is not a pleasant prospect.  Never mind the severely stretched NHS and all the knackered staff.
		
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Your BiL is eligible for a 4th jab now. Below is a link well worth a read.

https://bloodcancer.org.uk/support-for-you/coronavirus-covid-19/


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## Ethan (Jan 21, 2022)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484275814468407296

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That is a comment published in The Lancet, indeed a well respected medical journal, but not necessarily reflecting the editorial opinion of The Lancet. The author is a modeller, so has more in common with Neil Ferguson than Chris Whitty or JVT.

There is no great debate in medicine about whether Covid will become just another pathogen rivalling flu and others, or not - everyone agrees that will be the case, that immunity will become more complex and flexible, and that vaccines and treatments will become more sophisticated and effective and also will probably only be needed by more vulnerable people such as the elderly and immunocompromised.

The debate is really about whether that timepoint has already been reached, or whether it is to come in the short to medium term, and therefore whether immediate relaxation of measures, or a staged programme of cautious relaxation, is appropriate.


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## Rooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Urgh 2 out of my 4 kids have tested positive today. on the eve of the first weekend plans my wife and I have had for an age!! Very mild so far, fingers crossed it stays like that.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



*When I say it's hardly anything I mean it's not putting people out a lot to do it*, not that it's pointless so scrap it.

At this point in time we are not out of this in any shape or form and neither is the NHS, you seem to be ignoring that fact in your considerations.
		
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and by the inverse, the "hardly any measures/ inconvenience" are hardly containing infections and illness by very much given how this has ripped through society and all the non- masked interactions outside of shops and public transport


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 21, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Your BiL is eligible for a 4th jab now. Below is a link well worth a read.

https://bloodcancer.org.uk/support-for-you/coronavirus-covid-19/

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Thanks Bri - yes - and he's just received the invite.


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## Foxholer (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			and by the inverse, the "hardly any measures/ inconvenience" are hardly containing infections and illness by very much given how this has ripped through society and all the non- masked interactions outside of shops and public transport
		
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Well, that's a separate, although associated, issue. The inability of some folk to grasp the importance of such precautions.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 21, 2022)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484275814468407296

Click to expand...

I think this sums up the issues that current measures of mask wearing have limited impact and only really slow the innevitable. This also backs up the rolling back of measures that are coming. Hopefully the money saved from testing, tracing, isolating etc can be invested back in front line services, booster rollouts etc

Surprisingly, IHME models suggest that the *transmission intensity of omicron is so high that policy actions—eg, increasing mask use, expanding vaccination coverage in people who have not been vaccinated, or delivering third doses of COVID-19 vaccines—taken in the next weeks will have limited impact on the course of the omicron wave. *IHME estimates suggest that increasing use of masks to 80% of the population, for example, will only reduce cumulative infections over the next 4 months by 10%. Increasing COVID-19 vaccine boosters or vaccinating people who have not yet been vaccinated is unlikely to have any substantial impact on the omicron wave because by the time these interventions are scaled up the omicron wave will be largely over. Only in countries where the omicron wave has not yet started can expanding mask use in advance of the wave have a more substantial effect. *These interventions still work to protect individuals from COVID-19, but the speed of the omicron wave is so fast that policy actions will have little effect on its course globally in the next 4–6 weeks.* The omicron wave appears to crest in 3–5 weeks after the exponential increase in reported cases begins.

As of Jan 17, 2022, omicron waves were peaking in 25 countries in five WHO regions and in 19 states in the USA. It is expected that the omicron peak will occur in most countries between now and the second week of February, 2022.  *The latest omicron peaks are expected to come in the countries where the omicron wave has not yet started, such as in eastern Europe and southeast Asia. Actions to increase SARS-CoV-2 testing, for example, are likely to increase disruption by having more individuals excluded from work or school, but are unlikely to impact the course of the omicron wave.* *In the era of omicron, I believe that COVID-19 control strategies need to be reset.* Given the speed and intensity of the omicron wave, in my view efforts to contact trace seem to be futile.


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## Foxholer (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I think this sums up the issues that current measures of mask wearing have limited impact and only really slow the innevitable. This also backs up the rolling back of measures that are coming. Hopefully the money saved from testing, tracing, isolating etc can be invested back in front line services, booster rollouts etc

Surprisingly, IHME models suggest that the *transmission intensity of omicron is so high that policy actions—eg, increasing mask use, expanding vaccination coverage in people who have not been vaccinated, or delivering third doses of COVID-19 vaccines—taken in the next weeks will have limited impact on the course of the omicron wave. *IHME estimates suggest that increasing use of masks to 80% of the population, for example, will only reduce cumulative infections over the next 4 months by 10%. Increasing COVID-19 vaccine boosters or vaccinating people who have not yet been vaccinated is unlikely to have any substantial impact on the omicron wave because by the time these interventions are scaled up the omicron wave will be largely over. Only in countries where the omicron wave has not yet started can expanding mask use in advance of the wave have a more substantial effect. *These interventions still work to protect individuals from COVID-19, but the speed of the omicron wave is so fast that policy actions will have little effect on its course globally in the next 4–6 weeks.* The omicron wave appears to crest in 3–5 weeks after the exponential increase in reported cases begins.

As of Jan 17, 2022, omicron waves were peaking in 25 countries in five WHO regions and in 19 states in the USA. It is expected that the omicron peak will occur in most countries between now and the second week of February, 2022.  *The latest omicron peaks are expected to come in the countries where the omicron wave has not yet started, such as in eastern Europe and southeast Asia. Actions to increase SARS-CoV-2 testing, for example, are likely to increase disruption by having more individuals excluded from work or school, but are unlikely to impact the course of the omicron wave.* *In the era of omicron, I believe that COVID-19 control strategies need to be reset.* Given the speed and intensity of the omicron wave, in my view efforts to contact trace seem to be futile.
		
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You should identify/acknowledge your sources! They might not all be as reliable as The Lancet, and selective/incomplete quotes may be misleading!


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## PNWokingham (Jan 21, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			You should identify/acknowledge your sources! They might not all be as reliable as The Lancet, and selective/incomplete quotes may be misleading!
		
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i "should" have to.....

This is from the Lancet - same article i was replying to from DS


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## SaintHacker (Jan 21, 2022)

And then you get people like this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484300296453070849
🤦‍♂️🤬🤬


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## Ethan (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I think this sums up the issues that current measures of mask wearing have limited impact and only really slow the innevitable. This also backs up the rolling back of measures that are coming. Hopefully the money saved from testing, tracing, isolating etc can be invested back in front line services, booster rollouts etc

Surprisingly, IHME models suggest that the *transmission intensity of omicron is so high that policy actions—eg, increasing mask use, expanding vaccination coverage in people who have not been vaccinated, or delivering third doses of COVID-19 vaccines—taken in the next weeks will have limited impact on the course of the omicron wave. *IHME estimates suggest that increasing use of masks to 80% of the population, for example, will only reduce cumulative infections over the next 4 months by 10%. Increasing COVID-19 vaccine boosters or vaccinating people who have not yet been vaccinated is unlikely to have any substantial impact on the omicron wave because by the time these interventions are scaled up the omicron wave will be largely over. Only in countries where the omicron wave has not yet started can expanding mask use in advance of the wave have a more substantial effect. *These interventions still work to protect individuals from COVID-19, but the speed of the omicron wave is so fast that policy actions will have little effect on its course globally in the next 4–6 weeks.* The omicron wave appears to crest in 3–5 weeks after the exponential increase in reported cases begins.

As of Jan 17, 2022, omicron waves were peaking in 25 countries in five WHO regions and in 19 states in the USA. It is expected that the omicron peak will occur in most countries between now and the second week of February, 2022.  *The latest omicron peaks are expected to come in the countries where the omicron wave has not yet started, such as in eastern Europe and southeast Asia. Actions to increase SARS-CoV-2 testing, for example, are likely to increase disruption by having more individuals excluded from work or school, but are unlikely to impact the course of the omicron wave.* *In the era of omicron, I believe that COVID-19 control strategies need to be reset.* Given the speed and intensity of the omicron wave, in my view efforts to contact trace seem to be futile.
		
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That author was a modeller, by the way. He is relying on contemporaneous deaths and hospitalisations for his conclusions. That may be an underestimate of what Omicron can do. Covid has two aspects - the respiratory component, and the inflammatory component. There is no doubt that the respiratory component is much milder than previous variants, but data is emerging on subclinical inflammatory complications (damage to kidneys and liver, for example) of previous variants and it is not at all clear the same does not happen with Omicron, because it may not be proportional to the respiratory effects.  

I agree that efforts to contact trace have been hopeless, and very expensively so, in Covid. It wasn't helped by the insane decision taken early on not to test close contacts of known cases. Decent contact tracing helps, though. The next variant may or may not be as apparently mild (although it may have a sting in the tail) or transmissible as Covid. There is no evolutionary pressure on it to get milder, because it transmits before it causes symptoms. 

Public health measures have worked. Social distancing has reduced transition of previous variants (and flu). Masks have never been claimed to be a panacea, but they do make a contribution, both to the wearer and others. Some aspects, for example outdoors exposure should have little restriction, but indoors need some care still. 

I also agree that mass testing is no longer helpful. Targeted testing or testing for cause should be enough. The rest is for PR purposes.


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## Beezerk (Jan 21, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			And then you get people like this


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484300296453070849
🤦‍♂️🤬🤬
		
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Must have been sniffing bread that lot 🥖


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## Ethan (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i "should" have to.....

This is from the Lancet - same article i was replying to from DS
		
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It is indeed, although it is a comment piece and not an editorial or "official" Lancet position.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I think this sums up the issues that current measures of mask wearing have limited impact and only really slow the innevitable. This also backs up the rolling back of measures that are coming. Hopefully the money saved from testing, tracing, isolating etc can be invested back in front line services, booster rollouts etc

Surprisingly, IHME models suggest that the *transmission intensity of omicron is so high that policy actions—eg, increasing mask use, expanding vaccination coverage in people who have not been vaccinated, or delivering third doses of COVID-19 vaccines—taken in the next weeks will have limited impact on the course of the omicron wave. *IHME estimates suggest that increasing use of masks to 80% of the population, for example, will only reduce cumulative infections over the next 4 months by 10%. Increasing COVID-19 vaccine boosters or vaccinating people who have not yet been vaccinated is unlikely to have any substantial impact on the omicron wave because by the time these interventions are scaled up the omicron wave will be largely over. Only in countries where the omicron wave has not yet started can expanding mask use in advance of the wave have a more substantial effect. *These interventions still work to protect individuals from COVID-19, but the speed of the omicron wave is so fast that policy actions will have little effect on its course globally in the next 4–6 weeks.* The omicron wave appears to crest in 3–5 weeks after the exponential increase in reported cases begins.

As of Jan 17, 2022, omicron waves were peaking in 25 countries in five WHO regions and in 19 states in the USA. It is expected that the omicron peak will occur in most countries between now and the second week of February, 2022.  *The latest omicron peaks are expected to come in the countries where the omicron wave has not yet started, such as in eastern Europe and southeast Asia. Actions to increase SARS-CoV-2 testing, for example, are likely to increase disruption by having more individuals excluded from work or school, but are unlikely to impact the course of the omicron wave.* *In the era of omicron, I believe that COVID-19 control strategies need to be reset.* Given the speed and intensity of the omicron wave, in my view efforts to contact trace seem to be futile.
		
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You seem to be trying very hard to convince yourself.


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## DanFST (Jan 21, 2022)

So you wear a mask on a train to get to work, Then unmask and mingle with everyone. Maybe then you go to for a drink after, with no mask. 

I'm not quite sure what result the quarter arsed measures are supposed to achieve.


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## Hobbit (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I think this sums up the issues that current measures of mask wearing have limited impact and only really slow the innevitable. This also backs up the rolling back of measures that are coming. Hopefully the money saved from testing, tracing, isolating etc can be invested back in front line services, booster rollouts etc

Surprisingly, IHME models suggest that the *transmission intensity of omicron is so high that policy actions—eg, increasing mask use, expanding vaccination coverage in people who have not been vaccinated, or delivering third doses of COVID-19 vaccines—taken in the next weeks will have limited impact on the course of the omicron wave. *IHME estimates suggest that increasing use of masks to 80% of the population, for example, will only reduce cumulative infections over the next 4 months by 10%. Increasing COVID-19 vaccine boosters or vaccinating people who have not yet been vaccinated is unlikely to have any substantial impact on the omicron wave because by the time these interventions are scaled up the omicron wave will be largely over. Only in countries where the omicron wave has not yet started can expanding mask use in advance of the wave have a more substantial effect. *These interventions still work to protect individuals from COVID-19, but the speed of the omicron wave is so fast that policy actions will have little effect on its course globally in the next 4–6 weeks.* The omicron wave appears to crest in 3–5 weeks after the exponential increase in reported cases begins.

As of Jan 17, 2022, omicron waves were peaking in 25 countries in five WHO regions and in 19 states in the USA. It is expected that the omicron peak will occur in most countries between now and the second week of February, 2022.  *The latest omicron peaks are expected to come in the countries where the omicron wave has not yet started, such as in eastern Europe and southeast Asia. Actions to increase SARS-CoV-2 testing, for example, are likely to increase disruption by having more individuals excluded from work or school, but are unlikely to impact the course of the omicron wave.* *In the era of omicron, I believe that COVID-19 control strategies need to be reset.* Given the speed and intensity of the omicron wave, in my view efforts to contact trace seem to be futile.
		
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If it reduces infections by 10%, maybe the same figure applies to deaths. As a percentage, 10% sounds small but 10% of 100,000 deaths is *10,000 people. If that number can be reduced by applying the restrictions it’s a no brainer.*

I used the word people rather than deaths to personalise it. It’s people not just deaths, people. 

That aside, I think it’s a poor argument to use Omicron as the reason to write it off as impossible to do anything with.  Delta is still out there in significant numbers and is still far more vicious.

I feel you’re only arguing from the economic perspective. There has to middle ground between your total relaxation and any draconian measures still being considered.


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## Ethan (Jan 21, 2022)

DanFST said:



			So you wear a mask on a train to get to work, Then unmask and mingle with everyone. Maybe then you go to for a drink after, with no mask.

I'm not quite sure what result the quarter arsed measures are supposed to achieve.
		
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Depends on the environment. Public transport is very enclosed, your work may not. There is also a risk exposure aspect. Running across the motorway wearing a blindfold is inadvisable, but you are less likely to get run over doing it once than doing it twice. Quarter arsed is better than no arsed, in other words.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to be trying very hard to convince yourself.
		
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i don't need to convince myself - it is what i believe. If things change i may change my views


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## PNWokingham (Jan 21, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			If it reduces infections by 10%, maybe the same figure applies to deaths. As a percentage, 10% sounds small but 10% of 100,000 deaths is *10,000 people. If that number can be reduced by applying the restrictions it’s a no brainer.*

I used the word people rather than deaths to personalise it. It’s people not just deaths, people.

That aside, I think it’s a poor argument to use Omicron as the reason to write it off as impossible to do anything with.  Delta is still out there in significant numbers and is still far more vicious.

I feel you’re only arguing from the economic perspective. There has to middle ground between your total relaxation and any draconian measures still being considered.
		
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i think that 10% guess is refering to the newt few weeks but reading the rest of the comments and how it talks that policy measures in countries where it has not taken off yet will only delay things - so i would not take that to be 10% less deaths. Just one view - was more intereted in the core message of it that policy measure are of limited use


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## RichA (Jan 21, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			If it reduces infections by 10%, maybe the same figure applies to deaths. As a percentage, 10% sounds small but 10% of 100,000 deaths is *10,000 people. If that number can be reduced by applying the restrictions it’s a no brainer.*

I used the word people rather than deaths to personalise it. It’s people not just deaths, people. 

That aside, I think it’s a poor argument to use Omicron as the reason to write it off as impossible to do anything with.  Delta is still out there in significant numbers and is still far more vicious.

I feel you’re only arguing from the economic perspective. There has to middle ground between your total relaxation and any draconian measures still being considered.
		
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Also 10% fewer hospital admissions, presumably resulting in an increased number of patients on waiting lists getting treated for other conditions.


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## Hobbit (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i think that 10% guess is refering to the newt few weeks but reading the rest of the comments and how it talks that policy measures in countries where it has not taken off yet will only delay things - so i would not take that to be 10% less deaths. Just one view - was more intereted in the core message of it that policy measure are of limited use
		
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Next few weeks in this country. All measures will work to a greater or lesser extent in each country. And by not helping to resolve issues globally, variants can rebound back into the U.K. with added potency.

But the article is right, if masks are mandated too late it’s a waste of time. But here’s a thought, mandate them now and being too late isn’t an issue.

I find the binary argument applied by so many to be counterproductive. Surely a balance between 100% restrictions and 0% restrictions would balance economics ‘v’ value of lives.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i don't need to convince myself - it is what i believe. If things change i may change my views
		
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If you're convinced then why keep posting it. Or do you have a need to convince others.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If you're convinced then why keep posting it. Or do you have a need to convince others.
		
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??. Why bother posting. It is a discussion! And you keep posting....


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## SocketRocket (Jan 21, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			??. Why bother posting. It is a discussion! And you keep posting....
		
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Yes I do and in general it's in response to posters like yourself who keep telling us there's nothing to be concerned about and how we just need to get on with it.


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## Foxholer (Jan 21, 2022)

....


SocketRocket said:



			If you're convinced then why keep posting it. Or do you have a need to convince others.
		
Click to expand...




PNWokingham said:



			??. Why bother posting. It is a discussion! And you keep posting....
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Yes I do and in general it's in response to posters like yourself who keep telling us there's nothing to be concerned about and how we just need to get on with it.
		
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'Six all; Tiebreaker'!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			....



'Six all; Tiebreaker'!
		
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Thanks Ref but we're OK. Honestly....


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## Billysboots (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes I do and in general it's in response to posters like yourself who keep telling us there's nothing to be concerned about and how we just need to get on with it.
		
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To be fair, I’m not sure anyone is saying there is nothing to be concerned about. I’m certainly not.

But equally I do think that Covid is no longer the terrifying disease which first emerged in late 2019/early 2020. A lot has been learned about the virus, how to treat it and, indeed, how to prevent it. And it seems undeniable now that it is no longer as severe as it once was.

There are an awful lot of people, here and elsewhere, who seem to be struggling to keep things in perspective. And I do wonder how much this is to do with the press and media scaremongering, which has been so prevalent throughout the pandemic.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			To be fair, I’m not sure anyone is saying there is nothing to be concerned about. I’m certainly not.

But equally I do think that Covid is no longer the terrifying disease which first emerged in late 2019/early 2020. A lot has been learned about the virus, how to treat it and, indeed, how to prevent it. And it seems undeniable now that it is no longer as severe as it once was.

There are an awful lot of people, here and elsewhere, who seem to be struggling to keep things in perspective. And I do wonder how much this is to do with the press and media scaremongering, which has been so prevalent throughout the pandemic.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t believe there is anyone on here that views Covid in the same way they did 12 or 24 months ago, I’m not sure how you can say they seem to be struggling to keep things in perspective, people have been affected in different ways, ie, had covid once or twice, lost loved ones, struggled mentally or financially or even had very little impact on their lives, whatever they’ve gone through everyone agrees on getting back to some sort of new normal, it is purely the timescale that has different opinions.

Some of those on here who appear to be quite blase about the situation could be asked if they’ve took to much notice of the facebook/twitter covid experts during the pandemic and have difficulty seperating fact from fiction.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2022)

Twitter thread on whether Covid will become like the cold or not

Plot spoiler - it may not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1484811524246024194


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

We all want to get back to a normal way of life, does anyone believe people want this horrible situation to continue a day longer than necessary

What some are saying is that we need to remove restrictions carefully and not in a way that has the potential to create new surges in infections/deaths/NHS collapse.

At this time we are not in a lockdown situation, the rules we have to abide by are not Draconian so the public aren't being asked much of.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 22, 2022)

Personally I need to focus on the positives in restrictions being lifted. I'm working this week in a primary school and then on Thursday is the funeral of a friend who died from Covid. I'm trying not to stress about both things in terms of "what if I get it" and "what if I spread it". I'll take precautions in terms of face mask, sanitising and social distancing where possible but will try not to get so anxious about the possible outcomes. It's just not healthy or sustainable.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 22, 2022)

Does anyone know if you need to have had the booster to travel to Spain?
Or is double jabbed enough?


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## Billysboots (Jan 22, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



*I don’t believe there is anyone on here that views Covid in the same way they did 12 or 24 months ago*, I’m not sure how you can say they seem to be struggling to keep things in perspective, people have been affected in different ways, ie, had covid once or twice, lost loved ones, struggled mentally or financially or even had very little impact on their lives, whatever they’ve gone through everyone agrees on getting back to some sort of new normal, it is purely the timescale that has different opinions.

Some of those on here who appear to be quite blase about the situation could be asked if they’ve took to much notice of the facebook/twitter covid experts during the pandemic and have difficulty seperating fact from fiction.
		
Click to expand...

Really? I’m not going to trawl back through every post on this thread, or indeed others where the issue of Covid has been raised, but there are contributors here who won’t go to a pub, restaurant, cinema, football match and so on, because they are terrified to venture out.

Whilst absolutely acknowledging that some have really good grounds for keeping themselves out of harms way, equally there are others who really are being ultra cautious when they perhaps have little valid reason. How do I know this? Not least because I was one of those people. I believed what I read, saw and heard and, because I have a mild underlying condition I was absolutely terrified Covid would kill me. Yes, seriously.

I accept everyone has their own stance on what is right for them, but maintain that too many are really struggling to view the general threat posed by Covid, as well as the threat to them personally, in any sort of perspective. Recent weeks have seen around 100k reported infections every day. They are the ones we know about, and clearly the true figure is way, way higher. And yet the deaths WITH Covid are a fraction of that. A tiny fraction.

In two years I have only come across one person who has lost someone known to them as a result of Covid. That’s despite working in an organisation which employed around 6,000 staff. None of my social contacts knows anyone, or knows anyone who knows anyone, who has lost someone because of Covid. That does not dismiss the fact that there have been Covid related deaths, but when you consider there will be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, just like me then maybe you can start to see why I start to question perspective. Less than 1% of those known to have been infected with Covid in the U.K. have died _with _it. The true percentage of those actually infected with Covid who have died _because _of it will be far less. That is undeniable.

So maybe, just maybe, the decision makers are right to start easing restrictions. And maybe, in a couple of months, they will be right to relax the requirement to self isolate. There can’t be many people left who either haven’t had Covid, or aren’t fully vaccinated. A good number fall into both categories.

So I repeat the question I raised a day or so ago. To those who think the relaxation of restrictions is happening too quickly, just how long do you want to retain them? I wholeheartedly agree the restrictions are not onerous but that is not the point. My point is how long do you think we should retain them?

If those sections of the press/media who have peddled their scaremongering articles for two years dipped into this forum at times, they really would be rubbing their hands in smug satisfaction at what they have achieved.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Really? I’m not going to trawl back through every post on this thread, or indeed others where the issue of Covid has been raised, but there are contributors here who won’t go to a pub, restaurant, cinema, football match and so on, because *they are terrified to venture out.*

Whilst absolutely acknowledging that some have really good grounds for keeping themselves out of harms way, equally there are others who really are being ultra cautious when they perhaps have little valid reason. How do I know this? Not least because I was one of those people. I believed what I read, saw and heard and, because I have a mild underlying condition I was absolutely terrified Covid would kill me. Yes, seriously.

I accept everyone has their own stance on what is right for them, but maintain that too many are really struggling to view the general threat posed by Covid, as well as the threat to them personally, in any sort of perspective. Recent weeks have seen around 100k reported infections every day. They are the ones we know about, and clearly the true figure is way, way higher. And yet the deaths WITH Covid are a fraction of that. A tiny fraction.

In two years I have only come across one person who has lost someone known to them as a result of Covid. That’s despite working in an organisation which employed around 6,000 staff. None of my social contacts knows anyone, or knows anyone who knows anyone, who has lost someone because of Covid. That does not dismiss the fact that there have been Covid related deaths, but when you consider there will be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, just like me then maybe you can start to see why I start to question perspective. Less than 1% of those known to have been infected with Covid in the U.K. have died _with _it. The true percentage of those actually infected with Covid who have died _because _of it will be far less. That is undeniable.

So maybe, just maybe, the decision makers are right to start easing restrictions. And maybe, in a couple of months, they will be right to relax the requirement to self isolate. There can’t be many people left who either haven’t had Covid, or aren’t fully vaccinated. A good number fall into both categories.

So I repeat the question I raised a day or so ago. To those who think the relaxation of restrictions is happening too quickly, just how long do you want to retain them? I wholeheartedly agree the restrictions are not onerous but that is not the point. My point is how long do you think we should retain them?

If those sections of the press/media who have peddled their scaremongering articles for two years dipped into this forum at times, they really would be rubbing their hands in smug satisfaction at what they have achieved.
		
Click to expand...

I will be going to see the Select Car Leasing Stadium this afternoon to watch Reading slump to yet another ignominious defeat (at the hands of the hated Huddersfield). I am more terrified that we will get some more injuries and further deplete our virtually non-existent forward line, and fall further into the relegation zone than I am of catching Covid, but I am still going to try not to catch Covid. On the way, I will drive and will put my seatbelt on in the car. I guess that means i am terrified of smashing my face into the windscreen, and to be fair, I would rather not do that, even though it is quite unlikely. 

But it seems I need to say it again. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT DEATHS! A stay in the ICU, A stay in the ICU, the hospital, a week in your own bed with borderline hypoxia, long Covid, subclinical damage that later mean you need dialysis, killing your granny etc etc are all to be avoided. 

A lot of hope is invested in the idea that Omicron is mild and is Covid's last hurrah. Neither one might really be true. On your question on when relaxation should occur, I answered PNW some posts ago to say when hospitalisations fall below 1000, and I would keep masks even then for a bit longer. Numbers may kick up again when WFH stops. 

Language that refers to people who advise caution as scaremongering and those who follow it as terrified is neither helpful not accurate.


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## Billysboots (Jan 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I will be going to see the Select Car Leasing Stadium this afternoon to watch Reading slump to yet another ignominious defeat (at the hands of the hated Huddersfield). I am more terrified that we will get some more injuries and further deplete our virtually non-existent forward line, and fall further into the relegation zone than I am of catching Covid, but I am still going to try not to catch Covid. On the way, I will drive and will put my seatbelt on in the car. I guess that means i am terrified of smashing my face into the windscreen, and to be fair, I would rather not do that, even though it is quite unlikely.

But it seems I need to say it again. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT DEATHS! A stay in the ICU, A stay in the ICU, the hospital, a week in your own bed with borderline hypoxia, long Covid, subclinical damage that later mean you need dialysis, killing your granny etc etc are all to be avoided. 

A lot of hope is invested in the idea that Omicron is mild and is Covid's last hurrah. Neither one might really be true. On your question on when relaxation should occur, I answered PNW some posts ago to say when hospitalisations fall below 1000, and I would keep masks even then for a bit longer. Numbers may kick up again when WFH stops. 

Language that refers to people who advise caution as scaremongering and those who follow it as terrified is neither helpful not accurate. 

Click to expand...

Again, I agree with much of what you say. Apart from hating Huddersfield, obviously.

I never want to catch an illness. I much prefer good health. And I’m in absolutely no rush to wind up in ICU, I assure you. Please be reassured that I am in no way dismissive of those who have suffered directly because of this awful virus, either those who have fallen ill or died, their friends and loved ones, or those in the NHS who have worked so hard. Nobody will ever forget the awful TV images which appeared on our screens in the spring of 2020.

But we are no longer in the spring of 2020. We have moved on. As of yesterday there were fewer than 700 in ICU. The virus is still with us, but there is no denying it has evolved, as has the way we treat and prevent it.

What hasn’t evolved in too many cases is our view of it, and what it means, both in general and to us as individuals. A bit more perspective is required.

EDIT: And certain sections of the press haven’t been advising caution. They’ve been scaremongering, pure and simple, and I hope at some point they will be censured for their behaviour.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			To be fair, I’m not sure anyone is saying there is nothing to be concerned about. I’m certainly not.

But equally I do think that Covid is no longer the terrifying disease which first emerged in late 2019/early 2020. A lot has been learned about the virus, how to treat it and, indeed, how to prevent it. And it seems undeniable now that it is no longer as severe as it once was.

There are an awful lot of people, here and elsewhere, who seem to be struggling to keep things in perspective. And I do wonder how much this is to do with the press and media scaremongering, which has been so prevalent throughout the pandemic.
		
Click to expand...

The pandemic is over. And the world is now divided into those that know it and those that don’t want to know it.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jan 22, 2022)

I will continue to take precautions and wear my mask when inside anywhere other than my own home, and whilst i accept CV19 is diminishing in potency and it's lethal nature, I don't think the rapid removal of measures being taken is anything other than a diversion for certain actions of others.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 22, 2022)

Bunkermagnet said:



			I will continue to take precautions and wear my mask when inside anywhere other than my own home, and whilst i accept CV19 is diminishing in potency and it's lethal nature, *I don't think the rapid removal of measures being taken is anything other than a diversion for certain actions of others.*

Click to expand...

And the reason the rest of Europe is opening up? All part of the diversion? 

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/01/17/what-s-the-latest-on-european-travel-restrictions


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			And the reason the rest of Europe is opening up? All part of the diversion?

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/01/17/what-s-the-latest-on-european-travel-restrictions

Click to expand...

Do you call that 'Opening up'. Most countries have more controls than the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			The pandemic is over. And the world is now divided into those that know it and those that don’t want to know it.
		
Click to expand...

And those trying too hard to convince themselves.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Really? I’m not going to trawl back through every post on this thread, or indeed others where the issue of Covid has been raised, but there are contributors here who won’t go to a pub, restaurant, cinema, football match and so on, because they are terrified to venture out.

Whilst absolutely acknowledging that some have really good grounds for keeping themselves out of harms way, equally there are others who really are being ultra cautious when they perhaps have little valid reason. How do I know this? Not least because I was one of those people. I believed what I read, saw and heard and, because I have a mild underlying condition I was absolutely terrified Covid would kill me. Yes, seriously.

I accept everyone has their own stance on what is right for them, but maintain that too many are really struggling to view the general threat posed by Covid, as well as the threat to them personally, in any sort of perspective. Recent weeks have seen around 100k reported infections every day. They are the ones we know about, and clearly the true figure is way, way higher. And yet the deaths WITH Covid are a fraction of that. A tiny fraction.

In two years I have only come across one person who has lost someone known to them as a result of Covid. That’s despite working in an organisation which employed around 6,000 staff. None of my social contacts knows anyone, or knows anyone who knows anyone, who has lost someone because of Covid. That does not dismiss the fact that there have been Covid related deaths, but when you consider there will be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, just like me then maybe you can start to see why I start to question perspective. Less than 1% of those known to have been infected with Covid in the U.K. have died _with _it. The true percentage of those actually infected with Covid who have died _because _of it will be far less. That is undeniable.

So maybe, just maybe, the decision makers are right to start easing restrictions. And maybe, in a couple of months, they will be right to relax the requirement to self isolate. There can’t be many people left who either haven’t had Covid, or aren’t fully vaccinated. A good number fall into both categories.

So I repeat the question I raised a day or so ago. To those who think the relaxation of restrictions is happening too quickly, just how long do you want to retain them? I wholeheartedly agree the restrictions are not onerous but that is not the point. My point is how long do you think we should retain them?

If those sections of the press/media who have peddled their scaremongering articles for two years dipped into this forum at times, they really would be rubbing their hands in smug satisfaction at what they have achieved.
		
Click to expand...

How many of the 6,000 are your social contacts.  By your comments you appear to be suggesting the deaths are insignificant due to you not knowing anyone who's died, these deaths are real people, not just a number on the BBC evening news, they had loved ones who will be distraught by their loss.  A lot of people died through strokes and sepsis in the last year but because I didn't know any of them it doesn't diminish the fact.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 22, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Does anyone know if you need to have had the booster to travel to Spain?
Or is double jabbed enough?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain/entry-requirements

According to this two jabs is enough.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Again, I agree with much of what you say. Apart from hating Huddersfield, obviously.

I never want to catch an illness. I much prefer good health. And I’m in absolutely no rush to wind up in ICU, I assure you. Please be reassured that I am in no way dismissive of those who have suffered directly because of this awful virus, either those who have fallen ill or died, their friends and loved ones, or those in the NHS who have worked so hard. Nobody will ever forget the awful TV images which appeared on our screens in the spring of 2020.

But we are no longer in the spring of 2020. We have moved on. As of yesterday there were fewer than 700 in ICU. The virus is still with us, but there is no denying it has evolved, as has the way we treat and prevent it.

What hasn’t evolved in too many cases is our view of it, and what it means, both in general and to us as individuals. A bit more perspective is required.

EDIT: And certain sections of the press haven’t been advising caution. They’ve been scaremongering, pure and simple, and I hope at some point they will be censured for their behaviour.
		
Click to expand...

The first big occasion I took the kids to was the Reading - Huddersfield play off final in 2017. Cost a packet and we were leading 3-1 on penalties as Hudde4rsielf stepped up for thei 3rd, and we then lost 4-3. I really blame the Reading players who missed, but have chosen to transfer that onto Huddersfield.

In the Covid world, the new normal will be much like the old normal, but with a degree more caution for a while.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes I do and in general it's in response to posters like yourself who keep telling us there's nothing to be concerned about and how we just need to get on with it.
		
Click to expand...

Usually in response to people like you who want to lock us away for ever. Covid is going nowhere fast. I never say there is nothing to be concerned about. I am in favour of ending the current restrictions over the coming weeks, like what is actually happening and believe it is the right course of action given the full balance of risks of covid death and other exonomic, medical and societal factors. You can still lock yourself away, mask up or do as you wish and other people can do what they want


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## Billysboots (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			How many of the 6,000 are your social contacts.  By your comments you appear to be suggesting the deaths are insignificant due to you not knowing anyone who's died, these deaths are real people, not just a number on the BBC evening news, they had loved ones who will be distraught by their loss.  A lot of people died through strokes and sepsis in the last year but because I didn't know any of them it doesn't diminish the fact.
		
Click to expand...

You quite clearly need to read post #24782, which explicitly sets out the fact that I am in no way dismissing the impact this virus may have had on others. Far from it. 

My point was that, directly or indirectly, I know thousands of people through my former employment and socially, and only know of one person who has lost someone to Covid. 

It is that which gives me my perspective on the virus. A perspective which appears to be supported by both the daily figures, and the easing of restrictions.


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## Billysboots (Jan 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The first big occasion I took the kids to was the Reading - Huddersfield play off final in 2017. Cost a packet and we were leading 3-1 on penalties as Hudde4rsielf stepped up for thei 3rd, and we then lost 4-3. I really blame the Reading players who missed, but have chosen to transfer that onto Huddersfield.

*In the Covid world, the new normal will be much like the old normal, but with a degree more caution for a while.*

Click to expand...

I have no problem with people exercising whatever caution they feel is required to keep themselves safe and well. But we are fast approaching the time when the caution exercised will be a matter of personal choice rather than a diktat.

Enjoy (endure?) the football.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			And those trying too hard to convince themselves.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for corroborating my post.👍


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## Imurg (Jan 22, 2022)

Knowing the DVSA as I do it wouldn't surprise me if there's a continuation of wearing masks during driving tests for some time yet..
The kids ( and us)have had to wear them since we came back from lockdown last April...even through the Summer 
So if they need to wear them for test we, effectively, will have to wear them for lessons so they're used to wearing one...
Either way, we won't find out until the night before at best....probably not until a couple of days after.....


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## Beedee (Jan 22, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Does anyone know if you need to have had the booster to travel to Spain?
Or is double jabbed enough?
		
Click to expand...

From the local rag's website
https://www.gloucestershirelive.co....3ifbbpi2s-m92PejhXLG-k3Y1gEuNoj4V8tJLD9GbApg4
From 1st Feb, 2 jabs more than 9  months ago must be boosted.


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/spain/entry-requirements

According to this two jabs is enough.
		
Click to expand...

Knowing my luck they’ll move the goal 
posts just before I go.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 22, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			Knowing my luck they’ll move the goal
posts just before I go.
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha. Not got your booster lined up? That solves everything. 

Where are you going? Always like thinking about sunny and warm places in January 😄🏖


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 22, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. Not got your booster lined up? That solves everything.

Where are you going? Always like thinking about sunny and warm places in January 😄🏖
		
Click to expand...

I’m not bothered about having my booster tbh.
Going golfing near Alicante in March


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Thank you for corroborating my post.👍
		
Click to expand...

Do you mean the trite part of it.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			You quite clearly need to read post #24782, which explicitly sets out the fact that I am in no way dismissing the impact this virus may have had on others. Far from it.

My point was that, directly or indirectly, I know thousands of people through my former employment and socially, and only know of one person who has lost someone to Covid.

It is that which gives me my perspective on the virus. A perspective which appears to be supported by both the daily figures, and the easing of restrictions.
		
Click to expand...

If you consider the number of deaths from Covid over the last month it's not far off the number of people you know socially and through your previous employment.


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## Billysboots (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If you consider the number of deaths from Covid over the last month it's not far off the number of people you know socially and through your previous employment.
		
Click to expand...

You are completely missing my point, and I’m not going to keep trying to spell it out.


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## Ethan (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Enjoy (endure?) the football.
		
Click to expand...

3-3 at half-time!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			You are completely missing my point, and I’m not going to keep trying to spell it out.
		
Click to expand...

I do get your point, it's just that I think it trivialises the Covid deaths and has the potential to easily throw away the improving situation by scrapping sensible restrictions too quickly.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Usually in response to people like you who want to lock us away for ever.
		
Click to expand...

Who suggested anyone wants to lock us away for *EVER.*.

That kind of argument is what is becoming the normal exaggerated response to anyone suggesting a cautious approach to removing restrictions.


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## Billysboots (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I do get your point, it's just that I think it trivialises the Covid deaths and has the potential to easily throw away the improving situation by scraping sensible restrictions too quickly.
		
Click to expand...

Have you even read #24782? I am not trivialising Covid at all. Far from it.


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## bobmac (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Who suggested anyone wants to lock us away for *EVER.*.

That kind of argument is what is becoming* the normal exaggerated response* to anyone suggesting a cautious approach to removing restrictions.
		
Click to expand...

You mean like your exaggerated response?



SocketRocket said:



			I don't understand what this 'We need to live with it' society looks like. * Is it where we turn off the ventilators in hospitals, leave those seriously ill with Covid at home to fend for themselves so we can fill football stadiums and night clubs, is it where we decide who should live and who should die by age and vulnerability.*

Click to expand...

We get it, you think the easing of restrictions is happening too soon, others disagree.
Repeating yourself over and over again isn't going to change anyone's mind.
I'd suggest if you've nothing new to say you move on.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You mean like your exaggerated response?



We get it, you think the easing of restrictions is happening too soon, others disagree.
Repeating yourself over and over again isn't going to change anyone's mind.
I'd suggest if you've nothing new to say you move on.
		
Click to expand...

It has been a discussion. You have decided to join it by saying to an individual he shouldn't be posting in it.  Rather hypocritical.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 22, 2022)

Well it’s just getting like the political threads now 

There is not one single right answer that will satisfy everyone and people better placed than any of us will make what they think is the best decision for as many people as possible


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## pauljames87 (Jan 22, 2022)

We have been very (no real other word for it) lucky with covid so far. There is no real other way to put it.. as we limited much we could etc etc like everyone else but to date (touch wood) we haven't had it.. or anyone in our support network have it.. few scares where people get pinged and get a PCR .. but nothing yet 

However this week my sister and her husband tested positive , fingers crossed she's alright as she was worried a lot before as asthmatic

Also this week on Wednesday I think it was the wife worked with someone who's since tested positive. 2 hours in same class so she been told to LFT every day for 7 days 

Let's hope it stays at that. However bearing in mind we both work (me throughout and wife since she went back from maternity in sept) and eldest has been through pre school and nursery so far pretty much fine 

Lucky is defo the word 

Let's hope the covid dodging  game stays first class ..


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## Golfmmad (Jan 22, 2022)

Pin-seeker said:



			I’m not bothered about having my booster tbh.
Going golfing near Alicante in March
		
Click to expand...

Where's that, La Manga? 😉


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## bobmac (Jan 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It has been a discussion. You have decided to join it by saying to an individual* he shouldn't be posting in it*.  Rather hypocritical.
		
Click to expand...

That is N*OT* what I said and you know it.
I SUGGESTED if you had nothing new to say you move on.
We all know what you think and merely repeating yourself isn't adding to the discussion.


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## Foxholer (Jan 22, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			...
However this week my sister and her husband tested positive , fingers crossed she's alright as *she was worried a lot before as asthmatic*

Click to expand...

Mum and her sister were both asthmatics. The aunt died within a couple of hours of getting Hong Kong Flu many years ago. Mum always tried to stay as calm as she could because 'worry' exacerbated her symptoms.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 22, 2022)

bobmac said:



			That is N*OT* what I said and you know it.
I SUGGESTED if you had nothing new to say you move on.
We all know what you think and merely repeating yourself isn't adding to the discussion.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should move on as you've got nothing to add.  I've been commenting on the subject and replying to posts. You on the other hand...


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## drdel (Jan 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			3-3 at half-time!
		
Click to expand...

I think it will go to penalties...


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## SaintHacker (Jan 23, 2022)

Daughter and wife now both positive, first time either of us has caught it since the whole thing kicked off (that we know of) Daughter is virtually asymptomatic, mrs just has a heavy cold. I'm still showing negative at the moment but i'm guessing that won't be for long...


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Daughter and wife now both positive, first time either of us has caught it since the whole thing kicked off (that we know of) Daughter is virtually asymptomatic, mrs just has a heavy cold. I'm still showing negative at the moment but i'm guessing that won't be for long...
		
Click to expand...

It was frustrating when me and Missis T caught it both times. We kept to the rules but still caught it. I had said to Missis T that we would catch it what with kids at school, back and forwards between parents and us. Daughter being a copper. Son a class one driver. Who brought it home both times. As crap as it was, it was what it was. Hope all ends up well..


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2022)

Jacinda Ardern once more setting a fantastic example in leading her countries fight against COVID.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 23, 2022)

I can only assume that is a wind-up comment.   She is an absolute joke.


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Jacinda Ardern once more setting a fantastic example in leading her countries fight against COVID.
		
Click to expand...

I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. The population are building up no natural immunity whatsoever.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. The population are building up no natural immunity whatsoever.
		
Click to expand...

Am not sure what there vaccination rates are. What I am impressed with is there resolution to stick to there route out of it. Whether one agrees with it or not Is a different matter all together.

Be genuinely interested to hear Ethan’s thoughts on the New Zealand thought process.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I can only assume that is a wind-up comment.   She is an absolute joke.
		
Click to expand...

but again I would like to know why 👍


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. The population are building up no natural immunity whatsoever.
		
Click to expand...

Natural immunity means natural deaths and natural ICU cases unless it is built on top of a very comprehensive immunisation programme.

Ardern has seen only a handful of Covid deaths, and her economy has suffered less and bounced back faster than the UK. She shows that effective suppression of Covid was possible and that effective public health measures help the economy, not hinder it. In my opinion, she has done a stunning job. Wish we had had her over here.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 23, 2022)

Is it possible to compare the two countries though, given the huge differences in demographic? The entire population of NZ is just over half that of London alone


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## Tashyboy (Jan 23, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Is it possible to compare the two countries though, given the huge differences in demographic? The entire population of NZ is just over half that of London alone
		
Click to expand...

Totally agree but I think thee maybe a genuine difference in people mentality as well


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Is it possible to compare the two countries though, given the huge differences in demographic? The entire population of NZ is just over half that of London alone
		
Click to expand...

It is clearly not a perfect comparison, but the real difference was not in geography or demography but in [redacted] philosophy and leadership. People here are happy to compare Sweden, so why not NZ. Australia has also done a much better job for similar reasons.


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Natural immunity means natural deaths and natural ICU cases unless it is built on top of a very comprehensive immunisation programme.

Ardern has seen only a handful of Covid deaths, and her economy has suffered less and bounced back faster than the UK. She shows that effective suppression of Covid was possible and that effective public health measures help the economy, not hinder it. In my opinion, she has done a stunning job. Wish we had had her over here.
		
Click to expand...

My curiosity stems, I suppose, from my assumption that, in the longer term, a combination of a good vaccination programme and immunity built up from community infection gives the best long term protection.

Disregarding how the U.K. and New Zealand have chosen to approach the management of the pandemic, from this point on which population is likely to have the best protection against Covid? I’m genuinely interested.


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			My curiosity stems, I suppose, from my assumption that, in the longer term, a combination of a good vaccination programme and immunity built up from community infection gives the best long term protection.

Disregarding how the U.K. and New Zealand have chosen to approach the management of the pandemic, from this point on which population is likely to have the best protection against Covid? I’m genuinely interested.
		
Click to expand...

We don't know. A lot depends on the background previous exposure and immunity and future exposure. People in NZ may have been exposed to a different flavour of coronavirus previously, with more Asian elements. But the way to build it is to get the vax in first, then accept some inevitable community exposure to supplement the immune profile. 

Natural immunity, though, is often used by anti-vaxxers to cover either imaginary immunity because their T-cells are good God-fearing T-cells, or as a result of various vitamins and supplements. Quite a few proponents of both aspects have thought twice while in ICU.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. The population are building up no natural immunity whatsoever.
		
Click to expand...

Agree. Total over reaction. 14 day isolation if positive and an extra 10 for family members, making 24 even without having it!


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. *The population are building up* *no natural immunity* whatsoever.
		
Click to expand...

That's not the NZ goal! Because of the geographical situation, they have taken a different approach. Preventing the virus getting into the country in the first place and preventing the spread if/when it does being the top priorities. Check their 'Deaths per Million population' and 'Cases per million population' stats to see how that has been more successful than UK's - who could never have adopted that policy.

Immunity via vaccination works better than risking death to obtain 'natural immunity'!

Btw. Same applies to Australia!


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I can only assume that is a wind-up comment.   She is an absolute joke.
		
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Please explain why!


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That's not the NZ goal! Because of the geographical situation, they have taken a different approach. Preventing the virus getting into the country in the first place and preventing the spread if/when it does being the top priorities. Check their 'Deaths per Million population' and 'Cases per million population' stats to see how that has been more successful than UK's - who could never have adopted that policy.

Immunity via vaccination works better than risking death to obtain 'natural immunity'!

Btw. Same applies to Australia!
		
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But I’m still not convinced that they aren’t merely delaying the inevitable. As borders are opened up, and people are allowed to move more freely between countries, then surely countries such as NZ will see an increase in community transmission, in a community with limited exposure thus far.

The layman in me thinks, wrongly no doubt, that is a recipe for trouble.


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## ColchesterFC (Jan 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			We don't know. A lot depends on the background previous exposure and immunity and future exposure. People in NZ may have been exposed to a different flavour of coronavirus previously, with more Asian elements. *But the way to build it is to get the vax in first, then accept some inevitable community exposure to supplement the immune profile.*

Natural immunity, though, is often used by anti-vaxxers to cover either imaginary immunity because their T-cells are good God-fearing T-cells, or as a result of various vitamins and supplements. Quite a few proponents of both aspects have thought twice while in ICU.
		
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So in my case, having had both original jabs, then getting Covid and subsequently having had the booster jab I should be about as protected as I can get right now? <--- with the obvious disclaimer of me receiving any future recommended boosters


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But I’m still not convinced that they aren’t merely delaying the inevitable. As borders are opened up, and people are allowed to move more freely between countries, then surely countries such as NZ will see an increase in community transmission, in a community with limited exposure thus far.

The layman in me thinks, wrongly no doubt, that is a recipe for trouble.
		
Click to expand...

Adequate/current vaccination is, and will continue to be a requirement of entry to any country. NZ and Aus, because of their 'island' status are in a much better position than UK to enforce that and avoid infection from outside - at borders. Djokovic's folly was an example!

Vaccination is NZ's approach to prevention.

Worth realising that, outside of the lockdowns, NZ activity has been 'as normal' compared to the 2 years or so of  restrictions imposed on UK!!


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## pauljames87 (Jan 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It is clearly not a perfect comparison, but the real difference was not in geography or demography but in [redacted] philosophy and leadership. People here are happy to compare Sweden, so why not NZ. Australia has also done a much better job for similar reasons.
		
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Problem we have is economical. Our economy is heavily reliant on traveling. 

NZ and Oz a little different even tho I agree handled better


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Agree. Total over reaction. 14 day isolation if positive and an extra 10 for family members, making 24 even without having it!
		
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Yet their economy has suffered less and bounced back quicker? An area you have been quite vocal about in the way the UK has responded!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. The population are building up no natural immunity whatsoever.
		
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We already know your views on Covid restrictions, why are you repeating them 😉


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 23, 2022)

She will not be happy until she has turned New Zealand into North Korea with better scenery.  Total and utter control freak.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Problem we have is economical. Our economy is heavily reliant on traveling.

NZ and Oz a little different even tho I agree handled better
		
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Oh, the one issue I should have mentioned....

Tourism has been a significant to NZ's economy. That has been all but eliminated and won't even begin to recover until April - even then, with major restrictions.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			She will not be happy until she has turned New Zealand into North Korea with better scenery.  Total and utter control freak.
		
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Utter twaddle!


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			We already know your views on Covid restrictions, why are you repeating them 😉
		
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I’m talking about the response in New Zealand. The conversation has moved on, and we’ve all slept since yesterday. 😉


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## IanM (Jan 23, 2022)

If someone wants to compare NZ and the UK's Covid responses, it is a bit like comparing crime in Inner London and Shirenewton and deducing that the police in Shirenewton are more effective.


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			She will not be happy until she has turned New Zealand into North Korea with better scenery.  Total and utter control freak.
		
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So she has kept their deaths per million at 10 (UK is 2,247)
Got rid of assault rifles in a month.
Won her last election with a landslide.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 23, 2022)

IanM said:



			If someone wants to compare NZ and the UK's Covid responses, it is a bit like comparing crime in Inner London and Shirenewton and deducing that the police in Shirenewton are more effective. 

Click to expand...

They're always busy in Midsomer.


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Problem we have is economical. Our economy is heavily reliant on traveling.

NZ and Oz a little different even tho I agree handled better
		
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You can't travel when there is nowhere to travel to, or when people travelling in from them poses an unacceptable risk.


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			She will not be happy until she has turned New Zealand into North Korea with better scenery.  Total and utter control freak.
		
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That is an utterly deranged comment. You should stay away from sharp objects for a while. Some nice men in white coats jackets will be visiting shortly.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Utter twaddle!
		
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She’s a complete control freak…….


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415550405728161794


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

Mask study in German schools

Pre-print just published. Short version - masks reduce secondary transmission in schools to both students (by 30%) and teachers (by 24%).


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			She’s a complete control freak…….


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415550405728161794

Click to expand...

She's asking people to listen to the science, not Facebook.
I've got no problem with that


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## Fade and Die (Jan 23, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So she has kept their deaths per million at 10 (UK is 2,247)
Got rid of assault rifles in a month.
Won her last election with a landslide.
		
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In an act straight out of Big Brother she has also banned smoking, now I’m not a fan of smoking at all. I hate it, but I believe people should be free to choose there vice. What next, Fast food, Alcohol, Coffee or meat?


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			We already know your views on Covid restrictions, why are you repeating them 😉
		
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I have no problem with someone applying their own attitudes consistenctly to other situations/countries.
Though I believe the differences are such that the NZ and Aus are the right approach - for them!
If anything, I have more of an issue with folk being inconsistent, or those trying to suppress posters!
Oh and those who post twaddle!


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			In an act straight out of Big Brother she has also banned smoking, now I’m not a fan of smoking at all. I hate it, but I believe people should be free to choose there vice. What next, Fast food, Alcohol, Coffee or meat?
		
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She hasn't banned smoking.

_New Zealand has been a pioneer. It has banned cigarette adverts and smoking in most public places. Now it is going further. On December 9th the government laid out measures “to make New Zealand smokefree”. From 2024 it will reduce the number of shops allowed to sell cigarettes. The following year, it will lower the amount of nicotine permissible in cigarettes. And most far-reaching of all, from 2027 it will make it illegal to sell cigarettes to anybody born after 2008. Such people will never be allowed to buy tobacco legally. Only Bhutan, which bans tobacco for everyone, has a stricter policy.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2...-smoking-for-the-next-generation-is-misguided_


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			She’s a complete control freak…….


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415550405728161794

Click to expand...

Why take any notice of someone in England, whose feed is also full of conspiracy theories, commenting on another Country?

Some on here would be frothing at the mouth if a foreigner, in another Country, made derogatory comments about our PM.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			She’s a complete control freak…….


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415550405728161794

Click to expand...

That's not control-freakery to me.
Pooh-pooing exaggerated claims from an obviously (to me) biased external and (probably) unidentifiable source seems the right thing to do.

FWIW. Spofforth is a very active anti-lockdown campaigner. Her Twitter account has been suspended (and reinstated), so not an 'unbiased' voice.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			...
Some on here would be frothing at the mouth if a foreigner, in another Country, made derogatory comments about our PM.
		
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While others would be lapping it up because they have the same attitudes! But that's allowed in a democracy, in spite of what the likes of the Daily Mail and The Telegraph would prefer!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			To be fair, I’m not sure anyone is saying there is nothing to be concerned about. I’m certainly not.

But equally I do think that Covid is no longer the terrifying disease which first emerged in late 2019/early 2020. A lot has been learned about the virus, how to treat it and, indeed, how to prevent it. And it seems undeniable now that it is no longer as severe as it once was.

There are an awful lot of people, here and elsewhere, who seem to be struggling to keep things in perspective. And I do wonder how much this is to do with the press and media scaremongering, which has been so prevalent throughout the pandemic.
		
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Why is it no longer the terrifying...........etc?

Frankly, for  you it clearly isn't, because you've had it -twice, I think?, and found it not too bad.  That's good ....for you.

But how have things changed for myself and my wife , in late seventies, who have not had it?
We don't know how we will fare, do we?  We could be in the category of those, despite being triple jabbed, who still succumb to it.?

As we don't know we prefer not to try it to find out sooner rather than later


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			To be fair, I’m not sure anyone is saying there is nothing to be concerned about. I’m certainly not.

But equally I do think that Covid is no longer the terrifying disease which first emerged in late 2019/early 2020. A lot has been learned about the virus, how to treat it and, indeed, how to prevent it. And it seems undeniable now that it is no longer as severe as it once was.

There are an awful lot of people, here and elsewhere, who seem to be struggling to keep things in perspective. And I do wonder how much this is to do with the press and media scaremongering, which has been so prevalent throughout the pandemic.
		
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Apparently, you've had Covid twice.
Are you vaccinated?


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Why is it no longer the terrifying...........etc?

Frankly, for  you it clearly isn't, because you've had it -twice, I think?, and found it not too bad.  That's good ....for you.

*But how have things changed for myself and my wife , in late seventies, who have not had it?*
We don't know how we will fare, do we?  We could be in the category of those, despite being triple jabbed, who still succumb to it.?

As we don't know we prefer not to try it to find out sooner rather than later
		
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The biggest change since the spring of 2020 has to be the vaccination programme, which I think even the bigger sceptics agree has lessened the severity of the virus in those who catch it. Add to that a better understanding of how to treat Covid in a hospital environment and the result of mutations, and in general I think most agree that the virus should not terrify us to the extent it did.

I absolutely accept there will be exceptions to that, especially amongst the clinically vulnerable, but I am talking in general terms. 

I’m not sure if you saw a quote I posted a few weeks ago from an ICU nurse. In her experience, she said those aged over 60 in ICU with Covid who were fully vaccinated were almost all immunosuppressed. In other words, and again in her experience, if you are over 60, fully vaccinated and with a strong immune system, you are unlikely to find yourself in ICU with Covid. I would hope that gives you the confidence to not be as frightened of the virus as most were when it first struck.


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Apparently, you've had Covid twice.
Are you vaccinated?
		
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The first bout was the spring of 2020 when I was asymptomatic and only found out via an antibody test that I had been infected.

Three jabs later I then tested positive again a couple of weeks ago - a bad sore throat and slightly tight chest which lasted three or four days.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			In an act straight out of Big Brother she has also banned smoking, now I’m not a fan of smoking at all. I hate it, but I believe people should be free to choose there vice. What next, Fast food, Alcohol, Coffee or meat?
		
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Well, that would be an excellent idea - if it was true. But it's certainly headed toward a reduction in smoking, a horrible habit that costs thousands of lives every year and untold cost to the economy.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			The first bout was the spring of 2020 when I was asymptomatic and only found out via an antibody test that I had been infected.

Three jabs later I then tested positive again a couple of weeks ago - a bad sore throat and slightly tight chest which lasted three or four days.
		
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So 'herd immunity' didn't work for you.


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## drdel (Jan 23, 2022)

I see the handbags are out again on an off-topic side show.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 23, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Why take any notice of someone in England, whose feed is also full of conspiracy theories, commenting on another Country?

Some on here would be frothing at the mouth if a foreigner, in another Country, *made derogatory comments about our PM*.
		
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Not our *current* PM though! 😄

That feed is posted by a nutcase I admit but it was the first one I found that had the quote I was looking for. 
I have a whole list of reasons not to like her though for instance her sucking up to the CCP and risking the 5 eyes alliance.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-56970640


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			So 'herd immunity' didn't work for you.
		
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In terms of catching it, it would appear not. In terms of becoming seriously ill? We’ll never know.

But then, of course, you knew the answer before you asked the question, didn’t you?

😉


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Not our *current* PM though! 😄

That feed is posted by a nutcase I admit but it was the first one I found that had the quote I was looking for.
I have a whole list of reasons not to like her though for instance her sucking up to the CCP and risking the 5 eyes alliance.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-56970640

Click to expand...

You must of been fuming over Br…. when we binned all the intelligence sharing with our neighbours.

Got to be honest, unless you are planning to live in NZ I’m not sure why you’d be that bothered by a Country so far away and that has very little impact on us.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			In terms of catching it, it would appear not. In terms of becoming seriously ill? We’ll never know.

But then, of course, you knew the answer before you asked the question, didn’t you?

😉
		
Click to expand...

There was no question in the post you quoted!
The only relevant question I asked was in the earlier post...and I didn't know the answer to that - which is why I asked it!
You seem to be suggesting I have an ulterior motive. I don't!


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## larmen (Jan 23, 2022)

As we are now covid isolating we have placed our 1st ever online shopping order. What a weird experience. I think I know my ‘regular path’ through my local Tesco that well, I basically did a VR round through the shop. But it really highlights to me how unhealthy my shopping is. But it should see us through until at least one of us is allowed out again.


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

larmen said:



			As we are now covid isolating we have placed our 1st ever online shopping order. What a weird experience. I think I know my ‘regular path’ through my local Tesco that well, I basically did a VR round through the shop. But it really highlights to me how unhealthy my shopping is. But it should see us through until at least one of us is allowed out again.
		
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We started online shopping early in Covid and have got so used to it we have kept it up. Our delivery comes on Monday, so the deadline for changes is Sunday afternoon, and the kids are now used to making their demands by that time.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			That is an utterly deranged comment. You should stay away from sharp objects for a while. Some nice men in white coats jackets will be visiting shortly.
		
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Yes well you've made your point enough times and shouted down anyone who dares not to agree with you over the last two years so I'll file that away where I'll never see it again.


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Yes well you've made your point enough times and shouted down anyone who dares not to agree with you over the last two years so I'll file that away where I'll never see it again.
		
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I used to deal with psychotic people, but most of them were easier to listen to than you. Goodbye.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 23, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Yet their economy has suffered less and bounced back quicker? An area you have been quite vocal about in the way the UK has responded!
		
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Chalk and cheese economies and locations. They closed down early and stayed sealed off. That worked very well but their zero xovid strategy will not be possible going forward


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Chalk and cheese economies and locations. They closed down early and stayed sealed off. That worked very well but their zero xovid strategy will not be possible going forward
		
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They won't be following a zero Covid strategy in the medium term. 

I would have thought the external NZ economy, based on import/export and tourism, was more vulnerable than the UK one which has a large measure of financial services, mostly done electronically these days, and all the IT systems have good anti-virus protection. 

Does the location matter? The UK seems to have developed a view that proximity is not a consideration, doing deals with Asian and LATAM countries in preference to markets on its doorstep.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Chalk and cheese economies and locations. They closed down early and stayed sealed off. That worked very well but their zero xovid strategy will not be possible going forward
		
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Or, or just maybe they will of got it right and could be used in the future as the way to handle a pandemic.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 23, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Or, or just maybe they will of got it right and could be used in the future as the way to handle a pandemic.
		
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They entered March 20 with probably no covid. We were riddled with it at that point. So outcomes were decided before any action. And even the medical experts were split on what to do a week or so before we locked down. In hindsight, we know locking down earlier would have been a better course of action on the first outbreak and we were unprepared. Lessons need learning all around. But decisions will all be different in the post vaccine world unless it is something completely different - and our geography and demographics are very different to NZ


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			They entered March 20 with probably no covid. We were riddled with it at that point. So outcomes were decided before any action. And even the medical experts were split on what to do a week or so before we locked down. In hindsight, we know locking down earlier would have been a better course of action on the first outbreak and we were unprepared. Lessons need learning all around. But decisions will all be different in the post vaccine world unless it is something completely different - and our geography and demographics are very different to NZ
		
Click to expand...

I don’t disagree lessons will be learnt, however, outcomes could of been changed at many times, you’ve called for different strategies yourself along the way, but, your previous post is far more to the point and it’s quite a definitive statement on how “their zero xovid strategy will not be possible going forward” You don’t actually know that at this point, nobody does.


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## PNWokingham (Jan 23, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t disagree lessons will be learnt, however, outcomes could of been changed at many times, you’ve called for different strategies yourself along the way, but, your previous post is far more to the point and it’s quite a definitive statement on how “their zero xovid strategy will not be possible going forward” You don’t actually know that at this point, nobody does.
		
Click to expand...

Of course we do. Nobody can do zero covid for years


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			They entered March 20 with probably no covid. We were riddled with it at that point. So outcomes were decided before any action. And even the medical experts were split on what to do a week or so before we locked down. In hindsight, we know locking down earlier would have been a better course of action on the first outbreak and we were unprepared. Lessons need learning all around. But decisions will all be different in the post vaccine world unless it is something completely different - and our geography and demographics are very different to NZ
		
Click to expand...

Really? Which medical experts thought that no lockdown was needed?


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			...
But equally I do think that Covid is no longer the terrifying disease which first emerged in late 2019/early 2020. A lot has been learned about the virus, how to treat it and, indeed, how to prevent it. And it seems undeniable now that it is no longer as severe as it once was.
...
		
Click to expand...

Having no vaccine was what made it 'terrifying'! Now that there are vaccines, it's no longer so terrifying.
It's only the current (Omicron) variant that's 'no longer as severe'. When a new variant comes along, it might be as bad as Delta. Worse still, it might also be as transferrable as Omicron!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Of course we do. Nobody can do zero covid for years
		
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But it could be at rate or level which has no impact on their economy, we have no idea whether NZ got it totally right or totally wrong, apart from maybe you.


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## bobmac (Jan 23, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			But it could be at rate or level which has no impact on their economy, we have no idea whether NZ got it totally right or totally wrong, apart from maybe you.
		
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What do the death/case rates suggest to you, right or wrong?


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## PNWokingham (Jan 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Really? Which medical experts thought that no lockdown was needed?
		
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Not what I said. The woman who was just made a dame T thee head of one of the health agencies said at the time that going to Cheltenham was safe - and that is acknowledged as a super-spreader event. We locked down soon after that


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## PNWokingham (Jan 23, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			But it could be at rate or level which has no impact on their economy, we have no idea whether NZ got it totally right or totally wrong, apart from maybe you.
		
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Grow up. I said they did well locking down. That is not the initial point I was making - that they cannot do zero covid for too long now. Nothing about what happened 2 years ago


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Not what I said. The woman who was just made a dame T thee head of one of the health agencies said at the time that going to Cheltenham was safe - and that is acknowledged as a super-spreader event. We locked down soon after that
		
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That is fair. Jenny Harries didn't exactly say it was safe but said that such events tend not to be the source of major outbreaks, or something to that effect. I may have missed her abject apology for that massively wring statement.

I wonder if that opinion had Chris Whitty's support - I suspect there was a degree of opinion shopping involved. Cheltenham was 10-13 March 2020. The advice not to go to the pub was made on 16 March, and the formal ban was announced on 23 March, to come into effect on 26 March. 

The point at which the spread of the virus became uncontrollable is a matter for debate, but is probably somewhere in that timeframe. I remember watching the advice address on 16 March and discussing with my also medical wife how pointless it was to offer advice when they needed to mandate. Indeed, the PM's father immediately said he didn't intend to follow it. I think even that week made a difference, whether or not Cheltenham would have been banned.


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Having no vaccine was what made it 'terrifying'! Now that there are vaccines, it's no longer so terrifying.
It's only the current (Omicron) variant that's 'no longer as severe'. When a new variant comes along, it might be as bad as Delta. Worse still, it might also be as transferrable as Omicron!
		
Click to expand...

Having no means of mitigating Covid when it emerged was just one of many aspects to it which made it such a terrifying prospect. There was also the limited treatment options, lack of understanding regarding transmission, pace of that transmission, any number of factors. And don’t get me started on the press coverage.

As for severity, I have read in more than one article suggestions by those who understand these things that, when new variants emerge, omicron has spread so far and wide, and so quickly, that those new variants are unlikely to be able to “bully” it so that it becomes less dominant. I’m sure Ethan will be quick to correct my understanding if it’s misguided, but I thought the experts all along have suggested that, as viruses continue to mutate, so they tend to become less severe. That is what we are seeing, surely.

New strains may well be a whole lot worse than omicron. But comment I have read, seen and heard suggests that is more unlikely than likely.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 23, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Grow up. I said they did well locking down. That is not the initial point I was making - that they cannot do zero covid for too long now. Nothing about what happened 2 years ago
		
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We were discussing the future and how the different Countries strategies have or will impact the future.

It has been clearly stated in a response to you their economy has bounced back quicker than us and yet all we get is the tired old argument of size and location.

You have an issue with their pm obviously, but as of right now, no one knows if their policy of strict lockdowns is correct:

Look at initial post this morning,

Billysboots said:
I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. The population are building up no natural immunity whatsoever.

You said
Agree. Total over reaction. 14 day isolation if positive and an extra 10 for family members, making 24 even without having it!

Pure guess work, it could be the right reaction, it has been for them so far, but you state it’s a total over reaction!

Maybe we should just wait and see and then use hindsight to see if they’ve got it right or wrong.


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Having no means of mitigating Covid when it emerged was just one of many aspects to it which made it such a terrifying prospect. There was also the limited treatment options, lack of understanding regarding transmission, pace of that transmission, any number of factors. And don’t get me started on the press coverage.

As for severity, I have read in more than one article suggestions by those who understand these things that, when new variants emerge, omicron has spread so far and wide, and so quickly, that those new variants are unlikely to be able to “bully” it so that it becomes less dominant. I’m sure Ethan will be quick to correct my understanding if it’s misguided, but I thought the experts all along have suggested that, as viruses continue to mutate, so they tend to become less severe. That is what we are seeing, surely.

New strains may well be a whole lot worse than omicron. But comment I have read, seen and heard suggests that is more unlikely than likely.
		
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Viruses do indeed tend to become less virulent as they evolve but it depends. Viruses exist to replicate, so if they can replicate they will prosper. If they kill the host before they transmit, that reduces their ability to replicate and they can't really prosper, so for that sort of virus, it will survive better if it becomes less virulent.

Viruses that transmit before symptoms occur don't have that problem, so there is less selection pressure on them to become less virulent. Covid largely falls into that category, so we should not assume that further variants will be even weaker than Omicron.

This process of evolution is based entirely on random chance. Covid isn't "planning" its next step. If a variant survives better or transmits faster, it takes over just based on numbers or it being like a race. Omicron was always going to dominate because of its transmissibility.

The other thing is that Covid is a virus with two distinct clinical phases. Flu and the cold don't have these. One is the immediate respiratory, pneumonia, shortness of breath aspect that occurs early. Omicron is clearly less potent at that than Delta. The second phase is an inflammatory disorder (sometimes called a cytokine storm) where a bunch of chemicals involved in immune response are triggered and cause inflammatory damage around the body. This is usually what kills people, who die of heart failure, renal failure, multi-organ collapse. You probably remember stories about people who appeared to be recovering after a week or so, then had a serious downturn. That was the inflammatory effects kicking in. It appears that Omicron is also weaker at this.

However, this inflammatory aspect has another dimension, subclinical (asymptomatic) damage. Studies of recovered Covid patients have shown a concerning rate of effects in various organs, ranging from effects on the brain which could accelerate dementia, the liver and kidneys which could cause premature failure, the pancreas which appears to increase the risk of Type 1 Diabetes in kids, and hyper coagulability which could cause heart attacks and stroke.. This is the bit that worries me about Covid, and what I think you should try not to catch it until as late as possible. It is likely these effects are mitigated to some extent by immunisation, which dampens the inflammatory effects, but we don't really know. Even though these effects may appear small, on a population level it can be significant, and having a bunch of small risks in various organs adds up to a lot more risk overall. Here is a link to a story about this issue.

Over time, most people will develop a complex and effective immunity against Covid, as we did with flu. This will be made up of immunisations, ideally a range of different types (heterologous vaccination), updated multiphase vaccines that are currently in development, some immune memory filled in from common cold coronaviruses and exposure to new and hopefully mild variants for which you have good immunity. At that point boosters may only be needed for older or immunocompromised people.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It is clearly not a perfect comparison, but the real difference was not in geography or demography but in [redacted] philosophy and leadership. People here are happy to compare Sweden, so why not NZ. Australia has also done a much better job for similar reasons.
		
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NZ philosophy on controlling covid seems to me to be based upon their experience and success of their very strict biosecurity regime, both when entering the country and within the country when entering certain protected/valuable/fragile environments.  They know that very tight control can work and that their citizens understand such controls can work while the country get fully vaccinated.  Also an observation on comparisons UK with NZ.  While pop density across NZ may be low cf UK, about 1/3rd of the population lives in one city - Auckland.  And so clearly the NZ approach has successfully contained viral spread even within its highest density conurbation.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			The biggest change since the spring of 2020 has to be the vaccination programme, which I think even the bigger sceptics agree has lessened the severity of the virus in those who catch it. Add to that a better understanding of how to treat Covid in a hospital environment and the result of mutations, and in general I think most agree that the virus should not terrify us to the extent it did.

I absolutely accept there will be exceptions to that, especially amongst the clinically vulnerable, but I am talking in general terms. 

I’m not sure if you saw a quote I posted a few weeks ago from an ICU nurse. In her experience, she said those aged over 60 in ICU with Covid who were fully vaccinated were almost all immunosuppressed. In other words, and again in her experience, if you are over 60, fully vaccinated and with a strong immune system, you are unlikely to find yourself in ICU with Covid. I would hope that gives you the confidence to not be as frightened of the virus as most were when it first struck.
		
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I get what you are saying but you are looking at it from a one dimension, sort of theoretical  perspective somewhat. Your comments re natural immunity and Ethan's reply re "natural deaths" tend to show that.
I accept that we will probably get Covid at some time- but then , we may not.
I certainly do not see any sense in making it easier NOW, in winter, for  people to catch it, by easing restrictions which are not really too onerous.
Wait until summer when hopefully the figures ( the 'figures' are not abstract, they are real people) are a lot fewer.

I look at it a bit like flying in a plane. It's a bumpy, noisy, not very nice flight and the sooner it ends the better.Everyone has a parachute, but the facts are for  old people are that a lot more of their chutes will not open when they are used.
Everyone is invited to jump, but I would sooner stay till the plane landed.
If it were on fire, then I would certainly jump and take my chances, but what does it hurt to let it land. 😀


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			NZ philosophy on controlling covid seems to me to be based upon their experience and success of their very strict biosecurity regime, both when entering the country and within the country when entering certain protected/valuable/fragile environments.  They know that very tight control can work and that their citizens understand such controls can work while the country get fully vaccinated.  Also an observation on comparisons UK with NZ.  While pop density across NZ may be low cf UK, about 1/3rd of the population lives in one city - Auckland.  And so clearly the NZ approach has successfully contained viral spread even within its highest density conurbation.
		
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Overall country pop density is meaningless. The empty spaces that dilute pop density don't matter. Most urban environments have high pop density, but in some Asian countries, the effective pop density is much higher than in London. 

I agree that NZ has a different attitude to biosecurity, but the main differentiators, in my view, were speed of action and resolve.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 23, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Overall country pop density is meaningless. The empty spaces that dilute pop density don't matter. Most urban environments have high pop density, but in some Asian countries, the effective pop density is much higher than in London.

I agree that NZ has a different attitude to biosecurity, but the main differentiators, in my view, were speed of action and resolve.
		
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I think that my main reflection was on the attitude that New Zealanders have in respect of understanding and accepting very tight border controls into and within the country - albeit in a biosecurity context.


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## RichA (Jan 23, 2022)

Also worth remembering that our current low mortality and hopefully high immunity rate has come at the cost of over 150000 dead fellow UK dwelling humans. The NZ rate is significantly lower. They win.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that my main reflection was on the attitude that New Zealanders have in respect of understanding and accepting very tight border controls into and within the country - albeit in a biosecurity context.
		
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Indeed! I got my golf kit cleaned better than any time since new when I went home during the UK's Foot & Mouth crisis!


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

RichA said:



			Also worth remembering that our current low mortality and hopefully high immunity rate has come at the cost of over 150000 dead fellow UK dwelling humans. The NZ rate is significantly lower. They win.
		
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52! However, cases have followed the usual peak that Omicron has brought. Up to 200 per day in November.


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



*you are looking at it from a one dimension, sort of theoretical  perspective somewhat.*

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I’m not sure that’s entirely fair.

I think the observation regarding vaccines, in particular, is borne out of the considerable experience of the medical profession that they lessen the severity of Covid symptoms in most. And the fact that doctors now have far better knowledge regarding how the virus behaves, and how to treat it, is not theoretical in the least. 

Neither is the hands on experience of an ICU nurse - she merely relayed her own direct observations regarding the impact vaccines are having on those populating the ICU where she works. 

I hear what you are saying regarding restrictions, and why they should be retained until the summer. The argument that those restrictions are so trifling that it matters not whether we continue to observe them has some credence. Until, that is, you consider that, even with those restrictions in place more than 3 million people are likely to have been infected in the U.K. in the last month alone. If I choose, I can drink in a packed pub, eat in a crowded restaurant, go to a football match with 75,000 others, and do any number of other things which bring me into contact, daily, with other people. That being the case, I see little to be gained from the mandatory wearing of face coverings in a shop or on a bus, if I can hop off that bus into the aforementioned pub, restaurant or football stadium. 

It’s a half cocked approach - if we’re not taking a really full on, strict approach then we might as well do nothing.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I really do think locking down for a handful of cases is going to do more harm than good in the long term. The population are building up no natural immunity whatsoever.
		
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I just checked their chart of cases here! https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/
It was is more than 'a handful'! For a country that has had mainly single figure daily cases for 18 months, the spike to around 200/day is an enormous jolt!
Not an over-reaction imo!


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## Billysboots (Jan 23, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I just checked their chart of cases here! https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/
It was is more than 'a handful'! For a country that has had mainly single figure daily cases for 18 months, the spike to around 200/day is an enormous jolt!
*Not an over-reaction imo!*

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I never said it was!!

And it was the media this morning reporting a handful - I read 9.

EDIT: The handful, I stress, relates to omicron cases, not all reported Covid infections.


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## Foxholer (Jan 23, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I never said it was!!

And it was the media this morning reporting a handful - I read 9.

EDIT: The handful, I stress, relates to omicron cases, not all reported Covid infections.
		
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Yeah. I was trying to include PNW's statement as well (without having to quote his post).
I've no idea where 'handful' nor '9' came from!


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## Ethan (Jan 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think that my main reflection was on the attitude that New Zealanders have in respect of understanding and accepting very tight border controls into and within the country - albeit in a biosecurity context.
		
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No, I know, and in other countries, social attitudes make social distancing easier, such as Scandinavia. Lots of different factors, but we do see some patterns in the data despite all that.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 23, 2022)

Seems like everyone has already gone back to "normal" in Bracknell. Precious few masks, no social distancing and pubs and restaurants busy (which is good for a struggling sector). Not sure we are out of the woods personally but I guess we'll have to see where the trajectory takes us in the next few weeks


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## larmen (Jan 23, 2022)

larmen said:



			As we are now covid isolating we have placed our 1st ever online shopping order. What a weird experience. I think I know my ‘regular path’ through my local Tesco that well, I basically did a VR round through the shop. But it really highlights to me how unhealthy my shopping is. But it should see us through until at least one of us is allowed out again.
		
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That didn't go to well. Someone in this house has to start eating dark chocolate soya custard and drink decaf diet coke. Just clicking on pictures is a lot harder than selecting the stuff from shelves ;-) User error, learning experience.
2 substitutions, 1 cancellation, not too bad on the lottery end of the order.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 24, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not sure that’s entirely fair.

I think the observation regarding vaccines, in particular, is borne out of the considerable experience of the medical profession that they lessen the severity of Covid symptoms in most. And the fact that doctors now have far better knowledge regarding how the virus behaves, and how to treat it, is not theoretical in the least. 

Neither is the hands on experience of an ICU nurse - she merely relayed her own direct observations regarding the impact vaccines are having on those populating the ICU where she works. 

I hear what you are saying regarding restrictions, and why they should be retained until the summer. The argument that those restrictions are so trifling that it matters not whether we continue to observe them has some credence. Until, that is, you consider that, even with those restrictions in place more than 3 million people are likely to have been infected in the U.K. in the last month alone. If I choose, I can drink in a packed pub, eat in a crowded restaurant, go to a football match with 75,000 others, and do any number of other things which bring me into contact, daily, with other people. That being the case, I see little to be gained from the mandatory wearing of face coverings in a shop or on a bus, if I can hop off that bus into the aforementioned pub, restaurant or football stadium. 


It’s a half cocked approach - if we’re not taking a really full on, strict approach then we might as well do nothing.
		
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Sorry, Billy, I didn't mean to be unfair, if that's how you see it.
But this is a situation where others can be dreadfully affected by the actions of others.
Above, where you say "If I choose .......etc.
Masks do not fully prevent you breathing in the virus. They help enormously, but not hundred per cent. They also help prevent you breathing out the virus.

So, you (and others) go to the pub etc and then go on a bus. On that bus is an elderly lady who must go on that public transport-she has no other choice.
If most on the bus are not wearing masks and some are positive, the viral load she has to contend with is far higher than if everyone( who had been to the pub etc) was wearing masks. Their "positive" breath would be hampered by the mask somewhat, and she would have a better chance of not picking it up.
To me it's a no brainier. Why is the inconvenience of all wearing a mask on the bus too onerous to keep her safe?
I agree that as far as that bus journey affects your chances of picking up the virus there masks or no masks makes no difference.
But it's about protecting the less robust people who have no choice but to be there.😀


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not sure that’s entirely fair.

I think the observation regarding vaccines, in particular, is borne out of the considerable experience of the medical profession that they lessen the severity of Covid symptoms in most. *And the fact that doctors now have far better knowledge regarding how the virus behaves, and how to treat it, is not theoretical in the least.*

Neither is the hands on experience of an ICU nurse - she merely relayed her own direct observations regarding the impact vaccines are having on those populating the ICU where she works.

I hear what you are saying regarding restrictions, and why they should be retained until the summer. The argument that those restrictions are so trifling that it matters not whether we continue to observe them has some credence. Until, that is, you consider that, even with those restrictions in place more than 3 million people are likely to have been infected in the U.K. in the last month alone. If I choose, I can drink in a packed pub, eat in a crowded restaurant, go to a football match with 75,000 others, and do any number of other things which bring me into contact, daily, with other people. That being the case, I see little to be gained from the mandatory wearing of face coverings in a shop or on a bus, if I can hop off that bus into the aforementioned pub, restaurant or football stadium.

It’s a half cocked approach - if we’re not taking a really full on, strict approach then we might as well do nothing.
		
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On this - yes I agree - we do - on basic virus; the variants so far we've had to deal with; the symptoms and illness the variants have given rise to; plus the vaccines developed to counter these specific variants and treatment of the illness. 

But unlike flu and cold viruses, we just don't, and can't, yet have decades of experience of longer term effects; experience of multiple and many variants of various levels of seriousness; and we have not been able to develop vaccines and treatments that span multiple 'classes' of variants and their associated illness. 

And that for me is why we cannot treat and live with covid as we treat and live with common viruses - not yet.  We need to adopt slightly higher and stricter risk mitigations in our way of life - mitigations more than _Catch it; Bin it; Kill it_, and if we are feeling rubbish maybe (but not necessarily) taking a day or two off work.

It's all very well advocating an approach that lets the coronavirus run free through the population - and of course I know why we'd want to take that approach, but I feel that the unknowns mean that that approach can only lead to the most vulnerable (and even to an extent those caring for them) finding themselves almost housebound in a way that they are not with such as flu and cold viruses. 

If I wasn't in this situation I might not be thinking this, but as of Christmas Eve I am, therefore I am.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 24, 2022)

just a touch confused

My daughter had the flu vaccine on Saturday

One of the side affects is a high temp

She got that and we gave her calpol during the night , kept her off school just for today , told the school and now they want LFT for her and can only come back in 2 days if another LFT is negative?!?

Temp is fine and no other symptoms

Confused and it’s a side affects of the flu vaccine

Edit - school confirmed she can go back tomorrow if negative 

But she is positive 😢 - the way she is running around like a loon it seems it’s not affecting her much 😂


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## PNWokingham (Jan 24, 2022)

I am sure many will hate this, others may not but i just heard a stat given at 6 minutes into the video that GB News asked the ONS how many otherwise healthy people died of covid in England and Wales - and they were told 17,371 and average age 82. Has anyone heard anything about this?


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## Ethan (Jan 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I am sure many will hate this, others may not but i just heard a stat given at 6 minutes into the video that GB News asked the ONS how many otherwise healthy people died of covid in England and Wales - and they were told 17,371 and average age 82. Has anyone heard anything about this?







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If they ask a very narrow clinically obtuse question, they will get a meaningless answer. As they did.

Many people have co-morbidities, high blood pressure, overweight, osteoarthritis, diabetes. The risk of death for the vast majority of those people is very low, and some of those conditions have no relation to a Covid death. The average (median) death age may be 82, but the distribution of deaths across ages, and unlike flu, the perennial comparator, it skews much younger.

Deaths within 28 days of a positive Covid test are considered in official Govt stats. The background death rate, i.e. the risk of death by age and sex in the normal population in the next 28 days, which can be predicted very precisely from actuarial data, is also well known, and is surprisingly low, even for elderly people, no more than 1% at age 80. The chance, therefore, that someone has a Covid test, but dies of something else in the next 28 days, is very very small, so small as to be safely ignored. And the odd case of someone who has a Covid test and dies when a meteorite hits them 27 days later are even more rare. Also, a lot of ICU deaths occur more than 28 days after first test, so are not counted in the official stats, although will likely be deemed Covid deaths at inquest. They key question is what proportion of these deaths would not have occurred had the patients not had Covid, and the answer is a lot more than 17k of them. 

The other side of this is that whilst a Covid death may not be due only to Covid, a non-Covid death may be partly due to Covid. Suppose someone who has high BP, diabetes and Covid dies, what killed them? Possibly a bit of each. If you saw a certain death rate from this combo, you could compare it against deaths in people who had BP and diabetes only, and the difference would be attributable to Covid.


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## RichA (Jan 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I am sure many will hate this, others may not but i just heard a stat given at 6 minutes into the video that GB News asked the ONS how many otherwise healthy people died of covid in England and Wales - and they were told 17,371 and average age 82. Has anyone heard anything about this?







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Just watched the relevant bit. I'm genuinely not sure what overall point he's trying to make and I'm trying not to let my pre-conceived opinions about GBN into the equation.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I am sure many will hate this, others may not but i just heard a stat given at 6 minutes into the video that GB News asked the ONS how many otherwise healthy people died of covid in England and Wales - and they were told 17,371 and average age 82. Has anyone heard anything about this?







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This is a very political video and I'm surprised it's been kept on the thread.  I would like to comment on it but I'm sure my comments wouldn't be allowed.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 24, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Sorry, Billy, I didn't mean to be unfair, if that's how you see it.
But this is a situation where others can be dreadfully affected by the actions of others.
Above, where you say "If I choose .......etc.
Masks do not fully prevent you breathing in the virus. They help enormously, but not hundred per cent. They also help prevent you breathing out the virus.

So, you (and others) go to the pub etc and then go on a bus. On that bus is an elderly lady who must go on that public transport-she has no other choice.
If most on the bus are not wearing masks and some are positive, the viral load she has to contend with is far higher than if everyone( who had been to the pub etc) was wearing masks. Their "positive" breath would be hampered by the mask somewhat, and she would have a better chance of not picking it up.
To me it's a no brainier. Why is the inconvenience of all wearing a mask on the bus too onerous to keep her safe?
I agree that as far as that bus journey affects your chances of picking up the virus there masks or no masks makes no difference.
But it's about protecting the less robust people who have no choice but to be there.😀
		
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This explains my situation with my parents and in laws. 
My mother had her Gall bladder removed on Friday. A one day day case is now into its 4th days stay in hospital. She had a PCR test on Tuesday to make sure she could have the op on Friday. Her thoughts were then to go by bus into town shopping coz she is clear. Suffice to say I tripped out. As she sees it she was clear? so could go shopping, but the fact she could catch COVID was lost on her. FIL has dementia, check the rates of COVID in folk with dementia. They don’t understand it. I do feel we should now relax restrictions significantl, but as I have said before. Wearing a mask on public transport etc. Is it really that big a deal to continue. I don’t think so.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 24, 2022)

...well it has made helping my lad do his tax return extremely easy...


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## PNWokingham (Jan 24, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			This is a very political video and I'm surprised it's been kept on the thread.  I would like to comment on it but I'm sure my comments wouldn't be allowed.
		
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I didn't comment on the video I was interested in the stat. So rather than stirring the porridge feel free to add to the debate on how many 'died of' covid - as I had not see  this before, hence I posted it


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## RichA (Jan 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I didn't comment on the video I was interested in the stat. So rather than stirring the porridge feel free to add to the debate on how many 'died of' covid - as I had not see  this before, hence I posted it
		
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I don't feel it's particularly political - it just doesn't demonstrate anything, other than using a specifically requested statistic to show that 90% of UK COVID deaths haven't been perfect specimens of health. I could have guessed that - virtually everyone I know has some health issue or other that might be affected by a serious COVID infection and the vast majority of deaths during the peaks were the elderly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I am sure many will hate this, others may not but i just heard a stat given at 6 minutes into the video that GB News asked the ONS how many otherwise healthy people died of covid in England and Wales - and they were told 17,371 and average age 82. Has anyone heard anything about this?







Click to expand...

Very good twitter thread here about the 17,371. (As an aside that ONS figure is at Sep 21)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485570730867765251


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## Ethan (Jan 24, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Very good twitter thread here about the 17,371. (As an aside that ONS figure is at Sep 21)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485570730867765251

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Good thread. The absurd assertion by GB News is obviously a steaming pile of equine excrement. 

PNW should delete the post, that piece is not an alternative opinion, it is not providing balance, it is knowingly false and deliberate misinformation by GB News.


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## Foxholer (Jan 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I didn't comment on the video I was interested in the stat. So rather than stirring the porridge feel free to add to the debate on how many 'died of' covid - as I had not see  this before, hence I posted it
		
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I'm rather astonished that there were 17300 folk of average age 82 who did not have some other sort of illness in the first place!
Another example of 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics'!


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## Foxholer (Jan 24, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Very good twitter thread here about the 17,371. (As an aside that ONS figure is at Sep 21)


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485570730867765251

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Good clarification of the corruption, by GBN, of stats. But I can't agree with inferences later in that thread.


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## Hobbit (Jan 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I didn't comment on the video I was interested in the stat. So rather than stirring the porridge feel free to add to the debate on how many 'died of' covid - as I had not see  this before, hence I posted it
		
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If they hadn’t caught Covid would their underlying condition have killed them when it did? We’ve been told time and and time again that Covid is extremely dangerous to those with underlying conditions. Covid triggers the death. It might be a heart attack that kills them but what triggered the heart attack?

The ONS site also has plenty of data on excess deaths. Funnily enough the peaks in excess deaths coincides with the Covid waves, and those peaks are way higher than 17,000. Those waves aren’t attributed to a sudden rise in heart disease, obesity, COPD etc…


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## larmen (Jan 24, 2022)

Got an invite text today from my GP praxis for an anti-viral trial. Has anyone else had the opportunity?


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 24, 2022)

this time last year I knew only a handful of people who contracted covid. 
I now know more people that have had it than not. 
At work twelve in my department,  I am the last man standing with two going off since last week. 

I may have to donate my body to science at some point.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 24, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			I may have to donate my body to science at some point.
		
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Will they want it?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 24, 2022)

Does the thickness of the second line signify anything ?

When my daughter did her test the second line was very faint and thin


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## Billysboots (Jan 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does the thickness of the second line signify anything ?

When my daughter did her test the second line was very faint and thin
		
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I found that line faded as the days passed prior to me returning negative tests. My assumption is that it signifies a weak positive, but I may be wrong.


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## Jamesbrown (Jan 24, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Will they want it?
		
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If they want to look at a living Neanderthal!


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## larmen (Jan 24, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Does the thickness of the second line signify anything ?

When my daughter did her test the second line was very faint and thin
		
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That’s mine and PCR confirmed positive. You need to look at the right angle to see something at all.


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## Ethan (Jan 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Good clarification of the corruption of stats by GBN, but can't agree with inferences later in that thread.
		
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It isn’t a clarification of anything. It is either statistical illiteracy or intentional misinformation. Or both, possibly.


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## Foxholer (Jan 25, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It isn’t a clarification of anything. It is either statistical illiteracy or intentional misinformation. Or both, possibly.
		
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Sorry, very badly worded. Should have posted 'Good debunking of GBN's "stats" corruption' cf 'Good clarification of stats by GBN'.
'Intentional misinformation by GBN' would be my view too, as per my 'Lies, damn lies...'!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I didn't comment on the video I was interested in the stat. So rather than stirring the porridge feel free to add to the debate on how many 'died of' covid - as I had not see  this before, hence I posted it
		
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You could have just pulled out the stats you wanted to use from a reliable source rather than present it in a video where someone has a political axe to grind.  You know that we can't comment on many of the presenters points so think about it before posting.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2022)

larmen said:



			That’s mine and PCR confirmed positive. You need to look at the right angle to see something at all.
		
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A faint line is a positive result, it does explain that in the booklet.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 25, 2022)

Well the daughter thankfully doesn’t seem to be suffering to many symptoms- certainly got plenty of energy 😂

Just waiting for when me and the wife will catch it


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## Deleted member 3432 (Jan 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well the daughter thankfully doesn’t seem to be suffering to many symptoms- certainly got plenty of energy 😂

Just waiting for when me and the wife will catch it
		
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We all got it last week after I tested positive.

Bad head for a couple of days otherwise fine. Only thing was both the wife and I were unable to test out on day 6 and 7.


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## GreiginFife (Jan 25, 2022)

How has Coronavirus affected me? I've taken some time to mull this question recently as we approach 2 years of living with this. 
How has it affected me...? At the first lockdown, I lost my job. Or more accurately, my contract was not renewed. I spent 2 months with no income and no support due to the nature of the job that I do. I was fortunate that I found a new contract quite quickly. The second lock down saw that contract be ended. Again I found myself if a limbo. But this time I was very fortunate that my contact network found me ok. But it's an incredibly difficult position to be in asking how will I support my family, keep a roof over our heads. 

In the space of just over a year, I lost three people very close to me. Not one of them older than I am (43, 40 and 40). My best friend of 38 years died of a brain haemorrhage, sudden and unavoidable, but I couldn't get to say my final goodbyes to someone that had such an impact on my life and could only watch on a computer screen as he was laid to rest with only 8 of his large and tight knit family in attendance. 
My childhood friend of 35 years succumbed to a cancer that went untreated in it's most vital stage because treatment was not available in a timely manner. I was lucky enough to be in a small group of 15 people that were allowed to attend the funeral and say goodbye. 
A man that is less of a friend and more of a brother from another mother (and co-best man at my wedding) lost his wife to suicide caused by being removed from everything and everyone that she loved, as a very social person lockdown hit hard and the mental impact was too great. A brilliant, warm, funny and compassionate person lost forever. A family of 3 teenagers and a husband stripped of their mother and their wife. 

What's the point of this? Well, it's primarily answering the question, how has Coronavirus affected me. Quite strongly it would seem. Financial impact, mental and emotional impact and loss of people who didn't have or die FROM covid. 

There's no real point other than that, and just to get my musings of the last day or so out of the head and in to the ether. 

This thread has mainly become about should we have done this or should we have done that and whether or not the lockdowns had any impact. Believe me when I say, they might not have for you, and I am genuinely happy for you if they didn't, but be assured that for others, they and the wider effects of Covid certainly did.


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## SocketRocket (Jan 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			How has Coronavirus affected me? I've taken some time to mull this question recently as we approach 2 years of living with this.
How has it affected me...? At the first lockdown, I lost my job. Or more accurately, my contract was not renewed. I spent 2 months with no income and no support due to the nature of the job that I do. I was fortunate that I found a new contract quite quickly. The second lock down saw that contract be ended. Again I found myself if a limbo. But this time I was very fortunate that my contact network found me ok. But it's an incredibly difficult position to be in asking how will I support my family, keep a roof over our heads.

In the space of just over a year, I lost three people very close to me. Not one of them older than I am (43, 40 and 40). My best friend of 38 years died of a brain haemorrhage, sudden and unavoidable, but I couldn't get to say my final goodbyes to someone that had such an impact on my life and could only watch on a computer screen as he was laid to rest with only 8 of his large and tight knit family in attendance.
My childhood friend of 35 years succumbed to a cancer that went untreated in it's most vital stage because treatment was not available in a timely manner. I was lucky enough to be in a small group of 15 people that were allowed to attend the funeral and say goodbye.
A man that is less of a friend and more of a brother from another mother (and co-best man at my wedding) lost his wife to suicide caused by being removed from everything and everyone that she loved, as a very social person lockdown hit hard and the mental impact was too great. A brilliant, warm, funny and compassionate person lost forever. A family of 3 teenagers and a husband stripped of their mother and their wife.

What's the point of this? Well, it's primarily answering the question, how has Coronavirus affected me. Quite strongly it would seem. Financial impact, mental and emotional impact and loss of people who didn't have or die FROM covid.

There's no real point other than that, and just to get my musings of the last day or so out of the head and in to the ether.

This thread has mainly become about should we have done this or should we have done that and whether or not the lockdowns had any impact. Believe me when I say, they might not have for you, and I am genuinely happy for you if they didn't, but be assured that for others, they and the wider effects of Covid certainly did.
		
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A very honest and thought provoking post.  Thank you and so sorry to hear of your sad losses.  I lost the best friend I ever had last year, he was like a brother and I find it hard to get over him not being around.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 25, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			How has Coronavirus affected me? I've taken some time to mull this question recently as we approach 2 years of living with this.
How has it affected me...? At the first lockdown, I lost my job. Or more accurately, my contract was not renewed. I spent 2 months with no income and no support due to the nature of the job that I do. I was fortunate that I found a new contract quite quickly. The second lock down saw that contract be ended. Again I found myself if a limbo. But this time I was very fortunate that my contact network found me ok. But it's an incredibly difficult position to be in asking how will I support my family, keep a roof over our heads.

In the space of just over a year, I lost three people very close to me. Not one of them older than I am (43, 40 and 40). My best friend of 38 years died of a brain haemorrhage, sudden and unavoidable, but I couldn't get to say my final goodbyes to someone that had such an impact on my life and could only watch on a computer screen as he was laid to rest with only 8 of his large and tight knit family in attendance.
My childhood friend of 35 years succumbed to a cancer that went untreated in it's most vital stage because treatment was not available in a timely manner. I was lucky enough to be in a small group of 15 people that were allowed to attend the funeral and say goodbye.
A man that is less of a friend and more of a brother from another mother (and co-best man at my wedding) lost his wife to suicide caused by being removed from everything and everyone that she loved, as a very social person lockdown hit hard and the mental impact was too great. A brilliant, warm, funny and compassionate person lost forever. A family of 3 teenagers and a husband stripped of their mother and their wife.

What's the point of this? Well, it's primarily answering the question, how has Coronavirus affected me. Quite strongly it would seem. Financial impact, mental and emotional impact and loss of people who didn't have or die FROM covid.

There's no real point other than that, and just to get my musings of the last day or so out of the head and in to the ether.

This thread has mainly become about should we have done this or should we have done that and whether or not the lockdowns had any impact. Believe me when I say, they might not have for you, and I am genuinely happy for you if they didn't, but be assured that for others, they and the wider effects of Covid certainly did.
		
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Brutally honest post and hope getting it down on here helped in some way. I think if people took the time to do what you did and really analyse what Covid has meant to them, their families and then rippling outwards to their bigger network of work colleagues and friends there won't be many if they are being honest that won't have been affected more than they think. I know from my own experiences of working in ICU throughout has taken a huge personal toll and I may not have seen the full impact yet and won't until we return to whatever "normality" becomes. I think there will be a time when I have to sit down and really see where I am physically, mentally and emotionally


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## Jimaroid (Jan 25, 2022)

All the best Greig.

My 9 y/o daughter tested positive on Saturday night. She was miserable through the day but come Sunday she was back to her normal cheery self. The Mrs and I have LFD tested every day and always negative, however, we are both showing mild symptoms and feeling utterly dreadful. PCR tests done this morning and now waiting for the results.


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## GB72 (Jan 25, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			All the best Greig.

My 9 y/o daughter tested positive on Saturday night. She was miserable through the day but come Sunday she was back to her normal cheery self. The Mrs and I have LFD tested every day and always negative, however, we are both showing mild symptoms and feeling utterly dreadful. PCR tests done this morning and now waiting for the results.
		
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I have a mate whose wife had it. He was the same, felt bad but passed LFTs and a PCR until day 8 of his wife having it then he tested postive on an LFt then a PCR.


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## arnieboy (Jan 25, 2022)

GB72 said:



			I have a mate whose wife had it. He was the same, felt bad but passed LFTs and a PCR until day 8 of his wife having it then he tested postive on an LFt then a PCR.
		
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Sadly my 8 year old granddaughter tested positive on Monday morning.  Two of her best friends at school have also gone down with it. So difficult not being able to help.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			A very honest and thought provoking post.  Thank you and so sorry to hear of your sad losses.  I lost the best friend I ever had last year, he was like a brother and I find it hard to get over him not being around.
		
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Yup.  Many have been quite severely impacted - some very severely.  My MiL has lost her brother, sister, brother-in-law and two best pals in the last two years and hasn't attended the funeral of any of them.  My wife (and I) have had to provide a lot of emotional support - and that has been tough,


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## road2ruin (Jan 25, 2022)

Well we’ve had a good run at it having none of our household (knowingly) caught Covid however our daughter tested positive today after being sick last night. Seems like the soft play birthday party she attended on Saturday has been a mini super spreader event! Numerous positive tests in the class including a number who also tested positive in October/November.

So far we’re both testing negative but going to use tomorrow as a day of preparing just in case we do test positive later.

We have my wife’s mum’s 70th birthday weekend the weekend after this. It’s a weekend in a property with her and the sister in laws and their partners. I’m hoping to test positive this time next week so I have to isolate…..


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## Jimaroid (Jan 25, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			PCR tests done this morning and now waiting for the results.
		
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Mrs and I both positive. Feeling pretty rubbish but hopefully this is the worst of it.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 25, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well the daughter thankfully doesn’t seem to be suffering to many symptoms- certainly got plenty of energy 😂

Just waiting for when me and the wife will catch it
		
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My daughter has been pretty much symptom free. The wife has a pretty heavy cold but with the cough thrown in, but no temperature/body aches etc. I've been testing daily, sometimes twice a day, and have been negative so far despite not feeling 100% for the last couple of days. I'm a bit confused by this, I've really been expecting a positive but nothing so far. Is it possible to be positive but not ill enough to show up on a test? Probably a question for @Ethan ?


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## Ethan (Jan 25, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			My daughter has been pretty much symptom free. The wife has a pretty heavy cold but with the cough thrown in, but no temperature/body aches etc. I've been testing daily, sometimes twice a day, and have been negative so far despite not feeling 100% for the last couple of days. I'm a bit confused by this, I've really been expecting a positive but nothing so far. Is it possible to be positive but not ill enough to show up on a test? Probably a question for @Ethan ?
		
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Unlikely to be truly positive and repeatedly test negative, so long as the test is done properly. Some experts think the nasal swab only is less good at finding Omicron, and a tonsil swab is needed to be sure.

It is possible though that you have an old-fashioned cold. These (and flu) were reduced quite a bit with social distancing etc but are now making a comeback and they seem to be rather feisty.

If you are testing negative more than once, then I would take it at face value, and assume it is not Covid. If it really is Covid, one of you will test positive soon enough. I wouldn't test more than once a day, though, maybe not even that often. Once you have had symptoms for a few days, and have tested negative a couple of times, if those symptoms don't change, unlikely to change to positive.


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## larmen (Jan 25, 2022)

My GF has tested herself free today, I am still positive. Junior now positive but he was negative yesterday.

Our working theory was that we caught it Sunday a week ago in a soft play.


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## SaintHacker (Jan 25, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Unlikely to be truly positive and repeatedly test negative, so long as the test is done properly. Some experts think the nasal swab only is less good at finding Omicron, and a tonsil swab is needed to be sure.

It is possible though that you have an old-fashioned cold. These (and flu) were reduced quite a bit with social distancing etc but are now making a comeback and they seem to be rather feisty.

If you are testing negative more than once, then I would take it at face value, and assume it is not Covid.* If it really is Covid, one of you will test positive soon enough*. I wouldn't test more than once a day, though, maybe not even that often. Once you have had symptoms for a few days, and have tested negative a couple of times, if those symptoms don't change, unlikely to change to positive.
		
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Thats what I mean, they are both positive, we've been making no effort to avoid each other (well no more than normal!) but I seem to be avoiding it for some strange reason, despite feeling a bit run down. I might try a throat and nose swab tomorrow then to be on the safe side


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## Ethan (Jan 25, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Thats what I mean, they are both positive, we've been making no effort to avoid each other (well no more than normal!) but I seem to be avoiding it for some strange reason, despite feeling a bit run down. I might try a throat and nose swab tomorrow then to be on the safe side
		
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Maybe a superior immune system, T-cells hardened by years of exposure to pathogenic food and drink, better genetics or dumb luck.


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## Wabinez (Jan 26, 2022)

Tested positive after a test on Monday. lat flows came back negative so went to work - PCR at work then came back positive.

felt absolutely fine until Tuesday morning and now have the worst sore throat I have ever experienced. Truly awful. Hopefully this is the worst of it, and everything starts to ease.

paracetamol and strepsils to try and take the edge off.


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## larmen (Jan 26, 2022)

Question, the misses has tested herself free, I probably do it tomorrow as I tested negative today. Junior p can test himself free by next Monday if lucky.
We all keep testing ourselves until junior is free? That would make sense to me, but not sure I read anything about it.


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## Ethan (Jan 26, 2022)

larmen said:



			Question, the misses has tested herself free, I probably do it tomorrow as I tested negative today. Junior p can test himself free by next Monday if lucky.
We all keep testing ourselves until junior is free? That would make sense to me, but not sure I read anything about it.
		
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One you test positive x 2, days 6 and 7, you are done.


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## larmen (Jan 26, 2022)

Ethan said:



			One you test positive x 2, days 6 and 7, you are done.
		
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That still holds with another positive person in the house?


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## Ethan (Jan 26, 2022)

larmen said:



			That still holds with another positive person in the house?
		
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Yes. Unless you get new symptoms.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2022)

Ethan said:



			One you test positive x 2, days 6 and 7, you are done.
		
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We were told we can do an LFT on Day 5 and 6. If both come back as negative then our daughter can go back to  school.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 26, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			We were told we can do an LFT on Day 5 and 6. If both come back as negative then our daughter can go back to  school.
		
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That’s we have been told as well - LFT on the 5th day since the positive test or first symptoms


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## Ethan (Jan 26, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			We were told we can do an LFT on Day 5 and 6. If both come back as negative then our daughter can go back to  school.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s we have been told as well - LFT on the 5th day since the positive test or first symptoms
		
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Yes, you are both right, days 5 and 6.


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## road2ruin (Jan 26, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Yes, you are both right, days 5 and 6.
		
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Phew, any opportunity to release a caged 7 year old…..


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## Mudball (Jan 27, 2022)

I know guidance has changed and Covid is over according to the powers to be...   But does anyone feel that on the ground

In our case it seems to be going up.  In the last week, I am hearing more cases esp kids at school picking it up (and passing).. HIDs workplace is affected with Parents picking up or having to WFH due to kids being at home. We were to go to Oxford this weekend, but had to cancel as friend’s kid (<12) has got covid ..   

So is it going up or down?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 27, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I know guidance has changed and Covid is over according to the powers to be...   But does anyone feel that on the ground

In our case it seems to be going up.  In the last week, I am hearing more cases esp kids at school picking it up (and passing).. HIDs workplace is affected with Parents picking up or having to WFH due to kids being at home. We were to go to Oxford this weekend, but had to cancel as friend’s kid (<12) has got covid ..  

So is it going up or down?
		
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We have more staff off this week than last


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## SocketRocket (Jan 27, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I know guidance has changed and Covid is over according to the powers to be...   But does anyone feel that on the ground

In our case it seems to be going up.  In the last week, I am hearing more cases esp kids at school picking it up (and passing).. HIDs workplace is affected with Parents picking up or having to WFH due to kids being at home. We were to go to Oxford this weekend, but had to cancel as friend’s kid (<12) has got covid ..  

So is it going up or down?
		
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Its not over until it's over.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 27, 2022)

Well the wife now has Covid - woke up feeling rough , did a LFT and a faint line appeared - the line appeared after about 20mins so she also booked a PCR

I’m still fine , no symptoms and negative on the LFT , shocked really


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## GB72 (Jan 27, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Seems closer than ever at the moment. Cases in my other half's choir have been steadily increasing since their rehearsal at the weekend. She's negative so far but not feeling great - waiting results of a PCR test this morning.

Completely anecdotal, but I think I know more people who've tested positive over the last month than in the entire pandemic prior to that. Happily, haven't heard of anyone with serious symptoms during that period though.
		
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I think that this sums up my experience. Far more people I know have tested positive over the last month but nearly all of them have said that the symptoms were so minor that they would have continued with life as normal if it were not covid.


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## RichA (Jan 27, 2022)

Between 40-50 kids off with covid at Mrs A's school right now. Back to face to face unmasked parents' evenings next week. 2 hours of non-stop 5 minute meetings, all parents and teachers in the same room like a massive speed date.
I expect some of the teachers and parents are looking forward to it even less than usual.


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## Mudball (Jan 27, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We have more staff off this week than last
		
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Same at the HID's clinic.   

Looks like our neighbour father-son have tested positive.  Father is having a lie in while he gets the son to wash the cars!!
Half of the kids footy team now not available for weekend matches. 

As mentioned earlier, there seems to be far more positive tests than 'normal'..   It may jump next week as schools go mask-less starting today.    

Have been jumped the gun to ease the masking rules?


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## Imurg (Jan 27, 2022)

At the Test centre today and one of the driving examiners, who had COVID just before Xmas, took my pupil out.
She looked like she was still having a really hard time with it a month on...


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## AmandaJR (Jan 27, 2022)

Funeral this afternoon for my friend. Just doing my test and better not be positive. Going to be a tough day for us all and most especially her husband and family :-(


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 27, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Same at the HID's clinic.  

Looks like our neighbour father-son have tested positive.  Father is having a lie in while he gets the son to wash the cars!!
Half of the kids footy team now not available for weekend matches.

As mentioned earlier, there seems to be far more positive tests than 'normal'..   It may jump next week as schools go mask-less starting today.   

Have been jumped the gun to ease the masking rules?
		
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I am concerned we may have jumped the gun and wonder whether the expected spike post Christmas and the new year has simply taken longer to manifest. As well as Covid we seem to be having a bug going round with sore throats, headaches etc so very similar to Covid but all laterals and PCR's coming through negative


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Funeral this afternoon for my friend. Just doing my test and better not be positive. Going to be a tough day for us all and most especially her husband and family :-(
		
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Sad for you Amanda. Hope everything goes ok this afternoon.


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## Leftitshort (Jan 27, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I am concerned we may have jumped the gun and wonder whether the expected spike post Christmas and the new year has simply taken longer to manifest. As well as Covid we seem to be having a bug going round with sore throats, headaches etc so very similar to Covid but all laterals and PCR's coming through negative
		
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Better lockdown if there is a cold going around!!! My little boy has a runny nose. I’m locking him in the shed for 2 weeks, can’t be too careful


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 27, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Better lockdown if there is a cold going around!!! My little boy has a runny nose. I’m locking him in the shed for 2 weeks, can’t be too careful
		
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Does he live in New Zealand?  If so, make it an extra 10 days just to be sure.


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## DanFST (Jan 27, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As well as Covid we seem to be having a bug going round with sore throats, headaches etc so very similar to Covid but all laterals and PCR's coming through negative
		
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I believe that used to be called "a cold" in the good old days.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well the wife now has Covid - woke up feeling rough , did a LFT and a faint line appeared - the line appeared after about 20mins so she also booked a PCR

I’m still fine , no symptoms and negative on the LFT , shocked really
		
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I don't think she needs a PCR. LFT very unlikely to give false positive. She has Covid.


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Does he live in New Zealand?  If so, make it an extra 10 days just to be sure.
		
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NZ..52 Deaths (10/million)  UK 154702 Deaths (2206/million). I'm inclined to believe NZ's approach is pretty good!


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			NZ..52 Deaths (221/million)  UK 154702 Deaths (2206/million). I'm inclined to believe NZ's approach is pretty good!
		
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NZ has a population around 5.1 million, so more like 10 deaths per million. UK is about right, though.


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			NZ has a population around 5.1 million, so more like 10 deaths per million. UK is about right, though.
		
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Doh! Read the line above (Brunei)! Indeed, 10/million. Thanks; Post updated.


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## D-S (Jan 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			NZ..52 Deaths (10/million)  UK 154702 Deaths (2206/million). I'm inclined to believe NZ's approach is pretty good!
		
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By the same token China’s approach has been ‘robust’ too


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2022)

D-S said:



			By the same token China’s approach has been ‘robust’ too
		
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If you believe their figures!
FWIW, China requires 14 days quarantine.


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## DanFST (Jan 27, 2022)

Whilst I applaud NZ for locking the door early and really getting on top of the virus.

I'm confused by their current approach. They have a higher vaccination rate than the UK. Arden just cancelled her wedding for what to 99% of people will be a cold. When will it end? NZ Residents in other countries apart from Australia still aren't allowed to enter!


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## larmen (Jan 27, 2022)

Yesterday I tested negative on the way of testing myself free today.
Today I am positive again. New test tomorrow for release after a Saturday test.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 27, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I believe that used to be called "a cold" in the good old days.
		
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I agree and some paracetamol and plenty of fluids will no doubt do the trick. The point is with the symptoms being akin to some Covid symptoms many people will go straight to a LFT and start to worry. You have to admire the diligence of the NZ population having to endure such tough lockdown measures which they seem to have done as one. If you take out all of the politics, even during our very first lockdown there were people meeting up in large groups n parks etc.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 27, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Whilst I applaud NZ for locking the door early and really getting on top of the virus.

I'm confused by their current approach. They have a higher vaccination rate than the UK. *Arden just cancelled her wedding for what to 99% of people will be a cold.* When will it end? NZ Residents in other countries apart from Australia still aren't allowed to enter!
		
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It’s called virtue signalling, and she is a master at it.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s called virtue signalling, and she is a master at it.
		
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Its called leading by example and makes her a much more respected person than others .. rightly or wrongly If you practice what you preach you are far more likely to command respect.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 27, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree and some paracetamol and plenty of fluids will no doubt do the trick. The point is with the symptoms being akin to some Covid symptoms many people will go straight to a LFT and start to worry. *You have to admire the diligence of the NZ population having to endure such tough lockdown measures which they seem to have done as one.* If you take out all of the politics, even during our very first lockdown there were people meeting up in large groups n parks etc.
		
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They (like the rest of the world) have had loads of protests. It’s just hushed up by the MSM.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_anti-lockdown_protests_in_New_Zealand


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			It’s called virtue signalling, and she is a master at it.
		
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Perhaps she should have a birthday party or drinks in the garden. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 27, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I believe that used to be called "a cold" in the good old days.
		
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Certainly not man flu 👍


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## Jimaroid (Jan 27, 2022)

Thought I might feel a little better this morning but I just feel differently unwell to yesterday. As some symptoms have faded away, others have developed.

Overall it’s been similar to flu for me. Initially a fever with very aching joints, painful knees and elbows in particular with whole-body aches and shakes. After 36 hours or so the fever waned into a constant headache, lethargy and some mental confusion (is this the brain fog people talk about?).

I’ve had pneumonia in the distant past and this is nothing compared to that but I still wouldn’t dismiss this as just a cold.


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## Ethan (Jan 27, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Whilst I applaud NZ for locking the door early and really getting on top of the virus.

I'm confused by their current approach. They have a higher vaccination rate than the UK. Arden just cancelled her wedding for what to 99% of people will be a cold. When will it end? NZ Residents in other countries apart from Australia still aren't allowed to enter!
		
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Should be no reason for confusion. They take decisive action based on the precautionary principle. They don't know the longer term effects of Omicron, although you think you do. 

As a result of their willingness to act, they have a per capita death rate 99.5% lower than the UK. And their economy is recovering faster too!


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## Tashyboy (Jan 27, 2022)

There were thoughts at one time that “ herd immunity” was the way forward. Omicron was suggested it could be the answer to that route. Being highly infectious and not so deadly. However I read a piece that 2/3rds of people that had Omicron had caught COVID before. So if the current 7 day trend is 90k a day. there is only 30k a day new infections for the first time. If that is the case, herd Immunity is a long way off.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 27, 2022)

This opinion piece by a Kiwi gives a rather different view on what some think is a Kiwi nirvana……

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...-Jacinda-Arderns-crazy-Covid-zero-policy.html

I know some narrow minded people will dismiss it because it’s the Mail but try to read it all. The place sounds like a terrible place right now.


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			This opinion piece by a Kiwi gives a rather different view on what some think is a Kiwi nirvana……

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...-Jacinda-Arderns-crazy-Covid-zero-policy.html

I know some narrow minded people will dismiss it because it’s the Mail but try to read it all. The place sounds like a terrible place right now.
		
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Its exactly that, an opinion piece with few facts. But its the facts, what few there are, that are worth a look. For example, it states there’s only 200 ICU beds. The NZ Medical Journal comes up with a different number. Including isolation rooms within ICU, and the number of critical care ventilators available, the number of beds exceeds 500. Now that’s a big discrepancy…

And the fact that the piece doesn’t get the number of beds anything like right brings into question the credibility of the opinion. My guess is the (what is just) an opinion piece suits your narrative. At least research the bits in it that are expressed as facts, or maybe you’re being narrow minded.


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## upsidedown (Jan 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			This opinion piece by a Kiwi gives a rather different view on what some think is a Kiwi nirvana……

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...-Jacinda-Arderns-crazy-Covid-zero-policy.html

I know some narrow minded people will dismiss it because it’s the Mail but try to read it all. The place sounds like a terrible place right now.
		
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Not according to our friends and family out there .


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## RichA (Jan 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			This opinion piece by a Kiwi gives a rather different view on what some think is a Kiwi nirvana……

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...-Jacinda-Arderns-crazy-Covid-zero-policy.html

I know some narrow minded people will dismiss it because it’s the Mail but try to read it all. The place sounds like a terrible place right now.
		
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Why would anyone dismiss it? The guy won showbiz reporter of the year 3 times after he left the Big Brother highlights show.


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## drdel (Jan 27, 2022)

New Zealand is completely different sociologically, and spatially. It  is not an international transit or trade hub and so the type of economic activity and resultant level of interactions and commuting patterns are vastly different.

Comparing Covid data with the UK, like other international 'league' tables, are best left to simplistic journalists to use a clickbait.


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## Fade and Die (Jan 27, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Its exactly that, an opinion piece with few facts. But its the facts, what few there are, that are worth a look. For example, it states there’s only 200 ICU beds. The NZ Medical Journal comes up with a different number. Including isolation rooms within ICU, and the number of critical care ventilators available, the number of beds exceeds 500. Now that’s a big discrepancy…

And the fact that the piece doesn’t get the number of beds anything like right brings into question the credibility of the opinion. My guess is the (what is just) an opinion piece suits your narrative. At least research the bits in it that are expressed as facts, or maybe you’re being narrow minded.
		
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Being a bit selective yourself there with the NZ medical journal aren’t you?

“176 staffed ICU beds in 25 ICUs in 24 public hospitals of which 15 were dedicated paediatric ICU beds”

But when they bundle together the maximum amount of beds that could possibly be used (not staffed btw) you get to your 500.

https://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal...-icu-bed-capacity-and-covid-19-surge-capacity


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			...
As a result of their willingness to act, they have a per capita death rate 99.5% lower than the UK. And their economy is recovering faster too!
		
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My big fear for them is that the Omicron variant will nullify the strategy that worked very well with previous variants. That might actually be a (relatively) good thing!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2022)

What I don’t understand why there is so much anomisty to how New Zealand coped and dealt  with the pandemic? Just why does it bother someone sat in the UK? There’s no need to compare them to any other Country and how they do, this, that or whatever or their location etc, it’s up to them and their people to decide at the next if they have done the right thing.

Personally I say good luck to them, but it certainly comes across on here as some will be looking to rejoice or say “I told you so” if in the future they lost hundreds or even thousands to Covid and at that thought I despair!


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Being a bit selective yourself there with the NZ medical journal aren’t you?

“176 staffed ICU beds in 25 ICUs in 24 public hospitals of which 15 were dedicated paediatric ICU beds”

But when they bundle together the maximum amount of beds that could possibly be used (not staffed btw) you get to your 500.

https://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal...-icu-bed-capacity-and-covid-19-surge-capacity

Click to expand...

And what do you think the real number of staffed beds is in any country in the world, the emphasis on staffed? And I only included those within ICU areas. There are other critical care, ventilated beds in hospitals, e.g. CICU/HDU. But of course, you know all this…


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## Hobbit (Jan 27, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			What I don’t understand why there is so much anomisty to how New Zealand coped and dealt  with the pandemic? Just why does it bother someone sat in the UK? There’s no need to compare them to any other Country and how they do, this, that or whatever or their location etc, it’s up to them and their people to decide at the next if they have done the right thing.

Personally I say good luck to them, but it certainly comes across on here as some will be looking to rejoice or say “I told you so” if in the future they lost hundreds or even thousands to Covid and at that thought I despair!
		
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It’s a different strategy Paul. Getting as many of the people vaccinated before they open up what would be very fertile ground for the virus. And of course, some people have been told by Karen…


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## Foxholer (Jan 27, 2022)

DanFST said:



			...NZ Residents in other countries apart from Australia still aren't allowed to enter!
		
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I don't believe that's correct! Though they'll have to isolate in MIQ for 14 days on entry.
Got a link to an _authoritative_ org that states that?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 27, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			It’s a different strategy Paul. Getting as many of the people vaccinated before they open up what would be very fertile ground for the virus. And of course, some people have been told by Karen…

Click to expand...

I understand what they are doing, I just wonder why some seem to care so much about another Countries strategy to get to the point of seemingly hating it’s pm.


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## DanFST (Jan 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe that's correct! Though they'll have to isolate in MIQ for 14 days on entry.
Got a link to an _authoritative_ org that states that?
		
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"We recognise that not all New Zealanders who want to return home at the moment are able to do so. New Zealanders who cannot return home for the time being should take steps to stay safely where they are until they are able to return." 3rd paragraph.



Ethan said:



			Should be no reason for confusion. They take decisive action based on the precautionary principle. They don't know the longer term effects of Omicron, although you think you do.

As a result of their willingness to act, they have a per capita death rate 99.5% lower than the UK. And their economy is recovering faster too!
		
Click to expand...

No need to be condescending. I don't know the long term effects of Covid, same as you. However with Omicron being as infectious as it is, i'm a realist. You cannot lock yourself away forever. Residents being unable to return home is a joke. 

It's great they have such a low death rate. However they don't exactly have the busiest hub airport in Europe, Geographically they were always going to do better.


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## Ethan (Jan 28, 2022)

DanFST said:



"We recognise that not all New Zealanders who want to return home at the moment are able to do so. New Zealanders who cannot return home for the time being should take steps to stay safely where they are until they are able to return." 3rd paragraph.

No need to be condescending. I don't know the long term effects of Covid, same as you. However with Omicron being as infectious as it is, i'm a realist. You cannot lock yourself away forever. Residents being unable to return home is a joke.

It's great they have such a low death rate. However they don't exactly have the busiest hub airport in Europe, Geographically they were always going to do better.
		
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I think it is rather dismissive and reckless to blithely say that Omicron is like a cold for 99%. That makes some big assumptions, as well as paying no regard to other variants which are bubbling around. The fact that we don't know the long term effects is the reason for caution.  

And again, you do the 'lock away forever' thing. Can you tell me who wants people locked away forever or how long you think forever is?

Maybe NZ was always going to do better, but the enormity of how better they have done (99.5% lower death rate over capita is a lot lot better) is largely down to policy and leadership not geography. Same as why Norway and Finland, Sweden's culturally, geographically and demographically similar neighbours did so much better than Sweden. As for the travel hub, the pandemic meant that London was not an international travel hub any more, there wasn't much traffic going on at Heathrow during the pandemic. Down 88% in summer 2020.


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2022)

DanFST said:



"We recognise that not all New Zealanders who want to return home at the moment are able to do so. New Zealanders who cannot return home for the time being should take steps to stay safely where they are until they are able to return." 3rd paragraph.
...
		
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So you have interpreted that 'cannot' as 'not allowed'. Have you considered a job at the Daily Mail or Sun?
FWIW. All that's required is a voucher for MIQ. And if the returner is staying for 180 days or longer, there's no charge. So those who are genuinely returning are fine; those merely visiting are being treated as tourists. Seems perfectly fair to me! Though obviously, and sadly, could cause problems for some cases such as 'last chance to see' ones, or for funerals, such as I had - twice.

Btw. Are you or someone close to you actually an NZ citizen?  Or are you simply commenting as an 'outsider'?


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## DRW (Jan 28, 2022)

Omicron is a game changer from a society basis(edit with vaccines, treatments and infections of course), not read this thread for a while now as a result, life in the world is hopefully turning a better chapter.

My wife and I, had always looked at the 1 in x cases get hospitalised and said if the figures had got to 1 in 200ish for our age range, that we would basically return to normal(with less going out etc). Have to admit I have a very uneasy feeling about it as both mum/wife have multiple underlying conditions.

Originally pre vaccines, for 50-59 I think it was about 1 in 10-15ish cases got hospitalised, 2 doses with delta meant 1 in 100ish cases hospitalised, now with 3 doses & omicron its well over 1 in 200(in theory less 1 in 300 are hospitalised from cases). Not sure if anyone has followed these figures, but they are given in the PHE vaccine report released yesterday(the figures are below and they are similar to the one before and from other countries such as denmark, france, usa tbh). I havent bothered allowing for lag or clearly linking or anything else, but gives some real rough figures, which is good enough for my purposes.

Heres the basic figures for the 1 in X hospitalised figures, thought I would stick them up, for context(edit just noticed I labelled the last column wrong it should be Anybody, so is an average for all cases/hospitals from unvacc to 3 dose):-


Take care everyone and hopefully this will be my last post on the thread.


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think it is rather dismissive and reckless to blithely say that Omicron is like a cold for 99%. That makes some big assumptions, as well as paying no regard to other variants which are bubbling around. The fact that we don't know the long term effects is the reason for caution. 

And again, you do the 'lock away forever' thing. Can you tell me who wants people locked away forever or how long you think forever is?

Maybe NZ was always going to do better, but the enormity of how better they have done (99.5% lower death rate over capita is a lot lot better) is largely down to policy and leadership not geography. Same as why Norway and Finland, Sweden's culturally, geographically and demographically similar neighbours did so much better than Sweden. As for the travel hub, the pandemic meant that London was not an international travel hub any more, there wasn't much traffic going on at Heathrow during the pandemic. Down 88% in summer 2020.
		
Click to expand...

C'mon more than the population of NZ commute around London daily even during Covid! Contesting you on "...policy and leadership..." is just arguing politics and it ain't right either


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2022)

drdel said:



			C'mon more than the population of NZ commute around London daily even during Covid! Contesting you on "...policy and leadership..." is just arguing politics and it ain't right either
		
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So what!
What's your reasoning as to why they've so successful? And do you think it can continue?
I'm certainly nervous for them with their current number of daily infections, but it it's Omicron, then maybe death count will be small.
And while there's a number of anti-vaxers (and anti- lots) protesting, the vast majority are prepared to suffer some restrictions for the general good - being generally no-nonsense, realistic and sensible.


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## Ethan (Jan 28, 2022)

drdel said:



			C'mon more than the population of NZ commute around London daily even during Covid! Contesting you on "...policy and leadership..." is just arguing politics and it ain't right either
		
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But that is irrelevant. Transmissibility is not greater in larger populations per se. Cities in NZ have a high population density. The top half of Scotland has a low density. 

The fact is that NZ acted faster and harder and it paid off big time. You can argue that this would not have been possible in the UK, but you can't really argue that it was not he cause of the vastly superior outcomes. 

As I said above, there was a natural experiment in the Nordics. Norway, Sweden and Finland all have very similar populations, demographics, climate and culture, and open borders. Norway and Finland each had at least a 5 fold lower death rate than Sweden. The only real difference was the public health policy.


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## larmen (Jan 28, 2022)

Still positive. I guess I am not testing myself free before the time is up then.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2022)

Well daughter is still positive but still full of beans , wife suffering a little but 

Yet I’m still negative and 🤞no symptoms 

I’m still expecting it soon


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## road2ruin (Jan 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well daughter is still positive but still full of beans , wife suffering a little but

Yet I’m still negative and 🤞no symptoms

I’m still expecting it soon
		
Click to expand...

For our daughter it was like a 24hr bug. She’s been absolutely fine since waking up on Wednesday morning and it’s now a nightmare trying to keep her entertained. 

We’re both still negative and we’re keeping everything crossed that she tests negative tomorrow and Sunday so we can get her back into school on Monday!!


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## chellie (Jan 28, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well daughter is still positive but still full of beans , wife suffering a little but

Yet I’m still negative and 🤞no symptoms

I’m still expecting it soon
		
Click to expand...

It seems to be like sickness and the squirts. Can go through a whole family or not.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			For our daughter it was like a 24hr bug. She’s been absolutely fine since waking up on Wednesday morning and it’s now a nightmare trying to keep her entertained.

We’re both still negative and we’re keeping everything crossed that she tests negative tomorrow and Sunday so we can get her back into school on Monday!!
		
Click to expand...

Today was day 5 for the daughter so going to have to hope she is negative tomorrow but not hopefully and she is full of snot 😂😂


chellie said:



			It seems to be like sickness and the squirts. Can go through a whole family or not.
		
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Yeah some seem to have it go through the whole family or it just stays at one. 

I think I have avoided it the whole time so I’m just expecting to to arrive tonight 😂


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## DanFST (Jan 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			So you have interpreted that 'cannot' as 'not allowed'. Have you considered a job at the Daily Mail or Sun?
FWIW. All that's required is a voucher for MIQ. And if the returner is staying for 180 days or longer, there's no charge. So those who are genuinely returning are fine; those merely visiting are being treated as tourists. Seems perfectly fair to me! Though obviously, and sadly, could cause problems for some cases such as 'last chance to see' ones, or for funerals, such as I had - twice.

Btw. Are you or someone close to you actually an NZ citizen?  Or are you simply commenting as an 'outsider'?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe do your own research before comparing me to those rags. 


If you are unvaccinated you cannot return to your resident country. Regardless of your opinion on the benefits of vaccination. That is not ok with me.


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## DanFST (Jan 28, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The fact is that NZ acted faster and harder and it paid off big time.
		
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We went into lockdown before they did.


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## upsidedown (Jan 28, 2022)

DanFST said:



			We went into lockdown before they did.
		
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UK went into lockdown 51 days after first confirmed case  and NZ went into lockdown 25 days after first confirmed case so one could argue they went into lockdown before UK


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2022)

Ethan said:



			But that is irrelevant. Transmissibility is not greater in larger populations per se. Cities in NZ have a high population density. The top half of Scotland has a low density.

The fact is that NZ acted faster and harder and it paid off big time. You can argue that this would not have been possible in the UK, but you can't really argue that it was not he cause of the vastly superior outcomes.

As I said above, there was a natural experiment in the Nordics. Norway, Sweden and Finland all have very similar populations, demographics, climate and culture, and open borders. Norway and Finland each had at least a 5 fold lower death rate than Sweden. The only real difference was the public health policy.
		
Click to expand...

I realise you will not be swayed and so further granularity would be wasted. 

e.g NZ has a tunnel of abouts 4km! London Underground carries a many passengers in a day as NZ trains in a year. In fact the whole public mass transit systems are widely different so millions more people in the UK travel in very close proximity. Its also well known that atmospheric pollution is higher in London impacting the level of respiratory infections.

Consequently, comparing  any social and spatial variables, the UK with NZ and the resultant policy is plain silly.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 28, 2022)

drdel said:



			I realise you will not be swayed and so further granularity would be wasted.

e.g NZ has a tunnel of abouts 4km! London Underground carries a many passengers in a day as NZ trains in a year. In fact the whole public mass transit systems are widely different so millions more people in the UK travel in very close proximity. Its also well known that atmospheric pollution is higher in London impacting the level of respiratory infections.

Consequently, comparing  any social and spatial variables, the UK with NZ and the resultant policy is plain silly.
		
Click to expand...

The only people comparing NZ to the UK is those looking to find fault with the NZ way of behaving during the pandemic.

Somewhat along the lines of “well it was quite easy to do what they did and it wouldn’t of worked for the UK as we are…”

Why not just admire a.n.other Country for taking a different approach that may prove to of been sensible in dealing with the pandemic.


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2022)

DanFST said:



			...
If you are unvaccinated you cannot return to your resident country. Regardless of your opinion on the benefits of vaccination. That is not ok with me.
		
Click to expand...


Very simple and sensible fix to that then - assuming there's no underlying issues preventing it!
Btw.You don't appear to have answered my earlier question. Are you or someone dear to you an NZ citizen?


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2022)

drdel said:



			...
Consequently, comparing  any social and spatial variables, the UK with NZ and the resultant policy is plain silly.
		
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Totally agree! Especially if the 'comparison' is the vehement criticism of the, up until now, very successful policy! And, likewise, what NZ did was never a realistic policy to adopt here in UK, so there's no reason to 'attack NZ's approach as a defense of UK's'.
FWIW. You are wrong about the length of the longest tunnel...try nearly 9Km. But that's chickenfeed compared to The Underground.
Though there is also a 6 mile invisible piece of miraculous engineering feeding an underground power station 
https://www.nzgeo.com/video/manapuri-the-toughest-tunnel/


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## Foxholer (Jan 28, 2022)

upsidedown said:



			UK went into lockdown 51 days after first confirmed case  and NZ went into lockdown 25 days after first confirmed case so one could argue they went into lockdown before UK

Click to expand...

Faster certainly - as Ethan posted. But UK locked down 'before' NZ - by 2 or 3 days. 23rd March cf 25/26 March


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## drdel (Jan 28, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			The only people comparing NZ to the UK is those looking to find fault with the NZ way of behaving during the pandemic.

Somewhat along the lines of “well it was quite easy to do what they did and it wouldn’t of worked for the UK as we are…”

Why not just admire a.n.other Country for taking a different approach that may prove to of been sensible in dealing with the pandemic.
		
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You miss-read and you're just shooting the messenger.

Who is trying to find fault? I have not said one word of criticism of NZ. I am saying the comparison is wrong and thus the pseudo policy jibes are not founded in logic and is merely point scoring'petti-frogging'  - to quote a recently resurrected term.

Such international 'league table' games are best left to the reporters as to make any robust comparison is way more complex.

I am glad I am in the UK but that does not say I'd be unhappy were I in NZ.


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2022)

Great to see some positive action being taken by some 'traditional' influencers in the music industry.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-60177933
I'm all for folk challenging draconian government action - as those taking action as above certainly did 'in their heyday'. But there's a point where 'influencers' can have , well...too much influence, just as ancient musicians can too mind - though they have personal experience of what benefit vaccines can have.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 29, 2022)

drdel said:



			You miss-read and you're just shooting the messenger.

Who is trying to find fault? I have not said one word of criticism of NZ. I am saying the comparison is wrong and thus the pseudo policy jibes are not founded in logic and is merely point scoring'petti-frogging'  - to quote a recently resurrected term.

Such international 'league table' games are best left to the reporters as to make any robust comparison is way more complex.

I am glad I am in the UK but that does not say I'd be unhappy were I in NZ.
		
Click to expand...

And I never said you have criticised NZ, I was explaining why Ethan responded the way he did.


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## Ethan (Jan 29, 2022)

drdel said:



			I realise you will not be swayed and so further granularity would be wasted.

e.g NZ has a tunnel of abouts 4km! London Underground carries a many passengers in a day as NZ trains in a year. In fact the whole public mass transit systems are widely different so millions more people in the UK travel in very close proximity. Its also well known that atmospheric pollution is higher in London impacting the level of respiratory infections.

Consequently, comparing  any social and spatial variables, the UK with NZ and the resultant policy is plain silly.
		
Click to expand...

If by further granularity, you mean scientifically valid theories or facts, not wasted at all. Have at it. you seem to think I am not persuaded by science. I change my mind every day based on new stuff that I read. But it needs to be credible and relevant. 

Let's agree that NZ has a smaller population than London. What I am interested in is any valid argument that makes a difference to per capita rates.


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## DanFST (Jan 29, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Let's agree that NZ has a smaller population than London. What I am interested in is any valid argument that makes a difference to per capita rates.
		
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If we assume that we had our first unrecorded case in London before they did (highly probable). 

- New Zealand has the fourth-highest rate of per-capita car ownership in the world. This statistic is keenly felt in Auckland, which combines those high rates of car ownership with one of the lowest rates of patronage of public transport in the world.
- London has a car ownership rate of 50%, with one of the highest rates of patronage of public transport in the world.  More people take the just the tube daily, than the NZ population. 

With what we know now. This is perfect fertile ground for the spread, which will in turn increase deaths.


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## road2ruin (Jan 29, 2022)

So our hopes of getting our daughter back to school have been dashed. A test this morning appears to show she’s even more infected than she was on Tuesday!!

Interestingly the tone of the class WhatsApp group has changed. A fair few of the class tested positive just before the end of term in December. All asymptomatic and all ended up having to isolate for the 10 days. Now, a month of so later they’re having to do the same even though the kids are all fine. The general consensus seems to be that they are all going to stop testing now, if the child is ill or showing symptoms then they’ll test. If they’re well then they will not. 

We’ve been very lucky, this is the first time that any of us have had to isolate however I have sympathy for those who have well children at home who are facing having them indoors for 20 odd days with the space of 5 weeks.


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## Ethan (Jan 29, 2022)

DanFST said:



			If we assume that we had our first unrecorded case in London before they did (highly probable).

- New Zealand has the fourth-highest rate of per-capita car ownership in the world. This statistic is keenly felt in Auckland, which combines those high rates of car ownership with one of the lowest rates of patronage of public transport in the world.
- London has a car ownership rate of 50%, with one of the highest rates of patronage of public transport in the world.  More people take the just the tube daily, than the NZ population.

With what we know now. This is perfect fertile ground for the spread, which will in turn increase deaths.
		
Click to expand...

Tokyo has the highest density of people in a major metropolis and very high usage of public transport. It has had a very low number of cases. The transport differences in London were rendered irrelevant by work from home and closed hospitality with London looking like a post-apocalyptic wasteland soon after the start of the pandemic. 

There are clearly a number of factors at work, but it takes a lot of factors to explain such a ginormous difference in outcomes between UK and NZ and transport or pop density together don't come close. 

And it doesn't matter if all the citizens of NZ could fit onto one floor of a London bus. We use per capita rates.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 29, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So our hopes of getting our daughter back to school have been dashed. A test this morning appears to show she’s even more infected than she was on Tuesday!!

Interestingly the tone of the class WhatsApp group has changed. A fair few of the class tested positive just before the end of term in December. All asymptomatic and all ended up having to isolate for the 10 days. Now, a month of so later they’re having to do the same even though the kids are all fine. The general consensus seems to be that they are all going to stop testing now, if the child is ill or showing symptoms then they’ll test. If they’re well then they will not.

We’ve been very lucky, this is the first time that any of us have had to isolate however I have sympathy for those who have well children at home who are facing having them indoors for 20 odd days with the space of 5 weeks.
		
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Don’t you get a 90 day free pass after you’ve tested +ve?


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## road2ruin (Jan 29, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Don’t you get a 90 day free pass after you’ve tested +ve?
		
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I don’t know? I’ll have a search online.


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## road2ruin (Jan 29, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Don’t you get a 90 day free pass after you’ve tested +ve?
		
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I’ve had a Google and there isn’t a clear answer that I can find. I think the issue is going to be the messaging from the school and I’m not sure whether they are following DofE guidelines or just being overly cautious. 

The Government advice is:

_If you have previously received a positive COVID-19 test result, you are advised not to take another PCRtest within 90 days of this result unless you develop any new main symptoms of COVID-19, or if you are required to take a PCR test upon entry into the UK.

If you have a positive PCR test result within 90 days of a previous positive test result you must stay at home, self-isolate and follow the steps in this guidance again._

The issue is the school are saying children are having to take a PCR as definitive proof before being allowed back. This means that they’re taking a PCR within 90 days of a previous infection which contradicts the advice above I think. The way I read the advice was that a PCR test should only be sought for Covid with symptoms. Anyway, with the above the PCR is coming back positive and so the self isolation has to start again. 

Seems to be a catch 22 but the school are adamant on their process.


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## williamalex1 (Jan 29, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			How has Coronavirus affected me? I've taken some time to mull this question recently as we approach 2 years of living with this.
How has it affected me...? At the first lockdown, I lost my job. Or more accurately, my contract was not renewed. I spent 2 months with no income and no support due to the nature of the job that I do. I was fortunate that I found a new contract quite quickly. The second lock down saw that contract be ended. Again I found myself if a limbo. But this time I was very fortunate that my contact network found me ok. But it's an incredibly difficult position to be in asking how will I support my family, keep a roof over our heads.

In the space of just over a year, I lost three people very close to me. Not one of them older than I am (43, 40 and 40). My best friend of 38 years died of a brain haemorrhage, sudden and unavoidable, but I couldn't get to say my final goodbyes to someone that had such an impact on my life and could only watch on a computer screen as he was laid to rest with only 8 of his large and tight knit family in attendance.
My childhood friend of 35 years succumbed to a cancer that went untreated in it's most vital stage because treatment was not available in a timely manner. I was lucky enough to be in a small group of 15 people that were allowed to attend the funeral and say goodbye.
A man that is less of a friend and more of a brother from another mother (and co-best man at my wedding) lost his wife to suicide caused by being removed from everything and everyone that she loved, as a very social person lockdown hit hard and the mental impact was too great. A brilliant, warm, funny and compassionate person lost forever. A family of 3 teenagers and a husband stripped of their mother and their wife.

What's the point of this? Well, it's primarily answering the question, how has Coronavirus affected me. Quite strongly it would seem. Financial impact, mental and emotional impact and loss of people who didn't have or die FROM covid.

There's no real point other than that, and just to get my musings of the last day or so out of the head and in to the ether.

This thread has mainly become about should we have done this or should we have done that and whether or not the lockdowns had any impact. Believe me when I say, they might not have for you, and I am genuinely happy for you if they didn't, but be assured that for others, they and the wider effects of Covid certainly did.
		
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On the bright side Greg you're looking better in your Avatar


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## Foxholer (Jan 29, 2022)

DanFST said:



			If we assume that we had our first unrecorded case in London before they did (highly probable).

- New Zealand has the fourth-highest rate of per-capita car ownership in the world. This statistic is keenly felt in Auckland, which combines those high rates of car ownership with one of the lowest rates of patronage of public transport in the world.
- London has a car ownership rate of 50%, with one of the highest rates of patronage of public transport in the world.  More people take the just the tube daily, than the NZ population.

With what we know now. This is perfect fertile ground for the spread, which will in turn increase deaths.
		
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You are making an excellent case for each country taking different approaches to handling the pandemic!


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## drdel (Jan 29, 2022)

Ethan said:



			If by further granularity, you mean scientifically valid theories or facts, not wasted at all. Have at it. you seem to think I am not persuaded by science. I change my mind every day based on new stuff that I read. But it needs to be credible and relevant.

Let's agree that NZ has a smaller population than London. What I am interested in is any valid argument that makes a difference to per capita rates.
		
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There is little point in going further along this tangent. My deduction is that you're only really interested in your own view. Pretty much every bit of social interaction and spatial (O/D) data is different between the UK and NZ. 

I'm out of this line of non- debate.


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## Ethan (Jan 29, 2022)

drdel said:



			There is little point in going further along this tangent. My deduction is that you're only really interested in your own view. Pretty much every bit of social interaction and spatial (O/D) data is different between the UK and NZ.

I'm out of this line of non- debate.
		
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Your deceptive powers fail you. I was interested in hearing some substance, but perhaps there is none.

I recently chatted to an international expert in public health (who is on the tellybox quite often) about some of these issues. He seemed to think it was quite possible and even necessary to make reasonable comparisons between countries. What an idiot, eh?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 29, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So our hopes of getting our daughter back to school have been dashed. A test this morning appears to show she’s even more infected than she was on Tuesday!!

Interestingly the tone of the class WhatsApp group has changed. A fair few of the class tested positive just before the end of term in December. All asymptomatic and all ended up having to isolate for the 10 days. Now, a month of so later they’re having to do the same even though the kids are all fine. The general consensus seems to be that they are all going to stop testing now, if the child is ill or showing symptoms then they’ll test. If they’re well then they will not.

We’ve been very lucky, this is the first time that any of us have had to isolate however I have sympathy for those who have well children at home who are facing having them indoors for 20 odd days with the space of 5 weeks.
		
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That’s the exact same situation with us 

Little ones test yesterday the second line came out within minutes and was a clear line this time 

She is still fine apart from being full of snot 😂 - think it’s also happening at the same time as a growth spurt so hasn’t stopped eating. Will need a week off when she goes back to school 

Did hear that make kids are having the positive tests for the full 10 days - wonder if it’s because of the lack of vaccine for them


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## larmen (Jan 29, 2022)

Positive again, that means no early release tomorrow but on Monday I am free anyway.
Feeling really weak and tired today. No fever, but erratic readings on the oxymeter.


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## Mudball (Jan 29, 2022)

The new guidelines a bit of a joke.  I would say something more but it will be framed as political.

Masks have been off in classrooms since Monday and completely off since Thursday in communal areas.  Son just tested positive. Big uptick in students and Teachers testing positive. Got a mail from school saying they are monitoring and may reintroduce compulsory mask irrespective of govt guidelines

Friends who have got it this time (incl a teacher friend who got on Tuesday after masks were removed on Monday) have been isolating. Guidelines say 5 days and need 2 negative tests. None of those who tested have got negative in 5 days. 111 says it ‘generally’ takes 8 days!! So what’s the point in this pointless political gamesmanship of ‘opening up’ and the myth of shortening isolations. I rather trust the NHS, wear masks, do RT-PCR and isolate for 10 days.

Given the son now has brought it home, just a matter of time for someone in the family to get it.


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## Mudball (Jan 29, 2022)

Any recommendations on Oxymeters?


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## road2ruin (Jan 30, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That’s the exact same situation with us

Little ones test yesterday the second line came out within minutes and was a clear line this time

She is still fine apart from being full of snot 😂 - think it’s also happening at the same time as a growth spurt so hasn’t stopped eating. Will need a week off when she goes back to school

Did hear that make kids are having the positive tests for the full 10 days - wonder if it’s because of the lack of vaccine for them
		
Click to expand...

Randomly today's test is completely negative!


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## Tashyboy (Jan 31, 2022)

Had a discussion yesterday with my lad re the true fatality rate of COVID. He quoted it’s only 17 thousand  have died. The others had underlying factors or health issues. I pointed out that I could understand 17k if the countries population were all fit and healthy and not vulnerable. But there not. COVID was the straw that broke the camels back. 
Ave had me mornings peruse on news sites, FB etc and the 17k figure is posted a few times on FB. inc from that fountain of Knowledge Nigel Farage. I get folk want to get back to normal. But stating only 17K as a figure seems a bit desperate and pathetic to me.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 31, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a discussion yesterday with my lad re the true fatality rate of COVID. He quoted it’s only 17 thousand  have died. The others had underlying factors or health issues. I pointed out that I could understand 17k if the countries population were all fit and healthy and not vulnerable. But there not. COVID was the straw that broke the camels back.
Ave had me mornings peruse on news sites, FB etc and the 17k figure is posted a few times on FB. inc from that fountain of Knowledge Nigel Farage. I get folk want to get back to normal. But stating only 17K as a figure seems a bit desperate and pathetic to me.
		
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Been discussed on here. Go back and read from post #24903 and see the following posts for the explanation.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 31, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Had a discussion yesterday with my lad re the true fatality rate of COVID. He quoted it’s only 17 thousand  have died. The others had underlying factors or health issues. I pointed out that I could understand 17k if the countries population were all fit and healthy and not vulnerable. But there not. COVID was the straw that broke the camels back.
Ave had me mornings peruse on news sites, FB etc and the 17k figure is posted a few times on FB. inc from that fountain of Knowledge Nigel Farage. I get folk want to get back to normal. But stating only 17K as a figure seems a bit desperate and pathetic to me.
		
Click to expand...

I think the best way to gauge, we will never have a perfect answer, is to look at the excess deaths figure. This is the extra number of deaths based against the average figure of deaths in a year. It will not be as high as the 'with covid' figure as that is a catch all figure, but I am sure it will be much greater than 17k still. I haven't seen the number recently but after the first year of covid it was still pretty scary.

The govt give these figures out https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/excess-mortality-in-england-weekly-reports but trying to decipher these things hurt my head so I will leave it to others.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 31, 2022)

For those that didn’t see the “debunking” of the 17,000 figure:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485570730867765251


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## Tashyboy (Jan 31, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Been discussed on here. Go back and read from post #24903 and see the following posts for the explanation.

Click to expand...

👍 just read it and cheers for the pointer.


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## Tashyboy (Jan 31, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			For those that didn’t see the “debunking” of the 17,000 figure:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485570730867765251

Click to expand...

A fantastic explained response 👍


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## road2ruin (Jan 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Randomly today's test is completely negative!
		
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So we're now back to 'lots of Covid' on the tests so looks like we're unlikely to be allowed out any earlier than the 10 days. I wonder whether the 5 day thing is a bit of a red herring, make people feel as though their isolation period won't be as long as it used to be. How many actually get let out early? Most of my friends who have had it were still testing positive right up until the last day, some even after being released. 

Wife is now positive on a PCR, I'm still negative on LFT's with no symptoms.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So we're now back to 'lots of Covid' on the tests so looks like we're unlikely to be allowed out any earlier than the 10 days. I wonder whether the 5 day thing is a bit of a red herring, make people feel as though their isolation period won't be as long as it used to be. How many actually get let out early? Most of my friends who have had it were still testing positive right up until the last day, some even after being released.

Wife is now positive on a PCR, I'm still negative on LFT's with no symptoms.
		
Click to expand...

The littles ones at day 8 now , yesterday it’s was a thin line , wife at day 5 - taking a year later.  I’m still testing negative and no symptoms at all 

Think the wife will be fine in a day or so and guess the little will do the full 10 days


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## Tashyboy (Jan 31, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			For those that didn’t see the “debunking” of the 17,000 figure:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485570730867765251

Click to expand...

Just mentioned this to Missis T re the disorders folk have as they get older. Flippin eck 😳


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## D-S (Jan 31, 2022)

My M-I-L has just tested positive on a LFT. We thought we should register the result, however this link https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/test-results/positive-test-result/  suggests we do not need to. Is this right?
If so, how do authorities know who is testing positive?


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## road2ruin (Jan 31, 2022)

D-S said:



			My M-I-L has just tested positive on a LFT. We thought we should register the result, however this link https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing/test-results/positive-test-result/  suggests we do not need to. Is this right?
If so, how do authorities know who is testing positive?
		
Click to expand...

I think you are still encouraged to report the LFT result, you just don't need to get a PCR to confirm it. 

Report a COVID-19 rapid lateral flow test result - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)


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## larmen (Jan 31, 2022)

Day 11 and still showing the red line. Boris says to go back to normal?


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## Imurg (Jan 31, 2022)

This month I've lost 10 hours of work due to pupils testing positive 
So..just a 300 quid pay cut this month then.......


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## Billysboots (Jan 31, 2022)

larmen said:



			Day 11 and still showing the red line. Boris says to go back to normal?
		
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But I thought you ceased to be contagious long before day eleven. Isn’t that the key consideration?


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## larmen (Jan 31, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But I thought you ceased to be contagious long before day eleven. Isn’t that the key consideration?
		
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That’s basically my google search for the last hour ;-)


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## road2ruin (Jan 31, 2022)

larmen said:



			Day 11 and still showing the red line. Boris says to go back to normal?
		
Click to expand...

This might help assuming you hadn't found it during your Googling!
_
*What if I’m still testing positive after 10 days?*

You may leave self-isolation after your 10th full day of self-isolation even if you are still testing positive.

The only exception to this is if you still have a high temperature, or are still feeling unwell.

If you only have a cough or your sense of smell or taste remains affected, you can leave isolation.

The government guidance states: “You do not need to take any more LFD tests after the 10th day of your self-isolation period and you may stop self-isolating after this day.

“This is because you are unlikely to be infectious after the 10th day of your self-isolation period.

“Even if you have a positive LFD test result on the 10th day of your self-isolation period you do not need to take any more LFD tests after this day and you do not need a follow-up PCR test.

“If you are concerned you may choose to limit close contact with other people, especially those who are at higher risk of severe illness until 14 days after the start of your self-isolation period.”_


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## Imurg (Jan 31, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			This might help assuming you hadn't found it during your Googling!

_*What if I’m still testing positive after 10 days?*_

_You may leave self-isolation after your 10th full day of self-isolation even if you are still testing positive._

_The only exception to this is if you still have a high temperature, or are still feeling unwell._

_If you only have a cough or your sense of smell or taste remains affected, you can leave isolation._

_The government guidance states: “You do not need to take any more LFD tests after the 10th day of your self-isolation period and you may stop self-isolating after this day._

_“This is because you are unlikely to be infectious after the 10th day of your self-isolation period._

_“Even if you have a positive LFD test result on the 10th day of your self-isolation period you do not need to take any more LFD tests after this day and you do not need a follow-up PCR test._

_“If you are concerned you may choose to limit close contact with other people, especially those who are at higher risk of severe illness until 14 days after the start of your self-isolation period.”_

Click to expand...

That really sounds like they're making it up as they go along...


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## upsidedown (Jan 31, 2022)

larmen said:



			Day 11 and still showing the red line. Boris says to go back to normal?
		
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You can test positive for ages !!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2022)

larmen said:



			Day 11 and still showing the red line. Boris says to go back to normal?
		
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No he doesn't, the NHS says what you can or can't do.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			No he doesn't, the NHS says what you can or can't do.
		
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If you are going to pedantically nit pick, at least get it right!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			If you are going to pedantically nit pick, at least get it right!

Click to expand...

I believe I do have it right.  Oh! And grow up with the silly emojis.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe I do have it right.  Oh! And grow up with the silly emojis.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/

Click to expand...

NHS is only passing on the info from the agency that's responsible for 'saying what you can/can't do' (setting guidance and regulation) - its sister org UK Health Security Agency. Both come under the Department of Health and Social Care.
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-health-security-agency


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			NHS is only passing on the info from the agency that's responsible for 'saying what you can/can't do' (setting guidance and regulation) - its sister org UK Health Security Agency. Both come under the Department of Health and Social Care.
		
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As I have shown 'We'  the public are informed of the rules by the NHS And is that agency 'Boris' as suggested by the poster and supported by yourself.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 31, 2022)

Imurg said:



			That really sounds like they're making it up as they go along...
		
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It's taken you 22 months to work that out?


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			As I have shown 'We'  the public are *informed* of the rules by the NHS And is that agency 'Boris' as suggested by the poster and supported by yourself.
		
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Informed..Yes. But that's not what you nit-pickingly posted!


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## SocketRocket (Jan 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:




Informed..Yes. But that's not what you nit-pickingly posted!
		
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As I suggested, grow up and stop trouble making, you know how it always ends.


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			As I suggested, grow up and stop trouble making, you know how it always ends.
		
Click to expand...


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 31, 2022)

You lot are so predictable 
Enough already 🙄


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## Foxholer (Jan 31, 2022)

For some reason, I signed up to get daily email from NY Times about Covid. I'm impressed with their coverage - if rather narrowly focused.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2022)

Covid Rates going up again along with hospitalisations, deaths down a little but still high.  Deep joy!


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## D-S (Feb 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Covid Rates going up again along with hospitalisations, deaths down a little but still high.  Deep joy!
		
Click to expand...

I believe the rate jump is due to the dashboard now including re infections - the gurus warned that this would give an increase to the numbers. Also hospitalisations are now on the way down in England at least.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 1, 2022)

D-S said:



			I believe the rate jump is due to the dashboard now including re infections - the gurus warned that this would give an increase to the numbers. Also hospitalisations are now on the way down in England at least.
		
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Amazed people carry on testing now…….


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 1, 2022)

We are worrying about our lad.  Had covid back in mid December and still struggling with fatigue.  Not great when your job requires you to be working to 3am, then up a few hours later to travel home or to next venue...means he's having to decline some work.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are worrying about our lad.  Had covid back in mid December and still struggling with fatigue.  Not great when your job requires you to be working to 3am, then up a few hours later to travel home or to next venue...means he's having to decline some work.
		
Click to expand...

Wheni got COVID the first time, I could be breathing normal and then have to take a couple of deep breaths as if I had to top up. I could feel shattered for no reason what so ever.  Thankfully it has now passed.
The second time, my eyes could just feel as heavy as anything All of a sudden.


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## road2ruin (Feb 1, 2022)

Finally tested positive, taken over a week of living with a 7yr old who was covered in Covid and a wife who tested positive a few days after. Looks like my excuses of not being able to complete a load of DIY tasks are going to be sorely tested over the next week or so…….


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## SocketRocket (Feb 1, 2022)

D-S said:



			I believe the rate jump is due to the dashboard now including re infections - the gurus warned that this would give an increase to the numbers. Also hospitalisations are now on the way down in England at least.
		
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Hospitalisations were up on today's numbers.
Are reinfections not infections?


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## Foxholer (Feb 1, 2022)

D-S said:





SocketRocket said:



			Covid Rates going up again along with hospitalisations, deaths down a little but still high.  Deep joy!
		
Click to expand...

I believe the rate jump is due to the dashboard now including re infections - the gurus warned that this would give an increase to the numbers. Also hospitalisations are now on the way down in England at least.
		
Click to expand...

I'm more inclined to believe it's because of a lag recording/delivering case number stats from the weekend. I've noticed that several times in the past. For 'daily cases' I only really look at Wednesday through Friday for any trends, as I consider other days 'unreliable'.


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## chellie (Feb 2, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Amazed people carry on testing now…….
		
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Some of us have no choice due to work.


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## Hobbit (Feb 2, 2022)

A bunch of figures issued for Andalucia. Only 4.7% of people haven’t been vaccinated. 70% of those in hospital haven’t been vaccinated. Of those that have died of Covid in the last month, all were unvaccinated.


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Hospitalisations were up on today's numbers.
Are reinfections not infections?
		
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll cherry-pick some good news....
Cases last 7 days...down 2.2%
Deaths last 7 days...down 12.3%
People admitted to hospital last 7 days...down 11.9%
Patient numbers in ICU have fallen every day for the last 17 days
91% of people aged over 12 have had a vaccine


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## RichA (Feb 2, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Amazed people carry on testing now…….
		
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I'll keep testing when I'm visiting elderly relatives. Even vaccinated, they are still vulnerable.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 2, 2022)

Day 8 or 9 depending where I draw the line and still testing positive on LFD. 

So far beyond the limit of being sick of this sodding house now. Want to sell up but can’t find a tradesman to actually turn up and do the work they’ve quoted for. 

And my coffee tastes wrong now.

Fed up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2022)

RichA said:



			I'll keep testing when I'm visiting elderly relatives. Even vaccinated, they are still vulnerable.
		
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Likewise when visiting mil and bil. His vulnerability is going to go through the roof as is most likely going to have a stem cell transplant if they can find a donor...as that is very unlikely to be my Mrs or mil.

So with spread of the virus in the community now basically uncontrolled we will have to be mega cautious.  I am assuming that all coming near him whilst he is in hospital...three weeks likely...will be fully vaccinated.

First though he has to complete six cycles of chemo...and as done as an outpatient and it makes him immunocompromised we have to take great care.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Day 8 or 9 depending where I draw the line and still testing positive on LFD.

So far beyond the limit of being sick of this sodding house now. Want to sell up but can’t find a tradesman to actually turn up and do the work they’ve quoted for.

And my coffee tastes wrong now.

Fed up.
		
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Coffee always tastes wrong to me when I'm ill and it is depressing. Might not work for you but, for me, hot blackcurrant (Ribena although other brands available) really seems to hit the spot.


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Likewise when visiting mil and bil. His vulnerability is going to go through the roof as is most likely going to have a stem cell transplant if they can find a donor...as that is very unlikely to be my Mrs or mil.

So with spread of the virus in the community now basically uncontrolled we will have to be mega cautious.  I am assuming that all coming near him whilst he is in hospital...three weeks likely...will be fully vaccinated.

First though he has to complete six cycles of chemo...and as done as an outpatient and it makes him immunocompromised we have to take great care.
		
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Good luck for your BIL although I suspect that whilst you can manage Covid in his home when visiting it's his stay in hospital that'll be the time when he's most vulnerable to it regardless of vaccination status of those treating him. Fingers crossed.


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## GB72 (Feb 2, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Coffee always tastes wrong to me when I'm ill and it is depressing. Might not work for you but, for me, hot blackcurrant (Ribena although other brands available) really seems to hit the spot.
		
Click to expand...

Other brands are not available, there is no blackcurrant drink that is anywhere near being in the same league as Ribena.


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Coffee always tastes wrong to me when I'm ill and it is depressing. Might not work for you but, for me, hot blackcurrant (Ribena although other brands available) really seems to hit the spot.
		
Click to expand...

You should try strawberry Ribena in a glass of white wine with some ice, especially on a warm lazy summers evening after walking the dogs. Feet up, shoes off. Cheers


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## D-S (Feb 2, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Hospitalisations were up on today's numbers.
Are reinfections not infections?
		
Click to expand...

Reinfections were not measured before but they are now, hence the increase in the case numbers reported.
Re hospitalisations - 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488557812561100802


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You should try strawberry Ribena in a glass of white wine with some ice, especially on a warm lazy summers evening after walking the dogs. Feet up, shoes off white stiletto's off. Cheers  

Click to expand...

Fixed that for you Bob


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Good luck for your BIL although I suspect that whilst you can manage Covid in his home when visiting it's his stay in hospital that'll be the time when he's move vulnerable to it regardless of vaccination status of those treating him. Fingers crossed.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed that is a concern we have... but given he will be in the '100% most vulnerable' category we must trust in the Sheffield Royal Hallamshire Hospital to look after him.

I just don't want to read and hear too many glib and often rather whingy comments about us all having to get on with life - having to 'learn to live' with the virus.  I get it.  However that is easy to say for the vast majority of us as there is now very little learning to do - and 'living with it' will have negligible, or at worst minimal, impact on how we live our lives.  But for others, and not an insignificant few, that is just not the case.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Day 8 or 9 depending where I draw the line and still testing positive on LFD.

So far beyond the limit of being sick of this sodding house now. Want to sell up but can’t find a tradesman to actually turn up and do the work they’ve quoted for.

And my coffee tastes wrong now.

Fed up.
		
Click to expand...

The daughter is now on day 9 , still a faint second line 

Wife on day 6 - still a faint line 

Both of feeling fine but getting annoyed 

I’m still negative 🤷‍♂️


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## bobmac (Feb 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Fixed that for you Bob 

Click to expand...

I can't see Amanda wearing white stilettos whilst walking the dogs.


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## larmen (Feb 2, 2022)

Junior on day 9 still positive. Tomorrow is day 10 and then he can/must go back to school on Friday.
Anyone can recommend a boarding school which still takes pupils that late in the year? ;-)


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## AmandaJR (Feb 2, 2022)

I can't see Amanda wearing stilettos of any colour without surely breaking her ankle 

I like the idea of strawberry Ribena with (alcohol-free!) white wine and a home grown strawberry in there too...hopefully they'll grow and I'll let you know


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## road2ruin (Feb 2, 2022)

larmen said:



			Junior on day 9 still positive. Tomorrow is day 10 and then he can/must go back to school on Friday.
Anyone can recommend a boarding school which still takes pupils that late in the year? ;-)
		
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Looks like ours are going back on the same day. We've stopped testing her now as even with two clear negatives she's not going back any earlier!

If you find a boarding school with space do let me know!


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## Jimaroid (Feb 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The daughter is now on day 9 , still a faint second line

Wife on day 6 - still a faint line

Both of feeling fine but getting annoyed

I’m still negative 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

It is weird isn't it. Daughter hit day 10 and is back at school today.

I had to do an "eye test" and drive her to school. I'm supposed to be isolating but she's got to go back. It's stupid.

Absolutely gagging to get out at the weekend. And the weather forecast is, of course, abysmal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			It is weird isn't it. Daughter hit day 10 and is back at school today.

I had to do an "eye test" and drive her to school. I'm supposed to be isolating but she's got to go back. It's stupid.

Absolutely gagging to get out at the weekend. And the weather forecast is, of course, abysmal.
		
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My wife looks like she is going to miss her second hockey match - the team lost their three best players to Covid whilst going for promotion- if she can’t play this Saturday she is going to be gutted . She needs to be negative tomorrow


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## GreiginFife (Feb 2, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My wife looks like she is going to miss her second hockey match - the team lost their three best players to Covid whilst going for promotion- if she can’t play this Saturday she is going to be gutted . She needs to be negative tomorrow
		
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Has the team got the other three back yet though… 🤔😋


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 2, 2022)

GreiginFife said:



			Has the team got the other three back yet though… 🤔😋
		
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You can tell her that 🤣🤣

they could have postponed the match last weekend but they went ahead - and lost , I’m calling it hockeygate at the moment as the debrief is still going on


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Ok, I'll cherry-pick some good news....
Cases last 7 days...down 2.2%
Deaths last 7 days...down 12.3%
People admitted to hospital last 7 days...down 11.9%
Patient numbers in ICU have fallen every day for the last 17 days
91% of people aged over 12 have had a vaccine
		
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Is any of that 'Good news', it's less bad; bad news to me.  As I said infections and hospitalisations were up yesterday.  Look at the death rates today, no matter how anyone wants to view it; it's horrible news.


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## D-S (Feb 2, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Is any of that 'Good news', it's less bad; bad news to me.  As I said infections and hospitalisations were up yesterday.  Look at the death rates today, no matter how anyone wants to view it; it's horrible news.
		
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Death rates low today correct, but it was catching up on yesterday’s low number see below

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488906905070227458


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 2, 2022)

Good news bad news. Good news is we're down to 2 cases in ICU. Bad news is we're up to 100 in the trust. In other bad news my weekend ward clerk is day 6 and still testing positive. She doesn't sound good at all and so her not working again this weekend will be no bad thing as I think she's going to take some time to get over the effect


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2022)

D-S said:



			Death rates low today correct, but it was catching up on yesterday’s low number see below

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1488906905070227458

Click to expand...

I wouldn't call 534 people dead as low. Even if it is catching up for yesterday it's real people and not just numbers on a graph and only makes yesterday's numbers worse.


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## D-S (Feb 2, 2022)

I never asserted that the death rate is low, I was merely trying to give some context to your comment “look at the death rates today”. 
Even 1 death is bad but the direction of travel is more important.


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## Golfmmad (Feb 2, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Covid Rates going up again along with hospitalisations, deaths down a little but still high.  Deep joy!
		
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Its the opposite today though.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 2, 2022)

Golfmmad said:



			Its the opposite today though.
		
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The deaths aren't but I wasn't commenting on today.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 2, 2022)

totally agree with this and may have mentioned it a few times

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-do-right-thing-saved-lives-covid-lockdowns/


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## Foxholer (Feb 2, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			totally agree with this and may have mentioned it a few times

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-do-right-thing-saved-lives-covid-lockdowns/

Click to expand...

Torygraph blocks out non-subscribers after a certain number of article views.


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## bobmac (Feb 3, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Is any of that 'Good news', it's less bad; bad news to me.  *As I said* *infections and hospitalisations were up yesterday*.
		
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I guess your glass is half empty


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## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2022)

Some good news for some then.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-60238867
I presume evidence of a negative test would also be needed before being able to board a flight 'home' already.


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## pendodave (Feb 3, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Torygraph blocks out non-subscribers after a certain number of article views.
		
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If you turn off javascript in your browser (some allow you to do it for specific sites) you can browse indefinitely.  Just turn it back on when you've finished. Then wash your hands...


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## chrisd (Feb 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Good news bad news. Good news is we're down to 2 cases in ICU. Bad news is we're up to 100 in the trust. In other bad news my weekend ward clerk is day 6 and still testing positive. She doesn't sound good at all and so her not working again this weekend will be no bad thing as I think she's going to take some time to get over the effect
		
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Has she had her jabs?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 3, 2022)

chrisd said:



			Has she had her jabs?
		
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Yep. fully jabbed


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## Jimaroid (Feb 3, 2022)

Day 10 in a few hours if I cheat slightly, still LFD positive but I’ve had enough and shall be waking the daughter to school like a dog off its lead.


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			totally agree with this and may have mentioned it a few times

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-do-right-thing-saved-lives-covid-lockdowns/

Click to expand...

Even if you accept at face value what this study says, and it has some problems, it doesn't mean what the usual suspects are saying it means. 

Social distancing and all that stuff works, that is a fact, not an opinion. If people are sensible enough to do it without a mandate, fine, in that case a mandate is not needed. But the study does not evaluate the effect of moving from a mandate to relying on people's good sense. There is adequate evidence that there is insufficient good sense around. You, for example, declared around 'Freedom Day' that you would not wear a mask again unless required by law to do so.


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## chrisd (Feb 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Yep. fully jabbed
		
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Then I wish her well


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## Fade and Die (Feb 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Even if you accept at face value what this study says, and it has some problems, it doesn't mean what the usual suspects are saying it means.

Social distancing and all that stuff works, that is a fact, not an opinion. If people are sensible enough to do it without a mandate, fine, in that case a mandate is not needed. But the study does not evaluate the effect of moving from a mandate to relying on people's good sense. There is adequate evidence that there is insufficient good sense around. You, for example, declared around 'Freedom Day' that you would not wear a mask again unless required by law to do so.
		
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I mean, I suppose you know best but this WHO report shows that Non Pharmaceutical Public health measures have virtually no effect on a Pandemic. 

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...IHM-GIP-2019.1-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			totally agree with this and may have mentioned it a few times

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-do-right-thing-saved-lives-covid-lockdowns/

Click to expand...

If I have Covid but we’re 10 miles apart due to lockdown you won’t catch it from me. Also, it drives the R number down which protects the NHS. That doesn’t mean you won’t get it at a later date but it stops you getting it when I have it, ergo although we both get it, getting it at different times flattens the peaks.

Stretching the time of the spread also creates a window for more people to be vaccinated, lessening the impact on them or even stopping them from getting it. Again, that protects the NHS.

Without lockdowns there would be more linearity in the infection and mortality rates. Nah, I think the piece is a crock…


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## bobmac (Feb 3, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			I mean, I suppose you know best but this WHO report shows that Non Pharmaceutical Public health measures have virtually no effect on a Pandemic.

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...IHM-GIP-2019.1-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Click to expand...

How up to date is that report?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 3, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Day 10 in a few hours if I cheat slightly, still LFD positive but I’ve had enough and shall be waking the daughter to school like a dog off its lead.
		
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Last day for the daughter today - the Tasmanian Devil is going back to school tomorrow 😂😂

The wife on day 8 - still testing positive and line still pretty thick


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			I guess your glass is half empty
		
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I guess your glasses are Rosey.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			totally agree with this and may have mentioned it a few times

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-do-right-thing-saved-lives-covid-lockdowns/

Click to expand...

Totally agree with this.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/#mds310163-bib-0072


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## RichA (Feb 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Social distancing and all that stuff works, that is a fact, not an opinion.* If people are sensible enough to do it without a mandate, fine, in that case a mandate is not needed. *But the study does not evaluate the effect of moving from a mandate to relying on people's good sense...
		
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Given that London Underground have signs and announcements reminding travellers that use of electric unicycles in stations and on platforms is forbidden, that's a big "if" for some of our citizens.


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2022)

RichA said:



			Given that London Underground have signs and announcements reminding travellers that use of electric unicycles in stations and on platforms is forbidden, that's a big "if" for some of our citizens.
		
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Damn, I was thinking of getting a new unicycle.


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## Mudball (Feb 3, 2022)

The no-mask in school now playing thru...  half of our kids footy team now tested positive this week.  They are all in different schools.   Half of my son's class now on online lessons.    In some ways, I am assuming it is ok for it to go thru the kids system.  The only worrying bit is that there seems to be some case of reinfections too.   One of the boys has got it the second time around in 6 weeks.   Whatsapp messages says first it was Delta and now its Omicron..


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Damn, I was thinking of getting a new unicycle.
		
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Just don't get an electric one and you'll be fine. Unless the sign specifically bans them as well as electric ones.


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## Jimaroid (Feb 3, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Whatsapp messages says first it was Delta and now its Omicron..
		
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How do they know? None of the positive testing results my family got mentioned the variants.


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## larmen (Feb 3, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Last day for the daughter today - the Tasmanian Devil is going back to school tomorrow 😂😂
		
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Same here. School gates open at 8:40, will be in the queue at 8:25 to drop him off 1st. ;-) 8:42 I am back home for some quiet time before work.

Weekend will be outside, even if it rains.


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## road2ruin (Feb 3, 2022)

larmen said:



			Same here. School gates open at 8:40, will be in the queue at 8:25 to drop him off 1st. ;-) 8:42 I am back home for some quiet time before work.

Weekend will be outside, even if it rains.
		
Click to expand...

Yep, same here, gates open at 8:45am and we'll be there early to chuck her over the fence and enjoy a Friday of (relative) peace!!

Wife is due to be released on Saturday and, baring the two days of negative tests, I think I am Tuesday.


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## Mudball (Feb 3, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			How do they know? None of the positive testing results my family got mentioned the variants.
		
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Even I was confused,.. just re-read the message in WA.... i think, there it was sarcasm..  _'twice in 6 weeks - must’ve been lucky enough to get delta last time and omicron this time'_


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## road2ruin (Feb 3, 2022)

Mudball said:



			The only worrying bit is that there seems to be some case of reinfections too
		
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Definite reinfections at ours, loads of children/parents who had it in November/December have been or are presently infected.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 3, 2022)

bobmac said:



			How up to date is that report?
		
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It’s dated 2019 so I guess it’s coming up to 3 years old.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Even if you accept at face value what this study says, and it has some problems, it doesn't mean what the usual suspects are saying it means.

Social distancing and all that stuff works, that is a fact, not an opinion. If people are sensible enough to do it without a mandate, fine, in that case a mandate is not needed. But the study does not evaluate the effect of moving from a mandate to relying on people's good sense. There is adequate evidence that there is insufficient good sense around. You, for example, declared around 'Freedom Day' that you would not wear a mask again unless required by law to do so.
		
Click to expand...

I had no doubt that you would have major objections. Also, I do not remember ever saying that I would not wear a mask again. Indeed, I would on a busy tube or train


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## D-S (Feb 3, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489270458210000896


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## larmen (Feb 3, 2022)

Can you reinfect with the same variant? Or does it have to differ, eg alpha then delta, …


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## AmandaJR (Feb 3, 2022)

Mask wearing pretty low in Lidl today - why not just keep wearing one for now...how difficult is it really?!


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## Italian outcast (Feb 3, 2022)

Had another booster today (in France; where for various reasons I started and so continue, all for free) 
Thats 1x Johnson & Johnson - last summer - followd by 2 x Pfizer (November 2021 and now Feb 2022)

*Le monde est mon huître *


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## SatchFan (Feb 3, 2022)

I am more than happy to - a) wear a mask and, b) avoid people. In fact, b) I'd happily make a permanent arrangement.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 3, 2022)

SatchFan said:



			I am more than happy to - a) wear a mask and, b) avoid people. In fact, b) I'd happily make a permanent arrangement.
		
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With you 100%. Social Distancing is something I did way before the pandemic


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			With you 100%. Social Distancing is something I did way before the pandemic 

Click to expand...

Agreeď. Knowing the virus is a respiratory issue and highly transmissible I simply do not understand the resistance to doing a few simple things and something that seems just good sense


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## chellie (Feb 3, 2022)

I'm seriously considering getter better masks to wear. Bloke gobbed  outside Aldi doorway then came in so I gave him a wide berth then outside going to another shop there was an unmasked man (who looked like he definitely should have been wearing one) coughing and spluttering everywhere. Gave him an even wider berth.


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## Ethan (Feb 3, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I had no doubt that you would have major objections. Also, I do not remember ever saying that I would not wear a mask again. Indeed, I would on a busy tube or train
		
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OK, apologies, I stand corrected. Someone from this place did.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Mask wearing pretty low in Lidl today - why not just keep wearing one for now...how difficult is it really?!
		
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It isn't. Could say it's being Bolshie , or ill informed?  But....

Nah....can't think it's anything but being selfish.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 3, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It isn't. Could say it's being Bolshie , or ill informed?  But....

Nah....can't think it's anything but being selfish.
		
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But perfectly within the law, increasingly normal ete etc. Wear a mask if you want but try not to guilt trip others


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 3, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			But perfectly within the law, increasingly normal ete etc. Wear a mask if you want but try not to guilt trip others
		
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Why not?  It costs nothing to wear one, but not wearing may spread infection. The rates are still high enough to justify such a viewpoint.
Why don't byou spell out why it is good to not wear one instead of merely demanding your " right" to not to do so ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Mask wearing pretty low in Lidl today - why not just keep wearing one for now...how difficult is it really?!
		
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I'm afraid one obvious possible answer is linked to the Big P - just look at the front and backbenches one side of the HoC.  If I am looking for something to justify me not wearing a mask then there I have one - I don't need to look further.  That said - in the stores where I live mask wearing remains at pretty high levels.

If that's too P then my post can be deleted.  But the question is asked and it's an answer that will apply for some.  Cost and (in)convenience being irrelevant when individual choice is driven by self.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 3, 2022)

I don't need to look at what anyone else is doing to judge and know what it is right for me to do. I'm not buying the "they don't, so I won't" argument or "I haven't been told I have to so I don't have to". I take full responsibility for my decisions and actions and I choose mask, having considered how easy it is to do. Whether or not it has a huge benefit I don't know for sure but even the teensy weensy positive impact then why wouldn't I choose to take that option...

So on that basis I'll give the hardest stare I can behind my mask to those not bothering and also loudly say the word "selfish" as I pass them by.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm afraid one obvious possible answer is linked to the Big P - just look at the front and backbenches one side of the HoC.  If I am looking for something to justify me not wearing a mask then there I have one - I don't need to look further.  That said - in the stores where I live mask wearing remains at pretty high levels.

If that's too P then my post can be deleted.  But the question is asked and it's an answer that will apply for some.  Cost and (in)convenience being irrelevant when individual choice is driven by self.
		
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Why do you even need to bring politics into it at any level. Plenty of examples at a local level. I'm with Amanda and in places like supermarkets it has dropped off significantly even with some still saying they'd "prefer" customers to wear one. Levels on trains, certainly on the one I use is also down, significantly in the 12-25 year olds. The older passengers still using them


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## Leftitshort (Feb 3, 2022)

I think we should all wear masks for the foreseeable future. I don’t know about the science, but it affords  me a real sense of moral superiority. I’m pleased the guidelines have officially been changed. Now it’s really easy to spot the truly virtuous from the uncaring sociopaths.


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm afraid one obvious possible answer is linked to the Big P - just look at the front and backbenches one side of the HoC.  If I am looking for something to justify me not wearing a mask then there I have one - I don't need to look further.  That said - in the stores where I live mask wearing remains at pretty high levels.

If that's too P then my post can be deleted.  But the question is asked and it's an answer that will apply for some.  Cost and (in)convenience being irrelevant when individual choice is driven by self.
		
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Good grief do you even need to hint at politics. Surely you can behave socially responsibly without needing a law or guidance.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2022)

D-S said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489270458210000896

Click to expand...

Why keep posting this type of misinformation.  Covid isn't Flu and Flu hasn't suddenly gone away.  It's probably the way we have protected ourselves from Covid that has kept Flu at lower levels, remove them and we will have to deal with higher flu levels as well as Covid.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm afraid one obvious possible answer is linked to the Big P - just look at the front and backbenches one side of the HoC.  If I am looking for something to justify me not wearing a mask then there I have one - I don't need to look further.  That said - in the stores where I live mask wearing remains at pretty high levels.

If that's too P then my post can be deleted.  But the question is asked and it's an answer that will apply for some.  Cost and (in)convenience being irrelevant when individual choice is driven by self.
		
Click to expand...

Would you follow lemmings over a cliff? Of course you wouldn’t and you know it.


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## Foxholer (Feb 3, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Why keep posting this type of misinformation.  Covid isn't Flu and *Flu hasn't suddenly gone away*.  It's probably the way we have protected ourselves from Covid that has kept Flu at lower levels, remove them and we will have to deal with higher flu levels as well as Covid.
		
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It rather more significantly down, so virtually HAS gone away! I agree with the thought that it's Covid protection that has meant the massive reduction in Flu cases in the last 2 years. Which also challenges the assertions that protection such as masks etc make very little difference.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 3, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			I think we should all wear masks for the foreseeable future. I don’t know about the science, but it affords  me a real sense of moral superiority. I’m pleased the guidelines have officially been changed. Now it’s really easy to spot the truly virtuous from the uncaring sociopaths.
		
Click to expand...

😂😂😂

Absolutely right, and with the World Health Organisation saying after a review of 10 independent studies into mask wearing:
“_Personal hygiene measures such as hand hygiene, respiratory etiquette and face masks are widely used as non-pharmaceutical intervention measures to reduce the risk of acquiring or spreading respiratory infections, and for mitigating pandemic influenza. However, our review identified a lack of compelling evidence for the effectiveness of hand hygiene, respiratory etiquette and face masks against influenza transmission in the community. _
it’s important to identify the sociopaths . 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Why do you even need to bring politics into it at any level. Plenty of examples at a local level. I'm with Amanda and in places like supermarkets it has dropped off significantly even with some still saying they'd "prefer" customers to wear one. Levels on trains, certainly on the one I use is also down, significantly in the 12-25 year olds. The older passengers still using them
		
Click to expand...

Because there are some - possibly many - out there who are looking for *any *reason to justify their not wearing a mask.  And if they see some in positions of power and responsibility doing something - or not doing something - then they will feel quite empowered to do likewise.  

That's all. The question is asked - and indeed it is a very reasonable question to ask - but when asked you can't just ignore a possible answer - at least a possible answer for some.  Don't ask the question if the answer is not acceptable - or not acceptable for some or under some constraints.

I myself make absolutely no comment on the rights or wrong of it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Would you follow lemmings over a cliff? Of course you wouldn’t and you know it.
		
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Of course I wouldn't - and that is why I make no comment on my view on the rights or wrong of others not wearing a mask in a supermarket.  Simply make an observation about why...as that is what was asked.

As it happens yesterday evening I found myself having wandered into a supermarket without putting a mask on - I suddenly twigged and so immediately put a mask on.  Funnily enough my daughter and a pal of hers were also in - and they weren't wearing masks - they'd forgotten to bring one and when they saw me they worried that I'd pull them up   I did and directed then to Customer Service Desk where they could pick one up.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because there are some - possibly many - out there who are looking for *any *reason to justify their not wearing a mask.  And if they see some in positions of power and responsibility doing something - or not doing something - then they will feel quite empowered to do likewise. 

That's all. The question is asked - and indeed it is a very reasonable question to ask - but when asked you can't just ignore a possible answer - at least a possible answer for some.  Don't ask the question if the answer is not acceptable - or not acceptable for some or under some constraints.

I myself make absolutely no comment on the rights or wrong of it.
		
Click to expand...

A politicians answer. Do you really think people see someone in a position of power and think "hold on I better go and get my mask and put it on" Think thats stretching a point regarding politicians even for you


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 3, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A politicians answer. Do you really think people see someone in a position of power and think "hold on I better go and get my mask and put it on" Think thats stretching a point regarding politicians even for you
		
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I have absolutely no idea how many might - but neither do you nor does anyone else.  I simply posit a possible answer as to why some who choose to not wear a mask make that decision.  I make no comment on the rights or wrongs of it.  And I will not comment further on this specific question.


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## Hobbit (Feb 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course I wouldn't - and that is why I make no comment on my view on the rights or wrong of others not wearing a mask in a supermarket.  Simply make an observation about why...as that is what was asked.

As it happens yesterday evening I found myself having wandered into a supermarket without putting a mask on - I suddenly twigged and so immediately put a mask on.  Funnily enough my daughter and a pal of hers were also in - and they weren't wearing masks - they'd forgotten to bring one and when they saw me they worried that I'd pull them up   I did and directed then to Customer Service Desk where they could pick one up.
		
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But you make a point about politicians! With all the warnings you’ve had, why do you continually bring it up?


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## Leftitshort (Feb 3, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			😂😂😂

Absolutely right, and with the World Health Organisation saying after a review of 10 independent studies into mask wearing:
“_Personal hygiene measures such as hand hygiene, respiratory etiquette and face masks are widely used as non-pharmaceutical intervention measures to reduce the risk of acquiring or spreading respiratory infections, and for mitigating pandemic influenza. However, our review identified a lack of compelling evidence for the effectiveness of hand hygiene, respiratory etiquette and face masks against influenza transmission in the community. _
it’s important to identify the sociopaths . 😁
		
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The health considerations are surely secondary. What’s more important is how superior it makes me feel. It allows me to look down from the rocky outcrop of moral righteousness at all the un educated peasants below. If only I’d taken such a stance before 2020, I could be so far up my own righteous arse, I could see out of my own mouth (if it wasn’t covered with a plastic mask)


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## drdel (Feb 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have absolutely no idea how many might - but neither do you nor does anyone else.  I simply posit a possible answer as to why some who choose to not wear a mask make that decision.  I make no comment on the rights or wrongs of it.  And I will not comment further on this specific question.
		
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Sometimes it is wise to put the shovel away !


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 3, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			😂😂😂

Absolutely right, and with the World Health Organisation saying after a review of 10 independent studies into mask wearing:
“_Personal hygiene measures such as hand hygiene, respiratory etiquette and face masks are widely used as non-pharmaceutical intervention measures to reduce the risk of acquiring or spreading respiratory infections, and for mitigating pandemic influenza. However, our review identified a lack of compelling evidence for the effectiveness of hand hygiene, respiratory etiquette and face masks against influenza transmission in the community. _
it’s important to identify the sociopaths . 😁
		
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Of course this is right. I mean, all the Drs and nurses on Covid wards wearing masks etc are all mistaken and unthinking "sheep"-  duped by the manufacturers of these masks 🙄🙄🙄
Jeez!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 3, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Of course this is right. I mean, all the Drs and nurses on Covid wards wearing masks etc are all mistaken and unthinking "sheep"-  duped by the manufacturers of these masks 🙄🙄🙄
Jeez!
		
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Jeez, Don’t shoot the messenger. 🤷‍♂️
(if it’s too long for you just skip to page 99)
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...IHM-GIP-2019.1-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 3, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			The health considerations are surely secondary. What’s more important is how superior it makes me feel. It allows me to look down from the rocky outcrop of moral righteousness at all the un educated peasants below. If only I’d taken such a stance before 2020, I could be so far up my own righteous arse, I could see out of my own mouth (if it wasn’t covered with a plastic mask)
		
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You know, that isn't bad grammar for an uneducated peasant.😀


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## yandabrown (Feb 3, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Jeez, Don’t shoot the messenger. 🤷‍♂️
(if it’s too long for you just skip to page 99)
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream...IHM-GIP-2019.1-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Click to expand...

Then skip to page 106 to realise what a complete waste of time the whole report is. I guess if you are being paid to do something, you have to show some results even if they are completely meaningless. I wonder if all scientific papers are translated into English, the study relied on doing English language searches and I suspect that there would be better quality studies done on this in the far eastern countries. The conclusion about travel is based on zero scientific studies.


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## RichA (Feb 3, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Then skip to page 106 to realise what a complete waste of time the whole report is. I guess if you are being paid to do something, you have to show some results even if they are completely meaningless. I wonder if all scientific papers are translated into English, the study relied on doing English language searches and I suspect that there would be better quality studies done on this in the far eastern countries. The conclusion about travel is based on zero scientific studies.
		
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Plus the article and its research is about flu, not Covid. I think we're still prioritising the Covid pandemic.


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## Pants (Feb 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's all. The question is asked - and indeed it is a very reasonable question to ask - but when asked you can't just ignore a possible answer - at least a possible answer for some.  Don't ask the question if the answer is not acceptable - or not acceptable for some or under some constraints.

I myself make absolutely no comment on the rights or wrong of it.
		
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Ye gods!  This is almost (?) as unreadable as some of Foxy's posts!  I thought at first it was Foxy until I realised that there was only about 50% un-necessary punctuation rather that the usual 100%!!!  If only they could write in "normal" English   Still, being brought up in other countries, I suppose they have done quite well to obtain some understanding of the language and it's grammar.

Please, don't bother to nit pick my errors.  I only got an O Level


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## D-S (Feb 3, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Why keep posting this type of misinformation.  Covid isn't Flu and Flu hasn't suddenly gone away.  It's probably the way we have protected ourselves from Covid that has kept Flu at lower levels, remove them and we will have to deal with higher flu levels as well as Covid.
		
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Please explain why this is misinformation?


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## DanFST (Feb 3, 2022)

Can we just lock the thread? I don't care who wears masks, I don't care what percentage of the 12k deaths per day were suspected covid. 

It's just bickering, and after 2 years i'm so tired of it. Get jabbed, stay away from people, job done.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			The health considerations are surely secondary. What’s more important is how superior it makes me feel. It allows me to look down from the rocky outcrop of moral righteousness at all the un educated peasants below. If only I’d taken such a stance before 2020, I could be so far up my own righteous arse, I could see out of my own mouth (if it wasn’t covered with a plastic mask)
		
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That could be quite a clever post if it's point wasn't inverting it's sarcasm.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 3, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Can we just lock the thread? I don't care who wears masks, I don't care what percentage of the 12k deaths per day were suspected covid.

It's just bickering, and after 2 years i'm so tired of it. Get jabbed, stay away from people, job done.
		
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Or stay away from the thread if it has that affect.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 4, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			That could be quite a clever post if it's point wasn't inverting it's sarcasm.
		
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It’s a commentary on us all. The peasants and the pious. I wear a mask when appropriate. I just don’t wear it like a badge of honour


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## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2022)

Pants said:



			... un-necessary punctuation...
		
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Oh the irony!


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## RichA (Feb 4, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



*It’s a commentary on us all.* The peasants and the pious. I wear a mask when appropriate. I just don’t wear it like a badge of honour
		
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It's not. It's your commentary on the 2 extremes.
Most of us quietly pop on a mask to protect more vulnerable people, comply with conditions of carriage on public transport or because we're asked to by the people who own the shop we're using.
I certainly don't think it's any kind of class struggle.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 4, 2022)

RichA said:



			It's not. It's your commentary on the 2 extremes.
Most of us quietly pop on a mask to protect more vulnerable people, comply with conditions of carriage on public transport or because we're asked to by the people who own the shop we're using.
I certainly don't think it's any kind of class struggle.
		
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I think many go out of their way to not have to wear…..the I forgot it route being the easiest!


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## Fade and Die (Feb 4, 2022)

yandabrown said:



			Then skip to page 106 to realise what a complete waste of time the whole report is. I guess if you are being paid to do something, you have to show some results even if they are completely meaningless. I wonder if all scientific papers are translated into English, the study relied on doing English language searches and I suspect that there would be better quality studies done on this in the far eastern countries. The conclusion about travel is based on zero scientific studies.
		
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So dismissed because it is mainly English language studies (+ a saudi one)? Righto.



RichA said:



			Plus the article and its research is about flu, not Covid. I think we're still prioritising the Covid pandemic.
		
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Its not an article, its a report by the WHO. Obviously its about Influenza as it was published in 2019 but its surely relevant? Maybe it understates things as Corona virus is more virulent.


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 4, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			I don't need to look at what anyone else is doing to judge and know what it is right for me to do. I'm not buying the "they don't, so I won't" argument or "I haven't been told I have to so I don't have to". I take full responsibility for my decisions and actions and I choose mask, having considered how easy it is to do. Whether or not it has a huge benefit I don't know for sure but even the teensy weensy positive impact then why wouldn't I choose to take that option...

So on that basis I'll give the hardest stare I can behind my mask to those not bothering and also loudly say the word "selfish" as I pass them by.
		
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Yeah you do that.  And I'll take absolutely no notice at all of you or all the other self-appointed mask police out there.


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## road2ruin (Feb 4, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			So on that basis I'll give the hardest stare I can behind my mask to those not bothering and also loudly say the word "selfish" as I pass them by.
		
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Until you do it to the wrong person and end up in a potentially dangerous situation of your own making. I get that morally you are correct however legally you're not, people will make the decision and whilst you don't agree with it they aren't actually do anything that is against the rules. 

I stick a mask on to go into the supermarket etc, it's no great hardship however I'm certainly not going to risk getting into a fight with a non wearer over something so trivial. 

We are getting very close to the point where it will come completely down to the individual, no shows will request masks. You do what you feel is right and others will do what they want however neither side should go on the crusade to force others to do as they do IMO.


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2022)

Mask policing works both ways.....

If people want to wear masks then simply let them
If people don't want to wear masks then simply let them...
Creating tension either way is stupid....
Neither is wrong.
I wear a mask when it's appropriate, when I'm asked to and there's no good reason not to.
Life is hard enough as it is at the moment....


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2022)

So - Daughter back to school today !!! 👏👏👏 bless her she sprinted in to see her friends and was just a touch happy to be back at school she was nearly a touch overwhelmed, the house is really quiet now 

Wife on day 8 tested positive still but the line if barely noticeable so she hopefully should be clear 

And I still testing negative 🤷‍♂️

the worst thing was we got an old testing kit so had to do the tonsils as well 🤮🤮


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Mask policing works both ways.....

If people want to wear masks then simply let them
If people don't want to wear masks then simply let them...
Creating tension either way is stupid....
Neither is wrong.
I wear a mask when it's appropriate, when I'm asked to and there's no good reason not to.
Life is hard enough as it is at the moment....
		
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Summed up very well 

I’ll wear masks at certain times and where it’s deemed a requirement ie the school during drop off etc 

But it’s time for people to stop making judgments on others

Shouting out stuff because they are not wearing a mask ?! That’s just poor


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## theoneandonly (Feb 4, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Of course this is right. I mean, all the Drs and nurses on Covid wards wearing masks etc are all mistaken and unthinking "sheep"-  duped by the manufacturers of these masks 🙄🙄🙄
Jeez!
		
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Are you seriously comparing a nurse in full on ppe to shitty cloth masks worn by the masses. 😂😂😂


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## road2ruin (Feb 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So - Daughter back to school today !!! 👏👏👏 bless her she sprinted in to see her friends and was just a touch happy to be back at school she was nearly a touch overwhelmed, the house is really quiet now

Wife on day 8 tested positive still but the line if barely noticeable so she hopefully should be clear

And I still testing negative 🤷‍♂️

the worst thing was we got an old testing kit so had to do the tonsils as well 🤮🤮
		
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Same here, we walked her to the top of the drive and she was taken by another parent in the class. She was up and dressed in uniform at 7:00am!!

Wife has just tested negative so another tomorrow and she's free. I'm still positive although only very faintly so I expect I'll be released on Monday or Tuesday.


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Summed up very well

I’ll wear masks at certain times and where it’s deemed a requirement ie the school during drop off etc

But it’s time for people to stop making judgments on others

Shouting out stuff because they are not wearing a mask ?! That’s just poor
		
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Shouting out stuff is unwise and unlikely to end well, but I will continue to make judgements of those who are advised by Govt to wear masks, asked by the owner of a private establishment to do so, but choose not to do so when entering that private establishment. At the very least, it is highly discourteous.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 4, 2022)

Loudly say becomes shouting out...

Plus my loudly say, behind my mask was already a slight exaggeration  

Calm down folks.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Summed up very well

I’ll wear masks at certain times and where it’s deemed a requirement ie the school during drop off etc

But it’s time for people to stop making judgments on others

Shouting out stuff because they are not wearing a mask ?! That’s just poor
		
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Me and my Brother had to have a word with our Dad, he was becoming a real Zealot about people not wearing masks in Sainsburys, telling them to keep away from him and how selfish they were! Asked him what would he do if these poor woman's son or husband was waiting outside to confront him? Its just not worth it.

Reminded him its optional now and they have as much right to not wear a mask as he has wearing one.


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## road2ruin (Feb 4, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Loudly say becomes shouting out...

Plus my loudly say, behind my mask was already a slight exaggeration  

Calm down folks.
		
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Once masks are fully done for I will miss the ability to mouth swear words at those who annoy me. Petty I know.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Shouting out stuff is unwise and unlikely to end well, but I will continue to make judgements of those who are advised by Govt to wear masks, asked by the owner of a private establishment to do so, but choose not to do so when entering that private establishment. At the very least, it is highly discourteous.
		
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I don’t think anyone will be here the day you don’t make judgments on people 🙄

If it’s just advice then it’s up to people to process that advice for what is best for them and you should allow people to make their own choice without fear of judgment and being looked down on by people who believe their are superior 

If a private establishment has deemed masks must be worn then that’s up to them and people will be required to wear them or not being allowed to enter.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 4, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Once masks are fully done for I will miss the ability to mouth swear words at those who annoy me. Petty I know.
		
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Ditto. Plus the mask makes my hair a mess so why bother getting it ship shape. Also don't have to worry if the golf has left my with a slightly red nose and cheeks - nobody can see them anyhow!


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## bobmac (Feb 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If it’s just advice then it’s up to people to process that advice for what is *best for them*

Click to expand...

Hence Amanda's 'selfish' comment?


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don’t think anyone will be here the day you don’t make judgments on people 🙄

If it’s just advice then it’s up to people to process that advice for what is best for them and you should allow people to make their own choice without fear of judgment and being looked down on by people who believe their are superior

If a private establishment has deemed masks must be worn then that’s up to them and people will be required to wear them or not being allowed to enter.
		
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I don't make judgements on people. I make judgements on their behaviour. So do you. 

Tesco is a private establishment. They ask people to wear masks as a matter of courtesy and regard for others. Many people ignore that request. You can decide for yourself what you think that says about them, whether that makes them freedom loving libertarians or people who think it is just a cold, and I will reach my own verdict.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I don't make judgements on people. I make judgements on their behaviour. So do you.

Tesco is a private establishment. They ask people to wear masks as a matter of courtesy and regard for others. Many people ignore that request. You can decide for yourself what you think that says about them, whether that makes them freedom loving libertarians or people who think it is just a cold, and I will reach my own verdict.
		
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Or.. people who respect the law and medical advice that has deemed masks not necessary. End of. The judgemental mask police need to wind their necks in and respect the right of everyone to do as they see fit. I do not like very crowded places and avoid wherever possible. On a rammed tube, I will still wear a mask. In Tesco, I will not. And anyone having a moral judgement of me in person in a shop will politely be told the rules at first and not so politely if they want to continue on that front.


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## Neilds (Feb 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Or.. people who respect the law and medical advice that has deemed masks not necessary. End of. The judgemental mask police need to wind their necks in and respect the right of everyone to do as they see fit. I do not like very crowded places and avoid wherever possible. On a rammed tube, I will still wear a mask. In Tesco, I will not. And anyone having a moral judgement of me in person in a shop will politely be told the rules at first and not so politely if they want to continue on that front.
		
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But what about the rules that Tesco puts in place?  Is it right to ignore these?


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## GaryK (Feb 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Shouting out stuff is unwise and unlikely to end well, but I will continue to make judgements of those who are advised by Govt to wear masks, asked by the owner of a private establishment to do so, but choose not to do so when entering that private establishment. At the very least, it is highly discourteous.
		
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Establishments have had [enforced] requirements for a long time...
For example, try getting into a nightclub whilst wearing jeans & trainers - you're not going to be allowed in.

The same can apply to shops, cinemas, theatres, etc - simply publish a dress code that includes the mandatory wearing of masks.
Problem is that such establishments don't tend to have bouncers / door men controlling the entry.
Having said that, many supermarkets have a security guy situated near the entrance - maybe they can "police" the entry?


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## Ethan (Feb 4, 2022)

GaryK said:



			Establishments have had [enforced] requirements for a long time...
For example, try getting into a nightclub whilst wearing jeans & trainers - you're not going to be allowed in.

The same can apply to shops, cinemas, theatres, etc - simply publish a dress code that includes the mandatory wearing of masks.
Problem is that such establishments don't tend to have bouncers / door men controlling the entry.
Having said that, many supermarkets have a security guy situated near the entrance - maybe they can "police" the entry?
		
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I don't go to night clubs any more, but if a supermarket or shop asks customers to wear a mask, I think they should wear a mask, whether or not they think its just a cold or natural immunity will look after them. They shouldn't need a bouncer for that.


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## BiMGuy (Feb 4, 2022)

GaryK said:



			Establishments have had [enforced] requirements for a long time...
For example, try getting into a nightclub whilst wearing jeans & trainers - you're not going to be allowed in.

The same can apply to shops, cinemas, theatres, etc - simply publish a dress code that includes the mandatory wearing of masks.
Problem is that such establishments don't tend to have bouncers / door men controlling the entry.
Having said that, many supermarkets have a security guy situated near the entrance - maybe they can "police" the entry?
		
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When was the last time you went to a night club. The 90s?


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## PNWokingham (Feb 4, 2022)

Neilds said:



			But what about the rules that Tesco puts in place?  Is it right to ignore these?
		
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e

they are recommendations and not rules.


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## yandabrown (Feb 4, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			So dismissed because it is mainly English language studies
		
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No. Dismissed because of what is in the section starting on page 106. The quality of evidence was non existent for 2 measures, very low for 10 and only moderate for 2. No good or excellent evidence.

The comments on the language related to thinking how they might improve the study to include some evidence that might actually be worth something. 

Opportunity missed unfortunately.  Give it a while and there maybe significantly more evidence available for which measures actually assist the prevention of transmission of viruses generally spread through close contact.


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## GreiginFife (Feb 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			e

they are recommendations and not rules.
		
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Some recommendations are worth following though. I know of no rule that says I can't drink bleach...


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## D-S (Feb 4, 2022)

An interesting thread on patients in England being treated for COVID as opposed to patients in hospital with COVID being treated for other issues.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489609796500299779


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Or.. people who respect the law and medical advice that has deemed masks not necessary. End of. The judgemental mask police need to wind their necks in and respect the right of everyone to do as they see fit. I do not like very crowded places and avoid wherever possible. On a rammed tube, I will still wear a mask. In Tesco, I will not. And anyone having a moral judgement of me in person in a shop will politely be told the rules at first and not so politely if they want to continue on that front.
		
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Interesting report from WHO last year. The place you’re most likely to catch Covid, a supermarket… just saying.

Just been into the village for a wee glass. Had a mask on for all of 15 seconds when we walked onto the terrace at one of the bars. No one within 2m all the time we were out. No need for a mask.

What you do is up to you, and if within the rules I couldn’t be bothered tutting. What I might think if I saw you in a supermarket, based on the WHO report…


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## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2022)

D-S said:



			An interesting thread on patients in England being treated for COVID as opposed to patients in hospital with COVID being treated for other issues.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489609796500299779

Click to expand...

Thats heartening to see that the trend is downwards.
Not all good news though. I believe, unfortunately, most of the deaths are likely to be from the 'with Covid' group.


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## drdel (Feb 4, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I don't go to night clubs any more, but if a supermarket or shop asks customers to wear a mask, I think they should wear a mask, whether or not they think its just a cold or natural immunity will look after them. They shouldn't need a bouncer for that.
		
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I agree, but when the majority of staff in my local Sainsbury's ignore their own company's policy it's somewhat hypocritical.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2022)

D-S said:



			An interesting thread on patients in England being treated for COVID as opposed to patients in hospital with COVID being treated for other issues.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489609796500299779

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what point that is making.   Surely regarding Covid the only thing relevant to hospitalisation is the numbers of people in hospital ill with Covid.  Why make comparisons with people who are hospitalised with Covid who are primarily there for other reasons, is it to suggest we are all Covid paranoid.


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## Hobbit (Feb 4, 2022)

D-S said:



			An interesting thread on patients in England being treated for COVID as opposed to patients in hospital with COVID being treated for other issues.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489609796500299779

Click to expand...

Does that mean if you’re being treated for something else, the Covid you have is a weak, second class Covid? Or does it mean that because you also have other issues you’re even more vulnerable?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 4, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Does that mean if you’re being treated for something else, the Covid you have is a weak, second class Covid? Or does it mean that because you also have other issues you’re even more vulnerable?
		
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It's patients being primarily treated for Covid as opposed to those that are in there for another reason but happen to have Covid? As an example, in the first instance it's someone who has become ill after catching Covid and requires treatment for Covid and in the second it's someone that has gone in for a broken leg but who has tested positive for Covid. There are lots of people in hospital who HAVE Covid but aren't being treated FOR Covid.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's patients being primarily treated for Covid as opposed to those that are in there for another reason but happen to have Covid? As an example, in the first instance it's someone who has become ill after catching Covid and requires treatment for Covid and in the second it's someone that has gone in for a broken leg but who has tested positive for Covid. There are lots of people in hospital who HAVE Covid but aren't being treated FOR Covid.
		
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Yes, that's valid but why make an issue of it.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 4, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, that's valid but why make an issue of it.
		
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Because it gives a better picture of where we are in the pandemic and for future planning. Looking at the graph there are around 23k people in hospital with Covid. But only around 11k of those are in hospital for Covid.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Because it gives a better picture of where we are in the pandemic and for future planning. Looking at the graph there are around 23k people in hospital with Covid. But only around 11k of those are in hospital for Covid.
		
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It seems to me some are showing those stats to reinforce their views on Covid not being a concern.


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## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2022)

SocketRocket said:





ColchesterFC said:



			Because it gives a better picture of where we are in the pandemic and for future planning. Looking at the graph there are around 23k people in hospital with Covid. But only around 11k of those are in hospital for Covid.
		
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It seems to me some are showing those stats to reinforce their views on Covid not being a concern.
		
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That would have been fine if the same stats were provided at earlier stages in the pandemic, at least the Omicron portion!
Seems to me far too much of a coincidence that these stats are shown, or are leaped upon, as soon as the pendulum swings from 'because of' to 'with' Covid!


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## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Because it gives a better picture of where we are in the pandemic and for future planning. Looking at the graph there are around 23k people in hospital with Covid. But only around 11k of those are in hospital for Covid.
		
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Does it? I think it's something of a 'soundbite'! Perhaps even an opportunistic one!


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## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's patients being primarily treated for Covid as opposed to those that are in there for another reason but happen to have Covid? As an example, in the first instance it's someone who has become ill after catching Covid and requires treatment for Covid and in the second it's someone that has gone in for a broken leg but who has tested positive for Covid. *There are lots of people in hospital who HAVE Covid but aren't being treated FOR Covid.*

Click to expand...

Re the bold bit...I think you are wrong!
It's the elderly folk with typical age related degeneration/illnesses such as chronic respiratory issues (and maybe even brittle/broken legs) that are most likely to die! Are you advocating doing nothing to help them recover?


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Re the bold bit...I think you are wrong!
It's the elderly folk with typical age related degeneration/illnesses such as chronic respiratory issues (and maybe even brittle/broken legs) that are most likely to die! *Are you advocating doing nothing to help them recover?*

Click to expand...

Not at all. My point was that with such high numbers of cases in the community there will be a lot of people in hospital for other issues that will coincidentally have tested positive for Covid. They aren't in hospital because of Covid they just happen to have it. For a large number of these people they won't require treatment for Covid as it will only present as a mild disease and they will be fine, assuming that the treatment for whatever they're in for is successful. There will also be many that are being treated primarily for Covid. And there will be some that move from the former group into the latter group. I'm not suggesting that anyone shouldn't receive help to recover if they need it, just that some won't require help to recover from Covid.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 4, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not at all. My point was that with such high numbers of cases in the community there will be a lot of people in hospital for other issues that will coincidentally have tested positive for Covid. They aren't in hospital because of Covid they just happen to have it. For a large number of these people they won't require treatment for Covid as it will only present as a mild disease and they will be fine, assuming that the treatment for whatever they're in for is successful. There will also be many that are being treated primarily for Covid. And there will be some that move from the former group into the latter group. I'm not suggesting that anyone shouldn't receive help to recover if they need it, just that some won't require help to recover from Covid.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly some with Covid and another ailment may mean the Covid prevents the other being treated.


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## Foxholer (Feb 4, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Possibly some with Covid and another ailment may mean the Covid prevents the other being treated.
		
Click to expand...

Or certainly complicates it!
And, as posted, it seems too much of a coincidence that it just happens to be when the figures swap from most 'for' covid to most 'with' covid!


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## Hobbit (Feb 5, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's patients being primarily treated for Covid as opposed to those that are in there for another reason but happen to have Covid? As an example, in the first instance it's someone who has become ill after catching Covid and requires treatment for Covid and in the second it's someone that has gone in for a broken leg but who has tested positive for Covid. There are lots of people in hospital who HAVE Covid but aren't being treated FOR Covid.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I should have included an emoji of some description. My post was deliberately a little obtuse. The suggestions being bandied about is having Covid as the secondary condition somehow diminishes it. Imagine any number of different conditions, some chronic, and then having Covid on top of it.

I get that Covid can be mild, almost nonexistent or chronic, but surely having it on top of something else shouldn’t diminish it.


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## road2ruin (Feb 5, 2022)

Listening to the radio and the talk about the horrendous numbers of children being referred to the NHS for serious mental health issues it got me wondering whether we are at the point that, unless ill, children should not be off school for Covid now. 

We’ve just come to the end of a 10 day isolation period and, along with numerous others in her class, there was only a few hours of illness followed by 9 days of complete boredom. That’s without taking into account the asymptomatic children who have spent that time off school whilst being completely well. I know we’re able to test from day 5 but in my experience very few are released much before the full period. 

I’m not talking about removing it for adults (I think that’s planned for March all being well) however I think for school aged kids it’s important that they’re in school as much as possible and for some it’s safer than being at home.


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## drdel (Feb 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Listening to the radio and the talk about the horrendous numbers of children being referred to the NHS for serious mental health issues it got me wondering whether we are at the point that, unless ill, children should not be off school for Covid now.

We’ve just come to the end of a 10 day isolation period and, along with numerous others in her class, there was only a few hours of illness followed by 9 days of complete boredom. That’s without taking into account the asymptomatic children who have spent that time off school whilst being completely well. I know we’re able to test from day 5 but in my experience very few are released much before the full period.

I’m not talking about removing it for adults (I think that’s planned for March all being well) however I think for school aged kids it’s important that they’re in school as much as possible and for some it’s safer than being at home.
		
Click to expand...

That is the same for my two grandkids. Tested positive with a lapse of 3 days for the eldest. Both running about like their normal demented selves for 10 days.

Very pleased their OK but it does raise the question you ask.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Listening to the radio and the talk about the horrendous numbers of children being referred to the NHS for serious mental health issues it got me wondering whether we are at the point that, unless ill, children should not be off school for Covid now.

We’ve just come to the end of a 10 day isolation period and, along with numerous others in her class, there was only a few hours of illness followed by 9 days of complete boredom. That’s without taking into account the asymptomatic children who have spent that time off school whilst being completely well. I know we’re able to test from day 5 but in my experience very few are released much before the full period.

I’m not talking about removing it for adults (I think that’s planned for March all being well) however I think for school aged kids it’s important that they’re in school as much as possible and for some it’s safer than being at home.
		
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Somewhat agree, but I think that the issue is that if children with Covid are allowed into school it will inevitably spread to teachers and support staff. It could lead to even larger numbers of children having to be off school due to not having enough teachers available. I know of a few secondary schools in my area that are already doing 4 day weeks for all children with one year group having to stay at home each day due to staff isolating. Year 7 at home Monday, Year 8 at home Tuesday etc.


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## road2ruin (Feb 5, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Somewhat agree, but I think that the issue is that if children with Covid are allowed into school it will inevitably spread to teachers and support staff. It could lead to even larger numbers of children having to be off school due to not having enough teachers available. I know of a few secondary schools in my area that are already doing 4 day weeks for all children with one year group having to stay at home each day due to staff isolating. Year 7 at home Monday, Year 8 at home Tuesday etc.
		
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I do understand that, it's difficult however the problem is that with reinfections now, if you're unlucky you might end up with Covid again 5 weeks or so after getting it initially. This means that a child who is well could miss 4 weeks of school in 9 which is a huge amount and very, very difficult to catch up on (depending on age etc).


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## Foxholer (Feb 5, 2022)

Just noticed this article re the effectiveness of high quality masks
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...ong-protection-a-study-in-california-suggests


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## road2ruin (Feb 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Just noticed this article re the effectiveness of high quality masks
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...ong-protection-a-study-in-california-suggests

Click to expand...

Behind a paywall?


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## pendodave (Feb 5, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Behind a paywall?
		
Click to expand...

Like the telegraoh, block javascript in your browser and it seems to work.


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## Hobbit (Feb 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Just noticed this article re the effectiveness of high quality masks
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...ong-protection-a-study-in-california-suggests

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. It only reinforces so many informed posts that have been posted up previously. How many times have we seen posts that detailed the size of the virus ‘particles’ and the size of the ’weave’ of a decent mask?

As Ethan said previously, posting up is almost a waste of time. The mask deniers will continue to deny, and will continue to post up spurious rubbish.


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## D-S (Feb 5, 2022)

Good to see continued fall in cases despite the inclusion of re infections.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1489995549650661386


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## larmen (Feb 5, 2022)

Just had to run twice for about 20m at a kids football birthday party. Kids versus dads. I was done! Good that I skipped parkrun this morning.
But I do make a great goalie against 5/6 year olds.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 5, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Thanks for sharing. It only reinforces so many informed posts that have been posted up previously. How many times have we seen posts that detailed the size of the virus ‘particles’ and the size of the ’weave’ of a decent mask?

As Ethan said previously, posting up is almost a waste of time. The mask deniers will continue to deny, and will continue to post up spurious rubbish.
		
Click to expand...

Are you dismissing the WHO report I posted that shows masks are pretty pointless? Funny I saw you post earlier singing the praises of the WHO! 

I think it’s safe to say that we can now put mask wearing in the same envelope as The Nightingale Hospitals.

A pointless waste of money. (And the environmental cost is horrific)


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## Hobbit (Feb 5, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Are you dismissing the WHO report I posted that shows masks are pretty pointless? Funny I saw you post earlier singing the praises of the WHO!

I think it’s safe to say that we can now put mask wearing in the same envelope as The Nightingale Hospitals.

A pointless waste of money. (And the environmental cost is horrific)
		
Click to expand...

In your opinion. Perhaps you could explain why doctors and nurses wear them in ICU and theatres… for fun?


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## hovis (Feb 5, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Are you dismissing the WHO report I posted that shows masks are pretty pointless? Funny I saw you post earlier singing the praises of the WHO!

I think it’s safe to say that we can now put mask wearing in the same envelope as The Nightingale Hospitals.

A pointless waste of money. (And the environmental cost is horrific)
		
Click to expand...

Masks are very effective at reducing the amount of times a person touches their mouth and nose.   If a mask ruduces mouth to surface infections then surely it can't be pointless?


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## road2ruin (Feb 5, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			In your opinion. Perhaps you could explain why doctors and nurses wear them in ICU and theatres… for fun?
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure anyone is disputing that the masks that doctors and nurses wear don’t work however they are specific masks, they are worn properly and they’re probably changed numerous times. I’d imagine none of those apply to the vast majority of the general public.

I’m not saying that masks don’t have a slight effect but the argument people put forward that doctors and nurses wear them just doesn’t work.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 5, 2022)

hovis said:



			Masks are very effective at reducing the amount of times a person touches their mouth and nose.   If a mask ruduces mouth to surface infections then surely it can't be pointless?
		
Click to expand...

I know Face masks must be worn correctly, changed frequently, removed properly, disposed of safely and used in combination with good universal hygiene behaviour in order for them to be effective. I trust trained medical people to do this. I don’t trust the gen pop.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 5, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			In your opinion. Perhaps you could explain why doctors and nurses wear them in ICU and theatres… for fun?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 5, 2022)

Our staff wear PPE and FFP masks every time they are at the bedspace of the Covid patients. We have dedicated donning and doffing areas and staff coming out of the Covid bays, must put fresh PPE on to return. They are diligent about hand hygiene and we run frequent mandatory refresher courses regarding infection control


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## Ethan (Feb 5, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

Click to expand...

That study had very little to relay on, since RCTs of masks vs no mask have not been done very often, for obvious reasons, and carry obvious problems with blinding (you can't really do it properly). 

Most people are happy to rely on the self-evident effect of reducing droplet spreading as being a good thing. If someone sneezes on you wearing a mask, or not wearing a mask, which one causes the most snot splatter?

Like masks in Covid, masks in surgery need to be combined with other measures, though.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I am not sure anyone is disputing that the masks that doctors and nurses wear don’t work however they are specific masks, they are worn properly and they’re probably changed numerous times. I’d imagine none of those apply to the vast majority of the general public.

I’m not saying that masks don’t have a slight effect but the argument people put forward that doctors and nurses wear them just doesn’t work.
		
Click to expand...

You've either ignored or forgot the numerous scientific studies posted on this thread proving that mask wearing is highly effective in reducing the spread of viruses and especially Covid.

Most masks work very effectively, I find these suggestions dismissing their effectiveness are normally used to bolster misinformation by Covid deniers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n432


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## PNWokingham (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You've either ignored or forgot the numerous scientific studies posted on this thread proving that mask wearing is highly effective in reducing the spread of viruses and especially Covid.

Most masks work very effectively, I find these suggestions dismissing their effectiveness are normally used to bolster misinformation by Covid deniers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n432

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that masks do reduce the transmission mechanism and thus the spread to a greater or lesser degree depending on the type of mask, how it is worn and how crowdeed the environment. And only really indoors. But why do you have have to try and link people who are anti masks for whatever reasons to COVID deniers. That is dramatically pathetic and I have seen nobody post anything on here that can be deemed denying COVID, albeit several support people's ability to now choose whether to wear masks or not given the law and reduced risks.


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## Ethan (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I have no doubt that masks do reduce the transmission mechanism and thus the spread to a greater or lesser degree depending on the type of mask, how it is worn and how crowdeed the environment. And only really indoors. But why do you have have to try and link people who are anti masks for whatever reasons to COVID deniers. That is dramatically pathetic and I have seen nobody post anything on here that can be deemed denying COVID, albeit several support people's ability to now choose whether to wear masks or not given the law and reduced risks.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that masks are useful inside but not outside. The indoors-outdoors distinction was fumbled from the very start. Applying a rule of 6 to people sitting in the park or banning people from walking in the hills was ridiculous. 

There is a spectrum of opinion on masks, from those who don't really know or care but don't regard it as an inconvenience so do it, to those who are a bit dubious but agree to conform to rules/expectations across a few other shades to those who regard it as a massive infringement of liberties. The last lot invariably make a strong argument that masks are ineffective, because they know a lot of people don't have the same libertarian beliefs.

My argument is simpler. Masks help a bit, varies with location, fitting and prevalent risk, but the downside is so negligible that it still represents a valid thing to do from a benefit-risk perspective.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I have no doubt that masks do reduce the transmission mechanism and thus the spread to a greater or lesser degree depending on the type of mask, how it is worn and how crowdeed the environment. And only really indoors. But why do you have have to try and link people who are anti masks for whatever reasons to COVID deniers. That is dramatically pathetic and I have seen nobody post anything on here that can be deemed denying COVID, albeit several support people's ability to now choose whether to wear masks or not given the law and reduced risks.
		
Click to expand...

When I say Covid Deniers I include the cohort who propagate the belief it's all over and we need to just Get on with it or live with it'  there are a number of this club on this forum who dismiss the evidence to suit their agenda.


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I have no doubt that masks do reduce the transmission mechanism and thus the spread to a greater or lesser degree depending on the type of mask, how it is worn and how crowdeed the environment. And only really indoors. *But why do you have have to try and link people who are anti masks for whatever reasons to COVID deniers*. That is dramatically pathetic and I have seen nobody post anything on here that can be deemed denying COVID, albeit several support people's ability to now choose whether to wear masks or not given the law and reduced risks.
		
Click to expand...

Given your agreement above that masks can help, what reason do you think the anti mask folk are anti mask then?


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			When I say Covid Deniers I include the cohort who propagate the belief it's all over and we need to just Get on with it or live with it'  there are a number of this club on this forum who dismiss the evidence to suit their agenda.
		
Click to expand...

It’s not all over, but we do need to get on and live with it, and I’m happy to wear a mask and have whatever jabs are required if it helps achieve that.

There will always be people at opposite ends of the spectrum, from those like me, to those who cannot have jabs due to medical conditions, to those who refuse jabs due to their own reasoning.

The big question in my mind is that the unvaxxed minority are helping perpetuate the virus and keeping certain restrictions in place for the vaxxed majority


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## road2ruin (Feb 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Given your agreement above that masks can help, what reason do you think the anti mask folk are anti mask then?
		
Click to expand...

Presumably because the evidence is that they help 'a bit', they're not going to hasten the end of the pandemic and for those who take the opposing view they probably feel that the reasons for them aren't strong enough. 

I put myself in the group who aren't convinced by them, or at least not those that the public wear, how they wear and where they're kept etc however it is no great hardship and if I'm in a supermarket or shop I'll stick it on. 

As mentioned above, I think you can be a mask sceptic without being a Covid denier.


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			...
As mentioned above, I think you can be a mask sceptic without being a Covid denier.
		
Click to expand...

I agree...I'm marginally that way too, but happily comply.
It's the *anti*-mask folk I was asking about though!


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## PNWokingham (Feb 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Given your agreement above that masks can help, what reason do you think the anti mask folk are anti mask then?
		
Click to expand...

As mentioned ad infinitum, masks help yes, to some degree, but risks are deemed low enough to make it a marginal positive and the rules allow each person to determine their behaviour


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## Ethan (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			As mentioned ad infinitum, masks help yes, to some degree, but risks are deemed low enough to make it a marginal positive and the rules allow each person to determine their behaviour
		
Click to expand...

One important difference is that the benefit of masks, even if modest, applies to other people too. So you decide not only what risk you are prepared to accept for yourself, but also what risk you are prepared to pass on to others.

For that reason, people who do not want to wear masks, for whatever reason, whether Covid deniers or students of droplet size, feel the need to argue that masks are ineffective, otherwise they would look like they were being reckless with other people's health as well as their own.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			As mentioned ad infinitum, masks help yes, to some degree, but risks are deemed low enough to make it a marginal positive and the rules allow each person to determine their behaviour
		
Click to expand...

  Of course the rules allow people to determine their behaviour in certain circumstances. Hopefully that behaviour is considerate to others.


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			As mentioned ad infinitum, masks help yes, to some degree, but risks are deemed low enough to make it a marginal positive and the rules allow each person to determine their behaviour
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't my question! The question I asked you was 'Given your agreement above that masks can help, what reason do you think the anti mask folk are anti mask then?! You seem reluctant to answer that question. Why?


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## PNWokingham (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Of course the rules allow people to determine their behaviour in certain circumstances. Hopefully that behaviour is considerate to others.
		
Click to expand...

No point on continuing this as you cannot accept anyone who chooses to not wear a mask. I will not wear one in most circumstances but am also considerate to others and allow space between me and others in supermarkets etc. And I would avoid pibs if I were you as they are now  95% mask-free zone


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## PNWokingham (Feb 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That wasn't my question! The question I asked you was 'Given your agreement above that masks can help, what reason do you think the anti mask folk are anti mask then?! You seem reluctant to answer that question. Why?
		
Click to expand...

I answered your question. I and the government who set the rules do not deem them necessary anymore. Anything any sphere of life can be a help to limit something but there always has to be a balance. You can carry on doing what you want with a mask and I will do the same. Drinking is bad for me but I will continue doing it, easting too much money on golf subs is illogical but I continue doing it, speeding is naughty, but I may do it of the risks look acceptable etc etc etc


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I answered your question...
		
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Twaddle!


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## Crazyface (Feb 6, 2022)

Blimey! Is this still a discussion. It's all over here. Give it up.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

Crazyface said:



			Blimey! Is this still a discussion. It's all over here. Give it up.
		
Click to expand...

With respect, maybe you should.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			No point on continuing this as you cannot accept anyone who chooses to not wear a mask. I will not wear one in most circumstances but am also considerate to others and allow space between me and others in supermarkets etc. And I would avoid pibs if I were you as they are now  95% mask-free zone
		
Click to expand...

 Never been a Pib lover  😉   I do keep away from Pubs as well,  unnecessary risky places at this time.

Maybe you could clarify to us exactly why you wont wear a mask, it's not asking much of you and you seem to be dodging the question.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 6, 2022)

Well today the wife finally tested negative but it’s her last day of isolation anyway 

Both her and the daughter now have a cold 😂


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## bobmac (Feb 6, 2022)

_''In England, face coverings are no longer required by law.

The government suggests that you continue to wear a face covering in crowded and enclosed spaces where you may come into contact with other people you do not normally meet.

These changes apply to England only.''_

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ngs-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own


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## Imurg (Feb 6, 2022)

They are still a mandatory requirement when taking your driving test unless you are already exempt and have stated this on when you apply. 
No mask or official prenotification of exemption - No test.


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## larmen (Feb 6, 2022)

Imurg said:



			They are still a mandatory requirement when taking your driving test unless you are already exempt and have stated this on when you apply.
No mask or official prenotification of exemption - No test.
		
Click to expand...

Can you get a convertible car for instructions? Might be the coolest driving instructor around.


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## Imurg (Feb 6, 2022)

larmen said:



			Can you get a convertible car for instructions? Might be the coolest driving instructor around.
		
Click to expand...

They don't allow those either I'm afraid


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## SaintHacker (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			When I say Covid Deniers I include the cohort who propagate the belief it's all over and we need to just Get on with it or live with it'  there are a number of this club on this forum who dismiss the evidence to suit their agenda.
		
Click to expand...

So whats your alternative? On previous evidence we would need to stay locked down forever, and even then it would sill come back if we dared venture back out into public as it has done each time we've been locked down so far! Its nothing to do with an agenda, its to do with realising we can't stop this, just as we can't stop a cold or the flu, and learning how to live with it with the least risk possible. If you want to hide away and hope it goes away thats your choice, good luck to you. Me? I want to get on with my life.


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## drdel (Feb 6, 2022)

We seemed to be going around in circles faster than the particles in CERN's new Super Collider!


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## Foxholer (Feb 6, 2022)

larmen said:



			...Might be the coolest driving instructor around.
		
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting he isn't already?


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## Ethan (Feb 6, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So whats your alternative? *On previous evidence* we would need to stay locked down *forever*, and even then it would sill come back if we dared venture back out into public as it has done each time we've been locked down so far! Its nothing to do with an agenda, its to do with realising we can't stop this, just as we can't stop a cold or the flu, and learning how to live with it with the least risk possible. If you want to hide away and hope it goes away thats your choice, good luck to you. Me? I want to get on with my life.
		
Click to expand...

Nobody of any relevance has suggested that lock down, such as it was, would last forever. Happy to be corrected on that. What is this evidence you speak of?

So people who complain in those terms are either not listening to what is said or are knowingly telling porkies and should be regarded as suspected deniers.

Every reasonable public health expert has talked about reaching a place when the population immunity vs Covid risk will be such that few measures are no longer needed and vaccination may only be needed for the elderly or vulnerable.

So the question is when have we reached that time? Many experts think that we are close but not quite there and it would be a shame to blow it now so close to crossing the line. Take a look at current death rates in Israel and ask yourself if you are so sure it is all over here too.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So whats your alternative? On previous evidence we *would need to stay locked down forever*, and even then it would sill come back if we dared venture back out into public as it has done each time we've been locked down so far! Its nothing to do with an agenda, its to do with realising we can't stop this, just as we can't stop a cold or the flu, and learning how to live with it with the least risk possible. If you want to hide away and hope it goes away thats your choice, good luck to you. Me? I want to get on with my life.
		
Click to expand...

The highlighted bold bit is the exaggerated reply always made when someone suggests masks wearing in shops and on public transport  is a sensible precaution.  
No one has suggested it's 'for ever' have they.    We can't stop this completely but it can be reduced to more manageable levels given a little more time, is that demanding too much from your liberties.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Never been a Pib lover  😉   I do keep away from Pubs as well,  unnecessary risky places at this time.

Maybe you could clarify to us exactly why you wont wear a mask, it's not asking much of you and you seem to be dodging the question.
		
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ffs you do not give. I do not have to justify anything but have said repeatedly: a. i am allowed by law and b. the risks are low and i deem them ok. End of. back in your box and stop being so utterly moralistic and judgemental about people doing things they are entitled to. And as said, stay away from the pub, entertainment industry and golf clubhouses - as they are almost entirely mask free zones


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## SaintHacker (Feb 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Nobody of any relevance has suggested that lock down, such as it was, would last forever. Happy to be corrected on that. What is this evidence you speak of?

.
		
Click to expand...

You've possibly taken me a bit too literally here, the evidence is that after 3 lock downs, social distancing, mask wearing, hand cleaning, constant quarantining etc etc it has just come roaring back each time.
I'm as far from a denier as you can get, I continue to wear a mask in a busy place, however my (non expert) opinion is that we are never getting rid of this, so all we can realistically do is get jabbed and get on with it, there is too much collateral damage now happening


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## SaintHacker (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The highlighted bold bit is the exaggerated reply always made when someone suggests masks wearing in shops and on public transport  is a sensible precaution. 
No one has suggested it's 'for ever' have they.    We can't stop this completely but it can be reduced to more manageable levels given a little more time, is that demanding too much from your liberties.
		
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Nothing to do with my 'liberties', you seem to think I'm some kind of covid denying youtube idiot. See my reply to Ethan.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			ffs you do not give. I do not have to justify anything but have said repeatedly: a. i am allowed by law and b. the risks are low and i deem them ok. End of. back in your box and stop being so utterly moralistic and judgemental about people doing things they are entitled to. And as said, stay away from the pub, entertainment industry and golf clubhouses - as they are almost entirely mask free zones
		
Click to expand...

I've already explained to you that I'm not going to pubs at the moment.  You are entitled to do as you see fit but don't expect people to agree with you.  If you don't want your views questioned then don't post them.  Simple.


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## Hobbit (Feb 6, 2022)

Barring a broken rubber stamp on Tues, mandatory mask wearing outdoors is scheduled to end on Thursday. This against a backdrop of high infection rates but almost zero deaths - Omicron not to be feared?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Nothing to do with my 'liberties', you seem to think I'm some kind of covid denying youtube idiot. See my reply to Ethan.
		
Click to expand...

Then don't suggest I'm saying we want to keep Covid restrictions for ever.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Then don't suggest I'm saying we want to keep Covid restrictions for ever.
		
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Go back and read my post properly, that isnt what i said. And while we're at it maybe you shouldn't suggest everyone who disagrees with your opinion is a covid denier


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## Fade and Die (Feb 6, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Nobody of any relevance has suggested that lock down, such as it was, would last forever. Happy to be corrected on that. What is this evidence you speak of?

So people who complain in those terms are either not listening to what is said or are knowingly telling porkies and should be regarded as suspected deniers.

Every reasonable public health expert has talked about reaching a place when the population immunity vs Covid risk will be such that few measures are no longer needed and vaccination may only be needed for the elderly or vulnerable.

So the question is when have we reached that time? Many experts think that we are close but not quite there and it would be a shame to blow it now so close to crossing the line. Take a look at current death rates in Israel and ask yourself if you are so sure it is all over here too.
		
Click to expand...


With a case fatality rate in the U.K. of 0.89% and the average age of people that have died of Covid being 83 you can see why a lot of people consider the “danger” has passed? Especially if you are triple jabbed. A lot of people are suffering with Covid fatigue, it’s been relentless for two years and for the vast majority the disease was never going to be a threat to them.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 6, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've already explained to you that I'm not going to pubs at the moment.  You are entitled to do as you see fit but don't expect people to agree with you. * If you don't want your views questioned then don't post them.  Simple.*

Click to expand...

You might do well to follow your own advice.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 6, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			You might do well to follow your own advice. 

Click to expand...

But ignore the not going to pubs bit…..defo the way forward!


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## larmen (Feb 6, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Barring a broken rubber stamp on Tues, mandatory mask wearing outdoors is scheduled to end on Thursday. This against a backdrop of high infection rates but almost zero deaths - Omicron not to be feared?
		
Click to expand...

Well, I am permanently tired for 2 weeks now. I am not dead, but not really great either. Boosted fairly early ion the cycle.
Of course, I can't really say which variant, but omicron seems likely.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 6, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			You might do well to follow your own advice. 

Click to expand...

But if I agreed with them we would both be wrong.


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## D-S (Feb 6, 2022)

I continue to wear a mask in retailers whether they request it or not.
However my issues are with supermarkets who request mask wearing but have many employees wandering about the shop maskless, surely they are key components on minimising spread and, if nothing else should be setting an example. In light of this my scowling behind a mask at the maskless seems pointless.
On a more serious note a couple of close family members who recently contracted COVID (thankfully both triple jabbed and had less symptoms than a mild cold - both above 70), caught the virus from in one case going to an outpatient clinic where everyone was masked and negative tested and in the other from visiting a fully masked supermarket once. So this leads me to question the efficacy of masks but I will continue to wear one - I hope I am not just virtue signalling.
.


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## Ethan (Feb 6, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			You've possibly taken me a bit too literally here, the evidence is that after 3 lock downs, social distancing, mask wearing, hand cleaning, constant quarantining etc etc it has just come roaring back each time.
I'm as far from a denier as you can get, I continue to wear a mask in a busy place, however my (non expert) opinion is that we are never getting rid of this, so all we can realistically do is get jabbed and get on with it, there is too much collateral damage now happening
		
Click to expand...

I would argue that the evidence shows it has indeed come back, but also be controlled with sensible measures. I would also suggest that the collateral damage was made worse by indecision and dithering. Recent and historical evidence shows that good public health control goes along with good economic recovery. One of the biggest lies in this whole thing was that it was a choice between public health and the economy. It really wasn't. It was both together. 

We are never getting rid of this, but the idea that endemic means harmless is very dangerous yet quite common.


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## D-S (Feb 6, 2022)

Good to see a positive direction of travel 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490433904301461505


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## drdel (Feb 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I would argue that the evidence shows it has indeed come back, but also be controlled with sensible measures. I would also suggest that the collateral damage was made worse by indecision and dithering. Recent and historical evidence shows that good public health control goes along with good economic recovery. One of the biggest lies in this whole thing was that it was a choice between public health and the economy. It really wasn't. It was both together.

We are never getting rid of this, but the idea that endemic means harmless is very dangerous yet quite common.
		
Click to expand...

Your last sentence of first paragraph betrays your political slant!! Also happens to be wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2022)

drdel said:



			Your last sentence of first paragraph betrays your political slant!! Also happens to be wrong.
		
Click to expand...

And no statement along the lines of 'the economy couldn't stand another lockdown' has been uttered?  Ah well.  If you say so.


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## Ethan (Feb 7, 2022)

drdel said:



			Your last sentence of first paragraph betrays your political slant!! Also happens to be wrong.
		
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Really. Many economists disagree with you. As does the history of Spanish flu and the observable experience of a number of countries in this pandemic. I expect you don't want to go over this again, though, so happy to leave it hanging.


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## drdel (Feb 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Really. Many economists disagree with you. As does the history of Spanish flu and the observable experience of a number of countries in this pandemic. I expect you don't want to go over this again, though, so happy to leave it hanging.
		
Click to expand...

Undoubtedly some economists support your thesis - many don't- it's the age old economics dilemma and basis of "Health Economics".

"Health economics is the discipline of economics applied to the topic of health care. Broadly defined, economics concerns how society allocates its resources among alternative uses. Scarcity of these resources provides the foundation of economic theory and from this starting point, three basic questions arise:

What goods and services shall we produce?

How shall we produce them?

*Who shall receive them?*

Health economics addresses these questions primarily from the perspective of efficiency—maximising the benefits from available resources (or ensuring benefits gained exceed benefits forgone). Equity concerns are also recognised—what is a fair distribution of resources. Considerations of equity often conflict with efficiency directives. However, due to the contested nature of this area and the difficulties in quantifying equity dimensions, this element has not been a major focus of health economist’s work." (Dr D P Kernick, St Thomas’ Medical Group.)


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## Ethan (Feb 7, 2022)

drdel said:



			Undoubtedly some economists support your thesis - many don't- it's the age old economics dilemma and basis of "Health Economics".

"Health economics is the discipline of economics applied to the topic of health care. Broadly defined, economics concerns how society allocates its resources among alternative uses. Scarcity of these resources provides the foundation of economic theory and from this starting point, three basic questions arise:

What goods and services shall we produce?

How shall we produce them?

*Who shall receive them?*

Health economics addresses these questions primarily from the perspective of efficiency—maximising the benefits from available resources (or ensuring benefits gained exceed benefits forgone). Equity concerns are also recognised—what is a fair distribution of resources. Considerations of equity often conflict with efficiency directives. However, due to the contested nature of this area and the difficulties in quantifying equity dimensions, this element has not been a major focus of health economist’s work." (Dr D P Kernick, St Thomas’ Medical Group.)
		
Click to expand...

"Some do, many don't". Mmmm.

Nothing to do with health economics, which I know a bit about. I was talking about proper big world economists.

Such as or this


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## drdel (Feb 7, 2022)

Ethan said:



			"Some do, many don't". Mmmm.

Nothing to do with health economics*, which I know a bit abou*t. I was talking about proper big world economists.

Such as or this

Click to expand...

Rather than missdirect this thread perhaps you'd like to create a thread on proper economics rather than cite jingoistic journalistic articles. Any refereed papers you have authored on economic policy etc might go down well


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2022)

My ward clerk finally testing negative today. Hopefully the same tomorrow and she can return to work next weekend. She's really struggled despite being triple jabbed and a reminder that it isn't mild and easy to deal with for everyone


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## D-S (Feb 8, 2022)

Interesting to see that despite the high recorded COVID deaths in January, that deaths so far this year are lower than the 2015-19 average.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1490983467664179204


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## PNWokingham (Feb 8, 2022)

Just noticed that Denmark, last week, dropped all covid-related laws as the virus now no longer deemed a critical threat to society - and this is despite a massive surge in cases way ahead of UK and other countries. They are also admitting that you cannot control the spread of this infection even with severe restictions


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 8, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Are you seriously comparing a nurse in full on ppe to shitty cloth masks worn by the masses. 😂😂😂
		
Click to expand...

Bit late replying, but no, I'm comparing them to the most common type mask, the "blue" one that has a PME 2.5 standard.
I agree home made cloth masks are hardly any use


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 8, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've already explained to you that I'm not going to pubs at the moment.  You are entitled to do as you see fit but don't expect people to agree with you.  If you don't want your views questioned then don't post them.  Simple.
		
Click to expand...

Think you must have hit a nerve there, SR😀


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 9, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491389772996444160
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60319947


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 9, 2022)

That's huge. I believe Denmark have done the same, might be slightly out but not by much.


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## road2ruin (Feb 9, 2022)

Good news, allows employees/students to go about their daily life when well i.e. symptomless.

Hopefully the bigger change will be for the expectation of employers that people should 'man up' and struggle into work when they should be at home and not spreading various lurgy's around the office.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2022)

D-S said:



			...
On a more serious note a couple of close family members who recently contracted COVID (thankfully both triple jabbed and had less symptoms than a mild cold - both above 70), caught the virus from in one case going to an outpatient clinic where everyone was masked and negative tested and in the other from visiting a fully masked supermarket once. So this leads me to question the efficacy of masks but I will continue to wear one - I hope I am not just virtue signalling.
.
		
Click to expand...

How are you _certain_ those were the places the virus was caught? Were they the only places they visited? Could it have been picked up on the way to or from the particular venue(s)?
While it's certainly possible


D-S said:



			Interesting to see that despite the high recorded COVID deaths in January, that deaths so far this year are lower than the 2015-19 average.
...
Quite possible/likely that it's because those 'expected' to die last month are among the nearly 160K deemed victims of Covid!
		
Click to expand...


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2022)

drdel said:



			Rather than missdirect this thread perhaps you'd like to create a thread on proper economics rather than cite jingoistic journalistic articles. Any refereed papers you have authored on economic policy etc might go down well
		
Click to expand...

What a ridiculous suggestion!
And FWIW, economic policy seems very much like Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle...Any implimentation changes the rules so much that a new policy is required!


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## D-S (Feb 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			How are you _certain_ those were the places the virus was caught? Were they the only places they visited? Could it have been picked up on the way to or from the particular venue(s)?
While it's certainly possible
		
Click to expand...

I am 100% certain, as one had been isolating for 5 days before an out patient visit and had only visited a fully masked supermarket 2 days before isolation. the other lives in sheltered housing and had visited a fully masked supermarket twice in the previous 7 days. Neither had any other contact, they both walked to the supermarkets and the one drove himself to the hospital.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Just noticed that Denmark, last week, dropped all covid-related laws as the virus now no longer deemed a critical threat to society - and this is despite a massive surge in cases way ahead of UK and other countries. They are also admitting that you cannot control the spread of this infection even with severe restictions







Click to expand...

The major difference (and, in fact, similarity) between the Danish approach and the NZ one is because of the priority of both countries - to avoid overwhelming their hospitals. In Denmark, the cases per million indicate over a third of of their population has been infected. In NZ, it is about 1 percent of that figure. So while Denmark is heading towards 'herd immunity', NZ is nowhere near that point and the threat of hospitals being overwhelmed very much still exists, even with a relatively high vaccination rate. 
I'm pretty sure, however, that Omicron WILL spread throughout NZ and herd immunity will also be achieved there too - it's the only possible 'solution' imo.
FWIW, Australia seems to be in pretty much the same situation as NZ, though with perhaps rather more/more obvious internal opposition.
Both Aus and NZ were able to 'close' borders, unlike almost every other sizeable country.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2022)

D-S said:



			I am 100% certain, as one had been isolating for 5 days before an out patient visit and had only visited a fully masked supermarket 2 days before isolation. the other lives in sheltered housing and had visited a fully masked supermarket twice in the previous 7 days. Neither had any other contact, they both walked to the supermarkets and the one drove himself to the hospital.
		
Click to expand...

Highly likely, but I wouldn't be 100% certain!
I also agree re masking not being a 'perfect' defence btw. But it's a simple act that, supposedly, helps. So I've no issue with doing so and struggle to understand why others don't. It seems more ego related than any health/freedom argument to me!


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Highly likely, but I wouldn't be 100% certain!
I also agree re masking not being a 'perfect' defence btw. But it's a simple act that, supposedly, helps. So I've no issue with doing so and struggle to understand why others don't. It seems more ego related than any health/freedom argument to me!
		
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one. I'd be happy to continue to wear a mask if it was going to help other people not catch it. I'm amazed that many of the "we need to learn to live with it" crowd are also the ones that refuse to wear masks. How is a vulnerable person that needs to use public transport or go shopping meant to "learn to live with it" if other people won't wear masks and therefore increase the risk of the vulnerable person catching it?


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## D-S (Feb 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Highly likely, but I wouldn't be 100% certain!
		
Click to expand...

Well I know their situations and I am 100% certain.


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## drdel (Feb 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			What a ridiculous suggestion!
And FWIW, economic policy seems very much like Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle...Any implimentation changes the rules so much that a new policy is required!
		
Click to expand...

So I must assume you are an expert economist, econometrician and well read in medicines and epidemiology.... 

I think a word you are looking for and seem very fond of using is twaddle.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2022)

drdel said:



			So I must assume you are an expert economist, econometrician and well read in medicines and epidemiology....

I think a word you are looking for and seem very fond of using is twaddle.
		
Click to expand...

You would be stupid to make that assumption!
I suggest you check your meds! The twaddle you've posted above and earlier is vastly different to your normal quality - even in your regular put-downs!
Or cut down on the lunchtime alcohol consumption!


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			You would be stupid to make that assumption!
I suggest you check your meds! The twaddle you've posted above and earlier is vastly different to your normal quality - even in your regular put-downs!
Or cut down on the lunchtime alcohol consumption!
		
Click to expand...

Oi @Foxholer , if you are going to dismiss something as twaddle, you have to explain why it is twaddle.

Otherwise you are just adding to the twaddle 👍

Goes for everyone, 👍


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Oi @Foxholer , if you are going to dismiss something as twaddle, you have to explain why it is twaddle.

Otherwise you are just adding to the twaddle 👍

Goes for everyone, 👍
		
Click to expand...

The inclusion of the word 'must' was why! 
Without that, the post was merely an inference/opinion.
But as posted, it's...well, you know what!. There is no requirement to 'must assume' that! In fact, the two words in quotes are normally /very often mutually-exclusive!


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 9, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			The inclusion of the word 'must' was why!
Without that, the post was merely an inference/opinion.
But as posted, it's...well, you know what!. There is no requirement to 'must assume' that! In fact, the two words in quotes are normally /very often mutually-exclusive!
		
Click to expand...

Pure Twaddle as I have absolutely no idea what you are prattling on about


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Pure Twaddle as I have absolutely no idea what you are prattling on about
		
Click to expand...

But you must explain why it's Twaddle, otherwise you are just adding to the Twaddle.

Just saying 🙂


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 9, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			But you must explain why it's Twaddle, otherwise you are just adding to the Twaddle.

Just saying 🙂
		
Click to expand...

I did just that by saying I didn’t understand what he was prattling about,  therefore it must be twaddle.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I did just that by saying I didn’t understand what he was prattling about,  therefore it must be twaddle.
		
Click to expand...

If you don't understand it how do you know it's Twaddle.

I'll get me coat 😉


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 9, 2022)

Let’s get back on track 
It’s the Covid thread so it is 👍


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## richart (Feb 9, 2022)

It has forced me to cancel two games this week, and looks like I will not be making another on Friday. Also could be missing the Royals 150th anniversary game against Coventry.













Actually missing the footie could be a good thing.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 9, 2022)

This topic is turning into rammel.


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## Foxholer (Feb 9, 2022)

I popped into local Sainsbury's this afternoon. 
No real change in numbers with/without masks. May be force of habit though.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			This topic is turning into rammel.
		
Click to expand...

That good?


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## Tashyboy (Feb 9, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			That good?
		
Click to expand...

opposite, Rammel 😉😁


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## SocketRocket (Feb 9, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			opposite, Rammel 😉😁
		
Click to expand...

It's not good enough to be rammel 😀


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## bobmac (Feb 10, 2022)

People tested positive DOWN 22.8%
Deaths within 28 days of positive test DOWN 16.3%
Patients in hospital DOWN by 277
Patients admitted DOWN 12%
Patients on ICU DOWN by 13

And more importantly to me...

People tested positive in my area DOWN 65.1%
Deaths within 28 days of positive test in my area 0
Patients in hospital in my area DOWN 9%
Patients admitted to hospital in my area DOWN 70%
Patients in ICU in my area DOWN 50% to 1


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			This topic is turning into rammel.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			It's not good enough to be rammel 😀
		
Click to expand...

So why keep reading/adding to it? 🤷‍♂️


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2022)

So all legal restrictions could be removed by the end of the month, including mandatory isolation. Best news I've heard for a long time!👍


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So all legal restrictions could be removed by the end of the month, including mandatory isolation. Best news I've heard for a long time!👍
		
Click to expand...

As much as I want that to be the case, I have no faith in the source of the message.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 10, 2022)

bobmac said:



			People tested positive DOWN 22.8%
Deaths within 28 days of positive test DOWN 16.3%
Patients in hospital DOWN by 277
Patients admitted DOWN 12%
Patients on ICU DOWN by 13

And more importantly to me...

People tested positive in my area DOWN 65.1%
Deaths within 28 days of positive test in my area 0
Patients in hospital in my area DOWN 9%
Patients admitted to hospital in my area DOWN 70%
Patients in ICU in my area DOWN 50% to 1


View attachment 41066


Click to expand...


Gone the other way here!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So why keep reading/adding to it? 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Jeez, I guess a bit of banter is pushing it with you 🙄
You seem to have ignored the 😀


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Gone the other way here!
		
Click to expand...

And here, it's all gone up.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So all legal restrictions could be removed by the end of the month, including mandatory isolation. Best news I've heard for a long time!👍
		
Click to expand...

I just can't see how people with Covid could simply mix with the general public and how it could be considered good news.


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			And here, it's all gone up.
		
Click to expand...

That means it must be going to even more quickly than average in two other areas.


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## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I just can't see how people with Covid could simply mix with the general public and how it could be considered good news.
		
Click to expand...

A commitment to herd immunity perhaps?
Or, thinking cynically, something unmentionable.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

D-S said:



			That means it must be going to even more quickly than average in two other areas.
		
Click to expand...

It could be, who knows.  The stats are not always as they are presented.  For example, overall cases are down but so is testing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I just can't see how people with Covid could simply mix with the general public and how it could be considered good news.
		
Click to expand...

I don't know what we are going to do.

It's all very well saying that those who have made this decision are aware of the needs of the vulnerable - being aware is one thing but I haven't heard anything that tells the vulnerable what they and those caring for them must do; what they should not be doing; and what - if any - additional support they will be offered, given the current plan seems to simply be to give the virus free rein to spread as it wishes through the populace.  This is NOT just like the flu because unlike flu viruses and illness, we simply and as a matter of fact do not have many decades of experience of the vulnerable especially living with; treating, and managing coronavirus and covid.

Question is therefore...Why now?  Why lift ALL restrictions and requirements on us now when things seem to be stabilising; why not wait another six months or so - enough time to hopefully see the current variant infection growth through and additional time to develop more sophisticated vaccines; time to keep watch for further immediate variants; time to understand better the impact of the current variant and more time to understand long covid and develop treatments for it.

It's not as if our lives are currently being significantly impacted - perhaps some inconvenience and occasional minor discomfort for a few - but if we are truthful not significantly impacted.  Of course I am unable to answer my own question as much as I have an idea.


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It could be, who knows.  The stats are not always as they are presented.  For example, overall cases are down but so is testing.
		
Click to expand...

Testing is just one element, the original quote refers to deaths, ICU patients, Patients in hospital, Patients admitted to hospital improving.
It appears as if you only believe bad news and ignore any positive trends.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 10, 2022)

No masks in schools from 28th Feb in Scotland.


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## road2ruin (Feb 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know what we are going to do.

It's all very well saying that those who have made this decision are aware of the needs of the vulnerable - being aware is one thing but I haven't heard anything that tells the vulnerable what they and those caring for them must do; what they should not be doing; and what - if any - additional support they will be offered, given the current plan seems to simply be to give the virus free rein to spread as it wishes through the populace.  This is NOT just like the flu because unlike flu viruses and illness, we simply and as a matter of fact do not have many decades of experience of the vulnerable especially living with; treating, and managing coronavirus and covid.

Question is therefore...Why now?  Why lift ALL restrictions and requirements on us now when things seem to be stabilising; why not wait another six months or so - enough time to hopefully see the current variant infection growth through and additional time to develop more sophisticated vaccines; time to keep watch for further immediate variants; time to understand better the impact of the current variant and more time to understand long covid and develop treatments for it.

It's not as if our lives are currently being significantly impacted - perhaps some inconvenience and occasional minor discomfort for a few - but if we are truthful not significantly impacted.  Of course I am unable to answer my own question as much as I have an idea.
		
Click to expand...

I think the issue is that there will always be people at the end of any period who will want it extended for 'just another few months', at some point the restrictions have to be lifted. Personally I'd have been tempted to leave it at the end of March, well into spring with hopefully warmer weather and less mixing indoors. I think after that we know that Covid numbers will drop drastically as they did last summer and the summer before. 

We need to get to a point where people who have symptoms are sensible and stay in and those who aren't ill just get on with it. With the latter group we're not going to know whether they're asymptomatic or not as there won't be testing which is how is should be now we're at this point.


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## Hobbit (Feb 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know what we are going to do.

It's all very well saying that those who have made this decision are aware of the needs of the vulnerable - being aware is one thing but I haven't heard anything that tells the vulnerable what they and those caring for them must do; what they should not be doing; and what - if any - additional support they will be offered, given the current plan seems to simply be to give the virus free rein to spread as it wishes through the populace.  This is NOT just like the flu because unlike flu viruses and illness, we simply and as a matter of fact do not have many decades of experience of the vulnerable especially living with; treating, and managing coronavirus and covid.

Question is therefore...Why now?  Why lift ALL restrictions and requirements on us now when things seem to be stabilising; why not wait another six months or so - enough time to hopefully see the current variant infection growth through and additional time to develop more sophisticated vaccines; time to keep watch for further immediate variants; time to understand better the impact of the current variant and more time to understand long covid and develop treatments for it.

It's not as if our lives are currently being significantly impacted - perhaps some inconvenience and occasional minor discomfort for a few - but if we are truthful not significantly impacted.  Of course I am unable to answer my own question as much as I have an idea.
		
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I wonder if it’s become a ‘numbers game,’ where x percentage are considered expendable?

Here is Spain, today is no masks outside. Most people still wearing them though.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

D-S said:



			Testing is just one element, the original quote refers to deaths, ICU patients, Patients in hospital, Patients admitted to hospital improving.
It appears as if you only believe bad news and ignore any positive trends.
		
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Oh, I see. If I have a different view to yours I only believe bad news.  If I accuse you of only believing good news that would be OK with you then.

As people we have different conceptual values on matters like this.  I made a comment that suggested the lower testing levels will have an influence on the numbers being reported as new infections.  Regarding deaths, 2,000 or so people dead with Covid a week is a tragic statistic to me, it's not mearly a number on a spread sheet; it's the loss of real people along with the grief and loss that creates.  Numbers being admitted into hospital are down but still high bearing in mind it was around 2,000 not so long ago.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know what we are going to do.

It's all very well saying that those who have made this decision are aware of the needs of the vulnerable - being aware is one thing but I haven't heard anything that tells the vulnerable what they and those caring for them must do; what they should not be doing; and what - if any - additional support they will be offered, given the current plan seems to simply be to give the virus free rein to spread as it wishes through the populace.  This is NOT just like the flu because unlike flu viruses and illness, we simply and as a matter of fact do not have many decades of experience of the vulnerable especially living with; treating, and managing coronavirus and covid.

*Question is therefore...Why now?*  Why lift ALL restrictions and requirements on us now when things seem to be stabilising; why not wait another six months or so - enough time to hopefully see the current variant infection growth through and additional time to develop more sophisticated vaccines; time to keep watch for further immediate variants; time to understand better the impact of the current variant and more time to understand long covid and develop treatments for it.

It's not as if our lives are currently being significantly impacted - perhaps some inconvenience and occasional minor discomfort for a few - but if we are truthful not significantly impacted.  Of course I am unable to answer my own question as much as I have an idea.
		
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It's almost as though they've chosen to announce it now to distract people from something that we're not allowed to talk about. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and they're following the science. I know which of those two sentences I think is more likely.


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## D-S (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh, I see. If I have a different view to yours I only believe bad news.  If I accuse you of only believing good news that would be OK with you then.
		
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If you constantly publish bad news and question the basis of any good news then you certainly have a different opinion than me. However I have consistently believed bad news when it has been the direction of travel but am also keen to see the positives when things are moving in the right direction. I also think it is important that the big picture is considered.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not as if our lives are currently being significantly impacted - perhaps some inconvenience and occasional minor discomfort for a few - but if we are truthful not significantly impacted.  Of course I am unable to answer my own question as much as I have an idea.
		
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You seem to be looking through your own prism. Plenty are significantly affected. Take your pick of schools, hospitals, transport network, supply chains, hospitality, businesses all over, lacking staff who are healthy but having to isolate. It's creating a huge mess and is detrimental to many.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I just can't see how people with Covid could simply mix with the general public and how it could be considered good news.
		
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People with covid have been mixing with the general public since the start of the pandemic, either by having it asymptomatically or having it but the symptoms not yet showing.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You seem to be looking through your own prism. Plenty are significantly affected. Take your pick of schools, hospitals, transport network, supply chains, hospitality, businesses all over, lacking staff who are healthy but having to isolate. It's creating a huge mess and is detrimental to many.
		
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What about the ones that are not healthy and infectious.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			People with covid have been mixing with the general public since the start of the pandemic, either by having it without symptoms or having it but the symptoms not yet showing.
		
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So it's OK then?


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			What about the ones that are not healthy and infectious.
		
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Well, like anyone who is ill and infectious, they should stay at home. No different to someone with a bad cold, flu, chicken pox etc. Some won't, as they don't when they have other infectious illnesses, but that just has to be discouraged. We can't nanny everyone for ever.


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## AmandaJR (Feb 10, 2022)

I decided to chill out about the non-mask-wearers in Lidl today. After all I wouldn't normally look too much at the faces of fellow shoppers - quite the opposite. So I registered there were plenty not wearing them and it seemed most from the age group previously said to be more at risk - perhaps the triple jab making them feel more confident. 

Anyhow, I just tried to social distance from them all - again something I usually tried to do pre-pandemic when shopping with the great unwashed


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## road2ruin (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's OK then?
		
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Out of interest what would be your suggestion with regards the asymptomatic? You can't keep asking otherwise healthy people to keep testing and then isolating and even if you did it'll get to the point whereby people just don't listen any more. We have to change the mindset of people who feel obliged to work either through their employer's pressure or their own mentality of 'manning up' which will have the most impact on stopping spread on a local level.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Out of interest what would be your suggestion with regards the asymptomatic? You can't keep asking otherwise healthy people to keep testing and then isolating and even if you did it'll get to the point whereby people just don't listen any more. We have to change the mindset of people who feel obliged to work either through their employer's pressure or their own mentality of 'manning up' which will have the most impact on stopping spread on a local level.
		
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When staff at my place would come in clearly ill I would send them straight back home. 'I don't want it and I don't want you infecting everyone else'. It took a few conversations like this to get the message through but now they know. Nobody abuses it, it avoids a domino effect of illness going through the company.


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## road2ruin (Feb 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When staff at my place would come in clearly ill I would send them straight back home. 'I don't want it and I don't want you infecting everyone else'. It took a few conversations like this to get the message through but now they know. Nobody abuses it, it avoids a domino effect of illness going through the company.
		
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Which has got to be the attitude of both employers and employees going forward especially with so many having worked at home, having someone indoors for a few days working there (if well enough) is far better than spreading it round the office and suddenly having no one in!


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## drdel (Feb 10, 2022)

Death's weekly ...
Jan 26t 2018,  12,723
Jan 25th 2019, 11740

Jan  29th 2022, 12,401
(ONS)


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## PNWokingham (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's OK then?
		
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Yes. Reality.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You seem to be looking through your own prism. Plenty are significantly affected. Take your pick of schools, hospitals, transport network, supply chains, hospitality, businesses all over, lacking staff who are healthy but having to isolate. It's creating a huge mess and is detrimental to many.
		
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What you say is of course true - but what it is actually about is managing 'business' risk according to varying levels of absence, and having very clearly defined criteria requiring an individual to be absent from work and for how wrong - and the 'business' defining working from home roles and practice wherever that is practicable - and our experience of the last two years tells us that much is possible in that respect.  What is not included in managing 'business' risk are the simple mitigations individuals can make to reduce the risk of viral spread outside of the workplace.

My BiL will not be in a workplace - but he would hopefully be able to go out into public space.  However it appears that in the public space the spread of any variant of the virus will not be mitigated and will therefore be uncontrolled.  What sort of environment is that for the many who are vulnerable?


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## DanFST (Feb 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What you say is of course true - but what it is actually about is managing 'business' risk according to varying levels of absence, and having very clearly defined criteria requiring an individual to be absent from work and for how wrong - and the 'business' defining working from home roles and practice wherever that is practicable - and our experience of the last two years tells us that much is possible in that respect.  What is not included in managing 'business' risk are the simple mitigations individuals can make to reduce the risk of viral spread outside of the workplace.

My BiL will not be in a workplace - but he would hopefully be able to go out into public space.  However it appears that in the public space the spread of any variant of the virus will not be mitigated and will therefore be uncontrolled.  What sort of environment is that for the many who are vulnerable?
		
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Not ideal if you own an office building, or work in reception, or a janitor, or a cook in the canteen, or in any of the cafe's/retail that need office workers.


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## chellie (Feb 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			When staff at my place would come in clearly ill I would send them straight back home. 'I don't want it and I don't want you infecting everyone else'. It took a few conversations like this to get the message through but now they know. Nobody abuses it, it avoids a domino effect of illness going through the company.
		
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Do you pay sick pay as that is a huge factor plus the fact that so many companies still expect you to come into work even when ill.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2022)

chellie said:



			Do you pay sick pay as that is a huge factor plus the fact that so many companies still expect you to come into work even when ill.
		
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Yes, we are civilised 😄


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## chellie (Feb 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes, we are civilised 😄
		
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Excellent, what a company should do.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My BiL will not be in a workplace - but he would hopefully be able to go out into public space.  However it appears that in the public space the spread of any variant of the virus will not be mitigated and will therefore be uncontrolled.  What sort of environment is that for the many who are vulnerable?
		
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It's problematic but do we close down for another year, 2 years? There will always be vulnerable people, there always have been. They have to manage their own risk as best they can, as they always have done. It's tough but it's reality. 

One thing to ponder. For the countries finances to recover, to bring in the taxes that the NHS, our social services need to help the medically vulnerable, we need to get people back to work consistently, to get businesses working efficiently again.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 10, 2022)

chellie said:



			Excellent, what a company should do.
		
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It's the benefit of having your own, albeit it small, company. You get to treat people the way you believe is right, learn from your own good and bad experiences. You get to put your money where your mouth is in terms of your employer moral compass. I'm pleased to say our staff turnover is very low 😁. (We have also been fairly fortunate in not having too many problem employees. That helps 👍)


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			Death's weekly ...
Jan 26t 2018,  12,723
Jan 25th 2019, 11740

Jan  29th 2022, 12,401
(ONS)
		
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It's not really a surprise that deaths aren't higher this year than the previous years. With 140k excess deaths in the last couple of years many of those that would have died this winter are already dead. I suspect that for the next three or four years at least the number of deaths will be below previous years totals simply because of the fact that so many older people died during the pandemic and the totals have been front loaded onto 2020 and 2021.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			So why keep reading/adding to it? 🤷‍♂️
		
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because if you And your ” like” partners had read the thread you would see that people were suggesting that “ twaddle” was being stated. I replied and said it was rammel. 
An attempt at humour went straight over all your heads. But thankfully not everyone’s.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Jeez, I guess a bit of banter is pushing it with you 🙄
You seem to have ignored the 😀
		
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Thankyou 😉😂


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 10, 2022)

Reality is we are improving. We are down to 2 in ICU although there remains 94 in the trust with Covid. It certainly isn't swamping ICU although the respiratory wards and some other wards (gastro, CCU) are struggling with patients with underlying conditions which are the main cause for their admission but are also Covid positive and so need isolating in side rooms


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's OK then?
		
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Fine by me


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			because if you And your ” like” partners had read the thread you would see that people were suggesting that “ twaddle” was being stated. I replied and said it was rammel.
An attempt at humour went straight over all your heads. But thankfully not everyone’s.
		
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It was meant to be funny? Ah OK, yeah you're right I missed the humour completely...


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Fine by me

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So it's Fine by you for someone who knowingly has Covid to mix freely in public. Really!  Would that go for any infectious disease like measles around pregnant women or do you consider Covid a special case.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's Fine by you for someone who knowingly has Covid to mix freely in public. Really!  Would that go for any infectious disease like measles around pregnant women or do you consider Covid a special case.
		
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Do we have mandatory isolation for any other infectious disease?


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## Foxholer (Feb 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's the benefit of having your own, albeit it small, company. You get to treat people the way you believe is right, learn from your own good and bad experiences. You get to put your money where your mouth is in terms of your employer moral compass. I'm pleased to say our staff turnover is very low 😁. *(We have also been fairly fortunate in not having too many problem employees. That helps* 👍)
		
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Unfortunately, you don't need many of those to change your attitude from holistic to 'selfish' employer!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Do we have mandatory isolation for any other infectious disease?
		
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Yes, lots of them.
https://www.nuh.nhs.uk/notifiable-diseases


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Yes, we are civilised 😄
		
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And becoming a rarity.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, lots of them.
https://www.nuh.nhs.uk/notifiable-diseases

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They're just notifiable diseases, there is no law to say you have to isolate if you have one?


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 10, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			It's almost as though they've chosen to announce it now to distract people from something that we're not allowed to talk about. Or maybe I'm completely wrong and they're following the science. I know which of those two sentences I think is more likely.
		
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Don't think the unspoken reason carries much weight as the reason it has now been announced. After all, how many in the Country don't know about the "difficulties" which are commented on every day by someone in the media. It's in the headlines all the time. E.g Today it is plain it is a major (sic) issue😀

I don't think they are following the science- they are following the numbers.
Someone has pointed out the "benefits" of businesses not having to deal with enforced isolation. Your boss can now tell you that you have a not a good enough reason not to attend work!, if he is that sort of boss.
Some people who would sensibly stay away from the workplace if they had covid( as they would maybe if they had flu), out of respect for their fellow employees' health, will now be facing a dilemma they shouldn't be facing if they have a bad boss.
In this respect, Covid is going to be exactly like flu.

My view is that a MarchApril time - better weather-  should be the time.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			They're just notifiable diseases, there is no law to say you have to isolate if you have one?
		
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https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/section/38/1991-02-01

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/contents/1991-02-01/data.html


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## SocketRocket (Feb 10, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Don't think the unspoken reason carries much weight as the reason it has now been announced. After all, how many in the Country don't know about the "difficulties" which are commented on every day by someone in the media. It's in the headlines all the time. E.g Today it is plain it is a major (sic) issue😀

I don't think they are following the science- they are following the numbers.
Someone has pointed out the "benefits" of businesses not having to deal with enforced isolation. Your boss can now tell you that you have a not a good enough reason not to attend work!, if he is that sort of boss.
Some people who would sensibly stay away from the workplace if they had covid( as they would maybe if they had flu), out of respect for their fellow employees' health, will now be facing a dilemma they shouldn't be facing if they have a bad boss.
In this respect, Covid is going to be exactly like flu.

My view is that a MarchApril time - better weather-  should be the time.
		
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It would be interesting to see what the Science has said on the matter.  I have a distinct feeling this suggestion of removing all restrictions has been 'Off the cuff' and not supported by the science


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/section/38/1991-02-01

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/22/contents/1991-02-01/data.html

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So not a requirement to isolate then, but a detention order?


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## AliMc (Feb 11, 2022)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No masks in schools from 28th Feb in Scotland.
		
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No not the case, no masks in classrooms, still to be worn in corridors and social areas I think


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			So not a requirement to isolate then, but a detention order?
		
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Detention is a form of isolation.

The suggestion that there is no law to suggest you isolate with a notifiable disease was wrong.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It's problematic but do we close down for another year, 2 years? There will always be vulnerable people, there always have been. They have to manage their own risk as best they can, as they always have done. It's tough but it's reality. 

One thing to ponder. For the countries finances to recover, to bring in the taxes that the NHS, our social services need to help the medically vulnerable, we need to get people back to work consistently, to get businesses working efficiently again.
		
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The vulnerable have been able to manage their risk in public feeling pretty safe in the knowledge that any viral infection they might pick up is very well understood and for which there are very effective vaccines and treatments - that is not yet the case for coronavirus and covid.  

And yes we need the economy to recover and perform well...that does not require us to drop ALL viral spread mitigations, when some are of limited or no inconvenience,  and why now...when waiting just a few months with see warmer weather and less spread of the current variant in the community.


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## Billysboots (Feb 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The vulnerable have been able to manage their risk in public feeling pretty safe in the knowledge that any viral infection they might pick up is very well understood and for which there are very effective vaccines and treatments - that is not yet the case for coronavirus and covid. 

And yes we need the economy to recover and perform well...that does not require us to drop ALL viral spread mitigations, when some are of limited or no inconvenience,  and why now...when waiting just a few months with see warmer weather and less spread of the current variant in the community.
		
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But what is your definition for “very well understood”? That seems to be the key to your argument for keeping restrictions in place, since we seem to already have extremely effective vaccines available, which have prevented the NHS being overwhelmed despite a massive number of infections.

You advocate waiting for the summer before easing restrictions, but what do you suggest when autumn and winter come around, and your rather unquantifiable suggestion that Covid is “very well understood” has not been met to your satisfaction? More restrictions? Another lockdown?

What you are effectively suggesting is a life of indefinite restrictions, and whilst I agree most are trifling, the ongoing requirement to self isolate most definitely isn’t.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Detention is a form of isolation.

The suggestion that there is no law to suggest you isolate with a notifiable disease was wrong.
		
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I'm pretty sure laws are more than just a suggestion. 
That law you quoted relates to detaining someone in hospital who has nowhere else to go. There is no law, other than for covid, that mandates a person to isolate themselves because of disease.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But what is your definition for “very well understood”? That seems to be the key to your argument for keeping restrictions in place, since we seem to already have extremely effective vaccines available, which have prevented the NHS being overwhelmed despite a massive number of infections.

You advocate waiting for the summer before easing restrictions, but what do you suggest when autumn and winter come around, and your rather unquantifiable suggestion that Covid is “very well understood” has not been met to your satisfaction? More restrictions? Another lockdown?

What you are effectively suggesting is a life of indefinite restrictions, and whilst I agree most are trifling, the ongoing requirement to self isolate most definitely isn’t.
		
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I would've liked to have seen masks remain compulsory on public transport and in essential shops such as supermarkets. That way the vulnerable have a little more protection and can feel more confident to go about their daily lives. I can't see why people would be unhappy with having to do that, but as we've seen from the start of this there are some selfish people that will play the "exempt" card to avoid having to wear a mask. The mask requirement could have been dropped for pubs, restaurants etc and the individual then has to make their own decision on whether they will attend those venues or not.


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## D-S (Feb 11, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would've liked to have seen masks remain compulsory on public transport and in essential shops such as supermarkets. That way the vulnerable have a little more protection and can feel more confident to go about their daily lives. I can't see why people would be unhappy with having to do that, but as we've seen from the start of this there are some selfish people that will play the "exempt" card to avoid having to wear a mask. The mask requirement could have been dropped for pubs, restaurants etc and the individual then has to make their own decision on whether they will attend those venues or not.
		
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I would have agreed with you re mask wearing to protect the vulnerable, but as stated earlier in this thread I have two old/elderly family members who contracted Covid from in one case visiting a fully masked and tested outpatient clinic and in the other via two visits to a fully masked supermarket. So, if you are very vulnerable everyone wearing masks in these public areas is not good enough protection as there is definitely risk in visiting such places.


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## Ethan (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Detention is a form of isolation.

The suggestion that there is no law to suggest you isolate with a notifiable disease was wrong.
		
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Isolation of infectious people, e.g. TB or others, has been on the books for years, as is enforced and supervised treatment if deemed necessary. There is a law, rarely used, called The National Assistance Act, which allows people to be removed from unsafe conditions, for their and others' protection. It is intended for people who fall outside the Mental Health Act but who live in squalid conditions. I remember we considered using it once for an eccentric but not mentally ill old guy who lived in a complete tip with vermin and troublesome smell, in a Northern town that shall not be named. Mental Health legislation obviously allows removal of people from their homes for mental health reasons, as well as treatment without their consent including medicinal and ECT.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Detention is a form of isolation.

The suggestion that there is no law to suggest you isolate with a notifiable disease was wrong.
		
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No it wasn’t; that is not a suggestion to isolate, it is detention, which is a completely different matter.


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## greenone (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I just can't see how people with Covid could simply mix with the general public and how it could be considered good news.
		
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when's the next election?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But what is your definition for “very well understood”? That seems to be the key to your argument for keeping restrictions in place, since we seem to already have extremely effective vaccines available, which have prevented the NHS being overwhelmed despite a massive number of infections.

You advocate waiting for the summer before easing restrictions, but what do you suggest when autumn and winter come around, and your rather unquantifiable suggestion that Covid is “very well understood” has not been met to your satisfaction? More restrictions? Another lockdown?

What you are effectively suggesting is a life of indefinite restrictions, and whilst I agree most are trifling, the ongoing requirement to self isolate most definitely isn’t.
		
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I don't believe he or anyone is suggesting 'a life of indefinite restrictions' rather that we should wait a little longer untill the timing is better.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			No it wasn’t; that is not a suggestion to isolate, it is detention, which is a completely different matter.
		
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It's only a detention where the infected had refused to isolate. That's fair enough and in line with most forms of public protection.  Surely you must understand that.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

D-S said:



			I would have agreed with you re mask wearing to protect the vulnerable, but as stated earlier in this thread I have two old/elderly family members who contracted Covid from in one case visiting a fully masked and tested outpatient clinic and in the other via two visits to a fully masked supermarket. So, if you are very vulnerable everyone wearing masks in these public areas is not good enough protection as there is definitely risk in visiting such places.
		
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Nothing is going to be completely safe, it's more a matter of mitigating risk through sensible precautions.  If it saves a small number of lives it's worthwhile.


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## D-S (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Nothing is going to be completely safe, it's more a matter of mitigating risk through sensible precautions.  If it saves a small number of lives it's worthwhile.
		
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My point is that mask wearing does not ‘make it safe’ for those who do want to have zero chance of catching the virus. If you are vulnerable or are unvaxxed you need to take more precautions - everyone else doing their bit and wearing masks isn’t enough.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

D-S said:



			My point is that mask wearing does not ‘make it safe’ for those who do want to have zero chance of catching the virus. If you are vulnerable or are unvaxxed you need to take more precautions - everyone else doing their bit and wearing masks isn’t enough.
		
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 But it's better than nothing.  There is no completely safe option so like in most life situations we take the best option available.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's better than nothing.  There is no completely safe option so like in most life situations we take the best option available.
		
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Just because it isn’t a rule anymore doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to wear a mask if you want to. I’ve just been into the village. Current rule here is masks are no longer required outdoors. People are still wearing masks.

People can just make their own choices.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Did you not read/understand the bit about 'not allowed to talk about'?!
		
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I read it as "they are announcing it now to distract us from other issues they don't want us talking about (e.g. investigations into office parties)". That was one of the arguments in the press in the morning news today. Apologies if it was in reference to something else.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Just because it isn’t a rule anymore doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to wear a mask if you want to. I’ve just been into the village. Current rule here is masks are no longer required outdoors. People are still wearing masks.

People can just make their own choices.
		
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My post was relating to the one I quoted where the poster was suggesting masks don't make it fully safe for vulnerable people. I was attempting to point out that nothing will be completely safe but it's better than nothing, also it's only been compulsory indoors.


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## Hobbit (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			My post was relating to the one I quoted where the poster was suggesting masks don't make it fully safe for vulnerable people. I was attempting to point out that nothing will be completely safe but it's better than nothing, also it's only been compulsory indoors.
		
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I think transmissibility is, almost, a bigger issue. The number of deaths is obviously something that should never be ignored nor forgotten but…

Two previous versions are worth considering, if only for context going forward. SARS has a mortality rate of 9.5%, and MERS has a mortality rate of 35%. Freakingly frightening but not highly transmissible. Covid’s mortality rate is less than 1%, but highly transmissible in its current variant.

If its highly transmissible but (now) rarely fatal in all apart from the vulnerable, just like winter flu, I’d be tempted to say the biggest problem now is fear.


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## Billysboots (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe he or anyone is suggesting 'a life of indefinite restrictions' rather that we should wait a little longer untill the timing is better.
		
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My point, though, is how long? SILH suggests waiting until Covid is “very well understood”, a point which is totally subjective. We are learning more about various illnesses all the time - cancer, MS, motor neurone and now Covid. At what point do we say enough is known about it to release the shackles?

In much the same way those like me are being accused of being rash in wanting restrictions eased, it could equally be argued that those who don’t are being unnecessarily cautious. Waiting until Covid is “very well understood” is not exactly a compelling rationale given the vagueness of it.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			My point, though, is how long? SILH suggests waiting until Covid is “very well understood”, a point which is totally subjective. We are learning more about various illnesses all the time - cancer, MS, motor neurone and now Covid. At what point do we say enough is known about it to release the shackles?

In much the same way those like me are being accused of *being rash in wanting restrictions eased*, it could equally be argued that those who don’t are being unnecessarily cautious. Waiting until Covid is “very well understood” is not exactly a compelling rationale given the vagueness of it.
		
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But it's not easing restrictions that's causing concern, it's removing them too early.    We would expect infections to become much lower as the weather improves and this seems like the right time to reduce them.   Personally I have concerns about infected people not isolating, I can see a case for contacts not isolating if free from symptoms and having a negative test. It would be interesting to see the views of SAGE.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			My point, though, is how long? SILH suggests waiting until Covid is “very well understood”, a point which is totally subjective. We are learning more about various illnesses all the time - cancer, MS, motor neurone and now Covid. At what point do we say enough is known about it to release the shackles?

In much the same way those like me are being accused of being rash in wanting restrictions eased, it could equally be argued that those who don’t are being unnecessarily cautious. Waiting until Covid is “very well understood” is not exactly a compelling rationale given the vagueness of it.
		
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Personally, I would have kept mask wearing until middle/end April by which time it's hopefully warming up and there's likely to be less indoor mixing as people move outside. Would also probably have kept isolation for those showing symptoms but apart from that drop the rest of the restrictions.


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## Billysboots (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			But it's not easing restrictions that's causing concern, it's removing them too early.    We would expect infections to become much lower as the weather improves and this seems like the right time to reduce them.   Personally I have concerns about infected people not isolating, I can see a case for contacts not isolating if free from symptoms and having a negative test. It would be interesting to see the views of SAGE.
		
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But again I say, clarify what you mean by “too early”.

We’ve all been totally brainwashed by the daily figures. Thousands upon thousands of infections, a couple of hundred deaths, however many in hospital who have tested positive. And it is precisely because of those daily figures that so many people are now absolutely bricking themselves about the easing of restrictions.

I would be really interested to see if the reluctance to see restrictions go was the same if we no longer saw these daily figures published. Whilst I accept the data is out there for those who who want to dissect it, the daily figures quoted in the news (infections and deaths) have long since lacked context and, to me at least, are largely meaningless.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			My point, though, is how long? SILH suggests waiting until Covid is “very well understood”, a point which is totally subjective. We are learning more about various illnesses all the time - cancer, MS, motor neurone and now Covid. At what point do we say enough is known about it to release the shackles?

In much the same way those like me are being accused of being rash in wanting restrictions eased, it could equally be argued that those who don’t are being unnecessarily cautious. Waiting until Covid is “very well understood” is not exactly a compelling rationale given the vagueness of it.
		
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I didn't say that.  I said that most common viruses that have been known for a some time - some for a very long time- are very well understood - as are the treatments and vaccination regimes for them.  This coronavirus is new and is  - almost by definition through limited experience - not as well understood, as neither can be vaccination regimes and treatments for covid and long covid.  So maybe let's just be a bit cautious for a while, and not quite so complacent as it seems we are about to become.


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## Billysboots (Feb 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I didn't say that.*  I said that most common viruses that have been known for a some time - some for a very long time- are very well understood - as are the treatments and vaccination regimes for them.  This coronavirus is new and is  - almost by definition through limited experience - not as well understood, as neither can be vaccination regimes and treatments for covid and long covid.  So maybe let's just be a bit cautious for a while, and not quite so complacent as it seems we are about to become.
		
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That’s pretty much exactly what you said!

You referred to other viruses having effective vaccines. Covid now does. You mentioned there being effective treatments to counter other viruses. I think even the most hardened sceptic would agree the medical profession is infinitely better at treating Covid now than it was in 2020. And we are adding to our knowledge of the virus all the time, just as we are with all illnesses.

You say we should be cautious for “a while”. I simply ask you, how long? Given we have the vaccines, treatments have improved massively and will continue to do so (in common with other serious illness), and we are learning about Covid all the while (in common with other serious illness), what, precisely, has to change for you to agree that releasing restrictions is appropriate?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 11, 2022)

In simple terms we have to move on even in hospital and mitigate as best we can for infection rates especially from variants. If you are worried wear a mask and get vaccinated. Other than that, there has to be a point, which seems to be now, to simply start moving on. How long do you want to wait for the "data" which invariably can be interpreted many ways to fit any scenario


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## larmen (Feb 11, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			In simple terms we have to move on even in hospital and mitigate as best we can for infection rates especially from variants. If you are worried wear a mask and get vaccinated. Other than that, there has to be a point, which seems to be now, to simply start moving on. How long do you want to wait for the "data" which invariably can be interpreted many ways to fit any scenario
		
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What did you guys do with people that were positive with SARS? When I was in hospital a few times from 2015 to 2017 I always had a test when arriving for stationary treatment.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But again I say, clarify what you mean by “too early”.

We’ve all been totally brainwashed by the daily figures. Thousands upon thousands of infections, a couple of hundred deaths, however many in hospital who have tested positive. And it is precisely because of those daily figures that so many people are now absolutely bricking themselves about the easing of restrictions.

I would be really interested to see if the reluctance to see restrictions go was the same if we no longer saw these daily figures published. Whilst I accept the data is out there for those who who want to dissect it, the daily figures quoted in the news (infections and deaths) have long since lacked context and, to me at least, are largely meaningless.
		
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I thought I had answered that a few times.  It's too early while infection rates and associated hospitalisations are so high.  I would suggest that when rates return to that of last summer then we should reconsider restrictions.  That's around 2K hospitalisations, 30 K infections a day, <50 deaths.
Also when the Scientists reccomend the time is right.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 11, 2022)

larmen said:



			What did you guys do with people that were positive with SARS? When I was in hospital a few times from 2015 to 2017 I always had a test when arriving for stationary treatment.
		
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We've not had a SARS as far as I'm aware but the protocol would be isolation in a side room and full PPE


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## Billysboots (Feb 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought I had answered that a few times.  It's too early while infection rates and associated hospitalisations are so high.  I would suggest that when rates return to that of last summer then we should reconsider restrictions.  That's around 2K hospitalisations, 30 K infections a day, <50 deaths.
Also when the Scientists reccomend the time is right.
		
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And therein lies the danger of relying on the daily figures which have little context. The virus has evolved. 30,000 infections a day now are not comparable to 30,000 infections a day last summer, when a different strain was dominant.


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## Foxholer (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			That’s pretty much exactly what you said!
...
		
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Twaddle!
Inferred or implied, perhaps - though that's pushing it. Or, much more likely imo, that's how you interpreted it!
But certainly not 'pretty much exactly what (he) said'!
Here's a copy of the post btw.


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The vulnerable have been able to manage their risk in public feeling pretty safe in the knowledge that any viral infection they might pick up is very well understood and for which there are very effective vaccines and treatments - that is not yet the case for coronavirus and covid. 

And yes we need the economy to recover and perform well...that does not require us to drop ALL viral spread mitigations, when some are of limited or no inconvenience,  and why now...when waiting *just a few months with see warmer weather and less spread of the current variant in the community.*

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And your question about 'how long' was also answered in SILH's post - the bit in bold!


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## Billysboots (Feb 11, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Twaddle!
Inferred or implied, perhaps - though that's pushing it. Or, much more likely imo, that's how you interpreted it!
But certainly not 'pretty much exactly what (he) said'!
Here's a copy of the post btw.

And your question about 'how long' was also answered in SILH's post - the bit in bold!
		
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Take the blinkers off. You don’t have to take issue with everything I post simply because it is me who posted it.

SILH wants to wait until there are effective vaccines, effective treatments, and until more is known about Covid. His post was quite clear. Given we have two of the three, we’re left waiting for more to be known. How much more do we need to know, that was my point.

I’m not going to keep saying it, merely for you to take issue, once again, with the poster rather than the post.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			And therein lies the danger of relying on the daily figures which have little context. The virus has evolved. 30,000 infections a day now are not comparable to 30,000 infections a day last summer, when a different strain was dominant.
		
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The major considerations are the ones your not mentioning. Deaths and Hospitalisations, in my opinion they're still too high to cast away all restrictions at this time.

I also said I would like to hear the opinion of SAGE before we take the next step.

You are not going to agree with my opinion on this and I'm not with yours so there's not much point in us both reiterating them.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 11, 2022)

It's impossible for me to give a definitive right or wrong about lifting restrictions. Whatever my opinion, I don't have the medical professionals and statisticians to back it up, and so I have to trust any decision will have support from those types of people.

My opinion is it WILL have their backing. And, given restrictions will inevitably be lifted at some point before Covid is eradicated, maybe next month is the right time? Maybe last month was? Maybe next year? Whenever it is though, it will always be too soon for some people, so this conversation is always likely to happen when the time comes. As a person with no access to advice from experts, it feels like it is a good time to lift all restrictions. Compared to where we were last year, it feels so much better. I've known quite a few who recently got it, some with medical conditions, and all have said it was like a light cold for a couple of days. I appreciate it isn't a cold, but I suspect if restrictions are lifted, then there is confidence that the vaccine is working, and the latest variant is significantly milder than the other variants that may be rare now. Then again, maybe more restrictions won't be lifted after all, if anything gives cause for concern.


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## Foxholer (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Take the blinkers off. You don’t have to take issue with everything I post simply because it is me who posted it.

SILH wants to wait until there are effective vaccines, effective treatments, and until more is known about Covid. His post was quite clear. Given we have two of the three, we’re left waiting for more to be known. How much more do we need to know, that was my point.

I’m not going to keep saying it, merely for you to take issue, once again, with the poster rather than the post.
		
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Never the poster! Only ever the content!
And I agree that there are effective vaccines and it also seems (I can't verify) that are effective treatments and that enough is known about Covid. His suggestion was a delay of a/the few months till the weather gets warmer and, at least if it follows the pattern of other variants, the number of cases reduces significantly. I'd reduce that to end of March or April, but the current point does seem to me to be too early.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 11, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Just because it isn’t a rule anymore doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to wear a mask if you want to. I’ve just been into the village. Current rule here is masks are no longer required outdoors. People are still wearing masks.

People can just make their own choices.
		
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At the risk of going around in circles, we know already what you have said here.

But the "debate" is whether mask wearing should continue to be required in certain areas, like public transport, supermarkets,  a little longer , say until the fine weather.
This is on the basis that wearing masks protects not only the wearer but others as well. Places like public transport , supermarkets, cannot be avoided by some people whose health makes them vulnerable to infection. Why remove their present level of protection now at a time of high infection rates.
For the want of awaiting springtime?
It smacks of dogma overriding empathy. And it is such a little inconvenience .We should be better than that.

The question of isolating and its effects on business/employment etc is a different matter.


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## theoneandonly (Feb 11, 2022)

Jeez bring back the the Brexit thread 🤣🤣


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 11, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			But again I say, clarify what you mean by “too early”.

We’ve all been totally brainwashed by the daily figures. Thousands upon thousands of infections, a couple of hundred deaths, however many in hospital who have tested positive. And it is precisely because of those daily figures that so many people are now absolutely bricking themselves about the easing of restrictions.

I would be really interested to see if the reluctance to see restrictions go was the same if we no longer saw these daily figures published. Whilst I accept the data is out there for those who who want to dissect it, the daily figures quoted in the news (infections and deaths) have long since lacked context and, to me at least, are largely meaningless.
		
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Blimey, Billy, re your last paragraph. Why are they largely meaningless just because they are reported? And continue to be.?
They are facts, continued facts. They are people , and they are as relevant to their families as the figures of the first month's victims of the pandemic were to their families. 
I'm being as careful now as I have been throughout precisely because the figures are high where I live, much higher than previously.
When they go down, as they will , then I'll ease back into normality because we will be much nearer herd immunity, and better treatments etc ( of which you speak), but for me at my age an infection will be a much larger risk than most. The later I get it, I figure the better my chances - likely lower viral load etc..
So why push now for removing slight inconveniences instead of waiting a couple of months, say? 

( As I have said elsewhere, isolating is another question)


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 11, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We've not had a SARS as far as I'm aware but the protocol would be isolation in a side room and full PPE
		
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https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/sars/

There has not been a reported case of SARS since 2004.  When work on a COVID vaccination started there were fears expressed that it would not be achievable because one hadn’t been developed for SARS.  It would probably be nearer the truth to say that one hadn’t been developed because SARS no longer appeared to be an issue.


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## Billysboots (Feb 12, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Blimey, Billy, re your last paragraph. Why are they largely meaningless just because they are reported? And continue to be.?
They are facts, continued facts.
		
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As I said much earlier in this thread, they are facts which lack any context whatsoever. 

They will remain meaningless to me until such time as the number of deaths reported include detail such as age group, vaccination status, underlying conditions and so on. For news outlets to simply say x number of people have died within 28 days of a positive Covid test tells us, with respect, very little about this pandemic.

I know the data is squirrelled away out there somewhere, I am referring to the numbers reported in the press/media.


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			As I said much earlier in this thread, they are facts which lack any context whatsoever.

They will remain meaningless to me until such time as the number of deaths reported include detail such as age group, vaccination status, underlying conditions and so on. For news outlets to simply say x number of people have died within 28 days of a positive Covid test tells us, with respect, very little about this pandemic.

I know the data is squirrelled away out there somewhere, I am referring to the numbers reported in the press/media.
		
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The data is on the ONS website. If you need that data to form a more meaningful conclusion for you, it’s there. Ignore the media if it’s meaningless. Simples.


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## Imurg (Feb 12, 2022)

Dramatic reduction of mask wearing in Tesco this morning...I was probably in the minority...


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## Billysboots (Feb 12, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			The data is on the ONS website. If you need that data to form a more meaningful conclusion for you, it’s there. Ignore the media if it’s meaningless. Simples.
		
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I know it’s out there. And it’s not too much to ask surely for the press to use that data to add context. But that doesn’t suit the agenda they’ve had from day one.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 12, 2022)

Took me mum Out today. First time
In months due to Covid and hospitalised. Been to Boundry mills and Dunelm. I wish we were still in lockdown 😖


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I know it’s out there. And it’s not too much to ask surely for the press to use that data to add context. But that doesn’t suit the agenda they’ve had from day one.
		
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And that's probably a big issue. Most people get their info from the press.

At the start of Covid, making the population fearful was what was required to encourage them to follow the restrictions. It was needed at the time, and the press love that, and so they went to town. Negative stories sell, and nothing gets the public going more than discussing negative issues. 

However, when it is time to come out of restrictions, the opposite was / is required. The population need to generally feel confident, comfortable and positive about getting back to normal, especially after many have lived in fear for quite some time (understandably). The media are shocking at this, it just is not in their interest. It doesn't fit their agenda, nor sell their papers (I'd love to know how many newspaper headlines in the last few decades are negative stories, compared to positive ones). If analysis of 1000 official stats show positive results, the press will ignore them all, or find 1 that could be interpreted as negative and focus on that.

So, I agree with Billy. I have zero faith in any of the press, including mainstream, giving us honest news, or at least fair opinions. Personally, I'm not going to research the official stats myself, what's the point? If it is mandatory to continue with certain restrictions, then I'll accept it and comply. If they are relaxed, I will accept that and see that as positive news. So much negativity in last 3 to 4 years to be honest, so I'm taking any positive signs that come my way very seriously.


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## Billysboots (Feb 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			And that's probably a big issue. Most people get their info from the press.

At the start of Covid, making the population fearful was what was required to encourage them to follow the restrictions. It was needed at the time, and the press love that, and so they went to town. Negative stories sell, and nothing gets the public going more than discussing negative issues.

However, when it is time to come out of restrictions, the opposite was / is required. The population need to generally feel confident, comfortable and positive about getting back to normal, especially after many have lived in fear for quite some time (understandably). The media are shocking at this, it just is not in their interest. It doesn't fit their agenda, nor sell their papers (I'd love to know how many newspaper headlines in the last few decades are negative stories, compared to positive ones). If analysis of 1000 official stats show positive results, the press will ignore them all, or find 1 that could be interpreted as negative and focus on that.

So, I agree with Billy. I have zero faith in any of the press, including mainstream, giving us honest news, or at least fair opinions. Personally, I'm not going to research the official stats myself, what's the point? If it is mandatory to continue with certain restrictions, then I'll accept it and comply. If they are relaxed, I will accept that and see that as positive news. So much negativity in last 3 to 4 years to be honest, so I'm taking any positive signs that come my way very seriously.
		
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Spot on. In the main I now see life going on all around me in much the same way as it was pre-pandemic. Busy pubs and restaurants, the golf clubhouse back to its normal routine, and shops doing a decent trade.

There is still reasonable take-up in the wearing of face coverings in confined spaces, especially on public transport, which I use several times a week. And before anyone asks, yes, I am one of those who respects fellow passengers by wearing one.

What I see on this forum is a lingering reluctance to return to a way of life which most now seem to be enjoying. I see suggestions that we should wait a few more weeks, or until the weather is warmer, more is known about Covid, and so on, before we return to something like normality. But I don’t see members at my golf club having to self isolate en masse because of Covid. Same goes for my local pub. Occasionally someone will disappear for a few days, having to self isolate in line with current guidance, not because they are symptomatic.

I do not for one moment dispute the fact that people have died as a result of Covid. And when I say the daily figures are meaningless to me I’m not saying that death is meaningless, merely that the numbers quoted lack context and, as such, meaning.

Beyond this forum, and this thread in particular, I rarely hear Covid mentioned any more. I absolutely understand that there are people both here, and in the wider community, who remain cautious. That is their right, and one which I respect. But equally I would ask that people respect my opinion, that being that the removal of all restrictions is now appropriate. 

The most telling post here in some considerable time was added by Homer yesterday. Here is a fella who has seen more than most of us the impact of Covid and yet even he now opines that the time is right for us to start getting on with life. That must surely tell us all something.

My intention now is to draw a line under my involvement in this thread. My opinion is well known, and I have little wish to cross swords any further with other forum members who hold opposing views. Life is too short, and I enjoy dipping into these boards. I don’t come here to argue, despite some of the more strongly worded responses.

I apologise to anyone who I may have offended or upset with my comments. Stay safe and well all, and continue to do what is right for you.


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## RichA (Feb 12, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Spot on. In the main I now see life going on all around me in much the same way as it was pre-pandemic. Busy pubs and restaurants, the golf clubhouse back to its normal routine, and shops doing a decent trade.

There is still reasonable take-up in the wearing of face coverings in confined spaces, especially on public transport, which I use several times a week. And before anyone asks, yes, I am one of those who respects fellow passengers by wearing one.

What I see on this forum is a lingering reluctance to return to a way of life which most now seem to be enjoying. I see suggestions that we should wait a few more weeks, or until the weather is warmer, more is known about Covid, and so on, before we return to something like normality. But I don’t see members at my golf club having to self isolate en masse because of Covid. Same goes for my local pub. Occasionally someone will disappear for a few days, having to self isolate in line with current guidance, not because they are symptomatic.

I do not for one moment dispute the fact that people have died as a result of Covid. And when I say the daily figures are meaningless to me I’m not saying that death is meaningless, merely that the numbers quoted lack context and, as such, meaning.

Beyond this forum, and this thread in particular, I rarely hear Covid mentioned any more. I absolutely understand that there are people both here, and in the wider community, who remain cautious. That is their right, and one which I respect. But equally I would ask that people respect my opinion, that being that the removal of all restrictions is now appropriate.

The most telling post here in some considerable time was added by Homer yesterday. Here is a fella who has seen more than most of us the impact of Covid and yet even he now opines that the time is right for us to start getting on with life. That must surely tell us all something.

My intention now is to draw a line under my involvement in this thread. My opinion is well known, and I have little wish to cross swords any further with other forum members who hold opposing views. Life is too short, and I enjoy dipping into these boards. I don’t come here to argue, despite some of the more strongly worded responses.

I apologise to anyone who I may have offended or upset with my comments. Stay safe and well all, and continue to do what is right for you.
		
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I'm a cautious, mask wearing commuter with vulnerable friends and an elderly father.
For what it's worth, I agree with you. 
It's a dreadful thing to say, as they are all somebody's mother, father, son, daughter, friend or other loved relative - but the daily statistics have become as meaningless as the weather forecast or football results. Read it, move on.
When I hear people close to me ask, "What were the numbers today?" I find myself just sighing. 
Maybe the waiting lists for treatable conditions have become more relevant, but there's little I can do about those too and seeing the stats will probably just depress me even more.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

I keep hearing that those who are cautious regarding all precautions being removed this month are hanging on to pointless statistics and taking too much notice of the numbers branded in the press, that they want restrictions to remain for ever.    These type of accusations are somewhat insulting in my opinion. 

Many (myself included)  feel uncomfortable with the concept of people with Covid (Not contacts) not being required to isolate until their infectious period has lapsed. All I want are sensible precautions (And that's what they are, precautions rather than restrictions, I don't believe anyone is asking for more lockdowns) to be kept in place until the Experts are confident we are at the right point in time to remove them.  It seems to me that there are a number now that use the term 'Live with Covid' as a substitute for 'Ignore Covid'

There has been what seems like an off the cuff comment that we may be removing precautions in the next few weeks, it hasn't been a hard and fast policy yet but maybe what could be more diversionary to blow the scent from other matters.

I just cannot see how such a change could be considered without the support of scientific approval.  I do understand how some are tired of the whole Covid situation, I'm sick and tired of it myself but thats not a good enough reason to jump in feet first.


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2022)

Not totally united in Godzone country!
Some 'interesting' tactics employed!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-60362529


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## D-S (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep hearing that those who are cautious regarding all precautions being removed this month are hanging on to pointless statistics and taking too much notice of the numbers branded in the press, that they want restrictions to remain for ever.    These type of accusations are somewhat insulting in my opinion. 

Many (myself included)  feel uncomfortable with the concept of people with Covid (Not contacts) not being required to isolate until their infectious period has lapsed. All I want are sensible precautions (And that's what they are, precautions rather than restrictions, I don't believe anyone is asking for more lockdowns) to be kept in place until the Experts are confident we are at the right point in time to remove them.  It seems to me that there are a number now that use the term 'Live with Covid' as a substitute for 'Ignore Covid'

There has been what seems like an off the cuff comment that we may be removing precautions in the next few weeks, it hasn't been a hard and fast policy yet but maybe what could be more diversionary to blow the scent from other matters.

I just cannot see how such a change could be considered without the support of scientific approval.  I do understand how some are tired of the whole Covid situation, I'm sick and tired of it myself but thats not a good enough reason to jump in feet first.
		
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I understand your concern and fear but if those that are worried just keep wearing masks, isolating, social distancing and avoiding any crowded places that is absolutely fine but let’s not make their fears impinge on the lives of the vast numbers of people who think differently, including our current leaders. The worried don’t need to interact with others, they can continue to lead their lives how they want to but let others live theirs.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

D-S said:



			I understand your concern and fear but if those that are worried just keep wearing masks, isolating, social distancing and avoiding any crowded places that is absolutely fine but let’s not make their fears impinge on the lives of the vast numbers of people who think differently, including our current leaders. The worried don’t need to interact with others, they can continue to lead their lives how they want to but let others live theirs.
		
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It doesn't work like that. To mitigate the worse effects of the virus we need most people being cautious and not have others impinge on the lives of vast numbers of people who think differently.

Do you have any evidence vast numbers or even a majority agree with your preference.


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep hearing that those who are cautious regarding all precautions being removed this month are hanging on to pointless statistics and taking too much notice of the numbers branded in the press, that they want restrictions to remain for ever.    These type of accusations are somewhat insulting in my opinion.

Many (myself included)  feel uncomfortable with the concept of people with Covid (Not contacts) not being required to isolate until their infectious period has lapsed. All I want are sensible precautions (And that's what they are, precautions rather than restrictions, I don't believe anyone is asking for more lockdowns) to be kept in place until the Experts are confident we are at the right point in time to remove them.  It seems to me that there are a number now that use the term 'Live with Covid' as a substitute for 'Ignore Covid'

There has been what seems like an off the cuff comment that we may be removing precautions in the next few weeks, it hasn't been a hard and fast policy yet but maybe what could be more diversionary to blow the scent from other matters.

I just cannot see how such a change could be considered without the support of scientific approval.  I do understand how some are tired of the whole Covid situation, I'm sick and tired of it myself but thats not a good enough reason to jump in feet first.
		
Click to expand...

1) I’ve not heard anyone say the restrictions should remain forever.

2) Precautions ‘v’ restrictions. I think you’re playing with semantics. One person’s precaution might be the next person’s restriction.

3) It’s your interpretation to say “ignore.” A bit of hyperbole?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2022)

So all the relevant significant numbers in regards serious illness and deaths because of Covid are on the decrease, all the decisions have been based on the numbers so that’s how they are moving forward - using the numbers.

People can now make their own choices 

They can avoid crowded areas , wear masks and continue with all the sanitising 

Many people need to move on now , everything needs to recover to get us back to normal as best as we can.


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## IanM (Feb 12, 2022)

I've stopped watching the news.  

Life is much better without all that negativity!


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 12, 2022)

Correct.  If you don't like it out there, don't go out.    And stop moaning about it.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			1) I’ve not heard anyone say the restrictions should remain forever.

2) Precautions ‘v’ restrictions. I think you’re playing with semantics. One person’s precaution might be the next person’s restriction.

3) It’s your interpretation to say “ignore.” A bit of hyperbole?
		
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1) The accusation is used against those who feel we need some more time before discarding precautions. (You may want restrictions/Lockdowns indefinitely)

2) Mask wearing and isolating the Infected are precautions but 'Restrictions' is used as it sounds more like an infringement of liberties.

3) 'Living with Covid' has been branded around for a long time now but there never appears to be an explanation of how we should be doing this, I can only assume that it means we should ignore it's existence, similar to what's being suggested right now that infected people just get on with it however they see fit. In my opinion that's 'ignoring it' and not hyperbole


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2022)

IanM said:



			I've stopped watching the news. 

Life is much better without all that negativity!  

Click to expand...

No it's not!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Correct.  If you don't like it out there, don't go out.    And stop moaning about it.
		
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Ah! So whatever goes on out there if you don't like it then stay indoors and stop moaning.  Cosmic.


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## Hobbit (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			1) The accusation is used against those who feel we need some more time before discarding precautions. (You may want restrictions/Lockdowns indefinitely)

2) Mask wearing and isolating the Infected are precautions but 'Redtrictions' is used as it sounds more like an infringement of liberties.

3) 'Living with Covid' has been branded around for a long time now but there never appears to be an explanation of how we should be doing this, I can only assume that it means we should ignore it's existence, similar to what's being suggested right now that infected people just get on with it however they see fit. In my opinion that's 'ignoring it' and not hyperbole
		
Click to expand...

See post #25,402


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			1) The accusation is used against those who feel we need some more time before discarding precautions. (You may want restrictions/Lockdowns indefinitely)

2) Mask wearing and isolating the Infected are precautions but 'Restrictions' is used as it sounds more like an infringement of liberties.

3) 'Living with Covid' has been branded around for a long time now but there never appears to be an explanation of how we should be doing this, I can only assume that it means we should ignore it's existence, similar to what's being suggested right now that infected people just get on with it however they see fit. In my opinion that's 'ignoring it' and not hyperbole
		
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Living with Covid = treating it like the flu with a few extra self precautions 

if you feel ill  -stay at home 

If you have symptoms stay at home 

Take a booster each year


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Living with Covid = treating it like the flu with a few extra self precautions

if you feel ill  -stay at home

If you have symptoms stay at home

Take a booster each year
		
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It's not Flu.

Many people won't stay at home if they don't have to.

Yes, why not take a booster.  That's nothing to do with what's been said though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not Flu.

Many people won't stay at home if they don't have to.

Yes, why not take a booster.  That's nothing to do with what's been said though.
		
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1. No one said it was the flu 

2. And many people will stay at home 

3. and taking a booster is part of “Living with Covid” -


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 12, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Living with Covid = treating it like the flu with a few extra self precautions

if you feel ill  -stay at home

If you have symptoms stay at home

Take a booster each year
		
Click to expand...

It isn't like flu though and has the capability of being very serious as I see every day. Some won't stay in even if they have symptoms and so risk spreading it around. Even the vulnerable have to go out sometimes (doctor appointment etc) so its not as simple as getting on with it for everyone. It isn't feasible to stay in all the time and at the very least it can't have any positive effect on a persons mental well being


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep hearing that those who are cautious regarding all precautions being removed this month are hanging on to pointless statistics and taking too much notice of the numbers branded in the press, that they want restrictions to remain for ever.    These type of accusations are somewhat insulting in my opinion.

Many (myself included)  feel uncomfortable with the concept of people with Covid (Not contacts) not being required to isolate until their infectious period has lapsed. All I want are sensible precautions (And that's what they are, precautions rather than restrictions, I don't believe anyone is asking for more lockdowns) to be kept in place until the Experts are confident we are at the right point in time to remove them.  It seems to me that there are a number now that use the term 'Live with Covid' as a substitute for 'Ignore Covid'

There has been what seems like an off the cuff comment that we may be removing precautions in the next few weeks, it hasn't been a hard and fast policy yet but maybe what could be more diversionary to blow the scent from other matters.

I just cannot see how such a change could be considered without the support of scientific approval.  I do understand how some are tired of the whole Covid situation, I'm sick and tired of it myself but thats not a good enough reason to jump in feet first.
		
Click to expand...

Which experts? 

When these decisions are made, they are based on discussions with many experts, who lead very large teams of other experts. If they basically feel we should not ease restrictions, and their expertise is completely ignored, then I'm sure they'd resign on mass. And, I don't see any benefit in ignoring the experts.

That doesn't mean any decision goes from 100% restriction needed to 100% no restriction needed. It is a balancing act. No doubt people in these teams challenge the pros and cons of each decision, before making a judgement call on the right decision. It is why we'll see experts, and many independent ones, giving opposing views in the media. There are pros and cons to every decision. 

So, for me, I'm inclined to believe that any changes that occur with restrictions will have been backed by well respected experts.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Many people won't stay at home if they don't have to.
		
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Also many can't afford to either


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Also many can't afford to either
		
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True


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## RichA (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep hearing that those who are cautious regarding all precautions being removed this month are hanging on to pointless statistics and taking too much notice of the numbers branded in the press, that they want restrictions to remain for ever.    These type of accusations are somewhat insulting in my opinion. 

Many (myself included)  feel uncomfortable with the concept of people with Covid (Not contacts) not being required to isolate until their infectious period has lapsed. All I want are sensible precautions (And that's what they are, precautions rather than restrictions, I don't believe anyone is asking for more lockdowns) to be kept in place until the Experts are confident we are at the right point in time to remove them.  It seems to me that there are a number now that use the term 'Live with Covid' as a substitute for 'Ignore Covid'

There has been what seems like an off the cuff comment that we may be removing precautions in the next few weeks, it hasn't been a hard and fast policy yet but maybe what could be more diversionary to blow the scent from other matters.

I just cannot see how such a change could be considered without the support of scientific approval.  I do understand how some are tired of the whole Covid situation, I'm sick and tired of it myself but thats not a good enough reason to jump in feet first.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies if my comment was insulting. That wasn't my intention.
I'm clumsily trying to say that a totally depersonalised daily figure of how many humans died yesterday has become an obsession for some of us and a meaningless statistic for others.
I'm not entirely certain which camp I occupy, which causes me to think I've become desensitised to it, which I don't believe is healthy.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Which experts?

When these decisions are made, they are based on discussions with many experts, who lead very large teams of other experts. If they basically feel we should not ease restrictions, and their expertise is completely ignored, then I'm sure they'd resign on mass. And, I don't see any benefit in ignoring the experts.

That doesn't mean any decision goes from 100% restriction needed to 100% no restriction needed. It is a balancing act. No doubt people in these teams challenge the pros and cons of each decision, before making a judgement call on the right decision. It is why we'll see experts, and many independent ones, giving opposing views in the media. There are pros and cons to every decision.

So, for me, I'm inclined to believe that any changes that occur with restrictions will have been backed by well respected experts.
		
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SAGE.    I'm not confident the off the cuff comment made was as a result of expert opinion.

Look at your own post #25,367


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

RichA said:



			Apologies if my comment was insulting. That wasn't my intention.
I'm clumsily trying to say that a totally depersonalised daily figure of how many humans died yesterday has become an obsession for some of us and a meaningless statistic for others.
I'm not entirely certain which camp I occupy, which causes me to think I've become desensitised to it, which I don't believe is healthy.
		
Click to expand...

The numbers are depersonalised but they are real people, loved ones like our own.


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## Foxholer (Feb 12, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Which experts?

When these decisions are made, they are based on discussions with many experts, who lead very large teams of other experts. If they basically feel we should not ease restrictions, and their expertise is completely ignored, then I'm sure they'd resign on mass. And, I don't see any benefit in ignoring the experts.

That doesn't mean any decision goes from 100% restriction needed to 100% no restriction needed. It is a balancing act. No doubt people in these teams challenge the pros and cons of each decision, before making a judgement call on the right decision. It is why we'll see experts, and many independent ones, giving opposing views in the media. There are pros and cons to every decision.

So, for me, I'm inclined to believe that any changes that occur with restrictions will have been backed by well respected experts.
		
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Yeah... riiight!


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## PNWokingham (Feb 12, 2022)

D-S said:



			I understand your concern and fear but if those that are worried just keep wearing masks, isolating, social distancing and avoiding any crowded places that is absolutely fine but let’s not make their fears impinge on the lives of the vast numbers of people who think differently, including our current leaders. The worried don’t need to interact with others, they can continue to lead their lives how they want to but let others live theirs.
		
Click to expand...

Sums it up very well. Totally agree. And I believe it is by far the majority view of the population despite the constant negativity of some towards this move to normality


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## SocketRocket (Feb 12, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Sums it up very well. Totally agree. And I believe it is by far the majority view of the population despite the constant negativity of some towards this move to normality
		
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And you know it's the view of the majority how?  I feel you have no idea if that's the case.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			And you know it's the view of the majority how?  I feel you have no idea if that's the case.
		
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There has been no surveys but 90% or so of views I have heard are fine with this. You can stay locked up or whatever makes you feel safe and everyone else can do what feels right for them.

I will further add that apart from this thread it is an almost non event of conversation. People are putting covid and covid worries behind them and getting on with life. Some of those still wear masks in some places, most don't in most places. Covid is very real but so is cancer, heart disease, depression etc. And similarly, they are not main topics of conversation in the workplace, pub, home, golf club or elsewhere. They are realities of life to a greater or lesser degree.


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## bobmac (Feb 13, 2022)

So some say we should get on with our lives and some are more cautious.
How am I doing so far?


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So some say we should get on with our lives and some are more cautious.
How am I doing so far?
		
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It’s a good start. 

Bearing in mind the Covid situation that was before us two years ago, the precautions, restrictions, lockdowns and general practices around hand washing etc were essential. However, what is the Covid situation now? Vaccines have been rolled out, and boosters. Anti-virals are becoming available, and the general treatment of patients is no longer a suck it and see lottery.

And what of Covid itself? The current variant is highly transmissible but it’s mortality rate ‘v’ infection isn’t high. But that’s misleading. The number of deaths is still as high, though dropping, as the worst flu epidemic that’s been seen for many, many years.

One of the main targets of the precautions/restrictions etc was to protect the NHS. Job done. The stats suggest it’s the old and/or the vulnerable that are the vast majority who die. What can be done to protect them, and what can they do to protect themselves? We’re back to vaccines and treatments. But what about masks? No one is stopping them from wearing them, and no one is stopping them buying a decent mask that offers proper protection.

”Learning to live with Covid” isn’t ignoring it, it’s accepting that it’s there and making reasonable adjustments that might mitigate its potential impact. Those adjustments don’t need to include everyone. 

Lift the restrictions but take the precautions on an individual basis. And let’s not forget that restrictions can be reimposed if the next variant is a nasty one.

I, for one, at 63 with a dodgy ticker(3 heart attacks), obesity and diabetes intend to get on with living. If others want to stay at the back of their cave till they feel safer, it’s their choice. I’m not imposing on you, so please don’t impose on me.


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			...
Lift the restrictions but take the precautions on an individual basis. And let’s not forget that restrictions can be reimposed if the next variant is a nasty one.

I, for one, at 63 with a dodgy ticker(3 heart attacks), obesity and *diabetes* intend to get on with living. If others want to stay at the back of their cave till they feel safer, it’s their choice. I’m not imposing on you, so please don’t impose on me.
		
Click to expand...

Makes a lot of sense, even if the reason for lifting of restrictiona may not have been entirely clinically based.
From the numbers I've seen, diabetics seem to be at the top of the 'died with Covid' list, so stay vigilent!


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2022)

Just off out for my second booster. #feelingprotectedinSpain


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			There has been no surveys but 90% or so of views I have heard are fine with this. You can stay locked up or whatever makes you feel safe and everyone else can do what feels right for them.

I will further add that apart from this thread it is an almost non event of conversation. People are putting covid and covid worries behind them and getting on with life. Some of those still wear masks in some places, most don't in most places. Covid is very real but so is cancer, heart disease, depression etc. And similarly, they are not main topics of conversation in the workplace, pub, home, golf club or elsewhere. They are realities of life to a greater or lesser degree.
		
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So you don't know. 

The biggest concern I've heard is that people with Covid would be free to circulate if they wished, how are vulnerable people supposed to shield against that, I guess the answer is lock themselves away from society.   If that's the view of the general public then I despair but I'm not so sure it is the general view.


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## Fade and Die (Feb 13, 2022)

If my trip to the theatre yesterday was anything to go by, (Dirty Dancing 😎👍) most people have put it behind them. Tube, theatre, pub and restaurant all very busy, only a few masks being worn (inc me and the Mrs on the tube) everyone having a good time.


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## road2ruin (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So you don't know.

The biggest concern I've heard is that people with Covid would be free to circulate if they wished, how are vulnerable people supposed to shield against that, I guess the answer is lock themselves away from society.   If that's the view of the general public then I despair but I'm not so sure it is the general view.
		
Click to expand...

But whether that’s the end of February or six months down the line that’s going to happen anyway. There will be the point at which all restrictions are lifted.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 13, 2022)

Just been to Costco, first time in over 2 years, mask wearing is about 50/50.

I will still wear one indoors, I’ve 2 vulnerable people at home and will continue to do what I believe is best for them, not worth worrying what others do as I have no control over strangers.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So you don't know.

The biggest concern I've heard is that people with Covid would be free to circulate if they wished,* how are vulnerable people supposed to shield against that*, I guess the answer is lock themselves away from society.   If that's the view of the general public then I despair but I'm not so sure it is the general view.
		
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Keep a distance where possible, wear a mask, get jabbed/boosted, all the tings we have all been told to do for the last two years. May be a bit of a hard nosed attitude but is it right that the vast majority shoud still face restrictions to protect the very few?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Keep a distance where possible, wear a mask, get jabbed/boosted, all the tings we have all been told to do for the last two years. May be a bit of a hard nosed attitude but is it right that the vast majority shoud still face restrictions to protect the very few?
		
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Thats the way a civilised, caring society works, we look after the vulnerable, especially when it's not putting us out much.   If we were to apply a similar attitude shown by a number here to all those needing our help and support then it's a very poor reflection on society.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats the way a civilised, caring society works, we look after the vulnerable, especially when it's not putting us out much.   If we were to apply a similar attitude shown by a number here to all those needing our help and support then it's a very poor reflection on society.
		
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that is an extremely disingenous statement. Nobody is saying not to support vulnerable but rules cannot be kept in place to have only the smallest impact on samll portion of the population. If you are vulnerable you take a much more cautious attitude to being indoors at busy times. As has been mentioned many times and i am not going there again, masks help a bit but omicrom will rip through wherever it wants. And most who catch it will be fine. Like Billy, these points have been repeated enough and i won't bother any more


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## D-S (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats the way a civilised, caring society works, we look after the vulnerable, especially when it's not putting us out much.   If we were to apply a similar attitude shown by a number here to all those needing our help and support then it's a very poor reflection on society.
		
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So your date for easing restrictions is never?  I assume most of those who die of flu each year fall into the vulnerable category too, so masks in crowded areas, social distancing, table service only, rule of six etc.etc. will need to remain in place indefinitely otherwise we are not ‘a civilised, caring society “.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			that is an extremely disingenous statement. Nobody is saying not to support vulnerable but rules cannot be kept in place to have only the smallest impact on samll portion of the population. If you are vulnerable you take a much more cautious attitude to being indoors at busy times. As has been mentioned many times and i am not going there again, masks help a bit but omicrom will rip through wherever it wants. And most who catch it will be fine. Like Billy, these points have been repeated enough and i won't bother any more
		
Click to expand...

That's fine but if you do then expect it to be challenged.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats the way a civilised, caring society works, we look after the vulnerable, especially when it's not putting us out much.   If we were to apply a similar attitude shown by a number here to all those needing our help and support then it's a very poor reflection on society.
		
Click to expand...

If I wanted to guarantee not negatively impacting on the vulnerable, then my only option would be to never leave the house again. If I even gave a slight cold to a very vulnerable person, that could be extremely serious for them. 

However, if it turns out restrictions will ease further very soon, and Witty and Co come out and say they are happy with this decision, would you he happy?


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2022)

This seems to be a circle of some people saying ‘not yet’ and others who insist on interpreting that as meaning ‘forever’. 

The idea is to hold off until case numbers are low enough so that increasing exposure by reducing measures does not cause cases to significantly rise again. The idea that everybody is going to get it so may as well get it now is both wrong and dangerous and can only be said by people who think it’s just a cold. It isn’t.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2022)

Ethan said:



			This seems to be a circle of some people saying ‘not yet’ and others who insist on interpreting that as meaning ‘forever’.

The idea is to hold off until case numbers are low enough so that increasing exposure by reducing measures does not cause cases to significantly rise again. The idea that everybody is going to get it so may as well get it now is both wrong and dangerous and can only be said by people who think it’s just a cold. It isn’t.
		
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What should the number of new cases be though?

I've not been keeping track, but just had a quick look and it seems the number of new cases now are pretty much 1/3 of what they were at start of January. The rate of decline looks huge. Although still generally high compared to all periods within the pandemic, the number of tests done must be monumentally higher. We have gone from pretty much no tests, to tests for those who have symptoms to pretty much everyone can walk into a chemist and get lateral flow tests when they please. I bet loads of companies have asked staff to do these regularly as part of health and safety, ours has. So, the number of new cases may not be all that high at all, if we had the same level.of testing throughout.

And, for those that do get Covid, it does appear the symptoms are significantly less severe than had they been infected in 2020. 

As others have said  life already feels like it is completely back to normal. Shake hands after golf, eat and drink in club house, no masks, etc. Yet it appears case numbers are still on a sharp decline.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			So your date for easing restrictions is never?  I assume most of those who die of flu each year fall into the vulnerable category too, so masks in crowded areas, social distancing, table service only, rule of six etc.etc. will need to remain in place indefinitely otherwise we are not ‘a civilised, caring society “.
		
Click to expand...

Without wanting to keep going around in circles here you keep ignoring a few points.

No one is suggesting we continue with Covid precautions 'for ever' that's been clarified over again.  From my perspective now is a bit too soon, that's all.

It has been explained in detail a number of times that Covid isn't the same as Flu, it has the potential to be very much more damaging to people's long term health.

I accept there needs to be some balance and agree we don't want to have these precautions longer than necessary.


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## Hobbit (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Without wanting to keep going around in circles here you keep ignoring a few points.

No one is suggesting we continue with Covid precautions 'for ever' that's been clarified over again.  From my perspective now is a bit too soon, that's all.

It has been explained in detail a number of times that Covid isn't the same as Flu, it has the potential to be very much more damaging to people's long term health.

I accept there needs to be some balance and agree we don't want to have these precautions longer than necessary.
		
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Not disputing your points but would highlight something that I feel we all need a better understanding. People almost always say Covid this and Covid that… which Covid? The current version is highly transmissible but not as deadly to the majority. Previous versions were not quite as transmissible but more deadly.

Whatever decision is reached should be based on how dangerous the variant, not it’s Covid. I feel there’s too many people basing their belief on it’s Covid, not it’s this variant or that variant.


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			What should the number of new cases be though?

I've not been keeping track, but just had a quick look and it seems the number of new cases now are pretty much 1/3 of what they were at start of January. The rate of decline looks huge. Although still generally high compared to all periods within the pandemic, the number of tests done must be monumentally higher. We have gone from pretty much no tests, to tests for those who have symptoms to pretty much everyone can walk into a chemist and get lateral flow tests when they please. I bet loads of companies have asked staff to do these regularly as part of health and safety, ours has. So, the number of new cases may not be all that high at all, if we had the same level.of testing throughout.

And, for those that do get Covid, it does appear the symptoms are significantly less severe than had they been infected in 2020.

As others have said  life already feels like it is completely back to normal. Shake hands after golf, eat and drink in club house, no masks, etc. Yet it appears case numbers are still on a sharp decline.
		
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Hospitalisations are not 1/3 what they were on 1 Jan. Daily admissions still too high. 1395 yesterday. Less than 1000 for a few days on a row would be better. Case numbers have fallen as testing has fallen. Real case numbers now more disproportionately higher than in official stats than they were before. 

Also little consideration of non-fatal longer term effects of Covid. Those are going to bite us in the ass in the medium term.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Hospitalisations are not 1/3 what they were on 1 Jan. Daily admissions still too high. 1395 yesterday. Less than 1000 for a few days on a row would be better. Case numbers have fallen as testing has fallen. Real case numbers now more disproportionately higher than in official stats than they were before.

Also little consideration of non-fatal longer term effects of Covid. Those are going to bite us in the ass in the medium term.
		
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When will we know the longer term effects? 10, 20, 30 years from now? Would it be safer to keep restrictions until after that, when we know what they are?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Not disputing your points but would highlight something that I feel we all need a better understanding. People almost always say Covid this and Covid that… which Covid? The current version is highly transmissible but not as deadly to the majority. Previous versions were not quite as transmissible but more deadly.

Whatever decision is reached should be based on how dangerous the variant, not it’s Covid. I feel there’s too many people basing their belief on it’s Covid, not it’s this variant or that variant.
		
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Yeah, I believe Spanish Flu still exists, but it isn't doing the same damage it did a century ago


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## DanFST (Feb 13, 2022)

Socket are you retired? 

Somone smarter than me please explain, I’ve already had covid, multiple times. The long term damage is already in place right? Or does it increase with every infection?


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			When will we know the longer term effects? 10, 20, 30 years from now? Would it be safer to keep restrictions until after that, when we know what they are?
		
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Sigh. No, the point is to reduce cases now to save problems later. Not wait 30 years. Back to the 'not now' = 'forever' theme, it seems.


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## Ethan (Feb 13, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Socket are you retired?

Somone smarter than me please explain, I’ve already had covid, multiple times. The long term damage is already in place right? Or does it increase with every infection?
		
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Hopefully no damage has been done. A number of studies have been done where people who had recovered have had scans of their heart, brain, liver, kidney, you know, the important bits, and damage has been observed that was never symptomatic, but was typical of the inflammatory effects of Covid. There have also been reports of a higher incidence of Type 1 Diabetes (the immunological one) in kids leading to a higher than expected prevalence. This is though to be inflammatory damage of Covid on the pancreas. 

This is one, although there are others, reason why the 'Its just a cold' brigade is wrong. 

My advice - try not to get Covid, even mild cuddly omicron. Try not to give it to others too.


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



*Without wanting to keep going around in circles here* you keep ignoring a few points.

No one is suggesting we continue with Covid precautions 'for ever' that's been clarified over again.  From my perspective now is a bit too soon, that's all.

It has been explained in detail a number of times that Covid isn't the same as Flu, it has the potential to be very much more damaging to people's long term health.

I accept there needs to be some balance and agree we don't want to have these precautions longer than necessary.
		
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🤣🤣🤣

How many posts you got in this thread about this? 1,000+? 2,000?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Socket are you retired?

Somone smarter than me please explain, I’ve already had covid, multiple times. The long term damage is already in place right? Or does it increase with every infection?
		
Click to expand...

In reply to the question you asked me. Im not sure what being retired has to do with this debate.  It's a little insulting to suggest that I cannot form a detached view of a subject or I am so far into my senility that I'm blind to how younger people may be affected by Covid.

So bearing in mind these considerations and with due respect, it's nothing to do with you.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			🤣🤣🤣

How many posts you got in this thread about this? 1,000+? 2,000?
		
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It's a debate on a Forum.  You may be surprised by this but people contributing is the way it works. 🙄


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It's a debate on a Forum.  You may be surprised by this but people contributing is the way it works. 🙄
		
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You’re absolutely right, and I do look forward to 2025 when we’ll still be able to read your posts about keeping some restrictions in place. Just as a precaution, of course.


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## D-S (Feb 13, 2022)

Good to see patients admitted to hospital drop below a thousand in today’s numbers.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			You’re absolutely right, and I do look forward to 2025 when we’ll still be able to read your posts about keeping some restrictions in place. Just as a precaution, of course.
		
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Twaddle 🙄


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			Good to see patients admitted to hospital drop below a thousand in today’s numbers.
		
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Not checked, but that could well be because it's the weekend - where stats can (and have) been a bit 'unreliable'. Monday stats have often been distorted as they 'catch up'. Tuesday to Friday stats are more reliable.


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle 🙄
		
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Tut tut!
How can a comment (not even an opinion - the sarcasm doesn't count) containing no facts at all, be so described! 
Great word though isn't it!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Tut tut!
How can a comment (not even an opinion - the sarcasm doesn't count) containing no facts at all, be so described! 
Great word though isn't it!

Click to expand...

Yes, it's not bad even for you 😉

It's 'twaddle' due to its forecast not having any substance to support it other than sarcasm.


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## D-S (Feb 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not checked, but that could well be because it's the weekend - where stats can (and have) been a bit 'unreliable'. Monday stats have often been distorted as they 'catch up'. Tuesday to Friday stats are more reliable.
		
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Well as you haven’t checked today’s reported number for England is Friday’s number 11-2-22, not a weekend. The previous Friday was 1186, this Friday it was 996.


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			Well as you haven’t checked today’s reported number for England is Friday’s number 11-2-22, not a weekend. The previous Friday was 1186, this Friday it was 996.
		
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Good news indeed then! Got a link? As I can't find one that gives those numbers.


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## D-S (Feb 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Good news indeed then! Got a link? As I can't find one that gives those numbers.
		
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The Government dashboard - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare , Patients admitted data by country.


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## Foxholer (Feb 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			The Government dashboard - https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare , Patients admitted data by country.
		
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Ah, That's definitely one of the 'reference' docs. I'd never split it by country.
Checking back on previous dates, there does seem to be 'suspicious' drops in the 'Friday/weekend values though (e.g. 22nd Jan, 5th Feb). NI data is not recorded (yet) on latest day either - implying some sort of delay too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 13, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492586180226990083
😂😂😂


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## Old Skier (Feb 13, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492586180226990083
😂😂😂
		
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Typical Blunt


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## D-S (Feb 13, 2022)

D-S said:



			Good to see patients admitted to hospital drop below a thousand in today’s numbers.
		
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To add to the positive direction of travel.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1492892667180732420


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2022)

My Mrs tells me that there is a move to stop publishing the data…or is it that they will stop publicising it.  We need to know the prevalence of infection in any specific area to be able to assess the risk of picking it up when out and about in town or any enclosed and busy environment.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 14, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs tells me that there is a move to stop publishing the data…or is it that they will stop publicising it.  We need to know the prevalence of infection in any specific area to be able to assess the risk of picking it up when out and about in town or any enclosed and busy environment.
		
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If people no longer have to isolate then will people bother to test? Some will, many wont. At that point the figures become close to useless anyway.


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## road2ruin (Feb 14, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If people no longer have to isolate then will people bother to test? Some will, many wont. At that point the figures become close to useless anyway.
		
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I agree, I can't see us testing any more unless one of us gets a symptom. If one of us does test positive then the others will test just in case however if we're well we won't be doing any testing to catch asymptomatic virus.


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## drdel (Feb 14, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs tells me that there is a move to stop publishing the data…or is it that they will stop publicising it.  We need to know the prevalence of infection in any specific area to be able to assess the risk of picking it up when out and about in town or any enclosed and busy environment.
		
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It's time to move on as a society.  Obviously the virus is still common and may mutate but its time for everyone to be prudent and use good hygiene and avoid overcrowded indoor places.

For anyone who wants to agonise over the data it will still be just a couple of clicks away on gov.uk.

Perhaps this thread has now peaked as well


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## Hobbit (Feb 14, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs tells me that there is a move to stop publishing the data…or is it that they will stop publicising it.  We need to know the prevalence of infection in any specific area to be able to assess the risk of picking it up when out and about in town or any enclosed and busy environment.
		
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Don’t worry, your French barber will have all the details…


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2022)

drdel said:



			It's time to move on as a society.  Obviously the virus is still common and may mutate but its time for everyone to be prudent and use good hygiene and avoid overcrowded indoor places.

For anyone who wants to agonise over the data it will still be just a couple of clicks away on gov.uk.

Perhaps this thread has now peaked as well

Click to expand...

Could you explain clearly what you mean by 'Move on as a society'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Could you explain clearly what you mean by 'Move on as a society'
		
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…and can one of these ‘move on’ know-it-alls tell me and my Mrs how we can assess the risk of us picking up the virus when in an enclosed space and risk passing it on to one who is highly vulnerable.  If I know the prevalence of infection in a locality then I can at least make some form of an informed risk assessment - otherwise…what…?  How the heck to I ‘avoid overcrowded indoor places’…when we are ‘moving on…’.

Me and my Mrs have been invited to a wedding reception on Friday and my Mrs is not at all sure that we should go given the risk of her picking up the virus…and then a few days later passing it on to her brother…that’s the reality of where we are and its only going to get harder given the strategy now being adopted.

Unfortunately much of what I am hearing and reading comes across as nothing to do with society and everything to do with self.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 14, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Don’t worry, your French barber will have all the details…

Click to expand...

French barber long gone…and he was right.


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## Imurg (Feb 14, 2022)

Northern Ireland lifting all legal restrictions and replacing with guidance as of tomorrow


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 14, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and can one of these ‘move on’ know-it-alls tell me and my Mrs how we can assess the risk of us picking up the virus when in an enclosed space and risk passing it on to one who is highly vulnerable.  If I know the prevalence of infection in a locality then I can at least make some form of an informed risk assessment - otherwise…what…?  How the heck to I ‘avoid overcrowded indoor places’…when we are ‘moving on…’.

Me and my Mrs have been invited to a wedding reception on Friday and my Mrs is not at all sure that we should go given the risk of her picking up the virus…and then a few days later passing it on to her brother…that’s the reality of where we are and its only going to get harder given the strategy now being adopted.

Unfortunately much of what I am hearing and reading comes across as nothing to do with society and everything to do with self.
		
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What did you do before Covid? Flu and other infectious diseases still abounded which if transferred would be dangerous to a vulnerable person. The bottom line is life will move on whether you want it to or not and there is a time coming soon when all restrictions will be lifted. As an adult you'll simply have to use your own judgement. No-one can make the decision for you. If you think the risk is too high, don't attend the wedding or other events. If not go and accept there is a chance of consequences


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What did you do before Covid? Flu and other infectious diseases still abounded which if transferred would be dangerous to a vulnerable person. The bottom line is life will move on whether you want it to or not and there is a time coming soon when all restrictions will be lifted. As an adult you'll simply have to use your own judgement. No-one can make the decision for you. If you think the risk is too high, don't attend the wedding or other events. If not go and accept there is a chance of consequences
		
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It’s irrelevant what people did pre-covid! Covid has changed the landscape.

I agree silh and his wife should do what is right for them, but what if there is a selfish person who knowingly attends while having covid, how can silh or anyone else protect themselves from that individual.

You can’t expect those at risk or vulnerable to carry all the responsibility indefinitely, ie it should stay mandated that if you are positive you should isolate for a period, regardless of No of jabs/boosters etc.

I’d of thought you would of been aware of covid causing serious issues and worse for those who aren’t deemed as vulnerable.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s irrelevant what people did pre-covid! Covid has changed the landscape.

I agree silh and his wife should do what is right for them, but what if there is a selfish person who knowingly attends while having covid, how can silh or anyone else protect themselves from that individual.

You can’t expect those at risk or vulnerable to carry all the responsibility indefinitely, ie it should stay mandated that if you are positive you should isolate for a period, regardless of No of jabs/boosters etc.

I’d of thought you would of been aware of covid causing serious issues and worse for those who aren’t deemed as vulnerable.
		
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But surely you can take the argument of selfish behaviour to any circumstance. What about in a supermarket, pharmacy or doctors waiting room. With restrictions going and those with Covid not requiring any isolation (as I understand the rule will be) how will anyone know who is or isn't infectious. Aside from mitigating the risk with masks and vaccination what else is there to be done other than staying in.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But surely you can take the argument of selfish behaviour to any circumstance. What about in a supermarket, pharmacy or doctors waiting room. With restrictions going and those with Covid not requiring any isolation (as I understand the rule will be) how will anyone know who is or isn't infectious. Aside from mitigating the risk with masks and vaccination what else is there to be done other than staying in.
		
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I fully agree with us returning to some sort, if not full normality, but if the plan is to allow those testing positive to go about their daily business with no restrictions, then it puts everybody at risk, not just the vulnerable.

People not knowing they are positive is a different matter, but, imo, I’d like to see some sort of mandated isolation for anyone testing positive.

I’m not confident the proposed lifting of all restrictions is being led by the science.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I *fully agree with us returning to some sort, if not full normality, but if the plan is to allow those testing positive to go about their daily business with no restrictions, then it puts everybody at risk, not just the vulnerable.*

People not knowing they are positive is a different matter, but, imo, I’d like to see some sort of mandated isolation for anyone testing positive.

I’m not confident the proposed lifting of all restrictions is being led by the science.
		
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This all day long, if you are positive isolate, even if just for 5 days. What is the positives of letting people who are positive walk the streets as per normal. My parents have done everything and more to not catch COVID for two years. Now we are saying let positive people go out and knowingly infect Others. I don’t get it.


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## Billysboots (Feb 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s irrelevant what people did pre-covid! Covid has changed the landscape.

I agree silh and his wife should do what is right for them, *but what if there is a selfish person who knowingly attends while having covid*, how can silh or anyone else protect themselves from that individual.

You can’t expect those at risk or vulnerable to carry all the responsibility indefinitely, ie it should stay mandated that if you are positive you should isolate for a period, regardless of No of jabs/boosters etc.

I’d of thought you would of been aware of covid causing serious issues and worse for those who aren’t deemed as vulnerable.
		
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I had intended to bow out, but really, come on.

If someone is prepared to knowingly attend a function with Covid, they’re hardly the sort to self isolate whilst they are still obliged to, are they? And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero? Because all it takes is one infected person to pass Covid to a vulnerable individual.

So far today I’ve read that those who advocate the total relaxation of restrictions are “know it alls”, and that they are guided purely by self interest. Ironic, given that the protagonist on this occasion seems more obsessed with what is best for him, and has done throughout this thread, than anybody else here.

Having seen that Northern Ireland are stopping mandated restrictions, are we to assume that they are also governed by self-obsessed know it alls? Or maybe, perish the thought, they are making a balanced, reasoned judgement after consultation with the experts who have been guiding their decisions for the last two years.

There are over 65 million people in the U.K. A good proportion of those have been thumbing their noses at Covid guidance since March 2020, and you will never change them. If you are waiting for the day when everyone respects the safety and welfare of everyone else before returning to “normal”, well, good luck with that. My money is on Hell freezing over first.

There are still, thankfully, a considerable number of people who advocate a total easing of restrictions, myself included, who remain respectful enough of others to ensure that we wear face coverings where appropriate, and allow people space. Just because I support the easing of restrictions does not mean I am suddenly going to start coughing and sneezing over others, shaking hands of those who don’t want to, and so on.

Really, there are contributors here who seem to think people like me are the Devil incarnate, and who have lost any sense of perspective. Covid is here to stay, in some guise or other, and we have to adapt to live with it. Because, like it or not, live with it is what we are going to have to do sooner or later.

EDIT: And that really is me done on this subject, you’ll be pleased to hear 😇


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What did you do before Covid? Flu and other infectious diseases still abounded which if transferred would be dangerous to a vulnerable person. The bottom line is life will move on whether you want it to or not and there is a time coming soon when all restrictions will be lifted. As an adult you'll simply have to use your own judgement. No-one can make the decision for you. If you think the risk is too high, don't attend the wedding or other events. If not go and accept there is a chance of consequences
		
Click to expand...

With respect, you have told us how Covid has affected your mental health and put you in a bad place due to the pressures placed on your workplace.  I can't remember you posting these views previously over influenza, if Flu has been abounding previously why has the NHS not been affected in the same way indefinitely.   I'm 73 and I don't believe I have ever had Flu, I don't believe I've had Covid either but I know which one I would be most at risk of catching if I started visiting crowded places or be less careful with hygiene and close contact.  Covid isn't the same as Flu, both may be dangerous for vulnerable people but my understanding is that Covid has the ability to create more long term medical issues for not only the vulnerable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I had intended to bow out, but really, come on.

If someone is prepared to knowingly attend a function with Covid, they’re hardly the sort to self isolate whilst they are still obliged to, are they? And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero? Because all it takes is one infected person to pass Covid to a vulnerable individual.

So far today I’ve read that those who advocate the total relaxation of restrictions are “know it alls”, and that they are guided purely by self interest. Ironic, given that the protagonist on this occasion seems more obsessed with what is best for him, and has done throughout this thread, than anybody else here.

Having seen that Northern Ireland are stopping mandated restrictions, are we to assume that they are also governed by self-obsessed know it alls? Or maybe, perish the thought, they are making a balanced, reasoned judgement after consultation with the experts who have been guiding their decisions for the last two years.

There are over 65 million people in the U.K. A good proportion of those have been thumbing their noses at Covid guidance since March 2020, and you will never change them. If you are waiting for the day when everyone respects the safety and welfare of everyone else before returning to “normal”, well, good luck with that. My money is on Hell freezing over first.

There are still, thankfully, a considerable number of people who advocate a total easing of restrictions, myself included, who remain respectful enough of others to ensure that we wear face coverings where appropriate, and allow people space. Just because I support the easing of restrictions does not mean I am suddenly going to start coughing and sneezing over others, shaking hands of those who don’t want to, and so on.

Really, there are contributors here who seem to think people like me are the Devil incarnate, and who have lost any sense of perspective. Covid is here to stay, in some guise or other, and we have to adapt to live with it. Because, like it or not, live with it is what we are going to have to do sooner or later.

EDIT: And that really is me done on this subject, you’ll be pleased to hear 😇
		
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Wow! Talk about over react, you’ll be pleased to know I won’t be making the decision for the Country! Other opinions are allowed.

We can spend all night inventing scenarios about what type of person the “infected” one might, it might be exactly as you say or it could be a decent bloke, brow beaten by his wife because her best friends wedding etc.

Maybe we only have to wait until the science proves it, but hey, whatever the decision is I just hope nobody on here loses a member of their family, who isn’t vulnerable, because it’s a political decision.


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## Hobbit (Feb 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I fully agree with us returning to some sort, if not full normality, but if the plan is to allow those testing positive to go about their daily business with no restrictions, then it puts everybody at risk, not just the vulnerable.

People not knowing they are positive is a different matter, but, imo, I’d like to see some sort of mandated isolation for anyone testing positive.

I’m not confident the proposed lifting of all restrictions is being led by the science.
		
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Here, test positive and it’s mandated that you self-isolate - note, mandated by law. Police visit every day. Only heard of two ignoring self-isolation = huge fine.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I had intended to bow out, but really, come on.

If someone is prepared to knowingly attend a function with Covid, they’re hardly the sort to self isolate whilst they are still obliged to, are they? And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero? Because all it takes is one infected person to pass Covid to a vulnerable individual.

So far today I’ve read that those who advocate the total relaxation of restrictions are “know it alls”, and that they are guided purely by self interest. Ironic, given that the protagonist on this occasion seems more obsessed with what is best for him, and has done throughout this thread, than anybody else here.

Having seen that Northern Ireland are stopping mandated restrictions, are we to assume that they are also governed by self-obsessed know it alls? Or maybe, perish the thought, they are making a balanced, reasoned judgement after consultation with the experts who have been guiding their decisions for the last two years.

There are over 65 million people in the U.K. A good proportion of those have been thumbing their noses at Covid guidance since March 2020, and you will never change them. If you are waiting for the day when everyone respects the safety and welfare of everyone else before returning to “normal”, well, good luck with that. My money is on Hell freezing over first.

There are still, thankfully, a considerable number of people who advocate a total easing of restrictions, myself included, who remain respectful enough of others to ensure that we wear face coverings where appropriate, and allow people space. Just because I support the easing of restrictions does not mean I am suddenly going to start coughing and sneezing over others, shaking hands of those who don’t want to, and so on.

Really, there are contributors here who seem to think people like me are the Devil incarnate, and who have lost any sense of perspective. Covid is here to stay, in some guise or other, and we have to adapt to live with it. Because, like it or not, live with it is what we are going to have to do sooner or later.

EDIT: And that really is me done on this subject, you’ll be pleased to hear 😇
		
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So much of that is exaggeration and just not what is being said by those you suggest want restrictions until there is zero Covid.   I won't reply in detail as you have decided you are done on the subject 👍


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## Foxholer (Feb 14, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			…and can one of these ‘move on’ know-it-alls tell me and my Mrs how we can assess the risk of us picking up the virus when in an enclosed space and risk passing it on to one who is highly vulnerable.  If I know the prevalence of infection in a locality then I can at least make some form of an informed risk assessment - otherwise…what…?  How the heck to I ‘avoid overcrowded indoor places’…when we are ‘moving on…’.

Me and my Mrs have been invited to a wedding reception on Friday and my Mrs is not at all sure that we should go given the risk of her picking up the virus…and then a few days later passing it on to her brother…that’s the reality of where we are and its only going to get harder given the strategy now being adopted.

Unfortunately much of what I am hearing and reading comes across as nothing to do with society and everything to do with self.
		
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Why not apply the same reasoning that would have applied, as rules, a couple of weeks ago - before the 'back to normal' approach was announced. Far better to be conservative when there are risks of acquiring and passing Covid to particularly vulnerable folk imo.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 14, 2022)

To clarify, the expert opinion in here is that we should generally continue with restrictions, and provide enough information so individuals can conduct their own risk assessments before going to specific locations?

If that is what we have decided, we should forward this thread onto the decision makers. They'll save a lot of money not having to employ their teams of medical experts, which could be put to good use elsewhere.

I do enjoy Golf Monthly forums. I feel like together we can solve the difficulties of a pandemic, decide where the root problems are for Man Utd, clarify the status of a provisional ball and share our latest success in Wordle all in one evening. That is progress


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## Ethan (Feb 14, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			To clarify, the expert opinion in here is that we should generally continue with restrictions, and provide enough information so individuals can conduct their own risk assessments before going to specific locations?

If that is what we have decided, we should forward this thread onto the decision makers. They'll save a lot of money not having to employ their teams of medical experts, which could be put to good use elsewhere.

I do enjoy Golf Monthly forums. I feel like together we can solve the difficulties of a pandemic, decide where the root problems are for Man Utd, clarify the status of a provisional ball and share our latest success in Wordle all in one evening. That is progress 

Click to expand...

The decision makers are not listening to their own medical experts. The current policy is dictated by partisan interests. 

As for living with it, it’s just a cold,  the cold doesn’t do this. And that is just cardiovascular. Effects in other organs too.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 14, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My Mrs tells me that there is a move to stop publishing the data…or is it that they will stop publicising it.  We need to know the prevalence of infection in any specific area to be able to assess the risk of picking it up when out and about in town or any enclosed and busy environment.
		
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Just don’t go out……simples!


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## Billysboots (Feb 14, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So much of that is exaggeration and just not what is being said by those you suggest want restrictions until there is zero Covid.   I won't reply in detail as you have decided you are done on the subject 👍
		
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Where did I suggest people wanted restrictions until there is zero Covid? Where? Nowhere, that’s where.

Don’t bother replying in detail if you can’t get the basics right. You’ll be wasting your time, mine, and everyone else’s.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Where did I suggest people wanted restrictions until there is zero Covid? Where? Nowhere, that’s where.

Don’t bother replying in detail if you can’t get the basics right. You’ll be wasting your time, mine, and everyone else’s.
		
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Try reading your post!
You said:

*"And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero"*

Maybe you could explain how your denial has the basics right?


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## SaintHacker (Feb 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I had intended to bow out, but really, come on.

If someone is prepared to knowingly attend a function with Covid, they’re hardly the sort to self isolate whilst they are still obliged to, are they? And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero? Because all it takes is one infected person to pass Covid to a vulnerable individual.

So far today I’ve read that those who advocate the total relaxation of restrictions are “know it alls”, and that they are guided purely by self interest. Ironic, given that the protagonist on this occasion seems more obsessed with what is best for him, and has done throughout this thread, than anybody else here.

Having seen that Northern Ireland are stopping mandated restrictions, are we to assume that they are also governed by self-obsessed know it alls? Or maybe, perish the thought, they are making a balanced, reasoned judgement after consultation with the experts who have been guiding their decisions for the last two years.

There are over 65 million people in the U.K. A good proportion of those have been thumbing their noses at Covid guidance since March 2020, and you will never change them. If you are waiting for the day when everyone respects the safety and welfare of everyone else before returning to “normal”, well, good luck with that. My money is on Hell freezing over first.

There are still, thankfully, a considerable number of people who advocate a total easing of restrictions, myself included, who remain respectful enough of others to ensure that we wear face coverings where appropriate, and allow people space. Just because I support the easing of restrictions does not mean I am suddenly going to start coughing and sneezing over others, shaking hands of those who don’t want to, and so on.

Really, there are contributors here who seem to think people like me are the Devil incarnate, and who have lost any sense of perspective. Covid is here to stay, in some guise or other, and we have to adapt to live with it. Because, like it or not, live with it is what we are going to have to do sooner or later.

EDIT: And that really is me done on this subject, you’ll be pleased to hear 😇
		
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Possibly the top post of the whole thread 👏👏


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Where did I suggest people wanted restrictions until there is zero Covid? Where? Nowhere, that’s where.

Don’t bother replying in detail if you can’t get the basics right. You’ll be wasting your time, mine, and everyone else’s.
		
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You've got the breaking strain of a kit kat

Isn't it a bit of a double standard to tell SR not to reply when you when off on a rant in reply to my post about things I'd never said or suggested?

I agree we are close to returning to normal and I'd like that announcement on the back of medical advice, the one small, imo, concession I'd like to see is people who are positive isolating for a further few months afterwards incase of another mutation and it gets out of control before we are all get put back in to restrictions.

As you quoted we have 65 million people in the Country, is it really too much to ask those tiny amount testing positive to stay isolated for the benefit of the majority to carry on as normal?

Not sure you'll answer this as are unsure if you're out or out out.


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## Billysboots (Feb 14, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Try reading your post!
You said:

*"And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero"*

Maybe you could explain how your denial has the basics right?
		
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Now you’re just making me angry. Go back to that post, read it again, and take note of the question mark after the word “zero”. I was asking a question, not making a statement.

Nice try.


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## Billysboots (Feb 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			You've got the breaking strain of a kit kat

Isn't it a bit of a double standard to tell SR not to reply when you when off on a rant in reply to my post about things I'd never said or suggested?

I agree we are close to returning to normal and I'd like that announcement on the back of medical advice, the one small, imo, concession I'd like to see is people who are positive isolating for a further few months afterwards incase of another mutation and it gets out of control before we are all get put back in to restrictions.

As you quoted we have 65 million people in the Country, is it really too much to ask those tiny amount testing positive to stay isolated for the benefit of the majority to carry on as normal?

Not sure you'll answer this as are unsure if you're out or out out.
		
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I’ll remain “out” unless others deliberately misquote me to try and prove a point.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 14, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’ll remain “out” unless others deliberately misquote me to try and prove a point.
		
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I'm quite positive I've never misquoted you, but certainly reserve the right to reply to you after the way you replied to me!


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## Billysboots (Feb 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I'm quite positive I've never misquoted you, but certainly reserve the right to reply to you after the way you replied to me!
		
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Didn’t say you did 😉


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## theoneandonly (Feb 14, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Try reading your post!
You said:

*"And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero"*

Maybe you could explain how your denial has the basics right?
		
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I really don't give a shit about this thread and how it's become somewhere you can argue now that the Brexit and tory threads are closed, but ffs even I can see you've deliberately lopped off the question mark from his quote.
At least be honest.


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Try reading your post!
You said:

*"And yet you want self isolation to continue? For how long? Until case rates are zero"*

Maybe you could explain how your denial has the basics right?
		
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You’re either being clumsy or rather naughty, leaving the question mark off “zero.” Not your best moment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Here, test positive and it’s mandated that you self-isolate - note, mandated by law. Police visit every day. Only heard of two ignoring self-isolation = huge fine.
		
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What are the Spanish Government saying about future restrictions Bri?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Just don’t go out……simples!
		
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It's really that simple is it?...that as we are providing care and support to a highly vulnerable individual (and also to a 2nd who is vulnerable due to age being in 90s) then we too should just stay at home (with them) because others can't be a**ed wearing a mask and for a short while continuing doing other simple viral spread containment measures such as self-isolating?

Yeh of course - it's simples...Not heard much of late from the chief medical and scientific folks on any of this and how it's all now OK to go with uncontrolled infection spread.


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			What are the Spanish Government saying about future restrictions Bri?
		
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Covid passports for entry into bars/restaurants ends today. Beyond today, all options are on the table should there be any resurgence. All of the autonomous regions, e.g. Andalucia, has an almost instant authority to reimpose any restriction they deem necessary.

Devolved powers in Spain, even down local councils(juntas) and sports federations, mean that extra precautions can be imposed when they want. The bowling federation dictates that everyone’s temperature must be taken to gain entry to club property, including outside bowling greens. There’s even rules still in place ref playing capacity, how many on the green and how you pass each other when you change ends.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Covid passports for entry into bars/restaurants ends today. Beyond today, all options are on the table should there be any resurgence. All of the autonomous regions, e.g. Andalucia, has an almost instant authority to reimpose any restriction they deem necessary.

Devolved powers in Spain, even down local councils(juntas) and sports federations, mean that extra precautions can be imposed when they want. The bowling federation dictates that everyone’s temperature must be taken to gain entry to club property, including outside bowling greens. There’s even rules still in place ref playing capacity, how many on the green and how you pass each other when you change ends.
		
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What if someone tests positive?


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's really that simple is it?...that as we are providing care and support to a highly vulnerable individual (and also to a 2nd who is vulnerable due to age being in 90s) then we too should just stay at home (with them) because others can't be a**ed wearing a mask and for a short while continuing doing other simple viral spread containment measures?

Yeh of course - it's simples...Not heard much of late from the chief medical and scientific folks on any of this and how it's all now OK.
		
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Their choice not to wear a mask, and your choice not to go out. It is that simple. You can’t force someone to wear one, under the current rules. Not saying it’s right, but that’s what it is.


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			What if someone tests positive?
		
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Mandatory self-isolation, but only the person with Covid. If everyone else is fully jabbed, inc booster, they are allowed out but must wear a mask at all times whilst out.


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## IanM (Feb 15, 2022)

Just sorting out a trip in September to the Algarve to visit our friends who live next to Palmares.  Haven't been to see them since October 2019.

Hope nothing gets in the way!


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## road2ruin (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's really that simple is it?...that as we are providing care and support to a highly vulnerable individual (and also to a 2nd who is vulnerable due to age being in 90s) then we too should just stay at home (with them) because others can't be a**ed wearing a mask and for a short while continuing doing other simple viral spread containment measures such as self-isolating?

Yeh of course - it's simples...Not heard much of late from the chief medical and scientific folks on any of this and how it's all now OK to go with uncontrolled infection spread.
		
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Without sounding flippant as I do appreciate your situation but do you not have confidence in the vaccine? Given that the present variant is ‘milder’ for most and your family would be triple jabbed aren’t they at a point where they have to decide to get out? It’s highly likely that they’ll contract Covid at some point and, so far, the vaccine has proved highly effective at preventing serious illness and hospitalisation amongst the vulnerable. 

With regards the lifting of restrictions, even if you got your way and they were kept for the next 6 months there will still become a point where they will be lifted and, probably come winter, they will be faced with exactly the same challenges. I know it’s not an easy situation however you’re not going to be able to enforce mandatory isolation especially given that so many simply couldn’t afford to do so. 

Rumours are that free tests are to end from next week so that really makes the publishing of Covid figures redundant.


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## bobmac (Feb 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Rumours are that free tests are to end from next week so that really makes the publishing of Covid figures redundant.
		
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Have you got a link for that please?


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not heard much of late from the chief medical and scientific folks on any of this and how it's all now OK to go with uncontrolled infection spread.
		
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I guarantee you Chris Whitty is not on board with the speed of this change.


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## road2ruin (Feb 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Have you got a link for that please?
		
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No link, was reported on the radio this morning.


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## road2ruin (Feb 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Have you got a link for that please?
		
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Although does seem to be in a lot of papers....

COVID-19: Provision of free lateral flow tests under review as reports say they are due to end | UK News | Sky News 

UK Treasury pushes to end most free Covid testing despite experts’ warnings | Coronavirus | The Guardian 

Newspaper headlines: 'End of free lateral flow tests' and 'stop mass jabs' - BBC News


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## drdel (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's really that simple is it?...that as we are providing care and support to a highly vulnerable individual (and also to a 2nd who is vulnerable due to age being in 90s) then we too should just stay at home (with them) because others can't be a**ed wearing a mask and for a short while continuing doing other simple viral spread containment measures such as self-isolating?

Yeh of course - it's simples...Not heard much of late from the chief medical and scientific folks on any of this and how it's all now OK to go with uncontrolled infection spread.
		
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The simple fact is that 'policy' decisions are made to fit the majority and so individuals may or may not be disadvantaged.

The majority will be OK as they will not be in very close proximity to an infected person for more than a fleeting moment as so the viral load is also very low should transmission occur.

Working people and companies need to function in a stable environment- as far as that is possible. Loads of people who may be vulnerable for one reason or another manage their own lives by making decisions that fit their circumstances and risks. 

At some stage we need to stop relying on the state and behave responsibly.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I guarantee you Chris Whitty is not on board with the speed of this change.
		
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Do you have a link, or did he tell you directly?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2022)

What really doesn’t help in this thread is people exagerrating or trying to belittle others with little games of one upmanship.

99.9% of posters are intelligent enough to realise we will, hopefully, sooner or later return to normal and people simply getting on with their lives.

However, a little bit more tolerance wouldn’t go a miss for those who, for whatever reason, wish for it to go a bit slower. They obviously have their reasons which we may not agree with.

If you don’t like their post, ignore it, but answering the way some are makes your opinion no better than theirs.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Now you’re just making me angry. Go back to that post, read it again, and take note of the question mark after the word “zero”. I was asking a question, not making a statement.

Nice try.
		
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What difference does a question mark make to your quote, you were suggesting I would like self isolation to continue untill case rates are zero and you know it, you're using semantics to deny what your intended meaning was.

Oh! And calm down, its only a discussion on a Golf forum.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			What difference does a question mark make to your quote, *you were suggesting I would like self isolation to continue untill case rates are zero* and you know it, you're using semantics to deny what your intended meaning was.

Oh! And calm down, its only a discussion on s Golf forum.
		
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Actually he wasn’t, he was replying to me.

As much as it’s a forum, you jumped in.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			You’re either being clumsy or rather naughty, leaving the question mark off “zero.” Not your best moment.
		
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It doesn't change the fact that he was inferring I wanted restrictions to continue untill there was zero Covid.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Actually he wasn’t, he was replying to me.

As much as it’s a forum, you jumped in.

Click to expand...

I believed he was referring to those that are concerned about restrictions being lifted.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I believed he was referring to those that are concerned about restrictions being lifted.
		
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That’s your issue, it was a direct reply to me with highlighted text, so you could of easily ignored it or asked him if it was aimed at you rather than misquoting what he’d posted.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It doesn't change the fact that he was inferring I wanted restrictions to continue untill there was zero Covid.
		
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This is maybe how you took it. I didn't take it that way when I read the post. He didn't say "anybody who doesn't want restrictions lifted will clearly not be happy until rates are zero". It was quite clearly a question, that basically set the extreme scenario, and then offer you and others (well, Paul and others) the chance to say where your threshold is above that. And, it is a sensible question in such a debate. Because, a person may say restrictions should not be lifted next month, but June would be fine as the weather is a bit better. But, not everyone will think that, and so arguments like this will continue.


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## Springveldt (Feb 15, 2022)

drdel said:



			The simple fact is that 'policy' decisions are made to fit the majority and so individuals may or may not be disadvantaged.

The majority will be OK as they will not be in very close proximity to an infected person for more than a fleeting moment as so the viral load is also very low should transmission occur.

Working people and companies need to function in a stable environment- as far as that is possible. Loads of people who may be vulnerable for one reason or another manage their own lives by making decisions that fit their circumstances and risks.

At some stage we need to stop relying on the state and behave responsibly.
		
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Seems like "policy" decisions are being made at the moment to fit a single person who is desperately trying to keep his job.

I wonder what the scientists make of his decisions lately.

I know we need to get on with our lives but this is all feeling a little bit rushed to me.


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## Billysboots (Feb 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			What difference does a question mark make to your quote, you were suggesting I would like self isolation to continue untill case rates are zero and you know it, you're using semantics to deny what your intended meaning was.

Oh! And calm down, its only a discussion on a Golf forum.
		
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Behave, man. Do you not understand basic English? Either have the decency to accept you made a mistake, or say nothing at all. I wasn’t _suggesting _anything - I was asking a question.

What difference does a question mark make? It means I’m asking a question rather than making a statement. Primary school stuff.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Seems like "policy" decisions are being made at the moment to fit a single person who is desperately trying to keep his job.

I wonder what the scientists make of his decisions lately.

I know we need to get on with our lives but this is all feeling a little bit rushed to me.
		
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However, surely if it is the WRONG decision, and things go badly once that decision is implemented, it is not going to help the person making that decision? It doesn't seem a very good way of proving you are good at your job. Also, is this a decision that is truly made by one person? One person may be the one to announce any decision, and be the figurehead for such decisions, but is it not ultimately a group decision?


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## Springveldt (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			However, surely if it is the WRONG decision, and things go badly once that decision is implemented, it is not going to help the person making that decision? It doesn't seem a very good way of proving you are good at your job. Also, is this a decision that is truly made by one person? One person may be the one to announce any decision, and be the figurehead for such decisions, but is it not ultimately a group decision?
		
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Yes, but the person making the announcement is also the person trying to appease his supporters. As long as he has their support it doesn't really matter if the decision is right or wrong.

As I said, I wonder what the likes of Chris Witty really think.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2022)

@SR has already mentioned that the measure of a civilised society is how well it cares for its poorest and most vulnerable.  Strikes me that much of UK society thinks that the poor and vulnerable are going to have to sort themselves out, that ‘their‘ issues are “nothing to do with me and I want to get on with my life”.  That may not be what is meant when many comment, but that is what it sounds like.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Without sounding flippant as I do appreciate your situation but do you not have confidence in the vaccine? Given that the present variant is ‘milder’ for most and your family would be triple jabbed aren’t they at a point where they have to decide to get out? It’s highly likely that they’ll contract Covid at some point and, so far, the vaccine has proved highly effective at preventing serious illness and hospitalisation amongst the vulnerable.

With regards the lifting of restrictions, even if you got your way and they were kept for the next 6 months there will still become a point where they will be lifted and, probably come winter, they will be faced with exactly the same challenges. I know it’s not an easy situation however you’re not going to be able to enforce mandatory isolation especially given that so many simply couldn’t afford to do so.

Rumours are that free tests are to end from next week so that really makes the publishing of Covid figures redundant.
		
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So don’t stop free testing.  Give an individual with symptoms the choice of paying for a test thinking they might then feel obliged to self-isolate, I fear that a lot of folks will simply not buy and take a test.  Instead they will just mix as they would normally do and if they have covid they will spread it to one degree or another.

I have confidence in the vaccine but I do not know how a very vulnerable individual infected by the virus might be affected, in the immediate term the impact might well be minimal, but given there are no longitudinal studies of any great significance we have pretty obvious concerns.


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## road2ruin (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			@SR has already mentioned that the measure of a civilised society is how well it cares for its poorest and most vulnerable.  Strikes me that much of UK society thinks that the poor and vulnerable are going to have to sort themselves out, that ‘their‘ issues are “nothing to do with me and I want to get on with my life”.  That may not be what is meant when many comment, but that is what it sounds like.
		
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I honestly don't think that is the case for the vast majority on here however it is a fact that at some point that will be exactly what has to happen and it will be up to the individuals to do their own thing and not be told or forced to do anything. Whether that's in the next 2 weeks or in the next 6 months that line will come.


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## road2ruin (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*So don’t stop free testing*.  Give an individual with symptoms the choice of paying for a test thinking they might then feel obliged to self-isolate, I fear that a lot of folks will simply not buy and take a test.  Instead they will just mix as they would normally do and if they have covid they will spread it to one degree or another.
		
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The figure I've seen quoted is £10bn being saved by stopping free testing and isolation payments. We cannot keep throwing money at this and if we're going to be losing all restrictions in Feb/Mar then there seems little point in keeping the tests free. No one is going to keep testing if they have to pay for it especially if they don't have symptoms.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 15, 2022)

Sat in specsavers with me dad. Just left hospital before that. Nigh on everyone is wearing masks. Yet the same folk go in other shops like I saw yesterday and hardly wear them.
It’s odd seeing the same folk wear glasses in some Shops but not others. It’s like they have a mask but are
Picking and choosing when they wear them.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			@SR has already mentioned that the measure of a civilised society is how well it cares for its poorest and most vulnerable.  Strikes me that much of UK society thinks that the poor and vulnerable are going to have to sort themselves out, that ‘their‘ issues are “nothing to do with me and I want to get on with my life”.  That may not be what is meant when many comment, but that is what it sounds like.
		
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I don't get this interpretation. Surely you don't really think that anybody that would like to see restrictions lifted does not care for the vulnerable?

I think we ALL agree that we should get back to normality at some point, even if Covid is still out there. It is simply a case that some think now is the right time, others do not. I don't know what your threshold is, but presumably at some point you will think there is a right time. And, based on probability, I'm sure you will come to that mindset before some others, I doubt you will be last man standing when it comes to people demanding restrictions. Therefore, when you come to that point, will you accept that people that have not got to that point when they tell you that you do not care about the vulnerable?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The figure I've seen quoted is £10bn being saved by stopping free testing and isolation payments. We cannot keep throwing money at this and if we're going to be losing all restrictions in Feb/Mar then there seems little point in keeping the tests free. No one is going to keep testing if they have to pay for it especially if they don't have symptoms.
		
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Which I get…but then it’s important that tests and testing remains free for those who are vulnerable plus those caring and supporting them.


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## D-S (Feb 15, 2022)

I wonder why the Northern Irish government need to create a diversion or appease their supporters as they also seem to have taken the decision to bring forward the lifting of many restrictions by over a month. I assume they are also doing this as a purely political move in the face of overwhelming medical opposition?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't get this interpretation. Surely you don't really think that anybody that would like to see restrictions lifted does not care for the vulnerable?

I think we ALL agree that we should get back to normality at some point, even if Covid is still out there. It is simply a case that some think now is the right time, others do not. I don't know what your threshold is, but presumably at some point you will think there is a right time. And, based on probability, I'm sure you will come to that mindset before some others, I doubt you will be last man standing when it comes to people demanding restrictions. Therefore, when you come to that point, will you accept that people that have not got to that point when they tell you that you do not care about the vulnerable?
		
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I can agree with most of that, but let’s be clear about the choices being made, and so let’s stop posting such as ‘we have to get on with life’ as that is a generalisation that is not the truth of the choice that the individual makes that says ‘I have to get on with my life’.  Because for many _that_ is the simple truth of it.


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2022)

D-S said:



			I wonder why the Northern Irish government need to create a diversion or appease their supporters as they also seem to have taken the decision to bring forward the lifting of many restrictions by over a month. I assume they are also doing this as a purely political move in the face of overwhelming medical opposition?
		
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Much the same reason as England. The ruling part in NI need to be seen to (a) keep up with England and (b) keep fighting the culture war ahead of May elections. A lot of them probably think God is a vaccine and antiviral in one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			@SR has already mentioned that the measure of a civilised society is how well it cares for its poorest and most vulnerable.  Strikes me that much of UK society thinks that the poor and vulnerable are going to have to sort themselves out, that ‘their‘ issues are “nothing to do with me and I want to get on with my life”.  That may not be what is meant when many comment, but that is what it sounds like.
		
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And you are just as guilty as tarring “them” with the same brush.

My wife and son are both disabled and very much in the vulnerable category, apart from hospital appts my wife has not left our home in the last 2 years, my son’s only trips out has been to walk the dog, our life has been on hold, I go running, play golf, but only with 1 other person and I’ve never been in the Clubhouse.

I, for the sake of my family, have put life virtually on hold for 2 years now, nobody wants life back to normal more than me, it’s not about society not caring, it’s about all of us doing our best to protect the NHS should anybody need it.

The wedding is a simple choice for you, go, knowing the risk, or, miss it as the risk is too great.

Life and in the interest of the whole of society we need to get moving again.


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## bobmac (Feb 15, 2022)

So some say we should get on with our lives and some are more cautious.
To save me reading back over the last 100 posts, has anything new come up?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So some say we should get on with our lives and some are more cautious.
To save me reading back over the last 100 posts, has anything new come up?
		
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Yes, is there any importance in having a "?", or does the use of a "?" not imply a question if the reader interprets the context differently.


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## bobmac (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, is there any importance in having a "?", or does the use of a "?" not imply a question if the reader interprets the context differently.
		
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Was that a question?  

Maybe this will help.......  .


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			... or does the use of a "?" not imply a question if the reader interprets the context differently.
		
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Yes! Or should that be 'No'?
Mind you, without a '?' at the end of the sentence, is it actually a question in the first place?
Why use 'does....not' when 'doesn't' achieves the the same without ambiguity?

And fwiw, the answer to your, presumed, question was.....Because it was a question!


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## Billysboots (Feb 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Yes! Or should that be 'No'?
Mind you, without a '?' at the end of the sentence, is it actually a question in the first place?
Why use 'does....not' when 'doesn't' achieves the the same without ambiguity?
		
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Please, don’t - you’ll confuse him.

😉


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## greenone (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			However, surely if it is the WRONG decision, and things go badly once that decision is implemented, it is not going to help the person making that decision? It doesn't seem a very good way of proving you are good at your job. Also, is this a decision that is truly made by one person? One person may be the one to announce any decision, and be the figurehead for such decisions, but is it not ultimately a group decision?
		
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He won't care if it helps in the run up to the council elections. If they do badly in them then he'll get the boot.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 15, 2022)

Can I respectfully suggest you are confusing “proper work” with “work of his choice”?  There was, as I understand it,  plenty of proper work available, but not apparently the preferred choice of work.


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## bobmac (Feb 15, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can I respectfully suggest you are confusing “proper work” with “work of his choice”?  There was, as I understand it,  plenty of proper work available, but not apparently the preferred choice of work.
		
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I'm not sure where I stand on this subject


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## GreiginFife (Feb 15, 2022)

A little decision tree to help...


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It doesn't change the fact that he was inferring I wanted restrictions to continue untill there was zero Covid.
		
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That’s how you read it. I didn’t read it like that at all.

But you’re sadly mistaken if you think deliberately misquoting something as you did is anything other than underhand.


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## RichA (Feb 15, 2022)

I don't really care anymore, but I'm struggling to see what difference the question mark makes to the overall tone of the statement / question.

What are you? Some kind of idiot?
reads much the same as,
What are you? Some kind of idiot
which is how the person targeted by the post could easily have interpreted the original lines.


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2022)

Guys, can we stop all this? I like a bit of back and forth banter as much as the next guy, but this has been going on waaaaaaaay too long. 

There are people I expect never to persuade and people who expect never to persuade me, and that is OK.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 15, 2022)

RichA said:



			I don't really care anymore, but I'm struggling to see what difference the question mark makes to the overall tone of the statement / question.

What are you? Some kind of idiot?
reads much the same as,
What are you? Some kind of idiot
which is how the person targeted by the post could easily have interpreted the original lines.
		
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But I didn’t interpret it in a bad way, I took it as a generic statement.


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## RichA (Feb 15, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			But I didn’t interpret it in a bad way, I took it as a generic statement.
		
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Sorry. I was referring to the criticism of the poster whose omission of the question mark was raising questions, rather than the poster of the post that raised the response with the question mark.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			That’s how you read it. I didn’t read it like that at all.

But you’re sadly mistaken if you think deliberately misquoting something as you did is anything other than underhand.
		
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I didn't misquote anything and certainly wasn't being underhanded.

If someone only poses a question then it would be phrased :

"How long should Covid regulations be maintained? "

If the question is followed by something like:

"untill there is zero Covid?".

This is suggesting the answer the person expects you to make and as such the question then becomes rhetorical and an accusation.  The question mark is grammatically correct but due to it being accidentally missed in the cut and paste takes away nothing from the meaning.

I accept that the reply was to a post made to @paulj42 and not myself.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Can I respectfully suggest you are confusing “proper work” with “work of his choice”?  There was, as I understand it,  plenty of proper work available, but not apparently the preferred choice of work.
		
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You think so…as for others who really have no idea so should keep your own counsel.


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## drdel (Feb 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Guys, can we stop all this? I like a bit of back and forth banter as much as the next guy, but this has been going on waaaaaaaay too long.

There are people I expect never to persuade and people who expect never to persuade me, and that is OK.
		
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Its a thread on a hosted forum, so within  the rules anyone can contribute.

Some content may be inane, OTT and boring. Nobody is forced to read and /or respond so if you're annoyed by the commentary why not simply stop reading and posting rather than highhandedly dictating to others.


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2022)

drdel said:



			Its a thread on a hosted forum, so within  the rules anyone can contribute.

Some content may be inane, OTT and boring. Nobody is forced to read and /or respond so if you're annoyed by the commentary why not simply stop reading and posting rather than highhandedly dictating to others.
		
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Err, aren't you highhandedly dictating to me?


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## PNWokingham (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I do not think this - I ask why ALL restriction NOW, and at the same time why stop free tests and need to report. The comment in respect of my son is completely irrelevant and unacceptable.  You have absolutely no idea.
		
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because that is the direction of travel, because we are vaccinated, because the NHS has coped with the massive spike in infections and most who are critical are unvaccinated and/or vulnerable, beacsue treating covid is way more advanced than it was, because restrictions cost the economy a lot of money, because servicing our national debt is becoming a lot more expoensive, because incomes are being squeezed and declining in real terms, because we need to maximise economic growth to pay for all these things and pump billions into the NHS, because for 99% of the poulation covid is not a killer or the big worry that is was this time last year, because restrictions have taken 2 years of our lives (or rephrase that been around to a greater/lesser degree for 2 years), because it has deeply affected our children's education and mental health, because we want to stop debating covid and restrictions. And this, unfortunately means that, round the margins, removing restrictions will still inconvenience a very small % of the poulatioin a bit longer (and maybe a bit harsher) - but, without being seen as unkind or uncaring of the vulnerable, that is what the majority of the poulation would want


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

drdel said:



			...rather than *highhandedly dictating *to others.
		
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'dictating'?! It was a relatively polie request imo! 
'highhandedly'? Pot and Kettle springs to mind!

I can't imagine opinions of the main participants in the this particular area changing, so it certainly makes for rather dull reading of updates!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 15, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			because that is the direction of travel, because we are vaccinated, because the NHS has coped with the massive spike in infections and most who are critical are unvaccinated and/or vulnerable, beacsue treating covid is way more advanced than it was, because restrictions cost the economy a lot of money, because servicing our national debt is becoming a lot more expoensive, because incomes are being squeezed and declining in real terms, because we need to maximise economic growth to pay for all these things and pump billions into the NHS, because for 99% of the poulation covid is not a killer or the big worry that is was this time last year, because restrictions have taken 2 years of our lives (or rephrase that been around to a greater/lesser degree for 2 years), because it has deeply affected our children's education and mental health, because we want to stop debating covid and restrictions. And this, unfortunately means that, round the margins, removing restrictions will still inconvenience a very small % of the poulatioin a bit longer (and maybe a bit harsher) - but, without being seen as unkind or uncaring of the vulnerable, that is what the majority of the poulation would want
		
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It’s what YOU and some others on here want.  I suggest that it’s not for you to presume that you speak for the majority when you don’t know.  As it happens you may be right.  That a small percentage of the population may suffer significant inconvenience does not it seems bother you that much as long as you don’t have to wear a bleedin mask, and take an occasional test. And yes…of course…the economy.  Well I cannot comment further on that.

I would have fewer concerns were I to hear Whitty and Vallance look me straight in the eye down the tv camera lens and tell me that they agree.  But I haven’t.  And for very obvious and incontrovertible reasons I doubt the true motives of those behind what is happening and what is proposed.

And that is, I am afraid, the bottom line.  Trust or lack of it.


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

D-S said:



			Well as you haven’t checked today’s reported number for England is Friday’s number 11-2-22, not a weekend. The previous Friday was 1186, this Friday it was 996.
		
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England numbers for Sunday sneak back over 1000. Wales and NI figures, but none availble for England/Scotland still suggest 'reporting delays' mean figures possibly aren't absolutely reliable. Good trend over last week though!


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## Hobbit (Feb 15, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't misquote anything and certainly wasn't being underhanded.

If someone only poses a question then it would be phrased :

"How long should Covid regulations be maintained? "

If the question is followed by something like:

"untill there is zero Covid?".

This is suggesting the answer the person expects you to make and as such the question then becomes rhetorical and an accusation.  The question mark is grammatically correct but due to it being accidentally missed in the cut and paste takes away nothing from the meaning.

I accept that the reply was to a post made to @paulj42 and not myself.
		
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You have drawn the conclusion from a starting point of your own bias.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s what YOU and some others on here want.  I suggest that it’s not for you to presume that you speak for the majority when you don’t know.  As it happens you may be right.  That a *small percentage of the population may suffer significant inconvenience does not it seems bother you that much as long as you don’t have to wear a bleedin mask*, and take an occasional test. And yes…of course…the economy.  Well I cannot comment further on that.

I would have fewer concerns were I to hear Whitty and Vallance look me straight in the eye down the tv camera lens and tell me that they agree.  But I haven’t.  And for very obvious and incontrovertible reasons I doubt the true motives of those behind what is happening and what is proposed.

And that is, I am afraid, the bottom line.  Trust or lack of it.
		
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I think that is incredibly unfair.

You keep suggesting that people that are happy for restrictions to be lifted are not bothered about a small percentage of the population. And, there was no "?", so you definitely seemed to be suggesting that is how you feel. What about people that have vulnerable family members, who are happy about easing restrictions? Do they not care about their own family?

And, we just keep spinning around here. How long do you want the state to order us to wear a mask, given Covid will exist in some form or another for a very long time? And, we'll always have people that are vulnerable.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 15, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			You have drawn the conclusion from a starting point of your own bias.
		
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I could accuse you of the same.
I've drawn them from a starting point of my understanding of the context.

This going on about whether a question mark was missed on purpose is now getting silly and completely out of context.  I've finished discussing it now so you are at will to draw your own conclusions.


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## PNWokingham (Feb 15, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s what YOU and some others on here want.  I suggest that it’s not for you to presume that you speak for the majority when you don’t know.  As it happens you may be right.  That a small percentage of the population may suffer significant inconvenience does not it seems bother you that much as long as you don’t have to wear a bleedin mask, and take an occasional test. And yes…of course…the economy.  Well I cannot comment further on that.

I would have fewer concerns were I to hear Whitty and Vallance look me straight in the eye down the tv camera lens and tell me that they agree.  But I haven’t.  And for very obvious and incontrovertible reasons I doubt the true motives of those behind what is happening and what is proposed.

And that is, I am afraid, the bottom line.  Trust or lack of it.
		
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Swango has responded with common sense and I am out so will leave it brief. Your response is way out of order personal where I was offering logic and reasons. You warrant no further words


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I think that is incredibly unfair.

You keep suggesting that people that are happy for restrictions to be lifted are not bothered about a small percentage of the population. And, there was no "?", so you definitely seemed to be suggesting that is how you feel. What about people that have vulnerable family members, who are happy about easing restrictions? Do they not care about their own family?

And, we just keep spinning around here. How long do you want the state to order us to wear a mask, given Covid will exist in some form or another for a very long time? And, we'll always have people that are vulnerable.
		
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Did you skip the words 'it seems'?! It appears so, as a simple 'not the case' reply was all that's needed!


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			.... *and I am out* ...
		
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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 15, 2022)

Anyway sorry to break it up 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1493601692826406916


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			England numbers for Sunday sneak back over 1000. Wales and NI figures, but none availble for England/Scotland still suggest 'reporting delays' mean figures possibly aren't absolutely reliable. Good trend over last week though!
		
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Not being controversial, I genuinely don't know the answer to the following question, so interested to know.

Are the reported hospital (and even death) figures simply "people with Covid" (I.e they include people who would have been admitted to hospital anyway due to another primary medical condition). Or, are they shown only for people who would not have been in hospital if it wasn't for Covid (I.e. Covid is the primary reason they were in hospital)?


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not being controversial, I genuinely don't know the answer to the following question, so interested to know.

Are the reported hospital (and even death) figures simply "people with Covid" (I.e they include people who would have been admitted to hospital anyway due to another primary medical condition). Or, are they shown only for people who would not have been in hospital if it wasn't for Covid (I.e. Covid is the primary reason they were in hospital)?
		
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Nor do I. But I suspect it's 'people with Covid'. Irrespective, the numerical trend is what's important.


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## RichA (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Not being controversial, I genuinely don't know the answer to the following question, so interested to know.

Are the reported hospital (and even death) figures simply "people with Covid" (I.e they include people who would have been admitted to hospital anyway due to another primary medical condition). Or, are they shown only for people who would not have been in hospital if it wasn't for Covid (I.e. Covid is the primary reason they were in hospital)?
		
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This might answer most of your questions...
"Covid deaths in UK continue to fall"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60388805


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Nor do I. But I suspect it's 'people with Covid'. Irrespective, the numerical trend is what's important.
		
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The reason I asked is that, if it simply just that they happen to have Covid, could it not be misleading. We know the latest variant is much more transmissable, and testing it also better, so it would stand to reason many more would have Covid if comparing to the past.

However, I guess it is OK looking at short term trends, rather than comparing the numbers, for example to those at the start of the pandemic or when other variants were dominant.


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The reason I asked is that, if it simply just that they happen to have Covid, *could it not be misleading*. We know the latest variant is much more transmissable, and testing it also better, so it would stand to reason many more would have Covid if comparing to the past.

However, I guess it is OK looking at short term trends, rather than comparing the numbers, for example to those at the start of the pandemic or when other variants were dominant.
		
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Notwithstanding my hatred of 'not' in questions...It depends what is being measured. Trends like the reduction in hospitalisation, irrespective of whether it's 'because of' or 'with' Covid are still valid.


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## adam6177 (Feb 15, 2022)

I see Wales are due to offer all 5-11 year olds covid jabs.... For those of us with kids in that age group, how do you feel about this eventually being offered to you?

For my son me and the Mrs are 100% on this one, no chance is he having it.


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			I see Wales are due to offer all 5-11 year olds covid jabs.... For those of us with kids in that age group, how do you feel about this eventually being offered to you?

For my son me and the Mrs are 100% on this one, no chance is he having it.
		
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Why not?
To me (with no evidence), they are now likely to be/become the major spreaders!


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## Ethan (Feb 15, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			I see Wales are due to offer all 5-11 year olds covid jabs.... For those of us with kids in that age group, how do you feel about this eventually being offered to you?

For my son me and the Mrs are 100% on this one, no chance is he having it.
		
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The risk to a preteen from Covid is small, but not zero. That risk includes the unseen effects which are now becoming a matter of concern, for adults and kids. It isn't just the risk of a serious acute illness. The risk of the vaccine is even smaller, hence the benefit-risk ratio is favourable. The dose used is much smaller than the adult dose. 

If you think you know the right answer 100%, in either direction, you have not reached a balanced view.


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## drdel (Feb 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Err, aren't you highhandedly dictating to me?
		
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Yup...


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 15, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			The reason I asked is that, if it simply just that they happen to have Covid, could it not be misleading. We know the latest variant is much more transmissable, and testing it also better, so it would stand to reason many more would have Covid if comparing to the past.

However, I guess it is OK looking at short term trends, rather than comparing the numbers, for example to those at the start of the pandemic or when other variants were dominant.
		
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The last set of figures I saw, from a couple of weeks ago, was that those in intensive care beds WITH Covid accounted for just over 50% of the total, and those in intensive care FOR or BECAUSE of Covid was just under 50%. So a little over half of those in intensive care were primarily being treated for something else but had tested positive for Covid. That's not to say that having Covid wasn't complicating their treatment but simply that their primary reason for being there wasn't Covid. Not sure how that's changed recently.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 15, 2022)

Jeez….just go out, do whatever you feel comfortable with….go where you feel comfortable, not where you don’t….stay outside, go inside, maybe a mask and maybe not but just get on with it.

FYI….I wear a mask in most settings but am happy to sit in the pub when needed….I have people who are old/vulnerable….I go see them, drop stuff off, help them out but don’t do too close…..


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## Foxholer (Feb 15, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The last set of figures I saw, from a couple of weeks ago, was that those in intensive care beds WITH Covid accounted for just over 50% of the total, and those in intensive care FOR or BECAUSE of Covid was just under 50%. So a little over half of those in intensive care were primarily being treated for something else but had tested positive for Covid. That's not to say that having Covid wasn't complicating their treatment but simply that their primary reason for being there wasn't Covid. Not sure how that's changed recently.
		
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It wouldn't be unreasonable to extrapolate those percentages a month or so earlier imo. I'd also consider that a sizeable number of those 'with Covid' are in there because Covis is exacerbating their other issues - so pretty much 'because of Covid' and not to be ignored entirely. Again, if, as likely, the percentages match, it makes no odds about numbers to ignore - unless trying to 'manipulate' numbers! It likely wouldn't be the same across a variant boundary though.


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## D-S (Feb 15, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			The last set of figures I saw, from a couple of weeks ago, was that those in intensive care beds WITH Covid accounted for just over 50% of the total, and those in intensive care FOR or BECAUSE of Covid was just under 50%. So a little over half of those in intensive care were primarily being treated for something else but had tested positive for Covid. That's not to say that having Covid wasn't complicating their treatment but simply that their primary reason for being there wasn't Covid. Not sure how that's changed recently.
		
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Here is an article from today on the BBC website which, at least partially, throws some light on this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60388805


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## road2ruin (Feb 15, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			I see Wales are due to offer all 5-11 year olds covid jabs.... For those of us with kids in that age group, how do you feel about this eventually being offered to you?

For my son me and the Mrs are 100% on this one, no chance is he having it.
		
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We’ve discussed it and for the time being it’s a no, she’ll (7yrs) not have it. She’s had the virus so will have natural immunity and to be honest came through it unscathed so we’re going to hold fire on any vaccine. 

I don’t feel it’s wrong that any other parents decide that they want theirs to get done. Personal decision imo.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 15, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Without sounding flippant as I do appreciate your situation but do you not have confidence in the vaccine? Given that the present variant is ‘milder’ for most and your family would be triple jabbed aren’t they at a point where they have to decide to get out? It’s highly likely that they’ll contract Covid at some point and, so far, the vaccine has proved highly effective at preventing serious illness and hospitalisation amongst the vulnerable. 

With regards the lifting of restrictions, even if you got your way and they were kept for the next 6 months there will still become a point where they will be lifted and, probably come winter, they will be faced with exactly the same challenges. I know it’s not an easy situation however you’re not going to be able to enforce mandatory isolation especially given that so many simply couldn’t afford to do so. 

Rumours are that free tests are to end from next week so that really makes the publishing of Covid figures redundant.
		
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I can see a lot of points on both "sides", but re your first paragraph, -
Where do you see the people who are subject of the death figures, if they are not the ones you describe, I.e the vulnerable?
Do you seriously believe that some of the vulnerable who have been fully jabbed are not amongst those figures? Yes, some vulnerable have had it easier because of the jabs, but I suspect not as easy as your post reads
.It doesn't cost a lot to delay (till spring) lifting the present requirements - then the figures drop sharply, those summer months will buy time to lessen viral loads of those infected, build herd immunity and then when next winter begins we'll all be in a stronger place.
Abandoning measures still in the middle of winter when most gatherings are still indoors is surely unwise?
Yes, it has to happen soon, but there is a hell of a difference between February and April.


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2022)

Some early data from Japan showing that in lab tests, the new BA.2 variant of omicron is both more contagious and more pathogenic than the currently prevalent BA.1 variant. It also appears to be potentially more vaccine resistant.

There was a news story earlier this week in which a leading UK virologist reminded us that viruses do not necessarily get less virulent with evolution, a point I have made here before.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some early data from Japan showing that in lab tests, the new BA.2 variant of omicron is both more contagious and more pathogenic than the currently prevalent BA.1 variant. It also appears to be potentially more vaccine resistant.

There was a news story earlier this week in which a leading UK virologist reminded us that viruses do not necessarily get less virulent with evolution, a point I have made here before.
		
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Guess we will just have to live with it.


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## DanFST (Feb 16, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Can we just lock the thread? I don't care who wears masks, I don't care what percentage of the 12k deaths per day were suspected covid.

It's just bickering, and after 2 years i'm so tired of it. Get jabbed, stay away from people, job done.
		
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I should buy a lottery ticket.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 16, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I should buy a lottery ticket.
		
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If you don't care (and that's entirely your prerogative) then look away, pass on the other side, don't read it. Anything but post on here that you don't like what's being said. Job done.


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## GB72 (Feb 16, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some early data from Japan showing that in lab tests, the new BA.2 variant of omicron is both more contagious and more pathogenic than the currently prevalent BA.1 variant. It also appears to be potentially more vaccine resistant.

There was a news story earlier this week in which a leading UK virologist reminded us that viruses do not necessarily get less virulent with evolution, a point I have made here before.
		
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Out of interest, how does it compare to Delta. I am taking Omicron as the low bench point for being pathogenic and the high for contagion and assume (though would be interested to know for sure) whether Delta was the current high for being pathogenic.


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## WGCRider (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			We’ve discussed it and for the time being it’s a no, she’ll (7yrs) not have it. She’s had the virus so will have natural immunity and to be honest came through it unscathed so we’re going to hold fire on any vaccine.

I don’t feel it’s wrong that any other parents decide that they want theirs to get done. Personal decision imo.
		
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You don't convince anyone by insulting them but this is a truly moronic take. 
It's like saying "look, I've got smallpox - I know I'm going to die, but I deserve a nice day out with lots of people in the shopping center - Personal decision imo"
Your 7 year old will be fine either way vax/no vax - but she's rolling the dice for her grandparents, elderly neighbors and frankly anyone else over 50.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			You don't convince anyone by insulting them but this is a truly moronic take.
It's like saying "look, I've got smallpox - I know I'm going to die, but I deserve a nice day out with lots of people in the shopping center - Personal decision imo"
Your 7 year old will be fine either way vax/no vax - but she's rolling the dice for her grandparents, elderly neighbors and frankly anyone else over 50.
		
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Her grandparents are triple vaxxed so they'll be fine thank you. The vaccine is to the protect the individual and, at present, I am yet to be convinced that it's needed for that age group. That may change in the future but not yet.

Elderly neighbours and others over 50yrs, assume they will have had the vaccine if offered and that gives lots of protection, we'll give the vaccine based on what it does for our daughter, not others.



WGCRider said:



			It's like saying "look, I've got smallpox - I know I'm going to die, but I deserve a nice day out with lots of people in the shopping center - Personal decision imo"
		
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BTW, this is one of the stupidest comparisons I've ever seen on this forum and that really takes some doing.


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## bobmac (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			She’s had the virus so will have natural immunity and to be honest came through it unscathed so we’re going to hold fire on any vaccine.
		
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Do you know how long her immunity will last?
Best guesses say between 3 months and 61 months. In other words they don't know yet.
And will her immunity protect her from new variants?

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-last-after-covid-19-what-we-know

From what I've read, the vaccine should be given to children who already have health problems or live with people who have weakened immune system, so you might be ok. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ildren-aged-5-to-11-years-of-age-at-high-risk


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, how does it compare to Delta. I am taking Omicron as the low bench point for being pathogenic and the high for contagion and assume (though would be interested to know for sure) whether Delta was the current high for being pathogenic.
		
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In terms of acute illness, Delta is definitely more pathogenic and causes more people to get hospitalised or die. Omicron is relatively milder but can still cause problems.

We don't really know yet is other effects are proportional. Long Covid probably is, because it is a continuation of the acute illness, but other effects in people who did not have an acute illness or who have recovered may not be as mild.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Do you know how long her immunity will last?
Best guesses say between 3 months and 61 months. In other words they don't know yet.
And will her immunity protect her from new variants?

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-last-after-covid-19-what-we-know

From what I've read, the vaccine should be given to children who already have health problems or live with people who have weakened immune system, so you might be ok.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ildren-aged-5-to-11-years-of-age-at-high-risk

Click to expand...

Is that no different to the vaccines, their immunity has also been shown to wane pretty quickly? 

We are fortunate, she has no health problems and, as far as I know, neither do we so we'll take our chances.


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			We’ve discussed it and for the time being it’s a no, she’ll (7yrs) not have it. She’s had the virus so will have natural immunity and to be honest came through it unscathed so we’re going to hold fire on any vaccine.

I don’t feel it’s wrong that any other parents decide that they want theirs to get done. Personal decision imo.
		
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I think that is fair enough. You have a rational argument to hold fire. We offered our boys (12 and 14) the choice and had a chat but left it to them. They both decided to get it. 

I wouldn't take exactly the same approach with a 7 year old, but there are clearly arguments for and against.


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Do you know how long her immunity will last?
Best guesses say between 3 months and 61 months. In other words they don't know yet.
And will her immunity protect her from new variants?

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-last-after-covid-19-what-we-know

From what I've read, the vaccine should be given to children who already have health problems or live with people who have weakened immune system, so you might be ok.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ildren-aged-5-to-11-years-of-age-at-high-risk

Click to expand...

Immunity depends on what you were exposed to and what your immunity is against. Omicron-induced immunity is not very strong or long lasting. Alpha or Delta-induced immunity is better. All are improved by vaccination.


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## WGCRider (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			The vaccine is to the protect the individual
		
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It's not, it's to protect everyone. Including those that are unable to get the vaccine



road2ruin said:



			Her grandparents are triple vaxxed so they'll be fine thank you.
		
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Happy to hear it. 
This is mean spirited, but my genuine wish is that if people have "done their research" and chosen not to get the vaccine do get ill - that they are also treated by people that used the same sources to research their treatment.


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## DanFST (Feb 16, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			It's not, it's to protect everyone. Including those that are unable to get the vaccine
Happy to hear it.
This is mean spirited, but my genuine wish is that if people have "done their research" and chosen not to get the vaccine do get ill - that they are also treated by people that used the same sources to research their treatment.
		
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This is the new "most stupid post" of the 25,590.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			It's not, it's to protect everyone. Including those that are unable to get the vaccine
		
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Not according to the JCVI who have said that "_the main focus of its considerations should be the potential benefits and harms of vaccination to children and young people themselves_." i.e. not to protect the population, at that age where (fortunately) the virus is very mild it is whether the vaccine is to benefit the individual.  



WGCRider said:



			Happy to hear it.
This is mean spirited, but my genuine wish is that if people have "done their research" and chosen not to get the vaccine do get ill - that they are also treated by people that used the same sources to research their treatment.
		
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More tripe. You cannot compare the non-vaccination of a 7 year old (or similar) against that of anti-vaxers.


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			You don't convince anyone by insulting them but this is a truly moronic take.
It's like saying "look, I've got smallpox - I know I'm going to die, but I deserve a nice day out with lots of people in the shopping center - Personal decision imo"
Your 7 year old will be fine either way vax/no vax - but she's rolling the dice for her grandparents, elderly neighbors and frankly anyone else over 50.
		
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I, too, used to think that those that have been vaccinated will carry a lower viral load, if they catch Covid, than the unvaccinated. There’s a really good piece in the Lancet detailing research carried out in Germany and USA which suggests that there’s little difference in viral load, only how severe the symptoms appear.


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## bobmac (Feb 16, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			There’s a really good piece in the Lancet detailing research carried out in Germany and USA which suggests that there’s little difference in viral load, only how severe the symptoms appear.
		
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Have you got a link to that please?


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			This is mean spirited, but my genuine wish is that if people have "done their research" and chosen not to get the vaccine do get ill - that they are also treated by people that used the same sources to research their treatment.
		
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I don't wish ill on the average citizen who chooses not to get it. I think it is irresponsible, but such is life. When I hear a story about a public figure who campaigned against vaccination then gets Covid and ends up in ICU, I am afraid I am all out of sympathy for them. 



road2ruin said:



			Not according to the JCVI who have said that "_the main focus of its considerations should be the potential benefits and harms of vaccination to children and young people themselves_." i.e. not to protect the population, at that age where (fortunately) the virus is very mild it is whether the vaccine is to benefit the individual.
		
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The JCVI have not had a consistent position on this. The children Covid decision was based on a political decision to push the decision out to the CMOs. The same JCVI approved HPV vaccines for teenage boys even though almost all the benefit is to their future sexual partners. They clearly took a (reasonable) population position on that one.


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## Foxholer (Feb 16, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Have you got a link to that please?
		
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This one? https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext
There are others too - including at least 1 that mentions UK.


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## Foxholer (Feb 16, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I, too, used to think that those that have been vaccinated will carry a lower viral load, if they catch Covid, than the unvaccinated. There’s a really good piece in the Lancet detailing research carried out in Germany and USA which suggests that there’s little difference in viral load, only how severe the symptoms appear.
		
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And there's also the psychological aspect that being vaccinated provides, which can be both positive - as in being happy to return to work etc - and negative - as in being unaware that they may be a carrier and/but ignoring/reducing the measures previously taken to reduce Covid's spread. Vaccinated folk could well be greater spreaders than non-vaccinated ones!


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Have you got a link to that please?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext


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## Ethan (Feb 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			This one? https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext
There are others too - including at least 1 that mentions UK.
		
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That is a letter rather than a peer-reviewed study, so more info would be needed. The author is something of a vaccination skeptic. It would not be surprising if, at initial assessment when a PCR would typically be done, the unvaccinated and partially or full vaccinated carry the same amount of virus. The vaccine is not a forcefield. But it would also be important to know about the replication of virus in people, and it would be surprising if virus replicated to a similar degree in all, and that is probably a more important driver of transmissibility than initial infection load. 

It also misses the point that those who develop symptoms over-represent the unvaccinated. 

His argument is a bit like saying that people who wear seat belts and who smash their faces into the windscreens anyway suffer as much damage as those who don't wear seat belts and smash their faces. Therefore seat belts confer no real benefit.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			It's not, it's to protect everyone. Including those that are unable to get the vaccine
		
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And just to add, just listened to an interview on the radio with a member of the JCVI about why vaccinations were being offered to 5-11yr olds. She went through the thinking, pro's and con's but one of the things she did say is that with the the new variant the transmission was comparable for those who are vaxxed vs those who are unvaxxed so that pretty much ruins your argument. 

The reasons given were to protect the child against a possible future variant that may be more harmful rather than a protection of the population.


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## Foxholer (Feb 16, 2022)

D-S said:



			Well as you haven’t checked today’s reported number for England is Friday’s number 11-2-22, not a weekend. The previous Friday was 1186, this Friday it was 996.
		
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And numbers for England on Monday are back over 1100, conforming to the pattern I observed some time back - that numbers seem to drop over weekend, then increase for the working week. Reporting issues? Desperate working carers?


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## D-S (Feb 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			And numbers for England on Monday are back over 1100, conforming to the pattern I observed some time back - that numbers seem to drop over weekend, then increase for the working week. Reporting issues? Desperate working carers?
		
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Still 8% lower than the same day last week and patients in hospital continue their steady drop, passing the 10,000 threshold today. The direction of travel is still positive.


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## Foxholer (Feb 16, 2022)

D-S said:



			Still 8% lower than the same day last week and patients in hospital continue their steady drop, passing the 10,000 threshold today. The direction of travel is still positive.
		
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Agreed! As I've previously asserted (and/but forgot to repeat in the post you quoted) the trend is down, which is good news.


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## WGCRider (Feb 16, 2022)

DanFST said:



			This is the new "most stupid post" of the 25,590.
		
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You're probably right - let me clarify.

I think that if people who have refused the vaccine get ill they should be treated by someone who has "researched" how to treat them online - preferably research from facebook. Also best if this treatment takes place in a hospital car park rather than on a ward.


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## bobmac (Feb 16, 2022)

Hobbit said:



https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext

Click to expand...

Thanks.
A little out of date I think.

Updated Feb 1st 2022
_''The omicron subvariant is more contagious, but vaccinated people are less likely to spread it, study finds''_
_https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/the...are-less-likely-to-spread-it-study-finds.html_


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## WGCRider (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			And just to add, just listened to an interview on the radio with a member of the JCVI about why vaccinations were being offered to 5-11yr olds. She went through the thinking, pro's and con's but one of the things she did say is that with the the new variant the transmission was comparable for those who are vaxxed vs those who are unvaxxed so that pretty much ruins your argument.

The reasons given were to protect the child against a possible future variant that may be more harmful rather than a protection of the population.
		
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I don't disagree that when it comes to children there are still lessons to be learnt about how best to manage a pandemic. That said, I'd judge you to be a fool if you refused the MMR or 6 in 1 (polio, hep b, whooping cough etc.) vaccine for you child. And would judge someone similarly with the covid vaccine. It's clearly part of any solution.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Her grandparents are triple vaxxed so they'll be fine thank you. The vaccine is to the protect the individual and, at present, I am yet to be convinced that it's needed for that age group. That may change in the future but not yet.

Elderly neighbours and others over 50yrs, assume they will have had the vaccine if offered and that gives lots of protection, we'll give the vaccine based on what it does for our daughter, not others.



BTW, this is one of the stupidest comparisons I've ever seen on this forum and that really takes some doing.
		
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Your first sentence clearly implies you think anyone triple vaxxed is protected and will not get ill,or die. I think you are hundred per cent wrong on that.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			I don't disagree that when it comes to children there are still lessons to be learnt about how best to manage a pandemic. That said, I'd judge you to be a fool if you refused the MMR or 6 in 1 (polio, hep b, whooping cough etc.) vaccine for you child. And would judge someone similarly with the covid vaccine. It's clearly part of any solution.
		
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I wouldn’t/haven’t refused those vaccines as they can prove to be dangerous to the child. I don’t look at Covid in the same way and that’s also reflected by the split in the scientists. 

You have your opinion but it’s just that, it’s not particularly backed by science as it’s its marginal at best. It’s personal decision and that, for the time being, is the one we’ve made.


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## road2ruin (Feb 16, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Your first sentence clearly implies you think anyone triple vaxxed is protected and will not get ill,or die. I think you are hundred per cent wrong on that.
		
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Rubbish. I’m well aware the vaccine is t full proof but as the JCVI doctor said today, with Omicron, the transmission levels between vaxxed and unvaxxed and similar so getting my daughter vaccinated isn’t going to do much to stop the spread or protect others. Our decision is based on solely the benefits to her health and we’re not at a point that we would have her vaccinated. That may well change in the coming months/years.


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2022)

One of the local bowling clubs arranged a trip to Benidorm for 4 days from last Wednesday. 20 odd went, all triple jabbed, and 4 now have Covid. Interclub winter league cancelled for 10 days.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Rubbish. I’m well aware the vaccine is t full proof but as the JCVI doctor said today, with Omicron, t*he transmission levels between vaxxed and unvaxxed and similar* so getting my daughter vaccinated isn’t going to do much to stop the spread or protect others. Our decision is based on solely the benefits to her health and we’re not at a point that we would have her vaccinated. That may well change in the coming months/years.
		
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I'm sure @Ethan will be able to confirm or deny this but isn't it that if infected the transmission levels between vaxxed and unvaxxed are pretty similar but those who are vaxxed are less likely to get it so therefore have a lower chance of spreading it? 

I'm not arguing against your decision to not get your daughter vaxxed as that is entirely a matter for you, your other half and your daughter.


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## hovis (Feb 16, 2022)

I could also do with some education here.   The vacine doesn't seem to do much as far as transmission goes.  With that in mind why would I vax my 7 year old daughter?  I am first to admit I am not savy when it comes to covid. The more I read the more confused I get


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## Foxholer (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Rubbish. I’m well aware the vaccine is t full proof but as the JCVI doctor said today, with Omicron, the transmission levels between vaxxed and unvaxxed and similar so getting my daughter vaccinated isn’t going to do much to stop the spread or protect others. Our decision is based on solely the benefits to her health and we’re not at a point that we would have her vaccinated. That may well change in the coming months/years.
		
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Apologies if you've already answered this, but why WOULDN'T you though?


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## Hobbit (Feb 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			I could also do with some education here.   The vacine doesn't seem to do much as far as transmission goes.  With that in mind why would I vax my 7 year old daughter?  I am first to admit I am not savy when it comes to covid. The more I read the more confused I get
		
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If your daughter has an underlying condition you don’t know about, she might need that extra bit of protection. Our youngest son had a heart condition that manifested itself at around 5 years old. Nothing major, and since sorted, but with that in mind I’d be getting them jabbed.

Each to their own. If someone is wary and decides no, their choice. Totally respect that choice. We each do, or did, what we think is best.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Apologies if you've already answered this, but why WOULDN'T you though?
		
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Are you questioning why he won’t get his 7 year old vaccinated? Not really anything to do with you is it?


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 16, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Rubbish. I’m well aware the vaccine is t full proof but as the JCVI doctor said today, with Omicron, the transmission levels between vaxxed and unvaxxed and similar so getting my daughter vaccinated isn’t going to do much to stop the spread or protect others. Our decision is based on solely the benefits to her health and we’re not at a point that we would have her vaccinated. That may well change in the coming months/years.
		
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This answer is not anything to do with what I said. My brief sentence was talking only about your first sentence. Read it again.
The rest of your argument about your daughter and your decision etc is something that I haven't commented on, am not commenting on, nor do I wish to comment on😀


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## larmen (Feb 16, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			If your daughter has an underlying condition you don’t know about, she might need that extra bit of protection. Our youngest son had a heart condition that manifested itself at around 5 years old. Nothing major, and since sorted, but with that in mind I’d be getting them jabbed.

Each to their own. If someone is wary and decides no, their choice. Totally respect that choice. We each do, or did, what we think is best.
		
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Our 5 y/o got invited last week because he is monitored based on my condition. He just came out of a covid infection anyway, we think that means he has to wait 12 weeks anyway? He has his annual checkup at Great Ormond well before that, going to get advise then. We are all boostered and recovered in the house otherwise.


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## Foxholer (Feb 16, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Are you questioning why he won’t get his 7 year old vaccinated? Not really anything to do with you is it?
		
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I'm not 'questioning', as it's a parent's right. Just trying to understand the reasoning. No different to my attitude re Djokovic's decision(s).
FWIW, there a hefty chunk of 'Pot and Kettle' about your post!


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## Leftitshort (Feb 16, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not 'questioning', as it's a parent's right. Just trying to understand the reasoning. No different to my attitude re Djokovic's decision(s).
FWIW, there a hefty chunk of 'Pot and Kettle' about your post!
		
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Without raising the question mark nonsense again, it was clearly a question….one of these indicates that ??. Therefore you were questioning. Not really your place to question why anyone won’t get their child vaccinated. Not sure what you mean by the last bit, but most of the stuff you post is irrelevant gibberish. However it’s not your place to question the OP. I’ve not had my (older) kids vaccinated, ask me why?


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## ExRabbit (Feb 16, 2022)

Currently realising how hard it is to remember to keep a distance from my wife in the house - she tested positive this afternoon. I'm currently negative and will try to keep it that way so at least one of us can leave the house if necessary.

Spent a good 15 minutes reading all of the current rules!


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## Foxholer (Feb 16, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Without raising the question mark nonsense again, it was clearly a question….one of these indicates that ??. Therefore you were questioning. Not really your place to question why anyone won’t get their child vaccinated. Not sure what you mean by the last bit, but most of the stuff you post is irrelevant gibberish. However it’s not your place to question the OP. I’ve not had my (older) kids vaccinated, ask me why?
		
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Your conclusion that I was 'questioning' (aka 'challenging') his/their decision is simply wrong. I was merely asking, which is, of course, a question. Thus the '?'! I'm not challenging his decision.
But, as I posted, none of this is really any of your business anyway!


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## RichA (Feb 16, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Without raising the question mark nonsense again, it was clearly a question….one of these indicates that ??. Therefore you were questioning. Not really your place to question why anyone won’t get their child vaccinated. Not sure what you mean by the last bit, but most of the stuff you post is irrelevant gibberish. However it’s not your place to question the OP. I’ve not had my (older) kids vaccinated, ask me why?
		
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There's an easy way to avoid having your private decisions questioned and that's to not publish them on the internet.


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## Leftitshort (Feb 17, 2022)

RichA said:



			There's an easy way to avoid having your private decisions questioned and that's to not publish them on the internet.
		
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Yep that’s  what this place is renowned for. Balanced, sympathetic discussion. One that would take a parents’ personal decision and treat it with sensitivity. In reality he’d have to defend it against a pack of geriatric bores displaying myopic self interest. You’re right he’s best not sharing


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## hovis (Feb 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not 'questioning', as it's a parent's right. Just trying to understand the reasoning. No different to my attitude re Djokovic's decision(s).
FWIW, there a hefty chunk of 'Pot and Kettle' about your post!
		
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I don't mind people questioning my thoughts.  I'm asking the question about my 7 year old daughter because why would I put her through the fright of having a needle in her arm (she's petrified of them) for something that for her is a runny nose.   Also, we don't know about long term effects of the vacines yet.  I'm happy to gamble with my health because it's a justified.  If the vacine stopped the rate of transmission by a good amount then I'd have it done in a heart beat.  I'm not an anti vader by a long stretch.  I just remember the government saying early on the the risk benefit isn't there for younger people.  What's changed?  Genuine question


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## road2ruin (Feb 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Apologies if you've already answered this, but why WOULDN'T you though?
		
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I am not convinced there is benefit to her personally of getting the vaccine. When the vaccine roll out was started it was for the elderly and the vulnerable for whom Covid was likely to be a very serious disease. As we’ve come down the ages it has been for a mixture of lowering the risk to the individual whilst also protecting the population. We’re now at an age group where there is little benefit on the health front so we’d only be doing it to protect others who should have had the jab themselves. Yes, I do appreciate that some cannot however that’s not a good enough reason for us to have our daughter done. 

She has also had Covid at least once and she (and all of her classmates) have been perfectly fine. 

Even the JCVI have come out and said that this is not being pushed as the previous vaccine rollouts have, it is purely there if a parent wishes to so I think that’s the end of any argument. You can disagree however it’s being offered purely as a personal preference and, as things stand, we’re holding fire.

Today’s figures suggest that if 1,000,000 children get vaccinated it will prevent 90 odd hospitalisations in a severe wave and 17 in a mild wave. Again, doesn’t feel as though that’s a persuasive argument for me.


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## drdel (Feb 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I am not convinced there is benefit to her personally of getting the vaccine. When the vaccine roll out was started it was for the elderly and the vulnerable for whom Covid was likely to be a very serious disease. As we’ve come down the ages it has been for a mixture of lowering the risk to the individual whilst also protecting the population. We’re now at an age group where there is little benefit on the health front so we’d only be doing it to protect others who should have had the jab themselves. Yes, I do appreciate that some cannot however that’s not a good enough reason for us to have our daughter done.

She has also had Covid at least once and she (and all of her classmates) have been perfectly fine.

Even the JCVI have come out and said that this is not being pushed as the previous vaccine rollouts have, it is purely there if a parent wishes to so I think that’s the end of any argument. You can disagree however it’s being offered purely as a personal preference and, as things stand, we’re holding fire.

Today’s figures suggest that if 1,000,000 children get vaccinated it will prevent 90 odd hospitalisations in a severe wave and 17 in a mild wave. Again, doesn’t feel as though that’s a persuasive argument for me.
		
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Unless your child  is one of the unfortunate 90!


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## hovis (Feb 17, 2022)

drdel said:



			Unless your child  is one of the unfortunate 90!
		
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Your child could be one of the many that die in car crashes every year.  But you still put them in your car every day.  You accept risk to your children everyday.  Even leaving the room whilst they are eating has risk.   I'd wager you have or do things everyday with your children that hospitalises more than 90children a year


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## Hobbit (Feb 17, 2022)

The rule of masks outside in public places was dropped just over a week ago. Just done a supermarket run. Only 1 person without a mask outside, and full compliance inside the supermarket.


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## drdel (Feb 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			Your child could be one of the many that die in car crashes every year.  But you still put them in your car every day.  You accept risk to your children everyday.  Even leaving the room whilst they are eating has risk.   I'd wager you have or do things everyday with your children that hospitalises more than 90children a year
		
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Strange extreme argument. 

You could apply that to everything in life: this is about avoidable extra deaths and illnesses.

You are talking in percentages, all I'm pointing out that there is POTENTIALLY about 90 kids that may be collateral additional deaths from not being vaccinated.

It is of course everyone's right to decide.


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## D-S (Feb 17, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			The rule of masks outside in public places was dropped just over a week ago. Just done a supermarket run. Only 1 person without a mask outside, and full compliance inside the supermarket.
		
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Quite high levels of cases and daily deaths for the population size if this level of compliance is typical across the whole country.


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## Ethan (Feb 17, 2022)

drdel said:



			Strange extreme argument.

You could apply that to everything in life: this is about avoidable extra deaths and illnesses.

You are talking in percentages, all I'm pointing out that there is POTENTIALLY about 90 kids that may be collateral additional deaths from not being vaccinated.

It is of course everyone's right to decide.
		
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It is an absurd argument (that you responded to). You take some unavoidable risks, so you may as well take some more. 

It is also irrelevant to vaccination, in which there is a legitimate choice, but it is choice between risks and benefits alternative strategies to maximise your chance of making an optimal choice.


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## Hobbit (Feb 17, 2022)

D-S said:



			Quite high levels of cases and daily deaths for the population size if this level of compliance is typical across the whole country.
		
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Cases are very high here in Spain at present and have been since mid January. Deaths are actually at a decent level compared to where it was in September. ICU bed occupation is around 50%.


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## road2ruin (Feb 17, 2022)

drdel said:



			Unless your child  is one of the unfortunate 90!
		
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That isn't the number of children, that's out of the general population i.e. 1,000,000 child vaccinations will prevent 90 people being hospitalised in a severe wave and 17 in a mild one.


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## D-S (Feb 17, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Cases are very high here in Spain at present and have been since mid January. Deaths are actually at a decent level compared to where it was in September. ICU bed occupation is around 50%.
		
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That’s odd as on Worldometer deaths for the past few week have been 361, 282 393, 389, 201, 301 and 444 which appeared high to me.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2022)

D-S said:



			That’s odd as on Worldometer deaths for the past few week have been 361, 282 393, 389, 201, 301 and 444 which appeared high to me.
		
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We've had some of those numbers in a day.


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			We've had some of those numbers in a day.
		
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Those are daily numbers


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## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			Those are daily numbers
		
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Yes I know, that's why I suggested we've had similar.


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## ExRabbit (Feb 17, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			Currently realising how hard it is to remember to keep a distance from my wife in the house - she tested positive this afternoon. I'm currently negative and will try to keep it that way so at least one of us can leave the house if necessary.

Spent a good 15 minutes reading all of the current rules! 

Click to expand...

Ah well - the horse had already bolted it seems. Woke up with what feels like a heavy cold, so took another test. Let the isolation begin!


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## D-S (Feb 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes I know, that's why I suggested we've had similar.
		
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With a 30% higher population.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2022)

D-S said:



			With a 30% higher population.
		
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Yes that's right.  I guess the cases per 100K are more relevant.


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes I know, that's why I suggested we've had similar.
		
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So you didn't think they were weekly numbers?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2022)

bobmac said:



			So you didn't think they were weekly numbers?
		
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That's what I said.

I was suggesting we had similar numbers.


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## bobmac (Feb 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			That's what I said.

I was suggesting we had similar numbers.
		
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## SocketRocket (Feb 17, 2022)

bobmac said:





Click to expand...

I meant they were daily numbers similar to ours.
Why are you asking ?


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2022)

Appears that Omicron has well and truly struck NZ, with cases rocketing.
As yet, serious/critical count is still zero, so goal of the 'total lockdown' measures (preventing hospitals from being swamped) still holds. 
Vaccination levels are pretty high (95% of 12+ with 2 jabs).


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			That isn't the number of children, that's out of the general population i.e. 1,000,000 child vaccinations will prevent 90 people being hospitalised in a severe wave and 17 in a mild one.
		
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Whatever, they are still lives, and as Ethan says there is a choice that can be made to make them avoidable.


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## road2ruin (Feb 17, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Whatever, they are still lives, and as Ethan says there is a choice that can be made to make them avoidable.
		
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Agree, there is a choice and as the JCVI have made clear it is down the the individual families to make it. I feel absolutely no guilt in making ours as it’s what we feel is best for our family and daughter in particular. In the future that decision may change. 

The spokesperson for the JCVI actually said yesterday that the vaccine has negligible impact on transmission with the new variant so stopping the spread isn’t really a massive consideration.


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			...
The spokesperson for the JCVI actually said yesterday that the vaccine has negligible impact on *transmission* with the new variant so stopping the spread isn’t really a massive consideration.
		
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That seems to be at odds with with previous info - and logic. That would suggest that vaccination does not prevent infection (sufficiently). Though I wouldn't be surprised if it 'had little on *transmissability*'. Previous announcements stated that either the impact was beneficial, or was uncertain.


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## road2ruin (Feb 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That seems to be at odds with with previous info - and logic. That would suggest that vaccination does not prevent infection (sufficiently). Though I wouldn't be surprised if it 'had little on *transmissability*'. Previous announcements stated that either the impact was beneficial, or was uncertain.
		
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I’m not going to claim any in-depth knowledge other than what the JCVI person said during the interview when she was being questioned about why they’d decided to lower the age range. 

The general takeaway was that the decision to make it available was purely made to allow those who wanted to have it to have it rather than it having a particularly beneficial effect on the spread itself.


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## Ethan (Feb 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Agree, there is a choice and as the JCVI have made clear it is down the the individual families to make it. I feel absolutely no guilt in making ours as it’s what we feel is best for our family and daughter in particular. In the future that decision may change.

The spokesperson for the JCVI actually said yesterday that the vaccine has negligible impact on transmission with the new variant so stopping the spread isn’t really a massive consideration.
		
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I agree that this is an individual choice and support any parent who looks at the arguments and makes a decision, whatever way they go. It would be good if they had the facts to do so. Not quite so keen on the adamant refusals.

One factor that plays into this is the commission/omission paradox. People are much less likely to take an active step - get a vaccine - that could cause harm than they are to act passively and expose themselves to risk or harm. If you get a vaccine, and it causes a side effect, you did it and it was your choice, but if you just catch Covid, that isn't really your fault, it was bad luck, always going to happen eventually etc etc. 

The JCVI have been behaving oddly on Covid vaccines, and appear to be influenced by factors outside the science. There is good evidence that vaccines reduce transmission, on both ends of the give and get side of transmission. Because the vaccine reduces the amount of viral replication, it must also reduce the amount of virus for onward transmission, and if someone is vaccinated they are less likely to get a clinical dose.


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## drdel (Feb 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That seems to be at odds with with previous info - and logic. That would suggest that vaccination does not prevent infection (sufficiently). Though I wouldn't be surprised if it 'had little on *transmissability*'. Previous announcements stated that either the impact was beneficial, or was uncertain.
		
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I'd have thought it would help reduce 'R'.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			I don't mind people questioning my thoughts.  I'm asking the question about my 7 year old daughter because why would I put her through the fright of having a needle in her arm (she's petrified of them) for something that for her is a runny nose.   Also, we don't know about long term effects of the vacines yet.  I'm happy to gamble with my health because it's a justified.  If the vacine stopped the rate of transmission by a good amount then I'd have it done in a heart beat.  I'm not an anti vader by a long stretch.  I just remember the government saying early on the the risk benefit isn't there for younger people.  What's changed?  Genuine question
		
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My daughter is coming up to 5 - I won’t be taking her to get the vaccine 

She has had the virus twice now and both times it was a mild cold


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I agree that this is an individual choice and support any parent who looks at the arguments and makes a decision, whatever way they go. It would be good if they had the facts to do so. Not quite so keen on the adamant refusals.

One factor that plays into this is the commission/omission paradox. People are much less likely to take an active step - get a vaccine - that could cause harm than they are to act passively and expose themselves to risk or harm. If you get a vaccine, and it causes a side effect, you did it and it was your choice, but if you just catch Covid, that isn't really your fault, it was bad luck, always going to happen eventually etc etc.

The JCVI have been behaving oddly on Covid vaccines, and appear to be influenced by factors outside the science. There is good evidence that vaccines reduce transmission, on both ends of the give and get side of transmission. Because the vaccine reduces the amount of viral replication, it must also reduce the amount of virus for onward transmission, and if someone is vaccinated they are less likely to get a clinical dose.
		
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Here's the JCVI statement wrt 5-11 yr-olds. https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...accination-of-children-aged-5-to-11-years-old


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## Foxholer (Feb 17, 2022)

drdel said:



			I'd have thought it would help reduce 'R'.
		
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That's why I'm in favour of vaccination of 5-11 yr-olds. Though I appreciate the actual decision is up to the parents.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 17, 2022)

I’m really glad my lad is grown up and I’m not facing the decision some of you are as parents of young kids over the covid vaccine.

My lad was in the age bracket a few years back when there was the scandal over the mmr vaccine and it was not a nice position to be in.

We all do what we firmly believe is the right decision for our Child and it is taken with the best intent and love.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			I'm not an* anti vader* by a long stretch.
		
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I find your lack of faith disturbing...



(sorry)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			The rule of masks outside in public places was dropped just over a week ago. Just done a supermarket run. Only 1 person without a mask outside, and full compliance inside the supermarket.
		
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Mask wearing indoors in supermarkets, shops etc dropping off rapidly in previously super compliant leafy Surrey. And basically now non-existent in the clubhouse. Well that’s it all over then and we are back to normal. Would be nice to think that and it were true…


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## WGCRider (Feb 18, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Whatever, they are still lives, and as Ethan says there is a choice that can be made to make them avoidable.
		
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100% this.

Still, I suppose on that goodbye video call to grandma she be comforted when she's told that there was only a 90 in 1000000 chance she ended up in hospital. Besides, little Freya really doesn't like needles.


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## WGCRider (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m really glad my lad is grown up and I’m not facing the decision some of you are as parents of young kids over the covid vaccine.

My lad was in the age bracket a few years back when there was the scandal over the mmr vaccine and it was not a nice position to be in.

We all do what we firmly believe is the right decision for our Child and it is taken with the best intent and love.
		
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It really isn't that hard - every year kids get the flu vaccine at school. There's no uproar about that. This is no different.


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## Slime (Feb 18, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Mask wearing indoors in supermarkets, shops etc dropping off rapidly in previously super compliant leafy Surrey.* And basically now non-existent in the clubhouse. Well that’s it all over then and we are back to normal. Would be nice to think that and it were true…
		
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Try Sainsburys in Godalming, still 85/90% mask wearing.
Farnham is obviously the home of the non-compliant!


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			It really isn't that hard - every year kids get the flu vaccine at school. There's no uproar about that. This is no different.
		
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They have a choice to have the flu vaccine. You’re right it is no different


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## D-S (Feb 18, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mask wearing indoors in supermarkets, shops etc dropping off rapidly in previously super compliant leafy Surrey. And basically now non-existent in the clubhouse. Well that’s it all over then and we are back to normal. Would be nice to think that and it were true…
		
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Being masked in a fully masked supermarket is in no way 100% protection from contracting COVID., no doubt it is a step in the right direction but not foolproof.


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## hovis (Feb 18, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			It really isn't that hard - every year kids get the flu vaccine at school. There's no uproar about that. This is no different.
		
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Well, it is a bit different isn't it. Flu shots have been around for years.  We know alot about them.  We know nothing about any potential long term effects of covid vaccines.  Like I said before, I happy to be a lab rat but not my child.  I'm open to be told otherwise. I just want more information than what's currently out there


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			It really isn't that hard - every year kids get the flu vaccine at school. There's no uproar about that. This is no different.
		
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Everyone is different, kids are different, not everything is a simple as you like to make out.


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## bobmac (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			We know nothing about any potential long term effects of covid vaccines.  Like I said before, I happy to be a lab rat but not my child.  I'm open to be told otherwise. I just want more information than what's currently out there
		
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*''COVID-19 vaccine technologies have been studied for years and used in other treatments without issue.''*

_https://www.muhealth.org/our-storie...d-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects_


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2022)

Are all those pro vaccinating kids, parents of school age children? If so, I respect your choice. If not, thanks for your input 🤣🤣🤣


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## WGCRider (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			Well, it is a bit different isn't it. Flu shots have been around for years.  We know alot about them.  We know nothing about any potential long term effects of covid vaccines.  Like I said before, I happy to be a lab rat but not my child.  I'm open to be told otherwise. I just want more information than what's currently out there
		
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Nope - Flu vaccine is different every single year


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			It really isn't that hard - every year kids get the flu vaccine at school. There's no uproar about that. This is no different.
		
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This is very different.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			Well, it is a bit different isn't it. Flu shots have been around for years.  We know alot about them.  We know nothing about any potential long term effects of covid vaccines.  Like I said before, I happy to be a lab rat but not my child.  I'm open to be told otherwise. I just want more information than what's currently out there
		
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Its good that Parents didn't have that attitude when vaccines for things like Smallpox and Polio were first used, there would have been so many more children struck down by them.   Of course it's a parents responsibility to make the decision for their children but hopefully they have weighed up the risk factors between possible effects of a vaccine and the virus.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



*Its good that Parents didn't have that attitude when vaccines for things like Smallpox and Polio were first used, there would have been so many more children struck down by them.*   Of course it's a parents responsibility to make the decision for their children but hopefully they have weighed up the risk factors between possible effects of a vaccine and the virus.
		
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A very very different outcome though from those diseases comared to covid for the child though


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Its good that Parents didn't have that attitude when vaccines for things like Smallpox and Polio were first used, there would have been so many more children struck down by them.   Of course it's a parents responsibility to make the decision for their children but hopefully they have weighed up the risk factors between possible effects of a vaccine and the virus.
		
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This doesn’t help! There were still side effects from Smallpox and Polio vaccines including deaths, not all parents were keen or actually had their children vaccinated.
Why not simply respect those parents in their choice in looking after their children.


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## SaintHacker (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I’m really glad my lad is grown up and I’m not facing the decision some of you are as parents of young kids over the covid vaccine.

My lad was in the age bracket a few years back when there was the scandal over the mmr vaccine and it was not a nice position to be in.

We all do what we firmly believe is the right decision for our Child and it is taken with the best intent and love.
		
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Same here. My kids are teens now, they have been vacc'd but it was their choice. We too were hesitant about the mmr but they've had it with no ill effects. If I had a little one I'm not sure if i would be getting them jabbed against covid just yet, glad I don't haveto make that decision.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 18, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Are all those pro vaccinating kids, parents of school age children? If so, I respect your choice. If not, thanks for your input 🤣🤣🤣
		
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My daughter will be 5 soon. We haven't decided yet 

But then look at the vaccine history , I had AZ early doors due to a health condition. Then when I came to have My second the blood clots had been found and they had been removed from my age group (under 40) as an option .. tbh scared me but I had My second 

I don't know how I feel about my daughter yet , what's to say in 5 months it's deemed not safe


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			This doesn’t help! There were still side effects from Smallpox and Polio vaccines including deaths, not all parents were keen or actually had their children vaccinated.
Why not simply respect those parents in their choice in looking after their children.
		
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Did you read my last sentence.


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## BiMGuy (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Its good that Parents didn't have that attitude when vaccines for things like Smallpox and Polio were first used, there would have been so many more children struck down by them.   Of course it's a parents responsibility to make the decision for their children but hopefully they have weighed up the risk factors between possible effects of a vaccine and the virus.
		
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We didn’t have the benefit of Social Media which allows people to share their expertise with the world back than.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Are all those pro vaccinating kids, parents of school age children? If so, I respect your choice. If not, thanks for your input 🤣🤣🤣
		
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I'm not any more, at least as far as I know.  But I have been and my view would have been the same then as now.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 18, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'm not any more, at least as far as I know.  But I have been and that would have been my view would have been the same.
		
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With the greatest respect it's easy to say that now but then you might have been more uneasy 

It's impossible to say 100%.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you read my last sentence.
		
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Yes! And it was loaded!


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			With the greatest respect it's easy to say that now but then you might have been more uneasy

It's impossible to say 100%.
		
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I can assure you, my attitude would have been the same!


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			Well, it is a bit different isn't it. Flu shots have been around for years.  We know alot about them.  We know nothing about any potential long term effects of covid vaccines.  Like I said before, I happy to be a lab rat but not my child.  I'm open to be told otherwise. I just want more information than what's currently out there
		
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Hmm, so because flu vaccine has been about for X number of years, it is ok.
But the Covid one isn't.?
"We know a lot about them "
Do we, or do 'they'?
It seems time is your only yardstick.
That being the case, at what point  ( how many years) before it will be OK 
for Covid vaccine?
Which supposes that if you and your child had been a couple of years away from the introduction of the flu vaccine, you wouldn't have permitted that either.?
And, why should we not believe that you consider everyone who is refusing  the vaccine is being wise?


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2022)

Let me explain why, in my opinion, flu is different.

Firstly, we are in a very different place with the evolution of immunity to flu. Over the century since Spanish flu, the population that haven't died from it slowly built up a multi-layered and flexible immunity to flu. That was a mixture of vaccination and exposure. That means that flu weeded out the weaker, and the rest developed immunity that could adapt to each year's new version. The elderly are less able to maintain that, and are more vulnerable to being tipped over into serious illness by the flu. Now and again a bad version come around and tests the quality of that population immunity. Flu also has, arguably, a more limited range of variants, tending to cycle between several specific combinations of surface antigens (usually described as HxNy). Covid appears to have a much larger range of variability. 

Even so, with time, the same situation may develop with Covid, and maybe in a generation, people don't even think of Covid unless granny gets ill. 

But we are not even close to being there yet.

Secondly, Covid is a nastier disease than influenza. The respiratory bit may be roughly similar, although despite attempts by some to characterise it as a disease of very old people, it affects younger people too. 

But Covid has a sting in the tail, and that is systemic (whole body) inflammatory effects. Those include the cytokine storm that can kick in after a week or so, but also can cause longer term damage, including asymptomatic effects in people some of whom do not even know they were infected. There is a potential time-bomb quiet growing.


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Are all those pro vaccinating kids, parents of school age children? If so, I respect your choice. If not, thanks for your input 🤣🤣🤣
		
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I think that is a rather narrow perspective. Do you ignore your doctor if they don't have kids of your kids' age?

I have a 12 and 14 year old, both boys, so they have a higher risk of myocarditis as an adverse event with mRNA vaccines than younger kids or girls of the same age, and both have been vaxxed.


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## hovis (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Its good that Parents didn't have that attitude when vaccines for things like Smallpox and Polio were first used, there would have been so many more children struck down by them.   Of course it's a parents responsibility to make the decision for their children but hopefully they have weighed up the risk factors between possible effects of a vaccine and the virus.
		
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But of a silly comparison really. Those things you mention had serious consequences if not vacinated against.  Covid is nothing to the overwhelming majority of children


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Yes! And it was loaded!
		
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'Loaded'!  Explain what was loaded about suggesting parents weigh up the risks and benefits 🙄


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## hovis (Feb 18, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Hmm, so because flu vaccine has been about for X number of years, it is ok.
But the Covid one isn't.?
E]
		
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Erm, yeh!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			But of a silly comparison really. Those things you mention had serious consequences if not vacinated against.  Covid is nothing to the overwhelming majority of children
		
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Nothing!     Really.


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## hovis (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Nothing!     Really.
		
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Doing a quick Google search I see that 3 children my daughters age range have died of covid this year.  Yeh I'd say that's nothing


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			We didn’t have the benefit of Social Media which allows people to share their expertise with the world back than.
		
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Share their unsubstantiated opinions that are void of facts more like.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			Doing a quick Google search I see that 3 children my daughters age range have died of covid this year.  Yeh I'd say that's nothing
		
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Read Ethan's posts that explain the real potential for serious health issues long term.  I don't call that 'Nothing'  and I'd take his views over yours anyday.


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2022)

Like Groundhog Day 

Maybe it’s time to move on now and to potentially close the thread to allow that process to happen


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## Leftitshort (Feb 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I think that is a rather narrow perspective. Do you ignore your doctor if they don't have kids of your kids' age?

I have a 12 and 14 year old, both boys, so they have a higher risk of myocarditis as an adverse event with mRNA vaccines than younger kids or girls of the same age, and both have been vaxxed.
		
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Same boat. That was my issue. From what I could see the risks outweighed any benefits. The info i read when it was first suggested, indicated there was an increased risk in teenage boys. It was their choice however and most of their peers have been jabbed. 
I’d clearly take on a drs opinion, and respect yours, but I don’t believe the other fellas are suitably qualified. Maybe we should break it too them? 

I do slightly resent being told to vaccinate my kids against a disease they’ve both had, with hardly any symptoms. Just to placate teaching unions & allow some pensioners to feel safe in tescos.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			But of a silly comparison really. Those things you mention had serious consequences if not vacinated against.  Covid is nothing to the overwhelming majority of children
		
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In the short term perhaps. But have you also considered the long term effects - as per Ethan's earlier post?


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## hovis (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Read Ethan's posts that explain the real potential for serious health issues long term.  I don't call that 'Nothing'  and I'd take his views over yours anyday.
		
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That's fine.  Crack on with what you gotta do.  I've read Ethan's post and (no disrespect to eithan) it's full of "may" "maybe" "it could".  There's plenty of stories out there with how adults are suffering with long term effects of covid.  Hardly anything about children aged 7.  The fact that the government own "specialist" said the risk rewards for the vacine get higher as the age group lowers is enough for me to pay attention and get the necessary information before I make a decision on vaccinating my daughter. that's up to me.  If you want to be a sheep and do as your told (like I did with my vacine). Then that's fine too

As someone else just posted, I can help but think this is to appease teachers and unions


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## road2ruin (Feb 18, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			100% this.

Still, I suppose on that goodbye video call to grandma she be comforted when she's told that there was only a 90 in 1000000 chance she ended up in hospital. Besides, little Freya really doesn't like needles.
		
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Got nothing to do with needles. 

If the science was clear then there would be a clearer mandate to vaccinate children. It’s being given as a choice so I don’t see who you are to try and guilt trip anyone into doing it. 

My daughters health is more important to me than a pensioner and so my decision will be based on what I think is best for her and not the benefit it might have for anyone else especially when we have a very successful vaccine which offers these people protection. 

We’ve had Covid, for my daughter it was nothing other than a 24 hour bug. The vaccine, in a fortunately very small number of cases, results in very severe adverse affects. It’s a numbers game for me, she’s had Covid, she’s healthy so why risk the vaccine when the benefits for her personally are so marginal.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			We didn’t have *the benefit of Social Media* which allows people to share their expertise with the world back than.
		
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Given the amount of mis-information that abounds on SM, I'm dubious about it really 'being a benefit'!


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Same boat. That was my issue. From what I could see the risks outweighed any benefits. The info i read when it was first suggested, indicated there was an increased risk in teenage boys. It was their choice however and most of their peers have been jabbed.
I’d clearly take on a drs opinion, and respect yours, but I don’t believe the other fellas are suitably qualified. Maybe we should break it too them?

I do slightly resent being told to vaccinate my kids against a disease they’ve both had, with hardly any symptoms. Just to placate teaching unions & allow some pensioners to feel safe in tescos.
		
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Like I said before, I respect whatever choice people make so long as they have had access to reasonably reliable information. People balance risks and benefits differently, so there is usually a valid degree of judgement and personal choice involved. If another variant comes along, that balance may change and you may choose differently.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			'Loaded'!  Explain what was loaded about suggesting parents weigh up the risks and benefits 🙄
		
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Do you not believe all on here will have done that? They are not stupid and won’t need you to tell them!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Like Groundhog Day

Maybe it’s time to move on now and to potentially close the thread to allow that process to happen
		
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I agree it can be like groundhog day, but then again there are a few threads that fall in that category.

For me there is still some worth while stuff coming through and would be a bit premature to close it.


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## adam6177 (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you not believe all on here will have done that? They are not stupid and won’t need you to tell them!
		
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Silly really that you even have to make a statement like that isn't it, but it's the way the threads been going for a while.

If you don't fall in line with the governments way thinking or their scientists views then you need re-educating and don't have a "balanced view.

I'd hope to be able to make a wide spread generalisation about people on here, that we all love our kids to the end and would do anything to protect them. We make informed decisions with the information we have available and take nothing lightly.

Unfortunately this thread has gone the way of the Brexit thread. Militant ideas intertwined with point scoring and belittling comments.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Do you not believe all on here will have done that? They are not stupid and won’t need you to tell them!
		
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Some on here don't appear to be doing that based on probabilities and medical advice.  Of course they don't need me to tell them, it would be much better if they listened carefully to the medical experts as I have previously suggested.  As I have also mentioned and you seem to want to ignore, it's ultimately their decision.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Silly really that you even have to make a statement like that isn't it, but it's the way the threads been going for a while.

If you don't fall in line with the governments way thinking or their scientists views then you need re-educating and don't have a "balanced view.

I'd hope to be able to make a wide spread generalisation about people on here, that we all love our kids to the end and would do anything to protect them. We make informed decisions with the information we have available and take nothing lightly.

Unfortunately this thread has gone the way of the Brexit thread. Militant ideas intertwined with point scoring and belittling comments.
		
Click to expand...

That's so ironic.


----------



## BiMGuy (Feb 18, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Given the amount of mis-information that abounds on SM, I'm dubious about it really 'being a benefit'!
		
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I was being sarcastic!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Like Groundhog Day

Maybe it’s time to move on now and to potentially close the thread to allow that process to happen
		
Click to expand...

Certainly getting like Groundhog Day with you and a few others posting that others shouldn't debate on this thread.     Can't you just keep away from it if it offends you!


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## DanFST (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Certainly getting like Groundhog Day with you and a few others posting that others shouldn't debate on this thread.     Can't you just keep away from it if it offends you!
		
Click to expand...

Can you just post something worthwhile, or at least a question?


----------



## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			I was being sarcastic!
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but hard to tell from pure text! 
I'd suggest you consider using Emojis in future.


----------



## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Can you just post something worthwhile, or at least a question?
		
Click to expand...

Ditto.   Also the same advice to you as LP.


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## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Like Groundhog Day

Maybe it’s time to move on now and to potentially close the thread to allow that process to happen
		
Click to expand...

Bit like discussing Liverpool on the footie thread…

 But you’re right, some subjects like how good masks might be came around for the nth time recently. There’s been several postings of scientific and technical links on the size of the virus and the size of the holes in a decent mask that all of the anti-maskers refuse to accept - guess they’re all called Karen.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

hovis said:



			Doing a quick Google search I see that 3 children my daughters age range have died of covid this year.  Yeh I'd say that's nothing
		
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Statistically perhaps. But I doubt any of their family or friends would feel the same!


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Certainly getting like Groundhog Day with you and a few others posting that others shouldn't debate on this thread.     Can't you just keep away from it if it offends you!
		
Click to expand...

The issue is any meaningful discussion and facts and info that some could provide get drowned out by you -in the exact same way with all the politics thread , we know your stance , every single day you point fingers at those that want to look at moving on  and now it’s about people and their judgments towards their own children. 

Your relentless attitude towards others ruined political discussions to the point it was banned - the same is happening here


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## road2ruin (Feb 18, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Statistically perhaps. But I doubt any of their family or friends would feel the same!
		
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I don't think anyone is belittling the death of those 3 children or any of the Covid deaths but the younger you get the less clear it is re. the vaccine and the risk of Covid itself. 

The argument has generally been that whilst the new variant is less deadly a small number of a much larger number was still a considerable and likely to put the NHS under greater stretch etc. Very, very few children go into hospital so this argument isn't relevant as much and so to start suggesting that children are going to be the reason that grandma dies are, quite frankly, ridiculous. That's not aimed at you btw.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The issue is any meaningful discussion and facts and info that some could provide get drowned out by you -in the exact same way with all the politics thread , we know your stance , every single day you point fingers at those that want to look at moving on  and now it’s about people and their judgments towards their own children.

Your relentless attitude towards others ruined political discussions to the point it was banned - the same is happening here
		
Click to expand...

Twaddle!
It's ok for people to have views that align with your own but if they are contrary they are drowning out discussion.  I post once on my view regarding children's vaccinations and you consider that's not meaningful discussion. People have posted their reasons for not having their children vaccinated, that's fine but they must be prepared to have them challenged on a forum.

As I suggested, if you don't like this thread then don't use it, your continual attempts at being sanctimonious is somewhat comical.


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## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!
It's ok for people to have views that align with your own but if they are contrary they are drowning out discussion.  I post once on my view regarding children's vaccinations and you consider that's not meaningful discussion. People have posted their reasons for not having their children vaccinated, that's fine but they must be prepared to have them challenged on a forum.

As I suggested, if you don't like this thread then don't use it, your continual attempts at being sanctimonious is somewhat comical.
		
Click to expand...

Pot and kettle


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think anyone is belittling the death of those 3 children or any of the Covid deaths but the younger you get the less clear it is re. the vaccine and the risk of Covid itself.

The argument has generally been that whilst the new variant is less deadly a small number of a much larger number was still a considerable and likely to put the NHS under greater stretch etc. Very, very few children go into hospital so this argument isn't relevant as much and so to start suggesting that children are going to be the reason that grandma dies are, quite frankly, ridiculous. That's not aimed at you btw.
		
Click to expand...

My daughter has had it twice , raised temp first time , but then a little running nose the second time. It’s already horrific for her to get the flu nasal spray 

And whilst as adults we can make our own judgments I’m making a judgment for my daughter that she won’t be having the vaccine right now


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I don't think anyone is belittling the death of those 3 children or any of the Covid deaths 
...
		
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I should hope it was simply 'badly worded'.


road2ruin said:



			...Very, very few children go into hospital so this argument isn't relevant as much... and so to start suggesting that children are going to be the reason that grandma dies are, quite frankly, ridiculous. That's not aimed at you btw.
		
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I agree that this goal has been achieved. Living with Covid is now/will become the strategy soon, if it's not already. Minimising spread, (especially) to the vulnerable should now be strategy. Vaccination of potential spreaders, especially in 'spreading' environments like schools should be a priority imo.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Pot and kettle
		
Click to expand...

I'm not asking for the thread to be closed or suggesting people shouldn't have a contrary view to mine.  I've also explained how ultimately it's up to the parents to decide on vaccinations.  What's Pot and Kettle about that?


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## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not asking for the thread to be closed or suggesting people shouldn't have a contrary view to mine.  I've also explained how ultimately it's up to the parents to decide on vaccinations.  What's Pot and Kettle about that?
		
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Maybe you should reread what you’ve posted towards those parents that have chosen not to have their children vaccinated. You come across as arrogant and superior in your attitude towards them.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you should reread what you’ve posted towards those parents that have chosen not to have their children vaccinated. You come across as arrogant and superior in your attitude towards them.
		
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Maybe you should reread what I've posted without bias.  I've suggested it's important for parents to weigh the pros and cons of vaccination risk verses the risks of Covid.  I've also said ultimately it's them that have to decide.

My view has been challenged by some which is fine and I've defended it.  If you consider that as arrogant and superior then that's your prerogative but look at your own comments also.


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## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe you should reread what I've posted without bias.  I've suggested it's important for parents to weigh the pros and cons of vaccination risk verses the risks of Covid.  I've also said ultimately it's them that have to decide.

My view has been challenged by some which is fine and I've defended it.  If you consider that as arrogant and superior then that's your prerogative but look at your own comments also.
		
Click to expand...

I have reread your posts. Post 25,699, to name one, is arrogant. If you don’t like that assessment, tough.


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## road2ruin (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Twaddle!
It's ok for people to have views that align with your own but if they are contrary they are drowning out discussion.  I post once on my view regarding children's vaccinations and you consider that's not meaningful discussion. People have posted their reasons for not having their children vaccinated, that's fine but they *must be prepared to have them challenged *on a forum.
		
Click to expand...

I have absolutely no issue with being challenged and when you express views on a public forum it should be expected. I do have issues with certain posters suggesting that a decision I and others have made is the reason that 'grandma will die'. Ultimately though that says more about them as a person and it's not an argument that is suddenly going to change my mind. Other things in the future might well change my mind on the decision so we'll see what happens in the coming months.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Pot and kettle
		
Click to expand...

Which one is which though! Pair of pots seem to be more likely to me!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I have absolutely no issue with being challenged and when you express views on a public forum it should be expected. I do have issues with certain posters *suggesting that a decision I and others have made is the reason that 'grandma will die'*. Ultimately though that says more about them as a person and it's not an argument that is suddenly going to change my mind. Other things in the future might well change my mind on the decision so we'll see what happens in the coming months.
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say that


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I have reread your posts. Post 25,699, to name one, is arrogant. If you don’t like that assessment, tough.
		
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I've re-read it and it's fine.  It gives a view and accepts the parents are the ones to decide.   If you consider that arrogant then 'Tough'


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## Hobbit (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've re-read it and it's fine.  It gives a view and accepts the parents are the ones to decide.   If you consider that arrogant then 'Tough'
		
Click to expand...


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## road2ruin (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Where did I say that
		
Click to expand...

You didn't, apologies, I meant other posters on here.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:





Click to expand...

🙄


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			I have reread your posts. Post 25,699, to name one, is arrogant. If you don’t like that assessment, tough.
		
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Hardly a great example! That description could apply to so many posts/posters, including, no doubt, mine and yours. In fact, it seems to me your post above shows more arrogance than SR's one you point to.

But let's get back to discussing the topic/posts rather than abusing the posters!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Hardly a great example! That description could apply to so many posts/posters, including, no doubt, mine and yours. In fact, it seems to me your post above shows more arrogance than SR's one you point to.

But let's get back to discussing the topic/posts rather than abusing the posters!
		
Click to expand...

It’s the perfect example, he replied in that post:

“Some on here *(exactly who?)* don't appear to be doing that based on probabilities and medical advice. Of course they don't need me to tell them, it would be much better if they listened carefully to the medical experts *(who has said they haven’t?)* as I have previously suggested *(who’s he to suggest and why should they take any notice?)*. As I have also mentioned and you seem to want to ignore, it's ultimately their decision.”*(and nothing to do with him or anyone else)*


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s the perfect example, he replied in that post:

“Some on here *(exactly who?)* don't appear to be doing that based on probabilities and medical advice. Of course they don't need me to tell them, it would be much better if they listened carefully to the medical experts *(who has said they haven’t?)* as I have previously suggested *(who’s he to suggest and why should they take any notice?)*. As I have also mentioned and you seem to want to ignore, it's ultimately their decision.”*(and nothing to do with him or anyone else)*

Click to expand...

For crying out load! are you trying hard to be difficult.  I made it clear numerous times it's the parents decision on whether they have it or not. Why do you continue to ignore that.

I also suggested they need to weigh up the risks on both sides, those of the vaccine and those of Covid.  You are asking who am I to suggest that, I'll tell you who I am to suggest it: A member of this Forum just like you who is discussing the subject matter, who are you to suggest I shouldn't do that.

I put it to you as well as some others that your objections are purely personal due to us having previous disagreements and as such are rather pathetic.


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## Foxholer (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			It’s the perfect example, he replied in that post:

“Some on here *(exactly who?)* don't appear to be doing that based on probabilities and medical advice. Of course they don't need me to tell them, it would be much better if they listened carefully to the medical experts *(who has said they haven’t?)* as I have previously suggested *(who’s he to suggest and why should they take any notice?)*. As I have also mentioned and you seem to want to ignore, it's ultimately their decision.”*(and nothing to do with him or anyone else)*

Click to expand...


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## drdel (Feb 18, 2022)

Anybody else think we have gone down this particular blind alley for too long?


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2022)

drdel said:



			Anybody else think we have gone down this particular blind alley for too long?
		
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Yep - we certainly have hence why I said it’s prob time to move on now


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## SatchFan (Feb 18, 2022)

Popped to my local Sainsbury’s yesterday afternoon for a few extras. Quite busy which I put down to pre-Eunice panic. Almost 100% mask compliance which, whatever the alleged health benefits are, means people are still very keen not to get COVID.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			For crying out load! are you trying hard to be difficult.  I made it clear numerous times it's the parents decision on whether they have it or not. Why do you continue to ignore that.

I also suggested they need to weigh up the risks on both sides, those of the vaccine and those of Covid.  You are asking who am I to suggest that, I'll tell you who I am to suggest it: A member of this Forum just like you who is discussing the subject matter, who are you to suggest I shouldn't do that.

I put it to you as well as some others that your objections are purely personal due to us having previous disagreements and as such are rather pathetic.
		
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You are not listening and it is not personal, but no surprise to see you playing thst card!

Your first paragraph is were you should of stopped.

You don’t need to suggest anything, these are all intelligent people who are looking after their children!!

Suggesting it and continuing to question them is treating them like idiots and that they aren’t correct in their decision.

So you saying it’s the parents decision isn’t how your posts read.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			You are not listening and it is not personal, but no surprise to see you playing thst card!

Your first paragraph is were you should of stopped.

You don’t need to suggest anything, these are all intelligent people who are looking after their children!!

Suggesting it and continuing to question them is treating them like idiots and that they aren’t correct in their decision.

So you saying it’s the parents decision isn’t how your posts read.
		
Click to expand...

I've explained very clearly what I said and what the intention was.  I am finished with the matter now and won't reply again on it.  You need to do the same as we've both made our points and it's now going nowhere.
Let's move on.


----------



## ExRabbit (Feb 18, 2022)




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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I've explained very clearly what I said and what the intention was.  I am finished with the matter now and won't reply again on it.  You need to do the same as we've both made our points and it's now going nowhere.
Let's move on.
		
Click to expand...

But still not willing to answer the questions in bold in post #25726, especially the people you’re pointing fingers at, “Some on here don't appear to be doing that based on probabilities and medical advice.”

Who are the “Some on here” as that accusation is insulting to them as parents.


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## Ethan (Feb 18, 2022)

drdel said:



			Anybody else think we have gone down this particular blind alley for too long?
		
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Errr, I said that quite recently and you rebuked me for doing so.


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## drdel (Feb 18, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Errr, I said that quite recently and you rebuked me for doing so.
		
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If  that's right I stand judged.- petard duly hung

My post was with regards the bickering/argument about kids jabs which IMO is an entirely personal issue.


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## SteveW86 (Feb 18, 2022)

drdel said:



			If  that's right I stand judged.- petard duly hung

My post was with regards the bickering/argument about kids jabs which IMO is an entirely personal issue.
		
Click to expand...

As the thread starter, I’m pretty sure you could just ask for the thread to be closed/deleted.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 18, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			But still not willing to answer the questions in bold in post #25726, especially the people you’re pointing fingers at, “Some on here don't appear to be doing that based on probabilities and medical advice.”

Who are the “Some on here” as that accusation is insulting to them as parents.
		
Click to expand...

Please move on.


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## SteveW86 (Feb 18, 2022)

Kaz said:



			He doesn't even need to ask - delete the opening post and the whole thread goes bye bye
		
Click to expand...

Just imagine the chaos


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## Italian outcast (Feb 18, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Just imagine the chaos
		
Click to expand...

"Coronavirus Thread deletion - how is it/has it affected you?"


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 18, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Just imagine the chaos
		
Click to expand...

Don’t think Fragger would be please but it was slightly amusing to see it just vanish 😂


----------



## Billysboots (Feb 18, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don’t think Fragger would be please but it was slightly amusing to see it just vanish 😂
		
Click to expand...

It would be the classic mercy killing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 18, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you should reread what you’ve posted towards those parents that have chosen not to have their children vaccinated. You come across as arrogant and superior in your attitude towards them.
		
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It amazes me that when someone defends their opinion, there are some who consider it arrogant etc. 
if an opinion is contradicted by facts, then most on here , I hope and think, will acknowledge that they were wrong. But it isn't arrogant to continue to  debate and stick to your opinion where it isn't prov d to be wrong ( or right).
By definition, this place is where we can and do air opinions. Why get upset at it happening?
No one is forced to be here reading threads.


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## drdel (Feb 18, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			As the thread starter, I’m pretty sure you could just ask for the thread to be closed/deleted.
		
Click to expand...

I have no idea where the majority for closing the thread or not would fall: so I don't think it's my call.

I agree it has rather had some twists and turns but I think the moderators rightly have the control of the guillotine.


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## SteveW86 (Feb 18, 2022)

drdel said:



			I have no idea where the majority for closing the thread or not would fall: so I don't think it's my call.

I agree it has rather had some twists and turns but I think the moderators rightly have the control of the guillotine.
		
Click to expand...

We should have a poll: Keep the thread, yes or no.


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## bobmac (Feb 19, 2022)

Don't close it, I haven't found out what happened to the ? yet


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## PhilTheFragger (Feb 19, 2022)

It’s definitely staying open…….

If only to keep the argumentative posters in one place 🙄🤭


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 19, 2022)

hovis said:



			Erm, yeh!!!!
		
Click to expand...

So you ignore the rest of my post, so we'll stick with this bit, ok

Which says that you had jabs of a vaccine you believe is not Ok, I.e. not  safe

(Edit...Saw an earlier post)


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## D-S (Feb 19, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some early data from Japan showing that in lab tests, the new BA.2 variant of omicron is both more contagious and more pathogenic than the currently prevalent BA.1 variant. It also appears to be potentially more vaccine resistant.

There was a news story earlier this week in which a leading UK virologist reminded us that viruses do not necessarily get less virulent with evolution, a point I have made here before.
		
Click to expand...

An interesting thread on this Variant.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495004839411081218


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## Ethan (Feb 19, 2022)

D-S said:



			An interesting thread on this Variant.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1495004839411081218

Click to expand...

That data cites a 3.5% admission rate, which is much higher than the rate in the UK (or anywhere else, probably). SA has a very different population, with a lot of background risk factor differences, including HIV, which could affect response. I would like to see UK data. On the face of it BA.2 has some "technical" advantages over BA.1. Whether those translate into clinical differences is an important question.

But the other point is that Covid will not necessarily get less virulent with evolution. There is no evolutionary pressure on it to do so.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2022)

Just saw this mornings news, were it is confirmed self isolation will end in England next week.

That should add another 40 pages to this thread before tomorrow  

To save us time, perhaps it would be best to just copy and paste the last 40 pages?


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## drdel (Feb 20, 2022)

It's quite amusing to note that people keep posting yet demand the thread's removal.

Unlike School: 'reading and writing' aren't compulsory on here


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 20, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s definitely staying open…….

*If only to keep the argumentative posters in one place* 🙄🤭
		
Click to expand...

And there's the issue; like the political threads, it's not the subject...


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## DanFST (Feb 20, 2022)

drdel said:



			It's quite amusing to note that people keep posting yet demand the thread's removal.

Unlike School: 'reading and writing' aren't compulsory on here

Click to expand...

Apparently so, I couldn't find a single post demanding removal. Can you quote one?


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## AmandaJR (Feb 20, 2022)

I'm back to exam invigilating this coming week for the first time since Covid. So clearly I am feeling more confident about returning to something like normality, albeit a different one to that which we had before (will wear a mask and sanitise hands regularly etc). I'm in the sports hall so anything up to 180 students - had a moments panic about the "risk" yesterday but will do my best to mitigate and am triple jabbed...


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## drdel (Feb 20, 2022)

DanFST said:



			Apparently so, I couldn't find a single post demanding removal. Can you quote one?
		
Click to expand...

#25738 and 'random irritations'


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## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2022)

Admissions in England down (to 900) and overall on last week's values, with usual 'it's a weekend' caveat. Storms could well be affecting figures, both actual hospitalisations and reporting of stats, too. No values for Scotland for last 4 days; only England values today.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Admissions in England down (to 900) and overall on last week's values, with usual 'it's a weekend' caveat. Storms could well be affecting figures, both actual hospitalisations and reporting of stats, too. No values for Scotland for last 4 days; only England values today.
		
Click to expand...

Which means what exactly?


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## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Which means what exactly?
		
Click to expand...

See this document https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare. Patients admitted to hospital section; By Country; 1 month chart.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2022)

Quoting Lord Farquaad in Shrek…”Some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I am willing to take”.

…unfortunately seems to be a fairly widespread point of view in a UK society that purports to be caring and considerate.

Its not mine though, for personal reasons in its impact changes will have on me, and so I’d like to hear the views of Professor Sir Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance on any announcement that is made…but I suspect that that will not be forthcoming.   I will be delighted if I do, and hopefully reassured.


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## Imurg (Feb 20, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Reports that self isolation after a positive test will be scrapped down south? Sounds insane. I’m struggling to believe that’s going to happen...
		
Click to expand...

Believe it Girl....We're on the Freedom Train out of Restriction City......what could possibly go wrong


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 20, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Reports that self isolation after a positive test will be scrapped down south? Sounds insane. I’m struggling to believe that’s going to happen...
		
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People will just stop taking tests and when they feel ill with the will be asked to self isolate and be off sick etc -it’s the big step towards treating the virus like other illnesses


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## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2022)

Kaz said:



			Reports that self isolation after a positive test will be scrapped down south? Sounds insane. I’m struggling to believe that’s going to happen...
		
Click to expand...

Won't be just down south. Whatever happens down here is followed by the rest of GB. Whether its right or wrong, who knows.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			See this document https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare. Patients admitted to hospital section; By Country; 1 month chart.
		
Click to expand...

Which means…..?


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## Foxholer (Feb 20, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Which means…..?
		
Click to expand...

If you can't work it out, there's little point explaining it to you!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 20, 2022)

My concern is if there is no need to self isolate if you test positive, what effect that will have working in areas like ICU, both the other staff members but especially the patients. I would prefer some form of isolation for staff and perhaps a return as now after two negative LFT's to add a layer of protection. It won't happen of course so I am nervous


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			And there's the issue; like the political threads, it's not the subject... 

Click to expand...

You could add football to that as well. 👍


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## hovis (Feb 20, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			My concern is if there is no need to self isolate if you test positive, what effect that will have working in areas like ICU, both the other staff members but especially the patients. I would prefer some form of isolation for staff and perhaps a return as now after two negative LFT's to add a layer of protection. It won't happen of course so I am nervous
		
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If you don't need to self isolate why would you be tested?  I forsee many people walking the streets with Covid thinking they have a sniffle and not testing


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			If you don't need to self isolate why would you be tested?  I forsee many people walking the streets with Covid thinking they have a sniffle and not testing
		
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I believe testing will end to save money.   The real problem will be more of what Homer is suggesting, also infected people taking the virus into places like care homes.  I do understand that many want to get back to normal but with infection rates still higher than the point where plan B was activated it seems rather concerning.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe testing will end to save money.   The real problem will be more of what Homer is suggesting, also infected people taking the virus into places like care homes.  I do understand that many want to get back to normal but with infection rates still higher than the point where plan B was activated it seems rather concerning.
		
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I suspect most care homes will continue for a while yet for visitors to test before coming in, staff to test regularly. My wife goes in to visit her mum and she needs to show a negative test from that day and has to see her in full PPE still. They aren't going to just drop all restrictions from next week.

As for other places..............................


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 20, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People will just stop taking tests and when they feel ill with the will be asked to self isolate and be off sick etc -it’s the big step towards treating the virus like other illnesses
		
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This is from a BBC Health correspondent analysis report on PMs latest comment re Covid
"Despite the huge number of Covid infections this winter, the overall numbers of deaths have remained in line with what we would normally see at this time of year.
That suggests Covid is no longer an exceptional threat so it is understandable the exceptional response taken to manage the virus should be reviewed. Covid will now have to compete with other spending priorities."

Also this...." Only around half of people who are infected come forward for testing and so are never asked to isolate. Of those that do, a fifth admit to not adhering fully to the isolation guidance.  
Leaving it to the public to exercise their judgement about when they should stay at home may not have as big an impact as assumed."

It seems to me that these "facts" are the reasoning behind the latest decisions, and if they are true ( seems the chairman of BMA thinks differently, ahem) then I can see the pressures involved.

Nevertheless, I still think a couple of months would be worth waiting for.
Hopefully, enough people will behave responsibly and cautiously for some while yet🤔


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I suspect most care homes will continue for a while yet for visitors to test before coming in, staff to test regularly. My wife goes in to visit her mum and she needs to show a negative test from that day and has to see her in full PPE still. They aren't going to just drop all restrictions from next week.

As for other places..............................
		
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I do hope you're right.


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2022)

A bit of a warning from Denmark.
The first country to lift restrictions

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/denmark-h...after-lifting-all-restrictions-172922608.html


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

Get well soon your Maj


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2022)

Health Sec. and Chancellor having differing views on cost/benefit of continuing all or some free testing…?

This suggests to me that the Health Sec. has been listening to such as Whitty and Vallance, and hearing what they are saying.  I can go with changes if they are supported by Whitty and Vallance, and if measures are retained or put in place for the most vulnerable and those supporting and caring for them.


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## road2ruin (Feb 21, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This suggests to me that the Health Sec. has been listening to such as Whitty and Vallance, and hearing what they are saying.  I can go with changes if they are supported by Whitty and Vallance, and if measures are retained or put in place for the most vulnerable and those supporting and caring for them.
		
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I don't know why Whitty and Vallance etc don't grow a backbone and actually come out with what their feelings are. I appreciate it probably won't go down well with those pushing against it but if they have their professional feelings on the subject just come out and say it.


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## road2ruin (Feb 21, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I don't know why Whitty and Vallance etc don't grow a backbone and actually come out with what their feelings are. I appreciate it probably won't go down well with those pushing against it but if they have their professional feelings on the subject just come out and say it.
		
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As if by magic they’re on with Boris at 7pm. Will be interesting to hear what they say.


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I don't know why Whitty and Vallance etc don't grow a backbone and actually come out with what their feelings are. I appreciate it probably won't go down well with those pushing against it but if they have their professional feelings on the subject just come out and say it.
		
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I don't think it is a matter of growing a backbone. Chris Whitty treated plenty of Covid patients on the front-line. He has plenty of courage.

But he also knows that when working in Govt (and this non-party political), you can either go along to a large degree with policy but seek to influence it at the margins and get some stuff changed or adapted, or you can go in hard and get alienated and ignored entirely and have no influence. It seems clear he has chosen the former.


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## road2ruin (Feb 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I don't think it is a matter of growing a backbone. Chris Whitty treated plenty of Covid patients on the front-line. He has plenty of courage.

But he also knows that when working in Govt (and this non-party political), you can either go along to a large degree with policy but seek to influence it at the margins and get some stuff changed or adapted, or you can go in hard and get alienated and ignored entirely and have no influence. It seems clear he has chosen the former.
		
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Possibly poorly worded, I have no doubts about his level of courage on a practical level. It just strikes me that he's pretty much being cut out of the decision making now as they've stopped saying that 'we are following the science' so I don't see how much he has to lose by coming out and saying what he thinks. I doubt he has much influence now and has been well and truly side-lined.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Possibly poorly worded, I have no doubts about his level of courage on a practical level. It just strikes me that he's pretty much being cut out of the decision making now as they've stopped saying that 'we are following the science' *so I don't see how much he has to lose by coming out and saying what he thinks.* I doubt he has much influence now and has been well and truly side-lined.
		
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Do you know what he thinks? Just asking, as your post almost implies that Whitty thinks lifting restrictions is a crazy decision. I guess we'll see tonight, but if he tends to back the decision, will you assume that he is lying to us and he actually thinks very differently?

In my opinion, I fully expect any medical expert to be on the cautious side of the scale anyway. However, if Whitty and his colleagues felt that lifting restrictions would be a disaster for the UK, I honestly don't think those restrictions would be lifted.


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you know what he thinks? Just asking, as your post almost implies that Whitty thinks lifting restrictions is a crazy decision. I guess we'll see tonight, but if he tends to back the decision, will you assume that he is lying to us and he actually thinks very differently?

In my opinion, I fully expect any medical expert to be on the cautious side of the scale anyway. However, if Whitty and his colleagues felt that lifting restrictions would be a disaster for the UK, I honestly don't think those restrictions would be lifted.
		
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The public health principles of managing a health crisis emphasise prudence and caution. Taking risks that can be avoided is not part of the game. Assuming you don't know all that is happening, and that the stuff you don't know about is mostly bad, is simply part of his culture and training.

At the start of this pandemic, Whitty made a speech in which he said that when this was all over, one of two things would happen. He would be blamed for not acting strongly enough to prevent deaths and illness, or  he would be blamed for over-reacting when there were very few deaths and illnesses. He said that he knew which one he preferred. He also pointed out, as I have done previously here too, that the task of preventing bad outcomes is very difficult to judge. You really can't titrate actions with any finesse against an unknown and unknowable threat, so the risk of being accused of over-reacting is often wrongly made by those who have no idea about how close they came to bad things happening.


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## road2ruin (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you know what he thinks? Just asking, as your post almost implies that Whitty thinks lifting restrictions is a crazy decision. I guess we'll see tonight, but if he tends to back the decision, will you assume that he is lying to us and he actually thinks very differently?

In my opinion, I fully expect any medical expert to be on the cautious side of the scale anyway. However, if Whitty and his colleagues felt that lifting restrictions would be a disaster for the UK, I honestly don't think those restrictions would be lifted.
		
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I have no idea what he thinks, I suspect he probably doesn't agree with the speed things have moved it. I was just pointing out that they've been conspicuous by their absence over the last few months and I know from the comments of many online that they are keen to hear what they think.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The public health principles of managing a health crisis emphasise prudence and caution. Tasking risks that can be avoided is not part of the game. Assuming you don't know all that is happening, and that the stuff you don't know about is mostly bad, is simply part of his culture and training.

At the start of this pandemic, Whitty made a speech in which he said that when this was all over, one of two things would happen. He would be blamed for not acting strongly enough to prevent deaths and illness, or  he would be blamed for over-reacting when there were very few deaths and illnesses. He said that he knew which one he preferred. He also pointed out, as I have done previously here too, that the task of preventing bad outcomes is very difficult to judge. You really can't titrate actions with any finesse against an unknown and unknowable threat, so the risk of being accused of over-reacting is often wrongly made by those who have no idea about how close they came to bad things happening.
		
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I'm sure many think that "free" testing should still be available (as an example). However, I understand £2 billion per month is spent on testing. It is clearly not free, and it seems a pretty big bill we are paying. So, if that is scrapped, maybe the reason it is scrapped will be because we do not think it is providing a big enough benefit to the UK. It might be argued the vulnerable would still like this to be in place, however it might be decided some of this £2 billion a month would be better spent in other parts of health care - that will benefit the vulnerable much more? 

The same could be said about lifting other restrictions, that it will free up money / resources for the benefit of the nations health and economy?

I too will be interested in what the experts have to say tonight at any rate. I suspect that they will say they are comfortable with the state lifting restrictions, but we should continue to act responsibly. I'd imagine that would be the official line at any point restrictions would be lifted.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I have no idea what he thinks, I suspect he probably doesn't agree with the speed things have moved it. I was just pointing out that they've been conspicuous by their absence over the last few months *and I know from the comments of many online that they are keen to hear what they think.*

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put me in this category, but I have a feeling he has been “ advised” to keep his opinions to Himself and his cakehole well and truly shut.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			put me in this category, but I have a feeling he has been “ advised” to keep his opinions to Himself and his cakehole well and truly shut.
		
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Of course, if that is what people feel, then there is really no point in hearing what he has to say?

I think some are only going to agree with him if he says something to back up their own opinion. If he doesn't, they'll either focus completely on any caveats that all scientists will give, or just say he has been told to keep his opinion to himself.

If that is the case, might as well not have him on tonight at all.


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## road2ruin (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Of course, if that is what people feel, then there is really no point in hearing what he has to say?

*I think some are only going to agree with him if he says something to back up their own opinion*. If he doesn't, they'll either focus completely on any caveats that all scientists will give, or just say he has been told to keep his opinion to himself.

If that is the case, might as well not have him on tonight at all.
		
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I'm not sure if I agree. The assumption is at the moment that the decisions being made are being driven by a desire to please backbenchers, to get the economy going and to (possibly) get other stories off the front pages. I think if someone like Whitty comes on and says that they agree with the decisions made then those who are doubting the reasons behind them will have more faith that they're being made for the right reasons. If he comes out and says he doesn't agree then those were were wary of the reasons will feel vindicated and those who weren't would just claim that he's far too wary and we need to get back to reality so neither side would change their opinion if that makes sense. Essentially I think a lot of people would put more value on his opinion on what is going on than those who are going to be doing the speaking. 

Anyway, he's on at 7pm so it will be interesting to see what he says and what the body language of him and Vallance is.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Of course, if that is what people feel, then there is really no point in hearing what he has to say?

*I think some are only going to agree with him if he says something to back up their own opinion.* If he doesn't, they'll either focus completely on any caveats that all scientists will give, or just say he has been told to keep his opinion to himself.

If that is the case, might as well not have him on tonight at all.
		
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Totally agree. I think there had been camps on both sides that have been happy to quote comments that agree with there own opinion rather than have an open mind.


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm sure many think that "free" testing should still be available (as an example). However, I understand £2 billion per month is spent on testing. It is clearly not free, and it seems a pretty big bill we are paying. So, if that is scrapped, maybe the reason it is scrapped will be because we do not think it is providing a big enough benefit to the UK. It might be argued the vulnerable would still like this to be in place, however it might be decided some of this £2 billion a month would be better spent in other parts of health care - that will benefit the vulnerable much more?

The same could be said about lifting other restrictions, that it will free up money / resources for the benefit of the nations health and economy?

I too will be interested in what the experts have to say tonight at any rate. I suspect that they will say they are comfortable with the state lifting restrictions, but we should continue to act responsibly. I'd imagine that would be the official line at any point restrictions would be lifted.
		
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£2bn? That amount of money gets lost every day down the side of the sofas of leading cronies.

A massive amount of money has indeed been wasted on a disastrous testing and tracing strategy. I see no attempt to rein any of that back in, nor to recover money that has been didddlid out of the public purse. Testing and tracing could and should have done much more cheaply and effectively within the NHS and PHE. Testing 'for cause', i.e with symptoms, should continue. Routine testing for schools and workplaces should end, though.

I am trained in, and have worked in UK public health, and I guarantee you that whatever he says tonight, Chris Whitty and all the other PH docs would wish to see people continue to be tested for symptoms, possibly close contacts too, and isolate if positive. I doubt he believes adherence to that would be very good based on advice rather than mandate. He won't say anything he doesn't agree with, so look for nuanced differences.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



*£2bn? That amount of money gets lost every day down the side of the sofas of leading cronies.*

A massive amount of money has indeed been wasted on a disastrous testing and tracing strategy. I see no attempt to rein any of that back in, nor to recover money that has been didddlid out of the public purse. Testing and tracing could and should have done much more cheaply and effectively within the NHS and PHE. Testing 'for cause', i.e with symptoms, should continue. Routine testing for schools and workplaces should end, though.

I am trained in, and have worked in UK public health, and I guarantee you that whatever he says tonight, Chris Whitty and all the other PH docs would wish to see people continue to be tested for symptoms, possibly close contacts too, and isolate if positive. I doubt he believes adherence to that would be very good based on advice rather than mandate. He won't say anything he doesn't agree with, so look for nuanced differences.
		
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There may be a lot of wasted money, but if it is felt £2 billion is better spent elsewhere then surely you need to take that into account. That is £24 billion a year, about half of the NHS wage bill and about a quarter of the NHS budget. So, I don't think you can dismiss this as an insignificant amount of money.


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			There may be a lot of wasted money, but if it is felt £2 billion is better spent elsewhere then surely you need to take that into account. That is £24 billion a year, about half of the NHS wage bill and about a quarter of the NHS budget. So, I don't think you can dismiss this as an insignificant amount of money.
		
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My point is that claiming to be careful with money now after a lengthy period of spunking it away like it was going out of fashion with hardly any regard for value or quality is rather rich, especially when most experts agree that focussed testing is still pretty important, and we will lose control over what remains of surveillance if we don't keep it up.


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## DanFST (Feb 21, 2022)

Fourth Jab for the Over 75's.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			My point is that claiming to be careful with money now after a lengthy period of spunking it away like it was going out of fashion with hardly any regard for value or quality is rather rich, especially when most experts agree that focussed testing is still pretty important, and we will lose control over what remains of surveillance if we don't keep it up.
		
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I'd rather they were able to control their spending better though, than continuing to throw it away just because that has what has happened up to now. In fact, I'd like to think there'd be better control in getting value out of our taxes now that there is more time to make decisions, and the panic has subsided.

Apparently most experts agree a big scale back in testing is warranted, the question is how much so. I think testing within hospitals are still expected to continue, but we'll all be a little wiser tonight.


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## bobmac (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Apparently most experts agree a big scale back in testing is warranted, the question is how much so. I think testing within hospitals are still expected to continue, *but we'll all be a little wiser tonight.*

Click to expand...

Only if you watch it, I won't.
The ONLY thing I'm interested in is how Covid is affecting the area where I live which today is showing
Cases DOWN 32.4%
Deaths  0
Patients admitted in United Lincolnshire Hospitals DOWN 13%
R value  0.7-0.9
I appreciate others aren't as fortunate as I am.


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I'd rather they were able to control their spending better though, than continuing to throw it away just because that has what has happened up to now. In fact, I'd like to think there'd be better control in getting value out of our taxes now that there is more time to make decisions, and the panic has subsided.

Apparently most experts agree a big scale back in testing is warranted, the question is how much so. I think testing within hospitals are still expected to continue, but we'll all be a little wiser tonight.
		
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As I said, test 'for cause', i.e. for symptoms. Self isolate if positive, not if not. If they want to cut costs, make it LFTs, but they have to be provided free or people won't do them. 

The cost savings made now will be a drop in the ocean compared to the cost if another variant gets its feet well under the table before we realise. It might be a very false economy. 

If the Govt is keen to cut costs, they should go after money wasted on contracts for kit that was never delivered, overpriced or not up to quality.


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			As I said, test 'for cause', i.e. for symptoms. Self isolate if positive, not if not. If they want to cut costs, make it LFTs, but they have to be provided free or people won't do them.

The cost savings made now will be a drop in the ocean compared to the cost if another variant gets its feet well under the table before we realise. It might be a very false economy.

If the Govt is keen to cut costs, they should go after money wasted on contracts for kit that was never delivered, overpriced or not up to quality.
		
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With respect I think your last few posts are politically based.


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## D-S (Feb 21, 2022)

Is testing free in other nations? I seem to recall Hobbit saying that it was a couple of Euros a time in Spain, but I may have remembered it wrongly. Has charging (if that is what other nations do, especially at higher infection times) compromised their response?


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

drdel said:



			With respect I think your last few posts are politically based.
		
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With equal respect, I was commenting on the implications for public health. Any comment could be construed as political if implies agreement or disagreement with something that was the subject of a political decision or policy. One of the arguments made for this policy shift was financial.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2022)

D-S said:



			Is testing free in other nations? I seem to recall Hobbit saying that it was a couple of Euros a time in Spain, but I may have remembered it wrongly. Has charging (if that is what other nations do, especially at higher infection times) compromised their response?
		
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I heard on the radio the other day that kits in Italy have to be bought by the individual also.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I heard on the radio the other day that kits in Italy have to be bought by the individual also.
		
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If some have to pay for tests they will need to go without something else so won't test.  Maybe some countries have been doing this but it doesn't sound right to me.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If some have to pay for tests they will need to go without something else so won't test.  Maybe some countries have been doing this but it doesn't sound right to me.
		
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I wonder how many people test now anyway. If symptoms are mild or non existent in majority of cases, why would people test anyway? How many people test regularly, symptoms or not?


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## ExRabbit (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I wonder how many people test now anyway. *If symptoms are mild or non existent in majority of cases, why would people test anyway?* How many people test regularly, symptoms or not?
		
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My wife tested last Wednesday as she was going to visit her elderly parents on Thursday. She had what she thought was a bit of a cold, but she had a positive test, cancelled the trip and avoided possibly infecting her more vulnerable parents.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 21, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If some have to pay for tests they will need to go without something else so won't test.  Maybe some countries have been doing this but it doesn't sound right to me.
		
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I guess if you have paid from day 1 then that is the norm. I agree with you, once people have to pay some, who knows the percentage, simply won't bother even when showing symptoms.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I wonder how many people test now anyway. If symptoms are mild or non existent in majority of cases, why would people test anyway? How many people test regularly, symptoms or not?
		
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People visiting the elderly or vulnerable.  Some test when visiting friends etc, some test for work.  I think there is still a lot of testing. The reason why they would do it is to be responsible and caring of others.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I guess if you have paid from day 1 then that is the norm. I agree with you, once people have to pay some, who knows the percentage, simply won't bother even when showing symptoms.
		
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Or be able to afford to.  It's a little unfair if the worst off are hit the hardest.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2022)

Well, the press conference was rudely interrupted by Putin starting WW3 (I watched it on Sky)


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## Ethan (Feb 21, 2022)

Testing will drop sharply now that it is declared unnecessary, and further in April when it is chargeable. I think it was fairly obvious that Chris Whitty would have preferred sticking with isolation and testing.

Some other countries set a different expectation for healthcare costs and funding. Test-negative status might still be needed for access there, so incentives to test different. All basically gone here now.


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			With equal respect, I was commenting on the implications for public health. Any comment could be construed as political if implies agreement or disagreement with something that was the subject of a political decision or policy. One of the arguments made for this policy shift was financial.
		
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True but putting in words like "...spunking..." in your narrative was not apolitical.


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## Ethan (Feb 22, 2022)

drdel said:



			True but putting in words like "...spunking..." in your narrative was not apolitical.
		
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I did not know that was a political word, just a colourful word for wasting.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I did not know that was a political word, just a colourful word for wasting.
		
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If it is a political word Ave been wasting me time 😉😁


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## Lilyhawk (Feb 22, 2022)

D-S said:



			Is testing free in other nations? I seem to recall Hobbit saying that it was a couple of Euros a time in Spain, but I may have remembered it wrongly. Has charging (if that is what other nations do, especially at higher infection times) compromised their response?
		
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Not in Sweden where I’m from. Never has been. They’re about £3 per LFT.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 22, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Not in Sweden where I’m from. Never has been. They’re about £3 per LFT.
		
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Yup spoke to a pal last night in Italy, she said they have always had to pay for LFT. They were expensive when they were first available. Now about €12 each but you can pick them up for €5 or 6 from markets.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 22, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If some have to pay for tests they will need to go without something else so won't test.  Maybe some countries have been doing this but it doesn't sound right to me.
		
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£20 for a standard pack of 7 tests is going to be a push for those on low income or for those who get minimum sick pay - especially given we know what’s going to happen to gas and electricity costs for us all in a couple of months time.  It’s all very well the state asking you to pay for tests when the state also ensures a high level of sick pay and other benefits.


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## bobmac (Feb 22, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s all very well *the state* asking you to pay for tests when* the state* also ensures a high level of sick pay and other benefits.
		
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You mean the government?


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## drdel (Feb 22, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I did not know that was a political word, just a colourful word for wasting.
		
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As an intelligent person the sentence/context was not accident...


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## GB72 (Feb 22, 2022)

I guess there could have been room for some middle ground on free tests. What frustrates is that many very large, very profitable companies, wrote compulsory LF testing into their covid safety procedures. As such, thousands of people are taking sometimes daily LF tests at taxpayers expense whereas the cost, at least in part, could have been covered by some of the global companies insisting on daily testing. As the tests were free there was, in the cases that I am aware of, little consideration of the need to test daily but rather a blanket requirement to have a clear test that day to enter buildings. 

Oh well, will just wait now for the almost inevitable LF test shortage as people try and stockpile or even profiteer when they stop being free.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 23, 2022)

Having been looking forward to a relaxation of restrictions and with a significant birthday coming up, we'd booked a trip to Scotland for some golf & a few distillery visits.

And as a result of a weak positive LFT & a confirmed positive PCR, I've spent the evening cancelling everything.  My true thoughts would see me with a significant holiday from here, if not a permanent ban.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 23, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Having been looking forward to a relaxation of restrictions and with a significant birthday coming up, we'd booked a trip to Scotland for some golf & a few distillery visits.

And as a result of a weak positive LFT & a confirmed positive PCR, I've spent the evening cancelling everything.  My true thoughts would see me with a significant holiday from here, if not a permanent ban.
		
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Tough break. Hope you can find an alternative date and the symptoms aren't too bad


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## Tashyboy (Feb 23, 2022)

Been to Mcarthur Glen at York today. Flippin eck the floods.However I had been there 5 mins and thought oh heck me mask. I had it on for the next 2 hours. One of my first thoughts was I am in Lanzarote in less than 2 weeks so the last thing I need is COVID. i was gobsmacked how many people are now not wearing them.


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## chrisd (Feb 23, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Having been looking forward to a relaxation of restrictions and with a significant birthday coming up, we'd booked a trip to Scotland for some golf & a few distillery visits.

And as a result of a weak positive LFT & a confirmed positive PCR, I've spent the evening cancelling everything.  My true thoughts would see me with a significant holiday from here, if not a permanent ban.
		
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Gutted for you and Mrs BIM Richard


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 23, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Been to *Mcarthur Glen at York* today. Flippin eck the floods.However I had been there 5 mins and thought oh heck me mask. I had it on for the next 2 hours. One of my first thoughts was I am in Lanzarote in less than 2 weeks so the last thing I need is COVID. i was gobsmacked how many people are now not wearing them.
		
Click to expand...

I love that place. Do much damage to the bank account?


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## Tashyboy (Feb 23, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I love that place. Do much damage to the bank account?
		
Click to expand...

Missis T did. 😖 me I settled for a box of choccies from hotel chocolat. 😁 oh and five miniature gel pens for marking at golf £3, Boom. Absolutely gutted though, I had seen a Hamilton watch at Ernest Jones. Reduced to £325, on hot deals with a link it was £275. I ummed and arred and I have missed out.The deal has finished 😖
Had a lovely drive back down the A614


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## chrisd (Feb 23, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Missis T did. 😖 me I settled for a box of choccies from hotel chocolat. 😁 oh and five miniature gel pens for marking at golf £3, Boom. Absolutely gutted though, I had seen a Hamilton watch at Ernest Jones. Reduced to £325, on hot deals with a link it was £275. I ummed and arred and I have missed out.The deal has finished 😖
Had a lovely drive back down the A614
		
Click to expand...

Mrs D and I live within 10 minutes of the Ashford  McArthur Glen. I do like to pop in occasionally for a large box of Haribo's 😋😋


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## Tashyboy (Feb 23, 2022)

chrisd said:



			Mrs D and I live within 10 minutes of the Ashford  McArthur Glen. I do like to pop in occasionally for a large box of Haribo's 😋😋
		
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The Sutton in Ashfield one is rammel.Much prefer the drive up north. 👍


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 23, 2022)

chrisd said:



			Gutted for you and Mrs BIM Richard
		
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Thanks Chris.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 24, 2022)

bobmac said:



			You mean the government?
		
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I think I mean the state.  The government determines; the state provides (or doesn't).


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## ExRabbit (Feb 24, 2022)

Allowed to leave my home legally now, but staying there until I pass the rules in place when I tested positive last week.


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			The Sutton in Ashfield one is rammel.Much prefer the drive up north. 👍
		
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It's the only one I've been to. It is a great advert for online shopping.


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Having been looking forward to a relaxation of restrictions and with a significant birthday coming up, we'd booked a trip to Scotland for some golf & a few distillery visits.

And as a result of a weak positive LFT & a confirmed positive PCR, I've spent the evening cancelling everything.  My true thoughts would see me with a significant holiday from here, if not a permanent ban.
		
Click to expand...

Wow, that's unlucky.
Wishing you well.


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## WGCRider (Feb 24, 2022)

As of today all those who's children 100% have Covid but are feeling okay have been told they should be in school - staying at home is at best the parents choice.

Best of luck to all the unvaxed children and teachers out there and their families.


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## Foxholer (Feb 24, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			As of today all those who's children 100% have Covid but are feeling okay have been told they should be in school - staying at home is at best the parents choice.

Best of luck to all the unvaxed children and teachers out there and their families.
		
Click to expand...

Imposition of the 'herd immunity' process!
Ok for those without 'at risk' relatives/neighbours, but not great for those with such vulnerable associates!


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## Old Skier (Feb 24, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Having been looking forward to a relaxation of restrictions and with a significant birthday coming up, we'd booked a trip to Scotland for some golf & a few distillery visits.

And as a result of a weak positive LFT & a confirmed positive PCR, I've spent the evening cancelling everything.  My true thoughts would see me with a significant holiday from here, if not a permanent ban.
		
Click to expand...

Take care mate, your not as young as you once were


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## road2ruin (Feb 24, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			As of today all those who's children 100% have Covid but are feeling okay have been told they should be in school - staying at home is at best the parents choice.

Best of luck to all the unvaxed children and teachers out there and their families.
		
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But unless they're showing symptoms how will anyone know if they '100% have Covid'? If they have symptoms they're still obliged to say at home and isolate for 5 full days and test negative for 2 consecutive days as per DfE guidance, this is until April 1st. 

Those who aren't showing symptoms will be in school just like adults will still be at work as they won't be testing so would never know.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 24, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			Take care mate, your not as young as you once were
		
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Thanks, I think...


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			As of today all those who's children 100% have Covid but are feeling okay have been told they should be in school - staying at home is at best the parents choice.

Best of luck to all the unvaxed children and teachers out there and their families.
		
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, just before these restrictions were lifted, there was no requirement for school kids to test for Covid? My work colleague said his primary school kids did not have to, and the kids at a secondary school his wife taught at did not have to, although recommended 2 tests a week at home would be beneficial. So, I am guessing plenty of kids were not being tested anyway, especially if they didn't have any symptoms (of course, I'm sure some families made a decision to have regular tests).

So, I wonder if the situation now is practically much different to before?


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 24, 2022)

Slime said:



			Wow, that's unlucky.
Wishing you well. 

Click to expand...

Unlucky's one word for it...   Thanks mate.


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## adam6177 (Feb 24, 2022)

Shocked at how many peopl still wearing masks on my commute in London today. Probably 25% of people still wearing them, I would as convinced more people would bin the face fashion.


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## Ethan (Feb 24, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Shocked at how many peopl still wearing masks on my commute in London today. Probably 25% of people still wearing them, I would as convinced more people would bin the face fashion.
		
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'Face fashion?' Maybe they are just socially responsible citizens, unlike the majority on your commute, including, presumably, you.


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## RichA (Feb 24, 2022)

adam6177 said:



			Shocked at how many peopl still wearing masks on my commute in London today. Probably 25% of people still wearing them, I would as convinced more people would bin the face fashion.
		
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About 75% on my commute in London, none of us looking particularly fashionable.


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## howbow88 (Feb 24, 2022)

The end of the line for testing. We're closing down on 31Mar, which has come of a bit of a surprise - we all thought that there would be a bit more of a winding down period. 

Oh well, I'll have to go back into the real world now and find myself a new job


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2022)

Shopped at Sainsbury's this morning and still around 85% wearing masks, myself included.


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## Imurg (Feb 24, 2022)

Probably 80:20 split in Tesco this morning.....I was one of the 20% wearing a mask....


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## pauljames87 (Feb 24, 2022)

didnt everyone get the memo.. covid is finished.. its a rich mans illness now


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2022)

About 10% on my commute home still had a mask on. I was in that minority. Forgot to take it off coming out of the station and walked into the town centre where I was a rarity and hardly anyone masked which did surprise me. Thought some of the more senior folk (my age and above) would have been a bit more vigilant at least for a few days/or week or so


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## patricks148 (Feb 24, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Been to Mcarthur Glen at York today. Flippin eck the floods.However I had been there 5 mins and thought oh heck me mask. I had it on for the next 2 hours. One of my first thoughts was I am in Lanzarote in less than 2 weeks so the last thing I need is COVID. i was gobsmacked how many people are now not wearing them.
		
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Didn't Richard Harris sing a song about that?? Something about leaving his cake out in the rain.


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## Imurg (Feb 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Didn't Richard Harris sing a song about that?? Something about leaving his cake out in the rain.
		
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I'm sure it's a metaphor for something...


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2022)

patricks148 said:



			Didn't Richard Harris sing a song about that?? Something about leaving his cake out in the rain.
		
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I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again


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## WGCRider (Feb 24, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			But unless they're showing symptoms how will anyone know if they '100% have Covid'? If they have symptoms they're still obliged to say at home and isolate for 5 full days and test negative for 2 consecutive days as per DfE guidance, this is until April 1st.

Those who aren't showing symptoms will be in school just like adults will still be at work as they won't be testing so would never know.
		
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Nope - as of today you are no longer required to isolate if you have covid. Thats for everyone. There "guidance" to stay at home but it's entirely up to you. 

As many will know most kids are only ill for a day or two. Then feel fine despite still testing positive for days. So rest assured those infectious kids will be at school. So yes - from today in your kids school and on the train or bus you use - you will be sitting beside people that 100% have covid - per one of the other post 80% of people that shop at Sainsburys have figured this out.


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## road2ruin (Feb 24, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			Nope - as of today you are no longer required to isolate if you have covid. Thats for everyone. There "guidance" to stay at home but it's entirely up to you.
		
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Wrong. The guidance is for adults however for the DofE the guidance for schools is still as is until April 1st. Any child with symptoms (or has a positive test result) is not to attend school until they have isolated for 5 days and have 2 negative tests.


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## WGCRider (Feb 24, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Wrong. The guidance is for adults however for the DofE the guidance for schools is still as is until April 1st. Any child with symptoms (or has a positive test result) is not to attend school until they have isolated for 5 days and have 2 negative tests.
		
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gov.uk 

As the link says - not after 24th Feb. There are free test available until 1 April then after that you can buy them from Boots for £5 - unless you are in Ireland then you can also buy them from Boots for 70 cents

There may be guidance from the DofE. But I think they also have guidance that you should get your 5-a-day. So you know, their covid guidance has about the same weight as that.


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## road2ruin (Feb 24, 2022)

WGCRider said:



gov.uk

As the link says - not after 24th Feb. There are free test available until 1 April then after that you can buy them from Boots for £5 - unless you are in Ireland then you can also buy them from Boots for 70 cents

There may be guidance from the DofE. But I think they also have guidance that you should get your 5-a-day. So you know, their covid guidance has about the same weight as that.
		
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Well the schools in our area are all following the DofE guidance until April 1st. 

Anyway, doesn’t really matter, most kids have had it, all grandparents etc should be up to date with jabs so crack on.


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## Imurg (Feb 25, 2022)

Saw something today that I really struggled to get my head around....
A queue of people at Tesco, waiting to get to the hand and trolley sanitiser station......and none of them were wearing masks....
They al, wiped down their trolleys, sanitised their hands and walked in....without masks...
Am I missing something..?


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## AmandaJR (Feb 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Saw something today that I really struggled to get my head around....
A queue of people at Tesco, waiting to get to the hand and trolley sanitiser station......and none of them were wearing masks....
They al, wiped down their trolleys, sanitised their hands and walked in....without masks...
*Am I missing something..?*

Click to expand...

They see masks as protecting others but sanitising protects them? AKA selfish...

Waits for comments about mask police etc etc!!


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Saw something today that I really struggled to get my head around....
A queue of people at Tesco, waiting to get to the hand and trolley sanitiser station......and none of them were wearing masks....
They al, wiped down their trolleys, sanitised their hands and walked in....without masks...
*Am I missing something..?*

Click to expand...

No, they are; grey matter between their ears.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 25, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			They see masks as protecting others but sanitising protects them? AKA selfish...

Waits for comments about mask police etc etc!!
		
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Wasn't covid on surfaces discredited a while back? A test on London Underground or London rail services from memory.


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 25, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



*Wasn't covid on surfaces discredited* a while back? A test on London Underground or London rail services from memory.
		
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If anyone has evidence of this or a link please let me know; Mrs BiM is currently like a woman possessed with wipes.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 25, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			If anyone has evidence of this or a link please let me know; Mrs BiM is currently like a woman possessed with wipes. 

Click to expand...

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227473/covid-19-sampling-study-finds-trace-virus/

Good luck 👍


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 25, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Waits for comments about mask police etc etc!!
		
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That's my job. Had I posted something like that the usual suspects will have descended. In your defence I totally agree its nothing more than selfish but now we're in this "work it out for yourself" stage then people will do what they like and worry about #1 only. As soon as it goes south again (it will with mutations, next winter etc) they'll be moaning about no-one wearing masks


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## BrianM (Feb 25, 2022)

Tested positive again from a lateral flow test and just back from getting a PCR, just feels like a really bad cold this time.
We are just back from a few days in London and hardly a soul was wearing a mask, we almost felt like the odd ones out and not because we are Scottish 😂😂


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## Ethan (Feb 26, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Wasn't covid on surfaces discredited a while back? A test on London Underground or London rail services from memory.
		
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Yep, it moved into the 'seen to be doing something, even if essentially useless' category pretty early on.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 26, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Wasn't covid on surfaces discredited a while back? A test on London Underground or London rail services from memory.
		
Click to expand...

Ironically (happy to be corrected) that washing of hands and surfaces with deemed pretty much no effect to the spread but the one thing that really can work is masks (correctly fitted and of the right grade)

Doesn't hurt ofc to keep good hygiene

Your right about that study, it was to say to people look it's safe however it's safe because your not here breathing on others


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## theoneandonly (Feb 26, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Yep, it moved into the 'seen to be doing something, even if essentially useless' category pretty early on.
		
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Surely improving hygiene can only be a good thing. Or is covid the only illness these days ?


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## Fade and Die (Feb 26, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Yep, it moved into the 'seen to be doing something, even if essentially useless' category pretty early on.
		
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Woah! Wait! Are you telling me Facebook was wrong!! 😂😂




__ https://www.facebook.com/His1warrior/posts/10218152787944328


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## bobmac (Feb 26, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Surely improving hygiene can only be a good thing.
		
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Do you think he suggested it wasn't?


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 26, 2022)

Passed a lady’s house today round the corner. She happened to be doing some gardening on the yard with a mask on. 
She saw me coming and said wait there please I can’t be near anyone and moved quickly in the house. 
  Used to see her often getting some exercise or in the garden and she’d make comments on the dogs. Dawned on me months back I’d not seen her for along time, actually thought she’d passed. 
  Now i know why, think she may have holed up in her home.
Pretty worrying to see someone react that way to someone being 20ft away passing her home.


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## BrianM (Feb 26, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Tested positive again from a lateral flow test and just back from getting a PCR, just feels like a really bad cold this time.
We are just back from a few days in London and hardly a soul was wearing a mask, we almost felt like the odd ones out and not because we are Scottish 😂😂
		
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PCR test positive, don’t even feel that bad compared to the first time I had it, just puts your life on hold though 🤬


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 26, 2022)

BrianM said:



			PCR test positive, don’t even feel that bad compared to the first time I had it, *just puts your life on hold though* 🤬
		
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Tell me about it.  Hope it's nt too bad & you recover quickly.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 26, 2022)

BrianM said:



			PCR test positive, don’t even feel that bad compared to the first time I had it, just puts your life on hold though 🤬
		
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Why’s that?   You just crack in with life now don’t you?


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## ExRabbit (Feb 26, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Why’s that?   You just crack in with life now don’t you?
		
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*          Advice in England has changed      *

While you’re no longer required by law to self-isolate if you have COVID-19, you should still stay at home and avoid contact with other people. This helps reduce the chance of passing COVID-19 on to others.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 26, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



*          Advice in England has changed      *

While you’re no longer required by law to self-isolate if you have COVID-19, you should still stay at home and avoid contact with other people. This helps reduce the chance of passing COVID-19 on to others.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/

Click to expand...

And in my case, and I believe in BrianM's case, it's Scottish law/advice that is relevant, which is to self-isolate I believe.


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## SammmeBee (Feb 26, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			And in my case, and I believe in BrianM's case, it's Scottish law/advice that is relevant, which is to self-isolate I believe.
		
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Why got for PCR tho if LFT positive…..just LFT until negative?


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## BrianM (Feb 26, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Why’s that?   You just crack in with life now don’t you?
		
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What I seen down in old London Town you’d think so, but I’m a by the book sort of person and would hate to pass it on knowingly to someone else.


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## BrianM (Feb 26, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Tell me about it.  Hope it's nt too bad & you recover quickly.
		
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You too, just got to do the best you can 👍🏻


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2022)

BrianM said:



			What I seen down in old London Town you’d think so, but I’m a by the book sort of person and would hate to pass it on knowingly to someone else.
		
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Top man. I'd be isolating as well (still not had it despite working in a hospital and commuting for the last two years). Just not in my nature to go out knowing I'm positive. You have no idea who the person next to you is and how vulnerable they may be


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## SocketRocket (Feb 26, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Why’s that?   You just crack in with life now don’t you?
		
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Was that sarcasm or a joke?


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## SammmeBee (Feb 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Was that sarcasm or a joke?
		
Click to expand...

Neither….that’s what we’ve been told to do now…..


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## Foxholer (Feb 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Was that sarcasm or a joke?
		
Click to expand...

That's the 'new' - living with covid - approach. Though protection of/by/for the vulnerable, where known/identifiable would be quite reasonable too.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 26, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Ironically (happy to be corrected) that washing of hands and surfaces with deemed pretty much no effect to the spread but the one thing that really can work is masks (correctly fitted and of the right grade)

Doesn't hurt ofc to keep good hygiene

Your right about that study, it was to say to people look it's safe however it's safe because your not here breathing on others
		
Click to expand...

"And we have cleaned the place often and thoroughly etc" paraphrased.

So the study is not saying the virus cannot and does not spread by transmission from surfaces, does it?
And after years of flu and cold viruses spreading via surfaces, how come Covid doesn't?
Ok, not nearly as efficiently as breathing virus laden air, but let's not pretend "not at all".
And Ethan, are you saying that respiratory viruses do not spread via surfaces? Because that's how your post reads to me . If I understand wrongly, I apologise, but if not, I'm surprised at that , coming from a Dr.


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## Ethan (Feb 27, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			"And we have cleaned the place often and thoroughly etc" paraphrased.

So the study is not saying the virus cannot and does not spread by transmission from surfaces, does it?
And after years of flu and cold viruses spreading via surfaces, how come Covid doesn't?
Ok, not nearly as efficiently as breathing virus laden air, but let's not pretend "not at all".
And Ethan, are you saying that respiratory viruses do not spread via surfaces? Because that's how your post reads to me . If I understand wrongly, I apologise, but if not, I'm surprised at that , coming from a Dr.
		
Click to expand...

You don't understand me wrongly. Surface transmission has been looked at as a source of Covid transmission and was found to be fairly insignificant. There is a difference between virus surviving on surfaces and viruses being able to be picked up in adequate quantities and in adequate condition to cause disease. This will vary between viruses. 

Masks, ventilation, outside vs inside, social distancing, isolation and, of course, vaccination are much more important. 

CDC

Nature


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Neither….that’s what we’ve been told to do now…..
		
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Not really. We've been advised to self isolate, not crack on with it.


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## pauljames87 (Feb 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Not really. We've been advised to self isolate, not crack on with it.
		
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what worries me more is say for example my companies policy is to isolate still, supported with sick pay because if you come in you could infect more staff so its not worth it..business case given atm 

however what about for example the cleaners... contracted out.. prob dont have this support...

one of them gets it, cant afford to isolate .. we all get it


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			You don't understand me wrongly. Surface transmission has been looked at as a source of Covid transmission and was found to be fairly insignificant. There is a difference between virus surviving on surfaces and viruses being able to be picked up in adequate quantities and in adequate condition to cause disease. This will vary between viruses. 

Masks, ventilation, outside vs inside, social distancing, isolation and, of course, vaccination are much more important. 

CDC

Nature

Click to expand...

Last sentence- yes, of course  , agree completely, but still somewhat surprised at the volte face re surfaces.
It's one of those things about viruses, in almost all cases it cannot be proved where and how precisely it was picked up.😀


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## Blue in Munich (Feb 27, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Last sentence- yes, of course  , agree completely, but *still somewhat surprised at the volte face re surfaces*.
It's one of those things about viruses, in almost all cases it cannot be proved where and how precisely it was picked up.😀
		
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Given what we knew at the start about transmission, I'd guess it was a case of cover all the bases first off then withdraw what isn't effective as we go forward.


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## Backache (Feb 27, 2022)

Just been skiing in Italy, it's all pretty organized with compulsory masks on all lifts and you have to be vaccinated to get a lift pass or get into bars. All shops and hotels have mask wearing.


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## Ethan (Feb 27, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Last sentence- yes, of course  , agree completely, but still somewhat surprised at the volte face re surfaces.
It's one of those things about viruses, in almost all cases it cannot be proved where and how precisely it was picked up.😀
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it was a volte face. As BIM said, reasonable to start with that, although the distinction between indoors and outdoors was never really adequately made, but as we understood Covid better, a number of aspects of the strategy evolved.

It is also a useful visible symbol, even if rather ineffective, that shops and public buildings were taking is seriously, and it is a lot easier to do that fundamentally improve ventilation or clean the air.


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## Robster59 (Feb 28, 2022)

We had a phone call from my Stepson yesterday.  His partner has got Covid. This is the third time she has had it.  She works as a teacher, and he works with displaced teenagers, so both in jobs with lots of opportunities to catch the Virus. 
My missus went around to see them on Saturday to drop off a birthday present for one of their children, so now we are testing.  I'm having to do it daily, as today I am travelling on business. 
I have a new starter I have to train tomorrow, and then work in Oxford on Wednesday.  Wonderful!


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## backwoodsman (Mar 1, 2022)

Is covid over???  A whole day and only one post!  Is it too much to hope that, finally, everyone has argued themselves to a standstill


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## GreiginFife (Mar 1, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Is covid over???  A whole day and only one post!  Is it too much to hope that, finally, everyone has argued themselves to a standstill 

Click to expand...

They’re mostly all arguing on the Ukraine thread. 

Experts in public health and virology are now experts in military tactics and diplomatic relations.


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## road2ruin (Mar 1, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Is covid over???  A whole day and only one post!  Is it too much to hope that, finally, everyone has argued themselves to a standstill 

Click to expand...


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2022)

backwoodsman said:



			Is covid over???  A whole day and only one post!  Is it too much to hope that, finally, everyone has argued themselves to a standstill 

Click to expand...

It is the phoney war with Covid. Is it over or is Covid HQ marshalling its forces ready for another onslaught with a new variant (not BA.2, which does not look like the ultimate weapon). We will soon see if the recent abandonment of all measures has an effect. If not, then we might be fine, unless and until another bad variant which escapes population immunity comes along. That is not an unrealistic scenario.


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## DanFST (Mar 1, 2022)

When should we know by Ethan? End of this week?


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 1, 2022)

Well I’m currently self isolating - felt a bit rough over weekend but Covid test was negative, took one yesterday as my taste went and Covid test positive- just feels like a rough cold


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2022)

DanFST said:



			When should we know by Ethan? End of this week?
		
Click to expand...

Not sure if the new approach to testing will be as responsive as before on community cases, but hospital numbers will tell that part of the tale soon enough.


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## garyinderry (Mar 1, 2022)

Theres a fair bit if going around my work.  First batch of sick coming back and a new batch all off for 10 days they are being told.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2022)

Some friends have Covid and are not well at all.   I think it's far from over but it's not going to be easy to understand what's going on with the drop in testing and people now making their own minds up what to do when infected.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 1, 2022)

After my PCR positive result, I opted to take the antibody test if selected.  Kit came Saturday, sample taken yesterday, posted in a priority postbox with a 5.30pm collection, text and email with the results at 4.00pm today; outstanding by the Post Office & the NHS. 

Seems I have antibodies which means I have been previously infected ;

*Thank you for doing a coronavirus (COVID-19) antibody test.*
*
Antibodies were found in your blood sample.

This means it’s likely you’ve had COVID-19 previously. We detected antibodies that are made after an infection, and also antibodies that could have been caused by a vaccine.

This result does not guarantee you are fully immune (protected) from COVID-19. It’s still possible to get the virus again or spread it, although your risk is reduced if you’ve had the vaccine or already been infected.

It’s important to keep following COVID-19 advice.
*
*If you took this test because you tested positive for COVID-19 in the last week, it’s unlikely the antibodies detected are from your recent infection. They’re more likely to be from a previous infection.*

So God knows when I got that ; the one time I had what I thought was a heavy cold but potentially could have been Covid I did LFT's daily & was always negative, otherwise I've been completely asymptomatic.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 1, 2022)

Mandatory vaccination requirement for care home workers being removed.  Hmmm.  Why?


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## Ethan (Mar 1, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mandatory vaccination requirement for care home workers being removed.  Hmmm.  Why?
		
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[redacted], obviously.


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## Robster59 (Mar 1, 2022)

Robster59 said:



			We had a phone call from my Stepson yesterday.  His partner has got Covid. This is the third time she has had it.  She works as a teacher, and he works with displaced teenagers, so both in jobs with lots of opportunities to catch the Virus.
My missus went around to see them on Saturday to drop off a birthday present for one of their children, so now we are testing.  I'm having to do it daily, as today I am travelling on business.
I have a new starter I have to train tomorrow, and then work in Oxford on Wednesday.  Wonderful!
		
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Have now had another call from Stepson.  He had a look at his partners result and decided it looked ambiguous, so have been doing daily tests since then.  No signs of Covid.


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## BrianM (Mar 1, 2022)

Line very very faint and feel ok, going to be trying to run an offshore wind farm from home, wish me luck 😂


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## Imurg (Mar 1, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Line very very faint and feel ok, going to be trying to run an offshore wind farm from home, wish me luck 😂
		
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Play them some Black Sabbath - I heard they're big metal fans...


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 1, 2022)

BrianM said:



			Line very very faint and feel ok, going to be trying to run an offshore wind farm from home, wish me luck 😂
		
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If EE can land a plane from a house.....what can possibly go wrong


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## drdel (Mar 1, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			If EE can land a plane from a house.....what can possibly go wrong
		
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Phone will need charging...


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## PNWokingham (Mar 2, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mandatory vaccination requirement for care home workers being removed.  Hmmm.  Why?
		
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Maybe hazard a guess I am sure you can work it out


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mandatory vaccination requirement for care home workers being removed.  Hmmm.  Why?
		
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Dr Hilary Jones was asked the question today, his response:

"The dominant strain is now Omicron, not Delta, which is a less severe virus and less virulent. It's causing less admissions to hospitals, less cases, and less deaths, Actually, we can't afford to lose that number of people from the NHS, we already had a workforce that was under-sourced and understaffed before the pandemic, we can't make it worse now"

He also said

"Things have changed. And I agree. Along with the Royal College of Nursing, and all the people the government have spoken to about this, and think we can do this safely"

He has often been very vocal against easing of restrictions, when asked "So you weren't wrong before? The facts have changed?" he responded "Yes, absolutely. The facts have changed".

Anyway, I thought it would be easier to copy his words, rather than my own as a non-expert. I've also not heard too much about it in the media, with WW3 seemingly about to kick off.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 2, 2022)

Testing negative again this morning but still full of all the symptoms and right now having shortness of breath because of my asthma if I do too much


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			[redacted], obviously.
		
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But surely that's risky, if not verging on madness and disregard.  There will be vulnerable and elderly who have been successfully shielded from the virus throughout the pandemic but who now need to go into care...and the door will be wide open for the virus to walk through. 

Surely we can't just be saying to these individuals - _Well you just have to learn to live with the virus_ - when in fact it might well kill them or hasten their death. Surely we can't really be accepting that risk and I just don't get why.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But surely that's risky, if not verging on madness and callousness.  There will be vulnerable and elderly who have been successfully shielded from the virus throughout the pandemic but who now need to go into care...and the door will be wide open for the virus to walk through. 

Surely we can't just be saying to these individuals - _Well you just have to learn to live with the virus_ - when in fact it might well kill them or hasten their death. Surely we can't really be accepting that risk and I just don't get why.
		
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I assume you are choosing to ignore my comment then?


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## drdel (Mar 2, 2022)

That is the reality. We now have to manage and mitigate the risks with the protocols that have been developed.

Down to  the real world of sustainable Costs and Benefits.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But surely that's risky, if not verging on madness and disregard.  There will be vulnerable and elderly who have been successfully shielded from the virus throughout the pandemic but who now need to go into care...and the door will be wide open for the virus to walk through.

Surely we can't just be saying to these individuals - _Well you just have to learn to live with the virus_ - when in fact it might well kill them or hasten their death. Surely we can't really be accepting that risk and I just don't get why.
		
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This makes interesting reading, with the new variant and the first gen vaccines onward transmission isn't greatly stopped by the vaccine, what they are great at though is stopping death and hospitalisation. 

What do we know about covid vaccines and preventing transmission? | The BMJ 

Isn't it also true that the booster wanes in power after 10 weeks or so, doesn't that mean that even if you are vaccinated would you suggest that they are re-vaccinated every 3 months? Maybe Gen 2 of the vaccine will be better able to prevent transmission.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2022)

A lot of your response to relaxing or retaining restrictions depends on the direction of travel you perceive. If you see Omicron as a mild illness marking the inexorable movement towards "Its just a cold", you'll want to abandon all restrictions and never go back. That is an understandable position. 

If you are more concerned that another less friendly variant could be along shortly, you will take a different and more cautious view. I am yet to be persuaded by evidence that this is not the sensible place to be.

Hilary Jones is a media-friendly GP but not a particular expert on any of these issues. Nor is the Royal College of Nursing. He does note that the facts have changed. True, but they can change again.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			A lot of your response to relaxing or retaining restrictions depends on the direction of travel you perceive. If you see Omicron as a mild illness marking the inexorable movement towards "Its just a cold", you'll want to abandon all restrictions and never go back.

If you are more concerned that another less friendly variant could be along shortly, you will take a different and more cautious view. I am yet to be persuaded by evidence that this is not the sensible place to be.

Hilary Jones is a media-friendly GP but not a particular expert on any of these issues. Nor is the Royal College of Nursing. He does note that the facts have changed. True, but they can change again.
		
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That may be true, but he is likely more of an expert than anyone you will find on Golf Monthly forums. I am also sure he has direct contact with a number of people you would consider experts in the field.

However, if any of us DO consider ourselves more of an expert, I recommend contacting GMB and other news programs to voice your opinions. If your credentials stack up, no doubt they'd be interested in getting you on. It would be far better that this health advice is shared with million on TV, rather than the few that dip in and out of this thread. 

If we kept restrictions as they were, would that really stop a more dangerous variant entering the population? It didn't work with other variants that came into the UK. How long should we wait for a new variant to come along, before being able to lift restriction? If a more dangerous variant was identified, then I'd assume some / many restrictions would be put back into place.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That may be true, but he is likely more of an expert than anyone you will find on Golf Monthly forums. I am also sure he has direct contact with a number of people you would consider experts in the field.

However, if any of us DO consider ourselves more of an expert, I recommend contacting GMB and other news programs to voice your opinions. If your credentials stack up, no doubt they'd be interested in getting you on. It would be far better that this health advice is shared with million on TV, rather than the few that dip in and out of this thread.

If we kept restrictions as they were, would that really stop a more dangerous variant entering the population? It didn't work with other variants that came into the UK. How long should we wait for a new variant to come along, before being able to lift restriction? If a more dangerous variant was identified, then I'd assume some / many restrictions would be put back into place.
		
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Plenty of experts of various sorts providing opinions of varying quality. Far be it from me to trade qualifications, but Hilary is an expert in General Practice, not epidemiology, virology or infectious diseases. 

It is an uncontroversial fact that the next variant of Covid need not be a mild one, and that JCVI stated that as a reason for childhood vaccination. For the same reason, some caution is needed, and prudent withdrawal of restrictions would have been wiser. 

If we kept restrictions, it would not necessarily stop, but should reduce the risk, or at least delay the arrival, of the next variant, since new variants arise as random mutations among infected people. The fewer the number of infected people, the fewer the number of new mutations occur. 

Also, the removal of restrictions was not presented as a step back which could be reinstated, and has been interpreted by many as the war is over.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Plenty of experts of various sorts providing opinions of varying quality. Far be it from me to trade qualifications, but Hilary is an expert in General Practice, not epidemiology, virology or infectious diseases.

It is an uncontroversial fact that the next variant of Covid need not be a mild one, and that JCVI stated that as a reason for childhood vaccination. For the same reason, some caution is needed, and prudent withdrawal of restrictions would have been wiser.

If we kept restrictions, it would not necessarily stop, but should reduce the risk, or at least delay the arrival, of the next variant, since new variants arise as random mutations among infected people. The fewer the number of infected people, the fewer the number of new mutations occur.

Also, the removal of restrictions was not presented as a step back which could be reinstated, and has been interpreted by many as the war is over.
		
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Well, the question was asked on this forum why these certain restrictions were lifted.

Rather than provide a response from an unqualified amateur golfer, I stated the response of a GP who also is likely to have many contacts who are experts in this area. Of course, different experts will still have various levels of opinion, based around the interpretation of the evidence. However, the response he gave seemed to provide a perfectly good explanation as to why these restrictions were lifted. Whether you agree with these reasons is another matter altogether. In my own opinion, I'm inclined to agree with the current outcome, but I guess we all need to make our own minds up at some point, if experts are giving differing opinions.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 2, 2022)

I would assume Hilary is fed info from various people and bodies before he goes on tv to talk about stuff. He must know this is not his area of expertise but many people listen to what he says and trust him. It makes sense for the medical profession to use that trust for good. I'd be surprised if he spoke only based on his own knowledge.

We were chatting at work today about how covid has dropped off the radar following the Ukraine issue, understandably. None of us knew the daily rates, could be a good thing? Stress levels are up regarding the war, down regarding covid.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I would assume Hilary is fed info from various people and bodies before he goes on tv to talk about stuff. He must know this is not his area of expertise but many people listen to what he says and trust him. It makes sense for the medical profession to use that trust for good. I'd be surprised if he spoke only based on his own knowledge.

We were chatting at work today about how covid has dropped off the radar following the Ukraine issue, understandably. None of us knew the daily rates, could be a good thing? Stress levels are up regarding the war, down regarding covid.
		
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Indeed. At my work today, my colleague just came up with "we hear nothing about Covid anymore". It might be a worry for some, but for me and virtually everyone I know, the fear is well and truly gone. Doesn't mean we think Covid has gone, but the fear has. 

When the pubic announcement about restrictions was made, that was bound to generate huge headlines and fear mongering within the media, that the decision was wrong and we could be in huge trouble. However, coincidentally Putin gave his one hour ramble at the same time, and the media instantly forgot about Covid. Well, pretty much, I barely even heard it mentioned in the headlines the next day. I am pretty sure it went from being 90% of news headlines on Monday, to well under 10% by Tuesday. Now I'd be surprised if it gets much more than 1-2% of coverage on mainstream media. 

I'm even going to start considering NOT washing my hands after going to the toilet


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

Around we go in another cycle of differing opinions from the same entrenched folk.
But I can't see the logic of not requiring Care Home staff to be (fully) vaccinated! The folk they are caring for are, after all, the most vulnerable, so need and deserve 'special' treatment. The lack of such care when the virus first arrived was almost criminal neglect!


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 2, 2022)

You have to love sports fans sometimes.  Some of Canada's provinces are still restricted but Winnipeg were letting fans in for their hockey games at 50% capacity - all masked.  So this one guy in the crowd, takes his mask off for about 20 seconds to whistle at the officials for a bad call.   I mean, that is hardly going to spread anything at all is it?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Around we go in another cycle of differing opinions from the same entrenched folk.
But I can't see the logic of not requiring Care Home staff to be (fully) vaccinated! The folk they are caring for are, after all, the most vulnerable, so need and deserve 'special' treatment. The lack of such care when the virus first arrived was almost criminal neglect!
		
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Unison stated we were being pushed to the brink of a staffing catastrophe in the care sector.

So, let us say that the requirement to be fully vaccinated remained in place, do we have the staff to cover that? Will the consequence be:


Vulnerable residents would have less staff to look after them;
Vulnerable residents would have to look for care elsewhere as some homes are closed;
Elderly people who do not need care, but will soon need care will be unable to find a nursing home to go to.
Are those reasons of no concern? If they are, are there quick ways to completely mitigate them if we instantly lose many staff members? If not, are those risks to the vulnerable a lesser price to pay than some catching Covid from an unvaccinated staff member (bearing in mind all the other restrictions the nursing home may have in place due to their health and safety policies, and the fact that the current variant is seemingly much milder than before).

What about the vulnerable patients themselves. How many would rather see the back of an unvaccinated staff member, even if that staff member was an absolutely amazing person who cared for them with dignity, and had a very special place in their heart. I can't speak for all of them, but I am sure some, or many elderly would far rather that unvaccinated staff member stay, especially with the current variant?


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, the question was asked on this forum why these certain restrictions were lifted.

Rather than provide a response from an unqualified amateur golfer, I stated the response of a GP who also is likely to have many contacts who are experts in this area. Of course, different experts will still have various levels of opinion, based around the interpretation of the evidence. However, the response he gave seemed to provide a perfectly good explanation as to why these restrictions were lifted. Whether you agree with these reasons is another matter altogether. In my own opinion, I'm inclined to agree with the current outcome, but I guess we all need to make our own minds up at some point, if experts are giving differing opinions.
		
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How do you know any given amateur golfer is unqualified? Or that they don't have contacts with known experts in the field?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			How do you know any given amateur golfer is unqualified? Or that they don't have contacts with known experts in the field?
		
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I don't. I'm sure some of the top experts in the world play golf. However, based on probability, I'd have to assume that a person is not in that field without any other information. And, even if they are, I can still quote the statements of other experts to add an alternative opinion. As I explicitly said, "different experts will still have various levels of opinion" and "whether you agree with these reasons is another matter altogether". 

I'm not demanding anyone agrees with any statements I make. I'm simply providing some answers to a question that was asked, that seem to be fair and balanced answers, that's all.


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			How do you know any given amateur golfer is unqualified? Or that they don't have contacts with known experts in the field?
		
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✋ I'm not qualified


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't. I'm sure some of the top experts in the world play golf. However, based on probability, I'd have to assume that a person is not in that field without any other information. And, even if they are, I can still quote the statements of other experts to add an alternative opinion. As I explicitly said, "different experts will still have various levels of opinion" and "whether you agree with these reasons is another matter altogether".

I'm not demanding anyone agrees with any statements I make. I'm simply providing some answers to a question that was asked, that seem to be fair and balanced answers, that's all.
		
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Cool. But Hilary Jones still isn't an expert on Covid. Nice enough bloke, from what I hear, but he was clearly "walking it back".

If anybody is concerned about NHS staffing, the real problems are pay and conditions, which have got much worse in recent years, and reforms to pension taxation for senior staff who are forced to reduce their hours or retire early to avoid punitive tax charges.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			...
What about the vulnerable patients themselves. How many would rather see the back of an unvaccinated staff member, even if that staff member was an absolutely amazing person who cared for them with dignity, and had a very special place in their heart. I can't speak for all of them, but I am sure some, or many elderly would far rather that unvaccinated staff member stay, especially with the current variant?
		
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Refer to the last 2 lines of my post that you quoted!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Cool. *But Hilary Jones still isn't an expert on Covid.* Nice enough bloke, from what I hear, but he was clearly "walking it back".

If anybody is concerned about NHS staffing, the real problems are pay and conditions, which have got much worse in recent years, and reforms to pension taxation for senior staff who are forced to reduce their hours or retire early to avoid punitive tax charges.
		
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You've already said that. But, maybe even a pure expert on Covid is no expert in caring for the elderly in general, or dealing with staffing issues in the care sector? An expert in Covid may tell us this variant is less dangerous than the last, but can still cause harm to the vulnerable. They can tell us that the next variant might be more dangerous. And, I don't think anyone here would argue with that.

However, there is a reason that a Covid expert does not make decisions on public health. They simply feed into the decision making process. Just because Covid still presents a risk, that does not mean maintaining restrictions is a good thing, not if there are worse unintended consequences.

A GP who appears in the media is likely to have many sources of information, and the fact that he has been in the media for such a long time probably indicates he does a pretty decent job at representing the various field in healthcare pretty well.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Refer to the last 2 lines of my post that you quoted!
		
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That provides no answer. Views will be different for individuals, but I've heard numerous opinions from the elderly that they do not want to see unvaccinated staff leave, people they consider friends.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			That provides no answer. Views will be different for individuals, but I've heard numerous opinions from the elderly that they do not want to see unvaccinated staff leave, people they consider friends.
		
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There wasn't  question to be answered!
And the simple answer is for the Care Home owners to require them to be vaccinated!


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			There wasn't  question to be answered!
And the simple answer is for the Care Home owners to require them to be vaccinated!
		
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Did you have a read of the BMJ article that I posted above, it includes quotes such as.....

_Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”_

There is also the issue that even if a careworker is vaccinated, if it the protection and therefore the effects on transmissibility do wane after 10 weeks are you then expecting them to be jabbed 5 times a year as even the jabbed will become unjabbed on that front.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Did you have a read of the BMJ article that I posted above, it includes quotes such as.....

_Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”_

There is also the issue that even if a careworker is vaccinated, if it the protection and therefore the effects on transmissibility do wane after 10 weeks are you then expecting them to be jabbed 5 times a year as even the jabbed will become unjabbed on that front.
		
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I've been aware of all of that for a number of months thanks.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			You've already said that. But, maybe even a pure expert on Covid is no expert in caring for the elderly in general, or dealing with staffing issues in the care sector? An expert in Covid may tell us this variant is less dangerous than the last, but can still cause harm to the vulnerable. They can tell us that the next variant might be more dangerous. And, I don't think anyone here would argue with that.

However, there is a reason that a Covid expert does not make decisions on public health. They simply feed into the decision making process. Just because Covid still presents a risk, that does not mean maintaining restrictions is a good thing, not if there are worse unintended consequences.

A GP who appears in the media is likely to have many sources of information, and the fact that he has been in the media for such a long time probably indicates he does a pretty decent job at representing the various field in healthcare pretty well.
		
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I am afraid you have an unrealistic idea of how a media doc works. And what a 'Covid expert' is. Media docs are very much more likely to get their briefing from a producer, the pointed press ones usually don't write the work that goes out under their name, and I doubt they have insider information on stuff that is not in the public domain. It is often quite obvious to people who understand the issues to see that the media docs are filling in blanks with a bit of bluffing. But they are often good at explaining complex stuff in terms that the average Sun reader (aimed at a primary school reading age) can understand. 

There are a range of different forms of expert and expertise on Covid, ranging from epidemiology and public health to virology to infectious diseases to immunology to intensive care medicine to medicine development. I am a registered specialist in two of those areas. A lot of the stuff I have heard from experts speaking outside their field of expertise on one of the areas of my expertise, medicine development, sounded plausible to a lay audience but was utterly wrong. No good asking me what ventilation pressures one would use in a Covid patient in ICU. Nor asking a virologist about the effectiveness of public health measures. And so on. 

Unfortunately, the media thinks an expert is an expert.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I am afraid you have an unrealistic idea of how a media doc works. And what a 'Covid expert' is. Media docs are very much more likely to get their briefing from a producer, the pointed press ones usually don't write the work that goes out under their name, and I doubt they have insider information on stuff that is not in the public domain. It is often quite obvious to people who understand the issues to see that the media docs are filling in blanks with a bit of bluffing. But they are often good at explaining complex stuff in terms that the average Sun reader (aimed at a primary school reading age) can understand.

There are a range of different forms of expert and expertise on Covid, ranging from epidemiology and public health to virology to infectious diseases to immunology to intensive care medicine to medicine development. I am a registered specialist in two of those areas. A lot of the stuff I have heard from experts speaking outside their field of expertise on one of the areas of my expertise, medicine development, sounded plausible to a lay audience but was utterly wrong. No good asking me what ventilation pressures one would use in a Covid patient in ICU. Nor asking a virologist about the effectiveness of public health measures. And so on.

Unfortunately, the media thinks an expert is an expert.
		
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It is good to see you are an expert on how the media works, along with public health in general.

But, if you think the loss of care staff is a much lesser risk to the vulnerable, then so be it.

I still don't agree with you. Sorry.


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## road2ruin (Mar 2, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I've been aware of all of that for a number of months thanks.
		
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So why the insistence on having care staff jabbed? 

Given the care crisis in this country (which was there pre-Covid) you seem more than happy to have those who require care to be left to fend for themselves rather than have an unvaccinated carer. I know which one I would rather go with if given the two options.


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## Ethan (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			1. It is good to see you are an expert on how the media works, along with public health in general.

2. But, if you think the loss of care staff is a much lesser risk to the vulnerable, then so be it.

3. I still don't agree with you. Sorry.
		
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1. Thanks for noticing. I have the certificate. 

2. I think any care home or NHS staff member who is unvaccinated is a threat to their patients. And the numbers who leave would be much smaller than Unison say. 

3. Fine by me.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			So why the insistence on having care staff jabbed?
...
		
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Because it protects Care Home 'inhabitants'! *It's a current requirement* that even the document 'justifying' the revocation states that 'all people working in health and social care settings have a professional duty to be vaccinated'.

Edit. See Item 2 in Ethan's post above. Much more succinctly put!



road2ruin said:



			...
Given the care crisis in this country (which was there pre-Covid) *you seem more than happy to have those who require care to be left to fend for themselves rather than have an unvaccinated carer*....
		
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That suggestion is obscene!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 2, 2022)

Getting tiring again.

For those who feel OK with restrictions, don't waste your breath. You'll try and provide an answer, it'll be ignored. Unless you are a certified medical professional, you have no idea anyway. You are just getting your information from the Sun or media health "experts" anyway. Did you know, a media health expert would come on to a show to explain why it was a BAD idea to lift vaccination requirements, but the producer would tell them to say it was a GOOD idea. I know it sounds strange, especially given the agenda of that show was very much to say every decision made since Covid began has been a disaster. Big u-turn by the TV channel.

I'm happy to say I'm comfortable with the current guidelines, and I can caveat that with the fact there is no certainty in life, and things change. If others are 100% certain one way or another, then that is their decision. Maybe they'd be better spending time on medical health forums than golf ones though, if they want to chat to experts in the area.


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## Foxholer (Mar 2, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Getting tiring again.
...
		
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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 2, 2022)

For the first time almost since we recorded the first UK death at my trust we are Covid free in ICU. I am not sure how long that will last but you could see the affect it has had on everyone that has been on the frontline. We know it isn't the end of the war but we feel, just for now, we've won a major battle and we have time to get our breath, revalidate our learning, and enjoy the feeling of immense pride. There are still around 80 cases in the trust so .it is still there lurking in the background but for now, it is time to be positive


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## Ethan (Mar 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Getting tiring again.

For those who feel OK with restrictions, don't waste your breath. You'll try and provide an answer, it'll be ignored. Unless you are a certified medical professional, you have no idea anyway. You are just getting your information from the Sun or media health "experts" anyway. Did you know, a media health expert would come on to a show to explain why it was a BAD idea to lift vaccination requirements, but the producer would tell them to say it was a GOOD idea. I know it sounds strange, especially given the agenda of that show was very much to say every decision made since Covid began has been a disaster. Big u-turn by the TV channel.

I'm happy to say I'm comfortable with the current guidelines, and I can caveat that with the fact there is no certainty in life, and things change. If others are 100% certain one way or another, then that is their decision. Maybe they'd be better spending time on medical health forums than golf ones though, if they want to chat to experts in the area.
		
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You are just making yourself look even more foolish, but also a bit bitter. You should stop now.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 3, 2022)

Ethan said:



			You are just making yourself look even more foolish, but also a bit bitter. You should stop now.
		
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Cheers for your expert analysis as an expert psychologist. Much appreciated 

As had already been said by someone else, here we go again. And yes, it was my fault for even bothering to get involved again by trying to provide a possible answer to a question that was asked.

It is clear answers are not actually wanted. It has simply become a thread in which some people can come and have a moan about decisions being made, and then somehow believe that there is no good answer whatsoever on why a decision was made. Or, that the answer is some sort of conspiracy, such as a deflection tactic or whatever. Any plausible explanation is conveniently ignored, or flimsy excuses made to try and completely discredit that answer. 

So yes, I am a little bitter with myself that I even bothered getting involved. As I said, others are welcome to come to their own conclusions, nothing any of us say in a Golf Monthly forum is going to change the world.


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## bobmac (Mar 3, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			nothing any of us say in a Golf Monthly forum is going to change the world.
		
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Exactly. 
Global calamities invented by the media to scare people aren't going to scare me because I don't watch them.
And to those who spend large chunks of their day LOOKING for bad news, do yourself a favour, turn it all off, your blood pressure will thank you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2022)

And so from what I gather from what I have read.  The reason to remove the mandatory requirement for care workers to be vaccinated, despite there being benefits - albeit perhaps not that significant on an individual basis, but certainly valuable as a future new variant mitigation factor, would appear to be that the numbers leaving or being dismissed as a result of the requirement is the straw that is in danger of breaking the camel's back of resourcing.

The fact that care resourcing immediately pre-covid was in a perilous state, and why, is well understood.  The real issue is, it seems, therefore really the underlying pre-covid level of resourcing and not that some have left as a result of the vaccination requirement.  As the numbers have been relatively small (cf overall care resource numbers) removing the requirement will go some way to easing the crisis but it won't go anywhere near to fixing it - with the downside that we will lose the immediate and longer term benefits of vaccination.

Well I think that that is what I have read and deduced.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 3, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so from what I gather from what I have read.  The reason to remove the mandatory requirement for care workers to be vaccinated, despite there being benefits - albeit perhaps not that significant on an individual basis, but certainly valuable as a future new variant mitigation factor, would appear to be that the numbers leaving or being dismissed as a result of the requirement is the straw that is in danger of breaking the camel's back of resourcing.

The fact that care resourcing immediately pre-covid was in a perilous state, and why, is well understood.  The real issue is, it seems, therefore really the underlying pre-covid level of resourcing and not that some have left as a result of the vaccination requirement.  As the numbers have been relatively small (cf overall care resource numbers) removing the requirement will go some way to easing the crisis but it won't go anywhere near to fixing it - with the downside that we will lose the immediate and longer term benefits of vaccination.

Well I think that that is what I have read and deduced.
		
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Agree,.... broadly.

But will someone explain fully......please.
If a vaccinated person can still pick up the virus and( in the relevant circumstances...I'm envisaging a care worker attending a patient, I.e close contact) pass it on to someone else, why does it make a difference to the one to whom they've passed the virus whether the passer is vaccinated?
This is a genuine question....because if it doesn't make a difference, then why cannot a care worker carry on as such ( unvaccinated),even if they are risking their own health?

Now I believe folks should be vaccinated in order to be protected and to avoid putting pressure on NHS etc when becoming ( unnecessarily) seriously il. There is a societal duty there.

However, this is a somewhat different question - this is about the ability to infect others. Do you have less ability to do that, if you have the virus , because you are vaccinated.
Will those who say yes please explain why?


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## Backache (Mar 3, 2022)

It is different for different variants and the time since vaccination.
But the evidence suggests broadly that you are less likely to actually become infected if you are fully vaccinated and if you do become infected you are likely to shed virus for a shorter period of time and therefore less likely to infect others.
With Omicron the differences are smaller than with previous variants.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 5, 2022)

Tested positive today.
Feeling rough 🙁


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## williamalex1 (Mar 5, 2022)

We have 3 friends with Covid, 1 of them hasn't been out the house for weeks.
Thinks she has caught it from some parcel  delivery


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Tested positive today.
Feeling rough 🙁
		
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All the best!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2022)

Well well,

First weekend of proper plans in 2 years and it's out the window lol no biggy 

Mates 50th pulled out of
Batman Sunday cancelled 

Wife tested positive this morning 

I'm still negative

Off this weekend for first weekend since Nov and I'll test all weekend 

Twins negative. Eldest still at school , will have to test her tonight


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## Beezerk (Mar 11, 2022)

I’ve had a really bad cold, cough and sore throat for the last 3 days, tested negative twice so I’m just getting on with stuff.


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## AmandaJR (Mar 11, 2022)

I've been working this week at a small primary school. Our group of cyclists started at 15 and gradually depleted to 9 due to Covid. Yesterday the ONLY kids in a class of 21 without Covid were our hardy group of 9. Maybe reaping the benefits of being outside for a few hours rather than the classroom but pretty worrying it's still so rampant.

I tested negative yesterday but cancelled golf today just in case, as playing partner is older plus has a very poorly friend she visits.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 11, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			I've been working this week at a small primary school. Our group of cyclists started at 15 and gradually depleted to 9 due to Covid. Yesterday the ONLY kids in a class of 21 without Covid were our hardy group of 9. Maybe reaping the benefits of being outside for a few hours rather than the classroom but pretty worrying it's still so rampant.

I tested negative yesterday but cancelled golf today just in case, as playing partner is older plus has a very poorly friend she visits.
		
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my parents are offering to take the kids off us so the Mrs can recover

ive told them to stay away. my grandads in hospital surely his health is more important lol cut ties with us for a week ...  could do with the break lol


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 11, 2022)

Eventually my time has come. Felt rough at work. 
Text our lass as she was having friend round and I was going to a leaving due tonight.  
She’s asked what I’m cooking for tea since I’m home…


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## Tashyboy (Mar 11, 2022)

Not followed this thread for a bit. Seems like delta and omnicron have got married though 😖☹️watch this space
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...t-spreading-and-should-we-be-worried-12563165


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## GreiginFife (Mar 11, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Not followed this thread for a bit. Seems like delta and omnicron have got married though 😖☹️watch this space
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...t-spreading-and-should-we-be-worried-12563165

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Just keep the French out. 

It comes with more than just one benefit...


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 11, 2022)

A nice lull while it lasted but back up to 3 in ICU today all overnight.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 11, 2022)

I've had it a week now and my Wife's now got it.  Although not completely debilitating it's made us feel pretty rough:  headaches, chesty congestion, sore throat, blocked nose and weariness.   Of course I had the male version which was more severe but us guys don't talk about it and suffer in silence 🤧🤥


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2022)

Mrs first tested positive Friday 

We have tested the rest of us every day and all 4 of us are still negative

All the upstairs windows are open all day 

Kitchen window open 

When she joins us for kids meal times to help me she wears 2 masks

I took 3 days leave and I was leave for golf Thursday anyways so just cancelled that.

Defo makes a difference your income based on what you can do.. I mean if we were both losing money I'd have to go work and she would have to put the kids at risk ..tbh she can't cope as normal it's gone to her chest a bit so she just hiding away 

I've had 4 nights now just me and the girls at night lol new respect for the Mrs when I'm nights little... treasures..

Wife joins me for a social distance evening meal then disappears to the loft until morning 

Even though we legally don't have to do anything she's only left house once. We all went for a walk she stayed masked up whilst the kids got a change of location 

Eldest went school yest , nanny did a door pick up and drop off .. school policy is fine with her in and God it's made her stop climbing the walls 

If we can just get to the weekend all negative we know it was all worth it


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2022)

Definitely on the increase again even if the TV has reduced how much it talks about it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55279092

Very disturbing hike for Bracknell


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2022)

It will be interesting to see if the strategy of sticking fingers in ears and pretending it is not longer a problem works. The Deltacron variant is probably not a great concern but we will have to see if other variants emerge. The environment, with rising cases, waning immunity and a general abandonment of public health measures could be a combustible combination.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			It will be interesting to see if the strategy of sticking fingers in ears and pretending it is not longer a problem works. The Deltacron variant is probably not a great concern but we will have to see if other variants emerge. The environment, with rising cases, waning immunity and a general abandonment of public health measures could be a combustible combination.
		
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It's definitely for me become your actions you personally take afters depends on your job / home situation 

Both our jobs want us to isolate and will pay us 

Can afford to take tests and offered them via work so can still get them 

Have parents local who will help pick up shopping etc if needed 

If it's somebody who £20 for tests or a days pay means no food that week will they do the test or not go in?

Wife did test Thursday negative, only because she felt awful Friday did she do another 
..Thursday she always tests as she works 3 days then takes girls groups etc and doesn't want to spread


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## GB72 (Mar 15, 2022)

Looks like masks on flights are on their way out, just in time for my first time off in over two and a half years. Did not fancy 9 hours on a flight with a mask on but would have done what was necessary.


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## D-S (Mar 15, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Looks like masks on flights are on their way out, just in time for my first time off in over two and a half years. Did not fancy 9 hours on a flight with a mask on but would have done what was necessary.
		
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Just took my first flights for two years. Despite repeated requests/warnings that masks must be worn at all times except when actively eating or drinking, there were still some not wearing. The staff never said anything directly to them even when checking their boarding passes on boarding and giving the maskless free disinfective wipes or taking drinks orders from them etc. This was our national airline.


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2022)

Some coverage in the media of a paper in Nature showing data from the UK Biobank that brain atrophy (shrinkage) is seen in some people who had mild or symptomatic Covid. brain atrophy is a feature of neurodegenerative conditions ranging from MS to dementia.

I have previously mentioned this subclinical inflammatory change as a concern, and data exists for similar effects in the heart, kidneys and liver, and in kids in the pancreas. I suspect we are likely to see a greater incidence of premature organ failure in the population in all these categories in the short to medium term. This arises because Covid has two phases. One is the respiratory pneumonia type disease, which starts early, and the other is the inflammatory reaction that typically starts around Day 8, as a result of a mis-directed immunological response to primary infection. 

The problem is that the two need not be proportional. Many patients with a severe Covid pneumonia seem to be doing OK, then deteriorate after Day 8 and end up dying of multi-organ failure. But a mild infection can result in a strong inflammatory reaction and the cytokines sent out by the immune system can damage other organs in a manner that is not immediately apparent unless an MRI or cardiac ultrasound is done. But the organ is damaged and unable to properly respond to another insult. Shane Warne recently died of a heart attack aged 52. When I was a lad, a lot of people died of heart attacks in the 50s, but in recent years that number has dropped significantly. Warne had Covid, bad enough for an ICU visit, last summer. I suspect that inflammatory cardiac damage could have contributed to his death. 

This is one, but not the only, reason I think that herd immunity, learn to live with it and other 'its just a cold' ideas are dangerous and we have a possible time-bomb of pathology waiting for us.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some coverage in the media of a paper in Nature showing data from the UK Biobank that brain atrophy (shrinkage) is seen in some people who had mild or symptomatic Covid. brain atrophy is a feature of neurodegenerative conditions ranging from MS to dementia.

I have previously mentioned this subclinical inflammatory change as a concern, and data exists for similar effects in the heart, kidneys and liver, and in kids in the pancreas. I suspect we are likely to see a greater incidence of premature organ failure in the population in all these categories in the short to medium term. This arises because Covid has two phases. One is the respiratory pneumonia type disease, which starts early, and the other is the inflammatory reaction that typically starts around Day 8, as a result of a mis-directed immunological response to primary infection.

The problem is that the two need not be proportional. Many patients with a severe Covid pneumonia seem to be doing OK, then deteriorate after Day 8 and end up dying of multi-organ failure. But a mild infection can result in a strong inflammatory reaction and the cytokines sent out by the immune system can damage other organs in a manner that is not immediately apparent unless an MRI or cardiac ultrasound is done. But the organ is damaged and unable to properly respond to another insult. Shane Warne recently died of a heart attack aged 52. When I was a lad, a lot of people died of heart attacks in the 50s, but in recent years that number has dropped significantly. Warne had Covid, bad enough for an ICU visit, last summer. I suspect that inflammatory cardiac damage could have contributed to his death.

This is one, but not the only, reason I think that herd immunity, learn to live with it and other 'its just a cold' ideas are dangerous and we have a possible time-bomb of pathology waiting for us.
		
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People wonder why we have an increase in "crowd incidents" at football games etc 

Everyone is happy to rush to blame the vaccine but slow to clock that it's more likely actual covid side effects


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Some coverage in the media of a paper in Nature showing data from the UK Biobank that brain atrophy (shrinkage) is seen in some people who had mild or symptomatic Covid. brain atrophy is a feature of neurodegenerative conditions ranging from MS to dementia.

I have previously mentioned this subclinical inflammatory change as a concern, and data exists for similar effects in the heart, kidneys and liver, and in kids in the pancreas. I suspect we are likely to see a greater incidence of premature organ failure in the population in all these categories in the short to medium term. This arises because Covid has two phases. One is the respiratory pneumonia type disease, which starts early, and the other is the inflammatory reaction that typically starts around Day 8, as a result of a mis-directed immunological response to primary infection.

The problem is that the two need not be proportional. Many patients with a severe Covid pneumonia seem to be doing OK, then deteriorate after Day 8 and end up dying of multi-organ failure. But a mild infection can result in a strong inflammatory reaction and the cytokines sent out by the immune system can damage other organs in a manner that is not immediately apparent unless an MRI or cardiac ultrasound is done. But the organ is damaged and unable to properly respond to another insult. Shane Warne recently died of a heart attack aged 52. When I was a lad, a lot of people died of heart attacks in the 50s, but in recent years that number has dropped significantly. Warne had Covid, bad enough for an ICU visit, last summer. I suspect that inflammatory cardiac damage could have contributed to his death.

This is one, but not the only, reason I think that herd immunity, learn to live with it and other 'its just a cold' ideas are dangerous and we have a possible time-bomb of pathology waiting for us.
		
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I agree. I'm also convinced that, with further recognition of the after effects of Covid (currently termed 'Long Covid'), there'll be more research and subsequent treatment of many, or at least some, of those effects.


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## Foxholer (Mar 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			People wonder why we have an increase in "crowd incidents" at football games etc

Everyone is happy to rush to blame the vaccine but slow to clock that it's more likely actual covid side effects
		
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Or maybe just idiotic football 'fans'!


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I agree. I'm also convinced that, with further recognition of the after effects of Covid (currently termed 'Long Covid'), there'll be more research and subsequent treatment of many, or at least some, of those effects.
		
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Long Covid is probably a separate issue, more of a chronic phase following original infection, and in some people improved by vaccination, which may reset the immune system. 

Subclinical damage was first observed in some US college basketball players when cardiac ultrasounds after they had an outbreak showed impairment of cardiac function. None of them had any symptoms. Some observations of higher rates of childhood Type I Diabetes (not the too many pies version) in areas of higher Covid prevalence possibly associated with pancreatic damage. Similar for brain as linked above and renal effects.

You have probably all heard of sepsis. This is usually interpreted as serious overwhelming infection, but in fact sepsis is really the same type of systemic inflammatory condition causing damage to various organs and often multi-organ failure and death. It is triggered by infection that causes an excessive immune reaction. So it is pretty similar to what can happen with Covid.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 15, 2022)

on my second dose of the lurgy. I guess it is omicrom. Has been like a normal flu type cold again, albeit less severe than the Delta one. I suspect the numbers of infections alluded to above are massively underestimating the numbers as most people are not reporting them - and i have heard several people say they are not even testing. I have not even looked at the numbers as they seem pointless at the moment.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 15, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			on my second dose of the lurgy. I guess it is omicrom. Has been like a normal flu type cold again, albeit less severe than the Delta one. I suspect the numbers of infections alluded to above are massively underestimating the numbers as most people are not reporting them - and i have heard several people say they are not even testing. I have not even looked at the numbers as they seem pointless at the moment.
		
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Got all the classic flu like symptoms - temperature, aches, tiredness but the LFT's say NO. Put my weekly PCR test in work in today so see what that says tomorrow


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## Tashyboy (Mar 15, 2022)

GB72 said:



			Looks like masks on flights are on their way out, just in time for my first time off in over two and a half years. Did not fancy 9 hours on a flight with a mask on but would have done what was necessary.
		
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Came back from Lanzarote yesterday. I don’t get it. In the airport you have to wear masks, on the transfer bus, Masks. On the plane you don’t have to wear mask so some didn’t. Get back to East Midlands and the airport passport control was rammed.Yet 75% of folk had taken off there masks. As soon as folk are given an option. Most don’t wear. Sat on the plane and there were half a dozen folk with a nigh on constant cough.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 15, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Came back from Lanzarote yesterday.* I don’t get it.* In the airport you have to wear masks, on the transfer bus, Masks. On the plane you don’t have to wear mask so some didn’t. Get back to East Midlands and the airport passport control was rammed.Yet 75% of folk had taken off there masks. As soon as folk are given an option. Most don’t wear. Sat on the plane and there were half a dozen folk with a nigh on constant cough.
		
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The mask doesn't stop you getting it, it stops you passing it on.  If enough people are not wearing them then those who would normally wear them are possibly thinking "Why should I bother if they don't?" and have probably had enough of the judgemental looks they get because they are wearing a mask.


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## Ethan (Mar 15, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			The mask doesn't stop you getting it, it stops you passing it on.  If enough people are not wearing them then those who would normally wear them are possibly thinking "Why should I bother if they don't?" and have probably had enough of the judgemental looks they get because they are wearing a mask.
		
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The mask has a greater effect on stopping you passing it on, but it does have some effect on protecting you too.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 15, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			The mask doesn't stop you getting it, it stops you passing it on.  If enough people are not wearing them then those who would normally wear them are possibly thinking "Why should I bother if they don't?" and have probably had enough of the judgemental looks they get because they are wearing a mask.
		
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Some of those coughing were not wearing masks but wore them when they had to.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 15, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			The mask doesn't stop you getting it, it stops you passing it on.  If enough people are not wearing them then those who would normally wear them are possibly thinking "Why should I bother if they don't?" and have probably had enough of the judgemental looks they get because they are wearing a mask.
		
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I don't believe that's correct. The filtering effect will have an efficiacy breathing in and out.  Also, if everyone/most are wearing them then the amount of airborne virus being transmitted will be restricted so masks will cope better with inbound filtration.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 15, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's definitely for me become your actions you personally take afters depends on your job / home situation

Both our jobs want us to isolate and will pay us
		
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Just emailed my Union Rep earlier what the current policy is. All I heard was five days from my manager.  

His reply was I can return in five days following a negative but can’t return until negative. Pay/Shift pay and enhancements unaffected and won’t show as sickness period. 

Not a massive fan of Unions, but they have their uses for negotiating that!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Just emailed my Union Rep earlier what the current policy is. All I heard was five days from my manager. 

His reply was I can return in five days following a negative but can’t return until negative. Pay/Shift pay and enhancements unaffected and won’t show as sickness period.

Not a massive fan of Unions, but they have their uses for negotiating that!
		
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Well it's not 5 days tho, it's a test on day 5 and 6

This 5 days was just a head line, need negative test both days 5 Nd 6 Mrs is doing her day 5 now 

But yes it's good they agreed..suits companies tho. Just lose 1 person for a week or have them infect the entire staff?


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Ah now eldest has tested positive.

Assume it's from the wife having it rather than school

Proof you can't be too careful as 2 masks, windows open , keeping away from her only worked for 5 days


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Well it's not 5 days tho, it's a test on day 5 and 6

This 5 days was just a head line, need negative test both days 5 Nd 6 Mrs is doing her day 5 now
		
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Different places seem to have different rules in place. My younger son at primary school would be allowed to return immediately after a negative test, even if that was on day three (for example) after the positive result. My older son at high school has to have negative results on day five and six to go back. Failing that it's two consecutive negative tests up to days nine and ten. Even if still testing positive on day ten he's allowed back.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Different places seem to have different rules in place. My younger son at primary school would be allowed to return immediately after a negative test, even if that was on day three (for example) after the positive result. My older son at high school has to have negative results on day five and six to go back. Failing that it's two consecutive negative tests up to days nine and ten. Even if still testing positive on day ten he's allowed back.
		
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I'll find out our policy when I phone the school in a min 

Cinema and meal out cancelled for Sunday (had moved from last week)

Had booked an MRI for My knee for Sunday morning so best let them know , I guess they won't want me to attend


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## SammmeBee (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Well it's not 5 days tho, it's a test on day 5 and 6

This 5 days was just a head line, need negative test both days 5 Nd 6 Mrs is doing her day 5 now

But yes it's good they agreed..suits companies tho. Just lose 1 person for a week or have them infect the entire staff?
		
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It’s not 5 days at all….it’s 0 days….


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I'll find out our policy when I phone the school in a min

Cinema and meal out cancelled for Sunday (had moved from last week)

Had booked an MRI for My knee for Sunday morning so best let them know , I guess they won't want me to attend
		
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Older son tested positive last week and got it confirmed with a PCR test. Mrs Colch then tested positive on Monday this week. Me and younger son are still testing negative so he's going to school. Was due to go to parents evening last night but phoned the school to see what they wanted to do and they asked me to do a phone call rather than go in to the school.


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## yandabrown (Mar 16, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Older son tested positive last week and got it confirmed with a PCR test. Mrs Colch then tested positive on Monday this week. Me and younger son are still testing negative so he's going to school. Was due to go to parents evening last night but phoned the school to see what they wanted to do and they asked me to do a phone call rather than go in to the school.
		
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I really liked the on line video sessions for parent's evenings, seemed to go very smoothly. I hope they are kept. HID is still testing negative, everyone else still clear 🤞


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Well it's not 5 days tho, it's a test on day 5 and 6

This 5 days was just a head line, need negative test both days 5 Nd 6 Mrs is doing her day 5 now

But yes it's good they agreed..suits companies tho. Just lose 1 person for a week or have them infect the entire staff?
		
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It is 0 days. No legal requirement to isolate can go to work if positive.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			It is 0 days. No legal requirement to isolate can go to work if positive.
		
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I appreciate that but the "5 day" was never an actual thing it was a headline maker 

It was always a test on day 5 Nd 6 .. then release if negative on both 

So was always least 6 days.


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## SteveW86 (Mar 16, 2022)

Currently nearing the end of my first Covid case. Not been too bad, annoying cough and a bit of a headache has been the worst of it. Wife and daughter also positive, so been a case of balancing the parenting whilst working from home. 

Very faint positive line today (7 days since positive PCR), so hopefully can get back out into the wild tomorrow.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			Currently nearing the end of my first Covid case. Not been too bad, annoying cough and a bit of a headache has been the worst of it. Wife and daughter also positive, so been a case of balancing the parenting whilst working from home.

Very faint positive line today (7 days since positive PCR), so hopefully can get back out into the wild tomorrow.
		
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Not that it overly matters as it's legally do what you want now but the guidance which is now advise not law is 

2 completely negative LFT 24 hours apart any day up until day 10 

So today that faint line is still postive so you need tomorrow and the next to come out 

Until you done a full 10 days so day 11 you come out regardless 

However that's not legal anymore so you can come out whenever you feel ur not a risk or feel safe


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## Tashyboy (Mar 16, 2022)

Popped out today, called into Aldi on the way home, an ex Pal from work shouted me. We both had out masks on. As he got five yards  away he says “ two flippin years and I finally get COVID”. “ Eh” I said. “ PCR test came through as positive on Sunday”. His Missis is not to good with it. Lo and behold he saw another couple and shouted hi to them.She came over a minute or so later returning her trolley. I quickly said me cheerios and walked to Lidl next door. Them two were having a natter, she without a mask. As I came back from Lidl he was walking from Aldi to LIDL to go shopping. 
Me my thoughts on going shopping without a mask are known, but going out when you know you have COVID. I know the government have said you can but 🤬


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Popped out today, called into Aldi on the way home, an ex Pal from work shouted me. We both had out masks on. As he got five yards  away he says “ two flippin years and I finally get COVID”. “ Eh” I said. “ PCR test came through as positive on Sunday”. His Missis is not to good with it. Lo and behold he saw another couple and shouted hi to them.She came over a minute or so later returning her trolley. I quickly said me cheerios and walked to Lidl next door. Them two were having a natter, she without a mask. As I came back from Lidl he was walking from Aldi to LIDL to go shopping.
Me my thoughts on going shopping without a mask are known, but going out when you know you have COVID. I know the government have said you can but 🤬
		
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It's just where people draw the line personally tash ..

That's the problem with it all. Leaving it up to the public means you get 1000s of diff standards 

For example if I tested positive tomorrow I could go work .. I won't because my work will let me isolate but If I couldn't afford it would be a difference choice 

Shopping wise we click and collect or delivery due to time 

Now if I was postive I'd click and collect still but id say to the person doing shopping to keep their distance and wipe down the boxes afters 

Where as before that would be a no no legally


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			It's just where people draw the line personally tash ..

That's the problem with it all. Leaving it up to the public means you get 1000s of diff standards

For example if I tested positive tomorrow I could go work .. I won't because my work will let me isolate but If I couldn't afford it would be a difference choice

Shopping wise we click and collect or delivery due to time

Now if I was postive I'd click and collect still but id say to the person doing shopping to keep their distance and wipe down the boxes afters

Where as before that would be a no no legally
		
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We are still operating a two clear LFT requirement which considering where I work makes perfect sense. Of course should I test positive I could happily wander to the golf club and have a game and a few beers. I wouldn't as a lot of our members are seniors and a few of the regular guys I play with have medical conditions and I wouldn't want them getting infected and worrying it was me. As it turns out my PCR game back negative so clearly just run down or suffering from another virus


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## Tashyboy (Mar 16, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We are still operating a two clear LFT requirement which considering where I work makes perfect sense. Of course should I test positive I could happily wander to the golf club and have a game and a few beers. I wouldn't as a lot of our members are seniors and a few of the regular guys I play with have medical conditions and I wouldn't want them getting infected and worrying it was me. As it turns out my PCR game back negative so clearly just run down or suffering from another virus
		
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Odd thing is I took granddaughter to karate tonight. Her second time there. The main instructor has Covid. He went but stayed 10 yds away outside making sure everyone else stayed away. Second person today Ave seen out with Covid. But at least he let everyone know before hand to keep there distance.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 16, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Odd thing is I took granddaughter to karate tonight. Her second time there. The main instructor has Covid. He went but stayed 10 yds away outside making sure everyone else stayed away. Second person today Ave seen out with Covid. But at least he let everyone know before hand to keep there distance.
		
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Let's be honest tash I doubt the karate class has a decent sick pay

How many plumbers, builders, sparkies are gonna be willing to take the hit in wages with zero support money wise


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## Tashyboy (Mar 16, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Let's be honest tash I doubt the karate class has a decent sick pay

How many plumbers, builders, sparkies are gonna be willing to take the hit in wages with zero support money wise
		
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Am Not sure it’s his main income as there is a few that do it between them. Daughter told me yesterday he had Covid and someone else was taking it.


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## IainP (Mar 16, 2022)

Guy I was due to tee it up with on Saturday has cancelled as has Covid. In his words, he properly has it also.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 16, 2022)

Natural immunity discussion worth a watch


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## Foxholer (Mar 17, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Natural immunity discussion worth a watch







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Well, given that you are on your 2nd 'natural' infection, you seem to be somewhat contradicting his argument!
Aka...How come your 'natural immunity' didn't work?!
And that still doesn't address the longer term effects of Covid!


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## RichA (Mar 17, 2022)

Fewer kids now, but 19 out of 80 teachers at MrsA's school are currently off with symptoms and positive tests. There was a parents' evening last week, before which only a handful had it.


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Natural immunity discussion worth a watch







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Campbell is a well intentioned old duffer, but he really doesn't know what he is talking about. He doesn't know what endemicity means and his approach to epidemiology is laughable. He contradicts himself several times in that video. 

The idea that "natural immunity" is better than vaccine-induced immunity has been shown to be false. And immunity isn't all about antibodies, or antibody titres. 

What he fails to understand is what is known as the healthy survivor bias, testing people post-infection can only be done in those who are still here and available for testing. It also ignores the issue of longer effects of "natural infection" including inflammatory effects. Shane Warne thought he survived Covid, but he may not have really done so. 

I would advise people to continue to avoid getting infected if they can.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 17, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Campbell is a well intentioned old duffer, but he really doesn't know what he is talking about. He doesn't know what endemicity means and his approach to epidemiology is laughable. He contradicts himself several times in that video.

The idea that "natural immunity" is better than vaccine-induced immunity has been shown to be false. And immunity isn't all about antibodies, or antibody titres.

What he fails to understand is what is known as the healthy survivor bias, testing people post-infection can only be done in those who are still here and available for testing. It also ignores the issue of longer effects of "natural infection" including inflammatory effects. Shane Warne thought he survived Covid, but he may not have really done so.

I would advise people to continue to avoid getting infected if they can.
		
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When is speads as easily as it does, like measles I read somewhere, and probably ly 1 in 10 or 15 or so of the population currently infected, o doubt most people can avoid it without severely curtailing normal life. What is the estimate of the % of population that had so far had it? Probably not possible to be any way certain but I would guess it has to be 75% or maybe a chunk more. I don't see it going away in the next few years


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## Foxholer (Mar 17, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			...What is the estimate of the % of population that had so far had it? Probably not possible to be any way certain but I would guess it has to be 75% or maybe a chunk more. I don't see it going away in the next few years
		
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19M UK cases reported, so even allowing for the non-reporting, 75% seems a significant overstatement.
I only know a couple of folk who have had it, but that's hardly a random sample. Finding out what percentage of your work or Golf Club colleagues have had it might be a, marginally, better sample?
As for it (not) going away...The current 'live with it' approach virtually guarantees it'll persist!


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			When is speads as easily as it does, like measles I read somewhere, and probably ly 1 in 10 or 15 or so of the population currently infected, o doubt most people can avoid it without severely curtailing normal life. What is the estimate of the % of population that had so far had it? Probably not possible to be any way certain but I would guess it has to be 75% or maybe a chunk more. I don't see it going away in the next few years
		
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Measles is particularly infectious, R around 12-15, and has nasty neurological complications but confers pretty good immunity afterwards. 

Omicron probably comes close in terms of infectiousness, and clearly there is a lot of it around, and with the reduction in community testing, we won't reliably know, and the acute manifestations are relatively mild, although we don't yet know what the longer term manifestations are. 

Covid probably won't go away, possibly ever, so we were always heading to a place where the vet majority had adequate proaction to "live with it". The main variables in that equation are vaccine effectiveness and clinical complications of infection.

The problem I have with this use of "endemic" is that many people, possibly including Campbell, have a notion that means largely harmless. Ebola is endemic in some parts of Africa, and is not harmless. 

The other issue is that looking at Omicron may give a rose-coloured view of the future. The next variant may not be so mild. There is even some evidence that the BA.2 strain of Omicron has a higher hospitalisation rate than BA.1.


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## DRW (Mar 17, 2022)

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 11 (publishing.service.gov.uk)


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## road2ruin (Mar 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			19M UK cases reported, so even allowing for the non-reporting, 75% seems a significant overstatement.
*I only know a couple of folk who have had it, but that's hardly a random sample*. Finding out what percentage of your work or Golf Club colleagues have had it might be a, marginally, better sample?
As for it (not) going away...The current 'live with it' approach virtually guarantees it'll persist!
		
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I guess it depends on lifestage etc, I barely know anyone who hasn't had it with most having had it 2 or 3 times.


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## DRW (Mar 17, 2022)

Interesting to compare,  immunity by infection, one dose, 2 dose and 3 doses, on infections. Clearly severe stuff, alot better than above.


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## DRW (Mar 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			19M UK cases reported, so even allowing for the non-reporting, 75% seems a significant overstatement.
I only know a couple of folk who have had it, but that's hardly a random sample. Finding out what percentage of your work or Golf Club colleagues have had it might be a, marginally, better sample?
As for it (not) going away...The current 'live with it' approach virtually guarantees it'll persist!
		
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Only mad people think this is going away. Zerocovid or near zerocovid was a dream once it was out of the box. People who think this can be controlled by 'normal' controls such as the current vaccines, masks and a bit of social distancing are dreamers.

Have a look at places like Hong Kong, South Korea etc now.

Hong Kong is quite a sad case actually, as their vaccine coverage is poor in the elderly, unlike say New Zealand which has large cases but alot less deaths, as vaccine coverage is better in the most vunerable.

It pains me to type the above btw.

Wish I hadnt click on this thread link again and see the same kind of posts 2 years on, off to hide under my stone now


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## PNWokingham (Mar 17, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			I guess it depends on lifestage etc, I barely know anyone who hasn't had it with most having had it 2 or 3 times.
		
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I am the same. Neraly all kids have probably been infected. For instance my nepphew had 12 kids with it one day last week. We are on our second dose - and tbh, would not be surprised if we had it before the fits delta one. I don't know many people that have not had it


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## Ethan (Mar 17, 2022)

DRW said:



			Only mad people think this is going away. Zerocovid or near zerocovid was a dream once it was out of the box. People who think this can be controlled by 'normal' controls such as the current vaccines, masks and a bit of social distancing are dreamers.

Have a look at places like Hong Kong, South Korea etc now.

Hong Kong is quite a sad case actually, as their vaccine coverage is poor in the elderly, unlike say New Zealand which has large cases but alot less deaths, as vaccine coverage is better in the most vunerable.

It pains me to type the above btw.

Wish I hadnt click on this thread link again and see the same kind of posts 2 years on, off to hide under my stone now

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Well, it isn't dreaming to think it can be temporarily delayed by social distancing etc. It can. But that delay needs to be used to get vaccination rates up as high as possible. Some countries did that well, others not so much. Then the impact of that infection is very different.

Nobody in our house has tested positive despite many LFTs and a few PCRs, going to school and a mixture of office work, cinema, eating out, shopping etc.


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## Foxholer (Mar 17, 2022)

DRW said:



			Only mad people think this is going away. Zerocovid or near zerocovid was a dream once it was out of the box. People who think this can be controlled by 'normal' controls such as the current vaccines, masks and a bit of social distancing are dreamers.

Have a look at places like Hong Kong, South Korea etc now.

Hong Kong is quite a sad case actually, as their vaccine coverage is poor in the elderly, unlike say New Zealand which has large cases but alot less deaths, as vaccine coverage is better in the most vunerable.

It pains me to type the above btw.

Wish I hadnt click on this thread link again and see the same kind of posts 2 years on, off to hide under my stone now

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Hong Kong was a disaster waiting to happen with 7.5m on a tiny island! NZ certainly inhibited it well, but easy to do as an island well used to preventing diseases (like Foot and Mouth) from entering the country. But resolved to take the 'Isolate and prevent by vax' routes until recently. Death count has more than doubled, but that's about 10 of 20k plus cases per day. With luck (not really), some of those might even be vax-deniers!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 17, 2022)

Still waiting to get it. Crazy considering where I work and how much of it is around and then adding in a daily commute home. Not complaining mind.


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## Backache (Mar 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Hong Kong was a disaster waiting to happen with 7.5m on a tiny island! NZ certainly inhibited it well, but easy to do as an island well used to preventing diseases (like Foot and Mouth) from entering the country. But resolved to take the 'Isolate and prevent by vax' routes until recently. Death count has more than doubled, but that's about 10 of 20k plus cases per day. With luck (not really), some of those might even be vax-deniers!
		
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Hong Kong actually has a pretty good public health service and is not an Island though it is densly populated. It actually coped very well with the first wave but sadly appears to have lost it's confidence in vaccination amongst the elderly.


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## RichA (Mar 17, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Still waiting to get it. Crazy considering where I work and how much of it is around and then adding in a daily commute home. Not complaining mind.
		
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It is strange.
Mrs A teaches secondary school - a practical subject, so since lockdown she's been in close proximity to the kids. 
I commute by train and underground for 3.5 hours a day. I worked throughout in a job that forced me to mingle with the masses more than I'd think is ideal. 
Neither of us has knowingly had it.
Yet.
🤞


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## theoneandonly (Mar 17, 2022)

RichA said:



			It is strange.
Mrs A teaches secondary school - a practical subject, so since lockdown she's been in close proximity to the kids.
I commute by train and underground for 3.5 hours a day. I worked throughout in a job that forced me to mingle with the masses more than I'd think is ideal.
Neither of us has knowingly had it.
Yet.
🤞
		
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2 of my kids had it at Christmas and didn't pass it onto me or Mrs and neither isolated . Then I came down with it this Monday but thus far Mrs hasn't.


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## RichA (Mar 17, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			2 of my kids had it at Christmas and didn't pass it onto me or Mrs and neither isolated . Then I came down with it this Monday but thus far Mrs hasn't.
		
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I honestly think it's just down to good/bad luck. 
My two primary school age nephews had it consecutively a couple of months ago. BiL and SiL managed to avoid catching it from them. 
A few weeks later BiL caught it.
Two weeks after that SiL caught it.
Weird.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 17, 2022)

RichA said:



			I honestly think it's just down to *good/bad luck.*
My two primary school age nephews had it consecutively a couple of months ago. BiL and SiL managed to avoid catching it from them.
A few weeks later BiL caught it.
Two weeks after that SiL caught it.
Weird.
		
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If it's not luck then there certainly seems to be a randomness about it and who gets it. Or maybe it's not luck or randomness and at some point they'll discover a reason some get it and others don't. In November my younger boy (aged 10 so unjabbed) caught it, followed by me (double jabbed) five days later and then Mrs Colch (also double jabbed) two days after that. Older son (aged 12 but unjabbed at the time) didn't catch it despite us not being overly careful about distancing/isolating from him.

Last week on Wednesday older son (now 13 and single jabbed) caught it. On Monday Mrs Colch (now double jabbed, plus immunity from last infection, plus booster dose) tested positive. Younger son (still unjabbed) has tested negative throughout and I've also tested negative (double jabbed, plus immunity from last infection, plus booster dose). And again we haven't been that careful about distancing other than I've had the younger boy sleeping in with me while Mrs Colch has his room.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Still waiting to get it. Crazy considering where I work and how much of it is around and then adding in a daily commute home. Not complaining mind.
		
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My Wife and I caught it just over a week ago.  We have no idea where we caught it and have been very careful when out.  She has recovered quite well but I'm struggling somewhat with headaches and congestion. I really don't recommend it.  I know so many people who have caught it recently.


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## fenwayrich (Mar 17, 2022)

I've been at the Cheltenham festival with a friend. He tested positive last evening so I've come home. I've had four jabs, negative so far. Fingers crossed.
There were 60,000 people there, so it's no surprise that the numbers are growing again. I just hope that the vaccine prevents cases from being too serious.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 17, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			I've been at the Cheltenham festival with a friend. He tested positive last evening so I've come home. I've had four jabs, negative so far. Fingers crossed.
There were 60,000 people there, so it's no surprise that the numbers are growing again. I just hope that the vaccine prevents cases from being too serious.
		
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Another superspreader event just like two years ago.


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## Foxholer (Mar 18, 2022)

fenwayrich said:



			I've been at the Cheltenham festival with a friend. He tested positive last evening so I've come home. I've had four jabs, negative so far. Fingers crossed.
There were 60,000 people there, so it's no surprise that the numbers are growing again. I just hope that the vaccine prevents cases from being too serious.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Another superspreader event just like two years ago.
		
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Just hastening the 'Living with it by gaining antigens' process!


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## PNWokingham (Mar 18, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Just hastening the 'Living with it by gaining antigens' process!
		
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best cancel everything and prime the milk man to deliver extra orange juice. That should do the trick.


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## Scoobiesnax (Mar 18, 2022)

So I eventually got my first dose of Covid; 2 weeks ago - may have got it from the postponed Christmas works drinks in London or the kids party I took my son to the day after.  Had a little fatigue and a slight runny nose (genuinely had worse colds!).  My wife had a full blown cold with a cough (not persistent) and had tested negative all the way through (including a PCR test) - she initially worked from home for 2 days just in disbelief that I had tested positive and was basically OK, and she was a walking infection!  She tested negative the Sunday before going back to work on the Monday.  My young lad (5 years old) had no signs of having it, so we didn't test him as he gets very very upset when we try and put the rod thingy down his throat or anywhere near his nose!

PS: the wife and I have had 3 jabs. Oh and I worked from home as the business didn't want me anywhere near the place


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			My Wife and I caught it just over a week ago.  We have no idea where we caught it and have been very careful when out.  She has recovered quite well but I'm struggling somewhat with headaches and congestion. I really don't recommend it.  I know so many people who have caught it recently.
		
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PCR this week was negative but I'm feeling totally fatigued. Played golf today on the back of another negative LFT this morning but felt dead on my feet by the 14th. Getting headaches and aches similar to when a cold is oncoming and feel totally out of sorts. I appreciated there are loads of bugs out there so important not to default to the "must be Covid" but one of my staff was positive this time last week and we'd spent an hour in a 1-2-1 meeting. Even had a Berocca table this morning.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 18, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			PCR this week was negative but I'm feeling totally fatigued. Played golf today on the back of another negative LFT this morning but felt dead on my feet by the 14th. Getting headaches and aches similar to when a cold is oncoming and feel totally out of sorts. I appreciated there are loads of bugs out there so important not to default to the "must be Covid" but one of my staff was positive this time last week and we'd spent an hour in a 1-2-1 meeting. Even had a Berocca table this morning.
		
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Hope you stay clear of it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 18, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Hope you stay clear of it.
		
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Me too although primarily for HID as she has a number of serious underlying conditions so wouldn't want her to catch it


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## Reemul (Mar 18, 2022)

All 4 of us have been unwell this week, lost of testing all negative, Yesterday my wife got steroids and anti bacs. Tonight Myself, wife and youngest tested positive, the eldest still negative. Wife is very chesty. I have got progessively worse, now have bad cough, blocked up, headache and generally feeling crap.


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## fenwayrich (Mar 20, 2022)

Went to the Cheltenham Festival with a friend last week, he was full of cold, coughing etc but had tested negative. On Wednesday evening before we went for a meal he was persuaded to take another test which was positive. I came straight home, OK for a few days but, despite four jabs, I have just tested positive this morning. No headache or loss of smell, just like a normal mild cold. I haven't had any respiratory illness for two years, so I have been lucky.

There were over 60,000 people at Cheltenham for four days, and a lot of the time they will have been indoors. Can't help feeling that there will be a significant increase in numbers due to events like this. Hopefully the vaccine, while not preventing the disease, will lessen its impact for the vast majority.


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## Reemul (Mar 20, 2022)

Feeling worse than ever today, last 2 nights have not been able to sleep due to coughing. Throat is agony, nose goes from runny to blocked, no taste or smell and absolutely shattered. My wife is not as badly affected. My eldest still testing negative but he has started having symptoms and my youngest is showing no symptoms but positive. My sister in law tested positive today and her 7 year old yesterday. Another nephew tested positive this morning.

It is great that for many it is not bad but I am wondering what it would have been for me if I had not had all 3 jabs cause I really feel like crap


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 20, 2022)

My covid experience last week was woke up with some throat clearance and a runny nose. Not unusual but I looked pale in the mirror. Quick blow of the nose and off to work. 
While at work as the day went on I felt more fatigued than usual, a little floppy. 
Got home and did a test. Line showed slightly but dissapeared, did another from a different box. Very faint line. A few hours later heavily fatigued, went to bed and were freezing. 
As the night went on I got lucid sweaty fever dreams. The next day I spent all day in bed asleep or sensory deprived with my eyes shut as pretty fatigued.
Third day, almost back to normal just made sure I had a long sweaty nap. 
Headachey, heavy sinuses, fever and fatigue were my symptoms. No painkillers as they mess with my stomach but effervescent vitamins and lots more water on top.


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## pokerjoke (Mar 20, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			My covid experience last week was woke up with some throat clearance and a runny nose. Not unusual but I looked pale in the mirror. Quick blow of the nose and off to work.
While at work as the day went on I felt more fatigued than usual, a little floppy.
Got home and did a test. Line showed slightly but dissapeared, did another from a different box. Very faint line. A few hours later heavily fatigued, went to bed and were freezing.
As the night went on I got lucid sweaty fever dreams. The next day I spent all day in bed asleep or sensory deprived with my eyes shut as pretty fatigued.
Third day, almost back to normal just made sure I had a long sweaty nap.
Headachey, heavy sinuses, fever and fatigue were my symptoms. No painkillers as they mess with my stomach but effervescent vitamins and lots more water on top.
		
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A mild flu then


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## pokerjoke (Mar 20, 2022)

Wife’s been poorly for 4 days
Tested positive Thursday,Friday,Saturday negative today.
However still feels poorly 
Confused.com
If I get I’ll I’m not testing I’m just going to let it take it’s course.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 20, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			A mild flu then
		
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I had flu in 2016 and I remember it well. Absolutely dreadful. 

The lack of snot, blocked nose or sore throat for me with covid made it pretty bearable. If anything I enjoyed my time in bed bar the full head headache. The problem is you don’t know what to expect. You think oh is this it, or will it get worse. 

8 out of 10 would have again if symptoms were the same.


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## Billysboots (Mar 20, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			I had flu in 2016 and I remember it well. Absolutely dreadful.

The lack of snot, blocked nose or sore throat for me with covid made it pretty bearable. If anything I enjoyed my time in bed bar the full head headache. The problem is you don’t know what to expect. You think oh is this it, or will it get worse.

8 out of 10 would have again if symptoms were the same.
		
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Agreed.

Not belittling those who have had it bad, but I know the last time I had full blown flu, about twenty years ago now, I felt dreadful for about two weeks. Excruciatingly painful left side of my chest, and bed ridden for a week.

My two brushes with Covid have been very mild in comparison.


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## Ethan (Mar 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed.

Not belittling those who have had it bad, but I know the last time I had full blown flu, about twenty years ago now, I felt dreadful for about two weeks. Excruciatingly painful left side of my chest, and bed ridden for a week.

My two brushes with Covid have been very mild in comparison.
		
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Most people who think they have had flu really haven't - they have had a cold. As you describe it. flu properly knocks you off your feet.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed.

Not belittling those who have had it bad, but I know the last time I had full blown flu, about twenty years ago now, I felt dreadful for about two weeks. Excruciatingly painful left side of my chest, and bed ridden for a week.

My two brushes with Covid have been very mild in comparison.
		
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Exactly the same here. Had proper flu 10 years ago and that was a lot worse than both my covids, where I worked every day


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## Backache (Mar 20, 2022)

Flu is like many other viral infections it can vary from completely asymptomatic, to very severe. It's a bit of a myth to think it's always bad.


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## Billysboots (Mar 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Most people who think they have had flu really haven't - they have had a cold. As you describe it. flu properly knocks you off your feet.
		
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Agreed. I think I’ve probably had flu twice in my life, at least symptomatic flu, and it was awful. The only time I’ve felt worse was when I had pneumonia.


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## Backache (Mar 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed. I think I’ve probably had flu twice in my life, at least symptomatic flu, and it was awful. The only time I’ve felt worse was when I had pneumonia.
		
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But as above there's loads of people who've had it and haven't even known and many in between.


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## Billysboots (Mar 20, 2022)

Backache said:



			But as above there's loads of people who've had it and haven't even known and many in between.
		
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I didn’t say that wasn’t the case. I’m merely citing my own experience.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 20, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I didn’t say that wasn’t the case. I’m merely citing my own experience.
		
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I don't think ive ever had Flu. I've had some pretty horrible colds that always give me a very congested chest and blocked sinuses. My recent Covid infection was probably the worse cold symptoms I've experienced, along with headaches, fatigue, aches and although I didn't lose my sense of taste and smell I did have a nasty metallic taste in my mouth.  If that was like Flu then I really don't want Flu.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 20, 2022)

Numbers locally continuing to climb quickly. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55279092 Definitely still out there and a few from work and the golf club have had it quite badly while others hardly affected. On the plus side warm weather coming (at least this week) and so hopefully more windows open which will help get rid of it in buildings.


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## 4LEX (Mar 20, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Most people who think they have had flu really haven't - they have had a cold. As you describe it. flu properly knocks you off your feet.
		
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Very true. I had flu in 2017 and despite running marathon's and being fit as a fiddle it knocked me for six for at least two weeks. Hot and cold flushes, bizzare dreams, body aches, headaches, no energy plus all the worst cold symptoms. Brutal.


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2022)

If you're in the Aylesbury area it would be quite handy if your kids don't get sick for a while...
The pediatric unit at Stoke Mandeville Hospital is down to the most skeleton of skeleton staff...mostly off with Covid...staffing levels about 20% of normal..


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			If you're in the Aylesbury area it would be quite handy if your kids don't get sick for a while...
The pediatric unit at Stoke Mandeville Hospital is down to the most skeleton of skeleton staff...mostly off with Covid...staffing levels about 20% of normal..
		
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Not just there. We have an increasing problem with staff testing positive for the 2nd or even 3rd time. Placing a strain on ICU numbers especially around the doctors rota but now impacting the nurses one too. Patient numbers in ICU seem to have levelled back at 6 for the last few days


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## BiMGuy (Mar 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Most people who think they have had flu really haven't - they have had a cold. As you describe it. flu properly knocks you off your feet.
		
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I’ve had proper full blown flu twice. The most recent time I was convinced I was going to die. I went from being completely fine, to not being able to move in the space of half an hour. Then spent 3 days in and out of conciseness in bed. I had 2 full weeks off work and wasn’t fully right for a good few weeks after that.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2022)

Should of taken me dad to the hospital today for his Dementia test results. Mum tested positive for COVID on Saturday.I told them both to stay away from one another. Went round yesterday and they were both sat in the conservatory having there Sunday dinner. Got to me dads this morning and he says “ am ok”. I mentioned you don’t sound it. He said “ no am fine I just have a runny nose”. Really, an LFT 20 minutes later said otherwise. Suffice to say Ave rung hospital and a appointment is booked for next Monday. Hopefull.


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## Imurg (Mar 21, 2022)

A long time ago I heard of the "flu test"..
Stick a £10 note on the floor..
If you've got a cold you'll pick it up 
If you've got flu you won't even think about it.....


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			A long time ago I heard of the "flu test"..
Stick a £10 note on the floor..
If you've got a cold you'll pick it up
If you've got flu you won't even think about it.....
		
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Send us a tenner to see if I have flu. 😉
I might need a second opinion so have a word with Fragger for me 😁


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## WGCRider (Mar 21, 2022)

Was wondering if anyone has any experiance with how long it currently takes to test negative on a PCR (for fit to fly) after first testing positive?
Have tried google but the best answer I can get there is "up to 90 days" no first hand experiance.


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## Robster59 (Mar 21, 2022)

Imurg said:



			A long time ago I heard of the "flu test"..
Stick a £10 note on the floor..
If you've got a cold you'll pick it up
If you've got flu you won't even think about it.....
		
Click to expand...

Put £20 down and I'll take my chances!


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			Was wondering if anyone has any experiance with how long it currently takes to test negative on a PCR (for fit to fly) after first testing positive?
Have tried google but the best answer I can get there is "up to 90 days" no first hand experiance.
		
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Why a PCR WGCR me man. I think everyone is different re recovery times


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## Ethan (Mar 21, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			Was wondering if anyone has any experiance with how long it currently takes to test negative on a PCR (for fit to fly) after first testing positive?
Have tried google but the best answer I can get there is "up to 90 days" no first hand experiance.
		
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Where are you looking to fly to, and when? Are you fully vaccinated?


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Where are you looking to fly to, and when? Are you fully vaccinated?
		
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I was wondering if he is stuck abroad and wanting to come home 🤔


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 21, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			Was wondering if anyone has any experiance with how long it currently takes to test negative on a PCR (for fit to fly) after first testing positive?
Have tried google but the best answer I can get there is "up to 90 days" no first hand experiance.
		
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My last flight, to the Netherlands, was four weeks after my positive Covid test. I didn't need a PCR test for fit to fly as I had proof of recovery from a recent infection.

I did have a PCR test to join a vessel five weeks after my positive test and that came back negative.


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## WGCRider (Mar 21, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Where are you looking to fly to, and when? Are you fully vaccinated?
		
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I was positive with a PCR test on Friday (I fairly sure I picked it up last Wednesday) and I am hoping to fly on the 31st. My destination requires a negative PCR. I have had very mild/no real syptoms and a lateral flow test shows a very faint line after about 10 minutes. Had all 3 jabs.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			I was positive with a PCR test on Friday (I fairly sure I picked it up last Wednesday) and I am hoping to fly on the 31st. My destination requires a negative PCR. I have had very mild/no real syptoms and a lateral flow test shows a very faint line after about 10 minutes. Had all 3 jabs.
		
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I honestly think there is no real answer. My sons pal and wife were over from
Australia over Christmas. They both caught Covid. Her PCR was clear 2 weeks before his and she went back on her own with the baby. The guy went back 2 weeks later as his PCR kept showing positive. Good luck me man


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2022)

We are taking weekly PCR tests in work and those that test positive aren't to take another until 90 days after their last negative LFT


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We are taking weekly PCR tests in work and those that test positive aren't to take another until 90 days after their last negative LFT
		
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What’s the thought process behind that Homer me man 👍


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 21, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			What’s the thought process behind that Homer me man 👍
		
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My understanding is simply that there are traces of the virus remaining and so any test in that window will come back positive even if the person doesn't currently have it (false positive)


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## WGCRider (Mar 22, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We are taking weekly PCR tests in work and those that test positive aren't to take another until 90 days after their last negative LFT
		
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Yeah this is the issue I have. Can't find any info about how long the gap is between the first negative LFT and a negative PCR. Everything just says 90 days.


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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			We are taking weekly PCR tests in work and those that test positive aren't to take another until 90 days after their last negative LFT
		
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WGCRider said:



			Yeah this is the issue I have. Can't find any info about how long the gap is between the first negative LFT and a negative PCR. Everything just says 90 days.
		
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I think that is to simply eliminate false alarm 'noise'.
Though I believe if folk restart having major symptoms of Covid, then another PCR test is advised. That should certinly be the case for hospital workers imo.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2022)

Well on the 2nd anniversary of the first lockdown I test positive, and my Mrs is not feeling great either, and that’s despite our efforts to continue taking precautions.

And of course this is a mighty pain as my Mrs was to be travelling to her mums tomorrow for a couple of weeks - providing support to her brother as he continues his chemo cycles.  Not sure what we’ll do, but she has told them she can‘t travel to them until she feels symptom free and had successive negative tests.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well on the 2nd anniversary of the first lockdown I test positive, and my Mrs is not feeling great either, and that’s despite our efforts to continue taking precautions.

And of course this is a mighty pain as my Mrs was to be travelling to her mums tomorrow for a couple of weeks - providing support to her brother as he continues his chemo cycles.  Not sure what we’ll do, but she has told them she can‘t travel to them until she feels symptom free and had successive negative tests.
		
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Yeah my turn to test postive now

Wife was postive 11th march 

Eldest 16th march 

Me yesterday

Been a rough few weeks


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 23, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Yeah my turn to test postive now

Wife was postive 11th march

Eldest 16th march

Me yesterday

Been a rough few weeks
		
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Tbh I am not sure what we are supposed to do.  Seems like with the virus being allowed to run free and uncontrolled in the community I could self-isolate and be clear in a weeks time and then as soon as I go out I get reinfected straight away.  So what’s the point of my isolating now.  I know I should and will but it seems a bit pointless.


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## Foxholer (Mar 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Tbh I am not sure what we are supposed to do.  Seems like with the virus being allowed to run free and uncontrolled in the community I could be clear in a weeks time and reinfected straight away.  So what’s the point of my isolating now.  I know I should but it seems a bit pointless.
		
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Again, it seems to be to prevent the absolute swamping of facilities with cases. 
I hope both you and your wife, particularly, get through it with no serious effects.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Tbh I am not sure what we are supposed to do.  Seems like with the virus being allowed to run free and uncontrolled in the community I could self-isolate and be clear in a weeks time and then as soon as I go out I get reinfected straight away.  So what’s the point of my isolating now.  I know I should and will but it seems a bit pointless.
		
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It's been quite clear from our work and her school 

Isolate for minimum 5 full days until 2 negative tests .. or 10 full days 

Little one back to school tomorrow was negative finally today 

First day off work was yesterday for me

But we are fortunate


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## williamalex1 (Mar 23, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I don't believe that's correct. The filtering effect will have an efficiacy breathing in and out.  Also, if everyone/most are wearing them then the amount of airborne virus being transmitted will be restricted so masks will cope better with inbound filtration.
		
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Just read this post, if we wear 2 masks back to front would that stop the intake .?


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 23, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Tbh I am not sure what we are supposed to do.  Seems like with the virus being allowed to run free and uncontrolled in the community I could self-isolate and be clear in a weeks time and then as soon as I go out I get reinfected straight away.  So what’s the point of my isolating now.  I know I should and will but it seems a bit pointless.
		
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How is it pointless?. The idea of isolating is not to infect others!
Where is your dilemma ( of what to do or not do?) 
Do you think you should be considering whether to go to meet others?
You say "we". Surely your wife is considering going to her Mum's and seeing her and her brother?
The rules requiring you to not do this and not do that are no longer in force, but the advice is still the same.😳


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How is it pointless?. The idea of isolating is not to infect others!
Where is your dilemma ( of what to do or not do?)
Do you think you should be considering whether to go to meet others?
You say "we". Surely your wife is considering going to her Mum's and seeing her and her brother?
The rules requiring you to not do this and not do that are no longer in force, but the advice is still the same.😳
		
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When the wife tested positive on the 11th we cancelled everything and moved all plans to the following weekend. I sent her to the loft room for majority of the day and got her down to help with bathtime etc . Eldest went school as normal 

We tested whole house (bar wife as she was positive) every day 

16th eldest came back postive so off school for her (nightmare she so bored and 4 year olds bored lol when we can't go out.. delightful) Mrs then took over looking after her as they both had it so why not I just took the twins 

Now I've got it im hiding in the loft whilst everyone is clear


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How is it pointless?. The idea of isolating is not to infect others!
Where is your dilemma ( of what to do or not do?)
Do you think you should be considering whether to go to meet others?
You say "we". Surely your wife is considering going to her Mum's and seeing her and her brother?
The rules requiring you to not do this and not do that are no longer in force, but the advice is still the same.😳
		
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I think the dilemma is that, the powers that be allow you to go out now with COVID 🤬. But why would you. I mentioned last week about how I had met two folk on the same day that have COVID and were out and about. 🤬 Not only that, Both my parents now have COVID . My dad is the rougher of the two. I have told them enough times if they need owt to let me know. So I called my parents Tuesday to see if all is well. mum says” Oh Ave had a nice walk to the chemist to picks yer dads tablets up”. 🤬 Ave spent two years trying to protect them and as soon as she gets it she is put and about. Words fail me.


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## road2ruin (Mar 24, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			I think the dilemma is that, the powers that be allow you to go out now with COVID 🤬. But why would you. I mentioned last week about how I had met two folk on the same day that have COVID and were out and about. 🤬 Not only that, Both my parents now have COVID . My dad is the rougher of the two. I have told them enough times if they need owt to let me know. So I called my parents Tuesday to see if all is well. mum says” Oh Ave had a nice walk to the chemist to picks yer dads tablets up”. 🤬 Ave spent two years trying to protect them and as soon as she gets it she is put and about. Words fail me.
		
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Just playing Devil’s Advocate but did you expect your folks to spend the rest of their days shut indoors? 

I know from those I have spoken to recently that they have put their faith in being vaccinated and they don’t want to spend their final years inside trying to avoid a virus that is likely to be almost impossible to avoid long term.


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## RichA (Mar 24, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Just playing Devil’s Advocate but did you expect your folks to spend the rest of their days shut indoors? 

I know from those I have spoken to recently that they have put their faith in being vaccinated and they don’t want to spend their final years inside trying to avoid a virus that is likely to be almost impossible to avoid long term.
		
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Not wishing to speak for Tash, but there's a huge difference between "the rest of their days" and a few days while highly infectious.
My elderly Dad takes few precautions and doesn't test. I'm fairly sure that he wouldn't change his routine either, if he was capable of leaving the house.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			Not wishing to speak for Tash, but there's a huge difference between "the rest of their days" and a few days while highly infectious.
My elderly Dad takes few precautions and doesn't test. I'm fairly sure that he wouldn't change his routine either, if he was capable of leaving the house.
		
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I think that’s about it. Me dad has “ a bit of leukaemia”, his words. triple by pass. COPD. and others. My parents have been out with us on plenty of occasions during Covid. I just think it’s irresponsible of me mum to go out like that.


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## road2ruin (Mar 24, 2022)

RichA said:



			Not wishing to speak for Tash, but there's a huge difference between "the rest of their days" and a few days while highly infectious.
My elderly Dad takes few precautions and doesn't test. I'm fairly sure that he wouldn't change his routine either, if he was capable of leaving the house.
		
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Tashyboy said:



			I think that’s about it. Me dad has “ a bit of leukaemia”, his words. triple by pass. COPD. and others. My parents have been out with us on plenty of occasions during Covid. I just think it’s irresponsible of me mum to go out like that.
		
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Sorry, I misread Tash's original post! My point was about his folks not spending their days inside worrying about catching it however having re-read, I completely agree that his mum should have her feet up whilst she's got Covid and not be prowling the streets just like, hopefully, most of the others who get it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 24, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			How is it pointless?. The idea of isolating is not to infect others!
Where is your dilemma ( of what to do or not do?)
Do you think you should be considering whether to go to meet others?
You say "we". Surely your wife is considering going to her Mum's and seeing her and her brother?
The rules requiring you to not do this and not do that are no longer in force, but the advice is still the same.😳
		
Click to expand...

No dilemma, just wondering given it seems to me that there are likely to be many walking about with the virus, either knowingly given there is nothing in any rule stopping them, or unknowingly.  As I said, I will isolate despite any frustrations I might feel with the current rather lax approach to controlling viral infection.

And my Mrs is definitely NOT going to her mum‘s to support her brother.  At least not until next week and I’m testing negative as hopefully so will she.  We’ve spent two years doing everything to protect ourselves, and so also my mil and BiL, from this virus and yet now we’ve got it and we’re feeling a bit p’d off.

We also had to have a firm word with my mil (92) yesterday as a couple of days back she went into hospital with my BiL, to keep him company…and when asked why she risked picking up the virus by going into a hospital of all places her reply was…’Why not…there is no virus around here…’.  And why does she think that…because numbers of infections aren’t being reported in the way they were and none of her friends in the village have it…🥺

…Update…Mrs Hogie just tested +VE…inevitable I guess given me +VE and how she feels.  And we’ve cancelled a well-deserved (for my Mrs) weekend break in Wensleydale we had booked for next weekend - such is life and living with covid.


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			...
*16th eldest* came back postive so off school for her (nightmare she so bored and 4 year olds bored lol when we can't go out.. delightful) Mrs then took over looking after her as they both had it so why not I just took the twins

Now I've got it im hiding in the loft whilst everyone is clear
		
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What?
If the bit in bold is correct, I think you should have been banished to the loft, alone, many years ago! 
I guess you meant The 16yo (the eldest).


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			What?
If the bit in bold is correct, I think you should have been banished to the loft, alone, many years ago! 
I guess you meant The 16yo (the eldest). 

Click to expand...

16th (date) eldest (4) tested positive

Happy to clarify


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## Foxholer (Mar 24, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			16th (date) eldest (4) tested positive

Happy to clarify
		
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Ah!  Amazing the difference a judicious comma or 2 could/can make!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 24, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Ah!  Amazing the difference a judicious comma or 2 could/can make!
		
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I like leaving it open to interpretation


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## Tashyboy (Mar 24, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			Sorry, I misread Tash's original post! My point was about his folks not spending their days inside worrying about catching it however having re-read, I completely agree that his mum should have her feet up whilst she's got Covid and not be prowling the streets just like, hopefully, most of the others who get it.
		
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A quick update, rung me dad to see if they want owt from the supermarket on me way home from golf. “Hey-up dad how are you”. him “ am ok it’s yer mum am worried about”. It turns out she has done a LFT and is still a little bit positive but decides she will go/ walk to the allotment 3/4 of a mile away. Me dad is worried because he has not seen her for hours. Monday he finds out the results of his dementia test and the woman who he will see has said to me on the phone “ there is a diagnosis”. Spoke to me mum, the very person who was bogged off last week “ coz someone has given her COVID”. And she don’t know what the fuss is about. 🤬


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2022)

Just been checking and the upper back pain (ache between shoulder blades and at lower neck) I have had for some days seems to be a symptom of covid.  Upside of that is that I was feeling it a day or two before I experienced the other symptoms that caused me to test…and to confirm I have covid.  So maybe my 5 day clock started ticking on Monday or Tuesday.


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			16th (date) eldest (4) tested positive

Happy to clarify
		
Click to expand...

It's ok, we knew what you meant


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2022)

It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.
		
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Here's the current advice. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/


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## bobmac (Mar 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Ah!  Amazing the difference a judicious comma or 2 could/can make!
		
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Foxholer said:



			Her's the current advice. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/

Click to expand...


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.
		
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You have gone on all pandemic about doing the right thing and how you should be protecting your wife and family and now you are suggesting going to play golf (even though technically you can). No guarantee no-one will stop and talk to you in the car park. There is still a risk no matter how you try and square it. It goes against everything you've preached on here


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You have gone on all pandemic about doing the right thing and how you should be protecting your wife and family and now you are suggesting going to play golf (even though technically you can). No guarantee no-one will stop and talk to you in the car park. There is still a risk no matter how you try and square it. It goes against everything you've preached on here
		
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I have said that my inclination is that I shouldn’t, but so many on here tell me that I should get on with my life while at the same taking the appropriate risk mitigations.

So tell me where my risk mitigations fall down and I present a risk, I can pretty much guarantee I can park where it is very unlikely others will be about.  The risk of conversation - even at a distance - is going to be low.  If there are numbers of folk about I would turn round and go home. My wife has covid…and is not going to travel to support family until we are both clear.

Chances are that I won’t go…and ignore those who implore that we should get on with life…learning to live with it.


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## RichA (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.
		
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It's something I might consider doing very discreetly and sensibly, in the circumstances you've described, but I wouldn't broadcast it on the internet.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2022)

What do you do if you get a hole in one....


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## SteveW86 (Mar 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			What do you do if you get a hole in one....

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just leave it in there


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			just leave it in there
		
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Well I would coz I've  had 3.....


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## SteveW86 (Mar 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Well I would coz I've  had 3.....

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everyone knows a hole in 1 is 1% skill and 99% luck


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			everyone knows a hole in 1 is 1% skill and 99% luck
		
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My only reply to that would be why hasn't Fragger had one then..? The luckiest golfer  in the world


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## SteveW86 (Mar 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			My only reply to that would be why hasn't Fragger had one then..? The luckiest golfer  in the world 

Click to expand...

that 1% bit of skill is still required though


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			that 1% bit of skill is still required though
		
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Good point..well made


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I like leaving it open to interpretation
		
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Can be fatal....
https://ipdraughts.wordpress.com/20...a-drafting-can-be-a-matter-of-life-and-death/


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## pauljames87 (Mar 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Can be fatal....
https://ipdraughts.wordpress.com/20...a-drafting-can-be-a-matter-of-life-and-death/

Click to expand...

This just sounds like an episode of Jonathan creek


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## AmandaJR (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have said that my inclination is that I shouldn’t, but so many on here tell me that I should get on with my life while at the same taking the appropriate risk mitigations.

So tell me where my risk mitigations fall down and I present a risk, I can pretty much guarantee I can park where it is very unlikely others will be about.  The risk of conversation - even at a distance - is going to be low.  If there are numbers of folk about I would turn round and go home. My wife has covid…and is not going to travel to support family until we are both clear.

Chances are that I won’t go…and ignore those who implore that we should get on with life…learning to live with it.
		
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Actually I think there are those on here who have taken the decision to get on with their lives and learn to live with it. Can't say they actually IMPLORE you to do the same. In the end it's about your decision as an adult to do what you think is right. The advice is to self isolate...so I'd be doing that.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			My only reply to that would be why hasn't Fragger had one then..? The luckiest golfer  in the world 

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You may need to take up the expression popularised, if probably not originated, by Gary Player....'The more I practice, the luckier I get!' Of course, playing significantly more shots per round than you do should help Fragger's opportunities for luck in some areas - but not for HIOs!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Actually I think there are those on here who have taken the decision to get on with their lives and learn to live with it. Can't say they actually IMPLORE you to do the same. In the end it's about your decision as an adult to do what you think is right. The advice is to self isolate...so I'd be doing that.
		
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Which is what I have been doing and will continue to do until Tuesday at earliest (5 days tomorrow…hopefully test -ve then -ve again Sunday and Monday).  

But as the thought crossed my mind earlier as it is such a lovely day I was just wondering what the ‘need to get on with life and learn to live with it’ brigade would think.  Still interested if any wish to share.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2022)

Imurg said:



			What do you do if you get a hole in one....

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What I did the last (and only) time I got one…and that time the only witness was the big man upstairs.  I shrugged.😊😉


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.
		
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I would not have a problem doing that. In the outdoors, late afternoon, on your own. You are in control of staying away from others. All told very low risk. What would be irresponsible is going in the clubhouse


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what I have been doing and will continue to do until Tuesday at earliest (5 days tomorrow…hopefully test -ve then -ve again Sunday and Monday). 

But as the thought crossed my mind earlier as it is such a lovely day I was just wondering what the ‘need to get on with life and learn to live with it’ brigade would think.  Still interested if any wish to share.
		
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I walked the dogs if that’s any interest to you? 
That is pretty much my living 🤣

Had no interest in hitting balls but would do this time of night for 9 holes as nobody there if feeling normal. 

At the height of my infection. Absolutely wouldn’t be able to. Far too lethargic.


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## Ethan (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			I would not have a problem doing that. In the outdoors, late afternoon, on your own. You are in control of staying away from others. All told very low risk. What would be irresponsible is going in the clubhouse
		
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I agree. Negligible risk outdoors keeping your distance, but avoid going indoors.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.
		
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The decision is yours to make. Please make that decision based on what you feel you ought to do and need to do.
Keep your desire to do what you like to do and want to do under control.

Day 5 for Mrs V and day 4 for me. Neither of us has left the house during those days. Had a few swings in the garden today.
No plans to do anything until after the two consecutive negative tests.
Neighbours have offered to get provisions. Good people.


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## Leftitshort (Mar 25, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You have gone on all pandemic about doing the right thing and how you should be protecting your wife and family and now you are suggesting going to play golf (even though technically you can). No guarantee no-one will stop and talk to you in the car park. There is still a risk no matter how you try and square it. It goes against everything you've preached on here
		
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 why are you obsessed by SILH. Any excuse to put the boot in? @SwingsitlikeHogan fill your boots, asymptomatic, outside, I’d have no issue with that.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have said that my inclination is that I shouldn’t, but so many on here tell me that I should get on with my life while at the same taking the appropriate risk mitigations.

So tell me where my risk mitigations fall down and I present a risk, I can pretty much guarantee I can park where it is very unlikely others will be about.  The risk of conversation - even at a distance - is going to be low.  If there are numbers of folk about I would turn round and go home. My wife has covid…and is not going to travel to support family until we are both clear.

Chances are that I won’t go…and ignore those who implore that we should get on with life…learning to live with it.
		
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My advice is don't go out.  What if your car breaks down, are you happy about infecting the recovery person, what if you had an accident or were taken ill.  Think of others and keep away from them.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			why are you obsessed by SILH. Any excuse to put the boot in? @SwingsitlikeHogan fill your boots, asymptomatic, outside, I’d have no issue with that.
		
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Really!


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## Leftitshort (Mar 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Really!
		
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Yes.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Yes.
		
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No


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## Leftitshort (Mar 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			No
		
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Go a pick a fight with foxy. That normally passes a Friday night fun 👍


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Go a pick a fight with foxy. That normally passes a Friday night fun 👍
		
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🙂


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.
		
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Seems too big a risk - to others - to me. If you need the open air and exercise, do it with your wife somewhere where you can control proximity to and possible contact with others better than on/around a golf club.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Go a pick a fight with foxy. That normally passes a Friday night fun 👍
		
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No it doesn't!


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Seems too big a risk - to others - to me. If you need the open air and exercise, do it with your wife somewhere where you can control proximity to and possible contact with others better than on/around a golf club.
		
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Utter twaddle. What danger do you see from a lone golfer, outside on a near empty course where he can comfortably avoid everyone and only has to say keep your distance on the off chance someone jumps in and wants to hug him. No different from going for a walk.


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## Captainron (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s a lovely sunny day and COVID has me kicking my heels at home.  But I am thinking I might take myself to club for a few holes late afternoon/early evening when very few will be about.  I wouldn’t go into the clubhouse or pro shop, and would avoid conversation with anyone.  Would also not putt to avoid touching the flag and would smooth footprints in bunker with back of club. As unlikely to be many if any playing behind me there should be no issue with that.

Please tell me if I am being totally irresponsible in thinking that might be OK…even though my inclination is that I shouldn’t but just working through the risk I might present if take the measures I outlined above.

I probably picked the virus up on Sunday and feel OK - and not coughing.
		
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Go for it. Outside and alone. No risk to others.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Utter twaddle. What danger do you see from a lone golfer, outside on a near empty course where he can comfortably avoid everyone and only has to say keep your distance on the off chance someone jumps in and wants to hug him. No different from going for a walk.
		
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Am all for getting on with life, but a few days away from the course is hardly end of the world.


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## BiMGuy (Mar 25, 2022)

Leftitshort said:



			Go a pick a fight with foxy. That normally passes a Friday night fun 👍
		
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Why are you trying to pick a fight on someone else’s behalf? 
Both are more than capable of doing it themselves 😁


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## BiMGuy (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Utter twaddle. What danger do you see from a lone golfer, outside on a near empty course where he can comfortably avoid everyone and only has to say keep your distance on the off chance someone jumps in and wants to hug him. No different from going for a walk.
		
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He can avoid everyone else, right up to the point where something happens where he can’t.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Am all for getting on with life, but a few days away from the course is hardly end of the world.
		
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So you would also not go for a walk? Probably, in fact almost certainly, going to be closer to people walking the streets or leisure areas than on a near empty course in late afternoon. Nor having prescribed rules meaning using common sense not being a hermit for the sake of it. I went out walking every day with covid a couple of weeks back and walked past plenty of people a yard or so away but I saw no danger in that and I think any experts would agree. Danger is indoors not outside


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Utter twaddle. What danger do you see from a lone golfer, outside on a near empty course where he can comfortably avoid everyone and only has to say keep your distance on the off chance someone jumps in and wants to hug him. No different from going for a walk.
		
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Not twaddle at all. I'd suggest that the number of times (3?) you've had it - and quite possibly passed it on - is directly related to your laissez faire approach to the risk.
It *shouldn't* be a problem. But the possibility exists for accidental interaction, so the totally avoidable risk is too great *imo*. If it's exercise that's wanted, simply go for a walk - where interaction can be controlled.
It would likely be ok for you though. Even in a 4-ball as you are miles away from others except on Tees and Greens!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not twaddle at all. I'd suggest that the number of times (3?) you've had it - and quite possibly passed it on - is directly related to your laissez faire approach to the risk.
It *shouldn't* be a problem. But the possibility exists for accidental interaction, so the totally avoidable risk is too great *imo*. If it's exercise that's wanted, simply go for a walk - where interation can be controlled.
It would likely be ok for you though. Even in a 4-ball as you are miles away from others except on Tees and Greens! 

Click to expand...

How can interaction be controlled when out for a walk, but not on golf course?

When out for a walk, a person is likely to get close to many people, especially on a nice sunny day when many more are having a walk. Even in a park, you'll inevitably get within close range to other walkers from time to time.

In a golf course, you should at least be half a hole from any other group of people. So, you are effectively going out for a walk in a massive park, with relatively very few people on it and all spaced out. You just happen to be hitting a golf ball about while you do it.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			How can interaction be controlled when out for a walk, but not on golf course?

When out for a walk, a person is likely to get close to many people, especially on a nice sunny day when many more are having a walk. Even in a park, you'll inevitably get within close range to other walkers from time to time.

In a golf course, you should at least be half a hole from any other group of people. So, you are effectively going out for a walk in a massive park, with relatively very few people on it and all spaced out. You just happen to be hitting a golf ball about while you do it.
		
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I didn't suggest that it wasn't (almost) controllable at/on a golf course, simply that it's (almost) totally controllable when walking. 
There are other areas at a golf course (car park etc) where contact, therefore possible transmission, is possible; almost none (that can't be avoided) when simply out walking. I've walked a lot in local park(s) recently (good for my 'new' hip) and not been in close range to others at all.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Not twaddle at all. I'd suggest that the number of times (3?) you've had it - and quite possibly passed it on - is directly related to your laissez faire approach to the risk.
It *shouldn't* be a problem. But the possibility exists for accidental interaction, so the totally avoidable risk is too great *imo*. If it's exercise that's wanted, simply go for a walk - where interaction can be controlled.
It would likely be ok for you though. Even in a 4-ball as you are miles away from others except on Tees and Greens! 

Click to expand...

What utter shiiiite. You know nothing about what I have done when I have had it and you tbink I could have passed it on due to a Lax attitude - what a sanctimonious attitude. Back in your box. I am perfectly able to control interactions going for a walk in the open air where risk is miniscule. There will likely be tens of thousands who are doing far more and don't even k ow they have it. And, to repeat, less chance of those interactions on the golf course than in the park or on the streets


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			What utter shiiiite. You know nothing about what I have done when I have had it and you tbink I could have passed it on due to a Lax attitude - what a sanctimonious attitude. Back in your box. I am perfectly able to control interactions going for a walk in the open air where risk is miniscule. There will likely be tens of thousands who are doing far more and don't even k ow they have it. And, to repeat, less chance of those interactions on the golf course than in the park or on the streets
		
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To me, your entire argument is tainted by the fact that you've caught it multiple times while 'preaching' a 'let's get on with life' to dealing with it. I'd sooner avoid avoidable risk where it's easy/practical to do. If you consider that sanctimonious, fine... I don't!
I agree re the 'tens of thousands' btw, but that's irrelevant to the discussion, as they are, imo, completely avoidable in a park and likely (but less so) avoidable *at* a golf course or on the streets.

Oh and FWIW, it appears that the dominant variant is now Omicron BA-2 - even more transmissable than BA-1, though with similar (lower than previous variants) likelihood of need for hospitalisation.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			To me, your entire argument is tainted by the fact that you've caught it multiple times while 'preaching' a 'let's get on with life' to dealing with it. I'd sooner avoid avoidable risk where it's easy/practical to do. If you consider that sanctimonious, fine... I don't!
I agree re the 'tens of thousands' btw, but that's irrelevant to the discussion, as they are, imo, completely avoidable in a park and likely (but less so) avoidable *at* a golf course or on the streets.
		
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Firstly, I have had it twice. Once in the last 16 months - and i have partied in busy pubs etc all the time i have been allowed to. And that is utterly irrelevant to the question asked. This is not about me yet you turned it that way. My attitude about living with it also has nothing to do with it. I used my judgement about what i did with covid this time - and that meant avoiding people inside. And that is how i chose to live with ity - and when i don't have it, i live the same as i did before covid.

My argument is based on logic. Being outside and not near other people = next to no risk. And can't be bothered replying to you anymore repeating the point again


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			What utter shiiiite. You know nothing about what I have done when I have had it and you tbink I could have passed it on due to a Lax attitude - what a sanctimonious attitude. Back in your box. I am perfectly able to control interactions going for a walk in the open air where risk is miniscule. There will likely be tens of thousands who are doing far more and don't even k ow they have it. And, to repeat, less chance of those interactions on the golf course than in the park or on the streets
		
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If you have to drive to get somewhere while you have Covid you are putting others at a potential risk.  At a Golf course there is also potential risk of coming into close contact with others, not necessarily by being in the open air but others don't know you have it, what do you do if someone approaches you, shout out "Keep away I have Covid". Just like driving something can go wrong, you could injure yourself,  be hit with a golf ball etc.  IMHO visiting a golf course or anywhere else where you need to drive or could be in any reasonable danger of injury then you shouldn't be doing it.  OK, a walk from your house in an open environment where you can avoid others presents a lesser risk.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If you have to drive to get somewhere while you have Covid you are putting others at a potential risk.  At a Golf course there is also potential risk of coming into close contact with others, not necessarily by being in the open air but others don't know you have it, what do you do if someone approaches you, shout out "Keep away I have Covid". Just like driving something can go wrong, you could injure yourself,  be hit with a golf ball etc.  IMHO visiting a golf course or anywhere else where you need to drive or could be in any reasonable danger of injury then you shouldn't be doing it.  OK, a walk from your house in an open environment where you can avoid others presents a lesser risk.
		
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i guess you will be hibernating until 2030! There is risk in everything in life. Some risks are very small and therefore, perfectly acceptable. Like driving on your own in your own car round the corner to the golf club, parking on your own in a largely empty car park, walking on your own to the tee and having a game on your own. As mentioned a few times, there is more risk going for a walk round the stretts or parks - and that risk is also almost negligible unless you are a  head.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



_Firstly, I have had it twice_. Once in the last 16 months - and i have partied in busy pubs etc all the time i have been allowed to. And that is utterly irrelevant to the question asked. This is not about me yet you turned it that way. My attitude about living with it also has nothing to do with it. I used my judgement about what i did with covid this time - and that meant avoiding people inside. And that is how i chose to live with ity - and when i don't have it, i live the same as i did before covid.

My argument is based on logic. Being outside and not near other people = next to no risk. And can't be bothered replying to you anymore repeating the point again
		
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So you agree/admit to having had it multiple times. I haven't had it at all, having even avoided catching it from a workmate who came to work the day before Xmas and was the likely spreader to the rest of the workplace!

My argument is also based on logic...just different to yours!


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			So you would also not go for a walk? Probably, in fact almost certainly, going to be closer to people walking the streets or leisure areas than on a near empty course in late afternoon. Nor having prescribed rules meaning using common sense not being a hermit for the sake of it. I went out walking every day with covid a couple of weeks back and walked past plenty of people a yard or so away but I saw no danger in that and I think any experts would agree. Danger is indoors not outside
		
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You are ignoring the point that something could happen outside your control whereby you have to be in close contact with someone else. As SR suggests.
We are talking about someone who isn't possibly/probably Covid positive but who is definitely positive.
If he isolates then no one can be made positive by him.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i guess you will be hibernating until 2030! There is risk in everything in life. Some risks are very small and therefore, perfectly acceptable. Like driving on your own in your own car round the corner to the golf club, parking on your own in a largely empty car park, walking on your own to the tee and having a game on your own. As mentioned a few times, there is more risk going for a walk round the stretts or parks - and that risk is also almost negligible unless you are a  head.
		
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Good Lord, we aren't talking about the risk to yourself, it's the risk to others!
Maybe small risk occurrence wise, but it is unnecessary and it is to others!
A fact you either don't see, or choose to ignore because .....?
Nah- you see it all right, I reckon you just don't care.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 25, 2022)

Interesting.  So other than the lovely weather what made think what I thunked…well in my town and locality it seems that covid is rife and going through the pop. like wildfire.  As a result there are likely to be dozens if not hundreds of individuals walking about town knowing or unknowingly positive but unmasked and not keeping any distance…and so any other individual in town is at quite high risk becoming infected…certainly much more likely than from me on an empty golf course.  So why the heck am I depriving myself (accepting it‘s not much of a deprivation and not one I’m bothered about suffering…but I still ask myself). I might not agree with the current strategy, but it is the only one we have.

And in a weeks time free tests are vanishing…in fact I haven’t been able to order any this week.  So how the heck am I supposed to test myself if I feel a bit rough and then test myself until I am clear.  I fear this ‘freedom’ we have to use our common sense, and test when in doubt, is taking us down a problematic path.

I do hope that none of the above is deemed political…because it’s just real and how it is.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			...I went out walking every day with covid a couple of weeks back and walked past plenty of people a yard or so away but I saw no danger in that and I think any experts would agree. *Danger is indoors not outside*

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You are contradicting your previous assertions re Parks and Streets!
FWIW. _Greatest_ danger is indoors. Being outside _greatly reduces_ the risk of infection, but doesn't eliminate it.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Good Lord, we aren't talking about the risk to yourself, it's the risk to others!
Maybe small risk occurrence wise, but it is unnecessary and it is to others!
A fact you either don't see, or choose to ignore because .....?
Nah- you see it all right, I reckon you just don't care.
		
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What a pile of stinking manure - how dare you say i don't care. I exercise perfectly sensible judgements when i had it and what Hogie suggested was, in my opinion absolutely fine. I am not repeating myself again. We are post pandemic and need to learn to live with this disease ina pragmatic way. Being ultra cautious now is fine if you want to do that but the vast majority do not. And,  being outside in low density people environments is absolutely fine. Going inside and mixing is not. My last word on this


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i guess you will be hibernating until 2030! There is risk in everything in life. Some risks are very small and therefore, perfectly acceptable. Like driving on your own in your own car round the corner to the golf club, parking on your own in a largely empty car park, walking on your own to the tee and having a game on your own. As mentioned a few times, there is more risk going for a walk round the stretts or parks - and that risk is also almost negligible unless you are a  head.
		
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Why do you think I will be hibernating untill 2030!  I guess that's an exaggeration to help support a poor argument.  I don't hibernate and if I did then I guess I'd still be out and about most of the year as that's the way hibernation works. Also I'd be approaching 92 so probably struggling to sleep for four months without getting up often for a wee.   Anyhow!  Back to sensible discussion without any further personal insults.

How do you know he lives around the corner from his golf club, he could live some distance. How would you be certain the car park and club was largely empty.  As I've explained, driving is creating a potential risk to others.  Being on a golf course playing golf is a potential risk to others.  You are correct that going for a walk from your house while infectious does present a certain risk but much less than driving or playing golf.  

Regarding the 💩 head, 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting.  So other than the lovely weather what made think what I thunked…well in my town and locality it seems that covid is rife and going through the pop. like wildfire.  As a result there are likely to be dozens if not hundreds of individuals walking about town knowing or unknowingly positive but unmasked and not keeping any distance…and so any other individual in town is at quite high risk becoming infected…certainly much more likely than from me on an empty golf course.  So why the heck am I depriving myself (accepting it‘s not much of a deprivation and not one I’m bothered about suffering…but I still ask myself). I might not agree with the current strategy, but it is the only one we have.

And in a weeks time free tests are vanishing…in fact I haven’t been able to order any this week.  So how the heck am I supposed to test myself if I feel a bit rough and then test myself until I am clear.  I fear this ‘freedom’ we have to use our common sense, and test when in doubt, is taking us down a problematic path.

I do hope that none of the above is deemed political…because it’s just real and how it is.
		
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Two wrongs still don't make a right.


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## Foxholer (Mar 25, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			...We are post pandemic...
		
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Utter twaddle!
It still conforms to every definition of a pandemic I've seen...'an epidemic of an infectious disease that has spread across a large region, for instance multiple continents or worldwide, affecting a substantial number of individuals' 
It's just not (currently) as deadly as it has been!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			If you have to drive to get somewhere while you have Covid you are putting others at a potential risk.  At a Golf course there is also potential risk of coming into close contact with others, not necessarily by being in the open air but others don't know you have it, what do you do if someone approaches you, shout out "Keep away I have Covid". Just like driving something can go wrong, you could injure yourself,  be hit with a golf ball etc.  IMHO visiting a golf course or anywhere else where you need to drive or could be in any reasonable danger of injury then you shouldn't be doing it.  OK, a walk from your house in an open environment where you can avoid others presents a lesser risk.
		
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Honestly, to suggest going for a walk puts others at less risk than going to a golf course alone is crazy. It also completely depends on individual circumstances.

If you live in the wilderness, then going for a walk will likely have less potential interactions. But, if you live in a busyish neighbourhood, there could many potential interactions as soon as you step past your front gate. Getting in the car and going to a golf course solo would immediately remove those interactions. And, as already discussed, once actually walking on a golf course, you are much less likely to be near anyone compared to a busy park or busy street.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 25, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Honestly, to suggest going for a walk puts others at less risk than going to a golf course alone is crazy. It also completely depends on individual circumstances.

If you live in the wilderness, then going for a walk will likely have less potential interactions. But, if you live in a busyish neighbourhood, there could many potential interactions as soon as you step past your front gate. Getting in the car and going to a golf course solo would immediately remove those interactions. And, as already discussed, once actually walking on a golf course, you are much less likely to be near anyone compared to a busy park or busy street.
		
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You seem to have deliberately missed out the pertinent points I made about the potential dangers with driving and using a golf club. If you are infectious then you are advised to isolate and walking down busy streets and in busy parks is also risky. Did I suggest otherwise?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 25, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to have deliberately missed out the pertinent points I made about the potential dangers with driving and using a golf club. If you are infectious then you are advised to isolate and walking down busy streets and in busy parks is also risky. Did I suggest otherwise?
		
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please list all these big dangers of driving alone in your car?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			please list all these big dangers of driving alone in your car?
		
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I already have but I didn't 'big' it. Potential was the word.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I already have but I didn't 'big' it. Potential was the word.
		
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ah. Potential. There are a lot of those in life!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			ah. Potential. There are a lot of those in life!
		
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There are a lot of 'Bigs' as well but who's boasting.

Keep up.  I explained in #26,105


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## Swango1980 (Mar 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You seem to have deliberately missed out the pertinent points I made about the potential dangers with driving and using a golf club. If you are infectious then you are advised to isolate and walking down busy streets and in busy parks is also risky. Did I suggest otherwise?
		
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This debate stemmed from the suggestion that going for a walk was better than playing golf solo (which is essentially going for a walk as well) in terms of managing Covid risks. 

I don't get the argument,not at all. After the very first lockdown the safest I felt when leaving the house was on a golf course, playing with another person (or people when 4 balls were allowed again). Going for walks meant I had to walk long streets, squeeze past other oncoming pedestrians and get to busy parks. Don't get me wrong, I didn't feel in great danger at all, but on the golf course you basically eliminated 99% of potential, and inevitable interactions compared for going for a walk.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			This debate stemmed from the suggestion that going for a walk was better than playing golf solo (which is essentially going for a walk as well) in terms of managing Covid risks.

I don't get the argument,not at all. After the very first lockdown the safest I felt when leaving the house was on a golf course, playing with another person (or people when 4 balls were allowed again). Going for walks meant I had to walk long streets, squeeze past other oncoming pedestrians and get to busy parks. Don't get me wrong, I didn't feel in great danger at all, but on the golf course you basically eliminated 99% of potential, and inevitable interactions compared for going for a walk.
		
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Again: It's not a good idea to drive if you have Covid ( Already explained why)

There's no problem with playing golf on a course on your own if you have Covid, if you are well enough.  The problem is if you are faced with situations where you will come into contact with others (I've already explained why)

There is a big difference with a well person driving or playing golf to a Covid infected person doing these things.  If you disagree and wish to continue discussing it with me then explain exactly how the objections I have posted are wrong.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 26, 2022)

I'm infectious and I'm staying at home until I'm not infectious. No problem or dilemma for me.
Two years ago we all were staying at home when not infectious. I saw the sense in that at the time.
I caught chicken pox in my 40s. Stayed at home for 9 days that time.
Doing the sensible thing and acting responsibly seems quite an easy decision to me.


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 26, 2022)

Well having moderately ropey for a couple of days I finally tested positive yesterday.

This is the second time I've had it (first was in Sept 2020) but it does feel different this time. Eyes streaming and can't stop sneezing, I genuinely thought I had hay-fever! Also very lethargic and achy which was my experience last time as well.

I was provided a good few LFTs through work so can keep taking them until I get my two negatives.

Didn't really want to comment on the debate above but people are very selective in their facts and figures in what is largely very subjective.

For me personally, if I felt the need to leave the house for exercise the safest thing I could do would be going the golf club. Not the busiest of clubs, I know full well my mates wouldn't be there and wanting to chat and going on what is essentially a one way walk is the easiest way to avoid close contact with others. Plus I'd be in a car there and back.

If I was to go for a walk from my house I reckon I'd be in close contact with somebody within about 3 minutes.

You can talk about potential interactions (crash car etc) but that could literally happen anywhere so if you do need to leave the house then  choose the path of least risk. Hell, with the dizzy spells I've been getting i could fall down the stairs and end up in the back of an ambulance endangering others without even leaving the house!


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## Swango1980 (Mar 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Again: It's not a good idea to drive if you have Covid ( Already explained why)

There's no problem with playing golf on a course on your own if you have Covid, if you are well enough.  The problem is if you are faced with situations where you will come into contact with others (I've already explained why)

There is a big difference with a well person driving or playing golf to a Covid infected person doing these things.  If you disagree and wish to continue discussing it with me then explain exactly how the objections I have posted are wrong.
		
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I don't disagree with your middle paragraph. I was simply responding to your last point in 26125, but it was also a response to Foxholer's comment in 26121, that suggested going for a walk was more controllable than playing golf. 

Firstly, was it suggested that the chap had to drive to the golf club? I can't remember and not scrolling back that far.

Secondly, what are the chances he will break down? Touch wood, I've personally never broken down or been in an accident in over 20 years of driving, so I reckon it presents a ridiculously small risk. Even if it happened, I'd imagine the AA or RAC guy who comes to rescue would be mainly focusing on the engine, outdoors. If they need to get in driving seat, open windows, bring hand sanitizer, or mitigate in whatever other way you can think off.

Forgetting golf, if an infected person was going for a walk and had a choice of walking directly from their house, on a busy street, along other busy streets; or they could get in their car and drive a mile to.a virtually empty field for their walk, then I suspect the second option would present lesser risk overall.

No one said any option presents zero risk, well I didn't. But I'm assuming when the question was asked about playing golf, the intention wasn't to have a big chat with anyone in the car park or go into the club house to meet people. Just like if they went for a walk instead, they'd have no intention of chatting to their neighbours or anyone else they come across.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2022)

The nature of the beast at the moment as it runs riot through localities is that many will be becoming infected - we know that to be the case from numbers being admitted into hospital.  Many will be asymptomatic and so not know; many will have symptoms but no tests available to them so continuing as normal if they feel able; and many will be off work - causing their work problems.  

I know that one of our local Waitrose has staffing issues as so many off sick; and a local restaurant chain asked a neighbour to go to work before she was ‘formally’ cleared by self-testing as the restaurant was thinking it would have to shut due to staff off sick.  And freely available LF tests stop on 1st April - though i haven’t been able to order any this week online.  How is this going to work…I am not sure I have a clear picture.  Hope for hot weather I guess.


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## Billysboots (Mar 26, 2022)

Captainron said:



			Go for it. Outside and alone. No risk to others.
		
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Totally agree. 

As for the “but what happens if you get run over by a bus” brigade, ignore them. If you subscribe to that point of view you’ll never leave the house again, Covid or no Covid.


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 26, 2022)

Just like Homer posted, it is pretty ironic that the one person who has been bleating, moaning and complaining about other people's behaviour over the past two years, is prepared to do whatever he thinks is right for himself.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			So you would also not go for a walk? Probably, in fact almost certainly, going to be closer to people walking the streets or leisure areas than on a near empty course in late afternoon. Nor having prescribed rules meaning using common sense not being a hermit for the sake of it. *I went out walking every day with covid a couple of weeks back and walked past plenty of people a yard or so away but I saw no danger in that and I think any experts would agree. *Danger is indoors not outside
		
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No I wouldn’t Go for a walk. And there in lies the problem of why COVID is rising again, but as you say you saw no danger. You say danger is indoors and not outside, yet folk with Covid Do not stay indoors.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i *guess you will be hibernating until 2030*! There is risk in everything in life. Some risks are very small and therefore, perfectly acceptable. Like driving on your own in your own car round the corner to the golf club, parking on your own in a largely empty car park, walking on your own to the tee and having a game on your own. As mentioned a few times, there is more risk going for a walk round the stretts or parks - and that risk is also almost negligible unless you are a  head.
		
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# overreaction 👍


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The nature of the beast at the moment as it runs riot through localities is that many will be becoming infected - we know that to be the case from numbers being admitted into hospital.  Many will be asymptomatic and so not know; many will have symptoms but no tests available to them so continuing as normal if they feel able; and many will be off work - causing their work problems.  

I know that one of our local Waitrose has staffing issues as so many off sick; and a local restaurant chain asked a neighbour to go to work before she was ‘formally’ cleared by self-testing as the restaurant was thinking it would have to shut due to staff off sick.  And freely available LF tests stop on 1st April - though i haven’t been able to order any this week online.  How is this going to work…I am not sure I have a clear picture.  Hope for hot weather I guess.
		
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I just ordered some LFTs off the gov.uk website this morning 👍


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## hovis (Mar 26, 2022)

I wonder if some of the people still advocating complete isolation have ever gone to the shops with a cold or flue?  Ever drove home from the pub after 1 or two pints.    Drove home when shattered after a long day at work or back from the airport after a long flight.
We all knowingly or unknowingly do things that put other people at risk.  The question is how much of a risk is covid?  We can't continue to lock ourselves away when we have covid but pop to the shops when you have cold or flue!!
Let's face it, covid is just that for the overwhelming majority of people now vacines have been roled out.
I played golf with my pp last week who had covid.  I just stayed away from him.

I would rather play golf with someone who has covid than shop at tesco with 10 people who don't know they have covid


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2022)

hovis said:



			I wonder if some of the people still advocating complete isolation have ever gone to the shops with a cold or flue?  Ever drove home from the pub after 1 or two pints.    Drove home when shattered after a long day at work or back from the airport after a long flight.
We all knowingly or unknowingly do things that put other people at risk.  The question is how much of a risk is covid?  We can't continue to lock ourselves away when we have covid but pop to the shops when you have cold or flue!!
Let's face it, covid is just that for the overwhelming majority of people now vacines have been roled out.
I played golf with my pp last week who had covid.  I just stayed away from him.
		
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Me I am not advocating complete isolation, the gov has said you can go out after so many days of testing negative. Now its you can go out With COVID. I get that. If you are desperate for medicines like me dad was, I could fetch it. But mum decided a trip to the chemist when she has COVID was the better option. Her walk outside ended up inside. Now factor in me dads Luekemia, heart probs, COPD. And it’s not one shoe fits all scenario. 
I think SILH situation has been talked to death. We all have our thoughts and time to move on.
Now waiting for SILHs post on “I played today “ 😂


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## Tashyboy (Mar 26, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			I just ordered some LFTs off the gov.uk website this morning 👍
		
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Just tried but it won’t let me ☹️


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			... and a local restaurant chain asked a neighbour to go to work before she was ‘formally’ cleared by self-testing as the restaurant was thinking it would have to shut due to staff off sick...
		
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Now that IS irresponsible imo!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Just like Homer posted, it is pretty ironic that the one person who has been bleating, moaning and complaining about other people's behaviour over the past two years, is prepared to do whatever he thinks is right for himself.
		
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I hope that you are not referring to me because if you are then you are mistaken…and if you think that only one person has been asking for a different approach than that now being followed…then you are also very mistaken.  But hey…any opportunity to have a dig eh!?

*My* concerns throughout this ‘opening up‘ have always and only been about how the most vulnerable can be supported with the virus running uncontrolled through communities.  And any who think that that is bleating and moaning should give their head a good wobble.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Me I am not advocating complete isolation, the gov has said you can go out after so many days of testing negative. Now its you can go out With COVID. I get that. If you are desperate for medicines like me dad was, I could fetch it. But mum decided a trip to the chemist when she has COVID was the better option. Her walk outside ended up inside. Now factor in me dads Luekemia, heart probs, COPD. And it’s not one shoe fits all scenario.
I think SILH situation has been talked to death. We all have our thoughts and time to move on.
Now waiting for SILHs post on “I played today “ 😂
		
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Didn’t happen yesterday and won’t happen today as I’m still testing positive.


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## Ethan (Mar 26, 2022)

Wow, this one is running and running. 

I am an advocate of cautious public health measures and support masks indoors and all the rest. But from the start, there has been a failure on the part of those setting policy to adequately differentiate between risks indoors and risks outdoors. We had the ridiculous sight of the cops harassing people walking on desolate windswept moors in Derbyshire. 

We now know that the risks of transmission outdoors are very much lower than indoors. Unless someone coughs in your face, that risk is effectively negligible. That risk is no greater if you are carrying a bag of Mizunos and trying to get your Pro V1 round the course. As for the risk of inadvertently coming into contact with others if you break down on the way there or back, I can't remember the last time my car broke down. I don't think modern cars break down, so maybe just don't drive in your 1970s Morris Marina. 

I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to play golf while exercising caution over contact with others.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2022)

HeftyHacker said:



			I just ordered some LFTs off the gov.uk website this morning 👍
		
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I’ll have another go.  None in my area yesterday.
…just tried…none available in my area…will try again later.  But not surprising since infection seems high in my area at the moment.


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## Griffsters (Mar 26, 2022)

I'm currently isolating after testing positive last Monday. I've been out an walked the dog as the risk is virtually zero however I am waiting for negative tests before going anywhere with potential to be crowded or bump into people wanting to interact .
We are running out of LFTs and have been unable to order new ones all week. As guidance states to wait for two negatives before starting interactions again - how is the public supposed to do this unless we have acsess to LFTs?

If this was a bad cold or flu I am reaching the point where I feel able to start doing things again - I would be going out as normal.

As its COVID i'm conditioned to wait for negative tests - I don't disagree with this but I do think as a society we need to decide what is expected. If that is waiting for a negative then LFTs need to be readily available and free, if LFTs are not to be available then that is effectively saying do what you like.


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## drdel (Mar 26, 2022)

I'd have thought by now every adult would know what ìs prudent and their conscience would be their guide: yet still the thread gets bogged down with point scoring.

Everybody has different circumstances under which they live so the 'right' decision might vary a bit.


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## DanFST (Mar 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’ll have another go.  None in my area yesterday.
…just tried…none available in my area…will try again later.  But not surprising since infection seems high in my area at the moment.
		
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I don't want to put the boot in so don't take it that way.

Why do you need LFT's? I don't think you work? Can you not just minimise/remove your indoor contact for 10 days from when you felt sick?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2022)

DanFST said:



			I don't want to put the boot in so don't take it that way.

Why do you need LFT's? I don't think you work? Can you not just minimise/remove your indoor contact for 10 days from when you felt sick?
		
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I don't - work that is.  But my wife and I both have to be negative before we cant travel to my MiLs to provide my BiL and my MiL with support as he especially is highly vulnerable - we have obviously already had to postpone going and we need to head off asap as he has next cycle of chemo starting late next week.  So we rather do need to know.  We have a few test left but we are nearly out

Besides, and in general, do we _really _expect individuals to self-isolate for ten days every time they feel a bit ill if they cant get hold of LFTs?  That is going to completely knacker the self-employed especially - and I suspect many are just going say 'stuff it - cant afford to keep taking time off work like this'.  Already heard that from a friend of the family.


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## Reemul (Mar 26, 2022)

As I've mentioned I have been rough with it, I still have an irritating cough but otherwise feel fine. Had it since last Friday, tested negative today so hopefully be fine to resume outside tomorrow.

I am still not going outside except my garden until tomorrow. It's not like forever, it is no more than 10 days at the most and any time any idiot mentions staying locked up forever really is being disingenuous.

I have no issue with everything returning to normal however I feel if you actually have it, until you are all clear or over 10 days regardless of symptoms you should stay in doors because it's safer for others who are no longer practicing any form of protection so actually are likely at slightly more risk and you know you have it.

I think personally it's quite simple, if you don't have it carry on as normal, if you don't want to mask etc etc then don't, however if you have covid stay in doors until you test negative twice or after the 10 days, surely that is not that difficult.

Regarding not having tests, well if you can't test which I know people are not, my dad has symptoms but will not test and he is 79 could have it but what do you do, not a lot but if you have tested and are positive then the above is surely simple enough to follow.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 26, 2022)

Day 5, still strong line 

Today's is My birthday so rather than risk spreading too much I agreed people could come to garden to see the kids 

My parents and sister came at 10:30 , I wore a mask (outside yes)

At 13:00 mother in law came 

Everyone gone now 

To spend the rest inside with the kids


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't - work that is.  But my wife and I both have to be negative before we cant travel to my MiLs to provide my BiL and my MiL with support as he especially is highly vulnerable - we have obviously already had to postpone going and we need to head off asap as he has next cycle of chemo starting late next week.  So we rather do need to know.  We have a few test left but we are nearly out

Besides, and in general, do we _really _expect individuals to self-isolate for ten days every time they feel a bit ill if they cant get hold of LFTs?  That is going to completely knacker the self-employed especially - and I suspect many are just going say 'stuff it - cant afford to keep taking time off work like this'.  Already heard that from a friend of the family.
		
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You can still purchase a kit from a pharmacy. I do understand for some that's a cost they would struggle with but I'm sure you will be able to afford it.  If you can't go to the pharmacist surely you know someone who could get them for you.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 26, 2022)

drdel said:



			I'd have thought by now every adult would know what ìs prudent and their conscience would be their guide: yet still the thread gets bogged down with point scoring.

Everybody has different circumstances under which they live so the 'right' decision might vary a bit.
		
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Maybe it's not point scoring but differences of opinion and tolerance to risk levels.   Forums like this exist to promote debate/discussion so why be surprised when it happens.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 26, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You can still purchase a kit from a pharmacy. I do understand for some that's a cost they would struggle with but I'm sure you will be able to afford it.  If you can't go to the pharmacist surely you know someone who could get them for you.
		
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Tbh I forgot that 👍 We had a friend do a small shop for us today and she will buy some for us if we need them.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 26, 2022)

And so it starts again. Numbers in ICU up again and we have escalated and taken over another adjacent ward as a precaution. Three bays now containing patients and we have gone from 4-9 in one day. Of those we have 4 non-vaxed and the rest being fully dosed so it is still out there and still has the potential to affect people in a massive way. 

Looking at infection rates easy to see how it is still out there https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55279092


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## SammmeBee (Mar 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't - work that is.  But my wife and I both have to be negative before we cant travel to my MiLs to provide my BiL and my MiL with support as he especially is highly vulnerable - we have obviously already had to postpone going and we need to head off asap as he has next cycle of chemo starting late next week.  So we rather do need to know.  We have a few test left but we are nearly out

Besides, and in general, do we _really _expect individuals to self-isolate for ten days every time they feel a bit ill if they cant get hold of LFTs?  That is going to completely knacker the self-employed especially - and I suspect many are just going say 'stuff it - cant afford to keep taking time off work like this'.  Already heard that from a friend of the family.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't - work that is.  But my wife and I both have to be negative before we cant travel to my MiLs to provide my BiL and my MiL with support as he especially is highly vulnerable - we have obviously already had to postpone going and we need to head off asap as he has next cycle of chemo starting late next week.  So we rather do need to know.  We have a few test left but we are nearly out

Besides, and in general, do we _really _expect individuals to self-isolate for ten days every time they feel a bit ill if they cant get hold of LFTs?  That is going to completely knacker the self-employed especially - and I suspect many are just going say 'stuff it - cant afford to keep taking time off work like this'.  Already heard that from a friend of the family.
		
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Pay for the LFTs if you’re that worried……


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## Foxholer (Mar 26, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And so it starts again. Numbers in ICU up again and we have escalated and taken over another adjacent ward as a precaution. Three bays now containing patients and we have gone from 4-9 in one day. Of those we have 4 non-vaxed and the rest being fully dosed so it is still out there and still has the potential to affect people in a massive way.

Looking at infection rates easy to see how it is still out there https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55279092

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That's about +10%. Certainly increasing, but not critically so - yet. Sensible precautions/escalation imo, hopefully sufficient, at least in the short term.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			What a pile of stinking manure - how dare you say i don't care. I exercise perfectly sensible judgements when i had it and what Hogie suggested was, in my opinion absolutely fine. I am not repeating myself again. We are post pandemic and need to learn to live with this disease ina pragmatic way. Being ultra cautious now is fine if you want to do that but the vast majority do not. And,  being outside in low density people environments is absolutely fine. Going inside and mixing is not. My last word on this
		
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I dare it because it is what you indicate by what you say.
You haven't addressed the point about what happens when things outside your control happen ( as they unfortunately sometimes do) and your intended non contact becomes one of intimate contact -just because you were not eliminating risk when you were able to ( by isolating).
To me and others here it is a no brainer If you know you are positive , then behave to eliminate risk to others. To not do so is to not care re others.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 26, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting.  So other than the lovely weather what made think what I thunked…well in my town and locality it seems that covid is rife and going through the pop. like wildfire.  As a result there are likely to be dozens if not hundreds of individuals walking about town knowing or unknowingly positive but unmasked and not keeping any distance…and so any other individual in town is at quite high risk becoming infected…certainly much more likely than from me on an empty golf course.  So why the heck am I depriving myself (accepting it‘s not much of a deprivation and not one I’m bothered about suffering…but I still ask myself). I might not agree with the current strategy, but it is the only one we have.

And in a weeks time free tests are vanishing…in fact I haven’t been able to order any this week.  So how the heck am I supposed to test myself if I feel a bit rough and then test myself until I am clear.  I fear this ‘freedom’ we have to use our common sense, and test when in doubt, is taking us down a problematic path.

I do hope that none of the above is deemed political…because it’s just real and how it is.
		
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"Why the heck are you depriving yourself?"

Why do you think. You are positive. Anyone comes in close contact with you may become infected! The fact that (now many)?others are infected doesn't change that.!
Suppose that someone positive like you drives to his golf course for a solitary round and en route has a prang involving your vulnerable BIL with whom he then has close prolonged contact. ?  What would your view be about that?
I just don't see how you can justify to yourself being out and about while positive and infectious 
You don't need some authority/government to guide you on this, do you?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 26, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I dare it because it is what you indicate by what you say.
You haven't addressed the point about what happens when things outside your control happen ( as they unfortunately sometimes do) and your intended non contact becomes one of intimate contact -just because you were not eliminating risk when you were able to ( by isolating).
To me and others here it is a no brainer If you know you are positive , then behave to eliminate risk to others. To not do so is to not care re others.
		
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You are dillisulional. Me and many others think it is safe and the risks very low. You and others obviously do not. That is fine. Why do you have to keep banging on this same point when the 2 different views have been done to death over the last day. I am bored about people spouting the extreme potential dangers of a car incident or perhaps a person approaching you out in the open air. In both cases, the risks are so low as to be near zero unless you are a moron and want to go hug someone. There are lots of infected people out there that do not know it - and that is a far bigger danger to you when you are shopping for your weetabix or taking delivery of your home shopping than a person who knows he is infected and chooses to go out on his own in a field and with a clear intention of being outside and maintaining a safe distance from anyone he encouters. And how on earth do you think intended non contact suddenly becomes intimate contact!! Anyway, crack on with your debate. I am out


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2022)

SammmeBee said:



			Pay for the LFTs if you’re that worried……
		
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As already mentioned to @SR, I forgot I could do that and fortunately I can afford to.  But that’s not really the answer to the wider ‘availability’ question as not all can afford.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			"Why the heck are you depriving yourself?"

Why do you think. You are positive. Anyone comes in close contact with you may become infected! The fact that (now many)?others are infected doesn't change that.!
Suppose that someone positive like you drives to his golf course for a solitary round and en route has a prang involving your vulnerable BIL with whom he then has close prolonged contact. ?  What would your view be about that?
I just don't see how you can justify to yourself being out and about while positive and infectious
You don't need some authority/government to guide you on this, do you?
		
Click to expand...

If I don’t have to isolate then I can easily find justification to go onto a golf course by myself.   As others on here have done for me.

I have already posted a couple of times I didn’t really have any intention of going out…

But as the thought had come into my head (it being a lovely day and all that and I knew course would be dead quiet early evening), I found I could come up with justification that I could mitigate risk, and I wondered what others’ thinking was.  And so I asked.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

Day 6, still a proper strong line

House is definitely doing my head in, decided as it's Sunday (Sunday mornings are dead here) that I'll go for a walk with the twins for their nap .  They sleep better in the fresh air and will do my knee good to exercise / get fresh air


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## Swango1980 (Mar 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Day 6, still a proper strong line

House is definitely doing my head in, decided as it's Sunday (Sunday mornings are dead here) that I'll go for a walk with the twins for their nap .  They sleep better in the fresh air and will do my knee good to exercise / get fresh air
		
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Careful. Are you on a flight path? If so, if a plane crashes you may get hit by debris and get injured. You will then put emergency workers at risk of catching Covid.


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## ExRabbit (Mar 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Careful. Are you on a flight path? If so, if a plane crashes you may get hit by debris and get injured. You will then put emergency workers at risk of catching Covid.
		
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Try not to be such an arse plz!

It's not something to make jokes about and it doesn't make you look as clever as you think it does.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Day 5, still strong line

Today's is My birthday so rather than risk spreading too much I agreed people could come to garden to see the kids

My parents and sister came at 10:30 , I wore a mask (outside yes)

At 13:00 mother in law came

Everyone gone now

To spend the rest inside with the kids
		
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Happy birthday to us both 😁👍


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Happy birthday to us both 😁👍
		
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22 year anniversary of the best goal the premier League has ever seen aswell 

(Di Canio volley)


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			Try not to be such an arse plz!

It's not something to make jokes about and it doesn't make you look as clever as you think it does.
		
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His comments are no more ridiculous than many others on this thread when it comes to the “what if” arguments.


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## ExRabbit (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			His comments are no more ridiculous than many others on this thread when it comes to the “what if” arguments.
		
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He was just taking it to another level - I don't think satire is appropriate just yet.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 27, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			He was just taking it to another level - I don't think satire is appropriate just yet.
		
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It made me smile. The levels of whatifery have reached new heights on this thread.


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## ExRabbit (Mar 27, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			It made me smile. The levels of *whatifery* have reached new heights on this thread.
		
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I had to google that word.

Glad you could smile about it.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			He was just taking it to another level - I don't think satire is appropriate just yet.
		
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Satire is always appropriate

If you can't laugh then life sucks


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Satire is always appropriate

If you can't laugh then life sucks
		
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Agreed, Paul. 

I absolutely respect that people are entitled to their opinions, but it has been apparent for a long time that, rather than seeking ways to live their lives as normally as possible, whilst maintaining their own well-being and that of others, too many are actively looking to prolong a form of personal lockdown.

As intelligent adults we should, after two years of saturation press and media coverage, be able to identify personal and third party risks, and take proportionate measures to mitigate them. It seems there has been a widespread loss of perspective and an ability to assess proportionality.

When I am infected with Covid again, and I doubtless will be, of course I will take steps to avoid infecting others. But those steps will not extend to locking myself away. If I want to go for a walk, I will. If I want to play golf on my own, I will. I haven’t had an accident in forty years of motoring, and have only broken down once despite driving 30k plus miles every year. As a consequence, I’m as satisfied as I can be that, if I travel ten miles to the golf club and back just once whilst infectious, the odds of either happening are pretty long. And if the odds aren’t so completely stacked in my favour and I end up at the roadside with a car refusing to budge, then I will dynamically assess and mitigate any new risk.

The apparent loss of all sense of reason and ability to think and act like intelligent adults, and I stress I’m not merely referring to this forum, is really rather worrying.


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## ExRabbit (Mar 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Satire is always appropriate

If you can't laugh then life sucks
		
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Whatever - this forum sucks these days.


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## Lilyhawk (Mar 27, 2022)

ExRabbit said:



			He was just taking it to another level - I don't think satire is appropriate just yet.
		
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Do you want to set up a mailing list and let the rest of us know when satire is appropriate again? 

Perhaps a list of topics. Would be appreciated.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 27, 2022)

One thing I noticed during my recent 1st brush with covid, was I had some pretty bizarre dreams!


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2022)

Lilyhawk said:



			Do you want to set up a mailing list and* let the rest of us know* *when satire is appropriate again?*

Perhaps a list of topics. Would be appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

Apparently, NOW.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed, Paul.

I absolutely respect that people are entitled to their opinions, but it has been apparent for a long time that, rather than seeking ways to live their lives as normally as possible, whilst maintaining their own well-being and that of others, too many are actively looking to prolong a form of personal lockdown.

As intelligent adults we should, after two years of saturation press and media coverage, be able to identify personal and third party risks, and take proportionate measures to mitigate them. It seems there has been a widespread loss of perspective and an ability to assess proportionality.

When I am infected with Covid again, and I doubtless will be, of course I will take steps to avoid infecting others. But those steps will not extend to locking myself away. If I want to go for a walk, I will. If I want to play golf on my own, I will. I haven’t had an accident in forty years of motoring, and have only broken down once despite driving 30k plus miles every year. As a consequence, I’m as satisfied as I can be that, if I travel ten miles to the golf club and back just once whilst infectious, the odds of either happening are pretty long. And if the odds aren’t so completely stacked in my favour and I end up at the roadside with a car refusing to budge, then I will dynamically assess and mitigate any new risk.

The apparent loss of all sense of reason and ability to think and act like intelligent adults, and I stress I’m not merely referring to this forum, is really rather worrying.
		
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I remember this being done to death when first lockdown hit, when you were allowed out for that one exercise a day etc

But you shouldn't drive there (in some opinions) as that drive you could have an accident 

It did get rather silly 

Tbh this lockdowns have left huge mental scars 

I'll use the example of my mother 

For Xmas she got the twins membership to the local softplay so they could go every Monday 

Now they had 1 bad week. No water their cuz of a leak and because it was still half term for out of London it was busier than she was expecting 

She now finds any excuse not to go .it was horrible etc

They came to my garden yesterday. I've got covid. It was My bday. Tbh I was happy for her not to come and see me in week but she insisted 

I wore a mask (outside in my own garden)

When she arrived she came round back, I said mum go in help yourself to tea etc I haven't touched anything today I've just got up 

Refused 

She was also wearing a mask. It's like mum my mask stops my covid getting you, you haven't got covid Dw

Her mask ofc came off when my wife made her tea 

And she was all over the kids 

It's that initial fear is fried onto people's brains 

Not playing down covid either .. it's awful and still around but people's fear of covid is as bad


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## AmandaJR (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed, Paul.

I absolutely respect that people are entitled to their opinions, but it has been apparent for a long time that, rather than seeking ways to live their lives as normally as possible, whilst maintaining their own well-being and that of others, too many are actively looking to prolong a form of personal lockdown.

As intelligent adults we should, after two years of saturation press and media coverage, be able to identify personal and third party risks, and take proportionate measures to mitigate them. It seems there has been a widespread loss of perspective and an ability to assess proportionality.

When I am infected with Covid again, and I doubtless will be, of course I will take steps to avoid infecting others. But those steps will not extend to locking myself away. If I want to go for a walk, I will. If I want to play golf on my own, I will. I haven’t had an accident in forty years of motoring, and have only broken down once despite driving 30k plus miles every year. As a consequence, I’m as satisfied as I can be that, if I travel ten miles to the golf club and back just once whilst infectious, the odds of either happening are pretty long. And if the odds aren’t so completely stacked in my favour and I end up at the roadside with a car refusing to budge, then I will dynamically assess and mitigate any new risk.

The apparent loss of all sense of reason and ability to think and act like intelligent adults, and I stress I’m not merely referring to this forum, is really rather worrying.
		
Click to expand...

Good points, well made. I think the previous pages of debate were sparked from the usual, not so subtle, digs at government policy..."well they don't say I can't".

Personally I'm trying to get back to something like normal with the exception of wearing masks when shopping and not shaking hands after golf! I invigilated a 6th form exam last week (1:1) and the student came in and shook my hand. I was a bit taken aback for both Covid but also the unexpected, but rather nice, gesture.


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## Ethan (Mar 27, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			I remember this being done to death when first lockdown hit, when you were allowed out for that one exercise a day etc

But you shouldn't drive there (in some opinions) as that drive you could have an accident

It did get rather silly

Tbh this lockdowns have left huge mental scars

I'll use the example of my mother

For Xmas she got the twins membership to the local softplay so they could go every Monday

Now they had 1 bad week. No water their cuz of a leak and because it was still half term for out of London it was busier than she was expecting

She now finds any excuse not to go .it was horrible etc

They came to my garden yesterday. I've got covid. It was My bday. Tbh I was happy for her not to come and see me in week but she insisted

I wore a mask (outside in my own garden)

When she arrived she came round back, I said mum go in help yourself to tea etc I haven't touched anything today I've just got up

Refused

She was also wearing a mask. It's like mum my mask stops my covid getting you, you haven't got covid Dw

Her mask ofc came off when my wife made her tea

And she was all over the kids

It's that initial fear is fried onto people's brains

Not playing down covid either .. it's awful and still around but people's fear of covid is as bad
		
Click to expand...

Part of the resistance to what some of us see/saw as reasonable public health measures is/was the unreasonable ones which gave the overall strategy a sense of unreasonableness. The Rule of 6 applying equally indoors (reasonable) and outdoors (unreasonable) was not based on any science or common sense. Likewise the one outdoors trip for exercise lasting no more than an hour was also pointless and unhelpful and undermined people's willingness to follow other more sensible measures.

Some measures applied at golf clubs, such as changing shoes in the car park and having an outdoors BBQ rather than indoors food service were reasonable, but


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Careful. Are you on a flight path? If so, if a plane crashes you may get hit by debris and get injured. You will then put emergency workers at risk of catching Covid.
		
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🙄


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Part of the resistance to what some of us see/saw as reasonable public health measures is/was the unreasonable ones which gave the overall strategy a sense of unreasonableness. The Rule of 6 applying equally indoors (reasonable) and outdoors (unreasonable) was not based on any science or common sense. Likewise the one outdoors trip for exercise lasting no more than an hour was also pointless and unhelpful and undermined people's willingness to follow other more sensible measures.

Some measures applied at golf clubs, such as changing shoes in the car park and having an outdoors BBQ rather than indoors food service were reasonable, but
		
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Ah yes the rule of 6 out doors. Utterly stupid. We are a family of 5, I think for My sisters birthday last year we meet her and her husband in the local park and because she was scared of getting into trouble I split us into two groups ..

It was utterly pointless as the twins were in their pram under a rain cover anyways


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Agreed, Paul.

I absolutely respect that people are entitled to their opinions, but it has been apparent for a long time that, rather than seeking ways to live their lives as normally as possible, whilst maintaining their own well-being and that of others, too many are actively looking to prolong a form of personal lockdown.

As intelligent adults we should, after two years of saturation press and media coverage, be able to identify personal and third party risks, and take proportionate measures to mitigate them. It seems there has been a widespread loss of perspective and an ability to assess proportionality.

When I am infected with Covid again, and I doubtless will be, of course I will take steps to avoid infecting others. But those steps will not extend to locking myself away. If I want to go for a walk, I will. If I want to play golf on my own, I will. I haven’t had an accident in forty years of motoring, and have only broken down once despite driving 30k plus miles every year. As a consequence, I’m as satisfied as I can be that, if I travel ten miles to the golf club and back just once whilst infectious, the odds of either happening are pretty long. And if the odds aren’t so completely stacked in my favour and I end up at the roadside with a car refusing to budge, then I will dynamically assess and mitigate any new risk.

The apparent loss of all sense of reason and ability to think and act like intelligent adults, and I stress I’m not merely referring to this forum, is really rather worrying.
		
Click to expand...

As an ex Police Officer did you ever stop a motorist, did you ever experience a car shunting another, people having punctures, cars stopped for speeding or dangerous driving.   What would your opinion have been if the motorist came up to you and explained they had measles or some other highly infectious condition.   Why is there a valid business for vehicle breakdown and recovery outfits, it's can only be due to the fact that people have accidents and their cars break down

You and others have a right to your opinions and others have theirs. There seems to be a pattern here of those advocating going out and about with Covid finding it necessary to use sarcasm and insulting comments to make their argument.     Why not keep it to the facts and make a case without playing the person rather than the ball.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			As an ex Police Officer did you ever stop a motorist, did you ever experience a car shunting another, people having punctures, cars stopped for speeding or dangerous driving.   What would your opinion have been if the motorist came up to you and explained they had measles or some other highly infectious condition.   Why is there a valid business for vehicle breakdown and recovery outfits, it's can only be due to the fact that people have accidents and their cars break down

You and others have a right to your opinions and others have theirs. There seems to be a pattern here of those advocating going out and about with Covid finding it necessary to use sarcasm and insulting comments to make their argument.     Why not keep it to the facts and make a case without playing the person rather than the ball.
		
Click to expand...

Billy made an excellent post that sums up what i and many others said - to then have the tirade of accusations of being uncaring, irresponsible etc - time to park your very well know views  and whatiferies and let things move on. Maybe chill out and go for a walk!


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			As an ex Police Officer did you ever stop a motorist, did you ever experience a car shunting another, people having punctures, cars stopped for speeding or dangerous driving.   What would your opinion have been if the motorist came up to you and explained they had measles or some other highly infectious condition.   Why is there a valid business for vehicle breakdown and recovery outfits, it's can only be due to the fact that people have accidents and their cars break down

You and others have a right to your opinions and others have theirs. There seems to be a pattern here of those advocating going out and about with Covid finding it necessary to use sarcasm and insulting comments to make their argument.     Why not keep it to the facts and make a case without playing the person rather than the ball.
		
Click to expand...

I dealt with hundreds of motorists during my service, ranging from stopping cars to give a driver words of advice, through to attending serious and fatal collisions, and not once did I have a single person tell me they had an infectious condition and ask me to keep my distance. That alone must give you some clue as to the likelihood of someone knowingly leaving their house with Covid *AND *being unlucky enough to be involved in an incident bringing them into close contact with other people.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I dealt with hundreds of motorists during my service, ranging from stopping cars to give a driver words of advice, through to attending serious and fatal collisions, and not once did I have a single person tell me they had an infectious condition and ask me to keep my distance. That alone must give you some clue as to the likelihood of someone knowingly leaving their house with Covid *AND *being unlucky enough to be involved in an incident bringing them into close contact with other people.
		
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You can't compare the likelihood of someone having Covid to other infectious conditions, the numbers with Covid in the country are now massive.  If it's OK for infected people to drive that's a very large number of potentially infected drivers.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Billy made an excellent post that sums up what i and many others said - to then have the tirade of accusations of being uncaring, irresponsible etc - time to park your very well know views  and whatiferies and let things move on. Maybe chill out and go for a walk!
		
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Why do you exaggerate so much.  What 'tirade of accusations' are you referring to?    Your own views are very well known and thanks for the advice but maybe you should take a spoonful of your own medication.  I'm really chilled thanks.


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You can't compare the likelihood of someone having Covid to other infectious conditions, the numbers with Covid in the country are now massive.  If it's OK for infected people to drive that's a very large number of potentially infected drivers.
		
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You asked me a question, and I answered it. The number of motorists having interactions with the police represents a minuscule percentage of the number of vehicles on the roads. That is a fact. And you asked for facts.

Everyday life is all about making decisions. It’s what allows us to function at a basic level. And identifying risks, and then mitigating those risks, forms part of the decision making process.

There is risk in everything we do. Getting up in the morning and walking down the stairs presents risk. Boiling a kettle and making a cup of tea presents risk, as does stepping in the shower and eventually, perish the thought, out of the front door.

But we have to be proportionate and balance the risks against the likely outcomes, or we simply cease to function. And I will maintain, based on my knowledge of the facts when it comes to motoring, that the likelihood of public interaction owing to an unforeseen event whilst driving to the golf club, country park or wherever, is so small, that the risk becomes negligible. Even if the worst happens, you can dynamically reassess your situation and introduce further steps to mitigate any new risk.

If you or anyone else are unwilling to take that risk then that is your prerogative, but don’t impose your opinions on others and expect them all to follow suit. Because others are able to take proportionate risks to allow them to live their lives, not simply exist.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			You asked me a question, and I answered it. The number of motorists having interactions with the police represents a minuscule percentage of the number of vehicles on the roads. That is a fact. And you asked for facts.

Everyday life is all about making decisions. It’s what allows us to function at a basic level. And identifying risks, and then mitigating those risks, forms part of the decision making process.

There is risk in everything we do. Getting up in the morning and walking down the stairs presents risk. Boiling a kettle and making a cup of tea presents risk, as does stepping in the shower and eventually, perish the thought, out of the front door.

But we have to be proportionate and balance the risks against the likely outcomes, or we simply cease to function. And I will maintain, based on my knowledge of the facts when it comes to motoring, that the likelihood of public interaction owing to an unforeseen event whilst driving to the golf club, country park or wherever, is so small, that the risk becomes negligible. Even if the worst happens, you can dynamically reassess your situation and introduce further steps to mitigate any new risk.

If you or anyone else are unwilling to take that risk then that is your prerogative, but don’t impose your opinions on others and expect them all to follow suit. Because others are able to take proportionate risks to allow them to live their lives, not simply exist.
		
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I can't impose anything on others. I can only pass an opinion.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 27, 2022)

Let’s agree to disagree and move on please


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 27, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			One thing I noticed during my recent 1st brush with covid, was I had some pretty bizarre dreams!
		
Click to expand...

I ALL NIGHT had the words repeating  “bovingdon Fab” which is a fab shop in Canada and alongside those words dreaming of bits of stainless steel clanging together. it just wouldn’t end.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 27, 2022)

Well right now to add onto the Covid going through schools There is also outbreaks of - chicken pox , Scarlett fever , D&V and hand foot and mouth 😲 and sorry plus worms 😂


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## Imurg (Mar 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well right now to add onto the Covid going through schools There is also outbreaks of - chicken pox , Scarlett fever , D&V and hand foot and mouth 😲 and sorry plus worms 😂
		
Click to expand...

Anyone seen 4 dodgy looking Dudes on horseback recently..?


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Anyone seen 4 dodgy looking Dudes on horseback recently..?
		
Click to expand...

They follow me from tee to green. Every round. Giggling.


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## WGCRider (Mar 27, 2022)

Need a bit of advise. I have Covid. Everyone else as out yesterday and the doorbell rang. Look out he window and saw it was our MP (a senior cabinet minister) canvasing in the local elections. I opened the door and had a good long chat with with? That's okay right - he was outdoors (no chance I let him in the house)


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			Need a bit of advise. I have Covid. Everyone else as out yesterday and the doorbell rang. Look out he window and saw it was our MP (a senior cabinet minister) canvasing in the local elections. I opened the door and had a good long chat with with? That's okay right - he was outdoors (no chance I let him in the house)
		
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Member of this cabinet? According to those guys covid is over so perfectly fine lol


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## Swango1980 (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			As an ex Police Officer did you ever stop a motorist, did you ever experience a car shunting another, people having punctures, cars stopped for speeding or dangerous driving.   What would your opinion have been if the motorist came up to you and explained they had measles or some other highly infectious condition.   Why is there a valid business for vehicle breakdown and recovery outfits, it's can only be due to the fact that people have accidents and their cars break down

You and others have a right to your opinions and others have theirs. There seems to be a pattern here of those advocating going out and about with Covid finding it necessary to use sarcasm and insulting comments to make their argument.     Why not keep it to the facts and make a case without playing the person rather than the ball.
		
Click to expand...

I have not been a police officer. However, when police officers stop a vehicle do they jump in the car with the driver, windows closed and stay there for a long enough time to pick up an potential infectious disease. Or, do they stand outside in the open air whilst processing the details? 

I'd imagine police officers would feel at much higher risk when making an actual arrest and having to potentially manhandle someone.


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2022)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well right now to add onto the Covid going through schools There is also outbreaks of - chicken pox , Scarlett fever , D&V and hand foot and mouth 😲 and sorry plus worms 😂
		
Click to expand...

You mean...'the usual school ailments'!


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## Ethan (Mar 27, 2022)

I think some of the Covid decision makers had Scarlett Fever - I am pretty sure I heard at least one of them saying 'Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn'.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Good points, well made. *I think the previous pages of debate were sparked from the usual, not so subtle, digs at government policy..."well they don't say I can't".*

Personally I'm trying to get back to something like normal with the exception of wearing masks when shopping and not shaking hands after golf! I invigilated a 6th form exam last week (1:1) and the student came in and shook my hand. I was a bit taken aback for both Covid but also the unexpected, but rather nice, gesture.
		
Click to expand...


He doesn't do that, he said so...


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			.. but it has been apparent for a long time that, rather than seeking ways to live their lives as normally as possible, whilst maintaining their own well-being and that of others, too many are actively looking to prolong a form of personal lockdown.
...
		
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Or are simply opting for maximum protection for themselves and others.


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## Old Skier (Mar 27, 2022)

South Korean doctor reckons if you haven’t had Covid, you haven’t got any friends


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I have not been a police officer. However, when police officers stop a vehicle do they jump in the car with the driver, windows closed and stay there for a long enough time to pick up an potential infectious disease. Or, do they stand outside in the open air whilst processing the details?

I'd imagine police officers would feel at much higher risk when making an actual arrest and having to potentially manhandle someone.
		
Click to expand...

Seconds is long enough to catch Covid, the current strains are very highly contagious, that's why the numbers have increased so dramatically.  Police have got into people's cars, I've had one get into mine when I was stopped, it was some time ago though.

The point I'm making is whatever the reason why take unnecessary risks, surely we can manage a week away from golf without becoming stir crazy.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Seconds is long enough to catch Covid, the current strains are very highly contagious, that's why the numbers have increased so dramatically.  Police have got into people's cars, I've had one get into mine when I was stopped, it was some time ago though.

The point I'm making is whatever the reason why take unnecessary risks, surely we can manage a week away from golf without becoming stir crazy.
		
Click to expand...

It's entirely down to chance.

My wife got it 11th, I didn't get it until 22nd

Eldest in middle at 16th 

Twins in the same house same air etc didn't get it 

So "it's a second" doesn't overly come into it, you could stand next to someone with it and not get it 

My daughter spat in my mum's mouth (not on purpose) and next day my daughter tested positive 

My mum hasn't test postive 

So it's down to good old chance.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 27, 2022)

I should of taken me dad for his memory test results last Monday to find out if he has dementia/ alziehmers etc. he caught covid last weekend so that was changed to tomorrow. He still has COVID. So looks like being a telephone consultatio.☹️


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



*I should of taken me dad for his memory test* results last Monday to find out if he has dementia/ alziehmers etc. he caught covid last weekend so that was changed to tomorrow. He still has COVID. So looks like being a telephone consultatio.☹️
		
Click to expand...

I thought you were going to say you forgot...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 27, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Good points, well made. I think the previous pages of debate were sparked from the usual, not so subtle, digs at government policy..."well they don't say I can't".
		
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Fortunately I know that it was not I making or having any such dig…and so I can breath and sleep easy knowing that no infraction might be coming my way 👍🥳


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 27, 2022)

Worrying number of my regular PP's now feeling rough and a few have tested positive. Had close contact last weekend and on Wednesday with several and so tested this morning when I found out. All negative and got a PCR to do in work tomorrow.


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			I have not been a police officer. However, when police officers stop a vehicle do they jump in the car with the driver, windows closed and stay there for a long enough time to pick up an potential infectious disease. Or, do they stand outside in the open air
		
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SocketRocket said:



			Police have got into people's cars
		
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In thirty years I never, ever got into a member of the public’s car to deal with them during a stop/check. Any police officer who does that wants their bumps feeling. I either dealt with people at the roadside, in the event the stop was minor or, more often than not, they were sat in the back of my car.


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			In thirty years I never, ever got into a member of the public’s car to deal with them during a stop/check. Any police officer who does that wants their bumps feeling. I either dealt with people at the roadside, in the event the stop was minor or, *more often than not, they were sat in the back of my car*.
		
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Which 'achieves' *the same thing* as what the posts you quoted were suggesting/querying.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			In thirty years I never, ever got into a member of the public’s car to deal with them during a stop/check. Any police officer who does that wants their bumps feeling. I either dealt with people at the roadside, in the event the stop was minor or, more often than not, they were sat in the back of my car.
		
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Billy, but it could happen, maybe there is a new scenario that has not happened in the previous 30 years!


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Which 'achieves' *the same thing* as what the posts you quoted were suggesting/querying.
		
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I know. I was answering a direct question.

EDIT: Stop/checks continued throughout the height of the pandemic, with measures taken to mitigate the risk of infection. So the point is a moot.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			In thirty years I never, ever got into a member of the public’s car to deal with them during a stop/check. Any police officer who does that wants their bumps feeling. I either dealt with people at the roadside, in the event the stop was minor or, more often than not, they were sat in the back of my car.
		
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I have been stopped by a police officer on the motorway for a fairly minor matter. He got out of his car and came and sat in my passenger seat while explaining to me what he considered I had done wrong.  I have also seen TV programs of Traffic Police taking motorists into their car and showing them video footage of their driving. I spoke to a neighbour today who's is a recently retired long service Traffic Officer from Hampshire and he confirmed they did this.   Maybe he needs his bumps feeling 🙂
Sitting in the back of your car wouldn't be a good place either.

Anyhow, this discussion is becoming rather cyclic now and neither of us are going to change our view so probably best to leave it at that.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Billy, but it could happen, maybe there is a new scenario that has not happened in the previous 30 years!
		
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Are you capable of a discussion void of exaggeration and sarcasm?


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## hovis (Mar 27, 2022)

Blimey.  So you have covid and you happen to break down or get pulled over by the police!!! What are the chances.  In 22 years of driving I've never broken down or been pulled by police.   Even if you do you simply say " hello Mr police officer, you should know I have covid" 🤷‍♂️. 
Some of you lot are really reaching with these covid "what ifs'"


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## Billysboots (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I have been stopped by a police officer on the motorway for a fairly minor matter. He got out of his car and came and sat in my passenger seat while explaining to me what he considered I had done wrong.  I have also seen TV programs of Traffic Police taking motorists into their car and showing them video footage of their driving. I spoke to a neighbour today who's is a recently retired long service Traffic Officer from Hampshire and he confirmed they did this.   *Maybe he needs his bumps feeling* 🙂
Sitting in the back of your car wouldn't be a good place either.

Anyhow, this discussion is becoming rather cyclic now and neither of us are going to change our view so probably best to leave it at that.
		
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Yes, he does. I shouldn’t need to spell it out to an intelligent individual, but no police officer with a modicum of common sense is routinely going to sit in the passenger seat of a car when they have no clue how the driver is going to respond to being stopped. The driver could be drunk, wanted for serious offences, the car could be on false plates/stolen - you name it, there could be any number of reasons that driver would drive off, at speed, with the cop who needs their bumps feeling either in the passenger seat or, worse still, half in the car.

But, hey, I was only a Traffic cop involved in motorway policing for twenty years. What do I know? 🙄


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## pauljames87 (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Yes, he does. I shouldn’t need to spell it out to an intelligent individual, but no police officer with a modicum of common sense is routinely going to sit in the passenger seat of a car when they have no clue how the driver is going to respond to being stopped. The driver could be drunk, wanted for serious offences, the car could be on false plates/stolen - you name it, there could be any number of reasons that driver would drive off, at speed, with the cop who needs their bumps feeling either in the passenger seat or, worse still, half in the car.

But, hey, I was only a Traffic cop involved in motorway policing for twenty years. What do I know? 🙄
		
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Maybe he fancied him and he wasn't a police officer ...


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## BiMGuy (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Yes, he does. I shouldn’t need to spell it out to an intelligent individual, but no police officer with a modicum of common sense is routinely going to sit in the passenger seat of a car when they have no clue how the driver is going to respond to being stopped. The driver could be drunk, wanted for serious offences, the car could be on false plates/stolen - you name it, there could be any number of reasons that driver would drive off, at speed, with the cop who needs their bumps feeling either in the passenger seat or, worse still, half in the car.

But, hey, I was only a Traffic cop involved in motorway policing for twenty years. What do I know? 🙄
		
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Really, it’s never been mentioned before 😂


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## Swango1980 (Mar 27, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Which 'achieves' *the same thing* as what the posts you quoted were suggesting/querying.
		
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So, whether a police officer either gets into the persons car, or gets the person to sit in the police car, what sort of reasons would this be for? No tax or insurance? Speeding? Suspected drunk driving? Damaged vehicle? Stolen vehicle?

Can we assume that the OP, who wondered about playing golf, will unlikely get pulled over for any of these offences? And, if he does, he has more to be ashamed off than playing golf when getting over Covid.


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I have been stopped by a police officer on the motorway for a fairly minor matter. He got out of his car and came and sat in my passenger seat while explaining to me what he considered I had done wrong.  I have also seen TV programs of Traffic Police taking motorists into their car and showing them video footage of their driving. I spoke to a neighbour today who's is a recently retired long service Traffic Officer from Hampshire and he confirmed they did this.   Maybe he needs his bumps feeling 🙂
*Sitting in the back of your car wouldn't be a good place either.*

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On what police service or training do you base this advice



SocketRocket said:



*Anyhow, this discussion is becoming rather cyclic now and neither of us are going to change our view so probably best to leave it at that.*

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Why do these cyclic discussions always have to end after you've had the last word?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you capable of a discussion void of exaggeration and sarcasm?
		
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it only gets turned into a fantasy novel when your ridiculous exagerations of any potential dangers come into play after the normal views have been aired


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			it only gets turned into a fantasy novel when your ridiculous exagerations of any potential dangers come into play after the normal views have been aired
		
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So it's a No then.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 27, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's a No then.
		
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time for your coco - i am tired!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 27, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			On what police service or training do you base this advice



Why do these cyclic discussions always have to end after you've had the last word?
		
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Did you read the bit where I was stopped on a motorway?  Do I need Police training for that.

Should they end when someone else has the last word.

I've not made any insults or put downs in my posts.  I've tried to discuss the subject and support my point of view.   In return this has been met with sarcasm, insults and gross exaggeration.   I accept fully that some will hold a different point of view and want to explain their reasoning but I can't be responsible for posters who cannot discuss a subject without the need for personal attacks.


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## Swinglowandslow (Mar 27, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I dealt with hundreds of motorists during my service, ranging from stopping cars to give a driver words of advice, through to attending serious and fatal collisions, and not once did I have a single person tell me they had an infectious condition and ask me to keep my distance. That alone must give you some clue as to the likelihood of someone knowingly leaving their house with Covid *AND *being unlucky enough to be involved in an incident bringing them into close contact with other people.
		
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"Being informed "by someone you are dealing with re infectious disease is nowt to do with it.🤔

You say you have dealt with hundreds of motorists etc. Clearly you have.And no doubt other incidents also.
And how many of those incidents were planned, foreseen, anticipated, or expected by those motorists. Hardly any, of course,-it  being the nature of most police work.

You are advocating someone ( everyone) who is positive with Covid to  carry on almost as normal, certainly to  continue to drive.
But you reckon virtually none of them will be amongst the numbers in the kind of incidents you dealt with as a police officer. .? And of course, there are many  other front line police officers out there...doing what you did.
Murphy's law ( now called whatifery) exists, as you are aware more than most ordinary folk. No point talking as if it doesn't.
I'm not saying everyone who is positive should not do this and that.
If it's necessary , yes. If it isn't necessary then just wait a few days...till you're clear.


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			So, whether a police officer either gets into the persons car, or gets the person to sit in the police car, what sort of reasons would this be for? No tax or insurance? Speeding? Suspected drunk driving? Damaged vehicle? Stolen vehicle?

Can we assume that the OP, who wondered about playing golf, will unlikely get pulled over for any of these offences? And, if he does, he has more to be ashamed off than playing golf when getting over Covid.
		
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You'd need to ask Billyboots that question. My post simply equatedthe effect of the 2 actions - and was subsequently answered satisfactorily.


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## Foxholer (Mar 27, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			On what police service or training do you base this advice
..
		
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If it needs anything more than a passing mention, then I'd question the suitability of the 'trainee' for the job!


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2022)

Day 7

Very very faint line of postive today, which is great because following the pattern of my wife and daughters covid it went ..

Faint line 
Negative
Negative

So I'm not due back at work until Thursday night anyways now 

So I should be back


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## Billysboots (Mar 28, 2022)

BiMGuy said:



			You are advocating someone ( everyone) who is positive with Covid to  carry on almost as normal, certainly to  continue to drive.
		
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No I’m not. Would I advocate someone with Covid drives to a busy supermarket to do their shopping? No. Or to a cinema or theatre? No again. Or to go to work in their office? No. 

It depends on the wider context, and therefore the purpose of getting behind the wheel. So if someone with Covid wants to drive to their golf club for a solo game of golf, or to a suitable location for a walk? The purpose of the journey carries little or no risk and, I say again, the risk of any interaction during that journey is so low I, personally, would have no issue with it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 28, 2022)

Guys
Let’s change the record, it’s getting a bit like the oozlum bird, flying round in ever decreasing circles
👍


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 28, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Day 7

Very very faint line of postive today, which is great because following the pattern of my wife and daughters covid it went ..

Faint line
Negative
Negative

So I'm not due back at work until Thursday night anyways now

So I should be back
		
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I washed my nose out with soap and water after day 10 and were negative the next two days. 
Coincidence I don’t know but for some insane reason I tried to regrettably return to work.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 28, 2022)

Day 7 for me. Still not left the house. Put my name on the starting sheet for Saturday's comp.
That will be first handicap qualifying score of the year after two weeks without a game.
Missed all the good weather recently and forecast says 1d feels like -2d for Saturday morning,
Feel shattered even after my first decent night's sleep for a week.
Might try a test on Wednesday - day 9.


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## Crow (Mar 28, 2022)

Voyager EMH said:



			Day 7 for me. Still not left the house. Put my name on the starting sheet for Saturday's comp.
That will be first handicap qualifying score of the year after two weeks without a game.
Missed all the good weather recently and forecast says 1d feels like -2d for Saturday morning,
Feel shattered even after my first decent night's sleep for a week.
Might try a test on Wednesday - day 9.
		
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Same here on the time line, but I'd guess I had it last Monday. Tested yesterday morning and got a strong positive.

Still have a cough and runny nose but don't feel too bad, but if I went outside and tried to play golf then I suspect my usual booming drives and laser like long irons might not reach their usual distance. 

Will do a bit of pottering around in the garden today.


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## theoneandonly (Mar 28, 2022)

Crow said:



			Same here on the time line, but I'd guess I had it last Monday. Tested yesterday morning and got a strong positive.

Still have a cough and runny nose but don't feel too bad, but if I went outside and tried to play golf then I suspect my usual booming drives and laser like long irons might not reach their usual distance. 

Will do a bit of pottering around in the garden today.  

Click to expand...

Thats sounds risky to me. What if you dropped a sturdy flower pot on your toe and had to go to A&E!, Even worse you may break down on the way an expose the RAC man to your filthy germs. And what if Joe public stops to see if you're ok! What then! O.M.G have some thought for others, just lock your self up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2022)

LFT still showing a strong line this morning…😟

As I’m 7 days since 1st symptoms and 6 since first +ve  I‘m thinking I’ll be hitting ten days before I get negatives on two successive days. Must go check see what I’m supposed to do at ten days.  Guess I just keep isolating.

Frustratingly I feel normal other than the ache I have lower neck and between my shoulder blades. FortunatEly it’s just a bit of an ache and not painfully restrictive in any way.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LFT still showing a strong line this morning…😟

As I’m 7 days since 1st symptoms and 6 since first +ve  I‘m thinking I’ll be hitting ten days before I get negatives on two successive days. Must go check see what I’m supposed to do at ten days.  Guess I just keep isolating.
		
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after 10 FULL days you return to normal providing your temp is normal

whats happened with my wife, daughter (and looks like me) is very very strong solid lines followed by faint line and then negative 

I am on faint line day today


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## road2ruin (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LFT still showing a strong line this morning…😟

As I’m 7 days since 1st symptoms and 6 since first +ve  I‘m thinking I’ll be hitting ten days before I get negatives on two successive days. *Must go check see what I’m supposed to do at ten days.  Guess I just keep isolating*.
		
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The isolation period is for 10 days, as far as I know you don't have to keep isolating regardless of your test status. Our daughter was still showing a line after the full 10 days but we certainly weren't going to keep her indoors any longer and I don't think you're going to be contagious, that period if far earlier however the 10 days is given as a good safety net.


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## garyinderry (Mar 28, 2022)

Has any of the boffins in white coats been working out when the majority of the populations vaccines will begin to wane. 

Surely hospitalizations will rise quite a bit when this happens or is the large amounts of natural immunity enough to keep us ticking along as we are.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LFT still showing a strong line this morning…😟

As I’m 7 days since 1st symptoms and 6 since first +ve  I‘m thinking I’ll be hitting ten days before I get negatives on two successive days. Must go check see what I’m supposed to do at ten days.  Guess I just keep isolating.

Frustratingly I feel normal other than the ache I have lower neck and between my shoulder blades. FortunatEly it’s just a bit of an ache and not painfully restrictive in any way.
		
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same issues as now so same response. You know the views on leaving the house. But the only real common sense consideration is to aviod passing it on - and we know that means avoiding people indoors. You can exercise your judgement as to the outdoor issues, where it is very hard to catch unless someone is in your face


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Has any of the boffins in white coats been working out when the majority of the populations vaccines will begin to wane.

Surely hospitalizations will rise quite a bit when this happens or is the large amounts of natural immunity enough to keep us ticking along as we are.
		
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I believe it was hypothesized that the first jab was like having covid in terms of protection for further infection etc so whilst for example my booster was October so prob waning a bit I'm now topped up with covid to see me through until winter


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			same issues as now so same response. You know the views on leaving the house. But the only real common sense consideration is to aviod passing it on - and we know that means avoiding people indoors. You can exercise your judgement as to the outdoor issues, where it is very hard to catch unless someone is in your face
		
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So if still testing +ve after ten days I can leave the house but I still should not go into any indoor environment.  Well at least then I can play golf.🙄


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## road2ruin (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So if still testing +ve after ten days I can leave the house but I still should not go into any indoor environment.  Well at least then I can play golf.🙄
		
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After 10 days you are free to do whatever whether it's indoors or outside regardless of testing.


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## DRW (Mar 28, 2022)

garyinderry said:



			Has any of the boffins in white coats been working out when the majority of the populations vaccines will begin to wane.

Surely hospitalizations will rise quite a bit when this happens or is the large amounts of natural immunity enough to keep us ticking along as we are.
		
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If the older person, So far, holding up pretty well for hospitalisations, even in the very old over quite a long period. Long may that hold true

Infection control the vaccines are not great and wanes very quickly(see link below, if you wish to see). Hybrid immunity is the best btw, not that I am trying catch it, easier said than done, given the mad 1 in x people have covid figures atm given by ONS survey.

Not sure if you are aware the spring booster is now being rolled out to 75+ year olds, to help. Get you mums/dads and all you ChrisDs of the forum get booked in My mum is booked in the next week.

Some info here(page 8-12 are pretty good) :-

COVID-19 vaccine surveillance report - week 12 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

65+ below lower part the chart is the part to really look at :-




The 1 in x cases hospitalised chart I keep is showing similar and holding up pretty well(given the drop in testing and other variables going on)

Hope that helps.


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## Foxholer (Mar 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			After 10 days you are free to do whatever whether it's indoors or outside regardless of testing.
		
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That's not what the (latest) recommendations state....
*How long to stay at home and away from others*

If you have COVID-19, you can infect other people for up to 10 days from when your symptoms start. Many people will no longer be infectious to others after 5 days.

You can do a rapid lateral flow test from 5 days after your symptoms started (or from the day you had the test if you do not have symptoms) and another the next day.

If both tests are negative and you do not have a high temperature, you're less likely to pass COVID-19 to others and you can go back safely to your normal routine.

If your test result is positive on day 5, you can carry on doing rapid lateral flow tests every day until you get 2 negative test results in a row.

Report your test result after each test.

*Contact with people at higher risk from COVID-19*
You should avoid meeting people at higher risk from COVID-19 for 10 full days.

This starts from the day your symptoms started or, if you do not have symptoms, from the day you got a positive test result.

*How to avoid passing COVID-19 on to others*
*Do*

stay at home if you can – this helps reduce the number of people you have contact with
ask friends, family, neighbours or volunteers to get food and other essentials for you
follow advice on how to avoid spreading COVID-19 to people you live with
cancel any routine medical or dental appointments – if you’re worried about your health or asked to attend in person, let your medical contact (such as your GP or dentist) know about your symptoms or test result
*Don’t*

do not go to work, school or public places – if you’re unable to work from home, ask your employer about options available to you
do not have visitors in your home, including friends and family – except for people providing essential care or services
*If you need to leave your home*
If you need to leave your home while you’re still infectious, you should take steps to avoid spreading COVID-19.

*Do*

avoid contact with people at higher risk from COVID-19
avoid crowded places – if you need to use public transport, avoid using it at busy times of the day
limit close contact with people you do not live with – meet people outside if you can and stay at least 2 metres apart from them
wear a face covering that fits snugly against your face and has more than 1 layer
do any exercise outdoors and away from other people
wash your hands with soap and water or use hand sanitiser regularly throughout the day


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## road2ruin (Mar 28, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			That's not what the (latest) recommendations state....
*How long to stay at home and away from others*

If you have COVID-19, you can infect other people for up to 10 days from when your symptoms start. Many people will no longer be infectious to others after 5 days.

You can do a rapid lateral flow test from 5 days after your symptoms started (or from the day you had the test if you do not have symptoms) and another the next day.

If both tests are negative and you do not have a high temperature, you're less likely to pass COVID-19 to others and you can go back safely to your normal routine.

If your test result is positive on day 5, you can carry on doing rapid lateral flow tests every day until you get 2 negative test results in a row.

Report your test result after each test.

*Contact with people at higher risk from COVID-19*
You should avoid meeting people at higher risk from COVID-19 for 10 full days.

This starts from the day your symptoms started or, if you do not have symptoms, from the day you got a positive test result.

*How to avoid passing COVID-19 on to others*
*Do*

stay at home if you can – this helps reduce the number of people you have contact with
ask friends, family, neighbours or volunteers to get food and other essentials for you
follow advice on how to avoid spreading COVID-19 to people you live with
cancel any routine medical or dental appointments – if you’re worried about your health or asked to attend in person, let your medical contact (such as your GP or dentist) know about your symptoms or test result
*Don’t*

do not go to work, school or public places – if you’re unable to work from home, ask your employer about options available to you
do not have visitors in your home, including friends and family – except for people providing essential care or services
*If you need to leave your home*
If you need to leave your home while you’re still infectious, you should take steps to avoid spreading COVID-19.

*Do*

avoid contact with people at higher risk from COVID-19
avoid crowded places – if you need to use public transport, avoid using it at busy times of the day
limit close contact with people you do not live with – meet people outside if you can and stay at least 2 metres apart from them
wear a face covering that fits snugly against your face and has more than 1 layer
do any exercise outdoors and away from other people
wash your hands with soap and water or use hand sanitiser regularly throughout the day


Click to expand...

It doesn't say to stay in after 10 days though does it?

This is the important bit I think...

_If you have COVID-19, you can infect other people for up to 10 days from when your symptoms start. Many people will no longer be infectious to others after 5 days._

If you are still testing positive after 10 days it's likely to be residual virus rather than anything transmissible?


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## PNWokingham (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So if still testing +ve after ten days I can leave the house but I still should not go into any indoor environment.  Well at least then I can play golf.🙄
		
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i think it is common sense that dictates what you do now. Government have guidelines but the only thing that matters is to not infect others. So i refer back to my previous statement. And to add to the outside debate, i would have no probs being outside with someone who had covid, including playing golf with them - just keeping a safe meter or so distance in the open air


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## Foxholer (Mar 28, 2022)

road2ruin said:



			It doesn't say to stay in after 10 days though does it?

This is the important bit I think...

_If you have COVID-19, you can infect other people for up to 10 days from when your symptoms start. Many people will no longer be infectious to others after 5 days._

If you are still testing positive after 10 days it's likely to be residual virus rather than anything transmissible?
		
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It says what it says!
Anything, other than what it actually says, is your interpretation. Your interpretation might or might not be correct.

I can't definitively comment on your 'residual virus' suggestion, other than....'Seek medical advice'. It would be wrong to assume anything imo!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2022)

Well…the government guidelines that @road2ruin has provided seem 100% clear to me. 

Up to and including a 10th day I could be infectious and must isolate until I have a -ve test on consecutive days after 5 days and within the 10 - after 5 days with reducing risk to others, and a list of Does and Don’ts are provided for that 10 period.  After that 10 days I can get on with doing whatever I feel I wish to do and do not need to take any measures.

We will separate determine when we feel we should travel to my MiLs/BiLs.
.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 28, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Thats sounds risky to me. What if you dropped a sturdy flower pot on your toe and had to go to A&E!, Even worse you may break down on the way an expose the RAC man to your filthy germs. And what if Joe public stops to see if you're ok! What then! O.M.G have some thought for others, just lock your self up.
		
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Give it a rest 🙄


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## Swango1980 (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well…the government guidelines that @road2ruin has provided seem 100% clear to me.

Up to and including a 10th day I could be infectious and *must* isolate until I have a -ve test on consecutive days after 5 days and within the 10 - after 5 days with reducing risk to others, and a list of Does and Don’ts are provided for that 10 period.  After that 10 days I can get on with doing whatever I feel I wish to do and do not need to take any measures.

We will separate determine when we feel we should travel to my MiLs/BiLs.
.
		
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Is that "must" really a "should", as surely it is public health advice rather than legislation. Furthermore, the advice continues to explain what one should do when they are not isolating for whatever reason (e.g. exercise).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Is that "must" really a "should", as surely it is public health advice rather than legislation. Furthermore, the advice continues to explain what one should do when they are not isolating for whatever reason (e.g. exercise).
		
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Yes it should be a should rather than a must…

And as we have found out…one man’s ( or woman’s) common sense ‘should’ can be rather different from anothers’.


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## drdel (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well…the government guidelines that @road2ruin has provided seem 100% clear to me.

Up to and including a 10th day I could be infectious and must isolate until I have a -ve test on consecutive days after 5 days and within the 10 - after 5 days with reducing risk to others, and a list of Does and Don’ts are provided for that 10 period.  After that 10 days I can get on with doing whatever I feel I wish to do and do not need to take any measures.

We will separate determine when we feel we should travel to my MiLs/BiLs.
.
		
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Perhaps  if the LFTs are still positive after 10days a PCR might be an idea


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## pauljames87 (Mar 28, 2022)

drdel said:



			Perhaps  if the LFTs are still positive after 10days a PCR might be an idea
		
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That is against all guidelines

And PCR will pick up virus for up to 3 months 

So would be a waste of resources.

Complete 10 days. If feel well return to normal.


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## DanFST (Mar 28, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes it should be a should rather than a must…

And as we have found out…one man’s ( or woman’s) common sense ‘should’ can be rather different from anothers’.
		
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While you’re no longer legally required to self-isolate if you have COVID-19, you should try to stay at home and away from others to avoid passing on the virus.

This advice will be updated on 1 April 2022.

Check advice in other parts of the UK:


It is a should.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 29, 2022)

Remarkable how much like clockwork this covid has been in our house

11th march (Friday) wife postive
16th march (weds) eldest postive
18th march (Friday) wife 1st negative (day before faint positive)
22nd march (Tuesday) myself postive
23rd march (Wednesday) eldest 1st negative (day before faint postive)
29th march (Tuesday) once again 1st negative.

Now that Is a remarkable pattern. All of us postive and then a week later all negative

With the day before being faint negative

But what's even more remarkable is last night 8pm I thought do a test. If negative I could have done one at 8pm tonight and just saved mucking about .. still Wednesday normal either way

But no that was faint faint postive .. it was like the test was like nope wait

6am this morning all clear

Mental


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			That is against all guidelines

And PCR will pick up virus for up to 3 months

So would be a waste of resources.

Complete 10 days. If feel well return to normal.
		
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I was not referencing the guidelines. I was merely suggesting that it MIGHT be an idea for anyone who was still concerned after 10 days: eg. an option nothing more nothing less.

It seem posters are looking so hard for an argument they're reading stuff that's not there !


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## road2ruin (Mar 29, 2022)

drdel said:



			I was not referencing the guidelines. I was merely suggesting that it MIGHT be an idea for anyone who was still concerned after 10 days: eg. an option nothing more nothing less.

It seem posters are looking so hard for an argument they're reading stuff that's not there !
		
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I think the point being made was that a PCR is far more sensitive so if you're going to use it as a confirmatory option you might well find that your 10 days is going to be extended to 3 months. That said, given some people on here that might be for the best.....


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## pauljames87 (Mar 29, 2022)

drdel said:



			I was not referencing the guidelines. I was merely suggesting that it MIGHT be an idea for anyone who was still concerned after 10 days: eg. an option nothing more nothing less.

It seem posters are looking so hard for an argument they're reading stuff that's not there !
		
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This is how fake information starts tho, by posting good intentions.

If someone feels well after 10 days the advice is carry on as normal 

PCR is A a waste of money and B a waste of time.


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## drdel (Mar 29, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			This is how fake information starts tho, by posting good intentions.

If someone feels well after 10 days the advice is carry on as normal

PCR is A a waste of money and B a waste of time.
		
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You really have decided to firmly hang onto the wrong end of the stick.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 29, 2022)

drdel said:



			You really have decided to firmly hang onto the wrong end of the stick.
		
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Just correcting incorrect "advise"

But hey feel free to advise someone to take an test that's not needed a cost to the tax payer when it's likely to come back postive due to reasons outlined which will probably make them feel more worried 

Happy days.


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## SaintHacker (Mar 30, 2022)

Went to bed Saturday night feeling a little bit rough, thought i was just a bit overtired. Woke up sunday morning and thought I'd been run over by a steamroller in the night, literally took all my energy just to get up and go for a pee. Assumed the 'rona had finally caught up with me so took the tests, all negative. PCR also negative. So two days in bed and two on the sofa so far for what us essentially a (extreme) head cold. Sounds pathetic really but there ya go.🤷‍♂️ I can only think that not being round people for two years has weakened my immune system to the point that an otherwise annoying little bug has smashed me for 6.


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## Ethan (Mar 30, 2022)

SaintHacker said:



			Went to bed Saturday night feeling a little bit rough, thought i was just a bit overtired. Woke up sunday morning and thought I'd been run over by a steamroller in the night, literally took all my energy just to get up and go for a pee. Assumed the 'rona had finally caught up with me so took the tests, all negative. PCR also negative. So two days in bed and two on the sofa so far for what us essentially a (extreme) head cold. Sounds pathetic really but there ya go.🤷‍♂️ I can only think that not being round people for two years has weakened my immune system to the point that an otherwise annoying little bug has smashed me for 6.
		
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That sounds like flu rather than a head cold. Head cold usually restricted to upper respiratory tract, flu a generalised whole body experience with muscle aches and fatigue.


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## Reemul (Mar 30, 2022)

Well 2 weeks from getting Covid symptoms, I still feel like crap. Working from home this week, I have now passed my 10 days isolation but I still have a persistent cough, blocked nose, bad head and at times struggle for breath and feel very chesty. Tuesday was worse than Monday and today feels worse than Tuesday. Just trying to rest up as much as possible but frustrated at not getting better.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 30, 2022)

Up to 127 cases in the trust and a spike in A&E attendance. Restrictions back in place for visits and these now require evidence of a negative LFT on the day. 13 ICU nurses off and 9 doctors so staffing becoming an issue. It's coming back regardless of whether its tested for or numbers published


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## pauljames87 (Mar 30, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Up to 127 cases in the trust and a spike in A&E attendance. Restrictions back in place for visits and these now require evidence of a negative LFT on the day. 13 ICU nurses off and 9 doctors so staffing becoming an issue. It's coming back regardless of whether its tested for or numbers published
		
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Didn't you get the memo homer. Covid is a rich man's illness now and is over.. must be true.. I read it in the daily mail 🙄


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## BiMGuy (Mar 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Didn't you get the memo homer. Covid is a rich man's illness now and is over.. must be true.. I read it in the daily mail 🙄
		
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I heard that the Daily Mail is now putting a top secret vaccine in the ink it uses so it’s readers are protected from Covid just by reading the newspaper!


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Didn't you get the memo homer. Covid is a rich man's illness now and is over.. must be true.. I read it in the daily mail 🙄
		
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If only it was true. Not sure I would trust the Daily Mail to get the day of the week right.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 30, 2022)

We have our fiddle on a Tuesday and Thursday, a PP mentioned yesterday he could not get on Thursday/ tomorrow. He sent a txt in our watts app group today saying “Boom, Missis Has tested positive so I can get to golf tomorrow”. Now I know he has not tested positive but his missis got it last year and three days later I was pinged on the NHS app coz he tested positive. Coupled with the fact am off to Majorca with the grandsproggs next Saturday for there first hole in 2 years. So do I go golfing or not.Will I end up in his group, might not. Will I be with him in the 19th after, yes. Weather is rammel tomorrow so I can see me giving it a miss. I will be gobsmacked if he is not positive by the end of the weekend.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 30, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			We have our fiddle on a Tuesday and Thursday, a PP mentioned yesterday he could not get on Thursday/ tomorrow. He sent a txt in our watts app group today saying “Boom, Missis Has tested positive so I can get to golf tomorrow”. Now I know he has not tested positive but his missis got it last year and three days later I was pinged on the NHS app coz he tested positive. Coupled with the fact am off to Majorca with the grandsproggs next Saturday for there first hole in 2 years. So do I go golfing or not.Will I end up in his group, might not. Will I be with him in the 19th after, yes. Weather is rammel tomorrow so I can see me giving it a miss. I will be gobsmacked if he is not positive by the end of the weekend.
		
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Golf and risk covid or go away with the grandkids. Seems a proper no brainer. Yes I get we should be living "normally" but why take the risk?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Up to 127 cases in the trust and a spike in A&E attendance. Restrictions back in place for visits and these now require evidence of a negative LFT on the day. 13 ICU nurses off and 9 doctors so staffing becoming an issue. It's coming back regardless of whether its tested for or numbers published
		
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It's what's called 'Living with Covid' Homer.  Latest advice seems to be putting your fingers in your ears and shouting " Na na na na na" if anyone mentions it's getting out of control again.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Golf and risk covid or go away with the grandkids. Seems a proper no brainer. Yes I get we should be living "normally" but why take the risk?
		
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Sounds like there's not a lot of living normally in your Hospital.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 30, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It's what's called 'Living with Covid' Homer.  Latest advice seems to be putting your fingers in your ears and shouting " Na na na na na" if anyone mentions it's getting out of control again.
		
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Get that. Part of me agrees with the "living with it" and part of me is scared primarily for our nurses and doctors and the incoming storm. Not sure many of them have the stomach and energy for another wave but they'll find a way. What the long term effect that has on their own health and well being will be remains to be seen


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## Tashyboy (Mar 30, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It's what's called 'Living with Covid' Homer.  Latest advice seems to be putting your fingers in your ears and shouting " Na na na na na" if anyone mentions it's getting out of control again.
		
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sums it up nicely 😖


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## pauljames87 (Mar 30, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			We have our fiddle on a Tuesday and Thursday, a PP mentioned yesterday he could not get on Thursday/ tomorrow. He sent a txt in our watts app group today saying “Boom, Missis Has tested positive so I can get to golf tomorrow”. Now I know he has not tested positive but his missis got it last year and three days later I was pinged on the NHS app coz he tested positive. Coupled with the fact am off to Majorca with the grandsproggs next Saturday for there first hole in 2 years. So do I go golfing or not.Will I end up in his group, might not. Will I be with him in the 19th after, yes. Weather is rammel tomorrow so I can see me giving it a miss. I will be gobsmacked if he is not positive by the end of the weekend.
		
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Took me 11 days to test postive after the Mrs 

Wish I had just snogged her when she tested positive .. only cuz we all got it anyways and it dragged it on blooming ages 

I'd not risk it tash.. enjoy your time away


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## PNWokingham (Mar 30, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			It's what's called 'Living with Covid' Homer.  Latest advice seems to be putting your fingers in your ears and shouting " Na na na na na" if anyone mentions it's getting out of control again.
		
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Pathetic snipe as always. 1 in 10 probably have covid. You cannot control it. Therefore, it is what it is and you live with it, or keep whining like an 82 year old schoolboy


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## Tashyboy (Mar 30, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Took me 11 days to test postive after the Mrs

*Wish I had just snogged her *when she tested positive .. only cuz we all got it anyways and it dragged it on blooming ages

I'd not risk it tash.. *enjoy your time away*

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I will not be snogging him, I prefer the latter 😁👍


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## SocketRocket (Mar 30, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Pathetic snipe as always. 1 in 10 probably have covid. You cannot control it. Therefore, it is what it is and you live with it, or keep whining like an 82 year old schoolboy
		
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Oh dear, personal insults again.  You seem to believe any comment about the current Covid policy is aimed at you 😄

It's out of control, hospitalisations are rising at an alarming rate, deaths up, infections probably at record levels as many are no longer recorded.  We need some sensible policy to attempt to keep it under a modicum of control.


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## williamalex1 (Mar 30, 2022)

I'm going for my over 75 spring booster next month. 
Hopefully it'll boost my springs


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## Foxholer (Mar 30, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Pathetic snipe as always. 1 in 10 probably have covid. You cannot control it. Therefore, it is what it is and you live with it, or keep whining like an 82 year old schoolboy
		
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Bakatcha!


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## DanFST (Mar 31, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			We have our fiddle on a Tuesday and Thursday, a PP mentioned yesterday he could not get on Thursday/ tomorrow. He sent a txt in our watts app group today saying “Boom, Missis Has tested positive so I can get to golf tomorrow”. Now I know he has not tested positive but his missis got it last year and three days later I was pinged on the NHS app coz he tested positive. Coupled with the fact am off to Majorca with the grandsproggs next Saturday for there first hole in 2 years. So do I go golfing or not.Will I end up in his group, might not. Will I be with him in the 19th after, yes. Weather is rammel tomorrow so I can see me giving it a miss. I will be gobsmacked if he is not positive by the end of the weekend.
		
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You don't need a negative to get into Spain do you? 

I'm off to barbados in a few weeks, which does need one. So I will be in lockdown mode before!


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## HeftyHacker (Mar 31, 2022)

DanFST said:



			You don't need a negative to get into Spain do you? 

I'm off to barbados in a few weeks, which does need one. So I will be in lockdown mode before!
		
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My BiL and his missus are in Spain at the moment, apparently they asked whether they had a negative PCR test but didn't actually ask for proof. Which was good as the SiL had recently recovered from Covid and probs would have got a positive on a PCR.


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## Jamesbrown (Mar 31, 2022)

DanFST said:



			You don't need a negative to get into Spain do you?

I'm off to barbados in a few weeks, which does need one. So I will be in lockdown mode before!
		
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Top tip, you can drink the tap water. Don’t spend $60 on a posh bottle of water out of necessity like I did! 🤣


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## Tashyboy (Mar 31, 2022)

DanFST said:



			You don't need a negative to get into Spain do you?

I'm off to barbados in a few weeks, which does need one. So I will be in lockdown mode before!
		
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Am not sure, I think there’s a Spanish locator form to fill in 48 hrs before. Am out with a pal and his missis tonight. He was in hospital March 2020. His wife developed “ Lupus” I think it was so she is doing everything to avoid catching COVID. Ave cancelled golf and hoping to get into Gainsboro PING later today for a fitting 😉


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## Tashyboy (Mar 31, 2022)

Jamesbrown said:



			Top tip, you can drink the tap water. Don’t spend $60 on a posh bottle of water out of necessity like I did! 🤣
		
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I hope that posh water was called Gin. 😳


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## PNWokingham (Mar 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Bakatcha!
		
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What is that other than a moronic comment to boost your post count


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2022)

Reemul said:



			Well 2 weeks from getting Covid symptoms, I still feel like crap. Working from home this week, I have now passed my 10 days isolation but I still have a persistent cough, blocked nose, bad head and at times struggle for breath and feel very chesty. Tuesday was worse than Monday and today feels worse than Tuesday. Just trying to rest up as much as possible but frustrated at not getting better.
		
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How you testing though?  Good luck buying some if you don’t have any, though you might be just be very lucky with a last minute go at online order. And hoping you don‘t have or develop Long Covid (not much talk of that these days).


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## PNWokingham (Mar 31, 2022)

Scotland has a higher infection rate than England despite stricter restrictions?


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			What is that other than a moronic comment to boost your post count
		
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Bakatcha!


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Scotland has a higher infection rate than England despite stricter restrictions?
		
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Or maybe...Scotland has stricter restrictions *because* it has a higher infection rate than England!!


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

Effects from a bout of anything can persist for some time after the infection has gone. 
Those symptoms are also symptoms of other seasonal conditions.
I hope you get back to normal soon!


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## WGCRider (Mar 31, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			Pathetic snipe as always. 1 in 10 probably have covid. You cannot control it. Therefore, it is what it is and you live with it, or keep whining like an 82 year old schoolboy
		
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You sound like a top bloke! Without doubt one of the most selfish takes of the past 2 years.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 31, 2022)

Rate continue to rise and so every good reason to be concerned https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55279092


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## PNWokingham (Mar 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Or maybe...Scotland has stricter restrictions *because* it has a higher infection rate than England!!
		
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that was not the case from my memory. It just seems to highlight that the extra resrictions over recent months have not made any difference with the current strain.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 31, 2022)

Anecdotally, I think the Scotland infection rate is being caused by us lagging behind lifting restrictions because all we've done is move the wave of infection from earlier in the year to later in the year.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Anecdotally, I think the Scotland infection rate is being caused by us lagging behind lifting restrictions because all we've done is move the wave of infection from earlier in the year to later in the year.
		
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Do you think the Scottish restrictions make it easier to catch Covid?


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## Jimaroid (Mar 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you think the Scottish restrictions make it easier to catch Covid?
		
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Many people have stopped abiding by the restrictions. We had the typical early Scottish summer last week and it was "Taps Aff, Masks Aff" everywhere we went. Hoardes of people have just given up and don't care any more.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			Many people have stopped abiding by the restrictions. We had the typical early Scottish summer last week and it was "Taps Aff, Masks Aff" everywhere we went. Hoardes of people have just given up and don't care any more.
		
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So it's likely to be caused by no restrictions being used.


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## Jimaroid (Mar 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			So it's likely to be caused by no restrictions being used.
		
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As I said, I suspect we're just lagging behind lifting restrictions. Which I also imply to mean that we've generally been more patient in our adherance but for many that patience has now expired.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 31, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Rate continue to rise and so every good reason to be concerned https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55279092

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Just seen your link Homer and as much as I think it’s not pleasant reading, the figures are rammel. Me mum and dad had it last week but officially they are not recorded anywhere because they never went to any centre for a PCR. Now it’s only my opinion but now we can ” go out” with COVID I think folk are not bothering to be PCR tested.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 31, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Just seen your link Homer and as much as I think it’s not pleasant reading, the figures are rammel. Me mum and dad had it last week but officially they are not recorded anywhere because they never went to any centre for a PCR. Now it’s only my opinion but now we can ” go out” with COVID I think folk are not bothering to be PCR tested.
		
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Funnily enough, someone on our town FB page was moaning that they could not find a testing centre as they had closed. Others were pointing out that there was no need to go to a testing centre now. You do your LFT, if it is positive then you have it, behave accordingly, if it is negative then carry on. Obviously, this means the figures are now meaningless but to an extent, infection rates have been meaningless for a while now. They are no longer the barometer they once were, infection = hospitalisation = death. We have moved on from then.


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## Reemul (Mar 31, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Just seen your link Homer and as much as I think it’s not pleasant reading, the figures are rammel. Me mum and dad had it last week but officially they are not recorded anywhere because they never went to any centre for a PCR. Now it’s only my opinion but now we can ” go out” with COVID I think folk are not bothering to be PCR tested.
		
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It's not exactly difficult, when testing positive with a Lateral Flow you register it with the nhs as we did, you do not need a PCR to do this at all, it then gets added to the figures


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			As I said, I suspect we're just lagging behind lifting restrictions. Which I also imply to mean that we've generally been more patient in our adherance but for many that patience has now expired.
		
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I'm not trying to be difficult, I just find it hard to follow the logic.  Is it your opinion that the big infection increase in Scotland is due to people having restrictions like masks or is it due to them not wearing them.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Funnily enough, someone on our town FB page was moaning that they could not find a testing centre as they had closed. Others were pointing out that there was no need to go to a testing centre now. You do your LFT, if it is positive then you have it, behave accordingly, if it is negative then carry on. Obviously, this means the figures are now meaningless but to an extent, infection rates have been meaningless for a while now. They are no longer the barometer they once were, infection = hospitalisation = death. We have moved on from then.
		
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I guess the meaningful information are the numbers going into hospital with Covid and the death rate.  They will be self regulating and there can be no moving on from them.


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## PNWokingham (Mar 31, 2022)

Reemul said:



			It's not exactly difficult, when testing positive with a Lateral Flow you register it with the nhs as we did, you do not need a PCR to do this at all, it then gets added to the figures
		
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i didn't register mine, nor the wife, nor the myriad of friends i know who have had it over the past couple of months. As mentioned, the figures are now so poor and clearly we have no clue how accurate. What we do know is the 10% to 15% of the population that are positive is clearly a meaningful underestimation.


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Rate continue to rise and so every good reason to be concerned https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55279092

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Those figures are of absolutely no use if trying to determine whether the overall rate is rising or not! The (estimated) populations of each LA would need to be known to actually draw any conclusion from them. Presumably it IS known by whoever provides the stats.


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## Ethan (Mar 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Those figures are of absolutely no use if trying to determine whether the overall rate is rising or not! The (estimated) populations of each LA would need to be known to actually draw any conclusion from them. Presumably it IS known by whoever provides the stats.
		
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Those are per capita case rates, per 100k population, so are comparable.


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i didn't register mine, nor the wife, nor the myriad of friends i know who have had it over the past couple of months. As mentioned, the figures are now so poor and clearly we have no clue how accurate. *What we do know is the 10% to 15% of the population that are positive is clearly a meaningful underestimation*.
		
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And, if so, is quite possibly/likely the reason for the discrepancy between England and Scotland figures!
However, that 10-15% number bears no relation to the ONS value of 6.93% - a figure gathered by 'random selection', so unaffected by whether or not infection is registered! The ONS numbers ARE rising though.
Where exactly did you actually get that '10-15%' number from? Or did you simply make it up!


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Those are per capita case rates, per 100k population, so are comparable.
		
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Only if the actual number of people in each LA is (pretty much) the same - which it isn't by any means - or is known!


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## Ethan (Mar 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Only if the actual number of people in each LA is (pretty much) the same - which it isn't by any means - or is known!
		
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OK, well in conventional epidemiology, the per capita rate is pretty important and the basis for most comparisons. In your world, not so much.


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			OK, well in conventional epidemiology, the per capita rate is pretty important and the basis for most *comparisons*. In your world, not so much.
		
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It's fine if you are simply comparing - say Reading with Bracknell Forest - or even, as WAS useful, the increase or decrease in *each* LA. But when you want/need to aggregate the figures, say for whole of Berkshire, you have to go back to the base stats - either by using the original numbers gathered, or by back-calculating them.
I know, for example, that Bracknell Forest LA's population is significantly less than, say, Windsor and Maidenhead's - I used to live in Winkfield Row.
And to confirm..
How would you find an *overall* per capita rate of, say, a per capita rate from New Zealand (Population 5M) and one from England (Population 56M). But they could be compared!
FWIW. Much of my education/training and early career was in Statistics!


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## Ethan (Mar 31, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			It's fine if you are simply comparing - say Reading with Bracknell Forest - or even, as WAS useful, the increase or decrease in *each* LA. But when you want/need to aggregate the figures, say for whole of Berkshire, you have to go back to the base stats - either by using the original numbers gathered, or by back-calculating them.
I know, for example, that Bracknell Forest LA's population is significantly less than, say, Windsor and Maidenhead's - I used to live in Winkfield Row.
And to confirm..
How would you find an *overall* per capita rate of, say, a per capita rate from New Zealand (Population 5M) and one from England (Population 56M). But they could be compared!
		
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Well, the rate data will have absolute numbers to back it up and that can be aggregated in whatever way you like. 

As discussed many times here, I see no great problem comparing NZ with UK, despite the population difference. The larger population of the UK is illusory, and is combining numbers from the Isle of Skye with numbers from Tower Hamlets. You may as well thrown in numbers from the Moon. The UK is a composite of differing and to some extent separate populations with differing factors applying to them.


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## patricks148 (Mar 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not trying to be difficult, I just find it hard to follow the logic.  Is it your opinion that the big infection increase in Scotland is due to people having restrictions like masks or is it due to them not wearing them.
		
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Was in tesco the other night on the way to work, was speaking to a girl who used to work for me at the airport for about 20 mins, pretty much every person who went past under 30 was not wearing a mask. Went into M&S in town today, same scenario  in the indoor shopping centre. From what a read today most of the infections up here anyway are younger people. I think two schools have had to close infection rates.


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## drdel (Mar 31, 2022)

I see we've come full circle _again_ and are back to arguing 'comparability of stats'.

For Joe Public isn't it enough to know whether its basically rising or falling? - anything else needs careful analysis.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 31, 2022)

Our supply teacher budget in 2021/22 was 7500 - we actually spent 21,000


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Well, the rate data will have absolute numbers to back it up and that can be aggregated in whatever way you like.
...
		
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I totally agree. But, as I posted, they are useless 'as is'!


Ethan said:



			As discussed many times here, I see no great problem comparing NZ with UK, despite the population difference....
		
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Again, I agree. 'Comparing' is fine. But, as you state/agree, absolute/raw numbers are required for certain comparisons - unless the populations (the statistical term) were equal. Those were missing from the individual LA stats. Thus my 'are useless' comment. Of course, they would not have been 'useless' had they *all* been increasing, or *all* decreasing.


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

drdel said:



			...
For Joe Public isn't it enough to know whether its basically rising or falling? - anything else needs careful analysis.
		
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Agreed!
The old saying about there being 3 kinds of lies applies too!
I keep going back to a Sir Rob Muldoon statement that he tried to put across as positive - along the lines of..The rate of increase of inflation is falling! He was ousted shortly afterwards!


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## Ethan (Mar 31, 2022)

drdel said:



			I see we've come full circle _again_ and are back to arguing 'comparability of stats'.

For Joe Public isn't it enough to know whether its basically rising or falling? - anything else needs careful analysis.
		
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Yes, if you know there is a little or a lot about, and it is rising or falling, that is enough information for most people, and too much for some!


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## drdel (Mar 31, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Yes, if you know there is a little or a lot about, and it is rising or falling, that is enough information for most people, and too much for some!
		
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Ethan said:



			Yes, if you know there is a little or a lot about, and it is rising or falling, that is enough information for most people, and _*too much for some*_!
		
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I agree; especially given many people do not know the difference between mean, median and mode !!


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2022)

drdel said:



			I agree; especially given many people do not know the difference between mean, median and mode !!
		
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Surely it's 'the average person does not know...'


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## RichA (Mar 31, 2022)

I'm just relieved that a few of you went to university for 7 years so you can explain this Key Stage 3 mathematics to the rest of us simpletons.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 31, 2022)

RichA said:



			I'm just relieved that a few of you went to university for 7 years so you can explain this Key Stage 3 mathematics to the rest of us simpletons.
		
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Next week we'll learn about how to calculate percentages. Can't wait.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2022)

drdel said:



			I agree; especially given many people do not know the difference between mean, median and mode !!
		
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That's a rather aloof attitude. Most people are more inclined to be not interested rather than not understanding.


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## drdel (Mar 31, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather aloof attitude. Most people are more inclined to be not interested rather than not understanding.
		
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You're quite possibly right, 'Aloof' OK I reckon a few decades lecturing on analytics at p/grad level at Uni's in UK, EU and States give me justification for moaning about the state of knowledge of quantitative methods in those same countries among much of the businesses managers


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## GreiginFife (Mar 31, 2022)

drdel said:



			I agree; especially given many people do not know the difference between mean, median and mode !!
		
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I used to talk about people in terms of being average. But that’s just mean…


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## RichA (Mar 31, 2022)

drdel said:



			You're quite possibly right, 'Aloof' OK I reckon a few decades lecturing on analytics at p/grad level at Uni's in UK, EU and States give me justification for moaning about the state of knowledge of quantitative methods in those same countries among much of the businesses managers
		
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Did you learn much about humility?


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 31, 2022)

17 people in the train carriage I walked through. Most easily under 30 and none masked. Two older passengers and not masked. One of overseas descent that fell into the at risk category when Covid first came to prominence and certain ethnicities struggled(as indicated speaking in native tongue) with no mask. In fact there were two people in the whole carriage wearing a mask. People clearly not bothering and with no guidance from TV or media about rising infection rates and how infectious the current strain may be they'll simply carry on and risk infection. With hospital cases increasing (certainly in my trust) including ICU cases, I am concerned. All I can do is keep wearing a mask in public and see what I can do to avoid it


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## Pathetic Shark (Mar 31, 2022)

Which probably shows you are now in the minority.


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## RichA (Mar 31, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			17 people in the train carriage I walked through. Most easily under 30 and none masked. Two older passengers and not masked. One of overseas descent that fell into the at risk category when Covid first came to prominence and certain ethnicities struggled(as indicated speaking in native tongue) with no mask. In fact there were two people in the whole carriage wearing a mask. People clearly not bothering and with no guidance from TV or media about rising infection rates and how infectious the current strain may be they'll simply carry on and risk infection. With hospital cases increasing (certainly in my trust) including ICU cases, I am concerned. All I can do is keep wearing a mask in public and see what I can do to avoid it
		
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I was talking about this earlier because my MiL likes to know what it's like on the trains.
It's strange. Since COVID day 1, I've been standing at the front of the underground carriage with the window open. From there, if I can be bothered to look up from my book, I get a good view of two carriages.
I noticed a few days ago that my carriage had about 75% mask wearing and the other was probably less than 25% at the same time. If there's any logic to it, I haven't figured it out yet.
This is on the Victoria Line in rush hour.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 31, 2022)

RichA said:



			I was talking about this earlier because my MiL likes to know what it's like on the trains.
It's strange. Since COVID day 1, I've been standing at the front of the underground carriage with the window open. From there, if I can be bothered to look up from my book, I get a good view of two carriages.
I noticed a few days ago that my carriage had about 75% mask wearing and the other was probably less than 25% at the same time. If there's any logic to it, I haven't figured it out yet.
This is on the Victoria Line in rush hour.
		
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It is strange although I guess people are more prudent about the tube with the large numbers in close proximity, lack of ventilation and being squashed together on the train. I wonder how many ditch the mask as soon as they leave the station


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## pauljames87 (Mar 31, 2022)

Pathetic Shark said:



			Which probably shows you are now in the minority.
		
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Doesn't make him wrong though.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 31, 2022)

drdel said:



			You're quite possibly right, 'Aloof' OK I reckon a few decades lecturing on analytics at p/grad level at Uni's in UK, EU and States give me justification for moaning about the state of knowledge of quantitative methods in those same countries among much of the businesses managers
		
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You sound very clever indeed. Thanks for telling us.


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## Reemul (Apr 1, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			i didn't register mine, nor the wife, nor the myriad of friends i know who have had it over the past couple of months. As mentioned, the figures are now so poor and clearly we have no clue how accurate. What we do know is the 10% to 15% of the population that are positive is clearly a meaningful underestimation.
		
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Yes but you should, going on about not bothering as if it's something to be proud of just reflects poorly on you and then using it to justify why the figures are a joke.


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## drdel (Apr 1, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			You sound very clever indeed. Thanks for telling us.
		
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Just trying to keep you educated and up to speed.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2022)

drdel said:



			Just trying to keep you educated and up to speed.
		
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How wonderfully condescending of/for you!
Or perhaps....How condescendingly wonderful of/for you!
I'd sooner you applied the same 'good deed' atttitude to reducing consumer energy costs!


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## PNWokingham (Apr 1, 2022)

Reemul said:



			Yes but you should, going on about not bothering as if it's something to be proud of just reflects poorly on you and then using it to justify why the figures are a joke.
		
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totally and utterly out of order. Pathetic.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 1, 2022)

Just home from a funeral of a guy I worked with for 26 years. Packed crematorium and couldn't help but look around and think of the 1 in 13 current numbers.

Phil's poor Mum was too unwell to attend. Not sure if that was Covid related or just the impact of her son's sudden decline in health and passing at just 51.

I really do wish Covid would just do one


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2022)

drdel said:



			Just trying to keep you educated and up to speed.
		
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Even your academic standard may be struggling there.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 1, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Just home from a funeral of a guy I worked with for 26 years. Packed crematorium and couldn't help but look around and think of the 1 in 13 current numbers.

Phil's poor Mum was too unwell to attend. Not sure if that was Covid related or just the impact of her son's sudden decline in health and passing at just 51.

I really do wish Covid would just do one 

Click to expand...

Tough day and no age to pass. Are you ok though?


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## AmandaJR (Apr 1, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Tough day and no age to pass. Are you ok though?
		
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It was a weird day as caught up with so many old work pals but for a sad reason. Phil was pretty unique and his passing so suddenly shocked everyone. 

I think it reminded me how Covid is still having an impact. His last few days were in hospital and some restrictions on visiting and also that my mind turned to my own health and the risk of catching it today.

Thanks for asking


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## Tashyboy (Apr 1, 2022)

Did the Friday big shop earlier, I let a guy through at the til as he only had 4 things in his basket. He went to great lengths to explain how his wife lets him do the shopping as she is massively at risk due to health issues.Yet he is stood there with no mask on. What do you say.  In the last week I know of half a dozen folk who have caught COVID for the first time. Learning to live with it could mean learning to die with it.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 1, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Did the Friday big shop earlier, I let a guy through at the til as he only had 4 things in his basket. He went to great lengths to explain how his wife lets him do the shopping as she is massively at risk due to health issues.*Yet he is stood there with no mask on. What do you say.*  In the last week I know of half a dozen folk who have caught COVID for the first time. Learning to live with it could mean learning to die with it.
		
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Unless he's wearing a N95 or preferably a FFP2 or FFP3 mask then whether he wears one or not is only going to have a small effect on whether he catches it or not. The far bigger risk to him catching it is whether those around him are wearing masks or not.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 1, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unless he's wearing a N95 or preferably a FFP2 or FFP3 mask then whether he wears one or not is only going to have a small effect on whether he catches it or not. The far bigger risk to him catching it is whether those around him are wearing masks or not.
		
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If it is to PM2,5 standard, it offers some protection as that standard apparent will stop the particles ( of the virus) getting through. A lot of "blue masks " are to that standard. 
I was of the view you expressed, and thus used to say that masks were no use indoors (where aerosol carries the virus,)except to stop droplets.
That was disputed and I researched and found the PM 2.5 standard info.
So I now regard such masks as most helpful.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 1, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unless he's wearing a N95 or preferably a FFP2 or FFP3 mask then whether he wears one or not is only going to have a small effect on whether he catches it or not. The far bigger risk to him catching it is whether those around him are wearing masks or not.
		
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Fortunately for him I was, but if he is trying to protect his wife he is doing nothing about reducing the risk.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 1, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Unless he's wearing a N95 or preferably a FFP2 or FFP3 mask then whether he wears one or not is only going to have a small effect on whether he catches it or not. The far bigger risk to him catching it is whether those around him are wearing masks or not.
		
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The point is whether the person passes it on as well as catches it, almost any cloth mask will prevent the distance particles travel. The better the specification the better that will be.   There is absolutely unquestionable proof available to support the efficacy of wearing masks.


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## Foxholer (Apr 1, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Did the Friday big shop earlier, I let a guy through at the til as he only had 4 things in his basket. He went to great lengths to explain how his wife lets him do the shopping as she is massively at risk due to health issues.Yet he is stood there with no mask on. What do you say.  In the last week I know of half a dozen folk who have caught COVID for the first time. Learning to live with it could mean learning to die with it.
		
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If he only has 4 items, he's hardly 'doing the shopping' and would likely be further risking his and his wife's health (in her case 'life') by having to do repeat trips! Doesn't seem like particularly sensible planning and neither is his lack of mask - even if it only reduces the risk slightly as, in their case, every chance to reduce the risk should be taken!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 1, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			If he only has 4 items, he's hardly 'doing the shopping' and would likely be further risking his and his wife's health (in her case 'life') by having to do repeat trips! Doesn't seem like particularly sensible planning and neither is his lack of mask - even if it only reduces the risk slightly as, in their case, every chance to reduce the risk should be taken!
		
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Well if we going to fully judge the poor bloke for trying to do the right thing he should be getting the shopping delivered


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## Slime (Apr 1, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Well if we going to fully judge the poor bloke for trying to do the right thing he should be getting the shopping delivered
		
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But he's trying to do the right thing pretty badly.


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## FuzzyDuck (Apr 1, 2022)

Well I managed 2 years without catching, didn't even get it when my wife did a few months ago. Went to a 70's weekend two weeks ago and a few days later started snuffling. First LFT test was negative but after a could of days where I developed a minor cough I tested positive. After a week still testing positive but have virtually no symptoms. I've have had 4 vaccinations due to underlying conditions.


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## Foxholer (Apr 2, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Well if we going to fully judge the poor bloke for trying to do the right thing he should be getting the shopping delivered
		
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4 items?
I might agree, but we don't know whether there were other reasons for him to 'go to town' - like posting etc. Making assumptions can be embarrasing or even stupid!


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## AmandaJR (Apr 2, 2022)

FuzzyDuck said:



			Well I managed 2 years without catching, didn't even get it when my wife did a few months ago. Went to a 70's weekend two weeks ago and a few days later started snuffling. First LFT test was negative but after a could of days where I developed a minor cough I tested positive. After a week still testing positive but have virtually no symptoms. I've have had 4 vaccinations due to underlying conditions.
		
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That seems a current theme. For a long while it was rare to know anyone who had caught it (it seemed) but not now...


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## phillarrow (Apr 2, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			That seems a current theme. For a long while it was rare to know anyone who had caught it (it seemed) but not now...
		
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It's ripping through my workplace at the moment. It's never been this bad before, even when we were testing more regularly. 

I'm currently off work with my third bout of it and this one has hit me harder than the previous two. 

As you said in a previous post - I wish it would just do one now.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2022)

Going through the ICU staff like a dose of salts. Rostering a constant juggling act. I think there is myself, one of my ward clerks and the lead technician that are the only ones that have yet to get it over the two year period out of around 140 staff including the doctors


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 3, 2022)

Both Mrs and self now testing -ve and both well past 10 days.  I feel,fine, as I have since day 2, my wife is still hit by quite severe tiredness.  Daughter is also now -ve but she’s still feeling really rough.  Not good at all.  It’s rife in our locality and a lot of folk going down with it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 4, 2022)

Now running at 182 hospitalised patients (down to only 2 in ICU) and staff absence across the trust rising to the highest levels since the pandemic began. Becoming very worrying again and putting a lot of pressure on staff already drained and needing a real break. Not just the mental stress but the physical strain of proning patients regularly takes a physical toll on staff working 12 hour shifts


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## Ethan (Apr 4, 2022)

The general view seems to be that the virulence of omicron is similar to alpha, but the population impact has been mitigated by vaccination. So if the vaccination effect fades, or a variant that can escape vaccination comes along, trouble awaits.


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## Ethan (Apr 5, 2022)

Lancet paper showing that post-Covid, the risk of diabetes appears to be higher than in people who dod not have Covid. This is another example, in a growing body of evidence, that infection with Covid, even if mild, can cause inflammatory effects beyond the respiratory system. Reports of a great incidence of childhood diabetes have also been published, as well as myocardial, brain and vascular effects.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2022)

Ethan what’s your thoughts on Children having the vaccine.


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## Ethan (Apr 5, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan what’s your thoughts on Children having the vaccine.
		
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My 12 and 14 year old boys have both had it. We let them decide but when they asked my wife (also a doctor) and I, we both encouraged. 

If we had younger kids, we would get them vaxxed. 

The risks of Covid are greater than the immediate risk of death, which is very very low, but the risks of vax are also, in my opinion, extremely low. Vaccination now will hopefully offer some protection against nastier variants that will inevitably appear.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 5, 2022)

Ethan said:



			My 12 and 14 year old boys have both had it. We let them decide but when they asked my wife (also a doctor) and I, we both encouraged.

If we had younger kids, we would get them vaxxed.

The risks of Covid are greater than the immediate risk of death, which is very very low, but the risks of vax are also, in my opinion, extremely low. Vaccination now will hopefully offer some protection against nastier variants that will inevitably appear.
		
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I have half mentioned it to me daughter who has two kids 9 and 6. I will be having a good natter with her about it.personally if they were mine they would of already had it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 5, 2022)

Have hit 200 patients in the trust. Ironically the 2 we have in ICU are no longer deemed infectious (both well over + 10 days infectious).


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## Ethan (Apr 6, 2022)

Highest ever levels of community Covid as plans to close this study remain in force. https://news.sky.com/story/covid-ca...ngland-influential-react-study-finds-12583279

This study is necessary to get an early jump on changing patterns. The strategy of 'its just a cold' and sticking fingers in ears is wrong and dangerous. The official argument is to save costs, but the costs are modest compared to the amount spunked away on useless PPE in the VIP/crony fast track.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 6, 2022)

Got a feeling covid is an issue at the club...might just be coincidence but of four of us due to be playing a 4BBB match this friday I heard yesterday that two have just tested positive in last couple of days and so we have to rearrange, and I'm not a week out of self isolation.  Any coincidence with members having stopped taking any infection control measures?

Fortunately wife is now feeling a bit better nearly three weeks after being infected, but still gets tired easy, and daughter feels better also three weeks on, but still not feeling 100%.  I seem to be fine...I think I have been lucky with my symptoms.


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## chrisd (Apr 6, 2022)

After 2 years of doing our very best to avoid Covid Mrs d has finally succumbed- luckily not too bad the symptoms


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## chrisd (Apr 6, 2022)

chrisd said:



			After 2 years of doing our very best to avoid Covid Mrs d has finally succumbed- luckily not too bad the symptoms
		
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Just tested and I have it too  ....... whoopie 😖😖


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## IanM (Apr 6, 2022)

Since covid we've only done the shopping "click and collect."

Regardless of covid, why would we ever spend time walking round a supermarket ever again?


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## Ethan (Apr 6, 2022)

IanM said:



			Since covid we've only done the shopping "click and collect."

Regardless of covid, why would we ever spend time walking round a supermarket ever again?
		
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We have done a weekly shopping delivery. Regular slot on Monday morning, works beautifully.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 6, 2022)

So if I've been in a building with someone who is now positive - certainly social-distanced for much of that...no symptoms...do I test?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 6, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			So if I've been in a building with someone who is now positive - certainly social-distanced for much of that...no symptoms...do I test?
		
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Nope. Test if you start to feel symptons but otherwise carry on 👍. It's the next step, psychologically, to take and it is a big one.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Nope. Test if you start to feel symptons but otherwise carry on 👍. It's the next step, psychologically, to take and it is a big one.
		
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I'm not disputing your advice as I agree with you, but for the last year or more we've been told that lateral flow tests are very good at picking up symptomless Covid but if you had symptoms you should get a PCR test as a LFT wasn't as accurate in those circumstances. Now PCR tests have been scrapped and we're being told to use the LFTs. Seems a very strange decision.

I suspect that to discuss the reasons for this would lead us into forbidden territory and result in the wrath of Fragger as I believe it's a political decision rather than a public health decision.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2022)

So as covid starts to rack up in the hospital so it begins again for ICU. Up from 2 (no longer infectious) to 5 new overnight admissions (all positive) so 7 in total. Getting very close to declaring a major incident for A&E as number visiting increasing daily are exceeding capacity and current staffing levels


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## AmandaJR (Apr 6, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Nope. Test if you start to feel symptons but otherwise carry on 👍. It's the next step, psychologically, to take and it is a big one.
		
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That's kind of what I thought and what I've decided to do. With it being so prevalent it would be testing frequently as coming into contact with infected folk is more and more likely...


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 6, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So as covid starts to rack up in the hospital so it begins again for ICU. Up from 2 (no longer infectious) to 5 new overnight admissions (all positive) so 7 in total. Getting very close to declaring a major incident for A&E as number visiting increasing daily are exceeding capacity and current staffing levels
		
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Is that 7 in total in ICU because of Covid or are any of those in there for a different primary cause but just happen to be positive?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2022)

ColchesterFC said:



			Is that 7 in total in ICU because of Covid or are any of those in there for a different primary cause but just happen to be positive?
		
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4 covid specific and the others with additional (primary) conditions


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 6, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			4 covid specific and the others with additional (primary) conditions
		
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Cheers Homer, so pretty close to the last lot of national stats that I saw that were 60:40 for those in due to Covid versus those in (mainly) for a different reason but positive for Covid.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 6, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			4 covid specific and the others with additional (primary) conditions
		
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Homer do you know if they have all had vaccines, wonder what there chances would of been if the answer was no. Probably never know 🤔


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Homer do you know if they have all had vaccines, wonder what there chances would of been if the answer was no. Probably never know 🤔
		
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It will be on their admission notes. Most to be fair have been jabbed but not always the case


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 6, 2022)

Had my carpal tunnel op scheduled for this Friday and I have tested positive today.
Had to cancel it.
Had no symptoms at all and only tested negative on Sunday.
Feeling very sorry for myself until I seen the news !


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## AmandaJR (Apr 7, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			Had my carpal tunnel op scheduled for this Friday and I have tested positive today.
Had to cancel it.
Had no symptoms at all and only tested negative on Sunday.
Feeling very sorry for myself until I seen the news !
		
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Frustrating for you - how long will you now have to wait for the op?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Frustrating for you - how long will you now have to wait for the op?
		
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They said late June.
But am hoping a cancellation will crop up again.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2022)

clubchamp98 said:



			They said late June.
But am hoping a cancellation will crop up again.
		
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Sorry to hear that pal. Stay patient, get well and I'm sure someone else will succumb to covid and a spot will crop up


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2022)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sorry to hear that pal. Stay patient, get well and I'm sure someone else will succumb to covid and a spot will crop up
		
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Thank you.
Yes was feeling a bit down after the test result.
But put the news on and seen what the people in Ukraine are going through made my problems trivial.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 7, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Frustrating for you - how long will you now have to wait for the op?
		
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Just got email with new app 25 May so not to bad.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 7, 2022)

Popped into local pharmacy...they had no idea when they'd get LFTs to sell - or indeed even _if _they would.  Then into our big Sainsburys - they were not going to be selling LFTs.  Informed I'd have to order on-line through Lloyds Pharmacy and they'd be sent to the Sainsburys for me to pick up.  Well at least I now know how to get hold of them.  Next up will check with the Boots in town.  Daughter now feeling better nearly three weeks after contracting; after same three weeks Mrs is still feeling rough and tires easily.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 8, 2022)

Felt rubbish all week. Tested Tuesday before golf and was clear so assumed it was a heavy cold / chest infection.

Wife tested positive last night, I tested positive this morning. I feel exactly the same as I did on Tuesday, so am assuming I've had covid all week. No golf now until at least next Thursday


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## Mudball (Apr 10, 2022)

So what’s the latest on Covid.  After many months of avoiding going to London, I got onto public transport and went to meet a client (because they insisted in returning to normal). One of my colleagues had just recovered from Covid last week.  So all sat in the same meeting. Got caught in a few April showers. Got home and had a cold next day. I thought that was because of the rain.. progressively had some cough last night chills.  No fever or loss of taste. Been drinking Lemsip once a day. 

LFT has been negative everytime. Today the Mrs asked me to go and get a PCR. I realise that PCR is no longer free in England!!  Why? Neither are LFTs? Why? These were first line of defence and now they are gone. Why do the Scots and Welsh have it free? What was the logic to remove these? 

More importantly why are LFTs no longer recording an infection?


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## chellie (Apr 10, 2022)

Mudball said:



			So what’s the latest on Covid.  After many months of avoiding going to London, I got onto public transport and went to meet a client (because they insisted in returning to normal). One of my colleagues had just recovered from Covid last week.  So all sat in the same meeting. Got caught in a few April showers. Got home and had a cold next day. I thought that was because of the rain.. progressively had some cough last night chills.  No fever or loss of taste. Been drinking Lemsip once a day.

LFT has been negative everytime. Today the Mrs asked me to go and get a PCR. I realise that PCR is no longer free in England!!  Why? Neither are LFTs? Why? These were first line of defence and now they are gone. Why do the Scots and Welsh have it free? What was the logic to remove these?

More importantly why are LFTs no longer recording an infection?
		
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So if you've negative LFT's surely you've only got a cold.


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## Mudball (Apr 10, 2022)

chellie said:



			So if you've negative LFT's surely you've only got a cold.
		
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Apparently it is not confirmatory these days.. PCR only way to go. Mrs seeing more such cases in her clinic … I think I have a cold, she thinks otherwise… either way, I am now locked away and looking fwd to peacefully watching the Masters Sunday


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## chellie (Apr 10, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Apparently it is not confirmatory these days.. PCR only way to go. Mrs seeing more such cases in her clinic … I think I have a cold, she thinks otherwise… either way, I am now locked away and looking fwd to peacefully watching the Masters Sunday
		
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Well, all care homes and domiciliary care are still using LFT's to see if they are positive....


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2022)

chellie said:



			Well, all care homes and domiciliary care are still using LFT's to see if they are positive....
		
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The policy departed from science some time ago. If an LFT is positive, you have Covid (high sensitivity), but if it is negative, less certain that you don't (moderate specificity).


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## drdel (Apr 10, 2022)

In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?
		
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Must admit I don’t.
Can’t see a thing without my glasses.
Can’t see a thing if I wear glasses and a mask.


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## Mudball (Apr 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The policy departed from science some time ago. If an LFT is positive, you have Covid (high sensitivity), but if it is negative, less certain that you don't (moderate specificity).
		
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Understandable from a statistical pov. Is there a new strain that is not being picked by LFT … alternatively (as per HiDs hypothesis)…. Her clinical staff was going negative for a few days while they had cold and other milder symptoms.. then bam, suddenly positive


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Understandable from a statistical pov. Is there a new strain that is not being picked by LFT … alternatively (as per HiDs hypothesis)…. Her clinical staff was going negative for a few days while they had cold and other milder symptoms.. then bam, suddenly positive
		
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There are new strains of omicron around, differences relatively subtle. Symptom profile appears to have changed a bit, more overlap with a cold now, so that doesn't help sorting them out.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?
		
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No stopped wearing as soon as the rules changed.  Don't really see the point anymore.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			No stopped wearing as soon as the rules changed.  Don't really see the point anymore.
		
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Reducing the chance of catching or passing on Covid.  Nothings changed in that respect.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?
		
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I was in a shop yesterday and a Woman who looked as if she was 80+ was in the queue behind me with no mask on, She moved up very close to me and I said " You shouldn't get too close, I may have Covid". Her reply was "I won't catch it as you're wearing a mask" 🙄


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?
		
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Depends. If I’m inside and a good number of others are wearing them then I will. If few or no people are wearing them then I won’t bother - absolutely pointless being the only person in an indoor setting wearing a face covering.


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## SatchFan (Apr 10, 2022)

I'm still wearing a mask and still social distancing. I shop at Sainsbury's first thing in the morning so there's never more than three customers in the store and should I venture out to other shops and they are busy the I will come back later. Big advantage being retired so I can pick and choose my moment. No doubt COVID will get me eventually but the longer I can hang on the better.


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Depends. If I’m inside and a good number of others are wearing them then I will. If few or no people are wearing them then I won’t bother - absolutely pointless being the only person in an indoor setting wearing a face covering.
		
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H'mm. There's a fairly solid argument that, commitment to 'natural immunity' aside, the above environment is precisely the one where masking up properly _does protect you_ allowing the non-maskers perform the 'natural immunity' policy. That said, if a more dangerous variant arrives, it could be an advantage to have 'natural antibodies' as a defence!


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## Backache (Apr 10, 2022)

Ethan said:



			The policy departed from science some time ago. If an LFT is positive, you have Covid (high sensitivity), but if it is negative, less certain that you don't (moderate specificity).
		
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Think you have your sensitivity and specificity the wrong way round.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2022)

Yes we are still wearing when in shops or if pavement is busy, irrespective of what others are doing.  Do have a bit of an issue at the club as mask wearing seems to have been completely abandoned in the clubhouse for when moving around and in general/public areas…would suggest that golfers know best/better.


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2022)

Backache said:



			Think you have your sensitivity and specificity the wrong way round.

Click to expand...

No, I don't. 

Sensitivity is the probability that a positive test will occur in someone that has the disease. That is very high for LFTs, such that if you test positive, you really don't need a PCR.

Specificity is the probability that a negative test will occur in someone that does not. That is lower. Sensitivity and specificity are unaffected by prevalence. 

The real problem, that some true cases get negative tests is captured better in the negative predictive value, which is prevalence-related, so at times of high prevalence, can be an issue.


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## Slime (Apr 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?
		
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I still wear in my local Sainsbury's, about 75% don't.


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## Billysboots (Apr 10, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm. There's a fairly solid argument that, commitment to 'natural immunity' aside, the above environment is precisely the one where masking up properly _does protect you_ allowing the non-maskers perform the 'natural immunity' policy. That said, if a more dangerous variant arrives, it could be an advantage to have 'natural antibodies' as a defence!
		
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Having had covid twice, and being triple jabbed, my immediate concern is not really myself, but other people. Which is why I have adopted the stance to mask wearing that I have. If the vast majority can’t be bothered, me not wearing one won’t really make a jot of difference.


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes we are still wearing when in shops or if pavement is busy, irrespective of what others are doing.  Do have a bit of an issue at the club as mask wearing seems to have been completely abandoned in the clubhouse for when moving around and in general/public areas…*would suggest that golfers know best/better*.
		
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Or just can't be arsed/have forgotten!


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			Having had covid twice, and being triple jabbed, my immediate concern is not really myself, but other people. Which is why I have adopted the stance to mask wearing that I have. If the vast majority can’t be bothered, me not wearing one won’t really make a jot of difference.
		
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Nice gesture that seems somewhat wasted/ineffective!


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## D-S (Apr 10, 2022)

I still wear a mask in shops but as two people close to me caught COVID whilst wearing masks despite only being in brief contact with others in environments where everyone was wearing a mask, more and more I wonder why I bother.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?
		
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I've gone from wearing one in most situations to not now. I've spent the last few days in Liverpool, been in bars, restaurants, shops, train, all sorts of situations. Barely a mask seen. Back in a supermarket yesterday where I live, 1 maybe 2 mask wearers.

Mask wearing seems to be over and I guess I don't see the point of being last man standing wearing one.

 I'm not sure how much the above stands up to scrutiny but it is how things have drifted.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 10, 2022)

Re masks am sure all countries have the same info re wearing them Or not.  In Majorca if you go inside a shop or restaurant you have to wear one and folk do. Inc tourists. Yet in the UK it’s up to the individual. So what makes one country say wear them and another says it’s up to you. 🤔


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Re masks am sure all countries have the same info re wearing them Or not.  In Majorca if you go inside a shop or restaurant you have to wear one and folk do. Inc tourists. Yet in the UK it’s up to the individual. So what makes one country say wear them and another says it’s up to you. 🤔
		
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They have all sorts of different laws, even though they have the same info about the things those laws are related to!
EG. Germany has different laws to UK about when and how you can wash your car.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 10, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Re masks am sure all countries have the same info re wearing them Or not.  In Majorca if you go inside a shop or restaurant you have to wear one and folk do. Inc tourists. Yet in the UK it’s up to the individual. So what makes one country say wear them and another says it’s up to you. 🤔
		
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Why are China having severe lock downs and other countries ignoring the numbers? Actually the answer may not be covid related 😆.

Anyway, different opinions in how to deal with the situation, particularly as times move on. If there is something we have learned in a number of situations in recent years, there are loads of experts and they frequently disagree 🤔. That's confusing.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 10, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Reducing the chance of catching or passing on Covid.  Nothings changed in that respect.
		
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It's a personal choice now. So I'm choosing no, like most others.


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## PNWokingham (Apr 10, 2022)

drdel said:



			In a busy supermarket yesterday, I and a few others wearing masks  but the vast majority not bothered. Its still causing infestations: if slowly declining. How about the rest of you, wearing or not ?
		
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No


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why are China having severe lock downs and other countries ignoring the numbers? Actually the answer may not be covid related 😆.
...
		
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May not be Covid related. But China have been consistent about the way they've handled Covid - Hong Kong excluded. Whether that's best or not, only time will tell.


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## Backache (Apr 11, 2022)

Ethan said:



			No, I don't.

Sensitivity is the probability that a positive test will occur in someone that has the disease. That is very high for LFTs, such that if you test positive, you really don't need a PCR.

Specificity is the probability that a negative test will occur in someone that does not. That is lower. Sensitivity and specificity are unaffected by prevalence.

The real problem, that some true cases get negative tests is captured better in the negative predictive value, which is prevalence-related, so at times of high prevalence, can be an issue.
		
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Yes sensitivity is the probability that a test will be positive in someone who has the disease but this does not mean that if the test is positive it is likely they have the disease.
If I invented a COVID test that was positive for everyone it would have 100% sensitivity but would be completely useless for saying if you have the disease or not.
Conversely if a test was 100% specific and the test was positive they would definitely have the disease.


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## AmandaJR (Apr 11, 2022)

I'm still wearing a mask where I'm requested to do so - that's pretty much every supermarket. Maybe in time they'll remove the signs but until then...


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## Tashyboy (Apr 11, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why are China having severe lock downs and other countries ignoring the numbers? Actually the answer may not be covid related 😆.

Anyway, different opinions in how to deal with the situation, particularly as times move on. *If there is something we have learned in a number of situations in recent years, there are loads of experts and they frequently disagree 🤔. That's confusing.[*/QUOTE]
And that’s just on the forum 😁
		
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## Ethan (Apr 11, 2022)

Backache said:



			Yes sensitivity is the probability that a test will be positive in someone who has the disease but this does not mean that if the test is positive it is likely they have the disease.
If I invented a COVID test that was positive for everyone it would have 100% sensitivity but would be completely useless for saying if you have the disease or not.
Conversely if a test was 100% specific and the test was positive they would definitely have the disease.
		
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A highly sensitive test DOES mean that a positive test means that someone has the disease, with a certainty equal to the sensitivity. That is why it is also known as the true positive rate. A positive test in a test with sensitivity of 99% is 99% likely to be a true case. There is a 1% chance it is a false negative, i.e a true case that tests negative. High sensitivity says little about whether someone who tests negative is a case or not.  

I do not know of any test that is 100% sensitive and specific. There is invariably a trade-off between the two, because tests are usually based on either a cut-off or a lower limit of lab quantification which still leaves room for uncertainty sometimes based on whether identifying true cases, but accepting false negatives or identifying true negatives but accepting false positives is the strategic priority.


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## Foxholer (Apr 11, 2022)

Backache said:



			Yes sensitivity is the probability that a test will be positive in someone who has the disease but this does not mean that if the test is positive it is likely they have the disease.
If I invented a COVID test that was positive for everyone it would have 100% sensitivity but would be completely useless for saying if you have the disease or not.
Conversely if a test was 100% specific and the test was positive they would definitely have the disease.
		
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FWIW....
https://ebn.bmj.com/content/23/1/2


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## DRW (Apr 11, 2022)

chellie said:



			So if you've negative LFT's surely you've only got a cold.
		
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Sadly not. Dont trust the LFT.

To summarise :-

If positive...then you have covid(almost 100% certain)

If negative and if you have any viral symptoms...you should not trust the test result, especially if seeing a vulnerable person.

(IIRC when I looked at some studies last year, you are looking at anywhere from 45% to max 80% accurate results from the negative test result, so if everyone was positive who was testing, it would show positive 45% to 80% of the tests. .ie. pretty low accuracy results. This is due to the test is made to pick up high viral load people[thought to be potentially the higher transmitters of virus] and things like user error etc)

Hope that helps to clarify and makes sense.


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## Backache (Apr 11, 2022)

Ethan said:



			A highly sensitive test DOES mean that a positive test means that someone has the disease, with a certainty equal to the sensitivity. That is why it is also known as the true positive rate. A positive test in a test with sensitivity of 99% is 99% likely to be a true case. There is a 1% chance it is a false negative, i.e a true case that tests negative. High sensitivity says little about whether someone who tests negative is a case or not.
		
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You are  mixing up positive predictive value and sensitivity.
See the article in the link above.

If you take 100 people  50 with covid and 50 without and  test them with a method that says they all have covid you will have positively identified everyone with Covid so you have correctly identified everyone with the disease. ie the sensitivity is 100%


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## Backache (Apr 11, 2022)

This link is maybe better than the one foxholer posted
Sensitivity and specificity explained: A Cochrane UK Trainees blog | Cochrane UK


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## Ethan (Apr 11, 2022)

Backache said:



			You are  mixing up positive predictive value and sensitivity.
See the article in the link above.

If you take 100 people  50 with covid and 50 without and  test them with a method that says they all have covid you will have positively identified everyone with Covid so you have correctly identified everyone with the disease. ie the sensitivity is 100%
		
Click to expand...


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## Backache (Apr 11, 2022)

Were you replying to me, what were you saying?


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## Ethan (Apr 11, 2022)

Backache said:




Were you replying to me, what were you saying?
		
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Oh, musta pressed the wrong button.

Let's wrap this up. With Covid LFTs, in my view, sensitivity and specificity are such that it is reasonable to accept a positive LFT as adequate confirmation of infection, as it approximates well enough to PPV.

You are right on the 50/50 prevalence, of course. If the true prevalence is 50%, though, hardly worth bothering testing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2022)

Backache said:



			You are  mixing up positive predictive value and sensitivity.
See the article in the link above.

If you take 100 people  50 with covid and 50 without and  test them with a method that says they all have covid you will have positively identified everyone with Covid so you have correctly identified everyone with the disease. ie the sensitivity is 100%
		
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On this…are different makes of LFT of different sensitivity?  When I was testing couple of weeks back I had a strong +ve one day with one brand and the next day with a different brand i was only very faintly +ve.


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## Ethan (Apr 11, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On this…are different makes of LFT of different sensitivity?  When I was testing couple of weeks back I had a strong +ve one day with one brand and the next day with a different brand i was only very faintly +ve.
		
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Probably. Repeat testing also can include variable technique and sampling variability.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Probably. Repeat testing also can include variable technique and sampling variability.
		
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Hmmm…so could possibly have tested -ve sooner than I did had I used one brand rather than another…that feels a bit unsatisfactory either way...ah well…maybe as we don’t have to test unless symptomatic I won’t bother fretting about it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			It's a personal choice now. So I'm choosing no, like most others.
		
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The World's your Oyster.

Although you suggested that you didn't understand why people wore them.


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## theoneandonly (Apr 11, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			The World's your Oyster.

Although you suggested that you didn't understand why people wore them.
		
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No I didn't.


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## Backache (Apr 12, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On this…are different makes of LFT of different sensitivity?  When I was testing couple of weeks back I had a strong +ve one day with one brand and the next day with a different brand i was only very faintly +ve.
		
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Not sure what the differences are, my memory is that they were around 70% sensitive when compared with PCR but around 99.9% specific on Porton Down testing whether other brands have tested differently don't know but I imagine procurement would ensure that they are all reasonable. They are not really meant to be quantative so the result is positive or not, a slightly fainter line is still positive.


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## Robster59 (Apr 12, 2022)

I still wear the mask, but in Scotland most people still do. When I was in England last week, virtually nobody did.  I think people wearing or not wearing is also heavily influenced by peer pressure, and what you see other people doing. It does feel odd to be wearing a mask in a shop where nobody else is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2022)

Backache said:



			Not sure what the differences are, my memory is that they were around 70% sensitive when compared with PCR but around 99.9% specific on Porton Down testing whether other brands have tested differently don't know but I imagine procurement would ensure that they are all reasonable. They are not really meant to be quantative so the result is positive or not, a slightly fainter line is still positive.
		
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indeed how I interpret even a faint test show.  Plus my understanding has always been that LFTs only really provide an indication of the prevalence of the virus in any tested population given a statistically significant sample size.  A test taking by an individual gives an indication but certainly nothing like 100% certainty one way or the other - so in my understanding it has always been the case that rather too much faith has been placed on an LFT to provide a definitive individual infection status.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 12, 2022)

I tested positive last Friday. My understanding was I had to isolate then have 2 negative tests on Days 5 and 6 before venturing back out. However looking at gov.uk, that seems to no longer be the case? Is that right? Do I just start going about life as normal as soon as I don't have symptoms? 

I'm in England btw.


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## Backache (Apr 12, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			indeed how I interpret even a faint test show.  Plus my understanding has always been that LFTs only really provide an indication of the prevalence of the virus in any tested population given a statistically significant sample size.  A test taking by an individual gives an indication but certainly nothing like 100% certainty one way or the other - so in my understanding it has always been the case that rather too much faith has been placed on an LFT to provide a definitive individual infection status.
		
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Absolutely, if you have not had covid the chances of false positives if tests are done properly are probably very low indeed The positive rate on PCR  the ONS survey fell to 0.02% after the first wave and as this must be the sum of the false positives and true positives and there was certainly some covid, false positives are probably exceptionally low. However judging whether or not you are likely to be infectious from a single swab with a non quantative test at a single point of time in the infection is always going to involve a degree of guesswork.


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## Backache (Apr 12, 2022)

rudebhoy said:



			I tested positive last Friday. My understanding was I had to isolate then have 2 negative tests on Days 5 and 6 before venturing back out. However looking at gov.uk, that seems to no longer be the case? Is that right? Do I just start going about life as normal as soon as I don't have symptoms?

I'm in England btw.
		
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There are rules and there is what is sensible, you are clearly likely to be a potential source of infection to others, personally I would take lateral flow tests and would wear a mask initially if I could not take them.


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## rudebhoy (Apr 12, 2022)

Backache said:



			There are rules and there is what is sensible, you are clearly likely to be a potential source of infection to others, personally I would take lateral flow tests and would wear a mask initially if I could not take them.
		
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I get what you are saying. Reading the current guidelines, I could go out and about quite happily the day after a positive test which is just nuts. 

I will have isolated for 5 days by tomorrow. I don’t have any symptoms now. I’ll do a test anyway tomorrow and if it’s clear, I’ll go back to golf on Thursday.


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## Foxholer (Apr 12, 2022)

rudebhoy said:



			I get what you are saying. Reading the current guidelines, I could go out and about quite happily the day after a positive test which is just nuts.

I will have isolated for 5 days by tomorrow. I don’t have any symptoms now. I’ll do a test anyway tomorrow and if it’s clear, I’ll go back to golf on Thursday.
		
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Indeed, that seems nuts to me too - but perhaps not to some!
The guidance (here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/people-...o-if-you-have-a-positive-covid-19-test-result) still states 'try to stay at home and avoid contact with other people for 5 days after the day you took your test' and to be careful for a further 5 days. Whether the further LFT shortens that period, I'm not certain, so would mask-up and take particular care around vulnerable folk for that period.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			No stopped wearing as soon as the rules changed.  Don't really see the point anymore.
		
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SocketRocket said:



			The World's your Oyster.

Although you suggested that you didn't understand why people wore them.
		
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theoneandonly said:



			No I didn't.
		
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 🙄


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## rudebhoy (Apr 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, that seems nuts to me too - but perhaps not to some!
The guidance (here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/people-...o-if-you-have-a-positive-covid-19-test-result) still states 'try to stay at home and avoid contact with other people for 5 days after the day you took your test' and to be careful for a further 5 days. Whether the further LFT shortens that period, I'm not certain, so would mask-up and take particular care around vulnerable folk for that period.
		
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If the test is negative, I'll be playing Thursday, but will avoid the clubhouse and any other indoor settings for the next week or so.


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## Dando (Apr 12, 2022)

Tested positive on Sunday and I’m really aching and tired.

Only ventured out to walk the dog - he’s under orders to take it easy as he might have elbow displacement so it’s just a quick stroll for a wee and a poo…sometimes the dog goes as well 🤣


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, that seems nuts to me too - but perhaps not to some!
The guidance (here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/people-...o-if-you-have-a-positive-covid-19-test-result) still states 'try to stay at home and avoid contact with other people for 5 days after the day you took your test' and to be careful for a further 5 days. Whether the further LFT shortens that period, I'm not certain, so would mask-up and take particular care around vulnerable folk for that period.
		
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Yep!


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## theoneandonly (Apr 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			🙄
		
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I understand but don't see the point. Is that a little easier or shall I write in crayon in nice big letters.


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## Foxholer (Apr 12, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Yep!
		
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K?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			I understand but don't see the point. Is that a little easier or shall I write in crayon in nice big letters.
		
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Don't knock yourself out about it, just make your mind up, I imagine big letter crayons are the norm anyhow 👍


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 12, 2022)

Numbers in work still rising and deaths starting to creep up as well. Not seeing any sort of a peak yet. Staff absence increased this week compared to last as well


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## D-S (Apr 12, 2022)

Good to see the hospital admissions seeming to have peaked.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513896921076748289


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2022)

D-S said:



			Good to see the hospital admissions seeming to have peaked.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513896921076748289

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Not at Homers place.


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## D-S (Apr 12, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Not at Homers place.
		
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Obviously not, so admissions must be dropping faster elesewhere.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			K? 

Click to expand...

It's meant to say I agree with your  post😀.
Forgive me, emojis and brevity etc are not my strong point . Generation thing. I much prefer English. 😀
(Hope that last one is correct!)


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2022)

Twins have it now, tested them last night when they were snotty and coughing (had been completely fine all day so i said to mrs lets test them)

straight up positive poor things

bored of covid now.. mainly because since march we have had it rip through the house but not got everyone all at once its spread slowly ..

going to be around forever


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## Marshy77 (Apr 16, 2022)

Interesting reading this thread. 

I've avoided Covid but tested positive the other day. Felt a bit off it, working from home so was keeping myself to myself at home but then thought I best do a test as I was going to football and meeting friends tomorrow. Supposed to have a family holiday from Mon, absolutely gutted! 

I now feel fine, bit of a tickly cough but nothing really else but still positive. Told friends we won't be there and the mixed views surprised me really. The younger friends were of the opinion that you don't need to isolate and should still come out and the older lot were mixed - should/shouldn't and also dependent on if they've had it already. 

All the way through the pandemic we have gone by the rules, then you see the government not abiding by their own rules and it kind of makes you think!

With the guidance as they are now it seems like they've almost left it to your own judgement/morals and it feels awkward. 

My own thoughts are to protect my family. 1 teen is jabbed the eldest is isn't.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 16, 2022)

All of us in the house have now tested positive. A couple of days between each person testing positive 🤷‍♂️. I'm pleased to say that the cycle of sweats, chills, sweats, chills have now stopped, the aches have reduced and I'm very much on the mend. I'm one of the many who can describe the symptoms as heavy cold like. Unpleasant, but thankfully no more than that.

For anyone who catches it, I recommend a bit of Father Brown on Alibi 😁. Gentle viewing, not taxing on the brain, you can fall asleep and not miss anything. They also seem to have an endless number of episodes to fill your time.


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## Billysboots (Apr 16, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			For anyone who catches it, I recommend a bit of Father Brown on Alibi 😁. Gentle viewing, not taxing on the brain, you can fall asleep and not miss anything.
		
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Alternatively, you could just try watching Man United. They often send me to sleep these days and when I wake I’ve rarely missed any action.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 16, 2022)

Lord Tyrion said:



			All of us in the house have now tested positive. A couple of days between each person testing positive 🤷‍♂️. I'm pleased to say that the cycle of sweats, chills, sweats, chills have now stopped, the aches have reduced and I'm very much on the mend. I'm one of the many who can describe the symptoms as heavy cold like. Unpleasant, but thankfully no more than that.

For anyone who catches it, I recommend a bit of Father Brown on Alibi 😁. Gentle viewing, not taxing on the brain, you can fall asleep and not miss anything. They also seem to have an endless number of episodes to fill your time.
		
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Not sure I'd go with Father Brown as a pick up but that's my own preference. Glad you are feeling better. We had 13 back in the club after they came back on Thursday and I tried to keep a wide berth. One didn't even get to go after testing positive two days before flying. I am sure the guys coming back will be fine but having not had it and given where I work I felt prudent to be cautious


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## Ethan (Apr 19, 2022)

Paper on immune response from Omicron.

This is a pre-print, i.e. not peer-reviewed, but TL;DR version - Omicron doesn't give very good immunity.


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## WGCRider (Apr 25, 2022)

I've done a bit of travelling in the last month and with no basis in science whatsoever I thought I'd share some covid observations. I should also say I had Covid about a month ago so would not have passed a PCR test - lateral flow was the way to go!

I'd start by saying that near everywhere people wore a mask on the plane and in the airport. The only real exception is Heathrow arrivals where most people probably don't. It actually feels a bit weird having worn a mask for the past few hours standing is a passport queue or at a luggage belt next to people without a mask. There was no "social distancing" anywhere in the world.

1) Flew to Paris at the end of March. Home test. Didn't need the test, rules were changed a few days before. Did check my NHS vax pass on arrival - at Heathrow departures they did not care. Reasonable amount of mask wearing in public. Many worn out covid signs.
2) Flew to Atlanta and then drove to Georgia at the start of April. Used the test I got from France, changed the date and put an extra little box in the QR code so it wouldn't work. No issues with travel - the fact that I had a bit of paper was fine nobody checked it. In the US south there are no/few signs that there even has been a pandemic. Outside the airport don't think I saw more than 10 masks. My temperature was checked once. This was like 2019.
3) Flew direct from Atlanta to Johannesburg. No tests needed just vax pass. Pass was checked while in the passport queue at arrivals. Near universally masks are worn indoors by EVERYONE. Restaurants were an exception where maybe half wore a mask walking to their table. Most shops had "security" at the entrance spraying sanitiser on your hands. There is sanitiser everywhere!! If there is a keypad - there is sanitiser next to it. Cashiers in supermarkets sanitise before scanning your groceries. Temperature was checked on average every second day by someone (once even at a rugby match - 50% stadium capacity in case you are wondering)
4) Last week went to Amsterdam. Nothing was checked. Mask wearing etc. about the same a France. Few covid warning signs.

So basically in in 3 European countries plus the USA - the pandemic is over and may as well not have happened.
In one African country people really stick to the mask rules and have an obsession with watered down hand sanitiser.

My only useful insight for everyone is don't bother with travel covid tests. It's a scam, nobody checks and they are easy to fake anyway.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 25, 2022)

WGCRider said:



			I've done a bit of travelling in the last month and with no basis in science whatsoever I thought I'd share some covid observations. I should also say I had Covid about a month ago so would not have passed a PCR test - lateral flow was the way to go!

I'd start by saying that near everywhere people wore a mask on the plane and in the airport. The only real exception is Heathrow arrivals where most people probably don't. It actually feels a bit weird having worn a mask for the past few hours standing is a passport queue or at a luggage belt next to people without a mask. There was no "social distancing" anywhere in the world.

1) Flew to Paris at the end of March. Home test. Didn't need the test, rules were changed a few days before. Did check my NHS vax pass on arrival - at Heathrow departures they did not care. Reasonable amount of mask wearing in public. Many worn out covid signs.
2) Flew to Atlanta and then drove to Georgia at the start of April. Used the test I got from France, changed the date and put an extra little box in the QR code so it wouldn't work. No issues with travel - the fact that I had a bit of paper was fine nobody checked it. In the US south there are no/few signs that there even has been a pandemic. Outside the airport don't think I saw more than 10 masks. My temperature was checked once. This was like 2019.
3) Flew direct from Atlanta to Johannesburg. No tests needed just vax pass. Pass was checked while in the passport queue at arrivals. Near universally masks are worn indoors by EVERYONE. Restaurants were an exception where maybe half wore a mask walking to their table. Most shops had "security" at the entrance spraying sanitiser on your hands. There is sanitiser everywhere!! If there is a keypad - there is sanitiser next to it. Cashiers in supermarkets sanitise before scanning your groceries. Temperature was checked on average every second day by someone (once even at a rugby match - 50% stadium capacity in case you are wondering)
4) Last week went to Amsterdam. Nothing was checked. Mask wearing etc. about the same a France. Few covid warning signs.

So basically in in 3 European countries plus the USA - the pandemic is over and may as well not have happened.
In one African country people really stick to the mask rules and have an obsession with watered down hand sanitiser.

My only useful insight for everyone is don't bother with travel covid tests. It's a scam, nobody checks and they are easy to fake anyway.
		
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I think that looking at the responses on this topic over the last couple of weeks. Folk are either losing interest or they think the pandemic is now over. The later I think, well it’s definitely not over. I feel the sleeping monster is waiting to be poked with a big stick. At the moment though it’s carry on as you are.
Re travels.
Week last Saturday I returned from Majorca. Shops and restaurants everyone wore them. Airports the same, but on the plane it is announced you do not have to wear a face mask. Most British didn’t. We did.
February, I was in Lanzarote. Exactly the same as being in Majorca re restraunt, shops airports and planes.
Nov/December I was in Gdańsk. Exactly the same everyone wore masks and yet they had a spike in COVID cases just after we left.
Off to Majorca next month, I expect exactly the same re mask wearing.Shops and restraunts will continue to wear them. If travellers have the option. They will not wear them.
What has changed over the last 5 months is having to show a COVID vaccine passport. My strong advice is to make sure you have one on your phone at the very minimum. We have always had one to show, but it has been hit and miss re whether it has been checked. When we arrived in Gdańsk/ Poland. They sent a guy back to the UK because he had not had his vaccinations.He was Polish.
If you are travelling abroad, double check that you have all relevant travel documents.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			I think that looking at the responses on this topic over the last couple of weeks. Folk are either losing interest or they think the pandemic is now over. The later I think, well it’s definitely not over. I feel the sleeping monster is waiting to be poked with a big stick. At the moment though it’s carry on as you are.
Re travels.
Week last Saturday I returned from Majorca. Shops and restaurants everyone wore them. Airports the same, but on the plane it is announced you do not have to wear a face mask. Most British didn’t. We did.
February, I was in Lanzarote. Exactly the same as being in Majorca re restraunt, shops airports and planes.
Nov/December I was in Gdańsk. Exactly the same everyone wore masks and yet they had a spike in COVID cases just after we left.
Off to Majorca next month, I expect exactly the same re mask wearing.Shops and restraunts will continue to wear them. If travellers have the option. They will not wear them.
What has changed over the last 5 months is having to show a COVID vaccine passport. My strong advice is to make sure you have one on your phone at the very minimum. We have always had one to show, but it has been hit and miss re whether it has been checked. When we arrived in Gdańsk/ Poland. They sent a guy back to the UK because he had not had his vaccinations.He was Polish.
If you are travelling abroad, double check that you have all relevant travel documents.
		
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Way it seems now is people want to enjoy what they can whilst they can

Sure it could spiral out of control but it did regardless of what measures it seems 

Can't blame them after to years of hell


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 25, 2022)

pauljames87 said:



			Way it seems now is people want to enjoy what they can whilst they can

Sure it could spiral out of control but it did regardless of what measures it seems

Can't blame them after to years of hell
		
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Definitely think its business as usual looking at those eating and drinking in Bracknell this evening and out shopping. Very little mask take up anywhere and barely anyone at Reading station (including GWR staff) and on the trains are bothering. I don't blame people as they've had a tough two years and the bad news in the world with Ukraine, rising prices and bills and they want a bit of positivity and to see friends and get back to normal

For what its worth we are covid free in ICU and cases in the trust are starting to go down. We have been switched to weekly PCR testing to a voluntary twice weekly lateral flow as staff absences are still an issue. It definitely hasn't gone away but hopefully the summer will help as we saw last year but we all know there are chances come the Autumn of new variants and another wave


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## D-S (Apr 25, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1518609705668685824If nothing else, hospital admissions are going down after a nasty period. Seems like this thing is a never ending roller coaster of doom and hope no matter what restrictions are in place or lifting of them happens.


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## Marshy77 (Apr 25, 2022)

Anyway


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 25, 2022)

Thread tidied up and posts removed


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## Leftitshort (Apr 25, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			Ah yes good old tashboy, will ignore travel guidance but lambast others who do the same.
		
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 ‘Self awareness’ 👍


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## Leftitshort (Apr 25, 2022)

^^^whoops. Sorry. Was in my replies & I can’t get rid of it 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## GreiginFife (Apr 25, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			I think that looking at the responses on this topic over the last couple of weeks. Folk are either losing interest or they think the pandemic is now over. The later I think, well it’s definitely not over. I feel the sleeping monster is waiting to be poked with a big stick. At the moment though it’s carry on as you are.
Re travels.
Week last Saturday I returned from Majorca. Shops and restaurants everyone wore them. Airports the same, but on the plane it is announced you do not have to wear a face mask. Most British didn’t. We did.
February, I was in Lanzarote. Exactly the same as being in Majorca re restraunt, shops airports and planes.
Nov/December I was in Gdańsk. Exactly the same everyone wore masks and yet they had a spike in COVID cases just after we left.
Off to Majorca next month, I expect exactly the same re mask wearing.Shops and restraunts will continue to wear them. If travellers have the option. They will not wear them.
What has changed over the last 5 months is having to show a COVID vaccine passport. My strong advice is to make sure you have one on your phone at the very minimum. We have always had one to show, but it has been hit and miss re whether it has been checked. When we arrived in Gdańsk/ Poland. They sent a guy back to the UK because he had not had his vaccinations.He was Polish.
*If you are travelling abroad, double check that you have all relevant travel documents*.
		
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Of course, there's always the option of not travelling at all.


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			I think that looking at the responses on this topic over the last couple of weeks. Folk are either losing interest or they think the pandemic is now over. The later I think, well it’s definitely not over. I feel the sleeping monster is waiting to be poked with a big stick. At the moment though it’s carry on as you are.
Re travels.
Week last Saturday I returned from Majorca. Shops and restaurants everyone wore them. Airports the same, but on the plane it is announced you do not have to wear a face mask. Most British didn’t. We did.
February, I was in Lanzarote. Exactly the same as being in Majorca re restraunt, shops airports and planes.
Nov/December I was in Gdańsk. Exactly the same everyone wore masks and yet they had a spike in COVID cases just after we left.
Off to Majorca next month, I expect exactly the same re mask wearing.Shops and restraunts will continue to wear them. If travellers have the option. They will not wear them.
What has changed over the last 5 months is having to show a COVID vaccine passport. My strong advice is to make sure you have one on your phone at the very minimum. We have always had one to show, but it has been hit and miss re whether it has been checked. When we arrived in Gdańsk/ Poland. They sent a guy back to the UK because he had not had his vaccinations.He was Polish.
If you are travelling abroad, double check that you have all relevant travel documents.
		
Click to expand...

Well said.

When you visit Majorca next month you will see a change ref masks. Now, as of last week, only required when on public transport, in a farmacia, health centres & hospitals.

When I was in the supermarket on Friday, all bar 2 people were still wearing masks. Yesterday only the till staff were wearing masks. Some businesses have made it a requirement but that won’t last long - it’s causing angst and customers are moving on to the next bar/restaurant.


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## Swango1980 (May 10, 2022)

Well, it has been just over 2 years, and I've finally got Covid. Must have picked it up on a golf trip last week, 5 of the 16 that were on it came back with positive tests this weekend. Thankfully, there have been barely any symptoms at all for myself. A slight sore throat in the mornings, and a few night chills on Sunday night.


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## Slime (May 28, 2022)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, it has been just over 2 years, and I've finally got Covid. Must have picked it up on a golf trip last week, 5 of the 16 that were on it came back with positive tests this weekend. Thankfully, there have been barely any symptoms at all for myself. A slight sore throat in the mornings, and a few night chills on Sunday night.
		
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Oh, the irony!
It has been just over two years, and I've finally got Covid.
Picked it up on last week's golf trip to Spain ......................... all four of us have tested +ve today.
No real symptoms other than a slightly runny nose.
Bummer!


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## Ethan (May 28, 2022)

Interesting presentation at a medical conference recently that in a series of cases of acute myocardial infarction (heart attack), the proportion that had no detectable obstruction of their coronary arteries was much higher than usual in people who previously had Covid infection. Mortality rates were also higher than usual. 

I have banged on about this here before, that Covid causes inflammatory effects outside the lungs that can cause later damage. In this case it is considered to be possibly due to direct effects of the virus on the heart and thrombi and micro-thrombi. 

Shame Warne died at 52 or thereabouts of a myocardial infarction. He had bad Covid a few months before. I think it is very possible the two events are connected.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Interesting presentation at a medical conference recently that in a series of cases of acute myocardial infarction (heart attack), the proportion that had no detectable obstruction of their coronary arteries was much higher than usual in people who previously had Covid infection. Mortality rates were also higher than usual.

I have banged on about this here before, that Covid causes inflammatory effects outside the lungs that can cause later damage. In this case it is considered to be possibly due to direct effects of the virus on the heart and thrombi and micro-thrombi.

Shame Warne died at 52 or thereabouts of a myocardial infarction. He had bad Covid a few months before. I think it is very possible the two events are connected.
		
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Great 🙁


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## Ethan (Jun 9, 2022)

Study of Scottish Covid survivors published in Nature Medicine, showing that at lest 1 in 8 of hospitalised patients developed myocarditis as a complication. Interestingly, they found that the severity of the Covid infection was related to the risk of myocarditis (and, presumably, other organ damage). 

Link


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2022)

Slime said:



			Oh, the irony!
It has been just over two years, and I've finally got Covid.
Picked it up on last week's golf trip to Spain ......................... all four of us have tested +ve today.
No real symptoms other than a slightly runny nose.
Bummer!
		
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I had nine consecutive days of +ve tests before I got a -ve test result!
The irony is that I only felt unwell for about 18 hours!


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## Hobbit (Jun 9, 2022)

Slime said:



			Oh, the irony!
It has been just over two years, and I've finally got Covid.
Picked it up on last week's golf trip to Spain ......................... all four of us have tested +ve today.
No real symptoms other than a slightly runny nose.
Bummer!
		
Click to expand...

Its you that brought it here was it!

5 members diagnosed with it last night/today, and the club is now closed for a week.

The son of a member flew over, from Gatwick, 8 days ago, whilst not feeling well. Gave it to his dad who has spread it around the club.


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## Slime (Jun 9, 2022)

Hobbit said:



			Its you that brought it here was it!

5 members diagnosed with it last night/today, and the club is now closed for a week.

The sun of a member flew over, from Gatwick, 8 days ago, whilst not feeling well. Gave it to his dad who has spread it around the club.
		
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No. I didn't take it to Spain, I merely brought it back! 
I blame the Spanish. 
However, on the BA flight back to Gatwick, there was an announcement over the PA reminding passengers that we were on* 'a mask free flight'.*
Absolutely staggering.


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## Slab (Jun 29, 2022)

Roll on this Friday when we don't have to wear masks outdoors anymore


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## Jimaroid (Jun 29, 2022)

I think I mentioned it before but following my covid booster I started getting pain in my upper arm and shoulder. It wasn’t injection site pain, it was different and difficult to describe. I tried to ignore it for 3 or 4 months as this was seemingly the period of time advised to see how things develop. It never improved.

I’ve lost a lot of mobility in the shoulder, it’s wrecked my golf swing amongst other things. I can’t sleep on it, and when moving to certain positions it is shockingly painful and causes my lower arm to go numb for a minute or two. I’ve just been mostly ignoring it as best I can even though it’s causing extreme annoyance but last week my patience ran out.

Privately I went to see a physiotherapist. Went through all the consultancy and examination and at the end she says, “You’re the 8th over 40’s male I’ve seen in the last two months with identical complaint and symptoms. It’s an inflamed shoulder capsule or frozen shoulder. We don’t know and don’t have a lot of research on what’s caused it but there does seem to be a pattern I’m seeing of people like you coming in after their booster. Treatment might not work, ordinarily frozen shoulders can sometimes take two or three years to treat. Are you willing to give it a go?”

So here I am, stretching 3 times a day and feeling really depressed about it. That combined with the hernia and repair I had last year has wrecked a number of physical activities and I’ve lost a lot of my upper body strength and fitness. Climbing is completely wrecked and no-go. Golf is a miserable experience both in terms of pain and scoring. Thankfully the cycling and hillwalking is still good but I’m struggling with motivation.

Thought it was worth sharing in case anyone else is having or had similar issues.


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## Ethan (Jun 29, 2022)

Jimaroid said:



			I think I mentioned it before but following my covid booster I started getting pain in my upper arm and shoulder. It wasn’t injection site pain, it was different and difficult to describe. I tried to ignore it for 3 or 4 months as this was seemingly the period of time advised to see how things develop. It never improved.

I’ve lost a lot of mobility in the shoulder, it’s wrecked my golf swing amongst other things. I can’t sleep on it, and when moving to certain positions it is shockingly painful and causes my lower arm to go numb for a minute or two. I’ve just been mostly ignoring it as best I can even though it’s causing extreme annoyance but last week my patience ran out.

Privately I went to see a physiotherapist. Went through all the consultancy and examination and at the end she says, “You’re the 8th over 40’s male I’ve seen in the last two months with identical complaint and symptoms. It’s an inflamed shoulder capsule or frozen shoulder. We don’t know and don’t have a lot of research on what’s caused it but there does seem to be a pattern I’m seeing of people like you coming in after their booster. Treatment might not work, ordinarily frozen shoulders can sometimes take two or three years to treat. Are you willing to give it a go?”

So here I am, stretching 3 times a day and feeling really depressed about it. That combined with the hernia and repair I had last year has wrecked a number of physical activities and I’ve lost a lot of my upper body strength and fitness. Climbing is completely wrecked and no-go. Golf is a miserable experience both in terms of pain and scoring. Thankfully the cycling and hillwalking is still good but I’m struggling with motivation.

Thought it was worth sharing in case anyone else is having or had similar issues.
		
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I think the physio may, at least in part, be seeing customers. I haven't seen this epidemic of middle aged blokes with frozen shoulder reported on a doctors social media site which discusses all things Covid. 

There have been reports of injectors going a bit deep and hitting the shoulder capsule, the bag that holds the joint fluid for the shoulder. 'Frozen shoulder' is a rather vague term, but conditions of the capsule are usually a large part of them. I would have thought that the injection experience would be noticeably different if the needle hit the capsule, though. Exercise regimes are the mainstay of treatment.

I would be inclined to get a referral to a rheumatologist.


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## Jimaroid (Jun 29, 2022)

Ethan said:



			I would be inclined to get a referral to a rheumatologist.
		
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Thanks for your input and advice, appreciate it, I will see if I can do that.


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## hovis (Jul 4, 2022)

My wife is currently ill with Covid.  Strong positive result.  So I decided to do a test too. Very faint line (very faint) but three tests in a row where all the same. Next day and I'm showing negative.   Surely you can't have covid for one day?   Last time I had it was 6 months ago. 

I know my wife got it from the plane back with her friends (they're all possitve) I last tested negative two days before my wide got home


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## Slime (Jul 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			My wife is currently ill with Covid.  Strong positive result.  So I decided to do a test too. Very faint line (very faint) but three tests in a row where all the same. Next day and I'm showing negative.   Surely you can't have covid for one day?   Last time I had it was 6 months ago.

I know my wife got it from the plane back with her friends (they're all possitve) I last tested negative *two days before my wide got home*

Click to expand...

Big girl, is she?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 4, 2022)

Seems to be spreading rapidly in our area and mask wearing is very low…but not hearing any guidance other than Jenny Harries yesterday telling us to ‘take normal precautions’…whatever these are.  

Speaking to a friend with it earlier (did some shopping for her)…she’s had it over a week…cough has gone but struggling with fatigue, dizziness and stiffness in neck and shoulders.  Lots of staff in her school going off with it…most being of 50+ age group…so the age group who finished their injections about 6months ago…the length of time I understand for which the vaccines are most effective…


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seems to be spreading rapidly in our area and mask wearing is very low…but not hearing any guidance other than Jenny Harries yesterday telling us to ‘take normal precautions’…whatever these are. 

Speaking to a friend with it earlier (did some shopping for her)…she’s had it over a week…cough has gone but struggling with fatigue, dizziness and stiffness in neck and shoulders.  Lots of staff in her school going off with it…most being of 50+ age group…so the age group who finished their injections about 6months ago…the length of time I understand for which the vaccines are most effective…
		
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Do you mean the time vaccines are less effective.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you mean the time vaccines are less effective.
		
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Well yes…meant that about six months is the time for which the vaccines are most effective, after which they become less effective.  So all us over 50s and more so over 60s vaccinated about 6 months ago will now have reducing protection.  And in my friends school, and as for her,  it seems to be over 50s, and 60s especially, who are going down with it.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 5, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well yes…meant that about six months is the time for which the vaccines are most effective, after which they become less effective.  So all us over 50s and more so over 60s vaccinated about 6 months ago will now have reducing protection.  And in my friends school, and as for her,  it seems to be over 50s, and 60s especially, who are going down with it.
		
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SILH, I think the idea of the Vaccine was that it was never going to protect against the Virus. Was it not to help recognise you had the COVID earlier and help fight against it. I think the problem being the new variants of the new Omicron variant from older variants is more transmissible. Unfortunately working in a school is the perfect cooking pot for transferring the Virus. Good that you are there to help a pal. Stay safe me man.


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## Imurg (Jul 9, 2022)

The NHS are back to mandatory mask wearing due to the latest wave that seems to be picking up pace...
It seems a lot of people are testing positive for a lot longer than previous varieties and whilst, seemingly, not as lethal it's making people pretty sick for longer too..
I don't want to say it but....here we go again?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 9, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The NHS are back to mandatory mask wearing due to the latest wave that seems to be picking up pace...
It seems a lot of people are testing positive for a lot longer than previous varieties and whilst, seemingly, not as lethal it's making people pretty sick for longer too..
I don't want to say it but....here we go again?

Click to expand...

Tbh they never stopped being mandatory in hospital. Visit regularly and always have to mask up.

The country has nowhere near recovered from the over reaction to the first pandemic. Hope there is no appetite for a repeat of the ridiculous lengths we went to before.


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## Imurg (Jul 9, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Tbh they never stopped being mandatory in hospital. Visit regularly and always have to mask up.

The country has nowhere near recovered from the over reaction to the first pandemic. Hope there is no appetite for a repeat of the ridiculous lengths we went to before.
		
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The mask mandate was dropped from the NHS a few weeks ago...since been upgraded to frontline staff and now all areas...


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## upsidedown (Jul 9, 2022)

Back from.our hols today and HID tested positive ,suspect I'm not long behind her . This is our first taste of it 😪


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## Dando (Jul 9, 2022)

There’s a lot of people in my firms Bristol office that have tested positive recently


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## AmandaJR (Jul 9, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The NHS are back to mandatory mask wearing due to the latest wave that seems to be picking up pace...
It seems a lot of people are testing positive for a lot longer than previous varieties and whilst, seemingly, not as lethal it's making people pretty sick for longer too..
I don't want to say it but....here we go again?

Click to expand...

Yep. Was at Addenbrookes this week and back to mask wearing. Apart from the American woman who proclaimed she was exempt and proceeded to educate the staff on the government agreeing that masks spread pathogens.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 9, 2022)

Imurg said:



			The mask mandate was dropped from the NHS a few weeks ago...since been upgraded to frontline staff and now all areas...
		
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Really? I was at the Royal Free last Tuesday and you couldn’t get through the door without a mask. Been like that since the beginning. Maybe some hospitals never dropped it?


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## Imurg (Jul 9, 2022)

Fade and Die said:



			Really? I was at the Royal Free last Tuesday and you couldn’t get through the door without a mask. Been like that since the beginning. Maybe some hospitals never dropped it?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe..our trust dropped the masks about a month ago...back on as of Monday....


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## AmandaJR (Jul 9, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Maybe..our trust dropped the masks about a month ago...back on as of Monday....
		
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Similar here. Hinchingbrooke a few weeks ago was no mask but Addenbrookes had signs dated last week of June reinstating them.


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## Wilson (Jul 9, 2022)

My daughter bought it home from school last Friday, I tested positive on Monday and my wife on Tuesday. First time I’ve had it, second time for my wife, I felt pretty terrible on Monday, but thankfully neither of us as bad as the first time my wife caught it, when she was in bed for over a week.

I spoke to a work acquaintance last week, he said I was the 3rd person that day he’d spoken to who had COvid.


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## Ethan (Jul 10, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well yes…meant that about six months is the time for which the vaccines are most effective, after which they become less effective.  So all us over 50s and more so over 60s vaccinated about 6 months ago will now have reducing protection.  And in my friends school, and as for her,  it seems to be over 50s, and 60s especially, who are going down with it.
		
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It takes time to build a complex cumulative immunity, like most of us have against flu. Covid is still a rather young pathogen and our immunity, especially for older people is not deep enough and broad enough. It will get there in time, but more boosters will be needed. The next stage of vaccine development is multi-talent vaccines that cover several different variants or several different structures in the virus. 

In due course, most younger people ought to be fine without boosters unless a nasty variant comes along (and they will), but like flu, older people will be offered an annual booster, possibly a combo of Covid and flu.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 11, 2022)

@Ethan, have you heard anything about this (copied over from the film thread)?



Springveldt said:



			On a more worrying note, a lad I work with told me this morning that his wife works at a hospital in London and they are seeing loads of patients come in with covid but are all testing negative on the lateral flow tests. He was saying that lots in the NHS now think lateral flows aren't working with the new strain. I've had this "man-flu" for a week now and it has all the symptoms of covid except the lateral flows keep coming up negative.
		
Click to expand...


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## Springveldt (Jul 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



@Ethan, have you heard anything about this (copied over from the film thread)?
		
Click to expand...

Don't shoot the messenger. 

As I said, I've had a cough, sore throat, feeling tired/weak, headache, fuzzy head, loss of appetite etc for 8 days now. It's basically all the symptoms of when I had covid a few months ago except a fever (or a least never noticed a fever) and this time lateral flows from last Monday, Wednesday and Friday were all negative. Rest of the family are the same, I even joked on Friday to the wife when it was negative again that maybe lateral flows don't pick up the new strain. Then the lad at work mentioned that to me before I had told him of my symptoms.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



@Ethan, have you heard anything about this (copied over from the film thread)?
		
Click to expand...

Haven't heard that. No mention on my doctors social media Covid forum.

How do they know people have Covid If LFT negative. PCR-positive? 

The two tests measure different things over different time periods. The LFT doesn't turn positive as quickly as PCR, so early cases could be LFT- and PCR+. Symptoms? Increasingly non-specific.

Also, a lot of people do their LFTs badly, not scraping around deep enough in the snout. A few gentle whips half an inch into the nostril won't do it.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 11, 2022)

Wife's company, Pfizer, have re introduced face masks in site ☹️


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

spongebob59 said:



			Wife's company, Pfizer, have re introduced face masks in site ☹️
		
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Oh, there is going to be plenty more of that. Expect many Twitter rants and backbencher tantrums.


----------



## Oddsocks (Jul 11, 2022)

Well it wiped me out again last week, despite three jabs I was all good and had been free since Christmas 2020.

It was definitely worse this time around, prob some weird yoda-Star Wars-galactic strain that hasn’t hit the news yet.

Tested positive Monday, Saturday and this morning.


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## road2ruin (Jul 11, 2022)

Through a combination of school (children), Wimbledon tennis, various summer festivals I think I probably know more people with Covid than not! Fortunately all mild and it's annoying more than anything else. Most are pleased to have it now as it means it'll be less likely that they'll have a decision to make with summer holidays on the horizon. Hoping one us gets it before Saturday as there's a family do that I'd really rather not attend.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			SILH, I think the idea of the Vaccine was that it was never going to protect against the Virus. Was it not to help recognise you had the COVID earlier and help fight against it. I think the problem being the new variants of the new Omicron variant from older variants is more transmissible. Unfortunately working in a school is the perfect cooking pot for transferring the Virus. Good that you are there to help a pal. Stay safe me man.
		
Click to expand...

The vaccine won't stop the little beasties landing on you (infection) but the idea of the vaccine is to give your immunity the weapons to stop that infection becoming illness. That in turns reduces the power of any infection you can transmit. In some people your immunity won't have enough to win the battle conclusively, so you may still get illness but it will usually be much less severe.

The new variants are more transmissible, and their basic potency is not much less than alpha, but the clinical effect is massively reached by the prevalence of vaccination. As immunity were off, that potency will rise.

Over time, people will develop a more complex and effective immunity, like most have against flu, but we aren't there yet. In the meantime, the idea that this is just a cold is dangerous. The cold doesn't reach your liver, kidneys and heart and potentially damage them. Covid does.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 11, 2022)

Ethan said:



			Oh, there is going to be plenty more of that. Expect many Twitter rants and backbencher tantrums.
		
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She was looking forward to the air-conditioning in the office, but seeing as they all hot desk , she decided to WFH.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 11, 2022)

Springveldt said:



			Don't shoot the messenger. 

As I said, I've had a cough, sore throat, feeling tired/weak, headache, fuzzy head, loss of appetite etc for 8 days now. It's basically all the symptoms of when I had covid a few months ago except a fever (or a least never noticed a fever) and this time lateral flows from last Monday, Wednesday and Friday were all negative. Rest of the family are the same, I even joked on Friday to the wife when it was negative again that maybe lateral flows don't pick up the new strain. Then the lad at work mentioned that to me before I had told him of my symptoms.
		
Click to expand...

Not shooting anyone, but @Ethan has very kindly been a source of much useful info during this, wasn't sure if he visited the film thread though


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## Tashyboy (Jul 11, 2022)

Ethan, I have had Covid 3 times. First Two times was transmitted via my son being a class one lorry driver. The first time I was rough. Last two times it was hardly noticeable. Is this a combination of building up immunity, having different boosters or a combination. Come what May I am if the ilk I hope I am building up an immunity for when a real bad variant comes along.


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## Ethan (Jul 11, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan, I have had Covid 3 times. First Two times was transmitted via my son being a class one lorry driver. The first time I was rough. Last two times it was hardly noticeable. Is this a combination of building up immunity, having different boosters or a combination. Come what May I am if the ilk I hope I am building up an immunity for when a real bad variant comes along.
		
Click to expand...

Different people have different levels of response to infection, and whether you get a temp, shivers, feel vaguely sh!t or whether is quite individual. That lot doesn't really correlate with your chance of being really ill, for example dropping your oxygen saturation or developing inflammatory complications. Likewise people have different responses to the vax, some have no symptoms, others feel like they have had a heavy night on the drink. 

You wil have definitely acquired a degree of immunity from each infection, but you may have seen that wane a bit between infections, or you were got by different variants. I would recommend taking the vax offered to you, which will further add to your immunity, and the likelihood that another variant will do you in is probably pretty low. But you might feel a bit crap, that may just be your style of response.


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## fundy (Jul 11, 2022)

Both me and Mrs F been laid low by it recently, in bed for over a week and still not close to 100% after nearly 4 weeks of it now  

Blame squarely laid on the plumber for it, not helped by the fact that he needs to come back and refit the shower tray too!!!!!


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## chellie (Jul 14, 2022)

Had to go into the GP surgery today. Mask wearing back in force including the receptionists who were also behind screens.


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 14, 2022)

chellie said:



			Had to go into the GP surgery today. Mask wearing back in force including the receptionists who were also behind screens.
		
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Back in force?  Never stopped at ours, assuming you could actually get through the doors.


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## chellie (Jul 14, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Back in force?  Never stopped at ours, assuming you could actually get through the doors.
		
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Saw people in there at the beginning of the week with none on. Our chemist works out of it so didn't pay too much attention to signage.


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## Jamesbrown (Jul 14, 2022)

Not necessarily going to catch it from experience as my missus never caught it from me when I had it and I never caught it from her when she had it but a chap sat behind me in a training course tested positive today so every chance of a 5 day holiday minimum sometime soon!


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## IainP (Jul 14, 2022)

According to worldometer, coming up to two weeks since UK has shared any numbers.
Other big European countries reporting sizable case numbers.


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## Imurg (Jul 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			According to worldometer, coming up to two weeks since UK has shared any numbers.
Other big European countries reporting sizable case numbers.
		
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Wouldn't they be meaningless if they did?
The number of people testing must be way down as it's mostly not free and pretty much all rules relaxed so we're "living with it safely"..
I've currently got 2 pupils off with it..no idea when they're coming back...


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## IainP (Jul 14, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Wouldn't they be meaningless if they did?
The number of people testing must be way down as it's mostly not free and pretty much all rules relaxed so we're "living with it safely"..
I've currently got 2 pupils off with it..no idea when they're coming back...
		
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Yeah agree, was just an observation.
Are those other countries acting differently? Should UK do anything different?
I don't know but chat on here, and at work is indicating a lot more of it about


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## Imurg (Jul 14, 2022)

Basing things on how many of my pupils have either had it or got it I'd say it's pretty rampant.
Nowhere near as lethal as before but seems to be making people sicker for longer...


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## D-S (Jul 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yeah agree, was just an observation.
Are those other countries acting differently? Should UK do anything different?
I don't know but chat on here, and at work is indicating a lot more of it about
		
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There are still updated numbers from England on the government dashboard.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
Also there is the weekly ZOE report and all the statisticians on Twitter continue to model and report (we are just coming to a peak of hospital admissions).
All the data is out there.


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## theoneandonly (Jul 14, 2022)

IainP said:



			Yeah agree, was just an observation.
Are those other countries acting differently? Should UK do anything different?
I don't know but chat on here, and at work is indicating a lot more of it about
		
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Anecdotal but I was in Milan last week and then paris. Both cities were as busy as ever and certainly very little mask wearing. Italy still has some rules in place but little notice being taken. I did have to show Vax proof to enter france.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2022)

Imurg said:



			Wouldn't they be meaningless if they did?
The number of people testing must be way down as it's mostly not free and pretty much all rules relaxed so we're "living with it safely"..
I've currently got 2 pupils off with it..no idea when they're coming back...
		
Click to expand...

Don't they base the numbers on weekly random tests carried out by the ONS or something?


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## Ethan (Jul 17, 2022)

SocketRocket said:



			Don't they base the numbers on weekly random tests carried out by the ONS or something?
		
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Yes, it is based on epidemiological sampling. It is more reliable than self-reported which are always biased.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 17, 2022)

put a mask on for the first time in months to go to Princess Margarets in Windsor on Friday - a week earlier there were hardly any wearing them in there and we were not asked to. All change in a week


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## Billysboots (Jul 17, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			put a mask on for the first time in months to go to Princess Margarets in Windsor on Friday - a week earlier there were hardly any wearing them in there and we were not asked to. All change in a week
		
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I’m still quite happy to wear one, and have carried one throughout the pandemic, right up to the present. That may surprise one or two on here 😉


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## Swinglowandslow (Jul 17, 2022)

Billysboots said:



			I’m still quite happy to wear one, and have carried one throughout the pandemic, right up to the present. That may surprise one or two on here 😉
		
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No, being a responsible person, as Ethan has said, regardless of your own position, wearing a mask helps the overall situation I.e. If you had it and didn't know, you wouldn't  so  readily spread it.😀


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## Billysboots (Jul 17, 2022)

Swinglowandslow said:



			No, being a responsible person, as Ethan has said, regardless of your own position, wearing a mask helps the overall situation I.e. If you had it and didn't know, you wouldn't  so  readily spread it.😀
		
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And I’ve been responsible throughout, regardless of my views on the pace at which life was allowed to return to something approaching normality.


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## Ethan (Jul 21, 2022)

Sky News piece on diabetes after Covid

Another study showing that organ damage can occur after Covid, even mild cases. Covid is a systemic (whole body) inflammatory condition, and there is good evidence of possible damage in various organ systems. There have been previous reports of increased rates of diabetes in kids exposed, and separately of non-occlusive (no arterial blockage) coronary damage.

It isn't a cold. Try not to catch it, at least until immunity is much more sophisticated.


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## Robster59 (Aug 15, 2022)

Well, having gone through the whole pandemic, being very careful, and neither myself or my missus getting Covid, last night we both felt knackered, and I was up most of the night, hot, restless, sore, headache, blocked nose.  I did a lateral flow test this morning and I have tested positive for Covid.  Considering I was going to do some work at a pharma company this week, that is now down the swanny.


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## chellie (Aug 18, 2022)

I tested positive last Tuesday. I have had two jabs and the booster. I still feel like crap. I am so fatigued  Just about managing to cook easy meals and that's it. HID has it as well but he just feels like he's got a really, really bad cold. We are both still testing positive as well. He only tested positive six days after me.


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## AmandaJR (Aug 18, 2022)

chellie said:



			I tested positive last Tuesday. I have had two jabs and the booster. I still feel like crap. I am so fatigued  Just about managing to cook easy meals and that's it. HID has it as well but he just feels like he's got a really, really bad cold. We are both still testing positive as well. He only tested positive six days after me.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that. Hope you're both fully recovered soon.


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## chellie (Aug 18, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Sorry to hear that. Hope you're both fully recovered soon.
		
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Thanks Amanda


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## chellie (Aug 20, 2022)

Finally tested negative today.  Carried on testing out of curiosity after a week. Still feel like carp but not as bad as I have done.


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## D-S (Aug 20, 2022)

chellie said:



			Finally tested negative today.  Carried on testing out of curiosity after a week. Still feel like carp but not as bad as I have done.
		
Click to expand...

Is feeling like a fish one of the symptoms of a new variant?


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## RRidges (Aug 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			Is feeling like a fish one of the symptoms of a new variant?
		
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Yes! Along with coordination issues.


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## theoneandonly (Oct 12, 2022)

I thought covid was over but just got given a booster jab.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 12, 2022)

It’s not over, it’s now one of the pantheon of diseases and viruses that we require protection from.
Like measles.

The continued jabs will hopefully provide a level of protection that keeps it at a level similar to seasonal flu.

Flu kills thousands each year, mostly old and frail, Covid will do the same 

Fact of life now


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## theoneandonly (Oct 12, 2022)

Yah they were doing flu too so I said may as well have that too 😂


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## Tashyboy (Oct 12, 2022)

Me and Missis T had our fourth jabs last week. Me I was fine knocked Missis T off her feet for a couple of days though. That said it’s better than getting COVID. 👍


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			I thought covid was over but just got given a booster jab.
		
Click to expand...

I’m still volunteering on the jab line along with HID, supprised at the lack of take up and the attitude of many at the club about not being bothered with the booster.
In N Devon we went from 0 patient in the Covid ward to 17 in a week and it is still rising.


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## theoneandonly (Oct 13, 2022)

Old Skier said:



			I’m still volunteering on the jab line along with HID, supprised at the lack of take up and the attitude of many at the club about not being bothered with the booster.
In N Devon we went from 0 patient in the Covid ward to 17 in a week and it is still rising.
		
Click to expand...

It was brisk traffic where I went.


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## Golfmmad (Oct 13, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			It was brisk traffic where I went.
		
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Had mine last Saturday and was quite busy and very well organised.


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## IanM (Oct 13, 2022)

We caught covid on the plane back from Portugal/or thereabouts a couple of weeks ago.  Managed to avoid the blooming thing fir two and a bit years, then first trip away...


Several days of being really poorly, then ok.... thank goodness for the vaccine!


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## RichA (Oct 14, 2022)

Jab 4 this morning. Never even felt the first 3 but today felt like the needle jabbed straight into a nerve and made me jump a little. It's a price I'm willing to pay.
Nearly 3 years in and neither my wife, a secondary school teacher, or I, commuting into London and working in busy offices throughout, have knowingly had COVID yet.
I think we've been extraordinarily lucky.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 14, 2022)

RichA said:



			Jab 4 this morning. Never even felt the first 3 but today felt like the needle jabbed straight into a nerve and made me jump a little. It's a price I'm willing to pay.
Nearly 3 years in and neither my wife, a secondary school teacher, or I, commuting into London and working in busy offices throughout, have knowingly had COVID yet.
I think we've been extraordinarily lucky.
		
Click to expand...

Same here re Jab four, Lordy Lordy I felt it.


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## IainP (Oct 14, 2022)

Jab 4 for me and jab 6 for the good lady this morning. Was busy but well organised. Journey was way better after the burst water main road chaos of last week resulting in missed appointment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2022)

Got mine and my Mrs booked for end of the month.


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## drdel (Oct 14, 2022)

Covid jab in right arm and flu into the left, both arms a bit stiff and stopped me reaching my wallet - honest!


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## backwoodsman (Oct 14, 2022)

Had my 4th jab about a month ago. Bit of a surprise to have been offered it then, but who's complaining. No adverse effects yet again.  Hopefully it will do the same as previous jabs and keep the covid away. Now finds some wood to touch for luck ...


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## Voyager EMH (Oct 30, 2022)

We had our 4th jab on Thurs 20th and flu jab at same time. It was Mrs V's birthday!
Felt like crap all day the next day, but woke up Saturday feeling fine and played a decent enough 18 holes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2022)

Booster and flu today. No immediate side effects whatsoever. Mrs cancelled hers as she’s feeling very ‘off colour’ at the moment.


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## Beedee (Nov 8, 2022)

After over 2 1/2 years of living like a hermit, Covid has finally caught me.  Feel like a pile of poo right now.  Dread to think what it would be like without all my jabs.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 8, 2022)

Had my Covid booster three weeks ago. Arm felt like I'd been kicked in it by a mule but nothing else.

Had a Flu jab last week and no arm pain at all but felt awful for a few days, had to walk of the golf course after15 holes 🙁


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## drdel (Nov 8, 2022)

I see several of the over 65s have been given the wrong flu jab this year.

Hopefully the same mistake hasn't occurred with the COVID booster!


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## Smiffy (Nov 23, 2022)

Missus tested positive on Monday, I've joined her today....
No wonder I played crap on Sunday
😢😢😢😢😢


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 23, 2022)

Mrs BiM & I had our Covid boosters today; neither of us felt the injection going in at all.  I had the Flu jab as well, that one I did feel.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 23, 2022)

Blue in Munich said:



			Mrs BiM & I had our Covid boosters today; neither of us felt the injection going in at all.  I had the Flu jab as well, that one I did feel. 

Click to expand...

It’s only a little prick……………👍


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## drdel (Nov 23, 2022)

It seems to be kicking off in China again....!


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## Tashyboy (Nov 24, 2022)

drdel said:



			It seems to be kicking off in China again....!
		
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Hmm, I read that this morning. A record high of 30 thousand. Apparently they are not impressed watching the World Cup. They are watching massed crowds at venues and they are under restrictions.


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## PNWokingham (Nov 24, 2022)

PhilTheFragger said:



			It’s only a little prick……………👍
		
Click to expand...

plenty of them on here!


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## Tashyboy (Nov 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			plenty of them on here![/QUOTE
Plenty of littles 🤔☹️😉
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Nov 24, 2022)

PNWokingham said:



			plenty of them on here!
		
Click to expand...

Takes one......  😄


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## Smiffy (Nov 25, 2022)

Third day in and feeling rough, rough rough. I've had 'flu once before, (as opposed to a bad cold), and it feels like that but worse, (if possible).
Ache all over, blocked nose, fever, headache, sore throat.
Luckily I have not been afflicted with the awful coughing fits that my wife has had, that's the bit I'm really worried about. After my lung infection of earlier in the year I'm concerned....


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## Tashyboy (Nov 25, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Third day in and feeling rough, rough rough. I've had 'flu once before, (as opposed to a bad cold), and it feels like that but worse, (if possible).
Ache all over, blocked nose, fever, headache, sore throat.
Luckily I have not been afflicted with the awful coughing fits that my wife has had, that's the bit I'm really worried about. After my lung infection of earlier in the year I'm concerned....
		
Click to expand...

Get well soon smiffy. Bit more time to look for your glasses. ☹️👍


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## AmandaJR (Nov 25, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Third day in and feeling rough, rough rough. I've had 'flu once before, (as opposed to a bad cold), and it feels like that but worse, (if possible).
Ache all over, blocked nose, fever, headache, sore throat.
Luckily I have not been afflicted with the awful coughing fits that my wife has had, that's the bit I'm really worried about. After my lung infection of earlier in the year I'm concerned....
		
Click to expand...

Hope you're both feeling better soon. Take care.


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## theoneandonly (Nov 25, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Third day in and feeling rough, rough rough. I've had 'flu once before, (as opposed to a bad cold), and it feels like that but worse, (if possible).
Ache all over, blocked nose, fever, headache, sore throat.
Luckily I have not been afflicted with the awful coughing fits that my wife has had, that's the bit I'm really worried about. After my lung infection of earlier in the year I'm concerned....
		
Click to expand...

You still off the fags?


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## Smiffy (Nov 25, 2022)

theoneandonly said:



			You still off the fags?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
Not had one now for just under 6 months
👍👍👍


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## Smiffy (Nov 28, 2022)

6 days since I tested positive, and feeling much, much better. Sore throat gone, nowhere near as achey, just a bit of a bunged up nose and still feeling a little light headed. Hopefully be ready to go back to work within a couple of days. Fingers crossed


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## Tashyboy (Nov 28, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			6 days since I tested positive, and feeling much, much better. Sore throat gone, nowhere near as achey, just a bit of a bunged up nose and still feeling a little light headed. Hopefully be ready to go back to work within a couple of days. Fingers crossed
		
Click to expand...

The thing I found re COVID, at times god it takes it out of you. The energy was just sapped. Felt like the body had been in a real battle. Take yer time smiffy me man


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## Smiffy (Nov 28, 2022)

Tashyboy said:



			The thing I found re COVID, at times god it takes it out of you. The energy was just sapped. Felt like the body had been in a real battle. Take yer time smiffy me man
		
Click to expand...

I will Tash. I felt really tired playing in a match last Sunday, two days before I tested positive. I can only assume it was on it's way. Felt like I was walking through treacle...😱😱😱😱


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## Tashyboy (Nov 28, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			I will Tash. I felt really tired playing in a match last Sunday, two days before I tested positive. I can only assume it was on it's way. Felt like I was walking through treacle...😱😱😱😱
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunately having a lad as a class one lorry driver, he brought COVID home twice. At Christmas 😖. Both times I would just drop off to sleep. I was knackered. Missis T said “ we would get up and check to see if you was still breathing”. 😳


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## Smiffy (Nov 28, 2022)

I've just been a lazy git and been curled up on the sofa with a quilt over me. Have done absolutely fark hall.


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## Smiffy (Nov 29, 2022)

Yay!! Tested a clear negative this morning. Will check again early tomorrow and if all clear I'll be back to work......👍👍👍🐷


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## bobmac (Nov 29, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Yay!! Tested a clear negative this morning. Will check again early tomorrow and if all clear I'll be back to work......👍👍👍🐷
		
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Good news


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## Newtonuti (Nov 29, 2022)

Smiffy said:



			Yay!! Tested a clear negative this morning. Will check again early tomorrow and if all clear I'll be back to work......👍👍👍🐷
		
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Still take it easy for a week or so bud, took me a couple of weeks to get back to 100%.


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## Smiffy (Dec 1, 2022)

Went back to work yesterday, all seems well.
Wife still testing positive and has been told to stay off work "until at least Monday"....


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## need_my_wedge (Dec 1, 2022)

Flu jab Monday evening, 4th Covid booster yesterday morning. Bad night last night and feeling mucky today, along with two sore arms. Didn't really feel the flu jab but knew all about the Covid one...


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## spongebob59 (Dec 8, 2022)

Just reading a few snippets from the Cocks diarys.
Lots of things happened that should not have. 😡


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## IainP (Dec 28, 2022)

Oh well, after all this time have just returned my first +ve test ☹.  Fairly large Chrimbo gathering, thought a cold was doing the rounds. Two more +ve tests in family already.


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